5,827 Matching Annotations
  1. Oct 2025
    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The study addresses how faces and bodies are integrated in two STS face areas revealed by fMRI in the primate brain. It builds upon recordings and analysis of the responses of large populations of neurons to three sets of images, that vary face and body positions. These sets allowed the authors to thoroughly investigate invariance to position on the screen (MC HC), to pose (P1 P2), to rotation (0 45 90 135 180 225 270 315), to inversion, to possible and impossible postures (all vs straight), to the presentation of head and body together or in isolation. By analyzing neuronal responses, they found that different neurons showed preferences for body orientation, head orientation, or the interaction between the two. By using a linear support vector machine classifier, they show that the neuronal population can decode head-body angle presented across orientations, in the anterior aSTS patch (but not middle mSTS patch), except for mirror orientation.

      Strengths:

      These results extend prior work on the role of Anterior STS fundus face area in face-body integration and its invariance to mirror symmetry, with a rigorous set of stimuli revealing the workings of these neuronal populations in processing individuals as a whole, in an important series of carefully designed conditions.

      Minor issues and questions that could be addressed by the authors:

      (1) Methods. While monkeys certainly infer/recognize that individual pictures refer to the same pose with varying orientations based on prior studies (Wang et al.), I am wondering whether in this study monkeys saw a full rotation of each of the monkey poses as a video before seeing the individual pictures of the different orientations, during recordings.

      The monkeys had not been exposed to videos of a rotating monkey pose before the recordings. However, they were reared and housed with other monkeys, providing them with ample experience of monkey poses from different viewpoints.

      (2) Experiment 1. The authors mention that neurons are preselected as face-selective, body-selective, or both-selective. Do the Monkey Sum Index and ANOVA main effects change per Neuron type?

      We have performed a new analysis to assess whether the Monkey Sum Index is related to the response strength for the face versus the body as measured in the Selectivity Test of Experiment 1. To do this we selected face- and body-category selective neurons, as well as neurons responding selectively to both faces and bodies. First, we selected those neurons that responded significantly to either faces, bodies, or the two control object categories, using a split-plot ANOVA for these 40 stimuli. From those neurons, we selected face-selective ones having at least a twofold larger mean net response to faces compared to bodies (faces > 2 * bodies) and the control objects for faces (faces  > 2* objects). Similarly, a body-selective neuron was defined by a twofold larger mean net response to bodies compared to faces and the control objects for bodies. A body-and-face selective neuron was defined as having a twofold larger net response to the faces compared to their control objects, and to bodies compared to their control objects, with the ratio between mean response to bodies and faces being less than twofold. Then, we compared the distribution of the Monkey Sum Index (MSI) for each region (aSTS; mSTS), pose (P1, P2), and centering (head- (HC) or monkey-centered (MC)) condition. Too few body-and-face selective neurons were present in each combination of region, pose, and centering (a maximum of 7) to allow a comparison of their MSI distribution with the other neuron types. The Figure below shows the distribution of the MSI for the different orientation-neuron combinations for the body- and face-selective neurons (same format as in Figure 3a, main text). The number of body-selective neurons, according to the employed criteria, varied from 21 to 29, whereas the number of face-selective neurons ranged from 14 to 24 (pooled across monkeys). The data of the two subjects are shown in a different color and the number of cases for each subject is indicated (n1: number of cases for M1; n2: number of cases for M2). The arrows indicate the medians for the data pooled across the monkey subjects. For the MC condition, the MSI tended to be more negative (i.e. relatively less response to the monkey compared to the sum of the body and face responses) for the face compared to the body cells, but this was significant only for mSTS and P1 (p = 0.043; Wilcoxon rank sum test; tested after averaging the indices per neuron to avoid dependence of indices within a neuron). No consistent, nor significant tendencies were observed for the HC stimuli. This absence of a consistent relationship between MSI and face- versus body-selectivity is in line with the absence of a correlation between the MSI and face- versus body-selectivity using natural images of monkeys in a previous study (Zafirova Y, Bognár A, Vogels R. Configuration-sensitive face-body interactions in primate visual cortex. Prog Neurobiol. 2024 Jan;232:102545).

      We did not perform a similar analysis for the main effects of the two-way ANOVA because the very large majority of neurons showed a significant effect of body orientation and thus no meaningful difference between the two neuron types can be expected.

      Author response image 1.

      (3) I might have missed this information, but the correlation between P1 and P2 seems to not be tested although they carry similar behavioral relevance in terms of where attention is allocated and where the body is facing for each given head-body orientation.

      Indeed, we did not compute this correlation between the responses to the sitting (P1) and standing (P2) pose avatar images. However, as pointed out by the reviewer, one might expect such correlations because of the same head orientations and body-facing directions. Thus, we computed the correlation between the 64 head-body orientation conditions of P1 and P2 for those neurons that were tested with both poses and showed a response for both poses (Split-plot ANOVA). This was performed for the Head-Centered and Monkey-Centered tests of Experiment 1 for each monkey and region. Note that not all neurons were tested with both poses (because of failure to maintain isolation of the single unit in both tests or the monkey stopped working) and not all neurons that were recorded in both tests showed a significant response for both poses, which is not unexpected since these neurons can be pose selective. The distribution of the Pearson correlation coefficients of the neurons with a significant response in both tests is shown in Figure S1. The median correlation coefficient was significantly larger than zero for each region, monkey, and centering condition (outcome of Wilcoxon tests, testing whether the median was different from zero (p1 = p-value for M1; p2: p-value for M2) in Figure), indicating that the effect of head and/or body orientation generalizes across pose. We have noted this now in the Results (page 12) and added the Figure (New Figure S1) in the Suppl. Material.

      (4) Is the invariance for position HC-MC larger in aSTS neurons compared to mSTS neurons, as could be expected from their larger receptive fields?

      Yes, the position tolerance of the interaction of body and head orientation was significantly larger for aSTS compared to mSTS neurons, as we described on pages 11 and 12 of the Results. This is in line with larger receptive fields in aSTS than in mSTS. However, we did not plot receptive fields in the present study.

      (5) L492 "The body-inversion effect likely results from greater exposure to upright than inverted bodies during development". Monkeys display more hanging upside-down behavior than humans, however, does the head appear more tilted in these natural configurations?

      Indeed, infant monkeys do spend some time hanging upside down from their mother's belly. While we lack quantitative data on this behavior, casual observations suggest that even young monkeys spend more time upright. The tilt of the head while hanging upside down can vary, just as it does in standing or sitting monkeys (as when they search for food or orient to other individuals). To our knowledge, no quantitative data exist on the frequency of head tilts in upright versus upside-down monkeys. Therefore, we refrain from further speculation on this interesting point, which warrants more attention.

      (6) Methods in Experiment 1. SVM. How many neurons are sufficient to decode the orientation?

      The number of neurons that are needed to decode the head-body orientation angle depends on which neurons are included, as we show in a novel analysis of the data of Experiment 1. We employed a neuron-dropping analysis, similar to Chiang et al. (Chiang FK, Wallis JD, Rich EL. Cognitive strategies shift information from single neurons to populations in prefrontal cortex. Neuron. 2022 Feb 16;110(4):709-721) to assess the positive (or negative) contribution of each neuron to the decoding performance. We performed cross-validated linear SVM decoding N times, each time leaving out a different neuron (using N-1 neurons; 2000 resamplings of pseudo-population vectors). We then ranked decoding accuracies from highest to lowest, identifying the ‘worst’ (rank 1) to ‘best’ (rank N) neurons. Next, we conducted N decodings, incrementally increasing the number of included neurons from 1 to N, starting with the worst-ranked neuron (rank 1) and sequentially adding the next (rank 2, rank 3, etc.). This analysis focused on zero versus straight angle decoding in the aSTS, as it yielded the highest accuracy. We applied it when training on MC and testing on HC for each pose. Plotting accuracy as a function of the number of included neurons suggested that less than half contributed positively to decoding. We show also the ten “best” neurons for each centering condition and pose. These have a variety of tuning patterns for head and body orientation suggesting that the decoding of head-body orientation angle depends on a population code. Notably, the best-ranked (rank N) neuron alone achieved above-chance accuracy. We have added this interesting and novel result to the Results (page 16) and Suppl. Material (new Figure S3).

      (7) Figure 3D 3E. Could the authors please indicate for each of these neurons whether they show a main effect of face, body, or interaction, as well as their median corrected correlation to get a flavor of these numbers for these examples?

      We have indicated these now in Figure 3.

      (8) Methods and Figure 1A. It could be informative to precise whether the recordings are carried in the lateral part of the STS or in the fundus of the STS both for aSTS and mSTS for comparison to other studies that are using these distinctions (AF, AL, MF, ML).

      In experiment 1, the recording locations were not as medial as the fundus. For experiments 2 and 3, the ventral part of the fundus was included, as described in the Methods. We have added this to the Methods now (page 31).

      Wang, G., Obama, S., Yamashita, W. et al. Prior experience of rotation is not required for recognizing objects seen from different angles. Nat Neurosci 8, 1768-1775 (2005). https://doi-org.insb.bib.cnrs.fr/10.1038/nn1600

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This paper investigates the neuronal encoding of the relationship between head and body orientations in the brain. Specifically, the authors focus on the angular relationship between the head and body by employing virtual avatars. Neuronal responses were recorded electrophysiologically from two fMRI-defined areas in the superior temporal sulcus and analyzed using decoding methods. They found that: (1) anterior STS neurons encode head-body angle configurations; (2) these neurons distinguish aligned and opposite head-body configurations effectively, whereas mirror-symmetric configurations are more difficult to differentiate; and (3) an upside-down inversion diminishes the encoding of head-body angles. These findings advance our understanding of how visual perception of individuals is mediated, providing a fundamental clue as to how the primate brain processes the relationship between head and body - a process that is crucial for social communication.

      Strengths:

      The paper is clearly written, and the experimental design is thoughtfully constructed and detailed. The use of electrophysiological recordings from fMRI-defined areas elucidated the mechanism of head-body angle encoding at the level of local neuronal populations. Multiple experiments, control conditions, and detailed analyses thoroughly examined various factors that could affect the decoding results. The decoding methods effectively and consistently revealed the encoding of head-body angles in the anterior STS neurons. Consequently, this study offers valuable insights into the neuronal mechanisms underlying our capacity to integrate head and body cues for social cognition-a topic that is likely to captivate readers in this field.

      Weaknesses:

      I did not identify any major weaknesses in this paper; I only have a few minor comments and suggestions to enhance clarity and further strengthen the manuscript, as detailed in the Private Recommendations section.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Zafirova et al. investigated the interaction of head and body orientation in the macaque superior temporal sulcus (STS). Combining fMRI and electrophysiology, they recorded responses of visual neurons to a monkey avatar with varying head and body orientations. They found that STS neurons integrate head and body information in a nonlinear way, showing selectivity for specific combinations of head-body orientations. Head-body configuration angles can be reliably decoded, particularly for neurons in the anterior STS. Furthermore, body inversion resulted in reduced decoding of head-body configuration angles. Compared to previous work that examined face or body alone, this study demonstrates how head and body information are integrated to compute a socially meaningful signal.

      Strengths:

      This work presents an elegant design of visual stimuli, with a monkey avatar of varying head and body orientations, making the analysis and interpretation straightforward. Together with several control experiments, the authors systematically investigated different aspects of head-body integration in the macaque STS. The results and analyses of the paper are mostly convincing.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Using ANOVA, the authors demonstrate the existence of nonlinear interactions between head and body orientations. While this is a conventional way of identifying nonlinear interactions, it does not specify the exact type of the interaction. Although the computation of the head-body configuration angle requires some nonlinearity, it's unclear whether these interactions actually contribute. Figure 3 shows some example neurons, but a more detailed analysis is needed to reveal the diversity of the interactions. One suggestion would be to examine the relationship between the presence of an interaction and the neural encoding of the configuration angle.

      This is an excellent suggestion. To do this, one needs to identify the neurons that contribute to the decoding of head-body orientation angles. For that, we employed a neuron-dropping analysis, similar to Chiang et al. (Chiang FK, Wallis JD, Rich EL. Cognitive strategies shift information from single neurons to populations in prefrontal cortex. Neuron. 2022 Feb 16;110(4):709-721.) to assess the positive (or negative) contribution of each neuron to the decoding performance. We performed cross-validated linear SVM decoding N times, each time leaving out a different neuron (using N-1 neurons; 2000 resamplings of pseudo-population vectors). We then ranked decoding accuracies from highest to lowest, identifying the ‘worst’ (rank 1) to ‘best’ (rank N) neurons. Next, we conducted N decodings, incrementally increasing the number of included neurons from 1 to N, starting with the worst-ranked neuron (rank 1) and sequentially adding the next (rank 2, rank 3, etc.). This analysis focused on zero versus straight angle decoding in the aSTS, as it yielded the highest accuracy. We applied it when training on MC and testing on HC for each pose. Plotting accuracy as a function of the number of included neurons suggested that less than half contributed positively to decoding (see Figure S3). We examined the tuning for head and body orientation of the 10 “best” neurons (Figure S3). For half or more of those the two-way ANOVA showed a significant interaction. These are indicated by the red color in the Figure. They showed a variety of tuning patterns for head and body orientation, suggesting that the decoding of the head-body orientation angle results from a combination of neurons with different tuning profiles. Based on a suggestion from reviewer 2, we performed for each neuron of experiment 1 a one-way ANOVA with as factor head-body orientation angle. To do that, we combined all 64 trials that had the same head-body orientation angle. The percentage of neurons (required to be responsive in the tested condition) for which this one-way ANOVA was significant was low but larger than the expected 5% (Type 1 error), with a median of 16.5% (range: 3 to 23%) in aSTS and 8% for mSTS (range: 0-19%). However, a higher percentage of the 10 best neurons for each pose (indicated by the star) showed a significant one-way ANOVA for angle (for P1, MC: 50% (95% confidence interval (CI): 19% – 81%); P1, HC: 70% (CI: 35% - 93%); P2, MC: 70% (CI: 35% – 93%); P2: HC: 50% (CI: 19%-81%)). These percentages were significantly higher than expected for a random sample from the population of neurons for each pose-centering combination (expected percentages listed in the same order as above: 16%, 13%, 16%, and 10%; all outside CI). Thus, for at least half of the “best” neurons, the response differed significantly among the head-orientation angles at the single neuron level. Nonetheless, the tuning profiles were diverse, suggesting a populationl code for head-body orientation angle. We have added this interesting and novel result to the Results (page 16) and Suppl. Material (Figure S3).

      (2) Figure 4 of the paper shows a better decoding of the configuration angle in the anterior STS than in the middle STS. This is an interesting result, suggesting a transformation in the neural representation between these two areas. However, some control analyses are needed to further elucidate the nature of this transformation. For example, what about the decoding of head and body orientations - dose absolute orientation information decrease along the hierarchy, accompanying the increase in configuration information?

      We have performed now two additional analyses, one in which we decoded the orientation of the head and another one in which we decoded the orientation of the body. We employed the responses to the avatar of experiment 1, using the same sample of neurons of which we decoded the head-body orientation angle. To decode the head orientation, the trials with identical head orientation, irrespective of their body orientation, were given the same label. For this, we employed only responses in the head-centered condition. To decode the body orientation, the trials with identical body orientation, irrespective of their head orientation, had the same label, and we employed only responses in the body-centered condition. The decoding was performed separately for each pose (P1 and P2) and region. We decoded either the responses of 20 neurons (10 randomly sampled from each monkey for each of the 1000 resamplings), 40 neurons (20 randomly sampled per monkey), or 60 neurons (30 neurons per monkey) since the sample of 60 neurons yielded close to ceiling performance for the body orientation decoding. For each pose, the body orientation decoding was worse for aSTS than for mSTS, although this difference reached significance only for P1 and for the 40 neurons sample of P2 (p < 0.025; two-tailed test; same procedure as employed for testing the significance of the decoding of whole-body orientation for upright versus inverted avatars (Experiment 3))). Face orientation decoding was significantly worse for aSTS compared to mSTS. These results are in line with the previously reported decreased decoding of face orientation in the anterior compared to mid-STS face patches (Meyers EM, Borzello M, Freiwald WA, Tsao D. Intelligent information loss: the coding of facial identity, head pose, and non-face information in the macaque face patch system. J Neurosci. 2015 May 6;35(18):7069-81), and decreased decoding of body orientation in anterior compared to mid-STS body patches (Kumar S, Popivanov ID, Vogels R. Transformation of Visual Representations Across Ventral Stream Body-selective Patches. Cereb Cortex. 2019 Jan 1;29(1):215-229). As mentioned by the reviewer, this contrasts with the decoding of the head-body orientation angle, which increases when moving more anteriorly. We mention this finding now in the Discussion (page 27) and present the new Figure S10 in the Suppl. Material.    

      (3) While this work has characterized the neural integration of head and body information in detail, it's unclear how the neural representation relates to the animal's perception. Behavioural experiments using the same set of stimuli could help address this question, but I agree that these additional experiments may be beyond the scope of the current paper. I think the authors should at least discuss the potential outcomes of such experiments, which can be tested in future studies.

      Unfortunately, we do not have behavioral data. One prediction would be that the discrimination of head-body orientation angle, irrespective of the viewpoint of the avatar, would be more accurate for zero versus straight angles compared to the right versus left angles. We have added this to the Discussion (page 28).

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) P22 L373. It should read Figure S5C instead of S4C.

      Thanks; corrected.

      (2) Figure 7B. All inverted decoding accuracies, although significantly lower than upright decoding accuracies, appear significantly above baseline. Should the title be amended accordingly?

      Thanks for pointing this out. To avoid future misunderstanding we have changed the title to:

      “Integration of head and body orientations in the macaque superior temporal sulcus is stronger for upright bodies”

      (3) Discussion L432-33. "with some neurons being tuned to a particular orientation of both the head and the body". Wouldn't that be visible as a diagonal profile on the normalized net responses in Fig 3D? Or can the Anova evidence such a tuning?

      We meant to say that some neurons were tuned to a particular combination of head and body orientation, like the third aSTS example neuron shown in Figure 3D. We have corrected the sentence.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Major comment:

      This paper effectively demonstrates that the angular relationship between the head and body can be decoded from population responses in the anterior STS. In other words, these neurons encode information about the head-body angle. However, how exactly do these neurons encode this information? Given that the study employed electrophysiological recordings from a local population of neurons, it might be possible to provide additional data on the response patterns of individual neurons to shed light on the underlying encoding mechanisms.

      Although the paper already presents example response patterns (Figures 3D, E) and shows that STS neurons encode interactions between head and body orientations (Figure 3B), it remains unclear whether the angle difference between the head and body has a systematic effect on neuronal responses. For instance, a description of whether some neurons preferentially encode specific head-body angle differences (e.g., a "45-degree angle neuron"), or additional population analyses such as a one-way ANOVA with angle difference as the main effect (or two-way ANOVA with angle difference as one of the main effect), would be very informative. Such data could offer valuable insights into how individual neurons contribute to the encoding of head-body angle differences-a detail that may also be reflected in the decoding results. Alternatively, it is possible that the encoding of head-body angle is inherently complex and only discernible via decoding methods applied to population activity. Either scenario would provide interesting and useful information to the field.

      We have performed two additional analyses which are relevant to this comment. First, we attempted to relate the tuning for body and head orientation with the decoding of the head-body orientation angle. To do this, one needs to identify the neurons that contribute to the decoding of head-body orientation angles. For that, we employed a neuron-dropping analysis, similar to Chiang et al. (Chiang FK, Wallis JD, Rich EL. Cognitive strategies shift information from single neurons to populations in prefrontal cortex. Neuron. 2022 Feb 16;110(4):709-721.) to assess the positive (or negative) contribution of each neuron to the decoding performance. We performed cross-validated linear SVM decoding N times, each time leaving out a different neuron (using N-1 neurons; 2000 resamplings of pseudo-population vectors). We then ranked decoding accuracies from highest to lowest, identifying the ‘worst’ (rank 1) to ‘best’ (rank N) neurons. Next, we conducted N decodings, incrementally increasing the number of included neurons from 1 to N, starting with the worst-ranked neuron (rank 1) and sequentially adding the next (rank 2, rank 3, etc.). This analysis focused on zero versus straight angle decoding in the aSTS, as it yielded the highest accuracy. We applied it when training on MC and testing on HC for each pose. Plotting accuracy as a function of the number of included neurons suggested that less than half contributed positively to decoding (see Figure S3). We examined the tuning for head and body orientation of the 10 “best” neurons (Figure S3). For half or more of those the two-way ANOVA showed a significant interaction. These are indicated by the red color in the Figure. They showed a variety of tuning patterns for head and body orientation, suggesting that the decoding of the head-body orientation angle results from a combination of neurons with different tuning profiles.

      Second, we have followed the suggestion of the reviewer to perform for each neuron of experiment 1 a one-way ANOVA with as factor head-body orientation angle. To do that, we combined all 64 trials that had the same head-body orientation angle. The percentage of neurons (required to be responsive in the tested condition) for which this one-way ANOVA was significant is shown in the Tables below for each region, separately for each pose (P1, P2), centering condition (MC = monkey-centered; HC = head-centered) and monkey subject (M1, M2). The percentages were low but larger than the expected 5% (Type 1 error), with a median of 16.5% (range: 3 to 23%) in aSTS and 8% for mSTS (range: 0-19%).

      Author response table 1.

      Interestingly, a higher percentage of the 10 best neurons for each pose (indicated by the star in the Figure above) showed a significant one-way ANOVA for angle (for P1, MC: 50% (95% confidence interval (CI): 19% – 81%); P1, HC: 70% (CI: 35% - 93%); P2, MC: 70% (CI: 35% – 93%); P2: HC: 50% (CI: 19%-81%)). These percentages were significantly higher than expected for a random sample from the population of neurons for each pose-centering combination (expected percentages listed in the same order as above: 16%, 13%, 16%, and 10%; all outside CI). Thus, for at least half of the “best” neurons, the response differed significantly among the head-orientation angles at the single neuron level. Nonetheless, the tuning profiles were quite diverse, suggesting population coding of head-body orientation angle. We have added this interesting and novel result to the Results (page 16) and Suppl. Material (Figure S3).    

      Minor comments:

      (1) Figure 4A, Fourth Row Example (Zero Angle vs. Straight Angle, Bottom of the P2 Examples): The order of the example stimuli might be incorrect- the 0{degree sign} head with 180{degree sign} body stimulus (leftmost) might be swapped with the 180{degree sign} head with 0{degree sign} body stimulus (5th from the left). While this ordering may be acceptable, please double-check whether it reflects the authors' intended arrangement.

      We have changed the order of the two stimuli in Figure 4A, following the suggestion of the reviewer.

      (2) Page 12, Lines 192-194: The text states, "Interestingly, some neurons (e.g. Figure 3D) were tuned to a particular combination of a head and body irrespective of centering." However, Figure 3D displays data for a total of 10 neurons. Could you please specify which of these neurons are being referred to in this context?

      The wording was not optimal. We meant to say that some neurons were tuned to a particular combination of head and body orientation, like the third aSTS example neuron of Figure 3D. We have rephrased the sentence and clarified which example neuron we referred to.

      (3) Page 28, Lines 470-471: The text states, "We observed no difference in response strength between anatomically possible and impossible configurations." Please clarify which data were compared for response strength, as I could not locate the corresponding analyses.

      The anatomically possible and impossible configurations differ in the head-body orientation angle. However, as we reported before in the Results, there was no effect of head-body orientation angle on mean response strength across poses (Friedman ANOVA; all p-values for both poses and centerings > 0.1). We have clarified this now in the Discussion (page 28).

      (4) Pages 40-43, Decoding Analyses: In experiments 2 and 3, were the decoding analyses performed on simultaneously recorded neurons? If so, such analyses might leverage trial-by-trial correlations and thus avoid confounds from trial-to-trial variability. In contrast, experiment 1, which used single-shank electrodes, would lack this temporal information. Please clarify how trial numbers were assigned to neurons in each experiment and how this assignment may have influenced the decoding performance.

      For the decoding analyses of experiments 2 and 3, we combined data from different daily penetrations, with only units from the same penetration being recorded simultaneously. In the decoding analyses of each experiment, the trials were assigned randomly to the pseudo-population vectors, shuffling on each resampling the trial order per neuron. This shuffling abolishes noise correlations in the analysis of each experiment.

      (5) Page 41, Lines 792-802: The authors state that "To assess the significance of the differences in classification scores between pairs of angles ... we computed the difference in classification score between the two pairs for each resampling and the percentile of 0 difference corresponded to the p-value." In a two-sided test under the null hypothesis of no difference between the distributions, the conventional approach would be to compute the p-value as the proportion of resampled differences that are as extreme or more extreme than the observed difference. Since a zero difference might be relatively rare, relying solely on its percentile could potentially misrepresent the tail probabilities relevant to a two-sided test. Could you clarify how their method addresses this issue?

      This test is based on the computation of the distribution of the difference between classification accuracies across resamplings. This is similar to the computation of the confidence interval of a  difference. Thus, we assess whether the theoretical zero value (= no difference; = null hypothesis) is outside the 2.5 and 97.5 percentile interval of the computed distribution of the empirically observed differences. We clarified now in the Methods (page 41) that for a two-tailed test the computed p-value (the percentile of the zero value) should be smaller than 0.025.

      (6) Page 43, Lines 829-834: The manuscript explains: "The mean of 10 classification accuracies (i.e., of 10 resamplings) was employed to obtain a distribution (n=100) of the differences in classification accuracy ... The reported standard deviations of the classification accuracies are computed using also the means of 10 resamplings." I am unfamiliar with this type of analysis and am unclear about the rationale for calculating distributions and standard deviations based on the means of 10 resamplings rather than using the original distribution of classification accuracies. This resampling procedure appears to yield a narrower distribution and smaller standard deviations than the original data. Could you please justify this approach?

      The logic of the analysis is to reduce the noise in the data, by averaging across 10 randomly selected resamplings, but still keeping a sufficient number of data (100 values) for a test.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Some sentences are too long and difficult to parse. For example, in line 177: "the correlations between the responses to the 64 head-body orientation conditions of the two centerings for the neuron and pose combinations showing significant head-body interactions for the two centerings were similar to those observed for the whole population."

      We have modified this sentence: For neuron and pose combinations with significant head-body interactions in both centerings, the correlations between responses to the 64 head-body orientation conditions were similar to those observed in the whole population.

      (2) The authors argue in line 485: "in our study, a search bias cannot explain the body-inversion effect since we selected responsive units using both upright and inverted images." However, the body-selective patches were localized using upright images, correct?

      The monkey-selective patches were localized using upright images indeed. However, we recorded in experiment 3 (and 2) also outside the localized patches (as we noted before in the Methods:  “In experiments 2 and 3 we recorded from a wider region, which overlapped with the two monkey patches and the recording locations of experiment 1”). Furthermore, the preference for upright monkey images is not an all-or-nothing phenomenon: most units still responded to inverted monkeys. Also, we believe it is likely that the mean responses to the inverted bodies in the monkey patches, defined by upright bodies versus objects, would be larger than those to objects and we would be surprised to learn that there is a patch selective for inverted bodies that we would have missed with our localizer.

      (3) Typo: line 447, "this independent"->"is independent"?

      Corrected.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Review:

      Reviewer #1:

      Summary:

      The Roco proteins are a family of GTPases characterized by the conserved presence of an ROC-COR tandem domain. How GTP binding alters the structure and activity of Roco proteins remains unclear. In this study, Galicia C et al. took advantage of conformationspecific nanobodies to trap CtRoco, a bacterial Roco, in an active monomeric state and determined its high-resolution structure by cryo-EM. This study, in combination with the previous inactive dimeric CtRoco, revealed the molecular basis of CtRoco activation through GTP-binding and dimer-to-monomer transition.

      Strengths:

      The reviewer is impressed by the authors' deep understanding of the CtRoco protein. Capturing Roco proteins in a GTP-bound state is a major breakthrough in the mechanistic understanding of the activation mechanism of Roco proteins and shows similarity with the activation mechanism of LRRK2, a key molecule in Parkinson's disease. Furthermore, the methodology the authors used in this manuscript - using conformation-specific nanobodies to trap the active conformation, which is otherwise flexible and resistant to single-particle average - is highly valuable and inspiring.

      Weakness:

      Though written with good clarity, the paper will benefit from some clarifications.

      (1) The angular distribution of particles for the 3D reconstructions should be provided (Figure 1 - Sup. 1 & Sup. 2).

      Figure 1 – Figure supplements 1 and 2 now contain particle distribution plots.

      (2) The B-factors for protein and ligand of the model, Map sharpening factor, and molprobity score should be provided (Table 1).

      Table 1 now contains B-factors and molprobity scores.

      The map used to interpret the model was post-processed by density modification, and therefore no data concerning sharpening factors are provided in the output.

      (3) A supplemental Figure to Figure 2B, illustrating how a0-helix interacts with COR-A&LRR before and after GTP binding in atomic details, will be helpful for the readers to understand the critical role of a0-helix during CtRoco activation.

      This is now illustrated in the new Figure 2 – Figure Supplement 1.

      (4) For the following statement, "On the other hand, only relatively small changes are observed in the orientation of the Roc a3 helix. This helix, which was previously suggested to be an important element in the activation of LRRK2 (Kalogeropulou et al., 2022), is located at the interface of the Roc and CORB domains and harbors the residues H554 and Y558, orthologous to the LRRK2 PD mutation sites N1337 and R1441, respectively." It is not surprising the a3-helix of the ROC domain only has small changes when the ROC domain is aligned (Figure 2E). However, in the study by Zhu et al (DOI: 10.1126/science.adi9926), it was shown that a3-helix has a "see-saw" motion when the COR-B domain is aligned. Is this motion conserved in CtRoco from inactive to active state?

      We indeed describe the conformational changes from the perspective of the Roc domain. When using the COR-B domain for structural alignment, a rotational movement of Roc (including a “seesaw”-like movement of the α3-helix helix around His554) with respect to COR-B is correspondingly observed.

      This is now added to Figure 2E. Additionally, the text was adapted to:

      “Interestingly, this rotational movement of CORB seems to use the H554-Y558-Y804 triad on the interface of Roc and CORB as a pivot point (Figure 2E). Mutation of either of the corresponding residues in LRRK2 (N1437, R1441, Y1699, respectively) is associated with PD and leads to LRRK2 activation. Residues H554 and Y558 are located on the Roc a3 helix, which was previously suggested to be an important element in the activation of LRRK2 (Kalogeropulou et al., 2022). Indeed, while the orientation of the a3 helix with respect to the rest of the Roc domain only undergoes small changes upon GTPgS binding, it can be observed that this helix undergoes a “seesaw-like” movement with respect to the CORB domain. A similar rearrangement was previously also observed for Rab29-mediated activation of human LRRK2 (Störmer et al., 2023; Zhu et al., 2022).”

      (5) A supplemental figure showing the positions of and distances between NbRoco1 K91 and Roc K443, K583, and K611 would help the following statement. "Also multiple crosslinks between the Nbs and CtRoco, as well as between both nanobodies were found. ... NbRoco1-K69 also forms crosslinks with two lysines within the Roc domain (K583 and K611), and NbRoco1-K91 is crosslinked to K583".

      A figure displaying these crosslinks is now provided as Figure 4–figure supplement 1. However, in interpreting these crosslinks it should be taken into consideration that the additive length of the DSSO spacer and the lysine side chains leads to a theoretical upper limit of ∼26 Å for the distance between the α carbon atoms of cross-linked lysines (and even a cut-off distance of 35 Å when taking into account protein dynamics).

      (6) It would be informative to show the position of CtRoco-L487 in the NF and GTP-bound state and comment on why this mutation favors GTP hydrolysis.

      L487 is located in Switch 1, which is a critical region for nucleotide binding and hydrolysis. Unfortunately, most probably due to flexibility, the Switch 1 region could not be entirely modeled (in neither nucleotide state). Since L487 is located on the edge of the interpretable portion of the Switch 1 in both structures (see Author response image 1 below), any interpretation regarding the role of this residue would be highly speculative.

      Author response image 1.

      The following text was added to the Results section:

      “Also the Switch 1 loop could not be fully modeled in our structure, presumably indicating some flexibility in this region despite the presence of a GTP analogue. Interestingly, the Switch 1 loop harbors the site of the PD-analogous L487A mutation that leads to a stabilization of the CtRoco dimer with a concomitant decrease in GTPase activity (Deyaert et al., 2019). Unfortunately, an exact interpretation of this effect of the L487A mutation is hampered by the lack of a well resolved Switch 1 loop.”

      Reviewer #2:

      Summary

      The manuscript by Galicia et al describes the structure of the bacterial GTPyS-bound CtRoco protein in the presence of nanobodies. The major relevance of this study is in the fact that the CtRoco protein is a homolog of the human LRRK2 protein with mutations that are associated with Parkinson's disease. The structure and activation mechanisms of these proteins are very complex and not well understood. Especially lacking is a structure of the protein in the GTP-bound state. Previously the authors have shown that two conformational nanobodies can be used to bring/stabilize the protein in a monomerGTPyS-bound state. In this manuscript, the authors use these nanobodies to obtain the GTPyS-bound structure and importantly discuss their results in the context of the mammalian LRRK2 activation mechanism and mutations leading to Parkinson's disease. The work is well performed and clearly described. In general, the conclusions on the structure are reasonable and well-discussed in the context of the LRRK2 activation mechanism.

      Strengths:

      The strong points are the innovative use of nanobodies to stabilize the otherwise flexible protein and the new GTPyS-bound structure that helps enormously in understanding the activation cycle of these proteins.

      Weakness:

      The strong point of the use of nanobodies is also a potential weak point; these nanobodies may have induced some conformational changes in a part of the protein that will not be present in a GTPyS-bound protein in the absence of nanobodies.

      Two major points need further attention.

      (1) Several parts of the protein are very flexible during the monomer-dimer activity cycle. This flexibility is crucial for protein function, but obviously hampers structure resolution. Forced experiments to reduce flexibility may allow better structure resolution, but at the same time may impede the activation cycle. Therefore, careful experiments and interpretation are very critical for this type of work. This especially relates to the influence of the nanobodies on the structure that may not occur during the "normal" monomerdimer activation cycle in the absence of the nanobodies (see also point 2). So what is the evidence that the nanobody-bound GTPyS-bound state is biochemically a reliable representative of the "normal" GTP-bound state in the absence of nanobodies, and therefore the obtained structure can be confidentially used to interpret the activation mechanism as done in the manuscript.

      See below for an answer to remark 1 and 2.

      (2) The obtained structure with two nanobodies reveals that the nanobodies NbRoco1 and NbRoco2 bind to parts of the protein by which a dimer is impossible, respectively to a0helix of the linker between Roc-COR and LRR, and to the cavity of the LRR that in the dimer binds to the dimerizing domain CORB. It is likely the open monomer GTP-bound structure is recognized by the nanobodies in the camelid, suggesting that overall the open monomer structure is a true GTP-bound state. However, it is also likely that the binding energy of the nanobody is used to stabilize the monomer structure. It is not automatically obvious that in the details the obtained nonobody-Roco-GTPyS structure will be identical to the "normal" Roco-GTPyS structure. What is the influence of nanobody-binding on the conformation of the domains where they bind; the binding energy may be used to stabilize a conformation that is not present in the absence of the nanobody. For instance, NbRoco1 binds to the a0 helix of the linker; what is here the "normal" active state of the Roco protein, and is e.g. the angle between RocCOR and LRR also rotated by 135 degrees? Furthermore, nanobody NbRoco2 in the LRR domain is expected to stabilize the LRR domain; it may allow a position of the LRR domain relative to the rest of the protein that is not present without nanobody in the LRR domain. I am convinced that the observed open structure is a correct representation of the active state, but many important details have to be supported by e,g, their CX-MS experiments, and in the end probably need confirmation by more structures of other active Roco proteins or confirmation by a more dynamic sampling of the active states by e.g. molecular dynamics or NMR.

      Recently, nanobodies have increasingly been used successfully to obtain structural insights in protein conformational states (reviewed in Uchański et al, Curr. Opin. Struc. Biol. 2020). As reviewer # 2 points out, the concern is sometimes raised that antibodies could distort a protein into non-native conformations. Here, it is important to note that the nanobodies were raised by immunizing a llama with the fully native CtRoco protein bound to a non-hydrolysable GTP analogue, after which the nanobodies were selected by phage display using the same fully native and functional form of the protein. As clearly explained in Manglik et al. Annu Rev Pharmacol Toxicol. 2017, the probability of an in vivo matured nanobody inducing a non-native conformation of the antigen is low, although it is possible that it selects a high-energy, low-population conformation of a dynamic protein. Immature B cells require engagement of displayed antibodies with antigen to proliferate and differentiate during clonal selection. Antibodies that induce non-native conformations of the antigen pay a substantial energetic penalty in this process, and B cell clones displaying such antibodies will have a significantly lower probability of proliferation and differentiation into mature antibody-secreting B lymphocytes. Hence, many recent experiments and observation give credence to the notion that nanobodies bind antigens primarily by conformational selection and not induced fit (e.g. Smirnova et al. PNAS 2015).

      Extrapolated to the case of CtRoco, which is clearly very flexible in its GTP-bound form, this means that the nanobodies are able to trap and stabilize one conformational state that is representative of the “active state” ensemble of the protein. In this respect, it is clear from our experiments (XL-MS, affinity and effect on GTPase activity) that the effects of NbRoco1 and NbRoco2 are additive (or even cooperative), meaning that both nanobodies recognize different features of the same CtRoco “active state”. Correspondingly, the monomeric, elongated “open” conformation is also observed in the structure of CtRoco bound to NbRoco1 only (Figure1 - supplement 2), albeit that this structure still displays more flexibility. The monomerization and conformational changes that we observe and describe in the current paper at high resolution are also in very good agreement with earlier observations for CtRoco in the GTP-bound form in absence of any nanobodies, including negative stain EM (Deyaert et al. Nature Commun, 2017), hydrogen-deuterium exchange experiments (Deyaert et al. Biochem. J. 2019) and native MS (Leemans et al. Biochem J. 2020).

      In the revised manuscript we added the following text to the discussion:

      “To decrease this flexibility, we have now used two previously developed conformationspecific nanobodies (NbRoco1 and NbRoco2) to stabilize the protein in the GTP-state (Leemans et al., 2020), allowing us to solve its structure using cryo-EM (Figure 1). Recently, Nbs have successfully been used to obtain structural insights in the conformational states of a number of highly dynamic proteins (Uchański et al, 2020). These studies established that Nbs bind antigens primarily by conformational selection rather than by induced fit (Manglik et al., 2017; Smirnova et al.,2015). Since NbRoco1 and NbRoco2 were generated by immunization with fully native CtRoco bound to a nonhydrolysable GTP analogue, and subsequently selected by phase display using the same functional protein, it is thus safe to assume that these Nbs bind to and stabilize a relevant conformation that is present within the “active” CtRoco conformational space (Leemans et al., 2020). Moreover, our current structures are also in very good agreement with previous biochemical studies and data from HDX-MS and negative stain EM (Deyaert et al., 2019; Deyaert, Wauters, et al., 2017).”

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1:

      (1) Figure 2C: please label the residues with meshes (switch 2).

      Labels have been added to figure 2C.

      (2) A supplemental figure for the following statement will be helpful "A remarkable feature of the CtRoco dimer structure was the dimer-stabilized orientation of the P-loop, which would hamper direct nucleotide binding on the dimer. Correspondingly, in the current structure, the P-loop changes orientation, allowing GTPgS to bind, although the EM map does not allow unambiguous placement of the entire P-loop. Surprisingly, also the Switch 1 loop could not be fully modeled, which could indicate some flexibility in this region despite the presence of a GTP analog".

      An additional Figure 2–figure supplement 2 has been added to illustrate this.

      (3) A supplemental figure for the following statement will be helpful "A final important observation in the Roc domain concerns the very C-terminal part of Switch 2 (residues 520 to 533), which could not be modeled in our GTP bound structure due to flexibility, while in the nucleotide-free dimer structure this region is structured and located at the interface of the Roc domain with the LRR-Roc linker and CORA. In this way, the conformational changes induced by GTPgS binding could be relayed via the Switch 2 toward the LRR and CORA domains, and vice versa."

      An additional Figure 2–figure supplement 2 has been added to illustrate this.

      (4) A structural comparison of each domain (LRR, ROC, COR) between NF and GTP-bound states will be greatly useful to understand statements in the manuscript, such as "In addition to the Cterminal dimerization part of CORB that becomes unstructured, also other large conformational changes are observed in the CORA and CORB domains of CtRoco upon GTPgS binding."

      We would like to clarify that with this statement we refer to changes in the relative orientation of the domains between the nucleotide-free and GTPgS-bound states, rather than to conformational changes within each domain. These changes in relative orientation are illustrated in Figure 2 and the associated Figure supplements.

      (5) The statement "to a lesser extent, also between CDR1 and the LRR-Roc linker" is not clearlyillustrated in Figure 3B.

      The reviewer is correct, and we now also show CDR1 in Figure 3B.

      (6) Extra panels can be added in Figure 1 Sup. 4 to illustrate the following statement "In the density map NbRoco2 can easily be identified and placed on the concave side of the LRR domain... Nterminal and C-terminal b-strands interacting with the very C-terminal repeat of the LRR".

      We belief the density map corresponding to NbRoco2 is clearly shown in Figure 1 – supplement 4A. A reference to this figure panel is now added to the main text.

      (7) "In the presence of both Nbs, the hydrolysis rate was increased 4-fold compared to CtRocoL487A alone and 2-fold compared to CtRoco-L487A in the presence of NbRoco1 only, again illustrating a collaboration between the Nbs (Figure 5C)" Here, is it 6-fold instead of 4-fold?

      The reviewer is correct. We changed this accordingly in the manuscript.

      Reviewer #2:

      (1) At many places in the manuscript the lack of structural details is explained by the assumed local flexibility of the protein. This may be true for many cases (such as linker regions), but is probably not always correct; several other explanations are possible to get no local structural details.

      See our answer to point 2, below.

      (2) At several other places in the manuscript the high flexibility is used to explain the lack of structural details (so the reasoning is reversed compared to point 1); this would require that a priori it is known that that the region is flexible and therefore no structure can be expected. An example is found mid-page 8: "A final important observation in the Roc domain concerns the very C-terminal part of Switch 2 (residues 520 to 533), which could not be modeled in our GTP bound structure due to flexibility, while in the nucleotide-free dimer structure this region is structured and located at the interface of the Roc domain with the LRR-Roc linker and CORA." As written there must be a reference to experiments showing the "due to flexibility"

      The reviewer is correct that additional factors might affect the interpretability of the map, such as the small size of the regions used for the focused refinements (around 50 kDa each) or a preferential distribution of orientation of the particles in the grid. Particle distribution plots are now shown in Figure 1 – Figure supplements 1 and 2. However, due to the intrinsic flexible nature of the Switch 1 and Switch 2 regions, we assume this flexibility to be the major cause of lack of features in the EM maps, especially since some of the neighboring regions display well-resolved maps.

      Nevertheless, in the manuscript we reworded our statements to be more careful. For example, on page 8:

      “Also the Switch 1 loop could not be fully modeled in our structure, presumably indicating some flexibility in this region despite the presence of a GTP analogue.”

      “… potentially due to flexibility of this region in the new position of the Switch 2…”

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer 1:

      Weaknesses:

      The authors do not discuss based on genomic information; the genomes of the cichlids from the three lakes have been decoded and are therefore available. However, indeed, the species in Lake Tanganyika and Lake Malawi/Victoria are genetically distant from each other, so a comparative genome analysis would not have yielded the results presented here. I recommend adding such a discussion to the Discussion.

      We appreciate your comment. We added the discussion regarding the genomic aspect of parallel evolution.

      Line 386-393: “From a genomic perspective, several studies have investigated the genetic basis of hypertrophied lip cichlids (Masonick et al., 2023; Nakamura et al., 2021). Importantly, some Wnt pathway-related genes (tcf4 and daam2) and ECM-related genes (postna, col12a1a, and col12a1b) have been found to be under positive selection in cichlids with hypertrophied lips of Lake Victoria (see Nakamura et al., 2021 Table S3). For future research, examining whether these genes are under selection in other lakes is crucial to understand the genetic mechanisms underlying the parallel evolution of hypertrophied lips.”

      Minor comments:

      Line 30, the Wnt --> the genes in Wnt

      We appreciate your comment. According to the comment, we corrected the sentence.

      Line 30: “the Wnt signaling pathway” -> “the genes in Wnt signaling pathway”

      Line 42-44, "It is considered that the same direction of natural selection drives phenotypic changes among species since it is unlikely that these complex phenotypes have been acquired repeatedly just by neutral evolution". How about "Since it is unlikely that such a complex phenotype was acquired repeatedly by neutral evolution alone, the same direction of natural selection among species is likely to drive the parallel phenotypic change."?

      We agree with your suggestion and correct the sentence of our manuscript.

      Line 42-44: “It is considered that the same direction of natural selection drives phenotypic changes among species since it is unlikely that these complex phenotypes have been acquired repeatedly just by neutral evolution”

      “Since it is unlikely that such a complex phenotype was acquired repeatedly by neutral evolution alone, the same direction of natural selection among species is likely to drive the parallel phenotypic change”

      Line 60, polygenic --> likely to be polygenic

      We appreciate your comment. Indeed, it is better to weaken the wording.

      Line 60: “most traits are polygenic” -> “most traits are likely to be polygenic”

      Line 91, the Wnt --> the genes in Wnt

      We appreciate your correction. Last paragraph of introduction has been corrected according to the suggestion of Reviewer 2 (Q1).

      Line 230, NovaSeq --> Illumina NovaSeq

      We appreciate your correction.

      Line 222: “NovaSeq 6000” -> “Illumina NovaSeq 6000”

      Line 231 "mRNA Library Prep Kit". Please add a company name.

      We appreciate your correction. We added company’s information.

      Line 223: “a TruSeq stranded mRNA Library Prep Kit.” -> “a TruSeq stranded mRNA Library Prep Kit (Illumina)”

      Line 267, as for the tip of hypertrophied lips, could you add and point out which part is the tip?

      We dissected hypertrophied lips in two half anterior and half posterior. We added the sentence in the materials and methods section.

      Line 156-158: “The lips of H. chilotes were analyzed separately for the base and tip.” -> “The lips of H. chilotes were dissected in two half anterior (tip) and half posterior (base), which are analyzed separately.”

      Line 272, "133 proteins upregulated and 5 proteins downregulated" in hypertrophied lip or normal lip?

      We appreciate your correction. We added the sentence as follows.

      Line 264: “133 proteins upregulated and 5 proteins downregulated”

      “133 proteins upregulated and 5 proteins downregulated in the hypertrophied lip”

      Line 274, "hypertrophied lips" means tip of hypertrophied lips?

      We appreciate your correction. We corrected the sentence as follows.

      Line 266: “hypertrophied lips are abundant” -> “tip of hypertrophied lips is abundant”

      Line 277, Did you perform multiple testing correction for statistical significance?

      We appreciate your comment about multiple testing corrections. We did not apply multiple testing corrections in our “exploratory” analysis of proteomics not to miss biologically important candidates in a limited sample size (n=3). We calculated the multiple corrected p-value in the Benjamini Hochberg method (Author response image 1, right). The result suggested that almost the same proteoglycans and its related proteins as we focused on are highly accumulated in the hypertrophied lips in milder conditions (significance level of 0.1).

      Author response image 1.

      Thus, our main conclusions remain unchanged even with correction applied, however, the overall balance of the volcano plot is not visually appealing (Author response image 1, right).

      It is important to note that we selected the Top 20 proteins based on fold change rather than statistical significance. In addition, our proteomic findings show consistency with our histological and transcriptome data, providing the biological validation from various aspects. While we understand the potential benefits of multiple testing correction, our current approach without multiple testing still offers valuable and fair data to propose hypothesis on the molecular mechanisms of lip hypertrophy in cichlids. Therefore, we want to use original figure without multiple testing. We greatly appreciate the understanding of the reviewer.

      Line 349-351, "The results of the enrichment analysis suggested that the genes that were categorized into both canonical and non-canonical Wnt signaling pathways, were highly expressed in the hypertrophied lips of juvenile and adult cichlids."

      The wnt category was enriched by analyzing the highly expressed genes, so isn't it natural that the wnt category is highly expressed?

      Did you mean to say as in the following sentence?

      "Enrichment of genes categorized in the canonical and noncanonical Wnt signaling pathways suggested that high expression of genes in the Wnt signaling pathway is likely to be involved in the hypertrophied lips of juvenile and adult fish."

      Thank you for your comments. We corrected our manuscript as follows.

      Line 341-344: “The results of the enrichment analysis suggested that the genes that were categorized into both canonical and non-canonical Wnt signaling pathways, were highly expressed in the hypertrophied lips of juvenile and adult cichlids.”

      “As a result of enrichment analysis, DEGs were categorized in the canonical and noncanonical Wnt signaling pathways, suggesting that high expression of genes in the Wnt signaling pathway is likely to be involved in the hypertrophied lips of juvenile and adult fish.”

      Line 403-404, "several other pathways may be involved in the development of hypertrophied lips". Do you have any evidence?

      We appreciate your comment regarding possible evidence for the involvement of multiple pathways in hypertrophied lip development. Our statement was based on two main points:

      (1) While we highlighted the Wnt pathway because this pathway is known to increase proteoglycan expression, we cannot exclude the possibility of the involvement of other pathways. For instance, our enrichment analysis in adult cichlids identified VEGF-related pathways, which could contribute to lip hypertrophy by increasing vascularization and nutrient supply to the lip tissue.

      (2) Previous quantitative trait locus (QTL) analysis by Henning et al. (2017) concluded that lip hypertrophy is likely influenced by numerous loci with small additive effects. This indicates that lip hypertrophy is a complex phenotype consisted of multiple genetic factors, some which probably correspond to different molecular pathways.

      Given these points, we draw a conclusion that emphasize the importance of Wnt pathway while also recognizing the potential cooperative interaction of multiple pathways in developing lip hypertrophy. Without confusing the two statements, we corrected our manuscript as follows.

      Line 398-412: “We uncovered the apparent relationships between hypertrophied lips and the expression profiles of ECM proteins, in particularly proteoglycans. The trends for the overall expression of ECM-related genes were similar across hypertrophied lip species, but we rarely observed a specific gene that was commonly expressed at high or low levels in all three examples of hypertrophied lips across all East African Great Lakes. Furthermore, although we focused primarily on the relationship between the Wnt signaling pathway and lip hypertrophy, several other pathways may be involved in the development of hypertrophied lips. These findings imply that although enlargement of proteoglycan-rich loose connective tissue is common in hypertrophied lips, the developmental pathways to accomplish this are diverse in each lake.”

      “We uncovered the apparent relationships between hypertrophied lips and the expression profiles of ECM proteins, in particularly proteoglycans. The trends for the overall expression of ECM-related genes were similar across hypertrophied lip species, but we rarely observed a specific gene that was commonly expressed at high or low levels in all three examples of hypertrophied lips across all East African Great Lakes. Furthermore, although we focused primarily on the relationship between the Wnt signaling pathway and lip hypertrophy, several other pathways may be involved in the development of hypertrophied lips. For example, our enrichment analysis in adult cichlids identified VEGF-related pathways, which could contribute to lip hypertrophy by increasing vascularization and nutrient supply to the lip tissue. In addition, previous quantitative trait locus (QTL) analysis by Henning et al. (2017) concluded that lip hypertrophy is likely influenced by numerous loci with small additive effects. These lines of data imply that although enlargement of proteoglycan-rich loose connective tissue is common in hypertrophied lips, the developmental pathways to accomplish this are diverse in each lake.”

      Reviewer 2:

      Minor comments:

      Last paragraph of Introduction: Remove the results of this study.

      We appreciate your suggestion. We remove the specialized results from the last paragraph.

      “In this study, we comprehensively compared the hypertrophied lips of cichlids across all East African Great Lakes using histology, proteomics, and transcriptomics. Histological and proteomic analyses revealed a distinct microstructure of hypertrophied lips compared to normal lips, and primary candidate proteins were identified. Transcriptome analysis at different developmental stages showed that the genes in Wnt signaling pathway was highly expressed in cichlids with hypertrophied lips at both the juvenile and adult stages. It is noteworthy that the distinct expression profiles observed in the proteome and transcriptome analyses of hypertrophied lips were similar among cichlids from each of the East African Great Lakes. The present study, which integrates comprehensive analyses for cichlids from all East African Great Lakes, provides insight for a better understanding of the molecular basis of a typical example of parallel evolution.”

      Line 87-91: “In this study, we comprehensively compared the hypertrophied and normal lips of cichlids across all East African Great Lakes at various biological levels using histology, proteomics, and transcriptomics. As a result, we showed that a novel key pathway commonly involved in the formation of hypertrophied lips, providing insight into a better understanding of the molecular basis of a typical example of parallel evolution.”

      Line 156: Italicize the scientific names.

      We appreciate your correction.

      Line 148: “M. zebra and O. niloticus” -> “M. zebra and O. niloticus

      Line 261: Remove the period after "Victoria."

      We appreciate your correction.

      Line 253: “Lake Victoria. (Figure 1; Figure S2).” -> “Lake Victoria (Figure 1; Figure S2).”

      Line 416: Remove the period after "tissue."

      We appreciate your correction.

      Line 420: “tissue. (A,B)” -> “tissue (A,B)”

      Line 646: Probably "the anterior side to the left."

      We apologize for our mistake. As you commented, the anterior side is left. We corrected our manuscript as follows.

      Line 648: “the anterior side to the right” -> “the anterior side to the left”

      Fig. S2: Based on Fig. 1, the VG stained area appears larger in the Hypertrophied lip species; however, it is the opposite in Fig. S2.

      We appreciate your comments. This is because we calculated the ratio of the VG-stained area to the whole lip area. While the absolute VG-stained area is larger in hypertrophied lips, the proportion of the VG-stained area relative to the total lip area is smaller. This correction using entire area allows us to simply compare the degree of lip hypertrophy among species.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1

      Public Review

      Summary:

      (1) This work describes a simple mechanical model of worm locomotion, using a series of rigid segments connected by damped torsional springs and immersed in a viscous fluid.

      (2) It uses this model to simulate forward crawling movement, as well as omega turns.

      Strengths:

      (3) The primary strength is in applying a biomechanical model to omega-turn behaviors.

      (4) The biomechanics of nematode turning behaviors are relatively less well described and understood than forward crawling.

      (5) The model itself may be a useful implementation to other researchers, particularly owing to its simplicity.

      Weaknesses:

      (6) The strength of the model presented in this work relative to prior approaches is not well supported, and in general, the paper would be improved with a better description of the broader context of existing modeling literature related to undulatory locomotion.

      (7) This paper claims to improve on previous approaches to taking body shapes as inputs.

      (8) However, the sole nematode model cited aims to do something different, and arguably more significant, which is to use experimentally derived parameters to model both the neural circuits that induce locomotion as well as the biomechanics and to subsequently compare the model to experimental data.

      (9) Other modeling approaches do take experimental body kinematics as inputs and use them to produce force fields, however, they are not cited or discussed.

      (10) Finally, the overall novelty of the approach is questionable.

      (11) A functionally similar approach was developed in 2012 to describe worm locomotion in lattices (Majmudar, 2012, Roy. Soc. Int.), which is not discussed and would provide an interesting comparison and needed context.

      9-11: The paper you recommended and our manuscript have some similarities and differences.

      Similarities

      Firstly, the components constituting the worm are similar in both models. ElegansBot models the worm as a chain of n rods, while the study by Majmudar et al. (2012) models it as a chain of n beads. Each bead in the Majmudar et al. model has a directional vector, making it very similar to ElegansBot's rod. However, there's a notable difference: in the Majmudar et al. model, each bead has an area for detecting contact between the obstacle and the bead, while in ElegansBot, the rod does not feature such an area.

      Secondly, the types of forces and torques acting on the components constituting the worm are similar. Each rod in ElegansBot receives frictional force, muscle force, and joint force. Each bead in the Majmudar et al. model receives a constraint force, viscous force, and a repulsive force from obstacles. Each rod in ElegansBot receives frictional torque, muscle torque, and joint torque. Each bead in the Majmudar et al. model receives elastic torque, constraint torque, drive torque, and viscous torque. The Majmudar et al. model's constraint force and torque are similar to ElegansBot's joint force and torque in that they prevent two connected components of the worm from separating. The Majmudar et al. model's viscous force and torque are similar to ElegansBot's frictional force and torque in that they are forces exchanged between the worm and its surrounding environment (ground surface). The Majmudar et al. model's drive torque is similar to ElegansBot's muscle force and muscle torque as a cause of the worm's motion. However, unlike ElegansBot, the Majmudar et al. model did not consider the force generating the drive torque, and there are differences in how each force and torque is calculated. This will be discussed in more detail below.

      Differences

      Firstly, the medium in which the worm locomotes is different. ElegansBot is a model describing motion in a homogeneous medium like agar or water without obstacles, while the Majmudar et al. model describes motion in water with circular obstacles fixed at each lattice point. This is because the purposes of the models are different. ElegansBot analyzes locomotion patterns based on the friction coefficient, while the Majmudar et al. model analyzes locomotion patterns based on the characteristics of the obstacle lattice, such as the distance between obstacles. Also, for this reason, the Majmudar et al. model's bead, unlike ElegansBot's rod, receives a repulsive force from obstacles.

      Secondly, the specific methods of calculating similar types of forces differ. ElegansBot calculates joint forces by substituting frictional forces, muscle forces, frictional torques, and muscle torques into an equation derived from differentiating a boundary condition equation twice over time, where two neighboring rods always meet at one point. This involves determining the process through which various forces and torques are transmitted across the worm. Specifically, it entails calculating how the frictional forces and torques, as well as the muscle forces and torques acting on each rod, are distributed throughout the entire length of the worm. In contrast, The Majmudar et al. model uses Lagrange multipliers method based on a boundary condition that the curve length determined by each bead's tangential angle does not change, to calculate the constraint force and torque before calculating the drive torque and viscous force. This implies that the Majmudar et al. model did not consider the mechanism by which the drive torque and viscous force received by one bead are distributed throughout the worm. ElegansBot's rod receives an anisotropic Stokes frictional force from the ground surface, while the Majmudar et al. model considered the frictional force according to the Navier-Stokes equation for incompressible fluid, assuming the fluid velocity at the bead's location as the bead's velocity.

      Thirdly, unlike the Majmudar et al. model, ElegansBot considers the inertia of the worm components. Therefore, ElegansBot can simulate regardless of how low or high the ground surface's friction coefficient is. the Majmudar et al. model is not like this.

      (12) The idea of applying biomechanical models to describe omega turns in C. elegans is a good one, however, the kinematic basis of the model as used in this paper (the authors do note that the control angle could be connected to a neural model, but don't do so in this work) limits the generation of neuromechanical control hypotheses.

      8, 12: We do not agree with the claim that ElegansBot could limit other researchers in generating neuromechanical control hypotheses. The term θ_("ctrl" ,i)^((t) ) used in our model is designed to be replaceable with neuromechanical control in the future.

      (13) The model may provide insights into the biomechanics of such behaviors, however, the results described are very minimal and are purely qualitative.

      (14-1) Overall, direct comparisons to the experiments are lacking or unclear.

      14-1: If you look at the text explaining Fig. 2 and 5 (Fig. 2 and 4 in old version), it directly compares the velocity, wave-number, and period as numerical indicators representing the behavior of the worm, between the experiment and ElegansBot.

      (14-2) Furthermore, the paper claims the value of the model is to produce the force fields from a given body shape, but the force fields from omega turns are only pictured qualitatively.

      13, 14-2: We gratefully accept the point that our analysis of the omega-turn is qualitative. Therefore, we have conducted additional quantitative analysis on the omega-turn and inserted the results into the new Fig. 4. We have considered the term 'Force field' as referring to the force vector received by each rod. We have created numerical indicators representing various behaviors of the worm and included them in the revised manuscript.

      (15) No comparison is made to other behaviors (the force experienced during crawling relative to turning for example might be interesting to consider) and the dependence of the behavior on the model parameters is not explored (for example, how does the omega turn change as the drag coefficients are changed).

      Thank you for the great idea. To compare behaviors, first, a clear criterion for distinguishing behaviors is needed. Therefore, we have created a new mathematical definition for behavior classification in the revised manuscript (“Defining Behavioral Categories” in Method). After that, we compared the force and power (energy consuming rate) between each forward locomotion, backward locomotion, and omega-turn (Fig. 4). And in the revised manuscript, we newly analyzed how the turning behavior changes with variations in the friction coefficients in Figs. S4-S7.

      (16) If the purpose of this paper is to recapitulate the swim-to-crawl transition with a simple model, and then apply the model to new behaviors, a more detailed analysis of the behavior of the model variables and their dependence on the variables would make for a stronger result.

      In our revised manuscript, we have quantitatively analyzed the changes occurring in turning behavior from water to agar, and the results are presented in Figs. S9 and S10.

      (17) In some sense, because the model takes kinematics as an input and uses previously established techniques to model mechanics, it is unsurprising that it can reproduce experimentally observed kinematics, however, the forces calculated and the variation of parameters could be of interest.

      (18) Relatedly, a justification of why the drag coefficients had to be changed by a factor of 100 should be explored.

      (19) Plate conditions are difficult to replicate and the rheology of plates likely depends on a number of factors, but is for example, changes in hydration level likely to produce a 100-fold change in drag? or something more interesting/subtle within the model producing the discrepancy?

      18, 19: As mentioned in the paper, we do not know if the friction coefficients in the study of Boyle et al. (2012) and the friction coefficients in the experiment of Stephens et al. (2016) are the same. In our revised manuscript, we have explored more in detail the effects of the friction coefficient's scale factor, and explained why we chose a scale factor of 1/100 (“Proper Selection of Friction Coefficients” in Supplementary Information). In summary, we analyzed the changes in trajectory due to scaling of the friction coefficient, and chose the scale factor 1/100 as it allowed ElegansBot to accurately reproduce the worm's trajectory while also being close to the friction coefficients in the Boyle et al. paper.

      (20) Finally, the language used to distinguish different modeling approaches was often unclear.

      (21) For example, it was unclear in what sense the model presented in Boyle, 2012 was a "kinetic model" and in many situations, it appeared that the term kinematic might have been more appropriate. Thank you for the feedback. As you pointed it out, we have corrected that part to 'kinematic' in the revised manuscript.

      (22) Other phrases like "frictional forces caused by the tension of its muscles" were unclear at first glance, and might benefit from revision and more canonical usage of terms.

      We agree that the expression may not be immediately clear. This is due to the word limit for the abstract (the abstract of eLife VOR should be under 200 words, and our paper's abstract is 198 words), which forced us to convey the causality in a limited number of words. Therefore, although we will not change the abstract, the expression in question means that the muscle tension, which is the cause of the worm's locomotion, ultimately generates the frictional force between the worm and the ground surface.

      Recommendations For The Authors

      (23) As I stated in my public review, I think the paper could be made much stronger if a more detailed exploration of turning mechanics was presented.

      (24) Relatedly, rather than restricting the analysis to individual videos of turning behaviors, I wonder if a parameterized model of the turning kinematics would be fruitful to study, to try to understand how different turning gaits might be more or less energetically favorable.

      We thank the reviewer once again for their suggestion. Thanks to their proposal, we were able to conduct additional quantitative analysis on turning behavior.

      Reviewer #2

      Public Review

      Summary:

      (1) Developing a mechanical model of C. elegans is difficult to do from basic principles because it moves at a low (but not very small) Reynolds number, is itself visco-elastic, and often is measured moving at a solid/liquid interface.

      (2) The ElegansBot is a good first step at a kinetic model that reproduces a wide range of C. elegans motiliy behavior.

      Strengths: (3) The model is general due to its simplicity and likely useful for various undulatory movements.

      (4) The model reproduces experimental movement data using realistic physical parameters (e.g. drags, forces, etc).

      (5) The model is predictive (semi?) as shown in the liquid-to-solid gait transition.

      (6) The model is straightforward in implementation and so likely is adaptable to modification and addition of control circuits.

      Weaknesses:

      (7) Since the inputs to the model are the actual shape changes in time, parameterized as angles (or curvature), the ability of the model to reproduce a realistic facsimile of C. elegans motion is not really a huge surprise. (8) The authors do not include some important physical parameters in the model and should explain in the text these assumptions.

      (9. 1) The cuticle stiffness is significant and has been measured [1].

      (10. 2) The body of C. elegans is under high hydrostatic pressure which adds an additional stiffness [2].

      (11. 3) The visco-elasticity of C. elegans body has been measured. [3]

      Thank you for asking. The stiffness of C. elegans is an important consideration. We took this into account when creating ElegansBot, but did not explain it in the paper. The detailed explanation is as follows. C. elegans indeed has stiffness due to its cuticle and internal pressure. This stiffness is treated as a passive elastic force (elastic force term of lateral passive body force) in the paper of Boyle et al. (2012). However, the maximum spring constant of the passive elastic force is 1/20 of the maximum spring constant of the active elastic force. If we consider this fact in our model, the elastic term of the muscle torque is as follows: ( is the active torque elasticity coefficient, is the passive torque elasticity coefficient)

      where

      Therefore, there is no need to describe the active and passive terms separately in

      Furthermore, since , assuming , then and .

      (12) There is only a very brief mention of proprioception.

      (13) The lack of inclusion of proprioception in the model should be mentioned and referenced in more detail in my opinion.

      As you emphasized, proprioception is an important aspect in the study of C. elegans' locomotion. In our paper, its importance is briefly introduced with a sentence each in the introduction and discussion. However, our research is a model about the process of the creation of body motion originated from muscle forces, and it does not model the sensory system that senses body posture. Therefore, there is no mention of using proprioception in our paper's results section. What is mentioned in the discussion is that ElegansBot can be applied as the kinetic body model part in a combination model of a kinetic body model and a neuronal circuit model that receives proprioception as a sensory signal.

      (14) These are just suggested references.

      (15) There may be more relevant ones available.

      The papers you provided contain specific information about the Young's modulus of the C. elegans body. The first paper (Rahimi et al., 2022) measured the Young's modulus of the cuticle after chemically isolating it from C. elegans, while the second paper (Park et al., 2007) and third paper (Backholm et al., 2013) measured the elasticity and Young's modulus of C. elegans without separating the cuticle. Based on the Young's modulus provided in each paper (although the second and third papers did not measure stiffness in the longitudinal direction), we derived the elastic coefficient (assuming a worm radius of 25 μm, cuticle thickness of 0.5 μm, and 1/25 of longitudinal length of the cuticle of 40 μm). The range was quite broad, from 9.82ⅹ1011 μg/sec2 (from the first paper) to 2.16 ⅹ 108 μg / sec2 (from the third paper). Although the elastic coefficient value in our paper falls within this range, since the range of the elastic coefficient is wide, we think we can modify the elastic coefficient in our paper and will be able to reapply our model if more accurate values become known in the future.

      Reviewer #3

      Public Review

      Summary:

      (1) A mechanical model is used with input force patterns to generate output curvature patterns, corresponding to a number of different locomotion behaviors in C. elegans

      Strengths:

      (2) The use of a mechanical model to study a variety of locomotor sequences and the grounding in empirical data are strengths.

      (3) The matching of speeds (though qualitative and shown only on agar) is a strength.

      Weaknesses:

      (4) What is the relation between input and output data?

      ElegansBot takes the worm's body control angle as the input, and produces trajectory and force of each segment of the worm as the output.

      (5) How does the input-output relation depend on the parameters of the model?

      If 'parameter' is understood as vertical and horizontal friction coefficients, then the explanation for this can be found in Fig. 5 (Fig. 4 in the old version).

      (6) What biological questions are addressed and can significant model predictions be made?

      Equation of motion deciphering locomotion of C. elegans including turning behaviors which were relatively less well understood.

      Recommendations For The Authors

      (7) The novelty and significance of the paper should be clarified.

      We have added quantitative analyses of turning behavior in the revised manuscript, and we hope this will be helpful to you.

      (8) Previously much more detailed models have been published, as compared to this one.

      We hope the reviewer can point out any previous model that we may have missed.

      (9) The mechanics here are simplified (e.g. no information about dorsal/ventral innervation but only a bending angle) setting limitations on the capacity for model predictiveness.

      (10) Such limitations should be discussed.

      We view the difference between dorsal/ventral innervation and bending angle not as a matter of simplification, but rather as a reflection of the hierarchy that our model implements. Our model does not consider dorsal/ventral innervation, but it uses the bending angle to reproduce behavior in various input and frictional environments, which signifies the strong predictiveness of ElegansBot (Figure 2, 3, 5 (2, 3, 4 in the old version)). Moreover, if the midline of C. elegans is incompressible, then modeling by dividing into dorsal/ventral, as opposed to modeling solely with the bending angle, does not increase the degree of freedom of the worm model, and therefore does not increase its predictiveness.

      (11) The aims of the paper and results need to be supported quantitatively and analyzed through parameter sweeps and intervention.

      We have conducted additional quantitative analyses on turning behavior as suggested by Reviewer #1 (Fig. 4, S4-S7, S9, and S10).

      (12) The methods are given only in broad brushstrokes, and need to be much more clear (and ideally sharing all code).

      We have thoroughly detailed every aspect of this research, from deriving the physical constants of C. elegans, agar, and water to developing the formulas and proofs necessary for operating ElegansBot and its applications. This comprehensive information is all presented in the Results, Methods, and Supplementary Information sections, as well as in the source code. Moreover, we have already ensured that our research can be easily reproduced by providing detailed explanations and by making ElegansBot accessible through public software databases (PyPI, GitHub). To further aid in its application and understanding, especially for those less familiar with the subject, we have also included minimal code as examples in the database. This code is designed to simplify the process of reproducing the results of the paper, thereby making our research more accessible and understandable. Therefore, we believe that readers will easily gain significant assistance from the extensive information we have provided. Should readers require further help, they can always contact us, and we will be readily available to offer support.

      (13) The supporting figures and movies need to include a detailed analysis to evidence the claims.

      We have conducted and provided additional quantitative analyses on turning behavior as suggested by Reviewer #1 (Fig. 4, S4-S7, S9, and S10).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, Chen et al. used cryo-ET and in vitro reconstituted system to demonstrate that the autoinhibited form of LRRK2 can also assemble into filaments that wrap around the microtubule, although the filaments are typically shorter and less regular compared to the previously reported active-LRRK2 filaments. The structure revealed a new interface involving the N-terminal repeats that were disordered in the previous active-LRRK2 filament structure. The autoinhibited-LRRK2 filament also has different helical parameters compared to the active form.

      Strengths:

      The structure obtained in this study is the highest resolution of LRRK2 filaments done by subtomogram averaging, representing a major technical advance compared to the previous Cell paper from the same group. Overall, I think the data are well presented with beautiful graphic rendering, and valuable insights can be gained from this structural study.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) There are only three main figures, together with 9 supplemental figures. The authors may consider breaking the currently overwhelming Figures 1 and 3 into smaller figures and moving some of the supplemental figures to the main figure, e.g., Figure S7.

      (2) The key analysis of this manuscript is to compare the current structure with the previous active-LRRK2 filament structure. Currently, such a comparison is buried in Figure 3H. It should be part of Figure 1.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. As suggested, we have rearranged the figures, split Figure 1 and 3 into smaller Figures, and moved the comparison analysis in Figure 3H to the new Figure 1. Specifically, the old Figure 1 is separated into two figures, introducing the model-building process and describing the two symmetric axes. The old Figure 3 is also separated into two small figures, describing the geometric analysis and model comparison, respectively.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      The authors of this paper have done much pioneering work to decipher and understand LRRK2 structure and function, to uncover the mechanism by which LRRK2 binds to microtubules, and to study the roles that this may play in biology. Their previous data demonstrated that LRRK2 in the active conformation (pathogenic mutation or Type I inhibitor complex) bound to microtubule filaments in an ordered helical arrangement. This they showed induced a "roadblock" in the microtubule impacting vesicular trafficking. The authors have postulated that this is a potentially serious flaw with Type 1 inhibitors and that companies should consider generating Type 2 inhibitors in which the LRRK2 is trapped in the inactive conformation. Indeed the authors have published much data that LRRK2 complexed to Type 2 inhibitors does not seem to associate with microtubules and cause roadblocks in parallel experiments to those undertaken with type 1 inhibitors published above.

      In the current study, the authors have undertaken an in vitro reconstitution of microtubule-bound filaments of LRRK2 in the inactive conformation, which surprisingly revealed that inactive LRRK2 can also interact with microtubules in its auto-inhibited state. The authors' data shows that while the same interphases are seen with both the active LRRK2 and inactive microtubule bound forms of LRRK2, they identified a new interphase that involves the WD40-ARM-ANK- domains that reportedly contributes to the ability of the inactive form of LRRK2 to bind to microtubule filaments. The structures of the inactive LRRK2 complexed to microtubules are of medium resolution and do not allow visualisation of side chains.

      This study is extremely well-written and the figures are incredibly clear and well-presented. The finding that LRRK2 in the inactive autoinhibited form can be associated with microtubules is an important observation that merits further investigation. This new observation makes an important contribution to the literature and builds upon the pioneering research that this team of researchers has contributed to the LRRK2 fields. However, in my opinion, there is still significant work that could be considered to further investigate this question and understand the physiological significance of this observation.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive comments and we agree that more work can be done next to understand the physiological significance of the autoinhibited LRRK2 in cellular environments. We are actively working on understanding how the stability of autoinhibited full-length LRRK2 is regulated, especially how the transfer between autoinhibited and active forms of LRRK2 can happen. Our in situ data (Watabane et al. 2020) indicates that overexpressed hyperactive PD-mutant LRRK2 mainly adopts its active-like conformation in cells. Thus, learning how the state transfer occurs will allow us to target autoinhibited LRRK2 specifically and efficiently in cells and study its structure and function in physiological conditions.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript by Chen et al examines the structure of the inactive LRRK2 bound to microtubules using cryo-EM tomography. Mutations in this protein have been shown to be linked to Parkinson's Disease. It is already shown that the active-like conformation of LRRK2 binds to the MT lattice, but this investigation shows that full-length LRRk2 can oligomerize on MTs in its autoinhibited state with different helical parameters than were observed with the active-like state. The structural studies suggest that the autoinhibited state is less stable on MTs.

      Strengths:

      The protein of interest is very important biomedically and a novel conformational binding to microtubules in the proposed.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The structures are all low resolution.

      We thank the reviewer for the comments on both the strengths and weaknesses of the manuscript. We agree with the reviewer that higher resolution would provide more information about how LRRK2 interacts with microtubules and oligomerizes in its autoinhibited form. However, with the current resolution, our model-building benefited significantly from the published high-resolution models and the alpha-fold predictions. We used cryo-ET and subtomogram analysis to solve the structure because this filament is less regular than the right-handed active LRRK2 filament, preventing us from using conventional single-particle analysis. As highlighted by reviewer 1, being able to push the resolution to sub-nanometer is an important advance reflecting state-of-the-art subtomogram analysis, especially for a heterogeneous sample.  Notably, the microtubule reconstruction reached higher resolution, comparable to our previous single-particle studies on LRRK2-RCKW (Snead and Matyszewski et al.), confirming the data quality.

      (2) There are no measurements of the affinity of the various LRRK2 molecules (with and without inhibitors) to microtubules. This should be addressed through biochemical sedimentation assay.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion and we agree that learning the binding affinity between LRRK2 and microtubules would be informative. We attempted to purify the LRRK2 with mutants on the WD40:ARM/ANK interface we identified in the manuscript.. Unfortunately, either LRRK2 or LRRK2<sup>I2020T</sup> with N-terminal mutants (R521A/F573A/E854K), the yield and purity of the final samples are significantly worse than our routine LRRK2 prep. Our chromatography and gel electrophoresis results indicate that proteins are degrading during purification.

      Author response image 1.

      While we have attached the results here, and it would be interesting to investigate why N-terminal mutations destabilize LRRK2, we anticipate that significant efforts would be required for further experiments, which we respectfully consider outside of the scope of this manuscript. 

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) In Figure S9, the graphic definition of "chain length" in panel A is misleading. The authors can simply note in the figure legend that "chain length is the number of asymmetric units in a continuous chain".

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. The updated figure and legend have incorporated the changes.

      (2) In Figure S7B, the conformation changes of the 'G-loop' and the 'DYG' motifs are not so convincing at the current resolution.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing it out. We agree that our model resolution is not high enough to support the unbiased observation of the conformation changes of the key kinase motifs. In the revised manuscript, we avoided emphasizing the comparison between the two models. Instead, we state that for both the MLi-2 bound map and the GZD-824 bound map, the corresponding published high-resolution models fit into each kinase map, but the MLi-2 bound model doesn’t fit as well in the GZD-824 bound map, with a correlation value dropped from 0.44 to 0.4, supporting our statement that “full-length LRRK2 bound to microtubules is in its autoinhibited state in our reconstituted system”.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Are there any cellular experiments that could be done to demonstrate that inactive LRRK2 associates with microtubules in cells?

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out this direction for future studies. We are studying the physiological significance of the autoinhibited LRRK2 in cells, but haven’t yet been successful at demonstrating physiological binding to microtubules. Further, as noted in our response to reviewer #3, we are also actively working on understanding how the stability of autoinhibited full-length LRRK2 is regulated, especially how the transfer between autoinhibited and active forms of LRRK2 can happen. Our in situ data (Watabane et al. 2020) indicates that hyperactive PD-mutant overexpressed LRRK2 mainly adopts its active-like conformation in cells. Thus, learning how the state transfer occurs will allow us to target autoinhibited LRRK2 specifically and efficiently in cells and study its structure and function in physiological conditions.

      (2) Previous work that the authors and others have undertaken has suggested that only LRRK2 in its active conformation can associate with microtubule filaments and the authors have shown that this leads to a roadblock in vesicular transport only when LRRK2 is complexed with Type 1 but not Type 2 inhibitors. There seems to be some discrepancy here that is not addressed in the paper as based on the current results one would also expect LRRK2 bound to Type 2 inhibitors to induce roadblocks in microtubule filaments. How can this be explained?

      We thank the reviewer for raising this important question. Taking all of our published data together, we believe that LRRK2 can introduce roadblocks with Type 1 inhibitor bound in the active-like conformation, where N-terminus LRRK2 domains are flexible and don’t block the kinase active site. In other words, full-length LRRK2 can form roadblocks when it behaves more like the truncated LRRK2<sup>RCKW</sup> variant. The autoinhibited LRRK2 forms shorter and less stable oligomers on microtubules, making it harder to block transport. Consistent with this, our in situ LRRK2-microtubule structure was observed in cells where LRRK2 is in an active-like conformation, and the LRRK2 N-terminus appeared to be flexible and away from the microtubule when forming right-handed filaments.

      (3) Does the finding that inactive LRRK2 only binds to microtubules as a short filament, explain the differences between the inactive and active forms of LRRK2 binding to microtubules and causing roadblocks?

      We thank the reviewer for discussing this point with us and asking the question. As we replied in the previous comment, the reviewer’s conclusion explains how the roadblock phenomenon occurs only under certain circumstances. We expanded our discussion to add the following and address the question:

      “Notably, we previously demonstrated that active‐like LRRK2, when bound to a Type I inhibitor, can form roadblocks that impair vesicular transport. Since autoinhibited LRRK2 assembles into shorter, less stable oligomers on microtubules, we anticipate it will exert reduced road‐blocking effects in cells, regardless of the inhibitor bound.”

      (4) Could the authors undertake further characterization of the new WD40-ARM-ANK interphase that they have identified? Is this important for the binding of the autoinhibited mutant? Could mutants be made in this interphase to see if this prevents the autoinhibited but not the active conformation of LRRK2 binding to microtubules?

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. As mentioned in our response to Reviewer #2, public comment #2, we attempted to purify the LRRK2 with mutants on the WD40:ARM/ANK interface we identified in the manuscript multiple times. Unfortunately, either LRRK2 or LRRK2<sup>I2020T</sup> with N-terminal mutants (R521A/F573A/E854K), the yield and purity of the final samples are significantly worse than our routine LRRK2 prep. Our chromatography and gel electrophoresis results indicate that proteins are degrading during purification.

      (5) The authors identify several disease-relevant missense mutations that appear to lie within the novel interphase that the authors have characterised in this study. Although this is discussed in the Discussion, some experimental data demonstrating how these missense mutations impact the ability of inactive LRRK2 to bind to microtubule filaments in the presence or absence of Type 1 and Type 2 compounds could provide further experimental data that emphasises the physiological importance of the results presented in this study.

      We thank the reviewer for discussing this interesting direction. The disease-relevant missense mutations can have a direct or indirect impact on the binding of autoinhibited LRRK2 to microtubules, and we agree that it would be interesting to test it out in the future. However, we anticipate that significant effort would be required for further experiments. Alas, our funding for this project ended suddenly and we want to report our results to the community.

      (6) For the data that is shown in Figure 1, could the authors explain how this differs from results in previous papers of the authors showing that the active form of LRRK2 binds microtubules? How does the binding observed here differ from that observed in the previous studies? To a non-specialist reader, the data looks fairly like what has previously been reported.

      We thank the reviewer for asking the question. As mentioned in the response to the public review, the detailed comparison between the data and the previous papers is described in Figure 3, and we agree that it is helpful to incorporate this information in Figure 1. In the revised manuscript, we have incorporated the comparison panel in Figure 1.

      (7) The finding that the autoinhibited LRRK2 forms short and sparse oligomers on microtubules raises the question of how physiological this observation is. Having some data that suggests that this is physiologically relevant would boost the impact of this study.

      We agree with the reviewer on this comment. As discussed in the response to the first comment from the reviewer, we have not been able to assess the physiological relevance of LRRK2 binding to microtubules in either active or inactive state, but continue to pursue this line of research. We are aware and regret that this lessens the impact of this work.

      (8) For the more general reader the authors could potentially better highlight why the key finding in this paper is important.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. To further address the significance of the key findings, especially how it can open up more possibilities for inhibitor-based drug development, we expand our discussion section to include the following:

      “Understanding how Type I and Type II inhibitors’ binding to LRRK2 affects its mechanism is vital to the design of inhibitor-based PD drug development strategies. Our findings revealed that different LRRK2 kinase inhibitors bind to autoinhibited LRRK2 similarly either in solution or on microtubules. Furthermore, the observation of autoinhibited LRRK2 forming short, less stable oligomers on microtubules opens new possibilities to inhibit LRRK2 activity in PD patients. A Type I inhibitor specifically targeting autoinhibited LRRK2 may alleviate the effect of LRRK2 roadblocks on microtubules. Alternatively, a promising strategy of LRRK2 inhibitor design can focus on the stabilization of allosteric N-terminus blocking on the kinase domain, which favors the formation of autoinhibited LRRK2 oligomers on microtubules and causes fewer side effects.”

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      In the third paragraph of the introduction, expand on whether type-1 inhibitors which "capture kinases in a closed, "active-like" conformation still inhibit the kinase activity.

      We thank the reviewer for the request to expand this paragraph. We added the following explanation for better understanding in the third paragraph:

      “Type-I inhibitors bind to the ATP binding site and target the kinase in its ‘active-like' conformation, inhibiting its kinase activity.”

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We thank the reviewers for truly valuable advice and comments. We have made multiple corrections and revisions to the original pre-print accordingly per the following comments:

      1. Pro1153Leu is extremely common in the general population (allele frequency in gnomAD is 0.5). Further discussion is warranted to justify the possibility that this variant contributes to a phenotype documented in 1.5-3% of the population. Is it possible that this variant is tagging other rare SNPs in the COL11A1 locus, and could any of the existing exome sequencing data be mined for rare nonsynonymous variants?

      One possible avenue for future work is to return to any existing exome sequencing data to query for rare variants at the COL11A1 locus. This should be possible for the USA MO case-control cohort. Any rare nonsynonymous variants identified should then be subjected to mutational burden testing, ideally after functional testing to diminish any noise introduced by rare benign variants in both cases and controls. If there is a significant association of rare variation in AIS cases, then they should consider returning to the other cohorts for targeted COL11A1 gene sequencing or whole exome sequencing (whichever approach is easier/less expensive) to demonstrate replication of the association.

      Response: Regarding the genetic association of the common COL11A1 variant rs3753841 (p.(Pro1335Leu)), we do not propose that it is the sole risk variant contributing to the association signal we detected and have clarified this in the manuscript. We concluded that it was worthy of functional testing for reasons described here. Although there were several common variants in the discovery GWAS within and around COL11A1, none were significantly associated with AIS and none were in linkage disequilibrium (R2>0.6) with the top SNP rs3753841. We next reviewed rare (MAF<=0.01) coding variants within the COL11A1 LD region of the associated SNP (rs3753841) in 625 available exomes representing 46% of the 1,358 cases from the discovery cohort. The LD block was defined using Haploview based on the 1KG_CEU population. Within the ~41 KB LD region (chr1:103365089- 103406616, GRCh37) we found three rare missense mutations in 6 unrelated individuals, Table below. Two of them (NM_080629.2:c.G4093A:p.A1365T; NM_080629.2:c.G3394A:p.G1132S), from two individuals, are predicted to be deleterious based on CADD and GERP scores and are plausible AIS risk candidates. At this rate we could expect to find only 4-5 individuals with linked rare coding variants in the total cohort of 1,358 which collectively are unlikely to explain the overall association signal we detected. Of course, there also could be deep intronic variants contributing to the association that we would not detect by our methods. However, given this scenario, the relatively high predicted deleteriousness of rs3753841 (CADD= 25.7; GERP=5.75), and its occurrence in a GlyX-Y triplet repeat, we hypothesized that this variant itself could be a risk allele worthy of further investigation.

      Author response table 1.

      We also appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion to perform a rare variant burden analysis of COL11A1. We did conduct pilot gene-based analysis in 4534 European ancestry exomes including 797 of our own AIS cases and 3737 controls and tested the burden of rare variants in COL11A1. SKATO P value was not significant (COL11A1_P=0.18), but this could due to lack of power and/or background from rare benign variants that could be screened out using the functional testing we have developed.

      1. COL11A1 p.Pro1335Leu is pursued as a direct candidate susceptibility locus, but the functional validation involves both: (a) a complementation assay in mouse GPCs, Figure 5; and (b) cultured rib cartilage cells from Col11a1-Ad5 Cre mice (Figure 4). Please address the following:

      2A. Is Pro1335Leu a loss of function, gain of function, or dominant negative variant? Further rationale for modeling this change in a Col11a1 loss of function cell line would be helpful.

      Response: Regarding functional testing, by knockdown/knockout cell culture experiments, we showed for the first time that Col11a1 negatively regulates Mmp3 expression in cartilage chondrocytes, an AIS-relevant tissue. We then tested the effect of overexpressing the human wt or variant COL11A1 by lentiviral transduction in SV40-transformed chondrocyte cultures. We deleted endogenous mouse Col11a1 by Cre recombination to remove the background of its strong suppressive effects on Mmp3 expression. We acknowledge that Col11a1 missense mutations could confer gain of function or dominant negative effects that would not be revealed in this assay. However as indicated in our original manuscript we have noted that spinal deformity is described in the cho/cho mouse, a Col11a1 loss of function mutant. We also note the recent publication by Rebello et al. showing that missense mutations in Col11a2 associated with congenital scoliosis fail to rescue a vertebral malformation phenotype in a zebrafish col11a2 KO line. Although the connection between AIS and vertebral malformations is not altogether clear, we surmise that loss of the components of collagen type XI disrupt spinal development. in vivo experiments in vertebrate model systems are needed to fully establish the consequences and genetic mechanisms by which COL11A1 variants contribute to an AIS phenotype.

      2B. Expression appears to be augmented compared WT in Fig 5B, but there is no direct comparison of WT with variant.

      Response: Expression of the mutant (from the lentiviral expression vector) is increased compared to mutant. We observed this effect in repeated experiments. Sequencing confirmed that the mutant and wildtype constructs differed only at the position of the rs3753841 SNP. At this time, we cannot explain the difference in expression levels. Nonetheless, even when the variant COL11A1 is relatively overexpressed it fails to suppress MMP3 expression as observed for the wildtype form.

      2C. How do the authors know that their complementation data in Figure 5 are specific? Repetition of this experiment with an alternative common nonsynonymous variant in COL11A1 (such as rs1676486) would be helpful as a comparison with the expectation that it would be similar to WT.

      Response: We agree that testing an allelic series throughout COL11A1 could be informative, but we have shifted our resources toward in vivo experiments that we believe will ultimately be more informative for deciphering the mechanistic role of COL11A1 in MMP3 regulation and spine deformity.

      2D. The y-axes of histograms in panel A need attention and clarification. What is meant by power? Do you mean fold change?

      Response: Power is directly comparable to fold change but allows comparison of absolute expression levels between different genes.

      2E. Figure 5: how many technical and biological replicates? Confirm that these are stated throughout the figures.

      Response: Thank you for pointing out this oversight. This information has been added throughout.

      1. Figure 2: What does the gross anatomy of the IVD look like? Could the authors address this by showing an H&E of an adjacent section of the Fig. 2 A panels?

      Response: Panel 2 shows H&E staining. Perhaps the reviewer is referring to the WT and Pax1 KO images in Figure 3? We have now added H&E staining of WT and Pax1 KO IVD as supplemental Figure 3E to clarify the IVD anatomy.

      1. Page 9: "Cells within the IVD were negative for Pax1 staining ..." There seems to be specific PAX1 expression in many cells within the IVD, which is concerning if this is indeed a supposed null allele of Pax1. This data seems to support that the allele is not null.

      Response: We have now added updated images for the COL11A1 and PAX1 staining to include negative controls in which we omitted primary antibodies. As can be seen, there is faint autofluorescence in the PAX1 negative control that appears to explain the “specific staining” referred to by the reviewer. These images confirm that the allele is truly a null.

      1. There is currently a lack of evidence supporting the claim that "Col11a1 is positively regulated by Pax1 in mouse spine and tail". Therefore, it is necessary to conduct further research to determine the direct regulatory role of Pax1 on Col11a1.

      Response: We agree with the reviewer and have clarified that Pax1 may have either a direct or indirect role in Col11a1 regulation.

      1. There is no data linking loss of COL11A1 function and spine defects in the mouse model. Furthermore, due to the absence of P1335L point mutant mice, it cannot be confirmed whether P1335L can actually cause AIS, and the pathogenicity of this mutation cannot be directly verified. These limitations need to be clearly stated and discussed. A Col11a1 mouse mutant called chondroysplasia (cho), was shown to be perinatal lethal with severe endochondral defects (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/4100752/). This information may help contextualize this study.

      Response: We partially agree with the reviewer. Spine defects are reported in the cho mouse (for example, please see reference 36 Hafez et al). We appreciate the suggestion to cite the original Seegmiller et al 1971 reference and have added it to the manuscript.

      1. A recent article (PMID37462524) reported mutations in COL11A2 associated with AIS and functionally tested in zebrafish. That study should be cited and discussed as it is directly relevant for this manuscript.

      Response: We agree with the reviewer that this study provides important information supporting loss of function I type XI collagen in spinal deformity. Language to this effect has been added to the manuscript and this study is now cited in the paper.

      1. Please reconcile the following result on page 10 of the results: "Interestingly, the AISassociated gene Adgrg6 was amongst the most significantly dysregulated genes in the RNA-seq analysis (Figure 3c). By qRT-PCR analysis, expression of Col11a1, Adgrg6, and Sox6 were significantly reduced in female and male Pax1-/- mice compared to wild-type mice (Figure 3d-g)." In Figure 3f, the downregulation of Adgrg6 appears to be modest so how can it possibly be highlighted as one of the most significantly downregulated transcripts in the RNAseq data?

      Response: By “significant” we were referring to the P-value significance in RNAseq analysis, not in absolute change in expression. This language was clearly confusing, and we have removed it from the manuscript.

      1. It is incorrect to refer to the primary cell culture work as growth plate chondrocytes (GPCs), instead, these are primary costal chondrocyte cultures. These primary cultures have a mixture of chondrocytes at differing levels of differentiation, which may change differentiation status during the culturing on plastic. In sum, these cells are at best chondrocytes, and not specifically growth plate chondrocytes. This needs to be corrected in the abstract and throughout the manuscript. Moreover, on page 11 these cells are referred to as costal cartilage, which is confusing to the reader.

      Response: Thank you for pointing out these inconsistencies. We have changed the manuscript to say “costal chondrocytes” throughout.

      Minor points

      • On 10 of the Results: "These data support a mechanistic link between Pax1 and Col11a1, and the AIS-associated genes Gpr126 and Sox6, in affected tissue of the developing tail." qRT-PCR validation of Sox6, although significant, appears to be very modestly downregulated in KO. Please soften this statement in the text.

      Response: We have softened this statement.

      • Have you got any information about how the immortalized (SV40) costal cartilage affected chondrogenic differentiation? The expression of SV40 seemed to stimulate Mmp13 expression. Do these cells still make cartilage nodules? Some feedback on this process and how it affects the nature of the culture what be appreciated.

      Response: The “+ or –“ in Figure 5 refers to Ad5-cre. Each experiment was performed in SV40-immortalized costal chondrocytes. We have removed SV40 from the figure and have clarified the legend to say “qRT-PCR of human COL11A1 and endogenous mouse Mmp3 in SV40 immortalized mouse costal chondrocytes transduced with the lentiviral vector only (lanes 1,2), human WT COL11A1 (lane 3), or COL11A1P1335L. Otherwise we absolutely agree that understanding Mmp13 regulation during chondrocyte differentiation is important. We plan to study this using in vivo systems.

      • Figure 1: is the average Odds ratio, can this be stated in the figure legend?

      Response: We are not sure what is being asked here. The “combined odds ratio” is calculated as a weighted average of the log of the odds.

      • A more consistent use of established nomenclature for mouse versus human genes and proteins is needed.

      Human:GENE/PROTEIN

      Mouse: Gene/PROTEIN

      Response: Thank you for pointing this out. The nomenclature has been corrected throughtout the manuscript.

      • There is no Figure 5c, but a reference to results in the main text. Please reconcile. -There is no Figure 5-figure supplement 5a, but there is a reference to it in the main text. Please reconcile.

      Response: Figure references have been corrected.

      • Please indicate dilutions of all antibodies used when listed in the methods.

      Response: Antibody dilutions have been added where missing.

      • On page 25, there is a partial sentence missing information in the Histologic methods; "#S36964 Invitrogen, CA, USA)). All images were taken..."

      Response: We apologize for the error. It has been removed.

      • Table 1: please define all acronyms, including cohort names.

      Response: We apologize for the oversight. The legend to the Table has been updated with definitions of all acronyms.

      • Figure 2: Indicate that blue staining is DAPI in panel B. Clarify that "-ab" as an abbreviation is primary antibody negative.

      Response: A color code for DAPI and COL11A! staining has been added and “-ab” is now defined.

      • Page 4: ADGRG6 (also known as GPR126)...the authors set this up for ADGRG6 but then use GPR126 in the manuscript, which is confusing. For clarity, please use the gene name Adgrg6 consistently, rather than alternating with Gpr126.

      Response: Thank you for pointing this out. GPR126 has now been changed to ADGRG6 thoughout the manuscript.

      • REF 4: Richards, B.S., Sucato, D.J., Johnston C.E. Scoliosis, (Elsevier, 2020). Is this a book, can you provide more clarity in the Reference listing?

      Response: Thank you for pointing this out. This reference has been corrected.

      • While isolation was addressed, the methods for culturing Rat cartilage endplate and costal chondrocytes are poorly described and should be given more text.

      Response: Details about the cartilage endplate and costal chondrocyte isolation and culture have been added to the Methods.

      • Page 11: 1st paragraph, last sentence "These results suggest that Mmp3 expression"... this sentence needs attention. As written, I am not clear what the authors are trying to say.

      Response: This sentence has been clarified and now reads “These results suggest that Mmp3 expression is negatively regulated by Col11a1 in mouse costal chondrocytes.”

      • Page 13: line 4 from the bottom, "ECM-clearing"? This is confusing do you mean ECM degrading?

      Response: Yes and thank you. We have changed to “ECM-degrading”.

      • Please use version numbers for RefSeq IDs: e.g. NM_080629.3 instead of NM_080629 Response: This change has been made in the revised manuscript.

      • It would be helpful for readers if the ethnicity of the discovery case cohort was clearly stated as European ancestry in the Results main text.

      Response: “European ancestry” has been added at first description of the discovery cohort in the manuscript.

      • Avoid using the term "mutation" and use "variant" instead.

      Response: Thank you for pointing this out. “Variant” is now used throughout the manuscript.

      • Define error bars for all bar charts throughout and include individual data points overlaid onto bars.

      Response: Thank you. Error bars are now clarified in the Figure legends.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reply to reviewer comments:

      (1) Given the interpretations of this study hinge on the specificity of the antibodies used in immune fluorescence, the authors should provide full western-blot images of all their antibodies in supplementary information. 

      The commercial antibodies have been validated by the provider. 

      Additionally, we did our own tests. Of note is that proper validation of any antibody is only possible by using a knockout mouse for each protein analyzed (i.e. for pPKA wt vs. pka ko mice). This is not possible, because we do not have all these knock-out strains. However, specific proteins like pPKA, pCAMKII, and pCAMKIV are known to be increased by a light pulse. We show by western blot that pPKA (Fig. 2a, b) and pCamKII (Fig. S2a, b) are increased in wt animals mirroring what we observed in the immunofluorescence. These results suggest that the signal is specific to these antibodies. We provide a full panel of western blots, including the other proteins studied by immunofluorescence such as pCamKIV, pCREB, CaV 3.1, and pDARP32 and show that they detect a protein of the expected size. Full Western-blots mentioned in the manuscript are shown in Supplementary Figure 7. Below are additional validations of antibodies used in the immunofluorescence experiments.

      Author response image 1.

      Author response image 2.

      (2) The explanation in the results section surrounding Fig. 4 seems to be specific for the representative trace rather than the group. Specifically, does the following statement apply to all the replicates?  " A Ca2+ transient was observed right before the light was given at ZT14 (Fig. 4b), which showed the same magnitude as those observed during and after the light stimulus". 

      If not this should be corrected.  

      We have replaced now Fig. 4b with an average trace of all experiments. The individual traces can be seen in supplementary figure 4d.

      (3) Are lines 236 -244 and figure 5A/B demonstrating shCDK5 being similar to no-calcium or EGTA conditions at the level of CREB not contradicting Figure 3 which argues that the reason behind the increase in CAMK-phosphorylation and pCREB following shCDK5 is increased basal calcium? If this is the case then why does removing the external calcium phenocopy shCDK5 in these cells? The authors need to clarify this and give an explanation. 

      (4) The authors should explain why they see an equivalent level (or more) of CREB activation, 5 minutes following forskolin activation in Ca2+-free condition (apparent in the case of shCDK5 and EGTA) in the FRET assay. Does this not imply PKA is the most likely candidate mediating this reaction at this stage? Given this interaction has been demonstrated in multiple (other) experiments including in vitro isolated enzyme experiments involving CREB and PKA (E.G. fig 6A in PMID: 2900470) an absence of p-PKA pulldown is not sufficient to justify the non-involvement of PKA (PMID: 22583753). This statement needs support in the form of positive data or acknowledging the limitations in the text (conditions, single technique, etc). 

      (5) The authors should better explain the fret pairs used in the experiments involving ICAP for the reader's benefit - a reduction in fluorescence as a function of CREB activation is non-intuitive.

      We answer all three questions (3-5) together since they belong to the same concept.

      (1) How FRET works.

      The Forster resonance energy transfer (FRET) technique is widely used to investigate molecular interactions between proteins such as CREB: CBP in living cells. We used a sensor called ICAP (an Indicator of CREB Activation due to Phosphorylation) published by Friedrich and colleagues in 2010

      (https://doi.org/10.1074/jbc.M110.124545). The sensor is composed of three different elements: 1) the KID domain of CREB containing the Ser-133, which is phosphorylated upon forskolin induction in our experimental setup, 2) the KIX domain of CBP, which is responsible for the dimerization with phospho-CREB and 3) a short linker that separates the KID with the KIX domain. KID is flanked by a cyan fluorescent protein (CFP), while KIX is flanked by a yellow fluorescent protein (YFP). When KID is not phosphorylated, the ICAP conformation allows CFP - stimulated by blue UV light - to transfer energy to YFP, producing FRET resulting in yellow light emission. Therefore, the ratiometric analysis FRET/CFP shows FRET > CFP. After a stimulus (forskolin), the serine-133 in KID is phosphorylated and KID can bind to KIX. The dimerization separates CFP from YFP, resulting in decreased FRET and increased CFP-dependent blue light emission (see Author response image 3 below). Therefore, the ratiometric analysis FRET/CFP shows FRET<CFP over time (usually within 20’ after the forskolin stimulus).

      Author response image 3.

      FRET model. On the left is a schematic representation of how ICAP works. On the right, an example of the quantified FRET decrease associated with increased KID: KIX interaction.

      (2) The ‘apparent’ contradiction between Figure 5A and Fig 3.

      As mentioned before, the chosen FRET method is ratiometric, meaning that a relative FRET signal in fluorescence is measured compared to the baseline (absence of forskolin, assay buffer). The FRET experiment can only tell whether there is a change in the phosphorylation state of KID during the live imaging comparing the baseline to the period after the forskolin treatment. The result produces a delta [ (time after forskolin)(baseline)]. The higher the delta, the more KID is phosphorylated after forskolin treatment. If KID phosphorylation is not increased compared to the baseline, the FRET signal tends to return to the baseline with a reduced delta [ (time after forskolin)-(baseline)]. Therefore, the experiment does not tell at the quantitative level the amount of KID (CREB domain) phosphorylation before the stimulus. It only tells whether after the stimulus the phosphorylation is increased producing or not a delta. This means that the lack of delta can be caused by: A) high KID phosphorylation in the baseline which does not further increase after the forskolin stimulus; B) very low KID phosphorylation in the baseline which does not increase after the forskolin stimulus. In Fig. 5A, wt cells (orange trace, lines, and double arrow) show a higher delta compared to the ko cells (blue trace, lines, and double arrow). The result indicated that the phosphorylation of CREB (KID domain) is increased after the forskolin stimulus only in the wt. To that extent, the results are in line with the experiment that we show in Figure 3. Indeed, the increased delta in CREB phosphorylation is observed only in the scramble animals, where it is lost in the ko (the blue double arrow indicates the delta in the scramble). 

      Author response image 4.

      (3) The FRET signal within 3 minutes after forskolin stimulation

      The signal mentioned by the reviewers at 5’ is an artifact given by the light diffraction promoted by the addition of Forskolin in DMSO which propagates through the plate. The same effect is observed in the only DMSO treatment (Fig.S5). Therefore, it needs not to be taken into account. The amplitude of this signal in this window of time is due to many independent variables (buffer composition, cell shape, room temperature, pipetting), therefore it is not possible to speculate any consideration about it. We never consider this time window for describing our results.

      Author response image 5.

      (4) Role of PKA and considerations about experiments performed in Fig. 5a and b

      To answer the question about the role of PKA, we believe it is a pivotal player. Our results indicate that PKA might promote CaV3.1, the entrance of calcium, and therefore, CAM Kinase pathway activation leading to CREB phosphorylation (Fig. 5). However, if the calcium is depleted, even a channel activation mediated by PKA cannot propagate the signal. For that reason, when we deplete calcium in wt cells as we do in the experiment performed in Figure 5B the activation of PKA alone cannot promote the CREB phosphorylation associated with a reduction of the FRET signal. As mentioned before, the FRET method gives a binary answer. It means either a higher or lower delta comparing time after forskolin to baseline. It cannot give stoichiometric info about the level of calcium and/or phosphorylation in the baseline. To that extent, the FRET experiment in Figure 5A cannot be connected to the experiment in Figure 5B. The method is the same, but the scientific questions are different. In Figure 5A we demonstrate that CDK5 plays a role in the PKA activation pathway. In Figure 5B we demonstrate that the general pathway needs calcium.

      We modified the text accordingly.

      (6) The presentation of the data in Figure 6 seems to be divergent from the rest of the data presentations. Please make it more consistent and also provide more explanations. Specifically, the authors suggest increased P-CREB nuclear localization (and an increase in phosphorylated PKA/CAMK) following shCDK5. Won't this lead to an increase in Per1, Dec1, cFos, and Sik1 basally (pre-light pulse)?

      We followed the reviewer's suggestion and present data in Figure 6 as done before in the manuscript. The reviewers should also consider our papers published before (Brenna et al., 2019; Brenna et al., 2021). In these papers, we demonstrate two important concepts that are in line with this manuscript. First, the lack of CDK5 promotes PER2 degradation and lack of nuclear translocation (Brenna et al., 2019). Second, PER2 plays a scaffold role in promoting the formation of the CREB transcriptional complex involved in the regulation of the expression of light-dependent genes (Brenna et al., 2021). Therefore, the take-home message here is that even if a lack of Cdk5 promotes a higher basal level of CREB phosphorylation, it also promotes PER2 degradation. Therefore, without PER2, the CREB-dependent gene expression is reduced. For this reason, we say that CDK5 gates phase shift (via PKA-CAM Kinases-CREB axis) of the circadian clock (via PER2).

      (7) The authors should discuss why calcium-sensitive phosphatases such as PP2A (PMID: 23752926) or calcineurin (PMID: 10217279) are not considered candidates for dephosphorylation of DARPP32 as these are described previously (CDK5) and conditions of increased calcium as seen here would favour these enzymes. The phospho-T75 data are supportive, but such additional discussion could be important given the past demonstrations.

      We thank the reviewers for the great insight. The pathway that promotes the T75 phosphorylation/dephosphorylation indeed includes many players as calcineurin and PPA2A. We mention this in the discussion now as follows:

      However, phosphatases such as PP2A and calcineurin, which de-phosphorylate DARPP32 including the Cdk5 phosphorylation site, may be involved in this process as well (Girault and Nairn, 2021). Upon light treatment and increase of Ca2+ these phosphatases would dephosphorylate DARPP32 and thereby inactivate it, leading to PKA activation. This process may occur in parallel to the Cdk5 regulation of DARPP32 contributing to a sustained activation of the light signaling pathway via PKA activation.

      (8) additional details on the knock-downs would be helpful: 

      - the relative amount of reduction in gene expression upon shRNA treatment should be provided  - How was the exact viral delivery and reduction in shRNA-induced knock-down confirmed for the individual animals?  

      The validation of Cdk5 knockdown was widely performed in the previous paper (Brenna et al., 2019, Fig2-Fig supp1, and Fig3-Fig suppl2). We used the same mice. We confirmed the goodness of the silencing also in the supp figure 1A of the current paper.

      (9) The authors only focus on male mice. This is rather incomplete, as it leaves away an important half of biological reality. Testing relevant aspects of the work in female mice would close this significant gap and also increase the number of biological replicates, which can still be considered relatively low. 

      We thank the reviewers for the suggestion. We injected female mice and performed the Ashoff type-II light pulse experiment at ZT14 and observe the same phenotype as for male mice. This is stated now in the paper and the data are shown in supplemental figure 1 e-f.

      (10) Given the roles of CdK5 in circadian clock period length regulation, but also light-induced phase delays, it would be interesting for a broader audience to discuss possible expectations of CdK5's roles, e.g. 

      (a) How will other circadian parameters, eg. activity bouts (numbers, length, activity onset/ offset) be affected? 

      (b) How does that relate to sleep, sleep phases? 

      (c) What is the expected impact on other physiological rhythms, eg food intake, cortisol levels? 

      (d) What are the expected effects on circadian oscillation of gene expression in other brain regions, organs? 

      We thank the reviewers for the observations. 

      a) The activity was discussed in the previous paper (Brenna et al. 2019). ShCdk5 mice show a reduced activity in both DD and LD 12:12 compared to wt, mirroring the Per2 brdm phenotype (Figure- Suppl3, with the difference mostly observed at night time (Figure 2-suppl4).

      We also demonstrate in Suppl Fig1 b, c of the current paper that light pulse does not affect the period length either in scramble mice or in sh Cdk5.

      b) We performed preliminary experiments with SCN shCdk5 knock-down animals and compared them to scr control mice using the Piezo sleep system. Total sleep was not different, however during the dark phase shCdk5 animals tended to sleep a bit more, similar to the neuronal Per2 KO animals (Wendrich et al., 2023 https://doi.org/10.3390/clockssleep5020017 ). After sleep-deprivation no differences were observed between shCdk5 and scr animals. This was comparable to the neuronal Per2 KO animals that also showed no phenotype after sleep deprivation.

      c) and d) We did not investigate food intake, cortisol, or other parameters involving peripheral clocks. We did not investigate the gene expression in other brain regions because the SCN is the main brain region involved in the regulation of the circadian clock phase shift. However future studies will address these questions.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      Campbell et al investigated the effects of light on the human brain, in particular the subcortical part of the hypothalamus during auditory cognitive tasks. The mechanisms and neuronal circuits underlying light effects in non-image forming responses are so far mostly studied in rodents but are not easily translated in humans. Therefore, this is a fundamental study aiming to establish the impact light illuminance has on the subcortical structures using the high-resolution 7T fMRI. The authors found that parts of the hypothalamus are differently responding to illuminance. In particular, they found that the activity of the posterior hypothalamus increases while the activity of the anterior and ventral parts of the hypothalamus decreases under high illuminance. The authors also report that the performance of the 2-back executive task was significantly better in higher illuminance conditions. However, it seems that the activity of the posterior hypothalamus subpart is negatively related to the performance of the executive task, implying that it is unlikely that this part of the hypothalamus is directly involved in the positive impact of light on performance observed. Interestingly, the activity of the posterior hypothalamus was, however, associated with an increased behavioural response to emotional stimuli. This suggests that the role of this posterior part of the hypothalamus is not as simple regarding light effects on cognitive and emotional responses. This study is a fundamental step towards our better understanding of the mechanisms underlying light effects on cognition and consequently optimising lighting standards. 

      Strengths: 

      While it is still impossible to distinguish individual hypothalamic nuclei, even with the highresolution fMRI, the authors split the hypothalamus into five areas encompassing five groups of hypothalamic nuclei. This allowed them to reveal that different parts of the hypothalamus respond differently to an increase in illuminance. They found that higher illuminance increased the activity of the posterior part of the hypothalamus encompassing the MB and parts of the LH and TMN, while decreasing the activity of the anterior parts encompassing the SCN and another part of TMN. These findings are somewhat in line with studies in animals. It was shown that parts of the hypothalamus such as SCN, LH, and PVN receive direct retinal input in particular from ipRGCs. Also, acute chemogenetic activation of ipRGCs was shown to induce activation of LH and also increased arousal in mice. 

      Weaknesses: 

      While the light characteristics are well documented and EDI calculated for all of the photoreceptors, it is not very clear why these irradiances and spectra were chosen. It would be helpful if the authors explained the logic behind the four chosen light conditions tested. Also, the lights chosen have cone-opic EDI values in a high correlation with the melanopic EDI, therefore we can't distinguish if the effects seen here are driven by melanopsin and/or other photoreceptors. In order to provide a more mechanistic insight into the light-driven effects on cognition ideally one would use a silent substitution approach to distinguish between different photoreceptors. This may be something to consider when designing the follow-up studies. 

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      (1) As suggested in the public review more information regarding the reasons behind the chosen light condition is needed. 

      While the light characteristics are well documented and EDI calculated for all of the photoreceptors, it is not very clear why these irradiances and spectra were chosen. It would be helpful if the authors explained the logic behind the four chosen light conditions tested. Also, the lights chosen have cone-opic EDI values in a high correlation with the melanopic EDI, therefore we can't distinguish if the effects seen here are driven by melanopsin or cone opsins. In order to provide a more mechanistic insight into the light-driven effects on cognition ideally one would use a silent substitution approach to distinguish between different photoreceptors. 

      (2) In support of this work, it was shown in mice that acute activation of ipRGCs using chemogenetics induces c-fos in some of the hypothalamic brain areas discussed here including LH (Milosavljevic et al, 2016 Curr Biol). Another study to consider including in the discussion is by Sonoda et al 2020 Science, in which the authors showed that a subset of ipRGCs release GABA. 

      (3) Figure 1 looks squashed, especially the axes. Also, Figure 2 looks somewhat blurry. I would suggest that the authors edit the figures to correct this.

      We thank the reviewer for their positive comments and agree with the weaknesses they pointed out. 

      (1) The explanation regarding the choice of the illuminance is now included in the revised manuscript (PAGE 17): “Blue-enriched light illuminances were set according to the technical characteristics of the light source and to keep the overall photon flux similar to prior 3T MRI studies of our team (between ~1012 and 1014 ph/cm²/s) (Vandewalle et al., 2010, 2011). The orange light was introduced as a control visual stimulation for potential secondary whole-brain analyses. For the present region of interest analyses, we discarded colour differences between the light conditions and only considered illuminance as indexed by mel EDI lux. This constitutes a limitation of our study as it does not allow attributing the findings to a particular photoreceptor class.”

      The revised discussion makes clear that these choices limit the interpretation about the photoreceptors involved (PAGES 12-13): “We based our rationale and part of our interpretations on ipRGC projections, which have been demonstrated in rodents to channel the NIF biological impact of light and incorporate the inputs from rods and cones with their intrinsic photosensitivity into a light signal that can impact the brain (Güler et al., 2008; Tri & Do, 2019). Given the polychromatic nature of the light we used, classical photoreceptors and their projections to visual brain areas are, however, very likely to have directly or indirectly contributed to the modulation by light of the regional activity of the hypothalamus.”

      The discussion also points out the promises of silent substitution (PAGE 13): “Future human studies could isolate the contribution of each photoreceptor class to the impact of light on cognitive brain functions by manipulating prior light history (Chellappa et al., 2014) or through the use of silent substitutions between metameric light exposures (Viénot et al., 2012)”.

      (2) We now refer to the studies by Milosavljevic et al. and Sonoda et al. 

      PAGE 9: “Our data may therefore be compatible with an increase in orexin release by the LH with increasing illuminance. In line with this assumption, chemoactivation of ipRGCs lead to increase c-fos production, a marker of cellular activation, over several nuclei of the hypothalamus, including the lateral hypothalamus (Milosavljevic et al., 2016). If this initial effect of light we observe over the posterior part of the hypothalamus was maintained over a longer period of exposure, this would stimulate cognition and maintain or increase alertness (Campbell et al., 2023) and may also be part of the mechanisms through which daytime light increases the amplitude in circadian variations of several physiological features (BanoOtalora et al., 2021; Dijk et al., 2012).”

      PAGE 10: “Chemoactivation of ipRGCs in rodents led to an increase activity of the SCN, over the inferior anterior hypothalamus, but had no impact on the activity of the VLPO, over the superior anterior hypothalamus (Milosavljevic et al., 2016). How our findings fit with these fine-grained observations and whether there are species-specific differences in the responses to light over the different part of the hypothalamus remains to be established.”

      PAGE 10: “In terms of chemical communication, these changes in activity could be the results of an inhibitory signal from a subclass of ipRGCs, potentially through the release aminobutyric acid (GABA), as a rodent study found that a subset of ipRGCs release GABA at brain targets including the SCN (and intergeniculate leaflet and ventral lateral geniculate nucleus), leading to a reduction in the ability of light to affect pupil size and circadian photoentrainment (Sonoda et al., 2020). Whatever the signalling of ipRGC, our finding over the anterior hypothalamus could correspond to a modification of GABA signalling of the SCN which has been reported to have excitatory properties, such that the BOLD signal changes we report may correspond to a reduction in excitation arising in part from the SCN (Albers et al., 2017).”

      (3) Figures 1 and 2 were modified. We hope their quality is now satisfactory. We are willing to provide separate figures prior to publication of the Version of Record.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      Summary 

      The interplay between environmental factors and cognitive performance has been a focal point of neuroscientific research, with illuminance emerging as a significant variable of interest. The hypothalamus, a brain region integral to regulating circadian rhythms, sleep, and alertness, has been posited to mediate the effects of light exposure on cognitive functions. Previous studies have illuminated the role of the hypothalamus in orchestrating bodily responses to light, implicating specific neural pathways such as the orexin and histamine systems, which are crucial for maintaining wakefulness and processing environmental cues. Despite advancements in our understanding, the specific mechanisms through which varying levels of light exposure influence hypothalamic activity and, in turn, cognitive performance, remain inadequately explored. This gap in knowledge underscores the need for high-resolution investigations that can dissect the nuanced impacts of illuminance on different hypothalamic regions. Utilizing state-of-the-art 7 Tesla functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI), the present study aims to elucidate the differential effects of light on the hypothalamic dynamics and establish a link between regional hypothalamic activity and cognitive outcomes in healthy young adults. By shedding light on these complex interactions, this research endeavours to contribute to the foundational knowledge necessary for developing innovative therapeutic strategies aimed at enhancing cognitive function through environmental modulation. 

      Strengths: 

      (1) Considerable Sample Size and Detailed Analysis: The study leverages a robust sample size and conducts a thorough analysis of hypothalamic dynamics, which enhances the reliability and depth of the findings. 

      (2) Use of High-Resolution Imaging: Utilizing 7 Tesla fMRI to analyze brain activity during cognitive tasks offers high-resolution insights into the differential effects of illuminance on hypothalamic activity, showcasing the methodological rigor of the study. 

      (3) Novel Insights into Illuminance Effects: The manuscript reveals new understandings of how different regions of the hypothalamus respond to varying illuminance levels, contributing valuable knowledge to the field. 

      (4) Exploration of Potential Therapeutic Applications: Discussing the potential therapeutic applications of light modulation based on the findings suggests practical implications and future research directions. 

      Weaknesses: 

      (1) Foundation for Claims about Orexin and Histamine Systems: The manuscript needs to provide a clearer theoretical or empirical foundation for claims regarding the impact of light on the orexin and histamine systems in the abstract. 

      (2) Inclusion of Cortical Correlates: While focused on the hypothalamus, the manuscript may benefit from discussing the role of cortical activation in cognitive performance, suggesting an opportunity to expand the scope of the manuscript. 

      (3) Details of Light Exposure Control: More detailed information about how light exposure was controlled and standardized is needed to ensure the replicability and validity of the experimental conditions. 

      (4) Rationale Behind Different Exposure Protocols: To clarify methodological choices, the manuscript should include more in-depth reasoning behind using different protocols of light exposure for executive and emotional tasks. 

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Attention to English language precision and correction of typographical errors, such as "hypothalamic nuclei" instead of "hypothalamus nuclei," is necessary for enhancing the manuscript.

      We thank the reviewer for recognising the interest and strength of our study.

      (1) As detailed in the discussion, we do believe orexin and histamine are excellent candidates for mediating the results we report. As also pointing out, however, we are in no position to know which neurons, nuclei, neurotransmitter and neuromodulator underlie the results. The last sentence of the abstract (PAGE 2) was therefore removed as we agree the statement was too strong. We carefully reconsider the discussion and believe that no such overstatement was present.

      (2) Hypothalamus nuclei are connected to multiple cortical (and subcortical) structures. The relevance of these projections will vary with the cognitive task considered. In addition, we have not yet considered the cortex in our analyses such that truly integrating cortical structures appears premature. 

      We nevertheless added the following short statement (PAGE 11): “Subcortical structures, and particularly those receiving direct retinal projections, including those of the hypothalamus, are likely to receive light illuminance signal first before passing on the light modulation to the cortical regions involved in the ongoing cognitive process (Campbell et al., 2023).”

      (3) We now include the following as part of the method section (PAGES 16-17): “Illuminance and spectra could not be directly measured within the MRI scanner due to the ferromagnetic nature of measurement systems. The coil of the MRI and the light stand, together with the lighting system were therefore placed outside of the MR room to reproduce the experimental conditions of the in a completely dark room. A sensor was placed 2 cm away from the mirror of the coil that is mounted at eye level, i.e. where the eye of the first author of the paper would be positioned, to measure illuminance and spectra. The procedure was repeated 4 times for illuminance and twice for spectra and measurements were averaged. This procedure does not take into account interindividual variation in head size and orbit shape such that the reported illuminance levels may have varied slightly across subjects. The relative differences between illuminance are, however, very unlikely to vary substantially across participants such that statistics consisting of tests for the impact of relative differences in illuminance were not affected. The detailed values reported in Supplementary Table 2 were computed combining spectra and illuminance using the excel calculator associated with a published work (Lucas et al., 2014).”

      (4) The explanation regarding the choice of the illuminance is now included in the revised manuscript (PAGE 17): “Blue-enriched light illuminances were set according to the technical characteristics of the light source and to keep the overall photon flux similar to prior 3T MRI studies of our team (between ~1012 and 1014 ph/cm²/s) (Vandewalle et al., 2010, 2011). The orange light was introduced as a control visual stimulation for potential secondary whole-brain analyses. For the present region of interest analyses, we discarded colour differences between the light conditions and only considered illuminance as indexed by mel EDI lux. This constitutes a limitation of our study as it does not allow attributing the findings to a particular photoreceptor class.”

      (5) The manuscript was thoroughly rechecked, and we hope to have spotted all typos and language errors.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      Campbell and colleagues use a combination of high-resolution fMRI, cognitive tasks, and different intensities of light illumination to test the hypothesis that the intensity of illumination differentially impacts hypothalamic substructures that, in turn, promote alterations in arousal that affect cognitive and affective performance. The authors find evidence in support of a posterior-to-anterior gradient of increased blood flow in the hypothalamus during task performance that they later relate to performance on two different tasks. The results provide an enticing link between light levels, hypothalamic activity, and cognitive/affective function, however, clarification of some methodological choices will help to improve confidence in the findings. 

      Strengths: 

      * The authors' focus on the hypothalamus and its relationship to light intensity is an important and understudied question in neuroscience. 

      Weaknesses: 

      (1) I found it challenging to relate the authors' hypotheses, which I found to be quite compelling, to the apparatus used to test the hypotheses - namely, the use of orange light vs. different light intensities; and the specific choice of the executive and emotional tasks, which differed in key features (e.g., block-related vs. event-related designs) that were orthogonal to the psychological constructs being challenged in each task. 

      (4) Given the small size of the hypothalamus and the irregular size of the hypothalamic parcels, I wondered whether a more data-driven examination of the hypothalamic time series would have provided a more parsimonious test of their hypothesis. 

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      (1) The authors may wish to explain the importance of the orange light condition in the early section of the results -- i.e., when they first present the task structure. As it stands, I don't have a good appreciation of why the orange light was included -- was it a control condition? And if the differences between the light conditions (e.g., the narrow- vs. wide-band of light) were indeed ignored by focussing on the illuminance levels, are there any potential issues that the authors could then mitigate against with further experiments/analyses? 

      (2) Are there other explanations for why illuminance levels might improve cognitive performance? For instance, the capacity to more easily perceive the stimuli in an experiment could plausibly make it easier to complete a given task. If this is the case, can the authors conceptualise a way to rule out this hypothesis? 

      (3) Did the authors control for the differences in the number of voxels in each hypothalamic subregion? Or perhaps consider estimating the variance across voxels within the larger parcels, to determine whether the mean time series was comparable to the time series of the smaller parcels? 

      (4) An alternative strategy that would mitigate against the differences in the size of hypothalamic parcels would be to conduct analyses on the hypothalamus without parcellation, but instead using dimensionality reduction techniques to observe the natural spread of responses across the hypothalamus. From the authors' results, my intuition is that these analyses will lead to similar conclusions, albeit without any of the potential issues with respect to differently-sized parcels. 

      We thank the reviewer for acknowledging the originality and interest of our study. We agree that some methodological choices needed more explanation. We will address the weaknesses they pointed out as follows:

      (1) The explanation regarding the choice of the illuminance is now included in the revised manuscript (PAGE 17): “Blue-enriched light illuminances were set according to the technical characteristics of the light source and to keep the overall photon flux similar to prior 3T MRI studies of our team (between ~1012 and 1014 ph/cm²/s) (Vandewalle et al., 2010, 2011). The orange light was introduced as a control visual stimulation for potential secondary whole-brain analyses. For the present region of interest analyses, we discarded colour differences between the light conditions and only considered illuminance as indexed by mel EDI lux. This constitutes a limitation of our study as it does not allow attributing the findings to a particular photoreceptor class.”

      The revised discussion makes clear that these choices limit the interpretation about the photoreceptors involved (PAGE 12-13): “We based our rationale and part of our interpretations on ipRGC projections, which have been demonstrated in rodents to channel the NIF biological impact of light and incorporate the inputs from rods and cones with their intrinsic photosensitivity into a light signal that can impact the brain (Güler et al., 2008; Tri & Do, 2019). Given the polychromatic nature of the light we used, classical photoreceptors and their projections to visual brain areas are, however, very likely to have directly or indirectly contributed to the modulation by light of the regional activity of the hypothalamus.”

      We further mention that (PAGE 13): “Furthermore, we cannot exclude that colour and/or spectral differences between the orange and 3 blue-enriched light conditions may have contributed to our findings. Research in rodent model demonstrated that variation in the spectral composition of light was perceived by the suprachiasmatic nucleus to set circadian timing (Walmsley et al., 2015). No such demonstration has, however, been reported yet for the acute impact of light on alertness, attention, cognition or affective state.”

      Regarding the choice of tasks, we added the following the method section (PAGE 18): “Prior work of our team showed that the n-back task and emotional task included in the present protocol were successful probes to demonstrate that light illuminance modulates cognitive activity, including within subcortical structures (though resolution did not allow precise isolation of nuclei or subparts) (e.g. (Vandewalle et al., 2007, 2010)). When taking the step of ultra-high-field imaging, we therefore opted for these tasks as our goal was to show that illuminance affects brain activity across cognitive domains while not testing for task-specific aspects of these domains.”

      We further added to the discussion (PAGE 8): “The pattern of light-induced changes was consistent across an executive and an emotional task which consisted of block and an event-related fMRI design, respectively. This suggests that a robust anterior-posterior gradient of activity modulation by illuminance is present in hypothalamus across cognitive domains.”

      (2) We are unsure what the reviewer refers to when he states that the experiment could make it easier to perceive a stimulus. Aside from the fact that illuminance can increase alertness and attention such that a stimulus may be better or more easily perceived/processed, we do not see how blocks of ambient light, i.e. a long-lasting visual stimulus, may render auditory stimulation (letters or pseudo-words in the present) easier to perceive. To our knowledge multimodal or cross-modal integration has been robustly demonstrated for short visual/auditory cues that would precede or accompany auditory/visual stimulation. 

      We are willing to clarify this issue in the text if we receive additional explanation from the reviewer.

      (3) We added subpart size as covariate in the analyses (instead of subpart number) and it did not affect the output of the statistical analyses (Author response table 1). 

      For completeness, we further computed standard deviation of the activity estimates of the voxels within each parcel for the main analysis of the n-back tasks and found a main effect of subpart (Author response table 2) indicating that the variability of the estimates varied across subparts. Post hoc contrast and the display included in Author response image1 show however that the difference were not related to subpart size per see. It is in fact the largest subpart (subpart 4) that shows the largest variability while one of the smallest subpart (subpart 2) shows the lowest variability. Though it may have contributed, it is therefore unlikely to explain our findings. We consider the analyses reported in (Author response table 1 and 2 and (Author response image 1 as very technical and did not include it in the supplementary material for conciseness. If the reviewer judges it essential, we can reconsider our decision.  

      While computing these analyses, we realized that there were errors in the table 1 reporting the statistical outcomes of the main analyses of the emotional task. The main statistical outputs remain the same except for a nominal main effect of the task (emotional vs. neutral) and the fact that post hoc show a consistent difference between the posterior subpart (subpart 3) and all the other subparts, rather than all the other subparts except for the difference with superior tubular hypothalamus subpart: p-corrected = 0.09. We apologise for this slight error and were unable to isolate its origin. It does not modify the rest of the analyses (which were also rechecked) and the interpretations. 

      Author response table 1.

      Recomputations of the main GLMMs using subpart sizes rather than subpart numbers as covariate of interest.

      Author response image 1.

      Activity estimate variability per hypothalamus subpart and subpart size.  

      Author response table 2.

      Difference in activity estimate standard deviation between hypothalamus subparts during the n-back task.

      Outputs of the generalized linear mixed model (GLMM) with subject as the random factor (intercept and slope), and task and subpart as repeated measures (ar(1) autocorrelation).

      * The corrected p-value for multiple comparisons over 2 tests is p < 0.025.

      # Refer to Fig.2A for correspondence of subpart numbers

      The text referring to Table 1 was modified accordingly (PAGE 5): “A nominal main effect of the task was detected for the emotional task [p = 0.049; Table 1] but not for the n-back task. For both tasks, there was no significant main effect for any of the other covariates and post hoc analyses showed that the index of the illuminance impact was consistently different in the posterior hypothalamus subpart compared to the other subparts [pcorrected ≤ 0.05]”.

      (4) We agree that a data driven approach could have constituted an alternative means to tests our hypothesis. We opted for an approach that we mastered best, while still allowing to conclusively test for regional differences in activity across the hypothalamus. Examination of time series of the very same data we used will mainly confirm the results of our analyses – an anterior-posterior gradient in the impact of illuminance - while it may yield slight differences in the boarders of the subparts of the hypothalamus undergoing decreased or increased activity with increasing illuminance. While the suggested approach may have been envisaged if we had been facing negative results (i.e. no differences between subparts, potentially because subparts would not reflect functional differences in response to illuminance change), it would constitute a circular confirmation of our main findings (i.e. using the same data). While we truly appreciate the suggestion, we do not consider that it would constitute a more parsimonious test of our hypothesis, now that we successfully applied GLM/parcellation and GLMM approaches.

      We added the following statement to the discussion to take this comment into account (PAGE 12): “Future research may consider data-driven analyses of hypothalamus voxels time series as an alternative to the parcellation approach we adopted here. This may refine the delineation of the subparts of the hypothalamus undergoing decreased or increased activity with increasing illuminance.”

      Response references

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      Bano-Otalora, B., Martial, F., Harding, C., Bechtold, D. A., Allen, A. E., Brown, T. M., Belle, M. D. C., & Lucas, R. J. (2021). Bright daytime light enhances circadian amplitude in a diurnal

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      Campbell, I., Sharifpour, R., & Vandewalle, G. (2023). Light as a Modulator of Non-Image-Forming Brain Functions Positive and Negative Impacts of Increasing Light Availability. Clocks & Sleep, 5(1), 116. https://doi.org/10.3390/CLOCKSSLEEP5010012

      Chellappa, S. L., Ly, J. Q. M., Meyer, C., Balteau, E., Degueldre, C., Luxen, A., Phillips, C., Cooper, H. M., & Vandewalle, G. (2014). Photic memory for executive brain responses. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America, 111(16), 6087–6091. https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1320005111

      Dijk, D. J., Duffy, J. F., Silva, E. J., Shanahan, T. L., Boivin, D. B., & Czeisler, C. A. (2012). Amplitude reduction and phase shifts of melatonin, cortisol and other circadian rhythms after a gradual advance of sleep and light exposure in humans. PloS One, 7(2). https://doi.org/10.1371/JOURNAL.PONE.0030037

      Güler, A. D., Ecker, J. L., Lall, G. S., Haq, S., Altimus, C. M., Liao, H. W., Barnard, A. R., Cahill, H., Badea, T. C., Zhao, H., Hankins, M. W., Berson, D. M., Lucas, R. J., Yau, K. W., & Hattar, S. (2008). Melanopsin cells are the principal conduits for rod-cone input to non-image-forming vision. Nature, 453(7191), 102–105. https://doi.org/10.1038/nature06829

      Lucas, R. J., Peirson, S. N., Berson, D. M., Brown, T. M., Cooper, H. M., Czeisler, C. A., Figueiro, M. G., Gamlin, P. D., Lockley, S. W., O’Hagan, J. B., Price, L. L. A., Provencio, I., Skene, D. J., & Brainard, G. C. (2014). Measuring and using light in the melanopsin age. Trends in Neurosciences, 37(1), 1–9. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.tins.2013.10.004

      Milosavljevic, N., Cehajic-Kapetanovic, J., Procyk, C. A., & Lucas, R. J. (2016). Chemogenetic Activation of Melanopsin Retinal Ganglion Cells Induces Signatures of Arousal and/or Anxiety in Mice. Current Biology, 26(17), 2358–2363. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2016.06.057

      Sonoda, T., Li, J. Y., Hayes, N. W., Chan, J. C., Okabe, Y., Belin, S., Nawabi, H., & Schmidt, T. M. (2020). A noncanonical inhibitory circuit dampens behavioral sensitivity to light. Science (New York, N.Y.), 368(6490), 527–531. https://doi.org/10.1126/SCIENCE.AAY3152

      Tri, M., & Do, H. (2019). Melanopsin and the Intrinsically Photosensitive Retinal Ganglion Cells: Biophysics to Behavior. Neuron, 104, 205–226. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuron.2019.07.016

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The aim of this paper is to describe a novel method for genetic labelling of animals or cell populations, using a system of DNA/RNA barcodes.

      Strengths:

      • The author's attempt at providing a straightforward method for multiplexing Drosophila samples prior to scRNA-seq is commendable. The perspective of being able to load multiple samples on a 10X Chromium without antibody labelling is appealing.

      • The authors are generally honest about potential issues in their method, and areas that would benefit from future improvement.

      • The article reads well. Graphs and figures are clear and easy to understand.

      We thank the reviewer for these positive comments.

      Weaknesses:

      • The usefulness of TaG-EM for phototaxis, egg laying or fecundity experiments is questionable. The behaviours presented here are all easily quantifiable, either manually or using automated image-based quantification, even when they include a relatively large number of groups and replicates. Despite their claims (e.g., L311-313), the authors do not present any real evidence about the cost- or time-effectiveness of their method in comparison to existing quantification methods.

      While the behaviors that were quantified in the original manuscript were indeed relatively easy to quantify through other methods, they nonetheless demonstrated that sequencing-based TaG-EM measurements faithfully recapitulated manual behavioral measurements. In response to the reviewer’s comment, we have added additional experiments that demonstrate the utility of TaG-EM-based behavioral quantification in the context of a more labor-intensive phenotypic assay (measuring gut motility via food transit times in Drosophila larvae, Figure 4, Supplemental Figure 7). We found that food transit times in the presence and absence of caffeine are subtly different and that, as with larger effect size behaviors, TaG-EM data recapitulates the results of the manual assay. This experiment demonstrates both that TaG-EM can be used to streamline labor-intensive behavioral assays (we have included an estimate of the savings in hands-on labor for this assay by using a multiplexed sequencing approach, Supplemental Figure 8) and that TaG-EM can quantify small differences between experimental groups. We also note in the discussion that an additional benefit of TaGEM-based behavioral assays is that the observed is blinded as to the experimental conditions as they are intermingled in a single multiplexed assay. We have added the following text to the paper describing these experiments.

      Results:

      “Quantifying food transit time in the larval gut using TaG-EM

      Gut motility defects underlie a number of functional gastrointestinal disorders in humans (Keller et al., 2018). To study gut motility in Drosophila, we have developed an assay based on the time it takes a food bolus to transit the larval gut (Figure 4A), similar to approaches that have been employed for studying the role of the microbiome in human gut motility (Asnicar et al., 2021). Third instar larvae were starved for 90 minutes and then fed food containing a blue dye. After 60 minutes, larvae in which a blue bolus of food was visible were transferred to plates containing non-dyed food, and food transit (indicated by loss of the blue food bolus) was scored every 30 minutes for five hours (Supplemental Figure 7). 

      Because this assay is highly labor-intensive and requires hands-on effort for the entire five-hour observation period, there is a limit on how many conditions or replicates can be scored in one session (~8 plates maximum). Thus, we decided to test whether food transit could be quantified in a more streamlined and scalable fashion by using TaG-EM (Figure 4B). Using the manual assay, we observed that while caffeinecontaining food is aversive to larvae, the presence of caffeine reduces transit time through the gut (Figure 4C, Supplemental Figure 7). This is consistent with previous observations in adult flies that bitter compounds (including caffeine) activate enteric neurons via serotonin-mediated signaling and promote gut motility (Yao and Scott, 2022). We tested whether TaG-EM could be used to measure the effect of caffeine on food transit time in larvae. As with prior behavioral tests, the TaG-EM data recapitulated the results seen in the manual assay (Figure 4D). Conducting the transit assay via TaGEM enables several labor-saving steps. First, rather than counting the number of larvae with and without a food bolus at each time point, one simply needs to transfer nonbolus-containing larvae to a collection tube. Second, because the TaG-EM lines are genetically barcoded, all the conditions can be tested at once on a single plate, removing the need to separately count each replicate of each experimental condition. This reduces the hands-on time for the assay to just a few minutes per hour.  A summary of the anticipated cost and labor savings for the TaG-EM-based food transit assay is shown in Supplemental Figure 8.”

      Discussion:

      “While the utility of TaG-EM barcode-based quantification will vary based on the number of conditions being analyzed and the ease of quantifying the behavior or phenotype by other means, we demonstrate that TaG-EM can be employed to cost-effectively streamline labor-intensive assays and to quantify phenotypes with small effect sizes (Figure 4, Supplemental Figure 8). An additional benefit of multiplexed TaG-EM behavioral measurements is that the experimental conditions are effectively blinded as the multiplexed conditions are intermingled in a single assay.”

      Methods:

      “Larval gut motility experiments

      Preparing Yeast Food Plates

      Yeast agar plates were prepared by making a solution containing 20% Red Star Active Dry Yeast 32oz (Red Star Yeast) and 2.4% Agar Powder/Flakes (Fisher) and a separate solution containing 20% Glucose (Sigma-Aldrich). Both mixtures were autoclaved with a 45-minute liquid cycle and then transferred to a water bath at 55ºC. After cooling to 55ºC, the solutions were combined and mixed, and approximately 5 mL of the combined solution was transferred into 100 x 15 mm petri dishes (VWR) in a PCR hood or contamination-free area. For blue-dyed yeast food plates, 0.4% Blue Food Color (McCormick) was added to the yeast solution. For the caffeine assays, 300 µL of a solution of 100 mM 99% pure caffeine (Sigma-Aldrich) was pipetted onto the blue-dyed yeast plate and allowed to absorb into the food during the 90-minute starvation period.

      Manual Gut Motility Assay

      Third instar Drosophila larvae were transferred to empty conical tubes that had been misted with water to prevent the larvae from drying out. After a 90-minute starvation period the larvae were moved from the conical to a blue-dyed yeast plate with or without caffeine and allowed to feed for 60 minutes. Following the feeding period, the larvae were transferred to an undyed yeast plate. Larvae were scored for the presence or absence of a food bolus every 30 minutes over a 5-hour period. Up to 8 experimental replicates/conditions were scored simultaneously. 

      TaG-EM Gut Motility Assay

      Third instar larvae were starved and fed blue dye-containing food with or without caffeine as described above. An equal number of larvae from each experimental condition/replicate were transferred to an undyed yeast plate. During the 5-hour observation period, larvae were examined every 30 minutes and larvae lacking a food bolus were transferred to a microcentrifuge tube labeled for the timepoint. Any larvae that died during the experiment were placed in a separate microcentrifuge tube and any larvae that failed to pass the food bolus were transferred to a microcentrifuge tube at the end of the experiment. DNA was extracted from the larvae in each tube and TaG-EM barcode libraries were prepared and sequenced as described above.”

      • Behavioural assays presented in this article have clear outcomes, with large effect sizes, and therefore do not really challenge the efficiency of TaG-EM. By showing a Tmaze in Fig 1B, the authors suggest that their method could be used to quantify more complex behaviours. Not exploring this possibility in this manuscript seems like a missed opportunity.

      See the response to the previous point.

      • Experiments in Figs S3 and S6 suggest that some tags have a detrimental effect on certain behaviours or on GFP expression. Whereas the authors rightly acknowledge these issues, they do not investigate their causes. Unfortunately, this question the overall suitability of TaG-EM, as other barcodes may also affect certain aspects of the animal's physiology or behaviour. Revising barcode design will be crucial to make sure that sequences with potential regulatory function are excluded.

      We have determined that the barcode (BC#8) that had no detectable Gal4induced gene expression in Figure S6 (now Supplemental Figure 9) has a deletion in the GFP coding region that ablates GFP function. Interestingly, the expressed TaG-EM barcode transcript is still detectable in single cell sequencing experiments, but obviously this line cannot be used for cell enrichment (at least based solely on GFP expression from the TaG-EM construct). While it is unclear how this line came to have a lesion in the GFP gene, we have subsequently generated >150 additional TaG-EM stocks and we have tested the GFP expression of these newly established stocks by crossing them to Mhc-Gal4. All of the additional stocks had GFP expression in the expected pattern, indicating that the BC#8 construct is an outlier with respect to inducibility of GFP. We have added the following text to the results section to address this point:

      “No GFP expression was visible for TaG-EM barcode number 8, which upon molecular characterization had an 853 bp deletion within the GFP coding region (data not shown). We generated and tested GFP expression of an additional 156 TaG-EM barcode lines (Alegria et al., 2024), by crossing them to Mhc-Gal4 and observing expression in the adult thorax. All 156 additional TaG-EM lines had robust GFP expression (data not shown).”

      It is certainly the case that future improvements to the construct design may be necessary or desirable and that back-crossing could likely be used to alleviate line-toline differences for specific phenotypes, we also address this point in the discussion with the following text:

      “We excluded this poor performing barcode line from the fecundity tests, however, backcrossing is often used to bring reagents into a consistent genetic background for behavioral experiments and could also potentially be used to address behavior-specific issues with specific TaG-EM lines. In addition, other strategies such as averaging across multiple barcode lines or permutation of barcode assignment across replicates could also mitigate such deficiencies.”

      • For their single-cell experiments, the authors have used the 10X Genomics method, which relies on sequencing just a short segment of each transcript (usually 50-250bp - unknown for this study as read length information was not provided) to enable its identification, with the matching paired-end read providing cell barcode and UMI information (Macosko et al., 2015). With average fragment length after tagmentation usually ranging from 300-700bp, a large number of GFP reads will likely not include the 14bp TaG-EM barcode. 

      The 10x Genomics 3’ workflows that were used for sequencing TaG-EM samples reads the cell barcode and UMI in read one and the expressed RNA sequence in read two. We sequenced the samples shown in Figure 5 in the initial manuscript using a run configuration that generated 150 bp for read two. The TaG-EM barcodes are located just upstream of the poly-adenylation sites (based on the sequencing data, we observe two different poly-A sites and the TaG-EM barcode is located 35 and 60 bp upstream of these sites). Based on the location of the TaG-EM barcodes,150 bp reads is sufficient to see the barcode in any GFP-associated read (when using the 3’ gene expression workflow). In addition to detecting the expression of the TaG-EM barcodes in the 10x Genomics gene expression library, it is possible to make a separate library that enriches the barcode sequence (similar to hashtag or CITE-Seq feature barcode libraries). We have added experimental data where we successfully performed an enrichment of the TaG-EM barcodes and sequenced this as a separate hashtag library (Supplemental Figure 18). We have added text to the results describing this work and also included a detailed information in the methods for performing TaG-EM barcode enrichment during 10x library prep. 

      Results:

      “In antibody-conjugated oligo cell hashing approaches, sparsity of barcode representation is overcome by spiking in an additional primer at the cDNA amplification step and amplifying the hashtag oligo by PCR. We employed a similar approach to attempt to enrich for TaG-EM barcodes in an additional library sequenced separately from the 10x Genomics gene expression library. Our initial attempts at barcode enrichment using spike-in and enrichment primers corresponding to the TaG-EM PCR handle were unsuccessful (Supplemental Figure 18). However, we subsequently optimized the TaG-EM barcode enrichment by 1) using a longer spike-in primer that more closely matches the annealing temperature used during the 10x Genomics cDNA creation step, and 2) using a nested PCR approach to amplify the cell-barcode and unique molecular identifier (UMI)-labeled TaG-EM barcodes (Supplemental Figure 18). Using the enriched library, TaG-EM barcodes were detected in nearly 100% of the cells at high sequencing depths (Supplemental Figure 19). However, although we used a polymerase that has been engineered to have high processivity and that has been shown to reduce the formation of chimeric reads in other contexts (Gohl et al., 2016), it is possible that PCR chimeras could lead to unreliable detection events for some cells. Indeed, many cells had a mixture of barcodes detected with low counts and single or low numbers of associated UMIS. To assess the reliability of detection, we analyzed the correlation between barcodes detected in the gene expression library and the enriched TaG-EM barcode library as a function of the purity of TaG-EM barcode detection for each cell (the percentage of the most abundant detected TaG-EM barcode, Supplemental Figure 19). For TaG-EM barcode detections where the most abundance barcode was a high percentage of the total barcode reads detected (~75%-99.99%), there was a high correlation between the barcode detected in the gene expression library and the enriched TaG-EM barcode library. Below this threshold, the correlation was substantially reduced. 

      In the enriched library, we identified 26.8% of cells with a TaG-EM barcode reliably detected, a very modest improvement over the gene expression library alone (23.96%), indicating that at least for this experiment, the main constraint is sufficient expression of the TaG-EM barcode and not detection. To identify TaG-EM barcodes in the combined data set, we counted a positive detection as any barcode either identified in the gene expression library or any barcode identified in the enriched library with a purity of >75%. In the case of conflicting barcode calls, we assigned the barcode that was detected directly in the gene expression library. This increased the total fraction of cells where a barcode was identified to approximately 37% (Figure 6B).”

      Methods:

      “The resulting pool was prepared for sequencing following the 10x Genomics Single Cell 3’ protocol (version CG000315 Rev C), At step 2.2 of the protocol, cDNA amplification, 1 µl of TaG-EM spike-in primer (10 µM) was added to the reaction to amplify cDNA with the TaG-EM barcode. Gene expression cDNA and TaG-EM cDNA were separated using a double-sided SPRIselect (Beckman Coulter) bead clean up following 10x Genomics Single Cell 3’ Feature Barcode protocol, step 2.3 (version CG000317 Rev E). The gene expression cDNA was created into a library following the CG000315 Rev C protocol starting at section 3. Custom nested primers were used for enrichment of TaG-EM barcodes after cDNA creation using PCR.  The following primers were tested (see Supplemental Figure 18):

      UMGC_IL_TaGEM_SpikeIn_v1:

      GTGACTGGAGTTCAGACGTGTGCTCTTCCGATCTCTTCCAACAACCGGAAGT*G*A UMGC_IL_TaGEM_SpikeIn_v2:

      GTGACTGGAGTTCAGACGTGTGCTCTTCCGATCTGCAGCTTATAACTTCCAACAACCGGAAGT*G*A

      UMGC_IL_TaGEM_SpikeIn_v3:

      TGTGCTCTTCCGATCTGCAGCTTATAACTTCCAACAACCGGAAGT*G*A D701_TaGEM:

      CAAGCAGAAGACGGCATACGAGATCGAGTAATGTGACTGGAGTTCAGACGTGTGCTCTTCCGATCTGCAGC*T*T

      SI PCR Primer:

      AATGATACGGCGACCACCGAGATCTACACTCTTTCCCTACACGACGC*T*C

      UMGC_IL_DoubleNest:

      GTGACTGGAGTTCAGACGTGTGCTCTTCCGATCTGCAGCTTATAACTTCCAACAACCGG*A*A

      P5: AATGATACGGCGACCACCGA

      D701:

      GATCGGAAGAGCACACGTCTGAACTCCAGTCACATTACTCGATCTCGTATGCCGTCTTCTGCTTG

      D702:

      GATCGGAAGAGCACACGTCTGAACTCCAGTCACTCCGGAGAATCTCGTATGCCGTCTTCTGCTTG

      After multiple optimization trials, the following steps yielded ~96% on-target reads for the TaG-EM library (Supplemental Figure 18, note that for the enriched barcode data shown in Figure 6 and Supplemental Figure 19, a similar amplification protocol was used TaG-EM barcodes were amplified from the gene expression library cDNA and not the SPRI-selected barcode pool). TaG-EM cDNA was amplified with the following PCR reaction: 5 µl purified TaG-EM cDNA, 50 µl 2x KAPA HiFi ReadyMix (Roche), 2.5 µl UMGC_IL_DoubleNest primer (10 µM), 2.5 µl SI_PCR primer (10 µM), and 40 µl nuclease-free water. The reaction was amplified using the following cycling conditions: 98ºC for 2 minutes, followed by 15 cycles of 98ºC for 20 seconds, 63ºC for 30 seconds, 72ºC for 20 seconds, followed by 72ºC for 5 minutes. After the first PCR, the amplified cDNA was purified with a 1.2x SPRIselect (Beckman Coulter) bead cleanup with 80% ethanol washes and eluted into 40 µL of nuclease-water. A second round of PCR was run with following reaction: 5 µl purified TaG-EM cDNA, 50 µl 2x KAPA HiFi ReadyMix (Roche), 2.5 µl D702 primer (10 µM), 2.5 µl p5 Primer (10 µM), and 40 µl nuclease-free water. The reaction was amplified using the following cycling conditions: 98ºC for 2 minutes, followed by 10 cycles of 98ºC for 20 seconds, 63ºC for 30 seconds, 72ºC for 20 seconds, followed by 72ºC for 5 minutes. After the second PCR, the amplified cDNA was purified with a 1.2x SPRIselect (Beckman Coulter) bead cleanup with 80% ethanol washes and eluted into 40uL of nuclease-water. The resulting 3’ gene expression library and TaG-EM enrichment library were sequenced together following Scenario 1 of the BioLegend “Total-Seq-A Antibodies and Cell Hashing with 10x Single Cell 3’ Reagents Kit v3 or v3.1” protocol. Additional sequencing of the enriched TaG-EM library also done following Scenario 2 from the same protocol.” 

      When a given cell barcode is not associated with any TaG-EM barcode, then demultiplexing is impossible. This is a major problem, which is particularly visible in Figs 5 and S13. In 5F, BC4 is only detected in a couple of dozen cells, even though the Jon99Ciii marker of enterocytes is present in a much larger population (Fig 5C). Therefore, in this particular case, TaG-EM fails to detect most of the GFP-expressing cells. 

      Figure 5 in the original manuscript represented data from an experiment in which there were eight different TaG-EM barcoded samples present, including four replicates of the pan-midgut driver (each of which included enterocyte populations). One would not expect the BC4 enterocyte driver expression to be observed in all of the Jon99Ciii cells, since the majority of the GFP+ cells shown in the UMAP plot were likely derived from and are labeled by the pan-midgut driver-associated barcodes. Thus, the design and presentation of this particular experiment (in particular, the presence of eight distinct samples in the data set) is making the detection of the TaG-EM barcodes look sparser than it actually is. We have added a panel in both Figure 6B and Supplemental Figure 17B that shows the overall detection of barcodes in the enriched barcode library and gene expression library or the gene expression library only, respectively, for this experiment.

      However, the reviewer’s overall point regarding barcode detection is still valid in that if we consider all eight barcodes, we only see TaG-EM barcode labeling associated with about a quarter of all the cells in this gene expression library, or about 37% of cells when we include the enriched TaG-EM barcode library. While improving barcode detection will improve the yield and is necessary for some applications (such as robust detection of multiplets), we would argue that even at the current level of success this approach has significant utility. First, if one’s goal is to unambiguously label a cell cluster and trace it to a defined cell population in vivo, sparse labeling may be sufficient. Second, demultiplexing is still possible (as we demonstrate) but involves a trade off in yield (not every cell is recovered and there is some extra sequencing cost as some sequenced cells cannot be assigned to a barcode). 

      Similarly, in S13, most cells should express one of the four barcodes, however many of them (maybe up to half - this should be quantified) do not. Therefore, the claim (L277278) that "the pan-midgut driver were broadly distributed across the cell clusters" is misleading. Moreover, the hypothesis that "low expressing driver lines may result in particularly sparse labelling" (L331-333) is at least partially wrong, as Fig S13 shows that the same Gal4 driver can lead to very different levels of barcode coverage.

      As described above, since this experiment included eight different TaG-EM barcodes expressed by five different drivers, the expectation is that only about half of the cells in Figure S13 (now Figure S20) should express a TaG-EM barcode. It is not clear why BC2 is underrepresented in terms of the number of cells labeled and BC7 is overrepresented. We agree with the reviewer that this should be described more accurately in the paper and that it does impact our interpretation related to driver strength and barcode detection. We have revised this sentence in the discussion and also added additional text in the results describing the within driver variability seen in this experiment.

      Results text:

      “As expected, the barcodes expressed by the pan-midgut driver were broadly distributed across the cell clusters (Supplemental Figure 20). However, the number of cells recovered varied significantly among the four pan-midgut driver associated barcodes.”

      Discussion text:

      “It is likely that the strength of the Gal4 driver contributes to the labeling density. However, we also observed variable recovery of TaG-EM barcodes that were all driven by the same pan-midgut Gal4 driver (Supplemental Figure 20).”

      • Comparisons between TaG-EM and other, simpler methods for labelling individual cell populations are missing. For example, how would TaG-EM compare with expression of different fluorescent reporters, or a strategy based on the brainbow/flybow principle?

      The advantage of TaG-EM is that an arbitrarily large number of DNA barcodes can be used (contingent upon the availability of transgenic lines – we described 20 barcoded lines in our initial manuscript and we have now extended this collection to over 170 lines), while the number of distinguishable FPs is much lower. Brainbow/Flybow uses combinatorial expression of different FPs, but because this combinatorial expression is stochastic, tracing a single cell transcriptome to a defined cell population in vivo based on the FP signature of a Brainbow animal would likely not be possible (and would almost certainly be impossible at scale).

      • FACS data is missing throughout the paper. The authors should include data from their comparative flow cytometry experiment of TaG-EM cells with or without additional hexameric GFP, as well as FSC/SSC and fluorescence scatter plots for the FACS steps that they performed prior to scRNA-seq, at least in supplementary figures.

      We have added Supplemental Figures with the FACS data for all of the single cell sequencing data presented in the manuscript (Supplemental Figures 12 and 14).

      • The authors should show the whole data described in L229, including the cluster that they chose to delete. At least, they should provide more information about how many cells were removed. In any case, the fact that their data still contains a large number of debris and dead cells despite sorting out PI negative cells with FACS and filtering low abundance barcodes with Cellranger is concerning.

      This description was referring to the unprocessed Cellranger output (not filtered for low abundance barcodes). Prior to filtering for cell barcodes with high mitochondria or rRNA (or other processing in Seurat/Scanpy), we saw two clusters, one with low UMI counts and enrichment of mitochondrial genes (see Cellranger report below). 

      Author response image 1.

      These cell barcodes were removed by downstream quality filtering and the remaining cells showed expression of expected intestinal stem cell and enteroblast marker genes.

      Overall, although a method for genetic tagging cell populations prior to multiplexing in single-cell experiments would be extremely useful, the method presented here is inadequate. However, despite all the weaknesses listed above, the idea of barcodes expressed specifically in cells of interest deserves more consideration. If the authors manage to improve their design to resolve the major issues and demonstrate the benefits of their method more clearly, then TaG-EM could become an interesting option for certain applications.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment and hope that the above responses and additional experiments and data that we have added have helped to alleviate the noted weaknesses.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      In this manuscript, Mendana et al developed a multiplexing method - Targeted Genetically-Encoded Multiplexing or TaG-EM - by inserting a DNA barcode upstream of the polyadenylation site in a Gal4-inducible UAS-GFP construct. This Multiplexing method can be used for population-scale behavioral measurements or can potentially be used in single-cell sequencing experiments to pool flies from different populations. The authors created 20 distinctly barcoded fly lines. First, TaG-EM was used to measure phototaxis and oviposition behaviors. Then, TaG-EM was applied to the fly gut cell types to demonstrate its applications in single-cell RNA-seq for cell type annotation and cell origin retrieving.

      This TaG-EM system can be useful for multiplexed behavioral studies from nextgeneration sequencing (NGS) of pooled samples and for Transcriptomic Studies. I don't have major concerns for the first application, but I think the scRNA-seq part has several major issues and needs to be further optimized.

      Major concerns:

      (1) It seems the barcode detection rate is low according to Fig S9 and Fig 5F, J and N. Could the authors evaluate the detection rate? If the detection rate is too low, it can cause problems when it is used to decode cell types.

      See responses to Reviewer #1 on this topic above.  

      (2) Unsuccessful amplification of TaG-EM barcodes: The authors attempted to amplify the TaG-EM barcodes in parallel to the gene expression library preparation but encountered difficulties, as the resulting sequencing reads were predominantly offtarget. This unsuccessful amplification raises concerns about the reliability and feasibility of this amplification approach, which could affect the detection and analysis of the TaG-EM barcodes in future experiments.

      As noted above, we have now established a successful amplification protocol for the TaG-EM barcodes. This data is shown in Figure 6, and Supplemental Figures 18-19 and we have included a detailed information in the methods for performing TaG-EM barcode enrichment during 10x library prep. We have also included code in the paper’s Github repository for assigning TaG-EM barcodes from the enriched library to the associated 10x Genomics cell barcodes.

      (3) For Fig 5, the singe-cell clusters are not annotated. It is not clear what cell types are corresponding to which clusters. So, it is difficult to evaluate the accuracy of the assignment of barcodes.

      We have added annotation information for the cell clusters based on expression of cell-type-specific marker genes (Figure 6A, Supplemental Figures 16-17).

      (4) The scRNA-seq UMAP in Fig 5 is a bit strange to me. The fly gut epithelium contains only a few major cell types, including ISC, EB, EC, and EE. However, the authors showed 38 clusters in fig 5B. It is true that some cell types, like EE (Guo et al., 2019, Cell Reports), have sub-populations, but I don't expect they will form these many subtypes. There are many peripheral small clusters that are not shown in other gut scRNAseq studies (Hung et al., 2020; Li et al., 2022 Fly Cell Atlas; Lu et al., 2023 Aging Fly Cell Atlas). I suggest the authors try different data-processing methods to validate their clustering result.

      For all of the single cell experiments, after doublet and ambient RNA removal (as suggested below), we have reclustered the datasets and evaluated different resolutions using Clustree. As the Reviewer points out, there are different EE subtypes, as well as regionalized expression differences in EC and other cell populations, so more than four clusters are expected (an analysis of the adult midgut identified 22 distinct cell types). With this revised analysis our results more closely match the cell populations observed in other studies (though it should be noted that the referenced studies largely focus on the adult and not the larval stage).  

      (5) Different gut drivers, PMC-, PC-, EB-, EC-, and EE-GAL4, were used. The authors should carefully characterize these GAL4 expression in larval guts and validate sequencing data. For example, does the ratio of each cell type in Fig 5B reflect the in vivo cell type ratio? The authors used cell-type markers mostly based on the knowledge from adult guts, but there are significant morphological and cell ratio differences between larval and adult guts (e.g., Mathur...Ohlstein, 2010 Science).

      We have characterized the PC driver which is highlighted in Supplemental Figure 13, and the EC and EE drivers which are highlighted in Figure 6G-N in detail in larval guts and have added this data to the paper (Supplemental Figure 21). The EB driver was not characterized histologically as EB-specific antibodies are not currently available. The PMG-Gal4 line exhibits strong expression throughout the larval gut (Figure 5B and barcodes are recovered from essentially all of the larval gut cell clusters using this driver (Supplemental Figure 20). We don’t necessarily expect the ratios of cells observed in the scRNA-Seq data to reflect the ratios typically observed in the gut as we performed pooled flow sorting on a multiplexed set of eight genotypes and driver expression levels, flow sorting, and possibly other processing steps could all influence the relative abundance of different cell types. However, detailed characterization of these driver lines did reveal spatial expression patterns that help explain aspects of the scRNA-Seq data. We have also added the following text to the paper to further describe the characterization of the drivers:

      Results:

      “Detailed characterization of the EC-Gal4 line indicated that although this line labeled a high percentage of enterocytes, expression was restricted to an area at the anterior and middle of the midgut, with gaps between these regions and at the posterior (Supplemental Figure 21). This could explain the absence of subsets of enterocytes, such as those labeled by betaTry, which exhibits regional expression in R2 of the adult midgut (Buchon et al., 2013).”

      “Detailed characterization of the EE-Gal4 driver line indicated that ~80-85% of Prospero-positive enteroendocrine cells are labeled in the anterior and middle of the larval midgut, with a lower percentage (~65%) of Prospero-positive cells labeled in the posterior midgut (Supplemental Figure 21). As with the enterocyte labeling, and consistent with the Gal4 driver expression pattern, the EE-Gal4 expressed TaG-EM barcode 9 did not label all classes of enteroendocrine cells and other clusters of presumptive enteroendocrine cells expressing other neuropeptides such as Orcokinin, AstA, and AstC, or neuropeptide receptors such as CCHa2 (not shown) were also observed.”

      Methods:

      “Dissection and immunostaining

      Midguts from third instar larvae of driver lines crossed to UAS-GFP.nls or UAS-mCherry were dissected in 1xPBS and fixed with 4% paraformaldehyde (PFA) overnight at 4ºC. Fixed samples were washed with 0.1% PBTx (1xPBS + 0.1% Triton X-100) three times for 10 minutes each and blocked in PBTxGS (0.1% PBTx + 3% Normal Goat Serum) for 2–4 hours at RT. After blocking, midguts were incubated in primary antibody solution overnight at 4ºC. The next day samples were washed with 0.1% PBTx three times for 20 minutes each and were incubated in secondary antibody solution for 2–3 hours at RT (protected from light) followed by three washes with 0.1% PBTx for 20 minutes each. One µg/ml DAPI solution prepared in 0.1% PBTx was added to the sample and incubated for 10 minutes followed by washing with 0.1% PBTx three times for 10 minutes each. Finally, samples were mounted on a slide glass with 70% glycerol and imaged using a Nikon AX R confocal microscope. Confocal images were processed using Fiji software. 

      The primary antibodies used were rabbit anti-GFP (A6455,1:1000 Invitrogen), mouse anti-mCherry (3A11, 1:20 DSHB), mouse anti-Prospero (MR1A, 1:50 DSHB) and mouse anti-Pdm1 (Nub 2D4, 1:30 DSHB). The secondary antibodies used were goat antimouse and goat anti-rabbit IgG conjugated to Alexa 647 and Alexa 488 (1:200) (Invitrogen), respectively. Five larval gut specimens per Gal4 line were dissected and examined.”

      (6) Doublets are removed based on the co-expression of two barcodes in Fig 5A. However, there are also other possible doublets, for example, from the same barcode cells or when one cell doesn't have detectable barcode. Did the authors try other computational approaches to remove doublets, like DoubleFinder (McGinnis et al., 2019) and Scrublet (Wolock et al., 2019)?

      We have included DoubleFinder-based doublet removal in our data analysis pipeline. This is now described in the methods (see below).

      (7) Did the authors remove ambient RNA which is a common issue for scRNA-seq experiments?

      We have also used DecontX to remove ambient RNA. This is now described in the methods:

      “Datasets were first mapped and analyzed using the Cell Ranger analysis pipeline (10x Genomics). A custom Drosophila genome reference was made by combining the BDGP.28 reference genome assembly and Ensembl gene annotations. Custom gene definitions for each of the TaG-EM barcodes were added to the fasta genome file and .gtf gene annotation file. A Cell Ranger reference package was generated with the Cell Ranger mkref command. Subsequent single-cell data analysis was performed using the R package Seurat (Satija et al., 2015). Cells expressing less than 200 genes and genes expressed in fewer than three cells were filtered from the expression matrix. Next, percent mitochondrial reads, percent ribosomal reads cells counts, and cell features were graphed to determine optimal filtering parameters. DecontX (Yang et al., 2020) was used to identify empty droplets, to evaluate ambient RNA contamination, and to remove empty cells and cells with high ambient RNA expression. DoubletFinder (McGinnis et al., 2019) to identify droplet multiplets and remove cells classified as multiplets. Clustree (Zappia and Oshlack, 2018) was used to visualize different clustering resolutions and to determine the optimal clustering resolution for downstream analysis. Finally, SingleR (Aran et al., 2019) was used for automated cell annotation with a gut single-cell reference from the Fly Cell Atlas (Li et al., 2022). The dataset was manually annotated using the expression patterns of marker genes known to be associated with cell types of interest. To correlate TaG-EM barcodes with cell IDs in the enriched TaG-EM barcode library, a custom Python script was used (TaGEM_barcode_Cell_barcode_correlation.py), which is available via Github: https://github.com/darylgohl/TaG-EM.”

      (8) Why does TaG-EM barcode #4, driven by EC-GAL4, not label other classes of enterocyte cells such as betaTry+ positive ECs (Figures 5D-E)? similarly, why does TaG-EM barcode #9, driven by EE-GAL4, not label all EEs? Again, it is difficult to evaluate this part without proper data processing and accurate cell type annotation.

      As noted in the response to a comment by Reviewer #1 above, part of this apparent sparsity of labeling is due to the way that this experiment was designed and visualized. We have added a new Figure panel in both Figure 6B and Supplemental Figure 17B that shows the overall detection of barcodes in the enriched barcode library and gene expression library or the gene expression library only, respectively, to better illustrate the efficacy of barcode detection. See also the response to point 5 above. Both the lack of labelling of betaTry+ ECs and subsets of EEs is consistent with the expression patterns of the EC-Gal4 and EE-Gal4 drivers.

      (9) For Figure 2, when the authors tested different combinations of groups with various numbers of barcodes. They found remarkable consistency for the even groups. Once the numbers start to increase to 64, barcode abundance becomes highly variable (range of 12-18% for both male and female). I think this would be problematic because the differences seen in two groups for example may be due to the barcode selection rather than an actual biologically meaningful difference.

      While there is some barcode-to-barcode variability for different amplification conditions, the magnitude of this variation is relatively consistent across the conditions tested. We looked at the coefficient of variation for the evenly pooled barcodes or for the staggered barcodes pooled at different relative levels. While the absolute magnitude of the variation is higher for the highly abundant barcodes in the staggered conditions, the CVs for these conditions (0.186 for female flies and for 0.163 male flies) were only slightly above the mean CV (0.125) for all conditions (see Supplemental Figure 3):

      We have added this analysis as Supplemental Figure 3 and added the following text to the paper:(

      “The coefficients of variation were largely consistent for groups of TaG-EM barcodes pooled evenly or at different levels within the staggered pools (Supplemental Figure 3).”

      (10) Barcode #14 cannot be reliably detected in oviposition experiment. This suggests that the BC 14 fly line might have additional mutations in the attp2 chromosome arm that affects this behavior. Perhaps other barcode lines also have unknown mutations and would cause issues for other untested behaviors. One possible solution is to backcross all 20 lines with the same genetic background wild-type flies for >7 generations to make all these lines to have the same (or very similar) genetic background. This strategy is common for aging and behavior assays.

      See response to Reviewer #1 above on this topic.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      The work addresses challenges in linking anatomical information to transcriptomic data in single-cell sequencing. It proposes a method called Targeted Genetically-Encoded Multiplexing (TaG-EM), which uses genetic barcoding in Drosophila to label specific cell populations in vivo. By inserting a DNA barcode near the polyadenylation site in a UASGFP construct, cells of interest can be identified during single-cell sequencing. TaG-EM enables various applications, including cell type identification, multiplet droplet detection, and barcoding experimental parameters. The study demonstrates that TaGEM barcodes can be decoded using next-generation sequencing for large-scale behavioral measurements. Overall, the results are solid in supporting the claims and will be useful for a broader fly community. I have only a few comments below:

      We thank the reviewer for these positive comments.

      Specific comments:

      (1) The authors mentioned that the results of structure pool tests in Fig. 2 showed a high level of quantitative accuracy in detecting the TaG-EM barcode abundance. Although the data were generally consistent with the input values in most cases, there were some obvious exceptions such as barcode 1 (under-represented) and barcodes 15, 20 (overrepresented). It would be great if the authors could comment on these and provide a guideline for choosing the appropriate barcode lines when implementing this TaG-EM method.

      See the response to point 9 from Reviewer 2. Although there seem to be some systematic differences in barcode amplification, the coefficient of variation was relatively consistent across all of the barcode combinations and relative input levels that we examined. Our recommendation (described in the text) is to average across 3-4 independent barcodes (which yielded a R2 values of >0.99 with expected abundance in the structured pooled tests).  

      (2) In Supplemental Figure 6, the authors showed GFP antibody staining data with 20 different TaG-EM barcode lines. The variability in GFP antibody staining results among these different TaG-EM barcode lines concerns the use of these TaG-EM barcode lines for sequencing followed by FACS sorting of native GFP. I expected the native GFP expression would be weaker and much more variable than the GFP antibody staining results shown in Supplemental Figure 6. If this is the case, variation of tissue-specific expression of TaG-EM barcode lines will likely be a confounding factor.

      Aside from barcode 8, which had a mutation in the GFP coding sequence, we did not see significant variability in expression levels either in the wing disc. Subtle differences seen in this figure most likely result from differences in larval staging. Similar consistent native (unstained) GFP expression of the TaG-EM constructs was seen in crosses with Mhc-Gal4 (described above). 

      (3) As the authors mentioned in the manuscript, multiple barcodes for one experimental condition would be a better experimental design. Could the authors suggest a recommended number of barcodes for each experiential condition? 3? 4? Or more? 

      See response to Reviewer #3, point number 1 above.

      (3b) Also, it would be great if the authors could provide a short discussion on the cost of such TaG-EM method. For example, for the phototaxis assay, if it is much more expensive to perform TaG-EM as compared to manually scoring the preference index by videotaping, what would be the practical considerations or benefits of doing TaG-EM over manual scoring?

      While this will vary depending on the assay and the scale at which one is conducting experiments, we have added an analysis of labor savings for the larval gut motility assay (Supplemental Figure 8). We have also added the following text to the Discussion describing some of the trade-offs to consider in assessing the potential benefit of incorporating TaG-EM into behavioral measurements:

      “While the utility of TaG-EM barcode-based quantification will vary based on the number of conditions being analyzed and the ease of quantifying the behavior or phenotype by other means, we demonstrate that TaG-EM can be employed to cost-effectively streamline labor-intensive assays and to quantify phenotypes with small effect sizes (Figure 4, Supplemental Figure 8).”

      Recommendations for the authors:  

      While recognising the potential of the TaG-EM methodology, we had a few major concerns that the authors might want to consider addressing:

      As stated above, we are grateful to the reviewers and editor for their thoughtful comments. We have addressed many of the points below in our responses above, so we will briefly respond to these points and where relevant direct the reader to comments above.

      (1) We were concerned about the efficacy of TaG-EM in assessing more complex behaviours than oviposition and phototaxis. We note that Barcode #14 cannot be reliably detected in oviposition experiment. This suggests that the BC 14 fly line might have additional mutations in the attp2 chromosome arm that affects this behavior. Perhaps other barcode lines also have unknown mutations and would cause issues for other untested behaviors. One possible solution is to back-cross all 20 lines with the same genetic background wild-type flies for >7 generations to make all these lines to have the same (or very similar) genetic background. This strategy is common for aging and behavior assays.

      See response to Reviewer #1 and Reviewer #2, item 10, above.

      (2) We were unable to assess the drop-out rates of the TaG-EM barcode from the sequencing. The barcode detection rate is low (Fig S9 and Fig 5F, J and N). This would be a considerable drawback (relating to both experimental design and cost), if a large proportion of the cells could not be assigned an identity.

      See comments above addressing this point.

      (3) The effectiveness of TaG-EM scRNA-seq on the larvae gut is not very effective - the cells are not well annotated, the barcodes seem not to have labelled expected cell types (ECs and EEs), and there is no validation of the Gal4 drivers in vivo.

      See previous comments. We have addressed specific comments above on data processing and annotation, included a visualization of the overall effectiveness of labeling, added a protocol and data on enriched TaG-EM barcode libraries, and have added detailed characterization of the Gal4 drivers in the larval gut (Figure 6, Supplemental Figures 17-21).

      (4) A formal assessment of the cost-effectiveness would be an important consideration in broad uptake of the methodology.

      While this is difficult to do in a comprehensive manner given the breadth of potential applications, we have included estimates of labor savings for one of the behavioral assays that we tested (Supplemental Figure 8). We have also included a discussion of some of the factors that would make TaG-EM useful or cost-effective to apply for behavioral assays (see response to Reviewer #3, comment 3b, above). We have also added the following text to the discussion to address the cost considerations in applying TaG-EM for scRNA-Seq:

      “For single cell RNA-Seq experiments, the cost savings of multiplexing is roughly the cost of a run divided by the number of independent lines multiplexed, plus labor savings by also being able to multiplex upstream flow cytometry, minus loss of unbarcoded cells. Our experiments indicated that for the specific drivers we tested TaG-EM barcodes are detected in around one quarter of the cells if relying on endogenous expression in the gene expression library, though this fraction was higher (~37%) if sequencing an enriched TaG-EM barcode library in parallel (Figure 6, Supplemental Figures 18-19).”

      (5) Similarly, a formal assessment of the effect of the insertion on the variability in GFP expression and the behaviour needs to be documented.

      See responses to Reviewer #1, Reviewer #2, item 9, and Reviewer #3, item 2 above.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (in no particular order of importance)

      • L84-85: the authors should either expand, or remove this statement. Indeed, lack of replicates is only true if one ignores that each cell in an atlas is indeed a replicate. Therefore, depending on the approach or question, this statement is inaccurate.

      This sentence was meant to refer to experiments where different experimental conditions are being compared and not to more descriptive studies such as cell atlases. We have revised this sentence to clarify.

      “Outside of descriptive studies, these costs are also a barrier to including replicates to assess biological variability; consequently, a lack of biological replicates derived from independent samples is a common shortcoming of single-cell sequencing experiments.”

      • L103-104: this sentence is unclear.

      We have revised this sentence as follows:

      “Genetically barcoded fly lines can also be used to enable highly multiplexed behavioral assays which can be read out using high throughput sequencing.”

      • In Fig S1 it is unclear why there are more than 20 different sequences in panel B where the text and panel A only mention the generation of 20 distinct constructs. This should be better explained.

      The following text was added to the Figure legend to explain this discrepancy:

      “Because the TaG-EM barcode constructs were injected as a pool of 29 purified plasmids, some of the transgenic lines had inserts of the same construct. In total 20 unique lines were recovered from this round of injection.”

      • It would be interesting to compare the efficiency of TaG-EM driven doublet removal (Fig 5A) with standard doublet-removing software (e.g., DoubletFinder, McGinnis et al., 2019).

      We have done this comparison, which is now shown in Supplemental Figure 15.

      • I would encourage the authors to check whether barcode representation in Fig S13  can be correlated to average library size, as one would expect libraries with shorter reads to be more likely to include the 14-bp barcode and therefore more accurately recapitulate TaG-EM barcode expression.

      These are not independent sequencing libraries, but rather data from barcodes that were multiplexed in a single flow sort, 10x droplet capture, and sequencing library. Thus, there must be some other variable that explains the differential recovery of these barcodes.

      • Fig 4A should appear earlier in the paper.

      We have moved Figure 4A from the previous manuscript (a schematic showing the detailed design of the TaG-EM construct) to Figure 1A in the revised version.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor:

      (1) There is a typo for Fig S13 figure legends: BC1, BC1, BC3... should be BC1, BC2, BC3.

      Fixed.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Comments to authors:

      (1) It would be great if the authors could provide an additional explanation on how these 29 barcode sequences were determined.

      Response: This information is in the Methods section. For the original cloned plasmids:

      “Expected construct size was verified by diagnostic digest with _Eco_RI and _Apa_LI. DNA concentration was determined using a Quant-iT PicoGreen dsDNA assay (Thermo Fisher Scientific) and the randomer barcode for each of the constructs was determined by Sanger sequencing using the following primers:

      SV40_post_R: GCCAGATCGATCCAGACATGA

      SV40_5F: CTCCCCCTGAACCTGAAACA”

      For transgenic flies, after DNA extraction and PCR enrichment (details also in the Methods section):

      “The barcode sequence for each of the independent transgenic lines was determined by Sanger sequencing using the SV40_5F and SV40_PostR primers.”

      (2) Why did the authors choose myr-GFP as the backbone instead of nls-GFP if the downstream application is to perform sequencing?

      We initially chose myr::GFP as we planned to conduct single cell and not single nucleus sequencing and myr::GFP has the advantage of labeling cell membranes which could facilitate the characterization or confirmation of cell type-specific expression, particularly in the nervous system. However, we have considered making a version of the TaG-EM construct with a nuclear targeted GFP (thereby enabling “NucEM”). In the Discussion, we mention this possibility as well as the possibility of using a second nuclear-GFP construct in conjunction with TaG-EM lines is nuclear enrichment is desired:

      “In addition, while the original TaG-EM lines were made using a membrane-localized myr::GFP construct, variants that express GFP in other cell compartments such as the cytoplasm or nucleus could be constructed to enable increased expression levels or purification of nuclei. Nuclear labeling could also be achieved by co-expressing a nuclear GFP construct with existing TaG-EM lines in analogy to the use of hexameric GFP described above.”

      Minor comments:

      (1) Line 193, Supplemental Figure 4 should be Supplemental Figure 5

      Fixed.

      (2) Scale bars should be added in Figure 4, Supplemental Figures 6, 7, and 8A.

      We have added scale bars to these figures and also included scale bars in additional Supplemental Figures detailing characterization of the gut driver lines.

      (3) Were Figure 4C and Supplemental Figure 7 data stained with a GFP antibody?

      No, this is endogenous GFP signal. This is now noted in the Figure legends.

      (4) Line 220, specify the three barcode lines (lines #7, 8, 9) in the text. 

      Added this information.

      Same for Lines 251-254. Line 258, which 8 barcode Gal4 line combinations?

      (5) Line 994, typo: (BC1, BC1, BC3, and BC7)-> (BC1, BC2, BC3, and BC7)

      Fixed.

      (6) Figure 5 F, J and N, add EC-Gal4, EB-Gal4, and EE-Gal4 above each panel to improve readability.

      We have added labels of the cell type being targeted (leftmost panels), the barcode, and the marker gene name to Figure 6 C-N.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      Public Reviews: 

      Reviewer #1 Comments on revisions: 

      The authors have addressed my concerns so I am fine with revision in principle.

      Thank you for taking the time to review our work and for your thoughtful feedback. We’re glad to hear that your concerns have been addressed.

      Reviewer #2 Comments on revisions:

      The authors have addressed many of the concerns raised in the initial review and provided alternative analytical approaches to address the relevant questions in this revision. Some of these are useful; however, they have not fully addressed one critical point. 

      In my original critique, I noted that the maternal KO might not be suitable as a control, given that there is no significant phenotypic difference between the maternal-only KO and the maternal-zygotic KO. While we did not dispute the molecular differences presented in Figure 2, so how the authors conclude in the Response "embryos with a maternal KO or zygotic heterozygous KO of Oct4 or Sox2 show no noticeable ... molecular difference (Figure 2-figure supplement 4A)"? The authors should recheck whether this is a typographical error or a valid statement. 

      Additionally, I recommend the removal of phrases such as "absolutely priority" and "pivotal" throughout the manuscript, as these terms are overly assertive without sufficient supporting evidence.

      We sincerely appreciate the reviewer’s feedback and would like to take this opportunity to provide further clarification, as there might have been a misunderstanding.

      We respectfully disagree with the reviewer’s statement that “there is no significant phenotypic difference between the maternal-only KO and the maternal-zygotic KO.” Based on privious publications, there is clear evidence that maternal-zygotic KO embryos exhibit significant defects: they fail to form a healthy primitive endoderm, are unable to give rise to embryonic stem cells (ESCs) in vitro, and die shortly after implantation (Frum et al., Dev Cell 2013; Wu et al., Nat Cell Biol 2013; Le Bin et al., Development 2014; Wicklow et al., PLoS Genet 2014). In contrast, maternal-only KO embryos develop as healthy as wild-type (WT) embryos and do not display any of these phenotypic abnormalities. We believe that this distinction validates our use of maternal KO embryos as proper controls in our experiments. 

      To address the reviewer’s concerns and ensure clarity, we have also revised the following statement in the manuscript.

      Original manuscript: “Mouse embryos with a maternal KO or zygotic heterozygous KO of either factor show no noticeable phenotype or molecular difference (Figure 2-figure supplement 4A) (Avilion et al., 2003; Frum et al., 2013; Kehler et al, 2004; Nichols et al., 1998; Wicklow et al., 2014; Wu et al., 2013).” 

      Revised manuscript: “Maternal KO embryos (circles in Figure 2—figure supplement 4A) clustered together with wildtype embryos (triangles and squares) in the PCA analysis, consistent with previous studies reporting no observable phenotype in maternal KO embryos (Avilion et al., 2003; Frum et al., 2013; Kehler et al, 2004; Nichols et al., 1998; Wicklow et al., 2014; Wu et al., 2013).”

      While we acknowledge the potential for using maternal-only KO controls to underestimate differences between control and KO samples, we believe this approach does not introduce false positives in our RNA-seq and ATAC-seq experiments, only the possibility of more conservative conclusions. This minimizes the risk of overestimating the molecular impact.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s recommendation regarding the use of overly assertive terms. Upon careful review of the manuscript and response letter, we could not find instances of the term “absolutely priority.” However, we do use the term “pivotal” and would prefer to retain it as we believe it accurately reflects the importance of the findings presented in our manuscript.

      Thank you for your thoughtful comments and suggestions! We hope this response clarifies our rationale and addresses the concerns.

      ---

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review)

      Summary:

      Numerous mechanism and structural studies reported the cooperative role of Oct4 and Sox2 during the establishment of pluripotency during reprogramming. Due to the difficulty in sample collection and RNA-seq with low-number cells, the precise mechanisms remain in early embryos. This manuscript reported the role of OCT4 and SOX2 in mouse early embryos using knockout models with low-input ATAC-seq and RNA-seq. Compared to the control, chromatin accessibility and transcriptome were affected when Oct4 and Sox2 were deleted in early ICM. Specifically, decreased ATAC-seq peaks showed enrichment of Motifs of TF such as OCT, SOX, and OCT-SOX, indicating their importance during early development. Moreover, by deep analysis of ATAC-seq and RNA-seq data, they found Oct4 and Sox2 target enhancer to activate their downstream genes. In addition, they also uncovered the role of OS during development from the morula to ICM, which provided the scientific community with a more comprehensive understanding.

      Strengths:

      On the whole, the manuscript is innovative, and the conclusions of this paper are mostly well supported by data, however, there are some issues that need to be addressed.

      Weaknesses:

      Major Points:

      (1) In Figure 1, a more detailed description of the knockout strategy should be provided to clarify itself. The knockout strategy in Fig1 is somewhat obscure, such as how is OCT4 inactivated in Oct4mKO2 heterozygotes. As shown in Figure 1, the exon of OCT4 is not deleted, and its promoter is not destroyed. Therefore, how does OCT4 inactivate to form heterozygotes?

      Thank you for helping clarify this. We will add a detailed description of the knockout strategy in the legends for Figure 1A and 1B, as shown below. Note that the same strategy was used by Nichols et al (Cell, 1998).

      Figure 1A. Schemes of mKO2-labeled Oct4 KO (Oct4<sup>mKO2</sup>) and Oct4<sup>flox</sup> alleles. In the Oct4<sup>mKO2</sup> allele, a PGK-pac∆tk-P2A-mKO2-pA cassette was inserted 3.6 kb upstream of the Oct4 transcription start site (TSS) and a promoter-less FRT-SA-IRES-hph-P2A-Venus-pA cassette was inserted into Oct4 intron 1. The inclusion of a stop codon followed by three sets of polyadenylation signal sequences (pA) after the Venus cassette ensures both transcriptional and translational termination, effectively blocking the expression of Oct4 exons 2–5.

      Figure 1B. Schemes of EGFP-labeled Sox2 KO (Sox2<sup>EGFP</sup>) and Sox2 <sup>flox</sup> alleles. In the Sox2 Sox2<sup>EGFP</sup> allele, the 5’ untranslated region (UTR), coding sequence and a portion of the 3’ UTR of Sox2 were deleted and replaced with a PGK-EGFP-pA cassette. Notably, 1,023 bp of the Sox2 3’UTR remain intact.

      (2) Is ZP3-Cre expressed in the zygotes? Is there any residual protein?

      This is indeed a very important issue. Here is why we think we are on the safe side. ZP3 is specifically expressed in growing oocytes, thus making ZP3-Cre a widely used tool for deleting maternally inherited alleles. When we crossed Oct4<sup>flox/flox</sup>; ZP3-Cre<sup>-</sup>_females with _Oct4<sup>flox/flox</sup>; ZP3-Cre<sup>+</sup> males, we got ZP3-Cre<sup>+</sup> Oct4<sup>flox/flox</sup> but no Oct4<sup> flox/∆</sup> or Oct4<sup> ∆/∆</sup> pups, suggesting that the paternally inherited ZP3-Cre allele is not functionally active in zygotes, which is consistent with reports from other researchers (e.g. Frum, et al., Dev Cell 2013; Wu, et al., Nat Cell Biol 2013).

      (3) What motifs are enriched in the rising ATAC-seq peaks after knocking out of OCT4 and SOX2?

      The enriched motifs in the rising ATAC-seq peaking in Oct4 KO and Sox2 KO ICMs are the GATA, TEAD, EOMES and KLF motifs, as shown in Figure 4A and Figure supplement 7.

      (4) The ordinate of Fig4c is lost.

      Thank you for pointing this out. The y-axis is average normalized signals (reads per million-normalized pileup signals). We will add it in the revised version.

      (5) Signals of H3K4me1, H3K27ac, and so on are usually used to define enhancers, and the loci of enhancers vary greatly in different cells. In the manuscript, the authors defined ATAC-seq peaks far from the TSS as enhancers. The definition in this manuscript is not strictly an enhancer.

      Thank you for this insightful comment. We analyzed the published H3K27ac ChIP-seq data of mouse ICM at 94-96 h post hCG (B. Liu, et al., Nat Cell Biol 2024) to assess the enrichment of H3K27ac around our ATAC-seq peaks. Unfortunately, the data quality is poor, e.g., inconsistent across replicates (Author response image 1A), and shows little enrichment around the well-defined enhancers (Author response image 1B). Nevertheless, as we admit not all the distal ATAC-seq peaks or open chromatin regions are enhancers, we have replaced “enhancers” with “open chromatin regions”, “ATAC-seq peaks” or “putative enhancers”.

      Author response image 1.

      Analysis of the published H3K27ac ChIP-seq dataset of mouse ICM at 94-96 h post hCG (B. Liu, et al., Nat Cell Biol 2024). A. ChIP-seq profiles of H3K27ac over the decreased, unchanged and increased ATAC-seq peaks in our Oct4-KO late ICMs. To exclude spurious peaks, only strong unchanged peaks (57,512 out of 142,096) were used in the analysis. B. IGV tracks displaying ATAC-seq and H3K27ac ChIP-seq profiles around Dppa3 and Oct4. Red boxes mark the known OCT-SOX enhancers.

      (6) If Oct4 and Sox2 truly activate sap 30 and Uhrf 1, what effect does interfere with both genes have on gene expression and chromatin accessibility?

      This is indeed an interesting question. Unfortunately, we have not conducted this specific experiment, so we do not have direct results. However, Sap30 is a key component of the mSin3A corepressor complex, while Uhrf1 regulates the establishment and maintenance of DNA methylation. Both proteins are known to function as repressors. Therefore, we hypothesize that interfering with these two genes could alleviate repression of some genes, such as trophectoderm markers, similar to what we have observed in Oct4 KO and Sox2 KO ICMs.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      In this manuscript, Hou et al. investigate the interplay between OCT4 and SOX2 in driving the pluripotent state during early embryonic lineage development. Using knockout (KO) embryos, the authors specifically analyze the transcriptome and chromatin state within the ICM-to-EPI developmental trajectory. They emphasize the critical role of OCT4 and the supportive function of SOX2, along with other factors, in promoting embryonic fate. Although the paper presents high-quality data, several key claims are not well-supported, and direct evidence is generally lacking.

      Major Points:

      (1) Although the authors claim that both maternal KO and maternal KO/zygotic hetero KO mice develop normally, the molecular changes in these groups appear overestimated. A wildtype control is recommended for a more robust comparison. (a complementary comment from the reviewer: “Both maternal KO and maternal-zygotic KO in this study exhibited phenotypic consistency but molecular disparity. Specifically, both KO and control groups could develop normally; however, their chromatin landscapes and transcriptomic profiles showed different. This raises the question of whether the molecular differences are real. We suggest that inclusion of a completely wild-type control group would make the comparison more robust.”)

      Thank you for your feedback as this point was obviously not clear in the manuscript. Here is our explanation: Mouse embryos with a maternal KO or zygotic heterozygous KO of Oct4 or Sox2 show no noticeable phenotype or molecular difference (Figure 2-figure supplement 4A) (Avilion et al., 2003; Frum et al., 2013; Kehler et al, 2004; Nichols et al., 1998; Wicklow et al., 2014; Wu et al., 2013). We have clarified this point in the revised manuscript.

      (2) The authors assert that OCT4 and SOX2 activate the pluripotent network via the OCT-SOX enhancer. However, the definition of this enhancer is based solely on proximity to TSSs, which is a rough approximation. Canonical enhancers are typically located in intronic and intergenic regions and marked by H3K4me1 or H3K27ac. Re-analyzing enhancer regions with these standards could be beneficial. Additionally, the definitions of "close to" or "near" in lines 183-184 are unclear and not defined in the legends or methods.

      Thank you for this insightful and helpful comment. As stated in the response to Reviewer #1’s point (5), we have replaced “enhancers” with “open chromatin regions”, “ATAC-seq peaks” or “putative enhancers”.

      The definition of "close to" or "near" in lines 183-184 is in the legend of Figure 2E and Methods. In the GSEA analysis, Ensembl protein-coding genes with TSSs located within 10 kb of ATAC-seq peak centers were included, so that some of the intronic ATAC-seq peaks were taken into consideration. We have also added the information in the main text of the revised manuscript.

      (3) There is no evidence that the decreased peaks/enhancers could be the direct targets of Oct4 and Sox2 throughout this manuscript. Figures 2 and 4 show only minimal peak annotations related to OCT and SOX motifs, and there is a lack of chromatin IP data. Therefore, claims about direct targets are not substantiated and should be appropriately revised.

      Yes indeed, you have a point. In Figure Supplement 3C, we analyzed the published Sox2 CUT&RUN data from E4.5 ICMs (Li et al., Science, 2023), which demonstrates that the reduced ATAC-seq peaks in our Sox2 KO ICMs are enriched with the Sox2 CUT&RUN signals. Unfortunately, we did not to find similar published data for Oct4 in embryos. We have removed the statement indicating that these are the direct targets in the revised manuscript.

      (4) Lines 143-146 lack direct data to support the claim. Actually, the main difference in cluster 1, 11 and 3, 8, 14 is whether the peak contains OCT-SOX motif. However, the reviewer cannot get any information of peaks activated by OCT4 rather than SOX2 in cluster 1, 11.

      Thank you for the comment that we hope we can clarify.

      Lines 143-146 are: “Notably, the peaks activated by Oct4 but not by Sox2 in the ICM tended to be already open at the morula stage (Figure 2B, clusters 1 and 11), whereas those dependent on both Oct4 and Sox2 became open in the ICM (Figure 2B, clusters 3, 8 and 14).”

      We agree with you that clusters 3/8/14 are more enriched in OCT-SOX motifs than clusters 1/11. However, this is consistent with our observation that accessibility of peaks in clusters 1 and 11 relies mainly on Oct4, while accessibility in clusters 3, 8, 14 depends on both Oct4 and Sox2. But maybe the term “activate” is misleading. We have rephrased the text as below:

      “Notably, compared to the peaks that depend on Oct4 but not Sox2 (Figure 2B, clusters 1 and 11), those reliant on both Oct4 and Sox2 show greater enrichment of the OCT-SOX motif (Figure 2B, clusters 3, 8 and 14). The former group was generally already open in the morula, while the latter group only became open in the ICM. “

      Minor Points:

      (1) Lines 153-159: The figure panel does not show obvious enrichment of SOX2 signals or significant differences in H3K27ac signals across clusters, thus not supporting the claim.

      We hope to be able to explain this.

      Line 153-159 refer to two datasets:  Figure Supplement 3C and 3D.

      In Figure Supplement 3C, the average plots above the heatmaps show that the decreased ATAC-seq peaks (the indigo lines) have higher enrichment with Sox2 CUT&RUN signals than the increased or unchanged peaks (the yellow and light blue lines, respectively).

      In Figure Supplement 3D, the average plots indicate that H3K27ac signals around the center of the decreased ATAC-seq peaks (the indigo line) show higher enrichment compared to the unaltered and decreased groups (the light blue and yellow lines, respectively). Notably, H3K27ac enrichment appears slightly offset from the central nucleosome-free regions.

      (2) Lines 189-190: The term "identify" is overstated for the integrative analysis of RNA-seq and ATAC-seq, which typically helps infer TF targets rather than definitively identifying them.

      You are right. We have replaced “identify” with “infer” in the revised manuscript.

      (3) The Discussion is lengthy and should be condensed.

      We have shortened the discussion in the revised manuscript.

    1. Author Response

      Review 1:

      Major concerns that need to be addressed:

      Investigate the effects of Malat1 on the clearance of Listeria or LCMV.

      In our prior publication (Gagnon et al, Cell Reports) we showed that miR-15/16 deficiency in T cells does not affect the clearance of LCMV, and that transferred memory T cells formed in these mice can function normally to clear a secondary infection with Listeria expressing the LCMV gp33 peptide. However, the size of the memory pool was clearly changed, as was the programming of memory cells. Here, we show that disrupting miR15/16 binding to MALAT1 induces a reciprocal phenotype, validating a biological function for this RNA:RNA interaction. We employed these systems because they are widely used to reveal key aspects of T cell memory, but both infections are readily cleared by the host. These changes in the memory response likely play a limiting role in some biological context(s), and we agree that further investigation to uncover such situations would further validate the importance of this RNA circuit.

      Demonstrate that Malat1 shuttles to the cytosol, this will strengthen the conclusions that Malat1 sponges miR15/16.

      The location of miR-15/16 interaction with Malat1 is an interesting area for future study. Many prior studies have shown clearly that Malat1 is primarily located in the nucleus, but since T cells express such a large excess of this lncRNA, even the remaining fraction detected in the cytosol may be sufficient to “sponge” a significant amount of miR-15/16. Alternatively, these molecules may interact in the nucleus, or during mitosis. As the reviewer suggests, Malat1 may shuttle between compartments, raising the intriguing possibility that it could not only “sponge” but “drag” miR-15/16 away from its targets into the nucleus. A proper analysis of the mechanism of ceRNA function is beyond the scope of this paper, but we do believe that this circuit may be an especially good one for further study.

      Through flow cytometry or immunoblot analyses, investigate the effects of Malat1-miR15/16 on genes listed in table 3. This would add credence to the sequencing and CLIP data.

      We thank the reviewer for bringing to our attention the manuscript’s overemphasis on the former Table 3 gene set, which represented just a few of the hundreds of genes for which our data provide evidence for miR-15/16 binding and inhibition of expression. We have removed this table to avoid the appearance of suggesting an oversimplified model for how miR-15/16 regulate T cell responses, and replaced it with a short description of two targets (Pik3r1 and Mapk8) that link the roles of miR-15/16 in T cell activation and tumor suppression. Like transcription factors, miRNAs function as network regulators of gene expression, gaining biological power through their ability to coregulate many genes with convergent effects on cell behavior. In the case of miR-15/16, our published data, reinforced by the data in this manuscript, indicates that the relevant target network is very large, and that even very small changes in the expression of these targets is sufficient to alter the fate of antigen-responsive T cells in the setting of acute infection.

      This comment also raises the important issue of target validation, which is often difficult, since the effect size for each miRNA target is small (typically 10-30%, sometimes reaching 50% reduction). The expected effect of Malat1 inhibition of miR-15/16 is some fraction of that. Nevertheless, in Figure 3 and Figure 7, we validated two direct targets (CD28 and Bcl2) using flow cytometry, a technique that facilitates precise sampling of protein expression on a large number of individual cells.

      Minor concerns:

      The discussion is too broad and does not address the limitations of the study.

      We added a sentence to acknowledge the limitation regarding small effect sizes and the shortcomings of the acute infection models used in this study:

      “The magnitude of this effect was modest in acute LCMV and Listeria infection, two models that feature robust pathogen clearance, allowing assessment of memory T cells in the absence of chronic antigen persistence. Further work is needed to assess other settings in which Malat1:miR-15/16 interaction may have a bigger impact on the outcome of immune responses.”

      Reviewer 2:

      1) Given the lack of an effect on microRNA or Malat1 levels following the genetic modification is it possible that Malat1 is actually not directly bound by the miRNA? Could the knock-out of the miRNA could induce Ago2 loss on Malat1 by indirect mechanisms? If there is any room for doubt about a direct interaction the authors should at least mention discuss.

      There is very little room for doubt about the direct interaction between miR-15/16 and Malat1. The AHC data we report indicates that the loss of Ago2 binding to the mutant Malat1 occurs predominantly at the site containing the miR-15/16 binding site of interest. This suggests that the mutation we created does not affect global Ago2 levels or occupancy across the rest of the transcript. Further, the miR-15/16 KO data directly support this result, showing that miR-15/16 is necessary for Ago2 binding at that site. If loss of miR15/16 resulted in a non-specific indirect loss of binding to Malat1, we would expect that other binding events would be affected as well, which we do not observe.

      In the Results, the authors write: "miR-15/16 has not been previously shown to interact with Malat1", but they should cite/discuss: MALAT1 regulates the transcriptional and translational levels of proto-oncogene RUNX2 in colorectal cancer metastasis, Qing Ji et al, 2019.

      We thank the reviewer for bringing this study to our attention, and we have cited it in our updated version of the manuscript. While the interaction between miR-15/16 and Malat1 has been shown before, our study represents a significant step beyond this study in two important ways: The rigorous biochemical mapping of the miR-15/16:Malat1 interaction site, and direct evidence for the role of a miR:lncRNA interaction in an in vivo physiological phenotype.

      2) The authors write: "Only a few studies demonstrate sequence dependent function of lncRNAs (Elguindy and Mendell, 2021; Kleaveland et al., 2018; Lee et al., 1999)". But this seems more common that the statement implies (see for example this review: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002228361200896 0#s0065).Moreover, SNPs in lncRNAs are associated with pathologies (see for example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6306726/, where also SNPs in Malat1 are presented). The authors could acknowledge this and by reformulating their sentence and citing these.

      A large number of studies uncovered lncRNA functions without identifying RNA sequences that are responsible for that activity, but evidence for sequence-specific effects remain rare. We thank the reviewer for providing direction to additional sequence-specific studies and we have now cited several of them in the updated version of the introduction:

      “Studies demonstrating sequence dependent function of lncRNAs are comparatively rare (Carrieri et al., 2012; Elguindy and Mendell, 2021; Faghihi et al., 2008; Gong and Maquat, 2011; Kleaveland et al., 2018; Lee et al., 1999; Yoon et al., 2012).”

      In particular, association of important SNPs with lncRNA loci is an exciting motivator in the study of lncRNAs and can be informative in the dissection of lncRNA function. For Malat1 in the linked Minotti et al publication, we do not believe the SNPs referenced represent indications of sequence-specific transcript function. The SNPs identified for Malat1 are rs1194338, rs4102217, and rs591291. In the UCSC genome browser screenshot in Author response image 1, you can see that all of these SNPs are upstream of Malat1 and in regions of extremely dense H3K27Ac, suggesting enhancer function. These SNPs do not represent sequence specific function of the Malat1 transcript, but rather more likely genomic sequence regulation of Malat1 (or nearby gene) expression.

      Author response image 1.

      • Figure 2H: In the figure legend, could the authors clarify what they mean by "same conditions as in F"?

      We have updated the figure legend for clarity.

      • Figure 3 panel labels B, C, D don't match figure.

      We have corrected this and provided an updated figure.

      • Figure 4 D, E, F: Can the authors comment more about why in their opinion early activation genes are not significantly decreased in Malat1 scr/scr?

      Figure 4A shows that interrupting Malat1 interaction with miR-15/16 does affect the early induction of the immediate early gene CD69. Even miR-15/16 deficiency did not affect Nur77 expression, indicating that Malat1 and miR-15/16 regulate specific cues and signaling pathways involved in T cell activation. In particular, the transcriptomic analysis led us to focus on effects on costimulation-induced genes (Figure 3). Figure panels 4D, E, and F show the production of cytokines, including IL-2, which has been well documented to be responsive to CD28 signaling and clearly did so in our experiments. These data show a consistent increase in miR-15/16-deficient T cells, despite considerable noise in the assay. The trend toward reduced IL-2 in Malatscr/scr T cells is of smaller magnitude, as expected, and not statistically significant. Repeating this assay to obtain a better p value doesn’t seem warranted. However, we did independently observe decreased IL-2 production in Malatscr/scr T cells in an ex vivo cytokine capture assay (Figure 7F-G).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      We thank the reviewers for their careful review of our manuscript and the constructive comments. We have addressed the majority of comments with either new experiments, analyses, and/or text revisions. A summary of the major changes is listed below, followed by our point-by-point responses to the reviewer comments.

      Major changes:

      (1) We sought to gain insight into the potential mechanistic cause of the increased intrinsic excitability of Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> dSPNs. Given that Kv1.1 and 1.2 potassium channels are known to interact with Caspr2 (the protein encoded by Cntnap2), we hypothesized that altered number, location, and/or function of these channels may underlie the excitability change in these cells. To investigate this, we performed new analyses of the initial dataset to assess action potential (AP) properties known to be impacted by potassium channel function. Indeed, we found that AP frequency was increased, and rheobase current, AP latency and AP threshold were decreased in Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> dSPNs, suggestive of altered Kv1.2 function. These data are in the new Supplemental Fig. 4. We also performed new electrophysiology experiments in which we pharmacologically blocked Kv1.1 and 1.2 to assess whether the effects of blocking these channels would be occluded in Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> dSPNs. We found that 1) WT dSPNs responded to blockade of Kv1.1/1.2 channels by increasing their excitability but Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> dSPNs did not and 2) Kv1.1/1.2 channels were more important contributors to the excitability of dSPNs compared to iSPNs. These new data are presented in the revised Fig. 4 and Supplemental. Figs. 5 and 6.

      (2) We performed additional experiments to assess excitatory synaptic properties, specifically AMPA/NMDA receptor ratio. This has been added to Fig. 1.

      (3) We performed more rigorous statistical analyses of the initial physiology datasets to align with the statistics performed for the revision experiments. This applies to Fig. 1, Fig. 2, Fig. 3, Fig. 5, and Supp. Fig. 2.

      (4) In the discussion section, we now highlight potential limitations of the study and further discuss the variable impact that Cntnap2 loss has on different cell types and brain regions.  

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Cording et al. investigated how deletion of CNTNAP2, a gene associated with autism spectrum disorder, alters corticostriatal engagement and behavior. Specifically, the authors present slice electrophysiology data showing that striatal projection neurons (SPNs) are more readily driven to fire action potentials in response to stimulation of corticostriatal afferents, and this is due to increases in SPN intrinsic excitability rather than changes in excitatory or inhibitory synaptic inputs. The authors show that CNTNAP2 mice display repetitive behaviors, enhanced motor learning, and cognitive inflexibility. Overall the authors' conclusions are supported by their data, but a few claims could use some more evidence to be convincing.

      Strengths:

      The use of multiple behavioral techniques, both traditional and cutting-edge machine learning-based analyses, provides a powerful means of assessing repetitive behaviors and behavioral transitions/rigidity.

      Characterization of both excitatory and inhibitory synaptic responses in slice electrophysiology experiments offers a broad survey of the synaptic alterations that may lead to increased corticostriatal engagement of SPNs.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The authors conclude that increased cortical engagement of SPNs is due to changes in SPN intrinsic excitability rather than synaptic strength (either excitatory or inhibitory). One weakness is that only AMPA receptor-mediated responses were measured. Though the holding potential used for experiments in Figure 1FI wasn't clear, recordings were presumably performed at a hyperpolarized potential that limits NMDA receptormediated responses. Because the input-output experiments used to conclude that corticostriatal engagement of SPNs is elevated (Figure 1B-E) were conducted in the current clamp, it is possible that enhanced NMDA receptor engagement contributed to increased SPN responses to cortical stimulation. Confirming that NMDA receptor-mediated EPSC components are not altered would strengthen the main conclusion.

      The reviewer is correct, the initial optically-evoked EPSC assessments were performed at a hyperpolarized potential (-70mV), thus measuring primarily AMPAR-mediated currents. We agree that assessing potential changes in the NMDAR-mediated EPSC component is important and we have completed new experiments to assess this. We find no differences in NMDAR-mediated EPSCs assessed at +40mV or the AMPA:NMDA ratio.

      These results have been added to Fig. 1. An expanded analysis of these results is shown in Author response image 1. We note that the previous AMPAR-mediated EPSC results have been replicated in this additional experiment, again showing no change in Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> SPNs. 

      Author response image 1.

      AMPA and NMDA receptor-mediated EPSCs are unchanged in Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> SPNs. (A) Quantification (mean ± SEM) of AMPA:NMDA ratio per cell for Cntnap2<sup>+/+</sup> and Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> dSPNs, p=0.9537, MannWhitney test. (B) dSPN AMPA current per cell, p=0.6172, Mann-Whitney test. (C) dSPN NMDA current per cell, p=0.6009, Mann-Whitney test. (D) dSPN AMPA:NMDA ratio averaged by animal, p=0.8413, Mann-Whitney test. (E) dSPN AMPA current averaged by animal, p>0.9999, Mann-Whitney test. (F) dSPN NMDA current averaged by animal, p=0.6905, Mann-Whitney test. (G) Quantification (mean ± SEM) of AMPA:NMDA ratio per cell for Cntnap2<sup>+/+</sup> and Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> iSPNs, p=0.4104, Mann-Whitney test. (H) iSPN AMPA current per cell, p=0.9010, Mann-Whitney test. (I) iSPN NMDA current per cell, p=0.9512, two-tailed unpaired t test. (J) iSPN AMPA:NMDA averaged by animal, p=0.3095, Mann-Whitney test. (K) iSPN AMPA current averaged by animal, p=>0.9999, Mann-Whitney test. (L) iSPN NMDA current averaged by animal, p=0.8413, MannWhitney test. All values were recorded using 20% blue light intensity. For dSPNs: Cntnap2<sup>+/+</sup> n=22 cells from 5 mice, Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> n=22 cells from 5 mice. For iSPNs: Cntnap2<sup>+/+</sup> n=21 cells from 5 mice, Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup>n=21 cells from 5 mice.

      (2) Data clearly show that SPN intrinsic excitability is increased in knockout mice. Given that CNTNAP2 has been linked to potassium channel regulation, it would be helpful to show and quantify additional related electrophysiology data such as negative IV curve responses and action potential hyperpolarization.

      We appreciate this suggestion. As indicated by the reviewer, Caspr2, has previously been shown to control the clustering of Kv1-family potassium channels in axons isolated from optic nerve and corpus callosum (PMIDs: 10624965, 12963709, 29300891). In particular, Caspr2 is known to associate directly with Kv1.2 (PMID: 29300891). To assess a potential contribution of Kv1.2 to the excitability phenotype, we performed additional analyses of our original dataset to quantify AP properties known to be impacted by changes in Kv1.2 function (i.e. latency to fire and AP threshold, new Supp. Fig. 4). We identified several changes in Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> dSPNs resembling those that occur in wild-type cells when Kv1.2 is blocked (i.e. reduced threshold and reduced latency to fire, Supp. Fig. 4). 

      We then performed a pharmacological experiment, blocking Kv1.2 using α-dendrotoxin (α-DTX) while recording intrinsic excitability to assess whether the effects of this drug on dSPN excitability were occluded in Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> cells. Indeed, we found that while blocking Kv1.2 in wild-type dSPNs significantly reduced threshold and increased intrinsic excitability, these effects were not seen in Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> dSPNs (new Fig. 4). We believe that this suggests an altered contribution of Kv1.2 to the intrinsic excitability of mutant dSPNs, owing to a change in the clustering, number, or function of these channels. Therefore, loss-of-function of Kv1.2 is a likely explanation for the enhanced intrinsic excitability of Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> dSPNs. Interestingly, we found that α-DTX had only subtle effects on iSPNs (Cntnap2 WT or mutant), suggesting a lesser contribution of this channel in controlling the excitability of indirect pathway cells. This finding can account for the relatively stronger effect of Cntnap2 loss on dSPN physiology. The results of these new experiments and analyses are presented in the new Fig. 4, Supp. Fig. 5 and Supp. Fig. 6. 

      (3) As it stands, the reported changes in dorsolateral striatum SPN excitability are only correlative with reported changes in repetitive behaviors, motor learning, and cognitive flexibility.

      We agree that we have not identified a causative relationship between the change in dorsolateral dSPN excitability and the behaviors that we measured in Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> mice. That said, in a previous study, we showed that selective deletion of the autism spectrum disorder (ASD) risk gene Tsc1 from dorsal striatal dSPNs resulted in increased corticostriatal drive and this was sufficient to increase rotarod motor learning (PMID: 34380034). Therefore, while we have not demonstrated causality in this study, we hypothesize that changes in dSPN excitability are likely to contribute to the behavioral phenotypes observed in Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> mice. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This is an important study characterizing striatal dysfunction and behavioral deficits in Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> mice. There is growing evidence suggesting that striatal dysfunction underlies core symptoms of ASD but the specific cellular and circuit level abnormalities disrupted by different risk genes remain unclear. This study addresses how the deletion of Cntnap2 affects the intrinsic properties and synaptic connectivity of striatal spiny projection neurons (SPN) of the direct (dSPN) and indirect (iSPN) pathways. Using Thy1-ChR2 mice and optogenetics the authors found increased firing of both types of SPNs in response to cortical afferent stimulation. However, there was no significant difference in the amplitude of optically-evoked excitatory postsynaptic currents (EPSCs) or spine density between Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> and WT SPNs, suggesting that the increased corticostriatal coupling might be due to changes in intrinsic excitability. Indeed, the authors found Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> SPNs, particularly dSPNs, exhibited higher intrinsic excitability, reduced rheobase current, and increased membrane resistance compared to WT SPNs. The enhanced spiking probability in Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> SPNs is not due to reduced inhibition. Despite previous reports of decreased parvalbumin-expressing (PV) interneurons in various brain regions of Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> mice, the number and function (IPSC amplitude and intrinsic excitability) of these interneurons in the striatum were comparable to WT controls.

      This study also includes a comprehensive behavioral analysis of striatal-related behaviors. Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> mice demonstrated increased repetitive behaviors (RRBs), including more grooming bouts, increased marble burying, and increased nose poking in the holeboard assay. MoSeq analysis of behavior further showed signs of altered grooming behaviors and sequencing of behavioral syllables. Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> mice also displayed cognitive inflexibility in a four-choice odor-based reversal learning assay. While they performed similarly to WT controls during acquisition and recall phases, they required significantly more trials to learn a new odor-reward association during reversal, consistent with potential deficits in corticostriatal function.

      Strengths:

      This study provides significant contributions to the field. The finding of altered SPN excitability, the detailed characterization of striatal inhibition, and the comprehensive behavioral analysis are novel and valuable to understanding the pathophysiology of Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> mice.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The approach based on Thy-ChR2 mice has the advantage of overcoming issues caused by injection efficiency and targeting variability. However, the spread of oEPSC amplitudes across mice shown in panels of Figure 1 G/I is very high with almost one order of magnitude difference between some mice. Given this is one of the most important points of the study it will be important to further analyze and discuss what this variability might be due to. Typically, in acute slice recordings, the within-animal variability is larger than the variability across animals. From the sample sizes reported it seems the authors sampled a large number of animals, but with a relatively low number of neurons per animal (per condition). Could this be one of the reasons for this variability?

      We agree with the reviewer that the variability in these experiments is quite large. We have replicated these experiments in the process of performing AMPA:NMDA ratio recordings (see above response to Reviewer 1’s comment). We again find no differences in AMPAR-mediated EPSC amplitude between WT and mutant SPNs (Author response image 2). Notably, these experiments also demonstrate a large amount of variability. In the original dataset, a small number of cells were collected from each animal (~1-3 cells/mouse). However, the variability remains in the new dataset, in which more cells were collected from each animal (~4-6 cells/mouse). We find both withinanimal and between-animal variability, as can be seen in Author response image 2 (recordings made from the same animal are color-coordinated). Potential sources of variability in this experiment include: 1) variable expression of ChR2 per mouse, 2) variable innervation of ChR2-expressing terminals onto any given recorded cell, and/or 3) differences in prior plasticity state between cells (i.e. some neurons may have recently undergone corticostriatal LTP or LTD). 

      Author response image 2.

      Optically-evoked AMPAR EPSCs exhibit within- and between-animal variability. (A) Quantification of EPSC amplitude evoked in dSPNs at different light intensities from the original dataset, plotted by cell (line represents the mean, dots/squares represent average EPSC amplitude for each recorded cell). Cntnap2<sup>+/+</sup> n=17 cells from 8 mice, Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> n=13 cells from 5 mice. Repeated measures two-way ANOVA p values are shown; g x s F (2, 56) = 0.3879, geno F (1, 28) = 0.8098, stim F (1.047, 29.32) = 76.56. (B) Quantification of EPSC amplitude evoked in dSPNs, averaged by mouse (line represents the mean, dots/squares represent average EPSC amplitude for each mouse). Cntnap2<sup>+/+</sup> n=8 mice, Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> n=5 mice. Repeated measures two-way ANOVA p values are shown; g x s F (2, 22) = 0.2154, geno F (1, 11) = 0.2585, stim F (1.053, 11.58) = 49.68. (C) Quantification of EPSC amplitude in dSPNs from the revision dataset, plotted by cell (line represents the mean, dots/squares represent average EPSC amplitude for each recorded cell). Cntnap2<sup>+/+</sup> n=22 cells from 5 mice, Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> n=22 cells from 5 mice. Repeated measures two-way ANOVA p values are shown; g x s F (2, 84) = 0.01885, geno F (1, 42) = 0.002732, stim F (1.863, 78.26) = 20.93. (D) Quantification of EPSC amplitude in dSPNs from the revision dataset, averaged by mouse (line represents the mean, dots/squares represent average EPSC amplitude for each mouse). Cntnap2<sup>+/+</sup> n=5 mice, Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> n=5 mice. Repeated measures two-way ANOVA p values are shown; g x s F (2, 16) = 0.06288, geno F (1, 8) = 0.006548, stim F (1.585, 12.68) = 16.97. (E) Quantification of EPSC amplitude evoked in iSPNs from the original dataset, plotted by cell (line represents the mean, dots/squares represent average EPSC amplitude for each recorded cell). Cntnap2<sup>+/+</sup> n=13 cells from 6 mice, Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> n=11 cells from 5 mice. Repeated measures two-way ANOVA p values are shown; g x s F (2, 44) = 0.9414, geno F (1, 22) = 1.333, stim F (1.099, 24.18) = 52.26. (F) Quantification of EPSC amplitude evoked in iSPNs from original dataset, averaged by mouse (line represents the mean, dots/squares represent average EPSC amplitude for each mouse). Cntnap2<sup>+/+</sup> n=6 mice, Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> n=5 mice. Repeated measures two-way ANOVA p values are shown; g x s F (2, 18) = 0.4428, geno F (1, 9) = 0.5635, stim F (1.095, 9.851) = 23.82. (G) Quantification of EPSC amplitude evoked in iSPNs from the revision dataset, plotted by cell (line represents the mean, dots/squares represent average EPSC amplitude for each recorded cell). Cntnap2<sup>+/+</sup> n=21 cells from 5 mice, Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> n=21 cells from 5 mice. Repeated measures two-way ANOVA p values are shown; g x s F (2, 80) = 0.04134, geno F (1, 40) = 0.007025, stim F (1.208, 48.31) = 102.9. (H) Quantification of EPSC amplitude evoked in iSPNs from the revision dataset, averaged by mouse (line represents the mean, dots/squares represent average EPSC amplitude for each mouse). Cntnap2<sup>+/+</sup> n=5 mice, Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> n=5 mice. Repeated measures two-way ANOVA p values are shown; g x s F (2, 16) = 0.001865, geno F (1, 8) = 0.1004, stim F (1.179, 9.433) = 61.31.

      (2) This is particularly important because the analysis of corticostriatal evoked APs in panels C and E is performed on pooled data without considering the variability in evoked current amplitudes across animals shown in G and I. Were the neurons in panels C/E recorded from the same mice as shown in G/I? If so, it would be informative to regress AP firing data (say at 20% LED) to the average oEPSC amplitude recorded on those mice at the same light intensity. However, if the low number of neurons recorded per mouse is due to technical limitations, then increasing the sample size of these experiments would strengthen the study.

      We appreciate this point; however, the evoked AP experiment and the evoked EPSC experiment were performed on different mice, so it is not possible to correlate the data across experiments. While the evoked AP experiments were performed using potassium-based internal, we used a cesium-based internal to measure AMPAR-mediated EPSCs to more accurately detect synaptic currents. We note that the evoked AP experiments share a similar amount of variability as the evoked EPSC experiments, again possibly owing to variable expression of channelrhodopsin per mouse, variable innervation of ChR2-positive terminals onto individual cells, and/or differences in prior plasticity status between cells.  

      (3) On a similar note, there is no discussion of why iSPNs also show increased corticostriatal evoked firing in Figure 1E, despite the difference in intrinsic excitability shown in Figure 3. This suggests other potential mechanisms that might underlie altered corticostriatal responses. Given the role of Caspr2 in clustering K channels in axons, altered presynaptic function or excitability could also contribute to this phenotype, but potential changes in PPR have not been explored in this study.

      We have now performed more rigorous statistics on the data in Fig. 1 (repeated measures two-way ANOVA) such that the difference in corticostriatal evoked firing in Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> iSPNs no longer reaches statistical significance. This is consistent with the modest but statistically non-significant effect of Cntnap2 loss on iSPN intrinsic excitability. We agree with the reviewer that presynaptic alterations could potentially contribute to the changes in cortically-driven action potentials, especially as this experiment was performed without any synaptic blockers present, and Cntnap2 is deleted from all cells. That said, if changes in presynaptic release probability accounted for the increased corticostriatal drive, we would expect to see differences in cortically-evoked EPSCs onto SPNs. 

      While we can’t rule out the possibility of pre-synaptic changes, a straightforward explanation for our findings is that loss or alteration of Kv1.2 channel function is responsible for the increased excitability of Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> dSPNs, resulting in enhanced spiking in response to cortical input. Given the fact that Kv1.2 channels appear less important for regulating iSPN excitability (see new Fig. 4 and Supp. Fig. 6), this can explain the greater impact of Cntnap2 loss on dSPN physiology.

      (4) Male and female SPNs have different intrinsic properties but the number and/or balance of M/F mice used for each experiment is not reported.

      We agree that this is an important consideration. Author response table 1 provides the sex breakdown for the intrinsic excitability experiments. While we did not explicitly power the experiments to test for sex differences, Author response image 3 shows the data separated by sex and genotype for the intrinsic excitability experiments. Within genotype, we find no significant differences between males and females, except for Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> iSPNs which showed a significant interaction between sex and current step (Author response image 3F). Interestingly, while present in both sexes, the excitability shift of Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> dSPNs may be slightly more pronounced in females compared to males (Author response image 3C and D). However, this result would require further validation with a greater sample size.

      Author response table 1.

      Numbers of male and female mice used for the intrinsic excitability experiments.

      Author response image 3.

      Enhanced excitability of Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> dSPNs is present in both males and females. (A) Quantification (mean ± SEM) of the number of APs evoked in dSPNs in Cntnap2<sup>+/+</sup> males and females at different current step amplitudes. Cntnap2<sup>+/+</sup> males n=12 cells from 4 mice, Cntnap2<sup>+/+</sup> females n=8 cells from 4 mice. Repeated measures two-way ANOVA p values are shown; s x c F (28, 560) = 0.8992, sex F (1, 20) = 0.3754, current F (1.279, 25.57) = 56.85. (B) Quantification (mean ± SEM) of the number of APs evoked in dSPNs in Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> males and females at different current step amplitudes. Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> males n=12 cells from 4 mice, Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> females n=11 cells from 4 mice. Repeated measures two-way ANOVA p values are shown; s x c F (28, 588) = 0.6752, sex F (1, 21) = 0.04534, current F (2.198, 46.15) = 78.89. (C) Quantification (mean ± SEM) of the number of APs evoked in dSPNs in Cntnap2<sup>+/+</sup> males and Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> males at different current step amplitudes. Cntnap2<sup>+/+</sup> males n=12 cells from 4 mice, Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> males n=12 cells from 4 mice. Repeated measures two-way ANOVA p values are shown; g x c F (28, 672) = 2.233, geno F (1, 24) = 3.746, current F (1.708, 40.98) = 79.82. (D) Quantification (mean ± SEM) of the number of APs evoked in dSPNs in Cntnap2<sup>+/+</sup> females and Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> females at different current step amplitudes. Cntnap2<sup>+/+</sup> females n=8 cells from 4 mice, Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> females n=11 cells from 4 mice. Repeated measures two-way ANOVA p values are shown; g x c F (28, 476) = 1.547, geno F (1, 17) = 5.912, current F (1.892, 32.17) = 58.76. (E) Quantification (mean ± SEM) of the number of APs evoked in iSPNs in Cntnap2<sup>+/+</sup> males and females at different current step amplitudes. Cntnap2<sup>+/+</sup> males n=10 cells from 4 mice, Cntnap2<sup>+/+</sup> females n=12 cells from 4 mice. Repeated measures two-way ANOVA p values are shown; s x c F (28, 560) = 1.236, sex F (1, 20) = 1.074, current F (2.217, 44.34) = 179.6. (F) Quantification (mean ± SEM) of the number of APs evoked in iSPNs in Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> males and females at different current step amplitudes. Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> males n=12 cells from 4 mice, Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> females n=9 cells from 4 mice. Repeated measures two-way ANOVA p values are shown; s x c F (28, 532) = 2.513, sex F (1, 19) = 2.639, current F (1.858, 35.31) = 152.5. (G) Quantification (mean ± SEM) of the number of APs evoked in iSPNs in Cntnap2<sup>+/+</sup> males and Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> males at different current step amplitudes. Cntnap2<sup>+/+</sup> males n=10 cells from 4 mice, Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> males n=12 cells from 4 mice. Repeated measures twoway ANOVA p values are shown; g x c F (28, 560) = 0.4723, geno F (1, 20) = 0.5675, current F (2.423, 48.47) = 301.7. (H) Quantification (mean ± SEM) of the number of APs evoked in iSPNs in Cntnap2<sup>+/+</sup> females and Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> females at different current step amplitudes. Cntnap2<sup>+/+</sup> females n=12 cells from 4 mice, Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> females n=9 cells from 4 mice. Repeated measures two-way ANOVA p values are shown; g x c F (28, 532) = 1.655, geno F (1, 19) = 0.2322, current F (2.081, 39.55) = 99.45.

      (5) There is no mention of how membrane resistance was calculated, and no I/V plots are shown.

      Passive properties were calculated from the average of five -5 mV, 100 ms long test pulse steps applied at the beginning of every experiment. Membrane resistance was calculated from the double exponential curve fit. This has now been added to the methods section.

      (6) It would be interesting to see which behavior transitions most contribute to the decrease in entropy. Are these caused by repeated or perseverative grooming bouts? Or is this inflexibility also observed across other behaviors? The transition map in Figure S5 shows the overall number of syllables and transitions but not their sequence during behavior. Can this be analyzed by calculating the ratio of individual 𝑢𝑖 × 𝑝𝑖,𝑗 × log2 𝑝𝑖,𝑗 factors across genotypes?

      We thank the reviewer for raising an insightful question. Here we use a finite state Markov chain model to describe the syllable transitions in animal behavior. To quantify the randomness in the system, we calculated the entropy of the Markov chain (see methods section). The reviewer suggested calculating the partial entropy of the transition matrix, which would allow us to estimate the contribution of a subset of states to the entropy of the whole system, given by the equation:

      The partial equation can indeed quantify the stochasticity, or “flexibility” in our context, of the sub-system containing only a subset of the behavior syllables. However, there are two main limitations to this approach:

      (1) The partial entropy fails to account for the transitions connecting the subset with the rest of the states in the system

      (2) The stationary distribution may not reflect the actual probabilities in the isolated sub-system S.

      Consequently, the partial entropy cannot be directly interpreted as the fraction of contributions from specific syllable pairs or sub-system to the entropy of the whole system. To be more specific, while a significant difference between the same sub-system in WT and KO groups could indicate that the sub-system contributes significantly to the difference of overall entropy, a non-significant result does not mean that the sub-system does not contribute to overall entropy difference, as interactions between the sub-system and other notconsidered states are not accounted for.

      Author response image 4.

      Grooming syllables contribute to some but not all differences in syllable transitions in Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> mice. We calculated the entropy of each syllable pair using 𝑢𝑖 × 𝑝𝑖,𝑗 × log2 𝑝𝑖,𝑗 for every syllable pair and every animal. We then statistically tested the difference between genotypes for each syllable pair using Mann-Whitney tests. This plot displays those adjusted p-values for each syllable pair between WT and KO groups. The significant p-values suggest that the transitions to syllables 24 and 25 are different between genotypes (note that these correspond to grooming syllables, see Fig. 5N). However, since the overall entropy is a summation of every pair, it is difficult to conclude that syllables 24 and 25 are the sole contributors to the different entropy we observed.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors analyzed Cntnap2 KO mice to determine whether loss of the ASD risk gene CNTNAP2 alters the dorsal striatum's function.

      Strengths:

      The results demonstrate that loss of Cntnap2 results in increased excitability of striatal projection neurons (SPNs) and altered striatal-dependent behaviors, such as repetitive, inflexible behaviors. Unlike other brain areas and cell types, synaptic inputs onto SPNs were normal in Cntnap2 KO mice. The experiments are welldesigned, and the results support the authors' conclusions.

      Weaknesses:

      The mechanism underlying SPN hyperexcitability was not explored, and it is unclear whether this cellular phenotype alone can account for the behavioral alterations in Cntnap2 KO mice. No clear explanation emerges for the variable phenotype in different brain areas and cell types.

      We agree that identifying the mechanism by which Cntnap2 loss affects intrinsic excitability is interesting and important. We have added experiments to address this and conclude that the improper clustering, number, or function of Kv1.2 channels in Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> dSPNs is likely responsible for their increased excitability. These channels are known to be clustered/organized in part by Caspr2 (PMIDs: 10624965, 12963709, 29300891), and Kv1.2 channels are known to play an important role in regulating excitability in SPNs (PMIDs: 13679409, 32075716). In the case of dSPNs, blocking these channels with α-DTX significantly increased the excitability of WT cells (as has been previously reported); however, this effect was occluded in mutant cells, perhaps owing to a decreased contribution of Kv1.2 channels to excitability in Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> dSPNs. In addition, we found that blockade of these channels with α-DTX only modestly affected the excitability of iSPNs. Therefore, this can explain why loss of Cntnap2 more strongly affects the excitability of dSPNs. Please see new Fig. 4, Supp. Fig. 5 and Supp. Fig. 6 for these new data. 

      We agree with the reviewer that we have not identified a causative relationship between the change in dSPN excitability and the behavioral alterations in Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> mice. This is a limitation of the study. 

      It is interesting to speculate on the root of the varying impacts to excitability that occur across different brain regions and cell types in Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> mice. Increased excitability, as we see in dSPNs, has been identified in cerebellar Purkinje cells and L2/3 pyramidal neurons in somatosensory cortex in the context of Cntnap2 loss (PMIDs: 34593517, 30679017, 36793543). However, other cell types in Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> mice have exhibited no change in excitability (mPFC, L2/3 pyramidal neurons, PMID: 31141683) or hypoexcitability (subset of L5/6 pyramidal neurons, PMID: 29112191). While all of these cell types express Kv1.2 channels, they fundamentally vary in their intrinsic properties, owing to the role that other ion channels play in membrane excitability. As a result, loss of Cntnap2 is expected to have a variable effect on excitability depending on the cell type and the complement of other ion channels that are present. In addition, an initial change in excitability may drive secondary, potentially compensatory, changes in other channels that lead to a different excitability state. These changes are also expected to be cell type-specific. We do note that both of the cell types that show increased excitability in the context of Cntnap2 loss have been shown to exhibit an α-DTX-sensitive Kv1 channel current, such that application of α-DTX results in increased firing of these cells (cerebellar Purkinje cells; PMIDs: 17087603, 16210348 and L2/3 pyramidal neurons in somatosensory cortex; PMID: 17215507). These findings are consistent with our results in Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> dSPNs. 

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      More thorough analysis of some of the manually quantified behaviors would be helpful. For example, only the grooming bout number was presented- what about the duration of bouts and total time grooming? Similarly, for the open field the number of center entries was reported but what about the total time in the center?

      We have quantified the time spent grooming and total time spent in the center during the open field test from our original data (Author response image 5). These data were not originally included in the manuscript because they were recorded for only a subset of the total animals. For each of these measures we find trend level changes, which are consistent with the primary measures reported in the main manuscript. 

      Author response image 5.

      Time in center and time spent grooming trend towards an increase in Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> mice.  (A) Quantification (mean ± SEM) of total time spent in the center of the open field during a 60 minute test, p=0.0656, Mann-Whitney test. (B) Time spent grooming during the first 20 minutes of the open field test, p=0.0611, Mann-Whitney test. For both measurements, Cntnap2<sup>+/+</sup> n=18 mice, Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> n=19 mice.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      What accounts for the hyperexcitability observed in Cntnap2-deficient SPNs? The authors noted that excitability is reportedly increased, reduced, or unchanged in different brain areas. What accounts for this disparity? Is it about the subcellular localization of Kv1 channels? The authors may want to test this possibility experimentally. At least, they may want to test whether Kv1 channels are mislocalized in SPNs.

      We agree that this is an important point, and we have performed additional experiments to address this. We find that the Kv1.2 blocker a-DTX significantly increases the excitability of WT dSPNs but not Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> dSPNs. This suggests that the mechanism underlying dSPN hyperexcitability in Cntnap2 mutants is the improper clustering, number, or function of Kv1.2 channels. These channels are known to be clustered and organized in part by Caspr2 (PMIDs: 10624965, 12963709, 29300891) and have been shown to play an important role in regulating the excitability of SPNs (PMIDs: 13679409, 32075716). Interestingly, we find that a-DTX has less of an effect on the excitability of iSPNs, which may account for the greater impact of Cntnap2 loss on dSPNs. Please see new Fig. 4, Supp. Fig. 5 and Supp. Fig. 6 for these added data and analyses. 

      Please see above response to Reviewer #3 for our speculation on the variable impact of Cntnap2 loss on different cell types and brain regions. 

      We agree with the reviewer that assessing potential differences in subcellular localization of Kv1 channels in our model would bolster the conclusion that these channels are mislocalized in the Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> striatum. We piloted these experiments using immunohistochemistry to stain for Kv1.1 and 1.2 but found that without very high-resolution imaging, it would be challenging to accurately quantify Kv1 puncta in a cell type-specific manner. We instead chose to investigate the functional contribution of Kv1 channels to the dSPN hyperexcitability phenotype through the a-DTX experiments outlined above. α-DTX strongly inhibits Kv1.2 channels, but also Kv1.1 channels to some extent (PMIDs: 12042352, 13679409). We find that the effects of a-DTX on SPN excitability are occluded in Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> dSPNs; therefore, we conclude that Kv1.2 (and possibly Kv1.1) channels have reduced function in these cells. Further work will be needed to determine if this is a result of channel mislocalization or another type of alteration. 

      The authors did not detect synaptic changes in Cntnap-deficient SPNs. This important observation should be briefly discussed in the context of previous work in other brain regions and cell types. For example, some studies reported structural and functional changes at excitatory synapses. The variable impact on synapses suggests distinct compensatory mechanisms in different brain areas.

      Given the prior literature showing effects of Cntnap2 loss on synapses in other brain regions, we were surprised that striatal synapses were not impacted in our model. We agree with the reviewer that the variable changes in synaptic properties across brain regions in Cntnap2 mutant mice is likely a result of distinct compensatory changes in these regions. Differences may also arise depending on whether the synaptic changes originate from the post-synaptic cell or from pre-synaptic changes. An interesting direction for future studies would be to explore the developmental trajectory of excitability and synaptic changes to determine which may be initial perturbations versus those that are secondary and potentially compensatory.

      Line 138: "synaptic excitability". How is this term defined? Consider "synaptic changes" instead.

      “Synaptic excitability” was used to mean a change in the number and/or function of glutamate receptors. We have now changed this term to “excitatory synaptic changes.”

      Consider a short paragraph to highlight some limitations of this study. For example, it is unclear whether SPN hyperexcitability results from a compensatory change in Cntnap2 KO mice and whether the behavioral phenotype is solely due to this cellular phenotype. The study focuses on cortical projections onto SPNs, but these cells receive inputs from other brain areas that were not explored. Lastly, no clear explanation emerges for the variable phenotype in different brain areas and cell types.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion and have added several paragraphs to the discussion highlighting some limitations of this study.

      We hypothesize that the dSPN hyperexcitability in Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> mice is a primary change, due to the direct relationship between Caspr2 and Kv1.2 channels. The results of our -DTX experiments suggest that the function and/or contribution of these channels to excitability is altered in Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> dSPNs. However, it is possible that there are additional changes in dSPNs that occur as a result of Cntnap2 loss and contribute to the hyperexcitability of these cells. Rather surprisingly, we don’t find evidence for altered excitatory (specifically from cortical inputs) or inhibitory synaptic function, suggesting lack of engagement of homeostatic mechanisms at the synaptic level.

      We have not yet determined whether there is a causative relationship between the change in dSPN excitability and the behavioral alterations in Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> mice. This is a limitation of the current study. In our discussion section, we highlight that the dSPN changes we observe in dorsolateral striatum (DLS) are known to be sufficient to enhance rotarod learning in other mouse models and thus supports a connection between this cellular change and behavior. For the other behaviors we measured, we acknowledge that both DLS and other striatal or extra-striatal brain regions have been implicated in these behaviors, and therefore less of a direct connection can be made. 

      In terms of the inputs, we focused on cortical inputs given their known role in mediating motor and habit learning (PMID: 15242609, 16237445, 19198605). Notably, corticostriatal synapses have been shown to be altered across a variety of mouse models with mutations in ASD risk genes and therefore may be a point of convergence for disparate genetic insults (PMID: 31758607). We agree that the striatum receives inputs from a variety of brain regions, notably the thalamus, which we did not explore in this study. This would be an interesting area for future studies.

      Finally, it is difficult to speculate on the root of the varying impacts to excitability that occur across different brain regions and cell types in Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> mice. Please see above response to Reviewer #3 for some speculation on this point in regard to the potential involvement of Kv1.2 in the excitability changes in various Cntnap2<sup>-/-</sup> cell types. To expand upon this, it is known that ASD-associated mutations can have varying impacts on cell function even across similar cell types within a given brain region – we have seen this between dSPNs and iSPNs (this study, PMIDs: 34380034, 39358043), as have other groups studying ASD risk gene mutations in striatum (PMID: 24995986). This differential impact of the same mutation on intrinsic and/or synaptic physiology across cell types has been identified in other brain regions as well (PMID: 22884327, 26601124). Differences in transcriptional programs, protein expression, neuronal morphology, synaptic inputs and plasticity state make up a non-exhaustive set of variables that will impact the physiological function of a neuron, both in terms of the direct but also indirect consequences of an ASD risk gene mutation. To better address this important question, future studies would benefit from a systematic approach to assessing physiological changes in a given ASD mouse model, both across development and across brain regions.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Thank you for the detailed and constructive reviews. We revised the paper accordingly, and a point-by-point reply appears below. The main changes are:

      • An extended discussion section that places our work in context with other related developments in theory and modeling.

      • A new results section that demonstrates a substantial improvement in performance from a non-linear activation function. This led to addition of a co-author.

      • The mathematical proof that the resolvent of the adjacency matrix leads to the shortest path distances has been moved to a separate article, available as a preprint and attached to this resubmission. This allows us to present that work in the context of graph theory, and focus the present paper on neural modeling.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      This paper presents a highly compelling and novel hypothesis for how the brain could generate signals to guide navigation towards remembered goals. Under this hypothesis, which the authors call "Endotaxis", the brain co-opts its ancient ability to navigate up odor gradients (chemotaxis) by generating a "virtual odor" that grows stronger the closer the animal is to a goal location. This idea is compelling from an evolutionary perspective and a mechanistic perspective. The paper is well-written and delightful to read.

      The authors develop a detailed model of how the brain may perform "Endotaxis", using a variety of interconnected cell types (point, map, and goal cells) to inform the chemotaxis system. They tested the ability of this model to navigate in several state spaces, representing both physical mazes and abstract cognitive tasks. The Endotaxis model performed reasonably well across different environments and different types of goals.

      The authors further tested the model using parameter sweeps and discovered a critical level of network gain, beyond which task performance drops. This critical level approximately matched analytical derivations.

      My main concern with this paper is that the analysis of the critical gain value (gamma_c) is incomplete, making the implications of these analyses unclear. There are several different reasonable ways in which the Endotaxis map cell representations might be normalized, which I suspect may lead to different results. Specifically, the recurrent connections between map cells may either be an adjacency matrix, or a normalized transition matrix. In the current submission, the recurrent connections are an unnormalized adjacency matrix. In a previous preprint version of the Endotaxis manuscript, the recurrent connections between the map cells were learned using Oja's rule, which results in a normalized state-transition matrix (see "Appendix 5: Endotaxis model and the successor representation" in "Neural learning rules for generating flexible predictions and computing the successor representation", your reference 17). The authors state "In summary, this sensitivity analysis shows that the optimal parameter set for endotaxis does depend on the environment". Is this statement, and the other conclusions of the sensitivity analysis, still true if the learned recurrent connections are a properly normalized state-transition matrix?

      Yes, this is an interesting topic. In v.1 of our bioRxiv preprint we used Oja’s rule for learning, which will converge on a map connectivity that reflects the transition probabilities. The matrix M becomes a left-normalized or right-normalized stochastic matrix, depending on whether one uses the pre-synaptic or the post-synaptic version of Oja’s rule. This is explained well in Appendix 5 of Fang 2023.

      In the present version of the model we use a rule that learns the adjacency matrix A, not the transition matrix T. The motivation is that we want to explain instances of oneshot learning, where an agent acquires a route after traversing it just once. For example, we had found experimentally that mice can execute a complex homing route on the first attempt.

      An agent can establish whether two nodes are connected (adjacency) the very first time it travels from one node to the other. Whereas it can evaluate the transition probability for that link only after trying this and all the other available links on multiple occasions. Hence the normalization terms in Oja’s rule, or in the rule used by Fang 2023, all involve some time-averaging over multiple visits to the same node. This implements a gradual learning process over many experiences, rather than a one-shot acquisition on the first experience.

      Still one may ask whether there are advantages to learning the transition matrix rather than the adjacency matrix. We looked into this with the following results:

      • The result that (1/γ − A)−1 is monotonically related to the graph distances D in the limit of small γ (a proof now moved to the Meister 2023 preprint) , holds also for the transition matrix T. The proof follows the same steps. So in the small gain limit, the navigation model would work with T as well.

      • If one uses the transition matrix to compute the network output (1/γ − T)-1 then the critical gain value is γc = 1. It is well known that the largest eigenvalue of any Markov transition matrix is 1, and the critical gain γc is the inverse of that. This result is independent of the graph. So this offers the promise that the network could use the same gain parameter γ regardless of the environment.

      • In practice, however, the goal signal turned out to be less robust when based on T than when based on A. We illustrate this with the attached Author response image 1. This replicates the analysis in Figure 3 of the manuscript, using the transition matrix instead of the adjacency matrix. Some observations:

      • Panel B: The goal signal follows an exponential dependence on graph distance much more robustly for the model with A than with T. This holds even for small gain values where the exponential decay is steep.

      • Panel C: As one raises the gain closer to the critical value, the goal signal based on T scatters much more than when based on A.

      • Panels D, E: Navigation based on A works better than based on T. For example, using the highest practical gain value, and a readout noise of ϵ = 0.01, navigation based on T has a range of only 8 steps on this graph, whereas navigation based on A ranges over 12 steps, the full size of this graph.

      We have added a section “Choice of learning rule” to explain this. The Author response image 1 is part of the code notebook on Github.

      Author response image 1.

      Overall, this paper provides a very compelling model for how neural circuits may have evolved the ability to navigate towards remembered goals, using ancient chemotaxis circuits.

      This framework will likely be very important for understanding how the hippocampus (and other memory/navigation-related circuits) interfaces with other processes in the brain, giving rise to memory-guided behavior.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The manuscript presents a computational model of how an organism might learn a map of the structure of its environment and the location of valuable resources through synaptic plasticity, and how this map could subsequently be used for goal-directed navigation.

      The model is composed of 'map cells', which learn the structure of the environment in their recurrent connections, and 'goal-cell' which stores the location of valued resources with respect to the map cell population. Each map cell corresponds to a particular location in the environment due to receiving external excitatory input at this location. The synaptic plasticity rule between map cells potentiates synapses when activity above a specified threshold at the pre-synaptic neuron is followed by above-threshold activity at the post-synaptic neuron. The threshold is set such that map neurons are only driven above this plasticity threshold by the external excitatory input, causing synapses to only be potentiated between a pair of map neurons when the organism moves directly between the locations they represent. This causes the weight matrix between the map neurons to learn the adjacency for the graph of locations in the environment, i.e. after learning the synaptic weight matrix matches the environment's adjacency matrix. Recurrent activity in the map neuron population then causes a bump of activity centred on the current location, which drops off exponentially with the diffusion distance on the graph. Each goal cell receives input from the map cells, and also from a 'resource cell' whose activity indicates the presence or absence of a given values resource at the current location. Synaptic plasticity potentiates map-cell to goal-cell synapses in proportion to the activity of the map cells at time points when the resource cell is active. This causes goal cell activity to increase when the activity of the map cell population is similar to the activity where the resource was obtained. The upshot of all this is that after learning the activity of goal cells decreases exponentially with the diffusion distance from the corresponding goal location. The organism can therefore navigate to a given goal by doing gradient ascent on the activity of the corresponding goal cell. The process of evaluating these gradients and using them to select actions is not modelled explicitly, but the authors point to the similarity of this mechanism to chemotaxis (ascending a gradient of odour concentration to reach the odour source), and the widespread capacity for chemotaxis in the animal kingdom, to argue for its biological plausibility.

      The ideas are interesting and the presentation in the manuscript is generally clear. The two principle limitations of the manuscript are: i) Many of the ideas that the model implements have been explored in previous work. ii) The mapping of the circuit model onto real biological systems is pretty speculative, particularly with respect to the cerebellum.

      Regarding the novelty of the work, the idea of flexibly navigating to goals by descending distance gradients dates back to at least Kaelbling (Learning to achieve goals, IJCAI, 1993), and is closely related to both the successor representation (cited in manuscript) and Linear Markov Decision Processes (LMDPs) (Piray and Daw, 2021, https://doi.org/ 10.1038/s41467-021-25123-3, Todorov, 2009 https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.0710743106). The specific proposal of navigating to goals by doing gradient descent on diffusion distances, computed as powers of the adjacency matrix, is explored in Baram et al. 2018 (https://doi.org/10.1101/421461), and the idea that recurrent neural networks whose weights are the adjacency matrix can compute diffusion distances are explored in Fang et al. 2022 (https://doi.org/10.1101/2022.05.18.492543). Similar ideas about route planning using the spread of recurrent activity are also explored in Corneil and Gerstner (2015, cited in manuscript). Further exploration of this space of ideas is no bad thing, but it is important to be clear where prior literature has proposed closely related ideas.

      We have added a discussion section on “Theories and models of spatial learning” with a survey of ideas in this domain and how they come together in the Endotaxis model.

      Regarding whether the proposed circuit model might plausibly map onto a real biological system, I will focus on the mammalian brain as I don't know the relevant insect literature. It was not completely clear to me how the authors think their model corresponds to mammalian brain circuits. When they initially discuss brain circuits they point to the cerebellum as a plausible candidate structure (lines 520-546). Though the correspondence between cerebellar and model cell types is not very clearly outlined, my understanding is they propose that cerebellar granule cells are the 'map-cells' and Purkinje cells are the 'goal-cells'. I'm no cerebellum expert, but my understanding is that the granule cells do not have recurrent excitatory connections needed by the map cells. I am also not aware of reports of place-field-like firing in these cell populations that would be predicted by this correspondence. If the authors think the cerebellum is the substrate for the proposed mechanism they should clearly outline the proposed correspondence between cerebellar and model cell types and support the argument with reference to the circuit architecture, firing properties, lesion studies, etc.

      On further thought we agree that the cerebellum-like circuits are not a plausible substrate for the endotaxis algorithm. The anatomy looks compelling, but plasticity at the synapse is anti-hebbian, and - as the reviewer points out - there is little evidence for recurrence among the inputs. We changed the discussion text accordingly.

      The authors also discuss the possibility that the hippocampal formation might implement the proposed model, though confusingly they state 'we do not presume that endotaxis is localized to that structure' (line 564).

      We have removed that confusing bit of text.

      A correspondence with the hippocampus appears more plausible than the cerebellum, given the spatial tuning properties of hippocampal cells, and the profound effect of lesions on navigation behaviours. When discussing the possible relationship of the model to hippocampal circuits it would be useful to address internally generated sequential activity in the hippocampus. During active navigation, and when animals exhibit vicarious trial and error at decision points, internally generated sequential activity of hippocampal place cells appears to explore different possible routes ahead of the animal (Kay et al. 2020, https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cell.2020.01.014, Reddish 2016, https:// doi.org/10.1038/nrn.2015.30). Given the emphasis the model places on sampling possible future locations to evaluate goal-distance gradients, this seems highly relevant.

      In our model, the possible future locations are sampled in real life, with the agent moving there or at least in that direction, e.g. via VTE movements. In this simple form the model has no provision for internal planning, and the animal never learns any specific route sequence. One can envision extending such a model with some form of sequence learning that would then support an internal planning mechanism. We mention this in the revised discussion section, along with citation of these relevant articles.

      Also, given the strong emphasis the authors place on the relationship of their model to chemotaxis/odour-guided navigation, it would be useful to discuss brain circuits involved in chemotaxis, and whether/how these circuits relate to those involved in goal-directed navigation, and the proposed model.

      The neural basis of goal-directed navigation is probably best understood in the insect brain. There the locomotor decisions seem to be initiated in the central complex, whose circuitry is getting revealed by the fly connectome projects. This area receives input from diverse sensory areas that deliver the signal on which the decisions are based. That includes the mushroom body, which we argue has the anatomical structure to implement the endotaxis algorithm. It remains a mystery how the insect chooses a particular goal for pursuit via its decisions. It could be revealing to force a change in goals (the mode switch in the endotaxis circuit) while recording from brain areas like the central complex. Our discussion now elaborates on this.

      Finally, it would be useful to clarify two aspects of the behaviour of the proposed algorithm:

      1) When discussing the relationship of the model to the successor representation (lines 620-627), the authors emphasise that learning in the model is independent of the policy followed by the agent during learning, while the successor representation is policy dependent. The policy independence of the model is achieved by making the synapses between map cells binary (0 or 1 weight) and setting them to 1 following a single transition between two locations. This makes the model unsuitable for learning the structure of graphs with probabilistic transitions, e.g. it would not behave adaptively in the widely used two-step task (Daw et al. 2011, https://doi.org/10.1016/ j.neuron.2011.02.027) as it would fail to differentiate between common and rare transitions. This limitation should be made clear and is particularly relevant to claims that the model can handle cognitive tasks in general. It is also worth noting that there are algorithms that are closely related to the successor representation, but which learn about the structure of the environment independent of the subjects policy, e.g. the work of Kaelbling which learns shortest path distances, and the default representation in the work of Piray and Daw (both referenced above). Both these approaches handle probabilistic transition structures.

      Yes. Our problem statement assumes that the environment is a graph with fixed edge weights. The revised text mentions this and other assumptions in a new section “Choice of learning rule”.

      2) As the model evaluates distances using powers of adjacency matrix, the resulting distances are diffusion distances not shortest path distances. Though diffusion and shortest path distances are usually closely correlated, they can differ systematically for some graphs (see Baram et al. ci:ted above).

      The recurrent network of map cells implements a specific function of the adjacency matrix, namely the resolvent (Eqn 7). We have a mathematical proof that this function delivers the shortest graph distances exactly, in the limit of small gain (γ in Eqn 7), and that this holds true for all graphs. For practical navigation in the presence of noise, one needs to raise the gain to something finite. Figure 3 analyzes how this affects deviations from the shortest graph distance, and how nonetheless the model still supports effective navigation over a surprising range. The mathematical details of the proof and further exploration of the resolvent distance at finite gain have been moved to a separate article, which is cited from here, and attached to the submission. The preprint by Baram et al. is cited in that article.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      This paper argues that it has developed an algorithm conceptually related to chemotaxis that provides a general mechanism for goal-directed behaviour in a biologically plausible neural form.

      The method depends on substantial simplifying assumptions. The simulated animal effectively moves through an environment consisting of discrete locations and can reliably detect when it is in each location. Whenever it moves from one location to an adjacent location, it perfectly learns the connectivity between these two locations (changes the value in an adjacency matrix to 1). This creates a graph of connections that reflects the explored environment. In this graph, the current location gets input activation and this spreads to all connected nodes multiplied by a constant decay (adjusted to the branching number of the graph) so that as the number of connection steps increases the activation decreases. Some locations will be marked as goals through experiencing a resource of a specific identity there, and subsequently will be activated by an amount proportional to their distance in the graph from the current location, i.e., their activation will increase if the agent moves a step closer and decrease if it moves a step further away. Hence by making such exploratory movements, the animal can decide which way to move to obtain a specified goal.

      I note here that it was not clear what purpose, other than increasing the effective range of activation, is served by having the goal input weights set based on the activation levels when the goal is obtained. As demonstrated in the homing behaviour, it is sufficient to just have a goal connected to a single location for the mechanism to work (i.e., the activation at that location increases if the animal takes a step closer to it); and as demonstrated by adding a new graph connection, goal activation is immediately altered in an appropriate way to exploit a new shortcut, without the goal weights corresponding to this graph change needing to be relearnt.

      As the reviewer states, allowing a graded strengthening of multiple synapses from the map cells increases the effective range of the goal signal. We have now confirmed this in simulations. For example, in the analysis of Fig 3E, a single goal synapse enables perfect navigation only over a range of 7 steps, whereas the distributed goal synapses allow perfect navigation over the full 12 steps. This analysis is included in the code notebook on Github.

      Given the abstractions introduced, it is clear that the biological task here has been reduced to the general problem of calculating the shortest path in a graph. That is, no real-world complications such as how to reliably recognise the same location when deciding that a new node should be introduced for a new location, or how to reliably execute movements between locations are addressed. Noise is only introduced as a 1% variability in the goal signal. It is therefore surprising that the main text provides almost no discussion of the conceptual relationship of this work to decades of previous work in calculating the shortest path in graphs, including a wide range of neural- and hardwarebased algorithms, many of which have been presented in the context of brain circuits.

      The connection to this work is briefly made in appendix A.1, where it is argued that the shortest path distance between two nodes in a directed graph can be calculated from equation 15, which depends only on the adjacency matrix and the decay parameter (provided the latter falls below a given value). It is not clear from the presentation whether this is a novel result. No direct reference is given for the derivation so I assume it is novel. But if this is a previously unknown solution to the general problem it deserves to be much more strongly featured and either way it needs to be appropriately set in the context of previous work.

      As far as we know this proposal for computing all-pairs-shortest-path is novel. We could not find it in textbooks or an extended literature search. We have discussed it with two graph theorist colleagues, who could not recall seeing it before, although the proof of the relationship is elementary. Inspired by the present reviewer comment, we chose to publish the result in a separate article that can focus on the mathematics and place it in the appropriate context of prior work in graph theory. For related work in the area of neural modeling please see our revised discussion section.

      Once this principle is grasped, the added value of the simulated results is somewhat limited. These show: 1) in practical terms, the spreading signal travels further for a smaller decay but becomes erratic as the decay parameter (map neuron gain) approaches its theoretical upper bound and decreases below noise levels beyond a certain distance. Both follow the theory. 2) that different graph structures can be acquired and used to approach goal locations (not surprising) .3) that simultaneous learning and exploitation of the graph only minimally affects the performance over starting with perfect knowledge of the graph. 4) that the parameters interact in expected ways. It might have been more impactful to explore whether the parameters could be dynamically tuned, based on the overall graph activity.

      This is a good summary of our simulation results, but we differ in the assessment of their value. In our experience, simulations can easily demolish an idea that seemed wonderful before exposure to numerical reality. For example, it is well known that one can build a neural integrator from a recurrent network that has feedback gain of exactly 1. In practical simulations, though, these networks tend to be fickle and unstable, and require unrealistically accurate tuning of the feedback gain. In our case, the theory predicts that there is a limited range of gains that should work, below the critical value, but large enough to avoid excessive decay of the signal. Simulation was needed to test what this practical range was, and we were pleasantly surprised that it is not ridiculously small, with robust navigation over a 10-20% range. Similarly, we did not predict that the same parameters would allow for effective acquisition of a new graph, learning of targets within the graph, and shortest-route navigation to those targets, without requiring any change in the operation of the network.

      Perhaps the most biologically interesting aspect of the work is to demonstrate the effectiveness, for flexible behaviour, of keeping separate the latent learning of environmental structure and the association of specific environmental states to goals or values. This contrasts (as the authors discuss) with the standard reinforcement learning approach, for example, that tries to learn the value of states that lead to reward. Examples of flexibility include the homing behaviour (a goal state is learned before any of the map is learned) and the patrolling behaviour (a goal cell that monitors all states for how recently they were visited). It is also interesting to link the mechanism of exploration of neighbouring states to observed scanning behaviours in navigating animals.

      The mapping to brain circuits is less convincing. Specifically, for the analogy to the mushroom body, it is not clear what connectivity (in the MB) is supposed to underlie the graph structure which is crucial to the whole concept. Is it assumed that Kenyon cell connections perform the activation spreading function and that these connections are sufficiently adaptable to rapidly learn the adjacency matrix? Is there any evidence for this?

      Yes, there is good evidence for recurrent synapses among Kenyon cells (map cells in the model), and for reward-gated synaptic plasticity at the synapses onto mushroom body output cells (goal cells in our model). We have expanded this material in the discussion section. Whether those functions are sufficient to learn the structure of a spatial environment has not been explored; we hope our paper might give an impetus, and are exploring behavioral experiments on flies with colleagues.

      As discussed above, the possibility that an algorithm like 'endotaxis' could explain how the rodent place cell system could support trajectory planning has already been explored in previous work so it is not clear what additional insight is gained from the current model.

      Please see our revised discussion section on “theories and models of spatial learning”. In short, some ingredients of the model have appeared in prior work, but we believe that the present formulation offers an unexpectedly simple end-to-end solution for all components of navigation: exploration, target learning, and goal seeking.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Major concern:

      See the public review. How do the results change depending on whether the recurrent connections between map cells are an adjacency matrix vs. a properly normalized statetransition matrix? I'm especially asking about results related to critical gain (gamma_c), and the dependence of the optimal parameter values on the environment.

      Please see our response above including the attached reviewer figure.

      Minor concerns:

      It is not always clear when the learning rule is symmetric vs asymmetric (undirected vs directed graph), and it seems to switch back and forth. For example, line 127 refers to a directed graph; Fig 2B and the intro describe symmetric Hebbian learning. Most (all?) of the simulations use the symmetric rule. Please make sure it's clear.

      For simplicity we now use a symmetric rule throughout, as is appropriate for undirected graphs. We mention that a directed learning rule could be used to learn directed graphs. See the section on “choice of learning rule”. M_ij is not defined when it's first introduced (eq 4). Consider labeling the M's and the G's in Fig 2.

      Done.

      The network gain factor (gamma, eq 4) is distributed over both external and recurrent inputs (v = gamma(u + Mv)), instead of local to the recurrent weights like in the Successor Representation. This notational choice is obviously up to the authors. I raise slight concern for two reasons -- first, distributing gamma may affect some of the parameter sweep results (see major concern), and second, it may be confusing in light of how gamma is used in the SR literature (see reviewer's paper for the derivation of how SR is computed by an RNN with gain gamma).

      In our model, gamma represents the (linear) activation function of the map neuron, from synaptic input to firing output. Because the synaptic input comes from point cells and also from other map cells, the gain factor is applied to both. See for example the Dayan & Abbott book Eqn 7.11, which at steady state becomes our Eqn 4. In the formalism of Fang 2023 (Eqn 2), the factor γ is only applied to the recurrent synaptic input J ⋅ f, but somehow not to the place cell input ϕ. Biophysically, one could imagine applying the variable gain only to the recurrent synapses and not the feed-forward ones. Instead we prefer to think of it as modulating the gain of the neurons, rather than the synapses. The SR literature follows conventions from the early reinforcement learning papers, which were unconstrained by thinking about neurons and synapses. We have added a footnote pointing the reader to the uses of γ in different papers.

      In eq 13, and simulations, noise is added to the output only, not to the activity of recurrently connected neurons. It is possible this underestimates the impact of noise since the same magnitude of noise in the recurrent network (map cells) could have a compounded effect on the output.

      Certainly. The equivalent output noise represents the cumulative effect of noise everywhere in the network. We argue that a cumulative effect of 1% is reasonable given the overall ability of animals at stimulus discrimination, which is also limited by noise everywhere in the network. This has been clarified in the text.

      Fig 3 E, F, it looks like the navigated distance may be capped. I ask because the error bars for graph distance = 12 are so small/nonexistent. If it's capped, this should be in the legend.

      Correct. 12 is the largest distance on this graph. This has been added to the caption.

      Fig 3D legend, what does "navigation failed" mean? These results are not shown.

      On those occasions the agent gets trapped at a local maximum of the goal signal other than the intended goal. We have removed that line as it is not needed to interpret the data.

      Line 446, typo (Lateron).

      Fixed.

      Line 475, I'm a bit confused by the discussion of birds and bats. Bird behavior in the real world does involve discrete paths between points. Even if they theoretically could fly between any points, there are costs to doing so, and in practice, they often choose discrete favorite paths. It is definitely plausible that animals that can fly could also employ Endotaxis, so it is confusing to suggest they don't have the right behavior for Endotaxis, especially given the focus on fruit flies later in the discussion.

      Good points, we removed that remark. Regarding fruit flies, they handle much important business while walking, such as tracking a mate, fighting rivals over food, finding a good oviposition site.

      Section 9.3, I'm a bit confused by the discussion of cerebellum-like structures, because I don't think they have as dense recurrent connections as needed for the map cells in Endotaxis. Are you suggesting they are analogous to the output part of Endotaxis only, not the whole thing?

      Please see our reply in the public review. We have removed this discussion of cerebellar circuits.

      Line 541, "After sufficient exploration...", clarify that this is describing learning of just the output synapses, not the recurrent connections between map cells?

      We have revised this entire section on the arthropod mushroom body.

      In lines 551-556, the discussion is confusing and possibly not consistent with current literature. How can a simulation prove that synapses in the hippocampus are only strengthened among immediately adjacent place fields? I'd suggest either removing this discussion or adding further clarification. More broadly, the connection between Endotaxis and the hippocampus is very compelling. This might also be a good point to bring up BTSP (though you do already bring it up later).

      As suggested, we removed this section.

      Line 621 "The successor representation (at least as currently discussed) is designed to improve learning under a particular policy" That's not actually accurate. Ref 17 (reviewer's manuscript, cited here) is not policy-specific, and instead just learns the transition statistics experienced by the animal, using a biologically plausible learning rule that is very similar to the Endotaxis map cell learning rule (see our Appendix 5, comparing to Endotaxis, though that was referencing the previous version of the Endotaxis preprint where Oja's rule was used).

      We have edited this section in the discussion and removed the reference to policyspecific successor representations.

      Line 636 "Endotaxis is always on" ... this was not clear earlier in the paper (e.g. line 268, and the separation of different algorithms, and "while learning do" in Algorithm 2).

      The learning rules are suspended during some simulations so we can better measure the effects of different parts of endotaxis, in particular learning vs navigating. There is no interference between these two functions, and an agent benefits from having the learning rules on all the time. The text now clarifies this in the relevant sections.

      Section 9.6, I like the idea of tracing different connected functions. But when you say "that could lead to the mode switch"... I'm a bit confused about what is meant here. A mode switch doesn't need to happen in a different brain area/network, because winnertake-all could be implemented by mutual inhibition between the different goal units.

      This is an interesting suggestion for the high-level control algorithm. A Lorenzian view is that the animal’s choice of mode depends on internal states or drives, such as thirst vs hunger, that compete with each other. In that picture the goal cells represent options to be pursued, whereas the choice among the options occurs separately. But one could imagine that the arbitrage between drives happens through a competition at the level of goal cells: For example the consumption of water could lead to adaptation of the water cell, such that it loses out in the winner-take-all competition, the food cell takes over, and the mouse now navigates towards food. In this closed-loop picture, the animal doesn’t have to “know” what it wants at any given time, it just wants the right thing. This could eliminate the homunculus entirely! Of course this is all a bit speculative. We have edited the closing comments in a way that leaves open this possibility.

      Line 697-704, I need more step-by-step explanation/derivation.

      We now derive the properties of E step by step starting from Eqn (14). The proof that leads to Eqn 14 is now in a separate article (available as a preprint and attached to this submission).

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      • Please include discussion and comparison to previous work of graph-based trajectory planning using spreading activation from the current node and/or the goal node. Here is a (far from comprehensive) list of papers that present similar algorithms:

      Glasius, R., Komoda, A., & Gielen, S. C. (1996). A biologically inspired neural net for trajectory formation and obstacle avoidance. Biological Cybernetics, 74(6), 511-520.

      Gaussier, P., Revel, A., Banquet, J. P., & Babeau, V. (2002). From view cells and place cells to cognitive map learning: processing stages of the hippocampal system. Biological cybernetics, 86(1), 15-28.

      Gorchetchnikov A, Hasselmo ME. A biophysical implementation of a bidirectional graph search algorithm to solve multiple goal navigation tasks. Connection Science. 2005;17(1-2):145-166

      Martinet, L. E., Sheynikhovich, D., Benchenane, K., & Arleo, A. (2011). Spatial learning and action planning in a prefrontal cortical network model. PLoS computational biology, 7(5), e1002045.

      Ponulak, F., & Hopfield, J. J. (2013). Rapid, parallel path planning by propagating wavefronts of spiking neural activity. Frontiers in computational neuroscience, 7, 98.

      Khajeh-Alijani, A., Urbanczik, R., & Senn, W. (2015). Scale-free navigational planning by neuronal traveling waves. PloS one, 10(7), e0127269.

      Adamatzky, A. (2017). Physical maze solvers. All twelve prototypes implement 1961 Lee algorithm. In Emergent computation (pp. 489-504). Springer, Cham.

      Please see our reply to the public review above, and the new discussion section on “Theories and models of spatial learning”, which cites most of these papers among others.

      • Please explain, if it is the case, why the goal cell learning (other than a direct link between the goal and the corresponding map location) and calculation of the overlapping 'goal signal' is necessary, or at least advantageous.

      Please see our reply in the public review above.

      • Map cells are initially introduced (line 84) as getting input from "only one or a few point cells". The rest of the paper seems to assume only one. Does it work when this is 'a few'? Does it matter that 'a few' is an option?

      We simplified the text here to “only one point cell”. A map cell with input from two distant locations creates problems. After learning the map synapses from adjacencies in the environment, the model now “believes” that those two locations are connected. This distorts the graph on which the graph distances are computed and introduces errors in the resulting goal signals. One can elaborate the present toy model with a much larger population of map cells that might convey more robustness, but that is beyond our current scope.

      • (line 539 on) Please explain what feature in the mushroom body (or other cerebellumlike) circuits is proposed to correspond to the learning of connections in the adjacency matrix in the model.

      Please see our response to this critique in the public review above. In the mushroom body, the Kenyon cells exhibit sparse responses and are recurrently connected. These would correspond to map cells in Endotaxis. For vertebrate cerebellum-like circuits, the correspondence is less compelling, and we have removed this topic from the discussion.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Lu et. al. proposed here a direct role of LPS in inducing hepatic fat accumulation and that the metabolism of LPS therefore can mitigate fatty liver injury. With an Acyloxyacyl hydrolase whole-body KO mice, they demonstrated that Acyloxyacyl hydrolase deletion resulted in higher hepatic fat accumulation over 8 months of high glucose/high fructose diet. Previous literature has found that hepatocyte TLR4 (which is a main receptor for binding LPS) KO reduced fatty liver in the MAFLD model, and this paper complements this by showing that degradation/metabolism of LPS can also reduce fatty liver. This result proposed a very interesting mechanism and the translational implications of utilizing Acyloxyacyl hydrolase to decrease LPS exposure are intriguing.

      The strengths of the present study include that they raised a very simplistic mechanism with LPS that is of interest in many diseases. The phenotype shown in the study is strong. The mechanism proposed by the findings is generally well supported.

      There are also several shortcomings in the findings of this study. As AOAH is a whole-body KO, the source production of AOAH in MAFLD is unclear. Although the authors used published single-cell RNA-seq data and flow-isolated liver cells, physiologically LPS degradation could occur in the blood or the liver. The authors linked LPS to hepatocyte fatty acid oxidation via SREBP1. The mechanism is not explored in great depth. Is this signaling TLR4? In this model, LPS could activate macrophages and mediate the worsening of hepatocyte fatty liver injury via the paracrine effect instead of directly signaling to hepatocytes, thus it is not clear that this is a strictly hepatocyte LPS effect. It would also be very interesting to see if administration of the AOAH enzyme orally could mitigate MAFLD injury. Overall, this work will add to the current understanding of the gut-liver axis and development of MAFLD and will be of interest to many readers.

      We thank the reviewers for their important questions and comments.

      In previous studies we found that AOAH is expressed in Kupffer cells and dendritic cells cells (Shao et al., 2007). Single-cell RNAseq analysis of mouse livers by others has found AOAH in Kupffer cells, monocytes, NK cells and ILC1 cells (Remmerie et al.,2020). We also analyzed human liver single-cell RNAseq data and found that AOAH is expressed in monocytes, macrophages, resident and circulating NK cells, and some T cells (Ramachandran et al., 2019) (Please see new Figure 3E). Using clodronate-liposomes to deplete Kupffer cells we found that hepatic AOAH mRNA diminished and nSREBP1 increased (Please see new Figure 5D). These results suggest that Kupffer cells are the major source of AOAH in the liver and that LPS needs to be inactivated in the liver to prevent hepatocyte lipid accumulation.

      Using primary hepatocyte culture, we found that LPS can stimulate hepatocytes directly to induce mTOR activation and SREBP1 activation (new Figure 6E). Adding purified Kupffer cells to the hepatocyte culture did not further increase SREBP1 activation. These results suggest that LPS may directly stimulate hepatocyte to accumulate fat, at least in vitro.

      Both TLR4 and caspase 11 are reported to play important roles in MASLD development (Sharifnia et al., 2015; Zhu et al., 2021). We have crossed Aoah<sup>-/-</sup> mice with TLR4<sup>-/-</sup> mice and found that Aoah<sup>-/-</sup>TLR4<sup>-/-</sup> and Aoah<sup>-/-</sup> mice had similarly severe MASLD. This is probably because TLR4 is required for gut homeostasis (Rakoff-Nahoum et al., 2004); in TLR4 whole-body KO mice compromised gut homeostasis may result in more severe MASLD. By specifically deleting TLR4 on hepatocytes, Yu et al found that NASH-induced fibrosis was mitigated (Yu et al., 2021). In future studies we therefore would need to specifically delete TLR4 in hepatocytes to test whether excessive gut-derived LPS in Aoah<sup>-/-</sup> mice stimulates hepatic TLR4 to induce more severe MASLD. We would also test whether Caspase 11 is required for hepatic fat accumulation in Aoah<sup>-/-</sup> mice.

      It is intriguing to test whether providing exogenous AOAH may mitigate MASLD. We will use an AAV expressing AOAH to test this idea.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      The authors of this article investigated the impact of the host enzyme AOAH on the progression of MASLD in mice. To achieve this, they utilized whole-body Aoah<sup>-/-</sup> mice. The authors demonstrated that AOAH reduced LPS-induced lipid accumulation in the liver, probably by decreasing the expression and activation of SREBP1. In addition, AOAH reduced hepatic inflammation and minimized tissue damage.

      However, this paper is descriptive without a clear mechanistic study. Another major limitation is the use of whole-body KO mice so the cellular source of the enzyme remains undefined. Moreover, since LPS-mediated SREBP1 regulation or LPS-mediated MASLD progression is already documented, the role of AOAH in SREBP1-dependent lipid accumulation and MASLD progression is largely expected.

      Specific comments:

      (1) The overall human relevance of the current study remains unclear.

      It is a good point. We have studied human relevance and show the results in Figure 3E. AOAH expression increased in the hepatic macrophages and monocytes of MASLD patients.

      (2) Is AOAH secreted from macrophages or other immune cells? Are there any other functions of AOAH within the cells?

      AOAH can be secreted from kidney proximal tubule cells and the released AOAH can be taken up by cells that do not express AOAH (Feulner et al., 2004). AOAH can also deacylate oxidized phospholipids, DAMP molecules (Zou et al., 2021).

      (3) Due to using whole-body KO mice, the role of AOAH in specific cell types was unclear in this study, which is one of the major limitations of this study. The authors should at least conduct in vitro experiments using a co-culture system of hepatocytes and Kupffer cells (or other immune cells) isolated from WT or Aoah<sup>-/-</sup> mice.

      Thanks for the suggestion.

      Using clodronate-liposomes, we depleted Kupffer cells and found that hepatic AOAH mRNA diminished and nSREBP1 increased in the liver (Please see new Figure 5D). These results confirm that Kupffer cells are the major source of AOAH in the liver and LPS needs to be inactivated in the liver to prevent hepatocyte lipid accumulation.  Using primary hepatocyte culture, we found that LPS can stimulate hepatocytes directly to induce mTOR activation and SREBP1 activation (new Figure 6E).  These results suggest that LPS may directly stimulate hepatocytes to accumulate fat, at least in vitro.

      (4) It has been well-known that intestinal tight junction permeability is increased by LPS or inflammatory cytokines. However, in Figure 3E, intestinal permeability is comparable between the groups in both diet groups. The authors should discuss more about this result. In addition, intestinal junctional protein should be determined by Western blot and IHC (or IF) to further confirm this finding.

      We have stained ZO-1 (Please see Author response image 1, ZO-1- green fluorescence) in Aoah<sup>+/+</sup> and Aoah<sup>-/-</sup> mouse colonic sections. We did not see a big difference between the two strains of mice.

      Author response image 1.

      Feeding a high fat diet in our mouse facility for 28 weeks has led to increased gut permeability, but there was no difference between Aoah<sup>+/+</sup> and Aoah<sup>-/-</sup>mice. Thus, the more severe MASLD in Aoah<sup>-/-</sup> mice is mainly caused by elevated bioactive LPS instead of increased LPS translocation from the intestine to the liver.

      (5) In Figure 6, the LPS i.g. Aoah<sup>-/-</sup> group is missing. This group should be included to better interpret the results.

      Please see new Figure 6. When we orally gavaged Aoah<sup>-/-</sup> mice with LPS, fecal LPS levels did not increase further. Their liver SREBP1 did not increase further while the SREBP1 target gene expression increased when compared with Aoah<sup>-/-</sup> mice i.g. PBS.

      (6) The term NAFLD has been suggested to be changed to MASLD as the novel nomenclature according to the guidelines of AASLD and EASL.

      Thanks for the suggestion. We have changed NAFLD to MASLD.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Consider using MAFLD rather than NAFLD.

      Thanks for the suggestion. We have changed NAFLD to MASLD.

      References

      Feulner, J.A., M. Lu, J.M. Shelton, M. Zhang, J.A. Richardson, and R.S. Munford. 2004. Identification of acyloxyacyl hydrolase, a lipopolysaccharide-detoxifying enzyme, in the murine urinary tract. Infection and immunity 72:3171-3178.

      Zou, B., M. Goodwin, D. Saleem, W. Jiang, J. Tang, Y. Chu, R.S. Munford, and M. Lu. 2021. A highly conserved host lipase deacylates oxidized phospholipids and ameliorates acute lung injury in mice. eLife 10:

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      Comment 1: The descriptions about body weights should be matched.

      Regrettably, we did not monitor the body weights throughout the study. We have now revised the description clarifying the confusions. Importantly we evaluated the weights of the muscle (EDL and soleus) and heart tissues in 8-month-old mice (Fig. 1A).

      Comment 2: Quantitative data for figures.

      As stated in the manuscript, the presented images are representatives of at least three mice per genotype. However, assessing specific measurements such as cell sizes, diameters, or mitochondria sizes in histological tissue sections and electron microscopical fields is not feasible due to practical limitations. Unfortunately, we do not have access to specialized software for such analyses. While semi-quantification of Western blot bands is possible, implementing this for all Western blots in the manuscript would result in a substantial increase in the number of bar graphics. Below are Western blots from additional two pairs of mice used in all figures.

      Comment 3: Confusions about “total mitochondrial content”.

      The mitochondria content in cells was assessed by quantitatively comparing the DNA level of the mitochondrial gene cytochrome B to that of the nuclear gene 18S using quantitative PCR. This method is commonly used to determine the relative number of mitochondria in cells. However, we have revised and provided a clearer description in the figure legend to avoid any potential confusion.

      Comment 4: Suggestions on further analyses of PGC1-alpha and TFAM. LC3-I and -II.

      We evaluated LC3-I/II levels in PTPMT1 knockout muscles, and our findings did not indicate any signs of increased autophagic activity (Supplementary Figure S3). We will examine PGC1-alph and TFAM levels in our future studies. It is worth noting that in our previous RNA-seq analyses of PTPMT1 knockout hematopoietic cells, we did not observe any significant alterations in the expression levels of these two genes.

      Comment 5: Description on fibrotic lesions.

      Quantifying fibrotic areas poses a significant challenge. Therefore, we were only able to describe this finding.

      Comment 6: Fig 6 is not well organized and aligned.

      In response to your suggestion, we have reorganized this figure accordingly. Panels C, D, and E display mitochondrial OCR data derived from three biological replicates/genotype. We feel that these changes are sufficient to demonstrate the differences in substrate utilization between PTPMT1 knockout and control mitochondria.

      Comment 7: Descriptions on glucose oxidation and glycolysis in different types of muscle fibers are confusing

      We have followed the suggestions and revised the descriptions accordingly.

      Comment 8: A discussion about lactate utilization in cardiomyocytes would be helpful.

      Following this suggestion, we have now added a brief discussion.

      Comment 9: “Cropped” images were used in Fig 10.

      The images shown in Fig. 10 were not cropped images. In order to efficiently use the tissue and mitochondrial lysates, the Western blot membranes were intentionally cut into smaller fragments based on the molecular weights of the proteins to be detected. These smaller membrane sections were then employed for individual Western blotting purposes.

      Minor comment 1: The order of Fig 1 panels should be reorganized.

      Following this suggestion, we have now reorganized this figure.

      Minor comment 2: Suggestion for an Echocardiograph result table.

      These analyses were carried out by trained personnel at the Emory Animal Physiology Core. The data presented in our manuscript was provided by them. It is important to note that no additional parameters were measured beyond the data provided by the Core.

      Minor comment 3: Is ROS production increased in PTPMT1 knockout muscle cells?

      Yes, PTPMT1 knockout tissues showed elevated overall cellular ROS levels even at 3 months (Figure 6I).

      Minor comment 4: Typo in S10 legend.

      The typo has been corrected.


      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Comment 1: The effects of PTPMT1 on the skeletal muscle and heart might be an embryonic defect. They might be mediated by significantly reduced mTOR signaling

      We acknowledge the valid point made by this reviewer. While both CKMM-Cre and Myh6Cre express Cre during the embryonic stage, we did not observe any developmental defects in skeletal muscle-specific (PTPMT1fl/fl/CKMM-Cre) or heart-specific (PTPMT1fl/fl/Myh6-Cre) knockout mice. These knockout mice appeared indistinguishable from their WT littermates until the age of 3-4 months.

      Morphologically, the skeletal muscle and heart dissected from these mice showed no abnormalities. Additionally, mitochondria isolated from these tissues did not exhibit any morphological/structural defects. Undoubtedly, the late-onset phenotypes observed in the knockout mice over time was attributed to the metabolic defects arising from the loss of PTPMT1 in the embryos. Although PTPMT1 knockout muscle cells and cardiomyocytes initially maintained energy homeostasis through enhanced fatty acid and glutamate oxidation, along with metabolic adaptations or activation of alternative energy-producing pathways in the first few months, they eventually encountered substantial energy deficits. This was attributed to the subsequent occurrence of oxidative stress and mitochondrial damage. In response to this valuable feedback, we have included a brief discussion in the manuscript's discussion section to address this point.

      As mentioned in the manuscript, the late-onset phenotypes observed in our study were likely a result of subsequent damages induced by prolonged metabolic substrate shift and lipid accumulation within the cells. We agree with the reviewer that decreased mTOR activities may also contribute to these late effects, and have included a brief discussion in the discussion section.

      Comment 2: Why are the effects of the loss of PTPMT1 similar in the skeletal muscle and heart.

      The depletion of PTPMT1 yields similar effects in both tissue types; however, the manifestations occur earlier in the skeletal muscle. Although mitochondria in the skeletal muscle and heart have distinct preferences for energy sources, prolonged forced utilization of fatty acids caused by PTPMT1 depletion eventually leads to lipid accumulation and cellular damage (lipotoxicity) in both tissue types. This phenomenon underscores the importance of maintaining a balance in substrate utilization to prevent adverse effects on cellular health in the skeletal muscle and heart.

      Comment 3: AMPK is activated in PTPMT1 knockout cardiomyocytes; this should have cardioprotective effects.

      AMPK can be activated through various mechanisms. In our study, AMPK activation occurs in response to energetic stress in late-stage PTPMT1 knockout tissues that displayed significantly reduced ATP levels, aligning with its role as a bioenergetic stress sensor. It is possible that AMPK activation alone was insufficient to overcome the secondary damages induced by the prolonged metabolic switch from carbohydrate metabolism to fatty acid metabolism.

      Comment 4: Knockout skeletal muscles and hearts had lipid accumulation; why were knockout mice smaller than controls? Are there any changes in white fat, core temperature or browning of fat? Rescue experiments should be considered to prove that lipid accumulation is the cause of death in the knockout mice.

      We believe that the lipid accumulation observed in muscle cells and cardiomyocytes of the knockout mice does not necessarily imply that these tissue-specific knockout mice would be heavier or have increased body fat. We appreciate the suggestions regarding energy expenditure tests and rescue experiments. We will certainly consider incorporating these experiments into our future study.

      As stated in the manuscript, we did not observe any morphological changes in white or brown fat tissues in the adipocyte-specific PTPMT1 knockout mice. Furthermore, we assessed body temperature and its response to a cold environment (4°C), and no differences were detected between the knockout mice and the control mice.

      Comment 5: Are there sex differences in muscle and heart phenotypes in the tissue specific knockout mice?

      We did not observe significant differences in phenotypes between male and female knockout mice.

      Comment 6: What happens to UCP2 activity in PTPMT1 deleted cells and what is its function in mediating AMPK and/mTOR regulation.

      Currently, there is a lack of direct methods available to measure UCP2 activity. The relationship between UCP2 and the regulation of AMPK and mTOR has not been extensively investigated.

      Comment 7: What is the effect of PTPMT1 deletion on cardiolipin synthesis?

      PTPMT1 has been implicated in both facilitating mitochondrial utilization of pyruvate and participating in the synthesis of cardiolipin. To investigate the impact of PTPMT1 knockout on cardiolipin levels, we plan to establish a mass spectrometry assay for the quantitative analysis of cardiolipin in knockout mitochondria. Completing these experiments might require a considerable amount of time. Nonetheless, we extensively addressed this point in the discussion section.

      Minor concerns:

      Comment 8: The title needs more specificity.

      As suggested, we have revised the title to "Loss of PTPMT1 restricts mitochondrial utilization of carbohydrates and induces muscle atrophy and heart failure in tissue-specific knockout mice".

      Comment 9: Heart and skeletal muscle weights in Fig 1A should be normalized against tibia length.

      Unfortunately, we did not perform normalization in this study. However, we appreciate the suggestion and will incorporate it into our future studies. It is important to note that the lengths of tibias in the knockout mice were only marginally shorter.

      Comment 10: Low magnification and longitudinal section of the muscle should be shown in Fig 1B and 2A.

      The histological images provide supporting evidence for the conclusion, despite not being optimal in quality. We acknowledge the suggested improvements and assure you that we will integrate them into our future studies. It is crucial to emphasize that each conclusion in this study was derived from multiple experimental designs, rather than solely relying on morphological changes.

      Comment 11: Fig 1F is mislabeled as 1G.

      We have conducted a thorough review and can confidently confirm that the labeling is correct.

      Comment 12: Fig 2F and 6B should be quantified.

      As indicated in the manuscript, the images presented are representatives of at least three mice per genotype. While semi-quantification of Western blot bands is possible, implementing this for all Western blots in the manuscript would result in a substantial increase in the number of bar graphics. Below are Western blot images from additional two pairs of mice included in Fig. 2F and Fig. 6B. Furthermore, Western blot images from two additional pairs of mice in other figures are also provided below.

      Author response image 1

      Western blotting data from additional two pairs of mice in Fig. 2F.

      Author response image 2

      Western blotting data from additional two pairs of mice in Fig. 6B.

      Author response image 3

      Western blotting data from additional two pairs of mice in Supplementary Fig. 2G.

      Author response image 4

      Western blotting data from additional two pairs of mice in Supplementary Fig. 3A.

      Author response image 5

      Western blotting data from additional two pairs of mice in Supplementary Fig. 3C.

      Author response image 6

      Western blotting data from additional two pairs of mice in Supplementary Fig. 3D.

      Author response image 7

      Western blotting data from additional two pairs of mice in Supplementary Fig. 4F.

      Author response image 8

      Western blotting data from additional two pairs of mice in

      Author response image 9

      Western blotting data from additional two pairs of mice in Supplementary Fig. 7C.

      Comment 13: Knockout mice should be placed on HFD or keto diet to test for the effects of PTPMT1 depletion.

      We appreciate this thoughtful suggestion. We will certainly incorporate this suggestion into our future studies, expanding beyond the scope of the current initial report.

      Comment 14: Suggestions on Fig 4A.

      Please see our response to Comment 10.

      Comment 15: Suggestions for improving echocardiographs.

      These analyses were conducted by trained personnel at the Emory Animal Physiology Core. The data presented in our manuscript was provided by them. We appreciate bringing the issues to our attention, and we will inform them accordingly.

      Comment 16: Comment on Fig 5B.

      The tissues were sectioned at comparable, if not identical, levels. WT and PTPMT1 knockout heart sections look dramatically different because of the dilated myopathy observed in the knockout hearts.

      Comment 17: Comment on Fig 5C.

      We believe the cell death occurred predominantly in cardiomyocytes.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      Gating of Kv10 channels is unique because it involves coupling between non-domain swapped voltage sensing domains, a domain-swapped cytoplasmic ring assembly formed by the N- and C-termini, and the pore domain. Recent structural data suggests that activation of the voltage sensing domain relieves a steric hindrance to pore opening, but the contribution of the cytoplasmic domain to gating is still not well understood. This aspect is of particular importance because proteins like calmodulin interact with the cytoplasmic domain to regulate channel activity. The effects of calmodulin (CaM) in WT and mutant channels with disrupted cytoplasmic gating ring assemblies are contradictory, resulting in inhibition or activation, respectively. The underlying mechanism for these discrepancies is not understood. In the present manuscript, Reham Abdelaziz and collaborators use electrophysiology, biochemistry and mathematical modeling to describe how mutations and deletions that disrupt inter-subunit interactions at the cytoplasmic gating ring assembly affect Kv10.1 channel gating and modulation by CaM. In the revised manuscript, additional information is provided to allow readers to identify within the Kv10.1 channel structure the location of E600R, one of the key channel mutants analyzed in this study. However, the mechanistic role of the cytoplasmic domains that this study focuses on, as well as the location of the ΔPASCap deletion and other perturbations investigated in the study remain difficult to visualize without additional graphical information. This can make it challenging for readers to connect the findings presented in the study with a structural mechanism of channel function.

      The authors focused mainly on two structural perturbations that disrupt interactions within the cytoplasmic domain, the E600R mutant and the ΔPASCap deletion. By expressing mutants in oocytes and recording currents using Two Electrode Voltage-Clamp (TEV), it is found that both ΔPASCap and E600R mutants have biphasic conductance-voltage (G-V) relations and exhibit activation and deactivation kinetics with multiple voltage-dependent components. Importantly, the mutant-specific component in the G-V relations is observed at negative voltages where WT channels remain closed. The authors argue that the biphasic behavior in the G-V relations is unlikely to result from two different populations of channels in the oocytes, because they found that the relative amplitude between the two components in the G-V relations was highly reproducible across individual oocytes that otherwise tend to show high variability in expression levels. Instead, the G-V relations for all mutant channels could be well described by an equation that considers two open states O1 and O2, and a transition between them; O1 appeared to be unaffected by any of the structural manipulations tested (i.e. E600R, ΔPASCap, and other deletions) whereas the parameters for O2 and the transition between the two open states were different between constructs. The O1 state is not observed in WT channels and is hypothesized to be associated with voltage sensor activation. O2 represents the open state that is normally observed in WT channels and is speculated to be associated with conformational changes within the cytoplasmic gating ring that follow voltage sensor activation, which could explain why the mutations and deletions disrupting cytoplasmic interactions affect primarily O2. 

      Severing the covalent link between the voltage sensor and pore reduced O1 occupancy in one of the deletion constructs. Although this observation is consistent with the hypothesis that voltage-sensor activation drives entry into O1, this result is not conclusive. Structural as well as functional data has established that the coupling of the voltage sensor and pore does not entirely rely on the S4-S5 covalent linker between the sensor and the pore, and thus the severed construct could still retain coupling through other mechanisms, which is consistent with the prominent voltage dependence that is observed. If both states O1 and O2 require voltage sensor activation, it is unclear why the severed construct would affect state O1 primarily, as suggested in the manuscript, as opposed to decreasing occupancy of both open states. In line with this argument, the presence of Mg2+ in the extracellular solution affected both O1 and O2. This finding suggests that entry into both O1 and O2 requires voltage-sensor activation because Mg2+ ions are known to stabilize the voltage sensor in its most deactivated conformations. 

      We agree with the reviewer that access to both states requires a conformational change in the voltage sensor. This was stated in our revised article: “In contrast, to enter O2, all subunits must complete both voltage sensor transitions and the collective gating ring transition.” We interpret the two gating steps as sequential; the effective rotation of the intracellular ring would happen only once the sensor is in its fully activated position.

      We also agree that the S4-S5 segment cannot be the only interaction mechanism, as we demonstrated in our earlier work (Lörinczi et al., 2015; Tomczak et al., 2017).  

      Activation towards and closure from O1 is slow, whereas channels close rapidly from O2. A rapid alternating pulse protocol was used to take advantage of the difference in activation and deactivation kinetics between the two open components in the mutants and thus drive an increasing number of channels towards state O1. Currents activated by the alternating protocol reached larger amplitudes than those elicited by a long depolarization to the same voltage. This finding is interpreted as an indication that O1 has a larger macroscopic conductance than O2. In the revised manuscript, the authors performed single-channel recordings to determine why O1 and O2 have different macroscopic conductance. The results show that at voltages where the state O1 predominates, channels exhibited longer open times and overall higher open probability, whereas at more depolarized voltages where occupancy of O2 increases, channels exhibited more flickery gating behavior and decreased open probability. These results are informative but not conclusive because additional details about how experiments were conducted, and group data analysis are missing. Importantly, results showing inhibition of single ΔPASCap channels by a Kv10-specific inhibitor are mentioned but not shown or quantitated - these data are essential to establish that the new O1 conductance indeed represents Kv10 channel activity.

      We observed the activity of a channel compatible with Kv10.1 ΔPAS-Cap (long openings at low-moderate potentials, very short flickery activity at strong depolarizations) in 12 patches from oocytes obtained from different frog operations over a period of two and a half months once the experimental conditions could be established. As stated in the text, we did not proceed to generate amplitude histograms because we could not resolve clear single-channel events at strong depolarizations. Astemizole abolished the activity and (remarkably) strongly reduced the noise in traces at strong depolarizations, which we interpret as partially caused by flicker openings.

      Author response image 1.

      We include two example recordings of Astemizole application (100µM) on two different patches. Both recordings are performed at -60 mV (to decrease the likelihood that the channel visits O2) with 100 mM internal and 60 mM external K+. In both cases, the traces in Astemizole are presented in red.

      It is shown that conditioning pulses to very negative voltages result in mutant channel currents that are larger and activate more slowly than those elicited at the same voltage but starting from less negative conditioning pulses. In voltage-activated curves, O1 occupancy is shown to be favored by increasingly negative conditioning voltages. This is interpreted as indicating that O1 is primarily accessed from deeply closed states in which voltage sensors are in their most deactivated position. Consistently, a mutation that destabilizes these deactivated states is shown to largely suppress the first component in voltage-activation curves for both ΔPASCap and E600R channels.

      The authors then address the role of the hidden O1 state in channel regulation by calmodulation. Stimulating calcium entry into oocytes with ionomycin and thapsigarging, assumed to enhance CaM-dependent modulation, resulted in preferential potentiation of the first component in ΔPASCap and E600R channels. This potentiation was attenuated by including an additional mutation that disfavors deeply closed states. Together, these results are interpreted as an indication that calcium-CaM preferentially stabilizes deeply closed states from which O1 can be readily accessed in mutant channels, thus favoring current activation. In WT channels lacking a conducting O1 state, CaM stabilizes deeply closed states and is therefore inhibitory. It is found that the potentiation of ΔPASCap and E600R by CaM is more strongly attenuated by mutations in the channel that are assumed to disrupt interaction with the C-terminal lobe of CaM than mutations assumed to affect interaction with the N-terminal lobe. These results are intriguing but difficult to interpret in mechanistic terms. The strong effect that calcium-CaM had on the occupancy of the O1 state in the mutants raises the possibility that O1 can be only observed in channels that are constitutively associated with CaM. To address this, a biochemical pull-down assay was carried out to establish that only a small fraction of channels are associated with CaM under baseline conditions. These CaM experiments are potentially very interesting and could have wide physiological relevance. However, the approach utilized to activate CaM is indirect and could result in additional nonspecific effects on the oocytes that could affect the results.

      Finally, a mathematical model is proposed consisting of two layers involving two activation steps for the voltage sensor, and one conformational change in the cytoplasmic gating ring - completion of both sets of conformational changes is required to access state O2, but accessing state O1 only requires completion of the first voltage-sensor activation step in the four subunits. The model qualitatively reproduces most major findings on the mutants. Although the model used is highly symmetric and appears simple, the mathematical form used for the rate constants in the model adds a layer of complexity to the model that makes mechanistic interpretations difficult. In addition, many transitions that from a mechanistic standpoint should not depend on voltage were assigned a voltage dependence in the model. These limitations diminish the overall usefulness of the model which is prominently presented in the manuscript. The most important mechanistic assumptions in the model are not addressed experimentally, such as the proposition that entry into O1 depends on the opening of the transmembrane pore gate, whereas entry into O2 involves gating ring transitions - it is unclear why O2 would require further gating ring transitions to conduct ions given that the gating ring can already support permeation by O1 without any additional conformational changes.

      In essence, we agree with the reviewer; we already have addressed these points in our revised article:

      Regarding the voltage dependence we write “the κ/λ transition could reasonably be expected to be voltage independent because we related it to ring reconfiguration, a process that should occur as a consequence of a prior VSD transition. We have made some attempts to treat this transition as voltage independent but state-specific with upper-layer bias for states on the right and lower-layer bias for states on the left. This is in principle possible, as can already be gleaned from the similar voltage ranges of the left-right transition (α/β) and the κL/λ transition. However, this approach leads to a much larger number of free, less well constrained kinetic parameters and drastically complicated the parameter search. ” As you can see, we also formulated a strategy to free the model of the potentially spurious voltage dependence and (in bold here) explained why we did not follow this route in this study. 

      Regarding the need for gating ring transitions after O1, we wrote, “Thus, the underlying gating events can be separated into two steps: The first gating step involves only the voltage sensor without engaging the ring and leads to a pre-open state, which is non-conducting in the WT but conducting in our mutants. The second gating event operates at higher depolarizations, involves a change in the ring, and leads to an open state both in WT and in the mutants. ” 

      We interpret your statements such that you expect the conducting state to remain available once O1 is reached. However, the experimental evidence speaks against that the pore availability remains regardless of the further gating steps beyond O1. The description of model construction is informative here: “... we could exclude many possible [sites at which O1 connects to closed states] because the attachment site must be sufficiently far away from the conventional open state [O2]. Otherwise, the transition from "O1 preferred" to "O2 preferred" via a few closed intermediate states is very gradual and never produces the biphasic GV curves [that we observed]. ” 

      In other words, voltage-dependent gating steps beyond the state that offers access to O1 appear to close the pore, after it was open. That might occur because only then (for states in which at least one voltage sensor exceeded the intermediate position) the ring is fixed in a particular state until all sensors completed activation. In the WT, closing the pore in deactivated states might rely on an interaction that is absent in the mutant because, at least in HERG: “the interaction between the PAS domain and the C-terminus is more stable in closed than in open KV11.1 (HERG) channels, and a single chain antibody binding to the interface between PAS domain and CNBHD can access its epitope in open but not in closed channels, strongly supporting a change in conformation of the ring during gating ”

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      In the present manuscript, Abdelaziz and colleagues interrogate the gating mechanisms of Kv10.1, an important voltage-gated K+ channel in cell cycle and cancer physiology. At the molecular level, Kv10.1 is regulated by voltage and Ca-CaM. Structures solved using CryoEM for Kv10.1 as well as other members of the KCNH family (Kv11 and Kv12) show channels that do not contain a structured S4-S5 linker imposing therefore a non-domain swapped architecture in the transmembrane region. However, the cytoplasmatic N- and C- terminal domains interact in a domain swapped manner forming a gating ring. The N-terminal domain (PAS domain) of one subunit is located close to the intracellular side of the voltage sensor domain and interacts with the C-terminal domain (CNBHD domain) of the neighbor subunit. Mutations in the intracellular domains has a profound effect in the channel gating. The complex network of interactions between the voltage-sensor and the intracellular domains makes the PAS domain a particularly interesting domain of the channel to study as responsible for the coupling between the voltage sensor domains and the intracellular gating ring.

      The coupling between the voltage-sensor domain and the gating ring is not fully understood and the authors aim to shed light into the details of this mechanism. In order to do that, they use well established techniques such as site-directed mutagenesis, electrophysiology, biochemistry and mathematical modeling. In the present work, the authors propose a two open state model that arises from functional experiments after introducing a deletion on the PAS domain (ΔPAS Cap) or a point mutation (E600R) in the CNBHD domain. The authors measure a bi-phasic G-V curve with these mutations and assign each phase as two different open states, one of them not visible on the WT and only unveiled after introducing the mutations.

      The hypothesis proposed by the authors could change the current paradigm in the current understanding for Kv10.1 and it is quite extraordinary; therefore, it requires extraordinary evidence to support it.

      STRENGTHS: The authors use adequate techniques such as electrophysiology and sitedirected mutagenesis to address the gating changes introduced by the molecular manipulations. They also use appropriate mathematical modeling to build a Markov model and identify the mechanism behind the gating changes.

      WEAKNESSES: The results presented by the authors do not fully support their conclusions since they could have alternative explanations. The authors base their primary hypothesis on the bi-phasic behavior of a calculated G-V curve that do not match the tail behavior, the experimental conditions used in the present manuscript introduce uncertainties, weakening their conclusions and complicating the interpretation of the results. Therefore, their experimental conditions need to be revisited. 

      We respectfully disagree. We think that your suggestions for alternative explanations are addressed in the current version of the article. We will rebut them once more below, but we feel the need to point out that our arguments are already laid out in the revised article.

      I have some concerns related to the following points:

      (1) Biphasic gating behavior

      The authors use the TEVC technique in oocytes extracted surgically from Xenopus Leavis frogs. The method is well established and is adequate to address ion channel behavior. The experiments are performed in chloride-based solutions which present a handicap when measuring outward rectifying currents at very depolarizing potentials due to the presence of calcium activated chloride channel expressed endogenously in the oocytes; these channels will open and rectify chloride intracellularly adding to the outward rectifying traces during the test pulse. The authors calculate their G-V curves from the test pulse steady-state current instead of using the tail currents. The conductance measurements are normally taken from the 'tail current' because tails are measured at a fix voltage hence maintaining the driving force constant. 

      We respectfully disagree. In contrast to other channels, like HERG, a common practice for Kv10 is not to use tail currents. It is long known that in this channel, tail currents and test-pulse steady-state currents can appear to be at odds because the channels deactivate extremely rapidly, at the border of temporal resolution of the measurements and with intricate waveforms. This complicates the estimation of the instantaneous tail current. Therefore, the outward current is commonly used to estimate conductance (Terlau et al., 1996; Schönherr et al., 1999; Schönherr et al., 2002; Whicher and MacKinnon, 2019), while the latter authors also use the extreme of the tail for some mutants.

      Due to their activation at very negative voltage, the reversal potential in our mutants can be measured directly; we are, therefore, more confident with this approach. Nevertheless, we have determined the initial tail current in some experiments. The behavior of these is very similar to the average that we present in Figure 1. The biphasic behavior is unequivocally present.

      Author response image 2.

      Calculating the conductance from the traces should not be a problem, however, in the present manuscript, the traces and the tail currents do not agree. 

      The referee’s observation is perfectly in line with the long-standing experience of several labs working with KV10: tail current amplitudes in KV10 appear to be out of proportion for the WT open state (O2). Importantly, this is due to the rapid closure, which is not present in O1. As a consequence, the initial amplitude of tail currents from O1 are easier to estimate correctly, and they are much more obvious in the graphs. Taken together, these differences between O1 and O2 explain the misconception the reviewer describes next.

      The tail traces shown in Fig1E do not show an increasing current amplitude in the voltage range from +50mV to +120mV, they seem to have reached a 'saturation state', suggesting that the traces from the test pulse contain an inward chloride current contamination. 

      As stated in the text and indicated in Author response image 3, the tail currents In Figure 1E increase in amplitude between +50 and +120 mV, as can be seen in the examples below from different experiments (+50 is presented in black, +120 in red). As stated above, the increase is not as evident as in traces from other mutants because the predominance of O2 also implies a much faster deactivation.

      Author response image 3. 

      We are aware that Ca2+-activated Cl- currents can represent a problem when interpreting electrophysiological data in oocytes. In fact, we show in Supplement 1 to Figure 8 that this can be the case during the Ca2+-CaM experiments, where the increase in Ca2+ would certainly augment Cl- contribution to the outward current. This is why we performed these experiments in Cl--free solutions. As we show in Figure 8, the biphasic behavior was also present in those experiments. 

      Importantly, Cl- free bath solutions would not correct contamination during the tail, since this would correspond to Cl- exiting the oocyte. Yet, if there would be contamination of the outward currents by Cl-, one would expect it to increase with larger depolarizations as the typical Ca2+activated Cl- current in oocytes does. As the reviewer states, this does not seem to be the case.

      In addition, this second component identified by the authors as a second open state appears after +50mV and seems to never saturate. The normalization to the maximum current level during the test pulse, exaggerates this second component on the calculated G-V curve. 

      We agree that this second component continues to increase; the reviewer brought this up in the first review, and we have already addressed this in our reply and in the discussion of the revised version: “This flicker block might also offer an explanation for a feature of the mutant channels, that is not explained in the current model version: the continued increase in current amplitude, hundreds of milliseconds into a strong depolarization (Supp. 4 to Fig. 9). If the relative stability of O2 and C2 continued to change throughout depolarization, such a current creep-up could be reproduced. However, this would require either the introduction of further layers of On ↔Cn states, or a non-Markovian modification of the model’s time evolution.” With non-Markovian, we mean a Langevin-type diffusive process. 

      It's worth noticing that the ΔPASCap mutant experiments on Fig 5 in Mes based solutions do not show that second component on the G-V.

      For the readers of this conversation, we would like to clarify that the reviewer likely refers to experiments shown in Fig. 5 of the initial submission but shown in Fig. 6 of the revised version (“Hyperpolarization promotes access to a large conductance, slowly activating open state.” Fig. 5 deals with single channels). We agree that these data look different, but this is because the voltage protocols are completely different (compare Fig. 6A (fixed test pulse, varied prepulse) and Fig. 2A (varied test pulse, fixed pre-pulse). Therefore, no biphasic behavior is expected. 

      Because these results are the foundation for their two open state hypotheses, I will strongly suggest the authors to repeat all their Chloride-based experiments in Mes-based solutions to eliminate the undesired chloride contribution to the mutants current and clarify the contribution of the mutations to the Kv10.1 gating.

      In summary, we respectfully disagree with all concerns raised in point (1). Our detailed arguments rebutting them are given above, but there is a more high-level concern about this entire exchange: the referee casts doubt on observations that are not new. Several labs have reported for a group of mutant KCNH channels: non-monotonic voltage dependence of activation (see, e.g., Fig. 6D in Zhao et al., 2017), multi-phasic tail currents (see e.g. Fig. 4A in Whicher and MacKinnon, 2019, in CHO cells where Cl- contamination is not a concern), and activation by high [Ca2+]i (Lörinczi et al., 2016). Our study replicates those observations and hypothesizes that the existence of an additional conducting state can alone explain all previously unexplained observations. We highlight the potency of this hypothesis with a Markov model that qualitatively reproduces all phenomena. We not only factually disagree with the individual points raised, but we also think that they don't touch on the core of our contribution

      (2) Two step gating mechanism.

      The authors interpret the results obtained with the ΔPASCap and the E600R as two step gating mechanisms containing two open states (O1 and O2) and assign them to the voltage sensor movement and gating ring rotation respectively. It is not clear, however how the authors assign the two open states.

      The results show how the first component is conserved amongst mutations; however, the second one is not. The authors attribute the second component, hence the second open state to the movement of the gating ring. This scenario seems unlikely since there is a clear voltagedependence of the second component that will suggest an implication of a voltage-sensing current.

      We do not suggest that the gating ring motion is not voltage dependent. We would like to point out that voltage dependence can be conveyed by voltage sensor coupling to the ring; this is the widely accepted theory of how the ring can be involved. Should the reviewer mean it in a narrow sense, that the model should be constructed such that all voltage-dependent steps occur before and independently of ring reconfiguration and that only then an additional step that reflects the (voltage-independent) reconfiguration solely, we would like to point the reviewer to the article, where we write: “the κ/λ transition could reasonably be expected to be voltage independent because we related it to ring reconfiguration, a process that should occur as a consequence of a prior VSD transition. We have made some attempts to treat this transition as voltage independent but state-specific with upper-layer bias for states on the right and lower-layer bias for states on the left. This is in principle possible, as can already be gleaned from the similar voltage ranges of the left-right transition (α/β) and the κL/λ transition. However, this approach leads to a much larger number of free, less well constrained kinetic parameters and drastically complicated the parameter search. ” As you can see, we also formulated a strategy to free the model from the potentially spurious voltage dependence and (in bold here) explained why we did not follow this route in this study. 

      The split channel experiment is interesting but needs more explanation. I assume the authors expressed the 2 parts of the split channel (1-341 and 342-end), however Tomczak et al showed in 2017 how the split presents a constitutively activated function with inward currents that are not visible here, this point needs clarification.

      As stated in the panel heading, the figure legend, and the main text, we did not use 1-341 and 342-end as done in Tomczak et al. Instead, “we compared the behavior of ∆2-10 and ∆210.L341Split,”. Evidently, the additional deletion (2-10) causes a shift in activation that explains the difference you point out. However, as we do not compare L341Split and ∆210.L341Split but ∆2-10 and ∆2-10.L341Split, our conclusion remains that “As predicted, compared to ∆2-10, ∆2-10.L341Split showed a significant reduction in the first component of the biphasic GV (Fig. 2C, D).” Remarkably, the behavior of the ∆3-9 L341Split described in Whicher and MacKinnon, 2019 (Figure 5) matches that of our ∆2-10 L341Split, which we think reinforces our case.

      Moreover, the authors assume that the mutations introduced uncover a new open state, however the traces presented for the mutations suggest that other explanations are possible. Other gating mechanisms like inactivation from the closed state, can be introduced by the mutations. The traces presented for ΔPASCap but specially E600R present clear 'hooked tails', a direct indicator of a populations of inactive channels during the test pulse that recover from inactivation upon repolarization (Tristani-Firouzi M, Sanguinetti MC. J Physiol. 1998). 

      There is a possibility that we are debating nomenclature here. In response to the suggestion that all our observations could be explained by inactivation, we attempted a disambiguation of terms in the reply and the article. As the argument is brought up again without reference to our clarification attempts, we will try to be more explicit here:

      If, starting from deeply deactivated states, an open state is reached first, and then, following further activation steps, closed states are reached, this might be termed “inactivation”. In such a reading, our model features many inactivated states. The shortest version of such a model is C-O-I. It is for instance used by Raman and Bean (2001; DOI: 10.1016/S00063495(01)76052-3) to explain NaV gating in Purkinje neurons. If “inactivation” is meant in the sense that a gating transition exists, which is orthogonal to an activation/deactivation axis, and that after this orthogonal transition, an open state cannot be reached anymore, then all of the upper floor in our model is inactivated with respect to the open state O1. Finally, the state C2 is an inactivated state to O2. In this view, “inactivation” explains the observed phenomena. 

      However, we must disagree if the referee means that a parsimonious explanation exists in which a single conducting state is the only source for all observed currents.   

      There is a high-level reason: we found a single assumption that explains three different phenomena, while the inactivation hypothesis with one conducting state cannot explain one of them (the increase of the first component under raised CaM). But there is also a low-level reason: the tails in Tristani-Firouzi and Sanguinetti 1998 are fundamentally different from what we report herein in that they lack a third component. Thus, those tails are consistent with recovery from inactivation through a single open state, while a three-component tail is not. In the framework of a Markov model, the time constants of transitions from and to a given state (say O2), cannot change unless the voltage changes. During the tail current, the voltage does not change, yet we observe: 

      i) a rapid decrease with a time constant of at most a few milliseconds (Fig 9 S2, 1-> 2),  ii) a slow increase in current, peaking after approximately 25 milliseconds and iii) a relaxation to zero current with a time constant of >50 ms. 

      According to the reviewer’s suggestion, these processes on three timescales should all be explained by depopulating and repopulating the same open state while all rates are constant. There might well be a complicated multi-level state diagram with a single open state with different variants, like (open and open inactivated) that could produce triphasic tails with these properties if the system had not reached a steady state distribution at the end of the test pulse. It cannot, however, achieve it from an equilibrated system, and certainly, it cannot at the same time produce “biphasic activation” and “activation by CaM”. 

      The results presented by the authors can be alternatively explained with a change in the equilibrium between the close to inactivated/recovery from inactivation to the open state. 

      Again, we disagree. The model construction explains in detail that the transition from the first to the second phase is not gradual. Shifting equilibria cannot reproduce this. We have extensively tested that idea and can exclude this possibility.

      Finally, the authors state that they do not detect "cumulative inactivation after repeated depolarization" but that is considering inactivation only from the open state and ignoring the possibility of the existence of close state inactivation or, that like in hERG, that the channel inactivates faster that what it activates (Smith PL, Yellen G. J Gen Physiol. 2002). 

      We respectfully disagree. We explicitly model an open state that inactivates faster (O2->C2) than it activates. Once more, this is stated in the revised article, which we point to for details. Again, this alternative mechanism does not have the potential to explain all three effects. As discussed above about the chloride contamination concerns, this inactivation hypothesis was mentioned in the first review round and, therefore, addressed in our reply and the revised article. We also explained that “inactivation” has no specific meaning in Markov models. In the absence of O1, all transitions towards the lower layer are effectively “inactivation from closed states”, because they make access to the only remaining open state less likely”. But this is semantics. What is relevant is that no network of states around a single open state can reproduce the three effets in a more parsimonious way than the assumption of the second open state does.

      (3) Single channel conductance.

      The single channels experiments are a great way to assess the different conductance of single channel openings, unfortunately the authors cannot measure accurately different conductances for the two proposed open states. The Markov Model built by the authors, disagrees with their interpretation of the experimental results assigning the exact same conductance to the two modeled open states. To interpret the mutant data, it is needed to add data with the WT for comparison and in presence of specific blockers. 

      We respectfully disagree. As previously shown, the conductance of the flickering wild-type open state is very difficult to resolve. Our recordings do not show that the two states have different single-channel conductances, and therefore the model assumes identical singlechannel conductance. 

      The important point is that the single-channel recordings clearly show two different gating modes associated with the voltage ranges in which we predict the two open states. One has a smaller macroscopic current due to rapid flickering (aka “inactivation”). These recordings are another proof of the existence of two open states because the two gating modes occur.  Wild-type data can be found in Bauer and Schwarz, (2001, doi:10.1007/s00232-001-0031-3) or Pardo et al., (1998, doi:10.1083/jcb.143.3.767) for comparison.

      We appreciate the effort editors and reviewers invested in assessing the revised manuscript. Yet, we think that the demanded revision of experimental conditions and quantification methods contradicts the commonly accepted practice for KV10 channels. Some of the reviewer comments are skeptical about the biphasic behavior, which is an established and replicated finding for many mutants and by many researchers. The alternative explanations for these disbelieved findings are either “semantics” or cannot quantitatively explain the measurements. Therefore, only the demand for more explanations and unprecedented resolution in singlechannel recordings remains. We share these sentiments.

      ———— The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      (1) The authors must show that the second open state is not just an artifact of endogenous activity but represents the activity of the same EAG channels. I suggest that the authors repeat these experiments in Mes-based solutions. 

      (2) Along the same lines, it is necessary to show that these currents can be blocked using known EAG channel blockers such as astemizole. Ultimately, it will be important to demonstrate using single-channel analysis that these do represent two distinct open states separated by a closed state. 

      We have addressed these concerns using several approaches. The most substantial change is the addition of single-channel recordings on ΔPASCap. In those experiments, we could provide evidence of the two types of events in the same patch, and the presence of an outward current at -60 mV, 50 mV below the equilibrium potential for chloride. The channels were never detected in uninjected oocytes, and Astemizole silenced the activity in patches containing multiple channels. These observations, together with the maintenance of the biphasic behavior that we interpret as evidence of the presence of O1 in methanesulfonate-based solutions, strongly suggest that both O1 and O2 obey the expression of KV10.1 mutants.

      (3) Currents should be measured by increasing the pulse lengths as needed in order to obtain the true steady-state G-V curves. 

      We agree that the endpoint of activation is ill-defined in the cases where a steady-state is not reached. This does indeed hamper quantitative statements about the relative amplitude of the two components. However, while the overall shape does change, its position (voltage dependence) would not be affected by this shortcoming. The data, therefore, supports the claim of the “existence of mutant-specific O1 and its equal voltage dependence across mutants.”

      (4) A more clear and thorough description should be provided for how the observations with the mutant channels apply to the behavior of WT channels. How exactly does state O1 relate to WT behavior, and how exactly do the parameters of the mathematical model differ between WT and mutants? How can this be interpreted at a structural level? What could be the structural mechanism through which ΔPASCap and E600R enable conduction through O1? It seems contradictory that O1 would be associated exclusively with voltage-sensor activation and not gating ring transitions, and yet the mutations that enable cation access through O1 localize at the gating ring - this needs to be better clarified. 

      We have undertaken a thorough rewriting of all sections to clarify the structural correlates that may explain the behavior of the mutants. In brief, we propose that when all four voltage sensors move towards the extracellular side, the intracellular ring maintains the permeation path closed until it rotates. If the ring is altered, this “lock” is incompetent, and permeation can be detected (page 34). By fixing the position of the ring, calmodulin would preclude permeation in the WT and promote the population of O1 in the mutants.

      (5) Rather than the t80% risetime, exponential fits should be performed to assess the kinetics of activation. 

      We agree that the assessment of kinetics by a t80% is not ideal. We originally refrained from exponential fits because they introduce other issues when used for processes that are not truly exponential (as is the case here). We had planned to perform exponential fits in this revised version, but because the activation process is not exponential, the time constants we could provide would not be accurate, and the result would remain qualitative as it is now. In the experiments where we did perform the fits (Fig. 3), the values obtained support the statement made. 

      (6) It is argued based on the G-V relations in Figure 2A that none of the mutations or deletions introduced have a major effect on state O1 properties, but rather affect state O2. However, the occupancy of state O2 is undetermined because activation curves do not reach saturation. It would be interesting to explore the fitting parameters on Fig.2B further to test whether the data on Fig 2A can indeed only be described by fits in which the parameters for O1 remain unchanged between constructs. 

      We agree that the absolute occupancy of O2 cannot be properly determined if a steady state is not reached. This is, however, a feature of the channel. During very long depolarizations in WT, the current visually appears to reach a plateau, but a closer look reveals that the current keeps increasing after very long depolarizations (up to 10 seconds; see, e.g., Fig. 1B in Garg et al., 2013, Mol Pharmacol 83, 805-813. DOI: 10.1124/mol.112.084384). Interestingly, although the model presented here does not account for this behavior, we propose changes in the model that could. “If the relative stability of O2 and C2 continued to change throughout the depolarization such a current creep-up could be reproduced. However, this would require either the introduction of further layers of On↔Cn states or a non-Markovian modification of the model’s evolution.” Page 34.

      (7) The authors interpret the results obtained with the mutants DPASCAP and E600R -tested before by Lorinczi et al. 2016, to disrupt the interactions between the PASCap and cNBHD domains- as a two-step gating mechanism with two open states. All the results obtained with the E600R mutant and DPASCap could also be explained by inactivation/recovery from inactivation behavior and a change in the equilibrium between the closed states closed/inactivated states and open states. Moreover, the small tails between +90 to +120 mV suggest channels accumulate in an inactive state (Fig 1E). It is not convincing that the two open-state model is the mechanism underlying the mutant's behavior.  

      We respectfully disagree with the notion that a single open state can provide a plausible explanation for "All the results obtained with the E600R mutant and DPASCap". We think that our new single channel results settle the question, but even without this direct evidence, a quantitative assessment of the triphasic tail currents all but excludes the possibility of a single open state. We agree that it is, in principle, possible to obtain some form of a multiphasic tail with a single open state using the scheme suggested in this comment: at the end of the test pulse, a large fraction of the channels must be accumulated in inactive states, and a few are in the open state. The hyperpolarization to -100mV then induces a rapid depopulation of the open state, followed by slower replenishments from the inactive state. Exactly this process occurs in our model, when C2 empties through O2 (Supp. 5 to Fig 9, E600R model variant). However, this alone is highly unlikely to quantitatively explain the measured tail currents, because of the drastically different time scales of the initial current decay (submillisecond to at most a few milliseconds lifetime) and the much slower transient increase in current (several tens of milliseconds) and the final decay with time constants of >100 ms (see for instance data in Fig. 1 E for E600R +50 to +120mV test pulse). To sustain the substantial magnitude of slowly decaying current by slow replenishment of an open state with a lifetime of 1 ms requires vast amounts of inactivated channels. A rough estimation based on the current integral of the initial decay and the current integral of the slowly decaying current suggests that at the end of the test pulse, the ratio inactivated/open channels would have to be 500 to 1500 for this mechanism to quantitatively explain the observed tail currents. To put this in perspective: This would suggest that without inactivation all the expressed channels in an oocyte would provide 6 mA current during the +100 mV test pulse. While theoretically possible, we consider this a less likely explanation than a second open state.

      (8) Different models should be evaluated to establish whether the results in Figure 4 can also be explained by a model in which states O1 and O2 have the same conductance. It would be desirable if the conductance of both states were experimentally determined - noise analysis could be applied to estimate the conductance of both states. 

      In the modified model, O1 and O2 have the same single-channel conductance. The small conductance combined with the fast flickering did not allow an accurate determination, but we can state that there is no evidence that the single-channel conductance of the states is different.

      (9) Although not included, it looks like the model predicts some "conventional inactivation" This can be appreciated in Fig 8, and in the traces at -60mV. Interestingly, the traces obtained in the absence of Cl- also undergo slow inactivation, or 'conventional inactivation' as referred to by the authors. Please revise the following statement "Conventional inactivation was never detected in any mutants after repeated or prolonged depolarization. In the absence of inactivation, the pre-pulse dependent current increase at +40 mV could be related to changes in the relative occupancy of the open states". 

      We have carefully edited the manuscript to address this concern. The use of the term inactivation admittedly represents a challenge. We agree that the state that results from the flickering block (C2) could be defined as “inactivated” because it is preceded by an open state. Yet, in that case, the intermediate states that the channel travels between O1 and O2 would also be sensu stricto “inactivated”, but only in the mutants. We have made this clear in page 17.

      Recommendations for improving the writing and presentation.

      (1) Methods section: Please state the reversal potential calculated for the solution used. It looks like the authors used an Instantaneous I-V curve method to calculate the reversal potential; if that's correct, please show the I-V and the traces together with the protocol used. 

      We have provided the calculated reversal potentials for excised patches. We cannot predict the reversal potential in whole oocytes because we have no control over the intracellular solution. The reversal potential was determined in the mutants through the current at the end of the stimulus because the mutants produced measurable inward currents. The differences in reversal potential were not significant among mutants.

      Pulse protocols have been added to the figures.

      (2) Figure 1 suggestion: Combine the two panels in panel D and move the F panel up so the figure gets aligned in the lower end.

      Thank you, this has been done.

      (3) Please clarify the rationale for using the E600R-specific mutant. I assume it is based on the Lorinzci et al. 2016 effect and how this is similar to the DPASCap phenotype, or is it due to the impact of this mutation in the interactions between the N-term and the cNBHD? 

      We have explained the rationale for the use of E600R explicitly on page 6.

      (4) Fig S1A is not present in the current version of the manuscript. Include a cartoon as well as a structural figure clearly depicting the perturbations introduced by E600R, ΔPASCap, and the other deletions that are tested. Additional structural information supporting the discussion would also be helpful to establish clearer mechanistic links between the experimental observations described here and the observed conformational changes between states in Kv10 channel structures. 

      We have corrected this omission, thank you for pointing it out.

      (5) It would be informative to see the traces corresponding to the I-V shown in Fig 7 A and B at the same indicated time points (0, 60, 150, and 300s). Did the authors monitor the Ca2+ signal rise after the I&T treatment to see if it coincides with the peak in the 60s? 

      In Figure 7 (now Figure 8) we used voltage ramps instead of discrete I-V protocols because of the long time required for recording the latter. This is stated on page 19. Ca2+ was monitored through Cl- current after ionomycin/thapsigargin. The duration of the Ca2+ increase was reproducible among oocytes and in good agreement with the changes observed in the biphasic behavior of the mutants (Supplement 1 to Figure 8).

      (6) Fig 4. Please state in the legend what the different color traces correspond to in E600R and DPASCap. Is there a reason to change the interpulse on DPASCap to -20mV and not allow this mutant to close? Please state. How do the authors decide the 10 ms interval for the experiments in Fig 2? 

      Thank you for pointing this out, we have added the description. We have explained why we use a different protocol for ΔPASCap and the reason for using 10 ms interval (we believe the referee means Figure 4) on page 12.  

      (7) Fig. 5. Since the pre-pulse is supposed to be 5s, but the time scale doesn't correspond with a pre-pulse of 5 s before the test pulse to +40mV. Has the pre-pulse been trimmed for representation purposes? If so, please state. 

      The pre-pulse was 5s, but as the reviewer correctly supposed, the trace is trimmed to keep the +40 mV stimulus visible. This has now been clearly stated in the legend.

      (8) The mutant L322H is located within the S4 helix according to the Kv10.1 structure (PDB 5K7L), not in the 'S3-S4 linker'; please correct. 

      This has been done, thank you.

      The introduction of this mutant should also shift the voltage dependence toward more hyperpolarizing potentials (around 30mV, according to Schoenherr et al. 1999). It looks like that shift is present within the first component of the G-V. Still, since the max amplitude from the second component could be contaminated by endogenous Cl- currents, this effect is minimized. Repeating these experiments in the no Cl- solutions will help clarify this point and see the effect of the DPASCap and E600R in the background of a mutation that accelerates the transitions between the closed states (see Major comment 1). Did the authors record L322H alone for control purposes? 

      We have decided not to measure L322H alone or repeat the measurements in Cl--free solutions because we do not see a way to use the quantitative assessment of the voltage dependence of L322H and the L322H-variants of the eag domain mutants. Like in our answer to main point 3, we base our arguments not on the precise voltage dependence of the second component but on the shape of the G-V curves instead, specifically the consistent appearance of the first component and the local conductance minimum between the first and second components. After the introduction of L322H the first component is essentially absent.

      We think that the measurements of the L322H mutants cannot be interpreted as a hyperpolarizing shift in the first component. The peak of the first conductance component occurs around -20 mV in ΔPASCap and E600R (Fig. 7 C, D). After a -30mV shift, in L322H+DPASCap and L322H+E600R, this first peak would still be detected within the voltage range in our experiments, but it is not. A contamination of the second component would have little impact on this observation, which is why we refrain from the suggested measurements.  

      (9) The authors differentiate between an O1 vs. O2 state with different conductances, and maybe I missed it, but there's no quantitative distinction between the components; how are they different?

      Please see the response to the main comments 1 and 2. This has been addressed in singlechannel recordings.

      (10) Please state the voltage protocols, holding voltages, and the solutions (K+ concentration and Cl-presence/absence) used for the experiments presented in the legends on the figures. Hence, it's easier to interpret the experiments presented. 

      Thank you, this has been done.

      (11) The authors state on page 7 that "with further depolarizations, the conductance initially declined to rise again in response to strong depolarizations. This finding matches the changes in amplitude of the tail currents, which, therefore, probably reflect a true change in conductance" However, the tails in the strong voltage range (+50 to +120 mV) for the E600R mutant argue against this result. Please review.

      The increase in the amplitude of the tail current is also present in E600R, but the relative increase is smaller. We have decided against rescaling these traces because the Figure is already rather complex. We indicated this fact with a smaller arrow and clarified it in the text (page 8).

      (12) The authors mention that the threshold of activation for the WT is around -20mV; however, the foot of the G-V is more around -30 or -40mV. Please revise. 

      Thank you. We have done this. 

      (13) The authors state on page 9 that the 'second component occurs at progressively more depolarized potentials for increasingly larger N-terminal deletions" However E600R mutant that conserves the N-terminal intact has a shift as pronounced as the DPASCap and larger than the D2-10. How do the authors interpret this result? 

      We have corrected this statement in page 10 : “…the second component occurs at progressively more depolarized potentials for increasingly larger N-terminal deletions and when the structure of the ring is altered through disruption of the interaction between N- and C-termini (E600R)”.

      (14) The equation defined to fit the G-Vs, can also be used to describe the WT currents. If the O1 is conserved and present in the WT, this equation should also fit the WT data properly. The 1-W component shown could also be interpreted as an inactivating component that, in the WT, shifts the voltage-dependence of activation towards depolarizing potentials and is not visible. Still, the mutants do show it as if the transition from closed-inactivated states is controlled by interactions in the gating ring, and disturbing them does affect the transitions to the open state. 

      Out of the two open states in the mutant, O2 is the one that shares properties with the WT (e.g. it is inaccessible during Ca2+-CaM binding) while O1 is the open state with the voltage dependence that is conserved across the mutants. We, therefore, believe that this question is based on a mix-up of the two open states. We appreciate the core of the question: does the pattern in the mutants’ G-V curves find a continuation in the WT channel? 

      Firstly, the component that is conserved among mutants does not lead to current in the WT because the corresponding open state (O1) is not observed in WT. However, the gating event represented by this component should also occur in WT and –given its apparent insensitivity to eag domain mutations–  this gating step should occur in WT with the same voltage dependence as in all the mutants. This means that this first component sets a hard boundary for the most hyperpolarized G-V curve we can expect in the WT, based on our mutant measurements. Secondly, the second component shows a regular progression across mutants: The more intact the eag domain is, the more hyperpolarized the Vhalf values of transition term (1-W) and O2 activation. In Δ2-10, the transition term already almost coincides with O1 activation (estimated Vhalf values of -33.57 and -33.47 mV). A further shift of (1-W) in the WT is implausible because, if O1 activation is coupled to the earliest VSD displacement, the transition should not occur before O1 activation. Still, the second component might shift to more hyperpolarized values in the WT, depending on the impact of amino acids 2 to 10 on the second VSD transition.

      In summary, in WT the G-V should not be more hyperpolarized than the first component of the mutants, and the (1-W)-component probably corresponds to the Δ2-10 (1-W)-component. In WT the second component should be no more depolarized than the second component of Δ2-10. The WT G-V (Fig.1B) meets all these predictions derived from the pattern in the mutant GVs: When we use Eq. 4 to fit the WT G-V with A1=0 (O1 is not present in WT) and the parameters of the transition term (1-W)  fixed to the values attained in Δ2-10, we obtain a fit for the O2 component with Vhalf\=+21mV. This value nicely falls into the succession of Vhalf values for Δeag, ΔPASCap, and Δ2-10 (+103mV,+80mV,+52mV) and, at the same time, it is not more hyperpolarized than the conserved first component (Vhalf -34mV). Our measurements therefore support that the O2 component in the mutants corresponds to the single open state in the WT. 

      (15) Page 15, the authors state that 'The changes in amplitude and kinetics in response to rising intracellular Ca2+ support our hypothesis that Ca-CaM stabilized O1, possibly by driving the channels to deep closed states (Fig 5 and 6)' (pg 15). This statement seems contradictory; I can't quite follow the rationale since Ca2+ potentiates the current (Fig 7), and the addition of the L322H mutant in Fig 7 makes the shift of the first component to negative potentials visible.

      Please check the rationale for this section. 

      We have explained this more explicitly in the discussion (page 32). “Because access to O1 occurs from deep closed states, this could be explained by an increased occupancy of such deactivated states in response to CaM binding. This appears to be the case since CaM induces a biphasic behavior in the mutant channels that show reduced access to deep closed states; thus, L322H mutants behave like the parental variants in the presence of Ca2+-CaM. This implies a mechanistic explanation for the effect of Ca2+-CaM on WT since favoring entry into deep closed states would result in a decrease in current amplitude in the absence of (a permeable) O1”.

      Also, Figs 5 and 6 seem miscited here. 

      Thank you, we have corrected this.

      (16) For Figure 5, it would be helpful if each of the current traces corresponding to a particular voltage had a different color. That way, it will be easier to see how the initial holding voltage modulates current. 

      We have considered this suggestion, and we agree that it would make it easier to follow. Yet, since we have identified the mutants with different colors, it would be inconsistent if we used another color palette for this Figure. Supplement 3 to Figure 9 shows the differences in a clearer way.

      (17) Add zero-current levels to all current traces.

      We have done this.

      (18) The mathematical model should be described better. Particularly, the states from which O1 can be accessed should be described more clearly, as well as whether the model considers any direct connectivity between states O1 and O2. The origin of the voltage-dependence for transitions that do not involve voltage-sensor movements should be discussed. Also, it separation of kappa into kappa-l and kappa-r should be described. 

      We have extensively rewritten the description of the mathematical model to address these concerns.

      (19) Page 4, "reveals a pre-open state in which the transmembrane regions of the channel are compatible with ion permeation, but is still a nonconducting state". Also, page 27, "renders a hydrophobic constriction wider than 8 Å, enough to allow K+ flow, but still corresponds to a non-conducting state". These sentences are confusing - how can the regions be compatible with ion permeation, and still not be conducting? Is cation conductance precluded by a change in the filter, or elsewhere? How is it established that it represents a non-conducting state? 

      We have rephrased to clarify this apparent inconsistence. Page 4: “(…) in which the transmembrane regions of the channel are compatible with ion permeation (the permeation path is dilated, like in open states) but the intracellular gate is still in the same conformation as in closed states (Zhang et al., 2023).” Page 31: “The presence of an intact intracellular ring would preclude ionic flow in the WT, and its alteration would explain the permeability of this state in the mutants.”

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Weaknesses:  

      (1) The heatmaps (for example, Figure 3A, B) are challenging to read and interpret due to their size. Is there a way to alter the visualization to improve interpretability? Perhaps coloring the heatmap by general anatomical region could help? We feel that these heatmaps are critical to the utility of the registration strategy, and hence, clear visualization is necessary. 

      We thank the reviewers for this point on aesthetic improvement, and we agree that clearer visualization of our correlation heatmaps is important. To address this point, we have incorporated the capability of grouping “child” subregions in anatomical order by their more general “parent” region into the package function, plot_correlation_heatmaps(). Parent regions will be can now be plotted as smaller sub-facets in the heatmaps. We have also rearranged our figures to fit enlarged heatmaps in Figures 3-5, and Supplementary Figure 10 for easier visualization. 

      (2) Additional context in the Introduction on the use of immediate early genes to label ensembles of neurons that are specifically activated during the various behavioral manipulations would enable the manuscript and methodology to be better appreciated by a broad audience. 

      We thank the reviewers for this suggestion and have revised the first part of our Introduction to reflect the broader use and appeal of immediate early genes (IEGs) for studying neural changes underlying behavior.

      (3) The authors mention that their segmentation strategies are optimized for the particular staining pattern exhibited by each reporter and demonstrate that the manually annotated cell counts match the automated analysis. They mention that alternative strategies are compatible, but don't show this data. 

      We thank the reviewers for this comment. We also appreciate that integration with alternative strategies is a major point of interest to readers, given that others may be interested in compatibility with our analysis and software package, rather than completely revising their own pre-existing pipelines. 

      Generally, we have validated the ability to import datasets generated from completely different workflows for segmentation and registration. We have since released documentation on our package website with step-by-step instructions on how to do so (https://mjin1812.github.io/SMARTTR/articles/Part5.ImportingExternalDatasets). We believe this tutorial is a major entry point to taking advantage of our analysis package, without adopting our entire workflow.

      This specific point on segmentation refers to the import_segmentation_custom()function in the package. As there is currently not a standard cell segmentation export format adopted by the field, this function still requires some data wrangling into an import format saved as a .txt file. However, we chose not to visually demonstrate this capability in the paper for a few reasons.  

      i) A figure showing the broad testing of many different segmentation algorithms, (e.g., Cellpose, Vaa3d, Trainable Weka Segmentation) would better demonstrate the efficacy of segmentation of these alternative approaches, which have already been well-documented. However, demonstrating importation compatibility is more of a demonstration of API interface, which is better shown in website documentation and tutorial notebooks.

      ii) Additionally, showing importation with one well-established segmentation approach is still a demonstration of a single use case. There would be a major burden-of-proof in establishing importation compatibility with all potential alternative platforms, their specific export formats, which may be slightly different depending on post-processing choices, and the needs of the experimenters (e.g., exporting one versus many channels, having different naming conventions, having different export formats). For example, output from Cellpose can take the form of a NumPy file (_seg.npy file), a .png, or Native ImageJ ROI archive output, and users can have chosen up to four channels. Until the field adopts a standardized file format, one flexible enough to account for all the variables of experimental interest, we currently believe it is more efficient to advise external groups on how to transform their specific data to be compatible with our generic import function.  

      (4) The authors provided highly detailed information for their segmentation strategy, but the same level of detail was not provided for the registration algorithms. Additional details would help users achieve optimal alignment.

      We apologize for this lack of detail. The registration strategy depends upon the WholeBrain (Fürth et al., 2018) package for registration to the Allen Mouse Common Coordinate Framework. While this strategy has been published and documented elsewhere, we have substantially revised our methods section on the registration process to better incorporate details of this approach.

      (5) The authors illustrate registration to the Allen atlas. Can they comment on whether the algorithm is compatible with other atlases or with alternative sectioning planes (horizontal/sagittal)? 

      Since the current registration workflow integrates WholeBrain (Fürth et al., 2018), any limitations of WholeBrain apply to our approach, which means limited support for registering non-coronal sectioning planes and reliance on the Allen Mouse Atlas (Dong, 2008). However, network analysis and plotting functions are currently compatible with the Allen Mouse Brain Atlas and the Kim Unified Mouse Brain Atlas version (2019) (Chon et al., 2019). Therefore, current limitations in registration do not preclude the usefulness of the SMARTTR software in generating valuable insights from network analysis of externally imported datasets. 

      There are a number of alternative workflows, such as the QUINT workflow (Yates et al., 2019), that support multiple different mouse atlases, and registration of arbitrarily sectioned angles. We have plans to support and a facilitate an entry point for this workflow in a future iteration of SMARTTR, but believe it is of benefit to the wider community to release and support SMARTTR in its current state.

      (6) Supplemental Figures S10-13 do not have a legend panel to define the bar graphs. 

      We apologize for this omission and have fixed our legends in our resubmission. Our supplement figure orders have changed and the corresponding figures are now Supplemental Figures S11-14.

      (7) When images in a z-stack were collapsed, was this a max intensity projection or average? Assuming this question is in regards to our manual cell counting validation approach, the zstacks were collapsed as a maximum intensity projection.  

      Reviewer #2 (Public review): 

      Weaknesses: 

      (1) While I was able to install the SMARTR package, after trying for the better part of one hour, I could not install the "mjin1812/wholebrain" R package as instructed in OSF. I also could not find a function to load an example dataset to easily test SMARTR. So, unfortunately, I was unable to test out any of the packages for myself. Along with the currently broken "tractatus/wholebrain" package, this is a good example of why I would strongly encourage the authors to publish SMARTR on either Bioconductor or CRAN in the future. The high standards set by Bioc/CRAN will ensure that SMARTR is able to be easily installed and used across major operating systems for the long term. 

      We greatly thank the reviewer for pointing out this weakness; long-term maintenance of this package is certainly a mutual goal. Loading an .RDATA file is accomplished by either doubleclicking directly on the file in a directory window, after specifying this file type should be opened in RStudio or by using the load() function, (e.g., load("directory/example.RData")). We have now explicitly outlined these directions in the online documentation. 

      Moreover, we have recently submitted our package to CRAN and are currently working on revisions following comments. This has required a package rebranding to “SMARTTR”, as there were naming conflicts with a previously archived repository on CRAN. Currently, SMARTTR is not dependent on the WholeBrain package, which remains optional for the registration portion of our workflow. Ultimately, this independence will allow us to maintain the analysis and visualization portion of the package independently.

      In the meantime, we have fully revised our installation instructions (https://mjin1812.github.io/SMARTTR/articles/SMARTTR). SMARTTR is now downloadable from a CRAN-like repository as a bundled .tar.gz file, which should ease the burden of installation significantly. Installation has been verified on a number of different versions of R on different platforms. Again, we hope these changes are sufficient and improve the process of installation. 

      (2) The package is quite large (several thousand lines include comments and space). While impressive, this does inherently make the package more difficult to maintain - and the authors currently have not included any unit tests. The authors should add unit tests to cover a large percentage of the package to ensure code stability. 

      We have added unit testing to improve the reliability of our package. Unit tests now cover over 71% of our source code base and are available for evaluation on our github website (https://github.com/mjin1812/SMARTTR). We focused on coverage of the most front-facing functions. We appreciate this feedback, which has ultimately enhanced the longevity of our software.

      (3) Why do the authors choose to perform image segmentation outside of the SMARTTR package using ImageJ macros? Leading segmentation algorithms such as CellPose and StarMap have well-documented APIs that would be easy to wrap in R. They would likely be faster as well. As noted in the discussion, making SMARTTR a one-stop shop for multi-ensemble analyses would be more appealing to a user. 

      We appreciate this feedback. We believe parts of our response to Reviewer 1, Comment 3, are relevant to this point. Interfaces for CellPose and ClusterMap (which processes in situ transcriptomic approaches, like STARmap) are both in python, and currently there are ways to call python from within R (https://rstudio.github.io/reticulate/index.html). We will certainly explore incorporating these APIs from R. However, we would anticipate this capability is more similar to “translation” between programming languages, but would not currently preclude users from the issue of needing some familiarity with the capabilities of these python packages, and thus with python syntax.

      (4) Given the small number of observations for correlation analyses (n=6 per group), Pearson correlations would be highly susceptible to outliers. The authors chose to deal with potential outliers by dropping any subject per region that was> 2 SDs from the group mean. Another way to get at this would be using Spearman correlation. How do these analyses change if you use Spearman correlation instead of Pearson? It would be a valuable addition for the author to include Spearman correlations as an option in SMARTTR. 

      We thank reviewers for this suggestion and we have updated our code base to include the possibility for using Spearman’s correlation coefficient as opposed to Pearson’s correlation coefficient for heatmaps in the get_correlations() function. Users can now use the `method` parameter, set to either “pearson” or “spearman” and results will propagate throughout the rest of the analysis using these results.

      Below, in Author response image 1 we show a visual comparison of the correlation heat maps for active eYFP<sup>+</sup> ensembles in the CT and IS groups using both Pearson and Spearman correlations. We see a strongly qualitative similarity between the heat maps. Of course, since the statistical assumptions underlying the relationship between variables using Pearson correlation (linear) vs Spearman correlation (monotonic) are different, users should take this into account when interpreting results using different approaches.

      Author response image 1.

      Pearson and Spearmen regional correlations of eYFP+ ensembles activity in the CT and IS groups.

      (5) I see the authors have incorporated the ability to adjust p-values in many of the analysis functions (and recommend the BH procedure) but did not use adjusted p-values for any of the analyses in the manuscript. Why is this? This is particularly relevant for the differential correlation analyses between groups (Figures 3P and 4P). Based on the un-adjusted pvalues, I assume few if any data points will still be significant after adjusting. While it's logical to highlight the regional correlations that strongly change between groups, the authors should caution which correlations are "significant" without adjusting for multiple comparisons. As this package now makes this analysis easily usable for all researchers, the authors should also provide better explanations for when and why to use adjusted p-values in the online documentation for new users. 

      We appreciate the feedback note that our dataset is presented as a more demonstrative and exploratory resource for readers and, as such, we accept a high tolerance for false positives, while decreasing risk of missing possible interesting findings. As noted by Reviewer #2, it is still “logical to highlight the regional correlations that strongly change between groups.” We have clarified in our methods that we chose to present uncorrected p-values when speaking of significance. 

      We have also removed any previous recommendations for preferred methods for multiple comparisons adjustment in our function documentations, as some previous documentation was outdated. Moreover, the standard multiple comparisons adjustment approaches assume complete independence between tests, whereas this assumption is violated in our differential correlational analysis (i.e., a region with one significantly altered connection is more likely than another to have another significantly altered connection).

      Ultimately, the decision to correct for multiple comparisons with standard FDR, and choice of significance threshold, should still be informed by standard statistical theory and user-defined tolerance for inclusion of false-positives and missing of false-negatives. This will be influenced by factors, such as the nature and purpose of the study, and quality of the dataset.  

      (6) The package was developed in R3.6.3. This is several years and one major version behind the current R version (4.4.3). Have the authors tested if this package runs on modern R versions? If not, this could be a significant hurdle for potential users. 

      We thank reviewers for pointing out concerns regarding versioning. We have since updated our installation approach for SMARTTR, which is compatible with versions of R >= 3.6 and has been tested on Mac ARM-based (Apple silicon) architecture (R v4.4.2), and Windows 10 (R v3.6.3, v4.5.0 [devel]). 

      The recommendation for users to install R 3.6.3 is primarily for those interested in using our full workflow, which requires installation of the WholeBrain package, which is currently a suggested package. We anticipate updating and supporting the visualization and network analysis capabilities, whilst maintaining previous versioning for the full workflow presented in this paper.  

      (7) In the methods section: "Networks were constructed using igraph and tidygraph packages." - As this is a core functionality of the package, it would be informative to specify the exact package versions, functions, and parameters for network construction. 

      We thank reviewers for pointing out the necessity for these details for code reproducibility. We have since clarified our language in the manuscript on the exact functions we use in our analysis and package versions, which we also fully document in our online tutorial. Additionally. We have printed our package development and analysis environment online at https://mjin1812.github.io/SMARTTR/articles/Part7.Development.

      (8) On page 11, "Next, we examined the cross-correlations in IEG expression across brain regions, as strong co-activation or opposing activation can signify functional connectivity between two regions" - cross-correlation is a specific analysis in signal processing. To avoid confusion, the authors should simply change this to "correlations". 

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out this potentially confusing phrasing. We have changed all instances of “cross-correlation” to “correlation”.

      (9) Panels Q-V are missing in Figure 5 caption. 

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out this oversight. We have now fixed this in our revision.

      References

      Chon, U., Vanselow, D. J., Cheng, K. C., & Kim, Y. (2019). Enhanced and unified anatomical labeling for a common mouse brain atlas. Nature Communications, 10(1), 5067. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-019-13057-w

      Dong, H. W. (2008). The Allen reference atlas: A digital color brain atlas of the C57Bl/6J male mouse (pp. ix, 366). John Wiley & Sons Inc.

      Fürth, D., Vaissière, T., Tzortzi, O., Xuan, Y., Märtin, A., Lazaridis, I., Spigolon, G., Fisone, G., Tomer, R., Deisseroth, K., Carlén, M., Miller, C. A., Rumbaugh, G., & Meletis, K. (2018). An interactive framework for whole-brain maps at cellular resolution. Nature Neuroscience, 21(1), 139–149. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41593-017-0027-7

      Yates, S. C., Groeneboom, N. E., Coello, C., Lichtenthaler, S. F., Kuhn, P.-H., Demuth, H.-U., Hartlage-Rübsamen, M., Roßner, S., Leergaard, T., Kreshuk, A., Puchades, M. A., & Bjaalie, J. G. (2019). QUINT: Workflow for Quantification and Spatial Analysis of Features in Histological Images From Rodent Brain. Frontiers in Neuroinformatics, 13. https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fninf.2019.00075

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This important work by Park et al. introduces an open-top two-photon light sheet microscopy (OT-TP-LSM) for lesser invasive evaluation of intraoperative 3D pathology. The authors provide convincing evidence for the effectiveness of this technique in investigating various human cancer cells. The paper needs some minor corrections and has the potential to be of broad interest to biologists and, specifically, pathologists utilizing 3D optical microscopy.

      We would like to thank the editor for the positive general comment. We revised the manuscript by addressing the reviewers' comments.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer1

      Summary:

      A2. This manuscript presents the development of a new microscope method termed "open-top two-photon light sheet microscopy (OT-TP-LSM)". While the key aspects of the new approach (open-top LSM and Two-photon microscopy) have been demonstrated separately, this is the first system of integrating the two. The integration provides better imaging depth than a single-photon excitation OT-LSM.

      Strengths:

      The use of liquid prism to minimize the aberration induced by index mismatching is interesting and potentially helpful to other researchers in the field.

      • The use of propidium iodide (PI) provided a deeper imaging depth.

      Weaknesses:

      Details are lacking on imaging time, data size, the processing time to generate large-area en face images, and inference time to generate pseudo H&E images. This makes it difficult to assess how applicable the new microscope approach might be in various pathology applications.

      B2. We would like to thank the reviewer for the critical and positive comments. We agree with the reviewer that detailed information such as processing time is missing.

      The imaging time and data size were estimated per 1cm2 area and they were 7 min and 318 GB (= (7 × 60) s × 400 fps × (1850 × 512 × 2) byte) for each channel, respectively. The time for processing en-face images was relatively long by taking ~1.7 s Gb−1 after loading the image dataset at ~6.8 s Gb−1 in the current setting and needs to be shortened for intraoperative application. The time for converting OT-TP-LSM images of 512 x 512 pixels into virtual H&E staining images was 160 ms. This study was to address the current limitation of 3D pathology such as imaging depth and to develop the image processing to generate virtual H&E images. Further development such as speeding up the image processing would be needed. We added missing information and included some discussion on limitations of the new system and further development for intraoperative applications.

      C1-1. Revised manuscript, Discussion, pages 14-15 and lines 320-328

      Although OT-TP-LSM enabled high-speed 3D imaging, the post-processing time of the OT-TP-LSM image datasets was relatively long due to the large data size, sequential processing of dual channel images, and manual stitching. The long post-processing time needs to be resolved for intraoperative applications. To speed up processing, these processing steps can be performed using field-programmable gate array (FPGA)-based data acquisition with graphics processing unit (GPU)-based computing. The processing time can be further reduced by coding the algorithm in a C++-based environment. Furthermore, ImageJ-based software such as the Bigstitcher plugin can be used for automatic 3D image processing [44].

      C1-2. Revised manuscript, Materials and methods, Image acquisition and post-processing, page 17 and lines 390-398

      Image acquisition and post-processing

      Raw image datasets from dual sCMOS cameras were acquired and processed on a workstation with 128 Gb RAM and a 2 TB SSD drive. The imaging time and data size per 1cm2 area with 400 fps was 7 min and 318 GB (= (7 × 60) s × 400 fps × (1850 × 512 × 2) byte) for each channel, respectively. The raw image strip was sheared at 45° with respect to the sample surface, and a custom image processing algorithm was used to transform the image data in the XYZ coordinate. The processing for en-face image was conducted in MATLAB and took ~1.7 s Gb−1 after loading the image dataset at ~6.8 s Gb−1 in the current laboratory setting. Mosaic images were generated by joining the image strips manually.

      C1-3. Revised manuscript, Materials and methods, Virtual H&E staining of OT-TP-LSM via deep learning network, page 18 and lines 414-418

      The CycleGAN training and testing were performed using a Nvidia GeForce RTX 3090 with 24 GB RAM. The network was implemented using Python version 3.8.0 on a desktop computer with a Core i7-12700K CPU@3.61 GHz and 64 GB RAM, running Anaconda (version 22.9.0). The inference time for converting OT-TP-LSM patch image into virtual H&E patch image was measured as 160 ms.

      Reviewer 2

      Summary:

      A2. In this manuscript, the authors developed an open-top two-photon light sheet microscopy (OT-TP-LSM) that enables high-throughput and high-depth investigation of 3D cell structures. The data presented here shows that OT-T-LSM could be a complementary technique to traditional imaging workflows of human cancer cells.

      Strengths:

      High-speed and high-depth imaging of human cells in an open-top configuration is the main strength of the presented study. An extended depth of field of 180 µm in 0.9 µm thickness was achieved together with an acquisition of 0.24 mm2/s. This was confirmed by 3D visualization of human cancer cells in the skin, pancreas, and prostate.

      Weaknesses:

      The complementary aspect of the presented technique in human pathological samples is not convincingly presented. The traditional hematoxylin and eosin (H&E) staining is a well-established and widely used technique to detect human cancer cells. What would be the benefit of 3D cell visualization in an OT-TP-LSM microscope for cancer detection in addition to H&E staining?

      B2. We would like to thank the reviewer for the critical and positive comments. 3D pathology has been a long-standing research direction. The current pathology is 2D by examining H&E histology slides which were generated by thin sectioning biopsied and surgical specimens at different depths. The reliability of the pathological diagnosis suffers from under sampling of specimens. Although 3D pathology is possible by serial thin-sectioning, imaging, and then combining the images in 3D, it is not practice for clinical use due to the required labor and time.

      We demonstrated the advantages of OT-TP-LSM in various human cancer tissues. The relatively high imaging depths of OT-TP-LSM enabled the nondestructive visualization of detailed 3D cell structures with high contrast and without distortion and allowed a distinction between cancer and normal cell structures as well as the detection of cancer invasiveness within tissues. We revised the manuscript to explain the benefits of 3D pathology with OT-TP-LSM.

      C2-1. Revised manuscript, Results, 3D OT-TP-LSM imaging of human skin cancers, pages 8-9 and lines 176-180

      Using 3D visualization, normal glandular structures in the dermis were distinguished from BCC tumor nests (Video 1). Both eccrine and sebaceous glands could appear similar to BCC nests in 2D images at certain depths. Hence, nondestructive 3D visualization of cell structures would be important for distinguishing them, serving as a complement to the traditional 2D H&E images.

      C2-2. Revised manuscript, Results, 3D OT-TP-LSM imaging of human pancreatic cancers, pages 10-11 and lines 222-232

      Magnified images of ROI 1 (PDAC) at two different depths showed irregularly shaped glands with sharp angles and 3D structural complexity including unstable bridging structure inside (Figure 4B). An irregular and distorted architecture amidst desmoplastic stroma is one of the important diagnostic factors for PDAC [35]. The cancer glands exhibited disorganized cancer cell arrangement with nuclear membrane distortion. Magnified images of ROI 2 showed both nonneoplastic ducts and cancer glands in different cell arrangements (Figure 4C). The nonneoplastic ducts showed single-layered epithelium with small, evenly distributed cells expressing relatively high nuclear fluorescence. Cancer glands, on the other hand, had disorganized and multilayered structure with large nuclei. OT-TP-LSM visualized the 3D invasiveness of cancer glands within tissues nondestructively, which could not be identified from limited 2D information.

      C2-3. Revised manuscript, Results, 3D OT-TP-LSM imaging of human prostatic cancers, page 11 and lines 251-252

      OT-TP-LSM provided histological 3D information equivalent to that of the H&E stained image without the need for sectioning.

      C2-4. Revised manuscript, Discussion, page 12 and lines 274-276

      OT-TP-LSM was developed for the rapid and precise nondestructive 3D pathological examination of excised tissue specimens during both biopsy and surgery, as a compliment to traditional 2D H&E pathology by visualizing 3D cell structures.

      C2-5. Revised manuscript, Discussion, page 13 and lines 284-288

      The relatively high imaging depths of OT-TP-LSM enabled the nondestructive visualization of detailed 3D cell structures with high contrast and without distortion and allowed a distinction between cancer and normal cell structures as well as the detection of cancer invasiveness within tissues. These have been challenging with 2D histological images.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I would suggest the following points to the authors to enhance the readability of the manuscript and to provide a strong narrative to explain their findings:

      A3. Line 54: For the non-expert readers, please provide more background information about the histopathology before introducing the hematoxylin and eosin staining.

      B3. We would like to thank the reviewer for the comment. As suggested by the reviewer, we added information about the current standard method of histopathological examination and its limitations.

      C3. Revised manuscript, introduction, page 4 and lines 56-64 Precise intraoperative cancer diagnosis is crucial for achieving optimal patient outcomes by enabling complete tumor removal. The standard method is the microscopic cellular examination of surgically excised specimens following various processing steps, including thin sectioning and hematoxylin and eosin (H&E) cell staining. However, this examination method is laborious and time-consuming. Furthermore, it has inherent artifacts that disturb accurate diagnosis, including tissue loss, limited two-dimensional (2D) information, and sampling error [1]. High-speed three-dimensional (3D) optical microscopy, which can visualize cellular structures without thin sectioning, holds promise for nondestructive 3D pathological examination as a complement of 2D pathology limitation [1-4].

      A4. Line 66 and 71: Please briefly introduce the cited studies to give some information about the previous studies. This will help to reader to understand the innovative aspects of your study.

      B4. We would like to thank the reviewer for the comment. As suggested by the reviewer, we added a brief introduction about the cited studies.

      C4. Revised manuscript, introduction, pages 4-5 and lines 71-82

      As a deep tissue imaging method, two-photon microscopy (TPM) has been used in both biological and optical biopsy studies [17-19]. TPM is based on nonlinear two-photon excitation of fluorophores and achieves high imaging depths down to a few hundred micrometers by using long excitation wavelengths, which reduce light scattering. Moreover, TPM provides additional intrinsic second harmonic generation (SHG) contrast for visualizing collagen fibers within the extracellular matrix (ECM). This feature proved advantageous for high-contrast imaging of cancer tissue and microenvironmental analysis [20-22]. However, TPM has low imaging speeds due to point scanning-based imaging. To address this limitation, two-photon LSM (TP-LSM) techniques were developed for high-speed imaging [23-27]. Although TP-LSM facilitated rapid 3D imaging of cancer cells and zebrafish, its applications were limited to small samples and biological studies due to geometric limitations.

      A5. Line 72: Please mention the importance and benefit of having an open-top configuration. I think this is one of the key aspects that provide a high imaging depth in OT-LP-LSM.

      B5. We would like to thank the reviewer for the comment. Conventional LSM techniques including TP-LSM have a configuration in which the illumination objective is oriented in the horizontal plane and imaging is performed with orthogonally arranged objectives. However, this geometry limited lateral sample size physically and it is unsuitable to image centimeter-scale large tissue. Therefore, we developed OT-TP-LSM for 3D large tissue examination. High imaging depths were achieved with long excitation wavelengths and long emission wavelengths of fluorophores. The open-top configuration does not contribute to the improvement of imaging depth. We revised the manuscript to explain the need for open-top configuration.

      C5. Revised manuscript, introduction, page 5 and lines 82-86

      Conventional TP-LSM had a configuration of a horizontally oriented illumination objective and a vertically oriented imaging objective. This geometry imposed limitations on the sample size, rendering it unsuitable for the examination of centimeter-scale specimens. TP-LSM with open-top configuration is needed for 3D histological examination.

      A6. Line 78: It would be nice to clearly quantify the imaging depth here.

      B6. We would like to thank the reviewer for the comment. Although we considered entering the quantitative imaging depth of OT-TP-LSM in the introduction section, we decided that it would be appropriate to present the quantitative imaging depth in the Results section and discuss it in the Discussion section.

      A7. Line 146: Please clearly explain the reason why the upper layers are not resolved.

      B7. We would like to thank the reviewer for the comment and we are sorry for the missing information. The skin epidermis has various cell layers and superficial layers are composed of less rounded and flat cells with relatively small cytoplasm. Therefore, cells in that layer could be difficult to resolve with the current system resolution because there is little space between nuclei. Additionally, strong autofluorescence signal in the stratum corneum could be the reason for preventing visualization of the cells in the superficial layer. We revised the manuscript to explain the reasons in detail.

      C7. Revised manuscript, Results, 3D OT-TP-LSM imaging of human skin cancers, page 8 and lines 159-163

      Keratinocytes in the basal layer were relatively large and individually resolved, while those in the upper layers were unresolved and appeared as a band. It could be attributed to the upper layers being comprised of flat cells with relatively small cytoplasm, resulting in little space between nuclei. Additionally, strong autofluorescence signal in the stratum corneum might prevent visualization of the cells in the superficial layer.

      A8. Line 253: Please explain the importance of visualization of 3D cell structures in cancer pathology. I think this should be stated clearly throughout the text as it is the key component of OT-LP-LSM to complement the traditional H&E staining. Also, referring to the non-destructive manner of your technique would help to emphasize this point.

      B8. We would like to thank the reviewer for the comment. As answered in A2, the current H&E histological examination has inherent limitations due to limited 2D information and sampling errors. To resolve this, OT-TP-LSM was developed for the visualization of 3D cell structures nondestructively as a complement to traditional slide-based 2D pathology. We demonstrated the advantages of OT-TP-LSM in various human cancer tissues. The relatively high imaging depths of OT-TP-LSM enabled the nondestructive visualization of detailed 3D cell structures with high contrast and without distortion and allowed a distinction between cancer and normal cell structures as well as the detection of cancer invasiveness within tissues. We revised the manuscript to explain the benefits of 3D pathology with OT-TP-LSM.

      C8. Please refer to the answer in C2-1 – C2-5.

      A9. Figures: Please clearly mark the cancer regions in the images as indicated in Figure 5. It will help the reader to easily compare the healthy and invaded tissue parts.

      B9. We would like to thank the reviewer for the comment. We confirmed that the cancer area is not marked in Figure 4 of the pancreatic cancer tissue. We modified Figure 4 to mark the cancer region. Additionally, Figure 2 of the skin cancer tissue was also modified in this regard.

      C9. Modified Figure 2 and Figure 4.

      Author response image 1.

      Author response image 2.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer 1:

      This research used cell-based signaling assay and Gaussian-accelerated molecular dynamics (GaMD) to study peptide-mediated signaling activation of Polycystin-1 (PC1), which is responsible for the majority of autosomal dominant polycystic kidney disease (ADPKD) cases. Synthetic peptides of various lengths derived from the N-terminal portion of the PC1 C-terminal fragment (CTF) were applied to HEK293T cells transfected with stalkless mouse CTF expression construct. It was shown that peptides including the first 7, 9, and 17 residues of the N-terminal portion could activate signaling to the NFAT reporter. To further understand the underlying mechanism, docking and peptide-GaMD simulations of peptides composed of the first 9, 17, and 21 residues from the N-terminal portion of the human PC1 CTF were performed. These simulations revealed the correlation between peptide-CTF binding and PC1 CTF activation characterized by the close contact (salt bridge interaction) between residues R3848 and E4078. Finally, a Potts statistical model was inferred from diverged PC1 homologs to identify strong/conserved interacting pairs within PC1 CTF, some of which are highly relevant to the findings from the peptide GaMD simulations. The peptide binding pockets identified in the GaMD simulations may serve as novel targets for the design of therapeutic approaches for treating ADPKD.

      We greatly appreciate the reviewer’s encouraging and positive comments. The reviewer’ specific comments are addressed pointwise below and changes to the text will be highlighted in yellow in the revised manuscript.

      (1) The GaMD simulations all include exogenous peptides, thus lacking a control where no such peptide is present (and only stalkless CTF). An earlier study (PNAS 2022 Vol. 119 No. 19 e2113786119) covered this already, but it should be mentioned here that there was no observation of close/activation for the stalkless CTF.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s concern about the lack of a control where no exogenous peptide is present. As suggested by the reviewer, we are adding more details about the study on the stalkless CTF as a control in the Introduction of the revised manuscript. 

      (2) Although 5 independent trajectories were generated for each peptide, the authors did not provide sufficient details regarding the convergence of the simulation. This leaves some uncertainties in their results. Given that the binding poses changed relative to the starting docked poses for all three peptides, it is possible that some other binding pockets and/or poses were not explored.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment regarding the convergence of the simulation results. This is clarified in the revised manuscript as: 

      “We have calculated free energy profiles of individual simulations for each system, including the p9, p17, and p21, as shown below (Figs. S5, S6 and S8). For the p9 peptide, the “Bound” lowenergy state was consistently identified in the 2D free energy profile of each individual simulation (Fig. S5). For the p17 peptide, Pep-GaMD simulations were able to refine the peptide conformation from the "Unbound” to the "Intermediate” and “Bound” states in Sim1 and Sim5, while the peptide reached only the "Intermediate” state in the other three simulations (Fig. S6). For the p21 peptide, Pep-GaMD was able to refine the peptide docking conformation to the

      "Bound” state in all the five individual simulations (Fig. S8).”

      “It is important to note that the free energy profiles calculated from GaMD simulations of PC1 CTF were not fully converged since certain variations were observed among the individual simulations. Nevertheless, these calculations allowed us to identify representative low-energy binding conformations of the peptides.”

      (3) The free energy profiles (Figures 2 to 4) based on the selected coordinates provide important information regarding binding and CTF conformational change. However, it is a coarsegrained representation and complementary analysis such as RDFs, and/or contact maps between the peptide and CTF residues might be helpful to understand the details of their interactions. These details are currently only available in the text. 

      Following the reviewer's suggestion, we have now included a set of protein contact maps showing contacts between the peptides and the TOP domain for each peptide in the representative "Bound” state in revised Supplementary Information (Fig. S4). The contact maps serve to visualize the list of contacts mentioned in the main text. This will be clarified in the revised manuscript.

      (4) The use of a stalkless CTF is necessary for studying the functions of the exogenous peptides. However, the biological relevance of the stalkless CTF to ADPKD was not clearly explained, if any.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment. As correctly assessed by the reviewer, the stalkless CTF is not a biological form of PC1 observed in ADPKD, but rather was used as the simplest or least complex system in which the activities and binding of exogenous peptides could be studied. However, in ADPKD, there are numerous missense mutations reported within the GPCR autoproteolysis-inducing (GAIN) domain that have been shown to prevent or inhibit cleavage at the GPCR-coupled proteolysis site (GPS). Loss of PC1 GPS cleavage, which is known to cause ADPKD, would retain or sequester the stalk tethered agonist within the interior of the GAIN domain, which would presumably interfere with interactions between stalk tethered agonist residues and the remainder of the CTF. Furthermore, there are 10 single nucleotide polymorphisms reported within the stalk sequence (ADPKD Variant Database; https://pkdb.mayo.edu/welcome), most of which we have found to significantly reduce CTF-mediated activation of the NFAT reporter (Magenheimer BS, et al., Constitutive signaling by the C-terminal fragment of polycystin1 is mediated by a tethered peptide agonist; bioRxiv 2021.08.05.455255). In particular, the ADPKD-associated G3052R stalk mutation that was analyzed along with the stalkless CTF by GaMD simulations (Pawnikar et al, PNAS, 2022) has the same reduction in activity as the stalkless CTF in the cellular signaling reporter assays and the same loss of closed conformation interactions in GaMD analyses. As such, we believe the stalkless CTF has biological relevance from the aspect that it mimics the deficiency in signaling activation observed for PC1 CTF stalk mutants. This is clarified in the revised manuscript in the Introduction, page 5, “constructs encoding a stalkless PC1 CTF (a nonbiological mutant of PC1 with deletion of the first 21 N-terminal residues of CTF) and three ADPKD-associated…”) and near the beginning of the Discussion, page 16, where the biological relevance of studying the stalkless CTF is explained

      (5) The authors might want to clarify if a stalkless CTF is commonly seen in ADPKD, or if it is just a construct used for this study.

      The stalkless CTF is not a biological form of PC1, but rather a construct used for this study. This was clarified in the revised manuscript (see response above).

      (6) (Pages 7-8) "...we generated expression constructs of mouse (m) PC1 consisting of the CD5 signal peptide sequence fused in frame with the stalk sequence of mCTF ...". What is the CD5 signal peptide sequence here? What is its use?

      The CD5 signal peptide sequence is “MPMGSLQPLATLYLLGMLVASVLG” from the T cell surface glycoprotein, CD5. Since the N-terminus of PC1 CTF is derived from a posttranslational, autocatalytic, endoproteolytic cleavage event, this isoform is already membraneembedded and therefore lacks its endogenous signal peptide. The CD5 signal peptide coding sequence is added to the PC1 CTF expression constructs in order to ensure translation and insertion of the encoded protein at the endoplasmic reticulum. Additional details were added to the Experimental Procedures, page 2 of Supporting Information.

      (7) (Page 8) "All peptides were appended with a C-terminal, 7-residue hydrophilic sequence (GGKKKKK) to increase solubility". How did the authors make sure that this sequence has no influence on the signaling? 

      To determine the possible effect of the hydrophilic GGKKKKK sequence on signaling, we had a ‘solubility tag’ peptide (LGGKKKKK) synthesized and purified by GenScript. It was necessary to add an N-terminal Leu residue to the 7-residue hydrophilic tag sequence in order for the highly hydrophilic peptide to be recovered. Effect of treatment with the solubility tag peptide on activation of the NFAT reporter was assessed for both empty vector- and ∆stalkCTF-transfected cells in 3 separate signaling experiments (see figure below). Each experiment also included a negative control treatment (no peptide/culture medium only addition) and a positive control treatment (stalk peptide p17). The p17 peptide we had available was derived from the stalk sequence of human PC1 that differs from the mouse PC1 sequence at residues 15 and 17, which are two poorly conserved positions within the stalk sequence (see Reviewer 2, Response 3). In the first experiment with the solubility tag and human p17 peptides (B in figure below), we inadvertently used the empty expression vector and ∆stalkCTF expression construct from mouse PC1. After realizing our error, we then performed 2 additional signaling experiments (C and D in figure below) with the ‘correct’ human ∆stalkCTF expression construct and empty vector. In the revised manuscript, we have provided the results from each of the 3 experiments as Fig. S2 (below).

      (8) (Page 9) "Using a computational model of the ΔStalk PC1 CTF developed previously". The authors might want to expand here a little to give a short review about the structure preparation.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion regarding the addition of details for structure preparation for Stalkless CTF. We have added these details in section “Docking and Pep-GaMD simulations of peptide agonist binding to stalkless PC1 CTF” on Page 10 in the revised manuscript:  “The cryo-EM structure of human PC1-PC2 complex (PDB: 6A70) was used to build the computational model for WT PC1 CTF. As the protein had several missing regions including the Stalk and several loops, homology modeling of the missing regions was done using I-TASSER web server. Using the WT PC1 CTF model, computational model for ΔStalk was generated by deleting the first 21 residues (3049-3069) of the WT PC1 and using the structure for stalkless CTF, we successfully docked the p9, p17 and p21 stalk peptides with HPEPDOCK.  The peptides all bound to the TOP domain and the interface between the TOP domain and extracellular loop 1 (ECL1) of CTF.”

      (9) How was "contact" defined when counting the number of contacts used in the 2D PMFs (Figures 2-4). Response: We appreciate the reviewer’s comment regarding the definition of the number of contacts used in the 2D PMFs. This has been clarified in the revised manuscript as: “The number of contacts is calculated between any atom pairs within 4 Å distance of the peptide and extracellular domains of PC1 protein.”

      (10) How was the ranking of GaMD clusters done? It looks from Figure 3A that the "intermediate" state is more favorable compared to the "bound" state, but it was claimed in the text the "bound" state was ranked 1st. 

      Thanks to the reviewer for this comment. It has been clarified in the revised

      Supplementary Information: “Three independent Pep-GaMD simulations were combined to perform structural clustering using the hierarchical agglomerative clustering algorithm in CPPTRAJ. A 3 Å RMSD cutoff was used for each peptide system. PyReweighting was then applied to calculate the original free energy values of each peptide structural cluster with a cutoff of 500 frames. The structural clusters were finally ranked according to the reweighted free energy values.” And in the revised main text: “It is important to note that the free energy profiles calculated from GaMD simulations of PC1 CTF were not fully converged since certain variations were observed among the individual simulations. The free energy values of 2D PMF minima shown in Figure 3A could differ from those in the 1D PMF minima of peptide structural clusters, especially with the usage of distinct reaction coordinates. Nevertheless, these calculations allowed us to identify representative low-energy binding conformations of the peptides.”

      (11) When mentioning residue pair distances, such as in the sentence "The distance between the TOP domain residue R3848 and PL residue E4078 was 3.8 Å (Fig. 4D)" on page 12, it should be clarified if these distances are average distance, or a statistical error can be given.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment regarding the TOP Domain and PL distance between residues R3848-E4078. This has been clarified on page 14 in the revised manuscript as:

      “The distance between the TOP domain residue R3848 and PL residue E4078 was 3.8 Å. The distance was extracted from the top-ranked structural cluster of the p21 bound to the ΔStalk CTF, corresponding to the “Closed/Active” low-energy conformational state. (Fig. 4E)”.

      (12) More analysis of the GaMD can be performed. For example, the authors observed a single "bound" state for p21, but there must be some flexibility in the peptide and the protein itself. The authors might want to consider adding some plots illustrating the flexibility of the peptide residues (for example, a RMSD plot). Contact maps can also be added to visualize the results currently discussed in the text. 

      We thank the reviewer for their constructive suggestions. To characterize flexibility of the peptide and protein in the revised manuscript, we have added plots of the TOP-PL interaction distance between residues R3848-E4078 in PC1, the radius of gyration (Rg) of p21 and root-mean square deviation (RMSD) of p21 relative to the starting HPEPDOCK conformation of the peptide in the new Fig. S7. The peptide-protein contact map has also been added in the new Fig. S4.

      (13) (Page 7) In the sentence `...sampled the "Closed/Active" low-energy state relative to the large number of Stalk-TOP contacts`, I suggest using "related to" instead of "relative to"

      We thank the reviewer for the comment, and we have replaced "relative to" to “related to” in the following sentence `...sampled the "Closed/Active" low-energy state relative to the large number of Stalk-TOP contacts`

      (14) (Page 7) In the sentence `Our previous study utilized expression constructs of human PC1 CTF, however, in order to prepare for ...`, "PC1 CTF, however," -> "PC1 CTF. However,"

      We thank the reviewer for the comment, and we have replaced "PC1 CTF, however," to "PC1 CTF. However," in the following sentence `Our previous study utilized expression constructs of human PC1 CTF, however, in order to prepare for ...`.

      Reviewer 2:

      The autosomal dominant polycystic kidney disease (ADPKD) is a major form of polycystic kidney disease (PKD). To provide better treatment and avoid side effects associated with currently available options, the authors investigated an interesting GPCR, polycystin-1 (PC1), as a potential therapeutic target. In vitro and in silico studies were combined to identify peptide agonists for PC1 and to elucidate their roles in PC1 signaling. Overall, regarding the significance of the findings, this work described valuable peptide agonists for PC1 and the combined in vitro and in silico approach can be useful to study a complex system like PC1. However, the strength of the evidence is incomplete, as more experiments are needed as controls to validate the computational observations. The work appears premature.

      We greatly appreciate the reviewer’s encouraging and positive comments. The reviewer’ specific comments are addressed pointwise below and changes to the text will be highlighted in yellow in the revised manuscript.

      (1) The therapeutic potential of PC1 peptide agonists is unclear in the introduction. For example, while the FDA-approved drug Jynarque was mentioned, the text was misleading as it sounded like Jynarque targeted PC1. In fact, it targets another GPCR, the vasopressin receptor 2 (V2). A clear comparison of targeting PC1 over V2 pathways and their therapeutic relevance can help the readers better understand the importance of this work. Importantly, a clear background on the relationship between PC1 agonism and treatments for ADPKD is necessary.

      We understand the confusion that was caused by the brevity of our introductory paragraph and will clarify the differences in therapeutic targeting between Jynarque and our PC1 stalk-derived peptides in the revised manuscript. We will also expound on the rationale for targeting PC1 agonism as a therapeutic approach for ADPKD versus Jynarque. For example: It is known that ADPKD disease severity is dependent on the functional levels of PC1. Jynarque is a small molecule antagonist of the arginine vasopressin receptor 2, V2R, whose signaling, and production of cAMP has been shown to be increased in ADPKD. As this drug targets one of the downstream aberrant pathways, it is only capable of slowing disease progression and has numerous undesirable side effects. We reasoned that a therapeutic agent capable of stimulating and thus augmenting PC1 signaling function would be a safer, cyst initiation-proximal treatment capable of preventing cyst formation with few side effects.

      (2) PC1 is a complex membrane protein, and most figures focus on the peptide-binding site. For general readers (or readers that did not read the previous PNAS publication), it is hard to imagine the overall structure and understand where the key interactions (e.g., R3848-E4078) are in the protein and how peptide binding affects locally and globally. I suggest enhancing the illustrations.

      We thank the reviewer for the constructive comment on adding more illustrations for the PC1 protein to understand the overall structure and the location of the key interaction R3848E4078. We have included these suggestions and modified the main figures in the revised manuscript.  

      (3) The authors used the mouse construct for the cellular assays and the peptide designs in preparation for future in vivo assays. This is helpful in understanding biology, but the relevance of drug discovery is weakened. Related to Point 1, the therapeutic potential of PC1 peptide agonist is largely missing.

      The therapeutic potential of a PC1 peptide agonist is addressed in response #1 above. As mentioned in the manuscript and recognized by the reviewer, the cellular signaling assays were performed with the mouse PC1 CTF expression construct and with peptides based on the mouse PC1 stalk sequence for future, pre-clinical studies, while the peptide binding studies were performed with the human PC1 stalk sequence. We feel the relevance for drug discovery is not significantly weakened for a number of reasons: 1) as shown in Fig. 1A, the stalk sequence is highly conserved between mouse and human PC1, specifically there are only 2 residue differences present within peptides p17 and p21. One of the differences is a ‘semi-conservative’ Gln-Arg substitution at peptide residue 15, while the second difference is a conservative Ile-Val substitution at peptide residue 17; 2) we have found that an Arg to Cys mutation within the mouse PC1 CTF stalk has the same effect on signaling as the corresponding human Gln to Cys ADPKD-associated mutation which was analyzed in Pawnikar et al., 2022; and 3) both peptide residues 15 and 17 represent highly variable positions within the PC1 stalk as shown in the sequence logo (below) of the stalk sequence from 16 vertebrate species; and 4) while addressing the potential effect of the hydrophilic solubility tag on stalk peptide-mediated rescue of CTF∆stalk signaling (see Reviewer 1 comments, point #7), we utilized the ‘human’ version of p17 as a positive control and tested its activation with both mouse and human CTF∆stalk expression constructs and found that human p17 peptide was also capable of stimulating the mouse CTF∆stalk protein (Fig. S2).

      Author response image 1.

      (4) More control experiments are needed. For example, a 7-residue hydrophilic sequence (GGKKKKK) is attached to the peptide design to increase solubility. This 7-residue peptide should be tested for PC1 activation as a control. Second, there is no justification for why the peptide design must begin with residue T3041. Can other segments of the stalk also be agonists?

      As mentioned above for Reviewer 1, the hydrophilic peptide has been synthesized and tested for activation of signaling by the stalkless CTF in the revised manuscript as Fig. S2. The design of peptides that begin with residue T3041 of mouse PC1 CTF is modeled on numerous similar studies for the family of adhesion GPCRs. Optimization of the binding and activity of the PC1 peptide agonist will be investigated in future studies and could include such parameters as whether the peptide must include the first residue and whether subsegments of the stalk are also agonists, however, we feel these questions are beyond the scope of this initial report.

      (5) There are some major concerns about the simulations: The GaMD simulations showed different binding sites of p-21, p-17, and p-9, and the results report the simulated conformations as "active conformational states". However, these are only computational findings without structural biology or mutagenesis data to validate. Further, neither docking nor the simulation data can explain the peptide SAR. Finally, it will be interesting if the authors can use docking or GaMD and explain why some peptide designs (like P11-P15) are less active (as control simulations).

      The reviewer brings up an important observation regarding differences in binding sites between peptides p9, p17 and p21. We will include discussion of this observation and our interpretations to the revised manuscript. While the present study is focused on identification of initial peptides that are able to activate the PC1 CTF, we shall include further mutation experiments and simulations, peptide SAR and optimization of the lead peptides in future studies. This has been clarified in the revised manuscript.

      (6) Additional experiments for the controls and for validating the simulations. Additional simulations to explain the SAR.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment for additional experiments for the controls and additional simulations to explain the SAR. For future studies, we shall include further mutation experiments and simulations, peptide SAR and optimization of the lead peptides.

      (7) What is the selectivity of the peptides between PC1 and PC2?

      We have not tested the selectivity of the peptides for PC1 versus PC2 primarily because transfection of PC2 does not activate the NFAT reporter. However, it is possible that co-transfection of PC2 with the PC1 CTF could alter stalk peptide binding. This will be important to consider in future studies.

      Reviewer 3:

      The authors demonstrate the activation of Polycystin-1 (PC1), a G-protein coupled receptor, using small peptides derived from its original agonist, the stalk TA protein. In the experimental part of the study, the authors performed cellular assays to check the peptide-induced reactivation of a mutant form of PC1 which does not contain the stalk agonist. The experimental data is supported by computational studies using state-of-the-art Gaussian accelerated Molecular Dynamics (GaMD) and bioinformatics analysis based on sequence covariance. The computer simulations revealed the mechanistic details of the binding of the said peptides with the mutant PC1 protein and discovered different bound, unbound, and intermediate conformations depending on the peptide size and sequence. The use of reliable and well-established molecular simulation algorithms and the physiological relevance of this protein autosomal dominant polycystic kidney disease (ADPKD) make this work particularly valuable.

      We greatly appreciate the reviewer’s encouraging and positive comments. The reviewer’ specific comments are addressed pointwise below and changes to the text will be highlighted in yellow in the revised manuscript.

      (1) No control has been used for the computational (GaMD) study as the authors only report the free energy surface for 3 highly agonistic peptides but for none of the other peptides that did not induce an agonistic effect. Therefore, in the current version, the reliability of the computational results is not foolproof.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s concern about the lack of control with the other peptides that did not induce an agonistic effect. To address the reviewer’s concern, we have included more details on the study of the stalkless CTF and the solubility tag peptide (Fig. S2) as controls in the revised manuscript.

      (2) All discussions about the residue level interactions focused only on geometric aspects (distance, angle, etc) but not the thermodynamic aspect (e.g. residue-wise interaction energy). Considering they perform a biased simulation; the lack of interaction energy analysis only provides a qualitative picture of the mechanism.

      As mentioned by the reviewer, we have added MM/PBSA analysis results in the revised manuscript and SI.

      Molecular Mechanics/Poisson-Boltzmann Surface Area (MM/PBSA) analysis was performed to calculate the binding free energies of peptides p9, p17 and p21 to PC1 CTF. The analysis was performed using the trajectory in which the peptide was bound to the receptor. In MM/PBSA, the binding free energy of the ligand (L) to the receptor (R) to form the complex (RL) is calculated as:

      where GRL is the Gibbs free energy of the complex RL, GR is the Gibbs free energy of the molecule R in its unbound state and GL is the Gibbs free energy of the molecule L in its unbound state, respectively. 

      𝛥𝐺𝑏𝑖𝑛𝑑 can be divided into contributions of different interactions as:

      in which

      where ΔEMM , ΔGsol , 𝞓H and −TΔS are the changes in the gas-phase molecular mechanics (MM) energy, solvation free energy, enthalpy and conformational entropy upon ligand binding, respectively. ΔEMM includes the changes in the internal energies ΔEint (bond, angle and dihedral energies), electrostatic energies ΔEelec , and the van der Waals energies ΔEvdW. ΔGsol is the sum of the electrostatic solvation energy ΔGPB/GB (polar contribution) and the nonpolar contribution ΔGSA between the solute and the continuum solvent. The polar contribution is calculated using either the Poisson Boltzmann (PB) or Generalized Born (GB) model, while the nonpolar energy is usually estimated using the solvent-accessible surface area (SASA) where 𝞬 is surface tension coefficient and b is the constant offset. The change in conformational entropy −TΔS is usually calculated by normal-mode analysis on a set of conformational snapshots taken from MD simulations. However, due to the large computational cost, changes in the conformational entropy are usually neglected as we were concerned more on relative binding free energies of the similar peptide ligands.

      MM/PBSA analysis was performed using the gmx_MMPBSA software with the following command line:

      gmx_MMPBSA -O -i mmpbsa.in -cs com.tpr -ci index.ndx -cg 1 13 -ct com_traj.xtc -cp topol.top -o FINAL_RESULTS_MMPBSA.dat -eo FINAL_RESULTS_MMPBSA.csv Input file for running MM/PBSA analysis:

      &general

      sys_name="Prot-Pep-CHARMM",

      startframe=1, endframe=200, # In gmx_MMPBSA v1.5.0 we have added a new PB radii set named charmm_radii. 

      # This radii set should be used only with systems prepared with CHARMM force fields. 

      # Uncomment the line below to use charmm_radii set

      # PBRadii=7,

      /

      &pb

      # radiopt=0 is recommended which means using radii from the prmtop file for both the PB calculation and for the NP

      # calculation

      istrng=0.15, fillratio=4.0, radiopt=0

      The relative rank of the overall peptide binding free energies (Table S1) was consistent with the experimental signaling data, i.e., p21>p9>p17, for which p21 showed the largest binding free energy value of binding (-40.29±6.94 kcal/mol).

      (3) It is not mentioned clearly whether the reader should interpret the free energy landscapes quantitatively or qualitatively. Considering no error analysis or convergence plots are reported for the GaMD free energy surfaces, it may be assumed the results are qualitative. The readers should consider this caveat and not try to quantitatively reproduce these free energy landscapes with other comparable techniques.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment whether the free energy landscapes should be interpreted quantitatively or qualitatively. The presented free energy landscapes could be considered semi-quantitative since the simulations are not fully converged. This will be clarified in the revised manuscript as: “It is important to note that the free energy profiles calculated from GaMD simulations of PC1 CTF were not fully converged since certain variations were observed among the individual simulations. Nevertheless, these calculations allowed us to identify representative low-energy binding conformations of the peptides.”

      (4) Energy decomposition analysis similar to the following paper (https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/bi201856m) should be provided to understand the residue level enthalpic contribution in the peptide-protein interaction.

      As mentioned by the reviewer, we have performed residue-wise interaction energy analysis and included the analysis results in the revised manuscript and SI.

      Residue-wise interaction energy analysis was performed on peptides p9, p17 and p21 using the trajectory in which the peptide was bound to the PC1 CTF using the gmx_MMPBSA software with the following command line:

      gmx_MMPBSA -O -i mmpbsa.in -cs com.tpr -ct com_traj.xtc -ci index.ndx -cg 3 4 -cp topol.top -o FINAL_RESULTS_MMPBSA.dat -eo FINAL_RESULTS_MMPBSA.csv -do FINAL_DECOMP_MMPBSA.dat -deo FINAL_DECOMP_MMPBSA.csv

      Input file for running residue-wise energy decomposition analysis:

      &general

      sys_name="Decomposition", startframe=1, endframe=200,

      # forcefields="leaprc.protein.ff14SB"

      /

      &gb

      igb=5, saltcon=0.150,

      /

      # make sure to include at least one residue from both the receptor #and peptide in the print_res mask of the &decomp section.

      # this requirement is automatically fulfilled when using the within keyword.

      # http://archive.ambermd.org/201308/0075.html

      &decomp

      idecomp=2, dec_verbose=3, print_res="A/854-862 A/1-853”,

      /

      Residue-wise energy decomposition analysis allowed us to identify key residues that contributed the most to the peptide binding energies. These included residues T1 and V9 in p9 (Table S2), residues T1, R15 and V17 in p17 (Table S3), and residues P10, P11, P19 and P21 in p21 and residue W3726 in the PC1 CTF (Table S4). The energetic contributions of these residues apparently correlated to the sequence coevolution predicted from the Potts model.

      (5) To showcase the reliability of the computational approach, the authors should perform the MD simulation studies with one peptide that did not show any significant agonistic effect in the experiment. This will work as a control for the computational protocol and will demonstrate the utility of the pep-GaMD simulation in this work.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s concern about the lack of control with the other peptides that did not induce an agonistic effect. It is difficult for us to add more MD simulations on the other peptides, due to student leave after PhD graduation. But to address the reviewer’s concern, we have included more details on the study of the stalkless CTF as a control in the revised manuscript.

      (6) To assess the accuracy of the computational results the authors should mention (either in the main text or SI) whether the reported free energy surfaces were the average of the five simulations or computed from one simulation. In the latter case, free energy surfaces computed from the other four simulations should be provided in the SI. In addition, how many binding unbinding events have been observed in each simulation should be mentioned.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment regarding convergence of the simulation free energy surfaces. In response to Reviewer 1, we have calculated free energy profiles of individual simulations for each system, including the p9, p17, and p21 (Figs. S5, S6 and S8). 

      “We have calculated free energy profiles of individual simulations for each system, including the p9, p17, and p21 (Figs. S5, S6 and S8). For the p9 peptide, the “Bound” low-energy state was consistently identified in the 2D free energy profile of each individual simulation (Fig. S5). For the p17 peptide, Pep-GaMD simulations were able to refine the peptide conformation from the "Unbound” to the "Intermediate” and “Bound” states in Sim1 and Sim5, while the peptide reached only the "Intermediate” state in the other three simulations (Fig. S6). For the p21 peptide, PepGaMD was able to refine the peptide docking conformation to the "Bound” state in all the five individual simulations (Fig. S8).”

      “It is important to note that the free energy profiles calculated from GaMD simulations of PC1 CTF were not fully converged since certain variations were observed among the individual simulations. Nevertheless, these calculations allowed us to identify representative low-energy binding conformations of the peptides.”

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment

      This is a useful report of a spatially-extended model to study the complex interactions between immune cells, fibroblasts, and cancer cells, providing insights into how fibroblast activation can influence tumor progression. The model opens up new possibilities for studying fibroblast-driven effects in diverse settings, which is crucial for understanding potential tumor microenvironment manipulations that could enhance immunotherapy efficacy. While the results presented are solid and follow logically from the model’s assumptions, some of these assumptions may require further validation, as they appear to oversimplify certain aspects in light of complex experimental findings, system geometry, and general principles of active matter research.

      We thank the editor for recognizing the usefulness of our work. This work does not aim to precisely describe the complexity of the tumor microenvironment in lung cancer, but rather to classify and rigorously calibrate a minimum number of parameters to the clinical data we collect and generate, and reproduce the global structures of the microenvironment. We identify different scenarios, and show how they depend on the local interactions within this framework. Although we started in the first version with coalescence in the main text and anisotropic geometry in the supporting information, we realized that we needed to provide more directions to better show how our model can be extended. Thus, in Section III-4 we added an analysis of a microenvironment with blood vessels, and showed how to introduce anisotropic friction as a function of fiber orientation, as well as active stress, paving the way for further studies, that would make our model more complex. However, in a first step, it is crucial to start with a limited number of parameters that can be rigorously determined, and this is how this first work was conceived.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      The authors present an important work where they model some of the complex interactions between immune cells, fibroblasts and cancer cells. The model takes into account the increased ECM production of cancer-associated fibroblasts. These fibres trap the cancer but also protect it from immune system cells. In this way, these fibroblasts’ actions both promote and hinder cancer growth. By exploring different scenarios, the authors can model different cancer fates depending on the parameters regulating cancer cells, immune system cells and fibroblasts. In this way, the model explores non-trivial scenarios. An important weakness of this study is that, though it is inspired by NSCLC tumors, it is restricted to modelling circular tumor lesions and does not explore the formation of ramified tumors, as in NSCLC. In this way, is only a general model and it is not clear how it can be adapted to simulate more realistic tumor morphologies.

      We thank the reviewer for highligting the importance of our work. We acknowledge that although we provided anisotropic geometries and the study of the coalescence in the first version, more effort was needed to provide tools to extend our formalism to non-ideal cases. This is now added as Section III-4, where we analyze the impact of blood vessels, and the anisotropic friction due to the nematic order for the fibers; this nematic order can also be used to introduce active nematic stress.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors develop a computational model (and a simplified version thereof) to treat an extremely important issue regarding tumor growth. Specifically, it has been argued that fibroblasts have the ability to support tumor growth by creating physical conditions in the tumor microenvironment that prevent the relevant immune cells from entering into contact with, and ultimately killing, the cancer cells. This inhibition is referred to as immune exclusion. The computational approach follows standard procedures in the formulation of models for mixtures of different material species, adapted to the problem at hand by making a variety of assumptions as to the activity of different types of fibroblasts, namely ”normal” versus ”cancer-associated”. The model itself is relatively complex, but the authors do a convincing job of analyzing possible behaviors and attempting to relate these to experimental observations.

      Strengths:

      As mentioned, the authors do an excellent job of analyzing the behavior of their model both in its full form (which includes spatial variation of the concentrations of the different cellular species) and in its simplified mean field form. The model itself is formulated based on established physical principles, although the extent to which some of these principles apply to active biological systems is not clear (see Weaknesses). The results of the model do offer some significant insights into the critical factors which determine how fibroblasts might affect tumor growth; these insights could lead to new experimental ways of unraveling these complex sets of issues and enhancing immunotherapy.

      We thank the referee for this summary and for recognizing the strengths of our paper.

      Weaknesses:

      Models of the form being studied here rely on a large number of assumptions regarding cellular behavior. Some of these seemed questionable, based on what we have learned about active systems. The problem of T cell infiltration as well as the patterning of the extracellular matrix (ECM) by fibroblasts necessarily involve understanding cell motion and cell interactions due e.g. to cell signaling. Adopting an approach based purely on physical systems driven by free energies alone does not consider the special role that active processes can play, both in motility itself and in the type of self-organization that can occur due to these cell-cell interactions. This to me is the primary weakness of this paper.

      We thank the referee for this important comment, that allows us to clarify this important point. Although biological materials are out of equilibrium, their behavior often resembles that dictated by thermodynamics. Hence the usefulness of constructing a free energy, in terms of these variables. In a first approach to decipher the complex interactions and describe the different and sometimes non-trivial outcomes in this system that involves many components, we must start by minimizing the number of parameters, and identifying those complex processes, that control the evolution of the system. The free energy that we build on this biological system contains therefore out-of-equilibrium processes that can be approximated by a ”close to equilibrium” description. Our approach is a classical one in statistical physics of active systems, namely in the effort to construct an equivalent free-energy for out-of-equilibrium systems. This allows to gain a clearer insight into those complex processes.

      We have added a sentence in the main text, section III.1, to clarify this point:

      “Building a free-energy density for a biological material is justified, because, although biological materials are out of equilibrium, their behavior often resembles that dictated by thermodynamics. It is therefore useful to write a free energy in terms of state variables.”

      Nevertheless, we recognize that we should have provided more tools for using our formalism by making it active. This is why we introduced the nematic order in the fibers in Section III-4. This nematic order can be used to introduce active stress, and we have cited previous works by some of us see [?, ?, ?] as references for building active processes out of it.

      We must also note that cell signaling has been introduced a minima in our system for providing the cue for the arrival of T-cells and NAFs from the boundaries. However, we found that although we had evoked the other role of the chemicals in the transformation from NAFs to CAFs in the text, details were not well explained. We have therefore corrected and added some explanations in the introduction of section III, and III.1, III.2.

      A separate weakness concerns the assumption that fibroblasts affect T cell behavior primarily by just making a more dense ECM. There are a number of papers in the cancer literature (see, for some examples, Carstens, J., Correa de Sampaio, P., Yang, D. et al. Spatial computation of intratumoral T cells correlates with survival of patients with pancreatic cancer. Nat Commun 8, 15095 (2017);Sun, Xiujie, Bogang Wu, Huai-Chin Chiang, Hui Deng, Xiaowen Zhang, Wei Xiong, Junquan Liu et al. ” Tumour DDR1 promotes collagen fibre alignment to instigate immune exclusion.” Nature 599, no. 7886 (2021): 673-678) that seem to indicate that density alone is not a sufficient indicator of T cell behavior. Instead, the organization of the ECM (for example, its anisotropy) could be playing a much more essential role than is given credit for here. This possibility is hinted at in the Discussion section but deserves much more emphasis.

      The referee is right in his comment, and we thank him for raising this issue. We have therefore introduced the anisotropic orientation of the fibers, which induces an anisotropic friction in a new section III-4. In addition, the references pointed out were included in this section. However, although the anisotropy strongly influences the fate of the tumor when the fibers are oriented perpendicular to the surface of the cancer nest, it is less effective when the fibroblasts are oriented in the direction of surface of the cancer nest. In the latter case, which is often the case before cancer cells reshape the tumor microenvironment, the matrix density should correlate with the friction.

      Finally, the mixed version of the model is, from a general perspective, not very different from many other published models treating the ecology of the tumor microenvironment (for a survey, see Arabameri A, Asemani D, Hadjati J (2018), A structural methodology for modeling immune-tumor interactions including pro-and anti-tumor factors for clinical applications. Math Biosci 304:48-61). There are even papers in this literature that specifically investigate effects due to allowing cancer cells to instigate changes in other cells from being tumor-inhibiting to tumor-promoting. This feature occurs not only for fibroblasts but also for example for macrophages which can change their polarization from M1 to M2. There needed to be some more detailed comparison with this existing literature.

      The referee is right that the first part of our approach, namely the dynamical system may be common in this kind of system, and it needs to be mentioned. So we added the following sentence in the discussion: ”This is in line with several similar mathematical models, that study through this lens the inhibition/activation of the immune system by cancer cells either by means of compartmental nonlinear models similar to our dynamical system, for instance regarding macrophage recruitment and cytokine signaling {arabameri2018structural} {li2019computational}, or mixture models {fotso2024mixture}. We combine the two approaches in order to rigorosly derive the parameters of the model and gain insights from both.”

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The authors should address the following points:

      Major issues

      (1) The shape of tumors simulated differs immensely from the observed tumors in Fig. 2. Here, the tumor is constituted by irregular domains, not dissimilar from domains in phase separating mixtures. The domains simulated are circular. Since the authors are using the space dependent model to model the increase in tumor cells with time in the different scenarios (immune-desert, immune-excluded, immune inflamed), it should explain how non-spherical tumor structures can be observed in these scenarios. The authors introduce tumor coalescence in page 28, however, it is not expected that the structures observed in Fig 2 are the result from different tumors merging and coalescing, because that would result from an unlikely large number of initial mutation events in the same region of the tissue. The authors should explain what mechanisms present in the model can lead to non-spherical forms.

      We agree with the reviewer that real tumors are rarely round contrary to what our numerics suggests. In fact, only the last figure of our paper in the supporting information was more appropriate for such a discussion. We are now adding discussions and new figures to better illustrate our spatial model, see Figure 6 and section III-4. The in situ geometry of tumors depends on the shape of the host organ, the diffusive (chemical) or advected species such as T cells and fibroblasts, and on the nutrients. Thus, in our case, only cancer cells are produced locally, but during growth the tumor is strongly constrained by the microenvironment, and thus the geometry of the domain we model in the numerics and its boundary conditions. This is also true for the chemicals responsible for growth, cellular advection and phenotypic transformation. Their concentration depends on a convection-diffusion equation and boundary conditions. For a tumor in situ, such as in the lung, the available space is a constraint that will dominate the final geometry of the tumor nests. We do not think that coalescence is controlled by mutational events, but most likely by the search for space necessary for growth. Compared to the first version, we add new figures (Figure 6) that show that the geometry of the organ, as well as the localization of blood vessels, are a cause of the irregularity of the tumor shapes. We also introduce orientational order, which as suggested in section III-4, can induce anisotropic friction and stresses, as well as anisotropic growth. We cite (Ackermann, Joseph, and Martine Ben Amar. ”Onsager’s variational principle in proliferating biological tissues, in the presence of activity and anisotropy.” The European Physical Journal Plus 138.12 (2023): 1103.) where we described active stresses and coupling related to anisotropic growth.

      (2) According to the authors, the model presented in equations (1) and onwards simulates the evolution of the fraction of tumor cells in the tissue. However the fraction of tumor cells, for example, depends itself on the variation of other cell types. For example, if fibroblasts were to proliferate with rate alpha, even without tumor cells proliferating, the fraction of tumor cells in the mixture should decrease as alpha times the tumor cells fraction. These terms are missing. The equations do not describe the evolution of the cells’ fractions but of the amount of cells of each type, normalised by the total carrying capacity of non-normal cells in the tissue. The text should be rewritten accordingly.

      We agree with the referee: our definition of cell density was not precise enough and may appear misleading. In the paragraph II1, we more explictly introduce the word mass fraction which is the correct physical quantity to introduce into the spatial model.

      ”All these cells have the same mass density and the sum of their mass fraction satisfies the relationship S = C + T + F<sub>NA</sub> + F<sub>A</sub> = 1-N, where N is a healthy non active component as healthy cells, for example.”

      It is less intuitive than ”number of cells per unit volume” but necessary for the following (III)

      (3) The authors start by calculating fixed points of different versions of the dynamical system without spatial dependence. They should explain what is the relevance of these fixed points: in a real situation, where the concentration of tumor fibroblasts and T-cells depend on position, in which conditions are these fixed points relevant?

      The referee is right and we will clarify this point: the dynamic analysis is a help for understanding and predicting the scenario occurring in the system. After all the steps of paragraph 2.2, we are faced with 11 independent parameters only for the dynamical system and without the parameters generated by the space modeling itself. Our estimation concerns only lung cancer. These parameters do not appear in the literature. The parameters introduced in Sec. III which are more related to physical interactions such as friction, cell-cell adhesion, etc. can be found in the literature or can be estimated and thus measured in in vitro experiments (see Ackermann and Ben Amar, EPJP 2023, P. Benaroch, J. Nikolic et al. 2024, biorxiv). So what are the fixed points for: they help to get the right numbers for spatial analysis. To recover special features of cancer evolution, we need a model, but also correct estimates of the data in a code that is quite technical and heavy, with each simulation taking a certain amount of time. For users who only need rough predictions, the analysis in section 2 is sufficient.

      It is also important to note that the global result depends only on the source terms, and on the boundary conditions. This can be illustrated with a simple example: Consider the governing equation for the density of a component with velocity v and source term:

      Integrating the equation over a fixed volume V of surface S gives:

      . This integrated equation can then be approximated by the dynamical system that we write. Thus, while the dynamical system does not give any information about the local structure of the system, it may be indicative of its global outcome.

      (4)   In page 15, the authors identify that α<sub>NA</sub> is proportional to δ𝝐<sup>4</sup>. However, in equation (7), they replace α<sub>NA</sub> by δ𝝐<sup>4</sup> without the proportionality constant. This should be corrected.

      Thank you for your remark. This typo is now corrected.

      (5) The tumor cell movement should be much slower than the T-cells. Here, the authors assign a similar friction coefficient for the cancer cells and T-cells, for example. However, in lung cancer tumor cells are epithelial, and adhere to each other in the tissue. Their movement is very restricted by the basement membranes and by cell-cell adhesion. Immune cells and T-cells on the other hand move rapidly throughout the stroma. It is a gross simplification to not consider the low epitelial tissue mobility in the context of lung cancer.

      It is possible to assume different friction coe cients for each phase pair. This has been done in a previous publication, Ackermann et al., Physics report 2021. It is also possible to play with the cell-cell adhesion in the energy density and on the diffusion coe cient introduced in the Flory-Higgins free energy. Cell-cell adhesion is taken into account in the energy, and this makes the tumor a more dense phase, while T-cells can move towards cancer cells to which they are attracted. In the last part of the paper, we show the role of an anisotropic friction due to a nematic order for activated fibroblasts and all the other cells

      (6) What is the biological mechanism by which the T-cells form a colony with a surface tension? In the phase-field model, the authors have a surface tension assigned to the cancer cells, T-cells and fibroblasts. Can the authors justify biologically why do they consider these surface tensions?

      The fact that T-cells form a colony is due to the accumulation of T-cells at the outer boundary of the tumor, as they are attracted to it but cannot penetrate due to the strong cell-cell adhesion of the tumor cells in the nest. Adding a gradient square is standard in continuous models to limit the sharp variations. In a continuous approach, the gradient square contribution limits the sharp variations in cell density which are not physical.

      Minor issues

      (a) Page 6 (end), characterisation of the fibre barrier produced by CAFs missing: what is the fibre density, how it can hinder the spread of cancer and T-cell motility? Is it so dense that it prevents ameboid movement? Can cells move through it using matrix degradation proteins?

      The fiber density corresponds to the fibrous organic extracellular matrix secreted by cancer-associated fibroblasts. In desmotic (highly fibrous tumors such as PDAC or NSCLC), this extracellular matrix deposited around the tumor forms a physical barrier around the tumor nest, preventing both cell migration and capillary and immune cells penetration. In these cases, the fibrous belt actually prevents ameboid movement and cells must deform significantly to migrate. The role of this barrier was particularly demonstrated in the reference (Grout, John A., et al. ”Spatial positioning and matrix programs of cancer-associated fibroblasts promote T-cell exclusion in human lung tumors.” Cancer Discovery 12.11 (2022): 2606-2625.). In later stages of cancer, the tumor may adapt and develop strategies to metastasize, such as matrix degradation. This matrix can be oriented, organized or disordered. To build a minimal model, we first considered an isotropic friction and also an anisotropic friction of the nematic belt, due to the activated fibroblasts. In the case of T-cells, as mentioned in section I.1, it is true that the biological literature also considers a phenotypic transformation of the T cells by the activated fibroblasts: this concerns both their proliferative capacities, antigen recognition and also their cytotoxic function. To better document the different mechanisms, we add the following publication: Cancer associated fibroblasts-an impediment to effective anti-cancer T cell immunity, by Koppensteiner, Lilian and Mathieson, Layla and O’Connor, Richard A and Akram, Ahsan R, Frontiers in immunology (2022).

      However, our goal is to build a minimal model and to characterize and quantify the physical process in which CAFs are involved, namely the role of a physical barrier, that has been documented, as documented above.

      (b) Page 19 (Fig 3), in the figure legend it is written ”resting fibroblasts”, should be ”non-activated fibroblasts”.

      The referee is right: it will be better to write non-activated fibroblasts. This is now changed in the main text.

      (c) Page 21 (equation), what is dΩ? It is dr?

      We thank the referee for raising this point. The text was indeed ambiguous as sometimes dΩ was replaced by dr. To be clearer, all the elements of volume are now noted dV , and the element of surface of the system are noted dS.

      In the article the units are in italic and should be in roman.

      Thank you for raising this point. It has been corrected.

      (d) Page 25 (beginning section III.3), the authors mention that the simulation is 2D, however, the simulation has radial symmetry. A 1D simulation in radial coordinates could simulate a 3D spherical system. Is the simulation of this section equivalent to a 1D radial simulation (in 2D)?

      The referee is right that in radial symmetry, a 1d equation may be written. We therefore present numerics with irregular shapes of the tumor nest in order to make the system fully 2d.

      (e) Page 26 (Fig 4). Legends inside the plots of plates A, B, C and D are not clear. Colorbar range of plates A and D is different. Would facilitate if the ranges were the same.

      The referee is right: the surface plots presented in figure 4 would be easier to compare with the same colorbar range for the legends. In fact, as the referee noted, figures in A, B and C have the same legends, while figure in D has a different one. This is due to the fact that D represents the case of the immune-inflamed tumor where the cancer mass fraction is quite vanishing, resulting in values that are of 3 orders of magnitude lower than those present in A, B and C. Therefore, they would disappear if the colorbar range were equal to the others.We insist more on the change of scale in the legend of Figure 4, in the new version.

      (f) Page 29 (Fig 5), would facilitate if the order of immune-desert, immune-excluded, immune-inflamed was maintained throughout the document. In this figure the immune-inflamed case appears first.

      We agree with the reviewer that following the same order in which the different cases are presented throughout the manuscript would be helpful in comparing the different figures. Therefore, we have modified Figure 5.

      (g) Page 31, the authors indicate that pharmacodynamics and pharmacokinetics are highly dependent on tumour spatial structure. Can they provide examples and citations?

      In the discussion, we have added references concerning pharmacodynamics.

      (h) Page 33 (Fig Sup2), would facilitate if the order of immune-desert, immune-excluded, immune-inflamed was maintained throughout the document. ±±

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out, the order of the different scenarios in Fig Sup 2 has now been changed.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Major points

      (1) Following on from the discussion in the public review, I feel that there are a number of critical issues that need to be addressed regarding modeling assumptions. I would like to understand why the authors believe it is possible to use a free energy-driven model of the microenvironment when many of the processes relevant for their study have an undeniably ”active media” flavor.

      The referee is right that processes in biology are active processes. However, it is a classical approach to model physical interactions between biological components with a free-energy, especially cell adhesion, as they often lead to quasi-stationary equilibrium-like patterns. The free-energy approach has also the advantage to derive straight-forwardly complex phenomena involving many components. Activity can indeed be introduced in such a framework, if we know that the fibroblasts transform into myo-fibroblasts, see for example our previous publication Ackermann and Ben Amar, EPJP 2023. However, in the interest of simplification and reduction of the number of free parameters, we have not not considered further complication of the model here, as a minimal model allows to distinguish the main processes that occur. Nevertheless, introducing more precisely activity, in the nematic approach already achieved for the friction, is a natural continuation of our work: See the new Section III-4, where we introduce the nematic order, and we indicate that active nematic stresses can be written from it.

      Next, I don’t understand the assumption that T cells do not proliferate once they detect neoantigens on the cancer cells; activation of T cells usually causes them to become more proliferative.

      We thank the referee for this question. The T-cell fraction has two origins: proliferation of T-cells in situ in the stroma or inside tumor nest or external arrival from the sources that we privilege. We recognize that a full analysis of the tumor-microenvironment would require to consider proliferation near the tumor, as many more other processes which is do able but requires the knowledge of more biological date. In addition, besides, the proliferation of T-cells will be equivalent to increase the killing abilities of T-cells and these two effect overlapp in our approach.

      In order to clarify this point, we modify the following sentence in Section II.2:

      “Although proliferation of cytotoxic T-cells has been observed, we do not consider explicitly proliferation in our study as we focus on their ability to infiltrate the tumor.”

      Rather, we consider that T-cells proliferate outside the domain boundaries, so that this proliferation is included in the boundary source contributions.

      Finally, the issue of whether the density of fibers is sufficient to understand the role of fibroblasts is not at all settled. There should be a full discussion of this issue including mentioning of the Nature paper (cited in the public review) that argues that orientation (and not density) is the key to the role of fibers, as well as the earlier cited work of Kalluri and collaborators on the role of ECM density in pancreatic cancer.

      We thank the referee for this remark. As we wrote above in the response to the public review, we introduced significant additions that aim to tackle this question in the article.

      (2) The authors present a picture of a tumor cell with fibroblasts apparently arrayed circumferentially around the tumor boundary and therefore blocking infiltration. This type of tumor structure has been seen before, for example in ”On the mechanism of long-range orientational order of fibroblasts.” Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 114, no. 34 (2017): 8974-8979, which should be cited. More importantly, in that paper the argument is made that positive feedback between fibroblasts and ECM geometry can cause structures like this to form. If this is indeed what is occurring, this would indicate the crucial importance of a mechanism beyond what is contained in the current model. This issue should therefore be discussed within this paper. This issue is of course connected to the previous point regarding the role of ECM structure beyond density.

      We completely agree that the interplay between the fibroblast layer and the tumor shapes the tumor boundary. One of the authors has worked recently on this precise topic (Aging and freezing of active nematic dynamics of cancer-associated fibroblasts by fibronectin matrix remodeling, C Jacques, J Ackermann, S Bell, C Hallopeau, CP Gonzalez, ... bioRxiv, 2023.11. 22.568216, Ordering, spontaneous flows and aging in active fluids depositing tracks S Bell, J Ackermann, A Maitra, R Voituriez arXiv preprint arXiv:2409.05195). Since the fibroblast layer is an active material, it contributes to an anisotropic stress that can be introduced into the model. Our first strategy was to present the simplest modeling in order to focus on the most important interactions as cell-cell adhesion and cell-tissue adhesion. However, we recognize that those questions should be discussed in the text, and we discuss it in the new section III-4

      Minor points

      There are also a number of more minor points to consider:

      (1) Since the parameter is taken to be O(1), why exactly does it matter how the other parameters scale with it?

      It is very important to compare the order of magnitude of the other parameters once the selected parameter of order O(1) is really the driving parameter of the coupling. It gives a first picture of the main interactions that has to consider.

      (2) I didn’t understand the relevance of referring specifically to IL 6 among many other possibly relevant signals, as is currently done on page 7.

      This corresponds to studies aiming to correlate lung cancer risks and the concentration of interleukin, mostly IL6 and IL8 (McKeown, D. J., et al. ”The relationship between circulating concentrations of C-reactive protein, inflammatory cytokines and cytokine receptors in patients with non-small-cell lung cancer.” British journal of cancer 91.12 (2004): 1993-1995.,Brenner, Darren R., et al. ”Inflammatory cytokines and lung cancer risk in 3 prospective studies.” American journal of epidemiology 185.2 (2017): 86-95. ) but in the absence of very detailed biological information, the modeling and its results are not modified if other chemicals intervene..We slightly modeified the following phrase in section I.1:

      “In particular, in the family of inflammatory proteins, also called cytokines, Interlukin-6 (IL6) and (IL8) seem, among others to stimulate the infiltration of CD8<sup>+</sup>.

      (3) The authors need to mention the possibility of T-cell chemotaxis to the tumor being ”self-amplified” in the T cell system, as put forth in Galeano Nin˜o, Jorge Luis, Sophie V. Pageon, Szun S. Tay, Feyza Colakoglu, Daryan Kempe, Jack Hywood, Jessica K. Mazalo et al. ”Cytotoxic T cells swarm by homotypic chemokine signalling.” eLife 9 (2020): e56554. This might again reveal a needed extension of the current modelling strategy.

      We thank the referee for his/her comment on the self-amplification of T-cell population in the stroma and we mention the indicated reference in our paper. This auto-chemoatactic process which induces a dynamic of more e cient recruitment towards the tumor, may be important for immunotherapy. To have more e cient T-cell arriving at the site of the tumor, will lead a better issue for the patient, if the swarming organization is maintained in a desmoplastic nematic stroma.

      (4) It is not obvious to me that in sub figures 3F and 3H the tumor is enroute to being totally eradicated, as is stated in the text. The blue lines seemed to asymptote at non-zero population values.

      Looking at sub-figures 3F and 3H, we stated in the main text that the tumor is eradicated as the representative population approaches a 0 value fraction, or at least decays around the 0 (0.01/0.05 to be more precise). This is even more evident when compared with the other cases where the tumor mass fraction reaches values of a higher order (up to 0.6), thus leading us to dinstinguish between these different scenarios.

      (5) The description of the interaction of cells with fibers as being increased friction might be misleading, as the real effect could be actual trapping in the network (as opposed to just slowing down the motion).

      We thank the referee for this question as it allow us to make an important distinction. Indeed, what the referee describes seems to correspond to a discrete event, namely a cell trapped in a network. However, coarse-graining the dynamics to the continuous modeling seems to us as leading to an effective friction between the two phases. Moreover, we also now introduced an anisotropic friction which can represent a trapping. The velocities are not only directed around the tumor but can also be oriented towards the tumor, so that eventually the friction along the radius mimics a trapping (see Fig.4 on top). We have introduced this anisotropic friction via a nematic model, see the appendix.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Authors showed the presence of Mtb in human liver biopsy samples of TB patient and reported that chronic infection of Mtb causes immune-metabolic dysregulation. Authors showed that Mtb replicates in hepatocytes in a lipid rich environment created by up regulating transcription factor PPARγ. Authors also reported that Mtb protects itself from anti-TB drugs by inducing drug metabolising enzymes.

      Strengths:

      It has been shown that Mtb induces storage of triacylglycerol in macrophages by induction of WNT6/ACC2 which helps in its replication and intracellular survival, however, creation of favorable replicative niche in hepatocytes by Mtb is not reported. It is known that Mtb infect macrophages and induces formation of lipid-laden foamy macrophages which eventually causes tissue destruction in TB patient. In a recent article it has been reported that "A terpene nucleoside from M. tuberculosis induces lysosomal lipid storage in foamy macrophages" that shows how Mtb manipulates host defense mechanisms for its survival. In this manuscript, authors reported the enhancement of lipid droplets in Mtb infected hepatocytes and convincingly showed that fatty acid synthesis and triacylglycerol formation is important for growth of Mtb in hepatocytes. Authors also showed the molecular mechanism for accumulation of lipid and showed that the transcription factor associated with lipid biogenesis, PPARγ and adipogenic genes were upregulated in Mtb infected cells.

      The comparison of gene expression data between macrophages and hepatocytes by authors is important which indicates that Mtb modulates different pathways in different cell type as in macrophages it is related to immune response whereas, in hepatocytes it is related to metabolic pathways.

      Authors also reported that Mtb residing in hepatocytes showed drug tolerance phenotype due to up regulation of enzymes involved in drug metabolism and showed that cytochrome P450 monooxygenase that metabolize rifampicin and NAT2 gene responsible for N-acetylation of isoniazid were up regulated in Mtb infected cells.

      Weaknesses:

      There are reports of hepatic tuberculosis in pulmonary TB patients especially in immune-compromised patients, therefore finding granuloma in human liver biopsy samples is not surprising.

      Mtb infected hepatic cells showed induced DME and NAT and this could lead to enhanced metabolism of drug by hepatic cells as a result Mtb in side HepG2 cells get exposed to reduced drug concentration and show higher tolerance to drug. Authors mentioned that " hepatocyte resident Mtb may display higher tolerance to rifampicin". In my opinion higher tolerance to drug is possible only when DME of Mtb inside is up regulated or target is modified. Although, in the end authors mentioned that drug tolerance phenotype can be better attributed to host intrinsic factors rather than Mtb efflux pumps. It may be better if Drug tolerant phenotype section can be rewritten to clarify the facts.

      In the revised manuscript, by immune-staining authors convincingly showed that hepatocytes are a favourable niche for replication of MTb.

      Authors have rewritten the drug tolerant phenotype section which reads better.

      Overall, this paper has new and important information on how MTb establishes a favourable niche for growth in hepatocytes and creates a drug tolerant environment.

      We thank the reviewer for the through and insightful review.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      The manuscript by Sarkar et al has demonstrated the infection of liver cells/hepatocytes with Mtb and the significance of liver cells in the replication of Mtb by reprogramming lipid metabolism during tuberculosis. Besides, the present study shows that similar to Mtb infection of macrophages (reviewed in Chen et al., 2024; Toobian et al., 2021), Mtb infects liver cells but with a greater multiplication owing to consumption of enhanced lipid resources mediated by PPARg that could be cleared by its inhibitors. The strength of the study lies in clinical evaluation of the presence of Mtb in human autopsied liver samples from individuals with miliary tuberculosis and presence of a clear granuloma-like structure. The interesting observation is of granuloma-like structure in liver which prompts further investigations in the field.

      The modulation of lipid synthesis during Mtb infection, such as PPARg upregulation, appears generic to different cell types including both liver cells and macrophage cells. It is also known that infection affect PPARγ expression and activity in hepatocytes. It is also known that this can lead to lipid droplet accumulation in the liver and the development of fatty liver disease (as shown for HCV). This study is in similar line for M.tb infection. As liver is the main site for lipid regulation, the availability of lipid resources is greater and higher is the replication rate. In short, the observations from the study confirm the earlier studies with these additional cell types. It is known that higher the lipid content, greater are Lipid Droplet-positive Mtb and higher is the drug resistance (Mekonnen et al., 2021). The DMEs of liver cells add further to the phenotype.

      Comments on revised version:

      The authors noted that even in experiments where mice were infected with lower CFUs, the presence of Mtb colonies could still be detected in the liver. It would be beneficial to include some experimental data related to this in the supplementary information, as it could provide valuable insights for the research field.

      We thank the reviewer for the in depth evaluation of our manuscript and as suggested we will include the data where Mtb was detected in the liver at low CFUs

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      In this revised manuscript, the authors explore how Mtb can infect hepatocytes and create a favorable niche associated with upregulation of the transcription factor PPARγ which presumably allows the bacteria to scavenge lipids from lipid droplets in host cells and upregulate drug-metabolizing enzymes to protect against its elimination. In response to the review, the authors have performed some additional immunostaining of hepatocytes, added more detail to figure legends, added experiments somewhat showing improved colocalization and staining, clarified several points and paragraphs, and updated the referenced literature and discussion.

      The current manuscript provides evidence that human miliary TB patients have infection of hepatocytes with Mtb, with evidence that the bacteria survive at least partially through upregulation of PPARγ, which significantly changes the lipid milieu of the cells. There is also an examination of transcriptomics and lipid metabolism in response to Mtb infection, as well as drug tolerance of Mtb inside hepatocytes. The current manuscript is an improvement over the previous one.

      However, although the manuscript is improved, tissue immunophenotyping of the various cells in the liver remains weak and unconvincing. This is truly a missed opportunity and lessens the rigor of the central findings and conclusions. As pointed out by another reviewer, literature has described different fates of Mtb in the liver. Given the tissue available to the authors, carefully dissecting the various cells that the bacteria are in (esp. hepatocytes versus Kupffer cells) is critical. The authors use only 2 generic markers and do not distinguish among cell types within the tissue slices. A review of the literature shows a variety of both human and mouse antibody markers. In fact, a liver atlas based on immunophenotyping has been published. Likewise, the authors comment on liver granulomas, but this is not justified without immunophenotyping.

      We would like to thank the reviewer for the in-depth and detailed suggestions. We would like to clarify that the primary aim of our study was to determine the localization of Mtb within hepatocytes and the downstream biological consequences. To this end, we employed two well-established and widely validated markers (ASPGR 1 and albumin) that are consistently used to identify hepatocytes in both human and murine liver tissue. While we acknowledge the broader potential of comprehensive immunophenotyping, our focused approach was designed to specifically address the question of hepatocyte involvement, which the selected markers effectively support, which was further reiterated by the Reviewer 1.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      In my opinion this paper contains important information and no further information is required for this manuscript.

      We thank the reviewer for the insightful comments

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The authors noted that even in experiments where mice were infected with lower CFUs, the presence of Mtb colonies could still be detected in the liver. It would be beneficial to include some experimental data related to this in the supplementary information, as it could provide valuable insights for the research field.

      As suggested,  we will include the data with the low CFUs in the updated manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      • Line 340, the fact that PPARγ inhibition decreases bacterial load should not be surprising, as the authors cite several papers where this is already shown.

      • Line 379, the increased tolerance of Mtb to drugs in hepatocytes is only significant at the lower 2 concentrations, not at 5 ug/mL.

      • Fig S4F-H, the y axis is inappropriately not set to zero on the lower limit.

      • Fig S9B, the Y-axis states "relative" CFU, but there is no indication what the bars are normalized to, and the numbers are much more typical of standard CFU values. Was the "Relative" part left in by mistake?

      • Double check the ending of the figure legend for Figure S10 and S11.

      • Line 352, phenomenom [sic] is misspelled.

      • On re-read, several sentences throughout this manuscript need improvement regarding structure and grammar. I suggest careful editorial review.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out the issues and these will be carefully modified in the next version.


      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors showed the presence of Mtb in human liver biopsy samples of TB patients and reported that chronic infection of Mtb causes immune-metabolic dysregulation. Authors showed that Mtb replicates in hepatocytes in a lipid rich environment created by up regulating transcription factor PPARγ. Authors also reported that Mtb protects itself from anti-TB drugs by inducing drug metabolising enzymes.

      Strengths:

      It has been shown that Mtb induces storage of triacylglycerol in macrophages by induction of WNT6/ACC2 which helps in its replication and intracellular survival, however, creation of favorable replicative niche in hepatocytes by Mtb is not reported. It is known that Mtb infects macrophages and induces formation of lipid-laden foamy macrophages which eventually causes tissue destruction in TB patients. In a recent article it has been reported that "A terpene nucleoside from M. tuberculosis induces lysosomal lipid storage in foamy macrophages" that shows how Mtb manipulates host defense mechanisms for its survival. In this manuscript, authors reported the enhancement of lipid droplets in Mtb infected hepatocytes and convincingly showed that fatty acid synthesis and triacylglycerol formation is important for growth of Mtb in hepatocytes. The authors also showed the molecular mechanism for accumulation of lipid and showed that the transcription factor associated with lipid biogenesis, PPARγ and adipogenic genes were upregulated in Mtb infected cells.

      The comparison of gene expression data between macrophages and hepatocytes by authors is important which indicates that Mtb modulates different pathways in different cell type as in macrophages it is related to immune response whereas, in hepatocytes it is related to metabolic pathways.

      Authors also reported that Mtb residing in hepatocytes showed drug tolerance phenotype due to up regulation of enzymes involved in drug metabolism and showed that cytochrome P450 monooxygenase that metabolize rifampicin and NAT2 gene responsible for N-acetylation of isoniazid were up regulated in Mtb infected cells.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive feedback and for highlighting the strengths of our study.

      Weaknesses:

      There are reports of hepatic tuberculosis in pulmonary TB patients especially in immune-compromised patients, therefore finding granuloma in human liver biopsy samples is not surprising.

      Mtb infected hepatic cells showed induced DME and NAT and this could lead to enhanced metabolism of drug by hepatic cells as a result Mtb in side HepG2 cells get exposed to reduced drug concentration and show higher tolerance to drug. The authors mentioned that " hepatocyte resident Mtb may display higher tolerance to rifampicin". In my opinion higher tolerance to drugs is possible only when DME of Mtb inside is up regulated or the target is modified. Although, in the end authors mentioned that drug tolerance phenotype can be better attributed to host intrinsic factors rather than Mtb efflux pumps. It may be better if the Drug tolerant phenotype section can be rewritten to clarify the facts.

      We agree that several case studies regarding liver infection in pulmonary TB patients have been reported in the literature, however this report is the first comprehensive study that establishes hepatocytes to be a favourable niche for Mtb survival and growth.

      Drug tolerance is a phenomenon that is exhibited by the bacteria and during hostpathogen interactions, can be influenced by both intrinsic (bacterial) and extrinsic (host-mediated) factors. Multiple examples of tolerance being attributed to host driven factors can be found in literature (PMID 32546788, PMID: 28659799, PMID: 32846197). Our studies demonstrate that Mtb infected hepatocytes create a drug tolerant environment by modulating the expression of Drug modifying enzymes (DMEs) in the hepatocytes.

      As suggested by the reviewer we will rewrite the drug tolerant phenotype section.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      The manuscript by Sarkar et al has demonstrated the infection of liver cells/hepatocytes with Mtb and the significance of liver cells in the replication of Mtb by reprogramming lipid metabolism during tuberculosis. Besides, the present study shows that similar to Mtb infection of macrophages (reviewed in Chen et al., 2024; Toobian et al., 2021), Mtb infects liver cells but with a greater multiplication owing to consumption of enhanced lipid resources mediated by PPARg that could be cleared by its inhibitors. The strength of the study lies in the clinical evaluation of the presence of Mtb in human autopsied liver samples from individuals with miliary tuberculosis and the presence of a clear granuloma-like structure. The interesting observation is of granuloma-like structure in liver which prompts further investigations in the field.

      The modulation of lipid synthesis during Mtb infection, such as PPARg upregulation, appears generic to different cell types including both liver cells and macrophage cells. It is also known that infection affect PPARγ expression and activity in hepatocytes. It is also known that this can lead to lipid droplet accumulation in the liver and the development of fatty liver disease (as shown for HCV). This study is in a similar line for M.tb infection. As the liver is the main site for lipid regulation, the availability of lipid resources is greater and higher is the replication rate. In short, the observations from the study confirm the earlier studies with these additional cell types. It is known that higher the lipid content, the greater are Lipid Droplet-positive Mtb and higher is the drug resistance (Mekonnen et al., 2021). The DMEs of liver cells add further to the phenotype.

      We thank the reviewer for emphasizing on the strengths of our study and how it can lead to further investigations in the field.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      This manuscript by Sarkar et al. examines the infection of the liver and hepatocytes during M. tuberculosis infection. They demonstrate that aerosol infection of mice and guinea pigs leads to appreciable infection of the liver as well as the lung. Transcriptomic analysis of HepG2 cells showed differential regulation of metabolic pathways including fatty acid metabolic processing. Hepatocyte infection is assisted by fatty acid synthesis in the liver and inhibiting this caused reduced Mtb growth. The nuclear receptor PPARg was upregulated by Mtb infection and inhibition or agonism of its activity caused a reduction or increase in Mtb growth, respectively, supporting data published elsewhere about the role of PPARg in lung macrophage Mtb infection. Finally, the authors show that Mtb infection of hepatocytes can cause upregulation of enzymes that metabolize antibiotics, resulting in increased tolerance of these drugs by Mtb in the liver.

      Overall, this is an interesting paper on an area of TB research where we lack understanding. However, some additions to the experiments and figures are needed to improve the rigor of the paper and further support the findings. Most importantly, although the authors show that Mtb can infect hepatocytes in vitro, they fail to describe how bacteria get from the lungs to the liver in an aerosolized infection. They also claim that "PPARg activation resulting in lipid droplets formation by Mtb might be a mechanism of prolonging survival within hepatocytes" but do not show a direct interaction between PPARg activation and lipid droplet formation and lipid metabolism, only that PPARg promotes Mtb growth. Thus, the correlations with PPARg appear to be there but causation, implied in the abstract and discussion, is not proven.

      The human photomicrographs are important and overall, well done (lung and liver from the same individuals is excellent). However, in lines 120-121, the authors comment on the absence of studies on the precise involvement of different cells in the liver. In this study there is no attempt to immunophenotype the nature of the cells harboring Mtb in these samples (esp. hepatocytes). Proving that hepatocytes specifically harbor the bacteria in these human samples would add significant rigor to the conclusions made.

      We thank the reviewer for nicely summarizing our manuscript.

      Our study establishes the involvement of liver and hepatocytes in pulmonary TB infection in mice. Understanding the mechanism of bacterial dissemination from the lung to the liver in aerosol infections demands a detailed separate study.

      Figure 6E and 6F shows how PPARγ agonist and antagonist modulate (increase and decrease respectively) bacterial growth in hepatocytes (further supported by the CFU data in Supplementary Figure 9B). Again, the number of lipid droplets in hepatocytes increase and decrease with the treatment of PPARγ agonist and antagonist respectively as shown in Figure 6G and 6H. Collectively, these studies provide strong evidence that PPARγ activation leads to more lipid droplets that support better Mtb growth.

      We thank the reviewer for finding our human photomicrographs convincing. In the manuscript, we provide evidence for the direct involvement of the hepatocytes (and liver) in Mtb infection. We have performed detailed immunophenotyping of hepatocyte cells in the mice model with ASPGR1 (asialoglycoprotein receptor 1) and in the revised version of record, we have further stained the infected hepatocytes with anti-albumin antibody.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      In my opinion drug tolerant phenotype section should be rewritten for better clarification. The manuscript contains important information about hepatic tuberculosis which are not reported yet.

      We have rewritten the drug tolerant phenotype section for better clarity.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comments regarding important information about hepatic tuberculosis

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The following are some observations and comments on the manuscript.

      (1) The study delves into the mechanisms related to hepatic TB/miliary TB; however, the introduction and discussion only describe and discuss the data in the context of pulmonary TB giving a sense that the mandate of the MS is the exploration of the role of liver cells in pulmonary TB. There appears a gap in the connection of findings from the Miliary TB to the pulmonary TB. A discussion of the conversion of pulmonary TB to extrapulmonary /hepatic TB in the light of the findings may be helpful.

      We have modified the discussion section to include possible mechanisms that convert pulmonary TB to hepatic TB in the light of findings. Briefly, Pulmonary tuberculosis (TB) can lead to miliary TB probably through hematogenous dissemination, where Mtb spreads from the infected lungs into blood vessels either from a primary lung focus, reactivated TB or caseous necrosis.  Once in blood vessels, the bacteria seed multiple organs, forming tiny granulomas, characteristic of miliary TB. The liver involvement could be either through direct hematogenous spread or extrusion from nearby infected lymph nodes, leading to hepatic TB, which presents with granulomas and liver dysfunction. This spread underscores the severity of untreated pulmonary TB and the need for early intervention. Our in vivo infection data clearly shows that pulmonary infection of Mtb in mice and guinea pigs can steadily leads to significant infection of the liver and metabolic abnormalities in the liver. The study further highlights the need for systemic studies to better understand the route and mode of dissemination from lungs to liver for better pathophysiological understanding of the disease and creating new therapeutic targets.  

      (2) The authors show the presence of Mtb in the liver autopsies of miliary tuberculosis patients. It is well known that Mtb disseminates during the late stages to several organs and liver is a major site (Sharma et al. 2005; 10.1016/S1473-3099(05)70163-8). Other clinical observations also point to the fact that although Mtb infects liver cells, it is cleared (Thandi et al., 2018, https://doi.org/10.4049/jimmunol.200.Supp.173.20). As the samples are from miliary TB, it is expected that the bacterial load must have been very high before spreading to blood. It is known that once in blood, M.tb is expected to spread to various organs, especially highly vascular ones. Were any other tissues (especially with high vasculature) stained and verified? If yes, add to the supplementary data or discuss.

      Other tissues were not collected and stained during this study. Studies are currently underway to understand whether other vasculated organs also harbour Mtb or not. Besides several studies have shown that Mtb can infect a wide range of organs like brain, kidney, bone marrow, etc (PMID: 33142108, PMID: 28046053, PMID: 34269789) during miliary conditions.

      (3) It is not evident from this paper if hepatic infiltration occurs in pulmonary TB patients? It may therefore be important to discuss the status of liver infections in the primary pulmonary infection.

      Based on the available data from human biopsied liver samples, there is an indication of liver involvement in systemic tuberculosis (TB). However, to gain a more comprehensive understanding of hepatic infiltration in pulmonary TB patients, it is essential to conduct well-organized clinical studies. These studies should specifically target pulmonary TB patients and explore the extent and nature of liver involvement in these individuals (discussion). As suggested by the reviewer it is in the discussion

      (4) Similarly, in the mice model, M.tb was shown to localize to liver when aerosolic infection was given. Were any other tissues, such as kidney, bone marrow etc, checked? Is it because of the high dose of M.tb against the standard challenge dose of 50-100 CFU? Further, since the study in the mouse model is to mimic a miliary tuberculosis of liver, did the dissemination occur via bloodstream and if mycobacteremia could be observed in infected mice.

      Currently studies are underway to understand the involvement of other organs like kidney, brain, bone marrow, in aerosol infection mice model and how dissemination occurs in those distant organs.

      The focus of the current study was to understand the role of liver in systemic tuberculosis with emphasis on hepatocytes as a key cell type to be infected. We have also conducted the experiments with lower CFUs and could detect the presence of Mtb colonies in liver, so we do not think that the infection of liver is dependent on the dose of infection.

      (5) There are studies in mouse model which infer that liver carried the lowest bacterial burden, was cleared the fastest, and it is established that as compared to sites persistently seeded by M. tuberculosis, in the liver the bacteria rarely infect cell types other than professional phagocytes. As the observations in this study are contrasting, the discussion section should include a critical comparative analysis to justify why in the conditions used in the study, the hepatocytes and not Kupffer cells are infected. Other than the morphological description to indicate M.tb infection of hepatocytes in the liver section (fig 1E), it will be good to show localization of M.tb specifically to hepatocytes by using hepatocyte specific marker. Unlike as reported, why was a clearance of M.tb not observed even after 10 weeks (figure 2B).

      While some studies show that Mtb from the liver is cleared fast but there are several other studies that report Liver harbours Mtb even after 10 weeks postinfection (PMID: 22359543, PMID: 21533158, PMID: 29242198). We have consistently observed Mtb infection of liver post week 10 in our infection model. 

      We have performed detailed immunophenotyping of hepatocyte cells in the mice model with ASPGR1 (asialoglycoprotein receptor 1) and in the revised version of record, we have further stained the isolated hepatocytes with anti-albumin antibody (albumin is a robust marker of hepatocyte identity) and have showed the presence of Mtb in it. The data has been included in the revised manuscript (Fig 2J)

      (6) While the result section mentions that "individuals with miliary tuberculosis' (line 107), the legend of Figure 1 writes 'Presence of Mtb in human pulmonary tuberculosis patients'. This is confusing. Clarify

      We thank the reviewer for pointing it out, we have changed the figure legends to miliary tuberculosis as most of the liver biopsy samples were obtained from military tuberculosis patients. 

      (7) Supplementary Figure 2D: Corresponding control panel (uninfected) should be added, which will also verify the specificity of Ag85b. As it is known that Ag85B is secreted out from the bacteria and hence the detected signals may not confirm that Mtb is in hepatocytes. Ag85B per bacterium decreases by almost 10,000-fold at later stages of infection because of secretion (Ernst JD, Cornelius A, et al 2019 mBio). In Supl figure 2D, Ag85b signal seems to be present everywhere inside the cells. Hence, it is important that the control panel be added.

      We have included a control image below which shows no staining of Ag85B in the uninfected sample.While we acknowledge with the reviewer’s comment, but Ag85B has been consistently used as a marker for Mtb presence in multiple studies. Nargan et al., uses Ag85B based staining to characterize infection both pulmonary and EPTB samples (PMID: 38880068). Jain et al., uses Ag85B to characterize Mtb infection of Mesenchymal stem cell in lung biopsy samples of pulmonary TB patients (PMID: 32546788)

      Author response image 1.

      Ag85B staining in uninfected mice shows no signals

      (8) The kinetics experiments in Figure 3D-3G should have used time laps microscopy of a few of the infected cells or it should be represented in CFU. If we consider the doubling time of H37Rv is about 22h to 24h, the data showing that MFI increases dramatically from 5 HPI to 120 HPI, gives an impression that the bacterial number inside the cells increased more than its doubling time.

      We have added the modified plot. As suggested, the CFU of Mtb within HepG2, PHCs, THP-1, RAW 264.7 and BMDMs have been included in the revised version (Supplementary Figure 4 D-H)

      (9) What is the effect of C45 and T863 on Mtb growth invitro? The effect of C45 and T863 on Mtb growth invitro should be shown to be ruled out. The representative image in Figure 5F is DMSO or C45 treated cells panel? Please specify it.

      As per the reviewer’s suggestion we have seen the effect of C45 (30 µM) and T863 (25 µM) on Mtb growth in vitro and did not find any difference in the growth kinetics. The representative image in Figure 5F is DMSO treated cells.

      Author response image 2.

      Growth kinetics of Mtb in 7H9 medium with DMSO, C75 and T863

      (10) Supplementary Figure 6B: Correct the Y-axis label from mRNA levels to Fold change (normalised to control). Please do similar changes wherever required.

      We have made the necessary changes as per the suggestion of the reviewer.

      (11) Figure 7B and 7C: How was the normalization performed? Is the data normalized to the number of bacteria that entered the specific cell type or was normalized at 48hrs with respect to DMSO? DMSO alone data should be shown.

      In the drug tolerance assays, we have calculated the ratio of the bacterial burden in hepatocytes treated with drugs compared to hepatocytes treated with DMSO. The infection was given for 48 hours post which the infected cells were treated with the mentioned concentrations of isoniazid and rifampicin for 24 hours. CFU enumeration was conducted after this 24 hour. Figure 7A gives a schematic of the experimental set up.

      % Tolerant Bacterial population= [A/B X 100] % where A is the CFU of Mtb from infected hepatocytes treated with drug and B is the CFU of Mtb infected cells treated with DMSO.Thus the effect of MOI is negated.

      To provide further credence to the CFU data, we have analysed these studies using microscopic studies as well, where no cell death was observed under the conditions. Mouse BMDMs were as a macrophage control. We have calculated the % tolerance as ratio by measuring the mean fluorescent intensity of GFP-Mtb per hepatocyte treated with drug to MFI of GFP-Mtb per hepatocyte treated with DMSO (control). More than 20 fields, each consisting of more than 4 infected cells have been used for analysis providing additional evidence of less killing of Mtb in hepatocytes compared to BMDMs with anti-TB drugs. All these details are included in the manuscript.

      (12) While authors have shown the changes in mRNA levels of CYP3A4, CYP3A43, NAT2, the protein or activities of some of these should be measured to verify the effect.

      Currently studies are underway to understand the activities of the key proteins involved in isoniazid and rifampicin metabolism and will be published as a separate manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Additional comments are:

      • Figure 2D, the 20X and 40X magnifications do not look appreciably different in size. Please double-check that the correct images were used.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing it out, we havecorrected it in the revised version.

      • Lines 162-164: The authors state almost 100% purity. However, the contour plot in 2F appears to show 2 cell populations. Figure 2G is missing a legend of which colors correspond to which staining (and again there appears to be highly variable staining).

      We agree with the reviewer that there are two contours observed in Figure 2F. Although both the contours are positive for ASPGR1 protein, but the level of expression of the ASPGR1 protein is variable. The corresponding confocal image (Nucleus stained by DAPI and ASPGR1 stained with ASPGR1 antibody with Alexa fluor 555 conjugated secondary antibody) also indicates a variable staining of isolated primary hepatocytes, where some cells give a stronger intensity signal than the other cells, further visually confirming our statement. Moreover, several studies show differential expression of ASPGR1 protein in hepatocyte like cells (PMID: 27143754)

      To further clarify and be more specific with respect to the identity of the hepatocytes, we have stained primary hepatocytes from infected mouse livers with Albumin antibody (a stable marker for hepatocytes) and Ag85B (2J)

      Multiple figures throughout the manuscript, including this one, would benefit from the use of arrows to depict what is described in the legend and text more clearly, and the use of higher power insets to better define cell architecture. Finally, some images appear blurry to the eye. Improvements are needed throughout.

      As per the suggestion, we have modified the figures and figure legends for better clarity.

      • Lines 153-155. Albumin, AST and GGT appear to be significantly up at week 8, contradicting the statement that there is no change until week 10.

      We thank the reviewer for poiting it out and  have made suitable changes in the write up

      • Lines 203-205: The authors state earlier that bacteria survive in macrophage phagosomes. Do the authors know the niche for bacteria in hepatocytes that enable them to continue to grow? Transcriptome data from HepG2 cells suggest perhaps a phagosomal pathway?

      We thank the reviewer for this insightful question. As rightly pointed out by the reviewer, transcription data indeed suggests changes in several important pathways like macroautophagy, golgi vesicular transport and vacuolar transport, which can affect the subcellular localisation of Mtb within hepatocytes. High resolution microscopic studies with respect to the subcellular localisation of labelled Mtb within Primary hepatocytes, HepG2 and THP-1 has been conducted and the % colocalization within different intra-cellular compartments have been measured. The image of colocalization of labelled Mtb within PHCs is shown below along with the % colocalization within various compartments in PHCs, HepG2 and THP-1 is added. 

      Author response image 3.

      Colocalisation of Mtb-GFP with various intra-cellular markers within PHCs.

      Author response image 4.

      Percentage Colocalisation of Mtb-GFP with various intra-cellular markers within PHCs, HepG2 and THP-1.

      • Validation of some critical genes found in the HepG2 cells should be done by qRTPCR in primary hepatocytes.

      qRT-PCR analysis of some of the key genes in HepG2 have been validated in primary hepatocytes at 24 hours post infection. Majority of the genes show a similar trend.

      Author response image 5.

      Gene expression analysis of the mentioned genes in Mtb infected PHCs as compared to the uninfected control.

      • Lines 259-260: The authors state a high degree of co-localization. The photomicrograph of a single cell in Fig. 5D is not convincing. I'm not even sure that they are really in the same subcellular compartment. Co-localization stated in Fig. S8B is also not convincing as shown.

      The image currently shown in figure 3D is a maximum intensity projection image of multiple z-stacks encompassing the entire cell.

      We agree with the reviewer with respect to figure Fig S8B and will modify the text and the figure legend accordingly.

      Copywriting edits:

      • It is difficult to see individual gene names in Figures 4D and 4E. A higher resolution or larger font would be appreciated for the reader.

      An excel file with the top differentially regulated genes at both 0 hours post infection and 48 hours post infection has been added.

      • Figure 5A has a shadow on the top right image.

      We have changed the image in the revised manuscript

      • Figure 5E is difficult to read the labels on the axes; it would be better in general to make the labels separately instead of relying on the graphing software, since these labels can get stretched when the size of the graph is modified.

      We agree with the reviewer and have made necessary changes.

      • Line 163: should be "percent" and not "perfect."

      We thank the reviewer for pointing it out and have corrected it

      • Line 190: is missing a period at the end of the sentence "...for further experiments"

      We thank the reviewer for pointing it out and have corrected it

      • Line 332: should be "hepatocytes" instead of "hepatoctyte" [sic]

      We thank the reviewer for pointing it out and have corrected it

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Li et al investigated how adjuvants such as MPLA and CpG influence antigen presentation at the level of the Antigen-presenting cell and MHCII : peptide interaction. They found that the use of MPLA or CpG influences the exogenous peptide repertoire presented by MHC II molecules. Additionally, their observations included the finding that peptides with low-stability peptide:MHC interactions yielded more robust CD4+ T cell responses in mice. These phenomena were illustrated specifically for 2 pattern recognition receptor activating adjuvants. This work represents a step forward for how adjuvants program CD4+ Th responses and provides further evidence regarding the expected mechanisms of PRR adjuvants in enhancing CD4+ T cell responses in the setting of vaccination.

      Strengths:

      The authors use a variety of systems to analyze this question. Initial observations were collected in an H pylori model of vaccination with a demonstration of immunodominance differences simply by adjuvant type, followed by analysis of MHC:peptide as well as proteomic analysis with comparison by adjuvant group. Their analysis returns to peptide immunization and analysis of strength of relative CD4+ T cell responses, through calculation of IC:50 values and strength of binding. This is a comprehensive work. The logical sequence of experiments makes sense and follows an unexpected observation through to trying to understand that process further with peptide immunization and its impact on Th responses. This work will premise further studies into the mechanisms of adjuvants on T cells.

      Weaknesses:

      Comment 1. While MDP has a different manner of interaction as an adjuvant compared to CpG and MPLA, it is unclear why MDP has a different impact on peptide presentation and it should be further investigated, or at minimum highlighted in the discussion as an area that requires further investigation.

      Thank you for the suggestion. We investigated the reasons for the different effects of MDP on peptide presentation compared with those of CpG and MPLA. We found that the expression of some proteins involved in antigen processing and presentation, such as CTSS, H2-DM, Ifi30, and CD74, was substantially lower in the MDP-treated group than in the CpG- and MPLA-treated groups. To further confirm whether these proteins play a key role during adjuvant modification of peptide presentation, we knocked down them using shRNA and then performed immunopeptidomics. The original mass spectra and peptide spectrum matches have been deposited in the public proteomics repository iProX (https://www.iprox.cn/page/home.html) under accession number IPX0007611000. Unfortunately, the expected results for peptide presentation repertoires were not observed. Thus, we hypothesized that the different effects of MDP on peptide presentation might not result from differences in protein expression. We cannot exclude the possibility that some other proteins that may be important in this process were overlooked. We are still working on the mechanisms and do not have an exact conclusion. Thus, we did not present related data in this manuscript.

      The related statements were added in the Discussion section on page 13, lines 292–299: “In this study, we found that the peptide repertoires presented by APCs were significantly affected by the adjuvants CpG and MPLA, but not MDP. All three adjuvants belong to the PRR ligand adjuvant family. CpG and MPLA bind to TLRs and MDP is recognized by NOD2. Although the receptors are different, many common molecules are involved both in TLR and NLD pathway activation. Unfortunately, we did not demonstrate why the MDP had different impacts on peptide presentation compared with other adjuvants. Further investigation is required to clarify the mechanism by which MPLA, CpG, and MDP adjuvants modulate the presentation of peptides with different stabilities.”

      Comment 2. It is alluded by the authors that TLR activating adjuvants mediate selective, low affinity, exogenous peptide binding onto MHC class II molecules. However, this was not demonstrated to be related specifically to TLR binding. I wonder if some work with TLR deficient mice (TLR 4KO for example) could evaluate this phenomenon more specifically.

      Thank you for the suggestion. This is an important point that was overlooked in this study. Based on published research on the mechanisms of PRR adjuvants, CpG and MPLA, we believe that the effect of CpG and MPLA on APCs-selective epitope presentation needs to be bound to the corresponding receptor, although we did not give a definitive conclusion in the manuscript.

      To confirm the TLR-activating adjuvants affecting peptides presented on MHC molecules specifically through TLR binding, we have used CRISPR-cas9 to knock out TLR4 and TLR9 of A20 cells and repeated the experiments, as suggested. We chose TLR4- and TLR9- knockout A20 cell lines instead of TLR-deficient mice because a large number of APCs are required for immunopeptidomics. Moreover, the data observed in this study were based on the A20 cell line. However, these experiments are time-consuming. Unfortunately, we were unable to provide timely data. In addition, we believe that elucidating the downstream molecular mechanisms of TLR activation is necessary, as mentioned in comment 1. All these data will be combined and reported in our upcoming publications.

      Comment 3. It is unclear to me if this observation is H pylori model/antigen-specific. It may have been nice to characterize the phenomenon with a different set of antigens as supplemental. Lastly, it is unclear if the peptide immunization experiment reveals a clear pattern related to high and low-stability peptides among the peptides analyzed.

      Q1: It is unclear to me if this observation is H. pylori model/antigen-specific. It may have been nice to characterize the phenomenon with a different set of antigens as supplemental.

      Thank you for the comment. To confirm the effect of the adjuvant on the exogenous peptide repertoire presented by MHC II molecules, a set of antigens from another bacterium, Pseudomonas aeruginosa, was used, and the experiments were repeated. The A20 cells were treated with CpG and pulsed with Pseudomonas aeruginosa antigens. Twelve hours later, MHC-II–peptide complexes were immunoprecipitated, and immunopeptidomics were performed. The data are shown below (Author response image 1). Information on the MHC-peptides from Pseudomonas aeruginosa is given in the Supplementary Table named “Table S3 Response to comment3”. A total of 713 and 205 bacterial peptides were identified in the PBS and CpG groups (Author response image 1A). The number of exogenous peptides in the CpG-treated group was significantly lower than that in the PBS-treated control group (Author response image 1B). A total of 568 bacterial peptides were presented only in the PBS group; 60 bacterial peptides were presented in the CpG-treated group, and 145 bacterial peptides were presented in both groups (Author response image 1C). We then analyzed the MHC-binding stability of the peptides present in the adjuvant-treated group and that of the peptide-deficient after adjuvant stimulation using the IEDB website. We found that the IC50 of the peptides in the adjuvant-treated group were much higher than those of the deficient peptides, which indicated that the peptides presented in the CpG-treated groups have lower binding stability for MHC-II (Author response image 1D). These results indicate that CpG adjuvant affects the presentation of exogenous peptides with high binding stability, which is consistent with the data reported in our manuscript. Using another set of antigens, we confirmed that our observations were not H. pylori model- or antigen-specific.

      Author response image 1.

      MHC-II peptidome measurements in adjuvant-treated APCs pulsed with Pseudomonas aeruginosa antigens. (A) Total number of bacterial peptides identified in the PBS- and CpG-treated groups. (B) The number and length distribution of bacterial peptides in different groups were compared. (C) Venn diagrams showing the distribution of bacterial peptides in different groups. (D) IC50 of the presented, deficient, and co-presented peptides post-adjuvant stimulation from immunopeptidome binding to H2-IA and H2-IE were predicted using the IEDB website. High IC50 means low binding stability. *p<0.05, **p<0.01.

      Q2: Lastly, it is unclear if the peptide immunization experiment reveals a clear pattern related to high and low-stability peptides among the peptides analyzed.

      In this study, we used a peptide immunization experiment to evaluate the responses induced by the screened peptides with different stabilities. In addition to this method, tetramer staining and ELISA have been used to assess epitope-specific T-cell proliferation and cytokine secretion. Among these, tetramer staining is often used in studies involving model antigens. However, as many peptides were screened in our study, synthesizing a sufficient number of tetramers was difficult. However, we believe that the experimental data obtained in this study support the conclusion. Nevertheless, we agree that more methods applied will make the pattern more clearly.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Adjuvants boost antigen-specific immune responses to vaccines. However, whether adjuvants modulate the epitope immunodominance and the mechanisms involved in adjuvant's effect on antigen processing and presentation are not fully characterized. In this manuscript, Li et al report that immunodominant epitopes recognized by antigen-specific T cells are altered by adjuvants.

      Using MPLA, CpG, and MDP adjuvants and H. pylori antigens, the authors screened the dominant epitopes of Th1 responses in mice post-vaccination with different adjuvants and found that adjuvants altered antigen-specific CD4+ T cell immunodominant epitope hierarchy. They show that adjuvants, MPLA and CpG especially, modulate the peptide repertoires presented on the surface of APCs. Surprisingly, adjuvant favored the presentation of low-stability peptides rather than high-stability peptides by APCs. As a result, the low stability peptide presented in adjuvant groups elicits T cell response effectively.

      Thanks a lot for your comments.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Recommendation 1. Figure 6: The peptides considered low affinity- it would be helpful to specify from which adjuvant they were collected from. When they are pooled it is unclear if we are analyzing peptides collected from adjuvanting with any of the three adjuvants studied.

      Thank you for the suggestion. The related description in Figure 6 has been modified in the revised manuscript. Data for the peptides identified from the adjuvants MPLA- and CpG-treated groups are shown separately.

      Recommendation 2. It is unclear to me why the A20 cell line is less preferred to the J774 line for the immunopeptidome analysis - can the authors expand on this?

      We apologize for not clearly explaining this in the original manuscript. In fact, the A20 cell line is better than J774A.1 cell line for immunopeptidomics experiments. Compared to J774A.1 cells, more MHC-II peptides were obtained from a smaller number of A20 cells using immunopeptidomics. At the beginning of this study, we chose the J774A.1 cell line as it is a macrophage cell line. J774A.1 cells (up to 5×108) were pulsed with the antigens, and MHC-II–peptide complexes were eluted from the cell surface for immunopeptidomics. Unfortunately, only a few hundred peptides from the host were detected and no exogenous peptides were detected. Next, we tested the A20 cell line. In total, 108 A20 cells were used in this study. More than 3500 host peptides and approximately 50 exogenous peptides have been identified. These data indicate that the A20 cell line was better.

      To investigate the reasons for this, we detected MHC-II expression on cell surfaces using FACS. Our purpose was to elute peptides from MHC–peptide complexes present on the cell surface. Low MHC expression resulted in the elution of a few peptides. We found the MFI of MHC-II molecules on J774A.1 cell is about 500; however, the MFI of MHC-II molecules on A20 cells is more than 300,000. These data indicate that MHC-II expression on A20 cells was much higher than that on J774A.1 cells. J774A.1 cell is a macrophage cell line. Macrophages have excellent antigen phagocytic capabilities; however, their ability to present antigens is relatively weak. MHC molecules on the macrophage cell surface can be upregulated in the stimulation of some cytokines, for example, IFN-γ. In this study, we used adjuvants as stimulators and did not want to use additional cytokine stimulators. Thus, J774A.1 cells were not used in the present study.

      The related statements are reflected on page 6 lines 120–128 “We also selected another H-2d cell J774A.1, a macrophage cell line, for immunopeptidome analysis in this study. Briefly, 5×108 J774A.1 cells were used for immunopeptidomics. Moreover, fewer than 350 peptides were observed at a peptide spectrum match (PSM) level of < 1.0% false discovery rate (FDR). However, more than 5500 peptides were detected in 108 A20 cells at FDR < 1.0% (Figure S2A). CD86 and MHC-II molecule expression on J774A.1 cells was substantially lower than that on A20 cells (Figure S2B). Low MHC-II expression on J774A.1 cells could be the reason for the lack of peptides identified by LC–MS/MS. Thus, A20 cells instead of J774A.1 cells were used for the subsequent experiments.”

      Recommendation 3. Lines 172-177, can more details be provided about the whole proteome analysis? The plots are shown for relative representation of protein expression to PBS, but it is unclear to me what examples of these proteins are (IFN pathway, Ubiquitination pathway). Could these be confirmed by protein expression analyses in supplemental?

      Thank you for the suggestion. In this study, we conducted whole proteome analysis to investigate changes in protein expression across different pathways in the adjuvant groups. Through KEGG enrichment analysis, we compared the differential expression of MHC presentation pathway proteins (such as H2-M, Ifi30, CD74, CTSS, proteasome, and peptidase subunits) between the PBS- and adjuvant-treated groups using our proteome data. In addition, we focused on IFN and ubiquitination pathways that play crucial roles in antigen presentation modification and immune response. The proteins and their relative expression in these pathways are shown in Figure S4B. Details regarding the protein names and expressions are provided in Supplemental Table S2 of the revised manuscript.

      The original statements in the results “Then, we analyzed the whole proteome data to determine whether the proteins involved in antigen presentation and processing were altered. We found that proteins involved in antigen processing, peptidase function, ubiquitination pathway, and interferon (IFN) signaling were altered post adjuvants treatment, especially in MPLA and CpG groups (Figure 5C; Figure S4B and S4C). These data suggest that adjuvants MPLA and CpG may affect the antigen processing of APCs, resulting in fewer peptides presentation.” This has been revised on page 8 lines 172–182 as “We then investigated whole-proteome data to determine the evidence of adjuvant modification of antigen presentation. We focused on the proteins involved in antigen processing, peptidase function, ubiquitination pathway, and IFN signaling. The ubiquitination pathway and IFN signaling play crucial roles in the modification of antigen presentation and immune responses. Through KEGG enrichment analysis, we found that many proteins involved in antigen processing, peptidase function, ubiquitination pathways, and IFN signaling were altered after adjuvant treatment, particularly in the MPLA- and CpG-treated groups (Figure 5C; Figure S4B). The expression of each protein is shown in Figure S4C and Supplementary Table 2. These data suggest that MPLA and CpG adjuvants may affect the antigen processing of APCs, resulting in fewer peptide presentations.”

      Recommendation 4. Lines 212-218: I think there needs to be more discussion of interpretation here. Only one of the low-stability peptides required low concentrations for CD4+ T cell responses in vitro. What about the other peptides in the analysis? Perhaps if the data is taken together there is not a clear pattern?

      Thank you for the comment. In this study, epitope-specific CD4+ T-cells were expanded in vitro from the spleens of peptide-pool-immunized mice. T-cell responses to individual peptides were detected using ICS and FACS. Only one peptide, recA #23, with low binding stability, and one high-stability peptide, ureA #2, induced effective T-cell responses. Peptide ureA #3 with high stability induces low Th1 responses. The other peptides cannot induce CD4+ T-cell secreting IFN-γ (Data are shown in Author response image 2). Thus, we compared the strength of IFN-γ responses induced by these three peptides at a set of low concentrations. Data for other peptides without any response could not be taken together.

      Author response image 2.

      The expanded CD4+T cells from peptides immunized mice were screened for their response to the peptides in an ICS assay.

      In this study, we used a peptide pool containing four low-stability peptides to vaccinate mice; however, only one peptide induced an effective CD4+ T-cell response. We speculate that the possible reasons are as follows. First, the number of peptides used for vaccination is too small. Only four low-stability peptides were synthesized and used to immunize mice. Three of these could not induce an effective T-cell response, possibly because of their low immunogenicity. If more peptides are synthesized and used, more peptides that induce T-cell responses may be observed. Second, epitope-specific T-cell responses are variable. Responses to the subdominant peptides can be inhibited by the dominant peptide. The subdominant peptide can become dominant by changing the peptide dose or in the absence of the dominant peptide. Thus, we believe that responses to the other three peptides may be detected if mice are immunized with a peptide pool that does not contain a response epitope.

      The corresponding statements have been added to the Discussion section on page 13 lines 287–291 as “Unfortunately, only one peptide, recA #23, with low binding stability and induced significant Th1 responses, was identified in this study. To further confirm that low-stability peptides can induce stronger and higher TCR-affinity antigen-specific T-cell clonotype responses than high-stability peptides, further studies should monitor more peptides with different stabilities.”

      Recommendation 5. There are some areas where additional editing to text would be beneficial due to grammar (eg lines 122-126; line 116, etc).

      The manuscript has been edited by a professional language editing company.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Recommendation 1. It is interesting that there was no difference in IFNg responses induced by different adjuvants.

      Thank you for the comment. Possible reasons for the lack of difference in IFN-γ responses could be as follows. First, all adjuvants used in this study have been confirmed to effectively induce Th1 responses. Second, in this study, IFN-γ responses were examined using expanded antigen-specific T cells in vitro. The in vitro cell expansion efficiency may have affected these results.

      Recommendation 2. The data to support the claim that changes in exogenous peptide presentation among adjuvant groups were not due to differences in antigen phagocytosis is insufficient.

      Thank you for the comment. In this study, proteomics of A20 cells pulsed with antigens in different adjuvant-treated groups were used to determine exogenous antigens phagocytosed by cells. In addition, we used fluorescein isothiocyanate (FITC)-labeled OVA to pulse APCs and detected antigen phagocytosis by APCs after treatment with different adjuvants. The MFI of FITC was detected by FACS at different time points. The data are shown below (Author response image 3). No obvious differences in FITC MFI were detected after adjuvant stimulation, indicating that antigen phagocytosis among the adjuvant groups was almost the same.

      A20 cells, used as APCs, are the B-cell line. Antigen recognition and phagocytosis by B-cells depends on the B-cell receptor (BCR) on the cell surface. The ability of BCRs to bind to different antigens varies, leading to significant differences in the phagocytosis of different antigens by B-cells. Therefore, detecting the phagocytosis of a single antigen may not reflect the overall phagocytic state of the B-cells. Thus, in this study, we used proteomics to detect exogenous proteins in B-cells pulsed with H. pylori antigens, which contain thousands of components, to evaluate their overall phagocytic capacity. Only the proteomic data are presented in our manuscript.

      Author response image 3.

      Antigen phagocytosis of A20 cells were measured using FITC-labeled OVA. (A) A20 cells were pulsed with FITC-labeled OVA. MFI of FITC was measured after 1 h. (B) MFI of FITC was examined post the stimulation of adjuvants at different time points.

      Recommendation 3. It is not clear how MPLA, CpG, and MDP adjuvants modulate the presentation of low vs high stability peptides.

      Thank you for pointing this out. We acknowledge that we did not clarify the mechanisms by which adjuvants affect the stability of the peptide presentations of APCs.

      We performed experiments to detect the expression of proteins involved in antigen processing and presentation in the different adjuvant-treated groups. Furthermore, shRNAs were used to knock down the expression of key molecules. Immunopeptidomics was used to detect peptide presentation. Unfortunately, the expected results for peptide presentation repertoires were not observed. We are still working on the mechanisms.

      Please also see our response to comment 1 of reviewer 1

      The related statements were added in the Discussion section on page 13, lines 292–299: “In this study, we found that the peptide repertoires presented by APCs were significantly affected by the adjuvants CpG and MPLA, but not MDP. All three adjuvants belong to the PRR ligand adjuvant family. CpG and MPLA bind to TLRs and MDP is recognized by NOD2. Although the receptors are different, many common molecules are involved both in TLR and NLD pathway activation.  Unfortunately, we did not demonstrate why the MDP had different impacts on peptide presentation compared with other adjuvants. Further investigation is required to clarify the mechanism by which MPLA, CpG, and MDP adjuvants modulate the presentation of peptides with different stabilities.”

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Valk and Engert et al. examined the potential relations between three different mental training modules, hippocampal structure and functional connectivity, and cortisol levels over a 9-month period. They found that among the three types of mental training: Presence (attention and introspective awareness), Affect (socio-emotional - compassion and prosocial motivation), and Perspective (socio-cognitive - metacognition and perspective taking) modules; Affect training most consistently related to changes in hippocampal structure and function - specifically, CA1-3 subfields of the hippocampus. Moreover, decreases in diurnal cortisol correlated to bilateral increases in volume, and decreases in diurnal and chronic cortisol left CA1-3 functional connectivity. Chronic cortisol levels also related to right CA4/DG volume and left subiculum function. The authors demonstrate that mindfulness training programs impact hippocampus and are a potential avenue for stress interventions, a potential avenue to improve health. The data contribute to the literature on plasticity of hippocampal subfields during adulthood, the impact of mental training interventions on the brain, and the link between CA1-3 and both short- and long-term stress changes. Additional clarification and extension of the methods is needed to strengthen the authors' conclusions.

      We thank the Reviewer for their positive evaluation and summary of our findings and work. We made additional changes as suggested by the Reviewer and hope this clarified any open points.

      (1) The authors thoughtfully approached the study of hippocampal subfields, utilizing a method designed for T1w images that outperformed Freesurfer 5.3 and that produced comparable results to an earlier version of ASHS. However, given the use of normalized T1-weighted images to delineate hippocampal subfield volume, some caution may be warranted (Wisse et al. 2020). While the authors note the assessment of quality control processes, the difficulty in ensuring valid measurement is an ongoing conversation in the literature. This also extends to the impact of functional co-registration using segmentations. I appreciate the inclusion of Table 5 in documenting reasons for missing data across subjects. Providing additional details on the distribution of quality ratings across subfields would help contextualize the results and ensure there is equal quality of segmentations across subfields.

      We thank the Reviewer for bringing up this point. In the current work, we assessed the overall segmentation of all six subfields per individual. Thus, unfortunately, we have no data of quality of segmentation of individual subfields beyond our holistic assessment. Indeed, registration of hippocampal subfields remains a challenge and we have further highlighted this limitation in the Discussion of the current work.

      “It is of note that the current work relies on a segmentation approach of hippocampal subfields including projection to MNI template space, an implicit correction for total brain volume through the use of a stereotaxic reference frame. Some caution for this method may be warranted, as complex hippocampal anatomy can in some cases lead to over- as well as underestimation of subfield volumes, as well as subfield boundaries may not always be clearly demarcated (1). Future work, studying the hippocampal surface at higher granularity, for example though unfolding the hippocampal sheet (2-5), may further help with both alignment and identification of not only subfield-specific change but also alterations as a function of the hippocampal long axis, a key dimension of hippocampal structural and functional variation that was not assessed in the current work (6, 7).”

      (2) Given the consistent pattern of finding results with CA1-3, in contrast to other subfields, it would help to know if the effects of the different training modules on subfields differed from each other statistically (i.e., not just that one is significant, and one is not) to provide an additional context of the strength of results focused on Affect training and CA1-3 (for example, those shown in Figure 3).

      Our work investigated i) whether the effects of the individual Training Modules differed from each other statistically. We found that the Affect Training Module showed increases in CA1-3 volume, and that these increases remained when testing effects relative to changes in this subfield following Perspective training and in retest controls. Moreover, in CA1-3 we found changes in functional connectivity when comparing the Affect to Perspective training Module. These changes were only present in this contrast, but not significant in each of the Training Modules per se. To test for specificity, we additionally evaluated whether subfield-specific changes were present above and beyond changes in the other ipsilateral hippocampal subfields. Relative to other subfields, right CA1-3 showed increases in the Affect vs Perspective contrast (left: t-value: 2.298, p=0.022, Q>0.1; right: t-value: 3.045, p=0.0025, Q=0.015). No other subfield showed significant changes. We now include this statement in the revised Results and Supplementary Tables.

      “Moreover, associations between CA1-3 and Affect, relative to Perspective, seemed to go largely above and beyond changes in the other subfields (left: t-value: 2.298, p=0.022, Q>0.1; right: t-value: 3.045, p=0.0025, Q=0.015, see further Supplementary File 1h).”

      Author response table 1.

      Subfield-specific changes following the Training Modules, controlling for the other two ipsilateral subfields

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) In Figure 1, using different colors for subfields versus the modules (yellow, red, green) would help as it could lead the reader to try to draw connections between the two when it is namely a depiction of the delineations.

      As suggested, we updated Figure 1 accordingly and present the subfields in different shades of purple for clarity. Please find the updated figure below.

      Author response image 1.

      (2) In the Results, it was at times hard to follow when Affect off Perspective where the focus of the results. Perhaps the authors could restructure or add additional context for clarity.

      We are happy to clarify. For the first analysis on Module-specific changes in hippocampal subfield volume, we compared effects across Training Modules. Here, main contrasts were ran between subjects: Presence vs active control and within subjects: Affect versus Perspective. In additional secondary contrasts, we studied training effects vs retest control. After observing consistent increases in bilateral CA1-3 following Affect, in the following analysis, we evaluated 1) intrinsic functional networks in main and supplementary contrasts and 2) diurnal cortisol measures within the Training modules only and all three Training Modules combined, and also adopted 3) a multivariate approach (PLS) (see comments Reviewer 2). We now also report effects of cortisol change on structural and functional subfield change in Presence and Perspective, for additional completeness and clarity.

      “To study whether there was any training module-specific change in hippocampal subfield volumes following mental training, we compared training effects between all three Training Modules (Presence, Affect, and Perspective). Main contrasts were: Presence vs Active control (between subjects) and Affect vs Perspective (within subjects). Supplementary comparisons were made vs retest controls and within training groups.”

      “Overall, for all hippocampal subfields, findings associated with volume increases in CA1-3 fol-lowing the Affect training were most consistent across timepoints and contrasts (Supplementary File 1a-f).”

      “Subsequently, we studied whether hippocampal CA1-3 would show corresponding changes in intrinsic function following the Affect mental training.”

      “In particular, the moderately consistent CA1-3 volume increases following Affect training were complemented with differential functional connectivity alterations of this subfield when comparing Affect to Perspective training”

      “Last, we probed whether group-level changes in hippocampal subfield CA1-3 volume would correlate with individual-level changes in diurnal cortisol indices (Presence: n= 86; Affect: n=92; Perspective: n=81), given that the hippocampal formation is a nexus of the HPA-axis (8). We took a two-step approach. First, we studied associations between cortisol and subfield change, particularly focusing on the Affect module and CA1-3 volume based on increases in CA1-3 volume identified in our group-level analysis.”

      “We observed that increases in bilateral CA1-3 following Affect showed a negative association with change in total diurnal cortisol output […]”

      “We did not observe alterations in CA1-3 volume in relation to change in cortisol markers in Presence or Perspective. Yet, for Presence, we observed association between slope and LCA4/DG change (t=-2.89, p=0.005, q=0.03), (Supplementary File 1uv).”

      “In case of intrinsic function, we also did not observe alterations in CA1-3 in relation to change in cortisol markers in Presence or Perspective, nor in other subfields (Supplementary File 1wx).”

      Author response table 2.

      Correlating change in subfield volume and diurnal cortisol indices in Presence. Main focus was on CA1-3 based on volumetric observations and are highlighted in bold.

      Author response table 3.

      Correlating change in subfield volume and diurnal cortisol indices in Perspective. Main focus was on CA1-3 based on volumetric observations and are highlighted in bold.

      Author response table 4.

      Association between stress-markers and within functional network sub-regions in Affect and Perspective.

      Author response table 5.

      Correlating change in subfield function and diurnal cortisol indices in Presence. Main focus was on CA1-3 based on volumetric observations and are highlighted in bold. For these multiple comparisons (FDRq, corrected for two subfields) values are reported if uncorrected p values are below p<.05.

      Author response table 6.

      Correlating change in subfield function and diurnal cortisol indices in Perspective. Main focus was on CA1-3 based on volumetric observations and are highlighted in bold. For these multiple comparisons (FDRq, corrected for two subfields) values are reported if uncorrected p values are below p<.05.

      (3) In the Methods, the authors note that corrections for multiple comparisons were used where needed, throughout the manuscript there is some switching between corrected and uncorrected p-values. At times, this made it difficult to follow in terms of when these corrections were needed.

      For clarity, we added explicit multiple comparisons information a) in main and supplementary results, and b) wherever extra information was needed. Also, we only included main contrasts in Table 1-3 to avoid confusion and moved the information on changes in SUB and CA4/DG to the Supplementary tables.

      (4) Typically, when correcting for intracranial volume the purpose is the ensure that sexual dimorphism in the size of the brain is accounted for. I would recommend the authors assess whether sex differences are accounted for by the MNI normalization approach taken. In the reading of the original Methods paper for the patch-based algorithm used, ICV was used to transform to MNI152 space. It would help to have additional information on how the normalization was done in the current study in order to draw comparisons to other findings in the literature.

      We are happy to further clarify. In the current work, we used the same approach as in the original paper. Volumes were linearly registered to the MNI template using FSL flirt. We now provided this additional information in the revised methods.

      “Hippocampal volumes were estimated based on T1w data that were linearly registered to MNI152 using FSL flirt (http://www.fmrib.ox.ac.uk/fsl/), such that intracranial volume was implicitly controlled for.”

      We agree with the Reviewer that sex differences may still be present, and investigated this. At baseline, sex differences were found in all subfields in the left hemisphere, and right CA4/DG (FDRq<0.05). Regressing out ICV resolved remaining sex differences. We then evaluated whether main results of volumetric subfield change were impacted by ICV differences. Differences between Affect and Perspective remained stable. We have now added this additional analysis in the Supplementary Materials.

      “Although stereotaxic normalization to MNI space would in theory account for global sex differences in intra-cranial volume, we still observed sex differences in various subfield volumes at baseline. Yet, accounting for ICV did not impact our main results suggesting changes in CA1-3 following Affect were robust to sex differences in overall brain volume (Supplementary File1j).”

      Author response table 7.

      Sex differences (female versus male) in hippocampal subfield volumes.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      In this study, Valk, Engert et al. investigated effects of stress-reducing behavioral intervention on hippocampal structure and function across different conditions of mental training and in relation to diurnal and chronic cortisol levels. The authors provide convincing multimodal evidence of a link between hippocampal integrity and stress regulation, showing changes in both volume and intrinsic functional connectivity, as measured by resting-state fMRI, in hippocampal subfield CA1-3 after socio-affective training as compared to training in a socio-cognitive module. In particular, increased CA1-3 volume following socio-affective training overlapped with increased functional connectivity to medial prefrontal cortex, and reductions in cortisol. The conclusions of this paper are well supported by the data, although some aspects of the data analysis would benefit from being clarified and extended.

      A main strength of the study is the rigorous design of the behavioral intervention, including test-retest cohorts, an active control group, and a previously established training paradigm, contributing to an overall high quality of included data. Similarly, systematic quality checking of hippocampal subfield segmentations contributes to a reliable foundation for structural and functional investigations.

      We thank the Reviewer for the thoughtful summary and appreciation of our work, as well as requests for further clarification and analyses. We addressed each of them in a point by point fashion below.

      Another strength of the study is the multimodal data, including both structural and functional markers of hippocampal integrity as well as both diurnal and chronic estimates of cortisol levels.

      (1) However, the included analyses are not optimally suited for elucidating multivariate interrelationships between these measures. Instead, effects of training on structure and function, and their links to cortisol, are largely characterized separately from each other. This results in the overall interpretation of results, and conclusions, being dependent on a large number of separate associations. Adopting multivariate approaches would better target the question of whether there is cortisol-related structural and functional plasticity in the hippocampus after mental training aimed at reducing stress.

      We thank the Reviewer for this suggestion. Indeed, our project combined different univariate analyses to uncover the association between hippocampal subfield structure, function, and cortisol markers. While systematic, a downside of this approach is indeed that interpretation of our results depend on a large number of analyses. To further explore the question whether there is cortisol-related structural and functional plasticity in the hippocampus, we followed the Reviewer’s suggestion and additionally adopted a multivariate partial least squares (PLS) model. We ran two complementary models. One focusing on the bilateral CA1-3, as this region showed increases in volume following Affect training and differential change between Affect and Perspective training in our resting state analyses and one model including all subfields. Both models included all stress markers. We found that both models could significantly relate stress markers to brain measures, and that in particular Affect showed strong associations with significant the latent markers. Both analyses showed inverse effects of structure and function in relation to stress markers and both slope and AUC changes showed strongest loadings. We now include these analyses the revised manuscript.

      Abstract

      “Of note, using a multivariate approach we found that other subfields, showing no group-level changes, also contributed to alterations in cortisol levels, suggesting circuit-level alterations within the hippocampal formation.”

      Methods

      “Partial least squares analysis

      To assess potential relationships between cortisol change and hippocampal subfield volume and functional change, we performed a partial least squares analysis (PLS) (9, 10). PLS is a multivariate associative model that to optimizes the covariance between two matrices, by generating latent components (LCs), which are optimal linear combinations of the original matrices (9, 10). In our study, we utilized PLS to analyze the relationships between change in volume and intrinsic function of hippocampal subfields and diurnal cortisol measures. Here we included all Training Modules and regressed out effects of age, sex, and random effects of subject on the brain measures before conducting the PLS analysis. The PLS process involves data normalization within training groups, cross-covariance, and singular value decomposition. Subsequently, subfield and behavioral scores are computed, and permutation testing (1000 iterations) is conducted to evaluate the significance of each latent factor solution (FDR corrected). We report then the correlation of the individual hippocampal and cortisol markers with the latent factors. To estimate confidence intervals for these correlations, we applied a bootstrapping procedure that generated 100 samples with replacement from subjects’ RSFC and behavioral data.”

      Results

      “Last, to further explore the question whether there is concordant cortisol-related structural and functional plasticity in the hippocampus we adopted a multivariate partial least square approach, with 1000 permutations to account for stability (9, 10) and bootstrapping (100 times) with replacement. We ran two complementary models including all Training Modules whilst regressing out age, sex and random effects of subject. First, we focused on the bilateral CA1-3, as this region showed increases in volume following Affect training and differential change between Affect and Perspective training in our resting state analyses. In the second model included structural and functional data of all subfields. Both models included all stress markers. We found that both models could identify significant associations between cortisol stress markers and hippocampal plasticity (FDRq<0.05), and that in particular Affect showed strongest associations with the latent markers for CA1-3 (Table 5). Both analyses showed inverse effects of subfield structure and function in relation to stress markers and both slope and AUC changes showed strongest associations with the latent factor.”

      Author response table 8.

      Multivariate PLS analyses linking cortisol markers to hippocampal subfield volume and function.

      Discussion

      “Last, performing multivariate analysis, we again observed associations between CA1-3 volume and function plasticity and stress change, strongest in Affect. Yet combining all subfields in a single model indicated that other subfields also link to stress alterations, indicating that ultimately circuit-level alterations within the hippocampal formation relate to latent changes in diurnal stress markers across Training Modules.”

      “This interpretation is also supported by our multivariate observations.”

      “In line with our observations in univariate analysis, we found multivariate associations between hippocampal subfield volume, intrinsic function and cortisol markers. Again, the contribution of volume and intrinsic function was inverse. This may possibly relate to the averaging procedure of the functional networks. Combined, outcomes of our univariate and multivariate analyses point to an association between change in hippocampal subfields and stress markers, and that these changes, at the level of the individual, ultimately reflect complex interactions within and across hippocampal subfields and may capture different aspects of diurnal stress. Future work may more comprehensively study the plasticity of the hippocampal structure, and link this to intrinsic functional change and cortisol to gain full insights in the specificity and system-level interplay across subfields, for example using more detailed hippocampal models (3). Incorporating further multivariate, computational, models is needed to further unpack and investigate the complex and nuanced association between hippocampal structure and function, in particular in relation to subfield plasticity and short and long-term stress markers.”

      “…based on univariate analysis. Our multivariate analysis further nuanced this observation, but again pointed to an overall association between hippocampal subfield changes and cortisol changes, but this time more at a systems level.”

      “Lastly, our multivariate analyses also point to a circuit level understanding of latent diurnal stress scores.”

      Author response image 2.

      Multivariate associations between changes in structure and function of hippocampal subfield volume and markers of stress change in Affect. A) Multivariate associations between bilateral CA1-3 volume and intrinsic function and stress markers. Left: Scatter of loadings, colored by Training Module; Right upper: individual correlations of stress markers; Right lower: individual correlation of subfields; B). Multivariate associations between all subfields’ volume and intrinsic function and stress markers. Left: Scatter of loadings, colored by Training Module; Right upper: individual correlations of stress markers; Right lower: individual correlation of subfields.

      (2) The authors emphasize a link between hippocampal subfield CA1-3 and stress regulation, and indeed, multiple lines of evidence converge to highlight a most consistent role of CA1-3. There are, however, some aspects of the results that limit the robustness of this conclusion. First, formal comparisons between subfields are incomplete, making it difficult to judge whether the CA1-3, to a greater degree than other subfields, display effects of training.

      We thank the Reviewer for this comment. To further test for specificity, we additionally evaluated subfield-specific changes relative to other subfields for our main contrasts (Presence versus Active Control and Affect versus Perspective). Relative to other subfields, right CA1-3 showed increases in the Affect vs Perspective contrast (left: t-value: 2.298, p=0.022, Q>0.1; right: t-value: 3.045, p=0.0025, Q=0.015); no other subfield showed significant changes. We now include this statement in Results and Supplementary Tables.

      “Moreover, associations between CA1-3 and Affect, relative to Perspective, seemed to go largely above and beyond changes in the other subfields (left: t-value: 2.298, p=0.022, Q>0.1; right: t-value: 3.045, p=0.0025, Q=0.015, see further Supplementary File 1h).”

      Author response table 9.

      Subfield-specific changes following the Training Modules, controlling for the other two ipsilateral subfields

      (3) Relatedly, it would be of interest to assess whether changes in CA1-3 make a significant contribution to explaining the link between hippocampal integrity and cortisol, as compared to structure and functional connectivity of the whole hippocampus.

      We thank the Reviewer for this comment. Please see the PLS analysis performed above (R2Q1). Indeed, not only CA1-3 but also other subfields seem to show a relationship with cortisol, in line with circuit level accounts on stress regulation and hippocampal circuit alterations (8, 11-15).

      (4) Second, both structural and functional effects (although functional to a greater degree), were most pronounced in the specific comparison of "Affect" and "Perspective" training conditions, possibly limiting the study's ability to inform general principles of hippocampal stress-regulation.

      We agree with the Reviewer that the association between stress and hippocampal plasticity, on the one hand, and mental training and hippocampal plasticity, on the other hand, make it not very straightforward to inform general principles on hippocampal stress regulation. However, as underscored in the discussion, in previous work we could also link mental training to stress reductions(16-18). We hope that the additional analyses and explanations further explain the multilevel insights of the current work, on the one hand using group-level analysis to investigate and illustrate the association between mental training and hippocampal subfield volume and intrinsic function, and on the other hand using individual level analysis to unpack the association between cortisol change and hippocampal subfield change.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) In the Results, the description of how the hippocampal subfields' functional networks were defined would benefit from some clarification. It is also somewhat unclear what is meant by (on page 10): "Evaluating functional connectivity changes, we found that connectivity of the right CA1-3 functional network showed differential changes when comparing Affect training to Perspective training (2.420, p=0.016, FDRq=0.032, Cohens D =0.289), but not versus retest control (Table 1 and Supplementary Table 8-14)." Were there significant changes in CA1-3 FC following both training conditions (but these differed from each other)? A description of what this difference reflected would increase the reader's understanding.

      We are happy to clarify. We included information of change of individual modules in the Supplementary materials, Supplementary Table 1 and 2, 9 and 10. Changes for functional connectivity were largely due to the differences in Modules, but did not show strong effects in one Module alone. We now include information on Affect and Perspective un-contrasted change in the main results text:

      “… which could be attributed to decreases in right CA1-3 mean FC following Perspective (t=-2.012, p=0.045, M:-0.024, std: 0.081, CI [-0.041 -0.006]), but not Affect (t=1.691, p=0.092, M: 0.010, std: 0.098, CI [-0.01 0.031]); changes were not present when comparing Affect training versus retest control (Table 1 and Supplementary File 1k-q).”

      (2) As described in the Public Review, the lack of multivariate assessments may risk selling the data short. Including analyses of concomitant functional and structural changes, in relation to cortisol, seems like an approach better adapted to characterize meaningful interrelationships between these measures.

      We thank the Reviewer for suggesting multivariate assessments. To understand the interrelation between behavioral intervention, hippocampal plasticity, and cortisol changes, the current work first evaluates a simpler operationalization of the relationship between hippocampal subfield structure and volume, and cortisol as a function of mental training. Thus, given the complex nature of the study, we initially opted for a model where we assess structural and functional changes independently, with structural changes as the basis of our investigations. Now we have also included a multivariate approach (PLS) to further test the association between hippocampal subfields and cortisol markers, please see our additions to the manuscript above. We now highlighted multivariate associations in the Discussion as well, and suggest this as an important next step for more detailed, future investigations.

      “Incorporating further multivariate, computational, models is needed to further unpack and investigate the complex and nuanced association between hippocampal structure and function, in particular in relation to subfield plasticity and short and long-term stress markers.”

      (3) A minor comment regards the Figures. Some main effects should be visualized in a clearer manner. For instance, the scatterplots in Figure 1, panel D. Also, some of the current headings within the figures could be made more intuitive to the reader.

      We thank the Reviewer for this comment. To improve clarity, we updated figure headings. For Figure 1D, the challenge is that the data are quite scattered and we aimed to visualize our observations in a naturalistic way. Therefore, we added additional y-axis information to further clarify the figures. Creating more overlap or differentiation would make other elements of the figure less clear, hence we remained with the current set-up detailing the intra- and inter-individual alterations of the current model.

      (1) Wisse LEM, Chetelat G, Daugherty AM, de Flores R, la Joie R, Mueller SG, et al. (2021): Hippocampal subfield volumetry from structural isotropic 1 mm(3) MRI scans: A note of caution. Hum Brain Mapp. 42:539-550.

      (2) DeKraker J, Kohler S, Khan AR (2021): Surface-based hippocampal subfield segmentation. Trends Neurosci. 44:856-863.

      (3) DeKraker J, Haast RAM, Yousif MD, Karat B, Lau JC, Kohler S, et al. (2022): Automated hippocampal unfolding for morphometry and subfield segmentation with HippUnfold. Elife. 11.

      (4) Vos de Wael R, Lariviere S, Caldairou B, Hong SJ, Margulies DS, Jefferies E, et al. (2018): Anatomical and microstructural determinants of hippocampal subfield functional connectome embedding. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 115:10154-10159.

      (5) Bernhardt BC, Bernasconi A, Liu M, Hong SJ, Caldairou B, Goubran M, et al. (2016): The spectrum of structural and functional imaging abnormalities in temporal lobe epilepsy. Ann Neurol. 80:142-153.

      (6) Vogel JW, La Joie R, Grothe MJ, Diaz-Papkovich A, Doyle A, Vachon-Presseau E, et al. (2020): A molecular gradient along the longitudinal axis of the human hippocampus informs large-scale behavioral systems. Nat Commun. 11:960.

      (7) Genon S, Bernhardt BC, La Joie R, Amunts K, Eickhoff SB (2021): The many dimensions of human hippocampal organization and (dys)function. Trends Neurosci. 44:977-989.

      (8) McEwen BS (1999): Stress and hippocampal plasticity. Annu Rev Neurosci. 22:105-122.

      (9) Kebets V, Holmes AJ, Orban C, Tang S, Li J, Sun N, et al. (2019): Somatosensory-Motor Dysconnectivity Spans Multiple Transdiagnostic Dimensions of Psychopathology. Biol Psychiatry. 86:779-791.

      (10) McIntosh AR, Lobaugh NJ (2004): Partial least squares analysis of neuroimaging data: applications and advances. Neuroimage. 23 Suppl 1:S250-263.

      (11) Paquola C, Benkarim O, DeKraker J, Lariviere S, Frassle S, Royer J, et al. (2020): Convergence of cortical types and functional motifs in the human mesiotemporal lobe. Elife. 9.

      (12) DeKraker J, Ferko KM, Lau JC, Kohler S, Khan AR (2018): Unfolding the hippocampus: An intrinsic coordinate system for subfield segmentations and quantitative mapping. Neuroimage. 167:408-418.

      (13) McEwen BS, Nasca C, Gray JD (2016): Stress Effects on Neuronal Structure: Hippocampus, Amygdala, and Prefrontal Cortex. Neuropsychopharmacology. 41:3-23.

      (14) Sapolsky RM (2000): Glucocorticoids and hippocampal atrophy in neuropsychiatric disorders. Arch Gen Psychiatry. 57:925-935.

      (15) Jacobson L, Sapolsky R (1991): The role of the hippocampus in feedback regulation of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenocortical axis. Endocr Rev. 12:118-134.

      (16) Engert V, Hoehne K, Singer T (2023): Specific reduction in the cortisol awakening response after socio-affective mental training. Mindfulness.

      (17) Puhlmann LMC, Vrticka P, Linz R, Stalder T, Kirschbaum C, Engert V, et al. (2021): Contemplative Mental Training Reduces Hair Glucocorticoid Levels in a Randomized Clinical Trial. Psychosom Med. 83:894-905.

      (18) Engert V, Kok BE, Papassotiriou I, Chrousos GP, Singer T (2017): Specific reduction in cortisol stress reactivity after social but not attention-based mental training. Sci Adv. 3:e1700495.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews: 

      Reviewer #1 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      Govindan and Conrad use a genome-wide CRISPR screen to identify genes regulating retention of intron 4 in OGT, leveraging an intron retention reporter system previously described (PMID: 35895270). Their OGT intron 4 reporter reliably responds to O-GlcNAc levels, mirroring the endogenous splicing event. Through a genome-wide CRISPR knockout library, they uncover a range of splicing-related genes, including multiple core spliceosome components, acting as negative regulators of OGT intron 4 retention. They choose to follow up on SFSWAP, a largely understudied splicing regulator shown to undergo rapid phosphorylation in response to O-GlcNAc level changes (PMID: 32329777). RNA-sequencing reveals that SFSWAP depletion not only promotes OGT intron 4 splicing but also broadly induces exon inclusion and intron splicing, affecting decoy exon usage. While this study offers interesting insights into intron retention and O-GlcNAc signaling regulation, the RNA sequencing experiments lack the essential controls needed to provide full confidence to the authors' conclusions. 

      Strengths: 

      (1) This study presents an elegant genetic screening approach to identify regulators of intron retention, uncovering core spliceosome genes as unexpected positive regulators of intron retention. 

      (2) The work proposes a novel functional role for SFSWAP in splicing regulation, suggesting that it acts as a negative regulator of splicing and cassette exon inclusion, which contrasts with expected SR-related protein functions. 

      (3) The authors suggest an intriguing model where SFSWAP, along with other spliceosome proteins, promotes intron retention by associating with decoy exons. 

      We thank the reviewer for recognizing and detailing the strengths of our manuscript. 

      Weaknesses: 

      (1) The conclusions on SFSWAP impact on alternative splicing are based on cells treated with two pooled siRNAs for five days. This extended incubation time without independent siRNA treatments raises concerns about off-target effects and indirect effects from secondary gene expression changes, potentially limiting confidence in direct SFSWAP-dependent splicing regulation. Rescue experiments and shorter siRNA-treatment incubation times could address these issues. 

      We repeated our SFSWAP knockdown analysis and analyzed both OGT e4-e5 junction splicing and SFSWAP transcript levels by RT-qPCR (now included in Sup. Fig. S4) from day 2 to day 5 post siRNA treatment. We observed that the time point at which OGT intron 4 removal increases (day 2) coincides with the time at which SFSWAP transcript levels start decrease, consistent with a direct effect of SFSWAP knockdown on OGT intron 4 splicing. Moreover, the effect of SFSWAP knockdown on OGT intron 4 splicing peaks between day 4-5, supporting our use of these longer time points to cast a wide net for SFSWAP targets.

      (2) The mechanistic role of SFSWAP in splicing would benefit from further exploration. Key questions remain, such as whether SFSWAP directly binds RNA, specifically the introns and exons (including the decoy exons) it appears to regulate. Furthermore, given that SFSWAP phosphorylation is influenced by changes in O-GlcNAc signaling, it would be interesting to investigate this relationship further. While generating specific phosphomutants may not yield definitive insights due to redundancy and also beyond the scope of the study, the authors could examine whether distinct SFSWAP domains, such as the SR and SURP domains, which likely overlap with phosphorylation sites, are necessary for regulating OGT intron 4 splicing. 

      We absolutely agree with the reviewer that the current work stops short of a detailed mechanistic study, and we have made every attempt to be circumspect in our interpretations to reflect that limitation. In addition, we are very interested in delving more deeply into the mechanistic aspects of this regulation. In fact, we have initiated many of the experiments suggested by the reviewer (and more), but in each case, rigorous interpretable results will require a minimum another year’s time. 

      For example, we have used crosslinking and biotin labeling techniques (using previously available reagents from Eclipsebio) to test whether SFSWAP binds RNA. The results were negative, but the lack of strong SFSWAP antibodies required that we use a transiently expressed myc-tagged SFSWAP. Therefore, this negative result could be an artifact of the exogenous expression and/or tagging. Given the difficulties of “proving the negative”, considerably more work will be required to substantiate this finding. As another example, we intend to develop a complementation assay as suggested. For an essential gene, the ideal complementation system employs a degron system, and we have spent months attempting to generate a homozygous AID-tagged SFSWAP. Unfortunately, we so far have only found heterozygotes. Of course, this could be because the tag interferes with function, the insert was not efficiently incorporated by homologous repair, or that we simply haven’t yet screened a sufficient number of clones. We’re confident that these technical issues that can be addressed, but they will take a significant amount of time to resolve. While we would ideally define a mechanism, we think that the data reported here outlining functions for SFSWAP in splicing represent a body of work sufficient for publication. 

      (3) Data presentation could be improved (specific suggestions are included in the recommendations section). Furthermore, Excel tables with gene expression and splicing analysis results should be provided as supplementary datasheets. Finally, a more detailed explanation of statistical analyses is necessary in certain sections. 

      We have addressed all specific suggestions as detailed in the recommendations below.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      The paper describes an effort to identify the factors responsible for intron retention and alternate exon splicing in a complex system known to be regulated by the O-GlcNAc cycling system. The CRISPR/Cas9 system was used to identify potential factors. The bioinformatic analysis is sophisticated and compelling. The conclusions are of general interest and advance the field significantly. 

      Strengths: 

      (1) Exhaustive analysis of potential splicing factors in an unbiased screen. 

      (2) Extensive genome wide bioinformatic analysis. 

      (3) Thoughtful discussion and literature survey. 

      We thank the reviewer for recognizing and detailing the strengths of our manuscript. 

      Weaknesses: 

      (1) No firm evidence linking SFSWAP to an O-GlcNAc specific mechanism. 

      We couldn’t agree more with this critique. Indeed, our intention at the outset for the screen was to find an O-GlcNAc sensor linking OGT splicing with O-GlcNAc levels. As often occurs with high-throughput screens, we didn’t find exactly what we were looking for, but the screen nonetheless pointed us to interesting biology. Prompted by our screen, we describe new insights into the function of SFSWAP a relatively uncharacterized essential gene. Currently, we are testing other candidates from our screen, and we are performing additional studies to identify potential O-GlcNAc sensors.  

      (2) Resulting model leaves many unanswered questions. 

      We agree (see Reviewer 1, point 2 response).  

      Reviewer #3 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      The major novel finding in this study is that SFSWAP, a splicing factor containing an RS domain but no canonical RNA binding domain, functions as a negative regulator of splicing. More specifically, it promotes retention of specific introns in a wide variety of transcripts including transcripts from the OGT gene previously studied by the Conrad lab. The balance between OGT intron retention and OGT complete splicing is an important regulator of O-GlcNAc expression levels in cells. 

      Strengths: 

      An elegant CRISPR knockout screen employed a GFP reporter, in which GFP is efficiently expressed only when the OGT retained intron is removed (so that the transcript will be exported from the nucleus to allow for translation of GFP). Factors whose CRISPR knockdown causes decreased intron retention therefore increase GFP, and can be identified by sequencing RNA of GFP-sorted cells. SFSWAP was thus convincingly identified as a negative regulator of OGT retained intron splicing. More focused studies of OGT intron retention indicate that it may function by regulating a decoy exon previously identified in the intron, and that this may extend to other transcripts with decoy exons. 

      We thank the reviewer for recognizing the strengths of our manuscript. 

      Weaknesses: 

      The mechanism by which SFSWAP represses retained introns is unclear, although some data suggests it can operate (in OGT) at the level of a recently reported decoy exon within that intron.

      Interesting/appropriate speculation about possible mechanisms are provided and will likely be the subject of future studies. 

      We completely agree that this is a limitation of the current study (see above). Now that we have a better understanding of SFSWAP functions, we will continue to explore SFSWAP mechanisms as suggested. 

      Overall the study is well done and carefully described but some figures and some experiments should be described in more detail. 

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      (1) Clarify and add missing statistical details across the figures. For example, Figure S2 lacks statistical comparisons, and in Figures 4A and 4C the tests applied should be specified in the legend. 

      We have added appropriate statistical analysis wherever missing and edited figure legends to specify the tests used.

      (2) The authors are strongly encouraged to provide detailed tables of gene expression and alternative splicing analyses from RNA-Seq experiments (e.g., edgeR, rMATS, Whippet, and MAJIQ), as this would enhance transparency and facilitate data interpretation. 

      We have added tables for gene expression and alternate splicing analysis as suggested (Suppl. tables 3-

      6).

      (3) Although the legend sometimes indicates differently (e.g., Figure 3b, 5a, 5c, etc), the volcano plots showing the splicing changes do not contain a cutoff for marginally differential percent spliced in or intron retention values. 

      The legends have been edited to reflect the correct statistical and/or PSI cutoffs.

      (4) For consistency, use a consistent volcano plot format across all relevant figures (Figures 3b, 5a-c, S3, S4, S7, and S8), including cutoffs for differential splicing and the total count of up- and down-regulated events. 

      Due to different statistical frameworks and calculations employed by different alternate splicing pipelines, we could not use the same cutoffs for different pipelines.  However, we have now indicated the number of up- and down-regulated events for consistency among the volcano plots.

      (5) What is the overlap of differentially regulated events between the different analytical methodologies applied? 

      We analyzed the degree of overlap between the three pipelines used in the paper using a Venn diagram (added to Suppl. Fig. S7). However, as widely reported in literature (e.g., Olofsson et al., 2023; Biochem Biophys Res Commun. 2023; doi: 10.1016/j.bbrc.2023.02.053.), the degree of overlap between pipelines is quite low.

      (6) To further substantiate your conclusions, additional validations of RNA-Seq splicing data, ideally visualized on an agarose gel, would be valuable, especially for exons and introns regulated by SFSWAP, and particularly for OGT decoy exons in Figure 4c. 

      We have not included these experiments as we focused on other critiques for this resubmission. Because the RNA-seq, RT-PCR and RT-qPCR data all align, we are confident that the products we are seeing are correctly identified and orthogonally validated (Figs 2d, 4a, 4b, and 4c).  

      (7) It would be more informative if the CRISPR screen data were presented in a format where both the adjusted p-value and LFC values of the hits are presented. Perhaps a volcano plot? 

      We have now included these graphs in revised Supplementary Figure S2. 

      (8) In Figure 2d, a cartoon showing primer binding sites for each panel could aid interpretation, particularly in explaining the unexpected simultaneous increase in OGT mRNA and intron retention upon SFSWAP knockdown. 

      We have added a cartoon showing primer binding sites similar to that shown in Fig. 4a.

      (9) Page 9, line 1, states that SFSWAP autoregulates its expression by controlling intron retention. Including a Sashimi plot would provide visual support for this claim. 

      The data suggesting that SFSWAP autoregulates its own transcript abundance were reported in Zachar et al. (1994), not from our own studies. Validation of those data with our RNA-seq data is confounded by the fact that we are using siRNAs to knockdown the SFSWAP RNA at the transcript level (Fig. S15). 

      (10) In the legend of Figure S2 the authors state that negative results are inconclusive because RNA knockdowns are not verified by western blotting or qRT-PCR. This is correct, but the reviewer would also argue that the positive results are also inconclusive as they are not supported by a rescue experiment to confirm that the effect is not due to off-target effects. 

      This is a fair point with respect to the siRNA experiments on their own. However, the CRISPR screen was performed with sgRNAs, and MAGeCK RRA scores are high only for those genes that have multiple sgRNAs that up-regulate the gene. Examination of the SFSWAP sgRNAs individually shows that three of four SFSWAP sgRNAs had false discovery rates ≤10<sup>-42</sup> for GFP upregulation. Thus, the siRNAs provide an additional orthogonal approach. It seems unlikely that the siRNAs, and three independent sgRNAs will have the same off-target results. Thus, these combined observations support the conclusion that SFSWAP loss leads to decreased OGT intron retention.  

      (11) For clarity in Figure 3a, consider using differential % spliced in or intron retention bar plots with directionality (positive and negative axis) and labeling siSFSWAP as the primary condition. 

      (12) Consider presenting Figure 5D as a box plot with a Wilcoxon test for statistical comparison. 

      For both points 11 and 12, we have tried the graphs as the reviewer suggested. While these were good suggestions, in both cases we felt that the original plots ended up presenting a clearer presentation of the data (see Author response image 1).

      Author response image 1.

      (13) Please expand the Methods section to detail the Whippet and MAJIQ analyses. 

      We have expanded the methods section to include additional details of the alternate splicing analysis.

      (14) Include coordinates for the four possible OGT decoy exon combinations analyzed in the Methods section. 

      We have added the coordinates of all four decoy forms in the methods section.  

      (15) A section on SFSWAP mass spectrometry is listed in Methods but is missing from the manuscript. 

      This section has now been removed.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      This is an excellent contribution. The paper describes an effort to identify the factors responsible for intron retention and alternate exon splicing in a complex system known to be regulated by the O-GlcNAc cycling system. The CRISPR/Cas9 system was used to identify potential factors. The bioinformatic analysis is sophisticated and compelling. The conclusions are of general interest and advance the field significantly. 

      Some specific recommendations. 

      (1) The plots in Figure 3 describing SI and ES events are confusing to this reader. Perhaps the violin plot is not the best way to visualize these events. The same holds true for the histograms in the lower panel of Figure 3. Not sure what to make of these plots. 

      For Figure 3b, we include both scatter and violin plots to represent the same data in two distinct ways. For Figure 3d, we agree that these are not the simplest plots to understand, and we have spent significant time trying to come up with a better way of displaying these trends in GC content as they relate to SE and RI events. Unfortunately, we were unable to identify a clearer way to present these data. 

      (2) The model (Figure 6) is very useful but confusing. The legend and the Figure itself are somewhat inconsistent. The bottom line of the figure is apparent but I fear that the authors are trying to convey a more complete model than is apparent from this figure. Please revise. 

      We have simplified the figure from the previous submission. As mentioned above, we admit that mechanistic details remain unknown. However, we have tried to generate a model that reflects our data, adds some speculative elements to be tested in the future, but remains as simple as possible. We are not quite sure what the reviewer was referring to as “somewhat inconsistent”, but we have attempted to clarify the model in the revised Discussion and Figure legend.  

      (3) It is unclear how normalization of the RNA seq experiments was performed (eg. Figure S5 and 6).  

      The normalization differences in Fig. S5 and S6 (now Fig S8 and S9) were due to scaling differences during the use of rmats2sashimiplot software. We have now replaced Fig. S5 to reflect correctly scaled images.

      I am enthusiastic about the manuscript and feel that with some clarification it will be an important contribution. 

      Thank you for these positive comments about our study!

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      (1) In Figure 1f, it is clear that siRNA-mediated knockdown of OGT greatly increases spliced RNA as the cells attempt to compensate by more efficient intron removal (three left lanes). However, there is no discussion of the various treatments with TG or OSMI. Might quantitation of these lanes not also show the desired effects of TG and OSMI on spliced transcript levels? 

      The strong effect of OGT knockdown masks the (comparatively modest) effects of subsequent inhibitor treatments on the reporter RNA. We have edited the results section to clarify this.

      (2) In Figure 2c, why is the size difference between spliced RNA and intron-retained RNA so different in the GFP-probed gel (right) compared with the OGT-probed gel (left)? Even recognizing that the GFP probe is directed against reporter transcripts, and the OGT probe (I think) is directed against endogenous OGT transcripts, shouldn't the difference between spliced and unspliced bands be the same, i.e., +/- the intron 4 sequence. Also, why does the GFP probe detect the unspliced transcript so poorly? 

      The fully spliced endogenous OGT mRNA is ~5.5 kb while the fully spliced reporter is only ~1.6kb, so the difference in size (the apparent shift relative to the mRNA) is quite different. Moreover, the two panels in Fig 2c are not precisely scaled to one another, so direct comparisons cannot be made. 

      The intron retained isoform does not accumulate to high levels in this reporter, a phenotype that we also observed with our GFP reporter designed to probe the regulation of the MAT2A retained intron (Scarborough et al., 2021). We are not certain about the reason for these observations, but suspect that the reporter RNA’s retained intron isoforms are less stable in the nucleus than their endogenous counterparts. Alternatively, the lack of splicing may affect 3´ processing of the transcripts so that they do not accumulate to the high levels observed for the wild-type genes. 

      (3) Please provide more information about the RNA-seq experiments. How many replicates were performed under each of the various conditions? The methods section says three replicates were performed for the UPF1/TG experiments; was this also true for the SFSWAP experiments?  

      All RNA-seq experiments were performed in biological triplicates. We have edited the methods section to clarify this.

      (4) Relatedly, the several IGV screenshots shown in Figure 3C presumably represent the triplicate RNA seq experiments. In part D, how many experiments does the data represent? Is it a compilation of three experiments? 

      Fig. 3d is derived from alternate splicing analysis performed on three biological replicates. We have added the number of replicates (n=3) on the figure to clarify this. We have also noted that the three IGV tracks represent biological replicates in the Figure legend for 3c.  

      (5) Please provide more details regarding the qRT-PCR experiments. 

      We have provided the positions of primer sets used for RT-qPCR analysis and cartoon depictions of target sites below the data wherever appropriate.

      (6) In the discussion of decoy exon function (in the Discussion section), several relevant observations are cited to support a model in which decoy exons promote assembly of splicing factors. One might also cite the finding that eCLIP profiling has found enriched binding of U2AF1 and U2AF2 at the 5' splice site region of decoy exons (reference 16). 

      Excellent point. This has now been added to the Discussion. 

      Minor corrections / clarifications: 

      (1) In the Figure 2A legend, CRISPR is misspelled. 

      Corrected.

      (2) In the discussion, the phrase "indirectly inhibits splicing of exons 4 and 5, but promoting stable unproductive assembly of the spliceosome", the word "but" should probably be "by". 

      Corrected.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The paper develops a phase method to obtain the excitatory and inhibitory afferents to certain neuron populations in the brainstem. The inferred contributions are then compared to the results of voltage clamp and current clamp experiments measuring the synaptic contributions to post-I, aug-E, and ramp-I neurons.

      Strengths:

      The electrophysiology part of the paper is sound and reports novel features with respect to earlier work by JC Smith et al 2012, Paton et al 2022 (and others) who have mapped circuits of the respiratory central pattern generator. Measurements on ramp-I neurons, late-I neurons, and two types of post-I neurons in Figure 2 besides measurements of synaptic inputs to these neurons in Figure 5 are to my knowledge new.

      Weaknesses:

      The phase method for inferring synaptic conductances fails to convince. The method rests on many layers of assumptions and the inferred connections in Figure 4 remain speculative. 

      We hope that the additional method justifications now incorporated in the manuscript will make our method more convincing and change this reviewer’s opinion.

      To be convincing, such a method ought to be tested first on a model CPG with known connectivity to assess how good it is at inferring known connections back from the analysis of spatio-temporal oscillations. 

      We respectfully disagree with this critique. Existing respiratory CPG models are based on a conductance-based formalism. Since the neurons recorded using our approach are typically hyperpolarized, in the model at the corresponding values of the membrane potential, all voltage-gated channels will be deactivated. Therefore, the current balance equation used in this study will closely align with the descriptions used in these models. This alignment will result in a near-exact correspondence between the synaptic conductance values inferred by our method and their model counterparts. However, we believe that such a demonstration, while predetermined to be successful, would not be convincing for a computationally savvy audience.

      For biological data, once the network connectivity has been inferred as claimed, the straightforward validation is to reconstruct the experimental oscillations (Figure 2) noting that Rybak et al (Rybak, Paton Schwaber J. Neurophysiol. 77, 1994 (1997)) have already derived models for the respiratory neurons.

      Running such simulations is beyond the scope of this paper, which focuses on our methods for extracting synaptic conductances during network activity cycles from intracellular recordings. However, the existing, largely speculative, respiratory CPG models can be validated against the "ground truth" of the inferences we present here. To illustrate how our circuit connection motifs elaborate on existing respiratory CPG models, we have now included a combinatorial connectivity model in the manuscript derived from the connectivity motifs in the supplemental figures (Figure 4 Supplemental Figure 1) with comparisons to the model schematic utilized by Rybak, Smith et al. in simulation studies to simulate a rhythmic three-phase respiratory pattern. There are conserved mechanistically important connectivity features between these schematics that it is possible to suggest that our more elaborate connectivity scheme would almost certainly generate the three-phase patterns of neuronal firing and network rhythmic activity.

      The transformation from time to phase space, unlike in the Kuramoto model, is not justified here (Line 94) and is wrong. The underpinning idea that "the synaptic conductances depend on the cycle phase and not on time explicitly" is flawed because synapses have characteristic decay times and delays to response which remain fixed when the period of network oscillations increases. Synaptic properties depend on time and not on phase in the network. 

      The primary assumption of our method is that all variables within the system are periodic functions of time. Therefore, the inputs to the recorded neuron, at minimum, are fully defined by the oscillation's phase. While the transduction of the input into postsynaptic conductance may have its own time dependence, the characteristic timescale of synaptic dynamics (10-20 ms, as suggested by the reviewer) is much smaller than the period of network oscillations. This is certainly true for the test system we are using. This valid assumption of our method is now further clarified in the revised manuscript.

      One major consequence relevant to the present identification of excitatory or inhibitory behaviour, is that it cannot account for change in the behaviour of inhibitory synapses - from inhibitory to excitatory action - when the inhibitory decay time becomes commensurable to the period of network oscillations (Wang & Buzsaki Journal of Neuroscience 16, 6402 (1996), van Vreeswijk et al. J. Comp. Neuroscience 1,313 (1994), Borgers and Kopell Neural Comput. 15, 2003). 

      Our method focuses on recovering synaptic conductances rather than directly measuring presynaptic inputs. The conversion of presynaptic inputs (spike trains) into postsynaptic conductances involves its own time scales. This can lead to complex dynamical effects when synaptic delay or decay times are comparable to the oscillation period. In such cases, although our conductance calculation remains accurate, we might misinterpret the phase of the presynaptic input, as it may not align with the phase of the postsynaptic conductance peak. However, this discrepancy is not significant for applications where the synaptic delay/decay times are considerably shorter than the oscillation period.

      In addition, even small delays in the inhibitory synapse response relative to the pre-synaptic action potential also produce in-phase synchronization (Chauhan et al., Sci. Rep. 8, 11431 (2018); Borgers and Kopell, Neural Comput. 15, 509 (2003)). 

      The reviewer is referring to a phenomenon involving interspike synchronization that generates oscillations with very short periods, comparable to synaptic delay times. Our technique, in contrast, is designed for systems of asynchronously firing neurons forming functional populations whose oscillations emerge on a much longer time scale or are driven by periodic stimuli (e.g., sensory input) with a period much longer than the interspike intervals of individual neurons. The time scale difference we are addressing in our test system is two orders of magnitude.

      The present assumptions are way too simplistic because you cannot account for these commensurability effects with a single parameter like the network phase. There is therefore little confidence that this model can reliably distinguish excitatory from inhibitory synapses when their dynamic properties are not properly taken into account.

      As we explained in our previous responses, in our test system, we can reliably resolve post-synaptic conductance variations at 1/100th of the oscillation period. This is due to a >100X time scale difference between the oscillation period and the synaptic/membrane decay time constants. The efficiency of our method in other systems may vary depending on the relationship between the membrane time constant and the oscillation period. The text now provides a clearer discussion of the method's resolution.

      To interpret post-synaptic conductance profiles in terms of presynaptic inputs (e.g., to reconstruct connectivity), one should consider the input-to-conductance transduction processes.We did not aim to provide a general solution for this step in our paper (hence the title) as these processes may differ for different neurotransmitter systems and involve individual dynamics. However, in our test system, as discussed, the oscillation period is much longer than the synaptic decay times of the fast-acting neurotransmitters involved (i.e., glutamate, glycine, and GABA). This means that the possible phase difference between presynaptic neuronal activity and the corresponding postsynaptic conductances is negligible. This allows for a straightforward interpretation of conductance profiles in terms of the functional connectivity of the network. In other systems, the situation may, of course, be different and additional efforts for inferring the presynaptic activity from postsynaptic conductance profiles may be necessary.

      Line 82, Equation 1 makes extremely crude assumptions that the displacement current (CdV/dt) is negligible and that the ion channel currents are all negligible. Vm(t) is also not defined. The assumption that the activation/inactivation times of all ion channels are small compared to the 10-20ms decay time of synaptic currents is not true in general. Same for the displacement current. The leak conductance is typically g~0.05-0.09ms/cm^2 while C~1uF/cm^2. Therefore the ratio C/g leak is in the 10-20ms range - the same as the typical docking neurotransmitter time in synapses.

      We have explicitly included capacitive current in the model formulation and described the time scale separation requirement that justifies our approach. Additionally, we now explain within the text that the current injection protocol involves hyperpolarizing the recorded neuron to ensure voltage-dependent currents remain deactivated during the recording. The remarkable linearity of the current-voltage relationships observed in the vast majority of recorded neurons provides post-hoc evidence supporting this assumption. For further details, please refer to our responses to Reviewer 2 and Figure 1 Supplemental Figure 1 as an example.

      Models of brainstem CPG circuits have been known to exist for decades: JC Smith et al 2012, Paton et al 2022, Bellingham Clin. Exp. Pharm. And Physiol. 25, 847 (1998); Rubin et al., J. Neurophysiol. 101, 2146 (2009) among others. The present paper does not discuss existing knowledge on respiratory networks and gives the impression of reinventing the wheel from scratch. How will this paper add to existing knowledge?

      We appreciate this comment, and in fact, in the original submitted version of this manuscript, we discussed existing knowledge of respiratory networks, but there was editorial concern that this material was above and beyond the technical aspects that we were trying to convey and therefore may detract from the paper as a technical submission. To strike a balance, we have re-incorporated some of this material in abbreviated form into the Discussion section “Implications of reconstructed synaptic conductance profiles for respiratory functional circuit architecture”.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      By measuring intracellular changes in membrane voltage from a single neuron of the medulla the authors describe a method for determining the balance of excitatory and inhibitory synaptic drive onto a single neuron within this important brain region.

      Strengths:

      This approach could be valuable in describing the microcircuits that generate rhythms within this respiratory control centre. This method could more generally be used to enable microcircuits to be studied without the need for time-consuming anatomical tracing or other more involved electrophysiological techniques.

      Weaknesses:

      This approach involves assuming the reversal potential that is associated with the different permeant ions that underlie the excitation and inhibition as well as the application of Ohms law to estimate the contribution of excitation and inhibitory conductance. My first concern is that this approach relies on a linear I-V relationship between the measured voltage and the estimated reversal potential. However, open rectification is a feature of any I-V relationship generated by asymmetric distributions of ions (see the GHK current equation) and will therefore be a particular issue for the inhibition resulting from asymmetrical Cl- ion gradients across GABA-A receptors. The mixed cation conductance that underlies most synaptic excitation will also generate a non-linear I-V relationship due to the inward rectification associated with the polyamine block of AMPA receptors. Could the authors please speculate what impact these non-linearities could have on results obtained using their approach?

      In our Figure 1 Supplemental Figure 1, we illustrated that I-V relationships for each particular phase of the cycle (except for transitions between inspiration and expiration where our error estimates are greatest) are remarkably linear. 

      In Author response iamge 1 we compare the I-V dependence for Cl- as predicted by the GHK equation and its linear approximation using constant conductance and the Cl- Nernst potential. One can see that in the typical range of voltages used (shown by solid black vertical lines), the linear approximation appears quite adequate.

      Author response image 1.

      This approach has similarities to earlier studies undertaken in the visual cortex that estimated the excitatory and inhibitory synaptic conductance changes that contributed to membrane voltage changes during receptive field stimulation. However, these approaches also involved the recording of transmembrane current changes during visual stimulation that were undertaken in voltage-clamp at various command voltages to estimate the underlying conductance changes. Molkov et al have attempted to essentially deconvolve the underlying conductance changes without this information and I am concerned that this simply may not be possible. 

      This was why we compared the results of our reconstructions applied to current- and voltage-clamp recordings from the same neurons and we found, as illustrated, that the synaptic conductance profiles are qualitatively identical with both techniques.

      The current balance equation (1) cited in this study is based on the parallel conductance model developed by Hodgkin & Huxley. However, one key element of the HH equations is the inclusion of an estimate of the capacitive current generated due to the change in voltage across the membrane capacitance. I would always consider this to be the most important motivation for the development of the voltage-clamp technique in the 1930's. Indeed, without subtraction of the membrane capacitance, it is not possible to isolate the transmembrane current in the way that previous studies have done. In the current study, I feel it is important that the voltage change due to capacitive currents is taken into consideration in some way before the contribution of the underlying conductance changes are inferred.

      We have incorporated the capacitive current into the initial model formulation and established explicit requirements for time scale separation. These requirements justify the application of our method. Specifically, the membrane time constant (C/g ~ 10ms in our test system) must be substantially shorter than the period of network oscillations (T ~ 2s in our test system). Under this condition, aggregate variations in synaptic conductances can be considered slow, allowing us to treat membrane voltage as being in instantaneous equilibrium. This defines the time resolution of our method. Please refer to our responses to Reviewer 1 and the revised manuscript text for a more detailed explanation.

      Studies using acute slicing preparations to examine circuit effects have often been limited to the study of small microcircuits - especially feedforward and feedback interneuron circuits. It is widely accepted that any information gained from this approach will always be compromised by the absence of patterned afferent input from outside the brain region being studied. In this study, descending control from the Pons and the neocortex will not be contributing much to the synaptic drive and ascending information from respiratory muscles will also be absent completely. This may not have been such a major concern if this study was limited to demonstrating the feasibility of a methodological approach. However, this limitation does need to be considered when using an approach of this type to speculate on the prevalence of specific circuit motifs within the medulla (Figure 4). Therefore, I would argue that some discussion of this limitation should be included in this manuscript.

      Our experimental brainstem-spinal cord in situ preparation does include important inputs from the pons that are necessary to generate the 3-phase respiratory pattern (e.g., Smith et al. (2013). Brainstem respiratory networks: building blocks and microcircuits. Trends Neurosci, 36(3), 152-162), but we agree that other inputs such as from midbrain and cortex as well as important peripheral afferents are absent, and we have now noted this limitation in the text at the end of the new section “Implications of reconstructed synaptic conductance profiles for respiratory functional circuit architecture“. We show specific circuit motifs simply to illustrate how our readout of synaptic conductances from single neurons and the information on the main neuronal activity patterns in our experimental preparation can be interpreted. We thought that it would be useful to illustrate and interpret inferred connectivity motifs as an output of our methodological approach. As we now discuss in the section “Implications of reconstructed synaptic conductance profiles for respiratory functional circuit architecture” in response to Reviewer #1, our circuit motifs are consistent with some sets of connections that have been speculated in the literature, but they also provide some novel information about connectivity that we have been able to infer for respiratory circuits from the complex sets of synaptic conductances indicated by our approach. 

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Major comments:

      (1) My recommendation is to clarify how each neuron population was identified. Individual populations are very hard to identify based on morphology alone in brain slices such as Supplemental Figure 1. I assume the authors identified each population based on their phase difference relative to the inspiratory pulse in the phrenic nerve. This ought to be clarified. 

      Neuronal populations were classified based on their firing patterns within the respiratory cycle. Immunohistochemistry was only used for post-hoc identification of the transmitter phenotype in select neurons. Specifically, recorded neurons were categorized according to the phase range of the respiratory cycle in which they fired and their firing pattern during that range. For example, neurons firing during inspiration (synchronously with the phrenic nerve) with a progressively increasing firing rate were classified as ramp-I, etc., as illustrated in the figure depicting phase-dependent firing patterns. This classification is detailed in the "Firing patterns of respiratory interneurons" sub-section.

      It would also be beneficial to discuss the benefits and limitations of using this preparation relative to brainstem slices and in-vivo preparations (e.g. Moraes et al. J. Physiol. 599, 3237 (2021)) for measuring live network activity.

      We provided the reference to an important recent review (Paton et al. 2022, Advancing respiratory-cardiovascular physiology with the working heart-brainstem preparation over 25 years. J Physiol, 600(9), 2049-2075) on the benefits and limitations of using the in situ rodent brainstem-spinal cord preparation employed in our study. 

      (2) The background on inference methods is similarly thin. The works in line 47 are mainly experimental characterizations of excitatory and inhibitory cells. Techniques for estimating network conductances/parameters ought to be covered. One reference that comes to mind: Armstrong, E. Statistical data assimilation for estimating electrophysiology simultaneously with connectivity within a biological neuronal network. Physical Review E 101, 012415, 2020.

      Our technique is not intended to estimate synaptic connections between neurons from paired recordings. Instead, we calculate the dynamics of inhibitory and excitatory synaptic conductances that result from many concurrent synaptic inputs representing aggregate activities of the functionally interacting populations. The previous studies that we cited are the ones that have direct or indirect relation to this paradigm. 

      (3) How the "patterns of synaptic conductances" in phase diagrams imply the network connectivity (l.244) is not clear. Are the patterns of "activity patterns" depicted in Figure 2 the only neuron populations driving the postsynaptic neurons in Figure 4? 

      Figure 2 shows all of the basic firing patterns that we have recorded in our experimental preparation. So, yes, assuming that all periodic inputs in this network originate from within the network, those 6 populations are the main sources of the corresponding patterns.

      The methodology for constructing the networks is unclear, 

      This is explained in detail in the section "Synaptic Conductances and Functional Connectome of Respiratory Interneurons". Specifically, when a neuron with a given firing pattern (and thus belonging to a corresponding population, e.g., pre-I/I) exhibits excitatory or inhibitory conductance during a particular phase of the respiratory cycle (e.g., inhibition during the first half of expiration, as in Figure 3A1), we infer that the population with the same firing pattern receives input from a population with an activity pattern matching the postsynaptic conductance profile (e.g., the pre-I/I population receives post-I inhibition, as in Figure 4A1).

      yet 6 lines later (l.251) the narrative jumps to the conclusion that "the information on inhibitory transmitter phenotypes...indeed corroborates that subsets of the presynaptic neurons are inhibitory" and further "conductance profiles, which gives additional confidence in the correlation between pre-synaptic firing patterns and likely post-synaptic interactions". The method also blends in empirical information from immune labelling. It is unclear what method can actually infer on its own.

      The functional connections that we were able to infer implied that neurons with specific firing patterns (e.g., post-I neurons) must include neurons with specific transmitter phenotypes (e.g., inhibitory). Immune labeling results were used to show that there are indeed neurons having corresponding firing patterns and neurotransmitter phenotypes. It has nothing to do with the inference method. It just shows that our assumption about various inhibitory inputs originating from within the network is plausible.

      (4) Figure 3 - why does the Early-I population which is connected by the same mutually inhibitory links as Post-I and Aug-E within the respiratory CPG have the opposite conductance activation sequence as post-I and aug-E. Namely, it receives excitatory input at phases 0,1,2 when post-I and aug-E receive inhibitory input?

      We added the section “Implications of reconstructed synaptic conductance profiles for respiratory functional circuit architecture” discussing the correspondence and inconsistencies between our findings and existing respiratory CPG models (see Figure 4 Supplemenntal Figure 1). For this specific question, phase 0, 1 and 2 represent the same phase of the respiratory cycle corresponding to a transition from expiration to inspiration. According to the Rybak et al. models, the early-I population receives excitation from the pre-I/I population which is active at the E-I transition and throughout the entire inspiratory phase of the cycle. This is largely consistent with our findings shown in Figure 3. Also, according to Rybak et al., post-I and aug-E populations are inhibited by early-I neurons, which is also consistent with inspiratory inhibition in all examples of these neurons that we show in Figure 3. As noted in other responses to the reviewers’ comments, we have now discussed in the “Implications of reconstructed synaptic conductance profiles for respiratory functional circuit architecture” which covers some comparisons to previously inferred connectivity in the respiratory network.

      Minor comments:

      (1) l.39 - The terminology "patterns of inhibitory and excitatory synaptic conductances" used throughout the manuscript (l.66, 241, 244, 259...) is vague.

      We defined this terminology in the updated version.

      (2) Figure 1 what is the integration time of the moving median in Figure 1a?

      0.1s. Now included in the figure legend.

      (3) L.128 "rhythmic inspiratory neuron" which one is this post-I, aug-E, early-I?

      This example demonstrates a pre-I/I firing pattern, as the neuron begins firing slightly before the phrenic burst and continues throughout inspiration (as defined by phrenic nerve activity). However, this is merely an arbitrary example used to illustrate the methodology. The actual firing pattern of the recorded neuron is not considered in any way for synaptic conductance inference.

      (4) Figure 3 What the panel labelling means A1, B1, A2, etc. is not disclosed in the caption.

      These labels are used in the text to refer to specific examples. Now it is explained in the caption that the letter corresponds to the firing phenotype indicated on the top of each column and the digit refers to the example number.

      (5) L.129/ L.133 - the diagram of the medulla in Supplementary Figure 1 ought to be inserted early on in the main text when introducing the respiratory CPG, phrenic and vagal signals.

      This is a good suggestion and we have linked this figure specifically to Figure 2 as Figure 2 Supplemental Figure 1 in the main text to better orient readers.

      (6) L. 457 - Reference needed on reversal potentials.

      We report what we observed, so it is unclear what reference the reviewer means.

    1. Author Response:

      The following is the authors' response to the original reviews.

      Reply to Public Reviews:

      Reply to Reviewer #1:

      This is a carefully performed and well-documented study to indicate that the FUS protein interacts with the GGGGCC repeat sequence in Drosophila fly models, and the mechanism appears to include modulating the repeat structure and mitigating RAN translation. They suggest FUS, as well as a number of other G-quadruplex binding RNA proteins, are RNA chaperones, meaning they can alter the structure of the expanded repeat sequence to modulate its biological activities.

      Response: We would like to thank the reviewer for her/his time for evaluating our manuscript. We are very happy to see the reviewer for highly appreciating our manuscript.

      1. Overall this is a nicely done study with nice quantitation. It remains somewhat unclear from the data and discussions in exactly what way the authors mean that FUS is an RNA chaperone: is FUS changing the structure of the repeat or does FUS binding prevent it from folding into alternative in vivo structure?

      Response: We appreciate the reviewer’s constructive comments. Indeed, we showed that FUS changes the higher-order structures of GGGGCC [G4C2] repeat RNA in vitro, and that FUS suppresses G4C2 RNA foci formation in vivo. According to the established definition of RNA chaperone, RNA chaperones are proteins changing the structures of misfolded RNAs without ATP use, resulting in the maintenance of proper RNAs folding (Rajkowitsich et al., 2007). Thus, we consider that FUS is classified into RNA chaperone. To clarify these interpretations, we revised the manuscript as follows.

      (1) On page 10, line 215-219, the sentence “These results were in good agreement with our previous study on SCA31 showing the suppressive effects of FUS and other RBPs on RNA foci formation of UGGAA repeat RNA as RNA chaperones …” was changed to “These results were in good agreement with … RNA foci formation of UGGAA repeat RNA through altering RNA structures and preventing aggregation of misfolded repeat RNA as RNA chaperones …”.

      (2) On page 17, line 363-366, the sentence “FUS directly binds to G4C2 repeat RNA and modulates its G-quadruplex structure, as evident by CD and NMR analyses (Figure 5), suggesting its functional role as an RNA chaperone.” was changed to “FUS directly binds to G4C2 repeat RNA and modulates its G-quadruplex structure as evident by CD and NMR analyses (Figure 5, Figure 5—figure supplement 2), and suppresses RNA foci formation in vivo (Figures 3A and 3B), suggesting its functional role as an RNA chaperone.”

      Reply to Reviewer #2:

      Fuijino et al. provide interesting data describing the RNA-binding protein, FUS, for its ability to bind the RNA produced from the hexanucleotide repeat expansion of GGGGCC (G4C2). This binding correlates with reductions in the production of toxic dipeptides and reductions in toxic phenotypes seen in (G4C2)30+ expressing Drosophila. Both FUS and G4C2 repeats of >25 are associated with ALS/FTD spectrum disorders. Thus, these data are important for increasing our understanding of potential interactions between multiple disease genes. However, further validation of some aspects of the provided data is needed, especially the expression data.

      Response: We would like to thank the reviewer for her/his time for evaluating our manuscript and also for her/his important comments that helped to strengthen our manuscript.

      Some points to consider when reading the work:

      1. The broadly expressed GMR-GAL4 driver leads to variable tissue loss in different genotypes, potentially confounding downstream analyses dependent on viable tissue/mRNA levels.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for this constructive comment. In the RT-qPCR experiments (Figures 1E, 3C, 4G, 6D and Figure 1—figure supplement 1C), the amounts of G4C2 repeat transcripts were normalized to those of gal4 transcripts expressed in the same tissue, to avoid potential confounding derived from the difference in tissue viability between genotypes, as the reviewer pointed out. To clarify this process, we have made the following change to the revised manuscript.

      (1) On page 30, line 548-550, the sentence “The amounts of G4C2 repeat transcripts were normalized to those of gal4 transcripts in the same sample” was changed to “The amounts of G4C2 repeat transcripts were normalized to those of gal4 transcripts expressed in the same tissue to avoid potential confounding derived from the difference in tissue viability between genotypes”.

      2. The relationship between FUS and foci formation is unclear and should be interpreted carefully.

      Response: We appreciate the reviewer’s important comment. We apologize for the lack of clarity. We showed the relationship between FUS and RNA foci formation in our C9-ALS/FTD fly, that is, FUS suppresses RNA foci formation (Figures 3A and 3B), and knockdown of endogenous caz, a Drosophila homologue of FUS, enhanced it conversely (Figures 4E and 4F). We consider that FUS suppresses RNA foci formation through altering RNA structures and preventing aggregation of misfolded G4C2 repeat RNA as an RNA chaperone. To clarify these interpretations, we revised the manuscript as follows.

      (1) On page 10, line 215-219, the sentence “These results were in good agreement with our previous study on SCA31 showing the suppressive effects of FUS and other RBPs on RNA foci formation of UGGAA repeat RNA as RNA chaperones …” was changed to “These results were in good agreement with … RNA foci formation of UGGAA repeat RNA through altering RNA structures and preventing aggregation of misfolded repeat RNA as RNA chaperones …”.

      (2) On page 17, line 363-366, the sentence “FUS directly binds to G4C2 repeat RNA and modulates its G-quadruplex structure, as evident by CD and NMR analyses (Figure 5), suggesting its functional role as an RNA chaperone.” was changed to “FUS directly binds to G4C2 repeat RNA and modulates its G-quadruplex structure as evident by CD and NMR analyses (Figure 5, Figure 5—figure supplement 2), and suppresses RNA foci formation in vivo (Figures 3A and 3B), suggesting its functional role as an RNA chaperone.”

      Reply to Reviewer #3:

      In this manuscript Fujino and colleagues used C9-ALS/FTD fly models to demonstrate that FUS modulates the structure of (G4C2) repeat RNA as an RNA chaperone, and regulates RAN translation, resulting in the suppression of neurodegeneration in C9-ALS/FTD. They also confirmed that FUS preferentially binds to and modulates the G-quadruplex structure of (G4C2) repeat RNA, followed by the suppression of RAN translation. The potential significance of these findings is high since C9ORF72 repeat expansion is the most common genetic cause of ALS/FTD, especially in Caucasian populations and the DPR proteins have been considered the major cause of the neurodegenerations.

      Response: We would like to thank the reviewer for her/his time for evaluating our manuscript. We are grateful to the reviewer for the insightful comments, which were very helpful for us to improve the manuscript.

      1. While the effect of RBP as an RNA chaperone on (G4C2) repeat expansion is supposed to be dose-dependent according to (G4C2)n RNA expression, the first experiment of the screening for RBPs in C9-ALS/FTD flies lacks this concept. It is uncertain if the RBPs of the groups "suppression (weak)" and "no effect" were less or no ability of RNA chaperone or if the expression of the RBP was not sufficient, and if the RBPs of the group "enhancement" exacerbated the toxicity derived from (G4C2)89 RNA or the expression of the RBP was excessive. The optimal dose of any RBPs that bind to (G4C2) repeats may be able to neutralize the toxicity without the reduction of (G4C2)n RNA.

      Response: We appreciate the reviewer’s constructive comments. We employed the site-directed transgenesis for the establishment of RBP fly lines, to ensure the equivalent expression levels of the inserted transgenes. We also evaluated the toxic effects of overexpressed RBPs themselves by crossbreeding with control EGFP flies, showing in Figure 1A. To clarify them, we have made the following changes to the revised manuscript.

      (1) On page 8, line 166-168, the sentence “The variation in the effects of these G4C2 repeat-binding RBPs on G4C2 repeat-induced toxicity may be due to their different binding affinities to G4C2 repeat RNA, and their different roles in RNA metabolism.” was changed to “The variation in the effects of these G4C2 repeat-binding RBPs on G4C2 repeat-induced toxicity may be due to their different binding affinities to G4C2 repeat RNA, and the different toxicity of overexpressed RBPs themselves.”.

      (2) On page 29, line 519-522, the sentence “By employing site-specific transgenesis using the pUASTattB vector, each transgene was inserted into the same locus of the genome, and was expected to be expressed at the equivalent levels.” was added.

      2. In relation to issue 1, the rescue effect of FUS on the fly expressing (G4C2)89 (FUS-4) in Figure 4-figure supplement 1 seems weaker than the other flies expressing both FUS and (G4C2)89 in Figure 1 and Figure 1-figure supplement 2. The expression level of both FUS protein and (G4C2)89 RNA in each line is important from the viewpoint of therapeutic strategy for C9-ALS/FTD.

      Response: We appreciate the reviewer’s important comment. The FUS-4 transgene is expected to be expressed at the equivalent level to the FUS-3 transgene, since they are inserted into the same locus of the genome by the site-directed transgenesis. Thus, we suppose that the weaker suppressive effect of FUS-4 coexpression on G4C2 repeat-induced eye degeneration can be attributed to the C-terminal FLAG tag that is fused to FUS protein expressed in FUS-4 fly line. Since the caz fly expresses caz protein also fused to FLAG tag at the C-terminus, we used this FUS-4 fly line to directly compare the effect of caz on G4C2 repeat-induced toxicity to that of FUS.

      3. While hallmarks of C9ORF72 are the presence of DPRs and the repeat-containing RNA foci, the loss of function of C9ORF72 is also considered to somehow contribute to neurodegeneration. It is unclear if FUS reduces not only the DPRs but also the protein expression of C9ORF72 itself.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for this comment. We agree that not only DPRs, but also toxic repeat RNA and the loss-of-function of C9ORF72 jointly contribute to the pathomechanisms of C9-ALS/FTD. Since Drosophila has no homolog corresponding to the human C9orf72 gene, the effect of FUS on C9orf72 expression cannot be assessed. Our fly models are useful for evaluating gain-of-toxic pathomechanisms such as RNA foci formation and RAN translation, and the association between FUS and loss-of function of C9ORF72 is beyond the scope of this study.

      4. In Figure 5E-F, it cannot be distinguished whether FUS binds to GGGGCC repeats or the 5' flanking region. The same experiment should be done by using FUS-RRMmut to elucidate whether FUS binding is the major mechanism for this translational control. Authors should show that FUS binding to long GGGGCC repeats is important for RAN translation.

      Response: We would like to thank the reviewer for these insightful comments. Following the reviewer’s suggestion, we perform in vitro translation assay again using FUS-RRMmut, which loses the binding ability to G4C2 repeat RNA as evident by the filter binding assay (Figure 5A), instead of BSA. The results are shown in the figures of Western blot analysis below. The addition of FUS to the translation system suppressed the expression levels of GA-Myc efficiently, whereas that of FUS-RRMmut did not. FUS decreased the expression level of GA-Myc at as low as 10nM, and nearly eliminated RAN translation activity at 100nM. At 400nM, FUS-RRMmut weakly suppressed the GA-Myc expression levels probably because of the residual RNA-binding activity. These results suggest that FUS suppresses RAN translation in vitro through direct interactions with G4C2 repeat RNA.

      Unfortunately, RAN translation from short G4C2 repeat RNA was not investigated in our translation system, although the previous study reported the low efficacy of RAN translation from short G4C2 repeat RNA (Green et al., 2017).

      Author response image 1.

      (A) Western blot analysis of the GA-Myc protein in the samples from in vitro translation. (B) Quantification of the GA-Myc protein levels.

      We have made the following changes to the revised manuscript.

      (1) Figure 5F was replaced to new Figures 5F and 5G.

      (2) On page 14-15, line 326-330, the sentence “Notably, the addition of FUS to this system decreased the expression level of GA-Myc in a dose-dependent manner, whereas the addition of the control bovine serum albumin (BSA) did not (Figure 5F).” was changed to “Notably, upon the addition to this translation system, FUS suppressed RAN translation efficiently, whereas FUS-RRMmut did not. FUS decreased the expression levels of GA-Myc at as low as 10nM, and nearly eliminated RAN translation activity at 100nM. At 400nM, FUS-RRMmut weakly suppressed the GA-Myc expression levels probably because of the residual RNA-binding activity (Figure 5F and 5G).”.

      (3) On page 15, line 330-332, the sentence “Taken together, these results indicate that FUS suppresses RAN translation from G4C2 repeat RNA in vitro as an RNA chaperone.” was changed to “Taken together, these results indicate that FUS suppresses RAN translation in vitro through direct interactions with G4C2 repeat RNA as an RNA chaperone.”.

      (4) On page 37, line 720-723, the sentence “For preparation of the FUS protein, the human FUS (WT) gene flanked at the 5¢ end with an Nde_I recognition site and at the 3¢ end with a _Xho_I recognition site was amplified by PCR from pUAST-_FUS.” was changed to “For preparation of the FUS proteins, the human FUS (WT) and FUS-RRMmut genes flanked at the 5¢ end with an Nde_I recognition site and at the 3¢ end with a _Xho_I recognition site was amplified by PCR from pUAST-_FUS and pUAST- FUS-RRMmut, respectively.”.

      (5) On page 41, line 816-819, the sentence “FUS or BSA at each concentration (10, 100, and 1,000 nM) was added for translation in the lysate.” was changed to “FUS or FUS-RRMmut at each concentration (10, 100, 200, 400, and 1,000 nM) was preincubated with mRNA for 10 min to facilitate the interaction between FUS protein and G4C2 repeat RNA, and added for translation in the lysate.”.

      5. It is not possible to conclude, as the authors have, that G-quadruplex-targeting RBPs are generally important for RAN translation (Figure 6), without showing whether RBPs that do not affect (G4C2)89 RNA levels lead to decreased DPR protein level or RNA foci.

      Response: We appreciate the reviewer’s critical comment. Following the suggestion by the reviewer, we evaluate the effect of these G-quadruplex-targeting RBPs on RAN translation. We additionally performed immunohistochemistry of the eye imaginal discs of fly larvae expressing (G4C2)89 and these G-quadruplex-targeting RBPs. As shown in the figures of immunohistochemistry below, we found that coexpression of EWSR1, DDX3X, DDX5, and DDX17 significantly decreased the number of poly(GA) aggregates. The results suggest that these G-quadruplex-targeting RBPs regulate RAN translation as well as FUS.

      Author response image 2.

      (A) Immunohistochemistry of poly(GA) in the eye imaginal discs of fly larvae expressing (G4C2)89 and the indicated G-quadruplex-targeting RBPs. (B) Quantification of the number of poly(GA) aggregates.

      We have made the following changes to the revised manuscript.

      (1) Figures 6E and 6F were added.

      (2) On page 6-7, line 135-137, the sentence “In addition, other G-quadruplex-targeting RBPs also suppressed G4C2 repeat-induced toxicity in our C9-ALS/FTD flies.” was changed to “In addition, other G-quadruplex-targeting RBPs also suppressed RAN translation and G4C2 repeat-induced toxicity in our C9-ALS/FTD flies.”.

      (3) On page 15, line 344-346, the sentence “As expected, these RBPs also decreased the number of poly(GA) aggregates in the eye imaginal discs (Figures 6E and 6F).” was added.

      (4) On page 15, line 346-347, the sentence “Their effects on G4C2 repeat-induced toxicity and repeat RNA expression were consistent with those of FUS.” was changed to “Their effects on G4C2 repeat-induced toxicity, repeat RNA expression, and RAN translation were consistent with those of FUS.”

      (5) On page 16, line 355-357, the sentence “Thus, some G-quadruplex-targeting RBPs regulate G4C2 repeat-induced toxicity by binding to and possibly by modulating the G-quadruplex structure of G4C2 repeat RNA.” was changed to “Thus, some G-quadruplex-targeting RBPs regulate RAN translation and G4C2 repeat-induced toxicity by binding to and possibly by modulating the G-quadruplex structure of G4C2 repeat RNA.”

      (6) On page 19, line 417-421, the sentence “We further found that G-quadruplex-targeting RNA helicases, including DDX3X, DDX5, and DDX17, which are known to bind to G4C2 repeat RNA (Cooper-Knock et al., 2014; Haeusler et al., 2014; Mori et al., 2013a; Xu et al., 2013), also alleviate G4C2 repeat-induced toxicity without altering the expression levels of G4C2 repeat RNA in our Drosophila models.” was changed to “We further found that G-quadruplex-targeting RNA helicases, … ,also suppress RAN translation and G4C2 repeat-induced toxicity without altering the expression levels of G4C2 repeat RNA in our Drosophila models.”.

      Reply to Recommendations For The Authors:

      1) It is not clear from the start that the flies they generated with the repeat have an artificial vs human intronic sequence ahead of the repeat. It would be nice if they presented somewhere the entire sequence of the insert. The reason being that it seems they also tested flies with the human intronic sequence, and the effect may not be as strong (line 234). In any case, in the future, with a new understanding of RAN translation, it would be nice to compare different transgenes, and so as much transparency as possible would be helpful regarding sequences. Can they include these data?

      Response: We thank the editors and reviewers for this comment. We apologize for the lack of clarity. We used artificially synthesized G4C2 repeat sequences when generating constructs for (G4C2)n transgenic flies, so these constructs do not contain human intronic sequence ahead of the G4C2 repeat in the C9orf72 gene, as explained in the Materials and Methods section. To clarify the difference between our C9-ALS/FTD fly models and LDS-(G4C2)44GR-GFP fly model (Goodman et al., 2019), we have made the following change to the revised manuscript.

      (1) Schema of the LDS-(G4C2)44GR-GFP construct was presented in Figure 3—figure supplement 1.

      Furthermore, to maintain transparency of the study, we have provided the entire sequence of the insert as the following source file.

      (2) The artificial sequences inserted in the pUAST vector for generation of the (G4C2)n flies were presented in Figure 1—figure supplement 1—source data 1.

      2) It is really nice how they quantitated everything and showed individual data points.

      Response: We thank the editors and reviewers for appreciating our data analysis method. All individual data points and statistical analyses are summarized in source data files.

      3) So when they call FUS an RNA chaperone, are they simply meaning it is changing the structure of the repeat, or could it just be interacting with the repeat to coat the repeat and prevent it from folding into whatever in vivo structures? Can they speculate on why some RNA chaperones lead to presumed decay of the repeat and others do not? Can they discuss these points in the discussion? Detailed mechanistic understanding of RNA chaperones that ultimately promote decay of the repeat might be of highly significant therapeutic benefit.

      Response: We appreciate these critical comments. Indeed, we showed that FUS changes the higher-order structures of G4C2 repeat RNA in vitro, and that FUS suppresses G4C2 RNA foci formation. According to the established definition of RNA chaperone, RNA chaperones are proteins changing the structures of misfolded RNAs without ATP use, resulting in the maintenance of proper RNAs folding (Rajkowitsich et al., 2007). Thus, we consider that FUS is classified into RNA chaperone. To clarify these interpretations, we revised the manuscript as follows.

      (1) On page 10, line 215-219, the sentence “These results were in good agreement with our previous study on SCA31 showing the suppressive effects of FUS and other RBPs on RNA foci formation of UGGAA repeat RNA as RNA chaperones …” was changed to “These results were in good agreement with … RNA foci formation of UGGAA repeat RNA through altering RNA structures and preventing aggregation of misfolded repeat RNA as RNA chaperones …”.

      (2) On page 17, line 363-366, the sentence “FUS directly binds to G4C2 repeat RNA and modulates its G-quadruplex structure, as evident by CD and NMR analyses (Figure 5), suggesting its functional role as an RNA chaperone.” was changed to “FUS directly binds to G4C2 repeat RNA and modulates its G-quadruplex structure as evident by CD and NMR analyses (Figure 5, Figure 5—figure supplement 2), and suppresses RNA foci formation in vivo (Figures 3A and 3B), suggesting its functional role as an RNA chaperone.”

      Besides these RNA chaperones, we observed the expression of IGF2BP1, hnRNPA2B1, DHX9, and DHX36 decreased G4C2 repeat RNA expression levels. In addition, we recently reported that hnRNPA3 reduces G4C2 repeat RNA expression levels, leading to the suppression of neurodegeneration in C9-ALS/FTD fly models (Taminato et al., 2023). We speculate these RBPs could be involved in RNA decay pathways as components of the P-body or interactors with the RNA deadenylation machinery (Tran et al., 2004; Katahira et al., 2008; Geissler et al., 2016; Hubstenberger et al., 2017), possibly contributing to the reduced expression levels of G4C2 repeat RNA. To clarify these interpretations, we revised the manuscript as follows.

      (3) On page 18, line 392-398, the sentences “Similarly, we recently reported that hnRNPA3 reduces G4C2 repeat RNA expression levels, leading to the suppression of neurodegeneration in C9-ALS/FTD fly models (Taminato et al., 2023). Interestingly, these RBPs have been reported to be involved in RNA decay pathways as components of the P-body or interactors with the RNA deadenylation machinery (Tran et al., 2004; Katahira et al., 2008; Geissler et al., 2016; Hubstenberger et al., 2017), possibly contributing to the reduced expression levels of G4C2 repeat RNA.” was added.

      4) What is the level of the G4C2 repeat when they knock down caz? Is it possible that knockdown impacts the expression level of the repeat? Can they show this (or did they and I miss it)?

      Response: We thank the editors and reviewers for this comment. The expression levels of G4C2 repeat RNA in (G4C2)89 flies were not altered by the knockdown of caz, as shown in Figure 4G.

      5) A puzzling point is that FUS is supposed to be nuclear, so where is FUS in the brain in their lines? They suggest it modulates RAN translation, and presumably, that is in the cytoplasm. Is FUS when overexpressed now in part in the cytoplasm? Is the repeat dragging it into the cytoplasm? Can they address this in the discussion? If FUS is never found in vivo in the cytoplasm, then it raises the point that the impact they find of FUS on RAN translation might not reflect an in vivo situation with normal levels of FUS.

      Response: We appreciate these important comments. We agree with the editors and reviewers that FUS is mainly localized in the nucleus. However, FUS is known as a nucleocytoplasmic shuttling RBP that can transport RNA into the cytoplasm. Indeed, FUS is reported to facilitate transport of actin-stabilizing protein mRNAs to function in the cytoplasm (Fujii et al., 2005). Thus, we consider that FUS binds to G4C2 repeat RNA in the cytoplasm and suppresses RAN translation in this study.

      6) When they are using 2 copies of the driver and repeat, are they also using 2 copies of FUS? These are quite high levels of transgenes.

      Response: We thank the editors and reviewers for this comment. We used only 1 copy of FUS when using 2 copies of GMR-Gal4 driver. Full genotypes of the fly lines used in all experiments are described in Supplementary file 1.

      7) In Figure5-S1, FUS colocalizing with (G4C2)RNA is not clear. High-magnification images are recommended.

      Response: We appreciate this constructive comment on the figure. Following the suggestion, high-magnification images are added in Figure 5—figure supplement 1.

      8) I also suggest that the last sentence of the Discussion be revised as follows: Thus, our findings contribute not only to the elucidation of C9-ALS/FTD, but also to the elucidation of the repeat-associated pathogenic mechanisms underlying a broader range of neurodegenerative and neuropsychiatric disorders than previously thought, and it will advance the development of potential therapies for these diseases.

      Response: We appreciate this recommendation. We have made the following change based on the suggested sentence.

      (1) On page 20-21, line 455-459, “Thus, our findings contribute not only towards the elucidation of repeat-associated pathogenic mechanisms underlying a wider range of neuropsychiatric diseases than previously thought, but also towards the development of potential therapies for these diseases.” was changed to “Thus, our findings contribute to the elucidation of the repeat-associated pathogenic mechanisms underlying not only C9-ALS/FTD, but also a broader range of neuromuscular and neuropsychiatric diseases than previously thought, and will advance the development of potential therapies for these diseases.”.

      Authors’ comment on previous eLife assessment:

      We thank the editors and reviewers for appreciating our study. We mainly evaluated the function of human FUS protein on RAN translation and G4C2 repeat-induced toxicity using Drosophila expressing human FUS in vivo, and the recombinant human FUS protein in vitro. To validate that FUS functions as an endogenous regulator of RAN translation, we additionally evaluated the function of Drosophila caz protein as well. We are afraid that the first sentence of the eLife assessment, that is, “This important study demonstrates that the Drosophila FUS protein, the human homolog of which is implicated in amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS) and related conditions, …” is somewhat misleading. We would be happy if you modify this sentence like “This important study demonstrates that the human FUS protein, which is implicated in amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS) and related conditions, …”.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer #1:

      (1) Figure 2 and related text: it would be useful to explain more explicitly what is meant by "neurogenic" and "non-neurogenic" models. I presume that the total number of neurons in non-neurogenic models is lower than in neurogenic models because no new neurons are added. It would be useful to plot the number of GCs as a function of timesteps.

      We have clarified the distinction between neurogenic and non-neurogenic models in the text (Lines 142-145), explicitly noting that in non-neurogenic models, no new GCs are added, resulting in a lower total neuron count over time. In response to the reviewer’s suggestion, we generated a plot showing the number of GCs over time (see below). Because the neurogenic model exhibits a simple linear increase, we found this plot not especially informative for inclusion in the manuscript. However, we agree with the reviewer’s later comments that similar plots are useful for interpreting specific results, and we have included those where appropriate.

      Author response image 1.

      Number of GCs over time for neurogenic (solid line) and non-neurogenic (dotted line) networks

      (2) Figure 2F, G: memory declines dramatically when the number of GCs at enrichment onset increases beyond an optimum. Why?

      We have explained the reasoning more thoroughly in the text (Lines 174-177) and added a new supplemental figure to support this reasoning (Figure S2). As the number of GCs increases, the network becomes overly inhibited and the response of abGCs to the stimuli decreases (Fig S2A). This leads to a smaller population of GCs being able to integrate with the stimulus (Fig S2B) which is expected given the activity-dependent plasticity rule. Moreover, it can be seen in Fig S2C that for networks with increasing size, the GCs that do learn only connect to MCs that are driven strongest by the stimuli until they struggle to connect to any MCs at all.

      In principle, a homeostatic mechanism like synaptic scaling could reduce activity to restore balance, but such a mechanism would also likely disrupt existing memories. Alternatively, we suggest activity-dependent apoptosis as a superior homeostatic mechanism because it leads to a stable level of activity without substantially erasing existing memories.

      (3) The paragraph describing synaptic connectivity of abGCs (related to Figure 2H) is confusing. What is the directionality of synapses considered here: mitral-to-granule, or granule-to-mitral? The text is opaque here. Connectivity matrix in Figure 2H: who is presynaptic, who is postsynaptic? If I understand correctly, these questions are actually irrelevant because all mitralgranule synapses in the network are reciprocal. This should be pointed out explicitly in the figure legend. Generally: the fact that the network is fully reciprocal (if I understand correctly) is very important but not stated with sufficient emphasis. It should be stated very explicitly in the text that connectivity matrices are fully reciprocal, and an equation clarifying this point should be included in Methods.

      (6) Connectivity matrix: to what degree was connectivity between mitral and granule cells reciprocal (fraction of connections in either direction that were paired with a connection in the opposite direction between the same cell pair)? Was connectivity shaped by experience (enrichment) reciprocal?

      (7) Directly related to the above: it would be useful to show the disynaptic connectivity matrix between mitral cells and analyze its symmetry. For the symmetric component, it should then be analyzed what fraction of this can be attributed to the reciprocal synapses, and what fraction is contributed by connectivity via different granule cells. This should then be compared to models with biologically realistic fractions of reciprocal connections. Is the model proposed here consistent with a biologically realistic fraction of reciprocal synapses between mitral-granule cell pairs?

      We appreciate these insightful and detailed comments. We agree that the assumption that MC-GC synapses were fully reciprocal was not clearly stated. We now explicitly state this in the main text (lines 90-94, 369-370, Figure 2 caption) and methods (line 561), emphasize its importance. As the reviewer points out, this is a simplifying assumption and does not fully reflect the biology because not all synapses are reciprocal in the true system. We also note that our synaptic plasticity model does not break the reciprocity assumption: all connections added or pruned during learning remain reciprocal. As a result, the disynaptic connectivity matrix (Bottom panel below, MCs sorted by stimulus as shown in the top panel) is always symmetric.

      We have now made these statements explicit in the main text and in the methods. Regarding functional consequences of this assumption, earlier work by our group has examined the impact of the degree of reciprocity of MC-GC synapses in a similar OB model (Chow, Wick & Riecke, Plos Comp Bio 2012). The study examined three different changes in reciprocity by (1) redirecting a fraction of the inhibitory connections of each GC to randomly chosen MCs instead of the MCs that drive that GC, (2) allowing heterogeneity in reciprocal weights so that there is no relationship between the strength of the MC -> GC synapse and the GC -> MC synapse, (3) reducing the level of self-inhibition a MC receives from the GCs that it excites. The model was found to be quite robust to each of these manipulations, suggesting that our present model likely remains functionally relevant even if biological reciprocity is partial. We reference this work now in the discussion, lines 490-492.

      Author response image 2.

      Disynaptic connectivity. Top: MC activity in response to the two stimuli, sorted by MC selectivity. Bottom: Disynaptic connectivity matrix (diagonal subtracted).

      (4) How were mitral cells sorted in Figure 2H? This needs to be explained.

      (5) Directly related to the point above: the text mentions that synaptic connectivity between GCs of the "learning cluster" and mitral cells (which direction?) is increased for mitral cells responding by enrichment odors, but this is not shown in the figure. This statement suggests that mitral cells sorted to the bottom of the y-axis respond more strongly to enrichment odors, but the information is not given directly. Please provide more information to back up your statements.

      Indeed as the reviewer inferred, MCs in Figure 2H were sorted so that those that receive the strongest stimulation from the odor were at the bottom of the y-axis. We have clarified this in the Figure 2 caption and added a subplot to Figure 2H showing the average MC input to make this more explicit.

      (8) Apoptosis (Figure 4 and related text): paragraph 231ff is somewhat difficult to comprehend because the "number" of enrichments should really be the "frequency" of enrichments. In Figure 4, it is not mentioned explicitly that each enrichment is with different random new odors.

      We agree that the term “number” of enrichments was imprecise and have revised the text to refer instead to the frequency of enrichment events (Lines 255-267). We also clarified that in Figure 4, each enrichment corresponds to a different set of randomly sampled odors, and we now state this explicitly in both the Figure 4 legend and main text (Lines 260-261).

      (9) Apoptosis: apoptosis improves memory but the underlying reason remains opaque. A simple prediction of the data in Figure 4D and 4E is that the number of GCs in 4E. It would be helpful to show this. Furthermore, an obvious question that arises is whether a higher frequency of enrichments improves memories because the total number of granule cells is kept low, or because granule cells are removed specifically based on their activity (or both). This could be addressed easily by artificially removing a random subset of granule cells in a simulation such as 4E to match granule cell numbers to the case in 4D.

      Apoptosis improves learning is because it reduces the total inhibition in the network by removing GCs and thus prevents deficits in learning that occur in Fig. 2G as GCs accumulate in the network. As the reviewer inferred, the number of GCs in Figure 4D is lower than in 4E and this is now clarified in the text. This difference was shown implicitly in Supplementary Figure S4D (previously S3D), but we now explicitly reference this plot to support this point as well (Line 266).

      As the reviewer notes, there is a question in whether increased enrichment frequency improves memory because it limits the total number of GCs, or because apoptosis selectively removes GCs based on their activity, or both. Our model supports both mechanisms. Importantly, simply reducing GC numbers through random deletion will degrade existing memories: random removal erodes memory representations encoded by those GCs. In contrast, our age and activity dependent apoptosis rule targets a specific cohort of adult-born GCs. This selective removal minimizes damage to existing memories encoded by GCs outside of this cohort while keeping GC numbers within a regime that supports robust learning (as shown in Figure 2G).

      However, we note that if enrichment frequency becomes too high, even recent memories can be lost due to premature pruning of GCs that have not yet stabilized their synaptic connections. This tradeoff has been shown experimentally (Forest et al., Nat Comm 2019) which we reproduce in our model (Figure S4).

      (10) Text related to Figure 5: "Learning flexibility...approached a steady state when the growth of the network started to saturate". Please show the growth (better: size) of the network (total number of GCs) for these simulations (and other panels in Figure 5). It would also be useful to show the total number of GCs in other figures (e.g. Figure 4; see above).

      We have now added a supplementary figure (Figure S6) that shows the total number of GCs over time for the simulations presented. This confirms that the network size approaches a steady state around the same time that learning flexibility begins to plateau, as noted in the original text (now line 275), and highlights the large number of GCs without apoptosis as well as the slightly reduced number of GCs in the permanent encoding model (line 312).

      (11) As much as I appreciate the comprehensive discussion of the results in a broader context, I feel that the discussion can be somewhat shortened. The section on lateral inhibition is not fully valid given that synaptic connectivity is reciprocal. I also feel that much of the final section (Model assumptions and outlook) can be dropped (except for the last paragraph), not because anything is irrelevant, but because these points have been made, onen repeatedly, in the text above.

      We agree that the discussion could be streamlined and have revised the manuscript accordingly. Specifically, we have shortened the section on lateral inhibition and clarified that the OB relies predominantly on reciprocal connectivity (Line 370). We also agree that parts of the final section were repetitive and have removed these. However, to address comments by Reviewer 3, we also expanded on some of the model assumptions. We thank the reviewer for helping us improve the clarity and focus of the manuscript.

      (12) Figure 5: bolding every 5th curve is confusing.

      We have adjusted our figure accordingly.

      (13) "...we biased the dendritic field...": it would be helpful to explain the idea of a "dendritic field" in a bit more detail prior to this sentence.

      We have now noted that GC’s "dendritic field" refers to the subset of MCs with which it is capable of forming synaptic connections when we initially describe the model (Line 97).

      Reviewer #3:

      (1) The authors find that a network with age-dependent synaptic plasticity outperforms one with constant age-independent plasticity and that having more GC per se is not sufficient to explain this effect. In addition, having an initial higher excitability of GCs leads to increased performance. To what degree the increased excitability of abGCs is conceptually necessarily independent of them having higher synaptic plasticity rates / fast synapses?

      We thank the reviewer for this question, as the difference between excitability and plasticity rate in memory formation is something we intended to highlight in this study. We have updated the (Lines 157-198) to clarify this.

      At the cellular level, a neuron's excitability and its rate of synaptic plasticity are mechanistically distinct: excitability is governed by factors such as ion channel expression or membrane resistance, whereas plasticity rates are influenced by molecular pathways involved in synapse and dendritic spine formation and remodeling. While these are independent properties, they are functionally coupled: most synaptic plasticity rules are activity-dependent, so greater excitability can increase the likelihood of plasticity being induced but does not itself guarantee learning.

      Our model reflects this distinction. Increased excitability biases which neurons become activated and thus eligible to undergo plasticity, but actual learning still depends on the plasticity rate itself. This can be seen by comparing the model constant plasticity and excitability (solid blue and green curves in Figure 2C) to the model with only transient excitability (solid blue and green lines in Figure 2E). In both cases, the strength and duration of the memory remain limited by the plasticity rate. We note additionally that, in this network, neurons compete to learn new stimuli: as GCs start to learn, they suppress MC activity through recurrent inhibition which suppresses learning in other GCs who otherwise would have been in position to learn the odor. As a result there is not a significant increase in the overall number of neurons recruited to learn (Figure 2J). In a different network architecture, such as a feedforward network, we would not expect this to be the case; greater excitability in a population of neurons would likely increase the memory by increasing the number of neurons recruited to learn. Transiently enhanced excitability biases which neurons join the memory engram (Figure 2J), but the extent and rate of learning still depend on the plasticity rates themselves. We did note in the original text (now lines 284-286) that this bias in recruitment subtly increases memory stability, but the extent is not great. In principle, a model can be engineered to rely on transiently increased excitability to encode memories in orthogonal subpopulations of neurons and that this could resolve the flexibility-stability dilemma. However, in that case, the number of memories that can be stored within a short time would be bounded by the size of this subpopulation such that even if a large number of odors are presented, mature GCs cannot become part of the engram and the network would likely fail to learn the stimuli. However, when this was tested experimentally (Forest et al. Cereb Cor. 2020), it was found that mature GCs participated in the engram when the number of odors was sufficiently high. Our results are consistent with these experiments: for complex odor environments, neonatal GCs, which are mature during odor exposure, and abGCs both participate in the engrams.

      Author response image 3.

      Simulating learning in more complex odor environments. Top: enrichment consisted of three odor pairs presented sequentially in a random order. Bottom: enrichment consisted of five odor pairs. Left: discriminability of the odor pairs over time. Middle: connectivity between MCs (sorted by odor selectivity) and GCs (sorted by age). In both cases AbGCs develop a clear connectivity structure. In more complex environments neonatal GCs also start to develop a clear connectivity structure. Right: combined engram membership across all stimuli by GC age.

      In sum, transiently increased excitability alone will not make learning any faster, so a fast learning system must have a high plasticity rate. If this plasticity rate stays high, then memories stored in these neurons, even if no longer highly excitable, will be vulnerable as the neurons can still be driven above their plasticity threshold by moderately interfering stimuli and will thus be quickly forgotten. Conversely, if the reviewer is wondering if a greater increase in the plasticity rate of new neurons can compensate for a lack of excitability, this is not the case: if a newborn neuron is not sufficiently driven by the stimulus it will not learn regardless of how high its plasticity rate is.

      (2) The authors do not mention previous theoretical work on the specificity of mitral to granule cell interactions from several groups (Koulakov & Rinberg - Neuron, 2011; Gilra & Bhalla, PLoSOne, 2015; Grabska-Bawinska...Mainen, Pouget, Latham, Nat. Neurosci. 2017; Tootoonian, Schaefer, Latham, PLoS Comput. Biol., 2022), nor work on the relevance of top-down feedback from the olfactory cortex on the abGC during odor discrimination tasks (Wu & Komiyama, Sci. Adv. 2020), or of top-down regulation from the olfactory cortex on regulating the activity of the mitral/tuned cells in task engaged mice (Lindeman et al., PLoS Comput. Biol., 2024), or in naïve mice that encounter odorants (in the absence of specific context; Boyd, et al., Cell Rep, 2015; Otazu et al., Neuron 2015, Chae et al., Neuron, 2022). In particular, the presence of rich topdown control of granule cell activity (including of abGCs) puts into question the plausibility of one of the opening statements of the authors with respect to relying solely on local circuit mechanisms to solve the flexibility-stability dilemma. I think the discussion of this work is important in order to put into context the idea of specific interactions between the abGCs and the mitral cells.

      We thank the reviewer for these detailed and thorough comments, and whole-heartedly agree that it is important to discuss the listed studies in order to contextualize our work through the broader lens of how information is processed in the OB. We have expanded our discussion to further acknowledge and integrate insight from previous theoretical and experimental work cited by the reviewer. (Lines 361-366, 493-550)

      Regarding the importance of top-down feedback, we of course recognize that in practice cortical inputs play a critical role in abGC survival and synaptic integration. However, its nature is not quite clear and is likely variable across behavioral seungs. In the paradigm that we study in the manuscript, there is likely no key reward value or contextual signal that is relayed to the OB. One plausible interpretation is that in this task, cortical feedback provides a random, variable baseline excitatory drive to GCs. This would likely be consistent with many of the listed studies, e.g.

      (1) Glomerular layer targeting of feedback would be explicitly unrelated to glomerular odor specificity, as in Boyd et al.

      (2) GC activity would decrease if these cortical inputs were silenced, resulting in stronger MC responses as in Otazu et al., Chae et al.

      (3) Silencing PCx during learning would prevent GCs from reaching activity-dependent plasticity thresholds, resulting in decreased spine density as in Wu & Komiyama.

      Likewise activating PCx would lead to increased spine density.

      In this interpretation, the effect of top-down input could be captured implicitly by adjusting model parameters such as activity or plasticity thresholds. For the purposes of our study, we opted to neglect these inputs in favor of model simplicity.

      Critically, even if top-down inputs play a substantially larger role, by perhaps even going as far as providing signals to abGCs to modulate their development, the core solution to the flexibility-stability dilemma that we describe stays local: we predict that the memory persists in the same network in which it was formed.

      (3) To what the degree of specific connectivity reflects a specific stimulus configuration, and is a good proxy for determining the stimulus discriminability and memory capacity in terms of temporal activity patterns (difference in latency/phase with respect to the respiration cycle, etc.) which may account to a substantial fraction of ability to discriminate between stimuli? The authors mention in the discussion that this is, indeed, an upper bound and specific connectivity is necessary for different temporal activity patterns, but a further expansion on this topic would help in understanding the limitations of the model.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this important point. Indeed, there have been several recent experimental studies indicating that much of the information needed for olfactory discrimination is encoded in the temporal activity patterns of mitral and tuned cells. Our model does not explicitly simulate these dynamics. It was for this reason that we defined memory in terms of the learned structure of the network rather than by firing rate activity. This is motivated by the idea that learned patterns of connectivity constrain the space of neural activity the network can support, and thus shape stimulus responses. We now make this limitation more explicit in the discussion and clarify that the specific MC–GC connectivity we analyze should be seen as a structural substrate that constrains the possible temporal transformations the network could support (Lines 492-506).

      (4) Reward or reward prediction error signals are not considered in the model. They however are ubiquitous in nature and likely to be encountered and shape the connectivity and activity patterns of the abGC-mitral cell network. Including a discussion of how the model may be adjusted to incorporate reward/error signals would strengthen the manuscript.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion and agree that reward and reward prediction error signals are critical components of many learning paradigms. We deliberately chose not to model associative learning, reward signals or top-down neuromodulation in this work. Our goal is to investigate the role of adult neurogenesis in a regime where its contribution has been shown to be experimentally necessary. Specifically, we focused on an unsupervised perceptual learning paradigm where adult neurogenesis is required for successful odor discrimination (Moreno et al. PNAS, 2008). In contrast, when the same odors are used in a rewarded learning paradigm, performance remains intact even when adult neurogenesis is ablated (Imayoshi et al., Nat. Neuro., 2008). This dissociation suggests that neurogenesis is dispensable in contexts where reward can guide learning. As such, we argue that isolating the contribution of local circuit dynamics in an unsupervised setting is critical to understanding what neurogenesis is uniquely enabling, especially given the evolutionary cost of maintaining it.

      We agree that extending this work to incorporate reward-driven plasticity or neuromodulatory influences would be a valuable direction for future research. In particular, it could help clarify how different learning paradigms engage distinct abGC cohorts (e.g., Mandairon et al., eLife 2018; Wu & Komiyama, Sci. Adv. 2020), and how task structure shapes memory allocation and engram composition. We have incorporated this into the discussion regarding extending our model to include top down feedback (lines 539-553).

      Specific comments

      (1) Lines 84-86; 507-509; Eq(3): Sensory input is defined by a basal parameter of MCs spontaneous activity (Sspontaneus) and the odor stimuli input (Siodor) but is not clear from the main text or methods how sensory inputs (glomerular patterns) were modeled

      We now clarify in the Methods section "Stimulus model" how the sensory inputs were modeled. Specifically, odor-evoked inputs to mitral cells (Siodor) were generated either as Gaussian profiles across the mitral cell population (Figs. 2,3) or as sparser random patterns (Figs. 4,5). In Figures 2 and 3, the denser Gaussian stimuli require more GCs to learn the odors, aiding in visualization of the connectivity matrix (Figure 2H) and abGC recruitment plots (Figure 2I,J; Figure 3C,E). However, real olfactory stimuli activate a sparse set of MCs, so in Figures 4 and 5 where we address learning of many stimuli, we utilize sparser, binary, stimuli delivered to only 10% of MCs, in range of experimental data (Wachowiak and Cohen, Neuron, 2001). The fact that the stimuli are binary, however, is not realistic and leads to denser representations. This leads to a worst-case scenario for the model as denser memory representations are easier to overwrite. These points has been added explicitly to the Methods section "Stimulus model" to improve clarity.

      (2) Lines 118-122: The used perceptual learning task explanation is done only in the context of the discriminability of similar artificial stimuli using the Fisher discriminant and "Memory" metric. A detailed description of the logic of the perceptual learning task methods and objective, taking into account Comment 1, would help to better understand the model.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out had not adequately described the task and have updated the main text (lines 125-132) and included a new methods section "Perceptual learning task" to describe it more explicitly. The experiments that inspired the simulation followed an ecological model of discrimination learning (Moreno et al. PNAS 2009): For one hour a day over a ten day "enrichment period", two tea balls containing similar but distinct odors were suspended from the lid of each mouse's home cage. The mice engaged with the stimuli under self-directed conditions, therefore learning through natural experience. As a result the mice use olfactory information to discriminate between the similar stimuli, a skill potentially relevant for navigation or social behaviors.

      In our simulations, we model these experiments as follows. During the enrichment period, the model is stimulated with a randomly selected stimulus chosen from a set of two similar stimuli, corresponding to a mouse choosing to sniff one of the tea balls. During enrichment, in between these bouts of "sniffing", the model only receives spontaneous activity, reflecting the temporal sparsity of sensory input even over the enrichment period. Outside of enrichment, the model again receives only spontaneous input.

      (3) Rapid re-learning of forgotten odor pair is enabled by sensory-dependent dendritic elaboration of neurons that initially encoded the odors and the observed re-learning would occur even if neurogenesis was blocked following the first enrichment and even though the initial learning did require neurogenesis. When this would ever occur in nature? The re-learning of an odor period? Why is this highlighted in the study?

      We believe that this sort of learning is certainly relevant in nature. To clarify: by “learning,” we do not refer to the memory of an entire “odor period”, but simply an altered mapping of specific stimuli. Therefore, forgeung could occur if these specific stimuli are absent from the environment for a period of time, and re-learning would occur when these stimuli are re-encountered. Natural odor environments are highly dynamic, as environmental conditions and social contexts change over time. The odors an animal encounters also depend strongly on its own behavior; as it explores different environments, it may be exposed to particular odors intermittently: it could encounter them in one location, then not return to that location for some time before returning again.

      Such natural variability in odor exposure makes the ability to forget and re-learn especially valuable, allowing the animal to prioritize relevant information while maintaining flexibility. To this end, we show in Figure 5G that the synaptic forgetting of odors is beneficial to the performance of the model because it reduces interference in the network. Therefore we highlight that re-learning enabled by adult neurogenesis is a highly efficient strategy for memory storage and retrieval, which is why he emphasize it in this study.

      (4) Figure 2A: I understand that the ages shown at the bottom of the colored boxes represent the GC age. If so, find a better way to express that to avoid confusing 'GC ages' from the days shown in the perceptual learning task description (Figure 2B).

      We have updated the text in the figure to disambiguate the two and refer to the “days” shown in the perceptual learning task description now as “time relative to enrichment”

      (5) Figure 2B: Clarify how the two-dimensional arrays are arranged to represent the patterns shown. Does each point of the array represent one neuron? If so, are these neurons re-arranged to help the readers visually differentiate patterns A and B? Are the patterns of activity of MCs in the model spatially and temporally sparse as observed in experimental work?

      In Figure 2B, each point in the two-dimensional array represents the activity of a single mitral cell. The layout is purely for visualization—neurons are re-arranged to make the differences between odor patterns A and B visually apparent. This ordering does not reflect anatomical position or model architecture. We revised the Figure 2 caption to say this explicitly.

      Regarding spatial sparseness, as we mentioned in the response to the reviewer’s comment (1), the activity of mitral cells in response to odors is spatially sparse in the model. Regarding temporal sparseness, while the model is not spiking and does not include temporal dynamics within the timescale of the breath, however, odor input is delivered in discrete, odorspecific epochs interleaved with periods of no input, which leads to temporally structured activity patterns. This information has been made explicit in the new methods sections "Stimulus model" and "Perceptual learning task"

      (6) Figure 3C and Line 189: potential confusion between the color code mentioned in the legend for the enrichment and developing periods.

      It appeared to be a confusion in the text and has been corrected (Lines 212-213).

      (7) Figure 5F: For clarity, this would benefit from replacing the bold line with areas in the plot to depict the enrichment periods.

      We agree that replacing the bolded line segments with shaded areas is more clear and have updated the figure accordingly, and appreciate the reviewer's suggestion to clarify the figure.

      (8) Lines 380, 416: Potential role of cortical feedback and or neuromodulation depending on behavioral relevance or permanent exposure? Later mentioned in Lines 467 - 474.

      We have updated the text to acknowledge the role of potential cortical feedback and neuromodulation, now in lines 403-407.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      Response to Reviewer Comments:

      We thank the editors and reviewers for their careful consideration of our revised manuscript. Reviewers 2 and 3 indicated that their previous comments had been satisfactorily addressed by our revisions. Reviewer 1 raised several points and our point by point responses can be found below.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      1) Please clarify the terminology of spontaneous recovery in your study.

      According to Rescorla RA 2004 ( http://www.learnmem.org/cgi/doi/10.1101/lm.77504.), he defines spontaneous recovery as "with the passage of time following nonreinforcement, there is some "spontaneous recovery" of the initially learned behavior. ". So in this study, I thought Test2 is spontaneous recovery while the Test1 is extinction test as most studies do. But authors seem to define spontaneous recovery from the last trial of Extinction3 to the first trial of Test1, which is confusing to me.

      We agree with the reviewer (and Rescorla, 2004) that spontaneous recovery is defined as the return of the initially learned behaviour after the passage of time. In our study, Test 1 is conducted 24-hours after the final extinction session (Extinction 3) and in our view, the return of responding following that 24-hour delay can be considered spontaneous recovery. Rescorla (2004 and elsewhere) also points out that the magnitude of spontaneous recovery may be greater with larger delays between extinction and testing. This in part motivated our second test 7 days following the last extinction session with optogenetic manipulation. We did not find evidence of greater spontaneous recovery in the test 7 days later, however, the additional extinction trials in Test 1 may have reduced the opportunity to detect such an effect.

      2) Why are E6-8 plots of Offset group in Figure 3E and F different?

      We apologise for this error and have corrected it. This was an artifact of an older version of the figure before final exclusions. The E6-8 data is now the same for panels 2E and 2F.

      3) Related to 2, Please clarify what type of data they are in Figure3E,F Figure5H, and I . If it's average, please add error bars. Also, it's hard to see the statistical significance at the current figure style.

      The data in these panels are the mean lever presses per trial as labeled on the y-axis of the figures. In our view, in this instance, error bars (or lines and other markers of significance) detract from the visual clarity of the figure. The statistical approach and outcomes are included in the figure legend and when presented alongside the figure in the final version of the paper should directly clarify these points.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The authors have addressed my previous comments to my satisfaction.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The authors have adequately addressed each of the points raised in my original review. The paper will make a nice contribution to the field.


      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      • It would be interesting if the authors would do calcium imaging or electrophysiology from LCNA neurons during appetitive extinction.

      Indeed these are interesting ideas. We have plans to pursue them but ongoing work is not yet ready for publication.

      • LC-NA neuronal responses during the omission period seem to be important for appetitive extinction as described in the manuscript (Park et al., 2013; Sara et al., 1994; Su & Cohen 2022). It would be nice to activate/inactivate LC-NA neurons during the omission period.

      Optogenetic manipulation was given for the duration of the stimulus (20 seconds; when reward should be expected contingent upon performance of the instrumental response). We believe the reviewer is suggesting briefer manipulation only at the precise time the pellet would have been expected but omitted. If so, the implementation of that is complex because animals were trained on random ratio schedules and so when exactly the pellet(s) was earned was variable and so when precisely the animal experiences “omission” is difficult to know with better temporal specificity than used in the current experiments. But we agree with the reviewer that now we see that there is an effect of LC manipulation, in future studies we could alter the behavioral task so that the timing of reward is consistent (e.g., train the animals with fixed ratio schedules or continuous reinforcement, or use a Pavlovian paradigm) where a reasonable assertion about when the outcome should occur, and thus when its absence would be detected, can be made and then manipulation given at that time to address this point.

      • Does LC-NA optoinhibition affect the expression of the conditioned response (the lever presses at early trials of Extinction 1)? It's hard to see this from the average of all trials.

      The eNpHR group responded numerically less overall during extinction. This effect appears greatest in the first extinction session, but fails to reach statistical significance [F(1,15)= 3.512, p=0.081]. Likewise, analysis of the trial by trial data for the first extinction session failed to reveal any group differences [F(1,15)= 3.512, p=0.081] or interaction [trial x group; F(1,15)=0.550, p=0.470].

      Comparison of responding in the first trial also failed to reveal group differences [F(1.15)=1.209, p=0.289]. Thus while there is a trend in the data, this is not borne out by the statistical analysis, even in early trials of the session.

      • While the authors manipulate global LC-NA neurons, many people find the heterogeneous populations in the LC. It would be great if the authors could identify the subpopulation responsible for appetitive extinction.

      We agree that it would be exciting to test whether and identify which subpopulation(s) of cells or pathway(s) are responsible for appetitive extinction. While related work has found that discrete populations of LC neurons mediate different behaviours and states, and may even have opposing effects, our initial goal was to determine whether the LC was involved in appetitive extinction learning. These are certainly ideas we hope to pursue in future work.

      Minor:

      • Why do the authors choose 10Hz stimulation?

      The stimulation parameters were based on previously published work. We have added these citations to the manuscript.

      Quinlan MAL, Strong VM, Skinner DM, Martin GM, Harley CW, Walling SG. Locus Coeruleus Optogenetic Light Activation Induces Long-Term Potentiation of Perforant Path Population Spike Amplitude in Rat Dentate Gyrus. Front Syst Neurosci. 2019 Jan 9;12:67. doi: 10.3389/fnsys.2018.00067. PMID: 30687027; PMCID: PMC6333706.

      Glennon E, Carcea I, Martins ARO, Multani J, Shehu I, Svirsky MA, Froemke RC. Locus coeruleus activation accelerates perceptual learning. Brain Res. 2019 Apr 15;1709:39-49. doi: 10.1016/j.brainres.2018.05.048. Epub 2018 May 31. PMID: 29859972; PMCID: PMC6274624.

      Vazey EM, Moorman DE, Aston-Jones G. Phasic locus coeruleus activity regulates cortical encoding of salience information. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2018 Oct 2;115(40):E9439-E9448. doi: 10.1073/pnas.1803716115. Epub 2018 Sep 19. PMID: 30232259; PMCID: PMC6176602.

      • The authors should describe the behavior task before explaining Fig1e-g results.

      We agree that introducing the task earlier would improve clarity and have added a brief summary of the task at the beginning of the results section (before reference to Figure 1) and point the reader to the schematics that summarize training for each experiment (Figures 2A and 4D).

      NOTE R2 includes specific comments in their Public review. We have considered those as their recommendations and address them here.

      1) In such discrimination training, Pavlovian (CS-Food) and instrumental (LeverPress-Food) contingencies are intermixed. It would therefore be very interesting if the authors provided evidence of other behavioural responses (e.g. magazine visits) during extinction training and tests.

      In a discriminated operant procedure, the DS (e.g. clicker) indicates when the instrumental response will be reinforced (e.g., lever-pressing is reinforced only when the stimulus is present, and not when the stimulus is absent). This is distinct from something like a Pavlovianinstrumental transfer procedure and so we wish to just clarify that there is no Pavlovian phase where the stimuli are directly paired with food. After a successful lever-press the rat must enter the magazine to collect the food, but food is only delivered contingency upon lever-pressing and so magazine entries here are not a clear indicator of Pavlovian learning as they may be in other paradigms.

      Nonetheless, we have compiled magazine entry data which although not fully independent of the lever-press response in this paradigm, still tells us something about the animals’ expectation regarding reward delivery.

      For the ChR2 experiment, largely paralleling the results seen in the lever-press data, there were no group differences in magazine responses at the end of training [F(2,40)=2.442, p=0.100].

      Responding decreased across days of extinction (when optogenetic stimulation was given) [F(2, 80)=38.070, p<0.001], but there was no effect of group [F(2,40)=0.801, p=0.456] and no interaction between day and group [F(4,40)=1.461, p=0.222]. Although a similar pattern is seen in the test data, group differences were not statistically different in the first [F(2,40)=2.352, p=0.108] or second [F(2,40)=1.900, p=0.166] tests, perhaps because magazine responses were quite low. Thus, overall, magazine data do not present a different picture than lever-pressing, but because of the lack of statistical effects during testing, we have chosen not to include these data in the manuscript.

      For the eNpHR experiment, again a similar pattern to lever-pressing was seen. There were no group differences at the end of acquisition [F(1,15)=0.290, p=0.598]. Responding decreased across days of extinction [F(2, 30)=4.775, p=0.016] but there was no main effect of group [F(1,15)=1.188, p=0.293], and no interaction between extinction and group [F(2,30)=0.070, p=0.932]. There were no group differences in the number of magazine entries in Test 1 [F(1,15)=1.378, p=0.259] or Test 2 [F(1,15)=0.319, p=0.580].

      Author response image 1.

      Author response image 2.

      2) In Figure 1, the authors show the behavioural data of the different groups of control animals which were later collapsed in a single control group. It would be very nice if the authors could provide the data for each step of the discrimination training.

      We are a little confused by this comment. Figure 1, panels E, F, and G show the different control groups at the end of training, for each day of extinction (when manipulations occurred) and for each test, respectively. It’s not clear if there is an additional step the reviewer is interested in? We note neural manipulation only occurred during extinction sessions.

      We chose to compare the control groups initially, and finding no differences, to collapse them for subsequent analyses as this simplifies the statistical analysis substantially; when group differences are found, each of the subgroups has to be investigated (including the different controls means there are 5 groups instead of 3). It doesn’t change the story because we tested that there were not differences between controls before collapsing them, but collapsing the controls makes the presentation of the statistical data much shorter and easier to follow.

      3) Inspection of Figures 2C & 2D shows that responding in control animals is about the same at test 2 as at the end of extinction training. Therefore, could the authors provide evidence for spontaneous recovery in control animals? This is of importance given that the main conclusion of the authors is that LC stimulation during extinction training led to an increased expression of extinction memory as expressed by reduced spontaneous recovery.

      To address this we have added analyses of trial data, specifically comparison of the final 3 trials of extinction to the subsequent three trials of each test. These analyses are included on page 5 of the manuscript and additional data figures can be found as panels 2E and 2F and pasted below.

      What we observe in the trial data for controls is an increase in responding from the end of extinction to the beginning of each test, thus demonstrating spontaneous recovery. Importantly, responding in the ChR2 group does not increase from the end of extinction to the beginning of the test, illustrating that LC stimulation during extinction prevents spontaneous recovery.

      Comparison of the final three trials of Extinction to the three trials of Test 1:

      Author response image 3.

      Comparison of the final three trials of Extinction to the three trials of Test 2:

      Author response image 4.

      Halorhodopsin Experiment Tests 1 and 2, respectively.

      Author response image 5.

      4) Current evidence suggests that there are differences in LC/NA system functioning between males and females. Could the authors provide details about the allocation of male and female animals in each group?

      More females had surgical complications (excess bleeding) than males resulting in the following allocations; control group; 14 males and 8 females; ChR2 group 8 males and 7 females; offset 6 males.

      In our dataset, we did not detect sex differences in training [no main effect of sex: F(1,38)=1.097, p=0.302, sex x group interaction: F(1,38)= 1.825, p=0.185], extinction [no effect of sex; F(1,38)=0.370, p=0.547; no sex x extinction interaction: F(2,76)=0.701, p=0.499 ; no sex x extinction x group interaction: F(2,76)=2.223, p=0.115] or testing [Test 1 no effect of sex: F(1,38)=1.734, =0.196; no sex x group interaction: F(1,38)=0.009, p=0.924; Test 2 no effect of sex: F(1,38)=0.661, p=0.421; no sex x group interaction: F(1,38)=0.566, p=0.456].

      5) The histology section in both experiments looks a bit unsatisfying. Could the authors provide more details about the number of counted cells and also their distribution along the anteroposterior extent of the LC. Could the authors also take into account the sex in such an analysis?

      The antero-posterior coordinates used for cell counts and calculation of % infection rates were between -9.68 and -10.04 (Paxinos and Watson, 2007, 6th Edition) as infection rates were most consistent in this region and it was well-positioned relative to the optic probe although TH and mCherry positive cells were observed both rostral and caudal to this area. For each animal, an average of ~116+/- 25 TH-positive LC neurons as determined by DAPI and GFP positive cells were identified. Viral expression was identified by colocalized mCherry staining. Animals that did not have viral expression in the LC were not included in the experimental groups. We have added these details to the histology results on page 4.

      Males and females showed very similar infection rates (Males, 74%; Females, 72%). While sex differences, such as total number of LC cells or total LC volume have been reported (Guillamon, A. et al. 2005), Garcia-Falgueras et al. (2005) reported no differences in LC volume or number of LC neurons between male and female Long-Evans rats. So while differences may exist in the LC of Long-Evans rats, the cell counts here were comparable between groups (males, 103 +/- 27; females, 129 +/- 17; t-test, p>0.05).

      References:

      1) Garcia-Falgueras, A., Pinos, H., Collado, P., Pasaro, E., Fernandez, R., Segovia, S., & Guillamon, A. (2005). The expression of brain sexual dimorphism in artificial selection of rat strains. Brain Research, 1052(2), 130–138. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.brainres.2005.05.066

      2) Guillamon, A., De Bias, M. R., & Segovia, S. (1988). Effects of sex steroids on the of the locus coeruleus in the rat. Developmental Brain Research, 40, 306–310.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      MAJOR

      1) It is worth noting that responding in Group ChR2 decreased from Extinction 3 to Test 1, while responding in the other two groups appears to have remained the same. This suggests that there was no spontaneous recovery of responding in the controls; and, as such, something more must be said about the basis of the between-group differences in responding at test. This is particularly important as each extinction session involved eight presentations of the to-betested stimulus, whereas the test itself consisted of just three stimulus presentations. Hence, comparing the mean levels of performance to the stimulus across its extinction and testing overestimates the true magnitude of spontaneous recovery, which is simply not clear in the results of this study. That is, it is not clear that there is any spontaneous recovery at all and, therefore, that the basis of the difference between Group ChR2 and controls at test is in terms of spontaneous recovery.

      The reviewer is correct that there were a different number of trials in extinction vs. test sessions making direct comparison difficult and displaying the data as averages of the test session does not demonstrate spontaneous recovery per se. To address this we have added analyses of trial data and comparison of the final 3 trials of extinction to the subsequent three trials of each test. These analyses are included on page 5 and 6 of the manuscript and additional data figures can be found as panels 2E and 2F and 4 H and I, and pasted below.<br /> What we observe in the trial data for controls is an increase in responding from the end of extinction to the beginning of each test, thus demonstrating spontaneous recovery. Importantly, responding in the ChR2 group does not increase from the end of extinction to the beginning of the test, illustrating that LC stimulation during extinction prevents spontaneous recovery.

      Comparison of the final three trials of Extinction to the three trials of Test 1:

      Author response image 6.

      Comparison of the final three trials of Extinction to the three trials of Test 2:

      Author response image 7.

      Halorhodopsin Experiment Tests 1 and 2, respectively.

      Author response image 8.

      2a) Did the manipulations have any effect on the rates of lever-pressing outside of the stimulus?

      We did not detect any effect of the optogenetic manipulations on rates of lever pressing outside of the stimulus. This is demonstrated in the pre-CS intervals collected on stimulation days (i.e., extinction sessions) where we see similar response rates between controls and the ChR2 and Offset groups as shown below. There was no effect of group [F(2,40)=0.156, 0.856] or group x extinction day interaction [F(2,40)=0.146, p=0.865].

      Author response image 9.

      2b) Did the manipulations have any effect on rates of magazine entry either during or after the stimulus?

      For the ChR2 experiment, there were no group differences in magazine responses at the end of training [F(2,40)=2.442, p=0.100]. Responding decreased across days of extinction (when optogenetic stimulation was given) [F(2, 80)=38.070, p<0.001], but there was no effect of group [F(2,40)=0.801, p=0.456] and no interaction between day and group [F(4,40)=1.461, p=0.222]. Although a similar pattern is seen in the test data, group differences were not statistically different in the first [F(2,40)=2.352, p=0.108] or second [F(2,40)=1.900, p=0.166] tests, perhaps because magazine responses were quite low. Thus, overall, magazine data do not present a different picture than lever-pressing, but because of the lack of statistical effects during testing, we have chosen not to include these data in the manuscript.

      For the eNpHR experiment, again a similar pattern to lever-pressing was seen. There were no group differences at the end of acquisition [F(1,15)=0.290, p=0.598]. Responding decreased across days of extinction [F(2, 30)=4.775, p=0.016] but there was no main effect of group [F(1,15)=1.188, p=0.293], and no interaction between extinction and group [F(2,30)=0.070, p=0.932]. There were no group differences in the number of magazine entries in Test 1 [F(1,15)=1.378, p=0.259] or Test 2 [F(1,15)=0.319, p=0.580].

      Author response image 10.

      Author response image 11.

      2c) Did the manipulations affect the coupling of lever-press and magazine entry responses? I imagine that, after training, the lever-press and magazine entry responses are coupled: rats only visit the magazine after having made a lever-press response (or some number of leverpress responses). Stimulating the LC clearly had no acute effect on the performance of the lever-press response. If it also had no effect on the total number of magazine entries performed during the stimulus, it would be interesting to know whether the coupling of lever-presses and magazine entries had been disturbed in any way. One could assess this by looking at the jointdistribution of lever-presses (or runs of lever-presses) and magazine visits in each extinction session, or across the three sessions of extinction. As a proxy for this, one could look at the average latency to enter the magazine following a lever-press response (or run of leverpresses). Any differences here between the Controls and Group ChR2 would be informative with respect to the effects of the LC manipulations: that is, the results shown in Figure indicate that stimulating the LC has no acute effects on lever-pressing but protects against something like spontaneous recovery; whereas the results shown in Figure 4 indicate that inhibiting the LC facilitates the loss of responding across extinction without protecting against spontaneous recovery. The additional data/analyses suggested here would indicate whether LC stimulation had any acute effects on responding that might explain the protection from spontaneous recovery; and whether LC inhibition specifically reduced lever-pressing across extinction or whether it had equivalent effects on rates of magazine entry.

      Lever-press and magazine response data were collected trial by trial but not with the temporal resolution required for the analyses suggested by the reviewer. We do not have timestamps for magazine entries nor latency data. We can collect this type of data in future studies. At the session or trial level, magazine entries generally correspond to lever-pressing; being trained on ratio schedules, and from informal observation, rats will do several lever-presses and then check the magazine. Rates of each decrease across extinction (magazine data included in response to comment 2b. above). Optogenetic manipulation appeared to have no immediate effect on either response during extinction.

      ROCEDURAL

      1) Why were there three discriminative stimuli in acquisition: a light, white noise, and clicker?

      This was done to be consistent with and apply parameters similar to previous, related studies (Rescorla, 2006; Janak & Corbit, 2011) and to allow comparison to potential future studies that may involve stimulus compounds etc. (requiring training of multiple stimuli).

      2) Why were some rats extinguished to the noise while others were extinguished to the clicker? Were the effects of LC stimulation/inhibition dependent on the identity of the extinguished stimulus?

      Because the animals were trained with multiple stimuli, it allowed us some ability to choose amongst those stimuli to best balance response rates across groups before the key manipulations. The effects of LC manipulation did not differ between animals based on the identity of the extinguished stimulus.

      3) Did the acute effects of LC inhibition on extinction vary as a function of the stimulus identity?

      No

      4) Was the ITI in extinction the same as that in acquisition?

      Yes, the ITI was the same for acquisition and extinction sessions (variable, averaging to 90 seconds). We have added a sentence to the methods (p. 11) to reflect this.

      5) For Group Offset, when was the photo-stimulation applied in relation to the extinguished stimulus: was it immediately upon offset of the stimulus or at a later point in the ITI?

      The group label “Offset” was used to be consistent with Umaetsu et al. (2017) that delivered stimulation 50-70s after a trial. SImilarly, we mean it as discontinuous with the stimulus, not at the termination of the stimulus. We have revised the description of this group on page 11 to clarify the timing of the photostimulation as follows:

      “Animals in the Offset group (and relevant controls) underwent identical training with the exception that stimulation in extinction sessions occurred in the middle of the variable length ITI (45s after stimulus termination, on average).”

      MINOR

      1) "Such recovery phenomena undermine the success of extinction-based therapies..."

      ***Perhaps a different phrasing is needed here: "These phenomena show that extinction-based therapies are not always effective in suppressing an already-established response..."

      We have revised this sentence in line with the reviewer’s suggestion:

      “These phenomena mean that extinction-based therapies are not always successful in suppressing previously-established behaviours” (first paragraph of the introduction).

      2) Typo in para 1 of results: "F(2,19)=0.0.352"

      Thank you for finding this typo. It has been corrected. (p.4)

      3) "As another example of modular functional organization, no improvements to strategy setshifting following global LC stimulation, but improvements were observed when LC terminals in the medial prefrontal cortex were targeted (Cope et al., 2019)." ***This sentence is missing a "there were" before "no improvements".

      Thank you for finding this error. It has been corrected. (p.8)

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      In this manuscript, Butkovic et al. perform a genome-wide association (GWA) study on Arabidopsis thaliana inoculated with the natural pathogen turnip mosaic virus (TuMV) in laboratory conditions, with the aim to identify genetic associations with virus infection-related parameters. For this purpose, they use a large panel of A. thaliana inbred lines and two strains of TuMV, one naïve and one pre-adapted through experimental evolution. A strong association is found between a region in chromosome 2 (1.5 Mb) and the risk of systemic necrosis upon viral infection, although the causative gene remains to be pinpointed.

      This project is a remarkable tour de force, but the conclusions that can be reached from the results obtained are unfortunately underwhelming. Some aspects of the work could be clarified, and presentation modified, to help the reader.

      (Recommendations For The Authors):

      • It is important to note that viral accumulation and symptom development do not necessarily correlate, and that only the former is a proxy for "virus performance". These concepts need to be clear throughout the text, so as not to mislead the reader.

      This has been explained better in line 118-120, “Virus performance has been removed.

      • Sadly, only indirect measures of the viral infection (symptoms) are used, and not viral accumulation. It is important to note that viral accumulation and symptom development do not necessarily correlate and that only the former is a proxy for "virus performance". These concepts need to be clear throughout the text, so as not to mislead the reader. The mention of "virus performance" in line 143 is therefore not appropriate, nor is the reference to viral replication and movement in the Discussion section.

      "Virus performance" was removed. Also, the reference to viral replication and movement in the Discussion section has been removed.

      Now we mention: “We did not measure viral accumulation, but note this is significantly correlated with intensity of symptoms within the Col-0 line (Corrêa et al. 2020), although it is not clear if this correlation occurs in all lines.”

      • Since symptoms are at the center of the screen, images representing the different scores in the arbitrary scales should ideally be shown.

      Different Arabidopsis lines would look different and this could mislead a reader not familiar with the lines. In order to make a representation of our criteria to stablish the symptoms, we believe that a schematic representation is clearer to interpret. Here are some pictures of different lines showing variating symptoms:

      Author response image 1.

      • Statistical analyses could be added to the figures, to ease interpretation of the data presented.

      Statistical analysis can be found in methods. We prefer to keep the figure legend as short as possible.

      • The authors could include a table with the summary of the phenotypes measured in the panel of screened lines (mean values, range across the panel, heritability, etc.).

      These data are plotted in Fig. 1. We believe that repeating this information in tabular form would not contribute to the main message of the work. Phenotype data and the code to reproduce figure 1 are available at GitHub (as stated in Data Availability), anyone interested can freely explore the phenotypes of the screened lines.

      • The definition of the association peak found in chromosome 2 could be explained further: is the whole region (1.5 Mb) in linkage disequilibrium? How many genes are found within this interval, and how were the five strong candidates the authors mention in line 161 selected? It is also not clear which are these 5 candidates, apart from AT2G14080 and DRP3B - and among those in Table 1 (which, by the way, is cited only in the Discussion and not in the Results section)? Why were AT2G14080 and DRP3B in particular chosen?

      We have replaced Table 1 with an updated Table S1 listing all genes found within the range of significant SNPs for each peak. We now highlight a subset of these genes as candidate genes if they have functions related to disease resistance or defence, and mentioned them explicitly in the text (lines 173-179. We have explicitly described how this table was constructed in the methods (lines 525-538).

      • Concerning the validation of the association found in chromosome 2 (line 169 and onward): the two approaches followed cannot be considered independent validations; wouldn't using independent accessions, or an independent population (generated by the cross between two parental lines, showing contrasting phenotypes, for example) have been more convincing?

      We aim to compare the hypothesis that the association is due to a causal locus to the null hypothesis that the observed association is a fluke due to, for example, the small number of lines showing necrosis. If this null hypothesis is true then we would not expect to see the association if we run the experiment again using the same lines. An alternative hypothesis is that the genotype at the QTL and disease phenotypes are not directly causally linked, but are both correlated with some other factor, such as another QTL, or maternal effects. We agree that an independent sample would be required to exclude the latter hypothesis, but argue that the former is the more pertinent. We have edited the text to be explicit about the hypothesis we are testing, and altered the language to shift the focus from ‘validation’ to ‘confirming the robustness’ of the association (line 182).

      • Regarding the identification of the transposon element in the genomic region of AT2G14080: is the complementation of the knock-out mutant with the two alleles (presence/absence of the transposon) possible to confirm its potential role in the observed phenotype?

      This could be feasible but we cannot do it as none of the researchers can continue this project.

      • On the comparison between naïve and evolved viral strains: is the evolved TuMV more virulent in those accessions closer to Col-0?

      This is not something we have looked at but would certainly be an interesting follow-up investigation.

      • The Copia-element polymorphism is identified in an intron; the potential functional consequences of this insertion could be discussed. In the example the authors provide, the transposable element is inserted into the protein-coding sequence instead.

      We now state explicitly that such insertions are expected to influence expression; beyond that we can only speculate. We have removed the reference to the insertion in the coding sequence.

      • The authors state in line 398 that "susceptibility is unquestionably deleterious" - is this really the case? Are the authors considering susceptibility as the capacity to be infected, or to develop symptoms? Viral infections in nature are frequently asymptomatic, and plant viruses can confer tolerance to other stresses.

      We have tone down the expression and clarify our wording: “Given that potyvirus outbreaks are common in nature (Pagán et al., 2010) and susceptibility to symptomatic infection can be deleterious”

      Additional minor comments:

      • In Table 1, Wu et al., 2018 should refer to DRP2A and 2B, not 3B.

      We have removed Table 1 altogether.

      • Line 126: a 23% increase in symptom severity is mentioned, but how is this calculated, considering that severity is measured in four different categories?

      This is the change in mean severity of symptoms between the two categories.

      • Figure 1F: "...symptoms"

      Fixed.

      • Line 179: "...suggesting an antiviral role..."

      Changed.

      • Lines 288-300: This paragraph does not fit into the narrative and could be omitted.

      It has been removed and some of the info moved to the last paragraph of the Intro, when the two TuMV variants were presented.

      • Lines 335-337: The rationale here is unclear since DRP2B will also be in the background - wouldn't DRPB2B and 3B be functionally redundant in the viral infection?

      Our results suggest that DRPB3B is redundant with DRPB2B for the ancestral virus but not for the evolved viral strain. We speculate that the evolved viral isolate may have acquired the capacity to recruit DRPB3B for its replication and hence it produces less symptoms when the plant protein is missing.

      We have spotted a mistake that may have add to the confusion. Originally the text said “In contrast, loss of function of DRP3B decreased symptoms relative to those in Col-0 in response to the ancestral, but not the evolved virus”. The correct statement is “In contrast, loss of function of DRP3B decreased symptoms relative to those in Col-0 in response to the evolved, but not the ancestral virus.”  

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The manuscript presents a valuable investigation of genetic associations related to plant resistance against the turnip mosaic virus (TuMV) using Arabidopsis thaliana as a model. The study infects over 1,000 A. thaliana inbred lines with both ancestral and evolved TuMV and assesses four disease-related traits: infectivity, disease progress, symptom severity, and necrosis. The findings reveal that plants infected with the evolved TuMV strain generally exhibited more severe disease symptoms than those infected with the ancestral strain. However, there was considerable variation among plant lines, highlighting the complexity of plant-virus interactions.

      A major genetic locus on chromosome 2 was identified, strongly associated with symptom severity and necrosis. This region contained several candidate genes involved in plant defense against viruses. The study also identified additional genetic loci associated with necrosis, some common to both viral isolates and others specific to individual isolates. Structural variations, including transposable element insertions, were observed in the genomic region linked to disease traits.

      Surprisingly, the minor allele associated with increased disease symptoms was geographically widespread among the studied plant lines, contrary to typical expectations of natural selection limiting the spread of deleterious alleles. Overall, this research provides valuable insights into the genetic basis of plant responses to TuMV, highlighting the complexity of these interactions and suggesting potential avenues for improving crop resilience against viral infections.

      Overall, the manuscript is well-written, and the data are generally high-quality. The study is generally well-executed and contributes to our understanding of plant-virus interactions. I suggest that the authors consider the following points in future versions of this manuscript:

      1. Major allele and minor allele definition: When these two concepts are mentioned in the figure, there is no clear definition of the two words in the text. Especially for major alleles, there is no clear definition in the whole text. It is recommended that the author further elaborate on these two concepts so that readers can more easily understand the text and figures.

      We agree that the distinction between major/minor alleles and major/minor associations in our previous manuscript may have been confusing. In the current manuscript we now define the minor allele at a locus as the less-common allele in the population (line 167). We have removed references to major/minor associations, and instead refer to strong/weak associations.

      1. Possible confusion caused by three words (Major focus / Major association and major allele): Because there is no explanation of the major allele in the text, it may cause readers to be confused with these two places in the text when trying to interpret the meaning of major allele: major locus (line 149)/ the major association with disease phenotypes (line 183).

      See our response to the previous comment.

      1. Discussion: The authors could provide a more detailed discussion of how the research findings might inform crop protection strategies or breeding programs.

      We would prefer to restrain speculating about future applications in breeding programs.

      (Recommendations For The Authors):

      1. Stacked bar chart for the Fig 1F. It is recommended that the author use the form of a stacked bar chart to display the results of Fig 1F. On the one hand, it can fit in with the format of Fig 1D/E/G, on the other hand, it can also display the content more clearly.

      We think the results are easier to interpret without the stacked bar chart.

      1. Language Clarity: While there are no apparent spelling errors, some sentences could be rewritten for greater clarity, especially when explaining the results in Figure 1 and Figure 2.

      We have reviewed these sections and attempted to improve clarity where that seemed appropriate.

      There are some possibilities to explore in the future. For example: clarity of mechanisms for the future. While the study identifies genetic associations, it lacks an in-depth exploration of the underlying molecular mechanisms. Elaborating on the mechanistic aspects would enhance the scientific rigor and practical applicability of the findings.

      Yes, digging into the molecular mechanisms is an ongoing task and will be published elsewhere. It was out of the scope of this already dense manuscript.  

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary of Work

      This paper conducts the largest GWAS study of A. thaliana in response to a viral infection. The paper identifies a 1.5 MB region in the chromosome associated with disease, including SNPs, structural variation, and transposon insertions. Studies further validate the association experimentally with a separate experimental infection procedure with several lines and specific T-DNA mutants. Finally, the paper presents a geographic analysis of the minor disease allele and the major association. The major take-home message of the paper is that structural variants and not only SNPs are important changes associated with disease susceptibility. The manuscript also makes a strong case for negative frequency-dependent selection maintaining a disease susceptibility locus at low frequency.

      Strengths and Weaknesses

      A major strength of this manuscript is the large sample sizes, careful experimental design, and rigor in the follow-up experiments. For instance, mentioning non-infected controls and using methods to determine if geographic locus associations were due to chance. The strong result of a GWAS-detected locus is impressive given the complex interaction between plant genotypes and strains noted in the results. In addition to the follow-up experiments, the geographic analysis added important context and broadened the scope of the study beyond typical lab-based GWAS studies. I find very few weaknesses in this manuscript.

      Support of Conclusions

      The support for the conclusions is exceptional. This is due to the massive amount of evidence for each statement and also due to the careful consideration of alternative explanations for the data.

      Significance of Work

      This manuscript will be of great significance in plant disease research, both for its findings and its experimental approach. The study has very important implications for genetic associations with disease beyond plants.

      (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Line 41 - Rephrase, not clear "being the magnitude and sign of the difference dependent on the degree of adaptation of the viral isolate to A. thaliana."

      Now it reads: “When inoculated with TuMV, loss-of-function mutant plants of this gene exhibited different symptoms than wild-type plants, where the scale of the difference and the direction of change between the symptomatology of mutant and wild-type plants depends on the degree of adaptation of the viral isolate to A. thaliana.”

      Line 236 - typo should read: "and 21-fold"

      Changed.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer 1:

      I would suggest that the authors focus on what I think is the main goal of the work, namely, to consider the whole cell contour when characterizing cell shape instead of only some points on the contour. A reference to the connection with Minkowski tensors and the biologically relevant mathematical consequences of this connection would suffice; a detailed definition of the Minkowski tensors does not seem to be necessary. Especially because you do not really use them. You could use the analysis of the simulation data to explain what the γ<sub>p</sub> miss and for which statements they would be sufficient.

      We argue that the explanation of Minkowski tensors is helpful and should remain in the Methods and materials section. There are two reasons: First, our argumentation relays on the robustness and stability properties of Minkowski tensors. Introducing q<sub>p</sub> without the connection to Minkowski tensors would not allow us to make these statements. Second, Minkowski tensors seem not well known in the community, otherwise measures like γ<sub>p</sub> would not have been introduced. Furthermore, readers not interested in the technical details could skip this part of the manuscript and directly go to the Results section. Concerning the questions, what the γ<sub>p</sub> miss and for which statements they would be sufficient, the answer from a purly mathematical point of view is rather simple: As γ<sub>p</sub> does not share robustness and stability it should not be used in any case! The provided results on computational and experimental data demonstrate the consequences of using such measures. In case of the proposed nematic-hexatic transition in Armengol-Collade et al. (2023) the consequence is severe, as this transition is specific only to the used method but not to the underlying physics. A second aspect which we now further highlight is the influence of approximating a cell by a polygon. We demonstrate that this approximation is responsible for a strong hexatic order on the cellular scale in the considered MDCK data from Armengol-Collade et al. (2023).

      It is not clear to me what we should learn about the two tissue models by using q<sub>2</sub> and q<sub>6</sub> to quantify cell shape. Can you clearly formulate one or more conclusions?

      What we can learn from the research is a dependence of q<sub>p</sub> on model parameters in the two tissue models is

      increases with higher activity or deformability

      decreases with higher activity or deformability.

      Furthermore, q<sub>2</sub> and q<sub>6</sub> are independent and describe distinct properties. Using these models as a basis to coarse-grain and derive continuous models on the tissue scale, these results indicate that more general p-atic liquid crystal theories should be used and the simplest nematic liquid crystal theories might not be sufficient.

      The experimental data and their analysis does not seem to add anything to the work. Do you report only data from independent measurements, or did you consider all images of a monolayer?

      As we now also analyze experimental data from Armengol-Collado et al. (2023) which confirm our findings on independency of q<sub>2</sub> and q<sub>6</sub> and also confirm that the proposed nematic-hexatic transition is only specific to the use of γ<sub>p</sub> for characterizing the shape, additional experimental data are indeed no longer needed. We, therefore, skip the detailed analysis of this data and only keep the results in Fig 1 and Fig 2 and the corresponding figures in the appendix as illustrating examples.

      L13: ”P-atic liquid crystal theories offer new perspectives on how cells self-organize (...)” This is a difficult entry, because the average reader of eLife might not be familiar with p-atic liquid crystals.

      We agree that p-atic liquid crystals might not be familiar to the average reader. For this reason we introduce orientational order in the introduction with examples demonstrating that not only nematic, but also tetratic and hexatic order have been identified in tissue and introduce the different symmetries. Furthermore, we provide examples for p-atic liquid crystals from other fields and various references. In the conclusion, we also cite models for p-atic liquid crystal theories. Even if the average reader is not familiar with these theories, it should become evident that nematic order might not be sufficient to describe tissue as other symmetries are present as well.

      L32: ”nematic” needs to be introduced.

      Nematic order is already explained as rotational order with 180° degrees. The references cited discuss nematic liquid crystals in the context of morphological changes in tissue. We therefore only added a standard text book as reference for liquid crystal theories and refrain introducing it in more detail in the manuscript.

      Figure 1: Why do you show the data for q<sub>3</sub>, q<sub>4</sub>, and q<sub>5</sub>, which you do not really consider in this manuscript? Same for Figure 2. Why not combine the two figures? Furthermore, you show q<sub>p</sub> without having defined them yet.

      We consider all p \= 2,3,4,5,6, but focus on p = 2,6 in the main text and p = 3,4,5 in the appendix. Figures 1 and 2 essentially only introduce the subject and help to relate p-atic order to cell shapes and introduce the methodology to analyze the data. Our conclusion is that all p can be important and should be considered in continuous descriptions of tissue.

      Equation 1: The notation is confusing: the domain of integration (C or ∂C) also appears as the variable you integrate.

      The equation is correct. The variable of integration is 1 or H and the domain of integration is C (cell) or ∂C (cell contour).

      L68: ”a snapshot of the considered monolayer of wild-type MDCK cells”. Did you analyse only one monolayer? Please, provide information about the number of monolayers that were imaged and how many cell shapes were analyzed.

      We have analyzed one monolayer and have added the missing information.

      L86: ”field-specific prefactors” I do not understand what is meant by these.

      Different communities, e.g. physics, mathematics, cosmology, .... use different prefactors in the definition. We have removed this statement.

      L89: ”Hadwiger’s characterization theorem”. What is this?

      This mathematical result is important to claim robustness and stability, it can be found in the cited reference.

      L104: ”the essential property is the continuity”. Essential for what?

      Essential ”for our purpose” to characterize the shape of cells by a robust method.

      L120: ”the theory also guarantees robust description of p-atic orientation for p = 3,4,5,6,...” I do not understand what you mean.

      The previous examples only consider p \= 2. However, the cited theoretical results also hold for p = 3,4,5,6,..

      Equations (5) and (6): You define ψ<sub>p</sub>(C) twice. Are the definitions equivalent? Why do you need both?

      This is not a different definition, equation (6) is a reformulation which is more useful for our purpose. But we indeed define ϑ<sub>p</sub> twice. We now use a new symbol to distinguish ϑ<sub>p</sub> in Equation 7 and 9.

      Figure 4: ”The visualization uses rotationally-symmetric direction fields (known as p-RoSy fields in computer graphics (Vaxman et al., 2016)).” I guess that you have used these fields already in Figure 1, so why introduce them only now?

      We have moved this comment to Figure 1.

      Figure 6: Using a few discrete values cannot illustrate continuity. Also, the ”jump” in γ<sub>p</sub> results from deleting a vertex, so I doubt that this is a fair comparison. Still, I think that it is important to point out to the reader that the value γ<sub>p</sub> depends on the number of vertices (here, I allow that two edges connected by a vertex are aligned).

      We adjusted the caption to make our point more clear. The last image is a triangle and according to the definition of γ<sub>p</sub> is, therefore, described by only three vertices. So, it is indeed a fair comparison. The reviewer is right that the value of γ<sub>p</sub> has a strong dependency of the number of used vertices, this is exactly the point that we are trying to make with this figure. Also, adding vertices artificially to make γ<sub>p</sub> continuous leads to more problems, as the values for γ<sub>p</sub> change if we change the number of vertices. But an equilateral triangle should be recognized as an equilateral triangle, no matter if there is an artificial fourth vertex or not. The triangle in our picture and the triangle that the reviewer mentioned (so our triangle with an artificial fourth vertex) both have the shape of an equilateral triangle, yet for one it is |γ<sub>3</sub>| = 1.0 and for the other one it is |γ<sub>3</sub>| = 0.935.

      While we agree on the reviewers statement about continuity, we did not modify the sentence, as the meaning should be clear.

      L160: The definition of the center of mass is incorrect as it is not that of an extended object whose contour is defined by a polygon, but only of the set of vertices. In Figure 6 you write ”the choice of the center of mass highly influences the value of γ<sub>p</sub>” - is there really a choice of the center of mass? I thought that it was uniquely defined.

      We here only repeat the definition from Armengol-Collado et al. (2023) in order to be able to directly compare our analyses with the results presented therein. We adjusted the caption to be more clear.

      L166: What is the weighting you refer to in Equation 9?

      We apologize, the reference is to Equation 8. We have modified this.

      L312: ”Quantifying orientational order in biological tissues can be realized by Minkowsky tensors”. As mentioned above, you do not really use them, but use Equation (7), which can be defined without reference to Minkowski tensors.

      Eq. (7) is part of the irreducible representations of the Minkowsky tensor. Therefore the sentence is correct.

      L318: I do not quite understand the link between being able (or not) to compare q<sub>p</sub>’s for different values of p and the interpretability of q<sub>2</sub> and q<sub>6</sub>. Also, since you introduce q<sub>p</sub>, how can the question about their comparability be a recurrent challenge? Finally, would you agree that even though a comparison between the absolute values of q<sub>2</sub> and q<sub>6</sub> is inappropriate, one can still meaningfully compare relative changes as a parameter is changed or when comparing cells in different conditions?

      We have modified the sentence. Furthermore we agree that one can still meaningfully compare relative changes as a parameter is changed, as we do. However, our claim that q<sub>2</sub> and q<sub>6</sub> are independent, does not allow to conclude any kind of nematic-hexatic phase transition. We have now provided further evidence using the published data of Armengol-Collado et al. (2023), which unequivocally supports this statement. We would also like to remark that the detection of a phase-transition requires a single order parameter, which cannot exist as q<sub>2</sub> and q<sub>6</sub> are independent.

      We have further explained this in the main text.

      Figure 7: The axes are not labeled.

      We added the labels.

      L359: ”q<sub>2</sub> and q<sub>6</sub> values cluster tightly”, L362 ”q<sub>2</sub> and q<sub>6</sub> values become highly scattered” Please, quantify.

      We kept these formulations but have added statistical measures to these qualitative descriptions, see Supplementary Figures to Fig 7 for the distance correlation and the P-values of the distance correlation. These data support our claim of independence.

      L362: ”each q<sub>2</sub> value spans a broad range of q<sub>6</sub> values and vice versa, demonstrating their independence”. Please, use a quantitative test of statistical independence.

      We have added statistical information by using the distance correlation and statistical tests, see Supplementary Figures to Fig 7. Similar results are obtained for the Pearson correlation and corresponding tests. However, they are not included as the distance correlation is more general.

      L371: Please, define Q<sub>2</sub> and Q<sub>6</sub> in the main text.

      We have now added the definition to the Materials and methods section.

      L420: A reference seems to be missing.

      Thanks for pointing this out. This was a formatting error, we only wanted to cite Balasubramaniam et al. (2021).

      L425: ”strong dependence of cell shape on cell density”. But q<sub>6</sub> seems to be rather independent of density, see Figure 11. Also, what do you mean by ”strong”? Can you quantify?

      The dependency of the cell shape on the cell density is shown in detail in (Eckert et al., 2023). Furthermore, to describe the cell shape the values for all p are needed. So the change in q<sub>2</sub> already indicates a change in the overall cell shape even as q<sub>6</sub> is barely changing. As we excluded these experimental results now in favor of the experimental data also used in Armengol-Collado et al. (2023), we did not add further evaluations regarding cell density.

      L453 ”These divergences [nonmonotonic dependence of γ<sub>p</sub> on activity or deformability] highlight the limitations of γ<sub>p</sub> in capturing consistent patterns”. I am not sure to follow your argument here.

      Besides the quantitative differences seen in comparing Fig. 1 and Fig 2 with the corresponding figures in the appendix, these results show qualitative differences. Using a method which is not robust and not continuous leads to qualitative different results. The nonmonotonic dependence of γ<sub>p</sub> is specific to the method but not to the underlying physics.

      Appendix 3 - Figure 20: It is not clear how to compare this figure to Figure 3e of Armengol-Collado et al 2023. Please, provide more details.

      Appendix 3 - Figure 20 (Appendix 3 - Figure 25 in the revised version) and Figure 3e in Armengol-Collado et al. (2023) cannot be directly compared. Fig 3e shows results of experiments and multiphase field simulations for one parameter stetting and Fig 20 results of the active vertex model for various parameter settings. But both are considered using γ<sub>p</sub> and Γ<sub>p</sub>. We have added these computation, see Fig. 13, which indeed reproduces the results from Fig 3e. We refrain from considering corresponding plots to Fig 20 for the multiphase field model, as this first requires computing the vertices and no additional information can be expected.

      Reviewer 2:

      The manuscript lacks statistical information. The following should be addressed: How often have the experiments been performed? How many monolayers have been analyzed? How many time steps have been considered and in what duration? How many cells have been included in the analysis? What are the p-values to determine if q<sub>p</sub>’s (Figure 2, panel a) and γ<sub>p</sub>’s (Appendix 3-Figure 17, panel a) are significantly different? Same figures: How many cells and experiments have been considered here? Figure 11: What is the density of cells for each condition? Please provide the corresponding values. How significant are the differences? How many times has the experiment been repeated? Figure 12: Due to cell proliferation, the cell density changes over time. Does this need to be taken into account?

      We agree, our information have only been qualitative. We have added the missing information. Especially we added statistical information by using the distance correlation and statistical tests, see Supplementary Figures to Fig. 7. Similar results are obtained for the Pearson correlation and corresponding tests (not included). As we excluded the experimental results previously shown in Figure 11 and Figure 12, in the revised version in favor of the experimental data that is already published in Armengol-Collado et al. (2023), we did not add further statistics regarding this. We added the number of frames and cells in the text.

      The image analysis part of the Method section states that time-series were xy-drift corrected, and cells were tracked. However, the manuscript does not contain results of dynamical data, timedependent analyses, or discussions of how q<sub>p</sub> changes over time. The authors mention that the fluidity of the tissue was confirmed by the MSD, neighbor number variance, and the self-intermediate scattering function, but none of the results are shown in the manuscript. I would like to ask the authors to provide the results and related content in the Method section.

      We have modified the description and removed all parts related to dynamical data. Due to the heavy overload of images in the manuscript we refrain from providing all the results for the phase diagram to distinguish solid and fluid phase. These measures have been provided previously for the considered modeling approaches and provide here only a side remark. Our results do not depend on an exact localization of a solid-fluid phase boundary.

      Additional information is missing in the Image analysis part of the Method section. Could the authors provide the information on the image analysis steps between obtaining the segmented image and inputting the parameters for the Minkowski tensor? This should include how the normal vectors have been determined and whether this has been done for all pixels along the contour.

      We added further details in the section Extraction of the contour in Experimental setup in Methods and Materials and also provide the code to compute q<sub>p</sub> for segmented images.

      The authors have analyzed low-resolution phase contrast images acquired with a 10x objective to experimentally support their introduced Minkowski tensors. This may have decreased the resolution of the cell boundary detection and its curvature. I strongly suggest imaging the tissue with higher magnification (40x or 63x) and/or fluorescent markers to visualize the cell boundaries in high quality. This would allow the authors to distinguish between circles and circle-like shapes (lines 432-434) and to further investigate differences between MDCK wild-type and MDCK E-cad KO cells.

      We agree that higher resolution of the images would be beneficial. However, we are convinced that this will not influence our findings. Instead of performing the experiments with higher magnification or using fluorescent markers, we have considered the experimental data from Armengol-Collado et al. (2023) to support our results.

      The authors have coarse-grained the shape function, Γ<sub>p</sub>, and have chosen the active vertex model (Appendix 3-Figure 20) for comparison with the Minkowski tensors, Q<sub>p</sub> (Appendix 2 Figure 13). In both figures, the hexatic-nematic crossover does not occur. Armengol-Collado et al. have previously reported that the Voronoi model failed to achieve the hexatic-nematic crossover and argued that this is due to the artificial enhancement of the polygon’s hexagonality, leading to high hexatic order at the tissue scale. Since the authors have used the Voronoi-tailing method (line 196), I would like to ask the authors to compare the multiphase field models for Γ<sub>p</sub> andQ<sub>p</sub> instead.

      We would like to mention that we do not consider a Voronoi model but an active vertex model. A Voronoi model is only used for initialization. Both models are certainly related but not identical and claims for a Voronoi model do not need to hold for an active vertex model. The suggested comparison for the multi phasefield model is not an easy task as it requires to compute the vertices from the phase field variables. There are gaps between cells and a reliable algorithm to identify the vertices is a task on its own. We, therefore, refrain from doing these calculations. Instead, we have used the experimental data from Armengol-Collado et al. (2023) for which the polygonal information are provided, see Figure 11. Especially for p \= 6, strong differences can be seen by comparing the PDF obtained by the full shape and the polygonal shape. Indeed, the strong hexatic order at the cellular scale is only a consequence of the approximation by polygons. With this result analysing the multi phasefield data by γ<sub>p</sub> does not add any new information as this first requires an approximation by polygons.

      The authors show the q<sub>p</sub> distributions for the experimental systems (Figure 2, Figure 11). For completeness, I would like to ask the authors to also coarse-grain q<sub>p</sub> and γ<sub>p</sub> of the experimental data as shown for the computational models in Appendix 2 - Figure 13 and Appendix 2 - Figure 14. It would be interesting to see if the hexatic-nematic crossover appears. I would recommend that the authors avoid using the Voronoi tailing of the experimental system, as this may fail to obtain the crossover as explained in (5) above. Instead, I suggest using the real vertex positions for γ<sub>p</sub>, which can be obtained from the segmented images.

      It remains open what is meant by ”the real vertex positions for γ<sub>p</sub>, which can be obtained from the segmented images”. Segmenting the images leads to smooth contours, partly even with gaps between cells. As the magnitude of γ<sub>p</sub> depends on the number of points used in the calculation it is not meaningful to use all points of the contour for calculating γ<sub>p</sub>, as this would lead to artificially low values for |γ<sub>p</sub>|. Identifying the vertex positions for an approximating polygon is an issue of its own and the consequence of this approximation is already mentioned above. For a comparison we therefore added the experimental data from Armengol-Collado et al (2023) and used the provided vertex positions to compute q<sub>p</sub> and γ<sub>p</sub> as well as the raw data and performed the segmentation and used these data to compute q<sub>p</sub>. See Figure 11. These results confirm our findings and show that the proposed nematic-hexatic phase transition is specific to γ<sub>p</sub> to characterize shape.

      In order to show that shape descriptors like the shape function, γ<sub>p</sub>, introduced by Armengol-Collado et al., ’fail to capture the nuance of irregular shapes’ (line 445), the authors have compared γ<sub>p</sub> with the Minkowski tensors, q<sub>p</sub>, using the same dataset (Figure 1 with Appendix 3 - Figure 16, Figure 2 with Appendix 3 - Figure 17, and Figure 4 with Appendix 3 - Figure 15 Appendix 3). I agree that γ<sub>p</sub> and q<sub>p</sub> are different, not showing identical values. However, I see no evidence in these figures that q<sub>p</sub> describes the symmetry of a cell better than γ<sub>p</sub>, since the values are similar and vary quite similarly between different p-atic orders. What is the quantitative difference that shows the failure of the shape function to capture the nuance of irregular shapes?

      The statement already follows from the mathematical properties of robustness and stability, which is illustrated in Fig. 6. The mentioned comparisons for simulation and experimental data only demonstrate that the lack of robustness and stability of γ<sub>p</sub> also leads to different results if applied to averages of cell measures. The differences are twofold, first the approximation of cells by polygons leads to different results, and second even for polygons different results follow, as only one approach is continuous and the other not. This has strong consequences for the proposed nematic-hexatic phase transition if coarse-grained. Our added results for the experimental data from Armengo-Collado et al. (2023) show that this behavior is not a physical feature but only specific to the use of γ<sub>p</sub>.

      The authors claim that the Minkowski tensors provide a ’reliable framework’ and that this framework ’opens new pathways for understanding the role of orientational symmetries in tissue mechanics and development’ (line 78-79). However, the p-atic orders in the experimental systems peak at very low orders of q<sub>p</sub> < 0.3, which may not allow conclusions about (non-)dominant orientational symmetry(ies) of cells. Can this framework be applied to experimental systems? Since the Minkowski tensors display the independence of the hexatic and nematic symmetry, the variations of cell shapes in experimental systems are too strong to provide any additional results (line 437), as stated by the authors, and no crossover was found, while the crossover was reported by Armengol-Collado et al., what new pathways can be opened to study tissues?

      We have added a comparison with experimental data from Armengol-Collado et al. (2023) and demonstrate that the proposed nematic-hexatic transition is only specific to the use of γ<sub>p</sub> for characterizing the shape. So our results first of all essentially close the ”pathway for understanding the role of orientational symmetries in tissue mechanics and development”, which was proposed on this nematic-hexatic transition. On the other side, even if q<sub>p</sub> peaks at relatively low values, the results demonstrate independence of the measures for different p’s, for two different modeling approaches and two different sets of experimental data. This motivates to consider p-atic order for different p simultaneously. Such theories of ”multi”-p-atic liquid crystals, as proposed in the conclusions, are the mentioned new pathways.

      In principle, the introduced Minkowski tensors integrate the orientation of the normal vectors (Equation 6) and consider the perimeter of the contour (Equation 1). Do the tensors distinguish between convex and concave curvature since both are present in tissues? Does a square with 4 concave and a square with 4 convex edges (same curvature) have the same q<sub>p</sub> values?

      For the specific situation of a square with 4 concave or 4 convex edges even p would lead to the same orientation and the same value for q<sub>p</sub>, as even p have a 180 degree symmetry. Odd p would result in the same value for q<sub>p</sub> but in a different orientation ϑ<sub>p</sub>. In more general cases, e.g. shapes with concave and convex edges, no general statements can be made. In general the theoretical results on stability of q<sub>p</sub> only hold for convex shapes. However, as discussed in Methods and materials the known counterexamples for concave shapes are not relevant for cell shapes.

      In lines 169-172 and Figure 6, the authors report a jump in γ<sub>p</sub>. Why has the fourth vertex in the last image been removed? The vertices are essential for the calculation of γ<sub>p</sub>. If the fourth vertex is not removed, the following values result: γ<sub>3</sub> = 0.935 and γ<sub>4</sub> = 0.474, which leads to changes of the same order of magnitude as those of q<sub>p</sub>. I think it is therefore not the choice of the center of mass that ’heavily influences the value of γ<sub>p</sub>’, but the removal of the fourth vertex.

      We adjusted the caption to make our point more clear. The last image is a triangle and according to the definition of γ<sub>p</sub> is therefore described by only three vertices. The reviewer is right that the value of γ<sub>p</sub> has a strong dependency of the number of used vertices, this is exactly the point that we are trying to make with this figure. An equilateral triangle should be recognized as an equilateral triangle, no matter if there is an artificial fourth vertex or not. The triangle in our picture and the triangle that the reviewer described (so our triangle with an artificial fourth vertex) both have the shape of an equilateral triangle, yet for one |γ<sub>3</sub>| = 1.0 and for the other one it is |γ<sub>3</sub>| = 0.935. This can be seen even more clearly if even more artificial vertices on the outline of the equilateral triangle are added, which will decrease |γ<sub>3</sub>| even more. Furthermore, we think there was a misunderstanding regarding our statement about the center of mass. The general problem of γ<sub>p</sub> - so the dependence of the values on the number of vertices - is independent of the calculation of the center of mass. The exact values of γ<sub>p</sub> on the other hand depend on the choice of this. We follow Armengol-Collado et al. (2023) and use the mean of all vertex coordinates as center of mass. If the reviewer would use the center of mass of the equilateral triangle and do the same calculations the resulting values for γ<sub>p</sub> would be different. This is what we meant with ’heavily influences the value of γ<sub>p</sub>’.

      In Appendix 3 - Figure 18, the authors show that the shape function, γ<sub>6</sub>, exhibits a non-monotonic trend as a function of activity and deformability. I have no objection to this statement. However, I would like to ask the authors to check the values for γ<sub>6</sub>. In the bottom-left corner, for example, γ<sub>6</sub> = 0.55. This value seems very low to me. In Appendix 3-Figure 20, |Q<sub>6</sub>| for R/Rcell = 2 is already in this range, while |Q<sub>6</sub>| for R/Rcell = 1 (not shown), corresponding to γ<sub>6</sub>, must be even higher. Also, the parameters p<sub>6</sub> = 3.5 and v<sub>0</sub> = 0.1 should result in a nearly hexagonal lattice, which should be captured with high γ<sub>6</sub> values. I would expect γ<sub>6</sub> to be in the same range as q<sub>6</sub>.

      Many thanks for pointing this out. There are two different points addressed in this question: The first is if |Γ<sub>p</sub>| is too high. We checked the values, |Γ<sub>p</sub>| = 0.5075 for R/R<sub>cell</sub> = 2, so it is lower than = 0.58. The second question is why γ<sub>p</sub> and q<sub>p</sub> are not in the same value range. You are right that for a perfectly hexagonal lattice both should give the same value, namely = = 1.0. However, even at p<sub>6</sub> = 3.5 and v<sub>0</sub> = 0.1 this is not a perfectly hexagonal lattice anymore and how fast the values of q<sub>6</sub> and |γ<sub>6</sub>| drop if we move away from a perfect hexagon scales differently. As q<sub>p</sub> is stable and only changes slightly for slight changes in the shape it makes sense, that q<sub>p</sub> is still close to 1.0 . We included an image, see below, of one time step in said parameter to showcase that cells do not form a perfect hexagonal lattice anymore.

      Reviewer 3:

      Could the authors show why and how this method could bring new information which were missing so far in the understanding of morphogenesis in vitro and in vivo with the current quantification?

      The introduction provides examples of how orientational order and its topological defects can be linked to morphological changes in tissues. The orientational order emerges from the shape of the cells. Most commonly nematic order has been considered, but more recently also hexatic order and even a nematic-hexactic crossover on larger scales. This suggests a mechanical mechanism for morphogenesis, like a phase transition from hexatic to nematic, which would have consequences on the evolution of shape. We demonstrate that the measures q<sub>2</sub> and q<sub>6</sub> are independent. Furthermore the proposed nematic-hexatic transition is only specific to the use of γ<sub>p</sub> for characterizing the shape and coarse-graining of the associated order. These measures are not robust and therefore should not be used. Results for the robust measures q<sub>p</sub> suggest to consider all p for a coarse-grained theory to model morphological changes in tissues.

      Could authors show quantitative comparisons between available methods with the same sets of data and highlight pros and cons?

      Author response image 1.

      Screenshot from p<sub>6</sub> = 3.5 and v<sub>0</sub> = 0.1

      In addition to what was already done for the simulation data we have added data from Armengol-Collado et al. (2023) and compared the results for q<sub>p</sub> and Q<sub>p<sub> and γ<sub>p</sub> and Γ<sub>p</sub>. The theoretical results and the illustrating example in Fig. 6 already show that there are no pros for γ<sub>p</sub>. Other methods belong to the class of bond-order methods and measure neighbor relations instead of shape. We already comment that these methods are inappropriate to classify shape, see Methods and materials, last sentence and Mickel et al. (2013) for a detailed discussion why these methods are not robust.

      Instead of using phase contrast images, which exhibit curved cell-cell contours, could authors use data with E-cadherin staining instead - as used in many epithelial studies in vitro and in vivo? Could they show both images for wild type and for the E-cadherin KO cell lines with fluorescent readout?

      We are convinced that our results do not depend on the way to visualize the cell contours. Furthermore the images do not provide additional information. To further strengthen the experimental part of the manuscript, we instead analyzed data from Armengol-Collado et al. (2023).

      They confirm our findings.

      The authors acknowledge differences in density between cell lines p. 13 so this calls for new experiments with solid readouts and analysis using comparable experimental conditions.

      Additionally, we analyzed data from Armengol-Collado et al. (2023) which confirm our findings. Our results are now supported by two different modeling approaches and two different experimental settings. Because of redundancy we removed the original experimental data from the revised manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, the authors employed direct RNA sequencing with nanopores, enhanced by 5' end adaptor ligation, to comprehensively interrogate the human transcriptome at singlemolecule and nucleotide resolution. They conclude that cellular stress induces prevalent 5' end RNA decay that is coupled to translation and ribosome occupancy. Contrary to the literature, they found that, unlike typical RNA decay models in normal conditions, stress-induced RNA decay is dependent on XRN1 but does not depend on the removal of the poly(A) tail. The findings presented are interesting but a substantial amount of work is needed to fully establish these paradigm-shifting findings.

      Strengths:

      These are paradigm-shifting observations using cutting-edge technologies.

      Weaknesses:

      The conclusions do not appear to be fully supported by the data presented.

      Our response to the reviewer comments is provided at the end of this document in the section "Recommendations For The Authors"

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      In the manuscript "Full-length direct RNA sequencing uncovers stress-granule dependent RNA decay upon cellular stress", Dar, Malla, and colleagues use direct RNA sequencing on nanopores to characterize the transcriptome after arsenite and oxidative stress. They observe a population of transcripts that are shortened during stress. The authors hypothesize that this shortening is mediated by the 5'-3' exonuclease XRN1, as XRN1 knockdown results in longer transcripts. Interestingly, the authors do not observe a polyA-tail shortening, which is typically thought to precede decapping and XRN1-mediated transcript decay. Finally, the authors use G3BP1 knockout cells to demonstrate that stress granule formation is required for the observed transcript shortening.

      The manuscript contains intriguing findings of interest to the mRNA decay community. That said, it appears that the authors at times overinterpret the data they get from a handful of direct RNA sequencing experiments. To bolster some of the statements additional experiments might be desirable.

      A selection of comments:

      (1) Considering that the authors compare the effects of stress, stress granule formation, and XRN1 loss on transcriptome profiles, it would be desirable to use a single-cell system (and validated in a few more). Most of the direct RNAseq is performed in HeLa cells, but the experiments showing that stress granule formation is required come from U2OS cells, while short RNAseq data showing loss of coverage on mRNA 5'ends is reanalyzed from HEK293 cells. It may be plausible that the same pathways operate in all those cells, but it is not rigorously demonstrated.

      We agree with the reviewer that performing all experiments in a single cell system would be desirable. Presently, our core findings on 5’ RNA shortening are all performed in HeLa cells: the identification of 5’ RNA shortening, the reliance of shortening through XRN1 silencing, suppression of shortening by translation inhibition, and now the relationship between 5’ shortening and deadenylation/decapping through experiments described further below. Our use of other cell lines is primarily to show that 5’ shortening is a general phenomenon, and we have now done this for U20S cells, HEK293 cells, and primary 3T3 cells from mouse. 

      Regarding stress granule formation, we are unfortunately restricted by the lack of available wellcharacterized resources. The DDG3BP1/2 U2OS is a well characterized cell line that has been extensively used for stress granule-related experiments. We have therefore opted to use it and performed experiments to verify both the occurrence of stress-induced RNA shortening as well as the rescue in the absence of stress granules. The reproducibility and breadth of the cell lines used in our analysis makes us confident on the generality of our findings.

      (2) An interesting finding of the manuscript is that polyA tail shortening is not observed prior to transcript shortening. The authors would need to demonstrate that their approach is capable of detecting shortened polyA tails. Using polyA purified RNA to look at the status of polyA tail length may not be ideal (as avidity to oligodT beads may increase with polyA tail length and therefore the authors bias themselves to longer tails anyway). At the very least, the use of positive controls would be desirable; e.g. knockdown of CCR4/NOT.

      We thank the reviewer for their comment. Previous studies, using in vitro transcribed RNA molecules, have shown that direct RNA sequencing can capture and quantify poly(A) tails of varying lengths (Krause et al. 2019). Specifically, a range of 10 to 150 nt has been tested and a high concordance between known and dRNA-Seq determined values was observed. Both tailfindR and nanopolish (used in this work) showed high poly(A) tail estimation accuracy.

      Regardless, we agree with the reviewer that our method depends on poly(A) tail capture and thus may be incomplete for fully quantifying poly(A) length changes. We therefore opted to replace these data and instead follow this and other reviewers’ suggestions and perform experiments following knockdown of CCR4/NOT using cells expressing a catalytically inactive CNOT8 (CNOT8*) dominant negative mutant (Chang et al. 2019). Our new data show that stress-induced 5’ end decay is indeed not dependent on prior removal of the poly(A) tail. Specifically, we find that transcript shortening is still observed upon oxidative stress in cells expressing CNOT8* compared to control cells. We present these new results in Fig. 3 and Sup. Fig 3. 

      (3) The authors use a strategy of ligating an adapter to 5' phosphorylated RNA (presumably the breakdown fragments) to be able to distinguish true mRNA fragments from artifacts of abortive nanopore sequencing. This is a fantastic approach to curating a clean dataset. Unfortunately, the authors don't appear to go through with discarding fragments that are not adapter-ligated (presumably to increase the depth of analysis; they do offer Figure 1e that shows similar changes in transcript length for fragments with adapter, compared to Figure 1d). It would be good to know how many reads in total had the adapter. Furthermore, it would be good to know what percentage of reads without adapters are products of abortive sequencing. What percentage of reads had 5'OH ends (could be answered by ligating a different adapter to kinasetreated transcripts). More read curation would also be desirable when building the metagene analysis - why do the authors include every 3'end of sequenced reads (their RNA purification scheme requires a polyA tail, so non-polyadenylated fragments are recovered in a nonquantitative manner and should be discarded).

      We thank the reviewer for appreciating our approach. The reviewer is correct that we do not discard reads that are not adapter-ligated. As the reviewer correctly mentions this is to increase the sequencing depth. We have found that the ligation efficiency is very low, ~1-2 % of total reads (now in Sup. Table. 1), across all libraries, and so the percentage of REL5-ligated reads does not directly infer the total amount of non-artifactual 5’ ends. Instead, we use these REL5ligated reads as a subset of our data for which we have extremely high confidence in the true 5’end. Our results show that non-ligated reads display the same length distribution as ligated ones, and that the results are reproducible regardless of read selection (e.g. Fig. 1c, e, Sup. Fig. 1k, l, Fig. 3b, c). This strong concordance between REL5-ligated and non-ligated reads suggests that our conclusions on 5’ end shortening are not substantially influenced by abortive sequencing or other artefactual creation of 5’ shortening. We have modified the text to clarify these points and have added plots using only ligated molecules for relevant figures that this was not previously done (Sup. Fig 1l, 3c)

      We agree with the reviewer that non-polyadenylated reads could be discarded from metagene analysis and we have performed this change in the revised version. Our conclusions following removal of non-polyadenylated reads remain unchanged (Sup. Fig. 1g).

      (4) The authors should come to a clear conclusion about what "transcript shortening" means. Is it exonucleolytic shortening from the 5'end? They cannot say much about the 3'ends anyway (see above). Or are we talking about endonucleolytic cuts leaving 5'P that then can be attached by XRN1 (again, what is the ratio of 5'P and 5'OH fragments; also, what is the ratio of shortened to full-length RNA)?

      We thank the reviewer for their suggestion. We have performed additional experiments to investigate the role of deadenylation and decapping by expressing dominant negative forms of the NOT8 deadenylase (NOT8*) and DCP2 decapping (DCP2*) enzyme in HeLa cells. Our results show that neither expression of NOT8* nor DCP2* can inhibit stress-induced transcript shortening following arsenite treatment (Fig. 3e-f). These new data suggest that neither deadenylation nor decapping are required for stress-induced RNA decay. Instead, our data are more compatible with endonucleolytic cleavage as the most likely mechanism for stressinduced RNA decay. We have incorporated these results in the text and present them in Fig. 3 and Sup. Fig. 3.

      (5) The authors should clearly explain how they think the transcript shortening comes about. They claim it does not need polyA shortening, but then do not explain where the XRN1 substrate comes from. Does their effect require decapping? Or endonucleolytic attacks?

      Please also refer to our answer to the previous comment (#4). Collectively, our results from a) the dominant negative expression of NOT8* and DCP2* that show no effect on stress-induced shortening and b) the rescue of transcript length upon translation initiation inhibition, indicate a potential endonucleolytic mechanism as a mediator of stress-induced RNA decay. However, we believe that extensive, further studies currently beyond the scope of this work, will be required to discover the nuclease and to dissect the exact molecular mechanisms that define the 5' ends of mRNAs upon stress-induced decay. We now discuss these points in the discussion.

      (6) XRN1 KD results in lengthened transcripts. That is not surprising as XRN1 is an exonuclease - and XRN1 does not merely rescue arsenite stress-mediated transcript shortening, but results in a dramatic transcript lengthening.

      The reviewer raises an intriguing point. Additional analysis of data has showed that in fact, in unstressed cells, XRN1 KD leads to modestly significant reduction in overall transcript length (Fig. 3b, c). This could possibly be the result of an accumulation of intermediate cleavage products normally expected to be degraded by XRN1 as previously described (Pelechano, Wei, and Steinmetz 2015; Ibrahim et al. 2018).

      Instead, we find that under stress, XRN1 KD shows an almost identical transcript length distribution to unstressed cells and significantly higher than siCTRL stressed cells (Fig. 3b, c). These results indicate that in the absence of XRN1, stress-induced decay is largely abolished. As the reviewer correctly points out, this seems to affect the majority of RNAs which we believe is evidence of the general lack of specificity in the mechanism. Nevertheless, we find that transcripts that are the primary substrates to stress-induced shortening are substantially more lengthened than all other transcripts (Fig. 3e). This indicates that transcripts primarily affected by stress-induced decay are also lengthened the most in the absence of XRN1 and at an even higher level than expected by general XRN1 KD effects.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      The work by Dar et al. examines RNA metabolism under cellular stress, focusing on stressgranule-dependent RNA decay. It employs direct RNA sequencing with a Nanopore-based method, revealing that cellular stress induces prevalent 5' end RNA decay that is coupled to translation and ribosome occupancy but is independent of the shortening of the poly(A) tail. This decay, however, is dependent on XRN1 and enriched in the stress granule transcriptome. Notably, inhibiting stress granule formation in G3BP1/2-null cells restores the RNA length to the same level as wild-type. It suppresses stress-induced decay, identifying RNA decay as a critical determinant of RNA metabolism during cellular stress and highlighting its dependence on stress-granule formation.

      This is an exciting and novel discovery. I am not an expert in sequencing technologies or sequencing data analysis, so I will limit my comments purely to biology and not technical points. The PI is a leader in applying innovative sequencing methods to studying mRNA decay.

      One aspect that appeared overlooked is that poly(A) tail shortening per se does lead to decapping. It is shortening below a certain threshold of 8-10 As that triggers decapping. Therefore, I found the conclusion that poly(A) tail shortening is not required for stress-induced decay to be somewhat premature. For a robust test of this hypothesis, the authors should consider performing their analysis in conditions where CNOT7/8 is knocked down with siRNA.

      We agree with the reviewer. We have now performed experiments in cells expressing a well characterized catalytically inactive dominant negative NOT8 isoform (NOT8*) (Chang et al.

      2019). Our new data show that stress-induced decay still occurs in cells expressing NOT8*.

      These results confirm our findings that stress-induced decay does not require deadenylation. We present these new results in Fig. 3 and Sup. Fig. 3. 

      Similarly, as XRN1 requires decapping to take place, it necessitates the experiment where a dominant-negative DCP2 mutant is over-expressed.

      We agree with the reviewer and have performed this experiment as requested. Expression of a dominant negative DCP2 (DCP2*) isoform (Loh, Jonas, and Izaurralde 2013) in HeLa cells showed that decapping is also not required for stress-induced decay. We present these new results in Fig. 3 and Sup. Fig. 3.

      Are G3BP1/2 stress granules required for stress-induced decay or simply sites for storage? This part seems unclear. A very worthwhile test here would be to assess in XRN1-null background.

      We thank the reviewer for their comment. Our data show that stress-induced decay is not observed in DDG3BP1/2 U2OS cells, unable to form stress granules (Fig. 6). This result suggests that G3BP1/2 SGs are either a) required for 5’ RNA shortening or b) preserve partially fragmented RNAs that would otherwise be rapidly degraded. We find the second option unlikely for two reasons. First, even if the fragments were rapidly degraded, we would still expect to find evidence of their presence in our data. However, Fig. 6f shows that the length distribution of DDG3BP1/2 U2OS cells, with and without arsenite, are almost identical, thus arguing against the presence of such a pool of rapidly degrading RNAs. Second, if these RNAs were protected by SGs, then they would be expected to be downregulated in the absence of SGs in DDG3BP1/2 U2OS cells treated with arsenite. Our results contradict this hypothesis as no association is found between the level of downregulation in arsenite-treated DDG3BP1/2 U2OS cells and the observed stress-induced fragmentation in WT. Collectively our results point towards G3BP1/2 stress granules being required for stress-induced decay. We have expanded on these points in the manuscript to clarify.

      Finally, the authors speculate that the mechanism of stress-induced decay may have evolved to relieve translational load during stress. But why degrade the 5' end when removing the cap may be sufficient? This returns to the question of assessing the role of decapping in this mechanism.

      The reviewer raises a very interesting point. Our new results, following expression of dominant negative DCP2, show that stress-induced decay does not require decapping. It is therefore plausible that a stress-induced co-translational mechanism cleaves mRNAs endonucleolyticaly to reduce the translational load. Such a mechanism would have many functional benefits as it would acutely reduce the translational load, degrade non-essential RNAs, preserve energy and release ribosomes for translation of the stress response program. We have expanded the discussion to mention these points.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewing Editor (Recommendations For The Authors):

      As you can see from the comments, although the reviewers appreciate the novelty of your findings, there was a consensus opinion from all reviewers that the authors overinterpreted their data, since they only have one assay and did not fully analyze it, as laid out in one of the reviewer's critiques. Some orthogonal validation of the "groundbreaking" claims is necessary. Examination of the effects of upstream events in 5'-to-3' decay, namely deadenylation, and decapping, would be necessary for a better understanding of the phenomena the authors describe. Many tools and approaches for studying this are described well in the literature (CNOT7-KD, dominant negative DCP2 E148Q, XRN1-null cell lines), so it is well within the authors' reach. Overall, while some of the evidence presented is novel and solid, for some of the claims there is only incomplete evidence.

      We thank the reviewers and the editor for their comments and suggestions. We have performed several additional experiments to further support our conclusions. We have notably investigated the role of deadenylation and decapping in the stress-induced decay by expressing dominant negative NOT8 and DCP2, respectively, as suggested. Our results show that neither deadenylation nor decapping is necessary for stress-induced transcript shortening, suggesting an endonucleolytic event. We believe that these additional experiments strengthen the main conclusions of our work. 

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Major comments:

      (1) The experiments were conducted in two unrelated cell lines, HeLa and U2OS. The authors should determine if the 5'end RNA decay in response to stress is also observed in normal human cells such as normal human diploid fibroblasts. Furthermore, it would be important to know if this mechanism is conserved between human and mouse cells. This can be tested in mouse embryonic fibroblasts.

      We thank the reviewer for their suggestion. We have now also performed experiments in the mouse embryonic fibroblast NIH 3T3 cell line. Our new results confirm that stress-induced 5’ end RNA decay is also observed in this primary cell line and is conserved between human and mouse (Sup. Fig. 1k, I). 

      (2) The authors state that they monitored cell viability up to 24 hours after Arsenite treatment, but the data is shown up to 240 min (Suppl. 1a). Also, the Y-axis label of this Figure is "Active cells (%)". This should be changed to "Live cells (%)" if this is what they are referring to.

      We thank the reviewer for identifying this mistake. Cell viability was monitored up to 4 hours after arsenite treatment. We have corrected the text and modified the figure according to the reviewer’s suggestion.

      (3) Based on direct Nanopore-based RNA-seq the authors surprisingly found that RNAs in oxidative stress were globally shorter than unstressed cells. Since Nanopore-based RNA-seq will not detect RNAs that lack a poly A-tail, are they not missing out on RNAs that have already started getting degraded due to the loss of a poly A-tail? Also, I am not sure if they used a spikein control which would be critical to claim global changes in RNA expression.

      We agree with the reviewer that our strategy does not capture RNA molecules without a poly(A) tail. Nevertheless, our data do identify shortening upon stress at the 5’ end of RNAs that include poly(A) tails. We considered this as direct evidence that decay at the 5’ end does not require prior removal of the poly(A) tail. Otherwise, these molecules would not have been captured and observed. Indeed, our newly added data from cells expressing a well characterized catalytically inactive dominant negative NOT8 isoform (Chang et al. 2019) show that stress-induced decay occurs even upon silencing of the CCR4-NOT deadenylation complex. We present these results in Fig. 3 and Sup. Fig 3.

      We would like to clarify that in our results we did not use a spike-in control and thus refrain from claiming global changes in RNA expression. Instead, we compare relative ratios of groups of molecules within libraries that are internally normalized, we perform correlative comparisons that are invariant to normalization and we perform differential gene expression using established normalization schemes such as DESeq2 (Love, Huber, and Anders 2014). 

      (4) Many graphs are confusing and inconsistent. For example, samples for Nanopore RNA-seq were prepared in triplicates. Biological or technical? The schematic in Figure 1a shows ISRIB but it appears from Figure 4 onwards. It is missing in the Figure 1 results and the Figure legend. The X-axis labels of many graphs are confusing. For example, Supplementary Figure 1d, 1e, 1g and 1h. It says transcript length but are these nucleotides? P-values are missing from many of these graphs. For some graphs, the authors compared Unstressed vs Arsenite (Figure 1), but in other panels they state No Ars vs 0.5 mM Ars (Fig. 3a) or Control vs Ars (Figure 5c). Likewise, in Figure 1b, Expression change (log2) is unstressed vs Arsenite or Arsenite vs unstressed?

      We thank the reviewer identifying these inconsistencies in the presentation of our results. The replicates for nanopore RNA-seq experiments were biological. We have now clarified this point in the text. Furthermore, we have removed “ISRIB” from Fig. 1a to avoid any confusion. We have also made our labelling across all figures more consistent using ‘unstressed’ for NO arsenite treatment vs “arsenite” or ‘+ Ars’ for arsenite treatment. 

      (5) The authors transfected cells with siCTRL or siXRN1 using electroporation and treated the cells 72 hours after transfection. Since XRN1 is an essential gene, it would be important to determine the viability of cells 72 hours after transfection. Along these lines, in Figure 3b, it would be important to determine the effect of XRN1 knockdown in unstressed cells. Currently, there are only 3 comparisons in Figure 3b - unstressed, siCTRL + Ars and siXRN1 + Ars, and this is insufficient to conclude the effects of XRN1 knockdown in the presence of Arsenite.

      We thank the reviewer for their suggestion. We have updated Fig. 3b and the text to show the requested conditions: siCTRL and siXRN1 with and without arsenite. While XRN2 is an essential gene for many organisms, XRN1 is not essential in mammalian cells and no increased cell death has been reported for XRN1-KO or –KD cells (Brothers et al. 2023). We have also tested different concentration (up to 40 nM) of siRNA and monitored the cells up to five days after transfection without observing any cell toxicity, as previously reported.

      (6) More broadly, the whole study is somewhat descriptive. The biological effect of 5'end mRNA shortening on gene expression is unclear. There is no data indicating how these changes in RNA lengths impact protein expression. Global quantitative proteomics would be critical to determine this.

      We thank the reviewer for their suggestion. To address this concern we have performed additional experiments using cells expressing catalytically inactive forms of NOT8 (Chang et al. 2019) and DCP2 (Loh, Jonas, and Izaurralde 2013) to inhibit deadenylation and decapping.

      These experiments provide additional mechanistic details for 5’ shortening and suggest endonucleolytic cleavage as a critical step (Fig. 3 and Sup. Fig. 3). We agree that it would be interesting to study the fate of these shortened transcripts notably regarding translation. However, given the complexity of the expected proteome changes also following global translation arrest under stress (Harding et al., 2003; Pakos-Zebrucka et al., 2016), we think that this work is beyond the scope of this manuscript and will be the subject of future studies. 

      Minor comments:

      (1) Some of the affected RNAs can be validated in HeLa and other cell lines.

      We thank the reviewer for their suggestion. We have performed RT-qPCR on 3 different mRNAs that present 5’ shortening upon oxidative stress using different primers located along the mRNA. We hypothesized that the closer the primer set is located to the 5’ end, the less abundant the corresponding region would be for arsenite-treated compared to untreated cells. Our results show indeed that the measured level of these mRNAs depends on the location of the primer sets used for the qPCR, the closer to the 5’end it is, the less abundant the mRNA is upon oxidative stress compared to control cells. We present these data as well as a schematic representing the positions of the primers in Sup. Fig. 2d. 

      (2) The authors should check whether XRN1 also co-localizes in SGs.

      We thank the reviewer for their suggestion. We have performed immunofluorescence on U2OS and HeLa upon oxidative stress and did not observe a co-localization of XRN1 with TIA-1, a marker of stress granules (see below). These results are consistent with (Kedersha et al. 2005) that have shown that XRN1 mainly co-localizes to processing bodies and are very weakly detectable in SGs in DU145 cells. We think that this result is beyond the scope of this study and thus decided to only include it for the reviewers.

      Author response image 1.

      Representative immunofluorescence merged image of HeLa (left panel) and U2OS (right panel) cells treated with sodium arsenite and labelled with anti-TIA1 (red), anti-XRN1 (green) antibodies and DAPI (blue). Scale bar 50 µm.

      (3) XRN1 should be knocked down with more than one siRNA.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. Our results show that our XRN1 KD specifically rescues the length of the most shortened mRNAs (Fig. 3e). This is a highly specific effect that makes us confident it is not mediated by non-specific siRNA binding; thus, we do not consider it necessary to repeat the experiment.

      (4) There are typos in the text regarding Figure 6d, e, and f. Also, Supplementary Figure 4a.

      We thank the reviewer for identifying these mistakes. We have corrected the typos. 

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The authors should consider testing their hypotheses by arresting the decay pathway using the approaches I mentioned previously. As it stands, some conclusions are somewhat speculative.

      We have replied to the reviewer comments in the public review section. 

      References:

      • Brothers, William R., Farah Ali, Sam Kajjo, and Marc R. Fabian. 2023. “The EDC4-XRN1 Interaction Controls P-Body Dynamics to Link MRNA Decapping with Decay.” The EMBO Journal, August, e113933.

      • Chang, Chung-Te, Sowndarya Muthukumar, Ramona Weber, Yevgen Levdansky, Ying Chen, Dipankar Bhandari, Catia Igreja, Lara Wohlbold, Eugene Valkov, and Elisa Izaurralde. 2019. “A Low-Complexity Region in Human XRN1 Directly Recruits Deadenylation and Decapping Factors in 5’-3’ Messenger RNA Decay.” Nucleic Acids Research 47 (17): 9282–95.

      • Harding, Heather P., Yuhong Zhang, Huiquing Zeng, Isabel Novoa, Phoebe D. Lu, Marcella Calfon, Navid Sadri, et al. 2003. “An Integrated Stress Response Regulates Amino Acid Metabolism and Resistance to Oxidative Stress.” Molecular Cell 11 (3): 619–33.

      • Ibrahim, Fadia, Manolis Maragkakis, Panagiotis Alexiou, and Zissimos Mourelatos. 2018. “Ribothrypsis, a Novel Process of Canonical MRNA Decay, Mediates Ribosome-Phased MRNA Endonucleolysis.” Nature Structural & Molecular Biology 25 (4): 302–10.

      • Kedersha, Nancy, Georg Stoecklin, Maranatha Ayodele, Patrick Yacono, Jens Lykke-Andersen, Marvin J. Fritzler, Donalyn Scheuner, Randal J. Kaufman, David E. Golan, and Paul Anderson. 2005. “Stress Granules and Processing Bodies Are Dynamically Linked Sites of MRNP Remodeling.” The Journal of Cell Biology 169 (6): 871–84.

      • Krause, Maximilian, Adnan M. Niazi, Kornel Labun, Yamila N. Torres Cleuren, Florian S. Müller, and Eivind Valen. 2019. “Tailfindr: Alignment-Free Poly(A) Length Measurement for Oxford Nanopore RNA and DNA Sequencing.” RNA  25 (10): 1229–41.

      • Loh, Belinda, Stefanie Jonas, and Elisa Izaurralde. 2013. “The SMG5-SMG7 Heterodimer Directly Recruits the CCR4-NOT Deadenylase Complex to MRNAs Containing Nonsense Codons via Interaction with POP2.” Genes & Development 27 (19): 2125–38.

      • Love, Michael I., Wolfgang Huber, and Simon Anders. 2014. “Moderated Estimation of Fold Change and Dispersion for RNA-Seq Data with DESeq2.” Genome Biology 15 (12): 550.

      • Pakos-Zebrucka, Karolina, Izabela Koryga, Katarzyna Mnich, Mila Ljujic, Afshin Samali, and Adrienne M. Gorman. 2016. “The Integrated Stress Response.” EMBO Reports 17 (10): 1374–95.

      • Pelechano, Vicent, Wu Wei, and Lars M. Steinmetz. 2015. “Widespread Co-Translational RNA Decay Reveals Ribosome Dynamics.” Cell 161 (6): 1400–1412.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Strengths:

      The three experiments are well designed and the various conditions are well controlled. The rationale of the study is clear, and the manuscript is pleasant to read. The analysis choices are easy to follow, and mostly appropriate.

      We are grateful to the reviewer’s thoughtful comments.

      Weaknesses:

      I only have one potential worry. The analysis for gait tracking (1 Hz) in Experiment 2 (Figures 3a/b) starts by computing a congruency effect (A/V stimulation congruent (same frequency) versus A/V incongruent (V at 1 Hz, A at either 0.6 or 1.4 Hz), separately for the Upright and Inverted conditions. Then, this congruency effect is contrasted between Upright and Inverted, in essence computing an interaction score (Congruent/Incongruent X Upright/Inverted). Then, the channels in which this interaction score is significant (by cluster-based permutation test; Figure 3a) are subselected for further analysis. This further analysis is shown in Figure 3b and described in lines 195-202. Critically, the further analysis exactly mirrors the selection criteria, i.e. it is aimed at testing the effect of Congruent/Incongruent and Upright/Inverted. This is colloquially known as "double dipping", the same contrast is used for selection (of channels, in this case) as for later statistical testing. This should be avoided, since in this case even random noise might result in a significant effect. To strengthen the evidence, either the authors could use a selection contrast that is orthogonal to the subsequent statistical test, or they could skip either the preselection step or the subsequent test. (It could be argued that the test in Figure 3b and related text is not needed to make the point - that same point is already made by the cluster-based permutation test.)

      Thanks for the helpful suggestions. In Experiment 2, to investigate whether the multisensory integration effect was specialized for biological motion perception, we contrasted the congruency effect between the upright and inverted conditions to search for clusters showing a significant interaction effect. We performed further analyses based on neural responses from this cluster to examine whether the congruency effect was significant in the upright and the inverted conditions, respectively, following the logic of post hoc comparisons after identifying an interaction effect. However, we agree with the reviewer that comparing the congruency effects between the upright and inverted conditions again based on data from this cluster was redundant and resulted in doubledipping. Therefore, we have removed this comparison from the main text and optimized the way to present our results in the revised Fig. 3).

      Related to the above: the test for the three-way interaction (lines 211-216) is reported as "marginally significant", with a p-value of 0.087. This is not very strong evidence.

      As shown in Fig.3b & e, the magnitude of amplitude differs between the gaitcycle frequency (mean = 0.008, SD = 0.038) and the step-cycle frequency (mean = 0.052; SD =0.056), which might influence the statistical results of the interaction effect. To reduce such influence, we converted the amplitude data at each frequency condition into Z-scores, separately. The repeated-measures ANOVA analysis on these normalized amplitude data revealed a significant three-way interaction (F (1,23) = 7.501, p = 0.012, ƞ<sub>p</sub><sup>2</sup> \= 0.246). We have updated the results in the revised manuscript (lines 218-225).

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      -  Which variable caused one data point to be classified as outlier? (line 221).

      The outlier is a participant whose audiovisual congruency effect (Upright – Inverted) in neural responses at the frequency of interest exceeds 3 SD from the group mean. It is marked by a red diamond in Author response 2. Before removing the data, the correlation between the AQ score and the congruency effect is r \= -0.396, p \= 0.055. For comparison, the results after removing the outlier are shown in Fig. 3c of the revised manuscript. We have added more information about the variable causing the outlier in the revised manuscript (lines 231-232).

      Author response image 1.

      The correlation between AQ score and congruency effect

      -  The authors cite Maris & Oostenveld (2007) in line 415 as the main reference for the FieldTrip toolbox, but the correct reference here is different, see https://www.fieldtriptoolbox.org/faq/how_should_i_refer_to_fieldtrip_in_my_p ublication/

      Thank you for pointing out this issue. Citation corrected.

      -  The authors could consider giving some more background on the additive vs superadditive distinction in the Introduction, which may increase the impact; as it stands the reader might not know why this is particularly interesting. Summarize some of the takeaways of the Stevenson et al. (2014) review in this respect.

      Thanks for the suggestion and we have added the following relevant information in the Introduction (lines 80-90):

      “Moreover, we adopted an additive model to classify multisensory integration based on the AV vs A+V comparison. This model assumes independence between inputs from each sensory modality and distinguishes among sub-additive (AV < A+V), additive (AV = A+V), and super-additive (AV > A+V) response modes (see a review by Stevenson et al., 2014). The additive mode represents a linear combination between two modalities. In contrast, the super-additive and subadditive modes indicate non-linear interaction processing, either with potentiated neural activation to facilitate the perception or detection of nearthreshold signals (super-additive) or a deactivation mechanism to minimize the processing of redundant information cross-modally (sub-additive) (Laurienti et al., 2005; Metzger et al., 2020; Stanford et al., 2005; Wright et al., 2003).”

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Strengths:

      The manuscript is well-written, with a concise and clear writing style. The visual presentation is largely clear. The study involves multiple experiments with different participant groups. Each experiment involves specific considered changes to the experimental paradigm that both replicate the previous experiment's finding yet extend it in a relevant manner.

      We thank the reviewer for the valuable feedback.

      Weaknesses:

      The manuscript interprets the neural findings using mechanistic and cognitive claims that are not justified by the presented analyses and results.

      First, entrainment and cortical tracking are both invoked in this manuscript, sometimes interchangeably so, but it is becoming the standard of the field to recognize their separate evidential requirements. Namely, step and gate cycles are striking perceptual or cognitive events that are expected to produce event-related potentials (ERPs). The regular presentation of these events in the paradigm will naturally evoke a series of ERPs that leave a trace in the power spectrum at stimulation rates even if no oscillations are at play. Thus, the findings should not be interpreted from an entrainment framework except if it is contextualized as speculation, or if additional analyses or experiments are carried out to support the assumption that oscillations are present. Even if oscillations are shown to be present, it is then a further question whether the oscillations are causally relevant toward the integration of biological motion and for the orchestration of cognitive processes.

      Second, if only a cortical tracking account is adopted, it is not clear why the demonstration of supra-additivity in spectral amplitude is cognitively or behaviorally relevant. Namely, the fact that frequency-specific neural responses to the [audio & visual] condition are stronger than those to [audio] and [visual] combined does not mean this has implications for behavioral performance. While the correlation to autism traits could suggest some relation to behavior and is interesting in its own right, this correlation is a highly indirect way of assessing behavioral relevance. It would be helpful to test the relevance of supra-additive cortical tracking on a behavioral task directly related to the processing of biological motion to justify the claim that inputs are being integrated with the service of behavior. Under either framework, cortical tracking or entrainment, the causal relevance of neural findings toward cognition is lacking.

      Overall, I believe this study finds neural correlates of biological motion, and it is possible that such neural correlates relate to behaviorally relevant neural mechanisms, but based on the current task and associated analyses this has not been shown.

      Thanks for raising the important concerns regarding the interpretation of our results within the entrainment or the cortical tracking frame. A strict neural entrainment account emphasizes the alignment of endogenous neural oscillations with external rhythms, rather than a mere regular repetition of stimulus-evoked responses. However, it is challenging to fully dissociate these components, given that rhythmic stimulation can shape intrinsic neural oscillations, resulting in an intricate interplay between endogenous neural oscillations and stimulus-evoked responses (Duecker et al., 2024; Herrmann et al., 2016; Hosseinian et al., 2021). Therefore, some research, including the current study, use the term “entrainment” to refer to the alignment of brain activity to rhythmic stimulation in a broader context, without isolating the intrinsic oscillations and evoked responses (e.g., Ding et al., 2016; Nozaradan et al., 2012; Obleser & Kayser, 2019). Nevertheless, we agree with the reviewer that since the current results did not examine or provide direct evidence for endogenous oscillations, it is better to contextualize the oscillation view as speculations. Hence, we have replaced most of the expressions about “entrainment” with a more general term “tracking” in the revised manuscript (as well as in the title of the manuscript). We only briefly mentioned the entrainment account in the Discussion to facilitate comparison with the literature (lines 307-312).

      Regarding the relevance between neural findings and cognition or behavioral performance, the first supporting evidence comes from the inversion effect in Experiment 2. For the neural responses at gait-cycle frequency, we observed a significantly enhanced audiovisual congruency effect in the upright condition compared with the inverted condition. Inversion disrupts the distinctive kinematic features of biological motion (e.g., gravity-compatible ballistic movements) and significantly impairs biological motion processing, but it does not change the basic visual properties of the stimuli, including the rhythmic signals generated by low-level motion cues. Therefore, the inversion effect has long been regarded as an indicator of the specificity of biological motion processing in numerous behavioral and neuroimaging studies (Bardi et al., 2014; Grossman & Blake, 2001; Shen, Lu, Yuan, et al., 2023; Simion et al., 2008; Troje & Westhoff, 2006; Vallortigara & Regolin, 2006; Wang et al., 2014; Wang & Jiang, 2012; Wang et al., 2022). Here, our finding of the cortical tracking of higher-order rhythmic structures (gait cycles) present in the upright but not in the inverted condition suggests that this cortical tracking effect can not be explained by ERPs evoked by regular onsets of rhythmic events. Rather, it is closely linked with the specialized cognitive processing of biological motion. Furthermore, we found that the BM-specific cortical tracking effect at gait-cycle frequency (rather than the non-selective tracking effect at step-cycle frequency) correlates with observers’ autistic traits, indicating its functional relevance to social cognition. These findings convergingly suggest that the cortical tracking effect that we currently observed engages cognitively relevant neural mechanisms. In addition, our recent behavioral study showed that listening to frequency-congruent footstep sounds, compared with incongruent sounds, enhanced the visual search for human walkers but not for non-biological motion stimuli containing the same rhythmic signals (Shen, Lu, Wang, et al., 2023). These results suggest that audiovisual correspondence specifically enhances the perceptual and attentional processing of biological motion. Future research could examine whether the cortical tracking of rhythmic structures plays a functional role in this process, which may shed more light on the behavioral relevance of the cortical tracking effect to biological motion perception. We have incorporated the above information into the Discussion (lines 268-293).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      In Figure 1c, it could be helpful to add the word "static" in the illustration for the auditory condition so that readers understand without reading the subtext that it is a static image without biological motion.

      Suggestion taken.

      In the Discussion, I believe it is important to justify an oscillation and entrainment account, or if it cannot be justified based on the current results and analyses (which is my opinion), it could be helpful to explicitly frame it as speculation.

      We agree with the reviewer. For more clarification, please refer to our response to the public review.

      L335, I did not understand this sentence - a reformulation would be helpful.

      The point-light stimuli were created by capturing the motion of a walking actor (Vanrie & Verfaillie, 2004). The global motion of the walking sequences was eliminated so that the point-light walker looks like walking on a treadmill without translational motion. We have reformulated the sentence as follows: “The point-light walker was presented at the center of the screen without translational motion.”

      The results in Figure 2a and 2d are derived by performing a t-test between the amplitude at the frequency of gait and step cycles and zero. Comparison against amplitude of zero is too liberal; the possibility for a Type-I error is inflated because even EEG data with only noise will not have amplitudes of zero at all frequencies. A better baseline (H0) is either the 1/frequency trend in the power spectrum derived using methods like FOOOF (https://fooof-tools.github.io/fooof/) or by performing non-parametric shuffling based methods (https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jneumeth.2007.03.024).

      In our data analysis, instead of performing the t-test between raw amplitude with zero, we compared the normalized amplitude at each frequency bin (by subtracting the average amplitude measured at the neighboring frequency bins from the original amplitude data) against zero. Such analysis is equal to contrasting the raw amplitude to its neighboring frequency bins, allowing us to test whether the neural response in each frequency bin showed a significant enhancement compared with its neighbors. The multiple comparisons on each frequency bin were controlled by false discovery rate (FDR) correction, reducing the Type-I error. Such analysis procedures help reduce (though not totally remove) the influence of the 1/f trend and have been widely used in this field (Cirelli et al., 2016; Henry & Obleser, 2012; Lenc et al., 2018; Nozaradan et al., 2012; Peter et al., 2023).

      To further verify our findings, we adopted the reviewer’s suggestion and created a baseline by performing a non-parametric shuffling-based analysis. More specifically, to establish the statistical significance of amplitude peaks, we carried out a surrogate analysis on each condition. For each participant, a single control surrogate dataset was derived from their actual dataset by jittering the onset of each step-cycle relative to the actual original onset by a randomly selected integer value ranging between − 490–490 ms. This procedure removed the consistent relationship between the EEG signal and the stimuli while preserving each epoch’s general timing within the exposure period. Then, epochs were extracted based on surrogate stimuli onset, and amplitude was computed across frequencies through FFT under a null model of non-entrainment (Moreau et al., 2022). This entire procedure was performed 100 times, producing a surrogate amplitude distribution of 100 group-averaged values for each condition. If the observed amplitude values at the frequency of interest exceeded the value corresponding to the 95th percentile of the surrogate distribution (p < .05) within a given condition (e.g., AV), the amplitude peak was considered significant (Batterink, 2020). As shown in Author response image 2, the statistical results from these analyses are similar to those reported in the manuscript, confirming the significant amplitude peaks at the frequencies of interest.

      Author response image 2.

      Non-parametric analysis for spectral peak. The dotted lines represent the random data based on shuffling analysis. The solid lines represent the observed data in measured EEG signals. All conditions induced significant peaks at step-cycle frequency and its harmonic, while only the AV condition induced a significant peak at gait-cycle frequency.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Strengths:

      The main strengths of the paper relate to the conceptualization of BM and the way it is operationalized in the experimental design and analyses. The use of entrainment, and the tracking of different, nested aspects of BM result in seemingly clean data that demonstrate the basic pattern. The first experiments essentially provide the basic utility of the methodological innovation and the second experiment further hones in on the relevant interpretation of the findings by the inclusion of better control stimuli sets.

      Another strength of the work is that it includes at a conceptual level two replications.

      We appreciate the reviewer for the comprehensive review and positive comments.

      Weaknesses:

      The statistical analysis is misleading and inadequate at times. The inclusion of the autism trait is not foreshadowed and adequately motivated and is likely underpowered. Finally, a broader discussion over other nested frequencies that might reside in the point-light walker stimuli would also be important to fully interpret the different peaks in the spectra.

      (1) Regarding the nested frequency peaks in the spectra, we did observe multiple significant amplitude peaks at 1f (1/0.83 Hz), 2f (2/1.67 Hz), and 4f (4/3.33 Hz) relative to the gait-cycle frequency (Fig. 2 a&d). To further test the functional roles of the neural activity at different frequencies, we analyzed the audiovisual integration modes at each frequency. Note that we collapsed the data from Experiments 1a & 1b in the analysis as they yielded similar results. Overall, results show a similar additive audiovisual integration mode at 2f and 4f and a super-additive integration mode only at 1f (Figure S1), suggesting that the cortical tracking effects at 2f and 4f may be functionally linked but independent of that at 1f. We have reported the detailed results in the Supplementary Information.

      (2) For the reviewer’s other concerns about statistical analysis and autism traits, please refer to our responses below to the Recommendations for the authors.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The description of the analyses performed for experiment 2 comes across as double dipping. Congruency effects for BM and non-BM motion (inverted) were compared using cluster-based statistics. Then identified clusters informed an averaging of signals which then were subjected to a paired comparison. At this point, it is no surprise that these paired comparisons are highly significant seeing that the channels were selected based on a cluster analysis of the same exact contrast. This approach should be avoided.

      In the analysis of the repeated measures ANOVA reporting a trend as marginally significant is misleading. Reporting the statistical results whilst indicating that those do not reach significance is the appropriate way to communicate this finding. Other statistics can be used in order to provide the likelihood of those findings supporting H1 or H0 if the authors would like to state something more precise (Bayesian).

      Thanks for the comments. We have addressed these two points in our response to the public review of Reviewer #1.

      The authors perform a correlation along "autistic trait" scores in an individual differences approach. Individual differences are typically investigated in larger samples (>n=40). In addition, the range of AQ scores seems limited to mostly average or lower-than-average AQs (barring a couple). These points make the conclusions on the possible role of BM in the autistic phenotype very tentative. I would recommend acknowledging this.

      An alternative analysis approach that might better suit the smaller sample size is a comparison between high and low AQ participants, defined based on a median split.

      Many thanks for the suggestion. We agree with the reviewer that the sample size (n = 24) in the current study is not large for exploring the correlation between BM and autistic traits. The narrow range of AQ scores was due to the fact that all participants were non-clinical populations and we did not pre-select participants by AQ scores. To further confirm our findings, we adopted your suggestion to compare the BM-specific cortical tracking effect (i.e., audiovisual congruency effect (Upright - Inverted)) between high and low AQ participants split by the median AQ score (20) of this sample. Similar to correlation analysis, one outlier, whose audiovisual congruency effect (Upright – Inverted) in neural responses at 1 Hz exceeds 3 SD from the group mean, was removed from the following analysis. As shown in Figure S3, at 1 Hz, participants with low AQ showed a greater cortical tracking effect compared with high AQ participants (t (21) = 2.127, p \= 0.045). At 2 Hz, low and high AQ participants showed comparable neural responses (t (22) = 0.946, p \= 0.354). These results are in line with the correlation analysis, providing further support to the functional relevance between social cognition and cortical tracking of biological motion as well as its dissociation at the two temporal scales. We have added these results to the main text (lines 238-244) and the supplementary information.

      Writing

      The narrative could be better unfolded and studies better motivated. The transition from basic science research on BM to possibly delineating a mechanistic understanding of autism was a surprise at the end of the intro. Once the authors consider the suggestions and comments above it would be good to have this detail and motivation more obviously foreshadowed in the text.

      Thanks for the great suggestion and we have provided an introduction about how audiovisual BM processing links with social cognition and ASD in the first paragraph of the revised manuscript (lines 46-56). In particular, integrating multisensory BM cues is foundational for perceiving and attending to other people and developing further social interaction. However, such ability is usually compromised in people with social deficits, such as individuals with autism spectrum disorder (ASD) (Feldman et al., 2018), and even in non-clinical populations with high autistic traits (Ujiie et al., 2015). These behavioral findings underline the close relationship between multisensory BM processing and one’s social cognitive capability, motivating us to further explore this issue at the neural level in the current study. We have also modified the relevant content in the last paragraph of the Introduction (lines 100-108), briefly mentioning the methods that we used to investigate this issue.

      The use of terminology related to neural oscillations which are entraining to the BM seems to suggest that the rhythmic tracking inevitably stems from the shaping of existing intrinsic dynamics of the brain. I am not sure this is necessarily the case. I would therefore adopt a more concrete jargon for the description of the entrainment seen in this study. If a discussion over internal dynamics shaped by external stimuli should be invoked, it should be done explicitly with appropriate references (but in my opinion, it isn't quite required).

      Please refer to our response to a similar point raised in the public review of Reviewer #2.

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript discusses the role of phosphorylated ubiquitin (pUb) by PINK1 kinase in neurodegenerative diseases. It reveals that elevated levels of pUb are observed in aged human brains and those affected by Parkinson's disease (PD), as well as in Alzheimer's disease (AD), aging, and ischemic injury. The study shows that increased pUb impairs proteasomal degradation, leading to protein aggregation and neurodegeneration. The authors also demonstrate that PINK1 knockout can mitigate protein aggregation in aging and ischemic mouse brains, as well as in cells treated with a proteasome inhibitor. While this study provided some interesting data, several important points should be addressed before being further considered.

      Strengths:

      (1) Reveals a novel pathological mechanism of neurodegeneration mediated by pUb, providing a new perspective on understanding neurodegenerative diseases.

      (2) The study covers not only a single disease model but also various neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimer's disease, aging, and ischemic injury, enhancing the breadth and applicability of the research findings.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) PINK1 has been reported as a kinase capable of phosphorylating Ubiquitin, hence the expected outcome of increased p-Ub levels upon PINK1 overexpression. Figures 5E-F do not demonstrate a significant increase in Ub levels upon overexpression of PINK1 alone, whereas the evident increase in Ub expression upon overexpression of S65A is apparent. Therefore, the notion that increased Ub phosphorylation leads to protein aggregation in mouse hippocampal neurons is not yet convincingly supported.

      Indeed, overexpression of sPINK1 alone resulted in minimal changes in Ub levels in the soluble fraction (Figure 5E), which is expected given that the soluble Ub pool remains relatively stable and buffered. However, sPINK1* overexpression led to a marked increase in Ub levels in the insoluble fraction, indicative of increased protein aggregation (Figure 5F). The molecular weight distribution of Ub in the insoluble fraction was predominantly below 70 kDa, suggesting that phosphorylation inhibits Ub chain elongation.

      To further validate this mechanism, we utilized the Ub/S65A mutant to antagonize Ub phosphorylation and observed a significant reduction in the intensity of aggregated bands at low molecular weights, indicating restored proteasomal activity. The observed increase in Ub levels in the soluble fraction upon Ub/S65A overexpression is likely due to enhanced ubiquitination driven by elevated Ub-S65A, and notably, Ub/S65A was also detectable using an antibody against wild-type Ub.

      Consistent with these findings, overexpression of Ub/S65E resulted in a further increase in Ub levels in the insoluble fraction, with intensified low molecular weight bands. The effect was even more pronounced than that observed with sPINK1 transfection, likely resulting from the complete phosphorylation mimicry achieved by Ub/S65E, compared to the relatively low levels of phosphorylation by PINK1.

      These findings collectively support the conclusion that sPINK1 promotes protein aggregation via Ub phosphorylation. We have updated the Results and Discussion sections to more clearly present the data and explain the various controls.

      (2) The specificity of PINK1 and p-Ub antibodies requires further validation, as a series of literature indicate that the expression of the PINK1 protein is relatively low and difficult to detect under physiological conditions.

      We acknowledge the challenges in achieving high specificity with commercially available and customgenerated antibodies targeting PINK1 and pUb, particularly given their low endogenous expression under physiological conditions. However, in our study, we observed robust immunofluorescent staining for PINK1 (Figures 1A, 1C, and 1G) and pUb (Figures 1B, 1D, and 1G) in human brain samples from Alzheimer's disease (AD) patients, as well as in mouse models of AD and cerebral ischemia. The clear visualization can be partly attributed to the pathological upregulation of PINK1 and pUb under disease conditions. Importantly, the images from pink1<sup>-/-</sup> mice exhibit much weaker staining.

      Additionally, we detected a significant elevation in the pUb levels in aged mouse brains compared to younger ones (Figures 1E and 1F). In contrast, pink1<sup>-/-</sup> mice showed no change in pUb levels with aging, despite some background signals, demonstrating that pUb accumulation during aging is PINK1dependent. Collectively, these results support the specificity of the antibodies used in detecting pathophysiological changes in PINK1 and pUb levels.

      For cultured cells, pink1<sup>-/-</sup> cells served as a negative control for both PINK1 (Figures 2B and 2C) and pUb (Figures 2D and 2E). While the pUb Western blot exhibited some nonspecific background, pUb levels in pink1<sup>-/-</sup> cells remained unchanged across all MG132 treatment conditions (Figures 2D and 2E), further attesting the usability of the antibodies in conjunction with appropriated controls.

      We have updated the manuscript with higher-resolution images; individual image files have been uploaded separately.

      (3) In Figure 6, relying solely on Western blot staining and Golgi staining under high magnification is insufficient to prove the impact of PINK1 overexpression on neuronal integrity and cognitive function. The authors should supplement their findings with immunostaining results for MAP2 or NeuN to demonstrate whether neuronal cells are affected.

      We included NeuN immunofluorescent staining at 10, 30, and 70 days post transfection in Figure 5— figure supplement 2. The results clearly demonstrate a significant loss of NeuN-positive cells in the hippocampus following Ub/S65E overexpression, while no apparent reduction was observed with sPINK1 transfection alone. 

      We have also quantified MAP2 protein levels via Western blotting and examined morphology of neuronal dendrite and synaptic structure using Golgi staining. These analyses revealed a significant reduction in MAP2 levels and synaptic damage upon sPINK1 or Ub/S65E overexpression (Figures 6F and 6H), consistent with the proteomics analysis (Figure 5—figure supplementary 5). Notably, these detrimental effects could be rescued by co-expression of Ub/S65A, reinforcing the role of pUb in mediating these structural changes.

      Together, our findings from NeuN immunostaining, MAP2 protein analysis, proteomics analysis, and Golgi staining provide strong evidence for the impact of PINK1 overexpression and pUb elevation on neuronal integrity and synaptic structure.

      (4) The authors should provide more detailed figure captions to facilitate the understanding of the results depicted in the figures.

      Figure captions have been updated with more details incorporated in the revised manuscript.

      (5) While the study proposes that pUb promotes neurodegeneration by affecting proteasomal function, the specific molecular mechanisms and signaling pathways remain to be elucidated.

      The molecular mechanisms and signaling pathways through which pUb promotes neurodegeneration are likely multifaceted and interconnected. Our findings suggest that mitochondrial dysfunction plays a central role following sPINK1* overexpression. This is supported by (1) an observed increase in full-length PINK1, indicative of impaired mitochondrial quality control, and (2) proteomic data showing enhanced mitophagy at 30 days post-transfection, followed by substantial mitochondrial injuries at 70 days post-transfection (Figure 5—figure supplement 5 and Supplementary Data). The progressive mitochondrial damage caused by protein aggregates would exacerbate neuronal injury and degeneration.

      Additionally, reduced proteasomal activity may lead to the accumulation of inhibitory proteins that are normally degraded by the ubiquitin-proteasome system. Our proteomics analysis identified a >50fold increase in CamK2n1 (UniProt ID: Q6QWF9), an endogenous inhibitor of CaMKII activation, following sPINK1* overexpression. The accumulation of CamK2n1 suppresses CaMKII activation, thereby inhibiting the CREB signaling pathway (Figure 7), which is essential for synaptic plasticity and neuronal survival. This disruption can further contribute to neurodegenerative processes.

      Thus, our findings underscore the complexity of pUb-mediated neurodegeneration and call for further investigation into downstream consequences.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Suggestions for improved or additional experiments, data or analyses.

      We have performed additional experiments to investigate how the impairment of ubiquitinproteasomal activity contributes to neurodegeneration. Specifically, we investigated CamK2n1, an endogenous inhibitor of CaMKII, which is normally degraded by the proteasome to allow CaMKII activation. Our proteomics analysis revealed a significant (>50-fold) elevation of CamKI2n1 following sPINK1 overexpression (Figure 5—figure supplement 5 and Supplementary Data).

      To validate this mechanism, we conducted immunofluorescence and Western blot analyses, demonstrating reduced levels of phosphorylated CaMKII (pCaMKII) and phosphorylated CREB (pCREB), as well as reduced levels of downstream proteins such as BDNF and ERK. These results have been incorporated into the revised manuscript (Figure 7).

      As the proteasome is crucial in maintaining proteostasis, its dysregulation would trigger neurodegeneration through multiple pathways, contributing to a broad cascade of pathological events.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript makes the claim that pUb is elevated in a number of degenerative conditions including Alzheimer's Disease and cerebral ischemia. Some of this is based on antibody staining which is poorly controlled and difficult to accept at this point. They confirm previous results that a cytosolic form of PINK1 accumulates following proteasome inhibition and that this can be active. Accumulation of pUb is proposed to interfere with proteostasis through inhibition of the proteasome. Much of the data relies on over-expression and there is little support for this reflecting physiological mechanisms.

      Weaknesses:

      The manuscript is poorly written. I appreciate this may be difficult in a non-native tongue, but felt that many of the problems are organizational. Less data of higher quality, better controls and incision would be preferable. Overall the referencing of past work is lamentable. Methods are also very poor and difficult to follow.

      Until technical issues are addressed I think this would represent an unreliable contribution to the field.

      (1) Antibody specificity and detection under pathological conditions

      We recognize the limitations of commercially available antibodies for detecting PINK1 and pUb. Nevertheless, our findings reveal a significant elevation in PINK1 and pUb levels under pathological conditions, such as Alzheimer's disease (AD) and ischemia. Additionally, we observed an increase in pUb level during brain aging, further demonstrating its relevance and a potentially causative role for this special pathological condition. Similarly, elevated pUb levels were observed for cultured cells following pharmacological treatment or oxygen-glucose deprivation (OGD).

      In contrast, in pink1<sup>-/-</sup> mice and HEK293 cells used as negative controls, PINK1 and pUb levels remained consistently low. Therefore, the observed elevation of PINK1 and pUb are associated with special pathological conditions, rather than an antibody-detection anomaly.

      (2) Overexpression as a model for pathological conditions

      To investigate whether the inhibitory effects of sPINK1 on the ubiquitin-proteasome system (UPS) depend on its kinase activity, we employed a kinase-dead version of sPINK1* as a negative control. Given that PINK1 targets multiple substrates, we also investigated whether its effects on UPS inhibition were specifically mediated by ubiquitin phosphorylation. To this end, we used Ub/S65A (a phospho-null mutant) to block Ub phosphorylation by sPINK1, and Ub/S65E (a phospho-mimetic mutant) to mimic phosphorylated Ub. These well-defined controls ensured the robustness of our conclusions.

      Although overexpression does not perfectly replicate physiological conditions, it provides a valuable model for studying pathological scenarios such as neurodegeneration and brain aging, where pUb levels are elevated. For example, we observed a 30.4% increase in pUb levels in aged mouse brains compared to young brains (Figure 1F). Similarly, in our sPINK1 overexpression model, pUb levels increased by 43.8% and 59.9% at 30- and 70-days post-transfection, respectively, compared to controls (Figures 5A and 5C). Notably, co-expression of sPINK1* with Ub/S65A almost entirely prevented sPINK1* accumulation (Figure 5B), indicating that an active UPS can efficiently degrade this otherwise stable variant of sPINK1.

      Together, our findings demonstrate that sPINK1 accumulation inhibits UPS activity, an effect that can be reversed by the phospho-null Ub mutant. The overexpression model mimics pathological conditions and provides valuable insights into pUb-mediated proteasomal dysfunction.

      (3) Organization of the manuscript

      Following your suggestion, we have restructured the manuscript to present the key findings in a more logical and cohesive sequence:

      (a) Evidence for elevated PINK1 and pUb levels across a broad spectrum of pathological and neurodegenerative conditions;

      (b) The effects of pUb elevation in cultured cells, focusing on the proteasome;

      (c) Mechanistic insights into how pUb elevation inhibits proteasomal activity;

      (d) The absence of PINK1 and pUb alleviates protein aggregation;

      (e) Evidence for the causative relationship between elevated pUb levels and proteasomal inhibition;

      (f) Demonstration that pUb elevation directly contributes to neuronal degeneration;

      (g) Give an additional evidence to explain the mechanism of neuronal degeneration post sPINK1* over-expression. The downstream effects of elevated CamK2n1, an inhibitor of CaMKII, resulting from proteasomal inhibition.

      This reorganization should ensure a clear and progressive narrative, and enhance the overall coherence and impact of the revised manuscript.

      (4) Revisions to writing, referencing, and methodology

      We have made a great effort to enhance the clarity and flow of the manuscript, including the addition of references to appropriately acknowledge prior work. We have also expanded the Methods section with additional details to improve readability and ensure reproducibility. We believe these revisions effectively address the concerns raised and strengthen the overall quality of the manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Figure 1: PINK1 is a poorly expressed protein and difficult to detect by Western blot let alone by immunofluorescence. I have direct experience of the antibody used in this study and do not consider it reliable. There are much cleaner reagents out there, although they still have many challenges. The minimal requirement here is for the PINK1 antibody staining to be compared in wild-type and knockout mice. One would also expect to see a mitochondrial staining which would require higher magnification to be definitive, but it does not look like it to me. This is a key foundational figure and is unreliable. The pUb antibody also has a high background, see for example figure 2E.

      Under physiological conditions, PINK1 and pUb levels are indeed low, making their detection challenging. However, under pathological conditions, their expression is significantly elevated, correlating with disease severity. Given the limitations of available reagents, using appropriate controls is a standard approach in biological research.

      Nevertheless, we observed robust immunofluorescent staining for PINK1 (Figures 1A, 1C, and 1G) and pUb (Figures 1B, 1D, and 1G) in human brain samples from Alzheimer’s disease (AD) patients and mouse models of AD and cerebral ischemia. Compared to healthy controls, the significant elevation of PINK1 and pUb under these pathological conditions accounts for their clear visualization. To validate antibody specificity, we have included images from pink1<sup>-/-</sup> mice as negative controls (Figure 1C and 1D, third panel).

      Furthermore, we analyzed pUb levels in both young and aged mice, using pink1<sup>-/-</sup> mice as controls.

      Our results revealed a significant increase in pUb levels in aged wild-type mice (Figures 1E and 1F), In contrast, pink1<sup>-/-</sup> mice exhibited relatively low pUb levels, with no notable change between young and aged groups. These findings reinforce the conclusion that pUb accumulation during aging is dependent on PINK1.Furthermore, we analyzed pUb levels in both young and aged mice, using pink1<sup>-/-</sup> mice as controls.

      For HEK293 cells, pink1<sup>-/-</sup> cells were used as a negative control for assessing PINK1 (Figures 2B and 2C) and pUb levels (Figures 2D and 2E). While the pUb Western blot did show some nonspecific background, as you have noted, pUb levels significantly increased following MG132 treatment of the wildtype cells. In contrast, no such increase was observed in pink1<sup>-/-</sup> cells (Figure 2D and 2E). These results further validate the reliability of our findings.

      Regarding mitochondrial staining, we recognize that PINK1 localization can vary depending on the pathological context. For example, in Alzheimer’s disease, PINK1 exhibits relatively high nuclear staining, while in cerebral ischemia and brain aging, it is predominantly cytoplasmic and punctate. In contrast, in young, healthy mouse brains, PINK1 is more uniformly distributed. The observed elevation in pUb levels could arise from mitochondrial PINK1 or soluble sPINK1 in the cytoplasm, and it remains unclear whether nuclear PINK1 contributes to pUb accumulation. Investigating the role of PINK1 in different forms and subcellular localizations will be an important avenue for future research.

      To enhance clarity, we have updated our images and replaced them with higher-resolution versions in the revised manuscript.

      Please also confirm that the GAPDH loading controls represent the same gels, to my eye they do not match.

      We have reviewed all the bands, and confirmed that the GAPDH loading controls correspond to the same gels. For different gels, we use separate GAPDH loading controls. There are two experimental scenarios to consider:

      (1) When there is a large difference in molecular weight between target proteins, we cut the gel into sections and incubate each section with different antibodies separately.

      (2) When the molecular weight difference is small and cutting is not feasible, we first probe the membrane with one antibody, strip it, and then re-incubate the membrane with a second antibody.

      These approaches ensure accurate and reliable detection of target proteins with various molecular weights relative to GAPDH.

      1H. Ponceau.

      We have corrected the spelling.

      Figure 2 many elements are confirmation of work already reported and this must be made clearer in the text. 

      Indeed, the elevation of sPINK1 and pUb upon proteasomal inhibition has been previously reported, and these studies have been acknowledged (Gao, et al, 2016; Dantuma, et al, 2000). In the present study, we expand on these findings by conducting a detailed analysis of the time- and concentrationdependent effects of MG132 on sPINK1 and pUb levels, establishing a causative relationship between pUb accumulation and proteasomal inhibition. Furthermore, we demonstrate that sPINK1 overexpression and MG132-induced proteasomal inhibition exhibit no additive effect, indicating that both converge on the same pathway, resulting in the impairment of proteasomal activity.

      It has been established that ubiquitin phosphorylation inhibits Ub chain elongation (Wauer, et al, 2015). However, our study provides novel insights by identifying an additional mechanism: phosphorylated Ub also interferes with the noncovalent interactions between Ub chain and Ub receptors in the proteasome, which further contributes to the impairment of UPS function.

      The PINK1 kinase-dead mutant construction (Figure 2F) and the use of Ub-GFP as a proteasomal substrate were based on established methodologies, which have been appropriately cited in the manuscript (Beilina, etal 2005 for KD sPINK1; Yamano, et al for endogenous PINK1; Samant, et al, 2018 and Dantuma, et al, 2000 for Ub-GFP probe). Similarly, our use of puromycin and BALA treatments follows previously reported protocols (Gao, et al, 2016), which allowed us to dissect the relative contributions of sPINK1* overexpression to proteasomal vs. autophagic dysfunction.

      As you have noted, our study has built upon prior findings while introducing new mechanistic insights into sPINK1 and pUb-mediated proteasomal dysfunction.

      2C 24h MG132 not recommended, most cells are dead by then.

      We used MG132 treatment for 24 hours to evaluate the time-course effects of proteasomal inhibition on PINK1 and pUb levels in HEK293 cells (Figures 2C and 2E). We did observe some decrease in both PINK1 and pUb levels at 24 hours compared to 12 hours, which may result from some extend of cell death at the longer treatment duration.

      In SH-SY5Y cells, we collected cells at 24 hours after MG132 administration (Figure 5—figure supplementary 1). Though protein aggregation was evident in these cells, we did not observe pronounced cell death under these conditions, justifying our treatment.

      Our findings are consistent with previous studies demonstrating that MG132 at 5 µM for 24 hours effectively induces proteasomal inhibition without substantial cytotoxicity. For example, studies using human esophageal squamous cancer cells have reported that this treatment condition inhibits cell proliferation while maintaining cell viability, with cell viability >70% after 24-hour treatment with 5 µM MG132 (Int J Mol Med 33: 1083-1088, 2014). 

      MG132 has been commonly used at concentrations ranging from 5 to 50 µM for durations of 1 to 24 hours, as stated at the vendor’s website (https://www.cellsignal.com/products/activatorsinhibitors/mg-132/2194).

      2I what is BALA do they mean bafilomycin. This is a v-ATPase inhibitor, not just an autophagy inhibitor.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment regarding the use of BALA in Figure 2I. To clarify, BALA refers to bafilomycin A1, a well-established v-ATPase inhibitor that blocks lysosomal acidification. While bafilomycin A1 is commonly used as an autophagy inhibitor, its primary mechanism involves inhibiting lysosomal function, which is critical for autophagosome-lysosome fusion and subsequent degradation of autophagic cargo.

      In our study, we used bafilomycin A1 in conjunction with puromycin to dissect the relative contributions of sPINK1 overexpression on proteasomal and autophagic activities. Puromycin induces protein misfolding and aggregation, causing stress on both degradation pathways. By inhibiting lysosomal function with bafilomycin A1 and blocking the protein degradation load at various stages, we can tell the relative contributions of autophagy and UPS pathways.

      We acknowledge that bafilomycin A1’s effects extend beyond autophagy, as it also inhibits v-ATPase activity. However, its inhibition of lysosomal degradation is integral to distinguishing autophagy’s contribution under the experimental conditions, and BALA treatment has been used in extensively in previous studies (Mauvezin and Neufeld, 2015). 

      We have further clarified this treatment in the revised manuscript.

      Figure 3. Legend or text needs to be more explicit about how chains have been produced. From what I can gather from methods only a single E2 has been trialed. Authors should use at least one of the criteria used by Wauer et al. (2014) to confirm the stoichiometry of phosphorylation. The concept that pUb can interfere with E2 discharging is not new, but not universal across E2s.

      We have cited in the manuscript that PINK1-mediated ubiquitin phosphorylation can interfere with ubiquitin chain elongation for certain E2 enzymes (Wauer et al., 2015). 

      To clarify, the focus of our current work is on how elevation of Ub phosphorylation impacts UPS activity, rather than exploring the broader effects of Ub phosphorylation on Ub chain elongation. For this reason, we have used the standard E2 that is well-established for generating K48-linked polyUb chain (Pickart CM, 2005). Moreover, our findings go further and by demonstrate that phosphorylated K48-linked polyubiquitin exhibits weaker non-covalent interactions with proteasomal ubiquitin receptors. This dual effect—on both covalent chain elongation and non-covalent interactions— contributes to the observed reduction in ubiquitin-proteasome activity, a novel aspect of our study.

      To address the reviewer’s concerns, we have added details in the Methods section and figure legends regarding the generation of ubiquitin chains. Specifically, we used ubiquitin-activating enzyme E1 (UniProt ID: P22314) and ubiquitin-conjugating enzyme E2-25K (UniProt ID: P61086) to generate K48-linked ubiquitin chains. 

      Our ESI-MS analysis showed that only 1–2 phosphoryl groups were incorporated into the K48-linked tetra-ubiquitin chains (Figure 3—figure supplement 2). This is consistent with our in vivo findings, where pUb levels increased by 30.4% in aged mouse brains compared to young brains (Figure 1F). Notably, even sub-stoichiometric phosphorylation onto the K48-linked ubiquitin chain significantly weakens the non-covalent interactions with the proteasome (Figures 3E and 3H).

      Figure 4. I could find no definition of the insoluble fraction, nor details on how it is prepared.

      The insoluble fraction primarily contains proteins that are aggregated or associated with hydrophobic interactions and cannot be solubilized by RIPA buffer. We have provided more details in the Methods of the revised manuscript about how the insoluble fraction was prepared. Our approach was based on established protocols for fractionating soluble and insoluble proteins from brain tissues (Wirths, 2017). Here is an outline of the procedure, which enables the separation and subsequent analysis of distinct protein populations:

      • Lysis and preparation of soluble fraction: Cells and brain tissues were lysed using RIPA buffer (Beyotime Biotechnology, cat# P0013B) containing protease (P1005) and phosphatase inhibitors (P1081) on ice for 30 minutes, with gentle vortexing every 10 minutes. Brain samples were homogenized using a precooled TissuePrep instrument (TP-24, Gering Instrument Company). Lysates were centrifuged at 12,000 rpm for 30 minutes at 4°C. The supernatant was collected as the soluble protein fraction.

      • Preparation of insoluble fraction: The pellet was resuspended in 20 µl of SDS buffer (2% SDS, 50 mM Tris-HCl, pH 7.5) and subjected to ultrasonic pyrolysis at 4°C for 8 cycles (10 seconds ultrasound, 30 seconds interval). The samples were then centrifuged at 12,000 rpm for 30 minutes at 4°C. The supernatant obtained after this step was designated as the insoluble protein fraction.

      • Protein quantification: Protein concentrations for both soluble and insoluble fractions were determined using the BCA Protein Assay Kit (Beyotime Biotechnology, cat# P0009).

      Figure 5. What is the transfection efficiency? How many folds is sPINK1 over-expressed? Typically, a neuron will have only a few hundred copies of PINK1 at the basal state. How much mutant ubiquitin is expressed relative to wild type, seeing the free ubiquitin signals on the gels might be helpful here, but they seem to have been cut off. 

      We appreciate the reviewer's insightful comments regarding transfection efficiency, the extent of sPINK1 overexpression, and the expression levels of mutant ubiquitin relative to wild-type ubiquitin. Below, we provide detailed responses to each point:

      Transfection Efficiency: Our immunofluorescent staining for NeuN, a neuronal marker, demonstrated that over 90% of NeuN-positive cells were co-localized with GFP (Figure 5—figure supplement 2), indicating a high transfection efficiency in our neuronal cultures.

      Extent of sPINK1 Overexpression: Quantifying the exact fold increase of sPINK1 upon overexpression is inherently difficult due to its low basal expression under physiological conditions, making the relative increase difficult to measure (small denominator effect). However, our Western blot analysis shows that ischemic events can cause a substantial elevation of PINK1 levels, including both full-length and cleaved forms (Figure 1H). This suggests that our overexpression model recapitulates the pathological increase in PINK1, making it a relevant system for studying disease mechanisms.

      From Figure 5B, it is evident that sPINK1 levels differ significantly between neurons overexpressing sPINK1 alone and those co-expressing sPINK1 + Ub/S65A (70 days post-transfection). Overexpression of sPINK1 alone results in multiple PINK1 bands, consistent with sPINK1, endogenous PINK1 (induced by mitochondrial damage), and ubiquitinated sPINK1. In comparison, co-expressing Ub/S65A leads to faint PINK1 bands, suggesting that in the presence of a functionally restored proteasome, overexpressed sPINK1 is rapidly degraded. Therefore, actual accumulation of sPINK1 depends on proteasomal activity, and the “over-expressed” PINK1 level can be comparable to levels observed under native, pathological conditions.

      Expression Levels of Mutant Ubiquitin Relative to Wild-Type: Assessing the expression levels of mutant versus wild-type ubiquitin is indeed valuable. In Figure 5E, we observed a 38.9% increase in high-molecular-weight ubiquitin conjugates in the soluble fraction when comparing the sPINK1+Ub/S65A group to the control. This increase suggests that mutant ubiquitin is actively incorporated into polyubiquitin chains.

      Regarding free monomeric ubiquitin, its low abundance and rapid incorporation into polyubiquitin chains make it difficult to visualize in Western blots. Additionally, its low molecular weight and lower antibody binding valency further reduce its visibility.

      General: a number of effects are shown following over-expression but no case is made that these levels of pUb are ever attained physiologically. I am very unconvinced by these findings and think the manuscript needs to be improved at multiple levels before being added to the record.

      We understand the reviewer’s concerns regarding the relevance of pUb levels observed in our overexpression model. To clarify, our study is not focused on physiological levels of pUb, but rather on pathologically elevated levels, which have been documented in various neurodegenerative conditions. While overexpression is not a perfect replication of pathological states, it provides a valuable tool to investigate mechanisms that become relevant under disease conditions. Moreover, we have taken steps to ensure the validity of our findings and to address potential limitations associated with overexpression models:

      Pathological Relevance: Besides several reported literatures, we observed significant increases in PINK1 and pUb levels in human brain samples from Alzheimer's disease (AD) patients, as well as in mouse models of AD, cerebral ischemia (including mouse middle cerebral artery occlusion ischemic model and oxygen glucose deprivation cell model), and aging (e.g., Figures 1E, 1F, and 1H). All these data show that pUb levels are elevated under pathological conditions. Our overexpression model mimics these pathological scenarios by recreating the high levels of pUb, which lead to the impairment of proteasomal activity and subsequent disruption of proteostasis.

      Use of Robust Controls: To ensure the reliability of our results and interpretations, we employed multiple controls for our experiments. We have used pink1<sup>-/-</sup> mice and cells to confirm that pUb accumulation is PINK1-dependent (Figures 1C and 2C). We have also included kinase-dead sPINK1 mutant and Ub/S65A phospho-null mutants to negate/counteract the specific roles of PINK1 activity and pUb in proteasomal dysfunction. On the other hand, we have used Ub/S65E for phosphomimetic mutant, corresponding to a 100% Ub phosphorylation.

      Importantly, we have compared sPINK1 overexpression with both baseline and disease-mimicking conditions, thus to ensure that the observed effects are consistent with pathological changes. Furthermore, our findings are supported by complementary evidences from human brain samples, model animals, cell cultures, and molecular assays. Integrating the different controls and various approaches, we have provided mechanistic insights into how elevated pUb levels causes proteasomal impairment and contributes to neurodegeneration.

      Our findings elucidate how elevated pUb level contributes to the disruption of proteostasis in neurodegenerative conditions. While overexpression may have limitations, it remains a powerful tool for dissecting pathological mechanisms and testing hypotheses. Our results align with and expand upon previous studies suggesting pUb as a biomarker of neurodegeneration (Hou, et al, 2018; Fiesel, et al, 2015), and provide mechanistic insights into how elevated pUb and sPINK1 drive a viscous feedforward cycle, ultimately leading to proteasomal dysfunction and neurodegeneration. 

      We hope these clarifications highlight the relevance and rigor of our study, and welcome additional suggestions to improve the manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study aims to explore the role of phosphorylated ubiquitin (pUb) in proteostasis and its impact on neurodegeneration. By employing a combination of molecular, cellular, and in vivo approaches, the authors demonstrate that elevated pUb levels contribute to both protective and neurotoxic effects, depending on the context. The research integrates proteasomal inhibition, mitochondrial dysfunction, and protein aggregation, providing new insights into the pathology of neurodegenerative diseases.

      Strengths:

      - The integration of proteomics, molecular biology, and animal models provides comprehensive insights.

      - The use of phospho-null and phospho-mimetic ubiquitin mutants elegantly demonstrates the dual effects of pUb.

      - Data on behavioral changes and cognitive impairments establish a clear link between cellular mechanisms and functional outcomes.

      Weaknesses:

      - While the study discusses the reciprocal relationship between proteasomal inhibition and pUb elevation, causality remains partially inferred.

      It has been well-established that protein aggregates, particularly neurodegenerative fibrils, can impair proteasomal activity (McDade, et al., 2024; Kinger, et al., 2024; Tseng, et al., 2008). Other contributing factors, including ATP depletion, reduced proteasome component expression, and covalent modifications of proteasomal subunits, can also lead to declined proteasomal function. Additionally, mitochondrial injury serves as an important source of elevated PINK1 and pUb levels. Recent studies have demonstrated that efficient mitophagy is essential to prevent pUb accumulation, whereas partial mitophagy failure results in elevated PINK1 levels (Chin, et al, 2023; Pollock, et al. 2024).

      While pathological conditions can impair proteasomal function and slow sPINK1 degradation, leading to its accumulation, our results demonstrate that overexpression of sPINK1 or PINK1 can initiate this cycle as well. Once this cycle is initiated, it becomes self-perpetuating, as sPINK1 and pUb accumulation progressively impair proteasomal function, leading to more protein aggregates and mitochondrial damages.

      Importantly, we show that co-expression of Ub/S65A effectively rescues cells from this cycle, which further illustrates the pivotal role of pUb in driving proteasomal inhibition and the causality between pUb elevation and proteasomal inhibition. At the animal level, pink1 knockout prevents protein aggregation under aging and cerebral ischemia conditions (Figures 1E and 1G). 

      Together, by controlling at protein, cell, and animal levels, our findings support this self-reinforcing and self-amplifying cycle of pUb elevation, proteasomal inhibition, protein aggregation, mitochondrial damage, and ultimately, neurodegeneration.

      - The role of alternative pathways, such as autophagy, in compensating for proteasomal dysfunction is underexplored.

      Indeed, previous studies have shown that elevated sPINK1 can enhance autophagy (Gao, et al., 2016,), potentially compensating for impaired UPS function. One mechanism involves PINK1mediated phosphorylation of p62, which enhances autophagic activity.

      In our study, we observed increased autophagic activity upon sPINK1 overexpression, as shown in Figure 2I (middle panel, without BALA). This increase in autophagy may facilitate the degradation of ubiquitinated proteins induced by puromycin, partially mitigating proteasomal dysfunction. This compensation might also explain why protein aggregation, though statistically significant, increased only slightly at 70 days post-sPINK1 transfection (Figure 5F). Additionally, we detected a mild but statistically insignificant increase in LC3II levels in the hippocampus of mouse brains at 70 days postsPINK1 transfection (Figure 5—figure supplement 6), further supporting the notion of autophagy activation.

      However, while autophagy may provide some compensation, its effect is likely limited. The UPS and autophagy serve distinct roles in protein degradation:

      • Autophagy is a bulk degradation pathway, primarily targeting damaged organelles, intracellular pathogens, and protein aggregates, often in a non-selective manner.

      • The UPS, in contrast, is highly selective, degrading short-lived regulatory proteins, misfolded proteins, and proteins tagged for degradation via ubiquitination.

      Thus, while sPINK1 overexpression enhances autophagy-mediated degradation, it simultaneously impairs UPS-mediated degradation. This suggests that autophagy partially compensates for proteasomal dysfunction but is insufficient to counterbalance the UPS's selective degradation function. We have incorporated additional discussion in the revised manuscript.

      - The immunofluorescence images in Figure 1A-D lack clarity and transparency. It is not clear whether the images represent human brain tissue, mouse brain tissue, or cultured cells. Additionally, the DAPI staining is not well-defined, making it difficult to discern cell nuclei or staging. To address these issues, lower-magnification images that clearly show the brain region should be provided, along with improved DAPI staining for better visualization. Furthermore, the Results section and Figure legends should explicitly indicate which brain region is being presented. These concerns raise questions about the reliability of the reported pUb levels in AD, which is a critical aspect of the study's findings.

      We have taken steps to address the concerns regarding clarity and transparency in Figure 1A-D. We have already addressed the source of tissues at the left of each images. For example, we have written “human brain with AD” at the left side of Figure 1A, and “mouse brains with AD” at the left side of Figure 1C.

      Briefly, the human brain samples in Figure 1 originate from the cingulate gyrus of Alzheimer’s disease (AD) patients. Our analysis revealed that PINK1 is primarily localized within cell bodies, whereas pUb is more abundant around Aβ plaques, likely in nerve terminals. For the mouse brain samples, we have now explicitly indicated in the figure legends and Results section that the images represent the neocortex of APP/PS1 mice, a mouse model relevant to AD pathology, as well as the corresponding regions in wild-type and pink1<sup>-/-</sup> mice. We have ensured that the brain regions and sources are clearly stated throughout the manuscript.

      Regarding image clarity, we have uploaded higher-resolution versions of the images in the revised manuscript to improve visualization of key features, including DAPI staining. We believe these revisions enhance the reliability and interpretability of our findings, particularly in relation to the reported pUb levels in AD. 

      - Figure 4B should also indicate which brain region is being presented.

      The images were taken for layer III-IV in the neocortex of mouse brains. We have included this information in the figure legend of the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      - Expand on the potential compensatory role of autophagy in response to proteasomal dysfunction.

      Upon proteasomal inhibition, cells may activate autophagy as an alternative pathway of degradation to help clear damaged or misfolded proteins. Autophagy is a bulk degradation process that targets long-lived proteins, damaged organelles, and aggregated proteins for lysosomal degradation. While this pathway can provide some compensation, it is distinct from the ubiquitin-proteasome system (UPS), which specializes in the selective degradation of short-lived regulatory proteins and misfolded proteins.

      In our study, we observed increased autophagic activity following sPINK1 overexpression (Figure 2J, middle panel, without BALA) and a slight, though statistically insignificant, increase in LC3II levels in the hippocampus of mouse brains at 70 days post-sPINK1 transfection (Figure 5—figure supplement 6). These findings suggest that autophagy is indeed upregulated as a compensatory response to proteasomal dysfunction, potentially facilitating the degradation of aggregated ubiquitinated proteins. Additionally, gene set enrichment analysis (GSEA) revealed similar enrichment of autophagy pathways at 30 and 70 days post-sPINK1 overexpression (Figure 5—figure supplement 5).

      However, the compensatory capacity of autophagy is likely limited. While autophagy can reduce protein aggregation, it is an inherently non-selective process and cannot fully replace the targeted functions of the UPS. Moreover, as we illustrate in Figure 7 of the revised manuscript, UPS is essential for degrading specific regulatory and inhibitory proteins and plays a critical role in cellular proteostasis, particularly in signaling regulation, cell cycle control, and stress responses.

      Together, while autophagy activation provides some degree of compensation, it cannot fully restore cellular proteostasis. The interplay between these two degradation pathways is an important area for future investigation. For the present study, our focus is on how pUb elevations impact proteasomal activity and elicits downstream effects.

      We have incorporated these additional discussions on this topic in the revised manuscript.

      - Simplify the discussion of complex mechanisms to improve accessibility for readers.

      We have revised the Discussion to present the mechanisms in a more coherent and accessible manner, ensuring clarity for a broader readership. These revisions should make the discussion more intuitive while preserving the depth of our findings.

      - Statistical analyses could benefit from clarifying how technical replicates and biological replicates were accounted for across experiments.

      We have clarified our statistical analysis in the Methods section and figure legends, explicitly detailing how many biological replicates were accounted for across experiments. These revisions should enhance transparency and clarity, ensuring that our findings are robust and reproducible.

      - The image in Figure 3D is too small to distinguish any signals. A larger and clearer image should be presented.

      We have expanded the images in Figure 3D. Additionally, we have replaced figures with version of better resolutions throughout the manuscript.

      - NeuN expression in Figure 4B differs between wildtype and pink-/- mice. Additional validation is needed to determine whether pink-/- enhances NeuN expression.

      The difference in NeuN immunofluorescence intensity between wild-type and pink1<sup>-/-</sup> mice in Figure 4B may simply result from variations in image acquisition rather than an actual difference in NeuN expression.

      Our single nuclei RNA-seq analyses of wild-type and pink1<sup>-/-</sup> mice at 3 and 18 months of age reveal no significant differences in NeuN expression at the transcript level (data provided below). This confirms that the observed variation in fluorescence intensity is unlikely to reflect an authentic upregulation of NeuN expression. Thus, factors like the concentration of antibody, image exposure and processing may contribute to differences in staining intensity.

      Author response image 1.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      This paper examines the role of MLCK (myosin light chain kinase) and MLCP (myosin light chain phosphatase) in axon regeneration. Using loss-of-function approaches based on small molecule inhibitors and siRNA knockdown, the authors explore axon regeneration in cell culture and in animal models. Their evidence shows that MLCK activity facilitates axon extension/regeneration, while MLCP prevents it.

      Major concern:

      A global inconsistency in the conclusions of the authors is evident when trying to understand the role of NMII in axon growth and to understand the present results in light of previous reports by the authors and many others on the role of NMII in axon extension. The discussion of the matter fails to acknowledge a vast literature on how NMII activity is regulated. The authors study enzymes responsible for the phosphorylation and dephosphorylation of NMII, referring to something that is strongly proven elsewhere, that phosphorylation activates NMII and dephosphorylation deactivates it. The authors mention their own previous evidence using inhibitors of NMII ATPase activity (blebbistatin, Bleb for short) and inhibitors of a kinase that phosphorylates NMII (ROCK), highlighting that Bleb increases axon growth. Since Bleb inhibits the ATPase activity of NMII, it follows that NMII is in itself an inhibitor of axon growth, and hence when NMII is inhibited, the inhibition on axon growth is relieved, and axonal growth takes place (REF1). It is known that NMII exists in an inactive folded state, and ser19 phosphorylation (by MLCK or ROCK) extends the protein, allowing NMII filament formation, ATPase activity, and force generation on actin filaments (REF2). From this, it is derived that if MLCK is inhibited, then there is no NMII phosphorylation, and hence no NMII activity, and, according to their previous work, this should promote axon growth. On the contrary, the authors show the opposite effect: in the lack of phospho-MLC, authors show axon growth inhibition.

      We thank the Reviewer for taking time to review our manuscript, and we really appreciated the comments from the reviewer. We have tried our best to revise the manuscript to address all the comments raised by the Reviewer.

      Reporting evidence challenging previous conclusions is common business in scientific endeavors, but the problem with the current manuscript is that it fails to point to and appropriately discuss this contradiction. Instead, the authors refer to the fact that MLCK and Bleb inhibit NMII in different steps of the activation process. While this is true, this explanation does not solve the contradiction. There are many options to accommodate the information, but it is not the purpose of this revision to provide them. Since the manuscript is focused solely on phosphorylation states of MLC and axon extension, the claims are simply at odds with the current literature, and this important finding, if true, is not properly discussed.

      Thank you for reviewer's very good comments. As suggested by Reviewer, we discuss more detail it in our revised manuscripts (line 357-368; line 373-374).

      What follows is a discussion of the merits and limitations of different claims of the manuscript in light of the evidence presented.

      (1) Using western blot and immunohistochemical analyses, authors first show that MLCK expression is increased in DRG sensory neurons following peripheral axotomy, concomitant to an increase in MLC phosphorylation, suggesting a causal effect (Figure 1). The authors claim that it is common that axon growth-promoting genes are upregulated. It would have been interesting at this point to study in this scenario the regulation of MLCP, which is a main subject in this work, and expect its downregulation.

      We thank the Reviewer for taking time to review our manuscript, and we really appreciated the positive comments from the Reviewer.

      (2) Using DRG cultures and sciatic nerve crush in the context of MLCK inhibition and down-regulation, authors conclude that MLCK activity is required for mammalian peripheral axon regeneration both in vitro and in vivo (Figure 2).

      The in vitro evidence is of standard methods and convincing. However, here, as well as in all other experiments using siRNAs, it is not clear what the control is about (the identity of the plasmids and sequences, if any).

      We used the pCMV–EGFP–N3 as control, and the pCMV–EGFP–N3 plasmid was from Clontech, Inc. (line 114-115).   

      Related to this, it is not helpful to show the same exact picture as a control example in Figures 2 and 3 (panels J and E, respectively). Either because they should not have received the same control treatment, or simply because it raises concern that there are no other control examples worth showing. In these images, it is not also clear where and how the crush site is determined in the GFP channel. This is of major importance since the axonal length is measured from the presumed crush site. Apart from providing further details in the text, the authors should include convincing images.

      Thank you so much for your comments. We changed the control example in Figure 3J. For sciatic nerve regeneration experiments, the sciatic nerve was exposed at the sciatic notch by a small incision 2 days after the in vivo electroporation. The nerve was then crushed, and the crush site was marked with a 11-0 nylon epineural suture. After surgeries, the wound was closed, and the mice were allowed to recover. Three days after the sciatic nerve crush, the whole sciatic nerves from the perfused animals were dissected out and postfixed overnight in 4% PFA at 4°C. Before whole-mount flattening, it was confirmed that the place of epineural suture matched the injury site, and experiments were included in the analysis only when the crush site was clearly identifiable. Using whole mounted tissue, all identifiable EGFP-labeled axons in the sciatic nerve were manually traced from the crush site to the distal growth cone to measure the length of axon regeneration. (line 159-164).

      (3) The authors then examined the role of the phosphatase MLCP in axon growth during regeneration. The authors first use a known MLCP blocker, phorbol 12,13-dibutyrate (PDBu), to show that is able to increase the levels of p-MLC, with a concomitant increase in the extent of axon regrowth of DRG neurons, both in permissive as well as non-permissive. The authors repeat the experiments using the knockdown of MYPT1, a key component of the MLC-phosphatase, and again can observe a growth-promoting effect (Figure 3).

      The authors further show evidence for the growth-enhancing effect in vivo, in nerve crush experiments. The evidence in vivo deserves more evidence and experimental details (see comment 2). Some key weaknesses of the data were mentioned previously (unclear RNAi controls and duplication of shown images), but in this case, it is also not clear if there is a change only in the extent of growth, or also in the number of axons that are able to regenerate.

      Thank you so much for your comments. We used same control as in vitro experiments (the pCMV– EGFP–N3 plasmid was from Clontech, Inc), and we also changed the control image in Figure 3J. For in vivo axon regeneration experiments, we measured the lengths of all identifiable EGFP-labelled axons in the sciatic nerve from the crush site to the distal axonal ends. The number of EGFP labeled regenerating axons were actually determined by the electroporation rate of EGFP, which is similar, but not identical, in different mice. Thus, our data only can show the differences in axon lengths among different experimental conditions. Such approach has been used in many of our previously published papers (e.g. Saijilafu et al. Nature Communications, 2011, Saijilafu et al. Nature Communications, 2013). (line 152-153).

      (4) In the next set of experiments (presented in Figure 4) authors extend the previous observations in primary cultures from the CNS. For that, they use cortical and hippocampal cultures, and pharmacological and genetic loss-of-function using the above-mentioned strategies. The expected results were obtained in both CNS neurons: inhibition or knockdown of the kinase decreases axon growth, whereas inhibition or knockdown of the phosphatase increases growth. A main weakness in this set is that it is not indicated when (at what day in vitro, DIV) the treatments are performed. This is important to correctly interpret the results, since in the first days in vitro these neurons follow well-characterized stages of development, with characteristic cellular events with relevance to what is being evaluated. Importantly, this would be of value to understand whether the treatments affect axonal specification and/or axonal extension. Although these events are correlated, they imply a different set of molecular events.

      The treatments were started from the initial of cell culture period, and this procedure may affect axon specification as the Reviewer point out. However, we mainly focused on axon length in our experiments, thus, for quantification of axon length, neurons with processes longer than twice the diameter of cell bodies were photographed, and the longest axon of each neuron was measured. We revised the manuscript as suggested by the reviewer (line 143-145).

      The title of this section is misleading: line 241 "MLCK/MLCP activity regulated axon growth in the embryonic CNS"... the title (and the conclusion) implies that the experiments were performed in situ, looking at axons in the developing brain. The most accurate title and conclusion should mention that the evidence was collected in CNS primary cultures derived from embryos.

      We have revised the manuscript as suggested by the reviewer (line 251).

      (5) Performing nerve crush injury in CNS nerves (optic nerve and spinal cord), and the local application of PBDu, the author shows contrasting results (Figure 5). In the ON nerve, they can see axons extending beyond the lesion site due to PBDu. On the contrary, the authors fail to observe so in the corticospinal tract present in the spinal cord. The authors fail to discuss this matter in detail. Also, they accommodate the interpretation of the evidence in light of a process known as axon retraction, and its prevention by MLCP inhibition. Since the whole paper is on axon extension, and it is known that mechanistically axon retraction is not merely the opposite of axon extension, the claim needs far more evidence.

      Thank you so much for your comments. Compared to optic nerve axons, corticospinal tract axons exhibit a reduced intrinsic axon growth capability. Consequently, we observed that PBDu stimulates optic nerve axon regeneration. However, unfortunately, we did not detect any enhancement in corticospinal tract axons beyond the injury site in SCI following the inhibition of myosin light chain phosphatase (MLCP) with PBDu.

      In panel 5F and the supplementary data, the authors mention the occurrence of retraction bulbs, but the images are too small to support the claim, and it is not clear how these numbers were normalized to the number of axons labeled in each condition.

      Thank you so much for your comments. In this study, we used a similar method from Ertürk et al. (2007) to quantify the retraction bulb. Both maximum width of the enlarged distal tip of the axon and the width of its immediately adjacent axon shaft was measured. Then, the ratio of these two widths was then calculated. An axonal tip was considered as a retraction bulb if its tip/shaft ratio exceeded 4. Averages number of retraction bulb were calculated from 3 sections in every mice for each group (n=5). (line 187-191).

      [Ref] Ertürk A, Hellal F, Enes J, and Bradke F (2007). Disorganized microtubules underlie the formation of retraction bulbs and the failure of axonal regeneration. J. Neurosci 27, 9169–9180. [PubMed:17715353].

      (6) The author combines MLCK and MLCP inhibitors with Bleb, trying to verify if both pairs of inhibitors act on the same target/pathway (Figure 6). The rationale is wrong for at least two reasons.<br /> a- Because both lines of evidence point to contrasting actions of NMII on axon growth, one approach could never "rescue" the other.

      If MLCK regulates axon growth through the activation of Myosin, the inhibitory effect of ML-7 (an MLCK inhibitor) on axon growth might be influenced by Bleb, a NMII inhibitor. However, our findings reveal that the combination of Bleb and ML-7 does not alter the rate of axon outgrowth compared to ML-7 alone. This suggests that the roles of ML-7 and Bleb in axon growth are independent. It means MLCK may regulates axon growth independent of NMII activity.

      b. Because the approaches target different steps on NMII activation, one could never "prevent" or rescue the other. For example, for Bleb to provide a phenotype, it should find any p-MLC, because it is only that form of MLC that is capable of inhibiting its ATPase site. In light of this, it is not surprising that Bleb is unable to exert any action in a situation where there is no p-MLC (ML-7, which by inhibiting the kinase drives the levels of p-MLC to zero, Figure 4A). Hence, the results are not possible to validate in the current general interpretation of the authors. (See 'major concern').

      The reported mechanism of blebbistatin is not through competition with the ATP binding site of myosin. Instead, it selectively binds to the ATPase intermediate state associated with ADP and inorganic phosphate, which decelerates the phosphate release. Importantly, blebbistatin does not impede myosin's interaction with actin or the ATP-triggered disassociation of actomyosin. It rather inhibits the myosin head when it forms a product complex with a reduced affinity for actin. This indicates that blebbistatin functions by stabilizing a particular myosin intermediate state that is independent of the phosphorylation status of myosin light chain (MLC).

      [Ref] Kovács M, Tóth J et al. Mechanism of blebbistatin inhibition of myosin II. J Biol Chem. 2004 Aug 20;279(34):35557-63. doi: 10.1074/jbc.M405319200.

      (7) In Figure 7, the authors argue that the scheme of replating and using ML7 before or after replating is evidence for a local cytoskeletal action of the drug. However, an alternative simpler explanation is that the drug acts acutely on its target, and that, as such, does not "survive" the replating procedure. Hence, the conclusion raised by the evidence shown is not supported.

      In our study, we meticulously assessed the neuronal survival rates across various experimental groups. The findings indicate no significant variation in survival rates among the groups. This suggests that the drug treatment exerts no discernible influence on cell viability but primarily modulates axonal elongation."

      Author response image 1.

      (8) In Figure 8, the authors show that the inhibitory treatments on MLCK and MLCP (ML7 and PRBu) alter the morphology of growth cones. However, it is not clear how this is correlated with axon growth. The authors also mention in various parts of the text that a local change in the growth cone is evidence for a local action/activity of the drug or enzyme. However, the local change<->local action is not a logical truth. It can well be that MLCK and MLCP activity trigger molecular events that ultimately have an effect elsewhere, and by looking at "elsewhere" one observes of course a local effect but is not because the direct action of MLCK or MLCP are localized. To prove true localized effects there are numerous efforts that can be made, starting from live imaging, fluorescent sensors, and compartmentalized cultures, just to mention a few.

      About the relationship between growth cone size and its growth rate, the previous published literatures found that a fast-growing axon tended to have small growth cones (Mason C. et al. 1997). A recent study on Aplysia further supports this by noting that growth cones enlarge significantly when axonal elongation halts (Miller and Suter, 2018). Consistent with these findings, our data indicate that inhibiting MLCP with PDBu treatment leads to a reduction in growth cone size, which in turn promotes axon regeneration.

      [Ref] Mason CA, Wang LC. Growth cone form is behavior-specific and, consequently, position-specific along the retinal axon pathway. J Neurosci. 1997; 13:1086–1100. [PubMed: 8994063]

      [Ref] Miller KE, Suter DM. An Integrated Cytoskeletal Model of Neurite Outgrowth. Front Cell Neurosci. 2018 Nov 26;12:447. doi: 10.3389/fncel.2018.00447. eCollection 2018.

      References:

      (1) Eun-Mi Hur 1, In Hong Yang, Deok-Ho Kim, Justin Byun, Saijilafu, Wen-Lin Xu, Philip R Nicovich, Raymond Cheong, Andre Levchenko, Nitish Thakor, Feng-Quan Zhou. 2011. Engineering neuronal growth cones to promote axon regeneration over inhibitory molecules. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2011 Mar 22;108(12):5057-62. doi: 10.1073/pnas.1011258108.

      (2) Garrido-Casado M, Asensio-Juárez G, Talayero VC, Vicente-Manzanares M. 2024. Engines of change: Nonmuscle myosin II in mechanobiology. Curr Opin Cell Biol. 2024 Apr;87:102344. doi: 10.1016/j.ceb.2024.102344.

      (3) Karen A Newell-Litwa 1, Rick Horwitz 2, Marcelo L Lamers. 2015. Non-muscle myosin II in disease: mechanisms and therapeutic opportunities. Dis Model Mech. 2015 Dec;8(12):1495-515. doi: 10.1242/dmm.022103.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Saijilafu et al. demonstrate that MLCK/MLCP proteins promote axonal regeneration in both the central nervous system (CNS) and peripheral nervous system (PNS) using primary cultures of adult DRG neurons, hippocampal and cortical neurons, as well as in vivo experiments involving sciatic nerve injury, spinal cord injury, and optic nerve crush. The authors show that axon regrowth is possible across different contexts through genetic and pharmacological manipulation of these proteins. Additionally, they propose that MLCK/MLCP may regulate F-actin reorganization in the growth cone, which is significant as it suggests a novel strategy for promoting axonal regeneration.

      Strengths:

      This manuscript presents a comprehensive array of experimental models, addressing the biological question in a broad manner. Particularly noteworthy is the use of multiple in vivo models, which significantly strengthens the overall validity of the study.

      We thank the Reviewer for taking time to review our manuscript, and we really appreciated the positive comments from the Reviewer.

      Weaknesses:

      The following aspects apply:

      (1) The manuscript initially references prior research by the authors suggesting that NMII inhibition enhances axonal growth and that MLCK activates NMII. However, the study introduces a contradiction by demonstrating that MLCK inhibition (via ML-7 or siMLCK) inhibits axonal growth. This inconsistency is not adequately addressed or discussed in the manuscript.

      Thank you for reviewer's very good comments. As suggested by Reviewer, we discuss more detail it in our revised manuscripts (line 357-368; line373-374).

      (2) While the study proposes that MLCK/MLCP regulates F-actin redistribution in the growth cone, the mechanism is not explored in depth. The only figure showing how pharmacological manipulation affects the growth cone suggests that not only F-actin but also the microtubule cytoskeleton might be affected, indicating that the mechanism may not be specific. A deeper exploration of this relationship in DRG neurons, in addition to cortical neurons, as shown in the study, would be beneficial.

      Thank you for your insightful suggestion. However, our study primarily focuses on actin and myosin dynamics in the context of axonal elongation, as indicated by our direct observations in growing dorsal root ganglia (DRGs). Athamneh et al. (2017) elegantly demonstrated that the bulk movement of microtubules (MTs), rather than their assembly, predominantly drives MT advance during axonal elongation. Consequently, our manuscript concentrates on the actomyosin system, which is central to our findings. While the role of MTs in axonal growth is indeed significant and fascinating, the data we present is predominantly concerned with the actomyosin mechanism.

      [Ref] Athamneh, A. I. M. et al. Neurite elongation is highly correlated with bulk forward translocation of microtubules. Scientific Reports 7, (2017).

      (3) In the sciatic nerve injury experiments, it would be crucial to include additional controls that clearly demonstrate that siMYPT1 treatment increases MLCP in the L4-L5 ganglia. Additionally, although the manuscript mentions quantifying axons expressing EGFP, the Materials and Methods section only discusses siMYPT1 electroporation, which could lead to confusion.

      Thank you for your suggestion. However, due to the unavailability of a suitable commercial MLCP antibody, we were unable to directly detect MLCP expression. Instead, we assessed the phosphorylation level of myosin light chain (MLC) as a proxy to indicate that siMYPT1 transfection effectively downregulates MLCP activity in L4/5 dorsal root ganglia (DRG). This approach was taken to ensure the integrity of our findings despite the limitations in antibody availability.

      About the electroporation method section, we have now included detailed information about the control plasmid used in our experiments to ensure a clear understanding of our experimental setup and to validate our results. A 1 μl solution containing indicated siRNAs together with the plasmid encoding EGFP (pCMV–EGFP–N3) was then microinjected into the L4–L5 DRG….. (line 152-153).

      (4) In some panels, it is difficult to differentiate the somas from the background (Figures 3, 4, 7). In conditions where images with shorter axonal lengths are represented, it is unclear whether this is due to fewer cells or reduced axonal growth (Figures 2, 4, 6).

      In the original submission, there was some loss of image quality while converting the TIFF to PDF. We improved the quality of images in our revised manuscripts.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      There are a number of typos and language errors that should be thoroughly revised. For example, line 219: "It is well known that the opposite role of MLCK and MLCP to regulate the MLC phosphorylation status". The term "opposite role" is vague. Using "opposite roles" and specifying that they are in regulating MLC phosphorylation status clarifies the relationship between MLCK and MLCP. Also, the original phrase "to regulate" was not correctly integrated into the sentence. Rephrasing it to "in regulating" makes the role of MLCK and MLCP clearer.

      We have revised the manuscript as suggested by the reviewer (line 229).

      In the same line, there is a high number of panels that are not referred to in the text or references for panels that have another letter. Just to mention a few:

      - line 199: "(Figure 1F, G)", → BUT figure 1 contains no G panel.

      We have revised the manuscript as suggested by the reviewer (line 209).

      - line 203: "The results showed that ML-7 administration led to a significant reduction in MLC phosphorylation levels (Figure 2A, B) and impaired axonal growth in sensory neurons (Figure 2C, D). → BUT panel C is related to A and B, and only D and E show impaired axonal growth.

      We have revised the manuscript as suggested by the reviewer (line 214; line 215; line 217; line 219 ).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Improving the quality of the images would significantly strengthen the results presented.

      In the original submission, there was some loss of image quality while converting the TIFF to PDF. We improved the quality of images in our revised manuscripts.

      (2) The representative images of controls do not always show the same number of cells or axonal growth (e.g., Figure 4).

      We have changed some images as suggested by the reviewer.

      (3) The text has citation errors when referring to the figure labels.

      Upon thorough review, we have carefully examined our manuscript and have made the necessary corrections to address the identified errors. We appreciate the opportunity to enhance the quality of our work and believe that these revisions have significantly improved the clarity of our manuscript.

      (4) What happens to MLCK levels when MLCP activity is inhibited in the optic nerve?

      Upon analyzing our experimental data, we observed no significant alterations in the protein levels of MLCK when the activity of MLCP was inhibited. This finding suggests that the regulatory mechanisms governing MLCK expression may not be directly influenced by short-term MLCP inhibition. It is plausible that the duration of the inhibition period was insufficient to elicit a detectable change in MLCK expression levels.

      (5) The text in line 266: "In contrast, local PBS administration at the injury site or intravitreal PDBu injection induced little axon regeneration beyond the injury site (Figure 5 A-C)." However, this is not reflected in the figure.

      In our revised manuscript, we have provided a more precise description of our findings: In contrast, local PBS administration at the injury site or intravitreal PDBu injection did not significantly enhance axon regeneration beyond the injury site (Figure 5 A-C). This observation suggests that the only treatment employed in the injury site (the inhibition of MLCP activity within the growth cone) effective promote axonal growth. (line 276-279).

      (6) Line 287: The phrase "Consistent with our previous study" requires a citation to support it.

      We added the reference paper; Consistent with our previous study 1, the inhibition of myosin II activity with 25 μM blebbistatin markedly promoted axonal growth (Figure 6A, B). (line 298)

      (7) Line 333: The paper cited by Yu P et al. (2012) does not mention MLCK or p-MLC, so it appears to be misquoted.

      Thank you for comments. We rechecked this cited paper and confirmed that the author provided the western data C in the supplementary figure 1, it showed that Bleb did not alter the phosphorylation status of MLC.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Dong et al here have studied the impact of the small Ras-like GTPase Rab10 on the exocytosis of dense core vesicles (DVC), which are important mediators of neuropeptide signaling in the brain. They use optical imaging to show that lentiviral depletion of Rab10 in mouse hippocampal neurons in culture independent of the established defects in neurite outgrowth hamper DCV exocytosis. They further demonstrate that such defects are paralleled by changes in ER morphology and defective ER-based calcium buffering as well as reduced ribosomal protein expression in Rab10-depleted neurons. Re-expression of Rab10 or supplementation of exogenous L-leucine to restore defective neuronal protein synthesis rescues impaired DCV secretion. Based on these results they propose that Rab10 regulates DCV release by maintaining ER calcium homeostasis and neuronal protein synthesis.

      Strengths:

      This work provides interesting and potentially important new insights into the connection between ER function and the regulated secretion of neuropeptides via DCVs. The authors combine advanced optical imaging with light and electron microscopy, biochemistry, and proteomics approaches to thoroughly assess the effects of Rab10 knockdown at the cellular level in primary neurons. The proteomic dataset provided may be valuable in facilitating future studies regarding Rab10 function. This work will thus be of interest to neuroscientists and cell biologists.

      We appreciate the positive evaluation of our manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      While the main conclusions of this study are comparably well supported by the data, I see three major weaknesses:

      (1) For some of the data the statistical basis for analysis remains unclear. I.e. is the statistical assessment based on N= number of experiments or n = number of synapses, images, fields of view etc.? As the latter cannot be considered independent biological replicates, they should not form the basis of statistical testing.

      This is an important point and we agree that multiple samples from the same biological replicate are not independent observations. We reanalyzed all nested data using a linear mixed model and indicated this in the Methods section and the relevant figure legends (Brunner et al., 2022). In brief, biological replicates (individual neuronal cultures) were used as a linear predictor. Outliers were identified and excluded using the ROUT method in GraphPad. A fixed linear regression model was then fitted to the data using the lm() function in R. A one-way anova (analysis of variance) was used to assess whether including the experimental group as a second linear predictor (formula = y ~ Group + Culture) statistically improved the fit of a model without group information (formula = y ~ 1 + Culture). Post-hoc analysis was performed using the emmeans() function with Tukey’s adjustment when more than two experimental groups were present. Importantly, our conclusions remain unchanged.

      (2) As it stands the paper reports on three partially independent phenotypic observations, the causal interrelationship of which remains unclear. Based on prior studies (e.g. Mercan et al 2013 Mol Cell Biol; Graves et al JBC 1997) it is conceivable that defective ER-based calcium signaling and the observed reduction in protein synthesis are causally related. For example, ER calcium release is known to promote pS6K1 phosphorylation, a major upstream regulator of protein synthesis and ribosome biogenesis. Conversely, L-leucine supplementation is known to trigger calcium release from ER stores via IP3Rs. Given the reported impact of Rab10 on axonal transport of autophagosomes and, possibly, lysosomes via JIP3/4 or other mediators (see e.g. Cason and Holzbaur JCB 2023) and the fact that mTORC1, the alleged target of leucine supplementation, is located on lysosomes, which in turn form membrane contacts with the ER, it seems worth analyzing whether the various phenotypes observed are linked at the level of mTORC1 signaling.

      This is great suggestion that could indeed further clarify the potential interplay between ER-based Ca2+ signaling and protein synthesis. To address this, we assessed the phosphorylation level of pS6K1 in control and Rab10 knockdown (KD) neurons with or without leucine treatment. These data are included in the new Figure 8—figure supplement 1 in the revised manuscript. Our results indicate that pS6K1 phosphorylation was not upregulated in Rab10 KD neurons, suggesting that the level of mTORC1 signaling is not different between wild-type or KD neurons. Furthermore, leucine treatment increased the pS6K1 phosphorylation level, as expected, but this effect was similar in both groups. Hence, we conclude that differences in mTORC1 signaling induced by Rab10 loss is not a major factor in the observed impairment in protein synthesis.

      Author response image 1.

      Rab10 depletion does not upregulate mTORC1 pathway. (A)Typical immunoblot showing pS6K1 levels in each condition. (B) Quantification of relative pS6K1 levels in each condition. All Data are plotted as mean±s.e.m. (C) Control, Control + Leu: N = 2, n = 2, Rab10 KD, Rab10 KD + Leu: N = 2, n = 4.

      (3) The claimed lack of effect of Rab10 depletion on SV exocytosis is solely based on very strong train stimulation with 200 Aps, a condition not very well suited to analyze defects in SV fusion. The conclusion that Rab10 loss does not impact SV fusion thus seems premature.

      We agree that 200 APs stimulation might be too strong to detect specific effects on evoked synaptic vesicle release, although this stimulation pattern is an established pattern in hundreds of studies (Emperador-Melero et al., 2018; Granseth et al., 2006; Ivanova et al., 2021; Kwon and Chapman, 2011; Reshetniak et al., 2020). We have toned down our conclusions and clarified in the revised manuscript that Rab10 is dispensable for SV exocytosis evoked by intense stimulations. The corresponding statements in the text have been modified accordingly (p. 5, l. 98, 124) and in figure legend (p. 17, 490).

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:<br /> In this paper, the authors assess the function of Rab10 in dense core vesicle (DCV) exocytosis using RNAi and cultured neurons. The author provides evidence that their knockdown (KD) is effective and provides evidence that DCV is compromised. They also perform proteomic analysis to identify potential pathways that are affected upon KD of Rab10 that may be involved in DCV release. Upon focusing on ER morphology and protein synthesis, the authors conclude that defects in protein synthesis and ER Ca2+ homeostasis contributes to the DVC release defect upon Rab10 KD. The authors claim that Rab10 is not involved in synaptic vesicle (SV) release and membrane homeostasis in mature neurons.

      Strengths:

      The data related to Rab10's role in DCV release seems to be strong and carried out with rigor. While the paper lacks in vivo evidence that this gene is indeed involved in DCV in a living mammalian organism, I feel the cellular studies have value. The identification of ER defect in Rab10 manipulation is not truly novel but it is a good conformation of studies performed in other systems. The finding that DCV release defect and protein synthesis defect seen upon Rab10 KD can be significantly suppressed by Leucine supplementation is also a strength of this work.

      We appreciate the positive evaluation of our manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      The data showing Rab10 is NOT involved in SV exocytosis seems a bit weak to me. Since the proteomic analysis revealed so many proteins that are involved in SV exo/encodytosis to be affected upon Rab10, it is a bit strange that they didn't see an obvious defect. Perhaps this could have been because of the protocol that the authors used to trigger SV release (I am not an E-phys expert but perhaps this could have been a 'sledge-hammer' manipulation that may mask any subtle defects)? Perhaps the authors can claim that DCV is more sensitive to Rab10 KD than SV, but I am not sure whether the authors should make a strong claim about Rab10 not being important for SV exocytosis.

      We agree that 200 APs stimulation might be too strong to see specific effects on evoked synaptic vesicle release, although this stimulation pattern is an established pattern in hundreds of studies. We have toned down our conclusions and clarified in the revised manuscript that Rab10 is dispensable for SV exocytosis evoked by intense stimulations. The corresponding statements in the text have been modified accordingly (p. 5, l. 98, 124) and in figure legend (p. 17, 490).

      Also, the authors mention "Rab10 does not regulate membrane homeostasis in mature neurons" but I feel this is an overstatement. Since the authors only performed KD experiments, not knock-out (KO) experiments, I believe they should not make any conclusion about it not being required, especially since there is some level of Rab10 present in their cells. If they want to make these claims, I believe the authors will need to perform conditional KO experiments, which are not performed in this study.

      This is a valid point. We have changed the statement to “membrane homeostasis in mature neurons was unaffected by Rab10 knockdown” (p. 13, l.376-377).

      Finally, the authors show that protein synthesis and ER Ca2+ defects seem to contribute to the defect but they do not discuss the relationship between the two defects. If the authors treat the Rab10 KD cells with both ionomycin and Leucine, do they get a full rescue? Or is one defect upstream of the other (e.g. can they see rescue of ER morphology upon Leucine treatment)? While this is not critical for the conclusions of the paper, several additional experiments could be performed to clarify their model, especially considering there is no clear model that explains how Rab10, protein synthesis, ER homeostasis, and Ca2+ are related to DCV (but not SV) exocytosis.

      This is an important point and a great suggestion. We have now tested the rescue effects of leucine treatment on ER morphology, as suggested. These data are included in the new Figure 8—figure supplement 2 in the revised manuscript. Our results indicate that the same dose of leucine that rescues DCV fusion and protein translation failed to rescue ER morphology. Hence, the defects in ER morphology appear to be independent of the impaired protein translation.

      Author response image 2.

      Leucine supplementation does not rescue ER morphological deficiency in Rab10 KD neurons. (A) Typical examples showing the KDEL signals in each condition. (B) Quantification of RTN4 intensity in MAP2-positive dendrites. (C) The ratio of neuritic to somatic RTN4 intensity (N/S). All Data are plotted as mean±s.e.m. (B, C) Control: N = 3, n = 10; Rab10 KD: N = 3, n = 11; Rab10 KD + Leu: N = 3; n = 11. A one-way ANOVA tested the significance of adding experimental group as a predictor. **** = p<0.0001, ns = not significant.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      In the submitted manuscript, Dong and colleagues set out to dissect the role of the Rab10 small GTPase on the intracellular trafficking and exocytosis of dense core vesicles (DCVs). While the authors have already shown that Rab3 plays a central role in the exocytosis of DVC in mammalian neurons, the roles of several other Rab-members have been identified genetically, but their precise mechanism of action in mammalian neurons remains unclear. In this study, the authors use a carefully designed and thoroughly executed series of experiments, including live-cell imaging, functional calcium-imaging, proteomics, and electron microscopy, to identify that DCV secretion upon Rab10 depletion in adult neurons is primarily a result of dysregulated protein synthesis and, to a lesser extent, disrupted intracellular calcium buffering. Given that the full deletion of Rab10 has a deleterious effect on neurons and that Rab10 has a major role in axonal development, the authors cautiously employed the knock-down strategy from 7 DIV, to focus on the functional impact of Rab10 in mature neurons. The experiments in this study were meticulously conducted, incorporating essential controls and thoughtful considerations, ensuring rigorous and comprehensive results.

      We are grateful for the positive evaluation of our manuscript.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The work by Dong et al provides interesting and potentially important new insights into the connection between ER function and the regulated secretion of neuropeptides via DCVs. I suggest that the authors address the following points experimentally to increase the impact of this potentially important study.

      Major points:

      (1) As alluded to above, for some of the data the statistical basis for analysis remains unclear (examples are Figures 1C-F, J,K; Figure 2 1B-D,I-K; Figure 2 - Supplement 1D-F; Figure 2 - Supplement 2J,K, etc). I.e. is the statistical assessment based on N = number of experiments or n = number of synapses, images, fields of view etc.? As the latter cannot be considered independent biological replicates, they should not form the basis of statistical testing. The Ms misses also misses a dedicated paragraph on statistics in the methods section.

      See reply to reviewer 1 above. We fully agree and solved this point.

      (2) A main weakness of the paper is the missing connection between neuronal protein synthesis, and the observed structural and signaling defects at the level of the ER. I suggest that the authors analyze mTORC1 signaling in Rab10 depleted neurons and under rescue conditions (+Leu or re-expression of Rab10) as ribosome biogenesis is a major downstream target of mTORC1 and mTORC1 activity is related to lysosome position, which may be affected upon rab10 loss -either directly or via effects on the ER that forms tight contacts with lysosomes.

      See reply to reviewer 1 above. We agreed and followed up experimentally.

      (3) Related to the above: Does overexpression of SERCA2 restore normal DCV exocytosis in Rab10-depleted neurons? This would help to distinguish whether calcium storage and release at the level of the ER indeed contribute to the exocytosis defect.

      This is an important point and a great suggestion. We have now tested the rescue effects of overexpression of SERCA2 on DCV fusion. These data are included in the new Figure 8—figure supplement 3 in the revised manuscript. SERCA2 OE failed to rescue the DCV fusion defects in Rab10 KD neurons.

      Author response image 3.

      Overexpression of SERCA2 does not rescue DCV fusion deficits in Rab10 KD neurons. (A) Typical examples showing the SERCA2 signals in each condition. (B) Cumulative plot of DCV fusion events per cell. (C) Summary graph of DCV fusion events per cell. (A) Total number of DCVs (total pool) per neuron, measured as the number of NPY-pHluorin puncta upon NH4Cl perfusion. (B) Fraction of NPY-pHluorin-labeled DCVs fusing during stimulation. All Data are plotted as mean±s.e.m. (C-E) Control: N = 2, n = 10; Rab10 KD: N = 2, n = 13; SERCA2 OE: N = 2; n = 15. A one-way ANOVA tested the significance of adding experimental group as a predictor. *** = p<0.001, ** = p<0.01, ns = not significant.

      (4) The claimed lack of effect of Rab10 depletion on SV exocytosis is solely based on very strong train stimulation with 200 Aps, a condition not very well suited to analyze defects in SV fusion. The conclusion that Rab10 loss does not impact SV fusion thus seems premature. The authors should conduct additional experiments under conditions of single or few Aps (e.g. 4 or 10 Aps) to really assess whether or not Rab10 depletion alters SV exocytosis at the level of pHluorin analysis in cultured neurons.

      See reply to reviewer 2 above. Agreed to and made textual adjustments to solve this

      (5) Related to the above: I am puzzled by the data shown in Figure 1H-J: From the pHluorin traces shown I would estimate a tau value of about 20-30 s (e.g. decay to 1/e = 37% of the peak value). The bar graph in Figure 1K claims 3-4 s, clearly clashing with the data shown. Were these experiments conducted at RT (where expected tau values are in the range of 30s) or at 37{degree sign}C (one would expect taus of around 10 s in this case for Syp-pH)? I ask the authors to carefully check and possibly re-analyze their datasets.

      This is indeed a mistake. We thank the reviewer for flagging this miscalculation. Our original Matlab script used for calculating the tau value contained an error and the datasets were normalized twice by mistake. We now reanalyzed the data and the corresponding figures and texts have been updated. Our conclusion that Rab10 KD does not affect SV endocytosis remains unchanged since the difference in tau between the control (28.5 s) and Rab10 KD (32.8 s) suffered from the same systematic error and were/are not significantly different.

      (6) How many times was the proteomics experiment shown in Figure 3 conducted? I noticed that the data in panel H missed statistical analysis and error bars. Given the typical variation in these experiments, I suggest to only include data for proteins identified in at least 3 out of 4 experimental replicates.

      We agree that this information has not been clear. We have now explained replication in the Methods section (p. 42, l. 879-885). In brief, the proteomics experiment presented in Fig 3 was conducted with two independent cultures (‘biological replicates’), hence, formally only two independent observations. For each biological replicate, we performed four technical replicates. For our analysis, we only included peptides that were consistently detected across all samples (not only three as this reviewer suggests). Proteins in Panel H are ER-related proteins that are significantly different from control neurons with an adjusted FDR ≤ 0.01 and Log2 fold change ≥ 0.56. The primary purpose of our proteomics experiments was to generate hypotheses and guide subsequent experiments and the main findings were corroborated by other experiments presented in the manuscript.

      Minor:

      (7) Figure 2 - supplement 3 and Figure 4 - supplement 3 are only mentioned in the discussion. The authors should consider referring to these data in the results section.

      This is a valid point. We have now added a new statement “Moreover, only 10% of DCVs co-transport with Rab10” in the Results (p. 6-7, l. 162-164).

      (8) Where is the pHluorin data shown in Figure 1 bleach-corrected? If so, this should be stated somewhere in the Ms. Moreover, the timing of the NH4Cl pulse should be indicated in the scheme in panel I.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing these omissions out. We have now included information about the timing of NH4Cl pulse in panel I. We did not do bleach-correction for the pHluorin data shown in Figure 1. It has been shown that pHluorin is very stable with a bleaching rate in the alkaline state of 0.06% per second and 0.0024% per second in the quenched state (Balaji and Ryan, 2007). Indeed, we did not observe obvious photobleaching in the first 30s during our imaging as indicated by the average trace of pHluorin intensity in panel I.

      (9) Page 3/ lines 59-60: "...strongest inhibition of neuropeptide accumulation...". What is probably meant is "...strongest inhibition of neuropeptide release".

      We agree this statement is unclear. Sasidharan et al used a coelomocyte uptake assay as an indirect readout for DCV release. The ‘strongest inhibition of neuropeptide accumulation’ in coelomocytes in Rab10 mutant indicates DCV fusion deficits. We have now replaced the text with “Rab10 deficiency produces the strongest inhibition of neuropeptide release in C. elegans” to make it more clear.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I strongly recommend the publishing of this study as a VOR with minor comments directed to the authors.

      (1) In Figure 4, the authors should include examples of tubular ER at the synapse, especially as this is an interesting point discussed in ln 226-229. Are there noticeable changes in the ER-mitochondria contacts at the synaptic boutons?

      We agree that examples of tubular ER at the synapse would improve the manuscript. We have now replaced the Figure 4A with such examples. We found it challenging to quantify ER-mitochondria contacts based on the electron microscopy (EM) images we currently have. The ER-mitochondria contact sites are quite rare in the cross-sections of our samples, making it difficult to perform a reliable quantitative analysis.

      (2) The limited impairment of calcium-ion homeostasis in Rab10 KD neurons is very interesting. Would the overexpression of Rab10T23N mimic the effect of a KD scenario? Is there a separation of function for Rab10 in calcium homeostasis vs. the regulation of protein synthesis?

      This is an interesting possibility. We tested this and expressed Rab10T23N in a new series of experiments. These data are presented as a new Figure 5 in the revised manuscript (p. 29). We observed that Ca2+ refilling after caffeine treatment was delayed to a similar extent in Rab10T23N-expressing and Rab10 KD neurons. While impaired Ca2+ homeostasis may affect protein synthesis through ER stress or mTORC1 activation, our findings indicate otherwise in Rab10 KD neurons. First, ATF4 levels, a marker of ER stress, were unaffected in Rab10 KD neurons. This indicates that any ER stress present is minimal or insufficient to significantly impact protein synthesis through this pathway. Second, we did not observe significant changes in mTORC1 activation in Rab10 KD neurons as indicated by a normal pS6K1 phosphorylation (see above). Based on these observations, we conclude that Rab10's roles in calcium homeostasis and protein synthesis are most likely separate.

      (3) The authors indicate that the internal release of calcium ions from the ER has no effect on DCV trafficking and fusion without showing the data. It is important to include this data as the major impact of the study is the dissecting of the calcium effects in mammalian neurons from the previous studies in invertebrates.

      We agree this is an important aspect in our reasoning. We are submitting the related manuscript on internal calcium stores to BioRVix. The link will be added to the consolidated version of our manuscript

      (4) The distinction between Rab3 and Rab10 co-trafficking on DCVs should be reported in the Results (currently, Figure 2 - supplement 3 is only mentioned in the Discussion) as it helps to understand the effects on DCV fusion.

      We agree. We now added a new statement “Moreover, only 10% of DCVs co-transport with Rab10” in the Results (p. 6, l. 162-163).

      Reference:

      Balaji, J., Ryan, T.A., 2007. Single-vesicle imaging reveals that synaptic vesicle exocytosis and endocytosis are coupled by a single stochastic mode. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 104, 20576–20581. https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.0707574105

      Brunner, J.W., Lammertse, H.C.A., Berkel, A.A. van, Koopmans, F., Li, K.W., Smit, A.B., Toonen, R.F., Verhage, M., Sluis, S. van der, 2022. Power and optimal study design in iPSC-based brain disease modelling. Molecular Psychiatry 28, 1545. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41380-022-01866-3

      Emperador-Melero, J., Huson, V., van Weering, J., Bollmann, C., Fischer von Mollard, G., Toonen, R.F., Verhage, M., 2018. Vti1a/b regulate synaptic vesicle and dense core vesicle secretion via protein sorting at the Golgi. Nat Commun 9, 3421. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-018-05699-z

      Granseth, B., Odermatt, B., Royle, S.J., Lagnado, L., 2006. Clathrin-Mediated Endocytosis Is the Dominant Mechanism of Vesicle Retrieval at Hippocampal Synapses. Neuron 51, 773–786. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuron.2006.08.029

      Ivanova, D., Dobson, K.L., Gajbhiye, A., Davenport, E.C., Hacker, D., Ultanir, S.K., Trost, M., Cousin, M.A., 2021. Control of synaptic vesicle release probability via VAMP4 targeting to endolysosomes. Science Advances 7, eabf3873. https://doi.org/10.1126/sciadv.abf3873

      Kwon, S.E., Chapman, E.R., 2011. Synaptophysin Regulates the Kinetics of Synaptic Vesicle Endocytosis in Central Neurons. Neuron 70, 847–854. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuron.2011.04.001

      Reshetniak, S., Fernández-Busnadiego, R., Müller, M., Rizzoli, S.O., Tetzlaff, C., 2020. Quantitative Synaptic Biology: A Perspective on Techniques, Numbers and Expectations. International Journal of Molecular Sciences 21, 7298. https://doi.org/10.3390/ijms21197298

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This valuable work analyzes how specialized cells in the auditory cells, known as the octopus cells, can detect coincidences in their inputs at the submillisecond time scale. While previous work indicated that these cells receive no inhibitory inputs, the present study unambiguously demonstrates that these cells receive inhibitory glycinergic inputs. The physiologic impact of these inputs needs to be studied further. It remains incomplete at present but could be made solid by addressing caveats related to similar sizes of excitatory postsynaptic potentials and spikes in the octopus neurons.

      We apologize for not explicitly describing our experimental methods and analyses procedures that ensure the discrimination between action potentials and EPSPs. This has been addressed in responses to reviewer comments and amended in the manuscript.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Kreeger and colleagues have explored the balance of excitation and inhibition in the cochlear nucleus octopus cells of mice using morphological, electrophysiological, and computational methods. On the surface, the conclusion, that synaptic inhibition is present, does not seem like a leap. However, the octopus cells have been in the past portrayed as devoid of inhibition. This view was supported by the seeming lack of glycinergic fibers in the octopus cell area and the lack of apparent IPSPs. Here, Kreeger et al. used beautiful immunohistochemical and mouse genetic methods to quantify the inhibitory and excitatory boutons over the complete surface of individual octopus cells and further analyzed the proportions of the different subtypes of spiral ganglion cell inputs. I think the analysis stands as one of the most complete descriptions of any neuron, leaving little doubt about the presence of glycinergic boutons.

      Kreeger et al then examined inhibition physiologically, but here I felt that the study was incomplete. Specifically, no attempt was made to assess the actual, biological values of synaptic conductance for AMPAR and GlyR. Thus, we don't really know how potent the GlyR could be in mediating inhibition. Here are some numbered comments:

      (1) "EPSPs" were evoked either optogenetically or with electrical stimulation. The resulting depolarizations are interpreted to be EPSPs. However previous studies from Oertel show that octopus cells have tiny spikes, and distinguishing them from EPSPs is tricky. No mention is made here about how or whether that was done. Thus, the analysis of EPSP amplitude is ambiguous.

      We agree that large EPSPs can be difficult to distinguish from an octopus cell’s short spikes during experiments. During analysis, we distinguished spikes from EPSPs by generating phase plots, which allow us to visualize the first derivative of the voltage trace on the y-axis and the value of the voltage on the x-axis at each moment in time. In the example shown below, four depolarizing events were electrically evoked in an octopus cell (panel A). The largest of these events (shown in orange in panels B-D) has an amplitude of ~9mV and could be a small spike. The first derivative of the voltage (panel C) reveals a bi-phasic response in the larger orange trace, where during the rising phase (mV/ms > 0) of the EPSP there is a second, sharper rising phase for the spike. Like more traditionally sized action potentials, phase plots for octopus cell spikes also reveal a sharp change in the rate of voltage change over time (Author response image 1 panel D, ✱) after the rising action of the EPSP begins to slow. EPSPs (shown in blue in panels B-D) lack the deflection in the phase plot. Not all cases were as unambiguous as this example. Therefore, our analysis only included subthreshold stimulation that unambiguously evoked EPSPs, not spikes. A brief description of this analysis has been added to the methods text (lines 625-627) and we have noted in the results section that both ChR2-evoked and electrically-evoked stimulation can produce small action potentials, which were excluded from analysis (lines 156-158).

      Author response image 1.

      (2) For this and later analysis, a voltage clamp of synaptic inputs would have been a simple alternative to avoid contaminating spikes or shunts by background or voltage-gated conductances. Yet only the current clamp was employed. I can understand that the authors might feel that the voltage clamp is 'flawed' because of the failure to clamp dendrites. But that may have been a good price to pay in this case. The authors should have at least justified their choice of method and detailed its caveats.

      We agree that data collected using voltage-clamp would have eliminated the confound of short action potentials and avoided the influence of voltage-gated conductances. The large-diameter, and comparatively simple dendritic trees of octopus cells make them good morphological candidates for reliable voltage clamp. However, as suggested, we were concerned that the abundance of channels open at the neuron’s resting potential would make it difficult to sufficiently clamp dendrites. Ultimately, given the low input resistances of octopus cells and the fast kinetics of excitatory inputs, we determined that bad voltage clamp conditions were likely to result in unclamped synaptic events with unpredicted distortions in kinetics and attenuation (To et al. 2022; PMID: 34480986; DOI: 10.1016/j.neuroscience.2021.08.024). We therefore chose to focus our efforts on current-clamp.

      Beyond the limits of both current-clamp and voltage-clamp, we chose to leave all conductances that influence EPSP dendritic propagation intact because our model demonstrates that active Kv and leak conductances shape and attenuate synaptic inputs as they travel through the dendritic tree (Supp. Fig. 4F-G). The addition of voltage-clamp recordings would not impact the conclusions we make about EPSP summation at the soma. Future studies will need to focus on a dendrite-centric view of local excitatory and inhibitory summation. For dendrite-centric experiments, dendritic voltage-clamp recordings are well suited to answer that set of questions.

      (3) The modeling raised several concerns. First, there is little presentation of assumptions, and of course, a model is entirely about its assumptions. For example, what excitatory conductance amplitudes were used? The same for inhibitory conductance? How were these values arrived at? The authors note that EPSGs and IPSGs had peaks at 0.3 and 3 ms. On what basis were these numbers obtained? The model's conclusions entirely depend on these values, and no measurements were made here that could have provided them. Parenthetical reference is made to Figure S5 where a range of values are tested, but with little explanation or justification.

      We apologize for not providing this information. We used our octopus neuron model to fit both EPSP and IPSP parameters to match experimental data. We have expanded the methods to include final values for the conductances (lines 649-651), which were adjusted to match experimental values seen in current-clamp recordings. We have also expanded the results section to describe each of the parameters we tuned (lines 203-222). An example of these adjustments is illustrated in Fig. 4F where the magnitude of inhibitory potentials at different conductances (100nS and 1nS) was compared to experimental data over a range of octopus cell input resistance conditions. Kinetic parameters were determined by aligning modeled PSPs to the rise times and full width at half maximum (FWHM) measurements from experiments under control and Kv block conditions. The experimental data for EPSPs and IPSPs that was used to fit the model is shown in Author response image 2 below.

      Author response image 2.

      (4) In experiments that combined E and I stimulation, what exactly were time courses of the conductance changes, and how 'synchronous' were they, given the different methods to evoke them? (had the authors done voltage clamp they would know the answers).

      We chose to focus data collection on voltage changes at the soma under physiological conditions to better understand how excitation and inhibition integrate at the somatic compartment. Our conclusions in the combined E and I stimulation experiments require the resting membrane properties of octopus cells to be intact to make physiologically-relevant conclusions. Our current-clamp data includes the critical impact of leak, Kv, and HCN conductances on this computation. Reliable voltage-clamp would necessitate the removal of the Kv and HCN conductances that shape PSP magnitude, shape, and speed. Because it was not necessary to measure the conductances and kinetics of specific channels, we chose to use current-clamp.

      Evoked IPSPs and EPSPs had cell-to-cell variability in their latencies to onset. Somatically-recorded optically-evoked inhibition under pharmacological conditions that changed cable properties had onset latencies between 2.5 and 4.3ms; electrically-evoked excitation under control conditions had latencies between 0.8 and 1.4ms. To overcome cell-to-cell timing variabilities, we presented a shuffled set of stimulation pairings that had a 3ms range of timings with 200µs intervals. As the evoked excitation and inhibition become more ‘synchronous’, the impact on EPSP magnitude and timing is greatest. Data presented in this paper was for the stimulation pairings that evokes a maximal shift in EPSP timing. On average, this occurred when the optical stimulation began ~1.2ms before electrical stimulation. Stimulation pairing times ranged between a 0ms offset and a 1.8ms offset at the extremes. An example of the shuffled stimulation pairings is shown in Author response image 3 below, and we have included information about the shuffled stimulus in the methods (lines 627-630)

      Author response image 3.

      (5) Figure 4G is confusing to me. Its point, according to the text, is to show that changes in membrane properties induced by a block of Kv and HCN channels would not be expected to alter the amplitudes of EPSCs and IPSCs across the dendritic expanse. Now we are talking about currents (not shunting effects), and the presumption is that the blockers would alter the resting potential and thus the driving force for the currents. But what was the measured membrane potential change in the blockers? Surely that was documented. To me, the bigger concern (stated in the text) is whether the blockers altered exocytosis, and thus the increase in IPSP amplitude in blockers is due BOTH to loss of shunting and increase in presynaptic spike width. Added to this is that 4AP will reduce the spike threshold, thus allowing more ChR2-expressing axons to reach the threshold. Figure 4G does not address this point.

      These are valuable points that motivated us to improve the clarity of this figure and the corresponding text. We discussed two separate points in this paragraph and were not clear. Our intention with Figure 4G was to address concerns that using pharmacological blockers changes driving forces and may confound the measured change in magnitude of postsynaptic potentials. Membrane potentials hyperpolarized by approximately 8-10 mV after application of blockers. We corrected for this effect by adding a holding current to depolarize the neuron to its baseline resting potential. Text in the results (lines 187-190) and figure legends have been changed to clarify these points.

      We also removed any discussion of presynaptic effects from this portion of the text because our description was incomplete and we did not directly collect data related to these claims. We originally wrote, “While blocking Kv and HCN allowed us to reveal IPSPs at the soma, 4-AP increases the duration of the already unphysiological ChR2-evoked presynaptic action potential (Jackman et al., 2014; DOI: 10.1523/jneurosci.4694-13.2014), resulting in altered release probabilities and synaptic properties, amongst other caveats (Mathie et al., 1998; DOI: 10.1016/S0306-3623(97)00034-7)”. Ultimately, effects on exocytosis, presynaptic excitability, or release probability are only relevant for the experiments presented in Figure 4. Figure 4 serves as evidence that synaptic release of glycine elicits strychnine-sensitive inhibitory postsynaptic potentials in octopus cells. Concerns of presynaptic effects do not carry over to the data presented in Figure 5, as Kv and HCN were not blocked in these experiments. Therefore, we have removed this portion of the text.

      (6) Figure 5F is striking as the key piece of biological data that shows that inhibition does reduce the amplitude of "EPSPs" in octopus cells. Given the other uncertainties mentioned, I wondered if it makes sense as an example of shunting inhibition. Specifically, what are the relative synaptic conductances, and would you predict a 25% reduction given the actual (not modeled) values?

      We agree that both shunting and hyperpolarizing inhibition could play a role in the measured EPSP changes. Because we focused data collection on voltage changes at the soma under physiological conditions, we cannot calculate the relative synaptic conductances. Together, our experimental current-clamp results paired with estimates from the model provide compelling evidence for the change we observe in EPSPs. Regardless, the relative weights of the synaptic conductances is a very interesting question, but this information is not necessary to answer the questions posed in this study, namely the impact of dendritic inhibition on the arrival of EPSPs in the soma.

      (7) Some of the supplemental figures, like 4 and 5, are hardly mentioned. Few will glean anything from them unless the authors direct attention to them and explain them better. In general, the readers would benefit from more complete explanations of what was done.

      We apologize for not fully discussing these figures in the results text. We have fully expanded the results section to detail the experiments and results presented in the supplement (lines 203-238).

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Kreeger et.al provided mechanistic evidence for flexible coincidence detection of auditory nerve synaptic inputs by octopus cells in the mouse cochlear nucleus. The octopus cells are specialized neurons that can fire repetitively at very high rates (> 800 Hz in vivo), yield responses dominated by the onset of sound for simple stimuli, and integrate auditory nerve inputs over a wide frequency span. Previously, it was thought that octopus cells received little inhibitory input, and their integration of auditory input depended principally on temporally precise coincidence detection of excitatory auditory nerve inputs, coupled with a low input resistance established by high levels of expression of certain potassium channels and hyperpolarization-activated channels.

      In this study, the authors used a combination of numerous genetic mouse models to characterize synaptic inputs and enable optogenetic stimulation of subsets of afferents, fluorescent microscopy, detailed reconstructions of the location of inhibitory synapses on the soma and dendrites of octopus cells, and computational modeling, to explore the importance of inhibitory inputs to the cells. They determined through assessment of excitatory and inhibitory synaptic densities that spiral ganglion neuron synapses are densest on the soma and proximal dendrite, while glycinergic inhibitory synaptic density is greater on the dendrites compared to the soma of octopus cells. Using different genetic lines, the authors further elucidated that the majority of excitatory synapses on the octopus cells are from type 1a spiral ganglion neurons, which have low response thresholds and high rates of spontaneous activity. In the second half of the paper, the authors employed electrophysiology to uncover the physiological response of octopus cells to excitatory and inhibitory inputs. Using a combination of pharmacological blockers in vitro cellular and computational modeling, the authors conclude that glycine in fact evokes IPSPs in octopus cells; these IPSPs are largely shunted by the high membrane conductance of the cells under normal conditions and thus were not clearly evident in prior studies. Pharmacological experiments point towards a specific glycine receptor subunit composition. Lastly, Kreeger et. al demonstrated with in vitro recordings and computational modeling that octopus cell inhibition modulates the amplitude and timing of dendritic spiral ganglion inputs to octopus cells, allowing for flexible coincidence detection.

      Strengths:

      The work combines a number of approaches and complementary observations to characterize the spatial patterns of excitatory and inhibitory synaptic input, and the type of auditory nerve input to the octopus cells. The combination of multiple mouse lines enables a better understanding of and helps to define, the pattern of synaptic convergence onto these cells. The electrophysiology provides excellent functional evidence for the presence of the inhibitory inputs, and the modeling helps to interpret the likely functional role of inhibition. The work is technically well done and adds an interesting dimension related to the processing of sound by these neurons. The paper is overall well written, the experimental tests are well-motivated and easy to follow. The discussion is reasonable and touches on both the potential implications of the work as well as some caveats.

      Weaknesses:

      While the conclusions presented by the authors are solid, a prominent question remains regarding the source of the glycinergic input onto octopus cells. In the discussion, the authors claim that there is no evidence for D-stellate, L-stellate, and tuberculoventral cell (all local inhibitory neurons of the ventral and dorsal cochlear nucleus) connections to octopus cells, and cite the relevant literature. An experimental approach will be necessary to properly rule out (or rule in) these cell types and others that may arise from other auditory brainstem nuclei. Understanding which cells provide the inhibitory input will be an essential step in clarifying its roles in the processing of sound by octopus cells.

      We are glad that the reviewer agrees with the conclusions we have made and is interested in learning more about how these findings impact sound processing. We agree that defining the source of inhibition will dramatically shape our understanding of the computation octopus cells are making. However, this is not an easy task, given the small size of the octopus cell area, and will involve considerable additional work. Since the overall findings do not depend on knowing the source of inhibition, we have instead re-written the discussion to clarify the lack of evidence for intrinsic inhibitory inputs to octopus cells, in addition to presenting likely candidates. As genetic profiles of cochlear nucleus and other auditory brainstem neurons become available, we intend to make and utilize genetic mouse models to answer questions like this.

      The authors showed that type 1a SGNs are the most abundant inputs to octopus cells via microscopy. However, in Figure 3 they compare optical stimulation of all classes of ANFs, then compare this against stimulation of type 1b/c ANFs. While a difference in the paired-pulse ratio (and therefore, likely release probability) can be inferred by the difference between Foxg1-ChR2 and Ntng1-ChR2, it would have been preferable to have specific data with selective stimulation of type 1a neurons.

      We agree that complete genetic access to only the Ia population would have been the preferable approach, but we did not have an appropriate line when beginning these experiments. Because our results did not suggest a meaningful difference between the populations, we did not pursue further investigation once a line was available.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Besides the points mentioned in the main review:

      Minor

      (1) I really like the graphics and the immunohistological presentation.

      (2) Lines 316-319 say that octopus cells lack things like back-propagating spikes and dendritic Ca spikes. How do you know this?

      This statement was intended to be a summary of suggestions from the literature and lacked references and context as written. We have rewritten this section and clarified that our hypothesis was formed from data found in the literature (lines 334-337).

      (3) Spectrograms of Figure 6A...where were these data obtained?

      We recorded and visualized human-generated rhythmic tapping and high-frequency squeaking sounds using Audacity. The visualizations of rhythmic tapping and imitated vocalizations are meant to show two different types of multi-frequency stimuli we hypothesize would result in somatic summation within an octopus cell’s spike integration window, despite differences in timing. We rewrote the figure legend to explain more clearly what is shown and how it relates to the model in Figure 6.

      (4) 'on-path' and 'off-path' seem like jargon that may not be clear to the average reader.

      Thank you for pointing out our use of unapproachable jargon. We have replaced the term from the figure with “proximal” and “distal” inhibition. In the main text, we now describe on-path and off-path together as the effect of location of dendritic inhibition on somatically recorded EPSPs.

      (5) The paper could benefit from a table of modeled values.

      We have added specific details about the modelling in the text and clarified which modeled values were referenced from previous computational models and which were tuned to fit experimental data. Since most values were taken from a referenced publication, we did not add a table and instead point readers towards that source.

      (6) Figure S4A-C what currents were delivered to the modeled cells?

      The model cells were injected with a -0.8 nA DC current for 300 ms in current clamp mode. This information has been added to the figure legend.

      (7) In that figure "scaling factors" scale exactly which channels?

      Scaling factor is used to scale low-voltage activated K<sup>+</sup> (ḡ<sub>KLT</sub>), high threshold K<sup>+</sup> (ḡ<sub>KHT</sub>), fast transient K<sup>+</sup> (ḡ<sub>KA</sub>), hyperpolarization-activated cyclic nucleotide-gated HCN (ḡ<sub>h</sub>) but not fast Na<sup>+</sup> (ḡ<sub>Na</sub>) and leak K<sup>+</sup> (ḡ<sub>leak</sub>). This information has been added to the text (lines 205-208 and 646-653).

      (8) In performing and modeling Kv/HCN block, do you know how complete the level of the block is?

      Since we cannot assess how complete the level of block is, we have changed the language in the text to clarify that we are reducing Kv and HCN channel conductance to the degree needed to increase resistance of the neuron (line 185).

      (9) More on this Figure S4. It is hardly referred to in the text except to say that it supports that blocking the Kv/HCN channels will enhance the IPSP. Given how large the figure is, can you offer more of a conclusion than that? Also, in the synaptic model in that figure, the IPSCs are presumably happening in current-clamp conditions, and the reduction in amplitude of the IPSC (as opposed to the increase in IPSP) is due to hyperpolarization. Can you simply state that so readers can track what this figure is showing? Other similar things: what is a transfer impedance? How is it measured? What do we take from the analysis?

      We have elaborated on our description of both Supp. Fig. 4 and Supp. Fig. 5 in the results section of the text (lines 203-238).

      (10) Figure S5 also needs a better explanation. E.g., in C-D, what does 'average' mean? The gray is an SD of this average? You modeled a range of values...but which ones are physiological? To me, this is a key point.

      We have elaborated on our description of both Supp. Fig. 4 and Supp. Fig. 5 in the results section of the text (lines 203-238).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      General:

      The images and 3-D reconstructions are visually stunning, but they are not colorblind-friendly and in some cases, hard to distinguish. This shows up particularly in the green and blue colors used in Figure 1. Also, better representative images could be used for Figure 1B.

      Thank you for pointing out that blue and green were difficult to distinguish in Figure 1H. We have outlined the green inhibitory puncta in this image to make them more distinguishable. We have also increased the resolution of the image in Figure 1B for better clarity. All other colors are selected from Wong, 2011 (PMID: 21850730; DOI: https://doi.org/10.1038/nmeth.1618).

      Supplemental Figure 1D: The low-power view is good to have, but the CN is too small and the image appears a bit noisy. An inset showing the CN on a larger scale (higher resolution image?) would be more convincing. In this image, I see what appear to be cells in the DCN labeled, which calls into question the purity of the source of optogenetic synaptic activation. It is also difficult to tell whether there are other cells labeled in the VCN. Such inputs would still be minor, but it would be good to be very clear about the expression pattern.

      To offer more information about the activity of the Ntng1<sup>Cre</sup> line in other regions of the auditory system, we increased the resolution of the image included in Supp. Fig. 1D and have also included an additional image (Supp. Fig. 1E) of a coronal section of the cochlear nucleus complex with Ntng1-tdT labelling. This image provides additional context for the cells labeled in the DCN. The text in the figure legend has been changed to clarify that some cells in the DCN were labeled (lines 118-120).

      We agree that in the Ntng1<sup>Cre</sup> experiments, there is the possibility of minor contamination from excitatory cells that express ChR2 outside of the spiral ganglion. This is also true for our Foxg1<sup>Cre</sup> and Foxg1<sup>Flp</sup> experiments, because these lines label cortical cells in addition to cochlear cells. However, we do not observe direct descending inputs from the cortex into the PVCN, making contamination from other Foxg1<sup>Cre</sup>-positive neurons unlikely. While non-cochlear inputs from the Ntng1<sup>Cre</sup> line are possible, evidence from both lines gives us confidence that we are not capturing inputs to octopus cells outside the cochlea. Central axons from Type I spiral ganglion neurons have VGLUT1+ synaptic terminals. When comparing the overlap between VGLUT1+ terminals and Foxg1-tdT labelling, we see full coverage. That is, all VGLUT+ terminals on octopus cells are co-labelled by Foxg1<sup>Cre</sup>-mediated expression of tdTomato. An example image is shown below. Here, an octopus cell soma is labeled with blue fluorescent Nissl stain and inputs to the cochlear nucleus complex are labeled with Foxg1<sup>Cre</sup>-dependent tdTomato (Foxg1-tdT; magenta). We have also immunolabeled for VGLUT1 puncta in green. This eliminates the possibility that VGLUT+ cells from outside the cochlea and cortex are sources of excitation to octopus cells.

      Author response image 4.

      Further, we have looked at expression of Ntng1-tdT and Foxg1-EYFP together in the octopus cell area.  An example image is shown below. All Ntng1-tdT+ fibers (magenta) are also Foxg1-EYFP+ (green), suggesting that all Ntng1<sup>Cre</sup>-targeted inputs to octopus cells are a part of the Foxg1<sup>Cre</sup>-targeted input population, which are very likely to only be from the cochlea. We have expanded the results section to include information about the overlap in expression driven by the Ntng1<sup>Cre</sup> and Foxg1<sup>Flp</sup> lines.

      Author response image 5.

      Supplemental Figure 2 G: These are a bit hard to read. Perhaps use a different image, or provide a reference outline drawing telling us what is what.

      We have used a different image with a Thy1-YFP labeled octopus cell for clarity.

      In some places, the term "SGN" is used when referencing the axons and terminals within the CN, and without some context, this was occasionally confusing (SGN would seem to refer to the cell bodies). In some places in the text, it may be preferable to separate SGN, auditory nerve fibers (ANFs), and terminals, as entities for clarity.

      In order to make the study accessible to a broad neuroscience audience, we refer to the neurons of the spiral ganglion and their central axon projections using one name. We understand why, for those well acquainted with the auditory periphery, condensing terminology may feel awkward. However, for those readers unfamiliar with the anatomy of the cochlea and auditory nerve, we feel that the use of “SGN central axon” makes it clear that the “auditory nerve fibers” come from neurons in the spiral ganglion. This is clarified in the first paragraph of the introduction (lines 29-31) and in the methods (line 533).

      Specific: Numbers refer to the line numbers on the manuscript.

      L29-31: Cochlear nucleus neurons are more general in their responses than this sentence indicates. While we can all agree that they are specialized to carry (or improve upon) the representation of these specific features of sound, they also respond more generally to sounds that might not have specific information in any of these domains. They are not silos of neural computation, and their outputs become mixed and "re-represented" well before they reach the auditory cortex. Octopus cells are no exception to this. I suggest striking most of the first paragraph, and instead using the first sentence to lead into the second paragraph, and putting the last sentence (of the current first paragraph) at the end of the second (now first) paragraph.

      We agree with this assessment and have made major changes to the introduction in line with these suggestions.

      L33-46: A number of points in this paragraph need references (exp. line 41).

      We agree and have added references accordingly.

      L43: Not sure what is meant by "fire at the onset of the sound, breaking it up into its frequency components"?

      We changed this text as part of a major reworking of the introduction.

      L47-66: Again more citations are needed (at the end of sentence at line 55, probably moving some of the citations from the next sentence up).

      We agree and have added references accordingly.

      L51: The consistent orientation of octopus cell dendrites across the ANFs has been claimed in the literature (as mentioned here), but there are some (perhaps problematic - plane of sectioning?) counterexamples from the older Golgi-stained images, and even amongst intracellularly stained cells (for example see Reccio-Spinoza and Rhode, 2020). This is important with regards to the broader hypothesis regarding traveling-wave compensation (e.g., McGinley et al; but also many others); if the cells are not all in the appropriate orientation then such compensation may be problematic. Likewise, the data from Lu et al., 2022, points towards a range of sensitivity to frequency-swept stimuli, some of which work in opposition to the traveling wave compensation hypothesis. It would seem that with the Thy1 mice, you have an opportunity to clarify the orientation. Figures 1A and 2A show a consistent dendritic orientation, assuming that these drawings are reconstructions of the cells as they were actually oriented in the tissue. Can you either comment on this or provide clearer evidence?

      We are happy to offer more information about the appearances of octopus cells in our preparations. In our hands, sparsely labeled octopus cells in Thy1-YFP-H mice show consistent dendritic orientation when visualized in a 15 degree parasaggital plane, with the most diversity apparent in cells with somas located more dorsally in the octopus cell area. We hypothesize that this is due to the limited area through which the central projections of spiral ganglion neurons (i.e. ANFs) must pass through before they enter the dorsal cochlear nucleus and continue their tonotopic organization in that area.

      A caveat to studies without physiological or genetic identification of octopus cells is the assumption that all neurons in the octopus cell area are octopus cells. We find, especially along the borders of the octopus cell area, that stellate cells can be seen amongst octopus cells. Because stellate cell dendrites are not oriented like octopus cell dendrites, any stellate cells misidentified as octopus cells would appear to have poorly-oriented dendrites. This may explain why some studies report this finding. In addition, it can be difficult to assess tonotopic organization because of the 3D trajectory of tightly bundled axons, which is not capturable by a single section plane. Although a parasaggital plane of sectioning captures the tonotopic axis in one part of the octopus cell area, that same plane may be perpendicular at the opposing end.

      L67: canonical -> exceptional.

      Thank you for the suggestion. We have made this change in the introduction.

      L127: This paragraph was confusing on first reading. I don't think Supplemental Figure 1D shows the restricted pattern of expression very clearly. The "restricted to SGNs" might be better as "restricted to auditory nerve fibers" (except in the DCN, where there seem to be some scattered small cells?). A higher magnification image of the CN, but lower magnification than in panel E, would be helpful here.

      To avoid confusion, we have re-written this paragraph (lines 117-127) and included a higher magnification image of the CN in a revised Supp. Fig. 1.

      L168: Here, perhaps say ANFs instead of SGNs.

      As above, we have decided to describe ANFs as SGN central axons to make the anatomy more accessible to people unfamiliar with cochlear anatomy.

      L201-204: The IPSPs are surprisingly slow (Figures 5B, C), especially given the speed of the EPSPs/EPSCs in these cells. This is reminiscent of the asymmetry between EPSC and IPSC kinetics in bushy cells (Xie and Manis, 2014). The kinetics used in the model (3 ms; mentioned on line 624) however seem a bit arbitrary and no data is provided for the selection of that value. Were there any direct measurements of the IPSC kinetics (all of the traces in the paper are in the current clamp) that were used to justify this value?

      The kinetics of the somatically-recorded IPSPs are subject to the effects of our pharmacological manipulations. EPSPs measured at the soma under control conditions are small amplitude and rapid. With pharmacological reduction of HCN and Kv channels, EPSPs are larger and slower (please see figure in response to a similar question posed by Reviewer #1). We expect that this change also occurs with the IPSP kinetics under pharmacological conditions. Our justification of kinetics has been expanded and justified in the methods section (lines 641-661).

      L594: Technically, this is a -11 mV junction potential, but thanks for including the information.

      We have corrected this in the text (line 618). Thank you for the close reading of all experimental and methodological details.

      L595: The estimated power of the LED illumination at the focal plane should be measured and indicated here.

      We measured the power of the LED illumination at the focal plane using a PM100D Compact Power and Energy Meter Console (Thorlabs), a S120C Photodiode Power Sensor (Thorlabs), and a 1000µm diameter Circular Precision Pinhole (Thorlabs). Light intensity at the focal plane ranged between 1.9 and 4.1mW/mm<sup>2</sup>, corresponding to 6% and 10% intensity on the Colibri5 system. We have reported these measurements in the results section (Lines 621-622).

      L609: One concern about the model is that the integration time of 25 microseconds is rather close to the relative shifts in latency. While I doubt it will make a difference (except in the number), it may be worth verifying (spot checks, at least) that running the model with a 5 or 10-microsecond step yields a similar pattern of latency shifts (e.g., Supplementary Figure 5, Figure 5).

      Also, it is not clear what temperature the model was executed at (I would presume 35C); this needs to be given, and channel Q10's listed.

      We realize that additional information is needed to fully understand the model and have added this to the results and the methods. The synaptic mechanism (.mod) files were obtained from Manis and Campagnola (2018) (PMID: 29331233; DOI: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.heares.2017.12.017). Q10 (3) and temperature (22°C) were also matched to parameters from Manis and Campagnola (2018). Because temperature is a critical factor for channel kinetics, we verified that our primary results remain consistent under conditions using a temperature of 35°C and a time step of 5µs, depicted below. Panel A illustrates the increase in IPSP as a function of glycine conductance under Kv+HCN block conditions at 35°C. As at 22°C, an increase in IPSP magnitude is absent in the control condition at 35°C. Panels B and C provide a direct comparison between the initial (i.e. 22°C) and suggested (i.e. 35°C) simulation conditions. Again we found that temperature does not have a major impact on the amplitude of IPSPs. Thus, results at 35°C do not change the conclusions we make from the model.

      Author response image 6.

      The nominal conductance densities should at least be provided in a table (supplemental, in addition to including them in the deposited code). The method for "optimization" of the conductance densities to match the experimental recordings needs to be described; the parameter space can be quite large in a model such as this. The McGinley reference needs a number.

      We added a more thorough description of modeling parameters and justification of choices in the methods section of the text (lines 641-661). We have also added a reference number to the McGinley 2012 reference in the text.

      I think this is required by the journal:

      The model code, test results, and simulation results should be deposited in a public resource (Github would be preferable, but dryad, Zenodo, or Figshare could work), and the URL/doi for the resource provided in the manuscript. This includes the morphology swc/hoc file. The code should be in a form, and with a description, that readily allows an interested party with appropriate skills to download it and run it to generate the figures.

      We will upload the code and all associated simulation files to the ModelDB repository upon publication.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Response to Reviewer #1:

      Thank you for the careful reading and the positive evaluation of our manuscript. As you mentioned, the present study tried to address the question of how the lost genomic functions could be compensated by evolutionary adaptation, indicating the potential mechanism of "constructive" rather than "destructive" evolution. Thank you for the instructive comments that helped us to improve the manuscript. We sincerely hope the revised manuscript and the following point-to-point response meet your concerns.

      • Line 80 "Growth Fitness" is this growth rate?

      Yes. The sentence was revised as follows.

      (L87-88) “The results demonstrated that most evolved populations (Evos) showed improved growth rates, in which eight out of nine Evos were highly significant (Fig. 1B, upper).”

      • Line 94 a more nuanced understanding of r/K selection theory, allows for trade-ups between R and K, as well as trade-offs. This may explain why you did not see a trade-off between growth and carrying capacity in this study. See this paper https://doi.org/10.1038/s41396-023-01543-5. Overall, your evos lineages evolved higher growth rates and lower carrying capacity (Figures 1B, C, E). If selection was driving the evolution of higher growth rates, it may have been that there was no selective pressure to maintain high carrying capacity. This means that the evolutionary change you observed in carrying capacity may have been neutral "drift" of the carrying capacity trait, during selection for growth rate, not because of a trade-off between R and K. This is especially likely since carrying capacity declined during evolution. Unless the authors have convincing evidence for a tradeoff, I suggest they remove this claim.

      • Line 96 the authors introduce a previous result where they use colony size to measure growth rate, this finding needs to be properly introduced and explained so that we can understand the context of the conclusion.

      • Line 97 This sentence "the collapse of the trade-off law likely resulted from genome reduction." I am not sure how the authors can draw this conclusion, what is the evidence supporting that the genome size reduction causes the breakdown of the tradeoff between R and K (if there was a tradeoff)?

      Thank you for the reference information and the thoughtful comments. The recommended paper was newly cited, and the description of the trade-off collapse was deleted. Accordingly, the corresponding paragraph was rewritten as follows.

      (L100-115) “Intriguingly, a positive correlation was observed between the growth fitness and the carrying capacity of the Evos (Fig. 1D). It was somehow consistent with the positive correlations between the colony growth rate and the colony size of a genome-reduced strain 11 and between the growth rates and the saturated population size of an assortment of genome reduced strains 13. Nevertheless, the negative correlation between growth rate and carrying capacity, known as the r/K selection30,31 was often observed as the trade-off relationship between r and K in the evolution and ecology studies 32 33,34. As the r/K trade-off was proposed to balance the cellular metabolism that resulted from the cost of enzymes involved 34, the deleted genes might play a role in maintaining the metabolism balance for the r/K correlation. On the other hand, the experimental evolution (i.e., serial transfer) was strictly performed within the exponential growth phase; thus, the evolutionary selection was supposed to be driven by the growth rate without selective pressure to maintain the carrying capacity. The declined carrying capacity might have been its neutral "drift" but not a trade-off to the growth rate. Independent and parallel experimental evolution of the reduced genomes selecting either r or K is required to clarify the actual mechanisms.”

      • Line 103 Genome mutations. The authors claim that there are no mutations in parallel but I see that there is a 1199 base pair deletion in eight of the nine evo strains (Table S3). I would like the author to mention this and I'm actually curious about why the authors don't consider this parallel evolution.

      Thank you for your careful reading. According to your comment, we added a brief description of the 1199-bp deletion detected in the Evos as follows.

      (L119-122) “The number of mutations largely varied among the nine Evos, from two to 13, and no common mutation was detected in all nine Evos (Table S3). A 1,199-bp deletion of insH was frequently found in the Evos (Table S3, highlighted), which well agreed with its function as a transposable sequence.”

      • Line 297 Please describe the media in full here - this is an important detail for the evolution experiment. Very frustrating to go to reference 13 and find another reference, but no details of the method. Looked online for the M63 growth media and the carbon source is not specified. This is critical for working out what selection pressures might have driven the genetic and transcriptional changes that you have measured. For example, the parallel genetic change in 8/9 populations is a deletion of insH and tdcD (according to Table S3). This is acetate kinase, essential for the final step in the overflow metabolism of glucose into acetate. If you have a very low glucose concentration, then it could be that there was selection to avoid fermentation and devote all the pyruvate that results from glycolysis into the TCA cycle (which is more efficient than fermentation in terms of ATP produced per pyruvate).

      Sorry for the missing information on the medium composition, which was additionally described in the Materials and Methods. The glucose concentration in M63 was 22 mM, which was supposed to be enough for bacterial growth. Thank you for your intriguing thinking about linking the medium component to the genome mutation-mediated metabolic changes. As there was no experimental result regarding the biological function of gene mutation in the present study, please allow us to address this issue in our future work.

      (L334-337) “In brief, the medium contains 62 mM dipotassium hydrogen phosphate, 39 mM potassium dihydrogen phosphate, 15 mM ammonium sulfate, 15 μM thiamine hydrochloride, 1.8 μM Iron (II) sulfate, 0.2 mM magnesium sulfate, and 22 mM glucose.”

      • Line 115. I do not understand this argument "They seemed highly related to essentiality, as 11 out of 49 mutated genes were essential (Table S3)." Is this a significant enrichment compared to the expectation, i.e. the number of essential genes in the genome? This enrichment needs to be tested with a Hypergeometric test or something similar.

      • Also, "As the essential genes were known to be more conserved than nonessential ones, the high frequency of the mutations fixed in the essential genes suggested the mutation in essentiality for fitness increase was the evolutionary strategy for reduced genome." I do not think that there is enough evidence to support this claim, and it should be removed.

      Sorry for the unclear description. Yes, the mutations were significantly enriched in the essential genes (11 out of 45 genes) compared to the essential genes in the whole genome (286 out of 3290 genes). The improper description linking the mutation in essential genes to the fitness increase was removed, and an additional explanation on the ratio of essential genes was newly supplied as follows.

      (L139-143) “The ratio of essential genes in the mutated genes was significantly higher than in the total genes (286 out of 3290 genes, Chi-square test p=0.008). As the essential genes were determined according to the growth35 and were known to be more conserved than nonessential ones 36,37, the high frequency of the mutations fixed in the essential genes was highly intriguing and reasonable.”

      • Line 124 Regarding the mutation simulations, I do not understand how the observed data were compared to the simulated data, and how conclusions were drawn. Can the authors please explain the motivation for carrying out this analysis, and clearly explain the conclusions?

      Random simulation was additionally explained in the Materials and Methods and the conclusion of the random simulation was revised in the Results, as follows.

      (L392-401) “The mutation simulation was performed with Python in the following steps. A total of 65 mutations were randomly generated on the reduced genome, and the distances from the mutated genomic locations to the nearest genomic scars caused by genome reduction were calculated. Subsequently, Welch's t-test was performed to evaluate whether the distances calculated from the random mutations were significantly longer or shorter than those calculated from the mutations that occurred in Evos. The random simulation, distance calculation, and statistic test were performed 1,000 times, which resulted in 1,000 p values. Finally, the mean of p values (μp) was calculated, and a 95% reliable region was applied. It was used to evaluate whether the 65 mutations in the Evos were significantly close to the genomic scars, i.e., the locational bias.”

      (L148-157) “Random simulation was performed to verify whether there was any bias or hotspot in the genomic location for mutation accumulation due to the genome reduction. A total of 65 mutations were randomly generated on the reduced genome (Fig. 2B), and the genomic distances from the mutations to the nearest genome reduction-mediated scars were calculated. Welch's t-test was performed to evaluate whether the genomic distances calculated from random mutations significantly differed from those from the mutations accumulated in the Evos. As the mean of p values (1,000 times of random simulations) was insignificant (Fig. 2C, μp > 0.05), the mutations fixed on the reduced genome were either closer or farther to the genomic scars, indicating there was no locational bias for mutation accumulation caused by genome reduction.”

      • Line 140 The authors should give some background here - explain the idea underlying chromosomal periodicity of the transcriptome, to help the reader understand this analysis.

      • Line 142 Here and elsewhere, when referring to a method, do not just give the citation, but also refer to the methods section or relevant supplementary material.

      The analytical process (references and methods) was described in the Materials and Methods, and the reason we performed the chromosomal periodicity was added in the Results as follows.

      (L165-172) “As the E. coli chromosome was structured, whether the genome reduction caused the changes in its architecture, which led to the differentiated transcriptome reorganization in the Evos, was investigated. The chromosomal periodicity of gene expression was analyzed to determine the structural feature of genome-wide pattern, as previously described 28,38. The analytical results showed that the transcriptomes of all Evos presented a common six-period with statistical significance, equivalent to those of the wild-type and ancestral reduced genomes (Fig. 3A, Table S4).”

      • Line 151 "The expression levels of the mutated genes were higher than those of the remaining genes (Figure 3B)"- did this depend on the type of mutation? There were quite a few early stops in genes, were these also more likely to be expressed? And how about the transcriptional regulators, can you see evidence of their downstream impact?

      Sorry, we didn't investigate the detailed regulatory mechanisms of 49 mutated genes, which was supposed to be out of the scope of the present study. Fig. 3B was the statistical comparison between 3225 and 49 genes. It didn't mean that all mutated genes expressed higher than the others. The following sentences were added to address your concern.

      (L181-185) “As the regulatory mechanisms or the gene functions were supposed to be disturbed by the mutations, the expression levels of individual genes might have been either up- or down-regulated. Nevertheless, the overall expression levels of all mutated genes tended to be increased. One of the reasons was assumed to be the mutation essentiality, which remained to be experimentally verified.”

      • Line 199 onward. The authors used WGCNA to analyze the gene expression data of evolved organisms. They identified distinct gene modules in the reduced genome, and through further analysis, they found that specific modules were strongly associated with key biological traits like growth fitness, gene expression changes, and mutation rates. Did the authors expect that there was variation in mutation rate across their populations? Is variation from 3-16 mutations that they observed beyond the expectation for the wt mutation rate? The genetic causes of mutation rate variation are well understood, but I could not see any dinB, mutT,Y, rad, or pol genes among the discovered mutations. I would like the authors to justify the claim that there was mutation rate variation in the evolved populations.

      Thank you for the intriguing thinking. We don't think the mutation rates were significantly varied across the nine populations, as no mutation occurred in the MMR genes, as you noticed. Our previous study showed that the spontaneous mutation rate of the reduced genome was higher than that of the wild-type genome (Nishimura et al., 2017, mBio). As nonsynonymous mutations were not detected in all nine Evos, the spontaneous mutation rate couldn't be calculated (because it should be evaluated according to the ratio of nonsynonymous and synonymous single-nucleotide substitutions in molecular evolution). Therefore, discussing the mutation rate in the present study was unavailable. The following sentence was added for a better understanding of the gene modules.

      (L242-245) “These modules M2, M10 and M16 might be considered as the hotspots for the genes responsible for growth fitness, transcriptional reorganization, and mutation accumulation of the reduced genome in evolution, respectively.”

      • Line 254 I get the idea of all roads leading to Rome, which is very fitting. However, describing the various evolutionary strategies and homeostatic and variable consequence does not sound correct - although I am not sure exactly what is meant here. Looking at Figure 7, I will call strategy I "parallel evolution", that is following the same or similar genetic pathways to adaptation and strategy ii I would call divergent evolution. I am not sure what strategy iii is. I don't want the authors to use the terms parallel and divergent if that's not what they mean. My request here would be that the authors clearly describe these strategies, but then show how their results fit in with the results, and if possible, fit with the naming conventions, of evolutionary biology.

      Thank you for your kind consideration and excellent suggestion. It's our pleasure to adopt your idea in tour study. The evolutionary strategies were renamed according to your recommendation. Both the main text and Fig. 7 were revised as follows.

      (L285-293) “Common mutations22,44 or identical genetic functions45 were reported in the experimental evolution with different reduced genomes, commonly known as parallel evolution (Fig. 7, i). In addition, as not all mutations contribute to the evolved fitness 22,45, another strategy for varied phenotypes was known as divergent evolution (Fig. 7, ii). The present study accentuated the variety of mutations fixed during evolution. Considering the high essentiality of the mutated genes (Table S3), most or all mutations were assumed to benefit the fitness increase, partially demonstrated previously 20. Nevertheless, the evolved transcriptomes presented a homeostatic architecture, revealing the divergent to convergent evolutionary strategy (Fig. 7, iii).”

      Author response image 1.

      • Line 327 Growth rates/fitness. I don't think this should be called growth fitness- a rate is being calculated. I would like the authors to explain how the times were chosen - do the three points have to be during the log phase? Can you also explain what you mean by choosing three ri that have the largest mean and minor variance?

      Sorry for the confusing term usage. The fitness assay was changed to the growth assay. Choosing three ri that have the largest mean and minor variance was to avoid the occasional large values (blue circle), as shown in the following figure. In addition, the details of the growth analysis can be found at https://doi.org/10.3791/56197 (ref. 59), where the video of experimental manipulation, protocol, and data analysis is deposited. The following sentence was added in accordance.

      Author response image 2.

      (L369-371) “The growth rate was determined as the average of three consecutive ri, showing the largest mean and minor variance to avoid the unreliable calculation caused by the occasionally occurring values. The details of the experimental and analytical processes can be found at https://doi.org/10.3791/56197.”

      • Line 403 Chromosomal periodicity analysis. The windows chosen for smoothing (100kb) seem big. Large windows make sense for some things - for example looking at how transcription relates to DNA replication timing, which is a whole-genome scale trend. However, here the authors are looking for the differences after evolution, which will be local trends dependent on specific genes and transcription factors. 100kb of the genome would carry on the order of one hundred genes and might be too coarse-grained to see differences between evos lineages.

      Thank you for the advice. We agree that the present analysis focused on the global trend of gene expression. Varying the sizes may lead to different patterns. Additional analysis was performed according to your comment. The results showed that changes in window size (1, 10, 50, 100, and 200 kb) didn't alter the periodicity of the reduced genome, which agreed with the previous study on a different reduced genome MDS42 of a conserved periodicity (Ying et al., 2013, BMC Genomics). The following sentence was added in the Materials and Methods.

      (L460-461) “Note that altering the moving average did not change the max peak.”

      • Figures - the figures look great. Figure 7 needs a legend.

      Thank you. The following legend was added.

      (L774-777) “Three evolutionary strategies are proposed. Pink and blue arrowed lines indicate experimental evolution and genome reduction, respectively. The size of the open cycles represents the genome size. Black and grey indicate the ancestor and evolved genomes, respectively.”

      Response to Reviewer #2:

      Thank you for reviewing our manuscript and for your fruitful comments. We agree that our study leaned towards elaborating observed findings rather than explaining the detailed biological mechanisms. We focused on the genome-wide biological features rather than the specific biological functions. The underlying mechanisms indeed remained unknown, leaving the questions as you commented. We didn't perform the fitness assay on reconstituted (single and combinatorial) mutants because the research purpose was not to clarify the regulatory or metabolic mechanisms. It's why the RNA-Seq analysis provided the findings on genome-wide patterns and chromosomal view, which were supposed to be biologically valuable. We did understand your comments and complaints that the conclusions were biologically meaningless, as ALE studies that found the specific gene regulation or improved pathway was the preferred story in common, which was not the flow of the present study.

      For this reason, our revision may not address all these concerns. Considering your comments, we tried our best to revise the manuscript. The changes made were highlighted. We sincerely hope the revision and the following point-to-point response are acceptable.

      Major remarks:

      (1) The authors outlined the significance of ALE in genome-reduced organisms and important findings from published literature throughout the Introduction section. The description in L65-69, which I believe pertains to the motivation of this study, seems vague and insufficient to convey the novelty or necessity of this study i.e. it is difficult to grasp what aspects of genome-reduced biology that this manuscript intends to focus/find/address.

      Sorry for the unclear writing. The sentences were rewritten for clarity as follows.

      (L64-70) “Although the reduced growth rate caused by genome reduction could be recovered by experimental evolution, it remains unclear whether such an evolutionary improvement in growth fitness was a general feature of the reduced genome and how the genome-wide changes occurred to match the growth fitness increase. In the present study, we performed the experimental evolution with a reduced genome in multiple lineages and analyzed the evolutionary changes of the genome and transcriptome.”

      (2) What is the rationale behind the lineage selection described in Figure S1 legend "Only one of the four overnight cultures in the exponential growth phase (OD600 = 0.01~0.1) was chosen for the following serial transfer, highlighted in red."?

      The four wells (cultures of different initial cell concentrations) were measured every day, and only the well that showed OD600=0.01~0.1 (red) was transferred with four different dilution rates (e.g., 10, 100, 1000, and 10000 dilution rates). It resulted in four wells of different initial cell concentrations. Multiple dilutions promised that at least one of the wells would show the OD600 within the range of 0.01 to 0.1 after the overnight culture. They were then used for the next serial transfer. Fig. S1 provides the details of the experimental records. The experimental evolution was strictly controlled within the exponential phase, quite different from the commonly conducted ALE that transferred a single culture in a fixed dilution rate. Serial transfer with multiple dilution rates was previously applied in our evolution experiments and well described in Nishimura et al., 2017, mBio; Lu et al., 2022, Comm Biol; Kurokawa et al., 2022, Front Microbiol, etc. The following sentence was added in the Materials and Methods.

      (L344-345) “Multiple dilutions changing in order promised at least one of the wells within the exponential growth phase after the overnight culture.”

      (3) The measured growth rate of the end-point 'F2 lineage' shown in Figure S2 seemed comparable to the rest of the lineages (A1 to H2), but the growth rate of 'F2' illustrated in Figure 1B indicates otherwise (L83-84). What is the reason for the incongruence between the two datasets?

      Sorry for the unclear description. The growth rates shown in Fig. S2 were obtained during the evolution experiment using the daily transfer's initial and final OD600 values. The growth rates shown in Fig. 1B were obtained from the final population (Evos) growth assay and calculated from the growth curves (biological replication, N=4). Fig. 1B shows the precisely evaluated growth rates, and Fig. S2 shows the evolutionary changes in growth rates. Accordingly, the following sentence was added to the Results.

      (L84-87) “As the growth increases were calculated according to the initial and final records, the exponential growth rates of the ancestor and evolved populations were obtained according to the growth curves for a precise evaluation of the evolutionary changes in growth.”

      (4) Are the differences in growth rate statistically significant in Figure 1B?

      Eight out of nine Evos were significant, except F2. The sentences were rewritten and associated with the revised Fig. 1B, indicating significance.

      (L87-90) “The results demonstrated that most evolved populations (Evos) showed improved growth rates, in which eight out of nine Evos were highly significant (Fig. 1B, upper). However, the magnitudes of growth improvement were considerably varied, and the evolutionary dynamics of the nine lineages were somehow divergent (Fig. S2).”

      (5) The evolved lineages showed a decrease in their maximal optical densities (OD600) compared to the ancestral strain (L85-86). ALE could accompany changes in cell size and morphologies, (doi: 10.1038/s41586-023-06288-x; 10.1128/AEM.01120-17), which may render OD600 relatively inaccurate for cell density comparison. I suggest using CFU/mL metrics for the sake of a fair comparison between Anc and Evo.

      The methods evaluating the carrying capacity (i.e., cell density, population size, etc.) do not change the results. Even using CFU is unfair for the living cells that can not form colonies and unfair if the cell size changes. Optical density (OD600) provides us with the temporal changes of cell growth in a 15-minute interval, which results in an exact evaluation of the growth rate in the exponential phase. CFU is poor at recording the temporal changes of population changes, which tend to result in an inappropriate growth rate. Taken together, we believe that our method was reasonable and reliable. We hope you can accept the different way of study.

      (6) Please provide evidence in support of the statement in L115-119. i.e. statistical analysis supporting that the observed ratio of essential genes in the mutant pool is not random.

      The statistic test was performed, and the following sentence was added.

      (L139-141) “The ratio of essential genes in the mutated genes was significantly higher than in the total genes (286 out of 3290 genes, Chi-square test p=0.008).”

      (7) The assumption that "mutation abundance would correlate to fitness improvement" described in L120-122: "The large variety in genome mutations and no correlation of mutation abundance to fitness improvement strongly suggested that no mutations were specifically responsible or crucially essential for recovering the growth rate of the reduced genome" is not easy to digest, in the sense that (i) the effect of multiple beneficial mutations are not necessarily summative, but are riddled with various epistatic interactions (doi: 10.1016/j.mec.2023.e00227); (ii) neutral hitchhikers are of common presence (you could easily find reference on this one); (iii) hypermutators that accumulate greater number of mutations in a given time are not always the eventual winners in competition games (doi: 10.1126/science.1056421). In this sense, the notion that "mutation abundance correlates to fitness improvement" in L120-122 seems flawed (for your perusal, doi: 10.1186/gb-2009-10-10-r118).

      Sorry for the improper description and confusing writing, and thank you for the fruitful knowledge on molecular evolution. The sentence was deleted, and the following one was added.

      (L145-146) “Nevertheless, it was unclear whether and how these mutations were explicitly responsible for recovering the growth rate of the reduced genome.”

      (8) Could it be possible that the large variation in genome mutations in independent lineages results from a highly rugged fitness landscape characterized by multiple fitness optima (doi: 10.1073/pnas.1507916112)? If this is the case, I disagree with the notion in L121-122 "that no mutations were specifically responsible or crucially essential" It does seem to me that, for example, the mutations in evo A2 are specifically responsible and essential for the fitness improvement of evo A2 in the evolutionary condition (M63 medium). Fitness assessment of individual (or combinatorial) mutants reconstituted in the Ancestral background would be a bonus.

      Thank you for the intriguing thinking. The sentence was deleted. Please allow us to adapt your comment to the manuscript as follows.

      (L143-145) “The large variety of genome mutations fixed in the independent lineages might result from a highly rugged fitness landscape 38.”

      (9) L121-122: "...no mutations were specifically responsible or crucially essential for recovering the growth rate of the reduced genome". Strictly speaking, the authors should provide a reference case of wild-type E. coli ALE in order to reach definitive conclusions that the observed mutation events are exclusive to the genome-reduced strain. It is strongly recommended that the authors perform comparative analysis with an ALEed non-genome-reduced control for a more definitive characterization of the evolutionary biology in a genome-reduced organism, as it was done for "JCVI-syn3.0B vs non-minimal M. mycoides" (doi: 10.1038/s41586-023-06288-x) and "E. coli eMS57 vs MG1655" (doi: 10.1038/s41467-019-08888-6).

      The improper description was deleted in response to comments 7 and 8. The mentioned references were cited in the manuscript (refs 21 and 23). Thank you for the experimental advice. We are sorry that the comparison of wild-type and reduced genomes was not in the scope of the present study and will probably be reported soon in our future work.

      (10) L146-148: "The homeostatic periodicity was consistent with our previous findings that the chromosomal periodicity of the transcriptome was independent of genomic or environmental variation" A Previous study also suggested that the amplitudes of the periodic transcriptomes were significantly correlated with the growth rates (doi: 10.1093/dnares/dsaa018). Growth rates of 8/9 Evos were higher compared to Anc, while that of Evo F2 remained similar. Please comment on the changes in amplitudes of the periodic transcriptomes between Anc and each Evo.

      Thank you for the suggestion. The correlation between the growth rates and the amplitudes of chromosomal periodicity was statistically insignificant (p>0.05). It might be a result of the limited data points. Compared with the only nine data points in the present study, the previous study analyzed hundreds of transcriptomes associated with the corresponding growth rates, which are suitable for statistical evaluation. In addition, the changes in growth rates were more significant in the previous study than in the present study, which might influence the significance. It's why we did not discuss the periodic amplitude.

      (11) Please elaborate on L159-161: "It strongly suggested the essentiality mutation for homeostatic transcriptome architecture happened in the reduced genome.".

      Sorry for the improper description. The sentence was rewritten as follows.

      (L191-193) “The essentiality of the mutations might have participated in maintaining the homeostatic transcriptome architecture of the reduced genome.”

      (12) Is FPKM a valid metric for between-sample comparison? The growing consensus in the community adopts Transcripts Per Kilobase Million (TPM) for comparing gene expression levels between different samples (Figure 3B; L372-379).

      Sorry for the unclear description. The FPKM indicated here was globally normalized, statistically equivalent to TPM. The following sentence was added to the Materials and Methods.

      (L421-422) “The resulting normalized FPKM values were statistically equivalent to TPM.”

      (13) Please provide % mapped frequency of mutations in Table S3.

      They were all 100%. The partially fixed mutations were excluded in the present study. The following sentence was added to the caption of Table S3.

      (Supplementary file, p 9) “Note that the entire population held the mutations, i.e., 100% frequency in DNA sequencing.”

      (14) To my knowledge, M63 medium contains glucose and glycerol as carbon sources. The manuscript would benefit from discussing the elements that impose selection pressure in the M63 culture condition.

      Sorry for the missing information on M63, which contains 22 mM glucose as the only carbon source. The medium composition was added in the Materials and Methods, as follows.

      (L334-337) “In brief, the medium contains 62 mM dipotassium hydrogen phosphate, 39 mM potassium dihydrogen phosphate, 15 mM ammonium sulfate, 15 μM thiamine hydrochloride, 1.8 μM Iron (II) sulfate, 0.2 mM magnesium sulfate, and 22 mM glucose.”

      (15) The RNA-Seq datasets for Evo strains seemed equally heterogenous, just as their mutation profiles. However, the missing element in their analysis is the directionality of gene expression changes. I wonder what sort of biological significance can be derived from grouping expression changes based solely on DEGs, without considering the magnitude and the direction (up- and down-regulation) of changes? RNA-seq analysis in its current form seems superficial to derive biologically meaningful interpretations.

      We agree that most studies often discuss the direction of transcriptional changes. The present study aimed to capture a global view of the magnitude of transcriptome reorganization. Thus, the analyses focused on the overall features, such as the abundance of DEGs, instead of the details of the changes, e.g., the up- and down-regulation of DEGs. The biological meaning of the DEGs' overview was how significantly the genome-wide gene expression fluctuated, which might be short of an in-depth view of individual gene expression. The following sentence was added to indicate the limitation of the present analysis.

      (L199-202) “Instead of an in-depth survey on the directional changes of the DEGs, the abundance and functional enrichment of DEGs were investigated to achieve an overview of how significant the genome-wide fluctuation in gene expression, which ignored the details of individual genes.”

      Minor remarks

      (1) L41: brackets italicized "(E. coli)".

      It was fixed as follows.

      (L40) “… Escherichia coli (E. coli) cells …”

      (2) Figure S1. It is suggested that the x-axis of ALE monitor be set to 'generations' or 'cumulative generations', rather than 'days'.

      Thank you for the suggestion. Fig. S1 describes the experimental procedure, so the" day" was used. Fig. S2 presents the evolutionary process, so the "generation" was used, as you recommended here.

      (3) I found it difficult to digest through L61-64. Although it is not within the job scope of reviewers to comment on the language style, I must point out that the manuscript would benefit from professional language editing services.

      Sorry for the unclear writing. The sentences were revised as follows.

      (L60-64) “Previous studies have identified conserved features in transcriptome reorganization, despite significant disruption to gene expression patterns resulting from either genome reduction or experimental evolution 27-29. The findings indicated that experimental evolution might reinstate growth rates that have been disrupted by genome reduction to maintain homeostasis in growing cells.”

      (4) Duplicate references (No. 21, 42).

      Sorry for the mistake. It was fixed (leaving ref. 21).

      (5) Inconsistency in L105-106: "from two to 13".

      "From two to 13" was adopted from the language editing. It was changed as follows.

      (L119) “… from 2 to 13, …”

      Response to Reviewer #3:

      Thank you for reviewing our manuscript and for the helpful comments, which improved the strength of the manuscript. The recommended statistical analyses essentially supported the statement in the manuscript were performed, and those supposed to be the new results in the scope of further studies remained unconducted. The changes made in the revision were highlighted. We sincerely hope the revised manuscript and the following point-to-point response meet your concerns. You will find all your suggested statistic tests in our future work that report an extensive study on the experimental evolution of an assortment of reduced genomes.

      (1) Line 106 - "As 36 out of 45 SNPs were nonsynonymous, the mutated genes might benefit the fitness increase." This argument can be strengthened. For example, the null expectation of nonsynonymous SNPs should be discussed. Is the number of observed nonsynonymous SNPs significantly higher than the expected one?

      (2) Line 107 - "In addition, the abundance of mutations was unlikely to be related to the magnitude of fitness increase." Instead of just listing examples, a regression analysis can be added.

      Yes, it's significant. Random mutations lead to ~33% of nonsynonymous SNP in a rough estimation. Additionally, the regression is unreliable because there's no statistical significance between the number of mutations and the magnitude of fitness increase. Accordingly, the corresponding sentences were revised with additional statistical tests.

      (L123-129) “As 36 out of 45 SNPs were nonsynonymous, which was highly significant compared to random mutations (p < 0.01), the mutated genes might benefit fitness increase. In addition, the abundance of mutations was unlikely to be related to the magnitude of fitness increase. There was no significant correlation between the number of mutations and the growth rate in a statistical view (p > 0.1). Even from an individual close-up viewpoint, the abundance of mutations poorly explained the fitness increase.”

      (3) Line 114 - "They seemed highly related to essentiality, as 11 out of 49 mutated genes were essential (Table S3)." Here, the information mentioned in line 153 ("the ratio of essential to all genes (302 out of 3,290) in the reduced genome.") can be used. Then a statistical test for a contingency table can be used.

      (4) Line 117 - "the high frequency of the mutations fixed in the essential genes suggested the mutation in essentiality for fitness increase was the evolutionary strategy for reduced genome." What is the expected number of fixed mutations in essential genes vs non-essential genes? Is the observed number statistically significantly higher?

      Sorry for the improper and insufficient information on the essential genes. Yes, it's significant. The statistical test was additionally performed. The corresponding part was revised as follows.

      (L134-146) “They seemed highly related to essentiality7 (https://shigen.nig.ac.jp/ecoli/pec/genes.jsp), as 11 out of 49 mutated genes were essential (Table S3). Although the essentiality of genes might differ between the wild-type and reduced genomes, the experimentally determined 302 essential genes in the wild-type E. coli strain were used for the analysis, of which 286 were annotated in the reduced genome. The ratio of essential genes in the mutated genes was significantly higher than in the total genes (286 out of 3290 genes, Chi-square test p=0.008). As the essential genes were determined according to the growth35 and were known to be more conserved than nonessential ones 36,37, the high frequency of the mutations fixed in the essential genes was highly intriguing and reasonable. The large variety of genome mutations fixed in the independent lineages might result from a highly rugged fitness landscape 38. Nevertheless, it was unclear whether and how these mutations were explicitly responsible for recovering the growth rate of the reduced genome.”

      (5) The authors mentioned no overlapping in the single mutation level. Is that statistically significant? The authors can bring up what the no-overlap probability is given that there are in total x number of fixed mutations observed (either theory or simulation is good).

      Sorry, we feel confused about this comment. It's unclear to us why it needs to be statistically simulated. Firstly, the mutations were experimentally observed. The result that no overlapped mutated genes were detected was an Experimental Fact but not a Computational Prediction. We feel sorry that you may over-interpret our finding as an evolutionary rule, which always requires testing its reliability statistically. We didn't conclude that the evolution had no overlapped mutations. Secondly, considering 65 times random mutations happened to a ~3.9 Mb sequence, the statistical test was meaningful only if the experimental results found the overlapped mutations. It is interesting how often the random mutations cause the overlapped mutations in parallel evolutionary lineages while increasing the evolutionary lineages, which seems to be out of the scope of the present study. We are happy to include the analysis in our ongoing study on the experimental evolution of reduced genomes.

      (6) The authors mentioned no overlapping in the single mutation level. How about at the genetic level? Some fixed mutations occur in the same coding gene. Is there any gene with a significantly enriched number of mutations?

      No mutations were fixed in the same gene of biological function, as shown in Table S3. If we say the coding region, the only exception is the IS sequences, well known as the transposable sequences without genetic function. The following description was added.

      (L119-122) “The number of mutations largely varied among the nine Evos, from 2 to 13, and no common mutation was detected in all nine Evos (Table S3). A 1,199-bp deletion of insH was frequently found in the Evos (Table S3, highlighted), which well agreed with its function as a transposable sequence.”

      (7) Line 151-156- It seems like the authors argue that the expression level differences can be just explained by the percentage of essential genes that get fixed mutations. One further step for the argument could be to compare the expression level of essential genes with vs without fixed mutations. Also, the authors can compare the expression level of non-essential genes with vs without fixed mutations. And the authors can report whether the differences in expression level became insignificant after the control of the essentiality.

      It's our pleasure that the essentiality intrigued you. Thank you for the analytical suggestion, which is exciting and valuable for our studies. As only 11 essential genes were detected here and "Mutation in essentiality" was an indication but not the conclusion of the present study, we would like to apply the recommended analysis to the datasets of our ongoing study to demonstrate this statement. Thank you again for your fruitful analytical advice.

      (8) Line 169- "The number of DEGs partially overlapped among the Evos declined significantly along with the increased lineages of Evos (Figure 4B). " There is a lack of statistical significance here while the word "significantly" is used. One statistical test that can be done is to use re-sampling/simulation to generate a null expectation of the overlapping numbers given the DEGs for each Evo line and the total number of genes in the genome. The observed number can then be compared to the distribution of the simulated numbers.

      Sorry for the inappropriate usage of the term. Whether it's statistically significant didn't matter here. The word "significant" was deleted as follows.

      (L205--206) “The number of DEGs partially overlapped among the Evos declined along with the increased lineages of Evos (Fig. 4B).”

      (9) Line 177-179- "In comparison,1,226 DEGs were induced by genome reduction. The common DEGs 177 of genome reduction and evolution varied from 168 to 540, fewer than half of the DEGs 178 responsible for genome reduction in all Evos" Is the overlapping number significantly lower than the expectation? The hypergeometric test can be used for testing the overlap between two gene sets.

      There's no expectation for how many DEGs were reasonable. Not all numbers experimentally obtained are required to be statistically meaningful, which is commonly essential in computational and data science.

      (10) The authors should give more information about the ancestral line used at the beginning of experimental evolution. I guess it is one of the KHK collection lines, but I can not find more details. There are many genome-reduced lines. Why is this certain one picked?

      Sorry for the insufficient information on the reduced genome used for the experimental evolution. The following descriptions were added in the Results and the Materials and Methods, respectively.

      (L75-79) “The E. coli strain carrying a reduced genome, derived from the wild-type genome W3110, showed a significant decline in its growth rate in the minimal medium compared to the wild-type strain 13. To improve the genome reduction-mediated decreased growth rate, the serial transfer of the genome-reduced strain was performed with multiple dilution rates to keep the bacterial growth within the exponential phase (Fig. S1), as described 17,20.”

      (L331-334) “The reduced genome has been constructed by multiple deletions of large genomic fragments 58, which led to an approximately 21% smaller size than its parent wild-type genome W3110.”

      (11) How was the saturated density in Figure 1 actually determined? In particular, the fitness assay of growth curves is 48h. But it seems like the experimental evolution is done for ~24 h cycles. If the Evos never experienced a situation like a stationary phase between 24-48h, and if the author reported the saturated density 48 h in Figure 1, the explanation of the lower saturated density can be just relaxation from selection and may have nothing to do with the increase of growth rate.

      Sorry for the unclear description. Yes, you are right. The evolution was performed within the exponential growth phase (keeping cell division constant), which means the Evos never experienced the stationary phase (saturation). The final evolved populations were subjected to the growth assay to obtain the entire growth curves for calculating the growth rate and the saturated density. Whether the decreased saturated density and the increased growth rate were in a trade-off relationship remained unclear. The corresponding paragraph was revised as follows.

      (L100-115) “Intriguingly, a positive correlation was observed between the growth fitness and the carrying capacity of the Evos (Fig. 1D). It was somehow consistent with the positive correlations between the colony growth rate and the colony size of a genome-reduced strain 11 and between the growth rates and the saturated population size of an assortment of genome reduced strains 13. Nevertheless, the negative correlation between growth rate and carrying capacity, known as the r/K selection30,31 was often observed as the trade-off relationship between r and K in the evolution and ecology studies 32 33,34. As the r/K trade-off was proposed to balance the cellular metabolism that resulted from the cost of enzymes involved 34, the deleted genes might play a role in maintaining the metabolism balance for the r/K correlation. On the other hand, the experimental evolution (i.e., serial transfer) was strictly performed within the exponential growth phase; thus, the evolutionary selection was supposed to be driven by the growth rate without selective pressure to maintain the carrying capacity. The declined carrying capacity might have been its neutral "drift" but not a trade-off to the growth rate. Independent and parallel experimental evolution of the reduced genomes selecting either r or K is required to clarify the actual mechanisms.”

      (12) What annotation of essentiality was used in this paper? In particular, the essentiality can be different in the reduced genome background compared to the WT background.

      Sorry for the unclear definition of the essential genes. They are strictly limited to the 302 essential genes experimentally determined in the wild-type E coli strain. Detailed information can be found at the following website: https://shigen.nig.ac.jp/ecoli/pec/genes.jsp. We agree that the essentiality could differ between the WT and reduced genomes. Identifying the essential genes in the reduced genome will be an exhaustedly vast work. The information on the essential genes defined in the present study was added as follows.

      (L134-139) “They seemed highly related to essentiality7 (https://shigen.nig.ac.jp/ecoli/pec/genes.jsp), as 11 out of 49 mutated genes were essential (Table S3). Although the essentiality of genes might differ between the wild-type and reduced genomes, the experimentally determined 302 essential genes in the wild-type E. coli strain were used for the analysis, of which 286 were annotated in the reduced genome.”

      (13) The fixed mutations in essential genes are probably not rarely observed in experimental evolution. For example, fixed mutations related to RNA polymerase can be frequently seen when evolving to stressful environments. I think the author can discuss this more and elaborate more on whether they think these mutations in essential genes are important in adaptation or not.

      Thank you for your careful reading and the suggestion. As you mentioned, we noticed that the mutations in RNA polymerases (rpoA, rpoB, and rpoD) were identified in three Evos. As they were not shared across all Evos, we didn't discuss the contribution of these mutations to evolution. Instead of the individual functions of the mutated essential gene functions, we focused on the enriched gene functions related to the transcriptome reorganization because they were the common feature observed across all Evos and linked to the whole metabolic or regulatory pathways, which are supposed to be more biologically reasonable and interpretable. The following sentence was added to clarify our thinking.

      (L268-273) “In particular, mutations in the essential genes, such as RNA polymerases (rpoA, rpoB, rpoD) identified in three Evos (Table S3), were supposed to participate in the global regulation for improved growth. Nevertheless, the considerable variation in the fixed mutations without overlaps among the nine Evos (Table 1) implied no common mutagenetic strategy for the evolutionary improvement of growth fitness.”

      (14) In experimental evolution to new environments, several previous literature also show that long-term experimental evolution in transcriptome is not consistent or even reverts the short-term response; short-term responses were just rather considered as an emergency plan. They seem to echo what the authors found in this manuscript. I think the author can refer to some of those studies more and make a more throughput discussion on short-term vs long-term responses in evolution.

      Thank you for the advice. It's unclear to us what the short-term and long-term responses referred to mentioned in this comment. The "Response" is usually used as the phenotypic or transcriptional changes within a few hours after environmental fluctuation, generally non-genetic (no mutation). In comparison, long-term or short-term experimental "Evolution" is associated with genetic changes (mutations). Concerning the Evolution (not the Response), the long-term experimental evolution (>10,000 generations) was performed only with the wild-type genome, and the short-term experimental evolution (500~2,000 generations) was more often conducted with both wild-type and reduced genomes, to our knowledge. Previous landmark studies have intensively discussed comparing the wild-type and reduced genomes. Our study was restricted to the reduced genome, which was constructed differently from those reduced genomes used in the reported studies. The experimental evolution of the reduced genomes has been performed in the presence of additional additives, e.g., antibiotics, alternative carbon sources, etc. That is, neither the genomic backgrounds nor the evolutionary conditions were comparable. Comparison of nothing common seems to be unproductive. We sincerely hope the recommended topics can be applied in our future work.

      Some minor suggestions

      • Figures S3 & Table S2 need an explanation of the abbreviations of gene categories.

      Sorry for the missing information. Figure S3 and Table S3 were revised to include the names of gene categories. The figure was pasted followingly for a quick reference.

      Author response image 3.

      • I hope the authors can re-consider the title; "Diversity for commonality" does not make much sense to me. For example, it can be simply just "Diversity and commonality."

      Thank you for the suggestion. The title was simplified as follows.

      (L1) “Experimental evolution for the recovery of growth loss due to genome reduction.”

      • It is not easy for me to locate and distinguish the RNA-seq vs DNA-seq files in DRA013662 at DDBJ. Could you make some notes on what RNA-seq actually are, vs what DNA-seq files actually are?

      Sorry for the mistakes in the DRA number of DNA-seq. DNA-seq and RNA-seq were deposited separately with the accession IDs of DRA013661 and DRA013662, respectively. The following correction was made in the revision.

      (L382-383) “The raw datasets of DNA-seq were deposited in the DDBJ Sequence Read Archive under the accession number DRA013661.”

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In their manuscript, Yu et al. describe the chemotactic gradient formation for CCL5 bound to - i.e. released from - glycosaminoglycans. The authors provide evidence for phase separation as the driving mechanism behind chemotactic gradient formation. A conclusion towards a general principle behind the finding cannot be drawn since the work focuses on one chemokine only, which is particularly prone to glycan-induced oligomerisation.

      Strengths:

      The principle of phase separation as a driving force behind and thus as an analytical tool for investigating protein interactions with strongly charged biomolecules was originally introduced for protein-nucleic acid interactions. Yu et al. have applied this in their work for the first time for chemokine-heparan sulfate interactions. This opens a novel way to investigate chemokine-glycosaminoglycan interactions in general.

      Response: Thanks for the encouragement of the reviewer.

      Weaknesses:

      As mentioned above, one of the weaknesses of the current work is the exemplification of the phase separation principle by applying it only to CCL5-heparan sulfate interactions. CCL5 is known to form higher oligomers/aggregates in the presence of glycosaminoglycans, much more than other chemokines. It would therefore have been very interesting to see, if similar results in vitro, in situ, and in vivo could have been obtained by other chemokines of the same class (e.g. CCL2) or another class (like CXCL8).

      Response: We share the reviewer’s opinion that to investigate more molecules/cytokines that interact with heparan sulfate in the system should be of interesting. We expect that researchers in the field will adapt the concept to continue the studies on additional molecules. Nevertheless, our earlier study has demonstrated that bFGF was enriched to its receptor and triggered signaling transduction through phase separation with heparan sulfate (PMID: 35236856; doi: 10.1038/s41467-022-28765-z), which supports the concept that phase separation with heparan sulfate on the cell surface may be a common mechanism for heparan sulfate binding proteins. The comment of the reviewer that phase separation is related to oligomerization is demonstrated in (Figure 1—figure supplement 2C and D), showing that the more easily aggregated mutant, A22K-CCL5, does not undergo phase separation.

      In addition, the authors have used variously labelled CCL5 (like with the organic dye Cy3 or with EGFP) for various reasons (detection and immobilisation). In the view of this reviewer, it would have been necessary to show that all the labelled chemokines yield identical/similar molecular characteristics as the unlabelled wildtype chemokine (such as heparan sulfate binding and chemotaxis). It is well known that labelling proteins either by chemical tags or by fusion to GFPs can lead to manifestly different molecular and functional characteristics.

      Response: We agree with the reviewer that labeling may lead to altered property of a protein, thus, we have compared chemotactic activity of CCL5 and CCL5-EGFP (Figure 2—figure supplement 1). To further verify this, we performed additional experiment to compare chemotactic activity between CCL5 and Cy3-CCL5 (see Author response image 1). For the convenience of readers, we have combined the original Figure 2—figure supplement 1 with the new data (Figure R1), which replaced original Figure 2—figure supplement 1.

      Author response image 1.

      Chemotactic function of CCL5-EGFP and CCL5-Cy3. Cy3-Labeled CCL5 has similar activity as CCL5, 50 nM CCL5 or CCL5-Cy3 were added to the lower chamber of the Transwell. THP-1 cells were added to upper chambers. Data are mean ± s.d. n=3. P values were determined by unpaired two-tailed t-tests. NS, Not Significant.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Although the study by Xiaolin Yu et al is largely limited to in vitro data, the results of this study convincingly improve our current understanding of leukocyte migration.

      (1) The conclusions of the paper are mostly supported by the data although some clarification is warranted concerning the exact CCL5 forms (without or with a fluorescent label or His-tag) and amounts/concentrations that were used in the individual experiments. This is important since it is known that modification of CCL5 at the N-terminus affects the interactions of CCL5 with the GPCRs CCR1, CCR3, and CCR5 and random labeling using monosuccinimidyl esters (as done by the authors with Cy-3) is targeting lysines. Since lysines are important for the GAG-binding properties of CCL5, knowledge of the number and location of the Cy-3 labels on CCL5 is important information for the interpretation of the experimental results with the fluorescently labeled CCL5. Was the His-tag attached to the N- or C-terminus of CCL5? Indicate this for each individual experiment and consider/discuss also potential effects of the modifications on CCL5 in the results and discussion sections.

      Response: We agree with the reviewer that labeling may lead to altered property of a protein, thus, we have compared chemotactic activity of CCL5 and CCL5-EGFP (Figure 2—figure supplement 1). To further verify this, we performed additional experiment to compare chemotactic activity between CCL5 and Cy3-CCL5 (see Author response image 1). For the convenience of readers, we have combined the original Figure 2—figure supplement 1 with the new data (Author response image 1), which replaced original Figure 2—figure supplement 1.

      The His-tag is attached to the C-terminus of CCL5, in consideration of the potential impact on the N-terminus.

      (2) In general, the authors appear to use high concentrations of CCL5 in their experiments. The reason for this is not clear. Is it because of the effects of the labels on the activity of the protein? In most biological tests (e.g. chemotaxis assays), unmodified CCL5 is active already at low nM concentrations.

      Response: We agree with the reviewer that the CCL5 concentrations used in our experiments were higher than reported chemotaxis assays and also higher than physiological levels in normal human plasma. In fact, we have performed experiments with lower concentration of CCL5, where the effect of LLPS was not seen though the chemotactic activity of the cytokine was detected. Thus, LLPS-associated chemotactic activity may represent a scenario of acute inflammatory condition when the inflammatory cytokines can increase significantly.

      (3) For the statistical analyses of the results, the authors use t-tests. Was it confirmed that data follow a normal distribution prior to using the t-test? If not a non-parametric test should be used and it may affect the conclusions of some experiments.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for pointing out this issue. As shown in Author response table 1, The Shapiro-Wilk normality test showed that only two control groups (CCL5 and 44AANA47-CCL5+CHO K1) in Figure 3 did not conform to the normal distribution. The error was caused by using microculture to count and calculate when there were very few cells in the microculture. For these two groups, we re-counted 100 μL culture medium to calculate the number of cells. The results were consistent with the positive distribution and significantly different from the experimental group (Author response image 3). The original data for the number of cells chemoattractant by 500 nM CCL5 was revised from 0, 247, 247 to 247, 123, 370 and 500 nM 44AANA47 +CHO-K1 was revised from 1111, 1111, 98 to 740, 494, 617. The revised data does not affect the conclusion.

      Author response table 1.

      Table R1 Shapiro-Wilk test results of statistical data in the manuscript

      Author response image 3.

      Quantification of THP-1collected from the lower chamber. Data are mean ± s.d. n=3. P values were determined by unpaired two-tailed t-tests.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1:

      See the weaknesses section of the Public Review. In addition, the authors should discuss the X-ray structure of CCL5 in complex with a heparin disaccharide in comparison with their docked structure of CCL5 and a heparin tetrasaccharide.

      Response: Our study, in fact, is strongly influenced by the report (Shaw, Johnson et al., 2004) that heparin disaccharide interaction with CCL5, which is highlighted in the text (page5, line100-102).

      Reviewer #2:

      (1) Clearly indicate in the results section and figure legends (also for the supplementary figures) which form and concentration of CCL5 is used.

      Response: The relevant missing information is indicated across the manuscript.

      (2) Clearly indicate which GAG was used. Was it heparin or heparan sulfate and what was the length (e.g. average molecular mass if known) or source (company?)?

      Response: Relevant information is added in the section “Materials and Methods.

      (3) Line 181: What do you mean exactly with "tiny amounts"?

      Response: “tiny amounts” means 400 transfected cells. This is described in the section of Materials and Methods. It is now also indicated in the text and legend to the figure.

      (4) Lines 216-217: This is a very general statement without a link to the presented data. No combination of chemokines is used, in vivo testing is limited (and I agree very difficult). You may consider deleting this sentence (certainly as an opening sentence for the Discussion).

      Response: We appreciate very much for the thoughtful suggestion of the reviewer. This sentence is deleted in the revised manuscript.

      (5) Why was 5h used for the in vitro chemotaxis assay? This is extremely long for an assay with THP-1 cells.

      Response: We apologize for the unclear description. The 5 hr includes 1 hr pre- incubation of CCL5 with the cells enable to form phase separation. After transferring the cells into the upper chamber, the actual chemotactic assay was 4 hr. This is clarified in the Materials and Methods section and the legend to each figure.

      (6) Define "Sec" in Sec-CCL5-EGFP and "Dil" in the legend of Figure 4.

      Response: The Sec-CCL5-EGFP should be “CCL5-EGFP’’, which has now been corrected. Dil is a cell membrane red fluorescent probe, which is now defined.

      (7) Why are different cell concentrations used in the experiment described in Figure 5?

      Response: The samples were from three volunteers who exhibited substantially different concentrations of cells in the blood. The experiment was designed using same amount of blood, so we did not normalize the number of the cell used for the experiment. Regardless of the difference in cell numbers, all three samples showed the same trend.

      (8) Check the text for some typos: examples are on line 83 "ratio of CCL5"; line 142 "established cell lines"; line 196 "peripheral blood mononuclear cells"; line 224 "to mediate"; line 226 "bind"; line 247 "to form a gradient"; line 248 "of the glycocalyx"; line 343 and 346 "tetrasaccharide"; line 409-410 "wild-type"; line 543 "on the surface of CHO-K1 and CHO-677"; line 568 "white".

      Response: Thanks for the careful reading. The typo errors are corrected and Manuscript was carefully read by colleagues.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer 1 (Public Review):

      1. The name of the new method "inter-haplotype distance" is more confusing than helpful, as the haplotype information is not critical for implementing this method. First, the mutation spectrum is aggregated genome-wide regardless of the haplotypes where the mutations are found. Second, the only critical haplotype information is that at the focal site (i.e., the locus that is tested for association): individuals are aggregated together when they belong to the same "haplotype group" at the focal site. However, for the classification step, haplotype information is not really necessary: individuals can be grouped based on their genotypes at the given locus (e.g., AA vs AB). As the authors mentioned, this method can be potentially applied to other mutation datasets, where haplotype information may well be unavailable. I hope the authors can reconsider the name and remove the term "haplotype" (perhaps something like "inter-genotype distance"?) to avoid giving the wrong impression that haplotype information is critical for applying this method.

      We appreciate the reviewer's concern about the name of our method. The reviewer is correct that haplotype information is not critical for our method to work, and as a result we've decided to simply rename the approach to "aggregate mutation spectrum distance" (abbreviated AMSD). For simplicity, we refer to the method as IHD throughout our responses to reviewers, but the revised manuscript now refers to AMSD.

      1. The biggest advantage of the IHD method over QTL mapping is alleviation of the multiple testing burden, as one comparison tests for any changes in the mutation spectrum, including simultaneous, small changes in the relative abundance of multiple mutation types. Based on this, the authors claim that IHD is more powerful to detect a mutator allele that affects multiple mutation types. Although logically plausible, it is unclear under what quantitative conditions IHD can actually have greater power over QTL. It will be helpful to support this claim by providing some simulation results.

      This comment prompted us to do a more detailed comparison of IHD vs. QTL power under conditions that are more similar to those observed in the BXD cohort. While preparing the original manuscript, we assumed that IHD might have greater power than QTL mapping in a population like the BXDs because some recombinant inbred lines have accumulated many more germline mutations than others (see Figure 1 in Sasani et al. 2022, Nature). In a quantitative trait locus scan (say, for the fraction of C>A mutations in each line) each BXD's mutation data would be weighted equally, even if a variable number of mutations was used to generate the phenotype point estimate in each line.

      To address this, we performed a new series of simulations in which the average number of mutations per haplotype was allowed to vary. At the low end, some BXDs accumulated as few as 100 total germline mutations, while others have accumulated as many as 2,000. Thus, instead of simulating a mean number of mutations on each simulated haplotype, we allowed the mean number of mutations per haplotype to vary from N to 20N. By simulating a variable count of mutations on each haplotype, we could more easily test the benefits of comparing aggregate, rather than individual, mutation spectra between BXDs.

      In these updated simulations, we find that IHD routinely outperforms QTL mapping under a range of parameter choices (see Author Response image 1). Since IHD aggregates the mutation spectra of all haplotypes with either B or D alleles at each locus in the genome, the method is much less sensitive to individual haplotypes with low mutation counts. We include a mention of these updated simulations on lines 135-138 and describe the updated simulations in greater detail in the Materials and Methods (lines 705-715).

      Author response image 1.

      Power of IHD and QTL mapping on simulated haplotypes with variable counts of mutations. We simulated germline mutations on the specified number of haplotypes (as described in the manuscript) but allowed the total number of mutations per haplotype to vary by a factor of 20.

      1. The flip side of this advantage of IHD is that, when a significant association is detected, it is not immediately clear which mutation type is driving the signal. Related to this, it is unclear how the authors reached the point that "...the C>A mutator phenotype associated with the locus on chromosome 6", when they only detected significant IHD signal at rs46276051 (on Chr6), when conditioning on D genotypes at the rs27509845 (on Chr4) and no significant signal for any 1-mer mutation type by traditional mapping. The authors need to explain how they deduced that C>A mutation is the major source of the signal. In addition, beyond C>A mutations, can mutation types other than C>A contribute to the IHD signal at rs46276051? More generally, I hope the authors can provide some guidelines on how to narrow a significant IHD signal to specific candidate mutation type(s) affected, which will make the method more useful to other researchers.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out this gap in our logic. We omitted specific instructions for narrowing down an IHD signal to specific mutation type(s) for a few reasons. First, this can be addressed using mutational signature analysis methods that are in widespread use. For example, upon identifying one or more candidate mutator loci, we can enter the mutation spectra of samples with each possible mutator genotype into a program (e.g., SigProfilerExtractor) to determine which combinations of mutation types occur proportionally more often in the genomes that harbor mutators (see Figure 3c in our manuscript). A second approach for narrowing down an IHD signal, highlighted in Figure 3a (and now described in the text of the Results section at lines 256-261), is to simply test which mutation type proportion(s) differ significantly between groups of samples with and without a candidate mutator (for example, with a Chi-square test of independence for each mutation type).

      Although this second approach incurs a multiple testing burden, the burden is offset somewhat by using IHD to identify mutator loci, rather than performing association tests for every possible mutation type to begin with. Although Figure 3a only shows the significant difference in C>A fraction among BXDs with different mutator locus genotypes, Figure 3-figure supplement 1 shows the complete set of 1-mer spectrum comparisons. It is possible that this second approach would not prove very useful in the case of a mutator with a “flat” signature (i.e., a mutator that slightly perturbs the rates of many different mutation types), but in our case it clearly shows which mutation type is affected.

      1. To account for differential relatedness between the inbred lines, the authors regressed the cosine distance between the two aggregate mutation spectra on the genome-wide genetic similarity and took the residual as the adjusted test metric. What is the value of the slope from this regression? If significantly non-zero, this would support a polygenic architecture of the mutation spectrum phenotype, which could be interesting. If not, is this adjustment really necessary? In addition, is the intercept assumed to be zero for this regression, and does such an assumption matter? I would appreciate seeing a supplemental figure on this regression.

      The reviewer raises a good question. We find that the slope of the "distance vs. genetic similarity" regression is significantly non-zero, though the slope estimate itself is small. A plot of cosine distance vs. genome-wide genetic similarity (using all BXDs) is shown below in Author response image 2:

      Author response image 2.

      Relationship between cosine distance and genetic similarity in the BXDs. As described in the Materials and Methods, we computed two values at each marker in the BXDs: 1) the cosine distance between the aggregate mutation spectra of BXDs with either B or D genotypes at the marker, and 2) the correlation between genome-wide D allele frequencies in BXDs with either B or D genotypes at the marker. We then regressed these two values across all genome-wide markers.

      This result indicates that if two groups of BXDs (one with D genotypes and one with B genotypes at a given locus) are more genetically similar, their mutation spectra are also more similar. Since the regression slope estimate is significantly non-zero (p < 2.2e-16), we believe that it's still worth using residuals as opposed to raw cosine distance values. This result also suggests that there may be a polygenic effect on the mutation spectrum in the BXDs.

      We have also generated a plot showing the cosine distance between the mutation spectra of every possible pair of BXDs, regressed against the genetic similarity between each of those pairs (Author Response image 3). Here, the potential polygenic effects on mutation spectra similarity are perhaps more obvious.

      Author response image 3.

      Pairwise cosine distance between BXD mutation spectra as a function of genetic similarity. We computed two values for every possible pair of n = 117 BXDs: 1) the cosine distance between the samples' individual 1-mer mutation spectra and 2) the correlation coefficient between the samples' genome-wide counts of D alleles.

      Private Comments

      1. It will also be useful to see how the power of IHD and QTL mapping depend on the allele frequency of the mutator allele and the sample size, as mutator alleles are likely rare or semi-rare in natural populations (such as the human de novo mutation dataset that the authors mentioned).

      This is another good suggestion. In general, we'd expect the power of both IHD and QTL mapping to decrease as a function of mutator allele frequency. At the same time, we note that the power of these scans should mostly depend on the absolute number of carriers of the mutator allele and less on its frequency. In the BXD mouse study design, we observe high frequency mutators but also a relatively small sample size of just over 100 individuals. In natural human populations, mutator frequencies might be orders of magnitude smaller, but sample sizes may be orders of magnitude larger, especially as new cohorts of human genomes are routinely being sequenced. So, we expect to have similar power to detect a mutator segregating at, say, 0.5% frequency in a cohort of 20,000 individuals, as we would to detect a mutator segregating at 50% frequency in a dataset of 200 individuals.

      To more formally address the reviewer's concern, we performed a series of simulations in which we simulated a population of 100 haplotypes. We assigned the same average number of mutations to each haplotype but allowed the allele frequency of the mutator allele to vary between 0.1, 0.25, and 0.5. The results of these simulations are shown in Author response image 4 and reveal that AMSD tends to have greater power than QTL mapping at lower mutator allele frequencies. We now mention these simulations in the text at lines 135-138 and include the simulation results in Figure 1-figure supplement 4.

      Author response image 4.

      Power of AMSD and QTL mapping on simulated haplotypes with variable marker allele frequencies. We simulated germline mutations on the specified number of haplotypes (as described in the manuscript), but simulated genotypes at the mutator allele such that "A" alleles were at the specified allele frequency.

      1. In the Methods section of "testing for epistasis between the two mutator loci", it will be helpful to explicitly lay out the model and assumptions in mathematical formulae, in addition to the R scripts. For example, are the two loci considered independent when their effects on mutation rate is multiplicative or additive? Given the R scripts provided, it seems that the two loci are assumed to have multiplicative effects on the mutation rate, and that the mutation count follows a Poisson distribution with mean being the mutation rate times ADJ_AGE (i.e., the mutation opportunity times the number of generations of an inbred line). However, this is not easily understandable for readers who are not familiar with R language. In addition, I hope the authors can be more specific when discussing the epistatic interaction between the two loci by explicitly saying "synergistic effects beyond multiplicative effects on the C>A mutation rate".

      The reviewer raises a good point about the clarity of our descriptions of tests for epistasis. We have now added a more detailed description of these tests in the section of the Materials and Methods beginning at line 875. We have also added a statement to the text at lines 289-291: “the combined effects of D genotypes at both loci exceed the sum of marginal effects of D genotypes at either locus alone.” We hope that this will help clarify the results of our tests for statistical epistasis.

      Reviewer 2 (Public Review):

      1. The main limitation of the approach is that it is difficult to see how it might be applied beyond the context of mutation accumulation experiments using recombinant inbred lines. This is because the signal it detects, and hence its power, is based on the number of extra accumulated mutations linked to (i.e. on the same chromosome as) the mutator allele. In germline mutation studies of wild populations the number of generations involved (and hence the total number of mutations) is typically small, or else the mutator allele becomes unlinked from the mutations it has caused (due to recombination), or is lost from the population altogether (due to chance or perhaps selection against its deleterious consequences).

      The reviewer is correct that as it currently exists, IHD is mostly limited to applications in recombinant inbred lines (RILs) like the BXDs. This is due to the fact that IHD assumes that each diploid sample harbors one of two possible genotypes at a particular locus and ignores the possibility of heterozygous genotypes for simplicity. In natural, outbreeding populations, this assumption will obviously not hold. However, as we plan to further iterate on and improve the IHD method, we hope that it will be applicable to a wider variety of experimental systems in the future. We have added additional caveats about the applicability of our method to other systems in the text at lines 545-550.

      Private Comments

      1. On p. 8, perhaps I've misunderstood but it's not clear in what way the SVs identified were relevant to the samples used in this dataset - were the founder strains assembled? Is there any chance that additional SVs were present, e.g. de novo early in the accumulation line?

      Our description of this structural variation resource could have been clearer. The referenced SVs were identified in Ferraj et al. (2023) by generating high-quality long read assemblies of inbred laboratory mice. Both DBA/2J and C57BL/6J (the founder strains for the BXD resource) were included in the Ferraj et al. SV callset. We have clarified our description of the callset at lines 247-248.

      It is certainly possible that individual BXD lines have accumulated de novo structural variants during inbreeding. However, these "private" SVs are unlikely to produce a strong IHD association signal (via linkage to one of the ~7,000 markers) at either the chromosome 4 or chromosome 6 locus, since we only tested markers that were at approximately 50% D allele frequency among the BXDs.

      1. On p. 13, comparing the IHD and QTL approaches, regarding the advantage of the former in that it detects the combined effect of multiple k-mer mutation types, would it not be straightforward to aggregate counts for different types in a QTL setting as well?

      The mutation spectrum is a multi-dimensional phenotype (6-dimensional if using the 1-mer spectrum, 96-dimensional if using the 3-mer spectrum, etc.). Most QTL mapping methods use linear models to test for associations between genotypes and a 1-dimensional phenotype (e.g., body weight, litter size). In the past, we used QTL mapping to test for associations between genotypes and a single element of the mutation spectrum (e.g., the rate of C>A mutations), but there isn't a straightforward way to aggregate or collapse the mutation spectrum into a 1dimensional phenotype that retains the information contained within the full 1-mer or 3-mer spectrum. For that reason, we developed the "aggregate mutation spectrum" approach, as it preserves information about the complete mutation spectrum in each group of strains.

      The reviewer is correct that we could also aggregate counts of different mutation types to, say, perform a QTL scan for the load of a specific mutational signature. For example, we could first perform standard mutational signature analysis on our dataset and then test for QTLs associated with each signature that is discovered. However, this approach would not solve the second problem that our method is designed to solve: the appropriate weighting of samples based on how many mutations they contain.

      1. pp. 15-16: In the discussion of how you account for relatedness between strains, I found the second explanation (on p. 16) much clearer. It would be interesting to know how much variance was typically accounted for by this regression?

      As shown in the response to Reviewer 1, genotype similarity between genotype groups (i.e., those with either D or B genotypes at a marker) generally explains a small amount of variance in the cosine distance between those groups (R2 ~= 0.007). However, since the slope term in that regression is significantly non-zero, correcting for this relationship should still improve our power relative to using raw cosine distance values that are slightly confounded by this relationship.

      1. Similarly, in the section on Applying the IHD method to the BXDs (pp. 18-19), I think this description was very useful, and some or all of this description of the experiment (and how the DNMs in it arise) could profitably be moved to the introduction.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s feedback about the details of the BXD cohort. Overall, we feel the description of the BXDs in the Introduction (at lines 65-73) is sufficient to introduce the cohort, though we now add some additional detail about variability in BXD inbreeding duration (at lines 89-93) to the Introduction as well, since it is quite relevant to some of the new simulation results presented in the manuscript.

      1. A really minor one, not sure if this is for the journal or the authors, but it would be much better to include both page and line numbers in any version of an article for review. My pdf had neither!

      We apologize for the lack of page/line numbers in the submitted PDF. We have now added line numbers to the revised version of the manuscript.

      Reviewer 3 (Public Review):

      1. Under simulated scenarios, the authors' new IHD method is not appreciably more powerful than conventional QTL mapping methods. While this does not diminish the rigor or novelty of the authors findings, it does temper enthusiasm for the IHD method's potential to uncover new mutators in other populations or datasets. Further, adaptation of this methodology to other datasets, including human trios or multigenerational families, will require some modification, which could present a barrier to broader community uptake. Notably, BXD mice are (mostly) inbred, justifying the authors consideration of just two genotype states at each locus, but this decision prevents out-of-the-box application to outbred populations and human genomic datasets. Lastly, some details of the IHD method are not clearly spelled out in the paper. In particular, it is unclear whether differences in BXD strain relatedness due to the breeding epoch structure are fully accounted for in permutations. The method's name - inter-haplotype distance - is also somewhat misleading, as it seems to imply that de novo mutations are aggregated at the scale of sub-chromosomal haplotype blocks, rather than across the whole genome.

      The reviewer raises very fair concerns. As mentioned in response to a question from Reviewer 1, we performed additional simulation experiments that demonstrate the improved power of IHD (as compared to QTL mapping) in situations where mutation counts are variable across haplotypes or when mutator alleles are present at allele frequencies <50% (see Author response image 2 and 3, as well as new supplements to Figure 1 in the manuscript). However, the reviewer is correct that the IHD method is not applicable to collections of outbred individuals (that is, individuals with both heterozygous and homozygous genotypes), which will limit its current applications to datasets other than recombinant inbred lines. We have added a mention of these limitations to the Results at lines 138-141 and the Discussion at lines 545-550, but plan to iterate on the IHD method and introduce new features that enable its application to other datasets. We have also explicitly stated that we account for breeding epochs in our permutation tests in the Materials and Methods at lines 670-671. Both Reviewer 1 and Reviewer 3 raised concerns about the name of our method, and we have therefore changed “inter-haplotype distance” to “aggregate mutation spectrum distance” throughout the manuscript.

      1. Nominating candidates within the chr6 mutator locus requires an approach for defining a credible interval and excluding/including specific genes within that interval as candidates. Sasani et al. delimit their focal window to 5Mb on either side of the SNP with the most extreme P-value in their IHD scan. This strategy suffers from several weaknesses. First, no justification for using 10 Mb window, as opposed to, e.g., a 5 Mb window or a window size delimited by a specific threshold of P-value drop, is given, rendering the approach rather ad hoc. Second, within their focal 10Mb window, the authors prioritize genes with annotated functions in DNA repair that harbor protein coding variants between the B6 and D2 founder strains. While the logic for focusing on known DNA repair genes is sensible, this locus also houses an appreciable number of genes that are not functionally annotated, but could, conceivably, perform relevant biological roles. These genes should not be excluded outright, especially if they are expressed in the germline. Further, the vast majority of functional SNPs are non-coding, (including the likely causal variant at the chr4 mutator previously identified in the BXD population). Thus, the author's decision to focus most heavily on coding variants is not well-justified. Sasani et al. dedicate considerable speculation in the manuscript to the likely identity of the causal variant, ultimately favoring the conclusion that the causal variant is a predicted deleterious missense variant in Mbd4. However, using a 5Mb window centered on the peak IHD scan SNP, rather than a 10Mb window, Mbd4 would be excluded. Further, SNP functional prediction accuracy is modest [e.g., PMID 28511696], and exclusion of the missense variant in Ogg1 due its benign prediction is potentially premature, especially given the wealth of functional data implicating Ogg1 in C>A mutations in house mice. Finally, the DNA repair gene closest to the peak IHD SNP is Rad18, which the authors largely exclude as a candidate.

      We agree that the use of a 10 Mb window, rather than an empirically derived confidence interval, is a bit arbitrary and ad hoc. To address this concern, we have implemented a bootstrap resampling approach (Visscher et al. 1996, Genetics) to define confidence intervals surrounding IHD peaks. We have added a description of the approach to the Materials and Methods at lines 609-622, but a brief description follows. In each of N trials (here, N = 10,000), we take a bootstrap sample of the BXD phenotype and genotype data with replacement. We then perform an IHD scan on the chromosome of interest using the bootstrap sample and record the position of the marker with the largest cosine distance value (i.e., the "peak" marker). After N trials, we calculate the 90% confidence interval of bootstrapped peak marker locations; in other words, we identify the locations of two genotyped markers, between which 90% of all bootstrap trials produced an IHD peak. We note that bootstrap confidence intervals can exhibit poor "coverage" (a measure of how often the confidence intervals include the "true" QTL location) in QTL mapping studies (see Manichaikul et al. 2006, Genetics), but feel that the bootstrap is more reasonable than simply defining an ad hoc interval around an IHD peak.

      The new 90% confidence interval surrounding the IHD peak on chromosome 6 is larger than the original (ad hoc) 10 Mbp window, now extending from around 95 Mbp to 114 Mbp. Notably, the new empirical confidence interval excludes Mbd4. We have accordingly updated our Results and Discussion sections to acknowledge the fact that Mbd4 no longer resides within the confidence interval surrounding the IHD peak on chromosome 6 and have added additional descriptions of genes that are now implicated by the 90% confidence interval. Given the uncertainties associated with using bootstrap confidence intervals, we have retained a brief discussion of the evidence supporting Mbd4 in the Discussion but focus primarily on Ogg1 as the most plausible candidate.

      The reviewer raises a valid concern about our treatment of non-DNA repair genes within the interval surrounding the peak on chromosome 6. We have added more careful language to the text at lines 219-223 to acknowledge the fact that non-annotated genes in the confidence interval surrounding the chromosome 6 peak may play a role in the epistatic interaction we observed.

      The reviewer also raises a reasonable concern about our discussions of both Mbd4 and Ogg1 as candidate genes in the Discussion. Since Mbd4 does not reside within the new empirical bootstrap confidence interval on chromosome 6 and given the strong prior evidence that Ogg1 is involved in C>A mutator phenotypes (and is in the same gene network as Mutyh), we have reframed the Discussion to focus on Ogg1 as the most plausible candidate gene (see lines 357360).

      Using the GeneNetwork resource, we also more carefully explored the potential effects of noncoding variants on the C>A mutator phenotype we observed on chromosome 6. We have updated the Results at lines 240-246 and the Discussion at line 439-447 to provide more evidence for regulatory variants that may contribute to the C>A mutator phenotype. Specifically, we discovered a number of strong-effect cis-eQTLs for Ogg1 in a number of tissues, at which D genotypes are associated with decreased Ogg1 expression. Given new evidence that the original mutator locus we discovered on chromosome 4 harbors an intronic mobile element insertion that significantly affects Mutyh expression (see Ferraj et al. 2023, Cell Genomics), it is certainly possible that the mutator phenotype associated with genotypes on chromosome 6 may also be mediated by regulatory, rather than coding, variation.

      1. Additionally, some claims in the paper are not well-supported by the author's data. For example, in the Discussion, the authors assert that "multiple mutator alleles have spontaneously arisen during the evolutionary history of inbred laboratory mice" and that "... mutational pressure can cause mutation rates to rise in just a few generations of relaxed selection in captivity". However, these statements are undercut by data in this paper and the authors' prior publication demonstrating that a number of candidate variants are segregating in natural mouse populations. These variants almost certainly did not emerge de novo in laboratory colonies, but were inherited from their wild mouse ancestors. Further, the wild mouse population genomic dataset used by the authors falls far short of comprehensively sampling wild mouse diversity; variants in laboratory populations could derive from unsampled wild populations.

      The reviewer raises a good point. In our previous publication (Sasani et al. 2022, Nature), we hypothesized that Mutyh mutator alleles had arisen in wild, outbreeding populations of Mus musculus, and later became fixed in inbred strains like DBA/2J and C57BL/6J. However, in the current manuscript, we included a statement about mutator alleles "spontaneously arising during the evolutionary history of inbred laboratory mice" to reflect new evidence (from Ferraj et al. 2023, Cell Genomics) that the mutator allele we originally identified in Mutyh may not be wild derived after all. Instead, Ferraj et al. suggest that the C>A mutator phenotype we originally identified is caused by an intronic mobile element insertion (MEI) that is present in DBA/2J and a handful of other inbred laboratory strains. Although this MEI may have originally occurred in a wild population of mice, we wanted to acknowledge the possibility that both the original Mutyh mutator allele, as well as the new mutator allele(s) we discovered in this manuscript, could have arisen during the production and inbreeding of inbred laboratory lines. We have also added language to the Discussion at lines 325-327 to acknowledge that the 67 wild mice we analyzed do not comprise a comprehensive picture of the genetic diversity present in wild-derived samples.

      We have added additional language to the Discussion at lines 349-357 in which we acknowledge that the chromosome 6 mutator allele might have originated in either laboratory or wild mice and elaborate on the possibility that mutator alleles with deleterious fitness consequences may be more likely to persist in inbred laboratory colonies.

      1. Finally, the implications of a discovering a mutator whose expression is potentially conditional on the genotype at a second locus are not raised in the Discussion. While not a weakness per se, this omission is perceived to be a missed opportunity to emphasize what, to this reviewer, is one of the most exciting impacts of this work. The potential background dependence of mutator expression could partially shelter it from the action of selection, allowing the allele persist in populations. This finding bears on theoretical models of mutation rate evolution and may have important implications for efforts to map additional mutator loci. It seems unfortunate to not elevate these points.

      We agree and have added additional discussion of the possibility that the C>A mutator phenotypes in the BXDs are a result of interactions between the expression of two DNA repair genes in the same base-excision network to the Discussion section at lines 447-449.

      Private comments

      1. The criteria used to determine or specify haplotype size are not specified in the manuscript. I mention this above but reiterate here as this was a big point of confusion for me when reading the paper. Haplotype length is important consideration for overall power and for proper extension of this method to other systems/populations.

      We may not have been clear enough in our description of our method, and as suggested by Reviewer 1, the name "inter-haplotype distance" may also have been a source of confusion. At a given marker, we compute the aggregate mutation spectrum in BXDs with either B or D genotypes using all genome-wide de novo mutations observed in those BXDs. Since the BXDs were inbred for many generations, we expect that almost all de novo germline mutations observed in an RIL are in near-perfect linkage with the informative genotypes used for distance scans. Thus, the "haplotypes" used in the inter-haplotype distance scans are essentially the lengths of entire genomes.

      1. Results, first paragraph, final sentence. I found the language here confusing. I don't understand how one can compute the cosine distance at single markers, as stated. I'm assuming cosine distance is computed from variants residing on haplotypes delimited by some defined window surrounding the focal marker?

      As discussed above, we aggregate all genome-wide de novo mutations in each group of BXDs at a given marker, rather than only considering DNMs within a particular window surrounding the marker. The approach is discussed in greater detail in the caption of Figure 1.

      1. Nominating candidates for the chr6 locus, Table 1. It would be worth confirming that the three prioritized candidates (Setmar, Ogg1, and Mbd4) all show germline expression.

      Using the Mouse Genome Informatics online resource, we confirmed that all prioritized candidate genes (now including Setmar and Ogg1, but not Mbd4) are expressed in the male and female gonads, and mention this in the Results at lines 228 and 233-234.

      1. Does the chr6 peak on the C>A LOD plot (Figure 2- figure supplement 1) overlap the same peak identified in the IHD scan? And, does this peak rise to significance when using alpha = 0.05? Given that the goal of these QTL scans is to identify loci that interact with the C>A mutator on chr4, it is reasonable to hypothesize that the mutation impact of epistatic loci will also be restricted to C>A mutations. Therefore, I am not fully convinced that the conservative alpha = 0.05/7 threshold is necessary.

      The chromosome 6 peak in Figure 2-figure supplement 1 does, in fact, overlap the peak marker we identified on chromosome 6 using IHD. One reason we decided to use a more conservative alpha of (0.05 / 7) is that we wanted these results to be analogous to the ones we performed in a previous paper (Sasani et al. 2022, Nature), in which we first identified the mutator locus on chromosome 4. However, the C>A peak does not rise to genome-wide significance if we use a less conservative alpha value of 0.05 (see Author response image 5). As discussed in our response to Reviewer 1, we find that QTL mapping is not as powerful as IHD when haplotypes have accumulated variable numbers of germline mutations (as in the BXDs), which likely explains the fact that the peak on chromosome 6 is not genome-wide significant using QTL mapping.

      Author response image 5.

      QTL scan for the fraction of C>A mutations in BXDs harboring D alleles at the locus near Myth QTL scan was performed at a genome-wide significance alpha of 0.05, rather than 0.05/7.

      1. Is there significant LD between the IHD peaks on chr6 and chr4 across the BXD? If so, it could suggest that the signal is driven by cryptic population structure that is not fully accounted for in the author's regression based approach. If not, this point may merit an explicit mention in the text as an additional validation for the authenticity of the chr6 mutator finding.

      This is a good question. We used the scikit-allel Python package to calculate linkage disequilibrium (LD) between all pairs of genotyped markers in the BXD cohort, and found that the two peak loci (on chromosomes 4 and 6) exhibit weak LD (r2 = 4e-5). We have added a mention of this to the main text of the Results at lines 212-213. That being said, we do not think the chromosome 6 mutator association (or the apparent epistasis between the alleles on chromosomes 4 and 6) could be driven by cryptic population structure. Unlike in human GWAS and other association studies in natural populations, there is no heterogeneity in the environmental exposures experienced by different BXD subpopulations. In humans, population structure can create spurious associations (e.g., between height and variants that are in LD and are most common in Northern Europe), but this requires the existence of a phenotypic gradient caused by genetic or environmental heterogeneity that is not likely to exist in the context of inbred laboratory mice that are all the progeny of the same two founder strains.

      1. Discussion, last sentence of the "Possible causal alleles..." section: I don't understand how the absence of the Mariner-family domain leads the authors to this conclusion. Setmar is involved in NHEJ, which to my knowledge is not a repair process that is expected to have a specific C>A mutation bias. I think this is grounds enough for ruling out its potential contributions, in favor of focusing on other candidates, (e.g., Mbd4 and Ogg1).

      The reviewer raises a good point. Our main reason for mentioning the absence of the Marinerfamily domain is that even if NHEJ were responsible for the C>A mutator phenotype, it likely wouldn't be possible for Setmar to participate in NHEJ without the domain. However, the reviewer is correct that NHEJ is not expected to cause a C>A mutation bias, and we have added a mention of this to the text as well at lines 379-382.

      1. Discussion, second to last paragraph of section "Mbd4 may buffer...": The authors speculate that reduced activity of Mbd4 could modulate rates of apoptosis in response to DNA damage. This leads to the prediction that mice with mutator alleles at both Mutyh and Mbd4 should exhibit higher overall mutation rates compared to mice with other genotypes. This possibility could be tested with the authors' data.

      The reviewer raises a good question. As mentioned above, however, we implemented a new approach to calculate confidence intervals surrounding distance peaks and found that this empirical approach (rather than the ad hoc 10-Mbp window approach we used previously) excluded Mbd4 from the credible interval. Although we still mention Mbd4 as a possible candidate (since it still resides within the 10 Mbp window), we have refactored the Discussion section to focus primarily on the evidence for Ogg1 as a candidate gene on chromosome 6.

      In any case, we do not observe that mice with mutator alleles at both the chromosome 4 and chromosome 6 loci have higher overall mutation rates compared to mice with other genotype combinations. This may not be terribly surprising, however, since C>A mutations only comprise about 10% of all possible mutations. Thus, given the variance in other 1-mer mutation counts, even a substantial increase in the C>A mutation rate might not have a detectable effect on the overall mutation rate. Indeed, in our original paper describing the Mutyh mutator allele (Sasani et al. 2022, Nature), we did not identify any QTL for the overall mutation rate in the BXDs and found that mice with the chromosome 4 mutator allele only exhibited a 1.11X increase in their overall mutation rates relative to mice without the mutator allele.

      1. Methods, "Accounting for BXD population structure": An "epoch-aware" permutation strategy is described here, but it is not clear when (and whether) this strategy is used to determine significance of IHD P-values.

      We have added a more explicit mention of this to the Methods section at lines 670-671, as we do, in fact, use the epoch-aware permutation strategy when calculating empirical distance thresholds.

      1. The simulation scheme employed for power calculations is highly specific to the BXD population. This is not a weakness, and perfectly appropriate to the study population used here. However, it does limit the transferability of the power analyses presented in this manuscript to other populations. This limitation may merit an explicit cautionary mention to readers who may aspire to port the IHD method over to their study system.

      This is true. Our simulation strategy is relatively simple and makes a number of assumptions about the simulated population of haplotypes (allele frequencies normally distributed around 0.5, expected rates of each mutation type, etc.). In response to concerns from Reviewer 1, we performed an updated series of simulations in which we varied some of these parameters (mutator allele frequencies, mean numbers of mutations on haplotypes, etc.). However, we have added a mention of the simulation approach's limitations and specificity to the BXDs to the text at lines 545-550.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Yun et al. examined the molecular and neuronal underpinnings of changes in Drosophila female reproductive behaviors in response to social cues. Specifically, the authors measure the ejaculate-holding period, which is the amount of time females retain male ejaculate after mating (typically 90 min in flies). They find that female fruit flies, Drosophila melanogaster, display shorter holding periods in the presence of a native male or male-associated cues, including 2-Methyltetracosane (2MC) and 7-Tricosene (7-T). They further show that 2MC functions through Or47b olfactory receptor neurons (ORNs) and the Or47b channel, while 7-T functions through ppk23 expressing neurons. Interestingly, their data also indicates that two other olfactory ligands for Or47b (methyl laurate and palmitoleic acid) do not have the same effects on the ejaculate-holding period. By performing a series of behavioral and imaging experiments, the authors reveal that an increase in cAMP activity in pC1 neurons is required for this shortening of the ejaculate-holding period and may be involved in the likelihood of remating. This work lays the foundation for future studies on sexual plasticity in female Drosophila.

      The conclusions of this paper are mostly supported by the data, but aspects of the lines used for individual pC1 subtypes and visual contributions as well as the statistical analysis need to be clarified.

      (1) The pC1 subtypes (a - e) are delineated based on their morphology and connectivity. While the morphology of these neurons is distinct, they do share a resemblance that can be difficult to discern depending on the imaging performed. Additionally, genetic lines attempting to label individual neurons can easily be contaminated by low-level expression in off-target neurons in the brain or ventral nerve cord (VNC), which could contribute to behavioral changes following optogenetic manipulations. In Figures 5C - D, the authors generated and used new lines for labeling pC1a and pC1b+c. The line for pC1b+c was imaged as part of another recent study (https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.2310841121). However, similar additional images of the pC1a line (i.e. 40x magnification and VNC expression) would be helpful in order to validate its specificity.

      We have included the high-resolution images of the expression of the pC1a-split-Gal4 driver in the brain and the VNC in the new figures S6A and S6B.

      (2) The author's experiments examining olfactory and gustatory contributions to the holding period were well controlled and described. However, the experiments in Figure 1D examining visual contributions were not sufficiently convincing as the line used (w1118) has previously been shown to be visually impaired (Wehner et al., 1969; Kalmus 1948). Using another wild-type line would have improved the authors' claims.

      It is evident that w1118 flies are visually impaired and are able to receive a limited amount of visual information in dim red light. Nevertheless, they are able to exhibit MIES phenotypes, which further supports the dispensability of visual information in MIES. In a 2024 study, Doubovetzky et al. (1) found that MIES in ninaB mutant females, which have defects in visual sensation, was not altered. This further corroborates our assertion that vision is likely to be of lesser importance than olfaction in MIES.

      (3) When comparisons between more than 2 groups are shown as in Figures 1E, 3D, and 5E, the comparisons being made were not clear. Adding in the results of a nonparametric multiple comparisons test would help for the interpretation of these results.

      We have revised figures 1E, 3D, 5E and the accompanying legends as suggested.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The work by Yun et al. explores an important question related to post-copulatory sexual selection and sperm competition: Can females actively influence the outcome of insemination by a particular male by modulating the storage and ejection of transferred sperm in response to contextual sensory stimuli? The present work is exemplary for how the Drosophila model can give detailed insight into the basic mechanism of sexual plasticity, addressing the underlying neuronal circuits on a genetic, molecular, and cellular level.

      Using the Drosophila model, the authors show that the presence of other males or mated females after mating shortens the ejaculate-holding period (EHP) of a female, i.e. the time she takes until she ejects the mating plug and unstored sperm. Through a series of thorough and systematic experiments involving the manipulation of olfactory and chemo-gustatory neurons and genes in combination with exposure to defined pheromones, they uncover two pheromones and their sensory cells for this behavior. Exposure to the male-specific pheromone 2MC shortens EHP via female Or47b olfactory neurons, and the contact pheromone 7-T, present in males and on mated females, does so via ppk23 expressing gustatory foreleg neurons. Both compounds increase cAMP levels in a specific subset of central brain receptivity circuit neurons, the pC1b,c neurons. By employing an optogenetically controlled adenyl cyclase, the authors show that increased cAMP levels in pC1b and c neurons increase their excitability upon male pheromone exposure, decrease female EHP, and increase the remating rate. This provides convincing evidence for the role of pC1b,c neurons in integrating information about the social environment and mediating not only virgin but also mated female post-copulatory mate choice.

      Understanding context and state-dependent sexual behavior is of fundamental interest. Mate behavior is highly context-dependent. In animals subjected to sperm competition, the complexities of optimal mate choice have attracted a long history of sophisticated modelling in the framework of game theory. These models are in stark contrast to how little we understand so far about the biological and neurophysiological mechanisms of how females implement post-copulatory or so-called "cryptic" mate choice and bias sperm usage when mating multiple times.

      The strength of the paper is decrypting "cryptic" mate choice, i.e. the clear identification of physiological mechanisms and proximal causes for female post-copulatory mate choice. The discovery of peripheral chemosensory nodes and neurophysiological mechanisms in central circuit nodes will provide a fruitful starting point to fully map the circuits for female receptivity and mate choice during the whole gamut of female life history.

      We appreciate the positive response to our work.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewing Editor (Recommendations For The Authors):

      While appreciating the quality of the work the reviewers had a few key concerns that would greatly improve the manuscript. These are:

      (1) In some cases the specific statistical analyses are not clear. Could the authors please clarify what comparisons were made and the specific tests used?

      We have clarified the comparisons made in the multiple comparison analysis and specified the tests used in figures 1E, 3D, 5E.

      (2) Could the authors please include data that verify the expression patterns of their new reagent for pC1a, which will be useful for the community?

      Figure S6 was revised to include the expression of the pC1a-split-Gal4 gene in the brain (Fig. S6A) and the VNC (Fig. S6B).

      (3) A figure summarising their findings in the context of known circuitry will be useful.

      A new Figure 7 has been prepared, which provides a summary of our findings.

      (4) The SAG data are interesting. Do the authors wish to consider moving it to the main text or removing it if too preliminary?

      The supplementary figure 10 and related discussions in the discussion section have been removed.

      In the revised version of this manuscript, we present new evidence that the Or47b gene is required for 2MC-induced cAMP elevation in pC1 neurons, but not for 7T-induced one (see Fig. 5F). This observation supports that Or47b is a receptor for 2MC.

      The following paragraph was inserted at line 248 to provide a detailed description of the new findings: "To further test the role of Or47b in 2MC detection, we generated Or47b-deficient females with pC1 neurons expressing the CRE-luciferase reporter. Females with one copy of the wild-type Or47b allele, which served as the control group, showed robust CRE-luciferase reporter activity in response to either 2MC or 7-T. In contrast, Or47b-deficient females showed robust CRE-luciferase activity in response to to 7-T, but little activity in response to 2MC. This observation suggests that the odorant receptor Or47b plays an essential role in the selective detection of 2MC (Fig. 5F).”

      In addition, the following sentence was inserted at line 308 in the discussion section: “In this study, we provide compelling evidence that 2MC induces cAMP elevation in pC1 neurons and EHP shortening via both the Or47b receptor and Or47b ORNs, suggesting that 2MC functions as an odorant ligand for Or47b.”

      Relative CRE-luciferase reporter activity of pC1 neurons in females of the indicated genotypes, incubated with a piece of filter paper perfumed with solvent vehicle control or the indicated pheromones immediately after mating. The CRE-luciferase reporter activity of pC1 neurons of Or47b-deficient females (Or47b2/2 or Or47b3/3) was observed to increase in response to 7-T but not to 2MC. To calculate the relative luciferase activity, the average luminescence unit values of the female incubated with the vehicle are set to 100%. Mann-Whitney Test (n.s. p > 0.05; **p < 0.01; ***p < 0.001; ****p < 0.0001). Gray circles indicate the relative luciferase activity (%) of individual females, and the mean ± SEM of data is presented.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) There was a discrepancy between the text and the figures. Based on the asterisks above the data in Figure S5A, the data supports only 150 ng of 7-T shortening the ejaculation holding period. However, the text states that (line 190) "150 or 375 ng of 7-T significantly shortened EHP." It would be helpful if the authors clarified this discrepancy.

      The sentence has been revised and now reads as follows: ‘150 ng of 7-T significantly shortened EHP’.

      (2) Based on the current organization of the text, it was not clear how 2MC was identified and its concentrations were known to be physiologically relevant. It would be helpful if the authors could expand on this in lines 178 - 179.

      The following sentences were inserted into the revised version of the manuscript at line 178: The EHP was therefore measured in females incubated in a small mating chamber containing a piece of filter paper perfumed with male CHCs, including 2-methylhexacosane, 2-methyldocosane, 5-methyltricosane, 7-methyltricosane, 10Z-heneicosene, 9Z-heneicosene, and 2MC at various concentrations (not shown). Among these, 2MC at 750 ng was the only one that significantly reduced EHP (Fig. 3A; Fig. S4). 2MC was mainly found in males, but not in virgin females (30). Notably, it is present in D. melanogaster, D. simulans, D. sechellia, and D. erecta, but not in D. yakuba (30, 60).

      (3) The inset pie chart image illustrating MIES in Figure 1A was difficult to interpret. It would be helpful if the authors used a different method for representing this (i.e. a timeline).

      Figure 1A was revised as suggested.

      (4) In lines 121 - 122, the authors state that the females are exposed to "actively courting naive wild type Canton S males." This was difficult to understand and might be improved by removing "actively courting."

      Revised as suggested.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Summary figure

      The story is quite comprehensive and contains a lot of detail regarding the interaction of signaling pathways, internal state, and sensory stimuli. I believe a schematic summary figure bringing together all findings could be very helpful and would make it much easier to understand the discussion!

      Figure 7 has been prepared, which provides a summary of the findings and an explanation of the current working model.

      (2) Figure S10/effect on SAG activation of EHP

      At the moment, the quite interesting and relevant result that SAG activation shortens EHP shown in Figure S10 is only referred to in the discussion. Maybe move this to the results and give it a bit more attention? Actually, I believe this is a very exciting finding that could also be the basis for some more interesting speculations about physiological relevance. Since SAG is silenced upon seminal fluid/sex peptide exposure after mating, a mating with failed SAG silencing (i.e. unusually high post-mating SAG activity) could indicate to the female that there was low or failed sex peptide/seminal fluid transfer. In such a case it would be probably advantageous for the female to decrease EHP and quickly remate, as females need the "beneficial" effects of seminal fluid on ovulation and physiology adaptation. SAG could therefore represent another arm of sensing male quality- here not via external pheromones, but internally, via sensing male sex peptide levels.

      If this is a bit preliminary and rather suited to start a new study, Figure S10 could also be removed from the current manuscript.

      Figure S10 and associated text were removed in the revised version of the manuscript.

      (3) PhotoAC experiments in pC1b,c: the authors find that raising cAMP levels in pC1b,c leads to a decrease in EHP. They argue that increased cAMP levels lead to higher excitability of pC1b,c. This implies that the activity of pC1b,c promotes mating plug ejection. I assume the authors have also tried activating pC1b,c directly by optogenetic cation channels? What is the outcome of this? If different from elevating cAMP levels: why so?

      We employed CsChrimson, a red light-sensitive channelrhodopsin, to investigate the effect of optogenetic activation of each pC1 subset on EHP. Optogenetic activation of pC1a, pC1d, or pC1e had little effect on EHP; however, optogenetic activation of pC1b, c significantly increased EHP. This observation was puzzling because optogenetic silencing of the same neurons also increased EHP. In this experiment, females expressing CsChrimson were exposed to red light for the entire period of EHP measurement. Therefore, we suspect that prolonged activation of pC1b and pC1c neurons depleted their neurotransmitter pool, resulting in a silencing effect, but this requires further testing.

      Author response image 1.

      The prolonged optogenetic activation of pC1b, c neurons increases EHP, mimicking silencing of pC1b, c neurons. Females of the indicated genotypes were cultured on food with or without all-trans-retinal (ATR). The ΔEHP is calculated by subtracting the mean of the reference EHP of females cultured in control ATR- food from the EHP of individual females in comparison. The female genotypes are as follows: (A) 71G01-GAL4/UAS-CsChrimson, (B) pC1a-split-Gal4/UAS-CsChrimson, (C) pC1b,c-split-Gal4/UAS-CsChrimson, (D) pC1d-split-Gal4/UAS-CsChrimson, and (E) pC1e-split-Gal4/UAS-CsChrimson. Gray circles indicate the ΔEHP of individual females, and the mean ± SEM of data is presented. Mann-Whitney Test (n.s. p > 0.05; *p <0.05; ****p < 0.0001). Numbers below the horizontal bar represent the mean of the EHP differences between the indicated treatments.

      (4) Text edits

      In general, the manuscript is very well-written, clear, and easy to follow. I recommend small edits of the text and correction of typos in some places:

      l.92: "Drosophila females seem to signal the social sexual context through sperm ejection." This sentence could give the impression that the main function of sperm ejection was to signal to conspecifics. I recommend reformulating to leave it open if ejected sperm is a signal or rather a simple cue. e.g. :"There is evidence that Drosophila females detect the social sexual context through sperm ejected by other females."

      Thanks for the good suggestion. It has been revised as suggested. In addition, we have also made additional changes to the text to correct typos.

      l.97: "transcriptional factor" > "transcription factor"

      Revised as suggested. See lines 77, 98, and 201.

      l.101: "There are Dsx positive 14 pC1 neurons in each brain hemisphere of the brain," > "There are 14 Dsx positive pC1 neurons in each brain hemisphere,"

      Revised as suggested, it now reads " There are 14 Dsx-positive pC1 neurons in each hemisphere of the brain, ...".

      l.160: ", even up to 1440 ng" > ", even when applied at concentrations as high as 1440 ng"

      Revised as suggested.

      l.168: "females with male oenocytes significantly shortens EHP" >"females with male oenocytes significantly shorten EHP"

      Revised as suggested.

      l.181: "it was restored when Orco expression is reinstated" >"it was restored when Orco expression was reinstated"

      Revised as suggested. See line 186.

      l.196: "MIES is almost completely abolished" >"MIES was almost completely abolished"

      Revised as suggested. See line 201.

      l.202: "a sexually dimorphic transcriptional factor gene" >"the sexually determination transcription factor gene" or "the sex specifically spliced transcription factor gene". The gene itself is not dimorphic!

      Revised as suggested, lines 208-210 now read "The same study found that Dh44 receptor neurons involved in EHP regulation also express doublesex (dsx), which encodes sexually dimorphic transcription factors."

      l.211: "to silenced" > "to silence"

      Revised as suggested. See line 216.

      l.229: "females that selectively produce the CRE-Luciferase reporter gene" >"females that selectively express CRE-Luciferase reporter"

      Revised as suggested. See line 234.

      l.271: "neurons. expedite" > delete dot

      Revised as suggested. See line 284.

      l.287: "Furthermore, our study has uncovered the conserved neural circuitry that processes male courtship cues and governs mating decisions play an important role in regulating this behavior." > grammar: "our study has uncovered that the conserved neural circuitry that processes male courtship cues and governs mating decisions plays an important role in regulating this behavior." Also: the meaning of "conserved" is not fully clear to me here: conserved in regards to other Drosophila species? Or do the authors mean: general functional similarity with mouse sexual circuitry?

      The sentence (lines 299-301) has been revised for clarity to read "In addition, our study has revealed that the neural circuit that processes male courtship cues and controls mating decisions plays an important role in regulating this behavior. This fly circuit has recently been proposed to be homologous to VMHvl in the mouse brain (45, 46).”

      l.311: "lipid drolet" > "lipid droplets"

      Revised as suggested. See line 325.

      l.316 and in several instances in the following, including Figure 5 caption (l.723) : "cAMP activity" > "cAMP levels" or "increased cAMP levels"

      Revised as suggested.

      l.323: "in hemibrain" > ", as seen in the hemibrain connectome dataset"

      Revised as suggested. See line 337.

      l.326: "increased cAMP levels causes pC1b,c neurons" > "increased cAMP levels cause pC1b,c neurons"

      Revised as suggested. See line 340.

      l.329: "removement" > "removal" or "ejection"

      Revised as suggested, it now reads "the removal of the mating plug". See line 343.

      l. 330: "This observation well aligns" > "The observation aligns well"

      Revised as suggested. See line 345.

      l. 398: Behavior assays: It would be good to describe how mating plug ejection was identified- by eye? Under the microscope/UV light?

      The following sentence has been added to the behavioral assays section at lines 425-426: The sperm ejection scene, in which the female expels a white sac containing sperm and the mating plug through the vulva, has been directly observed by eye in recorded video footage.

      l.685, Figure legend 2: "thermal activation" > "thermogenetic activation"

      Revised as suggested. See line 430.

      Reference:

      (1) Doubovetzky, N., Kohlmeier, P., Bal, S., & Billeter, J. C. (2023). Cryptic female choice in response to male pheromones in Drosophila melanogaster. bioRxiv, 2023-12.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This valuable study uses a novel experimental design to elegantly demonstrate how we exploit stimulus structure to overcome working memory capacity limits. While the behavioural evidence is convincing, the neural evidence is incomplete, as it only provides partial support for the proposed information compression mechanism. This study will be of interest to cognitive neuroscientists studying structure learning and memory.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Huang and Luo investigated whether regularities between stimulus features can be exploited to facilitate the encoding of each set of stimuli in visual working memory, improving performance. They recorded both behavioural and neural (EEG) data from human participants during a sequential delayed response task involving three items with two properties: location and colour. In the key condition ('aligned trajectory'), the distance between locations of successively presented stimuli was identical to their 'distance' in colour space, permitting a compression strategy of encoding only the location and colour of the first stimulus and the relative distance of the second and third stimulus (as opposed to remembering 3 locations and 3 colours, this would only require remembering 1 location, 1 colour, and 2 distances). Participants recalled the location and colour of each item after a delay.

      Consistent with the compression account, participants' location and colour recall errors were correlated and were overall lower compared to a non-compressible condition ('misaligned trajectory'). Multivariate analysis of the neural data permitted decoding of the locations and colours during encoding. Crucially, the relative distance could also be decoded - a necessary ingredient for the compression strategy.

      Strengths:

      The main strength of this study is a novel experimental design that elegantly demonstrates how we exploit stimulus structure to overcome working memory capacity limits. The behavioural results are robust and support the main hypothesis of compressed encoding across a number of analyses. The simple and well-controlled design is suited to neuroimaging studies and paves the way for investigating the neural basis of how environmental structure is detected and represented in memory. Prior studies on this topic have primarily studied behaviour only (e.g., Brady & Tenenbaum, 2013).

      Thanks for the positive comments and excellent summary.

      Weaknesses:

      The main weakness of the study is that the EEG results do not make a clear case for compression or demonstrate its neural basis. If the main aim of this strategy is to improve memory maintenance, it seems that it should be employed during the encoding phase. From then on, the neural representation in memory should be in the compressed format. The only positive evidence for this occurs in the late encoding phase (the re-activation of decoding of the distance between items 1 and 2, Fig. 5A), but the link to behaviour seems fairly weak (p=0.068).

      Thanks for raising this important concern. The reviewer is correct that in principle subjects should employ the compression strategy during the encoding phase when sequence stimuli are presented, yet our results show that the 1-2 trajectory could only be decoded during the late encoding phase.

      Meanwhile, subjects could not get enough information to form the compressed strategy for the location and color sequences until the appearance of the 3rd item. Specifically, based on the first two items, the 1st and 2nd item, they only learn whether the 1st-2nd trajectories are congruent between location and color features. However, they could not predict whether it would also apply to the incoming 2nd-3rd trajectory. This is exactly what we found in neural decoding results. The 1st-2nd trajectory could be decoded after the 2nd item presentation, and the 2nd-3rd trajectory appears after the 3rd item onset. Most critically, the 1st-2nd trajectory is reactivated after the 3rd item but only for alignment condition, implicating formation of the full-sequence compression strategy wherein the previously formed 1st-2nd trajectory is reactivated to be connected to the 2nd-3rd trajectory.

      Regarding the difference between higher- and lower-correlation groups, previously we used the time window based on the overall 2nd-3rd neural reactivations, which might not be sensitive to reactivation strength. We now re-chose the time window based on the higher-correlation group (bootstrap test, p = 0.037, two sides).

      Results have been updated (Figure 5; Results, Page 16). Interpretations about the formation of compression strategy during encoding phase have been added to Results (Page 15-16) and Discussion (Page 18).

      Stronger evidence would be showing decoding of the compressed code during memory maintenance or recall, but this is not presented. On the contrary, during location recall (after the majority of memory maintenance is already over), colour decoding re-emerges, but in the un-compressed item-by-item code (Fig. 4B). The authors suggest that compression is consolidated at this point, but its utility at this late stage is not obvious.

      Thank you for the important question we apologize for omitting previously - neural evidence for the compressive account.

      The reason we did not perform neural decoding during maintenance is that previous EEG/MEG studies including our own failed to reveal robust and sustained time-resolved memory decoding during this period. This is posited to arise from “activity-silent” WM states, wherein memories are not necessarily retained in sustained firing but silently stored within connection weights of WM networks (Stokes, Trends Cogn. Sci., 2015; Rose, Curr Dir Psychol Sci, 2020). Our previous work showed that by transiently perturbing the 'activity-silent' WM using a retrocue or neutral impulse, memories could be reactivated and robustly decoded from neural activities (Huang et al., eLife, 2021). However, due to the lack of transient events during retention in the current design, we do not expect robust decoding results during maintenance. As shown below (AB), this is indeed what we have observed, i.e., no robust neural decoding of trajectories during retention.

      We further used alpha-band (8-11 Hz) neural activities, which have been shown to carry WM information (de Vries et al., Trends Cogn. Sci, 2020; Foster et al., Curr. Biol, 2016; Fukuda et al., J. Neurophysiol, 2016; Sutterer et al., PLOS Biol., 2019) to perform decoding analysis of compression trajectories during maintenance. As shown below, the alpha-band decoding results are indeed stronger than raw activities. Importantly, as shown below (CD), the aligned condition indeed showed significant and long-lasting decoding of compression trajectories (1st-2nd, 2nd-3rd) during retention, while the misaligned condition only showed decoding at the beginning (GH), which might be due to the non-specific offset response of the 3rd item. The results, although not as clear as those during encoding and recalling periods, support the reviewer’s hypothesis that the compressive strategy, if exploited, would be demonstrated during both encoding and maintenance periods. New results and related discussion have been added (Page 16, Supplementary Figure 4).

      With regards to the observed item-by-item color replay during location recall, the reviewer was concerned that this was not consistent with the compressive account, given the lack of trajectory decoding.

      First, item sequences stored in compressive formats need to be converted to sequences during serial recall. In other words, even though color and location sequences are retained in a compressive format (i.e., common 1st-2nd, 2nd-3rd trajectories) throughout the encoding and retention phases, they should be transferred to two sequences as outputs. This is exactly why we performed decoding analysis on individual color and location items rather than trajectories.

      Second and most importantly, we observed serial replay of color sequences when recalling locations. In our view, these results constitute strong evidence for common structure, since the spontaneous color replay during location recall for aligned condition highlights the close bound between color and location sequences stored in WM. In fact, item-by-item serial replay has been well acknowledged as a critical neural index of cognitive maps, not only for spatial navigation but also for higher-order tasks (e.g., Liu et al., Cell, 2019; Liu et al., Science, 2021). Therefore, spontaneous color sequence replay during location sequence recall supports their shared underlying cognitive map.

      Finally, spontaneous serial replay is also correlated with the reactivation of compressive trajectories during encoding (Supplementary Figure 3). This further indicates that serial replay during recalling is associated with memory reorganization formed during encoding.

      Taken together, we posit that memories need to be converted to sequences as outputs, which leads to serial reactivations during recalling. Importantly, the observed spontaneous replay of color sequences for the aligned condition provides strong evidence supporting the associations between color and location sequences in WM.

      We have now added relevant interpretations and discussions (Page 11&13).

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this study, the authors wanted to test if using a shared relational structure by a sequence of colors in locations can be leveraged to reorganize and compress information.

      Strength:

      They applied machine learning to EEG data to decode the neural mechanism of reinstatement of visual stimuli at recall. They were able to show that when the location of colors is congruent with the semantically expected location (for example, green is closer to blue-green than purple) the related color information is reinstated at the probed location. This reinstatement was not present when the location and color were not semantically congruent (meaning that x displacement in color ring location did not displace colors in the color space to the same extent) and semantic knowledge of color relationship could not be used for reducing the working memory load or to benefit encoding and retrieval in short term memory.

      Weakness:

      The experiment and results did not address any reorganization of information or neural mechanism of working memory (that would be during the gap between encoding and retrieval).

      We apologize for not presenting clear neural evidence for memory reorganization, particularly neural decoding during WM maintenance and retrieval, in the previous version. As below, we explain why the findings provide converging neural evidence for WM reorganization based on a shared cognitive map.

      First, during the encoding phase when location and color sequences are serially presented, our results reveal reactivation of the 1st-2nd trajectories upon the onset of the 3rd item when location and color sequences are aligned with each other. The reactivation of 1st-2nd trajectory right after the emergence of 2nd-3rd trajectory for aligned but not for misaligned sequences strongly supports WM reorganization, since only stimulus sequences that could be compressed based on shared trajectories (aligned condition) show the co-occurrence of 1st-2nd and 2nd-3rd trajectories. Moreover, the relevance of 1st-2nd reactivation to behavioral measurements of color-location reorganization (i.e., behavioral trajectory correlation, Figure 5D) further indicates its link to WM reorganization.

      Second, the reason we originally did not perform neural decoding during maintenance is that previous EEG/MEG studies including our own failed to reveal robust and sustained time-resolved memory decoding during this period. This is posited to arise from “activity-silent” WM states, wherein memories are not necessarily retained in sustained firing but silently stored within connection weights of WM networks (Stokes, Trends Cogn. Sci., 2015; Wolff et al., Nat. Neurosci, 2017; Rose et al., Curr Dir Psychol Sci, 2020). Our previous work showed that by transiently perturbing the 'activity-silent' WM using a retrocue or neutral impulse, memories could be reactivated and robustly decoded from neural activities (Huang et al., eLife, 2021). However, due to the lack of transient events during retention in the current design, we do not expect robust decoding results during maintenance. As shown in Supplementary Figure 4(AB), this is indeed what we have observed, i.e., no robust neural decoding of trajectories during retention.

      We then used alpha-band (8-11 Hz) neural activities, which have been found to carry WM information (de Vries et al., Trends Cogn. Sci, 2020; Foster et al., Curr. Biol, 2016; Fukuda et al., J. Neurophysiol, 2016; Sutterer et al., PLOS Biol., 2019) to perform decoding analysis of compression trajectories during maintenance. As shown below, the alpha-band decoding results are indeed stronger than raw activities. Importantly, as shown in Supplementary Figure 4(CD), the aligned condition indeed showed significant and long-lasting decoding of compression trajectories (1st-2nd, 2nd-3rd) during retention, while the misaligned condition only showed decoding at the beginning (GH), which might be due to the non-specific offset response of the 3rd item. The results, although not as clear as those during encoding and recalling periods, thus also support WM reorganization.

      Finally, during the recalling period, we observed automatic serial replay of color sequences when recalling locations. In our view, these results constitute strong evidence for common structure, since the spontaneous color replay during location recall for aligned condition highlights the close bound between color and location sequences stored in WM. In fact, item-by-item serial replay has been well acknowledged as a critical neural index of cognitive maps, not only for spatial navigation but also for higher-order tasks (e.g., Liu et al., Cell, 2019; Liu et al., Science, 2021). Therefore, spontaneous replay of color sequence during location recall supports their shared underlying cognitive map. Moreover, the spontaneous serial replay is correlated with the reactivation of compressive trajectories during encoding (Supplementary Figure 3). This further indicates that serial replay during recalling is associated with memory reorganization formed during encoding.

      Taken together, we have added updated results about the maintenance period (Page 16, Supplementary Figure 4) and included clarifications and interpretations about why the findings during the encoding and retrieval periods support the WM reorganization view (Page 15-16).

      There was also a lack of evidence to rule out that the current observation can be addressed by schematic abstraction instead of the utilization of a cognitive map.

      The likely impact of the initial submission of the study would be in the utility of the methods that would be helpful for studying a sequence of stimuli at recall. The paper was discussed in a narrow and focused context, referring to limited studies on cognitive maps and replay. The bigger picture and long history of studying encoding and retrieval of schema-congruent and schema-incongruent events is not discussed.

      We agree with the reviewer that cognitive map referred here could be understood as schematic abstraction. Cognitive map refers to the internal representation of spatial relations in a specific environment (Tolman 1948). Schematic abstraction denotes a more broad range of circumstances, whereby the gist or structure of multiple environments or episodes can be integrated (Bartlett, 1932; Farzanfar et al., Nat. Rev. Neurosci, 2023).

      In other words, schema refers to highly abstract framework of prior knowledge that captures common patterns across related experiences, which does not necessarily occur in a spatial framework as cognitive maps do. Meanwhile, in the current design, we specifically manipulate the consistency of spatial trajectory distance between color and location sequences. Therefore, we would argue that cognitive map is a more conservative and appropriate term to frame our findings.

      Relevant discussions have been added (Page 3&19).

      We apologize for the lack of more generalized discussion and have added schema-related literatures. Thanks for the suggestion.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Do time-frequency-domain data (e.g., alpha-band power) in the delay provide evidence for delay-period decoding of trajectory lengths? This might strengthen the case for compression.

      Thanks for the suggestion. We now performed decoding analysis of the delay period based on alpha-band power. As shown in supplementary figure 4, both the 1st-2nd and 2nd-3rd trajectories could be decoded for the aligned condition.

      Added in supplementary figure 4 and Page 16.  

      (2) Do participants erroneously apply the compression strategy in the misaligned condition? This would not show up in the trajectory error correlation analysis, but might be visible when examining correlations between raw trajectory lengths.

      Thanks for raising this interesting suggestion. To test the hypothesis, we chose a typical misaligned condition where 1st-2nd trajectory distances are same between location and color sequences, while the 2nd-3rd trajectory distances are different between the two features.

      In this case, participants might exploit the compression strategy for the first two items and erroneously apply the strategy to the 3rd item. If so, we would expect better memory performance for the first two items but worse memory for the 3rd item, compared to the rest of misaligned trials. As shown below, the 1st-2nd aligned trials showed marginally significant higher performance than misaligned trials for the first two items (t(32) = 1.907, p = 0.066, Cohen’s d = 0.332) . Unfortunately, we did not find significant worse performance for the 3rd item between the two conditions (t(32) = -0.4847, p = 0.631, Cohen’s d = -0.084). We observed significant interactions between the last two items and the alignment effect (t(32) = 2.082, p = 0.045, Cohen’s d = 0.362), indicating a trend of applying wrong compression strategy to the 3nd item.

      Author response image 1.

      (3a) Some more detail on some of the methods might help readers. For instance, did trajectories always move in a clockwise direction? Could the direction reverse on the third item? If not, did this induce a response bias? Could such a bias possibly account for the trajectory error correlations

      Sorry for the unclear statement. For individual trial, both the color and location features of the three items are randomly selected from nine possible values without any constraint about the directions. That is to say, the trajectories can move in a clockwise or anticlockwise direction, and the direction can also reverse on the third item in some trials. Thus, we think the current design can actually help us to reduce the influence of response bias. Taking a step back, if trajectory error correlations are due to response bias, we should expect consistent significant correlation for all conditions, instead of only observing significant correlation for 1st-2nd and 2nd-3rd trajectories but not for 1st-3rd trajectory and only in aligned trajectory condition but not in misaligned condition. Therefore, we think the trajectory error correlations cannot be simply explained by response bias.

      Details have been added (Page 23).

      (3b) Is the colour wheel always oriented the same way for a participant? If so, given there are only nine colors, it seems possible that colors are mapped to locations and remembered in a location code instead. This does not seem to be a problem in principle for the behavioural findings, but might change the interpretation of what is being decoded from the EEG. If this is a possibility then this might be acknowledged.

      The color wheel is always oriented the same way for each participant. We agree with the reviewer that it is possible that participants tend to map colors to locations and remembered in a location code. We don’t have sufficient evidence to rule out this possibility. One possible way could be running another experiment with varied color wheel during response period. Meanwhile, we would like to point out that the underlying logic of the current design is based on the facts that thinking spatially is intuitive and spatial metaphors like “location” and “distance” is commonly used to describe world, e.g., the well-known mental number line (Dehaene et al., JEP: General, 1993). Therefore, we expected participants to associate or integrate location and color maps based on trajectory distance.

      The reviewer is correct that the color decoding would reflect spatial location rather than the genuine color feature. This is actually the point of the experimental design, whereby two irrelevant features could be possibly combined within a common cognitive map. Without the realignment of the two feature maps defined in space, subjects could not at all form the strategy to compress the two sequences. In other words, decoding of color sequences could be understood as neural representation of a series of corresponding locations along the ring that are independent of the physical locations of the items.

      Interpretations and clarifications have been added (Page 23&26).

      (4) Does the discretisation of the stimulus distribution (to only 9 possible locations) make the compression strategy easier to use? If the features had been continuously distributed across the location/colour circle, would participants still pick up on and use the shared trajectory structure?

      Thanks for the question. Without further data, it’s hard to say whether the discretization of the stimulus distribution would make the compression strategy easier to use or not, compared to continuous distribution. Both outcomes seem possible. On the one hand, discrete stimulus distribution would result in discrete trajectory distribution, which helps participants to realize the common trajectory strategy. On the other hand, discrete stimulus distribution would result in category or label representation, which may weaken the effectiveness of structure compression strategy. We postulate that our findings could be generalized to continuous trajectories in a cognitive map within certain resolution.

      (5a) Minor point: I disagree that avoiding the same points for location and colour for a given item allows them to be independently decoded. I would argue the contrary - this kind of constraint should create a small anti-correlation that in principle could lead to spurious decoding of one variable (although this seems unlikely here).

      We appreciate the concern. As mentioned above, with discrete stimulus distribution (9 possible values for both color and location domains), it is quite possible that a fraction of trials would share same values in location and color. Therefore, the neural decoding for one domain might be confounded by another domain. To dissociate their neural representations, we imposed constraints that color and location could not occupy the same value for a given item.

      We agree that this kind of constraint might create a small anti-correlation, even though it is not observed here. Future studies using continuous stimulus distribution would reduce the correlation or anti-correlation between stimuli.

      (5b) Very minor point: 1,000 permutations for significance testing seems on the low side. Since some of the p-values are close to 0.05 it may be worth running more permutations.

      Thanks for this suggestion. We got similar results using 1000 or 10000 permutations.

      (6) Missing reference: H. H. Li et al., 2021 (line 213) seems not to be on the list of references.

      Sorry for the mistake. Added.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The study aimed to discuss the working memory mechanism, instead, it seems to be focused on the encoding and recall strategies after a short while, I recommend updating the manuscript to refer to the relevant cognitive mechanism.

      There was a strong voice on the effect of using the cognitive map in working memory, without any tests on if indeed a cognitive map was used (for example the novel link between stimuli and how a cognitive map can be used to infer shortcuts). Was the participant required to have any mental map beyond the schema of the shown color ring?

      In the current experiment, to discuss if the effect is driven by utilizing a cognitive map or schematic abstraction of color-relatedness, further analysis is required to possibly assess the effects of schema on neural activity and behavior. Namely,<br /> (1) Was there any reinstatement of schematically congruent (expected) colors that were probed by location 1, at locations 2 and 3 in the MAT condition?

      Thanks for pointing out this possibility. However, we don’t think there will be stable color expectations given location information under the MAT condition. First, as the trajectory distance varied on a trial-by-trial basis, no prior common trajectory knowledge could be used to make inference about the current stimuli in individual trial. Second, the starting points for color and location (1st item) were randomly and independently selected, such that color sequence could not be predicted based on the location sequence for both aligned and misaligned conditions.

      (2) Given that response time can be a behavioral marker of schematic conflict, was the response time faster for congruent than incongruent conditions?

      Thanks for this question. Unfortunately, due to the experimental design, the response time could not be used as a behavioral marker to infer mental conflicts, since participants were not required to respond as fast as possible. Instead, they took their own pace to reproduce sequences without time limit. They could even take a short break before submitting their response to initiate the next trial.

      (3) In case you cannot rule out that utilizing schema is the cognitive mechanism that supports working memory performance (the behavior), please add the classical literature (on the memory of schematically congruent and incongruent events) to the discussion.

      Thanks for this suggestion and we have added relevant literatures now (Page 3&19).

      (4) On page 6, 'common structure in the cognitive map' is the schema, isn't it?

      Correct. Based on our understanding, ‘common structure in the cognitive map’ is a spatial schema.

      (5) In Figure 2 EFG, would you please use a mixed effect model or show evidence that all participants demonstrated a correlation between the location trajectory error and color trajectory error?

      Thanks for the suggestion. We have added the mixed effect model results, which are consistent with Figure 2EFG (AT: 1st-2nd trajectory, β = 0.071, t = 4.215, p < 0.001; 2nd-3rd trajectory, β = 0.077, t = 3.570, p < 0.001; 1st-3rd trajectory, β = 0.019, t = 1.118, p = 0.264; MAT: 1st-2nd trajectory, β = 0.031, t = 1.572, p = 0.116; 2nd-3rd trajectory, β = 0.002, t = 0.128 , p = 0.898; 1st-3rd trajectory, β = -0.017, t = -1.024, p = 0.306).

      In general, doesn't such correlation just show that good participants/trials were good (some did well in the study and some did poorly throughout?)

      We don’t think the trajectory error correlation results just reveal that some participants did well and some participants did poorly. If that is the case, we shouldn’t observe significant correlation in Figure 2D, where we first run correlation for each participant and then test correlation significance at group level. Indeed, trajectory error correlation between color and location domains characterizes the consistent changes between the two domains.

      It is worth to note that the correlation was estimated with signed trajectory errors in color and location domains, which meant that we indeed cared about whether the errors in the two domains were consistently varied in the same direction, i.e., whether longer trajectory memory compared to the actual trajectory in location domain would predict longer trajectory memory in color domain.

      Moreover, as shown in Figure 2EFG, by dividing trials into 4 bins according to the location trajectory error for each participant and pooling the data across participants, we observed 4 clusters along x-axis (location trajectory error). This suggests that participants’ memory performance is rather consistent instead of being extremely good or bad. Besides, if trajectory error correlation is due to different overall memory performance between participants, we should observe significant trajectory error correlations both in AT and MAT conditions, instead of only under AT condition and for 1st-2nd and 2nd-3rd trajectories but not for 1st-3rd trajectory.

      In Figure 2 G, is the marginal error just too big to be sensitive? I am not sure what we are learning here, please clarify.

      Sorry for the confusion. To examine this possibility, we excluded errors which are beyond 2.5 * σ, and still observed non-significant 1st-3rd trajectory error correlation between color and location domains (r = 0.119, p = 0.167).

      The 1st-3rd trajectory showed nonsignificant behavioral correlation and neural representation, which suggests that the current sequential memory task would encourage participants to organize all information by relying more on the adjacent items and their distance. Thus, we think the 1st-3rd trajectory would serve as a control trajectory, which helps us not only exclude other possible explanation (e.g., systematic response bias), but also validate current findings both in behavioral and neural level.

      Results and statements (Page 10-11) added now.

      Author response image 2.

      (6) Regarding the first lines on page 11, did you do qualitative research to know if less information was encoded in congruent conditions?

      The current experimental design is inspired by the mental compression of spatial sequence studies from Dehaene’s lab (Amalric er al., 2017; Roumi et al., 2021), in which they propose that human brain compresses spatial sequence using an abstract language and formalize minimal description length of a sequence as the “language-of-thought complexity.” Based on this evidence, we think less information is required to describe congruent condition compared to incongruent condition. This idea is supported by better memory performance for congruent condition. Unfortunately, we couldn’t manage to quantify how less information was encoded in congruent condition.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      In this work, the authors examine the mechanism of action of MOTS-c and its impact on monocyte-derived macrophages. In the first part of the study, they show that MOTS-c acts as a host defense peptide with direct antibacterial activity. In the second part of the study, the authors aim to demonstrate that MOTS-c influences monocyte differentiation into macrophages via transcriptional regulation.

      Major strengths.

      Methods used to study the bactericidal activity of MOTS-c are appropriate and the results are convincing.

      Major weaknesses.

      Methods used to study the impact on monocyte differentiation are inappropriate and the conclusions are not supported by the data shown. A major issue is the use of the THP-1 cell line, a transformed monocytic line which does not mimic physiological monocyte biology. In particular, THP-1 differentiation is induced by PMA, which is a completely artificial system and conclusions from this approach cannot be generalized to monocyte differentiation. The authors would need to perform this series of experiments using freshly isolated monocytes, either from mouse or human. The read-out used for macrophage differentiation (adherence to plastic) is also not very robust, and the authors would need to analyze other parameters such as cell surface markers. It is also not clear whether MOTS-c could act in a cell-intrinsic fashion, as the authors have exposed cells to exogenous MOTS-c in all their experiments. The authors did not perform complementary experiments using MOTS-c deficient monocytes. The authors have also analyzed the transcriptomic changes induced by MOTS-c exposure in macrophages derived from young or old mice. While the results are potentially interesting, the differences observed seem independent from MOTS-c and mainly related to age, therefore the conclusions from this figure are not clear. Another concern is the reproducibility of the experiments, as the authors do not indicate the number of biological replicates analyzed nor the number of independent experiments performed.

      In this study, we employed the THP-1 cell line as a proof-of-principle to elucidate the existence of a firstin-class mitochondrial-encoded host defense peptide. This peptide is expressed in monocytes and serves dual functions: i) direct targeting of bacteria, and ii) regulation of monocyte differentiation. It is noteworthy that THP-1 cells differentiated by PMA have been widely utilized as a model for monocyte differentiation by numerous research groups.  While we acknowledge the significance of utilizing primary monocytes to fully comprehend the translational implications of our findings, conducting a complete replication of our experiments in primary monocytes falls beyond the scope of this study. However, we have conducted several pivotal experiments in primary monocytes, including:  

      i) Demonstration of the induction of endogenous MOTS-c in primary human monocytes during differentiation by M-CSF (Fig 3A).

      ii) Observation of an increased number of adhered monocytes during monocyte differentiation following MOTS-c treatment (Fig 5A).

      iii) Examination of the transcriptional regulation in mouse primary bone marrow-derived macrophages (BMDMs) by MOTS-c, seven days after a single treatment at the onset of differentiation (Fig 6).

      In addition to assessing adherence to plastic, we performed RNA-seq of THP-1 cells during early differentiation with MOTS-c as a measure of accelerated differentiation (Fig 4). The positive correlation between the effects of PMA and PMA+MOTS-c suggests that MOTS-c accelerates the transcriptional changes that occur during differentiation (Fig 4G). We consider this method a more comprehensive evaluation of differentiation as it encompasses the expression of thousands of genes rather than relying on a limited selection of cell surface markers. Future investigations should explore additional indicators of differentiation, including potential epigenetic effects of MOTS-c.

      Our findings indicate that endogenous MOTS-c is induced during monocyte stimulation and translocates into the nucleus (Figs 3-4), implying a cell-intrinsic role for MOTS-c during monocyte differentiation. Although examining MOTS-c deficient monocytes would offer valuable insights, technical limitations currently hinder the production of such monocytes due to the mitochondrial genomic encoding of MOTSc within the 12S rRNA.

      Furthermore, our study reveals that MOTS-c alters gene expression in macrophages similarly across age and sex groups. This observation, illustrated in Fig 6E where the fold changes in clusters 5 and 6 in response to MOTS-c were consistent across all groups, suggests that MOTS-c modulates macrophage gene expression in an age-related manner. We postulate this to be an adaptive response to age-related alterations in the monocyte and macrophage microenvironment.

      The number of biological replicates performed for each experiment is indicated.

      The different parts of the manuscript do not appear well connected and it is not clear what the main message from the manuscript would be. The physiological relevance of this study is also unclear.

      The main message of our manuscript is that the mitochondrial genome encodes for a previously unknown host defense peptide that has physiological roles in modulating immune responses during infection and during aging. We have edited the ‘introduction’ to clarify this.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The research study presented by Rice et al. set out to further profile the host defense properties of the mitochondrial protein MOTS-c. To do this they studied i. the potential antimicrobial effects of MOTS-c on common bacterial pathogens E.coli and MRSA, ii. the effects of MOTS-c on the stimulation and differentiation of monocytes into macrophages. This is a well performed study that utilizes relevant methods and cell types to base their conclusions on. However, there appear to be a few weaknesses to the current study that hold it back from more broad application.

      Comment 1: From reading the manuscript methods and results, it is unclear exactly what the synthetic MOTS-c source is. Therefore it is hard to determine whether there may be any impurities in the production of this synthetic protein that may interfere with the results presented throughout the manuscript. Though, the data presented in Supplemental Figure 4F, where E.coli expressing intracellular MOTS-c inhibited bacterial growth certainly support MOTS-c specific effects. Similarly with the experiments showing endogenous MOTS-c levels rising in stimulation and differentiated macrophages (Figure 3).

      We have edited our manuscript to include the source and purity of our synthetic MOTS-c peptide. The MOTS-c peptide used was synthesized by New England Peptides (now Biosynth) with a purity >95% by mass spectrometry.

      Comment 2: It is interesting that the mice receiving bacteria coupled with MOTS-c lost about 10% of their body weight. It would have been interesting to demonstrate the cause of this weight loss since the effect appears to be separate from mere PAMPs as shown by using heat-killed MRSA in Supplemental Figure 5. Was inflammation changed? Is this due to changes in systemic metabolism? Would have been interesting to have seen CRP levels or circulating liver enzymes.

      As suggested, we repeated this experiment to include both the heat-killed and MOTS-c-MRSA groups in the same controlled experiment for comparison (Fig 2; see below). Blood was collected from these mice for evaluation of cytokine levels and markers of organ damage. While only 1/6 controls survived, all MOTSc and heat-killed MRSA-treated mice survived. However, compared to the heat-killed group, the MOTS-cMRSA group lost more weight and had a higher inflammatory profile, but still significantly less than in the control group. We hypothesize that this is due to only partial killing of MRSA by MOTS-c, as suggested by the CFU plated after overnight incubation, leading to a non-lethal infection in these mice. Others have shown that in this peritonitis model, α-hemolysin production by live MRSA is a key factor in toxicity, rather than PAMP-induced shock (PMID: 8975909; 22802349), which is consistent with the absence of death following heat-killed MRSA inoculation.

      Despite these concerns, the data are well suited to answering their research question, and they open up the door to studying how mitochondrial peptides like MOTS-c could have roles outside of the mitochondria.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Suggestions for improvement

      (1) The authors need to indicate in each legend the number of biological replicates analyzed and the number of independent experiments performed. This is essential.

      We have included the number of biological replicates analyzed.

      (2) The authors need to repeat the key experiments using freshly isolated monocytes, either human or mouse. THP-1 cells are abnormal cells and findings from these cells cannot be generalized to monocytes. For instance, in Figures 3A and B, it is clear that the kinetics of MOTS-c expression are different between THP-1 cells and human blood monocytes.

      The kinetics of THP-1 cells compared to human monocytes are slightly different, as expected by using different cells and different differentiation cues (M-CSF vs PMA). However, our findings collectively demonstrate the same effect, that each stimulus transiently induces the expression of MOTS-c within 24 hours in monocytes.

      In Figure 3A, the authors should show what happens in the absence of MCSF. Is MOTS-c expression upregulated by culture alone?

      There is some degree of baseline expression of MOTS-c in a resting state, and MOTS-c expression is significantly increased upon stimulation. This expression may be higher in primary monocytes than THP-1 cells, given that these monocytes are inevitably stressed by being removed from the native environment and put through the purification process.

      (3) In Figure 4A, a control for cytoplasmic contamination in the nuclear fraction is missing.

      We now include GAPDH detection in the nuclear fraction.  

      Author response image 1.

      (4) The RNA-seq analysis shown in Figure 4 is not very informative. What genes are differentially expressed? The authors should provide a list of these genes as supplementary information and highlight some key genes in the figure and text.

      The complete list of these genes is provided in Tables S1 and S2. We chose not to highlight specific genes in this paper due to the lack of sufficient evidence identifying any particular genes as key factors at this time.

      (5) In Figure 5A, a control is missing: the authors should treat the monocytes with the same volume of 'vehicle' (presumably it is water).

      In all experiments with MOTS-c treatment, the controls were treated with the same volume of vehicle (water). We have edited legends to state this.

      (6) In Figure 6, the differences observed seem independent on MOTS-c. The conclusions from this figure are overstated and need to be rephrased and clarified.

      MOTS-c shifted gene expression in macrophages in a similar manner regardless of age and sex, as shown in Fig 6E where the fold changes in clusters 5 and 6 in response to MOTS-c were similar in all groups. Independently, aging alone increases the expression of these same genes related to antigen presentation and interferon signaling, suggesting that MOTS-c shifts macrophage gene expression in an age-related manner – the expression of antigen presentation and interferon-related genes have been shown to be highly age-related (PMID: 36040389, 32669714, 36622281, 31754020). We hypothesize this to be an adaptive response to age-related changes in the monocyte and macrophage microenvironment.

      (7) Adherence to plastic is not a robust read-out for monocyte differentiation into macrophages. The authors need to examine other parameters, for instance characteristic cell surface markers for macrophages.

      As a read-out of accelerated differentiation, in addition to adherence to plastic we performed RNA-seq of THP-1 cells during early differentiation with MOTS-c (Fig 4). The positive correlation between the effects of PMA and effects of PMA+MOTS-c suggest MOTS-c is accelerating the transcriptional changes that occur during differentiation (Fig 4G). We believe this to be a more robust assessment of differentiation as it relies on the expression of thousands of genes rather than a limited selection of cell surface markers. Further studies are needed to assess other read-outs of differentiation, including possible epigenetic effects of MOTS-c.

      (8) It is not clear whether MOTS-c could have a cell-intrinsic effect in monocytes. The results should be strengthened by examining the differentiation of monocytes deficient for MOTS-c (without addition of exogenous MOTS-c).

      We have shown that endogenous MOTS-c is induced during monocyte stimulation and translocates into the nucleus (Figs 3-4), suggesting that MOTS-c does have a cell-intrinsic role during monocyte differentiation.

      While having MOTS-c deficient monocytes would certainly be insightful, because MOTS-c is encoded within the mitochondrial genome in the 12S rRNA there are currently technical limitations in producing these monocytes.

      Other points

      (1) The paper would benefit from a more extended discussion to understand the physiological relevance of these findings. What cells would release MOTS-c in vivo, and how would that affect monocytes ? Is there a cell-intrinsic of MOTS-c in monocytes, and if so what would be the signals inducing its expression during differentiation ? These aspects should be discussed by the authors so that the readers can understand their views.

      We thank the reviewer for their suggestion and have edited the discussion in our revised manuscript.  

      MOTS-c has been detected in various tissue and cell types, including the liver, muscle, T cells, monocytes/macrophages, and epithelial cells. This aligns with MOTS-c being referred to in literature as a cytokine, which are typically expressed by a broad range of cell types. Consistent with this, we also propose that MOTS-c would be expressed in cells known to express HDPs.

      We hypothesize that MOTS-c acts in both a cell-intrinsic and extrinsic manner in vivo, consistent with known HDPs, to both target bacteria directly and modulate immune cell responses. In vitro, M-CSF, PMA, LPS, and IFNγ each induced MOTS-c expression. In vivo, monocytes respond to a range of stimuli that influence their differentiation, and these stimuli may induce MOTS-c as well. We have previously published that MOTS-c acts primarily under conditions of cell stress, such as nutrient deprivation and oxidative stress, to help restore homeostasis. While MOTS-c did regulate macrophage gene expression in resting “M0-like” macrophages, we hypothesize that the physiological role of MOTS-c is to regulate cell adaptation to stress, therefore the context under which monocytes differentiate will be an important factor determining the functional effects of MOTS-c. In future studies, we plan to test whether the immuno-modulatory effects of MOTS-c are dependent on the environment during differentiation.

      (2) Scale bar appear to be missing from Figure 1G.

      We apologize for the poor resolution of the scale bar. We have made it easily recognizable in the revised figure.  

      (3) It is not very clear what is shown in Figure S2. The authors should better explain what the images represent.

      Figure S2 is related to Figure 1D and Figure S1. In this experiment, E. coli, S. typhimurium, and P. aeruginosa cultures were treated with MOTS-c (100uM). We observed that only E. coli aggregated immediately, while

      S. typhimurium and P. aeruginosa did not show aggregation. This suggests that MOTS-c exhibits specificity in targeting certain types of bacteria, although the underlying basis of this specificity is currently unknown.  

      We have revised the legend as follows: 'MOTS-c exhibits specificity in bacterial targeting. MOTS-c (100 μM) treatment causes immediate aggregation of E. coli but not S. typhimurium or P. aeruginosa (n=6). Representative image shown. See Figure 1D'.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      This is a beautifully executed study and a well written manuscript. I generally don't have much critical feedback to give based on my reading. The only recommendation I have to improve the completeness of the data would be in relation to Figure 5E and F. The metabolic phenotype of LPS stimulated monocytes/macrophages is more typically the Warburg effect where oxidative phosphorylation is reduced (as you show with a lowered OCR), but with a concomitant elevation in lactate production. It would have been nice to see either i. the ECAR levels from your seahorse data, or ii. separate lactate measurements on your supernatants. This would go a long way to further explaining the phenotype described in the figure.

      We greatly appreciate the reviewer's positive feedback. The data provided below are ECAR measurements obtained from the Seahorse assay. However, it's important to note that the assays were originally designed for OCR measurement (e.g. buffered media unsuitable for ECAR measurements, use of mitochondrial complex inhibitors, etc.), thus rendering the ECAR data unreliable for accurately assessing glycolysis. Consequently, while we share this data with the reviewer, we believe it is inappropriate to include it in the manuscript (hence omitted in the original submission).

      Author response image 2.

      Furthermore, we are currently engaged in a separate manuscript focusing on elucidating the immunometabolic mechanisms of MOTS-c in macrophages. We intend for this manuscript to stand alone, providing a comprehensive exploration of metabolic pathways, including a detailed untargeted metabolomics map spanning multiple time-points.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The authors sought to test whether anterior insular cortex neurons increase or decrease firing during fear behavior and freezing, bi-directionally control fear via separate, anatomically defined outputs. Using a fairly simple behavior where mice were exposed to tone-shock pairings, they found roughly equal populations that do indeed either increase or decrease firing during freezing. Next, they sought to test whether these distinct populations may also have distinct outputs. Using retrograde tracers they found that the anterior insular cortex contains non-overlapping neurons which project to the mediodorsal thalamus or amygdala. Mediodorsal thalamus-projecting neurons tended to cluster in deep cortical layers while amygdala-projecting neurons were primarily in more superficial layers. Stimulation of insula-thalamus projection decreased freezing behavior, and stimulation of insula-amygdala projections increased fear behavior. Given that the neurons that increased firing were located in deep layers, that thalamus projections occurred in deep layers, and that stimulation of insula-thalamus neurons decreased freezing, the authors concluded that the increased firing neurons may be thalamus projections. Similarly, given that decreased-firing neurons tended to occur in more superficial layers, that insula-amygdala projections were primarily superficial, and that insula-amygdala stimulation increased freezing behavior, authors concluded that the decreased firing cells may be amygdala projections. The study has several strengths though also some caveats.

      Strengths:

      The potential link between physiological activity, anatomy, and behavior is well laid out and is an interesting question. The activity contrast between the units that increase/decrease firing during freezing is clear.

      It is nice to see the recording of extracellular spiking activity, which provides a clear measure of neural output, whereas similar studies often use bulk calcium imaging, a signal that rarely matches real neural activity even when anatomy suggests it might (see London et al 2018 J Neuro - there are increased/decreased spiking striatal populations, but both D1 and D2 striatal neurons increase bulk calcium).

      Weaknesses:

      The link between spiking, anatomy, and behavior requires assumptions/inferences: the anatomically/genetically defined neurons which had distinct outputs and opposite behavioral effects can only be assumed the increased/decreased spiking neurons, based on the rough area of the cortical layer they were recorded.

      Yes, we are aware that we could not provide a direct link between spiking, anatomy and behavior. We have specifically noted this in the discussion section and added a possible experiment that could be carried out to provide a more direct link in a future study.

      [Lines 371-375] We would like to provide a more direct evidence between the neuronal response types and projection patterns in future studies by electrophysiologically identifying freezing-excited and freezing-inhibited aIC neurons and testing whether those neurons activates to optogenetic activation of amygdala or medial thalamus projecting aIC neurons.

      The behavior would require more control to fully support claims about the associative nature of the fear response (see Trott et al 2022 eLife) - freezing, in this case, could just as well be nonassociative. In a similar vein, fixed intertrial intervals, though common practice in the fear literature, pose a problem for neurophysiological studies. The first is that animals learn the timing of events, and the second is that neural activity is dynamic and changes over time. Thus it is very difficult to determine whether changes in neural activity are due to learning about the tone-shock contingency, timing of the task, simply occur because of time and independently of external events, or some combination of the above.

      Trott et al. (2022) stated that "...freezing was the purest reflection of associative learning." The nonassociative processes mentioned in the study were related to running and darting behaviors, which the authors argue are suppressed by associative learning. Moreover, considerable evidence from immediate postshock freezing and immediate postshock context shift studies all indicate that the freezing response is an associative (and not nonassociative) response (Fanselow, 1980 and 1986; and Landeira-Fernandez et al., 2006). Thus, our animals' freezing response to the tone CS presentation in a novel context, following three tone CS-footshock US pairings, most likely reflects associative learning. 

      Concerning the issue of fixed inter-trial intervals (ITIs), which are standard in fear conditioning studies, particularly those with few CS-US paired trials, we acknowledge the challenge in interpreting the neural correlates of behavior. However, the ITIs in our extinction study was variable and we still found neural activities that had significant correlation with freezing. The results of our extinction study, carried out with variable it is, suggest that the aIC neural activity changes measured in this study is likely due to freezing behavior associated with fear learning, not due to learning the contingencies of fixed ITIs.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      In this study, the authors aim to understand how neurons in the anterior insular cortex (insula) modulate fear behaviors. They report that the activity of a subpopulation of insula neurons is positively correlated with freezing behaviors, while the activity of another subpopulation of neurons is negatively correlated to the same freezing episodes. They then used optogenetics and showed that activation of anterior insula excitatory neurons during tones predicting a footshock increases the amount of freezing outside the tone presentation, while optogenetic inhibition had no effect. Finally, they found that two neuronal projections of the anterior insula, one to the amygdala and another to the medial thalamus, are increasing and decreasing freezing behaviors respectively. While the study contains interesting and timely findings for our understanding of the mechanisms underlying fear, some points remain to be addressed.

      We are thankful for the detailed and constructive comments by the reviewer and addressed the points. Specifically, we included possible limitations of using only male mice in the study, included two more studies about the insula as references, specified the L-ratio and isolated distance used in our study, added the ratio of putative-excitatory and putative-inhibitory neurons obtained from our study, changed the terms used to describe neuronal activity changes (freezing-excited and freezing-inhibited cells), added new analysis (Figure 2H), rearranged Figure 2 for clarity, added new histology images, and added atlas maps with viral expressions (three figure supplements).

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      - I would suggest keeping the same y-axis for all figures that display the same data type - Figure 5D, for example.

      Thank you for the detailed suggestion. We corrected the y-axis that display the same data type to be the same for all figures.

      - In the methods, it says 30s bins were used for neural analysis (line 435). I cannot imagine doing this, and looking at the other figures, it does not look like this is the case so could you please clarify what bins, averages, etc were used for neural and behavioral analysis?

      Bin size for neural analysis varied; 30s, 5s, 1s bins were used depending on the analysis. We corrected this and specified what time bin was used for which figure in the methods.

      Bin size for neural and freezing behavior was 30s and we also added this to the methods.

      - I would not make any claims about the fear response here being associative/conditional. This would require a control group that received an equal number of tone and shock exposures, whether explicitly unpaired or random.

      The unpaired fear conditioning paradigm, unpaired tone and shock, suggested by the reviewer is well characterized not to induce fear behavior by CS (Moita et al., 2003 and Kochli et al., 2015). In addition, considerable evidence from immediate post-shock freezing and immediate post-shock context shift studies all indicate that the freezing response is an associative (and not nonassociative) response (Fanselow, 1980 and 1986; and Landeira-Fernandez et al., 2006). Thus, our animals' freezing response to the tone CS presentation in a novel context, following three tone CS-footshock US pairings, most likely reflects associative learning.

      - I appreciate the discussion about requiring some inference to conclude that anatomically defined neurons are the physiologically defined ones. This is a caveat that is fully disclosed, however, I might suggest adding to the discussion that future experiments could address this by tagging insula-thalamus or insula-amygdala neurons with antidromic (opto or even plain old electric!) stimulation. These experiments are tricky to perform, of course, but this would be required to fully close all the links between behavior, physiology, and anatomy.

      As suggested, we have included that, in a future study, we would like to elucidate a more direct link between physiology, anatomy and behaviors by optogenetically tagging the insula-thalamus/insula-amygdala neurons and identifying whether it may be a positive or a negative cell (now named the freezing-excited and freezing-inhibited cells, respectively) in the discussion.

      [Lines 371-375] We would like to provide a more direct evidence between the neuronal response types and projection patterns in future studies by electrophysiologically identifying freezing-excited and freezing-inhibited aIC neurons and testing whether those neurons activates to optogenetic activation of amygdala or medial thalamus projecting aIC neurons.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Major comments:

      (1) As all experiments have been performed only in male mice, the authors need to clearly state this limit in the introduction, abstract, and title of the manuscript.

      With increasing number of readers becoming interested in the biological sex used in preclinical studies, we also feel that it should be mentioned in the beginning of the manuscript. As suggested, we explicitly wrote that we only used male mice in the title, abstract, and introduction. In addition, we discussed possible limitations of only using male mice in the discussion section as follows:

      [Lines 381-386] Another factor to consider is that we have only used male mice in this study. Although many studies report that there is no biological sex difference in cued fear conditioning (42), the main experimental paradigm used in this study, it does not mean that the underlying brain circuit mechanism would also be similar. The bidirectional fear modulation by aIC→medial thalamus or the aIC→amygdala projections may be different in female mice, as some studies report reduced cued fear extinction in females (42).

      (2) The authors are missing important publications reporting findings on the insular cortex in fear and anxiety. For example, the authors should cite studies showing that anterior insula VIP+ interneurons inhibition reduces fear memory retrieval (Ramos-Prats et al., 2022) and that posterior insula neurons are a state-dependent regulator of fear (Klein et al., 2021). Also, regarding the anterior insula to basolateral amygdala projection (aIC-BLA), the author should include recent work showing that this population encodes both negative valence and anxiogenic spaces (Nicolas et al., 2023). 

      We appreciate the detailed suggestions and we added appropriate publications in the discussion section. The anterior insula VIP+ interneuron study (Ramos-Prats et al., 2022) is interesting, but based on the evidence provided in the paper, we felt that the role of aIC VIP+ interneuron in fear conditioning is low. VIP+ interneurons in the aIC seem to be important in coding sensory stimuli, however, it’s relevance to conditioned stimuli seems to be low; overall VIP intracellular calcium activity to CS was low and did not differ between acquisition and retrieval. Also, inhibition of VIP did not influence fear acquisition. VIP inhibition during fear acquisition did reduce fear retrieval (CS only, no light stimulation), but this does not necessarily mean that VIP activity will be involved in fear memory storage or retrieval, especially because intracellular calcium activity of VIP+ neurons was low during fear conditioning and retrieval.

      Studies by Klein et al. (2021) and Nicolas et al. (2023) are integrated in the discussion section as follows.

      [Lines 297-301] Group activity of neurons in the pIC measured with fiberphotometry, interestingly, exhibited fear state dependent activity changes—decreased activity with high fear behavior and increased activity with lower fear behavior (29)—suggesting that group activity of the pIC may be involves in maintain appropriate level of fear behavior.

      [Lines 316-319] Another distinction between the aIC and pIC may be related with anxiety, as a recent study showed that group activity of aIC neurons, but not that of the pIC, increased when mice explored anxiogenic space (open arms in an elevated plus maze, center of an open field box) (32).

      (3) The authors should specify how many neurons they excluded after controlling the L-ratio and isolation distance. It is also important to specify the percentage of putative excitatory and inhibitory interneurons recorded among the 11 mice based on their classification (the number of putative inhibitory interneurons in Figure 1D seems too low to be accurate).

      We use manual cluster cutting and only cut clusters that are visually well isolated. So we hardly have any neurons that are excluded after controlling for L-ratio and isolation distance. The criterion we used was L-ratio<0.3 and isolation distance>15, and we specified this in the methods as follows.

      [Lines 454-458] We only used well-isolated units (L-ratio<0.3, isolation distance>15) that were confirmed to be recorded in the aIC (conditioned group: n = 116 neurons, 11 mice; control group: n = 14 neurons, 3 mice) for the analysis (46). The mean of units used in our analysis are as follows: L-ratio = 0.09 ± 0.012, isolation distance = 44.97 ± 5.26 (expressed as mean ± standard deviation).

      As suggested, we also specified the percentage of putative excitatory and inhibitory interneurons recorded from our study in the results and methods section. The relative percentage of putative excitatory and inhibitory interneurons were similar for both the conditioned and the control groups (conditioned putative-excitatory: 93.1%, putative-inhibitory: 6.9%; control putative-excitatory: 92.9%, putative-inhibitory: 7.1%). Although the number of putative-interneurons isolated from our recordings is low that is what we obtained. Putative inhibitory neurons, probably because of their relatively smaller size, has a tendency to be underrepresented than the putative excitatory cells.

      [Lines 83-87] Of the recorded neurons, we analyzed the activity of 108 putative pyramidal neurons (93% of total isolated neurons) from 11 mice, which were distinguished from putative interneurons (n = 8 cells, 7% of total isolated neurons) based on the characteristics of their recorded action potentials (Figure 1D; see methods for details).

      [Lines 464-467] The percentage of putative excitatory neurons and putative inhibitory interneurons obtained from both groups were similar (conditioned putative-excitatory: 93.1%, putative-inhibitory: 6.9%; control putative-excitatory: 92.9%, putative-inhibitory: 7.1%).

      (4) While the use of correlation of single-unit firing frequency with freezing is interesting, classically, studies analyze the firing in comparison to the auditory cues. If the authors want to keep the correlation analysis with freezing, rather than correlations to the cues, they should rename the cells as "freezing excited" and "freezing inhibited" cells instead of positive and negative cells.

      As suggested, we used the terms “freezing-excited” and “freezing-inhibited” cells instead of positive and negative cells.

      (5) To improve clarity, Figure 2 should be reorganized to start with the representative examples before including the average of population data. Thus Panel D should be the first one. The authors should also consider including the trace of the firing rate of these representative units over time, on top of the freezing trace, as well as Pearson's r and p values for both of them. Then, the next panels should be ordered as follows: F, G, H, C, A, B, I, and finally E.

      We have rearranged Figure 2 based on the suggestions.

      (6) It is unclear why the freezing response in Figure 2 is different in current panels F, G, and H. Please clarify this point.

      It was because the freezing behaviors of slightly different population of animals were averaged. Some animals did not have positive/negative (or both) cells and only the behavior of animals with the specified cell-type were used for calculating the mean freezing response. With rearrangement of Figure 2, now we do not have plots with juxtaposed mean neuronal response-types and behavior.

      (7) Even though the peak of tone-induced firing rate change between negative and positive cells is 10s later for positive cells, the conclusion that this 'difference suggests differential circuits may regulate the activities of different neuron types in response to fear' is overstating the observation. This statement should be rephrased. Indeed, it could be the same circuits that are regulated by different inputs (glutamatergic, GABA, or neuromodulatory inputs).

      We agree and delete the statement from the manuscript.

      (8) The authors mention they did not find tone onset nor tone offset-induced responses of anterior insula neurons. It would be helpful to represent this finding in a Figure, especially, which were the criteria for a cell to be tone onset or tone offset responding.

      We added how tone-onset and tone-offset were analyzed in the methods section and added a plot of the analysis in Figure 2H.

      (9) Based on the spread of the viral expression shown in Figure 3B, it appears that the authors are activating/inhibiting insula neurons in the GI layer, whereas single-unit recordings report the electrodes were located in DI, AID, and AIV layers. The authors should provide histology maps of the viral spread for ChR2, NpHR3, and eYFP expression.

      Thank you for the excellent suggestion. Now the histological sample in Figure 3B is a sample with expression in the GI/DI/AID layers and it also has an image taken at higher resolution (x40) to show that viral vectors are expressed inside neurons. We also added histological maps with overlay of viral expression patterns of the ChR2, eYFP, and NpHR3 groups in Figure 3—figure supplement 1.

      (10) In Figure 5B, the distribution of terminals expressing ChR2 appears much denser in CM than in MD. This should be quantified across mice and if consistent with the representative image, the authors should refer to aIC-CM rather than aIC-MD terminals.

      Overall, we referred to the connection as aIC-medial thalamus, which collectively includes both the CM and the MD. Microscopes we have cannot determine whether terminals end at the CM or MD, but the aIC projections seems to pass through the CM to reach the MD. The Allen Brain Institute’s Mouse brain connectivity map (https://connectivity.brain-map.org/projection/experiment/272737914) of a B6 mouse, the mouse strain we used in our study, with tracers injected in similar location as our study also supports our speculation and shows that aIC neuronal projections terminate more in the MD than in the CM. In addition, the power of light delivered for optogenetic manipulation is greatly reduced over distance, and therefore, the MD projecting terminals which is closer to the optic fiber will be more likely to be activated than the CM projecting terminals. However, since we could not determine whether the aIC terminate at the CM or the MD, we collectively referred to the connection as the aIC-medial thalamus throughout the manuscript.

      Author response image 1.

      (11) Histological verifications for each in vivo electrophysiology, optogenetic, and tracing experiments need to include a representative image of the implantation/injection site, as well as a 40x zoom-in image focusing on the cell bodies or terminals right below the optic fiber (for optogenetic experiments). Moreover, an atlas map including all injection locations with the spread of the virus and fiber placement should be added in the Supplement Figures for each experiment (see Figure S1 Klein et al., 2021). Similarly, the authors need to add a representation of the spread of the retrograde tracers for each mouse used for this tracing experiment.

      As suggested, we added a histology sample showing electrode recording location for in-vivo electrophysiology in Figure 1 and added atlas maps for the optogenetic and tracing experiments in supplementary figures. We also provide a 40x zoom-in image of the expression pattern for the optogenetic experiments (Figure 3B).

      (12) To target anterior insula neurons, authors mention coordinates that do not reach the insula on the Paxinos atlas (AP: +1.2 mm, ML: -3.4 mm, DV: -1.8 mm). If the DV was taken from the brain surface, this has to be specified, and if the other coordinates are from Bregma, this also needs to be specified. Finally, the authors cite a review from Maren & Fanselow (1996), for the anterior insula coordinates, but it remains unclear why.

      AP and ML coordinates are measurement made in reference to the bregma. DV was calculated from the brain surface. We specified these in the Methods. We did not cite a review from Maren & Fenselow for the aIC coordinates.

      Minor comments:

      (1) A schematic of the microdrive and tetrodes, including the distance of each tetrode would also be helpful.

      We used a handcrafted Microdrives with four tetrodes. Since they were handcrafted, the relative orientation of the tetrodes varies and tetrode recording locations has to be verified histologically. We, however, made sure that the distance between tetrodes to be more than 200 μm apart so that distinct single-units will be obtained from different tetrodes. We added this to the methods as follows.

      [Lines 430-431] The distance between the tetrodes were greater than 200 μm to ensure that distinct single-units will be obtained from different tetrodes.

      (2) Figure 2E: representation of the baseline firing (3-min period before the tone presentation) is missing.

      Figure 2E is the 3 min period before tone presentation

      (3) Figure 2: Averages Pearson's correlation r and p values should be stated on panels F, G, and H (positive cell r = 0.81, P < 0.05; negative cell r = -0.68, P < 0.05).

      They were all originally stated in the figures. But with reorganization of Figure 2, we now have a plot of the Pearson’s Correlation with r and p values in Figure 2F.

      (4) Figure 2I: Representation of the absolute value of the normalized firing is highly confusing. Indeed, as the 'negative cells' are inhibited to freezing, firing should be represented as normalized, and negative for the inhibited cells.

      To avoid confusion, we did not take an absolute value of the “negative cells”, which are now called the “freezing-inhibited cells”.

      (5) Figure 4E (retrograde tracing): representation of individual values is missing.

      Figure 4E now has individual values.

      References:

      London, T. D., Licholai, J. A., Szczot, I., Ali, M. A., LeBlanc, K. H., Fobbs, W. C., & Kravitz, A. V. (2018). Coordinated ramping of dorsal striatal pathways preceding food approach and consumption. Journal of Neuroscience, 38(14), 3547-3558.

      Trott, J. M., Hoffman, A. N., Zhuravka, I., & Fanselow, M. S. (2022). Conditional and unconditional components of aversively motivated freezing, flight and darting in mice. Elife, 11, e75663.

      Fanselow, M. S. (1980). Conditional and unconditional components of post-shock freezing. The Pavlovian journal of biological science: Official Journal of the Pavlovian, 15(4), 177-182.

      Fanselow, M. S. (1986). Associative vs topographical accounts of the immediate shock-freezing deficit in rats: implications for the response selection rules governing species-specific defensive reactions. Learning and Motivation, 17(1), 16-39.

      Landeira-Fernandez, J., DeCola, J. P., Kim, J. J., & Fanselow, M. S. (2006). Immediate shock deficit in fear conditioning: effects of shock manipulations. Behavioral neuroscience, 120(4), 873.

      Moita, M. A., Rosis, S., Zhou, Y., LeDoux, J. E., & Blair, H. T. (2003). Hippocampal place cells acquire location-specific responses to the conditioned stimulus during auditory fear conditioning. Neuron, 37(3), 485-497.

      Kochli, D. E., Thompson, E. C., Fricke, E. A., Postle, A. F., & Quinn, J. J. (2015). The amygdala is critical for trace, delay, and contextual fear conditioning. Learning & memory, 22(2), 92-100.

      Ramos-Prats, A., Paradiso, E., Castaldi, F., Sadeghi, M., Mir, M. Y., Hörtnagl, H., ... & Ferraguti, F. (2022). VIP-expressing interneurons in the anterior insular cortex contribute to sensory processing to regulate adaptive behavior. Cell Reports, 39(9).

      Klein, A. S., Dolensek, N., Weiand, C., & Gogolla, N. (2021). Fear balance is maintained by bodily feedback to the insular cortex in mice. Science, 374(6570), 1010-1015.

      Nicolas, C., Ju, A., Wu, Y., Eldirdiri, H., Delcasso, S., Couderc, Y., ... & Beyeler, A. (2023). Linking emotional valence and anxiety in a mouse insula-amygdala circuit. Nature Communications, 14(1), 5073.

      Maren, S., & Fanselow, M. S. (1996). The amygdala and fear conditioning : Has the nut been cracked? Neuron, 16(2), 237‑240. https://doi.org/10.1016/s0896-6273(00)80041-0

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This work by Ding et al uses agent-based simulations to explore the role of the structure of molecular motor myosin filaments in force generation in cytoskeletal structures. The focus of the study is on disordered actin bundles which can occur in the cell cytoskeleton and have also been investigated with in vitro purified protein experiments.

      Strengths:

      The key finding is that cooperative effects between multiple myosin filaments can enhance both total force and the efficiency of force generation (force per myosin). These trends were possible to obtain only because the detailed structure of the motor filaments with multiple heads is represented in the model.

      We appreciate your comments about the strength of our study. 

      Weaknesses:

      It is not clearly described what scientific/biological questions about cellular force production the work answers. There should be more discussion of how their simulation results compare with existing experiments or can be tested in future experiments.

      Please see our response to the comment (1) below.

      The model assumptions and scientific context need to be described better.

      We apologize for the insufficient descriptions about the model and the scientific context. We revised the manuscript to better explain model assumptions and scientific context as described in our responses below.

      The network contractility seems to be a mere appendix to the bundle contractility which is presented in much more detail.

      Please see our response to the comment (6) below.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) It is not clearly described what scientific/biological questions about cellular force production the work answers. There should be more discussion of how their simulation results compare with existing experiments, or can be tested in future experiments. The authors do briefly mention Reference 4 where different myosin isoforms were used, but it is not clear that these experiments support the scalings predicted in this work in Figures 3-6. Also, the experiments in Ref. 4 apparently did not involve passive crosslinkers (ACPs) which are key in this study.

      Thank you for the comment. In the 5th paragraph of the discussion section of the original manuscript, we applied our findings to understand how structural differences between ventral stress fibers and actin arcs could affect force generation. In addition, at the end of the discussion section, we mentioned that experiments with artificially-made myosin thick filaments could be used for verifying our results. 

      The experiments in Ref. 4 were only ones that we could directly compare our results with. In previous study, actomyosin bundles were experimentally created with ACPs (K.L. Weirich et al., Biophys J, 2021, 120: 1957-1970), but the motions of myosin thick filaments were only quantities measured in the experiments. In general, measuring forces generated by in vitro actomyosin bundles is very challenging. This is why the predictions from our model are particularly valuable for understanding the force generation of actomyosin structures. 

      (2) The architecture of the bundles seems to be prescribed by hand in these simulations. Several well-known stochastic aspects of the dynamics of actin and actin-binding proteins are not included in the model. For example, there is no remodeling of the actin structures through actin polymerization and depolymerization, or crosslink (ACP) binding and unbinding. Can the authors comment on why these effects could be neglected for the questions they want to address?

      Thank you for the comment. We previously showed that the force generation process in actomyosin networks and bundles is affected by actin dynamics (Q. Yu et al., Biophys J, 2018, 115: 2003-2013) and the unbinding of ACPs (T. Kim, Biomech Model Mechanobiol, 2015, 14(2): 345-355 and W. Jung et al., Comput Part Mech, 2015, 2(4): 317-327). 

      However, we did not include the actin dynamics and the ACP unbinding in the current study to clearly understand the effects of the structural properties of thick filaments on the force generation process. We have learned that the stochastic behaviors of cytoskeletal components lead to noisier results, which requires us to run a much larger number of simulations to obtain statistically convincing data. We added the following paragraph in the discussion section of the revised manuscript:

      “Although this study focused mainly on parameters related to motor structures, we expect that other parameters would affect the force generation process. For example, as we showed before, a decrease in ACP density would reduce forces by deteriorating connectivity between filaments. With very low ACP density, some of neighboring motors may not have ACPs between them, thus adding up their forces as shown in Fig. 2. However, such low ACP density may not maintain the structure of bundles or cross-linked networks well. In addition, the force-dependent unbinding of ACPs could change the spatial distribution of ACPs during force generation. If they behave as a slip bond which unbinds more frequently with higher forces, ACPs may not stay between two motors for long time due to high tension. Then, forces generated by two motors may have a higher chance to add up. By contrast, if they behave as a catch bond which unbinds less frequently with larger forces, more ACPs will be recruited between two motors, reducing a chance to add up

      forces. The length of actin filaments is unlikely to affect the force generation process significantly unless filaments are very short. Additionally, as we showed before, actin turnover would reduce forces by competing with motor activities, change connectivity between filaments over time, and prevent motors from being stalled for long time, all of which could affect force generation.”

      (3) The present study is confined to the fixed density of motors and ACPs. However, these can be easily varied in in vitro experiments. Works such as Reference 4 show an optimum in contractility vs myosin concentration. Myosins act not only to slide actin filaments but also crosslink them.

      Can the authors vary myosin concentration to demonstrate such effects in their model?

      As the reviewer pointed out, there is a belief that myosin thick filaments can serve as crosslinkers as well. However, unless there are a fraction of dead myosins (which remain bound on filaments without walking) or myosins dwell at the barbed ends filaments for very long time, it looks very hard for bundles or networks to generate large forces. A former experiment showed that active myosins increases the viscosity of actin networks, not elasticity (D. Humphrey et al., Nature, 2002, 416: 413-416) Computer simulations with reasonable assumptions did not show significant force generation without cross-linkers. We have tested systems with a large number of motors and a few cross-linkers in previous studies (T. Kim, Biomech Model Mechanobiol, 2015, 14(2): 345-355 and W. Jung et al., Comput Part Mech, 2015, 2(4): 317-327). We observed that large force/stress was generated momentarily, but it was relaxed very fast. It is expected that there will be similar outcomes if we try such conditions in the current study.

      (4) Why is there a (factor of 1.5-2) discrepancy in the measured (Ftot) and estimated (Fest) force values in Figure 4-6? How can the authors improve their scaling arguments to capture this? What about the estimated efficiency?

      Thank you for the comment. Indeed, there was a discrepancy between the actual and estimated forces. When the estimated force was calculated, we used the z positions of motors without consideration of the actual bundle geometry with multiple filaments. For example, if two motors are located on the opposite sides of the bundle (i.e., if they are located far from each other in x or y direction), forces generated by them may not counterbalance each other. Then, the estimated force can be smaller than the actual force because counterbalance between motors can be overcounted. The original manuscript had the following sentences to clarify this point: “F</sub>est</sub> was generally smaller than F<sub>tot</sub> because this analysis does not account for actual bundle geometry consisting of multiple F-actins; if two motors are located far from each other in x or y direction, they may not counterbalance or add up forces. Nevertheless, we found that F<sub>est</sub> captures the overall dependence of F<sub>tot</sub> on parameters well.”

      (5) Several choices of parameter values used in the simulations are not clear:

      a) Why consider F actin of 140 nm specifically? Actin can come in a range of lengths. How do their results depend upon the length scale of actin?

      It seems that there is a misunderstanding. 140 nm is the equilibrium length of one actin segment in our model. The actual F-actin consists of multiple actin segments. The length of Factin was 9 μm in bundle simulations and 10 μm (average) in network simulations. We expect that the general tendency of our results would not change with different filament length. However, if filament length becomes too short, the force generation process would be impaired due to lack of connectivity between filaments. 

      b) Similarly, very specific values of myosin backbone length (42 nm), number of myosin heads (8), number of arms (24), and Actin Cross-linking Proteins (ACPs). What informs these values and how will the results change if they are different? It is not especially clear how an "Arm" differs from "heads" and what kind of coarse-graining is involved.

      In the “model overview” section of the original manuscript, we mentioned the following to clarify the definitions of motor arms and motor heads: 

      “To mimic the structure of bipolar filaments, each motor has a backbone, consisting of serially linked segments, and two arms on each endpoint of the backbone segments that represent 8 myosin heads (N<sub>h</sub> = 8).”

      We devised this coarse-graining scheme of myosin thick filaments in our previous work (T. Kim, Biomech Model Mechanobiol, 2015, 14(5): 1143-1155). Through extensive tests, we showed that force generation and motor behaviors are largely independent of coarse-graining level. In other words, a motor with the same value of N<sub>h</sub>N<sub>a</sub> leads to similar outcomes regardless of the value of N<sub>a</sub>. However, in a bundle with multiple filaments, each motor has a sufficient number of arms to ensure simultaneous interactions with those filaments. This is why we decided to useN<sub>h</sub> = 8 and N<sub>a</sub> = 24. 

      To match the length of thick filaments and the total number of heads (N<sub>h</sub>N<sub>a</sub>) in the model with real myosin thick filaments, we have used 42 nm for each backbone length. Varying this length is equivalent to a variation in L<sub>sp</sub> that we did for Fig. 6.

      We used high ACP density to ensure connections between all neighboring pairs of actin filaments. We already showed how the presence of ACPs affects the force generation process in Fig. 2 using two actin filaments. It is expected that a variation of ACP density would affect our results to some extent. Since the main focus of the current study is the structural properties of motors, we did not explore the effects of ACP density. I hope that the reviewer would understand our intention. 

      (6) The manuscript focuses on disordered bundles with only one figure on networks. However, actin fibers also ubiquitously exist as disordered networks, and it is important to explore in more detail the contractile forces in such network arrangements.

      We appreciate the comment. Because we plan to delve into the effects of motor structures on the force generation in networks as a follow-up study, we showed the minimal results in the current study to prove the generality of our findings. I hope that the reviewer would understand our intention and plan.

      It is not described very clearly how these networks were generated.

      We apologize for lack of explanation about how the networks were generated. We added the following section in Supplementary Text of the revised manuscript:

      “Network assembly

      Unlike F-actin in bundle simulations, F-actin in network simulations is formed by stochastic processes as in our previous studies. The formation of F-actin is initiated from a nucleation event with a constant rate constant, k<sub>n,A</sub>, with the appearance of one cylindrical segment in a random position with a random orientation perpendicular to the z direction. The polymerization of F-actin is simulated by adding cylindrical segments at the barbed end of existing filaments with a rate constant, k<sub>p,A</sub>. The ratio of k<sub>n,A</sub>to k<sub>p,A</sub> is adjusted to result in the average filament length of ~10 μm. The rest of the assembly process is identical to that described in the main text.”

      Crosslinked biopolymers like actin typically form disordered elastic networks with their coordination number below rigidity percolation threshold (z=4 in 2D), see for example review by Broedersz and Mackintosh Rev. Mod, Phys. 2013. Such networks should exist in the bendingdominated regime, where bending forces play a vital role in force propagation. Was that observed in the simulations? Why or why not?

      We appreciate the comment. We are aware of the bending-dominated regime and indeed showed the importance of the bending stiffness of actin filaments at low shear strain level in our previous work (T. Kim et al., PLOS Comput Biol, 2009, 5(7): e1000439). In case of active networks with motors, such a bending-dominated regime has not been observed without external shear strain. Instead, buckling of actin filaments was found to be essential for breaking symmetry between tensile and compressive forces developed by motor activities. We have shown that the free contraction of networks is inhibited if filament bending stiffness is increased substantially (J. Li et al., Soft Matter, 2017, 13: 3213-3220 and T. Bidone et al., PLOS Comput Biol, 2017, 13(1): e1005277). We expect that contractile forces generated by bundles or networks will be reduced significantly if we highly increase bending stiffness. However, considering the focus of the current study is on the structural properties of motors, we did not perform such simulations. 

      (7) It would be interesting to see the simulated predictions of the bundle or network contraction dynamics. This can be done by changing to free boundary conditions so that the bundle can contract.

      Thank you for the suggestion. We have previously investigated the free contraction of actomyosin networks with different motor density and ACP density (J Li et al., Soft Matter, 2017, 13: 3213). We observed that the rate of network contraction was higher with more motors and ACPs. However, we did not test the effects of the structural properties of thick filaments in the previous study. We plan to investigate the effects in future studies because the focus of the current study is the force generation process. Please note that in the discussion section of the original manuscript, we mentioned the following:

      “Although we focused on force generation, the contractile behaviors of actomyosin structures (i.e., a decrease in length) have also been of great interest. Our model can be used to study such contractile behaviors by deactivating the periodic boundary condition and removing connection between one end of bundle/network and a domain boundary as done previously [20]. To achieve higher contractile speed with the same total number of myosin heads, the existence of multiple contractile units would be better as suggested in a previous work [4]. This means that there is a trade-off between force generation and contractile speed. Previous studies also showed that the contractile speed of networks is proportional to motor density [18, 43, 51]. We may be able to use our model to systematically investigate how the contractile speed is regulated by parameters that we tested in this study, including the number, distribution, length, and structure of motors.”

      Minor suggestions for improvement:

      (1) What are the vertical markers in Figures 1E and F? They should be labelled. if they are crosslinkers, it is not clear why the color is different from Figure 1A and B.

      We believe that the reviewer meant Figs. 2E, F. Those vertical lines are indeed ACPs (crosslinkers). We changed the color of ACPs in Fig. 1A and Fig. 2B-D to purple to be consistent. In addition, we changed the colors of two filaments in Figs. 2B-D slightly to be consistent with Fig. 2E.

      (2) To help understanding, please include a figure showing how forces are measured.

      We added Fig. S1 in the revised manuscript to explain how the bundle force is calculated.

      (3) It should be possible to extend the scaling arguments to predict what is the crossover myosin density (N_M) in Figure 4a at which the efficiency changes from going as 1/N_M to saturating. 

      As the reviewer might have observed, the slope of the efficiency in Fig. 4A gradually changes, rather than showing a sharp transition. Thus, it is hard to define one crossover myosin density. 

      Similarly, what are the slopes in Figure 6a-b?

      We drew the reference lines in those two plots. Unfortunately, we do not have explanations about the origin of these slopes.

      (4) Some more explanation for the observed values should be added. Figure 4: Why does efficiency plateau at a value close to 0.8 in (A)? 

      We assume that the reviewer meant the plateau of η close to 0.08, not 0.8. Our speculation for the origin of this plateau value is related to L<sub>M</sub> (= 462 nm under the reference condition). Ideally, ~43 motors are required to cover the entire length of the bundle (= 20 μm). Under this condition, η is ~0.023. Although this is not 0.08, we believe that these two values are related to each other. For example, if we increase L<sub>M</sub>, this plateau level would increase. We added the following sentences in the result section of the revised manuscript:

      “The plateau level of η at ~0.08 is related to the minimum number of motors required for saturating an entire bundle, implying that the plateau level would be higher if each motor is longer.”

      Figure 5: Overlapping between motors seems to increase the total force applied by them because of cooperative effects. However, it is not abundantly clear why that should peak at a value of f = 0.06.

      As shown in Fig. 5B, smaller f always results in higher F<sub>tot</sub> due to higher level of cooperative overlap. The minimum value of f we tested in this study was 0.06, so F<sub>tot</sub> was maximal at f = 0.06.

      (5) Why is the network force expected to scale approximately as sqrt(N_M)? Is it because of the 2D geometry where the number of motors along the x or y-direction scale as sqrt(N_M)?

      We initially thought that the weaker dependence of the total force on N<sub>M</sub> was related to the random orientations of motors. However, if the network is fully saturated with motors, the inclusion of more motors will increase forces in both x and y directions almost linearly, resulting in the direct proportionality of F<sub>tot</sub> to N<sub>M</sub>. Our new hypothesis for weaker dependence is consistent with the reviewer’s speculation; the network is not fully saturated even with 1000 motors, so the entire regime shown in Fig. 7B corresponds to that with N<sub>M</sub> < 100 in Fig. 4A where similar weaker dependence on N<sub>M</sub> was observed. We added the following sentence in the result section of the revised manuscript to clarify this point:

      “the average number of motors in each direction which can experience the cooperative overlap would be ~. Maximal N<sub>M</sub> tested with the network was ~2,500, so the dependence of F<sub>tot</sub> on N<sub>M</sub> with the network is similar to that with N<sub>M</sub> < ~50 with the bundle (Fig. 4A).”

      (6) Figures 6 D and A: Figure 6D suggests that there is a more full overlap in the cases where there was a longer bare zone or larger spacing between motor arms. However, the quantification of the total force in A shows that the force is highest for the case where LM was increased by increasing the number of arms. Why do the authors think that is? I would expect from the explanation in Fig 6D that the Lsp and Lbz would be higher than Na in Fig 6A.

      Fig. 6D shows a difference in the level of the cooperative overlap () between two motors. As the reviewer pointed out, the case with more arms shows the lowest , resulting in the lowest as we showed in Fig. S2B. However, as show in in Eq. 7, the total force is a function of both N<sub>a</sub> and . Thus, due to higher N<sub>a</sub> and lower , the force in the case with different N<sub>a</sub> can be similar to that in the case with different L<sub>bz</sub>. In the original manuscript, we had the following sentence to explain how the force can be similar between the two cases: 

      “Thus, was higher (Fig. S2B, blue), resulting in higher F<sub>tot</sub> and η despite smaller N<sub>a</sub>.”

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, the authors use a mechanical model to investigate how the geometry and deformations of myosin II filaments influence their force generation. They introduce a force generation efficiency that is defined as the ratio of the total generated force and the maximal force that the motors can generate. By changing the architecture of the myosin II filaments, they study the force generation efficiency in different systems: two filaments, a disorganized bundle, and a 2D network. In the simple two-filament systems, they found that in the presence of actin crosslinking proteins motors cannot add up their force because of steric hindrances. In the disorganized bundle, the authors identified a critical overlap of motors for cooperative force generation. This overlap is also influenced by the arrangement of the motor on the filaments and influenced by the length of the bare zone between the motor heads.

      Strengths:

      The strength of the study is the identification of organizational principles in myosin II filaments that influence force generation. It provides a complementary mechanistic perspective on the operation of these motor filaments. The force generation efficiency and the cooperative overlap number are quantitative ways to characterize the force generation of molecular motors in clusters and between filaments. These quantities and their conceptual implications are most likely also applicable in other systems.

      Thank you for the comments about the strength of our study. 

      Weaknesses:

      The detailed model that the authors present relies on over 20 numerical parameters that are listed in the supplement. Because of this vast amount of parameters, it is not clear how general the findings are. On the other hand, it was not obvious how specific the model is to myosin II, meaning how well it can describe experimental findings or make measurable predictions. The model seems to be quantitative, but the interpretation and connection to real experiments are rather qualitative in my point of view.

      As the reviewer mentioned, all agent-based computational models for simulating the actin cytoskeleton are inevitably involved with such a large number of parameters. Some of the parameter values are not known well, so we have tuned our parameter values carefully by comparing our results with experimental observations in our previous studies since 2009.We were aware of the importance of rigorous representation of unbinding and walking rates of myosin motors, so we implemented the parallel cluster model, which can predict those rates with consideration of the mechanochemical rates of myosin II, into our model. Thus, we are convincing that our motors represent myosin II.

      In our manuscript, our results were compared with prior observations in Ref. 4 (Thoresen et al., Biophys J, 2013) several times. In particular, larger force generation with more myosin heads per thick filament was consistent between the experiment and our simulations. 

      Our study can make various predictions. First, our study explains why non-muscle myosin II in stress fibers shows focal distributions rather than uniform distributions; if they stay closely, they can generate much larger forces in the stress fibers via the cooperative overlap. Our study also predicts a difference between bipolar structures (found in skeletal muscle myosins and nonmuscle myosins) and side polar structures (found in smooth muscle myosins) in terms of the likelihood of the cooperative overlap. As shown below, myosin filaments with the bipolar structure can add up their forces better than those with the side polar structure when their overlap level is the same.

      Author response image 1.

       

      It was often difficult for me to follow what parameters were changed and what parameters were set to what numerical values when inspecting the curve shown in the figures. The manuscript could be more specific by explicitly giving numbers. For example, in the caption for Figure 6, instead of saying "is varied by changing the number of motor arms, the bare zone length, the spacing between motor arms", the authors could be more specific and give the ranges: "is varied by changing the number of motor arms form ... to .., the bare zone length from .. to..., and the spacing between motor arms from .. to ..".

      This unspecificity is also reflected in the text: "We ran simulations with a variation in either L<sub>sp</sub> or L<sub>bz</sub>" What is the range of this variation? "WhenL<sub>M</sub> was similar" similar to what? "despite different N<sub>M</sub>." What are the different values for N<sub>M</sub>? These are only a few examples that show that the text could be way more specific and quantitative instead of qualitative descriptions.

      We appreciate the comment. In the revised manuscript, we specified the range of the variation in each parameter.

      In the text, after equation (2) the authors discuss assumptions about the binding of the motor to the actin filament. I think these model-related assumptions and explanations should be discussed not in the results section but rather in the "model overview" section.

      Thank you for pointing this out. In the original manuscript, we described all the details of the model in Supplementary Material. We feel that the assumptions about interactions between motors and actin filaments are too detailed information to be included in the model overview section.

      The lines with different colors in Figure 2A are not explained. What systems and parameters do they represent?

      The different colors used in Fig. 2A were used for distinguishing 20 cases. We added the explanation about the colors in the figure caption in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      To guarantee the reproducibility of the results, I recommend that the authors publish their simulation code on GitHub.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion. Following the suggestion, we prepared and posted the code on GitHub as mentioned in the Data Availability of the revised manuscript: The source code of our model is available on GitHub: https://github.com/ktyman2/ThickFilament”

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer 1 (Public review):

      Weaknesses: The interpretation is somewhat model-dependent, and it is unclear if the interpretation is unique. For example, it is unclear if the heterogeneous release probability among sites, silent sites, can explain the results. N estimates out of variance-mean analysis for example may be limited by the availability of postsynaptic receptors.

      To address this criticism, we have added a paragraph in the Discussion outlining the main assumptions underlying our work and how possible deviations from these assumptions may have affected our conclusions. This new paragraph is titled ' Assumptions behind our analysis, and possible limitations of our conclusions'.

      Reviewer 1, Recommendations to Authors:

      Without molecular evidence or anatomical evidence, the model and conclusions may remain as a postulate at this stage. This can be discussed carefully. Also, the study looks a bit narrow regarding the scope, only dealing with RS-DS model vs TS-LS model. Maybe, the authors pick up a bit more qualitative findings that directly support RS-DS model.

      To address these issues, another paragraph has been added to the Discussion titled 'Functional evidence in favor of the RS/DS model at PF-MLI synapses, and remaining uncertainties on the molecular composition and morphological arrangement of docking sites'.

      Minor: Fukaya et al. studied not cerebellar mossy fiber synapses.

      We apologize for this error, which has now been rectified.

      Reviewer 2 (Public review):

      It remains unclear how generalizable the findings are to other types of synapses.

      We agree with the Reviewer: this is a limitation of our study. In the Discussion we have a paragraph titled 'Maximum RRP size for other synaptic types' where we discuss this point. As we say in this paragraph, central synapses are clearly diverse, and the level of applicability of our results across preparations will depend on our ability to extend SV counting to various types of brain synapses. For the moment SV counting has been applied to only two types of synapses: PF-MLI synapses and hMF-IN synapses. We are encouraged by the fact that the simple synapse study by Tanaka et al. (2021), carried out at hMF-IN synapses, offers another example where the ratio between RRP size and N is larger than 1.

      Recommendations to Authors,

      Minor comments:

      The manuscript is at times difficult to read or reads like a review. The introduction could be shortened to concisely outline the motivation and premises for the study. The results and methods sections should not contain excessive interpretation and discussion. Although very informative, it distracts from the simple principal message.

      To address these criticisms, we have shortened the Introduction and parts of the Results section. These changes have resulted in a presentation of Results that is shorter and more focused on data and simulations than in the previous version. Nevertheless, readers need to be informed of ongoing research on docking sites and the principles of sequential models to understand the usefulness of our work. For this reason, we have maintained a theoretical section at the beginning of Results.

      The rationale for the choice of synapse and experimental conditions remains unclear until the discussion. This needs to be clearly addressed at the beginning, in the introduction, or in the results. In particular, the extracellular calcium concentration and the addition of 4-AP to the recording solution should be addressed in the results.

      The reason to choose the PF-MLI synapse is now indicated at the end of the Introduction. The rationale underlying our choice of experimental conditions including the extracellular calcium concentration and the addition of 4-AP is now briefly explained in the beginning the second section of Results (titled 'Maximizing RRP size and its release during AP trains'), and more extensively in the Methods section (as in the previous version of the manuscript).

      Potential confounds of the approach should be discussed (e.g. could a broadened AP in 4-AP alter synchronicity of release, i.e. desynchronization of release, especially during trains. That could be complemented with information on the EPSC kinetics (rise, decay) under different experimental conditions, as well as during train stimulation. How could presynaptic calcium concentration and time course in 4-AP impact the conclusions?

      To study the effects of 4-AP on AP broadening we have performed a new analysis of EPSC latencies in control and in 4-AP. In both cases the first latencies were independent of i. In 4-AP, first latencies displayed a small right shift of 0.2 ms (see additional figure below). This indicates that 4-AP does broaden the AP waveform, but that the extent of this broadening is limited. This new information has been added in the Methods of the revised manuscript.

      As suspected by the Reviewer, the latency distribution changes as a function of i and in the presence of 4-AP. Consistent with earlier findings (Miki et al., 2018), the proportion of 2-step release (with longer latencies) augments as a function of i both in control and in 4-AP. We also find that the value of the fast time constant of the latency distribution,τf, is larger in 4-AP than in control. This last result probably indicates a longer presynaptic calcium entry in 4-AP.

      In the revised version, we describe these results in the Methods section, in a new paragraph titled 'Changes in latency distributions as a function of i and of experimental conditions'.

      While the latency distributions change as a function of i and as a function of experimental conditions, this does not affect our conclusions, because these conclusions are based on the summed number of release events after each AP (or in other words, on the integral of the latency distributions).

      The kinetics of mEPSCs (risetime and decay time) are unchanged by 4-AP or by PTP. Consequently, in a given experiment, we used the same template to perform our deconvolution analysis for all conditions that were examined (starting with 3 mM Cao up to 200 Hz). This information has now been added in Methods.

      Following an AP stimulation, the amount of calcium entry in the presence of 4-AP is presumably much larger than in control. TEA, a weaker K channel blocker than 4-AP at PF-MLI synapses, elicits a marked increase in calcium entry (Malagon et al., 2020). This suggests an even larger increase with 4-AP, even though this has not been directly confirmed in the present work. The enhanced calcium entry translates in an increase in the parameters pr, r and s of our model. The important thing for our study is to increase pr and r as much as possible to promote the emptying of the RRP during trains. Knowing the exact amount of calcium entry and its relation to pr /r increase is not essential for this purpose. Likewise, whether r (and/or s) increase as a function of i is of little practical importance since much of the RRP is emptied already after the second stimulation, at least in the most extreme case (200 Hz stimulation).

      The applicability of this model to other synapses needs to be addressed more thoroughly. This synapse, under physiological conditions, has a very low Pr, and the experimental conditions have to be adjusted dramatically to achieve a high-Pr. How applicable are the conclusions to high-Pr synapses and/or synapses that operate in a multivesicular release regime? Although that might be difficult to test experimentally it should be addressed in the discussion.

      The applicability issue to other synapses has been addressed above, in response to the public comments of the same Reviewer.

      As the Reviewer points out, the PF-MLI synapse has a small P value under physiological conditions. One can speculate that synapses that exhibit a higher P value may have a higher docking site occupancy than PF-MLI synapses. This feature would increase their chance of having a ratio of RRP size over N larger than 1, as it occurs in PF-MLI synapses in high docking occupancy conditions. A sentence making this point has been added to the paragraph titled 'Maximum RRP size for other synaptic types' in the revised manuscript.

      Author response image 1.

      Latency histograms for s1 in control and in the presence of 4-AP. After normalization, the averaged latency histogram in 4-AP displays an additional delay of 0.2 ms, and a slowing of the time constant τf from 0.47 ms to 0.70 ms.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Su et al propose the existence of two mechanisms repressing SBF activity during entry into meiosis in budding yeast. First, a decrease in Swi4 protein levels by a LUTI-dependent mechanism where Ime1 would act closing a negative feedback loop. Second, the sustained presence of Whi5 would contribute to maintaining SBF inhibited under sporulation conditions. The article is clearly written and the experimental approaches used are adequate to the aims of this work. The results obtained are in line with the conclusions reached by the authors but, in my view, they could also be explained by the existing literature and, hence, would not represent a major advance in the field of meiosis regulation.

      We respectfully disagree with the reviewer about their comment that this work can be explained by the existing literature. First, while SWI4LUTI has been previously identified in meiotic cells along with ~ 380 LUTIs, the biological purpose of these alternative mRNA isoforms and their effect on cellular physiology still remain largely unknown. Our manuscript clarifies this gap in understanding for SWI4LUTI. Loss of SWI4LUTI contributes to dysregulation of meiotic entry and does so by failing to properly repress the known inhibitors of meiotic entry, the CLNs. Furthermore, even though Cln1 and Cln2 have been previously shown to antagonize meiosis, the mechanisms that restrict their activity was unclear prior to our study.

      We recognize work done by others demonstrating Whi5-dependent repression of SBF during mitotic G1/S transition (De Bruin et al., 2004; Costanzo et al., 2004). We further examined Whi5’s involvement during meiotic entry and found that it acts in conjunction with the LUTI-based mechanism to restrict SBF activity. Combined loss of both mechanisms results in the increased expression of G1 cyclins, decreased expression of early meiotic genes, and a delay in meiotic entry (Figure 6). Neither mechanism was previously known to regulate meiotic entry. Our study not only adds to our broader understanding of gene regulation during meiosis but also raises additional questions regarding how LUTIs regulate gene expression and function.

      Regarding the first mechanism, Fig 1 shows that Swi4 decreases very little after 1-2h in sporulation medium, whereas G1-cyclin expression is strongly repressed very rapidly under these conditions (panel D and work by others). This fact dampens the functional relevance of Swi4 downregulation as a causal agent of G1 cyclin repression.

      Reviewer 1 expresses concern for the observation that by 2 h in sporulation media there is a 32% decrease in Swi4-3V5 protein abundance compared to 0 h in SPO. This is consistent with the range of protein level decrease typically accomplished by LUTI-based gene regulation (Chen et al., 2017; Chia et al., 2017; Tresenrider et al., 2021), and while it is a modest reduction, it is consistent across replicates. Furthermore, we don’t make the argument that reduction in Swi4 levels alone is the sole regulator of G1 cyclin levels. In fact, we report that in addition to Swi4 downregulation, Whi5 also functions to restrict SBF activity during meiotic entry, thereby ensuring G1 cyclin repression.

      In addition, the LUTI-deficient SWI4 mutant does not cause any noticeable relief in CLN2 repression, arguing against the relevance of this mechanism in the repression of G1-cyclin transcription during entry into meiosis. The authors propose a second mechanism where Whi5 would maintain SBF inactive under sporulation conditions. The role of Whi5 as a negative regulator of the SBF regulon is well known. On the other hand, the double WHI5-AA SWI4-dLUTI mutant does not upregulate CLN2, the G1 cyclin with the strongest negative effect on sporulation, raising serious doubts on the functional relevance of this backup mechanism during entry into meiosis.

      Due to replicate variance, CLN2 did not make the cut by our mRNA-seq data analysis as a significant hit. To address reviewer 1’s final point we opted for the “gold standard” of reverse transcription coupled with qPCR to measure CLN2 transcript levels in the double mutant ∆LUTI; WHI5-AA and the wild-type control. This revealed that CLN2 levels were significantly increased in the double mutant compared to wild type at 2 h in SPO (Author Response Image 1, *, p = 0.0288, two-tailed t-test).

      Author response image 1.

      Wild type (UB22199) and ∆LUTI;WHI5-AA (UB25428) cells were collected to perform RT-qPCR for CLN2 transcript abundance. Transcript abundance was quantified using primer sets specific for each respective gene from three technical replicates for each biological replicate. Quantification was performed in reference to PFY1 and then normalized to wild-type control. FC = fold change. Experiments were performed twice using biological replicates, mean value plotted with range. Differences in wild type versus ∆LUTI; WHI5-AA transcript levels compared with a two-tailed t-test (*, p = 0.0288)

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript highlights a mechanistic insight into meiotic initiation in budding yeast. In this study, the authors addressed a genetic link between mitotic cell cycle regulator SBF (the Swi4-Swi6 complex) and a meiosis inducing regulator Ime1 in the context of meiotic initiation. The authors' comprehensive analyses with cytology, imaging, RNA-seq using mutant strains lead the authors to conclude that Swi4 levels regulates Ime1-Ume6 interaction to activate expression of early meiosis genes for meiotic initiation. The major findings in this paper are that (1) the higher level of Swi4, a subunit of SBF transcription factor for mitotic cell cycle regulation, is the limiting factor for mitosis-to-meiosis transition; (2) G1 cyclins (Cln1, Cln2), that are expressed under SBF, inhibit Ime1-Ume6 interaction under overexpression of SWI4, which consequently leads to downregulation of early meiosis genes; (3) expression of SWI4 is regulated by LUTI-based transcription in the SWI4 locus that impedes expression of canonical SWI4 transcripts; (4) expression of SWI4 LUTI is likely negatively regulated by Ime1; (5) Action of Swi4 is negatively regulated by Whi5 (homologous to Rb)-mediated inhibition of SBF, which is required for meiotic initiation. Thus, the authors proposed that meiotic initiation is regulated under the balance of mitotic cell cycle regulator SBF and meiosis-specific transcription factor Ime1.

      Strengths:

      The most significant implication in their paper is that meiotic initiation is regulated under the balance of mitotic cell cycle regulator and meiosis-specific transcription factor. This finding will provide a mechanistic insight in initiation of meiosis not only into the budding yeast also into mammals. The manuscript is overall well written, logically presented and raises several insights into meiotic initiation in budding yeast. Therefore, the manuscript should be open for the field. I would like to raise the following concerns, though they are not mandatory to address. However, it would strengthen their claims if the authors could technically address and revise the manuscript by putting more comprehensive discussion.

      Weaknesses:

      The authors showed that increased expression of the SBF targets, and reciprocal decrease in expression of meiotic genes upon SWI4 overexpression at 2 h in SPO (Figure 2F). However, IME1 was not found as a DEG in Supplemental Table 1. Meanwhile, IME1 transcript level was decreased at 2 h SPO condition in pATG8-CLN2 cells in Fig S4C.

      Now this reviewer still wonders with confusion whether expression of IME1 transcripts per se is directly or in directly suppressed under SBF-activated gene expression program at 2 h SPO in pATG8-SWI4 and pATG8-CLN2 cells. This reviewer wonders how Fig S4C data reconciles with the model summarized in Fig 6F.

      One interpretation could be that persistent overexpression of G1 cyclin caused active mitotic cell cycle, and consequently delayed exit from mitotic cell cycle, which may have given rise to an apparent reduction of cell population that was expressing IME1. For readers to better understand, it would be better to explain comprehensively this issue in the main text.

      We believe there was an oversight here. In supplemental table 1, IME1 expression is reported as significantly decreased. The volcano plot shown below also highlights this change (Author response image 2).

      Author response image 2.

      Volcano plot of DE-Seq2 analysis for ∆LUTI;WHI5-AA versus wild type. Dashed line indicates padj (p value) = 0.05. Analysis was performed using mRNA-seq from two biological replicates. Wild type (UB22199) and ∆LUTI;WHI5-AA (UB25428) cells were collected at 2 h in SPO. SBF targets (pink) (Iyer et al., 2001) and early meiotic genes (blue) defined by (Brar et al., 2012). Darker pink or darker blue, labeled dots are well studied targets in either gene set list.

      The % of cells with nuclear Ime1 was much reduced in pATG8-CLN2 cells (Fig 2B) than in pATG8-SWI4 cells (Fig 4C). Is the Ime1 protein level comparable or different between pATG8-CLN2 strain and pATG8-SWI4 strain? Since it is difficult to compare the quantifications of Ime1 levels in Fig S1D and Fig S4B, it would be better to comparably show the Ime1 protein levels in pATG8-CLN2 and pATG8-SWI4 strains.

      Further, it is uncertain how pATG8-CLN2 cells mimics the phenotype of pATG8-SWI4 cells in terms of meiotic entry. It would be nice if the authors could show RNA-seq of pATG8-CLN2/WT and/or quantification of the % of cells that enter meiosis in pATG8-CLN2.

      Analyzing bulk Ime1 protein levels across a population of cells (Author response image 3) reveals that overexpression of CLN2 causes a more severe decrease in Ime1 levels than overexpression of SWI4. This is consistent with our observation that pATG8-CLN2 has a more severe impact on meiotic entry than pATG8-SWI4. The higher CLN2 levels (Author response image 4) likely accounts for the observed difference in severity of phenotype between the two mutants.

      Author response image 3.

      Samples from strain wild type (UB22199), pATG8-SWI4 (UB2226), pATG8-CLN2 (UB25959) and were collected between 0-4 hours (h) in sporulation medium (SPO) and immunoblots were performed using α-GFP. Hxk2 was used a loading control.

      Author response image 4.

      Wild type (UB22199), pATG8-SWI4 (UB2226), pATG8-CLN2 (UB25959) cells were collected to perform RT-qPCR for CLN2 transcript abundance. Quantification was performed in reference to PFY1 and then normalized to wild-type control. FC = fold change.

      The authors stated that reduced Ime1-Ume6 interaction is a primary cause of meiotic entry defect by CLN2 overexpression (Line 320-322, Fig 4J-L). This data is convincing. However, the authors also showed that GFP-Ime1 protein level was decreased compared to WT in pATG8-CLN2 cells by WB (Fig S4A).

      Compared to wild type, pATG8-CLN2 cells have lower levels of Ime1. Consequently, reviewer 2 suggests that this reduction may be responsible for the observed meiotic defect. However, we tested this possibility and found it not to be the primary cause of the meiotic defect in pATG8-CLN2 cells. As shown in Figure S4A, when IME1 was overexpressed from the pCUP1 promoter, Ime1 protein levels were similar between wild-type and pATG8-CLN2 cells. Despite this similarity, we still observed a decrease in nuclear Ime1 (Figure 4F) and no rescue in sporulation (Figure 4A). Therefore, the reduction in Ime1 protein levels alone cannot explain the meiotic defect caused by CLN2 overexpression.

      Further, GFP-Ime1 signals were overall undetectable through nuclei and cytosol in pATG8-CLN2 cells (Fig 4B), and accordingly cells with nuclear Ime1 were reduced (Fig 4C). Although the authors raised a possibility that the meiotic entry defect in the pATG8-CLN2 mutant arises from downregulation of IME1 expression (Line 282-283), causal relationship between meiotic entry defect and CLN2 overexpression is still not clear.

      As reviewer 2 comments, we initially considered the possibility that meiotic entry defect induced by CLN2 overexpression could be attributed to decreased IME1 expression. However, in the following paragraph in the manuscript, we demonstrate equalizing IME1 transcript levels using the pCUP1-IME1 allele does not rescue the meiotic defect caused by CLN2 overexpression. Consequently, we conclude that the decrease in IME1 transcript levels alone cannot explain the meiotic defect caused by increased CLN2 levels.

      Is the Ime1 protein level reduced in the pATG8-CLN2;UME6-⍺GFP strain compared to WT? It would be better to comparably show the Ime1 protein levels in the pATG8-CLN2 strain and the pATG8-CLN2;UME6-⍺GFP strain by WB. Also, it would be nice if the authors could show quantification of the % of cells that enter meiosis in the pATG8-CLN2;UME6-⍺GFP strain to see how and whether artificial tethering of Ime1 to Ume6 rescued normal meiosis program rather than simply showing % sporulation in Fig4A.

      We do not agree with the suggestion to compare the pATG8-CLN2;UME6-⍺GFP with wild type as the kinetics of meiosis is rather different. The more appropriate comparison is UME6-⍺GFP and pATG8-CLN2;UME6-⍺GFP which shows GFP-Ime1 bulk protein levels are slightly lower (Author response image 5). However, when we use a more sensitive measurement of meiotic entry through the nuclear accumulation of Ime1 in single cells, as illustrated in Figure 4L, it becomes evident that the Ume6-Ime1 tether is capable of restoring nuclear Ime1 levels, even in the presence of CLN2 overexpression. Given that these cells exhibited wild type levels of nuclear Ime1 and underwent sporulation after 24 hours, we make the fair assumption that they have successfully initiated the meiotic program.

      Author response image 5.

      Wild type (UB22199), pATG8-SWI4 (UB35106), UME6-⍺GFP (UB35300), and UME6-⍺GFP; pATG8-CLN2 (UB35177) cells collected between 0-3 hours (h) in sporulation medium (SPO) and immunoblots were performed using α-GFP. Hxk2 was used a loading control

      The authors showed Ume6 binding at the SWI4LUTI promoter (Figure 5K). However, since Ume6 forms a repressive form with Rpd3 and Sin3a and binds to target genes independently of Ime1, Ume6 binding at the SWI4LUTI promoter bind does not necessarily represent Ime1-Ume6 binding there. Instead, it would be better to show Ime1 ChIP-seq at the SWI4LUTI promoter.

      We agree with reviewer 2 that Ime1 ChIP would be the ideal measurement. Unfortunately, this has proved to be technically challenging. To address this limitation, we utilized a published Ume6 ChIP-seq dataset along with a published UME6-T99N RNA-seq dataset. Cells carrying the UME6-T99N allele are unable to induce the expression of early meiotic transcripts due to lack of Ime1 binding to Ume6 (Bowdish et al., 1995). Accordingly, RNA-seq analysis should reveal whether or not the LUTIs identified by Ume6 ChIP are indeed regulated by Ime1-Ume6 during meiosis. For SWI4LUTI, this is exactly what we observe. Not only is there Ume6 binding at the SWI4LUTI promoter (Figure 5K), but there is also a significant decrease in SWI4LUTI expression in UME6-T99N cells under meiotic conditions (Figure S5). Based on these data, we conclude that the Ime1-Ume6 complex is responsible for regulating SWI4LUTI expression during meiosis.

      The authors showed ∆LUTI mutant and WHI5-AA mutant did not significantly change the expression of SBF targets nor early meiotic genes relative to wildtype (Figure 6A, C). Accordingly, they concluded that LUTI- or Whi5-based repression of SBF alone was not sufficient to cause a delay in meiotic entry (Line451-452), and perturbation of both pathways led to a significant delay in meiotic entry (Figure 6E). This reviewer wonders whether Ime1 expression level and nuclear localization of Ime1 was normal in ∆LUTI mutant and WHI5-AA mutant.

      Based on our observations in Figure 4, Ime1 protein and expression levels were not reliable indicators of meiotic entry. Consequently, we opted for a more downstream and functionally relevant measure of meiotic entry, which involved time-lapse fluorescence imaging of Rec8, an Ime1 target.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The authors would like to mention previous work showing that G1-cyclin overexpression decreases the expression and nuclear accumulation of Ime1 (Colomina et al 1999 EMBO J 18:320). In this work, the interaction between Ime1 and Ume6 had been found to be resistant to G1-cyclin expression, arguing against a direct effect on the recruitment of Ime1 at meiotic promoters. Alternatively, differences in the experimental approaches used could be discussed to explain this apparent discrepancy.

      To clarify, in the paper that reviewer 1 is referring to (Colomina et al., 1999), the authors determine that the interaction between Ime1 and Ume6 is regulated by the presence of a non-fermentable carbon source. Additional work by others reveals that Ime1 undergoes phosphorylation by the protein kinases Rim11 and Rim15, promoting its nuclear localization and enabling interaction with Ume6 (Vidan and Mitchell, 1997; Pnueli et al., 2004; Malathi et al., 1999, 1997). Furthermore, both Rim11 and Rim15 kinase activities are inhibited by the presence of glucose via the PKA pathway (Pedruzzi et al., 2003; Rubin-Bejerano et al., 2004; Vidan and Mitchell, 1997). Accordingly, the elimination of cyclins in the presence of a non-fermentable carbon source (glucose) in (Colomina et al., 1999) is unlikely to result in an interaction between Ime1 and Ume6, as Rim11 and Rim15 remain repressed. Removal of cyclins in acetate does not further increase Ime1-Ume6 interaction leading the authors to conclude that G1 cyclins do not block Ime1 function through its interaction with Ume6. This work however uses loss of function (removal of G1 cyclins) to study the G1 cyclins’ effect on Ime1-Ume6 interaction while using timepoints that are well beyond meiotic entry. Additionally, Ime1-Ume6 interaction is being tested using yeast-two hybrid analysis with just the proposed interaction domain of Ime1 (amino acids 270-360). Therefore, the interpretation that G1 cyclins are dispensable for regulating the interaction between Ime1 and Ume6 is unclear from this work alone.

      There are many differences that can explain the discrepancy between our work and (Colomina et al., 1999). Our work uses increased expression of cyclins during meiotic entry. Additionally, in our study, we collected timepoints to measure meiotic entry (2 h in SPO) and sporulation (gamete formation) efficiency (24 h in SPO). Finally, we are using the endogenous, full length Ime1. These differences could very well explain the discrepancy with previous work. Lastly, in our discussion we acknowledge the lack of CDK consensus phosphorylation sites on Ime1. Therefore, it is most likely that G1 cyclins are not directly phosphorylating Ime1 and that other factors like Rim11 and Rim15 could be direct targets of the G1 cyclins, considering their involvement in the phosphorylation of Ime1-Ume6, as well as their role in regulating Ime1 localization and its interaction with Ume6. We have included these points in the revised manuscript (lines 547-551).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      This reviewer thinks that the findings in this paper are of general interest to meiosis field and help understanding the mechanism of meiotic initiation in mammals. The way of the current manuscript seems to be written for limited budding yeast scientists, and should not limited to the interest by the budding yeast scientists. Thus, it would be better to discuss more about what is known about the mechanism of initiation of meiosis not only in budding yeast but also in other species to share their finding to more broad scientists using other organisms.

      We appreciate reviewer 2’s comment and have added more discussion about the parallels between yeast and mammalian systems in meiotic initiation (lines 613-624).

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The effect of overexpression of Swi4 is tested for MI and MII (Fig1F): this is a very indirect readout of meiotic entry. The authors could present Rec8 localization (Fig2I) at this stage. However, this is still a superficial description of the meiotic phenotype: is the phenotype only a delay or is the meiotic prophase altered. It is specifically important to analyse this in more detail to answer whether the overexpression of Swi4 leads to an identical phenotype to the one of CLN2. Also the comparison between overexpression of Swi4 and Cln2 is difficult to evaluate: what is the level of CLN2 when SwI4 is overexpressed compared to CLN2 overexpression. The percentage of nuclear Ime1 is 50% vs 5% when Swi4 or Cln2 are overexpressed. What is the interpretation? What are the levels of Ime1? (Y axis of quantifications not comparable, see also comment for Fig5F,H)

      CLN2 is expressed at a much higher level in pATG8-CLN2 cells relative to pATG8-SWI4 (Author Response Image 4). Therefore, we don’t expect identical phenotypes, but rather a more severe deficiency in meiotic entry upon CLN2 overexpression. The key experiment that establishes causality between SWI4 and CLNs is reported in Figure 3, where deletion of either CLN1 or CLN2 rescues the meiotic entry delay exerted by SWI4 overexpression.

      Fig3EF: What is the phenotype of Cln1 and Cln2 without overexpression of Swi4?

      Meiotic entry is not faster in cln1∆ or cln2∆ cells compared to wild-type. We included these data in Supplemental Figure 3 and made the relevant changes in the manuscript (lines 257-261).

      Fig4F: Need a control with CLN2 overexpression only.

      A control with only CLN2 overexpression (pATG8-CLN2) is not appropriate since these meiotic time course experiments are synchronized using the pCUP1-IME1 allele. It would be a misleading comparison since the two meiosis would have different kinetics. Figure 4F reports that despite similar IME1 transcript levels and Ime1 protein levels, CLN2 overexpressing cells still have reduced nuclear Ime1. Since side-by-side comparison of pATG8-CLN2 and pCUP1-IME1 is not possible, we chose to measure sporulation efficiency at 24 h in Figure 4A. These data together suggest that elevated IME1 transcript and protein levels cannot rescue the defects associated with increased CLN2 expression.

      Fig5E: in wild type, by Northern blot, Swi4canon level is increasing during meiosis, not decreasing?, whereas protein level is decreasing, what is the interpretation?

      Northern data is less quantitative than smFISH, which show that SWI4canon transcript levels are significantly lower in meiosis compared to vegetative cells (Figure 5D). We also note that the Northern blot data were acquired from unsynchronized meiotic cells and could have additional limitations based on the population-based nature of the assay. Finally, additional analysis of a transcript leader sequencing (TL-seq) dataset from synchronized cells (Tresenrider et al., 2021) further confirms the decrease in SWI4canon transcript levels upon meiotic entry. (Author response image 6).

      Author response image 6.

      TL-seq data from (Tresenrider et al. 2021) visualized on IGV at the SWI4 locus. Two timepoints are plotted including premeiotic before IME1 induction (pink) and meiotic prophase or after IME1 induction (blue).

      Fig5F, H. This quantification needs duplicates for validation.

      Replicates are submitted for every blot in this paper to eLIFE.It can be found in the shared Dropbox folder to the editors (named Raw-blots-for-eLIFE).

      Fig5F, H. Why are the wild type values so different?

      The immunoblotting done between Figure 5F and Figure 5H are on separate blots and therefore should not be compared. Additionally, these values are not absolute measurements of wild type values of Swi4-3V5 and therefore we should not expect them to be the same. Any comparisons done of relative amounts of Swi4-3V5 are always done on the same blot and normalized to a loading control, hexokinase.

      FigS5: What is the effect of the Ume6-T99N on Swi4 protein level and on meiotic entry? Is the backup mechanism proposed active?

      We haven’t measured Swi4 protein levels in the UME6-T99N background but given that this mutation is known to disrupt the interaction between Ime1 and Ume6, we expect a similar trend to that reported in Figure 5I (pCUP1-IME1 uninduced).

      What is the evidence that Swi4/6 is a E2F homolog? What is the homology at the protein level?

      While there is no sequence homology between SBF and E2F there is remarkable similarity between metazoans and yeast in terms of the regulation of the G1/S transition (reviewed in Bertoli et al., 2013). E2F and SBF are both repressed before the G1/S transition by the inhibitors Rb and Whi5, respectfully (Costanzo et al., 2004; De Bruin et al., 2004; Hasan et al., 2014). During G1/S transition, a cyclin dependent kinase phosphorylates and inactivates these inhibitors. We have carefully edited our language in the manuscript to “functional homology” instead of just “homology”.

      FigS3 is missing

      Each supplemental figure was matched to its corresponding main figure. In the original submission, we didn’t have Figure S3. However, the revised manuscript now contains FigS3.

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      Bowdish, K.S., H.E. Yuan, and A.P. Mitchell. 1995. Positive control of yeast meiotic genes by the negative regulator UME6. Mol. Cell. Biol. 15:2955–2961. doi:10.1128/mcb.15.6.2955.

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      De Bruin, R.A.M., W.H. McDonald, T.I. Kalashnikova, J. Yates, and C. Wittenberg. 2004. Cln3 activates G1-specific transcription via phosphorylation of the SBF bound repressor Whi5. Cell. 117:887–898. doi:10.1016/j.cell.2004.05.025.

      Chen, J., A. Tresenrider, M. Chia, D.T. McSwiggen, G. Spedale, V. Jorgensen, H. Liao, F.J. Van Werven, and E. Ünal. 2017. Kinetochore inactivation by expression of a repressive mRNA. Elife. 6:1–31. doi:10.7554/eLife.27417.

      Chia, M., A. Tresenrider, J. Chen, G. Spedale, V. Jorgensen, E. Ünal, and F.J. van Werven. 2017. Transcription of a 5’ extended mRNA isoform directs dynamic chromatin changes and interference of a downstream promoter. Elife. 6:1–23. doi:10.7554/eLife.27420.

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      Costanzo, M., J.L. Nishikawa, X. Tang, J.S. Millman, O. Schub, K. Breitkreuz, D. Dewar, I. Rupes, B. Andrews, and M. Tyers. 2004. CDK activity antagonizes Whi5, an inhibitor of G1/S transcription in yeast. Cell. 117:899–913. doi:10.1016/j.cell.2004.05.024.

      Hasan, M., S. Brocca, E. Sacco, M. Spinelli, P. Elena, L. Matteo, A. Lilia, and M. Vanoni. 2014. A comparative study of Whi5 and retinoblastoma proteins : from sequence and structure analysis to intracellular networks. 4:1–24. doi:10.3389/fphys.2013.00315.

      Iyer, V.R., C.E. Horak, P.O. Brown, D. Botstein, V.R. Iyer, M. Snyder, and C.S. Scafe. 2001. Genomic binding sites of the yeast cell-cycle transcription factors SBF and MBF. Nature. 409:533–538. doi:10.1038/35054095.

      Malathi, K., Y. Xiao, and A.P. Mitchell. 1997. Interaction of yeast repressor-activator protein Ume6p with glycogen synthase kinase 3 homolog Rim11p. Mol. Cell. Biol. 17:7230–7236. doi:10.1128/mcb.17.12.7230.

      Malathi, K., Y. Xiao, and A.P. Mitchell. 1999. Catalytic roles of yeast GSK3β/shaggy homolog Rim11p in meiotic activation. Genetics. 153:1145–1152. doi:10.1093/genetics/153.3.1145.

      Pedruzzi, I., F. Dubouloz, E. Cameroni, V. Wanke, J. Roosen, J. Winderickx, and C. De Virgilio. 2003. TOR and PKA Signaling Pathways Converge on the Protein Kinase Rim15 to Control Entry into G0. Mol. Cell. 12:1607–1613. doi:10.1016/S1097-2765(03)00485-4.

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study by Wang et al. identifies a new type of deacetylase, CobQ, in Aeromonas hydrophila. Notably, the identification of this deacetylase reveals a lack of homology with eukaryotic counterparts, thus underscoring its unique evolutionary trajectory within the bacterial domain.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript convincingly illustrates CobQ's deacetylase activity through robust in vitro experiments, establishing its distinctiveness from known prokaryotic deacetylases. Additionally, the authors elucidate CobQ's potential cooperation with other deacetylases in vivo to regulate bacterial cellular processes. Furthermore, the study highlights CobQ's significance in the regulation of acetylation within prokaryotic cells.

      Weaknesses:

      While the manuscript is generally well-structured, some clarification and some minor corrections are needed.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      In recent years, lots of researchers have tried to explore the existence of new acetyltransferase and deacetylase by using specific antibody enrichment technologies and high-resolution mass spectrometry. This study adds to this effort. The authors studied a novel Zn2+- and NAD+-independent KDAC protein, AhCobQ, in Aeromonas hydrophila. They studied the biological function of AhCobQ by using a biochemistry method and used MS identification technology to confirm it. The results extend our understanding of the regulatory mechanism of bacterial lysine acetylation modifications. However, I find their conclusion to be a little speculative, and unfortunately, it also doesn't totally support the conclusion that the authors provided. In addition, regarding the figure arrangement, lots of the supplementary figures are not mentioned, and tables are not all placed in context.

      Major concerns:

      - In the opinion of this reviewer, is a little arbitrary to come to the title "Aeromonas hydrophila CobQ is a new type of NAD+- and Zn2+-independent protein lysine deacetylase in prokaryotes." This should be modified to delete the "in the prokaryotes", unless the authors get new or more evidence in the other prokaryotes for the existence of the AhCobQ.

      Thanks for your suggestions. " in the prokaryotes " has been deleted in the revised manuscript.

      - I was confused about the arrangement of the supplementary results. There are no citations for Figures S9-S19.

      Thank you very much for your suggestion. We have made revisions and highlighted in the undated manuscript.

      - No data are included for Tables S1-S6.;

      Dear reviewer, sorry to confuse you. We have included the Supplementary Tables in the undated manuscript.

      - The load control is not all integrated. All of the load controls with whole PAGE gel or whole membrane western blot results should be provided. Without these whole results, it is not convincing to come to the conclusion that the authors have.

      Dear reviewer, thanks for your suggestion. We have meticulously incorporated the complete PVDF membranes from our Western blot experiments into Supplementary Material 1. Furthermore, we have included the Coomassie Blue R-350 staining outcomes of these PVDF membranes, post-Western blot detection, as a loading control in accordance with the protocol outlined in the reference by Charlotte et al. (Journal of Proteome Research, 2011, 10:1416–1419).

      - The materials & methods section should be thoroughly reviewed. It is unclear to me what exactly the authors are describing in the method. All the experimental designs and protocols should be described in detail, including growth conditions, assay conditions, purification conditions, etc.

      Dear reviewer, thanks for your valuable comments. We have carefully reviewed the entire manuscript and made revisions, highlighted in red.

      - Relevant information should be included about the experiments performed in the figure legends, such as experimental conditions, replicates, etc. Often it is not clear what was done based on the figure legend description.

      Thank you very much for your suggestion. We have made revisions and highlighted in red.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study reports on a novel NAD+ and Zn2+-independent protein lysine deacetylase (KDAC) in Aeromonas hydrophila, termed AhCobQ (AHA_1389). This protein is annotated as a CobQ/CobB/MinD/ParA family protein and does not show similarity with known NAD+-dependent or Zn2+-dependent KDACs. The authors show that AhCobQ has NAD+ and Zn2+-independent deacetylase activity with acetylated BSA by western blot and MS analyses. They also provide evidence that the 195-245 aa region of AhCobQ is responsible for the deacetylase activity, which is conserved in some marine prokaryotes and has no similarity with eukaryotic proteins. They identified target proteins of AhCobQ deacetylase by proteomic analysis and verified the deacetylase activity using site-specific acetyllysine-incorporated target proteins. Finally, they show that AhCobQ activates isocitrate dehydrogenase by deacetylation at K388.

      Strengths:

      The finding of a new type of KDAC has a valuable impact on the field of protein acetylation. The characters (NAD+ and Zn2+-independent deacetylase activity in an unknown domain) shown in this study are very unexpected.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) As the characters of AhCobQ are very unexpected, to convince readers, MSMS data would be needed to exactly detect deacetylation at the target site in deacetylase activity assays. The authors show the MSMS data in assays with acetylated BSA, but other assays only rely on western blot.

      (2) They prepared site-specific Kac proteins and used them in deacetylase activity assays. The incorporation of acetyllysine at the target site needs to be confirmed by MSMS and shown as supplementary data.

      (3) The authors imply that the 195-245 aa region of AhCobQ may represent a new domain responsible for deacetylase activity. The feature of the region would be of interest but is not sufficiently described in Figure 5. The amino acid sequence alignments with representative proteins with conserved residues would be informative. It would be also informative if the modeled structure predicted by AlphaFold is shown and the structural similarity with known deacetylases is discussed.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) The protein molecules of AhCobB and AhCobQ are greater than 45 kDa. But the gene sequences don't seem to match. Please explain.

      We are sorry to confuse you. The vector used for the purification of CobB and CobQ in the manuscript is pET-32a, which carries the TrxA fusion protein and is approximately 20kDa in size. Therefore, the final molecular weight of recombinant AhCobB and AhCobQ is 48.3(28.3+ ~20kDa) and 49.8 (29.8+ ~20kDa), respectively.

      (2) Figure 7: The gels look very smeary. Please explain.

      Dear esteemed reviewer, in our study, we have meticulously crafted recombinant site-specific Kac proteins utilizing an innovative two-plasmid system, grounded on the seminal work published in Nature Chemical Biology (2017, 13(12): 1253-1260), which introduced the genetic encoding of Nᵋ-acetyllysine into recombinant proteins. However, we have encountered a prevalent challenge—the occurrence of protein truncation due to premature translation termination at the reassigned codon. This phenomenon not only diminishes protein yields, as highlighted in ChemBioChem (2017, 18(20): 1973-1983), but also plagues many recombinant proteins with a troublesome backdrop in Western Blot (WB) outcomes.

      Despite our rigorous approach, involving at least two independent repetitions for WB analysis of site-specific Kac proteins, yielding consistent results, we acknowledge that the overall quality of these WB assays remains suboptimal. This variability is inherently tied to the intrinsic properties of the target proteins themselves. Illustratively, the WB outcomes for proteins such as ENO and ICD exhibit notable differences in quality across biological replicates, emphasizing the complexity and nuances involved in this process.

      Thus, while our methodology remains robust and reproducible, we are mindful of the limitations imposed by the nature of the proteins under investigation and strive to continually refine our approaches to mitigate these challenges.

      (3) To ensure that the phenotype shown in Figure 1 is not due to polar effects, results of supplementing complementary strains should be provided.

      Thank you for your suggestion. We have constructed a complement strain and tested the bacterial migration ability. As shown in the Figure S1, the complement strain does not affect the physiological phenotype mentioned above.

      (4) The caption to Figure 8 includes * and *** to indicate significance levels, but only *** appears in the picture.

      Thank you for your suggestion. It has been modified and highlighted in red.

      (5) Has the mechanistic role of lysine 388 in ICD been characterized?

      Thank you for your invaluable professional insights. Indeed, the acetylation sites of ICD have been established to exert a significant influence on its enzymatic activity. Sumana Venkat et al., in their seminal work published in the Journal of Molecular Biology (2018, 430(13): 1901-1911), convincingly demonstrated that the acetylation of specific lysine residues—K100, K230, K55, and K350—in ICD proteins from E. coli serves as a negative regulatory mechanism for enzyme activity. Intriguingly, the functional implications of the Kac modification on K387 (corresponding to the K388 site in ICD from A. hydrophila ATCC 7966, as featured in this manuscript) remain an uncharted territory.

      Our experimental endeavors have illuminated that the K388 site of ICD in A. hydrophila holds the potential to modulate enzymatic activity and is under the regulatory influence of AhCobQ.

      (6) The format of the references is not uniform enough, for example, some journal names are abbreviated, and some are not, please check and correct.

      Thank you for your suggestion. It has been modified and highlighted in red.

      (7) Page 23, line 13, gene not expressed in italics, please correct.

      Thank you for your suggestion. It has been modified and highlighted in red.

      (8) Figure S8 does not appear to match the gene size.

      We are sorry to confuse you. The vector used for the purification of recombinant protein in the manuscript is pET-32a, which carries the TrxA fusion protein and is approximately 20kDa in size. Therefore, the final molecular weight of recombinant protein is 25.5(5.5+ ~20kDa).

      (9) The format of the two figures in Figure S10 is not uniform.

      Thank you for your suggestion. It has been modified and highlighted in red.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor concerns:

      L147, L177 - Please arrange the results as they are shown in the content sequentially. For example, rename Figure S2 with Figure S1.

      Thank you for your suggestion. It has been modified and highlighted in red.

      L174 Figure 2D - There is no big change in the acetylation between the wild type and ahcobQ mutant from Figure 2D, but the ahcobB mutant is.

      I am extremely grateful for your insightful comment. As clearly depicted in the right panel of Figure 2D, the overall Kac protein levels in both the ahcobQ and ahcobB knockout strains exhibit a marked elevation compared to the wild-type strain, despite equivalent loading of total cellular proteins (the left panel of Figure 2D). Notably, this increase is particularly pronounced among proteins with a molecular weight below 35 kDa. We wholeheartedly concur with your perspective that the deletion of ahcobB leads to a more substantial enhancement in Kac protein levels, suggesting CobB may play a pivotal role in regulating a broader spectrum of acetylated proteins or Kac sites. This hypothesis is further strengthened by subsequent mass spectrometry analyses, which lend additional credence to our shared understanding.

      L174-187, L795 - Please show the whole membrane (or PAGE gel) of the loading control of CobB, and CobQ, except for the Kac-BSA.

      Dear esteemed reviewer, we have thoroughly revised our submission to include the full western blot (WB) membrane for all figures and supplementary figures within the updated Supplementary Material 1. Additionally, we would like to clarify a few crucial points to ensure transparency and accuracy.

      Firstly, in Figure 2D, we present WB results solely pertaining to whole-cell samples from cobB or cobQ mutant strains. Consequently, these findings do not directly correlate with recombinant CobB or CobQ proteins.

      Secondly, the objective of Figure 2 is to validate the lysine deacetylase activity of AhCobQ protein through a qualitative, rather than quantitative, experimental approach. Hence, the crucial loading control lies in the amount of Kac-BSA, rather than CobB or CobQ. Prior to conducting the in vitro deacetylase assay, we ensured equal protein concentrations of purified CobB or CobQ using BCA assay, adhering to the protocol's specified deacetylase-to-Kac-BSA loading ratio of 1:5. However, this ratio renders the deacetylase (CobB or CobQ) undetectable on Coomassie Blue R-350-stained blots or WB membranes (as detailed in the whole WB membrane in Supplementary Material 1).

      To reinforce our observations, we reiterated the analysis of protein samples by subjecting them once again to SDS-PAGE, maintaining the same loading quantity as utilized in the preceding western blotting experiment shown in Figure 2E. As Author response image 1 clearly illustrates, the CobB/CobQ bands are indeed discernible, albeit they exhibit significantly fainter intensities when compared to the Kac-BSA bands. Notably, upon reviewing the full strained PVDF membrane presented in Supplementary Material 1, we find that the CobB/CobQ bands are not readily visible. This observation can be attributed to the potential loss of proteins during the transfer process from SDS-PAGE to the PVDF membrane.

      Author response image 1.

      The SDS-PAGE gel displayed the loading amounts of Kac-BSA and CobB/CobQ.

      Furthermore, recognizing the potential for confusion given the similar molecular weights of CobB (257aa) and CobQ (264aa, excluding fusion tags), we conducted a comparative analysis of deacetylase activity between His-tagged and GST-fused recombinant CobQ proteins. Encouragingly, both variants exhibited deacetylase activity (as presented in Figure S5 of the revised manuscript), thereby excluding any influence from nonspecific proteins that might have contaminated the purification process.

      We hope these clarifications and additions to our submission address your concerns and enhance the overall quality of our work. Thank you for your valuable time and consideration.

      - Could you provide the raw data of these anti-acetylation western blot results?

      Thank you very much for your suggestion. The raw results have been uploaded in the supplementary materials.

      - According to the loading control, the protein quantity of BSA is very big, however, why is the acetylation of Kac-BSA relatively low? Is it consistent between the western blot and loading control?

      Thank you very much for your suggestion, first of all, all the western blot and loading control in the manuscript are the same membrane, and the specific method is described in "Western blot". Therefore, there is no possibility that the western blot and loading control do not correspond. Secondly, not every site of BSA has acetylation modifications, and the amount of modifications at each site is also different, so there will be a large amount of protein but a small amount of acetylation.

      Figure 2C - Could the Dot blot experiment be described in detail in the Methods part?

      Thank you for your suggestion. It has been added and highlighted in red.

      Figure 2C&2D - Please provide the anti-acetylation antibody information.

      Thank you for your suggestion. It has been added and highlighted in red.

      Figure 2E - It is confusing why the acetylation of Kac-BSA is higher than adding NAD+ with CobB? But only CobB can deacetylate the Kac-BSA without NAD+?

      We are sorry to confuse you. The information in the figure is incorrect. For somehow, we provided the uncorrected version, and we have revised it in the undated manuscript.

      Figure 2F - The control of this experiment should include the NAM, CobB, and NAM+CobB. Similar to 2E, it also should include NAD, CobB, and NAD+CobB, respectively. Same with 2H.

      We are sorry to confuse you. The intent of Figure 2F is to further confirm that AhCobQ is different from AhCobQ and can remove the acetylation modification of BSA without relying on NAD+, so NAD+ was added to this group of experiments. We have revised the manuscript to add details about the experiments.

      L178 Figure S1C - One question about the protein AhAcuC. From the PCR results, it is larger than ahcobB and ahcobQ, however, why is the protein AhAcuC smaller than them?

      We are sorry to confuse you. The images in the original manuscript may have had some errors in protein size due to different PAGE gels. We have re-run the gels and replaced them in the manuscript in the Supplementary Figure S3 in revised manuscript.

      - All the proteins are expressed and purified from E.coli BL21(DE3). How did you avoid the pollution of the deacetylase from the E.coli? There is no control over it in your experiment. Without this control, it is not easy to come to the conclusion that the deacetylation is from the AhCobQ but not from the pollution from the protein purification.

      In response to your inquiry, we have conducted a meticulous comparative analysis of the deacetylase activity exhibited by both His-tagged and GST-fused recombinant AhCobQ proteins. Reassuringly, our findings reveal that both variants possess robust deacetylase activity, as clearly demonstrated in Figure S5 of the revised manuscript. Furthermore, to ensure the rigor of our experiments, we employed GST protein purified from E.coli strains as a negative control in Figure S8. The Western blot (WB) results conclusively demonstrate that GST protein alone lacks deacetylase activity, thereby reinforcing the authenticity of our findings and effectively mitigating any concerns regarding potential interference from nonspecific proteins during the purification process.

      L190 - Could you provide the raw data for Table S1?

      Thank you very much for your suggestion. The raw MS data were deposited in the public ProteomeXchange Consortium via the PRIDE partner repository with the dataset identifier PXD038735 or IPX0005366000(iProx database). We also uploaded the analysis results in Table S1 and Supplementary material 2.

      - I am not an expert on MS. I have one question about the MS results. Why there is no peak for the CobB or CobQ as they add to the reaction system?

      Thank you for your insightful question. To clarify, the Kac peptides identified from Kac-BSA, as presented in Table S1, were meticulously selected for the purpose of enhancing their display and facilitating interpretation. The comprehensive raw mass spectrometry (MS) data, along with detailed analytical outcomes, have been diligently deposited within the ProteomeXchange Consortium, specifically through the PRIDE partner repository, under the dataset identifier PXD038735 or alternatively accessible via the iProx database under IPX0005366000. The analysis results also included in the Table S1 and Supplementary material 2.

      Furthermore, it is crucial to note that in this study, we utilized Bovine serum albumin (BSA) as the foundational database for our MS searches. Consequently, the absence of CobB or CobQ proteins in our MS results stems from the inherent focus on BSA and the specific experimental design, which did not encompass the detection of these particular proteins.

      We appreciate your attention to these details and hope this clarification addresses your query.

      L189-L206 - Based on the results here, the function of CobB and CobQ overlaps on the same STDKac peptides.

      Dear esteemed reviewer, our mass spectrometry (MS) analysis has revealed an intriguing finding: CobB and CobQ indeed function on the same STDKac peptide, suggesting a potential collaboration among distinct deacetylases in regulating protein function. This observation is further corroborated by our subsequent quantitative Kac proteomics results, which were obtained from three deacetylase mutants. These results underscore the possibility that CobB, CobQ, and AcuC possess both unique and overlapping protein substrates, reinforcing our hypothesis that multiple deacetylases work in concert to modulate protein activity.

      - Do you assay the Km and Kcat about the CobQ by using Kac-BAS as the substrate by comparing with AhCobB?

      Dear reviewer, thanks for your professional suggestion. In accordance with your guidance, we diligently attempted to analyze the Km or Kcat values of CobQ during its incubation with the substrate Kac-BSA using LC-MS/MS, repeating the process twice. However, to our disappointment, our current experimental platform has been unable to detect any discernible metabolites. We suspect that this may stem from operational proficiency challenges, as even our positive control experiment involving CobB incubation has failed to yield satisfactory results.

      Given our uncertainty regarding the root cause of these issues, coupled with the suggestion from experts that the LC column might be a contributing factor except for skill, we have decided against repeating the experiments at this juncture. Nonetheless, we would like to assure you that we have rigorously validated the deacetylase activity of CobQ proteins through mass spectrometry, as detailed in our manuscript.

      Furthermore, I am delighted to share that our preliminary findings have sparked interest among other research teams. In fact, one such group, upon reading our preprint, has independently tested the activity of CobQ and uncovered an additional intriguing function. We are actively exploring the possibility of collaborating with this team to delve deeper into the research and, hopefully, in the future, conduct a more refined analysis of the Km and Kcat of CobQ.

      L214- Same question with Figures 2E-2H. Could you provide the whole page gel about the loading control? I want to know the quantity of the AhCobQ in this experiment except for the Kac-BSA. To tell the truth, the quantity of BSA is too much in the deacetylation reaction system to be able to tell its deacetylation activity in vitro.

      Thank you very much for your suggestion. The raw data has been uploaded in the supplementary materials and the clarification is similar with above mentioned.

      L217 - There might be a wrong citation of Figure S2 here.

      Thank you for your suggestion. It has been corrected.

      L244-250, Figure 6A - Are there 47, not 46 Kac proteins?

      Thank you for your suggestion. It has been corrected.

      - Are there nineteen, not nine increased Kac peptides common between the ΔahcobQ and ΔahacuC strains?

      Thank you for your suggestion. It has been corrected.

      - Are there ten, not six increased Kac peptides common between the ΔahcobQ and ΔahcobB strains?

      Thank you for your suggestion. It has been corrected.

      - Are there 69, not 65 increased Kac peptides common between the ΔahcobB and ΔahacuC strains?

      Thank you for your suggestion. It has been corrected.

      - Where is the raw data for Table S2?

      Thank you very much for your suggestion. The raw data has been uploaded in the supplementary materials.

      Figure 6B - Are there 52, not 51 Kac peptides?

      Thank you for your suggestion. It has been corrected.

      L272 - Why do you choose these 11 target proteins? There is no description of this background in the context.

      We have opted to prioritize these proteins for subsequent validation, as their Kac levels exhibit a notable upregulation in the ΔahcobQ strain, potentially indicating their role as protein substrates for AhCobQ. We will incorporate this clarification into the revised manuscript to ensure clarity and comprehensiveness.

      L277 - Figure S6 - Please show the whole PAGE gel about the loading control.

      Dear esteemed reviewer, we sincerely apologize for any confusion our previous presentation may have caused. We would like to clarify that the bottom panel of Figure S6 depicts a Coomassie Blue R-350 stained whole PVDF membrane, rather than a PAGE gel, as may have been mistakenly inferred. To facilitate a comprehensive understanding, we have included the entire stained PVDF membranes in Supplementary Material 1.

      As we have previously elaborated, the recombinant His-tagged or GST-fused AhCobQ proteins were not as discernible on the PVDF membrane due to a relatively lower loading amount compared to that of Kac-BSA.

      -There might be a wrong citation in Figure S6. As you mentioned in the context, you expressed and purified 11 proteins and then tested their acetylation background.

      Thank you for your suggestion. It has been corrected.

      L280 - Figure S7 -The label of the Figure should be modified for the ATP.

      Thank you for your suggestion. It has been modified.

      - How did you do the experiment for 0h of ATP? There is no description of it in the Methods.

      Thank you for your suggestion. It has been added.

      - Please show the whole PAGE gel about the loading control.

      Thank you very much for your suggestion. The whole PAGE gel has been uploaded in the supplementary materials.

      L282 - Figure 7 - Please show the whole PAGE gel about the loading control.

      Dear esteemed reviewer, we sincerely apologize for any confusion our previous presentation may have caused. We would like to clarify that the bottom panel of Figure S6 depicts a Coomassie Blue R-350 stained whole PVDF membrane, rather than a PAGE gel, as may have been mistakenly inferred. To facilitate a comprehensive understanding, we have included the entire stained PVDF membranes in Supplementary Material 1.

      - Please adjust the font size of "A" and "B".

      Thank you for your suggestion. It has been adjusted.

      Figure 7A - The anti-acetylation Western blot here does not look good. All the western blots here should be re-done.

      Dear reviewer, the recombinant site-specific Kac proteins were constructed by two-plasmid system based on genetically encoding Nᵋ-acetyllysine in recombinant proteins in this study (Nature chemical biology, 2017, 13(12): 1253-1260). However, a common problem experienced is protein truncation arising from translation termination at the reassigned codon, lowering protein yields (ChemBioChem, 2017, 18(20): 1973-1983), and leading to a dirty background of WB results in many recombinant proteins. Although we did perform at least two times independent repeats for site-specific Kac protein WB and got similar results, the WB quality of site-specific Kac proteins are general poor and that depend on the properties of target proteins. For example, the WB results of ENO and ICD can display considerable qualities in different biological repeats.

      - Why did you choose the PAGE gel but not the anti-His Western blot as the loading control?

      Thank you very much for your suggestion. Labeling antibodies is a very effective loading control. However, in order to ensure the accuracy of the data, both the experimental data and loading control in this manuscript are required to be reflected on the same membrane. If His tags are used, the membrane will be washed repeatedly for secondary color development. Based on the fact that acetylation modification is already difficult for color development, this will greatly affect the quality of the results presented. Meanwhile, while ensuring consistent protein levels, we believe that changes in acetylation modifications can also explain the issue. Therefore, you choose the PAGE gel but not the anti-His Western blot as the loading control.

      L278 - Where are the results of the site-specific lysine acetylation of the target protein by using two-plasmid-based system of genetically encoded Nε-acetyllysine. Usually, there will be a shift when it is full acetylated by compared with the wild-type protein.

      Sorry for the confusion caused. As the size of the acetyl group is only about 40.6Da, which is thousands of times smaller than the size of the protein, the changes in size of the protein before and after modification cannot be seen with the naked eye.

      L287 - Where is Figure 7C?

      We are sorry to confuse you. It has been corrected.

      - Here the citation might be Figure 7A but not Figure 7B.

      Thank you for your suggestion. It has been corrected.

      L290 - It is difficult to read here, please rearrange this Figure S8. There is no useful label.

      Thank you for your suggestion. It has been corrected.

      - The citation of Figure S8 is wrong.

      Thank you for your suggestion. It has been corrected.

      - For Figure S8, please add the label on the figure. And add anti-GST western blot as well. Because the GST is about 26KD, why are the purified recombinant truncated proteins (GST-fusion) so small?

      Sorry for the inconvenience caused. The truncated fragment used for recombinant purification in Figure S8 is very small, and when converted to protein, it is approximately between 1-5kDa. Therefore, the resulting protein is also very small.

      - Why there are two Figure S8 in the supplemental materials?

      We are sorry to confuse you. It has been corrected.

      L293 - Where is Figure 7D?

      We are sorry to confuse you. It has been corrected.

      L297-313 - Please provide the MS result of the ICDK388?

      Author response image 2.

      The mass spectrum of Kac modification on ICD protein at K388 site.

      Dear reviewer, we are pleased to present the mass spectrum data pertaining to the Kac modification at the K388 site of the ICD protein in Δ_ahcobQ_ strain in Figure2 in this responding letter. It is important to clarify that, while we have not directly validated the Kac status of site-specific lysine acetylation at the recombinant ICD K388 site through mass spectrometry (MS) in this particular study, we have strong reasons to believe in its specificity.

      Firstly, our confidence stems from the well-established and rigorously validated two-plasmid system methodology for site-directed acetylation modification. This approach has been successfully employed in modifying diverse and specific sites across various proteins, as evidenced by the pioneering work of David et al. in Nature Chemical Biology (2017, 13(12), 1253-1260).

      Secondly, we have taken meticulous measures to ensure the accuracy and reliability of our findings. This includes double-checking our PCR primers and DNA sequencing for the genetic code expansion technology employed. Furthermore, we have included control experiments utilizing proteins that were not subjected to site-directed acetylation (ICD), as detailed in Figure 8A in revised manuscript, thereby providing an additional layer of validation and reinforcing the robustness of our results.

      We believe that these two lines of evidence, combined with our rigorous experimental design and execution, provide a solid foundation for our conclusion regarding the specific acetylation of the K388 site in ICD.

      - Please provide the whole PAGE gel of loading control. Or other anti-His results?

      Dear esteemed reviewer, we sincerely apologize for any confusion our previous presentation may have caused. We would like to clarify that the bottom panel of Figure S6 depicts a Coomassie Blue R-350 stained whole PVDF membrane, rather than a PAGE gel, as may have been mistakenly inferred. To facilitate a comprehensive understanding, we have included the entire stained PVDF membranes in Supplementary Material 1.

      - Do you have site-specific antibody of ICDK388? It should be better to identify the ICDK388 with site-specific anti-acetylation antibody.

      Thank you for your insightful suggestion. We fully concur that a site-specific antibody targeting ICDK388 would be an optimal tool to elucidate the impact of CobQ on the acetylation status (Kac) of this protein. Unfortunately, we are currently without such an antibody due to the intricate and time-consuming process of its production, which also requires rigorous validation to ensure specificity. Furthermore, the cost associated with its development is considerable.

      To address this limitation, in the present manuscript, we have innovatively employed a two-plasmid system for site-directed acetylation modification of ICDK388. This method, which has been extensively validated and utilized in modifying diverse specific sites (David et al., Nature Chemical Biology, 2017, 13(12), 1253-1260), allowed us to precisely manipulate the acetylation status of our target protein. Additionally, we incorporated control experiments using proteins that were not subjected to site-directed acetylation, as depicted in Figure 8A in revised manuscript, thereby reinforcing the robustness and reliability of our findings.

      - Please give some background information about K388 site of ICD in the context.

      Thank you for your suggestion. It has been added.

      L484 - Could you provide the reference for this assay method "Protein deacetylation assay in vitro"?

      Thank you for your suggestion. The work published in science 327, 1004 (2010) and Nat. Protoc.5, 1583-1595.

      L490 - There is no detailed information about the growh condition for the quantitative acetylome analysis. Without these information, the proportion of the Kac peptides doesn't make any sense.

      Thank you for your suggestion. It has been added.

      L531 - Insert one line before the paragraph of Western blot.

      Thank you for your suggestion. It has been inserted.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Tables S1 and S2 are missing. I could not fully understand the manuscript without them.

      We are sorry to confuse you.The data has been uploaded in the supplementary materials.

      Line 130. The gene IDs of AhCobB and AhAcuC should be presented.

      Thank you for your suggestion. It has been presented.

      Line 285. What is different between ArcA and ArcA-2? Please clarify.

      Thank you for your suggestion. ArcA is aerobic respiration control protein ArcA, gene name AHA_3026 (https://www.uniprot.org/uniprotkb/A0KMM9/entry). ArcA-2 is arginine deiminase, which gene name is AHA_4093  (https://www.uniprot.org/uniprotkb/A0KQG6/entry). Therefore, they are different proteins according to Uniport annotation.

      Line 303. 8further, a bug?

      We are sorry to confuse you. It has been corrected.

      Line 412-416. The related papers on ICD acetylation in E. coli should be cited.

      We are sorry to confuse you. It has been added.

      Line 478. Not in vivo but in vitro?

      Sorry to confuse you. It should be in vitro. We have revised in the updated manuscript.

      Figure 3C and 3D. The image resolution is bad. The figures should be improved so that readers to know easily that Kac is exactly incorporated at the target site.

      Thank you for your suggestion. It has been corrected.

      Figure 4B. The amino acid residues of the whole AhCobB should be 1-264 aa.

      Thank you for your suggestion. It has been corrected.

      Figure 8. It would be better to use the same colors between panels C and D. It should be shown the significance between ICD-Kac388 and ICD-Kac388+AhCobB to support the authors' conclusion that AhCobQ activates ICD by deacetylation at K388.

      Thank you for your suggestion. It has been adjusted.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer 1

      “The exact levels of inhibition, excitation, and neuromodulatory inputs to neural networks are unknown. Therefore, the work is based on fine-tuned measures that are indirectly based on experimental results. However, obtaining such physiological information is challenging and currently impossible. From a computational perspective it is a challenge that in theory can be solved. Thus, although we have no ground-truth evidence, this framework can provide compelling evidence for all hypothesis testing research and potentially solve this physiological problem with the use of computers.”

      Response: We agree with the reviewer. This work was intended to determine the feasibility of reverse engineering motor unit firing patterns, using neuron models with a high degree realism. Given the results support this feasibility, our model and technique will therefore serve to construct new hypotheses as well as testing them.

      • Common input structure lines 115

      I agree with the following concepts, but I would specify that there is not only one dominant common input. It has been shown that there are multiple common inputs to the same motor nuclei (e.g., the two inputs are orthogonal and are shared with a subset of the active motoneurons) particularly for agonist motoneuron pools of synergistic muscles. On the hand muscles the authors are correct that there is only one dominant common input. Moreover, there is also some animal work suggesting that common inputs is just an epiphenomenon. This is completely in contradiction to what we observe in-vivo in the firing patterns of motor units, but perhaps worth mentioning and discussing.

      Response: Thanks for emphasizing this point. We have cited a recent reference discussing the important issue of common drive and the possibility of more than one source. Our simulations assume the net form of the excitatory input to all motoneurons in the pool is the same, except for noise. This net form (which produces the linear CST output in each case) essentially represents the sum of all inputs, both descending and sensory. Our results show the same over pattern as human data, i.e. that all motor unit firing patterns have similar trajectories (again allowing for the impact of noise). Future studies will consider separating excitatory inputs into different sources.

      It is interesting that the authors mention suprathreshold rate modulation. Could the authors just discuss more on how the model would respond to a simulated suprathreshold current for all simulated motoneurons (i.e., like the ones generated during a suprathreshold-injected current or voluntary maximal feedforward movement?)

      Response: Thank you for this point. Our use of the term “suprathreshold” was not applied correctly. We meant “suprathreshold” to refer to amount of input above the recruitment threshold. We have decided to remove this term so now the sentence “…so less is available for rate modulation…”.

      194 a full point is missing.

      Response: We addressed the error.

      204-231 and 232-259, these two paragraphs have been copied twice.

      Response: We addressed the error.

      Line 475 typo

      Response: We addressed the error.

      591 It would be interesting to add the me it takes a standard computer with known specs and a super computer to run over one batch of simulation (i.e., how long one of the 6,300,000 simulation takes).

      Response: Each simulation took about 20 minutes of real me. Assuming a standard computer with 16 processor cores using a similar microarchitecture as Bebop (Intel Broadwell architecture), the standard computer could run 16 simulations at a me (one simulation assigned per core). This would take the standard computer about 15 years to complete all 6.3M simulations.

      594 I don't understand why there are 6M simulations, could the authors provide more info on the combinations and why there are 6M simulations.

      Response: The 6M simulations are the total number of simulations that were performed for this work. A detailed explanation can be found in section: “Machine learning inference of motor pool characteristics” at line 591. Briefly, there were 315,000 simulations of a pool of 20 motoneurons (20 x 315,000 = 6.3 million). The 315,000 simulations was required to run all possible combinations of 15 patens of inhibition, 5 of neuromodulation, 7 of distribution of excitatory inputs and 30 different repeats of synaptic noise with different seeds. In addition, there were 20 iterations for each of these combinations to generate a linear CST output (as illustrated in Fig. 3). 15 x5 x 7 x 30 x 20=315,000.

      In several simulations it seems that there was a lot of fine-tuning of inputs to match the measured motor unit firing pattern. Have the authors ever considered a fully black-box AI approach? If they think is interesting maybe it could spice up the discussion.

      Response: We agree that AI has potential for reverse engineering the whole system and we are looking into adding it to future version of this algorithm as an alternative. We started with a simple but powerful grid search to enhance our understanding of the interaction between inputs, neuron properties and outputs.

      Reviewer 2

      Comment 1:

      “First, I believe that the relation between individual motor neuron behavioral characteristics (delta F, brace height etc.) and the motor neuron input properties can be illustrated more clearly. Although this is explained in the text, I believe that this is not optimally supported by figures. Figure 6 to some extent shows this, but figures 8 and 9 as well as Table 1 shows primarily the goodness of fit rather than the actual fit.”

      Response: We agree with the reviewer that showing the relationship between the motor neuron behavioral characteristics (delta F, brace height etc.) and the motor neuron input properties would be a great addition to the manuscript. Because the regression models have multiple dimensions (7 inputs and 3 outputs) it is difficult to show the relationship in a static image. We thought it best to show the goodness of fit even though it is more abstract and less intuitive. We added a supplemental diagram to Figure 8 to show the structure of the reverse engineered model that was fit (see Figure 8D).

      Author response image 1.

      Figure 8. Residual plots showing the goodness of fit of the different predicted values: (A) Inhibition, (B) Neuromodulation and (C) excitatory Weight Rao. The summary plots are for the models showing highest 𝑅𝑅2 results in Table 1. The predicted values are calculated using the features extracted from the firing rates (see Figure 7, section Machine learning inference of motor pool characteristics and Regression using motoneuron outputs to predict input organization). Diagram (D) shows the multidimensionality of the RE models (see Model fits) which have 7 feature inputs (see Feature Extraction) predicting 3 outputs (Inhibition, Neuromodulation and Weight Rao).

      Comment 2:

      “Second, I would have expected the discussion to have addressed specifically the question of which of the two primary schemes (pushpull, balanced) is the most prevalent. This is the main research question of the study, but it is to some degree le unanswered. Now that the authors have identified the relation between the characteristics of motor neuron behaviors (which has been reported in many previous studies), why not exploit this finding by summarizing the results of previous studies (at least a few representative ones) and discuss the most likely underlying input scheme? Is there a consistent trend towards one of the schemes, or are both strategies commonly used?”

      Response: We agree with the reviewer that our discussion should have addressed which of the two primary schemes – push-pull or balanced – is the most prevalent. At first glance, the upper right of Figure 6 looks the most realistic when compared to real data. We thus would expect that the push-pull scheme to dominate for the given task.

      We added a brief section (Push-Pull vs Balance Motor Command) in the discussion to address the reviewer’s comments. This section is not exhaustive but frames the debate using relevant literature. We are also now preparing to deploy these techniques on real data.

      Comment 3:

      In addition, it seems striking to me that highly non-linear excitation profiles are necessary to obtain a linear CST ramp in many model configurations. Although somewhat speculative, one may expect that an approximately linear relation is desired for robust and intuitive motor control. It seems to me that humans generally have a good ability to accurately grade the magnitude of the motor output, which implies that either a non-linear relation has been learnt (complex task), or that the central nervous system can generally rely on a somewhat linear relation between the neural drive to the muscle and the output (simpler task).

      Response: We agree with the reviewer, and we were surprised by these results. Our motoneuron pool is equipped with persistent inward currents (PICs) which are nonlinear. Therefore, for the motoneuron to produce a linear output the central nervous system would have to incorporate these nonlinearities into its commands.

      Following this reasoning, it could be interesting to report also for which input scheme, the excitation profile is most linear. I understand that this is not the primary aim of the study, but it may be an interesting way to elaborate on the finding that in many cases non-linear excitation profiles were needed to produce the linear ramp.

      This is a very interesting point. The most realistic firing patterns – with respect to human data – are found in the parameter regions in the upper right in Figure 6, which in fact produce the most nonlinear input (see push-pull pattern in Figure 4C). However, in future studies we hope to separate the total motor command illustrated here into descending and feedback commands. This may result in a more linear descending drive.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      The study provides valuable insights into allosteric regulation of BTK, a non-receptor protein kinase, challenging previous models. Using a variety of biophysical and functional techniques, the paper presents evidence that the N-terminal PH-TH domain of BTK exists in a conformational ensemble surrounding a compact SH3-SH2-kinase core, that the BTK kinase domain can form partially active dimers, and that the PH domain can form a novel inhibitory interface after SH2/SH3 disengagement. Overall the presented evidence is solid, but the EM results may be over-interpreted and the work would benefit from additional functional validation.

      We made every effort in our descriptions of the cryoEM data presented for full-length BTK to not overinterpret the results. In essence this is not an ideal EM target but given the failure by us and others to capture the full-length multi-domain protein crystallographically, we decided that the albeit low resolution cryoEM data are useful to the field.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The manuscript by Lin et al describes a wide biophysical survey of the molecular mechanisms underlying full-length BTK regulation. This is a continuation of this lab's excellent work on deciphering the myriad levels of regulation of BTKs downstream of their activation by plasma membrane localised receptors.

      The manuscript uses a synergy of cryo EM, HDX-MS and mutational analysis to delve into the role of how the accessory domains modify the activity of the kinase domain. The manuscript essentially has three main novel insights into BTK regulation.

      1) Cryo EM and SAXS show that the PHTH region is dynamic compared to the conserved Src module.

      2) A 2nd generation tethered PH-kinase construct crystal of BTK reveals a unique orientation of the PH domain relative to the kinase domain, that is different from previous structures.

      3) A new structure of the kinase domain dimer shows how trans-phosphorylation can be achieved.

      Excitingly these structural works allow for the generation of a model of how BTK can act as a strict coincidence sensor for both activated BCR complex as well as PIP3 before it obtains full activity. To my eye the most exciting result of this work is describing how the PH domain can inhibit activity once the SH3/SH2 domain is disengaged, allowing for an additional level of regulatory control.

      I have very few experimental concerns as the methods and figures are well-described and clear. As the authors are potentially saying that the previously solved PH domain-kinase interface is artefactual, additional evidence strengthening their model would be helpful to resolve any possible controversies.

      We do not argue that the previously solved PH domain-kinase interface is artefactual. Instead we point out that the PH/kinase interface identified in the prior structure is incompatible with the contacts between the SH3 and kinase domains in autoinhibited BTK. This then leads us to the suggestion that a PH/kinase inhibitory interaction may instead occur upon dissociation of the SH3-SH2 cassette from the kinase domain. Our data support that model. Moreover, our data suggest the PHTH domain is dynamic, likely not settling in to one particular autoinhibitory state. Thus, it is possible the previously solved PH/kinase structure exists within the conformational ensemble of a range PH/kinase domain interactions. In an effort to clarify our think we added two sentences to the Discussion (pg. 19).

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      In this study, multiple biophysical techniques were employed to investigate the activation mechanism of BTK, a multi-domain non-receptor protein kinase. Previous studies have elucidated the inhibitory effects of the SH3 and SH2 domains on the kinase and the potential activation mechanism involving the membranebound PIP3 inducing transient dimerization of the PH-TH domain, which binds to lipids.

      The primary focus of the present study was on three new constructs: a full-length BTK construct, a construct where the PH-TH domain is connected to the kinase domain, and a construct featuring a kinase domain with a phosphomimetic at the autophosphorylation site Y551. The authors aimed to provide new insights into the autoinhibition and allosteric control of BTK.

      The study reports that SAXS analysis of the full-length BTK protein construct, along with cryoEM visualization of the PH-TH domain, supports a model in which the N-terminal PH-TH domain exists in a conformational ensemble surrounding a compact/autoinhibited SH3-SH2-kinase core. This finding is interesting because it contradicts previous models proposing that each globular domain is tightly packed within the core.

      Furthermore, the authors present a model for an inhibitory interaction between the N-lobe of the kinase and the PH-TH domain. This model is based on a study using a tethered complex with a longer tether than a previously reported construct where the PH-TH domain was tightly attached to the kinase domain (ref 5). The authors argue that the new structure is relevant. However, this assertion requires further explanation and discussion, particularly considering that the functional assays used to assess the impact of mutating residues within the PH-TH/kinase domain contradict the results of the previous study (ref 5).

      In our hands BTK activity is not significantly affected by mutation of just two residues, R133 and Y134. It is somewhat difficult to compare the previously reported activity assay for the same BTK mutant (Wang et al. ref 5, Figure 4D) with the data we report here. For unexplained reasons, the time scale for the quantitative assay in the previous work is truncated to 50 munutes for the R133/Y134 mutant data compared to 120 minutes for all of the other activity data reported in that figure. In our data, if we qualitatively examine the differences in a representative progress curve at 50 minutes between WT and the double R133/Y134 mutant (see Figure 6a, dark blue and pink traces) one might conclude that the R133/Y134 mutation is activating BTK. However, when we calculate the average kinase activity rate ± standard error for three independent experiments we find that the difference between WT and the double R133/Y134 mutant is not significant (see Figure 6b and c). Thus, instead of making any assertions about the previously published data we are trying to be as rigoruous as possible in presentation and interpretation of our own data.

      In addition, throughout the manuscript we tried to be very careful in our discussion of our data and that published previously, to avoid conclusive statements about the previously described interface. Afterall, one of our overriding conclusions is that the N-terminal region of BTK is highly dynamic. See response to reviewer 1 above.

      Additionally, the study presents the structure of the kinase domain with swapped activation loops in a dimeric form, representing a previously unseen structure along the trans-phosphorylation pathway. This structure holds potential relevance. To better understand its significance, employing a structure/function approach like the one described for the PH-TH/kinase domain interface would be beneficial.

      We completely agree with this comment and are pursuing such studies now.

      Overall, this study contributes to our understanding of the activation mechanism of BTK and sheds light on the autoinhibition and allosteric control of this protein kinase. It presents new structural insights and proposes novel models that challenge previous understandings. However, further investigation and discussion would significantly strengthen the study.

      As indicated we are pursuing further investigation and felt that the body of work presented here is sufficient for a single manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Yin-wei Lin et al set out to visualize the inactive conformation of full-length Bruton's Tyrosine Kinase (BTK), a molecule that has evaded high-resolution structural studies in its full-length form to this date. An open question in the field is how the Pleckstrin Homology-Tec Homology (PHTH) domain inhibits BTK activity, with multiple competing models in the field. The authors used a complimentary set of biophysical techniques combined with well-thought-out stabilizing mutations to obtain structural insights into BTK regulation in its full-length form. They were able to crystallize the full-length construct of BTK but unfortunately, the PHTH was not resolved yielding a structure similar to that previously obtained in the field. The investigation of the same construct by SAXS yielded an elongated structural model, consistent with previous SAXS studies. Using cryo-EM the authors obtained a low-resolution model for the FL BTK with a loosely connected density assigned to the dynamic PHTH around the compact SH2-SH3-Kinase Domain (KD) core. To gain further molecular insights into PHTH-KD interactions the authors followed a previously reported strategy and generated a fusion of PHTH-KD with a longer linker, yielding a crystal structure with a novel PHTH-KD interface which they tested in biochemical assays. Lastly, Yin-wei Lin et al crystallized the BTK KD in a novel partially active state in a "face-to-face" dimer with kinases exchanging the activation loops, although partially disordered, being theoretically perfectly positioned for transphosphorylation. Overall this presents a valiant effort to gain molecular insights into what clearly is a dynamic regulatory motif on BTK and is a valuable addition to the field.

      However, this work can be improved by considering these points:

      1) The cryo-EM reconstructions are potentially over-interpreted. The reported resolution for all of the analyzed reconstructions is better than 8Å, at which point helices should be recognized as well-resolved structural elements. In the current view/depiction of the cryo-EM maps/models it is hard to see such structural features and it would be great if the authors could include a panel showing maps at higher thresholds to show correspondence between the helices in the kinase C lobe and the cryo-EM maps. Otherwise, the overall positioning of the models within the cryo-EM maps is hard to evaluate and may very well be wrong. (Fig 4, S2).

      First, we fully recognize the model is low-resolution and we are careful in our discussion of the cryo-EM data to use language that acknowledges the limitations of the model. Nevertheless, this is the model we have (specific data processing points are discussed below).

      The resolution numbers are from the Fourier Shell Correlation (FSC) curve given by Cryosaprc at the end of refinement. We do acknowledge the reviewer’s comments that the resolution could be over estimated in that calculation, but our main focus is to show that the overall domain arrangement of the autoinhibited BTK core (Src-module) fits into the reconstructions.

      We tested visualizing the maps at higher threshold, but the secondary structures of the reconstructions were still not well resolved. We do realize that with the current reconstructions, we do not have the structural details to correctly orientate and fit individual domains; this is why we chose to simply fit the available crystal structure of the autoinhibited BTK SH3-SH2-kinase core into the maps.

      2) With the above in mind, if the maps are not at the point where helices are well resolved, it may be beneficial to low-pass filter the maps to a more conservative resolution for fitting, analysis, and representation. (Fig 4, S2).

      Using low-pass filtered maps at 10Å or unsharpened maps, the fitting of the BTK model and map do not change significantly.

      3) It would be valuable to get a quantitative metric on the model/map fitting for the cryo-EM work. One good package for this is Situs which provides cross-correlation values for the top orthogonal fits, without user input for initial fitting. This would again increase confidence in the correctness of model positioning on the map. (Fig 4, S2).

      Thank you for this suggestion. We tested the colores feature (Exhaustive One-At-A-Time 6D Search) in Situs to perform model to map fitting without user input as the reviewer suggested. The highest ranked fitting is identical to what we presented in the manuscript. Following are the cross-corelation numbers calculated from “Fit-in-map” tool in chimera and from “collage” function in Situs. We now indicate this step in the caption to Figure 4.

      Author response table 1.

      4) It would be great to see 2D class averages from the particles contributing to each of the 3D classes. Theoretically, a clear bright "blob" (hypothesized to be the PHTH domain) should be observable in the 2D class averages. In the current 2D class averages that region is unconvincingly weak. (Fig 4, S2).

      We attempted to improve both 2D and 3D reconstructitions by feeding the particles from each 3D class through many cycles of 2D classification and selection to exclude ‘bad’ paritcles, but neither the 2D class averages nor 3D reconstructions could be improved.

      We agree the feature that appears in the 2D class averages is weak. The BTK protein is only 77kD in size and is highly dynamic and flexible. Thus, in reality this is not an ideal system for cryo-EM. As well, the PHTH domain itself is quite small and NMR data, acquired in the context of a different project, provides evidence that the isolated PHTH domain is dynamic in solution (NMR linewidths vary throughout the protein suggesting intermediate exchange). Nevertheless, given the inability to capture the PHTH domain in crystal structures of full-llength BTK we reasoned that cryo-EM could provide some insight. In the future we anticipate building on these data to include inhibitory binding partners of BTK; however such an effort is beyond the scope of the current work.

      5) It seems like there was quite a large circular mask applied during 2D classification. Are authors confident that the weak density attributed to the PHTH domain is not neighboring particles making their way into the extraction box? It would be great if the authors would trim their particle stack with a very stringent interparticle distance cutoff (or report the cutoff in the manuscript if already done so) to minimize this possibility.

      We initially picked particles using a small radius (100 Å), and stringently selected 2D classes with particles that contained only density aligning to the core SH3-SH2-kinase domains. We found, however, that 3D ab initio reconstruction always resulted in an additional density located at different positions around the larger core density. The structure of a single BTK PHTH domain fits into that additional remote density. Given the additional density that consistently appeared in 3D reconstructions, we went back and picked particles using a larger circular mask (200 A). Subsequent 2D classification and 3D reconstruction from this analysis gave similar results and are presented in the manuscript.

      Regardless of the mask radius, we used stringent conditions for particle picking and checked for the presence of duplicates. An interparticle distance cutoff of 0.1 to 0.5 times the particle diameter was used and resulted in fewer number of particles, but the presence of the extended density remains. We also made use of template picking (2D class averages) to repick the particles and found no significant difference in the number of particles or quality of 2D classifications.

      6) The cryo-EM processing may benefit from more stringent particle picking. The authors picked over 2M particles from 750 micrographs which likely represents very heavy overpicking. I would encourage the authors to re-pick the micrographs with 2D class averages and use more stringent metrics to reduce the overpicking. This may result in higher-resolution reconstructions. (Fig 4, S2).

      This was an effort to maximize the number of particles extracted. After multiple rounds of 2D classification and selection to exclude empty and junk particles, the final number of particles selected for 3D ab-initio reconstructions were only 68,788, and only ~20K particles for each 3D reconstruction. Thus, we are not concerned that we overpicked particles. This approach is described in Supp Figure S2.

      7) The Dmax from SAXS for the Full Length BTK is at 190Å. It would be great if the authors could make a cartoon of what domain arrangement may satisfy this distance, as it is quite extended for such a small particle. Can the authors rule out dimerization at SAXS concentrations? (Fig 1).

      SAXS data for full-length, wild-type BTK has been previously published (Márquez et al, 2003 EMBO J. (2003) 22:4616-4624). Our data for WT BTK are consistent with that published previously (and we have cited this previous work). In that work, the authors attribute the ~200 Å Dmax value to an elongated BTK conformation where the domains of BTK are arranged in a linear fashion (a figure showing this domain arragement is provided by Marquez et al. precluding the need for such a cartoon here).

      In the present work we take advantage of targeted mutations to stabilize the autoinhibted SH2-SH2-kinase core and the Dmax value that we report for this more autoinhibited version of full-length BTK (FL 4P1F) is ~150Å. Notwithstanding low resolution in both SAXS and cryoEM, it is notable that superposition of the cryoEM models in Figure 4c & d gives a distance of ~150Å between the PHTH domains from the two models.

      Finally, we cannot completely rule out that a small fraction of full length BTK is forming dimers. However, in our experience purifying and working with this protein, we find that purified and concentrated monomeric fulllength Btk proteins (as high as 15mg/ml) are quite stable and remain monomeric and free of aggregation even after sitting at 4°C for more than a week. Here the BTK SAXS data were collected within 24 hours after the samples were thawed.

      8) In Figure S1 (C) it seems that the curves are just scattering curves with Guinier plots in the inserts, but are labeled as Guinier plots in the legend. The Guinier plots for some samples (FL 4P1F) show signs of aggregation, which may complicate the analysis, it could be beneficial to redo.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out our mistake in presention of the SAXS data. We have now replaced plots in Figure S1c with the correct scattering profiles for each construct with the Guinier insets shown. We revised the label of this panel to “Scattering profile and Guinier plots (insets)”.

      In addition, we re-processed the FL 4P1F data by performing buffer subtraction (using a different buffer alone scattering dataset (also collected during original data acquisition)). The data quality after reprocessing were significantly improved (see new scattering profiles and Guinier plots for full-length BTK in Supplementary Figure S1). Protein stability (see above) and the current data quality therefore suggest that aggregation is not complicating the SAXS analysis.

      9) Have the authors verified that the activation loop mutations that they introduce do not disrupt the PHTH binding as they previously reported an activation loop on BTK to interact with PHTH, an interaction they do not see here? If so, a citation would be helpful in the text. If not, testing this would strengthen the paper.

      The same activation loop mutations were included in the constructs used in the previous solution studies of the PHTH/kinase domain interaction by NMR and HDX (see ref [11]). We clarify this point in the methods section. As well, all but one of the sequence changes introduced into the activation loop are at positions at the ‘base’ of the activation loop and therefore are not surface exposed. Only one amino acid change is on the exposed part of the activation loop (V555T).

      10) Can the authors comment on the surfaces which are accessible and inaccessible to the PHTH in the crystal (Fig 3E)? The fact that PHTH doesn't adopt a stable conformation in the solvent channel to some degree indicates that the accessible interaction surfaces are not suitable for PHTH interactions, as the "effective concentration" of the PHTH would be quite high. Are these surfaces consistent with the cryo-EM analysis?

      This is an excellent point and we did state the following in describing the crystallization results:

      “the crystallography results are consistent with a flexible N-terminal PHTH domain with the caveat that the domain swapped dimer organization might limit native autoinhibitory contacts between the PHTH and SH3SH2-kinase regions.”

      In the domain swapped dimer seen in the crystal, a symmetry related molecule does partially block the Ghelix region of the kinase domain while the activation loop and C-helix in the N-lobe remain accessible. Our previous solution studies (ref [11]) pointed to the G helix as part of the interaction interface in addition to the activation loop and part of the N-lobe. We have now modified the sentence above to more clearly describe which parts of the kinase domain are inaccessible in the crystal and the possible ramifications of the steric environment on PHTH domain mobility in the crystal (see pg. 10). That said, all of our previous HDX data shows little protection in the PHTH domain in full-length BTK (mapping of the PHTH/kinase interaction was only possible in trans using excess PHTH domain) and so our data can be best summarized by concluding that the PHTH domain visits a number of conformational states and makes transient contacts with various regions of the kinase domain (dependent upon whether the SH3-SH2 region is engaged or not). This is similar to the ‘fuzzy’ intramolecular contacts described for the N-terminal region of the SRC family. Like the SRC family, BTK (and other TEC kinases) contain a long disordered linker between the N-terminal region and the compact SH3-SH2-kinase core.

      11) For the novel active state dimer of the Kinase Domain it would be great to see some functional validation of the dimerization interface. It is structurally certainly quite suggestive, but without such experiments the functional significance is unclear. If appropriate mutations have been published previously a citation would be helpful.

      We completely agree. We scoured the literature and our own facuntional assay results over many years but the appropriate mutations to test the functional significance of the kinase domain dimer have not been reported or previously studied in our lab. We are therefore actively pursuing this line of investigation now.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I have the following proposed experiments/analysis that should help.

      1) To better validate the putative PH-kinase interface seen, the authors should try some alphafold multimer / rosettaTTFold modelling of just the PHTH module with the kinase domain. The advantage of this is that it will test how conserved over evolution the potential interface is, and will help to decipher discrepancies between the two structures. This may end up being similar to what is seen in Akt (in this case the alphafold prediction does not match the allosteric inhibitor structure, or the nanobody bound structure), but this could help provide additional insight into how the PH domain interacts.

      We have applied alphafold to this system. The PHTH-kinase fusion sequence was fed to Alphafold and the separate PHTH and kinase domains to Aphafold multimer. The results provide a range of ‘complexes’ none of which recapitulate the PHTH/kinase interface reported here or that reported by Wang et al in previous work. Three of five results from Alphafold Multimer place the PHTH domain on the activation loop face of the kinase domain consistent with the previous solution data pointing to a similar regulatory interface. This is interesting but our experience in applying alphafold to dynamic confromationally heterogeneous systems is that the results need to be considered with caution. For that reason we did not include any of the alphafold predictions in the manuscript.

      Evolutionary conservation is discussed further in the next section:

      2) Could the authors provide a detailed evolutionarily analysis of the binding surface between the PHTH and kinase domains and include this in Fig5, this also would help interpret the likelihood of this interface.

      This is an excellent question and we have in fact previously published a detailed evolutionary analysis of the BTK kinase domain in collaboration with Kannan Natarajan (see Amatya et al., PNAS, 2019, [ref 11]). In that work we found that evolutionarily conserved residues on the kinase domain map to the activation loop face, supporting the solution data that the PHTH interacts with the kinase domain across the activation loop face. That work predated alphafold but it is interesting that, to the exent that alphafold predicts anything, it seems to converge on the PHTH domain containg the activation loop face.

      In the context of our current work, and this question from the reviewer, we re-examined the evolutionary anlysis carried out previously and find that BTK (or TEC family) specific residues on the kinase domain do not appear at the newly identified PHTH/kinase interface we report here. We could speculate that since the ‘back’ of the kinase domain N-lobe interacts with multiple binding partners (SH3, SH2-linker and PHTH) evolutionary pressures may have resulted in a certain degree of plasticity to allow recognition of multiple binding partners.

      Evolutionary analysis of the BTK PH domain was also carried out previously and shows that the conserved sites map to the phospholipid binding pocket of the PH domain. The analysis did not include TH domain residues. Since we find the TH domain contributes to the PHTH/kinase interface in our crystal structure, we do not have the data at this time to do a thourough anaylsis but we appreciate this comment and can address this in furture work with collaborators.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We thank the reviewers and editors for their careful read of our paper, and appreciate the thoughtful comments.

      Both reviewers agreed that our work had several major strengths: the large dataset collected in collaboration across ten labs, the streamlined processing pipelines, the release of code repositories, the multi-task neural network, and that we definitively determined that electrode placement is an important source of variability between datasets.

      However, a number of key potential improvements were noted: the reviewers felt that a more standard model-based characterization of single neuron responses would benefit our reproducibility analysis, that more detail was needed about the number of cells, sessions, and animals, and that more information was needed to allow users to deploy the RIGOR standards and to understand their relationship to other metrics in the field.

      We agree with these suggestions and have implemented many major updates in our revised manuscript. Some highlights include:

      (1)  A new regression analysis that specifies the response profile of each neuron, allowing a comparison of how similar these are across labs and areas (See Figure 7 in the new section, “Single neuron coefficients from a regression-based analysis are rep oducible across labs”);

      (2) A new decoding analysis (See Figure 9 in the section, “Decodability of task variables is consistent across labs, but varies by brain region”);

      (3) A new RIGOR notebook to ease useability;

      (4) A wealth of additional information about the cells, animals and sessions in each figure;

      (5) Many new additional figure panels in the main text and supplementary material to clarify the specific points raised by the reviewers.

      Again, we are grateful to the reviewers and editors for their helpful comments, which have significantly improved the work. We are hopeful that the many revisions we have implemented will be sufficient to change the “incomplete” designation that was originally assigned to the manuscript.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors explore a large-scale electrophysiological dataset collected in 10 labs while mice performed the same behavioral task, and aim to establish guidelines to aid reproducibility of results collected across labs. They introduce a series of metrics for quality control of electrophysiological data and show that histological verification of recording sites is important for interpreting findings across labs and should be reported in addition to planned coordinates. Furthermore, the authors suggest that although basic electrophysiology features were comparable across labs, task modulation of single neurons can be variable, particularly for some brain regions. The authors then use a multi-task neural network model to examine how neural dynamics relate to multiple interacting task- and experimenter-related variables, and find that lab-specific differences contribute little to the variance observed. Therefore, analysis approaches that account for correlated behavioral variables are important for establishing reproducible results when working with electrophysiological data from animals performing decision-making tasks. This paper is very well-motivated and needed. However, what is missing is a direct comparison of task modulation of neurons across labs using standard analysis practice in the fields, such as generalized linear model (GLM). This can potentially clarify how much behavioral variance contributes to the neural variance across labs; and more accurately estimate the scale of the issues of reproducibility in behavioral systems neuroscience, where conclusions often depend on these standard analysis methods.

      We fully agree that a comparison of task-modulation across labs is essential. To address this, we have performed two new analyses and added new corresponding figures to the main text (Figures 7 and 9). As the reviewer hoped, this analysis did indeed clarify how much behavioral variance contributes to the variance across labs. Critically, these analyses suggested that our results were more robust to reproducibility than the more traditional analyses would indicate.

      Additional details are provided below (See detailed response to R1P1b).

      Strengths:

      (1) This is a well-motivated paper that addresses the critical question of reproducibility in behavioural systems neuroscience. The authors should be commended for their efforts.

      (2) A key strength of this study comes from the large dataset collected in collaboration across ten labs. This allows the authors to assess lab-to-lab reproducibility of electrophysiological data in mice performing the same decision-making task.

      (3) The authors' attempt to streamline preprocessing pipelines and quality metrics is highly relevant in a field that is collecting increasingly large-scale datasets where automation of these steps is increasingly needed.

      (4) Another major strength is the release of code repositories to streamline preprocessing pipelines across labs collecting electrophysiological data.

      (5) Finally, the application of MTNN for characterizing functional modulation of neurons, although not yet widely used in systems neuroscience, seems to have several advantages over traditional methods.

      Thanks very much for noting these strengths of our work.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) In several places the assumptions about standard practices in the field, including preprocessing and analyses of electrophysiology data, seem to be inaccurately presented:

      a) The estimation of how much the histologically verified recording location differs from the intended recording location is valuable information. Importantly, this paper provides citable evidence for why that is important. However, histological verification of recording sites is standard practice in the field, even if not all studies report them. Although we appreciate the authors' effort to further motivate this practice, the current description in the paper may give readers outside the field a false impression of the level of rigor in the field.

      We agree that labs typically do perform histological verification. Still, our methods offer a substantial improvement over standard practice, and this was critical in allowing us to identify errors in targeting. For instance, we used new software, LASAGNA, which is an innovation over the traditional, more informal approach to localizing recording sites. Second, the requirement that two independent reviewers concur on each proposed location for a recording site is also an improvement over standard practice. Importantly, these reviewers use electrophysiological features to more precisely localize electrodes, when needed, which is an improvement over many labs. Finally, most labs use standard 2D atlases to identify recording location (a traditional approach); our use of a 3D atlas and a modern image registration pipeline has improved the accuracy of identifying the true placement of probes in 3D space.

      Importantly, we don’t necessarily advocate that all labs adopt our pipeline; indeed, this would be infeasible for many labs. Instead, our hope is that the variability in probe trajectory that we uncovered will be taken into account in future studies. Here are 3 example ways in which that could happen. First, groups hoping to target a small area for an experiment might elect to use a larger cohort than previously planned, knowing that some insertions will miss their target. Second, our observation that some targeting error arose because experimenters had to move probes due to blood vessels will impact future surgeries: when an experimenter realizes that a blood vessel is in the way, they might still re-position the probe, but they can also adjust its trajectory (e.g., changing the angle) knowing that even little nudges to avoid blood vessels can have a large impact on the resulting insertion trajectory. Third, our observation of a 7 degree deviation between stereotaxic coordinates and Allen Institute coordinates can be used for future trajectory planning steps to improve accuracy of placement. Uncovering this deviation required many insertions and our standardized pipeline, but now that it is known, it can be easily corrected without needing such a pipeline.

      We thank the reviewer for bringing up this issue and have added new text (and modified existing text) in the Discussion to highlight the innovations we introduced that allowed us to carefully quantify probe trajectory across labs (lines 500 - 515):

      “Our ability to detect targeting error benefited from an automated histological pipeline combined with alignment and tracing that required agreement between multiple users, an approach that greatly exceeds the histological analyses done by most individual labs. Our approach, which enables scalability and standardization across labs while minimizing subjective variability, revealed that much of the variance in targeting was due to the probe entry positions at the brain surface, which were randomly displaced across the dataset. … Detecting this offset relied on a large cohort size and an automated histological pipeline, but now that we have identified the offset, it can be easily accounted for by any lab. Specifically, probe angles must be carefully computed from the CCF, as the CCF and stereotaxic coordinate systems do not define the same coronal plane angle. Minimizing variance in probe targeting is another important element in increasing reproducibility, as slight deviations in probe entry position and angle can lead to samples from different populations of neurons. Collecting structural MRI data in advance of implantation could reduce targeting error, although this is infeasible for most labs. A more feasible solution is to rely on stereotaxic coordinates but account for the inevitable off-target measurements by increasing cohort sizes and adjusting probe angles when blood vessels obscure the desired location.”

      b) When identifying which and how neurons encode particular aspects of stimuli or behaviour in behaving animals (when variables are correlated by the nature of the animals behaviour), it has become the standard in behavioral systems neuroscience to use GLMs - indeed many labs participating in the IBL also has a long history of doing this (e.g., Steinmetz et al., 2019; Musall et al., 2023; Orsolic et al., 2021; Park et al., 2014). The reproducibility of results when using GLMs is never explicitly shown, but the supplementary figures to Figure 7 indicate that results may be reproducible across labs when using GLMs (as it has similar prediction performance to the MTNN). This should be introduced as the first analysis method used in a new dedicated figure (i.e., following Figure 3 and showing results of analyses similar to what was shown for the MTNN in Figure 7). This will help put into perspective the degree of reproducibility issues the field is facing when analyzing with appropriate and common methods. The authors can then go on to show how simpler approaches (currently in Figures 4 and 5) - not accounting for a lot of uncontrolled variabilities when working with behaving animals - may cause reproducibility issues.

      We fully agree with the reviewer's suggestion. We have addressed their concern by implementing a Reduced-Rank Regression (RRR) model, which builds upon and extends the principles of Generalized Linear Models (GLMs). The RRR model retains the core regression framework of GLMs while introducing shared, trainable temporal bases across neurons, enhancing the model’s capacity to capture the structure in neural activity (Posani, Wang, et al., bioRxiv, 2024). Importantly, Posani, Wang et al compared the predictive performance of GLMs vs the RRR model, and found that the RRR model provided (slightly) improved performance, so we chose the RRR approach here.

      We highlight this analysis in a new section (lines 350-377) titled, “Single neuron coefficients from a regression-based analysis are reproducible across labs”. This section includes an entirely new Figure (Fig. 7), where this new analysis felt most appropriate, since it is closer in spirit to the MTNN analysis that follows (rather than as a new Figure 3, as the reviewer suggested). As the reviewer hoped, this analysis provides some reassurance that including many variables when characterizing neural activity furnishes results with improved reproducibility. We now state this in the Results and the Discussion (line 456-457), highlighting that these analyses complement the more traditional selectivity analyses, and that using both methods together can be informative.

      When the authors introduce a neural network approach (i.e. MTNN) as an alternative to the analyses in Figures 4 and 5, they suggest: 'generalized linear models (GLMs) are likely too inflexible to capture the nonlinear contributions that many of these variables, including lab identity and spatial positions of neurons, might make to neural activity'). This is despite the comparison between MTNN and GLM prediction performance (Supplement 1 to Figure 7) showing that the MTNN is only slightly better at predicting neural activity compared to standard GLMs. The introduction of new models to capture neural variability is always welcome, but the conclusion that standard analyses in the field are not reproducible can be unfair unless directly compared to GLMs.

      In essence, it is really useful to demonstrate how different analysis methods and preprocessing approaches affect reproducibility. But the authors should highlight what is actually standard in the field, and then provide suggestions to improve from there.

      Thanks again for these comments. We have also edited the MTNN section slightly to accommodate the addition of the previous new RRR section (line 401-402).

      (2) The authors attempt to establish a series of new quality control metrics for the inclusion of recordings and single units. This is much needed, with the goal to standardize unit inclusion across labs that bypasses the manual process while keeping the nuances from manual curation. However, the authors should benchmark these metrics to other automated metrics and to manual curation, which is still a gold standard in the field. The authors did this for whole-session assessment but not for individual clusters. If the authors can find metrics that capture agreed-upon manual cluster labels, without the need for manual intervention, that would be extremely helpful for the field.

      We thank the reviewer for their insightful suggestions regarding benchmarking our quality control metrics against manual curation and other automated methods at the level of individual clusters. We are indeed, as the reviewer notes, publishing results from spike sorting outputs that have been automatically but not manually verified on a neuron-by-neuron basis. To get to the point where we trust these results to be of publishable quality, we manually reviewed hundreds of recordings and thousands of neurons, refining both the preprocessing pipeline and the single-unit quality metrics along the way. All clusters, both those passing QCs and those not passing QCs, are available to review with detailed plots and quantifications at https://viz.internationalbrainlab.org/app (turn on “show advanced metrics” in the upper right, and navigate to the plots furthest down the page, which are at the individual unit level). We would emphasize that these metrics are definitely imperfect (and fully-automated spike sorting remains a work in progress), but so is manual clustering. Our fully automated approach has the advantage of being fully reproducible, which is absolutely critical for the analyses in the present paper. Indeed, if we had actually done manual clustering or curation, one would wonder whether our results were actually reproducible independently. Nevertheless, it is not part of the present manuscript’s objectives to validate or defend these specific choices for automated metrics, which have been described in detail elsewhere (see our Spike Sorting whitepaper, https://figshare.com/articles/online_resource/Spike_sorting_pipeline_for_the_International_Brain_La boratory/19705522?file=49783080). It would be a valuable exercise to thoroughly compare these metrics against a careful, large, manually-curated set, but doing this properly would be a paper in itself and is beyond the scope of the current paper. We also acknowledge that our analyses studying reproducibility across labs could, in principle, result in more or less reproducibility under a different choice of metrics, which we now describe in the Discussion (line 469-470)”:

      “Another significant limitation of the analysis presented here is that we have not been able to assess the extent to which other choices of quality metrics and inclusion criteria might have led to greater or lesser reproducibility.”

      (3) With the goal of improving reproducibility and providing new guidelines for standard practice for data analysis, the authors should report of n of cells, sessions, and animals used in plots and analyses throughout the paper to aid both understanding of the variability in the plots - but also to set a good example.

      We wholeheartedly agree and have added the number of cells, mice and sessions for each figure. This information is included as new tabs in our quality control spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_bJLDG0HNLFx3SOb4GxLxL52H4R2uPRcpUlIw6n4 n-E/). This is referred to in line 158-159 (as well as its original location on line 554 in the section, “Quality control and data inclusion”).

      Other general comments:

      (1) In the discussion (line 383) the authors conclude: 'This is reassuring, but points to the need for large sample sizes of neurons to overcome the inherent variability of single neuron recording'. - Based on what is presented in this paper we would rather say that their results suggest that appropriate analytical choices are needed to ensure reproducibility, rather than large datasets - and they need to show whether using standard GLMs actually allows for reproducible results.

      Thanks. The new GLM-style RRR analysis in Figure 7, following the reviewer’s suggestion, does indeed indicate improved reproducibility across labs. As described above, we see this new analysis as complementary to more traditional analyses of neural selectivity and argue that the two can be used together. The new text (line 461) states:

      “This is reassuring, and points to the need for appropriate analytical choices to ensure reproducibility.”

      (2) A general assumption in the across-lab reproducibility questions in the paper relies on intralab variability vs across-lab variability. An alternative measure that may better reflect experimental noise is across-researcher variability, as well as the amount of experimenter experience (if the latter is a factor, it could suggest researchers may need more training before collecting data for publication). The authors state in the discussion that this is not possible. But maybe certain measures can be used to assess this (e.g. years of conducting surgeries/ephys recordings etc)?

      We agree that understanding experimenter-to-experimenter variability would be very interesting and indeed we had hoped to do this analysis for some time. The problem is that typically, each lab employed one trainee to conduct all the data collection. This prevents us from comparing outcomes from two different experimenters in the same lab. There are exceptions to this, such as the Churchland lab in which 3 personnel (two postdocs and a technician) collected the data. However, even this fortuitous situation did not lend itself well to assessing experimenter-to-experimenter variation: the Churchland lab moved from Cold Spring Harbor to UCLA during the data collection period, which might have caused variability that is totally independent of experimenter (e.g., different animal facilities). Further, once at UCLA, the postdoc and technician worked closely together- alternating roles in animal training, surgery and electrophysiology. We believe that the text in our current Discussion (line 465-468) accurately characterizes the situation:

      “Our experimental design precludes an analysis of whether the reproducibility we observed was driven by person-to-person standardization or lab-to-lab standardization. Most likely, both factors contributed: all lab personnel received standardized instructions for how to implant head bars and train animals, which likely reduced personnel-driven differences.”

      Quantifying the level of experience of each experimenter is an appealing idea and we share the reviewer’s curiosity about its impact on data quality. Unfortunately, quantifying experience is tricky. For instance, years of conducting surgeries is not an unambiguously determinable number. Would we count an experimenter who did surgery every day for a year as having the same experience as an experimenter who did surgery once/month for a year? Would we count a surgeon with expertise in other areas (e.g., windows for imaging) in the same way as surgeons with expertise in ephys-specific surgeries? Because of the ambiguities, we leave this analysis to be the subject of future work; this is now stated in the Discussion (line 476).

      (3) Figure 3b and c: Are these plots before or after the probe depth has been adjusted based on physiological features such as the LFP power? In other words, is the IBL electrophysiological alignment toolbox used here and is the reliability of location before using physiological criteria or after? Beyond clarification, showing both before and after would help the readers to understand how much the additional alignment based on electrophysiological features adjusts probe location. It would also be informative if they sorted these penetrations by which penetrations were closest to the planned trajectory after histological verification.

      The plots in Figure 3b and 3c reflect data after the probe depth has been adjusted based on electrophysiological features. This adjustment incorporates criteria such as LFP power and spiking activity to refine the trajectory and ensure precise alignment with anatomical landmarks. The trajectories have also been reviewed and confirmed by two independent reviewers. We have clarified this in line 180 and in the caption of Figure 3.

      To address this concern, we have added a new panel c in Figure 3 supplementary 1 (also shown below) that shows the LFP features along the probes prior to using the IBL alignment toolbox. We hope the reviewer agrees that a comparison of panels (a) and (c) below make clear the improvement afforded by our alignment tools.

      In Figure 3 and Figure 3 supplementary 1, as suggested, we have also now sorted the probes by those that were closest to the planned trajectory. This way of visualizing the data makes it clear that as the distance from the planned trajectory increases, the power spectral density in the hippocampal regions becomes less pronounced and the number of probes that have a large portion of the channels localized to VISa/am, LP and PO decreases. We have added text to the caption to describe this. We thank the reviewer for this suggestion and agree that it will help readers to understand how much the additional alignment (based on electrophysiological features) adjusts probe location.

      (4) In Figures 4 and 6: If the authors use a 0.05 threshold (alpha) and a cell simply has to be significant on 1/6 tests to be considered task modulated, that means that they have a false positive rate of ~30% (0.05*6=0.3). We ran a simple simulation looking for significant units (from random null distribution) from these criteria which shows that out of 100.000 units, 26500 units would come out significant (false error rate: 26.5%). That is very high (and unlikely to be accepted in most papers), and therefore not surprising that the fraction of task-modulated units across labs is highly variable. This high false error rate may also have implications for the investigation of the spatial position of task-modulated units (as effects of the spatial position may drown in falsely labelled 'task-modulated' cells).

      Thank you for this concern. The different tests were kept separate, so we did not consider a neuron modulated if it was significant in only one out of six tests, but instead we asked whether a neuron was modulated according to test one, whether it was modulated according to test two, etc., and performed further analyses separately for each test. Thus, we are only vulnerable to the ‘typical’ false positive rate of 0.05 for any given test. We made this clearer in the text (lines 232-236) and hope that the 5% false positive rate seems more acceptable.

      (5) The authors state from Figure 5b that the majority of cells could be well described by 2 PCs. The distribution of R2 across neurons is almost uniform, so depending on what R2 value one considers a 'good' description, that is the fraction of 'good' cells. Furthermore, movement onset has now been well-established to be affecting cells widely and in large fractions, so while this analysis may work for something with global influence - like movement - more sparsely encoded variables (as many are in the brain) may not be well approximated with this suggestion. The authors could expand this analysis into other epochs like activity around stimulus presentation, to better understand how this type of analysis reproduces across labs for features that have a less global influence.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion and fully agree that the window used in our original analysis would tend to favor movement-driven neurons. To address this, we repeated the analysis, this time using a window centered around stimulus onset (from -0.5 s prior to stimulus onset until 0.1 s after stimulus onset). As the reviewer suspected, far fewer neurons were active in this window and consequently far fewer were modelled well by the first two PCs, as shown in Author response image 1b (below). Similar to our original analysis using the post-movement window, we found mixed results for the stimulus-centered window across labs. Interestingly, regional differences were weaker in this new analysis compared to the original analysis of the post-movement window. We have added a sentence to the results describing this. Because the results are similar to the post-movement window main figure, we would prefer to restrict the new analysis only to this point-by-point response, in the hopes of streamlining the paper.

      Author response image 1.

      PCA analysis applied to a stimulus-aligned window ([-0.5, 0.1] sec relative to stim onset). Figure conventions as in main text Fig 5. Results are comparable to the post-movement window analysis, however regional differences are weaker here, possibly because fewer cells were active in the pre-movement window. We added panel j here and in the main figure, showing cell-number-controlled results. I.e. for each test, the minimum neuron number of the compared classes was sampled from all classes (say labs in a region), this sampling was repeated 1000 times and p-values combined via Fisher’s method, overall resulting in much fewer significant differences across laboratories and, independently, regions.

      (6) Additionally, in Figure 5i: could the finding that one can only distinguish labs when taking cells from all regions, simply be a result of a different number of cells recorded in each region for each lab? It makes more sense to focus on the lab/area pairing as the authors also do, but not to make their main conclusion from it. If the authors wish to do the comparison across regions, they will need to correct for the number of cells recorded in each region for each lab. In general, it was a struggle to fully understand the purpose of Figure 5. While population analysis and dimensionality reduction are commonplace, this seems to be a very unusual use of it.

      We agree that controlling for varying cell numbers is a valuable addition to this analysis. We added panel j in Fig. 5 showing cell-number-controlled test results of panel i. I.e. for a given statistical comparison, we sample the lowest number of cells of compared classes from the others, do the test, and repeat this sampling 1000 times, before combining the p-values using Fisher’s method. This cell-number controlled version of the tests resulted in clearly fewer significant differences across distributions - seen similarly for the pre-movement window shown in j in Author response image 1. We hope this clarified our aim to illustrate that low-dimensional embedding of cells’ trial-averaged activity can show how regional differences compare with laboratory differences.

      As a complementary statistical analysis to the shown KS tests, we fitted a linear-mixed-effects model (statsmodels.formula.api mixedlm), to the first and second PC for both activity windows (“Move”: [-0.5,1] first movement aligned; “Stim”: [-0.5,0.1] stimulus onset aligned), independently. Author response image 2 (in this rebuttal only) is broadly in line with the KS results, showing more regional than lab influences on the distributions of first PCs for the post-movement window.

      Author response image 2:

      Linear mixed effects model results for two PCs and two activity windows. For the post-movement window (“Move”), regional influences are significant (red color in plots) for all but one region while only one lab has a significant model coefficient for PC1. For PC2 more labs and three regions have significant coefficients. For the pre-movement window (“Stim”) one region for PC1 or PC2 has significant coefficients. The variance due to session id was smaller than all other effects (“eids Var”). “Intercept” shows the expected value of the response variable (PC1, PC2) before accounting for any fixed or random effects. All p-values were grouped as one hypothesis family and corrected for multiple comparisons via Benjamini-Hochberg.

      (7) In the discussion the authors state: " Indeed this approach is a more effective and streamlined way of doing it, but it is questionable whether it 'exceeds' what is done in many labs.

      Classically, scientists trace each probe manually with light microscopy and designate each area based on anatomical landmarks identified with nissl or dapi stains together with gross landmarks. When not automated with 2-PI serial tomography and anatomically aligned to a standard atlas, this is a less effective process, but it is not clear that it is less precise, especially in studies before neuropixels where active electrodes were located in a much smaller area. While more effective, transforming into a common atlas does make additional assumptions about warping the brain into the standard atlas - especially in cases where the brain has been damaged/lesioned. Readers can appreciate the effectiveness and streamlining provided by these new tools without the need to invalidate previous approaches.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting the effectiveness of manual tracing methods used traditionally. Our intention in the statement was not to invalidate the precision or value of these classical methods but rather to emphasize the scalability and streamlining offered by our pipeline. We have revised the language to more accurately reflect this (line 500-504):

      “Our ability to detect targeting error benefited from an automated histological pipeline combined with alignment and tracing that required agreement between multiple users, an approach that greatly exceeds the histological analyses done by most individual labs. Our approach, which enables scalability and standardization across labs while minimizing subjective variability, revealed that much of the variance in targeting was due to the probe entry positions at the brain surface, which were randomly displaced across the dataset.”

      (8) What about across-lab population-level representation of task variables, such as in the coding direction for stimulus or choice? Is the general decodability of task variables from the population comparable across labs?

      Excellent question, thanks! We have added the new section “Decodability of task variables is consistent across labs, but varies by brain region” (line 423-448) and Figure 9 in the revised manuscript to address this question. In short, yes, the general decodability of task variables from the population is comparable across labs, providing additional reassurance of reproducibility.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors sought to evaluate whether observations made in separate individual laboratories are reproducible when they use standardized procedures and quality control measures. This is a key question for the field. If ten systems neuroscience labs try very hard to do the exact same experiment and analyses, do they get the same core results? If the answer is no, this is very bad news for everyone else! Fortunately, they were able to reproduce most of their experimental findings across all labs. Despite attempting to target the same brain areas in each recording, variability in electrode targeting was a source of some differences between datasets.

      Major Comments:

      The paper had two principal goals:

      (1) to assess reproducibility between labs on a carefully coordinated experiment

      (2) distill the knowledge learned into a set of standards that can be applied across the field.

      The manuscript made progress towards both of these goals but leaves room for improvement.

      (1) The first goal of the study was to perform exactly the same experiment and analyses across 10 different labs and see if you got the same results. The rationale for doing this was to test how reproducible large-scale rodent systems neuroscience experiments really are. In this, the study did a great job showing that when a consortium of labs went to great lengths to do everything the same, even decoding algorithms could not discern laboratory identity was not clearly from looking at the raw data. However, the amount of coordination between the labs was so great that these findings are hard to generalize to the situation where similar (or conflicting!) results are generated by two labs working independently.

      Importantly, the study found that electrode placement (and thus likely also errors inherent to the electrode placement reconstruction pipeline) was a key source of variability between datasets. To remedy this, they implemented a very sophisticated electrode reconstruction pipeline (involving two-photon tomography and multiple blinded data validators) in just one lab-and all brains were sliced and reconstructed in this one location. This is a fantastic approach for ensuring similar results within the IBL collaboration, but makes it unclear how much variance would have been observed if each lab had attempted to reconstruct their probe trajectories themselves using a mix of histology techniques from conventional brain slicing, to light sheet microscopy, to MRI imaging.

      This approach also raises a few questions. The use of standard procedures, pipelines, etc. is a great goal, but most labs are trying to do something unique with their setup. Bigger picture, shouldn't highly "significant" biological findings akin to the discovery of place cells or grid cells, be so clear and robust that they can be identified with different recording modalities and analysis pipelines?

      We agree, and hope that this work may help readers understand what effect sizes may be considered “clear and robust” from datasets like these. We certainly support the reviewer’s point that multiple approaches and modalities can help to confirm any biological findings, but we would contend that a clear understanding of the capabilities and limitations of each approach is valuable, and we hope that our paper helps to achieve this.

      Related to this, how many labs outside of the IBL collaboration have implemented the IBL pipeline for their own purposes? In what aspects do these other labs find it challenging to reproduce the approaches presented in the paper? If labs were supposed to perform this same experiment, but without coordinating directly, how much more variance between labs would have been seen? Obviously investigating these topics is beyond the scope of this paper. The current manuscript is well-written and clear as is, and I think it is a valuable contribution to the field. However, some additional discussion of these issues would be helpful.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this important issue. We know of at least 13 labs that have implemented the behavioral task software and hardware that we published in eLife in 2021, and we expect that over the next several years labs will also implement these analysis pipelines (note that it is considerably cheaper and faster to implement software pipelines than hardware). In particular, a major goal of the staff in the coming years is to continue and improve the support for pipeline deployment and use. However, our goal in this work, which we have aimed to state more clearly in the revised manuscript, was not so much to advocate that others adopt our pipeline, but instead to use our standardized approach as a means of assessing reproducibility under the best of circumstances (see lines 48-52): “A high level of reproducibility of results across laboratories when procedures are carefully matched is a prerequisite to reproducibility in the more common scenario in which two investigators approach the same high-level question with slightly different experimental protocols.”

      Further, a number of our findings are relevant to other labs regardless of whether they implement our exact pipeline, a modified version of our pipeline, or something else entirely. For example, we found probe targeting to be a large source of variability. Our ability to detect targeting error benefited from an automated histological pipeline combined with alignment and tracing that required agreement between multiple users, but now that we have identified the offset, it can be easily accounted for by any lab. Specifically, probe angles must be carefully computed from the CCF, as the CCF and stereotaxic coordinate systems do not define the same coronal plane angle. Relatedly, we found that slight deviations in probe entry position can lead to samples from different populations of neurons. Although this took large cohort sizes to discover, knowledge of this discovery means that future experiments can plan for larger cohort sizes to allow for off-target trajectories, and can re-compute probe angle when the presence of blood vessels necessitates moving probes slightly. These points are now highlighted in the Discussion (lines 500-515).

      Second, the proportion of responsive neurons (a quantity often used to determine that a particular area subserves a particular function), sometimes failed to reproduce across labs. For example, for movement-driven activity in PO, UCLA reported an average change of 0 spikes/s, while CCU reported a large and consistent change (Figure 4d, right most panel, compare orange vs. yellow traces). This argues that neuron-to-neuron variability means that comparisons across labs require large cohort sizes. A small number of outlier neurons in a session can heavily bias responses. We anticipate that this problem will be remedied as tools for large scale neural recordings become more widely used. Indeed, the use of 4-shank instead of single-shank Neuropixels (as we used here) would have greatly enhanced the number of PO neurons we measured in each session. We have added new text to Results explaining this (lines 264-268):

      “We anticipate that the feasibility of even larger scale recordings will make lab-to-lab comparisons easier in future experiments; multi-shank probes could be especially beneficial for cortical recordings, which tend to be the most vulnerable to low cell counts since the cortex is thin and is the most superficial structure in the brain and thus the most vulnerable to damage. Analyses that characterize responses to multiple parameters are another possible solution (See Figure 7).”

      (2) The second goal of the study was to present a set of data curation standards (RIGOR) that could be applied widely across the field. This is a great idea, but its implementation needs to be improved if adoption outside of the IBL is to be expected. Here are three issues:

      (a) The GitHub repo for this project (https://github.com/int-brain-lab/paper-reproducible-ephys/) is nicely documented if the reader's goal is to reproduce the figures in the manuscript. Consequently, the code for producing the RIGOR statistics seems mostly designed for re-computing statistics on the existing IBL-formatted datasets. There doesn't appear to be any clear documentation about how to run it on arbitrary outputs from a spike sorter (i.e. the inputs to Phy).

      We agree that clear documentation is key for others to adopt our standards. To address this, we have added a section at the end of the README of the repository that links to a jupyter notebook (https://github.com/int-brain-lab/paper-reproducible-ephys/blob/master/RIGOR_script.ipynb) that runs the RIGOR metrics on a user’s own spike sorted dataset. The notebook also contains a tutorial that walks through how to visually assess the quality of the raw and spike sorted data, and computes the noise level metrics on the raw data as well as the single cell metrics on the spike sorted data.

      (b) Other sets of spike sorting metrics that are more easily computed for labs that are not using the IBL pipeline already exist (e.g. "quality_metrics" from the Allen Institute ecephys pipeline [https://github.com/AllenInstitute/ecephys_spike_sorting/blob/main/ecephys_spike_sorting/m odules/quality_metrics/README.md] and the similar module in the Spike Interface package [https://spikeinterface.readthedocs.io/en/latest/modules/qualitymetrics.html]). The manuscript does not compare these approaches to those proposed here, but some of the same statistics already exist (amplitude cutoff, median spike amplitude, refractory period violation).

      There is a long history of researchers providing analysis algorithms and code for spike sorting quality metrics, and we agree that the Allen Institute’s ecephys code and the Spike Interface package are the current options most widely used (but see also, for example, Fabre et al. https://github.com/Julie-Fabre/bombcell). Our primary goal in the present work is not to advocate for a particular implementation of any quality metrics (or any spike sorting algorithm, for that matter), but instead to assess reproducibility of results, given one specific choice of spike sorting algorithm and quality metrics. That is why, in our comparison of yield across datasets (Fig 1F), we downloaded the raw data from those comparison datasets and re-ran them under our single fixed pipeline, to establish a fair standard of comparison. A full comparison of the analyses presented here under different choices of quality metrics and spike sorting algorithms would undoubtedly be interesting and useful for the field - however, we consider it to be beyond the scope of the present work. It is therefore an important assumption of our work that the result would not differ materially under a different choice of sorting algorithm and quality metrics. We have added text to the Discussion to clarify this limitation:

      “Another significant limitation of the analysis presented here is that we have not been able to assess the extent to which other choices of quality metrics and inclusion criteria might have led to greater or lesser reproducibility.”

      That said, we still intend for external users to be able to easily run our pipelines and quality metrics.

      (c) Some of the RIGOR criteria are qualitative and must be visually assessed manually. Conceptually, these features make sense to include as metrics to examine, but would ideally be applied in a standardized way across the field. The manuscript doesn't appear to contain a detailed protocol for how to assess these features. A procedure for how to apply these criteria for curating non-IBL data (or for implementing an automated classifier) would be helpful.

      We agree. To address this, we have provided a notebook that runs the RIGOR metrics on a user’s own dataset, and contains a tutorial on how to interpret the resulting plots and metrics (https://github.com/int-brain-lab/paper-reproducible-ephys/blob/master/RIGOR_script.ipynb).

      Within this notebook there is a section focused on visually assessing the quality of both the raw data and the spike sorted data. The code in this section can be used to generate plots, such as raw data snippets or the raster map of the spiking activity, which are typically used to visually assess the quality of the data. In Figure 1 Supplement 2 we have provided examples of such plots that show different types of artifactual activity that should be inspected.

      Other Comments:

      (1) How did the authors select the metrics they would use to evaluate reproducibility? Was this selection made before doing the study?

      Our metrics were selected on the basis of our experience and expertise with extracellular electrophysiology. For example: some of us previously published on epileptiform activity and its characteristics in some mice (Steinmetz et al. 2017), so we included detection of that type of artifact here; and, some of us previously published detailed investigations of instability in extracellular electrophysiological recordings and methods for correcting them (Steinmetz et al. 2021, Windolf et al. 2024), so we included assessment of that property here. These metrics therefore represent our best expert knowledge about the kinds of quality issues that can affect this type of dataset, but it is certainly possible that future investigators will discover and characterize other quality issues.

      The selection of metrics was primarily performed before the study (we used these assessments internally before embarking on the extensive quantifications reported here), and in cases where we refined them further during the course of preparing this work, it was done without reference to statistical results on reproducibility but instead on the basis of manual inspection of data quality and metric performance.

      (2) Was reproducibility within-lab dependent on experimenter identity?

      We thank the reviewer for this question. We have addressed it in our response to R1 General comment 2, as follows:

      We agree that understanding experimenter-to-experimenter variability would be very interesting and indeed we had hoped to do this analysis for some time. The problem is that typically, each lab employed one trainee to conduct all the data collection. This prevents us from comparing outcomes from two different experimenters in the same lab. There are exceptions to this, such as the Churchland lab in which 3 personnel (two postdocs and a technician) collected the data. However, even this fortuitous situation did not lend itself well to assessing experimenter-to-experimenter variation: the Churchland lab moved from Cold Spring Harbor to UCLA during the data collection period, which might have caused variability that is totally independent of experimenter (e.g., different animal facilities). Further, once at UCLA, the postdoc and technician worked closely together- alternating roles in animal training, surgery and electrophysiology. We believe that the text in our current Discussion (line 465-468) accurately characterizes the situation:

      “Our experimental design precludes an analysis of whether the reproducibility we observed was driven by person-to-person standardization or lab-to-lab standardization. Most likely, both factors contributed: all lab personnel received standardized instructions for how to implant head bars and train animals, which likely reduced personnel-driven differences.”

      Quantifying the level of experience of each experimenter is an appealing idea and we share the reviewer’s curiosity about its impact on data quality. Unfortunately, quantifying experience is tricky. For instance, years of conducting surgeries is not an unambiguously determinable number. Would we count an experimenter who did surgery every day for a year as having the same experience as an experimenter who did surgery once/month for a year? Would we count a surgeon with expertise in other areas (e.g., windows for imaging) in the same way as surgeons with expertise in ephys-specific surgeries? Because of the ambiguities, we leave this analysis to be the subject of future work; this is now stated in the Discussion (line 476).

      (3) They note that UCLA and UW datasets tended to miss deeper brain region targets (lines 185-188) - they do not speculate why these labs show systematic differences. Were they not following standardized procedures?

      Thank you for raising this point. All researchers across labs were indeed following standardised procedures. We note that our statistical analysis of probe targeting coordinates and angles did not reveal a significant effect of lab identity on targeting error, even though we noted the large number of mis-targeted recordings in UCLA and UW to help draw attention to the appropriate feature in the figure. Given that these differences were not statistically significant, we can see how it was misleading to call out these two labs specifically. While the overall probe placement surface error and angle error both show no such systematic difference, the magnitude of surface error showed a non-significant tendency to be higher for samples in UCLA & UW, which, compounded with the direction of probe angle error, caused these probe insertions to land in a final location outside LP & PO.

      This shows how subtle differences in probe placement & angle accuracy can lead to compounded inaccuracies at the probe tip, especially when targeting deep brain regions, even when following standard procedures. We believe this is driven partly by the accuracy limit or resolution of the stereotaxic system, along with slight deviations in probe angle, occurring during the setup of the stereotaxic coordinate system during these recordings.

      We have updated the relevant text in lines 187-190 as follows, to clarify:

      “Several trajectories missed their targets in deeper brain regions (LP, PO), as indicated by gray blocks, despite the lack of significant lab-dependent effects in targeting as reported above. These off-target trajectories tended to have both a large displacement from the target insertion coordinates and a probe angle that unfavorably drew the insertions away from thalamic nuclei (Figure 2f).”

      (4) The authors suggest that geometrical variance (difference between planned and final identified probe position acquired from reconstructed histology) in probe placement at the brain surface is driven by inaccuracies in defining the stereotaxic coordinate system, including discrepancies between skull landmarks and the underlying brain structures. In this case, the use of skull landmarks (e.g. bregma) to determine locations of brain structures might be unreliable and provide an error of ~360 microns. While it is known that there is indeed variance in the position between skull landmarks and brain areas in different animals, the quantification of this error is a useful value for the field.

      We thank the reviewer for their thoughtful comment and are glad that they found the quantification of variance useful for the field.

      (5) Why are the thalamic recording results particularly hard to reproduce? Does the anatomy of the thalamus simply make it more sensitive to small errors in probe positioning relative to the other recorded areas?

      We thank the reviewer for raising this interesting question. We believe that they are referring to Figure 4: indeed when we analyzed the distribution of firing rate modulations, we saw some failures of reproducibility in area PO (bottom panel, Figure 4h). However, the thalamic nuclei were not, in other analyses, more vulnerable to failures in reproducibility. For example, in the top panel of Figure 4h, VisAM shows failures of reproducibility for modulation by the visual stimulus. In Fig. 5i, area CA1 showed a failure of reproducibility. We fear that the figure legend title in the previous version (which referred to the thalamus specifically) was misleading, and we have revised this. The new title is, “Neural activity is modulated during decision-making in five neural structures and is variable between laboratories.” This new text more accurately reflects that there were a number of small, idiosyncratic failures of reproducibility, but that these were not restricted to a specific structure. The new analysis requested by R1 (now in Figure 7) provides further reassurance of overall reproducibility, including in the thalamus (see Fig. 7a, right panels; lab identity could not be decoded from single neuron metrics, even in the thalamus).

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Figure font sizes and formatting are variable across panels and figures. Please streamline the presentation of results.

      Thank you for your feedback. We have remade all figures with the same standardized font sizes and formatting.

      (2) Please correct the noncontinuous color scales in Figures 3b and 3d.

      Thank you for pointing this out, we fixed the color bar.

      (3) In Figures 5d and g, the error bars are described as: 'Error bands are standard deviation across cells normalised by the square root of the number of sessions in the region'. How does one interpret this error? It seems to be related to the standard error of the mean (std/sqrt(n)) but instead of using the n from which the standard deviation is calculated (in this case across cells), the authors use the number of sessions as n. If they took the standard deviation across sessions this would be the sem across sessions, and interpretable (as sem*1.96 is the 95% parametric confidence interval of the mean). Please justify why these error bands are used here and how they can be interpreted - it also seems like it is the only time these types of error bands are used.

      We agree and for clarity use standard error across cells now, as the error bars do not change dramatically either way.

      (4) It is difficult to understand what is plotted in Figures 5e,h, please unpack this further and clarify.

      Thank you for pointing this out. We have added additional explanation in the figure caption (See caption for Figure 5c) to explain the KS test.

      (5) In lines 198-201 the authors state that they were worried that Bonferroni correction with 5 criteria would be too lenient, and therefore used 0.01 as alpha. I am unsure whether the authors mean that they are correcting for multiple comparisons across features or areas. Either way, 0.01 alpha is exactly what a Bonferroni corrected alpha would be when correcting for either 5 features or 5 areas: 0.05/5=0.01. Or do they mean they apply the Bonferroni correction to the new 0.01 alpha: i.e., 0.01/5=0.002? Please clarify.

      Thank you, that was indeed written confusingly. We considered all tests and regions as whole, so 7 tests * 5 regions = 35 tests, which would result in a very strong Bonferroni correction. Indeed, if one considers the different tests individually, the correction we apply from 0.05 to 0.01 can be considered as correcting for the number of regions, which we now highlight better. We apply no further corrections of any kind to our alpha=0.01. We clarified this in the manuscript in all relevant places (lines 205-208, 246, 297-298, and 726-727).

      (6) Did the authors take into account how many times a probe was used/how clean the probe was before each recording. Was this streamlined between labs? This can have an effect on yield and quality of recording.

      We appreciate the reviewer highlighting the potential impact of probe use and cleanliness on recording quality and yield. While we did not track the number of times each probe was used, we ensured that all probes were cleaned thoroughly after each use using a standardized cleaning protocol (Section 16: Cleaning the electrode after data acquisition in Appendix 2: IBL protocol for electrophysiology recording using Neuropixels probe). We acknowledge that tracking the specific usage history of each probe could provide additional insights, but unfortunately we did not track this information for this project. In prior work the re-usability of probes has been quantified, showing insignificant degradation with use (e.g. Extended Data Fig 7d from Jun et al. 2017).

      (7) Figure 3, Supplement1: DY_013 missed DG entirely? Was this included in the analysis?

      Thank you for this question. We believe the reviewer is referring to the lack of a prominent high-amplitude LFP band in this mouse, and lack of high-quality sorted units in that region. Despite this, our histology did localize the recording trajectory to DG. This recording did pass our quality control criteria overall, as indicated by the green label, and was used in relevant analyses.

      The lack of normal LFP features and neuron yield might reflect the range of biological variability (several other sessions also have relatively weak DG LFP and yield, though DY_013 is the weakest), or could reflect some damage to the tissue, for example as caused by local bleeding. Because we could not conclusively identify the source of this observation, we did not exclude it.

      (8) Given that the authors argue for using the MTNN over GLMs, it would be useful to know exactly how much better the MTNN is at predicting activity in the held-out dataset (shown in Figure 7, Supplement 1). It looks like a very small increase in prediction performance between MTNN and GLMs, is it significantly different?

      The average variance explained on the held-out dataset, as shown in Figure 8–Figure Supplement 1 Panel B, is 0.065 for the GLMs and 0.071 for the MTNN. As the reviewer correctly noted, this difference is not significant. However, one of the key advantages of the MTNN over GLMs lies in its flexibility to easily incorporate covariates, such as electrophysiological characteristics or session/lab IDs, directly into the analysis. This feature is particularly valuable for assessing effect sizes and understanding the contributions of various factors.

      (9) In line 723: why is the threshold for mean firing rate for a unit to be included in the MTNN results so high (>5Hz), and how does it perform on units with lower firing rates?      

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. The threshold for including units with a mean firing rate above 5 Hz was set because most units with firing rates below this threshold were silent in many trials, and reducing the number of units helped keep the MTNN training time reasonable. Based on this comment, we ran the MTNN experiments including all units with firing rates above 1 Hz, and the results remained consistent with our previous conclusions (Figure 8). Crucially, the leave-one-out analysis consistently showed that lab and session IDs had effect sizes close to zero, indicating that both within-lab and between-lab random effects are small and comparable.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Most of the more major issues were already listed in the above comments. The strongest recommendation for additional work would be to improve the description and implementation of the RIGOR statistics such that non-IBL labs that might use Neuropixels probes but not use the entire IBL pipeline might be able to apply the RIGOR framework to their own data.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting the importance of making the RIGOR statistics more accessible to a broader audience. We agree that improving the description and implementation of the RIGOR framework is essential for facilitation of non-IBL labs using Neuropixels probes. To address this we created a jupyter notebook with step-by-step guidance that is not dependent on the IBL pipeline. This tool (https://github.com/int-brain-lab/paper-reproducible-ephys/blob/develop/RIGOR_script.ipynb) is publicly available through the repository, accompanied by example datasets and usage tutorials.

      (2) Table 1: How are qualitative features like "drift" defined? Some quantitative statistics like "presence ratio" (the fraction of the dataset where spikes are present) already exist in packages like ecephys_spike_sorting. Who measured these qualitative features? What are the best practices for doing these qualitative analyses?

      At the probe level, we compute the estimate of the relative motion of the electrodes to the brain tissue at multiple depths along the electrode. We overlay the drift estimation over a raster plot to detect sharp displacements as a function of time. Quantitatively, the drift is the cumulative absolute electrode motion estimated during spike sorting (µm). We clarified the corresponding text in Table 1.

      The qualitative assessments were carried out by IBL staff and experimentalists. We have now provided code to run the RIGOR metrics along with an embedded tutorial, to complement the supplemental figures we have shown about qualitative metric interpretation.

      (3) Table 1: What are the units for the LFP derivative?

      We thank the reviewer for noting that the unit was missing. The unit (decibel per unit of space) is now in the table.

      (4) Table 1: For "amplitude cutoff", the table says that "each neuron must pass a metric". What is the metric?

      We have revised the table to include this information. This metric was designed to detect potential issues in amplitude distributions caused by thresholding during deconvolution, which could result in missed spikes. There are quantitative thresholds on the distribution of the low tail of the amplitude histogram relative to the high tail, and on the relative magnitude of the bins in the low tail. We now reference the methods text from the table, which includes a more extended description and gives the specific threshold numbers. Also, the metric and thresholds are more easily understood with graphical assistance; see the IBL Spike Sorting Whitepaper for this (Fig. 17 in that document and nearby text; https://doi.org/10.6084/m9.figshare.19705522.v4). This reference is now also cited in the text.

      (5) Figure 2: In panel A, the brain images look corrupted.

      Thanks; in the revised version we have changed the filetype to improve the quality of the panel image.

      (6) Figure 7: In panel D, make R2 into R^2 (with a superscript)

      Panel D y-axis label has been revised to include superscript (note that this figure is now Figure 8).

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      This study extends the previous interesting work of this group to address the potentially differential control of movement and posture. Their earlier work explored a broad range of data to make the case for a downstream neural integrator hypothesized to convert descending velocity movement commands into postural holding commands. Included in that data were observations from people with hemiparesis due to stroke. The current study uses similar data but pushes into a different, but closely related direction, suggesting that these data may address the independence of these two fundamental components of motor control. I find the logic laid out in the second sentence of the abstract ("The paretic arm after stroke is notable for abnormalities both at rest and during movement, thus it provides an opportunity to address the relationships between control of reaching, stopping, and stabilizing") less than compelling, but the study does make some interesting observations. Foremost among them, is the relation between the resting force postural bias and the effect of force perturbations during the target hold periods, but not during movement. While this interesting observation is consistent with the central mechanism the authors suggest, it seems hard to me to rule out other mechanisms, including peripheral ones. 

      Response 1.1. Thank you for your comments, which we address in detail below and in our response to Recommendations to the authors (see pp. 15-19 of this letter). We would first like to clarify the motivation behind our use of a stroke population to understand the interactions between the control of reaching in and holding. We agree that this idea can be laid out in a more compelling way.

      The fact that stroke patients usually display issues with their control of both reaching and holding, allows for within-individual comparisons of those two modes of control. Further, the magnitude of abnormalities is relatively large, making it easier to measure, compare and investigate effects. And, importantly, these two modes of control can be differentially affected after stroke (also pointed out by Reviewer 2, point 4 in Comments to the Authors). Finally, this kind of work – examining interactions between positive signs of stroke (such as abnormal posture or synergy) vs. negative signs (such as loss of motor control) – needs to be done in humans, as positive signs are relatively absent even in primates (Tower, 1940).

      We have changed our abstract (changes shown below in red), and our intro (expanding the second paragraph, lines 75-76), to lay out our motivation more clearly.

      From the abstract:

      “The paretic arm after stroke exhibits different abnormalities during rest vs. movement, providing an opportunity to ask whether control of these behaviors is independently affected in stroke. “

      On the other hand, the relation between force bias and the well-recognized flexor synergy seems rather self-evident, and I don't see that these results add much to that story.

      Response 1.2. While it seems natural that these biases would be the resting expression of abnormal flexor synergies (given their directionality towards the body, as shown in Figures 2-3, and the other similarities we demonstrate in Figure 8), we do not believe it is self-evident. These biases are measured at rest, with the patient passively moved and held still, whereas abnormal synergies emerge when the patient actively tries to move. The lack of relationship we find between these resting force biases and active movement underlines that the relation between force bias and flexor synergy should not be taken as self-evident, making it worthwhile to examine it (as we motivate in lines 589-596 and show in Figure 8).

      The paradox here is that, in spite of a relationship between force bias and flexor synergy (itself manifesting during attempted movement), there seems to be no relationship between force bias and direct measures of active movement (Figures 5,6). This is the paradox that inspired our conceptual model (Figure 9) and inspires to further investigate the factors under which these two systems are intermingled or kept separate. We thus find it to be a helpful element in the story.

      I am also struck by what seems to be a contradiction between the conclusions of the current and former studies: "These findings in stroke suggest that moving and holding still are functionally separable modes of control" and "the commands that hold the arm and finger at a target location depend on the mathematical integration of the commands that moved the limb to that location." The former study is mentioned here only in passing, in a single phrase in the discussion, with no consideration of the relation between the two studies. This is odd and should be addressed. 

      Response 1.3. While these two sets of findings are not contradictory, we understand how they can appear as such without providing context. We now discuss the relationship between our present study and the previous one more directly (lines 66-70 and 663-669 of the revised manuscript).

      The previous study examined how the control of movement informs the control of holding after the movement was over; the current study examines whether abnormalities in holding measured at rest with the movement leading to the rest position being passive. There are thus two important distinctions:

      First, directionality of potential effects: here we examine the effect of (abnormalities in) holding control upon movement, but the 2020 study (Albert et al., 2020) examines the effects of movement upon holding control. Stroke patient data in the 2020 study showed that, under CST damage, while the reach controller is disrupted, the hold controller can continue to integrate the malformed reach commands faithfully. In line with this, we proposed a model where the postural controller system sits downstream of the moving controller (Figure 7G in the 2020 paper). We thus did not claim, in 2020, that integration of movement commands is the only way to do determine posture control, as we stated explicitly back then, e.g. (emphasis ours):

      “Equations (1) and (2) describe how the integration of move activity may relate to changes in hold commands, but does not specify the hold command at the target.”

      In short, finding no effect of holding abnormalities upon movement (present finding) does not mean there is no potential effect of movement upon holding (2020 finding). This is something we had alluded to in the Discussion but not clarified, which we do now (see edits at the end of our response to this point).

      Second, active vs. passive movement: here, we measure holding control at rest (Experiment 1). The 2020 study shows that endpoint forces reflect the integration of learned dynamics exerted during active movement that led to the endpoint position. However, in Experiment 1, there is no active reaching to integrate, as the robot passively moves the arm to the held position. Thus, resting postural forces measured in Experiment 1 could not reflect the integration of reach commands that led to each rest position.  

      Thus, the two sets of findings are not contradictory. Taking our current and 2020 findings together suggests that active holding control would comprise would reflect both the integration of movement control that led to assuming the held position, plus the force biases measured at rest.

      Hence our decision to describe these two systems as functionally separable: while these systems can interact, the effects of post-stroke malfunctions in each can be independent depending on the function and conditions at hand. This does not make this a limited finding: being able to dissociate post-stroke impairment based on each of these two modes of control may inform rehabilitation, and also importantly, understanding the conditions in which these two modes of control become separable can substantially advance our understanding of both how different stroke signs interact with each other and how motor control is assembled in the healthy motor system. Figure 9 illustrates our conceptual model behind this and may serve as a blueprint to further dissect these circuits in the future.

      We discuss these issues briefly in lines 663-669 in our Discussion section, reproduced below for convenience:

      “It should be noted, however, that having distinct neural circuits for reaching and holding does not rule out interactions between them. For example, we recently demonstrated how arm holding control reflects the integration of motor commands driving the preceding active movement that led to the hold position, in both healthy participants and patients with hemiparesis (Albert et al., 2020). However, in that paper, we did not claim that this integration is the only source of holding control. Indeed, in Experiment 1 of the current study, we used passive movement to bring the arm to each probed position, which means that the postural biases could not be the result of integration of motor commands.” 

      And, we have adjusted our Introduction to provide pertinent context regarding our 2020 work (first paragraph, lines 66-70 of the updated manuscript).

      A minor wording concern I had is that the term "holding still" is frequently hard to parse. A couple of examples: "These findings in stroke suggest that moving and holding still are functionally separable modes of control." This example is easily read, "moving and holding [continue to be] functionally separable". Another: "...active reaching and holding still in the same workspace, " could be "...active reaching and holding [are] still in the same workspace." Simply "holding", "posture" or "posture maintenance" would all be better options.

      Response 1.4. Thank you for your suggestion. Following your comment, we have abbreviated this term to simply “holding”, both on the title and throughout the text.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary: 

      Here the authors address the idea that postural and movement control are differentially impacted with stroke. Specifically, they examined whether resting postural forces influenced several metrics of sensorimotor control (e.g., initial reach angle, maximum lateral hand deviation following a perturbation, etc.) during movement or posture. The authors found that resting postural forces influenced control only following the posture perturbation for the paretic arm of stroke patients, but not during movement. They also found that resting postural forces were greater when the arm was unsupported, which correlated with abnormal synergies (as assessed by the Fugl-Meyer). The authors suggest that these findings can be explained by the idea that the neural circuitry associated with posture is relatively more impacted by stroke than the neural circuitry associated with movement. They also propose a conceptual model that differentially weights the reticulospinal tract (RST) and corticospinal tract (CST) to explain greater relative impairments with posture control relative to movement control, due to abnormal synergies, in those with stroke.

      Strengths: 

      The strength of the paper is that they clearly demonstrate with the posture task (i.e., active holding against a load) that the resting postural forces influence subsequent control (i.e., the path to stabilize, time to stabilize, max. deviation) following a sudden perturbation (i.e., suddenly removal of the load). Further, they can explain their findings with a conceptual model, which is depicted in Figure 9. 

      Weaknesses: 

      Current weaknesses and potential concerns relate to i) not displaying or reporting the results of healthy controls and non-paretic arm in Experiment 2 and ii) large differences in force perturbation waveforms between movement (sudden onset) and posture (sudden release), which could potentially influence the results and or interpretation. 

      Response 2.0. Thank you for your assessment, and for pointing out ways to improve our paper. We address the weakness and potential concerns in detail below.

      Larger concerns

      (1) Additional analyses to further support the interpretation. In Experiment 1 the authors present the results for the paretic arm, non-paretic arm, and controls. However, in Experiment 2 for several key analyses, they only report summary statistics for the paretic arm (Figure 5D-I; Figure 6D-E; Figure 7F). It is understood that the controls have much smaller resting postural force biases, but they are still present (Figure 3B). It would strengthen the position of the paper to show that controls and the non-paretic arm are not influenced by resting postural force biases during movement and particularly during posture, while acknowledging the caveat that the resting positional forces are smaller in these groups. It is recommended that the authors report and display the results shown in Figure 5D-I; Figure 6D-E; Figure 7F for the controls and non-paretic arm. If these results are all null, the authors could alternatively place these results in an additional supplementary. 

      Response 2.1a. Thank you for your recommendations. We agree both on the value of these analyses and the caveat associated with them: these resting postural force biases are substantially smaller for the non-paretic and control data (for example, the magnitude of resting biases in the supported condition is 2.8±0.4N for the paretic data, but only 1.8±0.4N and 1.3±0.2N for the non-paretic and control data, respectively; the difference is even greater in the unsupported condition, though this is not the one being compared to Experiment 2).

      We now conduct a comprehensive series of supplementary analyses, including the examination of non-paretic and control data for all three components of Experiment 2 (unperturbed reaches; pulse perturbations; and active holding control). These are mentioned in the Results (lines 422-424, 512513, and 574-574 of the revised manuscript) and illustrated in the supplementary materials: Supplementary Figures S5-1, S6-1, and S7-1 contain the main analyses (comparisons of instances with the most extreme resting biases for each individual) for the unperturbed reach analysis, pulse perturbation analysis, and active holding control analysis, respectively.

      We find that non-paretic and control data do not display effects of resting biases upon unperturbed reaching control (Figure S5-1) or control against a pulse perturbation early during movement (Figure S6-1) – as is the case with the paretic data. Non-paretic and control data do not display evidence of influence of their resting force biases upon active holding control either (Figure S7-1), unlike the paretic data. For the non-paretic data, however, these influences are nominally towards the same direction as in the paretic data. Given that resting biases are substantially weaker for the non-paretic case, it is possible a similar relationship exists but requires increased statistical power to discern. Moreover, it is possible that the effect of resting biases is non-linear, with small biases effectively kept under check so that their impact upon active holding control is even less than a linearly scaled version of the impact of the stronger, paretic-side biases. This can be the subject of future work.

      Please also note that, following your recommendation (Recommendations to the Authors, point 2.1), we have conducted secondary analyses which estimate sensitivity to resting bias using all datapoints, validating our main analyses; these analyses were also performed for control and non-paretic data, with similar results (Response 2.A.1).

      Further, the results could be further boosted by reporting/displaying additional analyses. In Figure 6D the authors performed a correlation analysis. Can they also display the same analysis for initial deviation and endpoint deviation for the data shown in Figure 5D-F & 5G-I, as well for 7F for the path to stabilization, time to stabilization, and max deviation? This will also create consistency in the analyses performed for each dependent variable across the paper.

      Response 2.1b. Here, we set to test whether resting biases affect movement. It is best to do this using a within-individual comparison design, rather than using across-individual correlations: while correlation analyses can in general be informative, they obscure within-individual effects which are the main comparisons of interest in our study. Consider a participant with strong resting bias towards one direction, tested on opposing perturbations; averaging these responses for each individual would mostly cancel out any effects of resting biases. Even if we were to align responses to the direction of the perturbation before averaging, the power of correlation analyses may be diluted by inter-individual differences in other factors, such as overall stiffness.

      Thus, our analysis design was instead focused on examining the differential effects of resting posture biases within each individual’s data. We compared the most extreme opposing/aligned or clockwise/counter-clockwise instances within each individual, specifically to assess these differential effects. In our revised version, we have further reinforced these analyses to include all data rather than the most extreme instances (see response 2.A.1.a to the Reviewer’s recommendation to the authors) where we performed correlations of within-individual resting posture vs. the corresponding dependent variables and compared the resulting slopes. 

      The across-individual correlation analyses add little to that for the reasons we outlined above. At the same time, it is possible they can be helpful in e.g. illustrating across-individual variability. We thus now include across-individual correlation analyses for all dependent variables, but, given their limited value, only in the supplementary material. This also means that, for consistency, we moved the correlation analysis in Figure 6 to the corresponding supplementary figure as well (Figure S6-3).

      In addition, following the Reviewer’s comment about consistency in the analyses performed for each dependent variable across the paper, we added within-individual comparisons for settling time following the pulse perturbations (Figure 6D, right).

      (2) Inconsistency in perturbations that would differentially impact muscle and limb states during movement and posture. It is well known that differences in muscle state (activation / preloaded, muscle fiber length and velocity) and limb state (position and velocity) impact sensorimotor control (Pruszynski, J. A., & Scott, S. H. (2012). Experimental brain research, 218, 341-359.). Of course, it is appreciated that it is not possible to completely control all states when comparing movement and posture (i.e., muscle and limb velocity). However, using different perturbations differentially impacts muscle and limb states. Within this paper, the authors used very different force waveforms for movement perturbations (i.e., 12 N peak, bell-shaped, 0.7ms duration -> sudden force onset to push the limb; Figure 6A) and posture perturbations (i.e., 6N, 2s ramp up -> 3s hold -> sudden force release that resulted in limb movement; Figure 4) that would differentially impact muscle (and limb) states. Preloaded muscle (as in the posture perturbation) has a very different response compared to muscle that has little preload (as in the movement perturbations, where muscles that would resist a sudden lateral perturbation would likely be less activated since they are not contributing to the forward movement). Would the results hold if the same perturbation had been used for both posture and movement (e.g., 12 N pulse for both experiments)? It is recommended that the authors comment and discuss in the paper why they chose different perturbations and how that might impact the results. 

      Response 2.2a. We agree that it can be impossible to completely control all states when comparing movement and posture. We would also like to stress that these perturbations were not designed so that responses are directly compared to each other (though of course there is an indirect comparison in the sense that we show influence of biases in one type of perturbation but not the other). Instead, Experiment 2 tried to implement a probe optimized for each motor control modality (moving vs. holding). However, the Reviewer has a point that the potential impact of differences between the perturbations is important to discuss in the paper.

      The Reviewer points out two potentially interesting differences between the two perturbations. First, the magnitude (6N for the posture perturbation vs. 12N for the pulse perturbation); second, the presence of background load in the posture perturbation, in contrast to the pulse perturbation.

      For the movement perturbation, we used a 12-N, 70ms pulse. This perturbation and scaled versions have been tested before in both control and patient populations (Smith et al., 2000; Fine and Thoroughman, 2006). For the holding perturbation, we used a background load to ensure that active holding control is engaged, and the duration of the probe (holding for about 5s) made using a stronger perturbation impractical –maintaining a background load at, say, 12N for that long could lead to increased fatigue.

      The question raised by the Reviewer, whether the findings would be the same if the same, 12-N pulse were used to probe both moving and holding control, is interesting to investigate. We would expect the same qualitative findings (i.e. there would still be a connection between resting posture and active holding control when the latter were probed with a 12N pulse). Recent work provides more specific insight into what to expect. Our posture perturbation task is similar to the Unload Task in (Lowrey et al., 2019), whereby a background torque is released, whereas our pulse perturbation is more similar to their Load Task, whereby a torque is imposed against no background load (though it is a step perturbation rather than a pulse). Lowrey et al., 2019 find that their Unload task is harder than the Load task, with 2x the fraction of patient trials classified as failed (with failure defined as task performance being outside of the 95% confidence interval for controls), though there are still clear effects for the Load task. 

      This suggests that the potential effects of using a pulse-like perturbation to probe posture control would likely be weaker in magnitude, all other things being equal. At the same time, however, the Load and Unload tasks in Lowrey et al., 2019 were perturbations of the same magnitude; it is thus also likely that the reduction in effect would be mitigated, or reversed, by the fact that we would be using a 12N instead of a 6N perturbation.

      A relevant consequence of the Lowrey et al., 2019 findings is that the Unload paradigm is superior in its ability to detect impairment in static, posture perturbations, and thus provides a better signal to detect potential relationships with resting posture biases. This is not surprising, as a background load further engages the control of active holding, which what we were trying to probe in the first place.

      But then why not use the same paradigm (preloading and release) for movement? There are two main reasons. First, requiring a background load throughout the experiment is unfeasible due to fatigue. Second, for the holding perturbation, we wanted to ensure that the postural control system is meaningfully engaged when the perturbation hits, hence we picked the background load. Were we to impose the same during moving – i.e. impose a lateral background load on the movement - we could be engaging posture control on top of movement control. This preloading would reduce the degree to which the pulse probe isolates movement control, and lead to intrusion of the posture control system in the movement task by design. This relates to what the Reviewer proposes in the comment below: preloading may result in postural biases i.e. engage posture control; see below where we argue this interpretation is within the scope of our conceptual model rather a counter to it.

      We now explain the rationale behind our perturbation design in the Methods section (lines 211-220).

      Relatedly, an alternative interpretation of the results is that preloading muscle for stroke patients, whether by supporting the weight of one's arm (experiment 1) or statically resisting a load prior to force release (experiment 2), leads to a greater postural force bias that can subsequently influence control. It is recommended that the authors comment on this. 

      Response 2.2b. We find this interpretation valid, but we do not see how it meaningfully differs from the framework we propose. We already state that the RST may be tailored for both posture/holding control and the production of large forces (which would include muscle preloading):

      “Thus, the accumulated evidence suggests that the RST could control posture and large force production in the upper limb.“ (lines 698-699 in the current version)

      “the RST, in contrast, is weighted more towards slower postural control and generation of large isometric forces” (lines 724-726 in the current version)

      And, we discuss other conditions where the RST is involved in large force production, such as power grip, and how these interact with the role of the RST in posture/holding control (lines 758-768 in the current version).

      To better explain our model, we now provide the two examples mentioned by the reviewer along with our description of the proposed role for the RST (lines 726-727):

      “…the RST, in contrast, is weighted more towards slower postural control and generation of large isometric forces (such as vertical forces for arm support, or horizontal forces for holding the arm still against a background load like in our posture/release perturbation trials).”

      We note, however, that we find resting posture abnormalities even in the presence of arm support, suggesting the involvement of the RST in holding control even when the forces involved (and the need to preload the muscle) are small.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review): 

      The authors attempt to dissociate differences in resting vs active vs perturbed movement biases in people with motor deficits resulting from stroke. The analysis of movement utilizes techniques that are similar to previous motor control in both humans and non-human primates, to assess impairments related to sensorimotor injuries. In this regard, the authors provide additional support to the extensive literature describing movement abnormalities in patients with hemiparesis both at rest and during active movement. The authors describe their intention to separate out the contribution of holding still at a position vs active movement as a demonstration that these two aspects of motor control are controlled by two separate control regimes.

      Strengths: 

      (1) The authors utilize a device that is the same or similar to devices previously used to investigate motor control of movement in normal and impaired conditions in humans and non-human primates. This allows comparisons to existing motor control studies. 

      (2) Experiment 1 demonstrates resting flexion biases both in supported and unsupported forelimb conditions. These biases show a correlated relationship with FM-UE scores, suggesting that the degree of motor impairment and the degree of resting bias are related.

      (3) The stroke patient participant population had a wide range of both levels of impairment and time since stroke, including both sub-acute and chronic cases allowing the results to be compared across impairment levels.

      The authors describe several results from their study: 1. Postural biases were systematically toward the body (flexion) and increased with distance from the body (when the arm was more extended) and were stronger when the arm was unsupported. 2. These postural biases were correlated with FM-UE score. 3. They found no evidence of postural biases impacting movement, even when that movement was perturbed. 4. When holding a position at the end of a movement, if the position was perturbed opposite of the direction of bias, movement back to the target was improved compared to the perturbation in the direction of bias. Taken together, the authors suggest that there are at least two separate motor controls for tasks at rest versus with motion. Further, the authors propose that these results indicate that there is an imbalance between cortical control of movement (through the corticospinal tracts) and postural control (through the reticulospinal tract).

      Response 3.1. Thank you for pointing out some of the strengths of our work and summarizing our findings. A minor clarification we would like to make, related to (3), is that, while our study did enroll two patients towards the end of the subacute stage (2-3 months), the rest of the population were at the chronic stage, at one year and beyond. We thus find it very unlikely that time after stroke was the primary driver of differences in impairment in the population we studied.

      There are several weaknesses related to the interpretation of the results:

      In Experiment 1, the participants are instructed to keep their limbs in a passive position after being moved. The authors show that, in the impaired limb, these resting biases are significantly higher when the limb is unsupported and increase when the arm is moved to a more extended position.

      When supported by the air sled, the arm is in a purely passive position, not requiring the same antigravity response so will have less RST but also less CST involvement. While the unsupported task invokes more involvement of the reticulospinal tract (RST), it likely also has significantly higher CST involvement due to the increased difficulty and novelty of the task.

      If there were an imbalance in CST regulating RST as proposed by the authors, the bias should be higher in the supported condition as there should be relatively less CST activation/involvement/ modulation leading to less moderating input onto the RST and introducing postural biases. In the unsupported condition, there is likely more CST involvement, potentially leading to an increased modulatory effect on RST. If the proportion of CST involvement significantly outweighs the RST activation in the unsupported task, then it isn't obvious that there is a clear differentiation of motor control. As the degree of resting force bias and FM-UE score are correlated, an argument could be made that they are both measuring the impairment of the CST unrelated to any RST output. If it is purely the balance of CST integrity compared to RST, then the degree of bias should have been the same in both conditions. In this idea of controller vs modulator, it is unclear when this switch occurs or how to weigh individual contributions of CST vs. extrapyramidal tracts. Further, it isn't clear why less modulation on the RST would lead only to abnormal flexion.

      Response 3.2. Our model posits two mechanisms by which CST impairment would lead to increased RST involvement. The first – which is the one discussed by the Reviewer here - is a direct one, whereby weaker modulation of the RST by the CST leads to increased RST involvement. The second is an indirect one, whereby the incapacity of CST to drive sufficient motor output to deal with tasks eventually leads to increased RST drive.

      The reviewer suggests it is likely that the unsupported task demands increased activation through both the CST and the RST. If that were the case, however, it would exaggerate the effects of CST/RST imbalance after stroke compared to healthy motor control: if task conditions (lack of support) required higher CST involvement, then CST damage would have an even larger effect. In turn, this would lead to even higher RST involvement and further diminishing the ability of CST to moderate RST. Thus, RST-driven biases would be higher in the unsupported condition.

      And, given that the CST itself is damaged and has to deal with an even-increased RST activation, we would not expect that the proportion of CST involvement would outweigh RST activation, but the opposite. In fact, a series of relatively recent findings suggest just this. For example,

      • Zaaimi et al., 2012  showed that unilateral CST lesions in monkeys lead to significant increases in the excitability of the contralesional RST (Zaaimi et al., 2012). Interestingly, this effect was present in flexors but not extensors, potentially explaining why less modulation and/or overactivation of the RST would primarily lead to abnormal flexion. 

      • McPherson et al. (further discussed in point 2.A.23, by Reviewer 2 – Recommendations to the Authors) showed that, after stroke, contralesional activity (which would include the ipsilateral RST) increases relative to ipsilesional activity (which would include the contralateral CST)

      (McPherson et al., 2018). The same study also provides evidence that FM-UE may primarily reflect RST-driven impairment. The ipsilateral(RST)/contralateral(CST) balance, expressed as a laterality index, correlated with FM-UE, with lower FM-UE for indices indicating higher RST involvement. (Interestingly, the slope of this relationship was steeper when the laterality of brain activation patterns was examined under tasks with less arm support, mirroring the steeper FM-UE vs resting bias slope when arm support is absent, as shown in our Figure 8).

      • Wilkins et al., 2020 (Wilkins et al., 2020) found that providing less support (i.e. requiring increased shoulder abduction) increases ipsilateral activation (representing RST) relative to contralateral activation (representing CST).

      This resting bias could be explained by an imbalance in the activation of flexors vs extensors which follows the results that this bias is larger as the arm is extended further, and/or in a disconnect in sensory integration that is overcome during active movement. Neither would necessitate separate motor control for holding vs active movement. 

      Response 3.3. We do not think that either of these points necessarily argue against our model. First, the resting biases we observe are clearly pointed towards increased flexion, and can thus be seen as the outcome of an imbalance in the activation of flexors vs. extensors at rest. This imbalance between flexors/extensors can also be explained by the CST/RST imbalance posited by our conceptual model: in their study of CST lesions in the monkey, Zaaimi et al., 2012 found increased RST activation for flexors but not extensors, suggesting that RST over-involvement may specifically lead to flexor abnormalities (Zaaimi et al., 2012). Second, overcoming a disconnect in sensory integration may be one way the motor system switches between separate controllers; how this switch happens is not examined by our conceptual model.

      In Experiment 2, the participants are actively moving to and holding at targets for all trials while being supported by the air sled. Even with the support, the paretic participants all showed start- and endpoint force biases around the movement despite not showing systematic deviations in force direction during active movement start or stop. There could be several factors that limit systematic deviations in force direction. The most obvious is that the measured biases are significantly higher when the limb is unsupported and by testing with a supported limb the authors are artificially limiting any effect of the bias.

      Response 3.4. We do expect, in line with what the reviewer suggests, that any potential effects would be stronger in the unsupported condition. The decision to test active motor control with arm support was done as running the same Experiment 2 would pose challenges, particularly with our most impaired patients, given the duration of Experiment 2 (~2 hours, about 1 hour with each arm) and the expected fatigue that would ensue.

      However, a key characteristic of our comparisons is that we are comparing Experiment 2 active control data under arm support, against Experiment 1 resting bias data also under arm support. While Experiment 1 measured biases without arm support as well, these are not used for this comparison. And, while resting biases are weaker with arm support, they are still clear and significant; yet they do not lead to detectable changes in active movement.

      At the same time, we do not rule out that, if we were to repeat Experiment 2 without arm support, we could find some systematic deviation in the direction of resting bias in movement control. Our conceptual model, in fact, suggests that this may be the case, as we described in lines 618-620 of our original manuscript. The idea here is that, when arm support is not provided, the increased strength requirements lead to increased drive through the RST, to the point that posture control (and its abnormalities) spills into movement control (Figure 9). We now better clarify this position in our Discussion (lines 744-750):

      “The interesting implication of this conceptual model is that synergies are in fact postural abnormalities that spill over into active movement when the CST can no longer modulate the increased RST activation that occurs when weight support is removed (i.e. resting biases may influence active reaching in absence of weight support). Supporting this idea, a study found increased ipsilateral activity (which primarily represents activation via the descending ipsilateral RST (Zaaimi et al., 2012)) when the paretic arm had reduced support compared to full support (McPherson et al., 2018).”

      It is also possible that significant adaptation or plasticity with the CST or rubrospinal tracts could give rise to motor output that already accounts for any intrinsic resting bias.  

      Response 3.5. This kind of adaptation – regardless of the tracts potentially involved – is an issue we examined in our experiment. As we talk about in our Results (lines 458-460 in the updated manuscript), with most of our patient population in the chronic stage, it could be likely that their motor system adapted to those biases to the point that movement planning took them into account, thereby limiting their effect. This motivated us to examine responses to unpredictable perturbations during movement (Figure 6) where we still find lack of an obvious effect of resting biases upon reaching control. We thus believe that our findings are not explained by this kind of adaptation, though we agree it would be of great interest for future work to compare resting biases and reaching control in acute vs. chronic stroke populations to examine the degree to which stroke patients adapt to these biases as they recover.

      In any case, the results from the reaching phase of Experiment 2 do not definitively show that directional biases are not present during active reaching, just that the authors were unable to detect them with their design. The authors do acknowledge the limitations in this design (a 2D constrained task) in explaining motor impairment in 3D unconstrained tasks. 

      Response 3.6. It is, of course, an inherent limitation of a negative finding is that it cannot be proven. What we show here is that, there is no hint of intrusion of resting posture abnormalities upon active movement in spite of these resting posture abnormalities being substantial and clearly demonstrated even under arm support. To allow for the maximum bandwidth to detect any such effects, we specifically chose to compare the most extreme instances (resting bias-wise) for each individual, and yet we did not find any relationship between biases and active reaching.

      This suggests that, even if these biases could be in some form present during active movement, their effect would be minimal and thus limited in meaningfully explaining post-stroke impairment in active movement under arm support.

      Note that, as we already discuss, our conceptual model (Figure 9) suggests that the degree to which directional biases would be present in active reaching may be influenced by arm support (or the specific movements examined – hence our limitation in not examining 3D movement). Thus we do not claim that this independence is absolute. Examples include the last line of the passage quoted right above, and the summary statement of our Discussion quoted below (lines 639-641):

      “…which raises the possibility that the observed dissociation of movement and posture control for planar weight-supported movements may break down for unsupported 3D arm movements.”

      Finally, we now more explicitly acknowledge that abnormal resting biases may influence active movement in the absence of arm support (see Response 3.4).

      It would have been useful, in Experiment 2, to use FM-UE scores (and time from injury) as a factor to determine the relationship between movement and rest biases. Using a GLMM would have allowed a similar comparison to Experiment 1 of how impairment level is related to static perturbation responses. While not a surrogate for imaging tractography data showing a degree of CST involvement in stroke, FM-UE may serve as an appropriate proxy so that this perturbation at hold responses may be put into context relative to impairment.

      Response 3.7. Here the Reviewer suggests we use FM-UE scores as a proxy for CST integrity. We do not think this analysis would be particularly helpful in our case for a number of reasons:

      First, while FM-UE is a general measure of post-stroke impairment, it was designed to track - among other things - the emergence and resolution of abnormal synergies, a sign assumed to result from abnormally high RST outflow (McPherson et al., 2018; McPherson and Dewald, 2022). In line with this, the FM-UE scales with EMG-based measures of synergy abnormality (Bourbonnais et al., 1989). Impairments in dexterity, a sign associated with damage to the CST (Lawrence and Kuypers, 1968; Porter and Lemon, 1995; Duque et al., 2003), dissociate with synergy abnormalities when compared under arm support as we do here (Levin, 1996; Hadjiosif et al., 2022). This means that FM-UE would be a stronger proxy for RST activity and thus not a direct proxy for CST integrity particularly when one wants to dissociate RST-specific vs. CST-specific abnormalities. In fact, as we discuss in Response 3.2 above, there is a number of studies supporting this idea: for example, Zaaimi et al., 2012 show that relative RST activation – the balance between ipsilateral excitability, primarily reflecting RST, and contralateral excitability, primarily reflecting the CST, scales with FM-UE (Zaaimi et al., 2012).

      Second, this kind of analysis would obscure within-individual effects, since FM-UE scores are, of course, assigned to each individual. This is the same issue as doing across-individual correlation analyses in general (see response 2.1b).Strong resting force bias would have opposite effects on opposing perturbations, averaging across subjects would occlude these effects.

      Third, while FM-UE is a good measure of synergy abnormality, weakness alone could also give an abnormal FM-UE (Avni et al., 2024).

      The Reviewer also suggests we use time from injury for this analysis. Time from injury can indeed potentially be an important factor. However, this analysis would not be appropriate for our dataset, since the effective variation in recovery stage within our population is limited: our sample is essentially chronic (only two patients were examined within the subacute stage – at 2 and 3 months after stroke - with everybody else examined more than a year after stroke) with the “positive” elements of their phenotype (and FM-UE itself) essentially plateaued (Twitchell, 1951; Cortes et al., 2017). We thus would not expect to see any meaningful effects of time from injury within our population. It would be an excellent question for future work to investigate both resting biases and their relationship to reaching in acute/subacute patients, and examine whether the trajectory of resting biases (both emergence and abatement due to recovery) follows the one for abnormal synergies.

      It is not clear that even in the static perturbation trials that the hold (and subsequent move from perturbation) is being driven by reticulospinal projections. Given a task where ~20% of the trials are going to be perturbed, there is likely a significant amount of anticipatory or preparatory signaling from the CST. How does this balance with any proposed contribution that the RST may have with increased grip?

      Response 3.8. We included our response to this as part of Response 3.2. In brief, while we cannot rule out that these tasks may recruit increased CST signaling, this would tend to increase, rather than reduce, the effects of post-stroke impairment: the requirement for increased signaling from a CST that is damaged would magnify the effects of this damage, in turn leading to increased recruitment of other tracts, such as the RST.

      In general, the weakness of the interpretation of the results with respect to the CST/RST framework is that it is necessary to ascribe relative contributions of different tracts to different phases of movement and hold using limited or indirect measures. Barring any quantification of this data during these tasks, different investigators are likely to assess these contributions in different ways and proportions limiting the framework's utility.

      Response 3.9. We believe that our Reponses 3.2-3.6 put our findings in fair perspective, and the edits undertaken based on the Reviewer’s comments have clarified our position as to how the dissociation between holding and moving control may break down. We do agree, however, that our framework would be strengthened by the use of direct measures of CST/RST connectivity in future research. We present our conceptual model as a comprehensive explanation of our findings and how they blend with current hypotheses regarding the role of these two tracts in motor control after stroke.  As such, it provides a blueprint towards future research that more directly measures or modulates CST and RST involvement, using tools such as tractography or non-invasive brain stimulation.

      Recommendations for the authors:   

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      L226 “…of this issue, we repeated the analysis of Figure 7F (a) by excluding these four patients…”.  Should this be three, based on the previous sentence? 

      Response 1.A.1. Thank you for pointing this typo, which is now corrected. The analysis in question (Figure S1 in the original submission, now re-numbered as Figure S7-4), excluded the three patients mentioned in the previous sentence.

      L254 “…the hand was held in a more distal position. The postural force biases were strongest when…”  Could this be "extended" rather than distal? See my later comment about the inadequate description of targets.

      Response 1.A.2. The reviewer is correct that, the arm will tend to be more extended in the distal targets. However, since these positions were defined in extrinsic coordinates, we think the terms distal/proximal are also appropriate. In either case, we now clarify these definitions in the text (see Response 1.A.3 below).

      L263 “…contained both distal and proximal targets, and, importantly, they were also the movement…”.  Distal/proximal targets were never described as part of the task. 

      Response 1.A.3. We improved our description by (i) changing the wording above to “represented positions both distal and proximal to the body,”, (ii) doing the same in our Methods (line 175) and (iii) indicating distal/proximal targets in Figure 3A (bottom right of panel A).

      L378 “…the pulse perturbation. We hypothesized that, should resting postural forces play a role, they…”  L379 “…would tend to reduce the effect of the pulse if they were in the opposite direction, and…”  Not really obvious why. A reduction in the displacement caused by a force pulse might be caused by different stiffness or viscosity, but not by a linear, time-invariant force bias. This situation is different from that of "moving the arm through a high-postural bias area vs. a low-postural bias area" where it would encounter time- (actually spatially) varying forces and varying amounts of displacement. Clarify the logic if this is a critical point.

      Response 1.A.4. We thank the Reviewer for highlighting this point of potential confusion. We now clarify that these postural bias forces are neuromuscular in origin (Kanade-Mehta et al., 2023), and likely result from an expression of abnormal synergy, at least under static conditions. In this case, we hypothesized that force pulses acting against the gradient of the postural bias field would act to stretch the already active muscles, which would lead to a further increase in postural resistance due to inherent length-tension properties of active muscle. By contrast, force pulses acting along the gradient of the postural bias field would act to shorten the same active muscles, which would lead to a reduction in postural resistance. The data did not support this in the case of force pulses imposed during movement. We note, however, that similar effects would affect responses to static perturbations as well, wherein we do find an effect of resting biases. We now better explain this reasoning (lines 479482).

      L466 “resting postural force). In short, our perturbations revealed that resting flexor biases switched  467 on after movement was over, providing evidence for separate control between moving” and 

      L468 “holding still.”

      I do not think the authors have presented clear evidence that forces, "switch on", implying the switch to a different controller which they posit. This could as easily be a nonlinear or time-varying property of a single controller (admittedly, the latter possibility overlaps broadly with their idea of distinct, interacting controllers). An example that the authors are certainly aware of is that of muscle "thixotropy" a purely peripheral mechanism due to the dynamics of crossbridge cycling that causes resting muscle to be stiffer than moving muscle, changing with a time constant of ~1-2 seconds. Neither this particular example nor changing levels of contraction (more likely during the unpredictable force perturbations) would be in the direction to explain the main observation here -- a point perhaps worth making, together with the stretch reflex comments. 

      Response 1.A.5. Thank you for this perspective. Indeed, it might be that “switching on” represents a shift along a nonlinear property of the same controller: in the extreme, if this nonlinearity is a step (on/off) function, this single controller would be functionally identical to two separate controllers. We thus cannot tell if these controllers are distinct in the strict sense. What we argue here is that, no matter the underlying controller architecture - two distinct controllers or two distinct modes of the same controller - is that the control of reaching vs. holding can be functionally separable even after stroke. In line with this idea, we used a more nuanced phrasing (e.g. “separable functional modes for moving vs. holding”) throughout our manuscript, and we have now edited out a mention of “separate controllers” to be consistent with this.

      Moreover, thank you for pointing out the example of thixotropy, showing how peripheral mechanisms could interact with central control. As you point out, this effect would not explain the main observation here: in fact, if stiffness were substantially higher during rest or holding (instead of moving) that would reduce the impact of the static perturbation, making it harder to detect any effects of resting biases compared to the moving perturbation case.

      L480 “…during movement (Sukal et al., 2007). Yet, Experiment 2 found no relationship between resting…” L481”… postural force biases and active movement control. To further investigate this apparent…”  The methods of the two studies seem fairly similar, but this question warrants a more careful comparison. How did the size of the two workspaces compare? What about the magnitude of the exerted forces? The movement condition in this study was done with the limb entirely supported. Under that condition, the Sukal study also found fairly small effects of the range of motion.

      Response 1.A.6. Sukal et al., 2007 did not directly measure exerted forces, but instead compared the active range of motion under different loading conditions. They used the extent of reach area to quantify the effect of abnormal synergies, with a more extended active range of motion signifying reduced effect of abnormal synergies. As the Reviewer points out, Sukal et al. found fairly small effects of synergies upon the range of motion when arm support was provided (the reach area for the paretic side was found to be about 85% of the nonparetic side under full arm support, though they were statistically significantly different, Figure 5 of their paper). They found increasing effect of synergies as arm support was reduced: on average, the reach area when participants had to fully support the arm was less than 50% the reach area when full arm support was given (comparing the 0% vs. 100% active support conditions [i.e. 100% vs. 0% external support] in their Figure 5). As we discuss in our paper, this effect of arm support upon synergy mirrors the one we found for resting postures.

      To compare our workspace with the one in Sukal et al., we overlaid our workspace (the array of positions for which the posture biases were measured, for a typical participant from Experiment 1) on the one they used as shown in their Figure 4. Note that their figure only shows an example participant, and thus our ability to compare is limited by the fact that each participant can vary widely in terms of their impairment, and assumptions had to be made to prepare this overlay (e.g. that (0,0) represents the position of the right acromion point). 

      For this example, and our assumptions, our workspace was smaller, with the main points of interest (red dots, the movement start/end points used for Experiment 2) within the Sukal et al. workspace. That our workspace is smaller is not surprising, given that the area in Sukal et al. represents the limit of what can be reached, and thus motor control *has* to be examined in a subset of that area.

      Author response image 1.

      Comparing the two study methodologies, however, suggests an advantage of measuring resting biases in terms of sensitivity and granularity: first, resting biases can be clearly detected even under arm support (something we point out in our Discussion, lines 715-717); second, they can measure abnormalities at any point in the workspace, rather than a binary within/without the reach area. The resting bias approach may thus be a more potent tool to probe the shared bias/synergy mechanisms we propose here.

      Figure 2 

      Needs color code. 

      The red dots could be bigger.

      Response 1.A.7. We have increased the size of the red dots and added a color code to explain the levels illustrated by the contours. We also expanded our caption to better explain this illustration.

      Figure 3

      Labeling is confusing. Drop the colored words (from both A and B), and stick to the color legend. Consider using open and filled symbols (and bars) to represent arm support or lack thereof. The different colored ovals are very hard to distinguish.

      Response 1.A.8. We find these recommendations improve the readability of Figure 3 and we have thus adopted them - see updated Figure 3.

      Figure 4

      Not terribly necessary.  

      Response 1.A.9. While this figure is indeed redundant based our descriptions in the text, we kept it as we believe it can be useful in clarifying the different stages of movement we examine.

      Figure 5 

      Tiny blue and green arrows are impossible to distinguish. 

      Although the general idea is clear, E and H are not terribly intuitive.  Add distance scale bars for D-I. 

      Response 1.A.10. For improved contrast, we now use red and blue (also in line with comment below regarding Figure 7), and switched to brighter colors in general. To make E and H more intuitive and easier to follow, we expanded the on-panel legend. Thank you for pointing out that distance scale bars are missing; we have now added them (panels EFHI).

      Figure 6 

      Panel E inset is too small. 

      Response 1.A.11. We have now moved the inset to the right and enlarged it.

      Figure 7 

      Green and blue colors are not good. 

      Response 1.A.12. For improved contrast, we now use red and blue.

      Figure 8 

      Delete or move to supplement? 

      Response 1.A.13. We respectfully disagree. While the relationships on these data are also captured by the ANOVA, we believe these scatter plots offer a better overview of the relationships between force biases and FM-UE across different conditions.

      Really minor

      L113 “…participants' lower arm was supported using a custom-made air-sled (Figure 1C). Above the  participant's…” 

      Response 1.A.14. We put the apostrophe after the s so to refer to participants in general (plural).

      L117 ”…subject-produced forces on the handle were recorder using a 6-axis force transducer.”  recorded 

      Response 1.A.14. Thank you for pointing out this error which we have now corrected.

      L136 “…2013), Experiment 1 assessed resting postural forces by passively moving participants to>…”  The experiment did not move the participant. 

      Response 1.A.15. We now fix this issue: “by having the robot passively move…”

      L248 “…experiment blocks: two with each arm, with or without arm weight support (provided by an air experimental…”

      Response 1.A.16. We have now corrected this.

      L364 “…responses to mid-movement perturbations. In 1/3 of randomly selected reaching movements…”  Obviously, you mean 1/3 of all movements: "One-third of the reaching movements were chosen randomly"  

      Response 1.A.17. We now clarify: “In 1/3 of reaching movements in Experiment 2, chosen randomly”. Also please note our response to Reviewer 2, point 10: we now report the exact number of trials for which each kind of perturbation was present.

      L609 “Damage to the CST after stroke reduces its moderating influence upon the RST (Figure 9,…”  "its" refers to the subject, "Damage", not "CST".

      Response 1.A.18. We have changed this to “Post-stroke damage to the CST reduces the moderating influence the CST has upon the RST”.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Throughout, the authors cleverly selected the most opposed and most aligned resting postural force biases to perform a within-subject analysis. However, this approach excludes a lot of data. The authors could perform an additional within-subject analysis. For each participant they could correlate lateral resting posture force bias to each dependent variable, utilizing all the trials of a participant. 

      Response 2.A.1a. Thank you for your appreciating our analysis design, and suggesting additional analyses. We focused our within-subject analysis design on the most extreme instances, as we believe that this approach would offer the best opportunity to detect any potential effects of resting biases. We reasoned that, since resting biases tend to be relatively small for most locations in the workspace, taking all biases into account would inject a disproportionate amount of noise in our analysis, which would in turn diminish our ability to detect any potential relationships. This could be because small biases lead to small effects but also small biases may themselves be more likely to reflect measurement noise in the first place. Note that our study talks about separability of active reaching from resting abnormalities based on lack of relationships between the two. While one cannot definitely prove a negative, it is also important to take the approach that maximizes the ability to detect any such relationship if there were one. We believe taking the most extreme instances fulfills that role.

      However, as the Reviewer points out, this approach also excludes a substantial amount of data. We agree that our findings could be further strengthened by exploring additional within-subject analyses that utilize all trials. Thus, following the reviewer’s suggestion, we estimated the sensitivity of each dependent variable to lateral resting posture force bias. Specifically, we estimated the slope of this relationship for each individual (separately for paretic and non-paretic data) using linear regression, and assessed whether the average slope is significant for each group (paretic data, non-paretic data, and control data).

      This secondary analysis replicated our main findings: lack of relationship between posture biases and active reaching control (both for unperturbed and perturbed movement), and a significant relationship between posture biases and active holding control. In addition, in line with main point 2.1 by the reviewer, we performed the same analyses for non-paretic and control data. While there are no definitive conclusions to be made for these cases (as was likely, given that the resting force biases are smaller, as also pointed out by the Reviewer in 2.1) these data are worthy of discussion, with potentially interesting insights (for example, there are hints that the connection between resting biases and active holding control is present in the non-paretic arm as well, and may be explored in future research).

      We have included these analyses in the supplementary materials, and we point to them in the main text. Specifically:

      First, in line with our main analyses in Figure 5, we find no effect (the average slope is insignificant) for start and endpoint biases upon the corresponding reaching angles. This is now mentioned in lines 425-434 of the Results, and illustrated in Figure S5-2. There was a lack of effect for the non-paretic and control data as well.

      Second, in line with our main analyses in Figure 6, we find no effect of start biases upon responses to the pulse (Figure S6-2, mentioned in lines 513-517 of the Results). As above, there was no effect of non-paretic or control data either.

      And, finally, in line with our main analysis in Figure 7, we find an effect of resting biases upon performance for the static perturbation (Figure S7-2, mentioned in lines 578-586 of the Results). Interestingly, there is a suggestion that resting biases may affect static perturbation responses in the non-paretic data as well based on the relationship between posture bias and maximum deviation, but not the other two metrics. Given the lack of consistency of resting bias effects for all three different dependent variables examined, however, our current data are thus unable to give a definite answer as to whether there is the connection between resting biases and active holding control is also present in the non-paretic side. Our hypothesis is that, since resting abnormalities and their effects are the pathological over-manifestations of mechanisms inherent in the motor system in general, then such a relationship would exist. Answering this question, however, would require an experiment design better tailored to detect relationships in the non-paretic arm, where resting biases are weaker.

      We thank the Reviewer for their suggestions and believe that these additional analyses provide a more complete picture of the data, and their consistency with our main results reinforces the message of the paper.

      Then, they can report the percentage of participants that display significant correlations separately for the paretic, nonparetic, and control arms. 

      Response 2.A.1b. We note that, even in cases where the average slope (across individuals) is significant, the individual slopes themselves are usually not significant, likely due to the large amount of noise for datapoints corresponding to weak resting biases. To further examine this, we performed additional analyses whereby we examined slopes by (a) pooling all participant data together (centered separately for each individual), and then (b) took a further step to normalize each participant’s data not only by centering but by also adjusting by each individual’s variability along each axis (i.e. assess the slope between z-scores of resting bias vs. z-scores of each dependent variable). These two analyses confirmed our finding that resting biases interacted with active motor control, with significant slopes between resting biases and outcome variables. (a) Pooling all data together: path to stabilization: p = 0.032; time to stabilization: p = 1.4x10-5; maximum deviation: p = 0.021. (b) Pooling and normalizing: path to stabilization: p = 0.0013; time to stabilization: p = 8.6x10-6; maximum deviation: p = 0.00056. The latter analysis showed even stronger connection between resting bias and active holding control, probably due to better accounting for differences in the range of resting biases across participants). For simplicity, however, we only provide the across-individual slope comparisons in the paper.

      (2) An important aspect of all the analyses is that they rely heavily on estimates of the resting postural force bias. How stable are these resting postural force biases at the individual level? The authors could assess this by reporting within-subject variance for both the magnitude and direction of the resting postural force bias.

      Response 2.A.2. Thank you for your suggestion. We now assess the individual-level variance in error across measurements for patients’ paretic data using an ANOVA: the variance that remains after all other factors (same probe location; same arm support condition; same participant) are taken into account. We found that individual level measurement variance explained a mere 9.0% of total variance for resting bias magnitude. (We note that the same figure was 20.2% for the non-paretic data, in line with the weaker average biases which would be more susceptible to noise). We now note this in the Methods, as part of the new subsection “Stability of resting posture bias measurements in Experiment 1” (lines 266-273).

      (3) Does resting postural force bias influence hand movement immediately following force release from the postural perturbation? This could be assessed before any volitional responses by examining the velocity of the hand during the first 50 ms following the postural perturbation.

      Response 2.A.3. The influence seems fairly rapid, within the first 100ms as shown to the right. Here we plot hand deviation in the direction of the perturbation for the most-opposed (red) vs. most-aligned (blue) instances to examine when these curves become different. The bottom plots show the difference between these two, whereas shading indicates SEM (note that these curves are referenced to the average deviation in the last 0.5 s before force release). The rightmost plots zoom in to make it easier to see how responses to the most opposed vs. most aligned instances diverge.

      To detect the earliest post-perturbation timepoint for which this effect was significant, we performed paired t-tests at each timestep, and found that the two responses were systematically statistically different 95ms after perturbation onset onwards. For reference, the same method detected a response at 25ms for the most aligned instances and 40ms for the most opposed instances.

      We have now added Supplementary Figure S7-4 with short commentary in the Supplementary Materials.

      (4) Abstract. lines 7-9. At a glance (and when reading the manuscript linearly) this sentence is unclear. If the paretic arm is compromised across rest and movement, how does that afford the opportunity to address the relationship between reaching, stopping, and stabilizing when all could be impacted? It might be useful to specify that these factors may impacted differently relative to one another with stroke, providing an opportunity to better understand the differences between movement and postural control. 

      Response 2.A.4. Thank you for pointing out this issue (also related to Reviewer 1’s point – Response 1.1). We have changed this to more clearly reflect our reasoning and highlight that the issue is that stroke can differentially impact reaching vs. holding, copied below:

      “The paretic arm after stroke exhibits different abnormalities during rest vs. movement, providing an opportunity to ask whether control of these behaviors is independently affected in stroke.”

      (5) Line 27. It is perhaps more appropriate to say conceptual model than simply 'model'.  

      Response 2.A.5. Thank you for your suggestion, which we have adopted throughout the manuscript.

      (6) Line 122-125. Figure 1A caption. The authors should specify that resting posture force biases occur when the limb or hand is physically constrained in a specific position. 

      Response 2.A.6. Thank you for pointing this out – we have clarified the caption:

      “If one were to physically constrain the hand in a position away from the resting posture, the torques involved in each component of the abnormal resting posture translate to a force on the hand (blue arrow);”

      (7) Line 147. Why was the order not randomized or counterbalanced? 

      Response 2.A.7. We prioritized paretic data, as the primary analyses and comparisons in our paper involved resting posture biases and active movement with the paretic arm. We note that our primary analyses, which rely on paretic-paretic comparisons, would not be affected by paretic vs. non-paretic ordering effects. However, ordering effects could potentially affect comparisons between paretic and non-paretic data. We now note the reasoning behind the absence of counterbalancing, and mention the potential limitation in interpreting paretic to non-paretic comparisons in lines 124-129 of the Methods.

      (8) Line 172. 12N is the peak force of the pulse?

      Response 2.A.8. The reviewer is correct; we have clarified our description (line 463 in the updated manuscript):

      “a 70 ms bell-shaped force pulse which was 12N at its peak”

      (9) Line 175. What is a clockwise pulse? Was the force vector rotating in direction over time so that it was always acting orthogonally to the movement, or did it always act leftwards or rightwards?

      Response 2.A.9. The force vector was not rotating in direction over time. Here, we used clockwise/counterclockwise to indicate rightwards/leftwards with respect to the ideal movement direction – the line from start position to target (which is what we understand the Reviewer means by “always act rightwards or leftwards”). We have clarified the text to indicate this (lines 193-195):

      …was applied by the robot lateral to the ideal movement direction (i.e. the direction formed between the center of the start position and the center of the target) after participants reached 2cm away from the starting position (Smith and Shadmehr, 2005; Fine and Thoroughman, 2006).

      (10) Lines 177-182. It might be useful to explicitly mention the frequency of each of the perturbations, just for ease of the reader. 

      Response 2.A.10. We have added this information to our Methods (lines 206-210):

      Thus, in summary, each 96-movement block consisted of 64 unperturbed movements and 32 movements perturbed with a force pulse (16 clockwise, and 16 counter-clockwise). For 20 out of the 96 movements in each block, the hold period was extended to test the hold perturbation (4 trials for each of the 5 target locations, each one of the 4 trials testing one perturbation direction as shown in Figure 7C).

      (11) Line 191. Lines 188-190. It would be useful to see a sample of several of these force traces over time (0-5s) that were used to make the average for a position. That would give insight into the stability of the forces of a participant for one of the postures. These traces could be shown in Figure 2.

      Response 2.A.11. Thank you for your suggestion. We have added these panels to Figure 1, (as Figure 2 was already large). Each panel illustrates the three measurements taken at similar positions (closest to midline, distal from the body) and the same condition (paretic arm, with arm support given) for one participant (same participants as in Figure 2). Solid lines indicate the force on the x-axis (positive values indicate forces towards the left), whereas dashed lines indicate the force on the y-axis (positive values indicate forces towards the body). The shaded area indicates the part averaged in order to estimate the resting bias, illustrating how resting biases were relatively stable by the 2s mark. Note that these examples include one trial (blue traces in the third panel) which was rejected following visual inspection as described in Materials and Methods – Data Exclusion Criteria (“trials where forces appeared unstable and/or there was movement during the robot hold period”). We find this helpful as this illustrates (and motivates) one component of our methodology. 

      (12) Line 196. Figure 1D (not 1E).  

      Response 2.A.12. Thank you for catching this error, which we have now corrected.

      (13) Line 215: The authors mentioned similar results. Were there any different results that impacted interpretation? Some evidence of this, similar to and in addition to Supplementary 1, would be helpful. 

      Response 2.A.13. We repeated our analyses without these exclusion criteria, with no impact to the interpretation. We now include versions of the main outcome panels from Figures 5, 6, and 7 in the supplementary materials calculated without this outlier exclusion (Figures S5-E, S6-E, and S7-E, respectively). 

      (14) Line 231: Perhaps better to explicitly state the furthest three positions are being across as the distal targets for the ANOVA. 

      Response 2.A.14. Thank you for your suggestion. We now explicitly clarify this in line 276:

      “distal targets [furthest three positions] vs. proximal targets [closest two positions]”

      (15) Figure 3B, lines 265. Clearly, these are different, but the authors should report statistics. 

      Response 2.A.15. We now report these numbers (lines 339-346 of the revised manuscript, which also include statistics related to bias direction as described in 2.A.17 below).

      (16) Figure 2 should have a heat map scale.  

      Response 2.A.16. We have now added this (also Response 1.A.7), including an explanation of what the heat map represents in the caption.

      (17) Figure 3C: It would be useful to quantify and plot the direction of the resting force bias vector. 

      Response 2.A.17. Thank you for your suggestion. We have expanded Figure 3 to include the average direction of the resting force bias vector (note the readjustment of colors following Reviewer 1’s comment: striped bars indicate No Support data, and full bars indicate Support data, with the colors being the same). The direction of the force bias vector, however, may not be very informative in cases where the magnitude is small (and the signal-to-noise ratio is small), whereas averaging the direction of the force bias vector across different positions for one participant may average out systematic variations in this direction across different locations. Nevertheless, the average direction appears generally towards the body (around -90°, or 6 o’clock) even in the non-paretic and control data (though the noise – as suggested by the size of the errorbars – is much higher in the latter cases, especially when the arm is supported). This is a (weak) suggestion that these resting biases may be present, though much subdued, in the nonparetic limb and healthy individuals; further work will be needed to elucidate this.

      (18) Line 428. It is not significantly longer compared to controls. Can the authors slightly revise this sentence?

      Response 2.A.18. We have revised this sentence (lines 529-532):

      Patients showed impaired capacity to resist and recover from this perturbation (the abrupt release of the imposed force). The time to stabilization for the paretic side (0.94±0.05s) was longer compared to the non-paretic side (0.79±0.03s, p = 0.024) and controls (0.78±0.06s, though this was statistically marginal, p = 0.061) as shown in Figure 7E, left.

      (19) Line 541. It is unclear how these data support the idea of three distinct controllers. Can the authors please clarify? 

      Response 2.A.19. Here, we compared our findings to previous ideas about distinct controllers, and discuss a potential fusion of these ideas with ours. Specifically, we find that holding is distinct from both initial reaching and coming to a stop. Previous work argues that initial reaching and coming to a stop are themselves distinct (Ghez et al., 2007; Jayasinghe et al., 2022). Combining these two sets of arguments, we arrive at the possibility of three distinct controllers. 

      (20) It would be useful if the authors provided a definition of synergy, as well as distinguishing between muscle and movement synergies. 

      Response 2.A.20. We now provide this in lines 591-594:

      Here, “synergies” refer to abnormal co-activation patterns across joints that manifest as the patient tries to move – for example, the elbow involuntarily flexing as the patient tries to abduct their shoulder (Twitchell, 1951; Brunnstrom, 1966). 

      (21) Line 592-593. The wording of this sentence could be improved. 

      Response 2.A.21. We have switched this sentence to active voice for more clarity:

      Thus, while full weight support reduces both resting flexor biases and movement-related flexor synergies, this reduction seems more complete for synergies rather than resting biases.

      (22) Figure 9. In the left column, it should read normal synergies and normal resting posture.  

      Response 2.A.22. We intentionally used the same terminology, as the idea behind our conceptual model is that these patterns, which manifest as well-recognized abnormal synergies and abnormal resting postures in stroke, may be present in the healthy motor system as well, but kept in check by CST moderating the RST. At the same time, we recognize that, by definition, synergies and posture in controls are the “normal” reference point against which “abnormal” synergies and posture are defined after stroke. To clarify this issue, we thus decided to forgo the use of the terms “abnormal” in the figure, and instead refer to “synergistic movement ” and “synergistic resting posture”.

      (23) Figure 9. With stroke, is RST upregulated, a decreased influence of CST, or both? All seem plausible.

      Response 2.A.23a. We believe both can be happening. From previous work (e.g. McPherson et al., 2018) it seems safe to say that RST upregulation is the case, whereas one would also expect a decreased CST influence due to its damage due to the stroke. The relative weight of these influences would be interesting to elucidate in future work.

      I have not read the paper, but did McPherson et al., 2018 test these different hypotheses?  

      Response 2.A.23b. The main point of McPherson et al., 2018 is that increased synergy expression is due to increased RST involvement, rather than reduced CST influence. However, McPherson et al. do not show separate increases/reductions in RST/CST activity; they show that contralesional activity relative to ipsilesional activity is increased (using a laterality index). While it does seem that RST is upregulated in this case, this does not exclude the possibility that CST influence is reduced as well.

      We also noticed that the citation itself, while mentioned in the text, was missing from the bibliography. This is now fixed.

      For Figure 9, McPherson is cited as they provide evidence for the idea that RST involvement increases when arm support is decreased. This evidence is both direct (e.g. in their Figure 3 where they show that “Stroke participants exhibited increased activity in the contralesional (R) hemisphere as SABD loading increased” [i.e. arm support was reduced]) and indirect: they connect synergies to RST involvement, and also show increased synergies with reduced arm support (also shown multiple times previously). Both these arguments suggest that arm support reduces RST involvement. We have clarified the relevant sentence:

      The interesting implication of this conceptual model is that synergies are in fact postural abnormalities that spill over into active movement when the CST can no longer modulate the increased RST activation that occurs when weight support is removed. Supporting this idea, McPherson et al. found increased ipsilateral activity (which primarily represents activation via the descending RST (Zaaimi et al., 2012)) when the paretic arm had reduced support compared to full support (McPherson et al., 2018).

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      For Experiment 2, it is not immediately clear how the within-subject values are being pooled and compared across the different conditions. For instance, in the static perturbation trials, there are four blocks with 20 perturbation trials per block per arm (80 total per arm) with each location and direction once per block. For each participant, the comparison is between the location/direction that was most opposed (although this doesn't look accurately represented in Fig 7F). Therefore, the within-subject comparison is 4 trials per participant? Were these values averaged or pooled? It is a little odd that the SD for all the within-subjects trials are identical or nearly identical across conditions especially when looking at the example patient data in 7B and 7F.  

      Response 3.A.1. For static perturbation trials, the within-subject comparison involves 8 trials per participant: 4 trials corresponding to the perturbation direction/position combination with resting bias most opposed to the perturbation, and 4 trials corresponding to the perturbation direction/position combination with resting bias most aligned with the perturbation. These values were averaged for each individual. We have expanded our methods to make this part of our data analysis clear (lines 284-296) for all types of comparisons (unperturbed movement, pulse perturbation, static perturbations – now referred to as “release perturbation”).

      The across-subject SDs for the average resting forces for each one of these two conditions, shown in Figure 7F are indeed identical. This is due to how these two instances (most aligned vs. most resistive) were selected: because the perturbation directions come in pairs that exactly oppose each other (Figure 7B), if one were to select the position with the most opposing resting bias, that would mean that the combination with same position and the oppositely-directed perturbation would be the one with the most assistive resting bias. Hence the resting biases selected for the most opposing/assistive instances would be equal in magnitude and opposite to each other for each participant, as illustrated in Figure 7F, whereby the most-opposed bias for each individual is exactly opposite to the corresponding most-aligned bias for the same individual. We have added a brief commentary about this on the caption (lines 551-554), reproduced below:

      Note how the most-opposed resting bias for each patient is equal and opposite to the their mostaligned resting bias. This is because the same resting bias, when projected along the direction of two oppositely-directed perturbations (illustrated in C), it would oppose one with the same magnitude it would align with the other.

      Importantly, following suggestions by Reviewer 2 (see point 2.A.1), we now provide supplementary analyses that use the entirety of the relevant data, rather than the most extreme instances, which provide evidence supporting our main findings (Figures S5-2, S6-2, and S7-2).

      The printed colors in Figure 3 are very muddled and hard to read/interpret, especially in panel A. 

      Response 3.A.2. Thank you for pointing out this issue, also raised by Reviewer 1. We have adjusted the colors to be more distinct from each other and look clear both in print and on-screen, making use of dashed lines and stripes rather than different shades.

      I think it would improve readability and interpretation if Figure 8 and the results related to FM-UE were contained within the description of results for Experiment 1.

      Response 3.A.3. Thank you for this suggestion. This is actually a debate we had among ourselves earlier, and we can see merits to either ordering. It is very arguable that moving Figure 8 and the FMUE results within the rest of Experiment 1 may improve readability somewhat. However, we believe that presenting these results at the end better serves to illustrate the apparent paradox between the lack of direct connection between resting biases and active movement on one hand, and the relationship between resting biases and abnormal synergies on the other. We believe that this better sets the stage to present our conceptual model, which explains this paradox based on the role arm support plays in modulating the expression of both resting biases and abnormal synergies.

      Additional changes/corrections not outlined above

      Figure 1D displayed a right arm, but showed a target array (red dots) for a left arm paradigm. We now flip the target array shown for consistency.

      We corrected Figure 6C, which accidentally used an earlier definition of settling time which was based on lateral stabilization throughout the entire movement, rather focus on the period immediately following the pulse. The intended definition of settling time (as we had described in the Methods, lines 204-206 of original submission) focuses on lateral corrections specific to the pulse (rather than corrections when the participant approaches the endpoint) and better matches the one for settling time for the release (static) perturbation trials. Note that this change did not affect the (lack of) relationship between settling time and resting force bias, both across individuals (correlation plots now in Figure S6-1) and within individuals (now shown in the right part of panel 6D). Also in panel C, an error in the scaling for the maximum lateral deviation in the pulse direction (right side of the panel) is also now corrected.

      In addition, we made minor edits throughout the text to improve readability.

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews: 

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      In their manuscript, Gerlevik et al. performed an integrative analysis of clinical, genetic and transcriptomic data to identify MDS subgroups with distinct outcomes. The study was based on the building of an "immunoscore" and then combined with genotype and clinical data to analyze patient outcomes using multi-omics factor analysis. 

      Strengths: Integrative analysis of RNA-seq, genotyping and clinical data 

      Weaknesses: Validation of the bioinformatic pipeline is incomplete 

      Major comments: 

      (1) This study considered two RNA-seq data sets publicly available and generated in two distinct laboratories. Are they comparable in terms of RNA-seq technique: polyA versus rRNA depletion, paired-end sequencing, fragment length? 

      We want to reemphasize that the main point of this study is not to compare the BMMNC with the HSPC cohort. These datasets are not comparable because they were

      collected from different cell types, and we should not expect them to be matched. We just analysed them in parallel to check how much HSPCs contribute to the molecular signatures we see in BMMNC samples. However, we agree with the reviewer that similar RNA-seq experimental techniques should be employed to control for confounding factors. Here is the information that we found for HSPC and BMMNC RNA-seq studies:

      HSPC RNA-seq cohort: Total RNA was extracted using TRIzol (Thermo Scientific), and Sequencing was performed on an Illumina HiSeq4000 with 100-bp paired-end reads.

      BMMNC RNA-seq cohort: The RNA was extracted with TRIzol reagent (Thermo Scientific). RNA-sequencing libraries were prepared from poly(A)-selected RNA and were sequenced using Illumina HiSeq 2000 or 2500 platform with 100-bp paired-end reads. 

      The only difference between the two cohorts is that one cohort includes total RNAs, whereas the other has polyA-selected RNAs. Since the gene set signatures use the expression of proteincoding genes, which all have polyA tails and are included in total RNA libraries, the analysis will not be affected by total vs. polyA-selected RNA-seq techniques. 

      (2) Data quality control (figure 1): the authors must show in a graph whether the features (dimensions) of factor 1 were available for each BMMNC and CD34+ samples.  

      By features of Factor 1, we think the reviewer means the features with high weights for Factor 1 in BMMNC and CD34+ samples. Figure 2c-d clearly illustrates the important features and their associations with Factor 1 for all samples in both cohorts. The samples are the columns of the two heatmaps.

      (3) How to validate the importance of "immunoscore"? If GSEA of RNA-seq data was performed in the entire cohort, in the SF3B1-mutated samples or SRSF2-mutated samples (instead of patients having a high versus low level of factor 1 shown in Sup Fig. 4), what would be the ranking of Hallmarks or Reactome inflammatory terms among the others? 

      Our GSEA analysis was an attempt to validate the importance of our identified factors. As described in the paper, Factor 1 represents a combination of immunology scores (or  “immunoscores”) in CD34+ cohort. Applying GSEA, we identified upregulation of inflammation related pathways, chemokines, and Neutrophils in patients having high (4th quartile) versus low (1st quartile) levels of Factor 1. Interestingly, sorting patients by Factor 1 resulted in similar pattern based on gene signature scores (Figure 2d).    

      To show that Factor1 generated by MOFA is important and different from known MDS categories such as SF3B1 and SRSF2 mutants, we performed GSEA in SF3B1-mutated vs. SF3B1-WT samples and SRSF2-mutated vs. SRSF2-WT samples in the CD34+ cohort. As shown in Author response image 1, we did not see the upregulation of inflammation and interferon pathways in SF3B1 and SRSF2 mutant MDS.

      Author response image 1.

      GSEA showed no upregulation of inflammation and interferon pathways for SF3B1 and SRSF2 mutant in CD34+ cohort.  

      (4) To decipher cell-type composition of BMMNC and CD34+ samples, the authors used van Galen's data (2019; supplementary table 3). Cell composition is expressed as the proportion of each cell population among the others. Surprisingly, the authors found that the promonocytelike score was increased in SF3B1-mutated samples and not in SRSF2-mutated samples, which are frequently co-mutated with TET2 and associated with a CMML-like phenotype. Is there a risk of bias if bone marrow subpopulations such as megakaryocytic-erythroid progenitors or early erythroid precursors are not considered? 

      We thank the reviewer for their insightful comment about CMML and the high prevalence of SRSF2 mutation (> 45%) in CMML cases. Using single-cell RNA sequencing and high-parameter flow cytometry, Ferrall-Fairbanks et al. (DOI: 10.1158/2643-3230.BCD-21-0217) recently showed that CMML can be classified into three differentiation trajectories: monocytic, megakaryocyte-erythroid progenitor (MEP), and normal-like. One hallmark of monocytic-biased trajectory was the enrichment of inflammatory granulocyte–macrophage progenitor (GMP)-like cells, which we observed through our analysis for SRSF2 mutants (Figure 6a).

      Unfortunately,  van Galen's data does not provide any gene set for MEP, and there is no singlecell RNA-seq atlas for MDS to employ to calculate the MEP score. Also, we compared the Promono-like and GMP-like gene sets from van Galen's data, and we could not find any overlap, meaning that Promono-like is not specific enough to capture the signatures coming from the more differentiated progenitors such as GMPs. Therefore, as described in the paper, we focused on GMP-like rather than Promono-like.

      (5) Figures 2a and 2b indicated that the nature of retrotransposons identified in BMMNC and CD34+ was dicerent. ERVs were not detected in CD34+ cells. Are ERVs not reactivated in CD34+ cells? Is there a bias in the sequencing or bioinformatic method?  

      As described above, the two cohorts' sequencing methods, read length, etc., are identical.

      CD34+ RNA-seq is total RNA-seq that includes both polyA and non-polyA RTE transcripts.

      Therefore, the chance of bias and missing RTE signatures in CD34+ cohort is very low. L1 and Alu, which are shared between the two cohorts, are the two RTE families that are still active and make new insertions in humans. Our interpretation is that ERV activation in BM is associated with immune cells. As shown by Au et al. (DOI: 10.1016/j.ccell.2021.10.001), several ERV loci had expression in purified immune cell subsets in renal cell carcinoma samples, potentially explaining ERV upregulation in tumours responding to treatment as those biopsies had increased tumour infiltration.

      (6) What is the impact of factor 1 on survival? Is it dicerent between BMMNC and CD34+ cells considering the distinct composition of factor 1 in CD34+ and BMMNC? 

      As shown in Table 1, Factor 1 in the BMMNC cohort is associated with overall survival (P-val < 0.05) when we did multivariate analysis but not univariate analysis. We did not observe any association between Factor 1 and event-free survival in the BMMNC cohort. Also, The 10 factors identified by MOFA in BM CD34+ cohort did not show any significance associated with MDS overall survival (Supplementary Table 5). 

      (7) In Figure 1e, genotype contributed to the variance of in the CD34+ cell analyses more importantly than in the BMMNC. Because the patients are dicerent in the two cohorts, dicerences in the variance could be explained either by a greater variability of the type of mutations in CD34 or an increased frequency of poor prognosis mutations in CD34+ compared to BMMNC. The genotyping data must be shown.  

      The genotype has already been reported in Supplementary Table 2. In fact, the number of inspected genes was much higher in the BMMNC cohort (17 genes) compared to the CD34+ cohort (3 genes). Therefore, we have more significant variability of the type of mutations in the BMMNC cohort compared to the CD34+ cohort. For the CD34+ cohort, we only had mutations for three spliceosome genes, where most cases (n=28) were SF3B1 mutants with good prognosis. We think that the result makes sense because the less genetic variability, the more homogenous groups and the more chance that one factor or a group of factors can explain the genetic variance.   

      (8) Fig. 2a-b: Features with high weight are shown for each factor. For factor 9, features seemed to have a low weight (Fig. 1b and 1c). However, factor 9 was predictive of EFS and OS in the BMMNC cohort. What are the features driving the prognostic value of factor 9? 

      As shown in Figure 3b, The main features are RTE expression from LTR:ERV1, SINE:MIR, and SINE:Alu family.  

      (9) The authors also provided microarray analyses of CD34+ cell. It could be interesting to test more broadly the correlation between features identified by RNA-seq or microarrays. 

      The microarray data did not come with any genetic information or clinical data except survival information. Therefore, we could not apply MOFA on Microarray data. However, we did generate gene signature scores from Microarray data and investigated the relationship between inflammatory chemokines and cytokines, and IFN-I signature scores with MDS survival (Figure 3c and 4c).    

      (10) The authors should discuss the relevance of immunosenescence features in the context of SRSF2 mutation and extend the discussion to the interest of their pipeline for patient diagnosis and follow up under treatments. 

      We have added the below text to the discussion:

      Recent studies have shown that the expression of programmed death-ligand 1 (PD-L1) protein is significantly elevated in senescent cells (DOIs: 10.1128/mcb.00171-22, 10.1172/JCI156250, 10.1038/s41586-022-05388-4). Increased PD-L1 protein levels protect senescent cells from being cleared by cytotoxic immune cells that express the PD-1 checkpoint receptor. In fact, activation of the PD-1 receptor inhibits the cytotoxic capabilities of CD8 + T and NK cells, increasing immunosenescence.   

      Notably, patients with MDS who possess particular somatic mutations, such as those in the TP53, ASXL1, SETBP1, TET2, SRSF2, and RUNX1 genes, have an increased propensity to react favourably to PD-1/PD-L1 inhibitors (DOIs: 10.1111/bjh.17689, https://doi.org/10.1182/blood2020-141100) confirming that many cellular and molecular mechanisms, known to promote cellular senescence, including alteration of splicing machinery, are crucial stimulators of the expression of PD-L1 protein. Interestingly, in our analysis, we also observed a correlation between the senescence gene signature score and the expression of the PD-L1 gene in CD34+ cells (Supplementary Figure 7), supporting the previous findings linking PD-L1 gene expression to cellular senescence.

      The immunology and ageing features extracted from the MDS transcriptomic data used in our analysis pipeline can enhance the conventional risk-scoring systems for MDS by providing new insights into this disease, particularly in the context of inflammation and ageing. For some patients, the clinical and genetic features may remain relatively the same until follow-up. Still, the transcriptomic features might differ considerably from the baseline diagnosis, affecting the course of treatment.    

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      The authors performed a Multi-Omics Factor Analysis (MOFA) on analysis of two published MDS patient cohorts-1 from bone marrow mononuclear cells (BMMNCs) and CD34 cells (ref 17) and another from CD34+ cells (ref 15) --with three data modalities (clinical, genotype, and transcriptomics). Seven different views, including immune profile, inflammation/aging, Retrotransposon (RTE) expression, and cell-type composition, were derived from these modalities to attempt to identify the latent factors with significant impact on MDS prognosis. 

      SF3B1 was found to be the only mutation among 13 mutations in the BMMNC cohort that indicated a significant association with high inflammation. This trend was also observed to a lesser extent in the CD34+ cohort. The MOFA factor representing inflammation showed a good prognosis for MDS patients with high inflammation. In contrast, SRSF2 mutant cases showed a granulocyte-monocyte progenitor (GMP) pattern and high levels of senescence, immunosenescence, and malignant myeloid cells, consistent with their poor prognosis. Also, MOFA identified RTE expression as a risk factor for MDS. They proposed that this work showed the efficacy of their integrative approach to assess MDS prognostic risk that 'goes beyond all the scoring systems described thus far for MDS'. 

      Several issues need clarification and response: 

      (1) The authors do not provide adequate known clinical and molecular information which demonstrates prognostic risk of their sample cohorts in order to determine whether their data and approach 'goes 'beyond all the scoring systems described thus far for MDS'. For example, what data have the authors that their features provide prognostic data independent of the prior known factors related to prognosis (eg, marrow blasts, mutational, cytogenetic features, ring sideroblasts, IPSS-R, IPSS-M, MDA-SS)? 

      We agree with the reviewer that we did not generate a new cumulative risk score and compare it with the conventional risk scores for MDS. However, we identified individual MOFA factors, which are risk or protective factors for MDS, based on survival analysis in the BMMNC cohort. One reason that we did not generate our independent, cumulative score and compare it with other scores was that we did not receive any conventional risk score for the BMMNC cohort. However, we had access to all the clinical and genetic variables from the BMMNC cohort (except for three patients) that were required to calculate IPSS-R; hence, we calculated the IPSS-R in our resubmission for the BMMNC cohort. We made three IPSS-R risk categories by combining low and very low as low risk, and high and very high as high risk, and keeping intermediate as intermediate risk. Our survival analysis of these three categories showed a clear match between IPSS-R score and MDS survival (Author response image 2a).

      We then investigated the relationship between factors 2, 4, and 9 from MOFA with three IPSS-R risk groups.  Integration of IPSS-R risk groups with factor values confirmed the finding in the manuscript that Factors 4 and 9 generally exert a protective influence over the MDS risk, whilst higher levels of Factor 2 predict a high-risk MDS (Author response image 2b). However, we see so many outliers in all three factors, indicating that some patients were assigned to the wrong IPSS-R categories because IPSS-R calculation is based on clinical and genetic variables and does not include the transcriptomics data for coding and non-coding genomic regions. 

      Author response image 2.

      Comparison of IPSS-R risk categories and MOFA risk and protective factors.

      (2) A major issue in analyzing this paper relates to the specific patient composition from whom the samples and data were obtained. The cells from the Shiozawa paper (ref 17) is comprised of a substantial number of CMML patients. Thus, what evidence have the authors that much of the data from the BMMNCs from these patients and mutant SRSF2 related predominantly to their monocytic dicerentiation state?  

      We thank the reviewer for the insightful comment about the monocytic differentiation state of CMML and SRSF2 mutant cases. The BMMNC cohort has 11 CMML and 17 SRSF2 mutant cases, of which six are shared between the two groups. We have divided the patients into four groups: CMML only, SRSF2 mutant only, CCML and SRSF2 mutant, and others. We have generated boxplots for all cellular composition gene signature scores for these groups and compared the scores between these groups. As explained above, Ferrall-Fairbanks et al. (DOI: 10.1158/2643-3230.BCD-21-0217) recently showed that CMML can be classified into three differentiation trajectories: monocytic, megakaryocyte-erythroid progenitor (MEP), and normal-like. One hallmark of monocytic-biased trajectory was the enrichment of inflammatory granulocyte–macrophage progenitor (GMP)-like cells, which we observed through our analysis for the CMML cases with SRSF2 mutation (Author response image 3.).

      Author response image 3.

      Cellular composition gene signature scores for CMML and SRSF2 mutant versus other cases. CMML cases with SRSF2 mutation show a significant higher level of GMP and GMP-like scores compared to other MDS cases.  

      (3) In addition, as the majority of patients in the Shiozawa paper have ring sideroblasts (n=59), thus potentially skewing the data toward consideration mainly of these patients, for whom better outcomes are well known.  

      We disagree with the reviewer. We used 94 BMMNC samples from Shiozawa’s paper, of which 19 cases had Refractory Anemia with Ring Sideroblasts (RARS), 4 cases had Refractory Anemia with Ring Sideroblasts and thrombocytosis (RARS-T), and 5 cases had Refractory cytopenia with multilineage dysplasia and ring sideroblasts (RCMD-RS). In total, we had 28 cases (~30%) with Ring Sideroblasts (RS), which are not large enough to skew the data.

      (4) Further, regarding this patient subset, what evidence have the authors that the importance of the SF3B1 mutation was merely related to the preponderance of sideroblastic patients from whom the samples were analyzed? 

      We had 34 SF3B1 mutant cases, of which 25 had Ring Sideroblasts (RS). The total number of cases with RS in the BMMNC cohort was 28. Therefore, the BMMNC cohort is not an RSdominant cohort, and RS cases did not include all SF3B1 mutants. Furthermore, it was recently shown by Ochi et al. (DOI: 10.1038/s41598-022-18921-2) that RS is a consequence of SF3B1K700E mutation, and it is not a cause to affect the SF3B1 importance.

      (5) An Erratum was reported for the Shiozawa paper (Shiozawa Y, Malcovati L, Gallì A, et al. Gene expression and risk of leukemic transformation in myelodysplasia. Blood. 2018 Aug 23;132(8):869-875. doi: 10.1182/blood-2018-07-863134) that resulted from a coding error in the construction of the logistic regression model for subgroup prediction based on the gene expression profiles of BMMNCs. This coding error was identified after the publication of the article. The authors should indicate the ecect this error may have had on the data they now report.  

      Thank you for bringing this important issue to our attention. The error resulted from a mistake in the construction of the logistic regression model for subgroup prediction based on the gene expression profiles of BMMNCs. However, this issue does not affect our result because we analysed the expression data from scratch and generated our own gene signature scores. Also, the error has no impact on the genetics and clinical information that we received from the authors.

      (6) What information have the authors as to whether the dicering RTE findings were not predominantly related to the dicerentiation state of the cell population analyzed (ie higher in BM MNCs vs CD34, Fig 1)? What control data have the authors regarding these values from normal (non-malignant) cell populations? 

      As described above, L1 and Alu, the two RTE families shared between the two cohorts, are still active and make new insertions in humans (Figure 2.a-b). Our interpretation is that ERV activation in BM is associated with immune cells. This interpretation is further supported by the findings of Au et al. (DOI: 10.1016/j.ccell.2021.10.001), where several ERV loci had expression in purified immune cell subsets in renal cell carcinoma samples. 

      Unfortunately, none of these two cohorts had normal (non-malignant) cell populations. We think that the MOFA unbiased way of modelling the heterogeneity is su@icient to capture the RTE derepressed phenotype of a subset of MDS cases compared to others, and we do not need normal cases to further support the finding. 

      (7) The statement in the Discussion regarding the ecects of SRSF2 mutation is speculative and should be avoided. Many other somatic gene mutations have known stronger ecects on prognosis for MDS. 

      One aim of this study is to identify specific immune signatures associated with SRSF2 and SF3B1 mutations, which are highly prevalent in MDS. Although other mutations, such as TP53, may have a stronger correlation with poor survival, numerous studies have demonstrated a clear link between SRSF2 mutations and poor prognosis.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      1) Line 99-100 The authors claimed that IQCH is a novel IQ motif-containing protein, which is essential for spermiogenesis and fertilization. However, it is not clear if the currently published paper named an ancient testis-specific IQ motif containing H gene that regulates specific transcript isoform expression during spermatogenesis.

      Response: Thanks to the reviewer’s comment. Yes, IQCH is the ancient testis-specific IQ motif containing H gene. According to the reviewer’s suggestion, we have revised the statement “Here, we revealed a testis-specific IQ motif containing H gene, IQCH, which is essential for spermiogenesis and fertilization” in Introduction part of revised manuscript.

      2) Line 154-159 Immunofluorescence staining for the marker of the acrosome (peanut agglutinin: PNA) as well as the mitochondrial marker (Transcription Factor A, Mitochondrial: TFAM) was performed to confirm the deficiency of the acrosomes and mitochondria in the proband's spermatozoa. It seems that the spermatozoa acrosomes and mitochondria were severely defective in the proband. The authors should indicate IQCH's role in mitochondrial and acrosome function and IQCH's role in mitochondrial and acrosome function these points by explaining how IQCH is related to mitochondrial and acrosome deficiency. In addition to staining, other functional analyses should be performed to strengthen the claim of acrosome and mitochondrial defects.

      Response: We appreciate the reviewer's valuable suggestion. Indeed, in our study, the results of multiomics analysis on WT and Iqch KO testes, including LC-MS/MS analysis, proteomic analysis, and RNA-seq analysis, found a potential role of IQCH in mitochondrial and acrosome function. GO analysis of these analysis indicated a significant enrichment in mitochondrial and acrosomal functions, including acrosomal vesicle, acrosome assembly, vesicle fusion with Golgi apparatus, mitochondrion organization, mitochondrial matrix, and so on. Among the enriched molecules, in particular, HNRNPK mainly expresses at Golgi phase and Cap phase (Biggiogera et al. 1993). ANXA7 is a calcium-dependent phospholipid-binding protein that is a negative regulator of mitochondrial apoptosis (Du et al. 2015). Loss of SLC25A4 results in mitochondrial energy metabolism defects in mice (Graham et al. 1997). Furthermore, we confirmed that IQCH interacted with HNRNPK, ANXA7, and SLC25A4 through Co-IP, and exhibited downregulation in the sperm of the Iqch KO mice by immunofluorescence and western blotting. Moreover, IQCH can bind to HNRPAB, which could influence the mRNAs level of Catsper-family, such as Catsper1, Catsper2, and Catsper3, which are crucial for acrosome development (Jin ZR et al). In addition, we also detected HNRPAB binding to Dnhd1, which affects mitochondria development (Tan C et al). Therefore, in addition to staining, the other functional analyses also have provided the evidence of acrosome and mitochondrial defects caused by IQCH absence.

      3) Line 180-182 IQCH knockout mice were generated. It is not clear why Mut-IQCH mice were not generated to be consistent with the human sequencing data.

      Response: Thanks for reviewer’s comments. To understand IQCH's impact on fecundity in mice, we employed CRISPR-Cas9 to generate mice encoding the orthologous variant of IQCH387+1_387+10del detected in humans. Regrettably, due to sequence complexity, the designed sgRNA's specificity and efficiency were low, hindering successful Iqch knock-in mouse construction. Considering IQCH387+1_387+10del results in absent expression, we pursued Iqch knockout mice to explore IQCH's role in spermatogenesis.

      4) Line 241.Figure 5A Gene Ontology (GO) analysis of the IQCH-bound proteins revealed a particular enrichment in fertilization, sperm axoneme assembly, mitochondrial organization, calcium channel, and RNA processing. But these GO functions are not shown in Figure 5A. The entire Figure 5 should be revised to enhance readability.

      Response: We sincerely apologize for the oversight. These GO functions were indeed identified during the analysis of IQCH-bound proteins. Regrettably, we unintentionally omitted these GO functions when creating the plots. We have revised the plots in Figure 5 in revised manuscript to enhance readability.

      5) Line 242 "33 ribosomal proteins were identified (Fig. 5B), indicating that IQCH might be involved in protein synthesis". The authors should perform an analysis to support the claim of protein synthesis defects.

      Response: Thanks to reviewer’s suggestions. Initially, we have supplemented Co-IP experiments to confirm the interaction between IQCH and three ribosomal proteins (RPL4, RPS3, and RPS7), chosen from a pool of 33 ribosomal proteins based on different protein scores (Figure R1). In addition, the proteomic analysis revealed 807 upregulated proteins and 1,186 downregulated proteins in KO mice compared to WT mice. We confirmed the key downregulated proteins by western blotting and immunofluorescence staining in the previous manuscript. These results indicated that IQCH might interact with ribosomal proteins to regulate protein expression. Naturally, the regulation of protein synthesis by IQCH requires further experiments for confirmation in future studies.

      Author response image 1.

      The interaction between IQCH and ribosomal proteins. Co-IP assays confirmed that IQCH interacted with RPL4, RPS3, and RPS7 in WT mouse sperm.

      6) Line 244 The authors mentioned too many GO functions without focus.

      Response: Following reviewer’s suggestions, we have simplified IQCH-associated GO functions in the revised manuscript.

      7) Figure 6, there are no negative controls in all co-IP experiments. Band sizes are not marked. Thus, all data can't be evaluated. This also raises concern about whether the LC-MS/MS experiment to identify IQCH interacting protein was well-controlled? All co-IP experiments were poorly designed to draw any conclusion.

      Response: Thanks to reviewer’s comments. We have supplemented negative controls in all Co-IP experiments and provided band sizes in Figure 6 in revised manuscript.

      8) The authors mentioned that IQCH can bind to CaM. But they didn't detect CaM protein in Figure 5. Did the LC-MS/MS experiment really work?

      Response: Thanks to reviewer’s comments. We detected the interaction of CaM protein with IQCH in the LC-MS/MS experiment analysis, which has been submitted as new Data S1 in the revised manuscript. We also confirmed their binding in mouse sperm by Co-IP experiment and immunofluorescence staining, which results were shown in Figure 6 and Figure S10 in the previous study.

      9) Figure 6D. Because IQCH is lost in Iqch KO sperm, what is the point of showing in the Co-IP assay that CaM does not bind to IQCH in Iqch KO sperm?

      Response: Following reviewer’s suggestions, we have deleted the results of Co-IP assay that CaM could not bind to IQCH in Iqch KO sperm.

      10) Figure 6E. The Co-IP assay does not support the authors' claim that the decreased expression of HNRPAB was due to the reduced binding of IQCH and CaM by the knockout of IQCH or CaM.

      Response: Thanks to reviewer’s expert comments. Indeed, the results of Figure 6E confirmed the interaction of IQCH and CaM in K562 cells, and also showed that the expression of HNRPAB was reduced when IQCH or CaM was knocked down, suggesting that IQCH or CaM might regulate HNRPAB expression. While in Figure 6F, the downregulation of HNRPAB caused by knocking down IQCH (or CaM) cannot be rescued when overexpressed CaM (or IQCH), indicating that CaM (or IQCH) cannot mediate HNRPAB expression alone. Therefore, the reduced expression of HNRPAB in Figure 6E might result from the weakened interaction between IQCH and CaM, but not a superficial downregulation of IQCH or CaM expression. To avoid the confusion, we have modified the relevant description in the revied manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Major comments:

      1) Lines 117 and 129: Please provide the reference number (NM_xxx.x) for the IQCH isoform that was used to interpret this variant. This is key information. Also, please provide the predicted truncation consequence caused by this splicing variant to IQCH protein.

      Response: Thanks to reviewer’s suggestions. We have added reference number (NM_0010317152) of IQCH in manuscript. We employed splice site prediction tools, such as SpliceAI, RDDC, and varSEAK, to assess the expression consequences of this IQCH splicing variant. These tools couldn't anticipate the outcome of this splicing variant. However, the results of minigene splicing assay showed that the IQCH c.387+1_387+10del resulted in degradation of IQCH.

      2) Figure 1A: The deleted sequence indicated by the red box does not match IQCH c.387+1_387+10del. Please show a plot of the exon-intron boundary under the Sanger sequencing results of the WT allele.

      Response: Thanks to reviewer’s suggestions. We are sorry for the use of non-standard descriptions about the results of Sanger sequencing. According to the HGVS nomenclature (Figure R2), we have modified the red box to match IQCH c.387+1_387+10del and have added the exon-intron boundary in Figure 1A accordingly.

      Author response image 2.

      HGVS nomenclature description of the IQCH variant. The picture showed a detailed HGVS nomenclature description of IQCH c.387+1_387+10del.

      Minor comments:

      a) Manuscript title: It is suggested to change the title to "IQCH regulates spermatogenesis by interacting with CaM to promote the expression of RNA-binding proteins".

      Response: According to reviewer’s suggestions, we have modified the title as “IQCH regulates spermatogenesis by interacting with CaM to promote the expression of RNA-binding proteins”.

      b) Line 116: Please introduce the abbreviation WES. Also, please introduce the other abbreviations (such as WT, SEM, TEM, etc.) the first time they appear.

      Response: Thanks to reviewer’s suggestions. We have provided the full explanations for all abbreviations upon their initial appearance.

      c) Line 140, "Nonfunctional IQCH": Due to "the lack of IQCH expression" in Line 137, should "Nonfunctional IQCH" be changed into "IQCH deficiency"?

      Response: Thanks for reviewer’s the detailed review. We have modified this title in Results part of the revised manuscript as followed: “IQCH deficiency leads to sperm with cracked axoneme structures accompanied by defects in the acrosome and mitochondria”

      d) The information on the following references is incomplete: Sechi et al., Tian et al., Wang et al., and Xu et al. Please provide issue/page/article numbers.

      Response: We are sorry for our oversight. We have provided the missing issue/page/article numbers for the references.

      e) The title of Figure 1: Please emphasize that the male infertile-associated variant is "homozygous".

      Response: Thanks to reviewer’s suggestions. We have revised the title of Figure 1 to emphasize the homozygous variant as follows: “Identification of a homozygous splicing mutation in IQCH in a consanguineous family with male infertility”.

      f) Table 1: Please provide the reference paper for the normal values. Response: We appreciate the reviewer's detailed checks. We have provided the reference paper for the normal values in Table 1.

      g) Figure 5F is distorted. Please make sure that it is a perfect circle.

      Response: Thanks to reviewer’s suggestions. We have revised both the graphical representation and layout of Figure 5 in revised manuscript to make sure the readability.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      While the writing is generally clear, there are multiple examples of where the writing could be improved for clarity.

      1) While some terms are defined throughout the manuscript, many abbreviations are not defined upon their first mention, such as WES, RT-PCR, TYH, HTF, KSOM, KEGG, RIPA, PMSE, SDS-PAGE, H&L, and HRP.

      Response: Thanks to reviewer’s suggestions. We have provided the full explanations for all abbreviations upon their initial appearance.

      2) On line 44, the claim that spermatogenesis is the "most complex biological process" is rather subjective and hard to support with concrete data.

      Response: Thanks to reviewer’s suggestions. We have modified this description in the Introduction section as follow: “Spermatogenesis is one of the most complex biological process in male organisms and functions to produce mature spermatozoa from spermatogonia in three phases: (i) spermatocytogenesis (mitosis), (ii) meiosis, and (iii) spermiogenesis.”

      3) On line 54, I think the authors meant "heterogeneous," not "heterologous."

      Response: Thanks to reviewer’s comment. We have changed “heterologous” into “heterogeneous”.

      4) On line 156, I think the authors meant "deficiency," not "deficient."

      Response: Thanks to reviewer’s comment. We are sorry to make this mistake. We have made the correction in the revised version of the manuscript.

      5) On line 300, K562 cells are mentioned, but neither in the Methods nor the Results are any details about the biological origin of these cells (or rationale for their use other than co-expression of IQCH and CaM) provided.

      Response: Thanks to reviewer’s suggestion. K562 cell line is a human leukemia cell line and is enriched in the expression of IQCH and CaM, we thus opted to use this cell line for an easier knockdown of IQCH and CaM. We have supplemented the details about the biological origin of these cells in Method section of revised manuscript.

      6) For the Results section describing Figure 6H, it would be nice to provide some explanation of the results of ICHQ overexpression alone relative to control situations and not just relative to the delta-IQ version or relative to simultaneous CaM manipulation.

      Response: According to the reviewer’s suggestion, we have supplemented the co-transfection of control and CaM plasmids in HEK293T cells, and the results showed that the expression of HNRPAB in cells co-transfected with control and CaM plasmids was similar to that of co-transfected with IQCH (△IQ) /CaM plasmids, but was lower than that in the cells overexpressing the WT-IQCH and CaM plasmids, confirming the nonfunction of IQCH (△IQ) plasmids. We have shown the results in Figure 6H in the revised manuscript.

      7) The sentence on lines 352-354 is confusing.

      Response: We apologize for any confusion caused by the sentence in question. We have revisited the sentence and made appropriate revisions to enhance its clarity as follows: “Our findings suggest that the fertilization function is the main action of IQ motif-containing proteins, while each specific IQ motif-containing protein also has its own distinct role in spermatogenesis.”

      8) The use of "employee" on line 371 is awkward and not very scientific.

      Response: Thanks to reviewer’s comment. We have changed “employee” in to “downstream effector protein” on line 376

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This study provides an important cell atlas of the gill of the mussel Gigantidas platifrons using a single nucleus RNA-seq dataset, a resource for the community of scientists studying deep sea physiology and metabolism and intracellular host-symbiont relationships. The work, which offers solid insights into cellular responses to starvation stress and molecular mechanisms behind deep-sea chemosymbiosis, is of relevance to scientists interested in host-symbiont relationships across ecosystems.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Wang et al have constructed a comprehensive single nucleus atlas for the gills of the deep sea Bathymodioline mussels, which possess intracellular symbionts that provide a key source of carbon and allow them to live in these extreme environments. They provide annotations of the different cell states within the gills, shedding light on how multiple cell types cooperate to give rise to the emergent functions of the composite tissues and the gills as a whole. They pay special attention to characterizing the bacteriocyte cell populations and identifying sets of genes that may play a role in their interaction with the symbiotes.

      Wang et al sample mussels from 3 different environments: animals from their native methane-rich environment, animals transplanted to a methane-poor environment to induce starvation, and animals that have been starved in the methane-poor environment and then moved back to the methane-rich environment. They demonstrated that starvation had the biggest impact on bacteriocyte transcriptomes. They hypothesize that the upregulation of genes associated with lysosomal digestion leads to the digestion of the intracellular symbiont during starvation, while the non-starved and reacclimated groups more readily harvest the nutrients from symbiotes without destroying them.

      Strengths:

      This paper makes available a high-quality dataset that is of interest to many disciplines of biology. The unique qualities of this non-model organism and the collection of conditions sampled make it of special interest to those studying deep sea adaptation, the impact of environmental perturbation on Bathymodioline mussels populations, and intracellular symbiotes. The authors do an excellent job of making all their data and analysis available, making this not only an important dataset but a readily accessible and understandable one.

      The authors also use a diverse array of tools to explore their data. For example, the quality of the data is augmented by the use of in situ hybridizations to validate cluster identity and KEGG analysis provides key insights into how the transcriptomes of bacteriocytes change.

      The authors also do a great job of providing diagrams and schematics to help orient non-mussel experts, thereby widening the audience of the paper.

      Thank the reviewer for the valuable feedback on our study. We are grateful that the reviewers found our work to be interesting and we appreciate their thorough evaluation of our research. Their constructive comments will be considered as we continue to develop and improve our study.

      Weaknesses:

      One of the main weaknesses of this paper is the lack of coherence between the images and the text, with some parts of the figures never being referenced in the body of the text. This makes it difficult for the reader to interpret how they fit in with the author's discussion and assess confidence in their analysis and interpretation of data. This is especially apparent in the cluster annotation section of the paper.

      We appreciate the feedback and suggestions provided by the reviewer, and we have revised our manuscript to make it more accessible to general audiences.

      Another concern is the linking of the transcriptomic shifts associated with starvation with changes in interactions with the symbiotes. Without examining and comparing the symbiote population between the different samples, it cannot be concluded that the transcriptomic shifts correlate with a shift to the 'milking' pathway and not other environmental factors. Without comparing the symbiote abundance between samples, it is difficult to disentangle changes in cell state that are due to their changing interactions with the symbiotes from other environmental factors.

      We are grateful for the valuable feedback and suggestions provided by the reviewer. Our keen interest lies in understanding symbiont responses, particularly at the single-cell level. However, it's worth noting that existing commercial single-cell RNA-seq technologies rely on oligo dT priming for reverse transcription and barcoding, thus omitting bacterial gene expression information from our dataset. We hope that advancements in technology will soon enable us to perform an integrated analysis encompassing both host and symbiont gene expression.

      Additionally, conclusions in this area are further complicated by using only snRNA-seq to study intracellular processes. This is limiting since cytoplasmic mRNA is excluded and only nuclear reads are sequenced after the organisms have had several days to acclimate to their environment and major transcriptomic shifts have occurred.

      We appreciate the comments shared by the reviewer and agree that scRNA-seq provides more comprehensive transcriptional information by targeting the entire mRNA of the cell. However, we would like to highlight that snRNA-seq has some unique advantages over scRNA-seq. Notably, snRNA-seq allows for simple snap-freezing of collected samples, facilitating easier storage, particularly for samples obtained during field trips involving deep-sea animals and other ecologically significant non-model animal samples. Additionally, unlike scRNA-seq, snRNA-seq eliminates the need for tissue dissociation, which often involves prolonged enzymatic treatment of deep-sea animal tissue/cells under atmospheric pressure. This process can potentially lead to the loss of sensitive cells or alterations in gene expression. Moreover, snRNA-seq procedures disregard the size and shape of animal cells, rendering it a superior technology for constructing the cell atlas of animal tissues. Consequently, we assert that snRNA-seq offers flexibility and represents a suitable choice for the research objects of our current research.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Wang, He et al. shed insight into the molecular mechanisms of deep-sea chemosymbiosis at the single-cell level. They do so by producing a comprehensive cell atlas of the gill of Gigantidas platifrons, a chemosymbiotic mussel that dominates the deep-sea ecosystem. They uncover novel cell types and find that the gene expression of bacteriocytes, the symbiont-hosting cells, supports two hypotheses of host-symbiont interactions: the "farming" pathway, where symbionts are directly digested, and the "milking" pathway, where nutrients released by the symbionts are used by the host. They perform an in situ transplantation experiment in the deep sea and reveal transitional changes in gene expression that support a model where starvation stress induces bacteriocytes to "farm" their symbionts, while recovery leads to the restoration of the "farming" and "milking" pathways.

      A major strength of this study includes the successful application of advanced single-nucleus techniques to a non-model, deep-sea organism that remains challenging to sample. I also applaud the authors for performing an in situ transplantation experiment in a deep-sea environment. From gene expression profiles, the authors deftly provide a rich functional description of G. platifrons cell types that is well-contextualized within the unique biology of chemosymbiosis. These findings offer significant insight into the molecular mechanisms of deep-sea host-symbiont ecology, and will serve as a valuable resource for future studies into the striking biology of G. platifrons.

      The authors' conclusions are generally well-supported by their results. However, I recognize that the difficulty of obtaining deep-sea specimens may have impacted experimental design. In this area, I would appreciate more in-depth discussion of these impacts when interpreting the data.

      Thank the reviewer for their valuable feedback on our study. We're grateful that the reviewers found our work interesting, and we appreciate their thorough evaluation of our research. We'll consider their constructive comments as we continue to develop and improve our study.

      Because cells from multiple individuals were combined before sequencing, the in situ transplantation experiment lacks clear biological replicates. This may potentially result in technical variation (ie. batch effects) confounding biological variation, directly impacting the interpretation of observed changes between the Fanmao, Reconstitution, and Starvation conditions. It is notable that Fanmao cells were much more sparsely sampled. It appears that fewer cells were sequenced, resulting in the Starvation and Reconstitution conditions having 2-3x more cells after doublet filtering. It is not clear whether this is due to a technical factor impacting sequencing or whether these numbers are the result of the unique biology of Fanmao cells. Furthermore, from Table S19 it appears that while 98% of Fanmao cells survived doublet filtering, only ~40% and ~70% survived for the Starvation and Reconstitution conditions respectively, suggesting some kind of distinction in quality or approach.

      There is a pronounced divergence in the relative proportions of cells per cell type cluster in Fanmao compared to Reconstitution and Starvation (Fig. S11). This is potentially a very interesting finding, but it is difficult to know if these differences are the expected biological outcome of the experiment or the fact that Fanmao cells are much more sparsely sampled. The study also finds notable differences in gene expression between Fanmao and the other two conditions- a key finding is that bacteriocytes had the largest Fanmao-vs-starvation distance (Fig. 6B). But it is also notable that for every cell type, one or both comparisons against Fanmao produced greater distances than comparisons between Starvation and Reconstitution (Fig. 6B). Again, it is difficult to interpret whether Fanmao's distinctiveness from the other two conditions is underlain by fascinating biology or technical batch effects. Without biological replicates, it remains challenging to disentangle the two.

      As highlighted by the reviewer, our experimental design involves pooling multiple biological samples within a single treatment state before sequencing. We acknowledge the concern regarding the absence of distinct biological replicates and the potential impact of batch effects on result interpretation. While we recognize the merit of conducting multiple sequencing runs for a single treatment to provide genuine biological replicates, we contend that batch effects may not exert a strong influence on the observed patterns.

      In addition, we applied a bootstrap sampling algorithm to assess whether the gene expression patterns within a cluster are more similar than those between clusters. This algorithm involves selecting a portion of cells per cluster and examining whether this subset remains distinguishable from other clusters. Our assumption was that if different samples exhibited distinct expression patterns due to batch effect, the co-assignment probabilities of a cluster would be very low. This expectation was not met in our data, as illustrated in Fig. S2. The lack of significantly low co-assignment probabilities within clusters suggests that batch effects may not exert a strong influence on our results.

      Indeed, we acknowledge a noticeable shift in the expression patterns of certain cell types, such as the bacteriocyte. However, this is not universally applicable across all cell types. For instance, the UMAP figure in Fig. 6A illustrates a substantial overlap among basal membrane cell 2 from Fanmao, Starvation, and Reconstitution treatments, and the centroid distances between the three treatments are subtle, as depicted in Fig. 6B. This consistent pattern is also observed in DEPC, smooth muscle cells, and the food groove ciliary cells.

      The reviewer also noted variations in the number of cells per treatment. Specifically, Fanmao sequencing yielded fewer than 10 thousand cells, whereas the other two treatments produced 2-3 times more cells after quality control (QC). It is highly probable that the technician loaded different quantities of cells into the machine for single-nucleus sequencing—a not uncommon occurrence in this methodology. While loading more cells may increase the likelihood of doublets, it is crucial to emphasize that this should not significantly impact the expression patterns post-QC. It's worth noting that overloading samples has been employed as a strategic approach to capture rare cell types, as discussed in a previous study (reference: 10.1126/science.aay0267).

      The reviewer highlighted the discrepancy in cell survival rates during the 'doublet filtering' process, with 98% of Fanmao cells surviving compared to approximately 40% and 70% for the Starvation and Reconstitution conditions, respectively. It's important to clarify that the reported percentages reflect the survival of cells through a multi-step QC process employing various filtering strategies.

      Post-doublet removal, we filtered out cells with <100 or >2500 genes and <100 or >6000 unique molecular identifiers (UMIs). Additionally, genes with <10 UMIs in each data matrix were excluded. The observed differences in survival rates for Starvation and Reconstitution cells can be attributed to the total volume of data generated in Illumina sequencing. Specifically, we sequenced approximately 91 GB of data for Fanmao, ~196 GB for Starvation, and ~249 GB for Reconstitution. As a result, the qualified data obtained for Starvation and Reconstitution conditions was only about twice that of Fanmao due to the limited data volume.

      The reviewer also observed a divergence in the relative proportions of cells per cell type cluster in Fanmao compared to Reconstitution and Starvation, as depicted in Fig. S1. This discrepancy may hold true biological significance, presenting a potentially intriguing finding. However, our discussion on this pattern was rather brief, as we acknowledge that the observed differences could be influenced by the sample preparation process for dissection and digestion. It is crucial to consider that cutting a slightly different area during dissection may result in variations in the proportion of cells obtained. While we recognize the potential impact of this factor, we do not think that the sparsity of sampling alone could significantly affect the relative proportions of cells per cell type.

      In conclusion, we acknowledge the reviewer's suggestion that sequencing multiple individual samples per treatment condition would have been ideal, rather than pooling them together. However, the homogenous distribution observed in UMAP and the consistent results obtained from bootstrap sampling suggest that the impact of batch effects on our analyses is likely not substantial. Additionally, based on our understanding, the smaller number of cells in the Fanmao sample should not have any significant effect on the resulting different proportion of cells or the expression patterns per each cluster.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Wang et al. explored the unique biology of the deep-sea mussel Gigantidas platifrons to understand the fundamental principles of animal-symbiont relationships. They used single-nucleus RNA sequencing and validation and visualization of many of the important cellular and molecular players that allow these organisms to survive in the deep sea. They demonstrate that a diversity of cell types that support the structure and function of the gill including bacteriocytes, specialized epithelial cells that host sulfur-oxidizing or methane-oxidizing symbionts as well as a suite of other cell types including supportive cells, ciliary, and smooth muscle cells. By performing experiments of transplanting mussels from one habitat which is rich in methane to methane-limited environments, the authors showed that starved mussels may consume endosymbionts versus in methane-rich environments upregulated genes involved in glutamate synthesis. These data add to the growing body of literature that organisms control their endosymbionts in response to environmental change.

      The conclusions of the data are well supported. The authors adapted a technique that would have been technically impossible in their field environment by preserving the tissue and then performing nuclear isolation after the fact. The use of single-nucleus sequencing opens the possibility of new cellular and molecular biology that is not possible to study in the field. Additionally, the in-situ data (both WISH and FISH) are high-quality and easy to interpret. The use of cell-type-specific markers along with a symbiont-specific probe was effective. Finally, the SEM and TEM were used convincingly for specific purposes in the case of showing the cilia that may support water movement.

      We appreciate the valuable feedback provided by the reviewer on our study. It is encouraging to know that our work was found to be interesting and that they conducted a thorough evaluation of our research. We will take their constructive comments into account as we strive to develop and enhance our study. Thank the reviewer for all the input.

      The one particular area for clarification and improvement surrounds the concept of a proliferative progenitor population within the gill. The authors imply that three types of proliferative cells within gills have long been known, but their study may be the first to recover molecular markers for these putative populations. The markers the authors present for gill posterior end budding zone cells (PEBZCs) and dorsal end proliferation cells (DEPCs) are not intuitively associated with cell proliferation and some additional exploration of the data could be performed to strengthen the argument that these are indeed proliferative cells. The authors do utilize a trajectory analysis tool called Slingshot which they claim may suggest that PEBZCs could be the origin of all gill epithelial cells, however, one of the assumptions of this analysis is that differentiated cells are developed from the same precursor PEBZC population.

      However, these conclusions do not detract from the overall significance of the work of identifying the relationship between symbionts and bacteriocytes and how these host bacteriocytes modulate their gene expression in response to environmental change. It will be interesting to see how similar or different these data are across animal phyla. For instance, the work of symbiosis in cnidarians may converge on similar principles or there may be independent ways in which organisms have been able to solve these problems.

      We are grateful for the valuable comments and suggestions provided by the reviewer. All suggestions have been carefully considered, and the manuscript has been revised accordingly. We particularly value the reviewer's insights regarding the characterization of the G. platifrons gill proliferative cell populations. In a separate research endeavor, we have conducted experiments utilizing both cell division and cell proliferation markers on these proliferative cell populations. While these results are not incorporated into the current manuscript, we would be delighted to share our preliminary findings with the reviewer. Our preliminary results indicate that the proliferative cell populations exhibit positivity for cell proliferation markers and contain a significant number of mitotic cells..

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Further experiments are needed to link the changes in transcriptomes of Bathymodioline mussels in the different environmental conditions to changes in their interactions with symbiotes. For example, quantifying the abundance and comparing the morphology of symbiotes between the environmental conditions would lend much support for shifting between milking and farming strategies. Without analyzing the symbiotes and comparing them across populations, it is difficult to comment on the mechanisms of interactions between symbiotes and the hosts. Without this analysis, this data is better suited towards comments about the general effect of environmental perturbation and stress on gene expression in these mussels.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comments. We are also very curious about the symbiont responses, especially at the single-cell level. However, all the current commercial single-cell RNA-seq technologies are based on oligo dT priming for reverse transcription and barcoding. Therefore, the bacterial gene expression information is omitted from our dataset. Hopefully, with the development of technology, we could conduct an integrated analysis of both host and symbiont gene expression soon.

      Additionally, clarification is needed on which types of symbiotes are being looked at. Are they MOX or SOX populations? Are they homogenous? What are the concentrations of sulfur at the sampled sites?

      We thank you for your valuable comments and suggestions. Gigantidas platifrons harbors a MOX endosymbiont population characterized by a single 16S rRNA phylotype. We apologize for any confusion resulting from our previous wording. To clarify, we have revised lines 57-59 of our introduction

      In the text and images, consider using standardized gene names and leaving out the genome coordinates. This would greatly help with readability. Also, be careful to properly follow gene naming and formatting conventions (ie italicizing gene names and symbols).

      We appreciate the reviewer’s insightful comments. In model animals, gene nomenclature often stems from forward genetic approaches, such as the identification of loss-of-function mutants. These gene names, along with their protein products, typically correspond to unique genome coordinates. Conversely, in non-model invertebrates (e.g., Gigantidas platifrons of present study), gene prediction relies on a combination of bioinformatics methods, including de novo prediction, homolog-based prediction, and transcriptomics mapping. Subsequently, the genes are annotated by identifying their best homologs in well-characterized databases. Given that different genes may encode proteins with similar annotated functions, we chose to include both the gene ID (genome coordinates) and the gene name in our manuscript. This dual labeling approach ensures that our audience receives accurate and comprehensive information regarding gene identification and annotation.

      Additionally, extending KEGG analysis to the atlas annotation section could help strengthen the confidence of annotations. For example, when identifying bacteriocyte populations, the functional categories of individual marker genes (lysosomal proteases, lysosomal traffic regulators, etc) are used to justify the annotation. Presenting KEGG support that these functional categories are upregulated in this population relative to others would help further support how you characterize this cluster by showing it's not just a few specific genes that are enriched in this cell group, but rather an overall functionality.

      We appreciate the valuable suggestion provided by the reviewer. Indeed, incorporating KEGG analysis into the atlas annotation section could further enhance the confidence in our annotations. However, in our study, we encountered some limitations that impeded us from conducting a comprehensive KEGG enrichment analysis.

      Firstly, the number of differentially expressed genes (DEGs) that we identified for certain cell populations was relatively small, making it challenging to meet the threshold required for meaningful KEGG enrichment analysis. For instance, among the 97 marker genes identified for the Bacteriocyte cluster, only two genes, Bpl_scaf_59648-4.5 (lysosomal alpha-glucosidase-like) and Bpl_scaf_52809-1.6 (lysosomal-trafficking regulator-like isoform X1), were identified as lysosomal genes. To generate reliable KEGG enrichments, a larger number of genes is typically required.

      Secondly, single-nucleus sequencing, as employed in our study, tends to yield a relatively smaller number of genes per cell compared to bulk RNA sequencing. This limited gene yield can make it challenging to achieve sufficient gene representation for rigorous KEGG enrichment analysis.

      Furthermore, many genes in the genome still lack comprehensive annotation, both in terms of KEGG and GO annotations. In our dataset, out of the 33,584 genes obtained through single-nuclei sequencing, 26,514 genes have NO KEGG annotation, and 25,087 genes have NO GO annotation. This lack of annotations further restricts the comprehensive application of KEGG analysis in our study.

      The claim that VEPCs are symbiote free is not demonstrated. Additional double in situs are needed to show that markers of this cell type localize in regions free of symbiotes.

      We appreciate your comments and suggestions. In Figure 5B, our results demonstrate that the bacteriocytes (green fluorescent signal) are distant from the VEPCs, which are located around the tip of the gill filaments (close to the food groove). We have revised our Figure 5B to make it clear.

      Additionally, it does not seem like trajectory analysis is appropriate for these sampling conditions. Generally, to create trajectories confidently, more closely sampled time points are needed to sufficiently parse out the changes in expression. More justification is needed for the use of this type of analysis here and a discussion of the limitations should be mentioned, especially when discussing the hypotheses relating to PEBZCs, VEPCs, and DEPCs.

      We greatly appreciate your thoughtful commentary. It is important to acknowledge that in the context of a developmental study, incorporating more closely spaced time points indeed holds great value. In our ongoing project investigating mouse development, for instance, we have implemented time points at 24-hour intervals. However, in the case of deep-sea adult animals, we hypothesized a slower transcriptional shift in such extreme environment, which led us to opt for a time interval of 3-7 days. Examining the differential expression profiles among the three treatments, we observed that most cell types exhibited minimal changes in their expression profiles. For the cell types strongly impacted by in situ transplantation, their expression profiles per cell type still exhibited highly overlap in the UMAP analysis (Figure 6a), thus enabling meaningful comparisons. Nevertheless, we recognize that our sampling strategy may not be flawless. Additionally, the challenging nature of conducting in situ transplantation in 1000-meter depths limited the number of sampling occasions available to us. We sincerely appreciate your input and understanding.

      Finally, more detail should be added on the computational methods used in this paper. For example, the single-cell genomics analysis protocol should be expanded on so that readers unfamiliar with BD single-cell genomics handbooks could replicate the analysis. More detail is also needed on what criteria and cutoffs were used to calculate marker genes. Also, please be careful to cite the algorithms and software packages mentioned in the text.

      Acknowledged, thank you for highlighting this. In essence, the workflow closely resembles that of the 10x Genomics workflow (despite the use of a different software, i.e., Cell Ranger). We better explain the workflow below, and also noting that this information may no longer be relevant for newer users of BD or individuals who are not acquainted with BD, given that the workflow underwent a complete overhaul in the summer of 2023.

      References to lines

      Line 32: typo "..uncovered unknown tissue heterogeny" should read "uncovering" or "and uncovered")

      Overall abstract could include more detail of findings (ex: what are the "shifts in cell state" in line 36 that were observed)

      We apologize for the mistakes, and have revised the manuscript accordingly.

      Line 60: missing comma "...gill filament structure, but also"

      We apologize for the mistakes, and have revised the manuscript accordingly.

      Line 62-63: further discussion here, or in the relevant sections of the specific genes identified in the referenced bulk RNA-seq project could help strengthen confidence in annotation

      We appreciate the comment, and have revised the manuscript accordingly.

      Line 112: what bootstrapping strategy? Applied to what?

      This is a bootstrap sampling algorithm to assess the robustness of each cell cluster developed in a recent biorxiv paper. (Singh, P. & Zhai, Y. Deciphering Hematopoiesis at single cell level through the lens of reduced dimensions. bioRxiv, 2022.2006.2007.495099 (2022). https://doi.org:10.1101/2022.06.07.495099)

      Lines 127-129: What figures demonstrate the location of the inter lamina cells? Are there in situs that show this?

      We apologize for any errors; the referencing of figures in the manuscript has been revised for clarity

      Lines 185-190: does literature support these as markers of SMCs? Are they known smooth muscle markers in other systems?

      We characterized the SMCs by the expression of LDL-associated protein, angiotensin-converting enzyme-like protein, and the "molecular spring" titin-like protein, all of which are commonly found in human vascular smooth muscle cells. Based on this analysis, we hypothesize that these cells belong to the smooth muscle cell category.

      Line 201: What is meant by "regulatory roles"?

      In this context, we are discussing the expression of genes encoding regulatory proteins, such as SOX transcription factors and secreted-frizzled proteins.

      Line 211: which markers disappeared? What in situs show this?

      We apologize for the mistakes, and have revised the manuscript accordingly.

      Line 211: typo, "role" → "roll"

      We apologize for the mistakes, and have revised the manuscript accordingly.

      Line 214: what are these "hallmark genes"

      We apologize for the mistakes, here we are referring to the genes listed in figure 4B. We have revised the manuscript accordingly.

      Line 220: are there meristem-like cells in metazoans? If so, this would be preferable to a comparison with plants.

      In this context, we are discussing the morphological characteristics of gill proliferative cell populations found in filibranch bivalves. These populations, namely PEPC, VEPC, and DEPC, consist of cells exhibiting morphological traits akin to those of plant cambial-zone meristem cells. These cells typically display small, round shapes with a high nucleus-to-plasma ratio. We acknowledge that while these terms are utilized in bivalve studies (citations below), they lack the robust support seen in model systems backed by molecular biology evidences. The present snRNA-seq data, however, may offer valuable cell markers for future comprehensive investigations.

      Leibson, N. L. & Movchan, O. T. Cambial zones in gills of Bivalvia. Mar. Biol. 31, 175-180 (1975). https://doi.org:10.1007/BF00391629

      Wentrup, C., Wendeberg, A., Schimak, M., Borowski, C. & Dubilier, N. Forever competent: deep-sea bivalves are colonized by their chemosynthetic symbionts throughout their lifetime. Environ. Microbiol. 16, 3699-3713 (2014). https://doi.org:10.1111/1462-2920.12597

      Cannuel, R., Beninger, P. G., McCombie, H. & Boudry, P. Gill Development and its functional and evolutionary implications in the blue mussel Mytilus edulis (Bivalvia: Mytilidae). Biol. Bull. 217, 173-188 (2009). https://doi.org:10.1086/BBLv217n2p173

      Line 335: what is slingshot trajectory analysis? Does this differ from the pseudotime analysis?

      Slingshot is an algorithm that uses the principal graph of the cells to infer trajectories. It models trajectories as curves on the principal graph, capturing the progression and transitions between different cellular states.

      Both Slingshot and pseudotime aim to infer cellular trajectories. Slingshot focuses on capturing branching patterns which is fully compatible with the graph generated using dimensionality reduction such as UMAP and PHATE, while pseudotime analysis aims to order cells along a continuous trajectory. It does not rely on dimensionality reduction graphs. We used both in the MS for different purposes.

      Line 241: introduce FISH methodology earlier in the paper, when in situ images are first referenced

      We appreciate the comment, and have revised the manuscript accordingly.

      Line 246-249: can you quantify the decrease in signal or calculate the concentration of symbiotes in the cells? Was 5C imaged whole? This can impact the fluorescent intensity in tissues of different thicknesses.

      We appreciate your comment. In Figure 5C, most of the typical gill filament region is visible (the ventral tip of the gill filament, and the mid part of the gill filament) except for the dorsal end. The gill filament of bathymodioline mussels exhibits a simple structure: a single layer of bacteriocytes grow on the basal membrane. Consequently, the gill slices have a fairly uniform thickness (with two layers of bacteriocytes and one layer of interlamina cells in between), minimizing any potential impact on fluorescent intensity. As of now, detailed quantification of intracellular symbionts may necessitate continuous TEM or ultra-resolution confocal sections to 3D reconstruct the bacteriocytes, which may exceed the scope of the current study. Therefore, fluorescent intensity remains the only method available to us for estimating bacterial density/distribution across the gill filament.

      Line 249: What is meant by 'environmental gradient?'

      Here we are refereeing the gases need for symbiont’s chemosynthesis. We have revised the manuscript to make it clear.

      Lines 255-256: Were the results shown in the TEM images previously known? Not clear what novel information is conveyed in images Fig 5 C and D

      In the Fig 5 C and D, we’ve delivered a high-quality SEM TEM image of a typical bacteriocyte, showcasing its morphology and subcellular machinery with clarity. These electron microscopy images offer the audience a comprehensive introduction to the cellular function of bacteriocytes. Additionally, they serve as supportive evidence for the bacteriocytes' snRNA-seq data.

      Line 295-296: Can you elaborate on what types of solute carrier genes have been shown to be involved with symbioses?

      We appreciate the comment, and have revised the manuscript accordingly. The putative functions of the solute carriers could be found in Figure 5I.

      Line 297-301: Which genes from the bulk RNA-seq study? Adding more detail and references in cluster annotation would help readers better understand the justifications.

      We appreciate the comment, and have revised the manuscript accordingly.

      Line 316 -322: Can you provide the values of the distances?

      We also provide values in the main text, in addition to the Fig6b. We also provide a supplementary Table (Supplementary Table S19).

      Line 328: What are the gene expression patterns?

      We observed genes that are up- and down-regulated in Starvation and reconstitution.

      LIne 334-337: A visualization of the different expression levels of the specific genes in clusters between sites might be helpful to demonstrate the degree of difference between sites.

      We have prepared a new supplementary file showing the different expression levels.

      Line 337: Citation needed

      We appreciate the comment. Here, we hypothesize the cellular responds based on the gene’s function and their expression patterns.

      Line 402-403: Cannot determine lineages from data presented. Need lineage tracing over time to determine this

      We acknowledge the necessity of conducting lineage tracing over time to validate this hypothesis. Nonetheless, in practical terms, it is difficult to obtain samples for testing this. Perhaps, it is easier to use their shallow sea relatives to test this hypothesis. However, in practice, it is very difficult.

      413-414: What are the "cell-type specific responses to environmental change"? It could be interesting to present these results in the "results and discussion" section

      These results are shown in Supplementary Figure S8.

      Line 419-424: Sampling details might go better earlier on in the paper, when the sampling scheme is introduced.

      We appreciate the comments. Here, we are discussing the limitations of our current study, not sampling details.

      Line 552: What type of sequencing? Paired end? How long?

      We conducted 150bp paired-end sequencing.

      556-563: More detail here would be useful to readers not familiar with the BD guide. Also be careful to cite the software used in analysis!

      The provided guide and handbook elucidate the intricacies of gene name preparation, data alignment to the genome, and the generation of an expression matrix. It is worth mentioning that we relied upon outdated versions of the aforementioned resources during our data analysis phase, as they were the only ones accessible to us at the time. However, we have since become aware of a newer pipeline available this year, rendering the information presented here of limited significance to other researchers utilizing BD.

      Many thanks for your kind reminding. We have now included a reference for STAR. All other software was cited accordingly. There are no scholarly papers or publications to refer to for the BD pipeline that we can cite.

      Line 577-578: How was the number of clusters determined? What is meant by "manually combine the clusters?" If cells were clustered by hand, more detail on the method is needed, as well as direct discussion and justification in the body of the paper.

      It would be more appropriate to emphasize the determination of cell types rather than clusters. The clusters were identified using a clustering function, as mentioned in the manuscript. It's important to note that the clustering function (in our case, the FindClusters function of Seurat) provides a general overview based on diffuse gene expression. Technically speaking, there is no guarantee that one cluster corresponds to a single cell type. Therefore, it is crucial to manually inspect the clustering results to assign clusters to the appropriate cell types. In some cases, multiple clusters may be assigned to the same cell type, while in other cases, a single cluster may need to be further subdivided into two or more cell types or sub-cell types, depending on the specific circumstances.

      For studies conducted on model species such as humans or mice, highly and specifically expressed genes within each cluster can be compared to known marker genes of cell types mentioned in previous publications, which generally suffices for annotation purposes. However, in the case of non-model species like Bathymodioline mussels, there is often limited information available about marker genes, making it challenging to confidently assign clusters to specific cell types. In such situations, in situ hybridisation proves to be incredibly valuable. In our study, WISH was employed to visualise the expression and morphology of marker genes within clusters. When WISH revealed the expression of marker genes from a cluster in a specific type of cell, we classified that cluster as a genuine cell type. Moreover, if WISH demonstrated uniform expression of marker genes from different clusters in the same cell, we assigned both clusters to the same cell type.

      We expanded the description of the strategy in the Method section.

      LIne 690-692: When slices were used, what part of the gill were they taken from?

      We sectioned the gill around the mid part which could represent the mature bacteriocytes.

      References to figures:

      General

      Please split the fluorescent images into different channels with an additional composite. It is difficult to see some of the expression patterns. It would also make it accessible to colorblind readers.

      We appreciate the comments and suggestions from the reviewer. We have converted our figures to CMYK colour which will help the colorblind audiences to read our paper.

      Please provide the number of replicates for each in situ and what proportion of those displayed the presented pattern.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comments. We have explained in the material and methods part of the manuscript.

      Figure 2.C' is a fantastic summary and really helps the non-mussel audience understand the results. Adding schematics like this to Figures 3-5 would be helpful as well.

      We value the reviewer's comments. We propose that Figures 3K, 4C, and 5A-D could offer similar schematic explanations to assist the audience.

      Figure 2:

      Figures 2.C-F, 2.C', 2.H-J are not referenced in the text. Adding in discussions of them would help strengthen your discussions on the cluster annotation

      We appreciate the reviewer's comments. We have revise the manuscript accordingly.

      In 2.B. 6 genes are highlighted in red and said to be shown in in situs, but only 5 are shown.

      We apology for the mistake. We didn’t include the result 20639-0.0 WISH in present study. We have changed the label to black.

      Figure 3:

      FIg 2C-E not mentioned.

      We appreciate the reviewer's comments. We have revise the manuscript accordingly.

      In 3.B 8 genes are highlighted in red and said to be shown in in situs. Only 6 are.

      The result of the WISH were provided in Supplementary Figures S4 and S5.

      FIgure 3.K is not referenced in the legend.

      We appreciate the comment, and have revised the manuscript accordingly.

      Figure 4:

      In Figure D, it might be helpful to indicate the growth direction.

      We appreciate the comment, and have revised the manuscript accordingly by adding an arrow in panel D to indicate growth direction.

      4F: A double in situ with the symbiote marker is needed to demonstrate the nucleolin-like positive cells are symbiote free.

      We appreciate the comment. The symbiont free region could be found in Figure 5A.

      Figure 5:

      In 5.A, quantification of symbiote concentration would help support your conclusion that they are denser around the edges.

      We appreciate the comment, as we mentioned above, detailed quantification of intracellular symbionts may necessitate continuous TEM or ultra-resolution confocal sections to 3D reconstruct the bacteriocytes, which may exceed the scope of the current study. Therefore, fluorescent intensity remains the only method available to us for estimating bacterial density/distribution across the gill filament.

      In 5.D, the annotation is not clear. Adding arrows like in 5.C would be helpful.

      We appreciate the comment, and have revised the manuscript accordingly.

      A few genes in 5.F are not mentioned in the paper body when listing other genes. Mentioning them would help provide more support for your clustering.

      We appreciate the comment, and have revised the manuscript accordingly.

      Is 5.I meant to be color coded with the gene groups from 5.F? Color Coding the gene names, rather than organelles or cellular structures might portray this better and help visually strengthen the link between the diagram and your dot plot.

      We appreciate the suggestions. We've experimented with color-coding the gene names, but some colors are less discernible against a white background.

      Figure 6:

      6.B Is there a better way to visualize this data? The color coding is confusing given the pairwise distances. Maybe heatmaps?

      We attempted a heatmap, as shown in the figure below. However, all co-authors agree that a bar plot provides clearer visualization compared to the heatmap. We agree that the color scheme maya be confusing because they use the same color as for individual treatment. So we change the colors.

      Author response image 1.

      Figure 6.D: Why is the fanmao sample divided in the middle?

      Fig6C show that single-cell trajectories include branches. The branches occur because cells execute alternative gene expression programs. Thus, in Fig 6D, we show changes for genes that are significantly branch dependent in both lineages at the same time. Specifically, in cluster 2, the genes are upregulated during starvation but downregulated during reconstitution. Conversely, genes in cluster 1 are downregulated during starvation but upregulated during reconstitution. It's of note that Fig 6D displays only a small subset of significantly branch-dependent genes.

      FIgure 6.D: Can you visualize the expression in the same format as in figures 2-5?

      We appreciate the comments from the reviewer. As far as we know, this heatmap are the best format to demonstrate this type of gene expression profile.

      Supplementary Figure S2:

      Please provide a key for the cell type abbreviations

      We appreciate the comment, and have added the abbreviations of cell types accordingly.

      Supplementary Figures S4 and S5:

      What part of the larger images are the subsetted image taken from?

      We appreciate the comment, these images were taken from the ventral tip and mid of the gill slices, respectively. We have revised the figure legends to make it clear.

      Supplemental Figure S7:

      If clusters 1 and 2 show genes up and downregulated during starvation, what do clusters 4 and 3 represent?

      Cluster 1: Genes that are obviously upregulated during Starvation, and downregulated during reconstitution; luster4: genes are downregulated during reconstitution but not obviously upregulated during Starvation.

      Cluster 2 show genes upregulated during reconstitution, and cluster 3 obviously downregulated during Starvation.

      Author response table 1.

      Supplemental Figure S8:

      This is a really interesting figure that I think shows some of the results really well! Maybe consider moving it to the main figures of the paper?

      We appreciate the comments and suggestions. We concur with the reviewer on the significance of the results presented. However, consider the length of this manuscript, we have prioritized the inclusion of the most pertinent information in the main figures. Supplementary materials containing additional figures and details on the genes involved in these pathways are provided for interested readers.

      Supplemental Figure S11:

      Switching the axes might make this image easier for the reader to interpret. Additionally, calculating the normalized contribution of each sample to each cluster could help quantify the extent to which bacteriocytes are reduced when starving.

      Thank you for the insightful suggestion, which we have implemented as detailed below. We acknowledge the importance of understanding the changes in bacteriocyte proportions across different treatments. However, it's crucial to note that the percentage of cells per treatment is highly influenced by factors such as the location of digestion and sequencing, as previously mentioned.

      Author response image 2.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The following are minor recommendations for the text and figures that may help with clarity:

      Fig. 3K: This figure describes water flow induced by different ciliary cells. It is not clear what the color of the arrows corresponds to, as they do not match the UMAP (i.e. the red arrow) and this is not indicated in the legend. Are these colours meant to indicate the different ciliary cell types? If so it would be helpful to include this in the legend.

      We appreciate the reviewer's comments and suggestions. The arrows indicate the water flow that might be agitated by the certain types of cilium. We have revised our figure and figure legends to make it clear.

      Line 369: The incorrect gene identifier is given for the mitochondrial trifunctional enzyme. This gene identifier is identical to the one given in line 366, which describes long-chain-fatty-acid-ligase ACSBG2-like (Bpl_scaf_28862-1.5).

      We appreciate the reviewer's comments and suggestions. We have revised our manuscript accordingly.

      Line 554: The Bioproject accession number (PRJNA779258) does not appear to lead to an existing page in any database.

      We appreciate the reviewer's comments and suggestions. We have released this Bioproject to the public.

      Line 597-598: it would be helpful to know the specific number of cells that the three sample types were downsampled to, and the number of cells remaining in each cluster, as this can affect the statistical interpretation of differential expression analyses.

      The number of cells per cluster in our analysis ranged from 766 to 14633. To mitigate potential bias introduced by varying cell numbers, we implemented downsampling, restricting the number of cells per cluster to no more than 3500. This was done to ensure that the differences between clusters remained less than 5 times. We experimented with several downsampling strategies, exploring cell limits of 4500 and 2500, and consistently observed similar patterns across these variations.

      Data and code availability:

      The supplementary tables and supplementary data S1 appear to be the final output of the differential expression analyses. Including the raw data (e.g. reads) and/or intermediate data objects (e.g. count matrices, R objects), in addition to the code used to perform the analyses, may be very helpful for replication and downstream use of this dataset. As mentioned above, the Bioproject accession number appears to be incorrect.

      We appreciate the reviewer's comments and suggestions. Regarding our sequencing data, we have deposited all relevant information with the National Center for Biotechnology Information (NCBI) under Bioproject PRJNA779258. Additionally, we have requested the release of the Bioproject. Furthermore, as part of this round of revision, we have included the count matrices for reference.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      As noted in the public review, my only major concerns are around the treatment of progenitor cell populations. I am sympathetic to the challenges of these experiments but suggest a few possible avenues to the authors.

      First, there could be some demonstration that these cells in G. platifrons are indeed proliferative, using EdU incorporation labeling or a conserved epitope such as the phosphorylation of serine 10 in histone 3. It appears in Mytilus galloprovincialis that proliferating cell nuclear antigen (PCNA) and phospho-histone H3 have previously been used as good markers for proliferative cells (Maiorova and Odintsova 2016). The use of any of these markers along with the cell type markers the authors recover for PEBZCs for example would greatly strengthen the argument that these are proliferative cells.

      If performing these experiments would not be currently possible, the authors could use some computation approaches to strengthen their arguments. Based on conserved cell cycle markers and the use of Cell-Cycle feature analysis in Seurat could the authors provide evidence that these progenitors occupy the G2/M phase at a greater percentage than other cells? Other than the physical position of the cells is there much that suggests that these are proliferative? While I am more convinced by markers in VEPCs the markers for PEBZCs and DEPCs are not particularly compelling.

      While I do not think the major findings of the paper hinge on this, comments such as "the PBEZCs gave rise to new bacteriocytes that allowed symbiont colonization" should be taken with care. It is not clear that the PBEZCs are proliferative and there does not seem to be any direct evidence that PBEZCs (or DEPCs or VEPCS for that manner) are the progenitor cells through any sort of labeling or co-expression studies.

      We appreciate the comments and suggestions from the reviewer. We have considered all the suggestions and have revised the manuscript accordingly. We especially appreciate the reviewer’s suggestions about the characterisations of the G. platifrons gill proliferative cell populations. In a separate research project, we have tested both cell division and cell proliferation markers on the proliferation cell populations. Though we are not able to include these results in the current manuscript, we are happy to share our preliminary results with the reviewer. Our results demonstrate the proliferative cell populations, particularly the VEPCs, are cell proliferation marker positive, and contains high amount of mitotic cells.

      Author response image 3.

      Finally, there is a body of literature that has examined cell proliferation and zones of proliferation in mussels (such as Piquet, B., Lallier, F.H., André, C. et al. Regionalized cell proliferation in the symbiont-bearing gill of the hydrothermal vent mussel Bathymodiolus azoricus. Symbiosis 2020) or other organisms (such as Bird, A. M., von Dassow, G., & Maslakova, S. A. How the pilidium larva grows. EvoDevo. 2014) that could be discussed.

      We appreciate the comments and suggestions from the reviewer. We have considered all the suggestions and have revised the manuscript accordingly (line 226-229).

      Minor comments also include:

      Consider changing the orientation of diagrams in Figure 2C' in relationship to Figure 2C and 2D-K.

      We appreciate the comments and suggestions from the reviewer. The Figure 2 has been reorganized.

      For the diagram in Figure 3K, please clarify if the arrows drawn for the direction of inter lamina water flow is based on gene expression, SEM, or some previous study.

      We are grateful for the reviewer's valuable feedback and suggestions. The arrows in the figure indicate the direction of water flow that could be affected by specific types of cilium. Our prediction is based on both gene expression and SEM results. To further clarify this point, we have revised the figure legend of Fig. 3.

      Please include a label for the clusters in Figure 5E for consistency.

      We have revised our Figure 5E to keep our figures consistent.

      Please include a note in the Materials and Methods for Monocle analysis in Figure 6.

      We conducted Monocle analyses using Monocle2 and Monocle 3 in R environment. We have revised our material and methods with further information of Figure 6.

      In Supplement 2, the first column is labeled PEBC while the first row is labeled PEBZ versus all other rows and columns have corresponding names. I am guessing this is a typo and not different clusters?

      We appreciate the great effort of the reviewer in reviewing our manuscript. We have corrected the typo in the revised version.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1:

      1. The most important concern that I have refers to the FDTD simulations to characterize the ZMW, as shown in Appendix 2, Figure 4. So far, the explanations given in the caption of Figure 4 are confusing and misleading: the authors should provide more detailed explanations on how the simulations were performed and the actual definition of the parameters used. In particular:

      a. lines 1330-1332: it is not clear to me how the fluorescence lifetime can be calculated from the detected signal S (z), and why they are horizontal, i.e., no z dependence? Which lifetimes are the authors referring to?

      b. lines 1333-1335: Where do these values come from? And how do they relate to panels D & E? From what I can see in these panels the lifetimes are highly dependent on z and show the expected reduction of lifetime inside the nanostructures.

      c. lines 1336-1337: Why the quantum yield of the dyes outside the ZMW differs from those reported in the literature? In particular the changes of quantum yield and lifetime for Alexa 488 are very large (also mentioned in the corresponding part of Materials & Methods but not explained in any detail).

      We thank the Reviewer for his detailed questions on the FDTD simulations. We have now added the missing equation related to the computation of signal-averaged fluorescence lifetimes from the FDTD simulations. Specifically to the three points raised:

      a) The fluorescence lifetime is indeed not calculated from the detected signal S(z), but from the radiative and non-radiative rates in the presence of the ZMW as given in eq. 9-10. However, we use the detected signal S(z) to compute the average fluorescence lifetime over the whole z-profile of the simulation box, which we relate to the experimentally measured fluorescence lifetimes as given in Appendix 7, Figure 1. We have now added the equation to compute the signal-weighted fluorescence lifetimes, which we denote as <𝜏>S , in eq. 13 in the methods. To clarify this point, we have added the symbol <𝜏>S to the plots in Appendix 2, Figure 4 D-E and Appendix 7, Figure 1 C-D.

      b) The estimated lifetimes were obtained as the signal-weighted average over the lifetime profiles, (<𝜏>S) as given in the new eq. 13. All plotted quantities, i.e., the detection efficiency η, quantum yield ϕ, detected signal S(z), and fluorescence lifetime, are computed from the radiative and loss rates obtained from the FDTD simulation according to eqs. 8-11. To make this clearer, we have now added the new Appendix 2 – Figure 5 which shows the z-profiles of the quantities (radiative and loss rates) used to derive the experimental observables.

      c) There are multiple reasons for the differences of the quantum yields of the two analytes used in this study compared to the literature values. For cyanine dyes such as Alexa647, it is well known that steric restriction (as e.g. caused by conjugation to a biomolecule) can lead to an increase of the quantum yield and fluorescence lifetime. We observe a minor increase of the fluorescence lifetime for Alexa647 from the literature value of 1.17 ns to a value of 1.37 ns when attached to Kap95, which is indicative of this effect. In the submitted manuscript, this was discussed in the methods in lines 936-938 (lines 938-945 in the revised manuscript). For the dye Alexa488, which is used to label the BSA protein, this effect is absent. Instead, we observe (as the Reviewer correctly notes) a quite drastic reduction of the fluorescence lifetime compared to the unconjugated dye from 4 ns to 2.3 ns. In cases where a single cysteine is labeled on a protein, such a drastic reduction of the quantum yield usually indicates the presence of a quenching moiety in proximity of the labeling site, such as tryptophane, which acts via the photo-induced electron transfer mechanism. Indeed, BSA contains two tryptophanes that could be responsible for the low quantum yield of the conjugated dyes. The situation is complicated by the fact that BSA contains 35 cysteines that can potentially be labeled (although 34 are involved in disulfide bridges). The labeled BSA was obtained commercially and the manufacturer lists the degree of labeling as ~6 dye molecules per protein, with a relative quantum yield of 0.2 compared to the standard fluorescein. This corresponds to an absolute quantum yield of ~0.16, which is low compared to the literature value for Alexa488 of ~0.8.

      Based on the measured fluorescence lifetime, we estimate a quantum yield of 0.46, which is higher than the photometrically obtained value of 0.16 reported by the manufacturer. Fully quenched, nonfluorescent dyes will not contribute to the lifetime measurement but are detected in the photometric quantum yield estimates. The difference between the lifetime and photometric based quantum yield estimates thus suggest that part of the fluorophores are almost fully quenched. While it is unknown where the dyes are attached to the protein, the low quantum yield could be indicative of dye-dye interactions via pi-pi stacking, which can often lead to non-fluorescent dimers. This is supported by the fact that the manufacturer reports color differences between batches of labeled protein, which indicate spectral shifts of the absorption spectrum when dye-dye adducts are formed by π-π stacking. We have now added a short discussion of this effect in lines 938-941. We note that the conclusions drawn on the quenching effect of the metal nanostructure remain valid despite the drastic reduction of the quantum yield for Alexa488, which leads to a further quantum yield reduction of the partly quenched reference state.

      2) A second important concern refers to Figure 3: Why is there so much variability on the burst intensities reported on panels C, D? They should correspond to single molecule translocation events and thus all having comparable intensity values. In particular, the data shown for BSA in panel D is highly puzzling, since it not only reflects a reduced number of bursts (which is the main finding) but also very low intensity values, suggesting a high degree of quenching of the fluorophore being proximal to the metal on the exit side of the pore. In fact, the count rates for BSA on the uncoated pore range form 50-100kcounts/s, while on the coated pores thy barely reach 30 kcounts/s, a clear indication of quenching. Importantly, and in direct relation to this, could the authors exclude the possibility that the low event rates measured on BSA are largely due to quenching of the dye by getting entangled in the Nsp mesh just underneath the pore but in close contact to the metal?

      The Reviewer raises a valid concern, but further analysis shows that this is unproblematic. Notably, the burst intensities are in fact not reduced, in contrast to the visual impression obtained from the time traces shown in the figure. The time trace of the BSA intensity is visually dominated by high-intensity bursts which mask the low-intensity bursts in the plot. In contrast, in Figure 3 the reduced number of BSA events results in a sparser distribution of the intensity spikes, which allows low-intensity events to be seen. Different to the visual inspection, the spike-detection algorithm does not exhibit any bias in terms of the duration or the number of photons of the detected events between the different conditions for both BSA and Kap95, as shown in the new Appendix 7 – Figure 1. Using FCS analysis it can be tested whether the event duration varies between the different conditions shown in Figure 3 C-D. This did not show a significant difference in the estimated diffusion time for BSA (Appendix 7 – Figure 1 C,D). Contrary to the suggestion of the Reviewer, we also do not observe any indication of quenching by the metal between uncoated and Nsp1-coated pores for BSA. Such quenching should result in differences of the fluorescence lifetimes, which however is not evident in our experimental data (Appendix 7 – Figure 1 F).

      3) Line 91: I suggest the authors remove the word "multiplexed" detection since it is misleading. Essentially the authors report on a two-color excitation/detection scheme which is far from being really multiplexing.

      We have changed the word to “simultaneous” now and hope this avoids further confusion.

      4) Line 121: why are the ZMW fabricated with palladium? Aluminum is the gold-standard to reduce light transmissivity. An explanation for the choice of this material would be appreciated by the community.

      In a previous study (Klughammer and Dekker, Nanotechnology, 2021), we established that palladium can have distinct advantages compared to other ZMW metals such as aluminum and gold, most prominently, an increased chemical stability and reduced photoluminescence. For this study, we chose palladium over aluminum as it allowed the use of simple thiol chemistry for surface modification. In the beginning of the project, we experimented with aluminum pores as well. We consistently found that the pores got closed after measuring their ionic conductance in chlorine-containing solutions such as KCl or PBS. This problem was avoided by choosing palladium.

      5) Lines 281-282: This statement is somewhat misleading, since it reads such that the molecules stay longer inside the pore. However, if I understand correctly, these results suggest that Kap95 stays closer to the metal on the exit side. This is because measurements are being performed on the exit side of the pore as the excitation field inside the pore is quite negligible.

      We thank the Reviewer for this comment and have clarified the text in lines 290-292 as suggested to: “(…) this indicates that, on the exit side, Kap95 diffuses closer to the pore walls compared to BSA due to interactions with the Nsp1 mesh”

      6) Lines 319-320: Although the MD simulations agree with the statement being written here, the variability could be also due to the fact that the proteins could interact in a rather heterogenous manner with the Nsp mesh on the exit side of the pore, transiently trapping molecules that then would stay longer and/or closer to the metal altering the emission rate of the fluorophores. Could the authors comment on this?

      The variation mentioned in the text refers to a pore-to-pore variation and thus needs to be due to a structural difference between individual pores. This effect would also need to be stable for the full course of an experiment, typically hours. We did not find any structural changes in the fluorescence lifetimes measured on individual pores such as suggested by the Reviewer. We think that the suggested mechanism would show up as distinct clusters in Appendix 7 – Figure 1 E,F where we found no trace of such a change to happen. If we understand correctly, the Reviewer suggests a mechanism, not based on changes in the Nup layer density, that would lead to a varying amount of trapping of proteins close to the surface. Such a behavior should show up in the diffusion time of each pore ( Appendix 7 – figure 1 C,D), where we however find no trace of such an effect.

      7) Lines 493-498: These claims are actually not supported by the experimental data shown in this contribution: a) No direct comparison in terms of signal-to-noise ratio between fluorescence-based and conductance-based readouts has been provided in the ms. b) I would change the word multiplexed by simultaneous since it is highly misleading. c) The results shown are performed sequentially and thus low throughput. d) Finally, the use of unlabeled components is dubious since the detection schemes relies on fluorescence and thus requiring labeling.

      We thank the Reviewer for pointing this out.

      a) We have now added a section in appendix 3 that discusses the signal-to-noise ratios. In brief, there are three observations that led us to conclude that ZMWs provide beneficial capabilities to resolve individual events from the background:

      1. The signal-to-background ratio was determined to be 67±53 for our ZMW data of Kap95 which is an order of magnitude higher compared to the ~5.6 value for a conductance-based readout.

      2. The detection efficiency for ZMWs is independent of the Kap95 occupancy within the pore. This is different from conductance based approaches that have reduced capability to resolve individual Kap95 translocations at high concentrations.

      3. The fraction of detected translocations is much higher for ZMWs than for conductance-based data (where lots of translocations occur undetected) and matches closer to the theoretical predictions.

      b) We have changed the wording accordingly.

      c) We agree with the Reviewer that our method is still low throughput. However, the throughput is markedly increased compared to previous conductance-based nanopore measurements. This is because we can test many (here up to 8, but potentially many more) pores per chip in one experiment, whereas conductance-based readouts are limited to a single pore. We have now changed the wording to “increased throughput” in line 507 to avoid confusion.

      d) We agree that only labeled components can be studied directly with our methods. However, the effect of unlabeled analytes can be assessed indirectly without any perturbation of the detection scheme due to the specificity of the fluorescent labeling. This is distinct from previous nanopore approaches using a conductance-based readout that lack specificity. In our study, we have for example used this advantage of our approach to access event rates at high concentrations (1000nM Kap95, 500nM BSA) and large pore diameters by reducing the fraction of labeled analyte in the sample. Finally, the dependence of the BSA leakage rate as a function of the concentration of Kap95 (Figure 6) relies on a specific readout of BSA events in the presence of large amounts of Kap95, which would be impossible in conductance-based experiments.

      8) Line 769: specify the NA of the objective. Using a very long working distance would also affect the detection efficiency. Have the authors considered the NA of the objective on the simulations of the detection efficiency? This information should be included and it is important as the authors are detecting single molecule events.

      We used an NA of 1.1 for the simulation of the Gaussian excitation field in the FDTD simulations, corresponding to the NA of the objective lens used in the experiments and as specified in the methods. The Reviewer is correct that the NA also affects the absolute detection efficiency of the fluorescence signal due to the finite opening angle of the collection cone of ~56˚. In our evaluation of the simulations, we have neglected this effect for simplicity, because the finite collection efficiency of the objective lens represents only an additional constant factor that does not depend on the parameters of the simulated system, such as the pore diameter. Instead, we focused solely the effect of the ZMW and defined the detection efficiency purely based on the fraction of the signal that is emitted towards the detection side and can potentially be detected in the experiment, which also provides the benefit that the discussed numbers are independent of the experimental setup used.

      To clarify this, we have now made this clearer in the method text on lines 917-920.

      9) Line 831: I guess that 1160ps is a mistake, right?

      This is not a mistake. We performed a tail fit of the fluorescence decay curves, meaning that the initial rise of the decay was excluded from the fit. The initial part of the fluorescence decay is dominated by the instrument response function (IRF) of the system, with an approximate width of ~500 ps. To minimize the influence of the IRF on the tail fit, we excluded the first ~1 ns of the fluorescence decay.

      10) Lines 913-917: Why are the quantum yield of Alexa 488 and lifetime so much reduced as compared to the published values in literature?

      See answer to point 1. We have added a short discussion at lines 938-941 where we speculate that the reduced quantum yield is most likely caused by dye-dye interactions due to the high degree of labeling of ~6 dyes per protein.

      11) Lines 1503-1509: The predicted lifetimes with the Nsp-1 coating have not been shown in Appendix 2 - Figure 4. How have they been estimated?

      We have not performed predictions of fluorescence lifetimes in the presence of an Nsp1 coating. Predictions of the fluorescence lifetime in the absence of the Nsp1 coating were obtained by assuming a uniform occupancy of the molecules over the simulation box. A prediction of the fluorescence lifetimes in the presence of the Nsp1 coating would require a precise knowledge of the spatial distribution of analytes, which depends, among other factors, on the extension of the Nsp1 brushes and the interaction strengths with the FG repeats. While simulations provide some insights on this, we consider a quantitative comparison of predicted and measured fluorescence lifetimes in the presence of the Nsp1 coating beyond the scope of the present study.

      12) Lines 1534-1539: I disagree with this comment, since the measurements reported here have been performed outside the nano-holes, and thus the argument of Kap95 translocating along the edges of the pore and being responsible for the reduced lifetime does not make sense to me.

      In accordance with our answer to point 5 above, we have now changed the interpretation to the proximity of Kap95 to the metal surface on the exit side, rather than speculating on the path that the protein takes through the pore (lines 1662-1664), as follows:

      “This indicates that, in the presence of Nsp1, Kap95 molecules diffuse closer to or spend more time in proximity of the metal nanoaperture on the exit side.”

      Reviewer #2:

      (Numbers indicate the line number.)

      48: should cite more recent work: Timney et al. 2016 Popken et al 2015

      59: should cite Zilman et al 2007, Zilman et al 2010

      62: should cite Zilman et al 2010

      We thank the Reviewer for the suggestions and have added them to the manuscript now.

      65: one should be careful in making statements that the "slow" phase is immobile, as it likely rapidly exchanging NTRs with the "fast" phase.

      We have removed this description and replaced it by “This 'slow phase' exhibits a reduced mobility due to the high affinity of NTRs to the FG-Nup mesh.” to avoid misunderstanding.

      67: Schleicher 2014 does not provide evidence of dedicated channels

      We agree with the Reviewer and therefore moved the reference to an earlier position in the sentence.

      74-75: must cite work by Lusk & Lin et al on origami nanochannels

      We thank the Reviewer for this suggestion. We have now added a reference to the nanotraps of Shen et al. 2021, JACS, in line 75. In addition, we now also refer to Shen et al. 2023, NSMB, in the discussion where viral transport is discussed.

      77: Probably Jovanovic- Talisman (2009)?

      We thank the Reviewer for pointing out this typo.

      93; should cite Auger&Montel et al, PRL 2014

      We thank the Reviewer for pointing out this reference. To give proper credit to previous ZMW, we have now incorporated a sentence in lines 100-102 citing this reference.

      111-112: there appears to be some internal inconsistency between this interpretation and the BSA transport mostly taking place through the "central hole" (as seems to be implied by Equation (3). Probably it should be specified explicitly that the "central hole" in large channels is a "void".

      We thank the Reviewer for this suggestion and have added a clarifying sentence.

      115-177: This competition was studied in Jovanovic-Talisman 2009 and theoretically analysed in Zilman et al Plos Comp Biol 2010. The differences in the results and the interpretation should be discussed.

      We agree, therefore it is discussed in the discussion section (around line 594) and now added the reference to Zilman et al.

      Figure 2 Caption: "A constant flow..." - is it clear that is flow does not generate hydrodynamic flow through the pore?

      The Reviewer raises an important point. Indeed, the pressure difference over the membrane generates a hydrodynamic flow through the pore that leads to a reduction of the event rate compared to when no pressure is applied. However, as all experiments were performed under identical pressures, one can expect a proportional reduction of the absolute event rates due to the hydrodynamic flow against the concentration gradient. In other words, this will not affect the conclusions drawn on the selectivity, as it is defined as a ratio of event rates.

      We have now added additional data on the influence of the hydrodynamic flow on the translocation rate in Appendix 3 – Figure 2, where we have measured the signal of free fluorophores at high concentration on the exit side of the pore as a function of the applied pressure. The data show a linear dependence of the signal reduction on the applied pressure. At the pressure values used for the experiments of 50 mbar, we see a ~5% reduction compared to the absence of pressure, implying that the reported absolute event rates are underestimated only by ~5%. Additionally we have added such data for Kap95 translocations that shows a similar effect (however less consistent). Measuring the event rate at zero flow is difficult, since this leads to an accumulation of fluorophores on the detection side.

      Figure 3: it would help to add how long is each translocation, and what is the lower detection limit. A short explanation of why the method detects actual translocations would be good

      With our method, unfortunately, we can not assess the duration of a translocation event since we only see the particle as it exists the pore. Instead, the measured event duration is determined by the time it takes for the particle to diffuse out of the laser focus. This is confirmed by FCS analysis of translocation events that show the same order of magnitude of diffusion times as for free diffusion (Appendix 7 – Figure 1 C,D) in contrast to a massively reduced diffusion time within a nanopore. In Figure 2D we show the detection efficiency at different locations around the ZMW as obtained from FDTD simulations and discuss the light blocking. This clearly shows that the big majority of the fluorescence signal comes from the laser illuminated side and therefore only particles that translocated through the ZMW are detected as presented between lines 170-190. In Yang et al. 2023, bioRxiv (https://doi.org/10.1101/2023.06.26.546504) a more detailed discussion about the optical properties of Pd nanopores is given.

      This point also explains why we see actual translocations: since the light is blocked by the ZMW, fluorophores can only be detected after they have translocated. On parts of the membrane without pores and upstream the amount of spikes found in a timetrace was found to be negligibly small. Additionally, if a significant part of the signal would be contributed by leaking fluorescence from the dark top side, there should no difference in BSA event rate found between small open and Nsp1 pores which we did not observe.

      With respect to the lower detection limit for events: In the burst search algorithm we require a false positive level rate of lower than 1 event in 100. Additionally, as described in Klughammer and Dekker, Nanotechnology (2021), we apply an empirical filtering to remove low signal to noise ratio events that contain less than 5 detected photons per event or a too low event rate. From the event detection algorithm there is no lower limit set on the duration of an event. Such a limit is then set by the instrument and the maximum frequency it which it can detect photons. This time is below 1μs. Practically we don’t find events shorter than 10μs as can be seen in the distribution of events where also the detection limits can be estimated (Appendix 7 – figure 1 A and B.)

      Equation (1): this is true only for passive diffusion without interactions (see eg Hoogenboom et al Physics Reports 2021 for review). Using it for pores with interactions would predict, for instance, that the inhibition of the BSA translocation comes from the decrease in D which is not correct.

      We agree with the Reviewer that this equation would not reproduce the measured data in a numerically correct way. We included it to justify why we subsequently fit a quadratic function to the data. As we write in line 260 we only used the quadratic equation “as a guide to the eye and for numerical comparison” and specifically don’t claim that this fully describes the translocation process. In this quadratic function, we introduced a scaling factor α that can be fitted to the data and thus incorporates deviations from the model. In appendix 5 we added a more elaborate way to fit the data including a confinement-based reduction of the diffusion coefficient (although not incorporating interactions). Given the variations of the measured translocation rates, the data is equally well described by both the simple and the more complex model function.

      Equation (1): This is not entirely exact, because the concentration at the entrance to the pore is lower than the bulk concentration, which might introduce corrections

      We agree with the Reviewer and have added that the concentration difference Δc is measured at the pore entrance and exit, and this may be lower than the bulk concentration. As described in our reaction to the Reviewer’s previous comment, equation (1) only serves as a justification to use the quadratic dependence and any deviations in Δc are absorbed into the prefactor α in equation (2).

      Equation (3): I don't understand how this is consistent with the further discussion of BSA translocation. Clearly BSA can translocate through the pore even if the crossection is covered by the FG nups (through the "voids" presumably?).

      The Reviewer raises an important point here. Equation 3 can only be used for a pore radius r > rprot + b. b was determined to be 11.5 nm and rprot is 3.4 nm for BSA, thus it needs to be that r > 15 nm. We would like to stress, however, that b does not directly give a height of a rigid Nsp1 ring but is related to the configuration of the Nsp1 inside the pore. Equation (3) (and equation (2)) were chosen because even these simple equations could fit the experimentally measured translocation rates well, and not because they would accurately model the setup in the pore. As we found from the simulations, the BSA translocations at low pore diameters presumably happen through transient openings of the mesh. The dynamics leading to the stochastic opening of voids on average leads to the observed translocation rate.

      296-297: is it also consistent with the simulations?

      We compare the experimentally and simulated b values in lines 387-388 and obtained b=9.9 ± 0.1 nm from the simulations (as obtained from fitting the translocation rates and not from measuring the extension of the Nsp1 molecules) and 11.5 ± 0.4 nm from the experiments – which we find in good agreement.

      331: has it been established that the FG nups equilibrate on the microsecond scale?

      As an example, we have analyzed the simulation trajectory of the most dense nanopore (diameter = 40 nm, grafting = 1/200 nm2). In Author response image 1 we show for each of the Nsp1-proteins how the radius of gyration (Rg) changes in time over the full trajectory (2 μs + 5 μs). As expected, the Rg values reached the average equilibrium values very well within 2 μs simulation time, showing that the FG-Nups indeed equilibrate on the (sub)microsecond scale.

      Author response image 1.

      334-347: the details of the method should be explained explicitly in the supplementary (how exactly voids distributions are estimated and the PMF are calculated etc)

      The void analysis was performed with the software obtained from the paper of Winogradoff et al. In our Methods we provide an overview of how this software calculates the void probability maps and how these are converted into PMFs. For a more detailed description of how exactly the analysis algorithm is implemented in the software, we refer the reader to the original work. The analysis codes with the input files that were used in this manuscript have been made public ( https://doi.org/10.4121/22059227.v1 ) along with the manuscript.

      Equation (4) is only an approximation (which works fine for high barriers but not the low ones). Please provide citations/derivation.

      To our knowledge, the Arrhenius relation is a valid approximation for our nanopore simulations. We are unaware of the fact that it should not work for low barriers and cannot find mention of this in the literature. It would be helpful if the Reviewer can point us to relevant literature.

      Figure 4: how was transport rate for Kaps calculated?

      As mentioned in lines 388-391, we assumed that the Kap95 translocation rate through Nsp1-coated pores is equal to that for open pores, as we did not observe any significant hindrance of Kap95 translocation by the Nsp1 mesh in the experiment (Figure 4 A,C).

      378: It's a bit strange to present the selectivity ratio as prediction of the model when only BSA translocation rate was simulated (indirectly).

      We agree with the Reviewer that ideally we should also simulate the Kap95 translocation rate to obtain an accurate selectivity measure of the simulated nanopores. However, as the experiments showed very similar Kap95 translocation rates for open pores and Nsp1-coated pores, we believe it is reasonable to take the Kap95 rates for open and Nsp1-pores to be equal.

      Figure 5C and lines 397: I am a bit confused how is this consistent with Figure 4D?

      Figure 5C and figure 4D both display the same experimental data, where 4D only focuses on a low diameter regime. In relation to line 397 (now 407), the Nsp1 mesh within the 60-nm pore dynamically switches between closed configurations and configurations with an open channel. When taking the temporal average of these configurations, we find that the translocation rate is higher than for a closed pore but lower than for a fully open pore. The stochastic opening and closing of the Nup mesh results in the continuous increase of the translocation rates with increasing diameter, which is in contrast to a step-wise increase that would be expected from an instantaneous collapse of the Nsp1 mesh at a certain pore diameter.

      428-439: Please discuss the differences from Jovanovic-Talisman 2009.

      How our results for a Kap95 induced change of the BSA translocation rate are related to previous literature is discussed extensively in the lines 598-620.

      440: How many Kaps are in the pore at different concentrations?

      This is a very interesting question that we were, unfortunately, not able to answer within the scope of this project. With our fluorescent based methods we could not determine this number because the excitation light does not reach well into the nanopore.

      In our previous work on Nsp1-coated SiN nanopores using conductance measurements, we quantified the drop in conductance at increasing concentrations of Kap95 (Fragasso et al., 2023, NanoResearch, http://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s12274-022-4647-1). From this, we estimated that on average ~20 Kap95 molecules are present in a pore with a diameter of 55 nm at a bulk concentration of 2 µM. In these experiments, however, the height of the pore was only ~20 nm, which is much lower compared to 100 nm long channel used here, and the grafting density of 1 per 21 nm2 was high compared to the grafting density here of 1 per 300 nm2. Assuming that the Kap95 occupancy scales linearly with the number of binding sites (FG repeats) in the vicinity of the pore, and hence the amount of Nsp1 molecules bound to the pore, we would expect approximately ~7 Kap95 molecules in a pore of similar diameter under saturating (> 1 µM) concentrations.

      On the other hand, the simulations showed that the density of Nsp1 within the pore is equal to the density within the 20-nm thick SiN pores (line 380). For the longer channel and lower grafting density used here, Nsp1 was also more constrained to the pore compared to thinner pores used in previous studies (Fragasso et al., 2023, NanoResearch), where the grafted protein spilled out from the nanopores. Thus assuming that the Kap95 occupancy depends on the protein density in the pore volume rather than the total protein amount grafted to the pore walls, we would estimate a number of 100 Kap95 molecules per pore.

      These varying numbers already show that we cannot accurately provide an estimate of the Kap95 occupancy within the pore from our data due to limitations of the ZMW approach.

      445: how is this related to the BSA translocation increase?

      For the calculation of the selectivity ratio, we assumed the normalized Kap95 translocation rate to be independent of the Kap95 concentration. Hence, the observed trends of the selectivity ratios at different concentrations of Kap95, as shown in Figure 6 D, are solely due to a change in the BSA translocation rate at different concentrations of Kap95, as given in Figure 6 B,C.

      462-481: it's a bit confusing how this interfaces with the "void" analysis ( see my previous comments)

      We agree that the phenomenological descriptions in terms of transient openings (small, dynamic voids) that for larger pores become a constantly opened channel (a single large, static void) might cause some confusion to the reader. In the last part of the results, we aimed to relate the loss of the BSA rate to a change of the Nsp1 mesh. We acknowledge that the model of a rim of Nsp1 and an open center described in Figure 5F is highly simplifying . We now explain this in the revised paper at lines 483-486 by referring to an effective layer thickness which holds true under the simplifying assumption of a central transport channel.

      Figure 6D: I think the illustration of the effect of kaps on the brush is somewhat misleading: at low pore diameters, it is possible that the opposite happens: the kaps concentrate the polymers towards the center of the pore. It should be also made clear that there are no kaps in simulations (if I understand correctly?)

      Indeed, at small pore diameters we think it would be possible to observe what the Reviewer describes. The illustration should only indicate what we think is happening for large pore diameters where we observed the opening of a central channel. To avoid confusion, we now shifted the sketches to panel G where the effective layer thickness is discussed.

      Indeed, as stated in lines 331-340 no Kap95 or BSA molecules were present in the simulations. We have now clarified this point in lines 872-876.

      518: Please provide more explanation on the role of hydrodynamics pressure.

      We have now performed additional experiments and quantified the effect of the pressure to be a ~5% reduction of the event rates, as described in the answer to a previous question above.  

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      No experiments have been performed with the Ran-Mix regeneration system. It would be beneficial to add Ran-Mix to the trans compartment and see how this would affect Kap95 translocation events frequency and passive cargo diffusion. As the authors note in their outlook, this setup offers an advantage in using Ran-Mix and thus could also be considered here or in a future follow-up study.

      We thank the Reviewer for this suggestion. We think, however, that it is beyond the scope of this paper and an interesting subject for a follow-up study.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This study and associated data is compelling, novel, important, and well-carried out. The study demonstrates a novel finding that different chemotherapeutic agents can induce nucleolar stress, which manifests with varying cellular and molecular characteristics. The study also proposes a mechanism for how a novel type of nucleolar stress driven by CDK inhibitors may be regulated. The study sheds light on the importance of nucleolar stress in defining the on-target and offtarget effects of chemotherapy in normal and cancer cells.

      We are thankful to the reviewers and the editor for their feedback and thorough assessment of our work. Our responses to the comments and suggestions are below.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The study titled "Distinct states of nucleolar stress induced by anti-cancer drugs" by Potapova and colleagues demonstrates that different chemotherapeutic agents can induce nucleolar stress, which manifests with varying cellular and molecular characteristics. The study also proposes a mechanism for how a novel type of nucleolar stress driven by CDK inhibitors may be regulated. As a reviewer, I appreciate the unbiased screening approach and I am enthusiastic about the novel insights into cell biology and the implications for cancer research and treatment. The study has several significant strengths: i) it highlights the understudied role of nucleolar stress in the on- and off-target effects of chemotherapy; ii) it defines novel molecular and cellular characteristics of the different types of nucleolar stress phenotypes; iii) it proposes novel modes of action for well-known drugs. However, there are several important points that should be addressed:

      • The rationale behind choosing RPE cells for the screen is unclear. It might be more informative to use cancer cells to study the effects of chemotherapeutic agents. Alternatively, were RPE cells selected to evaluate the side effects of these agents on normal cells? Clarifying these points in the introduction and discussion would guide the reader.

      RPE1, a non-cancer-derived cell line, was chosen for this study to evaluate the effects of anticancer drugs on normal nucleolar function, with the underlying premise that nucleolar stress in normal cells can contribute to non-specific toxicity. This clarification is added to the introduction. Another factor that played in selecting a normal cell line for the drug screen and subsequent experiments was the spectrum of known and unknown genetic and metabolic alterations present in various cancer cell lines. These variables are often unique to a particular cancer cell line and may or may not impact nucleolar proteome and function. Therefore, the nucleolar stress response can be influenced by the spectrum of alterations inherent to each cancer. Our primary focus was to determine the impact of these drugs under normal conditions.

      That said, the selected hits of main drug classes were validated in a panel of cell lines that included two other hTERT lines (BJ5TA and CHON-002) and two cancer lines (DLD1 and HCT116). In cancer cells starting nucleolar normality scores were lower than in hTERT cells, suggesting that genetic and metabolic changes in these cells may indeed affect nucleolar morphology. Nonetheless, all drugs from a panel of selected hits from different target classes validated in both cancer cell lines (Fig. 2F).

      • Figure 2F indicates that DLD1 and HCT116 cells are less sensitive to nucleolar changes induced by several inhibitors, including CDK inhibitors. It would be crucial to correlate these differences with cell viability. Are these differences due to cell-type sensitivity or variations in intracellular drug levels? Assessing cell viability and intracellular drug concentration for the same drugs and cells would provide valuable insights.

      One of the reasons for the reduced magnitude of the effects of selected drugs in DLD1 and HCT116 cells is their lower baseline normality scores compared to hTERT cells (now shown in Sup. Fig. 1B-C). Other potential factors include proteomic and metabolic shifts and alterations in signaling pathways that control ribosome production. The less-likely possibility of variations in intracellular drug levels cannot be excluded, but measuring this for every compound in every cell line was not feasible in this study. These limitations are now noted in the results section.

      Regarding the point about viability - our initial screen output, in addition to normality scores, included cell count (cumulative count of cells in all imaged fields), which serves as a proxy for viability. By this measure, all hit compounds in our screen were cytostatic or cytotoxic in RPE1 cells (Fig. 2C). The impact of these drugs on the viability of cancer cells that can have various degrees of addiction to ribosome biogenesis merits a separate study of a large cancer cell line panel.

      • Have the authors interpreted nucleolar stress as the primary cause of cell death induced by these drugs? When cells treated with CDK inhibitors exhibit the dissociated nucleoli phenotype, is this effect reversible? Is this phenotype indicative of cell death commitment? Conducting a washout experiment to measure the recovery of nucleolar function and cell viability would address these questions.

      Whether nucleolar toxicity is the primary cause of cytotoxicity for a given chemotherapy drug is an incisive and thought-provoking question. Our screen did not discern whether the cytotoxic effects of our hits were due to inhibition of their intended targets, their impact on the nucleolus, or a combined effect. This point is now mentioned in the results section. Regarding the reversibility of the nucleolar disassembly phenotype seen in CDK inhibitors –in the case of flavopiridol, which is a reversible CDK inhibitor, we demonstrated that nucleoli re-assembled within 4-6 hours after the drug was washed out. An example of this is shown in Sup. Figure 3 and in Video 5. For these experiments, cells were pretreated with the drug for 5 hours, not long enough to cause cell death.

      • The correlation between the loss of Treacle phosphorylation and nucleolar stress upon CDK inhibition is intriguing. However, it remains unclear how these two events are related. Would Treacle knockdown yield the same nucleolar phenotype as CDK inhibition? Moreover, would point mutations that abolish Treacle phosphorylation prevent its interaction with Pol-I? Experiments addressing these questions would enhance our understanding of the correlation/causation between Treacle phosphorylation and the effects of CDK inhibition on nucleolar stress.

      We agree that the Treacle finding is interesting and warrants further investigation. In our attempts to knock down Treacle with siRNA, its protein levels were reduced by no more than 50%, which was not sufficient to cause a strong nucleolar stress response. Therefore, these data were not incorporated into the manuscript. However, in our view, Treacle is unlikely to be the only nucleolar CDK substrate whose dephosphorylation is causing the “bare scaffold” phenotype caused by the transcriptional CDK inhibitors. Our phospho-proteomics studies identified multiple nucleolar CDK substrates with established roles in the formation of the nucleolus. For instance, the granular component protein Ki-67 was also dephosphorylated on multiple sites and dispersed throughout the nucleus (shown in Sup. Fig 4). Given that CDKs typically phosphorylate many substrates that can have multiple phosphorylation sites, identifying a sole protein or phosphorylation site responsible for nucleolar disassembly may be an unattainable target.

      Overall, this study is significant and novel as it sheds light on the importance of nucleolar stress in defining the on-target and off-target effects of chemotherapy in normal and cancer cells.

      Thank you, we appreciate the positive and constructive assessment of our study.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      This is an interesting study with high-quality imaging and quantitative data. The authors devise a robust quantitative parameter that is easily applicable to any experimental system. The drug screen data can potentially be helpful to the wider community studying nucleolar architecture and the effects of chemotherapy drugs. Additionally, the authors find Treacle phosphorylation as a potential link between CDK9 inhibition, rDNA transcription, and nucleolar stress. Therefore I think this would be of broad interest to researchers studying transcription, CDKs, nucleolus, and chemotherapy drug mechanisms. However, the study has several weaknesses in its current form as outlined below.

      1) Overall the study seems to suffer from a lack of focus. At first, it feels like a descriptive study aimed at characterizing the effect of chemotherapy drugs on the nucleolar state. But then the authors dive into the mechanism of CDK inhibition and then suddenly switch to studying biophysical properties of nucleolus using NPM1. Figure 6 does not enhance the story in any way; on the contrary, the findings from Fig. 6 are inconclusive and therefore could lead to some confusion.

      This study was specifically designed to examine a broad range of chemotherapy drugs. The newly created nucleolar normality score enabled us to measure nucleolar stress precisely and in high throughput. Our primary objective was to find drugs that disrupt the normal nucleolar morphology and then study in-depth the most interesting and novel hits. We have made revisions to emphasize that these are the primary focal points of the manuscript.

      As context, we were motivated to explore the biophysical properties of the nucleolus because they are thought to underlie its formation and function, which also suggested a potential predictive value for modeling nucleolar responses to drug treatments. For this, we edited the RPE1 cell line by endogenously tagging NPM1, a granular component protein that behaves in line with the phase-separation paradigm in vitro and when over-expressed. We fully expected to confirm that its behavior in vivo would be consistent with LLPS, but instead found that even in an untreated scenario, the dynamics of endogenous NPM1 could not be fully explained by the phase separation theory (Fig. 6 A-C). Our message is that accurately predicting drug responses using the nucleolar normality score as a readout, based on our current understanding of the biophysical forces governing nucleolar assembly, is unworkable. For instance, normality scores decrease and NPM1 dynamics increase radically when CDKs are inhibited, without changes in NPM1 concentration or concentrations of other protein components (Fig.6 E-H). These observations are important because they highlight our gaps in understanding the relative contribution of phase separation versus active assembly in nucleolar formation. We believe that these observations are worth sharing with the scientific community.

      2) The justification for pursuing CDK inhibitors is not clear. Some of the top hits in the screen were mTOR, PI3K, HSP90, Topoisomerases, but the authors fail to properly justify why they chose CDKi over other inhibitors.

      We decided to focus on CDK inhibitors for several reasons. First, their effects were completely new and unexpected, suggesting the existence of an unknown mechanism regulating nucleolar structure and function. In addition, CDK inhibitors caused a very strong and distinct nucleolar stress phenotype with the lowest normality scores that merited its own term, the “bare scaffold” phenotype. One more reason for pursuing CDK-inhibiting drugs was their high rate of failure in clinics because of the intense and hard-to-explain toxicity. We suspect that this toxicity may be due at least in part to their profound effect on nucleolar organization and ribosome production throughout the body. We stated this rationale more explicitly in the manuscript.

      3) In addition to poor justification, it seems like a very superficial attempt at deciphering the mechanism of CDK9imediated nucleolar stress. I think the most interesting part of the study is the link between CDK9, Pol I transcription, and nucleolar stress. But the data presented is not entirely convincing. There are several important controls missing as detailed below.

      We agree with the reviewer that follow-up studies of CDK9, Pol I, and nucleolar stress connection are important long-term goals. However, the primary objective of this study was to ascertain the scope of anticancer agents that can cause nucleolar stress and the establishment of nucleolar stress categories. This is an important advance and could serve as the foundation for a standalone in-depth study or multiple studies. We have included the complete screen, proteomics, and phospho-proteomics results (Sup. Tables 1, 2, and 3), which will enable other investigators to mine the screen information based on their specific interests. Furthermore, we have made multiple text revisions to clarify rationale and interpretation, and incorporated additional data that strengthen the manuscript.

      4) The authors did not test if inhibition of CDK7 and/or CDK12 also induces nucleolar stress. CDK7 and CDK12 are also major kinases of RNAPII CTD, just like CDK9. Importantly, there are well-established inhibitors against both these kinases. It is not clear from the text whether these inhibitors were included in the screen library.

      Our anticancer compound library contained CDK7 inhibitor THZ1⦁2HCL, and it was a hit at both 1 and 10 uM concentrations (Sup. Table 1). However, its nucleolar stress phenotype was morphologically distinct from CDK9 inhibitors, resembling the stress caps phenotype instead of the bare scaffold phenotype. We did not pursue CDK7 because of its two hard-to-separate functions: in addition to its role as an RNAPII CTD kinase, it also acts as a CDK-activating kinase (CAK) by promoting the associations of multiple CDKs with their cyclin partners. This dual role of CDK7 makes the interpretation of THZ1-induced nucleolar stress phenotype difficult because it could be attributed to either or both of these functions. Moreover, it was reported to cause DNA damage, which may explain why it causes stress caps. An image depicting nucleolar stress phenotype caused by THZ1⦁2HCL is provided in Author response image 1.

      Author response image 1.

      Control and THZ1 - treated RPE1 cells, images from screen plates.

      We are not aware of specific inhibitors of CDK12, as they also reportedly inhibit CDK13. None of the CDK12/CDK13 inhibitors were present in our library, therefore we can neither confirm nor exclude the possible involvement of these kinases in regulating nucleolar structure. Many other existing CDK inhibitors were absent from our library. Our work highlights the importance of assessing their potential to induce nucleolar stress and offers an approach for this assessment.

      5) In Figure 4E, the authors show that Pol I is reduced in nucleolus/on rDNA. The authors should include an orthogonal method like chromatin fractionation and/or ChIP

      We acknowledge the reviewer’s request for additional validation of reduced occupancy of rDNA by Pol I.<br /> Nucleolar chromatin fractionation in cells treated with CDK inhibitors is unlikely to work due to nearly complete nucleolar disassembly. Chromatin immunoprecipitation would require finding and validating a suitable ChIP-grade antibody. Moreover, the evaluation of repetitive regions by ChIP is non-trivial and error-prone. To help address this request and further confirm the POLR1A immunofluorescence results in 4E, we included additional immunofluorescence data obtained with a different POLR1A antibody (Sup. Fig. 3D), and the results were similar.

      6) In Fig. 5D, in vitro kinase lacks important controls. The authors should include S to A mutants of Treacle S1299A/S1301A to demonstrate that CDK9 phosphorylates these two residues specifically.

      7) To support their model, the authors should test if overexpression of Treacle mutants S1299A/S1301A can partially phenocopy the nucleolar stress seen upon CDK9 inhibition. This would considerably strengthen the author's claim that reduced Treacle phosphorylation leads to Pol I disassociation from rDNA and consequently leads to nucleolar stress.

      8) Additionally, it would be interesting if S1299D/S1301D mutants could partially rescue CDK9 inhibition.

      Points (6-8):

      We reiterate that transcriptional CDKs target multiple nucleolar proteins, and the observed phenotype might be due to the combined effects of de-phosphorylation of multiple substrates. We concur that deconstructing the role of Treacle phosphorylation sites is very interesting and warrants further in-depth studies. The phospho-proteomics enrichment method, while an effective first-pass strategy, might not capture 100% of the phosphorylated sites. Treacle is a phospho-protein with an abundance of serine and threonine residues. It could potentially have been selectively dephosphorylated on more sites than were detected by this method. Therefore, the suggested mutations may not be the exclusive contributors responsible for the functional phenotype. Additionally, overexpressing Treacle impairs the viability of RPE1 cells, complicating the interpretation of experiments involving overexpression of both wild-type and mutant proteins. A conceivable strategy would involve generating phosphomimetic and non-phosphorylatable mutants by gene editing, studying their interactions by biochemical approaches, and determining their impact on nucleolar function, but this may take years of additional work. We hope that our work will inspire further studies that explore Treacle phosphorylation and other functions of transcriptional CDKs in nucleolar formation.

      Thank you for the thoughtful review and suggestions.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      1) The manuscript could be re-organized to focus on 'CDK9-Treacle-Pol I-nucleolar stress' as the central part of the story.

      While we acknowledge this suggestion, it's important to emphasize that the primary focus of this manuscript is on the identification of anticancer drugs that induce nucleolar stress and the establishment of nucleolar stress categories.

      2) Include a "no ATP" control in the in vitro kinase assay and indicate molecular sizes.

      We provided an additional kinase assay (Sup. Fig. 4B) that includes no ATP control lanes and a fragment of a Coomassie blue stained gel showing molecular weight markers. No ATP control assays (lanes 4 and 5) were blank as expected. Molecular weight markers were added to all other kinase assays based on the known sizes of isolated Pol II holoenzyme subunits Rbp1 (191 kDa) and Rbp2 (138 kDa).

      3) For in vitro phosphorylation, please provide an explanation for using CDK9/cyclin K instead of Cyclin T1 which is the predominant cyclin for CDK9

      Recombinant CDK9/cyclin K complex was used for in vitro kinase assays for a technical reason: CDK9/cyclin T obtained from the same vendor appeared to be low quality, as it showed only minimal activity toward our positive control, the isolated Pol II complex. The kinase assays using recombinant CDK9/cyclin T in parallel with CDK9/cyclin K are now presented it Sup. Fig. 4B. The first two assays in this experiment contained Pol II as a substrate, and it is evident that Pol II was phosphorylated much stronger by CDK9/cyclin K than CDK9/cyclin T (comparing lane 1 vs lane 2). Therefore, the lack of detectable Treacle phosphorylation by CDK9/Cyclin T (lane 7), in contrast to strong phosphorylation by CDK9/cyclin K (lane 6), was likely attributable to poor reagent quality rather than physiological differences. We can conclude that CDK9/cyclin K reliably phosphorylates Treacle in vitro, but CDK9/cyclin T kinase assays were inconclusive.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This important study presents a novel pipeline for the large-scale genomic prediction of members of the non-ribosomal peptide group of pyoverdines based on a dataset from nearly 2000 Pseudomonas genomes. The advance presented in this study is largely based on solid evidence, although some main claims are only incompletely supported. This study on bacterial siderophores has broad theoretical and practical implications beyond a singular subfield.

      Thank you for the supportive and encouraging words. We appreciate the editor’s and reviewers’ careful and professional assessment of this manuscript. The reviewers’ scrutiny has helped us to improve the presentation and discussion of our work. We have now carefully revised the manuscript following their instructive suggestions and comments. Please find below our detailed responses (marked in blue) to each of the comments.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The manuscript introduces a bioinformatic pipeline designed to enhance the structure prediction of pyoverdines, revealing an extensive and previously overlooked diversity in siderophores and receptors. Utilizing a combination of feature sequence and phylogenetic approaches, the method aims to address the challenging task of predicting structures based on dispersed gene clusters, particularly relevant for pyoverdines.

      Predicting structures based on gene clusters is still challenging, especially pyoverdines as the gene clusters are often spread to different locations in the genome. An improved method would indeed be highly useful, and the diversity of pyoverdine gene clusters and receptors identified is impressive.

      However, so far the method basically aligns the structural genes and domains involved in pyoverdine biosynthesis and then predicts A domain specificity to predict the encoded compounds. Both methods are not particularly new as they are included in other tools such as PRISM (10.1093/nar/gkx320) or Sandpuma (https://doi.org/10.1093/bioinformatics/btx400) among others. The study claims superiority in A domain prediction compared to existing tools, yet the support is currently limited, relying on a comparison solely with AntiSMASH. A more extensive and systematic comparison with other tools is needed.  

      Thanks for pointing this out. In the revised manuscript, we have included a comprehensive comparative analysis, in which we compared our pipeline to six different commonly used methods, including NP.searcher, PRISM4, AdenPredictor, SeMPI2, SANDPUMA, antiSMASH5 (see Supplementary_table 6 for details, and lines 281-286). These approaches either consist of a single specific algorithm or integrate several methods. Our approach performs best (see table below), demonstrating a clear improvement over previous tool. The improvements are due to several methodological differences inherent to our approach. Additionally, while exploring existing prediction tools, we found that some had not been maintained for years. For instance, we were unable to access NRPSsp (www.nrpssp.com) and NRPSpredictor2 (http://nrps.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/). Below, we briefly explain these differences, particularly in relation to PRISM and SANDPUMA, as highlighted by the reviewer. 

      Author response table 1.

      PRISM annotates biosynthetic gene clusters (BGC) and reconstructs the linear structures of NRPS synthetases, with this function depending on proper annotations of open reading frames. This pipeline can have difficulties in assembling the linear structure into a final product. In our approach, we found that the annotations of NRPS gene are frequently truncated because of sequencing errors and annotation issues. Our method fixes this problem through rescanning all possible reading frames of the BGC to rebuild complete pyoverdine synthetase genes. 

      Sandpum and our approach are based on similar ideas (using the prediCAT algorithm) to predict A domain substrates, namely by using the closest reference A domain annotated. However, our method uses a self-adaptive feature extraction step to reduce the co-founding influence of phylogeny. This small adjustment significantly improves the performance of our approach and even works well for small training sets (101 experimentally validated A domains with our approach as opposed to 494 A domains used by Sandpuma from MIBiG).

      Additionally, in contradiction to the authors' claims, the method's applicability seems constrained to well-known and widely distributed gene clusters. The absence of predictions for new amino acids raises concerns about its generalizability to NRPS beyond the studied cases.

      We thank the reviewers for this comment. We acknowledge that our method cannot directly predict new amino acids. Nevertheless, for several reasons we believe that our approach is not constrained and can be widely applied in the future.

      First, our method can identify A domains that select new unknown amino acid substrates. In fact, three of the four unresolved cases in our experimental verification analysis (Fig. 3d) represent new amino acids. Obviously, experimental verification is required to characterize the unknown substrate. Once verified, the new A domains and their substrates can expand the reference dataset, allowing targeted improvement of our phylogeny-focused prediction technique. We now discuss this aspect in lines 634-645.

      Second, despite that the overall substrate diversity in NRPS is high across the microbial kingdom, our analysis suggests that the number of amino acids used for a specific group of secondary metabolites quickly reaches a saturation point. The discovery rate of new amino acids was 1.7% for our experimental Pseudomonas data set (Fig. 3d). The discovery rate of new amino acids was even 0.0 % for the Burkholderiales data set. This suggests that as the database expands, the discovery rate of novel amino acid substrates is expected to drop rapidly.

      Third, we acknowledge that the inability to predict the substrates of unknown domains is a common limitation among all knowledge-guided learning algorithms, including ours. However, we have made significant improvements in prediction accuracy. As the database grows, we expect the rate of unknown substrates to decrease, and the prediction accuracy to increase.

      The manuscript lacks clarity on how the alignment of structural genes operates when dealing with multiple NRPS gene clusters on different genome contigs. How would the alignment of each BGC work?

      We thank the reviewers for this comment. The pyoverdine molecules consist of a conserved fluorescent chromophore (Flu) and a peptide chain (Pep), both synthesized by NRPS enzymes. In most instances (over 90%), Flu and Pep are produced by two separate biosynthetic gene clusters (BGCs). In these cases, we merge the two BGCs by positioning Flu at the head and Pep at the tail. For the remaining less than 10%, there are two scenarios: 1. Flu and Pep are located on the same BGC, which eliminates any issues with BGC alignment. 2. In very rare cases, Flu and Pep are synthesized by three BGCs. Here, Flu is still synthesized by one BGC at the head, while Pep is produced by two BGCs. We put the BGC containing the Thioesterase (TE) domain as the tail and the BGC not containing the TE domain in the middle.

      (see lines 165-169).

      Another critical concern is that a main challenge in NRPS structure prediction is not the backbone prediction but rather the prediction of tailoring reactions, which is not addressed in the manuscript at all, and this limitation extensively restricts the applicability of the method.

      While we thank the reviewer for this comment, we only partly agree with it. Peptide backbone predictions are still a significant challenge. This challenge is clearly visible in our new analysis comparing prediction accuracies of different pipelines, such as antiSMASH5, PRISM4, AdenPredictor, SeMPI2, NP.searcher, Sandpuma. Unresolved and wrong substrate predictions are still common, highlighting the importance of our contribution in developing a new approach with improved high accuracy. 

      However, we agree with the reviewer that our current algorithm does not predict tailoring reactions (now discussed on lines 680-685). Although tailoring reactions are important for predicting the final NRPS product structure, none of the other existing pipelines address this issue either, and it remains a challenge for future work. For our study, it is important to note that the specificity of pyoverdines is primarily determined by the backbone composition, whereas tailoring reactions seem to play a minor role.

      The manuscript presents a potentially highly useful bioinformatic pipeline for pyoverdine structure prediction, showcasing a commendable exploration of siderophore diversity. However, some of the claims made remain unsubstantiated. Overall, while the study holds promise, further validation and refinement are required to fulfill its potential impact on the field of bioinformatic structure prediction.

      Thank you for the supportive and encouraging words. We deeply appreciate your constructive comments and suggestions. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Pyoverdines, siderophores produced by many Pseudomonads, are one of the most diverse groups of specialized metabolites and are frequently used as model systems. Thousands of Pseudomonas genomes are available, but large-scale analyses of pyoverdines are hampered by the biosynthetic gene clusters (BGCs) being spread across multiple genomic loci and existing tools' inability to accurately predict amino acid substrates of the biosynthetic adenylation (A) domains. The authors present a bioinformatics pipeline that identifies pyoverdine BGCs and predicts the A domain substrates with high accuracy. They tackled a second challenging problem by developing an algorithm to differentiate between outer membrane receptor selectivity for pyoverdines versus other siderophores and substrates. The authors applied their dataset to thousands of Pseudomonas strains, producing the first comprehensive overview of pyoverdines and their receptors and predicting many new structural variants.

      The A domain substrate prediction is impressive, including the correction of entries in the MIBiG database. Their high accuracy came from a relatively small training dataset of A domains from 13 pyoverdine BGCs. The authors acknowledge that this small dataset does not include all substrates, and correctly point out that new sequence/structure pairs can be added to the training set to refine the prediction algorithm. 

      The authors could have been more comprehensive in finding their training set data. For instance, the authors claim that histidine "had not been previously documented in pyoverdines", but the sequenced strain P. entomophila L48, incorporates His (10.1007/s10534-009-9247-y). 

      Thank you for highlighting this issue. We agree that stating histidine has not been reported before in pyoverdine was incorrect. We have reviewed the full text and made the necessary corrections.

      The primary reason for excluding the sequenced strains P. syringae 1448a (10.1186/14712180-11-218) and P. entomophila L48 (10.1007/s10534-009-9247-y) from the training set is that the pyoverdine structures of these strains were not determined solely through experimental methods. In these works, the pyoverdine structures were predicted based on the synthetic gene sequence using bioinformatical analysis, followed by structural analysis experiments based on this predicted structure. We found that pre-prediction probably has introduced biases into downstream analyses. Specifically, in the case of Pseudomonas entomophila L48, we discovered inaccuracies in the annotation of certain domains (see figures below). For example, the third A domain of the peptide chain in P. entomophila L48 pyoverdine was initially annotated with Dab specificity. However, upon closer examination, it appears to differ significantly from other Dab references (top) or Dab from our experimentally validated (right) domains (left panel in the figure below). By analyzing the interface (I) domain (10.1073/pnas.1903161116) in its predicted site, we suggested that it should actually recognize OHHis. The OHAsp domain of P. entomophila L48 reported in the paper is actually close in sequence similarity to the OHAsp domain (left panel in the figure below), while the Ala domain reported is more similar to the Ser domain (right panel in the figure below). For these reasons, we did not include this supervised pyoverdine structure analysis strain in the training set data.

      Author response image 1.

      The workflow cannot differentiate between different variants of Asp and OHOrn, and it's not clear if this is a limitation of the workflow, the training data, or both. 

      Thanks for pointing this out. It is generally challenging to differentiate between variants of the same amino acid (for all the algorithms existing to date). In this sense, it is a limitation of our but also of all other workflows. Nonetheless, we wish to stress that we observed feature sequence divergence (using the A motif4-5 region), which helped us to separate some (but not all) of the Asp and Orn variants. For example, separations between Asp-variants are distinct (left panel in the figure below). To be on the conservative side, we only differentiated between OHAsp and Asp for our predictions, but also differentiation between DOHAsp and OHAsp would be possible. In the case of Orn-variants, there was a clear separation between Orn and the OHOrn variants (right panel). In contrast, it was difficult to differentiate between the subgroups of OHOrn variants. We believe that no A domain prediction tool will be able to solve this issue. Instead, it would be important to include information on substrate-modifying enzymes in future approaches.

      Author response image 2.

      The prediction workflow holds up well in Burkholderiales A domains, however, they fail to mention in the main text that they achieved these numbers by adding more A domains to their training set.

      We thank the reviewers for this comment. We apologize for not having mentioned the training data set in the main text, while we described it in detail in the methods section (lines 714-732). We now provided more details on the analysis procedure in the main text (lines 307313). Important to note is that we did not add more A domains to the training data set but built up a new independent data set for Burkholderiales. The aim was to mirror the analysis we performed for pyoverdines with a completely new data set, featuring 124 A domains for training and 178 A domains as test set.

      To validate their predictions, they elucidated structures of several new pyoverdines, and their predictions performed well. However, the authors did not include their MS/MS data, making it impossible to validate their structures. In general, the biggest limitation of the submitted manuscript is the near-empty methods section, which does not include any experimental details for the 20 strains or details of the annotation pipeline (such as "Phydist" and "Syndist"). The source code also does not contain the requisite information to replicate the results or re-use the pipeline, such as the antiSMASH version and required flags. That said, skimming through the source code and data (kindly provided upon request) suggests that the workflow itself is sound and a clear improvement over existing tools for pyoverdine BGC annotation.

      Thank you for highlighting these issues. We agree that the methods section is short. This is because the entire paper is a step-by-step methodological introduction to our pipeline. We have now carefully revised the main text to add the information requested by the reviewer. Moreover, we have included a supplementary file with the MS/MS data of the experimentally analyzed pyoverdine structures. Finally, we further include a link to a one-click online notebook that can be used to replicate the annotation and substrate prediction results See: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1JsfyPUGDTFo8BDDZk8JLSvKry8emzMhr?usp=drive_ link , following a more detail explanation on code.

      Predicting outer membrane receptor specificity is likewise a challenging problem and the authors have made a promising achievement by finding specific gene regions that differentiate the pyoverdine receptor FpvA from FpvB and other receptor families. Their predictions were not tested experimentally, but the finding that only predicted FpvA receptors were proximate to the biosynthesis genes lends credence to the predictive power of the workflow. The authors find predicted pyoverdine receptors across an impressive 468 genera, an exciting finding for expanding the role of pyoverdines as public goods beyond Pseudomonas. However, whether or not these receptors can recognize pyoverdines (and if so, which structures!) remains to be investigated.

      Thank you for the supportive and encouraging words. The bioinformatic analysis and experimental testing of pyoverdine-receptor matching is complicated and it is not part of this paper. We treated it in a separate manuscript in which we developed an experimentally verified co-evolution algorithm that matches pyoverdines to receptors. With this algorithm, we can identify self-receptors (i.e. receptors used to take up the self-produced pyoverdine), and therefore establish pyoverdine sharing and interaction networks across strains in communities.

      Please see DOI:10.1101/2023.11.05.565711 for details.

      In all, the authors have assembled a rich dataset that will enable large-scale comparative genomic analyses. This dataset could be used by a variety of researchers, including those studying natural product evolution, public good eco/evo dynamics, and NRPS engineering.

      Thank you for the supportive and encouraging words. We are grateful for the reviewers’ instructive suggestions and comments.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Secondary metabolites are produced by numerous microorganisms and have important ecological functions. A major problem is that neither the function of a secondary metabolite enzyme nor the resulting metabolite can be precisely predicted from gene sequence data.

      In the current paper, the authors addressed this highly relevant question.

      The authors developed a bioinformatic pipeline to reconstruct the complete secondary metabolism pathway of pyoverdines, a class of iron-scavenging siderophores produced by Pseudomonas spp. These secondary metabolites are biosynthesized by a series of nonribosomal peptide synthetases and require a specific receptor (FpvA) for uptake. The authors combined knowledge-guided learning with phylogeny-based methods to predict with high accuracy encoding NRPSs, substrate specificity of A domains, pyoverdine derivatives, and receptors. After validation, the authors tested their pipeline with sequence data from 1664 phylogenetically distinct Pseudomonas strains and were able to determine 18,292 enzymatic A domains involved in pyoverdine synthesis, reliably predicted 97.8% of their substrates, identified 188 different pyoverdine molecule structures and 4547 FpvA receptor variants belonging to 94 distinct groups. All the results and predictions were clearly superior to predictions that are based on antiSMASH. Novel pyoverdine structures were elucidated experimentally by UHPLC-HR-MS/MS.

      To assess the extendibility of the pipeline, the authors chose Burkholderiales as a test case which led to the results that the pipeline consistently maintains high prediction accuracy within Burkholderiales of 83% which was higher than for antiSMASH (67%).

      Together, the authors concluded that supervised learning based on a few known compounds produced by species from the same genus probably outperforms generalized prediction algorithms trained on many products from a diverse set of microbes for NRPS substrate predictions. As a result, they also show that both pyoverdine and receptor diversity have been vastly underestimated.

      Strengths:

      The authors developed a very useful bioinformatic pipeline with high accuracy for secondary metabolites, at least for pyoverdines. The pipelines have several advantages compared to existing pipelines like the extensively used antiSMASH program, e.g. it can be applied to draft genomes, shows reduced erroneous gene predictions, etc. The accuracy was impressively demonstrated by the discovery of novel pyoverdines whose structures were experimentally substantiated by UHPLC-HR-MS/MS.

      The manuscript is very well written, and the data and the description of the generation of pipelines are easy to follow.

      Weaknesses:

      The only major comment I have is the uncertainty of whether the pipeline can be applied to more complex non-ribosomal peptides. In the current study, the authors only applied their pipeline to a very narrow field, i.e., pyoverdines of Pseudomonas and Burkholderia strains.

      Thanks for your positive and encouraging comment. Regarding your only major comment, we think that the design concept of our pipeline has the potential to be applied to more complex non-ribosomal peptides. Currently, our method is tailored to accurately predict the structural composition of the Pseudomonas siderophore pyoverdine (see also response 3). A key point emphasized in our article is the importance of considering phylogeny in developing substrate prediction algorithms for A domains. Currently, the main challenge in advancing these algorithms is the limited availability of data on A domains and their corresponding substrates. However, with the future accumulation of more reference data, we are confident that the design principles of our method will enable precise predictions of the structural compositions of all products synthesized by non-ribosomal peptide synthetases (see our discussions in lines 634-

      645). 

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I believe that the manuscript would benefit from focusing solely on the task of improving pyoverdine predictions. This aspect alone is significant, and robustly supporting this claim would strengthen the manuscript. The diversity analysis provided is valuable and would undoubtedly benefit the scientific community. However, additional systematic comparisons with other methods are necessary. Furthermore, clarification of certain terms, such as 'featurebased' (e.g., whether it refers to NRPS domains or CDS), would enhance clarity.

      Thank you for the supportive and encouraging words. We followed the reviewer’s suggestion and now provide the requested method comparison, see also response 2 for details. Furthermore, we have carefully checked the main text to clarify terms whenever needed. Specifically, we now define the terms “feature sequence” and “feature sequence distance” in lines 227-229.  

      Additionally, several minor points could be improved upon:

      In line 85, clarification is needed on how pyoverdine genes were identified.

      Thank you for your thorough review. In the introduction section, we provided a brief overview of our work, while the detailed methodology is outlined in the results section on lines 160-174.

      In line 382, it would be helpful to know the source of the sequences.

      We agree and have now carefully revised the manuscript following your suggestions (lines 403-405).

      Line 392 could be explained more clearly. Does it mean that the authors used an hmm search to search pHMMs against each reference sequence?

      Thanks for your comment. Yes, we used an hmm search to search pHMMs against each reference sequence. We have now revised the manuscript to improve explanations (lines 413-418).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The authors state they "elucidated the chemical structure of the 20 pyoverdines using culturebased methods combined with UHPLC-HR-MS/MS", so I was alarmed to see that KR and LB already published several of those structures in the cited paper. I hope that this "double dipping" will be fixed in a revision process.

      Thank you for pointing this out. We agree that we have not explained clearly enough what steps were conducted in this study and which data were used from a previous paper (https://doi.org/10.1007/s00216-022-03907-w). The genomes of the 20 strains used for the verification analysis (Fig. 3d) were sequenced as part of this study (access code now provided). 14 out of the 20 pyoverdine structures were elucidated with UHPLC-HR-MS/MS in this study. For 6 out of the 20 pyoverdines, we had structural information already at hand from the previous paper. We have now clarified these details in our manuscript (lines 276-280). 

      Thank you for providing the source code and data, and I hope that the final non-redundant dataset will be uploaded to Zenodo or another repository. Please deposit the 20 newlysequenced genomes to GenBank or another public repository. Please also show the UHPLC-

      HR-MS/MS data, preferably in the form of raw data uploaded to GNPS.

      We have followed the reviewer’s advice and deposited our data:

      - The sequences of the 20 newly sequenced strains are available on ENA accession PRJEB76792.

      - The MS/MS plots of the 14 newly analyzed pyoverdines are shown in the Supplementary Materials.

      - We provide a one-click online notebook to allow readers to replicate the pyoverdine cluster annotation and substrate prediction of the 20 experimentally analyzed strains.

      I suggest adding "at least" or a similar qualifier when the 73 variants are mentioned unless the literature search was truly exhaustive. What were the criteria for inclusion of the 13 strains in Table S2? For instance, sequenced strains P. syringae 1448a (10.1186/1471-2180-11-218) and P. entomophila L48 (10.1007/s10534-009-9247-y) were not included.

      Thank you for your comment. We have now carefully revised the manuscript following your suggestions (lines 291-295). Regarding the criteria for including the 13 strains in Table S2, we aimed to select strains with the high credibility for inclusion in the training set data. The primary reason for excluding the two strains from the training set is that their siderophore structures were analyzed through supervised experiments. We wanted to avoid any form of biases that bioinformatic pre-predictions could introduce to downstream analyses (see Response 13 for details).

      OHAsp in pyoverdines has been reported to arise from hydroxylation of Asp after it's already been activated by the A domain (10.1073/pnas.1903161116). Was there a clear difference between A domains that lead to Asp and OHAsp? Conversely, acetylation and formylation of OHOrn occur before adenylation. Can your workflow be used to differentiate cOHOrn, fOHOrn, and AcOHOrn, which are currently difficult to predict through genome mining?

      Thank you for these considerations. We treated these aspects in our response 8.  

      Throughout, define non-proteinogenic AA substrate abbreviations (ex: Rsc, Dab).

      Revised as per suggestion (lines 329-333).

      Additional line comments:

      189: Mention PhyloPhlAn in the main text.

      Revised as per suggestion (lines 189).

      191: Define these filtering/selection criteria.

      Thanks for your comment, we have added the criteria in the main text (line 196 and line 198). 

      309, 620: An A domain presumably loading histidine is present in sequenced strain P. entomophila L48 (10.1007/s10534-009-9247-y). Please also clarify that Val has previously been seen in a pyoverdine (it is in Table S1) albeit not sequenced.

      We have clarified these aspects as per suggestion (lines 314-315 and line 630).

      310: The pipeline can "highlight" new substrates, but not identify them.

      Revised as per suggestion (line 295).

      354: Please clarify "13 amino acid substrates form the core of all the 188 pyoverdine structures", considering that 279 A domain substrates couldn't be predicted.

      Thanks for your comments. We have now clarified “our analysis found that 13 amino acids form the main structural substrates of all the 188 pyoverdine structures.” (lines

      360-363)

      630: "discovered" implies that there is experimental evidence. I suggest something like "here we predicted 151 putatively new variants".

      Revised as per suggestion (line 648).

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Weakness:

      The only major comment I have is the uncertainty of whether the pipeline can be applied to more complex non-ribosomal peptides. In the current study, the authors only applied their pipeline to a very narrow field, i.e., pyoverdines of Pseudomonas and Burkholderia strains

      Thanks for your comment. Please see our Responses 3+13 above, where we treat this concern in detail. Moreover, we discussed the possibility of extension to other groups of secondary metabolites in our discussion. We believe that we deliver a balanced view on the applicability of our approach and the next steps to be taken.  

      Please comment on this aspect.

      Minor:

      (1)  When you speak about "synthesis" it is rather biosynthesis. Synthesis is chemical synthesis.

      Please replace all instances of the word synthesis with biosynthesis.

      Revised as per suggestion.

      (2)  Line 188: synthetase is rather synthetases

      Revised as per suggestion (line 191).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1:

      Point 1: While the manuscript is methodologically sound, the following aspects of image acquisition and data analysis need to be clarified to ensure replicability and reproducibility. The authors state that the sample is a "population-derived adult lifespan sample", the lack of demographic information makes it impossible to know if the sample is truly representative. Though this may seem inconsequential, education may impact both cognitive performance and functional activation patterns. Moreover, the authors do not report race/ethnicity in the manuscript. This information is essential to ensure representativeness in the sample. It is imperative that barriers to study participation within minoritized groups are addressed to ensure rigor and reproducibility of findings.

      First, the section Methods-Participants has been updated to refer readers to a prior article where the sample’s demographics are broken down into nine decile age groups (see Wu et al. 2023 Table 1), including information about their education levels. Secondly, we have updated the Data Availability section text to indicate that all Cam-CAN IDs are included in the available OSF datasets, allowing anyone to verify additional participant demographics described in the Cam-CAN protocol article (Shafto et al., 2014). Third, we have updated the Participants section text to refer to another prior study that reported on the representativeness of the Cam-CAN sample indicating that at least some elements of the sample have been independently deemed as representative (e.g., Sex).

      Page-24

      “A healthy population-derived adult lifespan human sample (N = 223; ages approximately uniformly distributed from 19 - 87 years; females = 112; 50.2%) was collected as part of the Cam-CAN study (Stage 3 cohort; Shafto et al., 2014). Participants were fluent English speakers in good physical and mental health, based on the Cam-CAN cohort’s exclusion criteria which includes poor mini mental state examination, ineligibility for MRI and medical, psychiatric, hearing or visual problems. Throughout analyses, age is defined at the Home Interview (Stage 1; Shafto et al., 2014). The study was approved by the Cambridgeshire 2 (now East of England–Cambridge Central) Research Ethics Committee and participants provided informed written consent. Further demographic information of the sample is reported in Wu et al. (2023) and is openly available (see section Data Availability) with a recent report indicating the representativeness of the sample across sexes (Green et al., 2018).”

      Page-30

      “Raw and minimally pre-processed MRI (i.e., from automatic analysis; Taylor et al., 2017) and behavioural data are available by submitting a data request to Cam-CAN (https://camcan-archive.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk/dataaccess/). The univariate and multivariate ROI data, and behavioural data, can be downloaded from the Open Science Framework, which includes Cam-CAN participant identifiers allowing the retrieval of any additional demographic data (https://osf.io/v7kmh), while the analysis code is available on GitHub.”

      Point 2: For the whole-brain analysis in which the ROIs were derived, the authors used a threshold-free cluster enhancement (TFCE; Smith & Nichols 2009). The methodological paper cited suggests that individuals' TCFE image should still be corrected for multiple comparisons using the following: "to correct for multiple comparisons, one [...] has to build up the null distribution (across permutations of the input data) of the maximum (across voxels) TFCE score, and then test the actual TFCE image against that. Once the 95th percentile in the null distribution is found then the TFCE image is simply thresholded at this level to give inference at the p < 0.05 (corrected) level." (Smith & Nichols, 2009). Although the authors mention that clusters were estimated using 2000 permutations, there is no mention of the TFCE image itself being thresholded. While this would impact the overall size of the ROIs used in the study, the remaining analyses are methodologically sound.

      We have updated the text to detail the t=1.97 (i.e., p = .05) threshold we applied before interpretation of the resultant TFCE images to the section: Experimental Design & Statistical Analysis. This threshold value can also be verified in the analytics code that is referenced on GitHub from the section Data Availability within the requisite toolbox functions: https://github.com/kamentsvetanov/CommonalityAnalysis/blob/main/code/ca_vba_tfce_threshold.m#L24 and https://github.com/kamentsvetanov/CommonalityAnalysis/blob/main/code/external/ca_matlab_tfce_transform.m

      Page-30

      “For whole-brain voxelwise analyses, clusters were estimated using threshold-free cluster enhancement (TFCE; Smith & Nichols 2009) with 2000 permutations and the resulting images were thresholded at a t-statistic of 1.97 before interpretation.”

      Point 3: The authors should consider moving the ROI section to results. The way the manuscript currently reads, the ROIs seem to be derived a priori as opposed to being derived from activation maps in the current study.

      After consideration of this point, we have decided to leave the methodological details regarding the definition of ROIs in the methods, to maintain the focus of the Results section. However, we have improved signposting in the results section to highlight that the ROIs were derived from the overlapped activation maps.

      Page-8

      “Crucially, two areas of the brain showed spatially-overlapping positive effects of age and performance, which is suggestive of an age-related compensatory response (Figure 2A yellow intersection). These were in bilateral cuneal cortex (Figure 2B magenta) and bilateral frontal cortex (Figure 2B brown), the latter incorporating parts of the middle frontal gyri and anterior cingulate. Therefore, based on traditional univariate analyses, these are two candidate regions for age-related functional compensation (Cabeza et al. 2013; 2018). Accordingly, we defined regions of interest within these two regions using the overlap activation maps (see section: ROIs) to be used for subsequent univariate and multivariate analysis.”

      Point 4: The manuscript can be strengthened by explaining why the authors chose a greedy search algorithm over a dynamic Bayesian model.

      The text is updated to refer to appropriateness of the computationally efficient greedy search implementation, due to the size of the fMRI cohort dataset.

      Page-28

      “The pattern weights specifying the mapping of data features to the target variable are optimized with a greedy search algorithm using a standard variational scheme (Friston et al., 2007) which was particularly appropriate given the large dataset.”

      Reviewer #2:

      Point 1: However, it might have been nice to see an analysis of a more crystallised intelligence task included too, as a contrast since this is an area that does not demonstrate such a decline (and perhaps continues to improve over aging).

      We (Samu et al., 2017) have previously investigated, but failed to find, univariate evidence for functional compensation in this cohort’s performance on a sentence comprehension task that is more closely aligned to a measure of crystallised intelligence. Based on the additional previous studies where we have applied these types of univariate and multivariate criteria of functional compensation (Morcom & Henson, 2018; Knights et al., 2021), we have consistently observed that the uni-/multivariate effects are in the same direction. Therefore, we would not initially expect a different conclusion here, where the univariate and multivariate effects suggest different outcomes. Notably, the univariate analysis approach in Samu et al. (2017) did differ from focusing on the age x behaviour interaction term here, so it could still be worth future investigation, but it does seem less likely that evidence of compensation would be observed than for fluid intelligence. However, as the Reviewer suggests, such a task may make another good contrast to show evidence against the existence of functional compensation (as in Morcom & Henson, 2018; Knights et al., 2021).

      Point 2: Figure 1B: Consider adding coefficients describing relationships to plots.

      Annotations of the coefficients have been added to Figure 1B:

      Point 3: Figure 2C. The scale of the axis for RSFA-Scales cuneal cortex ROI activations should be the same as the other 3 plots.

      Figure axes are updated such that ROIs are on matching scales, according to whether data were RSFA-scaled or not.

      Point 4: Figure 2C. Adding in the age ranges for each of the three groups following the tertile split may be informative to the reader.

      The age group tertile definition used for Figure 2C visualisations is now added to the Figure description.

      Page-10

      “Figure 2. Univariate analysis. (A) Whole-brain effects of age and performance. Age (green) and performance (red) positively predicted unique aspects of increased task activation, with their spatial overlap (yellow) being overlaid on a template MNI brain, using p < 0.05 TFCE. (B) Intersection ROIs. A bilateral cuneal (magenta) and frontal cortex (brown) ROI were defined from voxels that showed a positive and unique effect of both age and performance (yellow map in Figure 2A). (C) ROI Activation. Activation (raw = left; RSFA-scaled = right) is plotted against behavioural performance based on a tertile split between three age groups (19-44, 45-63 & 64-87 years).”

      Reviewer #3:

      Point 1: [Public Review] 1) I don't quite follow the argumentation that compensatory recruitment would need to show via non-redundant information carried by any given non-MDN region (cf. p14). Wouldn't the fact that a non-MDN region carries task-related information be sufficient to infer that it is involved in the task and, if activated increasingly with increasing age, that its stronger recruitment reflects compensation, rather than inefficiency or dedifferentiation? Put differently, wouldn't "more of the same" in an additional region suffice to qualify as compensation, as compared to the "additional information in an additional region" requirement set by the authors? As a consequence, in my honest opinion, showing that decoding task difficulty from non-MDN ROIs works better with higher age would already count as evidence for compensation, rather than asking for age-related increases in decoding boosts obtained from adding such ROIs. It would be interesting to see whether the arguably redundant frontal ROI would satisfy this less demanding criterion. At any rate, it seems useful to show whether the difference in log evidence for the real vs. shuffled models is also related to age.

      We agree with the logic for conducting a weaker assessment of functional compensation whereby a brain region does not necessarily have to provide a unique contribution beyond that of the ordinarily activated task-relevant network. However, although non-unique recruitment is predicted by a compensation theory, it can also be explained by a nonspecific mechanism that recruits multiple regions in tandem. In contrast, unique additional recruitment is compatible with compensation but not with nonspecific recruitment. In this article, and those prior (Morcom & Henson, 2018; Knights et al. 2021), we have also deliberately avoided using the specific kind of analysis proposed (i.e., testing for an effect of age on differential log evidence) because these would involve applying statistical tests directly to the log evidence, a variable that is already a statistical test output.

      Nevertheless, temporarily putting these caveats aside, we did run the suggested test. Results from multiple regression showed that using log evidence from frontal cortex models still did not meet this less demanding criterion for functional compensation as there was an effect of age in the opposite direction to that expected by functional compensation: there was a significant negative effect of age (t(218) = -7.95, p = < .001) indicating that as age increased, the difference in log evidence decreased. This effect is visualised below for transparency, but we preferred not to add this information to the article because we do not wish to encourage using this kind of analysis for the reason mentioned above. Thus, although our main multivariate test of interest is stringent, the additional step of mapping log evidence back to the boost-likelihood categories (e.g., boost vs. no difference to model performance) lends itself to the more appropriate logistic regression statistical approach.

      Author response image 1.

      Negative effect of age on MVB log evidence model outcomes for frontal cortex.

      A different approach that could be taken to assess a more lenient definition of functional compensation would be to analyse the effects of age on the spread of multivariate responses predicting task difficulty (i.e., standard deviation of fitted MVB voxel weights; also see Morcom & Henson, 2018; Knights et al., 2021) specifically from models that only include the candidate ‘compensation’ ROIs.

      Accordingly, these analyses and their discussion have been added to the article. To summarise, these analyses showed that (1) the frontal cortex still did not show evidence of functional compensation (i.e., a negative effect of age like in Morcom & Henson, 2018) and (2) no effect of age on the cuneal ROI, implying that the original model comparison approach (i.e., Figure 2C in the manuscript now) can provide more sensitivity for detecting evidence of functional compensation (perhaps because of the importance of including task-relevant network responses when building decoding models).

      Page-15

      “As a final analysis, we also tested a more lenient definition of functional compensation, whereby the multivariate contribution from the “compensation ROI” does not necessarily need to be above and beyond that of the task-relevant network (Morcom & Henson, 2018; Knights et al., 2021). To do this, we again assessed whether age was associated with an increase in the spread (standard deviation) of the weights over voxels, for smaller models containing only the cuneal or frontal ROI. This tested whether increased age led to more voxels carrying substantial information about task difficulty, a pattern predicted by functional compensation (but also consistent with non-specific additional recruitment). In this case, the results of this test did not support functional compensation, as there was no effect detected for the cuneal cortex and even a negative effect of age for the frontal cortex where the spread of the information across voxels was lower for older age (Figure 3C; Table 2).”

      Page-21

      “The age- and performance-related activation in our frontal region satisfied the traditional univariate criteria for functional compensation, but our multivariate (MVB) model comparison analysis showed that additional multivariate information beyond that in the MDN was absent in this region, which is inconsistent with the strongest definition of compensation. In fact, the results from the spread analysis showed that as age increased, this frontal area processed less, rather than more, multivariate information about the cognitive outcome (Figure 3C) as previously observed in two (memory) tasks for a comparable ROI within the same Cam-CAN cohort (Morcom & Henson, 2018).”

      Page-24

      “This said, univariate criteria for functional compensation will continue to play a role in hypothesis testing. For instance, the over-additive interaction observed in the cuneal cortex - where the increase in activity with better performance is more pronounced in older adults - offers stronger evidence of compensation compared to the simple additive effect of age and performance observed in the frontal cortex (Figure 2C). So far, the two studies that have combined these rigorous univariate, behavioral and multivariate approaches to assess functional compensation (i.e., Knights et al., 2021; the present study) have generally found converging evidence regardless of the method used. However, it is important to note that the MVB approach uniquely shifts the focus from individual differences to the specific task-related information that compensatory neural activations are assumed to carry and provides a specific test of region- (or network-) unique information. With further studies, it may also be that multivariate approaches prove more sensitive for detecting compensation effects than when using mean responses over voxels (e.g., Friston et al., 1995) particularly since over-additive effects are challenging to observe because compensatory effects are typically ‘partial’ and do not fully restore function (for review see Scheller et al., 2014; Morcom & Johnson, 2015). Within the multivariate analysis options themselves, it is also interesting to highlight that the stringent MVB boost likelihood analysis could detect functional compensation unlike the more lenient analysis focusing on the spread of MVB voxel weights. This suggests the importance of including task-relevant network responses when building decoding models to assess compensation.”

      Page-32

      “Alongside the MVB boost analysis, we also included an additional measure using the spread (standard deviation) of voxel classification weights (Morcom & Henson, 2018). This measure indexes the absolute amplitude of voxel contributions to the task, reflecting the degree to which multiple voxels carry substantial task-related information. When related to age this can serve as a multivariate index of information distribution, unlike univariate analyses. However, it is worth highlighting that even if an ROI shows an effect of age on this spread measure, such an effect could instead be explained by a non-specific mechanism that represents the same information in tandem across multiple regions (rather than reflecting compensation) as seen previously (Knights et al., 2021; also see Morcom & Johnson, 2015). Thus, it is the MVB boost analysis that is the most compelling assessment of functional compensation because it can directly detect novel information representation.”

      Point 2: [Public Review] 2) Relatedly, does the observed boost in decoding by adding the cuneal ROI (in older adults) really reflect "additional, non-redundant" information carried by this ROI? Or could it be that this boost is just a statistical phenomenon that is obtained because the cuneus just happens to show a more clear-cut, less noisy difference in hard vs. easy task activation patterns than does the MDN (which itself may suffer from increased neural inefficiency in older age), and thus the cuneaus improves decoding performance without containing additional (novel) pieces of information (but just more reliable ones)? If so, the compensation account could still be maintained by reference to the less demanding rationale for what constitutes compensation laid out above.

      We agree that this is a possibility and have added this as an additional explanation to the Discussion. We have also discussed why we think it is a less likely possibility, but do concede that it cannot be ruled out currently.

      Page-20

      “Another possibility is that the age-related increases in fMRI activations (for hard versus easy) in one or both of our ROIs do not reflect greater fMRI signal for hard problems in older than younger people, but rather lower fMRI signal for easy problems in the older. Without a third baseline condition, we cannot distinguish these two possibilities in our data. However, a reduced “baseline” level of fMRI signal (e.g., for easy problems) in older people is consistent with other studies showing an age-related decline in baseline perfusion levels, coupled with preserved capacity of cerebrovascular reactivity to meet metabolic demands of neuronal activity at higher cognitive load  (Calautti et al., 2001; Jennings et al., 2005). Though age-related decline in baseline perfusion occurs in the cuneal cortex (Tsvetanov et al., 2021), the brain regions showing modulation of behaviourally-relevant Cattell fMRI activity by perfusion levels did not include the cuneal cortex (Wu et al., 2023). This suggests that the compensatory effects in the cuneus are unlikely to be explained by age-related hypo-perfusion, consistent with the minimal effect here of adjusting for RSFA (Figure 2C).

      One final possibility is whether the observed boost in decoding from adding the cuneal ROI simply reflects less noisy task-related information (i.e., a better signal-to-noise ratio (SNR)) than the MDN and, consequently, the boosted decoding is the result of more resilient patterns of information (rather than the representation of additional information) based on a steeper age-related decline of SNR in the MDN. Overall then, as none of the explanations above agree with all aspects of the results, to functionally explain the role of the cuneal cortex in this task would require further investigation.”

      Point 3: [Public Review] 3) On page 21, the authors state that "...traditional univariate criteria alone are not sufficient for identifying functional compensation." To me, this conclusion is quite bold as I'd think that this depends on the unvariate criterion used. For instance, it could be argued that compensation should be more clearly indicated by an over additive interaction as observed for the relationship of cuneal activity with age and performance (i.e., the activity increase with better performance becomes stronger with age), rather than by an additive effect of age and performance as observed for the prefrontal ROI (see Fig. 2C). In any case, I'd appreciate it if the authors discussed this issue and the relationship between univariate and multivariate results in more detail (e.g. how many differences in sensitivity between the two approaches have contributed), in particular since the sophisticated multivariate approach used here is not widely established in the field yet.

      We have now considered this point further in a section of the Discussion (which is merged with points 1 & 2 above) about the relevance and distinction of univariate / multivariate criteria for functional compensation. As described in text below, whilst we agree that univariate / behavioural approaches have a role in testing functional compensation, we still view the MVB boost analysis to be a particularly compelling approach for assessing this theory.

      Page-22

      “This said, univariate criteria for functional compensation will continue to play a role in hypothesis testing. For instance, the over-additive interaction observed in the cuneal cortex - where the increase in activity with better performance is more pronounced in older adults - offers evidence of compensation compared to the simple additive effect of age and performance observed in the frontal cortex (Figure 2C). However, the conclusions that can be drawn from age-related differences in cross-sectional associations of brain and behaviour are limited, mainly because individual performance differences are largely lifespan-stable (see Lindenberger et al., 2011; Morcom & Johnson, 2015). So far, the two studies that have combined these univariate-behavioral and multivariate approaches to assess functional compensation (i.e., Knights et al., 2021; the present study) have generally found converging evidence regardless of the method used. However, it is important to note that the MVB approach uniquely shifts the focus from individual differences to the specific task-related information that compensatory neural activations are assumed to carry. With further studies, it may also be that multivariate approaches prove more sensitive for detecting compensation effects than when using mean responses over voxels (e.g., Friston et al., 1995) particularly since over-additive effects are challenging to observe because compensatory effects are typically ‘partial’ and do not fully restore function. Within the multivariate analysis options themselves, it is also interesting to highlight that the stringent MVB boost likelihood analysis could detect functional compensation unlike the more lenient analysis focusing on the spread of MVB voxel weights. This suggests the importance of including task-relevant network responses when building decoding models to asses compensation.”

      Point 4: [Public Review] 4) As to the exclusion of poorly performing participants (see p24): If only based on the absolute number of errors, wouldn't you miss those who worked (overly) slowly but made few errors (possibly because of adjusting their speed-accuracy tradeoff)? Wouldn't it be reasonable to define a criterion based on the same performance measure (correct - incorrect) as used in the main behavioural analyses?

      This is a good point, though if we were to exclude participants using a chance level exclusion rate based on the formulae used for measuring behavioural performance, this removes identical subjects to those originally excluded. Based on this, the text has been updated to reflect this more parsimonious approach for defining exclusion criteria.

      Page-25

      “In a block design, participants completed eight 30-second blocks which contained a series of puzzles from one of two difficulty levels (i.e., four hard and four easy blocks completed in an alternating block order; Figure 1A). The fixed block time allowed participants to attempt as many trials as possible. Therefore, to balance speed and accuracy, behavioural performance was measured by subtracting the number of incorrect from correct trials and averaging over the hard and easy blocks independently (i.e., ((hard correct - hard incorrect) + (easy correct - easy incorrect))/2; Samu et al., 2017). For assessing reliability and validity, behavioural performance (total number of puzzles correct) was also collected from the same participants during a full version of the Cattell task (Scale 2 Form A) administered outside the scanner at Stage 2 of the Cam-CAN study (Shafto et al., 2014). Both the in- and out-of-scanner measures were z-scored. We excluded participants (N = 28; 17 females) who performed at chance level ((correct + incorrect) / incorrect < 0.5) on the fMRI task, leading to the same subset as reported in Samu et al. (2017).”

      Point 5: [Public Review] 5) Did the authors consider testing for negative relationships between performance and brain activity, given that there is some literature arguing that neural efficiency (i.e. less activation) is the hallmark of high intelligence (i.e. high performance levels in the Cattell task)? If that were true, at least for some regions, the set of ROIs putatively carrying task-related information could be expanded beyond that examined here. If no such regions were found, it would provide some evidence bearing on the neural efficiency hypothesis.

      No, we did not test for negative relationships between performance and brain activity in this study. However, In Wu et al. (2023) we did specifically test for this and neither of the relevant results reported in section 3.3.1 (i.e., unique relationship between activity and performance) nor section 3.3.2 (i.e., age-related relationship between activity and performance) showed the queried direction of effects. Note that the negative effect in section 3.3.2 (Age U Performance) is a more unique suppression effect representing a positive relationship between performance and activity where this becomes stronger as age is added to the model.

      Point 6: [Recommendations for the authors] 1) Page 26: It is not quite clear how the authors made sure their age and performance covariates functioned as independent regressors in the univariate group-level GLM, given the correlation between age and performance (i.e. shared variance).

      We included age and performance as covariates (of the age x performance effect of interest) by simply including these as independent regressors in the group-level GLM design matrix in addition to the interaction term (i.e., activity ~ age*performance + covariates equivalent to activity ~ age:performance + age + performance + covariates; Wilkinson & Roger 1973 notation), allowing us to examine the unique variance explained by each predictor (Table 1 and Table 2) and to control for their shared variance.

      We should note that while the GLM approach we used accounts for unique and shared effects, it does not explicitly report shared effects in its standard output. To directly examine shared variance, one would need to employ commonality analysis. For reference, results from a commonality analysis on this task have been previously reported in Wu et al. (2023).

      Prompted by this point, we have made some further minor improvements to help ensure our methodological steps are reproducible, as highlighted below.

      Page-30

      “Continuous age and behavioural performance variables were standardised and treated as linear predictors in multiple regression throughout the behavioural (Figure 1B), wholebrain voxelwise (Figure 1C/2A), univariate (Table 1; Figure 1B/2B) and MVB (Table 2; Figure 3) analyses. Throughout, sex was included as a covariate. The models, including interaction terms, can be described, according to Wilkinson & Roger’s (1973) notation, as activity ~ age * performance + covariates (which is equivalent to activity ~ age:performance + age + performance + covariates), allowing us to examine the unique variance explained by each predictor (Table 1) and to control for their shared variance. For whole-brain voxelwise analyses, clusters were estimated using threshold-free cluster enhancement (TFCE; Smith & Nichols 2009) with 2000 permutations and the resulting images were thresholded at a t-statistic of 1.97 before interpretation. Bonferroni correction was applied to a standard alpha = 0.05 based on the two ROIs (cuneal and frontal) that were examined. For Bayes Factors, interpretation criteria norms were drawn from Jarosz & Wiley (2014).”

      Point 7: [Recommendations for the authors] 2) Figure 3: I suggest changing the subheading in panel B to "Joint vs. MDN-only Model," in line with the wording in the main text.

      The subheading of Figure 3B is updated as suggested to `Joint vs. MDN-only Model`.

      Point 8: [Recommendations for the authors] 3) In Figures 1C and 2A, MNI z coordinates should be added to the section views. The appreciation of Figure 2B could be enhanced by adding some rendering with a saggital (medial and/or lateral) view.

      The slice mosaics in Figure 1C and 2A are now updated with each slice’s MNI Z coordinates and mentioned in the figure descriptions.

      Point 9: [Recommendations for the authors] 4) Page 7 (l. 135): What exactly is meant by "lateral occipital temporal cortex"?

      The text is updated to specify the anatomical landmarks that were used for guidance when referring to activation within the lateral occipital temporal cortex, based on ROI criteria definitions used in Knights, Mansfield et al. (2021):

      Page-7 Line-135:

      “Additional activation was observed bilaterally in the inferior/ventral and lateral occipital temporal cortex (i.e., a cluster around the lateral occipital sulcus that extended anteriorly beyond the anterior occipital sulcus), likely due to the visual nature of the task.”

      Point 10: [Recommendations for the authors] 5) On p18ff. (ll. 259-318) the authors discuss in quite some detail how the age-related decoding boost seen with the cuneus ROI can be functionally explained, but it seems like none of the explanations agrees with all aspects of the results. While this is not a major problem for the paper, it may be advisable if this part of the discussion ends with a clearer statement that this issue is not fully solved yet and provides material for future research.

      A more direct sentence has been added to make it clear that future investigation will be needed to explain the role of the cuneal cortex here.

      Page-20 Line-322:

      “Another possibility is that the age-related increases in fMRI activations (for hard versus easy) in one or both of our ROIs do not reflect greater fMRI signal for hard problems in older than younger people, but rather lower fMRI signal for easy problems in the older. Without a third baseline condition, we cannot distinguish these two possibilities in our data. However, a reduced “baseline” level of fMRI signal (e.g., for easy problems) in older people is consistent with other studies showing an age-related decline in baseline perfusion levels, coupled with preserved capacity of cerebrovascular reactivity to meet metabolic demands of neuronal activity at higher cognitive load  (Calautti et al., 2001; Jennings et al., 2005). Though age-related decline in baseline perfusion occurs in the cuneal cortex (Tsvetanov et al., 2021), the brain regions showing modulation of behaviourally-relevant Cattell fMRI activity by perfusion levels did not include the cuneal cortex (Wu et al., 2021). This suggests that the compensatory effects in the cuneus are unlikely to be explained by age-related hypo-perfusion, consistent with the minimal effect here of adjusting for RSFA (Figure 2C). Overall then, as none of the explanations above agree with all aspects of the results, to functionally explain the role of the cuneal cortex in this task will require further investigation.”

      Point 11: [Recommendations for the authors] 6) The threshold choice for Bayesian log evidence (> 3) should be motivated in some more detail, rather than just pointing to a book reference, as there is no established convention in the field, the choice may depend on the type of data and/or analysis, and a sizeable part of the readership may not be deeply familiar with the particular Bayesian approach used here.

      Text is updated to further clarify our motivation for using the log evidence BF>3 criterion:

      Page-29

      “The outcome measure was the log evidence for each model (Morcom & Henson, 2018; Knights et al., 2021). To test whether activity from an ROI is compensatory, we used an ordinal boost measure (Morcom & Henson, 2018; Knights et al., 2021) to assess the contribution of that ROI for the decoding of task-relevant information (Figure 3B). Specifically, Bayesian model comparison assessed whether a model that contains activity patterns from a compensatory ROI and the MDN (i.e., a joint model) boosted the prediction of task-relevant information relative to a model containing the MDN only. The compensatory hypothesis predicts that the likelihood of a boost to model decoding will increase with older age. The dependent measure, for each participant, was a categorical recoding of the relative model evidence to indicate the outcome of the model comparison. The three possible outcomes were: a boost to model evidence for the joint vs. MDN-only model (difference in log evidence > 3), ambiguous evidence for the two models (difference in log evidence between -3 to 3), or a reduction in evidence for the joint vs. MDN-only model (difference in log evidence < -3).These values were selected because a log difference of three corresponds to a Bayes Factor of 20, which is generally considered strong evidence (Lee & Wagenmakers, 2014). Further, with uniform priors, this chosen criterion (Bayes Factor > 3) corresponds to a p-value of p<~.05 (since the natural logarithm of 20 equals three, as evidence for the alternative hypothesis).”

      Point 12: [Recommendations for the authors] 7) Adding page numbers would be helpful.

      Page numbers have been added to the manuscript file – apologies for this oversight.

      References

      Green, E., Bennett, H., Brayne, C., & Matthews, F. E. (2018). Exploring patterns of response across the lifespan: The Cambridge Centre for Ageing and Neuroscience (Cam-CAN) study. BMC Public Health18, 1-7.

      Knights, E., Mansfield, C., Tonin, D., Saada, J., Smith, F. W., & Rossit, S. (2021). Hand-selective visual regions represent how to grasp 3D tools: brain decoding during real actions. Journal of Neuroscience41(24), 5263-5273.

      Samu, D., Campbell, K. L., Tsvetanov, K. A., Shafto, M. A., & Tyler, L. K. (2017). Preserved cognitive functions with age are determined by domain-dependent shifts in network responsivity. Nature communications, 8(1), 14743.

      Shafto, M. A., Tyler, L. K., Dixon, M., Taylor, J. R., Rowe, J. B., Cusack, R., ... & Cam-CAN. (2014). The Cambridge Centre for Ageing and Neuroscience (Cam-CAN) study protocol: a cross-sectional, lifespan, multidisciplinary examination of healthy cognitive ageing. BMC neurology14, 1-25.

      Wu, S., Tyler, L. K., Henson, R. N., Rowe, J. B., & Tsvetanov, K. A. (2023). Cerebral blood flow predicts multiple demand network activity and fluid intelligence across the adult lifespan. Neurobiology of aging121, 1-14.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Reviewer):

      It is not clear from the analysis presented in the paper how persistent those environmentally induced changes, do they remain with the bats till the end of their lives.

      Currently, the long-term effects of enrichment on the bats remain uncertain. Preliminary results suggest that these differences may persist throughout the bats’ lifetimes; however, further data analysis is ongoing to determine the extent of these effects. We also addressed now at the manuscript discussion

      Reviewer #2 (Public Reviewer):

      (1) Assessing personality metrics and the indoor paradigm: While I applaud this effort and think the metrics used are justified, I see a few issues in the results as they are currently presented:

      (a) [Major] I am somewhat concerned that here, the foraging box paradigm is being used for two somewhat conflicting purposes: (1) assessing innate personality and (2) measuring changes in personality as a result of experience. If the indoor foraging task is indeed meant to measure and reflect both at the same time, then perhaps this can be made more explicit throughout the manuscript. In this circumstance, I think the authors could place more emphasis on the fact that the task, at later trials/measurements, begins to take on the character of a "composite" measure of personality and experience.

      Personality traits should generally be stable over time, but personality can also somewhat change with experience. We used the foraging box to assess individual personality, but we also examined the assumption that what we are measuring is a proxy of personality and hence is stable over time. We now clarify this in the manuscript. 

      (b) [Major] Although you only refer to results obtained in trials 1 and 2 when trying to estimate "innate personality" effects, I am a little worried that the paradigm used to measure personality, i.e. the stable components of behavior, is itself affected by other factors such as age (in the case of activity, Fig. 1C3, S1C1-2), the environment (see data re trial 3), and experience outdoors (see data re trials 4/5).

      We found that boldness was the most consistent trait, showing persistence between trials 1 to 5, i.e., 144 days apart on average. We thus also used Boldness as the primary parameter for assessing the effects of personality on the outdoors behavior. While we evaluated other traits for completeness, boldness was the only one that consistently met the criteria for personality, which is why we focused on it in our analyses. The other traits which were not stable over time could be used to assess the effects of experience on behavior

      Ideally, a study that aims to disentangle the role of predisposition from early-life experience would have a metric for predisposition that is relatively unchanging for individuals, which can stand as a baseline against a separate metric that reflects behavioral differences accumulated as a result of experience.

      I would find it more convincing that the foraging box paradigm can be used to measure personality if it could be shown that young bats' behavior was consistent across retests in the box paradigm prior to any environmental exposure across many baseline trials (i.e. more than 2), and that these "initial settings" were constant for individuals. I think it would be important to show that personality is consistent across baseline trials 1 and 2. This could be done, for example, by reproducing the plots in Fig. 1C1-3 while plotting trial 1 against trial 2. (I would note here that if a significant, positive correlation were to be found (as I would expect) between the measures across trial 1 and 2, it is likely that we would see the "habituation effect" the authors refer to expressed as a steep positive slope on the correlation line (indicating that bold individuals on trial 1 are much bolder on trial 2).)

      We agree and thus used boldness which was found to be stable over five trials (three of which were without external experience). We note that if Boldness as we measured it increased over time, the differences between individuals remained similar and this is what is expected from personality traits measured in the same paradigm several times (after the animal acquires experience).  

      (c) Related to the previous point, it was not clear to me why the data from trial 2 (the second baseline trial) was not presented in the main body of the paper, and only data from trial 1 was used as a baseline.

      We added a main figure, showing the correlation between the two baseline trials

      In the supplementary figure and table, you show that the bats tended to exhibit more boldness and exploratory behavior, but fewer actions, in trial 2 as compared with trial 1. You explain that this may be due to habituation to the experimental setup, however, the precise motivation for excluding data from trial 2 from the primary analyses is not stated. I would strongly encourage the authors to include a comparison of the data between the baseline trials in their primary analysis (see above), combine the information from these trials to form a composite baseline against which further analyses are performed, or further justify the exclusion of data as a baseline.

      We had no intention of excluding data from baseline 2. As we have shown several times before (e.g., Harten, 2021) bats’ boldness as we measure it in the box experiment increases over sessions performed nearby in time. This means that trial 2’s boldness was higher than that of trial 1 and trial 3 which made the data less suitable for a Linear model. Moreover, our measurement of boldness is capped (with a maximum of 1) again making it less suitable for a Linear model. However, following the reviewer’s question we now ran all analyses with trial 2’s data included and not only that the results remained the same, some of the models fit better (based on the AIC criterion). We added this information to the revised manuscript.  

      (2) Comparison of indoor behavioral measures and outdoor behavioral measures Regarding the final point in the results, correlation between indoor personality on Trial 4 and outdoor foraging behavior: It is not entirely clear to me what is being tested (neither the details of the tests nor the data or a figure are plotted). Given some of the strong trends in the data - namely, (1) how strongly early environment seems to affect outdoor behavior, (2) how strongly outdoor experience affects boldness, measured on indoor behavior (Fig. 1D) - I am not convinced that there is no relationship, as is stated here, between indoor and outdoor behavior. If this conclusion is made purely on the basis of a p-value, I would suggest revisiting this analysis.

      We agree that the relationship between indoor personality measures and outdoor foraging behavior is of great interest and had expected to find some correspondence between the two. To test this, we conducted multiple GLM analyses using the different indoor behavioral traits as predictors of outdoor behaviors. These analyses did not reveal any significant correlations. We also performed a separate analysis using PC1 (derived from the indoor behavioral variables) as a predictor, and again found no significant associations with outdoor behavior.

      We were indeed surprised by this outcome. It is possible that the behavioral traits we assessed indoors (boldness, exploration, and activity) do not fully capture the dimensions of behavior that are most relevant to foraging in the wild. For example, traits such as neophobia or decisionmaking under risk, which we did not assess directly, may have had stronger predictive value for outdoor behavior. We now highlight this point more clearly in the Discussion and acknowledge the possibility that alternative or additional personality traits might have revealed meaningful relationships.

      (3) Use of statistics/points regarding the generalized linear models While I think the implementation of the GLMM models is correct, I am not certain that the interpretation of the GLMM results is entirely correct for cases where multivariate regression has been performed (Tables 4s and S1, and possibly Table 3). (You do not present the exact equation they used for each model (this would be a helpful addition to the methods), therefore it is somewhat difficult to evaluate if the following critique properly applies, however...)

      The "estimate" for a fixed effect in a regression table gives the difference in the outcome variable for a 1 unit increase in the predictor variable (in the case of numeric predictors) or for each successive "level" or treatment (in the case of categorical variables), compared to the baseline, the intercept, which reflects the value of the outcome variable given by the combination of the first value/level of all predictors. Therefore, for example, in Table 4a - Time spend outside: the estimate for Bat sex: male indicates (I believe) the difference in time spent outside for an enriched male vs. an enriched female, not, as the authors seem to aim to explain, the effect of sex overall. Note that the interpretation of the first entry, Environmental condition: impoverished, is correct. I refer the authors to the section "Multiple treatments and interactions" on p. 11 of this guide to evaluating contrasts in G/LMMS: https://bbolker.github.io/mixedmodelsmisc/notes/contrasts.pdf

      We are not certain we fully understand the comment; however, if our understanding is correct, we respectfully disagree. A GLM analysis without interaction terms—as conducted in our study—functions as a multiple linear regression, wherein each factor's estimate reflects its individual effect on the dependent variable. For example in the case of sex, it examines he effect of sex on the tie spent out independently of enrichment. An interaction term would be needed to test sex*enrichment. We have added the models’ formula, and we hope this clarifies our approach

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      I would recommend the following:

      (1) As video tracking and behavioral analysis softwares are wide spread, it would be great to see this applied to the bat behavior indoor to answer questions like how does the bat velocity or heading or acceleration correlate with the behavioral measures boldness , activity or exploration? In the same gist, can one infer boldness, activity or exploration from measured bat velocity or other parameters? I think this will further make the indoor behavior more quantitative.

      In a tent of the size used in our study, bats’ flight behavior tends to be highly stereotypical: they typically perch on the wall, take off, circle the tent—sometimes multiple times—and then either land or not, and enter or not. Flight velocity is largely determined by individual maneuverability and the physical constraints of the space; thus, precise tracking is unlikely to provide further insight into boldness. In contrast, decision-making behaviors—such as whether to land or enter—more accurately reflect personality traits, as we have shown previously (Harten et al., 2018). Moreover, accurate 3D tracking in such an environment is possible but definitely not easy due to the many blind-spots resulting from the cameras being inside the 3D volume.  Nonetheless, we quantified flight activity and assessed its correlation with the other behavioral axes. As it was highly correlated with general activity, we did not include it as an independent parameter in the main analysis. However, in response to the reviewer’s suggestion, we now present this analysis in the Supplementary Materials.

      (2) It is not clear whether the bats come from the same genetic background. they might be but it is not mentioned in the methods under the experimental subjects.

      We have shown in the past that there is no familial relations in a randomly caught sample of bats in the colony where we usually work (Harten et al., 2018). The bats were caught in three, not related wild colonies. The text referring to the table was clarified in the revised manuscript

      (3) It will be great to include the author's thoughts about mechanisms underlying those environmentally induced changes in behavior in the discussion section along with how this will affect the bats' social foraging abilities. Another question that comes to mind is whether growing up with a large number of bats constitute an enriched environment in itself.

      We agree that this could count as an enrichment, and we thus ensured similar group sizes in both groups for this reason. We clarify this in the revised manuscript. 

      We have elaborated on the underlying mechanisms in the discussion, focusing on how they contribute to behavioral changes.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Outdoor foraging behavior

      If I understand correctly, the data you display in Fig. 3A is only from the 2nd to 3rd weeks of exploration, i.e. just before the first post-exploration trial.

      What does the data look like for the second outdoor exploration data, i.e. before the final trial?

      Is there a specific reason why these measures were only computed on the GPS data from the 3rd week outside? If so, can this sampling of the data be motivated or briefly addressed (in the methods and wherever else necessary)?

      In order to allow a comparison between individuals, we had to restrict ourself to a period we had data from many individuals (some dissapeared later on).

      Following the reviewer suggestion – we added a supplemenry figure including days 21-26

      I would find it important and of great interest to see movement maps for more animals, as these give very rich information that is not entirely captured by the three proxies of outdoor activity.

      Are these four exemplary animals sampled from both seasons?

      Did you check to see if there were any overall differences in outdoor foraging behavior as a function of the season in which the bats were captured?

      Yes, the samples represent individuals from both tested years. This was clarified, and additional examples were included in a supplementary figure.

      Variable of time spent outdoors: You mention that you did not include the nights that the bat spent in the colony in these calculations. Did you also look to see if 'the number of nights when the bats left the colony' predicted the bat's earlier enrichment treatment? This could also be interesting to consider.

      In response to the reviewer’s comment, we conducted an additional analysis to test whether the proportion of nights each bat spent foraging outside the roost was predicted by its earlier environmental condition (enriched vs. impoverished). We also examined whether sex or age influenced this variable. This analysis showed no significant effect of environmental condition, sex, or age on the proportion of nights spent foraging outside the roost

      [Following on point 3 in public review...]

      When wishing to discuss the effect/significance of predictors overall, it is common to present the modelling results as an analysis of variance table. See, for example, the two-way anova section (p. 182) in the book Practical Regression and ANOVA using R: https://cran.r-project.org/doc/contrib/Faraway-PRA.pdf

      I think the output of passing the model object to an "anova" yields the table that you may be looking for, where the variance accounted for by a predictor is given overall, and not just relative to the first level of all predictors. Naturally, this information can be used in combination with the information provided by the raw model output presented in the paper.

      I assume you have done this analysis in R, but am not sure, as the statistical software used is not mentioned. There are several packages in R that allow users to quickly plot the graphical interaction of the parameters they use in models, which aids in interpreting results. It would be good to check results of model fitting in this manner.

      Relatedly, I was unable to locate the data and code for this paper using the DOI provided. Neither searching the internet using the doi nor entering the doi on the Mendeley Data website returned the right results. I tried searching Mendeley Data using the senior author's last name, but the most recent entry does not appear to be from this paper. https://data.mendeley.com/datasets/fr48bmnhxj/1

      We thank the reviewer for the helpful comment. The analysis was indeed conducted in MATLAB, and this has now been clarified in the manuscript. We have also revised the result tables to improve clarity and included the exact formulas used for each model. Regarding the data availability, the reviewer is correct — the dataset had not yet been published at the time of submission. It is now available at the provided DOI link.

      ### Suggestions and questions for the present paper, grouped thematically:

      [Major] Expansion and development of results: I thought there were many interesting and suggestive points in this data that could be expanded upon. I mention some of these here. While the authors of course do not need to implement all of these suggestions, I think the paper would benefit from a more substantial presentation of this rich data set:

      (a) Individual differences as such are not emphasized in the paper so much, as the analyses, particularly those expressed as boxplots, are grouped. The scatter plots in Figure 1 give the richest insight into how individual behavior changes throughout the course of the experiment. I would advocate for the authors to show additional comparisons using such scatter plots (perhaps in the supplementary, if needed).

      We thank the reviewer and added scatter plots to figure 2

      (b) In the second paragraph of the results, the authors introduce the concept of a pareto front and that of personality archetypes (lines 101-107). I found this very interesting, but these concepts were never reiterated upon later in the results or in the discussion. In fact, at many points, I found myself curious as to how the three indoor measures of personality might be combined to form a composite measure of personality (and likewise for outdoor measures). Have you tried to combine measures into a composite and tried to measure whether this composite metric provides any additional insight into these phenomena? For example, what if you mapped the starting position of each bat as a point in a three-dimensional space, given by the three personality measures, and then evaluated their trajectory through this space with measurements taken at later trials. Could innate personality be interpreted as the starting vector in this space (measured across the two baseline trials)? 

      Following the reviewer’s (justified) curiosity we ran a PCA analysis on the behavioral data from trials 1 and 5 and found that there is a significant correlation between the individual scores on PC1. This can be thought of as a measurement that takes both boldness and exploration into account (the weight of activity was very low). We added this information to the revised manuscript and also use this new behavioral parameter as a predisposition in the models (instead of exploration and activity). 

      Could environmental exposure be quantified as a warping of the trajectory through this space? Finally, could outdoor experience also be incorporated to evaluate how an individual arrives at its final measurement of personality combined with experience (trial 5)?

      The paper currently tries to explain outdoors behavior given personality and not vice versa. While this is a very interesting suggestion, we feel that adding this analysis would make the premise of the paper less clear and since the paper is already somewhat complex, we prefer to leave this analysis for a future study. 

      Examining the 3D trajectories of the individuals through the personality space did not reveal any immediate clear pattern (triangles mark the first trial and colours depict the environmental treatment) – 

      Author response image 1.

      Related to this point: I think the strongest part of the paper is the result showing that bats exposed to enriched environments explore farther, more often, and over larger distances than bats that were raised in an impoverished environment.

      We completely agree and tried to further emphasize this  

      (c) While these results of the outdoor GPS tracking are very clear, I wish that more information were extracted from the tracking data, which is incredibly rich and certainly can be used to derive many interest parameters beyond those that the authors have shown here. Examples might include: distance travelled (as opposed to estimated km2 or farthest point), a metric of navigational ability (how much "dead reckoning" the animal engages in). I even wonder if the areas or landmarks visited by the enriched bats might be found to be more complex, challenging, or richer by some measure.

      This study was a first step, aiming to establish a connection between early exposure and outdoors foraging

      We agree that there are many more analyses that can be done and indeed that ones related to navigation capabilities are missing. We are still collecting data on these bats and hope to present a more advanced analysis with a time span of years. 

      (d) Related to the above point: I find it very interesting that in 3 of the 4 bats for which you show exemplary movement data (Fig. 3, panels B and C), they appear to travel to the farthest distances and cover the most ground early on, and become more "conservative" in their flight paths on later evenings. This point is not explored in the discussion, nor related to earlier measurements.

      During the first months of exploration, bats will occasionally perform long exploratory flights in between bouts of shorter flights where they return to nearby familiar trees. This behavior can be seen in more detail in Harten et al Science 2020. We are currently quantifying this more carefully for another study. 

      (e) Finally, my points about the possible strength of a composite measure of the three personality metrics is related to my concern about one of the conclusions, which is that innate personality does not have an effect on outdoor foraging behavior. I think the manner in which this was tested statistically is likely to bias the results against finding such a result given that personality metrics are used to predict outdoor behaviors in an individual manner (6 models in total, each examining a single comparison of predisposition to outdoor behavior), while both indoor personality metrics (Fig 1B) and outdoor behaviors appear to be correlated with each other (Table 5).

      Are there other analyses you have performed that are not presented in the paper and that have led you to conclude that there is no relationship here?

      We agree with the reviewer, that our findings do not exclude an effect of innate personality on foraging but only suggest no such affect for the parameter we measured. That said, we did expect to find an effect of boldness because this parameter has been shown to differentiate much between groups (Harten et al., 2018), and to correlate with other parameters of behavior. We were therefore surprised to find no significant effects, as we had anticipated observing some differences.

      Following the reviewer’s previous comment we now also tested another predisposition parameter – the PC1 score and also found that it did not explain foraging. 

      (f) Personality measured before and after early environmental exposure (related to point (a) above): I find it interesting that the positive correlation in boldness between baseline and post-enrichment or baseline and post-release suggests that the individuals that were the most bold remained bold (and likewise for less adventurous individuals). The correlation for activity, too, still suggests that more active individuals early in life are likely to remain very active after enrichment, even accounting for the fact that activity is confounded with age.

      Perhaps you could place some emphasis on the fact that the initial variation between individuals also appears to be relatively stable over repeated trials. You might also consider measuring this directly (population variance over successive trials; relationship of population variance on indoor measures vs. outdoor measures...)

      Yes – this is a main point of interest. We further emphasize that in the revised manuscript 

      (g) Effect of indoor behavior following early experience on outdoor behavior: You evaluate the effect of predisposition (measured on baseline trial 1) and environmental condition on measures of outdoor activity (Table 4). I wonder if you also tried using indoor behavioral measures measured on the post-enrichment trial 3 to predict outdoor foraging behavior.

      Assuming that these measures are in fact reflecting a combination of predisposition and accumulated experience, then measurements at this closer time point may tell you how the combination of innate traits and early acquired experience affect behavior in the wild.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s insightful suggestion to test whether indoor behavior from post-enrichment Trial 3, reflecting both innate traits and experience, predicts outdoor foraging behavior. We conducted this analysis, but found that the boldness in Trial 3 did not significantly predict any of the outdoor activity measures.

      (2) [Minor] Age/development: While the authors discuss the effect of their manipulations on behavioral measures, they do not much discuss the effect of age.

      I think it would be important to include at some point a mention of the developmental stages of Rousettus, giving labels to certain age ranges, e.g. pup, juvenile, adult, and to provide more context about the stages at which bats were tested in the discussion. Presently, age is only really mentioned as an explanation for declining activity levels, but I wonder if it might also have an influence on boldness.

      It would also be very elegant for figures where age is given in days, to additional label then with these stages.

      All bats were juveniles during the trials (approximately 4 to 8 months old), so they could not be divided into distinct age groups. To assess the effect of age, it was included as a predictor (in days) in the GLM analysis.

      (3) [Major] Effect of early experience and outdoor experience on the indoor task: In the paragraph on lines 278-285, you argue that the effect of seeing earlyenriched bats exhibit more boldness in trial 5 was likely due to post-sampling bias...

      I tend to disagree with this conclusion. I actually find this result both interesting and intuitive - that bats that were exposed to an enriched environment and have had experience in the wild, show much bolder activity on a familiar indoor foraging test (i.e. outside experience has made the animals bolder than before) (Fig 1, lines 159-161, Fig. S1). I did not notice this possibility mentioned in the discussion of the results.

      I also do not fully understand this argument. Could you please explain further?

      We accept the reviewer's comment and updated the manuscript (lines 336346) explaining the two hypotheses more clearly and arguing that it is difficult to tell them apart with the current data.

      [Minor] You also say that "this difference... can be seen in Figure 2 when examining only the bats that had remained until the last trial (Figure 2A2)." Do you mean supplementary Figure S1 A2? In fact, I am entirely unclear on what data is plotted in the supplementary Figure S1 and what differentiates the two columns of figures and the two models presented in the supplementary table. Did you plot data similar to that in Figure 2, with only bats that were present for all trials, but not show this data?

      There was a mistake: what was previously referred to as 2A2 is actually S2 A2.

      On the right side—only among the individuals with GPS data—the change is already evident at Baseline 2, where only the bolder individuals remain. If you have suggestions for a better analysis approach, we would be happy to hear them.

      ### Minor points

      General points regarding figures:

      For Figures 2 and 3A1-3 (as well as Fig. S1): Authors must show the raw data points over the box plots. It is very difficult to interpret the data and conclusions without being able to see the true distribution.

      Done

      For all figures showing grouped individual data, please annotate all panels or sets of boxplots with the number of bats whose data entered into each, as it is a little difficult to keep track of the changing sample sizes across experimental stages.

      To enhance transparency, we have added individual data points to all boxplots, allowing visual estimation of sample sizes across experimental stages. While numerical annotations are not included on the figures, the exact number of bats contributing to each group is provided in the Methods section (Table 8), ensuring this information is readily accessible to readers.In response to the reviewer’s request, we have updated all relevant figures to display individual data points within each boxplot. This addition makes it easier to track changes in sample size across different experimental stages.

      Unless I've missed the reason behind differences in axis labelling across the figures, it seems that trials are not always referred to consistently. E.g. Fig. 1 labels say "Trial 1 (baseline)" and fig. 2 labels say "Baseline 1 0 days." I'm not entirely sure if these correspond to exactly the same data. If so, perhaps the labels can be made uniform. I think the descriptive ones (Baseline 1, Postenrichment...) may be more helpful to the reader than providing the trial number (Trial 1, etc....).

      Done

      Figure 1:

      Very good Fig. 1A and 1B.

      For panels C1-3 & D, I think it would make it easier for the reader if the personality measure labels were placed at the top of each panel, e.g. "Boldness (entrance proportion)". The double axis labels are not only harder to read, they are also redundant, as the personality measure label repeats on both axes.

      Done

      Panel C1: For the first panel in this sequence, I think it would be elegant to include an annotation in the figure that indicates what the datapoints lying on either side of the dashed line means, i.e. "bolder after enrichment treatment" in the upper left corner, and "bolder before enrichment treatment" in the bottom right corner.

      Panel C2: It appears as though many of the data points in this panel overlap, and it appears to me that the blue data points in particular are overlaid by the orange ones. I am guessing this happens because proportion values based on entrances to only 6 boxes end up giving a more "discrete" looking distribution. I wonder if you can find a way to allow all the data to be visible by, e.g., jittering the data slightly; if there is rounding being done to the proportions, perhaps don't round them so that minute differences will allow them to escape the overlap; or possibly split the panel by enrichment treatment.

      Caption for C1-3: it may be helpful to mention the correlation line color scheme: "enriched (blue lines), the impoverished (orange lines)". The caption also says positive correlations were found for "both environments together," but this correlation line is not shown. Perhaps mention "(not shown)" or show line. Please rephrase the sentence "Dashed line represents the Y=X line." for more transparency and clarity. I understand you mean an "equality" or "unity" line, but perhaps you can explicitly state the information that this line provides, something like e.g. "Dashed line indicates equal values measured on both trials."

      We added the line for a reference, the caption was corrected

      Figure 3:

      Panels B1-C2: I would suggest giving these panels supertitles that indicate that B panels are enriched, C panels are impoverished, and that each panel is data from a different individual.

      The legend was corrected to be more clear about the figure

      General points regarding tables:

      Please revisit tables for formatting and typos, particularly in Table 4. Please also revise table captions for clarity. E.g. "first exploration as predisposition" to "Exploration (Baseline 1)" or similar

      Done

      Supplementary Tables and Figure: these are missing captions and explanations.

      The missing parts were adddad and corrected

      Points of clarification/style:

      It would seem to me more logical to present the results shown in Table 3 before those in Table 2, given that the primary in-lab manipulation is discussed with relation to Table 3, and the analysis in Table 2 is discussed rather as a limitation (though I believe this result can be expanded upon further, see above).

      For the activity metric, I would suggest showing this data as actions/hour instead of actions/minute. I think it is much more intuitive to consider, for example, that a bat makes 2 actions every hour, than that it makes 0.002 actions per minute.

      Done

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The authors present a model for multisensory correlation detection that is based on the neurobiologically plausible Hassenstein Reichardt detector. It modifies their previously reported model (Parise & Ernst, 2016) in two ways: a bandpass (rather than lowpass) filter is initially applied and the filtered signals are then squared. The study shows that this model can account for synchrony judgement, temporal order judgement, etc in two new data sets (acquired in this study) and a range of previous data sets.

      Strengths:

      (1) The model goes beyond descriptive models such as cumulative Gaussians for TOJ and differences in cumulative Gaussians for SJ tasks by providing a mechanism that builds on the neurobiologically plausible Hassenstein-Reichardt detector.

      (2) This modified model can account for results from two new experiments that focus on the detection of correlated transients and frequency doubling. The model also accounts for several behavioural results from experiments including stochastic sequences of A/V events and sine wave modulations.

      Additional thoughts:

      (1) The model introduces two changes: bandpass filtering and squaring of the inputs. The authors emphasize that these changes allow the model to focus selectively on transient rather than sustained channels. But shouldn't the two changes be introduced separately? Transients may also be detected for signed signals.

      We updated the original model because our new psychophysical evidence demonstrates the fundamental role of unsigned transient for multisensory perception. While the original model received input from sustained unimodal channels (low-pass filters), the new version receives input from unsigned unimodal transient channels. Transient channels are normally modelled through bandpass filters (to remove the DC and high-frequency signal components) and squaring (to remove the sign). While these may appear as two separate changes in the model, they are, in fact, a single one: the substitution of sustained with unsigned transient channels (for a similar approach, see Stigliani et al. 2017, PNAS). Either change alone would not be sufficient to implement a transient channel that accounts for the present results.

      That said, we were also concerned with introducing too many changes in the model at once. Indeed, we simply modelled the unimodal transient channels as a single band-pass filter followed by squaring. This is already a stripped-down version of the unsigned transient detectors proposed by Adelson and Bergen in their classic Motion Energy model. The original model consisted of two biphasic temporal filters 90 degrees out of phase (i.e., quadrature filters), whose output is later combined. While a simpler implementation of the transient channels was sufficient in the present study, the full model may be necessary for other classes of stimuli (including speech, Parise, 2024, BiorXiv). Therefore, for completeness, we now include in the Supplementary Information a formal description of the full model, and validate it by simulating our two novel psychophysical studies. See Supplementary Information “The quadrature MCD model” section and Supplementary Figure S8.

      (2) Because the model is applied only to rather simple artificial signals, it remains unclear to what extent it can account for AV correlation detection for naturalistic signals. In particular, speech appears to rely on correlation detection of signed signals. Can this modified model account for SJ or TOJ judgments for naturalistic signals?

      It can. In a recent series of studies we have demonstrated that a population of spatially-tuned MCD units can account for audiovisual correlation detection for naturalistic stimuli, including speech (e.g. the McGurk Illusion). Once again, unsigned transients were sufficient to replicate a variety of previous findings. We have now extended the discussion to cover this recent research: Parise, C. V. (2024). Spatiotemporal models for multisensory integration. bioRxiv, 2023-12.

      Even Nidiffer et al. (2018) which is explicitly modelled by the authors report a significant difference in performance for correlated and anti-correlated signals. This seems to disagree with the results of study 1 reported in the current paper and the model's predictions. How can these contradicting results be explained? If the brain detects correlation on signed and unsigned signals, is a more complex mechanism needed to arbitrate between those two?

      We believe the reviewer here refers to our Experiment 2 (where, like Nidiffer at al. (2018) we used periodic stimuli, not Experiment 1, which consists of step stimuli). We were also puzzled by the difference between our Experiment 2 and Nidiffer et al. (2018): we induced frequency doubling, Nidiffer did not. Based on quantitative simulations, we concluded that this difference could be attributed to the fact that while Nidiffer included on each trial an intensity ramp in their periodic audiovisual stimuli, we did not. As a result, when considering the ramp (unlike in Nidiffer’s analyses), all audiovisual signals used by Nidiffer were positively correlated (irrespective of frequency and phase offset), while our signals in Experiment 2 were sometimes correlated and other times not (depending on the phase offset). This important simulation is included in Supplementary Figure S7; we also have now updated the text to better highlight the role of the pedestal in determining the direction of the correlation.

      (3) The number of parameters seems quite comparable for the authors' model and descriptive models (e.g. PSF models). This is because time constants require refitting (at least for some experimental data sets) and the correlation values need to be passed through a response mode (i.e. probit function) to account for behavioural data. It remains unclear how the brain adjusts the time constants to different sensory signals.

      This is a deep question. For simplicity, here the temporal constants were fitted to the empirical psychometric functions. To avoid overfitting, whenever possible we fitted such parameters over some training datasets, while trying to predict others. However, in some cases, it was necessary to fit the temporal constants to specific datasets. This may suggest that the temporal tuning of those units is not crystalised to some pre-defined values, but is adjusted based on recent perceptual history (e.g., the sequence of trials and stimuli participants are exposed to during the various experiments).

      For transparency, here we show how varying the tuning of the temporal constants of the filters affects the goodness of fit of our new psychophysical experiments (Supplementary Figure S8). As it can be readily appreciated, the relative temporal tuning of the unimodal transient detector was critical, though their absolute values could vary over a range of about 15 to over 100ms. The tuning of the low-pass filters of the correlation detector (not shown here) displayed much lower temporal sensitivity over a range between 0.1s to over 1s.

      This simulation shows the impact of temporal tuning in our simulations, however, the question remains as to how such a tuning gets selected in the first place. An appealing explanation relies on natural scene statistics: units are temporally tuned to the most common audiovisual stimuli. Although our current empirical evidence does not allow us to quantitatively address this question, in previous simulations (see Parise & Ernst, 2016, Supplementary Figure 8), by analogy with visual motion adaptation, we show how the temporal constants of our model can dynamically adjust and adapt to recent perceptual history. We hope these new and previous simulations address the question about the nature of the temporal tuning of the MCD units.

      (4) Fujisaki and Nishida (2005, 2006) proposed mechanisms for AV correlation detection based on the Hassenstein-Reichardt motion detector (though not formalized as a computational model).

      This is correct, Fujisaki and Nishida (2005, 2007) also hypothesized that AV synchrony could be detected using a mechanism analogous to motion detection. Interestingly, however, they ruled out such a hypothesis, as their “data do not support the existence of specialized low-level audio-visual synchrony detectors”. Yet, along with our previous work (Parise & Ernst, 2016, where we explicitly modelled the experiments of Fujisaki and Nishida), the present simulations quantitatively demonstrate that a low-level AV synchrony detector is instead sufficient to account for audiovisual synchrony perception and correlation detection. We now credit Fujusaki and Nishida in the modelling section for proposing that AV synchrony can be detected by a cross-correlator.

      Finally, we believe the reviewer is referring to the 2005 and 2007 studies of Fujisaki and Nishida (not 2006); here are the full references of the two articles we are referring to:

      Fujisaki, W., & Nishida, S. Y. (2005). Temporal frequency characteristics of synchrony–asynchrony discrimination of audio-visual signals. Experimental Brain Research, 166, 455-464.

      Fujisaki, W., & Nishida, S. Y. (2007). Feature-based processing of audio-visual synchrony perception revealed by random pulse trains. Vision Research, 47(8), 1075-1093.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This is an interesting and well-written manuscript that seeks to detail the performance of two human psychophysical experiments designed to look at the relative contributions of transient and sustained components of a multisensory (i.e., audiovisual) stimulus to their integration. The work is framed within the context of a model previously developed by the authors and is now somewhat revised to better incorporate the experimental findings. The major takeaway from the paper is that transient signals carry the vast majority of the information related to the integration of auditory and visual cues, and that the Multisensory Correlation Detector (MCD) model not only captures the results of the current study but is also highly effective in capturing the results of prior studies focused on temporal and causal judgments.

      Strengths:

      Overall the experimental design is sound and the analyses are well performed. The extension of the MCD model to better capture transients makes a great deal of sense in the current context, and it is very nice to see the model applied to a variety of previous studies.

      Weaknesses:

      My one major issue with the paper revolves around its significance. In the context of a temporal task(s), is it in any way surprising that the important information is carried by stimulus transients? Stated a bit differently, isn't all of the important information needed to solve the task embedded in the temporal dimension? I think the authors need to better address this issue to punch up the significance of their work.

      In hindsight, it may appear unsurprising that transient signals carry most information for audiovisual integration. Yet, so somewhat unexpectedly, this has never been investigated using perhaps the most diagnostic psychophysical tools for perceived crossmodal timing; namely temporal order and simultaneity judgments–along with carefully designed experiments with quantitative predictions for the effect of either channel. The fact that the results conform to intuitive expectations further supports the value of the present work: grounding empirically with what is intuitively expected. This offers solid psychophysical evidence that one can build on for future advancements. Importantly, developing a model that builds on our new results and uses the same parameters to predict a variety of classic experiments in the field, further supports the current approach.

      If “significance” is intended as shaking previous intuitions or theories, then no: this is not a significant contribution. If instead, by significance we intend to build a solid empirical and theoretical ground for future work, then we believe this study is not significant, it is foundational. We hope that this work's significance is better captured in our discussion.

      On a side note, there is an intriguing factor around transient vs. sustained channels: what matters is the amount of change, not the absolute stimulus intensity. Previous studies, for example, have suggested a positive cross modal mapping between auditory loudness and visual lightness or brightness [Odegaard et al., 2004]. This study, conversely, challenges this view and demonstrates that what matters for multisensory integration in time is not the intensity of a stimulus, but changes thereof.

      In a more minor comment, I think there also needs to be a bit more effort into articulating the biological plausibility/potential instantiations of this sustained versus transient dichotomy. As written, the paper suggests that these are different "channels" in sensory systems, when in reality many neurons (and neural circuits) carry both on the same lines.

      The reviewer is right, in our original manuscript we glossed over this aspect. We have now expanded the introduction to discuss their anatomical basis. However, we are not assuming any strict dichotomy between transient and sustained channels; rather, our results and simulations demonstrate that transient information is sufficient to account for audiovisual temporal integration.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Related to point 2 of the public review, can the authors provide additional results showing that the model can also account for naturalistic signals and more complex stochastic signals?

      While working on this manuscript, we were also working in parallel on a project related to audiovisual integration of naturalistic signals. A pre-print is available online [Parise, 2024, BiorXiv], and the related study is now discussed in the conclusions.

      (2) As noted in the public review, Fujisaki and Nishida (2005, 2006) already proposed mechanisms for AV correlation detection based on the Hassenstein-Reichardt motion detector. Their work should be referenced and discussed.

      We have now acknowledged the contribution of Fujisaki and Nishida in the modelling section, when we first introduce the link between our model and the Hassenstein-Reichardt detectors.

      (3) Experimental parameters: Was the phase shift manipulated in blocks? If yes, what about temporal recalibration?

      To minimise the effect of temporal recalibration, the order of trials in our experiments was randomised. Nonetheless, we can directly assess potential short-term recalibration effects by plotting our psychophysical responses against both the current SOA, and that of the previous trials. The resulting (raw) psychometric surfaces below are averaged across observers (and conditions for Experiment 1). In all our experiments, responses are obviously dependent on the current SOA (x-axis). However, the SOA of the previous trials (y-axis) does not seem to meaningfully affect simultaneity and temporal order judgments. The psychometric curves above the heatmaps represent the average psychometric functions (marginalized over the SOA of the previous trial).

      All in all, the present analyses demonstrate negligible temporal recalibration across trials, likely induced by a random sequence of lags or phase shifts. Therefore, when estimating the temporal constants of the model, it seems reasonable to ignore the potential effects of temporal recalibration. To avoid increasing the complexity of the present manuscript, we would prefer not to include the present analyses in the revised version.

      Author response image 1.

      Effect of previous trial. Psychometric surfaces for Experiments 1 and 2 plotted against the lag in the current vs. the previous trial. While psychophysical responses are strongly modulated by the lag in the last trial (horizontal axis), they are relatively unaffected by the lag in the previous trial (vertical axis).

      (4) The model predicts no differences for experiment 1 and this is what is empirically observed. Can the authors support these null results with Bayes factors?

      This is a good suggestion: we have now included a Bayesian repeated measures ANOVA to the analyses of Experiment 1. As expected, these analyses provide further, though mild evidence in support for the null hypothesis (See Table S2). For completeness, the new Bayesian analyses are presented alongside the previous frequentist ones in the revised manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors aim to consider the effects of phonotactics on the effectiveness of memory reactivation during sleep. They have created artificial words that are either typical or atypical and showed that reactivation improves memory for the latter but not the former.

      Comment 1:

      Strengths:

      This is an interesting design and a creative way of manipulating memory strength and typicality. In addition, the spectral analysis on both the wakefulness data and the sleep data is well done. The article is clearly written and provides a relevant and comprehensive of the literature and of how the results contribute to it.

      We thank the reviewer for his/her positive evaluation of our manuscript. 

      Comment 2:

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Unlike most research involving artificial language or language in general, the task engaged in this manuscript did not require (or test) learning of meaning or translation. Instead, the artificial words were arbitrarily categorised and memory was tested for that categorisation. This somewhat limits the interpretation of the results as they pertain to language science, and qualifies comparisons with other language-related sleep studies that the manuscript builds on.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. We agree that we did not test for meaning or translation but used a categorization task in which we trained subjects to discriminate artificial words according to their reward associations (rewarded vs. non-rewarded). Previous language studies (Batterink et al., 2014; Batterink and Paller, 2017; Reber, 1967) used artificial words to investigate implicit learning of hidden grammar rules. Here, the language researchers studied generalization of the previously learned grammar knowledge by testing subject’s ability to categorize correctly a novel set of artificial words into rule-congruent versus rule-incongruent words. These differences to our study design might limit the comparability between the results of previous language studies of artificial grammar learning and our findings. We discussed now this aspect as a limitation of our novel paradigm. 

      We added the following sentences to the discussion on p.14, ll. 481-488:

      Based on our paradigm, we investigated categorization learning of artificial words according to their reward associations (rewarded vs. unrewarded) and did not studied aspects of generalization learning of artificial grammar rules (Batterink et al., 2014; Batterink and Paller, 2017; Reber, 1967). This difference might limit the comparability between these previous language-related studies and our findings. However, the usage of artificial words with distinct phonotactical properties provided a successful way to manipulate learning difficulty and to investigate word properties on TMR, whereas our reward categorization learning paradigm had the advantage to increase the relevance of the word learnings due to incentives.    

      Comment 3:

      (2) The details of the behavioural task are hard to understand as described in the manuscript. Specifically, I wasn't able to understand when words were to be responded to with the left or right button. What were the instructions? Were half of the words randomly paired with left and half with right and then half of each rewarded and half unrewarded? Or was the task to know if a word was rewarded or not and right/left responses reflected the participants' guesses as to the reward (yes/no)? Please explain this fully in the methods, but also briefly in the caption to Figure 1 (e.g., panel C) and in the Results section.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment and added additional sentences into the document to provide additional explanations. We instructed the participants to respond to each word by left- and right-hand button presses, whereas one button means the word is rewarded and the other button means the word is unrewarded. The assignment of left- and right-hand button presses to their meanings (rewarded versus unrewarded) differed across subjects. In the beginning, they had to guess. Then over trial repetitions with feedback at the end of each trial, they learned to respond correctly according to the rewarded/unrewarded associations of the words.        

      We added the following sentences to the results section on p.5, ll. 161-168: 

      As a two alternative forced-choice task, we assigned left- and right-hand button presses to the rewarded and the unrewarded word category, counterbalanced across subjects. We instructed the participants to respond to each word by left- or right-hand button presses, whereas one button means the word is rewarded (gain of money points) and the other button means the word is unrewarded (avoid the loss of money points). In the beginning, they had to guess. By three presentations of each word in randomized order and by feedback at the end of each trial, they learned to respond correctly according to the rewarded/unrewarded associations of the words (Fig. 1c). 

      We added the following sentences to the caption of Figure 1 on p.6, ll. 188-194:

      As a two alternative forced-choice task, responses of left- and right-hand button presses were assigned to the rewarded and the unrewarded word category, respectively. The participants were instructed to respond to each word by left- or right-hand button presses, whereas one button means the word is rewarded (gain of money points) and the other button means the word is unrewarded (avoid the loss of money points). d) Feedback matrix with the four answer types (hits: rewarded and correct; CR, correct rejections: unrewarded and correct; misses: rewarded and incorrect; FA, false alarms: unrewarded and incorrect) regarding to response and reward assignment of the word.

      We added the following sentences to the methods on p.19, ll. 687-692:  

      As a two alternative forced-choice task, we assigned left- and right-hand button presses to the rewarded and the unrewarded word category, counterbalanced across subjects. We instructed the participants to respond to each word by left- or right-hand button presses, whereas one button means the word is rewarded (gain of money points) and the other button means the word is unrewarded (avoid the loss of money points).

      Comment 4:  

      (3) Relatedly, it is unclear how reward or lack thereof would translate cleanly into a categorisation of hits/misses/correct rejections/false alarms, as explained in the text and shown in Figure 1D. If the item was of the non-rewarded class and the participant got it correct, they avoided loss. Why would that be considered a correct rejection, as the text suggests? It is no less of a hit than the rewarded-correct, it's just the trial was set up in a way that limits gains. This seems to mix together signal detection nomenclature (in which reward is uniform and there are two options, one of which is correct and one isn't) and loss-aversion types of studies (in which reward is different for two types of stimuli, but for each type you can have H/M/CR/FA separably). Again, it might all stem from me not understanding the task, but at the very least this required extended explanations. Once the authors address this, they should also update Fig 1D. This complexity makes the results relatively hard to interpret and the merit of the manuscript hard to access. Unless there are strong hypotheses about reward's impact on memory (which, as far as I can see, are not at the core of the paper), there should be no difference in the manner in which the currently labelled "hits" and "CR" are deemed - both are correct memories. Treating them differently may have implications on the d', which is the main memory measure in the paper, and possibly on measures of decision bias that are used as well.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment giving us the opportunity to clarify. As explained in the previous comment, for our two alternative forced-choice task, we instructed the participants to press one button when they were thinking the presented word is rewarded and the other button, when they were thinking the word is unrewarded. Based on this instruction, we applied the signal detection theory (SDT), because the subjects had the task to detect when reward was present or to reject when reward was absent. Therefore, we considered correct responses of words of the rewarded category as hits and words of the unrewarded category as correct rejections (see Table below). However, the reviewer is correct because in addition to false alarms, we punished here the incorrect responses by subtraction of money points to control for alternative task strategies of the participants instead of reward association learning of words. We agree that further explanation/argumentation to introduce our nomenclature is necessary.  

      Author response table 1.

      We adjusted the results section on p.5, ll. 169-177:

      To obtain a measurement of discrimination memory with respect to the potential influence of the response bias, we applied the signal detection theory (Green and Swets, 1966). Because, we instructed the participants to respond to each word by left- or right-hand button presses and that one button means reward is present whereas the other button means reward is absent, we considered correct responses of words of the rewarded category as hits and words of the unrewarded category as correct rejections. Accordingly, we assigned the responses with regard to the reward associations of the words to the following four response types: hits (rewarded, correct); correct rejections (unrewarded, correct); misses (rewarded, incorrect); and false alarms (unrewarded, incorrect). Dependent on responses, subjects received money points (Fig. 1d). 

      Comment 5:

      (4) The study starts off with a sample size of N=39 but excludes 17 participants for some crucial analyses. This is a high number, and it's not entirely clear from the text whether exclusion criteria were pre-registered or decided upon before looking at the data. Having said that, some criteria seem very reasonable (e.g., excluding participants who were not fully exposed to words during sleep). It would still be helpful to see that the trend remains when including all participants who had sufficient exposure during sleep. Also, please carefully mention for each analysis what the N was.

      Our study was not pre-registered. Including all the subjects independent of low prememory performance, but with respect to a decent number of reactivations (> 160 reactivations, every word at least 2 times), resulted in a new dataset with 15 and 13 participants of the high- and low-PP cueing condition, respectively. Here, statistical analyses revealed no significant overnight change anymore in memory performance in the high-PP cueing condition (Δ memory (d'): t(14) = 1.67, p = 0.12), whereas the increase of the bias in decision making towards risk avoidance still remained significant (Δ bias (c-criterion): t(14) = 3.36, p = 0.005).

      We modified and added the following sentences to the discussion on p.13, ll. 456-458:

      Our study has limitations due to a small sample size and between-subject comparisons. The criteria of data analyses were not pre-registered and the p-values of our behavior analyses were not corrected for multiple comparisons.

      Comment 6:             

      (5) Relatedly, the final N is low for a between-subjects study (N=11 per group). This is adequately mentioned as a limitation, but since it does qualify the results, it seemed important to mention it in the public review.

      We agree with the reviewer that the small sample size and the between subject comparisons represent major limitations of our study. Accordingly, we now discussed these limitations in more detail by adding alternative explanations and further suggestions for future research to overcome these limitations.        

      We added the following sentences to the discussion about the limitations on p.14, ll. 465-488: 

      To control for potential confounders despite the influence of difficulty in word learning on TMR, we compared parameters of sleep, the pre-sleep memory performance and the vigilance shortly before the post-sleep memory test, revealing no significant group differences (see Table S1 and S2). Nevertheless, we cannot rule out that other individual trait factors differed between the groups, such as the individual susceptibility to TMR. To rule out these alternative explanations based on individual factors, we suggest for future research to replicate our study by conducting a within-subject design with cueing of subsets of previously learned low- and high-PP words providing all conditions within the same individuals as shown in other TMR studies (Cairney et al., 2018; Schreiner and Rasch, 2015).

      Comment 7:

      (6) The linguistic statistics used for establishing the artificial words are all based on American English, and are therefore in misalignment with the spoken language of the participants (which was German). The authors should address this limitation and discuss possible differences between the languages. Also, if the authors checked whether participants were fluent in English they should report these results and possibly consider them in their analyses. In all fairness, the behavioural effects presented in Figure 2A are convincing, providing a valuable manipulation test.

      We thank the reviewer pointing to the misalignment between the German-speaking participants and the used artificial words based on American English. Further, we did not assessed the English language capability of the participants to control it as a potential confounder, whereas comparative control analyses revealed no significant differences between the both cueing groups in pre-sleep memory performance (see Table S1). 

      We now discussed these comments as limitations on p.14, ll. 473-481: 

      Further, we used artificial words based on American English in combination with German speaking participants, whereas language differences of pronunciation and phoneme structures might affect word perception and memory processing (Bohn and Best, 2012). On the other hand, both languages are considered to have the same language family (Eberhard et al., 2019) and the phonological distance between English and German is quite short compared for example to Korean (Luef and Resnik, 2023). Thus, major common phonological characteristics across both languages are still preserved. In addition, our behavior analyses revealed robust word discrimination learning and distinct memory performance according to different levels of phonotactic probabilities providing evidence of successful experimental manipulation. 

      Comment 8:

      (7) With regard to the higher probability of nested spindles for the high- vs low-PP cueing conditions, the authors should try and explore whether what the results show is a general increase for spindles altogether (as has been reported in the past to be correlated with TMR benefit and sleep more generally) or a specific increase in nested spindles (with no significant change in the absolute numbers of post-cue spindles). In both cases, the results would be interesting, but differentiating the two is necessary in order to make the claim that nesting is what increased rather than spindle density altogether, regardless of the SW phase.

      We conducted additional analyses based on detected sleep spindles to provide additional data according to this question. 

      We added the following section to the supplementary data on pp. 31-32, ll. 1007-1045:  

      After conducting a sleep spindle detection (frequency range of 12-16Hz, see methods for details), we compared the sleep spindle density between the TMR conditions of high- and lowPP showing no significant difference (see Fig. S8a and Table S9). Next, we subdivided the detected sleep spindles into coupled and uncoupled sleep spindles with the previously detected slow waves (SW; analyses of Fig. 4). Sleep spindles were defined as coupled when their amplitude peak occurred during the SW up-state phase (0.3 to 0.8s time-locked to the SW troughs). A two-way mixed design ANOVA on the amplitude size of the sleep spindles with the cueing group as a between-subject factor (high-PP-cued vs. low-PP-cued) and SW-coupling as a within-subject factor (coupled vs. uncoupled) showed a significant interaction effect (cueing group × SW-coupling: F(1,20) = 4.51, p = 0.046, η2 = 0.18), a significant main effect of SW-coupling (F(1,20) = 85.02, p < 0.001, η2 = 0.81), and a trend of significance of the main effect of the cueing group (F(1,20) = 3.54, p = 0.08). Post-hoc unpaired t-tests revealed a significant higher amplitude size of the coupled sleep spindles of the cueing group of high- compared to low-PP (t(20) = 2.13, p = 0.046, Cohen’s d = 0.91; Fig. S8b) and no significant group difference of the uncoupled sleep spindles (t(20) = 1.62, p = 0.12). An additional comparison of the amount of coupled sleep spindles between the cueing groups revealed no significant difference (see Table S9). 

      Here, we found that detected sleep spindles coupled to the SW up-state phase occurred with higher amplitude after TMR presentations of the high-PP words in comparison to the low-PP words, whereas the sleep spindle density and the amount of sleep spindles coupled to the SW up-state phase did not differed between the cueing conditions.     

      We added the following sentences to the methods on pp. 22-23, ll. 822-839:  

      Sleep spindle analyses 

      We detected fast sleep spindles by band-pass filtering (12-16Hz) the signal of the Pz electrode during the auditory cueing trials in the time windows of -2 to 8s according to stimulus onsets. The amplitude threshold was calculated individually for each subject as 1.25 standard deviations (SDs) from the mean. The beginning and end times of the sleep spindles were then defined as the points at which the amplitude fell below 0.75 SDs before and after the detected sleep spindle. Only sleep spindles with a duration of 0.5-3 s were included in subsequent analyses. 

      To compare the sleep spindle densities between the different cueing conditions of high- and low-PP, we computed the grand average sleep spindle density distribution in number per trial with a bin size of 0.5s from -0.5 to 6s time-locked to stimulus onset in each condition (see Fig. S8a and Table S9).     

      Based on the detected slow waves and sleep spindles, we defined coupling events when the positive amplitude peak of a detected sleep spindle was occurring during the slow wave upstate phase in a time window of 0.3 to 0.8s according to the trough of a slow wave. 

      We computed the averaged amplitude size of each detected sleep spindle by calculating the mean of the absolute amplitude values of all negative and positive peaks within a detected sleep spindle (see Fig. S8b).

      We added the following sentences to the results on p.10, ll. 338-343:  

      By conducting an additional analyses based on detection of fast sleep spindles (12-16Hz; see methods), we confirmed that fast sleep spindles during the SW up-states (from 0.3 to 0.8s after the SW trough) occurred with significantly higher amplitude after the cueing presentation of high- compared to low-PP words, whereas parameters of sleep spindle density and the amount sleep spindles coupled to the SW up-state did not differed between the cueing conditions (see Fig. S8 and Table S9).       

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The work by Klaassen & Rasch investigates the influence of word learning difficulty on sleepassociated consolidation and reactivation. They elicited reactivation during sleep by applying targeted memory reactivation (TMR) and manipulated word learning difficulty by creating words more similar (easy) or more dissimilar (difficult) to our language. In one group of participants, they applied TMR of easy words and in another group of participants, they applied TMR of difficult words (between-subjects design). They showed that TMR leads to higher memory benefits in the easy compared to the difficult word group. On a neural level, they showed an increase in spindle power (in the up-state of an evoked response) when easy words were presented during sleep.

      Comment 9:

      Strengths:

      The authors investigate a research question relevant to the field, that is, which experiences are actually consolidated during sleep. To address this question, they developed an innovative task and manipulated difficulty in an elegant way.

      Overall, the paper is clearly structured, and results and methods are described in an understandable way. The analysis approach is solid.

      We thank the reviewer for his/her positive evaluation of our manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      Comment 10:

      (1) Sample size

      For a between-subjects design, the sample size is too small (N = 22). The main finding (also found in the title "Difficulty in artificial word learning impacts targeted memory reactivation") is based on an independent samples t-test with 11 participants/group.

      The authors explicitly mention the small sample size and the between-subjects design as a limitation in their discussion. Nevertheless, making meaningful inferences based on studies with such a small sample size is difficult, if not impossible.

      We agree with the reviewer that the small sample size and the between subject comparisons represent major limitations of our study. Accordingly, we now discussed these limitations in more detail by adding alternative explanations and further suggestions for future research to overcome these limitations.        

      We added the following sentences to the discussion about the limitations on p.14, ll. 465-473: 

      To control for potential confounders despite the influence of difficulty in word learning on TMR, we compared parameters of sleep, the pre-sleep memory performance and the vigilance shortly before the post-sleep memory test, revealing no significant group differences (see Table

      S1 and S2). Nevertheless, we cannot rule out that other individual trait factors differed between the groups, such as the individual susceptibility to TMR. To rule out these alternative explanations based on individual factors, we suggest for future research to replicate our study by conducting a within-subject design with cueing of subsets of previously learned low- and high-PP words providing all conditions within the same individuals as shown in other TMR studies (Cairney et al., 2018; Schreiner and Rasch, 2015).

      Comment 11:

      (2) Choice of task

      though the task itself is innovative, there would have been tasks better suited to address the research question. The main disadvantage the task and the operationalisation of memory performance (d') have is that single-trial performance cannot be calculated. Consequently, choosing individual items for TMR is not possible.

      Additionally, TMR of low vs. high difficulty is conducted between subjects (and independently of pre-sleep memory performance) which is a consequence of the task design.

      The motivation for why this task has been used is missing in the paper.

      We used a reward task combined with TMR because previous studies revealed beneficial effects of reward related information on sleep dependent memory consolidation and reactivation (Asfestani et al., 2020; Fischer and Born, 2009; Lansink et al., 2009; Sterpenich et al., 2021). In addition, we wanted to increase the motivation of the participants, as they could receive additional monetary compensation according to their learning and memory task performances. Furthermore, we designed the task, with the overall possibility to translate this task to operant conditioning in rats (see research proposal: https://data.snf.ch/grants/grant/168602). However, the task turned out to be too difficult to translate to rats, whereas we developed a different learning paradigm for the animal study (Klaassen et al., 2021) of this cross-species research project.       

      We added the following sentence to the introduction on p.4, ll. 134-137:

      To consider the beneficial effect of reward related information on sleep dependent memory consolidation and reactivation (Asfestani et al., 2020; Fischer and Born, 2009; Lansink et al., 2009; Sterpenich et al., 2021), we trained healthy young participants to categorize these words into rewarded and unrewarded words to gain and to avoid losses of money points.  

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this study, the authors investigated the effects of targeted memory reactivation (TMR) during sleep on memory retention for artificial words with varying levels of phonotactical similarity to real words. The authors report that the high phonotactic probability (PP) words showed a more pronounced EEG alpha decrease during encoding and were more easily learned than the low PP words. Following TMR during sleep, participants who had been cued with the high PP TMR, remembered those words better than 0, whilst no such difference was found in the other conditions. Accordingly, the authors report higher EEG spindle band power during slow-wave up-states for the high PP as compared to low PP TMR trials. Overall, the authors conclude that artificial words that are easier to learn, benefit more from TMR than those which are difficult to learn.

      Comment 12 & 13:

      Strengths:

      (1) The authors have carefully designed the artificial stimuli to investigate the effectiveness of TMR on words that are easy to learn and difficult to learn due to their levels of similarity with prior wordsound knowledge. Their approach of varying the level of phonotactic probability enables them to have better control over phonotactical familiarity than in a natural language and are thus able to disentangle which properties of word learning contribute to TMR success.

      (2) The use of EEG during wakeful encoding and sleep TMR sheds new light on the neural correlates of high PP vs. low PP both during wakeful encoding and cue-induced retrieval during sleep.

      We thank the reviewer for his/her positive evaluation of our manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      Comment 14:

      (1) The present analyses are based on a small sample and comparisons between participants. Considering that the TMR benefits are based on changes in memory categorization between participants, it could be argued that the individuals in the high PP group were more susceptible to TMR than those in the low PP group for reasons other than the phonotactic probabilities of the stimuli (e.g., these individuals might be more attentive to sounds in the environment during sleep). While the authors acknowledge the small sample size and between-subjects comparison as a limitation, a discussion of an alternative interpretation of the data is missing.

      We agree with the reviewer that the small sample size and the between subject comparisons represent major limitations of our study. We thank the reviewer for this helpful comment and now discussed these limitations in more detail by adding alternative explanations and further suggestions for future research to overcome these limitations.

      We added the following sentences to the discussion on p.14, ll. 465-473: 

      To control for potential confounders despite the influence of difficulty in word learning on TMR, we compared parameters of sleep, the pre-sleep memory performance and the vigilance shortly before the post-sleep memory test, revealing no significant group differences (see Table S1 and S2). Nevertheless, we cannot rule out that other individual trait factors differed between the groups, such as the individual susceptibility to TMR. To rule out these alternative explanations based on individual factors, we suggest for future research to replicate our study by conducting a within-subject design with cueing of subsets of previously learned low- and high-PP words providing all conditions within the same individuals as shown in other TMR studies (Cairney et al., 2018; Schreiner and Rasch, 2015).

      Comment 15:

      (2) While the one-tailed comparison between the high PP condition and 0 is significant, the ANOVA comparing the four conditions (between subjects: cued/non-cued, within-subjects: high/low PP) does not show a significant effect. With a non-significant interaction, I would consider it statistically inappropriate to conduct post-hoc tests comparing the conditions against each other. Furthermore, it is unclear whether the p-values reported for the t-tests have been corrected for multiple comparisons. Thus, these findings should be interpreted with caution.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment giving us the opportunity to correct our analyses and clarify with additional description. Indeed, we investigated at first overnight changes in behavior performance within the four conditions, conducting t-tests against 0 of Δ-values of d' and c-criterion. Whereas for all our statistical analyses the p-value was set at p < 0.05 for two-tailed testing, we did not corrected the p-value of our behavior analyses for multiple comparisons. To investigate subsequently differences between conditions, we conducted additional ANOVAs. We agree with the reviewer that without significant of results of the ANOVA, post-hoc analyses should not be conducted. Taken in account as well the recommendation of reviewer 1, we included now only post-hoc pairwise comparisons when the interaction effect of the ANOVA revealed at least a trend of significance (p < 0.1). 

      We removed the following post-hoc analyses from the results section on p.9, ll. 291-295: 

      Additional post-hoc pairwise comparisons revealed a significant difference between the highPP cued and low-PP uncued (high-PP cued vs. low-PP uncued: t(10) = 2.43, p = 0.04), and no difference to other conditions (high-PP cued vs.: high-PP uncued t(20) = 1.28, p = 0.22; lowPP cued t(20) = 1.57, p = 0.13).  

      Further, we mentioned the lack of correction for multiple comparisons as a limitation of our results in the discussion on p.13, ll. 456-458:  

      The criteria of data analyses were not pre-registered and the p-values of our behavior analyses were not corrected for multiple comparisons.

      We added the following sentences to the methods p.23, ll. 842-849:

      To analyze overnight changes of sleep behavioral data within TMR conditions, we conducted at first dependent sample t-tests against 0 of Δ-values (post-sleep test minus pre-sleep test) of d' and c-criterion (see Fig. 3). Two-way mixed design ANOVAs were computed to compare Δvalues between TMR conditions. After confirming at least a trend of significance (p < 0.1) for the interaction effect, we conducted post-hoc pairwise comparisons by independent and dependent sample t-tests. For all behavior statistical analyses, the p-value was set at p < 0.05 for two-tailed testing. A p-value < 0.1 and > 0.05 was reported as a trend of significance.

      Comment 16:

      (3) With the assumption that the artificial words in the study have different levels of phonotactic similarity to prior word-sound knowledge, it was surprising to find that the phonotactic probabilities were calculated based on an American English lexicon whilst the participants were German speakers. While it may be the case that the between-language lexicons overlap, it would be reassuring to see some evidence of this, as the level of phonotactic probability is a key manipulation in the study.

      We thank the reviewer pointing to the misalignment between the German-speaking participants and the used artificial words based on American English. In line with this recommendation, we added a more outlined argumentation to the manuscript about the assumption of our study that major common phonetic characteristics across both languages are still preserved.       

      We now discussed these aspects on p.14, ll. 473-481:

      Further, we used artificial words based on American English in combination with German speaking participants, whereas language differences of pronunciation and phoneme structures might affect word perception and memory processing (Bohn and Best, 2012). On the other hand, both languages are considered to have the same language family (Eberhard et al., 2019) and the phonological distance between English and German is quite short compared for example to Korean (Luef and Resnik, 2023). Thus, major common phonological characteristics across both languages are still preserved. In addition, our behavior analyses revealed robust word discrimination learning and distinct memory performance according to different levels of phonotactic probabilities providing evidence of successful experimental manipulation. 

      Comment 17:

      (4) Another manipulation in the study is that participants learn whether the words are linked to a monetary reward or not, however, the rationale for this manipulation is unclear. For instance, it is unclear whether the authors expect the reward to interact with the TMR effects.

      We used a reward task combined with TMR because previous studies revealed beneficial effects of reward related information on sleep dependent memory consolidation and reactivation (Asfestani et al., 2020; Fischer and Born, 2009; Lansink et al., 2009; Sterpenich et al., 2021). In addition, we wanted to increase the motivation of the participants, as they could receive additional monetary compensation according to their learning and memory task performances. Furthermore, we designed the task, with the overall possibility to translate this task to operant conditioning in rats (see research proposal: https://data.snf.ch/grants/grant/168602). However, the task turned out to be too difficult to translate to rats, whereas we developed a different learning paradigm for the animal study (Klaassen et al., 2021) of this cross-species research project.       

      We added the following sentence to the introduction on p.4, ll. 134-137:

      To consider the beneficial effect of reward related information on sleep dependent memory consolidation and reactivation (Asfestani et al., 2020; Fischer and Born, 2009; Lansink et al., 2009; Sterpenich et al., 2021), we trained healthy young participants to categorize these words into rewarded and unrewarded words to gain and to avoid losses of money points.  

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Comment 18:

      (1) Please clearly define all linguistics terms - and most importantly the term "phonotactics" - at first use.

      We thank the reviewer for this recommendation and we added the definition of phonotactics and further reduced the diversity of linguistic terms to improve readability. 

      We added the following sentences to the beginning of the introduction on p.3, ll. 72-76:

      One critical characteristic of similarity to pre-existing knowledge in auditory word processing is its speech sound (phoneme) pattern. In phonology as the field of language specific phoneme structures, phonotactics determines the constraints of word phoneme composition of a specific language.

      Comment 19:

      (2) Some critical details about the methods should be included in the Results section to make it comprehensible. For example, the way the crucial differences between G1-4 words should be addressed in the Results, not only in Figure 1.

      According to the recommendation, we added this information to the results section.  We added the following sentences to the results section on p.4, ll. 145-154:

      To study the impact of difficulty in word learning on TMR, we developed a novel learning paradigm. We formed four sets of artificial words (40 words per set; see Table S3 and S4) consisting of different sequences of two vowels and two consonants. Here, we subdivided the alphabet into two groups of consonants (C1: b, c, d, f, g, h, j, k, l, m; C2: n, p, q, r, s, t, v, w, x, z) and vowels (V1: a, e, I; V2: o, u, y). Four-letter-words were created by selecting letters from the vowel and consonant groups according to four different sequences (G1:C1, V1, V2, C2; G2: C1, V1, C2, V2; G3: V1, C1, C2, V2; G4: V1, C1, V2, C2; Fig. 1a; see methods for further details). Comparison analyses between the sets revealed significant differences in phonotactic probability (PP; Fig. 1b; unpaired t-tests: G1 / G2 > G3 / G4, p < 0.005, values of Cohen’s d > 0.71).

      Comment 20

      (3) Was scoring done both online and then verified offline? If so, please note that.

      We included now this information.  

      We adjusted the method section on p.21, ll. 765-769:   

      The sleep stages of NREM 1 to 3 (N1 to N3), wake, and REM sleep were scored offline and manually according to the criteria of the American Academy of Sleep Medicine (AASM) by visual inspection of the signals of the frontal, central, and occipital electrodes over 30s epochs (Iber et al., 2007). Based on offline scoring, we confirmed TMR exposure during N2 and N3 and no significant differences (p-values > 0.05) of sleep parameters between the cueing groups (see Table S2).  

      Comment 21:

      (4) In Figure 2, please arrange the panel letters in an easier-to-read way (e.g., label upper right panel b with a different letter).

      Now we rearranged the panel letters according to the recommendation.

      We adjusted Figure 2 on p.8, ll. 242-258:     

      Comment 22

      (5) In the first paragraph on TMR effects, please note which memory measure you are comparing (i.e., d').

      We added this information according to the recommendation.  

      We adjusted the sentence of the results on p.8, ll. 260-263:

      To examine whether TMR during sleep impacts memory consolidation of discrimination learning with respect to learning difficulty, we calculated the overnight changes by subtracting the pre- from the post-sleep memory performance based on d'-values of the reactivated sequences (cued) and non-reactivated sequences (uncued).

      Comment 23:

      (6) Please show the pre-sleep and post-sleep test scores for both word categories (not only the delta). It may be best to show this as another data point in Fig 2a, but it may be helpful to also see this split between cued and uncued.

      We added the pre-sleep and post-sleep test scores with the individual data points as an additional figure. 

      We added the following figure to the supplementary data on p.28, ll. 936-940:  

      Comment 24:

      (7) In the sentence "An additional two-way mixed design ANOVA on the same values with cueing as a between-subject factor (cued vs. uncued) ...", a more exact phrasing for the last parentheses would probably be "(high-PP-Cued vs Low-PP-Cued)". Both groups were cued.

      We thank the reviewer pointing this out. According to the recommendation, we corrected the descriptions of the two-way mixed design ANOVAs. In addition, we detected a mistake of wrong assignments of the conditions to ANOVAs and corrected the reported values.   

      We adjusted the sentences and corrected the values on p.9, ll. 271-275 and ll. 289-291: 

      An additional two-way mixed design ANOVA on the same values with the factor cueing (cued vs. uncued) as a within-subject factor and group as a between-subject factor revealed trends of significance (p < 0.1) for the interaction (cueing × group: F(1,20) = 3.47, p = 0.08) and the main effect of group (F(1,20) = 3.28, p = 0.09). The main effect of cueing was not significant (F(1,20) = 0.58, p = 0.46).

      An ANOVA on c-criterion changes showed no significant effects (interaction cueing × group: F(1,20) = 2.66, p = 0.12; main effect cueing  F(1,20) = 2.08, p = 0.17; main effect group F(1,20) = 0.38, p = 0.55).

      Comment 25:

      (8) In the same ANOVA, please mention that there is a trend toward an interaction effect. If there wasn't one, the post-hoc comparison would be unwarranted. Please consider noting other p<0.1 pvalues as a trend as well, for consistency.

      Regarding this recommendation, we included now only post-hoc pairwise comparisons after confirming at least a trend toward an interaction effect of these ANOVAs and reported consistently a p-value < 0.1 and > 0.05 as a trend of significance.

      We added the following sentences to the methods p.23, ll. 844-849:

      Two-way mixed design ANOVAs were computed to compare Δ-values between TMR conditions. After confirming at least a trend of significance (p < 0.1) for the interaction effect, we conducted post-hoc pairwise comparisons by independent and dependent sample t-tests. For all behavior statistical analyses, the p-value was set at p < 0.05 for two-tailed testing. A p-value < 0.1 and > 0.05 was reported as a trend of significance.

      We removed the following post-hoc analyses from the results section on p.9, ll. 291-295: 

      Additional post-hoc pairwise comparisons revealed a significant difference between the highPP cued and low-PP uncued (high-PP cued vs. low-PP uncued: t(10) = 2.43, p = 0.04), and no difference to other conditions (high-PP cued vs.: high-PP uncued t(20) = 1.28, p = 0.22; lowPP cued t(20) = 1.57, p = 0.13).          

      Comment 26:      

      (9) Please consider adding an analysis correlating spindle power with memory benefit across participants. Even if it is non-significant, it is important to report given that some studies have found such a relationship.

      According to this recommendation, we conducted an additional correlation analyses.

      We added the following sentences to the manuscript into the results (pp. 10-11, ll. 346-349), the discussion (p.12, ll. 413-417), and the methods (p.23, ll. 864-867):   

      Whereas we found a significant group difference in spindle power nested during SW up-states,   conducting further whole sample (n = 22) correlation analyses between the individual spindle power values of the significant cluster and the overnight changes of behavior measurements revealed no significant correlations (Δ d': r = 0.16, p = 0.48; Δ c-criterion: r = 0.19, p = 0.40).

      In addition to our result of the significant group difference, we failed to find significant correlations between SW nested spindle power values and overnight changes in behavior measurements, whereas previous studies reported associations of SW and spindle activities during sleep with the integration of new memories in pre-existing knowledge networks (Tamminen et al., 2013, 2010).

      By using the same extracted power values (0.3 to 0.8s; 11-14Hz; Pz, P3, P4, O2, P7) per subject, we performed whole sample (n = 22) Pearson correlation analyses between these power values and the overnight changes of behavior measurements of the cued condition (Δ d' and Δ ccriterion).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Choice of task

      Comment 27:      

      In general, I find your task well-designed and novel. In light of your research question, however, I wonder why you chose this task. When you outlined the research question in the introduction, I expected a task similar to Schreiner et al. (2015). For example, participants have to associate high PP words with each other and low PP words. The advantage here would be that you could test the benefits of TMR in a within-subjects design (for example, cueing half of the remembered high and half of the remembered low PP words).

      Please see our previous response at comment 14.    

      Comment 28:

      Why did you decide to introduce a reward manipulation?

      Please see our previous response at comment 11.    

      Comment 29:

      Why did you do the cueing on a category level (cueing all high PP or all low PP words instead of single word cueing or instead of cueing 20 reward high-PP, 20 unrewarded high-PP plus 20 reward low-PP and 20 unrewarded low-PP)? Both alternatives would have provided you the option to run your statistics within participants.

      Please see our previous response at comment 14.    

      Comment 30:

      (2) Between-subjects design and small sample size.

      Why did you decide on a between-subjects design that severely reduces your power?

      Why did you just collect 22 participants with such a design? Were there any reasons for this small sample size? Honestly, I think publishing a TMR study with healthy participants and such a small sample size (11 participants for some comparisons) is not advisable.

      Please see our previous response at comment 14.

      Comment 31:

      (3) Encoding performance.

      Is d' significantly above 0 in the first repetition round? I would assume that the distinction between rewarded and non-rewarded words is just possible after the first round of feedback.

      Indeed, conducting t-tests against 0 revealed significantly increased d'-values in the first repetition round (2nd presentation) in both PP conditions (high-PP: 0.85 ± 0.09, t(32) = 9.17, p < 0.001; low-PP: 0.62 ± 0.09, t(32) = 6.83, p < 0.001).  

      Comment 32:

      (4) Encoding response options

      If you want to you could make it more explicit what exactly the response options are. I assume that one button means a word has a high reward and the other button means a word has a low reward. Making it explicit increases the understanding of the results section.

      Please see our previous response at comment 3.

      Comment 33:           

      (5) Alpha desynchronisation.

      Relative change

      Why did you subtract alpha power during the 1st presentation from alpha power during 2nd and 3rd presentation? You baseline-corrected already and individually included the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd repetition in your behavioural analysis.

      Based on this analysis, we aimed to examine the relative change in alpha power between PP-conditions of memory-relevant word repetitions. Therefore, to extract memory relevant changes of EEG activities, the first word presentation of naive stimulus processing could serve as a more representative baseline condition covering the time-window of interest of 0.7 to 1.9 s after the stimulus onset compared to a baseline condition before stimulus onset (-1 to -0.1s). 

      To explain the rational of the analyses with the baseline condition more clearly, we added this information to the results section on p.7, ll. 222-226: 

      We obtained the changes in power values by subtracting the first from the second and third presentation for the high- and low-PP condition, respectively. Here, the first word presentation of naive stimulus processing served us with a more representative baseline condition covering the time-window of interest of 0.7 to 1.9 s after the stimulus onset to examine relevant changes of encoding.  

      Comment 34:

      (6) Alpha desynchronisation as a neural correlate of encoding depth & difficulty?

      "In addition to the behavior results, these EEG results indicate differences between PP conditions in desynchronization of alpha oscillations, as an assumed neural correlate of encoding depth. In addition to the behavior results, these EEG results indicate differences between PP conditions in desynchronization of alpha oscillations, as an assumed neural correlate of encoding depth."

      Given that the low-PP words are more difficult to learn, I was expecting to see higher alpha desynchronisation in the low-PP relative to the high-PP words. Could you outline in a bit more detail how your findings fit into the literature (e.g., Simon Hanslmayr did a lot of work on this)?

      I would also advise you to add citations e.g., after your sentence in the quote above ("as an assumed neural correlate of encoding depth").

      We thank the reviewer for the recommendation giving us the opportunity to discuss in more detail how our results relate to previous findings. 

      We added additional sentences to the discussion on p.13, ll. 441-455:    

      Additional studies linked alpha desynchronization to cognitive effort and cognitive load (Proskovec et al., 2019; Zhu et al., 2021). So, one could assume to observe higher alpha desynchronization in the more difficult to learn condition of low-PP compared to high-PP. On the other hand numerous studies investigating oscillatory correlates of learning and memory showed that alpha desynchronization is associated with memory across different tasks, modalities and experimental phases of encoding and retrieval (Griffiths et al., 2016, 2021, 2019a, 2019b; Hanslmayr et al., 2009; Michelmann et al., 2016). Strikingly, Griffith and colleagues (Griffiths et al., 2019a) revealed by simultaneous EEG-fMRI recordings a negative correlation between the occurrence of patterns of stimulus-specific information detected by fMRI and cortical alpha/beta suppression. Here, the authors suggested that a decrease of alpha/beta oscillations might represent the neuronal mechanism of unmasking the task-critical signal by simultaneous suppression of task-irrelevant neuronal activities to promote information processing. Following this interpretation, we assume that over the course of learning elevated memory processing of the easier to learn stimuli is associated with enhanced information processing and thus accompanied by higher cortical alpha desynchronization in comparison of the more difficult to learn stimuli.

      In addition, we added the mentioned quote on p.7, ll. 239-240:

      In addition to the behavior results, these EEG results indicate differences between PP conditions in desynchronization of alpha oscillations, as an assumed neural correlate of encoding depth (Griffiths et al., 2021; Hanslmayr et al., 2009).

      Comment 35:

      (7) Exclusion criterion.

      Why did you use a d' > 0.9 as a criterion for data inclusion?

      This criterion ensured that each included subject had at least in one PP-condition a d' > 1.05 of pre-sleep memory performance, which corresponds to a general accuracy rate of 70%. 

      Accordingly, we adjusted these sentences of the method section on p.19, ll. 677-680: 

      Data were excluded from subjects who did not reach the minimal learning performance of d' > 1.05 during the pre-sleep memory test in at least one of the two PP conditions, whereas this threshold value corresponds to accuracy rates of 70% (n = 5). In addition, we excluded one subject who showed a negative d' in one PP condition of the pre-sleep memory test (n = 1). 

      Comment 36:

      (8) Coherence of wording.

      When you talk about your dependent variable (d') you sometimes use sensitivity. I would stick to one term.

      We replaced the word sensitivity with d'.    

      (9) Criterion

      Comment 37:

      Why do you refer to a change in criterion (Figure 3b, axis labels) as a change in memory? Do you think the criterion says something about memory?

      We corrected the axis label of Figure 3b and deleted here the word memory.

      Comment 38:

      Additionally, why did you analyse the effect of TMR on the criterion? Do you expect the criterion to change due to sleep-dependent memory consolidation? This section would benefit from more explanation. Personally, I am very interested in your thoughts and your hypothesis (if you had one, if not that is also fine but then, make it explicit that it was an exploratory analysis).

      By conducting exploratory analyses of overnight changes of the c-criterion measurements, we aimed to examine the bias of decision-making to provide comprehensive data according to the framework of the signal detection theory. Regarding the previous literature showing mainly beneficial effects of sleep on learning and memory, we focused with our hypothesis on d' and explored additionally the c-criterion.

      Despite our task design with gains/hits of +10 money points and losses/FAs of -8 (instead of -10), the subjects showed already during the pre-sleep memory task significant biases towards loss avoidance in both PP conditions (t-tests against 0: high-PP: 0.44 ± 0.07, t(21) = 5.63, p < 0.001; low-PP: 0.47 ± 0.09, t(21) = 5.51, p < 0.001). As already reported in the preprint, we found an additional significant increase of c-criterion by TMR solely for the high-PP words (see Fig. 3b). Even by integrating subjects with poor pre-sleep memory performance (high-PP-cueing group: n = 15; low-PP-cueing group: n = 13), t-tests against 0 revealed a significant increase of the high-PP cueing condition (t(14) = 3.36, p = 0.005) and no significant overnight changes in the other conditions (high-PP uncued: t(12) = 1.39, p = 0.19; low-PP cued: t(12) = 1.47, p = 0.17; low-PP uncued: t(14) = -0.20, p = 0.84). These exploratory findings on c-criterion suggest potential applications of TMR to affect decision-making biases in combination with reward learning.      

      We revised the manuscript mentioning the exploratory character of the c-criterion analyses of the results on p.9, ll. 282-283 and of the discussion on p.12, ll. 400-402:  

      We examined next as an exploratory analysis whether TMR conditions influence biases in decision-making.

      By conducting an additional exploratory analysis, we observed a significant change of the decision bias in the cueing condition of the easy to learn words and no overnight changes in the other conditions.

      Comment 39:

      (10) You detected SWs in the time range of 0-6 sec post sound stimulation. How was the distribution of all detected SW down-states in this time range? (You could plot a histogram for this.)

      We illustrated now the detected SWs in the time range of 0 to 6 s after stimulus onset. 

      We added a histogram to the supplementary section on p.30, ll. 982-986:  

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Comment 40:

      (1) In line with the weakness outlined above, I would recommend including a discussion of how the between-subject comparison and small sample size could affect the results and provide alternative interpretations.

      Please see our previous response at comment 14.

      Comment 41:

      (2) Regarding my point about statistical comparisons, I would recommend that the authors follow best practice guidelines for post-hoc tests and multiple comparisons. In Figures 3a and b, I would also recommend removing the stars indicating significance from the post-hoc tests (if this is what they reflect). Perhaps this link will be useful: https://www.statology.org/anova-post-hoc-tests/

      Please see our previous response at comment 15.    

      Comment 42:

      (3) Furthermore, to address any doubts about the possible phonotactic probability differences between languages, I would recommend that the authors show whether the languages overlap, the level of English fluency in the German-speaking participants, and/or another way of reassuring that this is unlikely to have affected the results.

      Please see our previous response at comment 7.    

      Comment 43:

      (4) In the introduction, I would recommend that the authors outline a clear rationale for the reward/no reward manipulation.

      Please see our previous response at comment 11.    

      Comment 44:

      (5) Figure 1c: Please include what response options participants had, e.g., 'rewarded/not rewarded'. This would make the type of categorization clearer to the reader.

      Please see our previous response at comment 3.

      Comment 45:

      (6) It is unclear whether the additional ANOVA conducted on the time and frequency of the identified clusters included all channels or only the channels contributing to the cluster. Consider clarifying this in the relevant methods and results. Furthermore, I would recommend labelling this as a posthoc test as this analysis was guided by an initial peak at the data and the timings, frequencies, and channels of interest were not selected a-priori.

      We thank the reviewer for this recommendation and labelled the additional repeatedmeasure ANOVA as a post-hoc test. Further, we mentioned the used channels (Pz and Cz) for this analyses.

      We adjusted the results section on p.7, ll. 230-233 and the methods section on p.23, ll. 858-860:            

      A post-hoc repeated-measure ANOVA on alpha power changes (merged over Pz and Cz electrodes) with PP (high vs. low) and presentations (2 to 3) as within-subjects factors revealed a main effect of PP (F(1,32) = 5.42, p = 0.03, η2 = 0.15), and a significant interaction (F(1,32)  = 7.38, p = 0.01, η2 = 0.19; Fig. 2e).

      After confirming the existence of a significant cluster, we conducted an additional post-hoc repeated-measure ANOVA with averaged values of the identified time and frequency range of interest and merged over the Pz and Cz electrodes (see Fig. 2e).

      Comment 46:

      (7) Figure 3: To better illustrate within- vs. between-subjects comparisons and promote transparency, please add individual points and lines between the within-subjects conditions.

      According to this recommendation, we changed Figure 3 to add the individual data points by lines.  

      We modified Figure 3 on p.9, ll. 299-303:  

      Comment 47:

      (8) For the SW density time-bin analyses, please include statistics for all comparisons (i.e., through 0 s to 3 s) and say whether these were corrected for multiple comparisons.

      According to this recommendation, we included now statistics for all comparisons. 

      We added table S6 table to the supplementary data on p.29, l.962:     

      Comment 48:

      (9) Consider reporting effect sizes.

      We thank the reviewer for this recommendation and we added now effect sizes of significant results. 

      Comment 49:

      (10) For transparency and replicability, consider including a list of the four stimulus sets including their phoneme and biphone probabilities.

      We included a list of the four stimulus sets with their phoneme and biphone probabilities  

      We added table S3 and table S4 to the supplementary data on pp. 26-27:       

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    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      In this study, the researchers aimed to investigate the cellular landscape and cell-cell interactions in cavernous tissues under diabetic conditions, specifically focusing on erectile dysfunction (ED). They employed single-cell RNA sequencing to analyze gene expression patterns in various cell types within the cavernous tissues of diabetic individuals. The researchers identified decreased expression of genes associated with collagen or extracellular matrix organization and angiogenesis in several cell types, including fibroblasts, chondrocytes, myofibroblasts, valve-related lymphatic endothelial cells, and pericytes. They also discovered a newly identified marker, LBH, that distinguishes pericytes from smooth muscle cells in mouse and human cavernous tissues. Furthermore, the study revealed that pericytes play a role in angiogenesis, adhesion, and migration by communicating with other cell types within the corpus cavernosum. However, these interactions were found to be significantly reduced under diabetic conditions. The study also investigated the role of LBH and its interactions with other proteins (CRYAB and VIM) in maintaining pericyte function and highlighted their potential involvement in regulating neurovascular regeneration. Overall, the manuscript is well-written and the study provides novel insights into the pathogenesis of ED in patients with diabetes and identifies potential therapeutic targets for further investigation.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary: In this manuscript, the authors performed single cell RNA-sequencing of cells from the penises of healthy and diabetes mellitus model (STZ injection-based) mice, identified Lbh as a marker of penis pericytes, and report that penis-specific overexpression of Lbh is sufficient to rescue erectile function in diabetic animals. In public human single cell RNA-sea datasets, the authors report that LBH is similarly specific to pericytes and down regulated in diabetic patients. Additionally, the authors report discovery of CRYAB and VIM1 as protein interacting partners with LBH.

      The authors contributions are of interest to the erectile dysfunction community and their Lbh overexpression experiments are especially interesting and well-conducted. However, claims in the manuscript regarding the specificity of Lbh as a pericyte marker, the mechanism by which Lbh overexpression rescues erectile function, cell-cell interactions impaired by diabetes, and protein-interaction partners require qualification or further evidence to justify.

      Major claims and evidence:

      1) Marker gene specificity and quantification: One of the authors' major contributions is the identification of Lbh as a marker of pericytes in their data. The authors present qualitative evidence for this marker gene relationship, but it is unclear from the data presented if Lbh is truly a specific marker gene for the pericyte lineage (either based on gene expression or IF presented in Fig. 2D, E). Prior results (see Tabula Muris Consortium, 2018) suggest that Lbh is widely expressed in non-pericyte cell types, so the claims presented in the manuscript may be overly broad. Even if Lbh is not a globally specific marker, the authors' subsequent intervention experiments argue that it is still an important gene worth studying.

      Answer: We appreciate this comment. In our scRNAseq data for the mouse cavernosum tissues, previously known markers such as Rgs5, Pdgfrb, Cspg4, Kcnj8, Higd1b, and Cox4i2 were found to be expressed not exclusively in pericytes, while Lbh exhibited specific expression patterns in pericytes (Fig. 2 and Supplementary Fig. 5). LBH expression was easily distinguishable from α-SMA, not only in mouse cavernosum but also in dorsal artery and dorsal vein tissues within penile tissues. This distinctive expression pattern of LBH was also observed in the human cavernous pericytes (Fig. 5). Then, we examined Lbh expression patterns in various mouse tissues using the mouse single-cell atlas (Tabula Muris), although endothelial and pericyte clusters were not subclustered in most tissues from Tabula Muris. To identify pericytes, we relied on the expression pattern of known marker genes (Pecam1 for endothelial cells, Rgs5, Pdgfrb, and Cspg4 for pericytes). Lbh was expressed in pericytes of the bladder, heart and aorta, kidney, and trachea but not as specifically in penile pericytes (Supplementary Fig. 6A-D). However, it is worth noting that other known pericyte markers were also did not exhibit exclusive expression in pericytes across all the tissues we analyzed. Therefore, in certain tissues, particularly in mouse penile tissues, Lbh may be a valuable marker in conjunction with other established pericyte marker genes for distinguishing pericytes.

      2) Cell-cell communication and regulon activity changes in the diabetic penis: The authors present cell-cell communication analysis and TF regulon analysis in Fig 3 and report differential activities in healthy and DM mice. These results are certainly interesting, however, no statistical analyses are performed to justify claimed changes in the disease state and no validations are performed. It is therefore challenging to interpret these results, and the relevant claims do not seem well supported.

      Answer: In response to these helpful suggestions, we calculated statistical significance and performed experimental validation. CellphoneDB permutes the cluster labels of all cells 1000 times and calculates the mean(mean(molecule 1 in cluster X), mean(molecule 2 in cluster Y)) at each time for each interaction pair, for each pairwise comparison between two cell types. We only considered interactions in which the difference in means calculated by these permutations were greater than 0.25-fold between diabetes and normal. Also, we considered that the interactions with P-value < 0.05 were significant.

      To assess differential regulon activities of transcription factor (SCENIC) between diabetic and normal pericytes, we utilized a generalized linear model with scaled activity scores for each cell as input. These scaled regulon activity values for angiogenesis-related TFs exhibited differences between diabetic and normal pericytes. The results of the generalized linear model revealed that Klf5, Egr1, and Junb were TFs with significantly altered regulon activities in diabetic pericytes. Experimental data indicated that the expression level of Lmo2, Junb, Elk1, and Hoxd10 was higher (Hoxd10) or lower (Lmo2, Junb, Elk1) in diabetic pericytes compared to normal pericytes (Supplementary Fig. 9). We have added the scaled regulon activity values and statistical significance in Fig. 3E.

      3) Rescue of ED by Lbh overexpression: This is a striking and very interesting result that warrants attention. By simple overexpression of the pericyte marker gene Lbh, the authors report rescue of erectile function in diabetic animals. While mechanistic details are lacking, the phenomenon appears to have a large effect size and the experiments appear sophisticated and well conducted. If anything, the authors appear to underplay the magnitude of this result.

      Answer: We appreciate this comment. Therefore, we have added relevant clarification in the revised manuscript discussion section to emphasize the importance of LBH overexpression on rescuing ED as follows: “To test our hypothesis, we utilized the diabetes-induced ED mouse model, commonly employed in various studies focusing on microvascular complications associated with type 1 diabetes. We observed that the overexpression of LBH in diabetic mice led to the restoration of reduced erectile function by enhancing neurovascular regeneration. However, this study primarily demonstrated the observed phenomenon without delving into the detailed mechanisms. Nonetheless, these results of LBH on erections provide us with new strategies for treating ED and should be of considerable concern.” (Please see revised ‘Discussion’)

      4) Mechanistic claims for rescue of ED by Lbh overexpression: The authors claim that cell type-specific effects on MPCs are responsible for the rescue of erectile function induced by Lbh overexpression. This causal claim is unsupported by the data, which only show that Lbh overexpression influences MPC performance. In vivo, it's likely that Lbh is being over expressed by diverse cell types, any of which could be the causal driver of ED rescue. In fact, the authors report rescue of cell type abundance in endothelial cells and neuronal cells. Therefore, it cannot be concluded that MPC effects alone or in principal are responsible for ED rescue.

      Answer: We agree with these claims. Therefore, we have added relevant clarifications in the discussion section of the revised manuscript. Our findings suggest that LBH can affect the function of cavernous pericytes, although we cannot definitively specify which particular cavernous cell types are affected by the overexpressed LBH, whether it be cavernous endothelial cells, smooth muscle cells, or others. Subsequent research will be required to conduct more comprehensive mechanistic investigations, such as in vitro studies using cavernous endothelial cells, smooth muscle cells, and fibroblasts to address these knowledge gaps. (Please see revised ‘Discussion’)

      5) Protein interaction data: The authors claim that CRYAB and VIM1 are novel interacting partners of LBH. However, the evidence presented (2 blots in Fig. 6A,B) lack the relevant controls. It is possible that CRYAB and VIM1 are cross-reactive with the anti-LBH antibody or were not washed out completely. The abundance of bands on the Coomassie stain in Fig. 6A suggests that either event is plausible. Therefore, the evidence presented is insufficient to support the claim that CRYAB and VIM1 are protein interacting partners of LBH.

      Answer: We agree with these claims. Therefore, we have added the relevant controls(Input) and performed Co-IP (IP: CRYAB or VIM, WB: LBH) to demonstrate CRYAB and VIM1 are not simply cross-reactive antigens to their LBH antibody. Our results show that we can detect the expression of CRYAB and VIM after LBH IP, and we also detect the expression of LBH after CRYAB and VIM IP. In addition, it can be seen from our results that the binding of LBH to VIM is higher than that of CRYAB. Regardless, these results indicate that the binding of CRYAB or VIM to LBH is not a random phenomenon. (Please see revised ‘Result’ and ‘Figure 6B’)

      Impact: These data will trigger interest in Lbh as a target gene within the erectile dysfunction community.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Bae et al. described the key roles of pericytes in cavernous tissues in diabetic erectile dysfunction using both mouse and human single-cell transcriptomic analysis. Erectile dysfunction (ED) is caused by dysfunction of the cavernous tissue and affects a significant proportion of men aged 40-70. The most common treatment for ED is phosphodiesterase 5 inhibitors; however, these are less effective in patients with diabetic ED. Therefore, there is an unmet need for a better understanding of the cavernous microenvironment, cell-cell communications in patients with diabetic ED, and the development of new therapeutic treatments to improve the quality of life.

      Pericytes are mesenchymal-derived mural cells that directly interact with capillary endothelial cells (ECs). They play a vital role in the pathogenesis of erectile function as their interactions with ECs are essential for penile erection. Loss of pericytes has been associated with diabetic retinopathy, cancer, and Alzheimer's disease and has been investigated in relation to the permeability of cavernous blood vessels and neurovascular regeneration in the authors' previous studies. This manuscript explores the mechanisms underlying the effect of diabetes on pericyte dysfunction in ED. Additionally, the cellular landscape of cavernous tissues and cell type-specific transcriptional changes were carefully examined using both mouse and human single-cell RNA sequencing in diabetic ED. The novelty of this work lies in the identification of a newly identified pericyte (PC)-specific marker, LBH, in mouse and human cavernous tissues, which distinguishes pericytes from smooth muscle cells. LBH not only serves as a cavernous pericyte marker, but its expression level is also reduced in diabetic conditions. The LBH-interacting proteins (Cryab and Vim) were further identified in mouse cavernous pericytes, indicating that these signaling interactions are critical for maintaining normal pericyte function. Overall, this study demonstrates the novel marker of pericytes and highlights the critical role of pericytes in diabetic ED.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      1) The methods are poorly written. It lacks specific information on the sample size, experimental design, and data analysis methods employed. The absence of these crucial details makes it difficult to evaluate the robustness and reliability of the findings.

      Answer: We agree with the reviewer’s suggestion, now we revised the methods of our manuscript, and added detailed information or references. For sample size we have added detailed information in Figure legend (Please see revised ‘Method’ , Figure Legend, and Supplementary information.)

      2) The cell number in the scRNA-seq analysis is small (~12000) and some minor cell types are probably underrepresented. It is not clear whether the authors pooled the cells from different mice as one sample, or replicates in different groups have been included. It will be helpful to label different samples in the UMAP. The authors should repeat the experiments with more replicates to increase the cell number and validate the findings.

      Answer: We understand the reviewer's concern, but due to the small size of mouse penile tissue, we had to pool 5 corpus cavernosum tissues for each group (using pooled samples) for scRNA-seq analysis. Moreover, owing to the unique nature of mouse penile tissue, which is highly resistant, it posed challenges for the dissolution and isolation of single cells using conventional single-cell separation methods. Consequently, we had to increase the concentration of the enzyme to finally obtain 12,894 cells. Rather than conducting a repetitive scRNAseq analysis on the same mouse model, we validated our findings in human cavernous single-cell transcriptome data. This analysis allowed us to confirm the presence of pericyte in human corpus cavernosum, specific expression of LBH in human cavernous pericytes, and the identification of relevant GO terms associated with pericyte functions (Figure 5). We have add these information in ‘Method’ (Please see revised ‘Method’).

      3) Functional studies are lacking to justify how manipulating LBH expression or its interacting proteins might lead to effective therapeutic approaches for diabetic ED.

      Answer: We have performed the functional study to evaluate LBH expression might lead to effective therapeutic approaches for diabetic ED as showed in Figure 4G. Assessment of intracavernous pressure (ICP) is the most representative test for evaluating erectile function. Therefore, we modulated LBH expression in the penis of diabetic mice and assessed the erectile function of the mice by intracavernous pressure. However, we have not performed ICP studies and relative in vitro studies (migration, survival experiment) to assess whether LBH-interacting proteins have the same effect.

      4) Although the abstract identifies novel targets for potential interventions, such as LBH and its interacting proteins, the clinical relevance of these findings remains uncertain. The authors should include a discussion regarding the translation of these discoveries into therapeutic strategies or their potential impact on patients with diabetes and ED.

      Answer: We appreciate the reviewer's suggestion and have added a discussion as per the reviewer’s recommendation (Please see revised ‘Discussion’).

      5) While the study highlights the importance of pericytes in penile erection, it fails to mention the broader context of other cell types involved in the pathogenesis of ED. Neglecting to discuss potential contributions from endothelial cells, smooth muscle cells, or neural elements limits the comprehensive understanding of the cellular interactions underlying diabetic ED.

      Answer: We agree with the reviewer's suggestion and have added a discussion regarding the significance of other cell populations in penile tissues, such as endothelial cells, smooth muscle cells fibroblasts, and neural elements, along with the rationale for our focus on pericytes. (Please see revised ‘Discussion’).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      We congratulate the authors on an interesting study. We were especially excited to see their Lbh overexpression results. However, we felt other claims in the paper could benefit from additional investigation, analysis, and statistical rigor. We have provided a set of suggestions for improvement below.

      Major points:

      1) Pericyte marker gene proposal: See public review for commentary on the following suggested experiments. The authors should perform binary classification analysis using Lbh and report the performance of this gene as a marker (e.g. using the area under the receiver operating characteristic, accuracy, precision and recall). Further, they should consider performing this analysis for all other genes in their data to determine whether Lbh is the best marker gene.

      Answer: We appreciate this comment. AUC scores of Rgs5, Pln, Ednra, Npylr, Atp1b2, and Gpc3 for ability of a binary classifier to distinguish between pericyte and the other cell types in mouse penile tissues were measured by using FindMarkers function. Rgs5 had the highest AUC, but Rgs5 was also expressed in SMCs in our data. Pln, Ednra, Gpc3, and Npy1r also seemed to be candidate markers, but the literature search excluded these genes as they are also expressed in the SMCs of other tissues or different cell types. The AUC score of Lbh was over 0.7, and expression in SMC was not identified in previous studies, and ultimately, we experimentally identified that Lbh is penis pericyte specific. We have added this to the manuscript.

      Author response table 1.

      Robust differential expression analysis should also be performed for this gene (if not all) and the statistics should be reported, given known issues with the statistical approach used by the authors for differential expression (see: Squair 2021, 10.1038/s41467-021-25960-2). The authors' should also report the number of cells involved in these comparisons, as the number of pericytes in the data (Fig 1B) appears quite small.

      Answer: We appreciate this comment. We used “MAST” to identify differentially expressed genes. This test is often used to find DEGs in single-cell RNA data. However, because the pseudobulk method has advantages over the single cell DEG method (Squair 2021, 10.1038/s41467-021-25960-2), we additionally performed DEG analysis with DESeq2 to confirm whether Lbh can distinguish pericytes from other cell types in the penile. As a result, even when tested with DESeq2, Lbh expression was significantly higher in pericytes than in other cell types in penile (adjusted p-value = 2.694475e-07 in Pericyte vs SMC, adjusted P-value = 3.700118e-58 in Pericyte vs the other cell types). Mouse penile tissue is small in size, and the number of pericytes in mouse penile tissue is relatively smaller compared to fibroblasts and chondrocytes. In our mouse penile scRNAseq data, the number of pericytes is as follows: normal: 58, diabetes: 116. Despite the limited number of cells, we were able to establish statistical significance in our analyses.

      Immunostaining results in Fig. 2D, E should likewise be quantified. At present, it's unclear that LBH and aSMA are mutually exclusive as claimed. The authors should also investigate Lbh expression in public single cell genomics data, rather than performing candidate gene literature searches. For example, the Tabula Muris suggests Lbh is expressed widely outside pericytes.

      Answer: For Figure 2D and E, the aim of these analyses was to assess the distribution of LBH and other cellular markers to see if they overlap and if they can be distinguished. We think that some of the overlapping staining in the tissue may be caused by multilayered cellular structures, so staining within cells would be more convincing. Therefore, we quantified the percentage of LBH- or α-SMA-expressed pericytes and relative expression in smooth muscle cells in cell staining (Supplementary Fig. 5E). We found that only 3% of smooth muscle cells expressed LBH, 67% of mouse cavernous pericytes (MCPs) expressed α-SMA, and more than 97% of MCPs expressed LBH. Therefore, these results may illustrate the specific expression of LBH in MCPs. These information was added as ‘Supplementary Fig. 5E’ (Please see revised ‘Supplementary information’). We also examined Lbh expression patterns in various mouse tissues using the public mouse single-cell atlas (Tabula Muris), and provided a detailed response in reviewer 2’s public review 1.

      Even if Lbh is not the best marker, the authors' intervention experiment still motivates study of the gene, but these analyses would help contextualize the result for readers.

      2) Statistical anslyses for cell-cell communication and TF regulon analysis: See public review for context on these comments. The authors should perform statistical tests to evaluate the significance of differences detected for each of these analysis. For example, generalized linear models can be used to assess the significance of TF regulon activity scores from SCENIC, and permutation tests can be used to measure the significance of cell-cell interaction score changes. Without these statistical tests, it's challenging for a reader to interpret whether the results reported are meaningful or within the realm of experimental noise.

      Answer: We appreciate this comment. We calculated statistical significance TF regulon analyses as suggested by the reviewer and described a detailed statistical calculation method for cell-cell communication. We provided a detailed response in reviewer 2’s public review 2.

      3) Mechanism of ED rescue by Lbh overexpression: To support this claim, the authors would need to perform an experiment where Lbh is over expressed specifically in MPCs (using e.g. a specific promoter on their LTV construct, or a transgenic line with a cell type-specific Cre-Lox system). Absent these data, the claim should be removed.

      Answer: We agree with the reviewer's suggestion and we have reworked the claim that ‘LBH overexpression is affected by pericytes during ED recovery’ and have added relevant clarification in the Discussion section to clearly state that LBH overexpression may affect many cavernosum cells, such as cavernous endothelial cells, smooth muscle cells, fibroblasts, and pericytes (Please see revised ‘Result’ and ‘Discussion’)

      4) Protein interaction claims: This experiment would require that the authors perform a similar pull-down with LBH KO cells and or a reciprocal Co-IP (e.g. IP: CRYAB or VIM1, WB: LBH) to demonstrate CRYAB and VIM1 are not simply cross-reactive antigens to their LBH antibody. Further, these experiments appear to only have a single replicate for each condition. The authors should either remove associated claims, or perform a Co-IP experiment with the relevant controls with sufficient replication.

      Answer: We agree with the claims. Therefore, we have included the necessary controls (Input) and performed Co-IP (IP: CRYAB or VIM1, WB: LBH) to demonstrate that CRYAB and VIM1 are not simply cross-reactive antigens to their LBH antibody. Our results show that we can detect the expression of CRYAB and VIM after LBH IP, and we also detect the expression of LBH after CRYAB and VIM IP. In addition, it can be seen from our results that the binding of LBH to VIM is higher than that of CRYAB. Regardless, these results indicate that the binding of CRYAB or VIM to LBH is not a random phenomenon. Additionally, all IP experiments were replicated at least three times. (Please see revised ‘Result’ and ‘Figure 6B’)

      Minor Points:

      • The reference "especially in men" on line 56 seems odd given that only males can experience penile erectile dysfunction.

      Answer: We agree with the reviewer's suggestion and have removed the description 'especially male' (Please see revised ‘Introduction’)

      • Line 109, it's unclear what genes showed altered expression in Schwann cells.

      Answer: We apologize for the confusion. There was no significant differentially expressed genes between normal and diabetes in Schwann cells. We revised this part in the manuscript. (Schwann cells showed an increased expression compared to normal cells in diabetes, though not significant. In Schwann cells, there were no significant DEGs between diabetic and normal cells.)

      • It would be helpful for readers to see an analysis of the cell types that are transduced in the Lbh overexpression experiment in vivo. At present, some pericyte specificity is implied, but not demonstrated.

      Answer: We appreciate this comment. Our findings suggest that LBH can affect the function of cavernous pericytes, although we cannot definitively conclude which specific-cavernous cell types are affected by the overexpressed LBH, whether it be cavernous endothelial cells, smooth muscle cells, or others. Subsequent research will be required to conduct more comprehensive mechanistic investigations, such as in vitro studies using cavernous endothelial cells, smooth muscle cells, and fibroblasts to address these knowledge gaps. These were also mentioned in the manuscript.

      • To improve clarity and enhance readability, define abbreviations before their initial usage in the text. For instance, in the second paragraph of the Introduction, the abbreviation 'ECs' is used without prior definition. It can be inferred that it is referring to endothelial cells, mentioned in parentheses in the subsequent sentence.

      Answer: We agree with the reviewer's suggestion to expand acronyms and ensure that all acronyms are defined in the revised manuscript before they are used for the first time in the text (Please see revised Manuscript).

      • It is important to include relevant references that align with the content being discussed. For example, in the Introduction, pericytes are described as being involved in various processes such as angiogenesis, vasoconstriction, and permeability. The text refers to a single reverence, a review by Gerhardt and Besholtz, which primarily focuses on pericyte's role in regulating angiogenesis. Adding additional sources, such as the review by Bergers and Song (Neuro Oncol., 2005) is recommended.

      Answer: We agree with the reviewer's suggestion, and have added the reference as reviewer recommended (Please see revised Manuscript and reference).

      • Figure 3E: it is stated that a panel of 53 angiogenesis factors were tested, it is stated that only MMP3 showed increased expression. However, various unlabeled spots appear to show changed expression patterns. It would be helpful to show a summary graph with the relative intensities of the full array of factors tested.

      Answer: We agree with the reviewer’s suggestion, now we showed all spots density in angiogenesis array as Supplementary Table 1. The condition of the spots we selected was that the expression density was at least above 1500, and the change ratio was greater than 1.2. (Please see revised ‘Supplementary information’)

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Detailed statistical power calculation

      Data availability statement( were both mouse and human scRNA deposited in GEO with a taken and when will they be released to the public?)

      Answer: Human scRNA data have been deposited in GEO under accession number GSE206528. Our mouse scRNA dataset has been uploaded to KoNA and is available for download (https://www.kobic.re.kr/kona/review?encrypt_url=amlod2FucGFya3xLQUQyMzAxMDEz)

      Major concerns about this work

      1) The single cell RNAseq data collected for mouse diabetic ED(Fig 1B), FB are the most abundant cell population compared to PC, EC, SMC and other clusters. The rationale for studying FB clusters (in Figure 1, D-F) instead of PC cluster is unclear. Which cluster DEG did the authors annotate for Fig 1G-H?

      Answer: We understand the reviewer's suggestion and confusion. Although other major cell populations in penile tissue such as smooth muscle cells, endothelial cell, and fibroblasts have been extensively studied, pericytes have mainly been investigated in the context of the central nervous system (CNS). For example, in the CNS, pericytes are involved in maintaining the integrity of the brain's blood-brain barrier (BBB) [PMID: 27916653], regulating blood flow at capillary junctions [PMID: 33051294], and promoting neuroinflammatory processes [PMID: 31316352], whose dysfunction is considered an important factor in the progression of vascular diseases such as Alzheimer's disease [PMID: 24946075]. But little is known about the role of pericytes in penile tissue [PMID: 35865945; PMID: 36009395; PMID: 26044953]. In order to explore the role of pericytes in repairing the corpus cavernosum vascular and neural tissues damaged by DM, we focused on pericytes, which are multipotent perivascular cells that contribute to the generation and repair of various tissues in response to injury. Although recent studies have shown that pericytes are involved in physiological mechanisms of erection, little is known about their detailed mechanisms. We have also added this rationale in discussion.

      Single cell level study has not been conducted in mouse penile tissues. Therefore, before delving into pericytes, we aimed to identify overall transcriptome differences between normal and diabetic conditions in mouse penile tissues. We presented the analyses of FB, which make up the largest proportion among the cell types in the mouse penis, in Fig. 1D-F. The analysis of other cell types is provided in Supplementary Fig. 1-4. Fig. 1G-H are GO terms for Fibroblasts clusters. We added this information in the figure.

      2) Fig 2 is the critical data to show Lbh is a cavernous PC specific marker. More PC violin plots to identify PC cluster such as Cspg4, Kcnj8, Higd1b, Cox4i2 and more SMC violin plots to identify SMC cluster such as Acta2, Myh11, Tagln, Actg2 should be used for inclusion and exclusion of PC( the same concern applied to human scRNAseq in Fig 5B).

      Answer: We appreciate this comment. We examined the expression of other marker genes of pericytes and SMCs. Although some marker genes were rarely expressed in the mouse penis data (Kcnj8, Higd1b), the expression of marker genes tended to be relatively high in each cluster. The expression of Cspg4 and Cox4i2 was higher in pericytes than in SMCs, while the expression of Acta2, Myh11,and Tagln was higher in SMCs than in pericytes. Actag2 was specifically expressed in SMCs. Through the gene set enrichment test as well as the expression of known cell type marker genes, we identified that the annotation of pericyte and SMC was appropriate (Fig. 2B and Fig. 5C). We added the violin plots of these marker genes in Supplementary Fig. 5.

      Author response image 1.

      (Mouse)

      In human penis data, ACTA2 and MYH11 were expressed in SMCs, pericytes, and myofibroblasts, as in the previous paper [PMID: 35879305]. Among pericyte markers, the number of cells expressing KCNJ8 and HIGD1B was small. The cluster we annotated as pericyte was double positive for pericyte markers CSPG4 and COX4I2. ACTG2, a marker for SMC, was expressed more highly in SMC than in pericytes and myofibroblasts. As in the mouse penis data, we identified that the annotation of each cell type was appropriate through the gene set enrichment test in the human penis data. We added the violin plots of CSPG4, COX4I2, and ACTG2 in Supplementary Fig. 11.

      Author response image 2.

      (Human)

      When exploring Lbh expression levels in "Database of gene expression in adult mouse brain and lung vascular and perivascular cells" from https://betsholtzlab.org/VascularSingleCells/database.html, Lbh is not uniquely expressed in PC, suggesting its tissue-specific expression level. This difference should be discussed in the Discussion section.

      Answer: We appreciate this valuable comment. For the answer to this comment, we extensively analyzed Lbh expression patterns in various mouse tissues using the public mouse single-cell atlas (Tabula Muris) as also suggested by Reviewer 2. Please see our detailed response in reviewer 2’s public review 1.

      3) In prior studies on PC morphology and location (PMID: 21839917), they reside in capillaries (diameter less than 10um) or distal vessels (diameter less than 25um) and have oval cell body and long processes. Due to the non-specificity of Pdgfrb, SMC are positive for Pdgfrb staining (this has been shown in many publications that SMC are Pdgfrb+; unfortunately, NG2 antibody also stains for both PC and SMC). Therefore, the LBH immunostaining (in Fig 2D and 2E of large-sized vessels) are very likely for SMC identity, not PC. PC should be in close contact with CD31+ ECs in healthy conditions. The LBH immunostaining of PC in both mouse and human tissues (Fig 4) must be replaced and better characterized.

      Answer: We agree with the reviewer's suggestion. As it is widely known, peicytes are primarily located in capillaries, where they surround endothelial cells of blood vessels. However, recent discoveries have identified cells with pericyte-like characteristics in the walls of large blood vessels, challenging the traditional concept [PMID: 27268036]. In our study, we observed minimal overlap in staining between LBH and α-SMA, suggesting that the cells expressing LBH were not smooth muscle cells but possibly pericyte-like cells in large vessels. In small vessels within the bladder, kidney, and even the aorta, we found LBH-expressing cells surrounding CD31-expressing vessels, consistent with the known characteristics of pericytes. Further research is needed to comprehend the differences in LBH expression and its characteristics in both large and small blood vessels. We have added discussions and references for this issue (Please see revised ‘Discussion’ and ‘Reference’)

      4) How do mouse cavernous pericytes isolate? How is purity?

      Answer: As the reviewer points out, we isolated mouse spongiform pericytes following our and other previously published methods. We used pigment epithelium-derived factor (PEDF), which removes non-pericytic cells [PMID: 30929324, 23493068]. Although there are no purity study results such as FACS, other staining results thoroughly support the notion that this method yields pericytes with a notably high level of purity. (Please see ‘Method’ section).

      5) Can mouse scRNAseq cell-cell communication in Fig 3 be reproducible in human scRNAseq cell-cell communication? The results in human ED are more clinically significant than in mouse data.

      Answer: In human scRNAseq data, the difference between angiogenesis-related interactions between normal and diabetes was not as significant as that in mouse data. Because the cell type composition of the human and mouse penis is not completely identical, there are limitations in comparing cell-cell interactions. However, in the human penis data, some interactions related to angiogenesis between pericytes and other cell types were decreased in diabetes compared to normal (boxed parts).

      Author response image 3.

      6) Fibroblasts also express Vim. Murine PC VIM/CRYAB( should be written as Vim/Cryab as mouse proteins) direct interaction with Lbh is unclear from Lbh IP as Fig 6A red boxes showed a wide range of sizes. Where is the band for Lbh? Do human PC LBH interact with VIM/CRYAB?

      Answer: We agree with the reviewer's comment. VIM is a type III intermediate filament protein expressed in many cell types. We have added the relevant controls (Input) and performed Co-IP (IP: CRYAB or VIM, WB: LBH) to demonstrate CRYAB and VIM are not simply cross-reactive antigens to their LBH antibody. In western blot study, the LBH band was expressed between 35 kDa-48 kDa. From Figure 6A, we detected CRYAB in band 1 and VIM in bands 2 and 3. This may be due to the formation of dimers or multimers by VIM. We did not use human PCs for IP studies because IP requires large amounts of protein, making IP studies using human pericyte challenging. Nevertheless, the interaction between LBH and CRYAB in humans has been reported through fluorescent resonance energy transfer assay and affinity chromatography technology assay [PMID:34000384, PMID:20587334].

      7) In Fig 6H and I, why does CRYAB expression significantly reduce in vitro and in vivo under diabetic conditions, whereas VIM expression significantly increases?

      Answer: As the reviewer pointed out, and we have discussed on this issue in the manuscript, CRYAB is known to promote angiogenesis. Diabetes reduces CRYAB expression, so angiogenesis may be impaired. Furthermore, since VIM is a multifunctional protein, it interacts with several other proteins with multiple functions under various pathophysiological conditions. There are many relevant literatures showing that VIM expression is increased under diabetic conditions [PMID: 28348116 and PMID: 32557212]. And VIM deficiency protects against obesity and insulin resistance in patients with type 2 diabetes. Therefore, we hypothesize that exogenous LBH may have the ability to bind to the increased VIM in diabetic conditions and inactivate the effects of VIM. Thereby achieving the protective effect. This needs to be proved in further studies.

      8) The therapeutic strategies targeting (Lbh-Cryab-Vim) on mouse diabetic ED model is not investigated and need to be further validated and discussed.

      Answer: As the reviewers pointed out, in this study, we did not evaluate the targeted therapeutic strategy for LBH-CRYAB-VIM in a mouse diabetic ED model. We only identified the binding potential of these three proteins. Evaluation of this treatment strategy requires further study. For example, we can employ shRNA lentivirus, either alone or in combination, to downregulate CRYABexpression [PMID: 31612679] in normal mice, utilize a lentiviral vector CMV-GFP-puro-vimentin to overexpress Vimentin [PMID: 36912679], and then treat it with LBH to evaluate whether the LBH effect still exists (in vivo erectile function study and in vitro angiogenesis assay). We include this information in the Discussion section as a limitation of this study (Please see revised ‘Discussion’).

      9) The Discussion of current knowledge of pericytes in diabetic ED and other diseases and the significance of this study as well as clinical implications, should be expanded.

      Answer: As the reviewers pointed out, we have expanded the current knowledge of pericytes in diabetic ED and other diseases (CNS disease) and clinical implications as follows: “Although other major cell populations in penile tissue such as smooth muscle cells, endothelial cell, and fibroblasts have been extensively studied, pericytes have mainly been investigated in the context of the central nervous system (CNS). For example, in the CNS, pericytes are involved in maintaining the integrity of the brain's blood-brain barrier (BBB), regulating blood flow at capillary junctions, and promoting neuroinflammatory processes, whose dysfunction is considered an important factor in the progression of vascular diseases such as Alzheimer's disease. But little is known about the role of pericytes in penile tissue.” (Please see revised ‘Discussion’).

      10) How many clinical samples were used? How many times did each experiment repeat?

      Answer: As the reviewers pointed out, the clinical samples’ information was added in ‘method’ section. A total four human samples were used in this study (‘human corpus cavernosum tissues were obtained from two patients with congenital penile curvature (59-year-old and 47-year-old) who had normal erectile function during reconstructive penile surgery and two patients with diabetic ED (69-year-old and 56-year-old) during penile prosthesis implantation.’). For in vivo study, we quantified four different fields from human samples.

      Minor concerns

      1) Fig 1A, why normal mouse's body size is the same as DM?

      Answer: As the reviewer pointed out, in Figure 1A, while the size of normal mice and DM mice may not appear significantly different, there are indeed notable difference in body weight and size. The normal mice body weigh we used was about 30 grams, while DM mice body weigh was generally less than 24 grams. We found that we missed information on physiological and metabolic parameters from in vivo studies (ICP function study). Therefore, we have added it in Supplementary Table 2 (Please see revised ‘Supplementary information’)

      2) The label and negative, and positive controls for Fig 6B are missing.

      Answer: We thank for pointing out this. We have added the relevant controls (Input) and performed Co-IP (IP: CRYAB or VIM1, WB: LBH) to demonstrate CRYAB and VIM1 are not simply cross-reactive antigens to their LBH antibody and all IP was replicated for at least 3 times. (Please see revised ‘Result’ and ‘Figure 6B’)

      3) The limitation of this study and future work should be discussed.

      Answer: As the reviewer pointed out, we have added the limitation of this study and future direction in the discussion section (Please see revised ‘Discussion’).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors report an fMRI investigation of the neural mechanisms by which selective attention allows capacity-limited perceptual systems to preferentially represent task-relevant visual stimuli. Specifically, they examine competitive interactions between two simultaneously-presented items from different categories, to reveal how task-directed attention to one of them modulates the activity of brain regions that respond to both. The specific hypothesis is that attention will bias responses to be more like those elicited by the relevant object presented on its own, and further that this modulation will be stronger for more dissimilar stimulus pairs. This pattern was confirmed in univariate analyses that measured the mass response of a priori regions of interest, as well as multivariate analyses that considered the patterns of evoked activity within the same regions. The authors follow these neuroimaging results with a simulation study that favours a "tuning" mechanism of attention (enhanced responses to highly effective stimuli, and suppression for ineffective stimuli) to explain this pattern.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript clearly articulates a core issue in the cognitive neuroscience of attention, namely the need to understand how limited perceptual systems cope with complex environments in the service of the observer's goals. The use of a priori regions of interest, and the inclusion of both univariate and multivariate analyses as well as a simple model, are further strengths. The authors carefully derive clear indices of attentional effects (for both univariate and multivariate analyses) which makes explication of their findings easy to follow.

      Weaknesses:

      There are some relatively minor weaknesses in presentation, where the motivation behind some of the procedural decisions could be clearer. There are some apparently paradoxical findings reported -- namely, cases in which the univariate response to pairs of stimuli is greater than to the preferred stimulus alone -- that are not addressed. It is possible that some of the main findings may be attributable to range effects: notwithstanding the paradox just noted, it seems that a floor effect should minimise the range of possible attentional modulation of the responses to two highly similar stimuli. One possible limitation of the modelled results is that they do not reveal any attentional modulation at all under the assumptions of the gain model, for any pair of conditions, implying that as implemented the model may not be correctly capturing the assumptions of that hypothesis.

      We thank the reviewer for the constructive comments. In response, in the current version of the manuscript we have improved the presentation. We further discuss how the response in paired conditions is in some cases higher than the response to the preferred stimulus in this letter. For this, we provide a vector illustration, and a supplementary figure of the sum of weights to show that the weights of isolated-stimulus responses for each category pair are not bound to the similarity of the two isolated responses.

      Regarding the simulation results, we have clarified that the univariate effect of attention is not the attentional modulation itself, but the change in the amount of attentional modulation in the two paired conditions. We provide an explanation for this in this letter below, and have changed the term “attentional modulation” to “univariate shift” in the manuscript to avoid the confusion.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In an fMRI study requiring participants to attend to one or another object category, either when the object was presented in isolation or with another object superimposed, the authors compared measured univariate and multivariate activation from object-selective and early visual cortex to predictions derived from response gain and tuning sharpening models. They observed a consistent result across higher-level visual cortex that more-divergent responses to isolated stimuli from category pairs predicted a greater modulation by attention when attending to a single stimulus from the category pair presented simultaneously, and argue via simulations that this must be explained by tuning sharpening for object categories.

      Strengths:

      - Interesting experiment design & approach - testing how category similarity impacts neural modulations induced by attention is an important question, and the experimental approach is principled and clever.

      - Examination of both univariate and multivariate signals is an important analysis strategy.

      - The acquired dataset will be useful for future modeling studies.

      Weaknesses:

      - The experimental design does not allow for a neutral 'baseline' estimate of neural responses to stimulus categories absent attention (e.g., attend fixation), nor of the combination of the stimulus categories. This seems critical for interpreting results (e.g., how should readers understand univariate results like that plotted in Fig. 4C-D, where the univariate response is greater for 2 stimuli than one, but the analyses are based on a shift between each extreme activation level?).

      We are happy to clarify our research rationale. We aimed to compare responses in paired conditions when the stimuli were kept constant while varying the attentional target. After we showed that the change in the attentional target resulted in a response change , we compared the amount of this response change to different stimulus category pairs to investigate the effect of representation similarity between the target and the distractor on the response modulation caused by attentional shift. While an estimate of the neural responses in the absence of attention might be useful for other modeling studies, it would not provide us with more information than the current data to answer the question of this study.

      Regarding the univariate results in Fig. 4C-D (and other equivalent ROI results in the revised version) and our analyses, we did not impose any limit on the estimated weights of the two isolated responses in the paired response and thus the sum of the two weights could be any number. We however see that the naming of “weighted average”, which implies a sum of weights being capped at one, has been misleading . We have now changed the name of this model to “linear combination” to avoid confusion

      Previous studies (Reddy et al., 2009, Doostani et al., 2023) using a similar approach have shown a related results pattern: the response to multiple stimuli is higher than the average, but lower than the sum of the isolated responses, which is exactly what our results suggest. We have added discussion on this topic in the Results section in lines 409-413 for clarification:

      “Note that the response in paired conditions can be higher or lower than the response to the isolated more preferred stimulus (condition Mat), depending on the voxel response to the two presented stimuli, as previously reported (Doostani et al. 2023). This is consistent with previous studies reporting the response to multiple stimuli to be higher than the average, but lower than the sum of the response to isolated stimuli (Reddy et al. 2009).”

      We are not sure what the reviewer means by “each extreme activation level”. Our analyses are based on all four conditions. The two isolated conditions are used to calculate the distance measures and the two paired conditions are used for calculating the shift index. Please note that either the isolated or the paired conditions could show the highest response and we seeboth cases in our data. For example, as shown in Figure 4A in EBA, the isolated Body condition and the paired BodyatCar condition show the highest activation levels for the Body-Car pair, whereas in Figure 4C, the two paired conditions (BodyatCat and BodyCatat) elicit the highest response.

      - Related, simulations assume there exists some non-attended baseline state of each individual object representation, yet this isn't measured, and the way it's inferred to drive the simulations isn't clearly described.

      We agree that the simulations assume a non-attended baseline state, and that we did not measure that state empirically. We needed this non-attended response in the simulations to test which attention mechanism led to the observed results. Thus, we generated the non-attended response using the data reported in previous neural studies of object recognition and attention in the visual cortex (Ni et al., 2012, Bao and Tsao, 2018). Note that the simulations are checking for the profile of the modulations based on category distance. Thus, they do not need to exactly match the real isolated responses in order to show the effect of gain and tuning shift on the results. We include the clarification and the range of neural responses and attention parameters used in the simulations in the revised manuscript in lines 327-333:

      “To examine which attentional mechanism leads to the effects observed in the empirical data, we generated the neural response to unattended object stimuli as a baseline response in the absence of attention, using the data reported by neural studies of object recognition in the visual cortex (Ni et al., 2012, Bao and Tsao, 2018). Then, using an attention parameter for each neuron and different attentional mechanisms, we simulated the response of each neuron to the different task conditions in our experiment. Finally, we assessed the population response by averaging neural responses.”

      - Some of the simulation results seem to be algebraic (univariate; Fig. 7; multivariate, gain model; Fig. 8)

      This is correct. We have used algebraic equations for the effect of attention on neural responses in the simulations. In fact, thinking about the two models of gain and tuning shift leads to the algebraic equations, which in turn logically leads to the observed results, if no noise is added to the data. The simulations are helpful for visualizing these logical conclusions. Also, after assigning different noise levels to each condition for each neuron, the results are not algebraic anymore which is shown in updated Figure 7 and Figure 8.

      - Cross-validation does not seem to be employed - strong/weak categories seem to be assigned based on the same data used for computing DVs of interest - to minimize the potential for circularity in analyses, it would be better to define preferred categories using separate data from that used to quantify - perhaps using a cross-validation scheme? This appears to be implemented in Reddy et al. (2009), a paper implementing a similar multivariate method and cited by the authors (their ref 6).

      Thank you for pointing out the missing details about how we used cross-validation. In the univariate analysis, we did use cross validation, defining preferred categories and calculating category distance on one half of the data and calculating the univariate shift on the other half of the data. Similarly, we employed cross-validation for the multivariate analysis by using one half of the data to calculate the multivariate distance between category pairs, and the other half of the data to calculate the weight shift for each category pair. We have now added this methodological information in the revised manuscript.

      - Multivariate distance metric - why is correlation/cosine similarity used instead of something like Euclidean or Mahalanobis distance? Correlation/cosine similarity is scale-invariant, so changes in the magnitude of the vector would not change distance, despite this likely being an important data attribute to consider.

      Since we are considering response patterns as vectors in each ROI, there is no major difference between the two measures for similarity. Using euclidean distance as a measure of distance (i.e. inverse of similarity) we observed the same relationship between weight shift and category euclidean distance. There was a positive correlation between weight shift and the euclidean category distance in all ROIs ( ps < 0.01, ts > 2.9) except for V1 (p = 0.5, t = 0.66). We include this information in the revised manuscript in the Results section lines 513-515:

      “We also calculated category distance based on the euclidean distance between response patterns of category pairs and observed a similarly positive correlation between the weight shift and the euclidean category distance in all ROIs (ps < 0.01, ts >2.9) except V1 ( p = 0.5, t = 0.66).”

      - Details about simulations implemented (and their algebraic results in some cases) make it challenging to interpret or understand these results. E.g., the noise properties of the simulated data aren't disclosed, nor are precise (or approximate) values used for simulating attentional modulations.

      We clarify that the average response to each category was based on previous neurophysiology studies (Ni et al., 2012, Bao and Tsao, 2018). The attentional parameter was also chosen based on previous neurophysiology (Ni et al., 2012) and human fMRI (Doostani et al., 2023) studies of visual attention by randomly assigning a value in the range from 1 to 10. We have included the details in the Methods section in lines 357-366:

      “We simulated the action of the response gain model and the tuning sharpening model using numerical simulations. We composed a neural population of 4⨯105 neurons in equal proportions body-, car-, cat- or house-selective. Each neuron also responded to object categories other than its preferred category, but to a lesser degree and with variation. We chose neural responses to each stimulus from a normal distribution with the mean of 30 spikes/s and standard deviation of 10 and each neuron was randomly assigned an attention factor in the range between 1 and 10 using a uniform distribution. These values are comparable with the values reported in neural studies of attention and object recognition in the ventral visual cortex (Ni et al. 2012, Bao and Tsao 2018). We also added poisson noise to the response of each neuron (Britten et al. 1993), assigned randomly for each condition of each neuron.”

      - Eye movements do not seem to be controlled nor measured. Could it be possible that some stimulus pairs result in more discriminable patterns of eye movements? Could this be ruled out by some aspect of the results?

      Subjects were instructed to direct their gaze towards the fixation point. Given the variation in the pose and orientation of the stimuli, it is unlikely that eye movements would help with the task. Eye movements have been controlled in previous experiments with individual stimulus presentation (Xu and Vaziri-Pashkam, 2019) and across attentional tasks in which colored dots were superimposed on the stimuli (Vaziri-Pashkam and Xu, 2017) and no significant difference for eye movement across categories or conditions was observed. As such, we do not think that eye movements would play a role in the results we are observing here.

      - A central, and untested/verified, assumption is that the multivariate activation pattern associated with 2 overlapping stimuli (with one attended) can be modeled as a weighted combination of the activation pattern associated with the individual stimuli. There are hints in the univariate data (e.g., Fig. 4C; 4D) that this might not be justified, which somewhat calls into question the interpretability of the multivariate results.

      If the reviewer is referring to the higher response in the paired compared to the isolated conditions, as explained above, we have not forced any limit on the sum of the estimated weights to equal 1 or 2. Therefore, our model is an estimation of a linear combination of the two multivariate patterns in the isolated conditions. In fact, Leila Reddy et al. (reference 6) reported that while the combination is closer to a weighted average than to a weighted sum, the sum of the weights are on average larger than 1. In Figure 4C and 4D the responses in the paired conditions are higher than either of the isolated-condition responses. This suggests that the weights for the linear combination of isolated responses in the multivariate analysis should add up to larger than one. This is what we find in our results. We have added a supplementary figure to Figure 6, depicting the sum of weights for different category pairs in all ROIs. The figure illustrates that in each ROI, the sum of weights are greater than 1 for some category pairs. It is however noteworthy that we normalized the weights in each condition by the sum of weights to calculate the weight shift in our analysis. The amount of the weight shift was therefore not affected by the absolute value of the weights.

      - Throughout the manuscript, the authors consistently refer to "tuning sharpening", an idea that's almost always used to reference changes in the width of tuning curves for specific feature dimensions (e.g., motion direction; hue; orientation; spatial position). Here, the authors are assaying tuning to the category (across exemplars of the category). The link between these concepts could be strengthened to improve the clarity of the manuscript.

      The reviewer brings up an excellent point. Whereas tuning curves have been extensively used for feature dimensions such as stimulus orientation or motion direction, here, we used the term to describe the variation in a neuron’s response to different object stimuli.

      With a finite set of object categories, as is the case in the current study, the neural response in object space is discrete, rather than a continuous curve illustrated for features such as stimulus orientation. However, since more preferred and less preferred features (objects in this case) can still be defined, we illustrated the neural response using a hypothetical curve in object space in Figure 3 to show how it relates with other stimulus features. Therefore, here, tuning sharpening refers to the fact that the response to the more preferred object categories has been enhanced while the response to the less preferred stimulus categories is suppressed.

      We clarify this point in the revised manuscript in the Discussion section lines 649-659:

      “While tuning curves are commonly used for feature dimensions such as stimulus orientation or motion direction, here, we used the term to describe the variation in a neuron’s response to different object stimuli. With a finite set of object categories, as is the case in the current study, the neural response in object space is discrete, rather than a continuous curve illustrated for features such as stimulus orientation. The neuron might have tuning for a particular feature such as curvature or spikiness (Bao et al., 2020) that is present to different degrees in our object stimuli in a continuous way, but we are not measuring this directly. Nevertheless, since more preferred and less preferred features (objects in this case) can still be defined, we illustrate the neural response using a hypothetical curve in object space. As such, here, tuning sharpening refers to the fact that the response to the more preferred object categories has been enhanced while the response to the less preferred stimulus categories is suppressed.”

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      a. The authors should address the apparent paradox noted above (and report whether it is seen in other regions of interest as well). On what model would the response to any pair of stimuli exceed that of the response to the preferred stimulus alone? This implies some kind of Gestalt interaction whereby the combined pair generates a percept that is even more effective for the voxels in question than the "most preferred" one?

      The response to a pair of stimuli can exceed the response to each of the stimuli presented in isolation if the voxel is responsive to both stimuli and as long as the voxel has not reached its saturation level. This phenomenon has been reported in many previous studies (Zoccolan et al., 2005, Reddy et al., 2009, Ni et al., 2012, Doostani et al., 2023) and can be modeled using a linear combination model which does not limit the weights of the isolated responses to equal 1 (Doostani et al., 2023). Note that the “most preferred” stimulus does not necessarily saturate the voxel response, thus the response to two stimuli could be more effective based on voxel responsiveness to the second stimulus.

      As for the current study, the labels “more preferred” and “less preferred” are only relatively defined (as explained in the Methods section), meaning that the more preferred stimulus is not necessarily the most preferred stimulus for the voxels. Furthermore, the presented stimuli are semi-transparent and presented with low-contrast, which moves the responses further away from the saturation level. Based on reported evidence for multiple-stimulus responses, responses to single stimuli are in many cases sublinearly added to yield the multiple-stimulus response (Zoccolan et al., 2005, Reddy et al., 2009, Doostani et al., 2023). This means that the multiple-stimulus response is lower than the sum of the isolated responses and not lower than each of the isolated responses. Therefore, it is not paradoxical to observe higher responses in paired conditions compared to the isolated conditions. We observe similar results in other ROIs, which we provide as supplementary figures to Figure 4 in the revised manuscript.

      We address this observation and similar reports in previous studies in the Results section of the revised manuscript in lines 409-413:

      “Note that the response in paired conditions can be higher or lower than the response to the isolated more preferred stimulus (condition Mat), depending on the voxel preference for the two presented stimuli, as previously reported (Doostani et al., 2023). This is consistent with previous studies reporting the response to multiple stimuli to be higher than the average, but lower than the sum of the response to isolated stimuli (Reddy et al., 2009).”

      b. Paradox aside, I wondered to what extent the results are in part explained by range limits. Take two categories that evoke a highly similar response (either mean over a full ROI, or in the multivariate sense). That imposes a range limit such that attentional modulation, if it works the way we think it does, could only move responses within that narrow range. In contrast, the starting point for two highly dissimilar categories leaves room in principle for more modulation.

      We do not believe that the results can be explained by range limits because responses in paired conditions are not limited by the isolated responses, as can be observed in Figure 4. However, to rule out the possibility of the similarity between responses in isolated conditions affecting the range within which responses in paired conditions can change, we turned to the multivariate analysis. We used the weight shift measure as the change in the weight of each stimulus with the change in the attentional target. In this method, no matter how close the two isolated vectors are, the response to the pair could still have a whole range of different weights of the isolated responses. We have plotted an example illustration of two-dimensional vectors for better clarification. Here, the vectors Vxat and Vyat denote the responses to the isolated x and y stimuli, respectively, and the vector Pxaty denotes the response to the paired condition in which stimulus x is attended. The weights a1 and a2 are illustrated in the figure, which are equal to regression coefficients if we solve the equation Pxaty \= [a1 a2] [x y]’. While the weight values depend on the amplitude of and the angle between the three vectors, they are not limited by a lower angle between Vxat and Vyat.

      We have updated Figure 2 in the manuscript to avoid the confusion. We have also added a figure including the sum of weights for different category pairs in different regions, showing that the sum of weights are not dependent on the similarity between the two stimuli. The conclusions based on the weight shift are therefore not confounded by the similarity between the two stimuli.

      c. Finally, related to the previous point, while including V1 is a good control, I wonder if it is getting a "fair" test here, because the range of responses to the four categories in this region, in terms of (dis)similarity, seems compressed relative to the other categories.

      We believe that V1 is getting a fair test because the single-subject range of category distance in V1 is similar to LO, as can be observed Author response image 1_:_

      Author response image 1.

      Range of category distance in each ROI averaged across participants

      The reason that V1 is showing a more compressed distance range on the average plot is that the category distance in V1 is not consistent among participants. Although the average plots are shown in Figure 5 and Figure 6, we tested statistical significance in each ROI based on single-subject correlation coefficients.

      Please also note that a more compressed range of dissimilarity does not necessarily lead to a less strong effect of category distance on the effect of attention. For instance, while LO shows a more compressed dissimilarity range for the presented categories compared to the other object selective regions, it shows the highest correlation between weight shift and category distance. Furthermore, as illustrated in Figure 5, no significant correlation is observed between univariate shift and category distance in V1, even though the range of the univariate distance in V1 is similar to LO and pFs, where we observed a significant correlation between category distance and univariate shift.

      d. In general, the manuscript does a very good job explaining the methods of the study in a way that would allow replication. In some places, the authors could be clearer about the reasoning behind those methodological choices. For example: - How was the sample size determined?

      Estimating conservatively based on the smallest amount of attentional modulation we observed in a previous study (Doostani et al., 2023), we chose a medium effect size (0.3). For a power of 0.8, the minimum number of participants should be 16. We have added the explanation to the Methods section in lines 78-81:

      “We estimated the number of participants conservatively based on the smallest amount of attentional modulation observed in our previous study (Doostani et al., 2023). For a medium effect size of 0.3 and a power of 0.8, we needed a minimum number of 16 participants.”

      - Why did the authors choose those four categories? What was the evidence that would suggest these would span the range of similarities needed here?

      We chose these four categories based on a previous behavioral study reporting the average reaction time of participants when detecting a target from one category among distractors from another category (Xu and Vaziri-Pashkam, 2019). Ideally the experiment should include as many object categories as possible. However, since we were limited by the duration of the experiment, the number of conditions had to be controlled, leading to a maximum of 4 object categories. We chose two animate and two inanimate object categories to include categories that are more similar and more different based on previous behavioral results (Xu and Vaziri-Pashkam, 2019). We included body and house categories because they are both among the categories to which highly responsive regions exist in the cortex. We chose the two remaining categories based on their similarity to body and house stimuli. In this way, for each category there was another category that elicited similar cortical responses, and two categories that elicited different responses. While we acknowledge that the chosen categories do not fully span the range of similarities, they provide an observable variety of similarities in different ROIs which we find acceptable for the purposes of our study.

      We include this information in the Methods section of the revised manuscript in lines 89-94:

      “We included body and house categories because there are regions in the brain that are highly responsive and unresponsive to each of these categories, which provided us with a range of responsiveness in the visual cortex. We chose the two remaining categories based on previous behavioral results to include categories that provided us with a range of similarities (Xu and Vaziri-Pashkam, 2019). Thus, for each category there was a range of responsiveness in the brain and a range of similarity with the other categories.”

      - Why did the authors present the stimuli at the same location? This procedure has been adopted in previous studies, but of course, it does also move the stimulus situation away from the real-world examples of cluttered scenes that motivate the Introduction.

      We presented the stimuli at the same location because we aimed to study the mechanism of object-based attention and this experimental design helped us isolate it from spatial attention. We do not think that our design moves the stimulus situation away from real-world examples in such a way that our results are not generalizable. We include real-world instances, as well as a discussion on this point, in the Discussion section of the revised manuscript, in lines 611-620:

      “Although examples of superimposed cluttered stimuli are not very common in everyday life, they still do occur in certain situations, for example reading text on the cellphone screen in the presence of reflection and glare on the screen or looking at the street through a patterned window. Such instances recruit object-based attention which was the aim of this study, whereas in more common cases in which attended and unattended objects occupy different locations in space, both space-based and object-based attention may work together to resolve the competition between different stimuli. Here we chose to move away from usual everyday scenarios to study the effect of object-based attention in isolation. Future studies can reveal the effect of target-distractor similarity, i.e. proximity in space, on space-based attention and how the effects caused by object-based and space-based attention interact.”

      - While I'm not concerned about this (all relevant comparisons were within-participants) was there an initial attempt to compare data quality from the two different scanners?

      We compared the SNR values of the two groups of participants and observed no significant difference between these values (ps > 0.34, ts < 0.97). We have added this information to the Methods section.

      Regarding the observed effect, we performed a t-test between the results of the participants from the two scanners. For the univariate results, the observed correlation between univariate attentional modulation and category distance was not significantly different for participants of the two scanners in any ROIs (ps > 0.07 , ts < 1.9). For the multivariate results, the observed correlation between the weight shift and multivariate category distance was not significantly different in any ROIs (ps > 0.48 , ts < 0.71) except for V1 (p-value = 0.015 , t-value = 2.75).

      We include a sentence about the comparison of the SNR values in the preprocessing section in the revised manuscript.

      e. There are a couple of analysis steps that could be applied to the existing data that might strengthen the findings. For one, the authors have adopted a liberal criterion of p < 0.001 uncorrected to include voxels within each ROI. Why, and to what extent is the general pattern of findings robust over more selective thresholds? Also, there are additional regions that are selective for bodies (fusiform body area) and scenes (occipital place area and retrosplenial cortex). Including these areas might provide more diversity of selectivity patterns (e.g. different responses to non-preferred categories) that would provide further tests of the hypothesis.

      We selected this threshold to allow for selection of a reasonable number of voxels in each hemisphere across all participants. To check whether the effect is robust over more selective thresholds, we exemplarily redefined the left EBA region using p < 0.0001 and p < 0.00001 and observed that the weight shift effect remained equivalent. We have made a note of this analysis in the Results section. As for the additional regions suggested by the reviewer, we chose not to include them because they could not be consistently defined in both hemispheres of all participants. Please note that the current ROIs also show different responses to non-preferred categories (e.g. in LO and pFs). We include this information in the Methods section in lines 206-207:

      “We selected this threshold to allow for selection of a reasonable number of voxels in each hemisphere across all participants.”

      And in the Results section in lines 509-512:

      “We performed the analysis including only voxels that had a significantly positive GLM coefficient across the runs and observed the same results. Moreover, to check whether the effect is robust over more selective thresholds for ROI definition, we redefined the left EBA region with p < 0.0001 and p < 0.00001 criteria. We observed a similar weight shift effect for both criteria.”

      f. One point the authors might address is the potential effect of blocking the paired conditions. If I understood right, the irrelevant item in each paired display was from the same category throughout a block. To what extent might this knowledge shape the way participants attend to the task-relevant item (e.g. by highlighting to them certain spatial frequencies or contours that might be useful in making that particular pairwise distinction)? In other words, are there theoretical reasons to expect different effects if the irrelevant category is not predictable?

      We believe that the participants’ knowledge about the distractor does not significantly affect our results because our results are in agreement with previous behavioral data (Cohen et al., 2014, Xu and Vaziri-Pashkam, 2019), in which the distractor could not be predicted. These reports suggest there is a theoretical reason to expect similar effects if the participants could not predict the distractor. To directly test this, one would need to perform an fMRI experiment using an event-related design, an interesting venue for future research.

      We have made a note of this point in the Discussion section of the revised manuscript in lines 621-626:

      “Please note that we used a blocked design in which the target and distractor categories could be predicted across each block. While it is possible that the current design has led to an enhancement of the observed effect, previous behavioral data (Cohen et al., 2014, Xu and Vaziri-Pashkam, 2019) have reported the same effect in experiments in which the distractor was not predictable. To study the effect of predictability on fMRI responses, however, an event-related design is more appropriate, an interesting venue for future fMRI studies.”

      g. The authors could provide behavioural data as a function of the specific category pairs. There is a clear prediction here about which pairs should be more or less difficult.

      We provide the behavioral data as a supplementary figure to Figure 1 in the revised manuscript. We however do not see differences in behavior for the different category paris. This is so because our fMRI task was designed in a way to make sure the participants could properly attend to the target for all conditions. The task was rather easy across all conditions and due to the ceiling effect, there was no significant difference between behavioral performance for different category pairs. However, the effect of category pair on behavior has been previously tested and reported in a visual search paradigm with the same categories (Xu and Vaziri-Pashkam, 2019), which was in fact the basis for our choice of categories in this study (as explained in response to point “d” above).

      h. Figure 4 shows data for EBA in detail; it would be helpful to have a similar presentation of the data for the other ROIs as well.

      We provide data for all ROIs as figure supplements 1-4 to Figure 4 in the revised manuscript.

      i. For the pFs and LOC ROIs, it would be helpful to have an indication of what proportion of voxels was most/least responsive to each of the four categories. Was this a relatively even balance, or generally favouring one of the categories?

      In LO, the proportion of voxels most responsive to each of the four categories was relatively even for Body (31%) and House (32%) stimuli, which was higher than the proportion of Car- and Cat-preferring voxels (18% and 19%, respectively). In pFs, 40% of the voxels were house-selective, while the proportion was relatively even for voxels most responsive to bodies, cars, and houses with 21%, 17%, and 22% of the voxels, respectively. We include the percentage of voxels most responsive to each of the four categories in each ROI as Appendix 1-table 1.

      j. Were the stimuli in the localisers the same as in the main experiment?

      No, we used different sets of stimuli for the localizers and the main experiment. We have added the information in line 146 of the Methods section.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Why are specific ROIs chosen? Perhaps some discussion motivating these choices, and addressing the possible overlap between these and retinotopic regions (based on other studies, or atlases - Wang et al, 2015) would be useful.

      Considering that we used object categories, we decided to look at general object-selective regions (LO, pFS) as well as regions that are highly selective for specific categories (EBA, PPA). We also looked at the primary visual cortex as a control region. We have added this clarification in the Methods section lines 128-133:

      “Considering that we used object categories, we investigated five different regions of interest (ROIs): the object-selective areas lateral occipital cortex (LO) and posterior fusiform (pFs) as general object-selective regions, the body-selective extrastriate body area (EBA) and the scene-selective parahippocampal place area (PPA) as regions that are highly selective for specific categories, and the primary visual cortex (V1) as a control region. We chose these regions because they could all be consistently defined in both hemispheres of all participants and included a large number of voxels.”

      (2) The authors should consider including data on the relative prevalence of voxels preferring each category for each ROI (and/or the mean activation level across voxels for each category for each ROI). If some ROIs have very few voxels preferring some categories, there's a chance the observed results are a bit noisy when sorting based on those categories (e.g., if a ROI has essentially no response to a given pair of categories, then there's not likely to be much attentional modulation detectable, because the ROI isn't driven by those categories to begin with).

      We thank the reviewer for the insightful comment.

      We include the percentage of voxels most responsive to each of the four categories in each ROI in the Appendix ( Appendix 1-table 1, please see the answer to point “i” of the first reviewer).

      We also provide a table of average activity across voxels for each category in all ROIs as Appendix 1-table 2.

      As shown in the table, voxels show positive activity for all categories in all ROIs except for PPA, where voxels show no response to body and cat stimuli. This might explain why we observed a marginally significant correlation between weight shift and category distance in PPA only. As the reviewer mentions, since this region does not respond to body and cat stimuli, we do not observe a significant change in response due to the shift in attention for some pairs. We include the table in the Appendix and add the explanation to the Results section of the revised manuscript in lines 506-508:

      _“_Less significant results in PPA might arise from the fact that PPA shows no response to body and cat stimuli and little response to car stimuli (Appendix 1-table 2). Therefore, it is not possible to observe the effect of attention for all category pairs.”

      a. Related - would it make sense to screen voxels for inclusion in analysis based on above-basely activation for one or both of the categories? [could, for example, imagine you're accidentally measuring from the motor cortex - you'd be able to perform this analysis, but it would be largely nonsensical because there's no established response to the stimuli in either isolated or combined states].

      We performed all the analyses including only voxels that had a significantly positive GLM coefficient across the runs and the results remained the same. We have added the explanation in the Results section in line 509-510.

      (3) Behavioral performance is compared against chance level, but it doesn't seem that 50% is chance for the detection task. The authors write on page 4 that the 1-back repetition occurred between 2-3 times per block, so it doesn't seem to be the case that each stimulus had a 50% chance of being a repetition of the previous one.

      We apologize for the mistake in our report. We have reported the detection rate for the target-present trials (2-3 per block), not the behavioral performance across all trials. We have modified the sentence in the Results section.

      (4) Authors mention that the stimuli are identical for 2-stimulus trials where each category is attended (for a given pair) - but the cue is different, and the cue appears as a centrally-fixated word for 1 s. Is this incorporated into the GLM? I can't imagine this would have much impact, but the strict statement that the goals of the participant are the only thing differentiating trials with otherwise-identical stimuli isn't quite true.

      The word cue was not incorporated as a separate predictor into the GLM. As the reviewer notes, the signals related to the cue and stimuli are mixed. But given that the cues are brief and in the form of words rather than images, they are unlikely to have an effect on the response in the regions of interest.

      To be more accurate, we have included the clarification in the Methods section in lines 181-182:

      “We did not enter the cue to the GLM as a predictor. The obtained voxel-wise coefficients for each condition are thus related to the cue and the stimuli presented in that condition.”

      And in the Results section in lines 425-428 :

      “It is important to note that since the cue was not separately modeled in the GLM, the signals related to the cue and the stimuli were mixed. However, given that the cues were brief and presented in the form of words, they are unlikely to have an effect on the responses observed in the higher-level ROIs.”

      (5) Eq 5: I expected there to be some comparison of a and b directly as ratios (e.g., a_1 > b_1, as shown in Fig. 2). The equations used here should be walked through more carefully - it's very hard to understand what this analysis is actually accomplishing. I'm not sure I follow the explanation of relative weights given by the authors, nor how that maps onto the delta_W quantity in Equation 5.

      We provide a direct comparison of a and b, as well as a more thorough clarification of the analysis, in the Methods section in lines 274-276:

      “We first projected the paired vector on the plane defined by the isolated vectors (Figure 2A) and then determined the weight of each isolated vector in the projected vector (Figure 2B).”

      And in lines 286-297:

      “A higher a1 compared to a2 indicates that the paired response pattern is more similar to Vxat compared to Vyat, and vice versa. For instance, if we calculate the weights of the Body and Car stimuli in the paired response related to the simultaneous presentation of both stimuli, we can write in the LO region: VBodyatCar \= 0.81 VBody + 0.31 VCar, VBodyCarat \= 0.43 VBody + 0.68 VCar. Note that these weights are averaged across participants. As can be observed, in the presence of both body and car stimuli, the weight of each stimulus is higher when attended compared to the case when it is unattended. In other words, when attention shifts from body to car stimuli, the weight of the isolated body response (VBody) decreases in the paired response. We can therefore observe that the response in the paired condition is more similar to the isolated body response pattern when body stimuli are attended and more similar to the isolated car response pattern when car stimuli are attended.”

      And lines 303-306:

      “As shown here, even when body stimuli are attended, the effect of the unattended car stimuli is still present in the response, shown in the weight of the isolated car response (0.31). However, this weight increases when attention shifts towards car stimuli (0.68 in the attended case).”

      We also provide more detailed clarification for the 𝛥w and the relative weights in lines 309-324:

      “To examine whether this increase in the weight of the attended stimulus was constant or depended on the similarity of the two stimuli in cortical representation, we defined the weight shift as the multivariate effect of attention:

      𝛥w = a1/(a1+a2) – b1/(b1+b2)                                                                                          (5)

      Here, a1, a2, b1,and b2 are the weights of the isolated responses, estimated using Equation 4. We calculate the weight of the isolated x response once when attention is directed towards x (a1), and a second time when attention is directed towards y (b1). In each case, we calculate the relative weight of the isolated x in the paired response by dividing the weight of the isolated x by the sum of weights of x and y (a1+a2 when attention is directed towards x, and b1+b2 when attention is directed towards y). We then define the weight shift, Δw, as the change in the relative weight of the isolated x response in the paired response when attention shifts from x to y. A higher Δw for a category pair indicates that attention is more efficient in removing the effect of the unattended stimulus in the pair. We used relative weights as a normalized measure to compensate for the difference in the sum of weights for different category pairs. Thus, using the normalized measure, we calculated the share of each stimulus in the paired response. For instance, considering the Body-Car pair, the share of the body stimulus in the paired response was equal to 0.72 and 0.38, when body stimuli were attended and unattended, respectively. We then calculated the change in the share of each stimulus caused by the shift in attention using a simple subtraction ( Equation 5: Δw=0.34 for the above example of the Body-Car pair in LO) and used this measure to compare between different pairs.”

      We hope that this clarification makes it easier to understand the multivariate analysis and the weight shift calculation in Equation 5.

      We additionally provide the values of the weights (a1, b1, a2, and b2 ) for each category pair averaged across participants as Appendix 1 -table 4.

      (6) For multivariate analyses (Fig. 6A-E), x axis is normalized (pattern distance based on Pearson correlation), while the delta_W does not seem to be similarly normalized.

      We calculated ΔW by dividing the weights in each condition by the sum of weights in that condition. Thus, we use relative weights which are always in the range of 0 to 1, and ΔW is thus always in the range of -1 to 1. This means that both axes are normalized. Note that even if one axis were not normalized, the relationship between the independent and the dependent variables would remain the same despite the change in the range of the axis.

      (7) Simulating additional scenarios like attention to both categories just increasing the mean response would be helpful - is this how one would capture results like those shown in some panels of Fig. 4?

      We did not have a condition in which participants were asked to attend to both categories. Therefore it was not useful for our simulations to include such a scenario. Please also note that the goal of our simulations is not to capture the exact amount of attentional modulation, but to investigate the effect of target-distractor similarity on the change in attentional modulation (univariate shift and weight shift).

      As for the results in some panels of Figure 4, we have explained the reason underlying higher responses in paired conditions compared to isolated conditions) in response to the “weaknesses” section of the second reviewer. We hope that these points satisfy the reviewer’s concern regarding the results in Figure 4 and our simulations.

      (8) Lines 271-276 - the "latter" and "former" are backwards here I think.

      We believe that the sentence was correct, but confusing.. We have rephrased the sentence to avoid the confusion in lines 371-376 of the revised manuscript:

      “We modeled two neural populations: a general object-selective population in which each voxel shows preference to a particular category and voxels with different preferences are mixed in with each other (similar to LO and pFS), and a category-selective population in which all voxels have a similar preference for a particular category (similar to EBA and PPA).”

      (9) Line 314 - "body-car" pair is mentioned twice in describing the non-significant result in PPA ROI.

      Thank you for catching the typo. We have changed the second Body-Car to Body-Cat.

      (10) Fig. 5 and Fig. 6 - I was expecting to see a plot that demonstrated variability across subjects rather than across category pairs. Would it be possible to show the distribution of each pair's datapoints across subjects, perhaps by coloring all (e.g.) body-car datapoints one color, all body-cat datapoints another, etc? This would also help readers better understand how category preferences (which differ across ROIs) impact the results.

      We demonstrated variability across category pairs rather than subjects because we aimed to investigate how the variation in the similarity between categories (i.e. category distance) affected the univariate and multivariate effects of attention. The variability across subjects is reflected in the error bars in the bar plots of Figure 5 and Figure 6.

      Here we show the distribution of each category pair’s data points across subjects by using a different color for each pair:

      Author response image 2.

      Univariate shift versus category distance including single-subject data points in all ROIs.

      Author response image 3.

      Weight shift versus category distance including single-subject data points in all ROIs.

      As can be observed in the figures, category preference has little impact on the results. Rather, the similarity in the preference (in the univariate case) or the response pattern (in the multivariate case) to the two presented categories is what impacts the amount of the univariate shift and the weight shift, respectively. For instance, in EBA we observe a low amount of attentional shift both for the Body-Cat pair, with two stimuli for which the ROI is highly selective, and the Car-House pair, including stimuli to which the region shows little response. A similar pattern is observed in the object-selective regions LO and pFs which show high responses to all stimulus categories.

      We believe that the figures including the data points related to all subjects are not strongly informative. However, we agree that using different colors for each category pair helps the readers better understand that category preference has little impact on the results in different ROIs. We therefore present the colored version of Figure 5 and Figure 6 in the revised manuscript, with a different color for each category pair.

      (11) Fig. 5 and Fig. 6 use R^2 as a dependent variable across participants to conclude a positive relationship. While the positive relationship is clear in the scatterplots, which depict averages across participants for each category pair, it could still be the case that there are a substantial number of participants with negative (but predictive, thus high positive R^2) slopes. For completeness and transparency, the authors should illustrate the average slope or regression coefficient for each of these analyses.

      We concluded the positive relationship and calculated the significance in Figure 5 and Figure 6 using the correlation r rather than r.^2 This is why the result was not significantly positive in V1. We acknowledge that the use of r-squared in the bar plot leads to confusion. We have therefore changed the bar plots to show the correlation coefficient instead of the r-squared. Furthermore, we have added a table of the correlation coefficient for all participants in all ROIs for the univariate and weight shift analyses supplemental to Figure 5 and Figure 6, respectively.

      (12) No statement about data or analysis code availability is provided

      Thanks for pointing this out. The fMRI data is available on OSF. We have added a statement about it in the Data Availability section of the revised manuscript in line 669.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer#1:

      Comment #1: It is unclear how the fraction of NK cell populations is quantified in the spatial-seq datasets. Figures display spatial data with expression scores, but the method for calculating the score and determining NK cell presence in tumor tissue is ambiguous. Clarification is needed on whether the identification relied solely on visual inspection or if quantitative analyses using other criteria were conducted.

      Thank you for your questions. We removed the background and made the accordingly modifications according to your demand. We used the AddModuleScore function in Seurat to quantify the main immune subpopulations in spatial-seq using the gene sets identified in single-cell-seq. Additionally, the tumor and non-tumor region was identified by immunohistochemistry as well as cell clusters in spatial-seq, it is rough that we can't quantify the NK cell presence in each region precisely. The consolation is that the differences of NK cell presence in tumor and non-tumor region is observable by visual inspection. The methodology has been supplemented in the revised manuscript (line 190-193).

      Comment #2: The authors do not provide a clear definition of "resting" NK cells. It remains unclear whether they refer to a senescent state or a non-matured NK cell population. Furthermore, the criteria used to define resting and activated cells based on the expression of KIR2DL4, GPR183, GRP171, CD69, IFNG, GZMK, TTC38, CD160, and PLEKNF1 in Figure 4 are not well-defined. The expression patterns of these genes in Figure 4D are not distinct, and it is unclear which combination of genes was used to classify the populations. Clarification is needed on whether the presence of GZMK alone defines resting NK cells, or if the presence of any of the described genes (GZMK, TTC38, or CD160) is sufficient. Additionally, the method used for this classification, whether visual or algorithm-based, should be described.

      Thank you for your question. The resting and activated NK cells was defined by the preferential expression of the described resting genes (AZU, BPI, CAMP, CD160,CD2, CDHR1, CEACAM8, DEFA4, ELANE, GFI1, GZMK, KLRC4, MGAM, MS4A3, NME8, PLEKHF1, TEP1, TRBC1, TTC38, ZNF135) and activated NK genes (APOBEC3G, APOL6, CCL4, CCND2, CD69, CDK6, CSF2, DPP4, FASLG, GPR171, GPR18, GRAP2, IFNG, KIR2DL4, KIR2DS4, LTA, LTB, NCR3, OSM, PTGER2, SOCS1, TNFSF14) in CIBERSORT. Actually, these marker genes were not specifically expressed in a single NK cells subset. On the other hand, combined with further flow cytometric analysis verification, the resting NK cell tend to be a decidual-like NK cells and tumor- infiltrated NK cells with higher expression of CD9, CD49a and PD-1.

      Comment #3: Criteria used to define high or low NK cell presence/infiltration in Figure 5 are not described in the main text or figure legend. Since, the claim that the presence of the resting or activated NK cells predicts cancer prognosis is based on this figure, this needs to be clearly described.

      Thank you for your questions. The activated and resting NK cell percentage in TCGA and GSE29623 was determined by CIBERSORT. Additionally, the infiltration of activated and resting NK cell was also determined by the AddModuleScore function using the gene sets of activated and resting NK cell identified in single-cell-seq, the differences of activated and resting NK cell presence in tumor and non-tumor region is also determined by visual inspection. We have amended in the main text and figure legend in the revised manuscript.

      Comment #4: The absence of FMO controls for KIR2DL4 or GZMK and the lack of increase in GZMK expression during co-culture with tumour lines raises concerns since GZMK was used as a defining feature of resting NK cells.

      Thank you for your questions. We did a new batch of flow experiments and FMO controls of all the markers used in the experiments were set up to define the precise positive gate locations.

      Author response image 1.

      The positive gate locations of CD56, GZMK, KIR2DL4, CD9, CD49a, PD-1 defined according to the FMO control.

      Comment #5: All the co-cultures were performed with tumour cell line only and no healthy cells, such as human foreskin fibroblasts, were used as control. In the absence of a non-tumour cell line, it is very difficult to draw any conclusions. Furthermore, to claim that resting or activated NK cells are responsible for tumour migration or proliferation, it is important to at least isolate resting and activated NK cells ex vivo and culture with tumour lines, instead of NK cell lines.

      Thank you for your questions. According to your suggestion, NK cells were co-cultured with human foreskin fibroblasts, the phenotype was identified by Flow cytometry. When co-cultured with HFF in direct contact (CN group), NK cells were also tending towards tissue infiltration state (high expression of CD9). However, the domestication effect is significantly reduced compared to co-culturing with tumor cells. Additionally, unlike supernatant of CNS group (NK and HCT were in contact) from NK and HCT co-culture system could significantly increase the migration of fresh HCT, fresh HCT underwent a limited increase (no statistical significance was found) in migration when cultured in the supernatant from the co-culture system in which NK and HFF were in contact (CNS group), but not when co-cultures were performed in the cell supernatant (SNS group) and fresh medium (MNS group). Finally, we tried to isolate resting and activated NK cells from fresh colon cancer surgical specimen. Unfortunately, the NK cells were too few to perform further functional experiments such as migration and proliferation.

      Author response image 2.

      Phenotype switch of NK cells in different co-cultured system and the corresponding NK cell-mediated effect on cell migration of fresh colon cancer cell (HCT-116). A-B: NK cells underwent phenotype switch (high expression of CD9) when cocultured with HCT and HFF, the phenotype switch was more obvious when co-cultured with HCT. CN: NK cells cocultured with HCT/HFF; SN: NK cells cocultured with supernatant of HCT/HFF; MN: NK cells cocultured in fresh medium. C-E: Transwell assay showed the only tumor co-cultured NK mediated the inductive effect on cell migration of colon cancer cell (HCT-116). CNS: Colon cancer cells were cultured in the supernatant from co-culture system that NK and HCT/HFF were cultured in direct contact; SNS: Colon cancer cells were cultured in the supernatant from co-culture system that NK cocultured with supernatant of HCT/HFF; MNS: Colon cancer cells were cultured in the fresh medium.

      Comment #6: It seems that flow cytometric analyses and GZMK and KIR2DL4 staining were performed without cell permeabilization. Could authors confirm if this is accurate, or if they performed intracellular staining instead?

      Thank you for your questions. For GZMK, which known as the secretory protein, flow cytometric analyses were performed both with (Fig.3) and without cell fixation and permeabilization, no significant differences were found among each group. The difference is that GZMK was nearly all negative without fixation and permeabilization while it is all positive with fixation and permeabilization. Conditions of flow cytometry analyses for GZMK may need further optimization or GZMK may not be a suitable flow cytometric marker for resting NK cells. On the other hand, for membrane protein such as CD56, CD9, CD49a, KIR2DL4, PD-1, staining was performed without cell permeabilization.

      Author response image 3.

      Phenotype switch (CD56+, GZMK+) of NK cells was analyzed by FACS after fixation and permeabilization in different co-cultured groups. CN: NK cells cocultured with colon cancer cells; SN: NK cells cocultured with supernatant of cancer cells; MN: NK cells cocultured in fresh medium.

      Comment #7: The identity of the published datasets used for analysis is not provided, and references are not cited in the results section.

      Thank you for your questions. We are sorry for the neglect of our previous work. We have added the information in the revised manuscript (section of Materials and Methods) (Line 123-128).

      Comment #8: References are difficult to locate, as the main text follows APA style while the reference section is organized numerically with no clear order.

      Thank you for your questions. We have modified the format of the references in the revised manuscript.

      Comment #9: Figure 3 shows volcano plots showing DEG genes between tumor and healthy tissue NK cells are not described clearly, and authors did not discuss the significance of these genes, highlighted in the plot.

      Thank you for your questions. Volcano plots of Figure 3 showed the DEGs between colon cancer with metastasis and without metastasis in TCGA database. We focused on the genes which were enriched in the pathway of “Natural killer cell mediated cytotoxicity” and found nearly all the genes enriched in the pathway were down-regulated in the colon cancer with metastasis. We have modified the description in the result section and added the description of importance of these genes in the discussion section in the revise manuscript (Line 322-326).

      Comment #10: The meaning of "M0" and "M1" in Figures 5A and 5B is unclear and should be defined in the text.

      Thank you for your questions. "M0" and "M1" in Figure 5A and 5B means “colon cancer without metastasis” and “colon cancer with metastasis”, respectively. We have modified in the revise manuscript (Line 350-354).

      Comment #11: Terms such as "dynamic remodelling of NK cells" and "landscape of NK cells" are used without explanation, necessitating clarification of their meaning.

      Thank you for your questions. We have modified in the revise manuscript (Line 331-334).

      Comment #12: In vitro assays are described vaguely, making it difficult for readers to understand. More clarity is needed in describing these assays.

      Thank you for your questions. We have added clarification in the revise manuscript (Line 205-211).

      Reviewer #2:

      Comment #1: This manuscript investigates the role of the abundant NK cells that are observed in colon cancer liver metastasis using sequencing and spatial approaches in an effort to clarify the pro and anti-tumorigenic properties of NK cells. This descriptive study characterises different categories of NK cells in tumor and tumor-adjacent tissues and some correlations. An attempt has been made using pseudotime trajectory analysis but no models around how these NK cells might be regulated are provided.

      Thank you for your questions. The single-cell sequencing data enrolled in this study are CD45 positive immune cells and do not involve tumor cells, cellular communication analysis between NK cells and tumor cells cannot be conducted. The change process of NK can only be predicted through pseudotime trajectory analysis. Our hypothesis is that tumor cells domesticate NK cells into a tumor- infiltrated NK cells through direct contact, and flow cytometry experiments have also confirmed that tumor cells can only have such domestication through direct contact with NK cells (with prominent high expression of CD9). However, the detailed mechanism remained unclear.

      Comment #2: A small number of patients are analyzed in this study. The descriptive gene markers, while interesting, need to be further validated to understand how strong this analysis might be and its potential application.

      Thank you for your questions. The sample size included in this study is indeed a bit small, which is also a limitation of our study. However, this is the only large sample single-cell sequencing dataset could be found that includes primary colon cancer tissues, paired paratumor normal colon tissues, paired liver metastatic cancer tissue, and paired paratumor normal liver tissues. We will expand the sample size to further verify the current conclusion in subsequent experiments. In addition, the marker genes of different NK groups used in this study refer to the CIBERSORT's classification of activated NK cells and resting NK cells, which is a widely recognized indicator. We will verify the expression and clinical application value of the screened genes in tissues in subsequent studies.

      Comment #3: Figure 1C and other figures throughout the paper. It is not clear how marker genes were selected.

      Thank you for your questions. The marker genes displayed in the Figure.3C were the highly variable genes of each cell group as well as the marker genes of each immune cells, such as T cells (CD3D, CD3E), NK cells (NKG7, KLRD1), monocytes (LYZ, S100A8, S100A9), B cells (CD79A), plasma cells (JCHAIN, IGHA1, IGHA2), Neutrophils (CXCL8, FCGR3B).

      Comment #4: Figure 1E. P and T have not been defined. Lines should not connect the datasets as they are independent assessments.

      Thank you for your questions. P and T means paratumor normal tissues and tumor tissues, respectively. Which have been added in the caption of Figure 1E. Additionally, the single cell sequencing samples included in the study were paired, with primary colon cancer tissues, paired normal tissues adjacent to colon cancer, paired liver metastatic cancer tissue, and paired normal liver tissues from 20 colon cancer patients with liver metastasis, paired test analysis was thus performed.

      Comment #5: Figure 2C. It is unclear what ST-P1 means. This is not a particularly informative figure.

      Thank you for your questions. We are sorry that it was our annotation error. Actually, it is the spatial transcriptome of the primary colon cancer tissue and liver metastasis tissue of four patients. We have made the modifications in the revised manuscript.

      Comment #6: Multiple figures - abbreviations are used but not provided in the legend. They occur in the text but are not directly related to the figures where they are used to label axes or groups.

      Thank you for your questions. We have rechecked and made corresponding modifications in the revised manuscript.

      Comment #6: Patients: it is not clear what other drugs patients have been exposed to or basic data (sex, age, underlying conditions etc)

      Thank you for your questions. The baseline data of the patient of SC dataset and ST dataset were showed in the Table.1 and Table.2 followed, respectively. They were not presented before as no patients characteristics related analysis was performed in the current study.

      Author response table 1.

      The baseline data of patient from single cell sequencing database.

      Author response table 2.

      The baseline data of patient from spatial transcriptome database.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      In this manuscript, the authors investigated the dynamics of a neural network model characterized by sparsely connected clusters of neuronal ensembles. They found that such a network could intrinsically generate sequence preplay and place maps, with properties like those observed in the real-world data. Strengths of the study include the computational model and data analysis supporting the hippocampal network mechanisms underlying sequence preplay of future experiences and place maps.

      Previous models of replay or theta sequences focused on circuit plasticity and usually required a pre-existing place map input from the external environment via upstream structures. However, those models failed to explain how networks support rapid sequential coding of novel environments or simply transferred the question to the upstream structure. On the contrary, the current proposed model required minimal spatial inputs and was aimed at elucidating how a preconfigured structure gave rise to preplay, thereby facilitating the sequential encoding of future novel environments.

      In this model, the fundamental units for spatial representation were clusters within the network. Sequential representation was achieved through the balance of cluster isolation and their partial overlap. Isolation resulted in a self-reinforced assembly representation, ensuring stable spatial coding. On the other hand, overlap-induced activation transitions across clusters, enabling sequential coding.

      This study is important when considering that previous models mainly focused on plasticity and experience-related learning, while this model provided us with insights into how network architecture could support rapid sequential coding with large capacity, upon which learning could occur efficiently with modest modification via plasticity.

      I found this research very inspiring and, below, I provide some comments aimed at improving the manuscript. Some of these comments may extend beyond the scope of the current study, but I believe they raise important questions that should be addressed in this line of research.

      (1) The expression 'randomly clustered networks' needs to be explained in more detail given that in its current form risks to indicate that the network might be randomly organized (i.e., not organized). In particular, a clustered network with future functionality based on its current clustering is not random but rather pre-configured into those clusters. What the authors likely meant to say, while using the said expression in the title and text, is that clustering is not induced by an experience in the environment, which will only be later mapped using those clusters. While this organization might indeed appear as randomly clustered when referenced to a future novel experience, it might be non-random when referenced to the prior (unaccounted) activity of the network. Related to this, network organization based on similar yet distinct experiences (e.g., on parallel linear tracks as in Liu, Sibille, Dragoi, Neuron 2021) could explain/configure, in part, the hippocampal CA1 network organization that would appear otherwise 'randomly clustered' when referenced to a future novel experience.

      As suggested by the reviewer, we have revised the text to clarify that the random clustering is random with respect to any future, novel environment (lines 111-114 and 710-712).

      Lines 111-114: “To reconcile these experimental results, we propose a model of intrinsic sequence generation based on randomly clustered recurrent connectivity, wherein place cells are connected within multiple overlapping clusters that are random with respect to any future, novel environment.”

      Lines 710-712: “Our results suggest that the preexisting hippocampal dynamics supporting preplay may reflect general properties arising from randomly clustered connectivity, where the randomness is with respect to any future, novel experience.”

      The cause of clustering could be prior experiences (e.g. Bourjaily and Miller, 2011) or developmental programming (e.g. Perin et al., 2011; Druckmann et al., 2014; Huszar et al., 2022), and we have modified lines 116 and 714-718 to state this.

      Lines 116: Added citation of “Perin et al., 2011”

      Lines 714-718: “Synaptic plasticity in the recurrent connections of CA3 may primarily serve to reinforce and stabilize intrinsic dynamics, which could be established through a combination of developmental programming (Perin et al., 2011; Druckmann et al., 2014; Huszar et al., 2022) and past experiences (Bourjaily and Miller, 2011), rather than creating spatial maps de novo.”

      We thank the reviewer for suggesting that the results of Liu et al., 2021 strengthen the support for our modeling motivations. We agree, and we now cite their finding that the hippocampal representations of novel environments emerged rapidly but were initially generic and showed greater discriminability from other environments with repeated experience in the environment (lines 130-134).

      Lines 130-134: “Further, such preexisting clusters may help explain the correlations that have been found in otherwise seemingly random remapping (Kinsky et al., 2018; Whittington et al., 2020) and support the rapid hippocampal representations of novel environments that are initially generic and become refined with experience (Liu et al., 2021).”

      (2) The authors should elaborate more on how the said 'randomly clustered networks' generate beyond chance-level preplay. Specifically, why was there preplay stronger than the time-bin shuffle? There are at least two potential explanations:

      (1) When the activation of clusters lasts for several decoding time bins, temporal shuffle breaks the continuity of one cluster's activation, thus leading to less sequential decoding results. In that case, the preplay might mainly outperform the shuffle when there are fewer clusters activating in a PBE. For example, activation of two clusters must be sequential (either A to B or B to A), while time bin shuffle could lead to non-sequential activations such as a-b-a-b-a-b where a and b are components of A and B;

      (2) There is a preferred connection between clusters based on the size of overlap across clusters. For example, if pair A-B and B-C have stronger overlap than A-C, then cluster sequences A-B-C and C-B-A are more likely to occur than others (such as A-C-B) across brain states. In that case, authors should present the distribution of overlap across clusters, and whether the sequences during run and sleep match the magnitude of overlap. During run simulation in the model, as clusters randomly receive a weak location cue bias, the activation sequence might not exactly match the overlap of clusters due to the external drive. In that case, the strength of location cue bias (4% in the current setup) could change the balance between the internal drive and external drive of the representation. How does that parameter influence the preplay incidence or quality?

      Explanation 1 is correct: Our cluster-activation analyses (Figure 5) showed that the parameter values that generate preplay correspond to the parameter regions that support sustained cluster activity over multiple decoding time bins, which led us to the conclusion of the reviewer’s first proposed explanation.

      We have now added additional analyses supporting the conclusion that cluster-wise activity is the main driver of preplay rather than individual cell-identity (Figures 6 and 7). In Figure 6 we show that cluster-identity alone is sufficient to produce significant preplay by performing decoding after shuffling cell identity within clusters, and in Figure 7 we show that this result holds true when considering the sequence of spiking activity within population bursts rather than the spatial decoding.

      Lines 495-515: The pattern of preplay significance across the parameter grid in Figure 4f shows that preplay only occurs with modest cluster overlap, and the results of Figure 5 show that this corresponds to the parameter region that supports transient, isolated cluster-activation. This raises the question of whether cluster-identity is sufficient to explain preplay. To test this, we took the sleep simulation population burst events from the fiducial parameter set and performed decoding after shuffling cell identity in three different ways. We found that when the identity of all cells within a network are randomly permuted the resulting median preplay correlation shift is centered about zero (t-test 95% confidence interval, -0.2018 to 0.0012) and preplay is not significant (distribution of p-values is consistent with a uniform distribution over 0 to 1, chi-square goodness-of-fit test p=0.4436, chi-square statistic=2.68; Figure 6a). However, performing decoding after randomly shuffling cell identity between cells that share membership in a cluster does result in statistically significant preplay for all shuffle replicates, although the magnitude of the median correlation shift is reduced for all shuffle replicates (Figure 6b). The shuffle in Figure 6b does not fully preserve cell’s cluster identity because a cell that is in multiple clusters may be shuffled with a cell in either a single cluster or with a cell in multiple clusters that are not identical. Performing decoding after doing within-cluster shuffling of only cells that are in a single cluster results in preplay statistics that are not statistically different from the unshuffled statistics (t-test relative to median shift of un-shuffled decoding, p=0.1724, 95% confidence interval of -0.0028 to 0.0150 relative to the reference value; Figure 6c). Together these results demonstrate that cluster-identity is sufficient to produce preplay.

      Lines 531-551: While cluster-identity is sufficient to produce preplay (Figure 6b), the shuffle of Figure 6c is incomplete in that cells belonging to more than one cluster are not shuffled. Together, these two shuffles leave room for the possibility that individual cell-identity may contribute to the production of preplay. It might be the case that some cells fire earlier than others, both on the track and within events. To test the contribution of individual cells to preplay, we calculated for all cells in all networks of the fiducial parameter point their mean relative spike rank and tested if this is correlated with the location of their mean place field density on the track (Figure 7). We find that there is no relationship between a cell’s mean relative within-event spike rank and its mean place field density on the track (Figure 7a). This is the case when the relative rank is calculated over the entire network (Figure 7, “Within-network”) and when the relative rank is calculated only with respect to cells with the same cluster membership (Figure 7, “Within-cluster”). However, because preplay events can proceed in either track direction, averaging over all events would average out the sequence order of these two opposite directions. We performed the same correlation but after reversing the spike order for events with a negative slope in the decoded trajectory (Figure 7b). To test the significance of this correlation, we performed a bootstrap significance test by comparing the slope of the linear regression to the slope that results when performing the same analysis after shuffling cell identities in the same manner as in Figure 6. We found that the linear regression slope is greater than expected relative to all three shuffling methods for both the within-network mean relative rank correlation (Figure 6c) and the within-cluster mean relative rank correlation (Figure 6d).

      Lines 980-1000:

      “Cell identity shuffled decoding

      We performed Bayesian decoding on the fiducial parameter set after shuffling cell identities in three different manners (Figures 6 and 7). To shuffle cells in a cluster-independent manner (“Across-network shuffle”), we randomly shuffled the identity of cells during the sleep simulations. To shuffle cells within clusters (“Within-cluster shuffle”), we randomly shuffled cell identity only between cells that shared membership in at least one cluster. To shuffle cells within only single clusters (“Within-single-cluster shuffle”), we shuffled cells in the same manner as the within-cluster shuffle but excluded any cells from the shuffle that were in multiple clusters.

      To test for a correlation between spike rank during sleep PBEs and the order of place fields on the track (Figure 7), we calculated for each excitatory cell in each network of the fiducial parameter set its mean relative spike rank and correlated that with the location of its mean place field density on the track (Figure 7a). To account for event directionality, we calculated the mean relative rank after inverting the rank within events that had a negatively sloped decoded trajectory (Figure 7b). We calculated mean relative rank for each cell relative to all cells in the network (“Within-network mean relative rank”) and relative to only cells that shared cluster membership with the cell (“Within-cluster mean relative rank”). We then compared the slope of the linear regression between mean relative rank and place field location against the slope that results when applying the same analysis to each of the three methods of cell identify shuffles for both the within-network regression (Figure 7c) and the within-cluster regression (Figure 7d).”

      We also now show that the sequence of cluster-activation in events with 3 active clusters does not match the sequence of cluster biases on the track above chance levels and that events with fewer active clusters have the largest increase in median weighted decode correlation (Figure 5—figure supplement 1), showing that the reviewer’s second explanation is not the case.

      Lines 466-477: “The results of Figure 5 suggest that cluster-wise activation may be crucial to preplay. One possibility is that the random overlap of clusters in the network spontaneously produces biases in sequences of cluster activation which can be mapped onto any given environment. To test this, we looked at the pattern of cluster activations within events. We found that sequences of three active clusters were not more likely to match the track sequence than chance (Figure 5—figure supplement 1a). This suggests that preplay is not dependent on a particular biased pattern in the sequence of cluster activation. We then we asked if the number of clusters that were active influenced preplay quality. We split the preplay events by the number of clusters that were active during each event and found that the median preplay shift relative to shuffled events with the same number of active clusters decreased with the number of active clusters (Spearman’s rank correlation, p=0.0019, =-0.13; Figure 5—figure supplement 1b).”

      Lines 1025-1044:

      “Active cluster analysis

      To quantify cluster activation (figure 5), we calculated the population rate for each cluster individually as the mean firing rate of all excitatory cells belonging to the cluster smoothed with a Gaussian kernel (15 ms standard deviation). A cluster was defined as ‘active’ if at any point its population rate exceeded twice that of any other cluster during a PBE. The active clusters’ duration of activation was defined as the duration for which it was the most active cluster.

      To test whether the sequence of activation in events with three active clusters matched the sequence of place fields on the track, we performed a bootstrap significance test (Figure 5—figure supplement 1). For all events from the fiducial parameter set that had three active clusters, we calculated the fraction in which the sequence of the active clusters matched the sequence of the clusters’ left vs right bias on the track in either direction. We then compared this fraction to the distribution expected from randomly sampling sequences of three clusters without replacement.

      To determine if there was a relationship between the number of active clusters within an event and it’s preplay quality we performed a Spearman’s rank correlation between the number of active clusters and the normalized absolute weighted correlation across all events at the fiducial parameter set. The absolute weighted correlations were z-scored based on the absolute weighted correlations of the time-bin shuffled events that had the same number of active clusters.”

      We also now add control simulations showing that without the cluster-dependent bias the population burst events no longer significantly decode as preplay (Figure 4—figure supplement 4e).

      (3) The manuscript is focused on presenting that a randomly clustered network can generate preplay and place maps with properties similar to experimental observations. An equally interesting question is how preplay supports spatial coding. If preplay is an intrinsic dynamic feature of this network, then it would be good to study whether this network outperforms other networks (randomly connected or ring lattice) in terms of spatial coding (encoding speed, encoding capacity, tuning stability, tuning quality, etc.)

      We agree that this is an interesting future direction, but we see it as outside the scope of the current work. There are two interesting avenues of future work: 1) Our current model does not include any plasticity mechanisms, but a future model could study the effects of synaptic plasticity during preplay on long-term network dynamics, and 2) Our current model does not include alternative approaches to constructing the recurrent network, but future studies could systematically compare the spatial coding properties of alternative types of recurrent networks.

      (4) The manuscript mentions the small-world connectivity several times, but the concept still appears too abstract and how the small-world index (SWI) contributes to place fields or preplay is not sufficiently discussed.

      For a more general audience in the field of neuroscience, it would be helpful to include example graphs with high and low SWI. For example, you can show a ring lattice graph and indicate that there are long paths between points at opposite sides of the ring; show randomly connected graphs indicating there are no local clustered structures, and show clustered graphs with several hubs establishing long-range connections to reduce pair-wise distance.

      How this SWI contributes to preplay is also not clear. Figure 6 showed preplay is correlated with SWI, but maybe the correlation is caused by both of them being correlated with cluster participation. The balance between cluster overlap and cluster isolation is well discussed. In the Discussion, the authors mention "...Such a balance in cluster overlap produces networks with small-world characteristics (Watts and Strogatz, 1998) as quantified by a small-world index..." (Lines 560-561). I believe the statement is not entirely appropriate, a network similar to ring lattice can still have the balance of cluster isolation and cluster overlap, while it will have small SWI due to a long path across some node pairs. Both cluster structure and long-range connection could contribute to SWI. The authors only discuss the necessity of cluster structure, but why is the long-range connection important should also be discussed. I guess long-range connection could make the network more flexible (clusters are closer to each other) and thus increase the potential repertoire.

      We agree that the manuscript would benefit from a more concrete explanation of the small-world index. We have added a figure illustrating different types of networks and their corresponding SWI (Figure 1—figure supplement 1) and a corresponding description in the main text (lines 228-234).

      Lines 228-234: “A ring lattice network (Figure 1—figure supplement 1a) exhibits high clustering but long path lengths between nodes on opposite sides of the ring. In contrast, a randomly connected network (Figure 1—figure supplement 1c) has short path lengths but lacks local clustered structure. A network with small world structure, such as a Watts-Strogatz network (Watts and Strogatz, 1998) or our randomly clustered model (Figure 1—figure supplement 1b), combines both clustered connectivity and short path lengths. In our clustered networks, for a fixed connection probability the SWI increases with more clusters and lower cluster participation…”

      We note that while our most successful clustered networks are indeed those with small-world characteristics, there are other ways of producing small-world networks which may not show good place fields or preplay. We have modified lines 690-692 to clarify that that statement is specific to our model.

      Lines 690-692: “In our clustered network structure, such a balance in cluster overlap produces networks with small-world characteristics (Watts and Strogatz, 1998) as quantified by a small-world index (SWI, Figure 1g; Neal, 2015; Neal, 2017).”

      (5) What drives PBE during sleep? Seems like the main difference between sleep and run states is the magnitude of excitatory and inhibitory inputs controlled by scaling factors. If there are bursts (PBE) in sleep, do you also observe those during run? Does the network automatically generate PBE in a regime of strong excitation and weak inhibition (neural bifurcation)?

      During sleep simulations, the PBEs are spontaneously generated by the recurrent connections in the network. The constant-rate Poisson inputs drive low-rate stochastic spiking in the recurrent network, which then randomly generates population events when there is sufficient internal activity to transiently drive additional spiking within the network.

      During run simulations, the spatially-tuned inputs drive greater activity in a subset of the cells at a given point on the track, which in turn suppress the other excitatory cells through the feedback inhibition.

      We have added a brief explanation of this in the text in lines 281-284.

      Lines 281-284: “During simulated sleep, sparse, stochastic spiking spontaneously generates sufficient excitement within the recurrent network to produce population burst events resembling preplay (Figure 2d-f)”

      (6) Is the concept of 'cluster' similar to 'assemblies', as in Peyrache et al, 2010; Farooq et al, 2019? Does a classic assembly analysis during run reveal cluster structures?

      Our clusters correspond to functional assemblies in that cells that share a cluster membership have more-similar place fields and are more likely to reactivate together during population burst events. In the figure to the right, we show for an example network at the fiducial parameter set the Pearson correlation between all pairs of place fields split by whether the cells share membership in a cluster (blue) or do not (red).

      Author response image 1.

      We expect an assembly analysis would identify assemblies similarly to the experimental data, but we see this additional analysis as a future direction. We have added a description of this correspondence in the text at lines 134-137.

      Lines 134-137: “Such clustered connectivity likely underlies the functional assemblies that have been observed in hippocampus, wherein groups of recorded cells have correlated activity that can be identified through independent component analysis (Peyrache et al., 2010; Farooq et al., 2019).”

      (7) Can the capacity of the clustered network to express preplay for multiple distinct future experiences be estimated in relation to current network activity, as in Dragoi and Tonegawa, PNAS 2013?

      We agree this is an interesting opportunity to compare the results of our model to what has been previously found experimentally. We report here preliminary results supporting this as an interesting future direction.

      Author response image 2.

      We performed a similar analysis to that reported in Figure 3C of Dragoi and Tonegawa, 2013. We determined the statistical significance of each event individually for each of the two environments by testing whether the decoded event’s absolute weighted correlation exceeded that 99th percentile of the corresponding shuffle events. We then fit a linear regression to the fraction of events that were significant for each of the two tracks and that were significant to either of the two tracks (left panel of above figure). We then estimated the track capacity as the number of tracks at the point where the linear regression reached 100% of the network capacity. We find that applying this analysis to our fiducial parameter set returns an estimate of ~8.6 tracks (Dragoi and Tonegawa, 2013, found ~15 tracks).

      We performed this same analysis for each parameter point in our main parameter grid (right panel of above figure). The parameter region that produces significant preplay (Figure 4f) corresponds to the region that has a track capacity of approximately 8-25 tracks. In the parameter grid region that does not produce preplay, the estimated track capacity approaches the high values that this analysis would produce when applied to events that are significant only at the false-positive rate. This analysis is based on the assumption that each preplay event would significantly correspond to at least one future event. Interesting interpretation issues arise when applying this analysis to parameter regions that do not produce statistically significant preplay, which we leave to future directions to address.

      We note two differences between our analysis here and that in Dragoi and Tonegawa, 2013. First, their track capacity analysis was performed on spike sequences rather than decoded spatial sequences, which is the focus of our manuscript. Second, they recorded rats exploring three novel tracks, while in our manuscript we only simulated two novel tracks, which reduces the accuracy of our linear extrapolation of track capacity.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors show that a spiking network model with clustered neurons produces intrinsic spike sequences when driven with a ramping input, which are recapitulated in the absence of input. This behavior is only seen for some network parameters (neuron cluster participation and number of clusters in the network), which correspond to those that produce a small world network. By changing the strength of ramping input to each network cluster, the network can show different sequences.

      Strengths:

      A strength of the paper is the direct comparison between the properties of the model and neural data.

      Weaknesses:

      My main critiques of the paper relate to the form of the input to the network.

      First, because the input is the same across trials (i.e. all traversals are the same duration/velocity), there is no ability to distinguish a representation of space from a representation of time elapsed since the beginning of the trial. The authors should test what happens e.g. with traversals in which the animal travels at different speeds, and in which the animal's speed is not constant across the entire track, and then confirm that the resulting tuning curves are a better representation of position or duration.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out this important limitation. We see extensive testing of the time vs space coding properties of this network as a future direction, but we have performed simulations that demonstrate the robustness of place field coding to variations in traversal speeds and added the results as a supplemental figure (Figure 3—figure supplement 1).

      Lines 332-336: “To verify that our simulated place cells were more strongly coding for spatial location than for elapsed time, we performed simulations with additional track traversals at different speeds and compared the resulting place fields and time fields in the same cells. We find that there is significantly greater place information than time information (Figure 3—figure supplement 1).

      Lines 835-841: “To compare coding for place vs time, we performed repeated simulations for the same networks at the fiducial parameter point with 1.0x and 2.0x of the original track traversal speed. We then combined all trials for both speed conditions to calculate both place fields and time fields for each cell from the same linear track traversal simulations. The place fields were calculated as described below (average firing rate within each of the fifty 2-cm long spatial bins across the track) and the time fields were similarly calculated but for fifty 40-ms time bins across the initial two seconds of all track traversals.”

      Second, it's unclear how much the results depend on the choice of a one-dimensional environment with ramping input. While this is an elegant idealization that allows the authors to explore the representation and replay properties of their model, it is a strong and highly non-physiological constraint. The authors should verify that their results do not depend on this idealization. Specifically, I would suggest the authors also test the spatial coding properties of their network in 2-dimensional environments, and with different kinds of input that have a range of degrees of spatial tuning and physiological plausibility. A method for systematically producing input with varying degrees of spatial tuning in both 1D and 2D environments has been previously used in (Fang et al 2023, eLife, see Figures 4 and 5), which could be readily adapted for the current study; and behaviorally plausible trajectories in 2D can be produced using the RatInABox package (George et al 2022, bioRxiv), which can also generate e.g. grid cell-like activity that could be used as physiologically plausible input to the network.

      We agree that testing the robustness of our results to variations in feedforward input is important. We have added new simulation results (Figure 4—figure supplement 4) showing that the existence of preplay in our model is robust to variations in the form of input.

      Testing the model in a 2D environment is an interesting future direction, but we see it as outside the scope of the current work. To our knowledge there are no experimental findings of preplay in 2D environments, but this presents an interesting opportunity for future modeling studies.

      Lines 413-420: To test the robustness of our results to variations in input types, we simulated alternative forms of spatially modulated feedforward inputs. We found that with no parameter tuning or further modifications to the network, the model generates robust preplay with variations on the spatial inputs, including inputs of three linearly varying cues (Figure 4—figure supplement 4a) and two stepped cues (Figure 4—figure supplement 4b-c). The network is impaired in its ability to produce preplay with binary step location cues (Figure 4—figure supplement 4d), when there is no cluster bias (Figure 4—figure supplement 4e), and at greater values of cluster participation (Figure 4—figure supplement 4f).

      Finally, I was left wondering how the cells' spatial tuning relates to their cluster membership, and how the capacity of the network (number of different environments/locations that can be represented) relates to the number of clusters. It seems that if clusters of cells tend to code for nearby locations in the environment (as predicted by the results of Figure 5), then the number of encodable locations would be limited (by the number of clusters). Further, there should be a strong tendency for cells in the same cluster to encode overlapping locations in different environments, which is not seen in experimental data.

      Thank you for making this important point and giving us the opportunity to clarify. We do find that subsets of cells with identical cluster membership have correlated place fields, but as we show in Figure 9b (original Figure 7b) the network place map as a whole shows low remapping correlations across environments, which is consistent with experimental data (Hampson et al., 1996; Pavlides, et al., 2019).

      Our model includes a relatively small number of cells and clusters compared to CA3, and with a more realistic number of clusters, the level of correlation across network place maps should reduce even further in our model network. The reason for a low level of correlation in the model is because cluster membership is combinatorial, whereby cells that share membership in one cluster can also belong to separate/distinct other clusters, rendering their activity less correlated than might be anticipated.

      We have added text at lines 627-630 clarifying these points.

      Lines 628-631: “Cells that share membership in a cluster will have some amount of correlation in their remapping due to the cluster-dependent cue bias, which is consistent with experimental results (Hampson et al., 1996; Pavlides et al., 2019), but the combinatorial nature of cluster membership renders the overall place field map correlations low (Figure 9b).”

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This work offers a novel perspective on the question of how hippocampal networks can adaptively generate different spatial maps and replays/preplays of the corresponding place cells, without any such maps pre-existing in the network architecture or its inputs. Unlike previous modeling attempts, the authors do not pre-tune their model neurons to any particular place fields. Instead, they build a random, moderately-clustered network of excitatory (and some inhibitory) cells, similar to CA3 architecture. By simulating spatial exploration through border-cell-like synaptic inputs, the model generates place cells for different "environments" without the need to reconfigure its synaptic connectivity or introduce plasticity. By simulating sleep-like random synaptic inputs, the model generates sequential activations of cells, mimicking preplays. These "preplays" require small-world connectivity, so that weakly connected cell clusters are activated in sequence. Using a set of electrophysiological recordings from CA1, the authors confirm that the modeled place cells and replays share many features with real ones. In summary, the model demonstrates that spontaneous activity within a small-world structured network can generate place cells and replays without the need for pre-configured maps.

      Strengths:

      This work addresses an important question in hippocampal dynamics. Namely, how can hippocampal networks quickly generate new place cells when a novel environment is introduced? And how can these place cells preplay their sequences even before the environment is experienced? Previous models required pre-existing spatial representations to be artificially introduced, limiting their adaptability to new environments. Other models depended on synaptic plasticity rules which made remapping slower than what is seen in recordings. This modeling work proposes that quickly-adaptive intrinsic spiking sequences (preplays) and spatially tuned spiking (place cells) can be generated in a network through randomly clustered recurrent connectivity and border-cell inputs, avoiding the need for pre-set spatial maps or plasticity rules. The proposal that small-world architecture is key for place cells and preplays to adapt to new spatial environments is novel and of potential interest to the computational and experimental community.

      The authors do a good job of thoroughly examining some of the features of their model, with a strong focus on excitatory cell connectivity. Perhaps the most valuable conclusion is that replays require the successive activation of different cell clusters. Small-world architecture is the optimal regime for such a controlled succession of activated clusters.

      The use of pre-existing electrophysiological data adds particular value to the model. The authors convincingly show that the simulated place cells and preplay events share many important features with those recorded in CA1 (though CA3 ones are similar).

      Weaknesses:

      To generate place cell-like activity during a simulated traversal of a linear environment, the authors drive the network with a combination of linearly increasing/decreasing synaptic inputs, mimicking border cell-like inputs. These inputs presumably stem from the entorhinal cortex (though this is not discussed). The authors do not explore how the model would behave when these inputs are replaced by or combined with grid cell inputs which would be more physiologically realistic.

      We chose the linearly varying spatial inputs as the minimal model of providing spatial input to the network so that we could focus on the dynamics of the recurrent connections. We agree our results will be strengthened by testing alternative types of border-like input. We show in Figure 4—figure supplement 4that our preplay results are robust to several variations in the location-cue inputs. However, given that a sub-goal of our model was to show that place fields could arise in locations at which no neurons receive a peak in external input, whereas combining input from multiple grid cells produces peaked place-field like input, adding grid cell input (and the many other types of potential hippocampal input) is beyond the scope of the paper.

      Even though the authors claim that no spatially-tuned information is needed for the model to generate place cells, there is a small location-cue bias added to the cells, depending on the cluster(s) they belong to. Even though this input is relatively weak, it could potentially be driving the sequential activation of clusters and therefore the preplays and place cells. In that case, the claim for non-spatially tuned inputs seems weak. This detail is hidden in the Methods section and not discussed further. How does the model behave without this added bias input?

      We apologize for a lack of clarity if we have caused confusion about the type of inputs and if we implied an absence of spatially-tuned information in the network. In order for place fields to appear the network must receive spatial information, which we model as linearly-varying cues and illustrate in Figure 1b and describe in the caption (original lines 156-157), Results (original lines 189-190 & 497-499), and Methods (original lines 671-683). Such input is not place-field like, as the small bias to any cell linearly decreases from one boundary of the track or the other.

      The cluster-dependent bias, which is also described in the same lines (Figure 1 caption (original lines 156-157), Results (original lines 189-190 & 497-499), and Methods (original lines 671-683)), only affects the strength of the spatial cues that are present during simulated run periods. Crucially, this cluster-dependent bias is absent during sleep simulations when preplay occurs, which is why preplay can equally correlate with place field sequences in any context.

      We have modified the text (lines 207-210, 218, and 824-827) to clarify these points. We have also added results from a control simulation (Figure 4—figure supplement 4e) showing that preplay is not generated in the absence of the cluster-dependent bias.

      Lines 207-210: “This bias causes cells that share cluster memberships to have more similar place fields during the simulated run period, but, crucially, this bias is not present during sleep simulations so that there is no environment-specific information present when the network generates preplay.”

      Lines 218: “Second, to incorporate cluster-dependent correlations in place fields, a small…”

      Lines 824-827: “The addition of this bias produced correlations in cells’ spatial tunings based on cluster membership, but, importantly, this bias was not present during the sleep simulations, and it did not lead to high correlations of place-field maps between environments (Figure 9b).”

      Unlike excitation, inhibition is modeled in a very uniform way (uniform connection probability with all E cells, no I-I connections, no border-cell inputs). This goes against a long literature on the precise coordination of multiple inhibitory subnetworks, with different interneuron subtypes playing different roles (e.g. output-suppressing perisomatic inhibition vs input-gating dendritic inhibition). Even though no model is meant to capture every detail of a real neuronal circuit, expanding on the role of inhibition in this clustered architecture would greatly strengthen this work.

      This is an interesting future direction, but we see it as outside the scope of our current work. While inhibitory microcircuits are certainly important physiologically, we focus here on a minimal model that produces the desired place cell activity and preplay, as measured in excitatory cells. We have added a brief discussion of this to the manuscript.

      Lines 733-739: “Additionally, the in vivo microcircuitry of CA3 is complex and includes aspects such as nonlinear dendritic computations and a variety of inhibitory cell types (Rebola et al., 2017). This microcircuitry is crucial for explaining certain aspects of hippocampal function, such as ripple and gamma oscillogenesis (Ramirez-Villegas et al., 2017), but here we have focused on a minimal model that is sufficient to produce place cell spiking activity that is consistent with experimentally measured place field and preplay statistics.”

      For the modeling insights to be physiologically plausible, it is important to show that CA3 connectivity (which the model mimics) shares the proposed small-world architecture. The authors discuss the existence of this architecture in various brain regions but not in CA3, which is traditionally thought of and modeled as a random or fully connected recurrent excitatory network. A thorough discussion of CA3 connectivity would strengthen this work.

      We agree this is an important point that is missing, and we have modified lines 114-116 to address the clustered connectivity reported in CA3.

      Lines 114-116: “Such clustering is a common motif across the brain, including the CA3 region of the hippocampus (Guzman et al., 2016) as well as cortex (Song et al., 2005), …”

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Based on Figure 3, the place fields are not uniformly distributed in the maze. Meanwhile, based on Figure 1b and Methods, the total input seems to be uniform across the maze. Why does the uniform total external input lead to nonuniform network activities?

      While the total input to the network is constant across the maze, the input to any individual cell can peak only at either end of the track. All excitatory cells receive input from both the left-cue and the right-cue with different input strengths. By chance and due to the cluster-dependent bias some cells will have stronger input from one cue than the other and will therefore be more likely to have a place field toward that side of the track. However, no cell receives a peak of input in the center of the track. We have modified lines 141-143 to clarify this.

      Lines 141-143: “While the total input to the network is constant as a function of position, each cell only receives a peak in its spatially linearly varying feedforward input at one end of the track.”

      (2) I find these sentences confusing: "...we expected that the set of spiking events that significantly decode to linear trajectories in one environment (Figure 4) should decode with a similar fidelity in another environment..." (Lines 513-515) and "As expected... but not with the place fields of trajectories from different environments (Figure 7c)" (Line 517-520). What is the expectation for cross-environment decoding? Should they be similar or different? Also, in Figure 7c, the example is not fully convincing. In the figure caption, it states that decoding is significant in the top row but not in the bottom row, but they look similar across rows.

      Original lines 513-515 refer to the entire set of events, while original lines 517-520 refer to one example event. The sleep events are simulated without any track-specific information present, so the degree to which preplay occurs when decoding based on the place fields of a specific future track should be independent of any particular track when considering the entire set of decoded PBEs, as shown in Figure 9d (original Figure 7). However, because there is strong remapping across tracks (Figure 9b), an individual event that shows a strong decoded trajectory based on the place fields of one track (Figure 9c, top row) should show chance levels of a decoded trajectory when decoded with the place fields of an alternative track (Figure 9c, bottom row).

      We have revised lines 643-650 for clarity, and we have added statistics for the events shown in Figure 9c.

      Lines 644-651: “Since the place field map correlations are high for trajectories on the same track and near zero for trajectories on different tracks, any individual event would be expected to have similar decoded trajectories when decoding based on the place fields from different trajectories in the same environment and dissimilar decoded trajectories when decoding based on place fields from different environments. A given event with a strong decoded trajectory based on the place fields of one environment would then be expected to have a weaker decoded trajectory when decoded with place fields from an alternative environment (Figure 9c).

      Lines 604-608: “(c) An example event with a statistically significant trajectory when decoded with place fields from Env. 1 left (absolute correlation at the 99th percentile of time-bin shuffles) but not when decoded with place fields of the other trajectories (78th, 45th, and 63rd percentiles, for Env. 1 right, Env. 2 left, and Env. 2 right, respectively). shows a significant trajectory when it is decoded with place fields from one environment (top row), but not when it is decoded with place fields from another environment (bottom row). “

      (3) In Methods, the equation at line 610, E in the last term should be E_ext.

      We modeled the feedforward inputs as excitatory connections with the same reversal potential as the recurrent excitatory connections, so  is the proper value.

      (4) Equation line 617 states that conductances follow exponential decay, but the initial conductances of g_I.g_E and g_SRA are not specified.

      We have added a description of the initial values in lines 760-764.

      Lines 760-764: “Initial feed-forward input conductances were set to values approximating their steady-state values by randomly selecting values from a Gaussian with a mean of   and a standard deviation of . Initial values of the recurrent conductances and the SRA conductance were set to zero.”

      (5) In the parameter table below line 647, W_E-E, W_E-I, and W_I-E are not described in the text.

      We have clarified in lines 757-760 that the step increase in conductance corresponds to these parameter values.

      Lines 757-760: “A step increase in conductance occurs at the time of each spike by an amount corresponding to the connection strength for each synapse ( for E-to-E connections, for E-to-I connections, and  for I-to-E connections), or by  for .”

      (6) On line 660, "...Each environment and the sleep session had unique context cue input weights...". Does that mean that within a sleep session, the network received the same context input? How strongly are the sleep dynamics driven by that context input rather than by intrinsic dynamics? Usually, sleep activity is high dimensional, what would happen if the input during sleep is more stochastic?

      Yes, within a sleep session each network receives a single set of context inputs, which are implemented as independent Poisson spike trains (so being independent, in small time-windows the dimensionality is equal to the number of neurons). The effects of any particular set of sleep context cue inputs should be minor, since the standard deviation of the input weights, , is small. Further, because the preplay analysis is performed across many networks at each parameter point, the observation of preplay is independent of any particular realization of either the recurrent network or the sleep context inputs.

      Further exploring the effects of more biophysically realistic neural dynamics during simulated sleep is an interesting future direction.

      (7) One bracket is missing in the denominator in line 831.

      We have fixed this error.

      Line 1005: “)” -> “()”

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      - I would suggest the authors cite Chenkov et al 2017, PLOS Comp Bio, in which "replay" sequences were produced in clustered networks, and discuss how their work differs.

      We have included a contrast of our model to that of Chenkov et al., 2017 in lines 73-78.

      Lines 73-78: “Related to replay models based on place-field distance-dependent connectivity is the broader class of synfire-chain-like models. In these models, neurons (or clusters of neurons) are connected in a 1-dimensional feed-forward manner (Diesmann et al., 1999; Chenkov et al., 2017). The classic idea of a synfire-chain has been extended to included recurrent connections, such as by Chenkov et al., 2017, however such models still rely on an underlying 1-dimensional sequence of activity propagation.”

      - Figure legend 2e says "replay", should be "preplay".

      We have fixed this error.

      Line 255: “(e) Example preplay event…”

      - How much does the context cue affect the result? e.g. Is sleep notably different with different sleep context cues?

      As discussed above in our response to Reviewer 1, the context cue weights have a small standard deviation, , which means that differences in the effects of different realizations of the context inputs are small. Different sets of context cues will cause cells to have slightly higher or lower spiking rates during sleep simulations, but because there is no correlation between the sleep context cue and the place field simulations there should be no effect on preplay quality.

      - Figure 4 should include a control with a single cluster.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion and have added additional control simulations.

      In our model, the recurrent structure of a network with a single cluster is equivalent to a cluster-less random network. Additionally, any network where cluster participation equals the number of clusters is equivalent to a cluster-less random network, since all neurons belong to all clusters and can therefore potentially connect to any other neuron. Such a condition corresponds to a diagonal boundary where the number of clusters equals the cluster participation, which occurs at higher values of cluster participation than we had shown in our primary parameter grid.

      We now include simulation results that extend to this boundary, corresponding to cluster-less networks (Figure 4—figure supplement 4f). Networks at these parameter points do not show preplay. See our earlier response for the new text associated with Figure 4—figure supplement 4.

      - The results of Figure 4 are very noisy. I would recommend increasing the sampling, both in terms of the number of population events in each condition and the number of conditions.

      We have run simulations for longer durations (300 seconds) and with more networks (20) to produce more accurate empirical values for the statistics calculated across the parameter grids in Figures 3 and 4. Our additional simulations (Figure 4—figure supplement 4) provide support that the parameter region of preplay significance is reliable.

      Lines 831-833: “For the parameter grids in Figures 3 and 4 we simulated 20 networks with 300 s long sleep sessions in order to get more precise empirical estimates of the simulation statistics.”

      - It's not entirely clear what's different between the analysis described in lines 334-353, and the preplay analysis in Figure 2. In general, the description of this result was difficult to follow, as it included a lot of text that would be better served in the methods.

      In Figure 2 we first introduce the Bayesian decoding method, but it is not until Figure 4 that the shuffle-based significance testing is first introduced. We have simplified the description of the shuffle comparison in lines 371-375 and now refer the reader to the methods for details.

      Lines 371-375: “We find significant preplay in both our reference experimental data set (Shin et al., 2019; Figure 4a, b; see Figure 4—figure supplement 1 for example events) and our model (Figure 4c, d) when analyzed by the same methods as Farooq et al., 2019, wherein the significance of preplay is determined relative to time-bin shuffled events (see Methods). For each detected event we calculated its absolute weighted correlation. We then generated 100 time-bin shuffles of each event, and for each shuffle recalculated the absolute weighted correlation to generate a null distribution of absolute weighted correlations.”

      - Many of the figures have low text resolution (e.g. Figure 6).

      We have now fixed this.

      - How does the clustered small world network compare to e.g. a small world ring network as used in Watts and Strogatz 1998?

      As described in our above response to Reviewer 1's fourth point, we have added a supplementary figure (Figure 1—figure supplement 1, with corresponding text) comparing our model with the Watts-Strogatz model.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Figure 5 would benefit from a plot of the overlap of activated clusters per event.

      In our cluster activation analysis in Figure 5, we defined a cluster as “active” if at any point in the event its population rate was twice that of any other clusters’. We used this definition—which permits no overlap of activated clusters—rather than a definition based on a z-scoring of the rate, because we determined that preplay required periods of spiking dominated by individual clusters.

      Author response image 3.

      The choice of such a definition is supported by our observation that most spiking activity within an event is dominated by whichever cluster is most active at each point in time. In the left panel of the above figure we show the distribution of the average fraction of spikes within each event that came from the most active cluster at each point in time. The right panel shows the distribution of the average across time within each event of the ratio of the population activity rate of the most active cluster to the second most active cluster. The data for both panels comes from all events at the fiducial parameter set.

      Author response image 4.

      Rather than overlapping at a given moment in time, clusters might have overlap in their probability of being active at some point within an event. We do find that there is a small but significant correlation in cluster co-activation. For each network we calculated the activation correlation across events for each pair of clusters (example network show in the left panel). We compared the distribution of resulting absolute correlations against the values that results after shuffling the correlations between cluster activations (right panel, all correlations for all networks from the fiducial parameter point).

      Figures 4e/f are referred to as 4c/d in the text (pg 14).

      We have fixed this error.

      Lines 400-412: “4c” -> “4e” and “4d” -> “4f”

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The Notch signaling pathway plays an important role in many developmental and disease processes. Although well-studied there remain many puzzling aspects. One is the fact that as well as activating the receptor through trans-activation, the transmembrane ligands can interact with receptors present in the same cell. These cis-interactions are usually inhibitory, but in some cases, as in the assays used here, they may also be activating. With a total of 6 ligands and 4 receptors, there is potentially a wide array of possible outcomes when different combinations are co-expressed in vivo. Here the authors set out to make a systematic analysis of the qualitative and quantitative differences in the signaling output from different receptor-ligand combinations, generating sets of "signaling" (ligand expressing) and "receiving" (receptor +/- ligand expressing cells).

      The readout of pathway activity is transcriptional, relying on the fusion of GAL4 in the intracellular part of the receptor. Positive ligand interactions result in the proteolytic release of Gal4 that turns on the expression of H2B-citrine. As an indicator of ligand and receptor expression levels, they are linked via TA to H2B mCherry and H2B mTurq expression respectively. The authors also manipulate the expression of the glycosyltransferase Lunatic-Fringe (LFng) that modifies the EGF repeats in the extracellular domains impacting their interactions. The testing of multiple ligand-receptor combinations at varying expression levels is a tour de force, with over 50 stable cell lines generated, and yields valuable insights although as a whole, the results are quite complex.

      Strengths:

      Taking a reductionist approach to testing systematically differences in the signaling strength, binding strength, and cis-interactions from the different ligands in the context of the Notch1 and Notch 2 receptors (they justify well the choice of players to test via this approach) produces a baseline understanding of the different properties and leads to some unexpected and interesting findings. Notably:

      -                Jag1 ligand expressing cells failed to activate Notch1 receptor although were capable of activating Notch2. Conversely, Jag2 cells elicited the strongest activation of both receptors. The results with

      Jag1 are surprising also because it exhibits some of the strongest binding to plate-bound ligands. The failure to activate Notch1 has major functional significance and it will be important in the future to understand the mechanistic basis.

      -                Jagged ligands have the strongest cis-inhibitory effects and the receptors differ in their sensitivity to cis-inhibition by Dll ligands. These observations are in keeping with earlier in vivo and cell culture studies. More referencing of those would better place the work in context but it nicely supports and extends previous studies that were conducted in different ways.

      -                Responses to most trans-activating ligands showed a degree of ultrasensitivity but this was not the case for cis-interactions where effects were more linear. This has implications for the way the two mechanisms operate and for how the signaling levels will be impacted by ligand expression levels.

      -                Qualitatively similar results are obtained in a second cell line, suggesting they reflect fundamental properties of the ligands/receptors.

      We appreciate the positive and constructive feedback.

      Weaknesses:

      One weakness is that the methods used to quantify the expression of ligands and receptors rely on the co-translation of tagged nuclear H2B proteins. These may not accurately capture surface levels/correctly modified transmembrane proteins. In general, the multiple conditions tested partly compensate for the concerns - for example, as Jag1 cells do activate Notch2 even if they do not activate Notch1 some Jag1 must be getting to the surface. But even with Notch2, Jag1 activities are on the lower side, making it important to clarify, especially given the different outcomes with the plated ligands. Similarly, is the fact that all ligands "signalled strongest to Notch2" an inherent property or due to differences in surface levels of Notch 2 compared to Notch1? The results would be considerably strengthened by calibration of the ligand/receptor levels (and ideally their sub-cellular localizations). Assessing the membrane protein levels would be relatively straightforward to perform on some of the basic conditions because their ligand constructs contain Flag tags, making it plausible to relate surface protein to H2B, and there are antibodies available for Notch1 and Notch2.

      We agree that mCherry fluorescence does not provide a direct readout of active surface ligand levels. As the reviewer points out, the ability of Jag1 to activate Notch2 demonstrates that expressed Jag1 is competent for signaling. Further, in some cases, Jag1-Notch2 activation can be comparable to Dll1-Notch2 activation (Figure 2A). Following the reviewer’s suggestion, we performed a Western blot for multiple expression levels for each of three surface ligands (Dll1, Dll4, Jag1) (Figure 2—figure supplement 2). This blot revealed a signal for surface expression of Jag1. Interpretation is complicated by the expected dependence of the efficiency of surface protein purification on the number of primary amines in the protein, which varies among these ligands, and qualitatively correlates with the staining intensity. While this makes quantitative interpretation difficult, this result further supports the notion that Jag1 is present on the cell surface. Finally, we note that high signaling activity need not, in general, directly correlate with surface expression levels. In fact, one study showed an example in which increased ligand activity occurred with decreased basal ligand surface levels (Antfolk et al., 2017). While one would ideally like to know all parameters of the system, including surface protein levels, rates of recycling, etc. the perspective taken here is that the net effect of these many post-translational processing steps can be subsumed into the overall relationship between the expression of the protein (which, in our case, is read out by the co-translational reporter) and its activity, which is relevant for the behavior of developmental circuits, among other systems. To address this comment, we now explicitly mention the limitation of mCherry as a proxy for surface protein, and add a reference to previous work highlighting the relationship between surface levels and ligand activity.

      In terms of the dependence of signaling on Notch levels, the metric of signaling activity used here is explicitly normalized by the mTurquoise co-translational reporter of Notch expression to account for differences in receptor expression across receiver clones. We have added a new figure to show the variation in expression (Figure 1—figure supplement 1A) and to demonstrate this normalization (Figure 1—figure supplement 5). Having said that, as the reviewer correctly points out, we cannot directly address the dependence on surface receptor levels with mTurquoise alone. To address this comment, we have added a figure that shows cotranslational and surface receptor expression for a subset of our receiver clones (Figure 1—figure supplement 1B). Although antibody binding strengths may vary, it appears unlikely that higher surface levels could explain most ligands’ preferential activation of Notch2 over Notch1, since Notch2 levels were lower than Notch1 levels in both surface expression and cotranslational expression.

      Cis-activation as a mode of signaling has only emerged from these synthetic cell culture assays raising questions about its physiological relevance. Cis-activation is only seen at the higher ligand (Dll1, Dll4) levels, how physiological are the expression levels of the ligands/receptors in these assays? Is it likely that this would make a major contribution in vivo? Is it possible that the cells convert themselves into "signaling" and "receiving" sub-populations within the culture by post-translational mechanism? Again some analysis of the ligand/receptors in the cultures would be a valuable addition to show whether or not there are major heterogeneities.

      The cis-activation results in this paper are, as the reviewer points out, conducted in synthetic cell culture assays. Cis-activation is observed across a large dynamic range of ligand expression, possibly including non-physiologically high levels. However, our previous work (Nandagopal et al, eLife 2019) showed that cis-activation does not require over-expression, as it occurred in unmodified Caco-2 and NMuMG cells with their endogenous ligand and receptor expression levels. As shown here in Figure 4B, cis-activation for Notch2 increases monotonically and is substantial even at intermediate ligand concentrations. In other cases, cis-activation is maximal at intermediate concentrations. We agree that the in vivo role remains unclear, and is difficult to determine due to the typical close contacts among cells in tissues. Therefore, these assays do not speak to in vivo relevance. Note that we can, however, rule out the possibility of trans signaling between well-mixed cell populations at these densities (Figure 4A).

      It is hard to appreciate how much cell-to-cell variability in the "output" there is. For example, low "outputs" could arise from fewer cells becoming activated or from all cells being activated less. As presented, only the latter is considered. That may be already evident in their data, but not easy for the reader to distinguish from the way they are presented. For example, in many of the graphs, data have been processed through multiple steps of normalization. Some discussion/consideration of this point is needed.

      We agree that in different experiments changes in a mean response can reflect changes in fraction of activated cells, or level of activation or some combination of both. In this work, most assays were conducted by flow cytometry, which provides a full distribution of cellular responses. We provided distributions for some experiments in the supplementary figures (i.e., Figure 4—figure supplement 1, and Figure 5—figure supplement 4). The sheer number of experiments and samples prevents us from displaying all underlying histograms. Therefore, we have provided all flow data sets in an extensive archive that is publicly available on data.caltech.edu (https://doi.org/10.22002/gjjkn-wrj28).

      Impact:

      Overall, cataloging the outcomes from the different ligand-receptor combinations, both in cis and trans, yields a valuable baseline for those investigating their functional roles in different contexts. There is still a long way to go before it will be possible to make a predictive model for outcomes based on expression levels, but this work gives an idea about the landscape and the complexities. This is especially important now that signaling relationships are frequently hypothesized based on single-cell transcriptomic data. The results presented here demonstrate that the relationships are not straightforward when multiple players are involved.

      We appreciate this concise impact summary, and agree with its conclusions.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, the authors extend their previous studies on trans-activation, cis-inhibition (PMID: 25255098), and cis-activation (PMID: 30628888) of the Notch pathway. Here they create a large number of cell lines using CHO-K1 and C2C12 cells expressing either Notch1-Gal4 or Notch2-Gal4 receptors which express a fluorescent protein upon receptor activation (receiver cells). For cis-inhibition and cis-activation assays, these cells were engineered to express one of the four canonical Notch ligands (Dll1, Dll4, Jag1, Jag2) under tetracycline control. Some of the receiver cells were also transfected with a Lunatic fringe (Lfng) plasmid to produce cells with a range of Lfng expression levels. Sender cells expressing all of the canonical ligands were also produced. Cells were mixed in a variety of co-culture assays to highlight trans-activation, cis-activation, and cis-inhibition. All four ligands were able to trans-activate Notch1 and Notch 2, except Jag1 did not transactivate Notch1. Lfng enhanced trans-activation of both Notch receptors by Dll1 and Dll2, and inhibited Notch1 activation by Jag2 and Notch2 activation by both Jag 1 and Jag2. Cis-expression of all four ligands was predominantly inhibitory, but Dll1 and Dll4 showed strong cis-activation of Notch2. Interestingly, cis-ligands preferentially inhibited trans-activation by the same ligand, with varying effects on other trans-ligands.

      Strengths:

      This represents the most comprehensive and rigorous analysis of the effects of canonical ligands on cis- and trans-activation, and cis-inhibition, of Notch1 and Notch2 in the presence or absence of Lfng so far. Studying cis-inhibition and cis-activation is difficult in vivo due to the presence of multiple Notch ligands and receptors (and Fringes) that often occur in single cells. The methods described here are a step towards generating cells expressing more complex arrays of ligands, receptors, and Fringes to better mimic in vivo effects on Notch function.

      In addition, the fact that their transactivation results with most ligands on Notch1 and 2 in the presence or absence of Lfng were largely consistent with previous publications provides confidence that the author's assays are working properly.

      We appreciate the thoughtful comments and feedback.

      Weaknesses:

      It was unusual that the engineered CHO cells expressing Notch1-Gal4 were not activated at all by co-culture with Jag1-expressing CHO cells. Many previous reports have shown that Jag1 can activate Notch1 in co-culture assays, including when Notch1 was expressed in CHO cells. Interestingly, when the authors used Jag1-Fc in a plate coating assay, it did activate Notch1 and could be inhibited by the expression of Lfng.

      In our assays, we do in fact also see some signaling of Jag1 to Notch1, especially when dLfng is coexpressed (Figure 2—figure supplement 4, formerly Figure 2—figure supplement 3). While these levels are lower than those observed for other ligand-receptor combinations, they are significantly elevated compared to baseline. In specific natural contexts, it will be important to determine whether the weak but non-zero Jag1-Notch1 signaling acts negatively to suppress signaling from other ligands, or provides weak but potentially functionally important levels of signaling. Evidence for both modes exists in the literature. To address this, we have expanded the discussion of Jag1-Notch1 signaling and added references to other work on Jag1-Notch1 signaling to the Discussion section.

      The cell surface level of the ligands was determined by flow cytometry of a co-translated fluorescent protein. Some calibration of the actual cell surface levels with the fluorescent protein would strengthen the results.

      This issue was also raised by Reviewers #1 and #3. Please see responses to Reviewer #1, above.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript reports a comprehensive analysis of Notch-Delta/Jagged signaling inclusive of the human Notch1 and Notch2 receptors and DLL1, DLL4, JAG1, and JAG2 ligands. Measurements

      encompassed signaling activity for ligand trans-activation, cis-activation, cis-inhibition, and activity modulation by Lfng. The most striking observations of the study are that JAG1 has no detectable activity as a Notch1 ligand when presented on a cell (though it does have activity when immobilized on a surface), even though it is an effective cis-inhibitor of Notch1 signaling by other ligands, and that DLL1 and DLL4 exhibit cis-activating activity for Notch1 and especially for Notch2. Notwithstanding the artificiality of the system and some of its shortcomings, the results should nevertheless be a valuable resource for the Notch signaling community.

      Strengths:

      (1)  The work is systematic and comprehensive, addressing questions that are of importance to the community of researchers investigating mammalian Notch proteins, their activation by ligands, and the modulation of ligand activity by LFng.

      (2)  A quantitative and thorough analysis of the data is presented.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The manuscript is primarily descriptive and does not delve into the underlying, mechanistic origin or source of the different ligand activities.

      We agree that the goals of this paper were largely to discover the range of signaling modes that occur. A mechanistic analysis would be beyond the scope of this work, but we agree it is an important next step.

      (2) The amount of ligand or receptor expressed is inferred from the flow cytometry signal of a co-translated fluorescent protein-histone fusion, and is not directly measured. The work would be more compelling if the amount of ligand present on the cell surface were directly measured with anti-ligand antibodies, rather than inferred from measurements of the fluorescent protein-histone fusion.

      This issue was also raised by Reviewers #1 and #2. Please see responses to Reviewer #1, above.

      (3) It would be helpful to see plots of the raw activity data before transformation and normalization, because the plots present data after several processing steps, and it is not clear how the processed data relate to the original values determined in each measurement.

      We included examples showing how raw data is processed in Figure 4—figure supplement 1 and Figure 5—figure supplement 4. The sheer number of experiments precludes including similar figures for all data sets. However, all raw and processed data and data analysis code is publicly available at (https://doi.org/10.22002/gjjkn-wrj28).

      (4) The authors use sparse plating of engineered cells with parental (no ligand or receptor-expressing cell to measure cis activation). However, the cells divide within the cultured period of 22-24 h and can potentially trans-activate each other.

      If measured cis-activation signal arises solely from trans-activation, then the measured cis-activation signal per cell should increase with cell density, since trans-activation per cell does depend on cell density (Figure 4A). However, for the strongest cis-activators (Dll1- and Dll4-Notch2), signaling magnitude is similar when these cells are cultured sparsely or at confluence, which would otherwise allow efficient trans signaling (Figure 5A). Thus, for Dll1- and Dll4-Notch2 receivers, total signaling strength per cell depends little or not at all on the opportunity to signal intercellularly. Moreover, cis-activation signal for the Dll1- and Dll4-Notch2 combinations exceeded the maximum trans-signaling levels we could achieve for the same receivers when cis-ligand was suppressed (Figure 4B). These results argue that cis interactions dominate signaling in this context. However, we have not ruled out the possibility that trans-signaling between sister cells after division contributes to the comparatively weak cis-activation observed for Notch1 receivers.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      As outlined in the public review, there is a question of whether the nuclear H2B accurately reflects the surface levels of the transmembrane proteins (ligand and receptor). Clearly, it would not be feasible to check levels in all of the experimental conditions, but some baseline conditions should be analyzed.

      We addressed this above.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1)  As mentioned above, it was unusual that Jag1 did not activate Notch1 in co-culture assays, but did activate Notch1 in plate-coating assays. The authors should add some text to the Discussion to explain why they think this is happening in their engineered cells. One possibility is that the CHO cells express Manic fringe (Mfng) which is known to reduce Jag1-Notch1 activation. Data for Mfng levels in CHO cells were not included in Supplemental Table 2. Knocking down all three Fringes in CHO cells might increase Jag1-Notch1 activation.

      This is already addressed in a sentence in the results: “Strikingly, while Jag1 sender cells failed to activate Notch1 receivers above background (Figure 2D), plate-bound Jag1-ext-Fc activated Notch1 only ~3-fold less efficiently than it activated Notch2 (Figure 3B-D). This suggests that the natural endocytic activation mechanism, or potential differences in tertiary structure between the expressed and recombinant Jag1 extracellular domains, could play roles in preventing Jag1-Notch1 signaling in coculture.” Regarding the point about Mfng, we added a note to Supplementary Table about other CHO-K1 expression data.

      (2) Figure 1-supplemental figure 1: Both the Notch1-Jag1 and Notch1-Jag2 cells show high expression of Jag1 in low 4epi, but any higher concentration reduces to control levels. How much of a problem is this for interpreting your data?

      This was not the ideal behavior, but by binning cells by co-translational reporters for ligand expression, we were able to obtain enough cells in intermediate bins. (Note: Figure 1—figure supplement 1 is now Figure 1—figure supplement 2.)

      (3)  Figure 1C legend: Are these stably-expressing cells or Tet-off cells? Please state in legend.

      The figure legend has been updated.

      (4)  Figure 1E: How long is the knockdown of Rfng and Lfng effective? Does it affect the expression of Lfng later?

      siRNA effects generally last for at least 72-96 hours, so we do not anticipate this being an issue.

      (5) Page 9: "Lfng significantly decreased trans-activation of both receptors by Jag1 (>2.5-fold)". If there is no Jag1-Notch1 activation, how can Lfng decrease trans-activation?

      We added a note in the main text to clarify that while Jag1-Notch1 signaling is relatively low, it can still be detectably decreased.

      (6) Figure 4A legend: Please define what "2.5k ea senders and Rec" means. In the text, it says "To focus on cis-interactions alone, we then cultured receiver cells at low density, amid an excess of wildtype CHO-K1 cells" (page 14).

      This was clarified in the text.

      (7)  Page 14: "By contrast, Notch2 was cis-activated by both Dll1 and Dll4, to levels exceeding those produced by trans-activation by high-Dll1 senders (Figure 4B, lower left)." Where is the trans-activation data? 4B, lower right?

      We updated this reference in the main text.

      (8)  Page 16: "For Notch2-Dll1 and Notch2-Dll4, single cell reporter activities correlated with cis-ligand expression, regardless of whether cells were pre-induced at a high or low culture density (Figure 4D)." It appears that Notch2-Dll1 has lower Notch activation at sparse culture than confluent.

      We agree that the level signaling is lower in sparse compared to confluent on average. This is explained by the sensitivity of the Tet-OFF promoter to culture density (Figure 4—figure supplement 2). However, the key point of this experiment is the positive correlation, which is consistent with cis-activation, and inconsistent with the pre-generation of NEXT hypothesis diagrammed in Figure 4C, which would not be expected to produce such a correlation.

      (9a) For the creation of the C2C12-Nkd cells: Has genomic sequencing been done to confirm editing of Notch2 and Jag1 loci?

      We confirmed the knockdown but did not do genomic sequencing.

      (9b) The gel in Figure 7-Supplement 1C is not adequate for showing loss of Jag1. It should be repeated.

      In this case, we have only the single gel. We added a note in figure legend that no duplicate was performed.

      (10) Figure 7A: Which Fringes are expressed in C2C12 cells? You should provide a rationale for knocking down just Rfng.

      Figure 7—figure supplement 1A shows the levels of expression in C2C12. Note that Mfng is not highlighted because its levels were undetectable.

      (11) Figure 7-Supplement 1D: This is confusing. Notch2 levels are not reduced in the left panel, and Notch1 and Notch2 levels are not reduced in the right panel?

      C2C12-Nkd cells exhibit reduced levels of Notch1 and Notch3. This can be seen in Figure 7—figure supplement 1A. Panel D presents the results of additional siRNA knockdown, performed to prevent subsequent up-regulation of Notch1 and Notch3 during the assay. These knockdown results were variable, as shown. The Notch2 siRNA knockdown was not essential for these experiments, but performed despite very low levels of Notch2 to begin with. In the revision, we have added this note to the Methods.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) The results section of the manuscript is very dense and difficult to follow, as are the figure legends.

      We appreciate the criticism, and regret that it is not easier to read in its current form.

      (2) The authors could emphasize areas of concordance with published results (where available) to place their artificial, engineered system into a better biological context. Are there any examples of studies in whole organisms where cis-activation plays a role?

      We are not aware of examples of cis-activation in whole organisms at this point.

      (3) How do the authors rationalize the different responses of Notch1 to cell-presented Jag1 as opposed to immobilized Jag1, where its signal strength is second in rank order on a molar basis?

      This comment was addressed above in response to the first recommendation from Reviewer #2.

      It is also difficult to understand Figure 2_—_figure Supplement 3B, in which it appears that Jag1 induces a Notch1 reporter response when LFng is knocked down (dLfng), and how those data relate to the inactive response to Jag1 shown in the main figures.

      The issue here is a difference of normalization. Figure 2A in the main text is normalized to the sender expression level, i.e. relative signaling strength. By contrast, Figure 2—figure supplement 4B (previously Figure 2—figure supplement 3B) shows absolute signaling activity, which can appear higher because it does not normalize for ligand expression. For Jag1-Notch1 signaling in particular, substantial signaling required very high levels of Jag1. We have added a new figure to demonstrate these two types of normalization (Figure 2—figure supplement 1A).

      See the Authr response image 1 below for a direct comparison of these two normalization modes using data from both Figure 2A and Figure 2—figure supplement 4B. Note how the Jag1-Notch1 signaling activities that are nonzero in the top plot go to zero in the bottom plot as a result of normalizing the values to ligand expression.

      Author response image 1. Comparison of normalization modes in Figure 2A and Figure 2—figure supplement 4B (formerly 3B). Normalized trans-activation signaling activities for different ligand-receptor combinations (with dLfng only), either with further normalization to ligand expression (bottom row) or without further normalization (top row). Normalized signaling activity is defined as reporter activity (mCitrine, A.U.) divided by cotranslational receptor expression (mTurq2, A.U.), normalized to the strongest biological replicate-averaged signaling activity across all ligand-receptor-Lfng combinations in this experiment. Saturated data points, defined here as those with normalized signaling activity over 0.75 in both dLfng and Lfng conditions, were excluded. Colors indicate the identity of the trans-ligand expressed by cocultured sender cells. Error bars denote bootstrapped 95% confidence intervals (Methods), in this case sampled from the number of biological replicates given in the legend—n1 (for Notch1) or n2 (for Notch2). See Methods and Figure 2A caption for more details. Note that the only difference between this figure and the new Figure 2—figure supplement 1A is that this figure additionally includes the Jag1-high data from Figure 2—figure supplement 4B.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, Herrmannova et al explore changes in translation upon individual depletion of three subunits of the eIF3 complex (d, e and h) in mammalian cells. The authors provide a detailed analysis of regulated transcripts, followed by validation by RT-qPCR and/or Western blot of targets of interest, as well as GO and KKEG pathway analysis. The authors confirm prior observations that eIF3, despite being a general translation initiation factor, functions in mRNA-specific regulation, and that eIF3 is important for translation re-initiation. They show that global effects of eIF3e and eIF3d depletion on translation and cell growth are concordant. Their results support and extend previous reports suggesting that both factors control translation of 5'TOP mRNAs. Interestingly, they identify MAPK pathway components as a group of targets coordinately regulated by eIF3 d/e. The authors also discuss discrepancies with other reports analyzing eIF3e function.

      Strengths:

      Altogether, a solid analysis of eIF3 d/e/h-mediated translation regulation of specific transcripts. The data will be useful for scientists working in the Translation field.

      Weaknesses:

      The authors could have explored in more detail some of their novel observations, as well as their impact on cell behavior.

      The manuscript has improved with the new corrections. I appreciate the authors' attention to the minor comments, which have been fully solved. The authors have not, however, provided additional experimental evidence that uORF-mediated translation of Raf-1 mRNA depends on an intact eIF3 complex, nor have they addressed the consequences of such regulation for cell physiology. While I understand that this is a subject of follow-up research, the authors could have at least included their explanations/ speculations regarding major comments 2-4, which in my opinion could have been useful for the reader.

      Our explanations/speculations regarding major comments 2 and 3 were included in the Discussion. We apologize for this misunderstanding as we thought that we were supposed to explain our ideas only in the responses. We did not discuss the comment 4, however, as we are really not sure what is the true effect and did not want to go into wild speculations in our manuscript. We thank this reviewer for his insightful comments and understanding.


      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Major comments:

      (1) The authors report the potential translational regulation of Raf kinase by re-initiation. It would be interesting to show that Raf is indeed regulated by uORF-mediated translation, and that this is dependent on an intact eIF3 complex. Analyzing the potential consequences of Raf1 regulation for cancer cell proliferation or apoptosis would be a plus.

      We agree that this is an interesting and likely possibility. In fact, another clue that translation of Raf1 is regulated by uORFs comes from Bohlen et al. 2023 (PMID: 36869665) where they showed that RAF1 translation is dependent on PRRC2 proteins (that promote leaky scanning through these uORFs). We noted in the discussion that our results from eIF3d/e/hKD and the PRRC2A/B/CKD partly overlap. It is a subject of our follow-up research to investigate whether eIF3 and PRRC2 co-operate together to regulate translation of this important mRNA. 

      (2) The authors show that eIF3 d/e -but not 3h- has an effect on cell proliferation. First, this indicates that proliferation does not fully correlate with eIF3 integrity. Depletion of eIF3d does not affect the integrity of eIF3, yet the effects on proliferation are similar to those of eIF3e. What is the possibility that changes in proliferation reflect functions of eIF3d outside the eIF3 complex? What could be the real consequences of disturbing eIF3 integrity for the mammalian cell? Please, discuss.

      Yes, proliferation does not fully correlate with eIF3 integrity. Downregulation of eIF3 subunits that lead to disintegration of eIF3 YLC core (a, b, c, g, i) have more detrimental effect on growth and translation than downregulation of the peripheral subunits (e, k, l, f, h, m). Our previous studies (Wagner et al. 2016, PMID: 27924037 and Herrmannová et al. 2020, PMID: 31863585) indicate that the YLC core of eIF3 can partially support translation even without its peripheral subunits. In this respect eIF3d (as a peripheral subunit) is an amazing exception, suggesting it may have some specialized function(s). Whether this function resides outside of the eIF3 complex or not we do not know, but do not think so. Mainly because in the absence of eIF3e – its interaction partner, eIF3d gets rapidly degraded. Therefore, it is not very likely that eIF3d exists alone outside of eIF3 complex with moonlighting functions elsewhere. We think that eIF3d, as a head-interacting subunit close to an important head ribosomal protein RACK1 (a landing pad for regulatory proteins), is a target of signaling pathways, which may make it important for translation of specific mRNAs. In support is these thoughts, eIF3d (in the context of entire eIF3) together with DAP5 were shown to promote translation by an alternate capdependent (eIF4F-independent) mechanism (Lee et al. 2016, PMID: 27462815; de la Parra et al. 2018, PMID:30076308). In addition, the eIF3d function (also in the context of entire eIF3) was proved to be regulated by stress-triggered phosphorylation (Lamper et al. 2020, PMID: 33184215). 

      (3) Figure 6D: Surprisingly, reduced levels of ERK1/2 upon eIF3d/e-KD are compensated by increased phosphorylation of ERK1/2 and net activation of c-Jun. Please comment on the functional consequences of buffering mechanisms that the cell deploys in order to counteract compromised eIF3 function. Why would the cell activate precisely the MAPK pathway to compensate for a compromised eIF3 function?

      This we do not know. We can only speculate that when translation is compromised, cells try to counteract it in two ways: 1) they produce more ribosomes to increase translational rates and 2) activate MAPK signaling to send pro-growth signals, which can in the end further boost ribosome biogenesis.

      (4) Regarding DAP-sensitive transcripts, can the authors discuss in more detail the role of eIF3d in alternative cap-dependent translation versus re-initiation? Are these transcripts being translated by a canonical cap- and uORF-dependent mechanism or by an alternative capdependent mechanism?

      This is indeed not an easy question. On one hand, it was shown that DAP5 facilitates translation re-initiation after uORF translation in a canonical cap-dependent manner. This mechanism is essential for translation of the main coding sequence (CDS) in mRNAs with structured 5' leaders and multiple uORFs. (Weber et al. 2022, PMID: 36473845; David et al., 2022, PMID: 35961752). On the other hand, DAP5 was proposed to promote alternative, eIF4F-independent but cap-dependent translation, as it can substitute the function of the eIF4F complex in cooperation with eIF3d (de la Parra et al., 2018, PMID: 30076308; Volta et al., 2021 34848685). Overall, these observations paint a very complex picture for us to propose a clear scenario of what is going on between these two proteins on individual mRNAs. We speculate that both mechanisms are taking place and that the specific mechanism of translation initiation differs for differently arranged mRNAs.

      Minor comments:

      (5) Figure S2C: why is there a strong reduction of the stop codon peak for 3d and 3h KDs?

      We have checked the Ribowaltz profiles of all replicates (in the Supplementary data we are showing only a representative replicate I) and the stop codon peak differs a lot among the replicates. We think that this way of plotting was optimized for calculation and visualization of P-sites and triplet periodicity and thus is not suitable for this type of comparison among samples. Therefore, we have performed our own analysis where the 5’ ends of reads are used instead of P-sites and triplicates are averaged and normalized to CDS (see below please), so that all samples can be compared directly in one plot (same as Fig. S13A but for stop codon). We can see that the stop codon peak really differs and is the smallest for eIF3hKD. However, these changes are in the range of 20% and we are not sure about their biological significance. We therefore refrain from drawing any conclusions. In general, reduced stop codon peak may signal faster termination or increased stop codon readthrough, but the latter should be accompanied by an increased ribosome density in the 3’UTR, which is not the case. A defect in termination efficiency would be manifested by an increased stop codon peak, instead.

      Author response image 1.

       

      (6) Figures 5 and S8: Adding a vertical line at 'zero' in all cumulative plots will help the reader understand the author's interpretation of the data. 

      We have added a dashed grey vertical line at zero as requested. However, for interpretation of these plots, the reader should focus on the colored curve and whether it is shifted in respect to the grey curve (background) or not. Shift to the right indicates increased expression, while shift to the left indicates decreased expression. The reported p-value then indicates the statistical significance of the shift.

      (7) The entire Figure 2 are controls that can go to Supplementary Material. The clustering of Figure S3B could be shown in the main Figure, as it is a very easy read-out of the consistent effects of the KDs of the different eIF3 subunits under analysis.

      We have moved the entire Figure 2 to Supplementary Material as suggested (the original panels can be found as Supplementary Figures 1B, 1C and 3A). Figure S3B is now the main Figure 2E. 

      (8) There are 3 replicates for Ribo-Seq and four for RNA-Seq. Were these not carried out in parallel, as it is usually done in Ribo-seq experiments? Why is there an extra replicate for RNASeq?

      Yes, the three replicates were carried out in parallel. We have decided to add the fourth replicate in RNA-Seq to increase the data robustness as the RNA-Seq is used for normalization of FP to calculate the TE, which was our main analyzed metrics in this article. We had the option to add the fourth replicate as we originally prepared five biological replicates for all samples, but after performing the control experiments, we selected only the 3 best replicates for the Ribo-Seq library preparation and sequencing.  

      (9) Please, add another sheet in Table S2 with the names of all genes that change only at the translation (RPF) levels.

      As requested, we have added three extra sheets (one for each downregulation) for differential FP with Padjusted <0.05 in the Spreadsheet S2. We also provide a complete unfiltered differential expression data (sheet named “all data”), so that readers can filter out any relevant data based on their interest.

      (10) Page 5, bottom: ' ...we showed that the expression of all 12 eIF3 subunits is interconnected such that perturbance of the expression of one subunit results in the down-regulation of entire modules...'. This is not true for eIF3d, as shown in Fig1B and mentioned in Results.

      This reviewer is correct. By this generalized statement, we were trying to summarize our previous results from Wagner et al., 2014, PMID: 24912683; Wagner et al.,2016, PMID: 27924037 and Herrmannova et al.,2020, PMID: 31863585. The eIF3d downregulation is the only exception that does not affect expression of any other eIF3 subunit. Therefore, we have rewritten this paragraph accordingly: “We recently reported a comprehensive in vivo analysis of the modular dynamics of the human eIF3 complex (Wagner et al, 2020; Wagner et al, 2014; Wagner et al., 2016). Using a systematic individual downregulation strategy, we showed that the expression of all 12 eIF3 subunits is interconnected such that perturbance of the expression of one subunit results in the down-regulation of entire modules leading to the formation of partial eIF3 subcomplexes with limited functionality (Herrmannova et al, 2020). eIF3d is the only exception in this respect, as its downregulation does not influence expression of any other eIF3 subunit.”

      (11) Page 10, bottom: ' The PCA plot and hierarchical clustering... These results suggest that eIF3h depletion impacts the translatome differentially than depletion of eIF3e or eIF3d.' This is already obvious in the polysome profiles of Figure S2C.

      We agree that this result is surely not surprising given the polysome profile and growth phenotype analyses of eIF3hKD. But still, we think that the PCA plot and hierarchical clustering results represent valuable controls. Nonetheless, we rephrased this section to note that this result agrees with the polysome profiles analysis: “The PCA plot and hierarchical clustering (Figure 2A and Supplementary Figure 4A) showed clustering of the samples into two main groups: Ribo-Seq and RNA-seq, and also into two subgroups; NT and eIF3hKD samples clustered on one side and eIF3eKD and eIF3dKD samples on the other. These results suggest that the eIF3h depletion has a much milder impact on the translatome than depletion of eIF3e or eIF3d, which agrees with the growth phenotype and polysome profile analyses (Supplementary Figure 1A and 1D).”

      (12) Page 12: ' As for the eIF3dKD "unique upregulated" DTEGs, we identified one interesting and unique KEGG pathway, the ABC transporters (Supplementary Figure 5A, in green).' This sentence is confusing, as there are more pathways that are significant in this group, so it is unclear why the authors consider it 'unique'.

      The eIF3dKD “unique upregulated” group comprises genes with increased TE only in eIF3dKD but not in eIF3eKD or eIF3hKD (500 genes, Fig 2G). All these 500 genes were examined for enrichment in the KEGG pathways, and the top 10 significant pathways were reported (Fig S6A). However, 8 out of these 10 pathways were also significantly enriched in other gene groups examined (e.g. eIF3d/eIF3e common). Therefore, the two remaining pathways (“ABC transporters” and “Other types of O-glycan biosynthesis”) are truly unique for eIF3dKD. We wanted to highlight the ABC transporters group in particular because we find it rather interesting (for the reasons mentioned in the article). We have corrected the sentence in question to avoid confusion: “Among the eIF3dKD “unique upregulated” DTEGs, we identified one interesting KEGG pathway, the ABC transporters, which did not show up in other gene groups (Supplementary Figure 6A, in green). A total of 12 different ABC transporters had elevated TE (9 of them are unique to eIF3dKD, while 3 were also found in eIF3eKD), 6 of which (ABCC1-5, ABCC10) belong to the C subfamily, known to confer multidrug resistance with alternative designation as multidrug resistance protein (MRP1-5, MRP7) (Sodani et al, 2012).

      Interestingly, all six of these ABCC transporters were upregulated solely at the translational level (Supplementary Spreadsheet S2).”    

      (13) Note typo ('Various') in Figure 4A.

      Corrected

      (14) The introduction could be shortened.

      This is a very subjective requirement. In fact, when this manuscript was reviewed in NAR, we were asked by two reviewers to expand it substantially. Because a number of various research topics come together in this work, e.g. translational regulation, the eIF3 structure and function, MAPK/ERK signaling, we are convinced that all of them demand a comprehensive introduction for non-experts in each of these topics. Therefore, with all due respect to this reviewer, we did not ultimately shorten it.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      - In Figure 2, it would be useful to know why eIF3d is destabilized by eIF3e knockdown - is it protein degradation and why do the eIF3d/e knockdowns not more completely phenocopy each other when there is the same reduction to eIF3d as in the eIF3d knockdown sample?

      Yes, we do think that protein degradation lies behind the eIF3d destabilization in the eIF3eKD, but we have not yet directly demonstrated this. However, we have shown that eIF3d mRNA levels are not altered in eIF3eKD and that Ribo-Seq data indicate no change in TE or FP for eIF3d-encoding mRNA in eIF3eKD. Nonetheless, it is important to note (and we discuss it in the article) that eIF3d levels in eIF3dKD are lower than eIF3d levels in eIF3eKD (please see Supplementary Figure 1C). In fact, we believe that this is one of the main reasons for the eIF3d/e knockdowns differences.

      - The western blots in Figures 4 and 6 show modest changes to target protein levels and would be strengthened by quantification.

      We have added the quantifications as requested by this reviewer and the reviewer 3.

      - For Figure 4, this figure would be strengthened by experiments showing if the increase in ribosomal protein levels is correlated with actual changes to ribosome biogenesis.

      As suggested, we performed polysome profiling in the presence of EDTA to monitor changes in the 60S/40S ratio, indicating a potential imbalance in the biogenesis of individual ribosome subunits. We found that it was not affected (Figure 3G). In addition, we performed the same experiment, normalizing all samples to the same number of cells (cells were carefully counted before lysis). In this way, we confirmed that eIF3dKD and eIF3eKD cells indeed contain a significantly increased number of ribosomes, in agreement with the western blot analysis (Figure 3H).

      - In Figure 6, there needs to be a nuclear loading control.

      This experiment was repeated with Lamin B1 used as a nuclear loading control – it is now shown as Fig. 5F.

      - For Figure 8, these findings would be strengthened using luciferase reporter assays where the various RNA determinants are experimentally tested. Similarly, 5′ TOP RNA reporters would have been appreciated in Figure 4.

      This is indeed a logical continuation of our work, which represents the current work in progress of one of the PhD students. We apologize, but we consider this time- and resource-demanding analysis out of scope of this article.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Within the many effects observed, it is mentioned that eIF3d is known to be overexpressed while eIF3e is underexpressed in many cancers, but knockdown of either subunit decreases MDM2 levels, which would be expected to increase P53 activity and decrease tumor cell transformation. In contrast, they also report that 3e/3d knockdown dramatically increases levels of cJUN, presumably due to increased MAPK activity, and is expected to increase protumor gene expression. Additional discussion is needed to clarify the significance of the findings, which are a bit confusing.

      This is indeed true. However, considering the complexity of eIF3, the largest initiation factor among all, as well as the broad portfolio of its functions, it is perhaps not so surprising that the observed effects are complex and may seem even contradictory in respect to cancer. To acknowledge that, we expanded the corresponding part of discussion as follows: “Here, we demonstrate that alterations in the eIF3 subunit stoichiometry and/or eIF3 subcomplexes have distinct effects on the translatome; for example, they affect factors that play a prominent (either positive or negative) role in cancer biology (e.g., MDM2 and cJUN), but the resulting impact is unclear so far. Considering the complex interactions between these factors as well as the complexity of the eIF3 complex per se, future studies are required to delineate the specific oncogenic and tumor suppressive pathways that play a predominant role in mediating the effects of perturbations in the eIF3 complex in the context of neoplasia.”

      (2) There are places in the text where the authors refer to changes in transcriptional control when RNA levels differ, but transcription versus RNA turnover wasn't tested, e.g. page 16 and Figure S10, qPCR does not confirm "transcriptional upregulation in all three knockdowns" and page 19 "despite apparent compensatory mechanisms that increase their transcription."

      This is indeed true, the sentences in question were corrected. The term “increased mRNA levels” was used instead of transcriptional upregulation (increased mRNA stabilization is also possible).

      (3) Similarly, the authors suggest that steady-state LARP1 protein levels are unaffected based on ribosome footprint counts (page 21). It is incorrect to assume this, because ribosome footprints can be elevated due to stalling on RNA that isn't being translated and doesn't yield more protein, and because levels of translated RNA/synthesized proteins do not always reflect steady-state protein levels, especially in mutants that could affect lysosome levels and protein turnover. Also page 12, 1st paragraph suggests protein production is down when ribosome footprints are changed.

      Yes, we are well-aware of this known limitation of Ribo-seq analysis. Therefore, the steadystate protein levels of our key hits were verified by western blotting. In addition, we have removed the sentence about LARP1 because it was based on Ribo-Seq data only without experimental evaluation of the steady-state LARP1 protein levels.

      (4) The translation buffering effect is not clear in some Figures, e.g. S6, S8, 8A, and B. The authors show a scheme for translationally buffered RNAs being clustered in the upper right and lower left quadrants in S4H (translation up with transcript level down and v.v.), but in the FP versus RNA plots, the non-TOP RNAs and 4E-P-regulated RNAs don't show this behavior, and appear to show a similar distribution to the global changes. Some of the right panels in these figures show modest shifts, but it's not clear how these were determined to be significant. More information is needed to clarify, or a different presentation, such as displaying the RNA subsets in the left panels with heat map coloring to reveal whether RNAs show the buffered translation pattern defined in purple in Figure S4H, or by reporting a statistical parameter or number of RNAs that show behavior out of total for significance. Currently the conclusion that these RNAs are translationally buffered seems subjective since there are clearly many RNAs that don't show changes, or show translation-only or RNA-only changes.

      We would like to clarify that S4H does not indicate a necessity for changes in FPs in the buffered subsets. Although opposing changes in total mRNA and FPs are classified as buffering, often we also consider the scenario where there are changes to the total mRNA levels not accompanied by changes in ribosome association.

      In figure S6, the scatterplots indicate a high density of genes shifted towards negative fold changes on the x-axis (total mRNA). This is also reflected in the empirical cumulative distribution functions (ecdfs) for the log2 fold changes in total mRNA in the far right panels of A and B, and the lack of changes in log2 fold change for FPs (middle panels). Similarly, in figure S8, the scatterplots indicate a density of genes shifted towards positive fold changes on the x-axis for total mRNA. The ecdfs also demonstrate that there is a significant directional shift in log2 fold changes in the total mRNA that is not present to a similar degree in the FPs, consistent with translational offsetting. It is rightly pointed out that not all genes in these sets follow the same pattern of regulation. We have revised the title of Supplementary Figure S6 (now S7) to reflect this. However, we would like to emphasize that these figures are not intended to communicate that all genes within these sets of interest are regulated in the same manner, but rather that when considered as a whole, the predominant effect seen is that of translational offsetting (directional shifts in the log2 fold change distribution of total mRNA that are not accompanied by similar shifts in FP mRNA log2 fold changes).

      The significance of these differences was determined by comparing the ecdfs of the log2 fold changes for the genes belonging to a particular set (e.g. non-TOP mTOR-sensitive, p-eIF4E-sensitive) against all other expressed genes (background) using a Wilcoxan rank sum test. This allows identification of significant shifts in the distributions that have a clear directionality (if there is an overall increase, or decrease in fold changes of FPs or total mRNA compared to background). If log2 fold changes are different from background, but without a clear directionality (equally likely to be increased or decreased), the test will not yield a significant result. This approach allows assessment of the overall behavior of gene signatures within a given dataset in a manner that is completely threshold-independent, such that it does not rely on classification of genes into different regulatory categories (translation only, buffering, etc.) based on significance or fold-change cut-offs (as in S4H). Therefore, we believe that this unbiased approach is well-suited for identifying cases when there are many genes that follow similar patterns of regulation within a given dataset.

      (5) Page 10-"These results suggest that eIF3h depletion impacts the translatome differentially than depletion of eIF3e or eIF3d" ...These results suggest that eIF3h has less impact on the translatome, not that it does so differently. If it were changing translation by a different mechanism, I would not expect it to cluster with control.

      This sentence was rewritten as follows: “The PCA plot and hierarchical clustering (Figure 2A and Supplementary Figure 4A) showed clustering of the samples into two main groups: RiboSeq and RNA-seq, and also into two subgroups; NT and eIF3hKD samples clustered on one side and eIF3eKD and eIF3dKD samples on the other. These results suggest that the eIF3h depletion has a much milder impact on the translatome than depletion of eIF3e or eIF3d, which agrees with the growth phenotype and polysome profile analyses (Supplementary Figure 1A and 1D).”

      Other minor issues:

      (1) There are some typos: Figure 2 leves, Figure 4 variou,

      Corrected.

      (2) Figure 3, font for genes on volcano plot too small

      Yes, maybe, however the resolution of this image is high enough to enlarge a certain part of it at will. In our opinion, a larger font would take up too much space, which would reduce the informativeness of this graph.

      (3) Figure S5, highlighting isn't defined.

      The figure legend for S5A (now S6A) states: “Less significant terms ranking 11 and below are in grey. Terms specifically discussed in the main text are highlighted in green.” Perhaps it was overlooked by this reviewer.

      (4) At several points the authors refer to "the MAPK signaling pathway", suggesting there is a single MAPK that is affected, e.g in the title, page 3, and other places when it seems they mean "MAPK signaling pathways" since several MAPK pathways appear to be affected.

      We apologize for any terminological inaccuracies. There are indeed several MAPK pathways operating in cells. In our study, we focused mainly on the MAPK/ERK pathway. The confusion probably stems from the fact that the corresponding term in the KEGG pathway database is labeled "MAPK signaling pathway" and this term, although singular, includes all MAPK pathways. We have carefully reviewed the entire article and have corrected the term used accordingly to either: 1) MAPK pathways in general, 2) the MAPK/ERK pathway for this particular pathway, or 3) "MAPK signaling pathway", where the KEGG term is meant.

      (5) Some eIF3 subunit RNAs have TOP motifs. One might expect 3e and 3h levels to change as a function of 3d knockdown due to TOP motifs but this is not observed. Can the authors speculate why the eIF3 subunit levels don't change but other TOP RNAs show TE changes? Is this true for other translation factors, or just for eIF3, or just for these subunits? Could the Western blot be out of linear range for the antibody or is there feedback affecting eIF3 levels differently than the other TOP RNAs, or a protein turnover mechanism to maintain eIF3 levels?

      This is indeed a very interesting question. In addition to the mRNAs encoding ribosomal proteins, we examined all TOP mRNAs and added an additional sheet to the S2 supplemental spreadsheet with all TOP RNAs listed in (Philippe et al., 2020, PMID: 32094190). According to our Ribo-Seq data, we could expect to see increased protein levels of eIF3a and eIF3f in eIF3dKD and eIF3eKD, but this is not the case, as judged from extensive western blot analysis performed in (Wagner et. al 2016, PMID: 27924037). Indeed, we cannot rule out the involvement of a compensatory mechanism monitoring and maintaining the levels of eIF3 subunits at steady-state – increasing or decreasing them if necessary, which could depend on the TOP motif-mediated regulation. However, we think that in our KDs, all non-targeted subunits that lose their direct binding partner in eIF3 due to siRNA treatment become rapidly degraded. For example, co-downregulation of subunits d, k and l in eIF3eKD is very likely caused by protein degradation as a result of a loss of their direct binding partner – eIF3e. Since we showed that the yeast eIF3 complex assembles co-translationally (Wagner et. al 2020, PMID: 32589964), and there is no reason to think that mammalian eIF3 differs in this regard, our working hypothesis is that free subunits that are not promptly incorporated into the eIF3 complex are rapidly degraded, and the presence or absence of the TOP motif in the 5’ UTR of their mRNAs has no effect. As for the other TOP mRNAs, translation factors eEF1B2, eEF1D, eEF1G, eEF2 have significantly increased FPs in both eIF3dKD and eIF3eKD, but we did not check their protein levels by western blotting to conclude anything specific.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      The detailed, thorough critique provided by the three reviewers is very much appreciated. We believe the manuscript is greatly improved by the changes we have made based on those reviews. The major changes are described below, followed by a point by point response.

      Major Changes:

      (1) We revised our model (old Fig. 10; new Fig. 9) to keep the explanation focused on the data shown in the current study. Specifically, references to GTP/GDP states of Rab3A and changes in the presynaptic quantum have been removed and the mechanisms depicted are confined to pre- or post-synaptic Rab3A participating in either controlling release of a trophic factor that regulates surface GluA2 receptors (pre- or postsynaptic) or directly affecting fusion of GluA2-receptor containing vesicles (postsynaptic).

      (2) We replaced all cumulative density function plots and ratio plots, based on multiple quantile samples per cell, with box plots of cell means. This affects new Figures 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7 and 8. All references to “scaling,” “divergent scaling,” or “uniform scaling,” have been removed. New p values for comparison of means are provided above every box plot in Figures 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7 and 8. The number of cultures is provided in the figure legends.

      (3) We have added frequency to Figures 1, 2 and 8. Frequency values overall are more variable, and the effect of activity blockade less robust, than for mEPSC amplitudes. We have added text indicating that the increase in frequency after activity blockade was significant in neurons from cultures prepared from WT in the Rab3A+/- colony but not cultures prepared from KO mice (Results, lines 143 to 147, new Fig. 1G. H). The TTX-induced increase in frequency was significant in the NASPM experiments before NASPM, but not after NASPM (Results, lines 231 to 233, new Fig. 3, also cultures from WT in Rab3A+/- colony). The homeostatic plasticity effect on frequency did not reach significance in WT on WT glia cultures or

      WT on KO glia cultures, possibly due to the variability of frequency, combined with smaller sample sizes (Results, lines 400 to 403, new Fig. 8). In the cultures prepared from WT mice in the Rab3A+/Ebd colony, there was a trend towards higher frequency after TTX that did not reach statistical significance, and in cultures prepared from mutant mice, the p value was large, suggesting disruption of the effect, which appears to be due to an increase in frequency in untreated cultures, similar to the behavior of mEPSC amplitudes in neurons from mutant mice (Results, lines 161-167). In sum, the effect of activity on frequency requires Rab3A and Ca2+-permeable receptors, and is mimicked by the presence of the Rab3A Earlybird mutant. We have also added a discussion of these results (Discussion, lines 427-435). 

      (4) In the revised manuscript we have added analysis of VGLUT1 levels for the same synaptic sites that we previously analyzed GluA2 levels, and these data are described in Results, lines 344 to 371, and appear in new Table 2. In contrast to previous studies, we did not find any evidence for an increase in VGLUT1 levels after activity blockade. We reviewed those studies to determine whether there might be differences in the experimental details that could explain the lack of effect we observed. In (De Gois et al., 2005), the authors measured mRNA and performed western blots to show increases in VGLUT1 after TTX treatment in older rat cortical cultures (DIV 19). The study performs immunofluorescence imaging of VGLUT1 but only after bicuculline treatment (it decreases), not after TTX treatment. In (Wilson et al.,

      2005), the hippocampal cultures are treated with AP5, not TTX, and the VGLUT1 levels in immunofluorescence images are reported relative to synapsin I. That the type of activity blockade matters is illustrated by the failure of Wilson and colleagues to observe a consistent increase in VGLUT1/Synapsin ratio in cultures treated with AMPA receptor blockade (NBQX; supplementary information). These points have been added to the Discussion, lines 436 to 447.)

      Reviewer #1:

      (1) (model…is not supported by the data), (2) (The analysis of mEPSC data using quantile sampling…), (3) (…statistical analysis of CDFs suffers from n-inflation…), (4) (How does recording noise and the mEPSC amplitude threshold affect “divergent scaling?”) (5) (…justification for the line fits of the ratio data…), (7) (A comparison of p-values between conditions….) and (10) (Was VGLUT intensity altered in the stainings presented in the manuscript?)

      The major changes we made, described above, address Reviewer #1’s points. The remaining points are addressed below.

      (6) TTX application induces a significant increase in mEPSC amplitude in Rab3A-/- mice in two out of three data sets (Figs. 1 and 9). Hence, the major conclusion that Rab3A is required for homeostatic scaling is only partially supported by the data. 

      The p values based on CDF comparisons were problematic, but the point we were making is that they were much larger for amplitudes measured in cultures prepared from Rab3A-/- mice (Fig. 1, p = 0.04) compared to those from cultures prepared from Rab3A+/+ mice (Fig. 1, p = 4.6 * 10-4). Now that we are comparing means, there are no significant TTX-induced effects on mEPSC amplitudes for Rab3A-/- data. However, acknowledging that some increase after activity blockade remains, we describe homeostatic plasticity as being impaired or not significant, rather than abolished, by loss of Rab3A, (Abstract, lines 37 to 39; Results, lines 141 to 143; Discussion, lines 415 to 418).

      (8) There is a significant increase in baseline mEPSC amplitude in Rab3AEbd/Ebd (15 pA) vs. Rab3AEbd/+ (11 pA) cultures, but not in Rab3A-/- (13.6 pA) vs. Rab3A+/- (13.9 pA). Although the nature of scaling was different between Rab3AEbd/Ebd vs. Rab3AEbd/+ and Rab3AEbd/Ebd with vs. without TTX, the question arises whether the increase in mEPSC amplitude in Rab3AEbd/Ebd is Rab3A dependent. Could a Rab3A independent mechanism occlude scaling?

      The Reviewer is concerned that the increase in mEPSC amplitude in the presence of the Rab3A point mutant may be through a ‘non-Rab3A’ mechanism (a concern raised by the lack of such effect in cultures from the Rab3A-/- mice), and secondly, that the already large mEPSC cannot be further increased by the homeostatic plasticity mechanism. It must always be considered that a mutant with an altered genetic sequence may bind to novel partners, causing activities that would not be either facilitated or inhibited by the original molecule. We have added this caveat to Results, lines 180 to 186 We added that a number of other manipulations, implicating individual molecules in the homeostatic mechanism, have caused an increase in mEPSC amplitude at baseline, potentially nonspecifically occluding the ability of activity blockade to induce a further increase (Results lines 186 to 189). Still, it is a strong coincidence that the novel activity of the mutant Rab3A would affect mEPSC amplitude, the same characteristic that is affected by activity blockade in a Rab3A dependent manner, a point which we added to Results, lines 189 to 191.

      (9) Figure 4: NASPM appears to have a stronger effect on mEPSC frequency in the TTX condition vs. control (-40% vs -15%). A larger sample size might be necessary to draw definitive conclusions on the contribution of Ca2+-permeable AMPARs.

      Our results, even with the modest sample size of 11 cells, are clear: NASPM does not disrupt the effect of TTX treatment on mEPSC amplitude (new Fig. 3A). It also looks like there is a greater magnitude effect of NAPSM on frequency in TTX-treated cells; we note this, but point out that nevertheless, these mEPSCs are not contributing to the increase in mEPSC amplitude (Results, lines 238-241). 

      (11) The change in GluA2 area or fluorescence intensity upon TTX treatment in controls is modest. How does the GluA2 integral change?

      We had reported that GluA2 area showed the most prominent increase following activity blockade, with intensity changing very little. When we examined the integral, it closely matched the change in area. We have added the values for integral to new Fig. 5 D, H; new Fig. 6 A-C; new Fig. 7 A-C and new Table 1 (for GluA2) and new Table 2 (for VGLUT1). These results are described in the text in the following places: Results, lines 289-292; 298-299; 311-319; 328-324). For VGLUT1, both area and intensity changed modestly, and the integral appeared to be a combination of the two, being higher in magnitude and resulting in smaller p values than either area or intensity (Results, lines 344-348; 353-359; new Table 2).

      (12) The quantitative comparison between physiology and microscopy data is problematic. The authors report a mismatch in ratio values between the smallest mEPSC amplitudes and the smallest GluA2 receptor cluster sizes (l. 464; Figure 8). Is this comparison affected by the fluorescence intensity threshold? What was the rationale for a threshold of 400 a.u. or 450 a.u.? How does this threshold compare to the mEPSC threshold of 3 pA.

      This concern is partially addressed by no longer comparing the rank ordered mEPSC amplitudes with the rank ordered GluA2 receptor characteristics. We had used multiple thresholds in the event that an experiment was not analyzable with the chosen threshold (this in fact happened for VGLUT1, see end of this paragraph). We created box plots of the mean GluA2 receptor cluster size, intensity and integral, for experiments in which we used all three thresholds, to determine if the effect of activity blockade was different depending on which threshold was applied, and found that there was no obvious difference in the results (Author response image 1). Nevertheless, since there is no need to use a different threshold for any of the 6 experiments (3 WT and 3KO), for new Figures 5, 6 and 7 we used the same threshold for all data, 450; described in Methods, lines 746 to 749. For VGLUT1 levels, it was necessary to use a different threshold for Rab3A+/+ Culture #1 (400), but a threshold of 200 for the other five experiments (Methods, lines 751-757). The VGLUT1 immunofluorescent sites in Culture #1 had higher levels overall, and the low threshold caused the entire AOI to be counted as the synapse, which clearly included background levels outside of the synaptic site. Conversely, to use a threshold of 400 on the other experiments meant that the synaptic site found by the automated measurement tool was much smaller that what was visible by eye. In our judgement it would have been meaningless to adhere to a single threshold for VGLUT1 data.

      Author response image 1.

      Using different thresholds does not substantially alter GluA2 receptor cluster size data. A) Rab3A+/+ Culture #1, size data for three different thresholds, depicted above each graph. B) Rab3A+/+ Culture #2, size data for three different thresholds, depicted above each graph. Note scale bar in A is different from B, to highlight differences for different thresholds. (Culture #3 was only analyzed with 450 threshold).

      The conclusion that an increase in AMPAR levels is not fully responsible for the observed mEPSC increase is mainly based on the rank-order analysis of GluA2 intensity, yielding a slope of ~0.9. There are several points to consider here: (i) GluA2 fluorescence intensity did increase on average, as did GluA2 cluster size.

      (ii) The increase in GluA2 cluster size is very similar to the increase in mEPSC amplitude (each approx. 1820%). (iii) Are there any reports that fluorescence intensity values are linearly reporting mEPSC amplitudes (in this system)? Antibody labelling efficiency, and false negatives of mEPSC recordings may influence the results. The latter was already noted by the authors.

      Our comparison between mEPSC amplitude and GluA2 receptor cluster characteristics has been reexamined in the revised version using means rather than rank-ordered data in rank-order plots or ratio plots. Importantly, all of these methods revealed that in one out of three WT cultures (Culture #3) GluA2 receptor cluster size (old Fig. 8, old Table 1; new Fig. 6, new Table 1), intensity and integral (new Fig. 6, new Table 1) values decreased following activity blockade while in the same culture, mEPSC amplitudes increased. It is based on this lack of correspondence that we conclude that increases in mEPSC amplitude are not fully explained by increases in GluA2 receptors, and suggest there may be other contributors. These points are made in the Abstract (lines 108-110); Results (lines 319 to 326; 330337; 341-343) and the Discussion (lines 472 to 474). To our knowledge, there are not any reports that quantitatively compare receptor levels (area, intensity or integrals) to mEPSC amplitudes in the same cultures. We examined the comparisons very closely for 5 studies that used TTX to block activity and examined receptor levels using confocal imaging at identified synapses (Hou et al., 2008; Ibata et al., 2008; Jakawich et al., 2010a; Xu and Pozzo-Miller, 2017; Dubes et al., 2022). We were specifically looking for whether the receptor data were more variable than the mEPSC amplitude data, as we found. However, for 4 of the studies, sample sizes were very different so that we cannot simply compare the p values. Below is a table of the comparisons.

      Author response table 1.

      In Xu 2017 the sample sizes are close enough that we feel comfortable concluding that the receptor data were slightly more variable (p < 0.05) than mEPSC data (p<0.01) but recognize that it is speculative to say our finding has been confirmed. A discussion of these articles is in Discussion, lines 456-474.

      (iv) It is not entirely clear if their imaging experiments will sample from all synapses. Other AMPAR subtypes than GluA2 could contribute, as could kainite or NMDA receptors.

      While our imaging data only examined GluA2, we used the application of NASPM to demonstrate Ca2+permeable receptors did not contribute quantitatively to the increase in mEPSC amplitude following TTX treatment. Since GluA3 and GluA4 are also Ca2+-permeable, the findings in new Figure 3 (old Fig. 4) likely rule out these receptors as well.  There are also reports that Kainate receptors are Ca2+-permeable and blocked by NASPM (Koike et al., 1997; Sun et al., 2009), suggesting the NASPM experiment also rules out the contribution of Kainate receptors. Finally, given our recording conditions, which included normal magnesium levels in the extracellular solution as well as TTX to block action-potential evoked synaptic transmission, NMDA receptors would not be available to contribute currents to our recordings due to block by magnesium ions at resting Vm. These points have been added to the Methods section, lines 617 to 677 (NMDA); 687-694 (Ca2+-permeable AMPA receptors and Kainate receptors).

      Furthermore, the statement “complete lack of correspondence of TTX/CON ratios” is not supported by the data presented (l. 515ff). First, under the assumption that no scaling occurs in Rab3A-/-, the TTX/CON ratios show a 20-30% change, which indicates the variation of this readout. Second, the two examples shown in Figure 8 for Rab3A+/+ are actually quite similar (culture #1 and #2, particularly when ignoring the leftmost section of the data, which is heavily affected by the raw values approaching zero.

      We are no longer presenting ratio plots in the revised manuscript, so we do not base our conclusion that mEPSC amplitude data is not always corresponding to GluA2 receptor data on the difference in behavior of TTX/CON ratio values, but only on the difference in direction of the TTX effect in one out of three cultures. We agree with the reviewer that the ratio plots are much more sensitive to differences between control and treated values than the rank order plot, and we feel these differences are important, for example, there is still a homeostatic increase in the Rab3A-/- cultures, and the effect is still divergent rather than uniform. But the comparison of ratio data will be presented elsewhere.

      (13) Figure 7A: TTX CDF was shifted to smaller mEPSC amplitude values in Rab3A-/- cultures. How can this be explained?

      While this result is most obvious in CDF plots, we still observe a trend towards smaller mEPSC amplitudes after TTX treatment in two of three individual cultures prepared from Rab3A-/- mice when comparing means (new Fig. 7, Table 1) which did not reach statistical significance for the pooled data (new Fig. 5, new Table 1). There was not any evidence of this decrease in the larger data set (new Fig. 1) nor for Rab3A-/- neurons on Rab3A+/+ glia (new Fig. 8). Given that this effect is not consistent, we did not comment on it in the revised manuscript. It may be that there is a non-Rab3A-dependent mechanism that results in a decrease in mEPSC amplitude after activity blockade, which normally pulls down the magnitude of the activity-dependent increase typically observed. But studying this second component would be difficult given its magnitude and inconsistent presentation.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For the Authors):

      (1) Abstract, last sentence: The conclusion of the present manuscript should be primarily based on the results presented. At present, it is mainly based on a previous publication by the authors.

      We have revised the last sentence to reflect actual findings of the current study (Abstract, lines 47 to 49).

      (2) Line 55: “neurodevelopmental”

      This phrase has been removed.

      (3) Line 56: “AMPAergic” should be replaced by AMPAR-mediated

      This sentence was removed when all references to “scaling” were removed; no other instances of “AMPAergic” are present.

      (4) Figure 9: The use of BioRender should be disclosed in the Figure Legend.

      We used BioRender in new Figures 3, 7 and 8, and now acknowledge BioRender in those figure legends.

      (5) Figure legends and results: The number of cultures should be indicated for each comparison.

      Number of cultures has been added to the figure legends.

      (6) Line 289: A comparison of p-values between conditions does not allow any meaningful conclusions.

      Agreed, therefore we have removed CDFs and the KS test comparison p values. All comparisons in the revised manuscript are for cell means.

      (7) Line 623ff: The argument referring to NMJ data is weak, given that different types of receptors are involved.

      We still think it is valid to point out that Rab3A is required for the increase in mEPC at the NMJ but that ACh receptors do not increase (Discussion, lines 522 to 525). We are not saying that postsynaptic receptors do not contribute in cortical cultures, only that there could be another Rab3A-dependent mechanism that also affects mEPSC amplitude.

      (8) Plotting data points outside of the ranges should be avoided (e.g., Fig. 2Giii, 7F).

      These two figures are no longer present in the revised manuscript. In revising figures, we made sure no other plots have data points outside of the ranges.

      (9) The rationale for investigating Rab3AEbd/Ebd remains elusive and should be described.

      A rationale for investigating Rab3AEbd/Ebd is that if the results are similar to the KO, it strengthens the evidence for Rab3A being involved in homeostatic synaptic plasticity. In addition, since its phenotype of early awakening was stronger than that demonstrated in Rab3A KO mice (Kapfhamer et al., 2002), it was possible we would see a more robust effect. These points have been added to the Results, lines 118 to 126.

      (10) Figures 3 and 4, as well as Figure 5 and 6 could be merged.

      In the revised version, Figure 3 has been eliminated since its main point was a difference in scaling behavior. Figure 4 has been expanded to include a model of how NASPM could reduce frequency (new Fig. 3.) Images of the pyramidal cell body have been added to Figure 5 (new Fig. 4), and Figure 6 has been completely revised and now includes pooled data for both Rab3A+/+ and Rab3A-/- cultures, for mEPSC amplitude, GluA2 receptor cluster size, intensity and integral.

      (11) Figure 5: The legend refers to MAP2, but this is not indicated in the figure.

      MAP2 has now been added to the labels for each image and described in the figure legend (new Fig. 4).

      Reviewer #2:

      Technical concerns:

      (1) The culture condition is questionable. The authors saw no NMDAR current present during spontaneous recordings, which is worrisome since NMDARs should be active in cultures with normal network activity (Watt et al., 2000; Sutton et al., 2006). It is important to ensure there is enough spiking activity before doing any activity manipulation. Similarly it is also unknown whether spiking activity is normal in Rab3AKO/Ebd neurons.

      In the studies cited by the reviewer, NMDA currents were detected under experimental conditions in which magnesium was removed. In our recordings, we have normal magnesium (1.3 mM) and also TTX, which prevents the necessary depolarization to allow inward current through NMDA receptors. This point has been added to our Methods, lines 674 to 677. We acknowledge we do not know the level of spiking in cultures prepared from Rab3A+/+, Rab3A-/- or Rab3A_Ebd/Ebd_ mice. Given the similar mEPSC amplitude for untreated cultures from WT and KO studies, we think it unlikely that activity was low in the latter, but it remains a possibility for untreated cultures from Rab3A_Ebd/Ebd_ mice, where mEPSC amplitude was increased. These points are added to the Methods, lines 615 to 622.

      (2) Selection of mEPSC events is not conducted in an unbiased manner. Manually selecting events is insufficient for cumulative distribution analysis, where small biases could skew the entire distribution. Since the authors claim their ratio plot is a better method to detect the uniformity of scaling than the well-established rank-order plot, it is important to use an unbiased population to substantiate this claim.

      We no longer include any cumulative distributions or ratio plot analysis in the revised version. We have added the following text to Methods, lines 703 to 720:

      “MiniAnalysis selects many false positives with the automated feature when a small threshold amplitude value is employed, due to random fluctuations in noise, so manual re-evaluation of the automated process is necessary to eliminate false positives. If the threshold value is set high, there are few false positives but small amplitude events that visually are clearly mEPSCs are missed, and manual re-evaluation is necessary to add back false negatives or the population ends up biased towards large mEPSC amplitudes. As soon as there is a manual step, bias is introduced. Interestingly, a manual reevaluation step was applied in a recent study that describes their process as ‘unbiased (Wu et al., 2020). In sum, we do not believe it is currently possible to perform a completely unbiased detection process. A fully manual detection process means that the same criterion (“does this look like an mEPSC?”) is applied to all events, not just the false positives, or the false negatives, which prevents the bias from being primarily at one end or the other of the range of mEPSC amplitudes. It is important to note that when performing the MiniAnalysis process, the researcher did not know whether a record was from an untreated cell or a TTX-treated cell.”

      (3) Immunohistochemistry data analysis is problematic. The authors only labeled dendrites without doing cell-fills to look at morphology, so it is questionable how they differentiate branches from pyramidal neurons and interneurons. Since glutamatergic synapse on these two types of neuron scale in the opposite directions, it is crucial to show that only pyramidal neurons are included for analysis.

      We identified neurons with a pyramidal shape and a prominent primary dendrite at 60x magnification without the zoom feature. This should have been made clear in the description of imaging. We have added an image of the two selected cells to our figure of dendrites (old Fig. 5, new Fig. 4), and described this process in the Methods, lines 736 to 739, and Results, lines 246 to 253. Given the morphology of the neurons selected it is highly unlikely that the dendrites we analyzed came from interneurons.

      Conceptual Concerns

      The only novel finding here is the implicated role for Rab3A in synaptic scaling, but insights into mechanisms behind this observation are lacking. The authors claim that Rab3A likely regulates scaling from the presynaptic side, yet there is no direct evidence from data presented. In its current form, this study’s contribution to the field is very limited.

      We have demonstrated that loss of Rab3A and expression of a Rab3A point mutant disrupt homeostatic plasticity of mEPSC amplitudes, and that in the absence of Rab3A, the increase in GluA2 receptors at synaptic sites is abolished. Further, we show that this effect cannot be through release of a factor, like TNFα, from astrocytes. In the new version, we add the finding that VGLUT1 is not increased after activity blockade, ruling out this presynaptic factor as a contributor to homeostatic increases in mEPSC amplitude. We show for the first time by examining mEPSC amplitudes and GluA2 receptors in the same cultures that the increases in GluA2 receptors are not as consistent as the increases in mEPSC amplitude, suggesting the possibility of another contributor to homeostatic increases in mEPSC amplitude. We first proposed this idea in our previous study of Rab3A-dependent homeostatic increases in mEPC amplitudes at the mouse neuromuscular junction. In sum, we dispute that there is only one novel finding and that we have no insights into mechanism. We acknowledge that we have no direct evidence for regulation from the presynaptic side, and have removed this claim from the revised manuscript. We have retained the Discussion of potential mechanisms affecting the presynaptic quantum and evidence that Rab3A is implicated in these mechanisms (vesicle size, fusion pore kinetics; Discussion, lines 537 to 563). One way to directly show that the amount of transmitter released for an mEPSC has been modified after activity blockade is to demonstrate that a fast off-rate antagonist has become less effective at inhibiting mEPSCs (because the increased glutamate released out competes it; see (Liu et al., 1999) and (Wilson et al., 2005) for example experiments). This set of experiments is underway but will take more time than originally expected, because we are finding surprisingly large decreases in frequency, possibly the result of mEPSCs with very low glutamate concentration that are completely inhibited by the dose used. Once mEPSCs are lost, it is difficult to compare the mEPSC amplitude before and after application of the antagonist. Therefore we intend to include this experiment in a future report, once we determine the reason for the frequency reduction, or, can find a dose where this does not occur.

      (1) Their major argument for this is that homeostatic effects on mEPSC amplitudes and GluA2 cluster sizes do not match. This is inconsistent with reports from multiple labs showing that upscaling of mEPSC amplitude and GluA2 accumulation occur side by side during scaling (Ibata et al., 2008; Pozo et al., 2012; Tan et al., 2015; Silva et al., 2019). Further, because the acquisition and quantification methods for mEPSC recordings and immunohistochemistry imaging are entirely different (each with its own limitations in signal detection), it is not convincing that the lack of proportional changes must signify a presynaptic component.

      Within the analyses in the revised manuscript, which are now based only on comparison of cell/dendrite means, we find a very good match in the magnitude of increase for the pooled data of mEPSC amplitudes and GluA2 receptor cluster sizes (+19.7% and +20.0% respectively; new Table 1). However, when looking at individual cultures, we had one of three WT cultures in which mEPSC amplitude increased 17.2% but GluA2 cluster size decreased 9.5%. This result suggests that while activity blockade does lead to an increase in GluA2 receptors after activity blockade, the effect is more variable than that for mEPSC amplitude. We went back to published studies to see if this has been previously observed, but found that it was difficult to compare because the sample sizes were different for the two characteristics (see Author response table 1). We included these particular 5 studies because they use the same treatment (TTX), examine receptors using imaging of identified synaptic sites, and record mEPSCs in their cultures (although the authors do not indicate that imaging and recordings are done simultaneously on the same cultures.) Only one of the studies listed by the Reviewer is in our group (Ibata et al., 2008). The study by (Tan et al., 2015) uses western blots to measure receptors; the study by (Silva et al., 2019) blocks activity using a combination of AMPA and NMDA receptor blockers; the study by (Pozo et al., 2012) correlates mEPSC amplitude changes with imaging but not in response to activity blockade, instead for changing the expression of GluA2. While it may seem like splitting hairs to reject studies that use other treatment protocols, there is ample evidence that the mechanisms of homeostatic plasticity depend on how activity was altered, see the following studies for several examples of this (Sutton et al., 2006; Soden and Chen, 2010; Fong et al., 2015). A discussion of the 5 articles we selected is in the revised manuscript, Discussion, lines 456 to 474. In sum, we provide evidence that activity blockade is associated with an overall increase in GluA2 receptors; what we propose is that this increase, being more variable, does not fully explain the increase in mEPSC amplitude. However, we acknowledge that the disparity could be explained by the differences in limitations of the two methods (Discussion, lines 469-472).

      (2) The authors also speculate in the discussion that presynaptic Rab3A could be interacting with retrograde BDNF signaling to regulate postsynaptic AMPARs. Without data showing Rab3A-dependent presynaptic changes after TTX treatment, this argument is not compelling. In this retrograde pathway, BDNF is synthesized in and released from dendrites (Jakawich et al., 2010b; Thapliyal et al., 2022), and it is entirely possible for postsynaptic Rab3A to interfere with this process cell-autonomously.

      We have added the information that Rab3A could control BDNF from the postsynaptic cell and included the two references provided by the reviewer, Discussion, lines 517 to 518. We have added new evidence, recently published, that the Rab3 family has been shown to regulate targeting of EGF receptors to rafts (among other plasma membrane molecules), with Rab3A itself clearly present in nonneuronal cells (Diaz-Rohrer et al., 2023) (added to Discussion, lines 509 to 515).

      (3) The authors propose that a change in AMPAR subunit composition from GluA2-containing ones to GluA1 homomers may account for the distinct changes in mEPSC amplitudes and GluA2 clusters. However, their data from the NASPM wash-in experiments clearly show that the GluA1 homomer contributions have not changed before and after TTX treatment.

      We have revised this section in the Discussion, lines 534 to 536, to clarify that any change due to GluA1 homomers should have been detectable by a greater ability of NASPM to reverse the TTX-induced increase.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the Authors):

      For authors to have more convincing arguments in general, they will need to clarify/improve certain details in their data collection by addressing the above technical concerns. Additionally, the authors should design experiments to test whether Rab3A regulates scaling from pre- or post-synaptic site. For example, they could sparsely knock out Rab3A in WT neurons to test the postsynaptic possibility. On the other hand, their argument for a presynaptic role would be much more compelling if they could show whether there are clear functional changes such as in vesicle sizes and release probability in the presynaptic terminal of Rab3AKO neurons.

      An important next step is to identify whether Rab3A is acting pre- or post-synaptically (Discussion, lines 572 to 573), but these experiments will be undertaken in the future. It would not add much to simply show vesicle size is altered in the KO (and we do not necessarily expect this since mEPSC amplitude is normal in the KO). It will be very difficult to establish that vesicle size is changing with activity blockade and that this change is prevented in the Rab3A KO, because we are looking for a ~25% increase in vesicle volume, which would correspond to a ~7.5% increase in diameter. Finally, we do not believe demonstrating changes in release probability tell us anything about a presynaptic role for Rab3A in regulating the size of the presynaptic quantum.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review)

      Weaknesses: However, the rather strong conclusions on the dissociation of AMPAR trafficking and synaptic response are made from somewhat weaker data. The key issue is the GluA2 immunostaining in comparison with the mEPSC recordings. Their imaging method involves only assessing puncta clearly associated with a MAP2 labeled dendrite. This is a small subset of synapses, judging from the sample micrographs (Fig. 5). To my knowledge, this is a new and unvalidated approach that could represent a particular subset of synapses not representative of the synapses contributing to the mEPSC change (they are also sampling different neurons for the two measurements; an additional unknown detail is how far from the cell body were the analyzed dendrites for immunostaining.) While the authors acknowledge that a sampling issue could explain the data, they still use this data to draw strong conclusions about the lack of AMPAR trafficking contribution to the mEPSC amplitude change. This apparent difference may be a methodological issue rather than a biological one, and at this point it is impossible to differentiate these. It will unfortunately be difficult to validate their approach. Perhaps if they were to drive NMDAdependent LTD or chemLTP, and show alignment of the imaging and ephys, that would help. More helpful would be recordings and imaging from the same neurons but this is challenging. Sampling from identified synapses would of course be ideal, perhaps from 2P uncaging combined with SEP-labeled AMPARs, but this is more challenging still. But without data to validate the method, it seems unwarranted to make such strong conclusions such as that AMPAR trafficking does not underlie the increase in mEPSC amplitude, given the previous data supporting such a model.

      In the new version, we soften our conclusion regarding the mismatch between GluA2 receptor levels and mEPSC amplitudes, now only stating that receptors may not be the sole contributor to the TTX effect on mEPSC amplitude (Discussion, lines 472 to 474). With our analysis in the new version focusing on comparisons of cell means, the GluA2 receptor cluster size and the mEPSC amplitude data match well in magnitude for the data pooled across the 3 matched cultures (20.0% and 19.7%, respectively, see new Table 1). However, in one of the three cultures the direction of change for GluA2 receptors is opposite that of mEPSC amplitudes (Table 1, Culture #3, -9.5% vs +17.2%, respectively).

      It is unlikely that the lack of matching of homeostatic plasticity in one culture, but very good matching in two other cultures, can be explained by an unvalidated focus on puncta associated with MAP2 positive dendrites. We chose to restrict analysis of synaptic GluA2 receptors to the primary dendrite in order to reduce variability, reasoning that we are always measuring synapses for an excitatory pyramidal neuron, synapses that are relatively close to the cell body, on the consistently identifiable primary dendrite. We measured how far this was for the two cells depicted in old Figure 5 (new Fig. 4). Because we always used the 5X zoom window which is a set length, and positioned it within ~10 microns of the cell body, these cells give a ball park estimate for the usual distances. For the untreated cell, the average distance from the cell body was 38.5 ± 2.8 µm; for the TTX-treated cell, it was 42.4 ± 3.2 µm (p = 0.35, KruskalWallis test). We have added these values to the Results, lines 270 to 274.

      We did not mean to propose that AMPA receptor levels do not contribute at all to mEPSC amplitude, and we acknowledge there are clear cases where the two characteristics change in parallel (for example, in the study cited by Reviewer #2, (Pozo et al., 2012), increases in GluA2 receptors due to exogenous expression are closely matched by increases in mEPSC amplitudes.) What our matched culture experiments demonstrate is that in the case of TTX treatment, both GluA2 receptors and mEPSC amplitudes increase on average, but sometimes mEPSC amplitudes can increase in the absence of an increase in GluA2 receptors (Culture #3, Rab3A+/+ cultures), and sometimes mEPSC amplitudes do not increase even though GluA2 receptor levels do increase (Culture #3, Rab3A-/- cultures). Therefore, it would not add anything to our argument to examine receptors and mEPSCs in NMDA-dependent LTP, a different plasticity paradigm in which changes in receptors and mEPSCs may more closely align. It has been demonstrated that mEPSCs of widely varying amplitude can be recorded from a single synaptic site (Liu and Tsien, 1995), so we would need to measure a large sample of individual synapse recordings to detect a modest shift in average values due to activity blockade. In addition, it would be essential to express fluorescent AMPA receptors in order to correlate receptor levels in the same cells we record from (or at the same synapses). And yet, even after these heroics, one is still left with the issue that the two methods, electrophysiology and fluorescent imaging, have distinct limitations and sources of variability that may obscure any true quantitative correlation.

      Other questions arise from the NASPM experiments, used to justify looking at GluA2 (and not GluA1) in the immunostaining. First, there is a frequency effect that is quite unclear in origin. One would expect NASPM to merely block some fraction of the post-synaptic current, and not affect pre-synaptic release or block whole synapses. It is also unclear why the authors argue this proves that NASPM was at an effective concentration (lines 399-400). Further, the amplitude data show a strong trend towards smaller amplitude. The p value for both control and TTX neurons was 0.08 – it is very difficult to argue that there is no effect. And the decrease is larger in the TTX neurons. Considering the strong claims for a presynaptic locus and the use of this data to justify only looking at GluA2 by immunostaining, these data do not offer much support of the conclusions. Between the sampling issues and perhaps looking at the wrong GluA subunit, it seems premature to argue that trafficking is not a contributor to the mEPSC amplitude change, especially given the substantial support for that hypothesis. Further, even if trafficking is not the major contributor, there could be shifts in conductance (perhaps due to regulation of auxiliary subunits) that does not necessitate a pre-synaptic locus. While the authors are free to hypothesize such a mechanism, it would be prudent to acknowledge other options and explanations.

      We have created a model cartoon to explain how NASPM could reduce mEPSC frequency (new Fig. 3D). mEPSCs that arise from a synaptic site that has only Ca2+-permeable AMPA receptors will be completely blocked by NASPM, if the NASPM concentration is maximal. The reason we conclude that we have sufficient NASPM reaching the cells is that the frequency is decreased, as expected if there are synaptic sites with only Ca2+-permeable AMPA receptors. We previously were not clear that there is an effect of NASPM on mEPSC amplitude, although it did not reach statistical significance (new Fig. 3B). Where there is no effect is on the TTX-induced increase in mEPSC amplitude, which remains after the acute NASPM application (new Fig. 3A). We have revised the description of these findings in Results, lines 220 to 241. In reviewing the literature further, we could find no previous studies demonstrating an increase in conductance in GluA2 or Ca2+-impermeable receptors, only in GluA1 homomers. In other words, any conductance change would have been due to a change in GluA1 homomers, and should have been visible as a disruption of the homeostatic plasticity by NASPM application. We have added text to Results, lines 211 to 217; 236-241; Discussion, lines 420 to 422; 526-536 and Methods, lines 685 to 695 regarding this point.

      The frequency data are missing from the paper, with the exception of the NASPM dataset. The mEPSC frequencies should be reported for all experiments, particularly given that Rab3A is generally viewed as a pre-synaptic protein regulating release. Also, in the NASPM experiments, the average frequency is much higher in the TTX treated cultures. Is this statistically above control values?

      This comment is addressed by the major change #3, above.

      Unaddressed issues that would greatly increase the impact of the paper:

      (1) Is Rab3A activity pre-synaptically, post-synaptically or both. The authors provide good evidence that Rab3A is acting within neurons and not astrocytes. But where is it acting (pre or post) would aid substantially in understanding its role (and particularly the hypothesized and somewhat novel idea that the amount of glutamate released per vesicle is altered in HSP). They could use sparse knockdown of Rab3A, or simply mix cultures from KO and WT mice (with appropriate tags/labels). The general view in the field has been that HSP is regulated post-synaptically via regulation of AMPAR trafficking, and considerable evidence supports this view. The more support for their suggestion of a pre-synaptic site of control, the better.

      This is similar to the request of Reviewer #2, Recommendations to the Authors. An important next step is to identify whether Rab3A is working pre- or postsynaptically. However, it is possible that it is acting pre-synaptically to anterogradely regulate trafficking of AMPAR, as we have depicted in our model, new Fig. 9. To demonstrate that the presynaptic quantum is being altered, we would need to show that vesicle size is increased, or the amount of transmitter being released during an mEPSC is increased after activity blockade. To that end, we are currently performing experiments using a fast off-rate antagonist. As described above in response to Reviewer #2’s Conceptual Concerns, we find dramatic decreases in frequency not explained by the 30-60% inhibition observed for the largest amplitude mEPSCs, which suggests the possibility that small mEPSCs are more sensitive than large mEPSCs and therefore may have less transmitter. Due to these complexities and the delay while we test other antagonists to see if the effect is specific to fast-off rate antagonists, we are not including these results here.

      (2) Rab3A is also found at inhibitory synapses. It would be very informative to know if HSP at inhibitory synapses is similarly affected. This is particularly relevant as at inhibitory synapses, one expects a removal of GABARs and/or a decrease of GABA-packaging in vesicles (ie the opposite of whatever is happening at excitatory synapses.). If both processes are regulated by Rab3A, this might suggest a role for this protein more upstream in the signaling, an effect only at excitatory synapses would argue for a more specific role just at these synapses.

      It will be important to determine if homeostatic synaptic plasticity at inhibitory synapses on excitatory neurons is sensitive to Rab3A deletion, especially in light of the fact that unlike many of the other molecules implicated in homeostatic increases in mEPSCS, Rab3A is not a molecule known to be selective for glutamate receptor trafficking (in contrast to Arc/Arg3.1 or GRIP1, for example). Such a study would warrant its own publication.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the Authors):

      There are a number of minor points or suggestions for the authors:

      Is RIM1 part of this pathway (or expected to be)? Some discussion of this would be nice.

      RIM, Rab3-interacting molecule, has been implicated at the drosophila neuromuscular junction in a presynaptic form of homeostatic synaptic plasticity in which evoked release is increased after block of postsynaptic receptors (Muller et al., 2012), a plasticity that also requires Rab3-GAP (Muller et al., 2011). To our knowledge there is no evidence that RIM is involved in the homeostatic plasticity of mEPSC amplitude after activity blockade by TTX. The Rim1a KO does not have a change in mEPSC amplitude relative to WT (Calakos et al., 2004), but that is not unexpected given the normal mEPSC amplitude in neurons from cultures prepared from Rab3A-/- mice in the current study. It would be interesting to look at homeostatic plasticity in cortical cultures prepared from Rim1a or other RIM deletion mice, but we have not added these points to the revised manuscript since there are a number of directions one could go in attempting to define the molecular pathway and we feel it is more important to discuss the potential location of action and physiological mechanisms.

      Is the Earlybird mutation a GOF? More information about this mutation would help.

      We have added a description of how the Earlybird mutation was identified, in a screen for rest:activity mutants (Results, lines 118 to 123). Rab3A Earlybird mice have a shortened circadian period, shifting their wake cycle earlier and earlier. When Rab3A deletion mice were tested in the same activity raster plot measurements, the shift was smaller than that for the Earlybird mutant, suggesting the possibility that it is a dominant negative mutation.

      The high K used in the NASPM experiments seems a bit unusual. Have the authors done high K/no drug controls to see if this affects the synapses in any way?

      We used the high K based on previous studies that indicated the blocking effect of the Ca2+-permeable receptor blockers was use dependent (Herlitze et al., 1993; Iino et al., 1996; Koike et al., 1997). We reasoned that a modest depolarization would increase the frequency of AMPA receptor mEPSCs and allow access of the NASPM.  We have added this point to the Methods, lines 695 to 708. 

      The NASPM experiments do not show that GluA1 does not contribute (line 401), only that GluA1 homomers are not contributing (much – see above). GluA1/A2 heteromers are quite likely involved. Also, the SEM is missing from the WT pre/post NASPM data.

      Imaging of GluA2-positive sites will not distinguish between GluA2 homomers and GluA2-GluA1 heteromers, so we have added this clarification to Results, lines 242 to 246. We have remade the NASPM pre-post line plots so that the mean values and error bars are more visible (new Fig. 3B, C).

      It seems odd to speculate based on non-significant findings (line 650-1), with lower significance (p = 0.11) than findings being dismissed in the paper (NASPM on mEPSC amplitude; p = 0.08).

      We did not mean to dismiss the effect of NASPM on mEPSC amplitude (new Fig. 3B), rather, we dismiss the effect of NASPM on the homeostatic increase in mEPSC amplitude caused by TTX treatment (new Fig. 3A). We have emphasized this distinction in Results, lines 223 to 225, and Discussion, lines 420 to 422, as well as adding that the stronger effect of NASPM on frequency after TTX treatment suggests an activity-dependent increase in the number of synapses expressing only Ca2+ permeable homomers (Results, lines 236 to 241; Discussion, lines 431 to 435).

      Fig. 4 could be labeled better (to make it clear that B is amplitude and C is freq from the same cells).

      Fig. 4 has been revised—now the amplitude and frequency plots from the same condition (new Fig. 3, B, C; CON or TTX) are in a vertical line and the figure legend states that the frequency data are from the same cells as in Fig. 3A.

      The raw amplitude data seems a bit hidden in the inset panels – I would suggest these data are at least as important as the cumulative distributions in the main panel. Maybe re-organizing the figures would help.

      We have removed all cumulative distributions, rank order plots, and ratio plots. The box plots are now full size in new Figures 1, 2, 5, 6, 7 and 8.

      I’m not sure I would argue in the paper that 12 cells a day is a limiting issue for experiments. It doesn’t add anything and doesn’t seem like that high a barrier. It is fine to just say it is difficult and therefore there is a limited amount of data meeting the criteria.

      We have removed the comment regarding difficulty.

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    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This important study enhances our understanding of the effects of landscape context on grassland plant diversity and biomass. Notably, the authors use a well-designed field sampling method to separate the effects of habitat loss and fragmentation per se. Most of the data and analyses provide solid support for the findings that habitat loss weakens the positive relationship between grassland plant richness and biomass.

      Response: Thanks very much for organizing the review of the manuscript. We are grateful to you for the recognition. We have carefully analyzed all comments of the editors and reviewers and revised our manuscript to address them. All comments and recommendations are helpfully and constructive for improving our manuscript. We have described in detail our response to each of comment below.

      In addition to the reviewers' assessments, we have the following comments on your paper.

      (1) Some of the results are not consistent between figures. The relationships between overall species richness and fragmentation per se are not consistent between Figs. 3 and 5. The relationships between aboveground biomass and habitat loss are not consistent between Figs. 4 and 5. How shall we interpret these inconsistent results?

      Response: Thanks for your insightful comments. The reason for these inconsistencies is that the linear regression model did not take into account the complex causal relationships (including direct and indirect effects) among the different influencing factors. The results in Figures 3 and 4 just represent the pairwise relationship pattern and relative importance, respectively. The causal effects of habitat loss and fragmentation per se on plant richness and above-ground biomass should be interpreted based on the structural equation model results (Figure 6). We have revised the data analysis to clear these inconsistent results. Line 225-228

      In the revised manuscript, we have added the interpretation for these inconsistent results. The inconsistent effects between Figures 3 and 6 suggest that fragmentation per se actually had a positive effect on plant richness after accounting for the effects of habitat loss and environmental factors simultaneously.

      The inconsistent effects between Figures 4 and 6 are because the effects of habitat loss and fragmentation per se on above-ground biomass were mainly mediated by plant richness and environmental factors, which had no significant direct effect (Figure 6). Thus, habitat loss and fragmentation per se showed no significant relative effects on above-ground biomass after controlling the effects of plant richness and environmental factors (Figure 4).

      (2) One of the fragmentation indices, mean patch area metric, seems to be more appropriate as a measure of habitat loss, because it represents "a decrease in grassland patch area in the landscape".

      Response: Thanks for your insightful comments. We apologize for causing this confusion. The mean patch area metric in our study represents the mean size of grassland patches in the landscape for a given grassland amount. Previous studies have often used the mean patch metric as a measure of fragmentation, which can reflect the processes of local extinction in the landscape (Fahrig, 2003; Fletcher et al., 2018). We have revised the definition of the mean patch area metric and added its ecological implication in the revised manuscript to clarify this confusion.

      (3) It is important to show both the mean and 95% CI (or standard error) of the slope coefficients regarding to Figs. 3 and 6.

      Response: Thanks for your suggestions. We have added the 95% confidence intervals to the Figure 3 and Figure 6 in the revised manuscript.

      (4) It would be great to clarify what patch-level and landscape-level studies are in lines 302-306. Note that this study assesses the effects of landscape context on patch-level variables (i.e., plot-based plant richness and plot-based grassland biomass) rather than landscape-level variables (i.e., the average or total amount of biomass in a landscape).

      Response: Thanks for your insightful comment. We agree with your point that our study investigated the effect of fragmented landscape context (habitat loss and fragmentation per se) on plot-based plant richness and plot-based above-ground biomass rather than landscape-level variables.

      Therefore, we no longer discussed the differences between the patch-level and landscape-level studies here, instead focusing on the different ecological impacts of habitat loss and fragmentation per se in the revised manuscript.

      Line 369-374:

      “Although habitat loss and fragmentation per se are generally highly associated in natural landscapes, they are distinct ecological processes that determine decisions on effective conservation strategies (Fahrig, 2017; Valente et al., 2023). Our study evaluated the effects of habitat loss and fragmentation per se on grassland plant diversity and above-ground productivity in the context of fragmented landscapes in the agro-pastoral ecotone of northern China, with our results showing the effects of these two facets to not be consistent.”

      (5) One possible way to avoid the confusion between "habitat fragmentation" and "fragmentation per se" could be to say "habitat loss and fragmentation per se" when you intend to express "habitat fragmentation".

      Response: Thanks for your constructive suggestions. To avoid this confusion, we no longer mention habitat fragmentation in the revised manuscript but instead express it as habitat loss and fragmentation per se.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      This is a well-designed study that explores the BEF relationships in fragmented landscapes. Although there are massive studies on BEF relationships, most of them were conducted at local scales, few considered the impacts of landscape variables. This study used a large dataset to specifically address this question and found that habitat loss weakened the BEF relationships. Overall, this manuscript is clearly written and has important implications for BEF studies as well as for ecosystem restoration.

      Response: We are grateful to you for the recognition and constructive comments. All the comments and suggestions are very constructive for improving this manuscript. We have carefully revised the manuscript following your suggestions. All changes are marked in red font in the revised manuscript.

      My only concern is that the authors should clearly define habitat loss and fragmentation. Habitat loss and fragmentation are often associated, but they are different terms. The authors consider habitat loss a component of habitat fragmentation, which is not reasonable. Please see my specific comments below.

      Response: We agree with your point. In the revised manuscript, we no longer consider habitat loss and fragmentation per se as two facets of habitat fragmentation. We have clearly defined habitat loss and fragmentation per se and explicitly evaluated their relative effects on plant richness, above-ground biomass, and the BEF relationship.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Title: It is more proper to say habitat loss, rather than habitat fragmentation.

      Response: Thanks for your suggestion. We have revised the title to “Habitat loss weakens the positive relationship between grassland plant richness and above-ground biomass”

      Line 22, remove "Anthropogenic", this paper is not specifically discussing habitat fragmentation driven by humans.

      Response: Thanks for your suggestion. We have removed the “Anthropogenic” from this sentence.

      Line 26, revise to "we investigated the effects of habitat loss and fragmentation per se on plant richness... in grassland communities by using a structural equation model".

      Response: Thanks for your suggestion. We have revised this sentence.

      Line 25-28:

      “Based on 130 landscapes identified by a stratified random sampling in the agro-pastoral ecotone of northern China, we investigated the effects of landscape context (habitat loss and fragmentation per se) on plant richness, above-ground biomass, and the relationship between them in grassland communities using a structural equation model.”

      Line 58-60, habitat fragmentation generally involves habitat loss, but habitat loss is independent of habitat fragmentation, it is not a facet of habitat fragmentation.

      Response: Thanks for your insightful comment. We have no longer considered habitat loss and fragmentation per se as two facets of habitat fragmentation. In the revised manuscript, we consider habitat loss and fragmentation as two different processes in fragmented landscapes.

      Line 65-67, this sentence is not very relevant to this paragraph and can be deleted.

      Response: Thanks for your suggestion. We have deleted this sentence from the paragraph.

      Line 87-90, these references are mainly based on microorganisms, are there any references based on plants? These references are more relevant to this study. In addition, this is a key mechanism mentioned in this study, this section needs to be strengthened with more evidence and further exploration.

      Response: Thanks for your comment and suggestion. Thanks for your comment and suggestion. We have added some references based on plants here to strengthen the evidence and mechanism of habitat specialisation determines the BEF relationship.

      Line 89-95:

      “In communities, specialists with specialised niches in resource use may contribute complementary roles to ecosystem functioning, whereas generalists with unspecialised in resource use may contribute redundant roles to ecosystem functioning due to overlapping niches (Dehling et al., 2021; Denelle et al., 2020; Gravel et al., 2011; Wilsey et al., 2023). Therefore, communities composed of specialists should have a higher niche complementarity effect in maintaining ecosystem functions and a more significant BEF relationship than communities composed of generalists.”

      Denelle, P., Violle, C., DivGrass, C., Munoz, F. 2020. Generalist plants are more competitive and more functionally similar to each other than specialist plants: insights from network analyses. Journal of Biogeography 47: 1922-1933.

      Dehling, D.M., Bender, I.M.A., Blendinger, P.G., Böhning-Gaese, K., Muñoz, M.C., Neuschulz, E.L., Quitián, M., Saavedra, F., Santillán, V., Schleuning, M., Stouffer, D.B. 2021. Specialists and generalists fulfil important and complementary functional roles in ecological processes. Functional Ecology 35: 1810-1821.

      Wilsey, B., Martin, L., Xu, X., Isbell, F., Polley, H.W. 2023. Biodiversity: Net primary productivity relationships are eliminated by invasive species dominance. Ecology Letters.

      Line 129-130, Although you can use habitat loss in the discussion or the introduction, here preferably use habitat amount or habitat area, rather than habitat loss in this case. Habitat loss represents changes in habitat area, but the remaining grasslands could be the case of natural succession or other processes, rather than loss of natural habitat.

      Response: Thanks for your insightful comment. We agree with your point. In the revised manuscript, we have explicitly stated that habitat loss was represented by the loss of grassland amount in the landscape.

      Since the remaining grassland fragments in this region were mainly caused by grassland loss due to human activities such as cropland expansion (Chen et al., 2019; Yang et al., 2020), we used the percentage of non-grassland cover in the landscape to represent habitat loss in our study.

      Line 132-135:

      “Habitat loss was represented by the loss of grassland amount in the landscape. As the remaining grassland fragments in this region were mainly caused by grassland loss due to human activities such as cropland expansion (Chen et al., 2019; Yang et al., 2020), the percentage of non-grassland cover in the landscape was used in our study to represent habitat loss.”

      Lines 245-246, please also give more details of the statistical results, such as n, r value et al in the text.

      Response: Thanks for your suggestion. We have added the details of the statistical results in the revised manuscript.

      Line 283-290:

      “Habitat loss was significantly negatively correlated with overall species richness (R = -0.21, p < 0.05, Figure 3a) and grassland specialist richness (R = -0.41, p < 0.01, Figure 3a), but positively correlated with weed richness (R = 0.31, p < 0.01, Figure 3a). Fragmentation per se was not significantly correlated with overall species richness and grassland specialist richness, but was significantly positively correlated with weed richness (R = 0.26, p < 0.01, Figure 3b). Habitat loss (R = -0.39, p < 0.01, Figure 3c) and fragmentation per se (R = -0.26, p < 0.01, Figure 3d) were both significantly negatively correlated with above-ground biomass.”

      Fig. 5, is there any relationship between habitat amount and fragmentation per se in this study?

      Response: Thanks for your insightful comment. We have considered a causal relationship between habitat loss and fragmentation per se in the structural equation model. We have discussed this relationship in the revised manuscript.

      Line 290-293, how about the BEF relationships with different fragmentation levels? I may have missed something somewhere, but it was not shown here.

      Response: Thanks for your insightful comment. We have added the BEF relationships with different fragmentation per se levels here.

      Line 323-340:

      “The linear regression models showed that habitat loss had a significant positive modulating effect on the positive relationship between plant richness and above-ground biomass, and fragmentation per se had no significant modulating effect (Figure 5). The positive relationship between plant richness and above-ground biomass weakened with increasing levels of habitat loss, strengthened and then weakened with increasing levels of fragmentation per se.

      Author response image 1.

      Relationships between grassland plant richness and above-ground biomass at different levels of habitat loss and fragmentation per se from 130 landscapes in the Tabu River Basin, a typical agro-pastoral ecotone of northern China: (a) high habitat loss and low fragmentation per se, (b) high habitat loss and moderate fragmentation per se, (c) high habitat loss and high fragmentation per se, (d) moderate habitat loss and low fragmentation per se, (e) moderate habitat loss and moderate fragmentation per se, (f) moderate habitat loss and high fragmentation per se, (g) low habitat loss and low fragmentation per se, (h) low habitat loss and moderate fragmentation per se. The R2 values in each panel are from linear regression models. The n in each panel is the number of surveying sites used in the linear regression models. The blue solid and dashed trend lines represent the significant and not significant effects, respectively. The shaded area around the trend line represents the 95% confidence interval. * represent significance at the 0.05 level. ** represent significance at the 0.01 level.”

      Discussion

      The Discussion (Section 4.2) needs to be revised and focused on your key findings, it is habitat loss, not fragmentation per se, that weakens the BEF relationships.

      Response: Thanks for your insightful comment and suggestion. In the revised manuscript, we have rephrased the Discussion (Section 4.2) to mainly discuss the inconsistent effects of habitat loss and fragmentation per se on the BEF relationship.

      Line 414-416:

      “4.2 Habitat loss rather than fragmentation per se weakened the magnitude of the positive relationship between plant diversity and ecosystem function”

      The R2 in the results are low (e.g., Fig. 3), please also mention other variables that might influence the observed pattern in the Discussion, such as soil and topography, though I understand it is difficult to collect such data in this study.

      Response: Thanks for your insightful comment and suggestion. We agree with you and reviewer 3 that the impact of environmental factors should also be considered.

      Therefore, we have considered two environmental factors related to water and temperature (soil water content and land surface temperature) in the analysis and discussed their impacts on plant diversity and above-ground biomass in the revised manuscript.

      Lines 344-345, its relative importance was stronger in the intact landscape than that of the fragmented landscape?

      Response: We apologize for making this confusion. We have rephrased this sentence.

      Line 422-426:

      “Our study found grassland plant diversity showed a stronger positive impact on above-ground productivity than landscape context and environmental factors. This result is consistent with findings by Duffy et al. (2017) in natural ecosystems, indicating grassland plant diversity has an important role in maintaining grassland ecosystem functions in the fragmented landscapes of the agro-pastoral ecotone of northern China.”

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, Yan et al. assess the effect of two facets of habitat fragmentation (i.e., habitat loss and habitat fragmentation per se) on biodiversity, ecosystem function, and the biodiversity-ecosystem function (BEF) relationship in grasslands of an agro-pastoral ecotone landscape in northern China. The authors use stratified random sampling to select 130 study sites located within 500m-radius landscapes varying along gradients of habitat loss and habitat fragmentation per se. In these study sites, the authors measure grassland specialist and generalist plant richness via field surveys, as well as above-ground biomass by harvesting and dry-weighting the grass communities in each 3 x 1m2 plots of the 130 study sites. The authors find that habitat loss and fragmentation per se have different effects on biodiversity, ecosystem function and the BEF relationship: whereas habitat loss was associated with a decrease in plant richness, fragmentation per se was not; and whereas fragmentation per se was associated with a decrease in above-ground biomass, habitat loss was not. Finally, habitat loss, but not fragmentation per se was linked to a decrease in the magnitude of the positive biodiversity-ecosystem functioning relationship, by reducing the percentage of grassland specialists in the community.

      Strengths:

      This study by Yan et al. is an exceptionally well-designed, well-written, clear and concise study shedding light on a longstanding, important question in landscape ecology and biodiversity-ecosystem functioning research. Via a stratified random sampling approach (cf. also "quasi-experimental design" Butsic et al. 2017), Yan et al. create an ideal set of study sites, where habitat loss and habitat fragmentation per se (usually highly correlated) are decorrelated and hence, separate effects of each of these facets on biodiversity and ecosystem function can be assessed statistically in "real-world" (and not experimental, cf. Duffy et al. 2017) communities. The authors use adequate and well-described methods to investigate their questions. The findings of this study add important empirical evidence from real-world grassland ecosystems that help to advance our theoretical understanding of landscape-moderation of biodiversity effects and provide important guidelines for conservation management.

      Weaknesses:

      I found only a few minor issues, mostly unclear descriptions in the study that could be revised for more clarity.

      Response: Thanks very much for your review of the manuscript. We are grateful to you for the recognition. All the comments and suggestions are very insightful and constructive for improving this manuscript. We have carefully studied the literature you recommend and revised the manuscript carefully following your suggestions. All changes are marked in red font in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Specific comments

      (1) Some aspects of the Methods section were not entirely clear to me, could you revise them for more clarity?

      (a) Whereas you describe 4 main facets of fragmentation per se that are used to create the PC1 as a measure of overall fragmentation per se, it looks as if this PC1 is mainly driven by 3 facets only (ED, PD and AREA_MN), and patch isolation (nearest neighbour distance, ENN) having a relatively low loading on PC1 (Figure A1). I think it would be good to discuss this fact and the consequences of it, that your definition of fragmentation is focused more on edge density, patch density and mean patch area, and less on patch isolation in your Discussion section?

      Response: Thanks for your insightful comment and suggestion. We agree with your point. We have discussed this fact and its implications for understanding the effects of fragmentation per se in our study.

      Line 384-389:

      “However, it is important to stress that the observed positive effect of fragmentation per se does not imply that increasing the isolation of grassland patches would promote biodiversity, as the metric of fragmentation per se used in our study was more related to patch density, edge density and mean patch area while relatively less related to patch isolation (Appendix Table A1). The potential threats from isolation still need to be carefully considered in the conservation of biodiversity in fragmented landscapes (Haddad et al., 2015).”

      (b) Also, from your PCA in Figure A1, it seems that positive values of PC1 mean "low fragmentation", whereas high values of PC1 mean "high fragmentation", however, in Figure A2, the inverse is shown (low values of PC1 = low fragmentation, high values of PC1 = high fragmentation). Could you clarify in the Methods section, if you scaled or normalized the PC1 to match this directionality?

      Response: We apologize for making this confusion. In order to be consistent with the direction of change in fragmentation per se, we took the inverse of the PC1 as a single fragmentation per se index, which was positively correlated with patch density, edge density, mean nearest-neighbor distance metric, and negatively with mean patch area (Appendix Figure A1 and Table A1). We have clarified this point in the Method section.

      Line 160-163:

      “We took the inverse of the PC1 as a single fragmentation per se index, which was positively correlated with patch density, edge density, mean nearest-neighbor distance metric, and negatively with mean patch area (Appendix Figure A1 and Table A1).”

      (c) On line 155 you describe that you selected at least 20 landscapes using stratified sampling from each of the eight groups of habitat amount and fragmentation combination. Could you clarify: 1) did you randomly sample within these groups with a minimum distance condition or was it a non-random selection according to other criteria? (I think you could move the "To prevent overlapping landscapes..." sentence up here to the description of the landscape selection process) 2) Why did you write "at least 20 landscapes" - were there in some cases more or less landscapes selected? 130 study landscapes divided by 8 groups only gives you 16.25, hence, at least for some groups there were less than 20 landscapes? Could you describe your final dataset in more detail, i.e. the number of landscapes per group and potential repercussions for your analysis?

      Response: Thanks for your insightful comments. In the revised manuscript, we have rephrased the method to provide more detail for the sampling landscape selection.

      (1) Line 169-172

      We randomly selected at least 20 grassland landscapes with a minimum distance condition using stratified sampling from each of the remaining eight grassland types as alternative sites for field surveys. The minimum distance between each landscape was at least 1000 m to prevent overlapping landscapes and potential spatial autocorrelation.

      (2) Line 184-191

      The reason for selecting at least 20 grassland landscapes of each type in this study was to ensure enough alternative sites for the field survey. This is because the habitat type of some selected sites was not the natural grasslands, such as abandoned agricultural land. Some of the selected sites may not be permitted for field surveys.

      Thus, we finally established 130 sites in the field survey. The types of the 130 sites were: 19 high-moderate, 14 high-low, 19 moderate-high, 16 moderate-moderate, 18 moderate-low, 16 low-high, 17 low-moderate, 11 low-low habitat amount and fragmentation per se.

      (d) On line 166, you describe that you established 130 sites of 30 m by 30 m - I assume they were located (more or less) exactly in the centre of the selected 500 m - radius landscapes? Were they established so that they were fully covered with grassland? And more importantly, how did you establish the 10 m by 10 m areas and the 1 m2 plots within the 30 m by 30 m sites? Did you divide the 30 m by 30 m areas into three rectangles of 10 m by 10 m and then randomly established 1 m2 plots? Were the 1 m2 plots always fully covered with grassland/was there a minimum distance to edge criterion? Please describe with more detail how you established the 1 m2 study sites, and how many there were per landscape.

      Response: Thanks for your insightful comments. In the revised manuscript, we have provided more detailed information on how to set up 130 sites of 30 m by 30 m and three plots of 1 m by 1 m.

      (1) As these 130 sites were selected based on the calculation of the moving window, they were located (more or less) exactly in the centre of the 500-m radius buffer.

      (2) These sites were fully covered with grassland because their size (30 m by 30 m) was the same as the size of the grassland cell (30 m by 30 m) used in the calculation of the moving window.

      (3) We randomly set up three 1 m * 1 m plots in a flat topographic area at the 10 m * 10 m centre of each site. Thus, there was a minimum distance of 10 m to the edge for each 1 m * 1 m plot.

      (4) There are three 1 m * 1 m plots per landscape.

      Line 182-191:

      “Based on the alternative sites selected above, we established 130 sites (30 m * 30 m) between late July to mid-August 2020 in the Tabu River Basin in Siziwang Banner, Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region (Figure 1). The types of the 130 sites were: 19 high-moderate, 14 high-low, 19 moderate-high, 16 moderate-moderate, 18 moderate-low, 16 low-high, 17 low-moderate, 11 low-low habitat amount and fragmentation per se. In order to exclude the impact of historical agricultural activities, the habitat type of the established sites was natural grasslands with regional vegetation characteristics. Each site was not abandoned agricultural land, and there was no sign of agricultural reclamation.

      At the 10 m * 10 m center of each site, we randomly set up three 1 m * 1 m plots in a flat topographic area to investigate grassland vascular plant diversity and above-ground productivity.”

      (e) Line 171: could you explain what you mean by reclaimed?

      Response: Thanks for your comment. The “reclaimed” means that historical agricultural activities. We have rephrased this sentence to make it more explicit.

      Line 186-189:

      “In order to exclude the impact of historical agricultural activities, the habitat type of the established sites was natural grasslands with regional vegetation characteristics. Each site was not abandoned agricultural land, and there was no sign of agricultural reclamation.”

      (f) Line 188 ff.: Hence your measure of productivity is average-above ground biomass per 1 m2. I think it would add clarity if you highlighted this more explicitly.

      Response: Thanks for your suggestion. We have highlighted that the productivity in our study was the average above-ground biomass per 1 m * 1 m plots in each site.

      Line 215-217:

      “For each site, we calculated the mean vascular plant richness of the three 1 m * 1 m plots, representing the vascular plant diversity, and mean above-ground biomass of the three 1 m * 1 m plots, representing the above-ground productivity.”

      (2) All figures are clear and well-designed!

      (a) Just as a suggestion: in Figures 3 and 6, you could maybe add the standard errors of the mean as well?

      Response: Thanks for your suggestion. In the revised manuscript, we have added the standard errors of the mean in Figures 3 and 6.

      (b) Figure 4: Could you please clarify: Which models were the optimal models on which these model-averaged standardized parameter estimates were based on? And hence, the optimal models contained all 4 predictors (otherwise, no standardized parameter estimate could be calculated)? Or do these model-averaged parameters take into account all possible models (and not only the optimal ones)?

      Response: Thanks for your suggestion. We selected the four optimal models based on the AICc value to calculate the model-averaged standardized parameter estimates. The four optimal models contained all predictors in Figure 4. We have added the four optimal models in Appendix Table A3.

      Appendix:

      Author response table 1.

      Four optimal models of landscape context, environment factors, and plant diversity affecting above-ground biomass.

      Note: AGB: above-ground biomass; HL: habitat loss; FPS: fragmentation per se; SWT: soil water content; LST: land surface temperature; GSR: grassland specialist richness; WR: weed richness; **: significance at the 0.01 level.”

      (c) Please add in all Figures (i.e., Figures 4, 5 and 6, Figure 6 per "high, moderate and low-class") the number of study units the analyses were based on.

      Response: Thanks for your suggestion. In the revised manuscript, we have added the number of study units the analyses were based on in all Figures.

      (d) Figure 6: I think it would be more consistent to add a second plot where the BEF-relationship is shown for low, moderate and high levels of habitat fragmentation per se. Could you also add a clearer description in the Methods and/or Results section of how you assessed if habitat amount or fragmentation per se affected the BEF-relationship? I.e. based on the significance of the interaction term (habitat amount x species richness) in a linear model?

      Response: Thanks for your insightful comment and suggestion. We have added a second plot in Figure 5 to show the BEF relationship at low, moderate and high levels of fragmentation per se.

      Line 328-340:

      Author response image 2.

      Relationships between grassland plant richness and above-ground biomass at different levels of habitat loss and fragmentation per se from 130 landscapes in the Tabu River Basin, a typical agro-pastoral ecotone of northern China: (a) high habitat loss and low fragmentation per se, (b) high habitat loss and moderate fragmentation per se, (c) high habitat loss and high fragmentation per se, (d) moderate habitat loss and low fragmentation per se, (e) moderate habitat loss and moderate fragmentation per se, (f) moderate habitat loss and high fragmentation per se, (g) low habitat loss and low fragmentation per se, (h) low habitat loss and moderate fragmentation per se. The R2 values in each panel are from linear regression models. The n in each panel is the number of surveying sites used in the linear regression models. The blue solid and dashed trend lines represent the significant and not significant effects, respectively. The shaded area around the trend line represents the 95% confidence interval. * represent significance at the 0.05 level. ** represent significance at the 0.01 level.”

      We determined whether habitat loss and fragmentation per se moderated the BEF relationship by testing the significance of their interaction term with plant richness. We have added a clearer description in the Methods section of the revised manuscript.

      Line 245-250:

      “We then assessed the significance of interaction terms between habitat loss and fragmentation per se and plant richness in the linear regression models to evaluate whether they modulate the relationship between plant richness and above-ground biomass. Further, we used a piecewise structural equation model to investigate the specific pathways in which habitat loss and fragmentation per se modulate the relationship between plant richness and above-ground biomass.”

      (3) While reading your manuscript, I missed a discussion on the potential non-linear effects of habitat amount and fragmentation per se. In your study, it seems that the effects of habitat amount and fragmentation per se on biodiversity and ecosystem function are quite linear, which contrasts previous research highlighting that intermediate levels of fragmentation/heterogeneity could maximise spatial asynchrony, biodiversity and ecosystem function (e.g. Redon et al. 2014, Thompson & Gonzalez 2016, Tscharntke et al. 2012, Wilcox et al. 2017). I think it would add depth to your study if you discussed your finding of linear effects of habitat amount and fragmentation on biodiversity, ecosystem functioning and BEF. For example:

      Response: Thanks for your constructive suggestions. We have carefully studied the literature (e.g. Redon et al. 2014, Thompson & Gonzalez 2016, Tscharntke et al. 2012, Wilcox et al. 2017), which highlights that intermediate levels of fragmentation/heterogeneity could maximise spatial asynchrony, biodiversity and ecosystem function.

      In the revised manuscript, we have added the discussion about the linear positive effects of fragmentation on plant diversity and above-ground productivity and discussed possible reasons for this linear effect.

      Line 402-413:

      “In our study, a possible mechanism for the positive impacts of fragmentation per se on plant diversity and above-ground productivity (indirect positive impact via plant diversity) is that fragmentation per se increases the habitat heterogeneity in the landscape, which can promote biodiversity through spatial asynchrony and spatial insurance effects (Tscharntke et al., 2012). Previous studies indicated that heterogeneity typically has nonlinear effects on biodiversity and ecosystem function, as moderate heterogeneity can maximise spatial asynchrony (Redon et al., 2014; Wilcox et al., 2017). However, our study did not observe nonlinear patterns between fragmentation per se and plant diversity and above-ground productivity. This may be due to the low spatial heterogeneity of this area as a result of agricultural intensification (Benton et al., 2003; Chen et al., 2019). The gradient of fragmentation per se in our study may not cover the optimal heterogeneity levels for maximising plant diversity and above-ground productivity (Thompson and Gonzalez, 2016).”

      Meanwhile, we also discussed the nonlinear pattern of the BEF relationship with increasing levels of fragmentation per se to add depth to the discussion.

      Line 442-451:

      “In addition, our study found that the BEF relationship showed a nonlinear pattern with increasing levels of fragmentation per se. For a given level of habitat loss, the positive BEF relationship was strongest at moderate fragmentation per se level and became neutral at high fragmentation per se level. This can be explained by the increased spatial asynchrony at moderate fragmentation per se level, which can promote niche complementary among species in the community and thus strengthen the BEF relationship (Gonzalez et al., 2020; Thompson and Gonzalez, 2016; Tscharntke et al., 2012). The neutral BEF relationship at high fragmentation per se level may be due to edge effects enhancing environmental filtering, thereby leading to functional redundancy among species and decoupling the BEF relationship (Fetzer et al., 2015; Hu et al., 2016; Zambrano et al., 2019).”

      (a) Line 74-75: I was wondering if you also thought of spatial insurance effects or spatial asynchrony effects that can emerge with habitat fragmentation, which could lead to increased ecosystem functioning as well? (refs. above).

      Response: Thanks for your constructive suggestions. In the revised manuscript, we have explicitly considered the spatial insurance effect or spatial asynchrony as the important mechanism for fragmentation per se to increase plant diversity, ecosystem function, and the BEF relationship.

      Line 74-77:

      “In theory, habitat loss and fragmentation per se can regulate ecosystem function and the BEF relationship by altering species composition, interactions, and spatial asynchrony regardless of changes in species richness (Liu et al., 2018; Thompson and Gonzalez, 2016; Tscharntke et al., 2012).”

      Line 402-408:

      “In our study, a possible mechanism for the positive impacts of fragmentation per se on plant diversity and above-ground productivity (indirect positive impact via plant diversity) is that fragmentation per se increases the habitat heterogeneity in the landscape, which can promote biodiversity through spatial asynchrony and spatial insurance effects (Tscharntke et al., 2012). Previous studies indicated that heterogeneity typically has nonlinear effects on biodiversity and ecosystem function, as moderate heterogeneity can maximise spatial asynchrony (Redon et al., 2014; Wilcox et al., 2017).”

      Line 442-451:

      “In addition, our study found that the BEF relationship showed a nonlinear pattern with increasing levels of fragmentation per se. For a given level of habitat loss, the positive BEF relationship was strongest at moderate fragmentation per se level and became neutral at high fragmentation per se level. This can be explained by the increased spatial asynchrony at moderate fragmentation per se level, which can promote niche complementary among species in the community and thus strengthen the BEF relationship (Gonzalez et al., 2020; Thompson and Gonzalez, 2016; Tscharntke et al., 2012). The neutral BEF relationship at high fragmentation per se level may be due to edge effects enhancing environmental filtering, thereby leading to functional redundancy among species and decoupling the BEF relationship (Fetzer et al., 2015; Hu et al., 2016; Zambrano et al., 2019).”

      (b) I was wondering, if this result of linear effects could also be the result of a fragmentation gradient that does not cover the whole range of potential values? Maybe it would be good to compare the gradient in habitat fragmentation in your study with a theoretical minimum maximum/considering that there might be an optimal medium degree of fragmentation.

      Response: Thanks for your insightful comment. We agree with your point that the linear effect of fragmentation per se in our study may be due to the fact that the gradient of fragmentation per se in this region may not cover the optimal heterogeneity levels for maximising spatial asynchrony. This is mainly because the agricultural intensification in the agro-pastoral ecotone of northern China could lead to lower spatial heterogeneity in this region. We have explicitly discussed this point in the revised manuscript.

      Line 406-413:

      “Previous studies indicated that heterogeneity typically has nonlinear effects on biodiversity and ecosystem function, as moderate heterogeneity can maximise spatial asynchrony (Redon et al., 2014; Wilcox et al., 2017). However, our study did not observe nonlinear patterns between fragmentation per se and plant diversity and above-ground productivity. This may be due to the low spatial heterogeneity of this area as a result of agricultural intensification (Benton et al., 2003; Chen et al., 2019). The gradient of fragmentation per se in our study may not cover the optimal heterogeneity levels for maximising plant diversity and above-ground productivity (Thompson and Gonzalez, 2016).”

      (4) Some additional suggestions:

      (a) Line 3: Maybe add "via reducing the percentage of grassland specialists in the community"?

      Response: Thanks for your suggestion. We have revised this sentence.

      Line 19:

      “Habitat loss can weaken the positive BEF relationship via reducing the percentage of grassland specialists in the community”

      (b) Lines 46-48: Maybe add "but see: Duffy, J.E., Godwin, C.M. & Cardinale, B.J. (2017). Biodiversity effects in the wild are common and as strong as key drivers of productivity. Nature."

      Response: Thanks for your suggestion. We have added this reference here.

      Line 47-49:

      “When research expands from experiments to natural systems, however, BEF relationships remain unclear in the natural assembled communities, with significant context dependency (Hagan et al., 2021; van der Plas, 2019; but see Duffy et al., 2017).”

      (c) Lines 82-87 and lines 90-93: Hence, your study actually is in contrast to these findings, i.e., fragmented landscapes do not necessarily have a lower fraction of grassland specialists? If yes, could you highlight this more explicitly?

      Response: Thanks for your insightful comment. We have explicitly highlighted this point in the revised manuscript.

      Line 434-439:

      “Meanwhile, our study demonstrates that habitat loss, rather than fragmentation per se, can decrease the degree of habitat specialisation by leading to the replacement of specialists by generalists in the community, thus weakening the BEF relationship. This is mainly because fragmentation per se did not decrease the grassland specialist richness in this region, whereas habitat loss decreased the grassland specialist richness and led to the invasion of more weeds from the surrounding farmland into the grassland community (Yan et al., 2022; Yan et al., 2023).”

      (d) Line 360: Could you add some examples of these multiple ecosystem functions you refer to?

      Response: Thanks for your suggestion. We have added some examples of these multiple ecosystem functions here.

      Line 456-457:

      “Therefore, future studies are needed to focus on multiple ecosystem functions, such as below-ground productivity, litter decomposition, soil carbon stocks, etc.”

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors aim to solve how landscape context impacts the community BEF relationship. They found habitat loss and fragmentation per se have inconsistent effects on biodiversity and ecosystem function. Habitat loss rather than fragmentation per se can weaken the positive BEF relationship by decreasing the degree of habitat specialization of the community.

      Strengths:

      The authors provide a good background, and they have a good grasp of habitat fragmentation and BEF literature. A major strength of this study is separating the impacts of habitat loss and fragmentation per se using the convincing design selection of landscapes with different combinations of habitat amount and fragmentation per se. Another strength is considering the role of specialists and generalists in shaping the BEF relationship.

      Response: We are grateful to you for the recognition and constructive comments. All the comments and suggestions are very constructive for improving this manuscript. We have carefully revised the manuscript following your suggestions. All changes are marked in red font in the revised manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The authors used five fragmentation metrics in their study. However, the choice of these fragmentation metrics was not well justified. The ecological significance of each fragmentation metric needs to be differentiated clearly. Also, these fragmentation metrics may be highly correlated with each other and redundant. I suggest author test the collinearity of these fragmentation metrics for influencing biodiversity and ecosystem function.

      Response: Thanks for your constructive suggestion. The fragmentation metrics used in our study represent the different processes of breaking apart of habitat in the landscape, which are widely used by previous studies (Fahrig, 2003; Fahrig, 2017). In the revised manuscript, we have provided more detailed information about the ecological significance of these fragmentation indices.

      Line 142-148:

      “The patch density metric reflects the breaking apart of habitat in the landscape, which is a direct reflection of the definition of fragmentation per se (Fahrig et al., 2019). The edge density metric reflects the magnitude of the edge effect caused by fragmentation (Fahrig, 2017). The mean patch area metric and the mean nearest-neighbor distance metric are associated with the area and distance effects of island biogeography, respectively, reflecting the processes of local extinction and dispersal of species in the landscape (Fletcher et al., 2018).”

      Meanwhile, we have calculated the variance inflation factors (VIF) for each fragmentation metric to assess their collinearity. The VIF of these fragmentation metrics were all less than four, suggesting no significant multicollinearity for influencing biodiversity and ecosystem function.

      Author response table 2.

      Variance inflation factors of habitat loss and fragmentation per se indices for influencing plant richness and above-ground biomass.

      (2) I found the local environmental factors were not considered in the study. As the author mentioned in the manuscript, temperature and water also have important impacts on biodiversity and ecosystem function in the natural ecosystem. I suggest authors include the environmental factors in the data analysis to control their potential impact, especially the structural equation model.

      Response: Thanks for your constructive suggestion. We agree with you that environmental factors should be considered in our study. In the revised manuscript, we have integrated two environmental factors related to water and temperature (soil water content and land surface temperature) into the data analysis to control their potential impact. The main results and conclusions of the revised manuscript are consistent with those of the previous manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) L60-63. The necessity to distinguish between habitat loss and fragmentation per se is not clearly stated. More information about biodiversity conservation strategies can be given here.

      Response: Thanks for your suggestion. In the revised manuscript, we have provided more evidence about the importance of distinguishing between habitat loss and fragmentation per se for biodiversity conservation.

      Line 62-67:

      “Habitat loss is often considered the major near-term threat to the biodiversity of terrestrial ecosystems (Chase et al., 2020; Haddad et al., 2015), while the impact of fragmentation per se remains debated (Fletcher Jr et al., 2023; Miller-Rushing et al., 2019). Thus, habitat loss and fragmentation per se may have inconsistent ecological consequences and should be considered simultaneously to establish effective conservation strategies in fragmented landscapes (Fahrig et al., 2019; Fletcher et al., 2018; Miller-Rushing et al., 2019).”

      (2) L73-77. The two sentences are hard to follow. Please rephrase to improve the logic. And I don't understand the "however" here. There is no twist.

      Response: Thanks for your suggestion. We have rephrased the two sentences to improve their logic.

      Line 74-79:

      “In theory, habitat loss and fragmentation per se can regulate ecosystem function and the BEF relationship by altering species composition, interactions, and spatial asynchrony regardless of changes in species richness (Liu et al., 2018; Thompson and Gonzalez, 2016; Tscharntke et al., 2012). This is because species in communities are not ecologically equivalent and may respond differently to habitat loss and fragmentation per se, and contribute unequally to ecosystem function (Devictor et al., 2008; Wardle and Zackrisson, 2005).”

      (3) L97. Are grasslands really the largest terrestrial ecosystem? Isn't it the forest?

      Response: We apologize for making this confusion. We have rephrased this sentence here.

      Line 101-104:

      “Grasslands have received considerably less attention, despite being one of the largest terrestrial ecosystems, and suffering severe fragmentation due to human activities, such as agricultural reclamation and urbanisation (Fardila et al., 2017).”

      (4) Fig.1, whether the four sample plots presented in panel b are from panel a. Please add the scale bar in panel b.

      Response: Thanks for your comment. The four sample plots presented in panel b are from panel a in Figure 1. We have also added the scale bar in panel b.

      (5) L105. This statement is too specific. Please remove and consider merging this paragraph with the next.

      Response: Thanks for your suggestion. We have removed this sentence and merged this paragraph with the next.

      (6) L157. The accuracy and kappa value of the supervised classification should be given.

      Response: Thanks for your suggestion. We have added the accuracy and kappa value of the supervised classification in the revised manuscript.

      Line 176-177:

      “The overall classification accuracy was 84.3 %, and the kappa coefficient was 0.81.”

      (7) I would recommend the authors provide the list of generalists and specialists surveyed in the supplementary. Readers may not be familiar with the plant species composition in this area.

      Response: Thanks for your suggestion. We agree with your point. We have provided the list of generalists and specialists surveyed in the Appendix Table A4.

      Line 282-283:

      “A total of 130 vascular plant species were identified in our study sites, including 91 grassland specialists and 39 weeds (Appendix Table A4).”

      (8) Fig.4, it is better to add the results of variation partition to present the relative contribution of habitat fragmentation, environmental factors, and plant diversity.

      Response: Thanks for your suggestion. We have integrated the landscape context, environmental factors, and plant diversity into the multi-model averaging analysis and redraw Figure 4 to present their relative importance for above-ground biomass.

      Line 313-319:

      Author response image 3.

      Standardised parameter estimates and 95% confidence intervals for landscape context, plant diversity, and environmental factors affecting above-ground biomass from 130 landscapes in the Tabu River Basin, a typical agro-pastoral ecotone of northern China. Standardised estimates and 95% confidence intervals are calculated by the multi-model averaging method based on the four optimal models affecting above-ground biomass (Appendix Table A3). ** represent significance at the 0.01 level.

      (9) Please redraw Fig.2 and Fig.5 to integrate the environmental factors. Add the R-square to Fig 5.

      Response: Thanks for your suggestion. We have integrated two environmental factors into the structural equation model and redraw Figure 2 and Figure 5 in the revised manuscript. And we have added the R-square to the Figure 5.

      (10) L354. The authors should be careful to claim that habitat loss could reduce the importance of plant diversity to ecosystem function. This pattern observed may depend on the type of ecosystem function studied.

      Response: Thanks for your suggestion. We have avoided this claim in the revised manuscript and explicitly discussed the importance of simultaneously focusing on multiple ecosystem functions, such as below-ground productivity, litter decomposition, soil carbon stocks, etc.

      Line 454-457:

      “This inconsistency can be explained by trade-offs between different ecosystem functions that may differ in their response to fragmentation per se (Banks-Leite et al., 2020). Therefore, future studies are needed to focus on multiple ecosystem functions, such as below-ground productivity, litter decomposition, soil carbon stocks, etc.”

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment This valuable paper reports a theoretical framework and methodology for identifying Cancer Driving Nucleotides (CDNs), primarily based on single nucleotide variant (SNV) frequencies. A variety of solid approaches indicate that a mutation recurring three or more times is more likely to reflect selection rather than being the consequence of a mutation hotspot. The method is rigorously quantitative, though the requirement for larger datasets to fully identify all CDNs remains a noted limitation. The work will be of broad interest to cancer geneticists and evolutionary biologists. 

      The key criticism “the requirement for larger datasets to fully identify all CDNs remains a noted limitation” that is also found in both reviews. We have clarified the issue in the main text, the relevant parts, from which are copied below. The response below also addresses many comments in the reviews. In addition, Discussion of eLife-RP-RA-2024-99341 has been substantially expanded to answer the questions of Reviewer 2.

      We shall answer the boldface comment in three ways. First, it can be answered using GENIE data. Fig. 7 of the main text (eLife-RP-RA-2024-99340) shows that, when n increases from ~ 1000 to ~ 9,000, the numbers of discovered CDNs increase by 3 – 5 fold, most of which come from the two-hit class. Hence, the power of discovering more CDNs with larger datasets is evident. By extrapolation, a sample size of 100,000 should be able to yield 90% of all CDNs, as calculated here. (Fig. 7 also addresses the queries of whether we have used datasets other than TCGA. We indeed have used all public data, including GENIE and COSMIC.) 

      Second, the power of discovering more cancer driver genes by our theory is evident even without using larger datasets. Table 3 of the companion study (eLife-RP-RA-2024-99341) shows that, averaged across cancer types, the conventional method would identify 45 CDGs while the CDN method tallies 258 CDGs. The power of the CDN method is demonstrated. This is because the conventional approach has to identify CDGs (cancer driver genes) in order to identify the CDNs they carry. However, many CDNs occur in non-CDGs and are thus missed by the conventional approach. In Supplementary File S2, we have included a full list of CDNs discovered in our study, along with population allele frequency annotations from gnomAD. The distribution patterns of these CDNs across different cancer types show their pan-cancer properties as further explored in the companion paper.

      Third, while many, or even most CDNs occur in non-CDGs and are thus missed, the conventional approach also includes non-CDN mutations in CDGs. This is illustrated in Fig. 5 of the companion study (eLife-RP-RA-2024-99341) that shows the adverse effect of misidentifications of CDNs by the conventional approach. In that analysis, the gene-targeting therapy is effective if the patient has the CDN mutations on EGFR, but the effect is reversed if the EGFR mutations are non-CDN mutations.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The authors developed a rigorous methodology for identifying all Cancer Driving Nucleotides (CDNs) by leveraging the concept of massively repeated evolution in cancer. By focusing on mutations that recur frequently in pan-cancer, they aimed to differentiate between true driver mutations and neutral mutations, ultimately enhancing the understanding of the mutational landscape that drives tumorigenesis. Their goal was to call a comprehensive catalogue of CDNs to inform more effective targeted therapies and address issues such as drug resistance.

      Strengths

      (1) The authors introduced a concept of using massively repeated evolution to identify CDNs. This approach recognizes that advantageous mutations recur frequently (at least 3 times) across cancer patients, providing a lens to identify true cancer drivers.

      (2) The theory showed the feasibility of identifying almost all CDNs if the number of sequenced patients increases to 100,000 for each cancer type.

      Weaknesses

      (1) The methodology remains theoretical and no novel true driver mutations were identified in this study.

      We now address the weakness criticism, which is gratefully received.

      The second part of the criticism (no novel true driver mutations were identified in this study) has been answered in the long responses to eLife assessment above. The first part “The methodology remains theoretical” is somewhat unclear. It might be the lead to the second part. However, just in case, we interpret the word “theoretical” to mean “the lack of experimental proof” and answer below.

      As Reviewer #1 noted, a common limitation of theoretical and statistical analyses of cancer drivers is the need to validate their selective advantage through in vitro or in vivo functional testing. This concern is echoed by both reviewers in the companion paper (eLife-RP-RA-2024-99341), prompting us to consider the methodology for functional testing of potential cancer drivers. An intuitive approach would involve introducing putative driver mutations into normal cells and observing phenotypic transformation in vitro and in vivo. In a recent stepwise-edited human melanoma model, Hodis et al. demonstrated that disease-relevant phenotypes depend on the “correct” combinations of multiple driver mutations (Hodis et al. 2022). Other high-throughput strategies can be broadly categorized into two approaches: (1) introducing candidate driver mutations into pre-malignant model systems that already harbor a canonical mutant driver (Drost and Clevers 2018; Grzeskowiak et al. 2018; Michels et al. 2020) and (2) introducing candidate driver mutations into growth factor-dependent cell models and assessing their impact on resulting fitness (Bailey et al. 2018; Ng et al. 2018). The underlying assumption of these strategies is that the fitness outcomes of candidate driver mutations are influenced by pre-existing driver mutations and the specific pathways or cancer hallmarks being investigated. This confines the functional test of potential cancer driver mutations to conventional cancer pathways. A comprehensive identification of CDNs is therefore crucial to overcome these limitations. In conjunction with other driver signal detection methods, our study aims to provide a more comprehensive profile of driver mutations, thereby enabling the functional testing of drivers involved in non-conventional cancer evolution pathways.

      (2) Different cancer types have unique mutational landscapes. The methodology, while robust, might face challenges in uniformly identifying CDNs across various cancers with distinct genetic and epigenetic contexts.

      We appreciate the comment. Indeed, different cancer types should have different genetic and epigenetic landscapes. In that case, one may have expected CDNs to be poorly shared among cancer types. However, as reported in Fig. 4 of the companion study, the sharing of CDNs across cancer types is far more common than the sharing of CDGs (Cancer Driving Genes). We suggest that CDNs have a much higher resolution than CDGs, whereby the signals are diluted by non-driver mutations. In other words, despite that the mutational landscape may be cancer-type specific, the pan-cancer selective pressure may be sufficiently high to permit the detection of CDN sharing among cancer types.

      Below, we shall respond in greater details. Epigenetic factors, such as chromatin states, methylation/acetylation levels, and replication timing, can provide valuable insights when analyzing mutational landscapes at a regional scale (Stamatoyannopoulos et al. 2009; Lawrence et al. 2013; Makova and Hardison 2015; Baylin and Jones 2016; Alexandrov et al. 2020; Abascal et al. 2021; Sherman et al. 2022). However, at the site-specific level, the effectiveness of these covariates in predicting mutational landscapes depends on their integration into a detailed model. Overemphasizing these covariates could lead to false negatives for known driver mutations (Hess et al. 2019; Elliott and Larsson 2021). In figure 3B of the main text, we illustrate the discrepancy between the mutation rate predictions from Dig and empirical observation. Ideally, no covariates would be needed under extensive sample sizes, where each mutable genomic sites would have sufficient mutations to yield a statistic significance and consequently, synonymous mutations would be sufficient for the characterization of mutational landscape. In this sense, the integration of mutational covariates represents a compromise under current sample size. In our study, the effect of unique mutational landscapes is captured by E(u), the mean mutation rate for each cancer type. We further accounted for the variability of site-level mutability using a gamma distribution. The primary goal of our study is to determine the upper limit of mutation recurrences under mutational mechanisms only. While selection force acts blindly to genomic features, mutational hotspots should exhibit common characteristics determined by their underlying mechanisms. In the main text, we attempted to identify such shared features among CDNs. Until these mutational mechanisms are fully understood, CDNs should be considered as potential driver mutations.

      (3) L223, the statement "In other words, the sequences surrounding the high-recurrence sites appear rather random.". Since it was a pan-cancer analysis, the unique patterns of each cancer type could be strongly diluted in the pan-cancer data.

      We now state that the analyses of mutation characteristic have been applied to the individual cancer types and did not find any pattern that deviates from randomness. Nevertheless, it may be argued that, with the exception of those with sufficiently large sample sizes such as lung and breast cancers, most datasets do not have the power to reject the null hypothesis. To alleviate this concern, we applied the ResNet and LSTM/GRU methods for the discovery of potential mutation motifs within each cancer type. All methods are more powerful than the one used but the results are the same – no cancer type yields a mutation pattern that can reject the null hypothesis of randomness (see below).

      As a positive control, we used these methods for the discovery of splicing sites of human exons. When aligned up with splicing site situated in the center (position 51 in the following plot), the sequence motif would look like:

      Author response image 1.

      5-prime

      Author response image 2.

      3-prime

      However, To account for the potential influence of distance from the mutant site in motif analysis, we randomly shuffled the splicing sites within a specified window around the alignment center, and their sequence logo now looks like:

      Author response image 3.

      5-prime shuffled

      Author response image 4.

      3-prime shuffled

      Author response image 5.

      random sequences from coding regions

      The classification results of the shuffled 5-prime (donner), 3-prime (acceptor) and random sequences from coding regions (Random CDS) are presented in the Author response table 1 (The accuracy for the aligned results, which is approximately 99%, is not shown here).

      Author response table 1.

      With the positive results from these positive controls (splicing site motifs) validating our methodology, we applied the same model structure to the train and test of potential mutational motifs of CDN sites. All models achieved approximately 50% accuracy in CDN motif analysis, suggesting that the sequence contexts surrounding CDN sites are not significantly different from other coding regions of the genome. This further implies that the recurrence of mutations at CDN sites is more likely driven by selection rather than mutational mechanisms.

      Note that this preliminary analysis may be limited by insufficient training data for CDN sites. Future studies will require larger sample sizes and more sophisticated models to address these limitations.

      (4) To solidify the findings, the results need to be replicated in an independent dataset.

      Figure 7 validates our CDN findings using the GENIE dataset, which primarily consists of targeted sequencing data from various panels. By focusing on the same genomic regions sequenced by GENIE, we observed a 3-5 fold increase in the number of discovered CDNs as sample size increased from approximately 1000 to 9000. Moreover, the majority of CDNs identified in TCGA were confirmed as CDNs in GENIE.

      (5) The key scripts and the list of key results (i.e., CDN sites with i{greater than or equal to}3) need to be shared to enable replication, validation, and further research. So far, only CDN sites with i{greater than or equal to}20 have been shared.

      We have now updated the “Data Availability” section in the main text, the corresponding scripts for key results are available on Gitlab at: https://gitlab.com/ultramicroevo/cdn_v1.

      (6) The versions of data used in this study are not clearly detailed, such as the specific version of gnomAD and the version and date of TCGA data downloaded from the GDC Data Portal.

      The versions of data sources have now been updated in the revised manuscript.

      Recommendations For The Authors:

      (1) L119, states "22.7 million nonsynonymous sites," but Table 1 lists the number as 22,540,623 (22.5 million). This discrepancy needs to be addressed for consistency.<br /> (2) Figure 2B, there is an unexplained drop in the line at i = 6 and 7 (from 83 to 45). Clarification is needed on why this drop occurs.<br /> (3) Figure 3A, for the CNS type, data for recurrence at 8 and 9 are missing. An explanation should be provided for this absence.<br /> (4) L201, the title refers to "100-mers," but L218 mentions "101-mers." This inconsistency needs to be corrected to ensure clarity and accuracy.<br /> (5) Figures 6 and 7 currently lack titles. Titles should be added to these figures to improve readability.

      Thanks. All corrections have been incorporated into the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):<br /> Summary:<br /> The authors propose that cancer-driver mutations can be identified by Cancer Driving Nucleotides (CDNs). CDNs are defined as SNVs that occur frequently in genes. There are many ways to define cancer driver mutations, and the strengths and weaknesses are the reliance on statistics to define them.<br /> Strengths:<br /> There are many well-known approaches and studies that have already identified many canonical driver mutations. A potential strength is that mutation frequencies may be able to identify as yet unrecognized driver mutations. They use a previously developed method to estimate mutation hotspots across the genome (Dig, Sherman et al 2022). This publication has already used cancer sequence data to infer driver mutations based on higher-than-expected mutation frequencies. The advance here is to further illustrate that recurrent mutations (estimated at 3 or more mutations (CDNs) at the same base) are more likely to be the result of selection for a driver mutation (Figure 3). Further analysis indicates that mutation sequence context (Figure 4) or mutation mechanisms (Figure 5) are unlikely to be major causes for recurrent point mutations. Finally, they calculate (Figure 6) that most driver mutations identifiable by the CDN approach could be identified with about 100,000 to one million tumor coding genomes.<br /> Weaknesses:<br /> The manuscript does provide specific examples where recurrent mutations identify known driver mutations but do not identify "new" candidate driver mutations. Driver mutation validation is difficult and at least clinically, frequency (ie observed in multiple other cancer samples) is indeed commonly used to judge if an SNV has driver potential. The method would miss alternative ways to trigger driver alterations (translocations, indels, epigenetic, CNVs). Nevertheless, the value of the manuscript is its quantitative analysis of why mutation frequencies can identify cancer driver mutations.

      Recommendations For The Authors<br /> Whereas the analysis of driver mutations in WES has been extensive, the application of the method to WGS data (ie the noncoding regions) would provide new information.

      We appreciate that Reviewer #2 has suggested the potential application of our method to noncoding regions. Currently, the background mutation model is based on the site level mutations in coding regions, which hinders its direct applications in other mutation types such as CNVs, translocations and indels. We acknowledge that the proportion of patients with driver event involving CNV (73%) is comparable to that of coding point mutations (76%) as reported in the PCAWG analysis (Fig. 2A from Campbell et al., 2020). In future studies, we will attempt to establish a CNV-based background mutation rate model to identify positive selection signals driving tumorigenesis.

      References

      Abascal F, Harvey LMR, Mitchell E, Lawson ARJ, Lensing SV, Ellis P, Russell AJC, Alcantara RE, Baez-Ortega A, Wang Y, et al. 2021. Somatic mutation landscapes at single-molecule resolution. Nature:1–6.

      Alexandrov LB, Kim J, Haradhvala NJ, Huang MN, Tian Ng AW, Wu Y, Boot A, Covington KR, Gordenin DA, Bergstrom EN, et al. 2020. The repertoire of mutational signatures in human cancer. Nature 578:94–101.

      Bailey MH, Tokheim C, Porta-Pardo E, Sengupta S, Bertrand D, Weerasinghe A, Colaprico A, Wendl MC, Kim J, Reardon B, et al. 2018. Comprehensive Characterization of Cancer Driver Genes and Mutations. Cell 173:371-385.e18.

      Baylin SB, Jones PA. 2016. Epigenetic Determinants of Cancer. Cold Spring Harb Perspect Biol 8:a019505.

      Campbell PJ, Getz G, Korbel JO, Stuart JM, Jennings JL, Stein LD, Perry MD, Nahal-Bose HK, Ouellette BFF, Li CH, et al. 2020. Pan-cancer analysis of whole genomes. Nature 578:82–93.

      Drost J, Clevers H. 2018. Organoids in cancer research. Nat Rev Cancer 18:407–418.

      Elliott K, Larsson E. 2021. Non-coding driver mutations in human cancer. Nat Rev Cancer 21:500–509.

      Grzeskowiak CL, Kundu ST, Mo X, Ivanov AA, Zagorodna O, Lu H, Chapple RH, Tsang YH, Moreno D, Mosqueda M, et al. 2018. In vivo screening identifies GATAD2B as a metastasis driver in KRAS-driven lung cancer. Nat Commun 9:2732.

      Hess JM, Bernards A, Kim J, Miller M, Taylor-Weiner A, Haradhvala NJ, Lawrence MS, Getz G. 2019. Passenger Hotspot Mutations in Cancer. Cancer Cell 36:288-301.e14.

      Hodis E, Triglia ET, Kwon JYH, Biancalani T, Zakka LR, Parkar S, Hütter J-C, Buffoni L, Delorey TM, Phillips D, et al. 2022. Stepwise-edited, human melanoma models reveal mutations’ effect on tumor and microenvironment. Science 376:eabi8175.

      Lawrence MS, Stojanov P, Polak P, Kryukov GV, Cibulskis K, Sivachenko A, Carter SL, Stewart C, Mermel CH, Roberts SA, et al. 2013. Mutational heterogeneity in cancer and the search for new cancer-associated genes. Nature 499:214–218.

      Makova KD, Hardison RC. 2015. The effects of chromatin organization on variation in mutation rates in the genome. Nat Rev Genet 16:213–223.

      Michels BE, Mosa MH, Streibl BI, Zhan T, Menche C, Abou-El-Ardat K, Darvishi T, Członka E, Wagner S, Winter J, et al. 2020. Pooled In Vitro and In Vivo CRISPR-Cas9 Screening Identifies Tumor Suppressors in Human Colon Organoids. Cell Stem Cell 26:782-792.e7.

      Ng PK-S, Li J, Jeong KJ, Shao S, Chen H, Tsang YH, Sengupta S, Wang Z, Bhavana VH, Tran R, et al. 2018. Systematic Functional Annotation of Somatic Mutations in Cancer. Cancer Cell 33:450-462.e10.

      Sherman MA, Yaari AU, Priebe O, Dietlein F, Loh P-R, Berger B. 2022. Genome-wide mapping of somatic mutation rates uncovers drivers of cancer. Nat Biotechnol 40:1634–1643.

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews: 

      Reviewer #1 (Public review): 

      Summary:  

      Wang et al. investigate sexual dimorphic changes in the transcriptome of aged humans. This study relies upon analysis of the Genotype-Tissue Expression dataset that includes 54 tissues from human donors. The authors investigate 17,000 transcriptomes from 35 tissues to investigate the effect of age and sex on transcriptomic variation, including the analysis of alternative splicing. Alternative splicing is becoming more appreciated as an influence in the aging process, but how it is affected by sexual dimorphism is still largely unclear. The authors investigated multiple tissues but ended up distilling brain tissue down to four separate regions: decision, hormone, memory, and movement. Building upon prior work, the authors used an analysis method called principal component-based signal-to-variation ratio (pcSVR) to quantify differences between sex or age by considering data dispersion. This method also considers differentially expressed genes and alternative splicing events. 

      Strengths:  

      (1) The authors investigate sexual dimorphism on gene expression and alternative splicing events with age in multiple tissues from a large publicly available data set that allows for reanalysis. 

      (2) Furthermore, the authors take into account the ethnic background of donors. Identification of agingmodulating genes could be useful for the reanalysis of prior data sets. 

      Weaknesses:  

      The models built off of the GTEx dataset should be tested in another data set (ex. Alzheimer's disease) where there are functional changes that can be correlated. Gene-length-dependent transcription decline, which occurs with age and disease, should also be investigated in this data set for potential sexual dimorphism. 

      We appreciate the reviewer’s constructive feedback and acknowledgment of the strengths of our study. The detailed results are included in the ‘Recommendations for the authors’ from the editorial office. Below we summarize our feedback that address the concerns of this reviewer:

      (1) Independent Alzheimer’s disease (AD) datasets:

      We acknowledge the importance of validating our models beyond GTEx to assess their generalizability aging to Alzheimer’s disease. While GTEx provides valuable transcriptomic data across multiple tissues, it lacks direct functional assessments linked to disease states. We have already analyzed RNA-seq data from ROSMAP and GEO in Figure 4, focusing on sex-biased gene expression and splicing changes between aging and AD.  The results showed a male-biased association with Alzheimer’s disease at AS resolution, indicating that the AS changes during aging could contribute more to AD in males than females. We added a highlight to this analysis in the manuscript (Pages 6-7).

      (2) Sexual dimorphism in Gene-Length-Dependent Transcription Decline (GLTD) 

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion to explore gene-length-dependent transcription decline (GLTD), which has been implicated in both aging and disease. As the reviewer suggested, our analysis revealed that GLTD exhibits sex-biased patterns in different tissues, aligning with recent literature on sex-dimorphic transcriptional aging. Our findings also revealed that longer genes with greater transcriptional decline are enriched in AD-related pathways. We have incorporated this new analysis in the ‘Recommendations for the authors’ in Author response image 5-6 and expanded the discussion of the biological relevance. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      In this manuscript, Wang et al analyze ~17,000 transcriptomes from 35 human tissues from the GTEx database and address transcriptomic variations due to age and sex. They identified both gene expression changes as well as alternative splicing events that differ among sexes. Using breakpoint analysis, the authors find sex dimorphic shifts begin with declining sex hormone levels with males being affected more than females. This is an important pan-tissue transcriptomic study exploring age and sex-dependent changes although not the first one. 

      Strengths:  

      (1) The authors use sophisticated modeling and statistics for differential, correlational, and predictive analysis. 

      (2) The authors consider important variables such as genetic background, ethnicity, sampling bias, sample sizes, detected genes, etc. 

      (3) This is likely the first study to evaluate alternative splicing changes with age and sex at a pan-tissue scale. 

      (4) Sex dimorphism with age is an important topic and is thoroughly analyzed in this study.  Weaknesses:  

      (1) The findings have not been independently validated in a separate cohort or through experiments. Only selective splicing factor regulation has been verified in other studies. 

      (2) It seems the authors have not considered PMI or manner of death as a variable in their analysis. 

      (3) The manuscript is very dense and sometimes difficult to follow due to many different types of analyses and correlations. 

      (4) Short-read data can detect and quantify alternative splicing events with only moderate confidence and therefore the generalizability of these findings remains to be experimentally validated. 

      We appreciate the thorough review and thoughtful feedback. We have addressed the reviewer’s concerns and added clarification. The detailed results are included in Recommendations for the authors. Here are the summaries.

      (1) Challenge of independent validation in separate cohorts

      • The GTEx dataset includes the most comprehensive transcriptome resource for studying population-level differences in age and sex across tissues, particularly including large-scale brain samples. This provides a unique opportunity to analyze sex-dimorphic aging and the relevance of age-associated diseases.  Several technical issues, including cell type heterogeneity, postmortem artifacts, as well as sequencing biases, lead to technical challenges in different cohorts.

      • As the reviewer mentioned, we analyzed transcriptomic data from Shen et al. (2024) and compared them with GTEx results (Author response image 2). Limited overlap in differentially expressed genes again highlighted the challenges in cross-dataset validation due to the differences in cell composition and data processing (peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMCs) vs whole blood). 

      • Due to the limited human brain transcriptome data covering different age and sex groups, we found mouse hippocampus datasets from Mass spectrometry (MS), including young and old, as well as female and male groups.  The results validated the expression of splicing factors in brain (Author response image 9). This cross-species consistency supports the robustness of our findings in human brain aging.

      (2) Effects of Postmortem Interval, Manner of Death, and Time of Death

      • We agree that the sample collections could introduce confounding effects. To address this, we calculated the correlations between the confounding factors with Postmortem Interval (PMI), Manner of Death (DTHMNNR), or Time of Death (DTHTIME and DTHSEASON). We observed strong correlations in some surrogate variables in most tissues, indicating that those factors could be well-regressed during our analysis (Recommendations for the authors, Figure S4 and R8). 

      • In addition, we re-evaluated our analyses while incorporating PMI as a covariate in our models. Our results align with our initial findings (Author response image 1), suggesting that age- and sex-dependent transcriptomic changes are not strongly confounded by PMI and confirming that our model has controlled PMI. These results are detailed in ‘Recommendations for the authors’ and included in Figure S4C-E with the description in text, Page 5. 

      (3) Readability of manuscript and flow of analyses

      • In summary, our study first examined global alternative splicing (AS) and gene expression (GE) across all tissues before focusing on specific regions for deeper insights. To improve clarity, we have made the following revisions:

      • Add clearer statements when transitioning between all-tissue and brain-specific analyses (Page 6-7).

      • Modify the subtitle of Results to highlight all-tissue vs. brain analyses (Page 6).

      • These refinements could enhance the manuscript’s structure, making the flow of analysis and conclusions more intuitive for readers.

      (4) Limitations of short-read RNA-seq for splicing analysis

      • Short-read RNA-seq provides only moderate confidence in detecting and quantifying full-length isoforms. However, its higher sequencing depth makes it more suitable for quantifying changes in alternative splicing (AS) events.

      • Our analysis focused on splicing event-level quantification, applying stringent filters and using our GPU-based tool, which showed strong concordance with RT-PCR and other pipelines. Therefore, we also cited and included the updated Paean manuscript that benchmarks its performance in AS analysis.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review): 

      Summary:  

      In this study, Wang et al utilized the available GTEx data to compile a comprehensive analysis that attempt to reveal aging-related sex-dimorphic gene expression as well as alternative splicing changes in humans. 

      The key conclusions based on their analysis are that. 

      (1) extensive sex-dimorphisms during aging with distinct patterns of change in gene expression and alternative splicing (AS), and 

      (2) the male-biased age-associated AS events have a stronger association with Alzheimer's disease, and  (3) the female-biased events are often regulated by several sex-biased splicing factors that may be controlled by estrogen receptors. They further performed break-point analysis and revealed that in males there are two main breakpoints around ages 35 and 50, while in females, there is only one breakpoint at 45. 

      Strengths:  

      This study sets an ambitious goal, leveraging the extensive GTEx dataset to investigate aging-related, sexdimorphic gene expression and alternative splicing changes in humans. The research addresses a significant question, as our understanding of sex-dimorphic gene expression in the context of human aging is still in its early stages. Advancing our knowledge of these molecular changes is vital for identifying therapeutic targets for age-related diseases and extending the human health span. The study is highly comprehensive, and the authors are commendable for their attempted thorough analysis of both gene expression and alternative splicing - an area often overlooked in similar studies. 

      We thank this reviewer for the insightful review and recognition of our study's significance.  We agree with the reviewer on how to examine sex-dimorphic gene expression and alternative splicing in aging by using the GTEx dataset.  This is indeed an essential aspect of developing potential therapeutic targets for agerelated diseases to promote human health span.

      Weaknesses:  

      Due to the inherent noise within the GTEx dataset - which includes numerous variables beyond aging and sex - there are significant technical concerns surrounding this study. Additionally, the lack of crossvalidation with independent, existing data raises questions about whether the observed gene expression changes genuinely reflect those associated with human aging. For instance, the break-point analysis in this study identifies two major breakpoints in males around ages 35 and 50, and one breakpoint in females at age 45; however, these findings contradict a recent multi-omics longitudinal study involving 108 participants aged 25 to 75 years, where breakpoint at 44 and 60 years was observed in both male and females (Shen et al, 2024). These issues cast doubt on the robustness of the study's conclusions. Specific concerns are outlined below: 

      References: 

      Ferreira PG, Muñoz-Aguirre M, Reverter F, Sá Godinho CP, Sousa A, Amadoz A, Sodaei R, Hidalgo MR, Pervouchine D, Carbonell-Caballero J et al (2018) The effects of death and post-mortem cold ischemia on human tissue transcriptomes. Nature Communications 9: 490. 

      Shen X, Wang C, Zhou X, Zhou W, Hornburg D, Wu S, Snyder MP (2024) Nonlinear dynamics of multiomics profiles during human aging. Nature Aging. 

      Wucher V, Sodaei R, Amador R, Irimia M, Guigó R (2023) Day-night and seasonal variation of human gene expression across tissues. PLOS Biology 21: e3001986. 

      (1) The primary method used in this study is linear regression, incorporating age, sex, and age-by-sex interactions as covariates, alongside other confounding factors (such as ethnicity) as unknown variables. However, the analysis overlooks two critical known variables in the GTEx dataset: time of death (TOD) and postmortem interval (PMI). Both TOD and PMI are recorded for each sample and account for substantial variance in gene expression profiles. A recent study by Wucher et al.(Wucher et al, 2023) demonstrated the powerful impact of TOD on gene expression by using it to reconstruct human circadian and even circannual datasets. Similarly, Ferreira et al. (Ferreira et al, 2018) highlighted PMI's influence on gene expression patterns. Without properly adjusting for these two variables, confidence in the study's conclusions remains limited at best. 

      We appreciate the reviewer for raising this important point regarding the impact of post-mortem interval (PMI) and time of death (TOD) on gene expression, including the death seasons (DTHSEASON) and daytime (DTHTIME). To address this point, we carefully evaluated whether our linear model controlled for these factors as potential confounders. 

      Our results showed that PMI and TOD significantly correlated with the estimated covariates in most tissues, suggesting that their effects could be effectively regressed out using our model (Figure S4).  As the reviewers and editors suggested, we have now included this correlation analysis in the updated Figure S4C-E and the text in the Results section, citing relevant literature [1,2] (Page 5). 

      Author response image 1.

      The results of differential gene expression analysis with vs without the inclusion of PMI correction as a known covariate. The scatter plots show the correlations of significance levels (pvalues, left panel) and effect sizes (coefficients, right panel) of sex (A) and age (B). Whole-blood tissue is used as an example.

       

      In addition, we did the differential analysis that incorporated PMI as a covariate in the regression models and re-evaluated the age- and sex-related transcriptomic changes. Using WholeBlood gene expression as an example, our revised analysis shows that the inclusion of PMI in the covariates has minimal impact on the significance levels and effects of sex and age (i.e., p-values and coefficients, respectively), indicating that our findings are robust using confounding factors (Author response image 1). 

      (2) To demonstrate that their analysis is robust and that the covariates TOD and PMI are otherwise negligible - the authors should cross-validate their findings with independent datasets to confirm that the identified gene expression changes are reproducible for some tissues. For instance, the recent study by Shen et al. (Shen et al., 2024) in Nature Aging offers an excellent dataset for cross-validation, particularly for blood samples. Comparing the GTEx-derived results with this longitudinal transcriptome dataset would enable verification of gene expression changes at both the individual gene and pathway levels. Without such validation, confidence in the study's conclusions remains limited. 

      We thank the reviewer for the insightful suggestion regarding cross-validation with independent datasets. We understand that validating findings across datasets is crucial for ensuring robustness. As the reviewers suggested, we see whether there are some shared findings in the GTEx data with the study by Shen et al. (2024) in Nature Aging. However, after performing comparisons with our GTEx results in whole blood tissue, we found that the overlaps of differentially expressed genes are limited (Fig. 3). In our results, we found a large proportion of age-associated genes in the GTEx data, whereas just 54 genes are age-associated from Shen et al.’s PBMC data. 3 in 7 genes are differentially expressed in both datasets (Fig. 3A). Additionally, we performed the functional enrichment analysis on the GTEx-specific age-associated genes.

      We observed a strong enrichment in the biological pathways related to neutrophil functions and innate immune responses, which are specific to the cell compositions in whole blood rather than PBMC (Fig. 3B).

      Author response image 2.

      The comparison between the gene expression of whole blood tissue from GTEx and PBMCs from Shen et al. (A) The bar plot shows the number of age (left panel) or sex-associated  (right panel) genes in the two datasets. The grey bars highlight the proportion of overlapped genes in both datasets. (B) The top 10 significantly enriched biological processes in the GTEx-specific age-associated genes. The color bar shows the number of age-associated genes in specific pathways.

      These discrepancies highlighted the crucial factors in cross-dataset comparison:

      • Cell compositions: GTEx used whole blood, which contains all blood components, including neutrophils and erythrocytes, whereas PBMCs contain lymphocytes and monocytes. Under the influence of granulocytes and red blood cells in whole blood, the gene expression profiles between these two datasets are different.

      • Biological functions: Whole blood includes both innate and adaptive immune components; thus, aging-related gene expression changes in whole blood may include a broader systemic response than those in PBMCs. This difference in biological context contributes to the observed variation in the differentially expressed genes, as demonstrated by our functional enrichment analysis (Fig. 3B). 

      • Sequencing biases and data processing: The two datasets were generated using different RNAseq processing pipelines, including distinct normalization, batch correction, and quantification methodologies. These technical differences may introduce systematic variations that complicate direct cross-validation.

      Due to these fundamental problems, a direct one-to-one validation between the two datasets is challenging. We understand the importance of independent dataset validation and appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion. However, future studies could be performed more precisely if comparable whole-blood-based datasets are available. In addition, GTEx data provides nearly thousands of samples in whole blood, which is a largescale, comprehensive, and clinically relevant dataset for studying aging-related changes, particularly in innate immunity and inflammation, which are not well captured in PBMCs.

      (3) As a demonstration of the lack of such validation, in the Shen et al. study (Shen et al., 2024), breakpoints at 44 and 60 years were observed in both males and females, while this study identifies two major breakpoints in males around ages 35 and 50, and one breakpoint in females at age 45. What caused this discrepancy? 

      We thank the reviewer and the editors for both coming up with the non-linear multi-omic aging patterns observed by Shen et al.  They observed two prominent crests around the ages of 45 and 60 from omics data.

      Similarly, we also identified two breakpoints in our analysis, with some differences in specific age breakpoints. These could be the result of sample preparation methods and breakpoint definition. These responses are also included in the editor’s recommendations.

      Definition of breakpoints vs crests:

      • Crests represent age-related molecular changes at each time point across the human lifespan. They indicate the number of molecules that are differentially expressed during aging (q < 0.05), without considering individual expression levels.

      • Our breakpoints, in contrast, are identified after filtering the chronological trends using the Autoregressive Integrated Moving Average (ARIMA) model. We calculated the rate of change at each age point using the smooth approach and sliding windows. Breakpoints are defined as local maxima where the distance to the nearest minimum, relative to the global maximum. We indeed found some local wide peaks around 60 in some tissues, shown in Figure S10, however, we excluded these due to our strict cutoffs to remove noise.

      Differences and similarities between sequenced tissues: 

      • Whole-blood vs PBMC: In the GTEx RNA-seq data used in our study, whole blood samples from donors were sequenced, whereas their study used PBMCs. Whole blood contains all blood components, including red blood cells, platelets, granulocytes (e.g., neutrophils), lymphocytes, and monocytes, while PBMCs represent a subset of white blood cells, primarily consisting of lymphocytes (T cells, B cells, NK cells) and monocytes, excluding granulocytes and erythrocytes. As we mentioned in the previous responses, the gene expression changes observed in whole blood capture the contributions of neutrophils and other granulocytes, which are neglected in the PBMC profile (also shown in Figure S11C). 

      • For the shared tissues in two studies – skin, we looked at the non-linear changes during aging and found the same two breakpoints: 43 and 58. 

      Novelties in our study:

      • Whole blood can serve as a readily accessible resource for testing age-related disease biomarkers without cell separation, making it more practical for clinical applications.

      • Our analysis was performed on females and males, respectively. The main object of our analysis is to compare the differences in aging rates between sexes. Our results reveal clear sex-specific differences across multiple human tissues. Therefore, the identified breakpoints may differ when sex effects are not taken into account, highlighting the specificity of our analysis. 

      • Additionally, our breakpoints are integrated across multiple tissues. Our results showed that there is a large diversity of aging patterns in different tissues.

      As the reviewers and editors suggested, we have added the following statements to clarify this distinction in the Discussion section: ‘Our analysis observed the non-linear aging patterns with two breakpoints, which is consistent with recent findings, with differences in specific age points due to sex differences as well as tissue diversities 3.’ (Page 14), and ‘These breakpoints could represent key junctures in the aging process that align with the non-linear patterns of aging and disease progression.’ (Page 15)

      (4) Although the alternative splicing analysis is intriguing, the authors did not differentiate between splicing events that alter the protein-coding sequence and those that do not. Many splicing changes occurring in the 5' UTR and 3' UTR regions do not impact protein coding, so it is essential to filter these out and focus specifically on alternative splicing events that can modify protein-coding sequences. 

      The reviewer raises an important point. In our study, we included the AS events in protein-coding genes to gain a comprehensive understanding of sex-biased age-associated splicing. As the reviewer suggested, focusing on coding-sequence-altering events is particularly relevant to protein function. To address this, we performed an additional analysis to specifically annotate sBASEs occurring within the coding sequence (defeined as CDS-altering sBASEs) and reanalyzed their functional pathways and AD-associations (Author response image 3).  

      Our analysis revealed that most of the sBASEs are relevant to protein-coding sequences (CDS) across multiple tissues (Author response image 3A).  We then confirmed our findings using CDS-altering sBASEs. We found that those sBASEs in brain regions were significantly enriched in pathways related to amyloid-beta formation and actin filament organization (Author response image 3B). Notably, male-biased sBASEs in decision-related brain regions were particularly associated with dendrite development and regulation of cell morphogenesis, highlighting the sex-specific roles of sBASEs in brain functions. Additionally, we performed a random forest classification using only CDS-altering sBASEs in AD datasets (Author response image 3C-D), again confirming the malebiased association between aging and AD.

      Overall, we found that most of the identified sBASEs could modify protein-coding sequences, and our main conclusions remain consistent even after filtering out non-coding events. 

      Nevertheless, in addition to AS events that impact protein sequences, alternative splicing in untranslated regions (UTRs) also plays a critical regulatory role. Splicing events in the 5′ UTR can influence translation efficiency by modifying upstream open reading frames (uORFs) or RNA secondary structures, while splicing in the 3′UTR can affect mRNA stability, localization, and translation by altering microRNA binding sites and RNA-binding protein interactions. Given these functional implications, we believe that UTR-targeted AS events should also be considered to supplement the understanding of post-transcriptional gene regulation in future research.

      Author response image 3.

      The distribution and functional relevance of sBASEs with coding effects. (A) The number of sBASEs and CDS-altering sBASEs across multiple tissues. The deeper bars show the number of sBASEs whose alternative splice sites are located at protein-coding regions. (B) GO biological pathways in each sex and brain region. Heatmap shows the sex-specific pathways that are significantly enriched by CDS-altering sBASEs in more than 2 brain regions and sex. (C) Correlation between ADassociated and age-associated AS changes across the CDS-altering sBASEs that alter protein-coding sequences in females and males. (D) Performances of sex-stratified models predicted by CDS-altering sBASEs in 100 iterations using the random forest approach

      (5) One of the study's main conclusions - that "male-biased age-associated AS events have a stronger association with Alzheimer's disease" - is not supported by the data presented in Figure 4A, which shows an association with "regulation of amyloid precursor formation" only in female, not male, alternative splicing genes. Additionally, the gene ontology term "Alzheimer's disease" is absent from the unbiased GO analysis in Figure S6. These discrepancies suggest that the focus on Alzheimer's disease may reflect selective data interpretation rather than results driven by an unbiased analysis. 

      We thank the reviewer for this point. In our functional analysis, we identified distinct biological processes enriched in female- and male-biased AS genes, such as the regulation of amyloid precursor formation in females and structural constituents of the cytoskeleton in males. However, Alzheimer’s disease (AD) is a complex neurodegenerative disorder with multiple pathological mechanisms beyond amyloid-beta (Aβ) formation, many of which are strongly age-related in both sexes. This complexity motivates us to explore novel relationships between splicing and AD in distinct sexes.

      Although Figure 4A shows the enrichment of “regulation of amyloid precursor formation” in female-biased AS events, this does not contradict the broader enrichment of AD-related processes in male-biased AS events. Our disease ontology analysis supports this finding, as male-biased age-associated AS events are enriched in neurodegenerative diseases, including cognitive disorders. Additionally, we considered not only individual GO terms but also the disease-associated transcriptomic signatures from AD-related datasets, which collectively indicate a stronger association in males. 

      Regarding Figure S6 mentioned by the reviewer, the GO term “Alzheimer’s disease” is not explicitly listed in the heatmap because we filtered the pathways that are consistently enriched in multiple tissues. As noted in the figure legend, we only displayed sex-specific GO terms that were significant in at least 15 tissues. Then, since the brain is highly affected by age-related processes and neurological conditions show sex differences, the sex-biased AS events could help explain differential susceptibility to age-related cognitive decline and neurodegeneration. That’s why we chose the brain data for detailed analysis.

      To improve clarity, we have revised the text to describe the purpose of our analysis in brain rather than other tissues (Page 6-7). We appreciate the reviewer’s feedback, and we will consider additional analyses to further explore the sex-biased AS as well as disease risk in other tissues.

      (6) The experimental data presented in Figures 5E - I merely demonstrate that estrogen receptor regulates the expression of two splicing factors, SRSF1 and SRSF7, in an estradiol-dependent manner. However, this finding does not support the notion that this regulation actually contributes to sex-dimorphic alternative splicing changes during human aging. Notably, the authors do not provide evidence that SRSF1 and SRSF7 expression changes actually occur in a sex-dependent manner with human aging (in a manner similar to TIA1). As such, this experimental dataset is disconnected from the main focus of the study and does not substantiate the conclusions on sex-dimorphic splicing during human aging. The authors performed RNAseq in wild-type and ER mutant cells, and they should perform a comprehensive analysis of ER-dependent alternative splicing and compare the results with the GTEx data. It should be straightforward. 

      Thanks for the reviewer’s feedback. The main purpose of the analyses in Figures 5E-I was to explore which factors affect the sex-biased expression of splicing factors during aging and substantially regulate alternative splicing (AS). To address the reviewer’s concerns, we have included additional analysis and explained the challenge of linking estrogen receptor (ER)-regulated splicing factors to sex-dimorphic AS changes during human aging in specific human cell types. 

      • As suggested by the reviewer, we first examined the expression changes of SRSF1 and SRSF7 during aging in males and females, like TIA1 in decision-related brain regions (Fig. 5I).

      • Secondly, the regulation is based on a highly complex regulatory network involving multiple splicing factors and cell heterogeneity. Due to these complexities, we did not overlap ER-dependent AS changes with sBASEs from GTEx datasets directly. As far as the reviewer is concerned, we supplemented the AS analysis in the GSE89888 dataset (Fig. 5H) and identified the estrogenregulated AS events mediated by ESR1. We found that ~6% (26/396) of female-specific ageassociated AS events were regulated by ESR1, of which 6 sBASEs can be regulated by femalebiased splicing factors. The low overlaps could be represented by the limited coverage of different RNA-seq datasets and cell types used across these analyses. Notably, the results indicated that only a fraction of AS could be directly accounted for by estrogen via ESR1, suggesting the complexity of transcriptional and splicing regulatory networks during aging. 

      • Meanwhile, we downloaded independent experimental datasets to discover the regulation by our candidate splicing factors. Due to SRSF1 is identified as a potential regulator of sex-biased splicing, we analyzed RNA-seq data with SRSF1 knock-down (KD) glioblastoma cell lines (U87MG and U251), a type of brain cancer formed from astrocytes that support nerve cells 4.  As a result, we indeed found that some sBASEs are regulated by SRSF1 during aging through this experiment using brain cell lines (Author response image 4). Together, these results suggested that some of the SF-RNA regulatory relationships can be observed in another cellular system, further supporting our findings. 

      Due to the limitations of cell-based models and the complexity in the splicing regulatory network, it is challenging to directly validate aging regulation, particularly between different sexes, based on ER treatments in vivo. However, our findings still provide valuable mechanistic insights into ER-regulated splicing factors, implying their potential role in sex-biased aging.

      Author response image 4.

      SRSF1 regulations on specific sBASEs using SRSF1 knock-down RNA-seq data in GBM cells. Three examples are shown to be regulated during aging with significant changes between SRSF1 KD vs control in U251 and U87MG cell lines. The splicing diagrams are shown below.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      The authors found that alternative splicing was affected by both sex and age across many tissues, with gene expression differences affected by both parameters only present in some tissues. This trend was consistent when the effects of sex chromosomes were subtracted from the analysis. The effect of aging on differential gene expression and alternative splicing was more prevalent in male than female samples. For analysis purposes, young subjects were deemed to be anyone under 40, and old subjects were over 60 years old. The authors then investigated if specific genes or alternative splicing events were responsible for these effects. Some candidate genes or splicing events were identified but there was little overlap between tissues, suggesting no universal gene or event as a driver of aging. Surrogate variables like the ethnic backgrounds of donors were also investigated. Ultimately the authors found that alternative splicing events showed a stronger sexual dimorphic effect with age than did differential gene expression and that at least for the brain, alternative splicing changes showed a bias for Alzheimer's disease in male samples. This was highlighted by examples of exon skipping in SCL43A2 and FAM107A in males that were associated respectively with plaques and tangles. 

      The authors go on to identify sexual dimorphic differences in splicing factors in particular brain regions during age. Finally, the authors performed analysis for aging-modulated genes, identifying nearly 1000 across the tissues, nearly 70% of which are sex-specific. Their work suggests that further analysis of these aging-modulated genes could be differentially modulating the transcriptome based on sex. The work is novel and interesting, especially investigating sexual dimorphism in alternative splicing. However, the work is still preliminary, and these assumptions need to be applied to other data sets beyond GTEx for validation as well as some other phenomena that need to be considered. I recommend major revisions to address the points below. 

      (1) At the beginning of the results section, the authors state that the brain is stratified into four functional regions. It would be useful to explicitly state those four regions in the text at that point. 

      We agree that specifying these regions early in the text will improve clarity and provide the reader with a clear understanding of the analysis. As the reviewer’s suggestion, we revised the Results section (Page 3) to explicitly state the four functional brain regions as follows: ‘Due to data sparseness, the brain tissues were recombined into four functional regions (table S1), including hormone- or emotion-related region, movement-related region, memory-related region, and decision-related region (See Methods).’. This ensures that the regions are clearly defined before the subsequent analysis is presented. 

      (2) The manuscript becomes a bit confusing when the authors shift from all the tissues as a whole specifically to the brain and then back to the larger tissue set to make assumptions. This can be a bit confusing and should be better delineated.

      We thank the reviewer and editor for the feedback regarding the transitions between the analysis of all tissues and the brain-specific analysis. In our study, we first conducted a broad analysis of alternative splicing (AS) and gene expression (GE) across all tissues. For the AS analyses, we did sBASEs analysis in all tissues and then focused on specific tissue (i.e., brain) whose splicing changes are functionally enriched with age-related diseases.  For the GE analyses, we also analyzed the aging rate across tissues and identified the tissue-specific/shared patterns. 

      We agree that the shifts of the tissues for AS and GE may cause some confusion, and have made the following revisions to delineate why we focused on different tissues for distinct analyses:

      • We have added clear statements to better delineate when we shift focus from the analysis of all tissues to the region-specific analysis and vice versa. For instance, in the Results section (Page 67), we include a transitional phrase: ‘Having established patterns across all tissues, we now turn to a more focused analysis to investigate tissue-specific alternative splicing changes.’

      • To improve the overall structure, we have reorganized the Results section, adding distinct subheadings for the analysis of all tissues and the brain (Page 6), which should make the transition between these sections smoother and more intuitive for the reader.

      We believe that these revisions will make the manuscript’s structure clearer and allow the reader to better follow the flow of the analysis and the subsequent conclusions.

      (3) Gene-length-dependent transcription decline (GLTD) is another phenomenon that occurs with aging and is known to be associated with Alzheimer's disease [PMID38519330]. The authors should make some statement if this is present in their dataset and if any sexual dimorphism in tissues is present. 

      We thank the editors and reviewers for bringing up the possible connection of gene-length-dependent transcription decline (GLTD), which was reported to be associated with both aging and Alzheimer’s disease (AD). We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion and have addressed whether GLTD is present in our dataset and whether any sex differences are observed in this context.

      We evaluated GLTD using the correlation between gene length with age-associated changes (i.e., the coefficients of the ‘age’ term in the linear regression model) in GTEx data. We did observe strong evidence of GLTD, particularly in the brain, heart, muscle, pancreas, spleen, skin, muscle, etc (Author response image 5A). In brain, we performed the functional enrichment analysis on the genes with Foldchange > 2 and length > 10<sup>5</sup> bp (Author response image 5B). We found that these extremely long genes are significantly relevant to synapse and neuron functions. These findings align with previous studies showing that GLTD can occur with aging in the tissues that are relevant to Alzheimer’s disease, cardiovascular diseases, and common failures of metabolism (e.g., diabetes) [5,6]. Additionally, it was not a ubiquitous phenomenon across all tissues. The correlations could be positive in tissues like adipose and artery.  These findings suggested the GLTD could be varied and tissuespecific in its manifestation during aging. 

      Author response image 5.

      (A) The correlation between gene length and age-associated changes across GTEx tissues in human samples. The correlation tests are evaluated using Spearman’s approach. The color bar indicates the -log10 transformed p-values in the correlation test. (B) The results of GO enrichment analysis using the genes with Foldchange > 2 and length > 10<sup>5</sup> bp. The parent terms calculated by ‘rrvgo’ with a similarity threshold of 0.9 are shown.

      Regarding sexual dimorphism, we conducted this analysis in females and males, respectively (Author response image 6). We found GLTD exists in both females and males in most tissues, such as brain, whole blood, muscle, etc, consistent with the previous results without considering the sex groups. Interestingly, we observed sexbiased patterns in certain tissues. In particular, the left ventricle, pancreas, and hippocampus showed notable male-biased patterns in the degree of transcriptional decline with gene length, whereas skin, liver, small intestine, and esophagus showed that in females. These findings suggest that GLTD could be relevant to aging and age-related diseases; the levels of expression and sexual dimorphism may vary depending on the tissue type. We hope this clarification addresses the reviewer’s concern and provides a more comprehensive understanding of the GLTD and sex differences observed in our dataset. 

      Author response image 6.

      The correlation between gene length and age-associated changes across tissues in females and males, respectively. The correlation tests are evaluated using the Spearman’s approach. The red dots indicate the significant correlations in females, while the navy dots show those in males.

      (4) Because the majority of this work has been performed in the GTEx dataset, applying this analysis to another publicly available dataset would be useful validation. For instance, the authors have interesting findings in the brain and correlations to Alzheimer's disease. Analysis of an existing RNAseq dataset from Alzheimer's disease patients and controls (with functional outcomes) would provide more evidence beyond the preliminary findings from GTEx. 

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion on the validation of our findings by applying our analysis to independent RNA-seq datasets from Alzheimer’s disease patients. 

      • We have used two Alzheimer’s disease datasets, GEO and ROSMAP, to investigate the correlation between aging and Alzheimer’s disease (AD) and included these analyses in our study (Fig. 4B-C and Figure S8C).

      • In the Results section (Page 7), we have presented the results of this validation, where we identified correlations between sex-biased aging-related splicing changes and AD-related changes. These findings support the conclusions from the GTEx dataset and further strengthen the relevance of our results to AD.

      As suggested, we have updated the manuscript to more explicitly highlight this validation in the Discussion section (Page 12), noting: ‘We further validated our findings using Alzheimer’s disease dataset, ROSMAP, where we observed consistent correlations between aging-related splicing changes and Alzheimer’s disease-related changes, providing additional evidence for the robustness of our results.’ 

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      (1) In the text (Introduction and Discussion), the authors mention analyzing 54 tissues, the abstract states 35 tissues, Table S1 lists 48, and Figure 2A-B shows 33. Could the authors please clarify exactly how many tissues they used? I am also confused by the sample numbers in Table S1. For example: for adiposesubcutaneous tissue, the total number of females is listed as 218 but the sum of young and old females is only 110. Does this mean some samples were excluded? What is the exclusion criterion? 

      We thank the reviewers and editors for pointing out the discrepancies regarding the number of tissues analyzed and the sample numbers in Table S1. We appreciate the opportunity to clarify these points:

      Number of tissues analyzed:

      • We downloaded and analyzed 17,382 samples in 54 tissues from GTEx in total (31 tissues and 13 brain regions), as mentioned in the Results, Methods, and Discussion sections. Table S1 lists 48 tissues (31 tissues, 13 brain regions, and 4 merged brain regions), which include a refined classification of the tissues we analyzed, accounting for the variations in brain region categorization in the dataset.

      • The discrepancy also arises from the different sample size cutoffs in specific analyses. For pcSVR analysis (Figure 2A-B), we did the subsampling for the permutation analysis for certain key findings, so we filtered a subset of 33 tissues (29 tissues and 4 merged brain regions), which included at least 3 samples in each age group in females or males. 

      • To resolve this, we have clarified the total number of tissues analyzed and aligned the numbers across the manuscript. In the revised manuscript, we now explicitly state in both the Abstract and Methods sections that 54 tissues were analyzed in the context of this study. We added a note in Methods to clarify that 35 tissues are 31 tissues and 4 merged brain regions (Page 16). In Figure 2A-B, we clarified that the 33 tissues are filtered due to the usage in this analysis (Page 17).

      Sample numbers in Table S1:

      • Regarding the sample sizes of age groups, the discrepancy occurred due to the classification of the age groups. We classify the samples into three: Young, Middle, and Old, as mentioned in the Results section (Page 4). 

      • Additionally, we excluded the sample sizes in 13 single brain regions. We aligned the total tissue number to 35 with our texts.

      We hope this resolves the confusion regarding the number of tissues and the sample sizes used in the analysis. These clarifications have been incorporated into the revised manuscript to ensure consistency.

      (2) Was post-mortem interval (PMI) or manner of death considered in the model? For example, traumatic death may have major consequences on gene expression. Similarly, a few tissues have low sample numbers, for example, kidney cortex and brain. The pooling of brain samples is explained and the kidney cortex is excluded, so why is it listed in Table S1? 

      Thank you for raising this important point regarding the potential impact of post-mortem interval (PMI) and manner of death (DTHMNNR) on gene expression. We carefully considered both factors as potential confounders in our analysis. 

      Specifically, to evaluate their impacts, we calculated the correlations between the coefficients of PMI or manner of death, with the confounding factors. Our results showed that PMI and DTHMNNR are significantly correlated with the covariates in most tissues, suggesting that their effects could be effectively regressed in our model (Figure S4). As we have mentioned in Figure S4 and Author response image 1, we conducted a differential analysis that incorporated PMI as a covariate in the regression models and re-evaluated the age- and sex-related transcriptomic changes to address this concern. The high correlations showed the minor effect size of PMI when including the covariates in the model. As suggested by the reviewers and editors, we have now included this correlation analysis in Figure S4C-E and updated the text in the results section (Page 5).

      Additionally, as the responses above, Table S1 provides the general sample sizes of all GTEx tissues without filtering. We have modified the table to include a total of 35 tissues, including 31 non-brain tissues and 4 brain regions.

      (3) It might be important to show a simple visual of cohort details such as age ranges, sexes, ethnicities, PMIs, etc. 

      To address this, we added summary figures to illustrate the distributions of key demographic variables, including age, sex, BMI, ethnicity, post-mortem intervals (PMIs), and manner of death (DTHMNNR) (Author response image 7 and Author response image 8). This will provide readers with a clearer overview of the dataset composition and potential covariates affecting the analysis. 

      Author response image 7.

      Age (left panel), BMI (Body Mass Index) (middle panel), and PMI (Post-Mortem Interval) (right panel) distribution in GTEx v8 cohort.

      Author response image 8.

      Sex (left panel), ethnicity (middle panel), and manner of death (DTHMNNR) (right panel) distribution in GTEx v8 cohort.

      (4) Since this study is highly correlative, it is impossible to determine if the findings hold true without an independent cohort validation or experimental validation. They used the ROSMAP cohort for AD samples, and some splicing factors regulation but the generalizability to the age and sex effects have not been independently tested.

      The reviewer raises an important point regarding the independent validation of sex- and age-associated splicing changes associated with AD. We used GTEx primarily because it includes approximately 17,000 RNA-seq samples across multiple human tissues, making it the most comprehensive public resource for studying population-level differences in age and sex. In particular, its large-scale brain samples provide a unique opportunity to analyze transcriptomic changes in sex-dimorphic aging.

      We understand the reviewer’s concern that our findings are mainly supported by correlative evidence, which could be affected by dataset-specific biases. However, there are several technical issues in crossvalidation with transcriptomes across different datasets, including limited comparability due to cell type heterogeneity, postmortem artifacts, and sequencing biases.

      Specifically, GTEx data is bulk RNA-seq that does not capture cell-type-specific transcriptomic changes. Given the cellular complexity of the brain and other tissues, observed differences in gene expression and splicing may be influenced by shifts in cellular composition rather than intrinsic transcriptional regulation. For example, we compared our results from GTEx whole blood with the analysis using an external dataset from Peripheral Blood Mononuclear Cells (PBMCs) provided by Shen et al. (2024) [3] (Author response image 2).  We observed limited overlap in differentially expressed genes between these datasets (probably because the whole blood contains diverse immune cell populations), highlighting the challenges in cross-dataset validation due to differences in tissue composition and sample processing.

      Therefore, we applied surrogate variable analysis (SVA) to minimize technical and biological confounders. This approach helped reduce biases from genetic background to hidden batch effects, including postmortem artifacts, sequencing biases (Figure S4), and other covariates. This approach could help us identify whether sex-biased splicing events are biologically meaningful rather than technical artifacts.  

      In addition, to address the reviewer’s concern on the splicing factor regulation, we managed to find a dataset in decision-related brain regions. Due to the limitation of human brain data covering different age and sex groups, we used mouse hippocampus datasets, including young and old, as well as female and male groups [7].  The analysis of protein levels from MS data identified sex-biased age-associated splicing factors, including Srsf1 and Srsf7.  We found that the changes are consistent with the findings from GTEx (Author response image 9), aligning with our sex-biased splicing factor expression during aging in the same region of the human brain. This cross-species consistency supports the robustness of our findings in human brain aging.

      Author response image 9.

      Protein levels of some male-specific splicing factors in human hippocampus quantified using MS data. The Y-axis shows the protein intensity. Different facets mean different sample batch sets. The yellow boxes indicate the protein levels in the young group, while the brown boxes indicate those in the old group.

      In summary, despite the inherent limitations of RNA-seq studies in sex- and age-related transcriptomics, we have made our best efforts to address these concerns through comparisons with external datasets, statistical corrections, and validation using proteomic data. We appreciate the reviewer’s feedback and include additional discussion on these points (Page 13). 

      (5) Are AS predictions from short-read data accurate enough to make the predictions the authors report? 

      The reviewer is correct that the short-read sequencing has inherent limitations in reconstructing full-length isoforms.  However, the higher sequencing depth for short reads makes it a better choice in quantifying the relative change of each AS event across different conditions.  As a result, short-read data are extensively used in the splicing field to quantitatively measure the AS changes.  For this reason, we focused on the levels of alternative splicing events, rather than the quantification of full-length isoforms.  We used a series of stringent filters in our analyses to increase the reliability of our results.

      Specifically, we filtered the read counts of the junction read counts (JC) of most differential AS events that were higher than 10, as mentioned in the Methods section. Also, we used our GPU-based gene expression quantification tool, Paean, which performed better in cross-validation with quantitative RT-PCR results. The results of Paean are consistent with other pipelines. We cited an updated version of Paean that included the comparison with other tools in analyzing AS for consistency.  The manuscript on the new Paean version is being reviewed in another journal, and we included the PDF of that manuscript (Fig. 3 in the Paean manuscript) in the revised documents. 

      (6) Along the same lines, the finding that male age-related AS events are linked to Alzheimer's disease somewhat contradicts epidemiological studies that show that even after adjusting for age, women still have a greater risk of developing Alzheimer's than men. The authors show a significant overlap with AD GE events in females but don't explain the discrepancy. 

      We appreciate the editor’s comment regarding these discrepancies with the epidemiological studies. Previous studies suggested that the disease manifestations of Alzheimer’s Disease (AD) showed sex differences in AD phenotypes, including cognitive decline and brain atrophy [8].  The analyses on the sex/age effect of AD are indeed pretty complex, depending on the molecular criteria (GE or AS vs epidemiological data) in distinct studies, probably due to the difficulty in capturing how environmental exposures interact with biological pathways.  We hope to bring up three related points regarding this concern, which were also discussed in the revised manuscript. 

      • As we have mentioned in the Discussion section, an early study investigated the relationship between age, sex, and cognitive function in a large cohort of 17,127 UK Biobank participants [9]. Their study highlighted more apparent age-related changes in cognitive function among men, suggesting a potential vulnerability of men to cognitive decline with age.  Their main conclusion is consistent with our findings. 

      • While men and women can both suffer from Alzheimer's disease, women are more likely to be diagnosed, possibly due to longer lifespans and potential differences in brain structure or other factors. Although women exhibit a higher overall risk of AD, they may also have distinct molecular compensatory mechanisms that influence disease progression. 

      • To avoid the age effect, in our AD datasets, including ROSMAP, we filtered the samples over 90 years old to match the number of both sexes and the age distribution between the AD and control groups. Our analysis avoided the age biases in comparing AD and control, suggesting the crucial roles of sBASEs in AD during male aging.

      Moreover, for gene expression (GE), we showed distinct patterns of AD-related genes in females with AS. These two molecular processes do not necessarily have the same functional impact. AS changes may precede or contribute to disease onset in different ways compared to GE alterations. Our study came up with the underlying mechanisms linking cognitive disorders and alternative splicing (AS) at a higher molecular resolution.   

      (7) Could the authors explain which sBASE subset they used for their random forest prediction model and what was the rationale? 

      We are sorry for missing the details in selecting sBASEs (sex-biased age-associated splicing events) for the random forest prediction model. We specifically used sBASEs that exhibited specific sex-biased changes in splicing associated with aging. This subset of sBASEs was chosen in terms of those that could also be detected in the ROSMAP AD dataset due to different sequencing depths or technical biases across datasets. These sBASEs were further input to a prediction model with the feature selection algorithm RFE, and then evaluated their contributions. In the revised manuscript, we added the details of this selection in the Methods (Page 7).

      (8) The breakpoint analysis is particularly interesting. Can this be speculated to correlate with the recent non-linear multi-omic aging patterns observed by Shen et al in Nature Aging? 

      Thank you for highlighting the interesting aspects of our breakpoint analysis and suggesting its potential correlation with the non-linear aging patterns observed by Shen et al. 

      Shen et al. observed two prominent crests around the ages of 45 and 60 using omics data. Similarly, we also identified the non-linear aging patterns with two breakpoints in our analysis. However, there are some notable differences in specific breakpoints between these two studies, resulting from the breakpoint definition, as well as the sample preparations. According to the response in Author response image 2, the differences come from the following aspects:

      The definition of breakpoints vs crests:

      • Crests represent age-related molecular changes at each time point across the human lifespan. They indicate the number of molecules that are differentially expressed during aging (q < 0.05), without considering individual expression levels.

      • Our breakpoints, in contrast, are identified after filtering the chronological trends based on the expression levels and calculating the rate of change at each age point using sliding windows. Breakpoints are defined as local maxima where the distance to the nearest minimum, relative to the global maximum, exceeds 10%. We indeed found some local wide peaks around 60 in some tissues, shown in Figure S10, however, we excluded these due to our strict cutoffs.

      The sequenced biosamples: 

      • Whole-blood vs Peripheral Blood Mononuclear Cells (PBMC): As mentioned in previous responses, in GTEx, whole blood samples from donors were sequenced, whereas their study used PBMCs. Whole blood contains all blood components, including red blood cells, platelets, granulocytes (e.g., neutrophils), lymphocytes, and monocytes, while PBMCs only represent a subset of white blood cells, primarily consisting of lymphocytes (T cells, B cells, NK cells) and monocytes, excluding granulocytes and erythrocytes. Gene expression changes observed in whole blood capture the contributions from neutrophils and other granulocytes, which are absent in PBMC analyses (as shown in Figure S11C and Author response image 2). Additionally, whole blood can serve as a readily accessible biomarker source for testing age-related diseases without the need for cell separation, making it a more practical option for clinical applications.

      • For both studies, we share a tissue, which is skin, we looked at the non-linear changes during aging and found the same two breakpoints: 43 and 58. 

      Sex-specific analysis in females and males:

      • The main object of our analysis is to compare the differences in aging rates between sexes. Notably, the identified breakpoints may differ when sex effects are not taken into account, highlighting the importance of analyzing males and females separately.

      We have added the following statements to further clarify this connection: ‘Our analysis observed the nonlinear aging patterns with two breakpoints, which is consistent with recent findings (Nature Aging, 2024), with differences in specific age points due to the sex differences as well as tissue diversities.’ (Page 14), and ‘These breakpoints could represent key junctures in the aging process that align with the non-linear patterns of aging and disease progression.’ (Page 15)

      (9) Minor - the authors should refer to figures in the Discussion. They do so in some cases but this needs to be more extensive. 

      Thank you for pointing this out. In response, we have reviewed the Discussion section and added references to relevant figures where appropriate. In the section discussing the discrepancies between the profiles of GE vs. AS, we now refer to Figure 3 to highlight the earlier onset of different transcriptomic resolutions (Page 12); When describing the sex-specific age-associated AS changes and their associations with Alzheimer’s disease, we have added references to Figure 4 (Page 12); In the discussion of estrogen-mediated regulation of splicing factors, we have referred to Figure 5A, which detail the construction of RBP-RNA regulatory network integrating muti-dimensional data obtained through several orthogonal state-of-the-art approaches (Page 14).

      Reference:

      (1) Ferreira, P.G. et al. The effects of death and post-mortem cold ischemia on human tissue transcriptomes. Nature communications 9, 490 (2018).

      (2) Wucher, V., Sodaei, R., Amador, R., Irimia, M. & Guigó, R. Day-night and seasonal variation of human gene expression across tissues. PLoS Biology 21, e3001986 (2023).

      (3) Shen, X. et al. Nonlinear dynamics of multi-omics profiles during human aging. Nature aging, 116 (2024).

      (4) Zhou, X. et al. Splicing factor SRSF1 promotes gliomagenesis via oncogenic splice-switching of MYO1B. The Journal of clinical investigation 129, 676-693 (2019).

      (5) Soheili-Nezhad, S., Ibáñez-Solé, O., Izeta, A., Hoeijmakers, J.H. & Stoeger, T. Time is ticking faster for long genes in aging. Trends in Genetics 40, 299-312 (2024).

      (6) Brouillette, M. Gene length could be a critical factor in the aging of the genome. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 121, e2416630121 (2024).

      (7) Keele, G.R. et al. Global and tissue-specific aging effects on murine proteomes. Cell reports 42(2023).

      (8) Ferretti, M.T. et al. Sex differences in Alzheimer disease—the gateway to precision medicine. Nature Reviews Neurology 14, 457-469 (2018).

      (9) Foo, H. et al. Age-and sex-related topological organization of human brain functional networks and their relationship to cognition. Frontiers in aging neuroscience 13, 758817 (2021).

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      The work is a useful contribution towards understanding the role of archaeal and plant D-aminoacyl-tRNA deacylase 2 (DTD2) in deacylation and detoxification of D-Tyr-tRNATyr modified by various aldehydes produced as metabolic byproducts in plants. It integrates convincing results from both in vitro and in vivo experiments to address the long-standing puzzle of why plants outperform bacteria in handling reactive aldehydes and suggests a new strategy for stress-tolerant crops. The impact of the paper is limited by the fact that only one modified D-aminoacyl tRNA was examined, in lack of evidence that plant eEF1A mimics EF-Tu in protecting L-aminoacyl tRNAs from modification, and in failure to measure accumulation of toxic D-aminoacyl tRNAs or impairment of translation in plant cells lacking DTD2.

      We have now addressed all the drawbacks as follows:

      ‘only one modified D-aminoacyl tRNA was examined’

      We wish to clarify that only D-Leu (Yeast), D-Asp (Bacteria, Yeast), D-Tyr (Bacteria, Cyanobacteria, Yeast) and D-Trp (Bacteria) show toxicity in vivo in the absence of known DTD (Soutourina J. et al., JBC, 2000; Soutourina O. et al., JBC, 2004; Wydau S. et al., JBC, 2009) and D-Tyr-tRNATyr is used as a model substrate to test the DTD activity in the field because of the conserved toxicity of D-Tyr in various organisms. DTD2 has been shown to recycle D-Asp-tRNAAsp and D-Tyr-tRNATyr with the same efficiency both in vitro and in vivo (Wydau S. et al., NAR, 2007) and it also recycles acetaldehyde-modified D-Phe-tRNAPhe and D-Tyr-tRNATyr in vitro as shown in our earlier work (Mazeed M. et al., Science Advances, 2021). We have earlier shown that DTD1, another conserved chiral proofreader across bacteria and eukaryotes, acts via a side chain independent mechanism (Ahmad S. et al., eLife, 2013). To check the biochemical activity of DTD2 on D-Trp-tRNATrp, we have now done the D-Trp, D-Tyr and D-Asp toxicity rescue experiments by expressing the archaeal DTD2 in dtd null E. coli cells. We found that DTD2 could rescue the D-Trp toxicity with equal efficiency like D-Tyr and D-Asp (Figure: 1). Considering the action on multiple side chains with different chemistry and size, it can be proposed with reasonable confidence that DTD2 also operates based on a side chain independent manner.

      Author response image 1.

      DTD2 recycles multiple D-aa-tRNAs with different side chain chemistry and size. Growth of wildtype (WT), dtd null strain (∆dtd), and Pyrococcus horikoshii DTD2 (PhoDTD2) complemented ∆dtd strains of E. coli K12 cells with 500 µM IPTG along with A) no D-amino acids, B) 2.5 mM D-tyrosine, C) 30 mM D-aspartate and D) 5 mM D-tryptophan.

      ‘lack of evidence that plant eEF1A mimics EF-Tu in protecting L-aminoacyl tRNAs from modification’

      To understand the role of plant eEF1A in protecting L-aa-tRNAs from aldehyde modification, we have done a thorough sequence and structural analysis. We analysed the aa-tRNA bound elongation factor structure from bacteria (PDB ids: 1TTT) and found that the side chain of amino acid in the amino acid binding site of EF-Tu is projected outside (Figure: 2A; 3A). In addition, the amino group of amino acid is tightly selected by the main chain atoms of elongation factor thereby lacking a space for aldehydes to enter and then modify the L-aa-tRNAs and Gly-tRNAs (Figure: 2B; 3B). Modelling of D-amino acid (D-phenylalanine and smallest chiral amino acid, D-alanine) in the same site shows serious clashes with main chain atoms of EF-Tu, indicating D-chiral rejection during aa-tRNA binding by elongation factor (Figure: 2C-E). Next, we superimposed the tRNA bound mammalian eEF-1A cryoEM structure (PDB id: 5LZS) with bacterial structure to understand the structural differences in terms of tRNA binding and found that elongation factor binds tRNA in a similar way (Figure: 3C-D). Modelling of D-alanine in the amino acid binding site of eEF-1A shows serious clashes with main chain atoms, indicating a general theme of D-chiral rejection during aa-tRNA binding by elongation factor (Figure: 2F; 3E). Structure-based sequence alignment of elongation factor from bacteria, archaea and eukaryotes (both plants and mammals) shows a strict conservation of amino acid binding site (Figure: 2G). This suggests that eEF-1A will mimic EF-Tu in protecting L-aa-tRNAs from reactive aldehydes. Minor differences near the amino acid side chain binding site (as indicated in Wolfson and Knight, FEBS Letters, 2005) might induce the amino acid specific binding differences (Figure: 3F). However, those changes will have no influence when the D-chiral amino acid enters the pocket, as the whole side chain would clash with the active site. We have now included this sequence and structural conservation analysis in our revised manuscript (in text: line no 107-129; Figure: 2 and S2). Overall, our structural analysis suggests a conserved mode of aa-tRNA selection by elongation factor across life forms and therefore, our biochemical results with bacterial elongation factor Tu (EF-Tu) reflect the protective role of elongation factor in general across species.

      Author response image 2.

      Elongation factor enantio-selects L-aa-tRNAs through D-chiral rejection mechanism. A) Surface representation showing the cocrystal structure of EF-Tu with L-Phe-tRNAPhe. Zoomed-in image showing the binding of L-phenylalanine with side chain projected outside of binding site of EF-Tu (PDB id: 1TTT). B) Zoomed-in image of amino acid binding site of EF-Tu bound with L-phenylalanine showing the selection of amino group of amino acid through main chain atoms (PDB id: 1TTT). C) Modelling of D-phenylalanine in the amino acid binding site of EF-Tu shows severe clashes with main chain atoms of EF-Tu. Modelling of smallest chiral amino acid, alanine, in the amino acid binding site of EF-Tu shows D) no clashes with L-alanine and E) clashes with D-alanine. F) Modelling of D-alanine in the amino acid binding site of eEF-1A shows clashes with main chain atoms. (*Represents modelled molecule). G) Structure-based sequence alignment of elongation factor from bacteria, archaea and eukaryotes (both plants and animals) showing conserved amino acid binding site residues. (Key residues are marked with red star).

      Author response image 3.

      Elongation factor protects L-aa-tRNAs from aldehyde modification. A) Cartoon representation showing the cocrystal structure of EF-Tu with L-Phe-tRNAPhe (PDB id: 1TTT). B) Zoomed-in image of amino acid binding site of EF-Tu bound with L-phenylalanine (PDB id: 1TTT). C) Cartoon representation showing the cryoEM structure of eEF-1A with tRNAPhe (PDB id: 5LZS). D) Image showing the overlap of EF-Tu:L-Phe-tRNAPhe crystal structure and eEF-1A:tRNAPhe cryoEM structure (r.m.s.d. of 1.44 Å over 292 Cα atoms). E) Zoomed-in image of amino acid binding site of eEF-1A with modelled L-alanine (PDB id: 5ZLS). (*Modelled) F) Overlap showing the amino acid binding site residues of EF-Tu and eEF-1A. (EF-Tu residues are marked in black and eEF-1A residues are marked in red).

      ‘failure to measure accumulation of toxic D-aminoacyl tRNAs or impairment of translation in plant cells lacking DTD2’

      We agree that measuring the accumulation of D-aa-tRNA adducts from plant cells lacking DTD2 is important. We tried to characterise the same with dtd2 mutant plants extensively through Northern blotting as well as mass spectrometry. However, due to the lack of information about the tissue getting affected (root or shoot), identity of aa-tRNA as well as location of aa-tRNA (cytosol or organellar), we are so far unsuccessful in identifying them from plants. Efforts are still underway to identify them from plant system lacking DTD2. However, we have used a bacterial surrogate system, E. coli, as used earlier in Mazeed M. et al., Science Advances, 2021 to show the accumulation of D-aa-tRNA adducts in the absence of dtd. We could identify the accumulation of both formaldehyde and MG modified D-aa-tRNA adducts via mass spectrometry (Figure: 4). These results are now included in the revised manuscript (in line no: 190-197 and Figure: S5).

      Author response image 4.

      Loss of DTD results in accumulation of modified D-aminoacyl adducts on tRNAs in E. coli. Mass spectrometry analysis showing the accumulation of aldehyde modified D-Tyr-tRNATyr in A) Δdtd E. coli, B) formaldehyde and D-tyrosine treated Δdtd E. coli, and C) MG and D-tyrosine treated Δdtd E. coli. ESI-MS based tandem fragmentation analysis for unmodified and aldehyde modified D-Tyr-tRNATyr in D) Δdtd E. coli, E) and F) formaldehyde and D-tyrosine treated Δdtd E. coli, G) and H) MG and D-tyrosine treated Δdtd E. coli.

      Response to Public Reviews:

      We are grateful for the reviewers’ positive feedback and their comments and suggestions on this manuscript. Reviewer 1 has indicated two weaknesses and Reviewer 2 has none. We have now addressed all the concerns of the Reviewers.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This work is an extension of the authors' earlier work published in Sci Adv in 2001, wherein the authors showed that DTD2 deacylates N-ethyl-D-aminoacyl-tRNAs arising from acetaldehyde toxicity. The authors in this study, investigate the role of archaeal/plant DTD2 in the deacylation/detoxification of D-Tyr-tRNATyr modified by multiple other aldehydes and methylglyoxal (produced by plants). Importantly, the authors take their biochemical observations to plants, to show that deletion of DTD2 gene from a model plant (Arabidopsis thaliana) makes them sensitive to the aldehyde supplementation in the media especially in the presence of D-Tyr. These conclusions are further supported by the observation that the model plant shows increased tolerance to the aldehyde stress when DTD2 is overproduced from the CaMV 35S promoter. The authors propose a model for the role of DTD2 in the evolution of land plants. Finally, the authors suggest that the transgenic crops carrying DTD2 may offer a strategy for stress-tolerant crop development. Overall, the authors present a convincing story, and the data are supportive of the central theme of the story.

      We are happy that reviewer found our work convincing and would like to thank the reviewer for finding our data supportive to the central theme of the manuscript.

      Strengths:

      Data are novel and they provide a new perspective on the role of DTD2, and propose possible use of the DTD2 lines in crop improvement.

      We are happy for this positive comment on the manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      (a) Data obtained from a single aminoacyl-tRNA (D-Tyr-tRNATyr) have been generalized to imply that what is relevant to this model substrate is true for all other D-aa-tRNAs (term modified aa-tRNAs has been used synonymously with the modified Tyr-tRNATyr). This is not a risk-free extrapolation. For example, the authors see that DTD2 removes modified D-Tyr from tRNATyr in a chain-length dependent manner of the modifier. Why do the authors believe that the length of the amino acid side chain will not matter in the activity of DTD2?

      We thank the reviewer for bringing up this important point. As mentioned above, we wish to clarify that only half of the aminoacyl-tRNA synthetases are known to charge D-amino acids and only D-Leu (Yeast), D-Asp (Bacteria, Yeast), D-Tyr (Bacteria, Cyanobacteria, Yeast) and D-Trp (Bacteria) show toxicity in vivo in the absence of known DTD (Soutourina J. et al., JBC, 2000; Soutourina O. et al., JBC, 2004; Wydau S. et al., JBC, 2009). D-Tyr-tRNATyr is used as a model substrate to test the DTD activity in the field because of the conserved toxicity of D-Tyr in various organisms. DTD2 has been shown to recycle D-Asp-tRNAAsp and D-Tyr-tRNATyr with the same efficiency both in vitro and in vivo (Wydau S. et al., NAR, 2007). Moreover, we have previously shown that it recycles acetaldehyde-modified D-Phe-tRNAPhe and D-Tyr-tRNATyr in vitro as shown in our earlier work (Mazeed M. et al., Science Advances, 2021). We have earlier shown that DTD1, another conserved chiral proofreader across bacteria and eukaryotes, acts via a side chain independent mechanism (Ahmad S. et al., eLife, 2013). To check the biochemical activity of DTD2 on D-Trp-tRNATrp, we have now done the D-Trp, D-Tyr and D-Asp toxicity rescue experiments by expressing the archaeal DTD2 in dtd null E. coli cells. We found that DTD2 could rescue the D-Trp toxicity with equal efficiency like D-Tyr and D-Asp (Figure 1). Considering the action on multiple side chains with different chemistry and size, it can be proposed with reasonable confidence that DTD2 also operates based on a side chain independent manner.

      (b) While the use of EFTu supports that the ternary complex formation by the elongation factor can resist modifications of L-Tyr-tRNATyr by the aldehydes or other agents, in the context of the present work on the role of DTD2 in plants, one would want to see the data using eEF1alpha. This is particularly relevant because there are likely to be differences in the way EFTu and eEF1alpha may protect aminoacyl-tRNAs (for example see description in the latter half of the article by Wolfson and Knight 2005, FEBS Letters 579, 3467-3472).

      We thank the reviewer for bringing up this important point. As mentioned above, to understand the role of plant eEF1A in protecting L-aa-tRNAs from aldehyde modification, we have done a thorough sequence and structural analysis. We analysed the aa-tRNA bound elongation factor structure from bacteria (PDB ids: 1TTT) and found that the side chain of amino acid in the amino acid binding site of EF-Tu is projected outside (Figure: 2A; 3A). In addition, the amino group of amino acid is tightly selected by the main chain atoms of elongation factor thereby lacking a space for aldehydes to enter and then modify the L-aa-tRNAs and Gly-tRNAs (Figure: 2B; 3B). Modelling of D-amino acid (D-phenylalanine and smallest chiral amino acid, D-alanine) in the same site shows serious clashes with main chain atoms of EF-Tu, indicating D-chiral rejection during aa-tRNA binding by elongation factor (Figure: 2C-E). Next, we superimposed the tRNA bound mammalian eEF-1A cryoEM structure (PDB id: 5LZS) with bacterial structure to understand the structural differences in terms of tRNA binding and found that elongation factor binds tRNA in a similar way (Figure: 3C-D). Modelling of D-alanine in the amino acid binding site of eEF-1A shows serious clashes with main chain atoms, indicating a general theme of D-chiral rejection during aa-tRNA binding by elongation factor (Figure: 2F; 3E). Structure-based sequence alignment of elongation factor from bacteria, archaea and eukaryotes (both plants and mammals) shows a strict conservation of amino acid binding site (Figure: 2G). Minor differences near the amino acid side chain binding site (as indicated in Wolfson and Knight, FEBS Letters, 2005) might induce the amino acid specific binding differences (Figure: 3F). However, those changes will have no influence when the D-chiral amino acid enters the pocket, as the whole side chain would clash with the active site. We have now included this sequence and structural conservation analysis in our revised manuscript (in text: line no 107-129; Figure: 2 and S2). Overall, our structural analysis suggests a conserved mode of aa-tRNA selection by elongation factor across life forms and therefore, our biochemical results with bacterial elongation factor Tu (EF-Tu) reflect the protective role of elongation factor in general across species.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      In bacteria and mammals, metabolically generated aldehydes become toxic at high concentrations because they irreversibly modify the free amino group of various essential biological macromolecules. However, these aldehydes can be present in extremely high amounts in archaea and plants without causing major toxic side effects. This fact suggests that archaea and plants have evolved specialized mechanisms to prevent the harmful effects of aldehyde accumulation.

      In this study, the authors show that the plant enzyme DTD2, originating from archaea, functions as a D-aminoacyl-tRNA deacylase. This enzyme effectively removes stable D-aminoacyl adducts from tRNAs, enabling these molecules to be recycled for translation. Furthermore, they demonstrate that DTD2 serves as a broad detoxifier for various aldehydes in vivo, extending its function beyond acetaldehyde, as previously believed. Notably, the absence of DTD2 makes plants more susceptible to reactive aldehydes, while its overexpression offers protection against them. These findings underscore the physiological significance of this enzyme.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive comments the manuscript.

      Response to recommendation to authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I enjoyed reading the manuscript entitled, "Archaeal origin translation proofreader imparts multi aldehyde stress tolerance to land plants" from the Sankaranarayanan lab. This work is an extension of their earlier work published in Sci Adv in 2001, wherein they showed that DTD2 deacylates N-ethyl-D-aminoacyl-tRNAs arising from acetaldehyde toxicity. Now, the authors of this study (Kumar et al.) investigate the role of archaeal/plant DTD2 in the deacylation/detoxification of D-Tyr-tRNATyr modified by multiple other aldehydes and methylglyoxal (which are produced during metabolic reactions in plants). Importantly, the authors take their biochemical observations to plants, to show that deletion of DTD2 gene from a model plant (Arabidopsis thaliana) makes them sensitive to the aldehyde supplementation in the media especially in the presence of D-Tyr. These conclusions are further supported by the observation that the model plant shows increased tolerance to the aldehyde stress when DTD2 is overproduced from the CaMV 35S promoter. The authors propose a model for the role of DTD2 in the evolution of land plants. Finally, the authors suggest that the transgenic crops carrying DTD2 may offer a strategy for stress-tolerant crop development. Overall, the authors present a convincing story, and the data are supportive of the central theme of the story.

      We are happy that reviewer enjoyed our manuscript and found our work convincing. We would also like to thank reviewer for finding our data supportive to the central theme of the manuscript.

      I have the following observations that require the authors' attention.

      1) The title of the manuscript will be more appropriate if revised to, "Archaeal origin translation proofreader, DTD2, imparts multialdehyde stress tolerance to land plants".

      Both the reviewer’s suggested to change the title. We have now changed the title based on reviewer 2 suggestion.

      2) Abstract (line 19): change, "physiologically abundantly produced" to "physiologically produced".

      As per the reviewer’s suggestion, we have now changed it to "physiologically produced".

      3) Introduction (line 50): delete, 'extremely'.

      We have removed the word 'extremely' from the Introduction.

      4) Line 79: change, "can be utilized" to "may be explored".

      We have changed "can be utilized" to "may be explored" as suggested by the reviewers.

      5) Results in general:

      (a) Data obtained from a single aminoacyl-tRNA (D-Tyr-tRNATyr) have been generalized to imply that what is relevant to this model substrate is true for all other D-aa-tRNAs (term modified aa-tRNAs has been used synonymously with the modified D-Tyr-tRNATyr). This is a risky extrapolation. For example, the authors see that DTD2 removes modified D-Tyr from tRNATyr in a chain-length dependent manner of the modifier. Why do the authors believe that the length of the amino acid side chain will not matter in the activity of DTD2?

      We thank the reviewer for bringing up this important point. As mentioned above, we wish to clarify that only half of the aminoacyl-tRNA synthetases are known to charge D-amino acids and only D-Leu (Yeast), D-Asp (Bacteria, Yeast), D-Tyr (Bacteria, Cyanobacteria, Yeast) and D-Trp (Bacteria) show toxicity in vivo in the absence of known DTD (Soutourina J. et al., JBC, 2000; Soutourina O. et al., JBC, 2004; Wydau S. et al., JBC, 2009). D-Tyr-tRNATyr is used as a model substrate to test the DTD activity in the field because of the conserved toxicity of D-Tyr in various organisms. DTD2 has been shown to recycle D-Asp-tRNAAsp and D-Tyr-tRNATyr with the same efficiency both in vitro and in vivo (Wydau S. et al., NAR, 2007). Moreover, we have previously shown that it recycles acetaldehyde-modified D-Phe-tRNAPhe and D-Tyr-tRNATyr in vitro as shown in our earlier work (Mazeed M. et al., Science Advances, 2021). We have earlier shown that DTD1, another conserved chiral proofreader across bacteria and eukaryotes, acts via a side chain independent mechanism (Ahmad S. et al., eLife, 2013). To check the biochemical activity of DTD2 on D-Trp-tRNATrp, we have now done the D-Trp, D-Tyr and D-Asp toxicity rescue experiments by expressing the archaeal DTD2 in dtd null E. coli cells. We found that DTD2 could rescue the D-Trp toxicity with equal efficiency like D-Tyr and D-Asp (Figure 1). Considering the action on multiple side chains with different chemistry and size, it can be proposed with reasonable confidence that DTD2 also operates based on a side chain independent manner.

      (b) Interestingly, the authors do suggest (in the Materials and Methods section) that the experiments were performed with Phe-tRNAPhe as well as Ala-tRNAAla. If what is stated in Materials and Methods is correct, these data should be included to generalize the observations.

      We regret for the confusing statement. We wish to clarify that L- and D-Tyr-tRNATyr were used for checking the TLC-based aldehyde modification, EF-Tu based protection assays and deacylation assays, D-Phe-tRNAPhe was used to characterise aldehyde-based modification by mass spectrometry and L-Ala-tRNAAla was used to check the modification propensity of multiple aldehydes. We used multiple aa-tRNAs to emphasize that aldehyde-based modifications are aspecific towards the identity of aa-tRNAs. All the data obtained with respective aa-tRNAs are included in manuscript.

      (c) While the use of EFTu supports that the ternary complex formation by the elongation factor can resist modifications of L-Tyr-tRNATyr by the aldehydes or other agents, in the context of the present work on the role of DTD2 in plants, one would want to see the data using eEF1alpha. This is particularly relevant because there are likely to be differences in the way EFTu and eEF1alpha may protect aminoacyl-tRNAs (for example see description in the latter half of the article by Wolfson and Knight 2005, FEBS Letters 579, 3467-3472).

      We thank the reviewer for bringing up this important point. As mentioned above, to understand the role of plant eEF1A in protecting L-aa-tRNAs from aldehyde modification, we have done a thorough sequence and structural analysis. We analysed the aa-tRNA bound elongation factor structure from bacteria (PDB ids: 1TTT) and found that the side chain of amino acid in the amino acid binding site of EF-Tu is projected outside (Figure: 2A; 3A). In addition, the amino group of amino acid is tightly selected by the main chain atoms of elongation factor thereby lacking a space for aldehydes to enter and then modify the L-aa-tRNAs and Gly-tRNAs (Figure: 2B; 3B). Modelling of D-amino acid (D-phenylalanine and smallest chiral amino acid, D-alanine) in the same site shows serious clashes with main chain atoms of EF-Tu, indicating D-chiral rejection during aa-tRNA binding by elongation factor (Figure: 2C-E). Next, we superimposed the tRNA bound mammalian eEF-1A cryoEM structure (PDB id: 5LZS) with bacterial structure to understand the structural differences in terms of tRNA binding and found that elongation factor binds tRNA in a similar way (Figure: 3C-D). Modelling of D-alanine in the amino acid binding site of eEF-1A shows serious clashes with main chain atoms, indicating a general theme of D-chiral rejection during aa-tRNA binding by elongation factor (Figure: 2F; 3E). Structure-based sequence alignment of elongation factor from bacteria, archaea and eukaryotes (both plants and mammals) shows a strict conservation of amino acid binding site (Figure: 2G). Minor differences near the amino acid side chain binding site (as indicated in Wolfson and Knight, FEBS Letters, 2005) might induce the amino acid specific binding differences (Figure: 3F). However, those changes will have no influence when the D-chiral amino acid enters the pocket, as the whole side chain would clash with the active site. We have now included this sequence and structural conservation analysis in our revised manuscript (in text: line no 107-129; Figure: 2 and S2). Overall, our structural analysis suggests a conserved mode of aa-tRNA selection by elongation factor across life forms and therefore, our biochemical results with bacterial elongation factor Tu (EF-Tu) reflect the protective role of elongation factor in general across species.

      6) Results (line 89): Figure: 1C-G (not B-G).

      As correctly pointed out by the reviewer(s), we have changed it to Figure: 1C-G.

      7) Results (line 91): Figure: S1B-G (not C-G).

      We wish to clarify that this is correct.

      8) Line 97: change, "propionaldehyde" to "propionaldehyde (Figure: 1H)".

      As per the reviewer’s suggestion, we have now changed, "propionaldehyde" to "propionaldehyde (Figure: 1H)".

      9) Line 124: The statement, "DTD2 cleaved all modified D-aa-tRNAs at 50 pM to 500 nM range (Figure: 2A_D)" is not consistent with the data presented. For example, Figure 2D does not show any significant cleavage. Figure S2A-B also does not show cleavage.

      We thank the reviewers for pointing this out. We have changed the sentence to “DTD2 cleaved majority of aldehyde modified D-aa-tRNAs at 50 pM to 500 nM range".

      10) Line 131: Cleavage observed in Fig. S2E is inconsistent with the generalized statement on DTD1.

      We wish to clarify that the minimal activity seen in Fig. S2E is inconsistent with the general trend of DTD1’s biochemical activity seen on modified D-aa-tRNAs. In addition, we have earlier shown that D-aa-tRNA fits snugly in the active site of DTD1 (Ahmad S. et al., eLife, 2013) whereas the modified D-aa-tRNA cannot bind due to the space constrains in the active site of DTD1 (Mazeed M. et al., Science Advances, 2021). Therefore, this minimal activity could be a result of technical error during this biochemical experiment and could be considered as no activity.

      11) Lines 129-133: Citations of many figure panels particularly in the supplementary figures are inconsistent with generalized statements. This section requires a major rewrite or rearrangement of the figure panels (in case the statements are correct).

      We thank the reviewers for bringing forth this point and we have accordingly modified the statement into “DTD2 from archaea recycled short chain aldehyde-modified D-aa-tRNA adducts as expected (Figure: 3E-G) and, like DTD2 from plants, it did not act on aldehyde-modified D-aa-tRNAs longer than three chains (Figure: 3H; S3C-D; S4G-L)”.

      12) Line 142: I don't believe one can call PTH a proofreader. Its job is to recycle tRNAs from peptidyl-tRNAs.

      We thank the reviewers for pointing out this very important point. This is now corrected.

      13). Line 145: change, "DTD2 can exert its protection for" to "DTD2 may exert protection from".

      As per the reviewer’s suggestion, we have now changed"DTD2 can exert its protection for" to "DTD2 may exert protection from".

      14) Line 148: change, "a homozygous line (Figure: 3A) and checked for" to "homozygous lines (Figure: 3A) and checked them for".

      As per the reviewer’s suggestion, we have now changed, "a homozygous line (Figure: 3A) and checked for" to "homozygous lines (Figure: 3A) and checked them for".

      15) Line 148: Change, the sentence beginning with dtd2 as follows. Similar to earlier results30-32, dtd2-/- (dtd2 hereafter) plants were susceptible to ethanol (Figure: S4A) confirming the non-functionality DTD2 gene in dtd2 plants.

      As per the reviewer’s suggestion, we have now changed the sentence accordingly.

      16) Line 161: change, "linked" to "associated".

      As per the reviewer’s suggestion, we have now changed "linked" to "associated".

      17) Lines 173-176: It would be interesting to know how well the DTD2 OE lines do in comparison to the other known transgenic lines developed with, for example, ADH, ALDH, or AOX lines. Any ideas would help appreciate the observation with DTD2 OE lines!

      We greatly appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion. We have not done any comparison experiment with any transgenic lines so far. However, it can be potentially done in further studies with DTD2 OE lines.

      18) Line 194: change, "necessary" with "present".

      As per the reviewer’s suggestion, we have now changed "necessary" with "present".

      19) Line 210: what is meant by 'huge'? Would 'significant' sound better?

      As per the reviewer’s suggestion, we have now changed "huge" with "significant".

      20) Lines 239-243: This needs to be rephrased. Isn't alpha carbonyl of the carboxyl group that makes ester bond with the -CCA end of the tRNA required for DTD2 activity as well? Are you referring to the carbonyl group in the moiety that modifies the alpha-amino group? Please clarify. The cited reference (no. 64) of Atherly does not talk about it.

      We regret for the confusing statement. To clarify, we were referencing to the carbonyl carbon of the modification post amino group of the amino acid in aa-tRNAs (Figure: 5). We have now included a figure (Figure: S4Q of revised manuscript) to show the comparison of the carbonyl group for the better clarity. The cited reference Atherly A. G., Nature, 1978 shows the activity of PTH on peptidyl-tRNAs and peptidyl-tRNAs possess carbonyl carbon at alpha position post amino group of amino acid in L-aa-tRNAs.

      Author response image 5.

      Figure showing the difference in the position of carbonyl carbon in acetonyl and acetyl modification on aa-tRNAs.

      21) Line 261: thrive (not thrives).

      As per the reviewer’s suggestion, we have now changed it to thrive.

      22) In Fig3A: second last lane, it should be dtd-/-:: AtDTDH150A (not dtd-/-:: AtDTDH150A).

      We thank the reviewers for pointing out this, we have corrected it.

      23). Materials and methods: Please clarify which experiments used tRNAPhe, tRNAAla, PheRS, etc. Also, please carefully check all other details provided in this section.

      As per the reviewer’s suggestion, we would like to provide a table below explaining the use of different substrates as well as enzymes in our experiments.

      Author response table 1.

      24) Figure legends (many places): p values higher than 0.05 (not less than) are denoted as ns.

      We thank the reviewers for pointing out this. We have corrected it.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I have only minor comments for the authors:

      Title: I would replace "Archeal origin translation proofreader" with " A translation proofreader of archeal origin"

      As per the reviewer’s suggestion, we have now changed the title.

      Abstract: This section could benefit from some rewriting. For instance, at the outset, the initial logical connection between the first and second sentences of the abstract is somewhat unclear. At the very least, I would suggest swapping their order to enhance the narrative flow. Later in the text, the term "chiral proofreading systems" is introduced; however, it is only in a subsequent sentence that these systems are explained to be responsible for removing stable D-aminoacyl adducts from tRNA. Providing an immediate explanation of these systems would enhance the reader's comprehension. The authors switch from the past participle tense to the present tense towards the end of the text. I would recommend that they choose one tense for consistency. In the final sentence, I would suggest toning down the statement and replacing "can be used" with "could be explored." (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-02895-w). The same comment applies to the introduction, line 79.

      As per the reviewer’s suggestion, we have now changed the abstract appropriately.

      General note: Conventionally, the use of italics is reserved for the specific species "Arabidopsis thaliana," while the broader genus "Arabidopsis" is not italicized.

      We acknowledge the reviewer for this pertinent suggestion. This is now corrected in revised version of our manuscript.

      General note: I would advise the authors against employing bold characters in conjunction with colors in the figures.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have now changed it appropriately in revised version of our manuscript.

      Figure 1A: I recommend including the concentrations of the various aldehydes used in the experiment within the figure legend. While this information is available in the materials and methods section, it would be beneficial to have it readily accessible when analyzing the figure.

      As per the reviewer’s suggestion, we have now included the concentrations in figure legend.

      Figure 1I, J: some error bars are invisible.

      We thank the reviewers for pointing out this, we have corrected it.

      Figure 2M: The table could be simplified by removing aldehydes for which it was not feasible to demonstrate activity. The letter "M" within the cell labeled "aldehydes" appears to be a typographical error, presumably indicating the figure panel.

      As per the reviewer’s suggestion, we have now changed this appropriately.

      Figure 3: For consistency with the other panels in the figure, I recommend including an additional panel to display the graph depicting the impact of MG on germination.

      As per the reviewer’s suggestion, we have now changed this appropriately.

      Figure 4: Considering that only one plant is presented, it would be beneficial to visualize the data distribution for the other plants used in this experiment, similar to what the authors have done in panel A of the same figure.

      We thank the reviewer for bringing up this point. We wish to clarify that we have done experiment with multiple plants. However, for the sake of clarity, we have included the representative images. Moreover, we have included the quantitative data for multiple plants in Figure 3C-G.

      Figure 5E: The authors may consider presenting a chronological order of events as they believe they occurred during evolution.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. However, it is very difficult to pinpoint the chronology of the events. Aldehydes are lethal for systems due to their hyper reactivity and systems would require immediate solutions to survive. Therefore, we think that both problem (toxic aldehyde production) and its solution (expansion of aldehyde metabolising repertoire and recruitment of archaeal DTD2) might have appeared simultaneously.

      Figure 6: The model appears somewhat crowded, which may affect its clarity and ease of interpretation. The authors might also consider dividing the legend sentence into two separate sentences for better readability.

      As per the reviewer’s suggestion, we have now changed this appropriately.

      Line 149: I recommend explicitly stating that ethanol metabolism produces acetaldehyde. This clarification will help the general reader immediately understand why DTD2 mutant plants are sensitive to ethanol.

      As per the reviewer’s suggestion, we have now changed this appropriately.

      Line 289: there is a typographical error, "promotor" instead of the correct term "promoter.".

      We thank the referee for pointing out this, we have now corrected it.

      Figure S5: The root morphology of DTD2 OE plants appears to exhibit some differences compared to the WT, even in the absence of a high concentration of aldehydes. It would be valuable if the authors could comment on these observed differences unless they have already done so, and I may have overlooked it.

      We thank the referee for pointing out this. We do see minor differences in root morphology, but they are more pronounced with aldehyde treatments. The reason for this phenotype remains elusive and we are trying to understand the role of DTD2 in root development in detail in further studies.

      Some Curiosity Questions (not mandatory for manuscript acceptance):

      1) Do DTD2 OE plants display an earlier flowering phenotype than wild-type Col-0?

      We have not done detailed phenotyping of DTD2 OE plants. However, our preliminary observations suggest no differences in flowering pattern as compared to wild-type Col-0.

      2) What is the current understanding of the endogenous regulation of DTD2?

      We have not done detailed analysis to understand the endogenous regulation of DTD2.

      3) Could the protective phenotype of DTD2 OE plants in the presence of aldehydes be attributed to additional functions of this enzyme beyond the removal of stable D-aminoacyl adducts from tRNAs?

      Based on the available evidence regarding the biochemical activity and in vivo phenotypes of DTD2, it appears that removal of stable D-aminoacyl adducts from tRNA is key for the protective phenotype of DTD2 OE.

      A Suggestion for Future Research (not required for manuscript acceptance):

      The authors could explore the possibility of overexpressing DTD2 in pyruvate decarboxylase transgenic plants and assess whether this strategy enhances flood tolerance without incurring a growth penalty under normal growth conditions.

      We thank the referee for this interesting suggestion for future research. We will surely keep this in mind while exploring the flood tolerance potential of DTD2 OE plants.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Major change:

      All three of our reviewers raised the possibility that changes in movement during the time spent at the center ports could have contributed to changes in SWR rates. Analyses to address this possibility, based on the examination of trials with high and low speeds, were originally included in the supplement but we did not sufficiently highlight and explain these results. To rectify this, we have moved these results into a new main Figure 3 and now include a paragraph describing our interpretation of these results (page 9). We also include a more detailed description of the subjects’ behavior during port times – namely, that all subjects must remain quite stationary while at the reward ports in order to keep their nose in a specific position which keeps the port triggered. As a result, all subjects maintain head speeds well below our typical speed threshold for immobility while at the ports. This leads us to predict that any feedback based on periods of immobility alone (as requested by Reviewer 3) would show results very similar to our Control cohort and would not alter SWR rates seen during neurofeedback trials.

      Minor changes:

      (1) Reviewer 1 observed our that reported statistics appeared to be missing an interaction term showing that neurofeedback differentially affected the SWR rate/count pre- and postreward. We apologize for a lack of clarity here: we fit pre- and post-reward times with separate linear mixed effects models, so this interaction term is neither expected nor defined in our model. We have added a sentence clarifying this aspect of our LME approach in the Methods section: “Each model is designed to compare samples from all trials of the control group to samples from neurofeedback and delay trials from the neurofeedback cohort for a specific time period (for instance, pre-reward-delivery at the center ports).” Combining both times in the same model would require adding an additional hierarchical level in order to preserve the pairing of the pre- and post-reward time period for each trial, which we are concerned would complicate the formulation and interpretation of the model. However, the reviewer raises a good point that the comparison between these two time periods reveals an additional difference between the trial types: SWR rate remains relatively consistent between the pre- and post-reward periods during neurofeedback trials, while delay and control trials show a clear increase in SWR rate between the two time periods. To visualize and quantify this effect, we calculated the difference in SWR rates between the two time periods and now include this plot as Supplementary Figure 2F, which is referenced in page 8 of the main text.

      (2) Reviewer 2 found our original title, “Neurofeedback training can modulate task-relevant memory replay in rats” to be misleading and suggestive of a manipulation to memory content. We are in complete agreement with the Reviewer in that our manipulation does not alter replay content, so to be more specific and accurate, we have changed our title to their suggestion “Neurofeedback training can modulate task-relevant memory replay rate in rats” accordingly.

      (3) Reviewer 2 also requested that we include analyses quantifying baseline SWR rates for each of our experimental subjects. Although we initially considered reporting our results in measures of change relative to each individual animal’s baseline, we decided against this approach for several reasons.

      First, it is important to clarify that we extensively train the animals on the task prior to implant, so we do not have access to a truly naïve, pre-behavior baseline SWR rate for any of our subjects. However, because the pre-implant training is conducted consistently between our neurofeedback and our control cohort, we have no reason to believe that the behavioral training prior to implant would introduce differences in SWR rate between the cohorts. Indeed, we find no difference in post-reward SWR rate (or SWR rate at the home well) when we quantify the first 250 trials of post-implant behavior for each subject (see panel A below). Note that we cannot compare the pre-reward SWR rate at this point, because it is influenced by the task structure which guarantees at least one SWR in each neurofeedback trial pre-reward.

      Further, we do find that SWR rate is quite consistent over many days of task performance in the control cohort (show for the post-reward period in panel B below). This suggests that comparing the post-neurofeedback training SWR rates for the neurofeedback cohort to SWR rates throughout the training for the control cohort is not likely to be confounded by differing amounts of training experience. This is supported by our analyses in Figure 2 which show no differences in SWR rate between the two cohorts when considering pre- and post-reward times combined.

      Author response image 1.

      (A) SWR rate calculated during the post-reward period at the center port for the first 250 trials of postimplant behavior for each animal. Trials of all types are included (ie both neurofeedback trials and delay trials for the manipulation cohort). Groupwise comparison p=0.192. (B) Mean SWR rate during the post-reward period at the center port for each behavioral training epoch shows no systematic change over time across subjects within the control cohort.

      Finally, within each cohort, we found the overall SWR rates to be quite consistent across animals. If each subject in the neurofeedback cohort had shown dramatically different SWR rates at the beginning of neurofeedback training, we would have needed to express the effect of neurofeedback training relative to baseline for each animal. However, since the range of SWR rates were highly comparable, we felt that it was more accessible, and easier to place our results within the context of the literature, by expressing our results as simple SWR rates themselves rather than measures of relative change. Within the neurofeedback cohort, comparing neurofeedback to delay trials is inherently matched for baseline SWR rate since these comparisons are made within the same animal.

      (4) Finally, Reviewer 2 raises the possibility that older animals or those with cognitive deficits might respond to neurofeedback differently. We entirely agree with this possibility, and note this in our Discussion section: “Since the neurofeedback paradigm depends on the occurrence of at least a low endogenous rate of SWR occurrence, it would be important to implement neurofeedback training as a relatively early interventional strategy prior to extensive neurodegeneration, and training may take longer in aged or impaired subjects.”

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this study, Yue et al. re-processed publicly available DNA methylation data (published in 2012 and 2017 from the Meissner lab) from pre- and post-implantation mouse embryos. Against the global wave of genome-wide reduction of DNA methylation occurring during pre-implantation development, they detected a slight increase (~1% on average) of DNA methylation at gene promoter regions during the transition from 8-cell to blastocyst stage. They claim that many such promoters are located in the X chromosome. Subsequently, they knocked down Dnmt3b (presumably because of its upregulation during the transition from the 8-cell to blastocyst stage) and detected the aberrant patterning of H3K27me3 in the mutant female embryos. Based on this observation, they claim that imprinted X-chromosome inactivation is impaired in the Dnmt3b-Kd pre-implantation embryos. Finally, they propose a model where such an increase of DNA methylation together with H3K27me3 regulates imprinted X-chromosome inactivation in the pre-implantation embryos. While their observation is of potential interest, the current version of the work fails to provide enough evidence to support their conclusions. Below are suggestions and comments on the manuscript.

      Major issues:

      (1) Sex of the embryos of the genome-wide bisulfite-sequencing data

      The authors re-analyzed publicly available genome-wide DNA methylation data from the Meissner lab published in 2012 and 2017. The former used reduced representation bisulfite sequencing (RRBS) and the latter used whole-genome bisulfite sequencing (WGBS). Based mainly on the RRBS data, Yue et al. detected de novo DNA methylated promoters during the transition from 8-cell to blastocyst against the global wave of genome-wide DNA demethylation. They claim that such promoter regions are enriched at the "inactive" X chromosome. However, it would be difficult to discuss DNA methylation at inactive X-chromosomes as the RRBS data were derived from a mixture of male and female embryos. It would also be notable that the increase of DNA methylation at these promoter regions is ~1% on average. Such a slight increase in DNA methylation during pre-implantation development could also be due to the developmental variations between the embryos or between the sexes of embryos.

      Thanks so much for your insightful comments. Whether de novo DNA methylation occurs in a sex-dimorphic manner would be of significance for our study. Based on your comments, we have added a reanalysis based on a publicly available single cell multi-omics sequencing (COOL-seq) data of mouse early embryos (Guo et al., 2017). The results showed that both male and female embryonic cells gain DNA methylation during the transition from the 8-cell to ICM (Figure 1—figure supplement 1C-D; Lines 112-115 in the revised manuscript).

      With regards to the increase in the promoter region, many previous studies have revealed that promoter and overlapping CGI regions, especially high CpG promoters, always showed low levels of DNA methylation (Auclair et al., 2014; Borgel et al., 2010; Dahlet et al., 2020). The relatively lower basal levels make the increase seem relatively slight. Thus, we added relevant statements to clarify this information and rewritten the sentences in the revised manuscript (Lines 116-118, 125-127 in the revised manuscript).

      In addition, using the single cell COOL-seq data, we also specifically reanalyzed the DNA methylation changes on the X chromosome in female embryos. The X chromosome showed a more notable increase than that on autosomes, and the female X chromosome showed a higher DNA methylation level than that of the male (Figure 3—figure supplement 2A-B; Lines 203-206 in the revised manuscript).

      Thanks again for your insightful and constructive comments that significantly strengthen our evidence. We have added these results in the revised manuscript.

      (2) Imprinted X-chromosome inactivation and evaluation of H3K27me3 (related to Figures 2C, D; 3F; Figure2-supplement 2 F, G; Figure3-supplement 3G)

      Based on the slight change in the H3K27me3 signals in the Dnmt3b-Kd blastocysts, the authors claim that imprinted X-chromosome inactivation is impaired in the mutant embryo. It would be not easy to reach this conclusion from such a rough analysis of H3K27me3 presented in Figure 2C, D. Rigorous quantification/evaluation of the H3K27me3 signals in the Dnmt3b-Kd embryos should be considered. Additional evidence for the impairment of H3K27me3 in the mutant embryos should also be provided (expression of a subset of X-linked genes by RNA-FISH or RT-PCR etc.). Though technically challenging, high-resolution genome-wide approach such as ChIP-seq of H3K27me3 in the Dnmt3b-kd female embryos (with traceable SNPs between maternal and paternal X chromosome to distinguish inactive and active X-chromosome) could more precisely evaluate regions that lose H3K27me3 in the X-chromosome (de novo DNA methylated promoters from 8-cell to blastocyst, for example).

      Thanks so much for your insightful comments that make our results more convincing. The H3K27me3 domain is a classic marker for establishment of XCI by achieving X chromosome wide heterochromatinization of transcriptional depression (Chow and Heard, 2009; Heard et al., 2004; Huynh and Lee, 2005). Thus, in the present study, we have performed immunostaining for H3K27me3 domains to evaluate the iXCI status in the blastocysts, as previously reported (Fukuda et al., 2014; Gontan et al., 2018; Inoue et al., 2010; Tan et al., 2016). Base on your comments, we have added another statistical method to quantify the establishment of iXCI, i.e. the percentage of H3K27me3-positive and -negative cells to total trophoblast cells in female blastocysts subject to Dnmt3b knockdown or not. The result also indicated that Dnmt3b knockdown led to a significant loss of H3K27me3 domains from total trophoblast cells. Similarly, new data based on statistical analyses of total trophoblast cells, has also been added in the results of Dnmt3b knockout and 5-aza-dC (Figure 3F; Figure 3—figure supplement 3D, H in the revised manuscript).

      To clarify the significance and reliability of detecting H3K27me3 domains, we have added a schematic diagram depicting the process of iXCI initiation and establishment, as well as the experimental design and work flows, to make our results easier to be understood (Figure 3C in the revised manuscript).

      In addition, we agree with your comments that additional evidence will benefit the conclusion. Thus, we have reanalyzed the RNA-seq and H3K27me3 CHIP-seq data in extraembryonic ectoderm (ExE) of E6.5 single embryos that underwent Dnm3a/3b knockout because preimplantation iXCI status maintains extraembryonic cells (Chen et al., 2019; Galupa and Heard, 2015; Schulz and Heard, 2013). The results showed that Dnmt knockout-induced chromosome-wide loss of DNA methylation led to a nearly complete loss of H3k27me3 on paternal X chromosome (specifically inactivated in iXCI), along with a notable transcriptional upregulation cross the chromosome. By contrast, these changes cannot be not observed on maternal X chromosome.

      We have added this result in the revised manuscript (Lines 253-261; Figure 3—figure supplement 4A in the revised manuscript).

      (3) Analysis of the developmental potential of Dnmt3b-kd embryos

      While the authors claim that Dnmt3b-mediated de novo DNA methylation plays an important role in imprinted X-chromosome inactivation, it remains unclear whether the analysis presented in Figure 4 is derived from "female" embryos. This analysis seemed confusing as the authors claim that de novo DNA methylation in the promoter regions during the transition from 8-cell to blastocyst regulates imprinted X-chromosome inactivation, but this should not happen in the male embryos. Was the impairment of embryonic proliferation and differentiation observed in both male and female embryos? Or is this specific to the female embryos? We think that the sex of the embryos would be critical for the analysis presented in Figure 4.

      Thanks so much for your constructive comments to make our results smoother and clearer. The Figure 4 mainly presents the developmental role of minor de novo methylation based on the integrated analysis of DNA methylation and gene expression dynamics from the 8-cell to ICM. Because our data indicated that both male and female embryos undergo minor de novo methylation (Figure 1—figure supplement 1C-D in the revised manuscript). This section mainly focused on genome wide and general changes, but not on sex dimorphic consequence.

      To avoid the possible confusion, we have reorganized the RESULTS AND DISCUSSION section and presented this section as Figure 2 in the revised manuscript, before the chromosomal distribution analysis and subsequent detection relevant to iXCI.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Here, Yue et al. set out to determine if the low DNMT3B expression that is observed prior to de novo DNA methylation (before the blastocyst stage) has a function. Re-analyzing existing DNA methylation data from Smith et al. (2012) they find a small DNA methylation gain over a subset of promoters and gene bodies, occurring between the 8-cell and blastocyst stages, and refer to this as "minor de novo DNA methylation". They attempt to assess the relevance/functionality of this minor DNA methylation gain, and report reduced H3K27me3 in Dnmt3b knockdown (KD) trophoblast cells that normally undergo imprinted X-chromosome inactivation (iXCI) before the blastocyst stage. In addition, they assess the proliferation, differentiation, metabolic function, implantation rate, and live birth rate of Dnmt3b KD blastocysts.

      Strengths:

      Working with early embryos is technically demanding, making the well-designed experiments from this manuscript useful to the epigenetics community. Particularly, the DNMT3B expression and 5-mC staining at different embryonic stages.

      Thanks for your positive evaluation, we have revised manuscript based on your comments, and the items need to be addressed in detail are explained in the point-by-point response to each comment.

      Weaknesses:

      - Throughout the manuscript, please represent DNA methylation changes as delta DNA methylation instead of fold change.

      Thanks so much for your constructive comments. We have represented DNA methylation changes as “ΔDNA methylation” (Figure 2—figure supplement 1A; Figure 3—figure supplement 1A; Figure 3—figure supplement 3I in the revised manuscript).

      - Detailed methods on the re-analysis of the DNA methylation data from Smith et al. 2012 are missing from the materials and methods section. Was a minimum coverage threshold used?

      Thanks so much for your reminder. We have added relevant statements and provided the detail of the coverage criteria in the subsection of Bioinformatics analysis in the Materials and methods section as follows: RRBS data of mouse embryos (2-cell embryos, 4-cell embryos, 8-cell embryos, ICM, and E6.5 embryos) were downloaded from the published article by Smith et al (Smith et al., 2012) (accession number: GSE34864). The methylation level was calculated as the number of “methylated” reads (reporting as C), divided by the total number of “methylated” and “unmethylated” read, which reporting as C or T. The genomic region information was downloaded from the mm9 Repeat Masker. As described in the published article, promoters were defined as 1 kb up- and downstream of the TSS and classified into high-density CpG promoter (HCP), intermediate-density CpG promoter (ICP) and low-density CpG promoter (LCP). Only CpG sites with at least fivefold coverage were included in the methylation analysis. We have added relevant information in the revised manuscript (Lines 462-470 in the revised manuscript).

      - Detailed methods on the establishment and validation of Dnmt3b KO blastocysts and 5-aza-dC treated blastocysts are missing (related to Figure 2).

      Thanks so much for your detailed reminder. In the present study, we used a well-established Dnmt3b-deficient mouse model (Okano et al., 1999) to validate the role of minor de novo DNA methylation in iXCI establishment. Heterozygous Dnmt3b<sup>+/-</sup> mice that carry one mutant locus of Dnmt3b, were obtained from the Mutant Mouse Resource & Research Centers (MMRRC, NIH). Homozygous embryos were obtained by intercrossing Dnmt3b<sup>+/-</sup> male and female mice. Genotyping assays of collected embryos was performed by PCR using primers that were designed based on the gene targeting strategy following the MMRRC genotyping protocol (https://www.med.unc.edu/mmrrc/genotyping-protocols/mmrrc-center-protocol-29886/). We have provided the detailed methods in the revised manuscript (Lines 350-354; 391-393 in the revised manuscript). In addition, we added a schematic diagram depicting the processes of embryo collection and detection (Figure 3—figure supplement 3A in the revised manuscript).

      Similarly, we have provided relevant details of 5-aza-dC supplementation in the revised manuscript (Lines 412-415 in the revised manuscript) and added a schematic diagram depicting the details of experimental design and processes (Figure 3—figure supplement 3E in the revised manuscript).

      - Detailed methods on the re-analysis of the ChIPseq data from Liu et al. 2016 are missing from the materials and methods section.

      Thank you for pointing this out. The bigwig files of H3K27me3 ChIP-seq data were downloaded from the published article by Liu et al (Liu et al., 2016)(accession number: GSE73952). These signal tracks were generated using the MACS2 (v2.0.10.20131216) pileup function and normalized to 1 million reads for visualization, as described in the original publication. We have added relevant information to the MATERIALS AND METHODS section in the revised manuscript (Lines 474-479 in the revised manuscript).

      - Some of the data represented in bar graphs does not look convincing/significant. Maybe this data can be better represented differently, such as in box plots or violin plots, which would better represent the data.

      Thanks so much for your comments that improve our result presentation, relevant results have been changed into box plots in the revised manuscript (Figure 3E; Figure 3—figure supplement 3C; Figure 3—figure supplement 3G in the revised manuscript). In addition, to strengthen our evidence, we have added alternative statistical method to quantify the establishment of iXCI, i.e. the percentage of H3K27me3-positive and -negative cells to total trophoblast cells in female blastocysts subject to Dnmt3b knockdown or not. (Figure 3F; Figure 3—figure supplement 3D, H in the revised manuscript).

      - The relevance and rationale for experiments using 5-aza-dC treatment is unclear.

      Thanks so much for reminding us to make our results more informative and convincing. 5-aza-dC is a well-established global DNA hypomethylating agent that efficiently inhibit the activity of all DNMTs, and thus has been frequently used to study the maintenance of DNA methylation and de novo DNA methylation (Maslov et al., 2012; Oka et al., 2005).

      In our study, to validate the function of minor de novo DNA methylation in iXCI, we take advantage of 5-aza-dC-induced DNMT inhibition, which allows us, despite its inhibitory effect common to various DNMTs, to transiently treat embryos specifically during the window of minor de novo DNA methylation (from the 8-cell to blastocyst stage). We have added these statements, as well as a schematic diagram depicting the experimental design, in the revised manuscript to make our experiments more rational and easier to be understood (Lines 183-188; Figure 3—figure supplement 3E in the revised manuscript).

      References

      Auclair, G., Guibert, S., Bender, A. and Weber, M. (2014). Ontogeny of CpG island methylation and specificity of DNMT3 methyltransferases during embryonic development in the mouse. Genome Biol. 15, 545.

      Borgel, J., Guibert, S., Li, Y., Chiba, H., Schubeler, D., Sasaki, H., Forne, T. and Weber, M. (2010). Targets and dynamics of promoter DNA methylation during early mouse development. Nat. Genet. 42, 1093-1100.

      Chen, Z., Yin, Q., Inoue, A., Zhang, C. and Zhang, Y. (2019). Allelic H3K27me3 to allelic DNA methylation switch maintains noncanonical imprinting in extraembryonic cells. Sci Adv 5, eaay7246.

      Chow, J. and Heard, E. (2009). X inactivation and the complexities of silencing a sex chromosome. Curr. Opin. Cell Biol. 21, 359-366.

      Dahlet, T., Argueso Lleida, A., Al Adhami, H., Dumas, M., Bender, A., Ngondo, R. P., Tanguy, M., Vallet, J., Auclair, G., Bardet, A. F., et al. (2020). Genome-wide analysis in the mouse embryo reveals the importance of DNA methylation for transcription integrity. Nat Commun 11, 3153.

      Fukuda, A., Tomikawa, J., Miura, T., Hata, K., Nakabayashi, K., Eggan, K., Akutsu, H. and Umezawa, A. (2014). The role of maternal-specific H3K9me3 modification in establishing imprinted X-chromosome inactivation and embryogenesis in mice. Nat Commun 5, 5464.

      Galupa, R. and Heard, E. (2015). X-chromosome inactivation: new insights into cis and trans regulation. Curr. Opin. Genet. Dev. 31, 57-66.

      Gontan, C., Mira-Bontenbal, H., Magaraki, A., Dupont, C., Barakat, T. S., Rentmeester, E., Demmers, J. and Gribnau, J. (2018). REX1 is the critical target of RNF12 in imprinted X chromosome inactivation in mice. Nat Commun 9, 4752.

      Guo, F., Li, L., Li, J., Wu, X., Hu, B., Zhu, P., Wen, L. and Tang, F. (2017). Single-cell multi-omics sequencing of mouse early embryos and embryonic stem cells. Cell Res. 27, 967-988.

      Heard, E., Chaumeil, J., Masui, O. and Okamoto, I. (2004). Mammalian X-chromosome inactivation: an epigenetics paradigm. Cold Spring Harb. Symp. Quant. Biol. 69, 89-102.

      Huynh, K. D. and Lee, J. T. (2005). X-chromosome inactivation: a hypothesis linking ontogeny and phylogeny. Nat. Rev. Genet. 6, 410-418.

      Inoue, K., Kohda, T., Sugimoto, M., Sado, T., Ogonuki, N., Matoba, S., Shiura, H., Ikeda, R., Mochida, K., Fujii, T., et al. (2010). Impeding Xist expression from the active X chromosome improves mouse somatic cell nuclear transfer. Science 330, 496-499.

      Liu, X. Y., Wang, C. F., Liu, W. Q., Li, J. Y., Li, C., Kou, X. C., Chen, J. Y., Zhao, Y. H., Gao, H. B., Wang, H., et al. (2016). Distinct features of H3K4me3 and H3K27me3 chromatin domains in pre-implantation embryos. Nature 537, 558-562.

      Maslov, A. Y., Lee, M., Gundry, M., Gravina, S., Strogonova, N., Tazearslan, C., Bendebury, A., Suh, Y. and Vijg, J. (2012). 5-aza-2'-deoxycytidine-induced genome rearrangements are mediated by DNMT1. Oncogene 31, 5172-5179.

      Oka, M., Meacham, A. M., Hamazaki, T., Rodic, N., Chang, L. J. and Terada, N. (2005). De novo DNA methyltransferases Dnmt3a and Dnmt3b primarily mediate the cytotoxic effect of 5-aza-2'-deoxycytidine. Oncogene 24, 3091-3099.

      Okano, M., Bell, D. W., Haber, D. A. and Li, E. (1999). DNA methyltransferases Dnmt3a and Dnmt3b are essential for de novo methylation and mammalian development. Cell 99, 247-257.

      Schulz, E. G. and Heard, E. (2013). Role and control of X chromosome dosage in mammalian development. Curr. Opin. Genet. Dev. 23, 109-115.

      Smith, Z. D., Chan, M. M., Mikkelsen, T. S., Gu, H. C., Gnirke, A., Regev, A. and Meissner, A. (2012). A unique regulatory phase of DNA methylation in the early mammalian embryo. Nature 484, 339-344.

      Tan, K., An, L., Miao, K., Ren, L., Hou, Z., Tao, L., Zhang, Z., Wang, X., Xia, W., Liu, J., et al. (2016). Impaired imprinted X chromosome inactivation is responsible for the skewed sex ratio following in vitro fertilization. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. U. S. A. 113, 3197-3202.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Title

      It would be hard to understand what "co"-regulates means. Does this mean DNA methylation and H3K27me3 co-regulate imprinted X- X-chromosome inactivation? If so, the title can be reworded.

      Thanks for your insightful comments, the title has been corrected into “A wave of minor de novo DNA methylation initiates in mouse 8-cell embryos and co-regulates imprinted X- chromosome inactivation with H3K27me3” (Line 2 in the revised manuscript).

      Text

      (1) As DNA methylation analysis is a primary part of this study, how they processed DNA methylation data can be added to the "Bioinformatics analysis" in the MATERIALS AND METHODS section.

      Thanks for your kind reminder. We have added relevant information in the Materials and methods section in the revised manuscript (Lines 462-474 in the revised manuscript).

      (2) It seems that recent literature has not been cited in the manuscript. Specifically, none of the papers after 2018 were cited. Recent relevant papers should also be cited throughout the manuscript.

      Thanks so much for your reminder. We have added more recent literature to update the relevant information, such as the evidence supporting the causal role between DNA methylation and XCI (Lines 225-228, 264-265 in the revised manuscript); the concurrent enrichment of DNA methylation and H3K27me3 in genes subject to XCI (Lines 301-303 in the revised manuscript); the dominant role of de novo methylation in X chromosome (Lines 253-256 in the revised manuscript), etc.

      (3) Line 56: The first report that describes the dynamics of DNMT3B expression in pre-implantation embryonic development (Hirasawa et al., 2007) is missing. This paper should be cited.

      Sorry for our carelessness, we have added relevant references and rewritten the sentence in the revised manuscript (Lines 56-57 in the revised manuscript). I think you meant the report by Hirasawa et al in 2008, in which presented expression and subcellular localization of Dnmt3a and Dnmt3b in mouse oocytes and preimplantation embryos.

      (4) Line 98: It would be good to mention that the data were derived from reduced representation bisulfite sequencing as the authors used whole-genome bisulfite sequencing data from the same research group as well.

      Thanks for your kind reminder. As you have suggested, we have added the description in the revised manuscript to emphasize that these data were derived from reduced representation bisulfite sequencing, while another data were derived from whole-genome bisulfite sequencing, respectively. (Lines 98-99, 111 in the revised manuscript).

      (5) Line 101: We first... "the preferential target of DNMT3B (Auclair et al., 2014; Borgel et al., 2010)". More recent literature (Baubec et al., 2016, Duymich et al., 2016, for example) showed that the preferential target of DNMT3B is not a promoter but a gene body. This sentence should be reworded.

      Thanks so much for your detailed reminder. As you have pointed out, “preferential target” seems to be an inaccurate statement. Besides of promoters, gene bodies and other elements also undergo de novo DNA methylation (Auclair et al., 2014; Dahlet et al., 2020; Duymich et al., 2016).

      We have rewritten the sentence as follows in the revised manuscript: “Promoter regions are important target sites of DNMT3B (Choi et al., 2011). The acquisition of DNA methylation in promoters, especially in intermediate and low CpG promoters, during implantation is largely dependent on DNMT3B and plays an important role in regulating developmental genes (Auclair et al., 2014; Borgel et al., 2010; Dahlet et al., 2020). Thus, among genomic regions that may undergo de novo DNA methylation, we initially focused our analysis on DNA methylation dynamics of promoters...” (Lines 100-106 in the revised manuscript)

      (6) Lines 108-109: It would be good to mention that these data were derived from whole-genome bisulfite sequencing.

      Thanks for your kind reminder. As aforementioned, we have added a description in the revised manuscript to distinguish between data derived from reduced representation bisulfite sequencing and whole-genome bisulfite sequencing (Lines 98-99, 111 in the revised manuscript).

      (7) Line 141: rXCI should be defined.

      Thanks for your kind reminder. We have added full descriptions and more necessary information about iXCI and rXCI, to make our statements clearer and easier to be understood (Lines 210-213 in the revised manuscript). In addition, we carefully checked the relevant descriptions throughout the manuscript, and each abbreviation (such as “ICM”) has been defined at its first occurrence. Additionally, we have replaced abbreviations that appears only once in the manuscript with their full terms (Lines 122, 212 in the revised manuscript).

      (8) Lines 145-149: The role of DNA methylation for imprinted X-inactivation has already been reported (Chiba et al., 2008). The relevant sentences should be reworded.

      Thanks so much for reminding us the important earlier literature that explores the relationship between DNA methylation and XCI. However, the primary aim and hypothesis of the study by Chiba et al. are different from those of our study. Chiba et al focused on whether DNA methylation is the imprinting mark responsible for monoallelic expression of Xist (the initiation event of iXCI), while our study focused on the role of DNA methylation in achieving X chromosomal heterochromatinization (the late event of iXCI).

      In detail, the study by Chiba et al. mainly focused on exploring why Xist is specifically expressed from paternal allele and iXCI occurs specifically on the paternal X chromosome in mouse preimplantation embryos. Because Previous studies have suggested that genomic imprinting of Xist is established during oogenesis (Oikawa et al., 2014; Tada et al., 2000), Chiba et al. wanted to test whether the DNA methylation imprinting established during oogenesis is responsible for the monoallelic expression of Xist in preimpantaiton embryos. Analyses of DNA methyltransferase maternal knockout embryos revealed that oocyte DNA methylation is dispensable for Xist imprinting (Chiba et al., 2008). Follow-up study by Inoue et al. identified a broad H3K27me3 enrichment within the Xist 5’region established during oocyte growth and persists through preimplantation development, as the imprinting mark of Xist (Inoue et al., 2017). These series of studies are very important and allows us to understand the mechanism underlying paternal allele-specific iXCI in mouse preimplantation embryos and extraembryonic tissues.

      However, the hypothesis is different in our study. Based on the finding of minor de novo DNA methylation and its preferential distribution on the X chromosome, we have speculated that the minor de novo methylation, which occurs from the 8-cell to blastocyst stage, may participate in achieving X chromosomal heterochromatinization. Although DNA methylation is essential for maintaining X chromosome-wide transcriptional silence of rXCI, its role in iXCI remains controversial and it is even plausibly thought that DNA methylation is not required for achieving iXCI because preimplantation embryos undergo global and massive DNA demethylation.

      We have reorganized this paragraph, relevant statements have been added to make the background and discussion clearer and easier to be understood. (Lines 217-234 in the revised manuscript)

      (9) Lines 164-165: Information regarding Dnmt3b KO is missing. Did the authors generate an original KO line or use an already published one? It should be explicitly stated.

      Thank you so much for your kind reminder. The Dnmt3b heterozygous mice were obtained from the Mutant Mouse Resource & Research Centers (MMRRC), and Dnmt3b knockout (KO) embryos were generated by mating Dnmt3b heterozygous females with heterozygous males. The genotyping of Dnmt3b KO embryos was performed by PCR following the MMRRC genotyping protocol (https://www.med.unc.edu/mmrrc/genotyping-protocols/mmrrc-center-protocol-29886/). The relevant information has been added to the MATERIALS AND METHODS section in the revised manuscript (Lines 350-354; 391-393 in the revised manuscript).

      (10) Line 165: chemical-induced inhibition of DNMT3B. As 5-aza-dC also blocks DNMT3A and DNMT1, this sentence should be reworded.

      Thank you for your valuable comments. 5-aza-dC is a well-established global DNA hypomethylating agent that efficiently inhibit the activity of all DNMTs, and has been frequently used to study the maintenance of DNA methylation and de novo DNA methylation (Maslov et al., 2012; Oka et al., 2005). Thus, despite its inhibitory effect common to various DNMTs, chemical-induced inhibition of DNMTs has the advantage of allowing us to transiently treated embryos specifically during the window of minor de novo DNA methylation (the 8-cell to blastocyst stage). We have rewritten the relevant sentences in the revised manuscript (Lines 183-188 in the revised manuscript).

      (11) Lines 171-174: "The role of de novo methylation in iXCI...". This possibility was already tested in the previous study from the Sasaki lab (Chiba et al., 2008).

      As mentioned above, the primary aim and hypothesis of the study by Chiba et al. are different from those of our study. Chiba et al. mainly focused on exploring why Xist is specifically expressed from paternal allele and iXCI occurs specifically on the paternal X chromosome in mouse preimplantation embryos, so they tested whether the DNA methylation imprinting established during oogenesis is responsible for this monoallelic expression of Xist in preimplantation embryos (the initiation event of iXCI).

      By contrast, based on the finding of minor de novo DNA methylation and its preferential distribution on X chromosome, our study has speculated that the minor de novo DNA methylation, which occurs from the 8-cell to blastocyst stage, may participate in achieving X chromosomal heterochromatinization (the late event of iXCI).

      Thanks so much for reminding us this important literature, to make our discussion more informative. We have reorganized this paragraph by rewriting or adding relevant statements to make the background and discussion clearer and easier to be understood (Lines 217-231 in the revised manuscript). In addition, to avoid repeated statement and make our discussion more concise, we have removed the similar sentences at the end of this paragraph.

      (12) Lines 198-200: "Given DNA methylation...". These citations mention a general relationship between DNA methylation and H3K27me3 in cells in culture. As I believe the authors focus on X-chromosome inactivation in the female embryos, more relevant papers that discuss the order of the events for the establishment of H3K27me3 and DNA methylation in the inactive X-chromosome can be cited.

      Thanks so much for your comment to improve our discussion. It has been thought that during the late phase of rXCI in fully differentiated cells, gene silencing is achieved by PRC2 complex-induced H3K27me3, and then is further stably maintained by the redundant action of multiple layers of epigenetic modifications, including DNA methylation, to reach the maximum level of chromatin compaction (Chow and Heard, 2009; Heard et al., 2004; Pintacuda and Cerase, 2015). In line with this, a recent multifaceted analysis showed that DNA methylation and H3K27me3 are concurrently enriched in genes subject to XCI (Balaton and Brown, 2021). We have added these statements in the revised manuscript (Lines 295-303 in the revised manuscript).

      (13) Line 241: As 5-aza-dC blocks both de novo and maintenance DNA methylation, this sentence should be reworded.

      Thank you for your kind reminder. As you have mentioned above, 5-aza-dC is a well-established global DNA hypomethylating agent that efficiently inhibit the activity of all DNMTs, and has been frequently used to study the maintenance of DNA methylation and de novo DNA methylation (Maslov et al., 2012; Oka et al., 2005). Thus, despite its inhibitory effect common to various DNMTs, chemical-induced inhibition of DNMTs has the advantage of allowing us to transiently treated embryos specifically during the window of minor de novo DNA methylation (the 8-cell to blastocyst stage). We have rewritten the relevant sentences in the revised manuscript (Lines 183-188 in the revised manuscript).

      Figures

      (1) Figure 1C, D: Do the rows in C and D show the corresponding genes?

      Figure 1C and D represent the DNA methylation changes of promoters (C) and gene bodies (D) respectively, during the transition from the 8-cell to blastocyst stage. Two data were analyzed independently, and rows did not show the corresponding genes. Since we have focused on the minor de novo methylation in promoter regions, to avoid confusion, the results of the gene body have been removed from the revised manuscript.

      (2) Figure 1G: Yy2 promoter gained DNA methylation during the transition from 8-cell to the blastocyst stage. Is this a representative locus for the de novo methylated promoters that are shown in Figure 1F where an increase of DNA methylation is about ~1% on average? Another representative locus could be shown instead of this gene promoter.

      Thanks so much for you detailed reminder. The inconsistency between the global methylation change and bisulfite sequencing analysis of Yy2, may be due to the details of methodologies, such C-T conversion efficiency, the number of picked colonies, etc. Since we have confirmed the presence of minor de novo DNA methylation using different publicly available data, to avoid ambiguity, we have removed this result in revised manuscript.

      (3) Figures 2C and 3A: It would be helpful to mention what the arrowheads mean.

      Thanks so much for you detailed reminder. In Figure 2C, the arrowhead indicates the H3k27me3 domain and the blank arrowhead indicates the blastomere without the H3k27me3 domain. In Figure 3A, the arrowhead indicates Xist RNA domain and the blank arrowhead indicates the blastomere without Xist RNA domain. We have added the information in the revised manuscript (Lines 736-738, 747-749 in the revised manuscript).

      (4) Figure 3-figure supplement 2B: It would be hard to see whether H3K27me3 is enriched at the promoter regions of presented genes. It would be helpful to show the values for the Y-axis as in panel A.

      Thanks for your helpful reminder. We have added the scales to the figure to improve the result presentation (Figure 4—figure supplement 2B in the revised manuscript).

      (5) Figure 4-figure supplement 2: 5-aza-dC blocks not only the activity of DNMT3B but also DNMT1, and DNMT3A (all these DNMTs are expressed during pre-implantation embryos, see Hirasawa et al., 2007). This part can be omitted from the manuscript.

      Thanks for your insightful comments. As you have mentioned above, the relevance and rationale for experiments using 5-aza-dC treatment should be clarified. 5-aza-dC is a well-established global DNA hypomethylating agent that efficiently inhibit the activity of all DNMTs, and thus has been frequently used to study the maintenance of DNA methylation and de novo DNA methylation (Maslov et al., 2012; Oka et al., 2005).

      In our study, to validate the function of minor de novo DNA methylation in iXCI and blastocyst development, we take advantage of 5-aza-dC-induced DNMT inhibition, which allows us to transiently treated embryos specifically during the window of minor de novo DNA methylation (the 8-cell to blastocyst stage), despite its non-specificity to various DNMTs.

      Based on these considerations, we hope to retain this result, and wish to get your understanding.

      We have added these statements in the revised manuscript to make our experiments more rational and easier to be understood (Lines 183-188 in the revised manuscript) and added a schematic diagram depicting the experimental design (Figure 3—figure supplement 3E in the revised manuscript).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Recommendations/concerns in the text:

      - Line 106, it is unclear what is meant by "in line with this"? Gene body DNA methylation is a characteristic of active transcription, so why would a gain in DNA methylation at promoters be in line with a gain in DNA methylation over gene bodies?

      Thank you so much for your comments that pointed out our ambiguous statement. We meant both the promoter and gene body regions, albeit accounting for small proportions, gain DNA methylation during the transition from the 8-cell to blastocyst stage. Based on the comment by Reviewer#1, since we have focused on the minor de novo methylation in promoter regions, to avoid confusion, the results of the gene body have been removed from the revised manuscript.

      - Line 111 & 114, can 6% DNA methylation really be considered "relatively hypermethylated" compared to 3% DNA methylation that is referred to as "more hypomethylated"?

      We apologize for our unclear and ambiguous statements. Here we focused on the promoter regions. Many previous studies have revealed that compared with gene bodies and other genome elements, promoter and overlapping CGI regions, especially high CpG promoters, always showed low levels of DNA methylation. We have added relevant statements to clarify this information, and rewritten the sentences in the revised manuscript (Lines 100-106, 116-118, 121, 124 in the revised manuscript).

      - Line 124, there are a number of processes identified, why only mention one in the text? Suggest changing writing to be more accurate, indicating what was included for the GO analysis and using the words "enriched for ... processes". Saying it may be linked to a process is an overstatement and not supported by further experiments/data.

      Thank you so much for your detailed comments that make our results more informative. We have checked the relevant description and addressed your suggestions as follows: By performing gene ontology enrichment analysis of genes that undergo minor or major de novo DNA methylation respectively, we noticed that besides of many important basic processes common to two waves of de novo DNA methylation, genes subject to minor de novo DNA methylation were enriched in processes such as organic substance transport, chromosome organization, and cell fate specification (Lines 129-134 in the revised manuscript).

      - Lines 149 - 152: sentence/message unclear.

      We apologize for the ambiguous description. We have corrected the relevant descriptions as follows: To identify the biological function of minor de novo DNA methylation in iXCI, we knocked down Dnmt3b in preimplantation embryos by microinjecting Dnmt3b siRNA into zygotes (Lines 234-236 in the revised manuscript).

      - Lines 162-164: the data in Figure 2C/D does not support this statement, as it does not show H3K27me3 loss specifically at the inactive X-chromosome.

      Thanks so much for your insightful comments. Despite the global enrichment of H3K27me3, the H3K27me3 domain detected by immunostaining is a classic marker for establishment of XCI by achieving X chromosome wide heterochromatinization of transcriptional depression (Chow and Heard, 2009; Heard et al., 2004; Huynh and Lee, 2005). Thus, we have used immunostaining for H3K27me3 domains to evaluate the iXCI establishment in the blastocysts, as previously reported (Fukuda et al., 2014; Gontan et al., 2018; Inoue et al., 2010; Tan et al., 2016). To make our results more convincing, we have added another statistical method to quantify the establishment of iXCI, i.e., the percentage of H3K27me3-positive and -negative trophoblast cells to total trophoblast cells in female blastocysts subject to Dnmt3b knockdown or not.

      In addition, we have added a schematic diagram depicting the process of iXCI initiation and establishment, as well as the experimental design and work flows, to make the result easier to be understood.

      In addition, we agree with your comments that additional evidence will benefit the conclusion. To strengthen the evidence, and test whether DNA methylation loss leads to a prolonged effect on iXCI, we have reanalyzed the RNA-seq and H3K27me3 CHIP-seq data in extraembryonic ectoderm (ExE) of E6.5 single embryos that underwent Dnm3a/3b knockout because preimplantation iXCI status maintains extraembryonic cells (Chen et al., 2019; Galupa and Heard, 2015; Schulz and Heard, 2013). The results showed that chromosome-wide loss of DNA methylation led to a nearly complete loss of H3k27me3 on paternal (specifically inactivated in iXCI), along with a notable transcriptional upregulation cross the chromosome. By contrast, these changes cannot be not observed on maternal X chromosome. (Lines 253-261; Figure 3—figure supplement 4A in the revised manuscript)

      - Lines 169-174: sentence/message unclear.

      As aforementioned, we have reorganized this paragraph by rewriting or adding relevant statements relevant to the DNA methylation and XCI, to make the background and discussion clearer and easier to be understood (Lines 217-234 in the revised manuscript). In addition, to avoid repeated statement and make our discussion more concise, we have removed the similar sentences at the end of this paragraph.

      - Lines 177-179: this statement is too bold. The data does not support "direct evidence".

      Thank you for your detailed reminder. We have rewritten the sentence to avoid confusion and overstatement (Lines 262-268 in the revised manuscript).

      - Line 198: these are not all enzymes, but could be referred to as chromatin modifiers.

      We apologize for the ambiguous description. As you suggested, we have corrected “enzymes” to “chromatin modifiers” (Lines 284, 287 in the revised manuscript).

      - Line 199: this statement is not correct in all contexts. There are many studies showing antagonism between DNA methylation and H3K27me3.

      Thanks so much for you careful reviewing. As you have pointed out, the relationship of DNA methylation and H3K27me3 are divergent and largely controversial among studies. Under certain circumstances, DNA methylation shows antagonistic effect to H3K27me3 at promoters, via excluding the binding of PRC2 (the main complex responsible for H3K27me3 deposition) components to their targets (Bartke et al., 2010; Jermann et al., 2014), while other studies have presented alternative evidence that PRC2 (the main complex responsible for H3K27me3 deposition) and DNA methylation cooperate to achieve silencing (Hagarman et al., 2013; Vire et al., 2006). Thus, it has been thought that the relationship between DNA and methylation and histone modifications is complex, possibly in a cell-type and/or genomic region-specific manner. Both antagonism and coordination can be observed in different regulatory elements in mouse ES cells (King et al., 2016).

      We apologize our incomplete statement because we mainly focused on their synergistic relationship. We have refined this section by rewriting relevant sentences and adding necessary statements (Lines 288-303 in the revised manuscript).

      - Lines 228-230: the developmental significance of DNA methylation homeostasis is already well-established. Please reference relevant papers showing this here.

      Thank you for this helpful suggestion. We have reorganized this section. Relevant references that highlight the developmental significance of DNA methylation homeostasis have added. The sentence has been rewritten and moved to the end of this paragraph, in the revised manuscript (Lines 159-161 in the revised manuscript).

      - Line 238: an explanation/rationale for looking at energy metabolism is lacking.

      Thank you for your comments to make our results earlier to be understood. The detection of energy metabolism is mainly based on the integrated analysis of DNA methylation and gene expression from the 8-cell embryos to ICM, to test the potential short-and long-term developmental consequences of minor de novo DNA methylation. Bioinformatic analysis suggested that many basic processes, such as cell differentiation, cell cycle and metabolic regulation, may be regulated by minor de novo DNA methylation. Among the enriched genes, several are related energy metabolism. In addition, because energy metabolism is crucial for supporting embryo differentiation and development, and oxidative phosphorylation (OXPHOS) metabolism is highly activated during the blastocyst stage (Zhao et al., 2021), we next examined the energy metabolism, particularly OXPHOS activity, of Dnmt3b-KD embryos. We have refined the section by rewritten relevant sentence and added necessary statements (Lines 175-179 in the revised manuscript).

      - Lines 246-248: Looking at the data in Figure 2 figure supplement 2, this statement is simply not true with regards to DNMT3B protein, and also global DNA methylation level is reduced in the Dnmt3b KD blastocyst, which could lead to defective major de novo DNA methylation.

      Thanks for your careful reviewing, we have rewritten the sentence to make our statement more accurate and avoid overstatement (Lines 188-190 in the revised manuscript).

      Recommendations/concerns relating to figures:

      Figure 1:

      - Of all genic promoters, how many were included in the analysis (contained sufficient coverage)? What cut-off/thresholds were used to consider DNA methylation gain at a promoter?

      Thanks for your comments. In total, 11662 promoters were analyzed. Given that promoter methylation is generally at low level, particularly at the 8-cell stage at which minor de novo methylation is just initiated. The relatively lower basal levels make the increase before the blastocyst, seem considerably slight. To capture the slight changes, we have used the relaxed threshold based on ΔDNA methylation. Only CpG sites with at least fivefold coverage were included in the methylation analysis based on data from Smith et al. (Smith et al., 2012)., ΔDNA methylation greater or less than 0 was defined as gain or loss of DNA methylation. We have added this information in the revised manuscript (Lines 462-470 in the revised manuscript).

      - Does an average methylation level of 0.02 represent 2% DNA methylation? Presuming yes, is the average 1.5% DNA methylation gain at promoters real? And meaningful? Especially compared to the gain in DNA methylation that takes place between ICM and E6.5 (Figure 1 Figure Supplement 1 D)

      As you have pointed out, an average methylation level of 0.02 represent 2% DNA methylation. As aforementioned, promoters exhibited an average of 1.5% DNA methylation gain during the transition from 8-cell stage to ICM. The slight increase may be mainly due to the relatively lower basal levels. As you expected, compared with the comprehensive de novo DNA methylation during implantation, preimplantation de novo methylation occurs more slightly, at a small proportion of promoter regions, so designated it as minor de novo DNA methylation. It should be also mentioned that a proportion of these promoters continue to gain massive DNA methylation during implantation. We have refined the relevant sentences to provide more detailed information of our results (Lines 125-127 in the revised manuscript).

      - Why is there a focus on promoters (which are not the preferential target of DNMT3B)?

      Thanks so much for your detailed reminder. As you have pointed out, “preferential target” seems to be an inaccurate statement. besides of promoters, gene bodies and other elements also undergo de novo DNA methylation (Auclair et al., 2014; Dahlet et al., 2020; Duymich et al., 2016). We have focused on the promoter regions based on the following considerations: (1) Promoter regions are important target sites of DNMT3B (Choi et al., 2011); (2) The acquisition of DNA methylation in promoters, especially in intermediate and low CpG promoters, during implantation is largely dependent on DNMT3B and plays an important role in regulating developmental genes (Auclair et al., 2014; Borgel et al., 2010; Dahlet et al., 2020). We have rewritten the relevant sentence in the revised manuscript (Lines 100-106 in the revised manuscript).

      - Figure 1H shows that promoters that gain DNA methylation during the "minor de novo DNA methylation" continue to gain DNA methylation during "de novo DNA methylation". Is the ~1.5% DNA methylation gain just the slow start of the main de novo DNA methylation wave?

      Your comments is very helpful to improve the description of our results. In the present study, our analysis indicated that a small proportion of promoters initially gain methylation during the transition from the 8-cell to ICM. The finding challenges current knowledge: (1) de novo DNA methylation occurs during implantation, by which globally hypomethylated blastocysts acquire genome-wide DNA methylation (Borgel et al., 2010; Dahlet et al., 2020; Smith et al., 2012); (2) during preimplantation development, embryos undergo massive and global DNA demethylation.

      To distinguish the current knowledge of the timing and dynamics of DNA methylation during the early development, we have designated our finding during the transition from the 8-cell to blastocyst stage, as minor de novo DNA methylation.

      We agree with your notion that among the promoters undergoing minor de novo methylation, most of them continue to gain DNA methylation during implantation, as revealed in Fig. 1F. We have added refine the relevant statement in revised manuscript (Lines 125-127 in the revised manuscript).

      - The GO analysis performed for Figure 1H, what was used as input? Promoters of genes that gain DNA methylation as identified in 1C?

      Thank you for your comments. For the GO analysis shown in Figure 1H, we used genes with promoter regions that gained or lost DNA methylation during the transition from the 8-cell to ICM respectively (identified in Figure 1C, as input), respectively. This information has been clarified in the revised manuscript to ensure accuracy (Lines 129-134 in the revised manuscript).

      - Figure 1 figure supplement 1, is there only a fold change as threshold or also a calculated significance (eg. p-value/FDR)?

      Thanks for your valuable comments. Considering the relatively low DNA methylation levels at promoter regions, and the slightly changes occurring during the preimplantation embryo development, we used the relaxed threshold based on ΔDNA methylation. Only CpG sites with at least fivefold coverage were included in the methylation analysis based on data from Smith et al. (Smith et al., 2012), ΔDNA methylation greater or less than 0 was defined as gain or loss of DNA methylation. We have replaced relevant figures and added this information in the revised manuscript (Figure 1—figure supplement 1D-E; Lines 125-127 in the revised manuscript).

      - To confirm DNMT3B is responsible for the DNA methylation gain: DNMT3B KD/KO followed by promoter DNA methylation analysis to confirm the promoters that gain DNA methylation between 8 cell and ICM don't gain DNA methylation in the absence of DNMT3B.

      We agree with your comments that additional evidence will benefit the conclusion. To strengthen the evidence, we have reanalyzed the RNA-seq and H3K27me3 CHIP-seq data in extraembryonic ectoderm (ExE) of E6.5 single embryos that underwent Dnm3a/3b knockout because preimplantation iXCI status maintains extraembryonic cells (Chen et al., 2019; Galupa and Heard, 2015; Schulz and Heard, 2013). The results showed that chromosome-wide loss of DNA methylation led to a nearly complete loss of H3k27me3 on paternal (specifically inactivated in iXCI), which showed a notable transcriptional upregulation cross the chromosome. By contrast, these changes cannot be not observed on maternal X chromosome. We have added this result in the revised manuscript (Lines 253-261; Figure 3—figure supplement 4A in the revised manuscript).

      Figure 2:

      - Figure 2A: label missing for what the numbers on the y-axis represent.

      Thank you for pointing this out. We apologize for the oversight. We have added the label of y-axis in Figure 2A to clarify what the numbers represent, making it easier to be understood (Figure 3A in the revised manuscript).

      - Figure 2B: y-axis is % of methylated promoters compared to all promoters?

      Thank you for your suggestion. The y-axis in Figure 2B indeed represents the percentage of de novo methylated promoters relative to all promoters. As you have suggested, we have clarified this labeling in the revised manuscript (Figure 3B in the revised manuscript).

      - What is the delta DNA methylation gain specifically for X-linked promoters?

      Thanks so much for your reminder. To provide more convincing evidence. We have reanalyzed a single cell COOL-seq data, we also specifically reanalyzed the DNA methylation changes on the X chromosomal promoter in female embryos. The X chromosome showed a more notable increase in the de novo methylated promoters than that on autosomes, and the female X chromosome showed higher DNA methylation levels than that of the male (Figure 3—figure supplement 2A-B; Lines 203-206 in the revised manuscript).

      - Figure 2C: include representative images of separate channels to better see the signal of CDX2 and H3K27me3. Quantification would be better represented with box plots.

      Thank you for your helpful suggestions. We have added separate channel images in the revised manuscript. Additionally, we have adjusted the quantification to be represented as box plots, as you have suggested, to improve the accuracy and interpretability of the data presentation (Figure 3D-F in the revised manuscript).

      - Figure 2C: Does the H3K27me3 signal overlap with the location of the inactive X-chromosome (is there maybe denser DAPI or do IF combined with Xist RNA-FISH)?

      Thanks so much for your insightful comments. Despite the global enrichment of H3K27me3, the H3K27me3 domain detected by immunostaining is a classic marker for establishment of XCI by achieving X chromosome wide heterochromatinization of transcriptional depression (Chow and Heard, 2009; Heard et al., 2004; Huynh and Lee, 2005). Thus, we have used immunostaining for H3K27me3 domains to evaluate the iXCI establishment in the blastocysts, as previously reported (Fukuda et al., 2014; Gontan et al., 2018; Inoue et al., 2010; Tan et al., 2016). We have taken effort to perform co-staining of H3K27me3 IF and Xist FISH, but was hindered by the technical challenge, we wish to get your understanding. However, as we aforementioned, H3K27me3 is a well-accepted maker to clarify the XCI status.

      In addition, to make our results more convincing, we have added an alternative statistical method to quantify the establishment of iXCI, i.e., the percentage of H3K27me3-positive and -negative trophoblast cells to total trophoblast cells in female blastocysts subject to Dnmt3b knockdown or not (Figure 3F; Lines 243-244 in the revised manuscript)

      - Figure 2 figure supplement 2A: relative expression of Dnmt3b?

      Thanks for your detailed reminder. The data represent the relative expression level of Dnmt3b, as noted in the original figure legend. Based on your comments, we have added the gene name in the label of the Y-axis. Similarly, the protein name has been also added to make the results more informative (Figure 2 figure supplement 2A, C, E in the revised manuscript).

      - Figure 2 figure supplement 2B/C: in the text, line 153, it is stated that "Dnmt3b mRNA and protein levels were significantly reduced in morulae, but not in blastocysts compared to those of negative control (NC) group". These figures do not support that statement. The IF images show a loss of DNMT3B in the Dnmt3b KD blastocysts. The IF quantification seems to have fewer datapoints for the blastocyst, and looking at the bar graphs, there seems to be a trend towards reduced DNMT3B in both the morula and blastocyst, which would also explain the reduction in DNA methylation in both stages as shown in Figure 2 figure supplement 2D/E.

      Thanks so much for your careful reviewing that makes our statements more accurate. We have rewritten the sentence in the revised manuscript as follows: Dnmt3b mRNA and protein levels were significantly reduced in morulae, and tended to be lower in blastocysts compared to those of the negative control (NC) group. In addition, we have removed “transient” from the original statement “The transient inhibition of Dnmt3b” (Lines 168-170 in the revised manuscript).

      - Figure 2 figure supplement 2F/G: include representative IF images with separation of all channels and the merged image.

      Thank you for your suggestion. We have added the representative immunofluorescence (IF) images with separate channels and merged image in the revised manuscript (Figure 3—figure supplement 3B, F in the revised manuscript).

      - Figure 2 figure supplement 2H: Instead of showing log2FC in methylation levels, delta methylation would be more informative. Are these genes already inactivated at the 8-cell stage? Or are they active and become inactivated by the gain in DNA methylation? Doing qPCR for these genes, or looking at published RNAseq data would be informative. What happens to the expression of these genes in the Dnmt3b KD?

      Thanks for your suggestions. We have represented DNA methylation changes as “ΔDNA methylation”. During mouse preimplantation development, iXCI is initiated in earlier cleavage female embryos dependent on Xist upregulation around 4-8-cell stage, and then Xist specifically coats paternal X chromosome and finally leads to chromosome-wide silencing via heterochromatinization in early blastocysts. Thus, these non-escaping genes, which are subject to XCI, would not be inactivated at 8-cell stage

      Author response image 1.

      The processes of iXCI initiation and establishment (left panel), and dynamics of total expression levels of X chromosome in male and female preimplantation embryos (right panel, note that X-dosage is balanced between sexes until the early blastocyst stage).

      As you expected, most of these representative non-escaping is downregulated upon the transition of 8-cell to blastocyst stage, consistent with their gain of DNA methylation. Additionally, since preimplantation iXCI status maintains extraembryonic cells (Galupa and Heard, 2015; Schulz and Heard, 2013), we further reanalyzed the published RNA-seq data in extraembryonic ectoderm (ExE) of E6.5 single embryos that underwent DNA methyltransferase knockout (Chen et al., 2019). The results showed that chromosome-wide loss of DNA methylation led to a chromosome-wide transcriptional upregulation, including the locus of these non-escaping genes, on paternal X chromosome. We have added this result in the revised manuscript (Figure 3—figure supplement 3J; Figure 3—figure supplement 4A-B; Lines 253-261 in the revised manuscript).

      Figure 3:

      - Figure 3 figure supplement 1: representative IF image missing.

      Thanks for your kind reminder. We have added the representative IF images in the revised manuscript to provide a clearer illustration of the data (Figure 4—figure supplement 1A in the revised manuscript).

      - Figure 3 figure supplement 2B: scales are missing for the H3K27me3 ChIP-seq data (are the 8-cell and ICM tracks set to the same scale?). It looks like the ICM track is cut off at the top (peaks not fully displayed) and the data looks very sparse. A more informative analysis would be to do peak calling over promoters and compare 8-cell with ICM.

      Thanks for your detailed reminder. We apologize for the missing of scale bars in the H3K27me3 ChIP-seq data. The 8-cell and ICM tracks were set to the same scale, and we have now added scales to the figure in the revised manuscript to improve the result presentation. As you have speculated, the visual effect of the flatted peak is not caused by track cutting off, but rather by zooming into a specific region in the extended IGV files.

      These results are based on the reanalysis of publicly available data of pooled embryos, which just provided suggestive but not direct evidence to support the role of DNA methylation in promoting X-linked H3K27me3 enrichment in iXCI.

      To provide more convincing evidence. we have reanalyzed the RNA-seq and H3K27me3 CHIP-seq data in extraembryonic ectoderm (ExE) of E6.5 female embryos that underwent Dnmt3a/3b knockout because preimplantation iXCI status maintains extraembryonic cells (Chen et al., 2019; Galupa and Heard, 2015; Schulz and Heard, 2013). The results showed that Dnmt knockout led to a nearly complete loss of H3k27me3 on paternal (specifically inactivated in iXCI), which showed a notable transcriptional upregulation cross the chromosome. By contrast, these changes cannot be not observed on maternal X chromosome (Figure 3—figure supplement 4 in the revised manuscript). We have added these results in the revised manuscript.

      - Figure 3E: Given all tested proteins give a positive signal, it would have been good to include a negative control chromatin protein that is known to not interact with DNMT3B. Given both PRC2 and DNMT3B are chromatin-binding proteins, can the signal be a result of close proximity instead of a direct interaction?

      In the present study, to test the interaction between DNMT3B and PRC2 core components, we have used in situ proximity ligation assay (PLA), an increasingly popular technique for detecting the close proximity of two proteins in fixed samples using two primary antibodies (Alsemarz et al., 2018).

      Author response image 2.

      Schematic diagram of the principle of the in situ PLA.

      Compared with classical co-Immunoprecipitation (Co-IP) method, in situ PLA has advantages in (1) detecting low input samples or proteins expressed at low levels, which is extremely difficult using Co-IP; (2) providing in situ or subcellular information of protein-protein interaction. However, it should be noted that the maximal distance allowing this reaction is 40 nm, which is not quite small enough to demonstrate a physical interaction between the two antigens, but sufficient to support a very close “proximity”.

      In our study, in situ PLA, including the experimental design of negative control, was performed in the accordance with the manufacturer’s instruction of Duolink® In Situ Red Starter Kit (MilliporeSigma): “Technical negative controls included incubation with each primary antibody separately and no primary antibody”. We have refined the relevant sentence in the revised manuscript (Lines 308-310 in the revised manuscript)

      - Figure 3G: It would have been good to include a negative control, and DNase/benzonase to exclude DNA/RNA-mediated protein interaction.

      - (Of note, there have been previous studies reporting an interaction between PRC2 and DNMT3B in other cell types, such as in Weigert et al. 2023, but unfortunately, they don't seem to use DNase/benzonase either).

      The Co-IP analysis of DNMT3B and PRC2 core components in differentiated female ES cells was presented as additional supportive evidence. Because the Co-IP analysis is extremely difficult for preimplantation embryos, we have used in situ PLA to detect their interaction. However, the maximal distance allowing in situ PLA reaction is 40 nm, which is not quite small enough to demonstrate a physical interaction (Alsemarz et al., 2018). Thus, we have added a Co-IP analysis using differentiated female ES cells, in which rXCI occurs upon the differentiation.

      Based on this consideration of the importance and contribution of this result, we have moved this result from the main figure, to the supplemental figure (Figure 4—figure supplement 3H in the revised manuscript).

      - Figure 3 figure supplement 3G: what were the ESCs differentiated into? Did the Dnmt3b KO or Dnmt3a/b DKO show any differentiation defect?

      The mouse ESC line PGK12.1 was a well-established ex vivo model of rXCI. Under the standard culture condition, PGK12.1 is normally fated to neuroectodermal commitment.

      Author response image 3.

      Immunostaining of NESTIN, a neuroectodermal stem cell marker molecule, and NANOG in undifferentiated and differentiated PGK12.1 ESCs respectively.

      No differentiation defects have been observed in either Dnmt3b KO or Dnmt3a/3b DKO ESCs in our study. Dnmt KO/DKO/TKO ES cell lines have been successfully used as the model of interaction of DNA methylation and H3K27me3 deposition (King et al., 2016).

      Figure 4:

      - Figure 4B: Is there an explanation for seeing similar total cell numbers in Figure 4B, but showing decreased proliferation in Figure 4A?

      Thank you for your insightful comments. The EdU cell proliferation assays labels cells during the S phase of cell cycle, as the 5-ethynyl 2´-deoxyuridine (EdU) is incorporated into newly synthesized DNA. This labeling identifies cells undergoing DNA synthesis, but these cells may not have completed mitosis at the time of detection. As a result, the total cell number may not immediately reflect the decrease in proliferation observed in the treated group. To address this point, we have rewritten the sentences in the revised manuscript (Lines 174-175 in the revised manuscript).

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      Oka, M., Meacham, A. M., Hamazaki, T., Rodic, N., Chang, L. J. and Terada, N. (2005). De novo DNA methyltransferases Dnmt3a and Dnmt3b primarily mediate the cytotoxic effect of 5-aza-2'-deoxycytidine. Oncogene 24, 3091-3099.

      Pintacuda, G. and Cerase, A. (2015). X Inactivation Lessons from Differentiating Mouse Embryonic Stem Cells. Stem Cell Rev Rep 11, 699-705.

      Schulz, E. G. and Heard, E. (2013). Role and control of X chromosome dosage in mammalian development. Curr. Opin. Genet. Dev. 23, 109-115.

      Smith, Z. D., Chan, M. M., Mikkelsen, T. S., Gu, H. C., Gnirke, A., Regev, A. and Meissner, A. (2012). A unique regulatory phase of DNA methylation in the early mammalian embryo. Nature 484, 339-344.

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1

      (1) In the "Introduction" section, an important aspect that requires attention pertains to the discussion surrounding the heterodimerization of CXCR4 and CCR5. Notably, the manuscript overlooks a recent study (https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-023-42082-z) elucidating the mechanism underlying the formation of functional dimers within these G protein-coupled receptors (GPCRs)…The inclusion of this study within the manuscript would significantly enrich the contextual framework of the work, offering readers a comprehensive understanding of the current knowledge surrounding the structural dynamics and functional implications of CXCR4 and CCR5 heterodimerization.

      We thank the reviewer for his/her recommendation to enrich the contextual framework of our study. The Nature Communications paper by Di Marino et al. was published after we sent the first version of our manuscript to eLife, and therefore was not included in the discussion. As the reviewer rightly indicates, this paper elucidates the mechanism underlying the formation of functional dimers within CCR5 and CXCR4. Using metadynamics approaches, the authors emphasize the importance of distinct transmembrane regions for dimerization of the two receptors. In particular, CXCR4 shows two low energy dimer structures and the TMVI-TMVII helices are the preferred interfaces involved in the protomer interactions in both cases. Although the study uses in silico techniques, it also includes the molecular binding mechanism of CCR5 and CXCR4 in the membrane environment, as the authors generate a model in which the receptors are immersed in a 1-palmitoyl-2-oleoyl-sn-glycero-3-phosphocholine (POPC) phospholipid bilayer with 10% cholesterol. This is an important point in this study, as membrane lipids also interact with membrane proteins, and the lipid composition affects CXCR4 oligomerization (Gardeta S.R. et al. Front. Immunol. 2023). In particular, Di Marino et al. find a cholesterol molecule placed in-between the two CXCR4 protomers where it engages a series of hydrophobic interactions with residues including Leu132, Val214, Leu216 and Phe249. Then, the polar head of cholesterol forms an H-bond with Tyr135 that further stabilizes protomer binding. In our hands, the F249L mutation in CXCR4 reverted the antagonism of AGR1.137, suggesting that the compound binds, among others, this residue. We should, nonetheless, indicate that we analyzed receptor oligomerization and not CXCR4 dimerization, which was the main object of the Di Marino et al. study. It is therefore also plausible that other residues than those described as essential for CXCR4 dimerization might participate in receptor oligomerization. We can speculate that AGR1.137 might affect cholesterol binding to CXCR4 and, therefore, alter dimerization/oligomerization. Additionally, the CXCR4 x-ray structure with PDB code 3ODU (Wu B. et al. Science, 2010) experimentally shows the presence of two fatty acid molecules in contact with both TMV and TMVI. These molecules closely interact with hydrophobic residues in the protein, thereby stabilizing it in a hydrophobic environment. Although more experiments will be needed to clarify the mechanism involved, our results suggest that cholesterol and/or other lipids also play an important role in CXCR4 oligomerization and function, as seen for other GPCRs (Jakubik J. & ElFakahani E.E. Int J Mol Sci. 2021). However, we should also consider that other factors not included in the analysis by Di Marino et al. can also affect CXCR4 oligomerization; for instance, the co-expression of other chemokine receptors and/or other GPCRs that heterodimerize with CXCR4 might affect CXCR4 dynamics at the cell membrane, similar to other membrane proteins such as CD4, which also forms complexes with CXCR4 (Martinez-Muñoz L. et al. Mol. Cell 2018).

      The revised discussion contains references to the study by Di Marino et al. to enrich the contextual framework of our data.

      (2) In "various sections" of the manuscript, there appears to be confusion surrounding the terminology used to refer to antagonists. It is recommended to provide a clearer distinction between allosteric and orthosteric antagonists to enhance reader comprehension. An orthosteric antagonist typically binds to the same site as the endogenous ligand, directly blocking its interaction with the receptor. On the other hand, an allosteric antagonist binds to a site distinct from the orthosteric site, inducing a conformational change in the receptor that inhibits the binding of the endogenous ligand. By explicitly defining the terms "allosteric antagonist" and "orthosteric antagonist" within the manuscript, readers will be better equipped to discern the specific mechanisms discussed in the context of the study.

      The behavior of the compounds described in our manuscript (AGR1.35 and AGR1.137) fits with the definition of allosteric antagonists, as they bind on a site distinct from the orthosteric site, although they only block some ligand-mediated functions and not others. This would mean that they are not formally antagonists and should be not considered as allosteric compounds, as their binding on CXCR4 does not alter CXCL12 binding, although they might affect its affinity. In this sense, our compounds respond much better to the concept of negative allosteric modulators (Gao Z.-G. & Jacobson K.A. Drug Discov. Today Technol. 2013). They act by binding on a site distinct from the orthosteric site and selectively block some downstream signaling pathways but not others induced by the same endogenous agonist.

      To avoid confusion and to clarify the role of the compounds described in this study, we now refer to them as negative allosteric modulators along the manuscript.

      (3) In the Results section, the computational approach employed for "screening small compounds targeting CXCR4, particularly focusing on the inhibition of CXCL12-induced CXCR4 nanoclustering", requires clarification due to several points of incomprehension. The following recommendations aim to address these concerns and enhance the overall clarity of the section:

      (1) Computational Approach and Binding Mode Description: 

      -Explicitly describe the methodology for identifying the pocket/clef area in angstroms (Å) on the CXCR4 protein structure. Include details on how the volume of the cleft enclosed by TMV and TMVI was determined, as this information is not readily apparent in the provided reference (https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1601278113).

      The identification of the cleft was based on the observations by Wu et al. (Wu B. et al. Science 2010) who described the presence of bound lipids in the area formed by TMV and VI, and those of Wescott et al. (Wescott M.P. et al. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. 2016) on the importance of TMVI in the transmission of conformational changes promoted by CXCL12 on CXCR4 towards the cytoplasmic surface of the receptor to link the binding site with signaling activation. Collectively, these results, and our previous data on the critical role of the N-terminus region of TMVI for CXCR4 oligomerization (Martinez-Muñoz L. et al. Mol. Cell 2018), focused our in silico screening to this region. Once we detected that several compounds bound CXCR4 in this region, the cleavage properties were calculated by subtracting the compound structure. The resulting PDB was analyzed using the PDBsum server (Laskowski R.A. et. al. Protein Sci. 2018). Volume calculations were obtained using the server analyzing surface clefts by SURFNET (Laskowski R. A. J. Mol. Graph. 1995). The theoretical interaction surface between the selected compounds and CXCR4 and the atomic distances between the protein residues and the compounds was calculated using the PISA server (Krissinel E. & Henrick K. J. Mol. Biol. 2007) (Fig. I, only for review purposes). The analysis of the cleft occupied by AGR1.135 showed two independent cavities of 434 Å3 and 1,381 Å3 that were not connected to the orthosteric site. In the case of AGR1.137, the data revealed two distinct clefts of 790 Å3 and 580 Å3 (Fig. I, only for review purposes). These details have been included in the revised manuscript (New Fig. 1A, Supplementary Fig 8A, B).

      (4) Clarify the statement regarding the cleft being "surface exposed for interactions with the plasma membrane," particularly in the context of its embedding within the membrane.

      For GPCRs, transmembrane domains represent binding sites for bioactive lipids that play important functional and physiological roles (Huwiler A. & Zangemeister-Wittke U. Pharmacol. Ther. 2018). The channel between TMV and TMVI connects the orthosteric chemokine binding pocket to the lipid bilayer and is occupied by an oleic acid molecule, according to the CXCR4 structure published in 2010 (Wu B. et al. Science 2010). In addition, the target region contains residues involved in cholesterol (and perhaps other lipids) engagement (Di Marino et al. Nat. Commun. 2023). Taken together, these data support our statement that the cleft supports interactions between CXCR4 molecules and the plasma membrane. 

      Moreover, the data of Di Marino et al. also support that CCR5 and CXCR4 have a symmetric and an asymmetric binding mode. Therefore, either dimeric structure has the possibility to form trimers, tetramers, and even oligomers by using the free binding interface to complex with another protomer. This hypothesis suggests that the interaction of dimers to form oligomers should involve residues distinct from those included in the dimeric conformation.

      The sentence has been modified in the revised manuscript to clarify comprehension.

      (5) Discuss the rationale behind targeting the allosteric binding pocket instead of the orthosteric pocket, outlining potential advantages and disadvantages.

      The advantages and disadvantages of using negative allosteric modulators vs orthosteric antagonists have been now included in the revised discussion. 

      The majority of GPCR-targeted drugs function by binding to the orthosteric site of the receptor, and are agonists, partial agonists, antagonists or inverse agonists. These orthosteric compounds can have off-target effects and poor selectivity due to highly homologous receptor orthosteric sites and to abrogation of spatial and/or temporal endogenous signaling patterns. 

      The alternative is to use allosteric modulators, which can tune the functions associated with the receptors without affecting the orthosteric site. They can be positive, negative or neutral modulators, depending on their effect on the functionality of the receptor (Foster D.J. & Conn P.J. Neuron 2017). For example, the use of a negative allosteric modulator of a chemokine receptor to dampen pathological signaling events, while retaining full signaling for non-pathological activities might limit adverse effects (Kohout T.A.et al. J. Biol. Chem. 2004). In this case, the negative allosteric modulator 873140 blocks CCL3 binding on CCR5 but does not alter CCL5 binding (Watson C. et al. Mol. Pharmacol. 2005). In other cases, allosteric modulators can stabilize a particular receptor conformation and block others. The mechanism of action of the anti-HIV-1, FDAapproved, CCR5 allosteric modulator, maraviroc (Jin J. et al. Sci. Signal. 2018) is attributed to its ability to modulate CCR5 dimer populations and their subsequent subcellular trafficking and localization to the cell membrane (Jin J .et al. Sci. Signal. 2018). Two CCR5 dimeric conformations that are imperative for membrane localization were present in the absence of maraviroc; however, an additional CCR5 dimer conformation was discovered after the addition of maraviroc, and all homodimeric conformations were further stabilized. This finding is consistent with the observation that CCR5 dimers and oligomers inhibit HIV host-cell entry, likely by preventing the HIV-1 co-receptor formation.

      It is well known that GPCRs activate G proteins, but they also recruit additional proteins (e.g., β-arrestins) that induce signaling cascades which, in turn, can direct specific subsets of cellular responses independent of G protein activation (Eichel K. et al. Nature 2018) and are responsible for either therapeutic or adverse effects. Allosteric modulators can thus be used to block these adverse effects without influencing the therapeutic benefits. This was the case in the design of G protein-biased agonists for the kappa opioid receptor, which maintain the desirable antinociceptive and antipruritic effects and eliminate the sedative and dissociative effects in rodent models (Brust T.F. et al. Sci. Signal 2016).

      (6) Provide the PDB ID of the CXCR4 structure used as a template for modeling with SwissModel. Explain the decision to model the structure from the amino acid sequence and suggest an alternative approach, such as utilizing AlphaFold structures and performing classical molecular dynamics with subsequent clustering for the best representative structure.

      The PDB used as a template for modeling CXCR4 was 3ODU. This information was already included in the material and methods section. At the time we performed these analyses, there were several crystallographic structures of CXCR4 in complex with different molecules and peptides deposited at the PDB. None of them included a full construct containing the complete receptor sequence to provide a suitable sample for Xray structure resolution, as the N- and C-terminal ends of CXCR4 are very flexible loops. In addition, the CXCR4 constructs contained T4 lysozyme inserted between helices TMV and TMVI to increase the stability of the protein––a common strategy used to facilitate crystallogenesis of GPCRs (Zou Y. et al. PLoS One 2012). Therefore, we generated a CXCR4 homology model using the SWISS-MODEL server (Waterhouse A. et al. Nucleic Acids Res. 2018). This program reconstructed the loop between TMV and TMVI, a domain particularly important in this study that was not present in any of the crystal structure available in PDB. The model structure was, nonetheless, still incomplete, as it began at P27 and ended at S319 because the terminal ends were not resolved in the crystal structure used as a template. Nevertheless, we considered that these terminal ends were not involved in CXCR4 oligomerization. 

      As Alphafold was not available at the time we initiated this project, we didn’t use it. However, we have now updated our workflow to current methods and predicted the structure of the target using AlphaFold (Jumper J. et al. Nature 2021) and the sequence available under UniProt entry P61073. We prepared the ligands using OpenBabel (O’Boyle N.M. et al., J. Cheminformatics 2011), with a gasteiger charge assignment, and generated 10 conformers for each input ligand using the OpenBabel genetic algorithm. We then prepared the target structure with Openmm, removing all waters and possible heteroatoms, and adding all missing atoms. We next predicted the target binding pockets with fPocket (Le Guilloux V. et al. BMC Bioinformatics 2009), p2rank (Krivak R. & Hoksza, J. Cheminformatics 2018), and AutoDock autosite (Ravindranath P.A. & Sanner M.F. Bioinformatics 2016). We chose only those pockets between TMV and TMVI (see answer to point 3). We merged the results of the three programs into so-called consensus pockets, as two pockets are said to be sufficiently similar if at least 75% of their surfaces are shared (del Hoyo D. et al. J. Chem. Inform. Model. 2023). From the consensus pockets, there was one pocket that was significantly larger than the others and was therefore selected. We then docked the ligand conformers in this pocket using AutoDock GPU (Santos-Martins D. et al. J. Chem. Theory Comput. 2021), LeDock (Liu N & Xu Z., IOP Conf. Ser. Earth Environ. Sci. 2019), and Vina (Eberhardt J. et al. J. Chem. Inf. Model. 2021). The number of dockings varied from 210 to 287 poses. We scored each pose with the Vina score using ODDT (Wójcikowski M. et al. J. Cheminform. 2015). Then, we clustered the different solutions into groups whose maximum RMSD was 1Å. This resulted in 40 clusters, the representative of each cluster was the one with maximum Vina score and confirmed that the selected compounds bound this pocket (Author response image 1). When required, we calculated the binding affinity using Schrodinger’s MM-GBSA procedure (Greenidge P.A. et al. J. Chem. Inf. Model. 2013), in two ways: first, assuming that the ligand and target are fixed; second, with an energy minimization of all the atoms within a distance of 3Å from the ligand. This information has now been included in the revised version of the manuscript.

      Author response image 1.

      AGR1.135 docking in CXCR4 using the updated protocol for ligand docking. Cartoon representation colored in gray with TMV and TMVI shown in blue and pink, respectively. AGR1.135 is shown in stick representation with carbons in yellow, oxygens in red and nitrogens in blue.

      (7) Specify the meaning of "minimal interaction energy" and where (if present) the interaction scores are reported in the text.

      We refer to minimal interaction energy, the best docking score, that is, the best score obtained in our docking studies. These data were not included in the previous manuscript due to space restrictions but are now included in the reviewed manuscript.

      (8) You performed docking studies using GLIDE to identify potential binding sites for the small compounds on the CXCR4 protein. The top-scoring binders were then subjected to further refinement using PELE simulations. However, I realize that a detailed description of the specific binding modes of these compounds was not provided in the text. Please make the description of binding poses more detailed

      Firstly, to assess the reliability of this method, a PELE study was carried out for the control molecule IT1t, which is a small drug-like isothiourea derivative that has been crystallized in complex with CXCR4 (PDB code: 3ODU). IT1t is a CXCR4 antagonist that binds to the CXCL12 binding cavity and inhibits HIV-1 infection (Das D. Antimicrob. Agents Chemother. 2015; Dekkers S. et al. J. Med. Chem. 2023). From the best five trajectories, two of them had clearly better binding energies, and corresponded to almost the same predicted pose of the molecule. Although the predicted binding mode was not exactly the same as the one in the crystal structure, the approximation was very good, giving validation to the approach. Although PELE is a suitable technique to find potential binding sites, the predicted poses must be subsequently refined using docking programs.

      Analyzing the best trajectories for the remaining ligands, at least one of the best-scored poses was always located at the orthosteric binding site of CXCR4. Even though these poses showed good binding energies, they were discarded as the in vitro biological experiments indicated that the compounds were unable to block CXCL12 binding or CXCL12-mediated inhibition of cAMP release or CXCR4 internalization. Collectively, these data indicated that the selected compounds did not behave as orthosteric inhibitors of CXCR4. The CXCL12 binding pocket is the biggest cavity in CXCR4, and so PELE may tend to place the molecules near it. However, all the compounds presented other feasible binding sites with a comparable binding energy.

      AGR1.135 and AGR1.137 showed interesting poses between TMV and TMVI with very good binding energy (-51.4 and -37.2 kcal/mol, respectively). This was precisely the region we had previously selected for the in silico screening, as previously described (see response to point 3).

      AGR1.131 showed two poses with low binding energy that were placed between helices TMI and TMVII (-43.6 kcal/mol) and between helices TMV and TMVI (-39.8 kcal/mol). This compound was unable to affect CXCL12-mediated chemotaxis and was therefore used as an internal negative control as it was selected in the in silico screening with the same criteria as the other compounds but failed to alter any CXCL12-mediated functions. PELE studies nonetheless provided different binding sites for each molecule, which had to be further studied using docking to obtain a more accurate binding mode. In agreement with the previous commentary, we repeated the analysis using AlphaFold and the rest of the procedure described (see our response to point 6) and calculated the binding energies for all the compounds using Schrodinger’s MM-GBSA procedure (Greenidge P.A. et al. J. Chem. Inf. Model. 2013). Calculations were performed in two ways: first, assuming that the ligand and target are fixed; second, with an energy minimization of all the atoms within a distance of 3Å from the ligand. The results using the first method indicated that AGR1.135 and AGR1.137 showed poses between TMV and TMVI with - 56.4 and -62.4 kcal/mol, respectively and AGR1.131 had a pose between TMI and TMVII with -61.6kcal/mol.  In the second method AGR1.135 and AGR1.137 showed poses between TMV and TMVI with -57.9, and -67.6 kcal/mol, respectively, and AGR1.131 of -62.2 kcal/mol between TMI and TMVII.

      This information is now included in the text.

      (9) (2) Experimental Design:-Justify the choice of treating Jurkat cells with a concentration of 50 μM of the selected compound. Consider exploring different concentrations and provide a rationale for the selected dosage. Additionally, clearly identify the type of small compound used in the initial experiment.

      The revised version contains a new panel in Fig. 1B to show a more detailed kinetic analysis with different concentrations (1-100 µM) of the compounds in the Jurkat migration experiments. In all cases, 100 µM nearly completely abrogated cell migration, but in order to reduce the amount of DMSO added to the cells we selected 50 µM for further experiments, as it was the concentration that inhibits 50-75% of ligand-induced cell migration. Regarding the type of small compounds used in the initial experiments, they were compounds included in the library described in reference #24 (Sebastian-Pérez V. et al Med. Biol. Chem. 2017), which contains heterocyclic compounds. We would note that we do not consider AGR1.137 a final compound. We think that there is scope to develop AGR1.137-based second-generation compounds with greater solubility in water, greater specificity or affinity for CXCR4, and to evaluate delivery methods to hopefully increase activity.  

      (10) Avoid reporting details in rounded parentheses within the text; consider relocating such information to the Materials and Methods section or figure captions for improved readability.

      Most of the rounded parentheses within the text have been eliminated in the revised version of the manuscript to improve readability.

      (11) Elaborate on the virtual screening approach using GLIDE software, specifying the targeted site and methodology employed.

      For the virtual screening, we used the Glide module (SP and XP function scoring) included in the Schrödinger software package, utilizing the corresponding 3D target structure and our MBC library (Sebastián-Pérez V et al. J. Chem. Inf. Model. 2017).  The center of the catalytic pocket was selected as the centroid of the grid. In the grid generation, a scaling factor of 1.0 in van der Waals radius scaling and a partial charge cutoff of 0.25 were used. A rescoring of the SP poses of each compound was then performed with the XP scoring function of the Glide. The XP mode in Glide was used in the virtual screening, the ligand sampling was flexible, epik state penalties were added and an energy window of 2.5 kcal/mol was used for ring sampling. In the energy minimization step, the distance-dependent dielectric constant was 4.0 with a maximum number of minimization steps of 100,000. In the clustering, poses were considered as duplicates and discarded if both RMS deviation is less than 0.5 Å and maximum atomic displacement is less than 1.3 Å.

      (12) Provide clarity on the statement that AGR1.131 "theoretically" binds the same motif, explaining the docking procedure used for this determination.

      In the in silico screening, AGR1.131 was one of the 40 selected compounds that showed, according to the PELE analysis (see answer to point 8), a pose with low binding energy (-39.8 kcal/mol) between TMV and TMVI helices, which is the selected area for the screening. It, nonetheless, also showed a best pose placed between helices TM1 and TM7 (-43.7 kcal/mol) using the initial workflow. In conclusion, although AGR1.131 also faced to the TMV-TMVI, the most favorable pose was in the area between TMI and TMVII. In addition, the compound was included in the biological screening, where it did not affect CXCL12-mediated chemotaxis. We thus decided to use it as an internal negative control, as it has a skeleton very similar to AGR1.135 and AGR1.137 and can interact with the TM domains of CXCR4 without promoting biological effects. This statement has been clarified in the revised text.

      (13) Toxicity Testing:

      -Enhance the explanation of the approach to testing the toxicity of the compound in Jurkat cells. Consider incorporating positive controls to strengthen the assessment and clarify the experimental design.

      All the selected compounds in the in silico screening were initially tested for propidium iodide incorporation in treated cells in a toxicity assay, and some of them were discarded for further experiments (e.g., AGR1.103 and VSP3.1).

      Further evaluation of Jurkat cell viability was determined by cell cycle analysis using propidium iodide.  Supplementary Fig. 1B included the percentage of each cell cycle phase, and data indicated no significant differences between the treatments tested. Nevertheless, at the suggestion of the reviewer, and to clarify this issue, positive controls inducing Jurkat cell death (staurosporine and hydrogen peroxide) have also been included in the new Supplementary Fig. 2. The new figure also includes a table showing the percentage of cells in each cell-cycle phase.  

      (14) In the Results section concerning "AGR1.135 and AGR1.137 blocking CXCL12-mediated CXCR4 nanoclustering and dynamics", several points can be improved to enhance clarity and coherence: 1. Specificity of Low Molecular Weight Compounds:  

      -Clearly articulate how AGR1.135 and AGR1.137 specifically target homodimeric CXCR4 and provide an explanation for their lack of impact on heterodimeric CXCR4-CCR5 in that region.

      First of all, we should clarify that when we talk about receptor nanoclustering, oligomers refer to complexes including 3 or more receptors and, therefore, the residues involved in these interactions can differ from those involved in receptor dimerization. Moreover, our FRET experiments did not indicate that the compounds alter receptor dimerization (see new Supplementary Fig. 7). Of note, mutant receptors unable to oligomerize can still form dimers (Martínez-Muñoz L. et al. Mol. Cell 2018; García-Cuesta E.M .et al. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 2022). Additionally, we believe that these oligomers can also include other chemokine receptors/proteins expressed at the cell membrane, which we are currently studying using different models and techniques.

      We have results supporting the existence of CCR5/CXCR4 heterodimers (Martínez-Muñoz L et al. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 2014), in line with the data published by Di Marino et al. However, in the current study we have not evaluated the impact of the selected compounds on other CXCR4 complexes distinct from CXCR4 oligomers. Our Jurkat cells do not express CCR5 and, therefore, we cannot discuss whether AGR1.137 affects CCR5/CXCR4 heterodimers. The chemokine field is very complex and most receptors can form dimers (homo- and heterodimers) as well as oligomers (Martinez-Muñoz L., et al Pharmacol & Therap. 2011) when co-expressed. To evaluate different receptor combinations in the same experiment is a complex task, as the number of potential combinations between distinct expressed receptors makes the analysis very difficult. We started with CXCR4 as a model, to continue later with other possible CXCR4 complexes. In addition, for the analysis of CCR5/CXCR4 dynamics, it is much better to use dual-TIRF techniques, which allow the simultaneous detection of two distinct molecules coupled to different fluorochromes.

      Regarding the data of Di Marino et al., it is possible that the compounds might also affect heterodimeric conformations of CXCR4. This aspect has also been broached in the revised discussion. We would again note that we evaluated CXCR4 oligomers and not monomers or dimers; this is especially relevant when we compare the residues involved in these processes as they might differ depending on the receptor conformation considered. This issue was also hypothesized by Di Marino et al. (see our response to point 4).

      (15) When referring to "unstimulated" cells, provide a more detailed explanation to elucidate the experimental conditions and cellular state under consideration.

      Unstimulated cells refer to the cells in basal conditions, that is, cells in the absence of CXCL12. For TIRF-M experiments, transiently-transfected Jurkat cells were plated on glass-bottomed microwell dishes coated with fibronectin; these are the unstimulated cells. To observe the effect of the ligand, dishes were coated as above plus CXCL12 (stimulated cells). We have clarified this point in the material and methods section of the revised version.

      (16) 2. Paragraph Organization

      -Reorganize the second paragraph to eliminate redundancy and improve overall flow. A more concise and fluid presentation will facilitate reader comprehension and engagement.

      The second paragraph has been reorganized to improve overall flow.

      (17) Ensure that each paragraph contributes distinct information, avoiding repetition and redundancy.

      We have carefully revised each paragraph of the manuscript to avoid redundancy.

      (18) 3. Claim of Allosteric Antagonism:

      -Exercise caution when asserting that "AGR1.135 and AGR1.137 behave as allosteric antagonists of CXCR4" based on the presented results. Consider rephrasing to reflect that the observed effects suggest the potential allosteric nature of these compounds, acknowledging the need for further investigations and evidence.

      To avoid misinterpretations on the effect of the compounds on CXCR4, as we have commented in our response to point 2, we have substituted the term allosteric inhibitors with negative allosteric modulators, which refer to molecules that act by binding a site distinct from the orthosteric site, and selectively block some downstream signaling pathways, whereas others induced by the same endogenous or orthosteric agonist are unaffected (Gao Z.-G. & Jacobson K.A. Drug Discov. Today Technol. 2013). Our data indicate that the selected small compounds do not block ligand binding or G protein activation or receptor internalization, but inhibit receptor oligomerization and ligand-mediated directed cell migration.

      (19) In the Results section discussing the "incomplete abolition of CXCR4-mediated responses in Jurkat cells by AGR1.135 and AGR1.137", several points can be refined for better clarity and completeness:  1. Inclusion of Positive Controls: 

      -Consider incorporating positive controls in relevant experiments to provide a comparative benchmark for assessing the impact of AGR1.135 and AGR1.137. This addition will strengthen the interpretation of results and enhance the experimental rigor. 

      The in vivo experiments (Fig. 7E,F) used AMD3100, an orthosteric antagonist of CXCR4, as a positive control. We also included AMD3100, as a positive control of inhibition when evaluating the effect of the compounds on CXCL12 binding (Fig. 3, new Supplementary Fig. 3). The revised version of the manuscript also includes the effect of this inhibitor on other relevant CXCL12-mediated responses such as cell migration (Fig. 1B), receptor internalization (Fig. 3A), cAMP production (Fig. 3C), ERK1/2 and AKT phosphorylation (Supplementary Fig. 4), actin polymerization (Fig. 4A), cell polarization (Fig. 4B, C) and cell adhesion (Fig. 4D), to facilitate the interpretation of the results and improve the experimental rigor.

      (20) 2. Clarification of Terminology: 

      -Clarify the term "CXCR4 internalizes" by providing context, perhaps explaining the process of receptor internalization and its relevance to the study.

      We refer to CXCR4 internalization as a CXCL12-mediated endocytosis process that results in reduction of CXCR4 levels on the cell surface. We use CXCR4 internalization in this study with two purposes: First, for CXCR4 and other chemokine receptors, internalization processes are mediated by ligand-induced clathrin vesicles (Venkatesan et al 2003) a process that triggers CXCR4 aggregation in these vesicles. We have previously determined that the oligomers of receptors detected by TIRF-M remain unaltered in cells treated with inhibitors of clathrin vesicle formation and of internalization processes (Martinez-Muñoz L. et al. Mol. Cell 2018). Moreover, we have described a mutant CXCR4 that cannot form oligomers but internalizes normally in response to CXCL12 (Martinez-Muñoz L. et al. Mol. Cell 2018). The observation in this manuscript of normal CXCL12-mediated endocytosis in the presence of the negative allosteric inhibitors of CXCR4 that abrogate receptor oligomerization reinforces the idea that the oligomers detected by TIRF are not related to receptor aggregates involved in endocytosis; Second, receptor internalization is not affected by the allosteric compounds, indicating that they downregulate some CXCL12-mediated signaling events but not others (new Fig. 3).

      All these data have been included in the revised discussion of the manuscript.

      (21) Elaborate on the meaning of "CXCL12 triggers normal CXCR4mut internalization" to enhance reader understanding.

      We have previously described a triple-mutant CXCR4 (K239L/V242A/L246A; CXCR4mut). The mutant residues are located in the N-terminal region of TMVI, close to the cytoplasmic region, thus limiting the CXCR4 pocket described in this study (see our response to point 3). This mutant receptor dimerizes but neither oligomerizes in response to CXCL12 nor supports CXCL12-induced directed cell migration, although it can still trigger some Ca2+ flux and is internalized after ligand activation (Martinez-Muñoz L. et al. Mol. Cell 2018).  We use the behavior of this mutant (CXCR4mut) to show that the CXCR4 oligomers and the complexes involved in internalization processes are not the same and to explain why we evaluated CXCR4 endocytosis in the presence of the negative allosteric modulators.

      As we indicated in a previous answer to the reviewer, these issues have been re-elaborated in the revised version.

      (22) 3. Discrepancy in CXCL12 Concentration:

      -Address the apparent discrepancy between the text stating, "...were stimulated with CXCL12 (50 nM, 37{degree sign}C)," and the figure caption (Fig. 3A) reporting a concentration of 12.5 nM. Rectify this inconsistency and provide an accurate and clear explanation.

      We apologize for this error, which is now corrected in the revised manuscript. With the exception of the cell migration assays in Transwells, where the optimal concentration was established at 12.5 nM, in the remaining experiments the optimal concentration of CXCL12 employed was 50 nM. These concentrations were optimized in previous works of our laboratory using the same type of experiment. We should also remark that in the experiments using lipid bilayers or TIRF-M experiments, CXCL12 is used to coat the plates and therefore it is difficult to determine the real concentration of the ligand that is retained in the surface of the plates after the washing steps performed prior to adding the cells. In addition, we use 100 nM CXCL12 to create the gradient in the chambers used to perform the directed-cell migration experiments.

      (23) 4. Speculation on CXCL12 Binding:

      -Refrain from making speculative statements, such as "These data suggest that none of the antagonists alters CXCL12 binding to CXCR4," unless there is concrete evidence presented up to that point. Clearly outline the results that support this conclusion.

      Figure 3B and Supplementary Figure 3 show CXCL12-ATTO700 binding by flow cytometry in cells pretreated with the negative allosteric modulators. We have also included AMD3100, the orthosteric antagonist, as a control for inhibition. While these experiments showed no major effect of the compounds on CXCL12 binding, we cannot discard small changes in the affinity of the interaction between CXCL12 and CXCR4. In consequence we have re-written these statements.

      (24) 5. Corroboration of Data:

      -Specify where the corroborating data from immunostaining and confocal analysis are reported, ensuring readers can access the relevant information to support the conclusions drawn in this section.

      In agreement with the suggestion of the reviewer, the revised manuscript includes data from immunostaining and confocal analysis to complement Fig. 4B (new Fig. 4C). The revised version also includes some representative videos for the TIRF experiments showed in Figure 2 to clarify readability.

      (25) In the Results section concerning "AGR1.135 and AGR1.137 antagonists and their direct binding to CXCR4", several aspects need clarification and refinement for a more comprehensive and understandable presentation: 1. Workflow Clarification:

      -Clearly articulate the workflow used for assessing the binding of AGR1.135 and AGR1.137 to CXCR4. Address the apparent contradiction between the inability to detect a direct interaction and the utilization of Glide for docking in the TMV-TMVI cleft.

      To address the direct interaction of the compounds with CXCR4, we intentionally avoided the modification of the small compounds with different labels, which could affect their properties. We therefore attempted a fluorescence a spectroscopy strategy to formally prove the ability of the small compounds to bind CXCR4, but this failed because the AGR1.135 is yellow in color, which interfered with the determinations. We also tried a FRET strategy (see new Supplementary Fig. 7) and detected a significant increase in FRET efficiency of CXCR4 homodimers when AGR1.135 was evaluated, but again the yellow color interfered with FRET determinations. Moreover, AGR1.137 did not modify FRET efficiency of CXCR4 dimers. Therefore, we were unable to detect the interaction of the compounds with CXCR4.

      We elected to develop an indirect strategy; in silico, we evaluated the binding-site using docking and molecular dynamics to predict the most promising CXCR4 binding residues involved in the interaction with the selected compounds. Next, we generated point mutant receptors of the predicted residues and re-evaluated the behavior of the allosteric antagonists in a CXCL12-induced cell migration experiment. Obviously, we first discarded those CXCR4 mutants that were not expressed on the cell membrane as well as those that were not functional when activated with CXCL12. Using this strategy, we eliminated the interference due to the physical properties of the compounds and demonstrated that if the antagonism of a compound is reversed in a particular CXCR4 mutant it is because the mutated residue participates or interferes with the interaction between CXCR4 and the compound, thus assuming (albeit indirectly) that the compound binds CXCR4. 

      To select the specific mutations included in the analysis, our strategy was to generate point mutations in residues present in the TMV-TMVI pocket of CXCR4 that were not directly proposed as critical residues involved in chemokine engagement, signal initiation, signal propagation, or G protein-binding, based on the extensive mutational study published by Wescott MP et. al. (Wescott M.P. et. al. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. U S A. 2016).

      (26) Provide a cohesive explanation of the transition from docking evaluation to MD analysis, ensuring a transparent representation of the methodology.

      Based on the aim of this work, the workflow shown in Author response image 2, was proposed to predict the binding mode of the selected molecules. Firstly, a CXCR4 model was generated to reconstruct some unresolved parts of the protein structure; then a binding site search using PELE software was performed to identify the most promising binding sites; subsequently, docking studies were performed to refine the binding mode of the molecules; and finally, molecular dynamics simulations were run to determine the most stable poses and predict the residues that we should mutate to test that the compounds interact with CXCR4. 

      Author response image 2.

      Workflow followed to determine the binding mode of the  studied compounds.

      (27) 2. Choice of Software and Techniques:

      -Justify the use of "AMBER14" and the PELE approach, considering  their potential obsolescence.

      These experiments were performed five years ago when the project was initiated. As the reviewer indicates, AMBER14 and PELE approaches might perhaps be considered obsolescent. Thus, we have predicted the structure of the target using AlphaFold (Jumper J. et al, Nature 2021) and the sequence available under UniProt entry P61073. The complete analysis performed (see our response to point 4) confirmed that the compounds bound the selected pocket, as we had originally determined using PELE. These new analyses have been incorporated into the revised manuscript.

      (28)-Discuss the role of the membrane in the receptor-ligand interac7on. Elaborate on how the lipidic double layer may influence the binding of small compounds to GPCRs embedded in the membrane.

      Biological membranes are vital components of living organisms, providing a diffusion barrier that separates cells from the extracellular environment, and compartmentalizing specialized organelles within the cell. In order to maintain the diffusion barrier and to keep it electrochemically sealed, a close interaction of membrane proteins with the lipid bilayer is necessary. It is well known that this is important, as many membrane proteins undergo conformational changes that affect their transmembrane regions and that may regulate their activity, as seen with GPCRs (Daemen F.J. & Bonting S.L., Biophys. Struct. Mech. 1977; Gether U. et al. EMBO J. 1997). The lateral and rotational mobility of membrane lipids supports the sealing function while allowing for the structural rearrangement of membrane proteins, as they can adhere to the surface of integral membrane proteins and flexibly adjust to a changing microenvironment. In the case of the first atomistic structure of CXCR4 (Wu B. et al. Science 2010), it was indicated that for dimers, monomers interact only at the extracellular side of helices V and VI, leaving at least a 4-Å gap between the intracellular regions, which is presumably filled by lipids. In particular, they indicated that the channel between TMV and TMVI that connects the orthosteric chemokine binding pocket to the lipid bilayer is occupied by an oleic acid molecule. Recently, Di Marino et al., analyzing the dimeric structure of CXCR4, found a cholesterol molecule placed in between the two protomers, where it engages a series of hydrophobic interactions with residues located in the area between TMI and TMVI (Leu132, Val214, Leu216, Leu246, and Phe249). The polar head of cholesterol forms an H-bond with Tyr135 that further stabilizes its binding mode. This finding confirms that cholesterol might play an important role in mediating and stabilizing receptor dimerization, as seen in other GPCRs (Pluhackova, K., et al. PLoS Comput. Biol. 2016). In addition, we have previously observed that, independently of the structural changes on CXCR4 triggered by lipids, the local lipid environment also regulates CXCR4 organization, dynamics and function at the cell membrane and modulates chemokine-triggered directed cell migration. Prolonged treatment of T cells with bacterial sphingomyelinase promoted the complete and sustained breakdown of sphingomyelins and the accumulation of the corresponding ceramides, which altered both membrane fluidity and CXCR4 nanoclustering and dynamics. Under these conditions, CXCR4 retained some CXCL12-mediated signaling activity but failed to promote efficient directed cell migration (Gardeta S.R. et al. Front. Immunol. 2022). Collectively, these data demonstrate the key role that lipids play in the stabilization of CXCR4 conformations and in regulating its lateral mobility, influencing their associated functions. These considerations have been included in the revised version of the manuscript. 

      (29) 3. Stable Trajectories and Binding Mode Superimposi7on -Specify the criteria for defining "stable trajectories" to enhance reader understanding

      There could be several ways to describe the stability of a MD simulation, based on the convergence of energies, distances or ligand-target interactions, among others. In this work, we use the expression “stable trajectories” to refer to simulations in which the ligand trajectory converges and the ligand RMSD does not fluctuate more than 0.25Å. This definition is now included in the revised text.

      (30)  Clarify the meaning behind superimposing the two small compounds and ensure that the statement in the figure caption aligns with the information presented in the main text.

      We apologize for the error in the previous Fig. 5A and in its legend. The figure was created by superimposing the protein component of the poses for the two compounds, AGR1.135 and AGR1.137, rather than the compounds themselves. As panel 5A was confusing, we have modified all Fig. 5 in the revised manuscript to improve clarity.

      (31) 4. Volume Analysis and Distances:

      -Provide details on how the volume analysis was computed and how distances were accounted for. Consider adding a figure to illustrate these analyses, aiding reader comprehension.

      The cleft search and analysis were performed using the default settings of SURFNET (Laskowski R.A. J. Mol. Graph. 1995) included in the PDBsum server (Laskowski R.A. et. al. Trends Biochem. Sci. 1997). The first run of the input model for CXCR4 3ODU identified a promising cleft of 870 Å3 in the lower half of the region flanked by TMV and TMVI, highlighting this area as a possible small molecule binding site (Fig. I, only for review purposes). Analysis of the cleft occupied by AGR1.135 showed two independent cavities of 434 Å3 and 1381 Å3 that were not connected to the orthosteric site. The same procedure for AGR1.137 revealed two distinct clefts of 790 Å3 and 580 Å3, respectively (Fig. I, only for review purposes). Analysis of the atomic distances between the protein residues and the compounds was performed using the PISA server. Krissinel E. & Henrick K. J. Mol. Biol. 2007). (Please see our response to point 3 and the corresponding figure).

      (32) 5. Mutant Selection and Relevance:

      -Clarify the rationale behind selecting the CXCR4 mutants used in the study. Consider justifying the choice and exploring the possibility of performing an alanine (ALA) scan for a more comprehensive mutational analysis.  

      The selection of the residues to be mutated along the cleft was first based on their presence in the proposed cleft and the direct interaction of the compounds with them, either by hydrogen bonding or by hydrophobic interactions. Secondly, all mutated residues did not belong to any of the critical residues involved in transmitting the signal generated by the interaction of CXCL12 with the receptor. In any case, mutants producing a non-functional CXCR4 at the cell membrane were discarded after FACS analysis and chemotaxis experiments. Finally, the length and nature of the resulting mutations were designed mainly to occlude the cleft in case of the introduction of long residues such as lysines (I204K, L208K) or to alter hydrophobic interactions by changing the carbon side chain composition of the residues in the cleft. Indeed, we agree that the alanine scan mutation analysis would have been an alternative strategy to evaluate the residues involved in the interactions of the compounds. 

      (33) Reevaluate the statement regarding the relevance of the Y256F muta7on for the binding of AGR1.137. If there is a significant impact on migra7on in the mutant (Fig. 6B), elaborate on the significance in the context of AGR1.137 binding.

      In the revised discussion we provide more detail on the relevance of Y256F mutation for the binding of AGR1.137 as well as for the partial effect of G207I and R235L mutations. The predicted interactions for each compound are depicted in new Fig. 6 C, D after LigPlot+ analysis (Laskowski R.A. & Swindells M.B. J. Chem. Inf. Model. 2011), showing that AGR1.135 interacted directly with the receptor through a hydrogen bond with Y256. When this residue was mutated to F, one of the anchor points for the compound was lost, weakening the potential interaction in the region of the upper anchor point.

      It is not clear how the Y256F mutation will affect the binding of AGR1.137, but other potential contacts cannot be ruled out since that portion of the compound is identical in both AGR1.135 and AGR1.137. This is especially true for its neighboring residues in the alpha helix, F249, L208, as shown in 3ODU structure (Fig. 6D), which are shown to be directly implicated in the interaction of both compounds. Alternatively, we cannot discard that Y256 interacts with other TMs or lipids stabilizing the overall structure, which could reverse the effect of the mutant at a later stage (Author response image 3).

      Author response image 3.

      Cartoon representation of Y256 and its intramolecular interactions in the CXCR4 Xray solved structure 3ODU. TMV helix is colored in blue and TMVI in pink.

      (34) Address the apparent discrepancy in residue involvement between AGR1.135 and AGR1.137, particularly if they share the same binding mode in the same clef.

      AGR1.135 and AGR1.137 exhibit comparable yet distinct binding modes, engaging with CXCR4 within a molecular cavity formed by TMV and TMVI. AGR1.135 binds to CXCR4 through three hydrogen bonds, two on the apical side of the compound that interact with residues TMV-G207 and TMVI-Y256 and one on the basal side that interacts with TMVI-R235 (Fig. 5A). This results in a more extended and rigid conformation when sharing hydrogen bonds, with both TMs occupying a surface area of 400 Å2 and a length of 20 Å in the cleft between TMV and TMVI (Supplementary Fig. 8A). AGR1.137 exhibits a distinct binding profile, interacting with a more internal region of the receptor. This interaction involves the formation of a hydrogen bond with TMIIIV124, which induces a conformational shift in the TMVI helix towards an active conformation (Fig. 5B; Supplementary Fig. 13). Moreover, AGR1.137 may utilize the carboxyl group of V124 in TMIII and overlap with AGR1.135 binding in the cavity, interacting with the other 19 residues dispersed between TMV and VI to create an interaction surface of 370 Å2 along 20 Å (Supplementary Fig. 8B). This is illustrated in the new Fig. 5B. AGR1.137 lacks the phenyl ring present in AGR1.135, resulting in a shorter compound with greater difficulty in reaching the lower part of TMVI where R235 sits. 

      Author response image 4.

      AGR1.135 and AGR1.137 interaction with TMV and TMVI.  The model shows the location of the compounds within the TMV-VI cleft, illustrated by a ribbon and stick representation. The CXCR4 segments of TMV and TMVI are represented in blue and pink ribbons respectively, and side chains for some of the residues defining the cavity are shown in sticks. AGR1.135 and AGR1.137 are shown in stick representation with carbon in yellow, nitrogen in blue, oxygen in red, and fluorine in green. Hydrogen bonds are indicated by dashed black lines, while hydrophobic interactions are shown in green. The figure reproduces the panels A, B of Fig. 5 in the revised manuscript.

      (35) In the Results sec7on regarding "AGR1.137 treatment in a zebrafish xenograf model", the following points can be refined for clarity and completeness: 1. Cell Line Choice for Zebrafish Xenograft Model:

      -Explain the rationale behind the choice of HeLa cells for the zebrafish xenograft model when the previous experiments primarily focused on Jurkat cells. Address any specific biological or experimental considerations that influenced this decision.

      As far as we know, there are no available models of tumors in zebrafish using Jurkat cells. We looked for a tumoral cell system that expresses CXCR4 and could be transplanted into zebrafish. HeLa cells are derived from a human cervical tumor, express a functional CXCR4, and have been previously used for tumorigenesis analyses in zebrafish (Brown H.K. et al. Expert Opin. Drug Discover. 2017; You Y. et al Front. Pharmacol. 2020). These cells grow in the fish and disseminate through the ventral area and can be used to determine primary tumor growth and metastasis. Nonetheless, we first analyzed in vitro the expression of a functional CXCR4 in these cells (Supplementary Fig. 10A), whether AGR1.137 treatment specifically abrogated CXCL12-mediated direct cell migration (Fig. 7A, B), as whether it affected cell proliferation (Supplementary Fig. 10B). As HeLa cells reproduce the in vitro effects detected for the compounds in Jurkat cells, we used this model in zebrafish. These issues were already discussed in the first version of our manuscript. 

      (36) 2. Toxicity Assessment in Zebrafish Embryos: 

      -Clarify the basis for stating that AGR1.137 is not toxic to zebrafish embryos. Consider referencing the Zebrafish Embryo Acute Toxicity Test (ZFET) and provide relevant data on lethal concentration (LC50) and non-lethal toxic phenotypes such as pericardial edema, head and tail necrosis, malformation, brain hemorrhage, or yolk sac edema.

      Tumor growth and metastasis kinetics within the zebrafish model have been extensively evaluated in many publications (White R. et al. Nat. Rev. Cancer. 2013; Astell K.R. and Sieger D. Cold Spring Harb. Perspect. Med. 2020; Chen X. et al. Front. Cell Dev. Biol. 2021; Weiss JM. Et al. eLife 2022; Lindhal G. et al NPJ Precis. Oncol. 2024). Our previous experience using this model shows that tumors start having a more pronounced proliferation and lower degree of apoptosis from day 4 onwards, but we cannot keep the tumor-baring larvae for that long due to ethical reasons and also because we don’t see much scientific benefit of unnecessarily extending the experiments. Anti-proliferative or pro-apoptotic effects of drugs can still be observed within the three days, even if this is then commonly seen as larger reduction (instead of a smaller growth as it is commonly seen in for example mouse tumor models) compared to controls. Initially we characterized the evolution of implanted tumors in our system and how much they metastasize over time in the absence of treatment before to test the compounds (Author response image 5).

      The in vivo experiments were planned to validate efficacious concentrations of the investigated drugs rather than to derive in vivo IC50 or other values, which require testing of multiple doses. We have, however, included an additional concentration to show concentration-dependence and therefore on-target specificity of the drugs in the revised version of the manuscript (data also being elaborated in ongoing experiments). At this stage, we believe that adding the LC50 does not provide interesting new knowledge, and it is standard to only show results from the experimental endpoint (in our case 3 days post implantation). We agree that showing these new data points strengthens the manuscript and facilitates independent evaluation and conclusions to be drawn from the presented data. We have created new graphs where datapoints for each compound dose are shown.  

      Author response image 5.

      Evolution of the tumors and metastasis along the time in the absence of any treatment. HeLa cells were labeled with 8 µg/mL Fast-DiI™ oil and then implanted in the dorsal perivitelline space of 2-days old zebrafish embryos. Tumors were imaged within 2 hours of implantation and re-imaged each 24 h for three days. Changes in tumor size was evaluated as tumor area at day 1, 2 and 3 divided by tumor area at day 0, and metastasis was evaluated as the number of cells disseminated to the caudal hematopoietic plexus at day 1, 2 and 3 divided by the number of cells at day  3.

      Regarding the statement that AGR1.137 was not toxic, this was based on visual inspection of the zebrafish larvae at the end of the experiment, which also revealed a lack of drug-related mortality in these experiments. There are a number of differences in how our experiment was run compared with the standardized ZFET. ZFET evaluates toxicity from 0 hours post-fertilization to 1 or 2 days post-fertilization, whereas here we exposed zebrafish from 2 days post-fertilization to 5 days post-fertilization. The ZFET furthermore requires that the embryos are raised at 26ºC whereas kept the temperature as close as possible to a physiologically relevant temperature for the tumor cells (36ºC). In the ZFET, embryos are incubated in 96-well plates whereas for our studies we required larger wells to be able to manipulate the larvae and avoid well edge-related imaging artefacts, and we therefore used 24-well plates. As such, the ZFET was for various reasons not applicable to our experimental settings. As we were not interested in rigorously determining the LD50 or other toxicity-related measurements, as our focus was instead on efficacy and we found that the targeted dose was tolerated, we did not evaluate multiple doses, including lethal doses of the drug, and are therefore not able to determine an LD50/LC50. We also did not find drug-induced non-lethal toxic phenotypes in this study, and so we cannot elaborate further on such phenotypes other than to simply state that the drug is well tolerated at the given doses. Therefore, the reference to ZFET in the manuscript was eliminated.

      (37) If supplementary information is available, consider providing it for a comprehensive understanding of toxicity assessments. 

      The effective concentration used in the zebrafish study was derived from the in vitro experiments. That being said, and as elaborated in our response to comment 36, we have added data for one additional dose to show the dose-dependent regulation of tumor growth and metastasis. 

      (38) 3. Optimization and Development of AGR1.137: 

      -Justify the need for further optimization and development of AGR1.137 if it has a comparable effect to AMD3100. Explain the specific advantages or improvements that AGR1.137 may offer over AMD3100. 

      AGR1.137 is highly hydrophobic and is very difficult to handle, particularly in in vivo assays; thus, for the negative allosteric modulators to be used clinically, it would be very important to increase their solubility in water. Contrastingly, AMD3100 is a water-soluble compound. Before using the zebrafish model, we performed several experiments in mice using AGR1.137, but the inhibitory results were highly variable, probably due to its hydrophobicity. We also believe that it would be important to increase the affinity of AGR1.137 for CXCR4, as the use of lower concentrations of the negative allosteric modulator would limit potential in vivo side effects of the drug. On the other hand, we are also evaluating distinct administration alternatives, including encapsulation of the compounds in different vehicles. These alternatives may also require modifications of the compounds. 

      AMD3100 is an orthosteric inhibitor and therefore blocks all the signaling cascades triggered by CXCL12. For instance, we observed that AMD3100 treatment blocked CXCL12 binding, cAMP inhibition, calcium flux, cell adhesion and cell migration (Fig. 3, Fig. 4), whereas the effects of AGR1.137 were restricted to CXCL12-mediated directed cell migration. Although AMD3100 was well tolerated by healthy volunteers in a singledose study, it also promoted some mild and reversible events, including white blood cells count elevations and variations of urine calcium just beyond the reported normal range (Hendrix C.W. et al. Antimicrob. Agents Chemother. 2000). To treat viral infections, continuous daily dosing requirements of AMD3100 were impractical due to severe side effects including cardiac arrhythmias (De Clercq E. Front Immunol. 2015). For AMD3100 to be used clinically, it would be critical to control the timing of administration. In addition, side effects after long-term administration have potential problems. Shorter-term usage and lower doses would be fundamental keys to its success in clinical use (Liu T.Y. et al. Exp. Hematol. Oncol. 2016). The use of a negative allosteric modulator that block cell migration but do not affect other signaling pathways triggered by CXCL12 would be, at least in theory, more specific and produce less side effects. These ideas have been incorporated into the revised discussion to reflect potential advantages or improvements that AGR1.137 may offer over AMD3100.

      (39) 4. Discrepancy in AGR1.137 and AMD3100 Effects:

      -Discuss the observed discrepancy where AGR1.137 exhibits similar effects to AMD3100 but only after 48 hours. Provide insights into the temporal dynamics of their actions and potential implications for the experimental design.

      Images and data shown in Fig. 7E, F correspond to days 0 and 3 after HeLa cell implantation (tumorigenesis) and only to day 3 in the case of metastasis data. The revised version contains the effect of two distinct doses of the compounds (10 and 50 µM, for AGR1.135 and AGR1.137 and 1 and 10 µM for AMD3100). 

      (40) In the "Discussion" section, there are several points that require clarifica7on and refinement to enhance the overall coherence and depth of the analysis:  1. Reduction of Side-Effects: 

      -Provide a more detailed explanation of how the identified compounds, specifically AGR1.135 and AGR1.137, contribute to the reduction of side effects. Consider discussing specific mechanisms or characteristics that differentiate these compounds from existing antagonists.

      The sentence indicating that AGR1.135 and AGR1.137 contribute to reduce side effects is entirely speculative, as we have no experimental evidence to support it. We have therefore corrected this in the revised version. The origin of the sentence was that orthosteric antagonists typically bind to the same site as the endogenous ligand, thus blocking its interaction with the receptor. Therefore, orthosteric inhibitors (i.e. AMD3100) block all signaling cascades triggered by the ligand and therefore their functional consequences. However, the compounds described in this project are essentially negative allosteric modulators, that is, they bind to a site distinct from the orthosteric site, inducing a conformational change in the receptor that does not alter the binding of the endogenous ligand, and therefore block some specific receptor-associated functions without altering others. We observed that AGR1.137 blocked receptor oligomerization and directed cell migration whereas CXCL12 still bound CXCR4, triggered calcium mobilization, did not inhibit cAMP release or promoted receptor internalization. This is why we speculated on the limitation of side effects. The statements have been nonetheless revised in the new version of the manuscript.

      (41) 2. Binding Site Clarification:

      -Address the apparent discrepancy between docking the small compounds in a narrow cleft formed by TMV and TMVI helices and the statement that AGR1.131 binds elsewhere. Clarify the rationale behind this assertion

      After the in silico screening, a total of 40 compounds were selected.  These compounds showed distinct degrees of interaction with the cleft formed by TMV and TMVI and even with other potential interaction sites on CXCR4, with the exception of the ligand binding site according to the data described by Wescott et al. (PNAS 2016 113:9928-9933), as this possibility was discarded in the initial approach of the in silico screening. According to PELE analysis, AGR1.131 was one of the 40 selected compounds that showed a pose with low binding energy, -39.8 kcal/mol, between TMV and TMVI helices, that is, it might interact with CXCR4 through the selected area for the screening. It nonetheless also showed a best pose placed between helices TMI and TMVII, -43.7 kcal/mol. In any case, the compound was included in the biological screening, where it was unable to impact CXCL12-mediated chemotaxis (Fig. 1B). We then focused on AGR1.135 and AGR1.137, as showed a higher inhibitory effect on CXCL12-mediated migration, and on AGR1.131 as an internal negative control. AGR1.131 has a skeleton very similar to the other compounds (Fig. 1C) and can interact with the TM domains of CXCR4 without promoting effects. None of the three compounds affected CXCL12 binding, or CXCL12mediated inhibition of cAMP release, or receptor internalization. However, whereas AGR1.135 and AGR1.137, blocked CXCL12-mediated CXCR4 oligomerization and directed cell migration towards CXCL12 gradients, AGR1.131 had no effect in these experiments (Fig. 3, Fig.  4). 

      Next, we performed additional theoretical calculations (PELE, docking, MD) to inspect in detail the potential binding modes of active and inactive molecules. Based on these additional calculations, we identified that whereas AGR1.135 and AGR1.137 showed preferent binding on the molecular pocket between TMV and TMVI, the best pose for AGR1.131 was located between TMI and TMVII, as the initial experiments indicated.  These observations and data have been clarified in the revised discussion. 

      (42) 3. Impact of Chemical Modifications:

      -Discuss the consequences of the distinct chemical groups in AGR1.135, AGR1.137, and AGR1.131, specifically addressing how variations in amine length and chemical nature may influence binding affinity and biological activity. Provide insights into the potential effects of these modifications on cellular responses and the observed outcomes in zebrafish. 

      The main difference between AGR1.131 and the other two compounds is the higher flexibility of AGR1.131 due to the additional CH2 linker, together with the lack of a piperazine ring. The additional CH2 linking the phenyl ring increases the flexibility of AGR1.131 when compared with AGR1.135 and AGR1.137, and the absence of the piperazine ring might be responsible for its lack of activity, as it makes this compound able to bind to CXCR4 (Fig. 1C).

      AGR1.137 was chosen in a second round. The additional presence of the tertiary amine (in the piperazine ring) allows the formation of quaternary ammonium salts in the aqueous medium and its substituents to increase its solubility (Fig 1C). This characteristic might be related to the absence of toxic effects of the compound in the zebrafish model.

      (43) 4. Existence of Distinct CXCR4 Conformational States: 

      -Provide more detailed support for the statement suggesting the "existence of distinct CXCR4 conformational states" responsible for activating different signaling pathways. Consider referencing relevant studies or experiments that support this claim.

      Classical models of GPCR allostery and activation, which describe an equilibrium between a single inactive and a single signaling-competent active conformation, cannot account for the complex pharmacology of these receptors. The emerging view is that GPCRs are highly dynamic proteins, and ligands with varying pharmacological properties differentially modulate the balance between multiple conformations.

      Just as a single photograph from one angle cannot capture all aspects of an object in movement, no one biophysical method can visualize all aspects of GPCR activation. In general, there is a tradeoff between high-resolution information on the entire protein versus dynamic information on limited regions. In the former category, crystal and cryo-electron microscopy (cryoEM) structures have provided comprehensive, atomic-resolution snapshots of scores of GPCRs both in inactive and active conformations, revealing conserved conformational changes associated with activation. However, different GPCRs vary considerably in the magnitude and nature of the conformational changes in the orthosteric ligand-binding site following agonist binding (Venkatakrishnan A.J.V. et al. Nature 2016). Spectroscopic and computational approaches provide complementary information, highlighting the role of conformational dynamics in GPCR activation (Latorraca N.R.V. et al. Chem. Rev 2017). In the absence of agonists, the receptor population is typically dominated by conformations closely related to those observed in inactive-state crystal structures (Manglik A. et al. Cell 2015). While agonist binding drives the receptor population towards conformations similar to those in activestate structures, a mixture of inactive and active conformations remains, reflecting “loose” or incomplete allosteric coupling between the orthosteric and transducer pockets (Dror R.O. et al. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 2011). Surprisingly, for some GPCRs, and under some experimental conditions, a substantial fraction of unliganded receptors already reside in an active-like conformation, which may be related to their level of basal or constitutive signaling (Staus D.P. et al. J. Biol. Chem. 2019);  Ye L. et al. Nature 2016).  In our case, the negative allosteric modulators, (Staus DP, et al. J. Biol. Chem 2019); Ye L. et al. Nature 2016) did not alter ligand binding and had only minor effects on specific CXCL12-mediated functions such as inhibition of cAMP release or receptor internalization, among others, but failed to regulate CXCL12-mediated actin dynamics and receptor oligomerization. Collectively, these data suggest that the described compounds alter the active conformation of CXCR4 and therefore support the presence of distinct receptor conformations that explain a partial activation of the signaling cascade.

      All these observations are now included in the revised discussion of the manuscript.

      (44) 5. Equilibrium Shift and Allosteric Ligands: 

      -Clarify the statement about "allosteric ligands shifting the equilibrium to favor a particular receptor conformation". Support this suggestion with references or experimental evidence

      In a previous answer (see our response to point 2), we explain why we define the compounds as negative allosteric modulators. These compounds do not bind the orthosteric binding site or a site distinct from the orthosteric site that alters the ligand-binding site. Their effect should be due to changes in the active conformation of CXCR4, which allow some signaling events whereas others are blocked. Our functional data thus support that through the same receptor the compounds separate distinct receptor-mediated signaling cascades, that is, our data suggest that CXCR4 has a conformational heterogeneity. It is known that GPCRs exhibit more than one “inactive” and “active” conformation, and the endogenous agonists stabilize a mixture of multiple conformations. Biased ligands or allosteric modulators can achieve their distinctive signaling profiles by modulating this distribution of receptor conformations. (Wingler L.M. & Lefkowitz R.J. Trends Cell Biol. 2020). For instance, some analogs of angiotensin II do not appreciably activate Gq signaling (e.g., increases in IP3 and Ca2+) but still induce receptor phosphorylation, internalization, and mitogen-activated protein kinase (MAPK) signaling (Wei H, et al. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 2003). Some of these ligands activate Gi and G12 in bioluminescence resonance energy transfer (BRET) experiments (Namkung Y. et al. Sci. Signal. 2018). A similar observation was described in the case of CCR5, where some chemokine analogs promoted G protein subtype-specific signaling bias (Lorenzen E. et al. Sci. Signal 2018). Structural analysis of distinct GPCRs in the presence of different ligands vary considerably in the magnitude and nature of the conformational changes in the orthosteric ligand-binding site following agonist binding (Venkatakrishnan A.J.V. et al. Nature 2016). Yet, these changes modify conserved motifs in the interior of the receptor core and induce common conformational changes in the intracellular site involved in signal transduction. That is, these modifications might be considered distinct receptor conformations. 

      The revised discussion contains some of these interpretations to support our statement about the stabilization of a particular receptor conformation triggered by the negative allosteric modulators. 

      (45) 6. Refinement of Binding Mode: 

      -Clarify the workflow for obtaining the binding mode, particularly the role of GLIDE and PELE. Clearly explain how these software tools were used in tandem to refine the binding mode. 

      The computational sequential workflow applied in this project included, i) Protein model construction, ii) Virtual screening (Glide), iii) PELE, iv) Docking (AutoDock and Glide) and v) Molecular Dynamics (AMBER).

      Glide was applied for the structure-based virtual screening to explore which compounds could fit and interact with the previously selected binding site.

      After the identification of theoretically active compounds (modulators of CXCR4), additional calculations were done to identify a potential binding site. PELE was used in this sense, to study how the compounds could bind in the whole surface of the target (TMV-TMVI). By applying PELE, we avoided biasing the calculation, and we found that the trajectories with better interaction energies identified the cleft between TMV and TMVI as the binding site for AGR1.135 and AGR1.137, and not for AGR1.131. AGR1.131 showed a pose with low binding energy, -39.8 kcal/mol, between TMV and TMVI helices, that is, it might interact with CXCR4 in the selected area for the screening. But it also showed a better pose placed between helices TMI and TMVII, - 43.7 kcal/mol (see our response to point 41). These data have been now confirmed using Schrodinger’s MM-GBSA procedure (see our response to points 6 and 8). In any case, the compound was included in the biological screening, where it was unable to affect CXCL12-mediated chemotaxis (Fig. 1B). Docking and MD simulations were then performed to study and refine the specific binding mode in this cavity. These data were important to choose the mutations on CXCR4 required, to test whether the compounds reversed its behavior. In these experiments we also confirmed that AGR1.131 had a better pose on the TMI-TMVII region. 

      (46) 7. Impact of Compound Differences on CXCR4-F249L mutant: 

      -Provide visual aids, such as figures, and additional experiments to support the statement about differences in the behavior of AGR1.135 and AGR1.137 on cells expressing CXCR4-F249L mutant. Elaborate on the closer interaction suggested between the triazole group of AGR1.137 and the F249 residue

      At the reviewer’s suggestion, Fig. 5 has been modified to incorporate a closer view of the interactions identified and new panels in new Fig. 6 have been added to show in detail the effect of the mutations selected on the structure of the cleft between TMV and TMVI. The main difference between AGR1.135 and AGR1.137 is how the triazole group interacts with F249 and L216 (Author response image 6). In AGR1.137, the three groups are aligned in a parallel organization, which appears to be more effective: This might be due to a better adaptation of this compound to the cleft since there is only one hydrogen bond with V124. In AGR1.135, the compound interacts with the phenyl ring of F249 and has a stronger interaction at the apical edge to stabilize its position in the cleft. However, there is still an additional interaction present. When changing F249

      Author response image 6.

      Cartoon representation of the interaction of CXCR4 F249L mutant with AGR1.135 (A) and AGR1.137 (B). The two most probable conformations of Leucine rotamers are represented in cyan A and B conformations. Van der Waals interactions are depicted in blue cyan dashed lines, hydrogen bonds in black dashed lines. CXCR4 segments of TMV and TMVI are colored in blue and pink, respectively

      to L (Fig. VIIA, B, only for review purposes) and showing the two most likely rotamers resulting from the mutation, it is observed that rotamer B is in close proximity to the compound, which may cause the binding to either displace or adopt an alternative conformation that is easier to bind into the cleft. As previously mentioned, it is likely that AGR1.135 can displace the mutant rotamer and bind into the cleft more easily due to its higher affinity.

      (47) In the "Materials and Methods" section, the computational approach for the "discovery of CXCR4 modulators" requires significant revision and clarification. The following suggestions aim to address the identified issues: 1. Structural Modeling: 

      -Reconsider the use of SWISS-MODEL if there is an available PDB code for the entire CXCR4 structure. Clearly articulate the rationale for choosing one method over the other and explain any limitations associated with the selected approach. 

      The SWISS-model server allows for automated comparative modeling of 3D protein structures that was pioneered in the fields of automated modeling. At the time we started this project. it was the most accurate method to generate reliable 3D protein structure models.

      As explained above, we have now predicted the structure of the target using AlphaFold (Jumper J. et al, Nature 2021) and performed several additional experiments that confirm that the small compounds bind the selected pocket as the original strategy indicated (see our response to point 6). (Fig. II, only for review purposes).

      (48) 2. Parametriza7on of Small Compounds: 

      -Provide a detailed description of the parametrization process for the small compounds used in the study. Specify the force field and parameters employed, considering the obsolescence of AMBER14 and ff14SB. Consider adopting more contemporary force fields and parameterization strategies. 

      When we performed these experiments, some years ago, the force fields applied (ff14SB, AMBER14 used in MD or OPLS2004 in docking with Glide) were well accepted and were gold standards. It is, however, true that the force fields have evolved in the past few years, Moreover, in the case of the MD simulations, to consider the parameters of the ligands that are not contained within the force field, we performed an additional parameterization as a standard methodology. We then generated an Ab initio optimization of the ligand geometry, defining as basis sets B3LYP 6-311+g(d), using Gaussian 09, Revision A.02, and then a single point energy calculation of ESP charges, with HF 6311+g(d) on the optimized structure. As the last step of the parametrization, the antechamber module was used to adapt these charges and additional parameters for MD simulations.

      (49) 3. Treatment of Lipids and Membrane: 

      -Elaborate on how lipids were treated in the system. Clearly describe whether a membrane was included in the simulations and provide details on its composition and structure. Address the role of the membrane in the study and its relevance to the interactions between CXCR4 and small compounds 

      To stabilize CXCR4 and more accurately reproduce the real environment in the MD simulation, the system was embedded in a lipid bilayer using the Membrane Builder tool (Sunhwan J. et al. Biophys. J. 2009) from the CHARMM-GUI server. The membrane was composed of 175 molecules of the fatty acid 1-palmitoyl-2-oleoyl-sn-glycero-3phosphocholine (POPC) in each leaflet. The protein-membrane complex was solvated with TIP3 water molecules. Chloride ions were added up to a concentration of 0.15 M in water, and sodium ions were added to neutralize the system. This information was previously described in detail.

      (50) 4. Molecular Dynamics Protocol: 

      -Provide a more detailed and coherent explanation of the molecular dynamics protocol. Clarify the specific steps, parameters, and conditions used in the simulations. Ensure that the protocol aligns with established best practices in the field.

      Simulations were calculated on an Asus 1151 h170 LVX-GTX-980Ti workstation, with an Intel Core i7-6500 K Processor (12 M Cache, 3.40 GHz) and 16 GB DDR4 2133 MHz RAM, equipped with a Nvidia GeForce GTX 980Ti available for GPU (Graphics Processing Unit) computations. MD simulations were performed using AMBER14 (Case D.A. et al. AMBERT 14, Univ. of California, San Francisco, USA, 2014) with ff14SB (Maier J.A. et al. J. Chem. Theory Comput. 2015) and lipid14 (Dickson C. J. et al. J. Chem. Theory Comput. 2014) force fields in the NPT thermodynamic ensemble (constant pressure and temperature). Minimization was performed using 3500 Steepest Descent steps and 4500 Conjugate Gradient steps three times, firstly considering only hydrogens, next considering only water molecules and ions, and finally minimizing all atoms. Equilibration raises system temperature from 0 to 300 K at a constant volume fixing everything but ions and water molecules. After thermalization, several density equilibration phases were performed. In the production phase, 50 ns MD simulations without position restraints were calculated using a time step of 2 fs. Trajectories of the most interesting poses were extended to 150 ns. All bonds involving hydrogen atoms were constrained with the SHAKE algorithm (Lippert R.A. et al. J. Chem. Phys. 2007). A cutoff of 8 Å was used for the Lennard-Jones interaction and the short-range electrostatic interactions. Berendsen barostat (Berendsen H.J. et al. J. Chem. Phys.  1984) and Langevin thermostat were used to regulate the system pression and temperature, respectively. All trajectories were processed using CPPTRAJ (Roe D.R. & Cheatham III T.E. J. Chem. Theory Comput. 2013) and visualized with VMD (Visual Molecular Dynamics) (Humphrey W. et al. J. Mol. Graphics. 1996). To reduce the complexity of the data, Principal Component Analysis (PCA) was performed on the trajectories using CPPTRAJ.

      (51) Consider updating the molecular dynamics protocol to incorporate more contemporary methodologies, considering advancements in simulation techniques and software.

      In our answer to points 6 and 47, we describe why we use the technology based on Swiss-model and PELE analysis and how we have now used Alphafold and other more contemporary methodologies to confirm that the small compounds bind the selected pocket.

      (52) Figure 1A: 

      •  Consider switching to a cavity representation for CXCL12 to enhance clarity and emphasize the cleft.

      Fig. 1A has been modified to emphasize the cleft.

      (53) Explicitly show the TMV-TMVI cleft in the figure for a more comprehensive visualization. 

      In Fig. 1A we have added an insert to facilitate TMV-TMVI visualization.

      (54) Figure 1B: 

      •  Clearly explain the meaning of the second DMSO barplot to avoid confusion. 

      To clarify this panel, we have modified the figure and the figure legend. Panel B now includes a complete titration of the three compounds analyzed in the manuscript.  The first bar shows cell migration in the absence of both treatment with AMD3100 and stimulation with CXCL12.  The second bar shows migration in response to CXCL12 in the absence of AMD3100. The third bar shows the effect of AMD3100 on CXCL12-induced migration, as a known control of inhibition of migration.  We hope that this new representation of the data results is clearer.

      (55) Figure 1C: 

      •  Provide a clear legend explaining the significance of the green shading on the small compounds. 

      The legend for Fig. 1C has been modified accordingly to the reviewer’s suggestion.

      (56) Figure 2: 

      •  Elaborate on the role of fibronectin in the experiment and explain the specific contribution of CD86-AcGFP.

      The ideal situation for TIRF-M determinations is to employ cells on a physiological substrate complemented with or without chemokines. Fibronectin is a substrate widely used in different studies that allows cell adhesion, mimicking a physiological situation. Jurkat cells express alpha4beta1 and alpha5beta1 integrins that mediate adhesion to fibronectin (Seminario M.C. et al. J. Leuk. Biol. 1999).

      Regarding the use of CD86-AcGFP in TIRF-M experiments. We currently determine the number of receptors in individual trajectories of CXCR4 using, as a reference, the MSI value of CD86-AcGFP that strictly showed a single photobleaching step (Dorsch S. et al. Nat Methods 2009).

      We preferred to use CD86-AcGFP in cells instead of AcGFP on glass, to exclude any potential effect on the different photodynamics exhibited by AcGFP when bound directly to glass. In any case, this issue has been clarified in the revised version.

      (57) Figure 3D: 

      •  Include a plot for the respective band intensity to enhance data presentation 

      The plot showing the band intensity analysis of the experiments shown in Fig. 3D was already included in the original version (see old Supplementary Fig. 3). However, in the revised version, we include these plots in the same figure as panels 3E and 3F.  As a control of inhibition of CXCL12 stimulation, we have also included a new figure (Supplementary Fig. 4) showing the effect of AMD3100 on CXCL12-induced activation of Akt and ERK as analyzed by western blot.

      (58) Consider adding AMD3100 as a control for comparison. 

      In agreement with the reviewer’s suggestion, we have added the effect of AMD3100 in most of the functional experiments performed.

      (59) Figure 4: 

      •  Address the lack of positive controls in Figure 4 and consider their inclusion for a more comprehensive analysis. 

      DMSO bars correspond to the control of the experiment, as they represent the effect of CXCL12 in the absence of any allosteric modulator. As previously described in this point-by-point reply, DMSO bars correspond to the control performed with the solvent with which the small compounds, at maximum concentration, are diluted.  Therefore, they show the effect of the solvent on CXCL12 responses. In any case, and in order to facilitate the comprehension of the figure we have also added the controls in the absence of DMSO to demonstrate that the solvent does not affect CXCL12-mediated functions, together with the effect of the orthosteric inhibitor AMD3100. In addition, we have also included representative images of the effect of the different compounds on CXCL12-induced polarization (Fig. 4C).

      (60) In Figure 4A, carefully assess overlapping error bars and ensure accurate interpreta7on. If necessary, consider alternative representation. 

      We have tried alternative representations of data in Fig. 4A, but in all cases the figure was unclear. We believe that the way we represent the data in the original manuscript is the most clear and appropriate.  Nevertheless, we have now included significance values as a table annexed to the figure, as well as the effect of AMD3100, as a control of inhibition

      (61) Supplementary Figure 1A: 

      •  Improve the clarity of bar plots for better understanding. Consider reordering them from the most significant to the least. 

      This was a good idea, and therefore Supplementary Fig. 1A has been reorganized to improve clarity.

      (62) Supplementary Figure 1C: 

      •  Clarify the rationale behind choosing the 12.5 nM concentration and explain if different concentrations of CXCL12 were tested. 

      In old Supplementary Fig. 1C, we used untreated cells, that is, CXCL12 was not present in the assay.  These experiments were performed to test the potential toxicity of DMSO (solvent) or the negative allosteric modulators on Jurkat cells. The 12.5 nM concentration of CXCL12 mentioned in the figure legend applied only to panels A and B, as indicated in the figure legend. We previously optimized this concentration for Jurkat cells using different concentrations of CXCL12 between 5 and 100 nM.  Nevertheless, we have reorganized old supplementary fig. 1 and clarified the figure legend to avoid misinterpretations (see Supplementary Fig 1A, B and Supplementary Fig. 2A, B).

      (63) Explain the observed reduction in fluorescence intensity for AGR1.135. 

      The cell cycle analysis has been moved from Supplementary Fig. 1C to a new Supplementary Fig. 2.  It now includes the flow cytometry panels to show fluorescence intensity as a function of the number of cells analyzed (Panel 1A) as well as a table (panel B) with the percentage of cells in each phase of the cell cycle. We believe that the apparent reduction in fluorescence that the reviewer observes is mainly due to the number of events analyzed. However, we have changed the flow cytometry panels for others that are more representative and included a table with the mean of the different results. When we determined the percentage of cells in each cell cycle phase, we observed that it looks very similar in all the experimental conditions. That is, none of the compounds affected any of the cell cycle phases. We have also included the effect of H2O2 and staurosporine as control compounds inducing cell death and cell cycle alteration of Jurkat cells.

      (64) Supplementary Table 1: 

      •  Include a column specifying the scoring for each compound to provide a clear reference for readers. 

      To facilitate references to readers, we have now included the inhibitory effect of each compound on Jurkat cell migration in the revised version of this table. 

      (65) Minor Points 

      Page 2 - Abstract: Rephrase the first sentence of the abstract to enhance fluidity. 

      Although the entire manuscript was revised by a professional English editor, we appreciate the valuable comments of this reviewer and we have corrected these issues accordingly.

      (66) Page 2 - Abstract: Explicitly define "CXCR4" as "C-X-C chemokine receptor type 4" the first time it appears.

      We have not used C-X-C chemokine receptor type 4 the first time it appears in the abstract. CXCR4 is an acronym normally accepted to identify this chemokine receptor, and it is used as CXCR4 in many articles published in eLife. However, we introduce the complete name the first time it appears in the introduction.

      (67) Page 2 - Abstract: Explicitly define "CXCL12" as "C-X-C motif chemokine 12" the first time it is mentioned. 

      As we have discussed in the previous response, we have not used C-X-C motif chemokine 12 the first time CXCL12 appears in the abstract, as it is a general acronym normally accepted to identify this specific chemokine, even in eLife papers. However, we introduce the complete name the first time it appears in the introduction section.

      (68) Page 2 - Abstract: Explicitly define "TMV and TMVI" upon its first mention.

      The acronym TM has been defined as “Transmembrane” in the revised version

      (69) Page 2 - Abstract: Review the use of "in silico" in the sentence for accuracy and consider revising if necessary.

      With the term “in silico” we want to refer to those experiments performed on a computer or via computer simulation software. We have carefully reviewed its use in the new version of the manuscript.

      (70) Page 2 - Abstract: Add a comma after "compound" in the sentence, "We identified AGR1.137, a small compound that abolishes...".

      A comma after “compound” has been added in the revised sentence.

      (71) Page 2 - Significance Statement: Rephrase the first sentence of the "Significance Statement" to avoid duplication with the abstract.

      The first sentence of the Significance Statement has been revised to avoid duplication with the abstract. 

      (72) Page 2 - Significance Statement: Break down the lengthy sentence, "Here, we performed in silico analyses..." for better readability. 

      The sentence starting by “Here, we performed in silico analyses…” has been broken down in the revised manuscript.

      (73) Page 2 - Introduction: Replace "Murine studies" with a more specific term for clarity.

      The term “murine studies” is normally used to refer to experimental studies developed in mice. We have nonetheless rephrased the sentence.

      (74) Page 3 - Introduction: Rephrase the sentence for clarity: "Finally, using a zebrafish model, ..."

      The sentence has been now rephrased for clarity.

      (75) Results-AGR1.135 and AGR1.137 block CXCL12-mediated CXCR4 nanoclustering and dynamics: 

      Rephrase the sentence for clarity: "Retreatment with AGR1.135 and AGR1.137, but not with AGR1.131, substantially impaired CXCL12-mediated receptor nanoclustering.”

      The sentence has been rephrased for clarity.

      (76) Results - AGR1.135 and AGR1.137 incompletely abolish CXCR4-mediated responses in Jurkat cells: Clarify the sentence: "In contrast to the effect promoted by AMD3100, a binding-site antagonist of CXCR4..."

      The sentence has been modified for clarity.

      (77) Consider using "orthosteric" instead of "binding-site" antagonist.

      The term orthosteric is now used throughout to refer to a binding site antagonist.

      (78) Discussion: Use the term "in silico" only when necessary.

      We have carefully reviewed the use of “in silico” in the manuscript.

      (79) Discussion: Clarify the sentence: "...not affect neither CXCR2-mediated cell migration...". Confirm if "CXCL12" is intended.

      The sentence refers to the chemokine receptor CXCR2, which binds the chemokine CXCL2. To test the specificity of the compounds for the CXCL12/CXCR4 axis, we evaluated CXCL2-mediated cell migration.  The results indicated that CXCL2/CXCR2 axis was not affected by the negative allosteric modulators, whereas CXCL12-mediated cell migration was blocked.  The sentence has been clarified in the new version of the manuscript.

      (80) Figure 4B: Bold the "B" in the figure label for consistency.

      The “B” in Fig. 4B has been bolded.

      Reviewer #2

      (1) Fig 2. The SPT data is sub-optimal in its presentation as well as analysis. Example images should be shown. The analysis and visualization of the data should be reconsidered for improvements. Graphs with several hundreds, in some conditions over 1000 tracks, per condition are very hard to compare. The same (randomly selected representative set) number of data points should be shown for better visualization. Also, more thorough analyses like MSD or autocorrelation functions are lacking - they would allow enhanced overall representation of the data.

      In agreement with the reviewer’s commentary, we have modified the representation of Fig. 2. We have carefully read the paper published by Lord S.J. and col. (Lord S. J. et al., J. Cell Biol. 2020) and we apply their recommendations for these type of data. We have also included as supplementary material representative videos for the TIRF-M experiments performed to allow readers to visualize the original images. Regarding the MSD analyses, they were developed to determine all D1-4 values. According to the data published by Manzo & García-Parajo (Manzo C. & García-Parajo M.F. Rep.Prog. Phys. 2015) due to the finite trajectory length the MSD curve at large tlag has poor statistics and deviates from linearity. However, the estimation of the Diffusion Coefficient (D1-4) can be obtained by fitting of the short tlag region of the MSD plot giving a more accurate idea of the behavior of particles. In agreement we show D1-4 values and not MSD data. 

      Due to the space restrictions, it is very difficult to include all the figures generated, but, only for review purposes, we included in this point-by-point reply some representative plots of the MSD values as a function of the time from individual trajectories showing different types of motion obtained in our experiments (Author response image 7).

      Author response image 7.

      Representative MSD plots from individual trajectories of CXCR4-AcGFP showing different types of motion: A) confined, B) Brownian/Free, C) direct transport of CXCR4-AcGFP particles diffusing at the cell membrane detected by SPT-TIRF in resting JKCD4 cells.

      Further analysis, such as the classification based on particle motion, has not been included in this article. This classification uses the moment scaling spectrum (MSS), described by Ewers H. et al. 2005 PNAS, and requires particles with longer trajectories (>50 frames). Only for review purposes, we include a figure showing the percentage of the MSS-based particle motion classification for each condition. As expected, most of long particles are confined, with a slight increase in the percentage upon CXCL12 stimulation in all conditions, except in cell treated with AGR1.137 (Author response image 8).

      Author response image 8.

      Effects of the negative allosteric modulators on the Types of Motion of CXCR4. Percentage of single trajectories with different types of motion, classified by MSS (DMSO: 58 particles in 59 cells on FN; 314 in 63 cells on FN+CXCL12; AGR1.131: 102 particles in 71 cells on FN; 258in 69 cells on FN+CXCL12; AGR1.135: 86 particles in 70 cells on FN; 120 in 77 cells on FN+CXCL12; AGR1.137: 47 particles in 66 cells on FN; 74 in 64 cells on FN+CXCL12) n = 3.

      (2) Fig 3. The figure legends have inadequate information on concentrations and incubation times used, both for the compounds and other treatments like CXCL12 and forskolin. For the Western blot data, also the quantification should be added to the main figure. The compounds, particularly AGR1.137 seem to lead to augmented stimulation of pAKT and pERK. This should be discussed

      The Fig. 3 legend has been corrected in the revised manuscript. Fig. 3D now contains representative western blots and the densitometry evaluation of these experiments. As the reviewer indicates, we also detected in the western blot included, augmented stimulation of pAKT and pERK in cells treated with AGR1.137. However, as shown in the densitometry analysis, no significant differences were noted between the data obtained with each compound. As a control of inhibition of CXCL12 stimulation we have included a new Supplementary Fig. 4 showing the effect of AMD3100 on CXCL12-induced activation of Akt and ERK as analyzed by western blot.

      (3) Fig. 4 immunofluorescence data on polarization as well as the flow chamber data lack the representative images of the data. The information on the source of the T cells is missing. Not clear if this experiment was done on bilayers or on static surfaces.

      Representative images for the data shown in Figure 4B have been added in the revised figure (Fig. 4C). The experiments in Fig. 4B were performed on static surfaces. As indicated in the material and methods section, primary T cell blasts were added to fibronectin-coated glass slides and then were stimulated or not with CXCL12 (5 min at 37ºC) prior to fix permeabilize and stain them with Phalloidin. Primary T cell blasts were generated from PBMCs isolated from buffy coats that were activated in vitro with IL-2 and PHA as indicated in the material and methods section.

      (4) The data largely lacks titration of different concentrations of the compounds. How were the effective concentration and treatment times determined? What happens at higher concentrations? It is important to show, for instance, if the CXCR12 binding gets inhibited at higher concentrations. most experiments were performed with 50 uM, but HeLa cell data with 100 uM. Why and how was this determined? 

      The revised version contains a new panel in Fig. 1B to show a more detailed kinetic analysis with different concentrations (1-100 µM) of the compounds in the migration experiments using Jurkat cells. We choose 50 µM for further studies as it was the concentration that inhibits 50-75% of the ligand induced cell migration. 

      We have also included the effect of two doses of the compounds (10 and 50 µM) in the zebrafish model as well as AMD3100 (1 and 10 µM) as control (new Fig. 7D, E).  Tumors were imaged within 2 hours of implantation and tumor-baring embryos were treated with either vehicle (DMSO) alone, AGR1.131 or AGR1.137 at 10 and 50 µM or AMD3100 at 1 and 10 µM for three days, followed by re-imaging.

      Regarding the amount of CXCL12 used in these experiments, with the exception of cell migration assays in Transwells, where the optimal concentration was established at 12.5 nM, in all the other experiments the optimal concentration of CXCL12 employed was 50 nM. In the case of the directional cell migration assays, we use 100 nM to create the chemokine gradient in the device. These concentrations have been optimized in previous works of our laboratory using these types of experiments. It should also be noted that in the experiments using lipid bilayers or TIRF-M experiments, CXCL12 is used to coat the plates and therefore it is difficult to determine the real concentration that is retained in the surface after the washing steps performed prior adding the cells.

      (5) The authors state that they could not detect direct binding of the compounds and the CXCR14. It should be reported what approaches were tried and discussed why this was not possible. 

      We attempted a fluorescence spectroscopy strategy to formally prove the ability of AGR1.135 to bind CXCR4, but this strategy failed because the compound has a yellow color that interfered with the determinations. We also tried a FRET strategy (see supplementary Fig. 7) and detected a significant increase in FRET efficiency of CXCR4 homodimers in cells treated with AGR1.135; this effect was due to the yellow color of this compound that interferes with FRET determinations. In the same assays, AGR1.137 did not modify FRET efficiency for CXCR4 homodimers and therefore we cannot assume that AGR1.137 binds on CXCR4. All these data have been considered in the revised discussion.

      (6) The proliferation data in Supplementary Figure 1 lacks controls that affect proliferation and indication of different cell cycle stages. What is the conclusion of this data? More information on the effects of the drug to cell viability would be important.

      Toxicity in Jurkat cells was first determined by propidium iodide incorporation. Some compounds (i.e., AGR1.103 and VSP3.1) were discarded from further analysis as they were toxic for cells. In a deeper analysis of cell toxicity, even if these compounds did not kill the cells, we checked whether they could alter the cell cycle of the cells. New Supplementary Fig. 2 includes a table (panel B) with the percentage of cells in each cell cycle phase, and no differences between any of the treatments tested were detected. 

      Nevertheless, to clarify this issue the revised version of the figure also includes H2O2 and staurosporine stimuli to induce cell death and cell cycle alterations as controls of these assays.

      (7) The flow data in Supplementary Figure 2 should be statistically analysed. 

      Bar graphs corresponding to the old Supplementary Fig. 2 (new Supplementary Fig. 3) are shown in Fig. 3B. We have also incorporated the corresponding statistical analysis to this figure. 

      (8) In general, the authors should revise the figure legends to ensure that critical details are added. 

      We have carefully revised all the figure legends in the new version of the manuscript.

      (9) Bar plots are very poor in showing the heterogeneity of the data. Individual data points should be shown whenever feasible. Superplot-type of representation is strongly advised (https://doi.org/10.1083/jcb.202001064).

      We have carefully read the paper published by Lord S.J. and col. (Lord S. J. et al., J. Cell Biol. 2020) and we apply their recommendations for our TIRF-M data (see revised Fig.  2).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      - The title may not reflect the key finding of the paper. It is well established in the field that the disaggregation process is sensitive to perturbations of the levels of the disaggregating factors.

      We have changed the title to better reflect the major finding of the work, the importance of the NEF during the initiation of disaggregation. The new title is: Early Steps of Protein Disaggregation by Hsp70 Chaperone and Class B J-Domain Proteins are Shaped by Hsp110.

      - Abstract:

      Please note that the phrases "stimulation is much limited with class A JDPs", "limited destabilization of the chaperone complex improves disaggregation", and "tuned proportion between the co-chaperones" are hard to understand. Only after having read the manuscript are the meanings of these phrases accessible.

      The phrases in the abstract were changed (page 1, lines 10-14).

      - The subheading "Sse1 improves aggregate modification by Hsp70" on p. 7 is unclear. What is measured is a decrease in aggregate size dependent on Hsp70-JDP as well as Sse1.

      The subheading was changed to include more precise information, into “Sse1 leads to Hsp70-depenent reduction of aggregate size”.

      - The subheading "Biphasic effects of Sse1 on the Hsp70 disaggregation activity" does not describe the finding clearly; "Biphasic effects" is a term that is hard to understand.

      To avoid phrases that can be understood in many ways, we have changed the subheading into “Hormetic effects of Sse1 in Hsp70 disaggregation activity”

      - p.5, last line. Hsp110 typo The typos have been corrected.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) The article emphasises multiple times the importance of stoichiometry between the (co-)chaperones. Most figures would benefit from an indication of the used stoichiometry (or all absolute concentrations) to support the points made about the stoichiometry, especially the figures showing titrations of Sse1, Sse1-2, and Sis1 (Fig. 3D, 3E, 4A-C, S2B, S5F, S6A-E).

      The information of protein concentrations has been included in all figure captions.

      (2) The manuscript includes a summary model. While this model is a plausible hypothesis of the mechanism of disaggregation by Hsp70, in particular when viewed with previous data (Wyszkowski et al., 2021), it focuses rather heavily on the potential remodeling of clients by Hsp70, which is not the primary focus of the data presented in this manuscript. More emphasis could be put on the JDP class/ functional specificity observed.

      The model has been changed according to the Reviewer’s comments to better reflect the findings presented in the manuscript (Figure 5).

      (3) The methods section is very brief. I recommend including additional details about reaction conditions (temperature, buffer compositions, protein concentrations) even when previously reported elsewhere to improve the readability of the manuscript. Details regarding the DLS experiments performed are missing.

      More detailed information on the experimental conditions has been added to the Methods section, as well as to figure legends.

      (4) Many experiments incorporate BLI to assess the effect of NEFs on the binding of the Hsp70 and JDP to aggregates. Although appropriate controls are included (no ATP, Hsp70, and JDP only), a control with only Hsp70 and the NEF would be useful to determine to which extent the NEF itself alters the thickness of the (Hsp70-bound) aggregate biolayer.

      The suggested controls were added (Figure 1—figure supplement 1 G) and discussed in the manuscript (page 5, lines 23-24).

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      - The refolding assay makes use of Luciferase denatured in 5 M GdnHCl. These conditions lead to a spontaneous refolding yield of 20% (Figure 3C), which is very high and limits conclusions on the effect of Hsp110 but also JDPs on the refolding process. Typically this assay uses 6 M GdnHCl for Luciferase denaturation and under these conditions, spontaneous refolding of Luciferase is hardly observed (e.g. Laufen et al. PNAS 1999). The authors are therefore asked to repeat key experiments using altered (6M) GdnHCl concentrations.

      We based our experiments assessing luciferase refolding on the publication by Imamoglu et al. (2020), in which the authors, using 5 M GdnHCl for luciferase denaturation, demonstrated that spontaneous and chaperone-assisted luciferase refolding strongly depends on luciferase concentration. In this work, a similar degree of luciferase refolding was reported for the same final luciferase concentration (100 nM) as we used in our experiments (Figure 1—figure supplement 1D). As an additional control, we compared the effects of 5 M and 6 M of GdnHCl during denaturation on luciferase refolding under the same conditions (100 nM, 25 °C, 2 h) and we observed no significant differences (Author response image 1).

      Author response image 1.

      Chaperone-assisted folding of luciferase after denaturation at 5 M or 6 M GdnHCl. Luciferase was denatured in 5 M or 6 M GdnHCl according to the protocol in the Materials and Methods section. Luminescence was monitored alone or after incubation with Luminescence was monitored alone or after incubation with Ssa1-Sis1 or Ssa1-Ydj1. Chaperones were used at 1 µM concentration. Luciferase activity was measured after 2 hours and normalized to the activity of the native protein. Error bars indicate SD from three repeats.

      - Figure 1B: The authors are asked to provide binding curves for Ssa1/Sse1 (no Sis1) and Sis1/Sse1 (no Ssa1) as controls. Particularly the latter combination is required as direct cooperation between Hsp110 and JDPs has been suggested in the literature (Mattoo et al., JBC 2013).

      We performed the suggested BLI experiment, and the results are presented in the new Figure 1—figure supplement 1 G (page 5, lines 23-24).

      - Figure 1B (and other figure parts showing BLI data): it is unclear how often the BLI experiments have been performed. This should be stated in the figure legend. Can the authors add SDs to the respective curves?

      We added detailed information about the number of replicates to the figure legends. SD bars were added to the BLI results shown in Figures1-4, apart from the results of titrations, for which, for the sake of clarity, the three replicates are represented in the plots on the right (Figure 3D). In the case of less than 3 repeats of the results presented in the Supplementary Figures, the remaining repeats are added to the provided Source Data file, information about which has been added to the captions of the respective figures. 

      - The observation that Hsp110 can interrupt Hsp70 interaction with JDPs is intriguing. Do the authors envision JDP displacement from the aggregate? If so this could be shown in BLI experiments by monitoring the release of fluorescently labeled Sis1 (similar to labeled Ssa1, Fig. S3C). Or will the released JDP immediately rebind to another binding site on the aggregate? The authors should at least discuss the diverse scenarios as they are relevant to the mechanism of protein disaggregation.

      The proposed experiment is challenging due to the transient nature of Sis1 binding to aggregate and high background observed with the method using the fluorescently labelled proteins. The aspect of chaperone’s re-binding after their release by Hsp110 proposed by the reviewer has been introduced into the Discussion section (pages 12/13, lines 25-4). We speculate that Hsp110 might release an Hsp70 molecule as well as a JDP molecule that had been bound to the aggregate through Hsp70 (Figure 5).  

      - Figure 2B: Ssa1/Sis1/Sse1 strongly decreases the size of Luciferase-GFP aggregates. Yet this activity only allows for limited refolding of aggregated Luciferase and the reaction stays largely dependent on Hsp104. How do the authors envision the role of the hexameric disaggregase in this process? Does it act exclusively on small-sized aggregates after Hsp110-dependent fragmentation?

      A question of the Hsp104 activity with the Hsp70-processed aggregates is indeed intriguing and we agree that it should have been discussed more thoroughly. We added to the manuscript the results of the reactivation of luciferase-GFP with and without Hsp104 to emphasize the role of Hsp104 in the active protein recovery (Figure 2—figure supplement 1A) (page 7, lines 24-27). We propose that aggregate fragmentation by Hsp70-JDPB-Hsp110 increases the effective aggregate surface, at which Hsp104 might become engaged. We do not think that Hsp104 acts only on small aggregates, it might be just more effective, when the number of exposed polypeptides is larger. In the cell, where Hsp104 binds to aggregates of various sizes, protein aggregates apparently also need to undergo such Hsp110-boosted pre-processing by Hsp70, based on the finding that Sse1 is not necessary for Hsp104 recruitment to aggregates, but it is required for Hsp104-dependent disaggregation (Kaimal et al., 2017). We have added a comment on this problem to the Discussion section (pages 11/12, lines 33-4) .

      - Page 9: The authors state that the Sse1-2 variant is nearly as effective as Sse1 Wt in stimulating substrate dissociation and refer to published work (Polier et al., 2008). It is unclear how the variant should have Wtlike activity in triggering substrate release although its activity in catalyzing nucleotide exchange is reduced to 5% (both activities are coupled). The observation that high Sse1-2 concentrations do not inhibit protein disaggregation does not necessarily exclude the possibility that high Sse1 WT concentration inhibit the reaction by overstimulating substrate release. The latter possibility should be considered by the authors and added to the discussion section.

      We agree with the Reviewer that the description of the Sse1-2 variant was misleading, as it was lacking the key information, that according to the published data (Polier et al., 2008), it was 10 times higher the concentration of the Sse1-2 variant than Sse1 WT that had a similar nucleotide-exchange activity to the wild type. We have changed the text (page 9, lines 16-22, page 13, lines 26-28) to avoid confusion as well as the model in the Figure 5, to underline the importance of substrate release as the cause of the Hsp110-dependent inhibition.

      - While similar effects are observed for human class A and class B JDP co-chaperones, they are clearly less pronounced. A mechanistic explanation for the difference between yeast and human chaperones is currently missing and the authors are asked to elaborate on this aspect.

      There are indeed clear differences between the human and yeasts systems, especially regarding the dependence on the NEF. Hsc70 has been reported to have a lower rate of ADP release (Dragovic et al., 2006) and thus might rely more on Hsp110 than its yeast ortholog. For the same reason, the strong Hsc70 stimulation by Hsp105 is also observed with class A JDP. We have added a comment on these effects in the Discussion section (page 12, lines 17-21).

      Minor points

      - Figure S1C (right): the disaggregation rate (%GFP/h) is somewhat misleading/confusing as a value of more than 150%/h is determined in the presence of the complete disaggregation system while only approx. 60% GFP is indeed refolded by the system (Figure S1C, left). Showing the rate as %GFP/min seems more rational.

      We changed the units according to the Reviewer’s comment (Figure 1—figure supplement 1A, C).

      - Figure S5B: Only a single data point is shown for Ssa1/Sis1/Sse1.

      We changed the figure to include datapoints from all three repeats (Figure 3—figure supplement 1 B).

      - There are several typos throughout the manuscript. A more careful proofreading is recommended

      We have corrected the typos.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The experiments differ somewhat in regard to the aggregated protein used. For example, in Figure 1A, FFL is used with only limited reactivation (10% reactivated at the last timepoint and the curve is flattening), while in Figure 2B FFL-EGFP is used to monitor microscopically what appears to be complete disaggregation. Does FFL-EGFP behave the same as FFL in assays such as the one in Figure 1A or are there major differences that may impact how the data should be interpreted?

      We added the results of Luc-GFP reactivation (Figure 2—figure supplement 1 B) (discussed on page 7, lines 24-27 of the manuscipt) which agree with the results obtain with Luciferase as a substrate (Figure 1—figure supplement 1 B). They clearly show that the Ssa1-Sis1-Sse1-dependent decrease in aggregate size is not associated with the recovery of active protein.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Experimental data concerning the class A JDPs should be interpreted with caution. These experiments show very small reactivation activities for luciferase in the range of 0-1% without the addition of Hsp104 and 0-15% with the addition of Hsp104. Moreover, since the assay is based on the recovery of luciferase activity, it conflates two chaperone activities, namely disaggregation and refolding. It is possible that the small degree of reactivation observed for the class A JDP reflects a minor subpopulation of the aggregated species that is particularly easy to disaggregate/refold and may thus not be representative of bulk behaviour.

      The disaggregation by the Hsp70 system can be enhanced by the addition of small heat shock proteins at the step of substrate aggregation (Rampelt et al., 2012). However, sHsps compete with Hsp70 for binding to the aggregate (Żwirowski et al., 2017) and for that reason we decided not to include sHsps in the experiments presented in the manuscript, as it would introduce another level of complexity. However, as a control, we performed the disaggregation assay with Hsp70 with Ydj1 using luciferase aggregates formed in the presence or absence of sHsp (Author response image 2). In 1 h, the Hsp70 system without Hsp104 yielded 5% of recovered luciferase activity and the system with Hsp104, 23% compared to the native. The impact of Sse1 on Ssa1-Ydj1 and Ssa1-Ydj1-Hsp104 was similar as for luciferase aggregates formed without sHsps (Figure 1A, Figure 1—figure supplement 1 B). Furthermore, according to the Reviewer’s comment, we have changed the Figure 5 to underscore the more prominent role of class A JDPs in the final protein folding than in disaggregation.

      Author response image 2.

      Disaggregaton of heat-aggregated luciferase – impact of sHsps. Luciferase (2 μM) was denatured with (blue) or without (red) Hsp26 (20 μM) at 45 ̊C for 15 min in the buffer A (Materials and Methods). Upon 100-fold dilution with the buffer A, supplemented wih 5 mM ATP, 2 mM DTT, 1.2 μM creatine kinase, 20 mM creatine phosphate, chaperones indicated in the legend were added to the final concentration of 1 μM, except for Sse1, concentration of which was 0.1 μM. Shown is luciferase activity measured after 1 h of incubation at 25 °C, normalized to the activity of native luciferase.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Enhanced recruitment of Hsp70 in the presence of Hsp110 was shown for amyloid fibrils before (Beton et al., EMBO J 2022) and should be acknowledged. 

      We have added the suggested citation with a respective comment (page 11, lines 20-21).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This paper details a study of endothelial cell vessel formation during zebrafish development. The results focus on the role of aquaporins, which mediate the flow of water across the cell membrane, leading to cell movement. The authors show that actin and water flow together drive endothelial cell migration and vessel formation. If any of these two elements are perturbed, there are observed defects in vessels. Overall, the paper significantly improves our understanding of cell migration during morphogenesis in organisms.

      Strengths:

      The data are extensive and are of high quality. There is a good amount of quantification with convincing statistical significance. The overall conclusion is justified given the evidence.

      Weaknesses:

      There are two weaknesses, which if addressed, would improve the paper.

      (1) The paper focuses on aquaporins, which while mediates water flow, cannot drive directional water flow. If the osmotic engine model is correct, then ion channels such as NHE1 are the driving force for water flow. Indeed this water is shown in previous studies. Moreover, NHE1 can drive water intake because the export of H+ leads to increased HCO3 due to the reaction between CO2+H2O, which increases the cytoplasmic osmolarity (see Li, Zhou and Sun, Frontiers in Cell Dev. Bio. 2021). If NHE cannot be easily perturbed in zebrafish, it might be of interest to perturb Cl channels such as SWELL1, which was recently shown to work together with NHE (see Zhang, et al, Nat. Comm. 2022).

      (2) In some places the discussion seems a little confusing where the text goes from hydrostatic pressure to osmotic gradient. It might improve the paper if some background is given. For example, mention water flow follows osmotic gradients, which will build up hydrostatic pressure. The osmotic gradients across the membrane are generated by active ion exchangers. This point is often confused in literature and somewhere in the intro, this could be made clearer.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) The paper focuses on aquaporins, which while mediating water flow, cannot drive directional water flow. If the osmotic engine model is correct, then ion channels such as NHE1 are the driving force for water flow. Indeed this water is shown in previous studies. Moreover, NHE1 can drive water intake because the export of H+ leads to increased HCO3 due to the reaction between CO2+H2O, which increases the cytoplasmic osmolarity (see Li, Zhou and Sun, Frontiers in Cell Dev. Bio. 2021). If NHE cannot be easily perturbed in zebrafish, it might be of interest to perturb Cl channels such as SWELL1, which was recently shown to work together with NHE (see Zhang, et al, Nat. Comm. 2022).

      We thank Reviewer #1 for this very important comment and the suggestion to examine the function of ion channels in establishing an osmotic gradient to drive directional flow. We have taken on board the reviewer’s suggestion and examined the expression of NHE1 and SWELL1 in endothelial cells using published scRNAseq of 24 hpf ECs (Gurung et al, 2022, Sci. Rep.). We found that slc9a1a, slc9a6a, slc9a7, slc9a8, lrrc8aa and lrrc8ab are expressed in different endothelial subtypes. To examine the function of NHE1 and SWELL1 in endothelial cell migration, we used the pharmacological compounds, 5-(N-ethyl-Nisopropyl)amiloride (EIPA) and DCPIB, respectively. While we were unable to observe an ISV phenotype after EIPA treatment at 5, 10 and 50µM, we were able to observe impaired ISV formation after DCPIB treatment that was very similar to that observed in Aquaporin mutants. We were very encouraged by these results and proceeded to perform more detailed experiments whose results have yielded a new figure (Figure 6) and are described and discussed in lines 266 to 289 and 396 to 407, respectively, in the revised manuscript.

      (2) In some places the discussion seems a little confusing where the text goes from hydrostatic pressure to osmotic gradient. It might improve the paper if some background is given. For example, mention water flow follows osmotic gradients, which will build up hydrostatic pressure. The osmotic gradients across the membrane are generated by active ion exchangers. This point is often confused in literature and somewhere in the intro, this could be made clearer.

      Thank you for pointing out the deficiency in explaining how osmotic gradients drive water flow to build up hydrostatic pressure. We have clarified this in lines 50, 53 - 54 and 385.

      The two recommendations listed above would improve the paper. They are however not mandatory. The paper would be acceptable with some clarifying rewrites. I am not an expert on zebrafish genetics, so it might be difficult to perturb ion channels in this model organism. Have the authors tried to perturb ion channels in these cells?

      We hope that our attempts at addressing Reviewer’s 1 comments are satisfactory and sufficient to clarify the concerns outlined.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Directional migration is an integral aspect of sprouting angiogenesis and requires a cell to change its shape and sense a chemotactic or growth factor stimulus. Kondrychyn I. et al. provide data that indicate a requirement for zebrafish aquaporins 1 and 8, in cellular water inflow and sprouting angiogenesis. Zebrafish mutants lacking aqp1a.1 and aqp8a.1 have significantly lower tip cell volume and migration velocity, which delays vascular development. Inhibition of actin formation and filopodia dynamics further aggravates this phenotype. The link between water inflow, hydrostatic pressure, and actin dynamics driving endothelial cell sprouting and migration during angiogenesis is highly novel.

      Strengths:

      The zebrafish genetics, microscopy imaging, and measurements performed are of very high quality. The study data and interpretations are very well-presented in this manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      Some of the mechanobiology findings and interpretations could be strengthened by more advanced measurements and experimental manipulations. Also, a better comparison and integration of the authors' findings, with other previously published findings in mice and zebrafish would strengthen the paper.

      We thank Reviewer #2 for the critique that the paper can be strengthened by more advanced measurements and experimental manipulations. One of the technical challenges that we face is how to visualize and measure water flow directly in the zebrafish. We have therefore taken indirect approaches to assess water abundance in endothelial cells in vivo. One approach was to measure the diffusion of GEM nanoparticles in tip cell cytoplasm in wildtype and Aquaporin mutants, but results were inconclusive. The second was to measure the volume of tip cells, which should reflect water in/outflow. As the second approach produced clear and robust differences between wildtype ECs, ECs lacking Aqp1a.1 and Aqp8a.1 and ECs overexpressing Aqp1a.1 (revised Fig. 5), we decided to present these data in this manuscript.

      We have also taken Reviewer 2 advice to better incorporate previously published data in our discussion (see below and lines 374 to 383 of the revised manuscript).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I have a few comments that the authors may address to further improve their manuscript analysis, quality, and impact.

      Major comments:

      (1) Citation and discussion of published literature

      The authors have failed to cite and discuss recently published results on the role of aqp1a.1 and aqp8a.1 in ISV formation and caliber in zebrafish (Chen C et al. Cardiovascular Research 2024). That study showed a similar impairment of ISV formation when aqp1a.1 is absent but demonstrated a stronger phenotype on ISV morphology in the absence of aqp8a.1 than the current manuscript by Kondrychyn I et al. Furthermore, Chen C et al show an overall decrease in ISV diameter in single aquaporin mutants suggesting that the cell volume of all ECs in an ISV is affected equally. Given this published data, are ISV diameters affected in single and double mutants in the current study by Kondrochyn I et al? An overall effect on ISVs would suggest that aquaporin-mediated cell volume changes are not an inherent feature of endothelial tip cells. The authors need to analyse/compare and discuss all differences and similarities of their findings to what has been published recently.

      We apologise for having failed and discussed the recently published paper by Chen et al. This has been corrected and discussed in lines 374 to 383.

      In the paper by Chen et al, the authors describe a role of Aqp1a.1 and Aqp8a.1 in regulating ISV diameter (ISV diameter was analysed at 48 hpf) but they did not examine the earlier stages of sprouting angiogenesis between 20 to 30 hpf, which is the focus of our study. We therefore cannot directly compare the ISV phenotypes with theirs. Nevertheless, we recognise that there are differences in ISV phenotypes from 2 dpf. For example, they did not observe incompletely formed or missing ISVs at 2 and 3 dpf, which we clearly observe in our study. This could be explained by differences in the mutations generated. In Chen et al., the sgRNA used targeted the end of exon 2 that resulted in the generation of a 169 amino acid truncated aqp1a.1 protein. However, in our approach, our sgRNA targeted exon 1 of the gene that resulted in a truncated aqp1a.1 protein that is 76 amino acid long. As for the aqp8a.1 zebrafish mutant that we generated, our sgRNA targeted exon 1 of the gene that resulted in a truncated protein that is 73 amino acids long. In Chen et al., the authors did not generate an aqp8a.1 mutant but instead used a crispant approach, which leads to genetic mosaicism and high experimental variability.

      Following the reviewer’s suggestion, we have now measured the diameters of arterial ISVs (aISVs) and venous ISVs (vISVs) in aqp1a.1<sup>-/-</sup>, aqp8a.1<sup>-/-</sup> and aqp1a.1<sup>-/-</sup>;aqp8a.1<sup>-/-</sup> zebrafish. In our lab, we always make a distinction between aISVs and vISVs are their diameters are significantly different from each other. The results are in Fig S11A. While we corroborate a decrease in diameter in both aISVs and vISVs in single aqp1a.1<sup>-/-</sup> and double aqp1a.1<sup>-/-</sup>;aqp8a.1<sup>-/-</sup>.zebrafish, we observed a slight increase in diameter in both aISVs and vISVs in aqp8a.1<sup>-/-</sup> zebrafish at 2 dpf. We also measured the diameter of aISV and vISV in Tg(fli1ep:aqp1a.1-mEmerald) and Tg(fli1ep:aqp8a.1-mEmerald) zebrafish at 2 dpf (Fig S11B) and unlike in Chen et al., we could not detect a difference in the diameter between control and aqp1a.1- or aqp8a.1-overexpressing endothelial cells.

      We also would also like to point out that, because ISVs are incompletely formed or are missing in aqp1a.1<sup>-/-</sup>;aqp8a.1<sup>-/-</sup> zebrafish (Fig. 3G – L), blood flow is most likely altered in the zebrafish trunk of these mutants, and this can have a secondary effect on blood vessel calibre or diameter. In fact, we often observed wider ISVs adjacent to unperfused ISVs (Fig. 3J) as more blood flow enters the lumenized ISV. Therefore, to determine the cell autonomous function of Aquaporin in mediating cell volume changes in vessel diameter regulation, one would need to perform cell transplantation experiments where we would measure the volume of single aqp1a.1<sup>-/-</sup>;aqp8a.1<sup>-/-</sup> endothelial cells in wildtype embryos with normal blood flow. As this is beyond the scope of the present study, we have not done this experiment during the revision process.

      (2) Expression of aqp1a.1 and aqp8a.1

      The quantification shown in Figure 1G shows a relative abundance of expression between tip and stalk cells. However, it seems aqp8a.1 is almost never detected in most tip cells. The authors could show in addition, the % of Tip and stalk cells with detectable expression of the 2 aquaporins. It seems aqp8a1 is really weakly or not expressed in the initial stages. Ofcourse the protein may have a different dynamic from the RNA.

      We would like to clarify that aqp8a.1 mRNA is not detected in tip cells of newly formed ISVs at 20hpf. At 22 hpf, it is expressed in both tip cells (22 out of 23 tip cells analysed) and stalk cells of ISVs at 22hpf. This is clarified in lines 107 - 109. We also include below a graph showing that although aqp8a.1 mRNA is expressed in tip cells, its expression is higher in stalk cells.

      Author response image 1.

      Could the authors show endogenously expressed or tagged protein by antibody staining? The analysis of the Tg(fli1ep:aqp8a.1-mEmerald)rk31 zebrafish line is a good complement, but unfortunately, it does not reveal the localization of the endogenously expressed protein. Do the authors have any data supporting that the endogenously expressed aqp8a.1 protein is present in sprouting tip cells?

      We tested several antibodies against AQP1 (Alpha Diagnostic International, AQP11-A; ThermoFisher Scientific, MA1-20214; Alomone Labs, AQP-001) and AQP8 (Sigma Aldrich, SAB 1403559; Alpha Diagnostic International, AQP81-A; Almone Labs, AQP-008) but unfortunately none worked. As such, we do not have data demonstrating endogenous expression and localisation of Aqp1a.1 and Aqp8a.1 proteins in endothelial cells.

      Could the authors perform F0 CRISPR/Cas9 mediated knockin of a small tag (i.e. HA epitope) in zebrafish and read the endogenous protein localization with anti-HA Ab?

      CRISPR/Cas9 mediated in-frame knock-in of a tag into a genomic locus is a technical challenge that our lab has not established. We therefore cannot do this experiment within the revision period.

      Given the double mutant phenotypic data shown, is aqp8a.1 expression upregulated and perhaps more important in aqp1a.1 mutants?

      In our analysis of aqp1a.1 homozygous zebrafish, there is a slight down_regulation in _aqp8a.1 expression (Fig. S5C). Because the loss of Aqp1a.1 leads to a stronger impairment in ISV formation than the loss of Aqp8a.1 (see Fig. S6F, G, I and J), we believe that Aqp1a.1 has a stronger function than Aqp8a.1 in EC migration during sprouting angiogenesis.

      Regarding the regulation of expression by the Vegfr inhibitor Ki8751, does this inhibitor affect Vegfr/ERK signalling in zebrafish and the sprouting of ISVs significantly?

      ki8751 has been demonstrated to inhibit ERK signalling in tip cells in the zebrafish by Costa et al., 2016 in Nature Cell Biology. In our experiments, treatment with 5 µM ki8751 for 6 hours from 20 hpf also inhibited sprouting of ISVs.

      The data presented suggest that tip cells overexpressing aqp1a.1-mEmerald (Figure 2C) need more than 6 times longer to migrate the same distance as tip cells expressing aqp8a.1mEmerald (Figure 2D). How does this compare with cells expressing only Emerald? A similar time difference can be seen in Movie S1 and Movie S2. Is it just a coincidence? Could aqp8a.1, when expressed at similar levels than aqp1a, be more functional and induce faster cell migration? These experiments were interpreted only for the localization of the proteins, but not for the potential role of the overexpressed proteins on function. Chen C et al. Cardiovascular Research 2024 also has some Aqp overexpression data.

      The still images prepared for Fig. 2 C and D were selected to illustrate the localization of Aqp1a.1-mEmerald and Aqp8a.1-mEmerald at the leading edge of migrating tip cells. We did not notice that the tip cell overexpressing Aqp1a.1-mEmerald (Figure 2C) needed more than 6 times longer to migrate the same distance as the tip cell expressing aqp8a.1-mEmerald (Figure 2D), which the reviewer astutely detected. To ascertain whether there is a difference in migration speed between Aqp1a.1-mEmerald and Aqp8a.1-mEmerald overexpressing endothelial cells, we measured tip cell migration velocity of three ISVs from Tg(fli1ep:aqp1a.1-mEmerald) and Tg(fli1ep:aqp8a.1-mEmerald) zebrafish during the period of ISV formation (24 to 29 hpf) using the Manual Tracking plugin in Fiji. As shown in the graph, there is no significant difference in the migration speed of ECs overexpressing Aqp1a.1-mEmerald and Aqp8a.1-mEmerald, suggesting that Aqp8a.1-overexpressing cells migrate at a similar rate as Aqp1a.1-overexpressing cells. As we have not generated a Tg(fli1ep:mEmerald) zebrafish line, we are unable to determine whether endothelial cells migrate faster in Tg(fli1ep:aqp1a.1mEmerald) and Tg(fli1ep:aqp8a.1-mEmerald) zebrafish compared to endothelial cell expressing only mEmerald. As for the observation that tip cells overexpressing aqp1a.1mEmerald (Figure 2C) need more than 6 times longer to migrate the same distance as tip cells expressing aqp8a.1-mEmerald, we can only surmise that it is coincidental that the images selected “showed” faster migration of one ISV from Tg(fli1ep:aqp8a.1-mEmerald) zebrafish. We do not know whether the Aqp1a.1 and Aqp8a.1 are overexpressed to the same levels in Tg(fli1ep:aqp1a.1mEmerald) and Tg(fli1ep:aqp8a.1-mEmerald) zebrafish.

      We would also like to point out that when we analysed the lengths of ISVs at 28 hpf in aqp1a.1<sup>-/-</sup> and aqp8a.1<sup>-/-</sup> zebrafish, ISVs were shorter in aqp1a.1<sup>-/-</sup> zebrafish compared to aqp8a.1<sup>-/-</sup> zebrafish (Fig. S6 F to J). These results indicate that the loss of Aqp1a.1 function causes slower migration than the loss of aqp8a.1 function, and suggest that Aqp1a.1 induces faster endothelial cell migration that Aqp8a.1.

      Author response image 2.

      The data on Aqps expression after the Notch inhibitor DBZ seems unnecessary, and is at the moment not properly discussed. It is also against what is set in the field. aqp8a.1 levels seem to increase only 24h after DBZ, not at 6h, and still authors conclude that Notch activation inhibits aqp8a.1 expression (Line 138-139). In the field, Notch is considered to be more active in stalk cells, where aqp8a.1 expression seems higher (not lower). Maybe the analysis of tip vs stalk cell markers in the scRNAseq data, and their correlation with Hes1/Hey1/Hey2 and aqp1 vs aqp8 mRNA levels will be more clear than just showing qRT-PCR data after DBZ.

      As our scRNAseq data did not include ECs from earlier during development when ISVs are developing, we have analysed of scRNAseq data of 24 hpf endothelial cells published by Gurung et al, 2022 in Scientific Reports during the revision of this manuscript. However, we are unable to detect separate clusters of tip and stalk cells. As such, we are unable to correlate hes1/hey1/hey2 expression (which would be higher in stalk cells) with that of aqp1a.1/aqp8a.1. Also, we have decided to remove the DBZ-treatment results from our manuscript as we agree with the two reviewers that they are unnecessary.

      The paper would also benefit from some more analysis and interpretation of available scRNAseq data in development/injury/disease/angiogenesis models (zebrafish, mice or humans) for the aquaporin genes characterized here. To potentially raise a broader interest at the start of the paper.

      We thank the reviewer for suggesting examining aquaporin genes in other angiogenesis/disease/regeneration models to expand the scope of aquaporin function. We will do this in future studies.

      (3) Role of aqp1a.1 and aqp8a.1 on cytoplasmic volume changes and related phenotypes

      In Figure 5 the authors show that Aqp1/Aqp8 mutant endothelial tip cells have a lower cytoplasmic volume than tip cells from wildtype fish. If aquaporin-mediated water inflow occurs locally at the leading edge of endothelial tip cells (Figure 2, line 314-318), why doesn't cytoplasmic volume expand specifically only at that location (as shown in immune cells by Boer et al. 2023)? Can the observed reduction in cytoplasmic volume simply be a side-effect of impaired filopodia formation (Figure 4F-I)?

      We believe that water influx not only expands filopodia but also the leading front of tip cells (see bracket region in Fig. 4D), where Aqp1a.1-mEmerald/Aqp8a.1-mEmerald accumulate (Fig. 2), to generate an elongated protrusion and forward expansion of the tip cell. The decrease in cytoplasmic volume observed in the aqp1a.1;aqp8a.1 double mutant zebrafish is a result of decreased formation of these elongated protrusions at the leading front of migration tip cells as shown in Fig. 4E (compare to Fig. 4D), not from just a decrease in filopodia number. In fact, in the method used to quantify cell volume, mEmerald/EGFP localization is limited to the cytoplasm and does not label filopodia well (compare mEmerald/EGFP in green with membrane tagged-mCherry in Fig. 5A - C). The volume measured therefore reflects cytoplasmic volume of the tip cell, not filopodia volume.

      Do the authors have data on cytoplasmic volume changes of endothelial tip cells in latrunculin B treated fish? The images in Figures 6 A,B suggest that there is a difference in cell volume upon lat b treatment only.

      No, unfortunately we have not performed single cell labelling and measurement of tip cells in Latrunculin B-treated embryos. We can speculate that as there is a decrease in actindriven membrane protrusions in this experiment, one would also expect a decrease in cell volume as the reviewer has observed.

      (4) Combined loss of aquaporins and actin-based force generation.

      Lines 331-332 " we show that hydrostatic pressure is the driving force for EC migration in the absence of actin-based force generation"....better leave it more open and stick to the data. The authors show that aquaporin-mediated water inflow partially compensates for the loss of actin-based force generation in cell migration. Not that it is the key driving/rescuing force in the absence of actin-based force.

      We have changed it to “we show that hydrostatic pressure can generate force for EC migration in the absence of actin-based force generation” in line 348.

      (5) Aquaporins and their role in EC proliferation

      In the study by Phnk LK et al. 2013, the authors have shown that proliferation is not affected when actin polymerization or filopodia formation is inhibited. However, in the current manuscript by Kondrychyn I. et al. this has not been analysed carefully. In Movie S4 the authors indicate by arrows tip cells that fail to invade the zebrafish trunk demonstrating a severe defect of sprouting initiation in these mutants. Yet, when only looking at ISVs that reach the dorsal side in Movie S4, it appears that they are comprised of fewer EC nuclei/ISV than the ISVs in Movie S3. At the beginning of DLAV formation, most ISVs in control Movie S3 consist of 3-4 EC nuclei, while in double mutants Movie S4 it appears to be only 2-3 EC nuclei. At the end of the Movie S4, one ISV on the left side even appears to consist of only a single EC when touching the dorsal roof. The authors provide convincing data on how the absence of aquaporin channels affects sprouting initiation and migration speed, resulting in severe delay in ISV formation. However, the authors should also analyse EC proliferation, as it may also be affected in these mutants, and may also contribute to the observed phenotype. We know that effects on cell migration may indirectly change the number of cells and proliferation at the ISVs, but this has not been carefully analysed in this paper.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting the lack of information on EC number and division in the aquaporin mutants. We have now quantified EC number in ISVs that are fully formed (i.e. connecting the DA or PCV to the DLAV) at 2 and 3 dpf and the results are displayed in Figure S10A and B. At 2 dpf, there is a slight but significant reduction in EC number in both aISVs and vISVs in aqp1a.1<sup>-/-</sup> zebrafish and an even greater reduction in the double aqp1a. aqp1a.1<sup>/-</sup>;aqp8a.1<sup>-/-</sup> zebrafish. No significant change in EC number was observed in aqp8a.1<sup>-/-</sup> zebrafish. EC number was also significantly decreased at 3 dpf for aqp1a.1<sup>-/-</sup>, aqp8a.1<sup>-/-</sup> and aqp1a.1<sup>-/-</sup>;aqp8a.1<sup>-/-</sup> zebrafish. The decreased in EC number per ISV may therefore contribute to the observed phenotype.

      We have also quantified the number of cell divisions during sprouting angiogenesis (from 21 to 30 hpf) to assess whether the lack of Aquaporin function affects EC proliferation. This analysis shows that there is no significant difference in the number of mitotic events between aqp1a.1<sup>+/-</sup>; aqp8a.1<sup>+/-</sup> and aqp1a.1<sup>-/-</sup>;aqp8a.1<sup>-/-</sup> zebrafish (Figure S10 C), suggesting that the reduction in EC number is not caused by a decrease in EC proliferation.

      These new data are reported on lines 198 to 205 of the manuscript.

      Minor comments:

      - Figure 3K data seems not to be necessary and even partially misleading after seeing Figure 3E. Fig. 3E represents the true strength of the phenotype in the different mutants.

      Figure 3K has been removed from Figure 3.

      - Typo Figure 3L (VII should be VI).

      Thank you for spotting this typo. VII has been changed to VI.

      - Line 242: The word "required" is too strong because there is vessel formation without Aqps in endothelial cells.

      This has been changed to “ …Aqp1a.1 and Aqp8a.1 regulate sprouting angiogenesis…” (lines 238 - 239).

      - From Figure S2, the doublets cluster should be removed.

      We have performed a new analysis of 24 hpf, 34hpf and 3 dpf endothelial cells scRNAseq data (the previous analysis did not consist of 24 hpf endothelial cells). The doublets cluster is not included in the UMAP analysis.

      - Better indicate the fluorescence markers/alleles/transgenes used for imaging in Figures 6A-D.

      The transgenic lines used for this experiment are now indicated in the figure (this figure is now Figure 7).

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Kondrychyn and colleagues describe the contribution of two Aquaporins Aqp1a.1 and Aqp8a.1 towards angiogenic sprouting in the zebrafish embryo. By whole-mount in situ hybridization, RNAscope, and scRNA-seq, they show that both genes are expressed in endothelial cells in partly overlapping spatiotemporal patterns. Pharmacological inhibition experiments indicate a requirement for VEGR2 signaling (but not Notch) in transcriptional activation.

      To assess the role of both genes during vascular development the authors generate genetic mutations. While homozygous single mutants appear normal, aqp1a.1;aqp8a.1 double mutants exhibit defects in EC sprouting and ISV formation.

      At the cellular level, the aquaporin mutants display a reduction of filopodia in number and length. Furthermore, a reduction in cell volume is observed indicating a defect in water uptake.

      The authors conclude, that polarized water uptake mediated by aquaporins is required for the initiation of endothelial sprouting and (tip) cell migration during ISV formation. They further propose that water influx increases hydrostatic pressure within the cells which may facilitate actin polymerization and formation membrane protrusions.

      Strengths:

      The authors provide a detailed analysis of Aqp1a.1 and Aqp8a.1 during blood vessel formation in vivo, using zebrafish intersomitic vessels as a model. State-of-the-art imaging demonstrates an essential role in aquaporins in different aspects of endothelial cell activation and migration during angiogenesis.

      Weaknesses:

      With respect to the connection between Aqp1/8 and actin polymerization/filopodia formation, the evidence appears preliminary and the authors' interpretation is guided by evidence from other experimental systems.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Figure 1 H, J:

      The differential response of aqp1/-8 to ki8751 vs DBZ after 6h treatment is quite obvious. Why do the authors show the effect after 24h? The effect is more likely than not indirect.

      We agree with the reviewer and we have now removed 24 hour Ki8751 treatment and all DBZ treatments from Figure 1.

      Figure 2:

      According to the authors' model anterior localization of Aqp1 protein is critical. The authors perform transient injections to mosaically express Aqp fusion proteins using an endothelial (fli1) promoter. For the interpretation, it would be helpful to also show the mCherry-CAAX channel in separate panels. From the images, it is not possible to discern how many cells we are looking at. In particular the movie in panel D may show two cells at the tip of the sprout. A marker labelling cell-cell junctions would help. Furthermore, the authors are using a strong exogenous promoter, thus potentially overexpressing the fusion protein, which may lead to mislocalization. For Aqp1a.1 an antibody has been published to work in zebrafish (e.g. Kwong et al., Plos1, 2013).

      We would like to clarify that we generated transgenic lines - Tg(fli1ep:aqp1a.1-mEmerald) and Tg(fli1ep:aqp8a.1-mEmerald) - to visualize the localization of Aqp1a.1 and Aqp8a.1 in endothelial cells, and the images displayed in Fig. 2 are from the transgenic lines (not transient, mosaic expression).

      To aid visualization and interpretation, we have now added mCherry-CAAX only channel to accompany the Aqp1a.1/Aqp8a.1-mEmerald channel in Fig. 2A and B. To discern how many cells there are in the ISVs at this stage, we have crossed Tg(fli1ep:aqp1a.1-mEmerald) and Tg(fli1ep:aqp8a.1-mEmerald) zebrafish to TgKI(tjp1a-tdTomato)<sup>pd1224</sup> (Levic et al., 2021) to visualize ZO1 at cell-cell junction. However, because tjp1-tdTomato is expressed in all cell types including the skin that lies just above the ISV and the signal in ECs in ISVs is very weak at 22 to 25 hpf, it was very difficult to obtain good quality images that can properly delineate cell boundaries to determine the number of cells in the ISVs at this early stage. Instead, we have annotated endothelial cell boundaries based on more intense mCherryCAAX fluorescence at cell-cell borders, and from the mosaic expression of mCherryCAAX that is intrinsic to the  Tg(kdrl:ras-mCherry)<sup>s916</sup> zebrafish line.

      In Fig. 2D, there are two endothelial cells in the ISV during the period shown but there is only 1 cell occupying the tip cell position i.e. there is one tip cell in this ISV. Unlike the mouse retina where it has been demonstrated that two endothelial cells can occupy the tip cell position side-by-side (Pelton et al., 2014), this is usually not observed in zebrafish ISVs. This is demonstrated in Movie S3, where it is clear that one nucleus (belonging to the tip cell) occupies the tip of the growing ISV. The accumulation of intracellular membranes is often observed in tip cells that may serve as a reservoir of membranes for the generation of membrane protrusions at the leading edge of tip cells.

      We agree that by generating transgenic Tg(fli1ep:aqp1a.1-mEmerald) and Tg(fli1ep:aqp8a.1mEmerald) zebrafish, Aqp1a.1 and Aqp8a.1 are overexpressed that may affect their localization. The eel anti-Aqp1a.1 antibody used in (Kwong et la., 2013) was a gift from Dr. Gordon Cramb, Univ. of St Andrews, Scotland and it was first published in 2001. This antibody is not available commercially. Instead, we have tried to several other antibodies against AQP1 (Alpha Diagnostic International , AQP11-A; ThermoFisher Scientific, MA120214; Alomone Labs, AQP-001) and AQP8 (Sigma Aldrich, SAB 1403559; Alpha Diagnostic International, AQP81-A; Almone Labs, AQP-008) but unfortunately none worked. As such, we cannot compare localization of Aqp1a.1-mEmerald and Aqp8a.1-mEmerald with the endogenous proteins.

      Figure 3:

      E: the quantification is difficult to read. Wouldn't it be better to set the y-axis in % of the DV axis? (see also Figure S6).

      We would like to show the absolute length of the ISVs, and to illustrate that the ISV length decreases from anterior to posterior of the zebrafish trunk. We have increased the size of Fig. 3E to enable easier reading of the bars.

      K: This quantification appears arbitrary.

      We have removed this panel from Figure 3.

      G-J: The magenta channel is difficult to see. Is the lifeact-mCherry mosaic? In panel J there appears to be a nucleus between the sprout and the DLAV. It would be helpful to crop the contralateral side of the image.

      No, the Tg(fli1:Lifeact-mCherry) line is not mosaic. The “missing” vessels are not because of mosaicism in transgene but because of truncated ISVs that is a phenotype of loss Aquaporin function. We have changed the magenta channel to grey and hope that by doing so, the reviewer will be able to see the shape of the blood vessels more clearly. We would like to leave the contralateral side in the images, as it shows that the defective vessel is only on one side of body. Furthermore, when we tried to remove it (reducing the number of Z-stacks) neighbour ISV looks incomplete because the embryos were not mounted flat. To clarify what the nucleus between the sprout and the DLAV is, we have indicated that it is that of the contralateral ISV.

      L: I do not quite understand the significance of the different classes of phenotypes. Do the authors propose different morphogenetic events or contexts of how these differences come about?

      Here, we report the different types of ISV phenotypes that we observe in 3 dpf aqp1a.1<sup>-/-</sup>; aqp8a.1<sup>-/-</sup> zebrafish (Fig. 3 and Fig. S7). As demonstrated in Fig. 4, most of the phenotypes can be explained by the delayed emergence of tip cells from the dorsal aorta and slower tip cell migration. However, in some instances, we also observed retraction of tip cells (Movie S4) and failure of tip cells to emerge from the dorsal aorta or endothelial cell death (see attached figure on page 14), which can give rise to the Class II phenotype. In the dominant class I phenotype (in contrast to class II), secondary sprouting from the posterior cardinal vein is unaffected, and the secondary sprout migrates dorsally passing the level of horizontal myoseptum but cannot complete the formation of vISV (it stops beneath the spinal cord). The Class III phenotype appears to result from a failure of the secondary sprout to fuse with the regressed primary ISV. In the Class IV phenotype, the ventral EC does not maintain a connection to the dorsal aorta. We did not examine how Class III and IV phenotypes arise in detail in this current study.

      Author response image 3.

      Figure 4:

      This figure nicely demonstrates the defects in cell behavior in aqp mutants.

      In panel F it would be helpful to show the single channels as well as the merge.

      We have now added single channels for PLCd1PH and Lifeact signal in panels F and G.

      In Figure 1 the authors argue that the reduction of Aqp1/8 by VEGFR2 inhibition may account for part of that phenotype. In turn, the aqp phenotype seems to resemble incomplete VEGFR2 inhibition. The authors should check whether expression Aqp1Emerald can partially rescue ki8751 inhibition.

      To address the reviewer’s comment, we have treated Tg(fli1ep:Aqp1-Emerald) embryos with ki8751 from 20 hpf for 6 hours but we were unable to observe a rescue in sprouting. It could be because VEGFR2 inhibition also affects other downstream signalling pathways that also control cell migration as well as proliferation.

      Based on previous studies (Loitto et al.; Papadopoulus et al.) the authors propose that also in ISVs aquaporin-mediated water influx may promote actin polymerization and thereby filopodia formation. However, while the effect on filopodia number and length is well demonstrated, the underlying cause is less clear. For example, filopodia formation could be affected by reduced cell polarization. This can be tested by using a transgenic golgi marker (Kwon et al., 2016).

      We have examined tip cell polarity of wildtype, aqp1a.1<sup>-/-</sup> and  aqp8a. 1<sup>-/-</sup> embryos at 24-26 hpf by analysing Golgi position relative to the nucleus. We were unable to analyze polarity in  aqp1a.1<sup>rk28/rk28</sup>; aqp8a.1<sup>rk29/rk29</sup> embryos as they exist in an mCherry-containing transgenic zebrafish line (the Golgi marker is also tagged to mCherry). The results show that tip cell polarity is similar, if not more polarised, in aqp1a.1<sup>-/-</sup> and  aqp8a. 1<sup>-/-</sup> embryos when compared to wildtype embryos (Fig. S10D). This new data is discussed in lines 234 to 237.

      Figure 5:

      Panel D should be part of Figure 4.

      Panel 5D is now in panel J of Figure 4 and described in lines 231 and 235.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1:

      People can perform a wide variety of different tasks, and a long-standing question in cognitive neuroscience is how the properties of different tasks are represented in the brain. The authors develop an interesting task that mixes two different sources of difficulty, and find that the brain appears to represent this mixture on a continuum, in the prefrontal areas involved in resolving task difficulty. While these results are interesting and in several ways compelling, they overlap with previous findings and rely on novel statistical analyses that may require further validation.

      Strengths

      1) The authors present an interesting and novel task for combining the contributions of stimulus-stimulus and stimulus-response conflict. While this mixture has been measured in the multi-source interference task (MSIT), this task provides a more graded mixture between these two sources of difficulty

      2) The authors do a good job triangulating regions that encoding conflict similarity, looking for the conjunction across several different measures of conflict encoding

      3) The authors quantify several salient alternative hypothesis and systematically distinguish their core results from these alternatives

      4) The question that the authors tackle is of central theoretical importance to cognitive control, and they make an interesting an interesting contribution to this question

      We would like to thank the reviewer for the positive evaluation of our manuscript and the constructive comments and suggestions. Your feedback has been invaluable in our efforts to enhance the accessibility of our manuscript and strengthen our findings. In response to your suggestion, we reanalyzed our data using the approach proposed by Chen et al.’s (2017, NeuroImage) and applied stricter multiple comparison correction thresholds in our reporting. This reanalysis largely replicated our previous results, thereby reinforcing the robustness of our findings. We also have examined several alternative models and results supported the integration of the spatial Stroop and Simon conflicts within the cognitive space. In addition, we enriched the theoretical framework of our manuscript by connecting the cognitive space with other important theories such as the “Expected Value of Control” theory. We have incorporated your feedback, revisions and additional analyses into the manuscript. As a result, we firmly believe that these changes have significantly improved the quality of our work. We have provided detailed responses to your comments below.

      1) It's not entirely clear what the current task can measure that is not known from the MSIT, such as the additive influence of conflict sources in Fu et al. (2022), Science. More could be done to distinguish the benefits of this task from MSIT.

      We agree that the MSIT task incorporates Simon and Eriksen Flanker conflict tasks and can efficiently detect the additivity of conflict effects across orthogonal tasks. Like the MSIT, our task incorporates Simon with spatial Stroop conflicts and can test the same idea. For example, a previous study from our lab (Li et al., 2014) used the combined spatial Stroop-Simon condition with the arrows displayed on diagonal corners and found evidence for the additive hypothesis. However, the MSIT cannot be used to test whether/how different conflicts are parametrically represented in a low-dimensional space, a question that is important to address the debate of domain-general and domain-specific cognitive control.

      To this end, our current study adopted the spatial Stroop-Simon task for the unique purpose of parametrically modulating conflict similarity. As far as we know, there is no way to define the similarity between the combined Simon_Flanker conflict condition and the Simon/Flanker conditions in the MSIT. In contrast, with the spatial Stroop-Simon paradigm, we can define the similarity with the cosine of the angle difference across the two conditions in question.

      We have added the following texts in the discussion part to emphasize the 51 difference between our paradigm and other studies.

      "The use of an experimental paradigm that permits parametric manipulation of conflict similarity provides a way to systematically investigate the organization of cognitive control, as well as its influence on adaptive behaviors. This approach extends traditional paradigms, such as the multi-source interference task (Fu et al., 2022), color Stroop-Simon task (Liu et al., 2010) and similar paradigms that do not afford a quantifiable metric of conflict source similarity."

      References:

      Li, Q., Nan, W., Wang, K., & Liu, X. (2014). Independent processing of stimulus-stimulus and stimulus-response conflicts. PloS One, 9(2), e89249.

      2) The evidence from this previous work for mixtures between different conflict sources make the framing of 'infinite possible types of conflict' feel like a strawman. The authors cite classic work (e.g., Kornblum et al., 1990) that develops a typology for conflict which is far from infinite, and I think few people would argue that every possible source of difficulty will have to be learned separately. Such an issue is addressed in theories like 'Expected Value of Control', where optimization of control policies can address unique combinations of task demands.

      The notion that there might be infinite conflicts arises when we consider the quantitative feature of cognitive control. If each combination of the Stroop-Simon combination is regarded as a conflict condition, there would be infinite combinations, and it is our major goal to investigate how these infinite conflict conditions are represented effectively in a space with finite dimensions. We agree that it is unnecessary to dissociate each of these conflict conditions into a unique conflict type, since they may not differ substantially. However, we argue that understanding variant conflicts within a purely categorical framework (e.g., Simon and Flanker conflict in MSIT) is insufficient, especially because it leads to dichotomic conclusions that do not capture how combinations of conflicts are organized in the brain, as our study addresses.

      There could be different perspectives on how our cognitive control system flexibly encodes and resolves multiple conflicts. The cognitive space assumption we held provides a principle by which we can represent multiple conflicts in a lower dimensional space efficiently. While the “Expected Value of Control” theory addresses when and how much cognitive control to apply based on control demand, the “cognitive space” view seeks to explain how the conflict, which defines cognitive control demand, is encoded in the brain. Thus, we argue that these two lines of work are different yet complementary. The geometry of cognitive space of conflict can benefit the adjustment of cognitive control for upcoming conflicts. For example, our brain may evaluate the similarity/distance (and thus cost) between the consecutive conflict conditions, and selects the path with best cost-benefit tradeoff to switch from one state to another. This idea is conceptually similar to a recent study by Grahek et al. (2022) demonstrating that more frequently switching states were encoded as closer together than less frequently switching states in a “drift-threshold” space.

      Nevertheless, Grahek et al (2022) investigated how cognitive control changes based on the expected value of control theory within the same conflict, whereas our study aims to examine organization of different conflict.

      We have added the implications of cognitive space view in the discussion to indicate the potential values of our finding to understand the EVC account and the difference between the two theories.

      “Previous researchers have proposed an “expected value of control (EVC)” theory, which posits that the brain can evaluate the cost and benefit associated with executing control for a demanding task, such as the conflict task, and specify the optimal control strength (Shenhav et al., 2013). For instance, Grahek et al. (2022) found that more frequently switching goals when doing a Stroop task were achieved by adjusting smaller control intensity. Our work complements the EVC theory by further investigating the neural representation of different conflict conditions and how these representations can be evaluated to facilitate conflict resolution. We found that different conflict conditions can be efficiently represented in a cognitive space encoded by the right dlPFC, and participants with stronger cognitive space representation have also adjusted their conflict control to a greater extent based on the conflict similarity (Fig 4C). The finding suggests that the cognitive space organization of conflicts guides cognitive control to adjust behavior. Previous studies have shown that participants may adopt different strategies to represent a task, with the model-based strategies benefitting goal-related behaviors more than the model-free strategies (Rmus et al., 2022). Similarly, we propose that cognitive space could serve as a mental model to assist fast learning and efficient organization of cognitive control settings. Specifically, the cognitive space representation may provide a principle for how our brain evaluates the expected cost of switching and the benefit of generalization between states and selects the path with the best cost-benefit tradeoff (Abrahamse et al., 2016; Shenhav et al., 2013). The proximity between two states in cognitive space could reflect both the expected cognitive demand required to transition and the useful mechanisms to adapt from. The closer the two conditions are in cognitive space, the lower the expected switching cost and the higher the generalizability when transitioning between them. With the organization of a cognitive space, a new conflict can be quickly assigned a location in the cognitive space, which will facilitate the development of cognitive control settings for this conflict by interpolating nearby conflicts and/or projecting the location to axes representing different cognitive control processes, thus leading to a stronger CSE when following a more similar conflict condition. On the other hand, without a cognitive space, there would be no measure of similarity between conflicts on different trials, hence limiting the ability of fast learning of cognitive control setting from similar trials.”

      Reference:

      Grahek, I., Leng, X., Fahey, M. P., Yee, D., & Shenhav, A. Empirical and Computational Evidence for Reconfiguration Costs During Within-Task Adjustments in Cognitive Control. CogSci.

      3) Wouldn't a region that represented each conflict source separately still show the same pattern of results? The degree of Stroop vs Simon conflict is perfectly negatively correlated across conditions, so wouldn't a region that just tracks Stoop conflict show these RSA patterns? The authors show that overall congruency is not represented in DLPFC (which is surprising), but they don't break it down by whether this is due to Stroop or Simon congruency (I'm not sure their task allows for this).

      To estimate the unique contributions of the spatial Stroop and Simon conflicts, we performed a model-comparison analysis. We constructed a Stroop-Only model and a Simon-Only model, with each conflict type projected onto the Stroop (vertical) axis or Simon (horizontal) axis, respectively. The similarity between any two conflict types was defined using the Jaccard similarity index (Jaccard, P., 1901), that is, their intersection divided by their union. By replacing the cognitive spacebased conflict similarity regressor with the Stroop-Only and Simon-Only regressors, we calculated their BICs. Results showed that the BIC was larger for Stroop-Only (5377122) and Simon-Only (5377096) than for the Cognitive-Space model (5377094). An additional Stroop+Simon model, including both Stroop-Only and Simon-Only regressors, also showed a poorer model fitting (BIC = 5377118) than the Cognitive-Space model. Considering that the pattern of conflict representations is more manifested when the conflict is present (i.e., on incongruent trials) than not (i.e., on congruent trials), we also conducted the model comparison using the incongruent trials only. Results showed that Stroop-Only (1344128), Simon-Only (1344120), and Stroop+Simon (1344157) models all showed higher BIC values than the CognitiveSpace model (1344104). These results indicate that the right 8C encodes an integrated cognitive space for resolving Stroop and Simon conflicts. Therefore, we believe the cognitive space has incorporated both dimensions. We added these additional analyses and results to the revised manuscript.

      “To examine if the right 8C specifically encodes the cognitive space rather than the domain-general or domain-specific organizations, we tested several additional models (see Methods). Model comparison showed a lower BIC in the Cognitive-Space model (BIC = 5377094) than the Domain-General (BIC = 537127) or Domain-Specific (BIC = 537127) models. Further analysis showed the dimensionality of the representation in the right 8C was 1.19, suggesting the cognitive space was close to 1D. We also tested if the observed conflict similarity effect was driven solely by spatial Stroop or Simon conflicts, and found larger BICs for the models only including the Stroop similarity (i.e., the Stroop-Only model, BIC = 5377122) or Simon similarity (i.e., the Simon-Only model, BIC = 5377096). An additional Stroop+Simon model, including both StroopOnly and Simon-Only regressors, also showed a worse model fitting (BIC = 5377118). Moreover, we replicated the results with only incongruent trials, considering that the pattern of conflict representations is more manifested when the conflict is present (i.e., on incongruent trials) than not (i.e., on congruent trials). We found a poorer fitting in Domain-general (BIC = 1344129), Domain-Specific (BIC = 1344129), Stroop-Only (BIC = 1344128), Simon-Only (BIC = 1344120), and Stroop+Simon (BIC = 1344157) models than the Cognitive-Space model (BIC = 1344104). These results indicate that the right 8C encodes an integrated cognitive space for resolving Stroop and Simon conflicts. The more detailed model comparison results are listed in Table 2.”

      We reason that we did not observe an overall congruency effect in the RSA results is because our definition of congruency here differed from traditional definitions (i.e., contrast between incongruent and congruent conditions). In the congruency regressor of our RSA model, we defined representational similarity as 1 if calculated between two incongruent, or two congruent trials, and 0 if between incongruent and congruent trials. Thus, our definition of the congruency regressor reflects whether multivariate patterns differ between incongruent and congruent trials, rather than whether activity strengths differ. Indeed, we did observe the latter form of congruency effects, with stronger univariate activities in pre-SMA for incongruent versus congruent conditions. We have added this in the Note S6 (“The multivariate representations of conflict type and orientation are different from the congruency effect”):

      “Neither did we observe a multivariate congruency effect (i.e., the pattern difference between incongruent and congruent conditions compared to that within each condition) in the right 8C or any other regions. Note the definition of congruency here differed from traditional definitions (i.e., contrast between activity strength of incongruent and congruent conditions), with which we found stronger univariate activities in pre-SMA for incongruent versus congruent conditions.”

      We could not determine whether the null effect of the congruency regressor was due to Stroop or Simon congruency alone, because congruency levels of the two types always covary. On all trials of the compound conditions (Conf 2-4), whenever the Stroop dimension was incongruent, the Simon dimension was also incongruent, and vice versa for the congruent condition. Thus, the contribution of spatial Stroop or Simon alone to the congruency effect could not be tested using compound conditions. Although we have pure spatial Stroop or Simon conditions, within-Stroop and withinSimon trial pairs constituted only 8% of cells in the representational similarity matrix. This was insufficient to determine whether the null congruency effect was due to solely Stroop or Simon.

      Overall, with the added analysis we found that the data in the right 8C area supports conflict representations that are organized based on both Simon and spatial Stroop conflict. Although the current experimental design does not allow us to identify whether the null effect of the congruency regressor was driven by either conflict or both, we clarified that the congruency regressor did not test the 205 conventional congruency effect and the null finding does not contradict previous 206 research.

      Reference:

      Jaccard, P. (1901). Étude comparative de la distribution florale dans une portion des Alpes et des Jura. Bull Soc Vaudoise Sci Nat(37), 547-579.

      4) The authors use a novel form of RSA that concatenates patterns across conditions, runs and subjects into a giant RSA matrix, which is then used for linear mixed effects analysis. This appears to be necessary because conflict type and visual orientation are perfectly confounded within the subject (although, if I understand, the conflict type x congruence interaction wouldn't have the same concern about visual confounds, which shouldn't depend on congruence). This is an interesting approach but should be better justified, preferably with simulations validating the sensitivity and specificity of this method and comparing it to more standard methods.

      The confound exists for both the conflict type and the conflict type × congruence interaction in our design, since both incongruent and congruent conditions include stimuli from the full orientation space. For example, for the spatial Stroop type, the congruent condition could be either an up arrow at the top or a down arrow at the bottom. Similarly, the incongruent condition could be either an up arrow at the bottom or a down arrow at the top. Therefore, both the congruent and incongruent conditions are perfectly confounded with the orientation.

      We reanalyzed the data using the well-documented approach by Chen et al. (2017, Neuroimage), as suggested by the reviewer. The new analysis replicated our previously reported results (Fig. 4-5, S4-S7). As Chen et al (2017) has provided abundant simulations to validate this approach, we did not run any further simulations.

      5) A chief concern is that the same pattern contributes to many entries in the DV, which has been addressed in previous work using row-wise and column-wise random effects (Chen et al., 2017, Neuroimage). It would also be informative to know whether the results hold up to removing within-run similarity, which can bias similarity measures (Walther et al., 2016, Neuroimage).

      Thank you for the comment. In our revised manuscript, we followed your suggestion and adopted the approach proposed by Chen et al. (2017). Specifically, we included both the upper and lower triangle of the representational similarity matrix (excluding the diagonal). Moreover, we also removed all the within-subject similarity (thus also excluding the within-run similarity as suggested by Walther et al. (2016)) to minimize the bias of the potentially strong within-subject similarity. In addition, we added both the row-wise and column-wise random effects to capture the dependence of cells within each column and each row, respectively (Chen et al., 2017).

      Results from this approach largely replicated our previous results. The right 8C again showed significant conflict similarity representation, with greater representational strength in incongruent than congruent condition, and positively correlated to behavioral performance. The orientation effect was also identified in the visual (e.g., right V1) and oculomotor (e.g., left FEF) regions.

      We have revised the methodology and the results in the revised manuscript:

      "Representational similarity analysis (RSA).

      For each cortical region, we calculated the Pearson’s correlations between fMRI activity patterns for each run and each subject, yielding a 1400 (20 conditions × 2 runs × 35 participants) × 1400 RSM. The correlations were calculated in a cross297 voxel manner using the fMRI activation maps obtained from GLM3 described in the previous section. We excluded within-subject cells from the RSM (thus also excluding the within-run similarity as suggested by Walther et al., (2016)), and the remaining cells were converted into a vector, which was then z-transformed and submitted to a linear mixed effect model as the dependent variable. The linear mixed effect model also included regressors of conflict similarity and orientation similarity. Importantly, conflict similarity was based on how Simon and spatial Stroop conflict are combined and hence was calculated by first rotating all subject’s stimulus location to the top right and bottom-left quadrants, whereas orientation was calculated using original stimulus locations. As a result, the regressors representing conflict similarity and orientation similarity were de-correlated. Similarity between two conditions was measured as the cosine value of the angular difference. Other regressors included a target similarity regressor (i.e., whether the arrow directions were identical), a response similarity regressor (i.e., whether the correct responses were identical); a spatial Stroop distractor regressor (i.e., vertical distance between two stimulus locations); a Simon distractor regressor (i.e., horizontal distance between two stimulus locations). Additionally, we also included a regressor denoting the similarity of Group (i.e., whether two conditions are within the same subject group, according to the stimulus-response mapping). We also added two regressors including ROI316 mean fMRI activations for each condition of the pair to remove the possible uni-voxel influence on the RSM. A last term was the intercept. To control the artefact due to dependence of the correlation pairs sharing the same subject, we included crossed random effects (i.e., row-wise and column-wise random effects) for the intercept, conflict similarity, orientation and the group factors (G. Chen et al., 2017)."

      Reference:

      Walther, A., Nili, H., Ejaz, N., Alink, A., Kriegeskorte, N., & Diedrichsen, J. (2016). Reliability of dissimilarity measures for multi-voxel pattern analysis. Neuroimage, 137, 188-200. doi:10.1016/j.neuroimage.2015.12.012

      6) Another concern is the extent to which across-subject similarity will only capture consistent patterns across people, making this analysis very similar to a traditional univariate analysis (and unlike the traditional use of RSA to capture subject-specific patterns).

      With proper normalization, we assume voxels across different subjects should show some consistent localizations, although individual differences can be high. J. Chen et al. (2017) has demonstrated that consistent multi-voxel activation patterns exist across individuals. Previous studies have also successfully applied cross-subject RSA (see review by Freund et al, 2021) and cross-subject decoding approaches (e.g., Jiang et al., 2016; Tusche et al., 2016), so we believe cross-subject RSA should be feasible to capture distributed activation patterns shared at the group level. We added this argument in the revised manuscript:

      "Previous studies (e.g., J. Chen et al., 2017) have demonstrated that consistent multivoxel activation patterns exist across individuals, and successful applications of cross-subject RSA (see review by Freund, Etzel, et al., 2021) and cross-subject decoding approaches (Jiang et al., 2016; Tusche et al., 2016) have also been reported."

      In the revised manuscript, we also tested whether the representation in right 8C held for within-subject data. We reasoned that the conflict similarity effects identified by cross-subject RSA should be replicable in within-subject data, although the latter is not able to dissociate the conflict similarity effect from the orientation effect. We performed similar RSA for within-subject RSMs, excluding the within-run cells. We replaced the perfectly confounded factors of conflict similarity and orientation with a common factor called similarity_orientation. Other confounding factor pairs were addressed similarly. Results showed a significant effect of similarity_orientation, t(13993) = 3.270, p = .0005, 1-tailed. Given the specific representation of conflict similarity identified by the cross-subject RSA, we believe that the within-subject data of right 8C probably showed similar conflict similarity modulation effects as the cross-subject data, although future research that orthogonalizes conflict type and orientation is needed to fully answer this question. We added this result in the revised section Note S7.

      "Note S7. The cross-subject RSA captures similar effects with the within-subject RSA Considering the variability in voxel-level functional localizations among individuals, one may question whether the cross-subject RSA results were biased by the consistent multi-voxel patterns across subjects, distinct from the more commonly utilized withinsubject RSA. We reasoned that the cross-subject RSA should have captured similar effects as the within-subject RSA if we observe the conflict similarity effect in right 8C with the latter analysis. Therefore, we tested whether the representation in right 8C held for within-subject data. Specifically, we performed similar RSA for withinsubject RSMs, excluding the within-run cells. We replaced the perfectly confounded factors of conflict similarity and orientation with a common factor called similarity_orientation. Other confounding factor pairs (i.e., target versus response, and Stroop distractor versus Simon distractor) were addressed similarly. Results showed a significant effect of similarity_orientation, t(13993) = 3.270, p = .0005, 1tailed. Given the specific representation of conflict similarity identified by the crosssubject RSA, the within-subject data of right 8C may show similar conflict similarity modulation effects as the cross-subject data. Further research is needed to fully dissociate the representation of conflict and the representation of visual features such as orientation."

      Reference:

      Chen, J., Leong, Y. C., Honey, C. J., Yong, C. H., Norman, K. A., & Hasson, U. (2017). Shared memories reveal shared structure in neural activity across individuals. Nature Neuroscience, 20(1), 115-125.

      Freund, M. C., Etzel, J. A., & Braver, T. S. (2021). Neural Coding of Cognitive Control: The Representational Similarity Analysis Approach. Trends in Cognitive Sciences, 25(7), 622-638.

      Jiang, J., Summerfield, C., & Egner, T. (2016). Visual Prediction Error Spreads Across Object Features in Human Visual Cortex. J Neurosci, 36(50), 12746-12763.

      Tusche, A., Bockler, A., Kanske, P., Trautwein, F. M., & Singer, T. (2016). Decoding the Charitable Brain: Empathy, Perspective Taking, and Attention Shifts Differentially Predict Altruistic Giving. Journal of Neuroscience, 36(17), 4719-4732.

      7) Finally, the authors should confirm all their results are robust to less liberal methods of multiplicity correction. For univariate analysis, they should report the effects from the standard p < .001 cluster forming threshold for univariate analysis (or TFCE). For multivariate analyses, FDR can be quite liberal. The authors should consider whether their mixed-effects analyses allow for group-level randomization, and consider (relatively powerful) Max-Stat randomization tests (Nichols & Holmes, 2002, Hum Brain Mapp).

      In our revised manuscript, we have corrected the univariate results using the probabilistic TFCE (pTFCE) approach by Spisak et al. (2019). This approach estimates the conditional probability of cluster extent based on Bayes’ rule. Specifically, we applied pTFCE on our univariate results (i.e., the z-maps of our contrasts). This returned enhanced Z-score maps, which were then thresholded based on simulated cluster size thresholds using 3dClustSim. A cluster-forming threshold of p < .001 was employed. Results showed only the pre-SMA was activated in the incongruent > congruent contrast, and right IPS and right dmPFC were activated in the linear Simon modulation effect. Further tests also showed these regions were not correlated with the behavioral performance, uncorrected ps >.28. These results largely replicated our previous results. We have revised the method and results accordingly.

      Methods:

      "Results were corrected with the probabilistic threshold-free cluster enhancement(pTFCE) and then thresholded by 3dClustSim function in AFNI (Cox & Hyde, 1997) with voxel-wise p < .001 and cluster-wize p < .05, both 1-tailed."

      Results:

      "In the fMRI analysis, we first replicated the classic congruency effect by searching for brain regions showing higher univariate activation in incongruent than congruent conditions (GLM1, see Methods). Consistent with the literature (Botvinick et al., 2004; Fu et al., 2022), this effect was observed in the pre-supplementary motor area (preSMA) (Fig. 3, Table S1). We then tested the encoding of conflict type as a cognitive space by identifying brain regions with activation levels parametrically covarying with the coordinates (i.e., axial angle relative to the horizontal axis) in the hypothesized cognitive space. As shown in Fig. 1B, change in the angle corresponds to change in spatial Stroop and Simon conflicts in opposite directions. Accordingly, we found the right inferior parietal sulcus (IPS) and the right dorsomedial prefrontal cortex (dmPFC) displayed positive correlation between fMRI activation and the Simon conflict (Fig. 3, Fig. S3, Table S1)."

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion to apply the Max-Stat randomization tests (Nichols & Holmes, 2002) for the multivariate analyses. However, the representational similarity matrix was too large (1400×1400) to be tested with a balanced randomization approach (i.e., the Max-Stat), due to (1) running even 1000 times for all ROIs cost very long time; (2) the distribution generated from normal times of randomization (e.g., 5000 iterations) would probably be unbalanced, since the full range of possible samples that could be generated by a complete randomization is not adequately represented. Instead, we adopted a very strict Bonferroni correction p < 0.0001/360 when reporting the regression results from RSA. Notebally, Chen et al (2017) has shown that their approach could control the FDR at an acceptable level.

      Reference:

      Spisák, T., Spisák, Z., Zunhammer, M., Bingel, U., Smith, S., Nichols, T., & Kincses,T. (2019). Probabilistic TFCE: A generalized combination of cluster size and voxel intensity to increase statistical power. NeuroImage, 185, 12-26.

      Chen, G., Taylor, P. A., Shin, Y.-W., Reynolds, R. C., & Cox, R. W. J. N. (2017). Untangling the relatedness among correlations, Part II: Inter-subject correlation group analysis through linear mixed-effects modeling. 147, 825-840.

      Minor concerns:

      8) I appreciate the authors wanting to present the conditions in a theory-agnostic way, but the framing of 5 conflict types was confusing. I think framing the conditions as a mixture of 2 conflict types (Stroop and Simon) makes more sense, especially given the previous work on MSIT.

      We have renamed the Type1-5 as spatial Stroop, StHSmL, StMSmM, StLSmH, and Simon conditions, respectively. H, L, and M indicate high, low andmedium similarity with the corresponding conflict, respectively. This is alsoconsistent with the naming of our previous work (Yang et al., 2021).

      Reference:

      Yang, G., Xu, H., Li, Z., Nan, W., Wu, H., Li, Q., & Liu, X. (2021). The congruency sequence effect is modulated by the similarity of conflicts. Journal of Experimental Psychology: Learning, Memory, and Cognition, 47(10), 1705-1719.

      9) It would be helpful to have more scaffolding for the key conflict & orientation analyses. A schematic in the main text that outlines these contrasts would be very helpful (e.g. similar to S4).

      We have inserted Figure 7 in the revised manuscript. In this figure, we plotted the schematic of the difference between the conflict similarity 467 and orientation regressors according to their cross-group representational similarity 468 matrices.

      10) Figure 4D could be clearer, both in labeling and figure caption. 'Modeled similarity' could be relabelled to something more informative, like 'conflict type (or mixture) similarity'. Alternatively, it would be helpful to show a summary RDM for region r-8C. For example, breaking it down by just conflict type and congruence.

      We have relabeled the x-axis to “Conflict type similarity” and y-axis to “Neural similarity” for Figure 4D in the revised manuscript.

      We have also added a summary RSM figure in Fig. S5 to show the different similarity patterns between incongruent and congruent conditions.

      11) It may be helpful to connect your work to how people have discussed multiple forms of conflict monitoring and control with respect to target and distractor features e.g., Lindsay & Jacoby, 1994, JEP:HPP; Mante, Sussillo et al., 2013, Nature; Soutschek et al., 2015, JoCN; Jackson et al., 2021, Comm Bio; Ritz & Shenhav, 2022, bioRxiv

      We have added an analysis to examine how cognitive control modulates target and distractor representation. To this end, we selected the left V4, a visual region showing joint representation of target, Stroop distractor and Simon distractor, as the region of interest. We tested whether these representation strengths differed between incongruent and congruent conditions, finding the representation of target was stronger and representations of both distractors were weaker in the incongruent condition. This suggests that cognitive control modulates the stimuli in both directions. We added the results in Note S10 and Fig. S8, and also added discussion of it in “Methodological implications”.

      “Note S10. Cognitive control enhances target representation and suppresses distractor representation Using the separability of confounding factors afforded by the cross-subject RSA, we examined how representations of targets and distractors are modulated by cognitive control. The key assumption is that exerting cognitive control may enhance target representation and suppress distractor representation. We hypothesized that stimuli are represented in visual areas, so we chose a visual ROI from the main RSA results showing joint representation of target, spatial Stroop distractor and Simon distractor (p < .005, 1-tail, uncorrected). Only the left V4 met this criterion. We then tested representations with models similar to the main text for incongruent only trials, congruent only trials, and the incongruent – congruent contrast. The contrast model additionally used interaction between the congruency and target, Stroop distractor and Simon distractor terms. Results showed that in the incongruent condition, when we employ more cognitive control, the target representation was enhanced (t(237990) = 2.59, p = .029, Bonferroni corrected) and both spatial Stroop (t(237990) = –4.18, p < .001, Bonferroni corrected) and Simon (t(237990) = –3.14, p = .005, Bonferroni corrected) distractor representations were suppressed (Fig. S8). These are consistent with the idea that the top-down control modulates the stimuli in both directions (Polk et al., 2008; Ritz & Shenhav, 2022).”

      Discussion:

      “Moreover, the cross-subject RSA provides high sensitivity to the variables of interest and the ability to separate confounding factors. For instance, in addition to dissociating conflict type from orientation, we dissociated target from response, and spatial Stroop distractor from Simon distractor. We further showed cognitive control can both enhance the target representation and suppress the distractor representation (Note S10, Fig. S8), which is in line with previous studies (Polk et al., 2008; Ritz & Shenhav, 2022)."

      12) For future work, I would recommend placing stimuli along the whole circumference, to orthogonalize Stroop and Simon conflict within-subject.

      We thank the reviewer for this highly helpful suggestion. Expanding the 547 conflict conditions to a full conflict space and replicating our current results could 548 provide stronger evidence for the cognitive space view.

      In the revised manuscript, we added this as a possible future design:

      “A possible improvement to our current design would be to include left, right, up, and down arrows presented in a grid formation across four spatially separate quadrants, with each arrow mapped to its own response button. However, one potential confounding factor would be that these conditions have different levels of difficulty (i.e., different magnitude of conflict), which may affect the CSE results and their representational similarity."

      Reviewer #2:

      Summary, general appraisal

      This study examines the construct of "cognitive spaces" as they relate to neural coding schemes present in response conflict tasks. The authors utilize a novel paradigm, in which subjects must map the direction of a vertically oriented arrow to either a left or right response. Different types of conflict (spatial Stroop, Simon) are parametrically manipulated by varying the spatial location of the arrow (a taskirrelevant feature). The vertical eccentricity of the arrow either agrees or conflicts with the arrow's direction (spatial Stroop), while the horizontal eccentricity of the arrow agrees or conflicts with the side of the response (Simon). A neural coding model is postulated in which the stimuli are embedded in a cognitive space, organized by distances that depend only on the similarity of congruency types (i.e., where conditions with similar relative proportions of spatial-Stroop versus Simon congruency are represented with similar activity patterns). The authors conduct a behavioral and fMRI study to provide evidence for such a representational coding scheme. The behavioral findings replicate the authors' prior work in demonstrating that conflict-related cognitive control adjustments (the congruency sequence effect) shows strong modulation as a function of the similarity between conflict types. With the fMRI neural activity data, the authors report univariate analyses that identified activation in left prefrontal and dorsomedial frontal cortex modulated by the amount of Stroop or Simon conflict present, and multivariate representational similarity analyses (RSA) that identified right lateral prefrontal activity encoding conflict similarity and correlated with the behavioral effects of conflict similarity.

      This study tackles an important question regarding how distinct types of conflict, which have been previously shown to elicit independent forms of cognitive control adjustments, might be encoded in the brain within a computationally efficient representational format. The ideas postulated by the authors are interesting ones and the utilized methods are rigorous.

      We would like to express our sincere appreciation for the reviewer’s positive evaluation of our manuscript and the constructive comments and suggestions. Through careful consideration of your feedback, we have endeavored to make our manuscript more accessible to readers and further strengthened our findings. In response to your suggestion, we reanalyzed our data with the approach proposed by Chen et al.’s (2017, NeuroImage). This reanalysis largely replicated our previous results, reinforcing the validity of our findings. Additionally, we conducted tests with several alternative models and found that the cognitive space hypothesis best aligns with our observed data. We have incorporated these revisions and additional analyses into the manuscript based on your valuable feedback. As a result, we believe that these changes and additional analyses have significantly enhanced the quality of our manuscript. We have provided detailed responses to your comments below.

      However, the study has critical limitations that are due to a lack of clarity regarding theoretical hypotheses, serious confounds in the experimental design, and a highly non-standard (and problematic) approach to RSA. Without addressing these issues it is hard to evaluate the contribution of the authors findings to the computational cognitive neuroscience literature.

      1) The primary theoretical question and its implications are unclear. The paper would greatly benefit from more clearly specifying potential alternative hypotheses and discussing their implications. Consider, for example, the case of parallel conflict monitors. Say that these conflict monitors are separately tuned for Stroop and Simon conflict, and are located within adjacent patches of cortex that are both contained within a single cortical parcel (e.g., as defined by the Glasser atlas used by the authors for analyses). If RSA was conducted on the responses of such a parcel to this task, it seems highly likely that an activation similarity matrix would be observed that is quite similar (if not identical) to the hypothesized one displayed in Figure 1. Yet it would seem like the authors are arguing that the "cognitive space" representation is qualitatively and conceptually distinct from the "parallel monitor" coding scheme. Thus, it seems that the task and analytic approach is not sufficient to disambiguate these different types of coding schemes or neural architectures.

      The authors also discuss a fully domain-general conflict monitor, in which different forms of conflict are encoded within a single dimension. Yet this alternative hypothesis is also not explicitly tested nor discussed in detail. It seems that the experiment was designed to orthogonalize the "domain-general" model from the "cognitive space" model, by attempting to keep the overall conflict uniform across the different stimuli (i.e., in the design, the level of Stroop congruency parametrically trades off with the level of Simon congruency). But in the behavioral results (Fig. S1), the interference effects were found to peak when both Stroop and Simon congruency are present (i.e., Conf 3 and 4), suggesting that the "domain-general" model may not be orthogonal to the "cognitive space" model. One of the key advantages of RSA is that it provides the ability to explicitly formulate, test and compare different coding models to determine which best accounts for the pattern of data. Thus, it would seem critical for the authors to set up the design and analyses so that an explicit model comparison analysis could be conducted, contrasting the domain-general, domain-specific, and cognitive space accounts.

      We appreciate the reviewer pointing out the need to formally test alternative models. In the revised manuscript, we have added and compared a few alternative models, finding the Cognitive-Space model (the one with graded conflict similarity levels as we reported) provided the best fit to our data. Specifically, we tested the following five models against the Cognitive-Space model:

      (1) Domain-General model. This model treats each conflict type as equivalent, so each two conflict types only differ in the magnitude of their conflict. Therefore, we defined the domain-general matrix as the difference in their effects indexed by the group-averaged RT in Experiment 2. Then the z-scored model vector was sign-flipped to reflect similarity instead of distance. This model showed non-significant conflict type effects (t(951989) = 0.92, p = .179) and poorer fit (BIC = 5377126) than the Cognitive-Space model (BIC = 5377094).

      (2) Domain-Specific model. This model treats each conflict type differently, so we used a diagonal matrix, with within-conflict type similarities being 1 and all crossconflict type similarities being 0. This model also showed non-significant effects (t(951989) = 0.84, p = .201) and poorer fit (BIC = 5377127) than the Cognitive-Space model.

      (3) Stroop-Only model. This model assumes that the right 8C only encodes the spatial Stroop conflict. We projected each conflict type to the Stroop (vertical) axis and calculated the similarity between any two conflict types as the Jaccard similarity index (Jaccard, 1901), that is, their intersection divided by their union. This model also showed non-significant effects (t(951989) = 0.20, p = .423) and poorer fit (BIC = 5377122) than the Cognitive-Space model.

      (4) Simon-Only model. This model assumes that the right 8C only encodes the Simon conflict. We projected each conflict type to the Simon (horizontal) axis and calculated the similarity like the Stroop-Only model. This model showed significant effects (t(951989) = 4.19, p < .001) but still quantitatively poorer fit (BIC = 5377096) than the Cognitive-Space model.

      (5) Stroop+Simon model. This model assumes the spatial Stroop and Simon conflicts are parallelly encoded in the brain, similar to the "parallel monitor" hypothesis suggested by the reviewer. It includes both Stroop-Only and Simon-Only regressors. This model showed nonsignificant effect for the Stroop regressor (t(951988) = 0.06, p = .478) and significant effect for the Simon regressor (t(951988) = 3.30, p < .001), but poorer fit (BIC = 5377118) than the Cognitive-Space model.

      “Moreover, we replicated these results with only incongruent trials (i.e., when conflict is present), considering that the pattern of conflict representations is more manifested when the conflict is present (i.e., on incongruent trials) than not (i.e., on congruent trials). We found a poorer fitting in Domain-general (BIC = 1344129), Domain-Specific (BIC = 1344129), Stroop-Only (BIC = 1344128), Simon-Only (BIC = 1344120), and Stroop+Simon (BIC = 1344157) models than the Cognitive-Space model (BIC = 1344104).”

      In summary, these results indicate that the right 8C encodes an integrated cognitive space for resolving Stroop and Simon conflicts. We added the above results to the revised manuscript.

      The above analysis approach was added to the method “Model comparison and representational dimensionality”, and the results were added to the “Multivariate patterns of the right dlPFC encodes the conflict similarity” in the revised manuscript.

      Methods:

      “Model comparison and representational dimensionality To estimate if the right 8C specifically encodes the cognitive space, rather than the domain-general or domain-specific structures, we conducted two more RSAs. We replaced the cognitive space-based conflict similarity matrix in the RSA we reported above (hereafter referred to as the Cognitive-Space model) with one of the alternative model matrices, with all other regressors equal. The domain-general model treats each conflict type as equivalent, so each two conflict types only differ in the magnitude of their conflict. Therefore, we defined the domain-general matrix as the difference in their congruency effects indexed by the group-averaged RT in Experiment 2. Then the zscored model vector was sign-flipped to reflect similarity instead of distance. The domain-specific model treats each conflict type differently, so we used a diagonal matrix, with within-conflict type similarities being 1 and all cross-conflict type similarities being 0.

      Moreover, to examine if the cognitive space is driven solely by the Stroop or Simon conflicts, we tested a spatial Stroop-Only (hereafter referred to as “Stroop-Only”) and a Simon-Only model, with each conflict type projected onto the spatial Stroop (vertical) axis or Simon (horizontal) axis, respectively. The similarity between any two conflict types was defined using the Jaccard similarity index (Jaccard, 1901), that is, their intersection divided by their union. We also included a model assuming the Stroop and Simon dimensions are independently represented in the brain, adding up the StroopOnly and Simon-Only regressors (hereafter referred to as the Stroop+Simon model). We conducted similar RSAs as reported above, replacing the original conflict similarity regressor with the Strrop-Only, Simon-Only, or both regressors (for the Stroop+Simon model), and then calculated their Bayesian information criterions (BICs).”

      Results:

      “To examine if the right 8C specifically encodes the cognitive space rather than the domain-general or domain-specific organizations, we tested several additional models (see Methods). Model comparison showed a lower BIC in the Cognitive-Space model (BIC = 5377094) than the Domain-General (BIC = 537127) or Domain-Specific (BIC = 537127) models. Further analysis showed the dimensionality of the representation in the right 8C was 1.19, suggesting the cognitive space was close to 1D. We also tested if the observed conflict similarity effect was driven solely by spatial Stroop or Simon conflicts, and found larger BICs for the models only including the Stroop similarity (i.e., the Stroop-Only model, BIC = 5377122) or Simon similarity (i.e., the Simon-Only model, BIC = 5377096). An additional Stroop+Simon model, including both StroopOnly and Simon-Only regressors, also showed a worse model fitting (BIC = 5377118). Moreover, we replicated the results with only incongruent trials, considering that the pattern of conflict representations is more manifested when the conflict is present (i.e., on incongruent trials) than not (i.e., on congruent trials). We found a poorer fitting in Domain-general (BIC = 1344129), Domain-Specific (BIC = 1344129), Stroop-Only (BIC = 1344128), Simon-Only (BIC = 1344120), and Stroop+Simon (BIC = 1344157) models than the Cognitive-Space model (BIC = 1344104). These results indicate that the right 8C encodes an integrated cognitive space for resolving Stroop and Simon conflicts. The more detailed model comparison results are listed in Table 2.”

      Reference:

      Jaccard, P. (1901). Étude comparative de la distribution florale dans une portion des Alpes et des Jura. Bull Soc Vaudoise Sci Nat(37), 547-579.

      2a) Relatedly, the reasoning for the use of the term "cognitive space" is unclear. The mere presence of graded coding for two types of conflict seems to be a low bar for referring to neural activity patterns as encoding a "cognitive space". It is discussed that cognitive spaces/maps allow for flexibility through inference and generalization. But no links were made between these cognitive abilities and the observed representational structure.

      In the revised manuscript, we have clarified that we tested a specific prediction of the cognitive space hypothesis: the geometry of the cognitive space predicts that more similar conflict types will have more similar neural representations,leading to the CSE and RSA patterns tested in this study. These results add to the literature by providing empirical evidence on how different conflict types are encoded in the brain. We agree that this study is not a comprehensive test of the cognitive space hypothesis. Thus, in the revised manuscript we explicitly clarified that this study is a test of the geometry of the cognitive space hypothesis.

      Critically, the cognitive space view holds that the representations of different abstract information are organized continuously and the representational geometry in the cognitive space are determined by the similarity among the represented information (Bellmund et al., 2018).

      "The present study aimed to test the geometry of cognitive space in conflict representation. Specifically, we hypothesize that different types of conflict are represented as points in a cognitive space. Importantly, the distance between the points, which reflects the geometry of the cognitive space, scales with the difference in the sources of the conflicts being represented by the points."

      We have also discussed the limitation of the results and stressed the need for more research to fully test the cognitive space hypothesis.

      “Additionally, our study is not a comprehensive test of the cognitive space hypothesis but aimed primarily to provide original evidence for the geometry of cognitive space in representing conflict information in cognitive control. Future research should examine other aspects of the cognitive space such as its dimensionality, its applicability to other conflict tasks such as Eriksen Flanker task, and its relevance to other cognitive abilities, such as cognitive flexibility and learning.

      2b) Additionally, no explicit tests of generality (e.g., via cross-condition generalization) were provided.

      To examine the generality of cognitive space across conditions, we conducted a leave-one-out prediction analysis. We used the behavioral data from Experiment 1 for this test, due to its larger amount of data than Experiment 2. Specifically, we removed data from one of the five similarity levels (as illustrated by the θs in Fig. 1C) and used the remaining data to perform the same mixed-effect model as reported in the main text (i.e., the two-stage analysis). This yielded one pair of beta coefficients including the similarity regressor and the intercept for each subject, with which we predicted the CSE for the removed similarity level for each subject. We repeated this process for each similarity level once. The predicted results were highly correlated with the original data, with r = .87 for the RT and r = .84 for the ER, ps < .001. We have added this analysis and result to the “Conflict type 706 similarity modulated behavioral congruency sequence effect (CSE)” section.

      “Moreover, to test the continuity and generalizability of the similarity modulation, we conducted a leave-one-out prediction analysis. Specifically, we removed data from one of the five similarity levels (as illustrated by the θs in Fig. 1C) and used the remaining data to perform the same mixed-effect model (i.e., the two-stage analysis). This yielded one pair of beta coefficients including the similarity regressor and the intercept for each subject, with which we predicted the CSE for the removed similarity level for each subject. We repeated this process for each similarity level once. The predicted results were highly correlated with the original data, with r = .87 for the RT and r = .84 for the ER, ps < .001."

      2c) Finally, although the design elicits strong CSE effects, it seems somewhat awkward to consider CSE behavioral patterns as a reflection of the kind of abilities supported by a cognitive map (if this is indeed the implication that was intended). In fact, CSE effects are well-modeled by simpler "model-free" associative learning processes, that do not require elaborate representations of abstract structures.

      We argue the conflict similarity modulation of CSEs we observed cannot be explained by the “model-free” stimulus-driven associative learning process. This mainly refers to the feature integration account proposed by Hommel et al. (2004), which explains poorer performance in CI and IC trials (compared with CC and II trials) with the partial repetition cost caused by the breaking of stimulus-response binding. Although we cannot remove its influence on the within-type trials (similarity level 5, θ = 0), it should not affect the cross-type trials (similarity level 1-4, θ = 90°, 67.5°, 45° and 22.5°, respectively), because the CC, CI, IC, II trials had equal probabilities of partially repeated and fully switched trials (see the Author response image 1 for an example of trials across Conf 1 and Conf 3 conditions). Thus, feature integration cannot explain the gradual CSE decrease from similarity level 1 to 4, which sufficiently reproduce the full effect, as suggested by the leave-one-out prediction analysis mentioned above. We thus conclude that the similarity modulation of CSE cannot be explained by the stimulus-driven associative learning.

      Author response image 1.

      Notably, however, our findings are aligned with an associative learning account of cognitive control (Abrahamse et al., 2016), which extends association learning from stimulus/response level to cognitive control. In other words, abstract cognitive control state can be learned and generalized like other sensorimotor features. This view explicitly proposes that “transfer occurs to the extent that two tasks overlap”, a hypothesis directly supported by our CSE results (see also Yang et al., 2021). Extending this, our fMRI results provide the neural basis of how cognitive control can generalize through a representation of cognitive space. The cognitive space view complements associative learning account by providing a fundamental principle for the learning and generalization of control states. Given the widespread application of CSE as indicator of cognitive control generalization (Braem et al., 2014), we believe that it can be recognized as a kind of ability supported by the cognitive space. This was further supported by the brain-behavioral correlation: stronger encoding of cognitive space was associated with greater bias of trial-wise behavioral adjustment by the consecutive conflict similarity.

      We have incorporated these ideas into the discussion:

      “Similarly, we propose that cognitive space could serve as a mental model to assist fast learning and efficient organization of cognitive control settings. Specifically, the cognitive space representation may provide a principle for how our brain evaluates the expected cost of switching and the benefit of generalization between states and selects the path with the best cost-benefit tradeoff (Abrahamse et al., 2016; Shenhav et al., 2013). The proximity between two states in cognitive space could reflect both the expected cognitive demand required to transition and the useful mechanisms to adapt from. The closer the two conditions are in cognitive space, the lower the expected switching cost and the higher the generalizability when transitioning between them. With the organization of a cognitive space, a new conflict can be quickly assigned a location in the cognitive space, which will facilitate the development of cognitive control settings for this conflict by interpolating nearby conflicts and/or projecting the location to axes representing different cognitive control processes, thus leading to a stronger CSE when following a more similar conflict condition.”

      References:

      Hommel, B., Proctor, R. W., & Vu, K. P. (2004). A feature-integration account of sequential effects in the Simon task. Psychological Research, 68(1), 1-17. Abrahamse, E., Braem, S., Notebaert, W., & Verguts, T. (2016). Grounding cognitive control in associative learning. Psychological Bulletin, 142(7), 693-728.

      Yang, G., Xu, H., Li, Z., Nan, W., Wu, H., Li, Q., & Liu, X. (2021). The congruency sequence effect is modulated by the similarity of conflicts. Journal of 770 Experimental Psychology: Learning, Memory, and Cognition, 47(10), 1705-1719.

      Braem, S., Abrahamse, E. L., Duthoo, W., & Notebaert, W. (2014). What determines the specificity of conflict adaptation? A review, critical analysis, and proposed synthesis. Frontiers in Psychology, 5, 1134.

      3) More generally, it seems problematic that Stroop and Simon conflict in the paradigm parametrically trade-off against each other. A more powerful design would have de-confounded Stroop and Simon conflict so that each could be separately estimation via (potentially orthogonal) conflict axes. Additionally, incorporating more varied stimulus sets, locations, or responses might have enabled various tests of generality, as implied by a cognitive space account.

      We thank the reviewer for these valuable suggestions. We argue that the current design is adequate to test the prediction that more similar conflict types have more similar neural representations. That said, we agree that further examination using more powerful experimental designs are needed to fully test the cognitive space account of cognitive control. We also agree that employing more varied stimulus sets,locations and responses would further extend our findings. We have included this as a future research direction in the revised manuscript.

      We have revised our discussion about the limitation as:

      “A few limitations of this study need to be noted. To parametrically manipulate the conflict similarity levels, we adopted the spatial Stroop-Simon paradigm that enables parametrical combinations of spatial Stroop and Simon conflicts. However, since this paradigm is a two-alternative forced choice design, the behavioral CSE is not a pure measure of adjusted control but could be partly confounded by bottom-up factors such as feature integration (Hommel et al., 2004). Future studies may replicate our findings with a multiple-choice design (including more varied stimulus sets, locations and responses) with confound-free trial sequences (Braem et al., 2019). Another limitation is that in our design, the spatial Stroop and Simon effects are highly anticorrelated. This constraint may make the five conflict types represented in a unidimensional space (e.g., a circle) embedded in a 2D space. Future studies may test the 2D cognitive space with fully independent conditions. A possible improvement to our current design would be to include left, right, up, and down arrows presented in a grid formation across four spatially separate quadrants, with each arrow mapped to its own response button. However, one potential confounding factor would be that these conditions have different levels of difficulty (i.e., different magnitude of conflict), which may affect the CSE results and their representational similarity.”

      4) Serious confounds in the design render the results difficult to interpret. As much prior neuroimaging and behavioral work has established, "conflict" per se is perniciously correlated with many conceptually different variables. Consequently, it is very difficult to distinguish these confounding variables within aggregate measures of neural activity like fMRI. For example, conflict is confounded with increased time-on-task with longer RT, as well as conflict-driven increases in coding of other task variables (e.g., task-set related coding; e.g., Ebitz et al. 2020 bioRxiv). Even when using much higher resolution invasive measures than fMRI (i.e., eCoG), researchers have rightly been wary of making strong conclusions about explicit encoding of conflict (Tang et al, 2019; eLife). As such, the researchers would do well to be quite cautious and conservative in their analytic approach and interpretation of results.

      We acknowledge the findings showing that encoding of conflicts may not be easily detected in the brain. However, recent studies have shown that the representational similarity analysis can effectively detect representations of conflict tasks (e.g., the color Stroop) using factorial designs (Freund et al., 2021a; 2021b).

      In our analysis, we are aware of the potential impact of time-on-task (e.g., RT) on univariate activation levels and subsequent RSA patterns. To address this issue, we added univariate fMRI activation levels as nuisance regressors to the RSA. To de confound conflict from other factors such as orientation of stimuli related to the center of the screen, we also applied the cross-subject RSA approach. Furthermore, we were cautious about determining regions that encoded conflict control. We set three strict criteria: (1) Regions must show a conflict similarity modulation effect; (2) regions must show higher representational strength in the incongruent condition compared with the congruent condition; and (3) regions must correlate with behavioral performance. With these criteria, we believe that the results we reported are already conservative. We would be happy to implement any additional criteria the reviewer recommends.

      Reference:

      Freund, M. C., Etzel, J. A., & Braver, T. S. (2021a). Neural Coding of Cognitive Control: The Representational Similarity Analysis Approach. Trends in Cognitive Sciences, 25(7), 622-638.

      Freund, M. C., Bugg, J. M., & Braver, T. S. (2021b). A Representational Similarity 823 Analysis of Cognitive Control during Color-Word Stroop. Journal of 824 Neuroscience, 41(35), 7388-7402.

      5) This issue is most critical in the interpretation of the fMRI results as reflecting encoding of conflict types. A key limitation of the design, that is acknowledged by the authors is that conflict is fully confounded within-subject by spatial orientation. Indeed, the limited set of stimulus-response mappings also cast doubt on the underlying factors that give rise to the CSE modulations observed by the authors in their behavioral results. The CSE modulations are so strong - going from a complete absence of current x previous trial-type interaction in the cos(90) case all the way to a complete elimination of any current trial conflict when the prior trial was incongruent in the cos(0) case - that they cause suspicion that they are actually driven by conflict-related control adjustments rather than sequential dependencies in the stimulus-response mappings that can be associatively learned.

      Unlike the fMRI data, we cannot tease apart the effects of conflict similarity and orientation in a similar manner as the cross-subject RSA for behavioral CSEs. However, we have a few reasons that the orientation and other bottom-up factors should not be the factors driving the similarity modulation effect.

      First, we did not find any correlation between the regions showing orientation effects and behavioral CSEs. This suggests that orientation does not directly contribute to the CSE modulation.

      Second, if the CSE modulation is purely driven by the association learning of the stimulus-response mapping, we should observe a stronger modulation effect after more extensive training. However, our results do not support this prediction. Using data from Experiment 1, we found that the modulation effect remained constant across the three sessions (see Note S3).

      “Note S3. Modulation of conflict similarity on behavioral CSEs does not change across time We tested if the conflict similarity modulation on the CSE is susceptible to training. We collected the data of Experiment 1 across three sessions, thus it is possible to examine if the conflict similarity modulation effect changes across time. To this end, we added conflict similarity, session and their interaction into a mixed-effect linear model, in which the session was set as a categorical variable. With a post-hoc analysis of variance (ANOVA), we calculated the statistical significance of the interaction term. This approach was applied to both the RT and ER. Results showed no interaction effect in either RT, F(2,1479) = 1.025, p = .359, or ER, F(2,1479) = 0.789, p = .455. This result suggests that the modulation effect does not change across time. “

      Third, the observed similarity modulation on the CSE, particularly for similarity levels 1-4, should not be attributed to the stimulus-response associations, such as feature integration, as have been addressed in response to comment 2.c.

      Finally, other bottom-up factors, such as the spatial location proximity did not drive the CSE modulation results, which we have addressed in the original manuscript in Note S2.

      "Note S2. Modulation of conflict similarity on behavioral CSEs cannot be explained by the physical proximity

      In our design, the conflict similarity might be confounded by the physical proximity between stimulus (i.e., the arrow) of two consecutive trials. That is, when arrows of the two trials appear at the same quadrant, a higher conflict similarity also indicates a higher physical proximity (Fig. 1A). Although the opposite is true if arrows of the two trials appear at different quadrants, it is possible the behavioral effects can be biased by the within quadrant trials. To examine if the physical distance has confounded the conflict similarity modulation effect, we conducted an additional analysis.

      We defined the physical angular difference across two trials as the difference of their polar angles relative to the origin. Therefore, the physical angular difference could vary from 0 to 180°. For each CSE conditions (i.e., CC, CI, IC and II), we grouped the trials based on their physical angular distances, and then averaged trials with the same previous by current conflict type transition but different orders (e.g., StHSmL−StLSmH and StLSmH−StHSmL) within each subject. The data were submitted to a mixed-effect model with the conflict similarity, physical proximity (i.e., the opposite of the physical angular difference) as fixed-effect predictors, and subject and CSE condition as random effects. Results showed significant conflict similarity modulation effects in both Experiment 1 (RT: β = 0.09 ± 0.01, t(7812) = 13.74, p < .001, ηp2 = .025; 875 ER: β = 0.09 ± 0.01, t(7812) = 7.66, p < .001, ηp2 = .018) and Experiment 2 (RT: β = 876 0.21 ± 0.02, t(3956) = 9.88, p < .001, ηp2 = .043; ER: β = 0.20 ± 0.03, t(4201) = 6.11, 877 p < .001, ηp2 = .038). Thus, the observed modulation of conflict similarity on behavioral 878 CSEs cannot be explained by physical proximity."

      6) To their credit, the authors recognize this confound, and attempt to address it analytically through the use of a between-subject RSA approach. Yet the solution is itself problematic, because it doesn't actually deconfound conflict from orientation. In particular, the RSA model assumes that whatever components of neural activity encode orientation produce this encoding within the same voxellevel patterns of activity in each subject. If they are not (which is of course likely), then orthogonalization of these variables will be incomplete. Similar issues underlie the interpretation target/response and distractor coding. Given these issues, perhaps zooming out to a larger spatial scale for the between-subject RSA might be warranted. Perhaps whole-brain at the voxel level with a high degree of smoothing, or even whole-brain at the parcel level (averaging per parcel). For this purpose, Schaefer atlas parcels might be more useful than Glasser, as they more strongly reflect functional divisions (e.g., motor strip is split into mouth/hand divisions; visual cortex is split into central/peripheral visual field divisions). Similarly, given the lateralization of stimuli, if a within-parcel RSA is going to be used, it seems quite sensible to pool voxels across hemispheres (so effectively using 180 parcels instead of 360).

      Doing RSA at the whole-brain level is an interesting idea. However, it does not allow the identification of specific brain regions representing the cognitive space. Additionally, increasing the spatial scale would include more voxels that are not involved in representing the information of interest and may increase the noise level of data. Given these concerns, we did not conduct the whole-brain level RSA.

      We agree that smoothing data can decrease cross-subject variance in voxel distribution and may increase the signal-noise ratio. We reanalyzed the results for the right 8C region using RSA on smoothed beta maps (6-mm FWHM Gaussian kernel). This yielded a significant conflict similarity effect, t(951989) = 5.55, p < .0001, replicating the results on unsmoothed data (t(951989) = 5.60, p < .0001). Therefore, we retained the results from unsmoothed data in the main text, and added the results based on smoothed data to the supplementary material (Note S9).

      “Note S9. The cross-subject pattern similarity is robust against individual differences Due to individual differences, the multivoxel patterns extracted from the same brain mask may not reflect exactly the same brain region for each subject. To reduce the influence of individual difference, we conducted the same cross-subject RSA using data smoothed with a 6-mm FWHM Gaussian kernel. Results showed a significant conflict similarity effect, t(951989) = 5.55, p < .0001, replicating the results on unsmoothed data (t(951989) = 5.60, p < .0001). “

      We also used the bilateral 8C area as a single mask and conducted the same RSA. We found a significant conflict type similarity effect, t(951989) = 4.36, p < .0001. However, the left 8C alone showed no such representation, t(951989) = 0.38, p = .351, consistent with the right lateralized representation of cognitive space we reported in Note S8. Therefore, we used ROIs from each hemisphere separately.

      “Note S8. The lateralization of conflict type representation

      We observed the right 8C but not the left 8C represented the conflict type similarity. A further test is to show if there is a lateralization. We tested several regions of the left dlPFC, including the i6-8, 8Av, 8C, p9-46v, 46, 9-46d, a9-46v (Freund, Bugg, et al., 2021). We found that none of these regions show the representation of conflict type, all uncorrected ps > .35. These results indicate that the conflict type is specifically represented in the right dlPFC. “

      We have also discussed the lateralization in the manuscript:

      “In addition, we found no such representation in the left dlPFC (Note S8), indicating a possible lateralization. Previous studies showed that the left dlPFC was related to the expectancy-related attentional set up-regulation, while the right dlPFC was related to the online adjustment of control (Friehs et al., 2020; Vanderhasselt et al., 2009), which is consistent with our findings. Moreover, the right PFC also represents a composition of single rules (Reverberi et al., 2012), which may explain how the spatial Stroop and Simon types can be jointly encoded in a single space.”

      7) The strength of the results is difficult to interpret due to the non-standard analysis method. The use of a mixed-level modeling approach to summarize the empirical similarity matrix is an interesting idea, but nevertheless is highly non-standard within RSA neuroimaging methods. More importantly, the way in which it was implemented makes it potentially vulnerable to a high degree of inaccuracy or bias. In this case, this bias is likely to be overly optimistic (high false positive rate). No numerical or formal defense was provided for this mixed-level model approach. As a result, the use of this method seems quite problematic, as it renders the strength of the observed results difficult to interpret. Instead, the authors are encouraged using a previously published method of conducting inference with between-subject RSA, such as the bootstrapping methods illustrated in Kragel et al. (2018; Nat Neurosci), or in potentially adopting one of the Chen et al. methods mentioned above, that have been extensively explored in terms of statistical properties.

      No numerical or formal defense was provided for this mixed-level model approach. As a result, the use of this method seems quite problematic, as it renders the strength of the observed results difficult to interpret. Instead, the authors are encouraged using a previously published method of conducting inference with between-subject RSA, such as the bootstrapping methods illustrated in Kragel et al. (2018; Nat Neurosci), or in potentially adopting one of the Chen et al. methods mentioned above, that have been extensively explored in terms of statistical properties.

      In our revised manuscript, we have adopted the approach proposed by Chen et al. (2017). Specifically, we included both the upper and lower triangle of the representational similarity matrix (excluding the diagonal). Moreover, we also removed all the within-subject similarity (thus also excluding the within-run similarity) to minimize the bias of the potentially strong within-subject similarity (note we also analyzed the within-subject data and found significant effects for the similarity modulation, though this effect cannot be attributed to the conflict similarity or orientation alone. We added this part in Note S7, see below). In addition, we added both the row-wise and column-wise random effects to capture the dependence of cells within each column/row (Chen et al., 2017). We have revised the method part as:

      “We excluded within-subject cells from the RSM (thus also excluding the withinrun similarity as suggested by Walther et al., (2016)), and the remaining cells were converted into a vector, which was then z-transformed and submitted to a linear mixed effect model as the dependent variable. The linear mixed effect model also included regressors of conflict similarity and orientation similarity. Importantly, conflict similarity was based on how Simon and spatial Stroop conflicts are combined and hence was calculated by first rotating all subject’s stimulus location to the topright and bottom-left quadrants, whereas orientation was calculated using original stimulus locations. As a result, the regressors representing conflict similarity and orientation similarity were de-correlated. Similarity between two conditions was measured as the cosine value of the angular difference. Other regressors included a target similarity regressor (i.e., whether the arrow directions were identical), a response similarity regressor (i.e., whether the correct responses were identical); a spatial Stroop distractor regressor (i.e., vertical distance between two stimulus locations); a Simon distractor regressor (i.e., horizontal distance between two stimulus locations). Additionally, we also included a regressor denoting the similarity of Group (i.e., whether two conditions are within the same subject group, according to the stimulus-response mapping). We also added two regressors including ROImean fMRI activations for each condition of the pair to remove the possible uni-voxel influence on the RSM. A last term was the intercept. To control the artefact due to dependence of the correlation pairs sharing the same subject, we included crossed random effects (i.e., row-wise and column-wise random effects) for the intercept, conflict similarity, orientation and the group factors (G. Chen et al., 2017).”

      Results from this approach highly replicated our original results. Specifically, we found the right 8C again showed a strong conflict similarity effect, a higher representational strength in the incongruent condition compared to the congruent condition, and a significant correlation with the behavioral CSE. The orientation effect was also identified in the visual (e.g., right V1) and oculomotor (e.g., left FEF) regions.

      We revised the results accordingly:

      For the conflict type effect:

      “The first criterion revealed several cortical regions encoding the conflict similarity, including the Brodmann 8C area (a subregion of dlPFC(Glasser et al., 2016)) and a47r in the right hemisphere, and the superior frontal language (SFL) area, 6r, 7Am, 24dd, and ventromedial visual area 1 (VMV1) areas in the left hemisphere (Bonferroni corrected ps < 0.0001, one-tailed, Fig. 4A). We next tested whether these regions were related to cognitive control by comparing the strength of conflict similarity effect between incongruent and congruent conditions (criterion 2). Results revealed that the left SFL, left VMV1, and right 8C met this criterion, Bonferroni corrected ps < .05, one-tailed, suggesting that the representation of conflict type was strengthened when conflict was present (e.g., Fig. 4D). The intersubject brain-behavioral correlation analysis (criterion 3) showed that the strength of conflict similarity effect on RSM scaled with the modulation of conflict similarity on the CSE (slope in Fig. S2C) in right 8C (r = .52, Bonferroni corrected p = .002, onetailed, Fig. 4C, Table 1) but not in the left SFL and VMV1 (all Bonferroni corrected ps > .05, one-tailed). “

      For the orientation effect:

      “We observed increasing fMRI representational similarity between trials with more similar orientations of stimulus location in the occipital cortex, such as right V1, right V2, right V4, and right lateral occipital 2 (LO2) areas (Bonferroni corrected ps < 0.0001). We also found the same effect in the oculomotor related region, i.e., the left 997 frontal eye field (FEF), and other regions including the right 5m, left 31pv and right parietal area F (PF) (Fig. 5A). Then we tested if any of these brain regions were related to the conflict representation by comparing their encoding strength between incongruent and congruent conditions. Results showed that the right V1, right V2, left FEF, and right PF encoded stronger orientation effect in the incongruent than the congruent condition, Bonferroni corrected ps < .05, one-tailed (Table1, Fig. 5B). We then tested if any of these regions was related to the behavioral performance, and results showed that none of them positively correlated with the behavioral conflict similarity modulation effect, all uncorrected ps > .45, one-tailed. Thus all regions are consistent with the criterion 3.”

      “Note S7. The cross-subject RSA captures similar effects with the within-subject RSA Considering the variability in voxel-level functional localizations among individuals, one may question whether the cross-subject RSA results were biased by the consistent multi-voxel patterns across subjects, distinct from the more commonly utilized withinsubject RSA. We reasoned that the cross-subject RSA should have captured similar effects as the within-subject RSA if we observe the conflict similarity effect in right 8C with the latter analysis. Therefore, we tested whether the representation in right 8C held for within-subject data. Specifically, we performed similar RSA for withinsubject RSMs, excluding the within-run cells. We replaced the perfectly confounded factors of conflict similarity and orientation with a common factor called similarity_orientation. Other confounding factor pairs (i.e., target versus response, and Stroop distractor versus Simon distractor) were addressed similarly. Results showed a significant effect of similarity_orientation, t(13993) = 3.270, p = .0005, 1tailed. Given the specific representation of conflict similarity identified by the crosssubject RSA, the within-subject data of right 8C may show similar conflict similarity modulation effects as the cross-subject data. Further research is needed to fully dissociate the representation of conflict and the representation of visual features such as orientation.”

      8) Another potential source of bias is in treating the subject-level random effect coefficients (as predicted by the mixed-level model) as independent samples from a random variable (in the t-tests). The more standard method for inference would be to use test statistics derived from the mixed-model fixed effects, as those have degrees of freedom calculations that are calibrated based on statistical theory.

      In our revised manuscript, we reported the statistical p values calculated from the mixed-effect models. Note that because we used the Chen et al. (2017) method, which includes data from the symmetric matrix, we corrected the degrees of freedom and estimated the true p values based on the t statistics of model results. For the I versus C comparison results, we calculated the p values by combining I and C RSMs into a larger model and then adding the condition type, as well as the interaction between the regressors of interest (conflict similarity and orientation) and the condition type. We made the statistical inference based on the interaction effect.

      We have revised the corresponding methods as:

      “The statistical significance of these beta estimates was based on the outputs of the mixed-effect model estimated with the “fitlme” function in Matlab 2022a. Since symmetric cells from the RSM matrix were included in the mixed-effect model, we adjusted the t and p values with the true degree of freedom, which is half of the cells included minus the number of fixed regressors. Multiple comparison correction was applied with the Bonferroni approach across all cortical regions at the p < 0.0001 level. To test if the representation strengths are different between congruent and incongruent conditions, we also conducted the RSA using only congruent (RDM_C) and incongruent (RDM_I) trials separately. The contrast analysis was achieved by an additional model with both RDM_C and RDM_I included, adding the congruency and the interaction between conflict type (and orientation) and congruency as both fixed and random factors. The difference between incongruent and congruent representations was indicated by a significant interaction effect.”

      Reviewer #3:

      Yang and colleagues investigated whether information on two task-irrelevant features that induce response conflict is represented in a common cognitive space. To test this, the authors used a task that combines the spatial Stroop conflict and the Simon effect. This task reliably produces a beautiful graded congruency sequence effect (CSE), where the cost of congruency is reduced after incongruent trials. The authors measured fMRI to identify brain regions that represent the graded similarity of conflict types, the congruency of responses, and the visual features that induce conflicts.

      Using several theory-driven exclusion criteria, the authors identified the right dlPFC (right 8C), which shows 1) stronger encoding of graded similarity of conflicts in incongruent trials and 2) a positive correlation between the strength of conflict similarity type and the CSE on behavior. The dlPFC has been shown to be important for cognitive control tasks. As the dlPFC did not show a univariate parametric modulation based on the higher or lower component of one type of conflict (e.g., having more spatial Stroop conflict or less Simon conflict), it implies that dissimilarity of conflicts is represented by a linear increase or decrease of neural responses. Therefore, the similarity of conflict is represented in multivariate neural responses that combine two sources of conflict.

      The strength of the current approach lies in the clear effect of parametric modulation of conflict similarity across different conflict types. The authors employed a clever cross-subject RSA that counterbalanced and isolated the targeted effect of conflict similarity, decorrelating orientation similarity of stimulus positions that would otherwise be correlated with conflict similarity. A pattern of neural response seems to exist that maps different types of conflict, where each type is defined by the parametric gradation of the yoked spatial Stroop conflict and the Simon conflict on a similarity scale. The similarity of patterns increases in incongruent trials and is correlated with CSE modulation of behavior.

      We would like to thank the reviewer for the positive evaluation of our manuscript and for providing constructive comments. By addressing these comments, we believe that we have made our manuscript more accessible for the readers while also strengthening our findings. In particular, we have tested a few alternative models and confirmed that the cognitive space hypothesis best fits the data. We have also demonstrated the geometric properties of the cognitive space by examining the continuity and dimensionality of the space, further supporting our main arguments. We have incorporated revisions and additional analyses to the manuscript based on your feedback. Overall, we believe that these changes and additional analyses have significantly improved the manuscript. Please find our detailed responses below.

      However, several potential caveats need to be considered.

      1) One caveat to consider is that the main claim of recruitment of an organized "cognitive space" for conflict representation is solely supported by the exclusion criteria mentioned earlier. To further support the involvement of organized space in conflict representation, other pieces of evidence need to be considered. One approach could be to test the accuracy of out-of-sample predictions to examine the continuity of the space, as commonly done in studies on representational spaces of sensory information. Another possible approach could involve rigorously testing the geometric properties of space, rather than fitting RSM to all conflict types. For instance, in Fig 6, both the organized and domain-specific cognitive maps would similarly represent the similarity of conflict types expressed in Fig1c (as evident from the preserved order of conflict types). The RSM suggests a low-dimensional embedding of conflict similarity, but the underlying dimension remains unclear.

      Following the reviewer’s first suggestion, we conducted a leave-one-out prediction approach to examine the continuity of the cognitive space. We used the behavioral data from Experiment 1 for this test, due to its larger amount of data than Experiment 2. Specifically, we removed data from one of the five similarity levels (as illustrated by the θs in Fig. 1C) and used the remaining data to perform the same mixed-effect model as reported in the main text (i.e., the two-stage analysis). This yielded one pair of beta coefficients including the similarity regressor and the intercept for each subject, with which we predicted the CSE for the removed similarity level at subject level. We repeated this process for each similarity level once. The predicted results were highly correlated with the original data, with r = .87 for the RT and r = .84 for the ER, ps < .001. We have added this analysis and result to the “Conflict type similarity modulated behavioral congruency sequence effect (CSE)” 1079 section:

      “Moreover, to test the continuity and generalizability of the similarity modulation, we conducted a leave-one-out prediction analysis. We used the behavioral data from Experiment 1 for this test, due to its larger amount of data than Experiment 2. Specifically, we removed data from one of the five similarity levels (as illustrated by the θs in Fig. 1C) and used the remaining data to perform the same mixed-effect model (i.e., the two-stage analysis). This yielded one pair of beta coefficients including the similarity regressor and the intercept for each subject, with which we predicted the CSE for the removed similarity level for each subject. We repeated this process for each similarity level once. The predicted results were highly correlated with the original data, with r = .87 for the RT and r = .84 for the ER, ps < .001.”

      To estimate if the domain-specific model could explain the results we observed in right 8C, we conducted a model-comparison analysis. The domain-specific model treats each conflict type differently, so we used a diagonal matrix, with within-conflict type similarities being 1 and all cross-conflict type similarities being 0. This model showed non-significant effects (t(951989) = 0.84, p = .201) and poorer fit (BIC = 5377127) than the cognitive space model (t(951989) = 5.60, p = 1.1×10−8, BIC = 5377094). We also compared other alternative models and found the cognitive space model best fitted the data. We have included these results in the revised manuscript:

      “To examine if the right 8C specifically encodes the cognitive space rather than the domain-general or domain-specific organizations, we tested several additional models (see Methods). Model comparison showed a lower BIC in the Cognitive-Space model (BIC = 5377094) than the Domain-General (BIC = 537127) or Domain-Specific (BIC = 537127) models. Further analysis showed the dimensionality of the representation in the right 8C was 1.19, suggesting the cognitive space was close to 1D. We also tested if the observed conflict similarity effect was driven solely by spatial Stroop or Simon conflicts, and found larger BICs for the models only including the Stroop similarity (i.e., the Stroop-Only model, BIC = 5377122) or Simon similarity (i.e., the Simon-Only model, BIC = 5377096). An additional Stroop+Simon model, including both StroopOnly and Simon-Only regressors, also showed a worse model fitting (BIC = 5377118). Moreover, we replicated the results with only incongruent trials, considering that the pattern of conflict representations is more manifested when the conflict is present (i.e., on incongruent trials) than not (i.e., on congruent trials). We found a poorer fitting in Domain-general (BIC = 1344129), Domain-Specific (BIC = 1344129), Stroop-Only (BIC = 1344128), Simon-Only (BIC = 1344120), and Stroop+Simon (BIC = 1344157) models than the Cognitive-Space model (BIC = 1344104). These results indicate that the right 8C encodes an integrated cognitive space for resolving Stroop and Simon conflicts. The more detailed model comparison results are listed in Table 2.”

      We also estimated the dimensionality of the right 8C with the averaged RSM and found the dimensionality of the cognitive space was ~ 1.19, very close to a 1D space. This result is consistent with our experimental design, as the only manipulated variable is the angular distance between conflict types. We have added these results and the methods to the revised manuscript.

      Results:

      “Further analysis showed the dimensionality of the representation in the right 8C was 1.19, suggesting the cognitive space was close to 1D.”

      Methods:

      “To better capture the dimensionality of the representational space, we estimated its dimensionality using the participation ratio (Ito & Murray, 2023). Since we excluded the within-subject cells from the whole RSM, the whole RSM is an incomplete matrix and could not be used. To resolve this issue, we averaged the cells corresponding to each pair of conflict types to obtain an averaged 5×5 RSM matrix, similar to the matrix shown in Fig. 1C. We then estimated the participation ratio using the formula:

      where λi is the eigenvalue of the RSM and m is the number of eigenvalues.

      2) Another important factor to consider is how learning within the confined task space, which always negatively correlates the two types of conflicts within each subject, may have influenced the current results. Is statistical dependence of conflict information necessary to use the organized cognitive space to represent conflicts from multiple sources? Answering this question would require a paradigm that can adjust multiple sources of conflicts parametrically and independently. Investigating such dependencies is crucial in order to better understand the adaptive utility of the observed cognitive space of conflict similarity.

      As the central goal of our design was to test the geometry of neural representations of conflict, we manipulated the conflict similarity. The anticorrelated Simon and spatial Stroop conflict aimed to make the overall magnitude of conflict similar among different conflict types. We agree that with the current design the likely cognitive space is not a full 2D space with Simon and spatial Stroop being two dimensions. Instead, the likely cognitive space is a subspace (e.g., a circle) embedded in the 2D space, due to the constraint of anticorrelated Simon and spatial Stroop conflict across conflict types. Nevertheless, the subspace can also be used to test the geometry that similar conflict types share similar neural representations.

      To test the full 2D cognitive space, a possible revision of our current design is to have multiple hybrid conditions (like Type 2-4) that cover the whole space. For instance, imagine arrow locations in the first quadrant space. We could have a 3×3 design with 9 conflict conditions, where their horizontal/vertical coordinates could be one of the combinations of 0, 0.5 and 1. This way, the spatial Stroop and Simon conditions would be independent of each other. Notably, however, one potential confounding factor would be that these conditions have different levels of difficulty (i.e., different magnitude of conflict), which may affect the CSE results and their representational similarity.<br /> We have added the above limitations and future designs to the revised 1156 manuscript.

      “Another limitation is that in our design, the spatial Stroop and Simon effects are highly anticorrelated. This constraint may make the five conflict types represented in a unidimensional space (e.g., a circle) embedded in a 2D space. Future studies may test the 2D cognitive space with fully independent conditions. A possible improvement to our current design would be to include left, right, up, and down arrows presented in a grid formation across four spatially separate quadrants, with each arrow mapped to its own response button. However, one potential confounding factor would be that these conditions have different levels of difficulty (i.e., different magnitude of conflict), which may affect the CSE results and their representational similarity.”

      Major comments:

      3) The RSM result (and the absence of univariate effect) seem to be a good first step to claim the use of cognitive space of conflict. Yet, the presence of an organized (unidimensional; Fig. 6) and continuous cognitive space should be further tested and backed up.

      We thank the reviewer for recognizing the methods and results of our current work. Indeed, the utilization of a parametric design and RSA to examine organization of neural representations is a widely embraced methodology in the field of cognitive neuroscience (e.g., Freund et al., 2021; Ritz et al., 2022). Our current study aimed primarily to provide original evidence for whether similar conflicts are represented similarly in the brain, which reflects the geometry of conflict representations (i.e., the structure of differences between conflict representations). We have used multiple criteria to back up the findings by showing the representation is sensitive to the presence of conflict and has behavioral relevance.

      We agree that the cognitive space account of cognitive control requires further validation. Therefore, in the revised manuscript, we have added several additional tests to strengthen the evidence supporting the organized cognitive space representation. Firstly, we tested five alternative models (Domain-General, Domain Specific, Stroop-Only, Simon-Only and Stroop+Simon models), and found that the Cognitive-Space model best fitted our data. Secondly, we explicitly calculated the dimensionality of the representation and observed a low dimensionality (1.19D). We have added these results to the “Multivariate patterns of the right dlPFC encodes the conflict similarity” section in the revised manuscript (see also the response to Comment 1).

      Furthermore, we utilized data from Experiment 1 to demonstrate the continuity of the cognitive space by showing its ability to predict out-of-sample data. We have included this result to the “Conflict type similarity modulated behavioral congruency sequence effect (CSE)” section in the revised manuscript:

      “Moreover, to test the continuity and generalizability of the similarity modulation, we conducted a leave-one-out prediction analysis. We used the behavioral data from Experiment 1 for this test, due to its larger amount of data than Experiment 2. Specifically, we removed data from one of the five similarity levels (as illustrated by the θs in Fig. 1C) and used the remaining data to perform the same mixed-effect model (i.e., the two-stage analysis). This yielded one pair of beta coefficients including the similarity regressor and the intercept for each subject, with which we predicted the CSE for the removed similarity level for each subject. We repeated this process for each similarity level once. The predicted results were highly correlated with the original data, with r = .87 for the RT and r = .84 for the ER, ps < .001.”

      References:

      Freund, M. C., Bugg, J. M., & Braver, T. S. (2021). A Representational Similarity Analysis of Cognitive Control during Color-Word Stroop. Journal of Neuroscience, 41(35), 7388-7402.

      Ritz, H., & Shenhav, A. (2022). Humans reconfigure target and distractor processing to address distinct task demands. bioRxiv. doi:10.1101/2021.09.08.459546

      4) Is the conflict similarity effect not driven by either coding of the weak to strong gradient of the spatial Stroop conflict or the Simon conflict? For example, would simply identifying brain regions that selectively tuned to the Simon conflict continuously enough to create a graded similarity in Fig. C.

      We recognize that our current design and analyzing approach cannot fully exclude the possibility that the current results are driven solely by either Stroop or Simon conflicts, since their gradients are correlated to the conflict similarity gradient we defined. To estimate their unique contributions, we performed a model-comparison analysis. We constructed a Stroop-Only model and a Simon-Only model, with each conflict type projected onto the Stroop (vertical) axis or Simon (horizontal) axis, respectively. The similarity between any two conflict types was defined using the Jaccard similarity index (Jaccard, P., 1901), that is, their intersection divided by their union. By replacing the cognitive space-based conflict similarity regressor with the Stroop-Only and Simon-Only regressors, we calculated their BICs. Results showed that the BIC was larger for Stroop-Only (5377122) and Simon-Only (5377096) than for the cognitive space model (5377094). An additional Stroop+Simon model, including both Stroop-Only and Simon-Only regressors, also 1220 showed a poorer model fitting (BIC = 5377118) than the cognitive space model.

      Moreover, we replicated the results with only incongruent trials. We found a poorer fitting in Stroop-Only (BIC = 1344128), Simon-Only (BIC = 1344120), and Stroop+Simon (BIC = 1344157) models than the Cognitive-Space model (BIC = 1344104). These results indicate that the right 8C encodes an integrated cognitive space for resolving Stroop and Simon conflicts. Therefore, we believe the cognitive space has incorporated both dimensions. We added these additional analyses and results to the revised manuscript (see also the response to the above Comment 1).

      5) Is encoding of conflict similarity in the unidimensional organized space driven by specific requirements of the task or is this a general control strategy? Specifically, is the recruitment of organized space something specific to the task that people are trained to work with stimuli that negatively correlate the spatial Stroop conflict and the Simon conflict?

      We argue that this encoding is a general control strategy. In our task design, we asked the participants to respond to the target arrow and ignore the location that appeared randomly for them. So, they were not trained to deal with the stimuli in any certain way. We also found the conflict similarity modulation on CSE did not change with more training (We added this result in Note S3), indicating that the cognitive space did not depend on strategies that could be learned through training.

      “Note S3. Modulation of conflict similarity on behavioral CSEs does not change across time We tested if the conflict similarity modulation on the CSE is susceptible to training. We collected the data of Experiment 1 across three sessions, thus it is possible to examine if the conflict similarity modulation effect changes across time. To this end, we added conflict similarity, session and their interaction into a mixed-effect linear model, in which the session was set as a categorical variable. With a post-hoc analysis of variance (ANOVA), we calculated the statistical significance of the interaction term.

      This approach was applied to both the RT and ER. Results showed no interaction effect in either RT, F(2,1479) = 1.025, p = .359, or ER, F(2,1479) = 0.789, p = .455. This result suggests that the modulation effect does not change across time."

      Instead, the cognitive space should be determined by the intrinsic similarity structure of the task design. A previous study (Freitas et al., 2015) has found that the CSE across different versions of spatial Stroop and flanker tasks was stronger than that across either of the two conflicts and Simon. In their designs, the stimulus similarity was controlled at the same level, so the difference in CSE was only attributable to the similar dimensional overlap between Stroop and flanker tasks, in contrast to the Simon task. Furthermore, recent studies showed that the cognitive space generally exists to represent structured latent states (e.g., Vaidya et al., 2022), mental strategy cost (Grahek et al., 2022), and social hierarchies (Park et al., 2020). Therefore, we argue that cognitive space is likely a universal strategy that can be applied to different scenarios.

      We added this argument in the discussion:

      “Although the spatial orientation information in our design could be helpful to the construction of cognitive space, the cognitive space itself was independent of the stimulus-level representation of the task. We found the conflict similarity modulation on CSE did not change with more training (see Note S3), indicating that the cognitive space did not depend on strategies that could be learned through training. Instead, the cognitive space should be determined by the intrinsic similarity structure of the task design. For example, a previous study (Freitas et al, 2015) has found that the CSE across different versions of spatial Stroop and flanker tasks was stronger than that across either of the two conflicts and Simon. In their designs, the stimulus similarity was controlled at the same level, so the difference in CSE was only attributable to the similar dimensional overlap between Stroop and flanker tasks, in contrast to the Simon task. Furthermore, recent studies showed that the cognitive space generally exists to represent structured latent states (e.g., Vaidya et al., 2022), mental strategy cost (Grahek et al., 2022), and social hierarchies (Park et al., 2020). Therefore, cognitive space is likely a universal strategy that can be applied to different scenarios."

      Reference:

      Freitas, A. L., & Clark, S. L. (2015). Generality and specificity in cognitive control: conflict adaptation within and across selective-attention tasks but not across selective-attention and Simon tasks. Psychological Research, 79(1), 143-162.

      Vaidya, A. R., Jones, H. M., Castillo, J., & Badre, D. (2021). Neural representation of 1280 abstract task structure during generalization. Elife, 10, 1-26.

      Grahek, I., Leng, X., Fahey, M. P., Yee, D., & Shenhav, A. Empirical and 1282 Computational Evidence for Reconfiguration Costs During Within-Task 1283 Adjustments in Cognitive Control. CogSci.

      Park, S. A., Miller, D. S., Nili, H., Ranganath, C., & Boorman, E. D. (2020). Map 1285 Making: Constructing, Combining, and Inferring on Abstract Cognitive Maps. 1286 Neuron, 107(6), 1226-1238 e1228. doi:10.1016/j.neuron.2020.06.030

      6) The observed pattern seems to suggest that there is conflict similarity space that is defined by the combination of the conflict similarity (i.e., the strength of conflicts) and the sources of conflict (i.e., the Simon vs the spatial Stroop). What are the rational reasons to separate conflicts of different sources (beyond detecting incongruence)? And how are they used for better conflict resolutions?

      The necessity of separating conflicts of different sources lies in that the spatial Stroop and the Simon effects are resolved with different mechanisms. The behavioral congruency effects of a combined conflict from two different sources were shown to be the summation of the two conflict sources (Liu et al., 2010), suggesting that the conflicts are resolved independently. Moreover, previous studies have shown that different sources of conflict are resolved with different brain regions (Egner, 2008; Li et al., 2017), and at different processing stages (Wang et al., 2013). Therefore, when multiple sources of conflict occur simultaneously or sequentially, it should be more efficient to resolve the conflict by identifying the sources.

      We have added this argument to the revised manuscript:

      “The rationale behind defining conflict similarity based on combinations of different conflict sources, such as spatial-Stroop and Simon, stems from the evidence that these sources undergo independent processing (Egner, 2008; Li et al., 2014; Liu et al., 2010; Wang et al., 2014). Identifying these distinct sources is critical in efficiently resolving potentially infinite conflicts."

      Reference:

      Egner, T. (2008). Multiple conflict-driven control mechanisms in the human brain. Trends in Cognitive Sciences, 12(10), 374-380.

      Li, Q., Yang, G., Li, Z., Qi, Y., Cole, M. W., & Liu, X. (2017). Conflict detection and 1307 resolution rely on a combination of common and distinct cognitive control networks. Neuroscience and Biobehavioral Reviews, 83, 123-131.

      Wang, K., Li, Q., Zheng, Y., Wang, H., & Liu, X. (2014). Temporal and spectral 1310 profiles of stimulus-stimulus and stimulus-response conflict processing. NeuroImage, 89, 280-288.

      Liu, X., Park, Y., Gu, X., & Fan, J. (2010). Dimensional overlap accounts for independence and integration of stimulus-response compatibility effects. Attention, Perception, & Psychophysics, 72(6), 1710-1720.

      7) The congruency effect is larger in conflict type 2, 3, 4 consistently compared to conflict 1 and 5. Are these expected under the hypothesis of unified cognitive space of conflict similarity? Is the pattern of similarity modeled in RSA?

      Yes, this is expected. The spatial Stroop and Simon effects have been shown to be additive and independent (Li et al., 2014). Therefore, the congruency effects of conflict type 2, 3 and 4 would be the weighted sum of the spatial Stroop and Simon effects. The weights can be defined by the sine and cosine of the polar angle.

      For instance, in Type 2, wy = sin(67.5°) and wx = cos(67.5°). The sum of the two 1321 weight values (i.e., 1.31) is larger than 1, leading to a larger congruency effect than 1322 the pure spatial Stroop (Conf 1) and Simon (Conf 5) conditions.

      Note that this hypothesis underlies the Stroop+Simon model, which assumes the Stroop and Simon dimensions are independently represented in the brain and drive the behavior in an additive fashion. Moreover, the observed difference of behavioral congruency effects may have reflected the variance in the Domain-General model, which treats all conflict types as equivalent, with the only difference between each two conflict types in the magnitude of their conflict. Therefore, we did not model the behavioral congruency effects as a covariance regressor in the major RSA. Instead, we conducted a model comparison analysis by comparing these models and the Cognitive-Space model. Results showed worse model fitting of both the Domain-general and Stroop+Simon models. Specially, the regressor of congruency effect difference in the Domain-General model was not significant (p = .575), which also suggests that the higher congruency effect in conflict type 2, 3 and 4 should not influence the Cognitive-Space model results. We have added these methods and results to the revised manuscript (see also our response to Comment 1):

      Methods:

      “Model comparison and representational dimensionality

      To estimate if the right 8C specifically encodes the cognitive space, rather than the domain-general or domain-specific structures, we conducted two more RSAs. We replaced the cognitive space-based conflict similarity matrix in the RSA we reported above (hereafter referred to as the Cognitive-Space model) with one of the alternative model matrices, with all other regressors equal. The domain-general model treats each conflict type as equivalent, so each two conflict types only differ in the magnitude of their conflict. Therefore, we defined the domain-general matrix as the difference in their congruency effects indexed by the group-averaged RT in Experiment 2. Then the z scored model vector was sign-flipped to reflect similarity instead of distance. The domain-specific model treats each conflict type differently, so we used a diagonal matrix, with within-conflict type similarities being 1 and all cross-conflict type similarities being 0.

      Moreover, to examine if the cognitive space is driven solely by the Stroop or Simon conflicts, we tested a spatial Stroop-Only (hereafter referred to as “Stroop-Only”) and a Simon-Only model, with each conflict type projected onto the spatial Stroop (vertical) axis or Simon (horizontal) axis, respectively. The similarity between any two conflict types was defined using the Jaccard similarity index (Jaccard, 1901), that is, their intersection divided by their union. We also included a model assuming the Stroop and Simon dimensions are independently represented in the brain, adding up the Stroop Only and Simon-Only regressors. We conducted similar RSAs as reported above, replacing the original conflict similarity regressor with the Strrop-Only, Simon-Only, or both regressors, and then calculated their Bayesian information criterions (BICs)."

      Reference:

      Li, Q., Nan, W., Wang, K., & Liu, X. (2014). Independent processing of stimulus stimulus and stimulus-response conflicts. PloS One, 9(2), e89249.

      8) Please clarify the observed patterns of CSE effects in relation to the hypothesis of common cognitive space of conflict. In particular, right 8C shows that the patterns become dissimilar in incongruent trials compared to congruent trials. How does this direction of the effect fit to the common unidimensional cognitive space account? And how does such a representation contribute to the CES effects?

      The behavioral CSE patterns provide initial evidence for the cognitive space hypothesis. Previous studies have debated whether cognitive control relies on domain-general or domain-specific representations, with much evidence gathered from behavioral CSE patterns. A significant CSE across two conflict conditions typically suggests domain-general representations of cognitive control, while an absence of CSE suggests domain-specific representations. The cognitive space view proposes that conflict representations are neither purely domain-general nor purely domain-specific, but rather exist on a continuum. This view predicts that the CSE across two conflict conditions should depend on the representational distance between them within this cognitive space. Our finding that CSE values systematically vary with conflict similarity level support this hypothesis. We have added this point in the discussion of the revised manuscript:

      “Previous research on this topic often adopts a binary manipulation of conflict(Braem et al., 2014) (i.e., each domain only has one conflict type) and gathered evidence for the domain-general/specific view with presence/absence of CSE, respectively. Here, we parametrically manipulated the similarity of conflict types and found the CSE systematically vary with conflict similarity level, demonstrating that cognitive control is neither purely domain-general nor purely domain-specific, but can be reconciled as a cognitive space(Bellmund et al., 2018) (Fig. 6, middle).

      Fig. 4D was plotted to show the steeper slope of the conflict similarity effect for incongruent versus congruent conditions. Note the y-aixs displays z-scored Pearson correlation values, so the grand mean of each condition was 0. The values for the first two similarity levels (level 1 and 2) were lower for incongruent than congruent conditions, seemingly indicating lower average similarity. However, this was not the case. The five similarity levels contained different numbers of data points (see Fig. 1C), so levels 4 and 5 should be weighted more heavily than levels 1 and 2. When comparing the grand mean of raw Pearson correlation values, the incongruent condition (0.0053) showed a tendency toward higher similarity than the congruent condition (0.0040), t(475998) = 1.41, p = .079. We have also plotted another version of Fig. 4D in Fig. S5, in which the raw Pearson correlation values were used.

      The greater representation of conflict type in incongruent condition compared to congruent condition (as evidenced by a steeper slope) suggests that the conflict representation was driven by the incongruent condition. This is probably due to the stronger involvement of cognitive control in incongruent condition (than congruent condition), which in turn leads to more distinct patterns across different conflict types. This is consistent with the fact that the congruent condition is typically a baseline, where any conflict related effects should be weaker.

      The representation of cognitive space may contribute to the CSE as a mental model. This model allows our brain to evaluate the cost and benefit associated with transitioning between different conflict conditions. When two consecutive trials are characterized by more similar conflict types, their representations in the cognitive space will be closer, resulting in a less costly transition. As a consequence, stronger CSEs are observed. We revised the corresponding discussion part as:

      “Similarly, we propose that cognitive space could serve as a mental model to assist fast learning and efficient organization of cognitive control settings. Specifically, the cognitive space representation may provide a principle for how our brain evaluates the expected cost of switching and the benefit of generalization between states and selects the path with the best cost-benefit tradeoff (Abrahamse et al., 2016; Shenhav et al., 2013). The proximity between two states in cognitive space could reflect both the expected cognitive demand required to transition and the useful mechanisms to adapt from. The closer the two conditions are in cognitive space, the lower the expected switching cost and the higher the generalizability when transitioning between them. With the organization of a cognitive space, a new conflict can be quickly assigned a location in the cognitive space, which will facilitate the development of cognitive control settings for this conflict by interpolating nearby conflicts and/or projecting the location to axes representing different cognitive control processes, thus leading to a stronger CSE when following a more similar conflict condition.”

      Minor comments:

      9) Some of the labels of figure axes are unclear (e.g., Fig4C) about what they represent.

      In Fig. 4C, the x-axis label is “neural representational strength”, which refers to the beta coefficient of the conflict type effect computed from the main RSA, denoting the strength of the conflict type representation in neural patterns. The y-axis label is “behavioral representational strength”, which refers to the beta coefficient obtained from the behavioral linear model using conflict similarity to predict the CSE in Experiment 2; it reflects how strong the conflict similarity modulates the behavioral 1440 CSE. We apologize for any confusion from the brief axis labels. We have added expanded descriptions to the figure caption of Fig. 4C.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer 1:

      One concern is regarding the experimental task design. Currently, only subjective reports of interoceptive intensity are taken into account, the addition of objective behavioural measures would have given additional value to the study and its impact. 

      To address this comment, we calculated interoceptive accuracy during the cardiorespiratory perturbation (isoproterenol) task according to our previous methods (e.g., Khalsa et al 2009 Int J Psychophys, Khalsa et al, 2015 IJED, Khalsa et al 2020 Psychophys, Hassanpour et al, 2018 NPP, Teed et al 2022 JAMA Psych). Thus, we quantified interoceptive accuracy as the cross-correlation between heart rate and real-time cardiorespiratory perception; specifically, the zero-lag cross-correlation between the heart rate and dial rating time series, and the maximum cross-correlation between these time series while allowing for different temporal delays (or lags). As expected, we found a dose-related increase in interoceptive accuracy from the 0.5mcg moderate perturbation dose (for which neuroimaging maps were not included in the current study) to the 2.0mcg high perturbation dose: zero-lag cross-correlations of 0.25 and 0.61, maximum cross-correlations of 0.41 and 0.73, for 0.5mcg and 2.0mcg doses, respectively, when averaged across all participants in the current study. Taking a closer examination at just the 2.0mcg dose, there were no group differences in zero-lag cross-correlation (t89\=-0.68, p=0.50) or maximum cross-correlation (t87\=-1.0, p=0.32) (depicted below, panel A). Furthermore, there were no associations between either of these interoceptive accuracy measures and the magnitude of activation within bilateral dysgranular convergent regions (F1\= 0.27 and 0.01, p=0.61 and 0.91, for the main effect of percent signal change on max and zero-lag cross-correlations, respectively; depicted below, panel B). When considering the significant correlation between the right insula signal intensity and subjective dial ratings, this lack of association with interoceptive accuracy suggests that the right dysgranular convergent insula was preferentially tracking the magnitude estimation rather than accuracy facet of interoceptive awareness during cardiorespiratory perturbation. Notably, during the saline placebo infusion, there were no systematic changes in heart rate and thus no systematic change in dial rating, precluding the calculation of the cross-correlation as a measure of interoceptive accuracy.

      In reviewing these findings, we did not feel that the results add meaningful information to our interpretation of convergence, and accordingly we have chosen not to include it in the manuscript.

      Author response image 1.

      (A) Interoceptive accuracy during 2.0mcg isoproterenol perturbation, as measured by the maximum (left panel) and zero-lag (right panel) cross-correlation between the time series of heart rate and perceptual dial rating. There were no differences between groups. (B) There were no associations between interoceptive accuracy ratings and signal intensity within the convergence dysgranular insula during the Peak period of 2.0mcg perturbation. 

      This brings me to my second concern. The authors mostly refer to their own previous work, without highlighting other methods used in the field. Some tasks measure interoceptive accuracy or other behavioural outcomes, instead of merely subjective intensity. Expanding the scientific context would aid the understanding and integration of this study with the rest of the field. 

      Given our focus on the neural basis of bottom-up perturbations of interoception, we found it relevant to reference previous studies from our lab, as we built directly upon these previous findings to inform the hypotheses and design of the current experiment, but we can appreciate to provide a broader view of the literature. To expand the contextual frame, we have cited two fMRI meta-analyses of cardiac and gastrointestinal interoception (line 101). There are few studies that have used comparable perturbation approaches during neuroimaging in clinical populations, although we have referenced an exemplar study from the respiratory domain by Harrison et al (2021) in the discussion (line 612). In considering this comment more carefully, we felt that expanding the context further to other task-based methods or behavioral outcomes would shift the focus beyond our emphasis on the insular cortex and top-down/bottom-up convergence, though we have previously discussed and integrated such approaches (e.g., Khalsa & Lapidus, 2016 Front Psych, Khalsa et al, 2018 Biol Psychiatry CNNI, Khalsa et al 2022, Curr Psych Rep).

      Lastly, the suggestions for future research lack substance compared to the richness of the discussion. I recommend a slight revision of the introduction/discussion. There is text in the discussion (explanatory or illuminating) which is better suited to the introduction. 

      When discussing our study limitations (beginning line 732), we offer numerous areas for future research including different preprocessing pipelines, more sophisticated analysis techniques (such as multivariate pattern analysis) that would allow for individual-level inferences regarding convergent patterns of activation within the insula. However, we have revised the last sentence of our limitations paragraph (line 757), and have added more specificity regarding future approaches examining insular and whole-brain interoceptive signal flow.

      Reviewer 2:

      (1) The interpretation of the resting-state data is not quite as clear-cut as the task-based data - as presented currently, changes could potentially represent fluctuations over time rather than following interoception specifically. In contrast, much stronger conclusions can be drawn from the authors' task-based data. …I was also unsure about the interpretation of the resting state analysis (Figure 5), as there was no control condition without interoceptive tasks, meaning any change could represent a change over time that differed between groups and not necessarily a change from pre- to post-interoception. Relatedly I wondered if the authors had calculated the test-retest reliability of the resting state data (e.g. intraclass correlation coefficients for the whole-brain functional connective of convergent dysgranular insula subregions and left middle frontal gyrus before vs. after the tasks), as it would be generally useful for the field to know its stability. 

      We have acknowledged the lack of a control condition in the isoproterenol task (note that the VIA task contained an exteroceptive trial that was included in the brain image contrast analysis). We have also provided further justification for our approach in both the Methods (see the first paragraph “fMRI resting state analysis” subsection) and Results (see the last paragraph of the “Convergence analysis” subsection). We cannot estimate test-retest reliability from the current dataset, given that we do not have resting state scans separated by a similar time frame without the performance of the interoceptive tasks in between (this is now clarified in line 346).

      (2) The transdiagnostic sample could be better characterised in terms of diagnostic information, and was almost entirely female; it is also unclear what the effect of psychotropic medications may have been on the results given the effects of (e.g.) serotonergic medication on the BOLD signal. …Table 1 would be substantially improved by a fuller clinical characterisation of the specific sample included in the analysis - the diagnostic acronyms included in the table caption are not used in the table itself at present and would be an excellent addition, describing, for example, the demographics and symptom scores of patients meeting criteria for MDD, GAD, and AN (and perhaps those meeting criteria for more than 1). Similarly, additional information about the specific medications patients (or controls?) were taking in this study would be welcome (given the potential influences of common medications (e.g. antidepressants) on neurovascular coupling). 

      We have expanded Table 1 to include more specific diagnostic information for the transdiagnostic ADE group (GAD, MDD, and/or AN, as well as other psychiatric diagnoses). We have also included medication use.  

      Finally, Figures 7c and 7d would be greatly improved by showing individual data points if possible, and there may be a typo in the caption 'The cardiac group reported higher cardiac intensity ratings in the ADE group'.

      We have adjusted Figure 7c and 7d to include individual data points, as we agree that this provides greater transparency to the data itself. We have also fixed the typo in the figure caption.

      (3) As the authors point out, there may have been task-specific preprocessing/analysis differences that influenced results, for example, due to physiological correction in one but not both tasks. Although I note this is mentioned in the limitations, it was not clear to me why physiological noise was removed from the ISO task and whether it would be possible to do the same in the VIA task, which could be important for the most robust comparison of the two. 

      In this study, we intentionally chose different task-specific preprocessing pipelines so we could ensure that our results were not simply due to new ways of handling the data. This would allow us to evaluate evidence of replicating the previous group-level findings of insular activation that informed the current approach and hypotheses. We agree that a harmonized approach is also merited, and in a subsequent project using this dataset, we have matched preprocessing pipelines for a connectivity-based analysis, to best facilitate comparison across tasks. We look forward to sharing those results with the scientific community in due time.

      Reviewer 3:

      Maybe I missed it (and my apologies in case I did), but there were a few instances where it was not entirely clear whether differential effects (say between groups or conditions) were compared directly, as would be required. One example is l. 459 ff: The authors report the interesting lateralisation effect for the two interception tasks and say it was absent in the exteroceptive VIA task. As a reader, it would be great to know whether that finding (effect in one condition but not in the other) is meaningful, i.e. whether the direct comparison becomes statistically significant. … The same applies to later comparisons, for example, the correlations reported in l. 465 ff (do these differ from one another?) as well as the FC patterns reported in l. 476 ff - again, there is a specific increase in the ADE group (but not in the HC), but is this between-group difference statistically meaningful? 

      Thank you for these questions. We have added greater detail in the Results section in order to increase clarity regarding which statistical comparisons support which conclusions. Generally, we limited our comparisons to the effect of group, as comparing ADE vs. HC individuals was of primary interest, and in some cases also the effect of hemisphere and epoch. However, we did not perform exhaustive comparisons for all measures, in the interest of keeping the focus of our multi-level multi-task analysis on the hypothesis-driven questions specifically related to convergence of top-down and bottom-up processing.

      Regarding the comment asking if we could compare the lateralization effect directly across task conditions (i.e., is there a greater difference between hemispheres in the ISO task compared to VIA?): unfortunately, directly comparing signal intensity across tasks is not possible because the isoproterenol infusion induces physiological changes that can cause some dose-related signal reduction (we have attempted to address this in the past, e.g., Hassanpour et al, 2018 HumBrMapp). Consequently, our conclusions about spatial localization of top-down and bottom-up convergence are limited to group-level comparisons based on binary activation.

      (2) A second 'major' relates to the intensity ratings (l. 530 ff). I found it very interesting that the ADE group reported higher cardiac, but lower exteroceptive intensity ratings during the VIA task. I understand the authors' approach to collapse within the ADE group, but it would be great to know which subgroup of patients drives this differential effect. It could be the case that the cardiac effect is predominantly present in the anxiety group, while the lower exteroceptive ratings are driven by the depression patients. Even if that were not the case, it would be highly instructive to understand the rating pattern within the anxiety group in greater detail. Do these patients 'just' selectively upregulate interoception, or is there even a perceived downregulation of exteroceptive signalling? 

      We have depicted these data below for reviewers’ reference, showing individual responses for each group (HC and ADE; panel A), as well as the ADE individuals separated by primary diagnosis (GAD = generalized anxiety disorder, n=24; AN = anorexia nervosa, n=16; MDD = major depressive disorder, n=6; panel B). When tested via linear regression, we found no differences in ratings across ADE subgroups (rating ~ subgroup * condition, F3\=1.71, p=0.16 for main effect of subgroup). However, several factors should be considered in interpreting this result: first, all subgroups are small, particularly the MDD sample. Second, while these diagnostic labels refer to the most prominent symptom expression of each patient, every clinical participant in the study had a co-morbid disorder. Therefore, it is not possible to isolate disorder-specific pathology from our multi-diagnostic sample, and for this reason we refrained from including the subgroup-specific data in the manuscript.

      Author response image 2.

      (A) Post-trial ratings during the Visceral Interoceptive attention task, for reference. This is also shown in Figure 7D. (B) The same post-trial ratings in (A), but with the ADE group separated by primary diagnoses. Importantly, although assigned to one diagnostic category on the basis of most prominent symptom expression, most patients had one or more comorbidities across disorders. GAD = Generalized Anxiety Disorder. MDD = major depressive disorder. AN = anorexia nervosa. HC = healthy comparison.

      l. 86: 'Conscious experience' of what, precisely? During the first round of reading, I was wondering about the extent to which consciousness as a general concept will play a role, which could be misleading. 

      We have changed it to “conscious experience of the inner body” in the text. The current study is limited in scope to the neurobiology of conscious perceptions of the inner body, not consciousness as a general phenomenon. We hope this distinction is now clear.

      l.115: Particularly given the focus on predictive processing, I was wondering whether the (slightly outdated) spotlight metaphor is really needed here. 

      While not perfect, we believe it is still valid to metaphorically reference goal-directed attention towards the body as an “attentional spotlight”. Given the concern, we have minimized the focus on this metaphor, and the sentence now reads as follows:

      “Extending beyond these model-based influences are goal-directed activities (also described previously as the ‘attentional spotlight’ effect ((Brefczynski and DeYoe 1999)), whereby focusing voluntary attention towards certain environmental signals not only alters their conscious experience but selectively enhances neural activity in the responsive area of cortex.”

      l. 129 ff: The sentence has three instances of 'and' in it, most likely a typo. 

      We have fixed this in the text.

      l. 245: What do these ratings correspond to, i.e. what was the precise question/instruction? 

      The instructions for subjective ratings in each task are mentioned in the Methods (line 223 for ISO task, line 249 for the VIA task), and we have added more detail regarding the scale used to collect subjective intensity ratings.

      l. 322: Could you provide the equation of the LMEM in the main text? It would be interesting to know e.g. whether participants/patients were included as a random effect. 

      We have provided this equation in the Methods (line 326).

      l. 418 ff: I was confused about the statistical approach here. Why use separate t-tests instead of e.g. another LMEM which would adequately model task and condition factors? 

      We did not use t-tests, but instead used linear regression to look at differences in agranular PSC across groups, hemispheres, and epochs, as well as potential associations between PSC and trait measures. We have adjusted the wording in this Methods paragraph (line 418) to help clarity.

      l. 425: As a general comment, it would be great to provide the underlying scripts openly through GitHub, OSF, ... 

      We agree with this comment, and our main analysis scripts have been posted on our OSF as an addition to the original preregistration of this work (https://osf.io/6nxa3/).

      l. 443: For consistency, please report the degrees of freedom for the X² test.

      l. 454: ... and the F statistic would require two degrees of freedom (only the second is reported).

      l. 523: The t value is reported without degrees of freedom here (but has them in other instances).

      l. 540: Typo ('were showed').

      We have reported degrees of freedom for all statistics.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer 1:

      (1) In general, the representation of target and distractor processing is a bit of a reach. Target processing is represented by SSVEP amplitude, which is most likely going to be related to the contrast of the dots, as opposed to representing coherent motion energy, which is the actual target. These may well be linked (e.g., greater attention to the coherent motion task might increase SSVEP amplitude), but I would call it a limitation of the interpretation. Decoding accuracy of emotional content makes sense as a measure of distractor processing, and the supplementary analysis comparing target SSVEP amplitude to distractor decoding accuracy is duly noted.

      We agree with the reviewer. The SSVEP amplitude of the target at the whole trial level indeed reflected the combined effect of the stimulus parameters (e.g., contrast of the moving dots) as well as attention. However, the time course of the target SSVEP amplitude within a trial, derived from the moving window analysis, reflected the temporal fluctuations of target processing, since the stimulus parameters remained the same during the trial. We now make this clearer in the revised manuscript.

      (2) Comparing SSVEP amplitude to emotional category decoding accuracy feels a bit like comparing apples with oranges. They have different units and scales and probably reflect different neural processes. Is the result the authors find not a little surprising in this context? This relationship does predict performance and is thus intriguing, but I think this methodological aspect needs to be discussed further. For example, is the phase relationship with behaviour a result of a complex interaction between different levels of processing (fundamental contrast vs higher order emotional processing)?

      Traditionally, the SSVEP amplitude at the distractor frequency is used to quantify distractor processing. Given that the target SSVEP amplitude is stronger than that of the distractor, it is possible that the distractor SSVEP amplitude is contaminated by the target SSVEP amplitude due to spectral power leakage; see Figure S4 for a demonstration of this. Because of this issue we therefore introduced the use of decoding accuracy as an index of distractor processing. The lack of correlation between the distractor SSVEP amplitude and the distractor decoding accuracy, although it is kind of like comparing apples with oranges as pointed out by the reviewer, serves the purpose of showing that these two measures are not co-varying, and the use of decoding accuracy is free from the influence of the distractor SSVEP amplitude which is influenced by the target SSVEP amplitude. Also, to address the apples-vs-oranges issue, the correlation was computed on normalized time series, in which a z-score time series replaced the original time series so that the correlated variables are dimensionless. Regarding the question of assessing the relation between behavior and different levels of processing, we do not have means to address it, given that we are not able to empirically separate the effects of stimulus parameters versus attention.

      Reviewer 2:

      (1) Incomplete Evidence for Rhythmicity at 1 Hz: The central claim of 1 Hz rhythmic sampling is insufficiently validated. The windowing procedure (0.5s windows with 0.25s step) inherently restricts frequency resolution, potentially biasing toward low-frequency components like 1 Hz. Testing different window durations or providing controls would significantly strengthen this claim.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s insightful suggestion. In response, we tested different windowing parameters, e.g., 0.1s sliding window with a 0.05s step size. Figure S5 demonstrates that the strength of both target and distractor processing fluctuates around ~1 Hz, both at the individual and group levels. Additionally, Figures S6(A) and S6(B) show that the relative phase between target and distractor processing time series exhibits a uniform distribution across subjects. In terms of the relation between relative phase and behavior, Figure S6(C) illustrates two representative cases: a high-performing subject with 84.34% task accuracy exhibited a relative phase of 0.9483π (closer to π), while a low-performing subject with 30.95% accuracy showed a phase of 0.29π close to 0). At the group level, a significant positive correlation between relative phase and task performance was found (r = 0.6343, p = 0.0004), as shown in Figure S6(D). All these results, aligning closely with our original findings (0.5s window length and 0.25s step size), suggest that the conclusions are not dependent on windowing parameters. We discuss these results in the revised manuscript.

      To further validate our findings, we also employed the Hilbert transform to extract amplitude envelopes of the target and distractor signals on a time-point-by-time-point basis, providing a window-free estimate of signal strength (Figures R3 and R4). The results remain consistent with both the original findings and the new sliding window analyses (Figure S6). Specifically, Figure S7 reveals ~1 Hz fluctuations in target and distractor processing at both individual and group levels. Figures S8(A) and S8(B) confirm a uniform distribution of the relative phase across subjects. In Figure S8(C), the relative phase was 0.9567π for a high-performing subject (84.34% accuracy) and 0.2247π for a low-performing subject (28.57% accuracy). At the group level, a significant positive correlation was again observed between relative phase and task performance (r = 0.4020, p = 0.0376), as shown in Figure S8(D).

      (2) No-Distractor Control Condition: The study lacks a baseline or control condition without distractors. This makes it difficult to determine whether the distractor-related decoding signals or the 1 Hz effect reflect genuine distractor processing or more general task dynamics.

      The lack of a no-distractor control condition is certainly a limitation and will be acknowledged as such in the revised manuscript. However, given that our decoding results are between two different classes of distractors, we are confident that they reflect distractor processing.

      (3) Decoding Near Chance Levels: The pairwise decoding accuracies for distractor categories hover close to chance (~55%), raising concerns about robustness. While statistically above chance, the small effect sizes need careful interpretation, particularly when linked to behavior.

      This is an important point. To test robustness, we have implemented a random permutation procedure in which trial labels were randomly shuffled to construct a nullhypothesis distribution for decoding accuracy. We then compared the decoding accuracy from the actual data to this distribution. Figure S9 shows the results based on 1,000 permutations. For each of the three pairwise classifications—pleasant vs. neutral, unpleasant vs. neutral, and pleasant vs. unpleasant—as well as the three-way classification, the actual decoding accuracies fall far outside the null-hypothesis distribution (p < 0.001), and the effect size in all four cases is extremely large. These findings indicate that the observed decoding accuracies are statistically significant and robust in terms of both statistical inference and effect size.

      (4) No Clear Correlation Between SSVEP and Behavior: Neither target nor distractor signal strength (SSVEP amplitude) correlates with behavioral accuracy. The study instead relies heavily on relative phase, which - while interesting - may benefit from additional converging evidence.

      We felt that what the reviewer pointed out is actually the main point of our study, namely, it is not the target or distractor strength over the whole trial that matters for behavior, it is their temporal relationship within the trial that matters for behavior. This reveals a novel neuroscience principle that has not been reported in the past. We have stressed this point further in the revised manuscript.

      (5) Phase-analysis: phase analysis is performed between different types of signals hindering their interpretability (time-resolved SSVEP amplitude and time-resolved decoding accuracy).

      The time-resolved SSVEP amplitude is used to index the temporal dynamics of target processing whereas the time-resolved decoding accuracy is used to index the temporal dynamics of distractor processing. As such, they can be compared, using relative phase for example, to examine how temporal relations between the two types of processes impact behavior. This said, we do recognize the reviewer’s concern that these two processes are indexed by two different types of signals. We thus normalized each time course using zscoring, making them dimensionless, and then computed the temporal relations between them.

      Appraisal of Aims and Conclusions:

      The authors largely achieved their stated goal of assessing rhythmic sampling of distractors. However, the conclusions drawn - particularly regarding the presence of 1 Hz rhythmicity - rest on analytical choices that should be scrutinized further. While the observed phaseperformance relationship is interesting and potentially impactful, the lack of stronger and convergent evidence on the frequency component itself reduces confidence in the broader conclusions.

      Impact and Utility to the Field:

      If validated, the findings will advance our understanding of attentional dynamics and competition in complex visual environments. Demonstrating that ignored distractors can be rhythmically sampled at similar frequencies to targets has implications for models of attention and cognitive control. However, the methodological limitations currently constrain the paper's impact.

      Thanks for these comments and positive assessment of our work’s potential implications and impact. As indicated above, in the revision process, we have carried out a number of additional analyses, some suggested by the reviewers, and the results of the additional analyses, now included in the Supplementary Materials, served to further validate the main findings and strengthen our conclusions.

      Additional Context and Considerations:

      (1) The use of EEG-fMRI is mentioned but not leveraged. If BOLD data were collected, even exploratory fMRI analyses (e.g., distractor modulation in visual cortex) could provide valuable converging evidence.

      Indeed, leveraging fMRI data in EEG studies would be very beneficial, as has been demonstrated in our previous work. However, given that this study concerns the temporal relationship between target and distractor processing, it is felt that fMRI data, which is known to possess low temporal resolution, has limited potential to contribute. We will be exploring this rich dataset in other ways in the future, where we will be integrating the two modalities for more insights that are not possible with either modality used alone.

      Author response image 1.

      Appyling moving window analysis (0.02s window duration and 0.01 step size) to a different EEG-fMRI dataset. (A) The amplitude time series of the 4.29 Hz component and the Fourier spectrum. (B) The group level Fourier spectrum. At both individual and group level, no 1 Hz modulation is observed, suggesting that the 1 Hz modulation observed in our data is not introduced by the artifact removal procedure.

      (2) In turn, removal of fMRI artifacts might introduce biases or alter the data. For instance, the authors might consider investigating potential fMRI artifact harmonics around 1 Hz to address concerns regarding induced spectral components.

      We have done extensive work in the area of simultaneous EEG-fMRI and have not encountered artifacts with a 1Hz rhythmicity. Our scanner artifact removal procedure is very standardized. As such, it stands to reason that if the 1Hz rhythmicity observed here results from the artifact removal process, it should also be present in other datasets where the same preprocessing steps were implemented. We tested this using another EEG-fMRI dataset (Rajan et al., 2019) . Author response image 1 shows that the EEG power time series of the new dataset doesn't have 1 Hz rhythmicity, whether at the individual level or at the group level, suggesting that the 1 Hz rhythmicity reported in the manuscript is not coming from the removal of the scanner artifacts, but instead reflects true rhythmic sampling of stimulus information. Also, the fact that the temporal relations between target processing and distractor processing at 1Hz impact behavior is another indication that the 1Hz rhythmicity is a neuroscientific effect, not an artifact.

      References

      Rajan, A., Siegel, S. N., Liu, Y., Bengson, J., Mangun, G. R., & Ding, M. (2019). Theta Oscillations Index Frontal Decision-Making and Mediate Reciprocal Frontal–Parietal Interactions in Willed Attention. Cerebral Cortex, 29(7), 2832–2843. https://doi.org/10.1093/cercor/bhy149

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      This report contains two parts. In the first part, several experiments were carried out to show that CsoR binds to CheA, inhibits CheA phosphorylation, and impairs P. putida chemotaxis. The second part provides some evidence that CsoR is a copper-binding protein, binds to CheA in a copper-dependent manner, and regulates P. putida response to copper, a chemorepellent. Based on these results, a working model is proposed to describe how CsoR coordinates chemotaxis and resistance to copper in P. putida. While the second part of the study is relatively solid, there are some major concerns about the first part.

      Critiques:

      (1) The rigor from prior research is not clear. In addition to talking about other bacterial chemotaxis, the Introduction should briefly summarize previous work on P. putida chemotaxis and copper resistance.

      We summarized previous results on P. putida copper resistance and added those results to the introduction section of the revised manuscript. As for chemotaxis, most studies in P. putida focused on the sensing/responding of the bacteria to different chemical compounds and the methyl-accepting chemotaxis proteins (MCPs) involved in the sensing, which is not relevant to the main content of this study. The component of the chemotaxis system in P. putida is similar to that in E. coli, and the signaling mechanism is presumably similar.

      (2) The rationale for identifying those CheA-binding proteins is vague. CheA has been extensively studied and its functional domains (P1 to P5) have been well characterized. Compared to its counterparts from other bacteria, does P. putida CheA contain a unique motif or domain? Does CsoR bind to other bacterial CheAs or only to P. putida CheA?

      The original purpose of the pull-down assay was to detect the interaction between CheA and c-di-GMP metabolizing enzymes, which was another project. However, we ignored that most c-di-GMP metabolizing enzymes were membrane proteins, and we made a mistake by using whole-cell lysate in the pull-down experiment. Thus, we failed to identify c-di-GMP metabolizing enzymes in “target” proteins of the pull-down assay. However, we found several novel “target” proteins in the pull-down assay. We wondered about the function of these proteins and the physiological roles of the interaction between CheA and these proteins, which was the primary purpose of this study. Although the function of CheA has been well characterized, most previous results focused on the role of CheA in chemotaxis, and its role in other bacterial processes was poorly studied. To extend our knowledge about CheA, we analyzed the results of the pull-down assay and decided to test the interaction between CheA and identified proteins, as well as the physiological roles of the interaction.

      BLAST results showed that the CheA of P. putida shared 41.12% sequence similarity with the CheA of E. coli, and the CheA of P. putida had a similar domain pattern to those CheAs from other bacteria. To test whether  CsoR<sub>P. putida</sub> interacted with CheA from other bacteria, we performed a BTH assay to investigate the interaction between  CsoR<sub>P. putida</sub> and eight CheAs, including CheA from E. coli, CheA from A. caldus, CheA from B. diazoefficiens, CheA from B. subtilis, CheA from L. monocytogenes, CheA from P. fluorescens, CheA from P. syringae, and CheA from P. stutzeri. As shown in the following Fig. 1,  CsoR<sub>P. putida</sub> could interact with CheA from A. caldus, B. subtilis, L. monocytogenes, P. fluorescens, P. syringae, and P. stutzeri. Besides, among these strains, cheA and csoR coexist in A. caldus, B. diazoefficiens, B. subtilis, L. monocytogenes, P. fluorescens, P. syringae, and P. stutzeri. We previously tested the interaction of the two proteins from these bacterial species. The results showed that the CheA-CsoR interaction existed between proteins from A. caldus, B. subtilis, P. syringae, and P. stutzeri (Fig. 7 in the manuscript). However, CheA and CsoR from B. diazoefficiens, L. monocytogenes, and P. fluorescens showed no apparent interaction (Fig. 7 in the manuscript). These results suggested that unique amino acid sequences in the two proteins might be required to achieve interaction.

      (3) Line 133-136, "Collectively, using pull-down, BTH, and BiFC assays, we identified 16 new CheA-interacting proteins in P. putida." It is surprising that so many proteins were identified but none of them were chemotaxis proteins, in particular those known to interact with CheA, such as CheW, CheY and CheZ, which raises a concern about the specificity of these methods. BTH and BiFC often give false-positive results and thus should be substantiated by other approaches such as co-IP, surface plasmon resonance (SPR), or isothermal titration calorimetry (ITC) along with mutagenesis studies.

      The response regulator CheY and the phosphatase CheZ (two proteins known to be associated with CheA) were identified in the pull-down assay (Table S1), and the two proteins showed high Log<sub>2</sub>(fold change) values, indicating that they were obtained in the pull-down assay with high amount in the experimental group and low amount in the control group. Our study aimed to identify new CheA-interacting proteins; thus, the two proteins (CheY and CheZ) were not included in subsequent investigations. The CheA-interacting proteins were initially obtained through an in vitro assay (pull-down), followed by an in vivo assay (BTH and BiFC) to test the interaction further. Only proteins that showed positive results in all three assays were considered trustworthy CheA-interacting proteins and kept for further study.

      (4) Line 147-149, "Fig. 2a, five strains (WT+pcsoR, WT+pispG, WT+pnfuA, WT+pphaD, and WT+pPP_1644) displayed smaller colony than the control strain (WT+pVec), indicating a weaker chemotaxis ability in these five strains." If copper is a chemorepellent, these strains should swim away from high concentrations of copper; thus, the sizes of colonies couldn't be used to measure this response. In the cited reference (reference 29), bacterial response to phenol was measured using a response index (RI).

      Except for CsoR, the rest of the CheA-interacting proteins had no direct connection with copper and were involved in different processes (Table S1). A reasonable speculation is that these proteins involved in different processes can integrate signals from specific processes into chemotaxis by regulating CheA autophosphorylation, leading to better regulation of chemotaxis according to intracellular physiological state. We used semisolid nutrient agar plates to test and compare bacterial chemotaxis ability. In a fixed attractant/repellent gradient, chemokine, such as copper, can lead to two subpopulations traveling at different speeds, with the slower one being held back by the chemokinetic drift. In the case of semisolid plate migration, bacteria with chemotaxis ability formed large colonies by generating their gradient by consuming nutrients/producing toxic metabolic waste and following attractant/repellent gradients leading outward from the colony origin (Cremer et al., 2019. Nature 575:658–663). The observation of successive sharp circular bands (rings) progressing outward from the inoculation point was taken to confirm the chemotaxis genotype, and mutants without chemotaxis spread out uniformly and formed a small colony (Wolfe and Berg, PNAS. 1989, 86:6973-6977). In our experiment, we were unsure about the signals/chemokines of each target protein, so we could not design a fixed attractant/repellent gradient. Besides, all target proteins interacted with CheA, which is a crucial factor in chemotaxis, and we assume that these proteins would affect chemotaxis under overexpression conditions. Thus, we used semisolid nutrient plates to test and compare bacterial chemotaxis ability.

      (5) Figures 2 and 3 show both CsoR and PhaD bind to CheA and inhibit CheA autophosphorylation. Do these two proteins share any sequence or structural similarity? Does PhaD also bind to copper? Otherwise, it is difficult to understand these results.

      Thanks a lot. This is an enlightening comment. CsoR is a protein with a size of 10.8 kDa, and PhaD is 23.1 kDa. Because of the difference in size, we took it for granted that the two proteins were not similar. We recently compared their sequence on NCBI BLAST. Although both CsoR and PhaD are transcriptional regulators and interact with CheA, they have no significant sequence similarity. In terms of protein structure, we predicted their structures using AlphaFold. The results showed that CsoR consisted of three α-helixes and PhaD consisted of nine α-helixes (new Fig. S5a and S5b in the manuscript). We further compared their structure using Pymol but found no significant similarity between the two proteins (new Fig. S5c in the manuscript).

      PhaD is a TetR family transcriptional regulator located adjacent to the genes involved in PHA biosynthesis, and it behaves as a carbon source-dependent activator of the pha cluster related to polyhydroxyalkanoates (PHAs) biosynthesis (de Eugenio et al., Environ Microbiol. 2010, 12:1591-1603; Tarazona et al., Environ Microbiol. 2020, 22:3922-3936). Bacterial PHAs are isotactic polymers synthesized under unfavorable growth conditions in the presence of excess carbon sources. PHAs are critical in central metabolism, acting as dynamic carbon reservoirs and reducing equivalents (Gregory et al., Trends Mol Med. 2022, 28:331-342). The interaction between PhaD and CheA leads us to speculate that there might be some connection between PHA synthesis and bacterial chemotaxis. For example, chemotaxis helps bacteria move towards specific carbon sources that favor PHA synthesis, and the interaction between PhaD and CheA weakens chemotaxis, causing bacteria to linger in areas rich in these carbon sources. This is an interesting hypothesis worth testing in the future.

      (6) Line 195-196, "CsoR/PhaD had no apparent influence on the phosphate transfer between CheA and CheY". CheA controls bacterial chemotaxis through CheY phosphorylation. If this is true, how do CsoR and PhaD affect chemotaxis?

      During the autophosphorylation assay, CheA was mixed with CsoR/PhaD and incubated for about 10 min before adding [<sup>32</sup>P]ATP[γP]. Thus, the effect of CsoR/PhaD on CheA autophosphorylation happened through the assay, and a significant inhibition effect was observed in the final result. Regarding transphosphorylation, CheA was mixed with ATP and incubated for about 30 min, at which time the autophosphorylation of CheA happened. Then, CsoR/PhaD and CheY were added to the phosphorylated CheA to investigate transphosphorylation. CsoR and PhaD affected chemotaxis via inhibiting CheA autophosphorylation, which was a crucial step in chemotaxis signaling, and the decrease in CheA autophosphorylation caused decreased chemotaxis.

      (7) Figure 3 shows that CsoR/PhaD bind to CheA through P1, P3, and P4. This result is intriguing. All CheA proteins contain these three domains. If this is true, CsoR/PhaD should bind to other bacterial CheAs too. That said, this experiment is premature and needs to be confirmed by other approaches.

      As replied to comment (2) above, we performed a BTH assay to investigate whether  CsoR<sub>P. putida</sub> interacts with CheA from other bacterial species. The results revealed that  CsoR<sub>P. putida</sub> interacted with CheA from A. caldus, B. subtilis, L. monocytogenes, P. fluorescens, P. syringae, and P. stutzeri, but not with CheA from E. coli and B. diazoefficiens. This result suggested that CheA-CsoR interaction required specific/unique amino acid sequence patterns in the two proteins, and similar domain composition alone was insufficient.

      (8) Figure 5, does PhaD contain these three residues (C40, H65, and C69)? If not, how does PhaD inhibit CheA autophosphorylation and chemotactic response to copper?

      No, there is no significant sequence similarity between PhaD and CsoR, and PhaD contains none of the three residues of CsoR (C40, H65, and C69). The size of the two proteins is also quite different (CsoR 10.8 kDa, PhaD 23.1 kDa). The structure alignment also revealed no apparent similarity between the predicted structures of PhaD and CsoR (new Fig. S5c in the manuscript). Nevertheless, CsoR and PhaD interacted with CheA through its P1, P3, and P4 domains. It is interesting how the two proteins interacted with CheA, but we currently have no answer.

      (9) Does deletion of cosR or cheA have any impact on P. putida resistance to high concentrations of copper?

      No, deletion of cosR/cheA had no noticeable impact on P. putida's resistance to high concentrations of copper. We performed a growth assay to test the effect of CsoR and CheA on copper resistance under both liquid and solid medium conditions. The copper concentration was set at 0, 200, 500, 1000 μM. With the increase of copper concentration, the growth of bacteria was gradually inhibited, but the growth trends of csoR mutant, cheA mutant, and complementary strains were similar to that of the wild-type strain (new Fig. S6b and S6c in the manuscript). We speculated that this might be attributed to CsoR being a repressor and inhibiting gene expression in the absence of copper. When copper existed, the inhibitory effect of CsoR was relieved, which is the same as that in the csoR mutant. Besides, although deletion of cosR led to a slight increase (about 1.3-fold) in the expression of copper resistance genes (Fig. 4b in the manuscript), its effect on gene expression was much weaker than its homologous protein in other bacterial species. In M. tuberculosis, B. subtilis, C. glutamicum, L. monocytogenes, and S. aureus, deletion of csoR resulted in an about 10-fold increase in the expression of target genes in the absence of copper. This difference might be attributed to several vital regulators that activated the expression of copper-resistance genes in response to copper in P. putida, such as CueR and CopR (Adaikkalam and Swarup, Microbiology. 2002, 148:2857-2867; Hofmann et al., Int J Mol Sci, 2021, 22:2050; Quintana et al., J Biol Chem, 2017, 292:15691-15704). CueR positively regulated the expression of cueA, encoding a copper-transporting P1-type ATPase that played a crucial role in copper resistance. CopR was essential for expressing several genes implicated in cytoplasmic copper homeostasis, such as copA-II, copB-II, and cusA. The existence of these positive regulators makes the function of CosR a secondary or even dispensable insurance in the expression of copper-resistance genes. Consistent with this, there is no CosR homolog in P. aeruginosa, and copper homeostasis is mainly controlled by CueR and CopR.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      This manuscript focuses on the apparent involvement of a proposed copper-responsive regulator in the chemotactic response of Pseudomonas putida to Cu(II), a chemorepellent. Broadly, this area is of interest because it could provide insight into how soil microbes mitigate metal stress. Additionally, copper has some historical agricultural use as an antimicrobial, thus can accumulate in soil. The manuscript bases its conclusions on an in vitro screen to identify interacting partners of CheA, an essential kinase in the P. putida chemotaxis-signaling pathway. Much of the subsequent analysis focuses on a regulator of the CsoR/RcnR family (PP_2969).

      Weaknesses:

      The data presented in this work does not support the model (Figure 8). In particular, PP_2969 is linked to Ni/Co resistance, not Cu resistance. Further, it is not clear how the putative new interactions with CheA would be integrated into diverse responses to various chemoattract/repellents. These two comments are justified below.

      Thanks a lot for all these comments. Before designing experiments to explore the function of PP_2969, we found three clues: (i) its sequence showed 38% similarity to the copper-responsive regulator CsoR of M. tuberculosis, and the three conserved amino acids essential for copper-binding were conserved in PP_2969; (ii) it located next to a Ni<sup>2+</sup>/Co<sup>2+</sup> transporter (PP_2968) on the genome; (iii) a previous report revealed that PP_2969 (also named MreA) expression increased during metal stress, and overexpression of PP_2969 in P. putida and E. coli led to metal accumulation (Zn, Cd, and Cr) (Lunavat et al., Curr Microbiol. 2022, 79:142). These clues indicate that the function of PP_2969 is related to metal-binding, but it remains to be explored which metal(s) PP_2969 binds to. Thus, we played MST assay to test the interaction between PP_2969 and metals, including copper (Cu<sup>2+</sup>), zinc (Zn<sup>2+</sup>), nickel (Ni<sup>2+</sup>), cobalt (Co<sup>2+</sup>), cadmium (Cd<sup>2+</sup>), and magnesium (Mg<sup>2+</sup>). The result showed that PP_2969 was bound to three metal ions (Cu<sup>2+</sup>, Zn<sup>2+</sup>, Ni<sup>2+</sup>), and the binding to Cu<sup>2+</sup> was the strongest. Besides, the EMSA assay revealed that Cu<sup>2+</sup>/Ni<sup>2+</sup>/Zn<sup>2+</sup> inhibited the interaction between PP_2969 and promoter DNA, and Cu<sup>2+</sup> showed the most substantial inhibitory effect at the same concentration. These results suggested that PP_2969 was mainly bound to Cu<sup>2+</sup>, followed by Zn<sup>2+</sup> and Ni<sup>2+</sup>. To further test whether PP_2969 functioned as a metal-responsive repressor and which metal resistance was related to its target gene, we constructed a PP_2969 deletion mutant and complementary strain and performed a qPCR assay to compare the expression of metal resistance-related genes. 14 metal-resistant-related genes were chosen as targets. The results showed that PP_2969 deletion led to a weak but significant increase (about 1.3-fold) in expression of 10 genes, including three copper-resistance genes (copA-I, copA-II, and copB-II), one nickel-resistance gene (nikB), two cadmium-resistance genes (cadA-I and cadA-III), one cobalt-resistance gene (cbtA), and three multiple metal-resistance genes (czcC-I, czcB-II, and PP_0026) (Fig. 4b, Fig. S5a in the manuscript). Meanwhile, complementation with a multicopy plasmid containing the PP_2969 gene decreased the gene expression in Δ_PP_2969_. Although PP_2969 regulated the expression of multiple metal resistance genes, it showed the most robust binding to Cu<sup>2+</sup>. Thus, we considered its primary function as a Cu<sup>2+</sup>-responsive regulator.

      As for the second comment, “How would the putative new interactions with CheA be integrated into diverse responses to various chemoattract/repellents?”, We have some speculations based on our results and previous reports. For example, PP_2969 interacted with CheA and decreased its autophosphorylation activity, and copper inhibited the interaction between CheA and PP_2969. In the absence of copper, PP_2969 binds to promoters to inhibit the expression of copper resistance genes, and it also binds to CheA to inhibit its autophosphorylation, resulting in lower chemotaxis. When the bacteria move to an area of high copper concentration, PP_2969 binds to copper and falls off the DNA promoter, leading to higher expression of copper resistance genes. Meanwhile, copper-binding of PP_2969 decreases its interaction with CheA, increasing CheA autophosphorylation promoting chemotaxis, and bacteria swim away from the high copper concentration. Another attractive target protein is PhaD, a TetR family transcriptional regulator located adjacent to the genes involved in PHA biosynthesis, and it behaves as a carbon source-dependent activator of the pha cluster related to polyhydroxyalkanoates (PHAs) biosynthesis (de Eugenio et al., Environ Microbiol. 2010, 12:1591-1603; Tarazona et al., Environ Microbiol. 2020, 22:3922-3936). Bacterial PHAs are isotactic polymers synthesized under unfavorable growth conditions in the presence of excess carbon sources. PHAs are critical in central metabolism, acting as dynamic carbon reservoirs and reducing equivalents (Gregory et al., Trends Mol Med. 2022, 28:331-342). The interaction between PhaD and CheA leads us to speculate that there might be some connection between PHA synthesis and bacterial chemotaxis. For example, chemotaxis helps bacteria move towards particular carbon sources that favor PHA synthesis; the regulator PhaD activates the genes related to PHA synthesis. Meanwhile, the interaction between PhaD and CheA weakens chemotaxis, causing bacteria to linger in areas rich in these carbon sources. Collectively, we speculate that by interacting with CheA and modulating its autophosphorylation, target proteins such as CsoR/PhaD integrate signals from their original process pathway into chemotaxis signaling.

      PP_2969

      (1) The authors present a sequence alignment (Figure S5) that is the sole basis for their initial assignment of this ORF as a CsoR protein. There is a conservation of the primary coordinating ligands (highlighted with asterisks) known to be involved in Cu(I) binding to CsoR (ref 31). There are some key differences, though, in residues immediately adjacent to the conserved Cys (the preceding Ala, which is Tyr in the other sequences). The effect of these changes may be significant in a physiological context.

      We constructed a point mutation in PP_2969 by replacing the Ala residue before the conserved Cys with a Tyr (CsoR<sub>A39Y</sub>) and then analyzed the effect of this mutation on CsoR. As shown in Author response image 1a, CsoR<sub>A39Y</sub> showed similar promoter-binding ability as the wild-type CsoR and the presence of Cu<sup>2+</sup> abolished the interaction between CsoR<sub>A39Y</sub> and DNA, suggesting that the A39 residue in PP_2969 was not essential for the DNA-binding and Cu<sup>2+</sup>-binding abilities. Besides, CsoR<sub>A39Y</sub> interacted with CheA as the wild-type CsoR did (Author response image 1b), indicating that the Ala39 residue was not required to interact with CheA.

      The CsoR from B. subtilis has a Tyr before the conserved Cys, which is the same as other sequences, and the BTH result showed that interaction existed between CsoR and CheA from B. subtilis (Fig. 7 in the manuscript).

      Author response image 1.

      The effect of CsoR point mutation (CsoR<sub>A39Y</sub>) on the DNA-binding and Cu<sup>2+</sup>-binding abilities of CsoR. (a) Analysis for interactions between CsoR/CsoR<sub>A39Y</sub> and copA-I promoter DNA using EMSA. The concentrations of CsoR/CsoR<sub>A39Y</sub> and Cu<sup>2+</sup> added in each lane are shown above the gel. Free DNA and protein-DNA complexes are indicated. (b) The interaction between CsoR/CsoR<sub>A39Y</sub> and CheA was tested by BTH. Blue indicates protein-protein interaction in the colony after 60 h of incubation, while white indicates no protein-protein interaction. CK+ represents positive control, and CK- represents negative control.

      (2) The gene immediately downstream of PP_2969 is homologous to E. coli RcnA, a demonstrated Ni/Co efflux protein, suggesting that P2969 may be Ni or Co responsive. Indeed PP_2970 has previously been reported as Ni/Co responsive (J. Bact 2009 doi:10.1128/JB.00465-09). The host cytosol plays a critical role in determining metal response, in addition to the protein, which can explain the divergence from the metal response expected from the alignment.

      Correction: The gene immediately upstream (not downstream) of PP_2969 (the ID is PP_2968, not PP_2970) is homologous to E. coli RcnA, a demonstrated Ni/Co efflux protein. The previous JBact study (J. Bact 2009 doi:10.1128/JB.00465-09) named PP_2968 as MrdH, and mrdH disruption led to sensitivity to cadmium, zinc, nickel, and cobalt, but not copper. Their results also revealed that MrdH was a broad-spectrum metal efflux transporter with a substrate range including Cd<sup>2+</sup>, Zn<sup>2+</sup>, and Ni<sup>2+</sup>. However, the role of MrdH in Cu<sup>2+</sup> efflux was not tested. Commonly, metal efflux transporter has a broad substrate spectrum, allowing transporters to influence bacterial resistance to a variety of metals (Munkelt et al., J Bacteriol. 2004, 186:8036-8043; Grass et al., J Bacteriol. 2005, 187:1604-1611; Nies et al., J Ind Microbiol. 1995, 14:186-199; Kelley et al., Metallomics. 2021, 13:mfaa002). Our results showed that PP_2969 bound to Cu<sup>2+</sup>, Zn<sup>2+</sup>, and Ni<sup>2+</sup> under our experimental conditions, and CsoR regulated the expression of genes related to Cu<sup>2+</sup>, Zn<sup>2+</sup>, and Ni<sup>2+</sup> resistance, indicating that CsoR was involved in resistance to these metals. But the binding of CsoR to Cu<sup>2+</sup> was the strongest, and Cu<sup>2+</sup> showed the most substantial inhibitory effect on CsoR-DNA interaction. Thus, we considered its primary function as a Cu<sup>2+</sup>-responsive regulator.

      (3) The previous JBact study also explains the lack of an effect (Figure 5b) of deleting PP_2969 on copper-efflux gene expression (copA-I, copA-II, and copB-II) as these are regulated by CueR not PP_2969 consistent with the previous report. Deletion of CsoR/RcnR family regulator will result in constitutive expression of the relevant efflux/detoxification gene, at a level generally equivalent to the de-repression observed in the presence of the signal.

      We performed qPCR to test the effect of PP_2969 on gene expression, and we chose 14 target genes, including copper-resistance genes, nickel-resistance genes, zinc-resistance genes, cadmium-resistance genes, and cobalt-resistance genes. The results showed that PP_2969 deletion led to a weak but significant increase (about 1.3-fold) in the expression of 10 genes (Fig. 4b, new Fig. S5a in the manuscript), and complementation with a multicopy plasmid containing PP_2969 gene decreased the gene expression in Δ_PP_2969_. We were confused about these results. Why was the effect of PP_2969 on gene expression so weak? Did we pick the wrong target genes? In other bacteria, deletion of csoR led to an about ten-fold increase in gene expression, generally equivalent to the de-repression observed in the presence of metal. Thus, to further identify target genes, we performed RNA-seq to compare the gene expression in WT and Δ_PP_2969_ without copper. The result surprised us because no gene expression levels changed more than two-fold (data not shown). This result might be attributed to several vital regulators that activated the expression of metal-resistance genes in response to metal in P. putida, such as CueR and CopR (Adaikkalam and Swarup, Microbiology. 2002, 148:2857-2867; Hofmann et al., Int J Mol Sci, 2021, 22:2050; Quintana et al., J Biol Chem, 2017, 292:15691-15704). CueR positively regulated the expression of cueA, encoding a copper-transporting P1-type ATPase that played a crucial role in copper resistance. CopR was essential for expressing several genes implicated in cytoplasmic copper homeostasis, such as copA-II, copB-II, and cusA. The existence of these positive regulators might make the function of CosR a secondary or even dispensable insurance in the expression of copper-resistance genes. Consistent with this, there is no CosR homolog in P. aeruginosa, and copper homeostasis is mainly controlled by CueR and CopR.

      (4) Further, CsoR proteins are Cu(I) responsive so measuring Cu(II) binding affinity is not physiologically relevant (Figures 5a and S5b). The affinities of demonstrated CsoR proteins are 10-18 M and these values are determined by competition assay. The MTS assay and resulting affinities are not physiologically relevant.

      Thank you for this enlightening comment. This question also confused us during our experiment. The first study on CsoR from Mycobacterium tuberculosis showed that CsoR bound a single-monomer mole equivalent of Cu(I) to form a trigonally coordinated complex, and that was a convincing result from protein structure analysis (Liu et al., Nat Chem Biol. 2007, 3:60-68). They further revealed that the presence of Cu(I) in the EMSA assay abolished the DNA-binding ability of CsoR, but the impact of Cu(II) was not tested. Besides, their results also showed that adding CuCl<sub>2</sub> in the medium induced the expression of the cso operon involved in copper resistance. Perhaps Cu(II) converted to Cu(I) and then bound to CsoR in bacterial cells. Later studies in diverse bacterial species (including Listeria monocytogenes, Corynebacterium glutamicum, Deinococcus radiodurans, and Thermus thermophilus) showed that in vitro assays with Cu(II) abolished the DNA-binding ability of CsoR, indicating that CsoR bound to both Cu (I) and Cu(II) (Corbett et al., Mol Microbiol. 2011, 81:457-472; Teramoto et al., Biosci Biotechnol Biochem. 2012, 76:1952-1958; Zhao et al., Mol Biosyst. 2014, 10:2607-2616; Sakamoto et al., Microbiology. 2010, 156:1993-2005). Here, our results from in vitro assays (MST and EMSA) showed that CsoR bound to Cu(II) and Cu(II) affected the interaction between CsoR and promoter DNA. Compounds containing Cu(I) are poorly soluble in water and easily oxidized by Cu(II). DTT can reduce Cu(II) to Cu(I) (Krzel et al., J Inorg Biochem. 2001, 84:77-88). To test whether Cu(I) bound to CsoR and affected its DNA-binding ability, we recently performed an EMSA assay with the addition of CuCl<sub>2</sub>/DTT/CuCl<sub>2</sub>+DTT. As shown in Fig. 4d, the addition of DTT (0.1 and 1 mM) decreased CsoR-DNA interaction in the presence of 0.2 mM CuCl<sub>2</sub>, while the addition of DTT alone had no apparent influence on CsoR-DNA interaction, indicating that DTT enhanced the inhibition of CuCl<sub>2</sub> on CsoR-DNA interaction, and the Cu(I) converted from Cu(II) by DTT had stronger inhibitory effect than Cu(II) on CsoR-DNA interaction. Together, these results suggested that CsoR bound to Cu(I) more strongly than it bound to Cu(II). We have added these results to the new version of manuscript.

      (5) The DNA-binding assays are carried out at protein concentrations well above physiological ranges (Figures 5c and d, and S5c, d). The weak binding will in part result from using DNA sequences upstream of the copA genes and not from PP_2970.

      We performed the vitro DNA-binding assay several times, and the lowest CsoR concentration used to obtain a shifted band was about 3 μM, and a higher concentration (15 μM) caused total DNA binding. Thus, we used the concentration of 15 and 20 μM to test the effect of metal on protein-DNA interaction in the assay. We also realized that these concentrations were above physiological ranges. We considered that the in vitro DNA-binding assay was only a mimic of the in vivo process, and the extracellular physiological conditions in EMSA might restrict the activity of CsoR. Besides, we recently performed EMSA to investigate the interaction between CsoR and its own promoter (csoRpro). As shown in Author response image 2, CsoR bound to csoRpro with a similar intensity to that it bound to copA-Ipro. Thus, the weak binding was not caused by the promoter used in the assay. 

      Author response image 2.

      The binding of CsoR to its own promoter (csoRpro) and copA-I promoter (copA-1pro) in EMSA. The concentrations of CsoR added in each lane are shown above the gel. Free DNA and CsoR-DNA complex are indicated.

      CheA interactions

      (1) There is no consideration given to the likely physiological relevance of the new interacting partners for CheA.

      Thank you for this comment. The initial purpose of this research was to identify new CheA-interacting proteins to broaden our knowledge of CheA and bacterial chemotaxis. Thus, we are currently focusing on the effect of the interaction on CheA and chemotaxis and trying to find the link between different processes and bacterial chemotaxis. We infer that the interaction between these new interacting partners and CheA can integrate signals from different pathways into the chemotaxis signaling pathway so that bacteria can better sense and adapt to different environments. Besides, the other role of the interaction, which is the influence of CheA on these new interacting partners, is also an exciting question that remains to be answered. Among the 16 new CheA-interacting proteins, five showed significant influence on chemotaxis, and the remaining 11 proteins had no obvious impact on chemotaxis (Fig. 2a in the manuscript). CsoR and PhaD inhibited CheA autophosphorylation, and here we focused on the effect of CsoR on chemotaxis. We also investigated the impact of CheA on CsoR, such as gene regulation and copper resistance. However, the results showed that CheA had no obvious influence on these functions of CsoR. The interactions between CheA and these proteins may be physiologically biased, with some interactions affecting the function of CheA and others mainly affecting the function of partners. Future studies on the function of these new CheA-interacting proteins and the role of CheA in regulating their functions would further expand our knowledge of CheA.

      (2) How much CheA is present in the cell (copies) and how many copies of other proteins are present? How would specific responses involving individual interacting partners be possible with such a heterogenous pool of putative CheA-complexes in a cell? For PP_2969, the affinity reported (Figure 5A) may lay at the upper end of the CsoR concentration range (for example, CueR in Salmonella is present at ~40 nM).

      Thank you for this insightful comment. We don’t know the copy number of CheA and other proteins in the cell. We were also initially surprised and felt skeptical about the reliability of CheA interaction with so many proteins. CheA interacts with CheY, CheW, and CheB in the classical chemotaxis pathway. This study found 16 new CheA-interacting proteins using pull-down assay and subsequent analysis. Moreover, in another unpublished result, we found that CheA interacted with eight c-di-GMP-metabolizing proteins, and CheA transferred the phosphate group to one of them. Together, it seemed that CheA could interact with at least 27 proteins. With such a heterogeneous pool of CheA-complexes, performing a specific response seemed difficult. However, several previous studies have reported the example of one protein interacting with dozens of proteins. For example, the c-di-GMP effector LapD in Pseudomonas fluorescens and Pseudomonas putida can interact with a dozen different c-di-GMP-metabolizing proteins (Giacalone et al., mBio. 2018, 9:e01254-18; Nie et al., Mol Microbiol. 2024, 121:1-17.) In Escherichia coli, a subset of DGCs and PDEs operated as central interaction hubs in a larger “supermodule” by interacting with dozens of proteins (Sarenko et al., mBio. 2017, 8:e01639-17). We infer that the expression of different CheA-interacting proteins might happen at different growth stages or under different conditions, and their interaction with CheA under that stage/condition changed bacterial chemotaxis or the process in which the target protein was involved.

      (3) The two-hybrid system experiment uses a long growth time (60 h) before analysis. Even low LacZ activity levels will generate a blue color, depending upon growth medium (see doi: 10.1016/0076-6879(91)04011-c). It is also not clear how Miller units can be accurately or precisely determined from a solid plate assay (the reference cited describes a protocol for liquid culture).

      We didn’t observe a blue color on the colony after 60 h growth on a plate under our experimental conditions. The BTH experiment was described as follows: After transforming the two plasmids into E. coli BTH101 cells, the plates containing transformants were placed at 28° for 48 h, at which time the colonies of the transformants were big enough to be picked up and incubated in a liquid medium for 24 h at 28°. Then, 5 μL of the culture was spotted onto an LB agar plate supplemented with antibiotics, X-gal, and IPTG and incubated for 60 h at 28° before taking the photos. After the photos were taken, the bacteria on the plate were scraped off and resuspended with buffer, and then the LacZ activity of the bacteria was tested. According to our experience, culture at 28°(lower than 30°) is a critical condition, and we have not observed false positives in BTH assays under this condition.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      In addition to genetic and biochemical approaches, structural studies should be conducted to elucidate the molecular interaction between CheA and CsoR with/without copper.

      It would be more logical to first establish the role of CsoR in copper regulation and chemotaxis (the second part of this report) and then investigate its underpinning mechanism (the first part).

      Thank you for these recommendations. Structural analysis can reveal more details about the molecular mechanism of CheA-CsoR interaction, but we currently don’t have sufficient experimental conditions for such structural analysis.

      As for the presentation logic of the results, we wrote the manuscript following the sequence of experiments. Firstly, screening of CheA interacting proteins (pull-down assay) was conducted, and then the influence of interacting proteins on the chemotaxis of strains and CheA autophosphorylation activity was detected. Based on these results, we obtained two proteins, CsoR and PhaD, and decided to go deeper into the function of CsoR and its effect on chemotaxis. We considered that this writing logic reflected our research design better and could also lay a foundation for future exploration of the functions of other interacting proteins and the physiological significance of interactions.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      A huge amount of effort has gone into this work.

      It would be good to see at least one of the newly identified interactions turn out to be physiologically relevant.

      The experimental tools appear to be available to do this, but it is critical to consider how these tools can lead to attempts to prove rather than test and possibly refute a model or hypothesis. In particular, please consider some of the comments about the physiological relevance of affinities when generating models.

      Thank you for these recommendations. Our study aimed to screen new interacting proteins of CheA and explore how new interacting proteins affect CheA activity and bacterial chemotaxis, thereby broadening our understanding of chemotaxis. However, the impact of each protein-protein interaction has two sides: the influence of A to B and B to A. During experimental design, we focused more on the influence of identified interacting proteins on CheA function and chemotaxis but paid less attention to the function of interacting proteins and the influence of the interaction on their function. Moreover, our study found that the influence of protein-protein interaction was biased. In the interaction between CsoR and CheA, CsoR mainly affected the function of CheA and then affected the chemotaxis, while CheA had no significant effect on the function of CsoR. This might be attributed to the weak effect of CsoR in regulating metal resistance in P. putida, and we speculated that this interaction was more about favoring the sensing and avoiding metal stress. In addition, we planned to explore the interaction between CheA and another interacting protein (PhaD) in the future, reveal the effect of the interaction on PhaD function (regulation of PHAS synthesis in bacteria), and explore the effect of the interaction on CheA function and chemotaxis, to find out whether the association existed between PHAS anabolism and bacterial chemotaxis. Besides, for those proteins that did not have significant effects on CheA autophosphorylation and bacterial chemotaxis, we speculated that CheA might affect their function/activity through interactions, which meant that the physiological effects of the interaction mainly reflected through the interacting protein rather than CheA. These are speculations that need to be tested by experiments.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Rossi et al. asked whether gait adaptation is solely a matter of slow perceptual realignment or if it also involves fast/flexible stimulus-response mapping mechanisms. To test this, they conducted a series of split-belt treadmill experiments with ramped perturbations, revealing behavior indicative of a flexible, automatic stimulus-response mapping mechanism.

      Strengths:

      (1) The study includes a perceptual test of leg speed, which correlates with the perceptual realignment component of motor aftereffects. This indicates that there are motor performances that are not accounted for by perceptual re-alignment.

      (2) They study incorporates qualitatively distinct, hypothesis-driven models of adaptation and proposes a new framework that integrates these various mechanisms.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The study could benefit from considering other alternative models. As the authors noted in their discussion, while the descriptive models explain some patterns of behaviour/aftereffects, they don't currently account for how these mechanisms influence the initial learning process itself.

      (1a) For example, the pattern of gait asymmetric might differ for perceptual realignment (a smooth, gradual process), structural learning (more erratic, involving hypothesis testing/reasoning to understand the perturbation, see (Tsay et al. 2024) for a recent review on Reasoning), and stimulus-response mapping (possibly through a reinforcement based trial-and-error approach). If not formally doing a model comparison, the manuscript might benefit from clearly laying out the behavioural predictions for how these different processes shape initial learning.

      (1b) Related to the above, the authors noted that the absence of difference during initial learning suggests that the differences in Experiment 2 in the ramp-up phase are driven by two distinct processes: structural learning and memory-based processes. If the assumptions about initial learning are not clear, this logic of this conclusion is hard to follow.

      Thank you for this insightful comment. We agree that considering alternative models and clarifying their potential contributions to the initial learning process would enhance the manuscript. We performed additional analyses and revised the text to outline how the mechanisms of adaptation in our study align with the framework described by Tsay et al. (2024) regarding the initial learning process and other features of adaptation.

      First, we referenced the Tsay et al. framework in the Introduction and Discussion to highlight parallels between their description of implicit adaptation and our forward model recalibration mechanism (producing motor changes and perceptual realignment). Specifically, the features defining recalibration in our study – gradual, trial-by-trial adjustments, rigid learning that leads to aftereffects, and limited contribution to generalization – align with those described by Tsay et al.

      Second, we used the description provided by Tsay et al. to test the presence of explicit strategies in our study. We specifically test for the criteria of reportability and intentionality, corroborating the finding that our stimulus response mapping mechanism differs from explicit strategies.

      “A recent framework for motor learning by Tsay et al. defines explicit strategies as motor plans that are both intentional and reportable (Tsay et al., 2024). Within this framework, Tsay et al. clarify that "intentional" means participants deliberately perform the motor plan, while "reportable" means they are able to clearly articulate it.” (Experiment 2 Results, lines 515-518).

      “…the motor adjustments reported by participants consistently fail to meet the criteria for explicit strategies as outlined by Tsay et al.: reportability and intentionality (Tsay et al., 2024).” (Discussion, lines 657-660).

      Third, we interpreted the operation of stimulus-response mapping within the Tsay theoretical framework for the three stages of motor learning: 1) “reasoning” to acquire new action–outcome relationships, 2) “refinement” of the motor action parameters, and 3) “retrieval” of learnt motor actions based on contextual cues. We note that the definition of these stages closely aligns with our definition for stimulus response mapping mechanisms. Moreover, according to Tsay’s definition, both implicit and explicit learning mechanisms can involve similar reasoning and retrieval processes. This shared operational basis may explain why our stimulus-response mapping mechanism exhibits some characteristics associated with explicit strategies, such as flexibility and generalizability.

      We performed a new analysis to evaluate Tsay’s framework predictions that, if walking adaptation includes a stimulus-response mapping mechanism following these three stages of motor learning, the learning process would initially be erratic and would then stabilize as learning progresses. We assessed within-participant residual variance in step length asymmetry around a double exponential model fit during adaptation, testing the prediction that this variability would decrease between the start and end of adaptation. Experiment 1 results confirmed this prediction, showing that a significant reduction in variability as adaptation progressed.

      “We finally tested whether the pattern of motor variability during adaptation aligns with predictions for learning new  stimulus response maps. In contrast to recalibration, mapping mechanisms are predicted to be highly  variable  and  erratic  during  early learning, and stabilize as learning progresses (Tsay et al., 2024). Consistent with these predictions,  the  step  length  asymmetry residual  variance  (around  a  double exponential  fit)  decreased  significantly between the start and end of adaptation (residual variance at start minus end of adaptation = 0.005 [0.004, 0.007], mean [CI]; SI Appendix, Fig. S3). These control analyses corroborate the hypothesis that the “no aftereffects” region of the Ramp Down reflects the operation of a mapping mechanism.”

      (Experiment 1 Results, lines 187-194; Methods, lines 1040-1050).

      Moreover, Experiment 2 results demonstrated that the pattern of variability (its magnitude and decay in adaptation) did not differ between participants using memory-based versus structure-based stimulus-response mapping mechanisms. These findings suggest that both types of mapping operate accordingly to Tsay’s stages of motor learning.

      “Furthermore, the pattern of step length asymmetry variability was similar between the subgroups (structure – memory difference in residual variance relative to double exponential during initial adaptation = -0.0052 [0.0161, 0.0044], adaptation plateau = -0.0007 [-0.0021, 0.0003], difference in variance decay = -0.0045 [-0.0155, 0.0052], mean [CI]; SI Appendix, Fig. S16). This confirms that the distinct performance clusters in the Ramp Up & Down task are not driven by natural variations in learning ability, such as differences in learning speed or variability. Rather, these findings indicate that the subgroups employ different types of mapping mechanisms, which perform similarly during initial learning but differ fundamentally in how they encode, retrieve, and generalize relationships between perturbations and Δ motor outputs.” (Experiment 2 Results, lines 503-511).

      “Both memory- and structure-based operations of mapping align with Tsay et al.’s framework for motor learning: first, action–outcome relationships are learned through exploration; second, motor control policies are refined to optimize rewards or costs, such as reducing error; and finally, learned mappings or policies are retrieved based on contextual cues (Tsay et al., 2024). Consistent with the proposed stages of exploration followed by refinement, we found that motor behavior during adaptation was initially erratic but became less variable at later stages of learning. Similarly, consistent with the retrieval stage, the generalization observed in the ramp tasks indicates that learned motor outputs are flexibly retrieved based on belt speed cues.” (Discussion, lines 701-708).

      Finally, we addressed the prediction outlined by Tsay et al. that repeated exposure to perturbations attenuates the magnitude of forward model recalibration, with savings being driven by stimulus-response mapping mechanisms. While we could not directly test savings for the primary perturbation used during adaptation, we were able to indirectly evaluate savings for a different perturbation through analyses of our control experiments combined with previous results from Leech et al. (Leech et al., 2018). Specifically, we examined how motor aftereffects and perceptual realignment evolved across repeated iterations of the speed-matching task post-adaptation in Ascending groups. Each task began with the right leg stationary and the left leg moving at 0.5 m/s – a configuration corresponding to a perturbation of -0.5 m/s, which is opposite in direction to the adaptation perturbation. By analyzing repeated exposures to this -0.5 m/s perturbation across iterations, we gained insights into the learning dynamics associated with this perturbation and the effect of repeated exposures on motor aftereffects and perceptual realignment. Consistent with predictions from Tsay et al., our results combined with Leech et al. demonstrate that, with repeated exposures to the same perturbation, perceptual realignment decays while the contribution of stimulus-response mapping to aftereffect savings is enhanced. We present this analysis and interpretation in Control Experiments Results, lines 429-442; Figure 8B; Table S7; and Discussion lines 709-753.

      (1c) The authors could also test a variant of the dual-rate state-space model with two perceptual realignment processes where the constraints on retention and learning rate are relaxed. This model would be a stronger test for two perceptual re-alignment processes: one that is flexible and another that is rigid, without mandating that one be fast learning and fast forgetting, and the other be slow learning and slow forgetting.

      We tested multiple variants of the suggested models, and confirmed that they cannot capture the motor behavior observed in our Ramp Down task. We include Author response image 1 with the models fits, Author response table 1 with the BIC statistics, and the models equations below. Only the recalibration + mapping model captures the matching-then-divergent behavior of the Δ motor output, corroborating our interpretation that state-space based models cannot capture the mapping mechanism (see Discussion, “Implications for models of adaptation”). Furthermore, all models fit the data significantly worse than the recalibration+mapping model according to the BIC statistic.

      Model fits:

      Author response image 1.

      Statistical results:

      Author response table 1.

      Model definitions:

      • DualStateRelaxed: same equations as the original Dual State, but no constraints dictating the relative relationship between the parameters

      • DualStateRelaxedV2: same equations as the original Dual State, but no constraints dictating the relative relationship between the parameters, and “loose” parameter bounds (parameters can take values between -10 to 10).

      • PremoOriginalRelaxed: PReMo with two states (see below), no constraints dictating the relative relationship between the parameters

      • PremoOriginalRelaxed: PReMo with two states (see below), no constraints dictating the relative relationship between the parameters, and “loose” parameter bounds (parameters can take values between -10 to 10).

      PReMo with two states – the remaining equations are the same as the original PReMo (see Methods):

      (2) The authors claim that stimulus-response mapping operates outside of explicit/deliberate control. While this could be true, the survey questions may have limitations that could be more clearly acknowledged.

      (2a) Specifically, asking participants at the end of the experiments to recall their strategies may suffer from memory biases (e.g., participants may be biased by recent events, and forget about the explicit strategies early in the experiment), be susceptible to the framing of the questions (e.g., participants not being sure what the experimenter is asking and how to verbalize their own strategy), and moreover, not clear what is the category of explicit strategies one might enact here which dictates what might be considered "relevant" and "accurate".

      (2b) The concept of perceptual realignment also suggests that participants are somewhat aware of the treadmill's changing conditions; therefore, as a thought experiment, if the authors have asked participants throughout/during the experiment whether they are trying different strategies, would they predict that some behaviour is under deliberate control?

      We have expanded the discussion to explicitly acknowledge that our testing methodology for assessing explicit strategies may have limitations, recognizing the factors mentioned by the reviewer. Moreover, as mentioned in response to comment (1), we leveraged the framework from Tsay et al., 2024 and its definition of explicit strategies to ensure a robust and consistent approach in interpreting the survey responses.

      We revised the Experiment 2 Results section, lines 515-518, to specify that we are evaluating the presence of explicit strategies according to the criteria of intentionality and reportability:

      “A recent framework for motor learning by Tsay et al. defines explicit strategies as motor plans that are both intentional and reportable (Tsay et al., 2024). Within this framework, Tsay et al. clarify that "intentional" means participants deliberately perform the motor plan, while "reportable" means they are able to clearly articulate it.”

      We then reorganized the Discussion to include a separate section “Mapping operates independently of explicit control”, lines 646-661, where we discuss limitations of the survey methodology and interpretation of the results according to Tsay et al., 2024:

      “Here, we show that explicit strategies are not systematically used to adapt step length asymmetry and Δ motor output: the participants in our study either did not know what they did, reported changes that did not actually occur or would not lead symmetry. Only one person reported “leaning” on the left (slow) leg for as much time as possible, which is a relevant but incomplete description for how to walk with symmetry. Four reports mentioned pressure or weight, which may indirectly influence symmetry (Hirata et al., 2019; Lauzière et al., 2014), but they were vague and conflicting (e.g., “making heavy steps on the right foot” or “put more weight on my left foot”). All other responses were null, explicitly wrong or irrelevant, or overly generic, like wanting to “stay upright” and “not fall down”. We acknowledge that our testing methodology has limitations. First, it may introduce biases related to memory recall or framing of the questionnaire. Second, while it focuses on participants' intentional use of explicit strategies to control walking, it does not rule out the possibility of passive awareness of motor adjustments or treadmill configurations. Despite these limitations, the motor adjustments reported by participants consistently fail to meet the criteria for explicit strategies as outlined by Tsay et al.: reportability and intentionality (Tsay et al., 2024). Together with existing literature, this supports the interpretation that stimulus response mapping operates automatically.”

      We also made the following addition to the “Limitations” section of the Discussion (lines 917-919):

      “While mapping differs from explicit strategies as they are currently defined, we still lack a comprehensive framework to capture the varying levels and nuanced characteristics of intentionality and awareness of different mechanisms (Tsay et al., 2024).”

      We finally note that “Unlike explicit strategies, which are rapidly acquired and diminish over time, this mapping mechanism exhibits prolonged learning beyond 15 minutes, with a rate comparable to recalibration” (Discussion, lines 632-634).

      (3) The distinction between structural and memory-based differences in the two subgroups was based on the notion that memory-based strategies increase asymmetry. However, an alternative explanation could be that unfamiliar perturbations, due to the ramping up, trigger a surprise signal that leads to greater asymmetry due to reactive corrections to prevent one's fall - not because participants are generalizing from previously learned representations (e.g., (Iturralde & Torres-Oviedo, 2019)).

      We agree that reactive corrections could contribute to the walking pattern in response to split-belt perturbations, as detailed by Iturralde & Torres-Oviedo, 2019. We also acknowledge that reactive corrections are rapid, flexible, feedback-driven, and automatic – characteristics that make them appear similar to stimulus-response mapping. However, a detailed evaluation of our results suggests that the behaviors observed in the ramp tasks cannot be fully explained by reactive corrections. Reactive corrections occur almost immediately, quickly adjusting the walking pattern to reduce error and improve stability. This excludes the possibility that what we identified as stimulusresponse mapping could instead be reactive corrections, because the stimulus-response mapping observed in our study is acquired slowly at a rate comparable to recalibration. It also excludes the possibility that the increased asymmetry in the Ramp Up & Down could be due to reactive corrections, because these would operate alongside mapping to help reduce asymmetry rather than exacerbate it.

      We made substantial revisions to the Discussion and included the section “Stimulus-response mapping is flexible but requires learning” to explain this interpretation (lines 595-622):

      “The mapping mechanism observed in our study aligns with the corrective responses described by Iturralde and Torres-Oviedo, which operate relative to a recalibrated "new normal" rather than relying solely on environmental cues (Iturralde and Torres-Oviedo, 2019). Accordingly, our findings suggest a tandem architecture: forward model recalibration adjusts the nervous system's "normal state," while stimulus-response mapping computes motor adjustments relative to this "new normal." This architecture explains the sharp transition from flexible to rigid motor adjustments observed in our Ramp Down task. The transition occurs at the configuration perceived as "equal speeds" (~0.5 m/s speed difference) because this corresponds to the recalibrated “new normal”.

      In the first half of the Ramp Down, participants adequately modulated their walking pattern to accommodate the gradually diminishing perturbation, achieving symmetric step lengths. Due to the recalibrated “new normal”, perturbations within this range are perceived as congruent with the direction of adaptation but reduced in magnitude. This allows the mapping mechanism to flexibly modulate the walking pattern by using motor adjustments previously learned during adaptation. Importantly, the rapid duration of the Ramp Down task rules out the possibility that the observed modulation may instead reflect washout, as confirmed by the fact the aftereffects measured post-Ramp-Down were comparable to previous work (Kambic et al., 2023; Reisman et al., 2005).

      In the second half of the Ramp Down, aftereffects emerged as participants failed to accommodate perturbations smaller than the recalibrated “new normal”. These perturbations were perceived as opposite to the adaptation perturbation and, therefore, novel. Accordingly, the mapping mechanism responded as it would to a newly introduced perturbation, rather than leveraging previously learned adjustments (Iturralde and Torres-Oviedo, 2019). Due to the rapid nature of the Ramp Down, the mapping mechanism lacked sufficient time to learn the novel motor adjustments required for these perturbations – a process that typically takes several minutes, as shown by our baseline ramp tasks and control experiments. As mapping-related learning was negligible, the rigid recalibration adjustments dominated during this phase. Consequently, the walking pattern did not change to accommodate the gradually diminishing perturbation, leading to the emergence of aftereffects.”

      (4) Further contextualization: Recognizing the differences in dependent variables (reaching position vs. leg speed/symmetry in walking), could the Proprioceptive/Perceptual Re-alignment model also apply to gait adaptation (Tsay et al., 2022; Zhang et al., 2024)? Recent reaching studies show a similar link between perception and action during motor adaptation (Tsay et al., 2021) and have proposed a model aligning with the authors' correlations between perception and action. The core signal driving implicit adaptation is the discrepancy between perceived and desired limb position, integrating forward model predictions with proprioceptive/visual feedback.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion and agree that the Proprioceptive Re-alignment model (PReMo) and Perceptual Error Adaptation model (PEA), offer valuable insights into the relationship between perception and motor adaptation. To explore whether these frameworks apply to gait adaptation, we conducted an extensive modeling analysis. This is shown in Figure 5 and Supplementary Figures S7-S8, and is detailed in the text of Experiment 1 Results section “Modelling analysis for perceptual realignment” (lines 327–375), Methods section “Proprioceptive re-alignment model (PReMo)” (lines 1181-1221), Methods section “Perceptual Error Adaptation model (PEA)” (lines 1222-1247), Methods section “Perceptuomotor recalibration + mapping (PM-ReMap)” (lines 1248-1286), and SI Appendix section “Evaluation and development of perceptual models.” (lines 99-237).

      First, we evaluated how PReMo and PEA models fitted our Ramp Down data. We translated the original variables to walking adaptation variables using a conceptual equivalence explained by one of the features explored by Tsay et al. (2022). Specifically, the manuscript provides guidance on extending the PReMo model from visuomotor adaptation in response to visual-proprioceptive discrepancies, to force-field adaptation in response to mechanical perturbations – which share conceptual similarities with split-belt treadmill perturbations. The manuscript also discusses that, if vision is removed, the proprioceptive shift decays back to zero according to a decay parameter. This description entails that proprioceptive shift cannot increase or develop in the absence of vision. We applied the models to split-belt adaptation in accordance with this information, as described in the SI Appendix: “PReMo variables equivalents for walking adaptation”. As reported in Experiment 1 Results “Modelling analysis for perceptual realignment” (lines 327–375) and Figure 5, neither PReMo nor PEA adequately captured the key features of our Ramp Down data: “The models could not capture the matching-then-divergent behavior of Δ motor output, performing significantly worse than the recalibration + mapping model (PReMo minus recalibration+mapping BIC difference = 24.591 [16.483, 32.037], PEA minus recalibration+mapping BIC difference = 6.834 [1.779, 12.130], mean [CI]). Furthermore, they could not capture the perceptual realignment and instead predicted that the right leg would feel faster than the left throughout the entire Ramp Down”.

      Second, we used simulations to confirm that PReMo and PEA cannot account for the perceptual realignment observed in our study, and to understand why. At adaptation plateau, PReMo predicts that perceived and actual step length asymmetry converge, as shown in Fig. S7A, top, and as detailed in the SI Appendix “Original PReMo simulations”. We found that this is because PReMo assumes that perceptual realignment arises specifically from mismatches between different sensory modalities. This assumption works for paradigms that introduce an actual mismatch between sensory modalities, such as visuomotor adaptation paradigms with a mismatch between vision and proprioception. This assumption also works for paradigms that indirectly introduce a mismatch between integrated sensory information from different sensory modalities. In force-field adaptation, both proprioceptive and visual inputs are present and realistic, but when these inputs are integrated with sensory predictions, the resulting integrated visual estimate is mismatched compared to the integrated proprioceptive estimate. In contrast, the assumption that perceptual realignment arises from sensory modalities mismatches does not work for paradigms that involve a single sensory modality. Split-belt adaptation only involves proprioception as no visual feedback is given, and perceptual realignment arises from discrepancies between predicted and actual motor outcomes, rather than between integrated sensory modalities.

      To overcome this limitation, we reinterpreted the variables of the PReMo model, while keeping the original equations, to account for realignment driven by mismatches of the same nature as the perturbation driving adaptation. As reported in the SI Appendix “Iterative simulations for the development of PM-ReMap”, the simulation (Fig. S7A, middle row) “showed perceptual realignment at adaptation plateau, addressing a limitation of the original model. However, it failed to account for the Ramp Down perceptual results, inaccurately predicting that belt speeds feel equal when they are actually equal (Fig. S7A, middle row, perceived perturbation decays alongside actual perturbation and converge to zero at the end of the Ramp Down). […] This occurs because, under the retained PReMo equations, β<sub>p</sub> and β<sub>v</sub> change immediately and are proportional to the difference between and on each trial, so that they ramp down to zero in parallel with the perturbation”.

      We also noted that the simulations of the original and reinterpreted PReMo models could also not support the operation of the mapping mechanism observed in the Ramp Down (Fig. S7B). We describe that “This occurs because the overall motor output x<sub>p</sub>, which includes both recalibration and mapping mechanisms, changes gradually according to the learning rate 𝐾. Consequently, changes in 𝐺 take many trials to be fully reflected in x<sub>p</sub>. Hence, we found complementary limitations where PReMo assumes perceptual realignment changes immediately while mapping adjustments develop gradually – but the opposite is true in our data”.

      We therefore modified the PReMo equations and developed a new model, called perceptuomotor recalibration + mapping (PM-ReMap) that addresses these limitations and is able to capture our Ramp Down motor and perceptual results. As described in the SI Appendix “Iterative simulations for the development of PM-ReMap”, “we introduced an update equation for β<sub>p</sub> so that it changes gradually trial-by-trial according to the learning rate 𝐾. We then removed the learning rate from the update equation for x<sub>p</sub> so that it integrates two distinct types of changes: 1) the gradual changes in driven by β<sub>p</sub> and representing the recalibration mechanism, and 2) the immediate changes in 𝐺 – representing the mapping mechanism”. The final equations of the PM-ReMap model are as follows:

      As reported in Experiment 1 Results, “Modelling analysis for perceptual realignment”, and as shown in Fig. 5C, “the PM-ReMap model captured the Δ motor output in the Ramp Down with performance comparable to that of the recalibration + mapping model (BIC difference = 2.381 [-0.739, 5.147], mean [CI]). It also captured perceptual realignment, predicting that some intermediate belt speed difference in the Ramp Down is perceived as “equal speeds” (, Fig. 5C)”. We also found that the estimated aligned with the empirical measurement of the PSE in the Ramp Down both at group and individual level: “At group level, was comparable to the upper bound of compensation<sub>perceptual</sub> (difference = -7 [-15, 1]%, mean [CI]), but significantly larger than the lower bound (difference = 19 [8, 31]%, mean [CI]). Furthermore, we found a significant correlation between individual participants’ and their upper bound of compensation<sub>perceptual</sub> (r=0.63, p=0.003), but not their lower bound (r=0.30, p=0.203). Both sets of results are consistent with those observed for the recalibration + mapping model”.

      Based on these findings, we summarize that PM-ReMap “extends the recalibration + mapping model by incorporating the ability to account for forgetting – typical of state space models – while still effectively capturing both recalibration and mapping mechanisms. However, performance of the PM-ReMap model does not exceed that of the simpler recalibration + mapping model, suggesting that forgetting and unlearning do not have a substantial impact on the Ramp Down”.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Recent findings in the field of motor learning have pointed to the combined action of multiple mechanisms that potentially contribute to changes in motor output during adaptation. A nearly ubiquitous motor learning process occurs via the trial-by-trial compensation of motor errors, often attributed to cerebellar-dependent updating. This error-based learning process is slow and largely unconscious. Additional learning processes that are rapid (e.g., explicit strategy-based compensation) have been described in discrete movements like goal-directed reaching adaptation. However, the role of rapid motor updating during continuous movements such as walking has been either under-explored or inconsistent with those found during the adaptation of discrete movements. Indeed, previous results have largely discounted the role of explicit strategy-based mechanisms for locomotor learning. In the current manuscript, Rossi et al. provide convincing evidence for a previously unknown rapid updating mechanism for locomotor adaptation. Unlike the now well-studied explicit strategies employed during reaching movements, the authors demonstrate that this stimulus-response mapping process is largely unconscious. The authors show that in approximately half of subjects, the mapping process appears to be memory-based while the remainder of subjects appear to perform structural learning of the task design. The participants that learned using a structural approach had the capability to rapidly generalize to previously unexplored regions of the perturbation space.

      One result that will likely be particularly important to the field of motor learning is the authors' quite convincing correlation between the magnitude of proprioceptive recalibration and the magnitude error-based updating. This result beautifully parallels results in other motor learning tasks and appears to provide a robust marker for the magnitude of the mapping process (by means of subtracting off the contribution of error-based motor learning). This is a fascinating result with implications for the motor learning field well beyond the current study.

      A major strength of this manuscript is the large sample size across experiments and the extent of replication performed by the authors in multiple control experiments.

      Finally, I commend the authors on extending their original observations via Experiment 2. While it seems that participants use a range of mapping mechanisms (or indeed a combination of multiple mapping mechanisms), future experiments may be able to tease apart why some subjects use memory versus structural mapping. A future ability to push subjects to learn structurally-based mapping rules has the potential to inform rehabilitation strategies.

      Overall, the manuscript is well written, the results are clear, and the data and analyses are convincing. The manuscript's weaknesses are minor, mostly related to the presentation of the results and modeling.

      Weaknesses:

      The overall weaknesses in the manuscript are minor and can likely be addressed with textual changes.

      (1) A key aspect of the experimental design is the speed of the "ramp down" following the adaptation period. If the ramp-down is too slow, then no after-effects would be expected even in the alternative recalibration-only/errorbased only hypothesis. How did the authors determine the appropriate rate of ramp-down? Do alternative choices of ramp-down rates result in step length asymmetry measures that are consistent with the mapping hypothesis?

      We thank the reviewer for their insightful comment regarding the rate of the Ramp Down following the adaptation period and its potential impact on aftereffects under different hypotheses. We added a detailed explanation for how we determined the Ramp Down design, including analyses of previous work, to the SI Appendix, “Ramp Down design”, lines 22-98. We also describe the primary points in the main Methods section, “Ramp Tasks”, lines 978-991:

      As described in SI Appendix, “Ramp Down design”, the Ramp Down task was specifically designed to measure the pattern of aftereffects in a way that ensured reliable and robust measurements with sufficient resolution across speeds, and that minimized washout to prevent confounding the results. To balance time constraints with a measurement resolution adequate for capturing perceptual realignment, we used 0.05 m/s speed decrements, matching the perceptual sensitivity estimated from our re-analysis of the baseline data from Leech et al. (Leech et al., 2018a). To obtain robust motor aftereffect measurements, we collected three strides at each speed condition, as averaging over three strides represents the minimum standard for consistent and reliable aftereffect estimates in split-belt adaptation (typically used in catch trials) (Leech et al., 2018a; Rossi et al., 2019; Vazquez et al., 2015). To minimize unwanted washout by forgetting and/or unlearning, we did not pause the treadmill between adaptation and the post-adaptation ramp tasks, and ensured the Ramp Down was relatively quick, lasting approximately 80 seconds on average. Of note, the Ramp Down design ensures that even in cases of partial forgetting, the emergence pattern of aftereffects remains consistent with the underlying hypotheses.

      In the SI Appendix, we explain that, while we did not test longer ramp-down durations directly, previous data suggest that durations of up to at least 4.5 minutes would yield step length asymmetry measures consistent with our results and the mapping hypothesis. Additionally, our control experiments replicated the behavior observed in the Ramp Down using speed match tasks lasting only 30 seconds, further supporting the robustness of our findings across varying durations.

      (2) Overall, the modeling as presented in Figure 3 (Equation 1-3) is a bit convoluted. To my mind, it would be far more useful if the authors reworked Equations 1-3 and Figure 3 (with potential changes to Figure 2) so that the motor output (u) is related to the stride rather than the magnitude of the perturbation. There should be an equation relating the forward model recalibration (i.e., Equation 1) to the fraction of the motor error on a given stride, something akin to u(k+1) = r * (u(k) - p(k)). This formulation is easier to understand and commonplace in other motor learning tasks (and likely what the authors actually fit given the Smith & Shadmehr citation and the derivations in the Supplemental Materials). Such a change would require that Figure 3's independent axes be changed to "stride," but this has the benefit of complementing the presentation that is already in Figure 5.

      We reworked these equations (now numbered 4-6, lines 207-209) so that the motor output u is related to stride k as suggested by the reviewer:

      We changed Figure 2 and Figure 3 accordingly, adding a “stride” x-axis to the Ramp Down data figure.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      I think that some changes to the text/ordering could improve the manuscript's readability. In particular:

      (1) My feeling is that much of the equations presented in the Methods section should be moved to the Results section. Particularly Equations 9-11. The introduction of these motor measures should likely precede Figure 1, as their definitions form the crux of Figure 1 and the subsequent analyses.

      (2) It is unclear to me why many of the analyses and discussion points have been relegated to Supplemental Material. I would significantly revise the manuscript to move much of the content from Supplemental Material to the Methods and Discussion (where appropriate). Even the Todorov and Herzfeld models can likely simply be referenced in the text without a need for their full description in the Supplemental material - as their implementations appear to this reviewer as consistent with those presented in the respective papers. Beyond the Supplementary Tables, my feeling is that nearly all of the content in Supplemental can either be simply cited (e.g. alternative model implementations) or directly incorporated into the main manuscript without compromising the readability of the manuscript.

      We reorganized the manuscript and SI Appendix substantially, moving content to the Results or other main text section. The changes included those recommended by the reviewer:

      • We moved the equations describing step length asymmetry, perturbation, and Δ motor output (originally numbered Eq. 9-11) to the Results section (Experiment 1, “Motor paradigm and hypothesis”, lines 131-133, now numbered Eq. 1-3).

      • We moved Supplementary Methods to the main Methods section

      • We moved the most relevant content of the Supplementary Discussion to the main Discussion, and removed the less relevant content altogether.

      • We moved the methods describing walking-adaptation specific implementation of the Todorov and Herzfeld models to the main Methods section and removed the portions that were identical to the original implementation.

      • We moved the control experiments to the main text (main Results and Methods sections).

      • We removed the SI Appendix section “Experiment 1 mechanisms characteristics”

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this work, Rossi et al. use a novel split-belt treadmill learning task to reveal distinct sub-components of gait adaptation. The task involved following a standard adaptation phase with a "ramp-down" phase that helped them dissociate implicit recalibration and more deliberate SR map learning. Combined with modeling and re-analysis of previous studies, the authors show multiple lines of evidence that both processes run simultaneously, with implicit learning saturating based on intrinsic learning constraints and SR learning showing sensitivity to a "perceptual" error. These results offer a parallel with work in reaching adaptation showing both explicit and implicit processes contributing to behavior; however, in the case of gait adaptation the deliberate learning component does not appear to be strategic but is instead a more implicit SR learning processes.

      Strengths:

      (1) The task design is very clever and the "ramp down" phase offers a novel way to attempt to dissociate competing models of multiple processes in gait adaptation.

      (2) The analyses are thorough, as is the re-analysis of multiple previous data sets.

      (3) The querying of perception of the different relative belt speeds is a very nice addition, allowing the authors to connect different learning components with error perception.

      (4) The conceptual framework is compelling, highlighting parallels with work in reaching but also emphasizing differences, especially w/r/t SR learning versus strategic behaviors. Thus the discovery of an SR learning process in gait adaptation would be both novel and also help conjoin different siloed subfields of motor learning research.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The behavior in the ramp-down phase does indeed appear to support multiple learning processes. However, I may have missed something, but I have a fundamental worry about the specific modeling and framing of the "SR" learning process. If I correctly understand, the SR process learns by adjusting to perceived L/R belt speed differences (Figure 7). What is bugging me is why that process would not cause the SR system to still learn something in the later parts of the ramp-down phase when the perceived speed differences flip (Figure 4). I do believe this "blunted learning" is what the SR component is actually modeled with, given this quote in the caption to Figure 7: "When the perturbation is perceived to be opposite than adaptation, even if it is not, mapping is zero and the Δ motor output is constant, reflecting recalibration adjustments only." It seems a priori odd and perhaps a little arbitrary to me that a SR learning system would just stop working (go to zero) just because the perception flipped sign. Or for that matter "generalize" to a ramp-up (i.e., just learn a new SR mapping just like the system did at the beginning of the first perturbation). What am I missing that justifies this key assumption? Or is the model doing something else? (if so that should be more clearly described).

      We concur that this point was confusing, and we performed additional analyses and revised the text to improve clarity. Specifically, we clarify that the stimulus-response mapping does indeed still learn in the second portion of the Ramp Down, when the perceived speed differences flip. However, learning by the mapping mechanism proceeds slowly – at a rate comparable to that of forward model recalibration, taking several minutes. The duration of the task is relatively short, so that learning by the mapping mechanism is limited. We schematize the learning to be zero as an approximation. We have now included an additional modelling analysis (as part of our expanded perceptual modelling analyses), which shows there is no significant improvement in modelling performance when accounting for forgetting of recalibration or learning in the opposite direction by mapping in the second half of the ramp down, supporting this approximation. We explain this and other revisions in detail below.

      We include a Discussion section “Stimulus-response mapping is flexible but requires learning” where we improve our explanation of the operation of the mapping mechanism in the Ramp Down by leveraging the framework proposed by Iturralde and Torres-Oviedo, 2019. The section first explains that mapping operates relative to a new equilibrium corresponding to the current forward model calibration (lines 595-603):

      “The mapping mechanism observed in our study aligns with the corrective responses described by Iturralde and Torres-Oviedo, which operate relative to a recalibrated "new normal" rather than relying solely on environmental cues (Iturralde and Torres-Oviedo, 2019). Accordingly, our findings suggest a tandem architecture: forward model recalibration adjusts the nervous system's "normal state," while stimulus-response mapping computes motor adjustments relative to this "new normal." This architecture explains the sharp transition from flexible to rigid motor adjustments observed in our Ramp Down task. The transition occurs at the configuration perceived as "equal speeds" (~0.5 m/s speed difference) because this corresponds to the recalibrated “new normal”.”

      The following paragraph (lines 604-611) explain how this concept reflects in the first half of the Ramp Down:

      “In the first half of the Ramp Down, participants adequately modulated their walking pattern to accommodate the gradually diminishing perturbation, achieving symmetric step lengths. Due to the recalibrated “new normal”, perturbations within this range are perceived as congruent with the direction of adaptation but reduced in magnitude. This allows the mapping mechanism to flexibly modulate the walking pattern by using motor adjustments previously learned during adaptation. Importantly, the rapid duration of the Ramp Down task rules out the possibility that the observed modulation may instead reflect washout, as confirmed by the fact the aftereffects measured post-Ramp-Down were comparable to previous work (Kambic et al., 2023; Reisman et al., 2005).”

      The last paragraph (lines 612–622) explain the second half of the Ramp Down in light of the equilibrium concept and of the slow learning rate of mapping:

      “In the second half of the Ramp Down, aftereffects emerged as participants failed to accommodate perturbations smaller than the recalibrated “new normal”. These perturbations were perceived as opposite to the adaptation perturbation and, therefore, novel. Accordingly, the mapping mechanism responded as it would to a newly introduced perturbation, rather than leveraging previously learned adjustments (Iturralde and TorresOviedo, 2019). Due to the rapid nature of the Ramp Down, the mapping mechanism lacked sufficient time to learn the novel motor adjustments required for these perturbations – a process that typically takes several minutes, as shown by our baseline ramp tasks and control experiments. As mapping-related learning was negligible, the rigid recalibration adjustments dominated during this phase. Consequently, the walking pattern did not change to accommodate the gradually diminishing perturbation, leading to the emergence of aftereffects.”

      We also revised the Discussion section “Mapping operates as memory-based in some people, structure-based in others”, to clarify the processes of interpolation and extrapolation (lines 689-700). This revision helps explain why mapping may generalize to a ramp-up faster than learning a perturbation perceived in the opposite direction (when considered together with the explanation that mapping operates relative to the new recalibrated equilibrium) In the former case (generalize to a ramp-up), a structure-based mapping can use the extrapolation computation: it leverages previous knowledge of which gait parameters should be modified and how – e.g., modulating the positioning our right foot to be more forward on the treadmill – but must extrapolate the specific parameter values – e.g., how more far forward. In the latter case (learning a perturbation perceived in the opposite direction), even a structure-based mapping would need to figure out what gait parameters to change completely anew – e.g., modulating the positioning of the foot in the opposite way, to be less forward, requires a different set of control policies.

      We mentioned above that this illustration of the mapping mechanism relies on the assumption that the additional learning of the mapping mechanism in the second half of the Ramp Down is negligible. As part of our revisions for the “Modelling analysis for perceptual realignment”, we developed a new model – the perceptuomotor recalibration + mapping model (PM-ReMap) that extends the recalibration + mapping model by accounting for the possibility that Δ motor output is not constant in the second half of the Ramp Down (main points are at lines 355-275, and Figure 5; see response to Reviewer #1 (Public review), Comment 4, for a detailed explanation). We find that performance of the PM-ReMap model does not exceed that of the simpler recalibration + mapping model, suggesting that the Δ motor output does not change substantially in the second half of the Ramp Down. Note that, if the Δ motor output decayed in this phase, it could be due to forgetting or unlearning of the recalibration mechanism, or also it could be due to the mapping mechanism learning in the opposite direction than it did in adaptation. In the Results section, we focused on describing recalibration forgetting/unlearning for simplicity. However, in the Discussion section “Mapping may underly savings upon re-exposure to the same or different perturbation”, we explain in detail how the motor aftereffects also depend on the mapping mechanism learning in the opposite direction, as corroborated by our Control experiments and previous work. Therefore, the finding that the PM-ReMap model performance does not exceed that of the simpler recalibration + mapping model suggest that both effects – recalibration forgetting/unlearning and opposite-direction-learning of mapping – are not significant, nor is their combined effect on the Δ motor output.

      (2) A more minor point, but given the sample size it is hard to be convinced about the individual difference analysis for structure learning (Figure 5). How clear is it that these two groups of subjects are fully separable and not on a continuum? The lack of clusters in another data set seems like a somewhat less than convincing control here.

      We performed an additional analysis – a silhouette analysis – to confirm the presence of these clusters in our data (Methods, lines 1070-1072). The results, reported in Experiment 2 Results, lines 487-490, confirmed that there is strong evidence for the presence of these clusters:

      “A silhouette analysis confirmed strong evidence for these clusters: the average silhouette score was 0.90, with 19 of 20 participants scoring above 0.7 – considered strong evidence – and one scoring between 0.5 and 0.7 – considered reasonable evidence (Dalmaijer et al., 2022; Kaufman and Rousseeuw, 1990; Rousseeuw, 1987).”

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) I think there is far too much content pushed into the supplement. The other models and full model comparison should be in the main text, as should the re-analysis of previous data sets. Also, key discussion points should not be in the supplement either.

      We reorganized the manuscript and SI Appendix substantially, including the changes recommended by the reviewer. Please refer to our response to “Reviewer #2 - Recommendations for the authors” for a detailed explanation.

      (2) Line 649: in reaching the calibration system does respond to different error sizes; why not here?

      We apologize for the confusion. Similar to reaching adaptation, the recalibration in walking adaptation also scales based on the error size experienced in adaptation. What we meant to convey is that, once a calibration has been acquired in adaptation, the recalibration process is rigid in that it can only change gradually. So if we jump the perturbation to a different value, the original calibration is transiently used until the system has the time to recalibrate again. For example, if we jump abruptly from the adaptation perturbation to a perturbation of zero in postadaptation, the adaptation calibration persists resulting in aftereffects.

      We revised the manuscript to clarity these points. First, we explicitly report that forward model recalibration scales based on the error size experienced in adaptation:

      “We next compared Medium Descend and Small Abrupt (1m/s or 0.4m/s perturbation), and found that recalibration contributed significantly more for the smaller perturbation (larger compensation<sub>perceptual</sub> / compensation<sub>motor-total</sub> in Small Abrupt than Medium Descend, Fig. 8A middle and Table S6).” (Control experiments Results, lines 422-425)

      “the mapping described here shares some characteristics with explicit mechanisms, such as flexibility and modulation by error size” (Discussion, lines 630-631)

      Additionally, we leverage the framework proposed by Tsay et al., 2024, to improve our explanation of the characteristics of the different learning mechanisms. Please refer to our response to “Reviewer #1 (Public review)”, Comment (1).

      (3) It would be nice to see bar graphs showing model comparison results for each individual subject in the main text, and to see how many subjects are best fit by the SR+calibration model.

      We included the recommended bar graphs to Figure 3 and Figure 5.

      (4) Why exactly does the "perturbation" in Figure 3 have error bars?

      In walking adaptation, the perturbation that participants experienced is closely dictated by the treadmill belt speeds, but not exactly, because participants are free to move their feet as they like, so that their ankle movement may not always match the treadmill belts exactly. Therefore, we record the perturbation that is actually experienced by each participant’s feet using markers. We then display the mean and standard error of this perturbation.

      We moved the equation describing the perturbation measure from the Methods to the Experiment 1 Results (lines 131-133, Eq. 1-3). We believe this change will help the reader understand the measures depicted.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This valuable work provides a near-complete description of the mechanosensory bristles on the Drosophila melanogaster head and the anatomy and projection patterns of the bristle mechanosensory neurons that innervate them. The data presented are solid. The study has generated numerous invaluable resources for the community that will be of interest to neuroscientists in the field of circuits and behaviour, particularly those interested in mechanosensation and behavioural sequence generation.

      We express our gratitude to the Reviewers for their valuable suggestions, which significantly enhanced the manuscript. The revisions were undertaken, not with the expectation of acceptance, but rather driven by our sincere belief that these revisions would enhance the manuscript's impact for future readers.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Sensory neurons of the mechanosensory bristles on the head of the fly project to the sub esophageal ganglion (SEZ). In this manuscript, the authors have built on a large body of previous work to comprehensively classify and quantify the head bristles. They broadly identify the nerves that various bristles use to project to the SEZ and describe their region-specific innervation in the SEZ. They use dye-fills, clonal labelling, and electron microscopic reconstructions to describe in detail the phenomenon of somatotopy - conserved peripheral representations within the central brain - within the innervation of these neurons. In the process they develop novel tools to access subsets of these neurons. They use these to demostrate that groups of bristles in different parts of the head control different aspects of the grooming sequence.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The authors combine genetic tools, dye fills and connectome analysis techniques to generate a "first-of-its-kind", near complete, synaptic resolution map of the head bristle neurons of Drosophila. While some of the BMN anatomy was already known based on previous work by the authors and other researchers, this is the first time a near complete map has been created for the head BMNs at electron microscopy resolution.

      Strengths:

      (1) The authors cleverly use techniques that allow moving back and forth between periphery (head bristle location) and brain, as well as moving between light microscopy and electron microscopy data. This allows them to first characterize the pathways taken by different head BMNs to project to the brain and also characterize anatomical differences among individual neurons at the level of morphology and connectivity.

      (2) The work is very comprehensive and results in a near complete map of all I’m head BMNs.

      (3) Authors also complement this anatomical characterization with a first-level functional analysis using optogenetic activation of BMNs that results in expected directed grooming behavior.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The clustering analysis is compelling but cluster numbers seem to be arbitrarily chosen instead of by using some informed metrics.

      We made revisions to the manuscript that address this concern. Please see our response to “recommendations for authors” for a description of these revisions.

      (2) It could help provide context if authors revealed some of the important downstream pathways that could explain optogenetics behavioral phenotypes and previously shown hierarchical organization of grooming sequences.

      We made revisions to the manuscript that address this recommendation. Please see our response to “recommendations for authors” for a description of these revisions.

      (3) In contrast to the rigorous quantitative analysis of the anatomical data, the behavioral data is analyzed using much more subjective methods. While I do not think it is necessary to perform a rigorous analysis of behaviors in this anatomy focused manuscript, the conclusions based on behavioral analysis should be treated as speculative in the current form e.g. calling "nodding + backward walking" as an avoidance response is not justified as it currently stands. Strong optogenetic activation could lead to sudden postural changes that due to purely biomechanical constraints could lead to a couple of backward steps as seen in the example videos. Moreover since the quantification is manual, it is not clear what the analyst interprets as backward walking or nodding. Interpretation is also concerning because controls show backward walking (although in fewer instances based on subjective quantification).

      While unbiased machine vision-based methods would nicely complement the present work, this type of analysis is not yet working to distinguish between different head grooming movements. Therefore, we are currently limited to manual annotation for our behavioral analysis. That said, we do not believe that our manual annotation is subjective. The grooming movements that we examine in this work are distinguishable from each other through frame-by-frame manual annotation of video at 30 fps. Our annotation of the grooming and backward motions performed by flies are based on previous publications that established a controlled vocabulary defining each movement (Hampel et al., 2020a, 2017, 2015; Seeds et al., 2014). In this work, we added head nodding to this controlled vocabulary that is described in the Materials and methods. We have added additional text to the third paragraph of the Material and methods section entitled “Behavioral analysis procedures” that we hope better describes our behavioral analysis. This description now reads:

      Head nodding was annotated when the fly tilted its head downward by any amount until it returned its head back in its original position. This movement often occurred in repeated cycles. Therefore, the “start” was scored at the onset of the first forward movement and the “stop” when the head returned to its original position on the last nod.

      We do not make any firm conclusions about the head movements (nodding) and backwards motions. We refer to nodding as a descriptive term that would allow the reader to better understand what the behavior looks like. We make no firm conclusions about any behavioral functional role that either the nodding or the backward motions might have, with the exception of nodding in the context of grooming. We only suggest that the behaviors appear to be avoidance responses. Furthermore, backward walking was not mentioned. Instead we refer to backward motions. We are only reporting our annotations of these movements that do occur, and are significantly different from controls. We speculate that these could be avoidance responses based on support from the literature. Future studies will be required to understand whether these movements serve real behavioral roles.

      Summary:

      The authors end up generating a near-complete map of head BMNs that will serve as a long-standing resource to the Drosophila research community. This will directly shape future experiments aimed at modeling or functionally analyzing the head grooming circuit to understand how somatotopy guides behaviors.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Eichler et al. set out to map the locations of the mechanosensory bristles on the fly head, examine the axonal morphology of the bristle mechanosensory neurons (BMNs) that innervate them, and match these to electron microscopy reconstructions of the same BMNs in a previously published EM volume of the female adult fly brain. They used BMN synaptic connectivity information to create clusters of BMNs that they show occupy different regions of the subesophageal zone brain region and use optogenetic activation of subsets of BMNs to support the claim that the morphological projections and connectivity of defined groups of BMNs are consistent with the parallel model for behavioral sequence generation.

      The authors have beautifully cataloged the mechanosensory bristles and the projection paths and patterns of the corresponding BMN axons in the brain using detailed and painstaking methods. The result is a neuroanatomy resource that will be an important community resource. To match BMNs reconstructed in an electron microscopy volume of the adult fly brain, the authors matched clustered reconstructed BMNs with light-level BMN classes using a variety of methods, but evidence for matching is only summarized and not demonstrated in a way that allows the reader to evaluate the strength of the evidence. The authors then switch from morphology-based categorization to non-BMN connectivity as a clustering method, which they claim demonstrates that BMNs form a somatotopic map in the brain. This map is not easily appreciated, and although contralateral projections in some populations are clear, the distinct projection zones that are mentioned by the authors are not readily apparent. Because of the extensive morphological overlap between connectivity-based clusters, it is not clear that small projection differences at the projection level are what determines the post-synaptic connectivity of a given BMN cluster or their functional role during behavior. The claim the somatotopic organization of BMN projections is preserved among their postsynaptic partners to form parallel sensory pathways is not supported by the result that different connectivity clusters still have high cosine similarity in a number of cases (i.e. Clusters 1 and 3, or Clusters 1 and 2). Finally, the authors use tools that were generated during the light-level characterization of BMN projections to show that specifically activating BMNs that innervate different areas of the head triggers different grooming behaviors. In one case, activation of a single population of sensory bristles (lnOm) triggers two different behaviors, both eye and dorsal head grooming. This result does not seem consistent with the parallel model, which suggests that these behaviors should be mutually exclusive and rely on parallel downstream circuitry.

      We made revisions to the manuscript that address this recommendation. Please see our response to “recommendations for authors” for a description of these revisions.

      This work will have a positive impact on the field by contributing a complete accounting of the mechanosensory bristles of the fruit fly head, describing the brain projection patterns of the BMNs that innervate them, and linking them to BMN sensory projections in an electron microscopy volume of the adult fly brain. It will also have a positive impact on the field by providing genetic tools to help functionally subdivide the contributions of different BMN populations to circuit computations and behavior. This contribution will pave the way for further mechanistic study of central circuits that subserve grooming circuits.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      All three reviewers appreciated the work presented in this manuscript. There were also a few overlapping concerns that were raised that are summarised below, should the authors wish to address them:

      Somatotopy: We recommend that the authors describe the extent of prior knowledge in more detail to highlight their contribution better.

      We made revisions that better highlight the extent of prior knowledge about somatotopy. We describe how previous studies showed bristle mechanosensory neurons in insects are somatotopically organized, but these studies were not comprehensive descriptions of complete somatotopic maps for the head or body. To our knowledge, our study provides the first comprehensive and synaptic resolution somatotopic map of a head for any animal. This sets the stage for the complete definition of the interface between somatotopically-organized mechanosensory neurons and postsynaptic circuits, which has broad implications for future studies on aimed grooming, and mechanosensation in general. Below we itemize revisions to the Introduction, Discussion, and Figures to provide a clearer statement of the significance of our study as it relates to somatotopy.

      (1) Newly added Figure 1 – figure supplement 1 more explicitly grounds the study in somatotopy, providing a working model of the organization of the circuit pathways that produce the grooming sequence. This model features somatotopy as shown in Figure 1 – figure supplement 1C.

      (2) Figure 1 – figure supplement 1 is incorporated into the Introduction in the second, third, and fourth paragraphs, the first paragraph of the Results section titled “Somatotopically-organized parallel BMN pathways”, and the second and third paragraphs of the last Discussion section titled “Parallel circuit architecture underlying the grooming sequence”.

      (3) We added text to the end of the fourth paragraph of the Introduction that now reads: “In this model, parallel-projecting mechanosensory neurons that respond to stimuli at specific locations on the head or body could connect with somatotopically-organized parallel circuits that elicit grooming of those locations (Figure 1 – figure supplement 1A-C). The previous discovery of a mechanosensory-connected circuit that elicits aimed grooming of the antennae provides evidence of this organization (Hampel 2015). However, the extent to which distinct circuits elicit grooming of other locations is unknown, in part, because the somatotopic projections of the mechanosensory neurons have not been comprehensively defined for the head or body.”

      (4) There is a Discussion section that further explains the extent of prior knowledge and our contributions on somatotopy that is titled “A synaptic resolution somatotopic map of the head BMNs”. Additionally, the previous version of this section had a paragraph on the broader implications of our work as it relates to somatotopy across species. In light of the reviewer comments, we decided to make this paragraph into its own Discussion section to better highlight the broader significance of our work. This section is titled “First synaptic resolution somatotopic map of the head”.

      The somatotopy isn't overtly obvious - perhaps they could try mapping presynaptic sites and provide landmarks to improve visualisation.

      We made the following revisions to better highlight the head BMN somatotopy. One point of confusion from the previous manuscript version stemmed from us not explicitly defining the somatotopic organization that we observed. There seemed to be confusion that we were defining the head somatotopy based only on the small projection differences among BMNs from neighboring head locations. While we believe that these small differences indeed correspond to somatotopy, we failed to highlight that there are overt differences in the brain projections of BMNs from distant locations on the head. For example, Figure 5B (right panel) shows the distinct projections between the LabNv (brown) and AntNv (blue) BMNs that innervate bristles on the ventral and dorsal head, respectively. Thus, BMN types innervating neighboring bristles show overlapping projections with small projection differences, whereas those innervating distant bristles show non overlapping projections into distinct zones.

      Our analysis of postsynaptic connectivity similarity also shows somatotopic organization among the BMN postsynaptic partners, as BMN types innervating the same or neighboring bristle populations show high connectivity similarity (Figure 8, old Figure 7). Below we highlight major revisions to the text and Figures that hopefully better reveal the head somatotopy.

      (1) In the last paragraph of the Introduction we added text that explicitly frames the experiments in terms of somatotopic organization: “This reveals somatotopic organization, where BMNs innervating neighboring bristles project to the same zones in the CNS while those innervating distant bristles project to distinct zones. Analysis of the BMN postsynaptic connectome reveals that neighboring BMNs show higher connectivity similarity than distant BMNs, providing evidence of somatotopically organized postsynaptic circuit pathways.”

      (2) We mention an example of overt somatotopy from Figure 5 in the Results section titled “EM-based reconstruction of the head BMN projections in a full adult brain”. The text reads “For example, BMNs from the Eye- and LabNv have distinct ventral and anterior projections, respectively. This shows how the BMNs are somatotopically organized, as their distinct projections correspond to different bristle locations on the head (Figure 5B,C).”

      (3) In new Figure 8 (part of old Figure 7), we modified panels that correspond to the cosine similarity analysis of postsynaptic connectivity. The major revision was to plot the cosine similarity clusters onto the head bristles so that the bristles are now colored based on their clusters (C). This shows how neighboring BMNs cluster together, and therefore show similar postsynaptic connectivity. We believe that this provides a nice visualization of somatotopic organization in BMN postsynaptic connectivity. We also added the clustering dendrogram as recommended by Reviewer #2 (Figure 8A).

      (4) In new Figure 8, we added new panels (D-F) that summarize our anatomical and connectomic analysis showing different somatotopic features of the head BMNs. Different BMN types innervate bristles at neighboring and distant proximities (D). BMNs that innervate neighboring bristles project into overlapping zones (E, example of reconstructed BM-Fr and -Ant neurons with non-overlapping BM-MaPa neurons) and show postsynaptic connectivity similarity (F, example connectivity map of three BM types on cosine similarity data).

      (5) To accompany the new Figure 8D-F panels, we added a paragraph to summarize the different somatotopic features of the head BMNs that were identified based on our anatomical and connectomic analysis. This is the last paragraph in the Results section titled “Somatotopically-organized parallel BMN pathways”:

      Our results reveal head bristle proximity-based organization among the BMN projections and their postsynaptic partners to form parallel mechanosensory pathways. BMNs innervating neighboring bristles project into overlapping zones in the SEZ, whereas those innervating distant bristles project to distinct zones (example of BM-Fr, -Ant, and -MaPa neurons shown in Figure 8D,E). Cosine similarity analysis of BMN postsynaptic connectivity revealed that BMNs innervating the same bristle populations (same types) have the highest connectivity similarity. Figure 8F shows example parallel connections for BM-Fr, -Ant, and -MaPa neurons (vertical arrows), where the edge width indicates the number of synapses from each BMN type to their major postsynaptic partners. Additionally, BMNs innervating neighboring bristle populations showed postsynaptic connectivity similarity, while BMNs innervating distant bristles show little or none. For example, BM-Fr and -Ant neurons have connections to common postsynaptic partners, whereas BM-MaPa neurons show only weak connections with the main postsynaptic partners of BM-Fr or -Ant neurons (Figure 8F, connections under 5% of total BMN output omitted). These results suggest that BMN somatotopy could have different possible levels of head spatial resolution, from specific bristle populations (e.g. Ant bristles), to general head areas (e.g. dorsal head bristles).

      We also refer to Figure 8D-F to illustrate the different somatotopic features in the Discussion. These references can be found in the following Discussion sections titled “A synaptic resolution somatotopic map of the head BMNs (fourth paragraph)”, and “Parallel circuit architecture underlying the grooming sequence (second paragraph)”.

      (6) In addition to improving the Figures, we provide additional tools that enable readers to explore the BMN somatotopy in a more interactive way. That is, we provide 5 different FlyWire.ai links in the manuscript Results section that enable 3D visualization of the different reconstructed BMNs (e.g. FlyWire.ai link 1).

      Note: In working on old Figure 7 to address this Reviewer suggestion, we also reordered panels A-E. We believe that this was a more logical ordering than in the previous draft. These panels are now the only data shown in Figure 7, as the cosine similarity analysis is now in Figure 8. We hope that splitting these panels into two Figures will improve manuscript readability.

      Light EM Mapping: A better description of methods by which this mapping was done would be helpful. Perhaps the authors could provide a few example parallel representations of the EM and light images in the main figure would help the reader better appreciate the strength of their approach.

      We have done as the Reviewers suggested and added panels to Figure 6 that show examples of the LM and EM image matching (Figure 6A,B). We added two examples that used different methods for labeling the LM imaged BMNs, including MCFO labeling of an individual BM-InOc neuron and driver line labeling of a major portion of BM-InOm neurons using InOmBMN-LexA. These panels are referred to in the first paragraph of the Results section titled “Matching the reconstructed head BMNs with their bristles”. Note that examples for all LM/EM matched BMN types are shown in Figure 6 – figure supplement 2.

      We had provided Figure 6 – figure supplement 2 in the reviewed manuscript that shows all the above requested “parallel representations of the EM and light images”. However, the Reviewer critiques made us realize that the purpose of this figure supplement was not clearly indicated. Therefore, we have revised Figure 6 – figure supplement 2 and its legend to make its purpose clearer. First, we changed the legend title to better highlight its purpose. The legend is now titled: “Matching EM reconstructed BMN projections with light microscopy (LM) imaged BMNs that innervate specific bristles”. Second, we added label designations to the figure panel rows that highlight the LM and EM comparisons. That is, the rows for light microscopy images of BMNs are indicated with LM and the rows for EM reconstructed BMN images are labeled with EM. Reviewer #3 had indicated that it was not clear what labeling methods were used to visualize the LM imaged BM-InOm neurons in Figure 6 – figure supplement 2N. Therefore, we added text to the figure and the legend to better highlight the different methods used. Panels A and B were also cropped to accommodate the above mentioned revisions.

      The manuscript also provides an extensive Materials and methods section that describes the different lines of evidence that were used to assign the reconstructed BMNs as specific types. We changed the title to better highlight the purpose of this methods section to “Matching EM reconstructed BMN projections with light microscopy imaged BMNs that innervate specific bristles”. The evidence used to support the assignment of the different BMN types is also summarized in Figure 6 – figure supplement 3.

      Parallel circuit model: The authors motivate their study with this. We're recommending that they define expectations of such circuitry, its alternatives (including implications for downstream pathways), and behavior before they present their results. We're also recommending that they interpret their behavioural results in the context of these circuits.

      Our primary motivation for doing the experiments described in this manuscript was to help define the neural circuit architecture underlying the parallel model that drives the Drosophila grooming sequence. This manuscript provides a comprehensive assessment of the first layer of this circuit architecture. A byproduct of this work is a contribution that offers immediate utility and significance to the Drosophila connectomics community. Namely, the description of the majority of mechanosensory neurons on the head, with their annotation in the recently released whole brain connectome dataset (FlyWire.ai). In writing this manuscript, we tried to balance both of these things, which was difficult to write. We very much appreciate the Reviewers' comments that have highlighted points of confusion in our original draft. We hope that the revised draft is now clearer and more logically presented. We have made revisions to the text and provided a new figure supplement (Figure 1 - figure supplement 1) and new panels in Figure 8. Below we highlight the major revisions.

      (1) The Introduction was revised to more explicitly ground the study in the parallel model, while also removing details that were not pertinent to the experiments presented in the manuscript.

      The first paragraph introduces different features of the parallel model. To better focus the reader on the parts of the model that were being assessed in the manuscript, we removed the following sentences: “Performance order is established by an activity gradient among parallel circuits where earlier actions have the highest activity and later actions have the lowest. A winner-take-all network selects the action with the highest activity and suppresses the others. The selected action is performed and then terminated to allow a new round of competition and selection of the next action.” Note that these sentences are included in the third and fourth paragraphs of the last Discussion section titled “Parallel circuit architecture underlying the grooming sequence”.

      The first paragraph of the Introduction now introduces a bigger picture view of the model that emphasizes the two main features: 1) a parallel circuit architecture that ensures all mutually exclusive actions to be performed in sequence are simultaneously readied and competing for output, and 2) hierarchical suppression among the parallel circuits, where earlier actions suppress later actions.

      (2) Newly added Figure 1 – figure supplement 1 provides a working model of grooming (Reviewer # 1 suggestion). We now more strongly emphasize that the study aimed to define the parallel neural circuit architecture underlying the grooming sequence, focusing on the mechanosensory layer of this architecture. In particular, we refer to the new Figure 1 – figure supplement 1 that has been added to better convey the hypothesized grooming neural circuit architecture. Figure 1 – figure supplement 1 is incorporated into the Introduction (paragraphs two, three, and four), Results section titled “Somatotopically-organized parallel BMN pathways (first paragraph)”, and last Discussion section titled “Parallel circuit architecture underlying the grooming sequence (second and third paragraphs)”.

      (3) New panels in Figure 8 update the model of parallel circuit organization as it relates to somatotopy (D-F). These panels show the parallel circuits hypothesized by the model, but also indicate convergence, with different possible levels of head resolution for these circuits. We describe above where these panels are referenced in the text.

      (4) We added a new paragraph in the last Discussion section titled “Parallel circuit architecture underlying the grooming sequence” that better incorporates the results from this manuscript into the working model of grooming. This paragraph is shown below.

      Here we define the parallel architecture of BMN types that elicit the head grooming sequence that starts with the eyes and proceeds to other locations, such as the antennae and ventral head. The different BMN types are hypothesized to connect with parallel circuits that elicit grooming of specific locations (described above and shown in Figure 1 – figure supplement 1A,C). Indeed, we identify distinct projections and connectivity among BMNs innervating distant bristles on the head, providing evidence supporting this parallel architecture (Figure 8D-F). However, we also find partially overlapping projections and connectivity among BMNs innervating neighboring bristles. Further, optogenetic activation of BMNs at specific head locations elicits grooming of both those locations and neighboring locations (Figure 9). These findings raise questions about the resolution of the parallel architecture underlying grooming. Are BMN types connected with distinct postsynaptic circuits that elicit aimed grooming of their corresponding bristle populations (e.g. Ant bristles)? Or are neighboring BMN types that innervate bristles in particular head areas connected with circuits that elicit grooming of those areas (e.g. dorsal or ventral head)? Future studies of the BMN postsynaptic circuits will be required to define the resolution of the parallel pathways that elicit aimed grooming.

      Aside from this summary of major concerns, the detailed recommendations are attached below.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I appreciate the quality and exhaustive body of work presented in this manuscript. I have a few comments that the authors may want to consider:

      (1) The authors motivate this study by posing that it would allow them to uncover whether the complex grooming behaviour of flies followed a parallel model of circuit function. It would have been nice to have been introduced to what the alternative model might be and what each would mean for organisation of the circuit architecture. Some guiding schematics would go a long way in illustrating this point. Modifying the discussion along these lines would also be helpful.

      We made several revisions to the manuscript that address this recommendation. Among these revisions, we added Figure 1 – figure supplement 1 that includes a working model for grooming. Please see above for a description of these revisions.

      (2) The authors mention the body of work that has mapped head bristles and described somatotopy. It would be useful to discuss in more detail what these studies have shown and highlight where the gaps are that their study fills.

      We made several revisions to the manuscript that address this recommendation. Please see above for a description of these revisions.

      (3) The dye-fills and reconstructions that are single colour could use a boundary to demarcate the SEZ. This would help in orienting the reader.

      We agree with Reviewer #1 that Figure 4 and its supplements could use some indicator that would orient the reader with respect to the dye filled or stochastically labeled neurons. The images are of the entire SEZ in the ventral brain, and in the case of some panels, the background staining enables visualization of the brain (e.g. Figure 4H,M,N. To help orient the reader in this region, we added a dotted line to indicate the approximate SEZ midline. This also enables the reader to more clearly see which of the BMN types cross the midline.

      Midline visual guides were added for Figure 4, Figure 4 – figure supplement 2, Figure 4 – figure supplement 3, Figure 4 – figure supplement 4, Figure 4 – figure supplement 5, Figure 4 – figure supplement 6, Figure 4 – figure supplement 7, Figure 4 – figure supplement 8, Figure 6 – figure supplement 2.

      (4) The comparison between the EM and the fills/clones are not obvious. And particularly because they are not directly determined, it would be nice to have the EM reconstruction alongside the dye-fills. This would work very nicely in the supplementary figure with the multiple fills of the same bristles. I think this would really drive home the point.

      We made several revisions to the manuscript that address this recommendation. Please see above for a description of these revisions.

      (5) Are there unnoticed black error-bars floating around in many of the gray-scale images?

      The black bars were masking white scale bars in the images. We have removed the black bars and remade the images without scale bars. This was done for the following Figures: Figure 4, Figure 4 – figure supplement 2, Figure 4 – figure supplement 3, Figure 4 – figure supplement 4, Figure 4 – figure supplement 5, Figure 4 – figure supplement 6, Figure 4 – figure supplement 7, Figure 4 – figure supplement 8, Figure 6 – figure supplement 2.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) The only point in the paper I found myself going back and forth between methods/supp and text was when authors discuss about the clustering. I think it would help the reader if a few sentences about cosine clustering used for connectivity based clustering were included in the main text. Also, for NBLAST hierarchical clustering, it would help if some informed metrics could be used for defining cluster numbers (e.g. Braun et al, 2010 PLOS ONE shows how Ward linkage cost could be used for hierarchical clustering).

      Depending on where the cut height is placed on the dendrogram for cosine similarity of BMNs, different features of the BMN type postsynaptic connectivity are captured. As the number of clusters is increased (lower cut height), clustering is mainly among BMNs of the same type, showing that these BMNs have the highest connectivity similarity. As the number of clusters is reduced (higher cut height), BMNs innervating neighboring bristles on the head are clustered, revealing three general clusters corresponding to the dorsal, ventral, and posterior head. This reveals somatotopy based clustering among same and neighboring BMN types. The cut height shown in Figure 8 and Figure 8 – figure supplement 2 was chosen because it highlighted both of these features.

      The NBLAST clustering shows similar results to the connectivity based clustering with respect to neighboring and distant BMN types. As the number of clusters increases BMNs of the same type are clustered, and these types can be further subdivided into morphologically distinct subtypes. As the number of clusters is reduced, the clustering captures neighboring BMNs. Thus, neighboring BMN types showed high morphology similarity (and proximity) with each other, and low similarity with distant BMN types.

      Please see our responses to a Reviewer #3 critique below for further description of the clustering results.

      On the same lines it would help if the clustering dendrograms were included in the main figure.

      We thank Reviewer #2 for this comment. We have added the dendrogram to Figure 8A, a change that we feel makes this Figure much easier to understand.

      (2) It could help provide intuition if the authors revealed some of the downstream targets and their implication in explaining the behavioral phenotypes.

      While this will be the subject of at least two forthcoming manuscripts, we have added text to the present manuscript that provides insight into BMN postsynaptic targets. Our previous work (Hampel et al. 2015) described a mechanosensory connected neural circuit that elicits grooming of the antennae. While this previous study demonstrated that the Johnston’s organ mechanosensory neurons are synaptically and functionally connected with this circuit, our preliminary analysis indicates that it is also connected with BM-Ant neurons. We hypothesize that there are additional such circuits that are responsible for eliciting grooming of other head locations.

      To better highlight potential downstream targets in the manuscript, we now mention the antennal circuit in the Introduction. This text reads: In this model, parallel-projecting mechanosensory neurons that respond to stimuli at specific locations on the head or body could connect with somatotopically-organized parallel circuits that elicit grooming of those locations (Figure 1 – figure supplement 1A-C). The previous discovery of a mechanosensory-connected circuit that elicits aimed grooming of the antennae provides evidence of this organization (Hampel 2015). However, the extent to which distinct circuits elicit grooming of other locations is unknown, in part, because the somatotopic projections of the mechanosensory neurons have not been comprehensively defined for the head or body.

      There is also text in the Discussion that addresses this Reviewer comment. It describes the antennal circuit and mentions the possibility that other similar circuits may exist. This can be found in the third paragraph of the section titled “Circuits that elicit aimed grooming of specific head locations”.

      (3) Authors find that opto activation of BMNs leads to grooming of targeted as well as neighboring areas. Is there any sequence observed here? i.e. first clean targeted area and then clean neighboring area? I wonder if the answer to this is something as simple as common post-synaptic targets which is essentially reducing the resolution of the BMN sensory map. Some more speculation on this interesting result could be helpful.

      We appreciate and agree with this point from Reviewer #2, and have tried to better emphasize the possible implications for grooming that the overlapping projections and connectivity among BMNs innervating neighboring bristles may have. This is now better addressed in the Results and Discussion sections. Below we highlight where this is addressed:

      (1) In the second paragraph of the Results section titled “Activation of subsets of head BMNs elicits aimed grooming of specific locations” we added text that suggests the possibility that grooming of the stimulated and neighboring locations could be due to the overlapping projections and connectivity. This text reads: This suggested that head BMNs elicit aimed grooming of their corresponding bristle locations, but also neighboring locations. This result is consistent with our anatomical and connectomic data indicating that BMNs innervating neighboring bristles show overlapping projections and postsynaptic connectivity similarity (see Discussion).

      (2) In the fourth paragraph of the Discussion section titled “A synaptic resolution somatotopic map of the head BMNs”, we added a sentence to the end of the fourth paragraph that alludes to further discussion of this topic. This sentence reads: This overlap may have implications for aimed grooming behavior. For example, neighboring BMNs could connect with common neural circuits to elicit grooming of overlapping locations (discussed more below).

      (3) In the fourth paragraph of the Discussion section titled “Circuits that elicit aimed grooming of specific head locations” there is a paragraph that mentions the possibility of mechanosensory convergence onto common postsynaptic circuits to promote grooming of the stimulated area, along with neighboring areas. This paragraph is below.

      We find that activation of specific BMN types elicits both aimed grooming of their corresponding bristle locations and neighboring locations. This suggests overlap in the locations that are groomed with the activation of different BMN types. Such overlap provides a means of cleaning the area surrounding the stimulus location. Interestingly, our NBLAST and cosine similarity analysis indicates that neighboring BMNs project into overlapping zones in the SEZ and show common postsynaptic connectivity. Thus, we hypothesize that neighboring BMNs connect with common neural circuits (e.g. antennal grooming circuit) to elicit overlapping aimed grooming of common head locations.

      (4) In the new second paragraph of the Discussion section titled “Parallel circuit architecture underlying the grooming sequence” we further discuss the issue of the BMN “sensory map. This paragraph is below.

      Here we define the parallel architecture of BMN types that elicit the head grooming sequence that starts with the eyes and proceeds to other locations, such as the antennae and ventral head. The different BMN types are hypothesized to connect with parallel circuits that elicit grooming of specific locations (described above and shown in Figure 1 – figure supplement 1A,C). Indeed, we identify distinct projections and connectivity among BMNs innervating distant bristles on the head, providing evidence supporting this parallel architecture (Figure 8D-F). However, we also find partially overlapping projections and connectivity among BMNs innervating neighboring bristles. Further, optogenetic activation of BMNs at specific head locations elicits grooming of both those locations and neighboring locations (Figure 9). These findings raise questions about the resolution of the parallel architecture underlying grooming. Are BMN types connected with distinct postsynaptic circuits that elicit aimed grooming of their corresponding bristle populations (e.g. Ant bristles)? Or are neighboring BMN types that innervate bristles in particular head areas connected with circuits that elicit grooming of those areas (e.g. dorsal or ventral head)? Future studies of the BMN postsynaptic circuits will be required to define the resolution of the parallel pathways that elicit aimed grooming.

      (4) If authors were to include a summary table that shows all known attributes about BMN type as columns that could be very useful as a resource to the community. Table columns could include attributes like "bristle name", "nerve tract", "FlyWire IDs of all segments corresponding to the bristle class". "split-Gal4 line or known enhancer" , etc.

      We provided a table that includes much of this information after the manuscript had already gone out for review. We regret that this was not available. This is now provided as Supplementary file 3. This table provides the following information for each reconstructed BMN: BMN name, bristle type, nerve, flywire ID, flywire coordinates, NBLAST cluster (cut height 1), NBLAST cluster (cut height 5), and cosine cluster (cut height 4.5). Note that the driver line enhancers for targeting specific BMN types are shown in Figure 3I.

      Specific Points:

      Figure 4C-V:

      • I find it a bit difficult to distinguish ipsi- from contra-lateral projections. Maybe indicate the midline as a thin, stippled line?

      We thank the Reviewer #2 for this suggestion. We have now added lines in the panels in Figure 4C-V to indicate the approximate location of the midline. We also added lines to the Figure 4 – figure supplements as described above.

      I think this Fig reference is wrong "the red-light stimulus also elicited backward motions with control flies (Figure 6B,C, control, black trace, Video 5)." should be Fig 8B,C

      We have fixed this error.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Introduction:

      Motivating this study in terms of understanding the neural mechanisms that execute the parallel model seems to overstate what you will achieve with the current study. If you want to motivate it this way, I suggest focusing on the grooming sequence of the head along (eyes, antennae, proboscis).

      We made several revisions to the manuscript that address this recommendation. Please see above for a description of these revisions. Please note that many of the revisions focus on the head grooming sequence. We also made minor revisions to the Introduction that further emphasize the focus on head grooming.

      Results:

      Figure 1. Please indicate that this is a male fly in either the figure title or in the figure itself.

      We added a male symbol to Figure 1A.

      Figure 3. Panel J is referenced in the main body text and in the figure caption, but there is no Fig 3J.

      Panel J is shown in the upper right corner of Figure 3. We realize that the placement of this panel is not ideal, but this was the only place that we could fit it. Additionally, the panel works nicely at that location to better enable comparison with panel C. We have revised the text in the Figure 3 legend to better highlight the location of this Figure panel: “Shown in the upper right corner of the figure are the aligned expression patterns of InOmBMN-LexA (red), dBMN-spGAL4 (green), and TasteBMN-spGAL4 (brown).”

      We also added text to a sentence in the results section entitled “Head BMNs project into discrete zones in the ventral brain” that indicates the panel location. This text reads: To further visualize the spatial relationships between these projections, we computationally aligned the expression patterns of the different driver lines into the same brain space (Figure 3J, upper right corner).

      Matching the BMNs to EM reconstructions: why cut the dendrogram at H=5? Would be better to determine cluster number using an unbiased method.

      To match the morphologically distinct EM reconstructed BMNs to their specific bristles, we relied on different lines of evidence, including NBLAST results (discussed more below), dye fill/stochastic labeling/driver line labeling matches, published morphology, nerve projection, bristle number, proximity to other BMNs, and postsynaptic connectivity (summarized in Figure 6 – figure supplement 3). The following Materials and methods section provides a detailed description of the evidence used to assign each BMN type in “Matching EM reconstructed BMN projections with light microscopy imaged BMNs that innervate specific bristles”. In many cases, BMN type could be assigned with confidence solely based on morphological comparisons with our light level data (e.g. dye fills), in conjunction with bristle counts to indicate an expected number of BMNs showing similar morphology. Thus, the LM/EM matches and NBLAST clustering were largely complementary.

      The EM reconstructed BMNs were matched as particular BMN types, in part based on examination of the NBLAST data at different cut heights. NBLAST clustering of the BMNs revealed general trends at higher and lower cut heights (Figure 6 – figure supplement 1A, Supplementary file 3). The lowest cut heights included mostly BMNs of the same type innervating the same bristle populations, and smaller clusters that subdivided into morphologically distinct subtypes (see Supplementary file 3 for clusters produced at cut height 1). This revealed that BMNs of the same type tended to show the highest morphological similarity with each other, but they also showed intratype morphological diversity. Higher cut heights produced clusters of BMNs innervating neighboring bristles populations (e.g. ventral head BMNs), showing high morphological similarity among neighboring BMN types.

      We selected the cut height 5 shown in Figure 6 – figure supplement 1A,B because it captures examples of both same and neighboring type clustering. For example, it captures a cluster of mostly BM-Taste neurons (Cluster 16), and neighboring BMN types, including those from the dorsal head (Cluster 14) or ventral head (Cluster 15).

      Based on reviewer comments, we realized that the way we wrote the BMN matching section in the Results indicated more reliance on the NBLAST clustering than what was actually necessary, distorting the way we actually matched the BMNs. Therefore, we softend the first couple of sentences to place less emphasis on the importance of the NBLAST. We also indicated that the readers can find the resulting clusters at different cut heights, referring to Figure 6 – figure supplement 1A and Supplementary file 3. The first two sentences of the first paragraph in the Results section titled “Matching the reconstructed head BMNs with their bristles” now read:

      The reconstructed BMN projections were next matched with their specific bristle populations. The projections were clustered based on morphological similarity using the NBLAST algorithm (example clustering at cut height 5 shown in Figure 6 – figure supplement 1A,B, Supplementary file 3, FlyWire.ai link 2) (Costa et al., 2016). Clusters could be assigned as BMN types based on their similarity to light microscopy images of BMNs known to innervate specific bristles.

      The number of reconstructed BMNs is remarkably similar to what is expected based on bristle counts for each group except for lnOm. Why do you think there is such a large discrepancy there?

      We believe that there is a discrepancy between the number of reconstructed BM-InOm neurons and the number expected based on InOm bristle counts because these bristle counts were based on few flies and these numbers appear to be variable. We did not further investigate the numbers of InOm bristles in this manuscript because we only needed an estimate of their numbers, given that there is over an order of magnitude difference in the eye bristles versus any other head bristle population. Therefore, we could relatively easily conclude that the head BMNs were related to the InOm bristles, based on their sheer numbers and their morphology.

      Figure 6 - figure supplement 2N, please describe these panels better. Main text says the upper image is from lnOmBMN-LexA, but the figure legend doesn't agree.

      We have added text to the figure legend that now makes the contents of panel 2N clear to the reader. Further, we now indicate in the figure legend for each panel, the method used to obtain the labeled neurons (i.e. fill, MCFO, driver), to avoid similar confusion for the other panels.

      Figure 6 - figure supplement 4D. How frequently is there a mismatch between the number of BMNs for a given type across hemispheres?

      Although the full reconstruction of the BMNs on both sides of the brain was beyond the scope of this work, the BMNs on both sides have since been reconstructed and annotated (Schlegal et al. 2023). We plan to provide more analysis of BMNs on both sides of the brain in a forthcoming manuscript. However, the BMN numbers tend to show agreement on both sides of the brain. The table below shows a comparison between the two sides:

      Author response table 1.

      Figures 6 and 7. It would be helpful to include a reference brain in all panels that show cluster morphology. Without landmarks there is nothing to anchor the eye to allow the reader to see the described differences in BMN projection zones and patterns.

      While we apologize for not making this specific change, we have made revisions to other parts of the manuscript to better highlight the somatotopic organization among the BMNs (revisions described above). Please note that we now provide FlyWire.ai publicly available links that enable readers to view the BMN projections in 3D. They can also toggle a brain mesh on and off to provide spatial reference.

      "BMN somatotopic map": It would be helpful to show or describe in more detail what the unique branch morphology for each zone is. It is quite difficult to appreciate, as the groups also have a lot of overlap. Would the unique regions that the BMN groups innervate be easier to see if you plotted presynaptic sites by group? I am left unsure about whether there is a somatotopic map here.

      We made several revisions to the manuscript that address this recommendation. Please see above for a description of these revisions. Please note that we did not examine the fine branch morphological differences between BMN types having overlapping projections. Showing these differences would require more extensive anatomical analysis that is beyond the scope of this work. For showing definitive somatotopy, we focused on the overt differences between BMNs innervating bristles at distant locations on the head.

      Overall the strict adherence to the parallel model impacts the interpretation of the data. It would be helpful for the authors to discuss which aspects of the current study are consistent with the parallel model and which results are not consistent.

      We made several revisions to the manuscript that address this recommendation. Please see above for a description of these revisions.

      Discussion:

      "Circuits that elicit aimed grooming of specific head locations": In the previous paragraph you mention "BMN types innervating neighboring bristle populations have overlapping projections into zones that correspond roughly to the dorsal, ventral, and posterior head. The overlap is likely functionally significant, as cosine similarity analysis revealed that neighboring head BMN types have common postsynaptic partners. However, overlap between neighboring BMN types is only partial, as they show differing projections and postsynaptic connectivity." Then in this paragraph, you say, "How do the parallel-projecting head BMNs interface with postsynaptic neural circuits to elicit aimed grooming of specific head locations? Different evidence supports the hypothesis that the BMNs connect with parallel circuits that each elicit a different aimed grooming movement (Seeds et al., 2014)." The overlapping postsynaptic BMN connectivity seems in conflict with the claim that the circuits are parallel.

      We apologize for this confusion. We now better describe this apparent discrepancy between our results and the parallel model of grooming behavior. We made several revisions to the manuscript that address this recommendation. Please see above for a description of these revisions.

      We have made additional changes to the manuscript:

      (1) We added Supplementary file 2 that includes links for downloading the image stacks used to generate panels in Figure 1, Figure 2, Figure 3, Figure 4, and figure supplements for these figures. These image stacks are stored in the Brain Image Library (BIL). Rows in the spreadsheet correspond to each image stack. Columns provide information about each stack including: figure panels that each image stack contributed to, image stack title, DOI for each stack (link provides metadata for each stack and file download link), image stack file name, genotype of imaged fly, and information about image stack. References to this file have been made at different locations throughout the text and Figure legends. We also added a section on the BIL data in the Materials and methods entitled “Light microscopy image stack storage and availability”. Old Supplementary file 2 has been renamed Supplementary file 3.

      (2) We added a new reference for FlyWire.ai (Dorkenwald et al. 2023) that was posted as a preprint during the revision of this manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      In the manuscript titled "Vangl2 suppresses NF-κB signaling and ameliorates sepsis by targeting p65 for NDP52-mediated autophagic degradation" by Lu et al, the authors show that Vangl2, a planner cell polarity component, plays a direct role in autophagic degradation of NFkB-p65 by facilitating its ubiquitination via PDLIM2 and subsequent recognition and autophagic targeting via the autophagy adaptor protein NDP52. Conceptually it is a wonderful study with excellent execution of experiments and controls. The concerns with the manuscript are mainly on two counts - First issue is the kinetics of p65 regulation reported here, which does not fit into the kinetics of the mechanism proposed here, i.e., Vangl2-mediated ubiquitination followed by autophagic degradation of p65. The second issue is more technical- an absolute lack of quantitative analyses. The authors rely mostly on visual qualitative interpretation to assess an increase or decrease in associations between partner molecules throughout the study. While the overall mechanism is interesting, the authors should address these concerns as highlighted below:

      Major points:

      (1) Kinetics of p65 regulation by Vangl2: As mentioned above, authors report that LPS stimulation leads to higher IKK and p65 activation in the absence of Vangl2. The mechanism of action authors subsequently work out is that- Vangl2 helps recruit E3 ligase PDLIM to p65, which causes K63 ubiquitination, which is recognised by NDP52 for autophagic targeting. Curiously, peak p65 activation is achieved within 30 minutes of LPS stimulation. The time scale of all other assays is way longer. It is not clear that in WT cells, p65 could be targeted to autophagic degradation in Vangl2 dependent manner within 30 minutes. The HA-Myc-Flag-based overexpression and Co-IP studies do confirm the interactions as proposed. However, they do not prove that this mechanism was responsible for the Vangl2-mediated modulation of p65 activation upon LPS stimulation. Moreover, the Vangl2 KO line also shows increased IKK activation. The authors do not show the cause behind increased IKK activation, which in itself can trigger increased p65 phosphorylation.

      We thank the reviewer for this valuable suggestion.

      Indeed, we agreed with the reviewer that peak p65 activation is achieved within 30 minutes of LPS stimulation in vitro, and p65 could not be targeted to autophagic degradation in a Vangl2 dependent manner within 30 minutes. Given that the protein and mRNA levels of Vangl2 were elevated at 3-6 h of LPS stimulation (Fig. S1 C-E), we extended the stimulation time scale in the revised manuscript. The data (Fig. 2A-D in the revised manuscript) demonstrated that IKK phosphorylation was enhanced in Vangl2 KO myeloid cells during the early phase (within 3 h) of LPS stimulation, but not for the prolonged period of LPS stimulation. The underlying mechanism may be complex. Only p65 phosphorylation was continuously enhanced after long-term LPS stimulation in Vangl2 KO cells, compared to WT cells. Furthermore, the overexpression of Vangl2 in A549 cells also demonstrated a reduction of phosphorylation and total endogenous p65 (Fig. 2 I, J in the revised manuscript). These findings were corroborated by overexpression and Co-IP experiments, which collectively indicated that Vangl2 regulates the stability of p65 by promoting its interaction with NDP52 and autophagic degradation. (Page 7; Line 183-185).  

      (2) The other major concern is regarding the lack of quantitative assessments. For Co-IP experiments, I can understand it is qualitative observation. However, when the authors infer that there is an increase or decrease in the association through co-IP immunoblots, it should also be quantified, especially since the differences are quite marginal and could be easily misinterpreted.

      We are grateful to the reviewer for this suggestion. The quantitative analysis has been updated in the revised version.

      (3) Figure 4E and F: It is evident that inhibiting Autolysosome (CQ or BafA1) or autophagy (3MA) led to the recovery of p65 levels and inducing autophagy by Rapamycin led to faster decay in p65 levels. Did the authors also note/explore the possibility that Vangl2 itself may be degraded via the autophagy pathway? IB of WCL upon CQ/BAF/3MA or upon Rapa treatment does indicate the same. If true, how would that impact the dynamics of p65 activation?

      We thank the reviewer for this question. Previous studies have shown that Vangl2 is primarily degraded by the proteasome pathway, rather than by the autolysosomal pathway (doi: 10.1126/sciadv.abg2099; doi: 10.1038/s41598-019-39642-z). In our experiments, Vangl2 recruits E3 ligase PDLIM2 to enhance K63-linked ubiquitination on p65, which serves as a recognition signal for cargo receptor NDP52-mediated selective autophagic degradation. Vangl2 facilitated the interaction between p65 and NDP52, yet itself did not undergo significant autophagic degradation.

      (4) Autophagic targeting of p65 should also be shown through alternate evidence, like microscopy etc., in the LPS-stimulated WT cells.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have added the data (co-localization of p65 and LC3 was detected by immunofluorescence) in the revised version (Fig. S4 H in the revised manuscript). (Page 9, lines 267-268)

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Vangl2, a core planar cell polarity protein involved in Wnt/PCP signaling, mediates cell proliferation, differentiation, homeostasis, and cell migration. Vangl2 malfunctioning has been linked to various human ailments, including autoimmune and neoplastic disorders. Interestingly, Vangl2 was shown to interact with the autophagy regulator p62, and indeed, autophagic degradation limits the activity of inflammatory mediators such as p65/NF-κB. However, if Vangl2, per se, contributes to restraining aberrant p65/NF-kB activity remains unclear.

      In this manuscript, Lu et al. describe that Vangl2 expression is upregulated in human sepsis-associated PBMCs and that Vangl2 mitigates experimental sepsis in mice by negatively regulating p65/NF-κB signaling in myeloid cells. Vangl2 recruits the E3 ubiquitin ligase PDLIM2 to promote K63-linked poly-ubiquitination of p65. Vangl2 also facilitates the recognition of ubiquitinated p65 by the cargo receptor NDP52. These molecular processes cause selective autophagic degradation of p65. Indeed, abrogation of PDLIM2 or NDP52 functions rescued p65 from autophagic degradation, leading to extended p65/NF-κB activity.

      As such, the manuscript presents a substantial body of interesting work and a novel mechanism of NF-κB control. If found true, the proposed mechanism may expand therapeutic opportunities for inflammatory diseases. However, the current draft has significant weaknesses that need to be addressed.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comments on our manuscript, and we have further improved the manuscript as suggested.

      Specific comments

      (1) Vangl2 deficiency did not cause a discernible increase in the cellular level of total endogenous p65 (Fig 2A and Fig 2B) but accumulated also phosphorylated IKK.

      Even Fig 4D reveals that Vangl2 exerts a rather modest effect on the total p65 level and the figure does not provide any standard error for the quantified data. Therefore, these results do not fully support the proposed model (Figure 7) - this is a significant draw back. Instead, these data provoke an alternate hypothesis that Vangl2 could be specifically mediating autophagic removal of phosphorylated IKK and phosphorylated IKK, leading to exacerbated inflammatory NF-κB response in Vangl2-deficient cells. One may need to use phosphorylation-defective mutants of p65, at least in the over-expression experiments, to dissect between these possibilities.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comments on our manuscript, and we have further improved the manuscript as suggested.

      (1) Indeed, we agreed with the reviewer that Vangl2 deficiency did not cause a discernible increase in the cellular level of total p65 after a short time of LPS stimulation in vitro, and p65 could not be targeted to autophagic degradation in a Vangl2 dependent manner within 30 minutes. Given that the protein and mRNA levels of Vangl2 were elevated at 3-6 h of LPS stimulation (Fig. S1 C-E), we extended the stimulation time scale in the revised manuscript. The data (Fig. 2A-D in the revised manuscript) demonstrated that IKK phosphorylation was enhanced in Vangl2 KO myeloid cells during the early phase (within 3 h) of LPS stimulation, but not for the prolonged period of LPS stimulation. The underlying mechanism may be complex. Only phosphorylation of p65 and total endogenous p65 was continuously enhanced after long-term LPS stimulation in Vangl2 KO cells, compared to WT cells. Furthermore, the overexpression of Vangl2 in A549 cells also demonstrated a reduction of phosphorylation and total endogenous p65 (Fig. 2 I, J in the revised manuscript). These findings were corroborated by overexpression and Co-IP experiments, which collectively indicated that Vangl2 regulates the stability of p65 by promoting its interaction with NDP52 and autophagic degradation. (Page 7; Line 183-185).  

      (2) Similarly, the stimulation time scale in Fig 4D was extended, and it was demonstrated that p65 was more stable in Vangl2-deficient cells.

      3) Moreover, we constructed phosphorylation-defective mutants of p65 (S536A), and found that Vangl2 could also promote the degradation of the p65 phosphorylation mutants (Fig. S4 A, B in the revised manuscript). Thus, Vangl2 promote the degradation of the basal/unphosphorylated p65. (Page 8, lines 237-240)

      (2) Fig 1A: The data indicates the presence of two subgroups within the sepsis cohort - one with high Vangl2 expressions and the other with relatively normal Vangl2 expression. Was there any difference with respect to NF-κB target inflammatory gene expressions between these subgroups?

      As suggested, we conducted an analysis of NF-kB target inflammatory gene expressions between the high and relatively low Vangl2 expression groups in sepsis patients. The results showed that the serum of the high Vangl2 expression group exhibited lower levels of IL-6, WBC, and CRP than the low Vangl2 expression group, which suggested an inverse correlation between Vangl2 and the inflammatory response (Fig. S1 A in the revised manuscript) (Page 5, lines 126-128).

      (3) The effect of Vangl2 deficiency was rather modest in the neutrophil. Could it be that Vangl2 mediates its effect mostly in macrophages?

      As showed in Fig. S1C-E, the induction of Vangl2 by LPS stimulation is more rapid in macrophages than in neutrophils. This may contribute to its dominant effect in macrophages. Consequently, we primarily focused our investigation on the role of Vangl2 in macrophages.

      (4) Fig 1D and Figure 1E: Data for unstimulated Vangl2 cells should be provided. Also, the source of the IL-1β primary antibody has not been mentioned.

      Thank you for the suggestion. We have updated the data for unstimulated cells in the revised manuscript (Fig. 1 D, E in the revised manuscript). Also, IL-1β primary antibody was purchased from Cell Signaling Technology and the information has been included in the Materials and Methods section (Table S1).

      (5) The relevance and the requirement of RNA-seq analysis are not clear in the present draft. Figure 1E already reveals upregulation of the signature NF-κB target inflammatory genes upon Vangl2 deficiency.

      We agreed with the reviewer that the data presented in Figure 1E demonstrated the upregulation of the signature NF-kB target inflammatory genes upon Vangl2 deficiency in a murine model of LPS induced sepsis. Subsequently, we proceeded to investigate the mechanism by which Vangl2 regulates NF-kB target inflammatory genes at the cellular level in Figure 2. To this end, we performed RNA-seq analysis to screen signal pathways involved in LPS-induced septic shock by comparing LPS-stimulated BMDMs from Vangl2ΔM and WT mice, and identified that TNF signaling pathway and cytokine-cytokine receptor interaction were found to be significantly enriched in Vangl2ΔM BMDMs upon LPS stimulation. This analysis provides further evidence that Vangl2 plays a role in regulating NF-kB signaling pathways and the release of related inflammatory cytokines.

      (6) Fig 2A reveals an increased accumulation of phosphorylated p65 and IKK in Vangl2-deficient macrophages upon LPS stimulation within 30 minutes. However, Vangl2 accumulates at around 60 minutes post-stimulation in WT cells. Similar results were obtained for neutrophils (Fig 2B). There appears to be a temporal disconnect between Vangl2 and phosphorylated p65 accumulation - this must be clarified.

      This concern has been addressed above (see response to questions 1 from reviewer #2). 

      (7) Figure 2E and 2F do not have untreated controls. Presentations in Fig 2E may be improved to more clearly depict IL6 and TNF data, preferably with separate Y-axes.

      Thank you for the suggestion. We have added untreated controls and separated Y-axes for IL-6 and TNF data in the revised manuscript (Fig. 2 E, F in the revised manuscript).

      (8) Line 219: "strongly with IKKα, p65 and MyD88, and weak" - should be revised.

      We have improved the manuscript as suggested in the revised manuscript (Page 7; Line 203).

      (9) It is not clear why IKKβ was excluded from interaction studies in Fig S3G.

      We added the Co-IP experiment and showed that HA-tagged Vangl2 only interacted with Flag-tagged p65, but not with Flag-tagged IKKb in 293T cells (Fig S3H). Furthermore, endogenous co-IP immunoblot analyses showed that Vangl2 did not associate with IKKb (Fig. S3I)

      (10) Fig 3F- In the text, authors mentioned that Vangl2 strongly associates with p65 upon LPS stimulation in BMDM. However, no controls, including input or another p65-interacting protein, were used.

      As reviewer suggested, we have added input and positive control (IkBa) in this experiment (Fig. 3F in the revised manuscript). The results demonstrated that the interaction between p65 and IkBa was attenuated, although the total IkBa did not undergo significant degradation over long-term course of LPS stimulation.

      (11) Figure 4D - Authors claim that Vangl2-deficient BMDMs stabilized the expression of endogenous p65 after LPS treatment. However, p65 levels were particularly constitutively elevated in knockout cells, and LPS signaling did not cause any further upregulation. This again indicates the role of Vangl2 in the basal state. The authors need to explain this and revise the test accordingly.

      Thank you for the reviewer's comments. We repeated the experiment to ascertain whether Vangl2 could stabilize the expression of endogenous p65 before and after LPS treatment. It was found that, due to the extremely low expression of Vangl2 in WT cells in the absence of stimulation, there was no observable difference on the basal level of p65 between WT and Vangl2DM cells. However, upon prolonged LPS stimulation, Vangl2 expression was induced, resulting in p65 degradation in WT cells. In contrast, p65 protein was more stable in Vangl2 deficient cells after LPS stimulation (Fig. 4D in the revised manuscript).

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Lu et al. describe Vangl2 as a negative regulator of inflammation in myeloid cells. The primary mechanism appears to be through binding p65 and promoting its degradation, albeit in an unusual autolysosome/autophagy dependent manner. Overall, the findings are novel and the crosstalk of PCP pathway protein Vangl2 with NF-kappaB is of interest. …….Regardless, Vangl2 as a negative regulator of NF-kappaB is an important finding. There are, however, some concerns about methodology and statistics that need to be addressed.

      Thank you for your comments on our manuscript, and we have further improved the manuscript as suggested.

      (1) Whether PCP is anyway relevant or if this is a PCP-independent function of Vangl2 is not directly explored (the later appears more likely from the manuscript/discussion). PCP pathways intersect often with developmentally important pathways such as WNT, HH/GLI, Fat-Dachsous and even mechanical tension. It might be of importance to investigate whether Vangl2-dependent NF-kappaB is influenced by developmental pathways.

      Thank you for the reviewer's insightful comments. Our study revealed that Vangl2 recruits the E3 ubiquitin ligase PDLIM2 to facilitate K63-linked ubiquitination of p65, which is subsequently recognized by autophagy receptor NDP52 and then promotes the autophagic degradation of p65. Our findings by using autophagy inhibitors and autophagic-deficient cells indicate that Vangl2 regulates NF-kB signaling through a selective autophagic pathway, rather than affecting the PCP pathway, WNT, HH/GLI, Fat-Dachsous or even mechanical tension. Moreover, a discussion section has been added to the revised version. (Page 12, lines 377-393)

      (2) Are Vangl2 phosphorylations (S5, S82 and S84) in anyway necessary for the observed effects on NF-kappaB or would a phospho-mutant (alanine substitution mutant) Vangl2 phenocopy WT Vangl2 for regulation of NF-kappaB?

      As suggested, we generated phospho-mutants of Vangl2 (S82/84A) and observed that Vangl2 (S82/84A) could still facilitate the degradation of p65 (Fig. S4 B in the revised manuscript), suggesting that Vangl2 regulates the NF-kB pathway independently of its phosphorylation.

      (3) Another area to strengthen might be with regards to specificity of cell types where this phenomenon may be observed. LPS treatment in mice resulted in Vangl2 upregulation in spleen and lymph nodes, but not in lung and liver. What explains the specificity of organ/cell-type Vangl2 upregulation and its consequences observed here? Why is NF-kappaB signaling not more broadly or even ubiquitously affected in all cell types in a Vangl2-dependent manner, rather than being restricted to macrophages, neutrophils and peritoneal macrophages, or, for that matter, in spleen and LN and not liver and lung? After all, one may think that the PCP proteins, as well as NF-kappaB, are ubiquitous.

      Thank you for the reviewer's comments.

      (1) LPS is an important mediator to trigger sepsis with excessive immune activation. As is well known, the spleen and lymph nodes are important peripheral immune organs, where immune cells (e.g., macrophages) are abundant and respond sensitively to LPS stimulation. Nevertheless, immune cells represent a minor fraction of the lungs and liver. Consequently, Vangl2 represents a pivotal regulator of immune function, exhibiting a more pronounced increase in the immune organs and cells.

      2) Induction of Vangl2 expression by LPS stimulation is cell specific. Given that different cells exhibit varying protein abundances, the molecular events involved may also differ. Moreover, we observed high Vangl2 expression in the liver at the basal state (Author response image 1), whereas it was not induced after 12 h of LPS stimulation. Therefore, the functional role of Vangl2 exhibits significant phenotype in macrophages and neutrophils/spleen and LN, rather than in liver or lung cells.

      Author response image 1.

      Vangl2 showed no significant changes in the liver after LPS treatment. Mice (n≥3) were treated with LPS (30 mg/kg, i.p.). Livers were collected at 12 h after LPS treatment. Immunoblot analysis of Vangl2.

      Recommendations For The Authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      General points:

      Figure 4G- panels appear mislabeled. Pl correct.

      We have corrected this mislabeling as you suggested.

      The dynamics of Vangl2 interaction with p65 and autophagy adaptors is not clear/apparent. For example, Vangl2 expression destabilises p65 levels (as in Fig. 4), but in Fig. 5, it seems there is no decline in the p65 protein level, and a large fraction of it coprecipitates with NDP52.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comments. In the co-IP assay, we used the lysosomal inhibitor CQ to inhibit p65 degradation to observe the interaction between p65 and NDP52 or Vangl2.

      Fig 5E- I would expect p65 levels to be lower in WT cells than Vangl2 KO cells. But as such, there is no difference between the two.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comments. We repeated the experiments and updated the data. Firstly, Vangl2 was not induced in WT cells in the absence of LPS stimulation, thus there was no difference in p65 expression between the two groups at the basal level. Secondly, we used CQ/Baf-A1 to inhibit the degradation of Vangl2 in the co-IP assay to observe the interaction between p65 and other molecule.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      A few points that can be looked at and revised.

      (1) Quantification of the presented data is needed for Fig 4D and Fig 4E.

      We added the quantification analysis as suggested.  

      (2) The labeling of Fig 4G should be scrutinized.

      We have corrected this mislabeling as you suggested.

      (3) Fig 6B and Fig 6C should be explained in the result section more elaborately.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion, and we have rephrased this sentence to better describe the results. (Page 10, lines 306-313)

      (4) Line 85: "Vangl2 mediated downstream of Toll-like or interleukin (IL)-1" - unclear.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comments on our manuscript, and we have further improved the manuscript as suggested in the revised manuscript. (Page 3, lines 68)

      (5) Line 181: "mice. Differentially expression analysis" - this should be revised.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comments on our manuscript, and we have further improved the manuscript as suggested in the revised manuscript. (Page 11, lines 323)

      (6) Line 261-264- CHX-chase assay showed the degradation rate of p65 in Vangl2-deficient BMDM was slower compared with WT cells. However, Vangl2 is not induced in WT BMDMs upon CHX treatment (Fig. S4B).

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comments on our manuscript, and we have further improved the manuscript as suggested in the revised manuscript (Fig. S4D).

      (7) Finally, some editing to provide data only critical for the conclusions could improve the ease of reading.

      We have further improved the manuscript as suggested in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Comments (general, please address at least in Discussion. Some experimental data, for example the role, if any, of Vangl2 phosphorylations will be very useful):

      (1) It might be interesting to explore whether there are any potential effects of developmental pathways on the observed effect mediated by Vangl2 or if the effects are entirely a PCP-independent function of Vangl2. Please see above public review.

      Thank you for the reviewer's insightful comments. Our study revealed that Vangl2 recruits the E3 ubiquitin ligase PDLIM2 to facilitate K63-linked ubiquitination of p65, which is subsequently recognized by autophagy receptor NDP52 and then promotes the autophagic degradation of p65. Our findings by using autophagy inhibitors and autophagic-deficient cells indicate that Vangl2 regulates NF-kB signaling through a selective autophagic pathway, rather than affecting the PCP pathway, WNT, HH/GLI, Fat-Dachsous or even mechanical tension. Furthermore, we generated phospho-mutants of Vangl2 (S82/84A) and observed that Vangl2 (S82/84A) could still facilitate the degradation of p65 (Fig. S4 B), suggesting that Vangl2 regulates the NF-kB pathway independently of its phosphorylation. In addition, a discussion section has been added to the revised version. (Page 12, lines 377-393)

      (2) What explains the specificity of organ/cell-type Vangl2 upregulation and its consequences observed here? Why is NF-kappaB signaling not more broadly or even ubiquitously affected in all cell types in a Vangl2-dependent manner, rather than being restricted to macrophages, neutrophils and peritoneal macrophages, or, for that matter, in spleen and LN and not liver and lung? Afterall, one may think that the PCP proteins, as well as NF-kappaB, are ubiquitous.

      Thank you for the reviewer's comments. A similar question has been addressed above (refer to the response to question 3 of reviewer 3).

      (3) Another specificity-related question that comes to mind is whether the Vangl2 function in autolysomal/autophagic degradation is restricted to p65 as the exclusive substrate? The cytosolic targeting of p65 as opposed to the more well-known nuclear-targeting is interesting.

      Our previous finding demonstrated that Vangl2 inhibits antiviral IFN-I signaling by targeting TBK1 for autophagic degradation (doi: 10.1126/sciadv.adg2339), thereby indicating that p65 is not the sole substrate for Vangl2. However, in the NF-kB pathway, p65 is a specific substrate for Vangl2. Moreover, our findings indicate that the interaction between Vangl2 and p65 occurs predominantly in the cytoplasm, rather than in the nucleus (Fig. S4 C).

      (4) Pharmacological approach is used to tease apart autolysosome versus proteasome pathway. What is the physiological importance of autophagic degradation? It is interesting to note that Vangl2 was already previously implicated in degrading LAMP-2A and increasing chaperon-mediated autophagy (CMA)-lysosome numbers (PMID: 34214490).

      Previous literature has domonstrated that Vangl2 can inhibit CMA degradation (PMID: 34214490). However, in our study, we found that Vangl2 can promote the selective autophagic degradation of p65. It is important to note that CMA degradation and selective autophagic degradation are two distinct degradation modes, which is not contradictory.

      (5) Are these phenotypes discernable in heterozygotes or only when ablated in homozygosity? Any phenotypes recapitulated in the looptail heterozygote mice?

      We found that these phenotypes discernable only in homozygosity.

      (6) What is the conservation of the Vangl2 p65-interaction site between Vangl2 and Vangl1? PDLIM2 recruitment between Vangl2 and Vangl1?

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comments on our manuscript. Previous studies have shown that human Vangl1 and Vangl2 exhibit only 72% identity and exhibit distinct functional properties (doi: 10.1530/ERC-14-0141).Thus, the interaction of Vangl2 with p65 and PDLIM2 recruitment may not necessarily occur in Vangl1.

      Comments (specific to experiments and data analyses. Please address the following):

      (7) The patient population used in Fig 1 is not described in the Methods. This is a critical omission. Were age, sex etc. controlled for between healthy and disease? How was the diagnosis made? What times during sepsis were the samples collected? As presented, this data is impossible to evaluate and interpret.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comments on our manuscript, and we have further improved the manuscript as suggested in the revised supplement materials. (Supplementary information, Page 12, lines 146-147)

      (8) In general, the statistical method should be described for each experiment presented in the figures. Comparisons should not be made only at the time point with maximal difference (such as in Fig 1F or Fig 2C, but at all time points using appropriate statistical methods). The sample size should also be included to allow determination appropriateness of parametric or non-parametric tests.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comments on our manuscript, and we have further improved the manuscript as suggested in the revised manuscript (Figures 1F and 2C).

      (9) PCP pathways can activate p62/SQSTM1 or JNK via RhoA. JNK activation should be tested experimentally.

      According to the reviewer's comments, we further examined the effect of Vangl2 on the JNK pathway. The results showed that Vangl2 did not affect the JNK pathway (Author response image 2). This suggests that Vangl2 functions independently of the PCP pathway.

      Author response image 2.

      Vangl2 did not affect the JNK pathway. WT and Vangl2-deficient (n≥3) BMDMs were stimulated with LPS (100 ng/ml) for the indicated times. Immunoblot analysis of total and phosphorylated JNK.

      (10) Why are different cells such as A549, HEK293, CHO, 293T, THP-1 used during the studies for different experiments? Consistency would improve rigor. At least, logical explanation driving the cell type of choice for each experiment should be included in the manuscript. Nonetheless, one aspect of using a panel of cell lines indicate that the effect of Vangl2 on NF-kappa B is pleiotropic.

      We are grateful to the reviewer for their comments on our manuscript. A549, HEK293, CHO, and 293T cells are commonly utilized in protein-protein interaction studies. The selection of cell lines for overexpression (exogenous) experiment is dependent on their transfection efficiency and the ability to express TLR4 (the receptor for LPS). Additionally, we conducted endogenous experiments by using THP-1 and BMDMs, which are human macrophage cell lines and murine primary macrophages, respectively. Moreover, we generated Vangl2f/f lyz-cre mice by specifically knocking out Vangl2 in myeloid cells, and investigated the effect of Vangl2 on NF-kB signaling in vivo.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript describes the crystal structures of Streptococcus pneumoniae NOXs. Crystals were obtained for the wild-type and mutant dehydrogenase domain, as well as for the full-length protein comprising the membrane domain. The manuscript further carefully studies the enzyme's kinetics and substrate-specificity properties. Streptococcus pneumoniae NOX is a non-regulated enzyme, and therefore, its structure should provide a view of the NOX active conformation. The structural and biochemical data are discussed on this ground.

      Strengths:

      This is very solid work. The protein chemistry and biochemical analysis are well executed and carefully described. Similarly, the crystallography must be appreciated given the difficulty of obtaining good enzyme preparations and the flexibility of the protein. Even if solved at medium resolution, the crystal structure of the full-length protein conveys relevant information. The manuscript nicely shows that the domain rotations are unlikely to be the main mechanistic element of NOX regulation. It rather appears that the NADPH-binding conformation is pivotal to enzyme activation. The paper extensively refers to the previous literature and analyses the structures comprehensively with a comparison to previously reported structures of eukaryotic and prokaryotic NOXs.

      We thank the referee for these very nice comments about our work.

      Weaknesses:

      The manuscript is not always very clear with regard to the analysis of NADPH binding. The last section describes a "crevice" featured by the NADPH-binding sites in NOXs. It remains unclear whether this element corresponds to the different conformations of the protein C-terminal residues or more extensive structural differences. This point must be clarified.

      We agree with the referee that our terminology was not very clear. Responding to your comment helped us to improve our explanation: we have changed the text to emphasize the differences we observe in the distances between the FAD binding groove and the entire NADPH binding groove, which includes conserved NADPH-contacting motifs as well as the critical aromatic.

      A second less convincing point concerns the nature of the electron acceptor. The manuscript states that this NOX might not physiologically act as a ROS producer. A question then immediately arises: Is this protein an iron reductase?

      Can the authors better discuss or provide more data about this point?

      The referee has a legitimate point, which was also our first idea. In the initial work on SpNOX, where we discovered bacterial NOX enzymes (see Hajjar et al 2017 in mBio), we evaluated its possible role as an iron reductase. There we showed that SpNOX can reduce CytC directly; however, while some reduction of Fe3+-NTA complex (used classically in ferric reductase activity assay) occurred, this reduction was inhibitable by SOD and occurred indirectly by the superoxide produced, so therefore not a true iron reductase activity. This represents a mixed situation of direct and indirect reduction of an iron-containing acceptor that appears to preclude physiological iron reductase activity since it appears that the protein component of CytC allows it to interact with SpNOX. As these questions had been already addressed in a previous paper, we did not add anything here and we prefer to underline this possibility of another acceptor and to leave this question open for future works.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The authors describe the structure of the S. pneumoniae Nox protein (SpNOX). This is a first. The relevance of it to the structure and function of eukaryotic Noxes is discussed in depth.

      Strengths and Weaknesses

      One of the strengths of this work is the effort put into preparing a pure and functionally active SpNOX preparation. The protein was expressed in E. coli and the purification and optimization of its thermostability and activity are described in detail, involving salt concentration, glycerol concentration, and pH.

      This reviewer was surprised by the fact that the purification protocol in the eLife paper differs from those in the mBio and Biophys. J. papers by the absence of the detergent lauryl maltose neopentyl glycol (LMNG). LMNG is only present in the activity assay at a low concentration (0.003%; molar data should be given; by my calculation, this corresponds to 30 μM).

      We regret this misunderstanding: our description was not clear enough. As the referee points out, in previous papers we purified the full length SpNOX with the detergent LMNG. In the current paper, we described only the protocol for SpNOX DH domain variant, a soluble cytoplasmic domain. We have now modified the text to clarify the difference between the purification of fulllength SpNOX variants, which were performed with detergent as cited in Vermot et al 2020, and the purification of DH domains, which are soluble and thus did not require detergent in the purification.

      In light of the presence of lipids in cryo-EM-solved structures of DUOX and NOX2, it is surprising that the authors did not use reconstitution of the purified SpNOX in phospholipid (nanodisk?). The issue is made more complicated by the statement on p. 18 of "structures solved in detergent like ours" when no use of detergent in the solubilization and purification of SpNOX is mentioned in the Methods section (p. 21-22).

      As stated above, detergent used to purify the full-length version of SpNOX. We did in fact perform some preliminary tests of reconstitution in nanodiscs. Different trials of negative staining studies showed heterogeneous size of SpNOX in nanodiscs and the initial images were not promising. Furthermore, in parallel, we had positive results in crystallography relatively quickly with protein in detergent. We thus focused on refining the crystals, which was a fairly long and mobilizing task; we decided to allocate time and resources to the promising avenue and did not further pursue nanodiscs.

      We did not go in theCryo-EM direction because the small size of the protein was initially believed to be a significant barrier to successful Cryo-EM. Perhaps we could have pursued this avenue: while our manuscript here was submitted to eLife, another group deposited a preprint in BioRxiv using CryoEM to solve the structure of SpNOX (see comment below). This structure was solved in detergent so even in this CryEM structure there is no information on the potential roles of lipids as asked by the referee.

      In this revised version, we have added a comment, in the last paragraph, in reference to the additional data available today thanks to the other structures generated by this other group (Murphy's group).

      Can the authors provide information on whether E. coli BL21 is sufficiently equipped for the heme synthesis required for the expression of the TM domain of SpNOX. Was supplementation with δaminolevulinic acid used

      The production of His-SpNox in E.coli C41(DE3) is without any δ-aminolevulinic acid supplementation. Supplementation was tested but no change was observed regarding the heme content (UV/Visible spectra) so we settled on the purification described by Vermot et al 2020. Initially, for the mBio paper (Haajar et al 2017), we performed heme titrations which gave stoichiometry between 1.35 to 1.5 heme/protein, indicating 2 hemes (these data were not shown). In the end in this work we observed two hemes in the crystal structure, thus confirming that E.coli, at least for this protein, did not need supplementation with δ-aminolevulinic acid .

      The 3 papers on SpNOX present more than convincing evidence that SpNOX is a legitimate Nox that can serve as a legitimate model for eukaryotic Noxes (cyanide resistance, inhibition by DPI, absolute FAD dependence, and NADPH/NADH as the donor or electrons to FAD). It is also understood that the physiological role of SpNOX in S. pneumoniae is unknown and that the fact that it can reduce molecular oxygen may be an experimental situation that does not occur in vivo.

      I am, however, linguistically confused by the statement that "SpNOX requires "supplemental" FAD". Noxes have FAD bound non-covalently and this is the reason that, starting from the key finding of Babior on NOX2 back in 1977 to the present, FAD has to be added to in vitro systems to compensate for the loss of FAD in the course of the purification of the enzyme from natural sources or expression in a bacterial host. I wonder whether this makes FAD more of a cosubstrate than a prosthetic group unless what the authors intend to state is that SpNOX is not a genuine flavoprotein.

      We believe there is some confusion between SpNOX – the full length transmembran protein -- and SpNOXDH -- the cytosolic domain only. The sentence pinpointed by the referee was in fact “The strict requirement of FAD addition for SpNOXDH activity suggests that the flavin behaves as a cosubstrate”. This statement was about the isolated cytosolic domain that does not contain the TM part of the protein.

      We agree that in WT NOX enzymes (including SpNOX) FAD is held within the enzyme structure and thus can be considered, by definition, as a prosthetic group. This is supported by the nanomolar affinity for FAD of SpNOX. We did not intend to say that NOX and SpNOX are not genuine flavoproteins.

      On the other hand, when isolated, the affinity of DH domain for flavins drops to the µM level. This µM level of affinity does not allow stable maintenance of the flavin in the active site as illustrated by the spectra of Figure 3. This is instead the typical affinity of a substrate or a co-substrate (similar to that of substrate NADPH) that can be exchangeable and diffuse in and out of the active site. The DH domain recognizes and reduces flavins but, as a consequence of its lower affinity, will release to its environment free reduced flavins. Thus the isolated DH behaves as a flavin reductase that uses flavin as substrate. Such enzymes have already been well described (and some of them are of the FNR family). Such enzymes, using flavin as substrate, typically have affinity for flavin in the µM range and share with the SpNOX DH binding properties centered on the isoalloxazine ring only.

      We understand that, in the text, to switch from the SpNOX to the SpNOX DH and for FAD from a prosthetic group to a diffusible co-substrate can be confusing. So, to make it clearer, we modified the following sentences and added references to “some flavin reductases characterization” that could provide support for the reader.

      “The strict requirement of FAD addition for SpNOXDH activity and its µM level of affinity suggests that the flavin behaves as a co-substrate rather than a prosthetic group. As an isolated domain, SpNOXDH may work as a flavin reductase enzyme (Gaudu et al, 1994; Fieschi et al 1995; Nivière et al 1996), ..”

      We hope that it will help.

      I am also puzzled by the statement that SpNOX "does not require the addition of Cyt c to sustain superoxide production". Researchers with a Cartesian background should differentiate between cause and effect. Cyt c serves merely as an electron acceptor from superoxide made by SpNOX but superoxide production and NADPH oxidation occur independently of the presence of added Cyt c.

      Thanks to the referee for pointing out this poor wording. We agree and have amended the text to clarify what we originally meant. It is now:

      “SpNOXDH requires supplemental FAD to sustain both superoxide production, which can be observed in the presence of Cyt c (Figure 2A), and NADPH oxidation, which can be observed in the absence of Cyt c (Figure 2B).”

      The ability of the DH domain of SpNOX (SpNOXDH) to produce superoxide is surprising to this reviewer.The result is based on the inhibition of Cyt c reduction by added superoxide dismutase (SOD) by 40%. In all eukaryotic Noxes superoxide is produced by the one-electron reduction of molecular oxygen by electrons originating from the distal heme, having passed from reduced FAD via two hemes. The proposal that superoxide is generated by direct transfer of electrons from FAD to oxygen deserves a more in-depth discussion and relies too heavily on the inhibitory effect of SOD. A control experiment with inactivated SOD should have been done (SOD is notoriously heat resistant and inactivation might require autoclaving).

      The initial reports of a NOX DH-domain-only construct (that of human Nox4) producing superoxide are cited in the text. Moreover, natural flavin reductases are known to produce superoxide due to the release of free reduced flavin in the medium.

      As explain above, FAD in full length SpNox is a relay for the electrons from NADPH to heme and is internal to the protein and thus devoted to this specific task.

      In the case of SpNOX DH, its flavin reductase behavior leads to the release in the medium of free reduced flavin as a nonspecific diffusible electron carrier. It has been already demonstrated that such free reduced flavin can efficiently reduce soluble O2 and be a source of superoxide.

      This has been particularly well documented in (Gaudu et al, 1994. J.Biol.Chem). We have added this reference to the text (see the modified sentence in a reply, 2 comments above).

      Furthermore, we want to point to the referee that the link between flavin and superoxide production here is not only based on the inhibition by SOD. When we added the flavin inhibitor DPI we observed no more superoxide production from the DH domain (Figure 2C). This supports the role of free-reduced flavin in both the production of superoxide and also part of direct cyt C reduction as observed.

      An unasked and unanswered question is that, since under aerobic conditions, both direct Cyt c reduction (60%) and superoxide production (40%) occur, what are the electron paths responsible for the two phenomena occurring simultaneously?

      We thank the referee for dedication to a clear understanding of the mechanism used by the SpNOXDH construct. It pushes us to develop a clear description of the mechanism at work here for the readers. Please find below a proposal mechanism describing the electron transfer from NAD(P)H to free flavin that can, as diffusible species, then reduce non-specifically either the O2 or the Cyt.C encountered.

      Author response image 1.

      However, it is important to remember that this is not physiological, and rather the result of using a DH domain isolated from the TM of SpNOX. Nonetheless, it shows that the DH domain is fully functional for NAD(P)H as well as the hydride transfer.

      This reviewer had difficulty in following the argument that the fact that the kcat of SpNOX and SpNOXDH are similar supports the thesis that the rate of enzyme activation is dependent on hydride transfer from nicotinamide to FAD.

      We have amended the text to clarify this point. If the reaction rate is not affected by the presence or absence of the hemes in the TM domain, this inevitably implies that the rate is NOT limited by the electron transfer to the heme, and ultimately to O2, from the FAD, and thus the hydride transfer step that oxidizes the FAD must be the rate limiting step.

      The section dealing with mutating F397 is a key part of the paper. There is a proper reference to the work of the Karplus group on plant FNRs (Deng et al). However, later work, addressing comparison with NOX2, should be cited (Kean et al., FEBS J., 284, 3302-3319, 2017). Also, work from the Dinauer group on the minimal effect of mutating or deleting the C-terminal F570 in NOX2 on superoxide production should be cited (Zhen et al., J. Biol. Chem. 273, 6575-6581, 1998).

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out our unintended omission of these important works; we have amended the text and added the citations.

      It is not clear why mutating F397 to W (both residues having aromatic side chains) would stabilize FAD binding.

      In a few words, trp’s double ring can establish larger and stronger vanderWaals contact with the isoalloxazine ring than the phe sidechain. Our discussion regarding this point is extensive in the structural section where we compare the structures with F and W in this position. At this time we do not think it is necessary to add anything to the text.

      Also, what is meant by "locking the two subdomains of the DH domain"? What subdomains are meant?

      The two subdomains are the NADPH-binding domain and the FAD-binding domain, which we define on p 11 (“SpNOXDH presents a typical fold of the FNR superfamily of reductase domain containing two sub-domains, the FAD-binding domain (FBD) and an NADPH-binding domain (NBD) “) and which are labeled in Fig. 4. By “locking” we meant to convey immobilizing them into a specific conformation; we have amended the text to clarify this point.

      Methodological details on crystallization (p. 11) should be delegated to the Methodology section. How many readers are aware that SAD means "Single Wavelength Anomalous Diffraction" or know what is the role of sodium bromide?

      We have amended the text to emphasize the intended point, which is the different origins of the two DH structures: the de novo structure was possible through co crystallization with bromide, and the molecular replacement structure used the de novo structure as a model.

      The data on the structure of SpNOX are supportive of a model of Nox activation that is "dissident" relative to the models offered for DUOX and NOX2 activation. These latter models suggested that the movement of the DH domain versus the TM domain was related to conversion from the resting to the activated state. The findings reported in this paper show that, unexpectedly, the domain orientation in SpNOX (constitutively active!) is much closer to that of resting NOX2. One of the criteria associated with the activated state in Noxes was the reduction of the distance between FAD and the proximal heme. The authors report that, paradoxically, this distance is larger in the constitutively active SpNOX (9.2 Å) than that in resting state NOX2 (7.6 Å) and the distance in Ca2+-activated DUOX is even larger (10.2 Å).

      A point made by the authors is the questioning of the paradigm that activation of Noxes requires DH domain motion.

      Instead, the authors introduce the term "tensing", within the DH domain, from a "relaxed" to a more rigid conformation. I believe that this proposal requires a somewhat clearer elaboration

      It is clear that the distance between the FAD and NADPH shown in the Duox and Nox2 structures is too large for the chemical reaction of hydride transfer. Wu et al used the terms ‘tense’ and ‘relaxed’ to describe conformations of the DH domain corresponding to ‘short distance’ and ‘longer distance’, respectively, between the two ligand binding sites. We quoted this terminology and have amended the text to clarify that we envision a motion of the NBD relative to the FBD, as distinct from a larger motion of the whole DH domain relative to the TM domain.

      The statement on p. 18, in connection to the phospholipid environment of Noxes, that the structure of SpNOX was "solved in detergent" is puzzling since the method of SpNOX preparation and purification does not mention the use of a detergent. As mentioned before, this absence of detergent in the present report was surprising because LMNG was used in the methods described in the mBio and Biophys. J. papers. The only mention of LMNG in the present paper was as an addition at a concentration of 0.003% in the activity assay buffers.

      Please see our response to similar points above. Detergent was present for the solubilization of the full-length SpNOX.

      The Conclusions section contains a proposal for the mechanism of conversion of NOX2 from the resting to the activated state. The inclusion of this discussion is welcome but the structural information on the constitutively active SpNOX can, unfortunately, contribute little to solving this important problem. The work of the Lambeth group, back in 1999 (cited as Nisimoto et al.), on the role of p67-phox in regulating hydride transfer from NADPH to FAD in NOX2 may indeed turn out to have been prophetic. However, only solving the structure of the assembled NOX2 complex will provide the much-awaited answer. The heterodimerization of NOX2 with p22-phox, the regulation of NOX2 by four cytosolic components, and the still present uncertainty about whether p67-phox is indeed the final distal component that converts NOX2 to the activated state make this a formidable task.

      The work of the Fieschi group on SpNOX is important and relevant but the absence of external regulation, the absence of p22-phox, and the uncertainty about the target molecule make it a rather questionable model for eukaryotic Noxes. The information on the role of the C-terminal Phe is of special value although its extension to the mechanism of eukaryotic Nox activation proved, so far, to be elusive.

      We really thank the referee for the positive comments on our work and the deep interest shown by this careful evaluation.

      We understand the arguments of the referee regarding the relevance of our work here to eukaryotic NOX, but we do not share the reservations expressed. While human NOXes need interactions with other proteins or have EF-hand or other domains that control them, SpNOX corresponds exactly to the minimal core common to any NOX isoform. In fact, because SpNOX has only this conserved core, it is unique in that it can work as a constitutively active NOX without protein-protein interactions or regulatory domains. Thus the fundamentals of electron transfer mechanisms of NOX enzyme are present in SpNOX.

      There might be some differences in the internal organization from isoform to isoform (as regarding the relative DH domain vs TM domain orientation) but considering the similarity between NOX2 and SpNOX topology we are rather confident that the SpNOX structure will turn out to be a reasonable model of the activated NOX2 structure. History will tell.

      In any case, this work on SpNOX allowed us to highlight hydride transfer as the limiting step and also to highlight some structural differences that could be at the source of the regulation in eukaryotic NOX. In itself, we think this is a significant contribution to the field.

      We warmly thank both referees for their constructive remarks and their help in the improvement of this manuscript.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      • The manuscript states that the flavin "behaves" like a co-substrate and thereby reports on the Km for the flavins. I feel that this terminology might be confusing. The flavin is unchanged after the reaction, and what matters is the enzyme's affinity for the flavin and the flavin concentration needed to saturate the enzyme (to have it in the fully holo form).

      See above -- answering many questions from referee2, we have extensively commented on that point (substrate, cofactor, affinity, etc..) and made some adjustments in the text to clarify. We hope it is now satisfactory.

      • I could not find the methodological description of the experiments performed to measure the Km for the flavins, and the legend of Figure S4 does not help in this regard. I think that the data (left panels of S4) should be interpreted as binding curves with associated Kd values.

      We have changed the text to clarify the method used to measure Km for flavins.

      • A related point is that the manuscript refers to Km as an "affinity". This is inappropriate and should be avoided, as the Km is not the Kd.

      We agree with the referee that the Km is not the Kd. However, under the appropriate conditions, to which our experiments conform, Km is accepted as a relevant approximation of affinity (Srinisivan, FEBS Journal, v 289 pp 6086-6098 2022). We have added a sentence to clarify this point and cite this reference in the text.

      • The environment around the putative oxygen site should be shown. The text indicates that "the residues characteristic of the O2 reducing center in eukaryotic FRD domains of NOX and DUOX enzymes are not conserved in SpNOX." How does the site look? This point relates to the more general comment above on the oxidizing substrate used by this bacterial NOX.

      This is a really interesting point that contains many potential biological developments for future studies of this prokaryotic family of NOX enzymes. While we were submitting this work to eLife for evaluation, another group (Murphy's lab) filed a pre-publication in BioRXiv, in which they also solved the structure of SpNOX but this time by CryoEM with an unexpected level of resolution for such a small protein (their paper is not yet published but probably under peer review somewhere). In their work, they made a special effort to identify the O2 reducing center (bacterial NOX sequences alignment, mutation studies, …) They were not able to localize such a site with accuracy. There is also other complementary data between their work and ours. So, we will add a paragraph at the end of the discussion to comment on this parallel work and to emphasize on the complementarity of their studies and what it brings to the final understanding of this enzyme.

      • The section "A Close-up View of NOX's NAD(P)H Binding Domains vs the FNR Gold Standard" should be clarified.

      I found it difficult to understand. Is the different conformation of Phe397 creating the crevice? Could NADPH be modeled in NOX2 and DUOX in the same conformation observed in FNR and modeled in the bacterial NOX? Or would there be clashes, implying the necessity of larger conformational changes to bring the nicotinamide closer to the FAD?

      Please see responses above on this point; we have amended the text to clarify. In a few words, we propose that activation in the eukaryotic enzymes would entail NBD subdomain (containing NADPH site) towards the FBD subdomain (containing FAD) through an internal motion within the DH domain. Doing so, they would approach the DH domain topology of SpNOX, which models an active state.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      On p. 6, second line, it should be (Figure 1C and 1D). Space is missing between C and "and".

      On p. 9, in Figure 3, the labeling A and B are missing. Also, the legend of part B does not correspond to the actual graph colors. Thus, the tracing of F397W is red and not grey as indicated in the legend.

      Corrected. Thank you

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      In this work, the authors examine the activity and function of D1 and D2 MSNs in dorsomedial striatum (DMS) during an interval timing task. In this task, animals must first nose poke into a cued port on the left or right; if not rewarded after 6 seconds, they must switch to the other port. Critically, this task thus requires animals to estimate if at least 6 seconds have passed after the first nose poke - this is the key aspect of the task focused on here. After verifying that animals reliably estimate the passage of 6 seconds by leaving on average after 9 seconds, the authors examine striatal activity during this interval. They report that D1-MSNs tend to decrease activity, while D2-MSNs increase activity, throughout this interval. They suggest that this activity follows a drift-diffusion model, in which activity increases (or decreases) to a threshold after which a decision (to leave) is made. The authors next report that optogenetically inhibiting D1 or D2 MSNs, or pharmacologically blocking D1 and D2 receptors, increased the average wait time of the animals to 10 seconds on average. This suggests that both D1 and D2 neurons contribute to the estimate of time, with a decrease in their activity corresponding to a decrease in the rate of

      'drift' in their drift-diffusion model. Lastly, the authors examine MSN activity while pharmacologically inhibiting D1 or D2 receptors. The authors observe most recorded MSNs neurons decrease their activity over the interval, with the rate decreasing with D1/D2 receptor inhibition. 

      Major strengths: 

      The study employs a wide range of techniques - including animal behavioral training, electrophysiology, optogenetic manipulation, pharmacological manipulations, and computational modeling. The behavioral task used by the authors is quite interesting and a nice way to probe interval timing in rodents. The question posed by the authors - how striatal activity contributes to interval timing - is of importance to the field and has been the focus of many studies and labs; thus, this paper can meaningfully contribute to that conversation. The data within the paper is presented very clearly, and the authors have done a nice job presenting the data in a transparent manner (e.g., showing individual cells and animals). Overall, the manuscript is relatively easy to read and clear, with sufficient detail given in most places regarding the experimental paradigm or analyses used. 

      We are glad our main points came through to the reviewer.  

      Major weaknesses: 

      I perceive two major weaknesses. The first is the impact or contextualization of their results in terms of the results of the field more broadly. More specifically, it was not clear to me how the authors are interpreting the striatal activity in the context of what others have observed during interval timing tasks. In other words - what was the hypothesis going into this experiment? Does observing increasing/decreasing activity in D2 versus D1 support one model of interval timing over another, or does it further support a more specific idea of how DMS contributes to interval timing? Or was the main question that we didn't know if D2 or D1 neurons had differential activity during interval timing? 

      This is a helpful comment. Our hypothesis is that D1 and D2 MSNs had similar patterns of activity.  Our rationale is prior behavioral work from our group describing that blocking striatal D1 and D2 dopamine receptors had similar behavioral effects on interval timing (De Corte et al., 2019; Stutt et al., 2023), We rewrote our introduction with this idea in mind (Line 89)

      “We and others have found that striatal MSNs encode time across multiple intervals by time-dependent ramping activity or monotonic changes in firing rate across a temporal interval (Emmons et al., 2017; Gouvea et al., 2015; Mello et al., 2015; Wang et al., 2018). However, the respective roles of D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs are unknown. Past work has shown that disrupting either D2-dopamine receptors (D2) or D1-dopamine receptors (D1) powerfully impairs interval timing by increasing estimates of elapsed time (Drew et al., 2007; Meck, 2006). Similar behavioral effects were found with systemic (Stutt et al., 2024) or local dorsomedial striatal D2 or D1 disruption (De Corte et al., 2019a). These data lead to the hypothesis that D2 MSNs and D1 MSNs have similar patterns of ramping activity across a temporal interval. 

      We tested this hypothesis with a combination of optogenetics, neuronal ensemble recording, computational modeling, and behavioral pharmacology. We use a well-described mouse-optimized interval timing task (Balci et al., 2008; Bruce et al., 2021; Larson et al., 2022; Stutt et al., 2024; Tosun et al., 2016; Weber et al., 2023). Strikingly, optogenetic tagging of D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs revealed distinct neuronal dynamics, with D2-MSNs tending to increase firing over an interval and D1-MSNs tending to decrease firing over the same interval, similar to opposing movement dynamics (Cruz et al., 2022; Kravitz et al., 2010; Tecuapetla et al., 2016). MSN dynamics helped construct and constrain a four-parameter drift-diffusion computational model of interval timing, which predicted that disrupting either D2MSNs or D1-MSNs would increase interval timing response times. Accordingly, we found that optogenetic inhibition of either D2-MSNs or D1-MSNs increased interval timing response times. Furthermore, pharmacological blockade of either D2- or D1receptors also increased response times and degraded trial-by-trial temporal decoding from MSN ensembles. Thus, D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs have opposing temporal dynamics yet disrupting either MSN type produced similar effects on behavior. These data demonstrate how striatal pathways play complementary roles in elementary cognitive operations and are highly relevant for understanding the pathophysiology of human diseases and therapies targeting the striatum.”

      In the second, I felt that some of the conclusions suggested by the authors don't seem entirely supported by the data they present, or the data presented suggests a slightly more complicated story. Below I provide additional detail on some of these instances. 

      Regarding the results presented in Figures 2 and 3: 

      I am not sure the PC analysis adds much to the interpretation, and potentially unnecessarily complicates things. In particular, running PCA on a matrix of noisy data that is smoothed with a Gaussian will often return PCs similar to what is observed by the authors, with the first PC being a line up/down, the 2nd PC being a parabola that is up/down, etc. Thus, I'm not sure that there is much to be interpreted by the specific shape of the PCs here. 

      We are glad the reviewer raised this point. First, regarding the components in noisy data, what the reviewer says is correct, but usually, the variance explained by PC1 is small. This is the reason we include scree plots in our PC analysis (Fig 3B and Fig 6G). When we compare our PC1s to variance explained in random data, our PC1 variance is always stronger. We have now included this in our manuscript:

      First, we generated random data and examined how much variance PC1 might generate. 

      We added this to the methods (Line 634)

      “The variance of PC1 was empirically compared against data generated from 1000 iterations of data from random timestamps with identical bins and kernel density estimates. Average plots were shown with Gaussian smoothing for plotting purposes only.”

      These data suggested that our PC1 was stronger than that observed in random data (Line 183):

      “PCA identified time-dependent ramping activity as PC1 (Fig 3A), a key temporal signal that explained 54% of variance among tagged MSNs (Fig 3B; variance for PC1 p = 0.009 vs 46 (44-49)% variance for PC1 derived from random data; Narayanan, 2016).”

      And in the pharmacology data (Line 367):

      “The first component (PC1), which explained 54% of neuronal variance, exhibited “time-dependent ramping”, or monotonic changes over the 6 second interval immediately after trial start (Fig 6F-G; variance for PC1 p = 0.001 vs 46 (45-47)% variance in random data; Narayanan, 2016).”

      Second, we note that we have used this analysis extensively in the past, and PC1 has always been identified as a linear ramping in our work and in work by others (Line 179):

      “Work by our group and others has uniformly identified PC1 as a linear component among corticostriatal neuronal ensembles during interval timing (Bruce et al., 2021; Emmons et al., 2020, 2019, 2017; Kim et al., 2017a; Narayanan et al., 2013; Narayanan and Laubach, 2009; Parker et al., 2014; Wang et al., 2018).”

      Third, we find that PC1 is highly correlated to the GLM slope (Line 205):

      “Trial-by-trial GLM slope was correlated with PC1 scores in Fig 3A-C (PC1 scores vs. GLM slope r = -0.60, p = 10-8).”

      Fourth, our goal was not to heavily interpret PC1 – but to compare D1 vs. D2 MSNs, or compare population responses to D2/D1 pharmacology. We have now made this clear in introducing PCA analyses in the results (Line 177):

      “To quantify differences in D2-MSNs vs D1-MSNs, we turned to principal component analysis (PCA), a data-driven tool to capture the diversity of neuronal activity (Kim et al., 2017a).”

      Finally, despite these arguments the reviewer’s point is well taken. Accordingly, we have removed all analyses of PC2 from the manuscript which may have been overly interpretative. 

      We have now removed language that interpreted the components, and we now find the discussion of PC1 much more data-driven. We have also removed much of the advanced PC analysis in Figure S9. Given our extensive past work using this exact analysis of PC1, we think PCA adds a considerable amount to our manuscript justified as the reviewer suggested. 

      I think an alternative analysis that might be both easier and more informative is to compute the slope of the activity of each neuron across the 6 seconds. This would allow the authors to quantify how many neurons increase or decrease their activity much like what is shown in Figure 2.  

      We agree – we now do exactly this analysis in Figure 3D. We now clarify this in detail, using the reviewer’s language to the methods (Line 648):

      “To measure time-related ramping over the first 6 seconds of the interval, we used trial-by-trial generalized linear models (GLMs) at the individual neuron level in which the response variable was firing rate and the predictor variable was time in the interval or nosepoke rate (Shimazaki and Shinomoto, 2007). For each neuron, it’s time-related “ramping” slope was derived from the GLM fit of firing rate vs time in the interval, for all trials per neuron. All GLMs were run at a trial-by-trial level to avoid effects of trial averaging (Latimer et al., 2015) as in our past work (Bruce et al., 2021; Emmons et al., 2017; Kim et al., 2017b).”

      And to the results (Line 194):

      “To interrogate these dynamics at a trial-by-trial level, we calculated the linear slope of D2-MSN and D1-MSN activity over the first 6 seconds of each trial using generalized linear modeling (GLM) of effects of time in the interval vs trial-by-trial firing rate (Latimer et al., 2015).”

      Relatedly, it seems that the data shown in Figure 2D *doesn't* support the authors' main claim regarding D2/D1 MSNs increasing/decreasing their activity, as the trial-by-trial slope is near 0 for both cell types. 

      This likely refers to Figure 3D. The reviewer is correct that the changes in slope are small and near 0. Our goal was to show that D2-MSN and D1-MSN slopes were distinct – rather than increasing and decreasing. We have added this to the abstract (Line 46)

      “We found that D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs exhibited distinct dynamics over temporal intervals as quantified by principal component analyses and trial-by-trial generalized linear models.”

      We have clarified this idea in our hypothesis (Line 96):

      “These data led to the hypothesis that D2 MSNs and D1 MSNs have similar patterns of ramping activity across a temporal interval.”

      We have added this idea to the results (Line 194)

      “To interrogate these dynamics at a trial-by-trial level, we calculated the linear slope of D2-MSN and D1-MSN activity over the first 6 seconds of each trial using generalized linear modeling (GLM) of effects of time in the interval vs trial-by-trial firing rate (Latimer et al., 2015). Nosepokes were included as a regressor for movement. GLM analysis also demonstrated that D2-MSNs had significantly different slopes (-0.01 spikes/second (-0.10 – 0.10)), which were distinct from D1MSNs (-0.20 (-0.47– -0.06; Fig 3D; F = 8.9, p = 0.004 accounting for variance between mice (Fig S3B); Cohen’s d = 0.8; power = 0.98; no reliable effect of sex (F = 0.02, p = 0.88) or switching direction (F = 1.72, p = 0.19)). We found that D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs had significantly different slopes even when excluding outliers (4 outliers excluded outside of 95% confidence intervals; F = 7.51, p = 0.008 accounting for variance between mice) and when the interval was defined as the time between trial start and the switch response on a trial-by-trial basis for each neuron (F = 4.3, p = 0.04 accounting for variance between mice). Trial-by-trial GLM slope was correlated with PC1 scores in Fig 3A-C (PC1 scores vs. GLM slope r = -0.60, p = 108). These data demonstrate that D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs had distinct slopes of firing rate across the interval and were consistent with analyses of average activity and PC1, which exhibited time-related ramping.”

      And Line 215:

      “In summary, we used optogenetic tagging to record from D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs during interval timing. Analyses of average activity, PC1, and trial-by-trial firingrate slopes over the interval provide convergent evidence that D2-MSNs and D1MSNs had distinct and opposing dynamics during interval timing. These data provide insight into temporal processing by striatal MSNs.”

      And in the discussion (Line 415):

      “We describe how striatal MSNs work together in complementary ways to encode an elementary cognitive process, interval timing. Strikingly, optogenetic tagging showed that D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs had distinct dynamics during interval timing. “

      We have now included a new plot with box plots to make the differences in Figure 3D clear

      Other reviewers requested additional qualitative descriptions of our data, and we have referred to increases / decreases in this context. 

      Regarding the results in Figure 4: 

      The authors suggest that their data is consistent with a drift-diffusion model. However, it is unclear how well the output from the model fits the activity from neurons the authors recorded. Relatedly, it is unclear how the parameters were chosen for the D1/D2 versions of this model. I think that an alternate approach that would answer these questions is to fit the model to each cell, and then examine the best-fit parameters, as well as the ability of the model to predict activity on trials held out from the fitting process. This would provide a more rigorous method to identify the best parameters and would directly quantify how well the model captures the data. 

      We are glad the reviewer raised these points. Our goal was to use neuronal activity to fit behavioral activity, not the reverse. While we understand the reviewer’s point, we note that one behavioral output (switch time) can be encoded by many patterns of neuronal activity; thus, we are not sure we can use the model developed for behavior to fit diverse neuronal activity, or an ensemble of neurons. We have made this clear in the manuscript (Line 251):

      “Our model aimed to fit statistical properties of mouse behavioral responses while incorporating MSN network dynamics. However, the model does not attempt to fit individual neurons’ activity, because our model predicts a single behavioral parameter – switch time – that can be caused by the aggregation of diverse neuronal activity.”

      To attempt to do something close to what the reviewer suggested, we attempted to predict behavior directly from neuronal ensembles.  We have now made this clear in the methods on Line 682):

      “Analysis and modeling of mouse MSN-ensemble recordings. Our preliminary analysis found that, for sufficiently large number of neurons (𝑵 > 𝟏𝟏), each recorded ensemble of MSNs on a trial-by-trial basis could predict when mice would respond. We took the following approach: First, for each MSN, we convolved its trial-by-trial spike train 𝑺𝒑𝒌(𝒕) with a 1-second exponential kernel 𝑲(𝒕) = 𝒘 𝒆-𝒕/𝒘 if 𝒕 > 𝟎 and 𝑲(𝒕) = 𝟎 if 𝒕 ≤ 𝟎 (Zhou et al., 2018; here 𝒘 = 𝟏 𝒔). Therefore, the smoothed, convolved spiking activity of neuron 𝒋 (𝒋 = 𝟏, 𝟐, … 𝑵),

      tracks and accumulates the most recent (one second, in average) firing-rate history of the 𝒋-th MSN, up to moment 𝒕. We hypothesized that the ensemble activity

      (𝒙𝟏(𝒕), 𝒙𝟐(𝒕), … , 𝒙𝑵(𝒕)), weighted with some weights 𝜷𝒋 , could predict the trial switch time 𝒕∗ by considering the sum

      and the sigmoid 

      that approximates the firing rate of an output unit. Here parameter 𝒌   indicates how fast 𝒙(𝒕) crosses the threshold 0.5 coming from below (if 𝒌 > 𝟎) or coming from above (if 𝒌 < 𝟎) and relates the weights 𝜷𝒋 to the unknowns 𝜷H𝒋 \= 𝜷𝒋/𝒌 and 𝜷H𝟎 \= −𝟎. 𝟓/𝒌. Next, we ran a logistic fit for every trial for a given mouse over the spike count predictor matrix 7𝒙𝟏(𝒕), 𝒙𝟐(𝒕), … , 𝒙𝑵(𝒕)9 from the mouse MSN recorded ensemble, and observed value 𝒕∗, estimating the coefficients 𝜷H𝟎 and 𝜷H𝒋, and so, implicitly, the weights 𝜷𝒋. From there, we compute the predicted switch time 𝒕∗𝒑𝒓𝒆𝒅 by condition 𝒙(𝒕) = 𝟎. 𝟓. Accuracy was quantified comparing the predicted accuracy within a 1 second window to switch time on a trial-by-trial basis (Fig S4).

      And in the results (Line 254): 

      We first analyzed trial-based aggregated activity of MSN recordings from each mouse (𝒙𝒋(𝒕)) where 𝒋 = 𝟏, … , 𝑵 neurons. For D2-MSN or D1-MSN ensembles of 𝑵 > 𝟏𝟏, we found linear combinations of their neuronal activities, with some 𝜷𝒋 coefficients,

      that could predict the trial-by-trial switch response times (accuracy > 90%, Fig S4; compared with < 20% accuracy for Poisson-generated spikes of same trial-average firing rate). The predicted switch time 𝒕∗𝒑𝒓𝒆𝒅 was defined by the time when the weighted ensemble activity 𝒙(𝒕) first reached the value 𝒙) = 0.5. Finally, we built DDMs to account for this opposing trend (increasing vs decreasing) of MSN dynamics and for ensemble threshold behavior defining 𝒕∗𝒑𝒓𝒆𝒅; see the resulting model (Equations 1-3) and its simulations (Figure 4A-B).”

      And we have added a new figure, Figure S4, that demonstrates these trial-by-trial predictions of switch response times.  

      Note that we have included predictions from shuffled data similar to what the reviewer suggested based on shuffled data. Predictions are derived from neuronal ensembles on that trial; thus we could not apply a leave-one-out approach to trial-by-trial predictions.

      These models are highly predictive for larger ensembles and poorly predictive for smaller ensembles.  We think this model adds to the manuscript and we are glad the reviewer suggested it. 

      Relatedly, looking at the raw data in Figure 2, it seems that many neurons either fire at the beginning or end of the interval, with more neurons firing at the end, and more firing at the beginning, for D2/D1 neurons respectively. Thus, it's not clear to me whether the drift-diffusion model is a good model of activity. Or, perhaps the model is supposed to be related to the aggregate activity of all D1/D2 neurons? (If so, this should be made more explicit. The comment about fitting the model directly to the data also still stands).  

      Our model was inspired by the aggregate activity.  We have now made this clear in the results (Line 227): 

      “Our data demonstrate that D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs have opposite activity patterns. However, past computational models of interval timing have relied on drift-diffusion dynamics with a positive slope that accumulates evidence over time (Nguyen et al., 2020; Simen et al., 2011). To reconcile how these MSNs might complement to effect temporal control of action, we constructed a four-parameter drift-diffusion model (DDM). Our goal was to construct a DDM inspired by average differences in D2MSNs and D1-MSNs that predicted switch-response time behavior.”

      Further, it's unclear to me how, or why, the authors changed the specific parameters they used to model the optogenetic manipulation. Were these parameters chosen because they fit the manipulation data? This I don't think is in itself an issue, but perhaps should be clearly stated, because otherwise it sounds a bit odd given the parameter changes are so specific. It is also not clear to me why the noise in the diffusion process would be expected to change with increased inhibition. 

      We have clarified that our parameters were chosen to best fit behavior (Line 266):

      “The model’s parameters were chosen to fit the distribution of switch-response times:

      𝑭 = 𝟏, 𝒃 = 𝟎. 𝟓𝟐 (so 𝑻 = 𝟎. 𝟖𝟕), 𝑫 = 𝟎. 𝟏𝟑𝟓, 𝝈 = 𝟎. 𝟎𝟓𝟐 for intact D2-MSNs (Fig 4A, in black); and  𝑭 = 𝟎, 𝒃 = 𝟎. 𝟒𝟖 (so 𝑻 = 𝟎. 𝟏𝟑), 𝑫 = 𝟎. 𝟏𝟒𝟏, 𝝈 = 𝟎. 𝟎𝟓𝟐 for intact D1-MSNs (Fig 4B, in black).”

      Furthermore, we have clarified the approach to noise in the results (Line 247):  

      “The drift, together with noise 𝝃(𝒕) (of zero mean and strength 𝝈), leads to fluctuating accumulation which eventually crosses a threshold 𝑻 (see Equation 3; Fig 4A-B).”

      And Line 279: 

      “The results were obtained by simultaneously decreasing the drift rate D  (equivalent to lengthening the neurons’ integration time constant) and lowering the level of network noise 𝝈: D = 𝟎. 𝟏𝟐𝟗, 𝝈 = 𝟎. 𝟎𝟒𝟑 for D2-MSNs in Fig 4A (in red; changes in noise had to accompany changes in drift rate to preserve switch response time variance); and 𝑫 = 𝟎. 𝟏𝟐𝟐, 𝝈 = 𝟎. 𝟎𝟒𝟑  for D1-MSNs in Fig 4B (in blue). The model predicted that disrupting either D2-MSNs or D1-MSNs would increase switch response times (Fig 4C and Fig 4D) and would shift MSN dynamics.”

      Regarding the results in Figure 6: 

      My comments regarding the interpretation of PCs in Figure 2 apply here as well. In addition, I am not sure that examining PC2 adds much here, given that the authors didn't examine such nonlinear changes earlier in the paper. 

      We agree – we removed PC2 for these reasons. We have also noted that the primary reason for PC1 was to compare results of D2/D1 blockade (Line 362):

      “We noticed differences in MSN activity across the interval with D2 blockade and D1 blockade at the individual MSN level (Fig 6B-D) as well as at the population level (Fig 6E). We used PCA to quantify effects of D2 blockade or D1 blockade (Bruce et al., 2021; Emmons et al., 2017; Kim et al., 2017a). We constructed principal components (PC) from z-scored peri-event time histograms of firing rate from saline, D2 blockade, and D1 blockade sessions for all mice together. The first component (PC1), which explained 54% of neuronal variance, exhibited “timedependent ramping”, or monotonic changes over the 6 second interval immediately after trial start (Fig 6F-G; variance for PC1 p = 0.001 vs 46 (45-47)% variance in random data; Narayanan, 2016).”

      As noted above, PC1 does not explain this level of variance in noisy data.

      We also reworked Figure 6 to make the effects of D2 and D1 blockade more apparent by moving the matched sorting to the main figure: 

      A larger concern though that seems potentially at odds with the authors' interpretation is that there seems to be very little change in the firing pattern after D1 or D2 blockade. I see that in Figure 6F the authors suggest that many cells slope down (and thus, presumably, they are recoding more D1 cells), and that this change in slope is decreased, but this effect is not apparent in Figure 6C, and Figure 6B shows an example of a cell that seems to fire in the opposite direction (increase activity). I think it would help to show some (more) individual examples that demonstrate the summary effect shown by the authors, and perhaps the authors can comment on the robustness (or the variability) of this result. 

      These are important suggestions, we changed our analysis to better capture the variability and main effects in the data, exactly as the reviewer suggested. First, we now included 3 individual raster examples, exactly as the reviewer suggested

      As the reviewer suggested, we wanted to compare variability for *all* MSNs. We sorted the same MSNs across saline, D2 blockade, and D1 blockade sessions. We detailed these sorting details in the methods (Line 618):

      “Single-unit recordings were made using a multi-electrode recording system (Open

      Ephys, Atlanta, GA). After the experiments, Plexon Offline Sorter (Plexon, Dallas, TX), was used to remove artifacts. Principal component analysis (PCA) and waveform shape were used for spike sorting. Single units were defined as those 1) having a consistent waveform shape, 2) being a separable cluster in PCA space, and 3) having a consistent refractory period of at least 2 milliseconds in interspike interval histograms. The same MSNs were sorted across saline, D2 blockade, and D1 blockade sessions by loading all sessions simultaneously in Offline Sorter and sorted using the preceding criteria. MSNs had to have consistent firing in all sessions to be included. Sorting integrity across sessions was quantified by comparing waveform similarity via correlation coefficients between sessions.”

      To confirm that we were able to track neurons across sessions, we quantified waveform similarity (Line 353):

      “We analyzed 99 MSNs in sessions with saline, D2 blockade, and D1 blockade. We matched MSNs across sessions based on waveform and interspike intervals; waveforms were highly similar across sessions (correlation coefficient between matched MSN waveforms: saline vs D2 blockade r = 1.00 (0.99 – 1.00 rank sum vs correlations in unmatched waveforms p = 3x10-44; waveforms; saline vs D1 blockade r = 1.00 (1.00 – 1.00), rank sum vs correlations in unmatched waveforms p = 4x10-50). There were no consistent changes in MSN average firing rate with D2 blockade or D1 blockade (F = 1.1, p = 0.30 accounting for variance between MSNs; saline: 5.2 (3.3 – 8.6) Hz; D2 blockade 5.1 (2.7 – 8.0) Hz; F = 2.2, p = 0.14; D1 blockade 4.9 (2.4 – 7.8) Hz).”

      As noted above, this enabled us to compare activity for the same MSNs across sessions in a new Figure 6 (previously, this analysis had been in Figure S9), and used PCA to quantify this variability.

      By tracking neurons across saline, D2 blockade, and D1 blockade, readers can see all the variability in MSNs. We added these data to the results (Line 362):  

      “We noticed differences in MSN activity across the interval with D2 blockade and D1 blockade at the individual MSN level (Fig 6B-D) as well as at the population level (Fig 6E). We used PCA to quantify effects of D2 blockade or D1 blockade (Bruce et al., 2021; Emmons et al., 2017; Kim et al., 2017a). We constructed principal components (PC) from z-scored peri-event time histograms of firing rate from saline, D2 blockade, and D1 blockade sessions for all mice together. The first component (PC1), which explained 54% of neuronal variance, exhibited “timedependent ramping”, or monotonic changes over the 6 second interval immediately after trial start (Fig 6F-G; variance for PC1 p = 0.001 vs 46 (45-47)% variance in random data; Narayanan, 2016). Interestingly, PC1 scores shifted with D2 blockade (Fig 6F; PC1 scores for D2 blockade: -0.6 (-3.8 – 4.7) vs saline: -2.3 (-4.2 – 3.2), F = 5.1, p = 0.03 accounting for variance between MSNs; no reliable effect of sex (F = 0.2, p = 0.63) or switching direction (F = 2.8, p = 0.10)). PC1 scores also shifted with D1 blockade (Fig 6F; PC1 scores for D1 blockade: -0.0 (-3.9 – 4.5), F = 5.8, p = 0.02 accounting for variance between MSNs; no reliable effect of sex (F = 0.0, p = 0.93) or switching direction (F = 0.9, p = 0.34)). There were no reliable differences in PC1 scores between D2 and D1 blockade. Furthermore, PC1 was distinct even when sessions were sorted independently and assumed to be fully statistically independent (Figure S10; D2 blockade vs saline: F = 5.8, p = 0.02; D1 blockade vs saline: F = 4.9, p = 0.03; all analyses accounting for variance between mice). Higher components explained less variance and were not reliably different between saline and D2 blockade or D1 blockade. Taken together, this data-driven analysis shows that D2 and D1 blockade produced similar shifts in MSN population dynamics represented by PC1. When combined with the major contributions of D1/D2 MSNs to PC1 (Fig 3C) these findings indicate that pharmacological D2 blockade and D1 blockade disrupt ramping-related activity in the striatum.”

      Finally, we included the data in which sessions were sorted independently and assumed to be fully statistically independent in a new Figure S10.

      And in the results (Line 376): 

      “Furthermore, PC1 was distinct even when sessions were sorted independently and assumed to be fully statistically independent (Figure S10; D2 blockade vs saline: F = 5.8, p = 0.02; D1 blockade vs saline: F = 4.9, p = 0.03; all analyses accounting for variance between mice). Higher components explained less variance and were not reliably different between saline and D2 blockade or D1 blockade.”

      These changes strengthen the manuscript and better show the main effects and variability of the data. 

      Regarding the results in Figure 7: 

      I am overall a bit confused about what the authors are trying to claim here. In Figure 7, they present data suggesting that D1 or D2 blockade disrupts their ability to decode time in the interval of interest (0-6 seconds). However, in the final paragraph of the results, the authors seem to say that by using another technique, they didn't see any significant change in decoding accuracy after D1 or D2 blockade. What do the authors make of this? 

      This was very unclear. The second classifier was predicting response time, but it was confusing, and we removed it. 

      Impact: 

      The task and data presented by the authors are very intriguing, and there are many groups interested in how striatal activity contributes to the neural perception of time. The authors perform a wide variety of experiments and analysis to examine how DMS activity influences time perception during an interval-timing task, allowing for insight into this process. However, the significance of the key finding - that D2/D1 activity increases/ decreases with time - remains somewhat ambiguous to me. This arises from a lack of clarity regarding the initial hypothesis and the implications of this finding for advancing our understanding of striatal functions. 

      As noted above, we clarified our hypothesis and implications, and strengthened several aspects of the data as suggested by this reviewer.  

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      In the present study, the authors investigated the neural coding mechanisms for D1- and D2expressing striatal direct and indirect pathway MSNs in interval timing by using multiple strategies. They concluded that D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs have opposing temporal dynamics yet disrupting either type produced similar effects on behavior, indicating the complementary roles of D1- and D2- MSNs in cognitive processing. However, the data was incomplete to fully support this major finding. One major reason is the heterogenetic responses within the D1-or D2MSN populations. In addition, there are additional concerns about the statistical methods used. For example, the majority of the statistical tests are based on the number of neurons, but not the number of mice. It appears that the statistical difference was due to the large sample size they used (n=32 D2-MSNs and n=41 D1-MSNs), but different neurons recorded in the same mouse cannot be treated as independent samples; they should use independent mouse-based statistical analysis. 

      Strengths: 

      The authors used multiple approaches including awake mice behavior training, optogeneticassistant cell-type specific recording, optogenetic or pharmacological manipulation, neural computation, and modeling to study neuronal coding for interval timing. 

      We appreciate the reviewer’s careful read recognizing the breadth of our approach.  

      Weaknesses: 

      (1) More detailed behavior results should be shown, including the rate of the success switches, and how long it takes to wait in the second nose poke to get a reward. For line 512 and the Figure 1 legend, the reviewer is not clear about the reward delivery. The methods appear to state that the mouse had to wait for 18s, then make nose pokes at the second port to get the reward. What happens if the mouse made the second nose poke before 18 seconds, but then exited? Would the mouse still get the reward at 18 seconds? Similarly, what happens if the mice made the third or more nosepokes within 18 seconds? It is important to clarify because, according to the method described, if the mice made a second nose poke before 18 seconds, this already counted as the mouse making the "switch." Lastly, what if the mice exited before 6s in the first nosepoke? 

      We completely agree. We have now completely revised Figure 1 to include many of these task details.

      We have clarified remaining details in the methods (Line 548):

      “Interval timing switch task. We used a mouse-optimized operant interval timing task described in detail previously (Balci et al., 2008; Bruce et al., 2021; Tosun et al., 2016; Weber et al., 2023). Briefly, mice were trained in sound-attenuating operant chambers, with two front nosepokes flanking either side of a food hopper on the front wall, and a third nosepoke located at the center of the back wall. The chamber was positioned below an 8-kHz, 72-dB speaker (Fig 1A; MedAssociates, St. Albans, VT). Mice were 85% food restricted and motivated with 20 mg sucrose pellets (BioServ, Flemington, NJ). Mice were initially trained to receive rewards during fixed ratio nosepoke response trials. Nosepoke entry and exit were captured by infrared beams. After shaping, mice were trained in the “switch” interval timing task. Mice self-initiated trials at the back nosepoke, after which tone and nosepoke lights were illuminated simultaneously. Cues were identical on all trial types and lasted the entire duration of the trial (6 or 18 seconds). On 50% of trials, mice were rewarded for a nosepoke after 6 seconds at the designated first ‘front’ nosepoke; these trials were not analyzed. On the remaining 50% of trials, mice were rewarded for nosepoking first at the ‘first’ nosepoke location and then switching to the ‘second’ nosepoke location; the reward was delivered for initial nosepokes at the second nosepoke location after 18 seconds when preceded by a nosepoke at the first nosepoke location.  Multiple nosepokes at each nosepokes were allowed. Early responses at the first or second nosepoke were not reinforced. Initial responses at the second nosepoke rather than the first nosepoke, alternating between nosepokes, going back to the first nosepoke after the second nosepoke were rare after initial training. Error trials included trials where animals responded only at the first or second nosepoke and were also not reinforced. We did not analyze error trials as they were often too few to analyze; these were analyzed at length in our prior work (Bruce et al., 2021).

      Switch response time was defined as the moment animals departed the first nosepoke before arriving at the second nosepoke. Critically, switch responses are a time-based decision guided by temporal control of action because mice switch nosepokes only if nosepokes at the first location did not receive a reward after 6 seconds. That is, mice estimate if more than 6 seconds have elapsed without receiving a reward to decide to switch responses. Mice learn this task quickly (3-4 weeks), and error trials in which an animal nosepokes in the wrong order or does not nosepoke are relatively rare and discarded. Consequently, we focused on these switch response times as the key metric for temporal control of action. Traversal time was defined as the duration between first nosepoke exit and second nosepoke entry and is distinct from switch response time when animals departed the first nosepoke. Nosepoke duration was defined as the time between first nosepoke entry and exit for the switch response times only. Trials were self-initiated, but there was an intertrial interval with a geometric mean of 30 seconds between trials.”

      And in the results on Line 131: 

      “We investigated cognitive processing in the striatum using a well-described mouseoptimized interval timing task which requires mice to respond by switching between two nosepokes after a 6-second interval (Fig 1A; see Methods; (Balci et al., 2008; Bruce et al., 2021; Larson et al., 2022; Tosun et al., 2016; Weber et al., 2023)). In this task, mice initiate trials by responding at a back nosepoke, which triggers auditory and visual cues for the duration of the trial. On 50% of trials, mice were rewarded for nosepoking after 6 seconds at the designated ‘first’ front nosepoke; these trials were not analyzed. On the remaining 50% of trials, mice were rewarded for nosepoking at the ‘first’ nosepoke and then switching to the ‘second’ nosepoke; initial nosepokes at the second nosepoke after 18 seconds triggered reward when preceded by a first nosepoke. The first nosepokes occurred before switching responses and the second nosepokes occurred much later in the interval in anticipation of reward delivery at 18 seconds (Fig 1B-D). During the task, movement velocity peaked before 6 seconds as mice traveled to the front nosepoke (Fig 1E).

      We focused on the switch response time, defined as the moment mice exited the first nosepoke before entering the second nosepoke. Switch responses are a timebased decision guided by temporal control of action because mice switch nosepokes only if nosepoking at the first nosepokes does not lead to a reward after 6 seconds (Fig 1B-E). Switch responses are guided by internal estimates of time because no external cue indicates when to switch from the first to the second nosepoke (Balci et al., 2008; Bruce et al., 2021; Tosun et al., 2016; Weber et al., 2023). We defined the first 6 seconds after trial start as the ‘interval’, because during this epoch mice are estimating whether 6 seconds have elapsed and if they need to switch responses. In 30 mice, switch response times were 9.3 seconds (8.4 – 9.7; median (IQR)); see Table 1 for a summary of mice, experiments, trials, and sessions). We studied dorsomedial striatal D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs using a combination of optogenetics and neuronal ensemble recordings in 9 transgenic mice (4 D2-Cre mice switch response time 9.7 (7.0 – 10.3) seconds; 5 D1-Cre mice switch response time 8.2 (7.7 – 8.7) seconds; rank sum p = 0.73; Table 1).”

      (2) There are a lot of time parameters in this behavior task, the description of those time parameters is mentioned in several parts, in the figure legend, supplementary figure legend, and methods, but was not defined clearly in the main text. It is inconvenient, sometimes, confusing for the readers. The authors should make a schematic diagram to illustrate the major parameters and describe them clearly in the main text. 

      We agree. We have clarified this in a new schematic, shading the interval in gray:   

      And in the results on line 131:

      “We focused on the switch response time, defined as the moment mice exited the first nosepoke before entering the second nosepoke. Switch responses are a time-based decision guided by temporal control of action because mice switch nosepokes only if nosepoking at the first nosepokes does not lead to a reward after 6 seconds (Fig 1BE). Switch responses are guided by internal estimates of time because no external cue indicates when to switch from the first to the second nosepoke (Balci et al., 2008; Bruce et al., 2021; Tosun et al., 2016; Weber et al., 2023). We defined the first 6 seconds after trial start as the ‘interval’, because during this epoch mice are estimating whether 6 seconds have elapsed and if they need to switch responses. In 30 mice, switch response times were 9.3 seconds (8.4 – 9.7; median (IQR)); see Table 1 for a summary of mice, experiments, trials, and sessions). We studied dorsomedial striatal D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs using a combination of optogenetics and neuronal ensemble recordings in 9 transgenic mice (4 D2-Cre mice switch response time 9.7

      (7.0 – 10.3) seconds; 5 D1-Cre mice switch response time 8.2 (7.7 – 8.7) seconds; rank sum p = 0.73; Table 1).”

      (3) In Line 508, the reviewer suggests the authors pay attention to those trials without "switch". It would be valuable to compare the MSN activity between those trials with or without a "switch". 

      This is a great suggestion. We analyzed such error trials and MSN activity in Figure 6 of Bruce et al., 2021. However, this manuscript was not designed to analyze errors, as they are rare beyond initial training (Bruce et al., 2021 focused on early training), and too inconsistent to permit robust analysis. This was added to the methods on Line 567:

      “Early responses at the first or second nosepoke were not reinforced. Initial responses at the second nosepoke rather than the first nosepoke, alternating between nosepokes, going back to the first nosepoke after the second nosepoke were rare after initial training. Error trials included trials where animals responded only at the first or second nosepoke and were also not reinforced. We did not analyze error trials as they were often too few to analyze; these were analyzed at length in our prior work (Bruce et al., 2021).”

      (4) The definition of interval is not very clear. It appears that the authors used a 6-second interval in analyzing the data in Figure 2 and Figure 3. But from my understanding, the interval should be the time from time "0" to the "switch", when the mice start to exit from the first nose poke. 

      We have now defined it explicitly in the schematic: 

      Incidentally, this reviewer asked us to analyze a longer epoch – this analysis beautifully justifies our focus on the first 6 seconds (now in Figure S2).

      We focus on the first six seconds as there are few nosepokes and switch responses during this epoch; however, we consider the reviewer’s definition and analyze the epoch the reviewer suggests from 0 to the switch in analyses below. 

      (5) For Figure 2 C-F, the authors only recorded 32 D2-MSNs in 4 mice, and 41 D1-MSNs in 5 mice. The sample size is too small compared to the sample size usually used in the field. In addition to the small sample size, the single-cell activity exhibited heterogeneity, which created potential issues. 

      We are glad the reviewer raised these points. First, our tagging dataset is relatively standard for optogenetic tagging. Second, we now include Cohen’s d for both PC and slope results for all optogenetic tagging analysis, which demonstrate that we have adequate statistical power and medium-to-large effect sizes (Line 186): 

      “In line with population averages from Fig 2G&H, D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs had opposite patterns of activity with negative PC1 scores for D2-MSNs and positive PC1 scores for D1-MSNs (Fig 3C; PC1 for D2-MSNs: -3.4 (-4.6 – 2.5); PC1 for D1MSNs: 2.8 (-2.8 – 4.9); F = 8.8, p = 0.004 accounting for variance between mice (Fig S3A); Cohen’s d = 0.7; power = 0.80; no reliable effect of sex (F = 0.44, p = 0.51) or switching direction (F = 1.73, p = 0.19)).”

      And Line 197:

      “GLM analysis also demonstrated that D2-MSNs had significantly different slopes (0.01 spikes/second (-0.10 – 0.10)), which were distinct from D1-MSNs (-0.20 (-0.47– 0.06; Fig 3D; F = 8.9, p = 0.004 accounting for variance between mice (Fig S3B); Cohen’s d = 0.8; power = 0.98; no reliable effect of sex (F = 0.02, p = 0.88) or switching direction (F = 1.72, p = 0.19)).”

      We added boxplots to Figure 3, which better highlight differences in these distributions.

      However, the reviewer’s point is well-taken, and we have added a caveat to the discussion exactly as the reviewer suggested (Line 496):

      “Second, although we had adequate statistical power and medium-to-large effect sizes, optogenetic tagging is low-yield, and it is possible that recording more of these neurons would afford greater opportunity to identify more robust results and alternative coding schemes, such as neuronal synchrony.”

      For both D1 and D2 MSNs, the authors tried to make conclusions on the "trend" of increasing in D2-MSNs and decreasing in D1-MSNs populations, respectively, during the interval. However, such a conclusion is not sufficiently supported by the data presented. It looks like the single-cell activity patterns can be separated into groups: one is a decreasing activity group, one is an increasing activity group and a small group for on and off response. Because of the small sample size, the author should pay attention to the variance across different mice (which needs to be clearly presented in the manuscript), instead of pooling data together and analyzing the mean activity. 

      We were not clear – we now do exactly as the reviewer suggested. We are not pooling any data – instead – as we state on line 620 - we are using linear-mixed effects models to account for mouse-specific and neuron-specific variance. This approach was developed with our statistics core for exactly the reasons the reviewer suggested (see letter). We state this explicitly in the methods (Line 704):

      “Statistics. All data and statistical approaches were reviewed by the Biostatistics,

      Epidemiology, and Research Design Core (BERD) at the Institute for Clinical and Translational Sciences (ICTS) at the University of Iowa. All code and data are made available at http://narayanan.lab.uiowa.edu/article/datasets. We used the median to measure central tendency and the interquartile range to measure spread. We used Wilcoxon nonparametric tests to compare behavior between experimental conditions and Cohen’s d to calculate effect size. Analyses of putative single-unit activity and basic physiological properties were carried out using custom routines for MATLAB.

      For all neuronal analyses, variability between animals was accounted for using generalized linear-mixed effects models and incorporating a random effect for each mouse into the model, which allows us to account for inherent between-mouse variability. We used fitglme in MATLAB and verified main effects using lmer in R. We accounted for variability between MSNs in pharmacological datasets in which we could match MSNs between saline, D2 blockade, and D1 blockade. P values < 0.05 were interpreted as significant.”

      We have now stated in the results that we are explicitly accounting for variance between mice (Line 186): 

      “In line with population averages from Fig 2G&H, D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs had opposite patterns of activity with negative PC1 scores for D2-MSNs and positive PC1 scores for D1-MSNs (Fig 3C; PC1 for D2-MSNs: -3.4 (-4.6 – 2.5); PC1 for D1MSNs: 2.8 (-2.8 – 4.9); F = 8.8, p = 0.004 accounting for variance between mice (Fig S3A); Cohen’s d = 0.7; power = 0.80; no reliable effect of sex (F = 0.44, p = 0.51) or switching direction (F = 1.73, p = 0.19)).”

      And on Line 197:

      “GLM analysis also demonstrated that D2-MSNs had significantly different slopes (0.01 spikes/second (-0.10 – 0.10)), which were distinct from D1-MSNs (-0.20 (-0.47– 0.06; Fig 3D; F = 8.9, p = 0.004 accounting for variance between mice (Fig S3B); Cohen’s d = 0.8; power = 0.98; no reliable effect of sex (F = 0.02, p = 0.88) or switching direction (F = 1.72, p = 0.19)).”

      All statistics in the manuscript now explicitly account for variance between mice. 

      This is the approach that was recommended by our the Biostatistics, Epidemiology, and

      Research Design Core (BERD) at the Institute for Clinical and Translational Sciences (ICTS) at the University of Iowa, who reviews all of our work.

      We note that these Cohen d values usually interpret as medium or large. 

      We performed statistical power calculations and include these to aid readers’ interpretation. These are all >0.8. 

      Finally, the reviewer uses the word ‘trend’. We define p values <0.05 as significant in the methods, and do not interpret trends (on line 717): 

      “P values < 0.05 were interpreted as significant.”

      And, we have now plotted values for each mouse in a new Figure S3.

      As noted in the figure legend, mouse-specific effects were analyzed using linear models that account for between-mouse variability, as discussed with our statisticians. However, the reviewer’s point is well taken, and we have added this idea to the discussion as suggested (Line 496):

      “Second, although we had adequate statistical power and medium-to-large effect sizes, optogenetic tagging is low-yield, and it is possible that recording more of these neurons would afford greater opportunity to identify more robust results and alternative coding schemes, such as neuronal synchrony.”

      (6) For Figure 2, from the activity in E and F, it seems that the activity already rose before the trial started, the authors should add some longer baseline data before time zero for clarification and comparison and show the timing of the actual start of the activity with the corresponding behavior. What behavior states are the mice in when initiating the activity? 

      This is a key point. First, we are not certain what state the animal is in until they initiate trials at the back nosepoke (“Start”). Therefore, we cannot analyze this epoch.  

      However, we can show neuronal activity during a longer epoch exactly as the reviewer suggested. Although there are modulations, the biggest difference between D2 and D1 MSNs is during the 0-6 second interval. This analysis supports our focus on the 0-6 second interval. We have included this as a new Figure S2.

      (7) The authors were focused on the "switch " behavior in the task, but they used an arbitrary 6s time window to analyze the activity, and tried to correlate the decreasing or increasing activities of MSNs to the neural coding for time. A better way to analyze is to sort the activity according to the "switch" time, from short to long intervals. This way, the authors could see and analyze whether the activity of D1 or D2 MSNs really codes for the different length of interval, instead of finding a correlation between average activity trends and the arbitrary 6s time window. 

      This is a great suggestion. We did exactly this and adjusted our linear models on a trialby-trial basis to account for time between the start of the interval and the switch. This is now added to the methods (line 656): 

      “We performed additional sensitivity analysis excluding outliers and measuring firing rate from the start of the interval to the time of the switch response on a trialby-trial level for each neuron.”

      And to the results (Line 201):

      “We found that D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs had a significantly different slope even when excluding outliers (4 outliers excluded outside of 95% confidence intervals; F=7.51, p=0.008 accounting for variance between mice) and when the interval was defined as the time between trial start and the switch response on a trial-by-trial basis for each neuron (F=4.3, p=0.04 accounting for variance between mice).”

      We now state our justification for focusing on the first 6 seconds of the interval (Line 134)

      “Switch responses are guided by internal estimates of time and temporal control of action because no external cue indicates when to switch from the first to the second nosepoke (Balci et al., 2008; Bruce et al., 2021; Tosun et al., 2016; Weber et al., 2023). We defined the first 6 seconds after trial start as the ‘interval’, because during this epoch mice are estimating whether 6 seconds have elapsed and if they need to switch responses.”

      As noted previously, epoch is now justified by Figure S2E.

      And we note that this focus minimizes motor confounds (Line 511):

      “Four lines of evidence argue that our findings cannot be directly explained by motor confounds: 1) D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs diverge between 0-6 seconds after trial start well before the first nosepoke (Fig S2), 2) our GLM accounted for nosepokes and nosepoke-related βs were similar between D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs, 3) optogenetic disruption of dorsomedial D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs did not change task-specific movements despite reliable changes in switch response time, and 4) ramping dynamics were quite distinct from movement dynamics. Furthermore, disrupting D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs did not change the number of rewards animals received, implying that these disruptions did not grossly affect motivation. Still, future work combining motion tracking with neuronal ensemble recording and optogenetics and including bisection tasks may further unravel timing vs. movement in MSN dynamics (Robbe, 2023).”

      We are glad the reviewer suggested this analysis as it strengthens our manuscript.  

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      The cognitive striatum, also known as the dorsomedial striatum, receives input from brain regions involved in high-level cognition and plays a crucial role in processing cognitive information. However, despite its importance, the extent to which different projection pathways of the striatum contribute to this information processing remains unclear. In this paper, Bruce et al. conducted a study using a range of causal and correlational techniques to investigate how these pathways collectively contribute to interval timing in mice. Their results were consistent with previous research, showing that the direct and indirect striatal pathways perform opposing roles in processing elapsed time. Based on their findings, the authors proposed a revised computational model in which two separate accumulators track evidence for elapsed time in opposing directions. These results have significant implications for understanding the neural mechanisms underlying cognitive impairment in neurological and psychiatric disorders, as disruptions in the balance between direct and indirect pathway activity are commonly observed in such conditions. 

      Strengths: 

      The authors employed a well-established approach to study interval timing and employed optogenetic tagging to observe the behavior of specific cell types in the striatum. Additionally, the authors utilized two complementary techniques to assess the impact of manipulating the activity of these pathways on behavior. Finally, the authors utilized their experimental findings to enhance the theoretical comprehension of interval timing using a computational model. 

      We are grateful for the reviewer’s consideration of our work and for recognizing the strengths of our approach.  

      Weaknesses: 

      The behavioral task used in this study is best suited for investigating elapsed time perception, rather than interval timing. Timing bisection tasks are often employed to study interval timing in humans and animals.

      This is a key point, and the reviewer is correct. We use our task because of its’ translational validity; as far as we know, temporal bisection tasks have been used less often in human disease and in rodent models. We have included a new paragraph describing this in the discussion (Line 472):

      “Because interval timing is reliably disrupted in human diseases of the striatum such as Huntington’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, and schizophrenia (Hinton et al., 2007; Singh et al., 2021; Ward et al., 2011), these results have relevance to human disease. Our task version has been used extensively to study interval timing in mice and humans (Balci et al., 2008; Bruce et al., 2021; Stutt et al., 2024; Tosun et al., 2016; Weber et al., 2023). However, temporal bisection tasks, in which animals hold during a temporal cue and respond at different locations depending on cue length, have advantages in studying how animals time an interval because animals are not moving while estimating cue duration (Paton and Buonomano, 2018; Robbe, 2023; Soares et al., 2016). Our interval timing task version – in which mice switch between two response nosepokes to indicate their interval estimate has elapsed – has been used extensively in rodent models of neurodegenerative disease (Larson et al., 2022; Weber et al., 2024, 2023; Zhang et al., 2021), as well as in humans (Stutt et al., 2024). Furthermore, because many therapeutics targeting dopamine receptors are used clinically, these findings help describe how dopaminergic drugs might affect cognitive function and dysfunction. Future studies of D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs in temporal bisection and other timing tasks may further clarify the relative roles of D2- and D1-MSNs in interval timing and time estimation.”

      Furthermore, we have modified the use of the definition of interval timing in the abstract, introduction, and results to reflect the reviewers comment. For instance, in the abstract (Line 43):

      “We studied dorsomedial striatal cognitive processing during interval timing, an elementary cognitive task that requires mice to estimate intervals of several seconds and involves working memory for temporal rules as well as attention to the passage of time.”

      However, we think it is important to use the term ‘interval timing’ as it links to past work by our group and others.   

      The main results from unit recording (opposing slopes of D1/D2 cell firing rate, as shown in Figure 3D) appear to be very sensitive to a couple of outlier cells, and the predictive power of ensemble recording seems to be only slightly above chance levels. 

      This is a key point raised by other reviewers as well. We have now included measures of statistical power (as we interpret the reviewer’s comment of predictive power), effect size, and perform additional sensitivity analyses (Line 187): 

      “PC1 scores for D1-MSNs (Fig 3C; PC1 for D2-MSNs: -3.4 (-4.6 – 2.5); PC1 for D1MSNs: 2.8 (-4.9 – -2.8); F=8.8, p = 0.004 accounting for variance between mice (Fig S3A);  Cohen’s d = 0.7; power = 0.80; no reliable effect of sex (F=1.9, p=0.17) or switching direction (F=0.1, p=0.75)).”

      And on Line 197:

      “GLM analysis also demonstrated that D2-MSNs had significantly different slopes (0.01 spikes/second (-0.10 – 0.10)), which were distinct from D1-MSNs (-0.20 (-0.45– 0.06; Fig 3D; F=8.9, p = 0.004 accounting for variance between mice (Fig S3B); Cohen’s d = 0.8; power = 0.98).  We found that D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs had a significantly different slope even when excluding outliers (4 outliers excluded outside of 95% confidence intervals; F=7.51, p=0.008 accounting for variance between mice) and when the interval was defined as the time between trial start and the switch response on a trial-by-trial basis for each neuron (F=4.3, p=0.04 accounting for variance between mice).”

      These are medium-to-large Cohen’s d results, and we have adequate statistical power. These results are not easily explained by chance. 

      We also added boxplots, which highlight the differences in distribution.

      Finally, we note that our conclusions are drawn from many convergent analyses (on Line 216): 

      “Analyses of average activity, PC1, and trial-by-trial firing-rate slopes over the interval provide convergent evidence that D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs had distinct and opposing dynamics during interval timing.”

      In the optogenetic experiment, the laser was kept on for too long (18 seconds) at high power (12 mW). This has been shown to cause adverse effects on population activity (for example, through heating the tissue) that are not necessarily related to their function during the task epochs. 

      This is an important point. We are well aware of heating effects with optogenetics and other potential confounds. For the exact reasons noted by the reviewer, we had opsinnegative controls – where the laser was on for the exact same amount of time (18 seconds) and at the same power (12 mW)– in Figure S5. We have now better highlighted these controls in the methods (Line 598):

      “In animals injected with optogenetic viruses, optical inhibition was delivered via bilateral patch cables for the entire trial duration of 18 seconds via 589-nm laser light at 12 mW power on 50% of randomly assigned trials. We performed control experiments in mice without opsins using identical laser parameters in D2-cre or D1-cre mice (Fig S6).”

      And in results (Line 298):

      “Importantly, we found no reliable effects for D2-MSNs with opsin-negative controls (Fig S6).”

      And Line 306): 

      “As with D2-MSNs, we found no reliable effects with opsin-negative controls in D1MSNs (Fig S6).”

      We have highlighted these data in Figure S6: 

      Furthermore, the effect of optogenetic inhibition is similar to pharmacological effects in this manuscript and in our prior work (De Corte et al., 2019; Stutt et al., 2024) on line 459): 

      “Past pharmacological work from our group and others has shown that disrupting D2- or D1-MSNs slows timing (De Corte et al., 2019b; Drew et al., 2007, 2003; Stutt et al., 2024), in line with pharmacological and optogenetic results in this manuscript.”

      And in the discussion section on Line 488: 

      “Our approach has several limitations. First, systemic drug injections block D2- and D1-receptors in many different brain regions, including the frontal cortex, which is involved in interval timing (Kim et al., 2017a). D2 blockade or D1 blockade may have complex effects, including corticostriatal or network effects that contribute to changes in D2-MSN or D1-MSN ensemble activity. We note that optogenetic inhibition of D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs produces similar effects to pharmacology in Figure 5.”

      Given the systemic delivery of pharmacological interventions, it is difficult to conclude that the effects are specific to the dorsomedial striatum. Future studies should use the local infusion of drugs into the dorsomedial striatum. 

      This is a great point - we did this experiment in De Corte et al, 2019 with local drug infusions. This earlier study was the departure point for this experiment. We now point this out in the introduction (Line 92): 

      “Past work has shown that disrupting either D2-dopamine receptors (D2) or D1dopamine receptors (D1) powerfully impairs interval timing by increasing estimates of elapsed time (Drew et al., 2007; Meck, 2006). Similar behavioral effects were found with systemic (Stutt et al., 2024) or local dorsomedial striatal D2 or D1 disruption (De Corte et al., 2019a). These data lead to the hypothesis that D2 MSNs and D1 MSNs have similar patterns of ramping activity across a temporal interval.”

      However, the reviewer makes a great point - and we will develop this in our future work (Line 485): 

      “Future studies might extend our work combining local pharmacology with neuronal ensemble recording.”

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Just a few minor notes: 

      (1) Figures 2C and D should have error bars. 

      We agree.  We added error bars to these figures and other rasters as recommended.  

      (2) Figures 2G and H seem to be smoothed - how was this done? 

      We added these details.

      (3) It is unclear what the 'neural network machine learning classifier' mentioned in lines 193-199 adds if the data relevant to this analysis isn't presented. I would potentially include this. 

      We agree. This analysis was confusing and not relevant to our main points; consequently, we removed it.  

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Major: 

      (1)  For Figure 2, the description of the main results in (C-F) in the main text is too brief and is not clear. 

      We have added to and clarified this text (Line 147)

      “Striatal neuronal populations are largely composed of MSNs expressing D2dopamine or D1-dopamine receptors. We optogenetically tagged D2-MSNs and D1MSNs by implanting optrodes in the dorsomedial striatum and conditionally expressing channelrhodopsin (ChR2; Fig S1) in 4 D2-Cre (2 female) and 5 D1-Cre transgenic mice (2 female). This approach expressed ChR2 in D2-MSNs or D1MSNs, respectively (Fig 2A-B; Kim et al., 2017a). We identified D2-MSNs or D1MSNs by their response to brief pulses of 473 nm light; neurons that fired within 5 milliseconds were considered optically tagged putative D2-MSNs (Fig S1B-C). We tagged 32 putative D2-MSNs and 41 putative D1-MSNs in a single recording session during interval timing. There were no consistent differences in overall firing rate between D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs (D2-MSNs: 3.4 (1.4 – 7.2) Hz; D1-MSNs 5.2 (3.1 – 8.6) Hz; F = 2.7, p = 0.11 accounting for variance between mice). Peri-event rasters and histograms from a tagged putative D2-MSN (Fig 2C) and from a tagged putative D1-MSN (Fig 2D) demonstrate prominent modulations for the first 6 seconds of the interval after trial start. Z-scores of average peri-event time histograms (PETHs) from 0 to 6 seconds after trial start for each putative D2-MSN are shown in Fig 2E and for each putative D1-MSN in Fig 2F. These PETHs revealed that for the 6-second interval immediately after trial start, many putative D2-MSN neurons appeared to ramp up while many putative D1-MSNs appeared to ramp down. For 32 putative D2-MSNs average PETH activity increased over the 6second interval immediately after trial start, whereas for 41 putative D1-MSNs, average PETH activity decreased. These differences resulted in distinct activity early in the interval (0-1 seconds; F = 6.0, p = 0.02 accounting for variance between mice), but not late in the interval (5-6 seconds; F = 1.9, p = 0.17 accounting for variance between mice) between D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs. Examination of a longer interval of 10 seconds before to 18 seconds after trial start revealed the greatest separation in D2-MSN and D1-MSN dynamics during the 6-second interval after trial start (Fig S2). Strikingly, these data suggest that D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs might display opposite dynamics during interval timing.”

      (2)  For Figure3 

      (A)  Is the PC1 calculated from all MSNs of all mice (4 D2, 5 D1 mice)? 

      We clarified this (Line 182):

      “We analyzed PCA calculated from all D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs PETHs over the 6second interval immediately after trial start.”

      And for pharmacology (Line 362): 

      “We noticed differences in MSN activity across the interval with D2 blockade and D1 blockade at the individual MSN level (Fig 6B-D) as well as at the population level (Fig 6E). We used PCA to quantify effects of D2 blockade or D1 blockade (Bruce et al., 2021; Emmons et al., 2017; Kim et al., 2017a). We constructed principal components (PC) from z-scored peri-event time histograms of firing rate from saline, D2 blockade, and D1 blockade sessions for all mice together.”

      (B)  The authors should perform PCA on single mouse data, and add the plot and error bar. 

      This is a great idea. We have now included this as a new Figure S3:   

      (C)  As mentioned before, both D2-or D1- MSNs can be divided into three groups, it is not appropriate to put them together as each MSN is not an independent variable, the authors should do the statistics based on the individual mouse, and do the parametric or non-parametric comparison, and plot N (number of mice) based error bars. 

      We have done exactly this using a linear mixed effects model, as recommend by our statistics core. They have explicitly suggested that this is the best approach to these data (see letter). We have also included measures of statistical power and effect size (Line 704):  

      “All data and statistical approaches were reviewed by the Biostatistics, Epidemiology, and Research Design Core (BERD) at the Institute for Clinical and Translational Sciences (ICTS) at the University of Iowa. All code and data are made available at http://narayanan.lab.uiowa.edu/article/datasets. We used the median to measure central tendency and the interquartile range to measure spread. We used Wilcoxon nonparametric tests to compare behavior between experimental conditions and Cohen’s d to calculate effect size. Analyses of putative single-unit activity and basic physiological properties were carried out using custom routines for MATLAB.

      For all neuronal analyses, variability between animals was accounted for using generalized linear-mixed effects models and incorporating a random effect for each mouse into the model, which allows to account for inherent between-mouse variability. We used fitglme in MATLAB and verified main effects using lmer in R. We accounted for variability between MSNs in pharmacological datasets in which we could match MSNs between saline, D2 blockade, and D1 blockade. P values < 0.05 were interpreted as significant.”

      We have now included measures of ‘power’ (which we interpret to be statistical), effect size, and perform additional sensitivity analyses (Line 187): 

      “PC1 scores for D1-MSNs (Fig 3C; PC1 for D2-MSNs: -3.4 (-4.6 – 2.5); PC1 for D1MSNs: 2.8 (-4.9 – -2.8); F=8.8, p = 0.004 accounting for variance between mice (Fig S3A); Cohen’s d = 0.7; power = 0.80; no reliable effect of sex (F=1.9, p=0.17) or switching direction (F=0.1, p=0.75)).”

      And Line 197:

      “GLM analysis also demonstrated that D2-MSNs had significantly different slopes (0.01 spikes/second (-0.10 – 0.10)), which were distinct from D1-MSNs (-0.20 (-0.45– 0.06; Fig 3D; F=8.9, p = 0.004 accounting for variance between mice (Fig S3B); Cohen’s d = 0.8; power = 0.98).  We found that D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs had a significantly different slope even when excluding outliers (4 outliers excluded outside of 95% confidence intervals; F=7.51, p=0.008 accounting for variance between mice) and when the interval was defined as the time between trial start and the switch response on a trial-by-trial bases for each neuron (F=4.3, p=0.04 accounting for variance between mice).”

      These are medium-to-large Cohen’s d results, and we have adequate statistical power. These results are not easily explained by chance. 

      We also added boxplots, which highlight the differences in distributions.

      (3) For results in Figure 5 and Figure S7, according to Figure 1 legend, lines 4 to 5, the response times were defined as the moment mice exit the first nose poke (on the left) to respond at the second nose poke; and according to method session (line 522), "switch" traversal time was defined as the duration between first nose poke exit and second nose poke entry. It seems that response time is the switch traversal time, they should be the same, but in Figures B and D, the response time showed a clear difference between the laser off and on groups, while in Figures S7 C, and G, there were no differences between laser off and on group for switch traversal time. Please reconcile these inconsistencies. 

      We were not clear. We now clarify – switch responses are the moment when mice depart the first nosepoke, whereas traversal time is the time between departing the first nosepoke and arriving at the second nosepoke. We have reworked our figures to make this clear.

      And in the methods (Line 570):

      “Switch response time was defined as the moment animals departed the first nosepoke before arriving at the second nosepoke. Critically, switch responses are a time-based decision guided by temporal control of action because mice switch nosepokes only if nosepokes at the first location did not receive a reward after 6 seconds. That is, mice estimate if more than 6 seconds have elapsed without receiving a reward to decide to switch responses. Mice learn this task quickly (3-4 weeks), and error trials in which an animal nosepokes in the wrong order or does not nosepoke are relatively rare and discarded. Consequently, we focused on these switch response times as the key metric for temporal control of action. Traversal time was defined as the duration between first nosepoke exit and second nosepoke entry and is distinct from switch response time when animals departed the first nosepoke. Nosepoke duration was defined as the time between first nosepoke entry and exit for the switch response times only. Trials were self-initiated, but there was an intertrial interval with a geometric mean of 30 seconds between trials.”

      And in Figure S8, we have added graphics and clarified the legend.

      (4) The first nose poke and second nose poke are very close, why did it take so long to move from the first nose poke to the second nose poke, even though the mouse already made the decision to switch? Please see Figure S1A, it took less than 6s from the back nose poke to the first nose poke, but it took more than 6s (up to 12s) from the first nose poke to the second nose poke, what were the mice's behavior during this period? 

      This is a key detail. There is no temporal urgency as only the initial nosepoke after 18 seconds leads to reward. In other words, making a second nosepoke prior to 18 seconds is not rewarded and, in well-trained animals, is wasted effort. We have added these details to the methods (Line 124):

      “On the remaining 50% of trials, mice were rewarded for nosepoking at the ‘first’ nosepoke and then switching to the ‘second’ nosepoke; initial nosepokes at the second nosepoke after 18 seconds triggered reward when preceded by a first nosepoke. The first nosepokes occurred before switching responses and the second nosepokes occurred much later in the interval in anticipation of reward delivery at 18 seconds (Fig 1B-D). During the task, movement velocity peaked before 6 seconds as mice traveled to the front nosepoke (Fig 1E).”

      And in Figure 1, as described in detail above. 

      (5) How many trials did mice perform in one day? How many recordings/day for how many days were performed? 

      These are key details that we have now added to Table 1.

      We have added the number of recording sessions to the methods (Line 603): 

      “For optogenetic tagging, putative D1- and D2-MSNs were optically identified via 473-nm photostimulation. Units with mean post-stimulation spike latencies of ≤5 milliseconds and a stimulated-to-unstimulated waveform correlation ratio of >0.9 were classified as putative D2-MSNs or D1-MSNs (Ryan et al., 2018; Shin et al., 2018). Only one recording session was performed for each animal per day, and one recording session was included from each animal.”

      And Line 606: 

      “Only one recording session was performed for each animal per day, and one recording session was included from saline, D2 blockade, and D1 blockade sessions.”

      (6) For results in Figure 5, the authors should analyze the speed for the laser on and off group, since the dorsomedial striatum was reported to be related to control of speed (Yttri, Eric A., and Joshua T. Dudman. "Opponent and bidirectional control of movement velocity in the basal ganglia." Nature 533.7603 (2016): 402-406.). 

      We have some initial DeepLabCut data and have included it in a new Figure 1E.

      B) DeepLabCut tracking of position during the interval timing revealed that mice moved quickly after trial start and then velocity was relatively constant throughout the trial

      We measure movement speed using nosepoke duration and traversal time, which can give some measure of movement velocity.

      In Yttri and Dudman, the mice are head-fixed and moving a joystick, whereas our mice are freely moving. However, we have now included the lack of motor control as a major limitation (Line 510): 

      “Finally, movement and motivation contribute to MSN dynamics (Robbe, 2023). Four lines of evidence argue that our findings cannot be directly explained by motor confounds: 1) D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs diverge between 0-6 seconds after trial start well before the first nosepoke (Fig S2), 2) our GLM accounted for nosepokes and nosepoke-related βs were similar between D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs, 3) optogenetic disruption of dorsomedial D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs did not change task-specific movements despite reliable changes in switch response time, and 4) ramping dynamics were quite distinct from movement dynamics. Furthermore, disrupting D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs did not change the number of rewards animals received, implying that these disruptions did not grossly affect motivation. Still, future work combining motion tracking with neuronal ensemble recording and optogenetics and including bisection tasks may further unravel timing vs. movement in MSN dynamics (Robbe, 2023).”

      (7)  Figure S3 (C, E, and F), statistics should be done based on N (number of mice), not on the number of recorded neurons.  

      We have removed this section, and all other statistics in the paper properly account for mouse-specific variance, as noted above.

      (8)  Figure S1 

      (A) Are these the results from all mice superposed together, or from one mouse on one given day? How many of the trials' data were superposed?

      We included these details in a new Figure 1.

      (B, C) How many trials were included? 

      (D) How many days did these data cover? 

      We have included a new Table 1 with these important details.

      We have noted that only 1 recording session / mouse was included in analysis (Line 606):

      “Only one recording session was performed for each animal per day, and one recording session was included from each animal.”

      And Line 614: 

      “Only one recording session was performed for each animal per day, and one recording session was included from saline, D2 blockade, and D1 blockade sessions.”

      (9) Figure S2 

      (A) Can the authors add coordinates of the brain according to the mouse brain atlas or, alternatively, show it using a coronal section? 

      Great idea – added to Figure S2 legend: 

      “Figure S1: A) Recording locations in the dorsomedial striatum (targeting AP +0.4, ML -1.4, DV -2.7). Electrode reconstructions for D2-Cre (red), D1-Cre (blue), and wild-type mice (green). Only the left striatum was implanted with electrodes in all animals.”

      We have also added it to Figure S5 legend: 

      “Figure S5: Fiber optic locations from A) an opsin-expressing mouse with mCherrytagged halorhodopsin and bilateral fiber optics, and B) across 10 D2-Cre mice (red) and 6 D1-cre mice (blue) with fiber optics (targeting AP +0.9, ML +/-1.3, DV –2.5).”

      (C) Why did the waveform of laser and no laser seem the same? 

      The optogenetically tagged spike waveforms are highly similar, indicating that optogenetically-triggered spikes are like other spikes. That is the main point – optogenetically stimulating the neuron does not change the waveform. We have added this detail to the legend of S1: 

      “Inset on bottom right – waveforms from laser trials (red) and trials without laser (blue).  Across 73 tagged neurons, waveform correlation coefficients for laser trials vs. trials without laser was r = 0.97 (0.92-0.99). These data demonstrate that optogenetically triggered spikes are similar to non-optogenetically triggered spikes.”

      (10)  Figure S7, what was the laser power used in this experiment? Have the authors tried different laser powers? 

      We have now clarified the laser power on line 598: 

      “In animals injected with optogenetic viruses, optical inhibition was delivered via bilateral patch cables for the entire trial duration of 18 seconds via 589-nm laser light at 12 mW power on 50% of randomly assigned trials.”

      And for Figure S6 (was S7 previously): 

      We did not try other laser powers; our parameters were chosen a priori based on our past work.  

      (11)  In Figure S9, what method was used to sort the neurons? 

      We now clarify in the methods (Line 617): 

      “Electrophysiology. Single-unit recordings were made using a multi-electrode recording system (Open Ephys, Atlanta, GA). After the experiments, Plexon Offline Sorter (Plexon, Dallas, TX), was used to remove artifacts. Principal component analysis (PCA) and waveform shape were used for spike sorting. Single units were defined as those 1) having a consistent waveform shape, 2) being a separable cluster in PCA space, and 3) having a consistent refractory period of at least 2 milliseconds in interspike interval histograms.  The same MSNs were sorted across saline, D2 blockade, and D1 blockade sessions by loading all sessions simultaneously in Offline Sorter and sorted using the preceding criteria. MSNs had to have consistent firing in all sessions to be included. Sorting integrity across sessions was quantified by comparing waveform similarity via R2 between sessions.”

      And in the results (Line 353):

      “We analyzed 99 MSNs in sessions with saline, D2 blockade, and D1 blockade. We matched MSNs across sessions based on waveform and interspike intervals; waveforms were highly similar across sessions (correlation coefficient between matched MSN waveforms: saline vs D2 blockade r = 1.00 (0.99 – 1.00 rank sum vs correlations in unmatched waveforms p = 3x10-44; waveforms; saline vs D1 blockade r = 1.00 (1.00 – 1.00), rank sum vs correlations in unmatched waveforms p = 4x10-50). There were no consistent changes in MSN average firing rate with D2 blockade or D1 blockade (F = 1.1, p = 0.30 accounting for variance between MSNs; saline: 5.2 (3.3 – 8.6) Hz; D2 blockade 5.1 (2.7 – 8.0) Hz; F = 2.2, p = 0.14; D1 blockade 4.9 (2.4 – 7.8) Hz).”

      (C-F) statistics should be done based on the number of mice, not on the number of recorded neurons. 

      We agree, all experiments are now quantified using linear mixed effects models which formally accounts for variance contributed across animals, as discussed at length earlier in the review and with statistical experts at the University of Iowa.

      (12) For results in Figure 6, did the authors do cell-type specific recording on D1 or D2 MSNs using optogenetic tagging? As the D1- or D2- MSNs account for ~50% of all MSNs, the inhibition of a considerable amount of neurons was not observed. The authors should discuss the relation between the results from optogenetic inhibition of D1- or D2- MSNs and pharmacological disruption of D1 or D2 dopamine receptors. 

      This is a great point. First, we did not combine cell-type specific recordings with tagging as it was difficult to get enough trials for analysis in a single session in the tagging experiments, and pharmacological interventions can further decrease performance.  However, we have made our results in Figure 6 much more focused.

      We have discussed the relationship between these data in the results (Line 380): 

      “This data-driven analysis shows that D2 and D1 blockade produced similar shifts in MSN population dynamics represented by PC1.  When combined with major contributions of D1/D2 MSNs to PC1 (Fig 3C) these findings show that pharmacologically disrupting D2 or D1 MSNs can disrupt ramping-related activity in the striatum.”

      And in the discussion (Line 417): 

      “Strikingly, optogenetic tagging showed that D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs had distinct dynamics during interval timing. MSN dynamics helped construct and constrain a four-parameter drift-diffusion model in which D2- and D1-MSN spiking accumulated temporal evidence. This model predicted that disrupting either D2MSNs or D1-MSNs would increase response times. Accordingly, we found that optogenetically or pharmacologically disrupting striatal D2-MSNs or D1-MSNs increased response times without affecting task-specific movements. Disrupting D2MSNs or D1-MSNs shifted MSN temporal dynamics and degraded MSN temporal encoding. These data, when combined with our model predictions, demonstrate that D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs contribute temporal evidence to controlling actions in time.”

      And: 

      “D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs play complementary roles in movement. For instance, stimulating D1-MSNs facilitates movement, whereas stimulating D2-MSNs impairs movement (Kravitz et al., 2010). Both populations have been shown to have complementary patterns of activity during movements (Tecuapetla et al., 2016), with MSNs firing at different phases of action initiation and selection. Further dissection of action selection programs reveals that opposing patterns of activation among D2MSNs and D1-MSNs suppress and guide actions, respectively, in the dorsolateral striatum (Cruz et al., 2022). A particular advantage of interval timing is that it captures a cognitive behavior within a single dimension — time. When projected along the temporal dimension, it was surprising that D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs had opposing patterns of activity. Past pharmacological work from our group and others have shown that disrupting D2 or D1 MSNs slows timing (De Corte et al., 2019; Drew et al., 2007, 2003; Stutt et al., 2023), in line with pharmacological and optogenetic results in this manuscript. Computational modeling predicted that disrupting either D2-MSNs or D1-MSNs increased self-reported estimates of time, which was supported by both optogenetic and pharmacological experiments. Notably, these disruptions are distinct from increased timing variability reported with administrations of amphetamine, ventral tegmental area dopamine neuron lesions, and rodent models of neurodegenerative disease (Balci et al., 2008; Gür et al., 2020, 2019; Larson et al., 2022; Weber et al., 2023). Furthermore, our current data demonstrate that disrupting either D2-MSN or D1-MSN activity shifted MSN dynamics and degraded temporal encoding, supporting prior work (De Corte et al., 2019; Drew et al., 2007, 2003; Stutt et al., 2023). Our recording experiments do not identify where a possible response threshold T is instantiated, but downstream basal ganglia structures may have a key role in setting response thresholds (Toda et al., 2017).”

      (13) For Figure 2, what is the error region for G and H? Is there a statistically significant difference between the start (e.g., 0-1 s) and the end (e.g., 5-6 s) time? 

      G and H are standard error, which we have now clarified.

      And on Line 166: 

      “These differences resulted in distinct activity early in the interval (0-1 seconds; F = 6.0, p = 0.02 accounting for variance between mice), but not late in the interval (5-6 seconds; F = 1.9, p = 0.17 accounting for variance between mice) between D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs.”

      Minor: 

      (1)  Figure 2 legend showed the wrong label "Peri-event raster C) from a D2-MSN (red) and E) from a D1-MSN (blue). It should be (D). 

      Fixed, thank you.  

      (2)  Figure 2. Missing legend for (E) and (F).  

      Fixed, thank you.  

      (3)  Line 423: mistyped "\" 

      Fixed, thank you.  

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      -  To clarify that complementary means opposing in this context, I suggest changing the title. 

      This is a helpful suggestion. We have changed it exactly as the reviewer suggested: 

      “Complementary opposing D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs dynamics during interval timing”

      -  I recommend adding a supplementary figure to demonstrate all the nose pokes in all trials in a given session. The current figures make it hard to assess the specifics of the behavior. For example, what happens if, in a long-interval trial, the mouse pokes in the second nose poke before 6 seconds? Is that behavior punished? Do they keep alternating between the nose poke or do they stick to one nose poke? 

      We agree. We think this is a main point, and we have now redesigned Figure 1 to describe these details: 

      And added these details to the methods (Line 548): 

      “Interval timing switch task. We used a mouse-optimized operant interval timing task described in detail previously (Balci et al., 2008; Bruce et al., 2021; Tosun et al., 2016; Weber et al., 2023). Briefly, mice were trained in sound-attenuating operant chambers, with two front nosepokes flanking either side of a food hopper on the front wall, and a third nosepoke located at the center of the back wall. The chamber was positioned below an 8-kHz, 72-dB speaker (Fig 1A; MedAssociates, St. Albans, VT). Mice were 85% food restricted and motivated with 20 mg sucrose pellets (BioServ, Flemington, NJ). Mice were initially trained to receive rewards during fixed ratio nosepoke response trials. Nosepoke entry and exit were captured by infrared beams. After shaping, mice were trained in the “switch” interval timing task. Mice self-initiated trials at the back nosepoke, after which tone and nosepoke lights were illuminated simultaneously. Cues were identical on all trial types and lasted the entire duration of the trial (6 or 18 seconds). On 50% of trials, mice were rewarded for a nosepoke after 6 seconds at the designated first ‘front’ nosepoke; these trials were not analyzed. On the remaining 50% of trials, mice were rewarded for nosepoking first at the ‘first’ nosepoke location and then switching to the ‘second’ nosepoke location; the reward was delivered for initial nosepokes at the second nosepoke location after 18 seconds when preceded by a nosepoke at the first nosepoke location.  Multiple nosepokes at each nosepokes were allowed. Early responses at the first or second nosepoke were not reinforced. Initial responses at the second nosepoke rather than the first nosepoke, alternating between nosepokes, going back to the first nosepoke after the second nosepoke were rare after initial training. Error trials included trials where animals responded only at the first or second nosepoke and were also not reinforced. We did not analyze error trials as they were often too few to analyze; these were analyzed at length in our prior work (Bruce et al., 2021).”

      -  Figures 2E and 2F suggest that some D1 cells ramp up during the first 6 seconds, while others ramp down. The same is more or less true for D2s. I wonder if the analysis will lose its significance if the two outlier D1s are excluded from Figure 3D. 

      This is a great idea suggested by multiple reviewers. We repeated this analysis with outliers removed. We used a data-driven approach to remove outliers (Line 656): 

      “We performed additional sensitivity analysis excluding outliers outside of 95% confidence intervals and measuring firing rate from the start of the interval to the time of the switch response on a trial-by-trial level for each neuron.”

      And described these data in the results (Line 201): 

      “We found that D2-MSNs and D1-MSNs had a significantly different slope even when excluding outliers (4 outliers excluded outside of 95% confidence intervals; F=7.51, p=0.008 accounting for variance between mice) and when the interval was defined as the time between trial start and the switch response on a trial-by-trial basis for each neuron (F=4.3, p=0.04 accounting for variance between mice).”

      Finally, we removed the outliers the reviewers alluded to – two D1 MSNs – and found similar results (F=6.59, p=0.01 for main effect of D2 vs. D1 MSNs controlling for between-mouse variability). We elected to include the more data driven approach based on 95% confidence intervals.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment

      This useful study examined the associations of a healthy lifestyle with comprehensive and organ-specific biological ages defined using common blood biomarkers and body measures. Its large sample size, longitudinal design, and robust statistical analysis provide solid support for the findings, which will be of interest to epidemiologists and clinicians.

      Thank you very much for your thoughtful review of our manuscript. Your valuable comments have greatly helped us improve our manuscript. We have carefully considered all the comments and suggestions made by the reviewers and have revised them to address each point. Below, we provide detailed responses to each of the reviewers' comments. Please note that the line numbers mentioned in the following responses correspond to the line numbers in the clean version of the manuscript.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study was to examine the associations of a healthy lifestyle with comprehensive and organ-specific biological ages. It emphasized the importance of lifestyle factors in biological ages, which were defined using common blood biomarkers and body measures.

      Strengths:

      The data were from a large cohort study and defined comprehensive and six-specified biological ages.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Since only 8.5% of participants from the CMEC (China Multi-Ethnic Cohort Study) were included in the study, has any section bias happened?

      Thank you for your valuable question. We understand the concern regarding the potential selection bias due to only 8.5% of participants being included in the study. The baseline survey of China Multi-Ethnic Cohort Study (CMEC) employed a rigorous multi-stage stratified cluster sampling method and the repeat survey reevaluated approximately 10% of baseline participants through community-based cluster random sampling. Therefore, the sample of the repeat survey is representative. The second reason for the loss of sample size was the availability of biomarkers for BA calculation. We have compared characteristic of the overall population, the population included in and excluded from this study. Most characteristics were similar, but participants included in this study showed better in some health-related variables, one potential reason is healthier individuals were more likely to complete the follow-up survey. In conclusion, we believe that the impact of selection bias is limited.

      Author response table 1.

      Baseline characteristics of participants included and not included in the study

      BA, biological age; BMI, body mass index; CVD, cardiovascular disease; HLI, healthy lifestyle indicator.

      1 Data are presented as median (25th, 75th percentile) for continuous variables and count (percentage) for categorical variables.

      2 For HLI, "healthy" corresponds to a score of 4-5.

      3 Information on each validated BA has been reported. BA acceleration is the difference between each BA and CA in the same survey.

      (2) The authors should specify the efficiency of FFQ. How can FFQ genuinely reflect the actual intake? Moreover, how was the aMED calculated?

      Thank you for the comments and questions. We appreciate the opportunity to clarify these aspects of our study. For the first question, we evaluated the FFQ's reproducibility and validity by conducting repeated FFQs and 24-hour dietary recalls at the baseline survey. Intraclass correlation coefficients (ICC) for reproducibility ranged from 0.15 for fresh vegetables to 0.67 for alcohol, while deattenuated Spearman rank correlations for validity ranged from 0.10 for soybean products to 0.66 for rice. More details are provided in our previous study (Lancet Reg Health West Pac, 2021). We have added the corresponding content in both the main text and the supplementary materials.

      Methods, Page 8, lines 145-146: “The FFQ's reproducibility and validity were evaluated by conducting repeated FFQs and 24-hour dietary recalls.”

      Supplementary methods, Dietary assessment: “We evaluated the FFQ's reproducibility and validity by conducting repeated FFQs and 24-hour dietary recalls. Intraclass correlation coefficients for reproducibility ranged from 0.15 for fresh vegetables to 0.67 for alcohol, while deattenuated Spearman rank correlations for validity ranged from 0.10 for soybean products to 0.66 for rice.”

      For the second question, we apologize for any confusion. To avoid taking up too much space in the main text, we decided not to include the detailed aMED calculation (as described in Circulation, 2009) there and instead placed it in the supplementary materials:

      “Our calculated aMED score incorporates eight components: vegetables, legumes, fruits, whole grains, fish, the ratio of monounsaturated fatty acids (MUFA) to saturated fatty acids (SFA), red and processed meats, and alcohol. Each component's consumption was divided into sex-specific quintiles. Scores ranging from 1 to 5 were assigned based on quintile rankings to each component, except for red and processed meats and alcohol, for which the scoring was inverted. The alcohol criteria for the aMED was defined as moderate consumption. Since the healthy lifestyle index (HLI) already contained a drinking component, we removed the drinking item in the aMED, which had a score range of 7-35 with a higher score reflecting better adherence to the overall Mediterranean dietary pattern. We defined individuals with aMED scores ≥ population median as healthy diets.”

      Reference:

      (1) Xiao X, Qin Z, Lv X, Dai Y, Ciren Z, Yangla Y, et al. Dietary patterns and cardiometabolic risks in diverse less-developed ethnic minority regions: results from the China Multi-Ethnic Cohort (CMEC) Study. Lancet Reg Health West Pac. 2021;15:100252. doi: 10.1016/j.lanwpc.2021.100252.

      (2) Fung TT, Rexrode KM, Mantzoros CS, Manson JE, Willett WC, Hu FB. Mediterranean diet and incidence of and mortality from coronary heart disease and stroke in women. Circulation. 2009;119(8):1093-100. doi: 10.1161/circulationaha.108.816736.

      (3) HLI (range) and HLI (category) should be clearly defined.

      Thank you for the comment. We have added the definition of HLI (range) and HLI (category) in the methods section:

      Methods P9 lines 165-170: “The HLI was calculated by directly adding up the five lifestyle scores, ranging from 0-5, with a higher score representing an overall healthier lifestyle, denoted as HLI (range) in the following text. We then transformed HLI into a dichotomous variable in this study, denoted as HLI (category), where a score of 4-5 for HLI was considered a healthy lifestyle, and a score of 0-3 was considered an unfavorable lifestyle that could be improved.”

      (4) The comprehensive rationale and each specific BA construction should be clearly defined and discussed. For example, can cardiopulmonary BA be reflected only by using cardiopulmonary status? I do not think so.

      Thank you for the opportunity to clarify. We constructed the comprehensive BA based on all the available biochemical data from the CMEC study, selecting aging-related markers (J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci, 2021), and further construct organ-specific BAs based on these selected biomarkers. The KDM algorithm does not specify biomarker types but requires them to be correlated with chronological age (CA) (Ageing Dev, 2006). Existing studies typically construct BA based on available biomarker, we included 15 biomarkers in this study, which could be considered comprehensive and extensive compared to previous research (J Transl Med. 2023; J Am Heart Assoc. 2024; Nat Cardiovasc Res. 2024). For how the biomarkers for each organ-specific BAs were selected, we categorized biomarkers primarily based on their relevance to the structure and function of each organ system according to the classification in previous studies (Nat Med, 2023; Cell Rep, 2022). Since the biomarkers we used came from clinical-lab data sets, they were categorized based on the clinical interpretation of blood chemistry tests following the methods outlined in the two referenced papers (Nat Med, 2023; Cell Rep, 2022). We only used biomarkers directly related to each specific system to minimize overlap between the indicators used for different BAs, thereby preserving the distinctiveness of organ-specific BAs. We acknowledge the limitations of this approach that a few biomarkers may not fully capture the complete aging process of a system, and certain indicators may be missing due to data constraints. However, the multi-organ BAs we constructed are cost-effective, easy to implement, and have been validated, making them valuable despite the limitations.

      Reference:

      (1) Verschoor CP, Belsky DW, Ma J, Cohen AA, Griffith LE, Raina P. Comparing Biological Age Estimates Using Domain-Specific Measures From the Canadian Longitudinal Study on Aging. J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci. 2021;76(2):187-94. doi: 10.1093/gerona/glaa151.

      (2) Klemera P, Doubal S. A new approach to the concept and computation of biological age. Mech Ageing Dev. 2006;127(3):240-8. doi: 10.1016/j.mad.2005.10.004

      (3) Zhang R, Wu M, Zhang W, Liu X, Pu J, Wei T, et al. Association between life's essential 8 and biological ageing among US adults. J Transl Med. 2023;21(1):622. doi: 10.1186/s12967-023-04495-8.

      (4) Forrester SN, Baek J, Hou L, Roger V, Kiefe CI. A Comparison of 5 Measures of Accelerated Biological Aging and Their Association With Incident Cardiovascular Disease: The CARDIA Study. J Am Heart Assoc. 2024;13(8):e032847. doi: 10.1161/jaha.123.032847.

      (5) Jiang M, Tian S, Liu S, Wang Y, Guo X, Huang T, Lin X, Belsky DW, Baccarelli AA, Gao X. Accelerated biological aging elevates the risk of cardiometabolic multimorbidity and mortality. Nat Cardiovasc Res. 2024;3(3):332-42. doi: 10.1038/s44161-024-00438-8.

      (6) Tian YE, Cropley V, Maier AB, Lautenschlager NT, Breakspear M, Zalesky A. Heterogeneous aging across multiple organ systems and prediction of chronic disease and mortality. Nat Med. 2023;29(5):1221-31. doi: 10.1038/s41591-023-02296-6.

      (7) Nie C, Li Y, Li R, Yan Y, Zhang D, Li T, et al. Distinct biological ages of organs and systems identified from a multi-omics study. Cell Rep. 2022;38(10):110459. doi: 10.1016/j.celrep.2022.110459.

      (5) The lifestyle index is defined based on an equal-weight approach, but this does not reflect reality and cannot fully answer the research questions it raises.

      Thank you very much for your valuable suggestion. We used equal weight healthy lifestyle index (HLI) partly to facilitate comparisons with other studies. The equal-weight approach to construct the HLI is commonly used in current research (Bmj, 2021; Diabetes Care. 2022; Arch Gerontol Geriatr. 2022). The equal-weight HLI can demonstrate the average benefit of adopting each additional healthy lifestyle and avoid assumptions about the relative importance of different behaviors, which may vary depending on the population. To further clarify the importance of each lifestyle factor, we conducted quantile G-computation analysis, which can reflect the weight differences between lifestyle factors (PLoS Med, 2020; Clin Epigenetics, 2022).

      Reference:

      (1) Zhang YB, Chen C, Pan XF, Guo J, Li Y, Franco OH, Liu G, Pan A. Associations of healthy lifestyle and socioeconomic status with mortality and incident cardiovascular disease: two prospective cohort studies. Bmj. 2021;373:n604. doi: 10.1136/bmj.n604.

      (2) Han H, Cao Y, Feng C, Zheng Y, Dhana K, Zhu S, Shang C, Yuan C, Zong G. Association of a Healthy Lifestyle With All-Cause and Cause-Specific Mortality Among Individuals With Type 2 Diabetes: A Prospective Study in UK Biobank. Diabetes Care. 2022;45(2):319-29. doi: 10.2337/dc21-1512.

      (3) Jin S, Li C, Cao X, Chen C, Ye Z, Liu Z. Association of lifestyle with mortality and the mediating role of aging among older adults in China. Arch Gerontol Geriatr. 2022;98:104559. doi: 10.1016/j.archger.2021.104559.

      (4) Chudasama YV, Khunti K, Gillies CL, Dhalwani NN, Davies MJ, Yates T, Zaccardi F. Healthy lifestyle and life expectancy in people with multimorbidity in the UK Biobank: A longitudinal cohort study. PLoS Med. 2020;17(9):e1003332. doi: 10.1371/journal.pmed.1003332.

      (5) Kim K, Zheng Y, Joyce BT, Jiang H, Greenland P, Jacobs DR, Jr., et al. Relative contributions of six lifestyle- and health-related exposures to epigenetic aging: the Coronary Artery Risk Development in Young Adults (CARDIA) Study. Clin Epigenetics. 2022;14(1):85. doi: 10.1186/s13148-022-01304-9.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      This interesting study focuses on the association between lifestyle factors and comprehensive and organ-specific biological aging in a multi-ethnic cohort from Southwest China. It stands out for its large sample size, longitudinal design, and robust statistical analysis.

      Some issues deserve clarification to enhance this paper:

      (1) How were the biochemical indicators for organ-specific biological ages chosen, and are these indicators appropriate? Additionally, a more detailed description of the multi-organ biological ages should be provided to help understand the distribution and characteristics of BAs.

      We thank you for raising this point. As explained in our response to the fourth question from the first reviewer, we constructed the comprehensive BA b ased on all the available biochemical data from the CMEC study, selecting aging-related markers (J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci, 2021), and further construct organ-specific BAs based on these selected biomarkers. The KDM algorithm does not specify biomarker types but requires them to be correlated with chronological age (CA) (Ageing Dev, 2006). Existing studies typically construct BA based on available biomarker, we included 15 biomarkers in this study, which could be considered comprehensive and extensive compared to previous research (J Transl Med. 2023; J Am Heart Assoc. 2024; Nat Cardiovasc Res. 2024). For how   the biomarkers for each organ-specific BAs were selected, we categorized biomarkers primarily based on their relevance to the structure and function of each organ system according to the classification in previous studies (Nat Med, 2023; Cell Rep, 2022). Since the biomarkers we used came from clinical-lab data sets, they were categorized based on the clinical interpretation of blood chemistry tests (Nat Med, 2023). We only used biomarkers directly related to each specific system to minimize overlap between the indicators used for different BAs, thereby preserving the distinctiveness of organ-specific BAs.

      We have added a descriptive table for the comprehensive and organ systems BAs in the supplementary materials to provide a more detailed understanding of the distribution and characteristics of BAs:

      Author response table 2.

      Description of BA and BA acceleration1

      BA, biological age

      1 Data are presented as mean (standard deviation).

      (2) The authors categorized the HLI score into a dichotomous variable, which may cause a loss of information. How did the authors address this potential issue?

      Thank you for raising this concern. We categorized each lifestyle factor into a binary variable based on relevant guidelines and studies, which recommend assigning a score of 1 if the guideline or study recommendations are met (Bmj, 2021; J Am Heart Assoc, 2023). While dichotomization may lead to some loss of information, it allows for a clearer interpretation and comparison of adherence to ideal healthy lifestyle behaviors. Another advantage of this treatment is that it allows for easy comparison with other studies. We categorized the HLI score into a dichotomous variable to enhance the practical relevance of the results (J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci, 2021). Additionally, we conducted analyses using the continuous HLI score to ensure that our findings were robust, and the results were consistent with those obtained using the dichotomous HLI.

      Reference:

      (1) Verschoor CP, Belsky DW, Ma J, Cohen AA, Griffith LE, Raina P. Comparing Biological Age Estimates Using Domain-Specific Measures From the Canadian Longitudinal Study on Aging. J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci. 2021;76(2):187-94. doi: 10.1093/gerona/glaa151.

      (2) Klemera P, Doubal S. A new approach to the concept and computation of biological age. Mech Ageing Dev. 2006;127(3):240-8. doi: 10.1016/j.mad.2005.10.004

      (3) Zhang R, Wu M, Zhang W, Liu X, Pu J, Wei T, et al. Association between life's essential 8 and biological ageing among US adults. J Transl Med. 2023;21(1):622. doi: 10.1186/s12967-023-04495-8.

      (4) Forrester SN, Baek J, Hou L, Roger V, Kiefe CI. A Comparison of 5 Measures of Accelerated Biological Aging and Their Association With Incident Cardiovascular Disease: The CARDIA Study. J Am Heart Assoc. 2024;13(8):e032847. doi: 10.1161/jaha.123.032847.

      (5) Jiang M, Tian S, Liu S, Wang Y, Guo X, Huang T, Lin X, Belsky DW, Baccarelli AA, Gao X. Accelerated biological aging elevates the risk of cardiometabolic multimorbidity and mortality. Nat Cardiovasc Res. 2024;3(3):332-42. doi: 10.1038/s44161-024-00438-8.

      (6) Tian YE, Cropley V, Maier AB, Lautenschlager NT, Breakspear M, Zalesky A. Heterogeneous aging across multiple organ systems and prediction of chronic disease and mortality. Nat Med. 2023;29(5):1221-31. doi: 10.1038/s41591-023-02296-6.

      (7) Nie C, Li Y, Li R, Yan Y, Zhang D, Li T, et al. Distinct biological ages of organs and systems identified from a multi-omics study. Cell Rep. 2022;38(10):110459. doi: 10.1016/j.celrep.2022.110459.

      (3) Because lifestyle data are self-reported, they may suffer from recall bias. This issue needs to be addressed in the limitations section.

      Thank you for your valuable suggestion. We acknowledge that the use of self-reported lifestyle data in our study may introduce recall bias, potentially affecting the accuracy of the information collected. We have added the following statement to the limitations section of our manuscript:

      Discussion, Page 22, lines 463-464: “Fifth, assessment of lifestyle factors was based on self-reported data collected through questionnaires, which may be subject to recall bias.”

      (4) It should be clarified whether the adjusted CA is the baseline value of CA. Additionally, why did the authors choose models with additional adjustments for time-invariant variables as their primary analysis? This approach does not align with standard FEM analysis (Lines 261-263).

      Thank you for the opportunity to clarify. We have changed the sentence to “baseline CA”. For the second question, in a standard fixed effects model (FEM), only time-varying variables are typically included. However, to enhance the flexibility of our models and account for potential variations in the association of time-invariant variables with CA, as has been commonly done in previous studies, we additionally adjusted for time-invariant variables and the baseline value of CA (BMC Med Res Methodol, 2024; Am J Clin Nutr, 2020). Moreover, sensitivity analyses using the standard FEM were conducted in this study, and robust results were obtained.

      Reference:

      (1) Tang D, Hu Y, Zhang N, Xiao X, Zhao X. Change analysis for intermediate disease markers in nutritional epidemiology: a causal inference perspective. BMC Med Res Methodol. 2024;24(1):49. doi: 10.1186/s12874-024-02167-9.

      (2) Trichia E, Luben R, Khaw KT, Wareham NJ, Imamura F, Forouhi NG. The associations of longitudinal changes in consumption of total and types of dairy products and markers of metabolic risk and adiposity: findings from the European Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition (EPIC)-Norfolk study, United Kingdom. Am J Clin Nutr. 2020;111(5):1018-26. doi: 10.1093/ajcn/nqz335.

      (5) How is the relative contribution calculated in the QGC analysis? The relative contribution of some lifestyle factors is not shown in Figure 2 and the supplementary figures, such as Supplementary Figure 7. These omissions should be explained.

      Thanks for the questions. The QGC obtains causal relationships and estimates weights for each component, which has been widely used in epidemiological research. More details about QGC can be found in the supplementary methods. The reason some results are not displayed is that we assumed all healthy lifestyle changes would have a protective effect on BA acceleration. However, the effect size of some lifestyle factors did not align with this assumption and lacked statistical significance. Because positive and negative weights were calculated separately in QGC, with all positive weights summing to 1 and all negative weights summing to 1, these factors would have had large positive weights. To avoid potential misunderstandings, we chose not to include these results in the figures. We have added explanations to the figure legends where applicable:

      “The blue bars represent results that are statistically significant in the FEM analysis, while the gray bars represent results in the FEM analysis that were not found to be statistically significant and positive weights were not shown.”

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      To enhance this paper, some issues deserve clarification:

      (1) How were the biochemical indicators for organ-specific biological ages chosen, and are these indicators appropriate? Additionally, please provide a more detailed description of the multi-organ biological ages to help understand BAs' the distribution and characteristics.

      (2) The authors categorized the HLI score into a dichotomous variable, which may cause a loss of information. How did the authors address this potential issue?

      (3) Because lifestyle data are self-reported, they may suffer from recall bias. This issue needs to be addressed in the limitations section.

      (4) Lines 261-263: Please clarify if the adjusted CA is the baseline value of CA. Additionally, why did you choose models with additional adjustments for time-invariant variables as your primary analysis? This approach does not align with standard FEM analysis.

      (5) How is the relative contribution calculated in the QGC analysis? The relative contribution of some lifestyle factors is not shown in Figure 2 and the supplementary figures, such as Supplementary Figure 7. Please explain these omissions.

      The above five issues overlap with those raised by Reviewer #2 (Public Review). Please refer to the responses provided earlier.

      Minor revision:

      Line 50: The expression "which factors" should be changed to "which lifestyle factor."

      Thank you for the suggestion. As suggested, we have used “which lifestyle factor” instead.

      Lines 91-92: "Aging exhibits variations across and with individuals" appears to be a clerical error. According to the context, it should be "Aging exhibits variations across and within individuals."

      We thank the reviewer for the correction. We have updated the text to read:

      “Aging exhibits variations across and within individuals.”

      Line 154: The authors mentioned "Considering previous studies" but lacked references. Please add the appropriate citations.

      Thank you for pointing this out. We apologize for the oversight. We have now added the appropriate citations to support the statement "Considering previous studies" in the revised manuscript.

      Lines 170-171: "regular exercise ("12 times/week", "3-5 times/week," or "daily or almost every day")"; the first item in parentheses should be "1-2 times/week"? Please verify and correct if necessary. Additionally, check the entire text carefully to avoid confusion caused by clerical errors.

      Thank you for your careful review. We have changed the sentence to "1-2 times/week." We have thoroughly checked the entire manuscript to ensure that no other clerical errors remain.

      Clarifications for Table 1:

      i. The expression "HLI=0" is difficult to understand. Please provide a more straightforward explanation or rephrase it.

      Thank you for your feedback. We have removed the confusing expression and provided a clearer explanation in the table legend for better understanding:

      “For HLI (category), "healthy" corresponds to a score of 4-5, while "unfavorable" corresponds to a score of 0-3.”

      ii. The baseline age is presented as an integer, but the follow-up age is not. Please clarify this discrepancy.

      Thank you for pointing out this discrepancy. We calculated the precise chronological age based on based on participants' survey dates and birth dates for the biological age calculations. Initially, the table presented age as integers, but we have now updated it to show the precise ages.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer #1:

      Despite the strengths, multiple analytical decisions have to be explained, justified, or clarified. Also, there is scope to enhance the clarity and coherence of the writing - as it stands, readers will have to go back and forth to search for information. Last, it would be helpful to add line numbers in the manuscript during the revision, as this will help all reviewers to locate the parts we are talking about.

      We thank the reviewer’s suggestions have added the line numbers to the revised manuscript.

      (1) Introduction:

      The introduction is somewhat unmotivated, with key terms/concepts left unexplained until relatively late in the manuscript. One of the main focuses in this work is "hyperaltruistic", but how is this defined? It seems that the authors take the meaning of "willing to pay more to reduce other's pain than their own pain", but is this what the task is measuring? Did participants ever need to PAY something to reduce the other's pain? Note that some previous studies indeed allow participants to pay something to reduce other's pain. And what makes it "HYPER-altruistic" rather than simply "altruistic"?

      As the reviewer noted, we adopted a well-established experimental paradigm to study the context-dependent effect on hyper-altruism. Altruism refers to the fact that people take others’ welfare into account when making decisions that concern both parties. Research paradigms investigating altruistic behavior typically use a social decision task that requires participants to choose between options where their own financial interests are pitted against the welfare of others (FeldmanHall et al., 2015; Hu et al., 2021; Hutcherson et al., 2015; Teoh et al., 2020; Xiong et al., 2020). On the other hand, the hyperaltruistic tendency emphasizes subjects’ higher valuation to other’s pain than their own pain (Crockett et al., 2014, 2015, 2017; Volz et al., 2017). One example for the manifestation of hyperaltruism would be the following scenario: the subject is willing to forgo $2 to reduce others’ pain by 1 unit (social-decision task) and only willing to forgo $1 to reduce the same amount of his/her own pain (self-decision task) (Crockett et al., 2014). On the contrary, if the subjects are willing to forgo less money to reduce others’ suffering in the social decision task than in the self-decision task, then it can be claimed that no hyperaltruism is observed. Therefore, hyperaltruistic preference can only be measured by collecting subjects’ choices in both the self and social decision tasks and comparing the choices in both tasks.

      In our task, as in the studies before ours (Crockett et al., 2014, 2015, 2017; Volz et al., 2017), subjects in each trial were faced with two options with different levels of pain on others and monetary payoffs on themselves. Based on subjects’ choice data, we can infer how much subjects were willing to trade 1 unit of monetary payoff in exchange of reducing others’ pain through the regression analysis (see Figure 1 and methods for the experimental details). We have rewritten the introduction and methods sections to make this point clearer to the audience.  

      Plus, in the intro, the authors mentioned that the "boundary conditions" remain unexplored, but this idea is never touched again. What do boundary conditions mean here in this task? How do the results/data help with finding out the boundary conditions? Can this be discussed within wider literature in the Discussion section?

      Boundary conditions here specifically refer to the variables or decision contexts that determine whether hyperaltruistic behavior can be elicited. Individual personality trait, motivation and social relationship may all be boundary conditions affecting the emergence of hyperaltruistic behavior. In our task, we specifically focused on the valence of the decision context (gain vs. loss) since previous studies only tested the hyperaltruistic preference in the gain context and the introduction of the loss context might bias subjects’ hyperaltruistic behavior through implicit moral framing.

      We have explained the boundary conditions in the revised introduction (Lines 45 ~ 49).

      “However, moral norm is also context dependent: vandalism is clearly against social and moral norms yet vandalism for self-defense is more likely to be ethically and legally justified (the Doctrine of necessity). Therefore, a crucial step is to understand the boundary conditions for hyperaltruism.”

      Last, what motivated the authors to examine the decision context? It comes somewhat out of the blue that the opening paragraph states that "We set out to [...] decision context", but why? Are there other important factors? Why decision context is more important than studying those others?

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. The hyperaltruistic preference was originally demonstrated between conditions where subjects’ personal monetary gain was pitted against others’ pain (social-condition) or against subjects’ own suffering (self-condition) (Crockett et al., 2014). Follow up studies found that subjects also exhibited strong egoistic tendencies if instead subjects needed to harm themselves for other’s benefit in the social condition (by flipping the recipients of monetary gain and electric shocks) (Volz et al., 2017). However, these studies have primarily focused on the gain contexts, neglecting the fact that valence could also be an influential factor in biasing subjects’ behavior (difference between gain and loss processing in humans). It is likely that replacing monetary gains with losses in the money-pain trade-off task might bias subjects’ hyperaltruistic preference due to heightened vigilance or negative emotions in the face of potential loss (such as loss aversion) (Kahneman & Tversky, 1979; Liu et al., 2020; Pachur et al., 2018; Tom et al., 2007; Usher & McClelland, 2004; Yechiam & Hochman, 2013). Another possibility is that gain and loss contexts may elicit different subjective moral perceptions (or internal moral framings) in participants, affecting their hyperaltruistic preferences (Liu et al., 2017; Losecaat Vermeer et al., 2020; Markiewicz & Czupryna, 2018; Wu et al., 2018). In our manuscript, we did not strive to compare which factors might be more important in eliciting hyperaltruistic behavior, but rather to demonstrate the crucial role played by the decision context and to show that the internal moral framing could be the mediating factor in driving subjects’ hyperaltruistic behavior. In fact, we speculate that the egoistic tendencies found in the Volz et al. 2017 study was partly driven by the subjects’ failure to engage the proper internal moral framing in the social condition (harm for self, see Volz et al., 2017 for details).

      (2) Experimental Design:

      (2a) The experiment per se is largely solid, as it followed a previously well-established protocol. But I am curious about how the participants got instructed? Did the experimenter ever mention the word "help" or "harm" to the participants? It would be helpful to include the exact instructions in the SI.

      In the instructions, we avoided words such as “harm”, “help”, or other terms reminding subjects about the moral judgement of the decisions they were about to make. Instead, we presented the options in a neutral and descriptive manner, focusing only on the relevant components (shocks and money). The instructions for all four conditions are shown in supplementary Fig. 9.

      (2b) Relatedly, the experimental details were not quite comprehensive in the main text. Indeed, the Methods come after the main text, but to be able to guide readers to understand what was going on, it would be very helpful if the authors could include some necessary experimental details at the beginning of the Results section.

      We thank the reviewer’s suggestion. We have now provided a brief introduction of the experimental details in the revised results section (Lines 125 ~132).

      “Prior to the money-pain trade-off task, we individually calibrated each subject’s pain threshold using a standard procedure[4–6]. This allowed us to tailor a moderate electric stimulus that corresponded to each subject’s subjective pain intensity. Subjects then engaged in 240 decision trials (60 trials per condition), acting as the “decider” and trading off between monetary gains or losses for themselves and the pain experienced by either themselves or an anonymous “pain receiver” (gain-self, gain-other, loss-self and loss-other, see Supplementary Fig. 8 for the instructions and also see methods for details).”

      (3) Statistical Analysis<br /> (3a) One of the main analyses uses the harm aversion model (Eq1) and the results section keeps referring to one of the key parameters of it (ie, k). However, it is difficult to understand the text without going to the Methods section below. Hence it would be very helpful to repeat the equation also in the main text. A similar idea goes to the delta_m and delta_s terms - it will be very helpful to give a clear meaning of them, as nearly all analyses rely on knowing what they mean.

      We thank the reviewer’s suggestion. We have now added the equation of the harm aversion model and provided more detailed description to the equations in the main text (Lines 150 ~155).

      “We also modeled subjects’ choices using an influential model where subjects’ behavior could be characterized by the harm (electric shock) aversion parameter κ, reflecting the relative weights subjects assigned to ∆m and ∆s, the objective difference in money and shocks between the more and less painful options, respectively (∆V=(1-κ)∆m - κ∆s Eq.1, See Methods for details)[4–6]. Higher κ indicates that higher sensitivity is assigned to ∆s than ∆m and vice versa.”

      (3b) There is one additional parameter gamma (choice consistency) in the model. Did the authors also examine the task-related difference of gamma? This might be important as some studies have shown that the other-oriented choice consistency may differ in different prosocial contexts.

      To examine the task-related difference of choice consistency (γ), we compared the performance of 4 candidate models:

      Model 1 (M1): The choice consistency parameter γ remains constant across shock recipients (self vs. other) and decision contexts (gain vs. loss).

      Model 2 (M2): γ differs between the self- and other-recipient conditions, with γ<sub>self</sub> and γ<sub>other</sub> representing the choice consistency when pain is inflicted on him/her-self or the other-recipient.

      Model 3 (M3): γ differs between the gain and loss conditions, with γ<sub>gain</sub> and γ<sub>loss</sub> representing the choice consistencies in the gain and loss contexts, respectively.

      Model 4 (M4): γ varies across four conditions, with γ<sub>self-gain</sub>, γ<sub>other-gain</sub>, γ<sub>self-loss</sub> and γ<sub>other-loss</sub> capturing the choice consistency in each condition.

      Supplementary Fig. 10 shows, after fitting all the models to subjects’ choice behavioral data, model 1 (M1) performed the best among all the four candidate models in both studies (1 & 2) with the lowest Bayesian Information Criterion (BIC). Therefore, we conclude that factors such as the shock recipients (self vs. other) and decision contexts (gain vs. loss) did not significantly influence subjects’ choice consistency and report model results using the single choice consistency parameter.

      (3c) I am not fully convinced that the authors included two types of models: the harm aversion model and the logistic regression models. Indeed, the models look similar, and the authors have acknowledged that. But I wonder if there is a way to combine them? For example:

      Choice ~ delta_V * context * recipient (*Oxt_v._placebo)

      The calculation of delta_V follows Equation 1.

      Or the conceptual question is, if the authors were interested in the specific and independent contribution of dalta_m and dalta_s to behavior, as their logistic model did, why did the authors examine the harm aversion first, where a parameter k is controlling for the trade-off? One way to find it out is to properly run different models and run model comparisons. In the end, it would be beneficial to only focus on the "winning" model to draw inferences.

      The reviewer raised an excellent point here. According to the logistic regression model, we have:

      Where P is the probability of selecting the less harmful option. Similarly, if we combine Eq.1 (∆V=1-κ)∆m-κ∆s) and Eq.2 ) of the harm aversion model, we have:

      If we ignore the constant term β<sub>0</sub> from the logistic regression model, the harm aversion model is simply a reparameterization of the logistic regression model. The harm aversion model was implemented first to derive the harm aversion parameter (κ), which is an parameter in the range of [0 1] to quantify how subjects value the relative contribution of Δm and Δs between options in their decision processes. Since previous studies used the term κ<sub>other</sub>-κ<sub>self</sub> to define the magnitude of hyperaltruistic preference, we adopted similar approach to compare our results with previous research under the same theoretical framework. However, in order to investigate the independent contribution of Δm and Δs, we will have to take γ into account (we can see that the β<sub>∆m</sub> and β<sub>∆s</sub> in the logistic regression model are not necessarily correlated by nature; however, in the harm aversion model the coefficients (1-κ) and κ is always strictly negatively correlated (see Eq. 1). Only after multiplying γ, the correlation between γ(1-κ) and γκ will vary depending on the specific distribution of γ and κ). In summary, we followed the approach of previous research to estimate harm aversion parameter κ to compare our results with previous studies and to capture the relative influence between Δm and Δs. When we studied the contextual effects (gain vs. loss or placebo vs. control) on subjects’ behavior, we further investigated the contextual effect on how subjects evaluated Δm and Δs, respectively. The two models (logistic regression model and harm aversion model) in our study are mathematically the same and are not competitive candidate models. Instead, they represent different aspects from which our data can be examined.

      We also compared the harm aversion model with and without the constant term β<sub>0</sub> in the choice function. Adding a constant term β<sub>0</sub> the above Equation 2 becomes:

      As the following figure shows, the hyperaltruistic parameters (κ<sub>other</sub>-κ<sub>self</sub>) calculated from the harm aversion model with the constant term (panels A & B) have almost identical patterns as the model without the constant term (panels C & D, i.e. Figs. 2B & 4B in the original manuscript) in both studies.

      Author response image 1.

      Figs. 2B & 4B in the original manuscript) in both studies.

       

      (3d) The interpretation of the main OXT results needs to be more cautious. According to the operationalization, "hyperaltruistic" is the reduction of pain of others (higher % of choosing the less painful option) relative to the self. But relative to the placebo (as baseline), OXT did not increase the % of choosing the less painful option for others, rather, it decreased the % of choosing the less painful option for themselves. In other words, the degree of reducing other's pain is the same under OXT and placebo, but the degree of benefiting self-interest is reduced under OXT. I think this needs to be unpacked, and some of the wording needs to be changed. I am not very familiar with the OXT literature, but I believe it is very important to differentiate whether OXT is doing something on self-oriented actions vs other-oriented actions. Relatedly, for results such as that in Figure 5A, it would be helpful to not only look at the difference but also the actual magnitude of the sensitivity to the shocks, for self and others, under OXT and placebo.

      We thank the reviewer for this thoughtful comment. As the reviewer correctly pointed out, “hyperaltruism” can be defined as “higher % of choosing the less painful option to the others relative to the self”. Closer examination of the results showed that both the degrees of reducing other’s pain as well as reducing their own pain decreased under OXT (Figure 4A). More specifically, our results do not support the claim that “In other words, the degree of reducing others’ pain is the same under OXT and placebo, but the degree of benefiting self-interest is reduced under OXT.” Instead, the results show a significant reduction in the choice of less painful option under OXT treatment for both the self and other conditions (the interaction effect of OXT vs. placebo and self vs. other: F<sub>1.45</sub>= 16.812, P < 0.001, η<sup>2</sup> = 0.272, simple effect OXT vs. placebo in the self- condition: F<sub>1.45</sub>=59.332, P < 0.001, η<sup>2</sup> = 0.569, OXT vs. placebo in the other-condition: F<sub>1.45</sub>= 14.626, P < 0.001, η<sup>2</sup> = 0.245, repeated ANOVA, see Figure 4A).

      We also performed mixed-effect logistic regression analyses where subjects’ choices were regressed against  and  in different valences (gain vs. loss) and recipients (self vs. other) conditions in both studies 1 & 2 (Supplementary Figs. 1 & 6). As we replot supplementary Fig. 6 and panel B (included as Supplementary Fig. 8 in the supplementary materials) in the above figure, we found a significant treatment × ∆<sub>s</sub> (differences in shock magnitude between the more and less painful options) interaction effect β=0.136±0.029P < =0.001, 95% CI=[-0.192, -0.079]), indicating that subject’s sensitivities towards pain were indeed different between the placebo and OXT treatments for both self and other conditions. Furthermore, the significant four-way ∆<sub>s</sub> × treatment (OXT vs. Placebo) × context (gain vs. loss) × recipient (self vs. other) interaction effect (β=0.125±0.053, P=0.018 95% CI=[0.022, 0.228]) in the regression analysis, followed by significant simple effects (In the OXT treatment: ∆<sub>s</sub> × recipient effect in the gain context: F<sub>1.45</sub>= 7.622, P < 0.008, η<sup>2</sup> = 0.145; ∆<sub>s</sub> × recipient effect in the loss context: F<sub>1.45</sub>= 7.966, P 0.007, η<sup>2</sup> = 0.150, suggested that under OXT treatment, participants showed a greater sensitivity toward ∆<sub>s</sub> (see asterisks in the OXT condition in panel B) in the other condition than the self-condition, thus restoring the hyperaltruistic behavior in loss context.

      As the reviewer suggested, OXT’s effect on hyperaltruism does manifest separately on subjects’ harm sensitivities on self- and other-oriented actions. We followed the reviewer’s suggestions and examined the actual magnitude of the sensitivities to shocks for both the self and other treatments (panel B in the figure above). It’s clear that the administration of OXT (compared to the Placebo treatment, panel B in the figure above) significantly reduced participants’ pain sensitivity (treatment × ∆<sub>s</sub>: β=-0.136±0.029, P < 0.001, 95% CI=[-0.192,-0.079]), yet also restored the harm sensitivity patterns in both the gain and loss conditions. These results are included in the supplementary figures (6 & 8) as well as in the main texts.

      Recommendations:

      (1) For Figures 2A-B, it would be great to calculate the correlation separately for gain and loss, as in other figures.

      We speculate that the reviewer is referring to Figures 3A & B. Sorry that we did not present the correlations separately for the gain and loss contexts because the correlation between an individual’s IH (instrumental harm), IB (impartial beneficence) and hyperaltruistic preferences was not significantly modulated by the contextual factors. The interaction effects in both Figs. 3A & B and Supplementary Fig.5 (also see Table S1& S2) are as following: Study1 valence × IH effect: β=0.016±0.022, t<sub>152</sub>=0.726, P=0.469; valence × IB effect: β=0.004±0.031, t<sub>152</sub>=0.115, P=0.908; Study2 placebo condition: valence × IH effect: β=0.018±0.024, t<sub>84</sub>=0.030 P=0.463; valence × IB effect: β=0.051±0.030, t<sub>84</sub>=1.711, P=0.702. We have added these statistics to the main text following the reviewer’s suggestions.

      (2) "by randomly drawing a shock increment integer ∆s (from 1 to 19) such that [...] did not exceed 20 (𝑆+ {less than or equal to} 20)." I am not sure if a random drawing following a uniform distribution can guarantee S is smaller than 20. More details are needed. Same for the monetary magnitude.

      We are sorry for the lack of clarity in the method description. As for the task design, we followed adopted the original design from previous literature (Crockett et al., 2014, 2017). More specifically:

      “Specifically, each trial was determined by a combination of the differences of shocks (Δs, ranging from 1 to 19, with increment of 1) and money (Δm, ranging from ¥0.2 to ¥19.8, with increment of ¥0.2) between the two options, resulting in a total of 19×99=1881 pairs of [Δs, Δm]. for each trial. To ensure the trials were suitable for most subjects, we evenly distributed the desired ratio Δm / (Δs + Δm) between 0.01 and 0.99 across 60 trials for each condition. For each trial, we selected the closest [Δs, Δm] pair from the [Δs, Δm] pool to the specific Δm / (Δs + Δm) ratio, which was then used to determine the actual money and shock amounts of two options. The shock amount (S<sub>less</sub>) for the less painful option was an integer drawn from the discrete uniform distribution [1-19], constraint by S<sub>less</sub> + ∆s < 20. Similarly, the money amount (M<sub>less</sub>) for the less painful option was drawn from a discrete uniform distribution [¥0.2 - ¥19.8], with the constraint of M<sub>less</sub> + ∆m < 20. Once the S<sub>less</sub>and M<sub>less</sub> were selected, the shock (S<sub>more</sub>) and money (M<sub>more</sub>) magnitudes for the more painful option were calculated as: S<sub>more</sub> = S<sub>less</sub> + ∆s, M<sub>more</sub> = M<sub>less</sub> + ∆m”  

      We have added these details to the methods section (Lines 520-533).

      Reviewer #2:

      (1) The theoretical hypothesis needs to be better justified. There are studies addressing the neurobiological mechanism of hyperaltruistic tendency, which the authors unfortunately skipped entirely.

      Also in recommendation #1:

      (1) In the Introduction, the authors claim that "the mechanistic account of the hyperaltruistic phenomenon remains unknown". I think this is too broad of a criticism and does not do justice to prior work that does provide some mechanistic account of this phenomenon. In particular, I was surprised that the authors did not mention at all a relevant fMRI study that investigates the neural mechanism underlying hyperaltruistic tendency (Crockett et al., 2017, Nature Neuroscience). There, the researchers found that individual differences in hyperaltruistic tendency in the same type of moral decision-making task is better explained by reduced neural responses to ill-gotten money (Δm in the Other condition) in the brain reward system, rather than heightened neural responses to others' harm. Moreover, such neural response pattern is related to how an immoral choice would be judged (i.e., blamed) by the community. Since the brain reward system is consistently involved in Oxytocin's role in social cognition and decision-making (e.g., Dolen & Malenka, 2014, Biological Psychiatry), it is important to discuss the hypothesis and results of the present research in the context of this literature.

      We totally agree with the reviewer that the expression “mechanistic account of the hyperaltruistic phenomenon remains unknown” in our original manuscript can be misleading to the audience. Indeed, we were aware of the major findings in the field and cited all the seminal work of hyperaltruism and its related neural mechanism (Crockett et al., 2014, 2015, 2017). We have changed the texts in the introduction to better reflect this point and added further discussion as to how oxytocin might play a role:

      “For example, it was shown that the hyperaltruistic preference modulated neural representations of the profit gained from harming others via the functional connectivity between the lateral prefrontal cortex, a brain area involved in moral norm violation, and profit sensitive brain regions such as the dorsal striatum6.” (Lines 41~45)

      “Oxytocin has been shown to play a critical role in social interactions such as maternal attachment, pair bonding, consociate attachment and aggression in a variety of animal models[42,43]. Humans are endowed with higher cognitive and affective capacities and exhibit far more complex social cognitive patterns[44]. ” (Lines 86~90)

      (2) There are some important inconsistencies between the preregistration and the actual data collection/analysis, which the authors did not justify.

      Also in recommendations:

      (4) It is laudable that the authors pre-registered the procedure and key analysis of the Oxytocin study and determined the sample size beforehand. However, in the preregistration, the authors claimed that they would recruit 30 participants for Experiment 1 and 60 for Experiment 2, without justification. In the paper, they described a "prior power analysis", which deviated from their preregistration. It is OK to deviate from preregistration, but this needs to be explicitly mentioned and addressed (why the deviation occurred, why the reported approach was justifiable, etc.).

      We sincerely appreciate the reviewer’s thorough assessment of our manuscript. In the more exploratory study 1, we found that the loss decision context effectively diminished subjects’ hyperaltruistic preference. Based on this finding, we pre-registered study 2 and hypothesized that: 1) The administration of OXT may salvage subject’s hyperaltruistic preference in the loss context; 2) The administration of OXT may reduce subjects’ sensitivities towards electric shocks (but not necessarily their moral preference), due to the well-established results relating OXT to enhanced empathy for others (Barchi-Ferreira & Osório, 2021; Radke et al., 2013) and the processing of negative stimuli(Evans et al., 2010; Kirsch et al., 2005; Wu et al., 2020); and 3) The OXT effect might be context specific, depending on the particular combination of valence (gain vs. loss) and shock recipient (self vs. other) (Abu-Akel et al., 2015; Kapetaniou et al., 2021; Ma et al., 2015).

      As our results suggested, the administration of OXT indeed restored subjects’ hyperaltruistic preference (confirming hypothesis 1, Figure 4A). Also, OXT decreased subjects’ sensitivities towards electric shocks in both the gain and loss conditions (supplementary Fig. 6 and supplementary Fig. 8), consistent with our second hypothesis. We must admit that our hypothesis 3 was rather vague, since a seminal study clearly demonstrated the context-dependent effect of OXT in human cooperation and conflict depending on the group membership of the subjects (De Dreu et al., 2010, 2020). Although our results partially validated our hypothesis 3 (supplementary Fig. 6), we did not make specific predictions as to the direction and the magnitude of the OXT effect.

      The main inconsistency is related to the sample size. When we carried out study 1, we recruited both male and female subjects. After we identified the context effect on the hyperaltruistic preference, we decided to pre-register and perform study 2 (the OXT study). We originally made a rough estimate of 60 male subjects for study 2. While conducting study 2, we also went through the literature of OXT effect on social behavior and realized that the actual subject number around 45 might be enough to detect the main effect of OXT. Therefore, we settled on the number of 46 (study 2) reported in the manuscript. Correspondingly, we increased the subject number in study 1 to the final number of 80 (40 males) to make sure the subject number is enough to detect a small-to-medium effect, as well as to have a fair comparison between study 1 and 2 (roughly equal number of male subjects). It should be noted that although we only reported all the subjects (male & female) results of study 1 in the manuscript, the main results remain very similar if we only focus on the results of male subjects in study 1 (see the figure below). We believe that these results, together with the placebo treatment group results in study 2 (male only), confirmed the validity of our original finding.

      Author response image 2.

      Author response image 3.

      We have included additional texts (Lines 447 ~ 452) in the Methods section for the discrepancy between the preregistered and actual sample sizes in the revised manuscript:

      “It should be noted that in preregistration we originally planned to recruit 60 male subjects for Study 2 but ended up recruiting 46 male subjects (mean age =  years) based on the sample size reported in previous oxytocin studies[57,69]. Additionally, a power analysis suggested that the sample size > 44 should be enough to detect a small to median effect size of oxytocin (Cohen’s d=0.24, α=0.05, β=0.8) using a 2 × 2 × 2 within-subject design[76].”

      (3) Some of the exploratory analysis seems underpowered (e.g., large multiple regression models with only about 40 participants).

      We thank the reviewer’s comments and appreciate the concern that the sample size would be an issue affecting the results reliability in multiple regression analysis.

      In Fig. 2, the multiple regression analyses were conducted after we observed a valence-dependent effect on hyperaltruism (Fig. 2A) and the regression was constructed accordingly:

      Choice ~ ∆s *context*recipient + ∆m *context*recipient+(1+ ∆s *context*recipient + ∆s*context*recipient | subject)

      Where ∆s and ∆m indicate the shock level and monetary reward difference between the more and loss painful options, context as the monetary valence (gain vs. loss) and recipient as the identity of the shock recipient (self vs. other).

      Since we have 240 trials for each subject and a total of 80 subjects in Study 1, we believe that this is a reasonable regression analysis to perform.

      In Fig. 3, the multiple regression analyses were indeed exploratory. More specifically, we ran 3 multiple linear regressions:

      hyperaltruism~EC*context+IH*context+IB*context

      Relative harm sensitivity~ EC*context+IH*context+IB*context

      Relative money sensitivity~ EC*context+IH*context+IB*context

      Where Hyperaltruism is defined as κ<sub>other</sub> - κ<sub>self</sub>, Relative harm sensitivity as otherβ<sub>∆s</sub> - selfβ<sub>∆s</sub> and Relative monetary sensitivity as otherβ<sub>∆m</sub> - selfβ<sub>∆m</sub>. EC (empathic concern), IH (instrumental harm) and IB (impartial beneficence) were subjects’ scores from corresponding questionnaires.

      For the first regression, we tested whether EC, IH and IB scores were related to hyperaltruism and it should be noted that this was tested on 80 subjects (Study 1). After we identified the effect of IH on hyperaltruism, we ran the following two regressions. The reason we still included IB and EC as predictors in these two regression analyses was to remove potential confounds caused by EC and IB since previous research indicated that IB, IH and EC could be correlated (Kahane et al., 2018).

      In study 2, we performed the following regression analyses again to validate our results (Placebo treatment in study 2 should have similar results as found in study 1).

      Relative harm sensitivity~ EC*context+IH*context+IB*context

      Relative money sensitivity~ EC*context+IH*context+IB*context

      Again, we added IB and EC only to control for the nuance effects by the covariates. As indicated in Fig. 5 C-D, the placebo condition in study 2 replicated our previous findings in study 1 and OXT administration effectively removed the interaction effect between IH and valence (gain vs. loss) on subjects’ relative harm sensitivity.

      To more objectively present our data and results, we have changed the texts in the results section and pointed out that the regression analysis:

      hyperaltruism~EC*context+IH*context+IB*context

      was exploratory (Lines 186-192).

      “We tested how hyperaltruism was related to both IH and IB across decision contexts using an exploratory multiple regression analysis. Moral preference, defined as κ<sub>other</sub> - κ<sub>self</sub>, was negatively associated with IH (β=-0.031±0.011, t<sub>156</sub>=-2.784, P =0.006) but not with IB (β=0.008±0.016, t<sub>156</sub>=0.475, P=0.636) across gain and loss contexts, reflecting a general connection between moral preference and IH (Fig. 3A & B).”

      (4) Inaccurate conceptualization of utilitarian psychology and the questionnaire used to measure it.

      Also in recommendations:

      (2) Throughout the paper, the authors placed lots of weight on individual differences in utilitarian psychology and the Oxford Utilitarianism Scale (OUS). I am not sure this is the best individual difference measure in this context. I don't see a conceptual fit between the psychological construct that OUS reflects, and the key psychological processes underlying the behaviors in the present study. As far as I understand it, the conceptual core of utilitarian psychology that OUS captures is the maximization of greater goods. Neither the Instrumental Harm (IH) component nor the Impartial Beneficence (IB) component reflects a tradeoff between the personal interests of the decision-making agent and a moral principle. The IH component is about the endorsement of harming a smaller number of individuals for the benefit of a larger number of individuals. The IB component is about treating self, close others, and distant others equally. However, the behavioral task used in this study is neither about distributing harm between a smaller number of others and a larger number of others nor about benefiting close or distant others. The fact that IH showed some statistical association with the behavioral tendency in the present data set could be due to the conceptual overlap between IH and an individual's tendency to inflict harm (e.g., psychopathy; Table 7 in Kahane et al., 2018, which the authors cited). I urge the authors to justify more why they believe that conceptually OUS is an appropriate individual difference measure in the present study, and if so, interpret their results in a clearer and justifiable manner (taking into account the potential confound of harm tendency/psychopathy).

      We thank the reviewer for the thoughtful comment and agree that “IH component is about the endorsement of harming a smaller number of individuals for the benefit of a larger number of individuals. The IB component is about treating self, close others, and distant others equally”. As we mentioned in the previous response to the reviewer, we first ran an exploratory multiple linear regression analysis of hyperaltruistic preference (κ<sub>other</sub> - κ<sub>self</sub>) against IB and IH in study 1 based on the hypothesis that the reduction of hyperaltruistic preference in the loss condition might be due to 1) subjects’ altered altitudes between IB and hyperaltruistic preference between the gain and loss conditions, and/or 2) the loss condition changed how the moral norm was perceived and therefore affected the correlation between IH and hyperaltruistic preference. As Fig. 3 shows, we did not find a significant IB effect on hyperaltruistic preference (κ<sub>other</sub> - κ<sub>self</sub>), nor on the relative harm or money sensitivity (supplementary Fig. 3). These results excluded the possibility that subjects with higher IB might treat self and others more equally and therefore show less hyperaltruistic preference. On the other hand, we found a strong correlation between hyperaltruistic preference and IH (Fig. 3A): subjects with higher IH scores showed less hyperaltruistic preference. Since the hyperaltruistic preference (κ<sub>other</sub> - κ<sub>self</sub>) is a compound variable and we further broke it down to subjects’ relative sensitivity to harm and money (other β<sub>∆s</sub> - self β<sub>∆s</sub> and other β<sub>∆m</sub> - self β<sub>∆m</sub>, respectively). The follow up regression analyses revealed that the correlation between subjects’ relative harm sensitivity and IH was altered by the decision contexts (gain vs. loss, Fig. 3C-D). These results are consistent with our hypothesis that for subjects to engage in the utilitarian calculation, they should first realize that there is a moral dilemma (harming others to make monetary gain in the gain condition). When there is less perceived moral conflict (due to the framing of decision context as avoiding loss in the loss condition), the correlation between subjects’ relative harm sensitivity and IH became insignificant (Fig. 3C). It is worth noting that these results were further replicated in the placebo condition of study 2, further indicating the role of OXT is to affect how the decision context is morally framed.

      The reviewer also raised an interesting possibility that the correlation between subject’s behavioral tendency and IH may be confounded by the fact that IH is also correlated with other traits such as psychopathy. Indeed, in the Kahane et al., 2018 paper, the authors showed that IH was associated with subclinical psychopathy in a lay population. Although we only collected and included IB and Empathic concern (EC) scores as control variables and in principle could not rule out the influence of psychopathy, we argue it is unlikely the case. First, psychopaths by definition “only care about their own good” (Kahane et al., 2018). However, subjects in our studies, as well as in previous research, showed greater aversion to harming others (compared to harming themselves) in the gain conditions. This is opposite to the prediction of psychopathy. Even in the loss condition, subjects showed similar levels of aversion to harming others (vs. harming themselves), indicating that our subjects valuated their own and others’ well-being similarly. Second, although there appears to be an association between utilitarian judgement and psychopathy(Glenn et al., 2010; Kahane et al., 2015), the fact that people also possess a form of universal or impartial beneficence in their utilitarian judgements suggest psychopathy alone is not a sufficient variable explaining subjects’ hyperaltruistic behavior.

      We have thus rewritten part of the results to clarify our rationale for using the Oxford Utilitarianism Scale (especially the IH and IB) to establish the relationship between moral traits and subjects’ decision preference (Lines 212-215):

      “Furthermore, our results are consistent with the claim that profiting from inflicting pains on another person (IH) is inherently deemed immoral1. Hyperaltruistic preference, therefore, is likely to be associated with subjects’ IH dispositions.”

      (3) Relatedly, in the Discussion, the authors mentioned "the money-pain trade-off task, similar to the well-known trolley dilemma". I am not sure if this statement is factually accurate because the "well-known trolley dilemma" is about a disinterested third-party weighing between two moral requirements - "greatest good for the greatest number" (utilitarianism) and "do no harm" (Kantian/deontology), not between a moral requirement and one's own monetary interest (which is the focus of the present study). The analogy would be more appropriate if the task required the participants to trade off between, for example, harming one person in exchange for a charitable donation, as a recent study employed (Siegel et al., 2022, A computational account of how individuals resolve the dilemma of dirty money. Scientific reports). I urge the authors to go through their use of "utilitarian/utilitarianism” in the paper and make sure their usage aligns with the definition of the concept and the philosophical implications.

      We thank the reviewer for prompting us to think over the difference between our task and the trolley dilemma. Indeed, the trolley dilemma refers to a disinterested third-party’s decision between two moral requirements, namely, the utilitarianism and deontology. In our study, when the shock recipient was “other”, our task could be interpreted as either the decision between “moral norm of no harm (deontology) and one’s self-interest maximization (utilitarian)”, or a decision between “greatest good for both parties (utilitarian) vs. do no harm (deontology)”, though the latter interpretation typically requires differential weighing of own benefits versus the benefits of others(Fehr & Schmidt, 1999; Saez et al., 2015). In fact, it could be argued that the utilitarianism account applies not only to the third party’s well-being, but also to our own well-being, or to “that of those near or dear to us” (Kahane et al., 2018).

      We acknowledge that there may lack a direct analogy between our task and the trolley dilemma and therefore have deleted the trolley example in the discussion.

      (5) Related to the above point, the sample size of Study 2 was calculated based on the main effect of oxytocin. However, the authors also reported several regression models that seem to me more like exploratory analyses. Their sample size may not be sufficient for these analyses. The authors should: a) explicitly distinguish between their hypothesis-driven analysis and exploratory analysis; b) report achieved power of their analysis.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s thorough reading of our manuscript. Following the reviewer’s suggestions, we have explicitly stated in the revised manuscript which analyses were exploratory, and which were hypothesis driven. Following the reviewer’s request, we added the achieved power into the main texts (Lines 274-279):

      “The effect size (Cohen’s f<sup>2</sup>) for this exploratory analysis was calculated to be 0.491 and 0.379 for the placebo and oxytocin conditions, respectively. The post hoc power analysis with a significance level of α = 0.05, 7 regressors (IH, IB, EC, decision context, IH×context, IB×context, and EC×context), and sample size of N = 46 yielded achieved power of 0.910 (placebo treatment) and 0.808 (oxytocin treatment).”

      (6) Do the authors collect reaction times (RT) information? Did the decision context and oxytocin modulate RT? Based on their procedure, it seems that the authors adopted a speeded response task, therefore the RT may reflect some psychological processes independent of choice. It is also possible (and recommended) that the authors use the drift-diffusion model to quantify latent psychological processes underlying moral decision-making. It would be interesting to see if their manipulations have any impact on those latent psychological processes, in addition to explicit choice, which is the endpoint product of the latent psychological processes. There are some examples of applying DDM to this task, which the authors could refer to if they decide to go down this route (Yu et al, 2021, How peer influence shapes value computation in moral decision-making. Cognition.)

      We did collect the RT information for this experiment. As demonstrated in the figure below, participants exhibited significantly longer RT in the loss context compared to the gain context (Study1: the main effect of decision context: F<sub>1,79</sub>=20.043, P < 0.001, η<sup>2</sup> =0.202; Study2-placebo: F<sub>1.45</sub>=17.177, P < 0.001, η<sup>2</sup> =0.276). In addition to this effect of context, decisions were significantly slower in the other-condition compared to the self-condition

      (Study1: the main effect of recipient: F<sub>1,79</sub>=4.352, P < 0.040, η<sup>2</sup> =0.052; Study2-placebo: F<sub>1,45</sub>=5.601, P < 0.022, η<sup>2</sup> =0.111) which replicates previous research findings (Crockett et al., 2014). However, the differences in response time between recipients was not modulated by decision context (Study1: context × recipient interaction: F<sub>1,79</sub>=1.538, P < 0.219, η<sup>2</sup> =0.019; Study2-placebo: F<sub>1,45</sub>=2.631, P < 0.112, η<sup>2</sup> =0.055). Additionally, the results in the oxytocin study (study 2) revealed no evidence supporting any effect of oxytocin on reaction time. Neither the main effect (treatment: placebo vs. oxytocin) nor the interaction effect of oxytocin on response time was statistically significant (main effect of OXT treatment: F<sub>1,45</sub>=2.380, P < 0.230, η<sup>2</sup> =0.050; treatment × context: F<sub>1,45</sub>=2.075, P < 0.157η<sup>2</sup> =0.044; treatment × recipient: F<sub>1,45</sub>=0.266, P < 0.609, η<sup>2</sup> =0.006; treatment × context × recipient: F<sub>1,45</sub>=2.909, P < 0.095, η<sup>2</sup> =0.061).;

      Author response image 4.

      We also agree that it would be interesting to also investigate how the OXT might impact the dynamics of the decision process using a drift-diffusion model (DDM). However, we have already showed in the original manuscript that the OXT increased subjects’ relative harm sensitivities. If a canonical DDM is adopted here, then such an OXT effect is more likely to correspond to the increased drift rate for the relative harm sensitivity, which we feel still aligns with the current framework in general. In future studies, including further manipulations such as time pressure might be a more comprehensive approach to investigate the effect of OXT on DDM related decision variables such as attribute drift rate, initial bias, decision threshold and attribute synchrony.

      (7) This is just a personal preference, but I would avoid metaphoric language in a scientific paper (e.g., rescue, salvage, obliterate). Plain, neutral English terms can express the same meaning clearly (e.g., restore, vanish, eliminate).

      Again, we thank the reviewer for the suggestion and have since modified the terms.

      Reviewer #3:

      The primary weakness of the paper concerns its framing. Although it purports to be measuring "hyper-altruism" it does not provide evidence to support why any of the behavior being measured is extreme enough to warrant the modifier "hyper" (and indeed throughout I believe the writing tends toward hyperbole, using, e.g., verbs like "obliterate" rather than "reduce"). More seriously, I do not believe that the task constitutes altruism, but rather the decision to engage, or not engage, in instrumental aggression.

      We agree with the reviewer (and reviewer # 2) that plain and clear English should be used to describe our results and have since modified those terms.

      However, the term “hyperaltruism”, which is the main theme of our study, was originally proposed by a seminal paper (Crockett et al., 2014) and has since been widely adopted in related studies (Crockett et al., 2014, 2015, 2017; Volz et al., 2017; Zhan et al., 2020). The term “hyperaltruism” was introduced to emphasize the difference from altruism (Chen et al., 2024; FeldmanHall et al., 2015; Hu et al., 2021; Hutcherson et al., 2015; Lockwood et al., 2017; Xiong et al., 2020). Hyperaltruism does not indicate extreme altruism. Instead, it simply reflects the fact that “we are more willing to sacrifice gains to spare others from harm than to spare ourselves from harm” (Volz et al., 2017). In other words, altruism refers to people’s unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others, and hyperaltruism concerns subject’s own cost-benefit preference as the reference point and highlights the “additional” altruistic preference when considering other’s welfare. For example, in the altruistic experimental design, altruism is characterized by the degree to which subjects take other people’s welfare into account (left panel). However, in a typical hyperaltruism task design (right panel), hyperaltruistic preference is operationally defined as the difference (κ<sub>other</sub> - κ<sub>self</sub>) between the degrees to which subjects value others’ harm (κ<sub>other</sub>) and their own harm (κ<sub>self</sub>).

      Author response image 5.

      I found it surprising that a paradigm that entails deciding to hurt or not hurt someone else for personal benefit (whether acquiring a financial gain or avoiding a loss) would be described as measuring "altruism." Deciding to hurt someone for personal benefit is the definition of instrumental aggression. I did not see that in any of the studies was there a possibility of acting to benefit the other participant in any condition. Altruism is not equivalent to refraining from engaging in instrumental aggression. True altruism would be to accept shocks to the self for the other's benefit (e.g., money).  The interpretation of this task as assessing instrumental aggression is supported by the fact that only the Instrumental Harm subscale of the OUS was associated with outcomes in the task, but not the Impartial Benevolence subscale. By contrast, the IB subscale is the one more consistently associated with altruism (e.g,. Kahane et al 2018; Amormino at al, 2022) I believe it is important for scientific accuracy for the paper, including the title, to be re-written to reflect what it is testing.

      Again, as we mentioned in the previous response, hyperaltruism is a term coined almost a decade ago and has since been widely adopted in the research field. We are afraid that switching such a term would be more likely to cause confusion (instead of clarity) among audience.

      Also, from the utilitarian perspective, the gain or loss (or harm) occurred to someone else is aligned on the same dimension and there is no discontinuity between gains and losses. Therefore, taking actions to avoid someone else’s loss can also be viewed as altruistic behavior, similar to choices increasing other’s welfare (Liu et al., 2020).

      Relatedly: in the introduction I believe it would be important to discuss the non-symmetry of moral obligations related to help/harm--we have obligations not to harm strangers but no obligation to help strangers. This is another reason I do not think the term "hyper altruism" is a good description for this task--given it is typically viewed as morally obligatory not to harm strangers, choosing not to harm them is not "hyper" altruistic (and again, I do not view it as obviously altruism at all).

      We agree with the reviewer’s point that we have the moral obligations not to harm others but no obligation to help strangers (Liu et al., 2020). In fact, this is exactly what we argued in our manuscript: by switching the decision context from gains to losses, subjects were less likely to perceive the decisions as “harming others”. Furthermore, after the administration of OXT, making decisions in both the gain and loss contexts were more perceived by subjects as harming others (Fig. 6A).

      The framing of the role of OT also felt incomplete. In introducing the potential relevance of OT to behavior in this task, it is important to pull in evidence from non-human animals on origins of OT as a hormone selected for its role in maternal care and defense (including defensive aggression). The non-human animal literature regarding the effects of OT is on the whole much more robust and definitive than the human literature. The evidence is abundant that OT motivates the defensive care of offspring of all kinds. My read of the present OT findings is that they increase participants' willingness to refrain from shocking strangers even when incurring a loss (that is, in a context where the participant is weighing harm to themselves versus harm to the other). It will be important to explain why OT would be relevant to refraining from instrumental aggression, again, drawing on the non-human animal literature.

      We thank the reviewer’s comments and agree that the current understanding of the link between our results of OT with animal literature can be at best described as vague and intriguing. Current literature on OT in animal research suggests that the nucleus accumbens (NAc) oxytocin might play the critical role in social cognition and reinforcing social interactions (Dölen et al., 2013; Dölen & Malenka, 2014; Insel, 2010). Though much insight has already been gained from animal studies, in humans, social interactions can take a variety of different forms, and the consociate recognition can also be rather dynamic. For example, male human participants with self-administered OT showed higher trust and cooperation towards in-group members but more defensive aggression towards out-group members (De Dreu et al., 2010). In another human study, participants administered with OT showed more coordinated out-group attack behavior, suggesting that OT might increase in-group efficiency at the cost of harming out-group members (Zhang et al., 2019). It is worth pointing out that in both experiments, the participant’s group membership was artificially assigned, thus highlighting the context-dependent nature of OT effect in humans.

      In our experiment, more complex and higher-level social cognitive processes such as moral framing and moral perception are involved, and OT seems to play an important role in affecting these processes. Therefore, we admit that this study, like the ones mentioned above, is rather hard to find non-human animal counterpart, unfortunately. Instead of relating OT to instrumental aggression, we aimed to provide a parsimonious framework to explain why the “hyperaltruism” disappeared in the loss condition, and, with the OT administration, reappeared in both the gain and loss conditions while also considering the effects of other relevant variables.  

      We concur with the reviewer’s comments about the importance of animal research and have since added the following paragraph into the revised manuscript (Line 86~90) as well as in the discussion:

      “Oxytocin has been shown to play a critical role in social interactions such as maternal attachment, pair bonding, consociate attachment and aggression in a variety of animal models[42,43]. Humans are endowed with higher cognitive and affective capacities and exhibit far more complex social cognitive patterns[44].”

      Another important limitation is the use of only male participants in Study 2. This was not an essential exclusion. It should be clear throughout sections of the manuscript that this study's effects can be generalized only to male participants.

      We thank the reviewer’s comments. Prior research has shown sex differences in oxytocin’s effects (Fischer-Shofty et al., 2013; Hoge et al., 2014; Lynn et al., 2014; Ma et al., 2016; MacDonald, 2013). Furthermore, with the potential confounds of OT effect due to the menstrual cycles and potential pregnancy in female subjects, most human OT studies have only recruited male subjects (Berends et al., 2019; De Dreu et al., 2010; Fischer-Shofty et al., 2010; Ma et al., 2016; Zhang et al., 2019). We have modified our manuscript to emphasize that study 2 only recruited male subjects.

      Recommendations:

      I believe the authors have provided an interesting and valuable dataset related to the willingness to engage in instrumental aggression - this is not the authors' aim, although also an important aim. Future researchers aiming to build on this paper would benefit from it being framed more accurately.

      Thus, I believe the paper must be reframed to accurately describe the nature of the task as assessing instrumental aggression. This is also an important goal, as well-designed laboratory models of instrumental aggression are somewhat lacking.

      Please see our response above that to have better connections with previous research, we believe that the term hyperaltruism might align better with the main theme for this study.

      The research literature on other aggression tasks should also be brought in, as I believe these are more relevant to the present study than research studies on altruism that are primarily donation-type tasks. It should be added to the limitations of how different aggression in a laboratory task such as this one is from real-world immoral forms of aggression. Arguably, aggression in a laboratory task in which all participants are taking part voluntarily under a defined set of rules, and in which aggression constrained by rules is mutual, is similar to aggression in sports, which is not considered immoral. Whether responses in this task would generalize to immoral forms of aggression cannot be determined without linking responses in the task to some real-world outcome.

      We agree with the reviewer that “aggression in a lab task …. is similar to aggression in sports”. Our starting point was to investigate the boundary conditions for the hyperaltruism (though we don’t deny that there is an aggression component in hyperaltruism, given the experiment design we used). In other words, the dependent variable we were interested in was the difference between “other” and “self” aggression, not the aggression itself. Our results showed that by switching the decision context from the monetary gain environment to the loss condition, human participants were willing to bear similar amounts of monetary loss to spare others and themselves from harm. That is, hyperaltruism disappeared in the loss condition. We interpreted this result as the loss condition prompted subjects to adopt a different moral framework (help vs. harm, Fig. 6A) and subjects were less influenced by their instrumental harm personality trait due to the change of moral framework (Fig. 3C). In the following study (study 2), we further tested this hypothesis and verified that the administration of OT indeed increased subjects’ perception of the task as harming others for both gain and loss conditions (Fig. 6A), and such moral perception mediated the relationship between subject’s personality traits (instrumental harm) and their relative harm sensitivities (the difference of aggression between the other- and self-conditions). We believe the moral perception framework and that OT directly modulates moral perception better account for subjects’ context-dependent choices than hypothesizing OT’s context-dependent modulation effects on aggression.

      The language should also be toned down--the use of phrases like "hyper altruism" (without independent evidence to support that designation) and "obliterate" rather than "reduce" or "eliminate" are overly hyperbolic.

      We have changed terms such as “obliterate” and “eliminate” to plain English, as the reviewer suggested.

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    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This important work identifies a previously uncharacterized capacity for songbirds to recover vocal targets even without sensory experience. While the evidence supporting this claim is solid, with innovative experiments exploring vocal plasticity in deafened birds, additional behavioral controls and analyses are necessary to shore up the main claims. If improved, this work has the potential for broad relevance to the fields of vocal and motor learning.

      We were able to address the requests for additional behavioral controls about the balancing of the groups (reviewer 1) and the few individual birds that showed a different behavior (reviewer 2) without collecting any further data. See our detailed replies below.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Zai et al test if songbirds can recover the capacity to sing auditory targets without singing experience or sensory feedback. Past work showed that after the pitch of targeted song syllables is driven outside of birds' preferred target range with external reinforcement, birds revert to baseline (i.e. restore their song to their target). Here the authors tested the extent to which this restoration occurs in muted or deafened birds. If these birds can restore, this would suggest an internal model that allows for sensory-to-motor mapping. If they cannot, this would suggest that learning relies entirely on feedback-dependent mechanisms, e.g. reinforcement learning (RL). The authors find that deafened birds exhibit moderate but significant restoration, consistent with the existence of a previously under-appreciated internal model in songbirds.

      Strengths:

      The experimental approach of studying vocal plasticity in deafened or muted birds is innovative, technically difficult, and perfectly suited for the question of feedback-independent learning. The finding in Figure 4 that deafened birds exhibit subtle but significant plasticity toward restoration of their pre-deafening target is surprising and important for the songbird and vocal learning fields, in general.

      Weaknesses:

      The evidence and analyses related to the directed plasticity in deafened birds are confusing, and the magnitude of the plasticity is far less than the plasticity observed in control birds with intact feedback. The authors acknowledge this difference in a two-system model of vocal plasticity, but one wonders why the feedback-independent model, which could powerfully enhance learning speed, is weak in this songbird system.

      We fully agree with the reviewer. This surprising weakness applies to birds’ inability rather than our approach for characterizing it.

      There remains some confusion about the precise pitch-change methods used to study the deafened birds, including the possibility that a critical cohort of birds was not suitably balanced in a way where deafened birds were tested on their ability to implement both pitch increases and decreases toward target restoration.

      Both deaf groups were balanced: (dLO and WNd) were balanced in that half of the birds (5/10 WNm and 4/8 dLO) shifted their pitch up (thus target restoration corresponded to decreasing pitch) and half of the birds (5/10 WNd and 4/8 dLO) shifted their pitch down (thus target restoration corresponded to increasing pitch), see Methods.

      To clarify the precise pitch-change method used, we added to the methods an explanation about why we used the sensitivity index 𝒅′ in Fig. 4:

      We used sensitivity 𝒅′ relative to the last 2 h of WN/LO instead of NRP because we wanted to detect a pitch change, which is the realm of detection theory, i.e. 𝒅′. Furthermore, by measuring local changes in pitch relative to the last 2 h of WN/LO reinforcement, our measurements are only minimally affected by the amount of reinforcement learning that might have occurred during this 2 h time window — choosing an earlier or longer window would have blended reinforced pitch changes into our estimates. Last but not least, changes in the way in which we normalized 𝒅’ values — dividing by 𝑺𝑩, — or using the NRP relative to the last 2 h of WN/LO did not qualitatively change the results shown in Fig. 4D.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This paper investigates the role of motor practice and sensory feedback when a motor action returns to a learned or established baseline. Adult male zebra finches perform a stereotyped, learned vocalization (song). It is possible to shift the pitch of particular syllables away from the learned baseline pitch using contingent white noise reinforcement. When the reinforcement is stopped, birds will return to their baseline over time. During the return, they often sing hundreds of renditions of the song. However, whether motor action, sensory feedback, or both during singing is necessary to return to baseline is unknown.

      Previous work has shown that there is covert learning of the pitch shift. If the output of a song plasticity pathway is blocked during learning, there is no change in pitch during the training. However, as soon as the pathway is unblocked, the pitch immediately shifts to the target location, implying that there is learning of the shift even without performance. Here, they ask whether the return to baseline from such a pitch shift also involves covert or overt learning processes. They perform a series of studies to address these questions, using muting and deafening of birds at different time points. learning.

      Strengths:

      The overall premise is interesting and the use of muting and deafening to manipulate different aspects of motor practice vs. sensory feedback is a solid approach.

      Weaknesses:

      One of the main conclusions, which stems primarily from birds deafened after being pitch-shifted using white noise (WNd) birds in comparison to birds deafened before being pitchshifted with light as a reinforcer (LOd), is that recent auditory experience can drive motor plasticity even when an individual is deprived of such experience. While the lack of shift back to baseline pitch in the LOd birds is convincing, the main conclusion hinges on the responses of just a few WNd individuals who are closer to baseline in the early period. Moreover, only 2 WNd individuals reached baseline in the late period, though neither of these were individuals who were closer to baseline in the early phase. Most individuals remain or return toward the reinforced pitch. These data highlight that while it may be possible for previous auditory experience during reinforcement to drive motor plasticity, the effect is very limited. Importantly, it's not clear if there are other explanations for the changes in these birds, for example, whether there are differences in the number of renditions performed or changes to other aspects of syllable structure that could influence measurements of pitch.

      We thank the reviewer for these detailed observations. We looked into the reviewer’s claim that our main conclusion of revertive pitch changes in deaf birds with target mismatch experience hinges on only few WNd birds in the early period.

      When we remove the three birds that were close to baseline (NRP=0) in the early period, we still get the same trend that WNd birds show revertive changes towards baseline: Early 𝒅’ = −𝟎. 𝟏𝟑, 𝒑 = 𝟎. 𝟐𝟒, tstat = −𝟎.𝟕𝟒, 𝒅𝒇 = 𝟔, 𝑵 = 𝟕 birds, one-sided t-test of H0: 𝒅′ = 𝟎; Late 𝒅’ = −𝟏. 𝟐𝟔, 𝒑 = 𝟎. 𝟎𝟖, tstat = −𝟏.𝟔𝟑, 𝒅𝒇 = 𝟔, 𝑵 = 𝟕 birds, one-sided t-test of H0: 𝒅′ = 𝟎. Furthermore, even without these three birds, bootstrapping the difference between WNd and dC birds shows the same trend in the early period (p=0.22) and a significant reversion in the late period (p<0.001). Thus, the effect of reversion towards baseline in the late period is robustly observed on a population level, even when discounting for three individual birds that the reviewer suspected would be responsible for the effect.

      Moreover, note that there are not two but three WNd individuals that reached baseline in the late period (see Figure 2C, D). One of them was already close to baseline in the early period and another one was already relatively close, too.

      Also, the considerable variability among birds is not surprising, it is to be expected that the variability across deaf birds is large because of their ongoing song degradation that might lead to a drift of pitch over time since deafening.

      Last but not least, see also our multivariate model (below).

      With regards to the “differences in the number of renditions” that could explain pitch changes: Deaf birds sing less after deafening than hearing birds: they sing less during the first 2 hours (early): 87±59 renditions (WNd) and 410±330 renditions (dLO) compared to 616±272 renditions (control birds). Also, WN deaf birds sing only 4300±2300 motif renditions between the early and late period compared to the average of 11000±3400 renditions that hearing control birds produce in the same time period. However, despite these differences, when we provide WNd birds more time to recover, namely 9 days after the early period, they sung on average 12000±6000 renditions, yet their NRP was still significantly different from zero (NRP = 0.37, p=0.007, tstat=3.47, df=9). Thus, even after producing more practice songs, deaf birds do not recover baseline pitch and so the number of songs alone cannot explain why deaf birds do not fully recover pitch. We conclude that auditory experience seems to be necessary to recover song.

      We added this information to the Results.

      In this context, note that the interesting part of our work is not that deaf birds do not fully recover, but that they recover anything at all (“main conclusion”, Fig. 4). The number of songs does not explain why deaf birds with mismatch experience (WNd, singing the least and singing significantly less than control birds, p=2.3*10-6, two-tailed t-test) partially revert song towards baseline, unlike deaf birds without mismatch experience (dLO, singing significantly more than WNd birds, p=0.008, and indistinguishable from control birds, p=0.1). We added this information to the Results section.

      With regards to ‘other aspects of syllable structure’: We did not look into this. Regardless of the outcome of such a hypothetical analysis, whether other syllable features change is irrelevant for our finding that deaf birds do not recover their target song. Nevertheless, note that in Zai et al. 2020 (supplementary Figure 1), we analyzed features other than pitch change in deaf birds. Absolute change in entropy variance was larger in deaf birds than in hearing birds, consistent with the literature on song degradation after deafening (Lombardino and Nottebohm, 2000, Nordeen and Nordeen 2010 and many others). In that paper, we found that only pitch changes consistently along the LO direction. All other features that we looked at (duration, AM, FM and entropy) did not change consistently with the LO contingency. We expect that a similar result would apply for the changes across the recovery period in WNd and dLO birds, i.e., that song degradation can be seen in many features and that pitch is the sole feature that changes consistently with reinforcement (LO/WN) direction.

      While there are examples where the authors perform direct comparisons between particular manipulations and the controls, many of the statistical analyses test whether each group is above or below a threshold (e.g. baseline) separately and then make qualitative comparisons between those groups. Given the variation within the manipulated groups, it seems especially important to determine not just whether these are different from the threshold, but how they compare to the controls. In particular, a full model with time (early, late), treatment (deafened, muted, etc), and individual ID (random variable) would substantially strengthen the analysis.

      We performed a full model of the NRP as the reviewer suggests and it supports our conclusions: Neither muting, deafening nor time without practice between R and E windows have a significant effect on pitch in the E window, but the interaction between deafening and time (late, L) results in a significant pitch change (fixed effect 0.67, p=2*10-6), demonstrating that deaf birds are significantly further away from baseline (NRP=0) than hearing birds in late windows, thereby confirming that birds require auditory feedback to recover a distant pitch target. Importantly, we find a significant fixed effect on pitch in the direction of the target with mismatch experience (fixed effect -0.37, p=0.006), supporting our finding that limited vocal plasticity towards a target is possible even without auditory feedback.

      We included this model as additional analysis to our manuscript.

      The muted birds seem to take longer to return to baseline than controls even after they are unmuted. Presumably, there is some time required to recover from surgery, however, it's unclear whether muting has longer-term effects on syrinx function or the ability to pass air. In particular, it's possible that the birds still haven't recovered by 4 days after unmuting as a consequence of the muting and unmuting procedure or that the lack of recovery is indicative of an additional effect that muting has on pitch recovery. For example, the methods state that muted birds perform some quiet vocalizations. However, if birds also attempt to sing, but just do so silently, perhaps the aberrant somatosensory or other input from singing while muted has additional effects on the ability to regain pitch. It would also be useful to know if there is a relationship between how long they are muted and how quickly they return to baseline.

      We agree, it might be the case that muting has some longer-term effects that could explain why WNm birds did not recover pitch 4 days after unmuting. However, if such an effect exists, it is only weak. Arguing against the idea that a longer muting requires longer recovery, we did not find a correlation between the difference in NRP between early and late and 1. the duration the birds were muted (correlation coefficient = -0.50, p=0.20), and 2. the number of renditions the birds sung between early and late (correlation coefficient = 0.03, p=0.95), and 3. the time since they last sung the target song (last rendition of baseline, correlation coefficient = -0.43, p=0.29). Neither did we find a correlation between the early NRP and the time since the muting surgery (correlation coefficient = 0.26, p=0.53), suggesting that the lack of pitch recovery while muted was not due to a lingering burden of the muting surgery. We added these results to the results section.

      In summary, we used the WNm group to assess whether birds can recover their target pitch in the absence of practice, i.e. whether they recovered pitch in the early time period. Whether or not some long-term effect of the muting/unmuting procedure affects recovery does not impair the main finding we obtained from WNm birds in Figure 1 (that birds do not recover without practice).

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Zai et al. test whether birds can modify their vocal behavior in a manner consistent with planning. They point out that while some animals are known to be capable of volitional control of vocalizations, it has been unclear if animals are capable of planning vocalizations -that is, modifying vocalizations towards a desired target without the need to learn this modification by practicing and comparing sensory feedback of practiced behavior to the behavioral target. They study zebra finches that have been trained to shift the pitch of song syllables away from their baseline values. It is known that once this training ends, zebra finches have a drive to modify pitch so that it is restored back to its baseline value. They take advantage of this drive to ask whether birds can implement this targeted pitch modification in a manner that looks like planning, by comparing the time course and magnitude of pitch modification in separate groups of birds who have undergone different manipulations of sensory and motor capabilities. A key finding is that birds who are deafened immediately before the onset of this pitch restoration paradigm, but after they have been shifted away from baseline, are able to shift pitch partially back towards their baseline target. In other words, this targeted pitch shift occurs even when birds don't have access to auditory feedback, which argues that this shift is not due to reinforcement-learning-guided practice, but is instead planned based on the difference between an internal representation of the target (baseline pitch) and current behavior (pitch the bird was singing immediately before deafening).

      The authors present additional behavioral studies arguing that this pitch shift requires auditory experience of the song in its state after it has been shifted away from baseline (birds deafened early on, before the initial pitch shift away from baseline, do not exhibit any shift back towards baseline), and that a full shift back to baseline requires auditory feedback. The authors synthesize these results to argue that different mechanisms operate for small shifts (planning, does not need auditory feedback) and large shifts (reinforcement learning, requires auditory feedback).

      We thank the reviewer for this concise summary of our paper. To clarify, we want to point out that we do not make any statement about the learning mechanism birds use to make large shifts to recover their target pitch, i.e. we do not say that large shifts are learned by reinforcement learning requiring auditory feedback. We only show that large shifts require auditory feedback.

      The authors also make a distinction between two kinds of planning: covert-not requiring any motor practice and overt-requiring motor practice but without access to auditory experience from which target mismatch could be computed. They argue that birds plan overtly, based on these deafening experiments as well as an analogous experiment involving temporary muting, which suggests that indeed motor practice is required for pitch shifts.

      Strengths:

      The primary finding (that partially restorative pitch shift occurs even after deafening) rests on strong behavioral evidence. It is less clear to what extent this shift requires practice, since their analysis of pitch after deafening takes the average over within the first two hours of singing. If this shift is already evident in the first few renditions then this would be evidence for covert planning. This analysis might not be feasible without a larger dataset. Similarly, the authors could test whether the first few renditions after recovery from muting already exhibit a shift back toward baseline.

      This work will be a valuable addition to others studying birdsong learning and its neural mechanisms. It documents features of birdsong plasticity that are unexpected in standard models of birdsong learning based on reinforcement and are consistent with an additional, perhaps more cognitive, mechanism involving planning. As the authors point out, perhaps this framework offers a reinterpretation of the neural mechanisms underlying a prior finding of covert pitch learning in songbirds (Charlesworth et al., 2012).

      A strength of this work is the variety and detail in its behavioral studies, combined with sensory and motor manipulations, which on their own form a rich set of observations that are useful behavioral constraints on future studies.

      Weaknesses:

      The argument that pitch modification in deafened birds requires some experience hearing their song in its shifted state prior to deafening (Fig. 4) is solid but has an important caveat. Their argument rests on comparing two experimental conditions: one with and one without auditory experience of shifted pitch. However, these conditions also differ in the pitch training paradigm: the "with experience" condition was performed using white noise training, while the "without experience" condition used "lights off" training (Fig. 4A). It is possible that the differences in the ability for these two groups to restore pitch to baseline reflect the training paradigm, not whether subjects had auditory experience of the pitch shift. Ideally, a control study would use one of the training paradigms for both conditions, which would be "lights off" or electrical stimulation (McGregor et al. 2022), since WN training cannot be performed in deafened birds. This is difficult, in part because the authors previously showed that "lights off" training has different valences for deafened vs. hearing birds (Zai et al. 2020). Realistically, this would be a point to add to in discussion rather than a new experiment.

      We added the following statement to our manuscript:

      It is unlikely that dLO birds’ inability to recover baseline pitch is somehow due to our use of a reinforcer of a non-auditory (visual) modality, since somatosensory stimuli do not prevent reliable target pitch recovery in hearing birds (McGregor et al 2022).

      A minor caveat, perhaps worth noting in the discussion, is that this partial pitch shift after deafening could potentially be attributed to the birds "gaining access to some pitch information via somatosensory stretch and vibration receptors and/or air pressure sensing", as the authors acknowledge earlier in the paper. This does not strongly detract from their findings as it does not explain why they found a difference between the "mismatch experience" and "no mismatch experience groups" (Fig. 4).

      We added the following statement: Our insights were gained in deaf birds and we cannot rule out that deaf birds could gain access to pitch information via somatosensoryproprioceptive sensory modalities. However, such information, even if available, cannot explain the difference between the "mismatch experience” (WNd) and the "no mismatch experience" (dLO) groups, which strengthens our claim that the pitch reversion we observe is a planned change and not merely a rigid motor response (as in simple usedependent forgetting).

      More broadly, it is not clear to me what kind of planning these birds are doing, or even whether the "overt planning" here is consistent with "planning" as usually implied in the literature, which in many cases really means covert planning. The idea of using internal models to compute motor output indeed is planning, but why would this not occur immediately (or in a few renditions), instead of taking tens to hundreds of renditions?

      Indeed, what we call ‘covert planning’ refers to what usually is called ‘planning’ in the literature. Also, there seems to be currently no evidence for spontaneous overt planning in songbirds (which we elicited with deafening). Replay of song-like syringeal muscle activity can be induced by auditory stimuli during sleep (Bush, A., Doppler, J. F., Goller, F., and Mindlin, G. B. (2018), but to our knowledge there are no reports of similar replay in awake, non-singing birds, which would constitute evidence for overt planning.

      We cannot ascertain how fast birds can plan their song changes, but our findings are not in disagreement with fast planning. The smallest time window of analysis we chose is 2h, which sets a lower bound of the time frame within which we can measure pitch changes. Our approach is probably not ideally suited for determining the minimal planning time, because the deafening and muting procedures cause an increase in song variability, which calls for larger pitch sample sizes for statistical testing, and the surgeries themselves cause a prolonged period without singing during which we have no access to the birds’ planned motor output. Note that fast planning is demonstrated by the recent finding of instant imitation in nightingales (Costalunga, Giacomo, et al. 2023) and is evidenced by fast re-pitching upon context changes in Bengalese finches (Veit, L., Tian, L. Y., Monroy Hernandez, C. J., & Brainard, M. S., 2021).

      To resolve confusion, it would be useful to discuss and add references relating "overt" planning to the broader literature on planning, including in the introduction when the concept is introduced.

      Overt and covert planning are terms used in the literature on child development and on adult learning, see (Zajic, Matthew Carl, et al., Overt planning behaviors during writing in school-age children with autism spectrum disorder and attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder, 2020) and (Abbas zare-ee, Researching Aptitude in a Process-Based Approach to Foreign Language Writing Instruction. Advances in Language and Literary Studies, 2014), and references therein.

      Indeed, muddying the interpretation of this behavior as planning is that there are other explanations for the findings, such as use-dependent forgetting, which the authors acknowledge in the introduction, but don't clearly revisit as a possible explanation of their results. Perhaps this is because the authors equate use-dependent forgetting and overt planning, in which case this could be stated more clearly in the introduction or discussion.

      We do not mean to strictly equate use-dependent forgetting and overt planning, although they can be related, namely when ‘use’ refers to ‘altered use’ as is the case when something about the behavior is missing (e.g. auditory feedback in our study), and the dependence is not just on ‘use’ but also on ‘experience’.

      We added the following sentence to the discussion: We cannot distinguish the overt planning we find from more complex use-and-experience dependent forgetting, since we only probed for recovery of pitch and did not attempt to push birds into planning pitch shifts further away from baseline.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) The single main issue with this paper is in the section related to Figure 4, and the Figure itself - this is the most important part of the paper essential to buttress the claim of covert learning. However, there are several sources of confusion in the text, analyses, and figures. The key result is in Figure 4B, C - and, in the context of Figs 1-3, the data are significant but subtle. That is, as the authors state, the birds are mostly dependent on slow sensory feedback-dependent (possibly RL) mechanisms but there is a small component of target matching that evidences an internal model. One wonders why this capacity is so small - if they had a good internal model they'd be much faster and better at recovering target pitches after distortion-driven deviations even without sensory feedback.

      (1a) The analysis of the WNd and DLO reversions of pitch (related to Fig. 4) uses a d' analysis which is a pivot from the NRP analysis used in the rest of the paper. It is not clear why different analyses are being used here to compute essentially the same measure, i.e. how much did the pitch revert. It's also odd that different results are now obtained - Fig. 4 has a small but significant reversion of pitch in WNd birds but Fig. 2 shows no significant return to baseline.

      We did not test for reversion towards baseline in Fig. 2 and made no statement about whether there is a significant reversion or not. But when we do such a test, we find a significant reversion for WNd birds in the ‘late’ window (NRP=0.5, p=0.02, N=10, tstat=-1.77, two-tailed t-test), which agrees with Figure 4. In the ‘early’ window in Fig. 2, we find only a trend but no reversion (NRP = 0.76, p=0.11, n=10, tstat=-1.76), which contrasts with our findings in Figure 4. However, the discrepancy can be simply explained by the difference in time alignment that we detail in the Materials and Methods. Namely, in Figure 2, we measure pitch relative to the pitch in the morning on the day before, which is not a good measure of ‘reversion’ (since pitch had been reinforced further away during the day), which is why we do not present this analysis in the paper and dedicate a separate analysis in Figure 4 to reversion.

      (1b) Also in Fig. 4 is it the case that, as in the schematic of 4a, ALL birds in these experiments had their pitch pushed up - so that the return to baseline was all down? If this is the case the analysis may be contaminated by a pitch-down bias in deafened birds. This would ideally be tested with a balance of pitch-up and pitch-down birds in the pre-deafening period, and/or analysis of non-targeted harmonic stacks to examine their pitch changes. If non-targeted stacks exhibit pitch-down changes after deafening, then the reversion that forms the key discovery of this paper will be undermined. Please address.

      Both groups in Figure 4 were balanced (same number of birds were shifted their pitch up and down), see response to public review and Methods.

      (1c) After multiple re-reads and consultations with the Methods section I still do not understand the motivation or result for Figure 4E. Please provide clarification of the hypothesis/control being assessed and the outcome.

      Figure 4E does not add an additional result but strengthens our previous findings because we obtain the same result with a different method. The pitch of deaf birds tends to drift after deafening. To discount for this drift and the effect of time elapsed since deafening, we bootstrapped the magnitude of the pitch change in WNd and dLO birds by comparing them to dC birds in matched time windows. We modified the sentence in the results section to clarify this point:

      To discount for the effect of time elapsed since deafening and quantify the change in pitch specifically due to reinforcement, we bootstrapped the difference in 𝒅′ between dLO/WNd birds and a new group of dC birds that were deafened but experienced no prior reinforcement (see methods).

      (1d) Line 215. It's not clear in the text here how the WNd birds experience a pitch mismatch. Please clarify the text that this mismatch was experienced before deafening. This is a critical paragraph to set up the main claims of the paper. Also, it's not clear what is meant by 'fuel their plan'? I can imagine this would simply be a DA-dependent plasticity process in Area X that does not fuel a plan but rather re-wires and HVC timestep to medium spiny neurons whose outputs drive pitch changes - i.e. not a fueled plan but simply an RL-dependent re-mapping in the motor system. Alternatively, a change could result in plasticity in pallial circuits (e.g. auditory to HVC mappings) that are RL independent and invoke an inverse model along the lines of the author's past work (e.g. Ganguli and Hahnlsoer). This issue is taken up in the discussion but the setup here in the results is very confusing about the possible outcomes. This paragraph is vague with respect to the key hypotheses. It's possible that the WNd and DLO groups enable dissection of the two hypotheses above - because the DLO groups would presumably have RL signals but without recovery - but there remains a real lack of clarity over exactly how the authors are interpreting Fig 4 at the mechanistic level.

      WNd birds experience a pitch mismatch because while singing they hear that their pitch differs from baseline pitch, but the same is not true for dLO birds. We simply tested whether this experience makes a difference for reversion and it does. We added ‘before deafening’ to the paragraph and changed the wording of our hypothesis to make it clearer (we reworded ‘fuel their plan’). Mechanistic interpretations we left in the discussion. Without going to details, all we are saying is that birds can only plan to revert motor changes they are aware of in the first place.

      Minor issues

      The songs of deafened birds degrade, at a rate that depends on the bird's age. Younger crystalized birds degrade much faster, presumably because of lower testosterone levels that are associated with increased plasticity and LMAN function. Some background is needed on deafened birds to set up the WNd experiments.

      Despite deafening leading to the degradation of song (Lombardino and Nottebohm, 2000), syllable detection and pitch calculation were still possible in all deaf birds (up to 13-50 days after deafening surgery, age range 90-300 dph, n=44 birds).

      Since pitch shifting was balanced in both deaf bird groups (the same number of birds were up- and down-shifted), systematic changes in pitch post deafening (Lombardino and Nottebohm, 2000) will average out and so would not affect our findings.

      Lines 97-103. The paragraph is unclear and perhaps a call to a SupFig to show the lack of recovery would help. If I understand correctly, the first two birds did not exhibit the normal recovery to baseline if they did not have an opportunity to hear themselves sing without the WN. I am failing to understand this.

      In the early window (first 2 hours after unmuting) birds have not changed their pitch compared to their pitch in the corresponding window at the end of reinforcement (with matching time-of-day). We added ‘immediately after unmuting (early)’ to clarify this statement.

      Lines 68-69. What is the difference between (2) and (3)? Both require sensory representation/target to be mapped to vocal motor output. Please clarify or fuse these concepts.

      We fused the concept and changed the figure and explanation accordingly.

      Line 100. Please name the figure to support the claim.

      We marked the two birds in the Fig. 1H and added a reference in the text.

      Line 109. Is there a way to confirm / test if muted birds attempted to sing?

      Unfortunately, we do not have video recordings to check if there are any signs of singing attempts in muted birds.

      Line 296: Why 'hierarchically 'lower'?

      Lower because without it there is nothing to consolidate, i.e. the higher process can only be effective after the lower but not before. We clarified this point in the text.

      Past work on temporal - CAF (tcaf) by the Olveczky group showed that syllable durations and gaps could be reinforced in a way that does not depend on Area X and, therefore, related to the authors' discussion on the possible mechanisms of sensory-feedback independent recovery, may rely on the same neural substrates that Fig. 4 WNd group uses to recover. Yet the authors find in this paper that tCAF birds did not recover. There seems to be an oddity here - if covert recovery relies on circuits outside the basal ganglia and RL mechanisms, wouldn't t-CAF birds be more likely to recover? This is not a major issue but is a source of confusion related to the authors' interpretations that could be fleshed out.

      This is a good point, we reinvestigated the tCAF birds in the context of Fig 4 where we looked for pitch reversions towards baseline. tCAF birds do also revert towards baseline. We added this information to the supplement. We cannot say anything about the mechanistic reasons for lack of recovery, especially given that we did not look at brain-level mechanisms.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The data presentation could be improved. It is difficult to distinguish between the early and late symbols and to distinguish between the colors for the individual lines on the plots or to match them with the points on the group data plots. In addition, because presumably, the points in plots like 2D are for the same individuals, lines connecting those points would be useful rather than trying to figure out which points are the same color.

      We added lines in Fig. 2D connecting the birds in early and late.

      The model illustrations (Fig 1A, Fig 5) are not intuitive and do not help to clarify the different hypotheses or ideas. I think these need to be reworked.

      We revised the model illustrations and hope they improved to clarify the different hypothesis.

      Some of the phrasing is confusing. Especially lines 157-158 and 256-257.

      Lines 157-158: we removed an instance of ‘WNd’, which was out of place.

      Lines 256-257: we rephrased to ‘showing that prior experience of a target mismatch is necessary for pitch reversion independently of auditory feedback’

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      For Fig. 1, the conclusion in the text "Overall, these findings suggest that either motor practice, sensory feedback, or both, are necessary for the recovery of baseline song" is not aligned with the figure header "Recovery of pitch target requires practice".

      We rephrased the conclusion to: Overall, these findings rule out covert planning in muted birds and suggest that motor practice is necessary for recovery of baseline song.

      The use of the term "song experience" can be confusing as to whether it means motor or auditory experience. Perhaps replace it with "singing experience" or "auditory experience" where appropriate.

      We did the requested changes.

      Fig. 1A, and related text, reads as three hypotheses that the authors will test in the paper, but I don't think this turns out to the be the main goal (and if it is, it is not clear their results differentiate between hypotheses 1, 2, and 3). Perhaps reframe as discussion points and have this panel not be so prominent at the start, just to avoid this confusion.

      We modified the illustration in Fig 1A and simplified it. We now only show the 2 hypotheses that we test in the paper.

      Line 275-276, "preceding few hours necessitates auditory feedback, which sets a limit to zebra finches' covert planning ability". Did the authors mean "overt", not covert? Since their study focuses on overt planning.

      Our study focuses on covert planning in figure 1 and overt planning in subsequent figures.

      The purpose of the paragraph starting on line 278 could be more clear. Is the goal to say that overt planning and what has previously been described as use-dependent forgetting are actually the same thing? If not, what is the relationship between overt planning and forgetting? In other words, why should I care about prior work on use-dependent forgetting?

      We moved the paragraph further down where it does not interrupt the narrative. See also our reply to reviewer 3 on use-dependent forgetting.

      Line 294, "...a dependent process enabled by experience of the former...", was not clear what "former" is referring to. In general, this paragraph was difficult to understand. Line 296: Which is the "lower" process?

      We added explanatory parentheses in the text to clarify. We rephrased the sentence to ‘the hierarchically lower process of acquisition or planning as we find is independent of immediate sensory experience.’

      Line 295, the reference to "acquisition" vs. "retention". It is not clear how these two concepts relate to the behavior in this study, and/or the hierarchical processes referenced in the previous sentence. Overall, it is not clear how consolidation is related to the paper's findings.

      We added explanatory parentheses in the text and changed figure 5 to better explain the links.

      Line 305, add a reference to Warren et al. 2011, which I believe was the first study (or one of them) that showed that AFP bias is required for restoring pitch to baseline.

      We are citing Warren et al. 2011 in the sentence:

      Such separation also applies to songbirds. Both reinforcement learning of pitch and recovery of the original pitch baseline depend on the anterior forebrain pathway and its output, the lateral magnocellular nucleus of the anterior nidopallium (LMAN)(1).

      Line 310, "Because LMAN seems capable of executing a motor plan without sensory feedback", is this inferred from this paper (in which case this is an overreach) or is this referencing prior work (if so, which one, and please cite)?

      We changed the wording to ‘It remains to be seen whether LMAN is capable of executing a motor plans without sensory feedback’.

      Line 326, "which makes them well suited for planning song in a manner congruent with experience." I don't fully understand the logic. Can this sentence be clarified?

      We rephrased the sentence and added an explanation as follows: …which makes them well suited for executing song plans within the range of recent experience (i.e., if the song is outside recent experience, it elicits no LMAN response and so does not gain access to planning circuits).

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      In this manuscript, the authors report a molecular mechanism for recruiting syntaixn 17 (Syn17) to the closed autophagosomes through the charge interaction between enriched PI4P and the C-terminal region of Syn17. How to precisely control the location and conformation of proteins is critical for maintaining autophagic flux. Particularly, the recruitment of Syn17 to autophagosomes remains unclear. In this paper, the author describes a simple lipid-protein interaction model beyond previous studies focusing on protein-protein interactions. This represents conceptual advances.

      We would like to thank Reviewer #1 for the positive evaluation of our study.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Syntaxin17 (STX17) is a SNARE protein that is recruited to mature (i.e., closed) autophagosomes, but not to immature (i.e., unclosed) ones, and mediates the autophagosome-lysosome fusion. How STX17 recognizes the mature autophagosome is an unresolved interesting question in the autophagy field. Shinoda and colleagues set out to answer this question by focusing on the C-terminal domain of STX17 and found that PI4P is a strong candidate that causes the STX17 recruitment to the autophasome.

      Strengths:

      The main findings are: 1) Rich positive charges in the C-terminal domain of STX17 are sufficient for the recruitment to the mature autophagosome; 2) Fluorescence charge sensors of different strengths suggest that autophagic membranes have negative charges and the charge increases as they mature; 3) Among a battery of fluorescence biosensors, only PI4P-binding biosensors distribute to the mature autophagosome; 4) STX17 bound to isolated autophagosomes is released by treatment with Sac1 phosphatase; 5) By dynamic molecular simulation, STX17 TM is shown to be inserted to a membrane containing PI4P but not to a membrane without it. These results indicate that PI4P is a strong candidate that STX17 binds to in the autophagosome.

      We would like to thank Reviewer #2 for pointing out these strengths.

      Weaknesses:

      • It was not answered whether PI4P is crucial for the STX17 recruitment in cells because manipulation of the PI4P content in autophagic membranes was not successful for unknown reasons.

      As we explained in the initial submission, we tried to deplete PI4P in autophagosomes by multiple methods but did not succeed. In this revised manuscript, we added the result of an experiment using the PI 4-kinase inhibitor NC03 (Figure 4―figure supplement 1), which shows no significant effect on the autophagosomal PI4P level and STX17 recruitment.

      Author response image 1.

      The PI 4-kinase inhibitor NC03 failed to suppress autophagosomal PI4P accumulation and STX17 recruitment. HEK293T cells stably expressing mRuby3–STX17TM (A) or mRuby3–CERT(PHD) (B) and Halotag-LC3 were cultured in starvation medium for 1 h and then treated with and without 10 μM NC03 for 10 min. Representative confocal images are shown. STX17TM- or CERT(PHD)-positive rates of LC3 structures per cell (n > 30 cells) are shown in the graphs. Solid horizontal lines indicate medians, boxes indicate the interquartile ranges (25th to 75th percentiles), and whiskers indicate the 5th to 95th percentiles. Differences were statistically analyzed by Welch’s t-test. Scale bars, 10 μm (main), 1 μm (inset).

      • The molecular simulation study did not show whether PI4P is necessary for the STX17 TM insertion or whether other negatively charged lipids can play a similar role.

      As the reviewer suggested, we performed the molecular dynamics simulation using membranes with phosphatidylinositol, a negatively charged lipid. STX17 TM approached the PI-containing membrane but was not inserted into the membrane within a time scale of 100 ns in simulations of all five structures. This data suggests that PI4P, which is more negatively charged than PI, is required for STX17 insertion. Thus, we have included these data in Figure 5E and F and added the following text to Lines 242–244. “Moreover, if the membrane contained phosphatidylinositol (PI) instead of PI4P, STX17 approached the PI-containing membrane but was not inserted into the membrane (Figure 5E, F, Video 3)."

      Author response image 2.

      (E) An example of a time series of simulated results of STX17TM insertion into a membrane consisting of 70% phosphatidylcholine (PC), 20% phosphatidylethanolamine (PE), and 10% phosphatidylinositol (PI). STX17TM is shown in blue. Phosphorus in PC, PE and PI are indicated by yellow, cyan, and orange, respectively. Short-tailed lipids are represented as green sticks. The time evolution series are shown in Video 3. (F) Time evolution of the z-coordinate of the center of mass (z_cm) of the transmembrane helices of STX17TM in the case of membranes with PI. Five independent simulation results are represented by solid lines of different colors. The gray dashed lines indicate the locations of the lipid heads. A scale bar indicates 5 nm.

      • The question that the authors posed in the beginning, i.e., why is STX17 recruited to the mature (closed) autophagosome but not to immature autophagic membranes, was not answered. The authors speculate that the seemingly gradual increase of negative charges in autophagic membranes is caused by an increase in PI4P. However, this was not supported by the PI4P fluorescence biosensor experiment that showed their distribution to the mature autophagosome only. Here, there are at least two possibilities: 1) The increase of negative charges in immature autophagic membranes is derived from PI4P. However the fluorescence biosensors do not bind there for some reason; for example, they are not sensitive enough to recognize PI4P until it reaches a certain level, or simply, their binding does not occur in a quantitative manner. 2) The negative charge in immature membranes is not derived from PI4P, and PI4P is generated abundantly only after autophagosomes are closed. In either case, it is not easy to explain why STX17 is recruited to the mature autophagosome only. For the first scenario, it is not clear how the PI4P synthesis is regulated so that it reaches a sufficient level only after the membrane closure. In the second case, the mechanism that produces PI4P only after the autophagosome closure needs to be elucidated (so, in this case, the question of the temporal regulation issue remains the same).

      We thank the reviewers for pointing this out. While the probe for weakly negative charges (1K8Q) labeled both immature and mature autophagosomes, the probes for intermediate charges (5K4Q and 3K6Q) and PI4P labeled only mature autophagosomes (Figure 2F, Figure 2–figure supplement 1B). Thus, we think that the autophagosomal membrane rapidly and drastically becomes negatively charged, and at the same time, PI4P is enriched. Although immature membranes may have weak negative charges, we did not examine which lipids contribute to the negative charges. Thus, we have added the following sentences to the Discussion part.

      “Our data of the 1K8Q probe suggest that immature autophagosomal membranes may also have slight negative charges (Figure 2E). Although the source of the negative charge of immature autophagosomes is currently unknown, it may be derived from low levels of PI4P, which is undetectable by the PI4P probes and/or other negatively charged lipids such as PI and PS (Schmitt et al., EMBO Rep, 2022).” (Lines 279–283) “In any case, it would be important to elucidate how PI 4-kinase activity or PI4P synthesis is upregulated during autophagosome maturation.” (Lines 302–303)

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this study, the authors set out to address the question of how the SNARE protein Syntaxin 17 senses autophagosome maturation by being recruited to autophagosomal membranes only once autophagosome formation and sealing is complete. The authors discover that the C-terminal region of Syntaxin 17 is essential for its sensing mechanism that involves two transmembrane domains and a positively charged region. The authors discover that the lipid PI4P is highly enriched in mature autophagosomes and that electrostatic interaction with Syntaxin 17's positively charged region with PI4P drives recruitment specifically to mature autophagosomes. The temporal basis for PI4P enrichment and Syntaxin 17 recruitment to ensure that unsealed autophagosomes do not fuse with lysosomes is a very interesting and important discovery. Overall, the data are clear and convincing, with the study providing important mechanistic insights that will be of broad interest to the autophagy field, and also to cell biologists interested in phosphoinositide lipid biology. The author's discovery also provides an opportunity for future research in which Syntaxin 17's c-terminal region could be used to target factors of interest to mature autophagosomes.

      Strengths:

      The study combines clear and convincing cell biology data with in vitro approaches to show how Syntaxin 17 is recruited to mature autophagosomes. The authors take a methodical approach to narrow down the critical regions within Syntaxin 17 required for recruitment and use a variety of biosensors to show that PI4P is enriched on mature autophagosomes.

      We would like to thank Reviewer #3 for the positive comments.

      Weaknesses:

      There are no major weaknesses, overall the work is highly convincing. It would have been beneficial if the authors could have shown whether altering PI4P levels would affect Syntaxin 17 recruitment. However, this is understandably a challenging experiment to undertake and the authors outlined their various attempts to tackle this question.

      We thank Reviewer #3 for pointing this out. Please see our above response to Reviewer #2 (Public Review).

      In addition, clear statements within the figure legends on the number of independent experimental repeats that were conducted for experiments that were quantitated are not currently present in the manuscript.

      As pointed out by Reviewer #3, we have added the number of independent experimental repeats in the figure legends.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      This paper is well written and all experiments were conducted with a high standard. Several minor issues should be addressed before final publication.

      (1) To further confirm the charge interaction, a charge screening experiment should be performed for Fig. 2A.

      We have asked Reviewer #1 through the editor what this experiment meant and understood that it was to see the effects of high salt concentrations. We monitored the association of GFP-STX17TM with liposomes in the presence or absence of 1 M NaCl and found that it was blocked in a high ionic buffer. This data supports the electrostatic interaction of STX17 with membranes. We have included this data in Figure 2B and added the following sentences to Lines 124–126.

      “The association of STX17TM with PI4P-containing membranes was abolished in the presence of 1 M NaCl (Figure 2B). These data suggest that STX17 can be recruited to negatively charged membranes via electrostatic interaction independent of the specific lipid species.”

      Author response image 3.

      GFP–STX17TM translated in vitro was incubated with rhodamine-labeled liposomes containing 70% PC, 20% PE and 10% PI4P in the presence of 1 M NaCl or 1.2 M sucrose. GFP intensities of liposomes were quantified and shown as in Figure 1C (n > 30).

      (2) The authors claim that "Autophagosomes become negatively charged during maturation", based on experiments using membrane charge probes. Since it's mainly about the membrane, it's better to refine the claim to "The membrane of autophasosomes becomes...", which would be more precise and close to the topic of this paper.

      We would like to thank the reviewer for pointing this out. This point is valid. As recommended, we have collected the phrases “Autophagosomes become negatively charged during maturation” to “The membrane of autophagosomes becomes negatively charged during maturation” (Line 72, 118, 262, 969 (title of Figure2), 1068 (title of Figure2–figure supplyment1)).

      (3) The authors should add more discussion regarding the "specificity" for recruiting Syn17 through the charge interaction. Particularly, how Syn17 could be maintained before the closure of autophagosomes? For the MD simulations in Fig. 5, the current results don't add much to the manuscript. The cell biology experiments have demonstrated the conclusion. The authors could try to find more details about the insertion by analyzing the simulation movies. Do membrane packing defects play a role during the insertion process? A similar analysis was conducted for alpha-synuclein (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33437978/).

      Regarding the mechanism of STX17 maintenance in the cytosol, we do not think that other molecules, such as chaperones, are essential because purified recombinant mGFP-STX17TM used in this study is soluble. However, it does not rule out such a mechanism, which would be a future study.

      In the paper by Liu et al. (PMID: 33437978), small liposomes with diameters of 25–50 nm are used. Therefore, there are packing defects in the highly curved membranes, to which alpha-synuclein helices are inserted in a curvature-dependent manner. On the other hand, autophagosomes are much larger (~1 um in diameter) and almost flat for STX17 molecules, so we think it is unlikely that STX17 recognizes the packing defect.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      • The two (and other) possibilities with regards to the interpretation of the negative charge/PI4P result in autophagic membranes are hoped to be discussed.

      As mentioned above, we have added the following sentences to the Discussion section. “Our data of the 1K8Q probe suggest that immature autophagosomal membranes may also have slight negative charges (Figure 2E). Although the source of the negative charge of immature autophagosomes is currently unknown, it may be derived from low levels of PI4P, which is undetectable by the PI4P probes and/or other negatively charged lipids such as PI and PS (Schmitt et al., EMBO Rep, 2022).” (Lines 279–283)

      “In any case, it would be important to elucidate how PI 4-kinase activity or PI4P synthesis is upregulated during autophagosome maturation.” (Lines 302–303)

      • Fluorescence biosensors are convenient to give an overview of the intracellular distribution of various lipids, but some of them show false-negative results. For example, evectin-2-PH for PS binds to endosomes but not to the plasma membrane, even though the latter contains abundant PS. With regards to PI4P, some biosensors illuminate both the Golgi and autophagosome, while others do not appear to bind the Golgi. Moreover, fluorescence biosensors for PI(3,5)P2 and PI(3,4)P2, which are also candidates for the STX17 insertion issue, are less reliable than others (e.g., those for PI3P and PI(4,5)P2). These problems need to be considered.

      We agree with Reviewer #2 that fluorescence biosensors are not perfect for detecting specific lipids. Based on the Reviewer’s suggestion, we have included a comment on this in the Discussion section as follows (Lines 265–268).

      “Given the possibility that fluorescence lipid probes may give false-negative results, a more comprehensive biochemical analysis, such as lipidomics analysis of mature autophagosomes, would be imperative to elucidate the potential involvement of other negatively charged lipids.”

      • A negative control for the PI4P biosensor, i.e., a mutant lacking the PI4P binding ability, is better to be tested to confirm the presence of PI4P in autophagosomes.

      We would like to thank the Reviewer for this comment. We conducted the suggested experiment and confirmed that the CERT(PHD)(W33A) mutant, which is deficient for PI4P binding (Sugiki et al., JBC. 2012), was diffusely present in the cytosol and did not localize to STX17-positive autophagosomes. This data supports our conclusion that PI4P is indeed present in autophagosomes. We have included this data in Figure 3–figure supplement 2A and explained it in the text (Lines 164–166).

      Author response image 4.

      Mouse embryonic fibroblasts (MEFs) stably expressing GFP–CERT(PHD)(W33A) and mRuby3–STX17TM were cultured in starvation medium for 1 h. Bars indicate 10 μm (main images) and 1 μm (insets).

      • As a control to the molecular dynamic simulation study, STX17 TM insertion into a membrane containing other negative charge lipids, especially PI, needs to be tested. PI is a negative charge lipid that is likely to exist in autophagic membranes (as suggested by the authors' past study).

      We thank the reviewers for this suggestion. As mentioned above (Reviewer #2, Public Review), we performed the molecular dynamics simulation using membranes containing PI and added the results in Figure 5E and F and Video 3.

      • If the putative role of PI4P could be shown in the cellular context, the authors' conclusion would be much strengthened. I wonder if overexpression of PI4P fluorescence biosensors, especially those that appear to bind to the autophagosome almost exclusively, may suppress the recruitment of STX17 there.

      We would like to thank the Reviewer for asking this question. In MEFs stably overexpressing PI4P probes driven by the CMV promoter, STX17 recruitment was not affected. Thus, simple overexpression of PI4P probes does not appear to be effective in masking PI4P in autophagosomes.

      Another idea is to use an appropriate molecule (e.g., WIPI2, ATG5) and to recruit Sac1 to autophagic membranes by using the FRB-FKBP system or the like. I hope these and other possibilities will be tested to confirm the importance of PI4P in the temporal regulation of STX17 recruitment.

      We tried the FRB-FKBP system using the phosphatase domain of yeast Sac1 fused to FKBP and LC3 fused to FRB, but unfortunately, this system failed to deplete PI4P from the autophagosomal membrane.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      A few areas for suggested improvement are:

      (1) It would be helpful if the authors could clarify for all figures how many independent experiments were conducted for all experiments, particularly those that have quantitation and statistical analyses.

      As pointed out by Reviewer #3, we have added the number of independent experimental repeats in the figure legends.

      The authors made several attempts to modulate PI4P levels on autophagosomes although understandably this proved to be challenging. A couple of suggestions are provided to address this area:

      (2) Given the reported role of GABARAPs in PI4K2a recruitment and PI4P production on autophagosomes, as well as autophagosome-lysosome fusion (Nguyen et al (2016) J Cell Biol) it would be worthwhile to assess whether GABARAP TKO cells have reduced PI4P and reduced Stx17 recruitment

      According to the Reviewer’s suggestion, we examined the localization of STX17 TM and the PI4P probe CERT(PHD) in ATG8 family (LC3/GABARAP) hexa KO HeLa cells that were established by the Lazarou lab (Nguyen et al., JCB 2016). As in WT cells, STX17 TM and CERT(PHD) were still colocalized with each other in hexa KO cells, suggesting that neither STX17 recruitment nor PI4P enrichment depends on ATG8 family proteins (note: the size of autophagosomes in HeLa cells is smaller than in MEFs, making it difficult to observe autophagosomes as ring-shaped structures). We have included this result in Figure 3–figure supplement 2(F) and explained it in the text (Lines 194–196, 198).

      Author response image 5.

      (F) WT and ATG8 hexa KO HeLa cells stably expressing GFP–STX17TM and transiently expressing mRuby3–CERT(PHD) were cultured in starvation medium. Bars indicate 10 μm (main images) and 1 μm (insets).

      (3) Can the authors try fusing Sac1 to one of the PI4P probes (CERT(PHD)) that were used, or alternatively to the c-terminus of Syntaxin 17? This approach would help to recruit Sac1 only to mature autophagosomes and could therefore prevent the autophagosome formation defect observed when fused to LC3B that targeted Sac1 to autophagosomes as they were forming. Understandably, this approach might seem a bit counterintuitive since the phosphatase is removing PI4P which is what is recruiting it but it could be a viable approach to keep PI4P levels low enough on mature autophagosomes so that Syntaxin 17 is no longer recruited. A Sac1 phosphatase mutant might be needed as a control.

      We would like to thank the Reviewer for these suggestions. We tried the phosphatase domain of yeast Sac1 or human SAC1 fused with STX17TM, but unfortunately, these fusion proteins did not deplete PI4P from autophagosomes.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Review:

      Reviewer #1:

      (1) To support the finding that texture is not represented in a modular fashion, additional possibilities must be considered. These include (a) the effectiveness and specificity of the texture stimulus and control stimuli, (b) further analysis of possible structure in images that may have been missed, and (c) limitations of imaging resolution.

      Thank you for your comments. To address your concerns, we have conducted a new 3T fMRI experiment to demonstrate the effectiveness and specificity of our stimuli, performed further analyses to investigate possible structure of texture-selective activation, and discussed the limitations of imaging resolution.

      (a) To demonstrate the effectiveness and specificity of our stimuli, we conducted a new 3T fMRI experiment in five participants using an experimental design and texture families similar to those in Freeman (2013). Six texture stimuli in the 7T experiment were also included. To assess the effectiveness of each stimulus type, different texture families and their corresponding noise patterns were presented in separate blocks for 24 seconds, at a high presentation rate of 5 frames per second. In Figure S7, all texture families showed significantly stronger activation in V2 compared to their corresponding noise patterns, even for those that ‘appeared’ to have residual texture (e.g., the third texture family). These results demonstrate that our texture vs. noise stimuli were effective in producing texture-selective activations in area V2. Compared to the 7T results, the 3T data showed a notable increase in texture-selective activations in V2, likely due to increased stimulus presentation speed (1.25 vs. 5 frames/second). Future studies should use stimuli with faster presentation speed to validate our results in the 7T experiment.

      (b)Thank you for pointing out the possible structures of texture-selective activations in the peripheral visual field (Figure S1). In further analyses, we also found stronger texture selectivity in more peripheral visual fields (Figure 2D), and there were weak but significant correlations in the texture-noise activation patterns during split-half analysis (Author response image 2). Although this is not strong evidence for columnar organization of naturalistic textures, it suggests a possibility for modular organizations in the peripheral visual field.

      (c) Although our fMRI result at 1-mm isotropic resolution did not show strong evidence for modular processing of naturalistic texture in V2 stripe columns, this does not exclude the possibility that smaller modules exist beyond the current fMRI resolution. We have discussed this possibility in the revised manuscript.

      We hope this response clarifies our findings, and we have revised the conclusions in the manuscript accordingly.

      (2) More in-depth analysis of subject data is needed. The apparent structure in the texture images in peripheral fields of some subjects calls for more detailed analysis. e.g Relationship to eccentricity and the need for a 'modularity index' to quantify the degree of modularity. A possible relationship to eccentricity should also be considered.

      Based on your recommendations, we have performed further analysis and found interesting results regarding the modularity index in relation to eccentricity. As shown in Figure 2D, the texture-selectivity index increased as eccentricity. This may suggest a higher possibility of modular organization for texture representation in the peripheral compared to central visual fields. We have updated our results in Figure 2C, and discussed this possibility in the revised manuscript.

      (3) Given what is known as a modular organization in V4 and V3 (e.g. for color, orientation, curvature), did images reveal these organizations? If so, connectivity analysis would be improved based on such ROIs. This would further strengthen the hierarchical scheme.

      Following your recommendations, we have conducted further analysis to investigate the potential modular organizations in V4 and V3ab. In Figure S9 (Figure S9), vertices that are most responsive to color, disparity and texture were shown in a representative subject. Indeed, texture-selective patches can be found in both V4 and V3ab, along with the color- and disparity-selective patches. We agree with you that there should be pathway-specific connectivity among the same type of functional modules. In the informational connectivity analyses, we already used highly informative voxels by feature selection, which should mainly represent information from the modular organizations in these higher visual areas.

      Reviewer #2:

      (1) In lines 162-163, it is stated that no clear columnar organization exists for naturalistic texture processing in V2. In my opinion, this should be rephrased. As far as I understand, Figure 2B refers to the analysis used to support the conclusion. The left and middle bar plots only show a circular analysis since ROIs were based on the color and disparity contrast used to define thin and thick stripes. The interesting graph is the right plot, which shows no statistically significant overlap of texture processing with thin, thick, and pale stripe ROIs. It should be pointed out that this analysis does not dismiss a columnar organization per se but instead only supports the conclusion of no coincidence with the CO-stripe architecture.

      Thank you for your suggestions. Reviewer #1 also raised a similar concern. We agree that there may be a smaller functional module of textures in area V2 at a finer spatial scale than our fMRI resolution. We have rephrased our conclusions to be more precise.

      (2) In Figure 3, cortical depth-dependent analyses are presented for color, disparity, and texture processing. I acknowledge that the authors took care of venous effects by excluding outlier voxels. However, the GE-BOLD signal at high magnetic fields is still biased to extravascular contributions from around larger veins. Therefore, the highest color selectivity in superficial layers might also result from the bias to draining veins and might not be of neuronal origin. Furthermore, it is interesting that cortical profiles with the highest selectivity in superficial layers show overall higher selectivity across cortical depth. Could the missing increase toward the pial surface in other profiles result from the ROI definition or overall smaller signal changes (effect size) of selected voxels? At least, a more careful interpretation and discussion would be helpful for the reader.

      We agree with you that there will be residual venous effects even after removing voxels containing large veins. However, calculating the selectivity index largely removed the superficial bias (Figure 3). In the revised manuscript, we discussed the limitations of cortical depth-dependent analysis using GE-BOLD fMRI.

      In Line 397-403: “Due to the limitations of the T2*w GE-BOLD signal in its sensitivity to large draining veins (Fracasso et al., 2021; Parkes et al., 2005; Uludag & Havlicek, 2021), the original BOLD responses were strongly biased towards the superficial depth in our data (Figure S8). Compared to GE-BOLD, VASO-CBV and SE-BOLD fMRI techniques have higher spatial specificity but much lower sensitivity (Huber et al., 2019). As shown in a recent study (Qian et al., 2024), using differential BOLD responses in a continuous­­ stimulus design can significantly enhance the laminar specificity of the feature selectivity measures in our results (Figure 3).”

      It is unlikely that the strongest color selectivity index in the superficial depth is a result of stronger signal change or larger effect size in this condition. As shown by the original BOLD responses in Figure S8, all stimulus conditions produced robust activations that strongly biased to the superficial depth. High texture selectivity was also found in V4 and V3ab across cortical depth, which showed a flat laminar profile.

      (3) I was slightly surprised that no retinotopy data was acquired. The ROI definition in the manuscript was based on a retinotopy atlas plus manual stripe segmentation of single columns. Both steps have disadvantages because they neglect individual differences and are based on subjective assessment. A few points might be worth discussing: (1) In lines 467-468, the authors state that V2 was defined based on the extent of stripes. This classical definition of area V2 was questioned by a recent publication (Nasr et al., 2016, J Neurosci, 36, 1841-1857), which showed that stripes might extend into V3. Could this have been a problem in the present analysis, e.g., in the connectivity analysis? (2) The manual segmentation depends on the chosen threshold value, which is inevitably arbitrary. Which value was used?

      A previous study showed that the retinotopic atlas of early visual areas (V1-V3) aligned very well across participants on the standard surface after surface-based registration by the anatomical landmarks (Benson 2018). Thus, the group-averaged atlas should be accurate in defining the boundaries of early visual areas. To directly demonstrate the accuracy of this method, retinotopic data were acquired in five participants in a 3T fMRI experiment. A phase-encoded method was used to define the boundaries of early visual areas (black lines in Author response image 1), which were highly consistent with the Benson atlas.

      Although a few feature-selective stripes may extend into V3, these stripe patterns were mainly represented in V2. Thus, the signal contribution from V3 is likely to be small and should not affect the pattern of results. The activation map threshold for manual segmentation was abs(T)>2. We have clarified this in the revised methods.

      Author response image 1.

      Retinotopic ROIs defined by the Benson atlas (left) and the polar angle map (right) of the representative subject. Black lines denote the boundaries of early visual areas based on the retinotopic map from the subject.

      Benson, N. C., Jamison, K. W., Arcaro, M. J., Vu, A. T., Glasser, M. F., Coalson, T. S., Van Essen, D. C., Yacoub, E., Ugurbil, K., Winawer, J., & Kay, K. (2018). The Human Connectome Project 7 Tesla retinotopy dataset: Description and population receptive field analysis. J Vis, 18(13), 23. https://doi.org/10.1167/18.13.23

      (4) The use of 1-mm isotropic voxels is relatively coarse for cortical depth-dependent analyses, especially in the early visual cortex, which is highly convoluted and has a small cortical thickness. For example, most layer-fMRI studies use a voxel size of around isotropic 0.8 mm, which has half the voxel volume of 1 mm isotropic voxels. With increasing voxel volume, partial volume effects become more pronounced. For example, partial volume with CSF might confound the analysis by introducing pulsatility effects.

      We agree that a 1-mm isotropic voxel is much larger in volume than a 0.8-mm isotropic voxel, but the resolution along the cortical depth is not a big difference. In addition to our study, a previous study showed that fMRI at 1-mm isotropic resolution is capable of resolving cortical depth-dependent signals (Roefs et al., 2024; Shao et al., 2021). We have discussed these issues about fMRI resolution in the revised manuscript.

      In Line 403-408: “Compared to the submillimeter voxels, as used in most laminar fMRI studies, our fMRI resolution at 1-mm isotropic voxel may have a stronger partial volume effect in the cortical depth-dependent analysis. However, consistent with our results, previous studies have also shown that 7T fMRI at 1-mm isotropic resolution can resolve cortical depth-dependent signals in human visual cortex (Roefs et al., 2024; Shao et al., 2021).”

      Shao, X., Guo, F., Shou, Q., Wang, K., Jann, K., Yan, L., Toga, A. W., Zhang, P., & Wang, D. J. J. (2021). Laminar perfusion imaging with zoomed arterial spin labeling at 7 Tesla. NeuroImage, 245, 118724. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuroimage.2021.118724

      Roefs, E. C., Schellekens, W., Báez-Yáñez, M. G., Bhogal, A. A., Groen, I. I., van Osch, M. J., ... & Petridou, N. (2024). The Contribution of the Vascular Architecture and Cerebrovascular Reactivity to the BOLD signal Formation across Cortical Depth. Imaging Neuroscience, 2, 1–19.

      (5) The SVM analysis included a feature selection step stated in lines 531-533. Although this step is reasonable for the training of a machine learning classifier, it would be interesting to know if the authors think this step could have reintroduced some bias to draining vein contributions.

      We excluded vertices with extremely large signal change and their corresponding voxels in the gray matter when defining ROIs. The same number of voxels were selected from each cortical depth for the SVM analysis, thus there was no bias in the number of voxels from the superficial layers susceptible to large draining veins.

      Reviewer #3:

      The authors tend to overclaim their results.

      Re: Thank you for your comments. We added more control analyses to strengthen our findings, and gave more appropriate discussion of results.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1:

      (1) Controls: There is a bit more complexity than is expressed in the introduction. The authors hypothesize that the emergence of computational features such as texture may be reflected in specialized columns. That is, if texture is generated in V2, there may be texture columns (perhaps in the pale stripes of V2); but if generated at a higher level, then no texture columns would be needed. This is a very interesting and fundamental hypothesis. While there may be merit to this hypothesis, the demonstration that color and disparity are modular but not texture falls short of making a compelling argument. At a minimum, the finding that texture is not organized in V2 requires additional controls. (a) To boost the texture signal, additional texture stimuli or a sequence of multiple texture stimuli per trial could be considered. (b) Unfortunately, the comparison noise pattern also seems to contain texture; perhaps a less textured control could be designed. (c) It also appears that some of the texture images in Supplementary Figure S1 contain possible structure, e.g. in more peripheral visual fields. (d) Is it possible that the current imaging resolution is not sufficient for revealing texture domains? (e) Note that 'texture' may be a property that defines surfaces and not contours. Thus, while texture may have orientation content, its function may be associated with the surface processing pathways. A control stimulus might contain oriented elements of a texture stimulus that do not elicit texture percept; such a control might activate pale and/or thick stripes (both of which contain orientation domains), while the texture percept stimulus may activate surface-related bands in V4.

      Thank you for your suggestions. They are extremely helpful in improving our manuscript. For the controls you mentioned in (a-d), we discussed them in the public review that we also attached below.

      (a) and (b): To demonstrate the effectiveness and specificity of our stimuli, we conducted a new 3T fMRI experiment in five participants using an experimental design and texture families similar to those in Freeman (2013). All texture stimuli in the 7T experiment were also included. To assess the effectiveness of each stimulus type, different texture families and their corresponding noise patterns were presented in separate blocks for 24 seconds, at a high presentation rate of 5 frames per second. In Figure S7, all texture families showed significantly stronger activation in V2 compared to their corresponding noise patterns, even for those that ‘appeared’ to have residual texture (e.g., the third texture family). These results suggest that our texture stimuli were effective in producing texture-selective activations in area V2 compared to the noise control. Compared to the 7T results, the 3T data showed a notable increase in texture-selective activations in V2, likely due to the increased stimulus presentation speed (1.25 vs. 5 frames/second). Weak texture activations might preclude the detection of columnar representations in the 7T experiment.

      (c) Thank you for pointing out the possible structures of texture-selective activations in the peripheral visual field (Figure S1). In further analyses, we also found stronger texture selectivity in more peripheral visual fields (Figure 2D), and there were weak but significant correlations in the texture-noise activation patterns during split-half analysis (Author response image 2). Although these are not strong evidence for columnar organization of naturalistic textures, it suggests a possibility for such organizations in the peripheral visual field.

      (d) Although our fMRI result at 1-mm isotropic resolution did not show strong evidence for modular processing of naturalistic texture in V2 stripe columns, this does not exclude the possibility that smaller modules exist beyond the current fMRI resolution. We have discussed these limitations in the revised manuscript.

      We fully agree with your explanation in (e). It fits our data very well. Both texture and control stimuli strongly activated the CO-stripes (Figure 2 and Figure 2D), while modular organizations for texture were found in V4 and V3ab (Figure S9). We have discussed this explanation in the revised manuscript.

      In Line 371-374: “Consistently, our pilot results also revealed modular organizations for textures in V4 and V3ab (Figure S9). These texture-selective organizations may be related to surface representations in these higher order visual areas (Wang et al., 2024).”

      (2) Overly simple description of FF, FB circuitry. The classic anatomical definition of feedforward is output from a 'lower' area, in most cases predominantly arising from superficial layers and projecting to middle layers of a 'higher area' (Felleman and Van Essen 1991). This description holds for V1-to-V2, V2-to-V3, and V2-to-V4. [Note there are also feedforward projections from central 5 degrees of V1-to-V4 (cf. Ungerleider) as well as V3-to-V4.] The definition of feedback can be more varied but is generally considered from cells in superficial and deep layers of 'higher' areas projecting to superficial and deep layers of 'lower' areas. Feedback inputs to V1 heavily innervate Layer 1 and superficial Layer 2, as well as the deep layers. Note that feedback connections from V2 to V1, similar to that from V1 to V2, are functionally specific, i.e. thin-to-blob and pale/thick-to interblob (Federer...Angelucci 2021, Hu...Roe 2022). Thus, current views are moving away from the dogma that feedback is diffuse. Recognition that feedback may be modular introduces new ideas about analysis.

      Thanks for your detailed recommendations. We have expanded the discussion of circuit models of functional connectivity in the introduction. Our model and experiments primarily aim to investigate how higher-level areas provide feedback to the V2 area. While we acknowledge that feedback may indeed be functionally specific, our methodology has some certain advantages: it ensures signal stability and avoids the double-dipping issue. Meanwhile, it also focuses on voxels with high feature selectivity, which may already be included in the modular organizations of early visual areas. In the functional connectivity analysis, we performed feature selection to use the most informative voxels. These voxels with high feature selectivity should already be included in the modular organizations of early visual areas. Identifying functionally specific feedback connections between modular areas will be an important and meaningful work for future research. We have added a discussion of this topic in the revised manuscript.

      In Line 136-138: “Only major connections were shown here. There are also other connections, such as V1 interblobs projecting to thick stripes (Federer et al., 2021; Hu & Roe, 2022; Sincich and Horton, 2005).”

      (3) Imaging superficial layers: Although removal of the top layer of cortical voxels (top 5% of voxels) is a common method for dealing with surface vascular artifact contribution to BOLD signal, it likely removes a portion of the Layer 1&2 feedback signals. Is this why the authors define feedback and deep layer to deep layer? If so, both superficial and deep-layer data in Figure 4 should be explicitly explained and discussed.

      Thank you for pointing this out. We would like to clarify the surface-based method removing vascular artifact. The vertices influenced by large pial veins were first defined on the cortical surface, and then voxels were removed from the entire columns corresponding to these vertices to avoid sampling bias along the cortical depth. Thus, there should be complete data from all cortical depths for the remaining columns. We defined the feedback connectivity from deep layers to deep layers because it represents strong feedback connections according to literature (Markov et al., 2013; Ullman, 1995) and also avoids confounding the feedforward signals from superficial layers.

      Markov, N. T., Vezoli, J., Chameau, P., Falchier, A., Quilodran, R., Huissoud, C., Lamy, C., Misery, P., Giroud, P., Ullman, S., Barone, P., Dehay, C., Knoblauch, K., & Kennedy, H. (2014). Anatomy of hierarchy: feedforward and feedback pathways in macaque visual cortex. The Journal of comparative neurology, 522(1), 225–259. https://doi.org/10.1002/cne.23458

      Ullman S. (1995). Sequence seeking and counter streams: a computational model for bidirectional information flow in the visual cortex. Cerebral cortex, 5(1), 1–11. https://doi.org/10.1093/cercor/5.1.1

      (4) More detail on other subjects in Figure S1. Ten subjects conducted visual fixation and used a bite bar. Imaging data are illustrated in detail from one subject and the remaining subjects are depicted in graphs and in Supplemental Figure S1. Please provide arrowheads in each image to help guide the reader. Some kind of summary or index of modularity would also be helpful.

      Thanks for your suggestions. There are arrowheads in each image in our original manuscript and we have revised Figure S1 for better illustration. Additionally, we have added a table summarizing the number of stripes to provide a clearer overview.

      (5) How are ROIs in V3ab and V4 defined? V2 ROIs were defined (thin, thick, and pale stripe), but V3ab and V4 averaged across the whole area. Why not use the most activated "domains" from V3ab and V4? How does this influence connectivity analysis?

      Thank you for your question. We defined V4 and V3ab on the cortical surface using a retinotopic atlas (Benson 2018), which has been shown to be quite accurate in defining ROIs for the early visual areas. Since all ‘domains’ showed robust BOLD activation to our stimuli, we used voxels from the entire ROI in the depth-dependent analysis. In the functional connectivity analysis, we used the most informative voxels by feature selection, which should already be included in the feature domains.

      Minor:

      English language editing is needed.

      Thank you for your feedback. We have carefully revised the manuscript for clarity and readability.

      Line 31 "its" should be "their".

      Thank you. We have corrected "its" to "their".

      Replace 'representative subject' with 'subject'.

      We have replaced "representative subject" with "subject" in the manuscript.

      Replace 'naturalistic texture' with 'texture'.

      Thank you for your suggestion. The textures used in our experiment were generated based on the algorithm by Portilla and Simoncelli (2000), and the term "naturalistic texture" was used to be consistent with literature. The textures used in our study are different from traditional artificial textures, as they contain higher-order statistical dependencies. Following your recommendations, we have replaced ‘naturalistic texture’ with ‘texture’ in some places in the main text to improve readability.

      Typo: Line 126, Fig 2B should be 1B.

      Thank you. We have corrected "Fig 2B" to "Fig 1B" in Line 128.

      Fig. 2A: point out where are texture domains in anterior V2.

      The texture-selective activations in anterior V2 (corresponds to peripheral visual field) have been highlighted by arrowheads.

      Fig 2B, 3 legend: Round symbols are for each subject?

      Yes, the round symbols in Figures 2B represent data for individual participants. We have revised the legend for clarity.

      Fig. 3: Disparity and texture values do not look different across depth (except may the V2 texture values).

      While the difference in feature selectivity is small across cortical depths, they are highly consistent across participants. We have provided a figure showing the original BOLD responses in the revised manuscript (Figure S8 and Figure S8). Data from individual subjects were also available at Open Science Framework (OSF, https://doi.org/10.17605/OSF.IO/KSXT8 (‘rawBetaValues.mat’ in the data directory)).

      Line 57-59 The statement is not strictly accurate. V1 also has color, orientation, and motion representations.

      Thank you for your feedback. Our statement was intended to convey that M and P information from the geniculate input are transformed into representations of color, orientation, disparity, and motion in the primary visual cortex. We have clarified this point in the revised manuscript.

      In Line 58-60: “In the primary visual cortex (V1), the M and P information from the geniculate input are transformed into higher-level visual representations, such as motion, disparity, color, orientation, etc. (Tootell & Nasr, 2017).”

      Fig. 1B V1 interblobs also project to thick stripes (Sincich and Horton).

      Thank you for the additional information. We appreciate your input. Our figure is intended as a simplified schematic and does not fully represent all the connections. We have discussed this reference in the revised manuscript.

      In Line 136-138: “Only major connections were shown here. There are also other connections, such as V1 interblobs projecting to thick stripes (Federer et al., 2021; Hu & Roe, 2022; Sincich and Horton, 2005).”

      Line 207 "suggesting that both local and feedforward connections are involved in processing color information in area V2." Logic? English?

      Thank you for pointing this out. The superficial layers are involved in local intracortical processing by lateral connections and also send output to higher order visual areas along the feedforward pathway. Thus, the strongest color selectivity in the superficial depth of V2 supports that color information was processed in local neural circuits in area V2 and transmitted to higher order areas along the feedforward pathway. We have revised the manuscript for clarity.

      In Line 241-245: “According to the hierarchical model, the strongest color selectivity in the superficial cortical depth is consistent with the fact that color blobs locate in the superficial layers of V1 (Figure 1B, Felleman & Van Essen, 1991; Hubel & Livingstone, 1987; Nassi & Callaway, 2009). The strongest color selectivity in superficial V2 suggests that both local and feedforward connections are involved in processing color information (Figure 1C).”

      Line 254 "Laminar". Please use "cortical depth" or explicitly state that 'laminar' refers to superficial, middle, and deep as defined by cortical depth.

      Thank you for your suggestion. We have clarified the term "laminar" in the manuscript as referring to superficial, middle, and deep layers as defined by cortical depth.

      In Line 96-99: “To better understand the mesoscale functional organizations and neural circuits of information processing in area V2, the present study investigated laminar (or cortical depth-dependent) and columnar response profiles for color, disparity, and naturalistic texture in human V2 using 7T fMRI at 1-mm isotropic resolution.”

      Fig. S5 Please add a unit of isoluminance.

      Thank you for your suggestion. Supplementary Figure S10A and S10B illustrate the blue-matched luminance levels in RGB index. In our isoluminance experiment, blue was set as the reference color (RGB [0 0 255]) to measure the red and gray isoluminance.

      Line 448-449 To make this rationale clearer, refer to:

      Wang J, Nasr S, Roe AW, Polimeni JR. 2022. Critical factors in achieving fine‐scale functional MRI: Removing sources of inadvertent spatial smoothing. Human Brain Mapping. 43:3311-3331.

      Thank you for your suggestion. We have added this reference to better support the rationale of data analysis.

      Reviewer #2:

      (1) Line 126 should refer to Figure 1B.

      Thank you. We have corrected the reference in the revised manuscript as Figure 1B.

      (2) Even if only one naturalistic texture session was acquired per participant, it might be interesting to see the within-session repeatability by, e.g., splitting the texture runs into two halves.

      Thank you for your suggestion. We performed a split-half correlation analysis for participants who completed 10 runs in the naturalistic texture session. The result from one representative subject was shown in the figure below (for other participants, r = 0.38, 0.38, 0.24, and 0.23, respectively).

      Author response image 2.

      Split-half correlations for the texture-selective activation maps in a representative subject (S01) in V2.

      (3) Unfortunately, Figure S2 only shows the stripe ROIs but not V3ab or V4 ROIs. Including another figure that shows all ROIs in more detail would be interesting.

      Thank you for your suggestion. We have included a figure showing the ROIs for V4 and V3ab (the black dotted lines in Figure S9).

      (4) It would be helpful for the reader to have a more detailed discussion about methodological limitations, including the unspecificity of the GE-BOLD signal (Engel et al., 1997, Cereb Cortex, 7, 181-192; Parkes et al., 2005, MRM, 54, 1465-1472; Fracasso et al., 2021, Prog Neurobiol, 202, 102187) and the used voxel sizes.

      Thank you for your suggestion. We have added a more detailed discussion about the methodological limitations, including the unspecificity of the GE-BOLD signal and the voxel sizes used.

      In Line 397-408: “Due to the limitations of the T2*w GE-BOLD signal in its sensitivity to large draining veins (Fracasso et al., 2021; Parkes et al., 2005; Uludag & Havlicek, 2021), the original BOLD responses were strongly biased towards the superficial depth in our data (Figure S8). Compared to GE-BOLD, VASO-CBV and SE-BOLD fMRI techniques have higher spatial specificity but much lower sensitivity (Huber et al., 2019). As shown in a recent study (Qian et al., 2024), using differential BOLD responses in a continuous¬¬ stimulus design can significantly enhance the laminar specificity of the feature selectivity measures in our results (Figure 3). Compared to the submillimeter voxels, as used in most laminar fMRI studies, our fMRI resolution at 1-mm isotropic voxel may have a stronger partial volume effect in the cortical depth-dependent analysis. However, consistent with our results, previous studies have also shown that 7T fMRI at 1-mm isotropic resolution can resolve cortical depth-dependent signals in human visual cortex (Roefs et al., 2024; Shao et al., 2021).”

      (5) If I understand correctly, different numbers of runs/sessions were acquired for different subjects. It would be good to discuss if this could have impacted the results, e.g., different effect sizes could have biased the manual ROI definition.

      Thank you for your suggestion. Although there were differences in the number of runs/sessions acquired for different subjects, there were at least four runs of data for each experiment, which should be enough to examine the within-subject effect. We have discussed this point in the revised manuscript.

      In Line 481-484: “Although the number of runs were not equal across participants, there were at least four runs (twenty blocks for each stimulus condition) of data in each experiment, which should be sufficient to investigate within-subject effects.”

      (6) It would be good to add the software used for layer definition. Was it Laynii?

      We have provided more details in the revised methods.

      In Line 523-526: “An equi-volume method was used to calculate the relative cortical depth of each voxel to the white matter and pial surface (0: white matter surface, 1: pial surface, Supplementary Figure S11A), using mripy (https://github.com/herrlich10/mripy).”

      (7) It would be interesting to see (at least for one subject) the contrasts of color-selective thin stripes and disparity-selective thick stripes from single sessions to demonstrate the repeatability of measurements.

      Thank you for your suggestion. We have shown the test-retest reliability of the response pattern of color-selective thin stripes and disparity-selective thick stripes in a representative subject in Figure S5.

      (8) By any chance, do the authors also have resting-state data from the same subjects? It would be interesting to see the connectivity analysis between stripes and V3ab, V4 with resting-state data.

      Thank you for your suggestion. Unfortunately, we do not have resting-state data from the same subjects at this time. We agree with you that layer-specific connectivity analysis with resting-state data is very interesting and worth investigating in future studies.

      Reviewer #3:

      (1) For investigating information flow across areas, the authors rely on layer-specific informational connectivity analyses, which is an exciting approach. Covariation in decoding accuracy for a specific dependent variable between the superficial layers of a lower area and the middle layer of a higher area is taken as evidence for feedforward connectivity, whereas FB was defined as the connection between the two deep layers. Yet this method is not assumption-free. For example, the canonical idea (Figure 1C) of FF terminals exclusively arriving in layer 4 and FB terminals exclusively terminating in supra-or infragranular layers is not entirely correct. This is not even the case for area V1 - see for example Kathy Rockland's exquisite tractography studies, showing that even single axons with branches terminating in different layers. Also, feedback signals not only arrive in the deep layers of a lower area. Although these informational connectivity analyses can be suggestive of information flow, this reviewer doubts it can be considered as conclusive evidence. Therefore, the authors should drastically tone down their language in this respect, throughout the text. They present suggestive, not conclusive evidence. To obtain truly conclusive evidence, one likely has to perform laminar electrophysiological recordings simultaneously across multiple areas and infer the directionality of information flow using, for example, granger causality.

      Thank you for pointing out this important issue. In our response to a previous question (Reviewer #1, the 2nd comment), we have discussed other possible connections in addition to the canonical feedforward and feedback pathways. In the revised manuscript, the conclusion has been toned down to properly reflect our findings. However, we would also like to emphasize that our conclusion about laminar circuits was supported by converging lines of evidence. For example, in addition to the depth-dependent connectivity results, the role of feedback circuit in processing texture information was also supported by greater selectivity in V4 than V2, and the strongest deep layer selectivity in V2 (Figure 3C).

      (2) In the same realm, how reproducible are the information connectivity results? In the first part of the study, the authors performed a split-half analyses. This should be also done for Figure 4.

      Thank you for your suggestion. We have performed a split-half analysis for the informational connectivity results. As shown in Author response image 3, the results for the color experiment were robust and reproducible, while the disparity and texture connectivity results were less consistent between the two halves. The results from the second half (Author response image 3, below) are more consistent with the original findings (Figure 4). Overall, the pattern of results were qualitatively similar between the two halves. The inconsistency may be due to the fact that some participants had only four runs of data, which could make the split-half analysis less reliable.

      Author response image 3.

      Split-half analysis of informational connectivity.

      (3) Most of the other layer-specific claims (not the ones about the flow of information) are based on indices. It is unclear which ROIs contributed to these indices. Was it the entire extent of V1, V2, ...? Or only the visually-driven voxels within these areas? How exactly were the voxels selected? For V2, it would make sense to calculate the selectivity indices independently for the disparity and color-selective (putative) thick and (putative) thin stripe compartments, respectively. Adding voxels of non-selective compartments (e.g. putative thick stripe voxels for calculating the color-index; or adding putative thin-strip voxels for calculating the disparity index), will only add noise.

      In the revised manuscript, we have clarified that we selected the entire ROI in the depth-dependent analysis. Since our study does not have an independent functional localizer, using the entire ROI avoids the problem of double dipping. The processing of visual features is not confined solely to specific stripes. We have also provided a more comprehensive explanation of this issue in the discussion section.

      In Line 541-544: “For the cortical depth-dependent analyses in Figure 3, we used all voxels in the retinotopic ROI. Pooling all voxels in the ROI avoids the problem of double-dipping and also increases the signal-to-noise ratio of ROI-averaged BOLD responses.”

      (4) It is apparent from Figure 3, that the indices are largely (though not exclusively) driven by 2 subjects. Therefore, this reviewer wishes to see the raw data in addition to a table for calculating the color, disparity, and texture selectivity indices -along with the number of voxels that contributed to it.

      Thank you for your suggestion. We have provided a figure showing the original BOLD responses (Figure S8 and Figure S8). Data from individual subjects were also available at Open Science Framework (OSF, https://doi.org/10.17605/OSF.IO/KSXT8 (‘rawBetaValues.mat’ in the data directory)).

      Minor:

      (1) I typically find inferences about 'layer fMRI' vastly overstated. We all know that fMRI does not (yet) provide laminar-specific resolution, i.e., whereby meaningful differences in fMRI signals can be extracted from all 6 individual layers of neocortex, without partial volume effects, or without taking into account pre-and postsynaptic contributions of neurons to the fMRI signal (the cell bodies may very well lay in different layers than the dendritic trees etc.), or without taking into account the vascular anatomy, etc. The authors should use the term cortical depth-dependent fMRI throughout the text -as they do in the abstract and intro.

      Thank you for pointing out this important issue. We have now defined the meaning of layer or laminar as “cortical depth-dependent” in the introduction, to be consistent with the terminology in most published papers on this topic.

      (2) 1st sentence abstract: I disagree with this statement. The parallel streams in intermediate-level areas are probably equally well studied as the geniculostriate pathway -already starting with the seminal work of Hubel, Livingstone, and more recently by Angelucci and co-workers who looked in detail at the anatomical and functional interactions across sub-compartments of V1 and V2.

      Thank you for your feedback. In the revised manuscript, we have removed the term "much" from the first sentence of the abstract. Although there have been seminal studies of V2 sub-compartments in monkeys, only a few fMRI studies investigated this issue in humans.

      (3) The authors show inter-session correlations for color and disparity. This reviewer would like to see test-retest images since the explained variance is not terribly good. Also, show the correlation values for the inter-session texture beta values.

      Thank you for your suggestion. We have performed the test-retest reliability analysis of texture-selective patterns in the response to a previous question (Reviewer #2, the 2nd comment, Author response image 2).

      (4) The stripe definitions are threshold dependent. Please clarify whether the reported results are threshold-independent.

      Thank you for your question. To address your concern, we defined the stripe ROIs using different thresholds, and the results remained consistent. Specifically, we ranked the voxels in manually defined stripe ROIs by the color-disparity response. We then defined the lowest 10% as the thick stripe voxels, the highest 10% as thin stripe voxels, and the middle 10% as pale stripe voxels. Additionally, we adjusted the thresholds to 20% and 30% to define the three stripes (with 30% being the least strict threshold). Feature selectivities at different thresholds were shown in Figure S6 (from left to right: 10%, 20%, 30%). Notably, in all threshold conditions, there was no significant difference in texture selectivity across different stripes.

      (5) How were the visual areas defined?

      In the revised manuscript, we have provided a detailed description about methods.

      In Line 531-535: “ROIs were defined on the inflated cortical surface. Surface ROIs for V1, V2, V3ab, and V4 were defined based on the polar angle atlas from the 7T retinotopic dataset of Human Connectome Project (Benson et al., 2014, 2018). Moreover, the boundary of V2 was edited manually based on columnar patterns. All ROIs were constrained to regions where mean activation across all stimulus conditions exceeded 0.”

      (6) "According to the hierarchical model in Figure 1B and 1C, the strongest color selectivity in the superficial cortical depth is consistent with the fact that color blobs mainly locate in the superficial layers of V1, suggesting that both local and feedforward connections are involved in processing color information in area V2." But color-selective activation within V2 could be also consistent with feedback from other areas (some of which were not covered in the present experiments) -the more since most parts of the brain were not covered (i.e. a slab of 4 cm was covered)?

      Thank you for reminding us about this issue. We have discussed the possibility of feedback influence in explanation of the superficial bias of color selectivity in area V2.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews: 

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary: 

      Authors benchmarked 5 IBD detection methods (hmmIBD, isoRelate, hap-IBD, phasedIBD, and Refined IBD) in Plasmodium falciparum using simulated and empirical data. Plasmodium falciparum has a mutation rate similar to humans but a much higher recombination rate and lower SNP density. Thus, the authors evaluated how recombination rate and marker density affect IBD segment detection. Next, they performed parameter optimization for Plasmodium falciparum and benchmarked the robustness of downstream analyses (selection detection and Ne inference) using IBD detected by each of the methods. They also tracked the computational efficiency of these methods. The authors work is valuable for the tested species and the analyses presented appear to support their claim that users should be cautious calling IBD when SNP density is low and recombination rate is high. 

      Strengths: 

      The study design was solid. The authors set up their reasoning for using P. falciparum very well. The high recombination rate and similar mutation rate to humans is indeed an interesting case. Further, they chose methods that were developed explicitly for each species. This was a strength of the work, as well as incorporating both simulated and empirical data to support their goal that IBD detection should be benchmarked in P. falciparum

      Weaknesses: 

      The scope of the optimization and application of results from the work are narrow, in that everything is finetuned for Plasmodium. Some of the results were not entirely unexpected for users of any of the tested software that was developed for humans. For example, it is known that Refined IBD is not going to do well with the combination of short IBD segments and low SNP density. Lastly, it appears the authors only did one largescale simulation (there are no reported SDs). 

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting the strengths and weaknesses of the study. 

      First, we would like to highlight that: (1) while we use Plasmodium as a model to investigate the impact of high recombination and low marker density on IBD detection and downstream analyses, our IBD benchmarking framework and strategies are widely applicable to IBD methods development for many sexually recombining species including both Plasmodium and non-Plasmodium species. (2) Although some results are not completely unexpected, such as the impact of low marker density on IBD detection, IBD-based methods have been increasingly used in malaria genomic surveillance research without comprehensive benchmarking for malaria parasites despite the high recombination rate. Due to the lack of benchmarking, researchers use a variety of different IBD callers for malaria research including those that are only benchmarked in human genomes, such as refined-ibd. Our work not only confirmed that low marker density (related to high recombination rate) can affect the accuracy of IBD detection, but also demonstrated the importance of proper parameter optimization and tool prioritization for specific downstream analyses in malaria research. We believe our work significantly contributes to the robustness of IBD segment detection and the enhancement of IBDbased malaria genomic surveillance.

      Second, we agree that there is a lack of clarity regarding simulation replicates and the uncertainty of reported estimates. We have made the following improvements, including (1) running n = 3 full sets of simulations for each analysis purpose, which is in addition to the large sample sizes and chromosomal-level replications already presented in our initial submission, and (2) updating data and figures to reflect the uncertainty at relevant levels (segment level, genome-pair level or simulation set level).   

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary: 

      Guo et al. benchmarked and optimized methods for detecting Identity-By-Descent (IBD) segments in Plasmodium falciparum (Pf) genomes, which are characterized by high recombination rates and low marker density. Their goal was to address the limitations of existing IBD detection tools, which were primarily developed for human genomes and do not perform well in the genomic context of highly recombinant genomes. They first analysed various existing IBD callers, such as hmmIBD, isoRelate, hap-IBD, phased-IBD, refinedIBD. They focused on the impact of recombination on the accuracy, which was calculated based on two metrics, the false negative rate and the false positive rate. The results suggest that high recombination rates significantly reduce marker density, leading to higher false negative rates for short IBD segments. This effect compromises the reliability of IBD-based downstream analyses, such as effective population size (Ne) estimation. They showed that the best tool for IBD detection in Pf is hmmIBD, because it has relatively low FN/FP error rates and is less biased for relatedness estimates. However, this method is less computationally efficient. Their suggestion is to optimize human-oriented IBD methods and use hmmIBD only for the estimation of Ne. 

      Strengths: 

      Although I am not an expert on Plasmodium falciparum genetics, I believe the authors have developed a valuable benchmarking framework tailored to the unique genomic characteristics of this species. Their framework enables a thorough evaluation of various IBD detection tools for non-human data, such as high recombination rates and low marker density, addressing a key gap in the field. This study provides a

      comparison of multiple IBD detection methods, including probabilistic approaches (hmmIBD, isoRelate) and IBS-based methods (hap-IBD, Refined IBD, phased IBD). This comprehensive analysis offers researchers valuable guidance on the strengths and limitations of each tool, allowing them to make informed choices based on specific use cases. I think this is important beyond the study of Pf. The authors highlight how optimized IBD detection can help identify signals of positive selection, infer effective population size (Ne), and uncover population structure. They demonstrate the critical importance of tailoring analytical tools to suit the unique characteristics of a species. Moreover, the authors provide practical recommendations, such as employing hmmIBD for quality-sensitive analyses and fine-tuning parameters for tools originally designed for non-P. falciparum datasets before applying them to malaria research. 

      Overall, this study represents a meaningful contribution to both computational biology and malaria genomics, with its findings and recommendations likely to have an impact on the field. 

      Weaknesses: 

      One weakness of the study is the lack of emphasis on the broader importance of studying Plasmodium falciparum as a critical malaria-causing organism. Malaria remains a significant global health challenge, causing hundreds of thousands of deaths annually. The authors could have introduced better the topic, even though I understand this is a methodological paper. While the study provides a thorough technical evaluation of IBD detection methods and their application to Pf, it does not adequately connect these findings to the broader implications for malaria research and control efforts. Additionally, the discussion on malaria and its global impact could have framed the study in a more accessible and compelling way, making the importance of these technical advances clearer to a broader audience, including researchers and policymakers in the fight against malaria. 

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting the need to better contextualize the work and emphasize its relevance to malaria control and elimination efforts. We have edited the introduction and discussion sections to highlight the importance of studying Plasmodium as malaria-causing organisms and why IBD-based analysis is important to malaria researchers and policymakers. We believe the changes will better emphasize the public health relevance of the work and improve clarity for a general audience.  

      We would like to clarify that we are not recommending that researchers “optimize human-oriented IBD methods and use hmmIBD only for the estimation of Ne.” We recommended hmmIBD for Ne analysis; however, hmmIBD can be utilized for other applications, including population structure and selection detection. Thus, we generally recommend using hmmIBD for Plasmodium when phased genotypes are available. To avoid potential misunderstandings, we have revised relevant sentences in the abstract, introduction, and discussion. One reason to consider human-oriented IBD detection methods in Plasmodium research is that hmmIBD currently has limitations in handling large genomic datasets. Our ongoing research focuses on improving hmmIBD to reduce its computational runtime, making it scalable for large Plasmodium wholegenome sequence datasets.

      Recommendations for the authors

      Reviewer #1:

      (1) Additional experiments 

      (i) More simulation replicates would be valuable here. The way that results are presented, it appears as though there are no replicates. Apologies if I am incorrect, but when looking through the authors code the --num_reps defaults to one simulation and there are no SDs reported for any figure. Perhaps the authors are bypass replicates by taking a random sample of lineages? Some clarification here would be great. 

      We agree with the reviewer’s constructive suggestions. We have increased the number of simulation sets to (n = 3) in addition to the existing replicates at the chromosomal level. We did not use a larger n for full sets of simulation replicates for two reasons: (1) full replication is quite computationally intensive (n=3 simulation sets already require a week to run on our computer cluster with hundreds of CPU cores). (2), the results from different simulation sets are highly consistent with each other, likely due to our large sample size (n= 1000 haploid genomes for each parameter combination).  The consistency across simulation sets can be exemplified by the following figures (Author response image 1 and 2) based on simulation sets different from Figures and Supplementary Figures included in the manuscript. 

      Author response image 1.

      Additional simulation sets repeating experiments shown in Fig 2.

      Author response image 2.

      Post-optimization Ne estimates based on three independent simulation sets (Fig 5 shows data simulation set 1).

      In our updated figures, we address the uncertainty of measurements as follows:

      (1) For IBD accuracy based on overlapping IBD segments, we present the mean ± standard deviation (SD) at the segment level (IBD segment false positives and false negatives for each length bin) or genome-pair level (IBD error rates at the genome-wide level). Figures in the revised manuscript show results from one of the three simulation set replicates. The SD of IBD segment accuracy is included in all relevant figures. In the S2 Data file, we chose not to show SDs to avoid text overcrowding in the heatmaps; however, a detailed version, including SD plotting on the heatmap and across three simulation set replicates, is available on our GitHub repository at https://github.com/bguo068/bmibdcaller_simulations/tree/main/simulations/ext_data

      (2) For IBD-based genetic relatedness, the uncertainty is depicted in scatterplots.

      (3) For IBD-based selection signal scans, we provide the mean ± SD of the number of true selection signals and false selection signals. The SD is calculated at the simulation set level (n=3). 

      (4) For IBD network community detection, the mean ± SD of the adjusted Rand index is reported at the simulation set level (n=3). A representative simulation set is randomly chosen for visualization purposes.

      (5) For IBD-based Ne estimates, each simulation set provides confidence intervals via bootstrapping. We found Ne estimates across n=3 simulation sets to be highly consistent and decided to display Ne from one of the simulation sets.

      (6) For the measurement of computational efficiency and memory usage, the mean ± SD was calculated across chromosomes from the same simulation sets.

      We have included a paragraph titled "Replications and Uncertainty of Measures" in the methods section to clarify simulation replications. Additionally, a table of simulation replicates is provided in the new S1 Data file under the sheet named “02_simulation_replicates.”

      (ii) I might also recommend a table or illustrative figure with all the simulation parameters for the readers rather than them having to go to and through a previous paper to get a sense of the tested parameters. 

      We have now generated tables containing full lists of simulation/IBD calling parameters. We have organized the tables into two sections: simulation parameters and IBD calling parameters. For the simulations, we are using three demographic models: the single-population (SP) model, the multiple-population (MP) model, and the human population demography in the UK (UK) model, each with different sets of parameters. Parameters and their values are listed separately for each demographic model (SP, MP and UK). For the IBD calling, we have five different IBD callers, each with different parameters. We have provided lists of the parameters and their values separately for each caller. In total, there are 15 different combinations of 3 demographic models in simulation and five callers in IBD detection (Author response image 3). We provide a table for each of the 15 combinations. We also provide a single large table by concatenating all 15 tables. In the combined table, demographic model-specific or IBD caller-specific parameters are displayed in their own columns, with NA values (empty cells) appearing in rows where these parameters are not applied (see S2 Data file).

      Author response image 3.

      Schematic of combined parameters from simulations and IBD detection (also included in the S2 Data file)

      (2) Recommendations for improving the writing and presentation 

      Overall, the writing was great, especially the introduction. 

      Three thoughts: 

      (i) It would be great if the authors included a few sentences with guidance on the approach one would take if their organism was not human or P. falciparum

      We have updated our discussion with the following statement: “Beyond Plasmodium parasites, there are many other high-recombining organisms such as Apicomplexan species like Theileria, insects like Apis mellifera (honeybee), and fungi like Saccharomyces cerevisiae (Baker's yeast). For these species, our optimized parameters may not be directly applicable, but the benchmarking framework established in this study can be utilized to prioritize and optimize IBD detection methods in a context-specific manner.”

      (ii) I think there was a lot of confusion about the simulations as they were presented between the co-reviewer and I. Clarification on whether there were replicates and how sampling of lineages occurred would be helpful for a reader. 

      We have added a paragraph with heading “Replications and uncertainty of measures” under the method section to clarify simulation replicates.  Please also refer to our response above for more details (Reviewer #1 (1) Additional experiments).

      (iii) Maybe we missed it, but could the authors add a sentence or two about why isoRelate performed so poorly (e.g. lines 206-207) considering it was developed for Plasmodium? This result seems important. 

      IsoRelate assumes non-phased genotypes as input; therefore, even if phased genotypes are provided, the HMM model used in isoRelate (distinct from the hmmIBD model) may not utilize them. Below, we present examples of IBD segments between true sets and inferred sets from both isoRelate and hmmIBD, where many small IBD segments identified by tskibd (ground truth) and hmmIBD (inferred) are not detected by isoRelate (inferred), although isoRelate still captures very long IBD segments. These patterns are also illustrated in Fig. 3 and S3 Fig. We acknowledge that isoRelate may outperform other methods in the context of unphased genotypes. However, we chose not to benchmark IBD calling methods using unphased genotypes in simulations, as the results may be significantly influenced by the quality of genotype phasing for all other IBD detection methods. The characterization of deconvolution methods is beyond the scope of this paper. We have added a paragraph in the discussion to reflect the above explanation.

      Author response image 4.

      Example IBD segments inferred by isoRelate and hmmIBD compared to true IBD segments calculated by tskibd.

      (3) Minor corrections to the text and figures 

      Lines 105-110 feel like introduction because the authors are defining IBD and goals of work 

      We have shortened these sentences and retained only relevant information for transition purposes. 

      Line 121-122 The definition of false positive is incorrect, it appears to be the exact text from false negative 

      We apologize for the typo and have corrected the definition, so that  it is consistent with that in the methods section. 

      Lines 177-180 feels more like discussion than results 

      We have removed this sentence for brevity. 

      Figure 1: 

      Remove plot titles from the figure 

      Write out number in a 

      The legend in b overlaps the data so moving that inset to the right would be helpful 

      We have removed the titles from Figure 1. In Figure 1a, we have changed the format of  the y-axis tick labels from scientific notation to integers.  In Figure 1b, we have adjusted the size and location of the legend so that it does not overlap with the data points.

      Figure 2-3 & S4-5: 

      It was hard to tell the difference between [3-4) and [10-18) because the colors and shapes are similar. It might be worth using a different color or shape for one of them? 

      We have changed the color for the [10-18) group so that the two groups are easier to distinguish.

      Figure 3 & S3-5: 

      Biggest suggestion is that when an axis is logged it should not only be mentioned in the caption but also should be shown in the figure as well. 

      We have updated all relevant figures so that the log scale is noted in the figure captions (legends) as well as in the figures (in the x and/or y axis labels).

      Supplementary Figure S2 

      (i) It would be nice to either combine it with the main text Figure 1 (I don't believe it would be overwhelming) or add in the other two methods for comparison 

      We have now plotted data for all five IBD callers in S1 Fig for better comparison. 

      (ii) the legend overlaps the data so relocating it to the top or bottom would be helpful 

      We have moved the legend to the bottom of the figure to avoid overlap with the data.

      Reviewer #2:

      I don't have any major comments on the paper. It is well-written, although perhaps a bit long and repetitive in some sections. Make sure not to repeat the same concepts too many times. 

      We have consolidated and removed several paragraphs to reduce repetition of the same concepts.

      I am not a methodological developer, but it seems you have addressed several challenges regarding IBD detection in P. falciparum. You have also acknowledged the study's caveats, which I agree with. 

      Thank you for the positive comments.

      Minor comments: 

      -In my opinion, the paper would benefit from including the workflow figure in the main text rather than keeping it in the supplementary materials. This would make it more accessible and useful for readers. 

      We have moved the original S1 Fig to be Fig 1 in the main text.

      -Some of the figures (e.g. Fig. 2, 4) should be larger for better clarity and interpretation. 

      We have updated Fig 2 and Fig 4 (now labeled as Figure 3 and 5) to make them larger for improved clarity and interpretation.

      -While the focus on P. falciparum is understandable, it would have been valuable to include examples of other species and discuss the broader implications of the findings for a broader field. 

      We have updated the third-to-last paragraph to discuss implications for other species, such as Apicomplexan species like Theileria, insects like Apis mellifera (honeybee), and fungi like Saccharomyces cerevisiae (Baker's Yeast). We acknowledge that optimal parameters and tool choices may vary among species due to differences in demographic history and evolutionary parameters. However, we emphasize that the methods outlined are adaptable for prioritizing and optimizing IBD detection methods in a context-specific manner across different species.

      -Figure 6 is somewhat confusing and could use clearer labeling or additional explanation to improve comprehension. 

      We have updated the labels and titles in the figure to improve clarity. We also edited the figure caption for better clarity.

      -Although hmmIBD outperformed other tools in accuracy, its computational inefficiency due to single-threaded execution poses a significant challenge for scaling to large datasets. The trade-off between accuracy and computational cost could be discussed in more detail. 

      We have added a paragraph in the discussion section to highlight the trade-off between accuracy and computation cost. We noted that we are developing an adapted tool to enhance the hmmIBD model and significantly reduce the runtime via parallelizing the IBD inference process.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The authors of this study use electron microscopy and 3D reconstruction techniques to study the morphology of distinct classes of Drosophila sensory neurons *across many neurons of the same class.* This is a comprehensive study attempting to look at nearly all the sensory neurons across multiple sensilla to determine a) how much morphological variability exists between and within neurons of different and similar sensory classes, and 2) identify dendritic features that may have evolved to support particular sensory functions. This study builds upon the authors' previous work, which allowed them to identify and distinguish sensory neuron subtypes in the EM volumes without additional staining so that reconstructed neurons could reliably be placed in the appropriate class. This work is unique in looking at a large number of individual neurons of the same class to determine what is consistent and what is variable about their class-specific morphologies.

      This means that in addition to providing specific structural information about these particular cells, the authors explore broader questions of how much morphological diversity exists between sensory neurons of the same class and how different dendritic morphologies might affect sensory and physiological properties of neurons.

      The authors found that CO2-sensing neurons have an unusual, sheet-like morphology in contrast to the thin branches of odor-sensing neurons. They show that this morphology greatly increases the surface area to volume ratio above what could be achieved by modest branching of thin dendrites, and posit that this might be important for their sensory function, though this was not directly tested in their study. The study is mainly descriptive in nature, but thorough, and provides a nice jumping-off point for future functional studies. One interesting future analysis could be to examine all four cell types within a single sensilla together to see if there are any general correlations that could reveal insights about how morphology is determined and the relative contributions of intrinsic mechanisms vs interactions with neighboring cells. For example, if higher than average branching in one cell type correlated with higher than average branching in another type, if in the same sensilla. This might suggest higher extracellular growth or branching cues within a sensilla. Conversely, if higher branching in one cell type consistently leads to reduced length or branching in another, this might point to dendrite-dendrite interactions between cells undergoing competitive or repulsive interactions to define territories within each sensilla as a major determinant of the variability.

      We thank the reviewer for the insightful comments and appreciation for our study.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The manuscript employs serial block‐face electron microscopy (SBEM) and cryofixation to obtain high‐resolution, three‐dimensional reconstructions of Drosophila antennal sensilla containing olfactory receptor neurons (ORNs) that detectCO2. This method has been used previously by the same lab in Gonzales et. al, 2021. (https://elifesciences.org/articles/69896), which had provided an exemplary model by integrating high-resolution EM with electrophysiology and cell-type-specific labeling.

      We thank the reviewer for expressing appreciation for our published study.

      The previous study ended up correlating morphology with activity for multiple olfactory sensillar types. Compared to the 2021 study, this current manuscript appears somewhat incomplete and lacks integration with activity.

      We thank the reviewer for their feedback. However, we would like to clarify that our previous study did not correlate morphology with activity to a greater extent than the current study. Both employed the same cryofixation, SBEM-based approach without recording odor-induced activity, but the focus of the current work is fundamentally different. While the previous study examined multiple sensillum types, the current study concentrates on a single sensillum type to address a distinct biological question regarding morphological heterogeneity. We appreciate the opportunity to clarify this distinction, and we hope that the revised manuscript more clearly conveys the unique scope and contributions of this study.

      In fact older studies have also reported two-dimensional TEM images of the putative CO2 neuron in Drosophila (Shanbhag et al., 1999) and in mosquitoes (McIver and Siemicki, 1975; Lu et al, 2007), and in these instances reported that the dendritic architecture of the CO2 neuron was somewhat different (circular and flattened, lamellated) from other olfactory neurons.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. As noted in both the Introduction and Discussion sections, previous studies—including those cited by the reviewer—suggested that CO2-sensing neurons may have a distinct dendritic morphology. However, those earlier studies lacked the means to definitively link the observed morphology to CO2 neuron identity.

      In contrast, our study assigns neuronal identity based on quantitative morphometric measurements, allowing us to confidently associate the unique dendritic architecture with CO2 neurons. Furthermore, we extend previous observations by providing full 3D reconstructions and nanoscale morphometric analyses, offering a much more comprehensive and definitive characterization of these neurons. We believe this represents a significant advancement over earlier work.

      The authors claim that this approach offers an artifact‐minimized ultrastructural dataset compared to earlier. In this study, not only do they confirm this different morphology but also classify it into distinct subtypes (loosely curled, fully curled, split, and mixed). This detailed morphological categorization was not provided in prior studies (e.g., Shanbhag et al., 1999).

      We thank the reviewer for acknowledging the significance of our study.

      The authors would benefit from providing quantitative thresholds or objective metrics to improve reproducibility and to clarify whether these structural distinctions correlate with distinct functional roles.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this point. However, we would like to clarify that assigning neurons to strict morphological subtypes was not the primary aim of our study. In practice, dendritic architectures can be highly complex, with individual neurons often displaying features characteristic of multiple subtypes. This is precisely why we included a “mixed” subtype category—to acknowledge and capture this morphological heterogeneity rather than impose rigid classification boundaries.

      Our intent in defining subtypes was not to imply discrete functional classes, but rather to highlight the range of morphological variation observed across ab1C neurons. While we agree that exploring potential correlations between structure and function is an important future direction, the current study focuses on characterizing this diversity using 3D reconstruction and morphometric analysis. We hope this clarifies the purpose and scope of our morphological categorization.

      Strengths:

      The study makes a convincing case that ab1C neurons exhibit a unique, flattened dendritic morphology unlike the cylindrical dendrites found in ab1D neurons. This observation extends previous qualitative TEM findings by not only confirming the presence of flattened lamellae in CO₂ neurons but also quantifying key morphometrics such as dendritic length, surface area, and volume, and calculating surface area-to-volume ratios. The enhanced ratios observed in the flattened segments are speculated to be linked to potential advantages in receptor distribution (e.g., Gr21a/Gr63a) and efficient signal propagation.

      We thank the reviewer for appreciating the significance our current study.

      Weaknesses:

      While the manuscript offers valuable ultrastructural insights and reveals previously unappreciated heterogeneity among CO₂-sensing neurons, several issues warrant further investigation in addition to the points made above.

      (1) Although this quantitative approach is robust compared to earlier descriptive reports, its impact is somewhat limited by the absence of direct electrophysiological data to confirm that ultrastructural differences translate into altered neuronal function. A direct comparison or discussion of how the present findings align with the functional data obtained from electrophysiology would strengthen the overall argument.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. We would like to clarify, however, that our study does not claim that the observed morphological heterogeneity necessarily leads to functional diversity. Rather, we consider this as a possible implication and discuss it as a potential question for future research. This idea is raised only in the Discussion section, and we are carefully not to present functional diversity as a conclusion of our study. Nonetheless, we have reviewed the relevant paragraph to ensure the language remains cautious and does not overstate our interpretation.

      We also acknowledge the significance of directly linking ultrastructural features to neuronal function through electrophysiological recordings. However, at present, it is technically challenging to correlate the nanoscale morphology of individual ORNs with their functional activity, as this would require volume EM imaging of the very same neurons that were recorded via electrophysiology. Currently, there is no dye-labeling method compatible with single-sensillum recording and SBEM sample preparation that allows for unambiguous identification and segmentation of recorded ORNs at the necessary ultrastructural resolution.

      To acknowledge this important limitation, we have added a paragraph in the Discussion section, as suggested, to clarify the current technical barriers and to highlight this as a promising direction for future methodological advances.

      (2) Clarifying the criteria for dendritic subtype classification with quantitative parameters would enhance reproducibility and interpretability. Moreover, incorporating electrophysiological recordings from ab1C neurons would provide compelling evidence linking structure and function, and mapping key receptor proteins through immunolabeling could directly correlate receptor distribution with the observed morphological diversity.

      Please see our response to the comment regarding the technical limitations of directly correlating ultrastructure with electrophysiological data.

      In addition, we would like to address the suggestion of using immunolabeling to map receptor distribution in relation to the 3D EM models. Currently, antibodies against Gr21a or Gr63a (the receptors expressed in ab1C neurons) are not available. Even if such antibodies were available, immunogold labeling for electron microscopy requires harsh detergent treatment to increase antibody permeability, damaging morphological integrity. These treatments would compromise the very morphological detail that our study aims to capture and quantify.

      (3) Even though Cryofixation is claimed to be superior to chemical fixation for generating fewer artifacts, authors need to confirm independently the variation observed in the CO2 neuron morphologies across populations. All types of fixation in TEMs cause some artifacts, as does serial sectioning. Without understanding the error rates or without independent validation with another method, it is hard to have confidence in the conclusions drawn by the authors of the paper.

      We thank the reviewer for raising concerns regarding potential artifacts in morphological analyses. However, we would like to clarify that cryofixation is widely regarded as a gold standard for ultrastructural preservation and minimizing fixation-induced artifacts, as supported by extensive literature. This is why we adopted high-pressure freezing and freeze substitution in our study.

      We have also published a separate methods paper (Tsang et al., eLife, 2018) directly comparing our cryofixation-based protocol with conventional chemical fixation, demonstrating substantial improvements in morphological preservation. This provides strong empirical support for the reliability of our approach.

      Regarding the suggestion to validate observed morphological variation across populations: we note that determining the presence of artifacts requires a known ground truth, which is inherently unavailable as we could not measure the morphometrics of fly olfactory receptor neurons in their native state. In the absence of such a benchmark, we have instead prioritized using the best-available preparation methods and high-resolution imaging to ensure structural integrity.

      Addressing these concerns and integrating additional experiments would significantly bolster the manuscript's completeness and advancement.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s feedback. As discussed in our responses to the specific comments above, certain suggested experiments are currently limited by technical constraints, particularly in the context of high-resolution volume EM for insect tissues enclosed in cuticles.

      Nevertheless, we have carefully addressed the reviewer’s concerns to the fullest extent possible within the scope of this study. We have revised the manuscript to clarify methodological limitations, added new explanatory content where appropriate, and ensured that our interpretations remain well grounded in the data. We hope these revisions strengthen the clarity and completeness of the manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      In the current manuscript entitled "Population-level morphological analysis of paired CO2- and odor-sensing olfactory neurons in D. melanogaster via volume electron microscopy", Choy, Charara et al. use volume electron microscopy and sensillum. They aim to investigate the degree of dendritic heterogeneity within a functional class of neurons using ab1Cand ab1D, which they can identify due to the unique feature of ab1 sensilla to house four neurons and the stereotypic location on the third antennal segment. This is a great use of volumetric electron imaging and neuron reconstruction to sample a population of neurons of the same type. Their data convincingly shows that there is dendritic heterogeneity in both investigated populations, and their sample size is sufficient to strongly support this observation. This data proposes that the phenomenon of dendritic heterogeneity is common in the Drosophila olfactory system and will stimulate future investigations into the developmental origin, functional implications, and potential adaptive advantage of this feature.

      Moreover, the authors discovered that there is a difference between CO2- and odour-sensing neurons of which the first show a characteristic flattened and sheet-like structure not observed in other sensory neurons sampled in this and previous studies. They hypothesize that this unique dendritic organization, which increases the surface area to volume ratio, might allow more efficient CO2 sensing by housing higher numbers of CO2 receptors. This is supported by previous attempts to express CO2 sensors in olfactory sensory neurons, which lack this dendritic morphology, resulting in lower CO2 sensitivity compared to endogenous neurons.

      Overall, this detailed morphological description of olfactory sensory neurons' dendrites convincingly shows heterogeneity in two neuron classes with potential functional impacts for odour sensing.

      Strength:

      The volumetric EM imaging and reconstruction approach offers unprecedented details in single cell morphology and compares dendrite heterogeneity across a great fraction of ab1 sensilla. The authors identify specific shapes for ab1C sensilla potentially linked to their unique function in CO2 sensing.

      We thank the reviewer for the insightful comments and appreciation for our study.

      Weaknesses:

      While the morphological description is highly detailed, no attempts are made to link this to odour sensitivity or other properties of the neurons. It would have been exciting to see how altered morphology impacts physiology in these olfactory sensory cells.

      We agree that linking morphological variation to physiological properties, such as odor sensitivity, would be a highly valuable direction for future research. However, the aim of the current study is to provide an in-depth nanoscale characterization based on a substantial proportion of ab1 sensilla, highlighting morphological heterogeneity among homotypic ORNs.

      At present, it is technically challenging to correlate the nanoscale morphology of individual ORNs with their physiological responses, as this would require volume EM imaging of the exact neurons recorded via single-sensillum electrophysiology. Currently, no dye-labeling method exists that is compatible with both single-sensillum recording and the stringent requirements of SBEM sample preparation to allow for unambiguous identification and segmentation of recorded ORNs.

      To acknowledge this important limitation, we have added a paragraph in the Discussion section clarifying the current technical barriers and highlighting this as a promising area for future methodological development. Please also see our responses to the reviewer’s 4th comment below, where we present preliminary experiments examining whether odor sensitivity varies among homotypic ORNs.

      (Please see the following pages for additional responses to the reviewers’ specific comments. These responses are not intended for publication.)

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      As this is mainly a descriptive paper I have no suggestions for additional experiments. Minor Text Suggestions:

      (1) The authors might want to include a better description/definition of the fly antennae, olfactory sensilla and their basic structure/makeup, position of the sensory neurons and dendrites within, etc, in the introduction perhaps in cartoon form to help readers that are not familiar (i.e. non-Drosophila readers) with the terminology and basic organization can follow the paper more easily from the start.

      We thank the reviewer for the helpful suggestion to broaden the appeal of our study to a wider readership. In response, we added a new introductory paragraph at the beginning of the Results section, along with illustrations in a new supplementary figure (Figure 1—figure supplement 1). The new paragraph reads as follows.

      “The primary olfactory organ in Drosophila is the antenna, which contains hundreds olfactory sensilla on the surface of its third segment (Figure 1—figure supplement 1A) . Each sensillum typically encapsulates the outer dendrites of two to four ORNs. The outer dendrites are the sites where odorant receptors are expressed, enabling the detection of volatile chemicals. A small portion of the outer dendrites lies beneath the base of the sensillum cuticle. At the ciliary constriction, the outer dendrites connect to the inner dendritic segment, which then links to the soma of each ORN (Figure 1—figure supplement 1B).”

      (2) In Figure 4D, the letter annotations above the graphs are not clearly defined anywhere that I could easily find. Please clarify with different symbols and/or in the figure legend so readers can easily comprehend the stats that are presented.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this point. As suggested, in the revised Figure 4D legend, following the original sentence “Statistical significance is determined by Kruskal-Wallis one-way ANOVA on ranks and denoted by different letters”, we added “For example, labels “a” and “b” indicate a significant difference between groups (P < 0.05), whereas labels with identical or shared letters (e.g., “a” and “a”, “a,b” and “a”, or “a,b” and “b”) indicate no significant difference.”

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      There are several aspects that I would like the authors to consider to improve the current manuscript:

      (1) Line 331: "Our analysis highlights how structural scaling in ab1D neurons achieves enhanced sensory capacity while maintaining the biophysical properties of dendrites". This is a strong statement, and not shown by the authors. They speculate about this in the discussion, but I would like them to soften the language here.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this point. As suggested, we have softened the language in the sentence in question. The revised version is as follows.

      “Our analysis suggests that structural scaling in ab1D neurons may enhance sensory capacity while preserving the biophysical properties of dendrites.”

      (2) The Supplementary material is not well presented and is not cited in the manuscript. It is not clear what the individual data files show, where they refer to, etc. Please provide clear labels of all data, cite them at the appropriate location in the manuscript, and make them more accessible to the reader. Also, there are two Videos mentioned in the manuscript that are not included in the submission.

      We thank the reviewer for bringing this to our attention and apologize for the oversight. We appreciate the reviewer’s careful attention to the supplementary materials. We have addressed these issues accordingly: 1) all source data have been consolidated in to a single, clearly labeled Excel file to improve accessibility for readers; this file is now cited at the appropriate locations in the manuscript. 2) The supplementary videos mentioned in the manuscript have also been included in the re-submission.

      (3) In Figure 1B, it is hard to recapitulate the increase in dendritic density in the presented pictures. Could the authors please highlight dendrites in the raw imaging files (e.g. by colour coding as done later in the manuscript). Also, it might be helpful to indicate the measured parameters visually in this Figure (e.g. volume, length, etc.).

      We thank the reviewer for the helpful suggestion. As suggested, we have pseudocolored the dendrites in Figure 1B to enhance visual clarity.

      As noted, the original legend stated that “the sensilla were arranged from left to right in order of increasing dendritic branch counts”. To improve clarity, we have now added the number of dendritic branches above each sensillum to make this information more explicit.

      We hope these changes make the figure more accessible and informative for readers.

      (4) Given the strength of the authors in in vivo physiology and single sensilla recordings, I would be very curious about how the described morphological heterogeneity is reflected in the response properties of ab1Cs and ab1Ds. Can the authors provide data (already existing from their lab) of these two neurons on response heterogeneity? I acknowledge that spike sorting can be very challenging in ab1s, but maybe it is possible to show the range of response sensitivities upon CO2 stimulation in ab1Cs? The authors speculate in the discussion and presented data will only be correlative - however I think it would strengthen the manuscript to have some link to physiology included.

      We thank the reviewer for this insightful comment. We share the same curiosity about response variability among homotypic ORNs, including ab1C and ab1D. Ideally, this question could be addressed by recording from a large proportion of neurons of a given ORN type to assess the response variability within a single antenna. However, due to technical limitations, we are only able to reliably record from 3–4 ab1 sensilla per antennal preparation, representing approximately 8% of the total ab1 population.

      Moreover, our recordings are typically limited to ab1 sensilla located on the posterior-medial side of the antenna, as this region provides the best accessibility for our recording electrode. This spatial constraint may limit our ability to sample the full morphological diversity of ab1C and ab1D neurons.

      Given these limitations, it is technically challenging to rigorously assess physiological variability in ab1C and ab1D responses across the entire ab1 population. Nonetheless, we attempted to address this question using a different sensillum type where a larger proportion of the population is accessible to single-sensillum recording per antennal preparation. Specifically, we focused on ab2 sensilla in the following analysis because we can reliably record from 6 sensilla per antenna, representing approximately 25% of the total ab2 population.

      In the preliminary data presented below, we recorded from 6 ab2A ORNs per antenna across a total of 6 flies. Spike analysis revealed that odor-evoked responses were consistent across individual ab2A neurons (Author response image 1A). When analyzing the dose-response curve for each ORN, we found no statistically significant differences in odor sensitivity, either among ORNs within the same antenna or across different flies (Author response image 1B; two-way ANOVA: P > 0.99 within antennae, P > 0.99 across flies). This is further supported by the closely clustered EC50 values (Author response image 1C). This result suggests that odor sensitivity is largely uniform among homotypic ab2A ORNs.

      Author response image 1.

      Homotypic ab2A ORNs display similar odorant sensitivity. (A) Single-sensillum recording. Raster plots of ab2A/Or59b ORN spike responses. Six ab2A ORNs from the same antenna were recorded per fly. Odor stimulus: methyl acetate (10-6). (B) Dose-response relationships of peak spike responses, normalized to the maximum response of the ORN to facilitate comparison of odor sensitivity. Each curve represents responses from a single ab2A ORN fitted with the Hill equation (n=36 ab2 sensilla from 6 flies). Responses recorded from the same antenna are indicated by the same color. Statistical comparisons between different ab2A ORNs from the same antenna (P > 0.99) or across flies (P > 0.99) were performed by two-way ANOVA. (C) Quantification of individual pEC50 values from (B), defined as -logEC50.

      However, we are hesitant to include this result in the main manuscript for several reasons. First, it does not directly relate to the morphometric analysis of ab1C and ab1D neurons, which is the primary focus of our study. Second, while we were able to record from approximately 25% of the ab2 population, this level of coverage is still limited and potentially subject to sampling bias due to the spatial constraints of the antennal region accessible to the recording electrode.

      At best, our data suggest limited variability in odor sensitivity among the recorded ab2A ORNs. However, we are cautious about generalizing this finding to the entire ab2 population. In light of these considerations, we hope the reviewer can appreciate the technical challenges inherent in addressing what may appear to be a straightforward question.

      For these reasons, we have chosen to include this preliminary result in the response only, rather than in the main manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer 1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors present a mean-field model that describes the interplay between (protein) aggregation and phase separation. Different classes of interaction complexity and aggregate dimensionality are considered, both in calculations concerning (equilibrium) phase behavior and kinetics of assembly formation.

      Strengths:

      The present work is, although purely theoretical, of high interest to understanding biological processes that occur as a result of a coupling between protein aggregation and phase separation. Of course, such processes are abundant, in the living cell as well as in in-vitro experiments. I appreciate the consideration of aggregates with various dimensionality, as well as the categorization into different ”interaction classes”, together with the mentioning of experimental observations from biology. The model is convincing and underlines the complexity associated with the distribution of proteins across phases and aggregates in the living cell.

      Weaknesses:

      There are a few minor weaknesses.

      Reviewer 2 (Public Review):

      This work deals with a very difficult physical problem: relating the assembly of building blocks on a molecular scale to the appearance of large, macroscopic assemblies. This problem is particularly difficult to treat, because of the large number of units involved, and of the complex way in which these units-monomers-interact with each other and with the solvent. In order to make the problem treatable, the authors recur to a number of approximations: Among these, there is the assumption that the system is spatially homogeneous, i.e., its features are the same in all regions of space. In particular, the homogeneity assumption may not hold in biologically relevant systems such as cells, where the behavior close to the cell membrane may strongly differ from the one in the bulk. As a result, this hypothesis calls for a cautious consideration and interpretation of the results of this work. Another notable simplification introduced by the authors is the assumption that the system can only follow two possible behaviors: In the first, each monomer interacts equally with the solvent; no matter the size of the cluster of which it is part. In the second case, monomers in the bulk of a cluster and monomers at the assembly boundary interact with the solvent in a different way. These two cases are considered not only because they simplify the problem, but also because they are inspired by biologically relevant proteins.

      With these simplifications, the authors trace the phase diagram of the system, characterizing its phases for different fractions of the volume occupied by the monomers and solvent, and for different values of the temperature. The results qualitatively reproduce some features observed in recent experiments, such as an anomalous distribution of cluster sizes below the system saturation threshold, and the gelation of condensed phases above such threshold.

      Reviewer 3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors combine classical theories of phase separation and self-assembly to establish a framework for explaining the coupling between the two phenomena in the context of protein assemblies and condensates. By starting from a mean-field free energy for monomers and assemblies immersed in solvent and imposing conditions of equilibrium, the authors derive phase diagrams indicating how assemblies partition into different condensed phases as temperature and the total volume fraction of proteins are varied. They find that phase separation can promote assembly within the protein-rich phase, providing a potential mechanism for spatial control of assembly. They extend their theory to account for the possibility of gelation. They also create a theory for the kinetics of self-assembly within phase separated systems, predicting how assembly size distributions change with time within the different phases as well as how the volumes of the different phases change with time.

      Strengths:

      The theoretical framework that the authors present is an interesting marriage of classic theories of phase separation and self-assembly. Its simplicity should make it a powerful general tool for understanding the thermodynamics of assembly coupled to phase separation, and it should provide a useful framework for analyzing experiments on assembly within biomolecular condensates.

      The key advance over previous work is that the authors now account for how self-assembly can change the boundaries of the phase diagram.

      A second interesting point is the explicit theoretical consideration for the possibility that gelation (i.e. self-assembly into a macroscopic aggregate) could account for widely observed solidification of condensates. While this concept has been broadly discussed, to date I have yet to see a rigorous theoretical analysis of the possibility.

      The kinetic theory in sections 5 and 6 is also interesting as it extends on previous work by considering the kinetics of phase separation as well as those of self-assembly.

      Weaknesses:

      A key point the authors make about their theory is that it allows, as opposed to previous research, to study non-dilute limits. It is true that they consider gelation when the 3D assemblies become macroscopic. However, dilute solution theory assumptions seem to be embedded in many aspects of their theory, and it is not always clear where else the non-dilute limits are considered. Is it in the inter-species interaction χij? Why then do they never explore cases for which χij is nonzero in their analysis?

      We explicitly consider that monomers and aggregates are non-dilute with respect to solvent. This is evident in accounting for the mixing entropy of all components, including the solvent. Moreover, we account for interactions among the monomers and the different aggregates with the solvent. We consider the case where each monomeric unit, independent in aggregate it is part of, interacts the same way with the solvent. Please note that this case corresponds to a non-dilute scenario where interactions indeed drive phase separation.

      The connection between this theory and biological systems is described in the introduction but lost along the main text. It would be very helpful to point out, for instance, that the presence of phase separation might induce aggregation of proteins. This point is described formally at the end of Section 3, but a more qualitative connection to biological systems would be very useful here.

      We thank the referee for the useful comment, we now mention this in the introduction (line 80) and point out the biological relevance of assembly formation and localization via the presence of phase separation (lines 268 and 283).

      Building on the previous point, it would be helpful to give an intuitive sense of where the equations derived in the Appendices and presented in the main text come from and to spell out clear physical interpretations of the results. For example, it would be helpful to point out that Eq. 4 is a form of the law of mass action, familiar from introductory chemistry. It would be useful to better explain how the current work extends on existing previous work from these authors as well as others. Along these lines, closely related work by W. Jacobs and B. Rogers [O. Hedge et al. 2023, https://arxiv.org/abs/2301.06134; T. Li et al. 2023, https://arxiv.org/abs/2306.13198] should be cited in the introduction. The results discussed in the first paragraph of Section 3 on assembly size distributions in a homogeneous system are well-known from classic theories of self-assembly. This should be acknowledged and appropriate references should be added; see for instance, Rev. Mod. Phys. 93, 025008 and Statistical Thermodynamics Of Surfaces, Interfaces, And Membranes by Sam Safran. Equation 14 for the kinetic of volume fractions is given with reference to Bauermann et al. 2022, but it should be accompanied by a better intuitive interpretation of its terms in the main text. In particular, how should one understand the third term in this equation? Why does the change in volume impact the change of volume fraction in this way?

      We thank the referee for the suggestions. We have included the missing references, with a particular emphasis on DNA nanostars that inhibit phase separation in DNA liquids in the definition of class II. We added intuitive explanations of the main equations, such as Eqs. (4),(8),(14), (17), and (18). Notice that, according to Mysels, Karol J., J. Chem. Educ., 33, 178 (1956) (https://pubs-acs-org.sire.ub.edu/doi/epdf/10.1021/ed033p178) we refer to (18) as the law of mass action.

      The discussion in the last paragraph of Section 6 should be clarified. How can the total amount of protein in both phases decrease? This would necessarily violate either mass or volume conservation. Also, the discussion of why the volume is non-monotonic in time is not clear.

      A decrease in the total amount of protein in both phases does not violate mass conservation, if the volume of the phases varies accordingly. In particular, the volume of the denser phase should grow. This given, in the case presented the total protein amount in the dense phase decreases, while in the dilute phase increases. For this reason, we revised the paragraph and now explain the results in more detail (see lines starting from 407). The nonmonotonic volume change is indeed a puzzling finding that, as we now state in the manuscript, requires further investigation. Given the lack of analytical approaches available to tackle the complex kinetics in the presence of coexisting phases, we believe that this analysis goes beyond the scope of the present paper.

      Recommendations for the authors

      Reviewer 1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Line 96: I feel a mentioning/definition/explanation and perhaps some discussion on the parameter M (limiting aggregate size) would have been in place in the introduction of Equation (1). Furthermore, in the usual interpretation, Flory interaction parameters (symbolized χ) are dimensionless, as, classically, they represent an exchange energy (normalized by kT), defined on a monomeric basis. Here they seem to carry the dimension of energy.

      We thank the reviewer for the observation. We have included a brief comment on M and mentioned that we use χ parameters that carry the dimension of energy such that, varying kBT, we scale at the same time the term containing interaction propensities (χ) and the one containing internal energies (_e_int). See the comment on line 127

      Line 150: The choice of ρi \= i physically implies that a single protein is assumed to have the same as a solvent molecule. This may be a bit of a stretch. This assumption leads to an overestimation of the translational entropy of the aggregates (first term in Equation (1)). Acknowledging that ρ_1 >> ρs_ would give a pronounced desymmetrization of the phase diagram (I suspect).

      Indeed, in the case of monomers only, the assumption leads to a symmetric phase diagram which may be unrealistic. Once assemblies form, however, the phase diagram becomes asymmetric and for this reason we decided to assume ρi \= i, simplifying the theoretical analysis. We have added a clarifying sentence in the manuscript, see line 163

      Furthermore, the pictures in Figure 1a-c suggest the presence of a disordered residue, the degree of swelling of which might affect binding strength (see for instance: https://doi.org/10.3389/fnmol.2022.962526).

      We added a comment on the possible coupling between internal free energies and interaction propensities, such as the swelling mechanism that affects binding sites, and included the reference above (line 215).

      Line 154-156: It’s unclear what is meant with ”an internal bond that keeps each assembly together”. How should this be interpreted on an intuitive physical level?

      We apologise for being unclear. We meant the internal bonds that lead to the formation of assemblies. We have now rephrased this sentence in the main text (lines starting from 169).

      Line 254: The fact that ϕsg is defined below does not mean it does not fall out of the air here. The same holds for the consideration of the limit M →∞. Ideally, the main text should stand on its own, in particular with respect to physical intuitiveness, as well as the necessity and interest of discussion topics. Technical details, derivations and additional information can be in an appendix.

      We agree with the referee and added some physical insights about the limit. We now also state clearly in the main text (line 298) that _ϕ_sg is affected by temperature and the free energy of internal bonds.

      Line 257: ”Since we do not explicitly include the solvent in assembly formation we will consider the gel as a phase without solvent and thus ϕtot \= 1”. I’m not sure if I can agree with this. I would say, a gel, certainly in biological context, almost per definition contains a large fraction of solvent, i.e. here water. The situation ”ϕtot \= 1” would rather be a solid precipitate. Is gelation properly captured by this model?

      We thank the referee for this very relevant observation. We now state in the main text that the model predicts a macroscopic assembly which we call ’the gel phase’, in agreement with previous literature. Then, to clarify, we added the sentence ”Please note that, since we do not explicitly include the solvent in assembly formation (see reaction scheme in Fig.1a), in our model the gel corresponds to a phase without solvent, _ϕ_tot \= 1. To account for biological gels that can be rich in water, our theory can be straightforwardly extended by incorporating the solvent into the reaction scheme.”, see main text line 300.

      Line 268: Shouldn’t ”solvent” be ”solution”? If fsol is given by Equation (1), surely not only the solvent is considered.

      Indeed, this is a typo, and we now use the term ’solution’ instead of ’solvent.’

      Line 273: At this stage, the only information provided in the main text is that ω∞ is ”a constant that does not affect chemical nor phase equilibrium, except in the limit M →∞” (see lines 153-154). This is a little bit too abstract for me. Again, the main text should stand on its own, meaning the reader should not have to rely on an appendix to at least have an intuitive physical understanding of any modeling or input parameter discussed in the main text.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We now comment on the physical interpretation of ω∞ in the main text, see lines from 320 on.

      Figure 4. appears in Equation (39) but it is not defined.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We have reshaped appendix 6A, making use of chemical activities and clarified the origin of the rate .

      Line 317. I don’t fully understand the intention of the remark on the model being adaptable for ”primary and secondary nucleation”. How/in what way is this different from association and dissociation? For instance, classical nucleation theory is based on association and dissociation of monomeric units to and from clusters.

      We agree that the kinetic rate coefficients kij (appearing in the association and dissociation rates ∆rij, Eq. 17) in our manuscript already depend on assembly length, see Appendix 6 B, where we now clarified their definition. Please note that, however, that secondary nucleation is a special kind of association, for which the kinetic rate coefficients corresponding to associations of small assemblies, i.e. kij with_i,j_ ≪ M, explicitly depend on the presence of large assemblies with sizes l ≫ 1. In our manuscript, we have not accounted for such a dependence. We now make this aspect clear in the manuscript, see Appendix 6 B.

      Line 321. Why is ∆rij called the ”monomer exchange rate”? In line 318 the same parameter is defined as the ”reaction rate for the formation of a (i+j)-mer”. Why should these be the same?

      We thank the reviewer for spotting this typo.

      Line 323. Why do these calculations use M = 15?

      The exploration of a 15-dimensional phase space is already numerically challenging. We are currently working on a generalization of the numerical scheme to work with larger values of M but, to discuss the fundamental physical principles, we kept M \= 15.

      Reviewer 2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The manuscript presents several issues, on both the scientific and presentational level, which need to be carefully addressed. Please find below a list of the points that need to be addressed by the authors, divided into major and minor points. Major issues:

      • A general, major concern about the results in the paper is the homogeneity assumption. I do understand that repeating the whole analysis presented in the manuscript by allowing for spatial inhomogeneities partially goes beyond the scope of this paper. However, the authors should at least discuss how such inhomogeneities may alter the results in a qualitative way, and treat explicitly the presence of inhomogeneity in one prototypical case treated in the manuscript. Namely, what happens if the volume fractions and relative molecular volumes in the free energy (1) depend on space, e.g., ϕiϕi(x)?

      We would like to stress that, in the present paper, we do account for spatial inhomogeneities. Indeed, in the case of phase separation, we consider systems which are divided into two phases, characterized by different values of the assemblies’ volume fractions ϕi. We do, however, consider the system to be homogeneous inside the phases, implying a jump in the value of the volume fraction at the interface between the two phases. In this sense, the analysis we carry out is valid in the thermodynamic limit, where gradients of the volume fractions ϕi(x) within the phases, can be neglected. On the other hand, considering the full spatial problem, i.e. solving the equations for M \= 15 spatially varying fields, would be numerically extremely challenging.

      • The authors’ results relate molecular assembly- a phenomenon at the molecular scale-to phase separation-a mesoscopic or macroscopic phenomenon. The authors should stress the conceptual importance of this connection between scales, and present their results from the perspective of a multi-scale model.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We now emphasize the multi-scale feature of our model in the introduction (line 80).

      • Starting from Section 1, the reader is not well guided through the sections that follow. The authors should provide an outline of the line of though that they are going to follow in the following sections, and logically connect each section to the next one with a short paragraph at the end of each section. This paragraph should resume what has been addressed in the current section, and the connection with the topic that will be addressed in the next one.

      We agree with the reviewer and have added a transitioning sentence at the end of each paragraph.

      • ’We focus on linear assemblies (d = 1)’: Given the striking differences of the results between d = 1 and d > 1 shown above, the authors should discuss what happens for d > 1 as well.

      • ’In figure Fig. 5a, we show the initial and final equilibrium binodals (black and coloured curve, respectively), for the case of linear assemblies (d = 1) belonging to class 1’: Again, show what happens for d > 1.

      We agree with the reviewer, the kinetics in d > 1 would be definitely interesting. However, in this case, one assembly can become macroscopic (i.e. M must be set to ∞). This requires some substantial modification in the kinetic scheme, like introducing an absorbing boundary condition for monomers ’sucked in’ the gel. We prefer to leave this for future work, and now state it explicitly in the manuscript (line 383).

      • ’This difference arises because, within class 2, monomers in the bulk of an assembly have reduced interaction propensity with respect to the boundary ones. As a consequence, the formation of large clusters shifts the onset of phase separation to higher ϕtot values.’: To prove this argument, the authors should show Fig. 2g and h for d > 1. In fact, by varying d, the effect of the boundary vs. bulk also varies.

      We prefer to discuss the thermodynamics of d > 1 in section 4 on gelation. There we present only a single phase diagram so as not to blow up the discussion on equilibrium too much.

      • ’referring for simplicity to systems belonging to Class 1’: The authors should do the same analysis for Class 2.

      We agree with the reviewer. However, again not to blow up the discussion on equilibrium, we leave it for future work.

      • ’other, implying that the corresponding Flory-Huggins parameter χij vanishes’: Why?

      The explanation based on a lattice model is reported in Appendix 2, and is now more clearly referenced (line 185).

      Minor issues:

      • Eq. (10): Here the authors should explain in the main text, possibly in a simple and intuitive way, why the number of monomers i and the space dimension d enter the righthand side of this equation in this particular way.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We added the physical origin of the scaling with dimension in Eq. (10) and in Eq. (8), as pointed out by reviewer 3.

      • ’The second and fifth terms of fsol characterize the internal free energies’: What do you mean by ’characterize the internal free energies’? Please clarify.

      As we now state more clearly (lines 114-120), these two contributions include the internal free energies ω_s and _ωi, stemming from the free energy of internal bonds that lead to assembly formation.

      • ’depend on the scaling form of the’: Scaling with respect to what ? Please clarify.

      We have now clarified that the scaling is with respect to the assembly size i.

      • Figure 2 is way too dense: it should be split into two figures, and the legend of each of the two figures should be expanded to properly guide the reader to understand the figures.

      We understand the reviewer’s point of view. To avoid altering the present flow, we decided not to split the figure, but we have included shaded boxes to better guide the reader.

      • ’this is a consequence of the gelation transition’: Please clarify

      • ’and this limitation can be dealt with by introducing explicitly the infinite-sized gel in the free energy’: Why? Please clarify.

      We have now rephrased these sentences, hopefully in a clearer way. We now state: ’We know that this divergence is physical, and is caused by the gelation transition. This limitation can be dealt with by introducing explicitly a term in the free energy that accounts for an infinite-sized assembly (the gel)’, see lines 320-322.

      • Figure 4: Add plots of panels d, e, h and i with log scale on the y axis to make explicit an eventual exponential behavior, and revise the text accordingly

      Not to further complicate Figure 4, we preferred to display the logarithmic plots of the equilibrium distribution in the appendix, see Figure A3-1.

      • ’... an equilibrium distribution which monotonously decreases with assembly size’: It is not the distributions that decreases but the cluster volume fraction, please rephrase.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out and have now rephrased this sentence (line 394).

      Reviewer 3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I could not obtain the exact form of Eq 29 in App 3, can the authors elaborate on this calculation. App 3: What does it mean binodal agrees well with ϕsg? And doesn’t ϕsg depend on temperature through phi tilde? What temperature is this result for?

      We apologise for the unclear explanation. We now state in detail that Eq. (29) is obtained by plugging the expression of ϕi given in Eq. (24) into Eq. (1), in the main text. The dependence of ϕ<sub>1</sub> on ϕ<sub>tot</sub> is expressed in Eq. (26), and we have omitted linear terms in ϕ<sub>tot</sub>, since they do not affect phase equilibrium (see lines 802-809). Moreover, ϕsg depends indeed on k<sub>B</sub>T. We refer to the comparison between the full curve ϕsg in the k<sub>B</sub>T−ϕ<sub>tot</sub> plane, and the branch of the binodal between the triple point (indicated now with a cross) and ϕ<sub>tot</sub> \= 1. The two curves are close, as expected since both correspond to the boundary between homogeneous mixtures and the gel state, obtained with different methods.

      The references to Figures in the appendices are confusing. Please make it clear whether Figures in the main text or the appendices are being referenced. On a related note, the Appendix figures seem to be placed in appendices whose text describes something else - Appendix 2, Figure 1 should be moved to Appendix 3; Appendix 3, Figure 1 should be moved to Appendix 4; etc.

      We revised the appendix, corrected the figure positions and clarified their references.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Making state-of-the-art (super-resolution) microscopy widely available has been the subject of many publications in recent years as correctly referenced in the manuscript. By advocating the ideas of open-microscopy and trying to replace expensive, scientific-grade components such as lasers, cameras, objectives, and stages with cost-effective alternatives, interested researchers nowadays have a number of different frameworks to choose from. In the iteration of the theme presented here, the authors used the existing modular UC2 framework, which consists of 3D printable building blocks, and combined a cheapish laser, detector and x,y,(z) stage with expensive filters/dichroics and a very expensive high-end objective (>15k Euros). This particular choice raises a first technical question, to which extent a standard NA 1.3 oil immersion objective available for <1k would compare to the chosen NA 1.49 one.

      Measurement of the illumination quality (e.g. the spectral purity) of low budget lasers convinced us of the necessity to use spectral filtering. These cannot be replaced with lower budget alternatives, to sill retain the necessary sensitivity to image single molecules. As expected, the high-quality objectives are able to produce high-quality data. Lower budget alternatives (<500 €) to replace the objective have been tried out. Image quality is reduced but key features in fluorescent images can be identified (see figure S1). The usage of a low budget objective for SMLM imaging is possible, but quality benchmarks such as identifying railroad tracks along microtubule profiles is not possible. Their usage is not optimal for applications aiming to visualize single molecules and might find better application in teaching projects.

      The choice of using the UC2 framework has the advantage, that the individual building blocks can be 3D printed, although it should be mentioned that the authors used injection-molded blocks that will have a limited availability if not offered commercially by a third party. The strength of the manuscript is the tight integration of the hardware and the software (namely the implementations of imSwitch as a GUI to control data acquisition, OS SMLM algorithms for fast sub-pixel localisation and access to Napari).

      The injection-molded cubes can be acquired through the OpenUC2 platform. Alternatively, the 3D printable version of the cubes is freely available and just requires the user to have a 3D printer. https://github.com/openUC2/UC2-GIT/tree/master/CAD/CUBE_EmptyTemplate

      The presented experimental data is convincing, demonstrating (1) extended live cell imaging both using bright-field and fluorescence in the incubator, (2) single-particle tracking of quantum dots, and (3) and STORM measurements in cells stained against tubulin. In the following I will raise two aspects that currently limit the clarity and the potential impact of the manuscript.

      First, the manuscript would benefit from further refinement. Elements in Figure 1d/e are not described properly. Figure 2c is not described in the caption. GPI-GFP is not introduced. MMS (moment scaling spectrum) could benefit from a one sentence description of what it actually is. In Figure 6, the size of the STORM and wide-field field of views are vastly different, the distances between the peaks on the tubuli are given in micrometers rather than nanometers. (more in the section on recommendations for the author)

      Second, and this is the main criticism at this point, is that although all the information and data is openly available, it seems very difficult to actually build the setup due to a lack of proper documentation (as of early July 2023).

      1) The bill of materials (https://github.com/openUC2/UC2-STORM-and-Fluorescence#bill-of-material) should provide a link to the commercially available items. Some items are named in German. Maybe split the BoM in commercially available and 3D printable parts (I first missed the option to scroll horizontally).

      2) The links to the XY and Z stage refer to the general overview site of the UC2 project (https://github.com/openUC2/) requiring a deep dive to find the actual information.

      3) Detailed building instructions are unfortunately missing. How to assemble the cubes (pCad files showing exploded views, for example)? Trouble shooting?

      4) Some of the hardware details (e.g. which laser was being used, lenses, etc) should be mentioned in the manuscript (or SI)

      I fully understand that providing such level of detail is very time consuming, but I hope that the authors will be able to address these shortcomings.

      1) The bill of materials has been and will also in future still be improved. The items have been sorted into UC2 printed parts and externally acquired parts. The combination of part name as well as provider enables users to find and acquire the same parts. Additionally, depending on the country where the user is located, different providers of a given part might be advantageous as delivery means and costs might vary.

      2) The Z-stage now has a specific repository with different solutions, offering different solutions with different levels of movement precision. According to the user and their budget, different solutions can be optimal for the endeavor.

      https://github.com/openUC2/UC2-Zstage

      The XY stage now also has a detailed repository, as the motorizing of the stage requires a fair amount of tinkering. The video tutorials and the detailed instructions on stage motorizing should help any user to reproduce the stage shown within this manuscript. https://github.com/openUC2/UC2-Motorized-XY-Table

      3) The updated repository has a short video showing the general assembly of the cubes and the layers. Additionally, figure S2 shows all the pieces that are included in every layer (as a photograph as well as CAD). An exploded view of the complete setup would certainly be a helpful visualization of the complete setup. We however hope that the presented assembly tutorials and documents are sufficient to successfully reproduce the U.C.STORM setup.

      First, we want to thank the reviewers for their effort to help us improving our work. We apologize for any trivial mistakes we had overlooked. Please find below our answers to the very constructive and helpful comments of the editors.  

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for The Authors):

      To complement the current data set:

      Figure 2(a & b): Panels i & ii, were chosen on the area where the distribution of the laser appears to be flatter. Can the authors select microtubules from a different section? Otherwise, it is reasonable to also crop the field-of-view along the flatter area (as done in Fig 6).

      Figure 2 was changed to according to the reviewer’s suggestions. The profiles of microtubules from a different section have similar profiles, but the region with best illumination thus best SNR of the profile have been used for the figure.

      Figure 2(c): The current plot shows the gaussian distribution which does not appear to be centered. Instead of a horizontal line, can the authors provide a diagonal profile across the field of view and update the panel below?

      A diagonal cross-section of the illuminated FOV is provided in figure 2 to replace the previous horizontal profile. The pattern seems not to be perfectly radially symmetric, and more light seems to be blocked at the bottom of the illumination pattern compared to the top. A possible improvement can be provided by a fiber-coupled laser, that could provide a more homogeneous illumination while being easier to handle in the assembly process.

      Author response image 1.

      Diagonal cross-section of the illuminated FOV. Pixel-size (104nm) is the same as in figure 2. Intensity has been normalized according to the maximal value.

      Figure 2(d): The system presents a XY drift of ~500nm over the course of a couple of hours. However, is not clear how the focus is being maintained. Can the authors clarify this point and add the axial drift to the plot?

      The axial position of the sample could be maintained over a prolonged period of time without correcting for drift. Measurements where an axial shift was induced by tension pulses in the electronics have been discarded, but the stability of the stage seems to be sufficient to allow for imaging without lateral and axial drift correction. The XY drift measurement displayed in Figure 2(d) can be extended by measuring the σ of the PSF over time. The increase of σ would suggest an axial displacement in relation to the focus plane. In these measurements, a slight axial drift can be seen, the fluorescent beads however can still be localized over the whole course of the measurement.

      A separate experiment was performed, using the same objective on the UC2 setup and on a high-quality setup equipped with a piezo actuator able to move in 10 nm steps. The precise Z steps of the piezo allows to reproducibly swipe through the PSF shape and to give an estimate of the axial displacement of the sample, according to the changes in PSF FWHM (Full Width at Half Maximum). When superimposing the graph with the UC2 measurement of fluorescent beads with the smallest possible Z step, an estimate about the relative axial position of the sample can be provided. The accuracy of the stage however remains limited.

      Author response image 2.

      Drift Figure: a. Drift of fluorescent TS beads on the UC2 setup positioned upon an optical table over a duration of two hours. Beads are localized and resulting displacement in i. and ii. are plotted in the graphs below. The procedure is repeated in b. with the microscope placed on a laboratory bench instead. c. (for the optical table i.) and d. (for the laboratory bench i.) show the variation in the sigma value of the localized beads over the measurement duration. As the sigma values changes when the beads are out of focus, the stability of the setup can be confirmed, as it remains practically unchanged over the measurement duration.

      Author response image 3.

      Z-focus Figure: Estimation of the axial position of TS beads on the UC2 setup. a. The change in PSF FWHM was quantified by acquiring a Z stack of a beads sample. The homebuilt high-quality setup (HQ) was used as a reference, by using the same objective and TS sample. The PSF FWHM on the UC2 setup was measured using the lowest possible axial stage displacement. A Z-position can thus be estimated for single molecules, as displayed in b.

      Addressing the seemingly correlated behavior of the X and Y drift:

      Further measurement show less correlation between drift in X and in Y. Simultaneous motion in X and Y seems to indicate that the stage or the sample is tilted. The collective movement in X and Y seems accentuated by bigger jumps, probably originating from vibrations (as more predominantly shown in the measurements on the laboratory bench compared to the optical table). Tension fluctuations inducing motion of the stage are possible but are highly unlikely to have induced the drift in the displayed measurements.

      Figure 3: Can the authors comment on the effect or otherwise potential effect of the incubator (humidity, condensation etc) may have on the system (e.g., camera, electronics etc)?

      When moving the microscope into the incubator, the first precaution is to check if the used electronics are able to perform at 37° C. Then, placing the microscope inside the incubator can induce condensation of water droplets at the cold interfaces, potentially damaging the electronics or reducing imaging quality. This can be prevented by preheating the microscope in e.g. an incubator without humidity, for a few hours before placing it within the functional incubator. The used incubator should also be checked for air streams (to distribute the CO2), and a direct exposure of the setup to the air stream should be prevented. The usage of a layer of foam material (e.g. Polyurethane) under the microscope helps to reduce possible effects of incubator vibrations on the microscope. The hydrophilic character of PLA makes its usage within the incubator challenging due to its reduced thermal stability. The temperature also inherently reduces the mechanical stability of 3D printed parts. Using a less hydrophilic and more thermally stable plastic, such as ABS, combined with a higher percentage of infill are the empirical solution to this challenge. Further options and designs to improve the usage of the microscope within the incubator are still in developement.

      Figure 5: Can the authors perform single molecule experiments with an alternative tag such as Alexa647?

      The SPT experiments were performed with QDs to make use of their photostability and brightness. The dSTORM experiment suggests that imaging single AF647 molecules with sufficient SNR is possible. The usage of AF647 for SPT is possible but would reduce the accuracy of the localization and shorten the acquired track-lengths, due to the blinking properties of AF647 when illuminated. The tracking experiment with the QDs thus was a proof of concept that the SPT experiments are possible and allow to reproduce the diffusion coefficients published in common literature. The usage of alternative tags can be an interesting extension of the capabilities that users can perform for their applications.

      Figure 6: The authors demonstrate dSTORM of microtubules. It would enhance the paper to also demonstrate 3D imaging (e.g., via cylindrical lens).

      The usage of a cylindrical lens for 3D imaging was not performed yet. The implementation would not be difficult, given the high modularity of the setup in general. The calibration of the PSF shape with astigmatism might however be challenging as the vertical scanning of the Z-stage lacks reliability in its current build. Methods such as biplane imaging might also be difficult to implement, as the halved number of photons in each channel leads to losses in the accuracy of localization. As a future improvement of the setup, the option of providing 3D information with single molecule accuracy is definitely desirable and will be tried out. In the following figure, two concepts for introducing 3D imaging capabilities in the detection layer of the microscope are presented.

      Author response image 4.

      3D concept Figure: Two possible setup modifications to provide axial information when imaging single molecules. a. A cylindrical lens can be placed to induce an asymmetry between the PSF FWHM in x and in y. Every Z position can be identified by two distinct PSF FWHM values in X and Y. b. By splitting the beam in two and defocusing one path, every PSF will have a specific set of values for its FWHM on the two detectors.

      Imaging modalities section: Regarding the use of cling film to diffuse; can the authors comment on the continual use of this approach, including its degradation over time?

      The cling foil was only used as a diffuser for broadening the laser profile. A detailed analysis of the constitution of the foil was not done, as no visible changes could be seen on the illumination pattern and the foil itself. The piece of cling foil is attached to a rotor. Detaching of the cling foil or vibrations originating from the rotor need to be minimized. By keeping the rotation speed to a necessary minimum and attaching the cling foil correctly to the rotor, a usable solution can be created. The low price of the cling foil provides the possibility to exchange the foil on a regular basis, allowing to keep the foil under optimal conditions.

      Author response image 5.

      Profile Figure: By moving a combination of pinhole and photometer to scan through the laser profile with a translational mount, the shape of the laser beam can be estimated. The cling foil plays the same role as a diffuser in other setups.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for The Authors):

      lines

      20, add "," after parts

      110, rotating cling foil?

      112/116, "custom 3D printed" I thought they were injection molded, please finalize

      113, "puzzle pieces" rephrase and they are also barely visible

      119, not clear that the stage is a manual stage that was turned into a motorised one by adding belts

      123-126, detail for SI,

      132, replace Arduino-coded with Arduino-based

      143, add reference to Napari

      146, (black) cardboard seems to be a cheaper and quicker alternative

      153, dichroic

      151-155, reads more like a blog post than a paper (maybe add a section on trouble shooting)

      156, antibody?

      167/189, moderate, please be specific

      194, layer of foam material, specify

      221, add description/reference to GPI. What is that? why is it relevant?

      226: add one sentence description of MMS

      318, add "," after students

      332-334, as mentioned earlier, not clear, you bought a manual stage and connected belts, correct?

      376-377, might be difficult to understand for the layman

      391, what laser was used?

      Figure 1, poor contrast between components, components visible should be named as much as possible, maybe provide the base layer in a different shade. To me, the red and blue labels look like fluorophores.

      Figure 1. looks like d is the excitation layer and not e, please fix.

      Figure 2, caption a-c, figure 1-d!, btw, why is the drift so anti-correlated?

      Figure 6 (line 259) nanometer I guess, not micrometer

      We now incorporated all the above-mentioned changes in the manuscript. Furthermore we added the supplementary Figures as below.

      Author response image 6.

      Basic concept of the UC2 setup: Left: Cubes (green) are connected to one another via puzzle pieces (white). Middle: 3D printed mounts have been designed to adapt various optics (right) to the cube framework. Combined usage of cubes and design of various mounts allows to interface various optics for the assembly.

      Author response image 7.

      Building the UC2 widefield microscope: a. Photograph of the complete setup. b. All pieces necessary to build the setup. A list of the components can be found in the bill of materials. c. Bottom emission layer of the microscope before assembly. d. Emission layer after assembly. Connection between cubes is doubled by using a layer of puzzles on the top and the bottom of the emission layer. e. CAD schematic of the emission layer and the positioning of the optics. f. Middle excitation layer of the microscope before assembly. Beam magnifier and homogenizer have been left out for clarity. g. Excitation layer after assembly is also covered by a puzzle layer. h. CAD schematic of the excitation layer and the positioning of the optics. i. Z-stage photograph and corresponding CAD file. Motor of the stage is embedded within the bottom cube. j. A layer of empty cubes supports the microscope stage. k. At this stage of the assembly, the objective is screwed into the objective holder. l. Finally, the stage is wired to the electronics and can then be mounted on top of the microscope (see a.).

      Author response image 8.

      Measurements performed on the UC2 setup with lower budget objectives. The imaged sample is HeLa cells, stably transfected to express CLC-GFP, then labelled with AF647 through immunostaining. The setup has been kept identical except for the objectives. Scale bar respectively represents 30 µm.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment 

      This study investigates associations between retrotransposon element expression and methylation with age and inflammation, using multiple public datasets. The study is valuable because a systematic analysis of retrotransposon element expression during human aging has been lacking. However, the data provided are incomplete due to the sole reliance on microarray expression data for the core analysis of the paper. 

      Both reviewers found this study to be important. We have selected the microarray datasets of human blood adopted by a comprehensive study of ageing published in a Nature

      Communications manuscript (DOI: doi: 10.1038/ncomms9570). We only included the datasets specifically collected for ageing studies. Therefore, the large RNA-seq cohorts for cancer, cardiovascular, and neurological diseases were not relevant to this study and cannot be included.   

      Public Reviews: 

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      Tsai and Seymen et al. investigate associations between RTE expression and methylation and age and inflammation, using multiple public datasets. The concept of the study is in principle interesting, as a systematic analysis of RTE expression during human aging is lacking. 

      We thank the reviewer for the positive comment. 

      Unfortunately, the reliance on expression microarray data, used to perform the core analysis of the paper places much of the study on shaky ground. The findings of the study would not be sufficiently supported until the authors validate them with more suitable methods. 

      In our discussion section in the manuscript, we have clarified that “we are aware of the limitations imposed by using microarray in this study, particularly the low number of intergenic probes in the expression microarray data. Our study can be enriched with the advent of large  RNA-seq cohorts for aging studies in the future.”  However, the application of microarray for RTE expression analysis was introduced previously (DOI: 10.1371/journal.pcbi.1002486) and applied in some highly cited and important publications before (DOI: 10.1038/ncomms1180, DOI: 10.1093/jnci/djr540). In fact, in a manuscript published by Reichmann et al.  (DOI: 10.1371/journal.pcbi.1002486) which was cited 76 times, the authors showed and experimentally verified that cryptic repetitive element probes present in Illumina and Affymetrix gene expression microarray platforms can accurately and sensitively monitor repetitive element expression data. Inspired by this methodological manuscript with reasonable acceptance by other researchers, we trusted that the RTE microarray probes could accurately quantify RTE expression at class and family levels.

      Strengths: 

      This is a very important biological problem. 

      Weaknesses: 

      RNA microarray probes are obviously biased to genes, and thus quantifying transposon analysis based on them seems dubious. Based on how arrays are designed there should at least be partial (perhaps outdated evidence) that the probe sites overlap a protein-coding or non-coding RNA. 

      We disagree with the reviewer that quantifying transposon analysis based on microarray data is dubious. As previously shown by Reichmann et al., the quantification is reliable as long as the probes do not overlap with annotated genes and they are in the correct orientation to detect sense repetitive element transcripts. Reichman et al. identified 1,400 repetitive element probes in version 1.0, version 1.1 and version 2.0 of the Illumina Mouse WG-6 Beadchips by comparing the genomic locations of the probes with the Repeatmasked regions of the mouse genome. We applied the same criteria for Illumina Human HT-12 V3 (29431 probes) and V4 (33963) to identify the RTE-specific probes. 

      The authors state they only used intergenic probes, but based on supplementary files, almost half of RTE probes are not intergenic but intronic (n=106 out of 264). 

      All our identified RTE probes overlap with intergenic regions. However, due to their repetitive natures, some probes overlap with intronic regions, too. We have replaced "intergenic" with "non-coding" in our resubmission to show that they do not overlap with the exons of protein-coding genes. However, we do not rule out the possibility that some of our detected RTE probes might overlap non-coding RNAs. In fact, the border between coding and non-coding genomes has recently become very fuzzy with new annotations of the genome. RTE RNAs can be easily considered as non-coding RNAs if we challenge our traditional junk DNA view. 

      This is further complicated by the fact that not all this small subset of probes is available in all analyzed datasets. For example, 232 probes were used for the MESA dataset but only 80 for the GTP dataset. Thus, RTE expression is quantified with a set of probes which is extremely likely to be highly affected by non-RTE transcripts and that is also different across the studied datasets. Differences in the subsets of probes could very well explain the large differences between datasets in multiple of the analyses performed by the authors, such as in Figure 2a, or 3a. It is nonetheless possible that the quantification of RTE expression performed by the authors is truly interpretable as RTE expression, but this must be validated with more data from RNA-seq. Above all, microarray data should not be the main type of data used in the type of analysis performed by the authors. 

      In this study, we did not compare MESA with GTP etc. We have analysed each dataset separately based on the available data for that dataset. Therefore, sacrificing one analysis because of the lack of information from the other does not make sense. We would do that if we were after comparing different datasets. Moreover, the datasets are not comparable because they were collected from different types of blood samples. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      Yi-Ting Tsai and colleagues conducted a systematic analysis of the correlation between the expression of retrotransposable elements (RTEs) and aging, using publicly available transcriptional and methylome microarray datasets of blood cells from large human cohorts, as well as single-cell transcriptomics. Although DNA hypomethylation was associated with chronological age across all RTE biotypes, the authors did not find a correlation between the levels of RTE expression and chronological age. However, expression levels of LINEs and LTRs positively correlated with DNA demethylation, and inflammatory and senescence gene signatures, indicative of "biological age". Gene set variation analysis showed that the inflammatory response is enriched in the samples expressing high levels of LINEs and LTRs. In summary, the study demonstrates that RTE expression correlates with "biological" rather than "chronological" aging. 

      Strengths: 

      The question the authors address is both relevant and important to the fields of aging and transposon biology. 

      We thank the reviewer for finding this study relevant and important.

      Weaknesses: 

      The choice of methodology does not fully support the primary claims. Although microarrays can detect certain intergenic transposon sequences, the authors themselves acknowledge in the Discussion section that this method's resolution is limited. More critical considerations, however, should be addressed when interpreting the results. The coverage of transposon sequences by microarrays is not only very limited (232 unique probes) but also predetermined. This implies that any potential age-related overexpression of RTEs located outside of the microarray-associated regions, or of polymorphic intact transposons, may go undetected. Therefore, the authors should be more careful while generalising their conclusions. 

      This is a bioinformatics study, and we have already admitted and discussed the limitations in the discussion section of this manuscript. All technologies have their own limitations, and this should not stop us from shedding light on scientific facts because of inadequate information. In the manuscript, we have discussed that all large and proper ageing studies were performed using microarray technology. Peters et al. (DOI: doi: 10.1038/ncomms9570) adopted all these datasets in their transcriptional landscape of ageing manuscript, which was used in previous studies of ageing as well. Our study essentially applies the Reichmann et al. method to the peripheral blood-related data from the Peters et al. manuscript. Since hypomethylation due to ageing is a well-established and broad epigenetic reprogramming, it is unlikely that only a fraction of RTEs is affected by this phenomenon. Therefore, the subsampling of RTEs should not affect the result so much. Indeed, this is supported in our study by the inverse correlation between DNA methylation and RTE expression for LINE and SINE classes despite having limited numbers of probes for LINE and SINE expressions.    

      Additionally, for some analyses, the authors pool signals from RTEs by class or family, despite the fact that these groups include subfamilies and members with very different properties and harmful potentials. For example, while sequences of older subfamilies might be passively expressed through readthrough transcription, intact members of younger groups could be autonomously reactivated and cause inflammation. The aggregation of signals by the largest group may obscure the potential reactivation of smaller subgroups. I recommend grouping by subfamily or, if not possible due to the low expression scores, by subgroup. For example, all HERV subfamilies are from the ERVL family. 

      We agree with the reviewer that different subfamilies of RTEs play different roles through their activation. However, we will lose our statistical power if we study RTE subfamilies with a few probes. Global epigenetic alteration and derepression of RTEs by ageing have been observed to be genome-wide. While our systematic analysis across RTE classes and families cannot capture alterations in subfamilies due to statistical power, it is still relevant to the research question we are addressing.

      Next, Illumina arrays might not accurately represent the true abundance of TEs due to nonspecific hybridization of genomic transposons. Standard RNA preparations always contain traces of abundant genomic SINEs unless DNA elimination is specifically thorough. The problem of such noise should be addressed. 

      We have checked the RNA isolation step from MESA, GTP, and GARP manuscripts. The total RNA was isolated using the Qiagen mini kit following the manufacturer’s recommendations. The authors of these manuscripts did not mention whether they eliminated genomics DNA, but we assumed they were aware of the DNA contamination and eliminated it based on the manufacturer’s recommendations. We have looked up the literature about nonspecific hybridization of RTEs but could not find any evidence to support this observation. We would appreciate the reviewers providing more evidence about such RTE contaminations.   

      Lastly, scRNAseq was conducted using 10x Genomics technology. However, quantifying transposons in 10x sequencing datasets presents major challenges due to sparse signals. 

      Applying the scTE pipeline (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-21808-x), we have found that the statical power of quantifying RTE classes (LINE, SINE, and LTR) or  RTE families (L1, L2, All, ERVK, etc.) are as good as each individual gene. However, our proposed method cannot analyse RTE subfamilies, and we did not do that. 

      Smart-seq single-cell technology is better suited to this particular purpose. 

      We agree with the reviewer that Smart-seq provides higher yield than 10x, but there is no Smartseq data available for ageing study.  

      Anyway, it would be more convincing if the authors demonstrated TE expression across different clusters of immune cells using standard scRNAseq UMAP plots instead of boxplots. 

      Since the number of RTE reads per cell is low, showing the expression of RTEs per cell in UMAP may not be the best statistical approach to show the difference between the aged and young groups. This is why we chose to analyse with Pseudobulk and displayed differential expression using boxplot rather than UMAP for each immune cell type. 

      I recommend validating the data by RNAseq, even on small cohorts. Given that the connection between RTE overexpression and inflammation has been previously established, the authors should consider better integrating their observations into the existing knowledge. 

      Please see below. We have analysed RNA-seq data suggested by Reviewer 1 in the Recommendations for the Authors section.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      I can recommend two sizeable human PMBC RNA-seq datasets that the authors could use:

      Marquez et al. 2020 (phs001934.v1.p1, controlled access) and Morandini et al. 2023 (GSE193141, public access). There are likely other suitable datasets that I am not aware of. I would also recommend using identical sets of probes to quantify RTE expression across studies. If certain datasets have too few probes and would thus limit the number of probes available across all studies it might be a good idea to exclude the dataset, especially if the analysis has been supplemented by the additional RNA-seq datasets. 

      Until recently, there was no publicly-available, non-cancerous, large cohort of RNA-seq data for ageing studies. We tried to gain access to the two RNA-seq datasets suggested by reviewer 2: Marquez et al. 2020 (phs001934.v1.p1, controlled access) and Morandini et al. 2023 (GSE193141, public access). 

      Unfortunately, Marquez et al. 2020 data is not accessible because the authors only provide the data for projects related to cardiovascular diseases. However, we did analyse Morandini et al. 2023 data, and we can confirm that no association was observed between any class and family of RTEs with chronological ageing (Author response image 1), which is the second strong piece of evidence supporting the statement in the manuscript. However, as expected, we found a positive correlation between RTE expression and IFN-I signature score (Author response image 2).

      Author response image 1.

      Linear analysis of RTE expression and chronological age.

      Author response image 2.

      Linear analysis of RTE expression and IFN gene signature expression.

      The authors use "biological age" and inflammation as interchangeable concepts, including in the title. Please correct this wording. 

      We have now added a new terminology to the manuscript called “biological age-related (BAR)”, which has been clearly addressed this distinction. We don’t think it is needed to change the title.  

      The authors find correlations between RTE expression and age-associated gene signatures but not chronological age itself. This is puzzling because, as the wording suggests, the expression of these inflammatory pathways is age-associated. If RTE expression correlates with inflammation which itself correlates with age, one might expect RTE expression to also correlate with age. Do the authors see a correlation between various inflammatory gene signatures and chronological age, in the analyzed datasets? If yes, then how would you explain that discrepancy? Moreover, in this case, I would recommend using a linear model, rather than correlation, to separate the effects of chronological age and RTE expression on inflammation (Inflammation et al ~ Age + RTE expression), or equivalent designs.

      As described above, we have now introduced the BAR terminology, which resolves this confusion. We did not find a correlation between RTE expression and chronological age. However, we did identify the correlation between BAR gene signatures and RTE expression.

      To separate the effects of chronological age and RTE expression on BAR gene signature scores, we performed a generalized linear model (GLM) analysis using BAR gene signature scores as response variables and RTE expression and chronological age as predictors (BAR gene signature scores ~ RTE expression + chronological age). Significant association was observed between BAR gene signature scores and RTE expression in the GARP cohort (Author response image 3). However, when chronological age is considered as predictor, we did not identify a correlation between chronological age and BAR gene signatures, indicating that BAR events are not corelated with chronological age (Author response image 3).  

      Author response image 3.

      Generalized linear models (GLM) analysis (BAR gene signature scores ~ RTE expression + chronological age). For each RTE family, we separately performed GLM. Age (RTE family) indicates the chronological age when used in the design formula for that specific RTE family. 

      Some of the gene sets used by the authors have considerable overlap with others and are also not particularly comprehensive. I can recommend this very comprehensive gene set: https://www.gsea-msigdb.org/gsea/msigdb/human/geneset/SAUL_SEN_MAYO.  

      We did not choose to use large gene lists such as the suggested SEN_MAYO list, as we found Singscore struggles to generate reliable scores with sufficient variance when the number of genes increase to more than twenty. Although there is some overlap between inflammation-related genes and cellular senescence genes (e.g., IL6, IL1A, IL1B), it is important to note that each gene list focuses on different aspects of biological aging and should not be dismissed as redundant.

      Minor comments: 

      Overall, several sentences in the manuscript feel somewhat unnatural. I would recommend further proofreading. I will mention some examples:  

      Thank you for your feedback. We have fixed all these issues in the new submission.  

      • One line 34, "like the retroviruses" should be "like retroviruses. There are several other places in the text where "the" is not required. 

      Fixed.

      • On line 86, "to generate the RTE expression". "the" is again not necessary and I would replace "generate" with "quantify". 

      Fixed.

      • On line 86, "we mapped the probe locations to RepeatMasker". RepeatMasker is not a genome. Do you mean you mapped the probe location to a genome annotated by RepeatMasker? The same applies to line 99.  

      Fixed. We changed the sentence to: “To quantify RTE expression, we mapped the microarray probe locations to RTE locations in RepeatMasker to extract the list of noncoding (intergenic or intronic) probes that cover the RTE regions.”

      • Figure 1 contains a typo in the aims section: "evetns" instead of "events".  

      Fixed.

      • On line 495 "filtered out" seems to imply your removed intergenic probes. I assume you mean that you specifically selected intergenic probes. 

      Fixed.

      • Figure 1 nicely summarizes your datasets. Could you add a Figure 1b panel showing how you used RNA arrays to quantify RTE expression? This should include the number of probes for each RTE family, so I suggest merging this with Figure S1.  

      We disagree with the reviewer to merge Figure 1 and Figure S1 because they are addressing two different concepts.  

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      In Figure 2c, it is unclear what colour scale has been used for age. 

      Thank you for the comment. We have added a legend for age in this figure.

      There are no figure legends for Supplementary Figures 1 to 5 and all figures after Supplementary Figure 8. 

      A new version with legends has been submitted.

      For different datasets used, the choice of "healthy" patients should be more clear and explicit.

      Are asymptomatic patients with autoimmune inflammatory disorders considered as "healthy"? If not only healthy patients' blood is analysed (such as PBMS from primary osteoarthrosis), how inflammatory signatures enrichment discovered in this study may be associated not just with "biological age" but with the disease itself? 

      In our analysis, we did not exclusively study "healthy" individuals, as none of our datasets were initially collected from strictly healthy populations. While the microarray datasets were not specifically collected from people with particular diseases, they were also not screened for asymptomatic conditions. To demonstrate the same pattern in healthier cohorts, we added scRNA-seq analysis of confirmed healthy individuals to our study. However, the focus of this study is not on healthy aging. Instead, it is on biological ageing that includes both healthy and non-healthy ageing.

      We included the GARP (primary osteoarthritis) dataset as it is a cohort of age-related diseases (ARD). While we cannot definitively attribute inflammatory signatures enrichment to biological aging or disease, the observation of such enrichment in a cohort of ARD is worth considering. To make this clearer, we have replaced the term “healthy” with “non-cancerous” for microarray analysis throughout the paper.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Response to reviewers

      We would like to thank the reviewers for their feedback. Below we address their comments and have indicated the associated changes in our point-by-point response (blue: answers, red: changes in manuscript).

      Reviewer #1:

      Overall, the hypotheses and results are clearly presented and supported by high quality figures. The study is presented in a didactic way, making it easy for a broad audience to understand the significance of the results. The study does present some weaknesses that could easily be addressed by the authors.

      We thank the reviewer for appreciating our work and providing useful suggestions for improvement.

      1) First, there are some anatomical inaccuracies: line 129 and fig1C, the authors omit m.dial septum projections to area CA1 (in addition to the entorhinal cortex). Moreover, in addition to CA1, CA3 also provides monosynaptic feedback projections to the medial septum CA3. Finally, an indirect projection from CA1/3 excitatory neurons to the lateral septum, which in turn sends inhibitory projections to the medial septum could be included or mentioned by the authors. This could be of particular relevance to support claims related to effects of neurostimulations, whereby minutious implementation of anatomical data could be key.

      If not updating their model, the authors could add this point to their limitation section, where they already do a good job of mentioning some limitations of using the EC as a sole oscillatory input to CA1.

      We acknowledge that our current model strongly simplifies the interconnections between the medial septum and the hippocampal formation, but including more anatomical details is beyond the scope of this manuscript and would be a topic for future work. Nevertheless, we followed the reviewer’s advice to stress this point in our manuscript. First, we moved a paragraph that was initially in the “methods” section to the “results” section (L.141-150 of the revised manuscript):

      “Biologically, GABAergic neurons from the medial septum project to the EC, CA3, and CA1 fields of the hippocampus (Toth et al., 1993; Hajós et al., 2004; Manseau et al., 2008; Hangya et al., 2009; Unal et al., 2015; Müller and Remy, 2018). Although the respective roles of these different projections are not fully understood, previous computational studies have suggested that the direct projection from the medial septum to CA1 is not essential for the production of theta in CA1 microcircuits (Mysin et al., 2019). Since our modeling of the medial septum is only used to generate a dynamic theta rhythm, we opted for a simplified representation where the medial septum projects only to the EC, which in turn drives the different fields of the hippocampus. In our model, Kuramoto oscillators are therefore connected to the EC neurons and they receive projections from CA1 neurons (see methods for more details).”

      Second, we expanded the corresponding paragraph in the limitation section to discuss this point further (L.398-415 of the revised manuscript):

      “We decided to model septal pacemaker neurons projecting to the EC as the main source of hippocampal theta as reported in multiple experimental studies (Buzsáki, 2002; Buzsáki et al., 2003; Hangya et al., 2009). However, experimental findings and previous models have also proposed that direct septal inputs are not essential for theta generation (Wang, 2002; Colgin et al., 2013; Mysin et al., 2019), but play an important role in phase synchronization of hippocampal neurons. Furthermore, the model does not account for the connections between the lateral and medial septum and the hippocampus (Takeuchi et al., 2021). These connections include the inhibitory projections from the lateral to the medial septum and the monosynaptic projections from the hippocampal CA3 field to the lateral septum. An experimental study has highlighted the importance of the lateral septum in regulating the hippocampal theta rhythm (Bender et al., 2015), an area that has not been included in the model. Specifically, theta-rhythmic optogenetic stimulation of the axonal projections from the lateral septum to the hippocampus was shown to entrain theta oscillations and lead to behavioral changes during exploration in transgenic mice. To account for these discrepancies, our model could be extended by considering more realistic connectivity patterns between the medial / lateral septum and the hippocampal formation, including glutamatergic, cholinergic, and GABAergic reciprocal connections (Müller and Remy, 2018), or by considering multiple sets of oscillators each representing one theta generator.”

      1. The authors test conditions of low theta inputs, which they liken to pathological states (line 112). It is not clear what pathology the authors are referring to, especially since a large amount of 'oscillopathies' in the septohippocampal system are associated with decreased gamma/PAC, but not theta oscillations (e.g. Alzheimer's disease conditions).

      In the manuscript, we referred to “oscillopathies” in a broad sense way as we did not want to overstate the biological implications of the model or the way we modeled pathological states. To our knowledge, several studies have yielded inconsistent results regarding the specific changes in theta or gamma power in Alzheimer’s disease, and the most convincing alteration seems to be the theta-gamma phase-amplitude coupling (PAC) (for review see e.g., Kitchigina, V. F. Alterations of Coherent Theta and Gamma Network Oscillations as an Early Biomarker of Temporal Lobe Epilepsy and Alzheimer’s Disease. Front Integr Neurosci 12, 36 (2018)), as also mentioned by the reviewer.

      In this study, the most straightforward way to reduce theta-gamma PAC was to reduce the amplitude of the oscillators’ gain, which affected theta power, gamma power, and theta-gamma PAC (Figure 5 of the revised manuscript). Affecting their synchronization level (i.e., the order parameter) did not affect any of these variables (Figure 5 – Figure Supplement 4).

      In order to alter theta-gamma PAC without affecting theta or gamma power, we believe that more complex changes should be performed in the model, likely at the level of individual neurons in the hippocampal formation. For example, cholinergic deprivation has been previously used in a multi-compartment model of the hippocampal CA3 to mimic Alzheimer’s disease and to draw functional implications on the slowing of theta oscillations and the storage of new information (Menschik, E. D. & Finkel, L. H. Neuromodulatory control of hippocampal function: towards a model of Alzheimer’s disease. Artif Intell Med 13, 99–121 (1998)).

      This has now been added to the limitations section (L.458-465 of the revised manuscript):

      “Finally, we likened conditions of low theta input to pathological states characteristic of oscillopathies such as Alzheimer’s disease, as these conditions disrupted all aspects of theta-gamma oscillations in our model: theta power, gamma power, and theta-gamma PAC (Figure 5). However, it should be noted that changes in theta or gamma power in these pathologies are often unclear, and that the most consistent alteration that has been reported in Alzheimer’s disease is a reduction of theta-gamma PAC (for review, see Kitchigina, 2018). Future work should explore the effects of cellular alterations intrinsic to the hippocampal formation and their impact on theta-gamma oscillations.”

      1. While relevant for the clinical field, there is overall a missed opportunity to explain many experimental accounts with this novel model. Although to this day, clinical use of DBS is mostly restricted to electrical (and thus cell-type agnostic) stimulation, recent studies focusing on mechanisms of neurostimulations have manipulated specific subtypes in the medial septum and observed effects on hippocampal oscillations (e.g. see Muller & Remy, 2017 for review). Focusing stimulations in CA1 is of course relevant for clinical studies but testing mechanistic hypotheses by focusing stimulation on specific cell types could be highly informative. For instance, could the author reproduce recent optogenetic studies (e.g. Bender et al. 2015 for stimulation of fornix fibers; Etter et al., 2019 & Zutshi et al. 2018 for stimulation of septal inhibitory neurons)? Cell specific manipulations should at least be discussed by the authors.

      We acknowledge the importance of cell-type-specific manipulation in the septo-hippocampal circuitry. However, our model was designed to study neurostimulation protocols that affect the hippocampal formation, not the medial septum, which is why only the hippocampal formation is composed of biophysically realistic (i.e., conductance-based) neuronal models. To replicate the various studies mentioned by the reviewer (which are all very relevant), we would need to implement a biophysical model of the medial septum, which would be an entirely new project.

      Nevertheless, we can use the existing model to replicate optogenetic studies that induced gamma oscillations in excitatory-inhibitory circuits, using either ramped photostimulation targeting excitatory neurons (Adesnik et al., 2010; Akam et al., 2012; Lu et al., 2015), or pulsed stimulation driving inhibitory cells in the gamma range (Cardin et al., 2009; Iaccarino et al., 2016). In fact, such approaches have been demonstrated not just in the hippocampus but also in the neocortex, and represent a hallmark of local excitatory-inhibitory circuits. To account for these experimental results and replicate them, we have added 4 new figures (Figure 2 and its 3 figure supplements) and an extensive section in the results part (L.151-217 of the revised manuscript):

      “From a conceptual point of view, our model is thus composed of excitatory-inhibitory (E-I) circuits connected in series, with a feedback loop going through a population of coupled phase oscillators. In the next sections, we first describe the generation of gamma oscillations by individual E-I circuits (Figure 2), and illustrate their behavior when driven by an oscillatory input such as theta oscillations (Figure 3). We then present a thorough characterization of the effects of theta input and stimulation amplitude on theta-nested gamma oscillations (Figure 4 and Figure 5). Finally, we present some results on the effects of neurostimulation protocols for restoring theta-nested gamma oscillations in pathological states (Figure 6 and Figure 7).

      Generation of gamma oscillations by E-I circuits

      It is well-established that a network of interconnected pyramidal neurons and interneurons can give rise to oscillations in the gamma range, a mechanism termed pyramidal-interneuronal network gamma (PING) (Traub et al., 2004; Onslow et al., 2014; Segneri et al., 2020;). This mechanism has been observed in several optogenetic studies with gradually increasing light intensity (i.e., under a ramp input) affecting multiple different circuits, such as layer 2-3 pyramidal neurons of the mouse somatosensory cortex (Adesnik et al., 2010), the CA3 field of the hippocampus in rat in vitro slices (Akam et al., 2012), and in the non-human primate motor cortex (Lu et al., 2015). In all cases, gamma oscillations emerged above a certain threshold in terms of photostimulation intensity, and the frequency of these oscillations was either stable or slightly increased when increasing the intensity further. We sought to replicate these findings with our elementary E-I circuits composed of single-compartment conductance-based neurons driven by a ramping input current (Figure 2 and Figure S2). As an example, all the results in this section will be shown for an E-I circuit that has similar connectivity parameters as the CA1 field of the hippocampus in our complete model (see section “Hippocampal formation: inputs and connectivity” in the methods).

      For low input currents provided to both neuronal populations, only the highly-excitable interneurons were activated (Figure 2A). For a sufficiently high input current (i.e., a strong input that could overcome the inhibition from the fast-spiking interneurons), the pyramidal neurons started spiking as well. As the amplitude of the input increased, the activity of the both neuronal populations became synchronized in the gamma range, asymptotically reaching a frequency of about 60 Hz (Figure 2A bottom panel). Decoupling the populations led to the abolition of gamma oscillations (Figure 2B), as neuronal activity was determined solely by the intrinsic properties of each cell. Interestingly, when the ramp input was provided solely to the excitatory population, we observed that the activity of the pyramidal neurons preceded the activity of the inhibitory neurons, while still preserving the emergence of gamma oscillations (Figure S2 A). As expected, decoupling the populations also abolished gamma oscillations, with the excitatory neurons spiking a frequency determined by their intrinsic properties and the inhibitory population remaining silent (Figure S2B).

      To further characterize the intrinsic properties of individual inhibitory and excitatory neurons, we derived their input-frequency (I-F) curves, which represent the firing rate of individual neurons in response to a tonic input (Figure S3A). We observed that for certain input amplitudes, the firing rates of both types of neurons was within the gamma range. Interestingly, in the absence of noise, each population could generate by itself gamma oscillations that were purely driven by the input and determined by the intrinsic properties of the neurons (Figure S3B). Adding stochastic Gaussian noise in the membrane potential disrupted these artificial oscillations in decoupled populations (Figure S3C). All subsequent simulations were run with similar noise levels to prevent the emergence of artificial gamma oscillations.

      Another potent way to induce gamma oscillations is to drive fast-spiking inhibitory neurons using pulsed optogenetic stimulation at gamma frequencies, a strategy that has been used both in the neocortex (Cardin et al., 2009) and hippocampal CA1 (Iaccarino et al., 2016). In particular, Cardin and colleagues systematically investigated the effect of driving either excitatory or fast-spiking inhibitory neocortical neurons at frequencies between 10 and 200 Hz (Cardin et al., 2009). They showed that fast-spiking interneurons are preferentially entrained around 40-50 Hz, while excitatory neurons respond better to lower frequencies. To verify the behavior of our model against these experimental data, we simulated pulsed optogenetic stimulation as an intracellular current provided to our reduced model of a single E-I circuit. Stimulation was applied at frequencies between 10 and 200 Hz to excitatory cells only, to inhibitory cells only, or to both at the same time (Figure S4). The population firing rates were used as a proxy for the local field potentials (LFP), and we computed the relative power in a 10-Hz band centered around the stimulation frequency, similarly to the method proposed in (Cardin et al., 2009). When presented with continuous stimulation across a range of frequencies in the gamma range, interneurons showed the greatest degree of gamma power modulation (Figure S4). Furthermore, when the stimulation was delivered to the excitatory population, the relative power around the stimulation frequency dropped significantly in frequencies above 10 Hz, similar to the reported experimental data (Cardin et al., 2009). The main difference between our simulation results and these experimental data is the specific frequencies at which fast-spiking interneurons showed resonance, which was slow gamma around 40 Hz in the mouse barrel cortex and fast gamma around 90 Hz in our model. This could be attributed to several factors, such as differences in the cellular properties between cortical and hippocampal fast-spiking interneurons, or the differences between the size of the populations and their relevant connectivity in the cortex and the hippocampus.”

      Author response image 1.

      Figure 2. Emergence of gamma oscillations in coupled excitatory-inhibitory populations under ramping input to both populations. A. Two coupled populations of excitatory pyramidal neurons (NE = 1000) and inhibitory interneurons (NI = 100) are driven by a ramping current input (0 nA to 1 nA) for 5 s. As the input becomes stronger, oscillations start to emerge (shaded green area), driven by the interactions between excitatory and inhibitory populations. The green inset shows the raster plot (neuronal spikes across time) of the two populations during the green shaded period (red for inhibitory; blue for excitatory). When the input becomes sufficiently strong (shaded magenta area), the populations become highly synchronized and produce oscillations in the gamma range (at approximately 50 Hz). The spectrogram (bottom panel) shows the power of the instantaneous firing rate of the pyramidal population as a function of time and frequency. It reveals the presence of gamma oscillations that emerge around 2s and increase in frequency until 4 s, when they settle at approximately 60 Hz. B. Similar depiction as in panel A. with the pyramidal-interneuronal populations decoupled. The absence of coupling leads to the abolition of gamma oscillations, each cell spiking activity being driven by its own inputs and intrinsic properties.

      Author response image 2.

      Figure S2 (Figure 2 – Figure Supplement 1). Emergence of gamma oscillations in coupled excitatoryinhibitory populations under ramping input to the excitatory population. Similar representation as in Figure 2, but with the input provided only to the excitatory population. All conclusions remain the same. In addition, the inhibitory population does not show any spiking activity in the decoupled case.

      Author response image 3.

      Figure S3 (Figure 2 – Figure Supplement 2). Cell-intrinsic spiking activity in decoupled excitatory and inhibitory populations under ramping input. A. Input-Frequency (I-F) curves for excitatory cells (left panel; pyramidal neurons with ICAN) and inhibitory cells (right panel; interneurons, fast-spiking) used in the model. Above a certain tonic input (around 0.35 nA for excitatory and 0.1 nA for inhibitory neurons), neurons can spike in the gamma range. B. Raster plot showing the spiking activity of excitatory (blue, NE = 1000) and inhibitory (red, NI = 100) neurons in decoupled populations under ramping input (top trace) and in the absence of noise in the membrane potential. Despite random initial conditions across neurons, oscillations emerge in both populations due to the intrinsic properties of the cells, with a frequency that is predicted by the respective I-F curves (panel A.). C. Similar representation as panel B. but with the addition of stochastic noise in the membrane potential of each neuron. The presence of noise disrupts the emergence of oscillations in these decoupled populations.

      Author response image 4.

      Figure S3 (Figure 2 – Figure Supplement 2). Cell-intrinsic spiking activity in decoupled excitatory and inhibitory populations under ramping input. A. Input-Frequency (I-F) curves for excitatory cells (left panel; pyramidal neurons with ICAN) and inhibitory cells (right panel; interneurons, fast-spiking) used in the model. Above a certain tonic input (around 0.35 nA for excitatory and 0.1 nA for inhibitory neurons), neurons can spike in the gamma range. B. Raster plot showing the spiking activity of excitatory (blue, NE = 1000) and inhibitory (red, NI = 100) neurons in decoupled populations under ramping input (top trace) and in the absence of noise in the membrane potential. Despite random initial conditions across neurons, oscillations emerge in both populations due to the intrinsic properties of the cells, with a frequency that is predicted by the respective I-F curves (panel A.). C. Similar representation as panel B. but with the addition of stochastic noise in the membrane potential of each neuron. The presence of noise disrupts the emergence of oscillations in these decoupled populations.

      Beyond these weaknesses, this study has a strong utility for researchers wanting to explore hypotheses in the field of neurostimulations. In particular, I see value in such models for exploring more intricate, phase specific effects of continuous, as well as close loop stimulations which are on the rise in systems neuroscience.

      We thank the reviewer for this appreciation of our work and its future perspectives.

      Recommendations For The Authors:

      Line 144, the authors mention that their MI values are erroneous in absence of additive noise - could this be due to the non-sinusoidal nature of the phase signal recorded, and be fixed by upscaling model size?

      We thank the reviewer for this question and suggestion. The main reason behind the errors in the computation of the MI lies in the complete absence of oscillations at specific frequencies. Filtered signals within specific bands produced a power of 0 (or extremely low values), as seen in the power spectral densities. In such cases, the phase signal was not mathematically defined, but the toolbox we used to compute it still returned a numerical result that was inaccurate (for more details on the computation of the MI see Tort et al., 2010). To mitigate this numerical artefact, we decided to add uniform noise in the computed firing rates. This strategy is illustrated on Figure S6 (Figure 3 – Figure Supplement 2), which we have copied below for reference. Alternative approaches could probably have been used, such as increasing the noise in the membrane potential so that neurons would start spiking with firing rates that show more realistic power spectra, even in the absence of external inputs.

      Author response image 5.

      Figure S6 (Figure 3 – Figure Supplement 2). Quantification of PAC with and without noise. A. Quantifying PAC in the absence of noise produced inaccurate identification of the coupled frequency bands, due to the complete absence of oscillations at some frequencies. All analyses are based on the CA1 firing rates (top traces) during a representative simulation. Power spectral densities of these firing rates (left) indicate that some frequencies have a power of 0. PAC of the excitatory population was assessed using two graphical representations, the polar plot (middle) and comodulogram (right), and quantified using the MI. The comodulogram was calculated by computing the MI across 80% overlapping 1-Hz frequency bands in the theta range and across 90% overlapping 10-Hz frequency bands in the gamma range and subsequently plotted as a heat map. In the absence of noise, a slow theta frequency centered around 5 Hz is found to modulate a broad range of gamma frequencies between 40 and 100 Hz. The value indicated on the comodulogram indicates the average MI in the 3-9 Hz theta range and 40-80 Hz gamma range. As in Figure 2, the polar plot represents the amplitude of gamma oscillations (averaged across all theta cycles) at each phase of theta (theta range: 3-9 Hz, phase indicated as angular coordinate) and for different gamma frequencies (radial coordinate, binned in 1-Hz ranges). B. Adding uniform noise to the firing rate (with an amplitude ranging between 15 and 25% of the maximum firing rate) improved the identification of the coupled frequency bands. In this case, the slower theta frequency centered around 5 Hz modulates a gamma band located between 45 and 75 Hz.

      Reviewer #2:

      The main strength of this model is its use of a fairly physiologically detailed model of the hippocampus. The cells are single-compartment models but do include multiple ion channels and are spatially arranged in accordance with the hippocampal structure. This allows the understanding of how ion channels (possibly modifiable by pharmacological agents) interact with system-level oscillations and neurostimulation. The model also includes all the main hippocampal subfields. The other strength is its attention to an important topic, which may be relevant for dementia treatment or prevention, which few modeling studies have addressed. The work has several weaknesses.

      We thank the reviewer for appreciating our detailed description of the hippocampal formation and the focus on neurostimulation applications that aim at treating oscillopathies, especially dementia.

      1. First, while investigations of hippocampal neurostimulation are important there are few experimental studies from which one could judge the validity of the model findings. All its findings are therefore predictions. It would be much more convincing to first show the model is able to reproduce some measured empirical neurostimulation effect before proceeding to make predictions.

      We acknowledge that the results presented in Figures 4-7 of the revised manuscript cannot be compared to existing experimental data, and are therefore purely predictive. Future experimental work is needed to verify these predictions.

      Yet, we would also like to stress that the motivation behind this project was the inadequacy of previous models of theta-nested gamma oscillations (Onslow et al., 2014; Aussel et al., 2018; Segneri et al., 2020) to account for the mechanism of theta phase reset that occurs during electrical stimulation of the fornix or perforant path (Williams and Givens, 2003). Since we could not use these previous models to study the effects of neurostimulation on theta-nested gamma oscillations, we had to modify them to account for a dynamical theta input, which is the main methodological novelty that is reported in our manuscript (Figures 1 and 3 of the revised manuscript).

      Despite the scarcity of experimental studies that could confirm the full model, we sought to replicate a few experimental findings that employed optogenetic stimulation to induce gamma oscillations in individual excitatory-inhibitory circuits. Although not specific to the hippocampus, these studies have shown that gamma oscillations can be induced using either ramped photostimulation targeting excitatory neurons (Adesnik et al., 2010; Akam et al., 2012; Lu et al., 2015), or pulsed stimulation driving inhibitory cells in the gamma range (Cardin et al., 2009; Iaccarino et al., 2016). To account for these experimental results and replicate them, we have added 4 new figures (Figure 2 and its 3 figure supplements) and an extensive section in the results part (L.141-217 of the revised manuscript). The added section and related figures are indicated in our response to reviewer 1, comment 3 (p 2-7).

      2.1. Second, the model is very specific. Or if its behavior is to be considered general it has not been explained why.

      Although the spatial organization and cellular details of the model are indeed very specific, its general behavior, i.e., the production of theta-nested gamma oscillations and theta phase reset, are common to any excitatory-inhibitory circuit interconnected with Kuramoto oscillators. To illustrate this point, we have generalized our approach to the neural mass model developed by Onslow and colleagues (Onslow ACE, Jones MW, Bogacz R. A Canonical Circuit for Generating Phase-Amplitude Coupling. PLoS ONE. 2014 Aug; 9(8):e102591). These results are represented in a new supplementary figure (Figure3 – Figure Supplement 4), and briefly described in a new paragraph of the results section (L.262-268 of the revised manuscript):

      “Importantly, our approach is generalizable and can be applied to other models producing theta-nested gamma oscillations. For instance, we adapted the neural mass model by Onslow and colleagues (Onslow et al., 2014), replaced the fixed theta input by a set of Kuramoto oscillators, and demonstrated that it could also generate theta phase reset in response to single-pulse stimulation (Figure S8). These results illustrate that the general behavior of our model is not specific to the tuning of individual parameters in the conductancebased neurons, but follows general rules that are captured by the level of abstraction of the Kuramoto formalism.”

      Author response image 6.

      Figure S8 (Figure 3 – Figure Supplement 4). A neural mass model of coupled excitatory and inhibitory neurons driven by Kuramoto oscillators generates theta-nested gamma oscillations and theta phase reset. A. Two coupled neural masses (one excitatory and one inhibitory) driven by Kuramoto oscillators, which represent a dynamical oscillatory drive in the theta range, were used to implement a neural mass equivalent to our conductance-based model represented in Figure 1. Neural masses were modeled using the WilsonCowan formalism, with parameters adapted from Onslow et al. (2014) (𝑊𝐸𝐸 = 4.8, 𝑊𝐸𝐼 = 𝑊𝐼𝐸 = 4, 𝑊𝐼𝐼 = 0). B. The normalized population firing rates exhibit theta-nested gamma oscillations (middle and bottom panels) in response to the dynamic theta rhythm (top panel). A stimulation pulse delivered at the descending phase of the rhythm to both populations (marked by the inverted red triangle) produces a robust theta phase reset, similarly to Figure 3A.

      This simplified model is described in more details in the methods (L.694-710 of the revised manuscript). Additionally, the generation of gamma oscillations by individual excitatory-inhibitory circuits is now described in details in the added section “Generation of gamma oscillations by E-I circuits” (L.159-217 of the revised manuscript), which has already been discussed in our response to reviewer 1, comment 3 (p 2-7).

      2.2. For example, the model shows bistability between quiescence and TNGO, however what aspect of the model underlies this, be it some particular network structure or particular ion channel, for example, is not addressed.

      We thank the reviewer for mentioning this point, which we have now addressed. The “bistable” behavior that we reported occurs for values of the theta input that are just below the threshold to induce selfsustained theta-gamma oscillations (Figure 5 of the revised manuscript, point B). Moreover, the presence of the Calcium-Activated-Nonspecific (CAN) cationic channel, which is expressed by pyramidal neurons in the entorhinal cortex, CA3, and CA1 fields of the hippocampus, is necessary for this behavior to occur. Indeed, abolishing CAN channels in all areas of the model suppresses this behavior. We have now addressed this point in a new supplementary figure (Figure 5 – Figure Supplement 4) and a short description in the text (L.287-303 of the revised manuscript).

      “In the presence of dynamic theta input, the effects of single-pulse stimulation depended both on theta input amplitude and stimulation amplitude, highlighting different regimes of network activity (Figure 5 and Figure S9, Figure S10, Figure S11). For low theta input, theta-nested gamma oscillations were initially absent and could not be induced by stimulation (Figure 5A). At most, the stimulation could only elicit a few bursts of spiking activity that faded away after approximately 250 ms, similar to the rebound of activity seen in the absence of theta drive. For increasing theta input, the network switched to an intermediate regime: upon initialization at a state with no spiking activity, it could be kicked to a state with self-sustained theta-nested gamma oscillations by a single stimulation pulse of sufficiently high amplitude (Figure 5B). This regime existed for a range of septal theta inputs located just below the threshold to induce self-sustained theta-gamma oscillations without additional stimulation, as characterized by the post-stimulation theta power, gamma power, and theta-gamma PAC (Figure 5D). Removing CAN currents from all areas of the model abolished this behavior (Figure S12), which is interesting given the role of this current in the multistability of EC neurons (Egorov et al., 2002; Fransen et al., 2006) and in the intrinsic ability of the hippocampus to generate thetanested gamma oscillations (Giovannini et al., 2017). For the highest theta input, the network became able to spontaneously generate theta-nested gamma oscillations, even when initialized at a state with no spiking activity and without additional neurostimulation (Figure 5C).”

      Author response image 7.

      Figure S12 (Figure 5 – Figure Supplement 4). CAN currents are necessary for the production of selfsustained theta-gamma oscillations in response to single-pulse stimulation. A. Same as Figure 5B. B. Similar simulation as panel A., but without the presence of CAN currents in the EC, CA3 and CA1 fields of the hippocampus. Removing CAN currents from the model abolishes self-sustained theta-nested gamma oscillations in response to a single stimulation pulse (for the parameters represented in Figure 5, point B).

      Furthermore, we realized that the terminology “bistable” may not be justified as we could not perform a systematic bifurcation analysis, which is typically carried out in simpler neural mass models (e.g., Onslow et al., 2014; Segneri et al., 2020). Therefore, we decided to rephrase the sentences about “bistability” to keep a more general terminology. The following sentences were revised:

      L.20-23: “We showed that, for theta inputs just below the threshold to induce self-sustained theta-nested gamma oscillations, a single stimulation pulse could switch the network behavior from non-oscillatory to a state producing sustained oscillations.”

      L.305-309: “Based on the above analyses, we considered two pathological states: one with a moderate theta input (i.e., moderately weak projections from the medial septum to the EC) that allowed the initiation of selfsustained oscillations by single stimulation pulses (Figure 5, point B), and one with a weaker theta input characterized by the complete absence of self-sustained oscillations even following transient stimulation (Figure 5, point A).”

      L.316-317: “In the case of a moderate theta input and in the presence of phase reset, delivering a pulse at either the peak or trough of theta could induce theta-nested gamma oscillations (Figure 6A and 6C).”

      L.353-357: “A very interesting finding concerns the behavior of the model in response to single-pulse stimulation for certain values of the theta amplitude (Figure5). For low theta amplitudes, a single stimulation pulse was capable of switching the network behavior from a state with no spiking activity to one with prominent theta-nested gamma oscillations. Whether such an effect can be induced in vivo in the context of memory processes remains an open question.”

      2.3. Similarly for the various phase reset behaviors that are found.

      We would like to clarify the fact that the observed phase reset curves (reported in Figure 3D) are a direct consequence of the choice of an appropriate phase response function for the Kuramoto oscillators representing the medial septum. This choice is inspired by experimentally measured phase response curves from CA3 neurons. These aspects are described briefly in the introduction and in more details in the methods, as indicated below:

      L.101: “This new hybrid dynamical model could generate both theta-nested gamma oscillations and theta phase reset, following a particular phase response curve (PRC) inspired by experimental literature (Lengyel et al., 2005; Akam et al., 2012; Torben-Nielsen et al., 2010).”

      L.528-537: “Hereafter, we call the term 𝑍(𝜃) the phase response function, to distinguish it from the PRC obtained from experimental data or simulations (see section below "Data Analysis", "Phase Response Curve"). Briefly, the PRC of an oscillatory system indicates the phase delay or advancement that follows a single pulse, as a function of the phase at which this input is delivered. The phase response function 𝑍(𝜃) was chosen to mimic as well as possible experimental PRCs reported in the literature (Lengyel et al., 2005; Kwag and Paulsen, 2009; Akam et al., 2012). These PRCs appear biphasic and show a phase advancement (respectively delay) for stimuli delivered in the ascending (respectively descending) slope of theta. To accurately model this behavior, we used the following equation for the phase response function, where 𝜃𝑝𝑒𝑎𝑘 represents the phase at which the theta rhythm reaches its maximum and the parameter 𝜙𝑜𝑓𝑓𝑠𝑒𝑡 controls the desired phase offset from the peak:

      Author response image 8.

      On the figure below, we illustrate the phase response curves of CA3 neurons measured by Lengyel et al., 2005 (panel A.), and compare it with our simulated phase response curves (panel B.). Note that the conventions for phase advance and phase delay are reversed between the two panels.

      Finally, we would like to acknowledge that the model “is not derived from experimental phase response curves of septal neurons of which there is no direct measurement”, as mentioned by the reviewer in their comment 4 below. Despite the lack of experimental data specific to medial septum neurons, we argue that this phase response function is the only one that mathematically supports the generation of self-sustained theta-nested gamma oscillations in our current model. This statement is illustrated by Figure S7 (Figure 3 – Figure Supplement 3) and is mentioned in the results (L.249-261 of the revised manuscript):

      We modeled this behavior by a specific term (which we called the phase response function) in the general equation of the Kuramoto oscillators (see methods, Equation 1). Importantly, introducing a phase offset in the phase response function disrupted theta-nested gamma oscillations (Figure S7), which suggests that the septohippocampal circuitry must be critically tuned to be able to generate such oscillations. The strength of phase reset could also be adjusted by a gain that was manually tuned. In the presence of the physiological phase response function and of a sufficiently high reset gain, a single stimulation pulse delivered to all excitatory and inhibitory CA1 neurons could reset the phase of theta to a value close to its peaks (Figure 3A). We computed the PRC of our simulated data for different stimulation amplitudes and validated that our neuronal network behaved according to the phase response function set in our Kuramoto oscillators (Figure 3D). It should be noted that including this phase reset mechanism affected the generated theta rhythm even in the absence of stimulation, extending the duration of the theta peak and thereby slowing down the frequency of the generated theta rhythm.

      Author response image 9.

      Figure S7 (Figure 3 – Figure Supplement 3). Network behavior generated by Kuramoto oscillators with nonphysiological phase response functions. Each panel is similar to Figure 3A, but with a different offset added to the phase response function of the Kuramoto oscillators (see methods, Equation 4). The center frequency was set to 6 Hz in all of these simulations. Overall, theta oscillations in these cases are less sinusoidal and show more abrupt phase changes than in the physiological case. A. A phase offset of −𝜋∕2 leads to an overall theta oscillation of 4 Hz, with a second peak following the main theta peak. B. A phase offset of +𝜋∕2 reduces the peak of theta, resetting the rhythm to the middle of the ascending phase. C. A phase offset of 𝜋 or -𝜋 leads to the CA1 output resetting the theta rhythm to the trough of theta.

      2.4. We may wonder whether a different hippocampal model of TNGO, of which there are many published (for example [1-6]) would show the same effect under neurostimulation. This seems very unlikely […]

      [1] Hyafil A, Giraud AL, Fontolan L, Gutkin B. Neural cross-frequency coupling: connecting architectures, mechanisms, and functions. Trends in neurosciences. 2015 Nov 1;38(11):725-40.

      [2] Tort AB, Rotstein HG, Dugladze T, Gloveli T, Kopell NJ. On the formation of gamma-coherent cell assemblies by oriens lacunosum-moleculare interneurons in the hippocampus. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. 2007 Aug 14;104(33):13490-5.

      [3] Neymotin SA, Lazarewicz MT, Sherif M, Contreras D, Finkel LH, Lytton WW. Ketamine disrupts theta modulation of gamma in a computer model of hippocampus. Journal of Neuroscience. 2011 Aug 10;31(32):11733-43.

      [4] Ponzi A, Dura-Bernal S, Migliore M. Theta-gamma phase-amplitude coupling in a hippocampal CA1 microcircuit. PLOS Computational Biology. 2023 Mar 23;19(3):e1010942.

      [5] Bezaire MJ, Raikov I, Burk K, Vyas D, Soltesz I. Interneuronal mechanisms of hippocampal theta oscillations in a full-scale model of the rodent CA1 circuit. Elife. 2016 Dec 23;5:e18566.

      [6] Chatzikalymniou AP, Gumus M, Skinner FK. Linking minimal and detailed models of CA1 microcircuits reveals how theta rhythms emerge and their frequencies controlled. Hippocampus. 2021 Sep;31(9):982-1002.

      The highlighted publications, while very important in their findings regarding theta-gamma phase-amplitude coupling, focused on specific subfields of the hippocampus. In our work, we aimed to develop a model that includes the different anatomical divisions of the hippocampal formation, while still exhibiting theta-nested gamma oscillations, which is why we decided to expand the model by Aussel et al. (2018). Exploring the behavior of all these different hippocampal models under neurostimulation is beyond the scope of the current manuscript.

      Nevertheless, we have added a new figure (Figure 3 – Figure Supplement 4) showing an adaptation of our modeling approach to a generic neural mass model of theta-nested gamma oscillations (Onslow et al., 2014), which illustrates the generalizability of our findings and is described in details in our response to comment 2.1. Moreover, we have further addressed the comments of the reviewers regarding bistability and phase response curves in our responses to comments 2.2 and 2.3.

      Furthermore, we have added references to all 6 of these publications in the revised version of the manuscript:

      L.43-50: Moreover, the modulation of gamma oscillations by the phase of theta oscillations in hippocampal circuits, a phenomenon termed theta-gamma phase-amplitude coupling (PAC), correlates with the efficacy of memory encoding and retrieval (Jensen and Colgin, 2007; Tort et al., 2009; Canolty and Knight, 2010; Axmacher et al., 2010; Fell and Axmacher, 2011; Lisman and Jensen, 2013; Lega et al., 2016). Experimental and computational work on the coupling between oscillatory rhythms has indicated that it originates from different neural architectures and correlates with a range of behavioral and cognitive functions, enabling the long-range synchronization of cortical areas and facilitating multi-item encoding in the context of memory (Hyafil et al., 2015)."

      L.415-426: “In terms of neuronal cell types, we also made an important simplification by considering only basket cells as the main class of inhibitory interneuron in the whole hippocampal formation. However, it should be noted that many other types of interneurons exist in the hippocampus and have been modeled in various works with higher computational complexity (e.g., Bezaire et al., 2016; Chatzikalymniou et al., 2021). Among these various interneurons, oriens-lacunosum moleculare (OLM) neurons in the CA1 field have been shown to play a crucial role in synchronizing the activity of pyramidal neurons at gamma frequencies (Tort et al., 2007), and in generating theta-gamma PAC (e.g., Neymotin et al., 2011; Ponzi et al., 2023). Additionally, these cells may contribute to the formation of specific phase relationships within CA1 neuronal populations, through the integration between inputs from the medial septum, the EC, and CA3 (Mysin et al., 2019). Future work is needed to include more diverse cell types and detailed morphologies modeled through multiple compartments.”

      2.5. […] and indeed the quiescent state itself shown by this model seems quite artificial.

      We would like to clarify the fact that the “quiescent state” mentioned by the reviewer is a simply a state where the theta input is too low to induce theta-nested gamma oscillations. In this regime, neurons are active only due to the noise term in the membrane potential, which was adjusted based on Figure S3 (Figure 2 – Figure Supplement 2, shown below), at the minimal level needed to disrupt artificial synchronization in decoupled populations. For an input of 0 nA, we acknowledge that this network is indeed fully quiescent (i.e., does not show any spiking activity). However, as soon as the input increases, spontaneous spiking activity starts to appear with an average firing rate that depends on the input amplitude and is characterized by the input-frequency curves (panel A.). Please note that adding more noise could eliminate the observed quiescence in the absence of any input, but that it would not affect qualitatively the reported results.

      Author response image 10.

      Figure S3 (Figure 2 – Supplement 2). Cell-intrinsic spiking activity in decoupled excitatory and inhibitory populations under ramping input. A. Input-Frequency (I-F) curves for excitatory cells (left panel; pyramidal neurons with ICAN) and inhibitory cells (right panel; interneurons, fast-spiking) used in the model. Above a certain tonic input (around 0.35 nA for excitatory and 0.1 nA for inhibitory neurons), neurons can spike in the gamma range. B. Raster plot showing the spiking activity of excitatory (blue, NE = 1000) and inhibitory (red, NI = 100) neurons in decoupled populations under ramping input (top trace) and in the absence of noise in the membrane potential. Despite random initial conditions across neurons, oscillations emerge in both populations due to the intrinsic properties of the cells, with a frequency that is predicted by the respective IF curves (panel A.). C. Similar representation as panel B. but with the addition of stochastic noise in the membrane potential of each neuron. The presence of noise disrupts the emergence of oscillations in these decoupled populations.

      2.6. Some indication that particular ion channels, CAN and M are relevant is briefly provided and the work would be much improved by examining this aspect in more detail.

      We thank the reviewer for acknowledging the importance of these ion channels. We have now added a new supplementary figure (Figure 5 – Figure Supplement 4), which is described in more details in our response to comment 2.2 and illustrates the role of the CAN current in the generation of theta-nested gamma oscillations following a single stimulation pulse. Moreover, we would like to stress that the impact of CAN currents in the ability of the hippocampus to generate theta-nested gamma oscillations intrinsically, i.e., in the absence of persistent external input, has already been investigated in details by a previous computational study cited in our manuscript (Giovannini F, Knauer B, Yoshida M, Buhry L. The CAN-In network: A biologically inspired model for self-sustained theta oscillations and memory maintenance in the hippocampus. Hippocampus. 2017 Apr;809 27(4):450–463).

      2.7. In summary, the work would benefit from an intuitive analysis of the basic model ingredients underlying its neurostimulation response properties.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. By addressing the reviewer’s previous comments (reviewer 2, comments 2.1 and 2.2), which overlap partly with the first reviewer (reviewer 1, comment 3), we believe we have improved the manuscript and have provided key information related to the way the model responds to neurostimulation.

      3..) Third, while the model is fairly realistic, considerable important factors are not included and in fact, there are much more detailed hippocampal models out there (for example [5,6]). In particular, it includes only excitatory cells and a single type of inhibitory cell. This is particularly important since there are many models and experimental studies where specific cell types, for example, OLM and VIP cells, are strongly implicated in TNGO.

      [5] Bezaire MJ, Raikov I, Burk K, Vyas D, Soltesz I. Interneuronal mechanisms of hippocampal theta oscillations in a full-scale model of the rodent CA1 circuit. Elife. 2016 Dec 23;5:e18566.

      [6] Chatzikalymniou AP, Gumus M, Skinner FK. Linking minimal and detailed models of CA1 microcircuits reveals how theta rhythms emerge and their frequencies controlled. Hippocampus. 2021 Sep;31(9):982-1002.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out these interesting avenues for future studies. As indicated in previous responses (reviewer 1, comment 1; reviewer 2, comment 2.4), we have added several paragraphs to discuss these limitations, the rationale behind our simplifications, and potential improvements. In particular, we have added the following paragraphs to discuss our simplifications in terms of connectivity and cell types:

      Anatomical connectivity:

      L.141-150: “Biologically, GABAergic neurons from the medial septum project to the EC, CA3, and CA1 fields of the hippocampus (Toth et al., 1993; Hajós et al., 2004; Manseau et al., 2008; Hangya et al., 2009; Unal et al., 2015; Müller and Remy, 2018). Although the respective roles of these different projections are not fully understood, previous computational studies have suggested that the direct projection from the medial septum to CA1 is not essential for the production of theta in CA1 microcircuits (Mysin et al., 2019). Since our modeling of the medial septum is only used to generate a dynamic theta rhythm, we opted for a simplified representation where the medial septum projects only to the EC, which in turn drives the different subfields of the hippocampus. In our model, Kuramoto oscillators are therefore connected to the EC neurons and they receive projections from CA1 neurons (see methods for more details).”

      Cell types:

      L.415-426: “In terms of neuronal cell types, we also made an important simplification by considering only basket cells as the main class of inhibitory interneuron in the whole hippocampal formation. However, it should be noted that many other types of interneurons exist in the hippocampus and have been modeled in various works with higher computational complexity (e.g., Bezaire et al., 2016; Chatzikalymniou et al., 2021). Among these various interneurons, oriens-lacunosum moleculare (OLM) neurons in the CA1 field have been shown to play a crucial role in synchronizing the activity of pyramidal neurons at gamma frequencies (Tort et al., 2007), and in generating theta-gamma PAC (e.g., Neymotin et al., 2011; Ponzi et al., 2023). Additionally, these cells may contribute to the formation of specific phase relationships within CA1 neuronal populations, through the integration between inputs from the medial septum, the EC, and CA3 (Mysin et al., 2019). Future work is needed to include more diverse cell types and detailed morphologies modeled through multiple compartments.”

      3.2. Other missing ingredients one may think might have a strong impact on model response to neurostimulation (in particular stimulation trains) include the well-known short-term plasticity between different hippocampal cell types and active dendritic properties.

      We agree with the reviewer that plasticity mechanisms are important to include in future work, which we had already mentioned in the limitations section of the manuscript:

      L.436-443: “Importantly, we did not consider learning through synaptic plasticity, even though such mechanisms could drastically modify synaptic conduction for the whole network (Borges et al., 2017). Even more interestingly, the inclusion of spike-timing-dependent plasticity would enable the investigation of stimulation protocols aimed at promoting LTP, such as theta-burst stimulation (Larson et al., 2015). This aspect would be of uttermost importance to make a link with memory encoding and retrieval processes (Axmacher et al., 2006; Tsanov et al., 2009; Jutras et al., 2013) and with neurostimulation studies for memory improvement (Titiz et al., 2017; Solomon et al., 2021).”

      1. Fourth the MS model seems somewhat unsupported. It is modeled as a set of coupled oscillators that synchronize. However, there is also a phase reset mechanism included. This mechanism is important because it underlies several of the phase reset behaviors shown by the full model. However, it is not derived from experimental phase response curves of septal neurons of which there is no direct measurement. The work would benefit from the use of a more biologically validated MS model.

      We would like to confirm that the phase reset mechanism is indeed at the core of using Kuramoto oscillators to model a particular system. For more details about our choice of a phase response function and the obtained results in terms of phase response curves, we refer the reader to our response to comment 2.3.

      Generally speaking, we chose to use Kuramoto oscillators as it is the simplest model that can provide an oscillatory input to another system while including a phase reset mechanism. This set of oscillators was used to replace the fixed sinusoidal wave that represented theta inputs in previous models (Onslow et al., 2014; Aussel et al., 2018; Segneri et al., 2020). Kuramoto oscillators are a well-established model of synchronization in various fields of physics. They have also been used in neuroscience to model the phase reset of collective rhythms (Levnajić et al. 2010), and the effects of DBS on the basal ganglia network in Parkinson’s disease (Tass et al. 2003, Ebert et al. 2014, Weerasinghe et al. 2019).

      More detailed models of the medial septum exist in the literature (e.g., Wang et al. 2002, Hajós et al. 2004) and model the GABAergic effects of the septal projections onto the hippocampal formation. However, it is not trivial to infer the connectivity parameters and the degree of innervation between the hippocampus and the medial septum. Furthermore, the claims made in our study do not necessarily depend on the nature of the projections between the two areas. Therefore, we decided to represent the medial septum in a conceptual way and focus mostly on the effects of these projections rather than replicating them in detail.

      Aussel, Amélie, Laure Buhry, Louise Tyvaert, and Radu Ranta. “A Detailed Anatomical and Mathematical Model of the Hippocampal Formation for the Generation of Sharp-Wave Ripples and Theta-Nested Gamma Oscillations.” Journal of Computational Neuroscience 45, no. 3 (December 2018): 207–21. https://doi.org/10.1007/s10827-018-0704-x.

      Ebert, Martin, Christian Hauptmann, and Peter A. Tass. “Coordinated Reset Stimulation in a Large-Scale Model of the STN-GPe Circuit.” Frontiers in Computational Neuroscience 8 (2014): 154. https://doi.org/10.3389/fncom.2014.00154.

      Hajós, M., W.E. Hoffmann, G. Orbán, T. Kiss, and P. Érdi. “Modulation of Septo-Hippocampal θ Activity by GABAA Receptors: An Experimental and Computational Approach.” Neuroscience 126, no. 3 (January 2004): 599–610. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuroscience.2004.03.043.

      Levnajić, Zoran, and Arkady Pikovsky. “Phase Resetting of Collective Rhythm in Ensembles of Oscillators.” Physical Review E 82, no. 5 (November 3, 2010): 056202. https://doi.org/10.1103/PhysRevE.82.056202.

      Onslow, Angela C. E., Matthew W. Jones, and Rafal Bogacz. “A Canonical Circuit for Generating PhaseAmplitude Coupling.” Edited by Adriano B. L. Tort. PLoS ONE 9, no. 8 (August 19, 2014): e102591. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0102591.

      Segneri, Marco, Hongjie Bi, Simona Olmi, and Alessandro Torcini. “Theta-Nested Gamma Oscillations in Next Generation Neural Mass Models.” Frontiers in Computational Neuroscience 14 (2020). https://doi.org/10.3389/fncom.2020.00047. T ass, Peter A. “A Model of Desynchronizing Deep Brain Stimulation with a Demand-Controlled Coordinated Reset of Neural Subpopulations.” Biological Cybernetics 89, no. 2 (August 1, 2003): 81–88. https://doi.org/10.1007/s00422-003-0425-7.

      Wang, Xiao-Jing. “Pacemaker Neurons for the Theta Rhythm and Their Synchronization in the Septohippocampal Reciprocal Loop.” Journal of Neurophysiology 87, no. 2 (February 1, 2002): 889–900. https://doi.org/10.1152/jn.00135.2001.

      Weerasinghe, Gihan, Benoit Duchet, Hayriye Cagnan, Peter Brown, Christian Bick, and Rafal Bogacz. “Predicting the Effects of Deep Brain Stimulation Using a Reduced Coupled Oscillator Model.” PLoS Computational Biology 15, no. 8 (August 8, 2019): e1006575. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pcbi.1006575.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1:

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The authors themselves propose in their Introduction that the "ECM-associated changes are increasingly perceived as causative, rather than consequential"; however, they have not conducted mechanistic (gain of function/loss of function) studies either in vitro or in vivo from any of their identified targets to truly prove causality. This remains one of the limitations of this study. Thus, future studies should investigate this point in detail. For instance, it would have been intriguing to dissect if knocking out specific genes involved in one specific model or genes common to both would yield distinct phenotypic outcomes.

      We agree with the reviewer that our study does not provide mechanistic verification of the function of identified targets with suggested role in the development and/or resolution of fibrosis. The current study was primarily conducted in order to identify these possible targets with focus on the identification of differences in extracellular matrix deposited in two selected models of liver fibrosis with different modes of action. To conduct further studies using knock-out/in models for verification of causality of proposed targets was at this point well beyond our intention. However, we are fully aware of the potential of identified molecules and further studies to disect their roles in liver diseases are part of future plans.

      (2) The majority of the conclusions are derived primarily from the proteomic analyses. Although well conducted, it would strengthen the study to corroborate some of the major findings by other means such as IHC/IF with the corresponding quantifications and not only representative images.

      We have now provided additional IF images and their quantifications in accordance with the Reviewer’s suggestions to our major MS findings to strenghten the significance of the MS data (see detailed answer below).

      Reviewer #2:

      Weaknesses:

      (1) As it currently stands, the data, whilst extensive, is primarily focussed on the proteomic data which is fairly descriptive and I am not clear on the additional insight gained in their approach that is not already detailed from the extensive transcriptomic studies. The manuscript overall would benefit from some mechanistic functional insight to provide new additional modes of action relevant to fibrosis progression.  

      We agree with the reviewer that our study could initially appear descriptive. However, this characteristics is inherent to most omics studies, which tend to provide hypothesis-free testing of a large number of analytes in order to find a multitude of candidate biomarkers(1). Importantly, we believe our study provides insights that go beyond the scope of previously published transcriptomic analyses.

      Specifically, our work focuses on compartment-specific changes in the liver proteome, with an emphasis on the extracellular matrix (ECM) composition and alterations in protein solubility—features that cannot be captured by transcriptomic studies. The matrisome is more than a structural scaffold; it functions as a reservoir for secreted factors, including growth factors and cytokines, which modulate the local cellular microenvironment. Transition dynamics between the insoluble matrisome and soluble protein pools influence the signaling capabilities and bioavailability of these factors. Moreover, fibrous ECM assemblies directly impact tissue mechanics, providing cells embedded within the matrix with spatially distinct biochemical and biomechanical contexts. The current understanding of matrisome composition in the context of specific liver disease etiologies is limited. Dr. Friedman, in his 2022 review on hepatic fibrosis, highlights the unmet need to elucidate etiology-specific protein signatures of the cirrhotic liver matrisome, which could serve as disease staging or prognostic biomarkers(2). Our study addresses this gap by characterizing the distinct matrisome profiles associated with hepatotoxic- versus cholestasis-driven liver injury. We believe our findings lay the groundwork for identifying etiology-specific biomarkers and potential therapeutic targets for antifibrotic interventions, offering a novel layer of insight beyond what transcriptomic data alone can provide.

      (2) Whilst there is some human data presented it is a minimal analysis without quantification that would imply relevance to disease state. Although studying disease progression in animals is a fundamental aspect of understanding the full physiological response of fibrotic disease, without more human insight makes any analysis difficult to fulfil their suggestion that these targets identified will be of use to treat human disease.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. Our study primarily focuses on utilizing animal models to explore the fundamental physiological processes underlying the development and resolution of fibrotic liver disease. To address the translational relevance of our findings, we concentrated on clusterin, one of the key target proteins identified during our analysis of the insoluble proteome. Specifically, we investigated its localization in human liver samples, focusing on its association with collagen deposits (Figure 6F). To this end, we analyzed human liver samples of diverse etiologies and varying degrees of fibrotic damage, including samples representing four distinct stages of HCV-induced fibrosis (Figure 6F, lower panel). While this analysis highlights the presence and localization of clusterin in fibrotic deposits, we acknowledge that our study does not include extensive quantification or mechanistic insight into clusterin's role in human liver fibrosis. We believe that the data presented in this manuscript provide a valuable foundation for future investigations into clusterin’s involvement in liver fibrosis across different etiologies. Recognizing the translational importance of this work, we have already initiated a prospective study involving human patients, which aims to conduct a more comprehensive analysis of clusterin's function and its potential as a therapeutic target.

      To further support our findings on clusterin's role in fibrosis development and resolution and to address the reviewer's concern, we quantified clusterin deposits in the available human samples representing four distinct stages of HCV-induced fibrotic disease. Using immunofluorescence (IF) images at a 20x field of view, we measured both clusterin and collagen deposits to illustrate changes in clusterin abundance during fibrosis progression (stages F1–F4) in relation to collagen deposition dynamics. The quantified data have been included for the reviewer's consideration (Figure 1). However, it is important to emphasize that this quantification was conducted on a single human sample per fibrotic stage, which limits the statistical robustness of the analysis. A more comprehensive evaluation involving additional patient samples would be necessary for a more definitive conclusion. For this reason, we propose to include these results solely in our rebuttal letter and to incorporate a more extensive analysis in our intended follow-up study, where larger cohorts will allow for a thorough investigation of clusterin's role in human liver fibrosis.

      Author response image 1.

      Dynamics of clusterin abundance with the development of HCV-induced fibrotic disease in comparison to the changes in collagen deposits. IF images of human liver sections from different stages of chronic HCV infection were immunolabeled for clusterin and collagen 1. Clusterin- and collagenpositive (<sup>+</sup>) areas (as %) from three to eight fields of view (20x objective) were evaluated for each fibrosis stage (F1-F4). 

      (3) Some of the terminology is incorrect while discussing these models of injury used and care should be taken. For example - both models are toxin-induced and I do not think these data have any support that the DDC model has a higher carcinogenic risk. An investigation into the tumour-induced risk would require significant additional models. These types of statements are incorrect and not supported by this study.

      We are grateful to the reviewer for drawing our attention to the incorrect use of the term "toxin-induced". In two instances, where the wording was incorrect, we have corrected the term to hepatotoxin-induced as it was originally intended. While we believe that our proteomic signature data and identified signaling pathways suggest a potential carcinogenic risk associated with the cholestatic, but not the hepatotoxic model, we have toned down the statements on this issue in the article to respect the reviewer's perspective. These changes, which are highlighted in the track changes mode of the article, aim to make the conclusions of the study more precise and thus improve the clarity of our conclusions.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      (1) In the Discussion, the authors could consider pointing out that one limitation of the study is a lack of mechanistic (gain of function/loss of function) studies either in vitro or in vivo from any of their identified targets to truly prove causality. 

      As noted earlier, we fully agree with both reviewers that a limitation of this study is its descriptive nature, which is an inherent characteristic of omics-based research. In our manuscript, we aimed to "determine compartment-specific proteomic landscapes of liver fibrosis and delineate etiology-specific ECM components," with the overarching goal of providing a foundation for future antifibrotic therapies.

      The insights gained from our study will indeed serve as a critical basis for subsequent research, where we will prioritize mechanistic investigations to elucidate the roles of the identified targets. While we acknowledge the importance of gain- or loss-of-function studies to establish causality, we believe this falls outside the primary scope of the current manuscript. Instead, we envision these mechanistic approaches as key elements of our future research efforts. For this reason, we feel it is not necessary to further expand on this limitation in the current discussion.

      (2) The majority of the conclusions are derived primarily from the proteomic analyses. Although well conducted, it would strengthen the study to corroborate some of the major findings by other means such as IHC/IF with the corresponding quantifications and not only representative images. For example, the IF stainings for ECM1 should also be quantified - ECM1. 

      To strengthen our MS findings on ECM1 expression and to address the reviewer's concern, we have now included quantification of ECM1 using IF staining at selected time points in Figure S7E and we refer to these data in the Results section (p. 12 of the current manuscript). The IF quantification data correspond well to the MS data showing increase in ECM1 expression with fibrosis development and decline with partial fibrosis resolution.

      (3) S1 - it would be important to show Sirius Red images over the time course, especially for CCl4 T4 where fibrosis resolution is occurring. Proteomics data also show this group clusters more closely with control mice and seeing a representative image would add further credibility to this point. 

      Requsted Sirius Red images are now part of the Figure S1B, documenting partial fibrosis resolution and overall parenchyma healing in T4 in both models.

      (4) How comparable are the periods of the two models? 2 weeks in one model may not be the same as 2 weeks in the other depending on the severity of the pathogenesis. 

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment regarding the comparability of time points between the two models. Indeed, the temporal dynamics of fibrosis development differ between the models employed in our study, and we have carefully considered this aspect to ensure the validity of our comparative analysis. To address this, we started our comparisons at a stage corresponding to the onset of fibrosis in each model. Specifically, quantification of Sirius Red-positive areas, indicative of collagen deposition (Figure S1B), revealed that 2 weeks of DDC treatment produced a comparable extent of fibrosis to that observed after 3 weeks of CCl₄ treatment. This point was designated as the initial fibrosis time point (T1, Figure S1B), from which further treatment was applied to induce more advanced fibrosis. This approach allowed us to standardize the comparison of fibrosis progression between the two models.

      (5) Figure 4A-D - cell-type-specific signatures should be corroborated by actual IHC or IF stainings if possible. HNF4a (hepatocytes), CK19 (cholangiocytes), aSMA (activated fibrogenic HSCs), immune cells (B220, F4/80, Cd11b, CD11c etc).

      We thank the reviewer for this valuable suggestion. To strengthen our analysis, we have now complemented the box plots of cell type-specific signatures derived from the MS data (Figure 4A-D) with immunofluorescence (IF) staining, which has been included in the Supplemental Data (Figure S6). Specifically, we provide representative IF images from control and T1-T4 time points for each model, documenting the changes in abundance with treatment in:

      A) Hepatocytes (HNF4α), activated hepatic stellate cells (αSMA), and cholangiocytes (CK19).

      B) Immune cell populations, including B cells (B220) and macrophages/monocytes/Kupffer cells (F4/80), as these immune cell groups were not only identified in our MS analysis but also have established roles in the selected models(3, 4, 5). 

      The representative images shown in Figure S6 show the dynamics of the cellular populations in each of the models, which correspond well with the MS data (compare Figures 4A-D and S5). These additional data further validate our findings and enhance the robustness of our conclusions.

      References:

      (1) Thiele M, Villesen IF, Niu L, et al. Opportunities and barriers in omics-based biomarker discovery for steatotic liver diseases. J Hepatol 2024;81:345-359.

      (2) Friedman SL, Pinzani M. Hepatic fibrosis 2022: Unmet needs and a blueprint for the future. Hepatology 2022;75:473-488.

      (3) Best J, Verhulst S, Syn WK, et al. Macrophage Depletion Attenuates Extracellular Matrix Deposition and Ductular Reaction in a Mouse Model of Chronic Cholangiopathies. PLoS One 2016;11:e0162286.

      (4) Aoyama T, Inokuchi S, Brenner DA, et al. CX3CL1-CX3CR1 interaction prevents carbon tetrachlorideinduced liver inflammation and fibrosis in mice. Hepatology 2010;52:1390-400.

      (5) Yang W, Chen L, Zhang J, et al. In-Depth Proteomic Analysis Reveals Phenotypic Diversity of Macrophages in Liver Fibrosis. J Proteome Res 2024;23:5166-5176.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The current manuscript focuses on the adenine phosphoribosyltransferase (Aprt) and how the lack of its function affects nervous system function. It puts it into the context of Lesch-Nyhan disease, a rare hereditary disease linked to hypoxanthine-guanine phosphoribosyltransferase (HGPRT). Since HGPRT appears absent in Drosophila, the study focuses initially on Aprt and shows that aprt mutants have a decreased life-span and altered uric acid levels (the latter can be attenuated by allopurinol treatment). Moreover, aprt mutants show defects in locomotor reactivity behaviors. A comparable phenotype can be observed when specifically knocking down aprt in dopaminergic cells. Interestingly, also glia-specific knock-down caused a similar behavioral defect, which could not be restored when re-expressing UAS-aprt, while neuronal re-expression did restore the mutant phenotype. Moreover, mutants, pan-neuronal and pan-neuronal plus glia RNAi for aprt caused sleep-defects. Based on immunostainings Dopamine levels are increased; UPLC shows that adenosine levels are reduced and PCR showed in increase of Ent2 levels are increased (but not AdoR). Moreover, aprt mutants display seizure-like behaviors, which can be partly restored by purine feeding (adenosine and N6methyladenosine). Finally, expression of the human HGPRT also causes locomotor defects.

      The authors provide a wide range of genetic experimental data to assess behavior and some molecular assessment on how the defects may emerge. It is clearly written, and the arguments follow the experimental evidence that is provided. The findings provide a new example of how manipulating specific genes in the fruit fly allows the study of fundamental molecular processes that are linked to a human disease.

      We thank the reviewer for his clear understanding and positive assessment of our work.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The manuscript by Petitgas et al demonstrates that loss of function for the only enzyme responsible for the purine salvage pathway in fruit-flies reproduces the metabolic and neurologic phenotypes of human patients with Lesch-Nyhan disease (LND). LND is caused by mutations in the enzyme HGPRT, but this enzyme does not exist in fruit-flies, which instead only have Aprt for purine recycling. They demonstrate that mutants lacking the Aprt enzyme accumulate uric acid, which like in humans can be rescued by feeding flies allopurinol, and have decreased longevity, locomotion and sleep impairments and seizures, with striking resemblance to HGPRT loss of function in humans. They demonstrate that both loss of function throughout development or specifically in the adult ubiquitously or in all neurons, or dopaminergic neurons, mushroom body neurons or glia, can reproduce the phenotypes (although knock-down in glia does not affect sleep). They show that the phenotypes can be rescued by over-expressing a wild-type form of the Aprt gene in neurons. They identify a decrease in adenosine levels as the cause underlying these phenotypes, as adenosine is a neurotransmitter functioning via the purinergic adenosine receptor in neurons. In fact, feeding flies throughout development and in the adult with either adenosine or m6A could prevent seizures. They also demonstrate that loss of adenosine caused a secondary up-regulation of ENT nucleoside transporters and of dopamine levels, that could explain the phenotypes of decreased sleep and hyperactivity and night. Finally, they provide the remarkable finding that over-expression of the human mutant HGPRT gene but not its wild-type form in neurons impaired locomotion and induced seizures. This means that the human mutant enzyme does not simply lack enzymatic activity, but it is toxic to neurons in some gain-of-function form. Altogether, these are very important and fundamental findings that convincingly demonstrate the establishment of a Drosophila model for the scientific community to investigate LND, to carry out drug testing screens and find cures.

      We thank the reviewer for his clear understanding and positive assessment of our work.

      The experiments are conducted with great rigour, using appropriate and exhaustive controls, and on the whole the evidence does convincingly or compellingly support the claims. The exception is an instance when authors mention 'data not shown' and here data should either be provided, or claims removed: "feeding flies with adenosine or m6A did not rescue the SING phenotype of Aprt mutants (data not shown)". It is important to show these data (see below).

      As recommended by the reviewer, these results are now shown in the new Figure S15.

      Sleep is used to refer to lack of movement of flies to cross a beam for more than 5 minutes. However, lack of movement does not necessarily mean the flies are asleep, as they could be un-motivated to move (which could reflect abnormal dopamine levels) or engaged in incessant grooming instead. These differences are important for future investigation into the neural circuits affect by LND.

      We agree that the method we used could overestimate sleep duration because flies that don't move do not necessarily sleep either, as it is the case with brain-dopamine deficient flies (Riemensperger et al., PNAS 2011). To address this issue, we have recorded video data showing that after 5 min of inactivity, wild-type and Aprt5 mutant flies are less sensitive to stimulation, indicating that they were indeed asleep. This is now shown in the new Figure S10 and mentioned on page 17, lines 338-339 in the main text. In addition, in this work we report that Aprt mutant flies have a nocturnal insomnia phenotype. Sleep overestimation is not, therefore, an issue that could challenge these results.

      The authors claim that based on BLAST genome searchers, there are no HPRTI (encoding HGPRT) homologues in Drosophila. However, such a claim would require instead structure-based searches that take into account structural conservation despite high sequence divergence, as this may not be detected by regular BLAST.

      To reinforce our conclusions about the lack of homologue of the human HPRT1 gene in Drosophila, we have now added a Results section about the evolution of HGPRT proteins on pages 6-7, lines 122150, and two phylogenetic analyses as new Figures S2 and S3 with more details in legends. We have also carried out structural similarity searches against the RCSB PDB repository. The structural analysis did not identify any relevant similarity with HGPRT 3D structures in Insecta (mentioned lines 146-150). We hope these new analyses address the Reviewer's concerns. Furthermore, as shown in Table S2, no enzymatic HGPRT activity could be detected in extracts of wild-type Drosophila. A protein that would be structurally similar to human HGPRT but with a divergent sequence could not be involved in purine recycling without expressing HGPRT-like activity. In contrast, enzymatic Aprt activity could be easily detected in this organism (Figure S4 and Table S1).

      This work raises important questions that still need resolving. For example, the link between uric acid accumulation, reduced adenosine levels, increased dopamine and behavioural neurologic consequences remain unresolved. It is important that they show that restoring uric acid levels does not rescue locomotion nor seizure phenotypes, as this means that this is not the cause of the neurologic phenotypes.

      We agree with the reviewer about the potential importance of our results and the need to resolve the exact origin of the neurological phenotypes. This would need to be addressed in further studies in our opinion. The fact that allopurinol treatment did not improve the locomotor ability of Aprt5 mutant flies is now shown in Figure 1D, E to emphasize this result. Results showing that allopurinol does not rescue the bang-sensitivity phenotype of Aprt-deficient mutants are shown in Figure S14.

      Instead, their data indicate adenosine deficiency is the cause. However, one weakness is that for the manipulations they test some behaviours but not all. The authors could attempt to improve the link between mechanism and behaviour by testing whether over-expression of Aprt in neurons or glia, throughout development or in the adult, and feeding with adenosine and m6A can rescue each of the behavioural phenotypes handled: lifespan, SING, sleep and seizures. The authors could also attempt to knock-down dopamine levels concomitantly with feeding with adenosine or m6A to see if this rescues the phenotypes of SING and sleep.

      The reviewer is right. However, carrying out all these experiments properly with enough repeats will require about two more years of work. Because of that, they could not be included in the revision of the present article. Here we show that Aprt overexpression in neurons, but not in glia, rescues the SING phenotype of Aprt5 mutants (Figure 2B and 2E). We have also added in the revised article the new result that Aprt overexpression reduces transcript levels of DTH1, which codes for the neural form of the dopamine-synthesizing enzyme tyrosine hydroxylase (new Figure 5F).

      Visualising the neural circuits that express the adenosine receptor could reveal why the deficit in adenosine can affect distinct behaviours differentially, and which neurologic phenotypes are primary and which secondary consequences of the mutations. This would allow them to carry out epistasis analysis by knocking-down AdoR in specific circuits, whilst at the same time feeding Aprt mutants with Adenosine.

      Deciphering the specific circuits involved in the various effects of adenosine would indeed be extremely interesting. Unfortunately very few is currently known about the neural circuits that express AdoR in flies. No antibody is available to detect this receptor in situ and mutated AdoR gene coding for a tagged form of the receptor has not been engineered yet to our knowledge.

      The revelation that the mutant form of human HGPRT has toxic effects is very intriguing and important and it invites the community to investigate this further into the future.

      To conclude, this is a fundamental piece of work that opens the opportunity for the broader scientific community to use Drosophila to investigate LND.

      We sincerely thank the reviewer for his thoughtful and positive comments on our work.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      The study attempts to develop a Drosophila model for the human disease of LND. The issue here, and the main weakness of this study, is that Drosophila does not express the enzyme, HGPRT, which when mutated causes LND. The authors, instead, mutate the functionally-related Drosophila Aprt enzyme. However, it is unknown whether Aprt is also a structural homologue. Because of this, it will likely not be possible to identify pharmacological compounds that rescue HGPRT activity via a direct interaction (unless modelling predicts high conservation of substrate binding pocket between the two enzymes, etc).

      As stated in our Provisional Responses prior to revision of the Reviewed Preprint, the enzymes APRT and HGPRT are actually known to be functionally and structurally related. We apologize for not providing this information in the original submission. This point is now made clearer in the revised article on page 39, lines 785-792. Indeed, both human APRT and HGPRT belong to the type I PRTases family identified by a conserved phosphoribosyl pyrophosphate (PRPP) binding motif, which is used as a substrate to transfer phosphoribosyl to purines. This binding motif is only found in PRTases from the nucleotide synthesis and salvage pathways (see: Sinha and Smith (2001) Curr Opin Struct Biol 11(6):733-9, doi: 10.1016/s0959-440x(01)00274-3). The purine substrates adenine, hypoxanthine and guanine share the same chemical skeleton and APRT can bind hypoxanthine, indicating that APRT and HGPRT also share similarities in their substrate binding sites (Ozeir et al. (2019) J Biol Chem. 294(32):11980-11991, doi: 10.1074/jbc.RA119.009087). Moreover, Drosophila Aprt and Human APRT are closely related as the amino acid sequences of APRT proteins have been highly conserved throughout evolution (see Figure S5B in our paper).

      An additional weakness is that the study does not identify a molecule that may act as a lead compound for further development for treating LND. Rather, the various rescues reported are selective for only a subset of the disease-associated phenotypes. Thus, whilst informative, this first section of the study does not meet the study ambitions.

      In this study, we identify adenosine and N6-methyladenosine as rescuers of the epileptic behavior in Aprt mutant flies (shown in Figure 7E, F). Interestingly, the same molecules have been found to rescue the viability of fibroblasts and neural stem cells derived from iPSCs of LND patients, in which de novo purine synthesis was prevented (discussed on page 38, lines 747-753). This suggests that the Drosophila model reported here could help to identify new genetic targets and pharmacological compounds capable to rescue HGPRT mutations in humans.

      The second approach adopted is to express a 'humanised mutated' form of HGPRT in Drosophila, which holds more promise for the development of a pharmacological screen. In particular, the locomotor defect is recapitulated but the seizure-like activity, whilst reported as being recapitulated, is debatable. A recovery time of 2.3 seconds is very much less than timings for typical seizure mutants. Nevertheless, the SING behaviour could be sufficient to screen against. However, this is not explored.

      We agree with the reviewer that it would be very interesting to do a pharmacological screen in this second LND model. However, we did not have the possibility to carry out such a screen yet.

      In summary, this is a largely descriptive study reporting the behavioural effects of an Aprt loss-offunction mutation. RNAi KD and rescue expression studies suggest that a mix of neuronal (particularly dopaminergic and possibly adenosinergic signalling pathways) and glia are involved in the behavioural phenotypes affecting locomotion, sleep and seizure. There is insufficient evidence to have confidence that the Arpt fly model will prove valuable for understanding / treating LND.

      Here we report many common phenotypes between the Aprt fly model and the symptoms of LND patients (reduced longevity, locomotor problems, sleep defects, overproduction of uric acid that is rescued by allopurinol treatment…). Moreover, APRT and HGPRT enzymes are both functional and structural homologues, as explained in our answers. We also found that the same drugs can rescue the seizure-like phenotype in Aprt-deficient flies and the viability of LND fibroblasts and neural stem cells, derived from iPSCs of LND patients, in which de novo purine synthesis is prevented (Figure 7E, F). In many respects, our results therefore suggest that Aprt mutant flies could be useful to better understand LND, and potentially to screen for new therapeutic compounds.

      From the Reviewing Editor:

      (1) How are the pathways of purine catabolism different between flies and mammals? How does the absence of HGPRT and presence of only AGPRT affect purine catabolism? When did HGPRT appear in evolution?

      Purine catabolism is quite similar in flies and mammals, except for the lack of urate oxidase in primates, as described in Figure S1. We added words in the revised article about purine anabolism/catabolism pathways lines 123-126 (see below our detailed response to Reviewer 1’s Recommandations). HGPRT is present in Bacteria, Archea and Eukaryota, and nearly all animal phyla. However, BLAST search indicates that HGPRT homologues cannot be found in most insect species, such as Drosophila. To reinforce our conclusions about the lack of homologue of the human HPRT1 gene in Drosophila melanogaster, we have now added a Results section about the evolution of HGPRT proteins on pages 6-7, lines 122-150, and two phylogenetic analyses as new Figures S2 and S3 with details in legends.

      In addition to BLAST a structural based modelling method should be used to establish the loss of HGPRT in Drosophila.

      In agreement with the phylogenetic analyses, we have confirmed that no HGPRT enzymatic activity can be detected in wild-type Drosophila extract (Table S2). To complete these observations, as recommended by reviewer #2, we have carried out 3D structure-based searches in the RCSB Protein Data Bank. This enabled us to compare human HGPRT with all currently available protein structures. W found no Drosophila protein with a divergent sequence showing relevant structural similarity to human HGPRT. In contrast, this search identified proteins similar to human HGPRT in many other species of Eukaryota, Archea and Bacteria. This is now mentioned on page 7, lines 146-150 in the revised article.

      (2) Of the three biochemical changes reported the change in dopamine levels should be validated by other methods given the unreliable nature of IHC.

      As recommended by Reviewer #1, we have added the results of new experiments carried out by RTqPCR and Western blotting, which confirm the effect of Aprt mutation on brain dopamine levels. In addition, we added the consistent result that Aprt overexpression reduces transcript levels of DTH1. The results are shown in the new panels E to H of Figure 5 and mentioned in the text on page 20, lines 385-389.

      (3) As suggested by reviewer 2 it would be helpful to clearly identify which of the three biochemical changes (DA, uric acid, adenosine) are responsible for the numerous behaviours tested. This is important because it is relevant for developing any therapeutic strategy arising from this study.

      We agree that it would be very interesting to decipher the relationship between the different behaviors observed in mutant flies and the biochemical changes (dopamine, uric acid or adenosine). However, this would require a large amount of new experiments and it would probably double the size of our paper, which already includes many original data. In our opinion, such a detailed study should logically be the purpose of another article.

      (4) There is concern regarding the robustness of the seizure data. Reviewer 3 has suggestions on how to address this.

      See our answers to Reviewer 3’s recommendations below.

      (5) Editorial corrections and changes suggested by reviewers 2 and 3 need to be addressed.

      As indicated in our answers, we have taken into account and when possible addressed the corrections and changes suggested by the reviewers.

      (6) It is recommended that the authors tone down the relevance of this model for LND, particularly in the abstract. The focus should be on stating what is actually delivered.

      As recommended by the reviewing editor, and to take in account the reserved comments of reviewer #3, we have toned down our affirmation that our new fly models are relevant for LND in the last sentences of the Abstract and Discussion, and also added a question mark in the subtitle of the Discussion on line 777. As mentioned in our provisional responses to the Public Reviews, we would like to emphasize, however, that reviewers #1 and #2 expressed more confidence than reviewer #3 in the potential usefulness of our work. Reviewer #1 indeed stated that: “The findings provide a new example of how manipulating specific genes in the fruit fly allows the study of fundamental molecular processes that are linked to a human disease”, and reviewer #2 further wrote: "Altogether, these are very important and fundamental findings that convincingly demonstrate the establishment of a Drosophila model for the scientific community to investigate LND, to carry out drug testing screens and find cures”, and added: “To conclude, this is a fundamental piece of work that opens the opportunity for the broader scien2fic community to use Drosophila to inves2gate LND”.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      • An important prerequisite for the current study is that there appears to be no HGPRT "activity" in Drosophila. It is initially stated that there was previously no "HGPRT activity observed" in two papers form the 70ies. It would be important to corroborate this notion and provide some background on the <br /> /catabolism pathways. How shared or divergent are these pathways between Drosophila and mammals?

      In agreement with the pioneering studies of Becker (1974a, b), we have confirmed in this work that no HGPRT enzymatic activity can be detected in wild-type Drosophila extracts, as mentioned in Results on page 6, lines 127-130 and reported in Table S2. Purine catabolism is quite similar in flies and mammals, except for the lack of urate oxidase in primates, as shown in Figure S1. All the enzymes involved in purine anabolism/catabolim or recycling in humans have been conserved in Drosophila and humans, with the notorious exception of HPRT1.

      If there is no HGPRT gene, but only the APRT ortholog, what would this mean for the metabolites? Our enzymatic assays on Drosophila extracts indicated that hypoxanthine and guanine cannot be recycled into IMP and GMP, respectively, contrary to adenine which can be converted into AMP in flies. In the absence of HGPRT activity, GMP and IMP could be produced by de novo purine synthesis, or, alternatively, synthesized from AMP, which can be converted into IMP by the enzyme AMPD, and then IMP can be converted into GMP by the enzymes IMPDH and GMPS. These metabolic pathways are depicted in Figure S1A.

      Is the lack of HGPRT specific for Drosophila, insects (generally in invertebrates)? I feel clarifying this would provide more insight into the motivation of the experimental approach.

      As suggested by the Reviewer and the Reviewing Editor, we have addressed the evolution of HGPRT proteins more precisely in the revision. We have added a section on this subject in Results on pages 67, lines 122-150, and two phylogenetic analyses as Figures S2 and S3 with details in legends. A phylogenetic analysis was carried out a few years ago by Giorgio Matassi, who is now co-author of this paper. The most striking result was the great impact of horizontal gene transfer in the evolution of HGPRT in Insects (Figures S2 and S3). Our analysis of the phyletic distribution of HGPRT proteins revealed their striking rareness in Insecta, and in particular, their absence in Drosophilidae. The PSIBlast search detected however a significant hit in Drosophila immigrans (accession KAH8256851.1). Yet, this sequence is 100% identical to the HGPRT of the Gammaroteobacterium Serratia marcescens. Indeed, a phylogenetic analysis showed that D. immigrans HGPRT clusters with the Serratia genus (see Figure S3). This can be interpreted either a contamination of the sequenced sample, or as a very recent horizontal gene transfer event. The second scenario is more likely for the corresponding nucleotide sequences differ by 5 synonymous substitutions (out of 534 positions). A powerful approach to try to understand the "origin" of the D. immigrans protein would be to analyze whether horizontal gene transfer has affected its chromosomal neighbours. This approach, proposed previously by G. Matassi (BMC Evol Biol, 2017, 17:2, doi: 10.1186/s12862-016-0850-6), is highly demanding in terms of computing time and would require an ad hoc study. We hope that these new analyses address the Reviewer's concerns.

      • On the mechanistic side on how the behavioral defects may arise, the authors show that dopaminergic neurons (and glia cells) are involved. One interesting finding is that dopamine immunostainings suggest increased dopamine levels. However, immunostainings are notorious for artifacts and do not provide a strong quantitative assessment. I feel it would be helpful to have an alternative technique to corroborate this finding.

      We agree with the reviewer and we added the results of further confirmatory experiments in the four new panels E-H of Figure 5, showing that: 1) the transcript levels of DTH1 (encoding the neuronal isoform of the dopamine-synthesizing enzyme tyrosine hydroxylase in Drosophila) are increased in Aprt5 mutants compared to wild-type flies (new Figure 5E), 2) consistent with this, DTH1 transcript levels were found in contrast to be decreased when Aprt was overexpressed ubiquitously in flies (new Figure 5F), 3) Western blot experiments showed that DTH1 protein levels are also increased in Aprt5 mutant flies compared to controls (new Figure 5G-H).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      As mentioned in the public review, the behavioural phenotypes of decreased lifespan, SING, sleep and seizures could be tested for all manipulations: feeding with allopurinol, adenosine and m6A, and combining this with knock-down dopamine levels in PAMs or MBs. This could help dissect the relationship between mutations in Aprt and behaviour.

      We thank the reviewer for these suggestions, and, indeed, we would have liked to do all these experiments. However, as mentioned in our responses to the Public Reviews, carrying out these experiments properly with sufficient repeats would require about two more years of work. We have already accumulated a large amount of data, so we have decided to publish our results at this stage in order to make our new fly models available to the scientific community. We are giving careful and due consideration to these experimental proposals and we hope to continue our investigation on this topic in the future.

      It would also be helpful to find out which neurons and glia express AdoR. Perhaps there are already tools available the authors could test or at least check with the scRNAseq Fly Atlas (public Scope database).

      Following the reviewer’s recommendation, we have checked the scRNAseq Fly Atlas for AdoR expression in the brain, compared to that of ple (encoding tyrosine hydroxylase) and Eaat1 (encoding the astrocytic glutamate transporter). As shown in the image below, the results are not very informative. AdoR appears to be expressed in rather widespread subsets of neurons and glial cells, that partly overlap with ple and Eaat1 expression. Further work would be required to identify more precisely the neurons and glial cells expressing AdoR in the brain.

      Author response image 1.

      Page 7, line 161: use of the word 'normalize'. "We tried to normalise uric acid content in flies..." would best to use 'rescue' instead, as normalisation in science has a different meaning.

      We modified this word as suggested.

      Page 9 line 203: 'genomic deficiencies that cover': the genetic term is 'uncover', as a deficiency for a locus reveals a phenotypes, thus it is said 'a gene uncovered by xx deficiency".

      Thank you for this helpful remark. We corrected this in line 221.

      Page 10, lines 206-208: 'allopurinol treatment did not improve the locomotor activity...". These are important observations that should be best presented within the main manuscript Figure 1.

      As recommended, we have transferred the graphs of Figure S5 to new panels D and E of Figure 1.

      Figure 4: please indicate genotypes in the figure, where no information is given that these are UASAprt-RNAi experiments.

      We added the complete genotype in Figure 4G, and also in Figure S12C and D. Thank you for noting that.

      Page 25 line 491: "None of these drugs was able to rescue the SING defects (data not shown)". Either provide the data or remove this claim.

      We have added these data in the new Figure S15.

      Statistical analyses: details are provided in the methods, but the name of test and multiple comparisons corrections should be also provided in the legends.

      Thank you very much for the careful proofreading. This was an oversight and we have added the information in all legends of the revised article.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      This is a difficult manuscript to appreciate. The abstract and introduction suggest that the study is to identify novel treatments for a human disease (LND) by development of a Drosophila model. Much of the results, however, are focussed to describing the consequences to purine metabolism of the Aprt mutation. To my mind, a rewrite to focus on the latter would be beneficial. The potential applicability to LND would be best restricted to the discussion.

      We apologize for not making our goals clearer. Our purpose was to find out if purine recycling deficiency could lead to metabolic and neurobehavioral disturbances in Drosophila, as it is the case in human LND patients when HGPRT is mutated. Interestingly, we observed that mutation of the only purine recycling enzyme in flies, Aprt, did induce defects in part comparable to that of LND in humans, including overproduction of uric acid that is rescued by allopurinol treatment, reduced longevity, and various neurobehavioral phenotypes including bang-sensitive seizure, sleep defects and locomotor impairments. We also identified adenosine and N6-methyladenosine as rescuers of the epileptic behavior in these mutants. These drugs were also identified as therapeutic candidates in screens based on iPSCs from LND patients. This suggests that Aprt deficiency in Drosophila could be used as a model to better understand this disease and find new therapeutic targets.

      Regardless of the above comment, the concluding sentence of the abstract is inappropriate. This study does not show that Drosophila can be used to identify a cure for LND.

      We agree with the Reviewer that the last sentence of the abstract was too affimative. As also recommended by the reviewing editor, we have modified this sentence in the abstract and other sentences in the text in order to tone down the affirmation that our new fly models are relevant for LND. See our answers to the Reviewing Editor above for details.

      Indeed, I would challenge the premise that screening against a functional, but unknown if structural, homologue (Aprt) will ever provide an exploitable opportunity. To meet this statement, this study needs to identify a treatment that rescues all of the behavioural phenotypes associated with the Aprt mutation, in addition to rescuing the influences of the mis-expression of mutated HGPRT.

      APRT and HGPRT are both functionally and structurally related. Both human APRT and HGPRT belong to the type I PRTases family identified by a conserved phosphoribosyl pyrophosphate (PRPP) binding motif, which is used as a substrate to transfer phosphoribosyl to purines. This binding motif is only found in PRTases from the nucleotide synthesis and salvage pathways (see: Sinha and Smith (2001) Curr Opin Struct Biol 11(6):733-9733-9, doi: 10.1016/s0959-440x(01)00274-3). The purine substrates adenine, hypoxanthine and guanine share the same chemical skeleton and APRT can bind hypoxanthine, indicating that APRT and HGPRT also share similarities in their substrate binding sites (Ozeir et al. (2019) J Biol Chem. 294(32): 11980-11991, doi: 10.1074/jbc.RA119.009087)). This point has been made clearer in the Discussion page 39, in lines 785-792.. Finally, Drosophila Aprt and Human APRT are closely related as the amino acid sequences of APRTs have been highly conserved throughout evolution (shown in Figure S5B).

      With respect to expression of the mutated HGPRT: the short seizure recovery time of 2.3 seconds is not very convincing evidence of a seizure phenotype. This is far below the timings reported for typical BS mutations. Because of this, the authors should run a positive control (e.g. one of the wellestablished BS mutations: parabss, eas or jus) to validate their assay. Moreover, was the seizure induced by the Aprt mutation (17.3 secs - again a low value) rescued by prior exposure to an antiepileptic? Could this behaviour be, instead, related to the SING locomotor phenotype?

      The assay we used to test for bang-sensitivity has been validated in previous articles from different laboratories. We agree that the recovery times we observed were shorter than those of the BS mutations mentioned by the reviewer. However, we could cite another Drosophila BS mutant, porin, that shows similarly short recovery times (2.5 and 6 sec, according to the porin alleles tested, Graham et al. J Biol Chem. 2010, doi: 10.1074/jbc.M109.080317). This is now mentioned on page 36 lines 717-720). In addition, the BS phenotype we observed with Aprt mutants was robust and highly significant compared to control flies (Figure 7). We did not try to rescue this phenotype by exposing the flies to an antiepileptic, but we do not think that it can be related to the SING phenotype. Indeed, providing adenosine or N6-methyladenosine to Aprt5 mutant flies was able to rescue the BS phenotype (Figure 7E, F), but did not rescue the locomotor defects (new Figure S15). Moreover, SING performances of Aprt5 mutant flies at 8 or 30 d a. E. are decreased nearly in almost identical way (Figure 1C), while we observed an effect on BS behavior at 30 d a. E., which implies that the SING and BS behaviors are most likely unrelated.

      Line 731 states that 'Aprt mutants show a typical BS phenotype' - whilst accurate to some extent (e.g. the behaviour depicted in the supp videos), it should be made clear, it should be made clear that the recovery time is uncharacteristically short and thus differs from typical BS mutations.

      We have corrected the sentence in the revised article to mention that (page 36, lines 717-718).

      Line 732 stating that BS phenotype is often linked to neuronal activity - what other links would there be? Even if via glia or other tissues the final effect is via neurons.

      We have modified this sentence (page 36, line 720).

      The introduction and, particularly, the discussion are overly long and, in the case of the latter, repetitive of the results text. Pruning to make the paper more concise would be very beneficial. Removal of the extensive speculation about how DA and adenosine may interact would help in this regard (line 688 onwards). Indeed, in many places the discussion morphs into a review.

      We agree with the reviewer on this point, and have therefore done our best to shorten the Introduction and Discussion, which are now 24% and 21% shorter, respectively, in the revised article compared to the original submission.

      The applicability of using Drosophila Aprt mutations to screen for compounds that may treat LND is predicated on some degree of similarity in either enzyme structure or metabolic pathways. A discussion of how relevant, therefore, studying Aprt is needs to be included. Given the authors insights - where should potential new rugs be targeted to?

      As stated above, we now mention in the article that APRT and HGPRT share similarities in their structure. In addition, the metabolic pathways between humans and Drosophila have been largely conserved (shown in Figure S1B).

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Response to review.

      We thank the editors and reviewers for their time in assessing our manuscript. We changed the title to remove the word “all” because we realized that was hyperbolic. Corrections in response to review are in blue text throughout the manuscript document (other minor corrections are not highlighted).

      eLife assessment

      This study presents valuable insights into the evolution of the gasdermin family, making a strong case that a GSDMA-like gasdermin was already present in early land vertebrates and was activated by caspase-1 cleavage. Convincing biochemical evidence is provided that extant avian, reptile, and amphibian GSDMA proteins can still be activated by caspase-1 and upon cleavage induce pyroptosis-like cell death - at least in human cell lines. The caspase-1 cleavage site is only lost in mammals, which use the more recently evolved GSDMD as a caspase-1 cleavable pyroptosis inducer. The presented work will be of considerable interest to scientists working on the evolution of cell death pathways, or on cell death regulation in non-mammalian vertebrates.

      We thank the editor for their time in evaluating our manuscript. We agree with the eLife assessment and with the comments of the reviewers.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors start out by doing a time-calibrated gene/species tree analysis of the animal gasdermin family, resulting in a dendrogram showing the relationship of the individual gasdermin subfamilies and suggesting a series of gene duplication events (and gene losses) that lead to the gasdermin distribution in extant species. They observe that the GSDMA proteins from birds, reptiles, and amphibians do not form a clade with the mammalian GSDMAs and notice that the non-mammalian GSDMA proteins share a conserved caspase-1 cleavage motif at the predicted activation site. The authors provide several series of experiments showing that the non-mammalian GSDMA proteins can indeed be activated by caspase-1 and that this activation leads to cell death (in human cells). They also investigate the role of the caspase-1 recognition tetrapeptide for cleavage by caspase-1 and for the pathogen-derived protease SpeB.

      We thank the reviewer for their time in evaluating our manuscript.

      Strengths:

      The evolutionary analysis performed in this manuscript appears to use a broader data basis than what has been used in other published work. An interesting result of this analysis is the suggestion that GSDMA is evolutionarily older than the main mammalian pyroptotic GSDMD, and that birds, reptiles, and amphibians lack GSDMD but use GSDMA for the same purpose. The consequence that bird GSDMA should be activated by an inflammatory caspase (=caspase1) is convincingly supported by the experiments provided in the manuscript.

      We thank the reviewer for their assessment of the manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      1. As a non-expert in phylogenetic tree reconstruction, I find the tree resulting from the authors' analysis surprising (in particular the polyphyly of GSDMA) and at odds with several other published trees of this family. The differences might be due to differences in the data being used or due to the tree construction method, but no explanation for this discrepancy is provided.

      We agree, and we have modified the text to add more context to explain why our analysis generated a different topology: “In comparison to previously published studies, we used different methods to construct our gasdermin phylogenetic tree, with the result that our tree has a different topology. The topology of our tree is likely to be affected by our increased sampling of gasdermin sequences; we included 1,256 gasdermin sequences in comparison to 300 or 97 sequences used in prior studies. Prior studies used maximum likelihood tree building techniques, whereas we used a more computationally intensive Bayesian method using BEAST with strict molecular clocks that allows us to provide divergence time estimates, which we calibrated using mammal fossil estimated ages. We think that this substantially increased sampling paired with time calibration allow us to produce a more accurate phylogeny of the gasdermin protein family.”

      To explain and further support our method in a more technical manner, in our phylogenetic tree, non-mammal GSDMAs are paralogous to mammals GSDMAs whereas others have found that non-mammal GSDMAs are orthologous to mammal GSDMAs. We obtained moderate support for the non-mammal GSDMA placement with Bayesian posterior 0.42 and with maximum likelihood bootstrap support of 0.96. Angosto-Bazarra et al. has for their placement a Bayesian posterior of 0.66 and maximum likelihood bootstrap support of 0.98. These are good results, but they arise from significantly fewer sequences than are included in our tree. However, in Fig S2 of Angosto-Bazarra et al. the support drops to 0.08. That the posteriors in both are not 1 indicate the presence of phylogenetic conflicts (i.e., a significant fraction of alternative trees), which means that the tree of our study or Angosto-Bazarra could be incorrect. That said, our tree is supported by biological support, and our dataset is substantially larger. To better characterize this node, further sampling with even more species would be required. We exhausted the current available sequences at the time our tree was generated.

      Differences between our study and previous studies:

      Author response table 1.

      1. While the cleavability of bird/reptile GSDMA by caspase-1 is well-supported by several experiments, the role of this cleavage for pyroptotic cell killing is addressed more superficially. One cell viability assay upon overexpression of GSDMA-NTD in human HEK293 cells is shown and one micrograph shows pyroptotic morphology upon expression in HeLa cells. It is not clear why these experiments were limited to human cells…

      We did include one more experiment in human cells which is Figure 4B, in which we express full length chicken GSDMA with dimerizable caspase-1, and show that LDH release requires the cleavage site aspartate, D244. That said, we agree that our use of only human cell lines is a weakness of the paper. We thought that the best way to definitively show the interaction of caspase-1 and GSDMA was to perform experiments in chicken macrophages. Therefore, we generated a custom-raised anti-chicken-GSDMA antibody. Unfortunately, the quality of the antibody was insufficient to detect endogenous GSDMA in chicken bone marrow-derived macrophages. Off target binding prevented the observation of chicken GSDMA bands. We added a section to the discussion acknowledge the need for further studies: “In future studies, the association of bird/amphibian/reptile GSDMA and caspase-1 should be confirmed in native cells from each of these animals.”

      …and why two different cell types were used for the two complementary results.

      In the paper we used 293T cells and HeLa cells as generic cell types that have distinct benefits. In general, we used 293T/17 cells for experiments where high transfection efficiency was most critical, as it is simple to achieve 90% or higher transfection efficiency in this line. However, 293T/17s have poor spreading in culture and thus are not as useful for morphologic studies. 293T/17 cells do display pyroptotic ballooning upon gasdermin activation, however, the images are less pronounced in comparison to other cell types that have more distinct morphology. Therefore, we used HeLa cells for the microscopy experiments because they are more adherent and larger than 293T/17s which make for easier visualization of pyroptotic ballooning. We have added the following statement to the text to make our rationale for the use of different cell line more apparent: “In these experiments, 293T/17s were used for their high transfection efficiency, and HeLas were used for microscopy studies for their larger size and improved adherence.”

      1. The introduction mentions as a motivation for this work our lack of knowledge of how human GSDMA is activated. This is indeed an interesting and pressing question, but it is not really addressed in the manuscript. This is particularly true when believing the authors' dendrogram results that the bird and mammalian GSDMA families do not form a clade.

      As a consequence, the significance of this finding is mostly limited to birds and reptiles.

      Our aspirations were to discover hidden facets of mammal GSDMA by using a molecular evolutionary analysis. bird/amphibian/reptile GSDMA. Although we did not learn the identity of a host protease that activates mammalian GSDMA, we serendipitously discovered the evolutionary history of the association of caspase-1 with the gasdermin family. We think this manuscript provides an important and interesting advance in the field to reveal the process of evolution at work in the gasdermin family, and that the association of caspase-1 with a gasdermin to cause pyroptosis is an unbroken pairing throughout evolution. It is surprising to us that the specific gasdermin partner has changed over time.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors investigated the molecular evolution of members of the gasdermin (GSDM) family. By adding the evolutionary time axis of animals, they created a new molecular phylogenetic tree different from previous ones. The analyzed result verified that non-mammalian GSDMAs and mammalian GSDMAs have diverged into completely different and separate clades. Furthermore, by biochemical analyses, the authors demonstrated non-mammalian GSDMA proteins are cleaved by the host-encoded caspase-1. They also showed mammalian GSDMAs have lost the cleavage site recognized by caspase-1. Instead, the authors proposed that the newly appeared GSDMD is now cleaved by caspase-1.

      We thank the reviewer for their time in evaluating our manuscript.

      Through this study, we have been able to understand the changes in the molecular evolution of GSDMs, and by presenting the cleavage of GSDMAs through biochemical experiments, we have become able to grasp the comprehensive picture of this family of molecules. However, there are some parts where explanations are insufficient, so supplementary explanations and experiments seem to be necessary.

      Strengths:

      It has a strong impact in advancing ideas into the study of pyroptotic cell death and even inflammatory responses involving caspase-1.

      We thank the reviewer for the critical consideration of the phylogeny presented.

      Weaknesses:

      Based on the position of mammalian GSDMA shown in the molecular phylogenetic tree (Figure 1), it may be difficult to completely agree with the authors' explanation of the evolution of GSDMA.

      1. Focusing on mammalian GSDMA, this group, and mammalian GSDMD diverged into two clades, and before that, GSDMA/D groups and mammalian GSDMC separated into two, more before that, GSDMB, and further before that, non-mammalian GSDMA, when we checked Figure 1. In the molecular phylogenetic tree, it is impossible that GSDMA appears during evolution again. Mammalian GSDMAs are clearly paralogous molecules to non-mammalian GSDMAs in the figure. If they are bona fide orthologous, the mammalian GSDMA group should show a sub-clade in the non-mammalian GSDMA clade. It is better to describe the plausibility of the divergence in the molecular evolution of mammalian GSDMA in the Discussion section.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s careful consideration of our phylogeny. We agree that we did not make this clear enough in the discussion. Indeed, this is a confusing point, and is a critical concept in the paper. This is among our most important findings, so we have added a line addressing this finding to the abstract. We think about these concepts starting from the oldest common ancestor of a group, and then think about how genes duplicate over time. To the discussion we now begin with the following:

      We discovered that GSDMA in amphibians birds and reptiles are paralogs to mammal GSDMA. Surprisingly, the GSDMA genes in both the amphibians/reptiles/birds and mammal groups appear in the exact same locus. Therefore, this GSDMA gene was present in the common ancestor of all these animals. In mammals, this GSDMA duplicated to form GSDMB and GSDMC. Finally, a new gene duplicate, GSDMD, arose in a different chromosomal location. Then this GSDMD gene became a superior target for caspase-1 after developing the exosite. Once GSDMD had evolved, we speculate that the mammalian GSDMA became a pseudogene that was available to evolve a new function. This new function included a new promoter to express mammalian GSDMA primarily in the skin, and perhaps acquisition of a new host protease that has yet to be discovered.

      In further support of the topology of our Bayesian tree in Figure 1, we also performed a maximum likelihood analysis, which also placed the GSDMA genes into similarly distinct clades (Figure 1-S3). Finally, we have biological evidence to support this reasoning, where caspase-1 cleaves non-mammal GSDMAs and also mammal GSDMD (and no longer can cleave mammal GSDMA).

      1. Regarding (1), it is recommended that the authors reconsider the validity of estimates of divergence dates by focusing on mammalian species divergence. Because the validity of this estimation requires a recheck of the molecular phylogenetic tree, including alignment.

      Our reconstructed evolution of gasdermins is consistent with the mammal tree of life. We constrained Bayesian estimation of divergences using soft calibrations from mammal fossil estimated ages. We have included the fossil calibration of mammalian gasdermins to the results section and to our methods.

      1. If GSDMB and/or GSDMC between non-mammalian GSDMA and mammalian GSDMD as shown in the molecular phylogenetic tree would be cleaved by caspase-1, the story of this study becomes clearer. The authors should try that possibility.

      It is known that mammal GSDMB and GSDMC cannot be activated by caspase-1. We propose that GSDMA was cleaved by caspase-1 only in extinct mammals that had not yet associated GSDMD with caspase-1. Such an extinct mammal could have encoded a GSDMA cleaved by caspase-1, a GSDMB cleaved by granzyme A, and GDSMC cleaved by caspase-8. Later, the GSDMA gene was again duplicated to form GSDMD. After GSDMD was targeted by caspase-1, then GSDMA was free to gain its current function in barrier tissues.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      As a non-expert on phylogenetic tree construction, I found the "time-calibrated maximum clade credibility coalescent tree" hard to digest. I would have liked to see an explanation of how this method is different from what has been used before and why the authors consider it to be better. This is particularly important when considering that the resulting tree shown in Figure 1 is quite different from other published trees of the same family (e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8742441 where the GSDMA family appears monophyletic).

      Please see response to Reviewer 1 weaknesses above. Also, we have moved the text “time-calibrated maximum clade credibility coalescent tree” to the figure legend.

      In the bioinformatical analysis of the conserved caspase-1 cleavage motif in bird GSDMA sequences, I would recommend also addressing the residue behind the cleavage site Asp, as this position has an unusually high conservation (mostly Gly) in bird GSDMA.

      This is a great observation. We suspect that this may reflect a need for flexibility in the secondary structure to allow the cleavage site to enter the enzymatic pocket of the caspase. This residue is also similarly enriched in mammal GSDMD, which is also cleaved by caspase-1. We also note high conservation of a P2' proline residue in birds with the FASD tetrapeptide, which could also be important for displaying the tetrapeptide to the caspase.

      This comment prompted us to search the literature for evidence of these residues in caspase-1 substrate preference studies. Remarkably, a P1' glycine and P2` proline are among the most enriched residues in human caspase-1 targets. This supports our hypothesis that caspase-1 cleaves GSDMA in non-mammals. We added the following to the results section: “Additionally, the P1' residue in amphibian, bird and reptile GSDMA was often a glycine, and the P2' residue was often a proline, especially in birds with FASD/FVSD tetrapeptides (Fig. 2B). A small P1' residue is preferred by all caspases. By using a peptide library, glycine has been determined to be the optimal P1' residue for caspase-1 and caspase-4. Further, in a review of the natural substrates of caspase-1, glycine was the second most common P1' residue, and proline was the most common P2' residue. These preferences were not observed for caspase-9.”

      Finally, I would like the authors to at least explain why the cell viability assays were done in 293T cells while the micrographs were done in HeLa cells. Why not show both experiments for both cell types?

      In the paper we used 293T cells and HeLa cells as generic cell types that have distinct benefits. In general, we used 293T/17 cells for experiments where high transfection efficiency was most critical, as it is simple to achieve 90% or higher transfection efficiency in this line. However, 293T cells have poor spreading in culture and thus are not as useful for morphologic studies. 293T/17 cells do display pyroptotic ballooning upon gasdermin activation, however, the images are less pronounced in comparison to other cell types that have more distinct morphology. Therefore, we used HeLa cells for the microscopy experiments because they are more adherent and larger than 293T/17s which make for easier visualization of pyroptotic ballooning. We have added the following statement to the text to make our rationale for the use of different cell line more apparent: “In these experiments, 293T/17s were used for their high transfection efficiency, and HeLas were used for microscopy studies for their larger size and improved adherence.”

      There are a number of minor points related to language and presentation:

      • the expressions "pathogens contaminate the cytosol", "mammals can encode..", "an outsized effect" are unusual and might be rephrased.

      We changed these to:

      “manipulate the host cell, sometimes contaminating the cytosol with pathogen associated molecular patterns, or disrupting aspects of normal cell physiology”,

      “Only mammals encode GSDMC and GSDMD alongside the other four gasdermins.”,

      and

      “greater effect”

      • in line 87 the abbreviation "GSDMEc" is first used without explanation (of the "c").

      This is an important distinction, as GSDMEc proteins were only recently uncovered. To remedy this, we have added the following text following line 87: “This gasdermin was recently identified as an ortholog of GSDMA.

      It was called GSDMEc, following the nomenclature of other duplications of GSDME in bony fish that have been named GSDMEa and GSDMEb.”

      • line 89 grammar problem.

      Corrected

      • line 186ff the sentence "We believe..." does not appear to make sense.

      We revised the text to make this clear, changing the text to now read “We hypothesized that activating pyroptosis using separate gasdermins for caspase-1 and caspase-3 is a useful adaptation and allows for fine-tuning of these separate pathways. In mammals, this separation depends on the activation of GSDMD by caspase-1 and the activation of GSDME by caspase-3.”

      • many figures use pictures rather than text to represent species groups. These pictures are not always intuitive. As an example, in Figure 6 the 'snake' represents amphibians. After reading the text, I understand that these should probably be the caecilian amphibians, but not every reader might know what these critters look like. In Figure 7, I have no idea what the black blob (2nd image from top) is supposed to be.

      In crafting the manuscript, we found the use of text to denote the various species to be cumbersome. The species silhouettes are a standard graphical depiction used in evolutionary biology, which we think aids readability to the figures. For example, in a paper cited in our manuscript, these same silhouettes were used to depict the evolution of GSDMs (https://doi.org/10.3389/fcell.2022.952015 Figure 1A, Figure 3D, Figure 4G). However, we agree that many readers will not know that caecilians are legless amphibians that resemble snakes in their body morphology, but are not close to snakes by phylogeny. We think it is important to use an image of a caecilian amphibian because the more iconic amphibians (frogs, salamanders) do not encode GSDMA. To increase clarity, we have mentioned the morphology of caecilians in the legend of Figure 2, Figure 6, and Figure 7 when caecilican amphibians are first introduced.

      In Figure 2: “Note, that caecilians morphologically are similar to snakes in their lack of legs and elongated body, however, this is an example of convergent evolution as caecilians are amphibians and are thus more closely related to frogs and salamanders than snakes.”

      In Figure 6: “M. unicolor is an amphibian despite sharing morphological similarity to a snake.”

      In Figure 7: “In caecilian amphibians, which are morphologically similar to snakes, birds, and reptiles, GSDMA is cleaved by caspase-1.”

      The black blob is the mollusk Lingula anatina, which unfortunately has an indistinct silhouette. To clarify this, we have added text to label the images in Figure 7.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      1. Line 214, in "(Fig. 3-S2) Human and mouse ..", it is necessary to type a period.

      2. Line 238, in the subtitle, GSMA should be amended to GSDMA.

      These have both been corrected.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We thank the three reviewers for their positive comments and helpful suggestions. We have addressed the issues raised which have helped to improve the manuscript. Below, we address the specific points with detailed responses.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor comments

      1) Figure 2 - figure supplement 1. The figure states minimal medium while the legend states rich medium.

      We have corrected the legend as the experiment was done in minimal medium.

      2) Figure 3B - the statements in the text do not seem to match what is in the figure. "Cluster 1 (293 genes, 12 priority unstudied) is enriched for genes showing high expression variability across different conditions (71) and for genes induced during meiotic differentiation (72) and in response to TORC1 inhibitors (29). Cluster 2 (570 genes, 20 priority unstudied) is enriched for phenotypes related to cell mating and sporulation, e.g. 'incomplete cell-wall disassembly at cell fusion site' or 'abnormal shmoo morphology'". These terms (high expression variability, meiotic differentiation, TORC1 inhibitors, cell mating and sporulation/abnormal shmoo morphology" are not seen in the figure.

      As stated in the Results, we have carried out analyses with both Metascape and AnGeLi for functional enrichments in different GO and KEGG pathway terms (Figure 3B; Metascape) and/or among genes from published expression or phenotyping studies (AnGeLi). The enrichments for expression variability, meiotic differentiation, TORC1 inhibitors, and cell mating/sporulation/abnormal shmoo morphology are not based on GO terms but on lists from published expression and phenotyping experiments. We have slightly edited the sentence in the Results to make this clearer.

      3) The authors could consider citing a systematic screen for sporulation in the introduction (PMID: 292590

      We have cited 17 papers for growth screens under different conditions using similar approaches as used by us. Given that we already cite 100 papers, we did not choose to cite numerous other papers reporting screens for more complex phenotypes (cell morphology, mating, meiosis, recombination, etc), which are not directly relevant to our study here.

      Reference PMID: 292590 refers to a 1979 paper in the German Dentist Journal.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      General comments

      1) The authors use their NET-FF approach to predict GO Biological Process and Molecular Function terms (Figure 4). Why was the Cellular Component ontology not included? In general, gene and protein functional characterization is best described by the Biological Process and Cellular Component ontologies, whereas Molecular Function describes the biochemical activity of a protein. In other words, proteins which share Biological Process and/or Cellular Component annotations often function in the same module, which may not be the case for shared Molecular Function annotations.

      We did not include Cellular Component because in previous benchmarking of our method using CAFA datasets our approach did not perform well at predicting Cellular Component. This aspect is harder to pick up from homology data and protein network data and is generally the toughest challenge in CAFA. In contrast, our predictions of Biological Process and Molecular Function are competitive with other methods. We have now made the reason for omitting Cellular Component clearer in the Methods.

      2) The authors use protein embeddings produced by integrating 6 STRING networks using the deepNF method. One of these networks is the "database" network. According to STRING (https://academic.oup.com/nar/article/47/D1/D607/5198476): "The database channel is based on manually curated interaction records assembled by expert curators, at KEGG, Reactome, BioCyc and Gene Ontology, as well as legacy datasets from PID and BioCarta". If one of the input networks contains information from GO, and then embeddings containing this information are used to predict GO annotations, are the authors not then leaking annotations which could improve downstream GO annotation predictions? It would be valuable to demonstrate to what extent the "database" network is contributing by repeating the GO prediction analyses with this network removed.

      We agree and also pointed out this circularity in the manuscript. We used an independent dataset – phenotype data – to benchmark our method, which showed good performance. Note that this study did not aim to develop a completely new method or improve on deepNF and CATH-FunFams but to integrate and exploit their combined power. For that reason, we wanted to keep as many high-quality curated edges in the STRING network as possible. Combining these independent methods brings synergies from their complementary approaches to facilitate interpretation of gene function.

      Minor comments

      1) Ternary encoding was used as a preprocessing step on the phenotype data before clustering was performed. An explanation of why this encoding was necessary (as opposed to a normalization/standardization approach) would be helpful.

      Ternary encoding was not strictly necessary but provided more nuanced and coherent clusters. Some conditions and mutants were associated with much larger phenotypic responses which disproportionately influenced the clustering. After trying different approaches, we followed the recommendations from the R package microbialPhenotypes (https://github.com/peterwu19881230/microbialPhenotypes), which is now specified in the legend of Fig. 3A. Discretizing the data also helped to compare phenotypes across different types of mutants, and we have applied this approach previously in our phenomics study of non-coding RNA mutants (Rodriguez-Lopez et al. eLife 2022). Moreover, this approach allowed us to generate vectors of phenotypes for calculating phenotypic distances between mutants (including hamming distance or Pearson correlations), which supported the posterior cluster analysis using Cytoscape.

      2) The authors use a validation set to perform early-stopping on the deepNF model. However, it appears that the validation set proteins are then used in downstream analyses anyway: "After training, weights from the epoch with the lowest validation loss were used to generate embeddings for all proteins" (my emphasis). In the case where the model was being used to generalize to new proteins (such as classification), this analysis would not be a valid way to perform hyperparameter tuning (e.g. early-stopping) since the validation set is then used in downstream analyses. However, deepNF is performing an unsupervised, multi- network encoding on all the available datapoints (proteins). In the case where only deepNF loss is being used to tune the hyperparameters, it's not necessary to use a held-out validation set - it is appropriate to use the full set of proteins to do this.

      Our Random Forest consisted of 500 trees with default values for the number of sub- features as √n and partial sampling of 0.7. GO terms were predicted using 5-fold cross- validation. Changing parameters showed that our model was robust to the values of the hyperparameters, so we settled on our initial model.

      3) The NET-FF hyperparameter tuning results should be made available in the supplement.

      We do not think this would be useful for the reason described in the reply above.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Major points

      1) Why were the quantitive colony size data converted to -1, 0, and 1?

      It is unclear to me why the authors decided to convert the colony size data to ternary encoding of -1, 0, and 1. The original colony size data seem to be of fairly high precision so that the authors can detect a 5% difference from the wild type. I guess the authors must have tried using the quantitive colony size data for clustering analysis and found the results unsatisfactory. If that is the case, can the authors provide some possible explanations?

      A similar query has been raised by Reviewer 2. Ternary encoding provided more nuanced and coherent clusters. Some conditions and mutants were associated with much larger phenotypic responses which disproportionately influenced the clustering. After trying different approaches, we followed the recommendations from the R package microbialPhenotypes, as now specified in the legend of Fig. 3A. Discretizing the data also helped to compare phenotypes across different types of mutants, and we have applied this approach previously in our phenomics study of non-coding RNA mutants (Rodriguez-Lopez et al. eLife 2022). Moreover, this approach allowed us to generate vectors of phenotypes for calculating phenotypic distances between mutants (including hamming distance or Pearson correlations), which supported the posterior cluster analysis using Cytoscape.

      2) What do 5% difference and 10% difference look like?

      The authors used 5% difference and 10% difference as cutoffs. I am curious whether a 5% difference in colony size is obvious to human eyes. Can the authors show some plate images and label colonies that differ from the wild type by about 5% and 10%? It will help readers understand the thresholds used for determining whether a mutant has a phenotype.

      Showing the original ‘raw’ colonies would not be meaningful because all colony sizes have been grid-corrected as described (Kamrad et al. eLife 2020). The grid correction takes care of three issues: (1) it converts colony size into an easily interpretable value by reporting a ratio relative to wild type; (2) it makes results comparable across different plates/batches; and (3) it corrects for within-plate positional effects which become apparent due to the same wild-type grid strain showing different fitness in different plate positions. But in principle, detecting a 5% difference in colony size by eye would be hard, and multiple measurements are required (>10 repeats) to obtain statistically reliable results. Author response image 1 shows the grid colonies in red frames and numbers at bottom right of colonies indicate the corrected effect sizes. Colony 17-8 (top right) is an example of a colony differing by 5% compared to neighbouring colonies 16-8 and 17-9.

      Author response image 1.

      3) How were the phenotyping conditions chosen?

      I am sure that the authors have put a lot of thoughts into designing the 131 phenotyping conditions. It will benefit the readers if the authors can explain how these conditions were chosen. For example, what literature precedents were considered and which conditions have never been examined before in S. pombe research? For drug treatment conditions, were pilot tests done to choose drug doses based on the growth inhibition effects on the wild type?

      We have used a wide range of different types of conditions that affect diverse processes (see colour legend on top of Fig. 3A). This was based on our previous experience and selection of conditions in large-scale phenotyping of wild strains (Jeffares et al. Nature Genetics 2015) and non-coding RNA mutants (Rodriguez-Lopez et al. eLife 2022). For previously applied conditions (e.g. oxidants), we used literature precedents for the doses, while for other conditions, we used trial and error to adjust the diose such that wild-type cell growth is barely inhibited. For some drugs and stresses, we assayed both low and high doses, in which wild-type cell growth is normal or inhibited, respectively, to uncover both sensitive or resistant mutants.

      Minor points

      1) One of the growth condition is "YES_ethanol_1percent_no_glucose". I am curious how this is possible, as S. pombe cannot use ethanol as a carbon source.

      We assume that the cells contain sufficient internal glucose to fuel growth and division for a few cycles before running out of glucose. Thus, cells showed some residual growth on this medium, but growth is indeed very limited. Nevertheless, we could identify both sensitive and resistant mutants in this condition.

      2) Abstract "over 900 new proteins affected the resistance to oxidative stress". This sentence should be rephrased. Perhaps it is better to say "over 900 proteins were newly implicated in the resistance to oxidative stress".

      Yes, we have edited the sentence as suggested.

      3) Page 4 "S. pombe encodes 641 'unknown' genes (PomBase, status March 2023). " "Among these 643 unknown proteins, many are apparently found only in the fission yeast clade, but 380 are more widely conserved. " Which number is correct, 641 or 643?

      These numbers keep changing slightly. We now consistently use 641, the number from March 2023.

      4) Page 4 "These priority unstudied proteins have not been directly studied in any organism but can be assumed to have pertinent biological roles conserved over 500 million years of evolution. " According to http://timetree.org/, S. pombe and H. sapiens diverged about 1275 million years ago.

      We have now changed ‘over 500 million’ to ‘over 1000 million’, although there are of course different estimates for these times.

      5) "Using these potent wet and dry methods, we obtained 103,520 quantitative phenotype datapoints for 3,492 non-essential genes across 131 diverse conditions."

      I think "quantitative phenotype datapoints" are generated using wet methods, not dry methods. Yes, we have now deleted ‘Using these potent wet and dry methods,’ and start the sentence with ‘We obtained…’

      6) Abstract "We assayed colony-growth phenotypes to measure the fitness of deletion mutants for all 3509 non-essential genes"

      Page 6 "We performed colony-based phenotyping of the deletion mutants for all non- essential S. pombe genes"

      It is not clear to me how the authors can claim that the 3509 non-essential genes correspond to "all non-essential S. pombe genes". The authors should explain how they classify S. pombe genes into essential genes and non-essential genes. The deletion project papers (Kim et al. 2010 and Hayles et al. 2013) provided binary classification for most but not all genes, as there are genes whose deletion mutants were not generated by the deletion project. PomBase does not use a binary classification and there are a number of genes deemed "Gene Deletion Viability: Depends on conditions" by PomBase.

      We used the latest deletion library (Bioneer Version 5) as well as additional deletion mutants published by Kathy Gould and colleagues, which together should capture all non- essential genes. But we agree that non-essentiality is not that clear-cut and context- dependent. So we have deleted ‘all’ in the two sentences highlighted above.

      7) Page 20 "Other clusters contained mostly genes involved in vacuolar/endosomal transport and peroxisome function, along with poorly characterized genes (Figure 6B)."

      This sentence needs rephrasing. Perhaps it is better to say "Cluster 31 and cluster 22 contained respectively mostly genes involved in vacuolar/endosomal transport and peroxisome function, along with poorly characterized genes (Figure 6B)."

      We have edited this sentence to ‘Cluster 31 and Cluster 22 contained mostly genes involved in vacuolar/endosomal transport and peroxisome function, respectively, along with poorly characterized genes (Figure 6B).’

      8) Legend of Figure 2-figure supplement 1A

      "Left: Volcano plot of mutant colony sizes for priority unstudied genes (green) and all other genes (grey) growing in rich medium. " I think "rich medium" should be "minimal medium".

      Yes, we have now corrected this.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, the role of orexin receptors in dopamine neurons is studied. Considering the importance of both orexin and dopamine signalling in the brain, with critical roles in arousal and drug seeking, this study is important to understand the anatomical and functional interaction between these two neuromodulators. This work suggests that such interaction is direct and occurs at the level of SN and VTA, via the expression of OX1R-type orexin receptors by dopaminergic neurons.

      Strengths:

      The use of a transgenic line that lacks OX1R in dopamine-transporter-expressing neurons is a strong approach to dissecting the direct role of orexin in modulating dopamine signalling in the brain. The battery of behavioural assays to study this line provides a valuable source of information for researchers interested in the role of orexin-A in animal physiology.

      We thank the reviewer for summarizing the importance and significance of our study. 

      Weaknesses:

      The choice of methods to demonstrate the role of orexin in the activation of dopamine neurons is not justified and the quantification methods are not described with enough detail. The representation of results can be dramatically improved and the data can be statistically analysed with more appropriate methods.

      We have further improved our description of the methods in the revised reviewed preprint, and here in the response letter, we respond point-by-point to ‘Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors)’ below. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript examines the expression of orexin receptors in the midbrain - with a focus on dopamine neurons - and uses several fairly sophisticated manipulation techniques to explore the role of this peptide neurotransmitter in reward-related behaviors. Specifically, in situ hybridization is used to show that dopamine neurons predominantly express the orexin receptor 1 subtype and then go on to delete this receptor in dopamine neurons using a transgenic strategy. Ex vivo calcium imaging of midbrain neurons is used to show that in the absence of this receptor orexin is no longer able to excite dopamine neurons of the substantia nigra.

      The authors proceed to use this same model to study the effect of orexin receptor 1 deletion on a series of behavioral tests, namely, novelty-induced locomotion and exploration, anxiety-related behavior, preference for sweet solutions, cocaine-induced conditioned place preference, and energy metabolism. Of these, the most consistent effects are seen in the tests of novelty-induced locomotion and exploration in which the mice with orexin 1 receptor deletion are observed to show greater levels of exploration, relative to wild-type, when placed in a novel environment, an effect that is augmented after icv administration of orexin.

      In the final part of the paper, the authors use PET imaging to compare brain-wide activity patterns in the mutant mice compared to wildtype. They find differences in several areas both under control conditions (i.e., after injection of saline) as well as after injection of orexin. They focus on changes in the dorsal bed nucleus of stria terminalis (dBNST) and the lateral paragigantocellular nucleus (LPGi) and perform analysis of the dopaminergic projections to these areas. They provide anatomical evidence that these regions are innervated by dopamine fibers from the midbrain, are activated by orexin in control, but not mutant mice, and that dopamine receptors are present. Thus, they argue these anatomical data support the hypothesis that behavioral effects of orexin receptor 1 deletion in dopamine neurons are due to changes in dopamine signaling in these areas.

      Strengths:

      Understanding how orexin interacts with the dopamine system is an important question and this paper contains several novel findings along these lines. Specifically:

      (1) The distribution of orexin receptor subtypes in VTA and SN is explored thoroughly.

      (2) Use of the genetic model that knocks out a specific orexin receptor subtype from only dopamine neurons is a useful model and helps to narrow down the behavioral significance of this interaction.

      (3) PET studies showing how central administration of orexin evokes dopamine release across the brain is intriguing, especially since two key areas are pursued - BNST and LPGi - where the dopamine projection is not as well described/understood.

      We thank the reviewer for the careful summary and highlighting the novelty of our study.

      Weaknesses:

      The role of the orexin-dopamine interaction is not explored in enough detail. The manuscript presents several related findings, but the combination of anatomy and manipulation studies does not quite tell a cogent story. Ideally, one would like to see the authors focus on a specific behavioral parameter and show that one of their final target areas (dBNST or LPGi) was responsible or at least correlated with this behavioral readout. In addition, some more discussion on what the results tell us about orexin signaling to dopamine neurons under normal physiological conditions would be very useful. For example, what is the relevance of the orexin-dopamine interaction blunting noveltyinduced locomotion under wildtype conditions?

      We agree that focusing on some orexin-dopamine targeting areas, such as dBNST or LPGi, is important to further reveal the anatomy-behavior links and underlying mechanisms. While we are very interested in further investigations, in the present manuscript we mainly aim to give an overview of the behavioral roles of orexin-dopamine interaction and to propose some promising downstream pathways in a relatively broad and systematical way. 

      We have explained the physiological meanings of our results in more detail in the discussion in the revised reviewed preprint (lines 282-293, 318-332, ). Novelty-induced behavioral response should be at proper levels under normal physiological conditions. The orexin-dopamine interaction blunting novelty-induced locomotion could be important to keep attention on the main task without being distracted too much by other random stimuli in the environment. When this balance is disrupted, behavioral deficit may happen, such as attention deficit and hyperactivity disorder (ADHD).  

      In some places in the Results, insufficient explanation and reporting is provided. For example, when reporting the behavioral effects of the Ox1 deletion in two bottle preference, it is stated that "[mutant] mice showed significant changes..." without stating the direction in which preference was affected.

      For the reward-related behaviors described in this study, we did not find significant changes between [mutant] and control mice. We agree that it will be helpful for readers by describing the behavioral tests in more details. In the revised reviewed preprint, we have described in more detail in the results and Materials and Methods section how the control and [mutant] mice behave to the reward (lines 162-165, 171-181, 526-528).  

      The cocaine CPP results are difficult to interpret because it is unclear whether any of the control mice developed a CPP preference. Therefore, it is difficult to conclude that the knockout animals were unaffected by drug reward learning. Similarly, the sucrose/sucralose preference scores are also difficult to interpret because no test of preference vs. water is performed (although the data appear to show that there is a preference at least at higher concentrations, it has not been tested).

      We described the CPP analysis in the Materials and Methods section (lines 523-528 ) as below: ‘The percentage of time spent in the reward-paired compartment was calculated: 100 x time spent in the compartment / (total time - time spent in the middle area). The CPP score was then analyzed using the calculated percentage of time: 100 x (time on the test day – time on pre-test days)/ time on pre-test days. The pre-test and test days were before and after the conditioning, respectively. Thus, the CPP score above zero indicates that the CPP preference has developed.’ In Figure 2—figure supplement 4 C and F, it was shown that most control and knockout mice had a CPP score above zero. The control and knockout groups both developed a preference and there was no significant difference between the groups. 

      For the sucrose/sucralose preference tests, in Figure 2—figure supplement 4 A and D, we present values as the percentages of sucrose/sucralose consumption in total daily drinking amount (sucrose/sucralose solution + water). Thus, percentages above 50% indicates mice prefer sucrose/sucralose to water. As shown in the figure, male mice only showed weak preference of 0.5% sucrose, compared to water, and under all other tested conditions, the mice showed strong preference of the sweet solution. There was no significant difference between control and knockout mice. 

      We have described this in more details in the Results and Materials and Methods section in the revised reviewed preprint. 

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Figure 1, A-I. It is difficult to depict the anatomical subdivision of VTA in Figure 1, panels A and B. It is recommended to add a panel showing a schematic illustration of the SNc and subregions of VTA: PN, PIF, PBP, IF (providing more detail than in Figure 1, panel J). It is also recommended to show lower magnification images (as in Figure 1 - supplement 1), including both hemispheres, and to delineate the outline of the different subregions using curved lines, based on reference atlases (similar to Figure 1, panel I, please include distance from bregma). It would be helpful to indicate in Figure 1 that panel A is a control mouse and panel B is a Ox1RΔDAT mouse and include C-F letters to show corresponding insets. Anatomically, the paraintrafasicular nucleus (PIF) is positioned between the paranigral nucleus (PN) and the parabrachial pigmented nucleus (PBP). The authors have depicted the PIF ventral to the PN in Figure 1 panels A, B, and I. These panels and the quantification of Ox1R/2R positive cells within the different subdivisions need to be corrected accordingly. The image analysis method used to quantify RNAscope fluorescent images is not described in sufficient detail. Please expand this section.

      According to the reviewer’s suggestions, we have refined Figure 1 in the revised reviewed preprint. We are now showing the schematic illustration of the SN and subregions of VTA in panel I, with blue squares to label the regions shown in panels A and B, and the distance from bregma is included. The outlines to delineate SN and the subregions of VTA are adjusted from straight to curved lines based on reference atlases. As suggested, we have also indicated panel A is a control and panel B is a Ox1RΔDAT mouse and included C-F letters to show corresponding insets. We apologize for the mistake about labeling PIF and PN positions in Figure A. We have corrected the labeling of their positions and double checked the quantification accordingly. This does not change our discussion or conclusion since both PIF and PN are the medial part of VTA, where both Ox1R and Ox2R are observed. The description of the image analysis in Matierials and Methods section has been improved (lines 378-385). We decided not to show lower magnification images than in Figure 1—supplement 1 to include both hemispheres, in the interests of clarity and reader-friendliness.  

      (2) Figure 1, J-L. The claim that orexin activates dopaminergic SN and VTA neurons is weakly supported by the data provided. Calcium imaging of SN dopaminergic neurons in control mice suggests a discrete effect of 100 nM orexin-A application compared to baseline. Application of 300 nM shows a slightly bigger effect, but none of these results are statistically analysed. 

      We are surprised by this comment and thank the reviewer for pointing out our apparent lack of clarity in the previous version (lines 96-106 and legend of Figure 1K, L). In more detail, we explain the data analysis in the new version (lines 119-133, 451-465) and the legend of Figure 1K, L and Figure 1-figure supplement 3).

      The main goal of this part of the project was to functionally validate the Ox1R knockout in dopaminergic (DAT-expressing) neurons. This was a prerequisite for the behavioral and PET imaging experiments. We used GCaMP-mediated Ca2+ imaging in acute brain slices to reach this goal. This analysis was performed on the dopaminergic SN neurons, which we used as an "indicator population" because a large number of these neurons express Ox1R, but only a few express Ox2R. 

      The analysis consisted of two parts:

      a) For each neuron, we tested whether it responded to orexin A. At the single cell level, a neuron was considered orexin A-responsive if the change in fluorescence induced by orexin A was three times larger than the standard deviation (3 σ criterion) of the baseline fluorescence, corresponding to a Zscore of 3. We found that 56% of the neurons tested responded to orexin A, while 44% of the neurons did not respond to orexin A (Figure 1L, top). These data agree with the number of Ox1R-expressing neurons (Figure 1J). 

      b) We also determined the orexin A-induced GCaMP fluorescence for each neuron, expressed as a percentage of GCaMP fluorescence induced upon application of high K+ saline. Accordingly, the "population response" of all analyzed neurons was expressed as the mean ± SEM of these responses. The significance of this mean response was tested for each group (control and Ox1R KO) using a onesample t-test. We found a marked and highly significant (p < 0.0001, n = 71) response of control neurons to 100 nM orexin A, while the Ox1R KO neurons did not respond (p = 0.5, n = 86). Note that, as described in a), 44% of the neurons contributing to the mean do not respond to orexin. Thus, the orexin responses of most responders are significantly higher than the mean. This is also evident in the example recordings in Figure 1K and Figure1—figure supplement 3. The orexin A-induced change in fluorescence was increased by increasing the orexin A concentration to 300 nM.

      Note: As mentioned above, the orexin A response was expressed for each neuron individually as a percentage of its high K+saline-induced GCaMP fluorescence. This value is a solid reference point, reflecting the GCaMP fluorescence at maximal voltage-activated Ca2+ influx. Obviously, the Ca2+ concentration at this point is extremely high and not typically reached under physiological conditions. Therefore, as shown in Figure1—figure supplement 3 for completeness, the physiologically relevant responses may appear relatively minor at first glance when presented together in one figure (compare Figure1—figure supplement 3 A and B).

      The authors should provide more evidence of the orexin-induced activation of dopaminergic neurons in the SN to support this claim and investigate whether a similar activation is observed in VTA neurons. 

      Following the reviewer's suggestion, we confirmed orexin A-induced activation of dopaminergic neurons in the mouse SN by using perforated patch clamp recordings (Figure1—figure supplement 2).

      This finding is consistent with previous extracellular in vivo recordings in rats (Liu et al., 2018).

      The activation of dopaminergic neurons in the mouse VTA by orexin A has been shown repeatedly in earlier studies (e.g., Baimel et al., 2017; Korotkova et al., 2003; Tung et al., 2016).

      In addition, Figure 3-Figure Supplement 2 shows that injection of orexin does not induce c-Fos expression in SN and VTA dopaminergic neurons of control and Ox1RΔDAT mice, which further weakens the claim made by the authors.

      Figure 3—Figure Supplement 2 in the original submission is now Figure 3—Figure Supplement 3 in the revised reviewed preprint. It shows low c-Fos expression in SN and VTA dopaminergic neurons, and orexin-induced c-Fos expression was observed in Th-negative cells in SN and VTA. 

      Technically relatively straightforward, Fos analysis is widely (and successfully) used in studies to reveal neuronal activation. However, this approach has limitations, e.g., regarding sensitivity and temporal resolution. Electrophysiological or optical imaging techniques can circumvent these shortcomings. The electrophysiological and Ca2+ imaging studies presented here, along with previous electrophysiological studies by others, clearly show that orexin A acutely and directly stimulates SN and VTA dopaminergic neurons.

      In vivo, the injection of orexin A induced a pronounced c-Fos activity in non-dopaminergic cells of the VTA and SN but not in dopaminergic neurons. This result shows that the detection of c-Fos has worked in principle. Whether the absent c-Fos staining in dopaminergic neurons is due to lack of sensitivity, whether other IEGs would have worked better here, or whether there are other, e.g., cell type-specific reasons for the absence of staining, cannot be determined from the current data.

      (3) Figure 2, I-L. The fact that ICV injection of both saline and orexin causes a sustained increase of locomotion (around 20 minutes in males, and over 30 minutes in females) is problematic and could mask the effects of orexin, particularly in females. It is unclear what panels J and L are showing. To be appropriately analysed, the authors should plot the pre- and post-injection AUC data for all groups and analyse it as a two-way mixed ANOVA, with the within-subjects factor "pre/post injection activity" and between-subjects factor "group". The authors can only warrant a statistically meaningful hyperlocomotor effect in Ox1RΔDAT mice if a significant interaction is found.

      Though mice were habituated to the injection, it still makes sense to see the injection-induced increase in locomotion to some extent. We described in the figure legend that the AUC was calculated for the period after orexin injection, which meant 5 – 90 min in Figure 2 I, K. We have clearly observed significant differences between genotypes and between saline and orexin application, which means the genotype and orexin impact is strong enough to pop up despite of the injection effect. 

      As the reviewer’s suggests, we have now plotted the pre- and post-injection AUC data for all groups and analyzed it as a two-way mixed ANOVA, with the within-subjects factor "pre/post injection activity" and between-subjects factor "group". To match the pre- and post-injection duration, we are now comparing AUC for around 60 min before and after the injection. A significant interaction is found here. Panels I-L are renewed, and the differences induced by Ox1R knockout and orexin confirmed the results shown in the initially submitted manuscript.  

      (4) Figure 3. The literature has robustly shown that one of the main projection areas of VTA and SN dopaminergic neurons is the striatum, in particular its ventral part. It is surprising to see that this region is not affected by the lack of OX1R or by the injection of orexin. How can the authors explain that identified regions with significantly different activity include neighbouring brain structures with heterogenous composition? See for example, in panel A, section bregma 0.62mm, a significant region is seen expanding across the cortex, corpus callosum, and striatum. While the data from PET studies is potentially interesting, it may not be adequate to provide enough resolution to allow examination of the anatomical distribution of orexin-mediated neuronal activation.

      While the striatum is a major projection area of dopaminergic neurons in VTA and SN, the projection and function of Ox1R-positive dopaminergic neurons is not clear. We have improved the description of dopamine function diversity in the revised reviewed preprint (lines 46-58), and it was reported before that the projection-defined dopaminergic populations in the VTA exhibited different responses to orexin A (Baimel et al., 2017). Moreover, the striatum activity is modulated by the indirect effect via other brain regions affected by Ox1R-positive dopaminergic neurons. It is unknown how the striatum activity should change after Ox1R deletion in dopaminergic neurons. We could not rule out the possibility that the striatum is indeed modulated by the Ox1R-positive dopaminergic neurons, though there was only a trend of genotype difference (Ox1RΔDAT vs. ctrl) in the ventral striatum in the section bregma 1.42 mm in Figure 3A. The ICV injection of orexin is potentially acting on Ox1R and Ox2R in the whole brain, so projections from other brain regions to the striatum also affect striatum activity and could have masked the effect of Ox1R-positive dopaminergic neurons. 

      The spatial resolution of the PET data is in the order of ~1 mm^3. As we also explained in the Materials and Methods section, the size of a voxel in the original PET data is 0.4mm x 0.4mm x 0.8 mm. All calculations were performed on this grid. The higher-resolved images shown in Figure 3 are for presentation purposes only inspired by a request of the reviewer who asked us to show this in the Jais et al. 2016 manuscript. To make this clearer we now added the p-map images with the original voxel size to the supplement (Figure 3—figure supplement 1). For the interest in specific brain areas, more precise identification of anatomical sub-regions requires using methods with higher spatial resolution such as staining of brain slices for c-Fos-positive cells as we do in Figure 4.

      PET is a powerful tool to identify global regions of activation/inhibition. In the manuscript, we have described in the results and discussion section that the activity in brain regions with related functions were changed. In panel A, Ox1RΔDAT showed activity increase in MPA, Pir and endopiriform claustrum, which are important for olfactory sensation; spinal trigeminal nucleus, sp5, and IRt, which regulates mastication and sensation of the oral cavity and the surface of the face; SubCV and Gi, which regulates sleeping and motion-related arousal and motivation. In panel B, changes in HDB, MCPO, Pir, DEn, S1, V2L and V1 are related to sensation, and changes in BNST, LPGi and M2 are important for emotion, exploration, and action selection. 

      (5) Figure 4. As in Figure 1, the authors should consider including a schematic illustration of the brain areas that are being analysed using a reference atlas. It is also recommended to provide more details describing the quantification of the images. Without such information, the data is not convincing, in particular, the claim that Ox1R depletion causes a decrease in DRD1 in BNST is unclear. Additional unbiased quantitative approaches could be used to strengthen this point.

      We have added Figure 4—figure supplement 1 as a schematic illustration of the brain areas that were being analyzed using a reference atlas. More details describing the unbiased quantification of the images have been added to Materials and Methods. We have added Figure 4—figure supplement 3, to show DRD1, DRD2 and the merged signal separately.  

      (6) The discussion starts by stating that the main findings of this study are based on RNAscope and optophysiological experiments, however, the latter are not presented anywhere in the manuscript. This sentence (line 192) should be revised. The authors state in line 193 that OX1R is the only orexin receptor in the SN, but they show in Figure 1 that in the SN, 3% of neurons express OX2R and 2% co-express both receptors. 

      We thank the reviewer for the input. We have rephrased the beginning of the discussion to clarify the objectives (lines 238 - 246). In doing so, we changed "optophysiological experiments" and "single orexin receptor" (lines 192 and 193 in the original manuscript) to " Ca2+ imaging experiments" and "main subtype of orexin receptors ", respectively. In this context, it should be noted that Ca2+ imaging is considered an optophysiological method - optophysiology generally refers to techniques that combine optical methods with physiological measurements.

      The results of LPGi and BNST dopamine receptors in control and Ox1RΔDAT mice are poorly discussed. The authors should justify why these two regions were selected for further validation and how these may be related to the behavioural effects found in Ox1RΔDAT regarding exposure to a novel context.

      Ox1RΔDAT mice exhibited increased novelty- and orexin-induced locomotion compared to control mice. After orexin injection, PET imaging shows that the neural activity of BNST and LPGi was lower or higher than in control mice, respectively. We selected BNST and LPGi for further validation because we think their key functional roles in regulating emotion, exploratory behaviors and locomotor speed are related to novelty-induced locomotion. We confirmed changes in neural activity change by c-Fos staining and investigated the expression patterns of dopamine receptors in BNST and LPGi. Our findings suggested that Ox1R deletion in dopaminergic neurons results in the disinhibition of neural activity in LPGi via dopaminergic pathways and the decrease of dopamine-mediated neural activity in BNST. Emotion perception affects the decision of how to respond to the novelty. It is possible that novelty activates the orexin system and Ox1R signaling in dopaminergic neurons promotes emotion perception and inhibits exploration. Of course, further careful investigation is necessary to test this hypothesis in the future experiments. We have improved the rational description and discussion in the

      ‘Results’ and ‘Discussion’ section in the revised reviewed preprint (lines 210-213, 259-270, 293-308). 

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      A major recommendation - if possible - would be to directly show that one or both of the two target areas - dBNST and LPGi - are associated with the behavioral effects caused by the deletion of the orexin receptor 1 in dopamine neurons.

      We completely agree that it would be very valuable to directly show dBNST and LPGi are associated with the behavioral effects caused by the deletion of Ox1R in dopaminergic neurons. While we are very interested in carefully investigating specific orexin-dopamine targeting areas and related neural circuits in the future, in the present manuscript, we mainly aim to give an overview of the behavioral roles of orexin-dopamine interaction and propose some promising downstream pathways. 

      The authors should state if data are corrected for multiple comparisons, e.g., in the PET study of different regions.

      We have included information about the post-hoc tests for all 2-way ANOVA analyses in the submitted manuscript. For the PET study, the p-values in the p-maps were not corrected for multiple comparison, Figure 3—figure supplement 2 shows the raw data of each mouse and the analysis method (t-test). In the revised reviewed preprint, we include the information on the analysis method in the figure legends of Figure 3. 

      We consider that saline and orexin injections mimic the resting and active state of mice, respectively, and would like to study genotype effect under each condition. Doing 2-way ANOVA takes in count the difference between orexin and saline injection, which could mask the genotype effect under a certain condition. Therefore, we decided to perform t-tests for each condition in Figure 3. While we provide readers with full information in Figure 3—figure supplement 2 with the raw data of each individual mouse, below we present the p-maps after multiple comparisons (Sidak’s post hoc test). After multiple comparisons, we could see changes in similar brain regions as in Figure 3, though significant values are reduced by the correction for multiple comparisons, and under orexin-injection condition, we fail to see significantly higher activity around the lateral paragigantocellular nucleus (LPGi), nucleus of the horizontal limb of the diagonal band (HDB) and magnocellular preoptic nucleus (MCPO) in Ox1RΔDAT mice. In order to more precisely identify the anatomical locations, we performed additional experiments to confirm the changes revealed by PET. For example, LPGi is a relatively small region confirmed and identified more precisely by c-Fos immunostaining (Figure 4A, C). 

      Author response image 1.

      PET imaging studies comparing Ox1RΔDAT and control mice, with post-hoc t-test to correct for multiple comparisons. 3D maps of p-values in PET imaging studies comparing Ox1RΔDAT and control mice, after intracerebroventricular (ICV) injection of (A) saline (NS) and (B) orexin A. Control-NS, n = 8; control-orexin, n = 6; Ox1RΔDAT, n = 8. M2, secondary motor cortex; MPA, medial preoptic area; Pir, piriform cortex; IEn, intermediate endopiriform claustrum; DEn, dorsal endopiriform claustrum; VEn, ventral endopiriform claustrum; LSS, lateral stripe of the striatum; BNST, the dorsal bed nucleus of the stria terminalis; S1Sh, primary somatosensory cortex, shoulder region; S1HL, primary somatosensory cortex, hindlimb region; S1BF, primary somatosensory cortex, barrel field; S1Tr, primary somatosensory cortex, trunk region; V1, primary visual cortex; V2L, secondary visual cortex, lateral area; SubCV, subcoeruleus nucleus, ventral part; Gi, gigantocellular reticular nucleus; IRt, intermediate reticular nucleus; sp5, spinal trigeminal tract.

      Provide a rationale for following up on BNST and LPGi and not any of the regions identified in the PET study.

      We thank the reviewer for the careful reading and important input. Ox1RΔDAT mice exhibited increased novelty- and orexin-induced locomotion compared to control mice. After orexin injection, PET imaging shows that the neural activity of BNST and LPGi was lower or higher than control mice, respectively.

      We selected BNST and LPGi for further validation because we think their key functional roles in regulating emotion, exploratory behaviors and locomotor speed are related to novelty-induced locomotion. We confirmed the neural activity change by c-Fos staining and investigated the expression patterns of dopamine receptors in BNST and LPGi. Our findings suggested that Ox1R deletion in dopaminergic neurons results in the disinhibition of neural activity in LPGi via dopaminergic pathways and the decrease of dopamine-mediated neural activity in BNST. Emotion perception affects the decision how to respond to the novelty. It is possible that novelty activates the orexin system and Ox1R signaling in dopaminergic neurons promotes emotion perception and inhibits exploration. Of course, further investigation is necessary to test this hypothesis in future. We have improved the rational description and discussion in the ‘Results’ and ‘Discussion’ section in the revised reviewed preprint (lines 210-213, 259-270, 293-308). 

      Heatmap in Fig. 1K should not have smoothing across the y-axis, individual cells should be discrete.

      We thank the reviewer for bringing this issue to our attention. The data had not been intentionally smoothed (neither across the x-axis nor the y-axis), but it was probably a formatting issue. We have corrected this and separated individual cell traces with lines (Figure 1K, Figure 1—figure supplement 3).

      Dopamine cells are well known to lack Fos expression in most cases. Did the authors consider using another IEG to show neural activation, e.g., pERK?

      We did not use another IEG. The electrophysiological and Ca2+ imaging studies presented here, along with previous electrophysiological studies by others, clearly show that orexin A acutely and directly stimulates SN and VTA dopaminergic neurons. Please see also the response to a related comment of Reviewer 1.

      Consider adding a lower magnification section to anatomical figures to aid the reader in orienting and identifying the location.

      We have added the schematic illustration of SN, VTA, BNST and LPGi in Figure 1I and Figure 4— figure supplement 1. We hope this helps the reader in orienting and identifying the location.  

      Data availability should be stated.

      There are no restrictions on data availability. We have added this section to the revised reviewed preprint.

      Line 50. Some more references both historical and recent could be given to support this statement about the function of dopamine.

      We have improved the description and references to support the statement about dopamine function (lines 46-58). We have cited recent studies and some reviews in the revised reviewed preprint (lines 4658). 

      The PET data (Fig. 3) might be easier to visualize and interpret if a white background was used. In addition, is there a more refined way of presenting the data in Fig 3, S1?

      It is common to present imaging data such as PET and MRI on a black background. We also have already applied this color scheme in multiple publications and would therefore prefer to stick to this color scheme. 

      While Figure 3 is the concise way to present PET data, we aim to show the original individual results of mice in Figure 3—figure supplement 2 and to demonstrate how we performed the statistical analysis. Therefore, we take an example voxel of the respective brain area, perform the t-test, and present the data as bars with individual dots. 

      Line 97. State what type of Ca imaging here, e.g., "we performed Ca imaging in ex vivo slices of VTA and SN".

      As the reviewer suggested, we have specified the type of Ca2+ imaging (line 112).

      Line 165. State which groups this post-mortem analysis was performed on and if any differences were to be found (not expected to find differences in this anatomical tracing experiment but good to report this as both groups were used).

      Postmortem analysis of c-Fos staining revealed low c-Fos expression in dopaminergic neurons in the VTA and SN of Ox1RΔDAT and control mice after ICV injection of saline or orexin A (1 nmol). No obvious changes were observed among the groups. We have improved the description in the revised reviewed preprint (lines 202-208).

      Line 192. What do you mean by optophysiological here? The Ca imaging (which is a fairly small, confirmatory element of the manuscript).

      We have changed ‘optophysiological experiments’ (line 192 in initial submitted manuscript) to ‘calcium imaging experiments’ and rephrased the beginning of the discussion to clarify the objectives (lines 238246).

      The protein level in the diet is substantially higher than in most rodent diets (34% here vs 14-20% in most commercial rodent chows). Please comment on this.

      This diet is for rat and mouse maintenance, purchased from ssniff Spezialdiäten GmbH (product V1554).

      The percentage of calories supplied by protein is affected by the calculation methods. The company calculated with pig equation before and the value was 34% in the old instruction data sheet. They have updated the value to 23% in the new data sheet with calculations by Atwater factors. We thank the reviewer for reminding us and have updated the values in the revised reviewed preprint (lines 314-316). 

      Editor's note:

      Should you choose to revise your manuscript, please include full statistical reporting including exact p-values wherever possible alongside the summary statistics (test statistic and df) and 95% confidence intervals. These should be reported for all key questions and not only when the p-value is less than 0.05.

      We have provided the source data and the statistical reporting for each Figure with the revision

      References

      Baimel, C., Lau, B. K., Qiao, M., & Borgland, S. L. (2017). Projection-target-defined effects of orexin and dynorphin on VTA dopamine neurons. Cell Rep, 18(6), 1346-1355.  https://doi.org/10.1016/j.celrep.2017.01.030

      Korotkova, T. M., Eriksson, K. S., Haas, H. L., & Brown, R. E. (2002). Selective excitation of GABAergic neurons in the substantia nigra of the rat by orexin/hypocretin in vitro. Regul Pept, 104(1-3), 83-89. https://doi.org/10.1016/s0167-0115(01)00323-8 

      Korotkova, T. M., Sergeeva, O. A., Eriksson, K. S., Haas, H. L., & Brown, R. E. (2003). Excitation of ventral tegmental area dopaminergic and nondopaminergic neurons by orexins/hypocretins. J Neurosci, 23(1), 7-11. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12514194

      Liu, C., Xue, Y., Liu, M. F., Wang, Y., Liu, Z. R., Diao, H. L., & Chen, L. (2018). Orexins increase the firing activity of nigral dopaminergic neurons and participate in motor control in rats. J Neurochem, 147(3), 380-394. https://doi.org/10.1111/jnc.14568 

      Tung, L. W., Lu, G. L., Lee, Y. H., Yu, L., Lee, H. J., Leishman, E., Bradshaw, H., Hwang, L. L., Hung, M. S., Mackie, K., Zimmer, A., & Chiou, L. C. (2016). Orexins contribute to restraint stress-induced cocaine relapse by endocannabinoid-mediated disinhibition of dopaminergic neurons. Nat Commun, 7, 12199. https://doi.org/10.1038/ncomms12199

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We would like to thank all of the reviewers for their helpful and the effort they made in reading and evaluating our manuscript. In response to them, we have made major changes to the text and figures and performed substantial new experiments. These new data and changes to the text and figures have substantially strengthened the manuscript. We believe that the manuscript is now very strong in both its impact and scope and we hope that reviewers will find it suitable for publication in eLife

      A point-by-point response to the reviewers' specific comments is provided below.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this report, Yu et al ascribe potential tumor suppressive functions to the non-core regions of RAG1/2 recombinases. Using a well-established BCR-ABL oncogene-driven system, the authors model the development of B cell acute lymphoblastic leukemia in mice and found that RAG mutants lacking non-core regions show accelerated leukemogenesis. They further report that the loss of non-core regions of RAG1/2 increases genomic instability, possibly caused by increased off-target recombination of aberrant RAG-induced breaks. The authors conclude that the non-core regions of RAG1 in particular not only increase the fidelity of VDJ recombination, but may also influence the recombination "range" of off-target joints, and that in the absence of the non-core regions, mutant RAG1/2 (termed cRAGs) catalyze high levels of off-target recombination leading to the development of aggressive leukemia.

      Strengths:

      The authors used a genetically defined oncogene-driven model to study the effect of RAG non-core regions on leukemogenesis. The animal studies were well performed and generally included a good number of mice. Therefore, the finding that cRAG expression led to the development of more aggressive BCR-ABL+ leukemia compared to fRAG is solid.

      Weaknesses:

      In general, I find the mechanistic explanation offered by the authors to explain how the non-core regions of RAG1/2 suppress leukemogenesis to be less convincing. My main concern is that cRAG1 and cRAG2 are overexpressed relative to fRAG1/2. This raises the possibility that the observed increased aggressiveness of cRAG tumors compared to fRAG tumors could be solely due to cRAG1/2 overexpression, rather than any intrinsic differences in the activity of cRAG1/2 vs fRAG1/2; and indeed, the authors allude to this possibility in Fig S8, where it was shown that elevated expression of RAG (i.e. fRAG) correlated with decreased survival in pediatric ALL. Although it doesn't mean the authors' assertions are incorrect, this potential caveat should nevertheless be discussed.

      We appreciate the valuable suggestions from the reviewer. BCR-ABL1+ B-ALL is characterized by halted early B-lineage differentiation. In BCR-ABL1+ B cells, RAG recombinases are highly expressed, leading to the inactivation of genes that encode essential transcription factors for B-lineage differentiation. This results in cells being trapped within the precursor compartment, thereby elevating RAG gene expression. Our interpretation of the data suggests that, in BCR-ABL1+ B-ALL mouse models, the high expression of both cRAG and fRAG and the deletion of the non-core regions influence the precision of RAG targeting within the genome. This causes more genomic damage in cRAG tumors than in fRAG tumors, consequently leading to the observed increased aggressiveness of cRAG tumors compared to fRAG tumors. We discussed the issues on Page 12, lines 295-307 in the revised manuscript.

      Some of the conclusions drawn were not supported by the data.

      (1) I'm not sure that the authors can conclude based on μHC expression that there is a loss of pre-BCR checkpoint in cRAG tumors. In fact, Fig. 2B showed that the differences are not statistically significant overall, and more importantly, μHC expression should be detectable in small pre-B cells (CD43-). This is also corroborated by the authors' analysis of VDJ rearrangements, showing that it has occurred at the H chain locus in cRAG cells.

      We appreciate the insightful comment from the reviewer. Upon reevaluation of the data presented in Fig. 2B, we identified and rectified certain errors. The revised analysis now shows that the differences in μHC expression are statistically significant. This significant expression of μHC in fRAG leukemic cells implies that these cells may progress further in differentiation, potentially acquiring an immune phenotype. These modifications have been incorporated into the manuscript on page 7, lines 153-156 in the revised manuscript.

      (2) The authors found a high degree of polyclonal VDJ rearrangements in fRAG tumor cells but a much more limited oligoclonal VDJ repertoire in cRAG tumors. They concluded that this explains why cRAG tumors are more aggressive because BCR-ABL induced leukemia requires secondary oncogenic hits, resulting in the outgrowth of a few dominant clones (Page 19, lines 381-398). I'm not sure this is necessarily a causal relationship since we don't know if the oligoclonality of cRAG tumors is due to selection based on oncogenic potential or if it may actually reflect a more restricted usage of different VDJ gene segments during rearrangement.

      Thank you for your insightful comments and questions regarding the relationship between the oligoclonality of V(D)J rearrangements and the aggressiveness of cRAG tumors. You raise an important point regarding whether the observed oligoclonality is a result of selective pressure favoring clones with specific oncogenic potential, or if it reflects inherent limitations in V(D)J segment usage during rearrangement in cRAG models. In our study, we observed a marked difference in the V(D)J rearrangement patterns between fRAG and cRAG tumor cells, with cRAG tumors exhibiting a more limited, oligoclonal repertoire. This observation led us to speculate that the aggressive nature of cRAG tumors might be linked to a selective advantage conferred by specific V(D)J rearrangements that cooperate with the BCR-ABL1 oncogene to drive leukemogenesis. However, we acknowledge that our current data do not definitively establish a causal relationship between oligoclonality and tumor aggressiveness. The restricted V(D)J repertoire in cRAG tumors could indeed be due to a more constrained rearrangement process, possibly influenced by the altered expression or function of RAG1/2 in the absence of non-core regions. This could limit the diversity of V(D)J rearrangements, leading to the emergence of a few dominant clones not necessarily because they have greater oncogenic potential, but because of a narrowed field of rearrangement possibilities.

      To address this question more thoroughly, future studies could examine the functional consequences of specific V(D)J rearrangements found in dominant cRAG tumor clones. This could include assessing the oncogenic potential of these rearrangements in isolation and in cooperation with BCR-ABL1, as well as exploring the mechanistic basis for the restricted V(D)J repertoire. Such studies would provide deeper insight into the interplay between RAG-mediated recombination, clonal selection, and leukemogenesis in BCR-ABL1+ B-ALL.

      We appreciate your feedback on this matter and agree that further investigation is required to unravel the precise relationship between V(D)J rearrangement diversity and leukemic progression in cRAG models. We have revised our discussion to reflect these considerations and to clarify the speculative nature of our conclusions regarding the link between oligoclonality and tumor aggressiveness. We added more discussion on this issue on Page 7, lines 166-170 in the revised manuscript.

      (3) What constitutes a cancer gene can be highly context- and tissue-dependent. Given that there is no additional information on how any putative cancer gene was disrupted (e.g., truncation of regulatory or coding regions), it is not possible to infer whether increased off-target cRAG activity really directly contributed to the increased aggressiveness of leukemia.

      We totally agree you raised the issues. In Supplementary Table 3, we have presented data on off-target gene disruptions, specifically in introns, exons, downstream regions, promoters, 3' UTRs, and 5' UTRs. However, this dataset alone does not suffice to conclusively determine whether the increased off-target activity of cRAG directly influences the heightened aggressiveness of leukemia. To bridge this knowledge gap, our future research will extend to include both knockout and overexpression experiments targeting these off-target genes.

      (4) Fig. 6A, it seems that it is really the first four nucleotide (CACA) that determines fRAG binding and the first three (CAC) that determine cRAG binding, as opposed to five for fRAG and four for cRAG, as the author wrote (page 24, lines 493-497).

      We thank the reviewer for the insightful comment. In response, we have revised the text to accurately reflect the nucleotide sequences responsible for RAG binding and cleavage. Specifically, we now clarify that the first four nucleotides (CACA) are crucial for fRAG binding and cleavage, while the initial three nucleotides (CAC) are essential for cRAG binding and cleavage. These updates have been made on page 10, lines 242-245 of the revised manuscript.

      (5) Fig S3B, I don't really see why "significant variations in NHEJ" would necessarily equate "aberrant expression of DNA repair pathways in cRAG leukemic cells". This is purely speculative. Since it has been reported previously that alt-EJ/MMEJ can join off target RAG breaks, do the authors detect high levels of microhomology usage at break points in cRAG tumors?

      We appreciate the reviewer's comment. Currently, we have not observed microhomology usage at breakpoints in cRAG tumors. We plan to address this aspect in a future, more detailed study. Regarding the 'aberrant expression of DNA repair pathways in cRAG leukemic cells, we acknowledge that this is speculative. Therefore, we have carefully rephrased this to 'suggesting a potential aberrant expression of DNA repair pathways in cRAG leukemic cells.' This modification is reflected on page 12, lines 290-291 of the revised manuscript.

      (6) Fig. S7, CDKN2B inhibits CDK4/6 activation by cyclin D, but I don't think it has been shown to regulate CDK6 mRNA expression. The increase in CDK6 mRNA likely just reflects a more proliferative tumor but may have nothing to do with CDKN2B deletion in cRAG1 tumors.

      We fully concur with the reviewer's comment. We have deleted this inappropriate part from the text.

      Insufficient details in some figures. For instance, Fig. 1A, please include statistics in the plot showing a comparison of fRAG vs cRAG1, fRAG vs cRAG2, cRAG1 vs cRAG2. As of now, there's a single p-value (0.0425) stated in the main text and the legend but why is there only one p-value when fRAG is compared to cRAG1 or cRAG2? Similarly, the authors wrote "median survival days 11-26, 10-16, 11-21 days, P < 0.0023-0.0299, Fig. S2B." However, it is difficult for me to figure out what are the numbers referring to. For instance, is 11-26 referring to median survival of fRAG inoculated with three different concentrations of GFP+ leukemic cells or is 11-26 referring to median survival of fRAG, cRAG1, cRAG2 inoculated with 10^5 cells? It would be much clearer if the authors can provide the numbers for each pair-wise comparison, if not in the main text, then at least in the figure legend. In Fig. 5A-B, do the plots depict SVs in cRAG tumors or both cRAG and fRAG cells? Also in Fig. 5, why did 24 SVs give rise to 42 breakpoints, and not 48? Doesn't it take 2 breaks to accomplish rearrangement? In Fig. 6B-C, it is not clear how the recombination sizes were calculated. In the examples shown in Fig. 4, only cRAG1 tumors show intra-chromosomal joins (chr 12), while fRAG and cRAG2 tumors show exclusively inter-chromosomal joins.

      We appreciate the reviewer's feedback and have made the following revisions:

      (1) The text has been adjusted to rectify the previously mentioned error in the figure legends (page 1, lines 5-6).

      (2) We have clarified the intended message in the revised text (page 6, lines 129-130) and the figure legend (page 4-5, lines 107-113) for greater precision.

      (3) Figure 5A-B now presents an overview of all structural variants (SVs) identified in both cRAG and fRAG cells, offering a comprehensive comparison.

      (4) Among the analyzed SVs, 24 generated a total of 48 breakpoints, with 41 occurring within gene bodies and the remaining 7 in adjacent flanking sequences. This informs our exon-intron distribution profile analysis.

      (5) We have defined recombination sizes as ‘the DNA fragment size spanning the two breakpoints’ for clarity (page 10, lines 251-252).

      (6) All off-target recombinations identified in the genome-wide analyses of fRAG, cRAG1, and cRAG2 leukemic cells were determined to be intra-chromosomal joins, highlighting their specific nature within the genomic context.

      Insufficient details on certain reagents/methods. For instance, are the cRAG1/2 mice of the same genetic background as fRAG mice (C57BL/6 WT)? On Page 23, line 481, what is a cancer gene? How are they defined? In Fig. 3C, are the FACS plots gated on intact cells? Since apoptotic cells show high levels of gH2AX, I'm surprised that the fraction of gH2AX+ cells is so much lower in fRAG tumors compared to cRAG tumors. The in vitro VDJ assay shown in Fig 3B is not described in the Method section (although it is described in Fig S5b). Fig. 5A-B, do the plots depict SVs in cRAG tumors or both cRAG and fRAG cells?

      We are grateful for the reviewer's feedback and have incorporated their insights as follows:

      (1) We clarify that both cRAG1/2 and fRAG mice share the same genetic background, specifically the C57BL/6 WT strain, ensuring consistency across experimental models.

      (2) We define a 'cancer gene' as one harboring somatic mutations implicated in cancer. To support our analysis, we refer to the Catalogue Of Somatic Mutations In Cancer (COSMIC) at http://cancer.sanger.ac.uk/cosmic. COSMIC serves as the most extensive repository for understanding the role of somatic mutations in human cancers.

      (3) Upon thorough review of the raw data for γ-H2AX and the fluorescence-activated cell sorting (FACS) plots gated on intact cells, we propose that the observed discrepancies might stem from the limited sensitivity of the γ-H2AX flow cytometry detection method. This insight prompts our commitment to employing more efficient detection methodologies in forthcoming studies.

      (4) Detailed procedures for the in vitro V(D)J recombination assay have been included in the Methods section (page 15, lines 384-388) to enhance the manuscript's comprehensiveness and reproducibility.

      (5) The presented plots offer a comprehensive overview of structural variants (SVs) identified in both cRAG and fRAG cells, providing a holistic view of the genomic landscape across different models.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In the manuscript, the authors summarized and introduced the correlation between the non-core regions of RAG1 and RAG2 in BCR-ABL1+acute B lymphoblastic leukemia and off-target recombination which has certain innovative and clinical significance.

      Recommendations For The Authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I would suggest that the authors tone down some of their conclusions, which are not necessarily supported by their own data. in addition, there are some minor mistakes in figure assembly/presentation. For instance, I believe that the axes labels in Fig. 1E were flipped. BrdU should be on y-axis and 7-AAD on the x-axis. Fig. 3B, the y-axis contains a typo, it should be "CD90.1..." and not "D90.1...". In Fig. 5C, the numbers seem to be flipped, with 93% corresponding to cRAG1 and 100% to cRAG2 (compare with the description on page 23, lines 474-475). Fig. 5C, y-axis, "hybrid" is a typo. Page 3, line 59: The abbreviation of RSS has already been described earlier (p4, line 53).

      We thank the reviewer for these suggestions. We carefully checked the raw data and corrected these mistakes in the revised manuscript.

      Page 3, line 63: "signal" segment (commonly referred to as signal ends), not "signaling" segment.

      We have changed “signaling segment” to “signal ends in the revised manuscript. (page 3, lines 54-55)

      Page 3, lines 64-65: VDJ recombination promotes the development of both B and T cells, and aberrant recombination can cause both B and T cell lymphomas.

      The statement about the role of V(D)J recombination in B and T cell development and its link to lymphomagenesis is grounded in a substantial body of research. Theoretical frameworks and empirical studies delineate how aberrations in the recombination process can lead to genomic instability, potentially triggering oncogenic events. This connection is extensively documented in immunology and oncology literature, illustrating the critical balance between necessary genetic rearrangements for immune diversity and the risk of malignancy when these processes are dysregulated (Thomson, et al.,2020; Mendes, et al.,2014; Onozawa and Aplan,2012).

      Page 4, line 72: "recombinant dispensability" is not a commonly used phrase. Do the authors mean the say that the non-core regions of RAG1/2 are not strictly required for VDJ recombination?

      We thank the reviewers for their insightful suggestion. We have revised the sentence to read, 'Although the non-core regions of RAG1/2 are not essential for V(D)J recombination, the evolutionary conservation of these regions suggests their potential significance in vivo, possibly affecting RAG activity and expression in both quantitative and qualitative manners.' This revision appears on page 3, lines 61-62, in the revised manuscript.

      Fig. 4. It would have been nice to show at least one more cRAG1 tumor circus plot.

      We appreciate the reviewer's comment and concur with the suggestion. In future sequencing experiments, we will consider including additional replicates. However, due to time and financial constraints, the current sequencing effort was limited to a maximum of three replicates.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      In the manuscript, the authors summarized and introduced the correlation between the non-core regions of RAG1 and RAG2 in BCR-ABL1+acute B lymphoblastic leukemia and off-target recombination which has certain innovative and clinical significance. The following issues need to be addressed by the authors.

      (1) Authors should check and review extensively for improvements to the use of English.

      We thank the reviewer for their comment. With assistance from a native English speaker, we have carefully revised the manuscript to enhance its readability.

      (2) Authors should revise the conclusion so that the above can be clearly reviewed and summarized.

      The conclusion has been partially revised in the revised manuscript.

      (3) The article should state that the experiment was independently repeated three times.

      The experiment was repeated under the same conditions three times and the information has been descripted in Statistics section on page 19, lines 473-475 in the revised manuscript.

      (4) The article will be more convincing if it uses references in the last 5 years.

      We are grateful to the reviewer for their guidance in enhancing our manuscript. We have incorporated additional references from the past five years in the revised version.

      (5) Additional experiments are suggested to elucidate the molecular mechanisms related to off-target recombination.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. In future experiments, we plan to perform ChIP-seq analysis to investigate the relationship between chromatin accessibility and off-target effects, as well as to examine the impact of knocking out and overexpressing off-target genes on cancer development and progression.

      (6) It is suggested to further analyze the effect of the absence of non-core RAG region on the differentiation and development of peripheral B cells in mice by flow analysis and expression of B1 and B2.

      Thank you very much for highlighting this crucial issue. FACS analysis was performed, revealing that leukemia cells in peripheral B cells in mice did not express CD5. The data are presented as follows:

      Author response image 1.

      (7) Fig3A should have three biological replicates and the molecular weight should be labeled on the right side of the strip.

      Thank you for this suggestion. The experiment was independently repeated three times, and the molecular weights have been labeled on the right side of the bands in the revised version

      References:

      Mendes RD, Sarmento LM, Canté-Barrett K, Zuurbier L, Buijs-Gladdines JG, Póvoa V, Smits WK, Abecasis M, Yunes JA, Sonneveld E, Horstmann MA, Pieters R, Barata JT, Meijerink JP. 2014. PTEN microdeletions in T-cell acute lymphoblastic leukemia are caused by illegitimate RAG-mediated recombination events. BLOOD 124:567-578. doi:10.1182/blood-2014-03-562751

      Onozawa M, Aplan PD. 2012. Illegitimate V(D)J recombination involving nonantigen receptor loci in lymphoid malignancy. Genes Chromosomes Cancer 51:525-535. doi:10.1002/gcc.21942

      Thomson DW, Shahrin NH, Wang P, Wadham C, Shanmuganathan N, Scott HS, Dinger ME, Hughes TP, Schreiber AW, Branford S. 2020. Aberrant RAG-mediated recombination contributes to multiple structural rearrangements in lymphoid blast crisis of chronic myeloid leukemia. LEUKEMIA 34:2051-2063. doi:10.1038/s41375-020-0751-y

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Zhang et al. demonstrate that CD4<sup>+</sup> single positive (SP) thymocytes, CD4<sup>+</sup> recent thymic emigrants (RTE), and CD4<sup>+</sup> T naive (Tn) cells from Cd11c-p28-flox mice, which lack IL-27p28 selectively in Cd11c+ cells, exhibit a hyper-Th1 phenotype instead of the expected hyper Th2 phenotype. Using IL-27R-deficient mice, the authors confirm that this hyper-Th1 phenotype is due to IL-27 signaling via IL-27R, rather than the effects of monomeric IL-27p28. They also crossed Cd11c-p28-flox mice with autoimmune-prone Aire-deficient mice and showed that both T cell responses and tissue pathology are enhanced, suggesting that SP, RTE, and Tn cells from Cd11c-p28-flox mice are poised to become Th1 cells in response to self-antigens. Regarding mechanism, the authors demonstrate that SP, RTE, and Tn cells from Cd11c-p28-flox mice have reduced DNA methylation at the IFN-g and Tbx21 loci, indicating 'de-repression', along with enhanced histone tri-methylation at H3K4, indicating a 'permissive' transcriptional state. They also find evidence for enhanced STAT1 activity, which is relevant given the well-established role of STAT1 in promoting Th1 responses, and surprising given IL-27 is a potent STAT1 activator. This latter finding suggests that the Th1-inhibiting property of thymic IL-27 may not be due to direct effects on the T cells themselves.

      Strengths:

      Overall the data presented are high quality and the manuscript is well-reasoned and composed. The basic finding - that thymic IL-27 production limits the Th1 potential of SP, RTE, and Tn cells - is both unexpected and well described.

      Weaknesses:

      A credible mechanistic explanation, cellular or molecular, is lacking. The authors convincingly affirm the hyper-Th1 phenotype at epigenetic level but it remains unclear whether the observed changes reflect the capacity of IL-27 to directly elicit epigenetic remodeling in developing thymocytes or knock-on effects from other cell types which, in turn, elicit the epigenetic changes (presumably via cytokines). The authors propose that increased STAT1 activity is a driving force for the epigenetic changes and resultant hyper-Th1 phenotype. That conclusion is logical given the data at hand but the alternative hypothesis - that the hyper-STAT1 response is just a downstream consequence of the hyper-Th1 phenotype - remains equally likely. Thus, while the discovery of a new anti-inflammatory function for IL-27 within the thymus is compelling, further mechanistic studies are needed to advance the finding beyond phenomenology.

      Thank you for your insightful comments and suggestions. We appreciate your feedback and have carefully considered the concerns raised regarding the mechanistic explanation of our findings. To address the issue of whether developing thymocytes are the direct targets of IL-27, we plan to conduct further studies using Cd4-IL-27ra knockout mice or mixed bone marrow chimeras consisting of wildtype and IL-27ra knockout cells. This approach will help us determine if IL-27 directly induces epigenetic remodeling in thymocytes or if the observed effects are secondary to influences from other cell types.

      Regarding the potential autocrine loop contributing to STAT1 hyperactivation, we have performed preliminary experiments by adding IFN-γ antibody to CD4<sup>+</sup> T cell cultures and observed no significant impact on STAT1 phosphorylation. If necessary, we will further investigate this possibility in vivo using Cd4-Ifng and CD11c-p28 double knockout mice.

      The detailed mechanisms underlying STAT1 hyperactivation remain to be elucidated. Recent studies have shown that IL-27p28 can act as an antagonist of gp130-mediated signaling. Structural analyses have also demonstrated that IL-27p28 interacts with EBI3 and the two receptor subunits IL-27Rα and gp130. Given these findings and the similar phenotypes observed in p28 and IL-27ra deficient mice, we speculate that the deficiency of either p28 or IL-27ra may increase the availability of gp130 for signaling by other cytokines. We will focus our future research on gp130-related cytokines to identify potential candidates that could lead to enhanced STAT1 activation in the absence of p28. Alternatively, the release of EBI3 in p28-deficient conditions may promote its interaction with other cytokine subunits. IL-35, which is composed of EBI3 and p35, is of particular interest given the involvement of IL-27Rα in its signaling pathway.

      To narrow down the candidate cytokines, we reanalyzed single-cell RNA sequencing data from CD11c-cre p28<sup>f/f</sup> and wild-type thymocytes (Signal Transduct Target Ther. 2022, DOI: 10.1038/s41392-022-01147-z). Our analysis revealed that thymic dendritic cells (DCs) were categorized into two distinct clusters, with both Il12a (p35, which forms IL-35 with EBI3) and Clcf1 (CLCF1) being upregulated in CD11c-cre p28<sup>f/f</sup> mice. In CD4 single-positive (SP) thymocytes, the expression levels of gp130 and IL-12Rβ2 (the receptor for IL-35) were comparable between knockout and wild-type mice. However, the mRNA levels of Lifr and Cntfr were low in CD4 SP thymocytes.

      Author response image 1.

      Single-cell RNA sequencing data from CD11c-cre p28<sup>f/f</sup> (KO) and wild-type thymocytes (Signal Transduct Target Ther. 2022, DOI: 10.1038/s41392-022-01147-z).

      We have planned to assess the protein levels of IL-35 and CLCF1 in dendritic cells, as well as their respective receptors, to evaluate their effects on STAT1 phosphorylation in CD4<sup>+</sup> thymocytes from both wild-type and p28-deficient mice. Unfortunately, we have encountered challenges with the mouse breeding and anticipate that it will take approximately six months to obtain the appropriate genotype necessary to complete these experiments.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Naïve CD4 T cells in CD11c-Cre p28-floxed mice express highly elevated levels of proinflammatory IFNg and the transcription factor T-bet. This phenotype turned out to be imposed by thymic dendritic cells (DCs) during CD4SP T cell development in the thymus [PMID: 23175475]. The current study affirms these observations, first, by developmentally mapping the IFNg dysregulation to newly generated thymic CD4SP cells [PMID: 23175475], second, by demonstrating increased STAT1 activation being associated with increased T-bet expression in CD11c-Cre p28-floxed CD4 T cells [PMID: 36109504], and lastly, by confirming IL-27 as the key cytokine in this process [PMID: 27469302]. The authors further demonstrate that such dysregulated cytokine expression is specific to the Th1 cytokine IFNg, without affecting the expression of the Th2 cytokine IL-4, thus proposing a role for thymic DC-derived p28 in shaping the cytokine response of newly generated CD4 helper T cells. Mechanistically, CD4SP cells of CD11c-Cre p28-floxed mice were found to display epigenetic changes in the Ifng and Tbx21 gene loci that were consistent with increased transcriptional activities of IFNg and T-bet mRNA expression. Moreover, in autoimmune Aire-deficiency settings, CD11c-Cre p28-floxed CD4 T cells still expressed significantly increased amounts of IFNg, exacerbating the autoimmune response and disease severity. Based on these results, the investigators propose a model where thymic DC-derived IL-27 is necessary to suppress IFNg expression by CD4SP cells and thus would impose a Th2-skewed predisposition of newly generated CD4 T cells in the thymus, potentially relevant in autoimmunity.

      Strengths:

      Experiments are well-designed and executed. The conclusions are convincing and supported by the experimental results.

      Weaknesses:

      The premise of the current study is confusing as it tries to use the CD11c-p28 floxed mouse model to explain the Th2-prone immune profile of newly generated CD4SP thymocytes. Instead, it would be more helpful to (1) give full credit to the original study which already described the proinflammatory IFNg+ phenotype of CD4 T cells in CD11c-p28 floxed mice to be mediated by thymic dendritic cells [PMID: 23175475], and then, (2) build on that to explain that this study is aimed to understand the molecular basis of the original finding.

      In its essence, this study mostly rediscovers and reaffirms previously reported findings, but with different tools. While the mapping of epigenetic changes in the IFNg and T-bet gene loci and the STAT1 gene signature in CD4SP cells are interesting, these are expected results, and they only reaffirm what would be assumed from the literature. Thus, there is only incremental gain in new insights and information on the role of DC-derived IL-27 in driving the Th1 phenotype of CD4SP cells in CD11c-p28 floxed mice.

      Thank you for your valuable comments and suggestions. We appreciate your input and have carefully reviewed the concerns raised regarding the premise and novelty of our study.

      Indeed, the current study is built upon the foundational work of Zhang et al. (PMID: 23175475), which first described the proinflammatory IFN-γ<sup>+</sup> phenotype of CD4 T cells in CD11c-p28 floxed mice mediated by thymic dendritic cells. We have cited this study multiple times in our manuscript to acknowledge its significance. Our goal was to expand on this original finding by exploring the functional bias of newly generated CD4<sup>+</sup> T cells, elucidating the mechanisms underlying the hyper-Th1 phenotype in the absence of thymic DC-derived IL-27, and exploring its relevance in pathogenesis of autoimmunity.

      Our study revisits this phenomenon with a focus on the molecular and epigenetic changes that drive the Th1 bias in CD4SP cells. We demonstrated that the deletion of p28 in thymic dendritic cells leads to an unexpected hyperactivation of STAT1, which is associated with epigenetic modifications that favor Th1 differentiation. These findings provide a deeper understanding of the molecular basis behind the original observation of the Th1-skewed phenotype in CD11c-p28 floxed mice.

      However, as you pointed out, there is still a gap in understanding the precise link between p28 deficiency and STAT1 activation. We acknowledge that our study primarily reaffirms previously reported findings with different tools and approaches. While the mapping of epigenetic changes in the IFN-γ and T-bet gene loci and the STAT1 gene signature in CD4SP cells are interesting, they are indeed expected results based on the existing literature. This limits the novelty and incremental gain in new insights provided by our study.

      To address this gap and enhance the novelty of our findings, we plan to conduct further investigations to elucidate the detailed mechanisms connecting p28 deficiency to STAT1 hyperactivation. We will explore potential compensatory pathways or alternative signaling mechanisms that may contribute to the observed epigenetic changes and Th1 bias. Additionally, we will consider the broader impact of IL-27 deficiency on the thymic environment and its downstream effects on CD4<sup>+</sup> T cell differentiation.

      We appreciate your feedback and will work to strengthen the mechanistic underpinnings of our study. We believe that these additional efforts will provide a more comprehensive understanding of the role of DC-derived IL-27 in shaping the Th1 phenotype of CD4SP cells and contribute meaningful insights to the field.

      Altogether, the major issues of this study remain unresolved:

      (1) It is still unclear why the p28-deficiency in thymic dendritic cells would result in increased STAT1 activation in CD4SP cells. Based on their in vitro experiments with blocking anti-IFNg antibodies, the authors conclude that it is unlikely that the constitutive activation of STAT1 would be a secondary effect due to autocrine IFNg production by CD4SP cells. However, this possibility should be further tested with in vivo models, such as Ifng-deficient CD11c-p28 floxed mice. Alternatively, is this an indirect effect by other IFNg producers in the thymus, such as iNKT cells? It is necessary to explain what drives the STAT1 activation in CD11c-p28 floxed CD4SP cells in the first place.

      Thank you for your insightful suggestions. We appreciate your feedback and are committed to addressing the critical questions raised regarding the mechanisms underlying STAT1 activation in CD4SP cells in the context of p28 deficiency in thymic dendritic cells.

      To further investigate the potential autocrine loop for IFN-γ production, we will conduct in vivo studies using Cd4-Ifng and CD11c-p28 double knockout mice. This model will allow us to directly test whether IFN-γ produced by CD4SP cells themselves contributes to the observed STAT1 activation. Additionally, this approach will help exclude the possibility of indirect effects from other IFN-γ-producing cells in the thymus, such as invariant natural killer T (iNKT) cells, as suggested by the reviewer.

      As you correctly pointed out, a key unanswered question is what drives the initial STAT1 activation in CD4SP cells of CD11c-p28 floxed mice. Our current hypothesis is that p28 deficiency enhances the responsiveness of developing thymocytes to STAT1-activating cytokines. This hypothesis is supported by several lines of evidence:

      (1) Functional Antagonism: Recent studies have shown that IL-27p28 can act as an antagonist of gp130-mediated signaling. This suggests that in the absence of p28, the inhibitory effect of IL-27p28 on downstream signaling may be lost, leading to increased sensitivity to other cytokines that activate STAT1.

      (2) Structural Insights: Structural studies have demonstrated that IL-27p28 is centrally positioned within the complex formed with EBI3 and the two receptor subunits IL-27Rα and gp130. This positioning implies that p28 deficiency could disrupt the balance of cytokine signaling pathways involving these components.

      (3)  Phenotypic Similarity: We have observed a similar hyper-Th1 phenotype in mice lacking either p28 or IL-27ra. This similarity suggests that the absence of p28 may lead to increased availability of gp130 for signaling by other cytokines, thereby enhancing STAT1 activation.

      Based on these considerations, we hypothesize that the deficiency of p28 results in a greater availability of gp130 to transduce signals from other cytokines, ultimately leading to enhanced STAT1 activation in CD4SP cells. To identify the specific cytokine(s) responsible for this effect, we will focus on gp130-related cytokines, as outlined in our response to Reviewer 1. This will involve reanalysis of single-cell RNA sequencing data and further experimental validation to pinpoint the candidate cytokines driving the observed STAT1 hyperactivation.

      We are confident that these additional studies will provide a clearer understanding of the mechanisms linking p28 deficiency in thymic dendritic cells to increased STAT1 activation in CD4SP cells. We appreciate your guidance and look forward to sharing our findings.

      (2) It is also unclear whether CD4SP cells are the direct targets of IL-27 p28. The cell-intrinsic effects of IL-27 p28 signaling in CD4SP cells should be assessed and demonstrated, ideally by CD4SP-specific deletion of IL-27Ra, or by establishing bone marrow chimeras of IL-27Ra germline KO mice.

      Thanks for the suggestions. Further studies will be performed to test whether developing thymocytes are the direct targets of IL-27 using Cd4-IL-27ra knockout mice or mixed bone marrow chimeras of wildtype and IL-27ra knockout cells. Unfortunately, we have encountered challenges with the mouse breeding and anticipate that it will take approximately six months to obtain the appropriate genotype necessary to complete these experiments.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Is the hyper-STAT1 response seen in T cells from Cd11c-p28-flox mice due to increased availability and/or increased responsiveness to STAT1 activating cytokines? Studies, where SP, RTE, and Tn cells are pulsed ex vivo with IL-27 and/or other STAT1-activating cytokines, would address the latter (with STAT1 phosphorylation as the major readout). Given the ability of IL-27 to activate STAT3, this pathway should also be addressed. It would be of interest if STAT1 signaling is selectively impaired, as suggested by the work of Twohig et al. (doi: 10.1038/s41590-019-0350-0.)(which should be cited and discussed).

      Thank you for your insightful suggestions. We appreciate your input and are committed to addressing the critical questions raised regarding the mechanisms underlying the hyper-activation of STAT1 in T cells from Cd11c-p28-flox mice.

      The detailed mechanisms driving the hyper-activation of STAT1 remain to be fully elucidated. Recent studies have shown that IL-27p28 can act as an antagonist of gp130-mediated signaling. Structural analyses have also demonstrated that IL-27p28 interacts with EBI3 and the two receptor subunits IL-27Rα and gp130. Considering these findings and the similar phenotypes observed in p28 and IL-27ra deficient mice, we speculate that the deficiency of either p28 or IL-27ra may increase the availability of gp130 for signaling by other cytokines. This could potentially enhance the responsiveness of developing thymocytes to STAT1-activating cytokines. We will focus our future research on gp130-related cytokines to identify the candidate(s) responsible for the enhanced STAT1 activation in the absence of p28. Alternatively, the release of EBI3 in the absence of p28 may facilitate its coupling with other cytokine subunits. IL-35, which is composed of EBI3 and p35, is of particular interest given the involvement of IL-27Rα in its signaling pathway.

      To narrow down the candidate cytokines, we reanalyzed single-cell RNA sequencing data from CD11c-cre p28<sup>f/f</sup> and wild-type thymocytes (Signal Transduct Target Ther. 2022, DOI: 10.1038/s41392-022-01147-z). Our analysis revealed that thymic dendritic cells (DCs) were categorized into two distinct clusters, with both Il12a (p35, which forms IL-35 with EBI3) and Clcf1 (CLCF1) being upregulated in CD11c-cre p28<sup>f/f</sup> mice. In CD4 single-positive (SP) thymocytes, the expression levels of gp130 and IL-12Rβ2 (the receptor for IL-35) were comparable between knockout and wild-type mice. However, the mRNA levels of Lifr and Cntfr were low in CD4 SP thymocytes.

      Single-cell RNA sequencing data from CD11c-cre p28<sup>f/f</sup> (KO) and wild-type thymocytes (Signal Transduct Target Ther. 2022, DOI: 10.1038/s41392-022-01147-z).

      We have planned to assess the protein levels of IL-35 and CLCF1 in dendritic cells, as well as their respective receptors, to evaluate their effects on STAT1 phosphorylation in CD4<sup>+</sup> thymocytes from both wild-type and p28-deficient mice. Unfortunately, we have encountered challenges with the mouse crosses and anticipate that it will take approximately six months to obtain the appropriate genotype necessary to complete these experiments.

      As you correctly noted, the ability of IL-27 to activate STAT3 signaling is an important consideration. We have carefully examined this pathway in our current study, and our results indicate that neither total nor phosphorylated STAT3 and STAT4 were found to be altered with IL-27p28 ablation (Figure 5B). This suggests that the impact is indeed specific to the STAT1 axis. We will also consider the possibility of selective impairment of STAT1 signaling, as suggested by the work of Twohig et al. (doi: 10.1038/s41590-019-0350-0), which we will cite and discuss in our revised manuscript.

      We appreciate your guidance and will work diligently to address these questions in our future studies. We look forward to sharing our findings and contributing to a deeper understanding of the role of IL-27 in the regulation of STAT1 activation in T cells.

      (2) It may be that the hyper-Th1 phenotype is not due to cell-intrinsic differences in STAT1 signaling (see Major Point 1) but rather, hyper-responsiveness to TCR + Co-stimulation (as provided in the re-stim assays used throughout). This issue is particularly relevant for the ChIP studies where the author notes that, "...we chose to treat the cells with anti-CD3 and anti-CD28 for 3 days prior to the assay". Why not treat these cells ex vivo with STAT1-activating cytokines instead of anti-CD3/CD28? The current methodology makes it impossible to distinguish between enhanced TCR/CD28 and cytokine signaling, and ultimately does not address SP, RTE, and Tn cells (since they are now activated, blasts.).

      Thank you for raising this important point. We appreciate your feedback and fully recognize the limitations of our current methodology, which uses anti-CD3/CD28 stimulation for ChIP experiments. This approach indeed complicates the distinction between enhanced TCR/CD28 signaling and cytokine-mediated STAT1 activation, particularly in the context of SP, RTE, and Tn cells, which become activated blasts under these conditions.

      To address these concerns and provide more precise insights into the mechanisms underlying the hyper-Th1 phenotype, we are revising our experimental strategy. Specifically, we are shifting our focus to directly investigate the role of STAT1-activating cytokines in the absence of p28. Based on our previous analysis and re-evaluation of single-cell RNA sequencing data, we have identified IL-35 and CLCF1 as the most promising candidate cytokines.

      We are now planning to perform ChIP experiments using these cytokines directly, rather than relying on TCR + co-stimulation. This approach will allow us to more accurately evaluate the impact of these cytokines on STAT1 signaling in CD4<sup>+</sup> T cells. By treating cells ex vivo with IL-35 and CLCF1, we aim to elucidate whether the observed hyper-Th1 phenotype is driven by enhanced responsiveness to these cytokines, independent of TCR/CD28 signaling.

      We regret to inform you that we have encountered unforeseen challenges with mouse crosses, which have delayed our progress. As a result, we anticipate a delay of approximately six months to obtain the appropriate genotypes necessary to complete these experiments. We understand the importance of these revisions and are committed to overcoming these challenges to provide a more robust and accurate analysis.

      (3) Studies involving STAT1-deficient mice are necessary (ideally with STAT1 deficiency restricted to the T cell compartment). At a minimum, it must be confirmed that these phenocopy Cd11c-p28-flox mice in terms of SP, RTE, and Tn cells (and their Th1-like character). If a similar hyper-Th1 phenotype is not seen, then the attendant hyper STAT1 response can only be viewed as a red herring.

      Thank you for raising this important consideration. We acknowledge the significance of addressing the role of STAT1 specifically within the T cell compartment to validate the mechanisms underlying the hyper-Th1 phenotype observed in Cd11c-p28-flox mice.

      We agree that studies involving STAT1-deficient mice, particularly with STAT1 deficiency restricted to the T cell compartment, are essential to confirm whether the hyper-Th1 phenotype is directly driven by STAT1 hyperactivation in T cells. Ideally, such studies would help determine if STAT1 deficiency in T cells phenocopies the Cd11c-p28-flox mice, particularly in terms of the SP, RTE, and Tn cells and their Th1-like characteristics.

      Unfortunately, we currently face challenges in obtaining and breeding the appropriate STAT1 conditional knockout mice with T cell-specific deletion. This has limited our ability to conduct these experiments in a timely manner. However, we recognize the importance of these studies and are actively working to secure the necessary resources and models to address this critical question.

      We understand that without these experiments, any conclusions drawn about the role of STAT1 hyperactivation in driving the hyper-Th1 phenotype must be considered with caution. If a similar hyper-Th1 phenotype is not observed in STAT1-deficient T cells, then the hyper-STAT1 response may indeed be a secondary or compensatory effect rather than a primary driver.

      We are committed to pursuing these studies and will prioritize them in our future work. We will keep you informed of our progress and will update the manuscript with the results of these experiments once completed. We appreciate your patience and understanding as we work to address this important aspect of our research.

      (4) The authors mine their RNA-seq data using a STAT1 geneset sourced from studies involving IL-21 as the upstream stimulus. Why was this geneset was chosen? It is true that IL-21 can activate STAT1 but STAT3 is typically viewed as its principal signaling pathway. There are many more appropriate genesets, especially from studies where T cells are cultured with traditional STAT1 stimuli (e.g. IL-27 in Hirahara et al., Immunity 2015 or interferons in Iwata et al., Immunity 2017)doi: 10.1016/j.immuni.2015.04.014, 10.1016/j.immuni.2017.05.005).

      Thank you for your insightful comments. We appreciate your attention to the choice of the STAT1 gene set in our RNA-seq analysis.

      Initially, we selected the STAT1 gene set from a study involving IL-21 stimulation (GSE63204) because IL-21 is known to activate STAT1, despite STAT3 being its principal signaling pathway. However, we acknowledge that this choice may not have been optimal given the context of our study, which focuses on the role of IL-27 and its impact on STAT1 signaling in T cells.

      We agree that gene sets derived from studies using more canonical STAT1 stimuli, such as IL-27 or interferons, would be more relevant for our analysis. In response to your suggestion, we have revised our approach and adopted a gene set from GSE65621, which compares STAT1-/- and wild-type CD4 T cells following IL-27 stimulation. This gene set is more aligned with the focus of our study and provides a more appropriate reference for identifying STAT1-activated genes.

      Our re-analysis revealed that 270 genes (FPKM > 1, log2FC > 2) were downregulated in STAT1-/- cells compared to wild-type cells, which we defined as STAT1-activated genes. Notably, approximately 50% of the upregulated differentially expressed genes (55 out of 137) in our dataset fell into the category of STAT1-activated genes, while none were classified as STAT1-suppressed genes (Figure 4B). Furthermore, Gene Set Enrichment Analysis (GSEA) demonstrated significant enrichment of STAT1-activated genes in the transcriptome of CD4 SP thymocytes from the knockout mice (NES = 1.67, nominal p-value = 10<sup>-16</sup>, Figure 4D).

      These findings support our conclusion that IL-27p28 deficiency leads to enhanced STAT1 activity in CD4 SP thymocytes. We believe that using a more relevant gene set has strengthened our analysis and provided clearer insights into the molecular mechanisms underlying the observed phenotype.

      We have cited the relevant studies (Hirahara et al., Immunity 2015; Iwata et al., Immunity 2017) to provide context for our revised analysis and to acknowledge the importance of canonical STAT1 stimuli in T cell signaling. We appreciate your guidance and are confident that these revisions have improved the robustness and relevance of our findings.

      (5) Given the ability of IL-27 to activate STAT1 in T cells, it is surprising that SP, RTE, and Tn cells from Cd11c-p28-flox mice exhibit more STAT1 signaling than WT controls. If not IL-27, then what is the stimulus for this STAT1 activity? The authors rule out autocrine IFN-g production in vitro (not in vivo) but provide no further insight.

      Thank you for raising this important question. We appreciate your interest in understanding the source of enhanced STAT1 signaling in SP, RTE, and Tn cells from Cd11c-p28-flox mice, especially given the role of IL-27 in activating STAT1 in T cells. As previously discussed, we have identified IL-35 and CLCF1 as the most likely candidate cytokines driving the observed STAT1 activity in the absence of p28. These cytokines are of particular interest due to their potential to activate STAT1 and their relevance in the context of our study.

      To address the question of what drives the enhanced STAT1 signaling, we are planning to perform ChIP experiments using these cytokines directly. This approach will allow us to evaluate their impact on STAT1 signaling more precisely, without relying on TCR + co-stimulation. By treating cells ex vivo with IL-35 and CLCF1, we aim to determine whether these cytokines are responsible for the increased STAT1 activity observed in Cd11c-p28-flox mice.

      We acknowledge that ruling out autocrine IFN-γ production in vitro, as we have done, does not fully address the potential role of IFN-γ in vivo. Therefore, we are also considering additional in vivo experiments to further investigate this possibility. These studies will help us determine whether other sources of IFN-γ or other cytokines contribute to the observed STAT1 hyperactivation. Unfortunately, due to unforeseen challenges with mouse crosses, we anticipate a delay of approximately six months to obtain the appropriate genotypes necessary for these experiments. We are actively working to resolve these challenges and will update the manuscript with the results of these experiments upon completion.

      (6) The RNAseq data affirms that SP, RTE, and Tn cells from Cd11c-p28-flox mice exhibit more STAT1 signaling than WT controls. However, this does little to explain the attendant hyper-Th1 phenotype. Is there evidence that epigenetic machinery is deregulated (to account for changes in DNA. histone methylation)? Were IFN-g and Tbet among these few observed DEG? If so, then this should be highlighted. If not, then the authors must address why not. Are there clues as to why STAT1 signing is exaggerated? Also, the hyper-STAT1 effect should be better described using more rigorous STAT1- and interferon-signature genesets (see the work of Virginia Pascual, Anne O'Garra).

      Thank you for your valuable feedback and suggestions. We appreciate your interest in understanding the mechanisms underlying the hyper-Th1 phenotype observed in Cd11c-p28-flox mice. Below, we address each of your points in detail:

      (1) Epigenetic Regulation:

      We have conducted a thorough analysis of the global levels of key histone modifications, including H3K4me3, H3K9me3, and H3K27me3, as well as the mRNA expression of the enzymes responsible for catalyzing these marks. Our results indicate that there are no significant differences in these histone modifications or the expression of the associated enzymes between Cd11c-p28<sup>f/f</sup> and wildtype mice (Figure 3-figure supplement 1A-C). This suggests that the enhanced STAT1 signaling is not a consequence of broad epigenetic deregulation. Instead, we hypothesize that the observed changes may be driven by more specific molecular mechanisms, such as cytokine signaling pathways.

      (2) IFN-γ and Tbx21 Expression:

      Regarding the expression of Th1-associated genes, our analysis revealed a modest induction of ifng and tbx21 (encoding T-bet) in the CD4SP population following TCR stimulation. However, the baseline expression levels of these genes were quite low in freshly isolated CD4SP cells. Specifically, ifng was undetectable, and tbx21 had an FPKM of 0.29 in wildtype mice compared to 1.05 in Cd11c-p28<sup>f/f</sup> mice. While these findings indicate some upregulation of Th1-associated genes, the overall expression levels remain relatively low, suggesting that additional factors may contribute to the hyper-Th1 phenotype.

      (3) STAT1 Signature Genesets:

      We have revised our analysis to incorporate more rigorous STAT1 and interferon-signature genesets, as suggested. We have adopted gene sets from well-established studies, including those by Virginia Pascual and Anne O'Garra, to provide a more comprehensive and accurate assessment of STAT1 signaling. This approach has enhanced our ability to identify and characterize the genes involved in the STAT1 pathway, providing clearer insights into the exaggerated STAT1 signaling observed in our model.

      We appreciate your guidance and are committed to refining our analysis to provide a more detailed understanding of the mechanisms driving the hyper-Th1 phenotype in Cd11c-p28-flox mice. We will continue to explore the potential roles of cytokines such as IL-35 and CLCF1, as well as other factors that may contribute to the observed changes in STAT1 signaling and Th1 differentiation. We look forward to sharing our updated findings and further discussing these mechanisms in our revised manuscript.

      (7) Is the hyper-Th1 phenotype of SP, RTE, and Tn cells from Cd11c-p28-flox mice unique to the CD4 compartment? Are developing CD8<sup>+</sup> cells similarly prone to increased STAT1 signaling and IFN-g production?

      Thank you for raising this important point. Our data indeed suggests that the hyper-Th1 phenotype observed in SP, RTE, and Tn cells from Cd11c-p28<sup>f/f</sup> mice is unique to the CD4<sup>+</sup> T cell compartment. Specifically, we found that while CD4<sup>+</sup> SP cells from Cd11c-p28<sup>f/f</sup> mice exhibited a significant upregulation in IL-27 receptor expression (both IL27Ra and gp130) compared to wild-type (WT) mice, CD8<sup>+</sup> SP cells from the same genotype showed markedly lower expression of these receptor subunits (Figure 1C in Sci Rep. 2016 Jul 29:6:30448. DOI: 10.1038/srep30448). This finding is further supported by our observation that the phosphorylation levels of STAT1, STAT3, and STAT4, downstream targets of IL-27 signaling, were comparable between CD8 SP cells from Cd11c-p28<sup>f/f</sup> and WT mice (Author response image 1). Additionally, we observed no significant difference in IFN-γ and granzyme B production between naïve CD8 T cells isolated from the lymph nodes of the two genotypes (Author response image 1). Taken together, these results suggest that the enhanced Th1 differentiation and IFN-γ production seen in the CD4<sup>+</sup> T cell population from Cd11c-p28<sup>f/f</sup> mice is not recapitulated in the CD8<sup>+</sup> T cell lineage.

      Author response image 2.

      (A) Intracellular staining was performed with freshly isolated thymocytes from Cd11c-p28<sup>f/f</sup> mice and WT littermates mice using antibodies against phosphorylated STAT1 (Y701), STAT3 (Y705), and STAT4 (Y693). The mean fluorescence intensity (MFI) for CD8 SP from three independent experiments (mean ± SD, n=3). (B) CD8<sup>+</sup> naive T cells were cultured under Th0 conditions for 3 days. The frequency of IFN-γ-, and granzyme B-producing CD8<sup>+</sup> T cells were determined analyzed by intracellular staining. Representative dot plots (left) and quantification (right, mean ± SD, n=6).

      Minor points and questions

      (1) Line 84 - Villarino et al. and Pflanz et al. are mis-referenced. Neither involves Trypanosome studies. The former is on Toxoplasma infection and, thus, should be properly referenced in the following sentence.

      Thank you for pointing out this error. You are correct that the references to Villarino et al. and Pflanz et al. were misapplied in the context of Trypanosome studies. Villarino et al. focuses on Toxoplasma infection, and we appreciate your guidance to ensure accurate citation. We will correct this in the manuscript and properly cite the studies in their appropriate contexts. Thank you for your vigilance in maintaining the accuracy of our references.

      (2) T-bet protein should also be measured by cytometry

      We sincerely thank the reviewer for the valuable suggestion regarding the measurement of T-bet protein levels. In response to this comment, we have performed additional experiments to quantify T-bet protein expression using flow cytometry. The results of these analyses have been incorporated into the revised manuscript as Figure 1F.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) When new mouse strains are generated in this study, there is no comment on whether there are any changes in the frequency or cell number of CD4 T cells. For instance, in Aire-deficient CD11c-p28 floxed mice, it should be noted whether CD4SP, naïve CD4, and CD4 RTE are all the same in frequency and number compared to their littermate controls. Also, is there any effect on the generation of these thymocytes?

      We sincerely thank the reviewer for raising this important point regarding the potential changes in the frequency and cell numbers of CD4<sup>+</sup> T cells in the newly generated mouse strains. In response to the reviewer’s question, we would like to clarify the following:

      (1) Impact of Aire deficiency on CD4<sup>+</sup> T Cells:

      As previously reported by us and others (Aging Dis. 2019, doi: 10.14336/AD.2018.0608; Science. 2002, doi: 10.1126/science.1075958), Aire deficiency does not significantly alter the overall number or frequency of CD4 single-positive (CD4SP) thymocytes, recent thymic emigrants (RTEs), or naïve CD4<sup>+</sup> T cells. However, it profoundly affects their composition and functional properties, leading to the escape of autoreactive T cells and subsequent autoimmune manifestations.

      (2) Observations in Cd11c-p28<sup>f/f</sup>Aire<sup>-/-</sup> mice:

      In our study, we observed that the number and frequency of CD4<sup>+</sup> T cells in the spleen and lymph nodes were comparable among Cd11c-p28<sup>f/f</sup>, Aire<sup>-/-</sup>, and Cd11c-p28<sup>f/f</sup>Aire<sup>-/-</sup> mice, and WT controls. This suggests that the genetic modifications did not significantly impact the overall development or peripheral maintenance of CD4<sup>+</sup> T cells.

      Author response image 3.

      (3) Challenges in assessing RTEs in double knockout mice:

      To accurately assess RTEs in the double knockout mice, it would be necessary to cross these mice with Rag-GFP reporter mice, which specifically label RTEs. However, breeding the appropriate mouse strain for this analysis would require additional time and resources, which were beyond the scope of the current study.

      (2) There are a couple of typos throughout the manuscript. For example, line 91: IL-27Rα or line 313: phenotype.

      We apologize for the typographical errors. We have carefully reviewed the entire manuscript and corrected all identified mistakes, including those on line 91 (IL-27Rα) and line 305 (phenotype).

      (4) The authors should show each data point on their bar graphs.

      Thank you for the suggestion. We have presented each data point on their bar graphs in the revised manuscript.

      (4) It should be noted from which organs the RTE and the naïve T cells were harvested.

      Thank you for the constructive suggestion. We isolated CD4<sup>+</sup> RTEs and mature naive CD4<sup>+</sup> T cells by sorting GFP<sup>+</sup>CD4<sup>+</sup>CD8<sup>-</sup>CD<sup>-</sup>NK1.1<sup>-</sup> cells (RTEs) and GFP<sup>-</sup>CD4<sup>+</sup>CD8<sup>-</sup>CD<sup>-</sup>CD44<sup>lo</sup> cells (naive T cells) from lymph nodes. This detail has been added to the manuscript on line 475.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      We thank the expert reviewers for their careful consideration of our manuscript and the feedback to help us strengthen our work. Please find a response to each reviewer’s comments below. We have included the original text from the reviewer in unbolded text and our response, immediately below, in bold text for clarity. 

      Reviewer #1:

      (1) Appetite is controlled, not regulated; please reword throughout.

      The reviewer raises a valid point that we have misused the word “regulate” in certain instances and “control” would be more accurate term. We have made adjustments throughout the manuscript.

      (2) One minor point that would further strengthen the data is a more distinct analysis of receptors that are characteristic of the different populations of neuronal and non-neuronal cells; this part could be improved. 

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion as we had not directly compared metabolicallyrelevant peptides/receptors between the mouse and rat DVC. We have included a list of selected receptors and neuropeptides expression (see Figure S13) for neuronal cells in mouse and rat. We have included this figure as a new supplement. There are some interesting insights from this data, including the relatively broad expression of Lepr in the rat compared with the mouse and the absence of proglucagon expressing neurons within the rat DVC.  

      Reviewer #2:

      (1) In some of the graphs, the label AP/NTS is used, but DVC would be more appropriate.

      We have reviewed the figures and legends to ensure appropriate use of DVC. We thank the reviewer for bringing this oversight to our attention.  

      (2) Line 124, p7 - Sprague Dawley RATS

      We have changed the text to “Sprague Dawley rats” 

      (3) Line 132, p7 - The phrase "were provided with given access to food" needs grammatical correction.

      We agree the text was poorly written. The sentence has been corrected to: “Wild-type Sprague

      Dawley rats (Charles River) were provided with ad libitum access to food (Purina Lab Diet

      5001) and water in temperature-controlled (22°C) rooms on a 12-hour light-dark cycle with daily health checks.” We have also reviewed the entire manuscript and made additional amendments where necessary.  

      (4) Page 15 - Mention that GFAP is a marker for astrocytes. Additionally, correct the typo "gfrap".

      We have corrected the misspelling of “Gfap” within the text. We appreciate the reviewer’s comment that there is value in communicating to the nonexpert reader that GFAP is a marker for astrocytes, however, as our data and that from other snRNA-Seq studies show that Gfap mRNA only labels a subset of astrocytes, our preference is to refrain from stating this. Our data suggests the sole use of Gfap as an astrocyte marker will not reflect the true astrocyte population.  

      (5) Line 432, p15 - What was the rationale for selecting clusters 23, 26, and 27?

      We chose to perform subclustering on these clusters because they displayed multiple cell identities when surveyed for the 473 marker genes as described in Methods 2.6. In order to separate these, the granularity was increased in them by sub-clustering.

      (6) Line 533, p18 - only 5 out of 34 neurons express GFRAL, which makes the language used a little bit misleading. As per the comment above, I would specify that only a subset (X%) of neurons express GFRAL, and apply the same approach for other markers.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this point. We agree the text, as written, was an oversimplification. We adjusted the text as recommended: that a subset (~15%) express detectable Gfral mRNA but is likely an underrepresentation due to the challenges in detecting lowly expressed transcripts such as Gfral.  

      (7) Line 547, p18 - This statement appears to refer to rat data specifically, rather than rodent data in general.

      The text has been corrected. 

      (8) Section 3.6 - The discussion on meal-related transcriptional programs in the murine DVC does not mention Figure S10A and B.

      We thank the reviewer for the observation. It is true that we do not discuss this figure. Fig10S is the integration of samples in treeArches, a necessary step to build the hierarchy in python so the learning algorithm uses only genes that are related to identity and not treatment, we obtained the same overlap of samples when we used R to assign identities. This figure demonstrates our integration was successful because it is only considering genes that are not-treatment related to establish identities, those which are expressed by cells regardless of their response to any treatment. For the meal-related analysis, we were interested in the genes that are changed by treatment, and this is why the analysis differed. We have included a sentence in the methods to clarify this point that states: " This sample integration was done to ensure that inter-sample variations were removed for the cell identity steps."

      (9) Page 5, citation 10 - the author cited a clinical trial for glucagon and GLP-1 receptor dual agonist survodutide for "DVC neurons' role in appetite and energy balance stems from their role as therapeutic targets for obesity". A more appropriate citation (such as a review) would be preferable.

      We appreciate the suggestion by the reviewer. We have updated our references to reflect a recent manuscript from the Alhadeff group which demonstrates the DVC acts as the target of GLP1-based therapies. We have also included a review as suggested 10.1038/s42255-02200606-9.

      (10) Line 52, p5 - a citation of obesity is needed, as the current ref only pertains to cancer cachexia.

      We have included a reference for obesity.  

      (11) In the discussion, it would be valuable to elaborate on the potential significance of DVCspecific glial cells (perhaps at the end of the second paragraph?).

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. Our discovery of a DVC-specific astrocyte transcriptional profile was underrepresented within the discussion. We have attempted to expand this discussion on the suspected roles for these DVC-specific astrocytes. Much of this discussion is based on the distinct localization pattern of Gfap mRNA in the DVC (see Image on Allen Brain ISH) which shows dense signal at the boundary of the AP and NTS. As astrocytes have well established roles in maintaining BBB integrity, it is our speculation that this is a major role of these cells. However, functional studies will be critical to assess the roles of these astrocytes in DVC biology.  

      (12) Line 683, p22 - Consider adding PMID: 38987598 which describes the dissociable GLP-1R circuits.

      We appreciate this recommendation – we have included this reference.  

      (13) The authors suggest that a possible explanation for the discrepancy between snRNA-Seq and in situ hybridization data is that Agrp and Hcrt mRNA reads in snRNA-Seq overwhelmingly mapped to non-coding regions. To what extent could this limitation affect other genes included in the current analyzed 10x datasets?

      As shown by Pool and cols. (https://doi.org/10.1038/s41592-023-02003-w) including intronic reads improves sensitivity and more accurately reflects endogenous gene expression. Therefore, including intronic reads is considered more of a strength than a limitation and is now default in platforms such as CellRanger. While including intronic reads for mapping snRNA-Seq data, we would advise corroboration of snRNA-Seq findings with published literature or detection of coding mRNA or protein. In our case, the detection of hypothalamic neuropeptide via snRNA-Seq data could not be verified by performing in situ hybridizations using probes that detect exons.  Therefore, Hcrt and Agrp having only intronic reads suggest a regulatory (reviewed in https://doi.org/10.3389/fgene.2018.00672) rather than a coding role in the DVC.

      (14) Given the manuscript's focus on feeding and metabolism, I believe a more detailed description and comparison of the transcription profile of known receptors, neurotransmitters, and neuropeptides involved in food intake and energy homeostasis between mice and rats would add value. Adding a curated list of key genes related to feeding regulation would be particularly informative.

      A similar request was made by reviewer #1. Please see the full response above. Briefly, we have performed additional analysis of the mouse and rat DVC data and included this data as an additional supplemental figure (Figure S13).  

      (15) Line 479-482, p17 - It would be helpful if the authors could quantify (e.g., number and/or percentage) the extent of TH and CCK co-expression.

      We have amended the text of the manuscript to include quantification of Cck and Th colocalization.  According to our snRNA-seq data, out of the 764 Th-expressing neurons, 80 coexpress Cck in the mouse (~10%). The Cck-expressing cells are more numerous, 3,821 in total.  

      (16) The number of animals used differs significantly between species, which the authors acknowledge as a limitation in the discussion. Since the authors took advantage of previously published mouse data sets (Ludwig and Dowsett data sets), I wonder if the authors could compare/integrate any rat data set currently available in rats as well to partially address the sample size disparity.

      We agree with the review that our rat database is considerably smaller than our mouse database, making comparisons between rat and mouse DVC challenging. We attempted to increase the size of our rat DVC atlas by incorporating publicly available rat DVC snRNA-Seq data (Reiner et al 2022). However, we found several issues with the quality of this data including low UMIs/cell and gene #/cell. For these reasons, we decided against merging these two datasets. So while relatively small, our rat DVC atlas uses high quality data and serves as a valuable starting point. By introducing TreeArches as a method to relatively easily incorporate new snRNA-Seq data into our own, it is our hope that future studies will do so and thus expand the rat DVC atlas we have built.    

      (17) In the Materials and Methods section, LiCl is mentioned as one of the treatment conditions; however, very little corresponding data are presented or discussed. Please include these results and elaborate on the rationale for selecting LiCl over other anorectic compounds.

      The reviewer is correct, some of the tissues used in this study were from animals treated with LiCl prior to euthanasia. Our intent was to contrast the transcriptional effects induced by LiCl ( an anorectic agent with aversive properties) with refeeding (a naturally rewarding and satiating stimuli). However, upon analyzing the data, we found very few transcriptional changes induced by LiCl. It is unclear to us whether this was a technical failure in the experiment and so did not elaborate on the results.  

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) The use of both sexes is indicated in the discussion, but methods and results do not address sex distribution in the investigated groups. Also, the groups could be more clearly described, e.g., the size of the 2 hour refeeding mouse group varies from n=10 to n=5.

      We have clarified the text, in line with the reviewer’s suggestion. There were two cohorts of fasted/ refed mice (n=5 each), so in the manuscript methods it is stated as n=10 because of this. The fasted-only group, which was not refed before euthanasia is a separate group, n=5.

      (2) Page 20, the last sentence needs to be reworded.

      We thank the reviewer for this recommendation. The text has been amended to improve clarity of the sentence. 

      (3) Page 22, lines 691-692 - this sentence needs to be reworded.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. The offending sentences have been amended.  

      (4) While the authors find transcriptional changes in all neuronal and non-neuronal cell types, which is interesting, the verification of known transcriptional changes (e.g., cFos) is unaddressed. cFos is a common gene upregulated with refeeding that was surprisingly not investigated, even though this should be a strong maker of proper meal-induced neuronal activation in the DMV. This is a missed opportunity either to verify the data set or to highlight important limitations if that had been attempted without success.

      This is a highly salient point made by the reviewer. Including Fos expression serves as an internal validation of our refeeding condition and the absence of Fos mRNA levels from the original manuscript was an oversight on our part. As shown in our volcano plot, between ad libitum fed and refed mice, there are two significantly Fos-associated genes upregulated in the refed group. Therefore, we are confident that the snRNA-Seq analysis accurately captured rapid changes in response to refeeding in the DVC. Only genes differentially expressed (log2 Fold-change >0.5 per group) were considered in the analysis. NS= non-significant.

      Author response image 1.

      (5) The focus on transmitter classification is highlighted, but surprisingly, the well-accepted distinction of GABAergic neurons by Slc32a1 was not used, instead, Gad1 and Gad2 were used as GABAergic markers. While this may be proper for the DMV, given numerous findings that Gad1/2 are not proper markers for GABAergic neurons and often co-expressed in glutamatergic populations, this confound should have been addressed to make a case if and why they would be proper markers in the DMV.

      The reviewer raises an important point. Indeed, there are discrepancies in expression between the Gad1/2 genes and Slc32a1 gene in other data sets. To analyze this within our data set, we examined the mainly GABAergic magnaclass 1 (see Slc32a1 UMAP plot below).  In magnaclass 1, only 5% and 3% of all neurons exclusively express solely Slc32a1 without either Gad1 or Gad2, respectively. In line with the reviewer’s comment, we found that 54% of neurons express either Gad1 or Gad2 but had no detectable Slc32a1. While our failure to detect more cells that co-express Slc32a1 and Gad genes may be partially due to the low expression of Slc32a1, it is also very likely that the DVC, like other brain regions, contains neurons that express the Gad enzymes without co-expression of Slc32a1.  

      This was very much the case with the GLP1 cell cluster, which we identified as the population which had the highest co-expression of excitatory and inhibitory markers. When we refined this analysis to look at expression of excitatory markers with Slc32a1 (and not other inhibitory genes), there was a marked reduction in the proportion of GLP1 neurons meeting this criterion. We find this is mainly due to the GLP1 cells expressing Gad2 (see plots below). We still find that there are some GLP1-expressing neurons that express excitatory markers and Slc32a1 and that the GLP1 neurons have a higher proportion of these co-expressing cells than other cell types.  

      We have extended our results section to reflect this and thank the reviewer for recommending this analysis.  

      Author response image 2.

      Slc32a1 expression across all neurons.  

      Author response image 3.

      Proportion of neurons in all cell identities expressing glutamatergic markers alone (dark green), Slc32a1 alone (light green), both glutamatergic markers and Slc32a1 (purple) or expressing neither Slc32a1 or glutamatergic markers  (grey).  

      Author response image 4.

      Balloon plot of Slc32a1, Gad1 and Gad2 across cell types. The GLP1-expressing neurons express Gad2 but minimal Slc32a1.  

      (6) The Pdgfra IHC as verification is great, but images are not very convincing in distinguishing the 2 (mouse) or 3 (rat) classes of cells. Why not compare Pdgfra and HuC/D co-localization by IHC and snRNAseq data (using the genes for HuC/D) in the mouse and in the rat? That would also clarify how specific HuC/D is for DMV neurons, or if it may also be expressed in non-neuronal populations.

      In agreement with the suggestion by the reviewer, we reanalyzed the snRNA-Seq data to identify the extent of the co-expression of HuC/HuD (i.e. Elavl3 and Elavl4 genes, respectively) in Pdgfra-expressing neurons. The gene expression of the 34 rat neurons belonging to this group are shown in the following heatmap in which each column represents one neuron. As shown, most neurons co-express Pdgfra and either HuC or HuD gene. In addition, we shown the UMAP plots of the rat neurons showing expression of the same genes regardless of the neuronal identity assigned. The Pdgfra neurons are visible in darker blue in the last UMAP plot. It's important to note that HuD is a more specific neuronal marker as shown in the table with the average expression of Elavl3/4 genes, since HuC is expressed by glial cells, specially OPCs and oligodendrocytes. As the HUC/D antibody detects both proteins, this complicates the interpretation of the immunofluorescent staining. While, the snRNA-Seq data suggests these Pdgfra expressing cells are indeed neurons (albeit a rare population), we aim to confirm this in separate studies.  

      Author response image 5.

      Author response image 6.

      Average expression (log-normalized counts) of HuC/D by layer 1 cell identity in the rat cells:

      Author response table 1.

      (7) The importance of sub-clustering for clusters 23, 26, and 27 is not immediately clear. Does this have any relevance to the mouse vs. rat data? Or fed, fast, refeeding data sets? Or is it just to show the depth that can be achieved?

      We appreciate that our justification was not clear within the manuscript. We have clarified our rationale below but briefly, in each case distinct transcriptional profiles were observed, and we pursued this by performing sub-clustering.   

      Cluster 23 was subclustered as it was found to contain both pre-myelinating and a subset of myelinating oligodendrocytes, therefore, to label them effectively in R instead of cell by cell, those subclusters showing pre-myelinating oligodendrocyte markers were instructed to be labeled as such in the dataset. The remaining cells were labeled as mature oligodendrocytes.

      A similar approach was taken for cluster 27 which contained pericytes, endothelial and smooth muscle cells (Figure S5).

      In the case of cluster 26, it was possible to find two subclusters of fibroblasts when mapping markers, so they were sub-clustered to instruct in R to label a group with one identity and the other, with the other identity. Therefore, the sub-clustering was done as an aid to label the different identities found through markers mapping (Table S5) in the first clustering round.

      All labels were transferred from mouse to rat data using treeArches, including those resulting from the sub-clustering of these clusters. Because this was done to establish identity, it should not be relevant for treatment analyses (e.g. fasted, refed) since they are built from markers that don't change by conditions but remain as identity markers. Indeed, our dataset has an even distribution of these subclusters among samples.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This work investigated the role of CXXC-finger protein 1 (CXXC1) in regulatory T cells. CXXC1-bound genomic regions largely overlap with Foxp3-bound regions and regions with H3K4me3 histone modifications in Treg cells. CXXC1 and Foxp3 interact with each other, as shown by co-immunoprecipitation. Mice with Treg-specific CXXC1 knockout (KO) succumb to lymphoproliferative diseases between 3 to 4 weeks of age, similar to Foxp3 KO mice. Although the immune suppression function of CXXC1 KO Treg is comparable to WT Treg in an in vitro assay, these KO Tregs failed to suppress autoimmune diseases such as EAE and colitis in Treg transfer models in vivo. This is partly due to the diminished survival of the KO Tregs after transfer. CXXC1 KO Tregs do not have an altered DNA methylation pattern; instead, they display weakened H3K4me3 modifications within the broad H3K4me3 domains, which contain a set of Treg signature genes. These results suggest that CXXC1 and Foxp3 collaborate to regulate Treg homeostasis and function by promoting Treg signature gene expression through maintaining H3K4me3 modification.

      Strengths:

      Epigenetic regulation of Treg cells has been a constantly evolving area of research. The current study revealed CXXC1 as a previously unidentified epigenetic regulator of Tregs. The strong phenotype of the knockout mouse supports the critical role CXXC1 plays in Treg cells. Mechanistically, the link between CXXC1 and the maintenance of broad H3K4me3 domains is also a novel finding.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) It is not clear why the authors chose to compare H3K4me3 and H3K27me3 enriched genomic regions. There are other histone modifications associated with transcription activation or repression. Please provide justification.

      Thank you for highlighting this important point. We chose to focus on H3K4me3 and H3K27me3 enriched genomic regions because these histone modifications are well-characterized markers of transcriptional activation and repression, respectively. H3K4me3 is predominantly associated with active promoters, while H3K27me3 marks repressed chromatin states, particularly in the context of gene regulation at promoters. This duality provides a robust framework for investigating the balance between transcriptional activation and repression in Treg cells. While histone acetylation, such as H3K27ac, is linked to enhancer activity and transcriptional elongation, our focus was on promoter-level regulation, where H3K4me3 and H3K27me3 are most relevant. Although other histone modifications could provide additional insights, we chose to focus on these two to maintain clarity and feasibility in our analysis. We have revised the text accordingly; please refer to Page 18, lines 353-356.

      (2) It is not clear what separates Clusters 1 and 3 in Figure 1C. It seems they share the same features.

      We apologize for not clarifying these clusters clearly. Cluster 1 and 3 are both H3K4me3 only group, with H3K4me3 enrichment and gene expression levels being higher in Cluster 1. At first, we divided the promoters into four categories because we wanted to try to classify them into four categories: H3K4me3 only, H3K27me3 only, H3K4me3-H3K27me3 co-occupied, and None. However, in actual classification, we could not distinguish H3K4me3-H3K27me3 co-occupied group. Instead, we had two categories of H3K4me3 only, with cluster 1 having a higher enrichment level for H3K4me3 and gene expression levels.

      (3) The claim, "These observations support the hypothesis that FOXP3 primarily functions as an activator by promoting H3K4me3 deposition in Treg cells." (line 344), seems to be a bit of an overstatement. Foxp3 certainly can promote transcription in ways other than promoting H3K3me3 deposition, and it also can repress gene transcription without affecting H3K27me3 deposition. Therefore, it is not justified to claim that promoting H3K4me3 deposition is Foxp3's primary function.

      Thank you for your insightful feedback. We agree that the statement in line 344 may have overstated the role of FOXP3 in promoting H3K4me3 deposition as its primary function. As you pointed out, FOXP3 is indeed a multifaceted transcription factor that regulates gene expression through various mechanisms. It can promote transcription independent of H3K4me3 deposition, as well as repress transcription without directly influencing H3K27me3 levels.

      To more accurately reflect the broader regulatory functions of FOXP3, we have revised the manuscript. The updated text (Page 19, lines 385-388) now reads:

      "These findings collectively support the conclusion that FOXP3 contributes to transcriptional activation in Treg cells by promoting H3K4me3 deposition at target loci, while also regulating gene expression directly or indirectly through other epigenetic modifications.

      (4) For the in vitro suppression assay in Figure S4C, and the Treg transfer EAE and colitis experiments in Figure 4, the Tregs should be isolated from Cxxc1 fl/fl x Foxp3 cre/wt female heterozygous mice instead of Cxxc1 fl/fl x Foxp3 cre/cre (or cre/Y) mice. Tregs from the homozygous KO mice are already activated by the lymphoproliferative environment and could have vastly different gene expression patterns and homeostatic features compared to resting Tregs. Therefore, it's not a fair comparison between these activated KO Tregs and resting WT Tregs.

      Thank you for raising this insightful point regarding the potential activation status of Treg cells in homozygous knockout mice. To address this concern, we performed additional experiments using Treg cells isolated from Foxp3<sup>Cre/+</sup>Cxxc1<sup>fl/fl</sup> (hereafter referred to as “het-KO”) female mice and their littermate controls, Foxp3<sup>Cre/+</sup>Cxxc1<sup>fl/+</sup> (referred to as “het-WT”) mice.

      The results of these new experiments are now included in the manuscript (Page25, lines 507–509, Figure 6E and Figure S6A-E):

      (1) In the in vitro suppression assay, Treg cells from het-KO mice exhibited reduced suppressive function compared to het-WT Treg cells. This finding underscores the intrinsic defect in Treg cells suppressive capacity attributable to the loss of one Cxxc1 allele.

      (2) In the experimental autoimmune encephalomyelitis (EAE) model, Treg cells isolated from het-KO mice also demonstrated impaired suppressive function.

      (5) The manuscript didn't provide a potential mechanism for how CXXC1 strengthens broad H3K4me3-modified genomic regions. The authors should perform Foxp3 ChIP-seq or Cut-n-Taq with WT and Cxxc1 cKO Tregs to determine whether CXXC1 deletion changes Foxp3's binding pattern in Treg cells.

      Thank you for raising this important point. To address your suggestion, we performed CUT&Tag experiments and found that Cxxc1 deletion does not alter FOXP3 binding patterns in Treg cells. Most FOXP3-bound regions in WT Treg cells were similarly enriched in KO Treg cells, indicating that Cxxc1 deficiency does not impair FOXP3’s DNA-binding ability. These results have been added to the revised manuscript (Page 28, lines 567-575, Figure S8A-B) and are further discussed in the Discussion (Pages 28-29, lines 581-587).

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      FOXP3 has been known to form diverse complexes with different transcription factors and enzymes responsible for epigenetic modifications, but how extracellular signals timely regulate FOXP3 complex dynamics remains to be fully understood. Histone H3K4 tri-methylation (H3K4me3) and CXXC finger protein 1 (CXXC1), which is required to regulate H3K4me3, also remain to be fully investigated in Treg cells. Here, Meng et al. performed a comprehensive analysis of H3K4me3 CUT&Tag assay on Treg cells and a comparison of the dataset with the FOXP3 ChIP-seq dataset revealed that FOXP3 could facilitate the regulation of target genes by promoting H3K4me3 deposition.

      Moreover, CXXC1-FOXP3 interaction is required for this regulation. They found that specific knockdown of Cxxc1 in Treg leads to spontaneous severe multi-organ inflammation in mice and that Cxxc1-deficient Treg exhibits enhanced activation and impaired suppression activity. In addition, they have also found that CXXC1 shares several binding sites with FOXP3 especially on Treg signature gene loci, which are necessary for maintaining homeostasis and identity of Treg cells.

      The findings of the current study are pretty intriguing, and it would be great if the authors could fully address the following comments to support these interesting findings.

      Major points:

      (1) There is insufficient evidence in the first part of the Results to support the conclusion that "FOXP3 functions as an activator by promoting H3K4Me3 deposition in Treg cells". The authors should compare the results for H3K4Me3 in FOXP3-negative conventional T cells to demonstrate that at these promoter loci, FOXP3 promotes H3K4Me3 deposition.

      Thank you for this insightful comment. We have already performed additional experiments comparing H3K4Me3 levels between FOXP3-positive Treg cells and FOXP3-negative conventional T cells (Tconv). Please refer to Pages 18, lines 361-368, and Figure 1C and Figure S1C for the results. Our results show that H3K4Me3 abundance is higher at many Treg-specific gene loci in Treg cells compared to Tconv cells. This supports our conclusion that FOXP3 promotes H3K4Me3 deposition at these loci.

      (2) In Figure 3 F&G, the activation status and IFNγ production should be analyzed in Treg cells and Tconv cells separately rather than in total CD4+ T cells. Moreover, are there changes in autoantibodies and IgG and IgE levels in the serum of cKO mice?

      Thank you for your valuable suggestions. In response to your comment, we reanalyzed the data in Figures 3F and 3G to assess the activation status and IFN-γ production in Tconv cells. The updated analysis revealed that Cxxc1 deletion in Treg cells leads to increased activation and IFN-γ production in Tconv cells. Additionally, we corrected the analysis of IL-17A and IL-4 expression, which were upregulated in Tconv cells. These updated results are now included in the revised manuscript (Page 21, lines 429-431, Figure 3I and Figure S3E-F).

      Additionally, we examined autoantibodies and immunoglobulin levels in the serum of Cxxc1 cKO mice. Our data show a significant increase in serum IgG levels, accompanied by elevated IgG autoantibodies, indicating heightened autoimmune responses. In contrast, serum IgE levels remained largely unchanged. The results are detailed in the revised manuscript (Page 21, lines 421-423, Figure 3E and Figure S3B).

      (3) Why did Cxxc1-deficient Treg cells not show impaired suppression than WT Treg during in vitro suppression assay, despite the reduced expression of Treg cell suppression assay -associated markers at the transcriptional level demonstrated in both scRNA-seq and bulk RNA-seq?

      Thank you for your thoughtful comment. The absence of impaired suppression in Cxxc1-deficient Treg cells from homozygous knockout (KO) mice during the in vitro suppression assay, despite the reduced expression of Treg-associated markers at the transcriptional level (as demonstrated by scRNA-seq), can likely be explained by the activated state of these Treg cells. In homozygous KO mice, Treg cells are already activated due to the lymphoproliferative environment, resulting in gene expression patterns that differ from those of resting Treg cells. This pre-activation may obscure the effect of Cxxc1 deletion on their suppressive function in vitro.

      To address this limitation, we used heterozygous Foxp3<sup>Cre/+</sup>Cxxc1<sup>fl/fl</sup> (het-KO) female mice, along with their littermate controls, Foxp3<sup>Cre/+</sup>Cxxc1<sup>fl/+</sup> (het-WT) mice. In these heterozygous mice, we observed an impairment in Treg cell suppressive function in vitro, which was accompanied by the downregulation of several key Treg-associated genes, as confirmed by RNA-Seq analysis.

      These updated findings, based on the use of het-KO mice, are now incorporated into the revised manuscript (Page 25, lines 507–509, Figure 6E).

      (4) Is there a disease in which Cxxc1 is expressed at low levels or absent in Treg cells? Is the same immunodeficiency phenotype present in patients as in mice?

      This is indeed a very meaningful and intriguing question, and we are equally interested in understanding whether low or absent Cxxc1 expression in Treg cells is associated with any human diseases. However, despite an extensive review of the literature and available data, we found no reports linking Cxxc1 deficiency in Treg cells to immunodeficiency phenotypes in patients comparable to those observed in mice.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      In the report entitled "CXXC-finger protein 1 associates with FOXP3 to stabilize homeostasis and suppressive functions of regulatory T cells", the authors demonstrated that Cxxc1-deletion in Treg cells leads to the development of severe inflammatory disease with impaired suppressive function. Mechanistically, CXXC1 interacts with Foxp3 and regulates the expression of key Treg signature genes by modulating H3K4me3 deposition. Their findings are interesting and significant. However, there are several concerns regarding their analysis and conclusions.

      Major concerns:

      (1) Despite cKO mice showing an increase in Treg cells in the lymph nodes and Cxxc1-deficient Treg cells having normal suppressive function, the majority of cKO mice died within a month. What causes cKO mice to die from severe inflammation?

      Considering the results of Figures 4 and 5, a decrease in the Treg cell population due to their reduced proliferative capacity may be one of the causes. It would be informative to analyze the population of tissue Treg cells.

      Thank you for your insightful observation regarding the mortality of cKO mice despite increased Treg cells in lymph nodes and the normal suppressive function of Cxxc1-deficient Treg cells.

      As suggested, we hypothesized that the reduction of tissue-resident Treg cells could be a key factor. Additional experiments revealed a significant decrease in Treg cell populations in the small intestine lamina propria (LPL), liver, and lung of cKO mice. These findings highlight the critical role of tissue-resident Treg cells in preventing systemic inflammation.

      This reduction aligns with Figures 4 and 5, which demonstrate impaired proliferation and survival of Cxxc1-deficient Treg cells. Together, these defects lead to insufficient Treg populations in peripheral tissues, escalating localized inflammation into systemic immune dysregulation and early mortality.

      These additional results have been incorporated into the revised manuscript (Page21, lines 424-427, Figure 3G and Figure S3C).

      (2) In Figure 5B, scRNA-seq analysis indicated that the Mki67+ Treg subset is comparable between WT and Cxxc1-deficient Treg cells. On the other hand, FACS analysis demonstrated that Cxxc1-deficient Treg shows less Ki-67 expression compared to WT in Figure 5I. The authors should explain this discrepancy.

      Thank you for pointing out the apparent discrepancy between the scRNA-seq and FACS analyses regarding Ki-67 expression in Cxxc1-deficient Treg cells.

      In Figure 5B, the scRNA-seq analysis identified the Mki67+ Treg subset as comparable between WT and Cxxc1-deficient Treg cells. This finding reflects the overall proportion of cells expressing Mki67 transcripts within the Treg population. In contrast, the FACS analysis in Figure 5I specifically measures Ki-67 protein levels, revealing reduced expression in Cxxc1-deficient Treg cells compared to WT.

      To resolve this discrepancy, we performed additional analyses of the scRNA-seq data to directly compare the expression levels of Mki67 mRNA between WT and Cxxc1-deficient Treg cells. The results revealed a consistent reduction in Mki67 transcript levels in Cxxc1-deficient Treg cells, aligning with the reduced Ki-67 protein levels observed by FACS.

      These new analyses have been included in the revised manuscript (Author response image 1) to clarify this point and demonstrate consistency between the scRNA-seq and FACS data.

      Author response image 1.

      Violin plots displaying the expression levels of Mki67 in T<sub>reg</sub> cells from Foxp3<sup>cre</sup> and Foxp3<sup>cre</sup>Cxxc1<sup>fl/fl</sup> mice.

      In addition, the authors concluded on line 441 that CXXC1 plays a crucial role in maintaining Treg cell stability. However, there appears to be no data on Treg stability. Which data represent the Treg stability?

      Thank you for your valuable comment. We agree that our wording in line 441 may have been too conclusive. Our data focus on the impact of Cxxc1 deficiency on Treg cell homeostasis and transcriptional regulation, rather than directly measuring Treg cell stability. Specifically, the downregulation of Treg-specific suppressive genes and upregulation of pro-inflammatory markers suggest a shift in Treg cell function, which points to disrupted homeostasis rather than stability.

      We have revised the manuscript to clarify that CXXC1 plays a crucial role in maintaining Treg cell function and homeostasis, rather than stability (Page 24, lines 489-491).

      (3) The authors found that Cxxc1-deficient Treg cells exhibit weaker H3K4me3 signals compared to WT in Figure 7. This result suggests that Cxxc1 regulates H3K4me3 modification via H3K4 methyltransferases in Treg cells. The authors should clarify which H3K4 methyltransferases contribute to the modulation of H3K4me3 deposition by Cxxc1 in Treg cells.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s insightful comment regarding the role of H3K4 methyltransferases in regulating H3K4me3 deposition by CXXC1 in Treg cells.

      CXXC1 has been reported to function as a non-catalytic component of the Set1/COMPASS complex, which includes the H3K4 methyltransferases SETD1A and SETD1B—key enzymes responsible for H3K4 trimethylation(1-4). Based on these findings, we propose that CXXC1 modulates H3K4me3 levels in Treg cells by interacting with and stabilizing the activity of the Set1/COMPASS complex.

      These revisions are further discussed in the Discussion (Page 30-31, lines 624-632).

      Furthermore, it would be important to investigate whether Cxxc1-deletion alters Foxp3 binding to target genes.

      Thank you for raising this important point. To address your suggestion, we performed CUT&Tag experiments and found that Cxxc1 deletion does not alter FOXP3 binding patterns in Treg cells. Most FOXP3-bound regions in WT Treg cells were similarly enriched in KO Treg cells, indicating that Cxxc1 deficiency does not impair FOXP3’s DNA-binding ability. These results have been added to the revised manuscript (Page 28, lines 567-575, Figure S8A-B) and are further discussed in the Discussion (Pages 28-29, lines 581-587).

      (4) In Figure 7, the authors concluded that CXXC1 promotes Treg cell homeostasis and function by preserving the H3K4me3 modification since Cxxc1-deficient Treg cells show lower H3K4me3 densities at the key Treg signature genes. Are these Cxxc1-deficient Treg cells derived from mosaic mice? If Cxxc1-deficient Treg cells are derived from cKO mice, the gene expression and H3K4me3 modification status are inconsistent because scRNA-seq analysis indicated that expression of these Treg signature genes was increased in Cxxc1-deficient Treg cells compared to WT (Figure 5F and G).

      Thank you for your insightful comment. To clarify, the Cxxc1-deficient Treg cells analyzed for H3K4me3 modifications in Figure 7 were derived from Cxxc1 conditional knockout (cKO) mice, not mosaic mice.

      Regarding the apparent inconsistency between reduced H3K4me3 levels and the increased expression of Treg signature genes observed in scRNA-seq analysis (Figure 5F and G), we believe this discrepancy can be attributed to distinct mechanisms regulating gene expression. H3K4me3 is an epigenetic mark that facilitates chromatin accessibility and transcriptional regulation, reflecting upstream chromatin dynamics. However, gene expression levels are influenced by a combination of factors, including transcriptional activators, downstream compensatory mechanisms, and the inflammatory environment in cKO mice.

      The upregulation of Treg signature genes in scRNA-seq data likely reflects an activated or pro-inflammatory state of Cxxc1-deficient Treg cells in response to systemic inflammation, as previously described in the manuscript. This contrasts with the intrinsic reduction in H3K4me3 levels at these loci, indicating a loss of epigenetic regulation by CXXC1.

      To further support this interpretation, RNA-seq analysis of Treg cells from Foxp3<sup>Cre/+</sup> Cxxc1<sup>fl/fl</sup> (“het-KO”) and their littermate Foxp3<sup>Cre/+</sup> Cxxc1<sup>fl/+</sup> (“het-WT”) female mice (Figure S6C) revealed a significant reduction in key Treg signature genes such as Icos, Ctla4, Tnfrsf18, and Nt5e in het-KO Treg cells. These results align with the diminished H3K4me3 modifications observed in cKO Treg cells, further underscoring the role of CXXC1 as an epigenetic regulator.

      In summary, while the gene expression changes observed in scRNA-seq may reflect adaptive responses to inflammation, the reduced H3K4me3 modifications directly highlight the critical role of CXXC1 in maintaining the epigenetic landscape essential for Treg cell homeostasis and function.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      In Figure 7E, the y-axis scale for H3K4me3 peaks at the Ctla4 locus should be consistent between WT and cKO samples.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out the inconsistency in the y-axis scale for the H3K4me3 peaks at the Ctla4 locus in Figure 7E. We have carefully revised the figure to ensure that the y-axis scale is now consistent between the WT and cKO samples.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s attention to this detail, as it enhances the rigor of the data presentation. Please find the updated Figure 7E in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      In lines 455 and 466, the name of Treg signature markers validated by flow cytometry should be written as protein name and capitalized.

      Thank you for pointing this out. We have carefully reviewed lines 455 and 466 and have revised the text to ensure that the Treg signature markers validated by flow cytometry are referred to using their protein names, with proper capitalization.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) On line 431, "Cxxc1-deficient cells" should be Cxxc1-deficient Treg cells".

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting this oversight. On line 431, we have revised "Cxxc1-deficient cells" to "Cxxc1-deficient Treg cells" to provide a more accurate and specific description. We appreciate the reviewer's attention to detail, as this correction improves the precision of our manuscript.

      (2) In Figure 4H, negative values should be removed from the y-axis.

      Thank you for your observation. We have revised Figure 4H to remove the negative values from the y-axis, as requested. This adjustment ensures a more accurate and meaningful representation of the data.

      (3) It is better to provide the lists of overlapping genes in Figure 7C.

      Thank you for your suggestion. We agree that providing the lists of overlapping genes in Figure 7C would enhance the clarity and reproducibility of the results. We have now included the gene lists as supplementary information (Supplementary Table 3) accompanying Figure 7C.

      (1) Lee, J. H. & Skalnik, D. G. CpG-binding protein (CXXC finger protein 1) is a component of the mammalian set1 histone H3-Lys4 methyltransferase complex, the analogue of the yeast Set1/COMPASS complex. Journal of Biological Chemistry 280, 41725-41731, doi:10.1074/jbc.M508312200 (2005).

      (2) Thomson, J. P., Skene, P. J., Selfridge, J., Clouaire, T., Guy, J., Webb, S., Kerr, A. R. W., Deaton, A., Andrews, R., James, K. D., Turner, D. J., Illingworth, R. & Bird, A. CpG islands influence chromatin structure via the CpG-binding protein Cfp1. Nature 464, 1082-U1162, doi:10.1038/nature08924 (2010).

      (3) Shilatifard, A. in Annual Review of Biochemistry, Vol 81 Vol. 81 Annual Review of Biochemistry (ed R. D. Kornberg)  65-95 (2012).

      (4) Brown, D. A., Di Cerbo, V., Feldmann, A., Ahn, J., Ito, S., Blackledge, N. P., Nakayama, M., McClellan, M., Dimitrova, E., Turberfield, A. H., Long, H. K., King, H. W., Kriaucionis, S., Schermelleh, L., Kutateladze, T. G., Koseki, H. & Klose, R. J. The SET1 Complex Selects Actively Transcribed Target Genes via Multivalent Interaction with CpG Island Chromatin. Cell Reports 20, 2313-2327, doi:10.1016/j.celrep.2017.08.030 (2017).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Zhang et al. describe a delicate relationship between Tet2 and FBP1 in the regulation of hepatic gluconeogenesis.

      Strengths:

      The studies are very mechanistic, indicating that this interaction occurs via demethylation of HNF4a. Phosphorylation of HNF4a at ser 313 induced by metformin also controls the interaction between Tet2 and FBP1.

      We are grateful for the reviewer's praise on the manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      The results are briefly described, and oftentimes, the necessary information is not provided to interpret the data. Similarly, the methods section is not well developed to inform the reader about how these experiments were performed. While the findings are interesting, the results section needs to be better developed to increase confidence in the interpretation of the results.

      Thanks very much for pointing out the shortcomings of the manuscript. We apologize that we did not provide detailed description for some experimental methods and results. Following reviewer’s suggestion, we added the details in method section, including the generation of whole-body Tet2 KO mice and liver-specific Tet2 knockdown mice (AAV8-shTet2), the missing information of reagent, antibody, primer sequences and mutant generation, and the methods of chromatin immunoprecipitation (ChIP) and immunofluorescence. The interpretation of the results was also further developed according to reviewer’s comments.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study reveals a novel role of TET2 in regulating gluconeogenesis. It shows that fasting and a high-fat diet increase TET2 expression in mice, and TET2 knockout reduces glucose production. The findings highlight that TET2 positively regulates FBP1, a key enzyme in gluconeogenesis, by interacting with HNF4α to demethylate the FBP1 promoter in response to glucagon. Additionally, metformin reduces FBP1 expression by preventing TET2-HNF4α interaction. This identifies an HNF4α-TET2-FBP1 axis as a potential target for T2D treatment.

      Strengths:

      The authors use several methods in vivo (PTT, GTT, and ITT in fasted and HFD mice; and KO mice) and in vitro (in HepG2 and primary hepatocytes) to support the existence of the HNF4alpha-TET-2-FBP-1 axis in the control of gluconeogenesis. These findings uncovered a previously unknown function of TET2 in gluconeogenesis.

      We are grateful for the reviewer's praise on the manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      Although the authors provide evidence of an HNF4α-TET2-FBP1 axis in the control of gluconeogenesis, which contributes to the therapeutic effect of metformin on T2D, its role in the pathogenesis of T2D is less clear. The mechanisms by which TET2 is up-regulated by glucagon should be more explored.

      Thanks very much for pointing out the shortcomings of the manuscript. We agree with the reviewer that the manuscript is focused on the function of HNF4α-TET2-FBP1 axis in the control of gluconeogenesis, but not on its role in the pathogenesis of T2D. Following reviewer’s suggestion, we changed the title of the manuscript to “HNF4α-TET2-FBP1 axis contributes to gluconeogenesis and type 2 diabetes”. For the mechanisms by which TET2 is up-regulated by glucagon, we examined TET2 mRNA levels at different time points after a single dose of glucagon treatment in HepG2 cells. Interestingly, the results showed that TET2 mRNA levels significantly increased by 6 folds at 30 min and the sustained effect of glucagon on Tet2 mRNA levels persisted for more than 48 hours (refer to Fig. 3E).

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):<br /> The authors indicate that they have overexpressed TET2 in HepG2 cells and primary mouse hepatocytes. The degree of overexpression should be shown. Is this similar to an increase in TET2 with fasting or HFD treatment?

      Thanks for reviewer’s helpful comment. Following reviewer’s suggestion, we examined the protein levels of overexpressed TET2 in HepG2 cells and primary mouse hepatocytes. The results revealed that the degree of TET2 overexpression (refer to Fig. 3J) is similar to the increase of TET2 under fasting or HFD treatment (Fig. 1C, D).

      In Figures 2E-2G, the authors report results in Tet2-KO mice. Information on how these mice were generated is lacking. There is limited information about how Tet2-KO cells were generated, but again, I could not find anything about these mice in the methods section or figure legend. Is this whole-body or liver-specific Tet2-KO? How old were the mice at the time of PTT, GTT, or ITT?

      Were these mice on chow or HFD? Are there any differences in body weight between WT and Tet2-KO mice?

      Thanks for reviewer’s helpful comment. Following reviewer’s suggestion, we provided the detailed information about the Tet2-KO mice, including the mouse generation in methods section. Moreover, the details of Tet2-KO mice used in each figure were clearly described in the figure legend. In this study, two mouse models were employed: whole-body Tet2-KO mice and liver-specific TET2 knockdown mice (AAV8-shTet2). The mice used for PTT, GTT and ITT were 8 weeks old and on HFD. To address reviewer’s concern, we compared the body weight of WT and Tet2-KO mice and results revealed that no significant differences in the body weight between WT and Tet2-KO mice at 8 and 10 weeks old when on a normal chow diet, as depicted in Figure 2I.

      Figures 3A-C shows that 48 hours after glucagon treatment, Tet2 and FBP1 mRNA increased. It's surprising that a single dose of glucagon would have effects that last that long. The peak rise in glucose following glucagon treatment occurs in 30 minutes. How do authors explain such a long effect of glucagon on Tet2 mRNA and protein?

      Thanks for reviewer’s constructive comment. To address reviewer’s concern, we examined the mRNA levels of TET2 and FBP1 at different time points following a single dose of glucagon treatment in HepG2 cells. Interestingly, the results showed that TET2 mRNA levels significantly increased by 6 folds at 30 min and the sustained effect of glucagon on Tet2 mRNA levels persisted for more than 48 hours (refer to Fig. 3E). The detailed mechanism underlying long effect of glucagon on Tet2 mRNA and protein needs further exploration.

      It's interesting that in Figure 3F, Fbp1 and Tet2 mRNA expression correlated positively in both ad libitum and fasting conditions. I would expect that during fed conditions, gluconeogenesis would not be activated and thus would expect no correlation.

      Thanks for reviewer’s constructive comment. According to the results in new Fig. 3H, the mRNA levels of Fbp1 and Tet2 indeed positively correlated in both ad libitum and fasting conditions, while the r value is higher and p value is lower in fasting condition compared to ad libitum. Notably, both the expression levels of Fbp1 and Tet2 increased under fasting treatment, which is consistent with Fig. 1C and Fig. 4K.

      The authors state that "Our results demonstrated that HNF4α recruits TET2 to the FBP1 promoter and activates FBP1 expression through demethylation" What data points out that this is mediated through demethylation?

      Thanks for reviewer’s constructive comment. Following reviewer’s suggestion, we conducted new ChIP experiments. These data demonstrated that HNF4α recruits TET2 to the FBP1 promoter and activates FBP1 expression through demethylation, as showed in Fig. 4F-H.

      For Figures 5B, 4D, and 3L-N y-axes are labeled as fold enrichment. The authors should clearly indicate what was being measured on y-axes.

      Thanks for reviewer’s helpful comment. Following reviewer’s suggestion, we clearly labeled all the y-axes in each figure.

      The authors indicate that metformin increases phosphorylation of Hnf4a at ser 313 Figure 5C. How do we know that ser 313 is involved? Only one antibody is listed for Hnf4a (SAB, 32591).

      Thanks very much for pointing out. We determined the phosphorylation levels of HNF4α at S313 using Anti-HNF4α (phospho S313) (ab78356), we apologize for not labeling it clearly. Now, we made it clear in Fig. 5C and the detailed information of the antibody was added to the method section of “Western Blot and Immunoprecipitation”.

      How did the authors make phosphomimetic mutation (S313D) and phosphoresistant mutation (S313A) of HNF4α? This is not described.

      Thanks very much for pointing out. Following reviewer’s suggestion, the detailed method for making phosphomimetic mutation (S313D) and phosphoresistant mutation (S313A) of HNF4α was added to the method section of “Gene Knockout Cells and Mutagenesis”.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Major points:

      (1) Other key gluconeogenesis genes (e.g. PEPCK and G6Pase) should have been investigated to demonstrate whether or not the regulation of TET-2 is specific on FBP-1.

      Thanks for reviewer’s helpful comment. Following reviewer’s suggestion, we designed the qPCR to assay other key gluconeogenesis genes, including PEPCK and G6Pase, and the results showed that glucagon treatment had no effect on PEPCK and G6Pase expression (Fig. 3D), suggesting the regulation of TET2 is specific on FBP1.

      (2) The methods are not well defined and more details should be given, for example, to explain how the Tet2 KO mice were generated. Since these animals are not KO liver-specific and TET2 is expressed in a variety of tissues and organs and is predominantly found in hematopoietic cells, including bone marrow and blood cells, the phenotype of these mice should be better characterized.

      Thanks for reviewer’s helpful comment. The Tet2 knockout (Tet2 KO) mice were originally purchased from the Jackson Laboratory (strain No. 023359) and we added the detailed information to method section of “Animal”. According to the previously reported phenotype of Tet2 KO mice, it mainly includes bone marrow, spleen, islet and heart. Specifically, Tet2 KO mice led to an increase of total cell numbers in the bone marrow and spleen (PMID: 21873190), as well as an elevated white blood cell (WBC) count (PMID: 37541212). Additionally, Tet2 KO mice exhibited splenomegaly (PMID: 37541212, PMID: 21723200, PMID: 38773071, PMID: 21723200). And the morphology of the islets (PMID: 34417463), anatomical chamber volumes or ventricular functions (PMID: 38357791) were indistinguishable between the Tet2 KO and wild type (WT) mice.

      (3) An experiment showing the co-localization of TET2 and HNF4α in the mouse liver in fasted mice and/or in HFD-mice would strengthen the data shown in Figure 3.

      Thanks for reviewer’s helpful comment. Following reviewer’s suggestion, the experiments showing the co-localization of TET2 and HNF4α in the mouse liver in fasted mice and FD mice were conducted, as shown in new Fig. 4B and C.

      Minor points:

      (1) Given that the manuscript does not focus on the role of TET2 in the pathogenesis of T2D, its title should be changed.

      hanks for reviewer’s helpful comment. Following reviewer’s suggestion, we changed the title of the manuscript to “HNF4α-TET2-FBP1 axis contributes to gluconeogenesis and type 2 diabetes”.

      (2) Please indicate the molecular weight of bands in all figures.

      Thanks for reviewer’s helpful comment. Following reviewer’s suggestion, the molecular weight of bands was indicated in all figures.

      (3) Why do the control values of the y-axis in Figure 1 A and B are so different? Please maintain the same scale in both figures.

      Thanks for reviewer’s helpful comment. Following reviewer’s suggestion, we recalculated and normalized the control value in Fig. 1A to maintain the same scale in both figures.

      (4) In Figure 2F, do the plasma insulin levels have altered in response to GTT in Tet2-KO mice? If so, please show the data and discuss.

      Thanks for reviewer’s helpful comment. Following reviewer’s suggestion, we examined the plasma insulin levels in the process of GTT assay, and the result revealed that Tet2-KO mice showed lower insulin levels after glucose administration, which reflects higher insulin sensitivity, as shown in new Fig. 2H.

      (5) The increase of TET2 hepatic protein levels in response to fasting occur in other tissues and hematopoietic cells?

      Thanks for reviewer’s helpful comment. Following reviewer’s suggestion, we examined Tet2 protein levels under fasting condition in other tissues and hematopoietic cells, and found that fasting also increased Tet2 protein levels in kidney, brain, and hematopoietic cells, but not in heart.

      Author response image 1.

      (6) Please indicate the glucagon concentration and metformin dose in all figures in which they are mentioned.

      Thanks for reviewer’s helpful comment. Following reviewer’s suggestion, the glucagon concentration (20 nM) and metformin concentration (10 mM for HepG2 cell treatment and 300 mg/kg per day for mice treatment) were added in the figure legends, respectively.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      In the current manuscript, the authors use theoretical and analytical tools to examine the possibility of neural projections to engage ensembles of synaptic clusters in active dendrites. The analysis is divided into multiple models that differ in the connectivity parameters, speed of interactions, and identity of the signal (electric vs. second messenger). They first show that random connectivity almost ensures the representation of presynaptic ensembles. As expected, this convergence is much more likely for small group sizes and slow processes, such as calcium dynamics. Conversely, fast signals (spikes and postsynaptic potentials) and large groups are much less likely to recruit spatially clustered inputs. Dendritic nonlinearity in the postsynaptic cells was found to play a highly important role in distinguishing these clustered activation patterns, both when activated simultaneously and in sequence. The authors tackled the difficult issue of noise, showing a beneficiary effect when noise 'happens' to fill in gaps in a sequential pattern but degraded performance at higher background activity levels. Last, the authors simulated selectivity to chemical and electrical signals. While they find that longer sequences are less perturbed by noise, in more realistic activation conditions, the signals are not well resolved in the soma.

      While I think the premise of the manuscript is worth exploring, I have a number of reservations regarding the results.

      (1) In the analysis, the authors made a simplifying assumption that the chemical and electrical processes are independent. However, this is not the case; excitatory inputs to spines often trigger depolarization combined with pronounced calcium influx; this mixed signaling could have dramatic implications on the analysis, particularly if the dendrites are nonlinear (see below)

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out that we were not entirely clear about the strong basis upon which we had built our analyses of nonlinearity. In the previous version we had relied on published work, notably (Bhalla 2017), which does include these nonlinearities. However, we agree it is preferable to unambiguously demonstrate all the reported selectivity properties in a single model with all the nonlinearities discussed. We have now done so. This is now reported in the paper:

      “A single model exhibits multiple forms of nonlinear dendritic selectivity

      We implemented all three forms of selectivity described above, in a single model which included six voltage and calcium-gated ion channels, NMDA, AMPA and GABA receptors, and chemical signaling processes in spines and dendrites. The goal of this was three fold: To show how these nonlinear operations emerge in a mechanistically detailed model, to show that they can coexist, and to show that they are separated in time-scales. We implemented a Y-branched neuron model with additional electrical compartments for the dendritic spines (Methods). This model was closely based on a published detailed chemical-electrical model (Bhalla 2017). We stimulated this model with synaptic input corresponding to the three kinds of spatiotemporal patterns described in figures Figure 8 - Supplement 1 (sequential synaptic activity triggering electrical sequence selectivity), Figure 8 - Supplement 2 (spatially grouped synaptic stimuli leading to local Ca4_CaM activation), and Figure 8 - Supplement 3 (sequential bursts of synaptic activity triggering chemical sequence selectivity). We found that each of these mechanisms show nonlinear selectivity with respect to both synaptic spacing and synaptic weights. Further, these forms of selectivity coexist in the composite model (Figure 8 Supplements 1, 2, 3), separated by the time-scales of the stimulus patterns (~ 100 ms, ~ 1s and ~10s respectively). Thus mixed signaling in active nonlinear dendrites yields selectivity of the same form as we explored in simpler individual models. A more complete analysis of the effect of morphology, branching and channel distributions deserves a separate in-depth analysis, and is outside the scope of the current study.”

      (2) Sequence detection in active dendrites is often simplified to investigating activation in a part of or the entirety of individual branches. However, the authors did not do that for most of their analysis. Instead, they treat the entire dendritic tree as one long branch and count how many inputs form clusters. I fail to see why simplification is required and suspect it can lead to wrong results. For example, two inputs that are mapped to different dendrites in the 'original' morphology but then happen to fall next to each other when the branches are staggered to form the long dendrites would be counted as neighbors.

      We have added the below section within the main text in the section titled “Grouped Convergence of Inputs” to address the effect of branching.

      “End-effects limit convergence zones for highly branched neurons

      Neurons exhibit considerable diversity with respect to their morphologies. How synapses extending across dendritic branch points interact in the context of a synaptic cluster/group, is a topic that needs detailed examination via experimental and modeling approaches. However for the sake of analysis, we present calculations under the assumption that selectivity for grouped inputs might be degraded across branch points.

      Zones beginning close to a branch point might get interrupted. Consider a neuron with B branches. The length of the typical branch would be L/B. As a conservative estimate if we exclude a region of length Z for every branch, the expected number of zones that begin too close to a branch point is

                                                                          [Equation 3]

      For typical pyramidal neurons B~50, so Eend ~ 0.05 for values of Z of ~10 µm. Thus pyramidal neurons will not be much affected by branching effects, Profusely branching neurons like Purkinje cells have B~900 for a total L of ~7800 µm, (McConnell and Berry, 1978), hence Eend ~1 for values of Z of ~10 µm. Thus almost all groups in Purkinje neurons would run into a branch point or terminal. For the case of electrical groups, this estimate would be scaled by a factor of 5 if we consider a zone length of 50 µm. However, it is important to note that these are very conservative estimates, as for clusters of 4-5 inputs, the number of synapses available within a zone are far greater (~100 synapses within 50 µm).”

      (3) The simulations were poorly executed. Figures 5 and 6 show examples but no summary statistics.

      We have included the summary statistics in Figure 5F and Figure 6E. The statistics for both these panels were generated by simulating multiple spatiotemporal combinations of ectopic input in the presence of different stimulus patterns for each sequence length.

      The authors emphasize the importance of nonlinear dendritic interactions, but they do not include them in their analysis of the ectopic signals! I find it to be wholly expected that the effects of dendritic ensembles are not pronounced when the dendrites are linear.

      We would like to clarify that both Figures 5 and 6 already included nonlinearities. In Figure 5, the chemical mechanism involving the bistable switch motif is strongly selective for ordered inputs in a nonlinear manner. A separate panel highlighting this (Panel C) has now been included in Figure 5. This result had been previously shown in Figure 3I of (Bhalla 2017). We have reproduced it in Figure 5C.

      The published electrical model used in Figure 6 also has a nonlinearity which predominantly stems from the interaction of the impedance gradient along the dendrite with the voltage dependence of NMDARs. Check Figure 4C,D of (Branco, Clark, and Häusser 2010).

      To provide a comprehensive analysis of dendritic integration, the authors could simulate more realistic synaptic conductances and voltage-gated channels. They would find much more complicated interactions between inputs on a single site, a sliding temporal and spatial window of nonlinear integration that depends on dendritic morphology, active and passive parameters, and synaptic properties. At different activation levels, the rules of synaptic integration shift to cooperativity between different dendrites and cellular compartments, further complicated by nonlinear interactions between somatic spikes and dendritic events.

      We would like to clarify two points. First, the key goal of our study was to understand the role played by random connectivity in giving rise to clustered computation. In this revision we provide simulations to show the mechanistic basis for the nonlinearities, and then abstracted these out in order to scale the analysis to networks. These nonlinearities were taken as a given, though we elaborated previous work slightly in order to address the question of ectopic inputs. Second, in our original submission we relied on published work for the estimates of dendritic nonlinearities. Previous work from (Poirazi, Brannon, and Mel 2003; Branco, Clark, and Häusser 2010; Bhalla 2017) have already carried out highly detailed realistic simulations, and in some cases including chemical and electrical nonlinearities as the reviewer mentions (Bhalla 2017). Hence we did not feel that this needed to be redone.

      In this resubmission we have addressed the above and two additional concerns, namely whether the different forms of selectivity can coexist in a single model including all these nonlinearities, and whether there is separation of time-scales. The answer is yes to both. The outcome of this is presented in Figure 8 and the associated supplementary figures, and all simulation details are provided on the github repository associated with this paper. A more complete analysis of interaction of multiple nonlinearities in a detailed model is material for further study.

      While it is tempting to extend back-of-the-napkin calculations of how many inputs can recruit nonlinear integration in active dendrites, the biological implementation is very different from this hypothetical. It is important to consider these questions, but I am not convinced that this manuscript adequately addressed the questions it set out to probe, nor does it provide information that was unknown beforehand.

      We developed our analysis systematically, and perhaps the reviewer refers to the first few calculations as back-of-the-napkin. However, the derivation rapidly becomes more complex when we factor in combinatorics and the effect of noise. This derivation is in the supplementary material. Furthermore, the exact form of the combinatorial and noise equations was non-trivial to derive and we worked closely with the connectivity simulations (Figures 2 and 4) to obtain equations which scale across a large parameter space by sampling connectivity for over 100000 neurons and activity over 100 trials for each of these neurons for each network configuration we have tested.

      the biological implementation is very different from this hypothetical.

      We do not quite understand in what respect the reviewer feels that this calculation is very different from the biological implementation. The calculation is about projection patterns. In the discussion we consider at length how our findings of selectivity from random projections may be an effective starting point for more elaborate biological connection rules. We have added the following sentence:

      “We present a first-order analysis of the simplest kind of connectivity rule (random), upon which more elaborate rules such as spatial gradients and activity-dependent wiring may be developed.”

      In case the reviewer was referring to the biological implementation of nonlinear integration, we treat the nonlinear integration in the dendrites as a separate set of simulations, most of which are closely based on published work (Bhalla 2017). We use these in the later sections of the paper to estimate selectivity terms, which inform our final analysis.

      In the revision we have worked to clarify this progression of the analysis. As indicated above, we have also made a composite model of all of the nonlinear dendritic mechanisms, chemical and electrical, which underlie our analysis.

      nor does it provide information that was unknown beforehand.

      We conducted a broad literature survey and to the best of our knowledge these calculations and findings have not been obtained previously. If the reviewer has some specific examples in mind we would be pleased to refer to it.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      If synaptic input is functionally clustered on dendrites, nonlinear integration could increase the computational power of neural networks. But this requires the right synapses to be located in the right places. This paper aims to address the question of whether such synaptic arrangements could arise by chance (i.e. without special rules for axon guidance or structural plasticity), and could therefore be exploited even in randomly connected networks. This is important, particularly for the dendrites and biological computation communities, where there is a pressing need to integrate decades of work at the single-neuron level with contemporary ideas about network function.

      Using an abstract model where ensembles of neurons project randomly to a postsynaptic population, back-of-envelope calculations are presented that predict the probability of finding clustered synapses and spatiotemporal sequences. Using data-constrained parameters, the authors conclude that clustering and sequences are indeed likely to occur by chance (for large enough ensembles), but require strong dendritic nonlinearities and low background noise to be useful.

      Strengths:

      (1) The back-of-envelope reasoning presented can provide fast and valuable intuition. The authors have also made the effort to connect the model parameters with measured values. Even an approximate understanding of cluster probability can direct theory and experiments towards promising directions, or away from lost causes.

      (2) I found the general approach to be refreshingly transparent and objective. Assumptions are stated clearly about the model and statistics of different circuits. Along with some positive results, many of the computed cluster probabilities are vanishingly small, and noise is found to be quite detrimental in several cases. This is important to know, and I was happy to see the authors take a balanced look at conditions that help/hinder clustering, rather than to just focus on a particular regime that works.

      (3) This paper is also a timely reminder that synaptic clusters and sequences can exist on multiple spatial and temporal scales. The authors present results pertaining to the standard `electrical' regime (~50-100 µm, <50 ms), as well as two modes of chemical signaling (~10 µm, 100-1000 ms). The senior author is indeed an authority on the latter, and the simulations in Figure 5, extending those from Bhalla (2017), are unique in this area. In my view, the role of chemical signaling in neural computation is understudied theoretically, but research will be increasingly important as experimental technologies continue to develop.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The paper is mostly let down by the presentation. In the current form, some patience is needed to grasp the main questions and results, and it is hard to keep track of the many abbreviations and definitions. A paper like this can be impactful, but the writing needs to be crisp, and the logic of the derivation accessible to non-experts. See, for instance, Stepanyants, Hof & Chklovskii (2002) for a relevant example.

      It would be good to see a restructure that communicates the main points clearly and concisely, perhaps leaving other observations to an optional appendix. For the interested but time-pressed reader, I recommend starting with the last paragraph of the introduction, working through the main derivation on page 7, and writing out the full expression with key parameters exposed. Next, look at Table 1 and Figure 2J to see where different circuits and mechanisms fit in this scheme. Beyond this, the sequence derivation on page 15 and biophysical simulations in Figures 5 and 6 are also highlights.

      We appreciate the reviewers' suggestions. We have tightened the flow of the introduction. We understand that the abbreviations and definitions are challenging and have therefore provided intuitions and summaries of the equations discussed in the main text.

      Clusters calculations

      “Our approach is to ask how likely it is that a given set of inputs lands on a short segment of dendrite, and then scale it up to all segments on the entire dendritic length of the cell.

      Thus, the probability of occurrence of groups that receive connections from each of the M ensembles (PcFMG) is a function of the connection probability (p) between the two layers, the number of neurons in an ensemble (N), the relative zone-length with respect to the total dendritic arbor (Z/L) and the number of ensembles (M).”

      Sequence calculations

      “Here we estimate the likelihood of the first ensemble input arriving anywhere on the dendrite, and ask how likely it is that succeeding inputs of the sequence would arrive within a set spacing.

      Thus, the probability of occurrence of sequences that receive sequential connections (PcPOSS) from each of the M ensembles is a function of the connection probability (p) between the two layers, the number of neurons in an ensemble (N), the relative window size with respect to the total dendritic arbor (Δ/L) and the number of ensembles (M).”

      (2) I wonder if the authors are being overly conservative at times. The result highlighted in the abstract is that 10/100000 postsynaptic neurons are expected to exhibit synaptic clustering. This seems like a very small number, especially if circuits are to rely on such a mechanism. However, this figure assumes the convergence of 3-5 distinct ensembles. Convergence of inputs from just 2 ense mbles would be much more prevalent, but still advantageous computationally. There has been excitement in the field about experiments showing the clustering of synapses encoding even a single feature.

      We agree that short clusters of two inputs would be far more likely. We focused our analysis on clusters with three of more ensembles because of the following reasons:

      (1) The signal to noise in these clusters was very poor as the likelihood of noise clusters is high.

      (2) It is difficult to trigger nonlinearities with very few synaptic inputs.

      (3) At the ensemble sizes we considered (100 for clusters, 1000 for sequences), clusters arising from just two ensembles would result in high probability of occurrence on all neurons in a network (~50% in cortex, see p_CMFG in figures below.). These dense neural representations make it difficult for downstream networks to decode (Foldiak 2003).

      However, in the presence of ensembles containing fewer neurons or when the connection probability between the layers is low, short clusters can result in sparse representations (Figure 2 - Supplement 2). Arguments 1 and 2 hold for short sequences as well.

      (3) The analysis supporting the claim that strong nonlinearities are needed for cluster/sequence detection is unconvincing. In the analysis, different synapse distributions on a single long dendrite are convolved with a sigmoid function and then the sum is taken to reflect the somatic response. In reality, dendritic nonlinearities influence the soma in a complex and dynamic manner. It may be that the abstract approach the authors use captures some of this, but it needs to be validated with simulations to be trusted (in line with previous work, e.g. Poirazi, Brannon & Mel, (2003)).

      We agree that multiple factors might affect the influence of nonlinearities on the soma. The key goal of our study was to understand the role played by random connectivity in giving rise to clustered computation. Since simulating a wide range of connectivity and activity patterns in a detailed biophysical model was computationally expensive, we analyzed the exemplar detailed models for nonlinearity separately (Figures 5, 6, and new figure 8), and then used our abstract models as a proxy for understanding population dynamics. A complete analysis of the role played by morphology, channel kinetics and the effect of branching requires an in-depth study of its own, and some of these questions have already been tackled by (Poirazi, Brannon, and Mel 2003; Branco, Clark, and Häusser 2010; Bhalla 2017). However, in the revision, we have implemented a single model which incorporates the range of ion-channel, synaptic and biochemical signaling nonlinearities which we discuss in the paper (Figure 8, and Figure 8 Supplement 1, 2,3). We use this to demonstrate all three forms of sequence and grouped computation we use in the study, where the only difference is in the stimulus pattern and the separation of time-scales inherent in the stimuli.

      (4) It is unclear whether some of the conclusions would hold in the presence of learning. In the signal-to-noise analysis, all synaptic strengths are assumed equal. But if synapses involved in salient clusters or sequences were potentiated, presumably detection would become easier? Similarly, if presynaptic tuning and/or timing were reorganized through learning, the conditions for synaptic arrangements to be useful could be relaxed. Answering these questions is beyond the scope of the study, but there is a caveat there nonetheless.

      We agree with the reviewer. If synapses receiving connectivity from ensembles had stronger weights, this would make detection easier. Dendritic spikes arising from clustered inputs have been implicated in local cooperative plasticity (Golding, Staff, and Spruston 2002; Losonczy, Makara, and Magee 2008). Further, plasticity related proteins synthesized at a synapse undergoing L-LTP can diffuse to neighboring weakly co-active synapses, and thereby mediate cooperative plasticity (Harvey et al. 2008; Govindarajan, Kelleher, and Tonegawa 2006; Govindarajan et al. 2011). Thus if clusters of synapses were likely to be co-active, they could further engage these local plasticity mechanisms which could potentiate them while not potentiating synapses that are activated by background activity. This would depend on the activity correlation between synapses receiving ensemble inputs within a cluster vs those activated by background activity. We have mentioned some of these ideas in a published opinion paper (Pulikkottil, Somashekar, and Bhalla 2021). In the current study, we wanted to understand whether even in the absence of specialized connection rules, interesting computations could still emerge. Thus, we focused on asking whether clustered or sequential convergence could arise even in a purely randomly connected network, with the most basic set of assumptions. We agree that an analysis of how selectivity evolves with learning would be an interesting topic for further work.

      References

      Bhalla, Upinder S. 2017. “Synaptic Input Sequence Discrimination on Behavioral Timescales Mediated by Reaction-Diffusion Chemistry in Dendrites.” Edited by Frances K Skinner. eLife 6 (April):e25827. https://doi.org/10.7554/eLife.25827.

      Branco, Tiago, Beverley A. Clark, and Michael Häusser. 2010. “Dendritic Discrimination of Temporal Input Sequences in Cortical Neurons.” Science (New York, N.Y.) 329 (5999): 1671–75. https://doi.org/10.1126/science.1189664.

      Foldiak, Peter. 2003. “Sparse Coding in the Primate Cortex.” The Handbook of Brain Theory and Neural Networks. https://research-repository.st-andrews.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/10023/2994/FoldiakSparse HBTNN2e02.pdf?sequence=1.

      Golding, Nace L., Nathan P. Staff, and Nelson Spruston. 2002. “Dendritic Spikes as a Mechanism for Cooperative Long-Term Potentiation.” Nature 418 (6895): 326–31. https://doi.org/10.1038/nature00854.

      Govindarajan, Arvind, Inbal Israely, Shu-Ying Huang, and Susumu Tonegawa. 2011. “The Dendritic Branch Is the Preferred Integrative Unit for Protein Synthesis-Dependent LTP.” Neuron 69 (1): 132–46. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuron.2010.12.008.

      Govindarajan, Arvind, Raymond J. Kelleher, and Susumu Tonegawa. 2006. “A Clustered Plasticity Model of Long-Term Memory Engrams.” Nature Reviews Neuroscience 7 (7): 575–83. https://doi.org/10.1038/nrn1937.

      Harvey, Christopher D., Ryohei Yasuda, Haining Zhong, and Karel Svoboda. 2008. “The Spread of Ras Activity Triggered by Activation of a Single Dendritic Spine.” Science (New York, N.Y.) 321 (5885): 136–40. https://doi.org/10.1126/science.1159675.

      Losonczy, Attila, Judit K. Makara, and Jeffrey C. Magee. 2008. “Compartmentalized Dendritic Plasticity and Input Feature Storage in Neurons.” Nature 452 (7186): 436–41. https://doi.org/10.1038/nature06725.

      Poirazi, Panayiota, Terrence Brannon, and Bartlett W. Mel. 2003. “Pyramidal Neuron as Two-Layer Neural Network.” Neuron 37 (6): 989–99. https://doi.org/10.1016/S0896-6273(03)00149-1.

      Pulikkottil, Vinu Varghese, Bhanu Priya Somashekar, and Upinder S. Bhalla.     2021.

      “Computation, Wiring, and Plasticity in Synaptic Clusters.” Current Opinion in Neurobiology, Computational Neuroscience, 70 (October):101–12. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.conb.2021.08.001.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This useful manuscript reports mechanisms behind the increase in fecundity in response to sub-lethal doses of pesticides in the crop pest, the brown plant hopper. The authors hypothesize that the pesticide works by inducing the JH titer, which through the JH signaling pathway induces egg development. Evidence for this is, however, inadequate.

      We greatly appreciate your valuable comments and constructive suggestions for our work. All in all, the manuscript has been carefully edited and improved following your suggestions. We also provide more evidence to support our statements by conducting new experiments. First, we found that also EB treatment of adult females can stimulate egg-laying. Second, EB treatment in female adults increases the number of mature eggs in the ovary and ovarioles. Third, EB treatment in females enhances the expression of the kr-h1 gene in the whole body of BPH. Finally, EB treatment in female adults increases the JHIII titer, but has no impact on the 20E titer.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Gao et al. have demonstrated that the pesticide emamectin benzoate (EB) treatment of brown planthopper (BPH) leads to increased egg-laying in the insect, which is a common agricultural pest. The authors hypothesize that EB upregulates JH titer resulting in increased fecundity.

      Strengths:

      The finding that a class of pesticide increases the fecundity of brown planthopper is interesting.

      We greatly appreciate your positive comments on our work.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) EB is an allosteric modulator of GluCl. That means EB physically interacts with GluCl initiating a structural change in the cannel protein. Yet the authors' central hypothesis here is about how EB can upregulate the mRNA of GluCl. I do not know whether there is any evidence that an allosteric modulator can function as a transcriptional activator for the same receptor protein. The basic premise of the paper sounds counterintuitive. This is a structural problem and should be addressed by the authors by giving sufficient evidence about such demonstrated mechanisms before.

      Thank you for your question. As the reviewer points out, EB physically interacts with its target protein GluCl and thus affects its downstream signaling pathway. In the manuscript, we reported that EB-treated brown planthoppers display increased expression of GluCl in the adult stage (Fig. 5A). Actually, there are many studies showing that insects treated with insecticides can increase the expression of target genes. For example, the relative expression level of the ryanodine receptor gene of the rice stem borer, Chilo suppressalis was increased 10-fold after treatment with chlorantraniliprole, an insecticide which targets the ryanodine receptor (Peng et al., 2017). Besides this, in Drosophila, starvation (and low insulin) elevates the transcription level of the sNPF and tachykinin receptors (Ko et al., 2015; Root et al., 2011). In brown planthoppers, reduction in mRNA and protein expression of a nicotinic acetylcholine receptor α8 subunit is associated with resistance to imidacloprid (Zhang et al., 2015). RNA interference knockdown of α8 gene decreased the sensitivity of N. lugens to imidacloprid (Zhang et al., 2015). Hence, expression of receptor genes can be regulated by diverse factors including insecticide treatment. In our case, we found that EB can upregulate its target gene GluCl. However, we did not claim that EB functions as transcriptional activator for GluCl, and we still do not know why EB treatment changes the expression of GluCl in the brown planthopper. Considering our experiments are lasting several days, it might be an indirect (or secondary) effect caused by other factors, which change the expression of GluCl gene upon EB action of the channel. One reason is maybe that the allosteric interaction with GluCl by EB makes it dysfunctional and the cellular response is to upregulate the channel/receptor to compensate. We have inserted text on lines 738 - 757 to explain these possibilities.

      (2) I am surprised to see a 4th instar larval application or treatment with EB results in the upregulation of JH in the adult stages. Complicating the results further is the observation that a 4th instar EB application results in an immediate decrease in JH titer. There is a high possibility that this late JH titer increase is an indirect effect.

      Thank you for your question. Treatment with low doses or sublethal doses of insecticides might have a strong and complex impact on insects (Gandara et al., 2024; Gong et al., 2022; Li et al., 2023; Martelli et al., 2022). We kept the 4th instar of brown planthoppers feeding on EB for four days. They will develop to 5th instar after four days treatment, which is the final nymphal stage of BPH. Since the brown planthopper is a hemimetabolous insect, we cannot rule out the possibility that an indirect effect of treatment with EB results in the upregulation of JH in the adult stages. In this new revised manuscript, we investigated the impact of EB treatment in the adult stage. We found that female adults treated with EB also laid more eggs than controls (Figure 1-figure supplement 1A). The following experiments were performed in adults to address how EB treated stimulates egg-laying in adult brown planthopper.

      (1) We found that EB treatment in adults increases the number of mature eggs in ovary (new Figure 2-figure supplement 1). We add this results in lines 234 – 238 and 281-285.

      (2) We measured the JH titer after the female adults had been treated with EB. We found that EB can also increase the JH titer but has no impact on the 20E titer in the female adult (Figure 3-S3A and B). We add this results in lines 351 – 356 and 281-285.

      (3) EB treatment in adults increases the gene expression of JHAMT and Kr-h1 (Figure 3-S3C and D). We add this results in lines 378 – 379, lines 387-390 and lines 457-462.

      (3) The writing quality of the paper needs improvement. Particularly with respect to describing processes and abbreviations. In several instances the authors have not adequately described the processes they have introduced, thus confusing readers.

      Thank you for your suggestion. We have thoroughly revised the paper to improve clarity.

      (4) In the section 'EB promotes ovarian development' the authors have shown that EB treatment results in increased detention of eggs which contradicts their own results which show that EB promotes egg laying. Again, this is a serious contradiction that nullifies their hypothesis.

      Thank you for pointing this out. We revised the figure 2B to show number of mature eggs in the ovary. The number of mature eggs in ovaries of females that fed on EB was higher than in control females. We also show that BPH fed with EB laid more eggs than controls. Thus, our results suggest that EB promotes ovary maturation (and egg production) and also increases egg laying (Figure 1 and Table S1). Thus, we found that EB treatment can increase both the production of eggs and increase egg laying. We add this results in lines 234 – 238.

      (5) Furthermore, the results suggest that oogenesis is not affected by EB application. The authors should devote a section to discussing how they are observing increased egg numbers in EB-treated insects while not impacting Oogenesis.

      Thank you for your suggestions, and apologies for the lack of clarity in our initial explanation. First, we found that EB treatment led to an increase in the number of eggs laid by female brown planthoppers (Figure 1). Through dissection experiments, we observed that EB-treated females had more mature eggs in their ovaries (Figure 2A and B), indicating that the increased egg-laying was due to a larger production of mature eggs in the ovaries after EB treatment. This is now explained on lines 229-238.

      Additionally, since there is no systematic description of oogenesis in the brown planthopper, we were the first to observe the oogenesis process in this species using immunohistochemistry and laser confocal microscopy. Based on the developmental characteristics, we defined the different stages of oogenesis (Figure 2C, Figure 2-figure supplement 2). We did not observe any significant effect of EB treatment on the various stages of oogenesis, indicating that EB treatment does not impair normal egg development (Figure 2D). Instead, the increase in vitellogenin accelerates the production of mature eggs. This is now explained on lines 243-262.

      During the maturation process, eggs require uptake of vitellogenin, and an increase in vitellogenin (Vg) content can accelerate egg maturation, producing more mature eggs. Our molecular data suggest that EB treatment leads to an upregulation of vg expression. Based on these findings, we conclude that the increase in egg-laying caused by EB treatment is due to the upregulation of vg (Figure 3I), which raises vitellogenin content, promoting the uptake of vitellogenin by maturing eggs and resulting in the production of more mature eggs. We have revised the text on lines 389-395 to clarify this point.

      (6) Met is the receptor of JH and to my understanding, remains mostly constant in terms of its mRNA or protein levels throughout various developmental periods in many different insects. Therefore, the presence of JH becomes the major driving factor for physiological events and not the presence of the receptor Met. Here the authors have demonstrated an increase in Met mRNA as a result of EB treatment. Their central hypothesis is that EB increases JH titer to result in enhanced fecundity. JH action will not result in the activation of Met. Although not contradictory to the hypothesis, the increase in mRNA content of Met is contrary to the findings of the JH field thus far.

      Thank you for your comment. Our results showed that EB treatment can mildly increase (about 2-fold) expression of the Met gene in brown planthoppers (Figure 3G). And our data indicated that Met and FAMeT expression levels were not influenced so much by EB compared with kr-h1 and vg (Figure 3H and I). We agree that JH action will not result in the increase of Met. However, we cannot rule out the possibility of other factors (indirect effects), induced by EB treatment that increase the mRNA expression level of Met. One recent paper reported that downregulation of transcription factor CncC will increase met expression in beetles (see Figure 6A in this reference) (Jiang et al., 2023). Many studies have reported that insecticide treatment will activate the CncC gene signaling pathway, which regulates detoxification gene expression (Amezian et al., 2023; Fu et al., 2024; Hu et al., 2021). Hence, it is possible that EB might influence the CncC gene pathway which then induces met expression. This EB effect on met upregulation may be similar to the upregulation of GluCl and some other secondary effects. We have discussed this on lines 725-738.

      (7) As pointed out before, it is hard to rationalize how a 4th instar exposure to EB can result in the upregulation of key genes involved in JH synthesis at the adult stage. The authors must consider providing a plausible explanation and discussion in this regard.

      Thank you for your comments. It must be mentioned that although we exposed the BPH to EB at 4th instar, we make the insect feed on the EB-treated rice plants for four days. After that, the insect will develop into 5<sup>th</sup> instar, the final nymphal stage of brown planthopper. Since brown planthoppers do not have a pupal stage, this might cause the EB presented to the insects last a longer time even in the adult stage. Besides this, we found that EB treatment will increase the weight of adult females (Figure 1-figure supplement 3E and F), which indicates that EB might increase food intake in BPHs that might produce more insulin peptide. Insulin might increase the JH synthesis at the adult stage. In our revised study we also investigate EB impairment in adult BPHs. We found that, similar to the nymphal stage, EB treatment in adult BPHs also increases the egg laying. Furthermore, the JH titer was increased after treatment of BPH with EB in adults. Besides this, GluCl and kr-h1 genes were also up-regulated after EB treatment in the adult stage. We have discussed this on lines 739-746.

      (8) I have strong reservations against such an irrational hypothesis that Met (the receptor for JH) and JH-Met target gene Kr-h1 regulate JH titer (Line 311, Fig 3 supplemental 2D). This would be the first report of such an event on the JH field and therefore must be analysed in depth. I strongly suggest the authors remove such claims from the manuscript without substantiating it.

      Thank you for your suggestions and comments. We have changed our claims in this revised MS. We found that EB treatment can enhance Kr-h1 expression. We have no evidence to support that JH can induce met expression. We have rewritten the manuscript to avoid confusion (see text on lines 725-735).

      (9) Kr-h1 is JH/Met target gene. The authors demonstrate that silencing of Kr-h1 results in inhibition of FAMeT, which is a gene involved in JH synthesis. A feedback loop in JH synthesis is unreported. It is the view of this reviewer that the authors must go ahead with a mechanistic detail of Kr-h1 mediated JH upregulation before this can be concluded. Mere qPCR experiments are not sufficient to substantiate a claim that is completely contrary to the current understanding of the JH signalling pathway.

      Thank you for your suggestions and comments. We agree that only qPCR experiments are not enough to provide this kind of claim. More evidences need to be provided to support this. We have revised the MS to avoid confusion (see text on lines 725-735).

      (10) The authors have performed knockdowns of JHAMT, Met, and Kr-h1 to demonstrate the effect of these factors on fecundity in BPH. Additionally, they have performed rescue experiments with EB application on these knockdown insects (Figure 3K-M). This, I believe, is a very flawed experiment. The authors demonstrate EB works through JHAMT in upregulating JH titer. In the absence of JHAMT, EB application is not expected to rescue the phenotype. But the authors have reported a complete rescue here. In the absence of Met, the receptor of JH, either EB or JH is not expected to rescue the phenotype. But a complete rescue has been reported. These two experimental results contradict their own hypothesis.

      Thank you for your comments. We thought that this rescue is possible since knockdown of the genes is incomplete when using dsRNA injection (and residual gene expression allows for EB action). It is not a total knockout and actually, these genes still have a low level of expression in the dsRNA-injected insects. Since EB can upregulate the expression of JHAMT, Met, and Kr-h1, it is reasonable that EB treatment can rescue the down-regulation effects of these three genes and make fecundity completely rescued. We have clarified this on lines 411-413).

      (11) A significant section of the paper deals with how EB upregulates JH titer. JH is a hormone synthesized in the Corpora Allata. Yet the authors have chosen to use the whole body for all of their experiment. Changes in the whole body for mRNA of those enzymes involved in JH synthesis may not reflect the situation in Corpora Allata. Although working with Corpora Allata is challenging, discarding the abdomen and thorax region and working with the head and neck region of the insect is easily doable. Results from such sampling are always more convincing when it comes to JH synthesis studies.

      Thank you for your suggestions. Because the head is very difficult to separate from the thorax region in brown planthoppers as you can see in Author response image 1. We are now trying to answer how EB regulates JH synthesis using Drosophila as a model.

      Author response image 1.

      The brown planthopper

      (12) The phenomenon reported was specific to BPH and not found in other insects. This limits the implications of the study.

      Thank you for your comments. The brown planthopper is a serious insect pest on rice in Asia. Our findings can guide the use of this insecticide in the field. Besides this, our findings indicated that EB, which targets GluCl can impair the JH titer. Our findings added new implications for how a neuronal system influences the JH signaling pathway. We will further investigate how EB influences JH in the future and will use Drosophila as a model to study the molecular mechanisms.

      (13) Overall, the molecular experiments are very poorly designed and can at best be termed superficial. There are several contradictions within the paper and no discussion or explanation has been provided for that.

      Thank you for your comments. We have revised the paper according to your suggestions and added further explanation of our results in the discussion parts and hope the conclusions are better supported in the new version. We have discussed this on lines 725-746 and 778-799.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The brown plant hopper (BPH) is a notorious crop pest and pesticides are the most widespread means of controlling its population. This manuscript shows that in response to sublethal doses of the pesticide (EB), BPH females show enhanced fecundity. This is in keeping with field reports of population resurgence post-pesticide treatment. The authors work out the mechanism behind this increase in fecundity. They show that in response to EB exposure, the expression of its target receptor, GluCl, increases. This, they show, results in an increase in the expression of genes that regulate the synthesis of juvenile hormone (JH) and JH itself, which, in turn, results in enhanced egg-production and egg-laying. Interestingly, these effects of EB exposure are species-specific, as the authors report that other species of plant hoppers either don't show enhanced fecundity or show reduced fecundity. As the authors point out, it is unclear how an increase in GluCl levels could result in increased JH regulatory genes.

      We greatly appreciate your valuable comments and constructive suggestion to our work. We will try to figure out how EB interacts with its molecular target GluCl and then increases JH regulatory genes in the future work using Drosophila as models.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Overall, the molecular experiments are very poorly designed and can at best be termed superficial. There are several contradictions within the paper and no discussion or explanation has been provided for that.

      The authors should consider a thorough revision.

      Thank you for your comments. We have thoroughly revised the paper according to your suggestions and added further experiments and explanations of our results in the discussion parts.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      It would help the reader to have more schematics along with the figures. The final figure is helpful, but knowing the JH pathway, and where it acts would help with the interpretations as one reads the manuscript and the figures. The pathways represented in 4N or 5J are helpful but could be improved upon for better presentation.

      It would be nice to have some discussion on how the authors think EB exposure results in an increase in GluCl expression, and how that in turn affects the expression of so many genes.

      Thank you for your comments. We have thoroughly revised the paper according to your suggestions and added further experiments and explanations of how we think EB exposure results in an increase in JH titer and other genes in the discussion parts. We have added the test on lines 753-761.

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    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This is an important study that leverages a human-chimpanzee tetraploid iPSC model to test whether cis-regulatory divergence between species tends to be cell type-specific. The evidence supporting the study's primary conclusion--that species differences in gene regulation are enriched in cell type-specific genes and regulatory elements--is compelling, although attention to biases introduced by sequence conservation is merited, and the case that is made for cell type-specific changes reflecting adaptive evolution is incomplete. This work will be of broad interest in evolutionary and functional genomics.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      This study aims to identify gene expression differences exclusively caused by cis-regulatory genetic changes by utilizing hybrid cell lines derived from human and chimpanzee. While previous attempts have focused on specific tissues, this study expands the comparison to six different tissues to investigate tissue specificity and derive insights into the evolution of gene expression.

      One notable strength of this work lies in the use of composite cell lines, enabling a comparison of gene expression between human and chimpanzee within the same nucleus and shared trans factors environment. However, a potential weakness of the methodology is the use of bulk RNA-seq in diverse tissues, which limits the ability to determine cell-type-specific gene expression and chromatin accessibility regions.

      We agree that profiling single cells could lead to additional exciting discoveries. Although heterogeneity in cell types within samples will indeed reduce our power to detect cell-type-specific divergence, thankfully any heterogeneity will not introduce false positives, since our use of interspecies hybrids controls for differences in cell-type abundance. As a result, we think that the molecular differences we identified in this study represent a subset of the true cell-type specific cis-regulatory differences that would be identified with deep single-cell profiling. We have included a new paragraph in the discussion on future directions, highlighting the utility of single-cell profiling as an exciting future direction (lines 482-490): “In addition to following up on our findings on GAD1 and FABP7, there are other exciting future directions for this work. First, additional bulk assays such as those that measure methylation, chromatin conformation, and translation rate could lead to a better understanding of what molecular features ultimately lead to cell type-specific changes in gene expression. Furthermore, the use of deep single cell profiling of hybrid lines derived from iPSCs from multiple individuals of each species during differentiation could enable the identification of many more highly context-specific changes in gene expression and chromatin accessibility such as the differences in GAD1 we highlighted here. Finally, integration with data from massively parallel reporter assays and deep learning models will help us link specific variants to the molecular differences we identified in this study.”

      Another concern is the use of two replicates derived from the same pair of individuals. While the authors produced cell lines from two pairs of individuals in a previous study (Agloglia et al., 2021), I wonder why only one pair was used in this study. Incorporating interindividual variation would enhance the robustness of the species differences identified here.

      We agree that additional replicates, especially from lines from other individuals, would have improved the robustness of the species differences we identified. In our experience with these hybrid cells (as well as related work from many other labs), inter-species differences typically have much larger magnitudes than intra-species differences, so we expect that the vast majority of differences we identified would be validated with data from additional individuals. Unfortunately, differentiating additional cells and generating these data for this study would be cost-prohibitive. We now mention the use of additional replicates in lines 485-488 of the discussion: “Furthermore, the use of deep single cell profiling of hybrid lines derived from iPSCs from multiple individuals of each species during differentiation could enable the identification of many more highly context-specific changes in gene expression and chromatin accessibility such as the differences in GAD1 we highlighted here.”

      Furthermore, the study offers the opportunity to relate inter-species differences to trends in molecular evolution. The authors discovered that expression variance and haploinsufficiency score do not fully account for the enrichment of divergence in cell-type-specific genes. The reviewer suggests exploring this further by incorporating external datasets that bin genes based on interindividual transcriptomics variation as a measure of extant transcriptomics constraint (e.g., GTEx reanalysis by Garcia-Perez et al., 2023 - PMID: 36777183). Additionally, stratifying sequence conservation on ASCA regions, which exhibit similar enrichment of cell-type-specific features, using the Zoonomia data mentioned also in the text (Andrews et al., 2023 -- PMID: 37104580) could provide valuable insights.

      To address this, we used PhastCons scores computed from a 470-way alignment of mammals as we could not find publicly available PhastCons data from Zoonomia. When stratifying by the median PhastCons score of all sites in a peak, we observe very similar results to those obtained when stratifying by the constraint metric from the gnomAD consortium (see below). The one potential difference is that peaks in the top two bins have slightly weaker enrichment relative to the other bins when using PhastCons, but this is not the case when using gnomAD’s metric. We have elected to include this in the public review but not the manuscript as we are reluctant to add to the complexity of what is already complex analysis.

      Author response image 1.

      Finally, we think that comparisons of the properties of gene expression variance computed from ASE (as done by Starr et al.) and total expression (as done by Garcia-Perez et al.) is a very interesting, potentially complex question that is beyond the scope of this paper but an exciting direction for future work.

      Another potential strength of this study is the identification of specific cases of paired allele-specific expression (ASE) and allele-specific chromatin accessibility (ASCA) with biological significance.

      Prioritizing specific variants remains a challenge, and the authors apply a machine-learning approach to identify potential causative variants that disrupt binding sites in two examples (FABP7 and GAD1 in motor neurons). However, additional work is needed to convincingly demonstrate the functionality of these selected variants. Strengthening this section with additional validation of ASE, ASCA, and the specific putative causal variants identified would enhance the overall robustness of the paper.

      We strongly agree with the reviewer that additional work validating our results would be of considerable interest. We hope to perform follow-up experiments in the future. For now, we have been careful to present these variants only as candidate causal variants.

      Additionally, the authors support the selected ASE-ASCA pairs by examining external datasets of adult brain comparative genomics (Ma et al., 2022) and organoids (Kanton et al., 2019). While these resources are valuable for comparing observed species biases, the analysis is not systematic, even for the two selected genes. For example, it would be beneficial to investigate if FABP7 exhibits species bias in any cell type in Kanton et al.'s organoids or if GAD1 is species-biased in adult primate brains from Ma et al. Comparing these datasets with the present study, along with the Agoglia et al. reference, would provide a more comprehensive perspective.

      We agree with the reviewer’s suggestion that investigating GAD1 and FABP7 expression in other datasets is worthwhile. Unfortunately, the difference in human vs. chimpanzee organoid maturation rates and effects of culture conditions in Kanton et al. makes it unsuitable for plotting the expression of FABP7 as its expression is highly dependent on neuronal maturation. We therefore plotted bulk RNAseq data from multiple cortical regions from Sousa et al. 2017 (see below). This corroborates our claim that FABP7 has human-biased expression in adult humans compared to chimpanzees and rhesus macaques. We also investigated expression of GAD1 in the Ma et al. data as the reviewer suggested.

      Author response image 2.

      While there are differences in GAD1 expression between adult humans and chimpanzees, they are unlikely to be linked to the HAR we highlight as it is likely a transiently active cis-regulatory element (see below). In addition, some cell types seem to have chimpanzee-derived changes in GAD1 expression (e.g. SST positive neurons) whereas others seem to have human-derived changes in GAD1 expression (e.g. LAMP5 positive neurons).

      Author response image 3.

      While these are potentially interesting observations, we think that their inclusion in the manuscript might distract from our emphasis on the cell type-specific and developmental stage-specific of the changes in FABP7 and GAD1 expression we observe so we have not included them in the manuscript.

      The use of the term "human-derived" in ASE and ASCA should be avoided since there is no outgroup in the analysis to provide a reference for the observed changes.

      We agree with the reviewer that the term human-derived should be used with care and have changed the phrasing of line 230 to “human-chimpanzee differences in expression”. With regard to FABP7 we think that our analysis of the Ma et al. data—which includes data from rhesus macaques as an outgroup—justifies our use of “human-derived” in lines 360 and 457. As chimpanzee and macaque expression of FABP7 are similar but human expression is quite different, the most parsimonious explanation for our observations is that FABP7 upregulation occurred in the human lineage.

      Finally, throughout the paper, the authors refer to "hybrid cell lines." It has been suggested to use the term "composite cell lines" instead to address potential societal concerns associated with the term "hybrid," which some may associate with reproductive relationships (Pavlovic et al., 2022 -- PMID: 35082442). It would be interesting to know the authors' perspective on these concerns and recommendations presented in Pavlovic et al., given their position as pioneers in this field.

      We appreciate this question. Whether to refer to our fused cells as “hybrids” or not was indeed a question we considered at great length, starting from the very beginning of this project in 2015. From consultations with multiple bioethicists-- both formal and informal-- we have long been aware of the possibility of misunderstanding based on the word “hybrid”. However, we felt this possibility was outweighed by the long and well-established history of other scientists referring to interspecies fused cells as hybrids. This convention-- which is based on hundreds of papers about heterokaryons, somatic cell hybrids, and radiation hybrids-- goes back over 50 years (e.g. Bolund et al, Exp Cell Res 1969). Soon after the establishment of this nomenclature, cell fusion became widespread and ever since then it has become commonplace to generate interspecies hybrid cells from animals, plants and fungi.

      It is also important to note that in over two years since we published the first two papers on humanchimpanzee fused cells, we have been unable to find any misunderstanding of our use of the term “hybrid”. We have searched blogs, media articles, and social media, all with no evidence of misunderstanding. Therefore, in the current manuscript, rather than creating confusion by renaming a well-established approach, we have opted to clearly and prominently define hybrid cells: in the abstract of our paper we introduce the hybrid cells as “the product of fusing induced pluripotent stem (iPS) cells of each species in vitro.”

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      In this paper, Wang and colleagues build on previous technical and analytical achievements in establishing tetraploid human-chimpanzee hybrid iPSCs to investigate the cell type-specificity of allelespecific expression and allele-specific chromatin accessibility across six differentiated cell types (here, "allele-specific" indicates species differences with a cis-regulatory basis). The combined body of work is remarkable in its creativity and ambition and has real potential for overcoming major challenges in understanding the evolutionary genetics of between-species differences. The present paper contributes to these efforts by showing how differentiated cells can be used to test a long-standing hypothesis in evolutionary genetics: that cis-regulatory changes may be particularly important in divergence because of their potential for modularity.

      In my view, the paper succeeds in making this case: allele (species)-specific expression (ASE) and allelespecific chromatin accessibility (ASCA) are enriched in genes asymmetrically expressed in one cell type, and many cases of ASE/ASCA are cell type-specific. The authors do an excellent job showing that these results are robust across a set of possible analysis decisions. It is somewhat less clear whether these enrichments are primarily a product of relaxed constraint on cell type-specific genes or primarily result from positive selection in the human or chimp lineage. While the authors attempt to control for constraint using several variables (variance in ASE in humans and the sequence-based probability of haploinsufficiency score, pHI), these are imperfect proxies for constraint. For the pHI scores, enrichments for ASE also appear to be strongest in the least constrained genes. Overall, the relative role of relaxation of constraint versus positive selection is unresolved, although the manuscript's language leans in favor of an important role for selection.

      We agree with the reviewer and apologize for the wording that indeed focused more on positive selection than relaxed constraint. We have added language clarifying that our stance is that our analyses suggest some role for positive selection, but that we do not claim that positive selection plays a larger role than reduced constraint (lines 432-437): “Overall, this suggests that broad changes in expression in cell type-specifically expressed genes may be an important substrate for evolution but it remains unclear whether positive selection or lower constraint plays a larger role in driving the faster evolution of more cell type-specifically expressed genes. Future work will be required to more precisely quantify the relative roles of positive selection and evolutionary constraint in driving changes in gene expression.”

      The remainder of the manuscript draws on the cell type-specific ASE/ASCA data to nominate candidate genes and pathways that may have been important in differentiating humans and chimpanzees. Several approaches are used here, including comparing human-chimp ASE to the distribution of ASE observed in humans and investigating biases in the direction of ASE for genes in the same pathway. The authors also identify interesting candidate genes based on their role in development or their proximity to human accelerated regions (where many changes have arisen on the human lineage in otherwise deeply conserved sequence) and use a deep neural network to identify sequence changes that might be causally responsible for ASE/ASCA. These analyses have value and highlight potential strategies for using ASE/ASCA and hybrid cell line data as a hypothesis-generating tool. Of course, the functional follow-up that experimentally tested these hypotheses or linked sequence/expression changes in the candidate pathways to organismal phenotype would have strengthened the paper further- but this is a lot to ask in an already technically and analytically challenging piece of work.

      We thank the reviewer for the kind words and strongly agree that follow-up experiments and orthogonal analyses will be key in validating our results and establishing links to human-specific phenotypes.

      As a minor critique, the present paper is very closely integrated with other manuscripts that have used the hybrid human-chimp cell lines for biological insight or methods development. Although its contributions make it a strong stand-alone contribution, some aspects of the methods are not described in sufficient detail for readers to understand (even on a general conceptual level) without referencing that work, which may somewhat limit reader understanding.

      We agree with the points the reviewer raises regarding the clarity of our methods. We have amended several sections to provide more conceptual information while pointing the reader to other publications for the technical details. For convenience, we include the text here as well as in the new draft.

      Lines 207-214 now provide more intuition for the method used to detect lineage-specific selection: “Next, we sought to use our RNA-seq data to identify instances of lineage-specific selection. In the absence of positive selection, one would expect that an approximately equal number of genes in a pathway would have human-biased vs. chimpanzee-biased ASE. Significant deviation from this expectation (as determined by the binomial test) rejects the null hypothesis of neutral evolution, instead providing evidence of lineage-specific selection on this pathway. Using our previously published modification of this test that incorporates a tissue-specific measure of constraint on gene expression, we detected several signals of lineage-specific selection, some of which were cell type-specific (Starr et al., 2023, Additional file 2).” This is also reflected in the Methods in lines 729-731: “Positive selection on a gene set is only inferred if there is statistically significant human- or chimpanzee-biased ASE in that gene set (using an FDR-corrected p-value from the binomial test).”

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      The authors utilize chimpanzee-human hybrid cell lines to assess cis-regulatory evolution. These hybrid cell lines offer a well-controlled environment, enabling clear differentiation between cis-regulatory effects and environmental or other trans effects.

      In their research, Wang et al. expand the range of chimpanzee-human hybrid cell lines to encompass six new developmental cell types derived from all three germ layers. This expansion allows them to discern cell type-specific cis-regulatory changes between species from more pleiotropic ones. Although the study investigates only two iPSC clones, the RNA- and ATAC-seq data produced for this paper is a valuable resource.

      The authors begin their analysis by examining the relationship between allele-specific expression (ASE) as a measure of species divergence and cell type specificity. They find that cell-type-specific genes exhibit more divergent expression. By integrating this data with measures of constraint within human populations, the authors conclude that the increased divergence of tissue-specific genes is, at least in part, attributable to positive selection. A similar pattern emerges when assessing allele-specific chromatin accessibility (ASCA) as a measure of divergence of cis-regulatory elements (CREs) in the same cell lines.

      By correlating these two measures, the authors identify 95 CRE-gene pairs where tissue-specific ASE aligns with tissue-specific ASCA. Among these pairs, the authors select two genes of interest for further investigation. Notably, the authors employ an intriguing machine-learning approach in which they compare the inferred chromatin state of the human sequence with that of the chimpanzee sequence to pinpoint putatively causal variants.

      Overall, this study delves into the examination of gene expression and chromatin accessibility within hybrid cell lines, showcasing how this data can be leveraged to identify potential causal sequence differences underlying between-species expression changes.

      We appreciate this assessment.

      I have three major concerns regarding this study:

      1. The only evidence that the cells are indeed differentiated in the right direction is the expression of one prominent marker gene per cell type. Especially for the comparison of conservation between the differentiated cell types, it would be beneficial to describe the cell type diversity and the differentiation success in more detail.

      We appreciate this assessment. We agree that evidence beyond a single marker gene is necessary to demonstrate that the differentiations were successful and that a discussion of the limitations of these differentiations in the manuscript is worthwhile. We included figures showing additional marker genes and a thorough discussion of the differentiations in the supplement. For convenience, we have copied the supplemental figure and text here:

      “Before continuing with the analysis, we tested whether the differentiations were successful and contained primarily our target cell types. The very low expression of NANOG, a marker for pluripotency, across all differentiations indicates that the samples contain very few iPSCs (Agoglia et al., 2021). For cardiomyocytes (CM), NKX2-5, MYBPC3, and TNNT2 definitively distinguish CM from other heart cell types and their high expression indicates successful differentiations (Burridge et al., 2014). For motor neurons, the high expression of ELAVL2, a pan-neuronal marker, indicates a high abundance of neurons in the sample (Mickelsen et al., 2019). The expression of ISL1 and OLIG2 further demonstrates that these are motor neurons and not other types of neurons (Maury et al., 2015). For retinal pigment epithelium (RPE), the combined expression of MITF, PAX6, and TYRP1 provides strong evidence that the differentiations were successful in producing RPE cells (Sharma et al., 2019). For skeletal muscle, the very high expression of MYL1, MYLPF, and MYOG indicates that these samples contain a high proportion of skeletal muscle cells (Chal et al., 2016). In general, all these populations of cells contain some proportion of progenitors as there is detectable expression of MKI67 in all samples.

      The low expression of ALB (a marker for mature hepatocytes) and the high expression of TTR and GPC3 (markers for hepatocyte progenitors) combined with the high expression of HNF1B indicate that the bulk of the cells in the HP samples are hepatocyte progenitors rather than mature hepatocytes or endoderm cells, although there are likely some endoderm cells and immature hepatocytes in the sample (Hay et al., 2008; Mallanna & Duncan, 2013). Similarly, the combined expression of PDX1 and NKX6-1 and the low expression of NEUROG3 (a marker of endocrine progenitors which differentiate from pancreatic progenitors) in the PP samples indicates that these primarily contain pancreatic progenitors but likely contain some endocrine progenitors and endoderm cells (Cogger et al., 2017; Korytnikov & Nostro, 2016).

      Notably, HP and PP are closely related cell types that are derived from the same lineage. Indeed, heterogeneous multipotent progenitors can contribute to both the adult liver and adult pancreas in mice (Willnow et al., 2021). Progenitors that express PDX1 (often used as a marker for the pancreatic lineage) can differentiate into hepatocytes (Willnow et al., 2021). As a result, some overlap in the transcriptomic signature of both cell types is expected and we cannot rule out that the HP samples contain cells that could differentiate into pancreatic cells or that the PP samples contain cells that could differentiate into hepatocytes. However, the expression of NKX6-1 and GP2, markers for pancreatic progenitors, in the PP samples but not the HP samples indicates that these two populations of cells are distinct. Overall, the similarity of PP and HP likely explains the lower number of cell type-specific genes and genes showing cell type-specific ASE for these cell types. This similarity does not alter the conclusions presented in the main text.”

      Author response image 4.

      Author response image 5.

      Marker gene expression in different cell types. In order, the panels show: a marker for pluripotency, a marker gene for dividing cells, marker genes for cardiomyocytes, marker genes for hepatocytes and hepatocyte progenitors, marker genes for motor neurons, marker genes for pancreatic progenitors and more mature pancreatic cell types, marker genes for retinal pigment epithelial cells, and marker genes for skeletal myocytes. Hepatocyte progenitors and pancreatic progenitors generally show similar gene expression profiles. TPM: transcript per million.

      1. Check for a potential confounding effect of sequence similarity on the power to detect ASE or ASCA.

      We agree that checking for confounding by power to detect ASE or ASCA would increase confidence in our results. We have added supplementary figures 29-33 to show the results as well as a discussion of these figures in the text (lines 318-326):

      “Finally, it is possible that CREs and genes that are less conserved will have more SNPs, and therefore more power to call ASCA and ASE, leading to systematically biased estimates. There is a weak positive correlation between the number of SNPs and the -log10(FDR) for ASE and a weak negative or no correlation for ASCA (Supp Fig. 29). Similarly, we observe a weak relationship between the number of SNPs in CREs or genes and absolute log fold-change estimates (Supp Fig. 30). Although the relationship between the number of SNPs and ASE/ASCA is weak, we confirmed that cell type-specific genes and peaks are still strongly enriched for ASE and ASCA when stratifying by number of SNPs (Supp Fig. 31-32). Overall, our analysis suggests that the result that more cell type-specific genes and CREs are more evolutionarily diverged is robust to a variety of possible confounders.”

      Author response image 6.

      Relationship between number of SNPs and -log10(FDR) in a) ASE and -log10(pvalue) b) ASCA. These scatter plots show the relationship between the number of SNPs in a gene or peak and the -log10(FDR) for ASE or ASCA. Genes with significant ASE (FDR < 0.05) and peaks with significant ASCA (binomial p-value < 0.05) were annotated as blue dots, and all other genes and peaks were annotated as gray dots. All genes in each cell type in RNA-seq are shown. For clarity, the few outlier peaks with more than 200 SNPs are excluded from these plots.

      Author response image 7.

      Relationship between number of SNPs and absolute log2 fold-change in a) ASE and b) ASCA. These scatter plots show the relationship between the number of SNPs in a gene or peak and the estimated absolute log2 fold-change for ASE or ASCA. Genes with significant ASE (FDR < 0.05) and peaks with significant ASCA (binomial p-value < 0.05) were annotated as blue dots, and all other genes and peaks were annotated as gray dots. All genes in each cell type in RNA-seq are shown. For clarity, the few outlier peaks with more than 200 SNPs are excluded from these plots.

      Author response image 8.

      Cell type-specifically expressed genes are enriched for genes with ASE when stratifying by the number of SNPs per gene. a) Results when SKM is included. Genes were put into five bins with an equal number of genes in each bin. Genes with the fewest SNPs are in the 0-20% bin and genes with the most SNPs are in the 80-100% bin. Significance (using the Wald test) is indicated by asterisks where *** indicates p < 0.005, ** indicates p < 0.01, and * indicates p < 0.05. b) The same as in (a) but excluding SKM.

      Author response image 9.

      Cell type-specific peaks are enriched for ASCA when stratifying by the number of SNPs per peak. a) Peaks with an absolute log2 fold-change greater than or equal to 0.5 were called as having ASCA. Peaks were put into five bins with an equal number of peaks in each bin. Peaks with the fewest SNPs are in the 0-20% bin and genes with the most SNPs are in the 80-100% bin. Significance (using the Wald test) is indicated by asterisks where *** indicates p < 0.005, ** indicates p < 0.01, and * indicates p < 0.05. b) The same as in (a) but peaks with a binomial p-value less than or equal to 0.05 were called as having ASCA.

      1. In the last part the authors showcase 2 examples for which the log2 fold changes in chromatin state scores as inferred by the machine learning model Sei are used. This is an interesting and creative approach, however, more sanity checks on this application are necessary.

      We agree with the reviewer about the importance of sanity checks and apologize for omitting these from the manuscript. Below we highlight several such checks from previous publications:

      In the original Sei paper (Chen et al. 2022), the authors included several tests of their model’s ability to predict the effects on individual genetic variants. Using eQTL data from GTEx, they found that variants predicted to increase enhancer activity were more likely to be up-regulating eQTLs, and those predicted to increase polycomb repression had the expected repressive effect. These relationships became stronger when restricting the analysis only to fine-mapped eQTLs with >95% posterior probabilities of causality. Chen et al. also found that previously known disease-causing noncoding variants from the Human Gene Mutation Database were far more likely to reduce predicted enhancer/promoter activity than matched variants not linked to any disease.

      In addition, we note that a similar approach to ours was recently used to analyze all HARs and included considerable efforts to validate the utility of the Sei predictions in identifying causal variants (Whalen et al. 2023 in Neuron). For example, Whalen et al. found that the Sei output correlated with the effects of genetic variants on expression in a massively parallel reporter assay. They also found that the effect sizes predicted by Sei were much higher for variants in HARs than polymorphic variants in the human population, which is consistent with the idea that variants in HARs lie in highly conserved bases that are more likely to disrupt cis-regulatory elements. Finally, Whalen et al. found that effects on chromatin state predicted by Sei were generally highly correlated across tissues, supporting our approach that leverages all Sei outputs regardless of which cell type or tissue they correspond to. Overall, we think that Sei is a potentially powerful way to prioritize causal variants and that improved machine learning models trained on more extensive and context-specific data will be even more powerful.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We thank the reviewers for their comments and provide answers /clarifications and new data; There were 3 important recurrent points we already address here: 

      (a) The reviewers were concerned that the observed motor defects (measured by startle induced negative geotaxis- “SING”) where a reasonable behavioral measure of DAN function.

      Previously, Riemensperger et al., 2013 (PMID: 24239353) already linked synaptic loss of the dopaminergic PAM neurons to SING impairments. Furthermore, in a separate paper that we recently posted on BioRxiv, we show that the SING defects in PD mutants are rescued when the flies are fed L-DOPA (Kaempf et al 2024; BioRxiv). In this same paper we also show a very strong correlation between SING defects and defects in dopaminergic synaptic innervation of PAM DAN onto Mushroom body neurons. Both experiments suggest that the motor defects are the result of defects in dopamine release. Altogether, these data suggest that the combination of the SING assay and a quantification of the synaptic region of PAM DAN onto Mushroom body neurons is a suitable measure for DAN function.

      (b) The reviewers asked if the OPN dysfunction in young animals is connected to dopaminergic neuron (DAN) dysfunction in later life; 

      We have conducted additional experiments and have included the results (new Figure 6): Our young PD mutants (we included Aux<sup>R927G</sup>, Synj<sup>R258Q</sup> and LRRK2<sup>G2019S</sup>) show olfactory defects, but normal DAN function (measured by assessing the TH-labeled synaptic area onto the Mushroom body neurons and by SING). Aged PD mutants show both olfactory defects and DAN dysfunction. When we express the wildtype PD gene in (a.o.) OPN of PD mutants using the GH146-Gal4 (that does not drive expression in DAN) we are able to rescue the DAN defects (synaptic area and SING) that occur later in life. This indeed suggests there is a cell non-autonomous positive effect on DAN dysfunction that occurs at later stages in the life of our PD mutants (new Figure 6a). 

      In a set of independent experiments, we also fed one of our mutants (LRRK2<sup>G2019S</sup>) nicotine, activating Nicotinic acetylcholine receptors (that are also activated by the release of acetylcholine from cholinergic neurons such as OPN). While nicotine does not rescue the olfactory preference defect, the OPN synapse morphology defect or the OPN-associated defects in Ca<sup>2+</sup>-imaging in LRRK2<sup>G2019S</sup> mutants (Figure 6b), it does rescue the DAN-associated defects, including SING, synapse loss and defects in Ca<sup>2+</sup>-imaging (Figure 6c).

      Finally, we generated human induced dopaminergic neurons derived from iPSC with a LRRK2<sup>G2019S</sup> mutation and incubated these neurons with nicotine. Again, this induced a rescue of a LRRK2-mutant-induced defect in neuronal activity measured by Ca<sup>2+</sup>-imaging. This is specific to nicotine since the rescue was absent when cells were also incubated with mecamylamine, a non-competitive antagonist of nicotinic acetylcholine receptors, trumping the effects of nicotine (Figure 6d-e").

      (c) The reviewers indicated that the GH146 Gal 4 driver is expressed in other cells than OPN and thus, they noted that the defects we observe may not only be the result of OPN dysfunction. 

      It is correct that GH146-dependent Gal expression includes OPNs (that are cholinergic) and one pair of inhibitory APL neurons (that are GABAergic) (Li et al., 2017 (PMID: 29149607), Lui et al., 2009 (PMID: 19043409)). We have adapted the text to explicitly state this. There are only 2 APL per fly brain and our single cell sequencing experiment does not have the resolution to allow us to test if these neurons had a significant number of DEG. However, as indicated above (in (b)), we are able to rescue DAN dysfunction by mimicking cholinergic output (application of nicotine). These data do not exclude that APL-neuron problems contribute to the defects we observe in our PD mutants, but they do suggest that cholinergic output is critical to maintain normal DAN function.

      Public Reviews:  

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):  

      This is a fantastic, comprehensive, timely, and landmark pan-species work that demonstrates the convergence of multiple familial PD mutations onto a synaptic program. It is extremely well written and I have only a few comments that do not require additional data collection. 

      Thank you for this enthusiastic endorsement.

      Major Comments:  

      neurons and the olfactory system are acutely impacted by these PD mutations. However, I wonder if this is the case:  

      (1) In the functional experiments performing calcium imaging on projection neurons I could not find a count of cell bodies across conditions. Since the loss of OPNs could explain the reduced calcium signal, this is a critical control to perform. A differential abundance test on the single-cell data would also suffice here and be easy for the authors to perform with their existing data. 

      This is indeed an important number, and we had included this in the Supplemental figure 2a.

      Also, the number of DAN and Visual projection neurons were not significantly different between the genotypes (Supplemental Figure 2a in the manuscript). 

      (2) One of the authors' conclusions is that cholinergic

      a. Most Drosophila excitatory neurons are cholinergic

      and only a subpopulation appear to be dysregulated by these mutations. The authors point out that visual neurons also have many DEGs, couldn't the visual system also be dysregulated in these flies? Is there something special about these cholinergic neurons versus other cholinergic neurons in the fly brain? I wonder if they can leverage their nice dataset to say something about vulnerability. 

      Yes, the reviewer is right, and we have changed our wording to be more specific. The reviewer also noted correctly that neurons in the visual system rank high in terms of number of DEGs, but we did not conduct elaborate experiments to assess if these visual system neurons are functional. Of note, several of our mutants show (subtle) electroretinogram defects, that are a measure of visual system integrity, but further work is needed to determine the origin of these defects. 

      The question about the nature of the underlying vulnerability pathways is interesting. In preliminary work we have selected a number of DEGs common to vulnerable cells in several PD mutants, and conducted a screen where we manipulated the expression of these DEGs and looked for rescue of the olfactory preference defects in our PD mutants. The strongest genetic interaction was with genes encoding proteins involved in proteostasis (Atg8/LC3, Lamp1 and Hsc70-4) (Reviewer Figure 3). While interesting, these results require further work to understand the underlying molecular mechanisms. We present these preliminary data here but have not included them in the main manuscript. 

      b. As far as I can tell, the cross-species analysis of DEGs (Figure 3) is agnostic to neuronal cell type, although the conclusion seems to suggest only cholinergic neurons were contrasted. Is this correct? Could you please clarify this in the text as it's an important detail. If not, Have the authors tried comparing only cholinergic neuron DEGs across species? That would lend strength to their specificity argument. The results for the NBM are impressive. Could the authors add more detail to the main text here about other regions to the main text? 

      The reviewer is correct that we compiled the DEG of all affected cells, the majority of which are cholinergic neurons. 

      For the human data we focused on the NBM samples, because it contained the highest fraction of cholinergic neurons (as compared to the other 2 regions), but even so, it was not possible to analyze the cholinergic neurons alone because the fraction of cholinergic neurons in the human material was too low to be statistically analyzed independently. Note that both wildtype and PD samples contained a low number of cholinergic neurons (i.e. the DEG differences we detected were not the result of sequencing different types of cells - see also Supplemental Figure 3b and d). We have indicated this more clearly in the text.

      c. Uniquely within the human data, are cholinergic neurons more dysregulated than others? I understand this is not an early timepoint but would still be useful to discuss. 

      As indicated in the previous point, unfortunately the fraction of cholinergic neurons in the human material was low and we were not able to analyze these cells on their own. 

      Author response image 1.

      Upregulation of protein homeostasis rescues hyposmia across familial models of PD. Results of a behavioral screen for cell-specific rescue of olfactory preference defects of young PD fly models using up and downregulation of deregulated genes in affected cell types. Genes implicated in the indicated pathways are over expressed or knocked down using GH146-Gal4 (OPN>) and UAS-constructs (over expression or RNAi) . UAS-only (-) and OPN>UAS (+) were scored in parallel and are compared to each other. n.d. not determined; Bars represent mean ± s.e.m.; grey zone indicates the variance of controls; n≥5 independent experiments per genotype, with ~50 flies each; red bars: p<0.05 in ANOVA and Bonferroni-corrected comparison to UAS-only control.

      d. In the discussion, the authors say that olfactory neurons are uniquely poised to be dysregulated as they are large and have high activity. Is this really true compared to other circuits? I didn't find the references convincing and I am not sure this has been borne out in electron microscopy reconstructions for anatomy.  

      We agree and have toned down this statement.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):  

      Summary:  

      Pech et al selected 5 Parkinson's disease-causing genes, and generated multiple

      Drosophila lines by replacing the Drosophila lrrk, rab39, auxilin (aux), synaptojanin

      (synj), and Pink1 genes with wild-type and pathogenic mutant human or Drosophila cDNA sequences. First, the authors performed a panel of assays to characterize the phenotypes of the models mentioned above. Next, by using single-cell RNA-seq and comparing fly data with human postmortem tissue data, the authors identified multiple cell clusters being commonly dysregulated in these models, highlighting the olfactory projection neurons. Next, by using selective expression of Ca<sup>2+</sup>-sensor GCaMP3 in the OPN, the authors confirmed the synaptic impairment in these models, which was further strengthened by olfactory performance defects.  

      Strengths:  

      The authors overall investigated the functionality of PD-related mutations at endogenous levels and found a very interesting shared pathway through singlecell analysis, more importantly, they performed nice follow-up work using multiple assays.  

      Weaknesses:  

      While the authors state this is a new collection of five familial PD knock-in models, the Aux<sup>R927G</sup> model has been published and carefully characterized in Jacquemyn et al., 2023. ERG has been performed for Aux R927G in Jacquemyn et al., 2023, but the findings are different from what's shown in Figure 1b and Supplementary Figure 1d, which the authors should try to explain. 

      We should have explained this better: the ERG assay in Jacquemyn et al., and here, in Pech et al., are different. While the ERGs in our previous publication were recorded under normal endogenous conditions, the flies in our current study were exposed to constant light for 7 days. This is often done to accelerate the degeneration phenotype. We have now indicated this in the text (and also refer to the different experimental set up compared to Jacquemyn et al).

      Moreover, according to the authors, the hPINK1control was the expression of human PINK1 with UAS-hPINK1 and nsyb-Gal4 due to technical obstacles. Having PINK1 WT being an overexpression model, makes it difficult to explain PINK1 mutant phenotypes. It will be strengthened if the authors use UAS-hPINK1 and nsyb-Gal4 (or maybe ubiquitous Gal4) to rescue hPink1L347P and hPink1P399L phenotypes.

      The UAS-hPink1 was originally created by the Lu lab (Yang et al., 2003, PMID: 12670421) and has been amply used before in Pink1 loss-of-function backgrounds (e.g. in Yang et al., 2006, PMID: 16818890). In our work, the control we refer to was UAS-hPink1 expression (driven by nSyb-gal4) in a Pink1 knock-out background. For unknown reasons we were unable to replace the fly Pink1 with a human pink1 cDNA, we explained this in the methods section and added a remark in the new manuscript.

      In addition, although the authors picked these models targeting different biology/ pathways, however, Aux and Synj both act in related steps of Clathrin-mediated endocytosis, with LRRK2 being their accessory regulatory proteins. Therefore, is the data set more favorable in identifying synaptic-related defects? 

      We picked these particular mutants, as they were the first we created in the context of a much larger collection of “PD flies” (see also Kaempf et al 2024, BioRxiv). We have made adaptations to the text to tone down the statement on the broad selection of mutants. 

      GH146-GAL4+ PNs are derived from three neuroblast lineages, producing both cholinergic and GABAergic inhibitory PNs (Li et al, 2017). Therefore, OPN neurons have more than "cholinergic projection neurons". How do we know from singlecell data that cholinergic neurons were more vulnerable across 5 models? 

      The reviewer is correct that GH146 drives expression in other cells than OPN and we now clearly state this in the text. We do present additional arguments that substantiate our conclusion that cholinergic neurons are affected: (1) our single cell sequencing identifies the most DEGs in cholinergic neurons. (2) nicotine (a compound activating cholinergic receptors) rescues dopamine-related problems in old PD-mutant flies. (3) Likewise, nicotine also alleviates problems we observed in LRRK2 mutant human induced dopaminergic neurons and this is blocked by mecamylamine, a non-competitive antagonist of nicotinic acetylcholine receptors.

      In Figure 1b, the authors assumed that locomotion defects were caused by dopaminergic neuron dysfunction. However, to better support it, the author should perform rescue experiments using dopaminergic neuron-specific Gal4 drivers. Otherwise, the authors may consider staining DA neurons and performing cell counting. Furthermore, the authors stated in the discussion, that "We now place cholinergic failure firmly ahead of dopaminergic system failure in flies", which feels rushed and insufficient to draw such a conclusion, especially given no experimental evidence was provided, particularly related to DA neuron dysfunction, in this manuscript. 

      Previously, Riemensperger et al., 2013 (PMID: 24239353) already linked synaptic loss of the dopaminergic PAM neurons to locomotion impairments (measured by SING). Furthermore, in a separate paper we show that the motor defects (SING) observed in PD mutants are rescued when the flies are fed L-DOPA, but not D-DOPA (Kaempf et al 2024; BioRxiv). In this same paper, we also show a significant correlation between SING defects and defects in dopaminergic synaptic innervation of PAM DAN onto Mushroom body neurons. We have referred to both articles in the revised manuscript.

      The statement on cholinergic failure ahead of dopaminergic failure was made in the context of the sequence of events: young flies did not show DAN defects, but they did display olfactory defects. The statement was indeed not meant to imply causality. However, we have now conducted new experiments where we express wild type PD genes using GH146-Gal4 (that does not express in DAN) in the PD mutants and assess dopaminergic-relevant phenotypes later in life (see also new Figure 6 in the manuscript). This shows that GH146Gal4-specific rescue is sufficient to alleviate the DAN-dependent SING defects in old flies. Likewise, as indicated above, application of nicotine is also sufficient to rescue the DAN-associated defects (in PD mutant flies and human induced mutant dopaminergic neurons).  

      It is interesting to see that different familial PD mutations converge onto synapses. The authors have suggested that different mechanisms may be involved directly through regulating synaptic functions, or indirectly through mitochondria or transport. It will be improved if the authors extend their analysis on Figure 3, and better utilize their single-cell data to dissect the mechanisms. For example, for all the candidates listed in Figure 3C, are they all altered in the same direction across 5 models?  

      This is indeed the case: the criteria for "commonly deregulated" included that the DEGs are changed in the same direction across several mutants. We ranked genes according to their mean gene expression across the mutants as compared it to the wildtype control: i.e. only if the DEGs are all up- or all down-regulated they end up on the top or bottom of our list. We added a remark in the revised manuscript. In preliminary work we also selected a number of the DEGs and conducted a screen where we manipulated the expression of these genes looking for rescue of the olfactory preference defects in our PD mutants. The strongest genetic interaction was with genes encoding proteins involved in proteostasis (Atg8/LC3, Lamp1 and Hsc70-4; and we also show a genetic interaction between EndoA and Lrrk in this work and in Matta et al., 2012) (Author response image 1 above). While interesting, these results require further work to understand the underlying molecular mechanisms. We present these preliminary data here, but have not included them in the main manuscript. 

      While this approach is carefully performed, the authors should state in the discussions the strengths and the caveats of the current strategy. For example, what kind of knowledge have we gained by introducing these mutations at an endogenous locus? Are there any caveats of having scRNAseq at day 5 only but being compared with postmortem human disease tissue?  

      We have included a “strengths and caveats section” in the discussion addressing these points.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):  

      Summary:  

      This study investigates the cellular and molecular events leading to hyposmia, an early dysfunction in Parkinson's disease (PD), which develops up to 10 years prior to motor symptoms. The authors use five Drosophila knock-in models of familial PD genes (LRRK2, RAB39B, PINK1, DNAJC6 (Aux), and SYNJ1 (Synj)), three expressing human genes and two Drosophila genes with equivalent mutations.  

      The authors carry out single-cell RNA sequencing of young fly brains and singlenucleus RNA sequencing of human brain samples. The authors found that cholinergic olfactory projection neurons (OPN) were consistently affected across the fly models, showing synaptic dysfunction before the onset of motor deficits, known to be associated with dopaminergic neuron (DAN) dysfunction.  

      Single-cell RNA sequencing revealed significant transcriptional deregulation of synaptic genes in OPNs across all five fly PD models. This synaptic dysfunction was confirmed by impaired calcium signalling and morphological changes in synaptic OPN terminals. Furthermore, these young PD flies exhibited olfactory behavioural deficits that were rescued by selective expression of wild-type genes in OPNs.  

      Single-nucleus RNA sequencing of post-mortem brain samples from PD patients with LRRK2 risk mutations revealed similar synaptic gene deregulation in cholinergic neurons, particularly in the nucleus basalis of Meynert (NBM). Gene ontology analysis highlighted enrichment for processes related to presynaptic function, protein homeostasis, RNA regulation, and mitochondrial function.  

      This study provides compelling evidence for the early and primary involvement of cholinergic dysfunction in PD pathogenesis, preceding the canonical DAN degeneration. The convergence of familial PD mutations on synaptic dysfunction in cholinergic projection neurons suggests a common mechanism contributing to early non-motor symptoms like hyposmia. The authors also emphasise the potential of targeting cholinergic neurons for early diagnosis and intervention in PD.  

      Strengths:  

      This study presents a novel approach, combining multiple mutants to identify salient disease mechanisms. The quality of the data and analysis is of a high standard, providing compelling evidence for the role of OPN neurons in olfactory dysfunction in PD. The comprehensive single-cell RNA sequencing data from both flies and humans is a valuable resource for the research community. The identification of consistent impairments in cholinergic olfactory neurons, at early disease stages, is a powerful finding that highlights the convergent nature of PD progression. The comparison between fly models and human patients' brains provides strong evidence of the conservation of molecular mechanisms of disease, which can be built upon in further studies using flies to prove causal relationships between the defects described here and neurodegeneration.  

      The identification of specific neurons involved in olfactory dysfunction opens up potential avenues for diagnostic and therapeutic interventions.  

      Weaknesses:  

      The causal relationship between early olfactory dysfunction and later motor symptoms in PD remains unclear. It is also uncertain whether this early defect contributes to neurodegeneration or is simply a reflection of the sensitivity of olfactory neurons to cellular impairments. The study does not investigate whether the observed early olfactory impairment in flies leads to later DAN deficits. Additionally, the single-cell RNA sequencing analysis reveals several affected neuronal populations that are not further explored. The main weakness of the paper is the lack of conclusive evidence linking early olfactory dysfunction to later disease progression.

      We agree that this is an interesting avenue to pursue and as indicated above in Figure 6 and in the reworked manuscript, we have now included data that strengthens the connection between early OPN defects and the later DAN dependent problems. Additional future work will be needed to elucidate the mechanisms of this cell-non autonomous effect. 

      The rationale behind the selection of specific mutants and neuronal populations for further analysis could be better qualified. 

      We have added further explanation in the reworked text.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):  

      Minor Comments:  

      (1) Questions about the sequencing methods and analysis approaches. From reading the methods and main text, I was confused about aspects of the Drosophila single-cell profiling. Firstly, did the authors multiplex their fly samples? 

      No, we did not. Genotypes were separately prepared and sequenced, but they were all processed in parallel to avoid batch effects. 

      Secondly, it seems like there are two rounds of dataset integration performed, Harmony and Seurat's CCA-based method. This seems unorthodox. Could the authors comment on why they perform two integrations? 

      Thanks for pointing this out, this was a mistake in the methods section (copied from a much older version of the manuscript). In this manuscript, we only used harmony for dataset integration and removed the methods on Seurat-CCA. 

      Finally, for all dataset integrations please state in the main text how datasets were integrated (by age, genotype, etc). 

      Datasets were integrated by sample id, corresponding to individual libraries.

      (2) The authors focus on OPNs with a really nice set of experiments. I noticed however that Kenyon cells were also dysregulated. What about Olfactory sensory neurons? Could the authors provide comments on this? 

      Olfactory sensory neurons are located in the antennae of the fly brain and were not captured by our analysis. However, the GH146-Gal4-specific rescue experiments indicate these sensory neurons are likely not severely functionally impaired. Kenyon cells are an interesting affected cell type to look at in future experiments, as they are directly connected to DANs.

      (3) There are several citations of Jenett et al 2012 that seem wrong (related to single-cell datasets).

      We are sorry for this and have corrected this in the text.  

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):  

      (1) In the key resources table, a line called CG5010k.o. (chchd2k.o.) was mentioned, but was not used in the paper. The authors should remove it. 

      Sorry, this was from a previous older version of the manuscript. We fixed this.

      (2) Why did the authors use human CDS for LRRK2, Rab39B, and PINK1, but fly CDS for Aux and Synj1? Is it based on the conservation of amino acid residues? Although the authors cited a review (Kalia & Lang, 2015) to justify the selection of the mutations, for the interest of a broad audience, it is recommended that the authors expand their introduction for the rationale of their selection, including the pathogenicity of each selected mutation, original human genetics evidence, conservation between fly and human. 

      (a) We used Drosophila cDNA for rescue experiments with aux and synj since knockin of the human homologues at the locus of these genes did not rescue its loss-offunction (lethality). 

      (b) We expanded the introduction to provide further explanation on the selection of our mutants we analyzed in this work. We picked these particular mutants, as they were the first we created in the context of a much larger collection of “PD flies” (see also Kaempf et al 2024, BioRxiv). We have made adaptations to the text to tone down the statement on the broad selection of mutants. 

      (3) Supplemental Figure 1a, is mRNA level normalized to an internal control? If not, it is not appropriate to compare the results directly from two primer sets, since each primer set may have different amplification efficiency. 

      We are sorry for the lack of information. Indeed, mRNA levels were determined using the Δ-Δ-CT method, where Ct values were first normalized to the housekeeping gene Rp49, and next expressed as a percent of endogenous Drosophila gene expression. We expanded the methods section and now also enlist the primers for Rp49 along with the other qPCR primers in Supplemental File 1.

      (4) For Figure 2, it may be helpful to have a supplemental table or figure showcasing the clusters with significant changes (based on cell number-adjusted DEGs) for each model, i.e., what are those black cell clusters in Figure 2? "Thus, cellular identity and cellular composition are preserved in young PD fly models." In Figure S2A, the authors only show cell composition percentages for 3 cell clusters, are the bars 95% standard error? 

      The error bars in Supplemental Figure 2a represent the 95 % CI. We have included a new supplemental table with the number of cells per cell cluster for each mutant (Supplemental File 3).

      What about the remaining 183 cell clusters? Are there any KI-model cell clusters that are statistically different than controls? What about the annotated cell types (e.g., the 81 with cell identities)? Please consider at least providing or pointing to a table to state how many have significant differences, or if there are truly none. 

      As mentioned above, we have included a new supplemental table with the number of cells per cell cluster for each mutant (Supplemental File 3).

      (5) What are the rows in the sunburst plot in Figure 3a? Please be more descriptive in the figure legend or label the figure. 

      We have expanded on this in the figure legend and now also include a summary of the SynGO analysis in Supplemental File 7. In Figure 3a, a summary sunburst plot is presented, reflecting the GO terms (inner rings, indicated in a) with their subdivided levels (the complete list is provided in Supplemental File 7). In Figure 3a’ and a” the DEG data acquired from the different datasets (human vs fly) are applied to the sunburst plot where rings are color-coded according to enrichment Q-value.

      (6) In Table S4, which clusters (in the table) have normalized residuals that are outside of the 95% confidence interval of the regression model displayed in Figure S2e? They use this analysis to adjust for cell number bias and point out the "most significant cell clusters" affected in each model. This may be helpful for readers who want to grab a full list of responsive clusters. 

      We have included this information in Supplemental File 5 (Tab “Cell types outside of CIs”) in the supplemental data of the manuscript.

      (7) The human samples used all have different LRRK2 variants: for the crossspecies comparisons, do Lrrk flies have greater similarity to the human PD cases compared to the other fly models?

      No, comparing the vulnerable gene signatures from each of the fly mutants to the DEGs from the human samples does not show any greater similarity between the LRRK mutants compared to the other mutants.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):  

      Clarifications required:  

      Some of the mutations used are not common PD-associated genes, the authors should explain the rationale behind using these particular mutants, and not using well-established fly models of PD (like for example GBA flies) or SNCA overexpression.

      We opted to use knock-ins of mutations that are causal to Parkinsonism. Given flies do not express an alpha-synuclein homologue we were not able to add this ‘as such’ to our collection. Future work can indeed also include expression models or risk factor models (like GBA). As also requested by another reviewer, we did add further rationale and explanation to the genes we chose to analyze in this work.

      Why starvation rather than lifespan for PD models? For the lifespan data shown there are no error bars, if the stats test is a log-rank or Cox proportional hazards (usually used in survival analysis, this should be stated), it would also be good to have the survival plots for all the survival during starvation, not just PINK1. 

      While starvation assays can provide valuable insights into acute metabolic and physiological stress responses, we acknowledge that lifespan is a critical parameter and would provide a more comprehensive understanding of the PD models in our study. Based on this consideration and the reviewer’s feedback we have removed the starvation data from the manuscript. Unfortunately, we did not perform lifespan experiments, which is why these data were not included in the manuscript. However, based on our observations (though not detailed analysis), all genotypes tested—except for the PINK1 mutants—appeared to have a normal lifespan. For PINK1 mutants, most flies died by 25 days of age. Therefore, we conducted our assays using 15-day-old PINK1 mutant flies.

      Do the fly models used have different lifespans, and how close to death was the SING assay performed? Different mutations show different effects, most phenotypes are really mild (hRab39BG192R has no phenotype), and PINK1 has the strongest, are these simply reflections of how strong the model is?  

      The ages of flies we analyzed are indicated in the legend. As mentioned before, all but PINK1 mutants- had a normal life span: i.e. we did not detect abnormal low number of flies or premature death at 50 days of age, except for the PINK1 mutants tested in this manuscript where most flies died by 25 days of age. Therefore, we conducted our assays using 15-day-old PINK1 mutant flies.

      Rab39G192R has no phenotype in the tests presented, suggesting no degeneration, why use RabG192R for scRNA seq? Seems an odd choice, the authors should explain. 

      Single-cell sequencing was initiated before the full phenotypic characterization of all mutants was completed. Although basic characterization of the Rab39<sup>G192R</sup> mutant PD flies revealed either no significant phenotypes or only mild effects in the assays performed (Figure 1), the sequencing data provided additional insights into potential cellular and molecular alterations. Furthermore, all PD-mutant knock-ins, including Rab39<sup>G192R</sup> mutant PD flies, show dysfunctional synaptic terminals of their OPN neurons as they had significantly weaker Ca<sup>2+</sup>-responses, even though their synaptic area was increased (Figure 4 g-h). Furthermore, all mutants also had olfactory behavior defects (Figure 5 a). 

      When the authors state that “For example, in the NBM, an area associated with PD (Arendt et al., 1983), 20% of the DEG that has an orthologous gene in the fly are also found among the most deregulated genes across PD fly models" a test should be performed to confirm this is a significant overlap (such as a hypergeometric test). 

      We have performed this test, of the 2486 significantly differential human genes, 1149 have a fly orthologue, and of these, 28.46 % overlap with the deregulated fly genes (5 % top and bottom gene as shown in Supplemental Table 7). Performing a hypergeometric test confirms that this overlap is significant, with a p-value of 9.06e<sup>76</sup>. We have included this in the text.

      The authors speak of deregulation when speaking of the overlap between human and fly DE genes, but do the over-expressed genes in flies overlap with overexpressed genes in humans, or is the direction of transcription deregulation not concordant? If it is mostly not concordant, can the authors please comment as to why they might think that is the case? 

      In our fly experiments, we identified DEG in affected cell types and then defined common DEG by looking at the average change across the fly mutants. Genes that show a consistent change (all or mostly up, or all or mostly down) in the different mutants will end at the top of our list while genes that are up in some mutants and downregulated in others will average out and not end up in our commonly deregulated gene list. For comparison to the human data, we only looked for the presence of the human homologue, but did not assess if the change occurred in the same direction. More work will be needed to define the most relevant changes, but in a mini-screen we did select a number of DEG present in fly and human datasets from different functional categories and tested if they genetically interact with our PD mutants. As shown in Reviewer Figure 3, we find that modulating proteostasis pathway-encoding genes rescue the olfactory preference defect across many PD mutants. 

      Can the authors explain why only the NMB region was used for comparison with the fly data?  

      We used the NMB because this region has the highest number of cholinergic neurons to compare the deregulation in those neurons to the deregulation in the cholinergic OPN of mutant PD flies.

      In Figure 4, can the genotypes please be stated in full and why is the hPINK1 fly giving no detectable signal? 

      Despite several attempts, we failed to knock-in wild type hPink1 in the fly pink1 locus. Therefore, the hPink1 control used throughout the manuscript was the nSybGal4>UAS-hPink1 in Pink1 knock-out background, except for Figure 4. Particularly, for experiments in this figure, we could not use UAS-hPink1 with nSyb-Gal4, since we needed OPN-specific expression of Gal4 to drive UAS-GCamP expression.

      Therefore, this was labeled as “not determined” (“n.d.”), as indicated in the figure and the legend. We explained this better in the methods section, added a remark in the new manuscript and expanded the legend of Figure 4.

      The paper states that" These findings imply that factors affecting the function of cholinergic neurons might, by the absence of insufficient innervation, lead to DAN problems and degeneration, warranting further exploration of the underlying molecular mechanisms", this should be less strong, the paper never looks at DAN, only at OPN neurons. Fly neurons are mostly cholinergic, and human neurons are mostly glutamatergic, so jumping from one system to the other might not be as straightforward, the authors should comment on this. 

      We now included a new exciting experiment where we assessed DAN function in aged PD mutants where the wildtype gene was expressed in OPN using GH146-Gal4. We find this manipulation rescued DAN defects (measured by SING) in older flies. We further corroborated our observation by “replacing” cholinergic innervation with nicotine feeding in PD mutants. Also, this rescues the SING defect as well as the defects in neuronal activity in PAM DAN (based on live synaptic calcium imaging). Finally, we also show that incubating LRRK2<sup>G2019S</sup> mutant human induced dopaminergic neurons with nicotine is sufficient to rescue functional defects in these neurons (measured using calcium imaging). We included this data in the new manuscript and show them also in Figure 6 above (new Figure 6 in the revised manuscript). 

      Experiments that would improve the manuscript:  

      Does rescue of OPN function also rescue later progressive symptoms (geotaxis response)?  

      It does, as indicated in the previous point and shown in Figure 6.

      Do the fly PD models used show DAN degeneration? This could be assessed by stains with anti-TH stains. 

      We quantified DAN cell bodies using anti-TH, but see very little or no loss. There is, however, loss of synaptic innervation of the PAM onto the mushroom bodies. We included the data in a new Figure 6 (see also Figure 6). Furthermore, we have quantified this across the genetic space of familial Parkinsonism in Kaempf et al., 2024, BioRxiv. Note that this phenotype is also rescued by expressing wildtype CDS in their OPN using GH146-Gal4.

      Minor issues: 

      The final sentence on page 5 is repetitive with the introduction. 

      Indeed, we removed the redundant sentence.

      First line of the new section on page 6, the authors probably mean cholinergic olfactory projection neurons, not just cholinergic neurons. 

      Yes, and corrected.

      At the top of page 7 the authors state: "Additionally, we also found enrichment of genes involved in RNA regulation and mitochondrial function that are also important for the functioning of synaptic terminals", where is the data showing this? The authors should point to the supplemental file showing this.  

      We now included a reference to Supplemental File 7 that includes a summary of those data. Additionally, we also included references to back this claim.

      Just before the discussion, Rab39BG193R should be Rab39BG192R.  

      Sorry for this, it is now corrected.

      Stating "fifth row" in Fig 5c and d is confusing, can the figure be labelled more clearly?  

      We modified the figure (including extra marks and colors) and expanded the legend and the main text to differentiate better between expression of the rescues in OPN versus T1 neurons revealing that only expression in OPN neurons rescues the olfactory defects while expression in T1 neurons does not.

      In the methods, the authors describe clustering done both in Scanpy and Seurant, why were both run? Which clustering was used for further analysis?

      We only used Scanpy with Harmony and removed the methods on Seurat-CCA. Thanks for pointing this out, this was a mistake in the methods section (copied from a previous version of the manuscript).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer 1 (Public Comments):

      (1) The central concern for this manuscript is the apparent lack of reproducibility. The way the authors discuss the issue (lines 523-554) it sounds as though they are unable to reproduce their initial results (which are reported in the main text), even when previous versions of AlphaFold2 are used. If this is the case, it does not seem that AlphaFold can be a reliable tool for predicting antibody-peptide interactions.

      The driving point behind the multiple sequence alignment (MSA) discussion was indeed to point out that AlphaFold2 (AF2) performance when predicting scFv:peptide complexes is highly dependent upon the MSA, but that is a function of MSA generation algorithm (MMseqs2, HHbiltz, jackhmmer, hhsearch, kalign, etc) and sequence databases, and less an intrinsic function of AF2. It is important to report MSA-dependent performance precisely because this results in changing capabilities with respect to peptide prediction.

      Performance also significantly varies with the target peptide and scFv framework changes. By reporting the varying success rates (as a function of MSA, peptide target, and framework changes) we aim to help future researchers craft modified algorithms that can achieve increased reliability at protein-peptide binding predictions. Ultimately, tracking down how MSA generation details vary results (especially when the MSA’s are hundreds long) is significantly outside the scope of this paper. Our goal for this paper was to show a general method for identification of linear antibody epitopes using only sequence information, and future work by us or others should focus on optimization of the process. 

      (2) Aside from the fundamental issue of reproducibility, the number of validating tests is insufficient to assess the ability of AlphaFold to predict antibody-peptide interactions. Given the authors' use of AlphaFold to identify antibody binding to a linear epitope within a whole protein (in the mBG17:SARS-Cov-2 nucleocapsid protein interaction), they should expand their test set well beyond Myc- and HA-tags using antibody-antigen interactions from existing large structural databases.

      Performing the calculations at the scale that the reviewer is requesting is not feasible at this time. We showed in this manuscript that we were able to predict 3 of 3 epitopes, including one antigen and antibody pair that have not been deposited into the PDB with no homologs. While we feel that an N=3 is acceptable to introduce this method to the scientific community, we will consider adding more examples of success and failure in the future to optimize and refine the method as computational resources become available. Notably, future efforts that attempt high-throughput predictions of this class using existing databases should take particular care to avoid contamination.

      (3) As discussed in lines 358-361, the authors are unsure if their primary control tests (antibody binding to Myc-tag and HA-tag) are included in the training data. Lines 324-330 suggest that even if the peptides are not included in the AlphaFold training data because they contain fewer than 10 amino acids, the antibody structures may very well be included, with an obvious "void" that would be best filled by a peptide. The authors must confirm that their tests are not included in the AlphaFold training data, or re-run the analysis with these templates removed.

      First, we address the simpler question of templates.

      The reruns of AF2 with the local 2022 rebuild, the most reproducible method used with results most on par with the MMSEQS server in the Fall of 2022, were run without templates. This is because the MSA was generated locally; no templates were matched and generated locally. The only information passed then was the locally generated MSA, and the fasta sequence of the unchanging scFv and the dynamic epitope sequence. Because of how well this performed despite the absence of templates, we can confidently say the inclusion of the template flag is not significant with respect to how universally accurately PAbFold can identify the correct epitope. 

      Second, we can partially address the question of whether the AlphaFold models had access to models suitable, in theory, for “memorization” of pertinent structural details. 

      With respect to tracking the exact role and inclusion of specific PDB entries, the AF2 paper provides the following:

      “Structures from the PDB were used for training and as templates (https://www.wwpdb.org/ftp/pdb-ftp-sites; for the associated sequence data and 40% sequence clustering see also https://ftp.wwpdb.org/pub/pdb/derived_data/ and https://cdn.rcsb.org/resources/sequence/clusters/bc-40.out). Training used a version of the PDB downloaded 28 August 2019, while the CASP14 template search used a version downloaded 14 May 2020. The template search also used the PDB70 database, downloaded 13 May 2020 (https://wwwuser.gwdg.de/~compbiol/data/hhsuite/databases/hhsuite_dbs/).”

      Three of these links are dead. As such, it is difficult to definitively assess the role of any particular PDB entry with respect to AF2 training/testing, nor what impact homologous training structures given the very large number of immunoglobin structures in the training set. That said, we can summarize information for the potentially relevant PDB entries (l 2or9, which is shown in Fig. 1 and 1frg), and believe it is most conservative to assume that each such entry was within the training set.

      PDB entry 2or9 (released 2008): the anti-c-myc antibody 9E10 Fab fragment in complex with an 11-amino acid synthetic epitope: EQKLISEEDLN. This crystal structure is also noteworthy for featuring a binding mode where the peptide is pinned between two Fab. The apo structure (2orb) is also in the database but lacks the peptide and a resolved structure for CDR H3.

      PDB entry 1a93 (released 1998): a c-Myc-Max leucine zipper structure, where the c-Myc epitope (in a 34-amino acid protein) adopts an alpha helical conformation completely different from the epitope captured in entry 2or9.

      PDB entries 5xcs and 5xcu (released 2017): engineered Fv-clasps (scFv alternatives) in complex with the 9-amino acid synthetic HA epitope: YPYDVPDYA.

      PDB entry 1frg (released 1994): anti-HA peptide Fab in complex with HA epitope subset Ace-DVPDYASL-NH2.

      Since the 2or9 entry has our target epitope (10 aa) embedded within an 11aa sequence, we have revised this line in the manuscript:

      The AlphaFold2 training set was reported to exclude chains of less than 10, which would eliminate the myc and HA epitope peptides. => The AlphaFold2 training set was reported to exclude chains of less than 10, which would eliminate the HA epitope peptide from potential training PDB entries such as 5xcs or 5xcu”

      It is important to note that we obtained the best prediction performance for the scFv:peptide pair that had no pertinent PDB entries (mBG17). Specifically, doing a Protein Blast against the PDB using the mBG17 scFv revealed diverse homologs, but a maximum sequence identity of 89.8% for the heavy chain (to an unrelated antibody) and 93.8% for the light chain (to an unrelated antibody). Additionally, while it is possible that the AF2 models might have learned from the complex in pdb entry 2or9, Supplemental Figure 3 shows how often the peptide is “misplaced”, and the performance does not exceed the performance for mBG17.

      (4) The ability of AlphaFold to refine the linear epitope of antibody mBG17 is quite impressive and robust to the reproducibility issues the authors have run into. However, Figure 4 seems to suggest that the target epitope adopts an alpha-helical structure. This may be why the score is so high and the prediction is so robust. It would be very useful to see along with the pLDDT by residue plots a structure prediction by residue plot. This would help to see if the high confidence pLDDT is coming more from confidence in the docking of the peptide or confidence in the structure of the peptide.

      The reviewer is correct that target mBG17 epitope adopts an alpha helical conformation, and we concur that this likely contributes to the more reliable structure prediction performance.  When we predict the structure of the epitope alone without the mBG17 scFv, AF2 confidently predicts an alpha helix with an average pLDDT of 88.2 (ranging from 74.6 to 94.4). 

      Author response image 1.

      The AF2 prediction for the mBG17 epitope by itself.

      However, as one interesting point of comparison, a 10 a.a. poly-alanine peptide is also consistently folded into an alpha-helical coil by AF2. The A<sub>10</sub> peptide is also predicted to bind among the traditional scFv CDR loops, but the pLDDT scores are very poor (Supplemental Figure 5J). We also observed the opposite case; when a peptide has a very unstructured region in the binding domain but is nonetheless still be placed confidently, as seen in Supplemental Figure 3 C&D. Therefore, while we suspect peptides with strong alpha helical propensity are more likely to be accurately predicted, the data suggests that that alpha helix adoption is neither necessary nor sufficient to reach a confident prediction.

      (5) Related to the above comment, pLDDT is insufficient as a metric for assessing antibody antigen interactions. There is a chance (as is nicely shown in Figure S3C) that AlphaFold can be confident and wrong. Here we see two orange-yellow dots (fairly high confidence) that place the peptide COM far from the true binding region. While running the recommended larger validation above, the authors should also include a peptide RMSD or COM distance metric, to show that the peptide identity is confident, and the peptide placement is roughly correct. These predictions are not nearly as valuable if AlphaFold is getting the right answer for the wrong reasons (i.e. high pLDDT but peptide binding to a nonCDR loop region). Eventual users of the software will likely want to make point mutations or perturb the binding regions identified by the structural predictions (as the authors do in Figure 4).

      We agree with the reviewer that pLDDT is not a perfect metric, and we are following with great interest the evolving community discussion as to what metrics are most predictive of binding affinity (e.g. pAE, or pITM as a decent predictor for binding, but not affinity ranking). To our knowledge, there is not yet a consensus for the most predictive metrics for protein:protein binding nor protein:peptide binding. Intriguingly, since the antigen peptides are so small in our case, the pLDDT of the peptide residues should be mostly reporting on the confidence of the distances to neighboring protein residues.

      As to the suggestion for a RMSD or COM distance metric, we agree that these are useful -with the caveat that these require a reference structure. The goal of our method is to quickly narrow down candidate linear epitopes and thereby guide experimentalists to more efficiently determine the actual binding sequence of an antibody-antigen sequence. Presumably this would not be necessary if a reference structure were known. 

      It may also be possible to invent a method to filter unlikely binding modes that is specific to antibodies and peptide epitopes that does not require a known reference structure, but this would be an interesting problem for subsequent study.

      Reviewer 1 (Recommendations for the Authors):

      (1) "Linear epitope" should be more precisely defined in the text. It isn't clear whether the authors hope that they can use AlphaFold to predict where on a given protein antigen an antibody will bind, or which antigenic peptide the antibody will bind to. The authors discuss both problems, and there is an important distinction between the two. If the authors are only concerned with isolated antigenic peptides, rather than linear epitopes in their full length structural contexts, they should be more precise in the introduction and discussion.

      We thank the reviewer for the prompt towards higher precision. We are using the short contiguous antigen definition of “linear epitope” that depends on secondary rather than tertiary structure. The linear epitopes this paper considers are short “peptides” that form secondary structure independent of their structure in the complete folded antigen protein. We have clarified our definition of “linear epitope” in the text (lines 64-66). 

      (2) Line 101: "Not all portions of the antibody are critical". First, this is not consistent with the literature, particularly where computational biology is concerned.

      See https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.jctc.7b00080 . Second, while I largely agree with what I think the authors are trying to say (that we can largely reduce the problem to the CDR loops), this is inconsistent with what the authors later find, which is that inexplicably the VH/VL scaffold used alters results strongly.

      We have adopted verbiage that should be less provocative: “Fortunately, with respect to epitope specificity, antibody constant domains are less critical than the CDR loops and the remainder of the variable domain framework regions.”

      (3) Related to the above comment, do the authors have any idea why epitope prediction performance improved for the chimeric scFvs? Is this due to some stochasticity in AlphaFold? Or is there something systematic? Expanding the test dataset would again help answer this question.

      We agree that future study with a larger test set could help address this intriguing result, for which we currently lack a conclusive explanation. Part of our motivation for this publication was to bring to light this unexpected result. Notably, these framework differences are not only implicated as a factor in driving AF2 performance, but also changing experimental intracellular performance as reported by our group (DOI: 10.1038/s41467-019-10846-1 ). We can generate a variety of hypotheses for this phenomenon. Just as MSA sub-sampling has been a popular approach to drive AF2 to sample alternative conformations, sequence recombination may be a generically effective way to generate usefully different binding predictions. However, it is difficult to discriminate between recombination inducing subtle structural tweaks that increase protein intracellular fitness and binding, from recombination causing changes to the MSA that affect the likelihood of sampling a good epitope binding conformation. It is also possible that the chimeras are more deftly predicted by AF2 due to differences in sequence representation during the training of the AF2 models (e.g. more exposure to models containing 15F11 or 2E2 structures). We attempted to deconvolute MSA differences by using single-sequence mode (Supplementary Figure 13) but this ablated performance.

      (4) Figure 2: The reported consensus pLDDT scores are actually quite low here, suggesting low confidence in the result. This is in strong contrast to the reported consensus scores for mBG17. Again, a larger test dataset would help set a quantitative cutoff for where to draw the line for "trustworthy" AlphaFold predictions in antibody-peptide binding applications.

      We agree that a larger dataset will be useful to begin to establish metrics and thresholds and will contribute to the aforementioned community discussion about reliable predictors of binding. Our current focus is not structure prediction per se. In the current work we are more focused on relative binding likelihood and increasing the efficiency of experimental epitope verification by flagging the most likely linear epitopes. Thus, while the pLDDT scores are low for Myc in Figure 2, it is remarkable (and worth reporting) that there is still useful signal in the relative variation in pLDDT. The utility of the signal variation is evident in the ability to short-list correct lead peptides via the two methods we demonstrate (consensus and per-residue max).

      (5) Figure 4: if the authors are going to draw conclusions from the actual structure predictions of AlphaFold (not just the pLDDT scores), the side-chain accuracy placement should be assessed in the test dataset (RMSD or COM distance).

      We agree with the reviewer that side-chain placement accuracy is important when evaluating the accuracy of AF2 structure predictions. However, here our focus was relative binding likelihood rather than structure prediction. The one case where we attempted to draw conclusions from the structure prediction was in the context of mBG17, where there is not yet an experimental reference structure. Absolutely, if we were to obtain a crystal structure for that complex, we would assess side-chain placement accuracy. 

      (6) Lines 493-508: I am not sure that this assessment for why AlphaFold has difficulty with antibody-antigen interactions is correct. If the authors' interpretation is correct (larger complicated structures are more challenging to move) then AlphaFold-Multimer (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.10.04.463034v2.full) wouldn't perform as well as it does. Instead, the issue is likely due to the incredibly high diversity in antibody CDR loops, which reduces the ability of the AlphaFold MSA step (which the authors show is quite critical to predictions: Figure S13) to inform structure prediction. This, coupled with the importance of side chain placement in antibody and TCR interactions, which is notoriously difficult (https://elifesciences.org/articles/90681), are likely the largest source of uncertainty in antibody-antigen interaction prediction.

      We agree with the reviewer that CDR loop diversity (and associated side chain placement challenges) are a major barrier to successfully predict antibody-antigen complexes. Presumably this is true for both peptide antigens and protein antigens. Indeed, the authors of AlphaFold-multimer admit that the updated model struggles with antibody-antigen complexes, saying “As a limitation, we observe anecdotally that AlphaFold-Multimer is generally not able to predict binding of antibodies and this remains an area for future work.” The point about how loop diversity could reduce MSA quality is well taken. We have included the following thanks to the guidance of the reviewer when discussing MSA sensitivity is discussed later on in lines 570-572.: 

      “These challenges are presumably compounded by the incredible diversity of the CDR loops in antibodies which could decrease the useful signal from the MSA as well as drive inconsistent MSA-dependent performance”.

      With respect to lines 493-508, we have also rephrased a key sentence to try to better explain that we are comparing the often-good recognition performance for short epitopes to the never-good performance when those epitopes are embedded within larger sequences. Instead of saying, “In contrast, a larger and complicated structure may be more challenging to move during the AlphaFold2 structure prediction or recycle steps.” we now say in lines 520-522 , “In contrast, embedding the epitope within a larger and more complicated structure appears to degrade the ability of AlphaFold2 to sample a comparable bound structure within the allotted recycle steps.”

      (7) Related to major comment 1: Are AlphaFold predictions deterministic? That is, if you run the same peptide through the PAbFold pipeline 20 times, will you get the same pLDDT score 20 times? The lack of reproducibility may be in part due to stochasticity in AlphaFold, which the authors could actually leverage to provide more consistent results.

      This is a good question that we addressed while dissecting the variable performance. When the random seed is fixed, AF2 returns the same prediction every time. After running this 10 times with a fixed seed, the mBG17 epitope was predicted with an average pLDDT of 88.94, with a standard deviation of 1.4 x 10<sup>-14</sup>. In contrast, when no seed is specified, AF2 did not return an *identical* result. However, the results were still remarkably consistent. Running the mBG17 epitope prediction 10 times with a different seed gave an average pLDDT of 89.24, with a standard deviation of 0.49. 

      (8) Related to major comment 2: The authors could use, for example, this previous survey of 1833 antibody-antigen interactions (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2001037023004725) the authors could likely pull out multiple linear epitopes to test AlphaFold's performance on antibody peptide interactions. A large number of tests are necessary for validation.

      We thank the reviewer for this report of antibody-antigen interactions and will use it as a source of complexes in a future expanded study. Given the quantity and complexity of the data that we are already providing, as well as logistical challenges for compute and personnel the reviewer is asking for, we must defer this expansion to future work.

      (9) Related to major comment 3: Apologies if this is too informal for a review, but this Issue on the AlphaFold GitHub may be useful: https://github.com/googledeepmind/alphafold/issues/416 .

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion – per our response above we have indeed run predictions with no templates. Since we are using local AlphaFold2 calculations with localcolabfold, the use or non-use of templates is fairly simple: including a “—templates” flag or not.

      (10) Related to major comment 4: I am not sure if AlphaFold outputs by-residue secondary structure prediction by default, but I know that Phyre2 does http://www.sbg.bio.ic.ac.uk/~phyre2/html/page.cgi?id=index .

      To our knowledge, AF2 does not predict secondary structure independent of the predicted tertiary structure. When we need to analyze the secondary structure we typically use the program DSSP from the tertiary structure. 

      (11) The documentation for this software is incomplete. The GitHub ReadMe should include complete guidelines for users with details of expected outputs, along with a thorough step-by-step walkthrough for use.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out, but we feel that the level of detail we provide in the GitHub is sufficient for users to utilize the method described.

      Stylistic comments:

      (1) I do not think that the heatmaps (as in 1C, top) add much information for the reader. They are largely uniform across the y-axis (to my eyes), and the information is better conveyed by the bar and line graphs (as in 1C, middle and bottom panels).

      We thank the reviewer for this feedback but elect to leave it in on the premise of more data presented is (usually) better. Including the y-axis reveals common patterns such as the lower confidence of the peptide termini, as well as the lack of some patterns that might have occurred. For example, if a subset of five contiguous residues was necessary and sufficient for local high confidence this could be visually apparent as a “staircase” in the heat map.

      (2) A discussion of some of the shortcomings of other prediction-based software (lines 7177) might be useful. Why are these tools less well-equipped than AlphaFold for this problem? And if they have tried to predict antibody-antigen interactions, why have they failed?

      We agree with the reviewer that a broader review of multiple methods would be interesting and useful. One challenge is that the suite of available methods is evolving rapidly, though only a subset work for multimeric systems. Some detail on deficiencies of other approaches was provided in lines 71-77 originally, although we did not go into exhaustive detail since we wanted to focus on AF2. We view using AF2 in this manner is novel and that providing additional options predict antibody epitopes will be of interest to the scientific community. We also chose AF2 because we have ample experience with it and is a software that many in the scientific community are already using and comfortable with. Additionally, AF2 provided us with a quantification parameter (pLDDT) to assess the peptides’ binding abilities. We think a future study that compares the ability of multiple emerging tools for scFv:peptide prediction will be quite interesting. 

      (3) Similar to the above comment, more discussion focused on why AlphaFold2 fails for antibodies (lines 126-128) might be useful for readers.  

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. The following line has been added shortly after lines 135-137:

      “Another reason for selecting AF2 is to attempt to quantify its abilities the compare simple linear epitopes, since the team behind AF-multimer reported that conformational antibody complexes were difficult to predict accurately (14).”

      Per earlier responses, we also added text that flags one particular possible reason for the general difficulty of predicting antibody-antigen complexes (the diversity of the CDR loops and associated MSA challenges).

      (4) The first two paragraphs of the results section (lines 226-254) could likely be moved to the Methods. Additionally, details of how the scores are calculated, not just how the commands are run in python, would be useful.

      Per the reviewer suggestion, we moved this section to the end of the Methods section. Also, to aid in the reader’s digestion of the analysis, the following text has been added to the Results section (lines 256-264):

      “Both the ‘Simple Max’ and ‘Consensus’ methods were calculated first by parsing every pLDDT score received by every residue in the antigen sequence sliding window output structures. From the resulting data structure, the Simple Max method simply finds the maximum pLDDT value ever seen for a single residue (across all sliding windows and AF2 models). For the Consensus method, per-residue pLDDT was first averaged across the 5 AF2 models. These averages are reported in the heatmap view, and further averaged per sliding window for the bar chart below.

      In principle, the strategy behind the Consensus method is to take into account agreement across the 5 AF2 models and provide insight into the confidence of entire epitopes (whole sliding windows of n=10 default) instead of disconnected, per-residue pLDDT maxima.” 

      (5) Figure 1 would be more useful if you could differentiate specifically how the Consensus and Simple Max scoring is different. Providing examples for how and why the top 5 peptide hits can change (quite significantly) using both methods would greatly help readers understand what is going on.

      Per the reviewer suggestion, we have added text to discuss the variable hit selection that results from the two scoring metrics. The new text (lines 264-271) adds onto the added text block immediately above:

      “Having two scoring metrics is useful because the selection of predicted hits can differ. As shown in Figure 2, part of the Myc epitope makes it into the top 5 peptides when selection is based on summing per-residue maximum pLDDT (despite there being no requirement that these values originate in the same physical prediction). In contrast, a Consensus method score more directly reports on a specific sliding window, and the strength of the highest confidence peptides is more directly revealed with superior signal to noise as shown in Figure 3. Variability in the ranking of top hits between the two methods arises from the fundamental difference in strategy (peptide-centric or residue-centric scoring) as well as close competition between the raw AF2 confidence in the known peptide and competing decoy sequences.”

      (6) Hopefully the reproducibility issue is alleviated, but if not the discussion of it (lines 523554) should be moved to the supplement or an appendix.

      The ability of the original AF2 model to predict protein-protein complexes was an emergent behavior, and then an explicit training goal for AF2.multimer. In this vein, the ability to predict scFv:peptide complexes is also an emergent capability of these models. It is our hope that by highlighting this capacity, as well as the high level of sensitivity, that this capability will be enhanced and not degraded in future models/algorithms (both general and specialized). In this regard, with an eye towards progress, we think it is actually important to put this issue in the scientific foreground rather than the background. When it comes to improving machine learning methods negative results are also exceedingly important.

      Reviewer 2 (Recommendations for the Author):

      - Line 113, page 3 - the structures of the novel scFv chimeras can be rapidly and confidently be predicted by AlphaFold2 to the structures of the novel scFv chimeras can be rapidly and confidently predicted by AlphaFold2.

      The superfluous “be” was removed from the text.

      - Line 276 and 278 page 9 - peptide sequences QKLSEEDLL and EQKLSEEDL in the text are different from the sequences reported in Figures 1 and 2 (QKLISEEDLL and EQKLISEEDL). Please check throughout the manuscript and also in the Figure caption (as in Figure 2).

      These changes were made throughout the text. 

      - I would include how you calculate the pLDDT score for both Simple Max approach and Consensus analysis.

      Good suggestion, this should be covered via the additions noted above.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors bring together implanted radiofrequency coils, high-field MRI imaging, awake animal imaging, and sensory stimulation methods in a technological demonstration. The results are very detailed descriptions of the sensory systems under investigation.

      Strengths:

      - The maps are qualitatively excellent for rodent whole-brain imaging. - The design of the holder and the coil is pretty clever.

      Weaknesses:

      - Some unexpected regions appear on the whole brain maps, and the discussion of these regions is succinct.

      - The authors do not make the work and e ort to train the animals and average the data from several hundred trials apparent enough. This is important for any reader who would like to consider implementing this technology.

      - The data is not available. This does not let the readers make their own assessment of the results.

      Thank you for the comments on this manuscript. We have provided more detailed discussion of the unexpected regions(page 18 – line 491-494) and training procedures(page7-9 – line 172-236). We also uploaded the datasets to OpenNeuro 

      Whisker (https://doi.org/10.18112/openneuro.ds005496.v1.0.1),  Visual (https://doi.org/10.18112/openneuro.ds005497.v1.0.0) and Zenodo:

      SNR Line Profile Data & Data Processing Scripts:  (https://zenodo.org/doi/10.5281/zenodo.13821455). 

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript by Hike et al. entitled 'High-resolution awake mouse fMRI at 14 Tesla' describes the implementation of awake mouse BOLD-fMRI at high field. This work is timely as the field of mouse fMRI is working toward collecting high-quality data from awake animals. Imaging awake subjects o ers opportunities to study brain function that are otherwise not possible under the more common anesthetized conditions. Not to mention the confounding e  ects that anesthesia has on neurovascular coupling. What has made progress in this area slow (relative to other imaging approaches like optical imaging) is the environment within the MRI scanner (high acoustic noise) - as well as the intolerance of head and body motion. This work adds to a relatively small, but quickly growing literature on awake mouse fMRI. The findings in the study include testing of an implanted head-coil (for MRI data reception). Two designs are described and the SNR of these units at 9.4T and 14T are reported. Further, responses to visual as well as whisker stimulation recorded in acclimated awake mice are shown. The most interesting finding, and most novel, is the observation that mice seem to learn to anticipate the presentation of the stimulus - as demonstrated by activations evident ~6 seconds prior to the presentation of the stimulus when stimuli are delivered at regular intervals (but not when stimuli are presented at random intervals). These kinds of studies are very challenging to do. The surgical preparation and length of time invested into training animals are grueling. I also see this work as a step in the right direction and evidence of the foundations for lots of interesting future work. However, I also found a few shortcomings listed below.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The surface coil, although o ering a great SNR boost at the surface, ultimately comes at a cost of lower SNR in deeper more removed brain regions in comparison to commercially available Bruker coils (at room temperature). This should be quantified. A rough comparison in SNR is drawn between the implanted coils and the Bruker Cryoprobe - this should be a quantitative comparison (if possible) - including any di erences in SNR in deeper brain structures. There are drawbacks to the Cryoprobe, which can be discussed, but a more thorough comparison between the implanted coils, and other existing options should be provided (the Cryoprobe has been used previously in awake mouse experiments(Sensory evoked fMRI paradigms in awake mice - Chen, Physiological e ects of a habituation procedure for functional MRI in awake mice using a cryogenic radiofrequency probe – Yoshida, PREVIOUS REFERENCE). Further, the details of how to build the implanted coils should be provided (shared) - this should include a parts list as well as detailed instructions on how to build the units. Also, how expensive are they? And can they be reused?

      Thank you for the comment. We did not use a Bruker Cryoprobe for this work but rather a Bruker 4array surface coil. We are unable to compare to a cryoprobe since we do not have access to one for our system. A comparison to previously published data using different scanners could be possible but would require the sequence contain identical parameters to avoid introducing an uncontrollable variable, we are planning to recruit different laboratories to test the implanted RF coils with their existing cryoprobes in the future study. 

      We have included an updated figure comparing SNR at different depths across the Bruker 4-array coil and the implanted RF coils. As shown in Supplementary Figure 7B, there is significant SNR enhancement up to 4 mm cortical depth for both single loop and Figure 8 implanted RF coils in comparison to the Bruker 4-array coil.

      Author response image 1.

      Comparison between implanted and commercial coils. A shows representative coils in the single loop (left) and figure 8 styles (right). Supplementary Table 1 provides a parts list and cost for making these coils and Supplementary Figure 1 provides a circuit diagram to assemble. B presents the SNR line profile values as a function of distance from Pia Matter for each coil tested at 9.4T: commercial phased array surface coil (4 Array), implanted single loop, and implanted figure 8. SNR values were calculated by dividing the signal by the standard deviation of the noise. C-E shows a representative FLASH image with line profile of SNR measurements from each of the coils used to create the graph seen in B. Clear visual improvement in SNR can be seen in figures C-E. C – Commercial phased array. D – Single loop at 9.4T. E – Figure 8 at 9.4T. (N4 array = 6, Nsingle loop = 5, Nfigure 8 = 5)

      Additionally, we have added a supplementary figure (supp fig 1) of a circuit diagram, in an effort to disseminate the prototype design of the coils to other laboratories. We have included a detailed parts list with the cost for construction of the coils configured for our scanner(supp table 1). These specifics though would need to be adjusted to the precise field strength/bore size/animal the coil was being built for. As for reusability, the copper wire is cemented to the animal skull and this implantable coil should be considered as consumables for the awake mouse experiments, though the PCB parts can be retrieved.  

      (2) In the introduction, the authors state that "Awake mouse fMRI has been well investigated". I disagree with this statement and others in the manuscript that gives the reader the impression that awake experiments are not a challenging and unresolved approach to fMRI experiments in mice (or rodents). Although there are multiple labs (maybe 15 worldwide) that have conducted awake mouse experiments (with varying degrees of success/thoroughness), we are far from a standardized approach. This is a strength of the current work and should be highlighted as such. I encourage the authors to read the recent systematic review that was published on this topic in Cerebral Cortex by Mandino et al. There are several elements in there that should influence the tone of this piece including awake mouse implementations with the Bruker Cryoprobe, prevalence of surgical preparations, and evaluations of stress.

      Thank you for the comment. We agree with the reviewer that the current stage of awake mouse fMRI studies remains to be improved.  And, we have revised the Introduction to highlight the state-of-theart of awake mouse fMRI (Page 4 – line 81-88). 

      (3) The authors also comment on implanted coils reducing animal stress - I don't know where this comment is coming from, as this has not been reported in the literature (to my knowledge) and the authors don't appear to have evaluated stress in their mice. 

      Since question 3 and 4 are highly related to the acclimation procedures, we will answer the two questions together.   

      (4) Following on the above point, measures of motion, stress, and more details on the acclimation procedure that was implemented in this study should be included.

      We thank the reviewer to raise the animal training issues.  

      During the animal training, we have measured both pupil dynamic and eye motion features from training sessions, of which the detailed procedure is described in Methods (page 7-9 – line 172236). 

      The training procedure is carried out over a total of 5 weeks with four phases of training: i. Holding animal in hands, ii. Head-fixation and pupillometry, iii. Head-fixation and pupillometry with mockMRI acoustic exposure, iv. Head-fixation and pupillometry with Echo-Planar-Imaging (EPI) in the MR scanner.

      Author response table 1.

      As shown in Supp Fig 2B, the spectral power of pupil dynamics (<0.02Hz) and eye movements gradually increased as a function of the training time for head-fixed mice exposed to the mock MRI acoustic environment during phase 3.  In phase 4, when head-fixed mice were put into the scanner for the first time, both eye movements and pupil dynamics were initially reduced during scanning but recovered to an acclimated state on Day 2, similar to the level on Day 8 of phase 3.  These behavioral outputs would provide an alternative way to monitor the stress levels of the mice. 

      Author response image 2.

      The eye movements (A) and power spectra of pupil dynamics (<0.02Hz) (B) change during different training phases.

      It should be noted that stress may be related to increased frequency of eye blinking or twitching movements in human subjects(1–3). Whereas, the eyeblink of head-fixed mice has been used for behavioral conditioning to investigate motor learning in normal behaving mice(4–6). Importantly, head-fixed mouse studies have shown that eye movements are significantly reduced compared to the free-moving mice(7). The increased eye movement during acclimation process would indicate an alleviated stress level of the head-fixed mice in our cases. Meanwhile, stress-related pupillary dilation could dominate the pupil dynamics at the early phase of training(8). We have observed a gradually increased pupil dynamic power spectrum at the ultra-slow frequency during phase 3, presenting the alleviated stress-related pupil dilation but recovered pupil dynamics to other factors, including arousal, locomotion, startles, etc. in normal behaving mice.  Despite the extensive training procedure of the present work in comparison to the existing awake mouse fMRI studies (training strategies for awake mice fMRI have been reviewed by Mandino et al. to show the overall training duration of existing studies(9)), the stress remains a confounding factor for the brain functional mapping in head-fixed mice. In particular, a recent study(10) shows that the corticosterone concentration in the blood samples of head-fixed mice is significantly reduced on Day 25 following the training but remains higher than in the control mice. In the discussion section, we have discussed the potential issues of stress-related confounding factors for awake mouse fMRI studies (Page 16 – lines 436-458). 

      (1) A. Marcos-Ramiro, D. Pizarro-Perez, M. Marron-Romera, D. Gatica-Perez, Automatic blinking detection towards stress discovery. ICMI 2014 - Proceedings of the 2014 International Conference on Multimodal Interaction 307–310 (2014). https://doi.org/10.1145/2663204.2663239/SUPPL_FILE/ICMI1520.MP4.

      (2) M. Haak, S. Bos, S. Panic, L. Rothkrantz, DETECTING STRESS USING EYE BLINKS AND BRAIN ACTIVITY FROM EEG SIGNALS. Lance 21, 76 (2009).

      (3) E. Del Carretto Di Ponti E Sessam, Exploring the impact of Stress and Cognitive Workload on Eye Movements: A Preliminary Study. (2023).

      (4) S. A. Heiney, M. P. Wohl, S. N. Chettih, L. I. Ru olo, J. F. Medina, Cerebellar-dependent expression of motor learning during eyeblink conditioning in head-fixed mice. J Neurosci 34, 14845–14853 (2014).

      (5) S. N. Chettih, S. D. Mcdougle, L. I. Ruffolo, J. F. Medina, Adaptive timing of motor output in the mouse: The role of movement oscillations in eyelid conditioning. Front Integr Neurosci 5, 12996 (2011).

      (6) J. J. Siegel, et al., Trace Eyeblink Conditioning in Mice Is Dependent upon the Dorsal Medial Prefrontal Cortex, Cerebellum, and Amygdala: Behavioral Characterization and Functional Circuitry. eNeuro 2, 51–65 (2015).

      (7) A. F. Meyer, J. O’Keefe, J. Poort, Two Distinct Types of Eye-Head Coupling in Freely Moving Mice. Current Biology 30, 2116-2130.e6 (2020).

      (8) H. Zeng, Y. Jiang, S. Beer-Hammer, X. Yu, Awake Mouse fMRI and Pupillary Recordings in the UltraHigh Magnetic Field. Front Neurosci 16, 886709 (2022).

      (9) F. Mandino, S. Vujic, J. Grandjean, E. M. R. Lake, Where do we stand on fMRI in awake mice? Cereb Cortex 34 (2024).

      (10) K. Juczewski, J. A. Koussa, A. J. Kesner, J. O. Lee, D. M. Lovinger, Stress and behavioral correlates in the head-fixed method: stress measurements, habituation dynamics, locomotion, and motor-skill learning in mice. Scientific Reports 2020 10:1 10, 1–19 (2020).

      (5) It wasn't clear to me at what times the loop versus "Figure 8" coil was being used, nor how many mice (or how much data) were included in each experiment/plot. There is also no mention of biological sex.

      Thank you for the comment. We have clarified sex and number. The figure 8 coil was only used as part of development to show the improvement of the coil design for cortical measurements. The detailed information is described in Method (Page 6 – line 127-129 & Page 10 – line 269-270). Additionally animal numbers have been included in the figure captions.

      (6) Building on the points above, the manuscript overall lacks experimental detail (especially since the format has the results prior to the methods).

      Thank you for the comment. We have modified the manuscript to increase the experimental detail and moved the methods section before the results.

      (7) An observation is made in the manuscript that there is an appreciable amount of negative BOLD signal. The authors speculate that this may come from astrocyte-mediated BOLD during brain state changes (and cite anesthetized rat and non-human primate experiments). This is very strange to me. First, the negative BOLD signal is not plotted (please do this), further, there are studies in awake mice that measure astrocyte activation eliciting positive BOLD responses (see Takata et al. in Glia, 2017).

      We thank the reviewer to raise the negative BOLD fMRI observation issue.  We added a subplot of the negative BOLD signal changes in the revised Figure 4. This negative BOLD signals across cortical areas could be coupled with brain state changes upon air-pu -induced startle responses. Our future studies are focusing on elucidating the brain-wide activity changes of awake mice with fMRI.  We also provide a detailed discussion of the potential mechanism underlying the negative BOLD fMRI signals. First, as reported in the paper (suggested  by the reviewer),  astrocytic Ca2+ transients coincide with positive BOLD responses in the activated cortical areas, which is aligning with the neurovascular coupling (NVC) mechanism. However, there is emerging evidence to show that astrocytic Ca2+ transients are coupled with both positive and negative BOLD responses in anesthetized rats(11) and awake mice(12). An intriguing observation is that cortex-wide negative BOLD signals coupled with the spontaneous astrocytic Ca2+ transients could co-exist with the positive BOLD signal detected at the activated cortex.  Studies have shown that astrocytes are involved in regulating brain state changes(13), in particular, during locomotion(14) and startle responses(15). These brain state-dependent global negative BOLD responses are also related to the arousal changes of both non-human primates(16) and human subjects(17).  The established awake mouse fMRI platform with ultra-high spatial resolution will enable the brain-wide activity mapping of the functional nuclei contributing to the brain state changes of head-fixed awake mice in future studies. (Page 17-18 – Line 478-490)

      (11) M. Wang, Y. He, T. J. Sejnowski, X. Yu, Brain-state dependent astrocytic Ca2+ signals are coupled to both positive and negative BOLD-fMRI signals. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 115, E1647–E1656 (2018).

      (12) C. Tong, Y. Zou, Y. Xia, W. Li, Z. Liang, Astrocytic calcium signal bidirectionally regulated BOLD-fMRI signals in awake mice in Proc. Intl. Soc. Mag. Reson. Med. 32, (2024).

      (13) K. E. Poskanzer, R. Yuste, Astrocytes regulate cortical state switching in vivo. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 113, E2675–E2684 (2016).

      (14) M. Paukert, et al., Norepinephrine controls astroglial responsiveness to local circuit activity. Neuron 82, 1263–1270 (2014).

      (15) R. Srinivasan, et al., Ca2+ signaling in astrocytes from IP3R2−/− mice in brain slices and during startle responses in vivo. Nat Neurosci 18, 708 (2015).

      (16) C. Chang, et al., Tracking brain arousal fluctuations with fMRI. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 113, 4518– 4523 (2016).

      (17) B. Setzer, et al., A temporal sequence of thalamic activity unfolds at transitions in behavioral arousal state. Nat Commun 13 (2022).

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I really enjoyed this work. The maps shown are among the best-quality maps out there. Here are suggestions to the authors.

      (1) Both the ACA and VRA are rather unexpected. The authors explain these briefly as being part of the associative cortical areas. Both the ACA and VRA are not canonical associative areas (or at least not to us). This warrants a stronger discussion.

      To verify both ACA and VRA as associate areas, we provide the  connectivity map projections from the Allen Brain Atlas (seen below). These projections are derived from a Cre-dependent AAV tracing of axonal projections. We have included an explanation of this in the introduction. 

      Author response image 3.

      Representative images are shown indicating connections between the barrel cortex and retrosplenial area from an injection in the barrel cortex (Left panel) as well as the visual cortex and cingulate connection from an injection in the visual cortex (Right panel). Images are of connectivity map projections from the Allen Brain Atlas derived from a Cre-dependent AAV tracing of axonal projections

      (2) This is a lot of work. But looking at the figures, this is not obvious. We read in the caption that several hundred trials were used. It would be good to also specify how many mice. It would be clearer to represent this info in the figure as well to support the fact that this is not a trivial acquisition.

      Thank the reviewer to raise the e ort issue. We have edited the figure to include this information and included the numbers in the text as well

      (3) The training protocol is seemingly extensive, but this is only visible by following another reference. Including a description in this work would help the reader make sense of the effort that went into this work.

      We thank the reviewer to raise the training protocol issue. We have more thoroughly discussed the training method used for this study (page 7-9 – line 172-236)

      (4) I really would love to see that dataset made freely available - this should be the norm.

      The datasets have been uploaded to OpenNeuro 

      Whisker (https://doi.org/10.18112/openneuro.ds005496.v1.0.1),  Visual (https://doi.org/10.18112/openneuro.ds005497.v1.0.0) and Zenodo:

      SNR Line Profile Data & Data Processing Scripts: 

      (https://zenodo.org/doi/10.5281/zenodo.13821455). 

      (page 21 – line 573-579)

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) I'm a little confused about the stimulation paradigm and the effect of it causing an effective 2second TR (which is on the long side) - please elaborate (a figure might be helpful). The paradigm for visual stimulation also seems elaborate, can you please explain the logic and how it was developed?

      Thank you for raising the detailed stimulation paradigm issues. The stimulation paradigm is independent and does not interfere with the setup of the effective 2-second TR. The 2-second TR is based on the usage of 2-segment EPI, each with a TR of 1-second. The application of 2-segment paradigm enables the echo spacing with 0.52 ms with effective image bandwidth with 3858Hz, assuring less image distortion.  The stimulation paradigm was defined by an “8s on, 32s o ” epoch such to elicit a strong BOLD response and could be used for any reasonable TR duration. 

      We have included a figure outlining the stimulation paradigm (Supp Fig. 3)

      (2) I had difficulties viewing the movies (on my MAC).

      Thank you for this note. We have re-upload the videos in .mov format

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This is a valuable study that describes the effects of T. pallidum on neural development by applying single-cell RNA sequencing to an iPSC-derived brain organoid model. The evidence supporting the claims of the authors is solid, although further evidence to understand the differences in infection rates would strengthen the conclusions of the study. In particular, the conclusions would be strengthened by validating infection efficiency as this can impact the interpretation of single-cell sequencing results, and how these metrics affect organoid size as well as comparison with additional infectious agents. Furthermore, additional validations of downstream effectors are not adequate and could be improved. 

      Thank you very much for your valuable comments. Since we used the organoid model for the first time to investigate the effects of T. pallidum on brain development, the study design is not perfect. As you have accurately mentioned, the results of the paper do not have more in-depth details, especially to verify the infection rate of T. pallidum. Your valuable comments will be very useful for us for carrying out further research. In addition, the downstream effector validation is inadequate, so we performed an analysis of single-cell sequencing data to strengthen our view in the revised manuscript (See Figure 5F for a description in current manuscript).

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This is an interesting study by Xu et al showing the effects of infection with the Treponema pallidum virus (which causes syphilis disease) on neuronal development using iPSC-derived human brain organoids as a model and single-cell RNA sequencing. This work provides an important insight into the impact of the virus on human development, bridging the gap between the phenomena observed in studies using animal models as well as non-invasive human studies showing developmental abnormalities in fetuses infected with the virus in utero through maternal vertical transmission.

      Using single-cell RNAseq in combination with qPCR and immunofluorescence techniques, the authors show that T. pallidum infected organoids are smaller in size, in particular during later growth stages, contain a larger number of undifferentiated neuronal lineage cells, and exhibit decreased numbers of specific neuronal subcluster, which the authors have identified as undifferentiated hindbrain neurons.

      The study is an important first step in understanding how T. pallidum affects human neuronal development and provides important insight into the potential mechanisms that underlie the neurodevelopmental abnormalities observed in infected human fetuses. Several important weaknesses have also been noted, which need to be addressed to strengthen the study's conclusions.

      Strengths:

      (1) The study is well written, and the data quality is good for the most part.

      (2) The study provides an important first step in utilizing human brain organoids to study the impact of T. pallidum infection on neuronal development.

      (3) The study's conclusions may provide important insight to other researchers focused on studying how viral infections impact neuronal development. 

      Thank you very much for your positive feedback. Below, you will find our detailed responses to your concerns, addressed point-by-point. I once again sincerely appreciate your time and effort in reviewing our manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) It is unclear how T. pallidum infection was validated in the organoids. If not all cells are infected, this could have important implications for the study's conclusions, in particular the single-cell RNAseq experiments. Were only cells showing the presence of the virus selected for sequencing? A detailed description of how infection was validated and the process of selection of cells for RNAseq would strongly support the study's conclusions. 

      Thank you for your valuable comment. We completely agree with your point. Exploring the infection rate of T. pallidum to brain organoids is a key factor that must be considered. We selected pluripotent stem cell-derived brain organoids to simulate the process of foetal brain neurodevelopment and cultured them mixed with T. pallidum to mimic T. pallidum invading brain tissue. Since brain organoids are three-dimensional structures formed by nerve cell aggregation, T. pallidum invades organoids from the periphery to the center of the organoids gradually. T. pallidum acts on organoids long enough to increase the infection rates; however, the pathogen is selective in invading human cells. If we only select cells present in T. pallidum for sequencing, the authenticity of simulating "real world" infections is somewhat weakened. To better carry out this study, selecting cells from intact organoids for sequencing, without eliminating cells without T. pallidum, can better simulate the effect of T. pallidum infection on the nervous system. Of course, we should also set up a blank control group.

      (2) The authors show that T. pallidum infection results in impaired development of hindbrain neurons. How does this finding compare to what has already been shown in animal studies? Is a similar deficit in this brain region observed with this specific virus? It would be useful to strengthen the study's conclusions if the authors added a discussion about the observed deficits in hindbrain neuronal development, and prior literature on similar studies conducted in animal models or human patients. Does T. pallidum preferentially target these neurons, or is this a limitation of the current organoid model system? 

      Thank you for your valuable comments. The finding that T. pallidum infection results in impaired development of hindbrain neurons has not been verified in animal experiments. Of course, it is better to further validate the findings in organoid studies through animal experiments. Unfortunately, due to the technical challenges, mature animal models have not been developed for the study of congenital syphilis. Although our team has been working on the development of animal models of congenital neurosyphilis, the current progress is still not satisfactory. After struggling hard in this field for many years, we decided to attempt to utilize human brain organoids instead of animal models to study the impact of T. pallidum infection on neuronal development.

      We also checked prior literature on similar studies that have referred to the content in human patients. Dan Doherty et al. reported that patients with pontocerebellar hypoplasia develop microcephaly at birth or over time after birth (PMID: 23518331). Based on your constructive suggestions, we have added some content related to hindbrain to the “Discussion” section.

      Our study found that T. pallidum could inhibit the differentiation of subNPC1B in brain organoids, thereby reducing the differentiation from subNPC1B to hindbrain neurons, and ultimately affecting the development and maturation of hindbrain neurons during pregnancy. Based on our results, T. pallidum does not preferentially target hindbrain neurons. Of course, there are limitations to the current organoid model system, see the "Limitations" section.

      PMID: 23518331- Dan Doherty et al, Midbrain and hindbrain malformations: advances in clinical diagnosis, imaging, and genetics.

      Revision in the “Discussion” section, line 343-352:

      “The vertebrate hindbrain contains a complex network of dedicated neural circuits that play an essential role in controlling many physiological processes and behaviors, including those related to the cerebellum, pons, and medulla oblongata (Shoja et al., 2018). Patients with pontocerebellar hypoplasia represent the less severe end of the spectrum with early hyperreflexia, developmental delay, and feeding problems, eventually developing spasticity and involuntary movements in childhood, while some patients represent the severe end of the spectrum characterised by polyhydramnios, severe hyperreflexia, contracture, and early death from central respiratory failure. Patients with pontocerebellar hypoplasia develop microcephaly at birth or over time after birth (Doherty et al., 2013).”

      (3) The authors show that T. pallidum-infected organoids are smaller in size by measuring organoid diameter during later stages of organoid growth, with no change during early stages. Does that represent insufficient infection at the early stages? Is this due to increased cell death or lack of cell division in the infected organoids? Experiments using IHC to quantify levels of cleaved caspase and/or protein markers for cell proliferation would be able to address these questions. 

      Thank you for your valuable suggestion. The concentration of T. pallidum in patients with syphilis was generally very low (PMID: 21752804, 35315702, 33099614). In this study, a low concentration of T. pallidum was applied to brain organoids to simulate early foetal transmission of syphilis. Nerve cells mainly establish intercellular connections to form brain organoids in the way of adhesion, which can easily cause organoids to divide and die if treated with a high concentration of T. pallidum. Furthermore, based on your suggestions, we performed additional immunostaining analyses to verify the apoptosis of brain organoids infected by T. pallidum. Cleaved caspase 3 (clCASP3) staining showed that the number of apoptotic cells increased following T. pallidum infection; however, the proportion of apoptotic cells in both groups of brain organoids was very low (Figure supplement 2) (N=12 organoids, each group from three independent bioreactors), which would be not enough to affect the results of the experiment, thereby suggesting that neural differentiation and development of brain organoids were mainly inhibited following T. pallidum infection (rather than promoting organoid apoptosis).

      PMID: 21752804-- Craig Tipple et al, Getting the measure of syphilis: qPCR to better understand early infection.

      PMID: 35315702-- Cuini Wang et al, Quantified Detection of Treponema pallidum DNA by PCR Assays in Urine and Plasma of Syphilis Patients.

      PMID: 33099614—Cuini Wang et al, A New Specimen for Syphilis Diagnosis: Evidence by High Loads of Treponema pallidum DNA in Saliva.

      Revision in the “Results” section, line 105-108:

      “… cleaved caspase 3 (clCASP3) staining showed that the number of apoptotic cells increased significantly following T. pallidum infection, but the proportion of apoptotic cells in both groups of brain organoids was very low (Figure supplement 2) (N=12 organoids, each group from three independent bioreactors) …”

      Revision in the “Materials and methods” section, line 446-447:

      “…anti-cleaved caspase 3 (rabbit, 1:100, Cell Signaling Technology, 9661S),”

      Revision in the “Supplementary File” section, line 78-81:

      Author response image 1.

      The number of clCASP3+ cells in the microscopic field of brain organoids. A nonparametric t-test was used to evaluate the statistical differences between the two groups. (**: P < 0.01).

      (4) In Figure 1D authors show differences in rosette-like structure in the infected organoids. The representative images do not appear to be different in any of the discussed components (e.g., the sox2 signal looks fairly similar between the two conditions). No quantification of these structures was presented. Authors should provide quantification or a more representative image to support their statement. 

      Thank you for your valuable suggestion. I have quantified the neural rosette structure and compared the number of intact rosette-like structures between the two groups (See Figure 1D for a description in current manuscript).

      (5) The IHC images shown in Figures 3E, G, and Figure 4E look very similar between the two conditions despite the discussed decrease in the text. A more suitable representative image should be presented, or the analysis should be amended to reflect the observed results. 

      Thank you for your valuable suggestion. I have replaced more representative images in Figure 3E, G, and Figure 4E in the manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study provides an important overview of infectious etiology for neurodevelopment delay.

      Strengths:

      Strong RNA evaluation.

      Weaknesses:

      The study lacks an overview of other infectious agents. The study should address the epigenetic contributors (PMID: 36507115) and the role of supplements in improving outcomes (PMID: 27705610). 

      Addressing the above - with references included - is recommended. 

      Thank you for your valuable comment. Our research is mainly inspired by other infectious agents, such as Zika virus; there are many descriptions of Zika virus in the “Discussion” section of the manuscript to better describe and demonstrate our point of view (See pages 12–13). I was unable to retrieve the article (PMID: 36507115), kindly help in confirming the PMID number. I will be very grateful if you can provide the full text. Secondly, I have carefully read the article (PMID: 27705610), which is a very rich and comprehensive review, and summarised and cited it in appropriate places in our manuscript.

      Revision in the “Discussion- limitation” section, line 375-379:

      “First, although several recent protocols have made use of growth factors to promote further neuronal maturation and survival (Lucke-Wold et al., 2018), the organoid culture scheme needs to be further improved owing to the lower percentage of mature neurons and the challenge of cell necrosis within the organoids at this stage in day 55 organoids.”

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review): 

      This article is the first report to study the effects of T. pallidum on the neural development of an iPSC-derived brain organoid model. The study indicates that T. pallidum inhibits the differentiation of subNPC1B neurons into hindbrain neurons, hence affecting brain organoid neurodevelopment. Additionally, the TCF3 and notch signaling pathways may be involved in the inhibition of the subNPC1B-hindbrain neuron differentiation axis. While the majority of the data in this study support the conclusions, there are still some questions that need to be addressed and data quality needs to be improved. The study provides valuable insights for future investigations into the mechanisms underlying congenital neurodevelopment disability. 

      I sincerely appreciate your comments on our paper. The comments have helped us greatly improve the quality of our paper. Thank you for your time and constructive critique.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Paired t-test analysis is not appropriate if two distinct groups are compared. 

      I sincerely apologize for our presentation. We used a nonparametric t-test to compare the two groups. I have confirmed and corrected the statistical method description of this manuscript (Revision in the “Materials and methods” section (line 553-555) and “Figures-legend” section (line 789-790, 817-818, 829-830) in current manuscript).

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      (1) Can the authors explain why the mean size of organoids infected with T. pallidum is smaller?

      Thank you for your valuable comment. In our study, T. pallidum infection resulted in brain organisational changes in neural rosette-like structures resembling the proliferative regions of the human ventricular zone and caused fewer and incomplete rosette-like structures. Next, the ventricular zone is also the main area where neural progenitor cells (NPCs) reside (PMID: 33838105); our results showed that the proportion of neural progenitor cells (NPC)1 was reduced after T. pallidum infection. Rosette-like structure size changes owing to NPC depletion. Therefore, the mean size of organoids infected with T. pallidum is smaller.

      Revision in the “Results” section, line 101-104:

      “T. pallidum infection resulted in brain organisational changes in neural rosette-like structures resembling the proliferative regions of the human ventricular zone where NPC reside (Krenn et al., 2021), and caused fewer and incomplete rosette-like structures (P < 0.01) (Figure 1D)”

      (2) Why was the target gene for qRT-PCR validation selected to be HOXA5、HOXC5、HOXA4?

      Thank you for your valuable comment. The qRT-PCR experiment was selected here to verify the analysis results of the scRNA-seq. HOX family genes are key factors controlling early hindbrain development, which are expressed in the hindbrain region during the gastrulation stage of early embryonic development and persist into the nerve cell stage, and are essential for the correct induction of hindbrain development and segmentation (PMID: 2571936, 1983472, 1673098, 15930115). Therefore, we selected the HOX family gene for verification.

      PMID: 2571936-WILKINSON D G, et al. Segmental expression of Hox-2 homoeobox- containing genes in the developing mouse hindbrain.

      PMID: 1983472-- FROHMAN M A, et al. Isolation of the mouse Hox-2.9 gene; analysis of embryonic expression suggests that positional information along the anterior-posterior axis is specified by mesoderm.

      PMID: 1673098--MURPHY P, et al. Expression of the mouse labial-like homeobox-containing genes, Hox 2.9 and Hox 1.6, during segmentation of the hindbrain.

      PMID: 15930115-- MCNULTY C L, et al. Knockdown of the complete Hox paralogous group 1 leads to dramatic hindbrain and neural crest defects.

      (3) Why was qRT-PCR not employed in other experimental validations, but solely to validate early neural-specific transcription factor changes?

      Thank you for your valuable comment. The qRT-PCR experiment was selected to validate early neural-specific transcription factor changes, indicating the reliability of the scRNA-seq. Then, validated scRNA-seq data were used to analyze for other neuro-specific gene differences, such as violin plots and heatmap showing differentially expressed genes (Figure 4D and Figure 5B, C). Of course, we also tested it with other experiments, such as immunohistochemistry and flow cytometric screening.

      (4) The authors found that T. pallidum might reduce the differentiation from subNPC1B to hindbrain neurons by inhibiting subNPC1B differentiation in brain organoids. Why were the subNPC1B-specific markers declining?

      Thank you for your valuable comment. scRNA-seq is aimed at complete brain organoids. Cluster analysis of cell types of organoids is performed according to specific marker genes of different cells. The decrease in the expression of marker genes of certain cell groups indicates that the cell proportion of such cell groups in the whole organoids is reduced. We analysed organoids following T. pallidum infection, uniform manifold approximation and projection (UMAP), and clustering of the NPC1 population demonstrated that T. pallidum downregulated the number of subNPC1B population. Therefore, the results demonstrated a decrease in the subNPC1B -specific markers.

      (5) In comparison to the other figures, Figure 5E letter size is excessively small and ambiguous.

      Thanks for your valuable comments, I have adjusted Figure 5E letter size.

      (6) Figure 5E shows that TCF3, more than one gene, is specifically enriched in subNPC1B of the T. pallidum group. It is best to confirm the impact of the other gene. 

      Thank you for raising this key issue that we had not addressed properly in our previous version of the manuscript; we have added further analytical data. The SCENIC analysis found that the transcriptional activity of 52 genes has significantly changed after T. pallidum infection. Furthermore, GO analyses demonstrated that 27 transcription factors were significantly enriched in four key pathways of neural differentiation and development. TCF3 is the sole transcription factor present in all four terms simultaneously, speculating that TCF3 is the key transcription factor for the inhibition of subNPC1B-hindbrain neuron differentiation caused by T. pallidum.

      Revision in the “Results” section, line 261-273:

      “Next, the single-cell regulatory network inference and clustering (SCENIC) analysis for the subNPC1B subcluster was performed to assess the differences in the transcriptional activity of the transcription factors between the two groups and found that the transcriptional activity of 52 genes significantly changed after T. pallidum infection (Figure 5E). Furthermore, GO analyses demonstrated that 27 transcription factors were significantly enriched in key pathways of neural differentiation and development in response to nervous system development, positive regulation of sequence-specific DNA-binding transcription factor activity, positive regulation of neuronal differentiation, and DNA templated transcription regulation. Remarkably, transcription factor 3 (TCF3) is the sole transcription factor present in all four terms simultaneously (Figure 5F), speculating that TCF3 is the key transcription factor for the inhibition of subNPC1B-hindbrain neuron differentiation caused by T. pallidum.”

      Revision in the “Materials and methods” section, line 540-543:

      “The Sankey diagram was created using SankeyMATIC (https://sankeymatic.com/) (Zhang et al., 2023), which was used to characterize the interactions between differential transcription factors and neural differentiation and development.”

      Revision in the “Figure and Figure Legend” section, line 832, 842-844:

      Author response image 2.

      Sankey diagram showing the correspondence between differential transcription factors and neural differentiation and development.

      (7) Are there other experiments demonstrating that TCF3 is a key transcription factor for the inhibition of subNPC1B-hindbrain neuron differentiation caused by T. pallidum

      Thank you for your valuable comment. In the previous experiment, we attempted to select a subNPC1B subcluster by flow sorting to verify the relevant molecular mechanism. Due to the small proportion of subNPC1B subcluster in the whole organoids, the selected cells were in a poor state and could not reach the number of cells required for the experiment. However, we used scRNA-seq data to further identify TCF3 as a key transcription factor that inhibits subNPC1B - hindbrain neuron differentiation induced by T. pallidum. The relevant results and descriptions of the analysis are detailed in the revised manuscript, please see our response to point (6) above.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      The reviewers found this manuscript to present convincing evidence for associative and non-associative behaviors elicited in male and female mice during a serial compound stimulus Pavlovian fear conditioning task. The work adds to ongoing efforts to identify multifaceted behaviors that reflect learning in classic paradigms and will be valuable to others in the field. The reviewers do note areas that would benefit from additional discussion and some minor gaps in data reporting that could be filled by additional analyses or experiments.

      We thank the reviewers and the editors for their thoughtful and constructive critiques of our manuscript. We have updated our manuscript with data from additional experiments as suggested by the reviewers, and we have significantly edited the text and figures to reflect these additions. Our detailed, point-by-point responses are below.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The main goal of the study was to tease apart the associative and non-associative elements of cued fear conditioning that could influence which defensive behaviors are expressed. To do this, the authors compared groups conditioned with paired, unpaired, or shock only procedures followed by extinction of the cue. The cue used in the study was not typical; serial presentation of a tone followed by a white noise was used in order to assess switches in behavior across the transition from tone to white noise. Many defensive behaviors beyond the typical freezing assessments were measured, and both male and female mice were included throughout. The authors found changes in behavioral transitions from freezing to flight during conditioning as the tone transitioned into white noise, and a switch in freezing during extinction such that it became high during the white noise as flight behavior decreased. Overall, this was an interesting analysis of transitions in defensive behaviors to a serially presented cue consisting of two auditory stimuli during conditioning and then extinction.

      We thank the Reviewer for their supportive insight.

      There are some concerns regarding the possibility that the white noise is more innately aversive than the tone, inducing more escape-like behaviors compared to a tone, especially since the shock only group also showed increased escape-like behaviors during the white noise versus tone. This issue would have been resolved by adding a control group where the order of the auditory stimuli was reversed (white noise->tone).

      We appreciate this concern, and we have added two additional groups to address this possibility. We have conducted the same experimental paradigm with 2 reverse-SCS groups (WN—tone), one with paired (new PA-R group), and one with unpaired (new UN-R group), presentations to shock during conditioning. These experiments revealed that during conditioning day 2 in both reverse order groups, WN causes reductions in freezing and increases in locomotor activity (see revised Figure 2D), an effect that is stronger in the UN-R compared to the PA-R group. This locomotor effect is neither darting nor escape jumping in the PA-R group (revised Figure 3G, I; Figure 4G). In the UN-R group, WN induces more activity than the PA-R group (Figure 2D), including some jumping at WN onset (Figure 3H), but no darting (Figure 4G). It is worth noting that WN does not elicit defensive behavior before conditioning at the sound intensity we use (75dB; see Fadok et al. 2017, Borkar et al. 2020, Borkar et al. 2024). Together, these results suggest that WN is an inherently more salient stimulus than tone, and it can elicit defensive behaviors in shock-sensitized mice through non-associative mechanisms. Indeed, stimulus salience is a key factor in this paradigm for inducing activity (see Hersman et al. 2020).

      While the more complete assessment of defensive behaviors beyond freezing is welcomed, the main conclusions in the discussion are overly focused on the paired group and the associative elements of conditioning, which would likely not be surprising to the field. If the goal, as indicated in the title, was to tease apart the associative and non-associative elements of conditioning and defensive behaviors, there needs to be a more emphasized discussion and explicit identification of the non-associative findings of their study, as this would be more impactful to the field.

      We have rewritten the Discussion to provide a greater emphasis on the findings of the study that are more related to non-associative mechanisms. For example, we argue that cue-salience and changes in stimulus intensity can induce non-associative increases in locomotor behavior and tail rattling in shock-sensitized mice.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors examined several defensive responses elicited during Pavlovian conditioning using a serial compound stimulus (SCS) as the conditioned stimulus (CS) and a shock unconditioned stimulus (US) in male and female mice. The SCS consisted of tone pips followed by white noise. Their design included 3 treatment groups that were either exposed to the CS and US in a paired fashion, in an unpaired fashion, or only exposed to the shock US. They compared freezing, jumping, darting, and tail rattling across all groups during conditioning and extinction. During conditioning, strong freezing responses to the tone pips followed by strong jumping and darting responses to the white noise were present in the paired group but less robust or not present in the unpaired or shock only groups. During extinction, tone-induced freezing diminished while the jumping was replaced by freezing and darting in the paired group. Together, these findings support the idea that associative pairings are necessary for conditioned defensive responses.

      Strengths:

      The study has strong control groups including a group that receives the same stimuli in an unpaired fashion and another control group that only receives the shock US and no CS to test the associative value of the SCS to the US. The authors examine a wide variety of defensive behaviors that emerge during conditioning and shift throughout extinction: in addition to the standard freezing response, jumping, darting, and tail rattling were also measured.

      We thank the Reviewer for their supportive appraisal of this study’s strengths.

      Weaknesses:

      This study could have greater impact and significance if additional conditions were added (e.g., using other stimuli of differing salience during the SCS), and determining the neural correlates or brain regions that are differentially recruited during different phases of the task across the different groups.

      In the revised manuscript, we have conducted experiments with 2 reverse-SCS groups (WN—tone): one with paired (new PA-R group), and one with unpaired (new UN-R group), presentations to shock during conditioning. These experiments revealed that during conditioning day 2 in both reverse order groups, WN causes reductions in freezing and increases in locomotor activity (see revised Figure 2D), an effect that is stronger in the UN-R compared to the PA-R group. This locomotor effect is neither darting nor escape jumping in the PA-R group (revised Figure 3G, I; Figure 4G). In the UN-R group, WN induces more activity than the PA-R group (Figure 2D), including some jumping at WN onset (Figure 3H), but no darting (Figure 4G). Indeed, stimulus salience is a key factor in this paradigm for inducing activity (see Hersman et al. 2020). Together, these results suggest that WN is an inherently more salient stimulus than tone, and it can elicit defensive behaviors in shock-sensitized mice through non-associative mechanisms. It is worth noting that WN does not elicit defensive behavior before conditioning at the sound intensity we use (75dB; see Fadok et al. 2017, Borkar et al. 2020, Borkar et al. 2024).

      We agree that determining the neuronal correlates and brain regions that are involved in defensive ethograms at various stages within this paradigm is of great importance, but we feel that those experiments are beyond the scope of the current study, which is focused on identifying behavioral differences based on associative and non-associative factors.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      In LINES 72-73, authors say they used a "truly random procedure" as one of their control groups. Then in LINES 113-116, they describe this group as "unpaired" where the "SCS could not reliably predict footshock". Combined, it is unclear if this group is random or unpaired. The "truly random procedure" is defined, by the cited Rescorla paper, as "the two events are programmed entirely randomly and independently in such a way that some "pairings" of CS and US may occur by chance alone". So, truly random would indicate that the shock may occur during the cue, while unpaired indicates the shock was explicitly unpaired from the cue. If the authors used a random procedure, the groups need to be labeled as random, not unpaired, and the # of cues that happened to coincide with footshock per animal needs to be reported somewhere. If the authors used an unpaired procedure (which appears to be the case based on 40-60s ITI between SCS and footshock being reported), it needs to be clearer and consistent throughout that it was explicitly unpaired, as well as removing the claim in LINE 72-73 that they used a "truly random procedure".

      We did indeed use an explicitly unpaired procedure. We have adjusted the text and figures to better reflect this, and we removed any mentions of randomness with regards to the presentations of SCS and footshock.

      Despite the lack of significant sex differences, it would still be helpful if data panels with individual data points (e.g. Fig 2E-J), were presented as identifiable by sex (e.g. closed vs open circles for males vs females).

      The revised manuscript now compares four or five groups per figure, making data presentation complicated. Providing the individual data points in each panel reduces figure clarity, therefore, we feel it is best to present the data as box-and-whisker plots without them. However, the source data files for each figure are available to the reader and the data are clearly labeled to be identifiable by sex.

      Is it not odd that all groups showed similar levels of contextual freezing during the 3min baseline? If shocks are unsignaled in the UN and SO groups, one would expect higher levels of contextual freezing compared to a paired group.

      We are not certain why one would expect higher levels of contextual freezing in the UN and SO groups compared to the PA group at the beginning of conditioning day 2. Another study also looked at baseline freezing in a contextual fear group (which is the same as shock only in our study) and in an auditory cued fear conditioning group within the conditioning context, and their data show that freezing during the baseline period is equivalent between groups (Sachella et al., 2022).

      During baseline on Extinction Day 1, it does seem that the unpaired and SO groups tend to have higher freezing levels compared to the paired groups. Author response image 1 shows baseline freezing during the first 3 minutes of extinction day 1. After two days of conditioning in the conditioned flight paradigm, contextual freezing either is, or trends to be significantly higher in the UN, UN-R, and SO groups than the PA and PA-R groups.

      Author response image 1.

      Baseline Freezing levels for all groups during the first extinction session. Baseline period is defined as the first 180 seconds of the session, before any auditory stimulus was presented. PA, Paired; UN, Unpaired; SO, Shock Only; PA-R, Paired Reverse; UN-R, Unpaired Reverse. *p<0.05, **p<0.01, ****p<0.0001.

      Do the tone and WN elicit similar levels of defensive behaviors in a naïve mouse? Or have the authors tested WN followed by tone? Is there a potential issue that the WN may be innately aversive which is then amplified with training? i.e. does a tone preferentially induce freezing while WN induces active behaviors, regardless of which sensory stimulus is temporally closer to the shock? If the change in behavior is really due to the pairing and temporal proximity to shock, then there should be increased jumps, etc to the tone if trained with WN->tone.

      WN can indeed be used as an aversive stimulus under certain conditions and at sufficiently high decibel levels. In the conditioned flight paradigm, WN is presented at 75dB, which is below the threshold for eliciting an acoustic startle response in a C57BL/6J mouse (Fadok et al. 2009). Also, during pre-exposure, when animals are naïve to the SCS, tone and WN stimuli do not elicit defensive behaviors (see Fadok et al. 2017, Borkar et al. 2020, 2024).

      As suggested by the Reviewer, during revision we have included reverse-SCS paired (PA-R) and unpaired (UN-R) groups to test for the role of stimulus salience and stimulus order on defensive ethograms. During conditioning day 2, the PA-R group exhibited little freezing to the WN, with a slightly elevated activity index, and they exhibited robust freezing during tone (revised Figure 2A-H). The activity during the WN in the PA-R group was significantly lower than that of the PA group (Figure 2L). The PA-R group also did not respond to WN with escape jumps or darting (Figure 3I, 4G). The UN-R group displayed greater activity during the WN than the UN and PA-R groups, but less activity than the PA group (Figure 2D, H). The UN-R group did not dart but this group displayed some jumping at WN onset (Figure 3H), like what was observed in the UN group.

      These data suggest that WN has inherent, salient properties that can induce some non-associative activity after the mouse has been sensitized by shock (see also Hersman et al. 2020 for more detailed analysis of stimulus salience in the conditioned flight paradigm). However, only in the PA group is robust flight behavior (comprised of high numbers of escape jumps and darting) observed. Therefore, both stimulus salience and temporal order are important for eliciting transitions from freezing to flight.

      Fig 3G/4G are hard for me to understand. The figure legends say they're survival graphs but the y-axis labels "Latency to initial jump/dart (% of cohort)" confuses me. What is the purpose of these graphs? Perhaps they are not needed. Or consider presenting them similar to Fig 7C, D as those were more intuitive and faster for me to grasp.

      We had intended these plots to show that a greater proportion of the paired group jumps and darts during WN compared to the unpaired group, and that the percentage of the cohort that jumps and darts increases across conditioning trials. Because these graphs were not clear, we have removed them, and we have replaced them with graphs comparing total cohort percentages that jumped (Figure 3I) or darted (Figure 4G) over the whole CD2 session.

      For the extinction data, I did not see within group analyses for within or between session fear extinction to the tone. So, for the paired group, were the last 4 trials of Ext 1 significantly lower than the first 4 trials? If not, then they did not show within-session extinction. Also, for the paired group, were the last 4 trials of Ext 1 significantly different than the first 4 trials of Ext 2? This would test for long-term retention and spontaneous recovery.

      In the original submission and in the revised manuscript, we calculated a delta change score for freezing during tone in the early versus late blocks of 4 trials, and then we statistically compared these differences across groups (Figure 5C, D). This allowed us to assess between-group differences in changes to tone-evoked freezing during extinction. Freezing to tone did decrease significantly over the first extinction session for the paired group (Early Ext1 vs Late Ext1, paired t-test, t(31) \= 6.23, p<0.0001), and when comparing late Ext1 and early Ext2, we found that tone-evoked freezing did significantly increase (Late Ext1 vs Early Ext2, paired t-test, t(31) \= 5.26, p<0.0001). This increase in cue-induced freezing between days of extinction is characteristic of C57BL/6J mice (Hefner et al., 2008). Our study did not test for more distal timepoints, so we cannot comment on the efficacy of long-term retention or spontaneous recovery.

      For the conditioning and extinction data across Figs 2, 5 and 6, what I gather from them is that freezing is high to the tone and low to the WN during conditioning, and then low to the tone, and high to the WN across extinction. Then for activity levels I see they are low to the tone and high to the WN during conditioning, and then low to the WN during extinction. The piece that is missing is what are activity levels like to the tone during extinction. Are they low like in conditioning and remain low in extinction? Or do they increase across extinction as freezing decreases? As I was going through these graphs I drew myself out step function summaries of the freezing and activity levels between tone/WN for conditioning vs extinction; maybe the authors could consider a summary figure.

      We thank the Reviewer for their interest. We found that within the paired group, activity to tone remained low throughout both days of extinction (though increased within each session) and did not return to normal activity levels. We present this data in Author response image 2. We thank the Reviewer for the suggestion of a summary figure, but we feel there are too many axes of classification (between-group, within-group, multiple behaviors, tone/WN, conditioning/extinction) to coherently present our findings in a single figure.

      Author response image 2.

      Trial-by-trial plot of activity index during the tone period of SCS across both extinction sessions for the PA group. SCS, Serial compound stimulus; Ext, extinction; PA, Paired.

      In the discussion (LINE 592-3), they discuss that shock sensitization in the SO group may prime a stressed animal to dart more readily to WN upon stimulus transition. Should this not also happen during the transition of silence to tone? What is special about a transition between two auditory stimuli that would result in panic like behavior in an animal that only received shock presentations? This also gets back to an earlier concern above regarding the potentially innately aversiveness of the WN.

      After 2 days of shock sensitization, we observe that mice exhibit freezing to the tone during the first three trials of extinction day 1 (Figure 5A). This non-associative freezing response is like that observed in other studies of non-associative fear processing (please see Kamprath and Wotjak, 2004). As trials progress during extinction day 1, mice do become mildly activated during the tone (Author response image 3). The transition to WN in the shock-only group during extinction induces non-associative darting responses, but it does not induce escape jumping behavior (Figure 7).  We hypothesize that the innate salience of the WN is a vital factor contributing to these escalated responses. The importance of stimulus salience in conditioned flight was also demonstrated by Hersman et al., 2020 for SCS conditioning, and by Furuyama et al., 2023 for single tone conditioning.  Just as with conditional freezing responses (Kamprath and Wotjak, 2004), we believe that conditional flight is controlled by summative components, one being associative and the other non-associative.

      Author response image 3.

      Trial-by-trial plot of activity index during the tone period of SCS across both extinction sessions for the SO group. SCS, Serial compound stimulus; Ext, extinction; SO, Shock Only.

      In the discussion (LINE 583), they say that the development of explosive defensive behaviors are "not achievable with traditional single-cue Pavlovian conditioning paradigms". The authors should include a caveat here that the current study did not compare their results to a group of mice that received just WN-shock pairings.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. This statement was meant to highlight that traditional paradigms do not offer an element of signaling the temporal imminence of threat, only its inevitability. It was not our intention to state that defensive escape behaviors were unachievable in single-cue conditioning paradigms, and we regret not making this clear. Indeed, the supplement of Fadok et al. 2017 shows that WN-shock conditioning is capable of inducing flight, Furuyama et al. 2023 shows that tone-shock conditioning is capable of inducing flight under specific parameters, and Gruene et al. 2015 demonstrates that single CS-US pairings induce conditional darting behaviors in female rats. We have adjusted the text to better reflect our intent.  

      Minor comment to LINE 613-5: Speaking as someone who has done fear conditioning in both mice and rats, tail rattling may be specific to mice (I have seen this often) and likely not observable in rats (never seen it).

      We thank the Reviewer for this information. We have adjusted our text to mainly discuss mouse-specific tail rattling.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The research questions in this study are novel and bring new insight to the field. However, there are some issues that can be addressed to improve the overall quality of the study, namely, the reader is left wanting to know more, especially about how neural circuits contribute to these different defensive behaviors during this task. Below are some recommendations for the authors that would greatly improve the impact and significance of this study.

      (1) What are the neural correlates or circuits recruited during these different defensive behaviors across the course of conditioning and extinction? How might they differ between the PA and UN groups? What differences might emerge when an animal is shifting their defensive behavior from freezing to darting, for example? Answering these questions would require intensive additional experiments, therefore more discussion of possible neural mechanisms that might be recruited during this task would be appreciated, given the scope of the subject area.

      We agree that understanding the neural circuits recruited during these behaviors and across conditioning and extinction is of vital importance. We are actively working on these questions, and we have published on the role of central amygdala circuits (Fadok et al. 2017) as well as on top-down control of flight by the medial prefrontal cortex (Borkar et al. 2024). Because the current manuscript is focused on learning mechanisms influencing defensive behavior, we would prefer to focus our discussion on that, rather than speculating on possible neural mechanisms. However, we have added a statement in the Discussion (LINES 706-707) emphasizing that future studies should investigate the neuronal mechanisms contributing to threat associations and different defensive behaviors.

      (2) Were any vocalizations observed during conditioning or extinction phases? If not, could you speculate how type and occurrence of vocalizations might correlate with the different defensive responses observed?

      Audible vocalizations were only observed during footshock presentations (squeaks). Unfortunately, we do not have the proper specialized recording equipment to monitor the full spectrum of mouse vocalizations, especially those in the ultrasonic range. Thus, we cannot speculate on the nuances of vocalizations in mice with respect to this behavioral paradigm. To the best of our knowledge, mice have not been reported to emit specific ultrasonic calls during conditioned threat like those of rats. That said, it would be of interest to determine if mice emit different vocalizations during different defensive behaviors.

      (3) The transition from freezing to flight during the SCS is thought to be due to the close proximity of threat imminence between the WN CS and shock US. What if you switched the order of the SCS stimuli to WN followed by tone stimuli? If the salience of the WN stimulus is truly driving the jumping behavior, then it would be observed even if the WN stimulus preceded the pure tone stimulus and that would bring additional evidence that it is the associative value of the stimuli rather than its salience that's driving the defensive behaviors. What do you predict you would observe in rodents that were given a WN-tone SCS paired and unpaired in the same design of this study?

      As suggested by the reviewer, we collected data from reverse-SCS paired and unpaired groups and reported our findings within the manuscript. Our detailed findings are also discussed above. Overall, we find that a combination of stimulus salience and temporal proximity, and a summation of non-associative and associative mechanisms, are necessary to elicit explosive flight behavior (escape jumping and darting).

      References

      Borkar CD, Dorofeikova M, Le QE, Vutukuri R, Vo C, Hereford D, Resendez A, Basavanhalli S, Sifnugel N, Fadok JP (2020) Sex differences in behavioral responses during a conditioned flight paradigm. Behavioural Brain Research 389:112623.

      Borkar CD, Stelly CE, Fu X, Dorofeikova M, Le QE, Vutukuri R, Vo C, Walker A, Basavanhalli S, Duong A, Bean E, Resendez A, Parker JG, Tasker JG, Fadok JP (2024) Top-down control of flight by a non-canonical cortico-amygdala pathway. Nature 625: 743-749.

      Fadok JP, Krabbe S, Markovic M, Courtin J, Xu C, Massi L, Botta P, Bylund K, Müller C, Kovacevic A, Tovote P, Lüthi A (2017) A competitive inhibitory circuit for selection of active and passive fear response. Nature 542:96-100.

      Furuyama T, Imayoshi A, Iyobe T, Ono M, Ishikawa T, Ozaki N, Kato N, Yamamoto R (2023) Multiple factors contribute to flight behaviors during fear conditioning. Scientific Reports 13:10402. 

      Gruene TM, Flick K, Stefano A, Shea SD, Shansky RM (2015) Sexually divergent expression of active and passive conditioned fear responses in rats. eLIfe 4:e11352.

      Hefner K, Whittle N, Juhasz J, Norcross M, Karlsson RM, Saksida LM, Bussey TJ, Singewald N, Holmes A (2008) Impaired Fear Extinction Learning and Cortico-Amygdala Circuit Abnormalities in a Common Genetic Mouse Strain. Journal of Neuroscience 6:8074-8085.

      Hersman S, Allen D, Hashimoto M, Brito SI, Anthony T (2020) Stimulus salience determines defensive behaviors elicited by aversively conditioned serial compound auditory stimuli. elife 9:e53803. 

      Kamprath K and Wotjak CT (2004) Nonassociative learning processes determine expression and extinction of conditioned fear in mice. Learning & Memory 11:770-786.

      Sachella TE, Ihidoype MR, Proulx CD, Pafundo DE, Medina JH, Mendez P & Piriz J (2022) A novel role for the lateral habenula in fear learning. Neuropsychopharmacology 47:1210-1219.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      The manuscript titled "Evolutionary and Functional Analyses Reveal a Role for the RHIM in Tuning RIPK3 Activity Across Vertebrates" by Fay et al. explores the function of RIPK gene family members across a wide range of vertebrate and invertebrate species through a combination of phylogenomics and functional studies. By overexpressing these genes in human cell lines, the authors examine their capacity to activate NF-κB and induce cell death. The methods employed are appropriate, with a thorough analysis of gene loss, positive selection, and functionality. While the study is well-executed and comprehensive, its broader relevance remains limited, appealing mainly to specialists in this specific field of research. It misses the opportunity to extract broader insights that could extend the understanding of these genes beyond evolutionary conservation, particularly by employing evolutionary approaches to explore more generalizable functions.

      Major comments:

      The main issue I encounter is distinguishing between what is novel in this study and what has been previously demonstrated. What new insights have been gained here that are of broader relevance? The discussion, which would be a good place to do so, is very speculative and has little to do with the actual results. Throughout the manuscript, there is little explanation of the study's importance beyond the fact that it was possible to conduct it. Is the evolutionary analysis being used to advance our understanding of gene function, or is the focus merely on how these genes behave across different species? The former would be exciting, while the latter feels less impactful.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive feedback. With regard to the major comment, we have now made changes throughout the revised manuscript to highlight the novel insights that emerge from our work, as well as the importance of using evolutionary and functional analyses to understand gene function. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      By combining bioinformatical and experimental approaches, the authors address the question of why several vertebrate lineages lack specific genes of the necroptosis pathway or those that regulate the interplay between apoptosis and necroptosis. The lack of such genes was already known from previous publications, but the current manuscript provides a more in-depth analysis and also uses experiments in human cells to address the question of the functionality of the remaining genes and pathways. A particular focus is placed on RIPK3/RIPK1 and their dual roles in inducing NFkB and/or necroptosis.

      Strengths:

      The well-documented bioinformatical analyses provide a comprehensive data basis of the presence/absence of RIP-kinases, other RHIM proteins, apoptosis signaling proteins (FADD, CASP8, CASP10), and some other genes involved in these pathways. Several of these genes are known to be missing in certain animal lineages, which raises the question of why their canonical binding partners are present in these species. By expressing several such proteins (both wildtype and mutants destroying particular interaction regions) in human cells, the authors succeed in establishing a general role of RIPK3 and RIPK1 in NFkB activation. This function appears to be better conserved and more universal than the necroptotic function of the RHIM proteins. The authors also scrutinize the importance of the kinase function and RHIM integrity for these separate functionalities.

      Weaknesses:

      A major weakness of the presented study is the experimental restriction to human HEK293 cells. There are several situations where the functionality of proteins from distant organisms (like lampreys or even mussels) in human cells is not necessarily indicative of their function in the native context. In some cases, these problems are addressed by co-expressing potential interaction partners, but not all of these experiments are really informative.

      A second weakness is that the manuscript addresses some interesting effects only superficially. By using host cells that are deleted for certain signaling components, a more focussed hypothesis could have been tested.

      Thus, while the aim of the study is mostly met, it could have been a bit more ambitious. The limited conclusions drawn by the authors are supported by convincing evidence. I have no doubts that this study will be very useful for future studies addressing the evolution of necroptosis and its regulation by NFkB and apoptosis.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive feedback. We agree that our study is limited by using HEK293 cells. However, we do not have appropriate cell lines for all species analyzed and therefore wished to use a single system to test all effects. As the reviewer points out, we do  co-express when possible, and are careful in the manuscript to not overextend our conclusions. We, like the reviewer, believe that many of the intriguingly findings in this study, which was intended to cover a broad range of species, will be useful for more in-depth studies in a given species.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      This important study provides insights into the functional diversification of RIP family kinase proteins in vertebrate animals. The provided results, which combine bioinformatic and experimental analyses, will be of interest to specialists in both immunology and evolutionary biology. However, the computational part of the methodology is insufficiently covered in the paper and the experimental results would benefit from including data for additional species.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive feedback. As described below, we have now addressed the concerns about the description of the computational methods.

      (1) In the Methods section concerning gene loss analysis, the authors refer to the 'Phylogenetic analysis' section for details of RIPK sequence acquisition and alignment procedure. This section is missing from the manuscript as provided. In its absence, it is hard for the reviewer to provide relevant comments on gene presence/absence analysis.

      We have expanded the gene loss analysis methods to be more comprehensive. 

      (2) In the same section, the authors state that gene sequences were filtered and grouped based on the initial gene tree pattern (lines 448-449). How exactly did the authors filter the non-RIP kinases and other irrelevant homologs from the gene trees? Did they consider the reciprocal best (BLAST) hit approach or similar approaches for orthology inference? Did they also encounter potential pseudogenes of genes marked as missing in Figure 1C? Will the gene trees mentioned be available as supplementary files?

      We have expanded the gene loss analysis methods to be more comprehensive. 

      (3) The authors state the presence of additional RIPK2 paralog in non-therian vertebrates.

      The ramifications of this paralog loss in therians are not discussed in the text, although RIPK2 is also involved in NF-kB activation. In addition, the RIPK2B gene loss pattern is shunned from Figure 1C to Supplementary Figure 4, despite posing comparable interest to the reader.

      We are also intrigued by the RIPK2/RIPK2B data and felt it important to include our findings here, however we do not have functional data for RIPK2B at this point and feel it is better suited for a separate study. We therefore focused both the title and the main figures on RIPK3, for which we have functional data.

      (4) The authors present evidence for (repeated) positive selection in both RIPK1 and RIPK3 in bats; however, neither bat RIPK1/3 orthologs nor bat-specific RHIM tetrad variants (IQFG, IQLG) are considered in the experimental part of the work.

      We included a tetrad variant (VQFG) that is found in bats and multiple other species. We wanted to test a wide range of variant amino acids, so testing both IQFG (found only in bats) and VQFG (found in bats and multiple other diverse species) was not of high importance.

      (5) The authors present gene presence/absence patterns for zebra mussels as an outgroup of vertebrate species analyzed. From the evolutionary perspective, adding results for a closer invertebrate group, such as lancelets, tunicates, or echinoderms, would be beneficial for reconstructing the evolutionary progression of RIPK-mediated immune functions in animals.

      In our initial analyses, we searched for RIPK-like proteins in cnidarians, arthropods, nematodes, amoeba, and spiralia, with only spiralia species containing proteins with substantial homology to vertebrate RIPK1 proteins, as defined by a homologous N-terminal kinase domain and C-terminal RHIM and death domain. We have expanded this analysis to include lancelets, tunicates, and echinoderms and found several lancelet species with RIPK1 like proteins. These data have been added to the manuscript.

      (6) In the broader sense, the list of non-mammalian species included in the study is not explained or substantiated in the text. What was the rationale behind selecting lizards, turtles, and lampreys for experimental assays? Why was turtle RIPK3 but not turtle RIPK1CT protein used for functional tests? Which results do the authors expect to observe if amphibian or teleost RIPK1/3 are included in the analysis, especially those with divergent tetrad variants?

      We have added additional text to define our rationale for selecting which species were tested. 

      (7) For lamprey RIPK3, the observed NF-kB activity levels still remain lower than those of mammalian and reptilian orthologs even after catalytic tetrad modification. In the same way, switching human RIPK3 catalytic tetrad to that of lamprey does not result in NF-kB activation. What are the potential reasons for the observed difference? Does it mean that lamprey's RIPK3 functions in NF-kB activation are, at least partially, delegated to RIPK1?

      The function of lamprey RIPK3 is intriguing, albeit unknown. The reduced activation in human cells may be due to an incompatibility between lamprey RIPK3 and human NF-kB machinery, or it may not function in NF-kB at all. Considering that lamprey do not have other components of the known mammalian necroptosis pathway, it is unclear what function RIPK3 would serve in these species. It is possible lamprey may have a necroptosis pathway that is RIPK3-dependent but distinct from the mammalian pathway. It is an interesting question for future study. 

      (8) In lines 386-388, the authors state that 'only non-mammalian RIPK1CT proteins required the RHIM for maximal NF-kB activation', which is corroborated by results in Figure 4B. The authors further associate this finding with a lack of ZBP1 in the respective species (lines 388-389). However, non-squamate reptiles seem to retain ZBP1, as suggested by

      Supplementary Table 1. Given that, do the authors expect to observe RHIM-independent (maximal) NF-kB activation in turtles and crocodilians or respective RIPK1CT-transfected cells?

      While turtles and crocodiles do retain ZBP1, it is still unclear if they are able to activate ZBP1/RIPK3/MLKL-dependent necroptosis similar to mammals, especially given the divergence in the turtle ZBP1 RHIMs seen in Figure 4C. Future studies will be needed to further test our hypotheses and to continue to characterize innate immune function and evolution across a range of vertebrate species. 

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Minor comments:

      (1) The title is somewhat restrictive, as it only mentions RIPK3, despite the manuscript covering a broader range of RIPKs and associated proteins.

      We agree that a title that encompasses both the breadth of our study and the depth with which we analyzed RIPK3 would be ideal. However, we were unable to come up with a succinct title that conveyed both points appropriately, so opted for one that focused on our RIPK3 insights.

      (2) Several supplementary figures contain valuable information that could be incorporated into the main figures for greater clarity and emphasis.

      We agree that many interesting pieces of data are in the supplement. We felt it was important to include those data in the manuscript, but also wanted to keep the main manuscript figures as focused as possible.  

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) I do not fully agree with the claim that caspase-8 is absent from fish. I briefly repeated this part of the analysis and found several fish proteins that cluster with caspase-8 rather than caspase-10 or cFLIP. From the method section, it does not really become clear how the Casp8/Casp10/cFLIP decision was made, and particularly, how cases were addressed where Genew predate the caspase-8/caspase-10 split. To name just a few examples, the authors might check uniprot:A0A444UA91, W5MXS4, or A0A8X8BKJ8 for being fish Caspase-8 candidates.

      We thank the reviewer for their critical analysis. CASP8 and CASP10 are very similar proteins in humans. We are distinguishing between the two based on vertebrate phylogeny with outgroup proteins (CASP2, CASP9, and CFLAR, see tree in Author response image 1 below) to help define the CASP8/CASP10 clade. Once we isolate CASP8/10, we build an additional tree to distinguish CASP8 and CASP10. Using this method, all fish CASP8/10-like proteins cluster with the mammalian CASP10 clade rather than the CASP8 clade, despite many fish proteins being annotated as CASP8 or CASP8-like. We do acknowledge that, because of the similarities between CASP8 and CASP10, there are likely proteins that can fall in either clade depending on which outgroups are included. To this end, we have updated our gene loss figure to only denote whether a species has no CASP8/10, a single CASP8/10 protein, or both CASP8 and CASP10. We have also updated our methods to better define how we completed our analyses. 

      Author response image 1.

      (2) While analyzing which RIPK3 protein causes cell death (lines 188ff), the underlying assumption is that the heterologous RIPK3 proteins can interact with human MLKL and activate it by phosphorylation. No attempts are being made to check if MLKL actually gets phosphorylated, and this issue is also not discussed. In Figure 2C, cell death is either measured by RIPK3 overexpression alone or by the additional overexpression of ZBP1 and MLKL. However, it is not shown if in all cases all the transfected proteins are expressed at a comparable level, or if the observed cell death might be caused by MLKL/ZBP1 overexpression alone.

      Cell death is dependent on expression of ZBP1, MLKL, and RIPK3, as shown in

      Supplementary Figure 6. We have attempted to detect phospho-MLKL via western blot. However, in these overexpression assays, we are able to detect phospho-MLKL in the presence of RIPK3 and MLKL alone, independent of activation of cell death. In fact, we see reduced phospho-MLKL and reduced expression of MLKL overall when ZBP1, MLKL, and RIPK3 are added, presumably due to cell death induced in these conditions (see blot in Author response image 2 below). We therefore felt these data were of limited use here.

      Author response image 2.

      (3) The manuscript describes a well-documented bioinformatical analysis and acknowledges the body of earlier published work on necroptosis evolution and associated gene losses. However, when discussing the RHIM-related aspects, the authors do not mention previous publications on RHIM conservation in invertebrates and even fungal proteins such as Het-S. They also fail to mention/discuss the amyloid-forming properties of RHIMs, which I consider crucial for understanding the function of RHIM-containing proteins.

      We thank the reviewer for their insight. We have added additional points on both RHIM conservation and amyloid formation.

      (4) Related to the above issue: In lines 226ff, the induction of NFkB by RIPK3 overexpression is described. While RIPK3 from other mammals requires endogenous (human) RIPK1 to be present, lizard and turtle RIPK3 do not require human RIPK1 but *do* require functional RHIMs. It is not checked (or at least discussed) if RHIM amyloid formation is required, nor if the RHIM of the heterologous RIPK3 might act through interaction with endogenous (human) RIPK3.

      We and others (PMID: 29073079) did not detect RIPK3 protein in HEK293T cells. This, combined with the requirement for exogenous RIPK3 to activate cell death, indicate that endogenous RIPK3 is not contributing to these assays. 

      (5) In lines 275ff, the authors observe that RIPK1s from other mammalian species do not require the RHIM for NFkB activation, while RIPK1 from non-mammalian species do require the RHIM. I wonder why the (in my opinion) most obvious explanation is not addressed: Maybe the mammalian RIPK1 proteins are similar enough to the human one so that they can signal on their own, while the more distant RIPK1 cannot and thus require human RIPK1 (associated via RHIMs) for NFkB activation? Since the authors used RIPK1-deficient cells in previous experiments, wouldn't it make sense to test them here, too?

      It is intriguing that the more diverged RIPK1 species require the RHIM for NF-kB signaling. In Supplementary Figure 12, we do test the mammalian and non-mammalian proteins in RIPK1 KO cells and all proteins are able to activate NF-kB. So while nonmammalian RIPK1 signaling is dependent on the RHIM, it is independent of endogenous RIPK1.  

      Minor comments:

      (1) In the legend of Figure 1, there is a typo "heat amp".

      This typo has now been corrected.

      (2) In Figure 3A, the term "FUBAR" is not explained at all.

      FUBAR has now been defined in the methods section.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      A few typos and graph inconsistencies have been encountered in the course of the manuscript, e.g.:

      (1) Line 168: 'heat amp' -> 'heat map'.

      (2) Lines 290-291: 'known mediate' -> 'known to mediate' (?)

      We thank the reviewer for catching these mistakes. They have been corrected. 

      (3) Supplementary Figure 12: Are human RIPK1 results presented in both 'mammalian' and 'non-mammalian' parts of the figure? If so, why do human data differ between the graphs?

      Mammalian and non-mammalian data were collected in separate experiments with human RIPK1 used as a control for both. The human data shown in the two graphs represent two separate experiments.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      We thank the reviewers for the constructive comments, which have improved the manuscript. In response to these comments, we have made the following major changes to the main text and reviewer response:

      (1) Added experimental and computational evidence to support the use of Cut&Tag to determine speckle location.

      (2) Performed new Transmission Electron Microscopy (TEM) experiments to visualize interchromatin granule clusters +/- speckle degradation.

      (3) Altered the text of the manuscript to remove qualitative statements and clarify effect sizes.

      (4) Performed new analyses of published whole genome bisulfite data from LIMe-Hi-C following DNMT1 inhibition to demonstrate that CpG methylation is lost at DNMT1i-specific gained CTCF sites.

      (5) Included citations for relevant literature throughout the text.

      These revisions in addition to others are described in the point-by-point response below.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary

      Roseman et al. use a new inhibitor of the maintenance DNA methyltransferase DNMT1 to probe the role of methylation on binding of the CTCF protein, which is known to be involved chromatin loop formation. As previous reported, and as expected based on our knowledge that CTCF binding is methylation-sensitive, the authors find that loss of methylation leads to additional CTCF binding sites and increased loop formation. By comparing novel loops with the binding of the pre-mRNA splicing factor SON, which localizes to the nuclear speckle compartment, they propose that these reactivated loops localize to near speckles. This behavior is dependent on CTCF whereas degradation of two speckle proteins does not affect CTCF binding or loop formation. The authors propose a model in which DNA methylation controls the association of genome regions with speckles via CTCF-mediated insulation.

      Strengths

      The strengths of the study are 1) the use of a new, specific DNMT1 inhibitor and 2) the observation that genes whose expression is sensitive to DNMT1 inhibition and dependent on CTCF (cluster 2) show higher association with SON than genes which are sensitive to DNMT1 inhibition but are CTCF insensitive, is in line with the authors' general model.

      Weaknesses

      There are a number of significant weaknesses that as a whole undermine many of the key conclusions, including the overall mechanistic model of a direct regulatory role of DNA methylation on CTCF-mediated speckle association of chromatin loops.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s constructive comments and address them point-by-point below.

      (1) The authors frequently make quasi-quantitative statements but do not actually provide the quantitative data, which they actually all have in hand. To give a few examples: "reactivated CTCF sites were largely methylated (p. 4/5), "many CTCF binding motifs enriched..." (p.5), "a large subset of reactivated peaks..."(p.5), "increase in strength upon DNMT1 inhibition" (p.5); "a greater total number....." (p.7). These statements are all made based on actual numbers and the authors should mention the numbers in the text to give an impression of the extent of these changes (see below) and to clarify what the qualitative terms like "largely", "many", "large", and "increase" mean. This is an issue throughout the manuscript and not limited to the above examples.

      Related to this issue, many of the comparisons which the authors interpret to show differences in behavior seem quite minor. For example, visual inspection suggests that the difference in loop strength shown in figure 1E is something like from 0 to 0.1 for K562 cells and a little less for KCT116 cells. What is a positive control here to give a sense of whether these minor changes are relevant. Another example is on p. 7, where the authors claim that CTCF partners of reactivated peaks tend to engage in a "greater number" of looping partners, but inspection of Figure 2A shows a very minor difference from maybe 7 to 7.5 partners. While a Mann-Whitney test may call this difference significant and give a significant P value, likely due to high sample number, it is questionable that this is a biologically relevant difference.

      We have amended the text to include actual values, instead of just qualitative statements. We have also moderated our claims in the text to note where effect sizes are more modest.

      The following literature examples can serve as positive controls for the effect sizes that we might expect when perturbing CTCF. Our observed effect sizes are largely in line with these expected magnitudes.

      https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8386078/ Fig. 2E

      https://www.cell.com/cell-reports/pdf/S2211-1247(23)01674-1.pdf Fig. 3J,K

      https://academic.oup.com/nar/article/52/18/10934/7740592 Fig. S5D (CTCF binding only).

      (2) The data to support the central claim of localization of reactivated loops to speckles is not overly convincing. The overlap with SON Cut&Tag (figure 2F) is partial at best and although it is better with the publicly available TSA-seq data, the latter is less sensitive than Cut&Tag and more difficult to interpret. It would be helpful to validate these data with FISH experiments to directly demonstrate and measure the association of loops with speckles (see below).

      A recent publication we co-authored validated the use of speckle (SON) Cut&Run using FISH (Yu et al, NSMB 2025, doi: 10.1038/s41594-024-01465-6). This paper also supports a role of CTCF in positioning DNA near speckles. Unfortunately, the resolution of these FISH probes is in the realm of hundreds of kilobases. This was not an issue for Yu et. al., as they were looking at large-scale effects of CTCF degradation on positioning near speckles. However, FISH does not provide the resolution we need to look at more localized changes over methylation-specific peak sites.

      Instead, we use Cut&Tag to look at these high-resolution changes. In Figure 3C, we show that SON localizes to DNMT1i-specific peaks only upon DNMT1 inhibition. We further demonstrate that this interaction is dependent on CTCF. In response to reviewer comments, we have now also performed spike-in normalized Cut&Tag upon acute (6 hr) SON degradation to validate that our signal is also directly dependent on SON and not merely due to a bias toward open chromatin.

      Author response image 1.

      TSA-seq has been validated with FISH (Chen et. al., doi: 10.1083/jcb.201807108), Alexander et. Al 10.1016/j.molcel.2021.03.006) Fig 6. We include TSA-seq data where possible in our manuscript to support our claims.

      We also note that Fig 2F shows all CTCF peaks and loops, not just methylation-sensitive peaks and loops, to give a sense of the data. We apologize for any confusion and have clarified this in the figure legend.

      (3) It is not clear that the authors have indeed disrupted speckles from cells by degrading SON and SRRM2. Speckles contain a large number of proteins and considering their phase separated nature stronger evidence for their complete removal is needed. Note that the data published in ref 58 suffers from the same caveat.

      Based upon the reviewers’ feedback, we generated Tranmission electron microscopy (TEM) data to visualize nuclear speckles +/- degradation of SON and SRRM2 (DMSO and dTAG). We were able to detect Interchromatin Granules Clusters (ICGs) that are representative of nuclear speckles in the DMSO condition. However, even at baseline, we observed a large degree of cell-to-cell variability in these structures. In addition, we also observe potential structural changes in the distribution of heterochromatin upon speckle degradation. Consequently, we hesitate to make quantitative conclusions regarding loss of these nuclear bodies. In the interest of transparency, we have included representative raw images from both conditions for the reviewers’ consideration.

      We also note that in Ref 58 (Ilik et. Al., https://doi.org/10.7554/eLife.60579), the authors show diffusion of speckle client proteins RBM25, SRRM1, and PNN upon SON and SRRM2 depletion, further supporting speckle dissociation in these conditions.

      Author response image 2.

      Author response image 3.

      (4) The authors ascribe a direct regulatory role to DNA methylation in controlling the association of some CTCF-mediated loops to speckles (p. 20). However, an active regulatory role of speckle association has not been demonstrated and the observed data are equally explainable by a more parsimonious model in which DNA methylation regulates gene expression via looping and that the association with speckles is merely an indirect bystander effect of the activated genes because we know that active genes are generally associated with speckles. The proposed mechanism of a regulatory role of DNA methylation in controlling speckle association is not convincingly demonstrated by the data. As a consequence, the title of the paper is also misleading.

      While it is difficult to completely rule out indirect effects, we do not believe that the relationship between methylation-sensitive CTCF sites and speckles relies only on gene activity.

      We can partially decouple SON Cut&Tag signal from gene activation if we break down Figure 4D to look only at methylation-sensitive CTCF peaks on genes whose expression is unchanged upon DNMT1 inhibition (using thresholds from manuscript, P-adj > 0.05 and/or |log2(fold-change)| < 0.5). This analysis shows that many methylation-sensitive CTCF peaks on genes with unchanged expression still change speckle association upon DNMT1 inhibition. This result refutes the necessity of transcriptional activation to recruit speckles to CTCF.

      Author response image 4.

      We note the comparator upregulated gene set here is small (~20 genes with our stringent threshold for methylation-sensitive CTCF after 1 day DNMT1i treatment).

      However, we acknowledge that these effects cannot be completely disentangled. We previously included the statement “other features enriched near speckles, such as open chromatin, high GC content, and active gene expression, could instead contribute to increased CTCF binding and looping near speckles” in the discussion. In response to the reviewer’s comment, we have further tempered our statements on page 20/21 and also added a statement noting that DNA demethylation and gene activation cannot be fully disentangled. While we are also open to a title change, we are unsure which part of the title is problematic. 

      (5) As a minor point, the authors imply on p. 15 that ablation of speckles leads to misregulation of genes by altering transcription. This is not shown as the authors only measure RNA abundance, which may be affected by depletion of constitutive splicing factors, but not transcription. The authors would need to show direct effects on transcription.

      We agree, and we have changed this wording to say RNA abundance.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      CTCF is one of the most well-characterized regulators of chromatin architecture in mammals. Given that CTCF is an essential protein, understanding how its binding is regulated is a very active area of research. It has been known for decades that CTCF is sensitive to 5-cystosine DNA methylation (5meC) in certain contexts. Moreover, at genomic imprints and in certain oncogenes, 5meC-mediated CTCF antagonism has very important gene regulatory implications. A number of labs (eg, Schubeler and Stamatoyannopoulos) have assessed the impact of DNA methylation on CTCF binding, but it is important to also interrogate the effect on chromatin organization (ie, looping). Here, Roseman and colleagues used a DNMT1 inhibitor in two established human cancer lines (HCT116 [colon] and K562 [leukemia]), and performed CTCF ChIPseq and HiChIP. They showed that "reactivated" CTCF sites-that is, bound in the absence of 5meC-are enriched in gene bodies, participate in many looping events, and intriguingly, appear associated with nuclear speckles. This last aspect suggests that these reactivated loops might play an important role in increased gene transcription. They showed a number of genes that are upregulated in the DNA hypomethylated state actually require CTCF binding, which is an important result.

      Strengths:

      Overall, I found the paper to be succinctly written and the data presented clearly. The relationship between CTCF binding in gene bodies and association with nuclear speckles is an interesting result. Another strong point of the paper was combining DNMT1 inhibition with CTCF degradation.

      Weaknesses:

      The most problematic aspect of this paper in my view is the insufficient evidence for the association of "reactivated" CTCF binding sites with nuclear speckles needs to be more diligently demonstrated (see Major Comment). One unfortunate aspect was that this paper neglected to discuss findings from our recent paper, wherein we also performed CTCF HiChIP in a DNA methylation mutant (Monteagudo-Sanchez et al., 2024 PMID: 39180406). It is true, this is a relatively recent publication, although the BioRxiv version has been available since fall 2023. I do not wish to accuse the authors of actively disregarding our study, but I do insist that they refer to it in a revised version. Moreover, there are a number of differences between the studies such that I find them more complementary rather than overlapping. To wit, the species (mouse vs human), the cell type (pluripotent vs human cancer), the use of a CTCF degron, and the conclusions of the paper (we did not make a link with nuclear speckles). Furthermore, we used a constitutive DNMT knockout which is not viable in most cell types (HCT116 cells being an exception), and in the discussion mentioned the advantage of using degron technology:

      "With high-resolution techniques, such as HiChIP or Micro-C (119-121), a degron system can be coupled with an assessment of the cis-regulatory interactome (118). Such techniques could be adapted for DNA methylation degrons (eg, DNMT1) in differentiated cell types in order to gauge the impact of 5meC on the 3D genome."

      The authors here used a DNMT1 inhibitor, which for intents and purposes, is akin to a DNMT1 degron, thus I was happy to see a study employ such a technique. A comparison between the findings from the two studies would strengthen the current manuscript, in addition to being more ethically responsible.

      We thank the reviewer for the helpful comments, which we address in the point-by-point response below. We sincerely apologize for this oversight in our references. We have included references to your paper in our revised manuscript. It is exciting to see these complementary results! We now include discussion of this work to contextualize the importance of methylation-sensitive CTCF sites and motivate our study.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      To address the above points, the authors should:

      (1) Provide quantitative information in the text on all comparisons and justify that the small differences observed, albeit statistically significant, are biologically relevant. Inclusion of positive controls to give an indication of what types of changes can be expected would be helpful.

      We have added quantitative information to the text, as discussed in the response to public comments above.  We also provide literature evidence of expected effect sizes in that response.

      (2) Provide FISH data to a) validate the analysis of comparing looping patterns with SON Cut&Tag data as an indicator of physical association of loops with speckles and b) demonstrate by FISH increased association of some of the CTCF-dependent loops/genes (cluster 2) with speckles upon DNMT1 inhibition.

      Please see response to Reviewer 1 comment #2 above. Unfortunately, FISH will not provide the resolution we need for point a). We have confidence in our use of TSA-seq and Cut&Tag to study SON association with CTCF sites on a genome-wide scale, which would not be possible with individual FISH probes. Specifically, since the submission of our manuscript several other researchers (Yu et al, Nat. Struct. and Mol. Biol. 2025, Gholamalamdari et al eLife 2025) have leveraged CUT&RUN/CUT&TAG and TSA-seq to map speckle associated chromatin and have validated these methods with orthogonal imaging based approaches.

      (3) Demonstrate loss of speckles upon SON or SRRM2 by probing for other speckle components and ideally analysis by electron microscopy which should show loss of interchromatin granules.  

      We have performed TEM in K562 cells +/- SON/SRRM2 degradation. Please see response to Reviewer 1 comment #3. Specifically, interchromatin granule clusters are visible in the TEM images of the DMSO sample (see highlighted example above), however, given the heterogeneity of these structures and potential global alterations in heterochromatin that may be occurring following speckle loss, we refrained from making quantitative conclusions from this data. We instead include the raw images above.

      (4) The authors should either perform experiments to clearly show whether loop association is transcription dependent or whether association is merely a consequence of gene activation. Alternatively, they should tone down their model ascribing a direct regulatory role of methylation in control of loop association with speckles and also discuss other models. Unless the model is more clearly demonstrated, the title of the paper should be changed to reflect the uncertainty of the central conclusion.

      Please see response to Reviewer 1 comment #4 above.

      (5) The authors should either probe directly for the effect of speckle ablation on transcription or change their wording.

      We have changed our wording to RNA abundance.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Major:

      ⁃ There was no DNA methylation analysis after inhibitor treatment. Ideally, genome bisulfite sequencing should be performed to show that the DNMT1i-specific CTCF binding sites are indeed unmethylated. But at the very least, a quantitative method should be employed to show the extent to which 5meC levels decrease in the presence of the DNMT1 inhibitor

      Response: We have now included analysis of genome wide bisulfite information from LIMe-Hi-C (bisulfite Hi-C) in K562 following DNMT1i inhibition. Specifically, we leverage the CpG methylation readout and find that DNTM1i-specific CTCF sites are more methylated than non-responsive CTCF peaks at baseline. In addition, these sites show the greatest decrease in CpG methylation upon 3 days of DNMT1 inhibition. We include a figure detailing these analyses in the supplement (Fig S1E). In addition, we have added CpG methylation genome browser tracks to (Fig S1D). In terms of global change, we have found that 3 days of DNMT1 inhibitor treatment leads to a reduction in methylation to about ~1/4 the level at baseline.

      I am not convinced that CUT&Tag is the proper technique to assess SON binding. CUT&Tag only works under stringent conditions (high salt), and can be a problematic assay for non-histone proteins, which bind less well to chromatin. In our experience, even strong binders such as CTCF exhibit a depleted binding profile when compared to ChIP seq data. I would need to be strongly convinced that the analysis presented in figures 2F-J and S2 D-I simply do not represent ATAC signal (ie, default Tn5 activity). For example, SON ChIP Seq, CUT&Tag in the SON degron and/or ATAC seq could be performed. What worries me is that increased chromatin accessibility would also be associated with increased looping, so they have generated artifactual results that are consistent with their model.

      As the reviewer suggested, we have now performed spike-in normalized SON Cut&Tag with DNMT1 inhibition and 6 hours of SON/SRRM2 degradation in our speckle dTAG knockin cell line. These experiments confirm that the SON Cut&Tag signal we see is SON-dependent. If the signal was truly due to artifactual binding, gained peaks would be open irrespective of speckle binding, however we see a clear speckle dependence as this signal is much lower if SON is degraded.

      Author response image 5.

      Moreover, in our original Cut&Tag experiments, we did not enrich detectable DNA without using the SON antibody (see last 4 samples-IgG controls). This further suggests that our signal is SON-dependent.

      Author response image 6.

      Finally, we see good agreement between Cut&Tag and TSA-seq (Spearman R=0.82).  The agreement is particularly strong in the top quadrant, which is most relevant since this is where the non-zero signal is.

      Author response image 7.

      Minor points

      ⁃ Why are HCT116 cells more responsive to treatment than K562 cells? This is something that could be addressed with DNA methylation analysis, for example

      K562 is a broadly hypomethylated cell line (Siegenfeld et.al, 2022 https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-022-31857-5 Fig S2A-C). Thus, there may be less dynamic range to lose methylation compared to HCT116.

      Our results are also consistent with previous results comparing DKO HCT116 and aza-treated K562 cells (Maurano 2015, http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.celrep.2015.07.024). They state “In K562 cells, 5-aza-CdR treatment resulted in weaker reactivation than in DKO cells…”  In addition, cell-type-specific responsiveness to DNA methyltransferase KO depending upon global CpG methylation levels, has also been observed in ES and EpiLC cells (Monteagudo-Sanchez et al., 2024), which we now comment on in the manuscript.

      ⁃ How many significant CTCF loops in DNMTi, compared to DMSO? It was unclear what the difference in raw totals is.

      We now include a supplemental table with the HiChIP loop information. We call similar numbers of raw loops comparing DNMT1i and DMSO, as only a small subset of loops is changing.

      ⁃ For the architectural stripes, it would be nice to see a representative example in the form of a contact plot. Is that possible to do with the hiChIP data?

      As described in our methods, we called architectural stripes using Stripenn (Yoon et al 2022) from LIMe-Hi-C data under DNMT1i conditions (Siegenfeld et al, 2022). Shown below is a representative example of a stripe in the form of a Hi-C contact map.

      Author response image 8.

      ⁃ Here 4-10x more DNMT1i-specific CTCF binding sites were observed than we saw in our study. What are thresholds? Could the thresholds for DNMT1i-specific peaks be defined more clearly? For what it's worth, we defined our DNMT KO-specific peaks as fold-change {greater than or equal to} 2, adjusted P< 0.05. The scatterplots (1B) indicate a lot of "small" peaks being called "reactivated."

      We called DNMT1i-specific peaks using HOMER getDifferentialPeaksReplicates function. We used foldchange >2 and padj <0.05. We further restricted these peaks to those that were not called in the DMSO condition. 

      ⁃ On this note, is "reactivated" the proper term? Reactivated with regards to what? A prior cell state? I think DNMT1i-specific is a safer descriptor.

      We chose this term based on prior literature (Maurano 2015 http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.celrep.2015.07.024, Spracklin 2023 https://doi.org/10.1038/s41594-022-00892-7) . However, we agree it is not very clear, so we’ve altered the text to say “DNMT1i-specific”. We thank the reviewer for suggesting this improved terminology.

      ⁃ It appears there is a relatively small enrichment for CTCF peaks (of any class) in intergenic regions. How were intergenic regions defined? For us, it is virtually half of the genome. We did some enrichment of DNMT KO-specific peaks in gene bodies (our Supplemental Figure 1C), but a substantial proportion were still intergenic.

      We defined intergenic peaks using HOMER’s annotatepeaks function, with the -gtf option using Ensembl gene annotations (v104). We used the standard annotatepeaks priority order, which is TSS > TTS> CDS Exons > 5’UTR exons >3’ UTR exons > Introns > Intergenic.

      Maurano et. al. 2015 (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.celrep.2015.07.024) also found reduced representation of intergenic sites among demethylation-reactivated CTCF sites in their Fig S5A. We note this is not a perfect comparison because their data is displayed as a fraction of all intergenic peaks.

      ⁃ We also recently published a review on this subject: The impact of DNA methylation on CTCF-mediated 3D genome organization NSMB 2024 (PMID: 38499830) which could be cited if the authors choose.

      We have cited this relevant review.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Prior research indicates that NaV1.2 and NaV1.6 have different compartmental distributions, expression timelines in development, and roles in neuron function. The lack of subtype-specific tools to control Nav1.2 and Nav1.6 activity however has hampered efforts to define the role of each channel in neuronal behavior. The authors attempt to address the problem of subtype specificity here by using aryl sulfonamides (ASCs) to stabilize channels in the inactivated state in combination with mice carrying a mutation that renders NaV1.2 and/or NaV1.6 genetically resistant to the drug. Using this innovative approach, the authors find that action potential initiation is controlled by NaV1.6 while both NaV1.2 and NaV1.6 are involved in backpropagation of the action potential to the soma, corroborating previous findings. Additionally, NaV1.2 inhibition paradoxically increases the firing rate, as has also been observed in genetic knockout models. Finally, the potential anticonvulsant properties of ASCs were tested. NaV1.6 inhibition but not NaV1.2 inhibition was found to decrease action potential firing in prefrontal cortex layer 5b pyramidal neurons in response to current injections designed to mimic inputs during seizure. This result is consistent with studies of loss-of-function Nav1.6 models and knockdown studies showing that these animals are resistant to certain seizure types. These results lend further support for the therapeutic promise of activity-dependent, NaV1.6-selective, inhibitors for epilepsy.

      Strengths:

      (1) The chemogenetic approaches used to achieve selective inhibition of NaV1.2 and NaV1.6 are innovative and help resolve long-standing questions regarding the role of Nav1.2 and Nav1.6 in neuronal electrogenesis.

      (2) The experimental design is overall rigorous, with appropriate controls included.

      (3) The assays to elucidate the effects of channel inactivation on typical and seizure-like activity were well selected.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The potential impact of the YW->SR mutation in the voltage sensor does not appear to have been sufficiently assessed. The activation/inactivation curves in Figure 1E show differences in both activation and inactivation at physiologically relevant membrane voltages, which may be significant even though the V1/2 and slope factors are roughly similar.

      We have performed new experiments testing how YW->SR mutations affect spiking on their own. The reviewer’s intuition was correct; the small changes in voltage-dependence in NaV1.6 identified in heterologous expression systems translated into a ~2 mV hyperpolarization in threshold in neurons.

      (2) Additional discussion of the fact that channels are only partially blocked by the ASC and that ASCs act in a use-dependent manner would improve the manuscript and help readers interpret these results.

      We have updated text extensively to address this concern. Details are found in the author suggestions below.

      (3) NaV1.6 was described as being exclusively responsible for the change in action potential threshold, but when NaV1.6 alone was inactivated, the effect was significantly reduced from the condition in which both channels were inactivated (Figure 4E). Similarly, Figure 6C shows that blockade of both channels causes threshold depolarization prior to the seizure-like event, but selective inactivation of NaV1.6 does not. As NaV1.2 does not appear to be involved in action potential initiation and threshold change, what is the mechanism of this dissimilarity between the NaV1.6 inactivation and combined NaV1.6/ NaV1.2 inactivation?

      We believe the dissimilarity is due to interactions between NaV1.2 and other channel classes (e.g., potassium channels) throughout the cell, including the somatodendritic domain. NaV1.6 that initiates APs, localized to the AIS, do not live in isolation, and AP threshold can be affected by the recent membrane potential history. Loss of NaV1.2-mediated depolarization in the dendrites begets less potassium channel-mediated repolarization, as described in Figure 4.

      (4) The idea that use-dependent VGSC-acting drugs may be effective antiseizure medications is well established. Additional discussion or at least acknowledgement of the existing, widely used, use-dependent VGSC drugs should be included (e.g. Carbamazepine, Lamotrigine, Phenytoin). Also, the idea that targeting NaV1.6 may be effective for seizures is established by studies using genetic models, knockdown, and partially selective pharmacology (e.g. NBI-921352). Additional discussion of how the results reported here are consistent with or differ from studies using these alternative approaches would improve the discussion

      We agree; the concept of use-dependent block as a means to treat seizure is not new, and we have updated the discussion to include commentary on other medications currently in use. What is new here is our ability to explore the role of NaV1.2 and NaV1.6 in electrogenesis with a level of drug selectivity that could not be achieved without the addition of the YW->SR mutations. This approach in itself will not be useful in the clinic, but it may help guide drug design in the future. One major interpretation of this work is that NaV1.6 block is more effective than NaV1.2 block in general, and may even be effective for non-SCN8A genetic conditions. This is indeed one of the reasons that we believe that drugs like NBI-921352, itself an aryl-sulfonamide, is being tested in seizure models.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      The authors used a clever and powerful approach to explore how Nav1.2 and Nav1.6 channels, which are both present in neocortical pyramidal neurons, differentially control firing properties of the neurons. Overall, the approach worked very well, and the results show very interesting differences when one or the other channel is partially inhibited. The experimental data is solid and the experimental data is very nicely complemented by a computational model incorporating the different localization of the two types of sodium channels.

      In my opinion the presentation and interpretation of the results could be improved by a more thorough discussion of the fact that only incomplete inhibition of the channels can be achieved by the inhibitor under physiological recording conditions and I thought the paper could be easier to digest if the figures were re-organized. However, the key results are well-documented.

      This is a concern raised by multiple reviewers, and we thank you all for your help in improving the way in which we discuss the results. We have revised the manuscript extensively, moving figures around per your advice and the advice of R1 in their comments to authors.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors used powerful and novel reagents to carefully assess the roles of the voltage gated sodium channel (NaV) isoforms in regulating the neural excitability of principal neurons of the cerebral cortex. Using this approach, they were able to confirm that two different isoforms, NaV1.2 and NaV1.6 have distinct roles in electrogenesis of neocortical pyramidal neurons.

      Strengths:

      Development of very powerful transgenic mice in which NaV1.2 and/or NaV1.6 were modified to be insensitive to ASCs, a particular class of NaV blocker. This allowed them to test for roles of the two isoforms in an acute setting, without concerns of genetic or functional compensation that might result from a NaV channel knockout.

      Careful biophysical analysis of ASC effects on different NaV isoforms.

      Extensive and rigorous analysis of electrogenesis - action potential production - under conditions of blockade of either NaV1.2 or NaV1 or both.

      Weaknesses:

      Some results are overstated in that the representative example records provided do not directly support the conclusions.

      We have swapped out example records to better capture the median effect observed and to better capture our discussion of these results. Please see below, in recommendations for authors, for details.

      Results from a computational model are provided to make predictions of outcomes, but the computational approach is highly underdeveloped.

      Modeling has been elaborated upon extensively, with more detail in methods, a new sensitivity analysis supplemental figure, and a deposition into ModelDB.  Please see below, in recommendations for authors, for details.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Regarding the concern about the potential impact of the YWàSR mutation: All results in Figures 2-6 report only within-subject changes before and after drug-activating protocols. These results show that the drug has no effect on the mutant channel, but whether the mutant channel itself has any effect on neuronal properties is not clear. This deficiency could be rectified by reporting raw values for AP threshold, spike rate, etc. in the pre-drug condition and statistically analyzing the apparent differences in the activation/inactivation curves.

      Data in our original submission only included data in the presence of GNE-4076. We now present new data showing how the YWàSR mutation affects baseline activity of neurons. These data are in Supplemental Figure 1. Compared to wildtype (no drug control) neurons, we observe no change in peak dV/dt. However, threshold is hyperpolarized by approximately 2 mV in dual knockin neurons (median values: -57.4 mV for dual knockin and -55 mV for wildtype). This is consistent with measures from heterologously expressed channels, where we observed somewhat subtle shifts in voltage-dependence of inactivation and activation in NaV1.6 as a result of YWàSR incorporation. 

      In addition to these data, we also include the baseline dataset from Figure 3, where GNE-4076 is present throughout recording, and report that neither threshold nor peak dV/dt are influenced by the presence of GNE at baseline. This suggests that any drug binding at baseline (i.e., before firing APs via somatic current injection) is negligible, consistent with the concept that GNE-4076 has low affinity for the closed channel state.

      Minor Comments:

      While the single-cell response to "seizure-like" input aptly demonstrates the change in action potential threshold and firing rate induced by NaV1.6 inhibition, this component of the paper could be enhanced by a network-level assay that assesses the impact of this drug on an actual seizure-like event in acute slices or on seizure susceptibility in vivo.

      This is an excellent thought, and the work near the end of this manuscript is an effort to mimic network-like activity in a controlled way in single cells. To expand this to bona fide seizure-like activity in acute slices or in vivo is something that we are considering for future studies. To do this properly requires extensive validation of dosing and seizure induction that will require several years’ effort.

      Fig 1e caption says "circles" but the markers are squares

      This has been corrected, thank you for catching it.

      Color scheme in S2B is not intuitive to me

      We’ve now updated the caption to better describe the color scheme used within.

      Fig S2: graph or show change in threshold

      Empirical threshold data are in main figure 3D. Changes in threshold related to modeling are now included in a new sensitivity analysis that is in a new Supplemental Figure 2.

      Fig 3A example of NaV1.6 inhibition does not show change in AP threshold apparent in the aggregate data

      We have updated the representative example to better illustrate the change in AP threshold for NaV1.6 inhibition.

      "AP initiation is mediated exclusively by NaV1.6" not corroborated by data; APs still occur when NaV1.6 is inhibited

      This was an over-interpretation of our data, indeed. We have updated the language to be more accurate to the following: “AP threshold and AP initiation appears to be initiated in an NaV1.6-rich region in control conditions; when NaV1.6 is inhibited, APs can occur at more depolarized potentials, likely mediated predominately by NaV1.2.”

      Fig S3C missing WT/Scn8aSR/SR significance marking. Chosen example makes it look like there is a small decrease.

      Please note that there is no difference between these two conditions when in delta dV/dt for AIS inflection point (p = 0.4344).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      This manuscript presents a clever and powerful approach to examining differential roles of Nav1.2 and Nav1.6 channels in excitability of pyramidal cell excitability, by engineering mice in which a sulfonamide inhibitor of both channels has reduced affinity for one or the other. Overall, the results in the manuscript are interesting and give important information about differential roles of Nav1.6 and Nav1.2 channels.

      The paper makes an important contribution to better understanding distinct roles of Nav1.2 and Nav1.6 channels. This improved understanding could help guide design of anti-seizure drugs targeted to sodium channels.

      Having made it clear that I think this is an important and impressive piece of work for which the authors should be congratulated, I found reading and interpreting the manuscript a frustrating experience. I will be blunt about the ways in which I found the presentation and discussion to be frustrating and even annoying, in the spirit of frank feedback by one interested and appreciative reader that the authors can consider or reject as they wish.

      From the start, I had the feeling that the authors were presenting and discussing the results in a sanitized "never-mind-about the details" fashion such as might be appropriate for a seminar to a general audience not interested in details, but not appropriate for a research paper.

      Our intent certainly was not to frustrate or annoy readers. We are very grateful that you have provided these comments, which have certainly improved the manuscript, hopefully mitigating some of the frustration for future readers. We appreciate that there are complex drug and voltage effects occurring within these studies, and in an effort to distill these effects into digestible prose, we appear to have been too earnest. We have expanded on the requested topics below and please note that, for the aficionados, every figure displays individual data. Further, we have made a special effort to ensure that features of excitability are presented throughout the drug and manipulation timecourse, including time-points before and after periods subject to statistical comparison, so that the reader may draw their own conclusions.

      General:

      There were two major ways in which I found the presentation and discussion frustrating and even annoying: First, not clearly discussing early in the presentation the fact that it is impossible to achieve complete inhibition with this agent during measurements of physiological firing and second, presenting so much of the effects as deltas of various parameters rather than showing effects on absolute values of the parameters.

      Our response to the first issue will follow the next comment, as it relates to this statement. Regarding use of deltas and absolute values for changes in threshold and dV/dt across figures. Every cell has a unique AP threshold and peak dV/dt, and we found that displaying data zeroed to baseline values best illustrated the effects of GNE-4076. Without this, GNE-based effect could be buried within the cell-to-cell variability. This helped most when trying to make the case that threshold was unaffected in 2a/8a YWàSR knockin animals. We continue to believe that this is the best way to display the data in the primary figures, but to provide a more complete account, we now present absolute values in supplemental tables and supplemental figures.

      The first issue, the incomplete inhibition by the agent, was the most annoying because the authors obviously thought a lot about this and even closed the paper by proposing this as a positive feature of this class of inhibitors, yet discussed it only piecemeal - and with most of the key experimental data in the Supplement. There are two fundamental characteristics of this (and other) sulfonamide inhibitors that complicate interpretation of experiments, especially when applied in a slice experiment: they only bind to the channel when the channel is depolarized, and even when the channel is depolarized for many seconds, bind very slowly to the channel.

      That makes it almost impossible to know exactly what fraction of channels is being inhibited during measurements of firing. Obviously, the authors are well-aware of this issue and they allude to it and even make use of it in some of the protocols, but they never really discuss it in a very clear manner.

      We agree that it is impossible to know the precise fraction of channels inhibited in acute slice preparations. But the reason for this is likely different than what has been interpreted by this reviewer. To state that ASMs “only bind to the channel when the channel is depolarized, and even when the channel is depolarized for many seconds, bind very slowly to the channel.” is not consistent with prior data on ASM–channel interactions. Clarification on these points may help the reviewer and a broader audience better understand the effects occurring here, and we appreciate being able to both address this concept here and by revising the manuscript.

      First, ASMs bind activated channels and stabilize the inactivated state. It is correct that channels are more likely to enter these states when subject to voltage depolarization, but channel state is stochastic and can enter activated states near resting membrane potentials. The on-rate is fast enough that channels are blocked immediately in recordings in heterologous systems (Figure 1C). It is more likely that channel biophysical state stochasticity, along with drug concentration used herein, are likely dictating the rate at which channels accumulate block during repetitive spiking.

      To address this in text, we have revised the 3rd paragraph of the introduction to better incorporate these ideas. This also helps with comments in the reviewer paragraph below.

      The key experimental data on this is relegated to the Supplemental Figures. When the reader is first shown results of the effects of the inhibitor on firing in Fig 2, the presentation has been set up as if everything is perfect, and the inhibitor will be completely inhibiting either both or only one channel according to the mouse. With this presentation, it is then exceptionally striking that the cell in the middle panel of Fig 2A, labeled "Nav1.2/1.6 Inhibited" is firing action potentials very nicely even with both channels "inhibited". For a reader not already aware that there is likely only partial inhibition of each channel, the reaction will be "Huh? Shouldn't blocking both channels simply completely block excitability?". The authors do preface Fig 2 by a very brief allusion to the incomplete inhibition: "In spiking neurons, ASCs would therefore be predicted to exhibit use-dependence, progressively blocking channels in proportion to a neuron's activity rate" but this comes out of nowhere after the over-simplified picture of complete inhibition up to that point, and without any estimation of how much inhibition there is likely to be before activity, or how much induction of inhibition there is likely to be during the activity. Without this, interpreting the data in Fig 2 is basically impossible.

      The key experimental data on this issue is really in Supplemental Figures 1-2 and Fig 4, and I found myself immediately ping-ponging back and forth between the Supplemental figures and the main text trying to understand what is going on with the partial inhibition. This was frustrating.

      Thank you for these suggestions; they help with readability appreciably. We have re-organized the figures presented in the manuscript and emphasized details about ASCs to ensure readers can discern between near-complete blockade of channels (Figures 1-4) and activity-dependent ASC onboarding (Figures 5-7). We now present near-complete block experiments first, detailing the current clamp-> voltage clamp (-12 mV)-> current clamp experiments. We incorporated Supp. Fig. 1 into main Figure 1 and moved Supp. Fig. 2 into main Fig. 2.

      As the reviewer notes, there are clear time-dependent effects on channel function when stepping to -12 mV, independent of GNE-4076 block. As stated previously, “We therefore focused on the 12-20 sec after voltage-clamp offset for subsequent analysis, as it is a period in which most channel-intrinsic recovery has occurred, but also a period in which we would still expect significant block from GNE-4076.” We hope that reordering the manuscript as suggested and placing these results near the beginning will help with discerning between near-complete block and activity depending onboarding. By beginning with these experiments, which underscore that 100% block cannot be studied without “contamination” from native slow inactivation, we hope that the readers can better understand why data was done as presented.

      In my opinion, the paper would be greatly improved by a detailed discussion of the voltage- and time-dependence of the inhibitor at the very beginning of the paper. For me, reading and digesting the paper would have been far easier if Fig 1 included a discussion of the voltage- and time-dependence of inhibition, and next Figs were then Supplemental Figs 1-2, and main Fig 4. The key questions are: how much inhibition is there before a 10-s current injection from the resting potential, and how much additional inhibition is there produced during either the 10-s bout of firing or the "on-boarding" depolarization protocol, and how long does that additional inhibition last? The most direct information on that is in the plots in Fig. 4D and Fig 4F in combination with Supplemental Fig 1, which shows that the on-boarding depolarization reduces current to about 30% of current before on-boarding. This is so central to the interpretation of all the results that I think Supp Fig 1 should be in the main paper as the first piece of data in neurons.

      We originally had the nucleated patch data in supplement due to space constraints in an already large figure 1. Based on your recommendation we have moved it to the main figure. We have also changed the ordering of the paper and related figures to present data as suggested. Hopefully this better guides readers through the questions you are raising above, which are addressed in the (now reordered) figures mentioned above.

      Specific:

      (1) Fig.1 I can find no information on the voltage protocol used to generate the dose-response curves. In the literature characterizing sulfonamide blockers, most protocols use very unphysiological strong, long depolarization to induce inhibition, usually with equally unphysiological short hyperpolarizations to produce recovery from inactivation. One assumes something like that was used here. Obviously, the protocol needs to be explained.

      We updated the methods section to better describe the voltage protocol used to generate the dose response curves. In contrast to the literature characterizing sulfonamide blockers, we used pulses that closely mimic physiological activation from -80 mV (rest) to 0 mV (depolarized) for 20 msec. GNE-4076 was perfused onto cells at increasing concentrations throughout the experiment. At each successive dose, cells were held at 0 mV to allow adequate GNE-4076 onboarding.

      (2) Supp Fig1. This shows the effect of depolarization to enhance inhibition, but not how much inhibition there was before the depolarization. Presumably, there were measurements during the application of drug? How much inhibition is there before the depolarization? Why does the time only go to 20-s, when the times in Figs 4 go to 10 minutes?

      Nucleated patch recordings are notoriously difficult to maintain for long durations, especially when subjecting the patch to large voltage deflections. These recordings extend to 20s recovery periods because that is the duration for which we maintained all recordings, though some exhibited rather impressive longevity and allowed for several minutes of recording thereafter. Regardless, the goal here was to assess block within the 12-20 sec recovery window we utilized in current clamp recordings from intact neurons. This was achieved.

      Please note that GNE-4076 was present throughout all recordings. This was in part due to time constraints, as we could not maintain patches long enough to also perform wash-in. The degree of inhibition can be inferred by comparing peak dV/dt and threshold of cells in the absence and presence of GNE-4076. These data are presented in a new Supplemental figure 1, showing no difference in threshold or peak dV/dt.

      (3) Fig. 4. Similar question here - this is a very nice and informative figure, but we see only the delta in threshold and dv/dt, but how were the initial absolute values different in the drug compared to control?

      These data are presented in a new Supplemental Figure 1, showing no difference in threshold or peak dV/dt.

      (4) Fig 2. As far as I can tell, we have no idea how much inhibition there is at rest, before the current injection -what is the dv/dt in the drug compared to in the control? Were there experiments in which the current injections were delivered before and after applying drug? If not, at least it would be useful to see population data on dv/dt of the first spike in control and with drug.

      These data are presented in a new Supplemental Figure 1, showing no difference in threshold or peak dV/dt.

      (5). Fig. 2. Do the authors have any quantitative information on how much extra inhibition would be produced at 200 nM drug using physiological waveforms of firing?

      These types of analyses are part of later figures using EPSC-like waveforms to evoke spiking.

      I was unconvinced that the changes in threshold and dv/dt during the firing in the drug necessarily represent time-dependent use-dependent effects of drug. Partial inhibition by TTX would probably produce greater progressive changes in spike shape and reduced ability to fire robustly.

      TTX is not use-dependent, so it is a good contrast to GNE-4076. We experimented with a few cells at 2 and 10 nM TTX concentrations and found that concentrations required to mimic the block of spiking that occurs with 200 nM GNE-4076 in WT cells was associated with a marked use-independent elevation in AP threshold, with an inability to maintain ~10 Hz spiking rates with the baseline EPSC-like stimulation pattern. These effects are very different from those produced by GNE-4076, but were expected given the use-independence of TTX. We did not pursue this line of inquiry fully, so we present these data only as individual examples in the reviewer figure below:

      Author response image 1.

      Data from Figure 6B, D, E are replicated here with individual lines of 2 nM and 10 nM TTX shown in dashed lines. Note marked changes in threshold not observed with GNE-4076. TTX sourced from Alomone Labs.

      Minor:

      p. 5 and elsewhere: it seems unnecessary to give values of threshold and dv/dt to three decimal places, especially when the precision is not better than a single decimal place.

      We have reduced unnecessary precision throughout.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The computational model is highly underdeveloped. Without more rigorous development the results of the computational model appear to provides little additional insight beyond that expected from the known axodendritic localizations of NaV 1.2 and 1.6. If the authors wish to use the computational results to make rigorous predictions, then this section needs to be either be expanded to be more complete and promoted to a regular figure, with full details of the model, and how it was evaluated for accuracy. Alternatively, this point regarding computational insight could be de-emphasized and or removed from the paper.

      Modeling:

      (1) I don't see any methods describing the precise model parameters that were used.

      Apologies, this is a model that we have built and tested extensively over the years (PMID: 38290518, 35417922, 34348157, 31995133, 31230762, 28256214), though there have been some small updates over these works. We have deposited this model at ModelDB and provide data there regarding model construction (access #2019342).

      (2) There appears to be no robustness test to assess whether the particular results/conclusions were unduly dependent on particular model construction decisions.

      We have now generated a new supplemental figure 2 that explores the robustness of these observations to changes in NaV1.2 and NaV1.6 position within the AIS and changes in relative density of NaV1.2 and NaV1.6. As shown there, the model is tolerant to all but extreme, non-physiological manipulations to these parameters.

      (3) Figure S2 does not really provide convincing evidence of a biologically relevant model. Probably the model itself needs to be redesigned to better replicate the biological response and be validated by testing parameter sensitivity.

      a) All of the results in S2C show that there is a huge reduction in the first action potential (black?) followed by relatively little change in subsequent spikes. This is not seen in any of the models. The progressive changes in threshold as predicted by the model for dual and NaV1.6 block are not at all evident in the results of C, except perhaps for the the very first and the very last spikes.

      b) The baseline action potential in B is different than the recorded action potentials. In particular, the somatic depolarization occurs much later and over a more extended time frame than the real neuron, and the phase plot shows an actual dip in depolarization at the transition to the somatic spike, which is not representative of naturally occurring action potentials.

      To address both (a) and (b), please note that in empirical experiments there are two parallel processes occurring: block by GNE-4076 and channel recovery from inactivation. In the model we can isolate the effects of block to test that parameter fully and in isolation. This is something that we could never achieve biologically. The important take home here in both cases is to observe that with NaV1.6 block there is a change in threshold, whereas with NaV1.2 block there is none.

      (4) The one finding that seems to be robust is that the changes in NaV1.2 have little effect on threshold.

      Yes! This is a major take-home message from both the model and the use of these knockin mice in combination with GNE-4076. In mature pyramidal cells, NaV1.6 is the major determinant of AP threshold. And to editorialize on this observation, changes in threshold are a useful metric to test if other pharmacology are truly selective for NaV1.2 over NaV1.6. We note that phrixotoxin-3, which is described as NaV1.2 specific in multiple papers, was never tested for specificity over NaV1.6 in its original description, and we find that it fails this test in our hands.

      Data presentation:

      (1) The phase plots in Figure 3B (left and right) appear to be visually identical, and as such don't strongly support any particular conclusion.

      We changed the representative example record (specifically for Fig. 3A-B) to more directly support the conclusions.

      (2) It is unclear to me what is meant by AP speed (title of Figure 3 legend). Do the authors mean propagation speed along the axon, or perhaps the rate of action potential firing?

      Apologies, we are referencing dV/dt when we mention AP speed. We updated AP speed to AP velocity throughout the manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We thank the reviewers and editor for their positive view and constructive valuable comments on the manuscript.  Following we address the suggestions of the reviewers.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      (1) It will be interesting to monitor the levels of another MIM insertase namely, OXA1. This will help to understand whether some of the observed changes in levels of OXPHOS subunits are related to alterations in the amounts of this insertase.

      OXA1 was not detected in the untargeted mass spectrometry analysis, most likely due to the fact that it is a polytopic membrane protein, spanning the membrane five times (1,2). Consequently, we measured OXA1 levels with immunoblotting, comparing patient fibroblast cells to the HC. No significant change in OXA1 steady state levels was observed.

      These results are now displayed (Fig. S3B and C) and discussed in the revised manuscript.

      Figure 3: How do the authors explain that although TIMM17 and TIMM23 were found to be significantly reduced by Western analysis they were not detected as such by the Mass Spec. method?

      The untargeted mass spectrometry in the current study failed to detect the presence of TIMM17 for both, patient fibroblasts and mice neurons, while TIMM23 was detected only for mice neurons and a decrease was observed for this protein but was not significant. This is most likely due to the fact that TIMM17 and TIMM23 are both polytopic membrane proteins, spanning the membrane four times, which makes it difficult to extract them in quantities suitable for MS detection (2,3).

      (2) How do the authors explain the higher levels of some proteins in the TIMM50 mutated cells?

      The levels of fully functional TIM23 complex are deceased in patients' fibroblasts. Therefore, the mechanism by which the steady state level of some TIM23 substrate proteins is increased, can only be explained relying on events that occur outside the mitochondria. This could include increase in transcription, translation or post translation modifications, all of which may increase their steady state level albite the decrease in the steady state level of the import complex.

      (3) Can the authors elaborate on why mutated cells are impaired in their ability to switch their energetic emphasis to glycolysis when needed?

      Cellular regulation of the metabolic switch to glycolysis occurs via two known pathways: 1) Activation of AMP-activated protein kinase (AMPK) by increased levels of AMP/ADP (4). 2) Inhibition of pyruvate dehydrogenase (PDH) complexes by pyruvate dehydrogenase kinases (PDK) (5). Therefore, changes in the steady state levels of any of these regulators could push the cells towards anaerobic energy production, when needed. In our model systems, we did not observe changes in any of the AMPK, PDH or PDK subunits that were detected in our untargeted mass spectrometry analysis (see volcano plots below, no PDK subunits were detected in patient fibroblasts). Although this doesn’t directly explain why the cells have an impaired ability to switch their energetic emphasis, it does possibly explain why the switch did not occur de facto.

      Author response image 1.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      (1) The authors claim in the abstract, the introduction, and the discussion that TIMM50 and the TIM23 translocase might not be relevant for mitochondrial protein import in mammals. This is misleading and certainly wrong!!!

      Indeed, it was not in our intention to claim that the TIM23 complex might not be relevant. We have now rewritten the relevant parts to convey the correct message:

      Abstract –

      Line 25 - “Strikingly, TIMM50 deficiency had no impact on the steady state levels of most of its putative substrates, suggesting that even low levels of a functional TIM23 complex are sufficient to maintain the majority of complex-dependent mitochondrial proteome.”

      Introduction –

      Line 87 - Surprisingly, functional and physiological analysis points to the possibility that low levels of TIM23 complex core subunits (TIMM50, TIMM17 and TIMM23) are sufficient for maintaining steady-state levels of most presequence-containing proteins. However, the reduced TIM23CORE component levels do affect some critical mitochondrial properties and neuronal activity.

      Discussion –

      Line 339 – “…surprising, as normal TIM23 complex levels are suggested to be indispensable for the translocation of presequence-containing mitochondrial proteins…”

      Line 344 – “…it is possible that unlike what occurs in yeast, normal levels of mammalian TIMM50 and TIM23 complex are mainly essential for maintaining the steady state levels of intricate complexes/assemblies.”

      Line 396 – “In summary, our results suggest that even low levels of TIMM50 and TIM23CORE components suffice in maintaining the majority of mitochondrial matrix and inner membrane proteome. Nevertheless, reductions in TIMM50 levels led to a decrease of many OXPHOS and MRP complex subunits, which indicates that normal TIMM50 levels might be mainly essential for maintaining the steady state levels and assembly of intricate complex proteins.”

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Lines 25-26: The authors write "Strikingly, TIMM50 deficiency had no impact on the steady state levels of most of its substrates". Since the current data challenges the definition of some proteins as substrates of TIMM50, I suggest using the term "putative substrates".

      Changed as suggested

      (2) Line 27: It is not clear whether the wording "general import role of TIM23" it refers to the TIM23 protein or the TIM23 complex. This should be clarified.

      Clarified. It now states "TIM23 complex".

      (3) Line 72: should be "and plays".

      Changed as suggested.

      (4) It will be helpful to include in Figure 1 a small scheme of TIMM50 and to indicate in which domain the T252M mutation is located.

      We predicted the AlphaFold human TIMM50 structure and indicated the mutation site and the different TIMM50 domains. The structure is included in Fig. 1A.

      (5) I suggest labelling the "Y" axis in Fig. 1B as "Protein level (% of control)".

      Changed as suggested in Fig. 1C (previously Fig. 1B) and in Fig. 2C.

      (6) Line 179: since the authors tested here only about 10 mitochondrial proteins (out of 1500), I think that the word "many" should be replaced by "several representative" resulting in "steady state levels of several representative mitochondrial proteins".

      Changed as requested.

      (7) Line 208: correct typo.

      Typo was corrected.

      (8) Figure 4 is partially redundant as its data is part of Figure 3. The authors can consider combining these two figures. Accordingly, large parts of the legend of Figure 4 are repeating information in the legend to Figure 3 and can refer to it.

      We revamped Figures 3 and 4. Figure 3 now shows the analysis of fibroblasts proteomics while Figure 4 focuses on neurons proteomics. We also modified the legend of Figure 4.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Abstract: 'Strikingly, TIMM50 deficiency had no impact on the steady state levels of most of its substrates, challenging the currently accepted import dogma of the essential general import role of TIM23 and suggesting that fully functioning TIM23 complex is not essential for maintaining the steady state level of the majority of mitochondrial proteins'. This sentence needs to be rephrased. The data do not challenge any dogma! The authors only show that lower levels of functional TIM23 are sufficient.

      We have rewritten all the relevant sentences as suggested (details are also mentioned in response to reviewer 2 public review point 1)

      (2) Introduction: 'Surprisingly, functional and physiological analysis points to the possibility that TIMM50 and a fully functional TIM23 complex are not essential for maintaining steady-state levels of most presequence-containing proteins'. This again needs to be rephrased.

      Rewritten as suggested (details mentioned in response to reviewer 2 public review point 1)

      (3) Discussion: 'In summary, our results challenge the main dogma that TIMM50 is essential for maintaining the mitochondrial matrix and inner membrane proteome, as steady state level of most mitochondrial matrix and inner membrane proteins did not change in either patient fibroblasts or mouse neurons following a significant decrease in TIMM50 levels.' This again needs to be rephrased.

      Rewritten as suggested (details mentioned in response to reviewer 2 public review point 1)

      (4) The analysis of the proteomics experiment should be improved. The authors show in Figures 3 and 4 several times the same volcano plots in which different groups of proteins are indicated. It would be good to add (a) a principal component analysis to show that the replicates from the mutant samples are consistently different from the controls, (b) a correlation plot that compares the log-fold-change of P1 to that of P2 to show which of the proteins are consistently changed in P1 and P2 and (c) a GO term analysis to show in an unbiased way whether mitochondrial proteins are particular affected upon TIMM50 depletion.

      Figures 3 and 4 have been changed to avoid redundancy. Figure 3 now focuses on fibroblasts proteomics (with additional analysis), while Figure 4 focuses on neurons proteomics. PCA analysis was added in Fig S1, showing that the proteomics replicates of both patients (P1 and P2) are consistently different than the healthy control (HC) replicates. Correlation plots were added in Figure 3C and D, showing high correlation of the downregulated and upregulated mitochondrial proteins between P1 and P2. These plots further highlight that MIM proteins are more affected than matrix proteins and that the OXPHOS and MRP systems comprise the majority of significantly downregulated proteins in both patients. GO term analysis was performed for all the detected proteins that got significantly downregulated in both patients. The GO term analysis is displayed in Figure S3A, and shows that mitochondrial proteins, mainly of the OXPHOS and MRP machineries, are particularly affected.

      (5) Figure 1. The figure shows the levels of TIM and TOM subunits in two mutant samples. The quantifications suggest that the levels of TIMM21, TOMM40, and mtHsp60 are not affected. However, from the figure, it seems that there are increased levels of TIMM21 and reduced levels of TOMM40 and mtHsp60. Unfortunately, in the figure most of the signals are overexposed. Since this is a central element of the study, it would be good to load dilutions of the samples to make sure that the signals are indeed in the linear range and do scale with the amounts of samples loaded.

      The representative WB panels display the Actin loading control of the representative TIMM50 repeat (the top panel). However, each protein was tested separately, at least three times, and was normalized to its own Actin loading control.

      (6) Figure 2B. All panels are shown in color except the panel for TIMM17B which is grayscale. This should be changed to make them look equal.

      All the western blot panels were changed to grayscale.

      (7) Discussion: 'Despite being involved in the import of the majority of the mitochondrial proteome, no study thus far characterized the effects of TIMM50 deficiency on the entire mitochondrial proteome.' This sentence is not correct as proteomic data were published previously, for example for Trypanosomes (PMID: 34517757) and human cells (PMID: 38828998).

      We have corrected the statement to “Despite being involved in the import of the majority of the mitochondrial proteome, little is known about the effects of TIMM50 deficiency on the entire mitochondrial proteome.”

      (8) A recent study on a very similar topic was published by Diana Stojanovki's group that needs to be cited: PMID: 38828998. The results of this comprehensive study also need to be discussed!!!

      We have added the following in the discussion:

      Line 362 – “These observations are similar to the recent analysis of patient-derived fibroblasts which demonstrated that TIMM50 mutations lead to severe deficiency in the level of TIMM50 protein (6,7). Notably, this decrease in TIMM50 was accompanied with a decrease in the level of other two core subunits, TIMM23 and TIMM17. However, unexpectedly, proteomics analysis in our study and that conducted by Crameri et al., 2024 indicate that steady state levels of most TIM23-dependent proteins are not affected despite a drastic decrease in the levels of the TIM23CORE complex (7). The most affected proteins constitute of intricate complexes, such as OXPHOS and MRP machineries. Thus, both these studies indicate a surprising possibility that even reduced levels of the TIM23CORE components are sufficient for maintaining the steady state levels of most presequence containing substrates.

      (1) Homberg B, Rehling P, Cruz-Zaragoza LD. The multifaceted mitochondrial OXA insertase. Trends Cell Biol. 2023;33(9):765–72.

      (2) Carroll J, Altman MC, Fearnley IM, Walker JE. Identification of membrane proteins by tandem mass spectrometry of protein ions. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2007;104(36):14330–5.

      (3) Ting SY, Schilke BA, Hayashi M, Craig EA. Architecture of the TIM23 inner mitochondrial translocon and interactions with the matrix import motor. J Biol Chem [Internet]. 2014;289(41):28689–96. Available from: http://dx.doi.org/10.1074/jbc.M114.588152

      (4) Trefts E, Shaw RJ. AMPK: restoring metabolic homeostasis over space and time. Mol Cell [Internet]. 2021;81(18):3677–90. Available from: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.molcel.2021.08.015

      (5) Zhang S, Hulver MW, McMillan RP, Cline MA, Gilbert ER. The pivotal role of pyruvate dehydrogenase kinases in metabolic flexibility. Nutr Metab. 2014;11(1):1–9.

      (6) Reyes A, Melchionda L, Burlina A, Robinson AJ, Ghezzi D, Zeviani M.  Mutations in TIMM50 compromise cell survival in OxPhos‐dependent metabolic conditions . EMBO Mol Med. 2018;

      (7) Crameri JJ, Palmer CS, Stait T, Jackson TD, Lynch M, Sinclair A, et al. Reduced Protein Import via TIM23 SORT Drives Disease Pathology in TIMM50-Associated Mitochondrial Disease. Mol Cell Biol [Internet]. 2024;0(0):1–19. Available from: https://doi.org/10.1080/10985549.2024.2353652

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):  

      Summary:

      In this study, Setogawa et al. employ an auditory discrimination task in freely moving rats, coupled with small animal imaging, electrophysiological recordings, and pharmacological inhibition/lesioning experiments to better understand the role of two striatal subregions: the anterior Dorsal Lateral Striatum (aDLS) and the posterior Ventrolateral Striatum (pVLS), during auditory discrimination learning. Attempting to better understand the contribution of different striatal subregions to sensory discrimination learning strikes me as a highly relevant and timely question, and the data presented in this study are certainly of major interest to the field. The authors have set up a robust behavioral task and systematically tackled the question about a striatal role in learning with multiple observational and manipulative techniques. Additionally, the structured approach the authors take by using neuroimaging to inform their pharmacological manipulation experiments and electrophysiological recordings is a strength.

      However, the results as they are currently presented are not easy to follow and could use some restructuring, especially the electrophysiology. Also, the main conclusion that the authors draw from the data, that aDLS and pVLS contribute to different phases of discrimination learning and influence the animal's response strategy in different ways, is not strongly supported by the data and deserves some additional caveats and limitations of the study in the discussion. 

      We appreciate the reviewer’s valuable feedback, which has been beneficial for improvement of our manuscript. In response to the reviewer’s comments, we have revised multiple parts of the manuscript, including explanations of electrophysiological data. We have also provided additional data to support our main conclusion and addressed caveats and limitations related to the data in the Discussion section. For more details, please refer to the responses to each comment.

      Comment 1: The authors have rigorously used PET neuroimaging, which is an interesting noninvasive method to track brain activity during behavioral states. However, in the case of a freely moving behavior where the scans are performed ~30 minutes after the behavioral task, it is unclear what conclusions can be drawn about task-specific brain activity. The study hinges on the neuroimaging findings that both areas of the lateral striatum (aDLS and pVLS) show increased activity during acquisition, but the DMS shows a reduction in activity during the late stages of behavior, and some of these findings are later validated with complementary experiments. However, the limitations of this technique can be further elaborated on in the discussion and the conclusions.

      As described in our response to the following two comments (a, b) from the reviewer, in the PET imaging study we first analyzed task-related activity by comparing <sup>18</sup>F-FDG uptake on different days of the auditory discrimination task with that on Day 4 of the single lever press task as a control. Next, we analyzed learning-dependent activity by comparing the uptake on different days of the discrimination task with that on Day 2 of the same task. Based on the results of both analyses, we concluded that the activity in the striatal subregions changes during the progress of discrimination learning. The behavioral significance of striatal subregions was tested by excitotoxic lesion and pharmacological blockade experiments. The explanation of imaging data analysis may have been insufficient to fully communicate dynamic changes in the activity of striatal subregions. Therefore, we have clarified our voxel-based statistical parametric analysis method to better explain the dynamic activity changes in the striatal subregions. Please refer to the following responses to comments 1 (a, b).

      Comment 1 (a): In commenting on the unilateral shifts in brain striatal activity during behavior, the authors use the single lever task as a control, where many variables affecting neuronal activity might be different than in the discriminatory task. The study might be better served using Day 2 measurements as a control against which to compare activity of all other sessions since the task structures are similar.

      We initially analyzed task-related activity by comparing <sup>18</sup>F-FDG uptake on one of Days 2, 6, 10, or 24 of auditory discrimination task with that on Day 4 of the single lever press task. This task was used as a control that does not require a decision process based on the auditory stimulus. We observed significant increases in the activity of the unilateral aDLS on Day 6 and in that of the bilateral pVLS on Day 10 of the discrimination task. We also observed a significant decrease in the unilateral DMS on Day 24 (see Figures 2F and 2G). Next, as suggested, we compared the uptake on one of Days 6, 10, or 24 with that on Day 2 as a control to evaluate learning-dependent activity. The activity showed significant increases in the bilateral aDLS on Day 6 and in the unilateral pVLS on Day 10, and a significant decrease in the bilateral DMS on Day 24 (see Figures 2H). 

      The reviewer has suggested a discrepancy in the activity of the unilateral or bilateral striatal subregions under certain conditions between the image data (shown in Figures 2F–H) and plot data (Figures 2J–L). This discrepancy is also suggested in the following Comment 1 (b). For example, in the image data the brain activity was increased in the unilateral (left) aDLS on Day 6 of the discrimination task as compared to Day 4 of the single lever task (Figure 2F). In the plot data, <sup>18</sup>F-FDG uptake reached a peak on Day 6 in both the left and right sides of the aDLS (Figure 2J), and the uptake in the left aDLS on Day 6 significantly increased relative to the value of the single lever press, whereas the value in the right aDLS on Day 6 tended to increase relative to that of the single lever press with no significant difference. The plot data showing the unilaterality in the aDLS activation relative to the single lever press are consistent with the image data. On the other hand, the <sup>18</sup>F-FDG uptake in the aDLS on Day 6 compared to the value on Day 2 was significantly increased in both sides. Similar observations were made in the activity in the pVLS on Day 10 compared to that on Day 2, as well as in the DMS activity on Day 24 relative to that of the single lever press. 

      Our analysis of both task-related and learning-dependent activities revealed dynamic changes in striatal subregions during discrimination learning. We investigated the brain regions in which <sup>18</sup>F-FDG uptake significantly increased or decreased during the learning processes, applying a statistical significance threshold (p < 0.001, uncorrected) and an extent threshold, by using a voxel-based statistical parametric analysis. In the image data, the voxels showing significant differences between two conditions are visualized on the brain template. The plot data show the amount of <sup>18</sup>FFDG uptake in the voxels, which was detected by the voxel-based analysis. The insufficient explanation of the data analysis of PET imaging in the initial manuscript may have led to a misunderstanding regarding the activity in the unilateral or bilateral striatal subregions. Therefore, we have revised the explanation for voxel-based statistical parametric analysis, adding a more detailed description of the thresholds in the text (page 7, lines 143–145) and Methods (page 27, lines 672–675).

      Comment 1 (b): From the plots in J, K, and L, it seems that shifts in activity in the different substructures are not unilateral but consistently bilateral, in contrast to what is mentioned in the text. Possibly the text reflects comparisons to the single lever task, and here again, I would emphasize comparing within the same task.

      Please see our response to the first comment (a) regarding our explanation of the consistency in the activity of the unilateral or bilateral striatal subregions between the image and plot data. We have also revised the explanation in the corresponding sections of the manuscript, as described above.

      Comment 2: In Figure 2, the authors present compelling data that chronic excitotoxic lesions with ibotenic acid in the aDLS, pVLS, and DMS produce differential effects on discrimination learning. However, the significant reduction in success rate of performance happens as early as Day 6 in both IBO groups in both aDLS and pVLS mice. This would seem to agree with conclusions drawn about the role of aDLS in the middle stages of learning in Figure 2, but not the pVLS, which only shows an increased activity during the late stages of the behavior.  

      Figure 3 shows the behavioral effects of ibotenic acid injections into striatal subregions in rats. For the aDLS injection, we performed two-way repeated ANOVA, which revealed a significant main effect of group or day and a significant interaction of group × day, and added the simple main effects between the treatments to the figure (Figure 3G). We observed significant differences in the success rate mainly at the middle stage of learning. In contrast, for the pVLS injection there was no significant interaction for group × day, although the main effects of group or day was significant by two-way repeated ANOVA (Figure 3H). Consequently, it was unclear as to when exactly the significant reduction occurred. These results indicate that the aDLS and pVLS are necessary for the acquisition of auditory discrimination, and that the aDLS is mainly required for the middle stage. Similar results were observed in the win-shift-win strategy in the aDLS and pVLS (Figures 3J and 3K).

      Next, we performed temporal inhibition of neuronal activity in striatal subregions by muscimol treatment in order to examine whether the activity in the subregions is linked with learning processes at different stages. In this experiment, muscimol was injected into the aDLS or pVLS at the middle or late stage, and the resultant effects on the success rate were investigated. The success rate in the muscimol-injected groups into the aDLS significantly decreased at the middle stage, but not at the early and late stages (Figure 4C). In contrast, the rate in the muscimol groups into the pVLS significantly decreased at the late stage, but not at the early or middle stages (Figure 4D). The results indicate that the aDLS and pVLS are mainly involved in the processes at the middle and late stages, respectively, and support the PET imaging data showing the activation of two striatal subregions at the various stages.

      We have now provided the results of simple main effects analysis for the aDLS lesion (Figures 3G and 3J) and revised the description of the Results section (page 8, lines 174–178, page 8, lines 186–188, and page 9, line 205-206) and Figure legend (page 44, lines 1000‒1003, and page 44, lines 1010–1013). We have also added the results of simple main effects analysis in Figure 3J.

      Comment 3: In Figure 4, the authors show interesting data with transient inactivation of subregions of the striatum with muscimol, validating their findings that the aDLS mediates the middle and the pVLS the late stages of learning, and the function of each area serves different strategies. However, the inference that aDLS inactivation suppresses the WSW strategy "moderately" is not reflected in the formal statistical value p=0.06. While there still may be a subtle effect, the authors would need to revise their conclusions appropriately to reflect the data. In addition, the authors could try a direct comparison between the success rate during muscimol inhibition in the mid-learning session between the aDLS and pVLS-treated groups in Figure 4C (middle) and 4D (middle). If this comparison is not significant, the authors should be careful to claim that inhibition of these two areas differentially affects behavior.

      In Figure 4E, aDLS inhibition showed a tendency to reduce slightly win-shift-win strategy at the middle stage (t[14] = 2.038, p = 0.061, unpaired Student’s t-test). In accordance with the reviewer’s comment, we changed the word “moderate” to “subtle” (page 12, line 272).

      In the temporal inhibition of the striatal subregions, the aDLS and pVLS experiments (panels C and D, respectively) were conducted separately. Since it is difficult to directly compare the data obtained from different experiments, we did not carry out a direct comparison of the success rate between the aDLS and pVLS injections. 

      Comment 4: The authors have used in vivo electrophysiological techniques to systematically investigate the roles of the aDLS and the pVLS in discriminatory learning, and have done a thorough analysis of responses with each phase of behavior over the course of learning. This is a commendable and extremely informative dataset and is a strength of the study. However, the result could be better organized following the sequence of events of the behavioral task to give the reader an easier structure to follow. Ideally, this would involve an individual figure to compare the responses in both areas to Cue, Lever Press, Reward Sound, and First Lick (in this order).

      We first showed changes in the proportion of event-related neurons during the acquisition phase (Figure S5). Next, we conducted a detailed analysis of the characteristics of aDLS and pVLS neuronal activity. Specifically, we found several types of event-related neurons, including: (1) reward sound-related neurons representing behavioral outcomes in the aDLS; (2) first licking-related neurons showing sustained activity after the reward in the aDLS and pVLS; and (3) cue-onset and cue-response neurons associated with the beginning and ending of a behavior in the pVLS.

      Descriptions of the characteristics of event-related neurons according to the sequence of events in a trial, as the reviewer has suggested, is another way to provide an easy structure for understandings on the electrophysiological data. However, we focused on the characteristics of aDLS neurons at the middle stage and pVLS neurons at the late stage of discrimination learning. Therefore, we explained the electrophysiological data based on the order of learning stages rather than the sequence of events in the trial, as described above.

      Comment 5: An important conceptual point presented in the study is that the aDLS neurons, with learning, show a reduction in firing rates and responsiveness to the first lick as well as the behavioral outcome, and don't play a role in other task-related events such as cue onset. However, the neuroimaging data in Figure 2 seems to suggest a transient enhancement of aDLS activity in the mid-stage of discriminatory learning, that is not reflected in the electrophysiology data. Is there an explanation for this difference?

      In the <sup>18</sup>F-FDG PET imaging study, the brain activity in the aDLS reached a peak at the middle stage of the acquisition phase of auditory discrimination (Figure 2J). In the multi-unit electrophysiological recording experiment, the firing activity of the aDLS neuron subpopulations related to the behavioral outcome showed no significant differences among the three stages (Figure 5E), while the proportion of these subpopulations were gradually reduced through the progress of learning stages (Figure 5F). The extent of the firing activity and length of the firing period of other subpopulations showing sustained activation after the reward appeared to show a learning-dependent decrease (Figures 6B and 6C), although the proportion of these subpopulations indicated no correlation with the progress of the learning (Figure 6D). Patterns of the temporal changes in brain activity in striatal subregions across the learning stages did not match completely the time variation in the property or proportion of specific event-related neurons. In our electrophysiological analysis, we identified well-isolated neurons from the striatal subregions during the auditory discrimination task, focusing on putative medium spiny neurons (Figures S4E–S4G). Based on the combinatorial pattern of the tone instruction cue (high tone/H or low tone /L), and lever press (right/R or left/L), we categorized the electrophysiological data into the four trials, including the HR, LL. LR, and HL. We identified HR or LL type neurons showing significant changes in the firing rate related to specific events, such as cue onset, choice response, reward sound, and first licking compared to the baseline firing rate. These neurons were further divided into two groups with increased or decreased activity relative to the baseline firing (Figures S5A and S5B). In the present study, we focused on event-related neurons with increased activity. Because of the analysis limited to neuronal subpopulations related to specific events with the increased activity, it is difficult to fully explain dynamic shifts in the brain activity of striatal subregions dependent on the progress of learning by the time variation of firing activity of individual event-related neurons. The activity of other subpopulations in the striatum may be involved in the shift in brain activity during the learning processes. In addition, recent studies have reported that the activity of glial cells influences the uptake of <sup>18</sup>FFDG (Zimmer et al., Nat Neurosci., 2017) and that these cells regulate spike timingdependent plasticity (Valtcheva and Venance, Nat Commun, 2016). Changes in glial cellular activity, through the control of synaptic plasticity, may partly contribute to the pattern formation of learning-dependent shifts in brain activity.

      To explain the difference in the time course between the brain activity and the firing activity of specific event-related neurons, we have added the aforementioned information to the Limitations section (pages 21 to 22, lines 512–539). 

      Comment 6: A significant finding of the study is that CO-HR and CO-LL responses are strikingly obvious in the pVLS, but not in the aDLS, in line with the literature that the posterior (sensory) striatum processes sound. This study also shows that responses to the highfrequency tone indicating a correct right-lever choice increase with learning in contrast to the low-frequency tone responses. To further address whether this difference arises from the task contingency, and not from the frequency representation of the pVLS, an important control would be to switch the cue-response association in a separate group of mice, such that high-frequency tones require a left lever press and vice versa. This would also help tease apart task-evoked responses in the aDLS, as I am given to understand all the recording sites were in the left striatum.

      We did not conduct an experiment switching cue-response association in the auditory discrimination task. However, the transient activity of cue onset-related neurons in the pVLS, as the reviewer has suggested, did not appear at the early stage of learning, but was observed in a learning-dependent manner (Figures 7A and S8E). In addition, the cue onset-HR activity showed a slight but notable difference between the HR and LL trials at the middle and late stages (Figure 7B), but there was no difference in activity in the HL and LR incorrect trials at the corresponding stages (Wilcoxon signed rank test; early, p = 0.375, middle, p = 0.931, and late, p = 0.668). These results suggest that the activity of cue onset-related neurons in the pVLS is associated with the stimulus and response association (task contingency) rather than the tone frequency.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor comment 1: The readability and appeal of this study would be improved by explaining the various neuronal response types, and task-related events in slightly more detail in the results section, and minimizing the use of non-standard abbreviations wherever possible.

      As suggested, we have replaced the abbreviations related to electrophysiological events (CO, CR, RS, and FL) with the original terms, and improved the explanation for neuronal response types and event-related neurons. 

      Minor comment 2: It would be helpful to label DLS and VLS recordings more clearly on the figures instead of only in the figure caption.

      Thank you for pointing this out. The terms “aDLS” and “pVLS” have now been added to the panels showing firing pattern of neurons: “aDLS” in Figures 5D, 6A, S6A, S7A, S8A, S8B. S8C, and S8D; and “pVLS” in Figures 6F, 7A, 7D, S6D, S6E, S7F, S8E, and S8F.

      Minor comment 3: The authors suggest that aDLS HR- and LL- neurons are more sensitive to the behavioral outcome than those in pVLS (Fig 5 and S5). However, their conclusions are based on sample sizes as low as n=3 for each response type.

      We identified event-related neurons from single neurons detected in both the aDLS and pVLS using the same criteria. In the pVLS, we found a small number of neurons that increased their activity during the period when the reward sound is presented (Figures S6D and S6E) (6, 4, and 17 HR type neurons at the early, middle, and late stages, respectively; 3, 5, and 15 LL type neurons at the early, middle, and late stages, respectively). The number of LL type neurons at the early stage was particularly lower, as the reviewer has suggested. However, when we plotted the firing rates of these neurons around the event, their activity did not reflect behavioral outcome. In the aDLS, we detected a large number of reward sound-related neurons representing behavioral outcome (Figures 5 and S6A) (43, 37, and 44 HR type neurons at the early, middle, and late stages, respectively; 49, 62, and 59 LL type neurons at the early, middle, and late stages, respectively). These observations suggest that aDLS neurons are more sensitive to behavioral outcomes than pVLS neurons.

      Minor comment 4: Typo in Figure 4C and D, right plots, y-axis label: "subtracted".

      The typographic errors in Figures 4C–4H have now been corrected to “subtracted”.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Reviews):

      The study by Setogawa et al. aims to understand the role that different striatal subregions belonging to parallel brain circuits have in associative learning and discrimination learning (S-O-R and S-R tasks). Strengths of the study are the use of multiple methodologies to measure and manipulate brain activity in rats, from microPET imaging to excitotoxic lesions and multielectrode recordings across anterior dorsolateral (aDLS), posterior ventral lateral (pVLS)and dorsomedial (DMS) striatum. The main conclusions are that the aDLS promotes stimulus-response association and suppresses response-outcome associations. The pVLS is engaged in the formation and maintenance of the stimulus-response association. There is a lot of work done and some interesting findings however, the manuscript can be improved by clarifying the presentation and reasoning. The inclusion of important controls will enhance the rigor of the data interpretation and conclusions.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s valuable feedback, which has been beneficial in our endeavor to improve our manuscript. In response to the comments, we have revised the description of the experimental methods and underlying rationale, as well as the Results section. We have also provided additional data for some of the experiments that support the conclusions. For more details, please refer to the responses to each comment, included below.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Comment 1: Generally, the manuscript is hard to read because of the cumbersome sentence structure, overuse of poorly defined acronyms, and lack of clarity on the methods used.

      According to the following comments (a)–(d), we have revised the corresponding text in the manuscript to clarify the sentence structure, definitions of terms, and methodology. 

      Comment 1 (a): For example, the single lever task used as a control for the auditory discrimination task could be introduced better, explaining the reasoning and the strategy for subtracting it from the images obtained during the discrimination phase at the start of the section.

      We analyzed task-related activity by comparing <sup>18</sup>F-FDG uptake on Days 2, 6, 10, or 24 of auditory discrimination task with that on Day 4 of the single lever press task. This task was used as a control that does not require a decision process based on the auditory stimulus. For clarification, we have provided a more detailed explanation of the flow of the single lever press task used in the PET experiment, including the rationale for employing this task as a control (page 6, lines 129–135). We have also revised the explanation of voxel-based statistical parametric analysis, adding a more detailed description of the thresholds (page 7, lines 143–145).

      Comment 1 (b): Another example is that important methodological information is buried deep in the text and complicates the interpretation of the results.

      We have revised the following sentences in the manuscript in order to provide clearer methodological information.

      (1) As described above, explanations for the single lever task (page 6, lines 129–135) and voxel-based statistical parametric analysis were added (page 7, lines 143–145). 

      (2) Definition of the early, middle, and late stages were described in the initial behavioral experiment (page 6, lines 113–119). 

      (3) Abbreviations related to behavioral strategies (WSW and LSL) and electrophysiological events (CO, CR, RS, and FL) were replaced with the original terms. 

      Comment 1 (c): The specie being studied is not stated in the abstract, nor the introduction, and only in the middle of the result section. Please include the specie in the abstract and the first part of the result also for clarity.

      We included the name of the species (rats) in the Abstract (page 3, line 47), at the end of the Introduction (page 5, lines 87–88) and at the beginning of the Results (page 5, line 109).

      Comment 1 (d): The last part of the intro is copied/pasted from the abstract. Please revise.

      The last part of the Introduction was revised accordingly (page 5, lines 97–104).

      Comment 2: The glucose microPET imaging is carried out 30 mins after the rats performed the task and it is expected to capture activation during the task. Is this correct? This assumption has to be validated with an experiment, which is a control showing a validation of the microPET approach used, and this way can report activation of brain areas during the task completed 20-30 minutes before. For example, V1 or A1 would be a control that we would expect to be activated during the task.

      Our PET experiment was conducted in accordance with previously established methods (Cui et al, Neuroimage, 2015), where rats received intravenous administration of <sup>18</sup>FFDG solution just before the start of the behavioral session, which lasted for 30 min. The <sup>18</sup>F-FDG uptake in the brain starts immediately and reaches the maximum level until 30 min after the administration, and the level is kept at least for 1 h (Mizuma et al., J Nucl Med, 2010). The rats were returned to their home cages, and a 30-min PET scan started 25 min after the session. The start time of the scan was chosen to allow for sufficient reduction of 18F radioactivity in arterial blood to increase the S/N ratio of the radioactivity (Mizuma et al., J Nucl Med, 2010). As shown in Table S1, we confirmed that the brain activity in the medial geniculate body (auditory thalamus) was increased on Days 6 and 10 in the acquisition phase, although the activity in the auditory cortex was not changed, which is consistent with the results of a previous study reporting that the auditory cortex does not show the causality for the pure-tone discrimination task (Gimenez et al., J Neurophysiol., 2015).

      Comment 3: Why are Days 2, 6, 10, and 13 chosen and compared for the behavior? Why aren't these the same days chosen in the other part of the study? It is unclear why authors focused on these days and why the focus changed later.

      We conducted daily training of the discrimination task. The success rate reached a plateau on Day 13 and was maintained until Day 24 (Figure 1B). Based on these results, we categorized the learning processes into the acquisition and learned phases, and then divided the acquisition phase into the early (< 60%), middle (60–80%), and late (> 80%) stages. In the PET experiment, we selected Days 2, 6, and 10 as the representatives of each stage during the acquisition phase. In addition, we also selected Day 24 for the learned phase.  However, no scan was performed on Day 13 due to the transition between the two phases.   

      Comment 4: (A) Is the learning and acquisition of the single lever press and discrimination task completed by day 4? Or are rats still learning? The authors claimed no changes in DMS activity between single lever press & discrimination, and therefore DMS isn't involved in learning. But to make this claim we should have measures that the learning has already happened, which I am not sure have been provided. (B) On this same point, the DMS activity is elevated on Day 4 of a single lever press compared to the aDLS and pVLS. So is it possible that the activity in DMS was already elevated on Day 4 of single lever press training? Especially given that DMS is supposedly involved in goal-directed behavior?

      (A) In the single lever press task, the number of lever presses plateaued on Day 2 (Figure 1C). In addition, we analyzed response time and its variability, which plateaued from Day 3 and Day 2, respectively (see Author response image 1). These results indicate that the learning in the task was completed by Day 4. In the auditory discrimination task, Day 4 corresponded to the transition period from the early-tomiddle stages of the acquisition phase, suggesting that learning was still progressing. 

      In the imaging analysis, we examined task-related activity by comparing <sup>18</sup>F-FDG uptake on either day of the discrimination task with that on Day 4 of the single lever press task, and did not find any changes in the brain activity in the DMS. In addition, we investigated learning-related activity, and the DMS activity did not change during acquisition phase. These results suggest that the DMS is not involved in the acquisition phase of learning. Furthermore, comparisons between Days 10 and Day 24 showed a decrease in DMS activity during the learned phase, suggesting that DMS activity was downregulated during the learned phase. In addition, chronic lesion in the DMS indicated that the success rate in the discrimination task was comparable between the control and lesioned groups (Figure 3I), whereas the response time lengthened throughout the learning in the lesioned group compared to the controls (Figure S1C). These results support our notion that the DMS contributes to the execution, but not learning, of discriminative behavior (Figure 3I and S1C).

      Author response image 1.

      Performance of single lever press task conducted before auditory discrimination task. (A) Number of lever presses. (B) Response time (Kruskal-Wallis test, χ<sup>2</sup> = 38.063, p = 2.7 × 10<sup>-8</sup>, post hoc Tukey–Kramer test, p = 0.047 for Day 1 vs. Day 2; p = 2.3 × 10<sup>-7</sup> for Day 1 vs. Day 3; and p = 4.0 × 10<sup>-6</sup> for Day 1 vs. Day 4; p = 0.019 for Day 2 vs. Day 3; p = 0.082 for Day 2 vs. Day 4; p = 0.951 for Day 3 vs. Day 4). (C) Response time variability (Kruskal-Wallis test, χ<sup>2</sup> = 28.929, p = 2.3 × <sup>-6</sup>, post hoc Tukey–Kramer test, p = 0.077 for Day 1 vs. Day 2; p = 5.7 × 10<sup>-6</sup> for Day 1 vs. Day 3; and p = 1.3 × 10<sup>-4</sup> for Day 1 vs. Day 4; p = 0.060 for Day 2 vs. Day 3; p = 0.253 for Day 2 vs. Day 4; p = 0.912 for Day 3 vs. Day 4). Data obtained from the task shown in Figure 2C are plotted as the median and quartiles with the maximal and minimal values. *p < 0.05, **p < 0.01, and ***p < 0.001.

      (B) We compared <sup>18</sup>F-FDG uptakes among striatal subregions on Day 4 of the single lever press task (334.8 ± 2.86, 299.0 ± 1.71, and 336.8 ± 2.18 for the aDLS, pVLS, and DMS, respectively; one-way ANOVA, F[2,41] = 104.767, p = 2.1 × 10<sup>-16</sup>). The uptake was comparable between the aDLS and DMS (post hoc Tukey-Kramer test, p = 0.058), but it was significantly lower in the pVLS compared to either of the other two subregions (post hoc Tukey-Kramer test, aDLS vs. pVLS, p = 5.1 × 10<sup>-9</sup>, post hoc Tukey-Kramer test, pVLS vs. DMS, p = 5.1 × 10<sup>-9</sup>). However, since we did not measure the brain activity in the single lever task outside of Day 4, it is unclear whether there was an increase in DMS activity during the acquisition of the task. Similarly, since we did not confirm the behavioral modes, which include goal-directed and habitual actions, it is difficult to conclude that the lever presses in the task were controlled by the goaldirected mode. However, our chronic lesion experiment suggests that the DMS is involved in the execution of discrimination behavior (Figure S1C). A clearer understanding of the DMS function in discrimination learning is an important challenge in the future.

      Comment 5: It seems like the procedure of microPET imaging affects performance on the task. The anesthesia used maybe? Figures 2C and D show evidence that the behavior was negatively affected on the days on which microPET imaging was performed after the training. Can the author clarify/comment?

      Isoflurane anesthesia may slightly reduce behavioral performance. We carried out anesthesia (median [interquartile range]: 6 [5–8] min) during the insertion of the catheter for FDG injection, and set a recovery period of at least 2 h until the beginning of the behavioral session, to minimize the impact of anesthesia. The performances in Figure 2E were similar to those in the intact rats (compared to Figures 1C–1F), suggesting that the procedure for PET scans does not affect the acquisition of discrimination. 

      We have added detailed information on the isoflurane anesthesia to the Methods section (page 26, lines 649–653).

      Comment 6: More on clarity. Section 3 of the results (muscimol inactivation) refers a lot to "the behavioral strategies" without really clarifying what these are - are they referring to WSW / LSL (which also could use a better introduction) or goal-directed/habitual or stimulus-response/stimulus-outcome?

      The dorsal striatum is involved in both behavioral strategies based on stimulus-response association and the response-outcome association during instrumental learning. To assess the impact of striatal lesions on the behavioral strategies, we analyzed the proportion of response attributed to two strategies in all responses of each session. One is the “win-shift-win” strategy, which is considered to reflect the behavioral strategy based on the stimulus-response association. In this strategy, after a correct response in the previous trial, the rats press the opposite lever in the current trial in response to a shift of the instruction cue, resulting in the correct response.  Another strategy is the “lose-shift-lose” strategy, which is considered to appear as a consequence of the behavioral strategy based on the response-outcome association. In this strategy, after an error response in the previous trial, the rats press the opposite lever in the current trial despite a shift of the instruction cue, leading to another error response.

      We have revised the explanations of the behavioral strategies in the section of the Results section (page 9, lines 192–201). 

      Comment 7: Related to WSW / LSL needing a better introduction, on lines 192/193 authors describe a result where they saw the WSW and LSL strategies increase and decrease, respectively, in saline-injected mice. Is the change in performance expected or an undesired effect of the saline injection? This is not clear now and it should be clarified.

      The explanations of the win-shift-win and lose-shift-lose strategies have been revised in the Results section on excitotoxic lesion experiment (page 9, lines 192–201) as described in our response to Comment 6. Win-shift-win is an indicator of correct responses, while lose-shift-lose indicates errors. Therefore, win-shift-win is predicted to increase, and lose-shift-lose decrease, as discrimination learning progresses. Indeed, in the results of the behavioral experiments, shown in Figure 1, both indicators change in a similar pattern to those in the results of the lesion experiments (Figure 3).

      We have added the explanation of the proportions of both strategies in intact rats (page 9, lines 203–204) with a supplementary figure (Figure S2) and accompanying legend (page 56, lines 1173–1177).

      Comment 8: Muscimol experiments - two questions/comments. How often do rats receive muscimol?

      In this section, muscimol is given on day 2 and on days after the animals hit a 60% or 80% success rate. Can the authors provide a mean and SEM for when are those injections?

      The first injection was conducted on Day 2 to target the early stage. The second and third injections were conducted on the days after the success rate had reached 60% and 80% for the first time through the training, respectively, to target the middle and late stage. respectively. These conditions are described in the Results (page 10, lines 234– 237) and Methods (page 26, lines 633–636). The mean and s.e.m. of the injection day at the middle and late stages were not significantly different between the saline and muscimol-injected groups into the aDLS (see Author response image 2A) and pVLS (see Author response image 2B).

      Author response image 2.

      Injection days during auditory discrimination learning. Injections with saline (SAL) and muscimol (MUS) into the aDLS (A) or pVLS (B) were performed after the success rate had reached 60% (middle stage) and 80% (late stage) for the first time through the training, respectively (A, Wilcoxon signed rank test, middle, Z = 65, p = 0.772, late, Z = 56.5, p = 0.242 for the aDLS; B, Wilcoxon signed rank test, middle, Z = 39, p = 1.000, late, Z = 43, p = 0.587). Data are indicated as the median and quartiles with the maximal and minimal values. 

      Comment 9: Muscimol experiments. Can the authors comment on the effects on performance vs learning? What happens on the days after Muscimol? Does performance bounce back or is it still impaired?

      We conducted a transient inhibition experiment with muscimol to examine whether the neuronal activity in the striatal subregions is linked with the processes at different stages. In this experiment, to lower the possibility that compensation of learning may occur during a session after the muscimol injection (Day N), we limited the session time to 15 min (45 trials) and evaluated the impact of the injection on the success rate at specific stages. The success rate in the muscimol-injected groups into the aDLS significantly decreased at the middle stage compared to the corresponding salineinjected groups, but not at the early and late stages (Figure 4C), and the rate in the muscimol groups into the pVLS significantly decreased at the late stage compared with the respective saline groups, but not at the early and middle stages (Figure 4D). Our results demonstrated that the aDLS and pVLS mainly function at the middle and late stages of the auditory discrimination task, respectively. 

      In addition, we here reply to comment 10 as for the comparison of success rates before (Day N-1) and after (Day N+1) the injections (see Author response image 3). We focused on two injections into the aDLS at the middle stage and into the pVLS at the late stage, in which the rate was reduced soon after the muscimol injection on Day N. The success rate for the two injections showed no significant main effect regarding group (saline/muscimol) or day (Days N-1/N+1) and no significant interactions for group × day. Moreover, the success rate was not significantly increased on Day N+1 as compared to Day N-1, even in the saline-injected control group, probably because of the limited session time soon after the injection. Therefore, we consider that it was difficult to define the effects of drug injection on the learning of auditory discrimination in our behavioral protocol for the transient inhibition experiment, and that the reduced rates observed in the muscimol-injected group on Day N mostly reflect the impacts of muscimol at least partly on the performance of discriminative behavior. 

      Author response image 3.

      Comparison of success rate between days before (Day N1) and after (Day N+1) the injections into striatal subregions. Success rate in the saline (SAL)- and muscimol (MUS)-injected groups into the aDLS (A) or pVLS (B) at the early, middle, and late stages of auditory discrimination learning (two-way repeated ANOVA; early, day, F[1,14] = 5.266, p = 0.038, group, F[1,14] = 0.276, p = 0.608, day × group, F[1,14] = 0.118, p = 0.736; middle, day, F[1,14] = 4.110, p = 0.062, group, F[1,14] = 0.056, p = 0.816, day × group, F[1,14] = 1.150, p = 0.302; late, day, F[1,14] = 6.408, p = 0.024, group, F[1,14] = 0.229, p = 0.640, day × group, F[1,14] = 1.277, p = 0.278 for the aDLS; and early, day, F[1,10] = 0.115, p = 0.746, group, F[1,10] = 2.414, p = 0.151, day × group, F[1,10] = 0.157, p = 0.700; middle, day, F[1,10] = 0.278, p = 0.610, group, F[1,10] = 0.511, p = 0.491, day × group, F[1,10] = 4.144, p = 0.069; late, day, F[1,10] = 0.151, p = 0.705, group, F[1,10] = 0.719, p = 0.416, day × group, F[1,10] = 0.717, p = 0.417 for the pVLS). Data are indicated as the mean ± s.e.m.

      Comment 10: Muscimol data has a pair before and after, can the authors show this comparison at early, middle, and late training? Not just the subtraction.

      The comparison of success rates before and after drug injection is shown in Author response image 3.

      Comment 11: Ephys recordings. These are complex figures and include a large number of acronyms. It would help to define them again and help the reader through these figures so the reader can focus on understanding the finding more than the figure presentation.

      We replaced the abbreviations related to electrophysiological events (CO, CR, RS, and FL) with the original terms, and improved the explanation in the text and figures. 

      Comment 12: Figure 7B/E - on correct trials, they see a difference in the cue response to high tone / low tone but no difference in the choice. This is the one that seemed like a topography issue.

      The transient activity of cue onset-related neurons in the pVLS did not appear at the early stage of learning, but was observed in a learning-dependent manner (Figures 7A and S8E). In addition, the cue onset-HR activity showed a slight but notable difference between the HR and LL trials at the middle and late stages (Figure 7B), whereas there was no difference between activities in the HL and LR incorrect trials at the corresponding stages (Wilcoxon signed rank test; early, p = 0.375, middle, p = 0.931, and late, p = 0.668). These results suggest that the cue onset-related neurons in the pVLS represents the stimulus and response association (task contingency) rather than the topography of tone frequency.

      Comment 13: Animals were normally trained for 60 minutes but on muscimol days only trained for 15 mins. On PET days only trained for 30 minutes. Ephys sessions were 60 mins. Is this correct? Why?

      We determined the session time for each experiment by considering both technical and behavioral aspects. In the initial behavioral experiment, the session time was set to 60 min per day. Under this condition, the rats acquired the discrimination learning within 13 days. In the imaging experiment, the session without a PET scan was conducted for 60 min, while the session with a PET scan was carried out for 30 min as described previously (Cui et al, Neuroimage, 2015). This time schedule produced a learning curve similar to that of the initial behavioral experiment. In the transient inhibition experiment, the sessions without drug injections lasted for 60 min. As described in our response to the comment 2, the time of the session soon after the injection was limited to 15 min to lower the possibility of compensation of learning during the session. In the chronic lesion and electrophysiological experiments, all sessions were conducted for 60 min, corresponding to the initial experiment. 

      References

      Mizuma, H., Shukuri, M., Hayashi, T., Watanabe, Y. & Onoe, H. Establishment of in vivo brain imaging method in conscious mice. Journal of Nuclear Medicine 51, 10681075 (2010).

      Cui, Y., et al. A voxel-based analysis of brain activity in high-order trigeminal pathway in the rat induced by cortical spreading depression. Neuroimage 108, 17-22 (2015).

      Zimmer, E.R., et al. [18 F] FDG PET signal is driven by astroglial glutamate transport. Nat Neurosci 20, 393-395 (2017).

      Valtcheva, S. & Venance, L. Astrocytes gate Hebbian synaptic plasticity in the striatum. Nature communications 7, 13845 (2016).

      Gimenez T.L., Lorenc M., Jaramillo S. Adaptive categorization of sound frequency does not require the auditory cortex in rats. J Neurophysiol 114:1137-1145 (2015).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Recommendations for the authors

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Below I summarize points that should be addressed in a revised version of the manuscript.

      • Page 6, first paragraph: I don't understand by the signals average out to a single state. If the distribution is indeed randomly distributed, a broad signal with low intensity should be present.

      We agree that this statement may cause confusion. We changed the text (marked in bold) to clarify the statement: The mobility of the undocked SBDs will be higher than the diffusion of the whole complex, allowing the sampling of varying interdomain distances within a single burst. However, these dynamic variations are subsequently averaged to a singular FRET value during FRET calculations for each burst, and may appear as a single low FRET state in the histograms.

      • Page 6, third paragraph: how can the donor only be detected in the acceptor channel? Is this tailing out?

      Donor only signal is not detected in the acceptor channel. As described in page 5 and in the Materials & Methods section, the dye stoichiometry value is defined for each burst/dwell using three types of photon counts: donor-based donor emission (FDD), donor-based acceptor emission (FDA) and acceptorbased acceptor emission (FAA).

      When no acceptor fluorophore is present FAA=0 and S=1.

      Some donor photons bleed through into the acceptor channel, but we correct for this by calculating the leakage and crosstalk factors as described in the Materials and Methods (page 20).

      We changed the text (marked in bold) in the manuscript to address the question: The FRET data of both OpuA variants is best explained by a four-state model (Figure 2A,B; fourth and fifth panel) (Supplementary File 3). Two of the four states represent donor-only (S≈1) or acceptor-only (S≈0) dwells. The full bursts belonging to donor-only and acceptor-only molecules were excluded prior to mpH2MM. This means that some molecules transit to a donor-only or acceptor-only state within the burst period, which most likely reflects blinking or bleaching of one of the fluorophores. These donoronly and acceptor-only states were also excluded during further analysis. The other two states reflect genuine FRET dwells that were analyzed by mpH2MM. They represent different conformations of the SBDs.

      • Page 7, "SBD dynamics ..": why was the V149Q mutant only analyzed in the K521C background and not also in the N414C background?

      The two FRET states were best distinguished in OpuA-K521C. Therefore, we decided to focus on OpuA-K521C and not OpuA-N414C. OpuA-V149Q was used to show that reduced docking efficiency does not affect the transition rate constants and relative abundances of the two FRET states, and we regarded it sufficient to test the SBD dynamics in OpuA-K521C only.

      • Page 8, second paragraph: why was the N414C mutant analyzed only from 0 - 600 mM and not also up to 1000 mM?

      In line with the previous answer, our main focus was on OpuA-K521C, since the two FRET states were best distinguished in OpuA-K521C. OpuA-N414C was used to prove that similar states are observed when measuring with fluorophores on the opposite site of the SBD. We studied how the FRET states change in response to different conditions that correspond to different stages of the transport cycle and how it changes in response to different ionic strengths. Initially, 600 mM KCl was used to study the dynamics of the SBD at high ionic strength. Later in this study, we tested a very wide range of different salt concentrations for OpuA-K521C to get detailed insights into the dynamics of the SBDs over a wide ionic strength range. Note that 1 M KCl is a very high, non-physiological ionic strength for the typical habitat of L. lactis and was only used to show that the high FRET state occurs even under very extreme conditions.

      • Page 8, third paragraph: why was the dimer (if it is the source of the FRET signal) only partially disrupted?

      We acknowledge that this is a very good point. However, we purposely did not speculate on this point in the manuscript, because we have limited information on the molecular details of the interaction. As we highlight on page 8, the SBDs experience each other in a very high apparent concentration (millimolar range). This means that the interactions are most likely very weak (low affinity) and not very specific. Such interactions are in the literature referred to as the quinary structure of proteins and they occur at the high macromolecular crowding in the cell and in proteins with tethered domains, and thus at high local concentrations. Such interactions can be screened by high ionic strength. In the revised manuscript, we now present the partially disrupted dimer structure in the context of the quinary structure of a protein (page 11):

      In other words, the high FRET state may comprise an ensemble of weakly interacting states rather than a singular stable conformation, resembling the quinary structure of proteins. The quinary structure of proteins is typically revealed in highly crowded cellular environments and describes the weak interactions between protein surfaces that contribute to their stability, function, and spatial organization (Guin & Gruebele, 2019). Despite the current study being conducted under dilute conditions, the local concentration of SBDs (~4 mM) mimics a densely populated environment and reveal quinary structure.

      • Page 9, second paragraph: according to the EM data processing, only 20% of the particles were used for 3D reconstruction. Why? Does it mean that the remaining 80% were physiologically not relevant? If so, why were the 20% used relevant?

      We note that it is a fundamental part of image processing of single particle cryo-EM data to remove false positives or low-resolution particles throughout the processing workflow. In particular when using a very low and therefore generous threshold during automated particle picking, as we did (t=0.01 and t=0.05 for the 50 mM KCl and 100 mM KCl datasets, respectively), the initial set of particles includes a significant amount of false positives – a tradeoff to avoid excluding particles belonging to low populated classes/orientations. It is thus common that more than 50% of ‘particles’ are excluded in the first rounds of 2D classification. In our case, only 30% and 52% of particles were retained after such first clean-up steps. Subsequently, the particle set is further refined, and additional false positives and low-resolution particles are excluded during extensive rounds of 3D classification. We also note that during the final steps, most of the data excluded represents particles of lower quality that do not contribute to a high-resolution, or belong to low population protein conformations. This does not mean that such a population is not physiological relevant. In conclusion, having only 5-20% of the initial automated picked particles contributing to the reconstruction of the final cryo-EM map is common, with the vast majority of excluded particles being false positives.

      • Page 11, third paragraph: the way the proposed model is selected is also my main criticism. All alternative models do not fit the data. Therefore, the proposed model is suggested. However, I do not grasp any direct support for this model. Either I missed it or it is not presented.

      Concerning the specific model in Figure 5, the reviewer is correct. We do not provide direct evidence for a side-ways interaction. However, we have evidence of transient interactions and our data rule out several scenarios of interaction, leaving 5C as the most likely model. This is also the main conclusion of this paper: In conclusion, the SBDs of OpuA transiently interact in a docking competent conformation, explaining the cooperativity between the SBDs during transport. The conformation of this interaction is not fixed but differs substantially between different conditions.

      Because the interaction is very short-lived it was not possible to visualize molecular details of this interaction. We present Figure 5 to hypothesize the most likely type of interaction, since many possibilities can be excluded with the vast amount of presented data. To make our point more clear that we discuss models and rule out several possibilities but not demonstrate a specific interaction between the SBDs, we now write on page 10 (changes marked in bold): We have shown that the SBDs of OpuA come close together in a short-lived state, which is responsive to the addition of glycine betaine (Figure 4A). Although the occurrence of the state varies between different conditions, it was not possible to negate the high-FRET state completely, not even under very high or low KCl concentrations, or in the presence of 50 mM arginine plus 50 mM glutamate (Figure 4A,B). To evaluate possible interdomain interactions scenarios we consider the following: (1) The SBDs of OpuA are connected to the TMDs with very short linkers of approximately 4 nm, which limit their movement and allow the receptor to sample a relatively small volume near its docking site. (2) in low ionic strength condition OpuA-K521C displays a high FRET state with mean FRET values of 0.7-0.8, which correspond to inter-dye distances of approximately 4 nm. (3) The high FRET state is responsive to glycine betaine, which points toward direct communication between the two SBDs. (4) The distance between the density centers of the SBDs in the cryo-EM reconstructions (based on particles with a low and high FRET state) is 6 nm, which aligns with the dimensions of an SBD (length: ~6 nm, maximal width: ~4 nm). These findings collectively indicate that two SBDs interact but not necessarily in a singular conformation but possibly as an ensemble of weakly interacting states. Hence, we discuss three possible SBD-SBD interaction models to explain the highFRET state:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      In the abstract and elsewhere the authors suggest that the SBDs physically interact with one another, and that this interaction is important for the transport mechanism, specifically for its cooperativity.

      I feel that this main claim is not well established. The authors convincingly demonstrate that the SBDs largely occupy two states relative to one another and that in one of these states, they are closer than in the other. Unless I have missed (or failed to understand) some major details of the results, I did not find any evidence of a physical interaction. Have the authors established that the high FRET state indeed corresponds to the physical engagement of the SBDs? I feel that a direct demonstration of an interaction is much missing.

      Along the same lines, in the low-salt cryo-EM structure, where the SBDs are relatively closer together, the SBDs are still separated and do not interact.

      See also our response to the final comment of reviewer 1. Furthermore, please carefully consider the following: (1) FRET values of 0.7-0.8 correspond to inter-dye distances of approximately 4 nm. (2) The high FRET state is responsive to glycine betaine, which points toward direct communication between the two SBDs. (3) The cryo-EM reconstruction is the average of all the particles in the final dataset, including both the particles with a low and high FRET state. Further, the local resolution of the SBDs in the cryo-EM map is low, indicative of high degree of flexibility. Thus, a potential interaction is possible within the observed range of flexibility. (4) The distance between the density centers is 6 nm, aligning with the dimensions of an SBD (length: 6 nm, maximal width: 4 nm). These factors collectively indicate SBD interactions, and we present these points now more explicitly in Figure 4 and the last part of the results section (page 9).

      Once the authors successfully demonstrate that direct physical interaction indeed occurs, they will need to provide data that places it in the context of the transport cycle. Do the SBDs swap ligand molecules between them? Do they bind the ligand and/or the transporter cooperatively? What is the role of this interaction?

      We acknowledge the intriguing nature of the posed questions, but they extend beyond the scope of this study. It is extremely challenging to obtain high-resolution structures of highly dynamic multidomain proteins, like OpuA, and to probe transient interactions as we do here for the SBDs of OpuA. We therefore combined cryo-TEM with smFRET studies and perform the most advanced and state-of-theart analysis tools as acknowledged by reviewer 1. We link our observations on the structural dynamics and interactions of the SBDs to a previous study, where we showed that the two SBDs of OpuA interact cooperatively. We do not have further evidence that connect the physical interactions to the transport cycle. In our view, the collective datasets indicate that the here reported physical interactions between the SBDs increase the transport efficiency.

      As far as I understand, the smFRET data have been interpreted on the basis of a negative observation, i.e., that it is "likely" that none of the FRET states corresponds to a docked SBD. To convincingly show this, a positive observation is required, i.e., observation of a docked state.

      The aim of this study was to study interdomain dynamics and not specifically docking. We have previously shown that docking can be visualized via cryo-EM (Sikkema et al., 2020), however the SBDs of OpuA appear to only dock in specific turnover conditions. We now show that the high FRET state of OpuA cannot represent a docked state, but that the SBDs transiently interact (see our response to the first comment). Importantly, a docked state was also not found in the cryo-EM reconstructions at low ionic strength, representing the smFRET conditions where we observe the interactions between the SBDs. The high FRET state occupies 30% of the dwells in this condition, and such a high percentage of molecules would have become apparent during cryo-EM 3D classification in case they would form a docked state. Therefore, we conclude that docking does not occur in low ionic strength apo condition. We discuss this point and our reasoning on page 11 of the revised manuscript.

      In this respect, I find it troubling that in none of the tested conditions, the authors observed a FRET state which corresponds to the docked state. Such a state, which must exist for transport to occur (as mentioned in the authors' previous publications), needs to be demonstrated. This brings me to my next question: why have the authors not measured FRET between the SBDs and the transporter? Isn't this a very important piece that is missing from their puzzle?

      We agree that investigating docking behavior under varied turnover conditions requires focused experiments on FRET dynamics between the SBDs and the transporter. As noted on page 5, OpuA exists as a homodimer, implying that a single cysteine mutation introduces two cysteines in a single functional transporter. To specifically implement a cysteine mutation in only one SBD and one transmembrane domain, it is necessary to artificially construct a heterodimer. We recently published initial attempts in this direction, and this will be a subject for future research but still requires years of work.

      Additionally, I feel that important controls are missing. For example, how will the data presented in Fig1 look if the transporter is labeled with acceptor or donor only? How do soluble SBDs behave?

      In the employed labeling method, donor and acceptor dyes are mixed in a 1:1 ratio and randomly attached to the two cysteines in the transporter. This automatically yields significant fractions of donor only and acceptor only transporters which are always present during the smFRET recordings. We can visualize those molecules on the basis of the dye stoichiometry, which we calculate by using three types of photon counts: donor-based donor emission (FDD), donor-based acceptor emission (FDA) and acceptorbased acceptor emission (FAA).

      Unfiltered plots look as follows (a dataset of OpuA-K521C at 600 mM KCl):

      Author response image 1.

      Donor only and acceptor only molecules have a very well discernible stoichiometry of 1 and 0, respectively. The filtering procedure is described in the materials and methods section, and these plots can be found in the supplementary database. We did not add them to the main text or supplementary materials of the original manuscript, as this is a very common procedure in the field of smFRET. We now include such a dataset in the revised manuscript.

      Soluble SBDs of OpuA have been studied previously (e.g. Wolters et al., 2010 & De Boer et al. 2019). For example, we have shown by SEC-MALLLS that soluble SBDs do not form dimers, which is consistent with our notion that the SBDs interact with low affinity. It is not possible to study interdomain dynamics between soluble SBDs by smFRET, because the measurements are carried out at picomolar concentrations (monomeric conditions). We emphasize that smFRET measurements with native complexes, with SBDs near each other at apparent millimolar concentrations, is physiologically more relevant.

      Additional comments:

      (1) "It could well be that cooperativity and transient interactions between SBDs is more common than previously anticipated" and a similar statement in the abstract. What evidence is there to suggest that the transient interactions between SBDs are a common phenomenon?

      On page 11, we write: Dimer formation of SBPs has been described for a variety of proteins from different structural clusters of substrate-binding proteins [33–38,51–53]. We cite 9 papers that report SBD/SBP dimers. This suggest to us that the phenomenon of interacting substrate-binding proteins could be more common. Moreover, the concentration of maltose-binding protein and other SBPs in the periplasm of Gram-negative bacteria can reach (sub)millimolar concentrations, and low-affinity interactions may play a role not only in membrane protein-tethered SBDs (like in OpuA) but also be important in soluble substrate-receptors. Such low-affinity interactions are rarely studied in biochemical experiments.

      (2) I think that the data presented in 1B-C better suits the supplementary information.

      Figure 1B-D is already a summary of the supplementary information that describes the optimization of OpuA purification. We think it is valuable to show this part of the figure in the main text. A very clean and highly pure OpuA sample is essential for smFRET experiments. Quality of protein preparations and data analysis are key for the type of measurements we report in this paper.

      (3) "the first peak in the SEC profile corresponds...." The peaks should be numbered in the figure to facilitate their identification.

      We have changed the figure as suggested.

      (4) "smFRET is a powerful tool for studying protein dynamics, but it has only been used for a handful of membrane proteins". With the growing list of membrane proteins studied by smFRET I find this an overstatement.

      We removed this sentence in the new version of the manuscript.

      (5) "We rationalized that docking of one SBD could induce a distance shift between the two SBDs in the FRET range of 3-10 nm (Figure 1E)" How and why was this assumed?

      We realize that this is one of the sentences that caused confusion about the aim of this study. In this part of the manuscript, we should not have used docking as an example and we apologize for that. We replaced the sentence by: These variants are used to study inter-SBD dynamics in the FRET range of 310 nm (Figure 1E).

      Also Figure 1E was adjusted to prevent confusion:

      Author response image 2.

      In addition, to avoid any confusion we changed the following sentence on page 4 (changes marked in bold): We designed cysteine mutations in the SBD of OpuA to study interdomain dynamics in the full length transporter.

      (6) "However, the FRET distributions are broader than would be expected from a single FRET state, especially for OpuA-K521C" Have the authors established how a single state FRET of OpuA looks? Is there a control that supports this claim?

      Below we compare two datasets from OpuA-K521C in 600 mM KCl with a typical smFRET dataset from the well-studied substrate-binding protein MBP from E. coli, which resides in a single state. Left: OpuA-K521C; Right: MBP

      Author response image 3.

      We agree that this cannot be assumed from the presented data. Therefore we rewrote this sentence: However, the FRET distributions tail towards higher FRET values, especially OpuA-K521C.

      (7) "V149Q was designed as a mild mutation that would reduce docking efficiency and thereby substrate loading, but leave the intrinsic transport and ATP hydrolysis efficiency intact." I find this statement confusing: How can a mutation reduce docking efficiency yet leave the transport activity unchanged?

      We rewrote the sentences (changes marked in bold): V149Q was designed as a mild mutation that would reduce docking efficiency and thereby substrate loading, but leave the ionic strength sensing in the NBD and the binding of glycine betaine and ATP intact. Accordingly, a reduced docking efficiency should result in a lower absolute glycine betaine-dependent ATPase activity. At the same time the responsiveness of the system to varying KCl, glycine betaine, or Mg-ATP concentrations should not change.

      (8) Along the same lines: "whereas the glycine betaine-, Mg-ATP-, or KCl-dependent activity profiles remain unchanged" vs. "OpuA-V149Q-K521C exhibited a 2- to 3-fold reduction in glycine betainedependent ATPase activity".

      See comment at point 7.

      (9) In general, I find the writing wanting at places, not on par with the high standards set by previous publications of this group.

      We recognize the potential ambiguity in our phrasing. We hope that after incorporating the feedback provided by the reviewers our manuscript will convey our findings in a clearer manner.

      Extra changes to the text:

      (1) Title changed: The substrate-binding domains of the osmoregulatory ABC importer OpuA physically transiently interact

      (2) Second part of the abstract changed: We now show, by means of solution-based single-molecule FRET and analysis with multi-parameter photon-by-photon hidden Markov modeling, that the SBDs transiently interact in an ionic strength-dependent manner. The smFRET data are in accordance with the apparent cooperativity in transport and supported by new cryo-EM data of OpuA. We propose that the physical interactions between SBDs and cooperativity in substrate delivery are part of the transport mechanism.

      (3) Page 6, third paragraph and Figure 2B: the wrong rate number was extracted from table 1. Changed this in the text and figure: 112 s-1  173 s-1. It did not affect any of the interpretations or conclusions.

      (4) Page 8, last paragraph, changed: smFRET was also performed in the absence of KCl and with a saturating concentration of glycine betaine (100 µM). The mean FRET efficiency of the highFRET state of OpuA-K521C increased to 0.78, which corresponds to an inter-dye distance of about 4 nm. This indicates that the dyes at the two SBDs move very close towards each other (Figure 4A) (Table 1) (Supplementary File 34).

      (5) Page 9, second paragraph changed: Due to the inherent flexibility of the SBDs, with respect to both the MSP protein of the nanodisc and the TMDs of OpuA, their resolution is limited. Furthermore, the cryo-EM reconstructions average all the particles in the final dataset, including those with a low and high FRET state. Nevertheless, in both conditions, the densities that correspond to the SBDs can be observed in close proximity (Figure 4D). The distance between the density centers is 6 nm and align with the dimensions of an SBD, providing further evidence for physical interactions between the SBDs.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The association of vitamin D supplementation in reducing Asthma risk is well studied, although the mechanistic basis for this remains unanswered. In the presented study, Kilic and co-authors aim to dissect the pathway of Vitamin D mediated amelioration of allergic airway inflammation. They use initial leads from bioinformatic approaches, which they then associate with results from a clinical trial (VDAART) and then validate them using experimental approaches in murine models. The authors identify a role of VDR in inducing the expression of the key regulator Ikzf3, which possibly suppresses the IL-2/STAT5 axis, consequently blunting the Th2 response and mitigating allergic airway inflammation.

      Strengths:

      The major strength of the paper lies in its interdisciplinary approach, right from hypothesis generation, and linkage with clinical data, as well as in the use of extensive ex vivo experiments and in vivo approaches using knock-out mice.

      The study presents some interesting findings including an inducible baseline absence/minimal expression of VDR in lymphocytes, which could have physiological implications and needs to be explored in future studies.

      Weaknesses:

      The core message of the study relies on the role of vitamin D and its receptor in suppressing the Th2 response. However, there is scope for further dissection of relevant pathophysiological parameters in the in vivo experiments, which would enable stronger translation to allergic airway diseases like Asthma.

      To a large extent, the authors have been successful in validating their results, although a few inferences could be reinforced with additional techniques, or emphasised in the discussion section (possibly utilising the ideas and speculative section offered by the journal).

      The study inferences also need to be read in the context of the different sub-phenotypes and endotypes of Asthma, where the Th2 response may not be predominant. Moreover, the authors have referenced vitamin D doses for the murine models from the VDAART trials and performed the experiments in the second generation of animals. While this is appreciated, the risk of hypervitaminosis-D cannot be ignored, in view of its lipid solubility. Possibly comparison and justification of the doses used in murine experiments from previous literature, as well as the incorporation of an emphasised discussion about the side effects and toxicity of Vitamin D, is an important aspect to consider.

      In no way do the above considerations undermine the importance of this elegant study which justifies trials for vitamin D supplementation and its effects on Asthma. The work possesses tremendous potential.

      We thank the reviewer for their careful assessment of our paper and helpful suggestions. Please find the point-by-point responses to the reviewer recommendations below.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study seeks to advance our knowledge of how vitamin D may be protective in allergic airway disease in both adult and neonatal mouse models. The rationale and starting point are important human clinical, genetic/bioinformatic data, with a proposed role for vitamin D regulation of 2 human chromosomal loci (Chr17q12-21.1 and Chr17q21.2) linked to the risk of immune-mediated/inflammatory disease. The authors have made significant contributions to this work specifically in airway disease/asthma. They link these data to propose a role for vitamin D in regulating IL-2 in Th2 cells implicating genes associated with these loci in this process.

      Strengths:

      Here the authors draw together evidence from multiple lines of investigation to propose that amongst murine CD4+ T cell populations, Th2 cells express high levels of VDR, and that vitamin D regulates many of the genes on the chromosomal loci identified to be of interest, in these cells. The bottom line is the proposal that vitamin D, via Ikfz3/Aiolos, suppresses IL-2 signalling and reduces IL-2 signalling in Th2 cells. This is a novel concept and whilst the availability of IL-2 and the control of IL-2 signalling is generally thought to play a role in the capacity of vitamin D to modulate both effector and especially regulatory T cell populations, this study provides new data.

      Weaknesses:

      Overall, this is a highly complicated paper with numerous strands of investigation, methodologies etc. It is not "easy" reading to follow the logic between each series of experiments and also frequently fine detail of many of the experimental systems used (too numerous to list), which will likely frustrate immunologists interested in this. There is already extensive scientific literature on many aspects of the work presented, much of which is not acknowledged and largely ignored. For example, reports on the effects of vitamin D on Th2 cells are highly contradictory, especially in vitro, even though most studies agree that in vivo effects are largely protective. Similarly, other reports on adult and neonatal models of vitamin D and modulation of allergic airway disease are not referenced. In summary, the data presentation is unwieldy, with numerous supplementary additions, which makes the data difficult to evaluate and the central message lost. Whilst there are novel data of interest to the vitamin D and wider community, this manuscript would benefit from editing to make it much more readily accessible to the reader.

      Wider impact: Strategies to target the IL-2 pathway have long been considered and there is a wealth of knowledge here in autoimmune disease, transplantation, GvHD etc - with some great messages pertinent to the current study. This includes the use of IL-2, including low dose IL-2 to boost Treg but not effector T cell populations, to engineered molecules to target IL-2/IL-2R.

      We thank the reviewer for their careful assessment of our paper and helpful suggestions. Please find the point-by-point responses to the reviewer recommendations below. In addition, we have revisited the Introduction and Discussion, added additional subsection headings, and provided additional schematics to make the general flow of the paper more accessible to a wider audience.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      There are certain aspects of the manuscript which could be revisited in order to provide more clarity to the reader. Some of these are:

      1. In vivo experiments : The major inference and its impact is derived from the effect of VDR on Ikzf3 expression, and consequently on the Th2 response. While the study employs both in vivo and ex vivo approaches to validate this claim, pathophysiological aspects could have been explored in more detail, by using cytokine panels, possibly techniques to measure airway resistance, as well as by reducing the variations in the sample sizes used in different groups. Similarly, certain inferences from ex vivo studies may be important to demonstrate in the in vivo setting as well. A justification for the incorporation of both Balb/c and C57 Bl6 mice for the experiments could also be incorporated in the manuscript.

      2. Certain sections, especially those connecting VDR, Ikzf1/3 and IL2/STAT axis seem associative. This is indicated by Figure 5 H as well, where the effects of calcitriol administration in KO cells indicate additional pathways at play, possibly through indirect effects. The use of additional techniques like ChIP, co-IP and establishing STAT induction/activation would probably strengthen the findings, alternatively, a clear distinction between the speculative and the definitive results could be made in the discussion section, as the journal encourages. Similar considerations could be made for VDR and Ikzf3.

      3. Role of other cells :

      a. While the investigators have explored the phenotype on other cell types like Th1 and Treg, at places there remains a lacuna. For instance, the absence of neutrophil fractions from the DLC-BAL, as well inconsistencies in the groups selected for comparison. For eg. in Figure 3 Supplementary Figure 2, the figure suggests IL13 expression in CD4+ cells, yet the text reads incubated Th2 cells. This could be made more lucid.

      b. In Figure 3 Supplementary Figure 1 there is a trend towards an increase in IL-10 levels, whereas in Supplementary Figure 2 there is a drop in the IL13 level in the VDR KO group, which has not been explained.

      c. While 17q loci form the predominant loci associated with Asthma, other loci important in Asthma on chromosomes 2,6,9, 22 could be discussed in the manuscript as well, even if they can't be explored in depth.

      1. Quantification of histology and confocal images could provide an objective assessment to the readers. Possibly incorporation of co-localisation panels for the IF images showing membrane/cytoplasmic/ nuclear localisation of the VDR under various conditions.

      2. Structure of the manuscript: At places the manuscript has a disrupted flow, as well as mislabelled figures (Figure 2SF1B is 1C, Fig 2c is 2b in the results, ). Flow gates can be arranged sequentially and consistent labelling of the gates and axis would ease interpretation. In some places sample sizes mentioned do not match the dot graphs in the figures (figure 3K-L). In the same figure and others (Figure 5 Supplementary Figure 2), a comparison of all groups would be beneficial. A restructuring of the results and corrections, could assist the reader. Also, a visualization of the VDAART analysis in the main figures, corroborating with the results sections would do justice to the interesting approach and findings. The clearances and approvals for the study also need to be incorporated into the manuscript. If possible, the incorporation of a schematic showing the proposed pathway for VDR-induced Ikzf3 and subsequent suppression of the genes present on Chr 17 loci to mitigate allergic airway inflammation would help.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      A few specific points: A number of immune concepts are studied without reference to the broader literature and the data presented data on occasion counter these earlier findings. Examples of this include:

      • Vitamin D can both enhance and inhibit IL-13 synthesis, demonstrated both in vitro and ex vivo, and these effects are clearly context-specific. I am not questioning the validity of the present experimental findings in this specific experimental model), but the experimental context - the problem is that this is not discussed.

      • Short-term bulk Th2 cultures are used with no indication of their enrichment for lineage-specific markers or cytokine - their conclusions might be enhanced by this. Data on genes/markers of interest could be further enhanced by showing FACS plots of co-expression e.g. Th2 genes e.g. IL-13/GATA3 with these other markers.

      • Are human Th2 enriched for VDR, since the backdrop to this study is human clinical and genetic data? For a study that has based its rationale on human clinical/genetic studies it would be great to confirm these findings in human Th2 cells.

      • The Discussion might comment on some of these wider issues.

      • Minor typos throughout, including in figure legends

      Reviewer #1

      1. The study inferences also need to be read in the context of the different sub-phenotypes and endotypes of Asthma, where the Th2 response may not be predominant.

      We agree that asthma has many sub-phenotypes and endotypes and that the Th2 response may not be predominant in all of them, but we focus here on the origins of the disease in the first few years of life and the genetic and molecular mechanisms associate with disease onset where the Th2 response is important.

      1. Moreover, the authors have referenced vitamin D doses for the murine models from the VDAART trials and performed the experiments in the second generation of animals. While this is appreciated, the risk of hypervitaminosis-D cannot be ignored, in view of its lipid solubility. Possibly comparison and justification of the doses used in murine experiments from previous literature, as well as the incorporation of an emphasized discussion about the side effects and toxicity of Vitamin D, is an important aspect to consider.

      We appreciate this comment from the reviewers allowing us to review vitamin D toxicity in more detail. Given the length of this review we did not include this in the manuscript discussion but provide it here.

      Vitamin D supplementation in humans is debated due to possibility of intoxication from overdose. Vitamin D intoxication is a rare medical condition associated with hypercalcemia, hyperphosphatemia, and suppressed parathyroid hormone level and is typically seen in patients who are receiving very high doses of vitamin D, ranging from 50,000 to 1 million IU/d for several months to years 1,2. Intoxication observed at lower doses might be attributable to rare genetic disorders 1. By far the bigger problem in humans is vitamin D deficiency; this is especially true in pregnant women where dosage requirements are high due to the needs of the fetus. It is estimated that virtually all pregnant women are vitamin D insufficient or deficient 3. VDAART has shown that vitamin D in a dose of 4400 IC given to pregnant women can prevent asthma in their offspring. There were no adverse side effects in the mother or the infant from this dose 4.

      In rodents, a few studies have reported vitamin D intoxication with very high vitamin D doses 5(PMID: 23405058: 50.000 IU/kg 120d -> toxicity in females). In contrast there are several studies using 2-2.5 times higher doses of vitamin D than we use here, that do not report adverse events in mouse models of disease 6,7. Our doses of vitamin D are identical to those used in VDAART and are lower than those used in any of these other rodent studies. In addition, while we did not specifically assess specific signs of vitamin D intoxication, we can exclude any impact on animal well-being, health, reproduction, and behavior throughout the study.

      1. The major inference and its impact are derived from the effect of VDR on Ikzf3 expression, and consequently on the Th2 response. While the study employs both in vivo and ex vivo approaches to validate this claim, pathophysiological aspects could have been explored in more detail, by using cytokine panels, possibly techniques to measure airway resistance, as well as by reducing the variations in the sample sizes used in different groups.

      We have added the following sentence to the discussion: “Additional cytokine measurements in the mice as well as measurement of airway resistance would have added to the pathophysiological data linking IKFZ3 expression to TH2 response.”

      1. Similarly, certain inferences from ex vivo studies may be important to demonstrate in the in vivo setting as well. A justification for the incorporation of both Balb/c and C57 Bl6 mice for the experiments could also be incorporated in the manuscript.

      We agree with the reviewers that ex vivo results may require in vivo confirmation. We have added a sentence explaining the rationale for use of both Balb/c and C57BL/6 mice in the results section “Vitamin D suppresses the activation of the IL-2/Stat5 pathway and cytokine production in Th2 cells”: “To ensure that the above findings were not restricted to the C57BL/6 mouse strain, the inverse experiment was performed in Balb/c mice. This mouse strain is commonly used for type 2 driven inflammation.”

      1. Certain sections, especially those connecting VDR, Ikzf1/3 and IL2/STAT axis seem associative. This is indicated by Figure 5 H as well, where the effects of calcitriol administration in KO cells indicate additional pathways at play, possibly through indirect effects.

      We appreciate this comment. The RNA-Seq results showed an over representation of the IL-2/STAT5 pathway in Vit-D deficient Th2 cells compared to those under Vitamin D supplementation. We further show the induction of IKZF3 expression with calcitriol stimulation. High IKZF3 expression is known to suppress IL-2 expression. Lack of IKZF3 diminishes the suppressive activity of calcitriol on IL-2 expression. However, as pointed out by the reviewer, Figure 5 H implicates additional pathways regulated by calcitriol for the suppression of IL-2 and we note that in the text.

      1. The use of additional techniques like ChIP, co-IP and establishing STAT induction/activation would probably strengthen the findings, alternatively, a clear distinction between the speculative and the definitive results could be made in the discussion section, as the journal encourages. Similar considerations could be made for VDR and Ikzf3.

      We have added the following sentence to the discussion. We have focused here on establishing the relationship between VDR binding and IKFZ3 activation or repression and subsequent ORMDL3 and Il2 activation. Additional use of ChIP or co-IP to establish STAT induction and activation would have been of potential value.

      1. Role of other cells: a. While the investigators have explored the phenotype on other cell types like Th1 and Treg, at places there remains a lacuna. For instance, the absence of neutrophil fractions from the DLC BAL, as well inconsistencies in the groups selected for comparison. For e.g., in Figure 3 Supplementary Figure 2, the figure suggests IL13 expression in CD4+ cells, yet the text reads incubated Th2 cells. This could be made more lucid.

      We appreciate this comment and would like to clarify. Neutrophil numbers were assessed in the presented in vivo models and showed no differences in neutrophil number due to genotype or vitamin D diet. We added the graphs to the supplement in Figure 3 - figure supplement 1A and Figure 5 - figure supplement 1B and refer to the figures in the main text. All in vivo data were analyzed by Mixed-effect ANOVA analysis or Two-way ANOVA test with Holm-Šidák’s post-hoc analysis (factors: genotype & exposure). To keep the plots clear, we incorporated only the statistic for the groups of interest.

      1. b) In Figure 3 Supplementary Figure 1 there is a trend towards an increase in IL-10 levels, whereas in Supplementary Figure 2 there is a drop in the IL13 level in the VDR KO group, which has not been explained.

      We apologize for any confusion. Figure 3 supplementary Figure 1 shows cytokine positive CD4+ T cells isolated from saline and HDM exposed mouse lungs. These data were analyzed with a Mixed-effect ANOVA analysis or Two-way ANOVA test with Holm-Šidák’s post-hoc analysis (factors: genotype & exposure) and were not found significant. Figure 3 supplementary Figure 2 shows IL-13 levels in the system of in vitro polarization of naïve CD4+ T cells into Th2 cells. The difference between this result and the findings in Figure 3H is the in vivo setting in which additional factors such as IL-4 can aggravate the immune response.

      1. c) While 17q loci form the predominant loci associated with Asthma, other loci important in Asthma on chromosomes 2,6,9, 22 could be discussed in the manuscript as well, even if they can't be explored in depth.

      This is an excellent comment. Our preliminary results confirm that three asthma susceptibility loci: 2q12.1 (IL1RL1), 6p21.32 (HLA-DQA1/B1/A2/B2) and 22q12.3 (IL2RB) each have VDR and IKZF3 binding sites either in enhancers predicted by GeneHancer to target these genes or within these genes themselves. In particular, we found (i) VDR binding sites within IL18RAP and in the enhancer region GH02J102301 targeting IL1RL1, and IKZF3 binding sites within IL1RL1; (ii) VDR binding sites in the enhancer regions GH06J032940 and GH06J031813 targeting HLA-DQA2, and IKZF3 binding sites within HLA-DQA1; (iii) VDR and IKZF3 binding sites within IL2RB. In contrast, the region 9p24.1 (IL33) has no documented VDR or IKZF3 binding sites within IL33 or in the promoter regions targeting IL33. Investigating these additional genetic loci further, using the integrative approach taken here with 17q12-21, is beyond the scope of this current manuscript but based on these preliminary results, would be a worthwhile scientific endeavor.

      1. Quantification of histology and confocal images could provide an objective assessment to the readers. Possibly incorporation of co-localisation panels for the IF images showing membrane/cytoplasmic/nuclear localisation of the VDR under various conditions.

      We agree that quantification of histology and confocal images could provide an overview of VDR expression in the lungs. Given the knowledge on VDR expression in a variety of cell types, including structural cells in the lungs and the focus of this manuscript on CD4+ T cells, we focused on determining VDR expression in CD4+ T cells isolated from saline and HDM exposed lungs in the mouse models studied (Figure 2 C; Fig. 2- figure supplement 1 B & C, Figure 3 C; Figure 5 - figure supplement 1) as well as in vitro (Figure 2 - figure supplement 2; Figure 5 - figure supplement 2).

      1. Structure of the manuscript: At places the manuscript has a disrupted flow, as well as mislabeled figures (Figure 2SF1B is 1C, Fig 2c is 2b in the results, ). Flow gates can be arranged sequentially and consistent labelling of the gates and axis would ease interpretation.

      We appreciate this comment and have corrected the mislabeled figures and tried to improve the flow.

      1. In some places sample sizes mentioned do not match the dot graphs in the figures (figure 3K-L). In the same figure and others (Figure 5 Supplementary Figure 2), a comparison of all groups would be beneficial.

      We appreciate this comment and have checked the sample sizes. Each of these experiments compared two groups and these two groups were compared statistically. We corrected the sample size for Figure 5 Supplementary Figure 2 C in the manuscript.

      1. A restructuring of the results and corrections, could assist the reader.

      We have restructured both the results and the discussion, incorporating the changes noted here in the response to the reviewers, to make the flow of the manuscript easier to read.

      1. Also, a visualization of the VDAART analysis in the main figures, corroborating with the results sections would do justice to the interesting approach and findings.

      We have now added the below schematic to Figure 1-figure supplement 1C to summarize the analyses conducted on the VDAART data.

      Author response image 1.

      1. The clearances and approvals for the study also need to be incorporated into the manuscript.

      These were in the checklist and have been moved to the main text of the manuscript.

      1. If possible, the incorporation of a schematic showing the proposed pathway for VDR induced Ikzf3 and subsequent suppression of the genes present on Chr 17 loci to mitigate allergic airway inflammation would help.

      We have a figure for this (below) that we have incorporated into the manuscript as Figure 5 - figure supplement 3:

      Author response image 2.

      Cartoon Summarizing Vitamin D molecular genetics at 17q12-21

      Reviewer #2

      1. A few specific points: A number of immune concepts are studied without reference to the broader literature and the data presented data on occasion counter these earlier findings. Examples of this include:

      a. Vitamin D can both enhance and inhibit IL-13 synthesis, demonstrated both in vitro and ex vivo, and these effects are clearly context-specific. I am not questioning the validity of the present experimental findings in this specific experimental model), but the experimental context - the problem is that this is not discussed.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. We have now included a sentence in the discussion section mentioning the contradictory results. It reads as follows:

      “We acknowledge that the impact of vitamin D on Th2 biology is conflicting in the literature. While several groups report Th2 promoting activity, we, and others, show inhibition of type 2 cytokine production 8–11. These discrepancies could be due to the model system studied, e.g., PBMC and purified CD4+ T cells, or the dose of vitamin D or the mouse strain.”

      b. Short-term bulk Th2 cultures are used with no indication of their enrichment for lineage specific markers or cytokine – their conclusions might be enhanced by this. Data on genes/markers of interest could be further enhanced by showing FACS plots of co-expression e.g., Th2 genes e.g., IL-13/GATA3 with these other markers.

      We appreciate this comment. The in vitro culture system used for Th2 cell differentiation has been well described in the literature. As shown in Figure 3 - figure supplement 2; Figure 4 E and Figure 5 - figure supplement 2 D & E the lineage specific IL-13 cytokine levels are detectable at high levels.

      c. Are human Th2 cells enriched for VDR, since the backdrop to this study is human clinical and genetic data? For a study that has based its rationale on human clinical/genetic studies it would be great to confirm these findings in human Th2 cells.

      We appreciate this comment and are curious to explore this in future research. The VDAART trial is a double-blinded multicenter trial in which an immediate processing of the blood samples and an enrichment of different immune cell populations was not feasible. Other publicly available data sets report gene expression derived from mixed and peripheral (blood) cells and not local (lung) tissues. Published in vitro studies on human Th2 cells do not report VDR expression in comparison to other Th subsets, which would allow the assessment of enrichment.

      1. The Discussion might comment on some of these wider issues.

      We have rewritten the discussion to incorporate many of the issues raised in this review.

      1. Minor typos throughout, including in figure legends.

      We have edited all of the figure legends.

      References

      1. Holick, M. F. Vitamin D Is Not as Toxic as Was Once Thought: A Historical and an Up-to-Date Perspective. Mayo Clinic proceedings 90, 561–564; 10.1016/j.mayocp.2015.03.015 (2015).

      2. Hossein-nezhad, A. & Holick, M. F. Vitamin D for health: a global perspective. Mayo Clinic proceedings 88, 720–755; 10.1016/j.mayocp.2013.05.011 (2013).

      3. Hollis, B. W. & Wagner, C. L. New insights into the vitamin D requirements during pregnancy. Bone research 5, 17030; 10.1038/boneres.2017.30 (2017).

      4. Litonjua, A. A. et al. Effect of Prenatal Supplementation With Vitamin D on Asthma or Recurrent Wheezing in Offspring by Age 3 Years: The VDAART Randomized Clinical Trial. JAMA 315, 362–370; 10.1001/jama.2015.18589 (2016).

      5. Gianforcaro, A., Solomon, J. A. & Hamadeh, M. J. Vitamin D(3) at 50x AI attenuates the decline in paw grip endurance, but not disease outcomes, in the G93A mouse model of ALS, and is toxic in females. PloS one 8, e30243; 10.1371/journal.pone.0030243 (2013).

      6. Landel, V., Millet, P., Baranger, K., Loriod, B. & Féron, F. Vitamin D interacts with Esr1 and Igf1 to regulate molecular pathways relevant to Alzheimer's disease. Molecular neurodegeneration 11, 22; 10.1186/s13024-016-0087-2 (2016).

      7. Agrawal, T., Gupta, G. K. & Agrawal, D. K. Vitamin D supplementation reduces airway hyperresponsiveness and allergic airway inflammation in a murine model. Clinical and experimental allergy : journal of the British Society for Allergy and Clinical Immunology 43, 672–683; 10.1111/cea.12102 (2013).

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors aim to address a critical challenge in the field of bioinformatics: the accurate and efficient identification of protein binding sites from sequences. Their work seeks to overcome the limitations of current methods, which largely depend on multiple sequence alignments or experimental protein structures, by introducing GPSite, a multi-task network designed to predict binding residues of various molecules on proteins using ESMFold.

      Strengths:

      • Benchmarking. The authors provide a comprehensive benchmark against multiple methods, showcasing the performances of a large number of methods in various scenarios.

      • Accessibility and Ease of Use. GPSite is highlighted as a freely accessible tool with user-friendly features on its website, enhancing its potential for widespread adoption in the research community.

      RE: We thank the reviewer for acknowledging the contributions and strengths of our work!

      Weaknesses:

      • Lack of Novelty. The method primarily combines existing approaches and lacks significant technical innovation. This raises concerns about the original contribution of the work in terms of methodological development. Moreover, the paper reproduces results and analyses already presented in previous literature, without providing novel analysis or interpretation. This further diminishes the contribution of this paper to advancing knowledge in the field.

      RE: The novelty of this work is primarily manifested in four key aspects. Firstly, although we have employed several existing tools such as ProtTrans and ESMFold to extract sequence features and predict protein conformations, these techniques were hardly explored in the field of binding site prediction. We have successfully demonstrated the feasibility of substituting multiple sequence alignments with language model embeddings and training with predicted structures, providing a new solution to overcome the limitations of current methods for genome-wide applications. Secondly, though a few methods tend to capture geometric information based on protein surfaces or atom graphs, surface calculation and property mapping are usually time-consuming, while massage passing on full atom graphs is memory-consuming and thus challenging to process long sequences. Besides, these methods are sensitive towards details and errors in the predicted structures. To facilitate large-scale annotations, we have innovatively applied geometric deep learning to protein residue graphs for comprehensively capturing backbone and sidechain geometric contexts in an efficient and effective manner (Figure 1). Thirdly, we have not only exploited multi-task learning to integrate diverse ligands and enhance performance, but also shown its capability to easily extend to the binding site prediction of other unseen ligands (Figure 4 D-E). Last but not least, as a “Tools and Resources” article, we have provided a fast, accurate and user-friendly webserver, as well as constructed a large annotation database for the sequences in Swiss-Prot. Leveraging this database, we have conducted extensive analyses on the associations between binding sites and molecular functions, biological processes, and disease-causing mutations (Figure 5), indicating the potential of our tool to unveil unexplored biology underlying genomic data.

      We have now revised the descriptions in the “The geometry-aware protein binding site predictor (GPSite)” section to highlight the novelty of our work in a clearer manner:

      “In conclusion, GPSite is distinguished from the previous approaches in four key aspects. First, profiting from the effectiveness and low computational cost of ProtTrans and ESMFold, GPSite is liberated from the reliance on MSA and native structures, thus enabling genome-wide binding site prediction. Second, unlike methods that only explore the Cα models of proteins 25,40, GPSite exploits a comprehensive geometric featurizer to fully refine knowledge in the backbone and sidechain atoms. Third, the employed message propagation on residue graphs is global structure-aware and time-efficient compared to the methods based on surface point clouds 21,22, and memory-efficient unlike methods based on full atom graphs 23,24. Residue-based message passing is also less sensitive towards errors in the predicted structures. Last but not least, instead of predicting binding sites for a single molecule type or learning binding patterns separately for different molecules, GPSite applies multi-task learning to better model the latent relationships among different binding partners.”

      • Benchmark Discrepancies. The variation in benchmark results, especially between initial comparisons and those with PeSTo. GPSite achieves a PR AUC of 0.484 on the global benchmark but a PR AUC of 0.61 on the benchmark against PeSTo. For consistency, PeSTo should be included in the benchmark against all other methods. It suggests potential issues with the benchmark set or the stability of the method. This inconsistency needs to be addressed to validate the reliability of the results.

      RE: We thank the reviewer for the constructive comments. Since our performance comparison experiments involved numerous competitive methods whose training sets are disparate, it was difficult to compare or rank all these methods fairly using a single test set. Given the substantial overlap between our protein-binding site test set and the training set of PeSTo, we meticulously re-split our entire protein-protein binding site dataset to generate a new test set that avoids any overlap with the training sets of both GPSite and PeSTo and performed a separate evaluation, where GPSite achieves a higher AUPR than PeSTo (0.610 against 0.433). This is quite common in this field. For instance, in the study of PeSTo (Nat Commun 2023), the comparisons of PeSTo with MaSIF-site, SPPIDER, and PSIVER were conducted using one test set, while the comparison with ScanNet was performed on a separate test set.

      Based on the reviewer’s suggestion, we have now replaced this experiment with a direct comparison with PeSTo using the datasets from PeSTo, in order to enhance the completeness and convincingness of our results. The corresponding descriptions are now added in Appendix 1-note 2, and the results are added in Appendix 2-table 4. For convenience, we also attach the note and table here:

      “Since 340 out of 375 proteins in our protein-protein binding site test set share > 30% identity with the training sequences of PeSTo, we performed a separate comparison between GPSite and PeSTo using the training and test datasets from PeSTo. By re-training with simply the same hyperparameters, GPSite achieves better performance than PeSTo (AUPR of 0.824 against 0.797) as shown in Appendix 2-table 4. Furthermore, when using ESMFold-predicted structures as input, the performance of PeSTo decreases substantially (AUPR of 0.691), and the superiority of our method will be further reflected. As in 24, the performance of ScanNet is also included (AUPR of 0.720), which is also largely outperformed by GPSite.”

      Author response table 1.

      Performance comparison of GPSite with ScanNet and PeSTo on the protein-protein binding site test set from PeSTo 24

      Note: The performance of ScanNet and PeSTo are directly obtained from 24. PeSTo* denotes evaluation using the ESMFold-predicted structures as input. The metrics provided are the median AUPR, median AUC and median MCC. The best/second-best results are indicated by bold/underlined fonts.

      • Interface Definition Ambiguity. There is a lack of clarity in defining the interface for the binding site predictions. Different methods are trained using varying criteria (surfaces in MaSIF-site, distance thresholds in ScanNet). The authors do not adequately address how GPSite's definition aligns with or differs from these standards and how this issue was addressed. It could indicate that the comparison of those methods is unreliable and unfair.

      RE: We thank the reviewer for the comments. The precise definition of ligand-binding sites is elucidated in the “Benchmark datasets” section. Specifically, the datasets of DNA, RNA, peptide, ATP, HEM and metal ions used to train GPSite were collected from the widely acknowledged BioLiP database [PMID: 23087378]. In BioLiP, a binding residue is defined if the smallest atomic distance between the target residue and the ligand is <0.5 Å plus the sum of the Van der Waal’s radius of the two nearest atoms. Meanwhile, most comparative methods regarding these ligands were also trained on data from BioLiP, thereby ensuring fair comparisons.

      However, since BioLiP does not include data on protein-protein binding sites, studies for protein-protein binding site prediction may adopt slightly distinct label definitions, as the reviewer suggested. Here, we employed the protein-protein binding site data from our previous study [PMID: 34498061], where a protein-binding residue was defined as a surface residue (relative solvent accessibility > 5%) that lost more than 1 Å2 absolute solvent accessibility after protein-protein complex formation. This definition was initially introduced in PSIVER [PMID: 20529890] and widely applied in various studies (e.g., PMID: 31593229, PMID: 32840562). SPPIDER [PMID: 17152079] and MaSIF-site [PMID: 31819266] have also adopted similar surface-based definitions as PSIVER. On the other hand, ScanNet [PMID: 35637310] employed an atom distance threshold of 4 Å to define contacts while PeSTo [PMID: 37072397] used a threshold of 5 Å. However, it is noteworthy that current methods in this field including ScanNet (Nat Methods 2022) and PeSTo (Nat Commun 2023) directly compared methods using different label definitions without any alignment in their benchmark studies, likely due to the subtle distinctions among these definitions. For instance, the study of PeSTo directly performed comparisons with ScanNet, MaSIF-site, SPPIDER, and PSIVER. Therefore, we followed these previous works, directly comparing GPSite with other protein-protein binding site predictors.

      In the revised “Benchmark datasets” section, we have now provided more details for the binding site definitions in different datasets to avoid any potential ambiguity:

      “The benchmark datasets for evaluating binding site predictions of DNA, RNA, peptide, ATP, and HEM are constructed from BioLiP”; “A binding residue is defined if the smallest atomic distance between the target residue and the ligand is < 0.5 Å plus the sum of the Van der Waal’s radius of the two nearest atoms”; “Besides, the benchmark dataset of protein-protein binding sites is directly from 26, which contains non-redundant transient heterodimeric protein complexes dated up to May 2021. Surface regions that become solvent inaccessible on complex formation are defined as the ground truth protein-binding sites. The benchmark datasets of metal ion (Zn2+, Ca2+, Mg2+ and Mn2+) binding sites are directly from 18, which contain non-redundant proteins dated up to December 2021 from BioLiP.”

      While GPSite demonstrates the potential to surpass state-of-the-art methods in protein binding site prediction, the evidence supporting these claims seems incomplete. The lack of methodological novelty and the unresolved questions in benchmark consistency and interface definition somewhat undermine the confidence in the results. Therefore, it's not entirely clear if the authors have fully achieved their aims as outlined.

      The work is useful for the field, especially in disease mechanism elucidation and novel drug design. The availability of genome-scale binding residue annotations GPSite offers is a significant advancement. However, the utility of this tool could be hampered by the aforementioned weaknesses unless they are adequately addressed.

      RE: We thank the reviewer for acknowledging the advancement and value of our work, as well as pointing out areas where improvements can be made. As discussed above, we have now carried out the corresponding revisions in the revised manuscript to enhance the completeness and clearness of our work.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This work provides a new framework, "GPsite" to predict DNA, RNA, peptide, protein, ATP, HEM, and metal ions binding sites on proteins. This framework comes with a webserver and a database of annotations. The core of the model is a Geometric featurizer neural network that predicts the binding sites of a protein. One major contribution of the authors is the fact that they feed this neural network with predicted structure from ESMFold for training and prediction (instead of native structure in similar works) and a high-quality protein Language Model representation. The other major contribution is that it provides the public with a new light framework to predict protein-ligand interactions for a broad range of ligands.

      The authors have demonstrated the interest of their framework with mostly two techniques: ablation and benchmark.

      Strengths:

      • The performance of this framework as well as the provided dataset and web server make it useful to conduct studies.

      • The ablations of some core elements of the method, such as the protein Language Model part, or the input structure are very insightful and can help convince the reader that every part of the framework is necessary. This could also guide further developments in the field. As such, the presentation of this part of the work can hold a more critical place in this work.

      RE: We thank the reviewer for recognizing the contributions of our work and for noting that our experiments are thorough.

      Weaknesses:

      • Overall, we can acknowledge the important effort of the authors to compare their work to other similar frameworks. Yet, the lack of homogeneity of training methods and data from one work to the other makes the comparison slightly unconvincing, as the authors pointed out. Overall, the paper puts significant effort into convincing the reader that the method is beating the state of the art. Maybe, there are other aspects that could be more interesting to insist on (usability, interest in protein engineering, and theoretical works).

      RE: We sincerely appreciate the reviewer for the constructive and insightful comments. As to the concern of training data heterogeneity raised by the reviewer, it is noteworthy that current studies in this field, such as ScanNet (Nat Methods 2022) and PeSTo (Nat Commun 2023), directly compare methods trained on different datasets in their benchmark experiments. Therefore, we have adhered to the paradigm in these previous works. According to the detailed recommendations by the reviewer, we have now improved our manuscript by incorporating additional ablation studies regarding the effects of training procedure and language model representations, as well as case studies regarding the predicted structure’s quality and GPSite-based function annotations. We have also refined the Discussion section to focus more on the achievements of this work. A comprehensive point-by-point response to the reviewer’s recommendations is provided below.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Major comments:

      Overall I think the work is slightly deserved by its presentation. Some improvements could be made to the paper to better highlight the significance of your contribution.

      RE: We thank the reviewer for recognizing the significance of our work!

      • Line 188: "As expected, the performance of these methods mostly decreases substantially utilizing predicted structures for testing because they were trained with high-quality native structures.

      This is a major ablation that was not performed in this case. You used the predicted structure to train, while the other did not. One better way to assess the interest of this approach would be to compare the performance of a network trained with only native structure to compare the leap in performance with and without this predicted structure as you did after to assess the interest of some other aspect of your method such as single to multitask.

      RE: We thank the reviewer for the valuable recommendation. We have now assessed the benefit of training with predicted instead of native structures, which brings an average AUPR increase of 4.2% as detailed in Appendix 1-note 5 and Appendix 2-table 9. For convenience, we also attach the note and table here:

      “We examined the performance under different training and evaluation settings as shown in Appendix 2-table 9. As expected, the model yields exceptional performance (average AUPR of 0.656) when trained and evaluated using native structures. However, if this model is fed with predicted structures of the test proteins, the performance substantially declines to an average AUPR of 0.573. This trend aligns with the observations for other structure-based methods as illustrated in Figure 2. More importantly, in the practical scenario where only predicted structures are available for the target proteins, training the model with predicted structures (i.e., GPSite) results in superior performance than training the model with native structures (average AUPR of 0.594 against 0.573), probably owing to the consistency between the training and testing data. For completeness, the results in Appendix 3-figure 2 are also included where GPSite is tested with native structures (average AUPR of 0.637).”

      Author response table 2.

      Performance comparison on the ten binding site test sets under different training and evaluation settings

      Note: The numbers in this table are AUPR values. “Pep” and “Pro” denote peptide and protein, respectively. “Avg” means the average AUPR values among the ten test sets. “native” and “predicted” denote applying native and predicted structures as input, respectively.

      • Line 263: "ProtTrans consistently obtains competitive or superior performance compared to the MSA profiles, particularly for the target proteins with few homologous sequences (Neff < 2)."

      This seems a bit far-fetched. If we see clearly in the figure that the performances are far superior for Neff < 2. The performances seem rather similar for higher Neff. Could the author evaluate numerically the significance of the improvement? MSA profiles outperform GPSite on 4 intervals and I don't know the distribution of the data.

      RE: We thank the reviewer for the valuable suggestion. We have now revised this sentence to avoid any potential ambiguity:

      “As evidenced in Figure 4B and Appendix 2-table 8, ProtTrans consistently obtains competitive or superior performance compared to the MSA profile. Notably, for the target proteins with few homologous sequences (Neff < 2), ProtTrans surpasses MSA profile significantly with an improvement of 3.9% on AUC (P-value = 4.3×10-8).”

      The detailed significance tests and data distribution are now added in Appendix 2-table 8 and attached below as Author response-table 3 for convenience:

      Author response table 3.

      Performance comparison between GPSite and the baseline model using MSA profile for proteins with different Neff values in the combined test set of the ten ligands

      Note: Significance tests are performed following the procedure in 12,25. If P-value < 0.05, the difference between the performance is considered statistically significant.

      • Line 285: "We first visualized the distributions of residues in this dataset using t-SNE, where the residues are encoded by raw feature vectors encompassing ProtTrans embeddings and DSSP structural properties, or latent embedding vectors from the shared network of GPSite. "

      Wouldn't embedding from single-task be more relevant to show the interest of multi-task training here? Is the difference that big when comparing embeddings from single-task training to embeddings from multi-task training? Otherwise, I think the evidence from Figure 4e is sufficient, the interest of multitasking could be well-shown by single-task vs. multi-task AUPR and a few examples or predictions that are improved.

      RE: We thank the reviewer for the comment. In the second paragraph of the “The effects of protein features and model designs” section, we have compared the performance of multi-task and single-task learning. However, the visualization results in Figure 4D are related to the third paragraph, where we conducted a downstream exploration of the possibility to extend GPSite to other unseen ligands. This is based on the hypothesis that the shared network in GPSite may have captured certain common ligand-binding mechanisms during the preceding multi-task training process. We visualized the distributions of residues in an unseen carbohydrate-binding site dataset using t-SNE, where the residues are encoded by raw feature vectors (ProtTrans and DSSP), or latent embedding vectors from the shared network trained before. Although the shared network has not been specifically trained on the carbohydrate dataset, the latent representations from GPSite effectively improve the discriminability between the binding and non-binding residues as shown in Figure 4D. This finding indicates that the shared network trained on the initial set of ten molecule types has captured common binding mechanisms and may be applied to other unseen ligands.

      We have now added more descriptions in this paragraph to avoid potential ambiguity:

      “Residues that are conserved during evolution, exposed to solvent, or inside a pocket-shaped domain are inclined to participate in ligand binding. During the preceding multi-task training process, the shared network in GPSite should have learned to capture such common binding mechanisms. Here we show how GPSite can be easily extended to the binding site prediction for other unseen ligands by adopting the pre-trained shared network as a feature extractor. We considered a carbohydrate-binding site dataset from 54 which contains 100 proteins for training and 49 for testing. We first visualized the distributions of residues in this dataset using t-SNE 55, where the residues are encoded by raw feature vectors encompassing ProtTrans embeddings and DSSP structural properties, or latent embedding vectors from the shared network of GPSite trained on the ten molecule types previously.”

      • Line291: "Employing these informative hidden embeddings as input features to train a simple MLP exhibits remarkable performance with an AUC of 0.881 (Figure 4E), higher than that of training a single-task version of GPSite from scratch (AUC of 0.853) or other state-of-the-art methods such as MTDsite and SPRINT-CBH."

      Is it necessary to introduce other methods here? The single-task vs multi-task seems enough for what you want to show?

      RE: We thank the reviewer for the comment. As discussed above, here we aim to show the potential of GPSite for the binding site prediction of unseen ligand (i.e., carbohydrate) by adopting the pre-trained shared network as a feature extractor. Thus, we think it’s reasonable to also include the performance of other state-of-the-art methods in this carbohydrate benchmark dataset as baselines.

      • Line 321: "Specifically, a protein-level binding score can be generated for each ligand by averaging the top k predicted scores among all residues. Empirically, we set k to 5 for metal ions and 10 for other ligands, considering that the binding interfaces of metal ions are usually smaller."

      Since binding sites are usually not localized on one single amino-acid, we can expect that most of the top k residues are localized around the same area of the protein both spatially and along the sequence. Is it something you observe and could consider in your method?

      RE: We thank the reviewer for the comment. We employed a straightforward method (top-k average) to convert GPSite’s residue-level annotations into protein-level annotations, where k was set empirically based on the distributions of the numbers of binding residues per sequence observed in the training set. We have not put much effort in optimizing this strategy since it mainly serves as a proof-of-concept experiment (Figure 5 A-C) to show the potential of GPSite in discriminating ligand-binding proteins. We have now revised this sentence to better explain how we selected k:

      “Specifically, a protein-level binding score indicating the overall binding propensity to a specific ligand can be generated by averaging the top k predicted scores among all residues. Empirically, we set k to 5 for metal ions and 10 for other ligands, considering the distributions of the numbers of binding residues per sequence observed in the training set.”

      As for the question raised by the reviewer, we can indeed expect that most of the top k predicted binding residues tend to cluster into several but not necessarily one area. For instance, certain macromolecules like DNA may interact with several protein surface patches due to their elongated structures (e.g., Author esponse-figure 1A). Another case may be a protein binding to multiple molecules of the same ligand type (e.g., Author response-figure 1B).

      Author response image 1.

      The structures of 4XQK (A) and 4KYW (B) in PDB.

      • Line 327: The accuracy of the GPSite protein-level binding scores is further validated by the ROC curves in Figure 5B, where GPSite achieves satisfactory AUC values for all ligands except protein (AUC of 0.608).

      Here may be a good place to compare yourself with others, do other frameworks experience the same problem? If so, AUC and AUPR are not relevant here, can you expose some recall scores for example?

      RE: We thank the reviewer for the valuable recommendation. We have conducted comprehensive method comparisons in the preceding “GPSite outperforms state-of-the-art methods” section, where GPSite surpasses all existing frameworks across various ligands. Here, the genome-wide analyses of Swiss-Prot in Figure 5 serve as a downstream demonstration of GPSite’s capacity for large-scale annotations. We didn’t compare with other methods since most of them are time-consuming or memory-consuming, thus unavailable to process sequences of substantial quantity or length. For example, it takes about 8 min for the MSA-based method GraphBind to annotate a protein with 500 residues, while it just takes about 20 s for GPSite (see Appendix 3-figure 1 for detailed runtime comparison). It is also challenging for the atom-graph-based method PeSTo to process structures more than 100 kDa (~1000 residues) on a 32 GB GPU as the authors suggested, while GPSite can easily process structures containing up to 2500 residues on a 16 GB GPU.

      Regarding the recall score mentioned by the reviewer, GPSite achieves a recall of 0.95 (threshold = 0.5) for identifying protein-binding proteins. This indicates that GPSite can accurately identify positive samples, but it also tends to misclassify negative samples as positive. In our original manuscript, we claimed that “This may be ascribed to the fact that protein-protein interactions are ubiquitous in living organisms while the Swiss-Prot function annotations are incomplete”. To better support this claim, we have now added two examples in Appendix 1-note 7, where GPSite confidently predicted the presences of the “protein binding” function (GO:0005515). Notably, this function was absent in these two proteins in the Swiss-Prot database at the time of manuscript preparation (release: 2023-05-03), but has been included in the latest release of Swiss-Prot (release: 2023-11-08). For convenience, we also attach the note here:

      “As depicted in Figure 5A, GPSite assigns relatively high prediction scores to the proteins without “protein binding” function in the Swiss-Prot annotations, leading to a modest AUC value of 0.608 (Figure 5B). This may be ascribed to the fact that protein-protein interactions are ubiquitous in living organisms while the Swiss-Prot function annotations are incomplete. To support this hypothesis, we present two proteins as case studies, both sharing < 20% sequence identity with the protein-binding training set of GPSite. The first case is Aminodeoxychorismate synthase component 2 from Escherichia coli (UniProt ID: P00903). GPSite confidently predicted this protein as a protein-binding protein with a high prediction score of 0.936. Notably, this protein was not annotated with the “protein binding” function (GO:0005515) or any of its GO child terms in the Swiss-Prot database at the time of manuscript preparation (https://rest.uniprot.org/unisave/P00903?format=txt&versions=171, release: 2023-05-03). However, in the latest release of Swiss-Prot (https://rest.uniprot.org/unisave/P00903?format=txt&versions=174, release: 2023-11-08) during manuscript revision, this protein is annotated with the “protein heterodimerization activity” function (GO:0046982), which is a child term of “protein binding”. In fact, the heterodimerization activity of this protein has been validated through experiments in the year of 1996 (PMID: 8679677), indicating the potential incompleteness of the Swiss-Prot annotations. The other case is Hydrogenase-2 operon protein HybE from Escherichia coli (UniProt ID: P0AAN1), which was also predicted as a protein-binding protein by GPSite (score = 0.909). Similarly, this protein was not annotated with the “protein binding” function in the Swiss-Prot database at the time of manuscript preparation (https://rest.uniprot.org/unisave/P0AAN1?format=txt&versions=108). However, in the latest release of Swiss-Prot (https://rest.uniprot.org/unisave/P0AAN1?format=txt&versions=111), this protein is annotated with the “preprotein binding” function (GO:0070678), which is a child term of “protein binding”. In fact, the preprotein binding function of this protein has been validated through experiments in the year of 2003 (PMID: 12914940). These cases demonstrate the effectiveness of GPSite for completing the missing function annotations in Swiss-Prot.”

      • Line 381: 'Despite the noteworthy advancements achieved by GPSite, there remains scope for further improvements. Given that the ESM Metagenomic Atlas 34 provides 772 million predicted protein structures along with pre-computed language model embeddings, self-supervised learning can be employed to train a GPSite model for predicting masked sequence and structure attributes, or maximizing the similarity between the learned representations of substructures from identical proteins while minimizing the similarity between those from different proteins using a contrastive loss function training from scratch. Additional opportunities for upgrade exist within the network architecture. For example, a variational Expectation-Maximization (EM) framework 58 can be adopted to handle the hierarchical graph structure inherent in proteins, which contains the top view of the residue graph and the bottom view of the atom graph inside a residue. Such an EM procedure enables training two separate graph neural networks for the two views while simultaneously allowing interaction and mutual enhancement between the two modules. Meta-learning could also be explored in this multi-task scenario, which allows fast adaptation to unseen tasks with limited labels.'

      I think this does not belong here. It feels like half of your discussion is not talking about the achievements of this paper but future very specific directions. Focus on the take-home arguments (performances of the model, ability to predict a large range of tasks, interest in key components of your model, easy use) of the paper and possible future direction but without being so specific.

      RE: We thank the reviewer for the valuable suggestion. We have now simplified the discussions on the future directions notably:

      “Despite the noteworthy advancements achieved by GPSite, there remains scope for further improvements. GPSite may be improved by pre-training on the abundant predicted structures in ESM Metagenomic Atlas, and then fine-tuning on binding site datasets. Besides, the hidden embeddings from ESMFold may also serve as informative protein representations. Additional opportunities for upgrade exist within the network architecture. For example, a variational Expectation-Maximization framework can be adopted to handle the hierarchical atom-to-residue graph structure inherent in proteins. Meta-learning could also be explored in this multi-task scenario, which allows fast adaptation to unseen tasks with limited labels.”

      • Overall there is also a lack of displayed structure. You should try to select a few examples of binding sites that were identified correctly by your method and not by others, if possible get some insights on why. Also, some negative examples could be interesting so as to have a better idea of the interest.

      RE: We thank the reviewer for the valuable recommendation. We have performed a case study for the structure of the glucocorticoid receptor in Figure 3 D-H to illustrate a potential reason for the robustness of GPSite. Moreover, we have now added a case study in Appendix 1-note 3 and Appendix 3-figure 5 to explain why GPSite sometimes is not as accurate as the state-of-the-art structure-based method. For convenience, we also attach the note and figure here:

      “Here we present an example of an RNA-binding protein, i.e., the ribosome biogenesis protein ERB1 (PDB: 7R6Q, chain m), to illustrate the impact of predicted structure’s quality. As shown in Appendix 3-figure 5, ERB1 is an integral component of a large multimer structure comprising protein and RNA chains (i.e., the state E2 nucleolar 60S ribosome biogenesis intermediate). Likely due to the neglect of interactions from other protein chains, ESMFold fails to predict the correct conformation of the ERB1 chain (TM-score = 0.24). Using this incorrect predicted structure, GPSite achieves an AUPR of 0.580, lower than GraphBind input with the native structure (AUPR = 0.636). However, the performance of GraphBind substantially declines to an AUPR of 0.468 when employing the predicted structure as input. Moreover, if GPSite adopts the native structure for prediction, a notable performance boost can be obtained (AUPR = 0.681).”

      Author response image 2.

      The prediction results of GPSite and GraphBind for the ribosome biogenesis protein ERB1. (A) The state E2 nucleolar 60S ribosome biogenesis intermediate (PDB: 7R6Q). The ribosome biogenesis protein ERB1 (chain m) is highlighted in blue, while other protein chains are colored in gray. The RNA chains are shown in orange. (B) The RNA-binding sites on ERB1 (colored in red). (C) The ESMFold-predicted structure of ERB1 (TM-score = 0.24). The RNA-binding sites are also mapped onto this predicted structure (colored in red). (D-G) The prediction results of GPSite and GraphBind for the predicted and native ERB1 structures. The confidence of the predictions is represented with a gradient of color from blue for non-binding to red for binding.

      Minor comments:

      • Line 169: "Note that since our test sets may partly overlap with the training sets of these methods, the results reported here should be the upper limits for the existing methods."

      Yes, but they were potentially not trained on the most recent structures in that case. These methods could also see improved performance with an updated training set.

      RE: We thank the reviewer for the comment. We have now deleted this sentence.

      • Line176: "Since 358 of the 375 proteins in our protein-binding site test set share > 30% identity with the training sequences of PeSTo, we re-split our protein-binding dataset to generate a test set of 65 proteins sharing < 30% identity with the training set of PeSTo for a fair evaluation."

      Too specific to be here in my opinion.

      RE: We thank the reviewer for the comment. We have now moved these details to Appendix 1-note 2. The description in the main text here is now more concise:

      “Given the substantial overlap between our protein-binding site test set and the training set of PeSTo, we conducted separate training and comparison using the datasets of PeSTo, where GPSite still demonstrates a remarkable improvement over PeSTo (Appendix 1-note 2).”

      • Figure 2. The authors should try to either increase Fig A's size or increase the font size. This could probably be done by compressing the size of Figure C into a single figure.

      RE: We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We have now increased the font size in Figure A. Besides, the figures in the final version of the manuscript should be clearer where we could upload SVG files.

      • Have you tried using embeddings from more structure-aware pLM such as ESM Fold embeddings (fine-tuned) or ProstTrans (that may be more recent than this study)?

      RE: We thank the reviewer for the insightful comment. We have not yet explored the embeddings from structure-aware pLM, but we acknowledge its potential as a promising avenue for future investigation. We have now added this point in our Discussion section:

      “Besides, the hidden embeddings from ESMFold may also serve as informative protein representations.”

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary

      The authors of this work aim to address the challenge of accurately and efficiently identifying protein binding sites from sequences. They recognize that the limitations of current methods, including reliance on multiple sequence alignments or experimental protein structure, and the under-explored geometry of the structure, which limit the performance and genome-scale applications. The authors have developed a multi-task network called GPSite that predicts binding residues for a range of biologically relevant molecules, including DNA, RNA, peptides, proteins, ATP, HEM, and metal ions, using a combination of sequence embeddings from protein language models and ESMFold-predicted structures. Their approach attempts to extract residual and relational geometric contexts in an end-to-end manner, surpassing current sequence-based and structure-based methods.

      Strengths

      • The GPSite model's ability to predict binding sites for a wide variety of molecules, including DNA, RNA, peptides, and various metal ions.

      • Based on the presented results, GPSite outperforms state-of-the-art methods in several benchmark datasets.

      • GPSite adopts predicted structures instead of native structures as input, enabling the model to be applied to a wider range of scenarios where native structures are rare.

      • The authors emphasize the low computational cost of GPSite, which enables rapid genome-scale binding residue annotations, indicating the model's potential for large-scale applications.

      RE: We thank the reviewer for recognizing the significance and value of our work!

      Weaknesses

      • One major advantage of GPSite, as claimed by the authors, is its efficiency. Although the manuscript mentioned that the inference takes about 5 hours for all datasets, it remains unclear how much improvement GPSite can offer compared with existing methods. A more detailed benchmark comparison of running time against other methods is recommended (including the running time of different components, since some methods like GPSite use predicted structures while some use native structures).

      RE: We thank the reviewer for the valuable suggestion. Empirically, it takes about 5-20 min for existing MSA-based methods to make predictions for a protein with 500 residues, while it only takes about 1 min for GPSite (including structure prediction). However, it is worth noting that some predictors in our benchmark study are solely available as webservers, and it is challenging to compare the runtime between a standalone program and a webserver due to the disparity in hardware configurations. Therefore, we have now included comprehensive runtime comparisons between the GPSite webserver and other top-performing servers in Appendix 3-figure 1 to illustrate the practicality and efficiency of our method. For convenience, we also attach the figure here as Author response-figure 3. The corresponding description is now added in the “GPSite outperforms state-of-the-art methods” section:

      “Moreover, GPSite is computationally efficient, achieving comparable or faster prediction speed compared to other top-performing methods (Appendix 3-figure 1).”

      Author response image 3.

      Runtime comparison of the GPSite webserver with other top-performing servers. Five protein chains (i.e., 8HN4_B, 8USJ_A, 8C1U_A, 8K3V_A and 8EXO_A) comprising 100, 300, 500, 700, and 900 residues, respectively, were selected for testing, and the average runtime is reported for each method. Note that a significant portion of GPSite’s runtime (75 s, indicated in orange) is allocated to structure prediction using ESMFold.

      • Since the model uses predicted protein structure, the authors have conducted some studies on the effect of the predicted structure's quality. However, only the 0.7 threshold was used. A more comprehensive analysis with several different thresholds is recommended.

      RE: We thank the reviewer for the comment. We assessed the effect of the predicted structure's quality by evaluating GPSite’s performance on high-quality (TM-score > 0.7) and low-quality (TM-score ≤ 0.7) predicted structures. We did not employ multiple thresholds (e.g., 0.3, 0.5, and 0.7), as the majority of proteins in the test sets were accurately predicted by ESMFold. Specifically, as shown in Figure 3B, Appendix 3-figure 3 and Appendix 2-table 5, the numbers of proteins with TM-score ≤ 0.7 are small in most datasets (e.g., 42 for DNA and 17 for ATP). Consequently, there is insufficient data available for analysis with lower thresholds, except for the RNA test set. Notably, Figure 3C presents a detailed inspection of the 104 proteins with TM-score < 0.5 in the RNA test set. Within this subset, GPSite consistently outperforms the state-of-the-art structure-based method GraphBind with predicted structures as input, regardless of the prediction quality of ESMFold. Only in cases where structures are predicted with extremely low quality (TM-score < 0.3) does GPSite fall behind GraphBind input with native structures. This result further demonstrates the robustness of GPSite. We have now added clearer explanations in the “GPSite is robust for low-quality predicted structures” section:

      “Figure 3B and Appendix 3-figure 3 show the distributions of TM-scores between native and predicted structures calculated by US-align in the ten benchmark datasets, where most proteins are accurately predicted with TM-score > 0.7 (see also Appendix 2-table 5)”; “Given the infrequency of low-quality predicted structures except for the RNA test set, we took a closer inspection of the 104 proteins with predicted structures of TM-score < 0.5 in the RNA test set.”

      • To demonstrate the robustness of GPSite, the authors performed a case study on human GR containing two zinc fingers, where the predicted structure is not perfect. The analysis could benefit from more a detailed explanation of why the model can still infer the binding site correctly even though the input structural information is slightly off.

      RE: We thank the reviewer for the comment. We have actually explained the potential reason for the robustness of GPSite in the second paragraph of the “GPSite is robust for low-quality predicted structures” section. In summary, although the whole structure of this protein is not perfectly predicted, the local structures of the binding domains of peptide, DNA and Zn2+ are actually predicted accurately as evidenced by the superpositions of the native and predicted structures in Figure 3D and 3E. Therefore, GPSite can still make reliable predictions. We have now revised this paragraph to explain these more clearly:

      “Figure 3D shows the structure of the human glucocorticoid receptor (GR), a transcription factor that binds DNA and assembles a coactivator peptide to regulate gene transcription (PDB: 7PRW, chain A). The DNA-binding domain of GR also consists of two C4-type zinc fingers to bind Zn2+ ions. Although the structure of this protein is not perfectly predicted (TM-score = 0.72), the local structures of the binding domains of peptide and DNA are actually predicted accurately as viewed by the superpositions of the native and predicted structures in Figure 3D and 3E. Therefore, GPSite can correctly predict all Zn2+ binding sites and precisely identify the binding sites of DNA and peptide with AUPR values of 0.949 and 0.924, respectively (Figure 3F, G and H).”

      • To analyze the relatively low AUC value for protein-protein interactions, the authors claimed that it is "due to the fact that protein-protein interactions are ubiquitous in living organisms while the Swiss-Prot function annotations are incomplete", which is unjustified. It is highly recommended to support this claim by showing at least one example where GPSite's prediction is a valid binding site that is not present in the current Swiss-Prot database or via other approaches.

      RE: We thank the reviewer for the valuable recommendation. To support this claim, we have now added two examples in Appendix 1-note 7, where GPSite confidently predicted the presences of the “protein binding” function (GO:0005515). Notably, this function was absent in these two proteins in the Swiss-Prot database at the time of manuscript preparation (release: 2023-05-03), but has been included in the latest release of Swiss-Prot (release: 2023-11-08). For convenience, we also attach the note below:

      “As depicted in Figure 5A, GPSite assigns relatively high prediction scores to the proteins without “protein binding” function in the Swiss-Prot annotations, leading to a modest AUC value of 0.608 (Figure 5B). This may be ascribed to the fact that protein-protein interactions are ubiquitous in living organisms while the Swiss-Prot function annotations are incomplete. To support this hypothesis, we present two proteins as case studies, both sharing < 20% sequence identity with the protein-binding training set of GPSite. The first case is Aminodeoxychorismate synthase component 2 from Escherichia coli (UniProt ID: P00903). GPSite confidently predicted this protein as a protein-binding protein with a high prediction score of 0.936. Notably, this protein was not annotated with the “protein binding” function (GO:0005515) or any of its GO child terms in the Swiss-Prot database at the time of manuscript preparation (https://rest.uniprot.org/unisave/P00903?format=txt&versions=171, release: 2023-05-03). However, in the latest release of Swiss-Prot (https://rest.uniprot.org/unisave/P00903?format=txt&versions=174, release: 2023-11-08) during manuscript revision, this protein is annotated with the “protein heterodimerization activity” function (GO:0046982), which is a child term of “protein binding”. In fact, the heterodimerization activity of this protein has been validated through experiments in the year of 1996 (PMID: 8679677), indicating the potential incompleteness of the Swiss-Prot annotations. The other case is Hydrogenase-2 operon protein HybE from Escherichia coli (UniProt ID: P0AAN1), which was also predicted as a protein-binding protein by GPSite (score = 0.909). Similarly, this protein was not annotated with the “protein binding” function in the Swiss-Prot database at the time of manuscript preparation (https://rest.uniprot.org/unisave/P0AAN1?format=txt&versions=108). However, in the latest release of Swiss-Prot (https://rest.uniprot.org/unisave/P0AAN1?format=txt&versions=111), this protein is annotated with the “preprotein binding” function (GO:0070678), which is a child term of “protein binding”. In fact, the preprotein binding function of this protein has been validated through experiments in the year of 2003 (PMID: 12914940). These cases demonstrate the effectiveness of GPSite for completing the missing function annotations in Swiss-Prot.”

      • The authors reported that many GPSite-predicted binding sites are associated with known biological functions. Notably, for RNA-binding sites, there is a significantly higher proportion of translation-related binding sites. The analysis could benefit from a further investigation into this observation, such as the analyzing the percentage of such interactions in the training site. In addition, if there is sufficient data, it would also be interesting to see the cross-interaction-type performance of the proposed model, e.g., train the model on a dataset excluding specific binding sites and test its performance on that class of interactions.

      RE: We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We would like to clarify that the analysis in Figure 5C was conducted at “protein-level” instead of “residue-level”. As described in the second paragraph of the “Large-scale binding site annotation for Swiss-Prot” section, a protein-level ligand-binding score was assigned to a protein by averaging the top k residue-level predicted binding scores. This protein-level score indicates the overall binding propensity of the protein to a specific ligand. We gathered the top 20,000 proteins with the highest protein-level binding scores for each ligand and found that their biological process annotations from Swiss-Prot were consistent with existing knowledge. We have now revised the corresponding sentence to explain these more clearly:

      “Exploiting the residue-level binding site annotations, we could readily extend GPSite to discriminate between binding and non-binding proteins of various ligands. Specifically, a protein-level binding score indicating the overall binding propensity to a specific ligand can be generated by averaging the top k predicted scores among all residues.”

      As for the cross-interaction-type performance raised by the reviewer, we have now conducted cross-type evaluations to investigate the specificity of the ligand-specific MLPs and the inherent similarities among different ligands in Appendix 1-note 6 and Appendix 2-table 10. For convenience, we also attach the note and table here:

      “We conducted cross-type evaluations by applying different ligand-specific MLPs in GPSite for the test sets of different ligands. As shown in Appendix 2-table 10, for each ligand-binding site test set, the corresponding ligand-specific network consistently achieves the best performance. This indicates that the ligand-specific MLPs have specifically learned the binding patterns of particular molecules. We also noticed that the cross-type performance is reasonable for the ligands sharing similar properties. For instance, the DNA-specific MLP exhibits a reasonable AUPR when predicting RNA-binding sites, and vice versa. Similar trends are also observed between peptide and protein, as well as among metal ions as expected. Interestingly, the cross-type performance between ATP and HEM is also acceptable, potentially attributed to their comparable molecular weights (507.2 and 616.5, respectively).”

      Author response table 4.

      Cross-type performance by applying different ligand-specific MLPs in GPSite for the test sets of different ligands

      Note: “Pep” and “Pro” denote peptide and protein, respectively. The numbers in this table are AUPR values. The best/second-best result in each test set is indicated by bold/underlined font.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We are pleased to send you a revised version of our manuscript entitled “voyAGEr: free web interface for the analysis of age-related gene expression alterations in human tissues” and the associated shiny web app, in which we incorporate the referees’ feedback. We would like to express our gratitude for their time and valuable insights, which have contributed to the improvement of our work. We appreciate the rigorous evaluation process that eLife maintains.

      In this letter, we address each of the reviewers' comments and concerns, point-by-point, offering detailed responses and clarifications. We have made several revisions to our manuscript following their recommendations.

      We must note that the revised version of the manuscript has two novel joint first authors, Rita Martins-Silva and Alexandre Kaizeler, who performed all the requested reanalyses, given that the initial first author, Arthur Schneider, already left our lab. We must also point to the following minor unsolicited improvements we took the opportunity to make:

      • Added a comprehensive tutorial to the GitHub repository on how to navigate through voyAGEr’s features.

      • Implemented sample randomisation in the scatter plots depicting gene expression across the age axis to ensure data privacy.

      • Implemented minor adjustments within the web app to enhance user comprehension and clarity when visualizing the data.

      • Improved clarity of the methodological sections.

      Reviewer 1

      (1.1) While this may be obvious to others for some reason that escaped me, I was unsure what was the basis for the authors' choice of 16 years as the very specific sliding window size. If I'm not alone in this, it might add clarity for other readers and users if this parameter choice were explained and justified more explicitly.

      We apologise for our omission in providing the rationale behind our choice in the previous version. We chose 16 years as our sliding window size because this was the minimum needed to guarantee the presence of more than one sample per window, across all the tissues considered in the study (Figure R1 below).

      We added the following sentence to the manuscript (v. Methods, ShARP-LM):

      “This was the minimum age span needed to guarantee the presence of more than one sample per window, across all considered tissues.”

      (1.2) "In particular, tissue-specific periods of major transcriptional changes in the fifth and eighth decades of human lifespan have been revealed, reflecting the so-called digital aging and consistently with what is observed in mice" here I think that "consistently" should be "consistent".

      We thank the reviewer for the comment and following the suggestion, we have revised 'Consistently' to 'consistent' as it is the correct usage in our sentence.

      (1.3) "On a different note, sex biases have been reported in for the expression of SALL1 and KAL1 in adipose tissue and lung, respectively." Here I think that "in for" should be "in".

      As recommended by the reviewer, we have replaced ‘in for’ for ‘in’. As we substituted KAL1, the current sentence now stands as “On a different note, sex biases have been reported in the expression of SALL1 and DDX43 in adipose tissue and lung, respectively”.

      (1.4) "We downloaded the matrix with the RNA-seq read counts for each gene in each GTEx v7 sample from the project's data portal (https://www.gtexportal.org/)." In my pdf manuscript this hyperlink appears to be broken.

      We appreciate the reviewer's attention to the broken link, and we have rectified the issue. The link should now be fully operational, effectively directing users to the GTEx Portal.

      (1.5) Under methods, I might suggest "Development platform" or "Development platforms" over "Development's platform" as a heading.

      We have modified the heading of this section in the methods to 'Development Platforms', as we believe it better reflects the information conveyed.

      Reviewer 2

      (2.1) In this tool/resource paper, it is crucial that the data used is up-to-date to provide the most comprehensive and relevant information to users. However, the authors utilized GTEx v7, which is an outdated (2016) version of the dataset. It is worth noting that GTEx v8 includes over 940 individuals, representing a 35% increase in individuals, and a 50% increase in the total number of samples. The authors should check the newer versions of GTEx and update the data.

      When the development of the voyAGEr web application began, GTEx version 7 was the most up to date. Nevertheless, we agree that the version 8 offers a notably more extensive dataset, encompassing a larger number of individuals, samples, and introducing new tissues. Consequently, we have updated our application to incorporate the data from GTEx version 8.

      (2.2) The authors did not address any correction for batch effects or RNA integrity numbers, which are known to affect transcriptome profiles. For instance, our analysis of GTEx v8 Cortex tissue revealed that after filtering out lowly expressed genes, in the same way authors did, PC1 (which accounts for 24% of the variation) had a Spearman's correlation value of 0.48 (p<6.1e-16) with RNA integrity number.

      We acknowledge the validity of the reviewer’s comment and appreciate the importance of such corrections to enhancing data interpretation. In response, we conducted a thorough unbiased investigation into potential batch effects, with the COHORT variable emerging as the primary driver of those observed across most tissues. Furthermore, SMRIN (as the reviewer pointed), DTHHRDY, MHSMKYRS and the number of detected genes in each sample were consistently associated with the primary sources of variation. As a result, we implemented batch effect correction for those five conditions, in a tissue-specific manner.

      We provide a detailed explanation of the batch effect correction methodology and its importance in the biological interpretation of results in the Methods section, specifically under "Read count data pre-processing". Additionally, we have included two new supplementary figures, Sup. Figures 7 and 8, to illustrate a batch effect example in lung tissue and emphasise the critical role of this correction in data interpretation.

      (2.3) The data analyzed in the GTEx dataset is not filtered or corrected for the cause of death, which can range from violent and sudden deaths to slow deaths or cases requiring a ventilator. As a result, the data may not accurately represent healthy aging profiles but rather reflect changes in the transcriptome specific to certain diseases due to the age-related increase in disease risk. While the authors do acknowledge this limitation in the discussion, stating that it is not a healthy cohort and disease-specific analysis is not feasible due to the limited number of samples, it would be useful for users to have the option to analyze only cases of fast death, excluding ventilator cases and deaths due to disease. This is typically how GTEx data is utilized in aging studies. Alternatively, the authors should consider including the "cause of death" variable in the model.

      This comment is closely related to the prior discussion (point 2.2). Notably, two of the covariates selected for batch effect correction, namely, DTHHRDY (Death classification based on the 4-point Hardy Scale1) and COHORT (indicating whether the participant was a postmortem, organ, or surgical donor1), have a direct relevance to this issue, i.e., both relate to the cause of death of the individual.

      1 According to the nomenclature of variables described in https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/projects/gap/cgibin/ GetListOfAllObjects.cgi?study_id=phs000424.v9.p2&object_type=variable

      We therefore effectively account for their influence on gene expression, mitigating these factors' impact.

      This approach represents a compromise, as it is practically infeasible to ascertain the absence of underlying health conditions in the remaining samples, even if only considering cases of “fast death”. Hence, we opted to keep all samples, independently of the cause of death of its donor, to dilute potential effects associated with individual causes of death.

      (2.4) The age distribution varies across tissues which may impact the results of the study. The authors' claim that age distribution does not affect the outcomes is inconclusive. Since the study aims to provide cross-tissue analysis, it is important to note that differing age distributions across tissues can influence the overall results. To address this, the authors should conduct downsampling to different age distributions across tissues and evaluate the level of tissue-specific or common changes that remain after the distributions are made similar.

      We acknowledge that variations in age distributions are evident across different tissues, with brain tissues displaying a notably pronounced disparity (green density lines in Figure R2 below).

      To address this issue comprehensively, we conducted tissue-specific downsampling, by reducing the number of samples in a given age window to the minimum available sample size within all age windows for a given tissue. The histograms (density plots) of the number of samples per age window of 16 years considered in the ShARP-LM model, as well as the minimum number of samples in each age window, per tissue are illustrated in Figure R1. After performing downsampling, we computed the logFC and p-value of differential expression for each gene, per age window, and compared them (for all genes in a given age window) with those involving all samples.

      Despite changes in logFC with downsampling, a considerable positive correlation is maintained (Figure R3, top panel). This suggests that the overall trends in gene expression changes persist. However, the downsampling process expectedly results in a decrease of statistical power within each age window concomitant with the decreased sample size, evident from the shift of genes from the third to the first quadrant in Figure R3, bottom panel. Consequently, we have opted for maintaining results encompassing all samples and removing the paragraph in the Discussion that asserted the absence of age distribution impact on the overall outcomes (“Indeed, we found no confounding between the distribution of samples’ ages and the trend of gene expression progression over age in any tissue.”), as we deem it inaccurate, potentially leading to misinterpretation. We have added a supplementary figure (Supplementary Figure 8, identical to Figure R3) illustrating the effect of downsampling, and the following paragraph to the manuscript’s Discussion section:

      “When downsampling to ensure a balanced age distribution, a loss of statistical power is apparent but a considerable positive correlation with the original results is maintained and a substantial number of significant alterations remain so (Supplementary Figure 8).”

      We acknowledge that this limitation can be addressed with the growing accumulation of human tissue transcriptomes in publicly available databases, a trend we anticipate in the near future. We are committed to promptly updating voyAGEr with any new data releases that may offer a solution to this concern.

      Nonetheless, we want to underscore, as the reviewer has astutely pointed out, that while voyAGEr can facilitate cross-tissue comparisons, it must be done with caution. In this regard, we inserted the following paragraph into the Discussion:

      “Due to the tissue-specific nature of the pre-processing steps (v. Read count data preprocessing in the Methods section), and given that most of the plotted gene expression distributions are centred and scaled by tissue, it is important to note that voyAGEr may not be always suited for direct comparisons between different tissues. For instance, it does not allow to directly ascertain if a gene exhibits different expression levels in different tissues or if the expression of a particular gene in one tissue changes more drastically with age than in another tissue.”

      (2.5) The GTEx resource is extremely valuable, however, it comes with challenges. GTEx contains tissue samples from the same individuals across different tissues, resulting in varying degrees of overlap in sample origin across tissues as not all tissues are collected for all individuals. This could affect the similar/different patterns observed across tissues. As this tool is meant for broader use by the community, it is crucial for the authors to either rule out this possibility by conducting a cross-tissue comparison using a non-parametric model that accounts for the dependency between samples from the same individual, or to provide information on the degree of similarity between samples so that the users can keep this possibility in mind when using the tool for hypothesis generation.

      We agree that the variable degrees of overlap between tissues (Figure R4) could lead to a confounding between trends in a population of common individuals and those associated with age. We therefore examined the contributions of variables 'donor,' 'tissue,' and 'age' to the overall variance in the data (Figure R5, panel A), having normalised the data collectively across all tissues. Tissue and donor contribute approximately 90% and 10% of the variance, respectively. Age exhibits minimal impact (around 1%), which may be attributed to the relative subtlety of its effects on gene expression and to the tissue specificity of ageing-associated changes. Notably, removing the 'donor' variable does not transfer this variance to 'age', suggesting a limited confounding between these variables (see Figure R5, panel B).

      We also specifically examined the pairs of tissues exhibiting the lowest (Brain Amygdala / Small Intestine), median (Pancreas / Heart Left Ventricle), and highest (Kidney Cortex / Muscle Skeletal) percentages of shared donors. We identified and selectively removed samples from shared donors while maintaining the original sample size imbalance between tissues. Subsequently, we calculated each gene’s mean expression within each age window from the ShARP-LM pipeline, followed by each gene’s Pearson’s correlation of expression between tissue pairs. The resulting coefficients, both with and without the removal of common donors, were compared in scatter plots (Figure R6, left plots). As this process inherently involves downsampling, which may impact results (v. comment 2.4), we performed additional downsampling by randomly removing samples from both tissues according to the proportions defined for the removal of common donors (Figure R6, right plots).

      In the chosen scenarios, we note a similar impact between the targeted removal of common donors and random downsampling. Nevertheless, the effects of removing samples may vary according to the absolute number of remaining samples. Consequently, singling out individual cases may not provide conclusive insights. To systematically address this, we represented all tissue pairs in a heatmap, colour-coded based on whether the removal of common donors is more impactful (red) or less impactful (blue) than random downsampling (Figure R7). The values depicted in the heatmap, denoted as the Impact of Common Donors (ICD), are computed for each tissue pair. This calculation involves several steps: first, we determined the absolute difference in Pearson’s correlation for each gene’s mean expression within each age window from the ShARP-LM pipeline, between the original data and the subset of data without common donors (DiffWoCD) or with random downsampling (DiffRD). Subsequently, the medians of DiffWoCD and DiffRD are computed, and the difference between these median values provides the ICD for each tissue pair. Due to the unidirectional nature of correlation (i.e., the results for tissue 1 vs tissue 2 mirror those for tissue 2 vs tissue 1), the resulting matrix is triangular in form.

      We have added a supplementary figure (Supplementary Figure 4, a composition of Figures R4-R7, together with a scatterplot relating the values of heatmaps R4 and R7) that aims to provide guidance to users when interpreting specific tissue pairs, acknowledging inherent limitations (refer to comment 2.4). We have also inserted the following paragraph into the manuscript’s Discussion section:

      “Furthermore, we must emphasise that the majority of GTEx donors contributed samples to multiple tissues (Supplementary Figure 4A), potentially introducing biases and confounders when comparing gene expression patterns between tissues. Our analyses of variance (Supplementary Figure 4B) and downsampling to control for common donors (Supplementary Figures 4C-E) suggest very limited global confounding between the impacts of donor and age on gene expression and that any potential cross-tissue bias not to depend much on the proportion of common donors (Supplementary Figure 4E). However, this effect must be taken into account when comparing specific pairs of tissues (e.g., Colon – Transverse and Whole Blood, Supplementary Figure 4D).”

      (2.6) The authors aimed to create an open-source and ever-evolving resource that could be adapted and improved with new functionality. However, this goal was only partially achieved. Although the code for the web app is open source, crucial components such as the statistical tests or the linear model are not included in the repository, limiting the tool's customizability and adaptability.

      We greatly appreciate the reviewer’s concern and share their commitment to maintaining the principles of openness, reproducibility, and adaptability for voyAGEr. voyAGEr was primarily designed as a visualisation tool, displaying pre-processed results, and indeed only the code for the Shiny app itself was accessible through the project's GitHub repository.

      To address this shortcoming, we have made the entire data preprocessing script publicly available in the GitHub repository of voyAGEr. This script encompasses, among others, filtration, normalisation, batch effect correction, the ShARP-LM pipeline and statistical tests employed, and module definition. Moreover, the web app itself offers functionality to export relevant plots and tables.

      (2.7) Furthermore, the authors' choice of visualization platform (R shiny) may not be the best fit for extensibility and open-source collaboration, as it lacks modularity. A more suitable alternative could be production-oriented platforms such as Flask or FastAPI.

      We appreciate this thoughtful concern. The decision to use Shiny was primarily driven by our data having already been prepared in the R environment during pre-processing steps. Consequently, and as the web app serves the purpose of visualisation only (and not data processing), Shiny is as a natural and convenient extension of our scripts, enabling data visualisation seamlessly.

      We acknowledge that Shiny may lack the modularity required for optimal open-source collaboration. While we recognise the merits of alternative platforms like Flask or FastAPI, we decided to keep Shiny because the current iteration of voyAGEr offers significant value to the community. Transitioning to a different platform would be a time-consuming endeavour, that would postpone the release of such resource.

      However, the reviewer’s feedback regarding modularity and open-source collaboration is duly noted and highly valuable. We will certainly take it into account when developing new web applications within our laboratory.

      (2.8) To facilitate collaboration and improve the tool's adaptability, data resulting from the preprocessing pipeline should be made publicly available. This would make it easier for others to contribute and extend the tool's functionality, ultimately enhancing its value for the scientific community.

      As outlined in point 2.6 of this rebuttal letter, certain metadata used in our analysis are subject to restricted access. To address this, we have taken several measures to foster transparency and reproducibility of our analyses. First, we have made the scripts for data pre-processing publicly available, along with a comprehensive explanation of our methodology within the main manuscript. This empowers users to replicate our analyses and provides a foundation for those interested in contributing to the tool's development. Furthermore, we have created new issues on voyAGEr’s GitHub repository, outlining novel features and improvements we envision for the application in the future. We actively encourage users to engage with this section.

      (2.9) It is unfortunate that the manuscript has no line numbers, which makes pointing out language issues or typos cumbersome. Below are some minor typos present in the current version mostly due to inconsistent usage of British vs US English, and the authors would be advised to do a thorough proofreading for the final submission.

      • Page 12: Inconsistent spelling of "analyzed" and "analysed". Should be "analyzed", since US English is used throughout the rest of the paper.

      • Page 14: "randomised"

      • Page 15: "emphasise"

      We apologise for it and include line numbers in the revised version. We have opted for British English and corrected the manuscript accordingly.

      (2.10) Some figures in the supplemental material have a low resolution (e.g. S. Fig 5). Especially figures that are not based on screenshots would ideally be of a higher resolution.

      As voyAGEr is designed as a web application for visualisation, it is inherent that some screenshots of the final resource may have lower resolutions. In response to this concern, we re-generated the figures in this manuscript with a resolution that maintains clarity and readability. We also recreated figures not derived from screenshots, further improving their resolution.

      We saved all figures in PDF format and are sending them together with this letter and the revised manuscript, to address any potential issues related to low-resolution figures that may occur during the export of the Word document.

      <(2.11) In Fig. 1 in the bottom row the sex labels are hard to see.

      We have adapted the figure to address this concern.

      (2.12) Math symbols and equations are not well formatted. For example, the GE equation on p. 13, or Oiij equation should be properly typeset. Also, the Oiij notation might be confusing, I believe the authors meant to use a capital "I", i.e. OI_ij.

      We have incorporated these recommendations into the revised manuscript.

      (2.13) The Readme file in the git repo is very short. It would be helpful to have build and run instructions.

      We have updated the README file in the GitHub repository, which now contains, among other features, instructions for launching the Shiny app and building the associated Docker image. Additionally, a simple tutorial has also been included to assist users in navigating through voyAGEr's functionalities.

      (2.14> "Module" tab's UI inconsistent to other tabs (i.e. "Gene" and "Tissue"), since it contains an "About" page. Adding the "About" page in the actual "Module" page might make the UI clearer.

      We believed that the Modules section, due to its distinct methodology, would benefit from an additional tab explaining its underlying rationale. We relate to the reviewer’s concern regarding the use of tabs throughout the application and made changes to the app in order to ensure consistency.

      (2.15) I would suggest changing the type of the article to "Tools and Resources".

      We agree and followed the reviewer’s suggestion.

      Reviewer 3

      (3.1) In the gene-centric analyses section of the result, to improve this manuscript and database, linear regression tests accounting for the entire range of age should be added. The authors' algorithm, ShARP-LM, tests locally within a 16-year window which makes it has lower power than the linear regression test with the whole ages. I suspect that the power reduction is strongly affected in the younger age range since a larger number of GTEx donors are enriched in old age. By adding the results from the lm tests, readers would gain more insight and evidence into how significantly their interest genes change with age.

      We are grateful for the reviewer's thoughtful and pertinent recommendation and have thus conducted linear regression tests covering the entire age range. The outcomes of these tests have been integrated into the web application, denoted by a dotted orange line on the 'Gene Expression Alterations Over Age' plots. Additionally, a summary of statistics of overall changes, encompassing pvalues, t-statistics, and logFC per year, has been included below the plot title. We have also updated the manuscript to include such changes (v. Methods, Gene-centric visualisation of tissue-specific expression changes across age):

      “We also applied a linear model across the entire age range, thereby providing users with more insight and supporting evidence into how a specific gene changes with age. For visualisation purposes, we incorporated a dashed orange line, with the logFC per year for the Age effect as slope, in the respective scatter plots (Figure 3B c). We depict the Sex effect therein by prominent dots on the average samples, with pink and blue denoting females and males, respectively.”

      Concerning the observation about the potential reduction in statistical power due to the limited number of samples in younger ages, we acknowledge its validity. Indeed, we have addressed this issue in the manuscript's Discussion (v. Supplementary Figure 6).

      (3.1) In line with the ShARP-LM test results, it is not clear which criterion was used to define the significant genes and the following enrichment analyses. I assume that the criterion is P < 0.05, but it should be clearly noted. Additionally, the authors should apply adjusted p-values for multiple-test correction. The ideal criterion is an adjusted P < 0.05. However, if none or only a handful of genes were found to be significant, the authors could relax the criteria, such as using a regular P < 0.01 or 0.05.

      We apologise for any confusion regarding the terminology "significant genes." Our choice to use nonadjusted p-values for determining the significance of gene expression changes with Age, Sex, and their interaction was deliberate, and we would like to clarify our reasoning:

      (1) In the "Gene" tab of the application, individual genes are examined. When users inquire about a specific gene, multiple-testing correction of the p-value does not apply.

      (2) In the "Tissue" tab, using adjusted p-values and a threshold of 0.05 yielded very few differentially expressed genes, limiting the utility of Peaks. Our objective therein is not to assess the significance of alterations in individual genes but to provide a metric for global alterations within a tissue. We then determine significance based on the False Discovery Rate (FDR), using the p-values as a nominal metric of gene expression alterations.

      To avoid using the concept of “differential expression”, commonly linked to significance, we now refer to 'altered genes' in both the manuscript and the app. For clarity and to align with voyAGEr's role as a hypothesis-generation tool, we define 'altered genes' as those with non-adjusted p-values < 0.01 or < 0.05, as discriminated in the Methods section.

      (3.3) In the gene-centric analyses section, authors should provide a full list of donor conditions and a summary table of conditions as supplementary.

      We appreciate the suggestion and we have now included a reference that directs readers to those data, alternatively to including this information as an additional supplementary table. We would like to emphasise that the web app includes information on donor conditions we hypothesise to affect gene expression.

      3.4) The tissue-specific assessment section has poor sub-titles. Every title has to contain information.

      We agree and revised the sub-titles to more accurately reflect the information conveyed in each corresponding section.

      (3.5) I have an issue understanding the meaning of NES from GSEA in the tissue-specific assessment section. The authors performed GSEA for the DEGs against the background genes ordered by tstatistics (from positive to negative) calculated from the linear model. I understand the p-value was two-tailed, which means that both positive and negative NES are meaningful as they represent up-regulated expression direction (positive coefficient) and down-regulated expression direction (negative coefficient) with age, respectively, within a window. However, in the GSEA section of Methods, authors were not fully elaborate on this directionality but stated, "The NES for each pathway was used in subsequent analyses as a metric of its over- or downrepresentation in the Peak". The authors should clearly elaborate on how to interpret the NES from their results.

      We added the following paragraph to the manuscript’s Methods section, in order to clarify the NES’ directionality:

      “We extracted the GSEA normalised enrichment score (NES), which represents the degree to which a certain gene set is overrepresented at the extreme ends of the ranked list of genes. A positive NES corresponds to the gene set’s overrepresentation amongst up-regulated genes within the age window, whereas a negative NES signifies its overrepresentation amongst down-regulated genes. The NES for each pathway was used in subsequent analyses as a metric of its up- or down-regulation in the Peak.”

      (3.6) In the Modules of co-expressed genes section, the authors did not explain how or why they selected the four tissues: brain, skeletal muscle, heart (left ventricle), and whole blood. This should be elaborated on.

      We apologise for not providing a detailed explanation for this selection. As the ‘Modules of coexpressed genes’ section was primarily intended as a proof of concept, we opted to include tissues for which we had a substantial number of samples available and availability of comprehensive cell type signatures, those being the tissues that met such criteria. Nonetheless, as the diversity of cell type signatures increases (e.g., through the increasing availability of scRNA-seq datasets), we plan to encompass a wider range of tissues in the near future. However, as this task is time-demanding and in order to avoid a substantial delay in the release of voyAGEr, we opted to approach this issue in the next version of the App and included a dedicated issue in the projects’ GitHub repository so that users can share their preferences of the next tissues to include.

      We also added a brief sentence in this regard to the Methods section of the manuscript:

      “The four tissues (Brain - Cortex, Muscle - Skeletal, Heart - Left Ventricle, and Whole Blood) covered by the Module section of voyAGEr were selected due to their relatively high sample sizes and availability of comprehensive cell type signatures. The increasing availability of human tissue scRNA-seq datasets (e.g., through the Human Cell Atlas) will allow future updates of voyAGEr to encompass a wider range of tissues.”

      (3.7) In the modules of the co-expressed genes section, the authors did not provide an explanation of the "diseases-manual" sub-tab of the "Pathway" tab of the voyAGEr tool. It would be helpful for readers to understand how the candidate disease list was prepared and what the results represent.

      We greatly appreciate the reviewer's feedback, and in response, we have restructured the 'Modules of co-expressed genes' method section to provide a more comprehensive explanation of the 'diseases' sub-section. To clarify, we obtained a curated set of diseases and their associated genes from DisGeNET v.7.0. We assessed the enrichment of modules in relation to these diseases through two methods: a manual approach utilising Fisher’s tests (i.e. comparing the genes of a given module with the genes associated with a given disease) and another through use of the disgenet2r package, employing the function disease_enrichment. Significance of these enrichments were determined by adjusting p-values using the Benjamini-Hochberg correction.

      (3.8) Most figures have low resolutions, and their fonts are too small to read.

      As already mentioned in issue 2.10, we have recreated all of the images with better resolution to enhance legibility. We also exported such figures in PDF, which we attach to this revision.

      (3.9) Authors used GTEx V7, which is not latest version. Although researchers have developed a huge amount of pipelines and tools for their research, most of them were neglected without a single update. I am sure many users, including myself, would appreciate it if the authors kept updating the database with GTEx V8 for the future version of the database.

      We express our gratitude to the reviewer for their valuable suggestion, and, as already explained in issue 2.1, we have incorporated GTEx V8 into voyAGEr.

      (3.10) I would like to have an option for downloading the results as a whole for gene, tissue, and coexpressed genes. This would be a great option for secondary analysis by users.

      The implementation of such feature would be a time-demanding endeavour that would delay the release of voyAGEr, and we therefore chose not to perform it for this version. However, we agree that it would be a good resource for secondary analyses and acknowledge the possibility of adding this feature in the future. For now, voyAGEr allows the user to download all plots and corresponding data.

      (3.11) How the orders of tissues in the heatmaps (both gene and tissue section) were determined? Did the authors apply hierarchical clustering? If not, I would recommend the authors perform the hierarchical clustering and add it to display the heatmap display.

      We apologise for the oversight in explaining the process behind determining the order of tissues. To clarify, we employed hierarchical clustering to establish the tissue order for visualisation within the app. Although the reviewer suggested adding a dendrogram to illustrate this clustering, we decided against it. The reason for such is that including a dendrogram, while informative, is not essential for the app's primary purpose.

      (3.12) I understand that this is a vast amount of work, but I hope that the authors can expand the coexpressed module analysis to include other tissues in the future version of the database.

      Knowing what co-expressed genes in line with aging are and their pathway and disease enrichments across tissues would be highly informative, and I'm sure many users, including myself, would greatly appreciate it. <br /> We express our gratitude to the reviewer for the valuable suggestion and for acknowledging the extensive effort required to incorporate new tissues into the module section. We completely agree that understanding co-expressed genes across the aging process is of significant value, and we are committed to the ongoing inclusion of additional tissues. As already stated in issue 3.6, comprehensive list of tissues slated for integration in future voyAGEr versions is readily available on voyAGEr’s GitHub repository.

      Author response image 1.

      Density plots (“smoothed” histograms) of the distribution of numbers of samples per moving age window for the ShARP-LM pipeline, categorised by tissue. The numerical value within each rectangle represents the minimum number of samples observed across all age windows for that particular tissue.

      Author response image 2.

      Density lines (“smoothed” histograms) of the distribution of the age of donors per tissue. As depicted in the chart, there are more samples for older ages, particularly of brain tissues.

      Author response image 3.

      Effect of downsampling in ShARP-LM results. A – Per tissue violin plots of gene-wide distributions of Pearson’s correlation coefficients between original and downsampled logFC values for the Age variable across age windows, with tissues coloured by and ordered by increasing percentage of downsampling-associated reduction in the number of samples. B – Density scatter plots of comparison of associated original and downsampled p-values for each tissue, coloured by the downsampling percentage in each age window, highlighting the low range of p-values (from 0 to 0.1). Despite changes in logFC with downsampling, a considerable correlation in significance is maintained, although downsampling naturally results in a loss of statistical power, evident by the shift of points towards the first quadrant (dashed lines: p-value = 0.05).

      Author response image 4.

      Heatmap depicting the percentage of common donors between pairs of tissues. A given square illustrates the percentage of all samples of tissue in the x axis (Tissue 1) that is in common with the tissue in the y axis (Tissue 2)

      Author response image 5.

      Assessment of the relative contributions of different sources to the dataset’s variance. A - tissue accounts for approximately 90% of the total variance, while donor contributes around 10%; age has a minimal impact (1%), likely due to the relative subtlety of its effects on gene expression and to the tissue specificity of ageing dynamics. B - Removal of the donor variable does not transfer variance to age, suggesting limited confounding between the two variables.

      Author response image 6.

      Impact of the relative proportion of common donors on gene expression correlation between tissue pairs. Panels A, B, and C showcase the tissue pairs with the highest (Muscle Skeletal / Kidney Cortex), median (Pancreas / Heart Left Ventricle), and lowest (Small Intestine / Brain Amygdala) percentages of common donors, respectively. The left panels illustrate gene-bygene Pearson’s correlations of gene expression between the two tissues, comparing the scenarios with (x-axis) and without (yaxis) the removal of common donors. The ri ght panels depict the same comparisons, but with random downsampling (y-axis) in both tissues based on the proportions defined for common donor removal. The depicted examples show that the outcomes are comparable when removing common donors or employing random downsampling.

      Author response image 7.

      Comparison of the impacts of removing common donor samples and random downsampling across tissue pairs. The heatmap is coloured based on whether the removal of common donors has a greater (red) or lesser impact (blue) than random downsampling. The values depicted in the heatmap, denoted as the Impact of Common Donors (ICD), are computed for each tissue pair. This calculation involves several steps: first, by determining the absolute difference in Pearson’s correlation for each gene’s mean expression within each age window from the ShARP-LM pipeline, between the original data and the subset of data without common donors (DiffWoCD) or with random downsampling (DiffRD). Subsequently, the medians of DiffWoCD and DiffRD are computed, and the difference between these median values provides the ICD for each tissue pair. Due to the unidirectional nature of correlation (i.e., the results for tissue 1 vs tissue 2 mirror those for tissue 2 vs tissue 1), the resulting matrix is triangular in form. Grey tiles denote NA values, i.e., where the tissue-tissue comparison does not have a meaning, namely self-self and between sex-specific tissues. Top right insert: density line (“smoothed” histogram) of all ICD values.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Fernandez et al. investigate the influence of maternal behavior on bat pup vocal development in Saccopteryx bilineata, a species known to exhibit vocal production learning. The authors performed detailed longitudinal observations of wild mother-pup interactions to ask whether non-vocal maternal displays during juvenile vocal practice or 'babbling', affect vocal production. Specifically, the study examines the durations of pup babbling events and the developmental babbling phase, in relation to the amount of female display behavior, as well as pup age and the number of nearby singing adult males. Furthermore, the authors examine pup vocal repertoire size and maturation in relation to the number of maternal displays encountered during babbling. Statistical models identify female display behavior as a predictor of i) babbling bout duration, ii) the length of the babbling phase, iii) song composition, and iv) syllable maturation. Notably, these outcomes were not influenced by the number of nearby adult males (the pups' source of song models) and were largely independent of general maturation (pup age). These findings highlight the impact of non-vocal aspects of social interactions in guiding mammalian vocal development.

      We thank Reviewer 1 for the time and effort dedicated to the revision of our study. The suggestions for the revision of our manuscript were very helpful and have improved our manuscript considerably. 

      Strengths:

      Historically, work on developmental vocal learning has focused on how juvenile vocalizations are influenced by the sounds produced by nearby adults (often males). In contrast, this study takes the novel approach of examining juvenile vocal ontogeny in relation to non-vocal maternal behavior, in one of the few mammals known to exhibit vocal production learning. The authors collected an impressive dataset from multiple wild bat colonies in two Central American countries. This includes longitudinal acoustic recordings and behavioral monitoring of individual mother-pup pairs, across development.

      The identified relationships between maternal behavior and bat pup vocalizations have intriguing implications for understanding the mechanisms that enable vocal production learning in mammals, including human speech acquisition. As such, these findings are likely to be relevant to a broad audience interested in the evolution and development of social behavior as well as sensory-motor learning.

      We thank reviewer 1 for this assessment. 

      Weaknesses:

      The authors qualitatively describe specific patterns of female displays during pup babbling, however, subsequent quantitative analyses are based on two aggregate measures of female behavior that pool across display types. Consequently, it remains unclear how certain maternal behaviors might differentially influence pup vocalizations (e.g. through specific feedback contingencies or more general modulation of pup behavioral states).

      In analyzing the effects of maternal behavior on song maturation, the authors focus on the most common syllable type produced across pups. This approach is justified based on the syllable variability within and across individuals, however, additional quantification and visual presentation of categorized syllable data would improve clarity and potentially strengthen resulting claims.

      We agree that our analysis of maternal behaviour does not investigate potential contingencies between particular maternal behavioural displays and pup vocalizations (e.g. particular syllable types). Our data collected for this study on maternal behaviour includes direct observations, field notes and/or video recordings. In the future, it will be necessary to work with high-speed cameras for the analysis of potential contingencies between particular maternal behavioural displays and specific pup vocalizations, which allow this kind of fine-detailed analysis. We have planned future studies investigating whether pup vocalizations elicit contingent maternal responses or vice versa. In the revision of our manuscript, we have included a comment pointing out that this special behaviour will be investigated in greater detail in the future. 

      As suggested by reviewer 1, in our revised manuscript we have included more information on methods to improve understandability. In particular, we have:

      -presented more information on different steps of our acoustic analyses

      -provided additional and clearer spectrogram figures representing the different syllable types and categorizations 

      -changed the figures accompanying our GLMM analyses following the suggestion of Reviewer 1

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study explores how maternal behaviors influence vocal learning in the greater sac-winged bat (Saccopteryx bilineata). Over two field seasons, researchers tracked 19 bat pups from six wild colonies, examining vocal development aspects such as vocal practice duration, syllable repertoire size, and song syllable acquisition. The findings show that maternal behaviors significantly impact the length of daily babbling sessions and the overall babbling phase, while the presence of adult male tutors does not.

      The researchers conducted detailed acoustic analyses, categorizing syllables and evaluating the variety and presence of learned song syllables. They discovered that maternal interactions enhance both the number and diversity of learned syllables and the production of mature syllables in the pups' vocalizations. A notable correlation was found between the extent of acoustic changes in the most common learned syllable type and maternal activity, highlighting the key role of maternal feedback in shaping pups' vocal development.

      In summary, this study emphasizes the crucial role of maternal social feedback in the vocal development of S. bilineata. Maternal behaviors not only increase vocal practice but also aid in acquiring and refining a complex vocal repertoire. These insights enhance our understanding of social interactions in mammalian vocal learning and draw interesting parallels between bat and human vocal development.

      We thank reviewer 2 for his/her time and effort dedicated to the revision of our study. The suggestions were very helpful in improving our manuscript. 

      Strengths:

      This paper makes significant contributions to the field of vocal learning by looking at the role of maternal behaviors in shaping the vocal learning phenotype of Saccopteryx bilineata. The paper uses a longitudinal approach, tracking the vocal ontogeny of bat pups from birth to weaning across six colonies and two field seasons, allowing the authors to assess how maternal interactions influence various aspects of vocal practice and learning, providing strong empirical evidence for the critical role of social feedback in non-human mammalian vocal learners. This kind of evidence highlights the complexity of the vocal learning phenotype and shows that it goes beyond the right auditory experience and having the right circuitry.

      The paper offers a nuanced understanding of how specific maternal behaviors impact the acquisition and refinement of the vocal repertoire, while showing the number of male tutors - the source of adult song - did not have much of an effect. The correlation between maternal activity and acoustic changes in learned syllable types is a novel finding that underscores the importance of non-vocal social interactions in vocal learning. In vocal learning research, with some notable exceptions, experience is often understood as auditory experience. This paper highlights how, even though that is one important piece of the puzzle, other kinds of experience directly affect the development of vocal behavior. This is of particular importance in the case of a mammalian species such as Saccopteryx bilineata, as this kind of result is perhaps more often associated with avian species.

      Moreover, the study's findings have broader implications for our understanding of vocal learning across species. By drawing parallels between bat and human vocal development (and in some ways to bird vocal development), the paper highlights common mechanisms that may underlie vocal practice and learning in both humans and other mammals. This interdisciplinary perspective enriches the field and encourages further comparative studies, ultimately advancing our knowledge of the evolutionary and developmental processes that shape vocal productive learning in all its dimensions.

      We thank reviewer 2 for this assessment. 

      Weaknesses:

      Some weaknesses can be pointed out, but in fairness, the authors acknowledge them in one way or another. As such, these are not flaws per se, but gaps that can be filled with further research.

      Experimental manipulations, such as controlled playback experiments or controlled environments, could strengthen the causal claims by directly testing the effects of specific maternal behaviors on vocal development. Certainly, the strengths of the paper will be consolidated after such work is performed.

      The reliance on the number of singing males as a proxy for social acoustic input. This measure does not account for the variability in the quality, frequency, or duration of the male songs to which the pups are exposed. A more detailed analysis of the acoustic environment, including direct measurements of song exposure and its impact on vocal learning, would provide a clearer understanding of the role of male tutors.

      Finally, and although it would be unlikely that these results are unique to Saccopteryx bilineata, the study's focus on a single species limits at present the generalizability of some of its findings to other vocal learning mammals. While the parallels drawn between bat and human vocal development are intriguing, the conclusions will be more robust when supported by comparative studies involving multiple species of vocal learners. This will help to identify whether the observed maternal influences on vocal development reported here are unique to Saccopteryx bilineata or represent a broader phenomenon in chiropteran, mammalian, or general vocal learning. Expanding the scope of research to include a wider range of species and incorporating cross-species comparisons will significantly enhance the contribution of this study to the field of vocal learning.

      Thank you for your suggestions and comments. 

      Regarding your main comment 1: In the future, we plan to implement temporary captivity experiments to investigate how maternal behaviours affect pup vocal development. This study provides the necessary basis for conducting future playback studies investigating specific behaviours in a controlled environment.

      Regarding your main comment 2: We completely agree that the number of singing males only represents a proxy for acoustic input that pups receive during ontogeny. In the future, we plan to investigate in detail how the acoustic landscape influences pup vocal development and learning. This will include quantifying how long pups are exposed to song during ontogeny and assessing the influence of different tutors, including a detailed analysis of song syllables of the adult tutors to compare it to vocal trajectories of song syllables in pups. 

      Regarding your main comment 3: We also fully agree that it is unlikely that these results are unique to Saccopteryx bilineata. We are certain that other mammalian vocal learners show parallels to the vocal development and learning processes of S. bilineata. Especially bats are a promising taxon for comparative studies because their vocal production and perception systems are highly sophisticated (due to their ability to echolocate). The high sociability of this taxon also includes a variety of social systems and vocal capacities (e.g. regarding vocal repertoire size, vocal learning capacities, information content, etc.) which support social learning and social feedback – as shown in our study. 

      As suggested, in our revised manuscript we have includes information on the validation of the ethogram. Furthermore, we have corrected all the spelling mistakes – thank you very much for pointing them out!

      Recommendations for the authors:  

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The following comments and suggestions are offered to improve clarity and strengthen support for the paper's main claims.

      (1) Female displays as feedback:

      a) The authors rather broadly describe maternal behavior as feedback based on its occurrence during pup babbling. Feedback typically entails some degree of response contingency, which is not explicitly established here. Although the authors qualitatively describe a variety of female displays that only occur within the babbling context, they also state that "all these behaviors could occur singly or in an interactive way" (Line 102). The authors go on to use aggregate counts of these diverse female displays in their analyses. It would of course be interesting to know whether distinct female displays are evoked differentially by pup behavior and whether specific female behaviors, in turn, predict subsequent pup vocalizations. A display-specific approach might also reveal more about the mechanisms by which the female behavior shapes babbling (e.g. specific reinforcement signals vs. more graded social facilitation or 'audience effect'). However, even without identifying such finegrained contingencies, the main text should at least mention the results shown in Figure 1A. Namely, that pups initiate ~80% of interactive behavioral sequences, suggesting that subsequent maternal displays are likely to be pup-contingent responses (i.e. feedback) and not simply co-occurring behavior.

      We fully agree with Reviewer 1 that it would be very informative to investigate whether distinct female displays are evoked differentially by pup behavior, such as specific syllables within babbling. Or conversely, whether specific female behaviors precede particular pup vocalizations. For this study, we documented maternal behavior through direct observations, field notes, and/or video recordings. However, to capture potential contingencies between specific maternal behavioral displays and vocalization occurring in the millisecond range, other data collection methods (e.g. high-speed camera) will be required in the future. 

      Related to this, we have included the following statements (see below). Statement 1 also cites a very recent study in zebra finches, demonstrating that female calls can promote song learning success (Bistere et al. 2024, line 57, lines 304-305). 

      Lines 297-305: This finding serves as an initial indication that non-vocal interactions with the mother may influence a pup´s individual learning trajectories. Future studies will focus on the relationship between acoustic change, maternal feedback, and learning success, specifically investigating contingencies between particular pup vocalizations and maternal displays in natural settings. Playback experiments are an additional approach to test the impact of contingency on vocal learning. For example, one study in zebra finches demonstrated that contingent non-vocal maternal feedback affects imitation success (Carouso-Peck & Goldstein, 2019), while another recent study found that female calls can promote song learning but the role of contingency remains to be determined (Bistere et al., 2024).  

      Lines: 332-334: This might also apply to S. bilineata where pups initiated ~ 80% of social interactions, suggesting that maternal feedback is likely influenced by the pup´s vocal practice.  

      b) The authors claim that the number of maternal displays during babbling predicts the duration of babbling bouts (Figure 1D). I find this analysis - and others based on the raw number of behaviors during babbling - difficult to interpret given that the raw number of displays may depend upon the duration of the babbling bout over which they are counted. In other words, might the number of displays reflect the fact that more displays can occur within the interval of longer babbling bouts? It would be relatively straightforward to minimize this potential confound by testing whether female display *rates* predict longer bouts.

      We calculated the display rates (maternal displays per bout duration) and conducted a GLMM (the same analysis after log-transformation and scaling) like in our original manuscript (model 1).  

      GLMM

      summary(vocpracf)

      Generalized linear mixed model fit by maximum likelihood (Laplace Approximation) ['glmerMod']  Family: Gamma  ( log )

      Formula: bout_dur ~ age.z + behavioural_quotient.log.z + nomales.z + (1 | ID) Data: set1

      Author response table 1.

      Author response table 2.

      Author response table 3.

      Author response table 4.

      Author response table 5.

      Interpretation: Our analysis in the original manuscript shows that the bout duration increases with number of maternal displays. As reviewer 1 points out: more time offers more opportunities for the mother to show displays. The number of displays in longer bouts could just reflect that more displays are possible in a longer period. This could be a potential confounding factor. However, our analysis of display rates as an explaining factor shows that the relationship between bout duration and display rate is negative. This means that in longer bouts the displays increase (as seen in the first scenario), but they happen less frequently per time unit. This could indicate that in longer bouts, the mother takes breaks or longer periods of time between each display, which decreases the frequency of displays. This minimizes the risk of a potential confound, as it shows that the rate of displays tends to decrease rather than increase in longer bouts. In summary: The display rate does not appear to ‘favour’ longer bouts, as longer bouts are associated with a lower display rate. This speaks against the hypothesis that the number of displays only increases due to the longer bout duration. This also means that our analyses, which show that maternal displays influence song syllable production, are not biased or confounded by the bout duration. This suggests that maternal behaviour is targeted and selective, and represents a potentially contingent reaction to the pup´s vocal production, and is not simply determined by the duration of a bout.

      We added this analysis in our supplementary material (Table S2) and pointed this out in the revision of our main manuscript (lines 136-138). 

      c) The introduction states that "Pup babbling is not tied to a specific function." (Lines 75-78). This may be an important point worth exploring with this unique data set. For example, the termination of a babbling bout is defined in some cases by the onset of nursing. Have the authors (or others) tested whether babbling elicits nursing behavior? If so, this may represent a reinforcement mechanism that affects babbling rates and subsequent song outcomes. Similar functional shifts in developing vocal behavior have been reported in male chipping sparrows, in which juvenile begging calls - which initially elicit parental feeding behavior - can later be incorporated into 'sub-song' (i.e. babbling) during the development of courtship song (Lui, Wada, Nottebohm, PLOS ONE, 2009).

      Thank you for pointing out this interesting study on chipping sparrows! 

      To address your question: Strauss et al. (2010) conducted a study on pup and maternal behaviors, demonstrating that babbling did not consistently result in nursing.  When denied care, pups often returned to resting or grooming, a pattern we also observed in our study. While nursing might provide an additional reinforcement mechanisms, it is not the cause that evokes babbling – this is what we mean by stating “pup babbling is not tied to a specific function”. Babbling is not a begging behavior as described by Lui et al. 2009. As mentioned in the review of ter Haar et al. 2021, babbling differs structurally from begging in that it is composed of both adult-like and juvenile syllables and lacks context specificity. To solicit care (i.e. begging) pups produce several isolation calls in a fast repetitive manner. We added a more detailed explanation to make this distinction clear (lines 79-83).

      Another interesting fact and probably more comparable to the study of the chipping sparrows – in which begging calls are incorporated into subsong practice – might be the isolation call syllables of S. bilineata. Directly after birth, S. bilineata pups produce multisyllabic isolation calls (see Knörnschild & von Helversen 2008, Knörnschild et al. 2012, Fernandez & Knörnschild 2017) that serve to solicit maternal care. For the first 2.5 weeks, pups only produce innate vocalizations, including echolocation and isolation calls (Fernandez et al. 2021). During the babbling phase, the syllables encoding the individual (and group) signature of the isolation call are also incorporated into babbling bouts. The production of isolation calls might also mark an initial step in the vocal learning process. However, in contrast to the subsong of chipping sparrows, babbling bouts in S. bilineata also include syllables acquired through vocal imitation. Thus, although we find similarities in vocal practice and development between chipping sparrows and S. bilineata, there are also distinct differences. 

      (2) Are pups exposed to more male songs when the mother is present?

      The number of singing males in each colony was used as a reasonable proxy for the amount of social acoustic input. However, I wonder if pups are exposed to more adult male songs when the mother is present and, relatedly, if females tend to remain present for longer if a pup is babbling (potentially increasing its exposure to male songs during the babbling phase).

      The mother is always present when males are singing. In S. bilineata, males predominantly engage in territorial song twice daily: at dusk and dawn. After foraging at night, territorial singing males are the first to return to the roost, and females will only return when they hear male song. Pups are either attached to the mother´s belly or – when growing older – will fly into the roost followed by the mother. In the evening, males sing approximately half an hour before leaving for foraging. Females will usually leave first, followed by their pups, and males leave last. Hence, females/mothers are always present when pups are exposed to male acoustic input.  

      (3) Pup sex differences:

      The authors test for sex differences within a subset of pups and briefly mention that vocal development is considered in both males and females. This presumably means that female pups also exhibit vocal imitation of adult male territorial songs, even though they only produce these vocalizations during the babbling phase, after which they stop singing entirely. If so, this would, to my knowledge, be a unique phenomenon among vocal learners and would be interesting to discuss in greater detail.

      We followed your recommendation and discussed this topic in greater detail. We included the following part in our discussion (lines 257-269): An intriguing aspect of this species is that, unlike most song-learning songbird species, female pups show no differences from males in babbling behavior and vocal development (Fernandez et al. 2021). This study corroborated this finding: female pups received the same maternal feedback, and their song syllable imitation did not differ in any way from male pups (as observed as well in Knörnschild et al. 2010). This phenomenon is rare among vocal learners and raises the question of why female pups match male vocal development despite not using the learned vocalizations later in life. One potential explanation might lie in the function of the territorial song for adult females: it serves as an acoustic signal to help females locate new suitable colonies after dispersal. The territorial song exhibits different dialects, with females showing a preference for local over foreign dialects (Knörnschild et al., 2017). The own early practice and production of song might enhance the ability to evaluate male song and support mating decisions.

      (4) Characterization of song syllables:

      The authors explain their acoustic analyses in detail within the methods, however, descriptions of the syllable classification procedures and acoustic movement analyses need to be presented more clearly in the main text, so readers unfamiliar with bioacoustics or previous work can follow the logic. Also, given the qualitative descriptions of the data and the two spectrogram examples provided (Figures 2 and S1), it is difficult for the reader to fully evaluate the suitability and output of these critical procedures.

      Suggestions:  

      - Qualitative descriptions of syllable characteristics (i.e. buzz, pulse, trill, ripple, gap, smeared noisy, precursor syllable, mature syllable, adult-like syllable, early vs. late babbling phase, syllable name, etc) should all be clearly-labeled in example spectrograms and used consistently, without using different terms interchangeably (e.g. mature vs. adult-like).

      We understand that we should provide a clearer description of the various terms essential to understanding this study. We added a “Terminology” box (line 158) to the main manuscript, defining the acoustic terms we are using throughout our study. Additionally, we enhanced Figure S1 by providing more detailed information on the spectrogram that displays the five distinct song syllable types. Moreover, we included an additional spectrogram in the supplementary material (Fig. S2) displaying examples of precursor and mature syllables for syllable B2. In the method section, “The acoustic movement during ontogeny”, we added a sentence clarifying the terms “early” and “late babbling phase” (Lines 605-606). 

      - Show as you tell. Plot the data, at least from a representative pup, for each major step in the analyses (labeled spectrogram, PCA plots with distinct syllable clusters, high vs. low versatility, precursor vs. mature variants, early vs. late syllables with Euclidean distances between centroids and relation to "generic" adult male syllables, etc.)

      To illustrate the acoustic analysis more comprehensively, we have made the following additions:

      -we included a Figure (Fig. S3) in the supplementary materials showing an excerpt of a babbling bout with labelled syllables to illustrate how we analyzed a) total song syllable count per bout, b) versatility per bout, and c) the number of precursor versus mature B2 syllables (the most common syllable type).

      -Additionally, we included a spectrogram with three exemplary B2 syllables to illustrate the acoustic parameter extraction with Avisoft SASLab Pro software for subsequent analysis of vocal change during development (Fig. S4 A).

      Lastly, we included a DFA for one of the colonies with three exemplary pups to illustrate how we calculated each pup's acoustic change during ontogeny (Fig. S4 B). 

      (5) Minor Comments and Corrections:

      - Modeled data are log-transformed, however, the raw data are plotted on linear scales, and in most cases, data points are densely clustered and overlapping at lower values. Plotting the data on log scales would likely aid visibility.

      We appreciate this suggestion and changed the plots accordingly. 

      - Figure 1E displays 18 data points, (legend says n=19).

      The legend is correct; the figure includes 19 data points. Two mothers have the same activity score, so their points are at the same location and it looks like there are only 18 data points. 

      - Line 482: Is "VCL" media player meant to refer to "VLC" player?

      Yes, thank you for spotting that. We corrected it.  

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      I have only a couple of comments:

      - Perhaps it would be useful to briefly go over the validation used for the ethogram in Table S1.

      The behaviors listed in the ethogram were defined based on Strauss et al. (2010) and expanded based on our own observations. For consistency, we developed these definitions and trained the students analyzing behavioral data for this study. During the training phase, we validated their analyses until the inter-observer-reliability reached 100% (lines 507-508).  

      - The paper seems to be generally written in American English, yet there are some instances of British English spelling, e.g. "standardised"/"standardisation": table 1, table 2, lines 143, 228, 524, 525, 531, 546, 547, 554, 560, 561.

      Thank you for spotting these errors, we corrected them.  

      - Line 343: "at libitum" should be "ad libitum".

      Thank you for spotting this error. We corrected it.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors present a modelling study to test the hypothesis that horizontal gene transfer (HGT) can modulate the outcome of interspecies competition in microbiomes, and in particular promote bistability in systems across scales. The premise is a model developed by the same authors in a previous paper where bistability happens because of a balance between growth rates and competition for a mutual resource pool (common carrying capacity). They show that introducing a transferrable element that gives a "growth rate bonus" expands the region of parameter space where bistability happens. The authors then investigate how often (in terms of parameter space) this bistability occurs across different scales of complexity, and finally under selection for the mobile element (framed as ABR selection).

      Strengths:

      The authors tackle an important, yet complex, question: how do different evolutionary processes impact the ecology of microbial ecosystems? They do a nice job at increasing the scales of heterogeneity and asking how these impact their main observable: bistability.

      We appreciate the reviewer for agreeing with the potential value of our analysis. We are also grateful for the constructive comments and suggestions on further analyzing the influence of the model structure and the associated assumptions. We have fully addressed the raised issues in the updated manuscript and below.

      Weaknesses:

      The author's starting point is their interaction LV model and the manuscript then explores how this model behaves under different scenarios. Because the structure of the model and the underlying assumptions essentially dictate these outcomes, I would expect to see much more focus on how these two aspects relate to the specific scenarios that are discussed. For example:

      A key assumption is that the mobile element conveys a multiplicative growth rate benefit (1+lambda). However, the competition between the species is modelled as a factor gamma that modulates the competition for overall resource and thus appears in the saturation term (1+ S1/Nm + gamma2*S2/Nm). This means that gamma changes the perceived abundance of the other species (if gamma > 1, then from the point of view of S1 it looks like there are more S2 than there really are). Most importantly, the relationship between these parameters dictates whether or not there will be bistability (as the authors state).

      This decoupling between the transferred benefit and the competition can have different consequences. One of them is that - from the point of view of the mobile element - the mobile element competes at different strengths within the same population compared to between. To what degree introducing such a mobile element modifies the baseline bistability expectation thus strongly depends on how it modifies gamma and lambda.

      Thus, this structural aspect needs to be much more carefully presented to help the reader follow how much of the results are just trivial given the model assumptions and which have more of an emergent flavour. From my point of view, this has an important impact on helping the reader understand how the model that the authors present can contribute to the understanding of the question "how microbes competing for a limited number of resources stably coexist". I do appreciate that this changes the focus of the manuscript from a presentation of simulation results to more of a discussion of mathematical modelling.

      We thank the reviewer for the insightful suggestions. We agree with the reviewer that the model structure and the underlying assumptions need to be carefully discussed, in order to understand the generality of the theoretical predictions. In particular, the reviewer emphasized that how HGT affects bistability might depend on how mobile genetic elements modified growth rates and competition. In the main text, we have shown that when mobile genes only influence species growth rates, HGT is expected to promote multistability (Fig. 1 and 2). However, when mobile genes modify species interactions, the effect of HGT on multistability is dependent on how mobile genes change competition strength (Fig. 3a to f). When mobile genes increase competition, HGT promotes multistability (Fig. 3c and e). In contrast, when mobile genes relax competition, HGT is expected to reduce multistability (Fig. 3d and f).

      In light of the reviewer’s comments, we have further generalized the model structure, by accounting for the scenario where mobile genes simultaneously modify growth rates and competition. The effect of mobile genes on growth rates is represented by the magnitude of 𝜆’s, and the influence on competition is described by another parameter 𝛿. By varying these two parameters, we can evaluate how the model structure and the underlying assumptions affect the baseline expectation. We performed additional simulations with broad ranges of 𝜆 and 𝛿 values. In particular, we analyzed whether HGT would promote the likelihood of bistability in two-species communities compared with the scenario without gene transfer (Fig. 3g-i). Our results suggested that: (1) With or without HGT, reducing 𝜆 (increasing neutrality) promotes bistability; (2) With HGT, increasing 𝛿 promotes bistability; (2) Compared with the population without HGT, gene transfer promotes bistability when 𝛿 is zero or positive, while reduces bistability when 𝛿 is largely negative. These results agree with the reviewer’s comment that the baseline bistability expectation depends on how HGT modifies gamma and lambda. In the updated manuscript, we have thoroughly discussed how the model structure and the underlying assumptions can influence the predictions (line 238-253). 

      We further expanded our analysis, by calculating how other parameters, including competition strength, growth rate ranges, and death/dilution rate, would affect the multistability of communities undergoing horizontal gene transfer (Fig. S2, S3, S9, S10, S11, S12, S13, S15). Together with the results presented in the first draft, these analysis enables a more comprehensive understanding of how different mechanisms, including but not limited to HGT, collectively shaped community multistability. In the updated manuscript, the reviewer can see the change of focus from exploring the effects of HGT to a more thorough discussion of the mathematical model. The revised texts highlighted in blue and the supplemented figures reflect such a change.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this work, the authors use a theoretical model to study the potential impact of Horizontal Gene Transfer on the number of alternative stable states of microbial communities. For this, they use a modified version of the competitive Lotka Volterra model-which accounts for the effects of pairwise, competitive interactions on species growth-that incorporates terms for the effects of both an added death (dilution) rate acting on all species and the rates of horizontal transfer of mobile genetic elements-which can in turn affect species growth rates. The authors analyze the impact of horizontal gene transfer in different scenarios: bistability between pairs of species, multistability in communities, and a modular structure in the interaction matrix to simulate multiple niches. They also incorporate additional elements to the model, such as spatial structure to simulate metacommunities and modification of pairwise interactions by mobile genetic elements. In almost all these cases, the authors report an increase in either the number of alternative stable states or the parameter region (e.g. growth rate values) in which they occur.

      In my opinion, understanding the role of horizontal gene transfer in community multistability is a

      very important subject. This manuscript is a useful approach to the subject, but I'm afraid that a thorough analysis of the role of different parameters under different scenarios is missing in order to support the general claims of the authors. The authors have extended their analysis to increase their biological relevance, but I believe that the analysis still lacks comprehensiveness.

      Understanding the origin of alternative stable states in microbial communities and how often they may occur is an important challenge in microbial ecology and evolution. Shifts between these alternative stable states can drive transitions between e.g. a healthy microbiome and dysbiosis. A better understanding of how horizontal gene transfer can drive multistability could help predict alternative stable states in microbial communities, as well as inspire novel treatments to steer communities towards the most desired (e.g. healthy) stable states.

      Strengths:

      (1) Generality of the model: the work is based on a phenomenological model that has been extensively used to predict the dynamics of ecological communities in many different scenarios.

      (2) The question of how horizontal gene transfer can drive alternative stable states in microbial communities is important and there are very few studies addressing it.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive comments on the potential novelty and conceptual importance of our work. We are also grateful for the constructive suggestions on the generality and comprehensiveness of our analysis. In particular, we agree with the reviewer that a thorough analysis of the role of different parameter could further improve the rigor of this work. We have fully addressed the raised issues in the updated manuscript and below.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) There is a need for a more comprehensive analysis of the relative importance of the different model parameters in driving multistability. For example, there is no analysis of the effects of the added death rate in multistability. This parameter has been shown to determine whether a given pair of interacting species exhibits bistability or not (see e.g. Abreu et al 2019 Nature Communications 10:2120). Similarly, each scenario is analyzed for a unique value of species interspecies interaction strength-with the exception of the case for mobile genetic elements affecting interaction strength, which considers three specific values. Considering heterogeneous interaction strengths (e.g. sampling from a random distribution) could also lead to more realistic scenarios - the authors generally considered that all species pairs interact with the same strength. Analyzing a larger range of growth rates effects of mobile genetic elements would also help generalize the results. In order to achieve a more generic assessment of the impact of horizontal gene transfer in driving multistability, its role should be systematically compared to the effects of the rest of the parameters of the model.

      We appreciate the suggestions. For each of the parameters that the reviewer mentioned, we have performed additional simulations to evaluate its importance in driving multistability. 

      For the added death rate, we have calculated the bistability feasibility of two-species populations under different values of 𝐷. Our results suggested that (1) varying death rate indeed changed the bistability probability of the system; (2) when the death rate was zero, mobile genetic elements that only modify growth rates would have no effects on system’s bistability. These results highlighted the importance of added death rate in driving multistability (Fig. S2, line 136-142). 

      For the interspecies interaction strength, we first extended our analysis on two-species populations. By calculating the bistability probability under different values of 𝛾, we showed that when interspecies interaction strength was smaller than 1, the influence of HGT on population bistability became weak (Fig. S3, line 143-147). We also considered heterogenous interaction strengths in multispecies communities, by randomly sampling 𝛾<sub>ij</sub> values from uniform distributions. While our results suggested the heterogeneous distribution of 𝛾<sub>ij</sub> didn’t fundamentally change the main conclusion, the mean value and variance of 𝛾<sub>ij</sub> affected the influence of HGT on multistability. The effects of HGT on community multistability becomes stronger when the mean value of 𝛾<sub>ij</sub> gets larger than 1 and the variance of 𝛾<sub>ij</sub> is small (Fig. S12, line 190-196).

      We also analyzed different ranges of growth rates effects of mobile genetic elements. In particular, we sampled 𝜆<sub>ij</sub> values from uniform distributions with given widths. Greater width led to larger range of growth rate effects. We used five-species populations as an example and tested different ranges. Our results suggested that multistability was more feasible when the growth rate effects of MGEs were small. The qualitative relationship between HGT and community was not dependent on the range of growth rate effects (Fig. S13, line 197-205).

      (2) The authors previously developed this theoretical model to study the impact of horizontal gene transfer on species coexistence. In this sense, it seems that the authors are exploring a different (stronger interspecies competition) range of parameter values of the same model, which could potentially limit novelty and generality.

      We appreciate the comment. In a previous work (PMID: 38280843), we developed a theoretical model that incorporated horizontal gene transfer process into the classic LV framework. This model provides opportunities to investigate the role of HGT in different open questions of microbial ecology. In the previous work, we considered one fundamental question: how competing microbes coexist stably. In this work, however, we focused on a different problem: how alternative stable states emerge in complex communities. While the basic theoretical tool that we applied in the two works were similar, the scientific questions, application contexts and the implications of our analysis were largely different. The novelty of this work arose from the fact that it revealed the conceptual linkage between alternative stable states and a ubiquitous biological process, horizontal gene transfer. This linkage is largely unknown in previous studies. Exploring such a linkage naturally required us to consider stronger interspecies competitions, which in general would diminish coexistence but give rise to multistability. We believe that the analysis performed in this work provide novel and valuable insights for the field of microbial ecology. 

      With all the supplemented simulations that we carried out in light of the all the reviewer’s comments, we believe the updated manuscript also provide a unified framework to understand how different biological processes collectively shaped the multistability landscape of complex microbiota undergoing horizontal gene transfer. The comprehensive analyses performed and the diverse scenarios considered in this study also contribute to the novelty and generality of this work.  

      (3) The authors analyze several scenarios that, in my opinion, naturally follow from the results and parameter value choices in the first sections, making their analysis not very informative. For example, after showing that horizontal gene transfer can increase multistability both between pairs of species and in a community context, the way they model different niches does not bring significantly new results. Given that the authors showed previously in the manuscript that horizontal gene transfer can impact multistability in a community in which all species interact with each other, one might expect that it will also impact multistability in a larger community made of (sub)communities that are independent of (not interacting with) each-which is the proposed way for modelling niches. A similar argument can be made regarding the analysis of (spatially structured) metacommunities. It is known that, for smaller enough dispersal rates, space can promote regional diversity by enabling each local community to remain in a different stable state. Therefore, in conditions in which the impact of horizontal gene transfer drives multistability, it will also drive regional diversity in a metacommunity.

      Thanks. Based on the reviewer’s comments, we have move Fig. 3 and 4 to Supplementary Information. In the updated manuscript, we have focused more on analyzing the roles of different parameters in shaping community multistability.

      (4) In some cases, the authors consider that mobile genetic elements can lead to ~50% growth rate differences. In the presence of an added death rate, this can be a relatively strong advantage that makes the fastest grower easily take over their competitors. It would be important to discuss biologically relevant examples in which such growth advantages driven by mobile genetic elements could be expected, and how common such scenarios might be.

      We appreciate the suggestion. Mobile genetic elements can drive large growth rate differences when they encode adaptative traits like antibiotic resistance (line 197-198). 

      We also analyzed different ranges of growth rates effects of mobile genetic elements, by sampling 𝜆<sub>ij</sub> values from uniform distributions with given widths. Our results suggested that multistability was more feasible when the fitness effects of MGEs were small (Fig. S13b). The qualitative relationship between HGT and community was not dependent on the range of growth rate effects (Fig. S13a and b). We discussed these results in line 197-205 of the updated main text.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Hong et al. used a model they previously developed to study the impact of horizontal gene transfer (HGT) on microbial multispecies communities. They investigated the effect of HGT on the existence of alternative stable states in a community. The model most closely resembles HGT through the conjugation of incompatible plasmids, where the transferred genes confer independent growth-related fitness effects. For this type of HGT, the authors find that increasing the rate of HGT leads to an increasing number of stable states. This effect of HGT persists when the model is extended to include multiple competitive niches (under a shared carrying capacity) or spatially distinct patches (that interact in a grid-like fashion). Instead, if the mobile gene is assumed to reduce between-species competition, increasing HGT leads to a smaller region of multistability and fewer stable states. Similarly, if the mobile gene is deleterious an increase in HGT reduces the parameter region that supports multistability.

      This is an interesting and important topic, and I welcome the authors' efforts to explore these topics with mathematical modeling. The manuscript is well written and the analyses seem appropriate and well-carried out. However, I believe the model is not as general as the authors imply and more discussion of the assumptions would be helpful (both to readers + to promote future theoretical work on this topic). Also, given the model, it is not clear that the conclusions hold quite so generally as the authors claim and for biologically relevant parameters. To address this, I would recommend adding sensitivity analyses to the manuscript.

      We thank the reviewer for the agreeing that our work addressed an important topic and was wellconducted. We are also grateful for the suggestion on sensitivity analysis, which is very helpful to improve the rigor and generality of our conclusion. All the raised issues have been fully addressed in the updated manuscript and below.

      Specific points

      (1) The model makes strong assumptions about the biology of HGT, that are not adequately spelled out in the main text or methods, and will not generally prove true in all biological systems. These include:

      a) The process of HGT can be described by mass action kinetics. This is a common assumption for plasmid conjugation, but for phage transduction and natural transformation, people use other models (e.g. with free phage that adsorp to all populations and transfer in bursts).

      b) A subpopulation will not acquire more than one mobile gene, subpopulations can not transfer multiple genes at a time, and populations do not lose their own mobilizable genes. [this may introduce bias, see below].

      c) The species internal inhibition is independent of the acquired MGE (i.e. for p1 the self-inhibition is by s1).

      These points are in addition to the assumptions explored in the supplementary materials, regarding epistasis, the independence of interspecies competition from the mobile genes, etc. I would appreciate it if the authors could be more explicit in the main text about the range of applicability of their model, and in the methods about the assumptions that are made.

      We are grateful for the reviewer’s suggestions. In main text and methods of the updated manuscript, we have made clear the assumptions underlying our analysis. For point (a), we have clarified that our model primarily focused on plasmid transfer dynamics (line 74, 101, 517). Therefore, the process of HGT can be described by mass action kinetics, which is commonly assumed for plasmid transfer (line 537-538). For point (b), our model allows a cell to acquire more than one mobile genes. Please see our response to point (3) for details. We have also made it clear that we assumed the populations would not lose their own mobile gene completely (line 526-527). For (c), we have also clarified it in the updated manuscript (line 111-112, 527-528). 

      We have also performed a series of additional simulations to show the range of applicability of our model. In particular, we discuss the role of other mechanisms, including interspecies interaction strength, the growth rate effects of MGEs, MGE epistasis and microbial death rates in shaping the multistability of microbial communities undergoing HGT. These results were provided in Fig. S2, S3, S9, S10, S11, S12, S13 and S15.

      (2) I am not surprised that a mechanism that creates diversity will lead to more alternative stable states. Specifically, the null model for the absence of HGT is to set gamma to zero, resulting in pij=0 for all subpopulations (line 454). This means that a model with N^2 classes is effectively reduced to N classes. It seems intuitive that an LV-model with many more species would also allow for more alternative stable states. For a fair comparison, one would really want to initialize these subpopulations in the model (with the same growth rates - e.g. mu1(1+lambda2)) but without gene mobility.

      We appreciate the insightful comments. The reviewer was right that in our model HGT created additional subpopulations in the community. However, with or without HGT, we calculated the species diversity and multistability based on the abundances of the 𝑁 species (s<sub>i</sub> in our model), instead of all the p<sub>ij</sub> subpopulations. Therefore, although there exist more ‘classes’ in the model with HGT, the number of ‘classes’ considered when we calculated community diversity and multistability was equal. In light of the reviewer’s suggestion, we have also performed additional simulations, where we initialized the subpopulations in the model with nonzero abundances. Our results suggested that initializing the p<sub>ij</sub> subpopulations with non-zero abundances didn’t change the main conclusion (Fig. S11, line 188-189).

      (3) I am worried that the absence of double gene acquisitions from the model may unintentionally promote bistability. This assumption is equivalent to an implicit assumption of incompatibility between the genes transferred from different species. A highly abundant species with high HGT rates could fill up the "MGE niche" in a species before any other species have reached appreciable size. This would lead to greater importance of initial conditions and could thus lead to increased multistability.

      This concern also feels reminiscent of the "coexistence for free" literature (first described here http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.epidem.2008.07.001 ) which was recently discussed in the context of plasmid conjugation models in the supplementary material (section 3) of https://doi.org/10.1098/rstb.2020.0478 .

      We appreciate the comments. Our model didn’t assume the incompatibility between MGEs transferred from different species. Instead, it allows a cell to acquire more than one MGEs. In our model, p<sub>ij</sub> described the subpopulation in the 𝑖-th species that acquired the MGE from the 𝑗th species. Here, p<sub>ij</sub> can have overlaps with p<sub>ik</sub> (𝑗 ≠ 𝑘). In other words, a cell can belong to p<sub>ij</sub> and p<sub>ik</sub> at the same time. The p<sub>ij</sub> subpopulation is allowed to carry the MGEs from the other species. In the model, we used to describe the influence of the other MGEs on the growth of p<sub>ij</sub>.

      We also thank the reviewer for bringing two papers into our attention. We have cited and discussed these papers in the updated manuscript (line 355-362).

      (4) The parameter values tested seem to focus on very large effects, which are unlikely to occur commonly in nature. If I understand the parameters in Figure 1b correctly for instance, lambda2 leads to a 60% increase in growth rate. Such huge effects of mobile genes (here also assumed independent from genetic background) seem unlikely except for rare cases. To make this figure easier to interpret and relate to real-world systems, it could be worthwhile to plot the axes in terms of the assumed cost/benefit of the mobile genes of each species.

      Thanks for the comments. In the main text, we presented one simulation results that assumed relatively large effects of MGE on species fitness, as the reviewer pointed out. In the updated manuscript, we have supplemented numerical simulations that considered different ranges of fitness effects, including the fitness effect as small as 10% (Fig. S13a). We have also plotted the relationship between community multistability and the assumed fitness effects of MGEs, as the reviewer suggested (Fig. S13b). Our results suggested that multistability was more feasible when the fitness effects of MGEs were small, and changing the range of MGE fitness effects didn’t fundamentally change our main conclusion. These results were discussed in line 197-205 of the updated main text.

      Something similar holds for the HGT rate (eta): given that the population of E. coli or Klebsiella in the gut is probably closer to 10^9 than 10^12 (they make up only a fraction of all cells in the gut), the assumed rates for eta are definitely at the high end of measured plasmid transfer rates (e.g. F plasmid transfers at a rate of 10^-9 mL/CFU h-1, but it is derepressed and considered among the fastest - https://doi.org/10.1016/j.plasmid.2020.102489 ). To adequately assess the impact of the HGT rate on microbial community stability it would need to be scanned on a log (rather than a linear) scale. Considering the meta-analysis by Sheppard et al. it would make sense to scan it from 10^-7 to 1 for a community with a carrying capacity around 10^9.

      We thank the reviewer for the constructive suggestion. We have carried out additional simulations by scanning the 𝜂 value from 10<sup>-7</sup> to 1. The results suggested that increasing HGT rates started to promote multistability when 𝜂 value exceeded 10<sup>-2</sup> per hour (Fig. S9, line 337-346). This corresponds to a conjugation efficiency of 10<sup>-11</sup> cell<sup>-1</sup> ∙ mL<sup>-1</sup>∙ mL when the maximum carrying capacity equals 10<sup>9</sup> cellsmL<sup>-1</sup>, or a conjugation efficiency of 10<sup>-14</sup> cell<sup>-1</sup> ∙ hr<sup>-1</sup>∙ mL when the maximum carrying capacity equals 10<sup>12</sup> cellsmL<sup>-1</sup>.

      (5) It is not clear how sensitive the results (e.g. Figure 2a on the effect of HGT) are to the assumption of the fitness effect distribution of the mobile genes. This is related to the previous point that these fitness effects seem quite large. I think some sensitivity analysis of the results to the other parameters of the simulation (also the assumed interspecies competition varies from figure to figure) would be helpful to put the results into perspective and relate them to real biological systems.

      We appreciate the comments. In light of the reviewer’s suggestion, we have changed the range of the fitness effects and analyzed the sensitivity of our predictions to this range. As shown in Fig. S13, changing the range of MGE fitness effects didn’t alter the qualitative interplay between HGT and community multistability. We have also examined the sensitivity of the results to the strength of interspecies competition strength (Fig. S3, S10, S12). These results suggested that while the strength of interspecies interactions played an important role in shaping community multistability, the relationship between HGT rate and multistability was not fundamentally changed by varying interaction strength. In addition, we examined the role of death rates (Fig. S2). In the updated manuscript, we discussed the sensitivity of our prediction to these parameters in line 136-147, 190205, 335-354.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Please find below a few suggestions that, in my opinion, could help improve the manuscript.

      TITLE

      It might not be clear what I 'gene exchange communities' are. Perhaps it could be rewritten for more specificity (e.g. '...communities undergoing horizontal gene transfer').

      We have updated the title as the reviewer suggested.

      ABSTRACT

      The abstract could also be edited to improve clarity and specificity. Terms like 'complicating factors' are vague, and enumerating specific factors would be better. The results are largely based on simulations, no analytical results are plotted, so I find that the sentence starting with 'Combining theoretical derivation and numerical simulations' can be a bit misleading.

      We appreciate the suggestions. We have enumerated the specific factors and scenarios in the updated abstract (line 18-26). We have also replaced 'Combining theoretical derivation and numerical simulations' with ‘Combining mathematical modeling and numerical simulations’.

      INTRODUCTION

      -  Line 42, please revise this paragraph. The logical flow is not so clear, it seems a bit like a list of facts, but the main message might not be clear enough. Also, it would be good to define 'hidden' states or just rewrite this sentence.

      We appreciate the suggestion. In the updated manuscript, we have rewritten this paragraph to improve the logical flow and clarity (line 46-52).

      -  Line 54, there is little detail about both theoretical models and HGT in this paragraph, and mixing the two makes the paragraph less focused. I suggest to divide into two paragraphs and expand its content. For example, you could explain a bit some relevant implications of MGE.

      We appreciate the suggestion. In the updated manuscript, we have divided this paragraph into two paragraphs, focusing on theoretical models and HGT, respectively (line 55-71). In particular, we have added explanations on the implications of MGEs (line 66-69), as the reviewer suggested.

      -  Line 72, as mentioned in the abstract, it would be better to explicitly mention which confounding factors are going to be discussed.

      Thanks for the suggestion. We have rewritten this part as “We further extended our analysis to scenarios where HGT changed interspecies interactions, where microbial communities were subjected to strong environmental selections and where microbes lived in metacommunities consisting of multiple local habitats. We also analyzed the role of different mechanisms, including interspecies interaction strength, the growth rate effects of MGEs, MGE epistasis and microbial death rates in shaping the multistability of microbial communities. These results created a comprehensive framework to understand how different dynamic processes, including but not limited to HGT rates, collectively shaped community multistability and diversity” (line 75-82).

      RESULTS

      -  The basic concepts (line 77) should be explained with more detail, keeping the non-familiar reader in mind. The reader might not be familiar with the concept of bistability in terms of species abundance. Also, note that mutual inhibition does not necessarily lead to positive feedback, as an interaction strength between 0 and 1 might still be considered inhibition. In any case, in Figure 1 it is not obvious how the positive feedback is represented, the caption should explain it. Note that neither the main text nor the caption explains the metaphor of the landscape and the marble that you are using in Figure 1a.

      We have rewritten this paragraph to provide more details on the basic concepts (line 86-99). We have removed the statement about ‘mutual inhibition’ to avoid being misleading. We have also updated the caption of Fig. 1a to explain the metaphor of the landscape and the marble (line 389396). 

      -  In the classical LV model, bistability does not depend on growth rates, but only on interaction strength. Therefore, I think that much of the results are significantly influenced by the added death rate. I believe that if the death rate is set to zero, mobile genetic elements that only modify growth rates will have no effect on the system's bistability. Because of this, I think that a thorough analysis of the role of the added death (dilution) rate and the distribution of growth rates is especially needed.

      We are grateful for the reviewer’s insightful comments. In the updated manuscript, we have thoroughly analyzed the role of the added death (dilution) rate on the bistability of communities composed of two species (Fig. S2). Indeed, as the reviewer pointed out, if the death rate equals zero, mobile genetic elements that only modify growth rates will have no effect on the system's bistability. We have discussed the role of death rate in line 136-142 of the updated manuscript.

      We have also expanded our analysis on the distribution of growth rates. In particular, we considered different ranges of growth rates effects of mobile genetic elements, by sampling 𝜆<sub>ij</sub> values from uniform distributions with given widths (Fig. S13). Greater width led to larger range of growth rate effects. We used five-species populations as an example and tested different ranges.

      Our results suggested that multistability was more feasible when the growth rate effects of MGEs were small (Fig. S13b). The qualitative relationship between HGT and community was not dependent on the range of growth rate effects (Fig. S13a). These results are discussed in line 197205 of the updated manuscript.

      -  The analysis uses gamma values that, in the absence of an added death rate, render a species pair bistable. Therefore, multistability would be quite expected for a 5 species community. Note that, multistability is possible in communities of more than 2 species even if all gamma values are smaller than 1. Analyzing a wide range of interaction strength distributions would really inform on the relative role of HGT in multistability across different community scenarios.

      We are grateful for the reviewer’s suggestion. In light of the reviewer’s comments, in the updated manuscript, we have performed additional analysis by focusing on a broader range of interaction strengths (Fig. S3, S10, S12), especially the gamma values below 1 (Fig. S10). Our results agreed with the reviewer’s notion that multistability was possible in communities of more than 2 species even if all gamma values were smaller than 1 (Fig. S10). 

      -  I would recommend the authors extend the analysis of the model used for Figures 1 and 2. Figures 3 and 4 could be moved to the supplement (see my point in the public review), unless the authors extend the analysis to explain some non-intuitive outcomes for niches and metacommunities.

      Thanks. In the updated manuscript we have performed additional simulations to extend the analysis in Figure 1 and 2. These results were presented in Fig. S2, S3, S9, S10, S11, S12, and S13. We have also moved Figure 3 and 4 to SI as the reviewer suggested.

      -  The authors seem to refer to fitness and growth rates as the same thing. This could lead to confusion - the strongest competitor in a species pair could also be interpreted as the fittest species despite being the slowest grower. I think there's no need to use fitness if they refer to growth rates. In any case, they should define fitness if they want to use this concept in the text.

      We are grateful for the insightful suggestion. To avoid confusion, we have used ‘growth rate’ throughout the updated manuscript.

      -  Across the text, the language needs some revision for clarity, specificity, and scientific style. In lines 105 - 109 there are some examples, like the use of 'in a lot of systems', and ' interspecies competitions' (I believe they mean interspecies interaction strengths).

      We appreciate the reviewer for pointing them out. We have thoroughly checked the text and made the revisions whenever applicable to improve the clarity and specificity.

      -  Many plots present the HGT rate on the horizontal axis. Could the authors explain why is it that the rate of HGT is relatively important for the number of alternative stable states? I understand how from zero to a small positive number there is a qualitative change. Beyond that, it shouldn't affect bistability too much, I think. If I am right, then other parameters could be more informative to plot in the horizontal axis. If I am wrong, I think that providing an explanation for this would be valuable.

      Thanks. To address the reviewer’s comment, we have systematically analyzed the effects of HGT on community multistability, by scanning the HGT rate from 10<sup>-7</sup> to 10<sup>0</sup>hr<sup>-1</sup> . In communities of two or multiple species, our simulation results showed that multistability gradually increased with HGT rate when HGT rate exceeded 10<sup>2</sup>hr<sup>-1</sup>. These results, presented in Fig. S9 and discussed in line 337-346, provided a more quantitative relationship between multistability and HGT rate.

      While in this work we showed the potential role of HGT in modulating community multistability, our results didn’t exclude the role of the other parameters. Motivated by the comments raised by the reviewers, in the updated manuscript, we have performed additional simulations to analyze the influence of other parameters in shaping community multistability. These parameters include death or dilution rate (Fig. S2), interaction strength (Fig. S3, S9, S10, S11, S12, S14, S15), 𝜆 range (Fig. S13, S15) and 𝛿 value (Fig. 3g, h, i). In many of the supplemented results (Fig. S2b, S3b, S13b, Fig. 3g, 3h and 3i), we have also plotted the data by using these parameters as the x axis. We believe the updated work now provided a more comprehensive framework to understand how different mechanisms, including but not limited to HGT, might shape the multistability of complex microbiota. These points were discussed in line 136-147, 190-205, 238-253, 334-354 of the updated main text. 

      -  My overall thoughts on the case of antibiotic exposure are similar to those of previous sections. Very few of the different parameters of the model are analyzed and discussed. In this case, the authors increased the interaction strength to ~0.4 times higher compared to previous sections. Was this necessary, and why?

      Thanks for the comments. In the previous draft, the interaction strength 𝛾=1.5 was tested as an example. Motivated by the reviewer’s comments, in the updated manuscript, we have examined different interaction strengths, including the strength ( 𝛾 = 1.1 ) commonly tested in other scenarios. The prediction equally held for different 𝛾 values (Fig. S15). We have also analyzed different 𝜆 ranges (Fig. S15). These results, together with the analyses presented in the earlier version of the manuscript, suggested the potential role of HGT in promoting multistability for communities under strong selection. The supplemented results were presented in Fig. S15 and discussed in line 293-295 of the updated manuscript.

      -  Line 195, if a gene encodes for the production of a public good, why would its HGT reduce interaction strength? I can think of the opposite scenario: the gene is a public good, and without HGT there is only one species that can produce it. Let's imagine that the public good is an enzyme that deactivates an antibiotic that is present in the environment, and then the species that produces has a positive interaction with another species in a pairwise coculture. If HGT happens, the second species becomes a producer and does not need the other one to survive in the presence of antibiotics anymore. The interaction can then become more competitive, as e.g. competition for resources could become the dominant interaction.

      We are grateful for pointing it out. In the updated manuscript, we have removed this statement.

      DISCUSSION

      -  L 267 "by comparison with empirical estimates of plasmid conjugation rates from a previous study [42], the HGT rates in our analysis are biologically relevant in a variety of natural environments". The authors are using a normalized model and the relevance of other parameter values is not discussed. If the authors want to claim that they are using biologically relevant HGT, they should also discuss whether the rest of the parameter values are biologically relevant. I recommend relaxing this statement about HGT rates.

      We appreciate the suggestion. We agree with the reviewer that other parameters including the death/dilution rate, interactions strength and 𝜆 ranges are also important in shaping community multistability. We have performed additional analysis to show the effects of these parameters. In light of the reviewer’s suggestion, we have relaxed this statement and thoroughly discussed the context-dependent effect of HGT as well as the roles of different parameters (line 334-354).

      -  Last sentence: "Therefore, inhibiting the MGE spread using small molecules might offer new opportunities to reshape the stability landscape and narrow down the attraction domains of the disease states". It is not clear what procedure/technique the authors are suggesting. If they want to keep this statement, the authors should give more details on how small molecules can be/are used to inhibit MGE.

      We appreciated the comments. Previous studies have shown some small molecules like unsaturated fatty acids can inhibit the conjugative transfer of plasmids. By binding the type IV secretion traffic ATPase TrwD, these compounds limit the pilus biogenesis and DNA translocation. We have provided more details regarding this statement in the updated manuscripts (line 376-379).

      METHODS

      -  Line 439, mu_i should be presented as the maximum 'per capita' growth rate.

      We have updated the definition of 𝜇i following the suggestion (line 529).

      -  Line 444, this explanation is hard to follow, please expand it to provide more details. You could provide an example, like explaining that all individuals from S1 have the MGE1 and therefore they have mu_1 = mu_01 ... After HGT, their fitness changes if they get the plasmid from S2, so a term lambda2 appears.

      Thanks. In the updated manuscript, we have expanded the explanation by providing an example as the reviewer suggested (line 534-537).

      -  The normalization assumes a common carrying capacity Nm (Eqs 1-4) and then it's normalized (Eqs. 5-8). It would be better to start from a more general scenario in which each species has a different carrying capacity and then proceed with the normalization.

      We appreciate the suggestion. In the updated manuscript, we have started our derivation from the scenario where each species has a different carrying capacity before proceeding with the normalization (section 1 of Methods, line 516-554). The same equations can be obtained after normalization.

      -  I think that the meaning of kappa (the plasmid loss rate) is not explained in the text.

      Thanks for pointing it out. We have explained the meaning of kappa in the updated text (line 108, 154, 539-541, 586-587, 607).

      SUPPLEMENT

      -  Figure S4, what are the different colors in panel b?

      In panel b of Fig. S4, the different colors represent the simulation results repeated with randomized growth rates. We have made it clear in the updated SI.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Please extend your description of the model, so it is easier to understand for readers who have not read the first paper. Especially the choice to describe the model as species and subpopulations, as opposed to writing it as MGE-carrying and MGE-free populations of each species makes it quite complicated to understand which parameters influence each other.

      Thanks for the suggestion. We have extended the model description in the updated manuscript, which provides a more detailed introduction on model configurations and parameter definitions (line 86-99, 101-113, 151-159). We have also updated the Methods to extend the model description.

      (2) Please define gamma_ji in equation 13 and eta_jki in equation 14 (how to map the indices onto the assumed directionality of the interaction).

      We have defined these two parameters in the updated manuscript (line 584-586, 630-632).

      (3)  Line 511: please add at the beginning of this paragraph that you are assuming a grid-like arrangement of patches which will be captured by dispersal term H.

      We have updated this paragraph to make this assumption clear (line 636-637).

      (4)  Line 540: "used in our model" (missing a word).

      We have corrected it in the updated manuscript.

      (5)  Currently the analyses looking at the types of growth effects HGT brings (Figures 5-7) feel very "tacked on". These are not just "confounding factors", but rather scenarios that are much more biologically realistic than the assumption of independent effects. I would introduce them earlier in the text, as I think many readers may not trust your results until they know this was considered (+ how it changes the conclusions).

      We are grateful for the suggestion. We agree with the reviewer that these biologically realistic scenarios should be introduced earlier in the text. In the updated manuscript, we have moved these analyses forward, as sections 3, 4 and 5. We have also avoided the term “confounding factors”. Instead, in the updated manuscript, we have separated these analyses into different sections, and clearly described each scenario in the section title (line 217-218, 254, 275).

      (6)  In some places the manuscript refers to HGT, in others to MGE presence (e.g. caption of Figure 6). These are not generally the same thing, as HGT could also occur due to extracellular vesicles or natural transformation etc. Please standardize the nomenclature and make it clearer which type of processes the model describes.

      We appreciate the comment. The model in this work primarily focused on the process of plasmid transfer. We have made it clear throughout the main text. 

      (7)  In many figures the y-axis starts at a value other than 0. This is a bit misleading. In addition, I would recommend changing the title "Area of bistability region" to "Area of bistability" or perhaps even "Area of multistability" (since more than two species are considered).

      Thanks for the suggestion. We have updated all the relevant figures to make sure that their y-axes start at 0. We have also changed the title “Area of bistability region” to “Area of multistability”, whenever it is applicable.

      (8)  Figure 7: what are the assumed fitness effects of the mobile genes in the simulation? Which distribution were they drawn from? Please add this info to the figure caption here and elsewhere.

      In Figure 7, we explored an extreme scenario of the fitness effects of the mobile genes, where the population was subjected to strong environmental selection and only cells carrying the mobile gene could grow. Therefore, the carriage of the mobile gene changed the species growth rate from 0 to a positive value µ<sub>i</sub>. When calculating the number of stable states in the communities, we randomly drew the µ<sub>i</sub> values from a uniform distribution between 0.3 and 0.7 hr<sup>-1</sup>. We had added this information in the figure caption (line 505-508) and method (line 615-617) of the updated manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1:

      Detection of early-stage colorectal cancer is of great importance. Recently, both laboratory scientists and clinicians have reported different exosomal biomarkers to identify colorectal cancer patients.

      Here, the authors exhibited a full RNA landscape for plasma exosomes of 60 individuals, including 31 colorectal cancer (CRC) patients, 19 advanced adenoma (AA) patients, and 10 noncancerous controls. RNAs with high fold change, high absolute abundance, and various module attribution were used to construct RT-qPCR-based RNA models for CRC and AA detection.

      Overall, this is a well-performed proof-of-concept study to highlight exosomal RNAs as potential biomarkers of early-stage colorectal cancer and its precancerous lesions.

      Thank you for your careful evaluation and valuable suggestions, which have provided valuable guidance for the improvement of our paper. In response to your feedback, we have implemented the following improvements.

      (1) Depicting the full RNA landscape of circulating exosomes is still quite challenging. The authors annotated 58,333 RNA species in exosomes, most of which were lncRNAs, but the authors do not explain how they characterized those RNAs.

      Author response and action taken: Thanks for your comments. In the Supplementary Methods section titled "Identification of mRNAs and lncRNAs", we have provided a comprehensive explanation on the characterization of mRNAs and lncRNAs to address the concerns you raised. Characterization of long-chain RNAs is a great challenge. For lncRNA analysis, the transcriptome was assembled using the Cufflinks and Scripture based on the reads mapped to the reference genome. The assembled transcripts were annotated using the Cuffcompare program from the Cufflinks package. The unknown transcripts were used to screen for putative lncRNAs.

      (2) The authors tested their models in a medium size population of 124 individuals, which is not enough to obtain an accurate evaluation of the specificity and sensitivity of the biomarkers proposed here. External validation would be required.

      Author response and action taken: Thanks for your comments. We fully acknowledge the significance of external validations in the evaluation of diagnostic model performance. Unfortunately, as a pilot study, we currently do not have the conditions for a multicenter investigation. To mitigate result bias and overfitting effects, we implemented a rigorous variable selection strategy and enhanced model stability through 10-fold cross-validation. In the meantime, we will persist in our efforts to elevate the quality of our research and seek additional resources for external validation in future studies.

      Reviewer #2:

      The authors present an important study on the potential of small extracellular vesicle (sEV)-derived RNAs as biomarkers for the early detection of colorectal cancer (CRC) and precancerous adenoma (AA). The authors provide a detailed analysis of the RNA landscape of sEVs isolated from participants, identifying differentially expressed sEV-RNAs associated with T1a stage CRC and AA compared to normal controls. The paper further categorises these sEV-RNAs into modules and constructs a 60-gene model that successfully distinguishes CRC/AA from NC samples. The authors also validate their findings using RT-qPCR and propose an optimised classifier with high specificity and sensitivity. Additionally, the authors discuss the potential of sEV-RNAs in understanding CRC carcinogenesis and suggest that a comprehensive biomarker panel combining sEV-RNAs and proteins could be promising for identifying both early and advanced CRC patients. Overall, the study provides valuable insights into the potential clinical application of sEV-RNAs in liquid biopsy for the early detection of CRC and AA.

      Major strengths:

      (1) Comprehensive sEV RNA profiling: The study provides a valuable dataset of the whole-transcriptomic profile of circulating sEVs, including miRNA, mRNA, and lncRNA. This approach adds to the understanding of sEV-RNAs' role in CRC carcinogenesis and facilitates the discovery of potential biomarkers.

      (2) Detection of early-stage CRC and AA: The developed 60-gene t-SNE model successfully differentiated T1a stage CRC/AA from normal controls with high specificity and sensitivity, indicating the potential of sEV-RNAs as diagnostic markers for early-stage colorectal lesions.

      (3) Independent validation cohort: The study combines RNA-seq, RT-qPCR, and modelling algorithms to select and validate candidate sEV-RNAs, maximising the performance of the developed RNA signature. The comparison of different algorithms and consideration of other factors enhance the robustness of the findings.

      Thank you for your careful evaluation and valuable suggestions. These comments have been highly valuable for the performance evaluation and clinical applications of our work. In response to your feedback, we have implemented the following improvements.

      (1). Lack of analysis on T1-only patients in the validation cohort: While the study identifies key sEV-RNAs associated with T1a stage CRC and AA, the validation cohort is only half of the patients in T1(25 out of 49). It would be better to do an analysis using only the T1 patients in the validation cohort, so the conclusion is not affected by the T2-T3 patients.

      Author response and action taken: Thanks for your comments. This feedback is essential for ensuring consistency in the results with our previous findings. In this context, we revalidated various diagnostic panels using exclusively Stage I patients (Figure 7—figure supplement 2). To minimize the potential overfitting effect due to the reduction in sample size after partitioning, we implemented a 10-fold cross-validation for each panel and these panels exhibit promising performance in Stage I colorectal cancer (CRC) patients.

      Author response image 1.

      The ROC analysis of different sEV-RNA signatures in the prediction of Stage I CRC patients by different algorithms (a: 6-gene panel; b: 7-gene panel; c: 8-gene panel; d: 9-gene panel).

      (2). Lack of performance analysis across different demographic and tumor pathology factors listed in Supplementary Table 12. It's important to know if the sEV-RNAs identified in the study work better/worse in different age/sex/tumor size/Yamada subtypes etc.

      Author response and action taken: Thanks for your comments. This feedback will be immensely beneficial for clinical diagnosis. Similarly, cross-validation was performed in this section. We assessed the discriminative effects of CRC on NC, taking into account different age groups, genders, tumor sizes, and anatomical locations (Figure 7—figure supplement 3). Overall, these sEV RNA panels perform better in individuals under the age of 55 and in female patients. There is no significant difference in discriminative effects across different tumor sizes. Compared to rectal cancer, the discriminative effects are better in colon cancer.

      Author response image 2.

      The ROC analysis of different sEV-RNA signatures for predicting CRC patients using the Lasso regression algorithm in different clinical parameters (ab: age; cd: gender; ef: tumor size; gh: anatomical position).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study puts forth the model that under IFN-B stimulation, liquid-phase WTAP coordinates with the transcription factor STAT1 to recruit MTC to the promoter region of interferon-stimulated genes (ISGs), mediating the installation of m<sup>6</sup>A on newly synthesized ISG mRNAs. This model is supported by strong evidence that the phosphorylation state of WTAP, regulated by PPP4, is regulated by IFN-B stimulation, and that this results in interactions between WTAP, the m<sup>6</sup>A methyltransferase complex, and STAT1, a transcription factor that mediates activation of ISGs. This was demonstrated via a combination of microscopy, immunoprecipitations, m<sup>6</sup>A sequencing, and ChIP. These experiments converge on a set of experiments that nicely demonstrate that IFN-B stimulation increases the interaction between WTAP, METTL3, and STAT1, that this interaction is lost with the knockdown of WTAP (even in the presence of IFN-B), and that this IFN-B stimulation also induces METTL3-ISG interactions.

      Strengths:

      The evidence for the IFN-B stimulated interaction between METTL3 and STAT1, mediated by WTAP, is quite strong. Removal of WTAP in this system seems to be sufficient to reduce these interactions and the concomitant m<sup>6</sup>A methylation of ISGs. The conclusion that the phosphorylation state of WTAP is important in this process is also quite well supported.

      Weaknesses:

      The evidence that the above mechanism is fundamentally driven by different phase-separated pools of WTAP (regulated by its phosphorylation state) is weaker. These experiments rely relatively heavily on the treatment of cells with 1,6-hexanediol, which has been shown to have some off-target effects on phosphatases and kinases (PMID 33814344).

      Given that the model invoked in this study depends on the phosphorylation (or lack thereof) of WTAP, this is a particularly relevant concern.

      We are grateful for the reviewer’s positive comment and constructive feedback. 1,6-hexanediol (hex) was considered an inhibitor of hydrophobic interaction, thereby capable of dissolving protein phase separation condensates. Hex (5%-10% w/v) was still widely used to explore the phase separation characteristic and function on various protein, including some phosphorylated proteins such as pHSF1, or kinases such as NEMO1-3. Since hydrophobic interactions involved in various types of protein-protein interaction, the off-target effects of hex were inevitable. It has been reported that hex impaired RNA polymerase II CTD-specific phosphatase and kinase activity at 5% concentration4, which led to the reviewer’s concern. In response to this concern, we investigated the phosphorylation level of WTAP under hex concentration gradient treatment. Surprisingly, we found that both 2% and 5% hex maintained the PPP4c-mediated dephosphorylation level of WTAP but still led to the dissolution of WTAP LLPS condensates (Figure 5-figure supplement 1H; Author response image 1), indicating that hex dispersed WTAP phase separation in a phosphorylation-independent manner. Consistent with our findings, Ge et al. used 10% hex to dissolve WTAP phase separation condensates5. Additionally, we found the phosphorylation level of STAT1 was not affected by both 2% and 5% hex, revealing the off-target and impairment function of hex on kinases or phosphatases might not be universal (Figure 5-figure supplement 1H). Collectively, since the 5% hex we used did not influence the de-phosphorylation event of WTAP, function of WTAP LLPS mediating interaction between methylation complex and STAT1 revealed by our results was independent from its phosphorylation status.

      Author response image 1.

      mCherry-WTAP-rescued HeLa cells were treated with 10 ng/mL IFN-β together with or without 2% or 5% hex and 20 μg/mL digitonin for 1 hour or left untreated. Phase separation of mCherry-WTAP was observed through confocal microscopy. The number of WTAP condensates that diameter over 0.4 μm of n = 20 cells were counted through ImageJ and shown. Scale bars indicated 10 μm. All error bars, mean values ± SD, P-values were determined by unpaired two-tailed Student’s t-test of n = 20 cells in (B). For (A), similar results were obtained for three independent biological experiments.

      Related to this point, it is also interesting (and potentially concerning for the proposed model) that the initial region of WTAP that was predicted to be disordered is in fact not the region that the authors demonstrate is important for the different phase-separated states.

      A considerable number of proteins undergo phase separation via interactions between intrinsically disordered regions (IDRs). IDR contains more charged and polar amino acids to present multiple weakly interacting elements, while lacking hydrophobic amino acids to show flexible conformations6. In our study, we used PLAAC websites (http://plaac.wi.mit.edu/) to predict IDR domain of WTAP, and a fragment (234-249 amino acids) was predicted as prion-like domain (PLD). However, deletion of this fragment failed to abolish the phase separation properties of WTAP, which might be the main confusion to reviewers. To explain this issue, we checked the WTAP structure (within part of MTC complex) from protein data bank (https://www.rcsb.org/structure/7VF2) and found that the prediction of IDR has been renewed due to the update of different algorithm. IDR of WTAP expanded to 245-396 amino acids, encompassing the entire CTD region. Our results demonstrate that the CTD was critical for WTAP LLPS, as CTD deficiency significantly inhibited the formation of liquid condensates both in vitro and in cells. Also, phosphorylation sites on CTD were important for the phase transition of WTAP. These observations highlight the phosphorylation status on CTD region as a key driving force of phase separation, consistent with the established role of IDR in regulating LLPS. We have revised our description on WTAP IDR in our article following the reviewers’ suggestion.

      Taking all the data together, it is also not clear to me that one has to invoke phase separation in the proposed mechanism.

      In this article, we observed that WTAP underwent phase transition during virus infection and IFN-β treatment, and proposed a novel mechanism whereby post translational modification (PTM)-driven WTAP LLPS was required for the m<sup>6</sup>A modification of ISG mRNAs. To verify the hypothesis, we first demonstrated the relationship between PTM and phase separation of WTAP. We constructed WTAP 5ST-D and 5ST-A mutant to mimic WTAP phosphorylation and dephosphorylation status respectively, and figured out that dephosphorylated WTAP underwent LLPS. We also found that PPP4 was the main phosphatase to regulate WTAP dephosphorylation. To further investigation, we introduced the potent PPP4 inhibitor, fostriecin. Consistent with our findings in PPP4 deficient model, fostriecin treatment significantly inhibited the IFN-β-induced dephosphorylation of WTAP and disrupted its LLPS condensates, indicating that PPP4 was the key phosphatase recruited by IFN-β to regulate WTAP, confirming that PTM governs WTAP LLPS dynamics (Figure 2-figure supplement 1C and H). Furthermore, fostriecin-induced impairment of WTAP phosphorylation and phase separation correlated with reduced m<sup>6</sup>A modification level and elevated ISGs expression level (Figure 4C and Figure 4-figure supplement 1E). These findings together emphasized that dephosphorylation is required for WTAP LLPS.

      As for the function of WTAP LLPS, we assumed that WTAP might undergo LLPS to sequester STAT1 together with m<sup>6</sup>A methyltransferase complex (MTC) for mediating m<sup>6</sup>A deposition on ISG mRNAs co-transcriptionally under IFN-β stimulation. Given that hex dissolved WTAP LLPS condensates without affecting dephosphorylation status (Figure 5-figure supplement 1H; Author response image 1), various experiments we performed previously actually confirmed the critical role of WTAP LLPS during m<sup>6</sup>A modification (Figure 4A), as well as the mechanism that WTAP phase separation enhanced the interaction between MTC and STAT1 (Figure 5E-F). Subsequent to reviewer’s comments, more experiments were conducted for further validation. We found the WTAP liquid condensates formed by wild type (WT) WTAP or WTAP 5ST-A mutant (which mimics dephosphorylated-WTAP) could be dissembled by hex, which also led to the impairment of the interaction between STAT1, METTL3 and WTAP (Figure 5-figure supplement 1E). In addition, in vitro experiments demonstrated that hex treatment significantly disrupted the interaction between recombinant GFP-STAT1 and mCherry-WTAP which expressed in the E. coli system (Figure 5F and Figure 5-figure supplement 1G). Notably, this prokaryotic expression system lacks endogenous phosphorylation machinery, resulting in non-phosphorylated mCherry-WTAP. For further validation, we performed the interaction of WTAP WT or 5ST-A with the promoter regions of ISG as well as the m<sup>6</sup>A modification of ISG mRNAs were attenuated by WTAP LLPS dissolution (Figure 4E and Figure 6E). These findings together revealed that WTAP LLPS were the critical mediators of the STAT1-MTC interactions, ISG promoter regions binding and the co-transcription m<sup>6</sup>A modification.

      Collectively, our results demonstrated that IFN-β treatment recruited PPP4c to dephosphorylate WTAP, thereby driving the formation of WTAP liquid condensates which were essential for facilitating STAT1-MTC interaction and m<sup>6</sup>A deposition, subsequently mediated ISG expression. Since we revealed a strong association between PTM-regulated WTAP phase transition and its m<sup>6</sup>A modification function, WTAP LLPS was a novel and functionally distinct mechanism that must be reckoned with in this study.

      Author response image 2.

      Wild type (WT) WTAP or 5ST-A mutant-rescued WTAP<sup>sgRNA</sup> THP-1-derived macrophages are stimulated with or without with 10 ng/mL IFN-β together followed with 2% or 5% 1,6-hexanediol (hex) and 20 μg/mL digitonin for 1 hour or left untreated. antibody and imaged using confocal microscope. Scale bars indicated 10 μm.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      In this study, Cai and colleagues investigate how one component of the m<sup>6</sup>A methyltransferase complex, the WTAP protein, responds to IFNb stimulation. They find that viral infection or IFNb stimulation induces the transition of WTAP from aggregates to liquid droplets through dephosphorylation by PPP4. This process affects the m<sup>6</sup>A modification levels of ISG mRNAs and modulates their stability. In addition, the WTAP droplets interact with the transcription factor STAT1 to recruit the methyltransferase complex to ISG promoters and enhance m<sup>6</sup>A modification during transcription. The investigation dives into a previously unexplored area of how viral infection or IFNb stimulation affects m<sup>6</sup>A modification on ISGs. The observation that WTAP undergoes a phase transition is significant in our understanding of the mechanisms underlying m<sup>6</sup>A's function in immunity. However, there are still key gaps that should be addressed to fully accept the model presented.

      Major points:

      (1) More detailed analyses on the effects of WTAP sgRNA on the m<sup>6</sup>A modification of ISGs:

      a. A comprehensive summary of the ISGs, including the percentage of ISGs that are m<sup>6</sup>A-modified. merip-isg percentage

      b. The distribution of m<sup>6</sup>A modification across the ISGs. Topology

      c. A comparison of the m<sup>6</sup>A modification distribution in ISGs with non-ISGs. Topology

      In addition, since the authors propose a novel mechanism where the interaction between phosphorylated STAT1 and WTAP directs the MTC to the promoter regions of ISGs to facilitate co-transcriptional m<sup>6</sup>A modification, it is critical to analyze whether the m<sup>6</sup>A modification distribution holds true in the data.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s summary of our manuscript and the constructive assessment. We have conducted the related analysis accordingly to present the m<sup>6</sup>A modification in ISGs in our model as reviewers suggested. Our results showed that about 64.29% of core ISGs were m<sup>6</sup>A modified under IFN-β stimulation (Figure 3-figure supplement 1B; Figure 3G), which was consistent with the similar percentage in previous studies[7,8]. The m<sup>6</sup>A distribution of the ISGs transcripts including IFIT1, IFIT2, OAS1 and OAS2 was validated (Figure 3-figure supplement 1H).

      Generally, m<sup>6</sup>A deposition preferentially located in the vicinity of stop codon, while m<sup>6</sup>A modification was highly dynamic under different cellular condition. However, we compared the topology of m<sup>6</sup>A deposition of ISGs with non-ISGs, and found that m<sup>6</sup>A modification of ISG mRNAs showed higher preference of coding sequences (CDS) localization compared to global m<sup>6</sup>A deposition (Figure 3H). Similarly, various researches uncovered the m<sup>6</sup>A deposition regulated by co-transcriptionally m<sup>6</sup>A modification preferred to locate in the CDS [9-11]. Since our results of m<sup>6</sup>A modification distribution of ISGs was consistent with the co-transcriptional m<sup>6</sup>A modification characteristics, we believed that our hypothesis and results were correlated and consistent.

      (2) Since a key part of the model includes the cytosol-localized STAT1 protein undergoing phosphorylation to translocate to the nucleus to mediate gene expression, the authors should focus on the interaction between phosphorylated STAT1 and WTAP in Figure 4, rather than the unphosphorylated STAT1. Only phosphorylated STAT1 localizes to the nucleus, so the presence of pSTAT1 in the immunoprecipitate is critical for establishing a functional link between STAT1 activation and its interaction with WTAP.

      Thank you for the constructive comments. As we showed in Figure 4, we found the enhanced interaction between phase-separated WTAP and the nuclear-translocated STAT1 which were phosphorylated under IFN-β stimulation, indicating the importance of phosphorylation of STAT1. We repeated the immunoprecipitation experiments to clarify the function of pSTAT1 in WTAP interaction. Our results showed that IFN-β stimulation induced the interaction of WTAP with both pSTAT1 and STAT1 (Figure 5-figure supplement 1C), indicating that most of the WTAP-associated STAT1 was phosphorylated. Taken together, our data proved that LLPS WTAP bound with nuclear-translocated pSTAT1 under IFN-β stimulation.

      (3) The authors should include pSTAT1 ChIP-seq and WTAP ChIP-seq on IFNb-treated samples in Figure 5 to allow for a comprehensive and unbiased genomic analysis for comparing the overlaps of peaks from both ChIP-seq datasets. These results should further support their hypothesis that WTAP interacts with pSTAT1 to enhance m<sup>6</sup>A modifications on ISGs.

      Thank you for raising this thoughtful comment. In this study, MeRIP-seq and RNA-seq along with immunoprecipitation and immunofluorescence experiments supported that phase transition of WTAP enhanced its interaction to pSTAT1, thus mediating ISGs m<sup>6</sup>A modification and expression by enhancing its interaction with nuclear-translocated pSTAT1 during virus infection and IFN-β stimulation. However, how WTAP-mediated m<sup>6</sup>A modification was related to STAT1-mediated transcription remained unclear. Several researches have revealed the recruitment of m<sup>6</sup>A methyltransferase complex (MTC) to transcription start sites (TSS) of coding genes and R-loop structure by interacting with transcriptional factors STAT5B, SMAD2/3, DNA helicase DDX21, indicating the engagement of MTC mediated m<sup>6</sup>A modification on nascent transcripts at the very beginning of transcription [11-13]. These researches inspired us that phase-separated WTAP could be recruited to the ISG promoter regions via interacting with nuclear-translocated pSTAT1. To validate this mechanism, we have conducted ChIP-qPCR experiments targeting STAT1 and WTAP, revealed that IFN-β induced the comparable recruitment dynamics of both STAT1 and WTAP to ISG promoter regions (Figure 6A-B). Notably, STAT1 deficiency significantly abolished the bindings between WTAP and ISG promoter regions (Figure 6C). These findings established nuclear-translocated STAT1-dependent recruitment of phase separated WTAP and ISG promoter region, substantiated our hypothesis within the current study. We totally agree that ChIP-seq data will be more supportive to explore the mechanism in depth. We will continuously focus on the whole genome chromatin distribution of WTAP and explore more functional effect of transcriptional factor-dependent WTAP-promoter regions interaction in the future.

      Minor points:

      (1) Since IFNb is primarily known for modulating biological processes through gene transcription, it would be informative if the authors discussed the mechanism of how IFNb would induce the interaction between WTAP and PPP4.

      Protein phosphatase 4 (PPP4) is a multi-subunit serine/threonine phosphatase complex that participates in diverse biologic process, including DDR, cell cycle progression, and apoptosis[14]. Several signaling pathway such as NF-κB and mTOR signaling, can be regulated by PPP4. Previous research showed that deficiency of PPP4 enhanced IFN-β downstream signaling and ISGs expression, which was consistent with our findings that knockdown of PPP4C impaired WTAP-mediated m<sup>6</sup>A modification, enhanced the ISGs expression[15,16]. Since there was no significant enhancement in PPP4 expression level during 0-3 hours of IFN-β stimulation in our results, we explored the PTM that may influence the protein-protein interaction, such as ubiquitination. Intriguingly, we found the ubiquitination level of PPP4 was enhanced after IFN-β stimulation, which may affect the interaction between PPP4 and WTAP (Author response image 3). Further investigation between PPP4 and WTAP will be conducted in our future study.

      Author response image 3.

      HEK 293T transfected with HA-ubiquitin (HA-Ub) and Flag-PPP4 were treated with 10 ng/mL IFN-β or left untreated. Whole cell lysate (WCL) was collected and immunoprecipitation (IP) experiment using anti-Flag antibody was performed, followed with immunoblot. Similar results were obtained for three independent biological experiments.

      (2) The authors should include mCherry alone controls in Figure 1D to demonstrate that mCherry does not contribute to the phase separation of WTAP. Does mCherry have or lack a PLD?

      According to the crystal structure of mCherry protein in protein structure database RCSB-PDB, mCherry protein presents as a β-barrel protein, with no IDRs or multivalent interaction domains including PLD, indicating that mCherry protein has no capability to undergo phase separation. This characteristic makes it a suitable protein to tag and trace the localization or expression levels of proteins, and a negative control for protein phase separation studies. As the reviewer suggested, we include mCherry alone controls in the revised version (Figure 1D).

      (3) The authors should clarify the immunoprecipitation assays in the methods. For example, the labeling in Figure 2A suggests that antibodies against WTAP and pan-p were used for two immunoprecipitations. Is that accurate?

      Due to the lack of phosphorylated-WTAP antibody, the detection of phosphorylation of WTAP was conducted by WTAP-antibody-mediated immunoprecipitation. We conducted immunoprecipitation to pull-down WTAP protein by WTAP antibody, then used antibody against phosphoserine/threonine/tyrosine (pan-p) to detect the phosphorylation level of WTAP. To avoid the misunderstanding, we have modified the description from pan-p to pWTAP (pan-p) in figures and revised the figure legends.

      (4) The authors should include overall m<sup>6</sup>A modification levels quantified of GFP<sup>sgRNA</sup> and WTAP<sup>sgRNA</sup> cells, either by mass spectrometry (preferably) or dot blot.

      We thank reviewer for raising these useful suggestions. As we showed in Figure 3F and J-K, the m<sup>6</sup>A modification event and degradation of ISG mRNAs were significantly depleted in WTAP<sup>sgRNA</sup> cell lines, indicating that function of WTAP was deficient. Thus, we used the WTAP<sup>sgRNA</sup> #2 cell line to perform most of our experiment. Furthermore, we also found 46.4% of global m<sup>6</sup>A modification was decreased in WTAP<sup>sgRNA</sup> THP-1 cells than that of control cells with or without IFN-β stimulation (Author response image 4), further validating that level of m<sup>6</sup>A modification was significantly affected in WTAP<sup>sgRNA</sup> cells. Taken together, our data confirmed that m<sup>6</sup>A methyltransferase activity was efficiently inhibited in our WTAP<sup>sgRNA</sup> cells.

      Author response image 4.

      Control (GFP<sup>sgRNA</sup>) and WTAP<sup>sgRNA</sup> #2 THP-1-derived macrophages were treated with 10 ng/mL IFN-β for 4 hours. Global m<sup>6</sup>A level was detected and quantified through ELISA assays. All error bars, mean values ± SEM, P-values were determined by two-way ANOVA test independent biological experiments.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study presents a valuable finding on the mechanism used by WTAP to modulate the IFN-β stimulation. It describes the phase transition of WTAP driven by IFN-β-induced dephosphorylation. The evidence supporting the claims of the authors is solid, although major analysis and controls would strengthen the impact of the findings. Additionally, more attention to the figure design and to the text would help the reader to understand the major findings.

      Strength:

      The key finding is the revelation that WTAP undergoes phase separation during virus infection or IFN-β treatment. The authors conducted a series of precise experiments to uncover the mechanism behind WTAP phase separation and identified the regulatory role of 5 phosphorylation sites. They also succeeded in pinpointing the phosphatase involved.

      Weaknesses:

      However, as the authors acknowledge, it is already widely known in the field that IFN and viral infection regulate m<sup>6</sup>A mRNAs and ISGs. Therefore, a more detailed discussion could help the reader interpret the obtained findings in light of previous research.

      We are grateful for the positive comments and the unbiased advice by the reviewer. To interpret our findings in previous research, we have revised the manuscript carefully and added more detailed discussion on ISG mRNAs m<sup>6</sup>A modification during virus infection or IFN stimulation.

      It is well-known that protein concentration drives phase separation events. Similarly, previous studies and some of the figures presented by the authors show an increase in WTAP expression upon IFN treatment. The authors do not discuss the contribution of WTAP expression levels to the phase separation event observed upon IFN treatment. Similarly, METTL3 and METTL14, as well as other proteins of the MTC are upregulated upon IFN treatment. How does the MTC protein concentration contribute to the observed phase separation event?

      We thank reviewer for pointing out the importance of the concentration dependent phase transition. Previously, Ge et al. discovered that expression level of WTAP was up-regulated during LPS stimulation, thereby promoting WTAP phase separation ability and m<sup>6</sup>A modification, indicating that WTAP concentration indeed affects the phase separation event. In our article, we have generated the phase diagram with different concentration of recombinant mCherry-WTAP in vitro (Figure 1-figure supplement 1C). For in cells experiments, we constructed the TRE-mCherry-WTAP HeLa cells in which the expression of mCherry-WTAP was induced by doxycycline (Dox) in a dose-dependent manner (Author response image 5A). We detected the LLPS of mCherry-WTAP at different concentrations by increasing the doses of Dox, and found that WTAP automatically underwent LLPS only in an artificially high expression level (Author response image 5B). However, the cells we used to detect the WTAP phase separation in our article was mCherry-WTAP-rescued HeLa cells, in which mCherry-WTAP was introduced in WTAP<sup>sgRNA</sup> HeLa cells to stably express mCherry-WTAP. We had adjusted and verified the mCherry-WTAP expression level precisely to make the protein abundance similar to endogenous WTAP in wild type (WT) HeLa cells (Author response image 5C). We also repeated the IFN-β stimulation experiments and found no significant increase of WTAP protein level (Figure 5-figure supplement 1A). These findings indicated the phase separation of WTAP in our article was not artificially induced due to the extremely high protein expression level.

      MTC protein expression level was crucial for m<sup>6</sup>A modification during virus infection event. Rubio et al. and Winkler et al. revealed that WTAP, METTL3 and METTL14 were up-regulated after 24 hours of HCMV infection[8,17]. Recently, Ge et al. proposed that WTAP protein was degraded after 12 hours of VSV and HSV stimulation5,18. However, these studies only focused on the virus infection event, how the MTC protein expression change after direct IFN-β stimulation was still unclear. Our study investigated the transition change of WTAP under IFNβ stimulation in a short time, we detected the expression level of MTC proteins within 6 hours of IFN-β treatment, and found no significant enhancement of WTAP, METTL3 or METTL14 protein level and mRNA level (Figure 5-figure supplement 1B and Figure 5-figure supplement 1A;). Our in vitro experiments showed that introducing CFP-METTL3 protein have no significant influence on WTAP phase separation (Figure 4H). Additionally, we performed in cells experiments and found that increased expression of METTL3 had no effect on WTAP phase separation event (Author response image 5D). Taken together, WTAP phase separation can be promoted by dramatically increased concentration of WTAP both in vitro and in cells, but the phase separation of WTAP under IFN-β stimulation in our study was not related with the expression level of MTC proteins.

      Author response image 5.

      (A) Immunoblot analysis of the expression of mCherry-WTAP in TRE-mCherry-WTAP HeLa cells treated with different doses of doxycycline (Dox). Protein level of mCherry-WTAP was quantified and normalized to β-actin of n=3 independent biological experiments. Results were obtained for three independent biological experiments. (B) Phase separation diagram of mCherry-WTAP in TRE-mCherry-WTAP HeLa cells treated with different doses of Dox were observed through confocal microscopy. Representative images for three independent biological experiments were shown in b while number of WTAP condensates that diameter over 0.4 μm of n=80 cells were counted and shown as medium with interquartile range. Dotted white lines indicated the location of nucleus. Scale bars indicated 10 μm. (C) Immunoblot analysis of the expression of endogenous WTAP in wildtype (WT) HeLa cells and mCherry-WTAP-rescued WTAP<sup>sgRNA</sup> HeLa cells. (D) mCherry-WTAP-rescued HeLa cells were transfected with 0, 200 or 400 ng of Flag-METTL3, followed with 10 ng/mL IFN-β for 1 hour or left untreated (UT). Phase separation of mCherry-WTAP was observed through confocal microscopy. The number of WTAP condensates that diameter over 0.4 μm of n = 20 cells were counted through ImageJ and shown. Representative images of n=20 cells were shown. All error bars, mean values ± SD were determined by unpaired two-tailed Student’s t-test of n = 3 independent biological experiments in (A). For (A, C), similar results were obtained for three independent biological experiments.

      How is PP4 related to the IFN signaling cascade?

      Both reviewer #2 and reviewer #3 raised a similar point on the relationship between PPP4 and IFN signaling. In short, protein phosphatase 4 (PPP4) participates in diverse biologic process, including DDR, cell cycle progression and apoptosis14 and several signaling pathway. Previous research showed that deficiency of PPP4 enhanced IFN-β downstream signaling and ISGs expression, which was consistent with our findings that knockdown of PPP4C impaired WTAP-mediated m<sup>6</sup>A modification, and enhanced the ISGs expression[15,16]. Since there was no significant enhancement in PPP4C expression level during 0-3 hours of IFN-β stimulation in our results, we tried to explore the post-translation modification which may influence the protein-protein interaction, such as ubiquitination. Intriguingly, we found the ubiquitination level of PPP4 was enhanced after IFN-β stimulation, which may affect the interaction between PPP4 and WTAP (Author response image 4). Investigation between PPP4 and WTAP will be conducted in our further study (also see minor points 1 of reviewer#2).

      In general, it is very confusing to talk about WTAP KO as WTAPgRNA.

      As we describe above, all WTAP-deficient THP-1 cells were generated using the CRISPR-Cas9 system with WTAP-specific sgRNA, and used bulk cells instead of the monoclonal knockout cell for further experiments. Since monoclonal knockout cells were not obtained, we refer it as WTAP<sup>sgRNA</sup> THP-1 cells rather than WTAP-KO THP-1 cells. We confirmed that WTAP expression was efficiently knocked down in WTAP<sup>sgRNA</sup> THP-1 cells, and the m<sup>6</sup>A modification level was significantly impaired (Figure 3I, Figure 3-figure supplement 1A and Author response image 4), which was suitable for mechanism investigation.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Related to the points raised in 'weaknesses' above, if the authors want to claim that this mechanism is reliant on WTAP phase-separated states, additional controls should be done to demonstrate this. Based on the available data it seems that it is just as likely that the phosphorylation state of WTAP is mediating interactions with other factors and/or altering its subcellular localization, which may or may not be related to phase separation.

      We are grateful for the constructive suggestions. As we showed in , Figure 5-figure supplement 1H; Author response image 1 along with the explanation above, 5% hex dispersed the phase separation condensates of WTAP without affecting its phosphorylation status, proving the interaction between STAT1 and methylation complex impaired by hex was depended on WTAP LLPS but not its phosphorylation status (Figure 5E-H). To further confirmed the recruitment of WTAP LLPS on ISG promoter region, we performed the immunoprecipitation and ChIP-qPCR experiments of wild type (WT) WTAP, 5ST-D and 5ST-A rescued THP-1 cells. Our results uncovered the interaction between de-phosphorylated-mimic WTAP mutant and STAT1, and its binding ability with ISG promoter regions were depleted by hex without affecting its phosphorylation status (Author response image 2, Figure 5-figure supplement 1 F, Figure 6E). Taken together, we identified the de-phosphorylation event that regulated phase transition of WTAP during IFN-β stimulation, and proposed that LLPS of WTAP mediated by dephosphorylation was the key mechanism to bind with STAT1 and mediate the m<sup>6</sup>A modification on ISG mRNAs.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The author order is different for the main text and the supplementary file.

      Thank you for pointing out this mistake. We have corrected it in our revised version.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Signaling molecules? Do you mean RNA or protein post-translational modification?

      Thank you for pointing out this problem. In this sentence, we mean the post-translational modification of signaling proteins. We have corrected this mistake in our revised version.

      Line 145: Do you mean Figure 1C?

      We have corrected it in our revised version.

      Line 214: Are the cells KO for WTAP? Do you mean CRISPR KO? In general, it is easier to present WTAPgRNA as WTAPKO.

      Thank you for the constructive suggestion. As we explained above, in this project, all WTAP-deficient THP-1 cells were generated using the CRISPR-Cas9 system with WTAP-specific sgRNA, and used bulk cells instead of the monoclonal knockout cells. We confirmed that WTAP expression was efficiently knocked down in WTAP<sup>sgRNA</sup> THP-1 cells, and the m<sup>6</sup>A modification level was significantly impaired (Figure 3I, Figure3-figure supplement 1A and Author response image 4). Since monoclonal knockout cells were not obtained, we refer it as WTAP<sup>sgRNA</sup> THP-1 cells rather than WTAP-KO THP-1 cells.

      Line 221: WTAP KO has no effect on the expression level of transcription factors?

      Thank you for pointing out the uncritical expression. We have corrected this in our revised version.

      Figure 3C: I would suggest removing the tracks and showing the expression levels in TPMs.

      According to the reviewer’s suggestion, we have analyzed the results and showed the ISGs expression levels in fold change of TPMs (Figure 3D).

      Figure 4C: It seems that the IP efficiency from METTL3 is lower in WTAP KO cells. That may impact the author's conclusions.

      We have repeated the immunoprecipitation experiments of METTL3 and confirmed the immunoprecipitation (IP) efficiency from METTL3 had no difference between WTAP<sup>sgRNA</sup> cells and the control cells (Figure 5C).

      I would suggest performing an IP of WTAP with the 5StoA mutation to confirm the missing interaction with WTAP.

      According to the reviewer’s suggestion, we investigated the interaction between STAT1 and WTAP in WT cells and WTAP 5ST-A-rescued THP-1 cells. Our results showed that interaction between STAT1, METTL3 and WTAP were enhanced with WTAP 5ST-A mutation, which was depleted by hex treatment (Figure 5-figure supplement 1E). Thus, the interaction of WTAP WT or 5ST-A with the promoter regions of ISG were attenuated by WTAP LLPS dissolution (Figure 6E). Taken together, the interaction between STAT1 and MTC were relied on LLPS of WTAP.

      In the graphical abstract, it is confusing to represent WTAP as a line. All other proteins are presented as circles. It is easy to confuse WTAP protein with an RNA. Additionally, m<sup>6</sup>A is too big in size. It should be smaller than a protein.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this suggestion. We have modified the graphical abstract to avoid the confusion in our revised version (Figure 6F).

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      (8) Winkler, R., Gillis, E., Lasman, L., Safra, M., Geula, S., Soyris, C., Nachshon, A., Tai-Schmiedel, J., Friedman, N., Le-Trilling, V.T.K., et al. (2019). m(6)A modification controls the innate immune response to infection by targeting type I interferons. Nat Immunol 20, 173-182. 10.1038/s41590-018-0275-z.

      (9) Li, Y., Xia, L., Tan, K., Ye, X., Zuo, Z., Li, M., Xiao, R., Wang, Z., Liu, X., Deng, M., et al. (2020). N(6)-Methyladenosine co-transcriptionally directs the demethylation of histone H3K9me2. Nat Genet 52, 870-877. 10.1038/s41588-020-0677-3.

      (10) Huang, H., Weng, H., Zhou, K., Wu, T., Zhao, B.S., Sun, M., Chen, Z., Deng, X., Xiao, G., Auer, F., et al. (2019). Histone H3 trimethylation at lysine 36 guides m(6)A RNA modification co-transcriptionally. Nature 567, 414-419. 10.1038/s41586-019-1016-7.

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The model of phosphotransfer from Y169 IKK to S32 IkBa is compelling and an important new contribution to the field. In fact, this model will not be without controversy, and publishing the work will catalyze follow-up studies for this kinase and others as well. As such, I am supportive of this paper, though I do also suggest some shortening and modification.

      We appreciate the reviewers candid response on the difficulty of this study and the requirement of follow-up studies to confirm a direct transfer of the phosphate. We also have edited the manuscript to make it shorter.

      Generally, the paper is well written, but several figures should be quantified, and experimental reproducibility is not always clear. The first 4 figures are slow-going and could be condensed to show the key points, so that the reader gets to Figures 6 and 7 which contain the "meat" of the paper.

      We have indicated the experimental reproducibility in the methodology section against each assay. We have shortened the manuscript corresponding to sections describing figures 1-4. However, when we talked to some of our colleagues whose expertise do not align with kinases and IKK, we realized that some description were necessary to introduce them to the next figures. Additionally, we added Fig. S6 indicating that the radiolabelled phospho-IKK2 Y169F is unable to transfer its own phosphate group(s) to the substrate IkBa.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Phosphorylation of IκBα is observed after ATP removal, although there are ambiguous requirements for ADP.

      We agree with the reviewer that this observation is puzzling. We hypothesize that ADP is simultaneously regulating the transfer process likely through binding to the active site.

      It seems that the analysis hinges on the fidelity of pan-specific phosphotyrosine antibodies.

      We agree with the reviewer. To bolster our conclusion, we used antibodies from two different sources. These were Monoclonal mouse anti-Phospho-Tyrosine (catalogue number: 610000) was from BD Biosciences or from EMD Millipore (catalogue no. 05-321X).

      The analysis often returns to the notion that tyrosine phosphorylation(s) (and critical active site Lys44) dictate IKK2 substrate specificity, but evidence for this seems diffuse and indirect. This is an especially difficult claim to make with in vitro assays, omitting the context of other cellular specificity determinants (e.g., localization, scaffolding, phosphatases).

      We agree with the concerns that the specificity could be dependent on other cellular specificity determinants and toned down our claims where necessary. However, we would like to point out that the specificity of IKK2 towards S32 and S36 of IkBa in cells in response to specific stimuli is well-established. It is also well-established that its non-catalytic scaffolding partner NEMO is critical in selectively bringing IkBa to IKK from a large pool of proteins. The exact mechanism of how IKK2 choose the two serines amongst many others in the substrate is not clear.

      Multiple phosphorylated tyrosines in IKK2 were apparently identified by mass spectrometric analyses, but the data and methods are not described. It is common to find non-physiological post-translational modifications in over-expressed proteins from recombinant sources. Are these IKK2 phosphotyrosines evident by MS in IKK2 immunoprecipitated from TNFa-stimulated cells? Identifying IKK2 phosphotyrosine sites from cells would be especially helpful in supporting the proposed model.

      Mass spectrometric data for identification of phosphotyrosines from purified IKK2 is now incorporated (Figure S3A). Although we have not analyzed IKK2 from TNF-a treated cells in this study, a different study of phospho-status of cellular IKK2 indicated tyrosine phosphorylation (Meyer et al 2013).

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      The identity and purity of the used proteins is not clear. Since the findings are so unexpected and potentially of wide-reaching interest - this is a weakness. Similar specific detection of phospho-Ser/Thr vs phospho-Tyr relies largely on antibodies which can have varying degrees of specificity.

      We followed a stringent purification protocol of several steps (optimized for the successful crystallization of the IKK2) that removed most impurities (PMID: 23776406, PMID: 39227404). The samples analysed with ESI MS did not show any significant contaminating kinase from the Sf9 cells.

      Sequence specific phospho-antibodies used in this study are very well characterized and have been used in the field for years (Basak et al 2007, PMID: 17254973). We agree on the reviewer’s concerns on the pan-specific phospho-antibodies. Since phospho-tyrosine detection is the crucial aspect of this study, we minimized such bias by using pan-specific phosphotyrosine antibodies from two independent sources.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I understand that Figure 3 shows that K44M abolishes both S32/26 phosphorylation and tyrosine phosphorylation, but not PEST region phosphorylation. This suggests that autophosphorylation is reflective of its known specific biological role in signal transduction. But I do not understand why "these results strongly suggest that IKK2-autophosphorylation is critical for its substrate specificity". That statement would be supported by a mutant that no longer autophosphorylates, and as a result shows a loss of substrate specificity, i.e. phosphorylates non-specific residues more strongly. Is that the case? Maybe Darwech et al 2010 or Meyer et al 2013 showed this.

      Later figures seem to address this point, so maybe this conclusion should be stated later in the paper.

      We have now clarified this in the manuscript and moved the comment to the next section. We have consolidated the results in Figure 3 and 4 in the previous version into a single figure in Figure. The text has also been modified accordingly.

      Page 10: mentions DFG+1 without a proper introduction. The Chen et al 2014 paper appears to inform the author's interest in Y169 phosphorylation, or is it just an additional interesting finding? Does this publication belong in the Introduction or the Discussion?

      The position of Y169 at the DFG+1 was intriguing and the 2014 article Chen et al further bolstered our interest in this residue to be investigated. We think this publication is important in both sections. 

      To understand the significance of Figure 4D, we need a WT IKK2 control: or is there prior literature to cite? This is relevant to the conclusion that Y169 phosphorylation is particularly important for S32 phosphorylation.

      We have now added a new supplementary figure where activities of WT and Y169F IKK2 towards WT and S32/S36 mutants are compared (Figure S3F). At a similar concentration, the activity of WT-IKK2 is many fold higher than that of YtoF mutants (Fig. 4C). The experiments were performed simultaneously, although samples were loaded on different gels but otherwise processed in a similar way. The corresponding data is now included in the manuscript as Figure S3F.

      The cold ATP quenching experiment is nice for testing the model that Y169 functions as a phospho sink that allows for a transfer reaction. However, there is only a single timepoint and condition, which does not allow for a quantitative analysis. Furthermore, a positive control would make this experiment more compelling, and Y169F mutant should show that cold ATP quenching reduces the phosphorylation of IkBa.

      We thank the reviewer for appreciating our experimental design, and pointing out the concerns. We kept the ATP-time point as the maximum of the non-competition experiment. Also, we took 50mM ATP to compare its competition with highest concentration of ADP used. The idea behind using the maximum time and ATP (comparable to ADP) was to capture the effect of competitive-effect of ATP, if any, that would be maximal in the given assay condition in comparison with the phospho-transfer set up in absence of cold ATP. We agree that finer ranges of ATP concentration and time points would have enabled more quantitative analyses. We have now included data where different time intervals are tested (Figure S5D).

      Why is the EE mutant recognized by anti-phospho-serine antibodies? In Figure 2F.

      We anticipate Serine residues besides those in the activation loop to be phosphorylated when IKK2 is overexpressed and purified from the Sf9 cells. Since Glu (E) mimics phospho-Ser, the said antibody cross reacts with the IKK2-EE that mimics IKK2 phosphorylated at Ser177 and 181.

      Figure 7B is clear, but 7C does not add much.

      We have now removed the Fig. 7C in the current version. Figure 7 is now renumbered as Figure 6 that does not contain the said cartoon.  

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Regarding the specificity arguments (see above in public review), the authors note that NEMO is very important in IKK specificity, and - if I'm understanding correctly - most of these assays were performed without NEMO. Would the IKK2-NEMO complex change these conclusions?

      NEMO is a scaffolding protein whose action goes beyond the activation of the IKK-complex. In cells, NEMO brings IkBa from a pool of thousands of proteins to its bonafide kinase when the cells encounter specific signals. In other words, NEMO channels IKK-activity towards its bonafide substrate IkBa at that moment. Though direct proof is lacking, it is likely that NEMO present IkBa in the correct pose to IKK such that the S32/S36 region of IkBa is poised for phosphorylation. The proposed mechanism in the current study further ensures the specificity and fidelity of that phosphorylation event. We believe this mechanism will be preserved in the IKK-NEMO complex unless proven otherwise. As shown below, IKK2 undergoes tyrosine autophosphorylation in presence of NEMO.

      Author response image 1.

      The work primarily focuses on Y169 as a candidate target for IKK autophosphorylation. This seems reasonable given the proximity to the ATP gamma phosphate. However, Y188F more potently disrupted IκBα phosphorylation. The authors note that this could be due to folding perturbations, but this caveat would also apply to Y169F. A test for global fold perturbations for both Tyr mutants would be helpful.

      Y188 is conserved in S/T kinases and that in PKA (Y204) has been studied extensively using structural, biochemical and biophysical tools. It was found in case of PKA that Y204 participates in packing of the hydrophobic core of the large lobe. Disruption of this core structure by mutation allosterically affect the activity of the kinase. We also observed similar engagement of Y188 in IKK2’s large lobe, and speculated folding perturbations in analogy with the experimental evidence observed in PKA. What we meant was mutation of Y188 would allosterically affect the kinase activity. Y169 on the other hand is unique at that position, an no experimental evidence on the effect of phospho-ablative mutation of this residue exist in the literature. Hence, we refrained from speculating its effect on the folding or conformational allostery, however, such a possibility cannot be ruled out. 

      I struggled to follow the rationalization of the results of Figure 4D, the series of phosphorylation tests of Y169F against IκBα with combinations of phosphoablative or phosphomimetic variants at Ser32 and Ser36. This experiment is hard to interpret without a direct comparison to WT IKK2.

      We agree with the reviewer’s concerns. Through this experiment we wanted to inform about the importance of Tyr-phosphorylation of IKK2 in phosphorylating S32 of IκBα which is of vital importance in NF-kB signaling. We have now provided a comparison with WT-IKK2 in the supplementary Figure S3F. We hope this will help bring more clarity to the issue.

      MD simulations were performed to compare structures of unphosphorylated vs. Ser-phosphorylated (p-IKK2) vs. Ser+Tyr-phosphorylated (P-IKK2) forms of IKK2. These simulations were performed without ATP bound, and then a representative pose was subject to ADP or ATP docking. The authors note distortions in the simulated P-IKK2 kinase fold and clashes with ATP docking. Given the high cellular concentration of ATP, it seems more logical to approach the MD with the assumption of nucleotide availability. Most kinase domains are highly dynamic in the absence of substrate. Is it possible that the P-IKK2 poses are a result of simulation in a non-physiological absence of bound ATP? Ultimately, this MD observation is linked to the proposed model where ADP-binding is required for efficient phospho-relay to IκBα. Therefore, this observation warrants scrutiny. Perhaps the authors could follow up with binding experiments to directly test whether P-IKK2 binds ADP and fails to bind ATP.

      We thank that reviewer for bringing up this issue. This is an important issue and we must agree that we don’t fully understand it yet. We took more rigorous approach this time where we used three docking programs: ATP and ADP were docked to the kinase structures using LeDock and GOLD followed by rescoring with AutoDock Vina. We found that ATP is highly unfavourable to P-IKK2 compared to ADP. To further address these issues, we performed detailed MM-PBSA (Molecular Mechanics Poisson-Boltzmann Surface Area) analyses after MD-simulation to estimate binding free energies and affinities of ADP and ATP for each of the three differently phosphorylated states of IKK2. These analyses (Figure S4 E and F) clearly indicate that phosphorylated IKK2 have much higher preference for ADP over ATP. However, it does not negate ATP-binding by P-IKK2 in a different pose that may not support kinase activity.

      We could not perform any binding experiment because of the following reason. We incubated FL IKK2 WT with or without cold ATP for 30mins, and then incubated these samples with <sup>32</sup>P-ATP and analysed the samples by autoradiography after resolving them on a 10% SDS-PAGE. We found that even after pre-incubation of the kinase with excess cold ATP it still underwent autophosphorylation when radioactive ATP was added as shown below. This prevented us from doing direct binding experiment with ATP as it would not represent true binding event. We also noticed that after removal of bulk ATP post autophosphorylation, phosphorylated IKK2 is capable of further autophosphorylation when freshly incubated with ATP. We have not been able to come up with a condition that would only account for binding of ATP and not hydrolysis. 

      Author response image 2.

      The authors could comment on whether robust phosphorylation of NEMO was expected (Figure 1D). On a related note, why is NEMO a single band in the 1D left panel and double bands on the right?

      No, we did not expect robust phosphorylation of NEMO. However, robust phosphorylation of NEMO is observed only in the absence of IκBα. In presence of IκBα, phosphorylation of NEMO goes down drastically. These were two different preparations of NEMO. When TEV-digestion to remove His-tag is incomplete it gives two bands as the tagged and untagged versions cannot be separated in size exclusion chromatography which is the final step.

      Page 14, line 360. "...observed phosphorylation of tyrosine residue(s) only upon fresh ATP-treatment..." I'm not sure I understand the wording here (or the relevance of the citation). Is this a comment on unreported data demonstrating the rapid hydrolysis of the putative phosphotyrosine(s)? If so, that would be helpful to clarify and report in the supporting information.

      In our X-ray crystallographic studies with phosphorylated IKK2 we failed to observe any density of phosphate moiety. Furthermore, this IKK2 showed further autophosphorylation when incubated with fresh ATP. These two observations lead us to believe that some of the autophosphorylation are transient in nature. However, quantitative kinetic analyses of this dephosphorylation have not been performed.

      Figure S3 middle panel: The PKA substrate overlaid on the IKK2 seems sterically implausible for protein substrate docking. Is that just a consequence of the viewing angle? On a related note, Figure S3 may be mislabeled as S4 in the main text).

      It is a consequence of the viewing angle. Also, we apologize for this inadvertent mislabelling. It has been corrected in the current version.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The detection of phosphorylated amino acids relies largely on antibodies which can have a varying degree of specificity. An alternative detection mode of the phospho-amino acids for example by MS would strengthen the evidence.

      We agree with the concern of specificity bias of antibodies. We tried to minimize such bias by using two different p-Tyr antibodies as noted previously and also in the methodology section. We were also able to detect phospho-tyrosine residues by MS/MS analyses, representative spectra are now added (Figure S3A).

      IKK2 purity - protocol states "desired purity". What was the actual purity and how was it checked? MS would be useful to check for the presence of other kinases.

      Purity of the recombinantly purified IKK2s are routinely checked by silver staining. A representative silver stained SDS-PAGE is shown (Figure S1C). It may be noted that, there’s a direct correlation of expression level and solubility, and hence purification yield and quality with the activity of the kinase. Active IKK2s express at much higher level and yields cleaner prep. In our experience, inactive IKKs like K44M give rise to poor yield and purity. We analysed K44M by LC MS/MS to identify other proteins present in the sample. We did not find any significant contaminant kinase the sample (Figure S1D). The MS/MS result is attached.

      Figure 1C&D: where are the Mw markers? What is the size of the band? What is the MS evidence for tyrosine phosphorylation?

      We have now indicated MW marker positions on these figures.

      MS/MS scan data for the two peptides containing pTyr169 and pTyr188 are shown separately (Figure S3A).

      Figure 2F: Why is fresh ATP necessary? Why was Tyr not already phosphorylated? The kinetics of this process appear to be unusual when the reaction runs to completion within 5 minutes ?

      As stated earlier, we believe some of the autophosphorylation are transient in nature. We think the Tyr-phosphorylation are lost due to the action of cellular phosphatases. We agree with the concern of the reviewer that, the reaction appears to reach completion within 5 minutes in Fig 2F. We believe it is probably due to the fact that the amount of kinase used in this study exceeds the linear portion of the dynamic range of the antibody used. Lower concentration of the kinase do show that reaction does not reach completion until 60mins as shown in Fig. 2A.

      Figure 3: Can the authors exclude contamination with a Tyr kinase in the IKK2-K44M prep? The LC/MS/MS data should be included.

      We have reanalysed the sample on orbitrap to check if there’s any Tyr-kinase or any other kinase contamination. We used Spodoptera frugiperda proteome available on the Uniprot website for this analysis. These analyses confirmed that there’s no significant kinase contaminant present in the fraction (Figure S1D).

      What is the specificity of IKK-2 Inhibitor VII? Could it inhibit a contaminant kinase?

      This inhibitor is highly potent against IKK2 and the IKK-complex, and to a lesser extent to IKK1. No literature is available on its activity on other kinases. In an unrelated study, this compound was used alongside MAPK inhibitor SB202190 wherein they observed completely different outcomes of these two inhibitors (Matou-Nasri S, Najdi M, AlSaud NA, Alhaidan Y, Al-Eidi H, Alatar G, et al. (2022) Blockade of p38 MAPK overcomes AML stem cell line KG1a resistance to 5-Fluorouridine and the impact on miRNA profiling. PLoS ONE 17(5):e0267855. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0267855). This study indirectly proves that IKK inhibitor VII does not fiddle with the MAPK pathways. We have not found any literature on the non-specific activity of this inhibitor.

      Figure 6B: the band corresponding to "p-IkBa" appears to be similar in the presence of ADP (lanes 4-7) or in the absence of ADP but the presence of ATP (lane 8).

      Radioactive p-IκBα level is more when ADP is added than in absence of ADP. In presence of cold ATP, radioactive p-IκBα level remains unchanged. This result strongly indicate that the addition of phosphate group to IκBα happens directly from the radioactively labelled kinase that is not competed out by the cold ATP.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In the manuscript "Intergenerational transport of double-stranded RNA limits heritable epigenetic changes," Shugarts and colleagues investigate intergenerational dsRNA transport in the nematode C. elegans. By inducing oxidative damage, they block dsRNA import into cells, which affects heritable gene regulation in the adult germline (Fig. 2). They identify a novel gene, sid-1-dependent gene-1 (sdg-1), upregulated upon SID-1 inhibition (Fig. 3). Both transient and genetic depletion of SID-1 lead to the upregulation of sdg-1 and a second gene, sdg-2 (Fig. 5). Interestingly, while sdg-1 expression suggests a potential role in dsRNA transport, neither its overexpression nor loss-of-function impacts dsRNA-mediated silencing in the germline (Fig. 7).

      Strengths:

      • The authors employ a robust neuronal stress model to systematically explore SID-1 dependent intergenerational dsRNA transport in C. elegans.

      • They discover two novel SID-1-dependent genes, sdg-1 and sdg-2.

      • The manuscript is well-written and addresses the compelling topic of dsRNA signaling in C. elegans.

      Weaknesses:

      • The molecular mechanism downstream of SDG-1 remains unclear. Testing whether sdg-2 functions redundantly with sdg-1could provide further insights.

      • SDG-1 dependent genes in other nematodes remain unknown.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting the strengths of the work along with a couple of the interesting future directions inspired by the reported discoveries. The restricted presence of genes encoding SDG-1 and its paralogs within retrotransposons suggests intriguing evolutionary roles for these proteins. Future work could examine whether such fast-evolving or newly evolved proteins with potential roles in RNA regulation are more broadly associated with retrotransposons. Multiple SID-1-dependent proteins (including SDG-1 and SDG-2) could act together to mediate downstream effects. This possibility can be tested using combinatorial knockouts and overexpression strains. Both future directions have the potential to illuminate the evolutionarily selected roles of dsRNA-mediated signaling through SID-1, which remain a mystery.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      RNAs can function across cell borders and animal generations as sources of epigenetic information for development and immunity. The specific mechanistic pathways how RNA travels between cells and progeny remains an open question. Here, Shugarts, et al. use molecular genetics, imaging, and genomics methods to dissect specific RNA transport and regulatory pathways in the C. elegans model system. Larvae ingesting double-stranded RNA is noted to not cause continuous gene silencing throughout adulthood. Damage of neuronal cells expressing double-stranded target RNA is observed to repress target gene expression in the germline. Exogenous short or long double-stranded RNA required different genes for entry into progeny. It was observed that the SID-1 double-stranded RNA transporter showed different expression over animal development. Removal of the sid-1 gene caused upregulation of two genes, the newly described sid-1-dependent gene sdg-1 and sdg-2. Both genes were observed to be negatively regulated by other small RNA regulatory pathways. Strikingly, loss then gain of sid-1 through breeding still caused variability of sdg-1 expression for many, many generations. SDG-2 protein co-localizes with germ granules, intracellular sites for heritable RNA silencing machinery. Collectively, sdg-1 presents a model to study how extracellular RNAs can buffer gene expression in germ cells and other tissues.

      Strengths:

      (1) Very cleaver molecular genetic methods and genomic analyses, paired with thorough genetics, were employed to discover insights into RNA transport, sdg-1 and sdg-2 as sid-1-dependent genes, and sdg-1's molecular phenotype.

      (2) The manuscript is well cited, and figures reasonably designed.

      (3) The discovery of the sdg genes being responsive to the extracellular RNA cell import machinery provides a model to study how exogenous somatic RNA is used to regulate gene expression in progeny. The discovery of genes within retrotransposons stimulates tantalizing models how regulatory loops may actually permit the genetic survival of harmful elements.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The manuscript is broad, making it challenging to read and consider the data presented. Of note, since the original submission, the authors have improved the clarity of the writing and presentation.

      Comments on revised version:

      This reviewer thanks the authors for their efforts in revising the manuscript. In their rebuttal, the authors acknowledged the broad scope of their manuscript. I concur. While I still think the manuscript is a challenge to read due to its expansive nature, the current draft is substantially improved when compared to the previous one. This work will contribute to our general knowledge of RNA biology, small RNA regulatory pathways, and RNA inheritance.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting the strengths of the manuscript and for helping us improve the presentation of our results and discussion.


      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In the manuscript "Intergenerational transport of double-stranded RNA limits heritable epigenetic changes" Shugarts and colleagues investigate intergenerational dsRNA transport in the nematode C. elegans. They induce oxidative damage in worms, blocking dsRNA import into cells (and potentially affecting the worms in other ways). Oxidative stress inhibits dsRNA import and the associated heritable regulation of gene expression in the adult germline (Fig. 2). The authors identify a novel gene, sid-1-dependent gene-1 (sdg-1), which is induced upon inhibition of SID-1 (Fig. 3). Both transient inhibition and genetic depletion of SID-1 lead to the upregulation of sdg-1 and a second gene, sdg-2 (Fig. 5). The expression of SDG-1 is variable, potentially indicating buffering regulation. While the expression of Sdg-1 could be consistent with a role in intergenerational transport of dsRNA, neither its overexpression nor loss-of-function impacts dsRNA-mediated silencing (Fig. 7) in the germline. It would be interesting to test if sdg-2 functions redundantly.

      In summary, the authors have identified a novel worm-specific protein (sdg-1) that is induced upon loss of dsRNA import via SID-1, but is not required to mediate SID-1 RNA regulatory effects.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting our findings on SDG-1. We found that oxidative damage in neurons enhanced dsRNA transport into the germline and/or subsequent silencing.

      Remaining Questions:

      • The authors use an experimental system that induces oxidative damage specifically in neurons to release dsRNAs into the circulation. Would the same effect be observed if oxidative damage were induced in other cell types?

      It is possible that oxidative damage of other tissues using miniSOG (as demonstrated in Xu and Chisholm, 2016) could also enhance the release of dsRNA into the circulation from those tissues. However, future experiments would be needed to test this empirically because it is also possible that the release of dsRNA depends on physiological properties (e.g., the molecular machinery promoting specific secretion) that are particularly active in neurons. We chose to use neurons as the source of dsRNA because by expressing dsRNA in a variety of tissues, neurons appeared to be the most efficient at the export of dsRNA as measured using SID-1-dependent silencing in other tissues (Jose et al., PNAS, 2009).

      • Besides dsRNA, which other RNAs and cellular products (macromolecules and small signalling molecules) are released into the circulation that could affect the observed changes in germ cells?

      We do not yet know all the factors that could be released either in naive animals or upon oxidative damage of neurons that influence the uptake of dsRNA into other tissues. The dependence on SID-1 for the observed enhancement of silencing (Fig. 2) shows that dsRNA is necessary for silencing within the germline. Whether this import of dsRNA occurs in conjunction with other factors (e.g., the uptake of short dsRNA along with yolk into oocytes (Marré et al., PNAS, 2016)) before silencing within the germline will require further study. A possible approach could be the isolation of extracellular fluid (Banse and Hunter, J Vis Exp., 2012) followed by characterization of its contents. However, the limited material available using this approach and the difficulty in avoiding contamination from cellular damage by the needle used for isolating the material make it challenging.

      • SID-1 modifies RNA regulation within the germline (Fig. 7) and upregulates sdg-1 and sdg-2 (Fig. 5). However, SID-1's effects do not appear to be mediated via sdg-1. Testing the role of sdg-2 would be intriguing.

      We observe the accumulation of sdg-1 and sdg-2 RNA in two different mutants lacking SID-1, which led us to conservatively focus on the analysis of one of these proteins for this initial paper. We expect that more sensitive analyses of the RNA-seq data will likely reveal additional genes regulated by SID-1. With the ability to perform multiplexed genome-editing, we hope in future work to generate strains that have mutations in many SID-1-dependent genes to recapitulate the defects observed in sid-1(-) animals. Indeed, as surmised by the reviewer, we are focusing on sdg-2 as the first such SID-1-dependent gene to analyze using mutant combinations.

      • Are sdg-1 or sdg-2 conserved in other nematodes or potentially in other species?  appears to be encoded or captured by a retro-element in the C. elegans genome and exhibits stochastic expression in different isolates. Is this a recent adaptation in the C. elegans genome, or is it present in other nematodes? Does loss-of-function of sdg-1 or sdg-2 have any observable effect?

      Clear homologs of SDG-1 and SDG-2 are not detectable outside of C. elegans. Consistent with the location of the sdg-1 gene within a Cer9 retrotransposon that appears to have integrated only within the C. elegans genome, sequence conservation between the genomes of related species is only observed outside the region of the retrotransposon (see Author response image 1, screenshot from UCSC browser). There were no obvious defects detected in animals lacking sdg-1 (Fig. 7) or in animals lacking sdg-2 (data not shown). It is possible that further exploration of both mutants and mutant combinations lacking additional SID-1-dependent genes would reveal defects. We also plan to examine these mutants in sensitized genetic backgrounds where one or more members of the RNA silencing pathway have been compromised.

      Author response image 1.

      Clarification for Readability:

      To enhance readability and avoid misunderstandings, it is crucial to specify the model organism and its specific dsRNA pathways that are not conserved in vertebrates:

      We agree with the reviewer and thank the reviewer for the specific suggestions provided below. To take the spirit of the suggestion to heart we have instead changed the title of our paper to clearly signal that the entire study only uses C. elegans. We have titled the study ‘Intergenerational transport of double-stranded RNA in C. elegans can limit heritable epigenetic changes’

      • In the first sentence of the paragraph "Here, we dissect the intergenerational transport of extracellular dsRNA ...", the authors should specify "in the nematode C. elegans". Unlike vertebrates, which recognise dsRNA as a foreign threat, worms and other invertebrates pervasively use dsRNA for signalling. Additionally, worms, unlike vertebrates and insects, encode RNA-dependent RNA polymerases that generate dsRNA from ssRNA substrates, enabling amplification of small RNA production. Especially in dsRNA biology, specifying the model organism is essential to avoid confusion about potential effects in humans.

      We agree with most statements made by the reviewer, although whether dsRNA is exclusively recognized as a foreign threat by all vertebrates of all stages remains controversial. Our changed title now eliminates all ambiguity regarding the organism used in the study.

      • Similarly, the authors should specify "in C. elegans" in the sentence "Therefore, we propose that the import of extracellular dsRNA into the germline tunes intracellular pathways that cause heritable RNA silencing." This is important because C. elegans small RNA pathways differ significantly from those in other organisms, particularly in the PIWI-interacting RNA (piRNA) pathways, which depend on dsRNA in C. elegans but uses ssRNA in vertebrates. Specification is crucial to prevent misinterpretation by the reader. It is well understood that mechanisms of transgenerational inheritance that operate in nematodes or plants are not conserved in mammals.

      The piRNAs of C. elegans are single-stranded but are encoded by numerous independent genes throughout the genome. The molecules used for transgenerational inheritance of epigenetic changes that have been identified thus far are indeed different in different organisms. However, the regulatory principles required for transgenerational inheritance are general (Jose, eLife, 2024). Nevertheless, we have modified the title to clearly state that the entire study is using C. elegans.  

      • The first sentence of the discussion, "Our analyses suggest a model for ...", would also benefit from specifying "in C. elegans". The same applies to the figure captions. Clarification of the model organism should be added to the first sentence, especially in Figure 1.

      With the clarification of the organism used in the title, we expect that all readers will be able to unambiguously interpret our results and the contexts where they apply. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      RNAs can function across cell borders and animal generations as sources of epigenetic information for development and immunity. The specific mechanistic pathways how RNA travels between cells and progeny remains an open question. Here, Shugarts, et al. use molecular genetics, imaging, and genomics methods to dissect specific RNA transport and regulatory pathways in the C. elegans model system. Larvae ingesting double stranded RNA is noted to not cause continuous gene silencing throughout adulthood. Damage of neuronal cells expressing double stranded target RNA is observed to repress target gene expression in the germline. Exogenous supply of short or long double stranded RNA required different genes for entry into progeny. It was observed that the SID-1 double-stranded RNA transporter showed different expression over animal development. Removal of the sid-1 gene caused upregulation of two genes, the newly described sid-1-dependent gene sdg-1 and sdg-2. Both genes were observed to also be negatively regulated by other small RNA regulatory pathways. Strikingly, loss then gain of sid-1 through breeding still caused variability of sdg-1 expression for many, many generations. SDG-2 protein co-localizes with a Z-granule marker, an intracellular site for heritable RNA silencing machinery. Collectively, sdg-1 presents a model to study how extracellular RNAs can buffer gene expression in germ cells and other tissues.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting our findings and underscoring the striking nature of the discovery that mutating sid-1 using genome-editing resulted in a transgenerational change that could not be reversed by changing the sid-1 sequence back to wild-type.

      Strengths:

      (1) Very clever molecular genetic methods and genomic analyses, paired with thorough genetics, were employed to discover insights into RNA transport, sdg-1 and sdg-2 as sid-1-dependent genes, and sdg-1's molecular phenotype.

      (2) The manuscript is well cited, and figures reasonably designed.

      (3) The discovery of the sdg genes being responsive to the extracellular RNA cell import machinery provides a model to study how exogenous somatic RNA is used to regulate gene expression in progeny. The discovery of genes within retrotransposons stimulates tantalizing models how regulatory loops may actually permit the genetic survival of harmful elements.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive comments.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) As presented, the manuscript is incredibly broad, making it challenging to read and consider the data presented. This concern is exemplified in the model figure, that requires two diagrams to summarize the claims made by the manuscript.

      RNA interference (RNAi) by dsRNA is an organismal response where the delivery of dsRNA into the cytosol of some cell precedes the processing and ultimate silencing of the target gene within that cell. These two major steps are often not separately considered when explaining observations. Yet, the interpretation of every RNAi experiment is affected by both steps. To make the details that we have revealed in this work for both steps clearer, we presented the two models separated by scale - organismal vs. intracellular. We agree that this integrative manuscript appears very broad when the many different findings are each considered separately. The overall model revealed here forms the necessary foundation for the deep analysis of individual aspects in the future.

      (2) The large scope of the manuscript denies space to further probe some of the ideas proposed. The first part of the manuscript, particularly Figures 1 and 2, presents data that can be caused by multiple mechanisms, some of which the authors describe in the results but do not test further. Thus, portions of the results text come across as claims that are not supported by the data presented.

      We agree that one of the consequences of addressing the joint roles of transport and subsequent silencing during RNAi is that the scope of the manuscript appears large. We had suggested multiple interpretations for specific observations in keeping with the need for further work. To avoid any misunderstandings that our listing of possible interpretations be taken as claims by the reader, we have followed the instructions of the reviewer (see below) and moved some of the potential explanations we raised to the discussion section.

      (3) The manuscript focuses on the genetics of SDGs but not the proteins themselves. Few descriptions of the SDGs functions are provided nor is it clarified why only SDG-1 was pursued in imaging and genetic experiments. Additionally, the SDG-1 imaging experiments could use additional localization controls.

      We agree that more work on the SDG proteins will likely be informative, but are beyond the scope of this already expansive paper.  We began with the analysis of SDG-1 because it had the most support as a regulator of RNA silencing (Fig. 5f). Indeed, in other work (Lalit and Jose, bioRxiv, 2024), we find that AlphaFold 2 predicts the SDG-1 protein to be a regulator of RNA silencing that directly interacts with the dsRNA-editing enzyme ADR-2 and the endonuclease RDE-8. Furthermore, we expect that more sensitive analyses of the RNA-seq data are likely to reveal additional genes regulated by SID-1. Using multiplexed genome editing, we hope to generate mutant combinations lacking multiple sdg genes to reveal their function(s).

      We agree that given the recent discovery of many components of germ granules, our imaging data does not have sufficient resolution to discriminate between them. We have modified our statements and our model regarding the colocalization of SDG-1 with Z-granules to indicate that the overlapping enrichment of SDG-1 and ZNFX-1 in the perinuclear region is consistent with interactions with other nearby granule components.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Major

      (1) As presented, the manuscript is almost two manuscripts combined into one. This point is highlighted in Figure 7h, which basically presents two separate models. The key questions addressed in the manuscript starts at Figure 3. Figures 1 and 2 are interesting observations but require more experiments to define further. For example, as the Results text describes for Figure 1, "These differences in the entry of ingested dsRNA into cells and/or subsequent silencing could be driven by a variety of changes during development. These include changes in the uptake of dsRNA into the intestine, distribution of dsRNA to other tissues from the intestine, import of dsRNA into the germline, and availability of RNA silencing factors within the germline." Presenting these (reasonable) mechanistic ideas detracted from the heritable RNA epigenetic mechanism explored in the later portion of the manuscript. There are many ways to address this issue, one being moving Figures 1 and 2 to the Supplement to focus on SID-1 related pathways.

      Since this manuscript addresses the interaction between intercellular transport of dsRNA and heritable epigenetic changes, it was necessary to establish the possible route(s) that dsRNA could take to the germline before any inference could be made regarding heritable epigenetic changes. As suggested below (pt. 2), we have now moved the alternatives we enumerated as possible explanations for some experimental results (e.g., for the differences quoted here) to the discussion section.

      (2) The manuscript includes detailed potential interpretations in the Results, making them seem like claims. Here is an example:

      "Thus, one possibility suggested by these observations is that reduction of sdg-1 RNA via SID-1 alters the amount of SDG-1 protein, which could interact with components of germ granules to mediate RNA regulation within the germline of wild-type animals."

      This mechanism is a possibility, but placing these ideas in the citable results makes it seem like an overinterpretation of imaging data. This text and others should be in the Discussion, where speculation is encouraged. Results sections like this example and others should be moved to the discussion.

      We have rephrased motivating connections between experiments like the one quoted above and also moved such text to the discussion section wherever possible.

      (3) A paragraph describing the SDG proteins will be helpful. Homologs? Conserved protein domains? mRNA and/or protein expression pattern across worm, not just the germline? Conservation across Caenorhabditis sp? These descriptions may help establish context why SDG-1 localizes to Z-granules.

      We have now added information about the conservation of the sdg-1 gene in the manuscript. AlphaFold predicts domains with low confidence for the SDG-1 protein, consistent with the lack of conservation of this protein (AlphaFold requires multiple sequence alignments to predict confidently). In the adult animal, the SDG-1 protein was only detectable in the germline. Future work focused on SDG-1, SDG-2 and other SDG proteins will further examine possible expression in other tissues and functional domains if any. Unfortunately, in multiple attempts of single-molecule FISH experiments using probes against the sdg-1 open reading frame, we were unable to detect a specific signal above background (data not shown). Additional experiments are needed for the sensitive detection of sdg-1 expression outside the germline, if any.  

      (4) Based on the images shown, SDG-1 could be in other nearby granules, such as P granules or mutator foci. Additional imaging controls to rule out these granules/condensates will greatly strengthen the argument that SDG-1 protein localizes to Z-granules specifically.

      We have modified the final model to indicate that the perinuclear colocalization is with germ granules broadly and we agree that we do not have the resolution to claim that the observed overlap of SDG-1::mCherry with GFP::ZNFX-1 that we detect using Airyscan microscopy is specifically with Z granules. Our initial emphasis of Z-granule was based on the prior report of SDG-1 being co-immunoprecipitated with the Z-granule surface protein PID-2/ZSP-1. However, through other work predicting possible direct interactions using AlphaFold (Lalit and Jose, bioRxiv, 2024), we were unable to detect any direct interactions between PID-2 and SDG-1. Indeed, many additional granules have been recently reported (Chen et al., Nat. Commun., 2024; Huang et al., bioRxiv 2024), making it possible that SDG-1 has specific interactions with a component of one of the other granules (P, Z, M, S, E, or D) or adjacent P bodies.

      Minor

      (1) "This entry into the cytosol is distinct from and can follow the uptake of dsRNA into cells, which can rely on other receptors." Awkard sentence. Please revise.

      We have now revised this sentence to read “This entry into the cytosol is distinct from the uptake of dsRNA into cells, which can rely on other receptors”

      (2) Presumably, the dsRNA percent of the in vitro transcribed RNA is different than the 50 bp oligos that can be reliably annealed by heating and cooling. Other RNA secondary structure possibilities warrant further discussion.

      We agree that in vitro transcribed RNA could include a variety of undefined secondary structures in addition to dsRNAs of mixed length. Such structures could recruit or titrate away RNA-binding proteins in addition to the dsRNA structures engaging the canonical RNAi pathway, resulting in mixed mechanisms of silencing. Future work identifying such structures and exploring their impact on the efficacy of RNAi could be informative. We have now added these considerations to the discussion and thank the reviewer for highlighting these possibilities.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this study, the authors engineer the endogenous left boundary of the Drosophila eve TAD, replacing the endogenous Nhomie boundary by either a neutral DNA, a wildtype Nhomie boundary, an inverted Nhomie boundary, or a second copy of the Homie boundary. They perform Micro-C on young embryos and conclude that endogenous Nhomie and Homie boundaries flanking eve pair with head-to-tail directionality to form a chromosomal stem loop. Abrogating the Nhomie boundary leads to ectopic activation of genes in the former neighboring TAD by eve embryonic stripe enhancers. Replacing Nhomie by an inverted version or by Homie (which pairs with itself head-to-head) transformed the stem loop into a circle loop. An important finding was that stem and circle loops differentially impact endogenous gene regulation both within the eve TAD and in the TADs bracketing eve. Intriguingly, an eve TAD with a circle loop configuration leads to ectopic activation of flanking genes by eve enhancers - indicating compromised regulatory boundary activity despite the presence of an eve TAD with intact left and right boundaries.

      Strengths:

      Overall, the results obtained are of high-quality and are meticulously discussed. This work advances our fundamental understanding of how 3D genome topologies affect enhancer-promoter communication.

      Weaknesses:

      Though convincingly demonstrated at eve, the generalizability of TAD formation by directional boundary pairing remains unclear, though the authors propose this mechanism could underly the formation of all TADs in Drosophila and possibly even in mammals. Strong and ample evidence has been obtained to date that cohesin-mediated chromosomal loop extrusion explains the formation of a large fraction of TADs in mammals. 

      (1.1) The difficultly with most all of the studies on mammal TADs, cohesin and CTCF roadblocks is that the sequencing depth is not sufficient, and large bin sizes (>1 kb) are needed to visualize chromosome architecture.  The resulting contact profiles show TAD neighborhoods, not actual TADs.

      The problem with these studies is illustrated by comparing the contact profiles of mammalian MicroC data sets at different bin sizes in Author response image 1.  In this figure, the darkness of the “pixels” in panels E, F, G and H was enhanced by reducing brightness in photoshop.

      Author response image 1.

      Mammalian MicroC profiles different bun sizes

      Panels A and C show “TADs” using bin sizes typical of most mammalian studies (see Krietenstein et al. (2023) (Krietenstein et al. 2020)).  At this level of resolution, TADs, the “trees” that are the building blocks of chromosomes, are not visible.  Instead, what is seen are TAD neighborhoods or “forests”.  Each neighborhood consists of several dozen individual TADs.  The large bins in these panels also artificially accentuated TAD:TAD interactions, generating a series of “stripes” and “dots” that correspond to TADs bumping into each other and sequences getting crosslinked.  For example, in panel A there is prominent stripe on the edge of a “TAD” (blue arrow).  In panel C, this stripe resolves into a series of dots arranged as parallel, but interrupted “stripes” (green and blue arrows).  At the next level of resolution, it can be seen that the stripe marked by the blue arrow and magenta asterisk is generated by contacts between the left boundary of the TAD indicated by the magenta bar with sequences in a TAD (blue bar) ~180 kb way.  While dots and stripes are prominent features in contact profiles visualized with larger bin sizes (A and C), the actual TADs that are observed with a bin size of 200 bp (examples are underlined by black bars in panel G) are not bordered by stripes, nor are they topped by obvious dots.  The one possible exception is the dot that appears at the top of the volcano triangle underlined with magenta.

      The chromosome 1 DNA segment from the MicroC data of Hseih et al. (2023) (Hsieh et al. 2020) shows a putative volcano triangle with a plume (indicated by a V in Author response image 1 panels D, F and H).  Sequences in the V TAD don’t crosslink with their immediate neighbors, and this gives a “plume” above the volcano triangle, as indicate by the light blue asterisk in panels D, F and H.  Interestingly the V TAD does contact two distant TADs, U on the left and W on the right. The U TAD is ~550 kb from V, and the region of contact is indicated by the black arrow.  The W TAD is ~585 kb from V, and the region of contact is indicated by the magenta arrow.  While the plume still seems to be visible with a bin size of 400 bp (light blue asterisk), it is hard to discern when the bin size is 200 bp, as there are not enough reads.

      The evidence demonstrating that cohesin is required for TAD formation/maintenance is based on low resolution Hi-C data, and the effects that are observed are on TAD neighborhoods (forests) and not TADs (trees).  In fact, there is published evidence that cohesin is not required in mammals for TAD formation/maintenance.  In an experiment from Goel et al. 2023 the authors depleted the cohesin component Rad21 and then visualized the effects on TAD organization using the high resolution region capture MicroC (RCMC) protocol.  The MicroC contact map in this figure visualizes a ~250 kb DNA segment around the Ppm1pg locus at 250 bp resolution.  On the right side of the diagonal is the untreated control, while the left side shows the MicroC profile of the same region after Rad21 depletion.  The authors indicated that there was a 97% depletion of Rad21 in their experiment.  However, as is evident from a comparison of the experimental and control, loss of Rad21 has no apparent effect on the TAD organization of this mammalian DNA segment.

      Several other features are worth noting.  First, unlike the MicroC experiments shown in Author response image 1, there are dots at the apex of the TADs in this chromosomal segment.  In the MicroC protocol, fixed chromatin is digested to mononucleosomes by extensive MNase digestion.  The resulting DNA fragments are then ligated, and dinucleosome-length fragments are isolated and sequenced. 

      DNA sequences that are nucleosome free in chromatin (which would be promoters, enhancers, silencers and boundary elements) are typically digested to oligonucleotides in this procedure and won’t be recovered. This means that the dots shown here must correspond to mononucleosome-length elements that are MNase resistant.  This is also true for the dots in the MicroC contact profiles of the Drosophila Abd-B regulatory domain (see Fig. 2B in the paper).  Second, the TADs are connected to each other by 45o stripes (see blue and green arrowheads).  While it is not clear from this experiment whether the stipes are generated by an active mechanism (enzyme) or by some “passive” mechanism (e.g., sliding), the stripes in this chromosomal segment are not generated by cohesin, as they are unperturbed by Rad21 depletion.  Third, there are no volcano triangles with plumes in this chromosomal DNA segment.  Instead, the contact patterns (purple and green asterisks) between neighboring TADs closely resemble those seen for the Abd-B regulatory domains (compare Goel et al. 2023 with Fig. 2B in the paper).  This similarity suggests that the TADs in and around Ppm1g may be circle-loops, not stem-loops.  As volcano triangles with plumes also seem to be rare in the MicroC data sets of Krietenstein et al. (Krietenstein et al. 2020) and Hesih et al. (Hsieh et al. 2020) (with the caveat that these data sets are low resolution: see Author response image 1), it is possible that much of the mammalian genome is assembled into circle-loop TADs, a topology that can’t be generated by the cohesin loop extrusion (bolo tie clip) /CTCF roadblock model.

      While Rad21 depletion has no apparent effect on TADs, it does appear to impact TAD neighborhoods.  This is in a supplemental figure in Goel et al. (Goel et al. 2023).  In this figure, TADs in the Ppm1g region of chromosome 5 are visualized with bin sizes of 5 kb and 1 kb.  A 1.2 Mb DNA segment is shown for the 5 kb bin size, while an 800 kb DNA segment is shown for the 1 kb bin size.  As can be seen from comparing the MicroC profiles in Author response image 2 with that in Goel et al. 2023, individual TADs are not visible.  Instead, the individual TADs are binned into large TAD “neighborhoods” that consist of several dozen or more TADs.

      Unlike the individual TADs shown in Goel et al. 2023, the TAD neighborhoods in Author response image 2 are sensitive to Rad21 depletion.  The effects of Rad21 depletion can be seen by comparing the relative pixel density inside the blue lines before (above the diagonal) and after (below the diagonal) auxin-induced Rad21 degradation.  The reduction in pixel density is greatest for more distant TAD:TAD contacts (farthest from the diagonal).  By contrast, the TADs themselves are unaffected (Goel et al. 2023), as are contacts between individual TADs and their immediate neighbors.  In addition, contacts between partially overlapping TAD neighborhoods are also lost.  At this point it isn’t clear why contacts between distant TADs in the same neighborhood are lost when Rad21 is depleted; however, a plausible speculation is that it is related to the functioning of cohesin in holding newly replicated DNAs together until mitosis and whatever other role it might have in chromosome condensation.

      Author response image 2.

      Ppm1g full locus chr5

      Moreover, given the unique specificity with which Nhomie and Homie are known to pair (and exhibit "homing" activity), it is conceivable that formation of the eve TAD by boundary pairing represents a phenomenon observed at exceptional loci rather than a universal rule of TAD formation. Indeed, characteristic Micro-C features of the eve TAD are only observed at a restricted number of loci in the fly genome…..

      (1.2) The available evidence does not support the claim that nhomie and homie are “exceptional.”  To begin with, nhomie and homie rely on precisely the same set of factors that have been implicated in the functioning of other boundaries in the fly genome.  For example, homie requires (among other factors) the generic boundary protein Su(Hw) for insulation and long-distance interactions (Fujioka et al. 2024).  (This is also true of nhomie: unpublished data.)  The Su(Hw) protein (like other fly polydactyl zinc finger proteins) can engage in distant interactions.  This was first shown by Sigrist and Pirrotta (Sigrist and Pirrotta 1997), who found that the su(Hw) element from the gypsy transposon can mediate long-distance regulatory interactions (PRE dependent silencing) between transgenes inserted at different sites on homologous chromosomes (trans interactions) and at sites on different chromosomes.

      The ability to mediate long-distance interactions is not unique to the su(Hw) element, or homie and nhomie.  Muller et al. (Muller et al. 1999) found that the Mcp boundary from the Drosophila BX-C is also able to engage in long-distance regulatory interactions—both PRE-dependent silencing of mini-white and enhancer activation of mini-white and yellow.  The functioning of the Mcp boundary depends upon two other generic insulator proteins, Pita and the fly CTCF homolog (Kyrchanova et al. 2017).  Like Su(Hw) both are polydactyl zinc finger proteins, and they resemble the mammalian CTCF protein in that their N-terminal domain mediates multimerization (Bonchuk et al. 2020; Zolotarev et al. 2016).  Figure 6 from Muller et el. 1999 shows PRE-dependent “pairing sensitive silencing” interactions between transgenes carrying a mini-white reporter, the Mcp and scs’ (Beaf dependent)(Hart et al. 1997) boundary elements, and a PRE closely linked to Mcp.  In this experiment flies homozygous for different transgene inserts were mated and the eye color was examined in their transheterozygous progeny.  As indicated in the figure, the strongest trans-silencing interactions were observed for inserts on the same chromosomal arm; however, transgenes inserted on the left arm of chromosome 3 can interact across the centromere with transgenes inserted on the right arm of chromosome 3. 

      Figure 5C (left) from Muller et el. 1999 shows a trans-silencing interaction between w#11.102 at 84D and w#11.16 approximately 5.8 Mb away, at 87D.  Figure 5C (right) shows a trans-silencing interaction across the centromere between w#14.29 on the left arm of chromosome 3 at 78F and w#11.102 on the right arm of chromosome 3 at 84D. The eye color phenotype of mini-white-containing transgenes is usually additive: homozygyous inserts have twice as dark eye color as the corresponding hemizygous inserts.  Likewise, in flies trans-_heterozygous for _mini-white transgenes inserted at different sites, the eye color is equivalent to the sum of the two transgenes.  This is not true when mini-white transgenes are silenced by PREs.  In the combination shown in panel A, the t_rans-_heterozygous fly has a lighter eye color than either of the parents.  In the combination in panel B, the _trans-_heterozygous fly is slightly lighter than either parent.

      As evident from the diagram in Figure 6 from Muller et el. 1999, all of the transgenes inserted on the 3rd chromosome that were tested were able to participate in long distance (>Mbs) regulatory interactions.  On the other hand, not all possible pairwise interactions are observed.  This would suggest that potential interactions depend upon the large scale (Mb) 3D folding of the 3rd chromosome.

      When the scs boundary (Zw5 dependent) (Gaszner et al. 1999) was added to the transgene to give sMws’, it further enhanced the ability of distant transgenes to find each other and pair.  All eight of the sMws’ inserts that were tested were able to interact with at least one other sMws’ insert on a different chromosome and silence mini-white.  Vazquez et al. () subsequently tagged the sMws’ transgene with LacO sequences (ps0Mws’) and visualized pairing interactions in imaginal discs.  Trans-heterozygous combinations on the same chromosome were found paired in 94-99% of the disc nuclei, while a trans-heterozygous combination on different chromosomes was found paired in 96% of the nuclei (Table 3 from Vazquez et al. 2006).  Vazquez et al. also examined a combination of four transgenes inserted on the same chromosome (two at the same insertion site, and two at different insertion sites).  In this case, all four transgenes were clustered together in 94% of the nuclei (Table 3 from Vazquez et al. 2006).  Their studies also suggest that the distant transgenes remain paired for at least several hours.  A similar experiment was done by Li et al. (Li et al. 2011), except that the transgene contained only a single boundary, Mcp or Fab-7.  While pairing was still observed in trans-heterozygotes, the frequency was reduced without scs and scs’.

      It is worth pointing out that there is no plausible mechanism in which cohesin could extrude a loop through hundreds of intervening TADs, across the centromere (ff#13.101_ßà_w#11.102: Figure 6 from Muller et el. 1999; w#14.29_ßà_w#11.02: Figure 6 from Muller et el. 1999 and 5) and come to a halt when it “encounters” Mcp containing transgenes on different homologs.  The same is true for Mcp-dependent pairing interactions in cis (Fig. 7 in Muller et al. (Muller et al. 1999)) or Mcp-dependent pairing interactions between transgenes inserted on different chromosomes (Fig. 8 in Muller et al. (Muller et al. 1999); Line 8 in Table 3 from Vazquez et al. 2006). 

      These are not the only boundaries that can engage in long-distance pairing.  Mohana et al. (Mohana et al. 2023) identified nearly 60 meta-loops, many of which appear to be formed by the pairing of TAD boundary elements.  Two examples (at 200 bp resolution from 12-16 hr embryos) are shown in Author response image 3.

      Author response image 3.

      Metaloops on the 2nd and 3rd chromosomes: circle-loops and multiple stem-loops

      One of these meta-loops (panel A) is generated by the pairing of two TAD boundaries on the 2nd chromosome.  The first boundary, blue, (indicated by blue arrow) is located at ~2,006, 500 bp between a small TAD containing the Nplp4 and CG15353 genes and a larger TAD containing 3 genes, CG33543, Obp22a and Npc2aNplp4 encodes a neuropeptide.  The functions of CG15354 and CG33543 are unknown.  Obp22a encodes an odorant binding protein, while Npc2a encodes the Niemann-Pick type C-2a protein which is involved sterol homeostasis.  The other boundary (purple: indicated by purple arrow) is located between two TADs 2.8 Mb away at 4,794,250 bp.  The upstream TAD contains the fipi gene (CG15630) which has neuronal functions in male courtship, while the downstream TAD contains CG3294, which is thought to be a spliceosome component, and schlaff (slf) which encodes a chitin binding protein.  As illustrated in the accompanying diagram, the blue boundary pairs with the purple boundary in a head-to-head orientation, generating a ~2.8 Mb loop with a circle-loop topology.  As a result of this pairing, the multi-gene (CG33543, Obp22a and Npc2a) TAD upstream of the blue boundary interacts with the CG15630 TAD upstream of the purple boundary.  Conversely the small Nplp4:CG15353 TAD downstream of the blue boundary interacts with the CG3294:slf TAD downstream of the purple boundary.  Even if one imagined that the cohesin bolo tie clip was somehow able to extrude 2.8 Mb of chromatin and then know to stop when it encountered the blue and purple boundaries, it would’ve generated a stemloop, not a circle-loop.

      The second meta-loop (panel B) is more complicated as it is generated by pairing interactions between four boundary elements.  The blue boundary (blue arrow) located ~4,801,800 bp (3L) separates a large TAD containing the RhoGEF64C gene from a small TAD containing CG7509, which encodes a predicted subunit of an extracellular carboxypeptidase.  As can be seen in the MicroC contact profile and the accompanying diagram, the blue boundary pairs with the purple boundary (purple arrow) which is located at ~7,013, 500 (3L) just upstream of the 2nd internal promoter (indicated by black arrowhead) of the Mp (Multiplexin) gene.  This pairing interaction is head-to-tail and generates a large stem-loop that spans ~2.2 Mb.  The stem-loop brings sequences upstream of the blue boundary and downstream of the purple boundary into contact (the strings below a bolo tie clip), just as was observed in the boundary bypass experiments of Muravyova et al. (Muravyova et al. 2001) and Kyrchanova et al. (Kyrchanova et al. 2008).  The physical interactions result in a box of contacts (right top) between sequences in the large RhoGEF64C TAD and sequences in a large TAD that contains an internal Mp promoter.  The second pairing interaction is between the brown boundary (brown arrow) and the green boundary (green arrow).  The brown boundary is located at ~4 805,600 bp (3L) and separates the TAD containing CG7590 from a large TAD containing CG1808 (predicted to encode an oxidoreductase) and the Dhc64C (Dynein heavy chain 64C) gene.  The green boundary is located at ~6,995,500 bp (3L), and it separates a TAD containing CG32388 and the biniou (bin) transcription factor from a TAD that contains the most distal promoter of the Mp (Multiplexin) gene (blue arrowhead).  As indicated in the diagram, the brown and green boundaries pair with each other head-to-tail, and this generates a small internal loop (and the final configuration would resemble a bolo tie with two tie clips).  This small internal loop brings the CG7590 TAD into contact with the TAD that extends from the distal Mp promoter to the 2nd internal Mp promoter.  The resulting contact profile is a rectangular box with diagonal endpoints corresponding to the paired blue:purple and brown:green boundaries.  The pairing of the brown:green boundaries also brings the TADs immediately downstream of the brown boundary and upstream of the green boundary into contact with each other, and this gives a rectangular box of interactions between the Dhc64C TAD, and sequences in the bin/CG3238 TAD.  This box is located on the lower left side of the contact map.

      Since the bin and Mp meta-loops in Author response image 3B are stem-loops, they could have been generated by “sequential” cohesin loop extrusion events.  Besides the fact that cohesin extrusion of 2 Mb of chromatin and breaking through multiple intervening TAD boundaries challenges the imagination, there is no mechanism in the cohesion loop extrusion/CTCF roadblock model to explain why cohesion complex 1 would come to a halt at the purple boundary on one side and the blue boundary on the other, while cohesin complex 2 would instead stop when it hits the brown and green boundaries.  This highlights another problem with the cohesin loop extrusion/CTCF roadblock model, namely that the roadblocks are functionally autonomous: they have an intrinsic ability to block cohesin that is entirely independent of the intrinsic ability of other roadblocks in the neighborhood.  As a result, there is no mechanism for generating specificity in loop formation.  By contrast, boundary pairing interactions are by definition non-autonomous and depend on the ability of individual boundaries to pair with other boundaries: specificity is built into the model. The mechanism for pairing, and accordingly the basis for partner preferences/specificity, are reasonably well understood.  Probably the most common mechanism in flies is based on shared binding sites for architectural proteins that can form dimers or multimers (Bonchuk et al. 2021; Fedotova et al. 2017).  Flies have a large family of polydactyl zinc finger DNA binding proteins, and as noted above, many of these form dimers or multimers and also function as TAD boundary proteins.  This pairing principle was first discovered by Kyrchanova et al. (Kyrchanova et al. 2008).  This paper also showed that orientation-dependent pairing interactions is a common feature of endogenous fly boundaries.  Another mechanism for pairing is specific protein:protein interactions between different DNA binding factors (Blanton et al. 2003).  Yet a third mechanism would be proteins that bridge different DNA binding proteins together.  The boundaries that use these different mechanisms (BX-C boundaries, scs, scs’) depend upon the same sorts of proteins that are used by homie and nhomie.  Likewise, these same set of factors reappear in one combination or another in most other TAD boundaries.  As for the orientation of pairing interactions, this is most likely determined by the order of binding sites for chromosome architectural proteins in the partner boundaries.

      …and many TADs lack focal 3D interactions between their boundaries.

      (1.3) The idea that flies differ from mammals in that they “lack” focal 3D interactions is simply mistaken.  One of the problems with drawing this distinction is that most all of the “focal 3D interactions” seen mammalian Hi-C experiments are a consequence of binning large DNA segments in low resolution restriction enzyme-dependent experiments.  This is even true in the two “high” resolution MicroC experiments that have been published (Hsieh et al. 2020; Krietenstein et al. 2020).  As illustrated above in Author response image 1, most of the “focal 3D interactions” (the dots at the apex of TAD triangles) seen with large bin sizes (1 kb and greater) disappear when the bin size is 200 bp and TADs rather than TAD neighborhoods are being visualized.

      As described in point #1.1, in the MicroC protocol, fixed chromatin is first digested to mononucloesomes by extensive MNase digestion, processed/biotinylated, and ligated to give dinucleosome-length fragments, which are then sequenced.  Regions of chromatin that are nucleosome free (promoters, enhancers, silencers, boundary elements) will typically be reduced to oligonucleotides in this procedure and will not be recovered when dinucleosome-length fragments are sequenced.  The loss of sequences from typical paired boundary elements is illustrated by the lar meta-loop shown in Author response image 4 (at 200 bp resolution).  Panels A and B show the contact profiles generated when the blue boundary (which separates two TADs that span  the Lar (Leukocyteantigen-related-like) transcription unit interacts with the purple boundary (which separates two TADs in a gene poor region ~620 kb away).  The blue and purple boundaries pair with each other head-to-head, and this pairing orientation generates yet another circle-loop.  In the circle-loop topology, sequences in the TADs upstream of both boundaries come into contact with each other, and this gives the small dark rectangular box to the upper left of the paired boundaries (Author response image 4A).  (Note that this small box corresponds to the two small TADs upstream of the blue and purple boundaries, respectively. See panel B.)  Sequences in the TADs downstream of the two boundaries also come into contact with each other, and this gives the large box to the lower right of the paired boundaries.  While this meta-loop is clearly generated by pairing interactions between the blue and purple boundaries, the interacting sequences are degraded in the MicroC protocol, and sequences corresponding to the blue and purple boundaries aren’t recovered.  This can be seen in panel B (red arrow and red arrowheads).  When a different Hi-C procedure is used (dHS-C) that captures nucleosome-free regions of chromatin that are physically linked to each other (Author response image 4C & D), the sequences in the interacting blue and purple boundaries are recovered and generate a prominent “dot” at their physical intersection (blue arrow in panel D).

      Author response image 4.

      Lar metaloop. Panels A & bB: MicroC. Panels C & D: dHS-C

      While sequences corresponding to the blue and purple boundaries are lost in the MicroC procedure, there is at least one class of elements that engage in physical pairing interactions whose sequences are (comparatively) resistant to MNase digestion.  This class of elements includes many PREs ((Kyrchanova et al. 2018); unpublished data), the boundary bypass elements in the Abd-B region of BX-C (Kyrchanova et al. 2023; Kyrchanova et al. 2019a; Kyrchanova et al. 2019b; Postika et al. 2018), and “tethering” elements (Batut et al. 2022; Li et al. 2023).  In all of the cases tested, these elements are bound in nuclear extracts by a large (>1000 kD) GAGA factor-containing multiprotein complex called LBC.  LBC also binds to the hsp70 and eve promoters (unpublished data).  Indirect end-labeling experiments (Galloni et al. 1993; Samal et al. 1981; Udvardy and Schedl 1984) indicate that the LBC protects a ~120-180 bp DNA segment from MNase digestion.  It is likely that this is the reason why LBC-bound sequences can be recovered in MicroC experiments as dots when they are physically linked to each other.  One such example (based on the ChIP signatures of the paired elements) is indicated by the green arrow in panel B and D of Author response image 4.  Note that there are no dots corresponding to these two LBC elements within either of the TADs immediately downstream of the blue and purple boundaries.  Instead the sequences corresponding to the two LBC elements are only recovered when the two elements pair with each other over a distance of ~620 kb.  The fact that these two elements pair with each other is consistent with other findings which indicate that, like classical boundaries, LBC elements exhibit partner preferences.  In fact, LBC elements can sometimes function as TAD boundaries.  For example, the Fab-7 boundary has two LBC elements, and full Fab-7 boundary function can be reconstituted with just these two elements (Kyrchanova et al. 2018).

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      "Chromatin Structure II: Stem-loops and circle-loops" by Ke*, Fujioka*, Schedl, and Jaynes reports a set of experiments and subsequent analyses focusing on the role of Drosophila boundary elements in shaping 3D genome structure and regulating gene expression. The authors primarily focus on the region of the fly genome containing the even skipped (eve) gene; eve is expressed in a canonical spatial pattern in fly embryos and its locus is flanked by the well-characterized neighbor of homie (nhomie) and homie boundary elements. The main focus of investigation is the orientation dependence of these boundary elements, which had been observed previously using reporter assays. In this study, the authors use Crispr/Cas9 editing followed by recombination-mediated cassette exchange to create a series of recombinant fly lines in which the nhomie boundary element is either replaced with exongenous sequence from phage 𝝀, an inversion of nhomie, or a copy of homie that has the same orientation as the endogenous homie sequence. The nhomie sequence is also regenerated in its native orientation to control for effects introduced by the transgenesis process.

      The authors then perform high-resolution Micro-C to analyze 3D structure and couple this with fluorescent and colorimetric RNA in situ hybridization experiments to measure the expression of eve and nearby genes during different stages of fly development. The major findings of these experiments are that total loss of boundary sequence (replacement with 𝝀 DNA) results in major 3D structure changes and the most prominent observed gene changes, while inversion of the nhomie boundary or replacement with homie resulted in more modest effects in terms of 3D structure and gene expression changes and a distinct pattern of gene expression change from the 𝝀 DNA replacement. As the samples in which the nhomie boundary is inverted or replaced with homie have similar Micro-C profiles at the eve locus and show similar patterns of a spurious gene activation relative to the control, the observed effects appear to be driven by the relative orientation of the nhomie and homie boundary elements to one another.

      Collectively, the findings reported in the manuscript are of broad interest to the 3D genome field. Although extensive work has gone into characterizing the patterns of 3D genome organization in a whole host of species, the underlying mechanisms that structure genomes and their functional consequences are still poorly understood. The perhaps best understood system, mechanistically, is the coordinated action of CTCF with the cohesin complex, which in vertebrates appears to shape 3D contact maps through a loop extrusion-pausing mechanism that relies on orientation-dependent sequence elements found at the boundaries of interacting chromatin loops.

      (2.1) The notion that mammalian genome is shaped in 3D by the coordinate action of cohesin and CTCF has achieved the status of dogma in the field of chromosome structure in vertebrates.  However, as we have pointed out in #1.1, the evidence supporting this dogma is far from convincing.  To begin with, it is based on low resolution Hi-C experiments that rely on large bin sizes to visualize so-called “TADs.”  In fact, the notion that cohesin/CTCF are responsible on their own for shaping the mammalian 3D genome appears to be a result of mistaking a series of forests for the actual trees that populate each of the forests.

      As illustrated in Author response image 1 above, the “TADs” that are visualized in these low resolution data sets are not TADs at all, but rather TAD neighborhoods consisting of several dozen or more individual TADs.  Moreover, the “interesting” features that are evident at low resolution (>1 kb)—the dots and stripes—largely disappear at resolutions appropriate for visualizing individual TADs (~200 bp).

      In Goel et al. 2023, we presented data from one of the key experiments in Goel et al. (Goel et al. 2023).  In this experiment,  the authors used RCMC to generate high resolution (~250 bp) MicroC contact maps before and after Rad21 depletion.  Contrary to dogma, Rad21 depletion has absolutely no effect on TADs in a ~250 kb DNA segment—and these TADs look very much like the TADs we observe in the Drosophila genome, in particular in the Abd-B region of BX-C that is thought to be assembled into a series of circle-loops (see Fig. 2B).

      While Goel et al. (Goel et al. 2023) observed no effect of Rad21 depletion on TADs, they found that loss of Rad21 disturbs long-distance (but not short-distance) contacts in large TAD neighborhoods when their RCMC data set is visualized using bin sizes of 5 kb and I kb.  This is shown in Author response image 2.  The significance of this finding is, however, uncertain.  It could mean that the 3D organization of large TAD neighborhoods have a special requirement for cohesin activity.  On the other hand, since cohesin functions to hold sister chromosomes together after replication until they separate during mitosis (and might also participate in mitotic condensation), it is also possible that the loss of long-range contacts in large TAD neighborhoods when Rad21 is depleted is simply a reflection of this particular activity.  Further studies will be required to address these possibilities.

      As for CTCF: a careful inspection of the ChIP data in Goel et al. 2023 indicates that CTCF is not found at each and every TAD boundary.  In fact, the notion that CTCF is the be-all and end-all of TAD boundaries in mammals is truly hard to fathom.  For one, the demands for specificity in TAD formation (and in regulatory interactions) are likely much greater than those in flies, and specificity can’t be generated by a single DNA binding protein.  For another, several dozen chromosomal architectural proteins have already been identified in flies.  This means that (unlike what is thought to be true in mammals) it is possible to use a combinatorial mechanism to generate specificity in, for example, the long distance interactions in RFig 6 and 7.  As noted in #2.1 above, many of the known chromosomal architectural proteins in flies are polydactyl zinc finger proteins (just like CTCF).  There are some 200 different polydactyl zinc finger proteins in flies, and the function of only a hand full of these is known at present.  However, it seems likely that a reasonable fraction of this class of DNA binding proteins will ultimately turn out to have an architectural function of some type (Bonchuk et al. 2021; Fedotova et al. 2017).  The number of different polydactyl zinc finger protein genes in mammals is nearly 3 times that of flies.  It is really possible that of these, only CTCF is involved in shaping the 3D structure of the mammalian genome?

      Despite having a CTCF paralog and cohesin, the Drosophila genome does not appear to be structure by loop extrusion-pausing. The identification of orientation-dependent elements with pronounced structural effects on genome folding thus may shed light on alternative mechanisms used to regulated genome structure, which in turn may yield insights into the significance of particular folding patterns.

      (2.2) Here we would like to draw the reviewer’s and reader’s attention to Author response image 3, which shows that orientation-dependent pairing interactions have a significant impact on physical interactions between different sequences.  We would also refer the reader to two other publications.  One of these is Kyrchanova et al. (Kyrchanova et al. 2008), which was the first to demonstrate that orientation of pairing interactions matters.  The second is Fujioka et al. (Fujioka et al. 2016), which describes experiments indicating that nhomie and homie pair with each other head-to-tail and with themselves head-to-head.

      On the whole, this study is comprehensive and represents a useful contribution to the 3D genome field. The transgenic lines and Micro-C datasets generated in the course of the work will be valuable resources for the research community. Moreover, the manuscript, while dense in places, is generally clearly written and comprehensive in its description of the work. However, I have a number of comments and critiques of the manuscript, mainly centering on the framing of the experiments and presentation of the Micro-C results and on manner in which the data are analyzed and reported. They are as follows:

      Major Points:

      (1) The authors motivate much of the introduction and results with hypothetical "stem loop" and "circle loop" models of chromosome confirmation, which they argue are reflected in the Micro-C data and help to explain the observed ISH patterns. While such structures may possibly form, the support for these specific models vs. the many alternatives is not in any way justified. For instance, no consideration is given to important biophysical properties such as persistence length, packing/scaling, and conformational entropy. As the biophysical properties of chromatin are a very trafficked topic both in terms of experimentation and computational modeling and generally considered in the analysis of chromosome conformation data, the study would be strengthened by acknowledgement of this body of work and more direct integration of its findings.

      (2.3) The reviewer is not correct in claiming that “stem-loops” and “circle-loops” are “hypothetical.”  There is ample evidence that both types of loops are present in eukaryotic genomes, and that loop conformation has significant readouts in terms of not only the physical properties of TADs but also their functional properties.  Here we would draw the reviewer’s attention to Author response image 3 and Author response image 4 for examples of loops formed by the orientation-dependent pairing of yet other TAD boundary elements.  As evident from the MicroC data in these figures, circle-loops and stem-loops have readily distinguishable contact patterns.  The experiments in Fujioka et al. (Fujioka et al. 2016) demonstrate that homie and nhomie pair with each other head-to-tail, while they pair with themselves head-to-head.  The accompany paper (Bing et al. 2024) also provides evidence that loop topology is reflected both in the pattern of activation of reporters and in the MicroC contact profiles.  We would also mention again Kyrchanova et al. (Kyrchanova et al. 2008), who were the first to report orientation-dependent pairing of endogenous fly boundaries.

      At this juncture it would premature to try to incorporate computational modeling of chromosome conformation in our studies.  The reason is that the experimental foundations that would be essential for building accurate models are lacking.  As should be evident from RFigs. 1-3 above, studies on mammalian chromosomes are simply not of high enough resolution to draw firm conclusions about chromosome conformation: in most studies only the forests are visible.  While the situation is better in flies, there are still too many unknown.  As just one example, it would be important to know the orientation of the boundary pairing interactions that generate each TAD.  While it is possible to infer loop topology from how TADs interact with their neighbors (a plume versus clouds), a conclusive identification of stem- and circle-loops will require a method to unambiguously determine whether a TAD boundary pairs with its neighbor head-to-head or headto-tail.

      (2) Similar to Point 1, while there is a fair amount of discussion of how the observed results are or are not consistent with loop extrusion, there is no discussion of the biophysical forces that are thought to underly compartmentalization such as block-polymer co-segregation and their potential influence. I found this absence surprising, as it is generally accepted that A/B compartmentalization essentially can explain the contact maps observed in Drosophila and other non-vertebrate eukaryotes (Rowley, ..., Corces 2017; PMID 28826674). The manuscript would be strengthened by consideration of this phenomenon.

      (2.4) Compartments in mammals have typically been identified and characterized using lowresolution data sets, and these studies have relied on visualizing compartments using quite large bin sizes (>>1 kb).  Our experiments have nothing to do with the large-scale compartments seen in these Hi-C experiments.  Instead, we are studying the properties of individual TADs: how TADs are formed, the relationship between TAD topology and boundary:boundary pairing, and the impact of TAD topology on interactions between TADs in the immediate neighborhood.  There is no evidence to date that these large compartments or “block polymer co-segregation” have a) any impact on the properties of individual boundary elements, b) have a role in determining which boundary elements actually come together to form a given TAD, c) impact the orientation of the interactions between boundaries that generate the TAD or d) determine how TADs tend to interact with their immediate neighbors.  

      In more recent publications (c.f., Harris et al. 2023) compartments have shrunk in size and instead of being units of several hundred kb, the median length of the “compartmental” unit in mammalian cells is about12 kb. This is not too much different from the size of fly TADs.  However, the available evidence does not support the idea that block polymer co-segregation/co-repulsion drive the TAD:TAD interactions seen in MicroC experiments.  For example, according to this “micro-compartment” model, the specific patterns of interaction between TADs in the CG3294 meta-loop in Author response image 3 would be driven by block polymer co-segregation and co-repulsion. In this model, the TAD upstream of the blue boundary (which contains CG33543, the odorant binding protein gene Obp22a and the Npc2a gene which encodes a protein involved in sterol homeostasis) would share the same chromatin state/biophysical properties as the TAD upstream of the purple boundary, which has the fipi gene. While it is true that CG33543, Obp22a and also the fipi gene are not expressed in embryos, Npc2a is expressed at high levels during embryogenesis, yet it is part of the TAD that interacts with the fipi TAD.  The TAD downstream of the blue boundary contains CG15353 and Nplp4 and it interacts with the TAD downstream of the purple boundary which contains CG3294 and slfCG15353 and Nplp4 are not expressed in the embryo and as such should share a compartment with a TAD that is also silent. However, slf is expressed at a high level in 1216 hr embryos, while CG3294 is expressed at a low level.  In neither case would one conclude that the TADs upstream and downstream of the blue and purple boundaries, respectively, interact because of shared chromatin/biophysical states that drive block polymer co-segregation corepulsion. 

      One might also consider several gedanken experiments involving the long-range interactions that generate the CG3294 meta-loop in Author response image 3.    According to the micro-compartment model the patchwork pattern of crosslinking evident in the CG3294 meta-loop arises because the interacting  TADs share the same biochemical/biophysical properties, and this drives block polymer cosegregation and co-repulsion.  If this model is correct, then this patchwork pattern of TAD:TAD interactions would remain unchanged if we were to delete the blue or the purple boundary.  However, given what we know about how boundaries can find and pair with distant boundaries (c.f., Figure 6 from Muller et el. 1999 and the discussion in #1.2), the result of these gedanken experiments seem clear: the patchwork pattern shown in Author response image 3A will disappear.  What would happen if we inverted the blue or the purple boundary? Would the TAD containing CG33543, Obp22a and Npc2a still interact with fipi as would be expected from the compartment model?  Or would the pattern of interactions flip so that the CG33543, Obp22a and Npc2a TAD interacts with the TAD containing CG3294 and slf?  Again we can anticipate the results based on previous studies: the interacting TADs will switch when the CG3294 meta-loop is converted into a stem-loop.  If this happened, the only explanation possible in the compartment model is that the chromatin states change when the boundary is inverted so that TAD upstream of blue boundary now shares the same chromatin state as the TAD downstream of the purple boundary, while the TAD downstream of the blue boundary shares same state as the TAD upstream of the purple boundary.  However, there is no evidence that boundary orientation per se can induce a complete switch in “chromatin states” as would be required in the compartment model. 

      While we have not done these experimental manipulations with the CG3294 meta-loop, an equivalent experiment was done in Bing et al. (Bing et al. 2024).  However, instead of deleting a boundary element, we inserted a homie boundary element together with two reporters (gfp and LacZ) 142 kb away from the eve TAD.  The result of this gedanken “reverse boundary deletion” experiment is shown in Author response image 5.  Panel A shows the MicroC contact profile in the region spanning the transgene insertion site and the eve TAD in wild type (read “deletion”) NC14 embryos.  Panel B shows the MicroC contact profile from 12-16 hr embryos carrying the homie dual reporter transgene inserted at -142 kb.  Prior to the “deletion”, the homie element in the transgene pairs with nhomie and homie in the eve TAD and this generates a “mini-metaloop.”  In this particular insert, the homie boundary in the transgene (red arrow) is “pointing” in the opposite orientation from the homie boundary in the eve TAD (red arrow).  In this orientation, the pairing of the transgene homie with eve nhomie/homie brings the LacZ reporter into contact with sequences in the eve TAD.  Since a mini-metaloop is formed by homie_à _nhomie/homie pairing, sequences in TADs upstream and downstream of the transgene insert interact with sequences in TADs close to the eve TAD (Author response image 5B).  Taken together these interactions correspond to the interaction patchwork that is typically seen in “compartments” (see boxed region and inset).  If this patchwork is driven as per the model, by block polymer co-segregation and co-repulsion, then it should still be present when the transgene is deleted.  However, panel A shows that the interactions linking the transgene and the sequences in TADs next to the transgene to eve and TADs next to eve disappear when the homie boundary (plus transgene) is “deleted” in wild type flies.

      Author response image 5.

      Boundary deletion and compartments

      A second experiment would be to invert the homie boundary so that instead of pointing away from eve it points towards eve.  Again, if the compartmental patchwork is driven by block polymer co-segregation and co-repulsion, inverting the homie boundary in the transgene should have no effect on the compartmental contact profile.  Inspection of Fig. 7 in Bing et al. (Bing et al. 2024) will show that this prediction doesn’t hold either.  When homie is inverted, sequences in the eve TAD interact with the gfp reporter not the LacZ reporter.  In addition, there are corresponding changes in how sequences in TADs to either side of eve interact with sequences to either side of the transgene insert.  

      Yet another “test” of compartments generated by block polymer co-segregation/co-repulsion is provided by the plume above the eve volcano triangle.  According to the compartment model, sequences in TADs flanking the eve locus form the plume above the eve volcano triangle because their chromatin shares properties that drive block polymer co-segregation.  These same properties result in repulsive interactions with chromatin in the eve TAD, and this would explain why the eve TAD doesn’t crosslink with its neighbors.  If the distinctive chromatin properties of eve and the neighboring TADs drive block polymer co-segregation and co-repulsion, then inverting the nhomie boundary or introducing homie in the forward orientation should have absolutely no effect on the physical interactions between chromatin in the eve TAD and chromatin in the neighboring TADs.  However, Figures 4 and 6 in this paper indicate that boundary pairing orientation, not block polymer co-segregation/co-repulsion, is responsible for forming the plume above the eve TAD. Other findings also appear to be inconsistent with the compartment model. (A) The plume topping the eve volcano triangle is present in NC14 embryos when eve is broadly expressed (and potentially active throughout the embryo).  It is also present in 12-16 hr embryos when eve is only expressed in a very small subset of cells and is subject to PcG silencing everywhere else in the embryo.  B) According to the compartment model the precise patchwork pattern of physical interactions should depend upon the transcriptional program/chromatin state that is characteristic of a particular developmental stage or cell type.  As cell fate decisions are just being made during NC14 one might expect that most nuclei will share similar chromatin states throughout much of the genome.  This would not be true for 12-16 hr embryos.  At this stage the compartmental patchwork would be generated by a complex mixture of interactions in cells that have quite different transcriptional programs and chromatin states.  In this case, the patchwork pattern would be expected to become fuzzy as a given chromosomal segment would be in compartment A in one group of cells and in compartment B in another.   Unlike 12-16 hr embryos,  larval wing discs would be much more homogeneous and likely give a distinct and relatively well resolved compartmental pattern. We’ve examined the compartment patchwork of the same chromosomal segments in NC14 embryos, 12-16 hr embryos and larval wing disc cells.  While there are some differences (e.g., changes in some of the BX-C TADs in the wing disc sample) the compartmental patchwork patterns are surprisingly similar in all three cases. Nor is there any “fuzziness” in the compartmental patterns evident in 12-16 hr embryos, despite the fact that there are many different cell types at this stage of development.  C) TAD interactions with their neighbors and compartmental patchworks are substantially suppressed in salivary gland polytene chromosomes.  This would suggest that features of chromosome structure might be the driving force behind many of the “compartmental” interactions as opposed to distinct biochemical/biophysical of properties of small chromosomal segments that drive polymer co- segregation/co-repulsion.  

      (3) The contact maps presented in the study represent many cells and distinct cell types. It is clear from single-cell Hi-C and multiplexed FISH experiments that chromosome conformation is highly variable even within populations of the same cell, let alone between cell types, with structures such as TADs being entirely absent at the single cell level and only appearing upon pseudobulking. It is difficult to square these observations with the models of relatively static structures depicted here. The authors should provide commentary on this point.

      (2.5) As should be evident from Author response image 1, single-cell Hi-C experiments would not provide useful information about the physical organization of individual TADs, TAD boundaries or how individual TADs interact with their immediate neighbors.  In addition, since they capture only a very small fraction of the possible contacts within and between TADs, we suspect that these single-cell studies aren’t likely to be useful for making solid conclusions about TAD neighborhoods like those shown in Author response image 1 panels A, B, C and D, or Author response image 2.  While it might be possible to discern relatively stable contacts between pairs of insulators in single cells with the right experimental protocol, the stabilities/dynamics of these interactions may be better judged by the length of time that physical interactions are seen to persist in live imaging studies such as Chen et al. (2018), Vazquez et al. (2006) and Li et al. (2011).

      The in situ FISH data we’ve seen also seems problematic in that probe hybridization results in a significant decondensation of chromatin.  For two probe sets complementary to adjacent ~1.2 kb DNA sequences, the measured center-to-center distance that we’ve seen was ~110 nM.  This is about 1/3rd the length that is expected for a 1.2 kb naked DNA fragment, and about 1.7 times larger than that expected for a beads-on-a-string nucleosome array (~60 nM).  However, chromatin is thought to be compacted into a 30 nM fiber, which is estimated to reduce the length of DNA by at least another ~6 fold.  If this estimate is correct, FISH hybridization would appear to result in a ~10 fold decompaction of chromatin.  A decompaction of this magnitude would necessarily be followed by a significant distortion in the actual conformation of chromatin loops.

      (4) The analysis of the Micro-C data appears to be largely qualitative. Key information about the number of reads sequenced, reaps mapped, and data quality are not presented. No quantitative framework for identifying features such as the "plumes" is described. The study and its findings would be strengthened by a more rigorous analysis of these rich datasets, including the use of systematic thresholds for calling patterns of organization in the data.

      Additional information on the number of reads and data quality have been included in the methods section. 

      (5) Related to Point 4, the lack of quantitative details about the Micro-C data make it difficult to evaluate if the changes observed are due to biological or technical factors. It is essential that the authors provide quantitative means of controlling for factors like sampling depth, normalization, and data quality between the samples.

      In our view the changes in the MicroC contact patterns for the eve locus and its neighbors when the nhomie boundary is manipulated are not only clear cut and unambiguous but are also readily evident in the Figs that are presented in the manuscript.  If the reviewer believes that there aren’t significant differences between the MicroC contact patterns for the four different nhomie replacements, it seems certain that they would also remain unconvinced by a quantitative analysis.

      The reviewer also suggests that biological and/or technical differences between the four samples could account for the observed changes in the MicroC patterns for the eve TAD and its neighbors.  If this were the case, then similar changes in MicroC patterns should be observed elsewhere in the genome.  Since much of the genome is analyzed in these MicroC experiments there is an abundance of internal controls for each experimental manipulation of the nhomie boundary.  For two of the nhomie replacements, nhomie reverse and homie forward, the plume above the eve volcano triangle is replaced by clouds surrounding the eve volcano triangle.  If these changes in the eve MicroC contact patterns are due to significant technical (or biological) factors, we should observe precisely the same sorts of changes in TADs elsewhere in the genome that are volcano triangles with plumes.   Author response image 6 shows the MicroC contact pattern for several genes in the Antennapedia complex.  The deformed gene is included in a TAD which, like eve, is a volcano triangle topped by a plume.  A comparison of the deformed MicroC contact patterns for nhomie forward (panel B) with the MicroC patterns for nhomie reverse (panel C) and homie forward (panel D) indicates that while there are clearly technical differences between the samples, these differences do not result in the conversion of the deformed plume into clouds as is observed for the eve TAD.  The MicroC patterns elsewhere in Antennapedia complex are also very similar in all four samples.  Likewise, comparisons of regions elsewhere in the fly genome indicate that the basic contact patterns are similar in all four samples.   So while there are technical differences which are reflected in the relative pixel density in the TAD triangles and the LDC domains, these differences do not result in converting plumes into clouds nor do the alter the basic patterns of TAD triangles and LDC domains.  As for biological differences— the embryos in each sample are at roughly the same developmental stage and were collected and processed using the same procedures. Thus, the biological factors that could reasonably be expected to impact the organization of specific TADs (e.g., cell type specific differences) are not going to impact the patterns we see in our experiments. 

      Author response image 6.

      (6) The ISH effects reported are modest, especially in the case of the HCR. The details provided for how the imaging data were acquired and analyzed are minimal, which makes evaluating them challenging. It would strengthen the study to provide much more detail about the acquisition and analysis and to include depiction of intermediates in the analysis process, e.g. the showing segmentation of stripes.

      The imaging analysis is presented in Fig. 5 is just standard confocal microscopy.  Individual embryos were visualized and scored.  An embryo in which stripes could be readily detected was scored as ‘positive’ while an embryo in which stripes couldn’t be detected was scored as ‘negative.’   

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Editor comments:

      It was noted that the Jaynes lab previously published extensive genetic evidence to support the stem loop and circle loop models of Homie-Nhomie interactions (Fujioka 2016 Plos Genetics) that were more convincing than the Micro-C data presented here in proof of their prior model. Maybe the authors could more clearly summarize their prior genetic results to further try to convince the reader about the validity of their model.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Below, I list specific comments to further improve the manuscript for publication. Most importantly, I recommend the authors tone down their proposal that boundary pairing is a universal TAD forming mechanism.

      (1) The title is cryptic.

      (2) The second sentence in the abstract is an overstatement: "In flies, TADs are formed by physical interactions between neighboring boundaries". Hi-C and Micro-C studies have not provided evidence that most TADs in Drosophila show focal interactions between their bracketing boundaries. The authors rely too strongly on prior studies that used artificial reporter transgenes to show that multimerized insulator protein binding sites or some endogenous fly boundaries can mediate boundary bypass, as evidence that endogenous boundaries pair.

      Please see responses #1.1 and #1.3 and figures Author response image 1 and Author response image 3.  Note that using dHS-C, most TADs that we’ve looked at so far are topped by a “dot” at their apex.

      (3) Line 64: the references do not cite the stated "studies dating back to the '90's'".

      The papers cited for that sentence are reviews which discussed the earlier findings.  The relevant publications are cited at the appropriate places in the same paragraph.  

      (4) Line 93: "On the other hand, while boundaries have partner preferences, they are also promiscuous in their ability to establish functional interactions with other boundaries." It was unclear what is meant here.

      Boundaries that a) share binding sites for proteins that multimerized, b) have binding sites for proteins that interact with each other, or c) have binding sites for proteins that can be bridged by a third protein can potentially pair with each other.  However, while these mechanisms enable promiscuous pairing interactions, they will also generate partner preferences (through a greater number of a, b and/or c).

      (5) It could be interesting to discuss the fact that it remains unclear whether Nhomie and Homie pair in cis or in trans, given that homologous chromosomes are paired in Drosophila.

      The studies in Fujioka et al. (Fujioka et al. 2016) show that nhomie and homie can pair both in cis and in trans.  Given the results described in #1.2, we imagine that they are paired in both cis and trans in our experiments.

      (6) Line 321: Could the authors further explain why they think that "the nhomie reverse circle-loop also differs from the nhomie deletion (λ DNA) in that there is not such an obvious preference for which eve enhancers activate expression"?

      The likely explanation is that the topology/folding of the altered TADs impacts the probability of interactions between the various eve enhancers and the promoters of the flanking genes.  

      (7) The manuscript would benefit from shortening the long Discussion by avoiding repeating points described previously in the Results.

      (8) Line 495: "If, as seems likely, a significant fraction of the TADs genome-wide are circle loops, this would effectively exclude cohesin-based loop extrusion as a general mechanism for TAD formation in flies". The evidence provided in this manuscript appears insufficient to discard ample evidence from multiple laboratories that TADs form by compartmentalization or loop extrusion. Multiple laboratories have, for example, demonstrated that cohesin depletion disrupts a large fraction of mammalian TADs. 

      Points made here and in #9 have been responded to in #1.1, #2.1 and #2.4 above.  We would suggest that the evidence for loop extrusion falls short of compelling (as it is based on the analysis of TAD neighborhoods, not TADs—that is forests, not trees) and given the results reported in Goel et al. (in particular Fig. 4 and Sup Fig. 8) is clearly suspect. This is not to mention the fact that cohesin loop-extrusion can’t generate circle-loops TADs, yet circle-loops clearly exist.  Likewise, as discussed in #2.4, it is not clear to us that the shared chromatin states, polymer co-segregation and co-repulsion account for the compartmental patchwork patterns of TAD;TAD interactions. The results from the  experimental manipulations in this paper and the accompanying paper, together with studies by others (e.g., Kyrchanova et al. (Kyrchanova et al. 2008), Mohana et al. (Mohana et al. 2023) would also seem to be at odds with the model for compartments as currently formulated.  

      The unique properties of Nhomie and Homie, namely the remarkable specificity with which they physically pair over large distances (Fujioka et al. 2016) may rather suggest that boundary pairing is a phenomenon restricted to special loci. Moreover, it has not yet been demonstrated that Nhomie or Homie are also able to pair with the TAD boundaries on their left or right, respectively.

      Points made here were discussed in detail in #1.2.  As described in detail in #1.2, It is not the case that nhomie and homie are in “unique” or “special.”  Other fly boundaries can do the same things.  As for whether nhomie and homie pair with their neighbors:  We haven’t done transgene experiments (e.g., testing by transvection or boundary bypass).  Likewise, in MicroC experiments there are no obvious dots at the apex of the neighboring TADs that would correspond to nhomie pairing with the neighboring boundary to the left and homie pairing with the neighboring boundary to the right. However, this is to be expected. As we discussed in in #1.3 above, only MNase resistant elements will generate dots in standard MicroC experiments.  On the other hand, when boundary:boundary interactions are analyzed by dHS-C (c.f., Author response image 4), there are dots at the apex of both neighboring TADs.  This would be direct evidence that nhomie pairs with the neighboring boundary to the left and homie pairs with the neighboring boundary to the right.

      (9) The comment in point 8 also applies to the concluding 2 sentences (lines 519-524) of the Discussion.

      See response to 8 above. Otherwise, the concluding sentences are completely accurate. Validation of the cohesin loop extrusion/CTCF roadblock model will required demonstrating a) that all TADs are either stem-loops or unanchored loops and b) that TAD endpoints are always marked by CTCF. 

      The likely presence of circle-loops and evidence that TAD boundaries that don’t have CTCF (c.f.,Goel et al. 2023) already suggests that this model can’t (either fully or not all) account for TAD formation in mammals. 

      (10) Figs. 3 and 6: It would be helpful to add the WT screenshot in the same figure, for direct comparison.

      It is easy enough to scroll between Figs-especially since nhomie forward looks just like WT.

      (11) Fig. 6: It would be helpful to show a cartoon view of a circle loop to the right of the Micro-C screenshot, as was done in Fig. 3.

      Good idea.   Added to the Fig.

      (12) Fig. 5: It would be helpful to standardize the labelling of the different genotypes throughout the figures and panels ("inverted" versus "reverse" versus an arrow indicating the direction).

      Fixed.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor Points:

      (1) The Micro-C data does not appear to be deposited in an appropriate repository. It would be beneficial to the community to make these data available in this way.

      This has been done.

      (2) Readers not familiar with Drosophila development would benefit from a gentle introduction to the stages analyzed and some brief discussion on how the phenomenon of somatic homolog pairing might influence the study, if at all.

      We included a rough description the stages that were analyzed for both the in situs and MicroC. We thought that an actual description of what is going on at each of the stages wasn’t necessary as the process of development is not a focus of this manuscript.  In other studies, we’ve found that there are only minor differences in MicroC patterns between the blastoderm stage and stage 12-16 embryos.  While these minor differences are clearly interesting, we didn’t discuss them in the text.   In all of experiments chromosomes are likely to be paired.  In NC14 embryos (the stage for visualizing eve stripes and the MicroC contact profiles in Fig. 2) replication of euchromatic sequences is thought to be quite rapid.  While homolog pairing is incomplete at this stage, sister chromosomes are paired.  In stage 12-16 embryos, homologs will be paired and if the cells are arrested in G2, then sister chromosome will also be paired.  So in all of experiments, chromosomes (sisters and/or homologs) are paired. However, since we don’t have examples of unpaired chromosomes, our experiments don’t provide any info on how chromosome pairing might impact MicroC/expression patterns.

      (3) "P > 0.01" appears several times. I believe the authors mean to report "P < 0.01".

      Fixed.  

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This valuable study examines the role of a host in conditions that shift pathogenicity of opportunistic microbes. The use of single-cell microbial transcriptomics and metabolomics to demonstrate the host's effects on pathogen dynamics is interesting and convincing. However, the connection to host antimicrobial peptides driving these effects is incomplete and would benefit from additional evidence and improved explanation in the text. This paper has the potential to be of broad interest to those working in host-microbe (microbiome and pathogen) interactions.

      We appreciate the editors for organizing our manuscript and providing eLife assessment. We went through each comment and carried out some necessary experiments. According to the comments, we here provide additional evidence that further supports our findings in this revised manuscript.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this work, Wang and colleagues used Drosophila-Serratia as a host-microbe model to investigate the impact of the host on gut bacteria. The authors showed that Drosophila larvae reduce S. marcescens abundance in the food likely due to a combination of mechanical force and secretion of antimicrobial peptides. S. marcescens exposed to Drosophila larvae lost virulence to flies and could promote larval growth similar to typical Drosophila gut commensals. These phenotypic changes were reflected in the transcriptome and metabolome of bacteria, suggesting that the host could drive the switch from pathogenicity to commensalism in bacteria. Further, the authors used single-cell bacterial RNA-seq to demonstrate the heterogeneity in gut bacterial populations.

      Strengths:

      This is a valuable work that addresses an important question of the effect of the host on its gut microbes. The authors could convincingly demonstrate that gut bacteria are strongly affected by the host with important consequences for both interacting partners. Moreover, the authors used state-of-the-art bacterial single-cell RNA-seq to reveal heterogeneity in host-associated commensal populations.

      Weaknesses:

      Some of the conclusions are not fully supported by the data.

      Specifically, in lines 142-143, the authors claim that larva antagonizes the pathogenicity of S. marcescens based on the survival data. I do not fully agree with this statement. An alternative possibility could be that, since there are fewer S. marcescens in larvae-processed food, flies receive a lower pathogen load and consequently survive. Can the authors rule this out?

      Also, the authors propose that Drosophila larvae induce a transition from pathogenicity to commensalism in S. marcescens and provide nice phenotypic and transcriptomic data supporting this claim. However, is it driven only by transcriptional changes? Considering high mutation rates in bacteria, it is possible that S. marcescens during growth in the presence of larvae acquired mutations causing all the observed phenotypic and transcriptional changes. To test this possibility, the authors could check how long S. marcescens maintains the traits it acquires during growth with Drosophila. If these traits persist after reculturing isolated bacteria, it is very likely they are caused by genome alterations, if not - likely it is a phenotypic switch driven by transcriptional changes.

      We thank the reviewer for providing a feasible method to distinguish the shift in transcriptional profile from genomic mutations. According to this valuable suggestion, we checked phenotypic and transcriptional changes after re-culturing the bacterium that had coexisted with larvae. We found that all phenotypes can be recovered after re-culturing. The new data supported our previous result that a phenotypic switch was driven by transcriptional changes rather than genome mutations. We now add these results to the text with figure supplement 3 (line 147-151, 192-194). Please see the following text.

      “To rule out the possibility that phenotypic alterations could stem from genomic mutations, we examined the prodigiosin yield and CFUs of re-culturing S. marcescens that had coexisted with larvae. Our results showed that neither prodigiosin yield nor CFUs of re-culturing S. marcescens differed from the original strain (Figure 2-figure supplement 3A-C), suggesting that a phenotypic switch was driven primarily by transcriptional reprogramming.” “Consistent with the previous result that this phenotypic switch was driven by transcriptional changes, the expression of virulent and growth genes was recovered after re-culturing (Figure 3-figure supplement 3D, E).”

      For the first question, we admit the possibility that the high morality of flies could result from the acquirement of a higher pathogen load, because of an increase in the bacterial load of single S. marcescens. However, host pathogenesis is normally determined by the virulence of pathogens rather than the number of bacteria. For example, hosts constantly harbor astonishing commensals in their guts, but remain healthy. This evidence suggests that it was the property (virulence) of a pathogen that is more important to affect the health status of the hosts. Moreover, an increase in virulence of single S. marcescens was verified by real-time PCR (Fig. 2F) and TE (Fig. 2G). Taken together, we could draw a conclusion that the impaired survival of flies challenged with single S. marcescens mainly arose from an increase in the virulence of S. marcescens. Thanks for your understanding!

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      While many studies have explored the impacts of pathogens on hosts, the effect of hosts on pathogens has received less attention. In this manuscript, Wang et al. utilize Drosophila melanogaster and an opportunistic pathogen, Serratia marcescens, to explore how the host impacts pathogenicity. Beginning with an observation that larval presence and density impacted microbial growth in fly vials (which they assess qualitatively as the amount of 'slick' and quantitatively as microbial load/CFUs), the authors focus on the impact of axenic/germ-free larvae on an opportunistic pathogen S. marcescens. Similar to their observations with general microbial load, they find that larvae reduce the presence of a pinkish slick of Sm, indicative of its secondary metabolite prodigiosin. The presence of larvae alters prodigiosin production, pathogen load, pathogen cellular morphology, and virulence, and this effect is through transcriptional and metabolic changes in the pathogen. Overall, they observe a loss of virulence factors/pathways and an increase in pathways contributing to growth. Given the important role the host plays in this lifestyle shift, the authors then examined host features that might influence these effects, focusing on the role of antimicrobial peptides (Amps). The authors combine the use of synthetic Amps and an Amp-deficient fly line and conclude much of the larval inhibitory effect is due to their production of AMPs.

      Strengths:

      This is a very interesting question and the use of Drosophila-Serratia marcescens is a great model to explore these interactions and effects.

      The authors have an interesting and compelling phenotype and are asking a unique question on the impact of the host on the pathogen. The use of microbial transcriptomics and metabolomics is a strength, especially in order to assess these impacts on the pathogen level and at the single-cell level to capture heterogeneity.

      Weaknesses:

      Overall, the writing style in the manuscript makes it difficult to fully understand and appreciate the data and its interpretation.

      The data on the role of AMPs would benefit from strengthening. Some of the arguments in the text of that section are also counterintuitive. The authors show that △AMP larvae have a reduced impact on Sm as compared to wt larvae, but it seems less mild of an effect than that observed with wt excreta (assuming the same as secreta in Figures 7, should be corrected or harmonized). Higher doses of AMPs give a phenotype similar to wt larvae, but a lower dose (40 ng/ul) gives phenotypes more similar to controls. The authors argue that this data suggests AMPs are the factor responsible for much of the inhibition, but their data seems more to support that it's synergistic- you seem to still need larvae (or some not yet defined feature larvae make, although secreta/excreta was not sufficient) + AMPs to see similar effects as wt. Based on positioning and color scheme guessing that AMP 40ng/ul was used in Figures 7D-H, but could not find this detail in the text, methods, or figure legend and it should be indicated. This section does not seem to be well supported by the provided data, and this inconsistency greatly dampened this reviewer's enthusiasm for the paper.

      We thank the reviewer’s valuable comments and suggestions. We admitted that some photos of the pinkish slick (prodigiosin) are counterintuitive in Figure 7 as well as figure supplement 2B. Here comes the reason. Single S. marcescens produced prodigiosin that only stayed on the surface of fly agar medium. As we know, larvae can agitate food and form a stratification of prodigiosin, even making higher prodigiosin yield inside food lighter than the surface slick of prodigiosin. We mentioned it in the previous manuscript line 166-168. This is why some photos treated with excreta and a lower dose of AMP seemed more intense than those with WT larvae. However, we precisely quantified the prodigiosin yield inside food with the spectrophotometer, so we provided a prodigiosin yield following the photos of the slick. Therefore, we drew our conclusions mainly relying on the quantification of the prodigiosin yield. We actually used cecropin A for our experiments, so we added this information in the text. We hope that our replies can reignite your enthusiasm for our manuscript, and thanks for your great support!

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      In this study, Wang and coworkers established a model of Drosophila-S. marcescens interactions and thoroughly examined host-microbe bidirectional interactions. They found that:

      (1) Drosophila larvae directly impact microbial aggregation and density;

      (2) Drosophila larvae affect microbial metabolism and cell wall morphology, as evidenced by reduced prodigiosin production and EPS production, respectively;

      (3) Drosophila larvae attenuate microbial virulence;

      (4) Drosophila larvae modulate the global transcription of microbes for adaptation to the host;

      (5) Microbial single-cell RNA sequencing (scRNA-seq) analysis revealed heterogeneity in microbial pathogenicity and growth;

      (6) AMPs are key factors controlling microbial virulence phenotypes.

      Taken together, they concluded that host immune factors such as AMPs are directly involved in the pathogen-to-commensal transition by altering microbial transcription.

      General comments:

      In general, this study is intriguing as it demonstrates that host immune effectors such as AMPs can serve as critical factors capable of modulating microbial transcription for host-microbe symbiosis. However, several important questions remain unanswered. One such question is: What is the mechanism by which AMPs modulate the pathogen-to-commensal transition? One hypothesis suggests that antimicrobial activity may influence microbial physiology, subsequently modulating transcription for the transition from pathogen to commensal. In this context, it is imperative to test various antibiotics with different modes of action (e.g., targeting the cell wall, transcription, or translation) at sub-lethal concentrations to determine whether sub-lethal doses of antimicrobial activity are sufficient to induce the pathogen-to-commensal transition.

      Thank you for the important comments on our manuscript. We checked the effect of antibiotics (5 μg/μl kanamycin and 10 μg/μl ampicillin) on the virulence switch of S. marcescens. We found that the two antibiotics with the sub-lethal doses similarly resulted in a decrease in prodigiosin yield and virulence expression of S. marcescens. Intriguingly, the two antibiotics also resulted in a dramatic decline in the bacterial load and the expression of genes involved in cell growth. These results suggest that antibiotics reduced the virulence primarily through suppressing most activities of bacteria.

      We found that larvae and AMPs at 40 μg/μl modestly resulted in a decrease in bacterial load and an increase in the relative level of genes involved in cellular proliferation, suggesting that AMPs could maintain the exponential phase of bacterial growth. This result is consistent that Drosophila larvae can support the long-term persistence of commensals in the shared habitat (DOI: 10.1016/j.cmet.2017.11.011). The inhibition could prevent bacteria from rapidly exhausting their nutritional resources, and consequently maintain symbiosis. It is likely that AMPs could maintain S. marcescens at the exponential phase of cell growth and prevent bacteria from rapidly exhausting their nutritional resources.

      Author response image 1.

      (A) Representative images of surface slick with S. marcescens alone, with kanamycin (5 μg/μl) and ampicillin (10 μg/μl). (B) The prodigiosin production of S. marcescens alone, with kanamycin (5 μg/μl) and ampicillin (10 μg/μl). n = 6 for each. (C) Bacterial loads of S. marcescens alone, with kanamycin (5 μg/μl) and ampicillin (10 μg/μl). n = 6 for each. (D, E) RT-qPCR analysis of the expression levels of downregulated and upregulated genes in the S. marcescens alone, with kanamycin (5 μg/μl) and ampicillin (10 μg/μl). n = 3 for each. Means ± SEMs. All variables have different letters, they are significantly different (p < 0.05). If two variables share a letter, they are not significantly different (p > 0.05). ns, no significance. Kruskal-Wallis test followed by Dunn’s multiple comparisons test.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Here are some specific points that need to be addressed:

      (1) Lack of statistical analysis for many figures. The authors should perform and report the statistical analysis for all figures where it is currently lacking, specifically, Figures 2C, D, E, F, H; Figures 3E, F; Figures 7G, H; Figure S2E, Figures S3D, E.

      Thanks for your valuable suggestions. We re-checked the manuscript and performed the statistical analysis for these figures.

      (2) For graphs showing dots, it should be specified what exactly individual dots show and how many animals were used per replicate. Also, time points at which specific analysis was performed should be specified.

      We provided the important information in the legends in the revised manuscript.

      (3) Figure 2. No letters illustrating statistical significance are shown, although this is claimed in the legend (line 848).

      We added statistical significance in the updated Figure 2.

      (4) In Figure 7, the authors used AMPs of defined concentration, but it is not specified what exactly these AMPs are. Please provide the full composition of the AMP mix used.

      We used the antimicrobial peptide cecropin A produced by a silkworm. We added this information in the methods line 487-488 and Figure 7 legend.

      (5) Figure S2B. To me, it looks like that medium with larvae is redder than after mechanical force. I find it hard to believe the quantification in panel C that the medium with larvae has 3 times less pigment as compared to the mechanical force.

      Larvae could only agitate the surface of food (~0.4 cm), but sticks completely agitated the food up to 3 cm. Thus, the layer of food with pink pigment with agitation seemed much deeper than with larvae, which was responsible for the counterintuitively. We explained it in the previous manuscript (line 166-168). “Of note, the surface of the slick with agitation appeared lighter than that of larvae, mainly due to a stratification of prodigiosin following agitation.”

      (6) The authors need to proofread the manuscript as there are missing words, terms that need definition, and wrong terms. For example, L86 - naked eye?, L117 - what do the authors mean by co-culture?, L309 - not resist but rather combat, L347 - Species? or competition?, Figure 2A - 2nd?

      We have corrected these errors in the new manuscript. We added an "eye" in L86. Co-culture means “S. marcescens in co-culture”. Interspecies competition for nearly the same or similar nutrients and space occurs in the habitat.

      (7) The authors should reorganize either the text or the figures' order in a way that the figures are described in a consecutive order (Figure 1A, B ... and not Figure 1D first and then 1A).

      Thanks for your valuable advice. We reorganize the order of the text.

      (8) Do the authors have an idea which bacteria they quantified in Figures 1E to 1G? I didn't find the medium that was used for culturing. Also, in Figure 1F, Is the control group comprised of females or males?

      Mixed bacteria (bacteria in the living environment of Drosophila) were quantified in the NA medium that supports the growth of Drosophila microbiota (Jia Y, et al. Nat Commun. 2021) line 474-475. The control group comprised of both males and females with a 1:1 ratio. Similarly, the aged group contained 100 50-day-aged flies, male: female = 1:1. We provided details in Figure 1 legend line 849-850, 851-852.

      (9) L118-129. it is not possible to make all these statements without any statistical analysis. To me, at 96h both treatments have the same CFUs, while the authors claim they are different.

      We added statistical analysis in the current version. In fact, single S. marcescens became collapsed after 72 h post inoculation, and the CFU number of single S. marcescens declined step by step. The bacterial load of S. marcescens in co-culture was comparable (at 96 h post-inoculation, p>0.05) or higher (at 120 h post-inoculation, p<0.001) than S. marcescens alone, possibly explained by the possibility that bacteria rapidly exhausted the nutritional resources and collapsed through population suicide. We rewrote this sentence line 125-129 in the updated manuscript.

      (10) L136. term "symbionts" is not appropriate here.

      We change “symbionts” into “S. marcescens”.

      (11) In Figure 1, the authors used flies of different fitness: weak, strong, and infertile. They should be specific and describe exactly what these terms mean, are these mutants or treatments that affect the fitness?

      We apologize for this missing information and add them in the method and legend. Strong flies (wild-type fly CS), weak flies (yw; Sp/CyO; MKRS/TM6B), infertile flies (dfmr150M null mutant) Figure 1 legend line 849-850.

      (12) Figure S2. The title of this figure is misleading, please modify it. Mechanical force did affect S. marcescens but to a lesser degree as compared to larvae.

      Thank you for your suggestion. We admit that mechanical force affected S. marcescens but to a lesser degree as compared to larvae, so we changed the title to "Biological factors mainly determine S. marcescens lifestyle."

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      General improvement to writing and presentation (see below):

      Describing confluent growth would make more sense than 'slick' and then using descriptions of broken, etc. "colour intensity of the surface slick".

      We used the slick to describe visible surface films of bacteria, which has been used in the previous study (DOI: 10.1038/s43705-023-00307-8). Slick is equal to confluent growth, but seems simple and easy than confluent growth. To make sense, we add this reference to the text.

      We reorganized the text of Figure 1.

      Suggest more specific language to describe observations. For example: Bacterial loading - S. marcescens growth (for example: the presence of dense fly populations reduced Sm growth).

      Thanks for the suggests. We replaced some of them.

      Symbiont, microbiota, microbiome, etc were all used interchangeably throughout the manuscript, but I am not sure I would call Sm part of the indigenous microbiome. Suggest to ensure proper usage and then harmonize throughout the ms.

      We used microbes and microbiome to replace symbiont and microbiota, respectively.

      Details missing from the message and Figure legends that would be helpful (including and especially Figure 7 - what AMP concentration?)

      Thanks for valuable comments. According to this comment, we provided concrete details in the Materials and methods and Figure 7 legend about AMPs, including the source and concentration of AMPs line 487-488, 954-955. Please see the response below.

      L73: define 'these issues" maybe or lead better with the prior sentence, it is not evident as currently written.

      Change "to address these issues" to " To investigate whether and/or how the host modulates bacterial lifestyles,” and merge two paragraphs.

      L74: repetitive sentence with the above.

      Thanks for pointing out this detail. We deleted it.

      L86: naked 'eye'.

      Added.

      L87: what is meant by 'weak flies'?

      Genotypes were added in the updated manuscript. Weak fly stocks display weaker activity and generate fewer eggs than WT flies.

      L96: bacterial load, not loading.

      Corrected.

      L128: no evidence to support, could be reflective of increased numbers in dying/dead larvae that impact total numbers in the vial.

      The number of CFUs of S. marcescens alone was gradually decreased at 96 h post-inoculation. In addition, we observed pale biofilm on the surface of the medium at the late stage. The numbers of CFUs of S. marcescens alone at the later stages were reduced (compared to the peak load at 48 h post-inoculation), so it was deterred that bacteria could undergo ecological suicide. Ecological suicide of the bacterial population was similarly examined by recording the number of CFUs in the medium over time (Ratzke C, et al. Nat Ecol Evol. 2018.). Taken together, we draw a conclusion that bacteria possibly underwent ecological suicide.

      L129: the prior sentence is in contradiction, reduced load only at early time points in the presence of larvae....

      Thanks for pointing out this detail. We added " before 72 h post-inoculation " in the sentence.

      L134: data is only focused on S marcescens, so inferring to 'symbionts' broadly is outside study.

      We change “symbionts” into “S. marcescens”.

      L139: sentence poorly written and confusing.

      We re-organized this sentence.

      To this end, we sought to examine the S. marcescens lifestyle switch from pathogenicity to commensalism by assessing the respective survival of flies on the fly medium that had been processed by single or coexisting S. marcescens.

      L189: evidence for long-term symbiosis is not well established in this paper, suggest editing this language throughout to more specifically reflect what the data supports and leave such interpretations to discussion points and future work.

      Thanks for your valuable advice. We deleted long-term and “thereby promoting the fitness of symbionts in the long maintenance.”.

      L192; used metabolomics to assess the impacts of larvae on bacterial metabolism, as currently written does not make sense.

      We rewrote this sentence. “Next, we investigated whether larvae could further elicit changes in the metabolism of S. marcescens using untargeted metabolomics.”

      L331: the use of monitored here is not correct/odd.

      We changed 'monitored' to 'reshaping’.

      L340: While the authors initially see a cost to Sm in reduced load (CFUs) at 120 h populations associated with larvae become higher - there is also a cost to producing virulence factors, which their RNASeq and metabolomics data support - trade-offs between growth and virulence.

      Thanks for your suggestion. We added “before 72 hours post inoculation” to define the early stage of the bacterial growth in the sentence.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Figures 1 A-D: What defines weak and strong flies, and what criteria determine the robustness of flies? How was the experiment conducted? The manuscript lacks details on this matter.

      We thank you for your comments. We lack a criterium, but the robustness of flies comes from daily experience. Weak fly stocks display weak activity and generate fewer eggs than WT flies. Genotypes with different robustness were added in the legend in the updated manuscript

      (2) The authors mentioned, "Noteworthily, the number of CFUs of S. marcescens alone was lower than S. marcescens in co-cultures at the late stage (at 96 h post inoculation), likely that bacteria rapidly exhausted their nutritional resources and underwent ecological suicide." How did they determine that the bacteria exhausted nutritional resources and underwent ecological suicide? One might speculate that larvae could have removed the bacteria simply by consuming them.

      Thanks for this comment. Virtually, there were no larvae inside the vials with single S. marcescens, so bacterial cells were not consumed. However, the numbers of CFUs of S. marcescens alone at the later stages were reduced (compared to the peak load at 48 h post-inoculation), so it was deterred that bacteria could undergo ecological suicide. Ecological suicide of the bacterial population was examined by recording the number of CFUs in the medium over time (Ratzke C, et al. Nat Ecol Evol. 2018.). A similar method was also applied to the number of CFUs of S. marcescens. Taken together, we draw a conclusion that bacteria possibly underwent ecological suicide.

      (3) Figure 2E: The experimental details should be provided in the text. What was the CFU of the bacteria used in this survival experiment?

      We provided further experimental details in the legend line 869-870. The same amount of inocula was used in both single and coculturing S. marcescens.

      (4) The experimental data in Figures 2G and 2H do not sufficiently prove the relationship between the width of the cell wall and virulence, as it lacks experimental validation.

      Previous studies (DOI: 10.1371/journal.ppat.1005946) reveal that glucosylating toxins on the surface are primary virulence determinants, so an increased surface-anchored polysaccharide and protein profile promotes the virulence of the pathogen. Alterations in cell surface (the width of the cell wall) can be examined by TE. Moreover, TE was used to observe changes in the virulence of S. marcescens (DOI: 10.1093/nar/gkab1186). We think that the width of the cell wall could be used to reflect virulence in S. marcescens.

      (5) While it's acknowledged that agitation decreases the color intensity of the bacteria, comparing mechanical agitation with larval crawling seems inappropriate, as the mechanical forces exerted by both methods are not of the same magnitude.

      Thanks for the suggestion. In fact, food was agitated more heavily by glass sticks than by larvae, because larvae merely agitated the surface of food (about 0.5 cm-depth). If the decrease in bacterial load and color was related to the magnitude of agitation, larvae would confer a less decrease (from the decrease in stick agitation) in bacterial load than the sticks. Consequently, it would further support our result that biofactors more importantly confer the inhibition of S. marcescens than force.

      (6) Figure 4D: with this metabolome data, they mentioned, "host suppresses differentiation of S. marcescens into the population with pathogenicity." What evidence supports the claim that downregulation of amino acid metabolism, phosphotransferase system, and ABC transporter directly correlates with decreased pathogenicity?

      Thanks for the comment. Earlier studies showed that amino acid-derived quorum sensing molecules are closely related to bacterial pathogenicity (Defoirdt T. PLoS Pathog. 2019; Wen J, et al. Microbiol Spectr. 2022). Moreover, the phosphotransferase system and ABC transporter can transport and/or produce virulence factors. Therefore, we claimed that downregulation of amino acid metabolism, phosphotransferase system, and ABC transporter directly were related to decreased pathogenicity. To support this claim, we add some references in the updated manuscript line 662-664, 827-830.

      (7) Serotonin: Does serotonin also reduce the virulence of S. marcescens?

      Our primary result showed that serotonin indeed could reduce the virulence of S. marcescens (figure supplement 4), because the survival rate of adult flies was increased and the expression levels of virulence-related genes of S. marcescens alone in the case of serotonin.

      (8) Figures 6D, E, H, I: The expression of key genes should be verified using quantitative real-time polymerase chain reaction (qRT-PCR), as scRNA-seq expression levels might not accurately reflect the true expression levels.

      Bacterial single-cell RNA-seq can evaluate alterations in gene expression in the single-cell resolution. The expression of key genes screened by scRNA-seq was changed only in subpopulations, so the average expression of these genes would be comparable when mixed with a large population. We are afraid that qRT-PCR could be illegible to verify the expression of genes in subpopulations.

      (9) Figure 7: The authors mentioned. "AMPs were supplemented to fly food". However, I could not find information regarding which AMPs and their respective concentrations (i.e., concentration of each AMP) were used in this study. This is a critical aspect of the research; therefore, details should be provided.

      Thanks for your important suggestions. We used the antimicrobial peptide cecropin A, which is produced by silkworms. We provided this information in the methods line 487-488. The concentrations of cecropin A were added in Figure 7 legend.

      (10) Figure 7: Delta AMP + AMP exhibited a stronger effect on the bacteria compared to AMP alone, indicating that immune effectors other than AMP may be involved. Since the IMD pathway is necessary for most immune effectors, including AMP, it would be interesting to test IMD pathway mutant animals and compare them with Delta AMP. Delta AMP + AMP exhibited a stronger effect on the bacteria compared to AMP alone. 

      We appreciate this important question. Indeed, Delta AMP + AMP exhibited a stronger effect on the bacteria compared to AMP alone. We admitted that immune effectors other than AMP may be involved. Alternatively, mechanical force, to a less extent, accounted for the stronger effect on the bacteria (Explained by larvae agitation in figure supplement 2). To rule out this possibility, we examined the effect of total immune effectors on the bacterial load and the prodigiosin yield of S. marcescens using the IMD pathway mutant (RelE20 larvae). Our result showed that the optical density and yield of prodigiosin in Delta AMP group did not significantly differ from the ones in RelE20 group. Moreover, the load of S. marcescens associated with Delta AMP mutant was comparable to that of S. marcescens associated with RelE20 mutant. These results suggested that AMPs play a major role in recapitulating the response of _S. marcescens t_o larvae.

      “To rule out the potential role of other immune effectors, we turned to the IMD pathway mutant RelE20 that is deficient in total immune effectors. Our result showed that the optical density and yield of prodigiosin in RelE20 group did not significantly differ from the ones in DAMP group (figure supplement 7A, B). Moreover, the load of S. marcescens associated with RelE20 mutant was comparable to that of S. marcescens associated with Delta AMP mutant (figure supplement 7C).”

      We now added these results in the text line 326-331.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      List of major changes

      (1) We have emphasized the assumptions underlying our modeling approach in the third paragraph of the Introduction section.

      (2) We have included a new paragraph in the Discussion section to compare our model with a molecular mechanism-oriented model.

      (3) We have included a new paragraph at the end of the Introduction section to outline the main content of each subsection in Results and the logical connections between them. Correspondingly, the chapter hierarchy and section titles have been adjusted.

      (4) The Supplementary Material includes an additional table (Table S2) that provides detailed explanations of the symbols used in the model.

      (5) We have included a new paragraph in the Introduction section to explicitly emphasize the phenomenological nature of our model and its broad applicability.

      (6) In the Osmoregulation subsection, we have added a discussion on how our model can be directly generalized to scenarios involving the environmental uptake of osmolytes.

      (7) We have included a more detailed examination of the limitations inherent in our modeling approach in the second last paragraph of the Discussion section.

      (8) In the third last paragraph of the Discussion section, we have explicitly demonstrated that our model does not conflict with the observation that, in E. coli, cell wall synthesis is not directly regulated by the turgor pressure.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      A theoretical model for microbial osmoresponse was proposed. The model assumes simple phenomenological rules: (i) the change of free water volume in the cell due to osmotic imbalance based on pressure balance, (ii) osmoregulation that assumes change of the proteome partitioning depending on the osmotic pressure that affects the osmolyte-producing protein production, (iii) the cell-wall synthesis regulation where the change of the turgor pressure to the cell-wall synthesis efficiency to go back to the target turgor pressure, (iv) effect of Intracellular crowding assuming that the biochemical reactions slow down for more crowding and stops when the protein density (protein mass divided by free water volume) reaches a critical value. The parameter values were found in the literature or obtained by fitting to the experimental data. The authors compare the model behavior with various microorganisms (E. coli, B. subtils, S. Cerevisiae, S. pombe), and successfully reproduced the overall trend (steady state behavior for many of them, dynamics for S. pombe). In addition, the model predicts non-trivial behavior such as the fast cell growth just after the hypoosmotic shock, which is consistent with experimental observation. The authors further make experimentally testable predictions regarding mutant behavior and transient dynamics.

      Strength:

      The theory assumes simple mechanistic dependence between core variables without going into specific molecular mechanisms of regulations. The simplicity allows the theory to apply to different organisms by adjusting the time scales with parameters, and the model successfully explains broad classes of observed behaviors. Mathematically, the model provides analytical expressions of the parameter dependences and an understanding of the dynamics through the phase space without being buried in the detail. This theory can serve as a base to discuss the universality and diversity of microbial osmoresponse.

      We would like to thank Reviewer 1 for thoroughly reading our work and appreciating our theoretical approach to investigating microbial osmotic response.

      Weakness:

      The core part of this model is that everything is coupled with growth physiology, and, as far as I understand, the assumption (iv) (Eq. 8) that imposes the global reaction rate dependence on crowding plays a crucial role. I would think this is a strong and interesting assumption. However, the abstract or discussion does not discuss the importance of this assumption. In addition, the paper does not discuss gene regulation explicitly, and some comparison with a molecular mechanismoriented model may be beneficial to highlight the pros and cons of the current approach

      We thank Reviewer 1 for their very helpful feedback. We have significantly revised the manuscript as suggested by Reviewer 1. See the detailed answers in the following.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors)

      (1) Explicitly stating the assumption (iv) in the abstract and discussing its role would help readers understand.

      In the revised manuscript, we have significantly rewritten the third paragraph of the Introduction section to emphasize our key assumptions as suggested by Reviewer 1, including the relationship between global reaction rate and crowding:

      “Our model assumes the following phenomenological rules: (1) the change in free water volume within the cell is driven by osmotic imbalance (Cadart et al., Nature Physics, 2019; Rollin et al., Elife, 2023), while the remaining volume changes in proportion to protein production; (2) osmoregulation influences the production of osmolyte-producing protein, governed by intracellular protein density (Scott et al., Science, 2010); (3) cell-wall synthesis is regulated through a feedback mechanism, wherein turgor pressure modulates the efficiency of cell-wall synthesis, enabling the cell to maintain a relatively stable turgor pressure; and (4) intracellular crowding slows down biochemical reactions as cytoplasmic density increases, with reactions ceasing entirely when protein density reaches a critical threshold.”

      We have also modified the abstract to mention the crowding effects explicitly. Additionally, we have added a few sentences in the first and second paragraphs of the Discussion section to emphasize the importance of crowding effects to our conclusions regarding the growth rate reduction in steady states and the non-monotonic dependence of the growth rate peak on the shock amplitude after a hyperosmotic shock.

      (2) I found [Shen W , Gao Z, Chen K, Zhao A, Ouyang Q, Luo C. The regulatory mechanism of the yeast osmoresponse under different glucose concentrations. Iscience. 2023 Jan 20;26(1)], which discusses the medium glucose concentration dependence of the response, focused on the gene regulatory circuit and the metabolic flux. As far as I understood, this paper considers the effect of the reallocation of resources but not the mechanical part of the osmoresponse such as pressure explicitly. It will be interesting to discuss the pros and cons in comparison with such a model. In principle, I will not be surprised if the current model does not differentiate the different glucose concentrations much since it is a more coarse-grained model, and I don't think it is a problem, but it will be good to have an explicit discussion.

      We appreciate Reviewer 1's insightful comment regarding the work by Shen et al. (iScience, 2023), which elucidates the two distinct osmoresponse strategies in yeast. By quantifying Hog1 nuclear translocation dynamics and downstream protein expression, the study reveals that in a rich medium, cells can leverage surplus glycolytic products as defensive reserves, reallocating metabolic flux to facilitate rapid adaptation to osmotic changes. Conversely, limited glycolytic intermediates in low-glucose environments necessitate increased enzyme synthesis for osmotic adaptation. 

      The paper highlighted by Reviewer 1 studies yeast's adaptive strategies under two stresses— nutrient limitation and osmotic pressure and provides an important complement to our study.

      In our simplified model, we did not include the interaction between cell growth and osmolyte production, assuming a constant fraction of ribosomes translating ribosomal proteins, supported by the experiments of E. coli (Dai et al., mBio, 2018). We remark that incorporating competitive dynamics for translational resources into our framework can be achieved by modifying the proportion of ribosomes translating themselves (X<sub>r</sub>), from a constant to a function related to the translation strategy of the osmolyte-producing enzyme ((X<sub>a</sub>).

      In the revised manuscript, we have included a new discussion in the third paragraph of the Discussion section to compare our approach with the molecular mechanism-oriented model:

      “We remark that our model is intrinsically a coarse-grained model with many molecular details regarding gene expression regulation neglected, which allows us to gain more analytical insights. In [Shen et al., iScience, 2023], the authors studied the responses to osmotic stress in glucose-limited environments and found that cells exhibited stronger osmotic gene expression response under glucose-limited conditions than under glucose-rich conditions. Using a computational model based on molecular mechanisms combined with experimental measurements, the authors demonstrated that in a glucose-limited environment, glycolysis intermediates were limited, which required cells to express more glycerol-production enzymes for stress adaptation. In the current version of our model, we do not account for the interaction between cell growth and osmolyte production; instead, we assume a constant fraction of ribosomes dedicated to translating ribosomal proteins. Our model can be further generalized to include the more complex interactions, including the coupling between biomass and osmolyte production, e.g., by allowing the fraction of ribosomes translating ((X<sub>r</sub>) to depend on the translation strategy of the osmolyte-producing enzyme ((X<sub>a</sub>).”

      (3) A minor comment: The authors call assumption (iii) (eq. 7) "positive feedback from turgor pressure to the cell-wall synthesis efficiency" (line 204). I have a hard time seeing this as positive feedback. It regulates the cell wall synthesis so that turgor pressure returns to the desired value; hence, isn't it negative feedback?

      We apologize for this confusion. We have removed the term "positive feedback" in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, Ye et al. have developed a theoretical model of osmotic pressure adaptation by osmolyte production and wall synthesis.

      Strengths:

      They validate their model predictions of a rapid increase in growth rate on osmotic shock experimentally using fission yeast. The study has several interesting insights which are of interest to the wider community of cell size and mechanics.

      Weaknesses:

      Multiple aspects of this manuscript require addressing, in terms of clarity and consistency with previous literature. The specifics are listed as major and minor comments.

      Major comments:

      (1) The motivation for the work is weak and needs more clarity.

      We thank Reviewer 2 for this very helpful comment, which we believe has significantly improved our manuscript. We would like to clarify the two major motivations of our study. 

      First, we aim to construct a systems-level and coarse-grained model capable of elucidating the complex processes underlying microbial osmoresponse. By leveraging the separation of timescales associated with mechanical equilibrium, cell-wall synthesis regulation, and osmoregulation, our model facilitates in-depth analytical and numerical analysis of how these various processes interact during cellular adaptation. In particular, we demonstrate the key physiological functions of osmoregulation and cell-wall synthesis regulation.

      Second, we seek to apply this model to interpret the phenomenon of supergrowth observed in fission yeast Schizosaccharomyces pombe (Knapp et al., Cell Systems, 2019). This application addresses an essential challenge in experimental studies: exclusive knockout experiments can be difficult, and mechanistic interpretations of experimental observations are often lacking. Our theoretical framework offers a valuable tool for understanding such phenomena, contributing to the fundamental knowledge of microbial physiology and developing predictive models for microbial behavior under osmotic stress.

      In the revised manuscript, we have included a new paragraph at the end of the Discussion section to emphasize our motivations better:

      “In this work, we construct a systems-level and coarse-grained model capable of elucidating the complex processes underlying microbial osmoresponse. By leveraging the separation of timescales associated with mechanical equilibrium, cell-wall synthesis regulation, and osmoregulation, our model facilitates in-depth analytical and numerical analysis of how these various processes interact during cellular adaptation. In particular, we demonstrate the key physiological functions of osmoregulation and cell-wall synthesis regulation. We then apply this model to interpret the unusual phenomenon of supergrowth observed in fission yeast. This application addresses an essential challenge in experimental studies: exclusive knockout experiments can be difficult, and mechanistic interpretations of experimental observations are often lacking. Our theoretical framework offers a valuable tool for understanding such phenomena, contributing to the fundamental knowledge of microbial physiology and developing predictive models for microbial behavior under osmotic stress.”

      (2) The link between sections is very frequently missing. The authors directly address the problem that they are trying to solve without any motivation in the results section.

      We are grateful to Reviewer 2 for their valuable feedback. In the revised manuscript, we have included a new paragraph at the end of the Introduction section to outline the main content of each subsection in Results and the logical connections between them:

      “In the following “Results” section, we begin by outlining the primary assumptions and equations of our model in the subsection "Model Description," which includes four parts, each addressing one of the four phenomenological rules. Additional details can be found in Methods. We then proceed to the subsection “Steady states in constant environments”, where we employ our theoretical framework to analyze steady-state growth and examine how the growth rate varies with external osmolarity. In the “Transient dynamics after a constant osmotic shock” subsection, we investigate the time-dependent osmoresponse after a constant hyperosmotic and hypoosmotic shock. Finally, in “Comparison with experiments: supergrowth phenomena after osmotic oscillation”, we address the supergrowth phenomena observed in S. pombe, utilizing our model to elucidate these experimental observations.”

      (3) The parameters used in the models (symbols) need to be explained better to make the paper more readable.

      We apologize for this confusion. In the revised Supplementary Material, we have included an additional table (Table S2) to explain the meanings of the symbols employed in the model to help the reader better understand.

      (4) Throughout the paper, the authors keep switching between organisms that they are modelling. There needs to be some consistency in this aspect where they mention what organism they are trying to model, since some assumptions that they make may not be valid for both yeast as well as bacteria.

      We thank Reviewer 2 for this very helpful comment. We would like to clarify that our model is coarse-grained without including detailed molecular mechanisms; therefore, it presumably applies to various species of microorganisms. Indeed, the predicted steady-state growth curves derived from our model and the experimental data obtained from various organisms agree reasonably well (Figure 2A of the main text). 

      In the revised manuscript, we have explicitly emphasized the nature of our phenomenological model and its broad applicability in the fourth paragraph of the Introduction section:

      “We remark that our model is coarse-grained, without including detailed molecular mechanisms, and is therefore applicable across diverse microbial species. Notably, the predicted steady-state growth rate as a function of internal osmotic pressure from our model aligns well with experimental data from diverse organisms. This alignment allows us to quantify the sensitivities of translation speed and regulation of osmolyte-producing protein in response to intracellular density. Additionally, we demonstrate that osmoregulation and cellwall synthesis regulation enable cells to adapt to a wide range of external osmolarities and prevent plasmolysis. Our model also predicts a non-monotonic time dependence of growth rate and protein density as they approach steady-state values following a constant osmotic shock, in concert with experimental observations (Rojas et al., PNAS, 2014; Rojas et al., Cell systems, 2017). Moreover, we show that a supergrowth phase can arise following a sudden decrease in external osmolarity, driven by cell-wall synthesis regulation, either through the direct application of a hypoosmotic shock or the withdrawal of an oscillatory stimulus. Remarkably, the predicted amplitudes of supergrowth (i.e., growth rate peaks) quantitatively agree with multiple independent experimental measurements.”

      Furthermore, we have also included a comparison with a detailed molecular mechanism model in the third paragraph of the Discussion section:

      “We remark that our model is intrinsically a coarse-grained model with many molecular details regarding gene expression regulation neglected, which allows us to gain more analytical insights. In [Shen et al., iScience, 2023], the authors studied the responses to osmotic stress in glucose-limited environments and found that cells exhibited stronger osmotic gene expression response under glucose-limited conditions than under glucose-rich conditions. Using a computational model based on molecular mechanisms combined with experimental measurements, the authors demonstrated that in a glucose-limited environment, glycolysis intermediates were limited, which required cells to express more glycerol-production enzymes for stress adaptation. In the current version of our model, we do not account for the interaction between cell growth and osmolyte production; instead, we assume a constant fraction of ribosomes dedicated to translating ribosomal proteins. Our model can be further generalized to include the more complex interactions, including the coupling between biomass and osmolyte production, e.g., by allowing the fraction of ribosomes translating ((X<sub>r</supb) to depend on the translation strategy of the osmolyte-producing enzyme ((X<sub>a</sub>).”

      (5) The extent of universality of osmoregulation i.e the limitations are not very well highlighted.

      The osmoregulation mechanism described in our model primarily addresses changes in cytoplasmic osmolarity through the de-novo synthesis of compatible solutes, widely observed across bacteria, archaea, and eukaryotic microorganisms. This review article (GundeCimerman et al., FEMS microbiology reviews, 2018) provides an extensive summary and exploration of the primary compatible solutes utilized by organisms from all three domains of life, underscoring the prevalence of this osmoregulatory strategy. Furthermore, our model can be directly generalized to scenarios involving the direct uptake of osmolytes from the environment. One only needs to change the interpretation of the parameter, 𝑘<sub>𝑎</sub> in the production of osmolyte molecule, , from the synthesis rate to the uptake rate, and all the results are equally applicable. In the revised manuscript, we have briefly discussed this point in the subsection “Osmoregulation.”

      We agree with Reviewer 2 that our model's coarse-grained nature makes it broadly applicable to diverse microbial taxa; however, more specialized adaptations are beyond our model. In the revised manuscript, we have included a more detailed examination of the limitations inherent in our modeling approach in the second last paragraph of the Discussion section:

      “We remark several limitations of our current coarse-grained model. First, the high membrane tension that inhibits transmembrane flux of peptidoglycan precursors, leading to a growth inhibition before the supergrowth peak (Rojas et al., Cell systems 2017) is beyond our model. Second, in our current framework, the osmoregulation and cell-wall synthesis regulation rely on the instantaneous cellular states. However, microorganisms can exhibit memory effects to external stimuli by adapting to their temporal order of appearance (Mitchell et al., Nature 2009). Notably, in the osmoregulation of yeast, a short-term memory, facilitated by post-translational regulation of the trehalose metabolism pathway, and a long-term memory, orchestrated by transcription factors and mRNP granules, have been identified (Jiang et al., Science signaling 2020). Besides, our model does not account for the role of osmolyte export in osmoregulation (Tamas et al., Molecular microbiology, 1999) and the interaction between biomass and osmolyte production (Shen et al., Iscience 2023). Extending our model to include more realistic biological processes will be interesting.”

      (6) Line 198-200: It is not clear in the text what organisms the authors are writing about here. "Experiments suggested that the turgor pressure induce cell-wall synthesis, e.g., through mechanosensors on cell membrane [45, 46], by increasing the pore size of the peptidoglycan network [5], and by accelerating the moving velocity of the cell-wall synthesis machinery [31]". This however is untrue for bacteria as shown by the study (reference 22 is this paper: E. Rojas, J. A. Theriot, and K. C. Huang, Response of escherichia coli growth rate to osmotic shock, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 111, 7807 (2014).

      We thank Reviewer 2 for pointing out this very important issue and apologize for the confusion. References 45 and 46 (Dupres et al., Nature Chemical Biology 2009; Neeli-Venkata et al., Developmental Cell 2021) discuss how Wsc1 acts as a mechanosensor in S. pombe, detecting turgor pressure and activating pathways that reinforce the cell wall. Reference 5 (Typas et al., Cell 2010) explains the role of LpoA and LpoB, the two outer membrane lipoprotein regulators in E. coli, which modulate peptidoglycan synthesis in an extracellular manner. Reference 31 (Amir and Nelson, PNAS 2012) is a theoretical paper showing that turgor pressure may accelerate the moving velocity of the cell wall synthesis machinery in E. coli. In the revised manuscript, we have been more explicit about the organisms we refer to in the subsection “Cell-wall synthesis regulation.”

      Meanwhile, we agree with Reviewer 2 that cell wall synthesis may not be directly regulated by turgor pressure in E. coli (Rojas et al., PNAS 2014). We would like to clarify that this scenario is also included in our model corresponding to H<sub>cw</sub> = 0 (Eq. (7) in the main text): the turgor pressure does not affect the cell-wall synthesis. Therefore, the supergrowth phenomenon observed in S. pombe does not manifest under hypotonic stimulation in E. coli.

      In the revised manuscript, we have emphasized this point more explicitly in the third last paragraph of the Discussion section:

      “Reference 22 (Rojas et al., PNAS, 2014) showed that the expansion of E. coli cell wall is not directly regulated by turgor pressure, and this scenario is also included in our model as the case of H<sub>cw</sub> \= 0. According to our model, the supergrowth phase is absent if H<sub>cw</sub> = 0 (Figure S8), consistent with the absence of a growth rate peak after a hypoosmotic shock in the experiments of E. coli (Rojas et al., PNAS, 2014). Meanwhile, our predictions are consistent with the growth rate peak after a hypoosmotic shock observed for B. subtilis (Rojas et al., Cell systems, 2017).”

      (7) The time scale of reactions to hyperosmotic shocks does not agree with previous literature (reference 22). Therefore defining which organism you are looking at is important. Hence the statement " Because the timescale of the osmoresponse process, which is around hours (Figure 3B), is much longer than the timescale of the supergrowth phase, which is about 20 minutes, the turgor pressure at the growth rate peak can be well approximated by its immediate value after the shock." from line 447 does not seem to make sense. The authors need to address this.

      We apologize for this confusion. In the revised manuscript, we have clarified that the cited time scales are for the fission yeast S. pombe after Eq. (13) in the main text.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Inconsistency in nomenclature: On line 117, the equation reads V<sub>b</sub> = αm<sub>p where V<sub>b</sub> is the bound volume. Whereas bound volume has been referred to as V<sub>bd</sub> previously and in Figure 1.

      Answer: We apologize for this confusion. In our model, the total bound volumeV<sub>b</sub> comprises the volume of dry mass and bound water, V<sub>b</sub> \= V<sub>bd</sub> + V<sub>bw</sub>, where V<sub>bd</sub> is the volume occupied by dry mass and V<sub>bw</sub> is the volume of bound water. In the revised manuscript, we have added a brief discussion of this point in the caption of Figure 1.

      (2) Line 180: Please define 𝜌𝜌 for equation 4.

      We apologize for this confusion. In the text, the symbol 𝜌<sub>p</sub> denotes the mass of a given substance per unit volume of free water, and its unit is g/ml. The specific substance in consideration is indicated by a subscript. For example, 𝜌<sub>p</sub> in Eq. (4) represents the protein density, and 𝜌<sub>c</sub> stands for the critical protein density, above which intracellular chemical reactions cease according to Eq. (8) of the main text. In the revised manuscript, we have clarified the meaning of 𝜌<sub>c</sub> after Eq. (4).

      (3) Line 187: Equation 5 also needs to be explained better. Hence there is a need to be more specific while stating the assumptions.

      The elastic modulus 𝐺 defined in Eq. (5) of the main text is a measure of the cell wall's resistance to volume expansion. We assume a constant 𝐺 for simplicity, which is reasonable when the cell wall deformation is mild. In the revised manuscript, we have been more explicit about our assumptions regarding the turgor pressure in the subsection “Cell-wall synthesis regulation.”

      (4) Line 225: For a biological audience some elaboration on "glass transition" may be required- either as a reference to a review or to a 1 sentence statement of relevance.

      We appreciate Reviewer 2’s helpful comment. In the revised manuscript, we have added a brief introduction to the glass transition and a citation to a review paper (Hunter and Weeks, Rep. Prog. Phys. 2012) at the beginning of the subsection “Intracellular crowding.”

      (5) Line 247: "All growth rates in steady states of cell growth are the same: 𝜇<sub>𝑓</sub> \= 𝜇<sub>r</sub> \= 𝜇<sub>cw</sub>". The authors need to explain in a line or two why this is true. Since the processes are independent, it is safe to assume that all 𝜇's are constant, but it is not obvious why they should all be equal.

      We apologize for the lack of a clear explanation regarding the equality of steady-state growth rates in our previous manuscript. In the revised manuscript, we have added a brief explanation of the equality of the three growth rates at the beginning of the subsection “Steady states in constant environments”:

      “When cell growth reaches a steady state, the proportions of all components, including free water volume, cell mass, and cell wall volume, must be constant relative to the total cell volume to ensure homeostasis. Therefore, all growth rates in steady states of cell growth must be the same: 𝜇<sub>𝑓</sub> \= 𝜇<sub>r</sub> \= 𝜇<sub>cw</sub>.”

      (6) Line 264: "Because the typical doubling times of microorganisms are around hours, we can estimate 𝜇<sub>𝑓</sub>/k<sub>w</sub> ∼ 10 Pa [51, 52] ..." since the authors are generalizing for yeast and bacteria, specifically E. coli, this is not a valid assumption to make. There is also a need to explain the basis of "𝜇<sub>𝑓</sub>/k<sub>w</sub> ∼ 10 Pa".  

      We appreciate the need for clarity in the estimation and its implications. The rough estimation of 𝜇<sub>𝑓</sub>/k<sub>w</sub> ~ 10 Pa in the main text is given by:

      Here, the typical value of 𝜇<sub>𝑓</sub> (which equals to 𝜇<sub>r</sub> in steady state) is approximated by the inverse of the cell cycle, which is around hours. The estimation above is employed to justify the assumption that 𝜇<sub>𝑓</sub>/k<sub>w</sub> is much smaller than the cytoplasmic osmotic and turgor pressures, which can be several atmospheric pressures.

      For the case of E. coli, based on the experimental results from Boer et al. (Boer et al., Biochemistry 2011), an 800mM hypoosmotic shock leads to a rapid expansion of cell volume accomplished within a time scale of 0.1s, from which we obtain:

      .

      Therefore, our assumption that 𝜇<sub>𝑓</sub>/k<sub>w</sub> is much smaller than the cytoplasmic osmotic and turgor pressures is still valid. 

      In the revised manuscript, we have increased the estimation ranges to include the case of E. coli in the first paragraph of the subsection “Steady states in constant environments.”

      (7) Lines 279-283 need to be explained better.  

      We apologize for the confusion. In the revised manuscript, we have explained more explicitly the meaning of the growth curve in the second paragraph of the subsection “Steady states in constant environments”:

      “Intriguingly, the relationship between the normalized growth rate () and the normalized cytoplasmic osmotic pressure (), which we refer to as the growth curve in the following, has only one parameter 𝐻<sub>r</sub>/(𝐻<sub>𝑎</sub>) . Therefore, the growth curves of different organisms can be unified by a single formula, Eq. (10b), and different organisms may have different values of 𝐻<sub>r</sub>/(𝐻<sub>𝑎</sub> + 1).”

      (8) In Figure 3, an arrow representing the onset of osmotic shock would make the figure more intuitive to understand.

      We appreciate Reviewer 2 for this helpful suggestion. We have modified Figure 3 as suggested.

      (9) It is unclear to me if the growth rate 𝜇𝜇𝑟𝑟 is representative of the growth of total protein. This can be motivated better.

      We would like to clarify that the growth rate 𝜇𝜇𝑟𝑟 is defined as the changing rate of total protein mass divided by the total protein mass:

      Here, 𝑚<sub>𝑝,𝑟</sub> is the total mass of ribosomal proteins and 𝑘𝑘𝑟𝑟 is a constant proportional to the elongation speed of ribosome. The expression of 𝜇<sub>𝑟</sub> is a direct consequence of ribosomes being responsible for producing all proteins. In the revised manuscript, we have added more details in the introduction of the variable 𝜇<sub>𝑟</sub> in the last paragraph of the subsection “Cell growth”:

      “In this work, we assume that the dry-mass growth rate is proportional to the fraction of ribosomal proteins within the total proteome for simplicity, 𝜇<sub>𝑟</sub> \= 𝑘<sub>r</sub>𝑚<sub>𝑝,𝑟</sub>/𝑚<sub>𝑝</sub> \= 𝑘<sub>r</sub>𝜙<sub>𝑟</sub>. This assumption leverages the fact that ribosomes are responsible for producing all proteins. The proportionality coefficient 𝑘<sub>𝑟</sub> encapsulates the efficiency of ribosomal activity, being proportional to the elongation speed of the ribosome. We remark that 𝑘𝑘𝑟𝑟 is influenced by the crowding effect, which we address later.”

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      Reviewer #2:

      Line 295 – was the time post-infection, which varies considerably between groups and across samples, taken into consideration when comparison of response was between ChatCre mice (4-9 weeks post-infection) and WT mice (four to five weeks post-infection)?

      Thank you for your comment. We did not originally assess the effects of time post-injection on DREADD response. Generally, AAV transgene expression has been demonstrated to be long-term and stable in the CNS of mice.[1] However, there is some variation in the reporting time of peak transgene expression[2], and this may potentially impact our results.

      In investigating this issue further, we discovered an error in our reporting as we did have n = 1 wild-type mouse that underwent EMG recordings 62 days (~9 weeks) post-AAV injection. This has been corrected in the manuscript (lines 87-88).

      Addressing this question is challenging due to the uneven distribution of time points within the 4–9-week windows for each group. Essentially, there were two groups per cohort, one studied at 4-5 weeks and one at 8-9 weeks. More specifically:

      - Wild-type cohort: n = 10 animals were studied 28–33 days post-injection, and n = 1 at 62 days.

      - ChAT-Cre cohort: n = 4 animals were studied 28–30 days post-injection, and n = 5 at 56–59 days.

      We performed Pearson correlation analyses between time post-injection and diaphragm EMG response to DREADD activation (peak amplitude and area under the curve, AUC) for both cohorts (Author response image 1):

      - ChAT-Cre: No significant correlations were found (peak amplitude: r<sup>2</sup> = -0.117, r = -0.1492, p = 0.702, Figure 1a-b; AUC:r<sup>2</sup> = -0.0883, r = 0.2184, p = 0.572, Figure 1c-d).

      - Wild type: Initial analysis of all data showed significant correlations (peak amplitude:r<sup>2</sup> = 0.362, r = 0.6523, p = 0.0296, Figure 1a; AUC: r<sup>2</sup> = 0.347, r = 0.6424, p = 0.033, Figure 1c), suggesting a moderate positive correlation between time post-injection and EMG response. However, when the single 8–9-week wild-type mouse was excluded, these correlations were no longer significant (peak amplitude: r<sup>2</sup> = 0.172, r = 0.5142, p = 0.128, Figure 1b; AUC: r<sup>2</sup> = 0.23, r = 0.5614, p = 0.0913, Figure1d).

      Comparing wild-type and ChAT-Cre groups directly was unreliable due to the single wild-type mouse studied at the later time point. We attempted to model time post-injection as a continuous variable (i.e., exact days post-injection) using a restricted maximum likelihood mixed linear model in JMP; however, the analysis could not be performed because there were not sufficient overlapping time points between the two cohorts (i.e., not all days post-injection were represented in both groups). To mitigate this, we binned animals into two groups: 4–5 weeks and 8–9 weeks post-injection. This analysis returned a significant interaction between cohort and time post-injection (p = 0.0391), however there were no significant multiple comparisons upon Tukey post hoc test (i.e., p > 0.05).

      Based on these findings, we feel confident that time post-injection is unlikely to have a significant impact on diaphragm EMG response to DREADD activation in the ChAT-Cre cohort. However, in the wild-type cohort, it is difficult to draw definitive conclusions, as only one animal was studied at the 8–9-week time point. For similar reasons, it remains unclear whether the relationship between time post-AAV transduction and DREADD response differs between cohorts. Given the inconclusive nature of these results, we have elected not to include this analysis in the manuscript. Nevertheless, to ensure transparency, we have provided Author response image 1 below of peak amplitude and AUC plotted against time, allowing readers to evaluate the data independently.

      Author response image 1.

      Plots of diaphragm EMG peak amplitude (a-b) and area under the curve (c-d) vs. days post-AAV injection for wild-type (blue) and ChAT-Cre (orange) mice. Pearson correlation analyses were performed to assess the relationship between time post-AAV injection and diaphragm EMG DREADD response in wild-type and ChAT-Cre mouse cohorts. r<sup>2</sup>, r, and p-values are shown in each panel for both cohorts. Panels a and c display peak amplitude and AUC, respectively, including all animals. Panels b and d present the same variables with the n = 1 wild-type mouse at the 9-week time point excluded; ChAT-Cre data is unchanged between corresponding panels. Scatter points represent data from individual animals. Polynomial trendlines are displayed for each cohort with wild-type in blue and ChAT-Cre in orange.

      REFERENCES

      (1) Kim, J. Y., Grunke, S. D., Levites, Y., Golde, T. E. & Jankowsky, J. L. Intracerebroventricular viral injection of the neonatal mouse brain for persistent and widespread neuronal transduction. J Vis Exp, 51863 (2014). https://doi.org/10.3791/51863

      (2) Hollidge, B. S. et al. Kinetics and durability of transgene expression after intrastriatal injection of AAV9 vectors. Front Neurol 13, 1051559 (2022). https://doi.org/10.3389/fneur.2022.1051559


      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Response to reviewer’s public reviews:

      We chose the dose of J60 based on a prior publication that established that off-target effects were possible at relatively high doses[1]. The dose that we used (0.1 mg/kg) was 30-fold less than the dose that was reported in that paper to potentially have off-target responses (3 mg/kg). Further, Author response image 1 shows the results of experiments in which J60 was given to animals that did not have the excitatory DREADD expressed in the spinal cord. This includes a sample of mice (n = 2) and rats (n = 3), recorded from using the same diaphragm EMG procedure described in the manuscript. The figure shows that there was no consistent response to the J60 at 0.1 mg/kg in the “control experiment” in which the DREADD was not expressed in the spinal cord.

      Author response image 1.

      Diaphragm EMG response to J60 administrated to naïve rats and mice. Panel a-b show raw EMG values at baseline, following vehicle (saline) and J60 administration for the left and right hemidiaphragm. Panel c-d shows EMG values normalized to baseline. Neither One-way RM ANOVA (panel a-b) nor paired t-test (panel c-d) returned significant p values (p < 0.05).

      Response to specific reviewer comments:

      Reviewer #1:

      How old were the animals at the time of AAV injection, and in subsequent experiments?

      The wildtype cohort of mice were 7-9 weeks old at time of AAV injection and DREADD experiments took place 4-5 weeks after AAV injection. ChAT-Cre mice were 6-10 weeks old at time of AAV injection and DREADD experiments took place 4-9 weeks after AAV injection. ChAT-Cre rats were 2-5 months old at time of AAV spinal injection. These animals underwent plethysmography recordings 3-4 months post-AAV injection and subsequently phrenic nerve recording 3-8 weeks later. These details have been added to the Method section.

      How many mice were excluded from electrophysiology experiments due to deteriorating electrode contact?

      No mice were excluded from electrophysiology experiments due to deteriorating electrode contact. If you are referring to the n = 1 excluded ChAT-Cre mouse (line 368) this animal was excluded because it showed no histological evidence of DREADD expression (lines 200-206).

      What was the urethane dose?

      The urethane dose for phrenic nerve recordings was 2.1 g/kg. See methods section line 395.

      A graphical timeline of the experimental progression for plethysmography and electrophysiology studies would enhance clarity.

      A graphical timeline has been added. See Figure S6.

      Significance indicators in the figures would greatly enhance clarity. It is a little awkward to have to refer to supplemental tables to figure out statistical differences.

      Significance indicators have been added. See Figures 1, 2, 4, and 5

      In Figures 1, 2, and 5, individual data points should be shown, as in Fig 4.

      Thank you for this suggestion. We agree that, in general, it is best practice to scatter individual data points. However, when we drafted the new figures, it was apparent that including individual scatter points, in this case, created very “cluttered” figures that were very difficult to interpret.

      More detail regarding the plethysmography studies is needed. Was saline/J60 infused via a tail vein catheter? Were animals handled during the infusion? How long is the "IV" period? What volume of fluid was delivered?

      All IV infusions were delivered via a tail vein catheter. Animals were not handled during infusion nor at any point during the recording. An IV catheter was externalized via a port in the plethysmograph allowing for IV infusion without handling of the animal or opening the plethysmograph. The infusion period for both saline and J60 was standardized to 2 minutes. The volume of fluid of both saline and J60 was standardized to 0.6 mL. This information has been added to the methods section (lines 408-410, 415-16, 419-420).

      Reviewer #2:

      The abstract could be improved by briefly highlighting the rationale, scope, and novelty of the study - the intro does a great job of highlighting the scope of the study and the research questions.

      A brief explanation of the rationale, scope, and novelty of the study has been added to the abstract. See lines 2-8.

      Line 18, specifies that this was done under urethane anesthesia.

      This detail has been added to the abstract (line 20).

      The methods section should be moved to the end of the manuscript according to Journal policy.

      The methods section has been moved to the end of the manuscript.

      The authors mention the use of both female and male rats but it is not indicated if they tested for and observed any differences between sexes across experiments.

      We included the use of both male and female animals in this study to improve the generalizability of the results. However, we were not adequately powered for sex comparisons and therefore did not perform any statistical analysis to assess differences between sexes across experiments. Text has been added to the methods section (lines 534-537) to clarify.

      Line 40, since delivery of J60 was performed in both IV and IP, this general statement should be updated.

      This detail has been revised to include both IV and IP. See line 43.

      Line 42. "First, we determined if effective diaphragm activation requires focal DREADD expression targeting phrenic motor neurons, or if non-specific expression in the immediate vicinity of the phrenic motor nucleus would be sufficient...." I don't think that in the experiments with wild-type mice the authors can claim that they selectively targeted the cervical propriospinal network (in isolation from the motoneurons). Given the fact that the histological analysis did not quantify interneurons or motoneurons in the spinal cord, authors should be cautious in proposing which neuronal population is activated in the non-specific approach.

      We agree, and this was a poorly worded statement in our original text. We agree that wild-type DREADD expression was not limited to the cervical propriospinal networks but likely a mix of interneurons and motoneurons. The text has been edited to reflect that (see lines 56-60).

      AAV virus source is not described.

      All AAVs were obtained from the UF Powell Gene Therapy Center. Details of virus source and production have been added to the methods section. See lines 336-347.

      Line 108-125. Because the diaphragm EMG recordings are only described for mice here, I would suggest editing this methods section to clearly state mice instead of vaguely describing "animals" in the procedure.

      “Animals” has been changed to “mice” to avoid ambiguity.

      Line 120, add parenthesis.

      Parenthesis has been added.

      Line 126. Whole body plethysmography protocol. Three hypercapnic hypoxic challenges are a lot for a rat within a 3-hour recording session in freely behaving rats. Did the authors verify with control/ vehicle experiments that repeated challenges in the absence of J60 do not cause potentiation of the response? I understand that it is not possible to invert the order of the injections (due to likely long-term effects of J60) or it is too late to perform vehicle and J60 injections on different days, but controls for repeated challenges should be performed in this type of experiment, especially considering the great variability in the response observed in Figure 4 (in normoxic conditions).

      We did not conduct control experiments to assess the impact of repeated hypercapnic hypoxic challenges on the naïve response (i.e., in the absence of J60). However, our experimental protocol was designed such that each experimental period (i.e., post-vehicle or post-J60 infusion) was normalized to baseline recordings taken immediately prior to the vehicle or J60 infusion. While repeated exposure to hypercapnic hypoxic challenges may have altered respiratory output, we are confident that normalizing each experimental period to its respective baseline effectively captures the impact of DREADD activation on ventilation, independent of any potential potentiation that may have occurred due to gas challenge exposure. We have included raw values for all plethysmography outcomes (see Figure 4, panels a-c) to ensure full data transparency. Still, we believe that the baseline-normalized values more accurately reflect the impact of DREADD activation on the components of ventilation.

      Furthermore, why the response to the hypercapnic hypoxic challenges are not reported? These could be very interesting to determine the effects of DREADD stimulation on chemosensory responses and enhance the significance of the study.

      Response to the hypercapnic hypoxic challenges has been added to the manuscript. See Figure S3 and results section lines 162-167. Briefly, there were no statistically significant (p < 0.05) differences in tidal volume, respiratory rate, or minute ventilation between J60 vs sham condition during hypercapnic-hypoxic ventilatory challenges.

      Line 200 - what is the reason behind performing a qualitative analysis of mCherry in various quadrants? This limits the interpretation of the results. If the authors used Chat-cre rats, the virus should only be in Chat+ MN. Knowing how selective the virus is, and whether its expression was selective for Phrenic MN versus other MN pools, could address several technical questions.

      We agree that detailed quantification of expression by motoneuron pool would be of value in future work.  However, for these initial proof-of-concept experiments, we performed the quadrant-based qualitative analysis of mCherry expression to provide a simple comparison of mCherry expression between groups (i.e., ChAT-Cre vs. wildtype mice). This analysis allowed us to: 1) show the reader that each animal included in the study showed evidence of mCherry expression and 2) give the reader an idea of patterns of mCherry expression throughout the mid-cervical spinal cord. Additionally, it is important to note that while ChAT is a marker of motoneurons some populations of interneurons also express ChAT(2-4).

      Given the increased values of Dia EMG AUC and no changes in respiratory rate, did the authors determine if there was a change in the inspiratory time with J60 administration?

      We did not assess inspiratory time.

      High death rate in DREADD WT mice - was histological analysis performed on these mice? Could it be due to the large volume injected into the spinal cord that affects not only descending pathways but also ascending ones? Or caused by neuronal death due to the large volume of viral solution in injected in mice.

      Histological analysis was performed on these animals to assess mCherry expression only (i.e., no staining for NeuN or other markers was performed). While the reviewer's speculations are reasonable, we feel these reasons are unlikely to explain the death rate in DREADD WT mice as ChAT-Cre mice received the same volume injected into their spine and lived up until and during diaphragm EMG recordings. Additionally, WT mice lived for 4-5 weeks post-injection which would be past the acute phase that a large immune response to the viral dose would have occurred.

      Line 299-304. Can you please clarify whether these rats were tested under anesthesia?

      These rats were assessed under anesthesia. This detail has been added (line 146).

      Given some of the unexpected results on cardiovascular parameters in urethane anesthetized rats, did the authors test the effects of J60 in the absence of AAV construct infection?

      A small cohort (n = 2) of urethane anesthetized naïve wildtype rats were given the J60 ligand (IV, 0.1 mg/kg dose). We did observe a sudden drop in blood pressure after J60 administration that was sustained for the duration of the recording. One animal showed a 12% decrease in mean arterial blood pressure following J60 administration while the other showed a 35% decrease. Thus, it does appear that in this preparation the J60 ligand is producing a drop in arterial blood pressure.

      Line 393. I believe this comment is referred to the intrapleural and diaphragmatic injection. Maybe this should clarified in the sentence.

      This sentence has been revised for clarity (see lines 248-250).

      Figures 1 and 2. It would be informative to show raw traces of the Diaphragm EMG to demonstrate the increase in tonic EMG. It is not possible to determine that from the integrated traces in Figures 1A and B.

      Thank you for bringing up this concern. While the mean data in Figures 1F and 2F do indicate that, on average, animals had tonic diaphragm EMG responses to DREADD activation, the examples given in Figures 1A and 2A show minimal responses. This makes it difficult to fully appreciate the tonic response from those particular traces. However, clear tonic activity can be appreciated from Figures 5A and S2. In these figures, tonic activity is evident from the integrated EMG signals, presenting as a sustained increase in baseline activity between bursts—essentially an upward shift from the zero point.

      References

      (1) Van Savage, J. & Avegno, E. M. High dose administration of DREADD agonist JHU37160 produces increases in anxiety-like behavior in male rats. Behav Brain Res 452, 114553 (2023). https://doi.org/10.1016/j.bbr.2023.114553

      (2) Mesnage, B. et al. Morphological and functional characterization of cholinergic interneurons in the dorsal horn of the mouse spinal cord. J Comp Neurol 519, 3139-3158 (2011). https://doi.org/10.1002/cne.22668

      (3) Gotts, J., Atkinson, L., Yanagawa, Y., Deuchars, J. & Deuchars, S. A. Co-expression of GAD67 and choline acetyltransferase in neurons in the mouse spinal cord: A focus on lamina X. Brain Res 1646, 570-579 (2016). https://doi.org/10.1016/j.brainres.2016.07.001

      (4) Alkaslasi, M. R. et al. Single nucleus RNA-sequencing defines unexpected diversity of cholinergic neuron types in the adult mouse spinal cord. Nat Commun 12, 2471 (2021). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-021-22691-2

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, Eaton et al. examine the regulation of transcription directionality using a powerful genomic approach (more about the methodology below). Their data challenge the notion that the polyadenylation signal-reading Cleavage and Polyadenylation (CPA) complex is responsible for controlling promoter directionality by terminating antisense transcription. Namely, depletion of the required CPA factor RBBP6 has little effect on antisense transcription measured by POINT. They find instead that initiation is intrinsically preferential in the sense direction and additionally maintained by the activities of an alternative processing complex called Integrator, together with the kinase CDK9. In the presence of CDK9 activity, depletion of Integrator endoribonuclease INTS11 leads to globally increased transcription in the antisense direction, and minor effects in the sense direction. However, CDK9 inhibition reveals that sense transcription is also sensitive to INS11 depletion. The authors suggest that CDK9 activity is stronger in the sense direction, preventing INTS11-mediated premature termination of sense transcrpts.

      Strengths:

      The combination of acute depletion of the studied factors using degron approaches (important to limit possible secondary effects), together with novel and very sensitive nascent transcriptomics methods POINT and sPOINT is very powerful. The applied spike-in normalization means the analysis is more rigorous than most. Using this methodology allowed the authors to revisit the interesting question of how promoter/transcription directionality is determined.

      The data quality appears very good and the fact that both global analysis as well as numerous gene-specific examples are shown makes it convincing.

      The manuscript is well written and hence a pleasure to read.

      We appreciate this positive assessment.

      Weaknesses:

      I am slightly worried about the reproducibility of the data - it is unclear to me from the manuscript if and which experiments were performed in replicate (lack of table with genomic experiments and GEO access, mentioned in more detail in below recommendations to authors), and the methods could be more detailed.

      All sequencing data was deposited with GEO. Multiple biological replicates were performed for each sequencing experiment.  Bigwig files are presented as a table in the GEO submissions. This data has now been made public.

      A separate discussion section would be useful, particularly since the data provided challenge some concepts in the field. How do the authors interpret U1 data from the Dreyfuss lab in light of their results? How about the known PAS-density directionality bias (more PAS present in antisense direction than in sense) - could the differential PAS density be still relevant to transcription directionality?

      As suggested, we have expanded our discussion to relate our findings to existing data. We think the results from the Dreyfuss lab are very important and highlight the role of U1 snRNA in enforcing transcriptional elongation.  It does this in part by shielding PAS sequences.  Recent work from our lab also shows that U1 snRNA opposes the Restrictor complex and PNUTS, which otherwise suppress transcription (Estell et al., Mol Cell 2023).  Most recently, the Adelman lab has demonstrated that U1 snRNA generally enhances transcription elongation (Mimoso and Adelman., Mol Cell 2023).  Our work does not challenge and is not inconsistent with these studies.

      The role of U1 in opposing PAS-dependent termination inspired the idea that antisense transcriptional termination may utilise PASs.  This was because such regions are rich in AAUAAA and comparatively poor in U1 binding sites. However, our RBBP6 depletion and POINT-seq data suggest that PAS-dependent termination is uncommon in the antisense direction. As such, other mechanisms suppress antisense transcription and influence promoter directionality. In our paper, we propose a major role for the Integrator complex.

      We do not completely rule out antisense PAS activity and discuss the prior work that identified polyadenylated antisense transcripts. Nevertheless, this was detected by oligo-dT primed RT-PCR/Northern blotting, which cannot determine the fraction of non-polyadenylated RNA that could result from PAS-independent termination (e.g. by Integrator).  To do that requires an analysis of total nascent transcription as achieved by our POINT-seq.  Based on these experiments, Integrator depletion has a greater impact on antisense transcription than RBBP6 depletion. 

      I find that the provided evidence for promoter directionality to be for the most part due to preferential initiation in the sense direction should be stressed more. This is in my eyes the strongest effect and is somehow brushed under the rug.

      We agree that this is an important finding and incorporated it into the title and abstract.  As the reviewer recommends, we now highlight it further in the new discussion.

      References 12-17 report an effect of Integrator on 5' of protein-coding genes, while data in Figure 2 appears contradictory. Then, experiments in Figure 4 show a global effect of INST11 depletion on promoter-proximal sense transcription. In my opinion, data from the 2.5h time-point of depletion should be shown alongside 1.5h in Figure 2 so that it is clear that the authors found an effect similar to the above references. I find the current presentation somehow misleading.

      We are grateful for this suggestion and present new analyses demonstrating that our experiment in Figure 2 concurs with previous findings (Supplemental Figures 2A and B). Our original heatmap (Figure 2E) shows a very strong and general antisense effect of INTS11 loss. On the same scale, the effects in the sense direction are not as apparent, which is also the case using metaplots.  New supplemental figure 2A now shows sense transcription from this experiment in isolation and on a lower scale, demonstrating that a subset of genes shows promoter-proximal increases in transcription following INTS11 depletion.  This is smaller and less general than the antisense effect but consistent with previous findings.  Indeed, our new analysis in supplemental figure 2B shows that affected protein-coding genes are lowly expressed, in line with Hu et al., Mol Cell 2023. This explains why a sense effect is not as apparent by metaplot, for which highly expressed genes contribute the most signal.

      As a result of our analyses, we are confident that the apparently larger effect at the 2.5hr timepoint (Figure 4) that we initially reported is due to experimental variability and not greater effects of extended INTS11 depletion. Overlaying the 1.5h and 2.5h datasets (Supplemental Figure 4B) revealed a similar number of affected protein-coding genes with a strong (83%) overlap between the affected genes.  To support this, we performed qPCR on four affected protein-coding transcripts which revealed no significant difference in the level of INTS11 effect after 2.5h vs 1.5h (Supplemental Figure 4C).

      We now present data for merged replicates in Figures 2 and 4 which reveal very similar average profiles for -INTS11 vs +INTS11 at both timepoints. Overall, we believe that we have resolved this discrepancy by showing that it amounts to experimental variability and because the most acutely affected protein-coding genes are lowly expressed. As detailed above, we show this in multiple ways (and validate by qPCR) We have revised the text accordingly and removed our original speculation that differences reflected the timeframe of INTS11 loss.

      Conclusion/assessment:

      This important work substantially advances our understanding of the mechanisms governing the directionality of human promoters. The evidence supporting the claims of the authors is compelling, with among others the use of advanced nascent transcriptomics including spike-in normalization controls and acute protein depletion using degron approaches.

      In my opinion, the authors' conclusions are in general well supported.

      Not only the manuscript but also the data generated will be useful to the wide community of researchers studying transcriptional regulation. Also, the POINT-derived novel sPOINT method described here is very valuable and can positively impact work in the field.

      We are grateful for the reviewers' positive assessment of our study.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Eaton and colleagues use targeted protein degradation coupled with nascent transcription mapping to highlight a role for the integrator component INST11 in terminating antisense transcription. They find that upon inhibition of CDK9, INST11 can terminate both antisense and sense transcription - leading to a model whereby INST11 can terminate antisense transcription and the activity of CDK9 protects sense transcription from INST11-mediated termination. They further develop a new method called sPOINT which selectively amplifies nascent 5' capped RNAs and find that transcription initiation is more efficient in the sense direction than in the antisense direction. This is an excellent paper that uses elegant experimental design and innovative technologies to uncover a novel regulatory step in the control of transcriptional directionality.

      Strengths:

      One of the major strengths of this work is that the authors endogenously tag two of their proteins of interest - RBBP6 and INST11. This tag allows them to rapidly degrade these proteins - increasing the likelihood that any effects they see are primary effects of protein depletion rather than secondary effects. Another strength of this work is that the authors immunoprecipitate RNAPII and sequence extracted full-length RNA (POINT-seq) allowing them to map nascent transcription. A technical advance from this work is the development of sPOINT which allows the selective amplification of 5' capped RNAs < 150 nucleotides, allowing the direction of transcription initiation to be resolved.

      We appreciate this positive assessment.

      Weaknesses:

      While the authors provide strong evidence that INST11 and CDK9 play important roles in determining promoter directionality, their data suggests that when INST11 is degraded and CDK9 is inhibited there remains a bias in favour of sense transcription (Figures 4B and C). This suggests that there are other unknown factors that promote sense transcription over antisense transcription and future work could look to identify these.

      We agree that other (so far, unknown) factors promote sense transcription over antisense, which was demonstrated by our short POINT.  We have provided an expanded discussion on this in the revision. In our opinion, demonstrating that sense transcription is driven by preferential initiation in that direction is a key finding and we agree that the identification of the underlying mechanism constitutes an interesting avenue for future study.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Using a protein degradation approach, Eaton et al show that INST11 can terminate the sense and anti-sense transcription but higher activity of CDK9 in the sense direction protects it from INS11-dependent termination. They developed sPOINT-seq that detects nascent 5'-capped RNA. The technique allowed them to reveal robust transcription initiation of sense-RNA as compared to anti-sense.

      Strengths:

      The strength of the paper is the acute degradation of proteins, eliminating the off-target effects. Further, the paper uses elegant approaches such as POINT and sPOINT-seq to measure nascent RNA and 5'-capped short RNA. Together, the combination of these three allowed the authors to make clean interpretations of data.

      We appreciate this positive assessment.

      Weaknesses:

      While the manuscript is well written, the details on the panel are not sufficient. The methods could be elaborated to aid understanding. Additional discussion on how the authors' findings contradict the existing model of anti-sense transcription termination should be added.

      We have added more detail to the figure panels, which we hope will help readers to navigate the paper more easily. Specifically, the assay employed for each experiment is indicated in each figure panel. As requested, we provide a new and separate discussion section in the revision.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Congratulations on this important piece of work!

      Some specific suggestions.

      MAJOR

      -The data are not available (Accession "GSE243266" is currently private and is scheduled to be released on Sep 01, 2026.) This should be corrected and as a minimum, the raw sequencing files as well as the spike-in scaled bigwig files should be provided in GEO.

      We have made the data public. Raw and bigwig files are provided as part of the GEO upload.

      MINOR

      - It would be useful for readers if you could include catalog numbers of the reagents used in the study.

      We have included this information in our revision.

      - A table in experimental procedures summarizing the genomic experiments performed in this study as well as published ones reanalyzed here would be helpful.

      This is now provided as part of the resources table.

      - It would be easier for reviewers to evaluate the manuscript if the figure legends were included together with the figures on one page. This is now allowed by most journals.

      We have used this formatting in the revision.

      - Providing some captions for the results sections would be helpful.

      We have included subheadings as suggested.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Generally, I would suggest writing the experiment-type above panels where it is not immediately obvious what they are so a reader can appreciate the figures without referencing the legend. E.g. write POINT-seq on Figure 1B just to make it obvious to someone looking at the figures what methodology they are looking at. Likewise, you could write RNAPII ChIP-seq for Supplementary Figures 3D and 3E.

      We have carried out this recommendation.

      Can a y-axis be indicated on POINT-seq genome browser tracks? This could make them easier to interpret.

      Y-axis scales are provided as RPKM as stated in the figure legends.

      The authors could address/speculate in the text why there is less POINT-seq signal for the antisense transcript in the treatment condition in Figure 1B? Or could consider including a different example locus where this is not the case for clarity.

      Acute depletion of poly(A) factors (like RBBP6) results in a strong read-through beyond the poly(A) signal of protein-coding genes as Figure 1 shows.  However, it also causes a reduction in transcription levels, which can be seen in the figure and is correctly noted by the reviewer in this comment.  We see this with other poly(A) factor depletions (e.g. CPSF73 and CPSF30 – Eaton et al., 2020 and Estell et al., 2021) and other labs have observed this too (e.g for CPSF73-dTAG depletion (Cugusi et al., Mol Cell 2022)).  Plausible reasons include a limited pool of free RNAPII due to impaired transcriptional termination or limited nucleotide availability due to their incorporation within long read-through transcripts. For these reasons, we have retained the example in Figure 1B as a typical representation of the effect. Moreover, the heatmap in Figure 1D fairly represents the spectrum of effects following RBBP6 loss – highlighting the strong read-through beyond poly(A) signals and the marginal antisense effects.

      "The established effect of INTS11 at snRNAs was detected in our POINT-seq data and demonstrates the efficacy of this approach (Figure 2B)." The authors could explain this point more clearly in the text and describe the data - e.g. As expected, depletion of INTS11 leads to increased POINT-seq signal at the 3' end of snRNAs, consistent with defects in transcriptional termination. This is highlighted by the RNU5A-1 and RNU5B-1 loci (Figure 2B).

      We agree and have added more context to clarify this.

      I would suggest adjusting the scale of the heatmap in Figure 2E - I think it would be easier to interpret if the value of 0 was white - with >0 a gradient of orange and <0 a gradient of blue (as is done in Figure 1C). I think making this change would make the point as written in the text clearer i.e. "heatmap analysis demonstrates the dominant impact of INTS11 on antisense versus sense transcription at most promoters (Figure 2E)." I'm assuming most of the sense transcription would be white (more clearly unchanging) when the scale is adjusted.

      We agree and have done this. The reviewer is correct that most sense transcription is unchanged by INTS11 loss.  However, as we alluded to in the original submission, a subset of transcripts shows a promoter-proximal increase after INTS11 depletion. We have expanded the analyses of this effect (see responses to other comments) but stress that it is neither as general nor as large as the antisense effect.

      The authors make the point that there is mildly increased transcription over the 5' end of some genes upon INST11 depletion and show a track (Supplementary Fig 2A). It is not immediately obvious from the presentation of the meta-analysis in Figure 2D how generalisable this statement is. Perhaps the size of the panel or thickness of the lines in Figure 2D could be adjusted so that the peak of the control (in blue) could be seen. Perhaps an arrow indicating the peak could be added? I'm assuming the peak at the TSS is slightly lower in the control compared to INST11 depletion based on the authors' statement.

      We have provided multiple new analyses of this data to highlight where there are promoter-proximal effects of INTS11 loss in the sense direction.  Please see our response to the public review of reviewer 1 and new supplemental figures 2A, 2B, 4A and 4B which highlight the sense transcription increased in the absence of INTS11.

      The authors label Figure 4 "Promoters lose their directionality when CDK9 is inhibited" - but in INST11 depleted cells treated with CDK9i they find that there still is a bias towards sense transcription. Suggested edit "Some promoter directionality is lost when CDK9 is inhibited" or similar.

      We agree and have made this change.

      The authors conclude that INTS11-mediated effects are the result of perturbation of the catalytic activities of Integrator, the authors should perform rescue experiments with the catalytically dead E203Q-INTS11 mutant.

      This is a very good suggestion and something we had intended to pursue.  However, as we will describe below (and shown in Supplemental Figure 4G), there were confounding issues with this experiment.

      The E203Q mutant of INTS11 is widely used in the literature to test for catalytic functions of INTS11.  However, we have found that this mutation impairs the ability of INTS11 to bind other Integrator modules in cells. Based on co-immunoprecipitation of flag-tagged WT and E203Q derivatives, INTS1 (backbone module), 10 (tail module), and 8 (phosphatase module) all show reduced binding to E203Q vs. WT. Because E203Q INTS11 is defective in forming Integrator complexes, rescue experiments might not fully distinguish the effects of INTS11 activity from those caused by defects in complex assembly. While this may at first seem unexpected, in the analogous 3’ end processing complex, catalytic mutants of CPSF73 (which is highly related to INTS11) negatively affect its interaction with other complex members (Kolev and Steitz, EMBO Reports 2005).

      We hypothesise that INTS11 activity is most likely involved in attenuating promoter-proximal transcription, but we cannot formally rule out other explanations and discuss this in our revision. Regardless of how INTS11 attenuates transcription, our main conclusion is on its requirement to terminate antisense transcription whether this involves its cleavage activity or not.

      The authors suggest that CDK9 modulates INTS11 activity/assembly and suggest this may be related to SPT5. Is there an effect of CDK9 inhibition on the snRNA's highlighted in Figure 2B?

      We believe that snRNAs are different from protein-coding genes concerning CDK9 function. Shona Murphy’s lab previously showed that, unlike protein-coding genes, snRNA transcription is insensitive to CDK9 inhibition, and that snRNA processing is impaired by CDK9 inhibition (Medlin et al., EMBO 2003 and EMBO 2005).  We reproduce these findings by metaanalysis of 15 highly expressed and well-separated snRNAs and by qRT-PCR of unprocessed RNU1-1, RNU5A-1 and RNU7-1 snRNA following CDK9 inhibition. We observe snRNA read-through by POINT-seq following INTS11 loss whether CDK9 is inhibited or not (left panel, below). Note the higher TES proximal signal in CDK9i conditions, which likely reflects the accumulation of unprocessed snRNA as validated by qPCR for three example snRNAs (right panel, below).

      Author response image 1.

      For Figure 4, would similar results be observed using inhibitors targeting other transcriptional CDKs such as CDK7,12/13?

      In response to this suggestion, we analysed four selected protein-coding transcripts (the same 4 that we used to validate the CDK9i results) by qRT-PCR in a background of CDK7 inhibition using the THZ2 compound (new Supplemental Figure 4E).  THZ2 suppresses transcription from these genes as expected.  Interestingly, expression is restored by co-depleting Integrator, recapitulating our findings with CDK9 inhibition.  As CDK7 is the CDK-activating kinase for CDK9, its inhibition will also inhibit CDK9 so THZ2 may simply hit this pathway upstream of where CDK9 inhibitors.  Second, CDK7 may independently shield transcription from INTS11.  We allude to both interesting possibilities.

      What happens to the phosphorylation state of anti-sense engaged RNAPII when INTS11 is acutely depleted and/or CDK9 is inhibited? This could be measured by including Ser5 and Ser2 antibodies in the sPOINT-seq assay and complemented with Western Blot analysis.

      We have performed the western blot for Ser5 and Ser2 phosphorylation as suggested.  Both signals are mildly enhanced by INTS11 loss, which is consistent with generally increased transcription.  Ser2p is strongly reduced by CDK9 inhibition, which is consistent with the loss of nascent transcription in this condition.  Interestingly, both modifications are partly recovered when INTS11 is depleted in conjunction with CDK9 inhibition. This is consistent with the effects that we see on POINT-seq and shows that the recovered transcription is associated with some phosphorylation of RNAPII CTD.  This presumably reflects the action(s) of kinases that can act redundantly with CDK9.

      We have not performed POINT-seq with Ser5p and Ser2p antibodies under these various conditions.  Our rationale is that our existing data uses an antibody that captures all RNAPII (regardless of its phosphorylation status), which we feel most comprehensively assays transcription in either direction. Moreover, the lab of Fei Chen (Hu et al., Mol Cell 2023) recently published Ser5p and Ser2p ChIP-seq following INTS11 loss. By ChIP-seq, they observe a bigger increase in antisense RNAPII occupancy vs. sense providing independent and orthogonal support for our POINT-seq data.  Interestingly, this antisense increase is not paralleled by proportional increases in Ser5p or Ser2p signals.  This suggests that the unattenuated antisense transcription resulting from INTS11 loss does not have high Ser5p or Ser2p.  Since CDK7 and 9 are major Ser5 and 2 kinases, this supports our model that their activity is less prevalent for antisense transcription.  We now discuss these data in our revision.   

      The HIV reporter RNA experiments should be performed with the CDK9 inhibitor added to the experimental conditions. Presumably CDK9 inhibition would result in no upregulation of the reporter upon addition of TAT and/or dTAG. Perhaps the amount of TAT should be reduced to still have a dynamic window in which changes can be detected. It is possible that reporter activation is simply at a maximum. Can anti-sense transcription be measured from the reporter?

      We have performed the requested CDK9 inhibitor experiment to confirm that TAT-activated transcription from the HIV promoter is CDK9-dependent (new supplemental figure 4F).  Consistent with previous literature on HIV transcription, CDK9 inhibition attenuates TAT-activated transcription.  Importantly, and in line with our other experiments, depletion of INTS11 results in significant restoration of transcription from the HIV promoter when CDK9 is inhibited. Thus, TAT-activated transcription is CDK9-dependent and, as for endogenous genes, CDK9 prevents attenuation by INTS11.

      While TAT-activated transcription is high, we do not think that the plasmid is saturated. When considering this question, we revisited previous experiments using this system to study RNA processing (Dye et al., Mol Cell 1999, Cell 2001, Mol Cell 2006). In these cases, mutations in splice sites or polyadenylation sites have a strong effect on RNA processing and transcription around HIV reporter plasmids. Effects on transcription and RNA processing are; therefore, apparent in the appropriate context. In contrast, we find that the complete elimination of INTS11 has no impact on RNA output from the HIV reporter. Our original experiment assessing the impact of INTS11 loss in +TAT conditions used total RNA.  One possibility is that this allows non-nascent RNA to accumulate which might confound our interpretation of INTS11 effects on ongoing transcription.  However, the new experiment described in the paragraph above was performed on chromatin-associated (nascent) RNA to rule this out.  This again shows no impact of INTS11 loss on HIV promoter-derived transcription in the presence of TAT.

      To our knowledge, antisense transcription is not routinely assayed from plasmids. They generally employ very strong promoters (e.g. CMV, HIV) to drive sense transcription.  Crucially, their circular nature means that RNAPII going around the plasmid could interfere with antisense transcription coming the other way which does not happen in a linear genomic context. This is why we restricted our use of plasmids to looking at the effects of stimulated CDK9 recruitment (via TAT) on transcription rather than promoter directionality.   

      The authors should clearly state how many replicates were performed for the genomics experiments. Ideally, a signal should be quantified and compared statistically rather than relying on average profiles only.

      We have stated the replicate numbers for sequencing experiments in the relevant figure legends. All sequencing experiments were performed in at least two biological replicates, but often three. In addition, we validated their key conclusions by qPCR or with orthogonal sequencing approaches.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The authors provide strong evidence in support of their claims.

      ChIP-seq of pol2S5 and S2 upon INST11 and CDK9 inhibition will strengthen the observation that transcription in the sense direction is more efficient.

      We view the analysis of total RNAPII as the most unbiased way of establishing how much RNAPII is going one way or the other. Importantly, ChIP-seq was very recently performed for Ser2p and Ser5p RNAPII derivatives in the lab of Fei Chen (Hu et al., Mol Cell 2023). Their data shows that loss of INTS11 increases the occupancy of total RNAPII in the antisense direction more than in the sense direction, which is consistent with our finding. Interestingly, the increased antisense RNAPII was not paralleled with an increase in Ser2p or Ser5p. This suggests that, following INTS11 loss, the unattenuated antisense transcription is not associated with full/normal Ser2p or Ser5p. These modifications are normally established by CDK7 and 9; therefore, this published ChIP-seq suggests that they are not fully active on antisense transcription when INTS11 is lost. This supports our overall model that CDK9 (and potentially CDK7 as suggested for a small number of genes in new Supplemental Figure 4E) is more active in the sense direction to prevent INTS11-dependent attenuation. We now discuss these data in our revision.

      In Supplementary Figure 2, the eRNA expression increases upon INST11 degradation, I wonder if the effects of this will be appreciated on cognate promoters? Can the authors test some enhancer:promoter pairs?

      We noticed that some genes (e.g. MYC) that are regulated by enhancers show reduced transcription in the absence of INTS11. Whilst this could suggest a correlation, the transcription of other genes (e.g. ACTB and GAPDH) is also reduced by INTS11 loss although they are not regulated by enhancers.  A detailed and extensive analysis would be required to establish any link between INTS11-regulated enhancer transcription and the transcription of genes from their cognate promoters.  We agree that this would be interesting, but it seems beyond the scope of our short report on promoter directionality.

      Line 111, meta plot was done of 1316 genes. Details on this number should be provided. Overall, the details of methods and analysis need improvement. The layout of panels and labelling on graphs can be improved.

      We have now explained the 1316 gene set.  In essence, these are the genes separated from an expressed neighbour by at least 10kb.  This distance was selected because depletion of RBBP6 induces extensive read-through transcription beyond the polyadenylation site of protein-coding genes.  To avoid including genes affected by transcriptional read-through from nearby transcription units we selected those with a 10kb gap between them. This was the only selection criteria so is unlikely to induce any unintended biases. Finally, we have added more information to the figure panels and their legends, which we hope will make our manuscript more accessible.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary of the work: In this work, Fruchard et. al. study the enzyme Tgt and how it modifies guanine in tRNAs to queuosine (Q), essential for Vibrio cholerae's growth under aminoglycoside stress. Q's role in codon decoding efficiency and its proteomic effects during antibiotic exposure is examined, revealing Q modification impacts tyrosine codon decoding and influences RsxA translation, affecting the SoxR oxidative stress response. The research proposes Q modification's regulation under environmental cues reprograms the translation of genes with tyrosine codon bias, including DNA repair factors, crucial for bacterial antibiotic response.

      The experiments are well-designed and conducted and the conclusions, for the most part, are well supported by the data. However, a few clarifications will significantly strengthen the manuscript.

      Thank you.

      Major:

      Figure S4 A-D. These growth curves are important data and should be presented in the main figures. Moreover, given that it is not possible to make a rsxA mutant, I wonder if it would be possible to connect rsx and tgt using the following experiment: expression of tgt results in resistance to TOB (in B), while expression of only rsx lower resistance to TOB (in D). Then simultaneous overexpression of both tgt/rsx in the WT strain should have either no effect on TOB resistance or increased resistance, relative to the WT. Perhaps the authors have done this, and if so, the data should be included as it will significantly strengthen their model.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion, we have tried to overexpress both tgt and rsxA simultaneously. However, this appears to be toxic as cells form small colonies and cannot grow well in liquid. We think that the presence of 2 plasmids and corresponding selection antibiotics amplify the toxicity of overexpressing rsxA, and even tgt. In fact, it can be seen that tgt overexpression in WT is already slightly deleterious, in the absence of tobramycin (figure 1B).

      Figure S4 - Is there a rationale for why it is possible to make rsx mutants in E. coli, but not in V. cholerae? For example, does E. coli have a second gene/protein that is redundant in function to rsxA, while V. cholerae does not? I think your data hint at this, since in the right panel growth data, your double mutant does not fully rescue back to rsx single mutant levels, suggesting another factor in tgt mutant also acts to lower resistance to TOB. If so, perhaps a line or two in text will be helpful for readers.

      This point raised by the referee is an interesting one that we have also asked ourselves at multiple occasions. In fact, the Rsx operon is linked with oxidative stress and respiration. Vibrio cholerae and E. coli show differences on genes involved in these pathways. V. cholerae lacks the cyo/nuo respiratory complex genes, and does not encode a Suf operon. Moreover, deletion of the anaerobic respiration Frd pathway leads to strong decrease of V. cholerae growth even in aerobic conditions. (10.1128/spectrum.01730-23). We have previously also generally seen differences between the 2 species in response to stress (10.1128/AAC.01549-10) and the way they deal with ROS (10.1371/journal.pgen.1003421). Therefore, we think that the fact that rsx is essential in V. cholerae and not E. coli could either be due to the presence of an additional redundant pathway in E. coli as suggested by the referee, or to more general differences in respiration and treatment of ROS. We thank the referee for highlighting this and we have now included a comment about this in the manuscript.

      - For growth curves in Figure 2 and relative comparisons like in Figure 5D and Figure S4 (and others in the paper), statistics and error bars, along with replicate information should be provided.

      We had mentioned this in the methods section, we have now added the specific information also on figure legends.

      - Figure 6A - Is the transcript fold change in linear or log? If linear, then tgt expression should not be classified as being upregulated in TOB. It is barely up by ~2-fold with TOB- 0.6....which is a mild phenotype, at best.

      We think that 2-fold change of tgt expression can be sufficient to lead to changes in tRNA modification levels. We agree that this is a mild induction, we have thus changed “increase” to “mildly increase” in the results.  

      - Line 779- 780: "This indicates that sub-MIC TOB possibly induces tgt expression through the stringent response activation." To me, the data presented in this figure, do not support this statement. The experiment is indirect.

      We agree, we rephrased: “Tobramycin may induces tgt expression through stringent response activation or through an independent pathway. “

      - Figure 3B and D. - These samples only have tobramycin, correct? The legend says both carbenicillin and tobramycin.

      The legend is correct, samples also have carbenicillin because we are testing here the growth with 2 synonymous beta-lactamase genes in presence of beta-lactams.

      - Figure 5. The color schemes in bars do not match up with the color scheme in cartoons below panels B and C. That makes it confusing to read. Please fix.

      Fixed.

      - A lot of abbreviations have been used. This makes reading a bit cumbersome. Ideally, less abbreviations will be used.

      Fixed

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Fruchard et al. investigate the role of the queuosine (Q) modification of the tRNA (Q-tRNA) in the human pathogen Vibrio cholerae. First, the authors state that the absence of Q-modified tRNAs (tgt mutant) increases the translation of TAT codons and proteins with a high TAT codon bias. Second, the absence of Q increases rsxA translation, because rsxA gene has a high TAT codon bias. Third, increased RsxA in the absence of Q inhibits SoxR response, reducing resistance towards the antibiotic tobramycin (TOB). Authors also predict in silico which genes harbor a higher TAT bias and found that among them are some involved in DNA repair, experimentally observing that a tgt mutant is more resistant to UV than the wt strain. It is worth noting that authors employ a wide variety of techniques, both experimental and bioinformatic. However, some aspects of the work need to be clarified or reevaluated.

      (1) The statement that the absence of Q increases the translation of TAT codons and proteins encoded by TAT-enriched genes presents the following problems that should be addressed:

      (1.1) The increase in TAT codon translation in the absence of Q is not supported by proteomics, since there was no detected statistical difference for TAT codon usage in proteins differentially expressed. Furthermore, there are some problems regarding the statistics of proteomics. Some proteins shown in Table S1 have adjusted p-values higher than their pvalues, which makes no sense. Maybe there is a mistake in the adjusted p-value calculation.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s thorough examination of our findings. In our study, we employed an adaptive Benjamini-Hochberg (BH) procedure to control the false discovery rate in our list of selected proteins, as explained in the Data Analysis part of the Proteomics MS and analysis part of our material and methods. The classical BH procedure (10.1111/j.2517-6161.1995.tb02031.x) calculates the 𝑚×𝑝(𝑗) adjusted p-value for the i-th ranked p-value as min where 𝑝(𝑗) is the j-th ranked pvalue and 𝑚 is the number of tests (e.g. number of proteins) (see 10.1021/acs.jproteome.7b00170 for details). Since m/j > 1 and 𝑝(𝑗) > 𝑝(𝑖) for 𝑗≥𝑚, it follows that for 𝑗≥i, resulting in adjusted p-values being higher or equal than the original p-values. Therefore, contrary to the reviewer's comment, it is a mathematical property that the adjusted p-value is greater than the original p-value when using the classical Benjamini-Hochberg procedure. 

      However, we want to underline that we used an « adaptive » BH procedure, which calculates the adjusted p-value for the i-th ranked p-value as min , where 𝜋0 is an estimate of the proportion of true null hypotheses (see 10.1021/acs.jproteome.7b00170 for details). Indeed, the classical BH procedure makes the assumption that 𝜋0 \= 1, which is a strong assumption in MS-based proteomics context.  Consequently, the mathematical property that the adjusted p-value is greater than the original p-value does not always hold true in our approach (that depends also on the 𝜋0 parameter).

      In addition, it is not common to assume that proteins that are quantitatively present in one condition and absent in another are differentially abundant proteins. Proteomics data software typically addresses this issue and applies some corrections. It would be advisable to review that.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting this point. Indeed, some software impute a random small value to replace missing values and then produces statistics based on this imputed data (10.1038/nmeth.3901). However, the validity and relevance of generating statistics in the absence of actual data is questionable. 

      There are no universally accepted guidelines for handling this situation, and we believe it is more logical to set these values aside as potential interesting proteins. It is well-established that intensity values are often missing due to the detection limits of the spectrometer, suggesting that the missing values observed in several replicates of a condition are actually due to low values (see 10.1093/bioinformatics/btp362 and 10.1093/bioinformatics/bts193 for instance). It is thus logical to consider the associated proteins as potentially differentially abundant when comparing their complete absence in all replicates of one condition to their presence in several replicates of another condition.

      (1.2) Problems with the interpretation of Ribo-seq data (Figure 4D). On the one hand, the Ribo-seq data should be corrected (normalized) with the RNA-seq data in each of the conditions to obtain ribosome profiling data, since some genes could have more transcription in some of the conditions studied. In other articles in which this technique is used (such as in Tuorto et al., EMBO J. 2018; doi: 10.15252/embj.201899777), it is interpreted that those positions in which the ribosome moves most slowly and therefore less efficiently translated), are the most abundant. Assuming this interpretation, according to the hypothesis proposed in this work, the fragments enriched in TAT codons should have been less abundant in the absence of Q-tRNA (tgt mutant) in the Rib-seq experiment. However, what is observed is that TAT-enriched fragments are more abundant in the tgt mutant, and yet the Ribo-seq results are interpreted as RNA-seq, stating that this is because the genes corresponding to those sequences have greater expression in the absence of Q. 

      As recommended by the reviewer, we normalized the RiboSeq data with the RNAseq data to account for potential RNA variations. The updated Figure 4 demonstrates that this normalization does not alter our findings, confirming that variations at the RNAseq level do not contradict changes at the translational level. 

      The reviewer's observation that pauses at TAT codons would lead to ribosome accumulation and subsequent categorization as "up" genes is accurate. We must emphasize, however, that this category of “up genes” is probably quite diverse. The effect of ribosome stalling at TAT codons on total mRNA ribosome occupancy is likely highly variable, depending on the location of the TAT codon(s) within the CDS and the gene's expression level. We therefore think that genes in the "Up" category mainly correspond to genes that are more translated because the impact of pausing at TAT codons is probably not strong enough. Note that unlike what is usually done in bacterial riboseq experiments, we did not use any antibiotics to artificially freeze the ribosomes.

      On the other hand, it would be interesting to calculate the mean of the protein levels encoded by the transcripts with high and low ribosome profiling data.

      While this is a common request, we believe that comparing RiboSeq and proteomics data is not particularly informative. RiboSeq data directly measures translation, while proteomics provides information about protein abundance at steady state, reflecting the balance between protein synthesis and degradation. Furthermore, the number of proteins detectable by mass spectrometry is significantly smaller than the number of genes quantified by RiboSeq. Given these factors, there is often a low correlation between translation and protein abundance, making a direct comparison less relevant 

      (1.3) This statement is contrary to most previously reported studies on this topic in eukaryotes and bacteria, in which ribosome profiling experiments, among others, indicate that translation of TAT codons is slower (or unaffected) than translation of the TAC codons, and the same phenomenon is observed for the rest of the NAC/T codons. This is completely opposed to the results showed in Figure 4. However, the results of these studies are either not mentioned or not discussed in this work. Some examples of articles that should be discussed in this work:

      - "Queuosine-modified tRNAs confer nutritional control of protein translation" (Tuorto et al., 2018; 10.15252/embj.201899777)

      - "Preferential import of queuosine-modified tRNAs into Trypanosoma brucei mitochondrion is critical for organellar protein synthesis" (Kulkarni et al., 2021; doi:10.1093/nar/gkab567.

      - "Queuosine-tRNA promotes sex-dependent learning and memory formation by maintaining codonbiased translation elongation speed" (Cirzi et al., 2023; 10.15252/embj.2022112507)

      - "Glycosylated queuosines in tRNAs optimize translational rate and post-embryonic growth" (Zhao et al., 2023; 10.1016/j.cell.2023.10.026)

      - "tRNA queuosine modification is involved in biofilm formation and virulence in bacteria" (Diaz-Rullo and Gonzalez-Pastor, 2023; doi: 10.1093/nar/gkad667). In this work, the authors indicate that QtRNA increases NAT codon translation in most bacterial species. Could the regulation of TAT codonenriched proteins by Q-tRNAs in V. cholerae an exception? In addition, authors use a bioinformatic method to identify genes enriched in NAT codons similar to the one used in this work, and to find in which biological process are involved the genes whose expression is affected by Q-tRNAs (as discussed for the phenotype of UV resistance). It will be worth discussing all of this.

      Thank you for detailed suggestions, we agree that this discussion was missing and this comment gives us a chance to address that in the revised version of the manuscript.

      About the references above suggested by the referee, 4 of these papers were not mentioned in our manuscript, these were published while our manuscript was previously in review and we realize we have not cited them in the latest version of our manuscript. We thank the referee for highlighting this. We have now included a discussion about this. 

      We included the following in the discussion:

      “However, the opposite codon preference was shown in E. coli {Diaz-Rullo, 2023 #1888}. In eukaryotes also, several recent studies indicate slower translation of U-ending codons in the absence of Q34 {Cirzi, 2023 #1887;Kulkarni, 2021 #1886;Tuorto, 2018 #1268}. It’s important to note here, that in V. cholerae ∆tgt, increased decoding of U-ending codons is observed only with tyrosine, and not with the other three NAC/U codons (Histidine, Aspartate, Asparagine). This is interesting because it suggests that what we observe with tyrosine may not adhere to a general rule about the decoding efficiency of U- or C-ending codons, but instead seems to be specific to Tyr tRNAs, at least in the context of V. cholerae. Exceptions may also exist in other organisms. For example, in human cells, queuosine increases efficiency of decoding for U- ending codons and slows decoding of C- ending codons except for AAC {Zhao, 2023 #1889}. In this case, the exception is for tRNA Asparagine. Moreover, in mammalian cells {Tuorto, 2018 #1268}, ribosome pausing at U-ending codons is strongly seen for Asp, His and Asn, but less with Tyr. In Trypanosoma {Kulkarni, 2021 #1886}, reporters with a combination of the 4 NAC/NAU codons for Asp, Asn, Tyr, His have been tested, showing slow translation at U- ending version of the reporter in the absence of Q, but the effect on individual codons (e.g. Tyr only) is not tested. In mice {Cirzi, 2023 #1887}, ribosome slowdown is seen for the Asn, Asp, His U-ending codons but not for the Tyr U-ending codon. In summary, Q generally increases efficiency of U- ending codons in multiple organisms, but there appears to be additional unknown parameters which affect tyrosine UAU decoding, at least in V. cholerae. Additional factors such as mRNA secondary structures or mistranslation may also contribute to the better translation of UAU versions of tested genes. Mistranslation could be an important factor. If codon decoding fidelity impacts decoding speed, then mistranslation could also contribute to decoding efficiency of Tyr UAU/UAC codons and proteome composition.”

      (1.4) It is proposed that the stress produced by the TOB antibiotic causes greater translation of genes enriched in TAT codons. 

      Actually, it’s the opposite because in presence of TOB, in the wt, tgt would be induced leading to more Q on tRNA-Tyr and less translation of TAT.

      On the one hand, it is shown that the GFP-TAT version (gene enriched in TAT codons) and the RsxATAT-GFP protein (native gene naturally enriched in TAT) are expressed more, compared to their versions enriched in TAC in a tgt mutant than in a wt, in the presence of TBO (Fig. 5C). 

      Figure 5C shows relative fluorescence, ie changes of fluorescence in delta-tgt compared to WT. So it’s not necessarily more expressed but “more increased”

      However, in the absence of TOB, and in a wt context, although the two versions of GFP have a similar expression level (Fig. 3SD), the same does not occur with RsxA, whose RsxA-TAT form (the native one) is expressed significantly more than the RsxA-TAC version (Fig. 3SA). How can it be explained that in a wt context, in which there are also tRNA Q-modification, a gene naturally enriched in TAT is translated better than the same gene enriched in TAC?

      We thank the referee for this question based on careful assessment of our data. We agree, there appears to be significantly more RsxA-TAT in WT than RsxA-TAC. This could be due to other effects such as secondary structure formation on mRNA when the wt RsxA is recoded with TAC codons. This does not hinder the conclusion that the translation of the TAT version is increased in delta-tgt compared to WT.  

      It would be expected that in the presence of Q-tRNAs the two versions would be translated equally (as happens with GFP) or even the TAT version would be less translated. On the other hand, in the presence of TOB the fluorescence of WT GFP(TAT) is higher than the fluorescence of WT GFP(TAC) (Figure S3E) (mean fluorescence data for RsxA-GFP version in the presence of TOB is not shown). These results may indicate that the apparent better translation of TAT versions could be due to indirect effects rather from TAT codon translation.

      This is now mentioned in the manuscript

      “We cannot exclude, however, that additional factors such as mRNA secondary structures also contributes to the better translation of UAU versions of tested genes. “

      (2) Another problem is related to the already known role of Q in prevention of stop codon readthrough, which is not discuss at all in the work. In the absence of Q, stop codon readthrough is increased. In addition, it is known that aminoglycosides (such as tobramycin) also increase stop codon readthrough ("Stop codon context influences genome-wide stimulation of termination codon readthrough by aminoglycosides"; Wanger and Green, 2023; 10.7554/eLife.52611). Absence of Q and presence of aminoglycosides can be synergic, producing devastating increases in stop codon readthrough and a large alteration of global gene expression. All of these needs to be discussed in the work. Moreover, it is known that stop codon readthrough can alter gene expression and mRNA sequence context all influence the likelihood of stop codon readthrough. Thus, this process could also affect to the expression of recoded GFP and RsxA versions.

      We included the following in the revised version of the manuscript (results):

      “Q modification impacts decoding fidelity in V. cholerae.

      To test whether a defect in Q34 modification influences the fidelity of translation in the presence and absence of tobramycin, previously developed reporter tools were used (Fabret & Namy, 2021), to measure stop codons readthrough in V. cholerae ∆tgt and wild-type strains. The system consists of vectors containing readthrough promoting signals inserted between the lacZ and luc sequences, encoding β-galactosidase and luciferase, respectively. Luciferase activity reflects the readthrough efficiency, while β-galactosidase activity serves as an internal control of expression level, integrating a number of possible sources of variability (plasmid copy number, transcriptional activity, mRNA stability, and translation rate).  We found increased readthrough at stop codons UAA and to a lesser extent at UAG for ∆tgt, and this increase was amplified for UAG in presence of tobramycin (Fig. S2, stop readthrough). In the case of UAA, tobramycin appears to decrease readthrough, this may be artefactual, due to the toxic effect of tobramycin on ∆tgt.

      Mistranslation at specific codons can also impact protein synthesis. To further investigate mistranslation levels by tRNATyr in WT and ∆tgt, we designed a set of gfp mutants where the codon for the catalytic tyrosine required for fluorescence (TAT at position 66) was substituted by nearcognate codons (Fig. S2). Results suggest that in this sequence context, particularly in the presence of tobramycin, non-modified tRNATyr mistakenly decodes Asp GAC, His CAC and also Ser UCC, Ala GCU, Gly GGU, Leu CUU and Val GUC codons, suggesting that Q34 increases the fidelity of tRNATyr. 

      In parallel, we replaced Tyr103 of the β-lactamase described above, with Asp codons GAT or GAC. The expression of the resulting mutant β-lactamase is expected to yield a carbenicillin sensitive phenotype. In this system, increased tyrosine misincorporation (more mistakes) by tRNATyr at the mutated Asp codon, will lead to increased synthesis of active β-lactamase, which can be evaluated by carbenicillin tolerance tests. As such, amino-acid misincorporation leads here to phenotypic (transient) tolerance, while genetic reversion mutations result in resistance (growth on carbenicillin). The rationale is summarized in Fig. 3C. When the Tyr103 codon was replaced with either Asp codons, we observe increased β-lactamase tolerance (Fig. 3D, left), suggesting increased misincorporation of tyrosine by tRNATyr at Asp codons in the absence of Q, again suggesting that Q34 prevents misdecoding of Asp codons by tRNATyr.

      In order to test any effect on an additional tRNA modified by Tgt, namely tRNAAsp, we mutated the Asp129 (GAT) codon of the β-lactamase. When Asp129 was mutated to Tyr TAT (Fig. 3D, right), we observe reduced tolerance in ∆tgt, but not when it was mutated to Tyr TAC, suggesting less misincorporation of aspartate by tRNAAsp at the Tyr UAU codon in the absence of Q. In summary, absence of Q34 increases misdecoding by tRNATyr at Asp codons, but decreases misdecoding by tRNAAsp at Tyr UAU. 

      This supports the fact that tRNA Q34 modification is involved in translation fidelity during antibiotic stress, and that the effects can be different on different tRNAs, e.g. tRNATyr and tRNAAsp tested here.”

      Added figures: Figure S2, Figure 3CD

      (3) The statement about that the TOB resistance depends on RsxA translation, which is related to the presence of Q, also presents some problems:

      (3.1) It is observed that the absence of tgt produces a growth defect in V. cholerae when exposed to TOB (Figure 1A), and it is stated that this is mediated by an increase in the translation of RsxA, because its gene is TAT enriched. However, in Figure S4F, it is shown that the same phenotype is observed in E. coli, but its rsxA gene is not enriched in TAT codons. Therefore, the growth defect observed in the tgt mutant in the presence of TOB may not be due to the increase in the translation of TAT codons of the rsxA gene in the absence of Q. This phenotype is very interesting, but it may be related to another molecular process regulated by Q. Maybe the role of Q in preventing stop codon readthrough is important in this process, reducing cellular stress in the presence of TOB and growing better.

      FigS4F (now figure 5D) shows that rsxA can be toxic during growth in presence of tobramycin, but it does not show that rsxA translation is increased in E. coli in delta-tgt. However, we agree with the referee that there are probably additional processes regulated by Q which are also involved in the response to TOB stress. We already had mentioned this briefly in the discussion (“Note that, our results do not exclude the involvement of additional Q-regulated MoTTs in the response to sub-MIC TOB, since Q modification leads to reprogramming of the whole proteome. “), we further discussed it as follows:

      “As a consequence, transcripts with tyrosine codon usage bias are differentially translated. One such transcript codes for RsxA, an anti-SoxR factor. SoxR controls a regulon involved in oxidative stress response and sub-MIC aminoglycosides trigger oxidative stress in V. cholerae{Baharoglu, 2013 #720}, pointing to an involvement of oxidative stress response in the response to sub-MIC tobramycin stress.

      A link between Q34 and oxidative stress has also been previously found in eukaryotic organisms {Nagaraja, 2021 #1466}. Note that our results do not exclude the involvement of additional Qregulated translation of other transcripts in the response to tobramycin. Q34 modification leads to reprogramming of the whole proteome, not only for other transcripts with codon usage bias, but also through an impact on the levels of stop codon readthrough and mistranslation at specific codons, as supported by our data.”

      (3.2) All experiments related to the effect of Q on the translation of TAT codons have been performed with the tgt mutant strain. Considering that the authors have a pSEVA-tgt plasmid to overexpress this gene, they would have to show whether tgt overexpression in a wt strain produces a decrease in the translation of proteins encoded by TAT-enriched genes such as RsxA. This experiment would allow them to conclude that Q reduces RsxA levels, increasing resistance to TOB.

      We agree that this would be interesting to test, however, as it can be seen in figure 1B, delta-tgt pSEVAtgt (complemented strain) grows better than WT pSEVA-tgt (tgt overexpression). In fact, overexpression of tgt negatively impacts cell growth and yield smaller colonies, especially when cells carry a second plasmid (e.g with gfp constructs). We have also seen this with other RNA modification gene overexpressions in the lab (unpublished). We believe that the expression of tgt is tuned and since overexpression affects fitness, it is generally difficult to conduct experiments with overexpression plasmid for RNA modifications.  Nevertheless, we have done the experiment (with slow growing bacteria) and when we normalize expression of gfp in the presence of tgt overexpressing plasmid to the condition with no plasmid, we see little (1.5 fold) or no effect of tgt overexpression on fluorescence (see graph below). This is probably due to a toxic effect of ooverexpression and we do not believe these results are biologically relevant. 

      Author response image 1.

      (3.3) On the other hand, Fig. 1B shows that when the wt and tgt strains compete, both overexpressing tgt, the tgt mutant strain grows better in the presence of TOB. This result is not very well understood, since according to the hypothesis proposed, the absence of modification by Q of the tRNA would increase the translation of genes enriched in TAT, therefore, a strain with a higher proportion of Q-modified tRNAs as in the case of the wt strain overexpressing tgt would express the rsxA gene less than the tgt strain overexpressing tgt and would therefore grow better in the presence of TOB. For all these reasons, it would be necessary to evaluate the effect of tgt overexpression on the translation of RsxA.

      See our answer above about negative effect of tgt overexpression.

      (3.4) According to Figure 1I, the overexpression of tRNA-Tyr(GUA) caused a better growth of tgt mutant in comparison to WT. If the growth defect observed in tgt mutant in the presence of TOB is due to a better translation of the TAT codons of rsxA gene, the overexpression of tRNA-Tyr(GUA) in the tgt mutant should have resulted in even better RsxA translation a worse growth, but not the opposite result.

      We agree, we think that rsxA is not the only factor responsible for growth defect of tgt in presence of TOB (as now further discussed in the discussion). Overexpression of tRNAtyr possibly changes the equilibrium between the decoding of TAC vs TAT and may restore translation of TAC enriched genes. As also suggested by rev3, we have measured decoding reporters for TAT/TAC while overexpressing tTNA-tyr. This is now added to the results in fig S2C and the following:

      “We also tested decoding reporters for TAT/TAC in WT and ∆tgt overexpressing tRNATyr in trans (Fig. S1C). The presence of the plasmid (empty p0) amplified differences between the two strains with decreased decoding of TAC (and increased TAT, as expected) in ∆tgt compared to WT. Overexpression of tRNATyrGUA did not significantly impact decoding of TAT and increased decoding of TAC, as expected. Since overexpression of tRNATyrGUA rescues ∆tgt in tobramycin (Fig. 1I) and facilitates TAC decoding, this suggests that issues with TAC codon decoding contribute to the fitness defect observed in ∆tgt upon growth with tobramycin. Overexpression of tRNATyrAUA increased decoding of TAT in WT but did not change it in ∆tgt where it is already high. Unexpectedly, overexpression of tRNATyrAUA also increased decoding of TAC in WT. Thus, overexpression of tRNATyrAUA possibly changes the equilibrium between the decoding of TAC vs TAT and may restore translation of TAC enriched transcripts.” 

      Added figure: figure S1C

      (4) It cannot be stated that DNA repair is more efficient in the tgt mutant of V. cholerae, as indicated in the text of the article and in Fig 7. The authors only observe that the tgt mutant is more resistant to UV radiation and it is suggested that the reason may be TAT bias of DNA repair genes. To validate the hypothesis that UV resistance is increased because DNA repair genes are TAT biased, it would be necessary to check if DNA repair is affected by Q. UV not only produces DNA damage, but also oxidative stress. Therefore, maybe this phenotype is due to the increase in proteins related to oxidative stress controlled by RsxA, such as the superoxide dismutase encoded by sodA. It is also stated that these repair genes were found up for the tgt mutant in the Ribo-seq data, with unchanged transcription levels. Again, it is necessary to clarify this interpretation of the Ribo-seq data, since the fact that they are more represented in a tgt mutant perhaps means that translation is slower in those transcripts. Has it been observed in proteomics (wt vs tgt in the absence of TOB) whether these proteins involved in repair are more expressed in a tgt mutant?

      We agree that our results do not directly show that DNA repair is more efficient, but that delta-tgt responds better to UV. This has been modified in the manuscript. About oxidative stress, we did not see a better or worse response to H202 of delta-tgt. Moreover, since we see better response of deltatgt  to UV only in V. cholerae and not in E. coli, we did not favor the hypothesesi of response to stressox. In proteomics, we do not detect changes for DNA repair genes except for RuvA which is more abundant in delta-tgt. We have toned down the statement about DNA repair in the paper.

      (5) The authors demonstrate that in E. coli the tgt mutant does not show greater resistance to UV radiation (Fig. 7D), unlike what happens in V. cholerae. It should be discussed that in previous works it has been observed that overexpression in E. coli of the tgt gene or the queF gene (Q biosynthesis) is involved in greater resistance to UV radiation (Morgante et al., Environ Microbiol, 2015 doi: 10.1111/1462-2920.12505; and Díaz-Rullo et al., Front Microbiol. 2021 doi: 10.3389/fmicb.2021.723874). As an explanation, it was proposed (Diaz-Rullo and Gonzalez-Pastor, NAR 2023 doi: 10.1093/nar/gkad667) that the observed increase in the capacity to form biofilms in strains that overexpress genes related to Q modification of tRNA would be related to this greater resistance to UV radiation.

      We now mention the previous observations suggesting a link between tgt and UV. We thank the referee for the reference which we had overlooked. Note that in the case of our experiments, all cultures are in planktonic form and are not allowed to form biofilms. We thus prefer not to biofilmlinked processes in this study.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript the authors begin with the interesting phenotype of sub-inhibitory concentrations of the aminoglycoside tobramycin proving toxic to a knockout of the tRNA-guanine transglycosylase (Tgt) of the important human pathogen, Vibrio cholerae. Tgt is important for incorporating queuosine (Q) in place of guanosine at the wobble position of GUN codons. The authors go on to define a mechanism of action where environmental stressors control expression of tgt to control translational decoding of particularly tyrosine codons, skewing the balance from TAC towards TAT decoding in the absence of the enzyme. The authors use advanced proteomics and ribosome profiling to reveal that the loss of tgt results in increased translation of proteins like RsxA and a cohort of DNA repair factors, whose genes harbor an excess of TAT codons in many cases. These findings are bolstered by a series of molecular reporters, mass spectrometry, and tRNA overexpression strains to provide support for a model where Tgt serves as a molecular pivot point to reprogram translational output in response to stress.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript has many strengths. The authors use a variety of strains, assays, and advanced techniques to discover a mechanism of action for Tgt in mediating tolerance to sub-inhibitory concentrations of tobramycin. They observe a clear phenotype for a tRNA modification in facilitating reprogramming of the translational response, and the manuscript certainly has value in defining how microbes tolerate antibiotics.

      We thank the referee for their time and comments. 

      Weaknesses:

      The conclusions of the manuscript are mostly very well-supported by the data, but in some places control experiments or peripheral findings cloud precise conclusions. Some additional clarification, discussion, or even experimental extension could be useful in strengthening these areas.

      (1) The authors have created and used a variety of relevant molecular tools. In some cases, using these tools in additional assays as controls would be helpful. For example, testing for compensation of the observed phenotypes by overexpression of the Tyrosine tRNA(GUA) in Figure 2A with the 6xTAT strain, Figure 5C with the rxsA-GFP fusion, and/or Figure 7B with UV stress would provide additional information of the ability of tRNA overexpression to compensate for the defect in these situations.

      Thank you for the suggestions. Since overexpression of tRNA tyr is not expected to decrease decoding of TAT, we do not necessarily expect any effect for UV and rsxA expression. Overexpression of tRNA_GUA restores fitness of delta-tgt in TOB, but this is probably independent of RsxA. As ref2 also suggested above, we included in the discussion that the effect seen in delta-tgt with TOB is not only due to RsxA expression but also additional processes. However, these suggestions are interesting and we performed the following experiments in order to have an answer for these questions: 

      - “testing for compensation of the observed phenotypes by overexpression of the Tyrosine tRNA(GUA) in Figure 2A with the 6xTAT strain”: 

      This is now included in figure S2C and results as follows: 

      “We also tested decoding reporters for TAT/TAC in WT and ∆tgt overexpressing tRNA-Tyr in trans (Fig. S1C). The presence of the plasmid amplified differences between the two strains with decreased decoding of TAC (and increased TAT, as expected) in ∆tgt with empty plasmid compared to WT. Overexpression of tRNA_TyrGUA did not significantly impact decoding of TAT and increased decoding of TAC as expected. Since overexpression of tRNA_TyrGUA rescues ∆tgt in tobramycin (Fig. 1I) and facilitates TAC decoding, this suggests that issues with TAC codon decoding contribute to the fitness defect observed in ∆tgt upon growth with tobramycin. Overexpression of tRNA_TyrAUA increased decoding of TAT in WT but did not change it in ∆tgt where it is already high. Interestingly, overexpression of TyrAUA also increased decoding of TAC in WT. Thus, overexpression of tRNA_TyrAUA possibly changes the equilibrium between the decoding of TAC vs TAT and may restore translation of TAC enriched transcripts. “  

      -  Figure 5C with the rxsA-GFP fusion: 

      When we overexpress tRNA_GUA, rsxA fluorescence is 2-fold higher in delta-tgt compared to wt. However, the fluorescence is highly decreased compared to the condition with no tRNA overexpression. While we are not sure whether this apparent decrease is a technical issue or not (e.g. due to the presence of additional plasmid), we prefer not to further explore this in this manuscript. Note that we could not obtain delta-tgt strain carrying both plasmids expressing tRNA_GUA and rsxA, suggesting toxic overproduction of rsxA in this context.

      Author response image 2.

      - Figure 7B with UV stress: 

      Here again, delta-tgt overexpressing tRNA_GUA is still more UV resistant than WT overexpressing tRNA_GUA.

      Author response image 3.

      (2) The authors present a clear story with a reprogramming towards TAT codons in the knockout strain, particularly regarding tobramycin treatment. The control experiments often hint at other codons also contributing to the observed phenotypes (e.g., His or Asp), yet these effects are mostly ignored in the discussion. It would be helpful to discuss these findings at a minimum in the discussion section, or possibly experimentally address the role of His or Asp by overexpression of these tRNAs together with Tyrosine tRNA(GUA) in an experiment like that of Figure 1I to see if a more "wild type" phenotype would present. In fact, the synergy of Tyr, His, and/or Asp codons likely helps to explain the effects observed with the DNA repair genes in later experiments.

      We thank the referee for the suggestion. We agree that there could be synergies between these codons, and that’s probably why proteomics data does not clearly reflect tyrosine codons usage bias. This is now further discussed in the ideas and speculation section. 

      Moreover, we have added Figure S3G and the following result:

      “Since not all TAT biased proteins are found to be enriched in ∆tgt proteomics data, the sequence context surrounding TAT codons could affect their decoding. To illustrate this, we inserted after the gfp start codon, various tyrosine containing sequences displayed by rsxA (Fig. S3G). The native tyrosines were all TAT codons, our synthetic constructs were either TAT or TAC, while keeping the remaining sequence unchanged.  We observe that the production of GFP carrying the TEYTATLLL sequence from RsxA is increased in Δtgt compared to WT, while it is unchanged with TEYTACLLL. However, production of the GFP with the sequences LYTATRLL/LYTACRLL and EYTATLR/ EYTACLR was not unaffected (or even decreased for the latter) by the absence of tgt. Overall, our results demonstrate that RsxA is upregulated in the ∆tgt strain at the translational level, and that proteins with a codon usage bias towards tyrosine TAT are prone to be more efficiently translated in the absence of Q modification, but this is also dependent on the sequence context. “

      (3) Regarding Figure 6D, the APB northern blot feels like an afterthought. It was loaded with different amounts of RNA as input and some samples are repeated three times, but Δcrp only once. Collectively, it makes this experiment very difficult to assess.

      A different amount of RNA was used only for ∆tgt in which we have only one band because of the absence of modification. For all the other conditions, the same amount of RNA was used (0.9 µg). Additional replicates of crp were in an additional gel but only a representative gel was shown in the manuscript. This is now specified in the legend.

      We also attach below the picture of the gel with total RNA (syber Gold labelling of total RNA), where it can be seen that the lanes contain an equivalent quantity of RNA, except for ∆tgt.

      Author response image 4.

      Minor Points:

      (3) Fig S2B, do the authors have a hypothesis why the Asp and Phe tRNAs lead to a growth decrease in the untreated samples? It appears like Phe(GAA) partially compensates for the defect.

      Yes we agree, at this stage we do not have any satisfactory answer for this unfortunately. This would be interesting to study further but this is beyond the scope of the present study.

      (5) Lines 655 to 660 seem more appropriate as speculation in the discussion rather than as a conclusion in the results, where no direct experiments are performed. The authors might take advantage of the "Ideas and Speculation" section that eLife allows.

      Thank you very much for this suggestion, we added this section to the manuscript.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor.

      - Figure 6 - Fonts on several mutants is different size/type. fixed

      - What is the Pm promoter. Please expand and give enough details so reader can follow. Especially as it is less used in V. cholerae (typical being pBAD or pTAC promoters). done

      - Spacing where references are inserted should be checked. done

      - Line 860-863 - "V. cholerae's response to sub-MIC antibiotic stress is transposable to other Gramnegative pathogens" . This reads awkard. Consider rephrasing. done

      - Figure 7 - Text in A and C is very small and is very hard to read. Font for tgt is different.

      Fixed. Tgt is in italics.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      As specified in the public review, more evidence would be necessary to affirm that tRNAs not modified by Q have a greater preference for translating TAT codons, since there are several previous studies in which it is shown that Q-tRNAs have a greater preference for NAT codons (including TAT). For example, it is suggested to explore what happens with other recoded genes (enriched in TAT or TAC) if there is a high level of Q-tRNAs (overexpression of tgt in a wt context). It is also necessary to clarify how to interpret the Ribo-seq results, which apparently is different from how they have been interpreted in other studies.

      Please see above our responses and changes made to the manuscript.

      Minor corrections

      In Figure 8, replace "Epitranscriptomic adapation to stress" with "Epitranscriptomic adaptation to stress".

      Fixed, thank you for noticing!

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Lines 48-50, and 110 to 112, the authors have a nice mechanism and story, yet the lines mentioned feel very qualified (e.g., "possibly", "plausibly") and lead to the abstract hiding the value and major conclusions of the study. The authors could consider to revise or even remove these lines to focus on the take-home message in the abstract and end of introduction/discussion. 

      Thank you for this comment, we modified the text.  

      (2) Additional description for the samples in the results section for Figure 1 would be helpful to the reader.

      Done

      (3) Figure S1, the line of experiments with rluF is interesting, but in the end the choice seems a little random. Have the authors assessed knockouts of other modifications on the ASL for effects? Since the modification is not well characterized in V. cholerae according to the authors, it might make sense to save this for a future paper.

      We removed S1, as we agree that this experiment does not really add something to the paper.

      (4) Line 334 and 353 are redundant.

      Fixed

      (5) It is likely beyond the scope of the study, but it would strengthen the paper to repeat Figure 3 with His and/or Asp based on the findings of 2C and 4E to better understand the contribution of His and Asp to Q biology.

      We repeated figure 3 with Asp. Based on Fig 2C (less efficient decoding of GAC in deta-tgt in TOB) and 4E (positive GAT codon bias in proteins up in riboseq in delta-tgt TOB), we would expect that beta-lactamase with asp GAC would be less efficiently decoded than GAT in delta-tgt. 

      This was added to the manuscript

      “Like Tyr103, Asp129 was shown to be important for resistance to β-lactams (Doucet et al., 2004; Escobar et al., 1994; Jacob et al., 1990). When we replaced the native Asp129 GAT with the synonymous codon Asp129 GAC, the GAC version did not appear to produce functional β-lactamase in ∆tgt (Fig. 3B), suggesting increased mistranslation or inefficient decoding of the GAC codon by tRNAAsp in the absence of Q. Decoding of GAT codon was also affected in ∆tgt in the presence of tobramycin.”

      Added figure: Figure 3B

      (6) The authors could consider replacing 5D with S4A-D, which is easier to understand in our opinion.

      Done

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      From the Reviewing Editor:

      Four reviewers have assessed your manuscript on valence and salience signaling in the central amygdala. There was universal agreement that the question being asked by the experiment is important. There was consensus that the neural population being examined (GABA neurons) was important and the circular shift method for identifying task-responsive neurons was rigorous. Indeed, observing valenced outcome signaling in GABA neurons would considerably increase the role the central amygdala in valence. However, each reviewer brought up significant concerns about the design, analysis and interpretation of the results. Overall, these concerns limit the conclusions that can be drawn from the results. Addressing the concerns (described below) would work towards better answering the question at the outset of the experiment: how does the central amygdala represent salience vs valence.

      A weakness noted by all reviewers was the use of the terms 'valence' and 'salience' as well as the experimental design used to reveal these signals. The two outcomes used emphasized non-overlapping sensory modalities and produced unrelated behavioral responses. Within each modality there are no manipulations that would scale either the value of the valenced outcomes or the intensity of the salient outcomes. While the food outcomes were presented many times (20 times per session over 10 sessions of appetitive conditioning) the shock outcomes were presented many fewer times (10 times in a single session). The large difference in presentations is likely to further distinguish the two outcomes. Collectively, these experimental design decisions meant that any observed differences in central amygdala GABA neuron responding are unlikely to reflect valence, but likely to reflect one or more of the above features.

      We appreciate the reviewers’ comments regarding the experimental design. When assessing fear versus reward, we chose stimuli that elicit known behavioral responses, freezing versus consumption. The use of stimuli of the same modality is unlikely to elicit easily definable fear or reward responses or to be precisely matched for sensory intensity. For example, sweet or bitter tastes can be used, but even these activate different taste receptors and vary in the duration of the activation of taste-specific signaling (e.g. how long the taste lingers in the mouth). The approach we employed is similar to that of Yang et al., 2023 (doi: 10.1038/s41586-023-05910-2) that used water reward and shock to characterize the response profiles of somatostatin neurons of the central amygdala. Similar to what was reported by Yang and colleagues we observed that the majority of CeA GABA neurons responded selectively to one unconditioned stimulus (~52%). We observed that 15% of neurons responded in the same direction, either activated or inhibited, by the food or shock US. These were defined as salience based on the definitions of Lin and Nicolelis, 2008 (doi: 10.1016/j.neuron.2008.04.031) in which basal forebrain neurons responded similarly to reward or punishment irrespective of valence. The designation of valence encoding based opposite responses to the food or shock is straightforward (~10% of cells); however, we agree that the designation of modality-specific encoding neurons as valence encoding is less straightforward.

      A second weakness noted by a majority of reviewers was a lack of cue-responsive unit and a lack of exploration of the diversity of response types, and the relationship cue and outcome firing. The lack of large numbers of neurons increasing firing to one or both cues is particularly surprising given the critical contribution of central amygdala GABA neurons to the acquisition of conditioned fear (which the authors measured) as well as to conditioned orienting (which the authors did not measure). Regression-like analyses would be a straightforward means of identifying neurons varying their firing in accordance with these or other behaviors. It was also noted that appetitive behavior was not measured in a rigorous way. Instead of measuring time near hopper, measures of licking would have been better. Further, measures of orienting behaviors such as startle were missing.

      The authors also missed an opportunity for clustering-like analyses which could have been used to reveal neurons uniquely signaling cues, outcomes or combinations of cues and outcomes. If the authors calcium imaging approach is not able to detect expected central amygdala cue responding, might it be missing other critical aspects of responding?

      As stated in the manuscript, we were surprised by the relatively low number of cue responsive cells; however, when using a less stringent statistical method (Figure 5 - Supplement 2), we observed 13% of neurons responded to the food associated cue and 23% responded to the shock associated cue. The differences are therefore likely a reflection of the rigor of the statistical measure to define the responsive units. The number of CS responsive units is less than reported in the CeAl by Ciocchi et al., 2010 (doi: 10.1038/nature09559 ) who observed 30% activated by the CS and 25% inhibited, but is not that dissimilar from the results of Duvarci et al., 2011 (doi: 10.1523/JNEUROSCI.4985-10.2011 ) who observed 11% activated in the CeAl and 25% inhibited by the CS. These numbers are also consistent with previous single cell calcium imaging of cell types in the CeA. For example, Yang et al., 2023 (doi: 10.1038/s41586-023-05910-2) observed that 13% of somatostatin neurons responded to a reward CS and 8% responded to a shock CS. Yu et al., 2017 (doi: 10.1038/s41593-017-0009-9) observed 26.5% of PKCdelta neurons responded to the shock CS. It should also be noted that our analysis was not restricted to the CeAl. Finally, Food learning was assessed in an operant chamber in freely moving mice with reward pellet delivery. Because liquids were not used for the reward US, licking is not a metric that can be used.

      All reviewers point out that the evidence for salience encoding is even more limited than the evidence for valence. Although the specific concern for each reviewer varied, they all centered on an oversimplistic definition of salience. Salience ought to scale with the absolute value and intensity of the stimulus. Salience cannot simply be responding in the same direction. Further, even though the authors observed subsets of central amygdala neurons increasing or decreasing activity to both outcomes - the outcomes can readily be distinguished based on the temporal profile of responding.

      We thank the reviewers for their comments relating to the definition of salience and valence encoding by central amygdala neurons. We have addressed each of the concerns below.

      Additional concerns are raised by each reviewer. Our consensus is that this study sought to answer an important question - whether central amygdala signal salience or valence in cue-outcome learning. However, the experimental design, analyses, and interpretations do not permit a rigorous and definitive answer to that question. Such an answer would require additional experiments whose designs would address the significant concerns described here. Fully addressing the concerns of each reviewer would result in a re-evaluation of the findings. For example, experimental design better revealing valence and salience, and analyses describing diversity of neuronal responding and relationship to behavior would likely make the results Important or even Fundamental.

      We appreciate the reviewers’ comments and have addressed each concern below.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      In this article, Kong and authors sought to determine the encoding properties of central amygdala (CeA) neurons in response to oppositely valenced stimuli and cues predicting those stimuli. The amygdala and its subregional components have historically been understood to be regions that encode associative information, including valence stimuli. The authors performed calcium imaging of GABA-ergic CeA neurons in freely-moving mice conditioned in Pavlovian appetitive and fear paradigms, and showed that CeA neurons are responsive to both appetitive and aversive unconditioned and conditioned stimuli. They used a variant of a previously published 'circular shifting' technique (Harris, 2021), which allowed them to delineate between excited/non-responsive/inhibited neurons. While there is considerable overlap of CeA neurons responding to both unconditioned stimuli (in this case, food and shock, deemed "salience-encoding" neurons), there are considerably fewer CeA neurons that respond to both conditioned stimuli that predict the food and shock. The authors finally demonstrated that there are no differences in the order of Pavlovian paradigms (fear - shock vs. shock - fear), which is an interesting result, and convincingly presented given their counterbalanced experimental design.

      In total, I find the presented study useful in understanding the dynamics of CeA neurons during a Pavlovian learning paradigm. There are many strengths of this study, including the important question and clear presentation, the circular shifting analysis was convincing to me, and the manuscript was well written. We hope the authors will find our comments constructive if they choose to revise their manuscript.

      While the experiments and data are of value, I do not agree with the authors interpretation of their data, and take issue with the way they used the terms "salience" and "valence" (and would encourage them to check out Namburi et al., NPP, 2016) regarding the operational definitions of salience and valence which differ from my reading of the literature. To be fair, a recent study from another group that reports experiments/findings which are very similar to the ones in the present study (Yang et al., 2023, describing valence coding in the CeA using a similar approach) also uses the terms valence and salience in a rather liberal way that I would also have issues with (see below). Either new experiments or revised claims would be needed here, and more balanced discussion on this topic would be nice to see, and I felt that there were some aspects of novelty in this study that could be better highlighted (see below).

      One noteworthy point of alarm is that it seems as if two data panels including heatmaps are duplicated (perhaps that panel G of Figure 5-figure supplement 2 is a cut and paste error? It is duplicated from panel E and does not match the associated histogram).

      We thank the reviewer for their insightful comments and assessment of the manuscript.

      Major concerns:

      (1) The authors wish to make claims about salience and valence. This is my biggest gripe, so I will start here.

      (1a) Valence scales for positive and negative stimuli and as stated in Namburi et al., NPP, 2016 where we operationalize "valence" as having different responses for positive and negative values and no response for stimuli that are not motivational significant (neutral cues that do not predict an outcome). The threshold for claiming salience, which we define as scaling with the absolute value of the stimulus, and not responding to a neutral stimulus (Namburi et al., NPP, 2016; Tye, Neuron, 2018; Li et al., Nature, 2022) would require the lack of response to a neutral cue.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment on the definitions of salience and valence and agree that there is not a consistent classification of these response types in the field. As stated above, we used the designation of salience encoding if the cells respond in the same direction to different stimuli regardless of the valence of the stimulus similar to what was described previously (Lin and Nicolelis, 2008, doi: 10.1016/j.neuron.2008.04.031). Similar definitions of salience have also been reported elsewhere (for examples see: Stephenson-Jones et al., 2020, doi: 10.1016/j.neuron.2019.12.006,  Zhu et al., 2018 doi: 10.1126/science.aat0481, and  Comoli et al., 2003, doi: 10.1038/nn1113P). Per the suggestion of the reviewer, we longitudinally tracked cells on the first day of Pavlovian reward conditioning the fear conditioning day. Although there were considerably fewer head entries on the first day of reward conditioning, we were able to identify 10 cells that were activated by both the food US and shock US. We compared the responses to the first five head entries and last head entries and the first 5 shocks and last five shocks. Consistent with what has been reported for salience encoding neurons in the basal forebrain (Lin and Nicolelis, 2008, doi: 10.1016/j.neuron.2008.04.031), we observed that the responses were highest when the US was most unexpected and decreased in later trials.

      Author response image 1.

      (1b) The other major issue is that the authors choose to make claims about the neural responses to the USs rather than the CSs. However, being shocked and receiving sucrose also would have very different sensorimotor representations, and any differences in responses could be attributed to those confounds rather than valence or salience. They could make claims regarding salience or valence with respect to the differences in the CSs but they should restrict analysis to the period prior to the US delivery.

      Perhaps the reviewer missed this, but analysis of valence and salience encoding to the different CSs are presented in Figure 5G, Figure 5 -Supplement 1 C-D, and Figure 5 -Supplement 2 N-O. Analysis of CS responsiveness to CSFood and CSShock were analyzed during the conditioning sessions Figure 3E-F, Figure 4B-C, Figure 5 – Supplement 2J-O and Figure 5 – Supplement 3K-L, and during recall probe tests for both CSFood and CSShock, Figure 5 – Supplement 1C-J.

      (1c) The third obstacle to using the terms "salience" or "valence" is the lack of scaling, which is perhaps a bigger ask. At minimum either the scaling or the neutral cue would be needed to make claims about valence or salience encoding. Perhaps the authors disagree - that is fine. But they should at least acknowledge that there is literature that would say otherwise.<br /> (1d) In order to make claims about valence, the authors must take into account the sensory confound of the modality of the US (also mentioned in Namburi et al., 2016). The claim that these CeA neurons are indeed valence-encoding (based on their responses to the unconditioned stimuli) is confounded by the fact that the appetitive US (food) is a gustatory stimulus while the aversive US (shock) is a tactile stimulus.

      We provided the same analysis for the US and CS. The US responses were larger and more prevalent, but similar types of encoding were observed for the CS. We agree that the food reward and the shock are very different sensory modalities. As stated above, the use of stimuli of the same modality is unlikely to elicit easily definable fear or reward responses or to be precisely matched for sensory intensity. We agree that the definition of cells that respond to only one stimulus is difficult to define in terms of valence encoding, as opposed to being specific for the sensory modality and without scaling of the stimulus it is difficult to fully address this issue. It should be noted however, that if the cells in the CeA were exclusively tuned to stimuli of different sensory modalities, we would expect to see a similar number of cells responding to the CS tones (auditory) as respond to the food (taste) and shock (somatosensory) but we do not. Of the cells tracked longitudinally 80% responded to the USs, with 65% of cells responding to food (activated or inhibited) and 44% responding to shock (activated or inhibited).

      (2) Much of the central findings in this manuscript have been previously described in the literature. Yang et al., 2023 for instance shows that the CeA encodes salience (as demonstrated by the scaled responses to the increased value of unconditioned stimuli, Figure 1 j-m), and that learning amplifies responsiveness to unconditioned stimuli (Figure 2). It is nice to see a reproduction of the finding that learning amplifies CeA responses, though one study is in SST::Cre and this one in VGAT::cre - perhaps highlighting this difference could maximize the collective utility for the scientific community?

      We agree that the analysis performed here is similar to what was conducted by Yang et al., 2023. With the major difference being the types of neurons sampled. Yang et al., imaged only somatostatin neurons were as we recorded all GABAergic cell types within the CeA. Moreover, because we imaged from 10 mice, we sampled neurons that ostensibly covered the entire dorsal to ventral extent of the CeA (Figure 1 – Supplement 1). Remarkably, we found that the vast majority of CeA neurons (80%) are responsive to food or shock. Within this 80% there are 8 distinct response profiles consistent with the heterogeneity of cell types within the CeA based on connectivity, electrophysiological properties, and gene expression. Moreover, we did not find any spatial distinction between food or shock responsive cells, with the responsive cell types being intermingled throughout the dorsal to ventral axis (Figure 5 – Supplement 3).

      (3) There is at least one instance of copy-paste error in the figures that raised alarm. In the supplementary information (Figure 5- figure supplement 2 E;G), the heat maps for food-responsive neurons and shock-responsive neurons are identical. While this almost certainly is a clerical error, the authors would benefit from carefully reviewing each figure to ensure that no data is incorrectly duplicated.

      We thank the reviewer for catching this error. It has been corrected.

      (4) The authors describe experiments to compare shock and reward learning; however, there are temporal differences in what they compare in Figure 5. The authors compare the 10th day of reward learning with the 1st day of fear conditioning, which effectively represent different points of learning and retrieval. At the end of reward conditioning, animals are utilizing a learned association to the cue, which demonstrates retrieval. On the day of fear conditioning, animals are still learning the cue at the beginning of the session, but they are not necessarily retrieving an association to a learned cue. The authors would benefit from recording at a later timepoint (to be consistent with reward learning- 10 days after fear conditioning), to more accurately compare these two timepoints. Or perhaps, it might be easier to just make the comparison between Day 1 of reward learning and Day 1 of fear learning, since they must already have these data.

      We agree that there are temporal differences between the food and shock US deliveries. This is likely a reflection of the fact that the shock delivery is passive and easily resolved based on the time of the US delivery, whereas the food responses are variable because they are dependent upon the consumption of the sucrose pellet. Because of these differences the kinetics of the responses cannot be accurately compared. This is why we restricted our analysis to whether the cells were food or shock responsive. Aside from reporting the temporal differences in the signals did not draw major conclusions about the differences in kinetics. In our experimental design we counterbalanced the animals that received fear conditioning firs then food conditioning, or food conditioning then fear conditioning to ensure that order effects did not influence the outcome of the study. It is widely known that Pavlovian fear conditioning can facilitate the acquisition of conditioned stimulus responses with just a single day of conditioning. In contrast, Pavlovian reward conditioning generally progresses more slowly. Because of this we restricted our analysis to the last day of reward conditioning to the first and only day of fear conditioning. However, as stated above, we compared the responses of neurons defined as salience during day 1 of reward conditioning and fear conditioning. As would be predicted based on previous definitions of salience encoding (Lin and Nicolelis, 2008, doi: 10.1016/j.neuron.2008.04.031), we observed that the responses were highest when the US was most unexpected

      (5) The authors make a claim of valence encoding in their title and throughout the paper, which is not possible to make given their experimental design. However, they would greatly benefit from actually using a decoder to demonstrate their encoding claim (decoding performance for shock-food versus shuffled labels) and simply make claims about decoding food-predictive cues and shock-predictive cues. Interestingly, it seems like relatively few CeA neurons actually show differential responses to the food and shock CSs, and that is interesting in itself.

      As stated above, valence and salience encoding were defined similar to what has been previously reported (Li et al., 2019, doi: 10.7554/eLife.41223; Yang et al., 2023, doi: 10.1038/s41586-023-05910-2; Huang et al., 2024, doi: 10.1038/s41586-024-07819; Lin and Nicolelis, 2008, doi: 10.1016/j.neuron.2008.04.031; Stephenson-Jones et al., 2020, doi: 10.1016/j.neuron.2019.12.006; Zhu et al., 2018, doi: 10.1126/science.aat0481; and Comoli et al., 2003, doi: 10.1038/nn1113P). Interestingly, many of these studies did not vary the US intensity.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In their manuscript entitled Kong and colleagues investigate the role of distinct populations of neurons in the central amygdala (CeA) in encoding valence and salience during both appetitive and aversive conditioning. The study expands on the work of Yang et al. (2023), which specifically focused on somatostatin (SST) neurons of the CeA. Thus, this study broadens the scope to other neuronal subtypes, demonstrating that CeA neurons in general are predominantly tuned to valence representations rather than salience.

      We thank the reviewer for their insightful comments and assessment of the manuscript.

      Strengths:

      One of the key strengths of the study is its rigorous quantitative approach based on the "circular-shift method", which carefully assesses correlations between neural activity and behavior-related variables. The authors' findings that neuronal responses to the unconditioned stimulus (US) change with learning are consistent with previous studies (Yang et al., 2023). They also show that the encoding of positive and negative valence is not influenced by prior training order, indicating that prior experience does not affect how these neurons process valence.

      Weaknesses:

      However, there are limitations to the analysis, including the lack of population-based analyses, such as clustering approaches. The authors do not employ hierarchical clustering or other methods to extract meaning from the diversity of neuronal responses they recorded. Clustering-based approaches could provide deeper insights into how different subpopulations of neurons contribute to emotional processing. Without these methods, the study may miss patterns of functional specialization within the neuronal populations that could be crucial for understanding how valence and salience are encoded at the population level.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comments regarding clustering-based approaches. In order to classify cells as responsive to the US or CS we chose to develop a statistically rigorous method for classifying cell response types. Using this approach, we were able to define cell responses to the US and CS. Importantly, we identified 8 distinct response types to the USs. It is not clear how additional clustering analysis would improve cell classifications.

      Furthermore, while salience encoding is inferred based on responses to stimuli of opposite valence, the study does not test whether these neuronal responses scale with stimulus intensity-a hallmark of classical salience encoding. This limits the conclusions that can be drawn about salience encoding specifically.

      As stated above, we used salience classifications similar to those previously described (Lin and Nicolelis, 2008, doi: 10.1016/j.neuron.2008.04.031; Stephenson-Jones et al., 2020, doi: 10.1016/j.neuron.2019.12.006; Zhu et al., 2018, doi: 10.1126/science.aat0481; and Comoli et al., 2003, doi: 10.1038/nn1113P). We agree that varying the stimulus intensity would provide a more rigorous assessment of salience encoding; however, several of the studies mentioned above classify cells as salience encoding without varying stimulus intensity. Additionally, the inclusion of recordings with varying US intensities on top of the Pavlovian reward and fear conditioning would further decrease the number of cells that can be longitudinally tracked and would likely decrease the number of cells that could be classified.

      In sum, while the study makes valuable contributions to our understanding of CeA function, the lack of clustering-based population analyses and the absence of intensity scaling in the assessment of salience encoding are notable limitations.

      Reviewer #4 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors have performed endoscopic calcium recordings of individual CeA neuron responses to food and shock, as well as to cues predicting food and shock. They claim that a majority of neurons encode valence, with a substantial minority encoding salience.

      Strengths:

      The use of endoscopic imaging is valuable, as it provides the ability to resolve signals from single cells, while also being able to track these cells across time. The recordings appear well-executed, and employ a sophisticated circular shifting analysis to avoid statistical errors caused by correlations between neighboring image pixels.

      Weaknesses:

      My main critique is that the authors didn't fully test whether neurons encode valence. While it is true that they found CeA neurons responding to stimuli that have positive or negative value, this by itself doesn't indicate that valence is the primary driver of neural activity. For example, they report that a majority of CeA neurons respond selectively to either the positive or negative US, and that this is evidence for "type I" valence encoding. However, it could also be the case that these neurons simply discriminate between motivationally relevant stimuli in a manner unrelated to valence per se. A simple test of this would be to check if neural responses generalize across more than one type of appetitive or aversive stimulus, but this was not done. The closest the authors came was to note that a small number of neurons respond to CS cues, of which some respond to the corresponding US in the same direction. This is relegated to the supplemental figures (3 and 4), and it is not noted whether the the same-direction CS-US neurons are also valence-encoding with respect to different USs. For example, are the neurons excited by CS-food and US-food also inhibited by shock? If so, that would go a long way toward classifying at least a few neurons as truly encoding valence in a generalizable way.

      As stated above, valence and salience encoding were defined similar to what has been previously reported (Li et al., 2019, doi: 10.7554/eLife.41223; Yang et al., 2023, doi: 10.1038/s41586-023-05910-2; Huang et al., 2024, doi: 10.1038/s41586-024-07819; Lin and Nicolelis, 2008, doi: 10.1016/j.neuron.2008.04.031; Stephenson-Jones et al., 2020, doi: 10.1016/j.neuron.2019.12.006; Zhu et al., 2018, doi: 10.1126/science.aat0481; and Comoli et al., 2003, doi: 10.1038/nn1113P). As reported in Figure 5 and Figure 5 – Supplement 3, ~29% of CeA neurons responded to both food and shock USs (15% in the same direction and 13.5% in the opposite direction). In contrast, only 6 of 303 cells responded to both the CSfood and CSshock, all in the same direction.

      A second and related critique is that, although the authors correctly point out that definitions of salience and valence are sometimes confused in the existing literature, they then go on themselves to use the terms very loosely. For example, the authors define these terms in such a way that every neuron that responds to at least one stimulus is either salience or valence-encoding. This seems far too broad, as it makes essentially unfalsifiable their assertion that the CeA encodes some mixture of salience and valence. I already noted above that simply having different responses to food and shock does not qualify as valence-encoding. It also seems to me that having same-direction responses to these two stimuli similarly does not quality a neuron as encoding salience. Many authors define salience as being related to the ability of a stimulus to attract attention (which is itself a complex topic). However, the current paper does not acknowledge whether they are using this, or any other definition of salience, nor is this explicitly tested, e.g. by comparing neural response magnitudes to any measure of attention.

      As stated in response to reviewer 2, we longitudinally tracked cells on the first day of Pavlovian reward conditioning the fear conditioning day. Although there were considerably fewer head entries on the first day of reward conditioning, we were able to identify 10 cells that were activated by both the food US and shock US. We compared the responses to the first five head entries and last head entries and the first 5 shocks and last five shocks. Consistent with what has been reported for salience encoding neurons in the basal forebrain (Lin and Nicolelis, 2008, doi: 10.1016/j.neuron.2008.04.031), we observed that the responses were highest when the US was most unexpected and decreased in later trials.

      The impression I get from the authors' data is that CeA neurons respond to motivationally relevant stimuli, but in a way that is possibly more complex than what the authors currently imply. At the same time, they appear to have collected a large and high-quality dataset that could profitably be made available for additional analyses by themselves and/or others.

      Lastly, the use of 10 daily sessions of training with 20 trials each seems rather low to me. In our hands, Pavlovian training in mice requires considerably more trials in order to effectively elicit responses to the CS. I wonder if the relatively sparse training might explain the relative lack of CS responses?

      It is possible that learning would have occurred more quickly if we had used greater than 20 trials per session. However, we routinely used 20-25 trials for Pavlovian reward conditioning (doi: 10.1073/pnas.1007827107; doi: 10.1523/JNEUROSCI.5532-12.2013; doi: 10.1016/j.neuron.2013.07.044; and doi: 10.1016/j.neuron.2019.11.024).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      eLife Assessment

      This useful study integrates experimental methods from materials science with psychophysical methods to investigate how frictional stabilities influence tactile surface discrimination. The authors argue that force fluctuations arising from transitions between frictional sliding conditions facilitate the discrimination of surfaces with similar friction coefficients. However, the reliance on friction data obtained from an artificial finger, together with the ambiguous correlative analyses relating these measurements to human psychophysics, renders the findings incomplete.

      Our main goal with this paper was to show that the most common metric, i.e. average friction coefficient—widely used in tactile perception and device design – is fundamentally unsound, and to offer a secondary parameter that is compatible with the fact that human motion is unconstrained, leading to dynamic interfacial mechanics.

      We understand the Reviewers wanted, through biomechanical measurements, to demonstrate that humans using instabilities. This is seemingly reasonable, but in individual responses, we explain the significant challenges and fundamental unknowns to those experiments. We believe this paper sets forth an important step to approach this problem. At the same time, we have made several changes in the discussion, conclusion, and title to clarify that our study is correlative between mechanical characterization and human testing.

      In short, there are still several fundamental unknowns that prevented us from basing the study around biomechanical measurements: (1) a decision-making model would need to be created, but it is unknown if tactile decision making follows other models, (2) it is further unknown what constitutes “tactile evidence”, though at our manuscript’s conclusion, we propose that friction instabilities are better suited for to be tactile evidence than the averaging of friction coefficients from a narrow range of human exploration (3) in the design of samples, from a friction mechanics and materials perspective, it is not at this point, possible to pre-program surfaces a priori to deliver friction instabilities and instead must be experimentally determined – especially when attempting to achieve this in controlled surfaces that do not create other overriding tactile cues, like macroscopic bumps or large differences in surface roughness. (4) Given that the basis for tactile percepts, like which object feels “rougher” or “smoother” is not sufficiently established, it is necessary to use a 3-alternative forced choice task which avoids asking objects along a preset perceptual dimension – a challenge recognized by Reviewer 3. However, this would bring in issues of memory in the decision-making model. (5) The prior points are compounded by the fact that, we believe, tactile exploration must be performed in an unconstrained manner, i.e., without an apparatus generating motion onto a stationary finger. Work by Liu et al. (IEEE ToH, 2024) showed that recreating friction obtained during free exploration onto a stationary finger was uninterpretable by the participants, hinting at the importance of efference copies.[1] We believe that many of the above-mentioned issues constitutes a significant advance in knowledge and would require discussion and dissemination with the community.

      Our changes to the manuscript

      Page 1 & SI Page 1, Title

      “Alternatives to Friction Coefficient: Fine Touch Perception Correlates with Frictional Instabilities”

      Reviewer 1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this paper, Derkaloustian et. al look at the important topic of what affects fine touch perception. The observations that there may be some level of correlation with instabilities are intriguing. They attempted to characterize different materials by counting the frequency (occurrence #, not of vibration) of instabilities at various speeds and forces of a PDMS slab pulled lengthwise over the material. They then had humans make the same vertical motion to discriminate between these samples. They correlated the % correct in discrimination with differences in frequency of steady sliding over the design space as well as other traditional parameters such as friction coefficient and roughness. The authors pose an interesting hypothesis and make an interesting observation about the occurrences of instability regimes in different materials while in contact with PDMS, which is interesting for the community to see in the publication. It should be noted that the finger is complex, however, and there are many factors that may be quite oversimplified with the use of the PDMS finger, and the consideration and discounting of other parameters are not fully discussed in the main text or SI. Most importantly, however, the conclusions as stated do not align with the primary summary of the data in Figure 2.

      Strengths:

      The strength of this paper is in its intriguing hypothesis and important observation that instabilities may contribute to what humans are detecting as differences in these apparently similar samples.

      We thank Reviewer 1 for their time on the manuscript, recognizing the approach we took, and offering constructive feedback. We believe that our conclusions, in fact, are supported by the primary summary of the data in Fig. 2 but we believe that our use of R<sup>2</sup> could have led to misinterpretation. The trend with friction coefficient and percent correct was indeed statistically significant but was spurious because the slope was negative. In the revision, we add clarifying comments throughout, change from R<sup>2</sup> to r as to highlight the negative trend, and adjust the figures to better focus on friction coefficient.

      Finally, we added a new section to discuss the tradeoffs between using a real human finger versus a mock finger, and which situations may warrant the use of one or the other. In short, for our goal of characterizing surfaces to be used in tactile experiments, we believe a mock finger is more sustainable and practical than using real humans because human fingers are unique per participant, humans move their fingers at constantly changing pressures and velocities, and friction generated during free exploring human cannot be satisfactorily replicated by moving a sample onto a stationary finger. But, we do not disagree that for other types of experiments, characterizing a human participant directly may be more advantageous.

      Weaknesses:

      Comment 1

      The most important weakness is that the findings do not support the statements of findings made in the abstract. Of specific note in this regard is the primary correlation in Figure 2B between SS (steady sliding) and percent correct discrimination. Of specific note in this regard is the primary correlation in Figure 2B between SS (steady sliding) and percent correct discrimination. While the statistical test shows significance (and is interesting!), the R-squared value is 0.38, while the R-squared value for the "Friction Coefficient vs. Percent Correct" plot has an R-squared of 0.6 and a p-value of < 0.01 (including Figure 2B). This suggests that the results do not support the claim in the abstract: "We found that participant accuracy in tactile discrimination was most strongly correlated with formations of steady sliding, and response times were negatively correlated with stiction spikes. Conversely, traditional metrics like surface roughness or average friction coefficient did not predict tactile discriminability."

      We disagree that the trend with friction coefficient suggests the results do not support the claim because the correlation was found to be negative. However, we could have made the comparison more apparent and expanded on this point, given its novelty.

      While the R<sup>2</sup> value corresponding to the “Friction Coefficient vs. Percent Correct” plot is notably higher, our results show that the slope is negative, which would be statistically spurious. This is because a negative correlation between percent correct (accuracy in discriminating surfaces) and difference in friction coefficient means that the more similar two surfaces are (by friction coefficient), the easier it would be for people to tell them apart. That is, it incorrectly concludes that two identical surfaces would be much easier to tell apart than two surfaces with greatly different friction coefficients.

      This is counterintuitive to nearly all existing results, but we believe our samples were well-positioned to uncover this trend by minimizing variability, by controlling multiple physical parameters in the samples, and that the friction coefficient — typically calculated in the field as an average friction coefficient — ignores all the dynamic changes in forces present in elastic systems undergoing mesoscale friction, i.e., human touch, as seen in Fig. 1 in a mock finger and Fig. 3 in a real finger. By demonstrating this statistically spurious trend, we believe this strongly supports our premise that an alternative to friction coefficient is needed in the design of tactile psychophysics and haptic interfaces.

      We believe that this could have been misinterpreted, so we took several steps to improve clarity, given the importance of this finding: we separated the panel on friction coefficient to its own panel, we changed from R<sup>2</sup> to r throughout, and we added clarifying text. We also added a small section focusing on this spurious trend.

      Our changes to the manuscript

      Page 1, Abstract

      “In fact, the typical method of averaging friction coefficients led to a spurious correlation which erroneously suggests that distinct objects should feel identical and identical objects should feel distinct.”

      Page 7

      “As Fig. 1 was constructed from friction measurements, we can also calculate an average friction coefficient, µ, by averaging the friction coefficient obtained at each of the 16 combinations of masses and velocities (Table 1). This calculation is a standard approach in tactile studies for summarizing friction measurements, or in some cases, surfaces are never characterized at multiple masses and velocities. However, summarizing friction data in this manner has been considered as conceptually questionable by others from a mechanics perspective.[3] Fig. 1 shows that the type of instabilities and friction forces encountered on a single surface can vary widely depending on the conditions. As a result, large variations in the friction coefficient are expected, depending on the mass and velocity — even though measurements originate from the same surface. This variability in friction coefficient can be seen with the large interquartile range of friction coefficients, which shows that the variation in friction coefficient across a single surface is similar, or even larger, than the differences in average friction coefficient across two different surfaces. The observation that friction coefficients vary so widely on a single surface calls into question the approach of analyzing how humans may perceive two different objects based on their average friction coefficients.”

      Page 9, Fig. 2 Caption

      “D) GLMM of accuracy vs. difference in average friction coefficient , showing a negative correlation. E) GLMMs of accuracy vs. other commonly used material properties or parameters: ΔAverage roughness R<sub>a</sub>, ΔHurst exponent H, and ΔWater contact angle hysteresis (º) (N = 10 participants_, _n = 600 total trials).”

      Page 9

      “Considering all instabilities individually, we found that only steady sliding was a positive, statistically significant predictor. (r \= 0.62, p < 0.05, shown in Fig. 2B).”

      Page 10

      “To compare the value of looking at frictional instabilities, we also performed GLMM fits on common approaches in the field, like a friction coefficient or material property typically used in tactile discrimination, shown in Fig. 2D-E. Interestingly, in Fig. 2D, we observed a spurious, negative correlation between friction coefficient (typically and often problematically simplified as across all tested conditions) and accuracy (r = -0.64, p < 0.01); that is, the more different the surfaces are by friction coefficient, the less people can tell them apart. This spurious correlation would be the opposite of intuition, and further calls into question the common practice of using friction coefficients in touch-related studies. Interestingly, this spurious correlation was also found by Gueorguiev et al.[21] The alternative, two-term model which includes adhesive contact area for friction coefficient[32] was even less predictive (see Fig. S6A of SI). We believe such a correlation could not have been uncovered previously as our samples are minimal in their physical variations. Yet, the dynamic changes in force even within a single sample are not considered, despite being a key feature of mesoscale friction during human touch.

      We investigate different material properties in Fig. 2E. Differences in average roughness R<sub>a</sub> (or other parameters, like root mean square roughness R<sub>rms</sub> (Fig. S6A of SI) did not show a statistically significant correlation to accuracy. Though roughness is a popular parameter, correlating any roughness parameter to human performance here could be moot: the limit of detecting roughness differences has previously been defined as 13 nm on structured surfaces[36] and much higher for randomly rough surfaces,[49] all of which are magnitudes larger than the roughness differences between our surfaces. The differences in contact angle hysteresis – as an approximation of the adhesion contributions[50] – do not present any statistically significant effects on performance.”

      Page 11-12

      “Despite the correlative nature of this study, we still obtained high correlations compared to existing biomechanical studies[4,19,21], which we speculate is because instabilities are an important predictive phenomenon for models of human touch. We believe that biomechanical studies, including more sophisticated techniques, like spatially resolved force maps from digital image correlation[5,42] may yield stronger correlations and results if they analyze data based on instabilities.

      Added References

      (2) Khamis, H. et al. Friction sensing mechanisms for perception and motor control: passive touch without sliding may not provide perceivable frictional information. J. Neurophysiol. 125, 809– 823 (2021).

      (6) Olczak, D., Sukumar, V. & Pruszynski, J. A. Edge orientation perception during active touch. J. Neurophysiol. 120, 2423–2429 (2018).

      Comment 2, Part 1

      Along the same lines, other parameters that were considered such as the "Percent Correct vs. Difference in Sp" and "Percent Correct vs. Difference in SFW" were not plotted for consideration in the SI. It would be helpful to compare these results with the other three metrics in order to fully understand the relationships.

      We have added these plots to the SI. We note that we had checked these relationships and discussed them briefly, but did not include the plot. The plots show that the type of instability was not as helpful as its presence or absence.

      Our changes to the manuscript

      Page 9

      “Furthermore, a model accounting for slow frictional waves alone specifically shows a significant, negative effect on performance (p < 0.01, Fig. S5 of SI), suggesting that in these samples and task, the type of instability was not as important.”

      “Fig. S5. GLMM fits of participant accuracy vs. the differences in instability incidence for individual instability types. Left: accuracy vs. differences in formation of slow frictional waves (SFW) between pairs. P1 and P5 have the same x-axis value and are shifted for clarity. Right: accuracy vs. differences in formation of stiction spikes (Sp).”

      SI Page 4

      “and no correlation between accuracy and stiction spikes (Fig. S5).”

      Comment 2, Part 2

      Other parameters such as stiction magnitude and differences in friction coefficient over the test space could also be important and interesting.

      We agree these are interesting and have thought about them. We are aware that others, like Gueorguiev et al., have studied stiction magnitudes, and though there was a correlation, the physical differences in surface roughness (glass versus PMMA) investigated made it unclear if these could be generalized further.[3] We are unsure how to proceed here with a satisfactory analysis of stiction magnitude, given that stiction spikes are not always generated. In fact, Fig. 1 shows that for many velocities and pressures, stiction spikes are not formed. In ongoing work, however, we are always cognizant that if stiction spikes are a dominant factor, then a secondary analysis on their magnitude would be important. We offer some speculation on why stiction spikes may be overrepresented in the literature:

      (1) They are prone to being created if the finger was loaded for a long time onto a surface prior to movement, thus creating adhesion by contact aging which is unlike active human exploration. We avoid this by discarding the first pull in our measurements, which is a standard practice in mechanical characterization if contact aging needs to be avoided.

      (2) The ranges of velocities and pressures explored by others were small.

      (3) In an effort to generate strong tactile stimuli, highly adhesive or rough surfaces are used.

      (4) Stiction spikes are visually distinctive on a plot, but we are unaware of any mechanistic reason that mechanoreceptors would be particularly sensitive to this low frequency event over other signals.

      We interpret “difference in friction coefficient over the test space” to be, for a single surface, like C4, to find the highest average friction for a condition of single velocity and mass and subtract that from the lowest average friction for a condition of single velocity and mass. We calculated the difference in friction coefficient in the typical manner of the field, by averaging all data collected at all velocities and masses and assigning a single value for all of a surface, like C4. We had performed this, and have the data, but we are wary of overinterpreting secondary and tertiary metrics because they do not have any fundamental basis in traditional tribology, and this value, if used by humans, would suggest that they rapidly explore a large parameter space to find a “maximum” and “minimum” friction. Furthermore, the range in friction across the test space, after averaging, can be smaller than the range of friction experienced at different masses and velocities on a single surface. We have tabulated and newly included these values (the interquartile range of friction coefficients of different masses and velocities per surface) in Table 1.

      Fig. 2D shows a GLMM fit between percent correct responses across our pairs and the differences in friction coefficient for each pair, where we see a spurious negative correlation. As we had the data of all average friction coefficients for each condition for a given material, we also looked at the difference in maximum and minimum friction coefficients. For our tested pairs, these differences also lined up on a statistically significant, negative GLMM fit (r = -0.86, p < 0.005). However, the values for a given surface can vary drastically, with an interquartile range of 1.20 to 2.09 on a single surface. We fit participant accuracy to the differences in these IQRs across pairs. This also led to a negative GLMM fit (r = -0.65, p < 0.05). However, we are hesitant to add this plot to the manuscript for the reasons stated previously.

      Comment 3, Part 1

      Beyond this fundamental concern, there is a weakness in the representativeness of the PDMS finger, the vertical motion, and the speed of sliding to real human exploration.

      Overall, this is a continuous debate that we think offers two solutions, and we are not advocating for an “either-or” case. There is always a tradeoff between using a synthetic model of a finger versus a real human finger, and there is a place for both models. That is, while our mock finger will be “better” the more similar it is to a human finger, it is not our goal to fully replace a human finger. Rather our goal is to provide a consistent method of characterizing surfaces that is sufficiently similar to human touch as to be a useful and predictive tool.

      The usefulness of the mock finger is in isolating the features of each surface that is independent of human variability, i.e., instabilities that form without changing loading conditions between sliding motions or even within one sliding motion. Of course, with this method, we still require confirmation of these features still forming during human exploration, which we show in Fig. 3. We believe that this method of characterizing surfaces at the mesoscale will ultimately lead to more successful human studies on tactile perception. Currently, and as shown in the paper, characterizing surfaces through traditional techniques, such as a commercial tribometer (friction coefficient, using a steel or hard metal ball), roughness (via atomic force microscopy or some other metrology), surface energy are less or not at all predictive. Thus, we believe this mock finger is better than the current state-of-the-art characterizing surfaces (we are also aware of a commercial mock finger company, but we were unable to purchase or obtain an evaluation model).

      One of the main – and severe – limitations of using a human finger is that all fingers are different, meaning any study focusing on a particular user may not apply to others or be recreated easily by other researchers. We do not think it is feasible to set a standard for replication around a real human finger as that participant may no longer be available, or willing to travel the world as a “standard”. Furthermore, the method in which a person changes their pressures and velocities is different. We note that this is a challenge unique to touch perception – how an object is touched changes the friction generated, and thus the tactile stimulus generated, whereas a standardized stimulus is more straightforward for light or sound.

      However, we do emphasize that we have strongly considered the balance between feasibility and ecological validity in the design of a mock finger. We have a mock finger, with the three components of stiffness of a human finger (more below). Furthermore, we have also successfully used this mock finger in correlations with human psychophysics in previous work, where findings from our mechanical experiments were more predictive of human performance[4–7] than other available methods.

      Our changes to the manuscript Added (Page 2-3)

      “Mock finger as a characterization tool

      We use a mechanical setup with a PDMS (poly(dimethylsiloxane)) mock finger to derive tactile predictors as opposed to direct biomechanical measurements on human participants. While there is a tradeoff in selecting a synthetic finger over a real human finger to modeling human touch, human fingers themselves are also highly variable[23] both in their physical shape and their use during human motion. Our goal is to design a consistent method of characterization of samples that can be easily accessed by other researchers and does not rely on a standard established around single human participant. We believe that sufficient replication of surface, bulk properties, and contact geometry results in characterization that isolates consistent features of surfaces that are not derived from human-to-human variability. We have used this approach to successfully correlate human results with mock finger characterization previously.[8,9,24]

      The major component of a human finger, by volume, is soft tissue (~56%),[25] resulting in an effective modulus close to 100 kPa.[26,27] In order to achieve this same softness, we crosslink PDMS in a 1×1×5 cm mold at a 30:1 elastomer:crosslinker ratio. In addition, two more features in the human finger impart significant mechanical differences. Human fingers have a bone at the fingertip, the distal phalanx,[26–28, 8–10]which we mimic with an acrylic “bone” within our PDMS network. The stratum corneum, the stiffer, glassier outer layer of skin,[29] is replicated with the surface of the mock finger glassified, or further crosslinked, after 8 hours of UV-Ozone treatment.30 This treatment also modifies the surface properties of the native PDMS to align with those of a human finger more closely: it minimizes the viscoelastic tack at the surface, resulting in a comparable non-sticky surface. Stabilizing after one day after treatment, the mock finger surface obtains a moderate hydrophilicity (~60º), as is typically observed for a real finger.[11,31]

      The initial contact area formed before a friction trace is collected is a rectangle of 1×1 cm. While this shape is not entirely representative of a human finger with curves and ridges, human fingers flatten out enough to reduce the effects of curvature with even very light pressures.[31–33] This implies that for most realistic finger pressures, the contact area is largely load-independent, which is more accurately replicated with a rectangular mock finger.

      Lastly, we consider the role of fingerprint ridges. A key finding of our previous work is that while fingerprints enhanced frictional dynamics at certain conditions, key features were still maintained with a flat finger.[11] Furthermore, for some loading conditions, the more amplified signals could also result in more similar friction traces for different surfaces. We have observed good agreement between these friction traces and human experiments.[8,9,22,34]”

      Page 3-4, Materials and Methods

      “Mock Finger Preparation

      Friction forces across all six surfaces were measured using a custom apparatus with a polydimethylsiloxane (PDMS, Dow Sylgard 184) mock finger that mimics a human finger’s mechanical properties and contact mechanics while exploring a surface relatively closely.[8,9] PDMS and crosslinker were combined in a 30:1 ratio to achieve a stiffness of 100 kPa comparable to a real finger, then degassed in a vacuum desiccator for 30 minutes. We are aware that the manufacturer recommended crosslinking ratio for Sylgard 184 is 10:1 due to potential uncrosslinked liquid residues,[35] but further crosslinking concentrated at the surface prevents this. The prepared PDMS was then poured into a 1×1×5 cm mold also containing an acrylic 3D-printed “bone” to attach applied masses on top of the “fingertip” area contacting a surface during friction testing. After crosslinking in the mold at 60ºC for 1 hour, the finger was treated with UV-Ozone for 8 hours out of the mold to minimize viscoelastic tack.

      Mechanical Testing

      A custom device using our PDMS mock finger was used to collect macroscopic friction force traces replicating human exploration.[8,9] After placing a sample surface on a stage, the finger was lowered at a slight angle such that an initial 1×1 cm rectangle of “fingertip” contact area could be established. We considered a broad range of applied masses (M \= 0, 25, 75, and 100 g) added onto the deadweight of the finger (6 g) observed during a tactile discrimination task. The other side of the sensor was connected to a motorized stage (V-508 PIMag Precision Linear Stage, Physikinstrumente) to control both displacement (4 mm across all conditions) and sliding velocity (v \= 5, 10, 25, and 45 mm s<sup>-1</sup>). Forces were measured at all 16 combinations of mass and velocity via a 250 g Futek force sensor (k \= 13.9 kN m<sup>-1</sup>) threaded to the bone, and recorded at an average sampling rate of 550 Hz with a Keithley 7510 DMM digitized multimeter. Force traces were collected in sets of 4 slides, discarding the first due to contact aging. Because some mass-velocity combinations were near the boundaries of instability phase transitions, not all force traces at these given conditions exhibited similar profiles. Thus, three sets were collected on fresh spots for each condition to observe enough occurrences of multiple instabilities, at a total of nine traces per combination for each surface.”

      Added References

      (23) Infante, V. H. P. et al. The role of skin hydration, skin deformability, and age in tactile friction and perception of materials. Sci. Rep. 15, 9935 (2025).

      (24) Nolin, A., Lo, C.-Y., Kayser, L. V. & Dhong, C. B. Transparent and Electrically Switchable Thin Film Tactile Actuators Based on Molecular Orientation. Preprint at https://doi.org/10.48550/arXiv.2411.07968 (2024).

      (25) Murai, M., Lau, H.-K., Pereira, B. P. & Pho, R. W. H. A cadaver study on volume and surface area of the fingertip. J. Hand Surg. 22, 935–941 (1997).

      (26) Abdouni, A. et al. Biophysical properties of the human finger for touch comprehension: influences of ageing and gender. R. Soc. Open Sci. (2017) doi:10.1098/rsos.170321.

      (27) Cornuault, P.-H., Carpentier, L., Bueno, M.-A., Cote, J.-M. & Monteil, G. Influence of physico-chemical, mechanical and morphological fingerpad properties on the frictional distinction of sticky/slippery surfaces. J. R. Soc. Interface (2015) doi:10.1098/rsif.2015.0495.

      (28) Qian, K. et al. Mechanical properties vary for different regions of the finger extensor apparatus. J. Biomech. 47, 3094–3099 (2014).

      (29) Yuan, Y. & Verma, R. Measuring microelastic properties of stratum corneum. Colloids Surf. B Biointerfaces 48, 6–12 (2006).

      (30) Fu, Y.-J. et al. Effect of UV-Ozone Treatment on Poly(dimethylsiloxane) Membranes: Surface Characterization and Gas Separation Performance. Langmuir 26, 4392–4399 (2010).

      Comment 3, Part 2

      The real finger has multiple layers with different moduli. In fact, the stratum corneum cells, which are the outer layer at the interface and determine the friction, have a much higher modulus than PDMS. The real finger has multiple layers with different moduli. In fact, the stratum corneum cells, which are the outer layer at the interface and determine the friction, have a much higher modulus than PDMS.

      We have approximated the softness of the finger with 100 kPa crosslinked PDMS, which is close to what has been reported for the bulk of a human fingertip.[9,10] However, as mentioned in the Materials and Methods, there are two additional features of the mock finger that impart greater strength. The PDMS surrounds a rigid, acrylic bone comparable to the distal phalanx, which provides an additional layer of higher modulus.[8] Additionally, the 8-hour UV-Ozone treatment decreases the viscoelastic tack of the pristine PDMS by glassifying, or further crosslinking the surface of the finger,[12] therefore imparting greater stiffness at the surface similar to the contributions of the stratum corneum, along with a similar surface energy.[13] This technique is widely used in wearables,[14] soft robotics,[15] and microfluidics[16] to induce both these material changes. Additionally, the finger is used at least a day after UV-Ozone treatment is completed to generate a stable surface that is moderately hydrophilic, similar to the outermost layer of human skin.[17]

      Comment 3, Part 3

      In addition, the slanted position of the finger can cause non-uniform pressures across the finger. Both can contribute to making the PDMS finger have much more stick-slip than a real finger.

      To ensure that there is minimal contribution from the slanted position of the finger, an initial contact area of 1×1 cm is established before sliding and recording friction measurements. As the PDMS finger is a soft object, the portion in contact with a surface flattens and the contact area remains largely unchanged during sliding. Any additional stick-slip after this alignment step is caused by contact aging at the interface, but the first trace we collect is always discarded to only consider stick-slip events caused by surface chemistry. We recognize that it is difficult to completely control the pressure distribution due to the planar interface, but this is also expected when humans freely explore a surface.

      Comment 3, Part 4

      In fact, if you look at the regime maps, there is very little space that has steady sliding. This does not represent well human exploration of surfaces. We do not tend to use a force and velocity that will cause extensive stick-slip (frequent regions of 100% stick-slip) and, in fact, the speeds used in the study are on the slow side, which also contributes to more stick-slip. At higher speeds and lower forces, all of the materials had steady sliding regions.”

      We are not aware of published studies that extensively show that humans avoid stickslip regimes. In fact, we are aware familiar with literature where stiction spike formation is suppressed – a recent paper by AliAbbasi, Basdogan et. al. investigates electroadhesion and friction with NaCl solution-infused interfaces, resulting in significantly steadier forces.[18] We also directly showed evidence of instability formation that we observed during human exploration in Fig. 3B-C. These dynamic events are common, despite the lack of control of normal forces and sliding velocities. We also note that Reviewer 1, Comment 2, Part 2 was suggesting that we further explore possible trends from parameterizing the stiction spike.

      We note that many studies have often not gone at the velocities and masses required for stiction spikes – even though these masses and velocities would be routinely seen in free exploration – this is usually due to constraints of their equipment.[19] Sliding events during human free exploration of surfaces can exceed 100 mm/s for rapid touches. However, for the surfaces investigated here, we observe that large regions of stick-slip can emerge at velocities as low as 5 mm/s depending on the applied load. The incidence of steady sliding appears more dependent on the applied mass, with almost no steady sliding observed at or above 75 g. Indeed, the force categorization along our transition zones is the main point of the paper.

      Comment 3, Part 5

      Further, on these very smooth surfaces, the friction and stiction are more complex and cannot dismiss considerations such as finger material property change with sweat pore occlusion and sweat capillary forces. Also, the vertical motion of both the PDMS finger and the instructed human subjects is not the motion that humans typically use to discriminate between surfaces.

      We did not describe the task sufficiently. Humans were only given the instruction to slide their finger along a single axis from top to bottom of a sample, not vertical as in azimuthal to gravity. We have updated our wording in the manuscript to reflect this.

      Page 4

      “Participants could touch for as long as they wanted, but were asked to only use their dominant index fingers along a single axis to better mimic the conditions for instability formation during mechanical testing with the mock finger.”

      Page 11

      “The participant was then asked to explore each sample simultaneously, and ran over each surface in strokes along a single axis until the participant could decide which of the two had “more friction”.”

      Comment 3, Part 6

      Finally, fingerprints may not affect the shape and size of the contact area, but they certainly do affect the dynamic response and detection of vibrations.”

      We are aware of the nuance. Our previous work on the role of fingerprints on friction experienced by a PDMS mock finger showed enhanced signals with the incorporation of ridges on the finger and used a rate-and-state model of a heterogenous, elastic body to find corresponding trends (though there is no existing model of friction that can accurately model experiments on mesoscale friction).[11] The key conclusion was that a flat finger still preserved key dynamic features, and the presence of stronger or more vibrations could result in more similar forces for different surfaces depending on the sliding conditions.

      This is also in the context that we are seeking to provide a reasonable and experimentally accessible method to characterize surfaces, which will always be better as we get closer in replicating a true human finger. But our goal here was to replicate the finger sufficiently for use in human studies. We believe the more appropriate metric of success is if the mock finger is more successful than replacing traditional characterization experiments, like friction coefficient, roughness, surface energy, etc.

      Comment 4

      This all leads to the critical question, why are friction, normal force, and velocity not measured during the measured human exploration and in a systematic study using the real human finger? The authors posed an extremely interesting hypothesis that humans may alter their speed to feel the instability transition regions. This is something that could be measured with a real finger but is not likely to be correlated accurately enough to match regime boundaries with such a simplified artificial finger.

      We are excited that our manuscript offers a tractable manner to test the hypothesis that tactile decision-making models use friction instabilities as evidence. However, we lay out the challenges and barriers, and how the scope of this paper will lead us in that direction. We also clarify that our goals are to provide a method to characterize samples to better design tactile interfaces in haptics or in psychophysical experiments and raise awareness that the common methods of sample characterization in touch by an average friction coefficient or roughness is fundamentally unsound. Throughout the paper, we have made changes to reflect that our study, at this point, is only correlative.

      As discussed in the summary, and with additional detail here, to further support our findings through observation on humans would require answering:

      (1) Which one, or combination of, of the multiple swipes that people make responsible for a tactile decision? (There is a need for a decision-making model)

      (2) Establish what is, or may be, tactile evidence.

      (3) Establish tactile decision-making models are similar or different than existing decision-making models.

      (4) Design a task that does not require the use of subjective tactile descriptors, like “which one feels rougher”, which we have seen causes confusion in participants, which will likely require accounting for memory effects.

      We elaborate these points below:

      To successfully perform this experiment, we note that freely exploring humans make multiple strokes on a surface. Therefore, we would need to construct a decision-making model. It has not yet been demonstrated whether tactile decision making follows visual decision making, but perhaps to start, we can assume it does. Then, in the design of our decision-making paradigm, we immediately run into the problem: What is tactile evidence?

      From Fig. 3C, we already can see that identifying evidence is challenging. Prior to this manuscript, people may have chosen the average force, or the highest force. Or we may choose the average friction force. Then, after deciding on the evidence, we need to find a method to manipulate the evidence, i.e., create samples or a machine that causes high friction, etc. We show that during the course of human touch, due to the dynamic nature of friction, the average can change a large amount and sample design becomes a central barrier to experiments. Others may suggest immobilizing the finger and applying a known force, but given how much friction changes with human exploration, there is no known method to make a machine recreate temporally and spatially varying friction forces during sliding onto a stationary finger. Finally, perhaps most importantly, in addition to mechanical challenges, a study by Liu, Colgate et al. showed that even if they recorded the friction (2D) of a finger exploring a surface and then replicated the same friction forces onto a finger, the participant could not determine which surface the replayed friction force was supposed to represent.[1] This supports that the efference copy is important, that the forces in response to expected motion are important to determine friction. Finally, there is no known method to design instabilities a priori. They must be found through experiments. Especially since if we were to introduce, say a bump or a trough, then we bring in confounding variables to how participants tell surfaces apart.

      Furthermore, even if we had some consistent method to create tactile “evidence”, the paradigm also deserves some consideration. In our experience, the 3-AFC task we perform is important because the vocabulary for touch has not been established. That is, in 3-AFC, by asking to determine which one sample is unlike the others, we do not have to ask the participant questions like “which one is rougher” or “which one has less friction”. In contrast, 2-AFC, which is better for decision-making models because it does not include memory, requires the asking of a perceptual question like: “which one is rougher?”. In our ongoing work, taking two silane coatings, we found that participants could easily identify which surface is unlike the others above chance in a 3-AFC, but participants, even within their own trials, could not consistently identify one silane as perceptually “rougher” by 2-AFC. To us, this calls into question the validity of tactile descriptors, but is beyond the scope of this manuscript.

      This is not our only goal, but in the context of human exploration, in this manuscript here, we believed it was important to identify a mechanical parameter that was consistent with how humans explore surfaces, but was also a parameter that could characterize to some consistent property of a surface – irrespective of whether a human was touching it. We thought that designing human decision-making models and paradigms around the friction coefficient would not be successful.

      Given the scope of these challenges, we do not think it would be possible to establish these conceptual sequences in a single manuscript. However, we think that our manuscript brings an important step forward to approach this problem.

      Reviewer 2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this paper, the authors want to test the hypothesis that frictional instabilities rather than friction are the main drivers for discriminating flat surfaces of different sub-nanometric roughness profiles.

      They first produced flat surfaces with 6 different coatings giving them unique and various properties in terms of roughness (picometer scale), contact angles (from hydrophilic to hydrophobic), friction coefficient (as measured against a mock finger), and Hurst exponent.

      Then, they used those surfaces in two different experiments. In the first experiment, they used a mock finger (PDMS of 100kPA molded into a fingertip shape) and slid it over the surfaces at different normal forces and speeds. They categorized the sliding behavior as steady sliding, sticking spikes, and slow frictional waves by visual inspection, and show that the surfaces have different behaviors depending on normal force and speed. In a second experiment, participants (10) were asked to discriminate pairs of those surfaces. It is found that each of those pairs could be reliably discriminated by most participants.

      Finally, the participant's discrimination performance is correlated with differences in the physical attributes observed against the mock finger. The authors found a positive correlation between participants' performances and differences in the count of steady sliding against the mock finger and a negative correlation between participants' reaction time and differences in the count of stiction spikes against the mock finger. They interpret those correlations as evidence that participants use those differences to discriminate the surfaces.

      Strengths:

      The created surfaces are very interesting as they are flat at the nanometer scale, yet have different physical attributes and can be reliably discriminated.

      We thank Reviewer 2 for their notes on our manuscript. The responses below address the reviewer’s comments and recommendations for revised work.

      Weaknesses:

      Comment 1

      In my opinion, the data presented in the paper do not support the conclusions. The conclusions are based on a correlation between results obtained on the mock finger and results obtained with human participants but there is no evidence that the human participants' fingertips will behave similarly to the mock finger during the experiment. Figure 3 gives a hint that the 3 sliding behaviors can be observed in a real finger, but does not prove that the human finger will behave as the mock finger, i.e., there is no evidence that the phase maps in Figure 1C are similar for human fingers and across different people that can have very different stiffness and moisture levels.

      We have made changes throughout the manuscript to acknowledge that our findings are correlative, clarifying this throughout, and incorporating into the discussion how our work may enable biomechanical measurements and tactile decision making models.

      The mechanical characterization conducted with the mock finger seeks to extract significant features of friction traces of a set of surfaces to use as predictors of tactile discriminability. The goal is to find a consistent method to characterize surfaces for use in tactile experiments that can be replicated by others and used prior to any human experiments. However, in the overall response and in a response to a similar comment by Reviewer 1 (recreated below), we also explain why we believe experiments on humans to establish this fact is not yet reasonable.

      First, we discuss the mock finger. The PDMS finger is treated to have comparable surface and bulk properties to a human finger. We have approximated the softness of the finger with 100 kPa crosslinked PDMS, which is close to what has been reported for the bulk of a human fingertip.[9,10] However, as mentioned in the Materials and Methods, there are two additional features of the mock finger that impart greater strength. The PDMS surrounds a rigid, acrylic bone comparable to the distal phalanx, which provides an additional layer of higher modulus.[8] Additionally, the 8-hour UV-Ozone treatment decreases the viscoelastic tack of the pristine PDMS by glassifying, or further crosslinking the surface of the finger,[12] therefore imparting greater stiffness at the surface similar to the contributions of the stratum corneum, along with a similar surface energy.[13] Additionally, the finger is used at least a day after UV-Ozone treatment is completed in order for the surface to return to moderate hydrophilicity, similar to the outermost layer of human skin.[17] We also discuss the shape of the contact formed. To ensure that there is minimal contribution from the slanted position of the finger, an initial contact area of 1×1 cm is established before sliding and recording friction measurements. As the PDMS finger is a soft object, the portion in contact with a surface flattens and the contact area remains largely unchanged during sliding. Any additional stick-slip after this alignment step is caused by contact aging at the interface, but the first trace we collect is always discarded to only consider stick-slip events caused by surface chemistry. We recognize that it is difficult to completely control the pressure distribution due to the planar interface, but this is also expected when humans freely explore a surface. Finally, we consider flat vs. fingerprinted fingers. Our previous work on the role of fingerprints on friction experienced by a PDMS mock finger showed enhanced signals with the incorporation of ridges on the finger and used a rate-and-state model of a heterogenous, elastic body to find corresponding trends.[11] The key conclusion was that a flat finger still preserved key dynamic features, and the presence of stronger or more vibrations could result in more similar forces for different surfaces depending on the sliding conditions. We note that we have subsequently used this flat mock finger in correlations with human psychophysics in previous work, where findings from our mechanical experiments were predictive of human performance.[4–7] We have added these details to the manuscript.

      With this adequately similar mock finger, we collected friction traces at controlled conditions of normal force and velocity in order to extract the signals unique to each material that are not caused by the influence of human variability. For example, we observe the smallest regions of steady sliding on our phase maps (Fig. 1C) for short-chain alkylsilanes C4 and C5, while the increased intermolecular forces of other silanes increase the incidence of steady sliding. We have also previously shown that comparisons of similarly collected mechanical data is predictive of human performance, using the crosscorrelations between signals of two different materials.[4–7] While different participants produce different raw signals, we see that broad categories of stick-slip, i.e. instabilities, can be extracted (Fig. 3B-C) and used as a cue in a tactile discrimination task. As mentioned above, we have provided an additional section about the usefulness of our mock finger, as well as its structure, in the main manuscript.

      Second, we lay out the challenges and barriers to demonstrating this in humans in the manner requested by the reviewer, and how the scope of this paper will lead us in that direction. We also clarify that our goals are to provide a method to characterize samples to better design tactile interfaces in haptics or in psychophysical experiments and raise awareness that the common methods of sample characterization in touch by an average friction coefficient or roughness is fundamentally unsound.

      As discussed in the summary, and with additional detail here, to further support our findings through observation on humans would require answering:

      (1) Which one, or combination of, of the multiple swipes that people make responsible for a tactile decision?

      (2) Establish what is, or may be, tactile evidence.

      (3) Establish tactile decision-making models are similar or different than existing decision-making models.

      (4) Test the hypothesis, in these models, that friction instabilities are evidence, and not some other unknown metric.

      (5) Design a task that does not require the use of subjective tactile descriptors, like “which one feels rougher”, which we see cause confusion in participants, which will likely require accounting for memory effects.

      We elaborate these points below:

      To successfully perform this experiment, we note that freely exploring humans make multiple strokes on a surface. Therefore, we would need to construct a decision-making model. It has not yet been demonstrated whether tactile decision making follows visual decision making, but perhaps to start, we can assume it does. Then, in the design of our decision-making paradigm, we immediately run into the problem: What is tactile evidence?

      From Fig. 3C, we already can see that identifying evidence is challenging. Prior to this manuscript, people may have chosen the average force, or the highest force. Or we may choose the average friction force. Then, after deciding on the evidence, we need to find a method to manipulate the evidence, i.e., create samples or a machine that causes high friction, etc. We show that during the course of human touch, due to the dynamic nature of friction, the average can change a large amount and sample design becomes a central barrier to experiments. Others may suggest immobilizing the finger and applying a known force, but given how much friction changes with human exploration, there is no known method to make a machine recreate temporally and spatially varying friction forces during sliding onto a stationary finger. Finally, perhaps most importantly, in addition to mechanical challenges, a study by Liu, Colgate, et al. showed that even if they recorded the friction (2D) of a finger exploring a surface and then replicated the same friction forces onto a finger, the participant could not determine which surface the replayed friction force was supposed to represent.[1] This supports that the efference copy is important, that the forces in response to expected motion are important to determine friction. Finally, there is no known method to design instabilities a priori. They must be found through experiments, especially since if we were to introduce, say a bump or a trough, then we bring in confounding variables to how participants tell surfaces apart.

      Furthermore, even if we had some consistent method to create tactile “evidence”, the paradigm also deserves some consideration. In our experience, the 3-AFC task we perform is important because the vocabulary for touch has not been established. That is, in 3-AFC, by asking to determine which one sample is unlike the others, we do not have to ask the participant questions like “which one is rougher” or “which one has less friction”. In contrast, 2-AFC, which is better for decision-making models because it does not include memory, requires the asking of a perceptual question like: “which one is rougher?”. In our ongoing work, taking two silane coatings, we found that participants could easily identify which surface is unlike the others above chance in a 3-AFC, but participants, even within their own trials, could not consistently identify one silane as perceptually “rougher” by 2-AFC. To us, this calls into question the validity of tactile descriptors, but is beyond the scope of the current manuscript.

      This is not our only goal, but in the context of human exploration, in this manuscript here, we believed it was important to identify a mechanical parameter that was consistent with how humans explore surfaces, but was also a parameter that could characterize to some consistent property of a surface – irrespective of whether a human was touching it. We thought that designing human decision-making models and paradigms around the friction coefficient would not be successful.

      Given the scope of these challenges, we do not think it would be possible to establish this conceptual sequence in a single manuscript.

      See Reviewer 1, comment 3part 3 for changes to the manuscript

      Comment 2

      I believe that the authors collected the contact forces during the psychophysics experiments, so this shortcoming could be solved if the authors use the actual data, and show that the participant responses can be better predicted by the occurrence of frictional instabilities than by the usual metrics on a trial by trial basis, or at least on a subject by subject basis. I.e. Poor performers should show fewer signs of differences in the sliding behaviors than good performers.

      To fully implement this, a decision-making model is necessary because, as a counter example, a participant could have generated 10 swipes of SFW and 1 swipe of a Sp, but the Sp may have been the most important event for making a tactile decision. This type of scenario is not compatible with the analysis suggested — and similar counterpoints can be made for other types of seemingly straightforward analysis.

      While we are interested and actively working on this, the study here is critical to establish types of evidence for a future decision-making model. We know humans change their friction constantly during real exploration, so it is unclear which of these constantly changing values we should input into the decision making model, and the future challenges we anticipate are explained in Weaknesses, Comment 1.

      Comment 3

      The sample size (10) is very small.

      We recognize that, with all factors being equal, this sample size is on the smaller end. However, we emphasize the degree of control of samples is far above typical, with minimal variations in sample properties such as surface roughness, and every sample for every trial was pristine. Furthermore, the sample preparation (> 300 individual wafers were used) became a factor. Although not typically appropriate, and thus not included in the manuscript, a post-hoc power analysis for our 100 trials of our pair that was closest to chance, P4, (53%, closest to chance at 33%) showed a power of 98.2%, suggesting that the study was appropriately powered.

      Reviewer 2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Comment 1

      Differences in SS and Sp (Table 2) are NOT physical or mechanical differences but are obtained by counting differences in the number of occurrences of each sliding behavior. It is rather a weird choice.

      We disagree that differences in SS and Sp are not physical or mechanical, as these are well-established phenomena in the soft matter and tribology literature.[20–22] These are known as “mechanical instabilities” and generated due to the effects of two physical phenomena: the elasticity of the finger (which is constant in our mechanical testing) and the friction forces present (which change per sample type). The motivation behind using these different shapes is that the instabilities, in some conditions, can be invariant to external factors like velocity. This would be quite advantageous for human exploration because, unlike friction coefficient, which changes with nearly any factor, including velocity and mass, the instabilities being invariant to velocity would mean that we are accurately characterizing a unique identifier of the surface even though velocity may be variable.

      This “weird choice” is the central innovation of this paper. This choice was necessary because we demonstrated that the common usage of friction coefficient is fundamentally flawed: we see that friction coefficient suggests that surface which are more different would feel more similar – indeed the most distinctive surfaces would be two surfaces that are identical, which is clearly spurious. Furthermore, Table 1 now includes the range of friction generated on a surface, the range of friction coefficients of a single surface is large – of order the differences in friction between two surfaces. This is expected in soft sliding systems and emphasizes our issue with the use of average friction coefficient in psychophysical design. One potential explanation for why we were able to see this is effect is because our surfaces have similar (< 0.6 nm variability) roughness, removing potential confounding factors from large scale roughness, and this type of low roughness control has not been widely used in tactile studies to the best of our knowledge.

      Comment 2

      Figures 2B-C: why are the x-data different than Table 2?

      The x-data in Fig. 2B-C are the absolute differences in the number of occurrences measured for a given instability type or material property out of 144 pulls. Modeling the human participant results in our GLMMs required the independent variables to be in this form rather than percentages. We initially chose to list percent differences in Table 2 to highlight the ranges of differences instead of an absolute value, but have added both for clarity.

      Our changes to the manuscript

      Page 7

      “To determine if humans can detect these three different instabilities, we selected six pairs of surfaces to create a broad range of potential instabilities present across all three types. These are summarized in Table 2, where the first column for each instability is the difference in occurrence of that instability formed between each pair, and the second is the percent difference.”

      “Thus, when comparing C4 versus C4-APTMS, they have a difference in steady sliding of 20 out of a maximum 144 pulls, for a |ΔSS| of 13.9%. The absolute value is taken to compare total differences present, as the psychophysical task does not distinguish between sample order.”

      Comment 3

      We constructed a set of coated surfaces with physical differences which were imperceptible by touch but created different types of instabilities based on how quickly a finger is slid and how hard a human finger is pressed during sliding." Yet, in your experiment, participants could discriminate them, so this is incoherent.

      To clarify the point, macroscopic objects can differ in physical shape and in chemical composition. What we meant was that the physical differences, i.e., roughness, were below a limit (Skedung et al.) that participants, without a coating, would not be able to tell these apart.[23] Therefore, the reason people could tell our surfaces apart was due to the chemical composition of the surface, and not any differences in roughness or physical effects like film stiffness (due to the molecular-scale thinness of the surface coatings, they are mechanically negligible). However, we concede that at the molecular scale, the traditional macroscopic distinction between physical and chemical is blurred.

      We have made minor revisions to the wording in the abstract. We clarify that the surface coatings had physical differences in roughness that were smaller than 0.6 nm, which based purely on roughness, would not be expected to be distinguishable to participants. Therefore, the reason participants can tell these surfaces apart is due to differences in friction generated by chemical composition, and we were able to minimize contributions from physical differences in the sample our study.

      Our changes to the manuscript

      Page 1, Abstract

      “Here, we constructed a set of coated surfaces with minimal physical differences that by themselves, are not perceptible to people, but instead, due to modification in surface chemistry, the surfaces created different types of instabilities based on how quickly a finger is slid and how hard a human finger is pressed during sliding.”

      “In one experiment, we used a mechanical mock finger to quantify and classify differences in instability formation from different coated surfaces. In a second experiment, participants perform a discrimination task using the same coated surfaces. Using the data from these two experiments, we found that human discrimination response times were faster with surfaces where the mock finger produced more stiction spikes and discrimination accuracy was higher where the mock finger produced more steady sliding. Conversely, traditional metrics like surface roughness or average friction coefficient did not relate to tactile discriminability. In fact, the typical method of averaging friction coefficients led to a spurious correlation which erroneously suggests that distinct objects should feel identical and identical objects should feel distinct—similar to findings by others. Friction instabilities may offer a more predictive and tractable framework of fine touch perception than friction coefficients, which would accelerate the design of tactile interfaces.”

      Reviewer 3 (Public review):

      Strengths

      The paper describes a new perspective on friction perception, with the hypothesis that humans are sensitive to the instabilities of the surface rather than the coefficient of friction. The paper is very well written and with a comprehensive literature survey.

      One of the central tools used by the author to characterize the frictional behavior is the frictional instabilities maps. With these maps, it becomes clear that two different surfaces can have both similar and different behavior depending on the normal force and the speed of exploration. It puts forward that friction is a complicated phenomenon, especially for soft materials.

      The psychophysics study is centered around an odd-one-out protocol, which has the advantage of avoiding any external reference to what would mean friction or texture for example. The comparisons are made only based on the texture being similar or not.

      The results show a significant relationship between the distance between frictional maps and the success rate in discriminating two kinds of surface.

      We thank Reviewer 3 for their notes and interesting discussion points on our manuscript. Below, we address the reviewer’s feedback and comments on related works.

      Weaknesses:

      Comment 1

      The main weakness of the paper comes from the fact that the frictional maps and the extensive psychophysics study are not made at the same time, nor with the same finger. The frictional maps are produced with an artificial finger made out of PDMS which is a poor substitute for the complex tribological properties of skin.

      A similar comment was made by Reviewers 1 and 2. We agree in part and have made changes throughout that our study is correlative, but presents an important step forward to these biomechanical measurements and corresponding decision making models.

      We are not claiming that our PDMS fingers are superior to real fingers, but rather, we cannot establish standards in the field by using real human fingers that vary between subjects and researchers. We believe the mock finger we designed is a reasonable mimic of the human finger by matching surface energy, heterogeneous mechanical structure, and the ability to test multiple physiologically relevant pressures and sliding velocities.

      We achieve a heterogeneous mechanical structure with the 3 primary components of stiffness of a human finger. The effective modulus of ~100 kPa, from soft tissue,[9,10] is obtained with a 30:1 ratio of PDMS to crosslinker. The PDMS also surrounds a rigid, acrylic bone comparable to the distal phalanx, which provides an additional layer of higher modulus.[8] Additionally, the 8-hour UV-Ozone treatment decreases the viscoelastic tack of the pristine PDMS by glassifying, or further crosslinking the surface of the finger,[12] therefore imparting greater stiffness at the surface similar to the contributions of the stratum corneum, along with a similar surface energy.[13] The finger is used at least a day after UV-Ozone treatment is completed in order for the surface to return to moderate hydrophilicity, similar to the outermost layer of human skin.[17] We also discuss the shape of the contact formed. To ensure that there is minimal contribution from the slanted position of the finger, an initial contact area of 1×1 cm is established before sliding and recording friction measurements. As the PDMS finger is a soft object, the portion in contact with a surface flattens and the contact area remains largely unchanged during sliding. We recognize that it is difficult to completely control the pressure distribution due to the planar interface, but this variation is also expected when humans freely explore a surface. Finally, we consider flat vs. fingerprinted fingers. Our previous work on the role of fingerprints on friction experienced by a PDMS mock finger showed enhanced signals with the incorporation of ridges on the finger and used a rate-andstate model of a heterogenous, elastic body to find corresponding trends.[11] The key conclusion was that a flat finger still preserved key dynamic features, and the presence of stronger or more vibrations could result in more similar forces for different surfaces depending on the sliding conditions. We note that we have subsequently used the controlled mechanical data collected with this flat mock finger in correlations with human psychophysics in previous work, where findings from our mechanical experiments were predictive of human performance.[4–7] Ultimately, we see from our prior work and here that, despite the drawbacks of our mock finger, it outperforms other standard characterization technique in providing information about the mesoscale that correlates to tactile perception. We have added these details to the manuscript.

      We also note that an intermediate option, replicating real fingers, even in a mold, may also inadvertently limit trends from characterization to a specific finger. One of the main – and severe – limitations of using a human finger is that all fingers are different, meaning any study focusing on a particular user may not apply to others or be recreated easily by other researchers. We cannot set a standard for replication around a real human finger as that participant may no longer be available, or willing to travel the world as a “standard”. Furthermore, the method in which a single person changes their pressures and velocities as they touch a surface is highly variable. We also note that in the Summary Response, we noted that a study by Colgate et al. (IEEE ToH 2024) demonstrated that efference copies may be important, and thus constraining a human finger and replaying the forces recorded during free exploration will not lead to the participant identifying a surface with any consistency. Thus, it is important to allow humans to freely explore surfaces, but creates nearly limitless variability in friction forces.

      This is also against the backdrop that we are seeking to provide a method to characterize surfaces. Indeed, the more features we replicate in the mock finger to a human finger, the more likely it is that the mechanical data will correlate to human performance. However, we have used this technique several times to achieve stronger correlations to human data than other available techniques. We believe the metric of success should be in comparison to the available characterization technique, rather than a 1:1 reconstruction of forces of an arbitrary human finger. Indeed, a 1:1 reconstruction of forces of an arbitrary human finger would be limited to the finger of a single individual, perhaps even to that individual on a given day.

      See Reviewer1 weaknesses, comment 2 part 2 for changes to the manuscript

      Comment 2

      The evidence would have been much stronger if the measurement of the interaction was done during the psychophysical experiment. In addition, because of the protocol, the correlation is based on aggregates rather than on individual interactions.

      We agree that this would have helped further establish our argument, but in the overall statement and in other reviewer responses, we describe the significant challenges to establishing this.

      To fully implement this, a decision-making model is necessary because, as a counter example, a participant could have generated 10 swipes of SFW and 1 swipe of a Sp, but the Sp may have been the most important event for making a tactile decision. We also clarify that our goals are to provide a method to characterize samples to better design tactile interfaces in haptics or in psychophysical experiments.

      As discussed in the summary, and expanded on here, in our view, to develop a decision-making model, the challenges are as follows:

      (1) Which one, or combination of, of the multiple swipes that people make responsible for a tactile decision?

      (2) Establish what is, or may be, tactile evidence.

      (3) Establish tactile decision-making models are similar or different than existing decision-making models.

      (4) Test the hypothesis, in these models, that friction instabilities are evidence, and not some other unknown metric.

      (5) Design a task that does not require the use of subjective tactile descriptors, like “which one feels rougher”, which we see cause confusion in participants, which will likely require accounting for memory effects.

      (6) Design samples that vary in the amount of evidence generated, but this evidence cannot be controlled directly. Rather, the samples indirectly vary evidence by how likely it is for a human to generate different types of friction instabilities during standard exploration.

      We elaborate these points below:

      To successfully perform this experiment, we note that freely exploring humans make multiple strokes on a surface. Therefore, we would need to construct a decision-making model. It has not yet been demonstrated whether tactile decision making follows visual decision making, but perhaps to start, we can assume it does. Then, in the design of our decision-making paradigm, we immediately run into the problem: What is tactile evidence?

      From Fig. 3C, we already can see that identifying evidence is challenging. Prior to this manuscript, people may have chosen the average force, or the highest force. Or we may choose the average friction force. Then, after deciding on the evidence, we need to find a method to manipulate the evidence, i.e., create samples or a machine that causes high friction, etc. We show that during the course of human touch, due to the dynamic nature of friction, the average can change a large amount and sample design becomes a central barrier to experiments. Others may suggest to immobilize the finger and applying a known force, but given how much friction changes with human exploration, there is no known method to make a machine recreate temporally and spatially varying friction forces during sliding onto a stationary finger. Finally, perhaps most importantly, in addition to mechanical challenges, a study by Liu, Colgate et al. showed that even if they recorded the friction (2D) of a finger exploring a surface and then replicated the same friction forces onto a finger, the participant could not determine which surface the replayed friction force was supposed to represent.[1] This supports that the efference copy is important, that the forces in response to expected motion are important to determine friction. Finally, there is no known method to design instabilities a priori. They must be found through experiments, especially since if we were to introduce, say a bump or a trough, then we bring in confounding variables to how participants tell surfaces apart.

      Furthermore, even if we had some consistent method to create tactile “evidence”, the paradigm also deserves some consideration. In our experience, the 3-AFC task we perform is important because the vocabulary for touch has not been established. That is, in 3-AFC, by asking to determine which one sample is unlike the others, we do not have to ask the participant questions like “which one is rougher” or “which one has less friction”. In contrast, 2-AFC, which is better for decision-making models because it does not include memory, requires the asking of a perceptual question like: “which one is rougher?”. In our ongoing work, taking two silane coatings, we found that participants could easily identify which surface is unlike the others above chance in a 3-AFC, but participants, even within their own trials, could not consistently identify one silane as perceptually “rougher” by 2-AFC. To us, this calls into question the validity of tactile descriptors, but is beyond the scope of the current manuscript.

      This is not our only goal, but in the context of human exploration, in this manuscript here, we believed it was important to identify a mechanical parameter that was consistent with how humans explore surfaces, but was also a parameter that could characterize to some consistent property of a surface – irrespective of whether a human was touching it. We thought that designing human decision-making models and paradigms around the friction coefficient would not be successful.

      Given the scope of these challenges, we do not think it would be possible to establish this conceptual sequence in a single manuscript.

      Comment 3

      The authors compensate with a third experiment where they used a 2AFC protocol and an online force measurement. But the results of this third study, fail to convince the relation.

      With this experiment, our central goal was to demonstrate that the instabilities we have identified with the PDMS finger also occur with a human finger. Several instances of SS, Sp, and SFW were recorded with this setup as a participant touched surfaces in real time.

      Comment 4

      No map of the real finger interaction is shown, bringing doubt to the validity of the frictional map for something as variable as human fingers.

      Real fingers change constantly during exploration, and friction is state-dependent, meaning that the friction will depend on how the person was moving the moment prior. Therefore, a map is only valid for a single human movement – even if participants all were instructed to take a single swipe and start from zero motion, humans are unable to maintain constant velocities and pressures. Clearly, this is not sustainable for any analysis, and these drawbacks apply to any measured parameter, whether instabilities suggested here, or friction coefficients used throughout. We believe the difficulty of this approach emphasizes why a standard map of characterization of a surface by a mock finger, even with its drawbacks, is a viable path forward.

      Reviewer 3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Comment 1

      It would be interesting to comment on a potential connection between the frictional instability maps and Schalamack waves.

      Schallamach waves are a subset of slow frictional waves (SFW). Schallamach waves are very specifically defined in the field. They occur when pockets of air that form between a soft sliding object and rigid surface which then propagate rear-to-front (retrograde waves) relative to motion of the sliding motion and form buckles due to adhesive pinning. Wrinkles then form at the detached portion of the soft material, until the interface reattaches and the process repeats.[24] There is typically a high burden of proof to establish a Schallamach wave over a more general slow frictional wave. We note that it would be exceedingly difficult to design samples that can reliably create subsets of SFW, but we are aware that this may be an interesting question at a future point in our work.

      Comment 2

      The force sensors look very compliant, and given the dynamic nature of the signal, it is important to characterize the frequency response of the system to make sure that the fluctuations are not amplified.

      Thank you for noticing. We mistyped the sensor spring constant as 13.9 N m<sup>-1</sup> instead of kN m<sup>-1</sup>. However, below we show how the instabilities are derived from the mechanics at the interface due to the compliance of the finger. The “springs” of the force sensor and PDMS finger are connected in parallel. Since k<sub>sensor</sub> = 13.9 kN m<sup>-1</sup>, the spring constant of the system overall reflects the compliance of the finger, and highlights the oscillations arising solely from stick-slip. A sample calculation is shown below.

      Author response image 1.

      Fitting a line to the initial slope of the force trace for C6 gives the equation y = 25.679x – 0.2149. The slope here represents force data over time data, and is divided by the velocity (25 mm/s) to determine the spring constant of the system k<sub>total</sub> == 1027.16 N/m. This value is lower than k<sub>sensor</sub> = 13.9 kN/m, indicating that the “springs” representing the force sensor and PDMS finger are connected in parallel:

      . The finger is the compliant component of the system, with k<sub>finger</sub> = 1.11 kN/m, and of course, real human fingers are also compliant so this matches our goals with the design of the mock finger.

      Our changes to the manuscript

      (Page 4) (k = 13.9 kN m<sup>1</sup>)

      Comment 3

      The authors should discuss about the stochastic nature of friction: - Wiertlewski, Hudin, Hayward, IEEE WHC 2011 Greenspon, McLellan, Lieber, Bensmaia, JRSI 2020.

      We believe that, given the references, this comment on “stochastic” refers to the macroscopically-observable fluctuations (i.e., the mechanical “noise” which is not due to instrument noise) in friction arising from the discordant network of stick-slip phenomena occurring throughout the contact zone, and not the stochastic nature of nanoscale friction that occurs thermal fluctuations nor due to statistical distributions in bond breaking associated with soft contact.

      We first note that our small-scale fluctuations do not arise from a periodic surface texture that dominates in the frequency regime. However, even on our comparatively smooth surfaces, we do expect fluctuations due to nanoscale variation in contact, generation of stick-slip across at microscale length scales that occur either concurrently or discordantly across the contact zone, and the nonlinear dependence of friction to nearly any variation in state and composition.[11]

      Perhaps the most relevant to the manuscript is that a major advantage of analysis by friction is that it sidesteps these ever-present microscale fluctuations, leading to more clearly defined classifiers or categories during analysis. Wiertlewski et. al. showed repeated measurements in their systems ultimately gave rise to consistent frequencies[25] (we think their system was in a steady sliding regime and the patterning gave rise to underlying macroscopic waves). These consistent frequencies, at least in soft systems and absent obvious macroscopic patterned features, would be expected to arise from the instability categories and we see them throughout.

      Comment 4

      It is stated that "we observed a spurious, negative correlation between friction coefficient and accuracy".

      What makes you qualify that correlation as spurious?

      We mean this as in the statistical definition of “spurious”.

      This correlation would indicate that by the metric of friction coefficient, more different surfaces are perceived more similarly. Thus, two very different surfaces, like Teflon and sandpaper, by friction coefficient would be expected to feel very similar. Two nearly identical surfaces would be expected to feel very different – but of course, humans cannot consistently distinguish two identical surfaces. This finding is counterintuitive and refutes that friction coefficient is a reliable classifier of surfaces by touch. We do not think it is productive to determine a mechanism for a spurious correlation, but perhaps one reason we were able to observe this is because our study, to the best of our knowledge, is unique for having samples that are controlled in their physical differences in roughness and surface features.

      See response to Reviewer 1 weaknesses, comment 1 for changes to the manuscript

      Comment 5

      The authors should comment on the influence of friction on perceptual invariance. Despite inducing radially different frictional behavior for various conditions, these surfaces are stably perceived. Maybe this is a sign that humans extract a different metric?

      We agree – we are excited that frictional instabilities may offer a more stable perceptual cue because they are not prone to fluctuations (as discussed in Comment 3) and instability formation, in many conditions, is invariant to applied pressures and velocities – thus forming large zones where a human may reasonable encounter a given instability.

      Raw friction is highly prone to variation during human exploration (in alignment with Recommendations for the authors, Comment 3), but ongoing work seeks to explain tactile constancy, or the ability to identify objects despite these large changes in force. Very recently published work by Fehlberg et. al. identified the role of modulating finger speed and normal force in amplifying the differences in friction coefficient between materials in order to identify them,[26] and we postulate that their work may be streamlined and consistent with the idea of friction instabilities, though we have not had a chance to discuss this in-depth with the authors yet.

      We think that the instability maps show a viable path forward to how surfaces are stably perceived, and instabilities themselves show a potential mechanism: mathematically, instabilities for given conditions can be invariant to velocity or mass, creating zones where a certain instability is encountered. This reduces the immense variability of friction to a smaller, more stable classification of surfaces (e.g., a 30% SS surface or a 60% SS surface). A given surface will typically produce the same instability at a specific condition (we found some boundaries of experimental parameters are very condition sensitive, but many conditions are not), whereas a single friction trace which is highly prone to variation is not a stable metric.

      Added Reference

      (53) M. Fehlberg, E. Monfort, S. Saikumar, K. Drewing and R. Bennewitz, IEEE Trans. Haptics, 2024, 17, 957–963.

      References

      (1) Liu, Z., Kim, J.-T., Rogers, J. A., Klatzky, R. L. & Colgate, J. E. Realism of Tactile Texture Playback: A Combination of Stretch and Vibration. IEEE Trans. Haptics 17, 441–450 (2024).

      (2) Waters, I., Alazmani, A. & Culmer, P. Engineering Incipient Slip Into Surgical Graspers to Enhance Grasp Performance. IEEE Transactions on Medical Robotics and Bionics 2, 541–544 (2020).

      (3) Gueorguiev, D., Bochereau, S., Mouraux, A., Hayward, V. & Thonnard, J.-L. Touch uses frictional cues to discriminate flat materials. Sci Rep 6, 25553 (2016).

      (4) Carpenter, C. W. et al. Human ability to discriminate surface chemistry by touch. Mater. Horiz. 5, 70– 77 (2018).

      (5) Nolin, A. et al. Predicting human touch sensitivity to single atom substitutions in surface monolayers for molecular control in tactile interfaces. Soft Matter 17, 5050–5060 (2021).

      (6) Nolin, A. et al. Controlling fine touch sensations with polymer tacticity and crystallinity. Soft Matter 18, 3928–3940 (2022).

      (7) Swain, Z. et al. Self-Assembled Thin Films as Alternative Surface Textures in Assistive Aids with Users Who are Blind. J. Mater. Chem. B (2024) doi:10.1039/D4TB01646G.

      (8) Qian, K. et al. Mechanical properties vary for different regions of the finger extensor apparatus. J Biomech 47, 3094–3099 (2014).

      (9) Abdouni, A. et al. Biophysical properties of the human finger for touch comprehension: influences of ageing and gender. Royal Society Open Science (2017) doi:10.1098/rsos.170321.

      (10) Cornuault, P.-H., Carpentier, L., Bueno, M.-A., Cote, J.-M. & Monteil, G. Influence of physicochemical, mechanical and morphological fingerpad properties on the frictional distinction of sticky/slippery surfaces. Journal of The Royal Society Interface (2015) doi:10.1098/rsif.2015.0495.

      (11) Dhong, C. et al. Role of fingerprint-inspired relief structures in elastomeric slabs for detecting frictional differences arising from surface monolayers. Soft Matter 14, 7483–7491 (2018).

      (12) Fu, Y.-J. et al. Effect of UV-Ozone Treatment on Poly(dimethylsiloxane) Membranes: Surface Characterization and Gas Separation Performance. Langmuir 26, 4392–4399 (2010).

      (13) Yuan, Y. & Verma, R. Measuring microelastic properties of stratum corneum. Colloids Surf B Biointerfaces 48, 6–12 (2006).

      (14) Yu, G. et al. A wearable pressure sensor based on ultra-violet/ozone microstructured carbon nanotube/polydimethylsiloxane arrays for electronic skins. Nanotechnology 29, 115502 (2018).

      (15) Zheng, L. et al. Dual-Stimulus Smart Actuator and Robot Hand Based on a Vapor-Responsive PDMS Film and Triboelectric Nanogenerator. ACS Appl. Mater. Interfaces 11, 42504–42511 (2019).

      (16) Ma, K., Rivera, J., Hirasaki, G. J. & Biswal, S. L. Wettability control and patterning of PDMS using UV–ozone and water immersion. Journal of Colloid and Interface Science 363, 371–378 (2011).

      (17) Mavon, A. et al. Sebum and stratum corneum lipids increase human skin surface free energy as determined from contact angle measurements: A study on two anatomical sites. Colloids and Surfaces B: Biointerfaces 8, 147–155 (1997).

      (18) AliAbbasi, E. et al. Effect of Finger Moisture on Tactile Perception of Electroadhesion. IEEE Trans. Haptics 17, 841–849 (2024).

      (19) Corniani, G. et al. Sub-surface deformation of individual fingerprint ridges during tactile interactions.

      eLife 13, (2024).

      (20) Israelachvili, J. N. Intermolecular and Surface Forces. (Academic Press, 2011).

      (21) Das, S. et al. Stick–slip friction of gecko-mimetic flaps on smooth and rough surfaces. J R Soc Interface 12, 20141346 (2015).

      (22) Persson, B. N. J., Albohr, O., Creton, C. & Peveri, V. Contact area between a viscoelastic solid and a hard, randomly rough, substrate. The Journal of Chemical Physics 120, 8779–8793 (2004).

      (23) Skedung, L. et al. Feeling Small: Exploring the Tactile Perception Limits. Sci Rep 3, 2617 (2013).

      (24) Viswanathan, K., Sundaram, N. K. & Chandrasekar, S. Stick-slip at soft adhesive interfaces mediated by slow frictional waves. Soft Matter 12, 5265–5275 (2016).

      (25) Wiertlewski, M., Hudin, C. & Hayward, V. On the 1/f noise and non-integer harmonic decay of the interaction of a finger sliding on flat and sinusoidal surfaces. in 2011 IEEE World Haptics Conference 25–30 (2011). doi:10.1109/WHC.2011.5945456.

      (26) Fehlberg, M., Monfort, E., Saikumar, S., Drewing, K. & Bennewitz, R. Perceptual Constancy in the Speed Dependence of Friction During Active Tactile Exploration. IEEE Transactions on Haptics 17, 957–963 (2024).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Introduction to the revised manuscript:

      We thank all three reviewers for their time and insightful comments on our original submission. We are submitting a substantially revised manuscript that includes several new experiments, analyses, discussion points, and clarifications that we believe address all of the main concerns of the reviewers.

      To address the request of Reviewers 2 and 3 to reinforce key findings in a more physiologically intact preparation, we performed recordings of YH-HET SST neurons in brain slices and found that these neurons show impairments in AP generation similar to those observed in YH-HET SST cultured neurons. These data are summarized in a new figure (Fig. 9). Along these lines, we performed additional recordings in cultured neurons at room temperature compared with physiological temperature and found that WT and YH-HET PV neuronal properties were similarly altered by temperature increases, suggesting that our YH variant-induced neuronal phenotypes are not temperature dependent. These data are shown in a new supplemental figure (Supplemental Fig. 4-3). To address concerns of Reviewer 1 regarding our KNa and NaP current recordings, we performed new experiments to further assess the specificity of the VU170 blocker in KNa KO neurons (summarized in Supplemental Fig. 5-2) and to better characterize the time course over which TTX blocks the persistent Na+ current and the KNa current (summarized in Supplemental Fig. 7-1). These latter two experiments provide further clarity and confidence in the accuracy of our measurements of both KNa and NaP currents. Lastly, to address the concern of Reviewer 3 regarding statistical analyses of the modeling data, we’ve added a new table with the results of a repeated measures ANOVA analysis (Supplemental Table 6), and two new figures illustrating the relative changes in each neuron group compared to their controls (Supplemental Figures 6-2 and 7-2). 

      In addition to the new experiments and analyses, we’ve added three new paragraphs to the Discussion section. As the hyperexcitability phenotype in YH-HET PV neurons is somewhat unexpected, we’ve added a paragraph comparing our findings with those found in PV neurons in another KCNT1 GOF model. We’ve also added a paragraph to speculate on the contribution of YH-HET variant-induced alterations in SST and PV neurons to network behavior and seizure propensity. Lastly, we’ve added a paragraph to include the additional limitations and caveats of our study requested by the reviewers.  

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript reports the effects of a heterozygous mutation in the KCNT1 potassium channels on the properties of ion currents and the firing behavior of excitatory and inhibitory neurons in the cortex of mice expressing KCNT1-Y777H. In humans, this mutation as well as multiple other heterozygotic mutations produce very severe early-onset seizures and produce a major disruption of all intellectual function. In contrast, in mice, this heterozygous mutation appears to have no behavioral phenotype or any increased propensity to seizures.

      Regarding the last sentence above, we wanted to clarify a point that we neglected to emphasize in the initial submission. In the Results section from our previous paper (Shore et al., 2020), we failed to observe seizures in 14 heterozygous mice, whereas 23/25 homozygous mice showed seizures by video-EEG. However, in the fifth paragraph of the Discussion section from that paper, we further stated that “during the preparation and review of [that] article, we observed seizures in two Kcnt1-Y777H heterozygous mice, one during a widefield Ca2+ imaging experiment and the other during a video-EEG experiment”. Thus, we concluded that “heterozygous expression can result in seizures in a rodent model, but apparently at a much lower frequency than that observed with homozygous expression”. To emphasize these findings, we’ve added a sentence to the Introduction in this manuscript about the occurrence of infrequent seizures in Kcnt1-Y777H heterozygous mice, along with a reference to the Discussion of our previous paper.

      A relevant phenotype is, however, evident in mice with the homozygous mutation, and the authors have previously published the results of similar experiments with the homozygotes. As perhaps expected, the neuronal effects of the heterozygous mutation presented in this manuscript are generally similar but markedly smaller than the previously published findings on homozygotes. There are, however, some interesting differences, particularly on PV+ interneurons, which appear to be more excitable than wild type in the heterozygotes but more excitable in the heterozygotes. This raises the interesting question (which could be more explicitly discussed by the authors) as to whether the reported changes represent homeostatic events that suppress the seizure phenotype in the mouse heterozygotes or simply changes in excitability that do not reach the threshold for behavioral outcomes.

      That is an interesting question. We have added a new paragraph to the Discussion speculating about whether the alterations in SST and PV excitability suppress seizures or do not reach the threshold for behavioral outcomes. This seems to be requested by the second reviewer as well in Weaknesses point #2.

      Strengths and Weaknesses:

      (1) The authors find that the heterozygous mutation in PV+ interneurons increases their excitability, a result that is opposite from their previous observation in neurons with the corresponding homozygous mutation.

      We would like to provide a minor clarification to the above statement that, in this manuscript, we show that “the heterozygous mutation in PV+ interneurons increases their excitability, a result that is opposite from their previous observation in neurons with the corresponding homozygous mutation”. In our previous manuscript, we assessed YH-HOM phenotypes in NFS and FS GABAergic neurons, but did not specifically mark PV neurons. Although the YH-HOM FS neurons showed an increase in rheobase and a decrease in AP firing, the magnitudes of these effects were far less than those observed in the NFS population. More importantly, the FS GABAergic population likely consists of PV- and SST-expressing neurons; thus, we can not directly compare the results from the NFS and FS groups to the PV and SST groups, respectively (please see our response to Weaknesses point #3, Reviewer #2). We apologize for the confusion.

      They propose that this results from the selective upregulation of a persistent sodium current INaP in the PV+ interneurons. While the observations are very interesting, there are three issues concerning this interpretation that should be addressed:

      A) The protocol for measuring the INaP current could potentially lead to results that could be (mis)interpreted in different ways in different cells. First, neither K currents nor Ca currents are blocked in these experiments. Instead, TTX is applied to the cells relatively rapidly (within 1 second) and the ramp protocol is applied immediately thereafter. It is stated that, at this time, Na currents and INaP are fully blocked but that any effects on Na-activated K currents are minimal. In theory, this would allow the pre- to post-difference current to represent a relatively uncontaminated INaP. This would, however, only work if activation of KNa currents following Na entry is very slow, taking many seconds. A good deal of literature has suggested that the kinetics of activation of KNa currents by Na influx vary substantially between cell types, such that single action potentials and single excitatory synaptic events rapidly evoke KNa currents in some cell types. This is, of course, much faster than the time of TTX application. Most importantly, the kinetics of KNa activation may be different in different neuronal types, which would lead to errors that could produce different estimates of INaP in PV+ interneurons vs other cell types.

      First, we’d like to point out that we did not want to block K+ currents (which would also block KNa) when measuring INaP for these experiments, because our hypothesis was that the increased KNa current in YH-HET PV neurons was somehow causing an increase in INaP, and it is possible that this increase depends on an intact KNa. Thus, we decided to use a method based on the observation in our experiments, and previously made by others (Budelli et al., 2009), that the reduction of outward current after TTX addition is slow relative to the rapid reduction in Na+ current. We understand and agree with the reviewer that, if KNa currents were blocked more quickly by TTX in some neuron types than others, then our estimate of INaP using this method would be contaminated in these neuron types, which would lead to inaccurate measurements. To assess this possibility among the main neuron types used in this study, we performed new experiments in which we monitored the time course of INaP block and subsequent IKNa loss following TTX application in PV and SST neurons during slow voltage ramps. We note that action potentials are not present in the slow voltage ramps due to inactivation of the transient Na+ current. These new experiments show that, in SST and PV (both WT and Het) neurons, the block of INaP is nearly complete at the 6s time point, whereas the decay in IKNa is far slower (V50 of ≈ 25s), and importantly, these results do not differ substantially by cell type or genotype. These data suggest that our measurements of INaP are not significantly contaminated by IKNa, and that this method allows for the effective separation of these two currents. These data have been added as a supplemental figure (Supplemental Fig. 7-1) and are briefly described and referenced in the Results section.

      B) As the authors recognize, INaP current provides a major source of cytoplasmic sodium ions for the activation. An expected outcome of increased INaP is, therefore, further activation of KNa currents, rather than a compensatory increase in an inward current that counteracts the increase in KNa currents, as is suggested in the discussion.

      We agree that the increase in INaP could theoretically further increase IKNa, as veratridine was previously shown to increase IKNa (Hage & Salkoff, 2012). However, we do not believe that this would necessarily be the case, because as the reviewer notes in their next comment, there is insufficient information on the relative locations of the INaP and KCNT1 channels, as well as the kinetics of sodium transfer to KCNT1 channels, and even less is known in the context of KCNT GOF neurons. Thus, there are a couple of plausible reasons that increased INaP may not alter KNa currents in YH-HET PV neurons: (1) In YH-HET PV neurons, the particular sodium channels that are responsible for the increased INaP may not be located within close proximity to the KCNT1 channels. (2) Homeostatic mechanisms that alter the AIS length, or move the AIS further from the soma, in response to altered neuronal excitability are well described (Grubb & Burrone, 2010; Kuba et al., 2010); thus, it is possible that in YH-HET PV neurons, the length or location of the AIS is altered, leading to uncoupling of the sodium channels that are responsible for the increased INaP to the KCNT1 channels.

      C) Numerical simulations, in general, provide a very useful way to evaluate the significance of experimental findings. Nevertheless, while the in-silico modeling suggests that increases in INaP can increase firing rate in models of PV+ neurons, there is as yet insufficient information on the relative locations of the INaP channels and the kinetics of sodium transfer to KNa channels to evaluate the validity of this specific model.

      We completely agree; thus, we have described each of these limitations in the Discussion. We state that the model neurons may “lack more detailed features of ion channels, such as post-translational modifications and subcellular localizations”, and that our KCNT1 model conductance is “hampered by an incomplete understanding of the relationship between Na+ influx, membrane voltage, and channel gating in neurons”.  

      (2) The greatest effect of TTX application would be expected to be the elimination of large transient inward sodium currents. Why are no such currents visible in the control (pre-TTX) or the difference currents (Fig. 2)? Is it possible I missed something in the methods?

      We apologize for the confusion and our mistake in failing to mention this important feature of the displayed traces. To include all of the representative traces in the figures, and prevent overlap of the traces, we removed the large inward sodium currents using the masking tool in Adobe Illustrator in Figure 2 and Supplemental Figure 5-1. We have added that information to the relevant figure legends. We have also provided unmasked images of the representative traces from Figure 2 and Supplemental Figure 5-1 to illustrate the large transient inward sodium currents, and the significant reduction of these currents with TTX treatment.

      (3) As expected, the changes in many of the measured parameters are smaller in the present study with heterozygotes than those previously reported for the homozygous mutation. Some of the statements on the significance of some of the present findings need to be stated more clearly. For example, in the results section describing Fig. 2, it is stated that "In glutamatergic and NFS GABAergic YH-HET neurons, the overall KNa current was increased ...as measured by a significant effect of genotype ...." Later in the same paragraph it is stated that the increases in KNa current are not significant. Apparently, different tests lead to different conclusions. Both for the purpose of understanding the pathophysiological effects of changes in KNa current and for making further numerical simulations, more explicit clarifying statements should be made.

      We apologize for the confusion on the description of these statistics. The results come from the same test, which is a Generalized Linear Mixed Model (GLMM). The factors in our GLMM were voltage step, genotype, and a voltage step x genotype interaction term. The overall effect of genotype is significant in glutamatergic neurons, but pairwise tests at each voltage step show no significant effect of genotype at any given voltage. This is somewhat analogous to running a traditional ANOVA on multiple groups and finding a significant ANOVA p-value but no significant post-hoc multiple comparisons tests, and is not uncommon. Our interpretation of this is that heterozygous expression of the YH variant in glutamatergic neurons likely increases KNa currents across positive potentials (as was seen with the YH-HOM glutamatergic neurons), but only a small amount at each positive step; thus, we lack the statistical power to determine any particular voltage step where this occurs.

      (4) The effects of the KCNT1 channel blocker VU170 on potassium currents are somewhat larger and different from those of TTX, suggesting that additional sources of sodium may contribute to activating KCNT1, as suggested by the authors. Because VU170 is, however, a novel pharmacological agent, it may be appropriate to make more careful statements on this. While the original published description of this compound reported no effect on a variety of other channels, there are many that were not tested, including Na and cation channels that are known to activate KCNT1, raising the possibility of off-target effects.

      We agree and thank the reviewer for making this point. To address this question, we measured KNa currents in WT vs. Kcnt1/Kcnt2-dKO neurons using VU170 to illustrate the extent of outward current due to off-target effects of the drug. These data have been included as a supplemental figure (Supplemental Fig. 5-2). We have also added several sentences to the Results section referencing this figure. Interestingly, in Kcnt1/Kcnt2-dKO neurons, VU170 seems to be quite specific across the negative potentials, as no outward currents are apparent until approximately -10 mV onward, whereas across positive potentials, there is a VU170-senstive outward current reaching ~1 nA by +50 mV. We have also included a note of caution in interpreting these data and added the possibility of off-target effects of VU170 as an alternative explanation for the differences observed on KNa currents between TTX and VU170 to the Discussion section.

      (5) The experiments were carried out at room temperature. Is it possible that different effects on firing patterns in heterozygotes and homozygotes would be observed at more physiological temperatures?

      Yes, it is reasonable to assume that an increased temperature would affect neuronal firing patterns in cultured neurons, as temperature differences have been shown to alter synaptic transmission and neuronal function, as assessed in both cultured neuron and slice recordings. All of our recordings were performed at room temperature in this study, and although they are valid with regard to between-group comparisons, this additional caveat is worth mentioning. We have added this to the paragraph describing study limitations in the Discussion section.

      To better understand the effects of temperature in our recordings, we have now compared membrane and AP generation parameters at room temperature (~22°C) and at a more physiological temperature (35°C) in a before-after study of 16 WT neurons, including both glutamatergic and GABAergic neuron types. Not surprisingly, we found robust alterations in all parameters assessed, excluding resting membrane potential and capacitance. We further assessed the effect of temperature on WT and YH-HET PV neurons, as the PV neurons expressing the YH variant showed the most unexpected phenotypes in our study. In our room temperature recordings, we showed that the YH-HET variant decreased the rheobase current, increased the AP amplitude, and increased the AP firing. In our before-after comparison (22°C-35°C) of PV neurons (WT; n=11, YH-Het; n=10), the WT and YH-HET neurons showed the same temperature-dependent effects on these parameters, including increased rheobase, decreased AP amplitude, and a higher maximal firing rate, at 35°C compared to those at 22°C. These data have been added to the manuscript as a supplemental figure (Supplemental Fig. 4-3) and are briefly referenced and described in the Results section.     

      Moreover, in our original manuscript, we showed that the effects of the homozygous YH variant on glutamatergic and NFS GABAergic neuron excitability were highly similar between cultured recordings at room temperature (~22°C) and slice recordings at 32°C. Taken together, these data suggest that the reported neurophysiological phenotypes downstream of the YH variant are likely not temperature dependent. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, Shore et al. investigate the consequent changes in excitability and synaptic efficacy of diverse neuronal populations in an animal model of juvenile epilepsy. Using electrophysiological patch-clamp recordings from dissociated neuronal cultures, the authors find diverging changes in two major populations of inhibitory cell types, namely somatostatin (SST)- and parvalbumin (PV)-positive interneurons, in mice expressing a variant of the KCNT1 potassium channel. They further suggest that the differential effects are due to a compensatory increase in the persistent sodium current in PV interneurons in pharmacological and in silico experiments.

      Strengths:

      (1) Heterozygous KCNT1 gain of function variant was used which more accurately models the human disorder.

      (2) The manuscript is clearly written, and the flow is easy to follow. The authors explicitly state the similarities and differences between the current findings and the previously published results in the homozygous KCNT1 gain of function variant.

      (3) This study uses a variety of approaches including patch clamp recording, in silico modeling, and pharmacology that together make the claims stronger.

      (4) Pharmacological experiments are fraught with off-target effects and thus it bolsters the authors' claims when multiple channel blockers (TTX and VU170) are used to reconstruct the sodium-activated potassium current. Having said that, it would be helpful to see the two drug manipulations used in the same experiment. Notably, does the more selective blocker VU170 mimic the results of TTX for NFS GABAergic cells in Figure 2? And does it unmask a genotype difference for FS GABAergic cells like the one seen in PV interneurons in Figure 5C3.

      To illustrate the two drug manipulations in the same experiment, we recorded from WT SST and PV neurons (5 neurons/group) and blocked KNa currents first using TTX and then VU170, following wash out between the two drugs, in the same neurons. Below, we have plotted the points at each voltage step for each SST and PV neuron, and for each drug treatment, on the same graph to show how they vary directly. At each voltage step, lines connect the points representing the TTX-sensitive and VU-sensitive currents for each neuron to show the individual effects (left-most graphs). Summary data are shown across all voltages (middle graphs) and across negative voltages (right-most graphs).

      Author response image 1.

      We have not used VU170 on FS and NFS populations of GABAergic neurons. However, for reasons that are explained more extensively below in response to Weaknesses #3, we would not predict KNa currents recorded from SST- and PV-GABAergic neurons to mimic those of NFS- and FS-GABAergic neurons, respectively.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) This study relies on recordings in dissociated cortical neurons. Although specific WT interneurons showed intrinsic membrane properties like those reported for acute brain slices, it is unclear whether the same will be true for those cells expressing KCNT1 variants. This reviewer highly recommends confirming some of the key findings using an ex vivo slice preparation. This is especially important given the discrepant result of reduced excitability of PV cells reported by Gertler et al., 2022 (cited here in the manuscript but not discussed in this context) in acute hippocampal slices for a different KCNT1 gain of function variant.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. To test whether SST-expressing YH-HET neurons show similar impairments to those observed in culture, we crossed the FVB-Tg(GadGFP)45704Swn/J transgenic mouse line (Jackson Labs #003718), also known as the GIN line, to the Kcnt1-YH line. Mice from the GIN line express eGFP in a subpopulation of SST-expressing neurons in the hippocampus and cortex. We performed slice recordings of cortical layer 2/3, GFP-expressing neurons from P21-30, WT and YH-HET GIN mice. Although the input resistance was not significantly decreased, the rheobase was higher in the YH-HET neurons, and they fired fewer APs across increasing current steps, than WT neurons, supporting the main findings from the SST-expressing neurons in culture. These data have been added to the manuscript in a new figure (Fig. 9).

      Regarding the previously published results on the effect of KCNT1 GOF on PV neuron excitability by Gertler et al., we have written a new paragraph in the Discussion section (last paragraph of the section, “Neuron-type-dependent KCNT1 GOF effects”) that discusses the differences between the findings by Gertler et al. and the current study. 

      To further investigate the effects of heterozygous YH variant expression on SST- vs. PV-expressing neuron excitability in ex vivo slice recordings, we are now crossing a cre-inducible, Td-Tomato Red reporter line (Ai9) to the Kcnt1-YH line. After obtaining Ai9Tg/Tg; Kcnt1m/+ mice, we will cross these to Sst-Cre and Pvalb-Cre lines to be able to record from marked SST and PV, WT and YH-HET neurons in slice. We plan on submitting results from these recordings as an eLife Research Advances article linked to this article.

      (2) It is unclear how different pieces of results fit together to form a story about the disease pathophysiology.

      We have added a paragraph to the Discussion to speculate on how these various GABAergic subtype-specific effects downstream of the YH variant may contribute to overall network/brain pathology and seizure propensity in heterozygous mice.

      For example, hyperexcitability of PV cells would suggest more inhibition which would counter seizure propensity. However, spontaneous inhibitory postsynaptic currents show no change in pyramidal neurons. Moreover, how do the authors reconcile that the reductions in synaptic inputs onto interneurons in Figure 3B with the increases in Figure 8? This should be discussed.

      Generally, network and synaptic alterations downstream of the heterozygous variant were quite minimal compared with those of the homozygous variant. Although there were reductions in the frequency of synaptic inputs onto inhibitory neurons, the changes were relatively small. Thus, we concluded that the neuronal effects downstream of the heterozygous YH variant were below some threshold to result in broader network effects on synaptic activity and connectivity similar to those in the homozygous YH model. The discrepancies between our GABAergic vs. FS/NFS vs. VIP/SST/PV data will be discussed in more detail in response to Weakness #3.   

      (3) Similarly, the results in this work are not entirely internally consistent. For example, given the good correspondence between FS and NFS GABAergic cells with PV and SST expression, why are FS GABAergic cells hyperexcitable in Figure 1? If anything, there is a tendency to show reduced excitability like the NFS GABAergic cells.

      In our neuron cultures, 76-80% of Neu-N-expressing neurons are GFP+ (from the CamKII-eGFP virus used to mark glutamatergic neurons), and of the remaining ~20-24%, the majority are GABAergic (verified using the Dlx5/6-mRuby virus to mark GABAergic neurons and using electrophysiology to assess AP parameters and analyze evoked responses). In our original experiments, recordings sampled from this larger GABAergic population were used (Fig. 3), or this population was sorted almost equally into FS and NFS (Figs. 1 and 2).

      In later experiments, we isolated and cultured neurons from VIP-Cre, SST-Cre, and PV-Cre mouse lines and marked these neuron types in vitro with a Cre-inducible mCherry virus. In the VIP-Cre cultures, ~6% of the GFP- population, or 1.2% of the Neu-N-population, was mCherry+. In the SST-Cre cultures, ~20.5% of the GFP- population, or 4.7% of the Neu-N-population, was mCherry+. In the PV-Cre cultures, less than 1% of the Neu-N-population was mCherry+, which is not surprising considering the relatively late onset of PV expression compared with those of VIP and SST. Thus, we would estimate that we are marking and recording from less than 30% of the total GABAergic population in these in vitro experiments, rather than the 80-90% that these three populations would sum to in vivo.  

      Furthermore, using our original criteria for sorting GABAergic neurons into FS and NFS subtypes, all VIP recorded neurons were of the NFS type, PV of the FS type, whereas SST were of the FS (38%) and NFS (62%) types, which is not far off from the significant fraction of SST neurons that have been shown to be fast-spiking in slice experiments (Kvitsiani et al., 2013; Urban-Ciecko & Barth, 2016). Therefore, the FS group consists of both PV and SST neurons, and the NFS group consists of both VIP and SST neurons, and likely also contains immature PV neurons that have not yet developed a fast-spiking phenotype. Taken together, this suggests that the data from these two sets of experiments (FS/NFS vs. VIP/SST/PV) are not directly comparable.

      Also, why do the WT I-V curves look so different between Figures 2 and 5? This reviewer suggests at least a brief explanation in the discussion.

      As to the differences in appearance between the WT I-V curves in Figures 2 and 5, those plots are from different neuron types (Fig. 2: Glutamatergic, FS GABAergic, and NFS GABAergic vs. Fig. 5: VIP-, SST-, and PV-expressing), and the KNa currents are isolated using different methods (Fig. 2: TTX-subtraction vs. Fig. 5: VU170-subtraction). TTX blocks an inward Na+ current, which is apparent across subthreshold voltages in Fig. 2C1-3, whereas VU170 does not block this current, making it not apparent in Fig. 5C1-3. Also, the bottom three panels in Fig. 2C1-3 show the KNa current from -80 to 0 mV, whereas those in Fig. 5C1-3 show from -80 to -30 mV, to better illustrate the areas spanning KNa current increases, so their appearance is not directly comparable.

      (4) Given the authors' claim that the KCNT1 activation curve is a major contributor to the observed excitability differences in specific GABA cell subtypes, it would be helpful to directly measure the activation curve in the variants experimentally as was done for WT KCNT1 in Figure 6A and use the derived kinetics in the compartmental model.

      We apologize for the confusion. Although the activation curves among different GABAergic subtypes from WT KCNT1 are distinct, and we believe that these varying kinetics contribute to the neuron-type-specific phenotypes of KCNT1 GOF, we didn’t intend to suggest that the heterozygous Y777H variant itself causes neuron-type-specific alterations to the activation curves of the GABAergic subtypes. To clarify this point, below, we show the high similarity of the activation curves between WT KCNT1 and YH-HET KCNT1 in each of the GABAergic subtypes.

      Author response image 2.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The present manuscript by Shore et al. entitled Reduced GABAergic Neuron Excitability, Altered Synaptic Connectivity, and Seizures in a KCNT1 Gain-of-Function Mouse Model of Childhood Epilepsy" describes in vitro and in silico results obtained in cortical neurons from mice carrying the KCNT1-Y777H gain-of-function (GOF) variant in the KCNT1 gene encoding for a subunit of the Na+-activated K+ (KNa) channel. This variant corresponds to the human Y796H variant found in a family with Autosomal Dominant Nocturnal Frontal lobe epilepsy. The occurrence of GOF variants in potassium channel encoding genes is well known, and among potential pathophysiological mechanisms, impaired inhibition has been documented as responsible for KCNT1-related DEEs. Therefore, building on a previous study by the same group performed in homozygous KI animals, and considering that the largest majority of pathogenic KCNT1 variants in humans occur in heterozygosis, the Authors have investigated the effects of heterozygous Kcnt1-Y777H expression on KNa currents and neuronal physiology among cortical glutamatergic and the 3 main classes of GABAergic neurons, namely those expressing vasoactive intestinal polypeptide (VIP), somatostatin (SST), and parvalbumin (PV), crossing KCNT1-Y777H mice with PV-, SST- and PV-cre mouse lines, and recording from GABAergic neurons identified by their expression of mCherry (but negative for GFP used to mark excitatory neurons).

      The results obtained revealed heterogeneous effects of the variant on KNa and action potential firing rates in distinct neuronal subpopulations, ranging from no change (glutamatergic and VIP GABAergic) to decreased excitability (SST GABAergic) to increased excitability (PV GABAergic). In particular, modelling and in vitro data revealed that an increase in persistent Na current occurring in PV neurons was sufficient to overcome the effects of KCNT1 GOF and cause an overall increase in AP generation.

      Strengths:

      The paper is very well written, the results clearly presented and interpreted, and the discussion focuses on the most relevant points.

      The recordings performed in distinct neuronal subpopulations are a clear strength of the paper. The finding that the same variant can cause opposite effects and trigger specific homeostatic mechanisms in distinct neuronal populations is very relevant for the field, as it narrows the existing gap between experimental models and clinical evidence.

      Weaknesses:

      My main concern is in the epileptic phenotype of the heterozygous mice investigated. In fact, in their previous paper the Authors state that "...Kcnt1-Y777H heterozygous mice did not exhibit any detectable epileptiform activity" (first sentence on page 4). However, in the present manuscript, they indicate twice in the discussion section that these mice exhibit "infrequent seizures". This relevant difference needs to be clarified to correctly attribute to the novel pathophysiological mechanism a role in seizure occurrence. Were such infrequent seizures clearly identified on the EEG, or were behavioral seizures? Could the authors quantify this "infrequent" value? This is crucial also to place in the proper perspective the Discussion statement regarding "... the increased INaP contribution to ... network hyperexcitability and seizures".

      We apologize for the confusion. Indeed, in the Results section from our previous paper, we failed to observe seizures in 14 heterozygous mice, whereas 23/25 homozygous mice showed seizures by video-EEG. However, in the fifth paragraph of the Discussion section from that paper, we further stated that “during the preparation and review of [that] article, we observed seizures in two Kcnt1-Y777H heterozygous mice, one during a widefield Ca2+ imaging experiment and the other during a video-EEG experiment”. Thus, we concluded that “heterozygous expression can result in seizures in a rodent model, but apparently at a much lower frequency than that observed with homozygous expression”. To emphasize these findings, we’ve added a sentence to the Introduction in this manuscript about the occurrence of infrequent seizures in Kcnt1-Y777H heterozygous mice, along with a reference to the Discussion of our previous paper.

      Of the two observed seizures, one seizure was captured in the Weston Lab at the University of Vermont from a Kcnt1-Y777H heterozygous mouse expressing a calcium indicator (after it was bred to the Snap25-GCaMP6s line) during a Ca2+ widefield imaging experiment, and it was accompanied by a time-locked video of the seizure event. The other seizure was recorded as a control during a drug study using video-EEG. This Kcnt1-Y777H heterozygous mouse had multiple tonic seizures, as evidenced by EEG traces and the accompanying video, which were recorded and analyzed in the Frankel Lab at Columbia University. The seizures from heterozygous mice have not been officially quantified, as they have only been rarely observed across multiple different experiments using heterozygous mice at multiple institutions, making quantification quite difficult.

      Lastly, regarding attributing the role of the identified pathological mechanisms to seizure occurrence mentioned by the reviewer, we have added a paragraph to the Discussion to speculate on how the various GABAergic subtype-specific effects downstream of the YH variant may contribute to the general lack of network/brain pathology and seizure generation in heterozygous mice.  

      Also, some statistical analysis seems to be missing. For example, I could not find any for the data shown in Fig. 6. Thus, the following statement: "the model PV neurons responded to KCNT1 GOF with decreased AP firing and an increased rheobase" requires proper statistical evaluation.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We were initially hesitant to apply a formal statistical analysis to the modeling data because it differs in important ways from the experimental data. However, we have now provided statistical analyses of these data, with some caveats. Because we applied each KCNT1 GOF level (40, 35, and 30 mM) to the same set of neurons for each data set, we performed repeated measures ANOVA analyses to assess differences due to GOF in each subtype. We note that some changes are statistically significant, but may not be physiologically relevant. For example, there are changes in input resistance and rheobase in VIP neurons only at the higher GOF level (30 mM), but the magnitude of each change is quite small relative to those in SST neurons (Rin: 1.7 MΩ in VIP vs. 23.2 MΩ in SST, rheo: 1.7 pA in VIP vs. 52.5 pA in SST), and likely as a consequence, there are no downstream effects on the AP firing rate at either GOF level in VIP neurons. It is important to examine the magnitude of the effects and interpret them in the context of the changes in other neuron types and in the experimental data, thus, we’ve provided two new figures to better illustrate the relative changes in each neuron type (Supplemental Figures 6-2 and 7-2). We have also added these statistical results to Figures 6E2, 6F2, 6G2, and 7E, and Supplemental Fig. 6-1, and we have described them in the Results section. A summary of the statistics has also been added in Supplemental Table 6.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      In addition to addressing the weaknesses highlighted in the public review, this reviewer recommends using a KCNT1 agonist such as loxapine to see if activating the potassium channel mimics the KCNT1 GOF in SST and PV cells.

      Although we appreciate this suggestion, we’re not sure whether treating GABAergic subtypes with loxapine would provide much clarity in the absence of many supporting experiments. First, the amount of channel activation and any changes in kinetics caused by loxapine would need to be measured and compared to the YH-HET GOF effects in order to interpret the results. In addition, the aforementioned caveat about off-target effects of small molecules would also have to be considered, as loxapine inhibits many other channels at nanomolar concentrations.

      More importantly, we hypothesize that several of the GABAergic subtype-specific effects of KCNT1 GOF result from homeostatic or adaptive mechanisms due to long-term increases in KNa currents. For instance, PV-expressing YH-HET neurons had a lower rheobase, increased AP amplitude, and increased AP firing frequency, effects that we believe are due, not to increased KNa currents themselves, but to a compensatory increase in a persistent Na+ current. For the SST neurons, we hypothesize that the increased capacitance and soma size, together with the increased electrical coupling, exacerbate the hypoexcitability phenotype downstream of the YH variant. Thus, we would not necessarily expect that opening KCNT1 channels by acute loxapine treatment would mimic many of these effects.

      Indeed, in a previous study using a different KCNT1 GOF mouse model, loxapine treatment mimics KCNT1 GOF effects in some neuron types (reduced AP firing frequency in loxapine-treated, WT PV neurons mimics that observed in heterozygous KCNT1 GOF PV neurons), but not in others (reduced AP firing frequency in loxapine-treated, WT pyramidal neurons does not mimic the unaltered AP firing frequency observed in heterozygous and homozygous KCNT1 GOF pyramidal neurons) (Gertler et al., 2022).  

      Related to this suggestion by the reviewer, we are currently performing studies using a KCNT1 blocker in WT and Kcnt1-KO neurons to better understand the role of KCNT1 among cortical neuronal subtypes that will be published in a future manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Though I realize that primary cultures allow for efficient identification of neuronal subclasses, it would have been useful to show that similar changes also occur in neurons with conserved in vivo connectivity, such as those recorded from brain slices.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have added an additional figure (Fig. 9) showing that the hypoexcitability phenotype observed in SST neurons in culture recordings is conserved in SST neurons in slice recordings from GIN mice, which express GFP predominately in SST-expressing neurons.

      In addition, further experiments in PV neurons from Kcnt1-Y777H homozygous mice would provide evidence for a gene-dosage role in the changes found in heteros.

      For this manuscript, we chose to focus our efforts on understanding the effects of heterozygous Kcnt1 variant expression in various neuronal subtypes with the goal of better modeling GOF variant effects in human disease. However, we’re very interested in investigating the effects of homozygous expression of the YH variant on each of the GABAergic subtypes to compare with those found in this study, but this requires more rounds of breeding to get homozygous mice with GABAergic subtype-specific expression of cre recombinase. We look forward to reporting the results from these experiments in a future manuscript.

      Also, when addressing the issue regarding the different effects of the same GOF variant on the excitability of distinct neuronal populations in the Discussion or Introduction sections, the authors may want to cite the recent work on KCNQ2 and KCNQ3 by the Tzingounis group (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37607817/).

      We thank the reviewer for bringing this manuscript to our attention. We have added this citation to a new paragraph in the Discussion section regarding neuron-type specific effects of ion channel variants (the last paragraph focusing on the effects in PV neurons).

      Budelli, G., Hage, T. A., Wei, A., Rojas, P., Jong, Y. J., O'Malley, K., & Salkoff, L. (2009). Na+-activated K+ channels express a large delayed outward current in neurons during normal physiology. Nat Neurosci, 12(6), 745-750. https://doi.org/10.1038/nn.2313

      Gertler, T. S., Cherian, S., DeKeyser, J. M., Kearney, J. A., & George, A. L., Jr. (2022). K(Na)1.1 gain-of-function preferentially dampens excitability of murine parvalbumin-positive interneurons. Neurobiol Dis, 168, 105713. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.nbd.2022.105713

      Grubb, M. S., & Burrone, J. (2010). Activity-dependent relocation of the axon initial segment fine-tunes neuronal excitability. Nature, 465(7301), 1070-1074. https://doi.org/10.1038/nature09160

      Hage, T. A., & Salkoff, L. (2012). Sodium-activated potassium channels are functionally coupled to persistent sodium currents. J Neurosci, 32(8), 2714-2721. https://doi.org/10.1523/JNEUROSCI.5088-11.2012

      Kuba, H., Oichi, Y., & Ohmori, H. (2010). Presynaptic activity regulates Na(+) channel distribution at the axon initial segment. Nature, 465(7301), 1075-1078. https://doi.org/10.1038/nature09087

      Kvitsiani, D., Ranade, S., Hangya, B., Taniguchi, H., Huang, J. Z., & Kepecs, A. (2013). Distinct behavioural and network correlates of two interneuron types in prefrontal cortex. Nature, 498(7454), 363-366. https://doi.org/10.1038/nature12176

      Shore, A. N., Colombo, S., Tobin, W. F., Petri, S., Cullen, E. R., Dominguez, S., Bostick, C. D., Beaumont, M. A., Williams, D., Khodagholy, D., Yang, M., Lutz, C. M., Peng, Y., Gelinas, J. N., Goldstein, D. B., Boland, M. J., Frankel, W. N., & Weston, M. C. (2020). Reduced GABAergic neuron excitability, altered synaptic connectivity, and seizures in a KCNT1 gain-of-function mouse model of childhood epilepsy. Cell Rep.

      Urban-Ciecko, J., & Barth, A. L. (2016). Somatostatin-expressing neurons in cortical networks. Nat Rev Neurosci, 17(7), 401-409. https://doi.org/10.1038/nrn.2016.53

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary

      The authors investigated the antigenic diversity of recent (2009- 2017) A/H3N2 influenza neuraminidases (NAs), the second major antigenic protein after haemagglutinin. They used 27 viruses and 43 ferret sera and performed NA inhibition. This work was supported by a subset of mouse sera. Clustering analysis determined 4 antigenic clusters, mostly in concordance with the genetic groupings. Association analysis was used to estimate important amino acid positions, which were shown to be more likely close to the catalytic site. Antigenic distances were calculated and a random forest model was used to determine potential important sites.

      This has the potential to be a very interesting piece of work. At present, there are inconsistencies in the methods, results and presentation that limit its impact. In particular, there are weaknesses in some of the computational work.

      Strengths

      (1) The data cover recent NA evolution and a substantial number (43) of ferret (and mouse) sera were generated and titrated against 27 viruses. This is laborious experimental work and is the largest publicly available neuraminidase inhibition dataset that I am aware of. As such, it will prove a useful resource for the influenza community.

      (2) A variety of computational methods were used to analyse the data, which give a rounded picture of the antigenic and genetic relationships and link between sequence, structure and phenotype.

      Weaknesses

      (1) Inconsistency in experimental methods

      Two ferret sera were boosted with H1N2, while recombinant NA protein for the others. This, and the underlying reason, are clearly explained in the manuscript. The authors note that boosting with live virus did not increase titres. Nevertheless, these results are included in the analysis when it would be better to exclude them (Figure 2 shows much lower titres to their own group than other sera).

      As an exercise, we have excluded the H1N2 boosted ferrets sera and no major impact was observed in the antigenic grouping (see Author response image 1a). Another way to control for differences in immunogenicity is to normalize the NAI values with the homologous ELISA titers for each antigen. Clustering based on these ELISA normalized NAI titers reveals the same 4 distinct antigenic groups but with one change: Kan17 is shifted from group 1 to group 2 (Author response image 1b). Note that a homologous ELISA titer is not available for A/West-Virginia/17/2012 and thus this serum sample is not included in Author response image 1b.

      Author response image 1.

      Antigenic and phylogenetic relatedness of N2 NAs. Phylogenetic tree based on the N2 NA head domain amino acid sequences and heat-map representing the average of normalized neuraminidase inhibition titer per H6N2 [log2 (max NAI/NAI)] determined in ferret sera after the boost (listed vertically). The red-to-blue scale indicates high-to-low NAI observed in ELLA against the H6N2 reassortants (listed at the bottom). UPGMA clustering of H6N2s inhibition profiles are shown on top of the heat map and colored according to the phylogenetic groups.(a) Based on the ferret sera with exclusion of the sera that were obtained following prime-boost by infection with H1N2 (A/Estonia/91625/2015 and A/Stockholm/15/2014). (b) Based on serum NAI titers that were normalized by the homologous ELISA titer.

      (2) Inconsistency in experimental results

      Clustering of the NA inhibition results identifies three viruses which do not cluster with their phylogenetic group. Again, this is clearly pointed out in the paper. Further investigation of this inconsistency is required to determine whether this has a genetic basis or is an experimental issue. It is difficult to trust the remaining data while this issue is unresolved.

      We understand the concern of the reviewer. It is important to keep in mind that discrete grouping of antigens allows to visualize major antigenic drifts. However, within closely related groups the cross reactivity of antisera is more likely distributed in a spectrum. When we constructed an antigenic map based on the antigenic cartography algorithm (as described by Smith D. et al, 2004), Kansas17, Wis15, and Ala15 are positioned more closely to antigenic group 1 than the majority of other antigens that were classified as group 2 (Author response image 2a). Similar results were obtained when individual ferret sera from the biological duplicates were used (Author response image 2b). This antigenic cartography map is now added as Figure 2. Figure supplement 3 to the revised manuscript.

      Author response image 2.

      The antigenic cartography was constructed using averaged data from pairs of ferrets (a). Similar analysis was performed on individual ferrets sera (b).

      (3) Inconsistency in group labelling

      A/Hatay/4990/2016 & A/New Caledonia/23/2016 are in phylogenetic group 1 in Figure 2 and phylogenetic group 1 in Figure 5 - figure supplement 1 panel a.

      Our apologies: there was indeed a mistake in labeling of Figure 5. A new antigenic cartography was constructed and included in the revised manuscript. As a result Figure 5 - figure supplement has now become redundant and was removed from the manuscript.

      A/Kansas/14/2017 is selected as a representative of antigenic group 2, when in Figure 2 it is labelled as AC1 (although Figure 2 - supplement 4 which the text is referring to shows data for A/Singapore/Infimh-16-0019/2016 as the representative of AC2). A/Kansas/14/2017 is coloured and labelled as AC2 in Figure 2 - supplement 5.

      Thank you for pointing out this inconsistency. Kan17 clustered antigenically in group 1 based on the NAI values that were normalized relative to the serum with the maximal NAI value against the H6N2 virus that was tested. When using NAI titers that are normalization with the homologous ELISA titer, Kan17 is positioned in group 2. Likewise, antigenic cartography mapping positions Kan17 in group 2. Therefore, we conclude that A/Kansas/14/2017 NA is a representative of group 2.

      The colouring is changed for Figure 3a at the bottom. A/Heilongjiang-Xiangyang/1134/2011 is coloured the same as AC4 viruses when it is AC1 in Figure 2. This lack of consistency makes the figures misleading.

      We apologize for this mistake. The coloring in Figure 3a has been corrected.

      (4) Data not presented, without explanation

      The paper states that 44 sera and 27 H6N2 viruses were used (line 158). However, the results for the Kansas/14/2017 sera do not appear to be presented in any of the figures (e.g. Figure 2 phylogenetic tree, Figure 5 - figure supplement 1). It is not obvious why these data were not presented. The exclusion of this serum could affect the results as often the homologous titre is the highest and several heatmaps show the fold down from the highest titre.

      Serum against A/Kansas/14/2017 was not prepared. For that reason, it is not included in the analysis. We agree that such homologous serum ideally should have been included and in the NAI assay would have resulted in a high if not the highest titer. However, we noticed that homologous sera did not always have the highest titers, especially in panels like ours were some antigens are closely related. The highest titer obtained against Kan17 H6N2 was from A/Bris/16 sera: 1/104, a titer that is in the range of other, homologous titers observed in the panel (Table S3). The Bris16 and Kan17 NAs have five amino acid differences. In summary, inclusion of Kan17 homologous sera would likely not impact the analysis and interpretation of the results because there are multiple highly cross-inhibiting heterologous serum samples against Kan17.

      (5) The cMDS plot does not have sufficient quality assurance A cMDS plot is shown in Figure 5 - figure supplement 1, generated using classical MDS. The following support for the appropriateness of this visualisation is not given. a. Goodness of fit of the cMDS projection, including per point and per titre. b. Testing of the appropriate number of dimensions (the two sera from phylogenetic group 3 are clustered with phylogenetic group 2; additional dimensions might separate these groups). c. A measure of uncertainty in positioning, e.g. bootstrapping. d. A sensitivity analysis of the assumption about titres below the level of detection (i.e. that <20 = 10). Without this information, it is difficult to judge if the projection is reliable.

      We agree with these comments. We have removed Figure 5 – figure supplement 1, and added new figure 2 – figure supplement 3 (antigenic cartography) instead.

      (6) Choice of antigenic distance measure

      The measure of antigenic distance used here is the average difference between titres for two sera. This is dependent on which viruses have been included in the analysis and will be biased by the unbalanced number of viruses in the different clusters (12, 8, 2, 5).

      To verify the impact of the number of antigens on our analysis, the matrix of differences was generated with only 4 H6N2s representing at least one phylogenetic group (Per09, Sin16, Hel823 and Ind11) (Author response image 3a). This matrix is very similar to the one calculated based on all 27 antigens (Author response image 3b). The obtained matrix (Author response image 3a) was used in random forest to model antigenic distances and the result of prediction was plotted against real differences calculated based on the full data. The correlation coefficient (R2) of predicted vs observed values dropped from 0.81 to 0.71, suggesting that the number of antigens tested does not drastically affect the antigenic differences calculated based on serum values (Author response image 3e). Importantly, amino acid substitutions potentially associated with increased antigenic distances are similarly identified (Author response image 3c, d and f).

      Author response image 3.

      Matrix of differences was calculated using only 4 H6N2 antigens (a) or the full panel (b). The matrixes from (c) 4 or (d) 27 antigens were used in random forest modeling to estimate the impact of amino acid changes, respectively. The rf modeling data generated from 4 H6N2 only was plotted and correlated with values calculated from the full panel of 27 H6N2s (e). The multi-way importance plot indicates in red that 7 out of the 10 most important substitutions were identified by the analysis using only 4 H6N2s (f).

      Interestingly, when matrix of differences is calculated using only 4 H6N2s data but not including at least one representative of antigenic group 1 and 2, the correlation coefficient between the predicted values and values obtained from the full panel is dramatically impacted (R2 values drops from 0.81 to 0.5 and 0.57. It is important to note that most of the sera also belong to phylogenetic antigens from groups 1 and 2. As a consequence, poorer prediction of those antigens would more drastically impact the correlation. No drastic drop was observed when representative H6N2s from group 3 or 4 were excluded from the data (from 0.81 to 0.75 and 0.73, Author response image 4 c and d).

      Author response image 4.

      Random forest analysis was repeated using only 4 antigens, but excluding representatives of one of the phylogenetic groups (a) no group 1, (b) no group 2, (c) no group 3, and (d) no group 4.

      We also used Euclidean distances as a measure of differences (Author response image 5). The predictive values obtained in rf have a slightly reduced R2 compared to the values obtained using average of differences.

      In conclusion the unbalanced number of antigens used per group and metric of distance does not seem to impact per se our analysis.

      Author response image 5.

      Antigenic distances were calculated using Euclidian distances of sera to sera. Those antigenic distances were used in rf for estimation of antigenic distance and importance of each amino acid substitution.

      (7) Association analysis does not account for correlations

      For each H6N2 virus and position, significance was calculated by comparing the titres between sera that did or did not have a change at that position. This does not take into account the correlations between positions. For haemagglutinin, it can be impossible to determine the true antigenic effects of such correlated substitutions with mutagenesis studies.

      Most of the potential correlated effects cannot be addressed with the panel of N2s, except for combinations of substitution that are included in the panel, such as 245/247 with or without 468. Only mutagenesis studies would shed light on the epistatic effects. However, it is important to keep in mind that those individual substitutions in such kind of study likely do not reflect natural evolution of N2 (cfr. the importance of the NA charge balance (Wang et al., 2021: 10.7554/eLife.72516).

      (8) Random forest method

      25 features are used to classify 43 sera, which seems high (p/3 is typical for classification). By only considering mismatches, rather than the specific amino acid changes, some signals may be lost (for example, at a given position, one amino acid change might be neutral while another has a large antigenic effect). Features may be highly, or perfectly correlated, which will give them a lower reported importance and skew the results.

      The number of features were optimized in the range from 5 to 80, with 25 being optimal (best R-value in predicted vs observed antigenic distances). Those features refer to the number of amino acid substitutions used in each tree. The number of trees was also optimized in the range of 100 to 2000.

      In random forest the matrix of differences is made considering only position based and not the type of substitution in pairs of NA. Indeed, substitutions with distinct effects may skew results by indicating lower reported importance.

      We have highlighted such potential bias in our discussion:

      “Also, our modelling does not consider that substitution by other amino acids can have a distinct impact on the antigenic distance. As a consequence, predictions based on the model could underestimate or overestimate the importance of a particular amino acid residue substitution in some cases.”

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors characterized the antigenicity of N2 protein of 44 selected A(H3N2) influenza A viruses isolated from 2009-2017 using ferret and mice immune sera. Four antigenic groups were identified, which correlated with their respective phylogenic/ genetic groups. Among 102 amino acids differed by the 44 selected N2 proteins, the authors identified residues that differentiate the antigenicity of the four groups and constructed a machine-learning model that provides antigenic distance estimation. Three recent A(H3N2) vaccine strains were tested in the model but there was no experimental data to confirm the model prediction results.

      Strengths:

      This study used N2 protein of 44 selected A(H3N2) influenza A viruses isolated from 2009-2017 and generated corresponding panels of ferret and mouse sera to react with the selected strains. The amount of experimental data for N2 antigenicity characterization is large enough for model building.

      Weaknesses:

      The main weakness is that the strategy of selecting 44 A(H3N2) viruses from 2009-2017 was not explained. It is not clear if they represent the overall genetic diversity of human A(H3N2) viruses circulating during this time. A comprehensive N2 phylogenetic tree of human A(H3N2) viruses from 2009-2017, with the selected 44 strains labeled in the tree, would be helpful to assess the representativeness of the strains included in the study.

      The selection of antigens was performed using the method described by Bien and Tibshirani 2011 (doi: 10.1198/jasa.2011.tm10183). This method calculates MinMax distances to identify a central representative among distinct clusters.

      To facilitate visualization of in a phylogenetic tree, only 180 representative N2 proteins from 2009-2017 were randomly selected (20 strains per year, unlabelled). Those 180 representatives and 44 readout panel strains (labelled) are shown in the phylogenetic tree below. Readout strains cover the major branches of the tree. The tree has been built using PhyML 3.0 using JTT substitution model and default parameters (Guindon S. et al, Systematic Biology 59(3):307-21, 2010) and visualized using ETE3 (Huerta-Cepas J. et al, Mol. Biol. Evol 33(6):1635-38, 2016).

      Author response image 6.

      The second weakness is the use of double-immune ferret sera (post-infection plus immunization with recombinant NA protein) or mouse sera (immunized twice with recombinant NA protein) to characterize the antigenicity of the selected A(H3N2) viruses. Conventionally, NA antigenicity is characterized using ferret sera after a single infection. Repeated influenza exposure in ferrets has been shown to enhance antibody binding affinity and may affect the cross-reactivity to heterologous strains (PMID: 29672713). The increased cross-reactivity is supported by the NAI titers shown in Table S3, as many of the double immune ferret sera showed the highest reactivity not against its own homologous virus but to heterologous strains. Although the authors used the post-infection ferret sera to characterize 5 viruses (Figure 2, Figure Supplement 4), the patterns did not correlate well. If the authors repeat the NA antigenic analysis using the post-infection ferret sera with lower cross-reactivity, will the authors be able to identify more antigenic groups instead of 4 groups?

      This is a very valuable remark. In their paper, Kosikova et al. (CID 2018) report that repeated infection of ferrets with antigenically slightly different H3N2 viruses results in a broader anti-HA response, compared to a prime infection of an influenza naïve ferret, which results in a narrower anti-HA response. In our ferret immunizations the boost was performed with recombinant, enzymatically active NA that was homologous to the NA of the H1N2 virus that was used for the priming by infection. We determined the NAI responses in sera from ferrets after H1N2 infection against 5 different H6N2 viruses (Figure 2 – figure supplement 5). Compared to NAI responses in sera from H1N2 infected and subsequently NA protein boosted ferrets, the NAI titers obtained after a single infection were considerably lower. Although the normalized NAI titers of day 14 and day 42 sera correlated well, we cannot exclude a degree of broadening of the NAI response in the NA protein boost sera (Author response image 7). On the other hand, repeated influenza antigen exposure is the reality for the majority of people.

      Author response image 7.

      Correlation obtained on NAI data from ferrets at day 14 after infection vs data from day 42 after boost.

      Another weakness is that the authors used the newly constructed model to predict the antigenic distance of three recent A(H3N2) viruses but there is no experimental data to validate their prediction (eg. if these viruses are indeed antigenically deviating from group 2 strains as concluded by the authors).

      Indeed, there is no experimental data from A/Hong_Kong/45/2018, A/Tasmania/503/2020, or A/Darwin/9/2021. The generation of data to determine experimental values for A/Hong_Kong/45/2018, A/Tasmania/503/2020, or A/Darwin/9/2021 would require the generation of new reassortant viruses (H1N2s), recombinant protein and immunization of new ferrets. The ferrets sera would have to be analyzed against all 27 H6N2s, including duplicated control sera for normalization. The major point of the modeling was to evaluate if it is possible to predict the antigenic behavior based on amino acid substitutions.

      As an exercise we have run the model again but this time excluding the Swe17 and HK17 antigens from the data set. Sequences of Sw17 or HK17 were then used to predict antigenic distances. The modeled versus experimental data are plotted in Author response image 8 and show a robust predictive outcome with R2 values of 0.94 and 0.91 for Sw17 and HK17, respectively.

      Author response image 8.

      Antigenic distances from Swe17 and HK17 calculated using the random forest algorithm that was constructed without experimental data from Swe17 and HK17. The predicted distances were plotted side by side to the experimental distances in (a) and correlations are shown in (b).

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This paper by Portela Catani et al examines the antigenic relationships (measured using monotypic ferret and mouse sera) across a panel of N2 genes from the past 14 years, along with the underlying sequence differences and phylogenetic relationships. This is a highly significant topic given the recent increased appreciation of the importance of NA as a vaccine target, and the relative lack of information about NA antigenic evolution compared with what is known about HA. Thus, these data will be of interest to those studying the antigenic evolution of influenza viruses. The methods used are generally quite sound, though there are a few addressable concerns that limit the confidence with which conclusions can be drawn from the data/analyses.

      Strengths:

      • The significance of the work, and the (general) soundness of the methods.

      • Explicit comparison of results obtained with mouse and ferret sera.

      Weaknesses:

      • Approach for assessing the influence of individual polymorphisms on antigenicity does not account for the potential effects of epistasis.

      Indeed, possible epistatic effects or individual polymorphisms were not assessed, which is limited by the nature of the panel of N2s selected in the study. We now emphasize this in the discussion as follows:

      “Also, our modelling does not consider that substitution by different amino acids can have distinct impact on antigenic distance. As a consequence, predictions based on the model could underestimate the importance of a particular amino acid residue substitution in some cases.”

      • Machine learning analyses were neither experimentally validated nor shown to be better than simple, phylogenetic-based inference.

      This is a valid remark and indeed we have found a clear correlation between NAI cross reactivity and phylogenetic relatedness. However, besides achieving good prediction of the experimental data (as shown in Figure 5 and in FigureR7), machine Learning analysis has the potential to rank or indicate major antigenic divergences based on available sequences before it has consolidated as new clade. ML can also support the selection and design of broader reactive antigens.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Major corrections

      No major corrections, beyond the issues I touched on in the public review, for which I give a little more detail below:

      Point 2. If there's not a putative genetic basis for the unexpected clustering seen in the NAI, then reiterating a small subset of the data would show the reliability of the experimental methods and substantiate this unexpected finding.

      We thank the reviewer for this pertinent point and suggestion. We have modified our analysis by reiterating individual ferret data normalized with the homologous ELISA titers. This reiteration is shown in figure R1b. In this case both Kan17 and Wis15 are switched to antigenic group 2. The profile of sera inhibition against those 2 strains that shift from antigenic cluster 1 to 2, is clearly an intermediate between profiles observed in those 2 groups. Considering that antigenic evolution occurs gradually, it is not unexpected that those intermediate profiles would swing from one side to another when pushed to forced discrimination. Antigenic cartography mapping, as in Smith et al. (2004), also indicated that those H6N2s are located closer to G1 than overall antigens from G2. Raw data distribution (max and min EC50) also do not indicate potential bias in analysis.

      Point 5. If you want to use antigenic cartography (Smith et al 2004), there is the R CRAN package (https://CRAN.R-project.org/package=Racmacs) which can handle threshold titres (like <20) and has functions for the diagnostic tools I describe, in order to quality assure the resulting plot. It does use a different antigenic distance metric than the paper currently uses, so you might not want to take that route.

      Thank you for this suggestion. We have performed antigenic cartography using the methodology described by Smith et al made accessible by Sam Wilks. The outcome of this analysis has been added to the manuscript as Figure 2 – Figure supplement 3.

      Point 6. More robust measures of antigenic distance take into account the homologous titre, homologous and heterologous titres (Archetti & Horsfall, 1950) or use the highest observed titre for a serum (Smith et al 2004). A limitation of the first two is that the antigenic distance can only be calculated when you have the homologous titre, which will limit you as you only have this for 26/43 sera. They may give similar results to your average antigenic distance, in which case your analysis still stands. Calculating antigenic distance using the homologous or maximum titre only gives the antigenic distance between the antigen and the serum. If you want the distance between all the sera, then further analysis is required (making an antigenic map and outputting the serum-serum distances, see the point above).

      We thank the reviewer for these suggestions. A complete set of 43 H6N2 viruses that matches all 43 sera would have been ideal. This would require the generation of 17 additional H6N2 viruses and their testing in ELLA, a significant amount of work in terms of time and resources. Instead, we have generated an antigenic map of the 27 antigens and homologous sera (cfr. our response to point 5 above). Despite different methods the outcome showing 4 major antigenic groups is consistent.

      Minor corrections

      Table S1

      A/New_Castle/67/2016 should be A/Newcastle/67/2016

      A/Gambia/2012 is not the full virus name

      Corrected.

      Table S3 has multiple values of exactly 10.0. I think these should be <20 as they are below the threshold of detection for the assay.

      All the values lower than 20 in Table S3 were replaced by “< 20”.

      Line 376: A/Sidney/5/1997 should be A/Sydney/5/1997

      Corrected.

      Line 338: "25 randomly sampled data" is a bit vague, "25 randomly sampled features" would be better

      Corrected.

      Include RMSE of the random forest model.

      RMSE=19.6 RMSE/mean = 0.207 is now mentioned in the manuscript.

      Figure 5 - supplement 1: These plots are difficult to interpret as the aspect ratio is not 1:1, and panels a & b are difficult to compare as they have not been aligned (using a Procrustes analysis). It would be neater if they were labelled with short names.

      We have generated an antigenic cartography map instead. As a consequence, the MDS has become redundant and Figure 5 – supplement 1 was removed.

      Line 562: 98 variable residues, where it is 102 elsewhere in the text.

      There are 4 mutations near the end of the NA stalk domain, which are not resolved in the N2 structure. Therefore, amino acid distances to these residues cannot be calculated.

      No data availability statement. Some of the raw data is available in Table S3 and there is no link to the code.

      The data and code used for generation of rf modelling was uploaded to Github and made available. The following statement has been added to the manuscript: “The data and code used for the generation of the rf model is available at https://github.com/SaelensLAB/RF..”

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) More than 42,000 NA sequences are available for the mentioned period on GISAID, it is therefore important to understand the selection criteria for the 44 strains and if these strains represent the overall genetic diversity of N2 of human A(H3N2) viruses. To demonstrate the representativeness of the 44 selected strains, please construct a representative N2 phylogenetic tree for human A(H3N2) viruses circulated in 2009-2017 and label the 44 selected strains on the tree.

      The selection of antigens was performed using the method described by Bien and Tibshirani 2011 (doi: 10.1198/jasa.2011.tm10183). This method uses MinMax distances to identify a central representative among distinct clusters.

      To facilitate visualization tree only of 180 representative N2 proteins from 2009-2017 were randomly selected (20 strains per year, unlabelled). Those 180 representatives and 44 readout panel strains (labelled) are shown in the phylogenetic tree below. Readout strains cover the major branches of the tree. The tree has been built using PhyML 3.0 using JTT substitution model and default parameters (Guindon S. et al, Systematic Biology 59(3):307-21, 2010) and visualized using ETE3 (Huerta-Cepas J. et al, Mol. Biol. Evol 33(6):1635-38, 2016).

      Author response image 9.

      (2) Double immune ferret sera may increase antibody binding affinity and cross-reactivity against heterologous strains. Using single-infection ferret sera may yield different antigenic grouping results (eg. may identify more antigenic groups). Can the authors repeat the NA antigenic grouping using single-infection ferret sera? Although data from a subset of 5 strains was presented (Figure 2, Figure Supplement 4), the information was not sufficient to support if the use of single-infection or double immune ferret sera will yield similar antigenic grouping results.

      In our ferret immunizations the boost was performed with recombinant, enzymatically active NA that was homologous to the NA of the H1N2 virus that was used for the priming by infection. We determined the NAI responses in sera from ferrets after H1N2 infection against 5 different H6N2 viruses (Figure 2 – figure supplement 5). Compared to NAI responses in sera from H1N2 infected and subsequently NA protein boosted ferrets, the NAI titers obtained after a single infection were considerably lower. Although the normalized NAI titers of day 14 and day 42 sera correlated well, we cannot exclude a degree of broadening of the NAI response in the NA protein boost sera (Figure R6). On the other hand, repeated influenza antigen exposure is the reality for the majority of people.

      (3) NA antigenicity data is presented in heat maps and the authors would often describe the heat map patterns matches without further explanations. Line 234-235, the heat map of mouse sera (Figure 2. Figure supplement 5) was described to match the results of ferret sera (Figure 2), but this tends to be subjective. A correlation analysis of 7 selected antigens showed a positive correlation, what about the other 37 antigens?

      The interpretation of heatmaps is indeed very subjective, for this reason the correlation of the 7 selected antigens was also provided. The other 37 antigens were not tested. Considering the results using post boost sera, a simulation of using random forest modeling indicate that the data from one antigen of each antigenic group is sufficient to achieve a reliable predictive output (R2=0.71) (Figure R3 of this rebuttal).

      (4) Can the authors explain in more detail how data in Figure 4a was generated? According to the authors, residues close to the catalytic pocket are more likely to impact NAI. Can the authors explain how they define if a residue is close to the catalytic pocket?

      The correlation of distances of amino acid residues with significance values is explained as follows. Consider 7 distinct elements that are distributed horizontally as shown by the squares in the figure below (Author response image 10a). The elements highlighted in yellow have a numerical propriety (in case of N2 neuraminidase this was the significance values obtained in the association study). Taking P1 as reference we can calculate the distance (red arrows) between P1 and P2, P4 and P7, those distances can them be correlated to intrinsic values of P2, P4 and P7, which enables the calculation of the correlation coefficient Tau. This same process is repeated for each position (or each amino acid), as a consequence every position will have a correlation coefficient calculated (Author response image 8b). This correlation coefficient can be represented as a heat map at the surface of N2.

      Author response image 10.

      The 2D scheme represents the strategy used to calculate the correlation (i.e. the Tau values) between distances and p-values. Tau values can then be presented in a heat map.

      (5) Can the authors provide experimental data using the three recent A(H3N2) viruses as antigens and perform NAI assay to confirm if they are antigenic all deviating from group 2 viruses?

      The generation of data to determine experimental values for A/Hong_Kong/45/2018, A/Tasmania/503/2020, or A/Darwin/9/2021 would require the generation of new reassortant viruses (H1N2s), recombinant protein and immunization of new ferrets. The ferrets sera would have to be analyzed against all 27 H6N2s, including duplicated control sera for normalization. The major point of the modeling was to evaluate if it is possible to predict the antigenic behavior based on amino acid substitutions.

      As an exercise we have run the model again but this time excluding the Swe17 and HK17 antigens from the data set. Sequences of Sw17 or HK17 were then used to predict antigenic distances. The modeled versus experimental data are plotted in Author response image 7 and show a robust predictive outcome with R2 values of 0.94 and 0.91 for Sw17 and HK17, respectively.

      (6) According to Ge et al. 2022 (PMID: 35387078), N2 NA's before 2014 (2007-2013) showed a 329-N-glycosylation and E344, and they were subsequently replaced by H3N2 viruses with E344K and 329 non-glycosylation changing the NI reactivity in ferret antisera towards later strains. Were these residues also predicted to be important to N2 antigenicity from your machine-learning method?

      Three of the N2 NAs used in our panel, A/Victoria/361/2011, A/Hong_Kong/3089/2017, and A/Tennessee/18/2017, lack this N-glycosylation motif. The E344K substitution is present in another 3 NAs, derived from A/Nagano/2153/2017, A/Minnesota/11/2010, and A/Indiana/08/2011. The importance of those mutations is among the lowest ones predicted in our modeling. However, the differences in NAI reported by Ge et al. are low (not even twofold). The experimental variability in our study potentially limits the identification of substitutions with a subtle impact NAI. We have added the following to the discussion in our revised manuscript:

      “It has been reported that an N-glycosylation site at position 329 combined with E344 in NA from human H3N2 viruses from 2007 to 2013 was gradually lost in later H3N2 viruses (Ge et al., 2022). This loss of an N-glycosylation site at position 329 combined with an E344K substitution was associated with a change in NAI reactivity in ferret sera. Three N2 NAs in our panel, derived from A/Victoria/361/2011, A/Hong_Kong/3089/2017, and A/Tennessee/18/2017, lack this N-glycosylation motif. The E344K substitution is present in three other NAs, derived from A/Nagano/2153/2017, A/Minnesota/11/2010, and A/Indiana/08/2011. The importance of those mutations is among the lowest ones predicted by our modeling. However, the differences in NAI reported by Ge et al. are very modest (lower than twofold). The experimental variability in our study potentially limits the identification of substitutions with a subtle impact NAI.”

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Specific suggestions:

      Line 132: Did the authors confirm the absence of compensatory mutations due to a heterologous H6 background that could potentially confound downstream NAI results?

      All NAs genes of the rescued H6N2 viruses were fully sequenced and were found to be identical to the expected NA sequences, with the only exception being the A/Tasmania/1018/2015 were a mixed population of wt and M467I was found. This substitution is located at the surface and at the top of the NA head domain, and thus could potentially impact NA antigenicity. However, A/Tasmania/1018/2015 H6N2s had a similar inhibition profile as other H6N2s in phylogenetic and antigenic group 1. This indicates that, at least in this mixed population, antigenicity was not drastically affected by the M467I substitution.

      Line 96: how do these data rule out variation in the fraction of properly folded protein across NAs? They certainly show that properly folded NA protein is present, but not whether amounts vary between the different NAs.

      SEC-MALS (size exclusion chromatography-Multiangle light scattering) data and enzymatic activity were considered as a proxy for correctly folded NA. Although the specific activity of the recombinant N2 NAs is expressed per mass unit (microgram), we cannot exclude that the fraction of properly folded protein across the different recombinant NAs may vary.

      Lines 262-269: this analysis approach (based on my reading) seems to consider each polymorphism in isolation and thus does not seem well suited for accounting for epistatic interactions within the NA. For example, the effect of a substitution on NAI may be contingent upon other alleles within NA that are not cleanly segregated between the two serum comparator groups. Can the authors address the potential of epistasis within NA to confound the results shown in Figure 3?

      Unfortunately, epistatic interactions cannot be solved using the panel of N2 selected for the study. This limitation is mentioned in our discussion:

      “It is important to highlight that co-occurring substitutions in our panel (the ones present in the main branches of the phylogenetic tree) cannot be individually assessed by association analysis or the random forest model. The individual weight of those mutation on NA drift thus remains to be experimentally demonstrated.”

      Line 331: is there a way to visualize and/or quantify how these two plots (F5 supplement 1a/b) reflect each other or not? Without this, it is hard to ascertain how they relate to each other.

      We have generated an antigenic cartography map instead. As a consequence, the MDS has become redundant and Figure 5 – supplement 1 was removed.

      Figure 4B structural images are not well labelled.

      The active site in 1 of the protomers is now indicated with an arrow in the top and side views of the NA tetramer.

      Lines 339-359: the ML predictions are just predictions and kind of meaningless without experimental validation of the predicted antigenic differences between recent NAs. This section would also be strengthened by an assessment of whether the ML approach obtains more accurate results than simply using phylogeny to predict antigenic relationships.

      Indeed, there is no experimental data from A/Hong_Kong/45/2018, A/Tasmania/503/2020, or A/Darwin/9/2021. The generation of data to determine experimental values for A/Hong_Kong/45/2018, A/Tasmania/503/2020, or A/Darwin/9/2021 would require the generation of new reassortant viruses (H1N2s), recombinant protein and immunization of new ferrets. The ferrets sera would have to be analyzed against all 27 H6N2s, including duplicated control sera for normalization. The major point of the modeling was to evaluate if it is possible to predict the antigenic behavior based on amino acid substitutions.

      As an exercise we have run the model again but this time excluding the Swe17 and HK17 antigens from the data set. Sequences of Sw17 or HK17 were then used to predict antigenic distances. The modeled versus experimental data are plotted in figure R7 and show a robust predictive outcome with R2 values of 0.94 and 0.91 for Sw17 and HK17, respectively. A major advantage of antigenic modeling is the potential to rank or indicate major antigenic divergences based on available sequences before it has consolidated as new clade. The support in selecting or designing broader reactive antigens is another advantage of machine learning analysis.

      Lines 416-421: appreciate the direct comparison of results obtained from ferrets versus mice.

      We thank the reviewer for expressing this appreciation.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1:

      R1-01 - Does ank-G-GFP label all isoforms (190, 270 and 480kDa) of ankG? From the images of the AIS and noR it appears that the large forms (270 and 480 kDa) are probably tagged with GFP. Did the authors check for puncta along dendrites and in dendritic spines, which are thought to be formed by the small (190 kDa) isoform? Perhaps a western blot to show that Ank-G-GFP labels all isoforms would be a useful addition to this study.

      We believe that AnkG-GFP indeed labels the major Ank3 transcripts in the brain, including the 190, 270, and 480 kDa isoforms, based both on known mRNA exon usage and on Western blot analysis (data not shown). Thus, theoretically, this model would be useful for examining the localization of 190 kD ankyrin-G to dendritic spines. While we attempted to examine this in sections from tissue, it was difficult to separate punctate ankyrinG-GFP labeling from the background. However, these experiments were done in genetic crosses that would label most pyramidal neurons in a given area (i.e. CaMKIIa-Cre). Given the Cre-dependence of this model, future experiments could utilize sparse transduction with a Cre virus that also fills neurons with soluble fluorophores (i.e. mCherry or tdTomato) to mark isolated neurons and identify dendritic spines, as exemplified in Fig. 2D. This would allow examination of subcellular localization of ankyrin-G within single pyramidal cells before and after induction of synaptic plasticity.

      R1-02 - In Figure 2, does all the native Ank-G get replaced by Ank-G-GFP? In Fig. 2E the GFP signal along the AIS of CamKII +ve neurons does not appear to be very homogeneous compared to the BIV-spectrin label. Have the authors carried out more experiments like those in 2F, using antibodies that label AnkG together with the GFP fluorescence of the labeled AnkG? It would also be informative to know if, as one might expect, the total levels of ankG-GFP correlate with the levels of ankG at the AIS.

      We agree that this is an important point and conducted additional experiments to address your concerns. Of course, we cannot exclude that some unmodified ankyrin-G remains in the AIS or other structures. We expect the turnover of the protein to be rather slow, and native ankyrin-G likely remains to some degree. However, our quantification demonstrates that the ankyrin-G-GFP labeling is sufficiently homogeneous to accurately represent AIS size, indicating proportional levels of GFP to native ankyrin-G. Animals were crossed with a CaMKIIa-Cre driver line and ex vivo slices were imaged live and after immunolabeling. We found a strong correlation between live ankyrin-G-GFP (patch clamp chamber), postfix ankyrin-G-GFP, postfix ankyrin-G, and βIV-spectrin immunosignals of the same AIS. Furthermore, our measurements of AIS length using the intrinsic GFP signal in combination with ankyrin-G, or βIV-spectrin antibodies showed significant overlap (see R103). We now included these graphs as supplemental Fig. S2 in the manuscript (pp. 8-9, ll. 173-177).

      R1-03 - Does the length and position of the AIS change when Ank-G is tagged with GFP? This seems like important information that is needed to make sure that there are no structural differences in AIS morphology when compared to native Ank-G.

      This is a very important point. We used the βIV-spectrin signal to compare the length of AIS with and without GFP modification in acute slices after patch-clamp recordings (N= 3 animals, 27 GFP+ and 48 GFP- AIS). As secondary control, we plotted the measurements of 160 AIS from a Thy1-GFP mouse line (N = 3 animals, 160 AIS). We found no significant difference in the length and position of the βIV-spectrin signal between GFP positive and negative AIS (p=0.3364 unpaired t-test, p=0.6138 non-parametric Mann-Whitney test, respectively). We have now included this analysis as Supplemental Fig. S2A in the manuscript (pp. 8-9, ll. 173-177). 

      R1-04 - How was node length measured in Figure 3? Was this done using the endogenous ank-G signal? In this figure, it would be informative to also quantify the number of noRs with a Nav1.6 stain. Perhaps even check if there are correlations between Ank-G-GFP and Nav1.6 levels. In this figure, it appears that comparisons are carried out between Ank-G-GFP +ve and -ve neurons in the same cryosections, from Ank-G-GFP mice crossed with CamKIIa-Cre. I worry that this may not be comparing the same types of axons. What cells do the CamKIIa -ve axons belong to? Also, the labels on the bar graph are confusing - perhaps GFP+ve and GFP-ve would be clearer?

      The reviewer raises an important point. We forgot to declare the signal which was used to measure node length in the manuscript. We have corrected this error and clearly state now in the Fig.3C legend that we used the ankyrin-G signal to quantify node length. Furthermore, using CaMKIIa-Cre mediated expression triggers ankyrin-G-GFP only in a genetically defined subset of neurons. Nodes that do not belong to this subgroup might very well have different node properties. Yet, we cannot assign potential differences in node length to the presence or absence of the GFP label, since we do not have an independent labeling technique for the very same subset of neurons. Since node lengths were similar and showed the same spread of lengths in our sample (Fig. 3C), we assume that the GFP length does probably not affect node length to a significant degree. We have now discussed this limitation in the result (p. 7, ll. 159-165) and method section (p. 30, ll. 644-645) and provide Supplementary Fig. S1 for more clarity. As suggested by the reviewer, we have measured mean fluorescence intensities between 91 GFP+ and 141 GFP- nodes using automated image processing in Imaris. The nodes were again defined by the ankyrin-G signal. We found no difference in length and ellipticity between the groups. We repeated this analysis and compared fluorescence intensities of Nav1.6 and ankyrin-G antibodies and again found no statistical differences between both groups. As suggested by the reviewer, we investigated whether ankyrin-G-GFP interferes with the fluorescence intensities of sodium channels (Nav1.6) and ankyrin-G in general. While the GFP signal showed a strong correlation with ankyrin-G, we found no interdependence with the Nav1.6 signal, indicating that the GFP label does not interfere with the general molecular composition of the nodes. We included these new analyses in Supplemental Fig. S1 (p. 7, ll. 159-165).

      R1-05 - In Figure 4 it would also be important to show the distribution of AIS molecules along the AIS, compared to the GFP signal, to establish whether this spatial arrangement of AIS-specific molecules remains intact. For example, Nav1.6 has been described as a more distally-located channel. As the authors point out, the example in A appears to show precisely this feature, but there is no quantification. The same applies to Kv1.2. This would also allow the authors to provide some quantification across multiple AISs, rather than just example images.

      We agree that quantifying and comparing AIS-associated proteins would be informative. We measured the intensity profiles of Nav1.6 and Kv2.1 in neighboring AIS and found no preferences for either end of the AIS, neither of GFP-positive nor GFP-negative AIS. We want to note that not all neurons exhibit a distal localization of Nav1.6 and hypothesize that our samples (neocortex layer II) also fall into this group. We included this new graph as Supplemental Fig. S2D and E in the manuscript (p. 9, ll. 180-184).

      R1-08 - In Figure 4, did the +Cre condition result in all cells showing a GFP-labelled AIS? If not, were the autocorrelations for +Cre-treated neurons done specifically on cells that expressed AnkG-GFP?

      We assume the reviewer refers to the autocorrelation in Figure 6. In this in vitro paradigm, we used virus-induced Cre expression which triggered ankyrin-G-GFP in almost all neurons. The orange boxplots describe the autocorrelation of all ankyrin-G, using a C-terminal antibody as in Fig.6C, but in neurons that also express ankyrin-G-GFP. The green samples use the GFP signal of ankyrin-GFP. We clarified this in the graph and legend of Fig. 6C (pages 14-15).

      R1-09 - As mentioned above in Figure 3, the comparisons in Figure 5 (GFP +ve and -ve neurons) may not be comparing like-for-like neurons. I imagine that many of the CamKII+ve cells in the cortex and hippocampus will be GABAergic interneurons, whereas presumably all of the CamKII+ve neurons will be pyramidal cells. Have the authors made sure that they are comparing across the same cell types? The fact that the number of axo-axonic synapses is similar across the two populations (Fig. 5B) does suggest that similar neuron types (presumably pyramidal cells) were compared in the hippocampus, but some other way of making sure would be a nice addition.

      We agree with the reviewer that the grey and green boxes are not sampled from the same subset of neurons, since only CaMKIIa-positive principal cells will express ankyrin-G-GFP. However, we are confident that the selected AIS belong to pyramidal neurons in both cases. Principal neurons can be well distinguished from interneurons not only by the size, shape, and position of their somas but also by the length and thickness of their AIS. We have performed previous studies on the AIS of interneurons using genetic GAD and parvalbumin markers. Thus, we are confident that the plots in 5A and 5B are sampled from pyramidal neurons, though certainly from genetically different subsets. We now highlight and discuss this limitation in the result section (p. 11, ll. 215-217) and modified the graph in Fig. 5A and 5B for clarity.

      R1-10 - In Figure 6, what was the promoter for the DCre and Cre+ lentivirus? Was this also driven by CamKIIa? In culture it is not always easy to be sure of neuronal identity - did the authors try to bias their analysis to specific neuronal types?

      Indeed, the nature of the promotor was not stated in the legend or method section, which we now corrected. We used lentiviral FUW-nGFP-Cre and FUW-nGFP-ΔCre constructs to trigger ankyrin-G-GFP expression. Both viruses use the CMV (Cytomegalovirus) promoter, which drives constitutively high levels of gene expression in a wide range of cell types, including neuronal cells. The majority of neurons in dissociated hippocampal cultures are excitatory, especially larger cells with larger AIS, which were preferably used in the analysis. Thus, we cannot claim that AIS nanostructure is intact in cultured interneurons, but this is also true for in vivo conditions in general. Since mice did not show any obvious behavioral phenotypes, we are positive that interneuron functionality is preserved. We also note that the parallel expression of nuclear GFP in the infected neurons was undesired, but did not impact STED imaging due to that technique’s high resolution. 

      R1-11 - The ability to visualize the plasticity of the AIS in real-time is an important advance in the field. The loss of proximal Ank-G-GFP signal upon local application of 15 mM KCl is particularly interesting. The fact that neighboring AISs are not affected is surprising - do the authors know how local their KCl application was? Also, although the neighboring AISs are a nice control, the one control lacking here is the local application of normal solution (preferably 15 mM NaCl to account for osmolarity changes) to make sure that this does not affect the properties of the AIS.

      We used KCl puffs in previous, unrelated experiments where we observed that only cells directly in front of the pipette are visibly depolarized by an acute KCl puff (measured by patch-clamp). Due to technical limitations, patched and live imaged neurons were generally in the first 2-5 cell layers of the brain slice, which is well perfused by the constant flow of oxygenated ACSF. KCl is thus quickly diluted and carried away. We have visualized the concentration gradients via puff application by puffing the fluorescent marker fluorescein in the same recording condition. The cone of fluorescence was only visible in front of the pipette and vanished in less than a second post-pressure application. To verify that it is indeed KCl and not the mechanical stress that lead to the loss of proximal Ank-G-GFP, one would indeed need an ACSF puff control, which we did for other studies. However, this is not the point we wanted to make. Instead of studying live single-cell AIS plasticity, we want to demonstrate that such investigations are generally possible using the ankyrin-G-GFP line.

      Author response image 1.

      R1-12 - The ability to be able to image AISs in vivo is another important finding. Were the authors able to image noRs as well?

      We believe that this is indeed the case. The panels in Figure 9C contain densely labeled puncta that also remain in position from week 1 to week 2. These are likely nodes of Ranvier, although we do not have the means to verify their presence at this time.

      Reviewer #2:

      R2-01 - Are there indeed different Ank-G-GFP isoforms expressed in this model and could they correspond to classical neuronal Ank-G isoforms?

      This is an important issue that was also raised by reviewer #1. Please consult the respective section R1-01 above for our response.

      R2-02 - What is the rationale of doing Ank-G co-labelling in the case of Ank-G-GFP expression, rather than Pan-Nav staining for example? The co-staining with Nav1.6 antibody, when present, is however convincing.

      We used the co-labeling to emphasize that the ankyrin-G-GFP construct allows reliable investigation of the whole AIS. This is why we wanted to demonstrate that the ankyrin-G-GFP signal overlaps with other AIS markers, as well as all ankyrin-G in general (including potentially remaining native and unlabeled ankyrin-G). This was also a point raised by Reviewer 1, which is why we provided some additional graphs (see response R1-02). However, we agree that staining with another independent marker, such as Nav1.6 or βIVspectrin was necessary. 

      R2-03 - Figure 2D and F: what is the rationale for not using betaIV-Spectrin staining as in the other panels of this figure? Furthermore, could betaIV-Spectrin localization be affected by Ank-GGFP expression, as betaIV-Spectrin is known to depend on Ank-G for its AIS targeting? Are there any other AIS markers, which localization is known to be independent of Ank-G, that could have been used?

      We have compiled this figure from a multitude of different experimental setups from different labs to showcase the reliability and robustness of the ankyrin-G-GFP label. This is why the type of staining is not consistent among panels. However, we provide some quantification on the possible impact of ankyrin-G-GFP expression on the βIV-spectrin signal and the composition of the AIS in general. The STED image verifies that the basic subcellular arrangement of the cytoskeleton, including βIV-spectrin, remains intact (Fig. 6). Most AIS markers are at least in some way dependent on ankyrin-G expression, but FGF14 and neurofascin may be the most independent candidates (Fig. 4).

      R2-04 - Did the authors measure the mean AIS length and distance from cell soma in Ank-G-GFPexpressing neurons versus non-expressing ones (considering the same neuronal subtypes) to assess whether these were unaffected by Ank-G-GFP expression?

      This is an important point that was also raised by Reviewer 1 (see also our comments to R1-03). We have included this analysis now in the manuscript as Supplemental Fig. S2A (pp. 8-9, ll. 173-177).

      R2-05 - Figure 5C: the microglial staining and 3D reconstruction could have been clearer.

      We have modified the image and 3D rendering to make Figure 5C clearer to the reader. We hope that our changes suffice.

      R2-06 - Figure 8: do hippocampal neurons retain their electrophysiological properties after 20 DIV? It could strengthen this part of the work to have access to the electrophysiological data mentioned in the text. 

      This is an important issue. We did not perform any electrophysiological recordings in OTCs in the course of this study. Panel E uses acute hippocampal slices like in Fig. 7. We have performed patch-clamp experiments up to DIV 10 for an unrelated study (see graph for action potential firing, Author response image 2). There are not many studies performing electrophysiology in slice cultures due to the formation of a glial scar on top of the slices. However, multielectrode array (MEA) recordings demonstrated that hippocampal organotypic slice cultures remain viable and show electric activity past DIV 20 (though with decreased viability and activity). We kindly refer to the following publications on that matter:

      Author response image 2.

      Sample traces of action potentials triggered by cuttrent injections

      Gong W, Senčar J, Bakkum DJ, Jäckel D, Obien ME, Radivojevic M, Hierlemann AR. Multiple SingleUnit Long-Term Tracking on Organotypic Hippocampal Slices Using High-Density Microelectrode Arrays. Front Neurosci. 2016 Nov 22;10:537. doi: 10.3389/fnins.2016.00537. PMID: 27920665; PMCID: PMC5118563.

      Mohajerani MH, Cherubini E. Spontaneous recurrent network activity in organotypic rat hippocampal slices. Eur J Neurosci. 2005 Jul;22(1):107-18. doi: 10.1111/j.1460-9568.2005.04198.x. PMID: 16029200.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript by Tesmer and colleagues uses fiber photometry recordings, sophisticated analysis of movement, and deep learning algorithms to provide compelling evidence that activity in hypothalamic hypocretin/orexin neurons (HONs) correlates with net body movement over multiple behaviors. By examining projection targets, the authors show that hypocretin/orexin release differs in projection targets to the locus coeruleus and substantia nigra, pars compacta. Ablation of HONs does not cause differences in the power spectra of movements. The movement-tracking ability of HONs is independent of HON activity that correlates with blood glucose levels. Finally, the authors show that body movement is not encoded to the same extent in other neural populations.

      Strengths:

      The major strengths of the study are the combination of fiber photometry recordings, analysis of movement in head-fixed mice, and sophisticated classification of movement using deep learning algorithms. The experiments seem to be well performed, and the data are well presented, visually. The data support the main conclusions of the manuscript.

      We thank the reviewer for their supportive feedback.

      Weaknesses:

      The weaknesses are minor, mostly consisting of writing and data visualization throughout the manuscript. To some degree, it is already known that hypocretin/orexin neurons correlate with movement and arousal, although this manuscript studies this correlation with unprecedented sophistication and scale. It is also unfortunate that most of the experiments throughout the study were only performed in male mice. Taken together, this study is likely to be impactful to the field and our understanding of HONs across behavioral states.

      We agree that disentangling movement from arousal is an important aspect, and in the revised manuscript, we now include new data and analyses towards this (pupillometry to directly assess arousal, and multivariate analysis to assess contributions of arousal vs movemement to HON activity). In addition, we now implement many of the reviewer’s recommendations regarding writing, data presentation, and visual clarity (see our replies in the “recommendations for authors” section).

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Some recommendations for the authors:

      (1) The first sentence of the Introduction states: "Neural activity related to body movement recently received much attention." I would rephrase or clarify this statement, as neuroscientists have been studying neural activity related to body movement for decades.

      The reviewer is correct. Our intention was to highlight the resurgence of movementrelated neurosciences enabled by modern techniques such as deep learning applied to video data (e.g. DeepLabCut, etc). The passage has been updated for clarity.

      (2) The Introduction also states that HONs orchestrate "consciousness and arousal." I would delete the word "consciousness," as consciousness represents a lofty, global concept that is challenging to define and quantify in humans, let alone mice.

      We used the word consciousness to be consistent with current literature on the function of the mouse hypothalamus (e.g. Nat Neurosci 2016 Feb;19(2):290-8). But we agree it is not necessary here, and so we followed the advice to delete it.

      (3) The authors state that HON dynamics were recorded while mice were head-fixed while on a running wheel. For clarity, it would be helpful to visualize this head-fixation in Figures 1A and 5B. It would also be helpful to clarify how certain behaviors (e.g. grooming, chewing) were performed and recorded while the mouse was head-fixed.

      In the revised manuscript, updated graphics with a head-fixed mouse have now been added to relevant figures. Representative RGB frames (colors representing sequential frames) of each behaviour have been added to Figure 2A.

      (4) In the legend for Figure 1A, the reference to Gonzalez et al. 2016 seems out of place (at least the reader should be informed why the text is referring to this previous study). Additionally, because the references are ordered by number instead of alphabetically, it would be more helpful to refer to a numbered reference rather than a name.

      Gonzalez et al. 2016 references the source of the AAV construct used in this figure. This has been moved to the methods. Following eLife formatting guidelines, references will be alphabetized upon publication.

      (5) In Figure 3F, it would be helpful to show visual validation that the HON-DTR method indeed ablates all HONs. This is depicted conceptually, but representative figures would be much more convincing.

      A representative histological slice is now included for both wild type (WT) and HON-DTR mice in the new Figure 4B.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Despite several methodological strengths, the major and highly significant drawback is the confound of arousal with movement. This confound is not resolved, so the results could be explained by previously established relationships between orexin and arousal/wakefulness.

      This an excellent point, and we agree. To address this directly in the revised manuscript, we now include new data and analyses towards this (pupillometry to directly assess arousal, and multivariate analysis to assess contributions of arousal vs movemement to HON activity).

      Strengths:

      The authors show that orexin neuron activity is associated with body movement and that this information is conveyed irrespective of the fasted state. They also report differences in different orexin target brain regions for orexin release during movement. This paper contains an impressive array of cutting-edge techniques to examine a very important brain system, the orexin-hypocretin system. The authors offer an original perspective on the function of this system. The authors showed that orexin neuron activity scales to some degree with the magnitude of body movement change; this is unaffected by a fasted state and seems to be somewhat unique to orexin neurons.

      The investigation of other genetically defined subcortical neuron populations to determine the specificity of findings is also a strength, as is the ability to quantify movement and use deep learning to classify specific behaviors adds sophistication to analysis. The authors also show heterogeneity in orexin projections to specific target nuclei, which is interesting.

      The authors "speculate that narcolepsy-cataplexy, caused by HON loss-of-function, is perhaps explained by oscillations into unwanted sleep-states and motor programs due to impaired control loops for wakefulness and movement". This is quite an interesting aspect of their work and deserving of further study.

      We thank the reviewer for their supportive feedback.

      Weaknesses:

      Despite the strengths, there are several major and minor weaknesses that detract significantly from the study.

      My main concern with this work is the confound of arousal with movement so that correlations with one might reflect a relationship instead with the other. The orexin system is well known to play an important role in arousal, with elevated activity of orexin neurons reported for waking and high arousal. Orexin signaling has also been strongly associated with motivation, which also is associated with arousal and movement. The authors offer no compelling evidence that the relationships they describe between different movements and orexin signaling do not simply reflect the known relationship between arousal and motivation.

      The authors could address this concern by including classical arousal measurements, eg, cortical EEG recorded simultaneously with movements. Often, EEG arousal occurs independently of movement, so this could provide one approach to disentangling this confound. The idea that orexin signaling plays a role in arousal rather than movement is supported by their finding that orexin lesions using the orexin-DTR mouse model did not impact movements. In contrast, prior lesion and pharmacologic studies have found that decreased orexin signaling significantly decreases arousal and waking.

      Another way they could test their idea would be to paralyze and respirate animals so that orexin activity could be recorded without movement. Alternatively, animals could be trained to remain motionless to receive a reward. Thus, there are several ways to test the overall hypothesis of this work that have not been examined here.

      The authors propose that "a simple interpretation of their results is that, via HON movement tracking, the brain creates a "wake up" signal in proportion to movement". This seems to argue for the role of the orexin system in arousal and motivation rather than in movement per se.

      Thank you. We agree that disentangling between arousal and movement is indeed critical. A classic approach is a multivariate analysis, wherein multiple simultaneously recorded “predictors” of HON activity – such as arousal and movement - can be directly compared. While EEG arousal is an option, another well-accepted metric for arousal is pupil diameter. Using n = 7 mice, we now simultaneously record HON activity, movement, running speed, pupil size fluctuations, and ocular movements:

      We then fit a partial least squares multivariate regression (a regression type more robust to collinearity) using the movement metric, pupil size, and ocular movements as predictors of orexin neuron activity. Consistent with previous publications, we found that pupil size alone has a positive correlation with hORX.GCaMP6s (~0.45). However, using a drop-one feature analysis in multivariate regression, we found that movement had the highest % contribution to statistically explaining orexin neuron activity. Here are the new results (which we now added as Fig. 7A-B).

      Author response image 1.

      Furthermore, we also expanded this analysis to incorporate the different frequencies found in HON dynamics, using empirical mode decomposition. We found that pupil size had a maximum correlation at lower HON frequencies than the movement metric, while ocular movements were maximally correlated in higher frequencies (now added as Fig. 7D,E).

      Overall, this analysis suggests that – while HONs encode both movement and arousal – arousal and movement do not always co-fluctuate at the same timescales, and their impacts on HONs can be disentangled in a number of ways. We now mention this in revised text on page 5.

      There are several studies that have examined the effect of orexin antagonist treatment in rodents on locomotor and other motor activities. These studies have largely found no consistent effect of antagonizing orexin signaling, especially at the OxR1 receptor, on simple motor activity. These studies are not referenced here but should be taken into account in the authors' conclusions.

      We agree. Prior studies found that orexin antagonism – or optogenetic silencing of HONs – evokes either reduced locomotion, or no effect on locomotor movements. We now added text and references to paragraph 4 of Discussion, summarising this.

      Figure 3, panel F: I understand HON-DTR is a validated model but a picture of HONs ablation is necessary, including pictures of HONs outputs ablation within the SNc and LC.

      A representative histological slice is now included for both wild type (WT) and HON-DTR mice in the new Figure 4B. Because HONs are only found in the hypothalamus, somatic deletion of HONs in this region will result in axonal degradation in output regions.

      The discussion lacks a more extensive paragraph on the distinct signal and role of Ox>SNc and Ox-LC projections.

      We now added sentences discussing potential implications of this to Discussion (middle of paragraph 4).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Minor weaknesses

      A very important movement in rodents is head orientation, especially given the limitation in ocular movement. However, this paper used a fixed head model which obviated this movement and did not attempt to analyze ocular movements.

      Analysing ocular movements is something we had not considered but is very easy to check using pupillometry. In n = 7 mice, we recorded both orexin neurons, and ocular movements captured through an infrared camera under constant lighting. Ocular movements had a small positive correlation with orexin neuron photometry (r = ~0.26). See response to the public review above.

      Author response image 2.

      The "HON" abbreviation is not commonly used for orexin neurons, and I suggest replacing that with a more well-known abbreviation.

      To the best of our knowledge, there is no universally agreed or best-known abbreviation for hypocretin/orexin neurons (we agree it would be nice if there was one!). “HONs” is a simple first letter abbreviation of hypocretin/orexin neurons, which acknowledges the two names for this peptide given by the original discoverers (de Lecea et al, and Sakurai et al, in 1998). Although this may not be the perfect abbreviation, we have kept it for now, also to be consistent with the large number (>10) of other published studies that recently used this abbreviation.

      The graphs showing Pearson's r values do not demonstrate a very strong correlation between neural activity and movement change; they also lack validation of genetic expression/ablation in some cases. The results would more strongly support the conclusions if statistically significant correlations could be demonstrated between activity and movement.

      We agree that a correlation of ~0.68 is probably not worthy of a “very strong” classification. While there is no universal ruleset for categorizing the strength of a correlation, we have toned down our language throughout the manuscript.

      Comment regarding statistical testing of correlations: we are cautious to stand behind correlation significance testing for large sample sizes (~48’000 photometry & video samples in a 40-minute session). In our case, correlations were always extremely significant p<0.0001. The reason for this is that correlation p-values become “too big to fail” (see Lin et al. 2013) with inflated sample size. We therefore refrain from commenting on p-values and rather report between or within-subjects statistical tests, or tests against zero. See four example experiments below.

      Author response image 3.

      Citation: Lin, M., Lucas, H. C., Jr & Shmueli, G. Research Commentary—Too Big to Fail: Large Samples and the p-Value Problem. Information Systems Research 24, 906–917 (2013).

      The rationale for looking at running speed, general movement, and specific types of nonlocomotor movements could be clarified and explained more thoroughly in the introduction. Why is it important to distinguish between locomotion (represented here with running) and all other movements? Presumably, this is because orexin is known to regulate arousal/locomotion. What evidence is there for orexin's role in other types of movements, which are being grouped together in Figure 1? This could be laid out in more detail in the Introduction. Relatedly, it is not very clear in the text whether the correlation between movement and orexin neuron activity includes movement related to running.

      The main focus of our paper is on movement in general (i.e. video pixel difference, described in Results and Methods). This movement metric includes everything captured by the video, it is agnostic to the type of movement or behaviour.  To connect this to some of the specific innate movements/behaviours typically studied in mouse literature (running, grooming, sniffing, etc), we also performed plots in Figure 2. We attempted to explain this better in revised section 1 of Results.

      What exactly is being correlated in Figure 1C (and throughout the rest of the paper?) Is this the average signal correlated with the average movement change over the entire recording time? This could be more explicitly stated in methods/results. The correlations themselves/p-values could be shown in addition to/instead of Pearson's r values. Are the correlations themselves significant? This would strengthen the claim that orexin activity is strongly coupled to the magnitude of body movement change. As another example, in Figure 2D, there are no statistics reported on the correlation between movement metric and average neural signal. In Figure 6G, orexin neuron activity is more strongly correlated with movement than MVe glut neurons, but are either of these correlations significant? The correlation between MVe glut activity and movement overall seems similar to that of orexin neurons, and may be worth noting more explicitly.

      Throughout the paper, we have recorded both neural activity (photometry) and movement at 20 Hz. This would generate, for example, 48’000 samples of photometry and movement from a 40-minute session. All the samples were used to calculate a pearson’s r between variables. To clarify this, we now added the subtext “wholesession” to relevant figures, as well as a clarification in the methods.

      Individual experiment correlations for orexin neurons and MVe glut neurons were always significant p<0.0001, even after a Bonferroni multiple comparisons correction was applied to each population. See the “too big to fail” nature of correlation hypothesis testing above.

      It could be made clearer at the end of Figure 2 that orexin neuron activity is tracking the magnitude of movement change (shown in Figure 2D), not that it is encoding different types of movement.

      We intended for original Figure 2E to illustrate this concept, however this panel has caused a great deal of confusion to several readers and was perhaps ill conceived. We have replaced Figure 2E with a new panel more directly addressing the reviewer’s statement. We can construct three models where orexin neuron activity is predicted from the behavioral classification (sometimes called “one-hot” encoding) and/or the movement metric.

      Model 1 predicts orexin neuron activity using only a categorical predictor of behavioral state. Model 2 only uses the movement metric, and model 3 allows a different movement-metric correlation within each behavioral state. We can compare these models using AIC (Akaike Information Criterion) which is a point estimate. While the most complex model 3 was the best, model 2 was much closer to model 3 than model 1. Similarly, model 2 was much better than model 1. From this we conclude that the magnitude of movement change is a more powerful predictor than behavioral state (“type of movement”). This is now Figure 2E.

      It would be interesting to see the raw movement metric data as shown in Figures 1 and 2 in the DTR mice to show that ablating orexin neurons does not impair the movement profile seen in Figures 1 and 2.

      The requested visualization has been added to Figure 4B.

      Validation that orexin was selectively ablated in these mice would be ideal.

      Histology (see response to public review) was added to a new Figure 4B.

      Figure 4A - OxLight expression in SNc does not look very robust.

      Please note this is a membrane-targeted indicator, the staining this produces is thus much weaker than cyctosolic indicators such as calcium indicator GCaMP.

      Figure 4 - It would be beneficial to see the same correlations that were done in Figures 1 and 2 to show OxLight activity vs. movement metric. Are they correlated?

      Individual traces had significant correlations with OxLight and movement, and the population averages revealed similar trends:

      Author response image 4.

      Figure 6B - Targeting of MVe neurons does not look very specific. The sample size for orexintargeted mice should be re-stated in the figure legend for clarity.

      Legend has been updated to clarify n = 15 for orexin targeted mice.

      Some citations didn't seem to match what was being referenced in the text. Similarly, in the legend for Figure 1C, the statistics do not match what is reported in the text. In Figure 1, the sample size is not noted in the text. When referring to running in Figure 1, is this referring to running speed? Perhaps the language could be more consistent.

      These typos (due to a rounding error) in the legend and text have been corrected. Sample size has been added to the text, and we have changed Figure 1D to clarify we are referring to running speed. We moved some citations to improve clarity.

      Methods - where were Cre mice obtained from?

      Sources now better referenced in Methods (JAX or Parlato et al).

      Figure 1, panel C: The authors compared Pearson's r-coefficient results for each animal and for each variable. However, it would be interesting to show the correlation curves for each variable. However, it would be interesting to show the correlation curves for each variable as well here. Also, there is mention of a strong correlation but it is unclear whether these correlations are significant.

      See below for an example mouse.

      Author response image 5.

      Figure 3, panel F: I understand HON-DTR is a validated model but a picture orexin ablation is necessary, including pictures of orexin fibers ablation within the SNc and LC.

      See our reply to the public review above.

      Figure 5, Panel A: Same comment as Figure 1, panel C.

      We have similarly clarified the panel and legend.

      Page 4: The authors mention "Within the 1st and 4th quartile of blood glucose, movement-HON correlations were not significantly different. Please add the figures.

      The requested plot has been added to Figure 6, panel G.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary

      The study presents an investigation into how hypothalamic orexin neurons (HONs) track body movement with high precision. Using techniques including fiber photometry, video-based movement metrics, and empirical mode decomposition (EMD), the authors demonstrate that HONs encode net body movement consistently across a range of behaviors and metabolic states. They test the ability of HONs to track body movement to that of other subcortical neural populations, from which they distinguish HONs activity from other subcortical neural populations.

      Strengths:

      The study characterizes HONs activity as key indicators of movement and arousal, and this method may have potential implications for understanding sleep disorders, energy regulation, and brain-body coordination. Overall, I think this is a very interesting story, with novel findings and implications about sensorimotor systems in animals. The manuscript is clearly written and the evidence presented is rigorous. The conclusions are well supported by experimental data with clear statistical analyses.

      We thank the reviewer for their supportive feedback.

      Weaknesses/suggestions:

      There are a couple of issues I think the authors could address to make the paper better and more complete:

      (1) The study primarily focuses on steady-state behaviors. It would be interesting if the authors' current dataset allows analyses of HON dynamics during transitions between behavioral states (e.g., resting to running or grooming to sniffing). This could provide additional insights into how HONs adapt to rapid changes in body movement.

      This is a fantastic idea, and easy to check using our classification CNN. We identified the six most frequent behavioral transitions and plotted them in Figure 2H. HONs show rapid dynamics in activity aligned with behavioral changes.

      These changes are very similar to the movement magnitude along these transitions, which is now also plotted in Figure 2G.

      (2) Given the established role of HONs in arousal and wakefulness, the study could further investigate how movement-related HON dynamics interact with arousal states. For example, does HON encoding of movement differ during sleep versus wakefulness?

      To further investigate how movement encoding interacts with arousal, we now include quantification and analysis of pupil-linked arousal (see new Figure 7). We agree it would be interesting to look at what happens during sleep, especially REM sleep when some HONs are thought to be active where there is no/little body movement, but this is beyond the scope of the present study.

      (3) Although HON ablation experiments suggest that HONs do not shape movement frequency profiles. It would be more compelling if the authors could investigate whether HONs contribute to specific types of movements (e.g., fine motor vs. gross motor movements) or modulate movement initiation thresholds.

      We performed this analysis using the k-means classifier for small/large movements. Consistent with previous results, we found no significant effect (p = 0.2767) of genotype on the frequency of identified small (fine) or large (gross) movement clusters. This plot has been added to Figure 4E.

      (4) The heterogeneous movement-related orexin dynamics observed in the LC and SNc raise intriguing questions about the circuit-level mechanisms underlying these differences. Optogenetic or chemogenetic manipulation of these projections could validate the functional implications of these dynamics.

      We agree. We now discuss some implications of this in revised Discussion (paragraph 4). Please note that previous work already demonstrated that orexin action in the SNc can produce locomotion (referenced in the paragraph), though we agree that further work would be valuable.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Additional feedback:

      (1) Figure 1C: the individual data points are hard to track or see. Consider using a larger marker face to help data visualization. Similar issues can be found in Figures 2C, 2E, 5E, 6C, 6F, and 6G.

      Thickness of the lines and scatterplots have been increased.

      (2) First Section of Results: the authors claim to use a deep-learning network to automatically classify video recordings into five distinct behaviors. However, several issues need to be addressed here:

      a. In Results, the corresponding sentence lacks a reference to the Methods Section.

      Reference has been added to the text.

      b. In Methods, the description of the CNN model is quite limited, lacking many basic, necessary components including necessary references to published papers, the model training, characterization (only an overall accuracy is not enough), as well as dataset definition, preparation, augmentation (if any), etc.

      We have expanded the methods section regarding the CNN model.

      (3) First Section of Results: in the second paragraph, the authors claim that "Overall, these results reveal HON population activity precisely tracks a general degree of body movement across recorded behaviors." This is not accurate. To indicate that HONs activity tracks the general degree of body movement across behavior states, they need to further show that behavioral states with similar levels of movement metrics can be differentiated via HON activities. However, as they showed in Figure 2D, some behaviors with similar values of movement metric do not seem to be easily discerned by HON activity levels.

      We agree with you, and this is also what we originally intended to convey – now reworded for clarity.

      (4) Technical issue: Figures 3B, 3C, 3G, using local regression to plot the solid lines makes them touch negative values, which does not make sense for "power proportion" (this quantity is always non-negative).

      This is a good point. To fix this, we first log-transformed the power metric, then performed a local regression, and used the link function to transform the model predictions back to %-units for visualization. This has been noted in the methods.

      (5) Figure 3G: For a better comparison, consider combining the two plots into a single plot.

      The two plots have been merged as shown in Figure 4C.

      (6) Figure 5E: For a better data visualization, the current pair of plots can be consolidated into one single plot where the x-axis is Move and the y-axis is dGlu. In this way, it is easier to understand and the orthogonality as claimed in the manuscript can be more apparent.

      The requested plot has been added as Figure 6F.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study takes a detailed approach to understanding the effect of menopausal hormone therapy (MHT) in the brain aging of females. Neuroimaging data from the UK Biobank is used to explore brain aging and shows an unexpected effect of current MHT use and poorer brain health outcomes relative to never users. There is considerable debate about the benefits of MHT and estrogens in particular for brain health, and this analysis illustrates that the effects are certainly not straightforward and require greater consideration.

      Strengths:

      (1) The detailed approach to obtaining important information about MHT use from primary care records. Prior studies have suggested that factors such as estrogen/progestin type, route of administration, duration, and timing of use relative to menopause onset can contribute to whether MHT benefits brain health.

      (2) Consideration of type of menopause (spontaneous, or surgical) in the analysis, as well as sensitivity diagnoses to rule out the effect being driven by those with clinical conditions.

      (3) The incorporation of the brain age estimate along with hippocampal volume to address brain health.

      (4) The complex data are also well explained and interpretations are reasonable.

      (5) Limitations of the UK Biobank data are acknowledged

      We thank the reviewer for their time and the positive evaluation of our manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Lifestyle factors are listed and the authors acknowledge group differences (at least between current users and never users of MHT). I was not able to find these analyses showing these differences.

      We highlighted and tested for group differences in lifestyle scores, and the results are shown in Table 1-3, column p-value. As highlighted in the method section (page 9): “The lifestyle score was calculated using a published formula (69), and included data on sleep, physical activity, nutrition, smoking, and alcohol consumption (see supplementary Note 3, Table S2)”. In line with reviewer 1 suggestion to the authors, we now included an additional table testing for group differences in the specific lifestyle factors constituting the lifestyle score in the supplementary materials (Table S2). Please find a more detailed response below (Recommendations for the authors, Response to Comment 1).

      (2) The distribution of women who were not menopausal was unequal across groups, and while the authors acknowledge this, one wonders to what extent this explains the observed findings.

      We agree with the reviewer that the unequal distribution of women across groups can influence the observed findings. We have made minor edits to highlight this important topic more explicitly in the discussion:

      Discussion (page 21): “Current MHT users were significantly younger than past- and never-users, and around 67 % were menopausal relative to over 80% in the past- and never-user groups. The unequal distribution of age and menopausal status across groups may have influenced the observed findings. For instance, a larger proportion of the current users might be in the perimenopausal phase, which is often associated with debilitating neurological and vasomotor symptoms (1). MHT is commonly prescribed to minimize such symptoms. Although MHT initiation during perimenopause has been associated with improved memory and hippocampal function, as well as lower AD risk later in life (15), the need for MHT might in itself be an indicator of neurological changes (71); here potentially reflected in higher BAG and lower hippocampal volumes. After the transition to menopause, symptoms might subside and some perimenopausal brain changes might revert or stabilize in the postmenopausal phase 5. Although the UK Biobank lacks detailed information on menopausal symptoms and perimenopausal staging, our results might be capturing subtle disturbances during perimenopause that later stabilize. This could explain why the largely postmenopausal groups of past MHT users and never-users present with lower GM and WM BAG than the current user group. Considering the critical window hypothesis emphasizing perimenopause as a key phase for MHT action (29,43), future longitudinal studies are crucial to clarify the interplay between neurological changes and MHT use across the menopause transition.”

      Discussion (page 25): “In addition, previous studies highlight that UK Biobank participants are considered healthier than the general population based on several lifestyle and health-related factors (89, 90). This healthy volunteer bias increases with age, likely resulting in a disproportionate number of healthier older adults. Together with the imbalance in age distributions across groups, this might explain the less apparent brain aging in the older MHT user groups. We have previously highlighted that age is negatively associated with the number of APOE ε4 carriers in the UK Biobank (21), which is indicative of survivor bias.”

      (3) While the interpretations are reasonable, and relevant theories (healthy cell & critical window) are mentioned, the discussion is missing a more zoomed-out perspective of the findings. While I appreciate wanting to limit speculation, the reader is left having to synthesize a lot of complex details on their own. A particularly difficult finding to reconcile is under what conditions these women benefit from MHT and when do they not (and why that may be).

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. As the presented data is cross-sectional and does not enable causal inference, we have refrained from a more zoomed-out interpretation of the results to avoid undue speculations. However, where applicable, we have discussed our findings in a broader context such as the effects of MHT use on the brain across the menopausal transition (discussion page 21) and the effects of MHT use on the brain in the presence and absence of bilateral oophorectomy and/or hysterectomy (discussion page 25).

      To best inform the reader about the scope of our paper, we would like to highlight the following sentences in our discussion (page 24):

      “The current work represents the most comprehensive study of detailed MHT data, APOE ε4 genotype, and several brain measures in a large population-based cohort to date. Overall, our findings do not unequivocally support general neuroprotective effects of MHT, nor do they indicate severe adverse effects of MHT use on the female brain. The results suggest subtle yet complex relationships between MHT’s and brain health, highlighting the necessity for a personalized approach to MHT use. Importantly, our analyses provide a broad view of population-based associations and are not designed to guide individual-level decisions regarding the benefits versus risks of MHT use.”

      And the conclusion (page 25): “In conclusion, our findings suggest that associations between MHT use and female brain health might vary depending on duration of use and past surgical history. Although the effect sizes were generally modest, future longitudinal studies and RCTs, particularly focused on the perimenopausal transition window, are warranted to fully understand how MHT use influences female brain health. Importantly, considering risks and benefits, decisions regarding MHT use should be made within the clinical context unique to each individual.”

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Can the authors provide:

      (1) More information about which aspects of lifestyle factors were different between the groups, and how these factors may have contributed to the observed findings (if possible, without burying this information in the supplemental)?

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We now added a table comparing lifestyle factors contained in the lifestyle score by MHT user status using t-tests (continuous variables) or χ2 tests (see Table S2). The results are referred to in the main manuscript result section under “Sample characteristics”, and the table (Table S2) is provided in the supplements not to overburden the main text, in line with input from reviewer 3.

      We updated the main text to refer to Table S2 and updated the supplementary Note 3 (page 2-3) to include the results of the comparison of the lifestyle factors contained in the lifestyle score by MHT user status.

      Methods, page 9:“The lifestyle score was calculated using a published formula (69), and included data on sleep, physical activity, nutrition, smoking, and alcohol consumption (see supplementary Note 3, Table S2).”

      Results, page 13: “Sample demographics including lifestyle score, stratified by MHT user group, surgical history among MHT users, and estrogen only MHT or combined MHT use, are summarized in Table 1, 2 and 3, respectively. MHT user group differences for each lifestyle factor contained in the lifestyle score are shown in Table S2.”

      “Note 3| Lifestyle Score

      The lifestyle score was calculated based on sleep duration, time spent watching television, current and past smoking status, alcohol consumption frequency, physical activity level (number of days per week of moderate/vigorous activity for at least 10 minutes), intake of fruits and vegetables, and intake of oily fish, beef, lamb/mutton, pork and processed meat (for details see (10)). Each unhealthy lifestyle factor was scored with 1 point (e.g., smoking), and participants points were summed to generate an unweighted score (from 0-9): the higher the lifestyle score, the unhealthier the participant’s lifestyle.

      A comparison of the lifestyle factors contained in the lifestyle score by MHT user status is presented in Table S2. In summary, we found that current MHT were more often smokers than never-users, had a higher alcohol intake than never- and past MHT users, reported the lowest fruit and vegetable intake relative to never-users and past MHT users, and stated lower moderate activity levels relative to past MHT users. Past MHT users reported higher alcohol intake than never-users, spend more time watching TV relative to never- and current-users, consumed more beef, pork, lamb/mutton, and processed meat than never-users, and reported lower vigorous activity levels relative to never-users. However, oily fish intake and fruit and vegetable intake was higher among past MHT users relative to never-and current-users. Self-reported sleep duration did not differ between MHT user groups.”

      (2) A greater description of the 2 main theories of MHT effects on the brain (healthy cell vs critical window). Can the authors also provide a more thorough explanation for how the findings fit with these theories.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. We have described our findings in the context of the critical window hypothesis (discussion, page 21, paragraph 2), the healthy cell bias hypothesis (discussion, page 22, paragraph 3), and healthy user bias hypothesis (discussion, page 22, paragraph 4). We refrained from a more thorough explanation to avoid undue speculations.

      (3) Reflect more on what the findings may indicate as to who benefits from MHT, and why. There are some references that the authors may want to add, particularly related to recent findings from premenopausal bilateral oophortectomies that also speak to when (and for whom) MHT use might benefit.

      We thank the reviewer for this feedback. We have included additional references in the revised manuscript as follows:

      Discussion, page 23: “It is also possible that the timing between MHT use and surgery is more tightly controlled and therefore more beneficial for brain aging (43). For instance, studies suggest that MHT may mitigate the potential long-term adverse effects of bilateral oophorectomy before natural menopause on bone mineral density as well as cardiovascular, cognitive and mental health (79-81). In addition, a 2024 UK Biobank study found that ever used MHT was associated with decreased odds of Alzheimer’s disease in women with bilateral oophorectomy (82).”  

      (79) Blumel JE, Arteaga E, Vallejo MS, et al. Association of bilateral oophorectomy and menopause hormone therapy with mild cognitive impairment: the REDLINC X study. Climacteric 2022;25:195-202.

      (80) Kaunitz AM, Kapoor E, Faubion S. Treatment of Women After Bilateral Salpingo-oophorectomy Performed Prior to Natural Menopause. JAMA 2021;326:1429-1430.

      (81) Stuursma A, Lanjouw L, Idema DL, de Bock GH, Mourits MJE. Surgical Menopause and Bilateral Oophorectomy: Effect of Estrogen-Progesterone and Testosterone Replacement Therapy on Psychological Well-being and Sexual Functioning; A Systematic Literature Review. J Sex Med 2022;19:1778-1789.

      (82) Calvo N, McFall GP, Ramana S, et al. Associated risk and resilience factors of Alzheimer's disease in women with early bilateral oophorectomy: Data from the UK Biobank. J Alzheimers Dis 2024;102:119-128.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this observational study, Barth et al. investigated the association between menopausal hormone therapy and brain health in middle- to older-aged women from the UK Biobank. The study evaluated detailed MHT data (never, current, or past user), duration of mHT use (age first/last used), history of hysterectomy with or without bilateral oophorectomy, APOEE4 genotype, and brain characteristics in a large, population-based sample. The researchers found that current mHT use (compared to never-users), but not past use, was associated with a modest increase in gray and white matter brain age gap (GM and WM BAG) and a decrease in hippocampal volumes. No significant association was found between the age of mHT initiation and brain measures among mHT users. Longer duration of use and older age at last MHT use post-menopause were associated with higher GM and WM BAG, larger WMH volumes, and smaller hippocampal volumes. In a sub-sample, after adjusting for multiple comparisons, no significant associations were found between detailed mHT variables (formulations, route of administration, dosage) and brain measures. The association between mHT variables and brain measures was not influenced by APOEE4 allele carrier status. Women with a history of hysterectomy with or without bilateral oophorectomy had lower GM BAG compared to those without such a history. Overall, these observational data suggest that the association between mHT use and brain health in women may vary depending on the duration of use and surgical history.

      Strengths:

      (1) The study has several strengths, including a large, population-based sample of women in the UK, and comprehensive details of demographic variables such as menopausal status, history of oophorectomy/hysterectomy, genetic risk factors for Alzheimer's disease (APOE ε4 status), age at mHT initiation, age at last use, duration of mHT, and brain imaging data (hippocampus and WMH volume).

      (2) In a sub-sample, the study accessed detailed mHT prescription data (formulations, route of administration, dosage, duration), allowing the researchers to study how these variables were associated with brain health outcomes. This level of detail is generally missing in observational studies investigating the association of mHT use with brain health.

      We thank the reviewer for their time and the positive evaluation of our manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) While the study has many strengths, it also has some weaknesses. As highlighted in an editorial by Kantarci & Manson (2023), women with symptoms such as subjective cognitive problems, sleep disturbances, and elevated vasomotor symptoms combined with sleep disturbances tend to seek mHT more frequently than those without these symptoms. The authors of this study have also indicated that the need of mHT use which might be associated with these symptoms may be indicators of preexisting neurological changes, potentially reflecting worse brain health scores, including higher BAG and lower hippocampal volume and/or higher WMH. However, among current users, how many of these women have these symptoms could not be reported in the study. Women with these vasomotor symptoms who are using mHT are more likely to stay longer in the healthcare system compared with those without these symptoms and no MHT use history. The authors noted that the UK Biobank lacks detailed information on menopausal symptoms and perimenopausal staging, limiting the study's ability to understand how these variables influence outcomes.

      We thank the reviewer for the succint synopsis of the limitations highlighted in discussion, page 21. We have now added the mentioned reference, 2023 editoral by Kantarci & Manson, to the discussion as well (see reference 71).

      Discussion (page 21): “Current MHT users were significantly younger than past- and never-users, and around 67 % were menopausal relative to over 80% in the past- and never-user groups. The unequal distribution of age and menopausal status across groups may have influenced the observed findings. For instance, a larger proportion of the current users might be in the perimenopausal phase, which is often associated with debilitating neurological and vasomotor symptoms (1). MHT is commonly prescribed to minimize such symptoms. Although MHT initiation during perimenopause has been associated with improved memory and hippocampal function, as well as lower AD risk later in life (15), the need for MHT might in itself be an indicator of neurological changes (71); here potentially reflected in higher BAG and lower hippocampal volumes. After the transition to menopause, symptoms might subside and some perimenopausal brain changes might revert or stabilize in the postmenopausal phase 5. Although the UK Biobank lacks detailed information on menopausal symptoms and perimenopausal staging, our results might be capturing subtle disturbances during perimenopause that later stabilize. This could explain why the largely postmenopausal groups of past MHT users and never-users present with lower GM and WM BAG than the current user group. Considering the critical window hypothesis emphasizing perimenopause as a key phase for MHT action (29,43), future longitudinal studies are crucial to clarify the interplay between neurological changes and MHT use across the menopause transition.”

      (2)  Earlier observational studies have reported conflicting results regarding the association between mHT use and the risk of dementia and brain health. Contrary to some observational studies, three randomized trials (WHI, KEEPS, ELITE) (Espeland et al 2013, Gleason et al 2015; Henderson et al 2016) demonstrated neither beneficial nor harmful effects of mHT (with varying doses and formulations) when initiated closer to menopause (<5 years). While strong efforts were made to run proper statistical analyses to investigate the association between mHT use and brain health, these results reflect mainly associations, but not causal relationships as also stated by the authors.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing that out.

      (3)  Furthermore, observational studies have intrinsic limitations, such as a lack of control over switching mHT doses and formulations, a lack of laboratory measures to confirm mHT use, and reliance on self-reported data, which may not always be reliable. The authors caution that these findings should not guide individual-level decisions regarding the benefits versus risks of mHT use. However, the study raises new questions that should be addressed by randomized clinical trials to investigate the varying effects of MHT on brain health and dementia risk.

      We thank the reviewer for making our efforts in providing proper disclaimers in the discussion visible.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) The study could benefit from extending these findings by adding plasma biomarkers of AD and PET imaging markers to further study the association of mHT variables with brain health.

      We agree with the reviewer that such markers would be beneficial for elucidating the association between MHT variables and brain health. Unfortunately, these markers are not readily available in the UK Biobank.

      (2) The study's reliance on a predominantly white cohort limits the generalizability of the findings to more diverse populations. This homogeneity may not capture the full spectrum of responses to MHT across different ethnic and genetic backgrounds.

      We fully agree with the reviewers statement and state this limitation in the discussion (page 25) as follows:

      “In addition to these inherent biases in aging cohorts, the ethnic background of the sample is homogeneous (> 96% white), further reducing the generalizability of the results.”

      (3) The study may benefit by editing the following information in the introduction: "In summary, WHIMS, HERS, and KEEPS mainly relied on orally administered CEE in older-aged or recently postmenopausal females." KEEPS used two routes and formulations (transdermal estradiol and oCEE, both with micronized progesterone).

      We thank the reviewer for catching this oversight. We removed the sentence to avoid ambiguities and revised the sentence specifically refering to the KEEPS study as follows:

      Introduction, page 3: “In contrast, administering oral CEE or transdermal estradiol plus micronized progesterone in recently postmenopausal females did not alter cognition in the Kronos Early Estrogen Prevention Study (KEEPS) (28).”

      (4) The study may benefit by editing the following statement in the introduction: "oral CEE use in combination with MPA seems to increase the risk for AD regardless of timing": I would suggest revising this statement, which is based on review article 29. The statement of the adverse effect of oCEE regardless of the time of start contradicts earlier randomized clinical findings. I think it is important to make a distinction between the outcomes of randomized control trials and observational studies. The WMIHS (Shumaker et al., 2003) (randomized control trial) reported that there was an increased risk of dementia for women (who were more than 10 years from the onset of menopause when the therapy was initiated) in oCEE + MPA compared to placebo. Two other long-duration randomized trials tested the effect of oral oestrogen and progesterone treatment on cognitive function in women who started treatment shortly after menopause (within 3 or 6 years) did not find evidence that treatment benefits or harms cognitive function compared with placebo (Gleason et al., 2015; Henderson et al., 2016). A short-term (4 months) randomized trial (Maki et al 2007 (Maki et al., 2007) (mentioned in ref 29) reported a potential negative effect of CEE/MPA on verbal memory in women who started HT shortly after menopause (within 3 years). The study did not investigate the risk of dementia, and the duration of use of HT was short-term.

      We thank the reviewer for this detailed input. After checking the provided references, we rephrased the sentence as follows:

      Introduction, page 4:“Although emerging evidence supports this hypothesis (30, 31), oral CEE use in combination with MPA has been found to increase the risk for memory decline regardless of timing (26, 29, 32).”

      We believe this formulation is more in line with the evidence provided by Shumaker et al. 2003, Maki et al. 2007 and the other references provided in the review paper by Maki and colleagues (mentioned in ref. 29). The reviewer further refers to Gleason et al. 2015 and Henderson et al. 2016, however both RCTs use micronized progesterone, not MPA, thereby not supporting the statement.

      (26) Shumaker SA, Legault C, Rapp SR, et al. Estrogen plus progestin and the incidence of dementia and mild cognitive impairment in postmenopausal women: the Women's Health Initiative Memory Study: a randomized controlled trial. JAMA 2003;289:2651-2662.

      (29) Maki PM. Critical window hypothesis of hormone therapy and cognition: a scientific update on clinical studies. Menopause 2013;20:695-709.

      (32) Maki PM, Gast MJ, Vieweg AJ, Burriss SW, Yaffe K. Hormone therapy in menopausal women with cognitive complaints: a randomized, double-blind trial. Neurology 2007;69:1322-1330.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      In this study Barth et al. present results of detailed analyses of the relationships between menopausal hormone therapy (MHT), APOE ε4 genotype, and measures of anatomical brain age in women in the UK Biobank. While past studies have investigated the links between some of these variables (including works by the authors themselves), this new study adds more detailed MHT variables, surgical status, and additional brain aging measures. The UK biobank sample is large, but it is a population cohort and many of the MHT measures are self-reported (as the authors point out). However, the authors present a solid analysis of the available information which shows associations between MHT user status, length of MHT use, as well as surgical status with brain age. However, as the authors themselves state, the results do not unequivocally support the neuroprotective or adverse effect of MHT on the brain. I think this work strengthens the case for the need of better-designed longitudinal studies investigating the effect of MHT on the brain in the peri/post-menopausal stage.

      Strengths:

      (1) The authors addressed the statistical analyses rigorously. For example, multiple testing corrections, outlier removal, and sensitivity analysis were performed carefully. Ample background information is provided in the introduction allowing even individuals not familiar with the field to understand the motivation behind the work. The discussion section also does a great job of addressing open questions and limitations. Very detailed results of all statistical tests are provided either in the main text or in the supplementary information.

      We thank the reviewer for their time and the positive evaluation of our manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) For me, the biggest weakness was the presentation of the results. As many variables are involved and past studies have investigated several of these questions, it would have helped to better clarify the analysis and questions that are addressed by this study in particular and what sets this work apart from past studies. The information is present in the manuscript but better organization might have helped. For example, a figure depicting the key questions near the beginning of the manuscript would have been very helpful for me. The Tables also contain a lot of information but I wonder if there might be a way to capture the most relevant information more succinctly (either in Table format or in a figure) for the main text.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. We do agree that with the large number of analyses it can be hard to keep an overview. We now added a Figure summarizing the main and sensitity analyses by sample.

      (2) Another concern I had was the linear models investigating the effects of these MHT variables on the brain age gap. The authors have included "age" as one of the parameters in this analysis. I wonder if adding a quadratic age factor age2 in the model might have improved the fit since many brain phenotypes tend to show quadratic brain age effects in the 40 to 80-year age range.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have rerun the main analysis in the whole sample (model 1) with age squared as an additional covariate, and compared the gray matter brain age gap model fits using the corrected Akaike Information Criterion (AIC). All models with age squared had a better model fit than models without age squared (see Author response table 1). Hence, in the revised manuscript, we added a sensitivity analysis rerunning the model 1 with age squared to account for potential non-linear effect. The results were largely consistent. The manuscript was revised as follows to reflect the added analysis:

      Sensitivity analysis (Methods, Page 11): “To test whether the results were influenced by the inclusion of participants with ICD-10 diagnosis or by non-linear effects of age, the main analyses (models 1-2) were re-run excluding the sub-sample with diagnosed brain disorders (see supplementary Note 2) or adding age(2) as additional covariate, respectively.”

      Sensitivity analysis (Results, Page 20): “The results were consistent after removing participants with ICD-10 diagnoses known to impact the brain (see Table S9 for model 1 analyses and Table S10 for model 2 analyses), after additionally adjusting for age(2) (see Table S11), and after removing extreme values (see Table S12 for model 1 analyses).”

      Author response table 1.

      Gray matter brain age gap model selection based on corrected Akaike Information Criterion (AICc)

      Abbreviations and explanations of parameters: MHT = menopausal hormone therapy, K = number of estimated parameters for each model, AICc = the information criterion requested for each model, ΔAICc = the appropriate delta AIC component depending on the information criteria selectedModelLik = the relative likelihood of the model given the data, AICcWT = Akaike weights to indicate the level of support in favor of any given model being the most parsimonious among the candidate model sets, LL = log-likelihood of each model.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Please note typo in Figures 2 and 3 legend "GM WM".

      We thank the reviewer for catching this typo and we changed it to BAG GM and BAG WM for all Figures for consistency.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The authors demonstrated that NINJ1 promotes TF-positive MV release during pyroptosis and thereby triggers coagulation. Coagulation is one of the risk factors that can cause secondary complications in various inflammatory diseases, making it a highly important therapeutic target in clinical treatment. This paper effectively explains the connection between pyroptosis and MV release with Ninj1, which is a significant strength. It provides valuable insight into the potential of targeting Ninj1 as a therapeutic strategy.

      Although the advances in this paper are valuable, several aspects need to be clarified. Some comments are discussed below. 

      (1) Since it is not Ninj1 directly regulating coagulation but rather the MV released by Ninj1 playing a role, the title should include that. The current title makes it seem like Ninj1 directly regulates inflammation and coagulation. It would be better to revise the title.

      Thanks for the thoughtful comments. We show that the release of procoagulant MVs by plasma membrane rupture (PMR) is a critical step in the activation of coagulation. In addition, the release of cytokines and danger molecules by PMR may also contribute to coagulation. In choosing the title, we are trying to emphasize NINJ1-dependent PMR as a common trigger for these biological processes.

      (2) Ninj1 is known to be an induced protein that is barely expressed in normal conditions. As you showed in "Fig1G" data, control samples showed no detection of Ninj1. However, in "Figure S1", all tissues (liver, lung, kidney and spleen) expressed Ninj1 protein. If the authors stimulated the mice with fla injection, it should be mentioned in the figure legend. 

      We respectfully disagree with the comment that “Ninj1 is known to be an induced protein that is barely expressed in normal conditions”. NINJ1 protein is abundantly expressed (without induction) in tissues including liver, lung, kidney, and spleen, as shown in Fig S1. Consistently, other groups have shown abundant NINJ1 expression at baseline in tissues and cells such as liver (Kayagaki et.al. Nature 2023) and BMDM (Kayagaki et.al. Nature 2021; Borges et.al. eLife 2023). Fig 1G shows fibrin deposition as an indicator of coagulation, not NINJ1 protein.

      (3) In "Fig3A", the Ninj1 protein expression was increased in the control of BMDM +/- cell lysate rather than fla stimulation. However, in MV, Ninj1 was not detected at all in +/- control but was only observed with Fla injection. The authors need to provide an explanation for this observation. Additionally, looking at the MV β-actin lane, the band thicknesses appear to be very different between groups. It seems necessary to equalize the protein amounts. If that is difficult, at least between the +/+ and +/- controls. 

      Thanks for the valuable comments. In Fla-stimulated Ninj1+/- BMDMs, most of the NINJ1 is released in MVs, therefore, not in the cell lysate, as shown in Fig 3A. The difference in beta-actin band intensity correlated with MV numbers shown in Fig 3B. We ensure consistency by using the same number of cells.

      (4) Since the authors focused Ninj1-dependent microvesicle (MV) release, they need to show MV characterizations (EM, NTA, Western for MV markers, etc...). 

      Thanks for the suggestion. We now add NTA analysis of MV for BMDMs in Fig S4C.

      (5) To clarify whether Ninj1-dependent MV induces coagulation, the authors need to determine whether platelet aggregation is reduced with isolated +/- MVs compared to +/+ MVs. 

      Thanks for the suggestion. We agree that platelet aggregation is closely linked to blood coagulation but would argue that one does not directly cause the other. While it would be interesting to examine whether MVs induce platelet aggregation, we hope the reviewer would agree that the outcome of this experiment would neither significantly support nor challenge our statement that NINJ1-dependent PMR promotes coagulation.

      (6) Even with the authors well established experiments with haploid mice, it is a critical limitation of this paper. To improve the quality of this paper, the authors should consider confirming the findings using mouse macrophage cell lines, such as generating Ninj1-/- Raw264.7 cell lines, to examine the homozygous effect. 

      Thanks for the valuable comments. We acknowledge the limitation of using haploid mice in this study. However, our data provides strong evidence supporting the role of NINJ1-dependent plasma membrane rupture in blood coagulation using primary macrophages.

      (7) There was a paper reported in 2023 (Zhou, X. et al., NINJ1 Regulates Platelet Activation and PANoptosis in Septic Disseminated Intravascular Coagulation. Int. J. Mol. Sci. 2023) that revealed the relationship between Ninj1 and coagulation. According to this paper, inhibition of Ninj1 in platelets prevents pyroptosis, leading to reduced platelet activation and, consequently, the suppression of thrombosis. How about the activation of platelets in Ninj1 +/- mice? The author should add this paper in the reference section and discuss the platelet functions in their mice.

      Thanks for the valuable comments. We examine PT time, plasma TAT, and tissue fibrin deposition as direct evidence of blood coagulation in this manuscript. We acknowledge that platelets play a key role in thrombosis; however, we hope the reviewer would agree that tissue factor-induced blood coagulation and platelet aggregation are linked yet distinct processes. Therefore, the role of NINJ1 in platelet aggregation falls beyond the scope of this manuscript.


      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews: 

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      Referring to previous research findings, the authors explain the connection between NINJ1 and MVs. Additional experiments and clarifications will strengthen the conclusions of this study.

      Below are some comments I feel could strengthen the manuscript: 

      (1) The authors mentioned their choice of using heterozygous NINJ1+/- mice on page 4, because of lethality and hydrocephalus. Nonetheless, there is a substantial number of references that use homozygous NINJ1-/- mice. Could there be any other specific reasons for using heterozygous mice in this study? 

      Thanks for the thoughtful comments. We are aware that a few homozygous NINJ1-/- mouse strains were used in several publications by different groups, including Drs. Kayagaki and Dixit (Genentech), from whom we obtained the heterozygous NINJ1+/- breeders. We do not have experience with the homozygous NINJ1-/- mice used by other groups. It’s reasonable to assume that homozygous NINJ1-/-, if healthy, would have even stronger protection against coagulopathy than heterozygous NINJ1+/-. The only reason for not using homozygous mice in this study is that a majority of our homozygous NINJ1-/- develops hydrocephalus around weaning and these mice are required to be euthanized by the rules of our DLAR facility. Although our homozygous NINJ1-/- mice develop hydrocephalus (the same reported by Drs. Kayagaki and Dixit, PMID: 37196676, PMCID: PMC10307625), heterozygous NINJ1+/- mice remain healthy.

      (2) Figure S2 clearly shows the method of pyroptosis induction by flagellin. It is also necessary as a prerequisite for this paper to show the changes in flagellin-induced pyroptosis in heterozygous NINJ1+/- mice.

      Thanks for the valuable suggestions. We agree that a plasma LDH measurement as an indicator of pyroptosis in vivo would add to the manuscript. Therefore, we have made several attempts to measure plasma LDH in flagellin-challenged WT and NINJ1+/- mice using CytoTox96 Non-Radioactive Cytotoxicity Assay (a Promega kit commonly used for LDH, Promega#G1780). Flagellin-challenged WT and NINJ1+/- mice develops hemolysis, which renders plasma red. Because plasma coloring interferes with the assay, we could not get a meaningful reading to make an accurate comparison. We also tried LHD-Glo Cytotoxicity Assay (Luciferase based, Promega#J2380) with no luck on both plasma and serum. We hope the reviewer would agree that reduced plasma MV count (Fig 3C) would serve as an alternative indictor for reduced pyroptosis.

      (3) IL-1ß levels controlled by GSDMD were not affected by NINJ1 expression according to previous studies (Ref 37, 29, Nature volume 618, pages 1065-1071 (2023)). GSDMD also plays an important role in TF release in pyroptosis. Are GSDMD levels not altered in heterozygous NINJ1 +/- mice?  

      Thanks for raising these great points. It’s been reported that IL-1β secretion in cell culture supernatant were not affected by NINJ1 deficiency or inhibition when BMDMs were stimulated by LPS (Ref 29, 37, now Ref 29, 35) or nigericin (Ref 29). As GSDMD pore has been shown to facilitate the release of mature IL-1β, these in vitro observations are reasonable given that NINJ1-mediated PMR is a later event than GSDMD pore-forming. However, we observed that plasma IL-1β (also TNFα and IL-6) in Ninj1+/- mice were significantly lower. There are a few differences in the experimental condition that might contribute to the discrepancy: 1, there was no priming in our in vivo experiment, while priming in BMDMs were performed in both in vitro observations before stimulating with LPS or nigericin; 2, the flagellin in our study engages different inflammasome than either LPS or nigericin. Priming might change the expression and dynamics of IL-1β. More importantly, there might be unrecognized mechanisms in IL-1β secretion in vivo. We now add discussion on this in the main text.

      We examined GSDMD protein levels in liver, lung, kidney, and spleen from WT and NINJ1+/- mice by Western blotting. The data is now presented in the updated Fig S1, we did not observe apparent difference in GSDMD expression between the two genotypes.

      (4) In Fig 1 F, the authors used a fibrin-specific monoclonal antibody for staining fibrin, but it's not clearly defined. There may be some problem with the quality of antibody or technical issues. Considering this, exploring alternative methods to visualize fibrin might be beneficial. Fibrin is an acidophil material, so attempting H&E staining or Movat's pentachrome staining might help for identify fibrin areas.

      Thanks for the valuable suggestions. The fibrin-specific monoclonal antibody in our study is mouse anti-fibrin monoclonal antibody (59D8). This antibody has been shown to bind to fibrin even in the presence of human fibrinogen at the concentration found in plasma [Hui et al. (1983). Science. 222 (4628); 1129-1132]. We apologize that we did not cite the reference in our initial submission. We obtained this antibody from Dr. Hartmut Weiler at Medical College of Wisconsin and Dr. Rodney M. Camire at the University of Pennsylvania, who were acknowledged in our initial submission.

      We performed H&E staining on serial sections of the same tissues for Figure 1F. The data is now presented as Fig S3.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      The author's main goal is to understand the mechanism by which pyroptosis (through the formation of Gasdermin D (GSDMD) pores in the plasma membrane) contributes to increased release of procoagulant Tissue Factor-containing microvesicles (MV). Their previous data demonstrate that GSDMD is critical for the release of MV that contains Tissue Factor (TF), thus making a link between pyroptosis and hypercoagulation. Given the recent identification of NINJ1 being responsible for plasma membrane rupture (Kayagaki et al. Nature 2011), the authors wanted to determine if NINJ1 is responsible for TF-containing MV release. Given the constitutive ninj1 KO mouse leads to partial embryonic lethality, the authors decided to use a heterozygous ninj1 KO mouse (ninj1+/-). While the data are well controlled, there is limited understanding of the mechanism of action. Also, given that the GSDMD pores have an ~18 nm inner diameter enough to release IL-1β, while larger molecules like LDH (140 kDa) and other DAMPs require plasma membrane rupture (likely mediated by NINJ1), it s not unexpected that large MVs require NINJ1-mediated plasma cell rupture. 

      Strengths: 

      The authors convincingly demonstrate that ninj1 haploinsufficiency leads to decreased prothrombin time, plasma TAT and plasma cytokines 90 minutes post-treatment in mice, which leads to partial protection from lethality. 

      Weaknesses: 

      - In the abstract, the authors say "...cytokines and protected against blood coagulation and lethality triggered by bacterial flagellin". This conclusion is not substantiated by the data, as you still see 70% mortality at 24 hours in the ninj1+/- mice. 

      Thanks for the thoughtful comments. We corrected the text to “partially protected against blood coagulation and lethality triggered by bacterial flagellin”.

      - The previous publication by the authors (Wu et al. Immunity 2019) clearly shows that GSDMDdependent pyroptosis is required for inflammasome-induced coagulation and mouse lethality. However, as it is not possible for the authors to use the homozygous ninj1 KO mouse due to partial embryonic lethality, it becomes challenging to compare these two studies and the contributions of GSDMD vs. NINJ1. Comparing the contributions of GSDMD and NINJ1 in human blood-derived monocytes/macrophages where you can delete both genes and assess their relevant contributions to TF-containing MV release within the same background would be crucial in comparing how much contribution NINJ1 has versus what has been published for GSDMD? This would help support the in vivo findings and further corroborate the proposed conclusions made in this manuscript.  

      Thanks for the valuable question. We have shown that plasma MV TF activity was reduced in both GSDMD deficient mice (Ref 23) and Ninj1+/- mice (present manuscript). Given that TF is a plasma membrane protein, MV TF most likely comes from ruptured plasma membrane. In flagellin-induced pyroptosis, both GSDMD and NINJ1 deficiency equally blocked LDH release (plasma membrane rupture) in BMDMs (Ref 29). Further, in pyroptosis glycine acts downstream of GSDMD pore formation for its effect against NINJ1 activation (Ref 35). Therefore, GSDMD pore-forming should be upstream of NINJ1 activation in pyroptosis (which may not be the case in other forms of cell death) and there are likely equal effects of GSDMD and NINJ1 on MV release in flagellin-induced pyroptosis. As the reviewer suggested, experiments using human blood-derived monocytes/macrophages will enable a direct comparison to determine the relative contribution. However, this approach presents a few technical difficulties: it’s not easy to manipulate gene expression on primary human monocytes/macrophages (in our experience); variable efficiency in gene manipulation of GSDMD and NINJ1 will complicate the comparison. I hope the reviewer would agree that a direct comparison between GSDMD and NINJ1 is not required to support our conclusion that NINJ1-dependent membrane rupture is involved in inflammasome-pyroptosis induced coagulation and inflammation.

      - What are the levels of plasma TAT, PT, and inflammatory cytokines if you collect plasma after 90 minutes? Given the majority (~70%) of the ninj+/- mice are dead by 24 hours, it is imperative to determine whether the 90-minute timeframe data (in Fig 1A-G) is also representative of later time points. The question is whether ninj1+/- just delays the increases in prothrombin time, plasma TAT, and plasma cytokines. 

      Thank for the valuable question. The time point (90 min) was chosen based on our in vitro observation that flagellin-induced pyroptosis in BMDMs largely occurs within 60-90 min. 

      Because our focus on the primary effect of flagellin in vivo, potential secondary effects at later points may complicate the results and are hard to interpret. As the reviewer suggested, we have measured plasma PT, TAT at 6 hours post-flagellin challenge. The significant difference in PT sustained between Ninj1+/+ and Ninj1+/- (Fig A), suggesting coagulation proteins remained more depleted in Ninj1+/+ mice than in Ninj1+/- mice. However, plasma TAT levels were diminished to baseline level (refer to Fig 1B in main text) in both groups and showed no significant difference between groups (Fig B), which could be explained by the short half-life (less than 30 min) in the blood. Since flagellin challenge is a one-time hit, there might not a second episode of coagulation after the 90-minute time point, at least not triggered by flagellin, supported by the plasma TAT levels at 6 hours. We now comment on this limitation at the end of the main text.

      Based on our previous studies, plasma IL-1β and TNFα peaked at early time point and diminished over time, but plasma IL-6 levels maintained. As shown below, plasma IL-6 appeared higher in Ninj1+/+ compared with Ninj1+/-, but not statistically significant (partly because one missing sample, n = 4 not 5, in Ninj1+/+ group decreased the statistical power of detecting a difference).

      Author response image 1.

      Mice were injected with Fla (500 ng lFn-Fla plug3 ugPA). Blood was collected 6 hours after Fla injection. Prothrombin time (A), plasma TAT (B), and plasma IL-6 (C) were measured. Mann-Whitney test were performed.

      Recommendations for the authors:  

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      - Fig 1F: are there lower magnification images that capture the fibrin deposition? The IHC data seems at odds with the WB data in Fig. 1G where there is still significant fibrin detected in the heterozygous lungs and liver. Quantitating the Fig. 1G Western blot would also be helpful.

      IHC surveys a thin layer of tissue section while WB surveys a piece of tissue, therefore fibrin deposition may be missing from IHC and but found in WB. That is why we used two methods. Below we provide lower mag images of fibrin deposition (about 2 x 1.6 mm area).

      Author response image 2.

      - Fig1H - lethality study uses 5x dose of Fla used in earlier studies. In the lethality data where there is a delay in ninj1+/- mortality, are the parameters (prothrombin time, plasma TAT, and plasma cytokines) measured at 90 minutes different between WT and ninj+/- mice? This would be critical to confirm that this is not merely due to a delayed release of TF-containing MVs.

      We used 5x lower dose of Fla in coagulation study than lethality study because it’s not as easy to draw blood from septic mouse with higher dose of flagellin. We need to terminate the mice to collect blood for plasma measurement and therefore the parameters were not measured for mice in lethality study.

      - What is the effect of ninj+/- on E. coli-induced lethality in mice? How do these data compare to E. coli infection of GSDMD-/- mice? 

      We did not examine the effect of Ninj1+/- on E. coli-induced lethality. After the initial submission of our manuscript, we have focused on Ninj1 flox/flox mice instead of Ninj1+/- for NINJ1 deficiency. We are using induced global Ninj1 deficient mice for polymicrobial infectioninduced lethality in our new studies.

      - Fig 2 - in the E. coli model, the prothrombin time, plasma TAT, and plasma cytokines are measured 6 hours post-infection. How were these time points chosen? Did the authors measure prothrombin time, plasma TAT, and plasma cytokines at different time points?  

      The in vivo time point for flagellin and E.coli were chosen based on our in vitro observation of the timelines on BMDM pyroptosis induced by flagellin and bacteria. This disparity probably arises from distinct dynamics between purified protein and bacterial infections. Purified proteins can swiftly translocate into cells and take effect immediately after injection. Conversely, during bacterial infection, macrophages engulf and digest the bacteria to expose their antigens. Subsequently, these antigens initiate further effects, a process that takes some time to unfold. 

      Our focus is on the primary effect of flagellin in vivo, potential secondary effects at later points may complicate the results and are hard to interpret. As the reviewer suggested, we have measured plasma PT, TAT at 6 hours post-flagellin challenge. The significant difference in PT sustained between Ninj1+/+ and Ninj1+/- (Fig A), suggesting coagulation proteins remained more depleted in Ninj1+/+ mice than in Ninj1+/- mice. However, plasma TAT levels were diminished to baseline level (refer to Fig 1B in main text) in both groups and showed no significant difference between groups (Fig B), which could be explained by the short half-life (less than 30 min) in the blood. Since flagellin challenge is a one-time hit, there might not a second episode of coagulation after the 90-minute time point, at least not triggered by flagellin, supported by the plasma TAT levels at 6 hours. We now comment on this limitation at the end of the main text.

      Based on our previous studies, plasma IL-1β and TNFα peaked at early time point and diminished over time, but plasma IL-6 levels maintained. As shown below, plasma IL-6 appeared higher in Ninj1+/+ compared with Ninj1+/-, but not statistically significant (partly because one missing sample, n = 4 not 5, in Ninj1+/+ group decreased the statistical power of detecting a difference).

      - Fig 3 - the sequence of figure panels listed in the legend needs to be corrected. Fig 3A requires quantitation of NINJ1 levels compared to beta-actin. Fig 3C - needs a control for equal MV loading. 

      Thanks for the recommendations. The figure sequence has been corrected. There remain no common markers or loading controls for MV, so we use equal plasma volume for loading control.

      Additional comments: 

      (1) In Fig 3A, the size of NINJ1 appears to be increased in the NINJ+/- group.  

      This discrepancy is likely attributed to a technical issue when running the protein gel and protein transfer, which makes the image tilt to one side.

      (2) Describe the method of BMDM isolation.

      Thanks for the recommendations. We now include the method of BMDM isolation. In brief, mouse femur and tibia from one leg are harvested and rinsed in ice-cold PBS, followed by a brief rinse in 70% ethanol for 10-15 seconds. Both ends of the bones are then cut open, and the bone marrow is flushed out using a 10 ml syringe with a 26-gauge needle. The marrow is passed through a 19-gauge needle once to disperse the cells. After filtering through a 70-μm cell strainer, the cells are collected by centrifugation at 250 g for 5 minutes at 4 °C, then suspended in two 150 mm petri dish, each containing 25 ml of L-cell conditioned medium (RPMI-1640 supplemented with 10% FBS, 2mM L-Glutamine, 10mM HEPES, 15% LCM, and penicillin/streptomycin). After 3 days, 15 mL of LCM medium is added to each dish cells. The cells typically reach full confluency by days 5-7.

      (3) According to this method, BMDMs are seeded without any M-CSF or L929-cell conditioned medium. How many macrophages survive under this condition? 

      BMDMs are cultured and differentiated in medium supplemented with 15% L929-cell conditioned medium. For the experiment, the cells were seeded in Opti-MEM medium (Thermo Fisher Scientific, Cat# 51985034) without M-CSF or L929-cell conditioned medium. BMDMs can survive under this condition, as evidenced by low LDH and high ATP measurement (Fig S5).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      - There is significant information missing in the methods and this makes it unclear how to interpret how some of the experiments were performed. For example, there is no detailed description or references in the methods on how the in vivo experiments were performed. The methods section needs significantly more details so that any reader is able to follow the protocols in this manuscript. References to previous work should also be included as needed.

      Thanks for the recommendations. We had some of the details in the figure legend. We now add details in the methods for better interpretation of our data. 

      - Line numbers in the manuscript would be helpful when resubmitting the manuscript so that the reviewer can easily point to the main text when making comments. 

      Thanks for the recommendations. We now add line numbers in the manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      The chromophore molecule of animal and microbial rhodopsins is retinal which forms a Schiff base linkage with a lysine in the 7-th transmembrane helix. In most cases, the chromophore is positively charged by protonation of the Schiff base, which is stabilized by a negatively charged counterion. In animal opsins, three sites have been experimentally identified, Glu94 in helix 2, Glu113 in helix 3, and Glu181 in extracellular loop 2, where a glutamate acts as the counterion by deprotonation. In this paper, Sakai et al. investigated molecular properties of anthozoan-specific opsin II (ASO-II opsins), as they lack these glutamates. They found an alternative candidate, Glu292 in helix 7, from the sequences. Interestingly, the experimental data suggested that Glu292 is not the direct counterion in ASO-II opsins. Instead, they found that ASO-II opsins employ a chloride ion as the counterion. In the case of microbial rhodopsin, a chloride ion serves as the counterion of light-driven chloride pumps. This paper reports the first observation of a chloride ion as the counterion in animal rhodopsin. Theoretical calculation using a QM/MM method supports their experimental data. The authors also revealed the role of Glu292, which serves as the counterion in the photoproduct, and is involved in G protein activation.

      The conclusions of this paper are well supported by data, while the following aspects should be considered for the improvement of the manuscript.

      We thank the reviewer for carefully reading the manuscript and providing important suggestions. Below, we address the specific comments.

      (1) Information on sequence alignment only appears in Figure S2, not in the main figures. Figure S2 is too complicated by so many opsins and residue positions. It will be difficult for general readers to follow the manuscript because of such an organization. I recommend the authors show key residues in Figure 1 by picking up from Figure S2.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. As suggested, we have selected key residues (potential counterion sites) from Fig. S2 and show them now as Fig. 1B in the revised manuscript. Fig. S2 has also been simplified by showing only the most important residues.

      (2) Halide size dependence. The authors observed spectral red-shift for larger halides. Their observation is fully coincident with the chromophore molecule in solution (Blatz et al. Biochemistry 1972), though the isomeric states are different (11-cis vs all-trans). This suggests that a halide ion is the hydrogen-bonding acceptor of the Schiff base N-H group in solution and ASO-II opsins. A halide ion is not the hydrogen-bonding acceptor in the structure of halorhodopsin, whose halide size dependence is not clearly correlated with absorption maxima (Scharf and Engelhard, Biochemistry 1994). These results support their model structure (Figure 4), and help QM/MM calculations.

      We appreciate the comment, which provides a deeper insight into our results and reinforces our conclusions. We have revised the discussion of the effect of halide size on the λ<sub>max</sub> shift to cite the prior work mentioned by the reviewer.

      (3) QM/MM calculations. According to Materials and Methods, the authors added water molecules to the structure and performed their calculations. However, Figure 4 does not include such water molecules, and no information was given in the manuscript. In addition, no information was given for the chloride binding site (contact residues) in Figure 4. More detailed information should be shown with additional figures in Figure SX.

      We thank the reviewer for making us realize that Fig. 4 was oversimplified.

      We have added following text in the “Structural modelling and QM/MM calculations of the dark state of Antho2a” section:

      Lines 220 – 223

      “The chloride ion is also coordinated by two water molecules and the backbone of Cys187 which is part of a conserved disulfide bridge (Fig. S2). The retinylidene Schiff base region also includes polar (Ser186, Tyr91) and non-polar (Ala94, Leu113) residues (Fig. 4).”

      We have updated Fig. 4 and its legend to show a more detailed environment of the protonated Schiff base and the chloride ion, including water molecules and other nearby residues.

      (4) Figure 5 clearly shows much lower activity of E292A than that of WT, whose expression levels are unclear. How did the authors normalize (or not normalize) expression levels in this experiment?

      We thank the reviewer for this valuable comment. In the previous version of the manuscript, we did not normalize the activity based on expression levels. We have considered this in the amended version.

      First, we evaluated the expression levels of wild type and E292A Antho2a by comparing absorbances at λ<sub>max</sub> (± 5 nm) of these pigments that were expressed and purified under the same conditions. Assuming that their molar absorption coefficients at the absorption maximum wavelengths are approximately the same, this can allow us to roughly compare their expression levels. The relative expression of the E292A mutant compared to the wild type (set as 1) was 0.81 at pH 6.5 and 140 mM NaCl, in which 94.0% (for E292A) and 99.8% (for wild type) of the Schiff base is protonated (Fig. 3A and B). As we conducted the live cell Ca<sup>2+</sup> assay in media at pH 7.0, we estimated the proportion of the protonated states of wild type and E292A mutant at same pH. The relative amounts of the protonated states to the wild type at pH 6.5 (set as 1) were estimated to be 0.99 for wild type and 0.84 for E292A. Together, the protonated pigment of the E292A mutant was calculated to be about 73% of that of the wild type at pH 7.0. From Fig. 5, the amplitude of Ca<sup>2+</sup> response of the E292A mutant was 12.1% of the wild type, showing that even after normalizing the expression levels, the Ca<sup>2+</sup> response amplitude was lower in the E292A mutant than in the wild type. This leads to our conclusion that the E292A mutation can also influence the G protein activation efficiency.

      We have added Fig. S11 showing the comparison of expression levels between the wild type and E292A of Antho2a (Fig. S11A) and maximum Ca<sup>2+</sup> responses after normalizing the expression levels (Fig. S11B).

      We have also revised the discussion section as follows:

      Lines 324 – 335

      “The relative expression level of the E292A mutant of Antho2a was approximately 0.81 of the wild type (set as 1), as determined by comparing absorbances at λ<sub>max</sub> for both pigments expressed and purified under identical conditions (Fig. S11A). Additionally, the fraction of protonated pigment relative to the wild type (set as 1 at pH 6.5) was estimated to be 0.94 for the E292A mutant at pH 6.5, and 0.99 and 0.84 for the wild type and the E292A mutant at pH 7.0, respectively (Fig. 3A and B). Since pH 7.0 corresponds to the conditions used in the live cell Ca<sup>2+</sup> assays, the effective amount of protonated pigment for the E292A mutant was approximately 73% of the wild type. Nevertheless, even after normalization for these differences, the Ca<sup>2+</sup> response amplitude of the E292A mutant remained significantly lower (~ 17% of wild type, compared to the observed 12% prior to normalization; Fig. 5 and Fig. S11B). These observations suggest that Glu292 serves not only as a counterion in the photoproduct but also plays an allosteric role in influencing G protein activation.”

      (5) The authors propose the counterion switching from a chloride ion to E292 upon light activation. A schematic drawing on the chromophore, a chloride ion, and E292 (and possible surroundings) in Antho2a and the photoproduct will aid readers' understanding.

      We thank the reviewer for this excellent suggestion. We have prepared a new figure with a schematic drawing of the environment of the protonated Schiff base depicting the counterion switch in Fig. S10.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This work reports the discovery of a new rhodopsin from reef-building corals that is characterized experimentally, spectroscopically, and by simulation. This rhodopsin lacks a carboxylate-based counterion, which is typical for this family of proteins. Instead, the authors find that a chloride ion stabilizes the protonated Schiff base and thus serves as a counterion.

      Strengths:

      This work focuses on the rhodopsin Antho2a, which absorbs in the visible spectrum with a maximum at 503 nm. Spectroscopic studies under different pH conditions, including the mutant E292A and different chloride concentrations, indicate that chloride acts as a counterion in the dark. In the photoproduct, however, the counterion is identified as E292.

      These results lead to a computational model of Antho2a in which the chloride is modeled in addition to the Schiff base. This model is improved using the hybrid QM/MM simulations. As a validation, the absorption maximum is calculated using the QM/MM approach for the protonated and deprotonated E292 residue as well as the E292A mutant. The results are in good agreement with the experiment. However, there is a larger deviation for ADC(2) than for sTD-DFT. Nevertheless, the trend is robust since the wt and E292A mutant models have similar excitation energies. The calculations are performed at a high level of theory that includes a large QM region.

      Weaknesses:

      I have a couple of questions about this study:

      We thank the reviewer for providing critical comments, particularly on the QM/MM calculations. We have carefully considered all comments and have addressed them as detailed below. Corresponding revisions have been made to the manuscript.

      (1) I find it suspicious that the absorption maximum is so close to that of rhodopsin when the counterion is very different. Is it possible that the chloride creates an environment for the deprotonated E292, which is the actual counterion?

      We think it is unlikely that the chloride ion merely facilitates deprotonation of Glu292 in such a way that it acts as the counterion of the dark state Antho2a. This conclusion is based on two results from our study. (1) λ<sub>max</sub> of wild type Antho2a in the dark is positively correlated with the ionic radius of the halide in the solution; the λ<sub>max</sub> is red shifted in the order Cl- < Br- < I- (Fig. 2E and F in the revised manuscript). This tendency is observed when the halide anion acts as a counterion of the protonated Schiff base (Blatz et al. Biochemistry 11: 848–855, 1972). (2) The QM/MM models of the dark state of Antho2a show that the calculated λ<sub>max</sub> of Antho2a with a protonated (neutral) Glu292 is much closer to the experimentally observed λ<sub>max</sub> than with a deprotonated (negatively charged) Glu292 (Fig. 4), suggesting that the Glu292 is likely to be protonated even in the presence of chloride ion. Therefore, we conclude that a solute anion, and not Glu292, acts as the counterion of the protonated Schiff base in the dark state of Antho2a. We have discussed this in the revised manuscript as follows:

      Lines 274 – 291

      “We found that the type of halide anions in the solution has a small but noticeable effect on the λ<sub>max</sub> values of the dark state of Antho2a. This is consistent with the effect observed in a counterion-less mutant of bovine rhodopsin, in which halide ions serve as surrogate counterions (Nathans, 1990; Sakmar et al., 1991). Similarly, our results align with earlier observations that the λ<sub>max</sub> of a retinylidene Schiff base in solution increases with the ionic radius of halides acting as hydrogen bond acceptors (i.e., I− > Br− > Cl−) (Blatz et al., 1972). In contrast, the λ<sub>max</sub> of halorhodopsin from Natronobacterium pharaonic does not clearly correlate with halide ionic radius (Scharf and Engelhard, 1994), as the halide ion in this case is not a hydrogen-bonding acceptor of the protonated Schiff base (Kouyama et al., 2010; Mizuno et al., 2018). Altogether, these findings support our hypothesis that in Antho2a, a solute halide ion forms a hydrogen bond with the Schiff base, thereby serving as the counterion in the dark state. Moreover, QM/MM calculations for the dark state of Antho2a suggest that Glu292 is protonated and neutral, further supporting the hypothesis that Glu292 does not serve as the counterion in the dark state. However, unlike dark state, Cl− has little to no effect on the visible light absorption of the photoproduct (Fig. S5). Therefore, we conclude that Cl− and Glu292, respectively, act as counterions for the protonated Schiff base of the dark state and photoproduct of Antho2a. This represents a unique example of counterion switching from exogeneous anion to a specific amino acid residue upon light irradiation (Fig. S10).”

      (2) The computational protocol states that water molecules have been added to the predicted protein structure. Are there water molecules next to the Schiff base, E292, and Cl-? If so, where are they located in the QM region?

      We have updated Fig. 4 to show amino acids and water molecules near the Schiff base, E292, and the chloride ion. These include Ser186, Tyr91, Ala94, Leu113, Cys187, and two water molecules coordinating the chloride ion. We have added following text in the “Structural modelling and QM/MM calculations of the dark state of Antho2a” section of the revised manuscript.

      Lines 220 – 223

      “The chloride ion is also coordinated by two water molecules and the backbone of Cys187 which is part of a conserved disulfide bridge (Fig. S2). The retinylidene Schiff base region also includes polar (Ser186, Tyr91) and non-polar (Ala94, Leu113) residues (Fig. 4).”

      Water molecules, which have been modelled by homology to other GPCR structures, were not included in the QM region. In the revised version of the manuscript, we clarify this point in the “Computational modelling and QM/MM calculations” section as follows.

      Lines 515 – 517

      “The retinal-binding pocket also contains predicted water molecules (modelled based on homologous GPCR structures) close to the Schiff base and the chloride ion which were not included in the QM region.”

      (3) If the E292 residue is the counterion in the photoproduct state, I would expect the retinal Schiff base to rotate toward this side chain upon isomerization. Can this be modeled based on the recent XFEL results on rhodopsin?

      The recent XFEL studies of rhodopsin reveal that at very early stages (1 ps after photoactivation), structural changes in retinal are limited primarily to the isomerization around the C11=C12 bond of the polyene chain, without significant rotation of the Schiff base.

      Although modelling of a later active state with planar retinal and a rotated Schiff base is feasible—e.g., guided by high-resolution structures of bovine rhodopsin’s Meta II state such as PDB ID: 3PQR, see Author response image 1 below—active states of GPCRs typically exhibit substantial conformational flexibility and heterogeneity, making the generation of precise structural models suitable for accurate QM/MM calculations challenging. Despite these uncertainties, this preliminary modelling does indicate that upon isomerization to the all-trans configuration, the retinal Schiff base would rotate towards E292, supporting our hypothesis that E292 serves as the counterion in the Antho2a photoproduct. This is now shown better in the revised Fig. S10.

      Author response image 1.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The paper by Saito et al. studies the properties of anthozoan-specific opsins (ASO-II) from organisms found in reef-building coral. Their goal was to test if ASO-II opsins can absorb visible light, and if so, what the key factors involved are.

      The most exciting aspect of this work is their discovery that ASO-II opsins do not have a counterion residue (Asp or Glu) located at any of the previously known sites found in other animal opsins.

      This is very surprising. Opsins are only able to absorb visible (long wavelength light) if the retinal Schiff base is protonated, and the latter requires (as the name implies) a "counter ion". However, the authors clearly show that some ASO-II opsins do absorb visible light.

      To address this conundrum, they tested if the counterion could be provided by exogenous chloride ions (Cl-). Their results find compelling evidence supporting this idea, and their studies of ASO-II mutant E292A suggest E292 also plays a role in G protein activation and is a counterion for a protonated Schiff base in the light-activated form.

      Strengths:

      Overall, the methods are well-described and carefully executed, and the results are very compelling.

      Their analysis of seven ASO-II opsin sequences undoubtedly shows they all lack a Glu or Asp residue at "normal" (previously established) counter-ion sites in mammalian opsins (typically found at positions 94, 113, or 181). The experimental studies clearly demonstrate the necessity of Cl- for visible light absorbance, as do their studies of the effect of altering the pH.

      Importantly, the authors also carried out careful QM/MM computational analysis (and corresponding calculation of the expected absorbance effects), thus providing compelling support for the Cl- acting directly as a counterion to the protonated retinal Schiff base, and thus limiting the possibility that the Cl- is simply altering the absorbance of ASO-II opsins through some indirect effect on the protein.

      Altogether, the authors achieved their aims, and the results support their conclusions. The manuscript is carefully written, and refreshingly, the results and conclusions are not overstated.

      This study is impactful for several reasons. There is increasing interest in optogenetic tools, especially those that leverage G protein-coupled receptor systems. Thus, the authors' demonstration that ASO-II opsins could be useful for such studies is of interest.

      Moreover, the finding that visible light absorbance by an opsin does not absolutely require a negatively charged amino acid to be placed at one of the expected sites (94, 113, or 181) typically found in animal opsins is very intriguing and will help future protein engineering efforts. The argument that the Cl- counterion system they discover here might have been a preliminary step in the evolution of amino acid based counterions used in animal opsins is also interesting.

      Finally, given the ongoing degradation of coral reefs worldwide, the focus on these curious opsins is very timely, as is the authors' proposal that the lower Schiff base pKa they discovered here for ASO-II opsins may cause them to change their spectral sensitivity and G protein activation due to changes in their environmental pH.

      We thank the reviewer for the comprehensive summary of the manuscript and for finding it well-described and impactful.

      Recommendations for the Authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) p. 5, l. 102: The authors obtained three absorption spectra out of seven. Did the authors examine the reasons for no absorption spectra for the remaining four proteins?

      We have not identified the reasons for the absence of detectable absorption spectra for the remaining four opsins. We speculate that this could result from poor retinal binding under detergent-solubilized conditions, but we have not directly tested this possibility.

      (2) p. 7, l. 141: The pH value is 7.5 in the text and 7.4 in Figure S4B.

      We thank the reviewer for finding this mistake. The correct value is 7.4 and we have revised the text accordingly.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The structures and the simulations should be made available to the reader by providing them in a repository.

      We have deposited the Antho2a models in Zenodo (https://zenodo.org/; an open-access repository for research data). We have added the following description in the “Data and materials availability” section of the revised manuscript.

      Lines 559 – 560

      “The structural models of wild type Antho2a with a neutral or charged Glu292 and the Antho2a E292A mutant are available in Zenodo (10.5281/zenodo.15064942).”

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) In the homology models for the ASO-II opsins, are there any other possible residues that could act as counter-ion residues outside of the "normal" positions at 94, 113, or 181?

      We have updated Fig. 4 to show all residues near the retinylidene Schiff base region, which include Cl−, Glu292, Ser186, Tyr91, Ala94, Leu113, Cys187, and two water molecules.

      Apart from Cl− and Glu292, the homology models of the ASO-II opsins do not reveal any other candidate as the counterion of Schiff base. This is also suggested by the sequence alignment between opsins of the ASO-II group and other animal opsins in Fig. S2, where we show amino acid residues near the Schiff base (in addition to key motifs important for G protein activation).

      (2) It is mentioned that the ASO-II opsins do not appear to be bistable opsins in detergents - do these opsins show any ability to photo-switch back and forth when in cellular membranes?

      We have not directly tested whether Antho2a exhibits photo-switching in cellular membranes due to technical limitations associated with high light scattering in spectroscopic measurements. Instead, we recorded absorption spectra from crude extracts of detergent-solubilized cell membranes expressing Antho2a wild type (without purification) in the dark and after sequential light irradiation (Fig. S3C). This approach, which retains cellular lipids, can better preserve the photochemical properties of opsins, such as thermal stability and photoreactivity of their photoproducts, similar to intact cellular membranes. The first irradiation with green light (500 nm) led to a decrease in absorbance around the 550 nm region and an increase around the 450 nm region, indicating the formation of a photoproduct, consistent with observations using purified Antho2a.

      However, subsequent irradiation with violet light (420 nm) did not reverse these spectral changes but resulted in only a slight decrease in absorbance around 400 nm. Re-exposure to green light produced no further spectral changes aside from baseline distortions. These findings suggest that the Antho2a photoproduct has limited ability to revert to its original dark state under these conditions. Nevertheless, because detergent solubilization may influence these observations, further studies in intact cellular membranes using live-cell assay will be required to conclusively assess bistability or photo-switching properties.

      (3) The idea that E292 acts as a counterion for the protonated active state is intriguing - do the authors think the retinal decay process after light activation occurs with hydrolysis of the non-protonated form with subsequent retinal release?

      We thank the reviewer for raising this important question. We first examined whether the increased UV absorbance observed after incubating the photoproduct for 20 hours in the dark (Fig. S3D, E, violet curves) originated from free retinal released from the opsin pigment. Acid denaturation (performed at pH 1.9) of this photoproduct resulted in a main product absorbing around 400 nm (Fig. S3G). Typically, when retinal binds opsin via the Schiff base (whether protonated or deprotonated), acid denaturation traps the retinal chromophore as a protonated Schiff base, yielding an absorption spectrum with a λ<sub>max</sub> at approximately 440 nm, as observed in the dark state of Antho2a (Fig. S3F). Our results thus indicate that the UV absorbance in the photoproduct did not result from a deprotonated Schiff base but rather from retinal released during incubation. We have not directly tested whether the protonated or deprotonated form is more prone to retinal release. However, the decay of visible absorbance (associated with the protonated photoproduct) occurred more rapidly under alkaline conditions (pH 8.0), which generally favors deprotonation of the Schiff base (Fig. S3H). Thus, it is possible that the deprotonated photoproduct releases retinal more rapidly than the protonated form, but further studies are necessary to confirm this hypothesis.

      To answer the comments (2) and (3) by the reviewer, we have added new panels (C and F–H) to Fig. S3.

      We have revised the Results section as follows:

      Lines 136 – 141

      “The photoproduct remained stable for at least 5 minutes (Fig. S3A, curves 2 and 3) but did not revert to the original dark state upon subsequent irradiation (Fig. S3A and C). Instead, it underwent gradual decay accompanied by retinal release over time (Fig. S3D–G). These findings indicate that purified Antho2a is neither strictly bleach resistant nor bistable (see also Fig. S3 legend). We also observed that the protonated photoproduct decayed more rapidly at pH 8.0 (Fig. S3H) than at pH 6.5 (Fig. 3A, D, E).”

      Text:

      (4) Page 3, line 38. Consider defining eumetazoan (for lay readers).

      As suggested, we have defined eumetazoans and revised the sentence as follows:

      Lines 38 – 40

      “Opsins are present in the genomes of all eumetazoans (i.e., all animal lineages except sponges), and based on their phylogenetic relationships, they can be classified into eight groups…”

      (5) Page 3, line 42. "But, furthermore, ..." should be changed to either word alone.

      Revised as suggested.

      (6) Page 18, line 447. The HPLC method is well-described and helpful. If possible, please add a Reference, or indicate if this is a new variation of the method.

      This is a well-established method for analyzing the composition of retinal isomers bound to different states of rhodopsin pigments. We have now cited a reference describing the methodology (Terakita et al. Vision Res. 6: 639–652, 1989).

      (7) Page 11, line 267. "..type of halide anions in the solution affected the λ<sub>max</sub> values of the dark state of".

      Since the changes are not large (but clearly occur), consider changing this sentence to "..type of halide anions in the solution has a small but visible effect on the λ<sub>max</sub> values of the dark state ..."

      We have revised this sentence as suggested.

      Figures:

      (9) Consider combining Figure FS6 with Figure 2 (effect of anions on visible absorbance).

      As suggested, the previous Fig. S6 has been included in the main text as Fig. 2E and F in the revised manuscript.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This study presents a valuable finding for the treatment of PCCs by sequencing 16 tumor specimens from five patients with pheochromocytomas by single-cell transcriptomics and proposing a new molecular classification criterion based on the sequencing results and characterization of tumor microenvironmental features. The evidence supporting the claims of the authors is solid, although the inclusion of more patient samples would strengthen the study's conclusions. The work will be of interest to clinicians or medical biologists working on rare pheochromocytomas (PCCs).

      Firstly, we sincerely appreciate the positive feedback from the editor and extend our gratitude to the three reviewers for their meticulous review and valuable comments. Our detailed responses to each recommendation are outlined below.

      Response to reviewers’ recommendations

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for The Authors):

      1) Transcriptomal clonal dynamics of different PCCs is well written. However for conclusion sample size needs to be more.

      Acknowledging the rarity of PCCs with an incidence of approximately 0.2 to 0.6 cases per 100,000 person-years (Farrugia & Charalampopoulos, 2019; Neumann et al, 2019), our study recognizes the limitation in sample size, as discussed in the limitations section (Page 22). In response to this concern, we are committed to undertaking further research with an expanded sample size to bolster the robustness of our conclusions, seeking a more comprehensive understanding of tumor microenvironment characterization and molecular classification in PCCs. We appreciate the valuable guidance provided by the reviewer.

      2) Clinical, biochemistry data of 5 cases can be analysed. Any findings in different categories as per postulated classification can be noted for further studies. Example: epinephrine levels

      We have now included the clinical information of 5 PCC patients, encompassing signs and symptoms, the tumor size, and laboratory test results in the revised manuscript as Supplemental Table S3 (Page 11-12). Notably, our analysis revealed that the kinase-type PCC patient (P4) exhibited higher blood pressures and plasma levels of catecholamine metabolites (3-methoxytyramine and normetanephrine) compared to metabolism-type PCC patients (P1-P3, and P5). This observation aligns with the elevated expression of phenylethanolamine N-methyltransferase (PNMT), an enzyme involved in the biosynthesis of catecholamine and linked to hypertension, in P4, as identified in the scRNA-seq data (Figure 4B and 4D) (Kennedy et al, 1993; Konosu-Fukaya et al, 2018; Nguyen et al, 2015). As suggested, we plan to conduct further research to explore the correlation of our molecular classification with plasma levels of catecholamine metabolites, and the relevant points have been discussed in the revision (Page 20).

      We would like to take this chance to again thank the reviewer for the careful review and very helpful guidance about how to improve our study.

      References for Reviewer #1:

      Farrugia FA, Charalampopoulos A (2019) Pheochromocytoma. Endocrine regulations 53: 191-212 Neumann HPH, Young WF, Jr., Eng C (2019) Pheochromocytoma and Paraganglioma. The New England journal of medicine 381: 552-565

      Kennedy B, Elayan H, Ziegler MG (1993) Glucocorticoid hypertension and nonadrenal phenylethanolamine N-methyltransferase. Hypertension (Dallas, Tex : 1979) 21: 415419

      Konosu-Fukaya S, Omata K, Tezuka Y, Ono Y, Aoyama Y, Satoh F, Fujishima F, Sasano H, Nakamura Y (2018) Catecholamine-Synthesizing Enzymes in Pheochromocytoma and Extraadrenal Paraganglioma. Endocrine pathology 29: 302309

      Nguyen P, Khurana S, Peltsch H, Grandbois J, Eibl J, Crispo J, Ansell D, Tai TC (2015) Prenatal glucocorticoid exposure programs adrenal PNMT expression and adult hypertension. The Journal of endocrinology 227: 117-127

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for The Authors):

      1) Please revise all references to "malignant potential", "malignant behavior", etc. throughout the article, including the abstract and introduction, and replace them with the word "metastasis" as appropriate. Since all PCCs are malignant non-epithelial neuroendocrine neoplasms originating from the paraganglia, which are themselves malignant tumors, it is unacceptable to describe them as "malignant potential" or "malignant potential". Please review the 2022 WHO/IARC classification and description of pheochromocytoma/paraganglioma (reference: Mete O, Asa SL, Gill AJ, Kimura N, de Krijger RR, Tischler A. Overview of the 2022 WHO Classification of Paragangliomas and Pheochromocytomas. Endocr Pathol. 2022;33(1):90-114. doi:10.1007/s12022-022-09704-6).

      As suggested, we have replaced all occurrences of “malignant potential” or “malignant behavior” with “metastasis” throughout the revised manuscript. We have also included a citation to the 2022 WHO/IARC classification for further clarity.

      • Similarly, it is not advisable to use the PASS score to predict "malignant" PCC; this type of scoring system evaluates the "metastasis risk" or the "metastasis potential" of PCC.

      We appreciate the reviewer for this insight and have revised our statements accordingly.

      • Also, "MALIGNANT CHAFFIN CELLS" needs to be modified; in fact, it is the "tumor cell of PCC" that the authors are trying to express.

      As suggested, we have amended the term “malignant chromaffin cells” to “PCC cells” in the revised manuscript (Page 9-10).

      2) How does the PASS score specifically relate to intra-tumor heterogeneity as reflected by scRNA-seq? In fact, the PASS score evaluates the histological or pathological invasiveness of PCC, and different sections of the same tumor tissue may have different histological manifestations, which may affect the score; however, scRNA-seq analyzes the cellular composition of the tumor, which is not the same as the information reflected by the PASS score. Both represent different levels and dimensions of intra-tumor heterogeneity and should be analyzed together. Please specifically list, one by one, the proportion of each item score of the PASS system and cell type of scRNA-seq for each sample and the results of the comparisons with each other to better present the conclusions.

      As suggested, we have included the proportion of each item score from the PASS system in the revised manuscript as Supplemental Table S2 (Page 8). Integrating this data with the cell type composition of each sample from Figure 2B, our analysis suggests that intra-tumor heterogeneity, as assessed by the PASS system, is more extensive compared to scRNA-seq. We concur with the reviewer’s judgement that scRNA-seq analysis and PASS score represent different levels and dimensions of intratumor heterogeneity, and we have adjusted our claim throughout the revised manuscript accordingly (Page 8, 9, and 19).

      3) Where is the specific mutation site of the VHL gene in patient 5? Please advise.

      The VHL gene mutation site, c.499C>T (missense mutation), in patient 5 was identified through whole exome sequencing (WES) analysis. We have now added the information to Supplemental Table S1 in the revised manuscript (Page 6).

      4) Please revise Supplementary Figure 1, the scale should not appear in the picture of the staining result of P5.

      As suggested, we have adjusted the position of the scale bar.

      Author response image 1.

      Hematoxylin-eosin staining and immunohistochemistry staining of CGA marker in formalin-fixed paraffin-embedded PCC tissue sections matched to scRNA-seq specimens. Scale bar, 100 μm.

      5) What were the clinical presentation and biochemical findings in the five patients?

      The information regarding tumor sizes, signs and symptoms, and plasma levels of catecholamine metabolites [3-methoxytyramine (3-MT), metanephrine (MN), and normetanephrine (NMN)] has been added to the revised manuscript as Supplemental Table S3 (Page 11-12).

      • Were there any preoperative symptoms of hypertension?

      With the exception of P2, preoperative symptoms of hypertension were observed in all PCC patients. The information has been added to the revised manuscript as Supplemental Table S3 (Page 11-12).

      • What was the size and catecholamine secretion phenotype of each tumor? What was the relationship between these data and the scRNA-seq results?

      The secretion phenotype showed that the kinase-type PCC patient (P4) exhibited higher plasma levels of catecholamine metabolites (3-methoxytyramine and normetanephrine) compared to metabolism-type PCC patients (P1-P3, and P5). This observation aligns with the elevated expression of phenylethanolamine Nmethyltransferase (PNMT), an enzyme involved in the biosynthesis of catecholamine and linked to hypertension, in P4, as identified in the scRNA-seq data (Figure 4B and 4D) (Kennedy et al, 1993; Konosu-Fukaya et al, 2018; Nguyen et al, 2015). Meanwhile, we have not observed the correlation between tumor sizes and molecular classification. We have now included tumor sizes and laboratory test results of 5 PCC patients in the revised manuscript as Supplemental Table S3 (Page 11-12), and the relevant points have been discussed in the revision (Page 20).

      6) Please revise Figure 1A, the meaning shown in the figure appears to dissociate the tissues of the patient's normal adrenal glands, which can be misleading.

      We appreciate the reviewer for raising this concern. The schematic in Figure 1A has been revised accordingly.

      Author response image 2.

      (1A) Schematic of the experimental pipeline. 11 tumor specimens and 5 adjacent normal adrenal medullary specimens were isolated from 5 PCC patients, dissociated into single-cell suspensions, and analyzed using 10x Genomics Chromium droplet scRNA-seq.

      • Please revise the figure note for Figure 1B, where the symbol (B) appears twice.

      As suggested, we have revised the figure legends for Figure 1B and 1C (Page 42).

      7) Please indicate in the figure legends and text what exactly is meant by "adjacent specimens"? medulla? cortex? normal tissue? I believe the authors mean adjacent normal adrenal medullary tissue, please check the article.

      As suggested, we have revised the term “adjacent specimens” to “adjacent normal adrenal medullary tissues” throughout the revised manuscript.

      8) Please review the pathologic diagnostic criteria of this study in light of the 2022 WHO/IARC guidelines for pathologic diagnosis: "For the pathological diagnosis, the inclusion criteria were neuroendocrine neoplasm originating from the adrenal medulla and retroperitoneal origin, i.e. pheochromocytoma and paraganglioma, with consistent morphologic and immunohistochemical confirmation in relevant cases and positivity for chromogranin A and synaptophysin. The exclusion criteria were adrenocortical neoplasm and metastatic tumors." It is not rigorous enough to diagnose a tumor as PCC based on positive CgA immunohistochemical staining results alone.

      We have revised the statements about pathologic diagnostic criteria in accordance with the suggestion and have cited the reference (Page 6).

      We would like to express our gratitude to the reviewer for the thorough review and invaluable guidance provided to enhance the quality of our study.

      References for Reviewer #2:

      Kennedy B, Elayan H, Ziegler MG (1993) Glucocorticoid hypertension and nonadrenal phenylethanolamine N-methyltransferase. Hypertension (Dallas, Tex: 1979) 21: 415419

      Konosu-Fukaya S, Omata K, Tezuka Y, Ono Y, Aoyama Y, Satoh F, Fujishima F, Sasano H, Nakamura Y (2018) Catecholamine-Synthesizing Enzymes in Pheochromocytoma and Extraadrenal Paraganglioma. Endocrine pathology 29: 302309

      Nguyen P, Khurana S, Peltsch H, Grandbois J, Eibl J, Crispo J, Ansell D, Tai TC (2015) Prenatal glucocorticoid exposure programs adrenal PNMT expression and adult hypertension. The Journal of endocrinology 227: 117-127

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I have several concerns and suggestions, which if addressed would improve the manuscript.

      1) The statements of “plasmas” in the manuscript and figures are confusing, which should be revised as “plasma cells”.

      As suggested, we have revised the terminology from “plasmas” to “plasma cells” throughout the revised manuscript and figures.

      2) The marker genes used for defining plasma cells (IGHG1 and IGLC2) showed low expressing percentage in Figure 1D. Please consider providing other genes as the marker of plasma cells.

      As suggested, we performed additional analysis to pinpoint marker genes for accurate definition of plasma cells. Applying stricter statistical criteria (cut-off pvalue < 0.05, log2 fold change ≥ 1.5, and expressing percentage ≥ 0.6), we identified XBP1 (a transcription factor playing key roles in the final stages of plasma cell development) and IGKC (a type of light-chain immunoglobulins) (Todd et al, 2009; Poulsen et al, 2002) as top significant differentially expressed genes (DEGs) suitable for defining plasma cells. These data are now presented as Figure 1D in the revised manuscript (Page 7).

      Author response image 3.

      (1D) Dot plot of representative marker genes for each cell type. The color scale represents the average marker gene expression level; dot size represents the percentage of cells expressing a given marker gene.

      3) The statement “Our clustering and cell type annotation analysis identified diverse adrenal cells, stromal cells, and immune cells within the PCC microenvironment” seems not be exhibited in Figure 1, so the clustering result of adrenal cells, stromal cells, and immune cells need to be added.

      As suggested, we performed clustering analysis for adrenal cells, stromal cells, and immune cells (including lymphocytes and myeloid cells), and visualized by the Uniform Manifold Approximation and Projection (UMAP) plot. These data have been added to the revised manuscript as Supplemental Figure S3 (Page 8).

      Author response image 4.

      Integration Analysis across 5 PCC Patients Revealing the Cell Type Composition of the PCC Microenvironment. UMAP plot depicting the distribution of adrenal cells, stromal cells, and immune cells (including lymphocytes and myeloid cells) within the PCC microenvironment.

      4) Given the classification of “metabolism-type PCCs” and “kinase-type PCCs” have not been presented in Figure 2D, the statement “Combined with our findings of a higher proportion of neutrophils and monocyts/macrophages in metabolism-type as compared with kinase-type” in Result 6 should be supported by using additional data.

      As suggested, we performed additional analysis to evaluate the proportion of neutrophils and monocytes/macrophages in metabolism-type and kinasetype PCC patients. These data have been added to the revised manuscript as Supplemental Figure S4 (Page 14).

      Author response image 5.

      The frequency distribution of cell types within the microenvironment of metabolism-type and kinase-type PCC patients.

      5) What makes the difference of scRNA-seq analysis and multispectral immunofluorescent staining in judging the immune escape of PCCs? Please provide an explanation.

      We appreciate the reviewer's concern. scRNA-seq lacks spatial details, and multispectral immunofluorescent staining is constrained in the number of detected proteins. To address this, we employed both methods for analysis. scRNA-seq revealed limited communication between tumor and T cells, with lower HLA-I expression in kinase-type PCCs compared to metabolism-type PCCs. This was supported by multispectral staining using antibodies against CD4+ T cells, CD8+ T cells, M1 macrophages, or M2 macrophages markers, indicating sparse immune cell infiltration around tumor cells, mainly in the stroma (Figure 7A and 7B). This dual approach strengthens our understanding of immune escape in both PCC types. The explanation has been added to the revised manuscript (Page 21).

      6) Figure 7G missed the scale bar for the staining results of marker proteins. Please add the scale bar into the figure.

      As suggested, we have added to the scale bar accordingly.

      7) In the method part of the manuscript, the authors should describe the minimum and maximum number used for quality control of the number of genes and the percentage of mitochondrial genes.

      For quality control, we established a minimum threshold of no less than 200 genes and a maximum threshold of no more than 5000 genes. Additionally, the quality control process included a maximum threshold of 30% for mitochondrial genes. These specific criteria have been added to the methods section of the revised manuscript (Page 25-26).

      We express our gratitude to the reviewer for their supportive recommendations and invaluable guidance on enhancing the rigor of our data.

      References for Reviewer #3:

      Todd DJ, McHeyzer-Williams LJ, Kowal C, Lee AH, Volpe BT, Diamond B, McHeyzer-Williams MG, Glimcher LH (2009) XBP1 governs late events in plasma cell differentiation and is not required for antigen-specific memory B cell development. The Journal of experimental medicine 206: 2151-2159

      Poulsen TS, Silahtaroglu AN, Gisselø CG, Tommerup N, Johnsen HE (2002) Detection of illegitimate rearrangements within the immunoglobulin light chain loci in B cell malignancies using end sequenced probes. Leukemia 16: 2148-2155

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The manuscript by Li et al. investigates the metabolism-independent role of nuclear IDH1 in chromatin state reprogramming during erythropoiesis. The authors describe accumulation and redistribution of histone H3K79me3, and downregulation of SIRT1, as a cause for dyserythropoiesis observed due to IDH1 deficiency. The authors studied the consequences of IDH1 knockdown, and targeted knockout of nuclear IDH1, in normal human erythroid cells derived from hematopoietic stem and progenitor cells and HUDEP2 cells respectively. They further correlate some of the observations such as nuclear localization of IDH1 and aberrant localization of histone modifications in MDS and AML patient samples harboring IDH1 mutations. These observations are intriguing from a mechanistic perspective and they hold therapeutic significance, however there are major concerns that make the inferences presented in the manuscript less convincing.

      (1) The authors show the presence of nuclear IDH1 both by cell fractionation and IF, and employ an efficient strategy to knock out nuclear IDH1 (knockout IDH1/ Sg-IDH1 and rescue with the NES tagged IDH1/ Sg-NES-IDH1 that does not enter the nucleus) in HUDEP2 cells. However, some important controls are missing.

      A) In Figure 3C, for IDH1 staining, Sg-IDH1 knockout control is missing.

      Thanks for the reviewer’s suggestion. We have complemented the staining of Sg-IDH1 knockout cells, and made corresponding revision in Figure 3C in the revised manuscript.

      B) Wild-type IDH1 rescue control (ie., IDH1 without NES tag) is missing to gauge the maximum rescue that is possible with this system.

      Thanks for the reviewer’s suggestion. We have overexpressed wild-type IDH1 in the IDH1-deficient HUDEP2 cell line and detected the phenotype. The results are presented in Supplementary Figure 9 in the revised manuscript. As shown in Supplementary Figure 9A, IDH1 deficiency resulted in reduced cell number in HUDEP2 cells, a phenotype that was rescued by overexpression of wild-type IDH1 but not by NES-IDH1. Given IDH1's well-established role in redox homeostasis through catalyzing isocitrate to α-KG conversion, we hypothesized that both wild-type IDH1 and NES-IDH1 overexpression would significantly restore α-KG levels compared to the IDH1-deficient group. Supplementary Figure 9B demonstrates that IDH1 depletion resulted in a dramatic decrease in α-KG levels, whereas overexpression of either wild-type IDH1 or NES-IDH1 almost completely restored α-KG levels, as anticipated. These results suggest that wild-type IDH1 overexpression can restore metabolic regulatory functions as effectively as NES-IDH1 overexpression. To investigate whether apoptosis contributes to the impaired cell expansion caused by IDH1 deficiency, we performed Annexin V/PI staining to quantify apoptotic cells. As shown in Supplementary Figure 9C and D, flow cytometry analysis revealed no significant changes in apoptosis rates following either IDH1 depletion or ectopic expression of wild-type IDH1 or NES-IDH1 in IDH1 deficient HUDEP2 cells.

      Flow cytometric analysis demonstrated that IDH1 deficiency triggered S-phase accumulation at day 8, indicative of cell cycle arrest. Whereas ectopic expression of wild-type IDH1 significantly rescued this cell cycle defect, overexpression of NES-IDH1 failed to ameliorate the S-phase accumulation phenotype induced by IDH1 depletion, as presented in Supplementary Figure 9E and F. Although NES-IDH1 overexpression rescued metabolic regulatory function defect, it failed to alleviate the cell cycle arrest induced by IDH1 deficiency. In contrast, wild-type IDH1 overexpression fully restored normal cell cycle progression. This functional dichotomy demonstrates that nuclear-localized IDH1 executes critical roles distinct from its cytoplasmic counterpart, and overexpression of wild-type IDH1 could efficient restore the functional impairment induced by depletion of nuclear localized IDH1.

      (2) Considering the nuclear knockout of IDH1 (Sg-NES-IDH1 referenced in the previous point) is a key experimental system that the authors have employed to delineate non-metabolic functions of IDH1 in human erythropoiesis, some critical experiments are lacking to make convincing inferences.

      A) The authors rely on IF to show the nuclear deletion of Sg-NES-IDH1 HUDEP2 cells. As mentioned earlier since a knockout control is missing in IF experiments, a cellular fractionation experiment (similar to what is shown in Figure 2F) is required to convincingly show the nuclear deletion in these cells.

      We sincerely thank the reviewer for raising this critical point. As suggested, we have performed additional IF experiments and cellular fractionation experiments to comprehensively address the subcellular localization of IDH1.

      The results of IF staining were shown in Figure 3C of the revised manuscript. In Control HUDEP2 cells, endogenous IDH1 was detected in both the cytoplasm and nucleus. This dual localization may reflect its dynamic roles in cytoplasmic metabolic processes and potential nuclear functions under specific conditions. In Sg-IDH1 cells (IDH1 knockout), IDH1 signal was undetectable, confirming efficient depletion of the protein. In Sg-NES-IDH1 cells (overexpressing NES-IDH1 in IDH1 deficient cells), IDH1 predominantly accumulated in the cytoplasm, consistent with the disruption of its nuclear export signal. The dual localization of IDH1 that was determined by IF staining experiment were then further confirmed by cellular fractionation assays, as shown in Figure 3D.

      B) Since the authors attribute nuclear localization to a lack of metabolic/enzymatic functions, it is important to show the status of ROS and alpha-KG in the Sg-NES-IDH1 in comparison to control, wild type rescue, and knockout HUDEP2 cells. The authors observe an increase of ROS and a decrease of alpha-KG upon IDH1 knockdown. If nuclear IDH1 is not involved in metabolic functions, is there only a minimal or no impact of the nuclear knockout of IDH1 on ROS and alpha-KG, in comparison to complete knockout? These studies are lacking.

      We appreciate the insightful suggestions of the reviewers and agree that the detection of ROS and alpha-KG is useful for the demonstration of the non-canonical function of IDH1. We examined alpha-KG concentrations in control, IDH1 knockout and nuclear IDH1 knockout HUDEP2 cell lines. The results showed a significant decrease in alpha-KG content after complete knockout of IDH1, whereas there was no significant change in nuclear knockout IDH1 (Supplementary Figure 9B). As to the detection of ROS level, the commercial ROS assay kits that we can get are detected using PE (Excitation: 565nm; Emission: 575nm) and FITC (Excitation: 488nm; Emission: 518nm) channels in flow cytometry. We constructed HUDEP2 cell lines of Sg-IDH1 and Sg-NES-IDH1 to express green fluorescent protein (Excitation: 488nm; Emission: 507nm) and Kusabira Orange fluorescent protein (Excitation: 500nm; Emission: 561nm) by themselves. Unfortunately, due to the spectral overlap of the fluorescence channels, we were unable to detect the changes in ROS levels in these HUDEP2 cell lines using the available commercial kit.

      (3) The authors report abnormal nuclear phenotype in IDH1 deficient erythroid cells. It is not clear what parameters are used here to define and quantify abnormal nuclei. Based on the cytospins (eg., Figure 1A, 3D) many multinucleated cells are seen in both shIDH1 and Sg-NES-IDH1 erythroid cells, compared to control cells. Importantly, this phenotype and enucleation defects are not rescued by the administration of alpha-KG (Figures 1E, F). The authors study these nuclei with electron microscopy and report increased euchromatin in Figure 4B. However, there is no discussion or quantification of polyploidy/multinucleation in the IDH1 deficient cells, despite their increased presence in the cytospins.

      A) PI staining followed by cell cycle FACS will be helpful in gauging the extent of polyploidy in IDH1 deficient cells and could add to the discussions of the defects related to abnormal nuclei.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s insightful suggestion. Since PI dye is detected using the PE channel (Excitation: 565nm; Emission: 575nm) of the flow cytometer and the HUDEP2 cell line expresses Kusabira orange fluorescent protein (Excitation: 500nm; Emission: 561nm), we were unable to use PI staining to detect the cell cycle. Edu staining is another commonly used method to determine cell cycle progression, and we performed Edu staining followed by flow cytometry analysis on Control, Sg-IDH1 and Sg-NES-IDH1 HUDEP2 cells, respectively. The results showed that complete knockdown of IDH1 resulted in S-phase block and increased polyploidy in HUDEP2 cells on day 8 of erythroid differentiation, and overexpression of IDH1-NES did not reverse this phenotype (Supplemental Figure 9E-F). Moreover, we have added a discussion of abnormal nuclei being associated with impaired erythropoiesis.

      B) For electron microscopy quantification in Figures 4B and C, how the quantification was done and the labelling of the y-axis (% of euchromatin and heterochromatin) in Figure 4 C is not clear and is confusingly presented. The details on how the quantification was done and a clear label (y-axis in Figure 4C) for the quantification are needed.

      Thanks for the reviewer's suggestion. In this study, we calculated the area of nuclear, heterochromatin and euchromatin by using Image J software. We addressed the quantification strategy in the section of Supplementary methods of the revised Supplementary file. In addition, the y-axis label in Figure 4C was changed to “the area percentage of euchromatin and heterochromatin’’.

      C) As mentioned earlier, what parameters were used to define and quantify abnormal nuclei (e.g. Figure 1A) needs to be discussed clearly. The red arrows in Figure 1A all point to bi/multinucleated cells. If this is the case, this needs to be made clear.

      We thank the reviewer for their suggestion. In our present study, nuclear malformations were defined as cells exhibiting binucleation or multinucleation based on cytospin analysis. A minimum of 300 cells per group were evaluated, and the proportion of aberrant nuclei was calculated as (number of abnormal cells / total counted cells) × 100%.

      (4) The authors mention that their previous study (reference #22) showed that ROS scavengers did not rescue dyseythropoiesis in shIDH1 cells. However, in this referenced study they did report that vitamin C, a ROS scavenger, partially rescued enucleation in IDH1 deficient cells and completely suppressed abnormal nuclei in both control and IDH1 deficient cells, in addition to restoring redox homeostasis by scavenging reactive oxygen species in shIDH1 erythroid cells. In the current study, the authors used ROS scavengers GSH and NAC in shIDH1 erythroid cells and showed that they do not rescue abnormal nuclei phenotype and enucleation defects. The differences between the results in their previous study with vitamin C vs GSH and NAC in the context of IDH1 deficiency need to be discussed.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s insightful observation. The apparent discrepancy between the effects of vitamin C (VC) in our previous study and glutathione (GSH)/N-acetylcysteine (NAC) in the current work can be attributed to divergent molecular mechanisms beyond ROS scavenging. A growing body of evidence has identified vitamin C as a multifunctional regulator. In addition to acting as an antioxidant maintaining redox homeostasis, VC also acts as a critical epigenetic modulator. VC have been identified as a cofactor for α-ketoglutarate (α-KG)-dependent dioxygenases, including TET2, which catalyzes 5-methylcytosine (5mC) oxidation to 5-hydroxymethylcytosine (5hmC) [1,2]. Structural studies confirm its direct interaction with TET2’s catalytic domain to enhance enzymatic activity in vitro [3]. The biological significance of the epigenetic modulation induced by vitamin C is illustrated by its ability to improve the generation of induced pluripotent stem cells and to induce a blastocyst-like state in mouse embryonic stem cells by promoting demethylation of H3K9 and 5mC, respectively [4,5]. In contrast, GSH and NAC are canonical ROS scavengers lacking intrinsic epigenetic-modifying activity. While they effectively neutralize oxidative stress (as validated by reduced ROS levels in our current data, Supplemental Figure 7), their inability to rescue nuclear abnormalities or enucleation defects in IDH1 deficient cells suggests that IDH1 deficiency-driven dyserythropoiesis is not solely ROS-dependent.

      References:

      (1) Blaschke K, Ebata KT, Karimi MM, Zepeda-Martínez JA, Goyal P, et al. Vitamin C induces Tet-dependent DNA demethylation and a blastocyst-like state in ES cells. Nature. 20138;500(7461): 222-226.

      (2) Minor EA, Court BL, Young JI, Wang G. Ascorbate induces ten-eleven translocation (Tet) methylcytosine dioxygenase-mediated generation of 5-hydroxymethylcytosine. J Biol Chem. 2013;288(19): 13669-13674.

      (3) Yin R, Mao S, Zhao B, Chong Z, Yang Y, et al. Ascorbic acid enhances Tet-mediated 5-methylcytosine oxidation and promotes DNA demethylation in mammals. J Am Chem Soc. 2013;135(28):10396-10403.

      (4) Esteban MA, Wang T, Qin B, Yang J, Qin D, et al. Vitamin C enhances the generation of mouse and human induced pluripotent stem cells. Cell Stem Cell. 2010;6(1):71-79.

      (5) Chung T, Brena RM, Kolle G, Grimmond SM, Berman BP, et al. Vitamin C promotes widespread yet specific DNA demethylation of the epigenome in human embryonic stem cells. Stem Cells. 2010;28(10):1848-1855.

      (5) The authors describe an increase in euchromatin as the consequential abnormal nuclei phenotype in shIDH1 erythroid cells. However, in their RNA-seq, they observe an almost equal number of genes that are up and down-regulated in shIDH1 cells compared to control cells. If possible, an RNA-Seq in nuclear knockout Sg-NES-IDH1 erythroid cells in comparison with knockout and wild-type cells will be helpful to tease out whether a specific absence of IDH1 in the nucleus (ie., lack of metabolic functions of IDH) impacts gene expression differently.

      Thanks for the reviewer's suggestion. ATAC-seq showed an increase in chromatin accessibility after IDH1 deletion, but the number of up-regulated genes was slightly larger than that of down-regulated genes, which may be caused by the metabolic changes affected by IDH1 deletion. In order to explore the effect of chromatin accessibility changes on gene expression after IDH1 deletion, we analyzed the changes in differential gene expression at the differential ATAC peak region (as shown in Author response image 1), and the results showed that the gene expression at the ATAC peak region with increased chromatin accessibility was significantly up-regulated. This may explain the regulation of chromatin accessibility on gene expression.

      Author response image 1.

      Box plots of gene expression differences of differential ATAC peaks located in promoter for the signal increasing and decreasing groups.

      (6) In Figure 8, the authors show data related to SIRT1's role in mediating non-metabolic, chromatin-associated functions of IDH1.

      A) The authors show that SIRT1 inhibition leads to a rescue of enucleation and abnormal nuclei. However, whether this rescues the progression through the late stages of terminal differentiation and the euchromatin/heterochromatin ratio is not clear.

      Thanks for the reviewer's suggestion. As shown in Supplementary Figure 14 and 15 in the revised Supplementary Data, our data showed that both the treatment of SRT1720 on normal erythroid cells and treatment of IDH1-deficient erythroid cells with SIRT1 inhibitor both have no effect on the terminal differentiation.

      (7) In Figure 4 and Supplemental Figure 8, the authors show the accumulation and altered cellular localization of H3K79me3, H3K9me3, and H3K27me2, and the lack of accumulation of other three histone modifications they tested (H3K4me3, H3K35me4, and H3K36me2) in shIDH1 cells. They also show the accumulation and altered localization of the specific histone marks in Sg-NES-IDH1 HUDEP2 cells.

      A) To aid better comparison of these histone modifications, it will be helpful to show the cell fractionation data of the three histone modifications that did not accumulate (H3K4me3, H3K35me4, and H3K36me2), similar to what was shown in Figure 4E for H3K79me3, H3K9me3, and H3K27me2).

      We appreciate the reviewer’s insightful suggestion. We collected erythroblasts on day 15 of differentiation from cord blood-derived CD34<sup>+</sup> hematopoietic stem cells to erythroid lineage and performed ChIP assay. As shown in Author response image 2, the results showed that the concentration of bound DNA of H3K9me3, H3K27me2 and H3K79me3 was too low to meet the sequencing quality requirement, which was consistent with that of WB. In addition, we tried to perform ChIP-seq for H3K79me3, and the results showed that there was no marked peak signal.

      Author response image 2.

      ChIP-seq analysis show that there was no marked peak signal of H3K79me3 on D15. (A) Quality control of ChIP assay for H3K9me3, H3K27me2, and H3K79me3. (B) Representative peaks chart image showed normalized ChIP signal of H3K79me3 at gene body regions. (C) Heatmaps displayed normalized ChIP signal of H3K79me3 at gene body regions. The window represents ±1.5 kb regions from the gene body. TES, transcriptional end site; TSS, transcriptional start site.

      C) Among the three histone marks that are dysregulated in IDH1 deficient cells (H3K79me3, H3K9me3, and H3K27me2), the authors show via ChIP-seq (Fig5) that H3K79me3 is the critical factor. However, the ChIP-seq data shown here lacks many details and this makes it hard to interpret the data. For example, in Figure 5A, they do not mention which samples the data shown correspond to (are these differential peaks in shIDH1 compared to shLuc cells?). There is also no mention of how many replicates were used for the ChIP seq studies.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We apologize for not clearly describing the ChIP-seq data for H3K9me3, H3K27me2 and H3K79me3 and we have revised them in the corresponding paragraphs. Since H3 proteins gradually translocate from the nucleus to the cytoplasm starting at day 11 (late Baso-E/Ploy-E) of erythroid lineage differentiation, we performed ChIP-seq for H3K9me3, H3K27me2 and H3K79me3 only for the shIDH1 group, and set up three independent biological replicates for each of them.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Li and colleagues investigate the enzymatic activity-independent function of IDH1 in regulating erythropoiesis. This manuscript reveals that IDH1 deficiency in the nucleus leads to the redistribution of histone marks (especially H3K79me3) and chromatin state reprogramming. Their findings suggest a non-typical localization and function of the metabolic enzyme, providing new insights for further studies into the non-metabolic roles of metabolic enzymes. However, there are still some issues that need addressing:

      (1) Could the authors show the RNA and protein expression levels (without fractionation) of IDH1 on different days throughout the human CD34+ erythroid differentiation?

      We sincerely appreciate the reviewer’s constructive feedback. To address this point, we have now systematically quantified IDH1 expression dynamics across erythropoiesis stages using qRT-PCR and Western blot analyses. As quantified in Supplementary fige 1, IDH1 expression exhibited a progressive upregulation during early erythropoiesis and subsequently stabilized throughout terminal differentiation.

      (2) Even though the human CD34+ erythroid differentiation protocol was published and cited in the manuscript, it would be helpful to specify which erythroid stages correspond to cells on days 7, 9, 11, 13, and 15.

      We sincerely thank the reviewer for raising this important methodological consideration. Our research group has previously established a robust platform for staged human erythropoiesis characterization using cord blood-derived CD34<sup>+</sup> hematopoietic stem cells (HSCs) [6-9]. This standardized protocol enables high-purity isolation and functional analysis of erythroblasts at defined differentiation stages.

      Thanks for the reviewer’s suggestion. Our previous work (Jingping Hu et.al, Blood 2013. Xu Han et.al, Blood 2017.Yaomei Wang et.al, Blood 2021.) have isolation and functional characterization of human erythroblasts at distinct stages by using Cord blood. These works illustrated that using cord blood-derived hematopoietic stem cells and purification each stage of human erythrocytes can facilitate a comprehensive cellular and molecular characterization.

      Following isolation from cord blood, CD34<sup>+</sup> cells were cultured in a serum-free medium and induced to undergo erythroid differentiation using our standardized protocol. The process of erythropoiesis was comprised of 2 phases. During the early phase (day 0 to day 6), hematopoietic stem progenitor cells expanded and differentiated into erythroid progenitors, including BFU-E and CFU-E cells.

      During terminal erythroid maturation (day 7 to day 15), CFU-E cells progressively transitioned through defined erythroblast stages, as validated by daily cytospin morphology and expression of band 3/α4 integrin. The stage-specific composition was quantitatively characterized as follows:

      Author response table 1.

      The composition of erythroblast during terminal stage erythropoiesis.

      This differentiation progression from proerythroblasts (Pro-E) through basophilic (Baso-E), polychromatic (Poly-E), to orthochromatic erythroblasts (Ortho-E) recapitulates physiological human erythropoiesis, confirming the validity of our differentiation system for mechanistic studies.

      Reference:

      (6) Li J, Hale J, Bhagia P, Xue F, Chen L, et al. Isolation and transcriptome analyses of human erythroid progenitors: BFU-E and CFU-E. Blood. 2014;124(24):3636-3645.

      (7) Hu J, Liu J, Xue F, Halverson G, Reid M, et al. Isolation and functional characterization of human erythroblasts at distinct stages: implications for understanding of normal and disordered erythropoiesis in vivo. Blood. 2013;121(16):3246-3253.

      (8) Wang Y, Li W, Schulz VP, Zhao H, Qu X, et al. Impairment of human terminal erythroid differentiation by histone deacetylase 5 deficiency. Blood. 2021;138(17):1615-1627.

      (9) Li M, Liu D, Xue F, Zhang H, Yang Q, et al. Stage-specific dual function: EZH2 regulates human erythropoiesis by eliciting histone and non-histone methylation. Haematologica. 2023;108(9):2487-2502.

      (3) It is important to mention on which day the lentiviral knockdown of IDH1 was performed. Will the phenotype differ if the knockdown is performed in early vs. late erythropoiesis? In Figures 1C and 1D, on which day do the authors begin the knockdown of IDH1 and administer NAC and GSH treatments?

      We sincerely appreciate the reviewer’s inquiry regarding the experimental timeline. The day of getting CD34<sup>+</sup> cells was recorded as day 0. Lentivirus of IDH1-shRNA and Luciferase -shRNA was transduced in human CD34<sup>+</sup> at day 2. Puromycin selection was initiated 24h post-transduction to eliminate non-transduced cells. IDH1-KD cells were then selected for 3 days. The knock down deficiency of IDH1 was determined on day 7. NAC or GSH was added to culture medium and replenished every 2 days.

      (4) While the cell phenotype of IDH1 deficiency is quite dramatic, yielding cells with larger nuclei and multi-nuclei, the authors only attribute this phenotype to defects in chromatin condensation. Is it possible that IDH1-knockdown cells also exhibit primary defects in mitosis/cytokinesis (not just secondary to the nuclear condensation defect)?), given the function of H3K79Me in cell cycle regulation?

      We appreciate the reviewer’s insightful suggestion. We performed Edu based cell cycle analysis on Control, Sg-IDH1 and Sg-NES-IDH1 HUDEP2 cells, respectively. The results showed that IDH1 deficiency resulted in S-phase block and increased polyploidy in HUDEP2 cells on day 8 of erythroid differentiation. NES-IDH1 overexpression failed to rescue these defects, indicating nuclear IDH1 depletion as the primary driving factor (Figure 3E,F). Recent studies have established a clear link between cell cycle arrest and nuclear malformation. Chromosome mis-segregation, nuclear lamina disruption, mechanical stress on the nuclear envelope, and nucleolar dysfunction all contribute to nuclear abnormalities that trigger cell cycle checkpoints [10,11]. Based on all these findings, it reasonable for us to speculate that the cell cycle defect in IDH1 deficient cells might caused by the nuclear malfunction.

      Reference:

      (10) Hong T, Hogger AC, Wang D, Pan Q, Gansel J, et al. Cell Death Discov. CDK4/6 inhibition initiates cell cycle arrest by nuclear translocation of RB and induces a multistep molecular response. 2024;10(1):453.

      (11) Hervé S, Scelfo A, Marchisio GB, Grison M, Vaidžiulytė K, et al. Chromosome mis-segregation triggers cell cycle arrest through a mechanosensitive nuclear envelope checkpoint. Nat Cell Biol. 2025;27(1):73-86. 

      (5) Why are there two bands of Histone H3 in Figure 4A?

      We sincerely appreciate the reviewer's insightful observation regarding the dual bands of Histone H3 in our original Figure 4A. Upon rigorous investigation, we identified that the observed doublet pattern likely originated from the inter-batch variability of the original commercial antibody. To conclusively resolve this technical artifact, we have procured a new lot of Histone H3 antibody and repeated the western blot experimental under optimized conditions, and the results demonstrates a single band of H3.

      (6) Displaying a heatmap and profile plots in Figure 5A between control and IDH1-deficient cells will help illustrate changes in H3K79me3 density in the nucleus after IDH1 knockdown.

      Thank you for your suggestion. As presented in Author response image 2, we performed ChIP assays on erythroblasts collected at day 15. However, the concentration of H3K79me3-bound DNA was insufficient to meet the quality threshold required for reliable sequencing. Consequently, we are unable to generate the requested heatmap and profile plots due to limitations in data integrity from this experimental condition.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Li, Zhang, Wu, and colleagues describe a new role for nuclear IDH1 in erythroid differentiation independent from its enzymatic function. IDH1 depletion results in a terminal erythroid differentiation defect with polychromatic and orthochromatic erythroblasts showing abnormal nuclei, nuclear condensation defects, and an increased proportion of euchromatin, as well as enucleation defects. Using ChIP-seq for the histone modifications H3K79me3, H3K27me2, and H3K9me3, as well as ATAC-seq and RNA-seq in primary CD34-derived erythroblasts, the authors elucidate SIRT1 as a key dysregulated gene that is upregulated upon IDH1 knockdown. They furthermore show that chemical inhibition of SIRT1 partially rescues the abnormal nuclear morphology and enucleation defect during IDH1-deficient erythroid differentiation. The phenotype of delayed erythroid maturation and enucleation upon IDH1 shRNA-mediated knockdown was described in the group's previous co-authored study (PMID: 33535038). The authors' new hypothesis of an enzyme- and metabolism-independent role of IDH1 in this process is currently not supported by conclusive experimental evidence as discussed in more detail further below. On the other hand, while the dependency of IDH1 mutant cells on NAD+, as well as cell survival benefit upon SIRT1 inhibition, has already been shown (see, e.g, PMID: 26678339, PMID: 32710757), previous studies focused on cancer cell lines and did not look at a developmental differentiation process, which makes this study interesting.

      (1) The central hypothesis that IDH1 has a role independent of its enzymatic function is interesting but not supported by the experiments. One of the author's supporting arguments for their claim is that alpha-ketoglutarate (aKG) does not rescue the IDH1 phenotype of reduced enucleation. However, in the group's previous co-authored study (PMID: 33535038), they show that when IDH1 is knocked down, the addition of aKG even exacerbates the reduced enucleation phenotype, which could indicate that aKG catalysis by cytoplasmic IDH1 enzyme is important during terminal erythroid differentiation. A definitive experiment to test the requirement of IDH1's enzymatic function in erythropoiesis would be to knock down/out IDH1 and re-express an IDH1 catalytic site mutant. The authors perform an interesting genetic manipulation in HUDEP-2 cells to address a nucleus-specific role of IDH1 through CRISPR/Cas-mediated IDH1 knockout followed by overexpression of an IDH1 construct containing a nuclear export signal. However, this system is only used to show nuclear abnormalities and (not quantified) accumulation of H3K79me3 upon nuclear exclusion of IDH1. Otherwise, a global IDH1 shRNA knockdown approach is employed, which will affect both forms of IDH1, cytoplasmic and nuclear. In this system and even the NES-IDH1 system, an enzymatic role of IDH1 cannot be excluded because (1) shRNA selection takes several days, prohibiting the assessment of direct effects of IDH1 loss of function (only a degron approach could address this if IDH1's half-life is short), and (2) metabolic activity of this part of the TCA cycle in the nucleus has recently been demonstrated (PMID: 36044572), and thus even a nuclear role of IDH1 could be linked to its enzymatic function, which makes it a challenging task to separate two functions if they exist.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s emphasis on rigorously distinguishing between enzymatic and enzymatic independent roles of IDH1. In our revised manuscript, we have removed all assertions of a "metabolism-independent" mechanism. Instead, we focus on demonstrating that nuclear-localized IDH1 contributes to chromatin state regulation during terminal erythropoiesis (e.g., H3K79me3 accumulation). While we acknowledge that nuclear IDH1’s enzymatic activity may still play a role [12], our data emphasize its spatial association with chromatin remodeling. We now explicitly state that nuclear IDH1’s function may involve both enzymatic and structural roles, and further studies are required to dissect these mechanisms.

      Reference:

      (12) Kafkia E, Andres-Pons A, Ganter K, Seiler M, Smith TS, et al.Operation of a TCA cycle subnetwork in the mammalian nucleus. Sci Adv. 2022;8(35):eabq5206.

      (2) It is not clear how the enrichment of H3K9me3, a prominent marker of heterochromatin, upon IDH1 knockdown in the primary erythroid culture (Figure 4), goes along with a 2-3-fold increase in euchromatin. Furthermore, in the immunofluorescence (IF) experiments presented in Figure 4Db, it seems that H3K9me3 levels decrease in intensity (the signal seems more diffuse), which seems to contrast the ChIP-seq data. It would be interesting to test for localization of other heterochromatin marks such as HP1gamma. As a related point, it is not clear at what stage of erythroid differentiation the ATAC-seq was performed upon luciferase- and IDH1-shRNA-mediated knockdown shown in Figure 6. If it was done at a similar stage (Day 15) as the electron microscopy in Figure 4B, then the authors should explain the discrepancy between the vast increase in euchromatin and the rather small increase in ATAC-seq signal upon IDH1 knockdown.

      Thank you for raising this important point. We agree that while H3K9me3 and H3K27me2 modifications are detectable in the nucleus, their functional association with chromatin in this context remains unclear. Our ChIP-seq data did not reveal distinct enrichment peaks for H3K9me3 or H3K27me2 (unlike the well-defined H3K79me3 peaks), suggesting that these marks may not be stably bound to specific chromatin regions under the experimental conditions tested. However, we acknowledge that the absence of clear peaks in our dataset does not definitively rule out chromatin interactions, as technical limitations or transient binding dynamics could influence these results. To avoid over-interpretation, we have removed speculative statements about the chromatin-unbound status of H3K9me3 and H3K27me2 from the revised manuscript. This revision aligns with our broader effort to present conclusions strictly supported by the current data while highlighting open questions for future investigation.

      (3)The subcellular localization of IDH1, in particular its presence on chromatin, is not convincing in light of histone H3 being enriched in the cytoplasm on the same Western blot. H3 would be expected to be mostly localized to the chromatin fraction (see, e.g., PMID: 31408165 that the authors cite). The same issue is seen in Figure 4A.

      We sincerely appreciate the reviewer's insightful comment regarding the subcellular distribution of histone H3 in our study. We agree that histone H3 is classically associated with chromatin-bound fractions, and its cytoplasmic enrichment in our Western blot analyses appears counterintuitive at first glance. However, this observation is fully consistent with the unique biology of terminal erythroid differentiation, which involves drastic nuclear remodeling and histone release - a hallmark of terminal stage erythropoiesis. Terminal erythroid differentiation is characterized by progressive nuclear condensation, chromatin compaction, and eventual enucleation. During this phase, global chromatin reorganization leads to the active eviction of histones from the condensed nucleus into the cytoplasm. This process has been extensively documented in erythroid cells, with studies demonstrating cytoplasmic accumulation of histones H3 and H4 as a direct consequence of nuclear envelope breakdown and chromatin decondensation preceding enucleation [13-16]. Our experiments specifically analyzed terminal-stage polychromatic and orthochromatic erythroblasts. At this stage, histone releasing into the cytoplasm is a dominant biological event, explaining the pronounced cytoplasmic H3 signal in our subcellular fractionation assays.

      In summary, the cytoplasmic enrichment of histone H3 in our data aligns with established principles of erythroid biology and reinforces the physiological relevance of our findings. We thank the reviewer for raising this critical point, which allowed us to better articulate the unique aspects of our experimental system.

      Reference:

      (13) Hattangadi SM, Martinez-Morilla S, Patterson HC, Shi J, Burke K, et al. Histones to the cytosol: exportin 7 is essential for normal terminal erythroid nuclear maturation. Blood. 2014;124(12):1931-1940.

      (14) Zhao B, Mei Y, Schipma MJ, Roth EW, Bleher R, et al. Nuclear Condensation during Mouse Erythropoiesis Requires Caspase-3-Mediated Nuclear Opening. Dev Cell. 2016;36(5): 498-510.

      (15) Zhao B, Liu H, Mei Y, Liu Y, Han X, et al. Disruption of erythroid nuclear opening and histone release in myelodysplastic syndromes. Cancer Med. 2019;8(3):1169-1174. 

      (16) Zhen R, Moo C, Zhao Z, Chen M, Feng H, et al.  Wdr26 regulates nuclear condensation in developing erythroblasts. Blood. 2020;135(3):208-219.

      (4) This manuscript will highly benefit from more precise and complete explanations of the experiments performed, the material and methods used, and the results presented. At times, the wording is confusing. As an example, one of the "Key points" is described as "Dyserythropoiesis is caused by downregulation of SIRT1 induced by H3K79me3 accumulation." It should probably read "upregulation of SIRT1".

      We sincerely thank the reviewer for highlighting the need for improved clarity in our experimental descriptions and textual precision. We fully agree that rigorous wording is essential to accurately convey scientific findings. Specific modifications have been made and are highlighted in Track Changes mode in the resubmitted manuscript.

      The reviewer correctly identified an inconsistency in the original phrasing of one key finding. The sentence in question ("Dyserythropoiesis is caused by downregulation of SIRT1 induced by H3K79me3 accumulation") has been revised to:"Dyserythropoiesis is caused by the upregulation of SIRT1 mediated through H3K79me3 accumulation." This correction aligns with our experimental data showing that H3K79me3 elevation promotes SIRT1 transcriptional activation. We apologize for this oversight and have verified the consistency of all regulatory claims in the text.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) It will be helpful to mention/introduce the cells used for the study at the beginning of the results section. For example, for Figure 1A neither the figure legend nor the results text includes information on the cells used.

      Thanks for the reviewer’s suggestion. The detail information of the cells that were used in our study have been provided in the revised manuscript.

      (2) Important details for many figures are lacking. For example, in Figure 5, there is no mention of the replicates for ChIP-Seq studies. Also, the criteria used for quantifications of abnormal nuclei, % euchromatin vs heterochromatin, the numbers of biological replicates, and how many fields/cells were used for these quantifications are missing.

      We thank the reviewer for emphasizing the importance of methodological transparency. It has been revised accordingly. The ChIP-Seq data in Figure 5 was generated from three independent biological replicates to ensure reproducibility. In this study, Image J software was used to calculate the area of nuclear, heterochromatin/euchromatin and to quantify the percentage of euchromatin and heterochromatin. A minimum of 300 cells per group were evaluated, and the proportion of aberrant nuclei was calculated as (number of abnormal cells / total counted cells) × 100%.

      (3) It will be helpful if supplemental data are ordered according to how they are discussed in the text. Currently, the order of the supplemental data is hard to keep track of eg., the results section starts describing supplemental Figure 1, then the text jumps to supplemental Figure 5 followed by Supplemental Figure 3 (and so on).

      Thanks for the reviewer’s suggestion. It has been revised accordingly.

      (4) Overall, there are many incomplete sentences and typos throughout the manuscript including some of the figures e.g. on page 10 the sentence "Since the generation of erythroid with abnormal nucleus and reduction of mature red blood cells caused by IDH1 absence are notable characteristics of MDS and AML." is incomplete. On page 11, it reads "Histone post-modifications". This needs to be either histone modifications or histone post-translational modifications. In Figure 4C, the y-axis title is hard to understand "% of euchromatin and heterochromatin". Overall, the document needs to be proofread and revised carefully.

      Thanks for the reviewer’s suggestion. We have made revision accordingly in the revised manuscript. The sentence "Since the generation of erythroid with abnormal nucleus and reduction of mature red blood cells caused by IDH1 absence are notable characteristics of MDS and AML." has been revised to “The production of erythrocytes with abnormal nuclei and the reduction of mature erythrocytes due to IDH1 deletion are prominent features of MDS and AML.”  “% of euchromatin and heterochromatin” has been modified to “Area ratio of euchromatin to heterochromatin”.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The following critique points aim to help the authors to improve their manuscript:

      (1) The authors reason (p. 10) that because mutant IDH1 has been shown to result in altered chromatin organization, this could be the case in their system, too. However, mutant IDH1 has an ascribed metabolic consequence, the generation of 2-HG, which further weakens the author's argument for an enzymatically independent role of IDH1 in their system. The same is true for the author's observation in Supplementary Figure 9B that in IDH1-mutant AML/MDS samples, H3K79me3 colocalized with the IDH1 mutants in the nucleus. Again, this speaks in favor of IDH1's role being linked to metabolism. The authors could re-write this manuscript, not so much emphasizing the separation of function between different subcellular forms of IDH1 but rather focusing on the chromatin changes and how they could be linked to the actual phenotype, the nuclear condensation and enucleation defect - if so, addressing the surprising finding of enrichment of both active and repressive chromatin marks will be important.

      Thanks for the reviewer’s suggestion. We agree with the reviewers and editors all the data we present in the current are not robust enough to rigorously distinguish between enzymatic and enzymatic-independent roles of IDH1. In our revised manuscript, we have removed all assertions of a "metabolism-independent" mechanism. Instead, we focus on demonstrating that nuclear-localized IDH1 contributes to chromatin state regulation during terminal erythropoiesis (e.g., H3K79me3 accumulation).

      (2) How come so many genes were downregulated by RNA-seq (about an equal number as upregulated genes) but not more open by ATAC-seq? The authors should discuss this result.

      Thanks for the reviewer's suggestion. ATAC-seq showed an increase in chromatin accessibility after IDH1 deletion, but the number of up-regulated genes was slightly larger than that of down-regulated genes, which may be caused by the metabolic changes affected by IDH1 deletion. In order to explore the effect of chromatin accessibility changes on gene expression after IDH1 deletion, we analyzed the changes in differential gene expression at the differential ATAC peak region (as shown in the figure below), and the results showed that the gene expression at the ATAC peak region with increased chromatin accessibility was significantly up-regulated. This may explain the regulation of chromatin accessibility on gene expression.

      (3) For the ChIP-seq analyses of H3K79me3, H3K27me2, and H3K9me3, the authors should not just show genome-wide data but also several example gene tracks to demonstrate the differential abundance of peaks in control versus IDH1 knockdown. Furthermore, the heatmap shown in Figure 5A should include broader regions spanning the gene bodies, to visualize the intergenic H3K27me2 and H3K9me3 peaks. Expression could very well be regulated from these intergenic regions as they could bear enhancer regions. ChIP-seq for H3K27Ac in the same setting would be very useful to identify those enhancers.

      Thanks for the reviewer’s suggestion. It has been revised accordingly. We reanalyzed the ChIP-seq peak signal of H3K79me3, H3K27me2 and H3K9me3 in a wider region (±5Kb) at gene body, and the results showed that the H3K27me2 and H3K9me3 peak signals did not change significantly. Since H3K79me3 showed a higher peak signal and was mainly enriched in the promoter region, our subsequent analysis focusing on the impact of H3K79me3 accumulation on chromatin accessibility and gene expression might be more valuable.

      Author response image 3.

      ChIP-seq analysis show that the peak signal of H3K79me3,H3K27me2 and H3K9me3. (A) Heatmaps displayed normalized ChIP signal of H3K9me3, H3K27me2, and H3K79me3 at gene body regions. The window represents ±5 kb regions from the gene body. TES, transcriptional end site; TSS, transcriptional start site. (B) Representative peaks chart image showed normalized ChIP signal of H3K9me3, H3K27me2, and H3K79me3 at gene body regions.

      (4) The absent or very mild delay (also no significance visible in the quantification plots) in the generation of orthochromatic erythroblasts on Day 13 upon IDH1 shRNA knockdown as per a4-integrin/Band3 flow cytometry does not correspond to the already quite prominent number of multinucleated cells at that stage seen by cytospin/Giemsa staining. Why do the authors think this is the case? Cytospin/Giemsa staining might be the better method to quantify this phenotype and the authors should quantify the cells at different stages in at least 100 cells from non-overlapping cytospin images.

      Thanks for the reviewer’s suggestion. We have supplemented the cytpspin assay and the results were presented in Supplemental Figure 4.

      (5) The pull-down assay in Figure 7E does not show a specific binding of H3K79me3 to the SIRT1 promoter. Rather, there is just more H3K79me3 in the nucleus, thus leading to generally increased binding. The authors should show that H3K79me3 does not bind more just everywhere but to specific loci. The ChIP-seq data mention only categories but don't show any gene lists that could hint at the specificity of H3K79me3 binding at genes that would promote nuclear abnormalities and enucleation defects.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. The GSEA results of H3K79me3 peak showed enrichment of chromatin related biological processes, and the list of associated genes is shown Figure 7B. In addition, we also displayed the changes in H3K79me3 peak signals, ATAC peak signals, and gene expression at gene loci of three chromatin-associated genes (SIRT1, KMT5A and NUCKS1).

      (6) P. 12: "Representatively, gene expression levels and ATAC peak signals at SIRT1 locus were elevated in IDH1-shRNA group and were accompanied by enrichment of H3K9me3 (Figure 7F)." Figure 7F does not show an enrichment of H3K9me3, but if the authors found such, they should explain how this modification correlates with the activation of gene expression.

      Thank you for bringing this issue to our attention. We sincerely apologize for the mistake in the description of Figure 7F on page 12. We have already corrected this error in the revised manuscript.

      (7) Related to the mild phenotype by flow cytometry on Day 13, are the "3 independent biological replicates" from culturing and differentiating CD34 cells from 3 different donors? If all are from the same donor, experiments from at least a second donor should be performed to generalize the results.

      In our current study, CD34<sup>+</sup> cells were derived from different donors. 

      (8) If the images in Supplementary Figure 4 are only the indicated cell type, then it is not clear how the data were quantified since only some cells in each image are pointed at and others do not seem to have as large nuclei. There is also no explanation in the legend what the colors mean (nuclei were presumably stained with DAPI, not clear what the cytoplasm stain is - GPA?).

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We have revised the manuscript accordingly. Specifically, the nuclei was stained with DAPI and the color was blue. The cell membrane was stained with GPA and the color was red. This staining method allows for clear visualization of the cell structure and helps to better understand the localization of the proteins of interest.

      (9) It is not clear to this reviewer whether Figure 4F is a quantification of the Western Blot or of the IF data.

      Figure 4F is a quantification of the Western Blot experiment.

      (10) The authors sometimes do not describe experiments well, e.g., "treatment of IDH1-deficient erythroid cells with IDH1-EX527" (p. 13). EX-527 is a SIRT1 inhibitor, which the authors only explicitly mention later in that paragraph. It is unclear to this reviewer, why the authors call it IDH1-EX527.

      Thank you for pointing out the unclear description in our manuscript. We apologize for the confusion caused by the unclear statement. We have revised the manuscript accordingly. The compound EX-527 is a SIRT1 inhibitor, and we have corrected the description to simply "EX-527" in the revised manuscript.

      (11) The end of the introduction needs revising to be more concise; the last paragraph on p. 4 ("Recently, the decreased expression of IDH1...") partially should be integrated with the previous paragraph, and partially is repeated in the last paragraph (top paragraph on p. 5). The last sentence on p. 4, "These findings strongly suggest that aberrant expression of IDH1 is also an important factor in the pathogenesis of AML and MDS.", should rather read "increased expression of IDH1", to distinguish it from mutant IDH1 (mutant IDH1 is also aberrantly expressed IDH1).

      We appreciated the reviewer for the helpful suggestion. Considering that the inclusion of this paragraph did not provide a valuable contribution to the formulation of the scientific question, we have removed it after careful consideration, and the revised manuscript is generally more logically smooth.

      (12) Abstract and last sentence of the introduction: "innovative perspective" should be re-worded, as the authors present data, not a perspective. Maybe could use "evidence".

      Thanks for the reviewer’s suggestion. It has been revised accordingly.

      (13) "IDH1-mut AML/MDS" on p. 11. The authors should provide more information about these AML/MDS samples. The legend contains no information about them/their mutational status. How many samples did the authors look at? Do these cells contain mutations other than IDH1?

      Thanks for the reviewer’s suggestion. The detail information of these AML/MDS samples are provide in supplemental table 1. In our current study, we collected ten AML/MDS samples and the majority of the samples only contain IDH1 mutations at different sites.

      (14) The statement, "Taken together, these results indicated that IDH1 deficiency reshaped chromatin states and subsequently altered gene expression pattern, especially for genes regulated by H3K79me3, which was the mechanism underlying roles of IDH1 in modulation of terminal erythropoiesis." (p. 10), is not correct at that point in the manuscript as the authors have not yet introduced the RNA-seq data.

      Thanks for the reviewer’s suggestion. The statement has been revised to “Taken together, these results indicated that IDH1 deficiency reshaped chromatin states by altering the abundance and distribution of H3K79me3, which was the mechanism underlying roles of IDH1 in modulation of terminal erythropoiesis”.

      (15) For easier readability, the authors should present the data in order. For example, the supplemental data for IDH shRNA and siRNA should be presented together and not in Supplementary Figures 1 and 5. Supplementary Figure 3 is mentioned after Supplementary Figure 1, but before Supplementary Figure 2 - again, all data need to be presented in subsequent figures to be viewed together.

      Thank you for your suggestion regarding the order of data presentation. We have reorganized the figures in the manuscript to improve readability. We apologize for any confusion caused by the previous arrangement and hope that the revised version meets your expectations.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Fallah and colleagues characterize the connectivity between two basal ganglia output nuclei, the SNr and GPe, and the pedunculopontine nucleus, a brainstem nucleus that is part of the mesencephalic locomotor region. Through a series of systematic electrophysiological studies, they find that these regions target and inhibit different populations of neurons, with anatomical organization. Overall, SNr projects to PPN and inhibits all major cell types, while the GPe inhibits glutamatergic and GABAergic PPN neurons, and preferentially in the caudal part of the nucleus. Optogenetic manipulation of these inputs had opposing effects on behavior - SNr terminals in the PPN drove place aversion, while GPe terminals drove place preference.

      Strengths:

      This work is a thorough and systematic characterization of a set of relatively understudied circuits. They build on the classic notions of basal ganglia connectivity and suggest a number of interesting future directions to dissect motor control and valence processing in brainstem systems. We thank the reviewer for these positive comments.

      Weaknesses:

      Characterization of the behavioral effects of manipulations of these PPN input circuits could be further parsed, for a better understanding of the functional consequences of the connections demonstrated in the ephys analyses.

      We have further analyzed our behavioral data to reveal more nuanced functional effects and included these analyses in Figure S2.

      All the cell type recording studies showing subtle differences in the degree of inhibition and anatomical organization of that inhibition suggest a complex effect of general optogenetic manipulation of SNr or GPe terminals in the PPN. It will be important to determine if SNr or GPe inputs onto a particular cell type in PPN are more or less critical for how the locomotion and valence effects are demonstrated here.

      This is a really interesting future direction and we have expanded on these points in the discussion in lines 771-772 and 782-785.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Overall these are really valuable studies and help set up a number of future directions.

      We thank the reviewer for their positive comments.

      (2) I don't have many specific suggestions, but more examples of viral targeting and cell type targeting, including potentially some validation of the genetic identity of the cells targeted, could be useful for considering the details of the ephys experiments.

      We agree that understanding which exact SNr and GPe neurons go to which exact PPN populations is an important next step and are planning to conduct future experiments investigating these important questions. Others have found that there is minimal overlap between the three cell types within the PPN discussed in this manuscript (Wang and Morales 2009; Yoo et al. 2017; Steinkellner, Yoo, and Hnasko 2019). One important line of future investigations is to look at the specific inputs onto recently identified subsets of the glutamatergic PPN neurons such as Chx10- and Rbp4-expressing neurons (Goñi-Erro et al. 2023; Ferreira-Pinto et al. 2021). We hope to explore the electrophysiological properties and connectivity of these subtypes in future projects.

      (3) More discussion of which PPN cell types might be mediating the optogenetic behavioral effects of bulk SNr or GPe terminal stimulation would be useful for connecting the ephys results with the behavior.

      We are also interested in the question of which PPN cell type is most critical for mediating the effects observed in bulk terminal stimulation. While the best experiment would be to stimulate the axons projecting to each specific cell type of the PPN, this is not currently possible due to methodological limitations and lack of studies dissecting which SNr and GPe subpopulations project to each cell type of the PPN. However, in future studies, we plan to leverage the ability of AAV1 to jump a synapse along with Cre/Flp viruses and mouse lines to selectively inhibit cholinergic, GABAergic, or glutamatergic PPN neurons that receive GPe or SNr input to elucidate the contribution of each cell type in mediating behavioral changes in movement and valence processing.

      To address these important future directions, we have added additional text in the discussion in lines 771-772 and 782-785.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Fallah et al carefully dissect projections from SNr and GPe - two key basal ganglia nuclei - to the PPN, an important brainstem nucleus for motor control. They consider inputs from these two areas onto 3 types of downstream PPN neurons: GABAergic, glutamatergic, and cholinergic neurons. They also carefully map connectivity along the rostrocaudal axis of the PPN.

      Strengths:

      The slice electrophysiology work is technically well done and provides useful information for further studies of PPN. The optogenetics and behavioral studies are thought-provoking, showing that SNr and GPe projections to PPN play distinct roles in behavior.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s positive evaluation.

      Weaknesses:

      Although the optogenetics and behavioral studies are intriguing, they are somewhat difficult to fit together into a specific model of circuit function. Perhaps the authors can work to solidify the connection between these two arms of the work.

      We have expanded on these topics in the discussion.

      Otherwise, there are a few questions whose answers could add context to the interpretation of these results:

      (1) Male and female mice are used, but the authors do not discuss any analysis of sex differences. If there are no sex differences, it is still useful to report data disaggregated by sex in addition to pooled data.

      We have added a supplementary figure (Figure S2) showing distance traveled during optical stimulation for male and female mice.

      (2) There is some lack of clarity in the current manuscript on the ages used - 2-5 months vs "at least 7 weeks." Is 7 weeks the time of virus injection surgery, then recordings 3 weeks later (at least 10 weeks)? Please clarify if these ages apply equally to electrophysiological and behavioral studies. If the age range used for the test is large, it may be useful to analyze and report if there are age-related effects.

      Thanks for pointing this out, we have clarified this in the methods. 7 weeks is the youngest age at which mice used for electrophysiology were injected, and all were used for electrophysiology between 2-5 months. For behavior, the youngest mice used were 11 weeks old at time of behavior (8 weeks old at injection). Mice in the GPe-stimulated condition were 110 ± 7.4 SEM days old and mice in the SNr-stimulated condition 132 ± 23.4 SEM days old. We have added these details to the revised manuscript in lines 913 and 963-964.

      In addition, we have correlated distance traveled at baseline and during stimulation with age for both SN and GPe stimulated conditions. Baseline distance traveled did not correlate with age, but there was a trend toward more movement during stimulation with older mice in the SN axon stimulation group. We have included these plots in supplemental Figure S2.

      (3) Were any exclusion criteria applied, e.g. to account for missed injections?

      All injection sites and implant sites were within our range of acceptability, so we did not exclude any mice for missed injections or incorrect implant location.

      (4) 28-34 degC is a fairly wide range of temperatures for electrophysiological recording, which could affect kinetics.

      This is an important consideration, and we agree the wide temperature is not optimal. We have plotted our main measurement of current amplitude in the condition where we found significant differences between rostral and caudal PPN (SNr to Vglut2 PPN neurons) against temperature and found no correlation (Pearson’s r value = -0.0076). Similarly, we found no correlation between baseline (pre-opto) firing frequency and temperature (r = -0.068). See Author response image 1.

      Author response image 1.

      (5) It would be good to report the number of mice used for each condition in addition to n=cells. Statistically, it would be preferable not to assume that each cell from the same mouse is an independent measurement and to use a nested ANOVA.

      For electrophysiology, the number of mice used in each experiment was 6 (3 male, 3 female). In the manuscript ‘N’ represents number of mice and ‘n’ represents number of cells. Because of the unpredictability of how many healthy cells can be recorded from one mouse, our data were planned to be collected with n=cells, and are underpowered for a nested ANOVA.

      However, in many cases, rostral and caudal data were collected from the same mice. While we do not have sufficient paired data for each electrophysiological parameter, analyzing one of our main and most important findings with a paired comparison (with biological replicates being mice) shows a statistically significant difference in the inhibitory effect of SNr axon stimulation on firing rate between rostral and caudal glutamatergic neurons (p=0.031, Wilcoxon signed rank test). See Author response image 2.

      Author response image 2.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The study by Fallah et al provides a thorough characterization of the effects of two basal ganglia output pathways on cholinergic, glutamatergic, and GABAergic neurons of the PPN. The authors first found that SNr projections spread over the entire PPN, whereas GPe projections are mostly concentrated in the caudal portion of the nucleus. Then the authors characterized the postsynaptic effects of optogenetically activating these basal ganglia inputs and identified the PPN's cell subtypes using genetically encoded fluorescent reporters. Activation of inputs from the SNr inhibited virtually all PPN neurons. Activation of inputs from the GPe predominantly inhibited glutamatergic neurons in the caudal PPN, and to a lesser extent GABAergic neurons. Finally, the authors tested the effects of activating these inputs on locomotor activity and place preference. SNr activation was found to increase locomotor activity and elicit avoidance of the optogenetic stimulation zone in a real-time place preference task. In contrast, GPe activation reduced locomotion and increased the time in the RTPP stimulation zone.

      Strengths:

      The evidence of functional connectivity of SNr and GPe neurons with cholinergic, glutamatergic, and GABAergic PPN neurons is solid and reveals a prominent influence of the SNr over the entire PPN output. In addition, the evidence of a GPe projection that preferentially innervates the caudal glutamatergic PPN is unexpected and highly relevant for basal ganglia function.

      Opposing effects of two basal ganglia outputs on locomotion and valence through their connectivity with the PPN.

      Overall, these results provide an unprecedented cell-type-specific characterization of the effects of basal ganglia inputs in the PPN and support the well-established notion of a close relationship between the PPN and the basal ganglia.

      We thank the reviewer for their positive comments.

      Weaknesses:

      The behavioral experiments require further analysis as some motor effects could have been averaged out by analyzing long segments.

      We have further analyzed our motor effects and included these analyses in supplemental figure S2 in the revised manuscript.

      Additional controls are needed to rule out a motor effect in the real-time place preference task.

      To address this comment, we analyzed the second day of RTPP, where no stimulation was applied in either chamber. Specifically, we evaluated the time spent in the stimulated chamber during the first minute of the unstimulated RTPP task. We found that the mice that had SNr axon stimulation still avoided the previously stimulated chamber and the mice that had GPe axon stimulation still preferred the previously stimulated chamber. These data have been added to Figure 7 and in the results section lines 564-575.

      Importantly, the location of the stimulation is not reported even though this is critical to interpret the behavioral effects.

      The implant locations were generally over the middle-to-rostral PPN and we will clarify this in the revised manuscript. These locations are shown in figure 7B.

      There are some concerns about the possible recruitment of dopamine neurons in the SNr experiments.

      We have added experiments stimulating the SNc dopaminergic neuron axons in the PPN and found very interesting behavioral effects. These are described in more detail below and in the results lines 595-624. These data are also included in Figure S3.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Locomotor activity should be analyzed as trial averages instead of session averages. The effect of SNr on locomotion might be showing a rebound of activity in cholinergic neurons, which innervate dopamine neurons and induce locomotion. Furthermore, the variability between animals should be reported, Figure 7C doesn't show a standard deviation.

      This is an important point and could reveal different early and late effects of basal ganglia axon stimulation. We have added a time course graph of the trial averages for the distance traveled in the open field with higher temporal resolution (10s vs 1min). This is included in supplemental Figure S2A&B.

      The variability between animals was shown as shaded area, but was too light and transparent so it was difficult to see in Figure 7C. We have changed this shading to error bars for better visibility.

      (2) SNc projects to the PPN. It has recently been shown that PPN neurons respond robustly to dopaminergic activation, including effects on motor activity (Juarez Tello et al., 2024). The transductions shown in Figure S1 clearly cover to entirety of the SNc. Dopamine blockers should be used in the ex vivo experiments to rule out dopaminergic effects.

      This is an important point and one we were particularly interested in as far as the behavioral experiments. We thank the reviewer for bringing this up because it led us to a really interesting result. We have now run an additional experiment using DAT-cre mice and a cre-dependent ChR2 using the same injection site at our constitutive ChR2 experiments. We found that selectively stimulating the SNc dopaminergic axons replicates the increased locomotion at high laser power and replicates the no change in locomotion at low laser power as seen with our constitutive ChR2 experiment. However, the selective dopaminergic axon activation in the PPN is rewarding at both high and low power, while the constitutive ChR2 activation is aversive. We have added these data to supplemental figure S3, and have added text in the results (lines 595624) and discussion (lines 695-734) about this new exciting finding.

      While we can’t exclude the possibility of dopamine influence on the electrophysiology experiments (via changes in input resistance or channel properties), the fast synaptic currents measured are uncharacteristic of inhibitory D2 receptor currents (which would be slow), and are inhibited by the GABAa receptor blocker, GABAzine.

      (3) Activation of glutamatergic neurons in the caudal PPN elicits locomotion while the same stimulation in the rostral PPN terminates locomotion. In line with this, the authors report important differences in glutamatergic neurons in the rostral vs caudal PPN (Fig. 5). For the behavioral experiments, the location of the optic fiber is not reported. This is essential for the interpretation of the behavioral experiments. Based on the recent literature, inhibiting glutamatergic neurons in the rostral and in the caudal PPN will produce opposing effects.

      We absolutely agree the rostral and caudal PPN differences are functionally important. In Figure 7B, we have mapped the location of the optical fiber tip for each experiment. Our implant location was generally in the rostral-middle part of the PPN and we have added this to the methods section of the revised manuscript in lines 887 and 1048. While we did not have many implant locations that were specifically rostral or specifically caudal, we did evaluate the behavioral response for our most rostrally-located implant and our most-caudally located implant in the SN axon stimulation experiment. We found that low-power laser activation of nigral axons in the most rostral implant resulted in increased locomotion but in the most caudal implant resulted in decreased locomotion. This increased locomotion exactly what we would expect when rostral PPN neurons (that normally inhibit movement) are preferentially inhibited, and decreased locomotion is what we would expect when caudal PPN neurons (that normally promote movement) are inhibited. Future experiments using more precise rostral and caudal implant locations will be needed to fully parse out the functional role of rostral vs caudal PPN. See Figure S4 (two green implant sites are circled for one mouse because the implants were bilateral).

      (4) Even though the authors made an effort to dissect out the motor component during the RTPP task, this was not entirely achieved. Low laser power was still able to decrease activity following GPe stimulation, causing the animal to spend more time in the stimulated compartment. It is not clear the reason for using RTPP as opposed to CPP, which will not have the confound of the effects on motor activity. The interpretation of these data is problematic.

      This is an important consideration, and the reviewer is correct that we can’t completely eliminate a motor contribution to our RTPP experiment. We attempted to minimize potential motor confounds by utilizing unilateral stimulation and our supplemental videos show that the mice can escape the stimulated chamber.

      However, to address this comment, we analyzed the second day of RTPP, where no stimulation was applied in either chamber. Specifically, we evaluated the time spent in the stimulated chamber during the first minute of the unstimulated RTPP task. We found that the mice that had SN stimulation still avoided the previously stimulated chamber and the mice that had GPe axon stimulation still preferred the previously stimulated chamber. These data have been added as Figure 7G and in the results section lines 564-575.

      (5) The resting membrane potential for cholinergic, glutamatergic, and GABAergic neurons is not reported.

      Since a majority of PPN neurons are spontaneously active, we have reported the average membrane voltage during the pre-optical stimulation period in supplementary table 1.

      (6) During the RTPP, the animals were stimulated unilaterally with the purpose of reducing the optogenetic effects on locomotion, but no data support this claim. Please report the locomotor measurements during unilateral stimulation.

      To address this comment, we have analyzed the speed of the mouse in each compartment (stimulated vs non-stimulated) during the RTPP task. We found that the mean speed does differ, in the direction expected (i.e., mice are on average slower in the GPe stimulated zone where they spend more time, and mice are on average faster in the SNr stimulated zone where they spend less time). This is expected because when the mouse spends more time in a zone, it is more likely to spend time grooming or staying still, but it could still be evidence of motor response to the stimulation. To evaluate how fast the mouse is able to move with and without unilateral stimulation, we measured maximum speed in the stimulated and unstimulated zone. We found that maximum speed does not differ between stimulated and unstimulated zones in either the SNr or GPe group. See Author response image 3.

      Author response image 3.

      (7) Given the similarity of the parameters evaluated for all three PPN cell types, the results could be presented in a table, it will be easier to summarize.

      This is a good point and we have added supplemental tables 1-4 for key electrophysiological findings.

      (8) The text is repetitive in some parts.

      We have gone through the results to edit out repetitive text. For example, lines 244-260 and 274-287 have been rewritten for clarity and efficiency.

      (9) Lines 609-620: the behavioral effects after SNr stimulation are not mediated by the PPN, please correct.

      We have corrected this.

      (10) The number of patched GABAergic neurons in the caudal PPN is almost double the number of patched neurons in the rostral PPN. This contrasts with the high density of GABAergic neurons in the rostral PPN reported in the literature, and therefore, the probability of recording GABAergic neurons will be much higher in the rostral PPN. Please comment.

      It is true that there are more GABA neurons in the rostral region, but on a sagittal slice, the rostral region occupies a smaller area compared to caudal and there is a notable cluster of GABAergic neurons in the caudal region (Mena-Segovia et al. 2009). The number of visible and healthy cells with obvious fluorescence against background fluorescence in the heavily myelinated tissue of the PPN is unpredictable and it is possible that the dense number of GABA neurons in the rostral region conglomerates the fluorescence of individual cell somas, making it difficult to detect as many rostral neurons. While we did our best to equally patch rostral and caudal neurons based on our best judgment during the experiment, neurons were ultimately designated as ‘rostral’ or ‘caudal’ after post-hoc staining for the cholinergic neurons, as described below.

      (11) Describe how the rostral and caudal PPN regions were defined and how the authors ensured consistency across recordings.

      We have added more details about the definition of rostral vs caudal PPN in to the methods in lines 1042-1053.

      (12) Please report the proportion of GABAergic neurons showing STD vs STP for rostral and caudal PPN. The data in Figure 3 might be averaging out some important differences. Figure 3L suggests some differences in the proportions.

      The variability within the GABAergic population was really interesting and we plan to pursue this in the future. We have defined STD as PPR<0.95 and STP as PPR>1.05 and added the proportions of caudal and rostral GABAergic PPN neurons with each type of short-term synaptic plasticity to lines 253-257.

      (13) Please report whether the mice’s compartment preferences during the habituation were taken into account for the selection of the laser-on compartment.

      Mice were not habituated to the chamber in the unstimulated condition prior to the RTPP experiment. Laser-on side was randomly chosen and counter-balanced between mice. Mice were also randomly assigned to have low laser power RTPP first or high laser power RTPP first. In each case, mice were given an unstimulated 10-minute trial on the day between the first and second RTPP experiment to ‘unlearn’ which side was stimulated and the second RTPP experiment stimulated the opposite chamber compared to the first RTPP experiment. For example, one mouse would have high power stimulation on the striped side on day 1, no stimulation on day 2, and low power stimulation on the spotted side on day 3. This is now explained more thoroughly in lines 564-575 and lines 992-998.

      (14) Some references to figure panels are missing in the text.

      We have carefully reviewed the manuscript to ensure figure panels are referenced in the text.

      (15) The interpretation in lines 724-725 is not supported by the data given that GPe inputs to cholinergic neurons are negligible.

      We have reworded much of the discussion.

      (16) Some parts of the discussion should go into the “ideas and speculation” subsection of the discussion.

      We have rewritten sections of the discussion.

      References:

      Ferreira-Pinto, Manuel J., Harsh Kanodia, Antonio Falasconi, Markus Sigrist, Maria S. Esposito, and Silvia Arber. 2021. “Functional Diversity for Body Actions in the Mesencephalic Locomotor Region.” Cell 184 (17): 4564-4578.e18. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cell.2021.07.002.

      Goñi-Erro, Haizea, Raghavendra Selvan, Vittorio Caggiano, Roberto Leiras, and Ole Kiehn. 2023. “Pedunculopontine Chx10+ Neurons Control Global Motor Arrest in Mice.” Nature Neuroscience 26 (9): 1516–28. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41593-023-01396-3.

      Mena-Segovia, J., B. R. Micklem, R. G. Nair-Roberts, M. A. Ungless, and J. P. Bolam. 2009. “GABAergic Neuron Distribution in the Pedunculopontine Nucleus Defines Functional Subterritories.” The Journal of Comparative Neurology 515 (4): 397–408. https://doi.org/10.1002/cne.22065.

      Steinkellner, Thomas, Ji Hoon Yoo, and Thomas S. Hnasko. 2019. “Differential Expression of VGLUT2 in Mouse Mesopontine Cholinergic Neurons.” eNeuro, July. https://doi.org/10.1523/ENEURO.0161-19.2019.

      Wang, Hui-Ling, and Marisela Morales. 2009. “Pedunculopontine and Laterodorsal Tegmental Nuclei Contain Distinct Populations of Cholinergic, Glutamatergic and GABAergic Neurons in the Rat.” The European Journal of Neuroscience 29 (2): 340–58. https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1460-9568.2008.06576.x.

      Yoo, Ji Hoon, Vivien Zell, Johnathan Wu, Cindy Punta, Nivedita Ramajayam, Xinyi Shen, Lauren Faget, Varoth Lilascharoen, Byung Kook Lim, and Thomas S. Hnasko. 2017. “Activation of Pedunculopontine Glutamate Neurons Is Reinforcing.” The Journal of Neuroscience: The Official Journal of the Society for Neuroscience 37 (1): 38–46. https://doi.org/10.1523/JNEUROSCI.3082-16.2016.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer 1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This paper attempts to measure the complex changes of consciousness in the human brain as a whole. Inspired by the perturbational complexity index (PCI) from classic research, authors introduce simulation PCI (_s_PCI) of a time series of brain activity as a measure of consciousness. They first use large-scale brain network modeling to explore its relationship with the network coupling and input noise. Then the authors verify the measure with empirical data collected in previous research.

      Strengths:

      The conceptual idea of the work is novel. The authors measure the complexity of brain activity from the perspective of dynamical systems. They provide a comparison of the proposed measure with four other indexes. The text of this paper is very concise, supported by experimental data and theoretical model analysis.

      We would like to thank the reviewer for evaluation of our work and the positive feedback. In what follows we would like to clarify the ambiguities in our initial submission, and the respective changes to the manuscript.

      (1) Consciousness is a network phenomenon. The measure defined by the authors is to consider the maximal sPCI across the nodes stimulated. This measure is based on the time series of one node. The measure may be less effective in quantifying the ill relationship between nodes. This may contribute to the less predictive power of anesthesia (Figure 4b).

      Thank you for this comment, consciousness is indeed a network phenomenon. sPCI is in fact measured across the whole network: to compute sPCI we apply PCI to simulated activity of the whole network. The perturbation is applied to individual nodes of network (different node for each trial) and each time, the response to the stimulus is measured through sPCI in the whole network. To make this explicit, the relevant section now reads:

      “In line with the PCI experimental protocol, we sampled from multiple initial conditions and stimulated regions, presenting the maximum sPCI for each regime (i.e., each {G,σ}). For each simulation, we measured the complexity of the activity of the whole network over a 10-second period post-stimulus.”

      (2) One of the focuses of the work is the use of a dynamic model of brain networks. The explanation of the model needs to be in more detail.

      Thank you for your feedback. We expanded the method section.

      (3) The equations should be checked. For example, there should be no max on the left side of the first equation on page 13.

      We thank the reviewer for spotting this typo, and we removed the max on the left side of this equation, and also checked all the other equations for correctness. The equation now reads:

      (4) The quality of the figures should be improved.

      Thank you for your comment. We have made adjustments to several figures and we hope that they are clearer now...

      (5) Figure 4 should be discussed and analyzed more in the text.

      Thank you for pointing this out. We added the following paragraph discussing the figure (now number 5) in the results section:

      “Classification results using a linear SVM are reported in Fig. 5. We report the crossplots of PCI and each of the resting-state metrics for all subjects and conditions in Fig. 5a. Each point corresponds to the calculation of the given metric over the whole recording normalized by its duration. We find that for fluidity (Fig. 5a, third panel), there is a perfect linear separation between Propofol and Xenon anesthesia on the left side and Wakefulness and Ketamine anesthesia on the right side. This corresponds to the classification accuracy result of 100% for the consciousness class in Fig. 5b, which is the same for PCI. As expected, PCI and fluidity behave poorly at classifying the presence of an anesthetic agent due to the confusion induced by Ketamine. However, the size of the functional repertoire performs an almost perfect classification for this grouping. Only one subject under Ketamine has a high functional repertoire (Fig. 5a, left panel), but all other subjects in the anesthesia condition have a size of functional repertoire roughly under 100. Classification accuracies for complexity and GAP at the group level are less performant but are shown for completeness.”

      (6) The usage of the terms PCI and sPCI should be distinguished.

      We would like to thank the reviewer for pointing out this ambiguity. The PCI metric had to be adapted for the synthetic data. We have now further emphasized this in the methods sections – “Perturbational Complexity”.

      Reviewer 2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Breyton and colleagues analysed the emergent dynamics from a neural mass model, characterised the resultant complexity of the dynamics, and then related these signatures of complexity to datasets in which individuals had been anaesthetised with different pharmacological agents. The results provide a coherent explanation for observations associated with different time series metrics, and further help to reinforce the importance of modelling when integrating across scientific studies.

      Strengths:

      (1) The modelling approach was clear, well-reasoned, and explicit, allowing for direct comparison to other work and potential elaboration in future studies through the augmentation with richer neurobiological detail.

      (2) The results serve to provide a potential mechanistic basis for the observation that the Perturbational Complexity Index changes as a function of the consciousness state.

      We would like to thank the reviewer for assessing our work, and the valuable feedback.

      Weaknesses:

      (3) Coactivation cascades were visually identified, rather than observed through an algorithmic lens. Given that there are numerous tools for quantifying the presence/absence of cascades from neuroimaging data, the authors may benefit from formalising this notion.

      Thank you for bringing this to our attention. We added a quantification of the cascades in Fig 2 and 3. We computed the absolute value of the mean signal across sources (following z-scoring) to obtain a cascade profile and calculated the area under the curve as quantification of the overall presence of cascades. As it can be seen in the two figures, the presence of cascades is the highest around the working point. We have also added the precise definition to the methods section, which now reads:

      “Coactivation Cascades

      The profile of cascades over time was computed, first by z-scoring each source activity, and second by averaging the absolute value of the activity across all sources. The quantification of cascades was then obtained by calculating numerically the Area Under the Curve (AUC) of the profile of cascades.”

      (4) It was difficult to tell, graphically, where the model’s operating regime lay. Visual clarity here will greatly benefit the reader.

      Thank you for pointing out this ambiguity, we have marked the working point explicitly in the Figure 3.

      Recommendations For The Authors

      Reviewer 1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) In the method section, the technical details of the other four indexes should be elaborated.

      Thank you for your recommendation, we agree that the description in the submitted manuscript was too brief. We expanded the method section about the functional repertoire and the bursting potential.

      Reviewer 2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) The authors could more clearly label the ”working point” of their parameter space. Perhaps a label/arrow on Figure 2c that directs the readers’ eyes towards the location in state-space that you define as the working point?

      Thank you for pointing out this ambiguity, we updated the figure 3 to mark the working point precisely.

      (2) While ’fluidity’ is quite an evocative term and does a great job of suggesting to the uninitiated reader the character of the time series in question, I wonder whether a more descriptive term might be better suited for this variable, even if as an adjunct to the term, fluidity. In the past, we (and others) have used the term dynamic functional connectivity variability (Mu¨ller et al., 2020 NeuroImage) to refer to this feature, as it links the measure directly to the technique from which it was estimated.

      Thank you for your feedback. You are correct, dynamic functional connectivity variability could have been a wording of choice for some of our results. However the term “fluidity” was chosen to convey a broader theoretical concept linked to dynamical systems but not exclusive to the brain. Here, dynamic functional connectivity variability is merely a measure of the fluidity of the system. We added the following in the method section describing the metrics:

      “[...] Fluidity is related to previously defined metrics such as functional connectivity variability [10] that relied on a non-overlapping windowing procedure. We chose the term fluidity to convey a cocept linked to dynamical systems in general and states exploration. [...]”

      (3) The term ”bursting potential” is also potentially problematic, as ”bursting” refers to a different concept at the cellular level (i.e., multiple action potentials in a short window of time) than it does in the context that the authors are presumably using it here (i.e., the capacity for the dynamics of the population to ”burst” into the fat-tail of their activity distribution). To avoid ambiguity, it could be worth considering altering this terminology, perhaps again by using a term that is descriptive of the technique used to estimate it, rather than the concept that it evokes.

      Thank you for pointing out this ambiguity in the naming of the bursting potential. We have renamed it to “Global Activation Potential (GAP)” as we believe this term is a better description of the metric. We have switched to this term across the whole manuscript.

      (4) There is a range of other modelling studies that have compared brain dynamics in the awake vs. anaesthetised patient. In my opinion, the reader would benefit from the ability to place this work into the broader context created by the literature, particularly as there are subtle (yet potentially important) differences in the models used in each case. Note - as this is a subjective opinion, I don’t view this as a crucial addition to the paper’s potential strength of evidence, though I do believe that it would have a positive effect on its potential impact.

      We thank you for the suggestion. We have modified the before-to-last paragraph of the discussion to bring more context from the literature models of anethesia and wakefulness:

      “Several studies have employed computational modeling approaches to investigate the differences in brain dynamics across states of consciousness. These studies present varying degrees of physiological detail and focus on complementary aspects of unconsciousness. They start from simple abstract models (Ising model) addressing for example the increased correlation between stuctural and functional connectivity in aneshesia [15], or oscillator-based models (Hopf model) capturing a brain state dependent response to simulated perturbation [4]. More neurobiologically realistic models (Dynamic Mean Field) have also been used to combine multimodal imaging data together with receptor density maps to address the macroscopic effects of general aneshesia and their relationship to spatially heterogeneous properties of the neuronal populations [8]. Similarly, using anatomically constrained parameters for brain regions has already been shown to increase the predictive value of brain network models [6, 18]. Furthermore, employing biophysically grounded mean-field and spiking neuron models (AdEx) allows addressing phenomena propagating in effect across multiple scales of description such as the molecular effects of anesthetics targeting specific receptor types [12]. Related work has shown that adaptation successfully reproduces dynamical regimes coherent with NREM and wakefulness [3] with corresponding realistic PCI values Goldman2021comprehensive. Here, we don’t address these biological questions but rather give a proof of concept that large-scale brain models can help understand the dynamics related to brain function. We used a model derived from QIF neurons Montbrio2015Macroscopic that lacks biological parameters such as ion concentration or synaptic adaptation. Nevertheless, we demonstrate that even the symmetry breaking caused by the connectome is sufficient for setting the global working point of the brain, which then links the brain’s capacity for generating complex behavior in the different paradigms, that is, rest and stimulation.”

      (5) I saw the label ”digital brain twin” in the abstract but then did not find a location in the main text/methods wherein this aspect of the modelling was explained.

      Thank you for pointing out this discrepancy, we have removed the term “digital brain twin” and replaced it by “whole-brain model” everywhere.

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors investigate the role of HSPA2 during mouse preimplantation development. Knocking down HSPA2 in zygotes, the authors describe lower chances of developing into blastocysts, which show a reduced number of inner cell mass cells. They find that HSPA2 mRNA and protein levels show some heterogeneity among blastomeres at the 4-cell stage and propose that HSPA2 could contribute to skewing their relative contribution to embryonic lineages. To test this, the authors try to reduce HSPA2 expression in one of the 2-cell stage blastomere and propose that it biases their contribution to towards extra-embryonic lineages. To explain this, the authors propose that HSPA2 would interact with CARM1, which controls chromatin accessibility around genes regulating differentiation into embryonic lineage.

      Strengths:

      (1) The study offers simple and straightforward experiments with large sample sizes.

      Thanks for your kind recognition.

      (2) Unlike most studies in the field, this research often relies on both mRNA and protein levels to analyses gene expression and differentiation.

      Thanks for your kind recognition.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Image and statistical analyses are not well described.

      Thanks for your advisable comment. We redescribe the image and statistical analyses in our revised version (line 255-257).

      (2) The functionality of the overexpression construct is not validated.

      Thanks for your kind suggestion. We validate the functionality of the overexpression construct in our revised version (Figure S3).

      (3) Tracking of KD cells in embryos injected at the 2-cell stage with GFP is unclear.

      Thanks for your kind suggestion. We randomly co-injected green fluorescent protein (Gfp) mRNA as a linage tracer with either Hspa2-siRNA or NC-FAM into one of the 2 -cell, and then monitored embryo development to the blastocyst stage (line 342-344).

      (4) A key rationale of the study relies on measuring small differences in the levels of mRNA and proteins using semi-quantitative methods to compare blastomeres. As such, it is not possible to know whether those subtle differences are biologically meaningful. For example, the lowest HSPA2 level of the embryo with the highest level is much higher than the top cell from the embryo with the lowest level. What does this level mean then? Does this mean that some blastomeres grafted from strong embryos would systematically outcompete all other blastomeres from weaker embryos? That would be very surprising. I think the authors should be more careful and consider the lack of quantitative power of their approach before reaching firm conclusions. Although to be fair, the authors only follow a long trend of studies with the same intrinsic flaw of this approach.

      Thanks for your advisable comment. Indeed, despite the approach drew on previous research (Zhou Cell 2018), we were clearly aware that this approach can only reflect relative comparisons. This means that the relative difference among the blastomeres from the same embryo were detected and compared. We did not compare the absolute levels of mRNA between different embryos. We also offered simple and straightforward experiments with large sample sizes to confirm this conclusion.

      (5) Some of the analyses on immunostaining do not take into account that this technique only allows for semi-quantitative measurements and comparisons.

      a) Some of the microscopy images are shown with an incorrect look-up table.

      b) Some of the schematics are incorrect and misleading.

      Thanks for your advisable comment. We revised microscopy images and schematics in our revised version.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, Gao et al. use RNA-seq to identify Hspa2 as one of the earliest transcripts heterogeneously distributed between blastomeres. Functional studies are performed using siRNA knockdown showing Hspa2 may bias cells toward the ICM lineage via interaction with the known methyltransferase CARM1.

      Strengths:

      This study tackles an important question regarding the origins of the first cell fate decision in the preimplantation embryo. It provides novelty in its identification of Hspa2 as a heterogeneous transcript in the early embryo and proposes a plausible mechanism showing interactions with Carm1. Multiple approaches are used to validate their functional studies (FISH, WB, development rates, proteomics). Given only 4 other transcripts/RNA have been identified at or before the 4-cell stage (LincGET, CARM1, PRDM14, HMGA1), this would be an important addition to our understanding of how TE vs ICM fate is established.

      Thanks for your kind recognition.

      The RNA-seq results leading the authors to focus on Hspa2 are not included in the manuscript. This dataset would serve as an important resource but is neither included nor discussed. Nor is it mentioned whether Hspa2 was identified in prior RNA-seq embryos studies (for example Deng Science 2014).

      Thanks for your advisable comment. To identify genes that show a significantly high variability across blastomeres in the same embryo, we regressed out the embryo effect by established a new method, which will be published and uploaded to the database in the future. Thus, the RNA-seq results leading the we focus on Hspa2 are not included in the manuscript.   

      In addition, the functional studies are centered on Hspa2 knockdown at the zygote (1-cell) stage, which would largely target maternal transcript. Given the proposed mechanism relies on Hspa2 heterogeneity post-ZGA (late 2-cell stage), the knockdown studies don't necessarily test this and thus don't provide direct support to the authors' conclusions. The relevance of the study would be improved if the authors could show that zygotic knockdown leads to symmetric Hspa2 levels at the late 2-cell and/or 4-cell stage. It may be possible that zygotic knockdown leads to lower global Hspa2 levels, but that asymmetry is still generated at the 4-cell stage.

      Thanks for your advisable comment. We showed that the Hspa2 levels at the late 2-cell and 4cell stage after zygotic knockdown in our revised version (Figure S1 G-H, line 450-452).

      Furthermore, the authors show that Hspa2 knockdown at the 1-cell stage lowers total Carm1 levels at the 4-cell stage. However, it is unclear how total abundance within the embryo alters lineage specification within blastomeres. The authors go on to propose a plausible mechanism involving Hspa2 and Carm1 interaction, but do not discuss how expression levels may be involved.

      Thanks for your advisable comment. Previous research suggests that heterogeneous activity of the methyltransferase CARM1 results in differential methylation of histone H3R26 to modulate establishment of lineage specification (Zernicka-Goetz Cell 2018). Thus, we didn't discuss the total abundance within the embryo alters lineage specification.

      Recommendations for the authors:  

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Major issue with analyses:

      Image analysis needs to be much better explained than simply saying that ImageJ was used. Where are cells measured (at their equatorial plane? What is the size of the ROI?)? Ideally, the ROI and/or raw measurements should be provided.

      Thanks for your advisable comment. We redescribe the Image analysis in our revised version (line 187-194). 

      What are the objective criteria determining whether a cell is counted as GFP positive, CDX2 positive, or OCT4 positive? This is very unclear and key to the interpretation of many experiments.

      Thanks for your advisable comment. We think that the cell containing fluorescence signals above background noise were counted positive.

      Statistical analyses mention ANOVA in the methods but the student's t-test in the figure legend. Which is which? Most data are heavily normalized, which would unlikely fit the description for Student's t-test analyses.

      Thanks for your advisable comment. We redescribe the statistical analyses in our materials and methods (line 253-260).

      Figure 5H describes a relative fluorescence intensity with control at 1. The legend describes a normalization to "DNA" (I guess the authors meant DAPI), which is unlikely to give 1. This suggests that additional normalization was done and is not described. Is that the case? Also, since the authors propose that HSPA2 would control Histone modification and chromatin packing, I do not think that using DAPI is an appropriate way of normalizing the fluorescence signal.

      Thanks for your advisable comment. We replaced DNA with DAPI in our revised version. Based on previous studies, we adopted DAPI as a normalized fluorescence signal (Zhou Cell 2018, Zernicka-Goetz Cell 2018).

      Figure 1E shows data normalized to the lowest level while Figure 1H is normalized to the highest level. A consistent representation would be welcome.

      Thanks for your advisable comment. We revised the Figure 1H in our revised version.

      Is Figure 1C showing a t-test between correlations?

      Yes, Figure 1C shows the t-test between correlation.

      (2) Major issue with the interpretation of semi-quantitative methods and measurements:

      qPCR, WB, immunostaining are all semi-quantitative methods that require some kind of normalization due to non-linear bias in the way the molecules are picked up. Such normalization makes it difficult to know whether a detectable difference is meaningful biologically speaking i.e. if a difference of 1 CT between blastomeres can be detected after qPCR, is it meaningful? If that were the case, then embryos with lower CT than others (Figure 1D) would not be able to develop into blastocyst, like siRNA injected embryos, or grafting a blastomere with a high CT onto an embryo with low CT would lead to the systematic differentiation of these strong blastomeres into ICM.

      Thanks for your advisable comment. The CT values represent the relative mRNA levels of Hspa2 between blastomeres, and the higher CT value represents the lower expression of Hspa2 at mRNA level. Figure 1D shows the Hspa2 mRNA levels between blastomeres. The blastomere with lowlevel expression of the Hspa2 mRNA is not bias an ICM fates.  

      The same goes for fluorescence analyses (Figure 1F). Can the authors also provide the measurements for DAPI as they did for HSPA2? I am sure that with enough measurements, DAPI is variable enough to give a statistical difference among blastomeres with questionable biological meaning.

      I think the reasoning used here (unfortunately following the reasoning that has been used in a series of studies by other groups) of ranking blastomeres after semi-quantitative measurement is fundamentally flawed.

      Thanks for your advisable comment. The DAPI was determined by the maximal area using a custom Python script. Based on previous studies, we adopted DAPI as a normalized fluorescence signal (Zhou Cell 2018). This approach is to normalize embryo-to-embryo variance from the technical reason.

      (3) Major issue with overexpression experiment:

      While the siRNA experiment is partially validated by qPCR and WB measurements of HSPA2 after KD, the overexpression experiment is not. Do the authors have any evidence that the construct they use is produced into protein and functional? Can the authors check by WB? Can the authors rescue the siRNA with their overexpression?

      Thanks for your advisable comment. We verified the overexpression experiment by WB in in our revised version (Figure S3, line 360-361). Considering that siRNA degrades mRNA and prevents the mRNA translation process, we did not co-inject the siRNA with their overexpression.

      The lack of effect of HSPA2 overexpression on blastocyst formation is difficult to reconcile with the interpretation from the authors that levels of HSPA2 bias lineages.

      Have the authors tried lower concentrations? Have the authors tried FISH on their half-injected 2cell embryos? Of course, if the antibody against HSPA2 would work with immunostaining, that would be ideal.

      Thanks for your advisable comment. We chose the concentrations for our study based on previous research (Zernicka-Goetz Cell 2016). To verified Hspa2 was successfully inject into one blastomere at the 2-cell stage, we observed green fluorescence after co-injected GFP mRNA with either siRNA or NC-FAM into one blastomere of the two-cell embryos. Thus, we didn't try FISH on half-injected 2-cell embryos. We tried to perform immunostaining experiments with various HSPA2 antibodies (Proteintech: 12797-1-AP, Abcam: ab108416) and no good results were achieved.

      Author response image 1.

      (4) Major issue with tracking of injected cells:

      It is unclear what counts as a GFP-positive cell. In Figure 3D, most cells appear to have the same level of GFP.

      Thanks for your advisable comment. The cell containing green fluorescence signals above background noise were counted GFP-positive in Figure 3D. Most cells seem to have the same level of GFP because they are daughter cells of the blastomeres injected with GFP.

      In the images of GFP-expressing cells used to track the control of KD cells shown in Figure 3A, it seems that the control embryos have mostly GFP cells in the ICM. Is that the case, or just a bad example?

      Thanks for your advisable comment. The green fluorescent signals in Figure 3A represented OCT4 protein, an ICM marker.

      Can the authors do FISH against HSPA2 and visualize their GFP cells to validate the heterogeneous expression in situ?

      Thanks for your advisable comment. We have verified the heterogeneous expression of HSPA2 in Figure1.

      (5) Issue with fluorescent images:

      Many images are shown with inappropriate look-up tables with saturated DAPI, OCT4, CDX2, and FISH. This raises the doubt that analyses were made on saturated images, which would be incorrect.

      The LUT of Figure 5H should be adjusted similarly between the control and siRNA.

      Thanks for your advisable comment. We revised some images which showed inappropriate lookup tables in our revised version. The LUT of Figure 5H had been adjusted between the control and siRNA. 

      (6) Issue with schematics:

      Schematics of blastomere isolation grown into blastocyst-like structures are misleading since the final blastocyst-like structure should not have a zona pellucida and should have fewer cells than regular blastocysts.

      Thanks for your advisable comment. We revised schematics of blastomere grown into morula in our revised version (Figure 1A and Figure S1A).

      The summary schematics in the final figure should not state HSPA2 -/- since experiments in the study did not use KO but KD.

      Thanks for your advisable comment. We revised the summary schematics in our revised version.

      The blastocysts are the same sizes as the cleavage stage or morula embryos which implies that cells lose volume to the lumen, which is not the case.

      Thanks for your advisable comment. We revised the schematics in our revised version.

      (7) Issue with data presentation:

      In the tables within the figures, the number of decimals given should be the same for the mean and SE (one decimal should be more than enough).

      Thanks for your advisable comment. We revised the figure 2H in our revised version.

      The comparison of cell number and distribution within embryos (e.g. Figure 2B) would be best represented by a correlation analysis of TE vs ICM cells.

      Thanks for your advisable comment. We add the figure of a correlation analysis of TE vs ICM cells in our revised version (Figure 3B).

      The docking simulations are described in the main text as "experiments".

      Thanks for your advisable comment. We redescribed the docking simulations in our revised version.

      (8) Issue with data interpretation:

      The reduced number of ICM cells is interpreted as a slowed-down cell cycle. This could also be explained by failed cytokinesis and the generation of binucleated or polyploid cells. Have the authors checked for that? For example, by looking at their DAPI staining. 

      Thanks for your advisable comment. Our RNA-seq results revealed that the differentially expressed genes (DEGs) at blastocyst stage with HSPA2 knocking down are closely related to negative regulation of cell cycle, G1/S transition of mitotic cell cycle, mitotic cell cycle phase transition and regulation of mitotic cell cycle phase transition. Additionally, the previous study demonstrated that knockdown of HSPA2 reduced cell proliferation and led to G1/S phase cell cycle arrest (Hu Ann Transl Med 2019). Additionally, the lower cell number in ICM may also associated with failed cytokinesis and the generation of binucleated or polyploid cells. Thus, we guessed that HSPA2 has a role in ICM lineage establishment, although half of the ICM cells were able to survive with HSPA2 deficiency (line 463-472).

      It is unclear to me why reduced ICM should lead to fewer blastocysts. Blastocysts should be able to form as long as their TE is fine. In Figure 2G, embryos seem to be cultured in close proximity, which is fine if they are healthy but not if some of the embryos start dying and releasing toxic compounds (e.g. ROS). Have the authors tried removing the dying KD embryos to see if the development of the remaining embryos would improve?

      Thanks for your advisable comment. We think HSPA2 may affect blastocyst development by affecting other signaling pathways. And, the GO enriched terms was closely related to blastocyst development (Figure 2E). There was no significant difference in morula formation rate between Hspa2-KD group and NC group, thus the assumption that the toxic compounds released by some of the embryos that lead to downregulation of blastocyst rate may not be correct. Indeed, the rate of blastocyst formation in Hspa2-KD embryos was reduced significantly lower when few embryos was cultured separately. In addition, we discussed the possibility that the lower cell number in ICM may also associated with failed cytokinesis and the generation of binucleated or polyploid cells.

      Author response image 2.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      One of the significant findings in the paper is the discovery portion where Hspa2 is identified as a heterogeneous transcript. To improve the logic and impact of the manuscript, it may benefit from reorganizing some of the figures and text. For example:

      (1) The paragraph in the introduction (Lines 56-68) should be moved to the discussion as the Hspa2 reveal should be in section 3.1, not prior to the RNA-seq results presented in Figure 1.

      Thanks for your advisable comment. We think it is more logical that HSPA2 needs to be introduced in the introduction.

      (2) Add text at the beginning of Section 3.1 to describe the rationale and results for the RNAseq. It would help the readers if the authors clearly stated why they chose the 4-cell stage.

      Thanks for your advisable comment. We explain why we chose the 4-cell stage in our revised version (line 272-273).

      (3) As this is the first time Hspa2 is identified, consider moving Figure S1C to the main figure to show expression throughout development.

      Thanks for your advisable comment. We moved Figure S1C to the main figure in our revised version (line 286-291).

      (4) Figure 1C: the correlation between Hspa2 and ICM markers would be strengthened if additional transcripts were used (Oct4, Sox2, Sox21). The graph in 1C would also be more informative if represented as a scatter plot with correlation coefficients (Nanog log2TPM vs Hspa2 log2TPM), rather than bar graphs.

      Thanks for your advisable comment. We chose Nanog as the correlation between Hspa2 and Nanog, a ICM markers, was showing the strongest correlation in result. And, the figure 1C shows the stronger positive correlation between Nanog and Hspa2 in gene expression than random gene pairs (n=100, n means the number of random gene pairs). Thus, the figure 1C with bar graphs is easier to understand.

      (5) Figure 1D: how were individual blastomeres grouped into B1-4? Individually run and then pooled based on relative expression?

      Thanks for your advisable comment. Blastomeres are named B1 to B4 according to increasing Hspa2 concentration in figure 1E.

      (6) Figures 1F, 1I, 5H: the DAPI channel appears to be saturated, but is used to normalize fluorescence intensity and may incorrectly account for light scattering within the embryo. Please clarify by adding more details regarding image analysis. Were partial stacks through the nucleus used for analysis, or max projections? Graph axes should be "relative fluorescence intensity."

      Thanks for your advisable comment. We added the details of fluorescence images analysis. The graph axes had revised in our revised version.

      (7) Line 278: the results in Figure S1C would benefit from more text regarding expression patterns throughout development. The maternal transcript appears to have a sharp downregulation by the early 2-cell stage, and is then upregulated coinciding with ZGA.

      Thanks for your advisable comment. We added more describe of the Figure in main text (LINE 285-290).

      (8) For the analyses in Figure 2 I-J and 2K-L, were arrested embryos excluded from analysis? This is an important detail as including arrested embryos would significantly bias the RNA-seq results. 

      Thanks for your advisable comment. The arrested embryos were excluded in Figure 2 I-J and 2K-L.

      (9) Figures 2G-H would be aided by converting the table in 2H to a bar graph and adding development rates for all stages (2-, 4-, 8-, morula, and blast). This would also show when an arrest occurs.

      Thanks for your advisable comment. We converted the table in 2H to a bar graph.

      (10) Blast rates are represented with too many significant digits (Figures 2H, 4B). They should only be reported to the closest ones given the unit of measure (number of blasts divided by number of zygotes). For instance, a blast rate of 81.63 {plus minus} 2.000 reflects excessive precision that is not measured in the data, it should rather read 82 {plus minus} 2%. This is also true for % cells (Figures 3E, 4H).

      Thanks for your advisable comment. Values were rounded down to the one decimal place (rounded down).

      (11) The clarity and impact of Figure 3A and 3D would benefit from 2D slices through the ICM. 

      Thanks for your advisable comment. In order to get more comprehensive understanding of the 3D structure of blastocyst of Figure 3A and 3D, we did not choose 2D slices.

      (12) To improve clarity and logic, separate the 1-cell and 2-cell knockdown experiments in the text and figures:

      a) 1-cell knockdown with RNA-seq results (Fig 2A-F).

      b) 1-cell knockdown showing less ICM/pluripotency markers in (combine Figures 2G-M and Figures 3A-B; "new Fig 3").

      c) 2-cell knockdown tracing lineage (Figures 2D-E; "new Fig 4").

      The new Figures 3 and 4 should mirror one another (i.e. for each knockdown experiment, development rates and cell counts should be included). For the 2-cell knockdown (Figures 2 D-E), what were the developmental rates (8-cell, morula, blast)?

      Thanks for your advisable comment. However, in order to the overall logical of the article, we do not separate the 1-cell and 2-cell knockdown experiments in the text and figures. And, we added the developmental rates (8-cell, morula, blast) of 2-cell knockdown group in our revised version (Figure S2).

      For the overexpression experiment (Figure 4), why were injections performed at the zygote stage versus the 2-cell stage? Given the significant downregulation of maternal transcript demonstrated in Figure S1C, it seems plausible that the injected RNA was also downregulated.

      Thanks for your advisable comment. For the overexpression experiment, we first chose to inject Hspa2 mRNA at the zygote stage and found that the overexpression of Hspa2 does not induce blastomere cells to bias an ICM fate. The qRT-PCR results indicated that the expression level of Hspa2 in overexpression group was significantly increased compared with normal group at 4cell and blastocyst stage (Figure 4C, 4D).  In addition, there is no guarantee that an equal amount of Hspa2 mRNA be injected into each blastomere in 2-cell stage. Thus, we did not microinject Hspa2 mRNA into the 2-cell stage.

      The 3.5 subheading overstates the results as the Hspa2-Carm1 interaction is not linked to lineage segregation. For example, a more specific subtitle might be, "Hspa2 interacts with Carm1 and alters H3R26me2 levels."

      Thanks for your advisable comment. We revised the subtitle in our revised version (line 376).

      Figures 5B-C and 5D-E. The qRT-PCR and WB analysis of knockdown blasts shows a correlation between Hspa2 downregulation and Carm1 downregulation. However, if the proposed mechanism is Hspa2 binding to Carm1 to mediate downstream methylation, why would it be expected to alter transcript levels at the 4-cell or blast stage? Please add further details and discussion in the results and discussion sections.

      Thanks for your advisable comment. The reason we chose to work at the 4-cell stage is because previous studies on CARM1 have focused on the 4-cell stage (Zernicka-Goetz Cell 2018,2016). 

      In the discussion, the statement in Lines 430-431 is an overinterpretation: "the heterogeneity of HSPA2... acts as an upstream factor to drive [the] first cell-fate decision." The knockdown experiments don't alter heterogeneity per se, but total abundance. Furthermore, the results do not show that heterogeneity drives heterogeneity in H3R26me2 patterns, for example.

      Thanks for your advisable comment. We redescribe the relevant statement in the discussion.

      More needs to be said regarding the ICM cells that persisted in the 1-cell KD experiment (Fig 3B). Lines 449-450 point out this result, but do not propose any plausible explanations. For instance, ICM cells may still form due to the incomplete knockdown achieved or the possibility that redundant pathways exist.

      Thanks for your advisable comment. We redescribe the relevant statement in our revised version (line 468-473).

      The 5th paragraph of the discussion seems incomplete. The authors point out a possible link between Hspa2 and Hippo and Wnt signaling pathways, but need to expand their discussion on how this may act as an additional mechanism incorporating Hspa2 with lineage segregation.

      Thanks for your advisable comment. We redescribe the 5th paragraph of the discussion (line 483-494).

      Statistics: all comparisons with greater than 2 groups should be performed with a one-way ANOVA and multiple comparisons, rather than Student's t-test (Figures 1B, 1D, 1E, 1F).

      All figure legends lack statistical test details.

      Thanks for your advisable comment. All figure legends added statistical test details in statistical analysis.

      Minor comments:

      In all graphs, individual blastomere expression levels should be represented as boxwhisker/bar/scatter/violin plots since the comparison is groups rather than time points (i.e. symbols should not be connected with a line in Figures 1B, 1D, 1F-G, 1I, S1D, S1F).

      Thanks for your advisable comment. Each colored line represents a single cell, and the dots of the same color represent the blastomere of the same cell. Thus, we use a line representation individual blastomere.

      For all fluorescent images, having two representative images may be confusing for the reader. Figures may be improved by just including one representative image for each stage/treatment (Figures 1F, 1I, S1F, 3A, 3D, 4E, 4G).

      Thanks for your advisable comment. The figures just including one representative image for each stage in our revised version. In addition, two representative images from each group were shown for each treatment (Figures 3A, 3D, 4E, 4G).

      The manuscript would be improved with thorough grammar and typo editing.

      For example:

      (1) Lines 18, 73, the wording is confusing, consider: "knockdown of Hspa2 in one of the two-cell blastomeres biased its progeny towards the trophectoderm lineage.".

      (2) Line 23, overstatement. Consider: "we demonstrated that HSPA2 levels correlate with ICMassociated genes and that it interacts with the CARM1.".

      (3) Line 25 confusing wording, "via the execution of commitment and differentiation phases.".

      (4) Line 37, replace "that" with "of;" replace "cell-fate decisions" with "cell-fate decision".

      (5) Line 40: needs space before (CARM1).

      (6) Line 43: the wording is confusing, consider "can result in higher expression levels of".

      (7) Line 45: wording, consider "Recent [studies have] further suggested".

      (8) Line 70: plurality, consider "analyzed gene expression pattern".

      (9) Line 73 typo: "prevents its".

      (10) Line 76-77 wording, consider "Hspa2 expression patterns can bias cell fate in the mouse embryo".

      (11) Line 276: remove "in whole embryos," since MII eggs are not embryos.

      (12) Line 617 "There" should be "Three".

      (13) Axis label in Fig 3b "Totle" should be "Total".

      (14) Lines 417, 419 missing spaces.

      (15) Line 448 missing word, "interfering [with] the cell cycle".

      (16) Line 462 incorrect word, "[a]polar cells being specified as ICM".

      (17) Line 469 incorrect plural, "cell differentiation".

      Thanks for your advisable comment. We revised the whole manuscript carefully according to the reviewers' suggestions.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer #1:

      Summary:

      The manuscript by Zhang et al describes the use of a protein language model (pLM) to analyse disordered regions in proteins, with a focus on those that may be important in biological phase separation. While the paper is relatively easy to read overall, my main comment is that the authors could perhaps make it clearer which observations are new, and which support previous work using related approaches. Further, while the link to phase separation is interesting, it is not completely clear which data supports the statements made, and this could also be made clearer.

      We thank the reviewer for their thoughtful evaluation of our manuscript and for the supportive comments. As outlined in the responses below, we have made substantial revisions to clarify the novel observations presented in our study and to strengthen the connection between sequence conservation and phase separation.

      Comment 1: With respect to putting the work in a better context of what has previously been done before, this is not to say that there is not new information in it, but what the authors do is somewhat closely related to work by others. I think it would be useful to make those links more directly.

      We have addressed the specific comments as outlined below.

      Comment 1a: Alderson et al (reference 71) analysed in detail the conservation of IDRs (via pLDDT, which is itself related to conservation) to show, for example, that conserved residues fold upon binding. This analysis is very similar to the analysis used in the current study (using ESM2 as a different measure of conservation). Thus, the result that "Given that low ESM2 scores generally reflect mutational constraint in folded proteins, the presence of region a among disordered residues suggests that certain disordered amino acids are evolutionarily conserved and likely functionally significant" is in some ways very similar to the results of that (Alderson et al) paper .

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. However, we would like to clarify that our findings show subtle but important differences from those reported by Alderson et al. Specifically, Alderson et al. used AlphaFold2 predictions to identify IDRs that undergo disorder-to-order transitions, which the authors termed as conditionally folded IDRs. These regions could potentially be functionally important, assuming that function of IDRs necessitate folding.

      We argue, however, that, the validity of this structure-function relationship for IDRs remains to be tested. In our opinion, The most direct way to evaluate the functional significance is via evaluating the evolutionary conservation.

      As shown in Author response image 1, the correlation between pLDDT scores and the conservation score, while noticable, is significantly weaker than that between the ESM2 score and the conservation score.

      Author response image 1.

      Comparison of the correlation between AlphaFold2 pLDDT scores and conservation scores with the correlation between ESM2 scores and conservation scores. Calculations were performed using proteins in the MLO-hProt dataset. (A) Correlation between the mean AlphaFold2 pLDDT scores and conservation scores for various amino acids. Pearson correlation coefficients (r) are indicated in the figure legends. The four panels on the right present analogous correlation plots for amino acids grouped by structural order, as defined by their pLDDT scores. (B) Similar as in part A but for ESM2 scores.

      Therefore, we believe that ESM2 score is a better indicator than AlphaFold2 pLDDT score for functional relevance.

      Furthermore, for the human IDRs, we explicitly selected amino acids with pLDDT scores ≤ 70.

      These would be classified as structureless, disordered amino acids, according to the study by Alderson et al. Nevertheless, as shown in Figures 2 and 3 of the main text, our analyses still identifies conserved regions. Therefore, these regions may function via distinct mechanisms than the disorder to order transition.

      We now discuss the novelty of our work in the context of existing studies in the newly added Conclusions and Discussion: Related Work, as quoted below.

      “Numerous studies have sought to identify functionally relevant amino acid groups within IDRs [cite]. For instance, using multiple sequence alignment, several groups have identified evolutionarily conserved residues that contribute to phase separation [cite]. Alderson et al. employed AlphaFold2 to detect disordered regions with a propensity to adopt structured conformations, suggesting potential functional relevance [alderson et al].

      In contrast, our approach based on ESM2 is more direct: it identifies conserved residues without relying on alignment or presupposing that functional significance requires folding into stable 3D structures. Notably, many of the conserved residues identified in our analysis exhibit low pLDDT scores (Figure 2), implying potential functional roles independent of stable conformations.”

      Comment 1b: Dasmeh et al, Lu et al and Ho & Huang analysed conservation in IDRs, including aromatic residues and their role in phase separation.

      We thank the reviewer for bringing these works to our attention! We now explicitly discuss these studies in both the Discussion section as mentioned above and in the Introduction as quoted below.

      “Evolutionary analysis of IDRs is challenging due to difficulties in sequence alignment [cite], though several studies have attempted alignment of disordered proteins with promising results [Dasmeh et al, Lu et al and Ho & Huang].”

      Comment 1c: A number of groups have performed proteomewide saturation scans using pLMs, including variants of the ESM family, including Meier (reference 89, but cited about something else) and Cagiada et al (https://doi.org/10.1101/2024.05.21.595203) that analysed variant effects in IDRs using a pLM. Thus, I think statements such as "their applicability to studying the fitness and evolutionary pressures on IDRs has yet to be established" should possibly be qualified.

      We added a new paragraph in the Introduction to discuss the application of protein language models to IDRs and cited the suggested references.

      “While protein language models have been widely applied to structured proteins [cite], it is important to emphasize that these models themselves are not inherently biased toward folded domains. For example, the Evolutionary Scale Model (ESM2) [cite] is trained as a probabilistic language model on raw protein sequences, without incorporating any structural or functional annotations. Its unsupervised learning paradigm enables ESM2 to capture statistical patterns of residue usage and evolutionary constraints without relying on explicit structural information. Thus, the success of ESM2 in modeling the mutational landscapes of folded proteins [cite] reflects the model’s ability to learn sequence-level constraints imposed by natural selection — a property that is equally applicable to IDRs if those regions are also under functional selection. Indeed, protein language models are increasingly been used to analyze variant effects in IDRs [cite].”

      Comment 2: On page 4, the authors write, "The conserved residues are primarily located in regions associated with phase separation." These results are presented as a central part of the work, but it is not completely clear what the evidence is.

      We thank the reviewer this insightful comment. We realized that our wording is not as precise as we should have been. We meant to state that the regions associated with phase separation are significantly enriched in these conserved residues. This is a significant finding and indicates that phase separation could be a source of evolutionary pressure in dictating IDP sequence conservation. However, we do not intend to suggest that phase separation is the only evolutionary pressure.

      The sentence has been revised to

      “Notably, regions associated with phase separation are significantly enriched in these conserved residues.”

      We further replaced the section title "Conserved, Disordered Residues Localize in Regions Driving Phase Separation" with "Regions Driving Phase Separation Are Enriched with Conserved, Disordered Residues" to further clarify our findings and avoid overinterpretation.

      Finally, we revised the following sentence in the discussion

      “Notably, these conserved, disordered residues are predominantly located in regions actively involved in phase separation, contributing to the formation of membraneless organelles.”

      to

      “Notably, regions actively involved in phase separation are enriched with these conserved, disordered residues, supporting their potential role in the formation of membraneless organelles.”

      The submitted manuscript provides clear evidence supporting the enrichment of conserved residues in MLO-driving IDRs. Specifically, Figures 4A and 4C demonstrate that these IDRs exhibit a substantially higher fraction of conserved residues compared to other IDRs involved in phase separation.

      In this analysis, the nMLO-hIDR group serves as a baseline, representing the distribution of conservation in disordered regions lacking MLO-related functions. In contrast, IDRs from MLOassociated groups show a pronounced lower shift in their median and interquartile ranges, indicating stronger evolutionary constraints. Within the dMLO cohort, the degree of conservation follows a distinct gradient: driving residues exhibit the highest levels of conservation, followed by participant residues, with non-participant residues showing values closer to the nMLO baseline. This pattern reflects the relative functional importance of each group in phase separation, with conservation levels corresponding to their roles in MLO scaffolding.

      To further support this, we computed, for each IDR, the fraction of conserved amino acids. As shown in Figure S11B, for IDRs that actively contribute to phase separation, the fraction is indeed higher than those not involved in phase separation. This analysis is now included in SI.

      During the revision, we explicitly evaluated whether conserved residues are preferentially located in regions associated with phase separation. To this end, for each protein in the MLO-hProt dataset, we calculated the probability p of finding conserved residues within regions contributing to phase separation. These regions include both "driving" and "participating" segments as defined in Figure 4 of the main text.

      Figure S11A presents the distribution of p across all proteins. For comparison, we also include the distribution of 1− p, representing the probability of finding conserved residues in regions not associated with phase separation. On average, p exceeds 0.5, suggesting a tendency for conserved residues to be more frequently located in phase-separating regions. However, the difference between the two distributions is not statistically significant. This result may be due to the generally low density of conserved residues in IDRs, which makes the estimation of p challenging for individual proteins. Additionally, some conserved sites may be involved in functions unrelated to phase separation.

      We added the following text to the Discussion section of the main text.

      “We emphasize that the results presented in Figure 4 do not directly demonstrate that conserved residues are preferentially located in regions associated with phase separation. Although these regions are more enriched in conserved amino acids, their total sequence length can be smaller than that of non-phase-separating regions. As a result, the absolute number of conserved residues may still be higher outside phase-separating regions. To quantitatively assess this, we calculated, for each protein in the MLO-hProt dataset, the probability p of finding conserved residues within regions contributing to phase separation. These regions include both "driving" and "participating" segments, as defined in Figure 4 of the main text. Figure S11 shows the distribution of p across all proteins. For comparison, we also present the distribution of 1− p, which reflects the probability of finding conserved residues in non-phase-separating regions. While the average value of p exceeds 0.5, indicating a trend toward conserved residues being more frequently located in phase-separating regions, the difference between the two distributions is not statistically significant. Future studies with expanded datasets may be necessary to clarify this trend.”

      Comment 3: It would be useful with an assessment of what controls the authors used to assess whether there are folded domains within their set of IDRs.

      We acknowledge that our previous labeling may have caused some confusion. Protein sequences used in Figures 2 and 3 include both folded and disordered domains. Results presented in these figures were constructed using full-length protein sequences to highlight the similarities and differences in ESM2 scores between folded and disordered domains.

      In contrast, the analyses presented in Figures 4 and 5 focus exclusively on IDRs to examine their role in phase separation.

      To prevent further confusion, we have renamed the dataset used in Figures 2 and 3 as MLO-hProt, emphasizing that the analysis pertains to entire protein sequences. The term MLO-hIDR is now reserved for a new dataset that includes only disordered residues, as used in Figures 4 and 5, and corresponding SI Figures.

      For the dMLO-IDR dataset, all except one amino acid (P40967, residue G592) are annotated as disordered in the MobiDB database (https://mobidb.org/). This database characterizes disordered regions based on a combination of predictive algorithms and experimental data. As illustrated in Figure S5A, 25.5% of the proteins in the dataset have direct experimental evidence supporting their disorderedness. These experimental annotations are derived from a diverse range of techniques (Figure S5B). For the remaining proteins, disorder was predicted by one or more computational tools. Although not all tools were applied to every protein, each protein in the dataset was identified as disordered by at least one method.

      For human proteins, IDRs were identified based on AlphaFold2 pLDDT scores, using a threshold of 70. As established in prior studies [1, 2], the pLDDT score provides a quantitative measure of local structural confidence, with lower values indicating greater structural disorder. IDRs associated with conditional folding or disorder-to-order transitions generally exhibit high pLDDT values (e.g., >70).

      Author response image 2 shows a violin plot of AlphaFold2 pLDDT scores for the various MLO-hIDR groups. The consistently low scores support the conclusion that these regions are structurally disordered.

      We also cross-checked the MLO-hIDR regions against the MobiDB database. As shown in Figure S6, approximately 76% of the proteins in the dataset are predicted to contain disordered regions. Among the non-labeled segments with pLDDT scores ≤ 70, the majority are relatively short, with segments of 1–5 residues accounting for approximately 80%.

      Author response image 2.

      AlphaFold pLDDT scores of hIDRs in different MLO-related groups.

      In addition to renaming the dataset, we also revised the manuscript to highlight the validation of disorderedness in section of Results: Regions Driving Phase Separation Are Enriched with Conserved, Disordered Residues.

      “The presence of evolutionarily conserved disordered residues raises the question of their functional significance. To explore this, we identified disordered regions of MLO-hProt using a pLDDT score less than 70 and partitioned these regions into two categories: drivers (dMLO-hIDR), which actively drive phase separation, and clients (cMLO-hIDR), which are present in MLOs under certain conditions but do not promote phase separation themselves [cite]. Additionally, IDRs from human proteins not associated with MLOs, termed nMLO-hIDR, were included as a control. To enhance statistical robustness, we extended our dataset by incorporating driver proteins from additional species [cite], resulting in the expanded dMLO-IDR dataset. Beyond the pLDDT-based classification, the majority of residues in these datasets are also predicted to be disordered by various computational tools and supported by experimental evidence (Figures S5 and S6).”

      Recommendation 1: The authors use the terms "evolutionary fitness of IDRs" (abstract and p. 5, for example), "fitness of amino acids" (p. 4), and "quantify the fitness of particular residues at specific sites" (p. 5). It is not clear what is meant by fitness in this context.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out the ambiguity in the term fitness. To enhance clarity, we have replaced “fitness" with “mutational tolerance" to more directly emphasize the evolutionary conservation of specific residues.

      Recommendation 2: The authors write (p. 6) "Previous studies have demonstrated a strong correlation between ESM2 scores and changes in free energy related to protein structure stability". While that may be true, it might be worth noting that ESM2 scores report on the effects of mutations and function more broadly than stability because these models have previously been shown to capture conservation effects beyond stability.

      We fully agree with the reviewer’s comment and have revised the main text accordingly. Specifically, the referenced sentence has been revised and relocated, as shown below.

      “Our analysis demonstrated that HP1_α_’s structured domains consistently yield low ESM2 scores, reflecting strong mutational constraints characteristic of folded regions. These constraints are further evident in the local LLR predictions, as shown in Figure 2B, where we illustrate the folded region G120-T130. Given the functional importance of preserving the 3D of structured domains, mutations with greater detrimental effects are likely to disrupt protein folding substantially. This interpretation is consistent with previous studies reporting a significant correlation between ESM2 LLRs and changes in free energy associated with protein structural stability [cite].”

      Recommendation 3: p. 10: The authors write "To exclude sequences that no longer qualify as homologs, we filtered for sequences with at least 20% identity to the reference". How did they decide on 20% and why? And over which residues are these 20% calculated.

      We apologize for the earlier lack of clarity. Sequence alignment was performed using the full-length protein sequences, encompassing both folded and disordered regions. For each sequence, we calculated the percent identity by counting the number of positions, denoted as n, at which the amino acid matches the reference. The percent identity was then computed as n/N, where N represents the total length of the aligned reference sequence. This total includes residues in folded and disordered regions, as well as gap positions introduced during alignment.

      We updated the Methods section of the main text to clarify.

      “We performed multi-sequence alignment (MSA) analysis using HHblits from the HH-suite3 software suite [citations], a widely used open-source toolkit known for its sensitivity in detecting sequence similarities and identifying protein folds. HHblits builds MSAs through iterative database searches, sequentially incorporating matched sequences into the query MSA with each iteration. Sequence alignment was performed using the full-length protein sequences, encompassing both folded and disordered regions.

      ...

      To refine alignment quality by focusing on closely related homologs, we filtered out sequences with ≤ 20% identity to the query, excluding weakly related sequences where only short segments show similarity to the reference. For each sequence, we calculated the percent identity by counting the number of positions, denoted as n, at which the amino acid matches the reference. The percent identity was then computed as n/N, where N represents the total length of the aligned reference sequence. This total includes residues in folded and disordered regions, as well as gap positions introduced during alignment.”

      We selected a 20% sequence identity threshold to balance inclusion of true homologs with exclusion of distant matches that may not share functional relevance. To determine this cutoff, we compared identity thresholds of 0%, 10%, 20%, and 40% and examined the resulting distributions of conservation and ESM2 scores across aligned residues for MLO-hProt dataset (Author response image 3). Thresholds of 10%, 20%, and 40% produced qualitatively similar results, with a consistent correspondence between low ESM2 scores and high conservation. Lower thresholds introduced highly divergent sequences that added noise to the alignment, resulting in reduced overall conservation scores. In contrast, higher thresholds excluded homologs with potentially meaningful conservation, particularly in disordered regions where conservation scores tend to be relatively low.

      Author response image 3.

      Histograms of the ESM2 score and the conservation score, presented in a format consistent with Figure 3B of the main text. The conservation scores were computed using aligned sequences with identity thresholds of ≥0, ≥10%, ≥20%, and ≥40% (left to right). Contour lines represent different levels of −log_P_(CS,ESM2), where P is the joint probability density of conservation score (CS) and ESM2 score. Contours are spaced at 0.5-unit intervals, highlighting regions of distinct density.

      Recommendation 4: In their description of "motif" searching algorithm (p. 20) I think that the search algorithm would give a different result whether the search is performed N->C or C->N (because the first residue (i) needs to have a score <0.5 but the last (j) could have a score >0.5 as long as the average is below 0.5. Is that correct? And if so, why did they choose an asymmetric algorithm? .

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting the asymmetry in our motif-search algorithm.

      To investigate this issue, we repeated the algorithm starting from the C-terminus and compared the resulting motifs with those obtained from the N-terminal scan. We found that the two sets of motifs overlap entirely: each motif identified from the C-terminal direction has a corresponding counterpart from the N-terminal scan. However, the motifs are not identical. The directionality of the search introduces additional amino acids—referred to here as peripheral residues—at the motif boundaries, which differ between the two sets.

      As shown in Author response image 4, the number of peripheral residues is small relative to the total motif length.

      To eliminate asymmetry and ambiguity, we have revised our method to perform bidirectional scans—from both the N- and C-termini—and define each motif as the overlapping region identified by both directions. This approach emphasizes the conserved core and avoids the inclusion of spurious terminal residues. The updated procedure is described in Methods: Motif Identification.

      “To identify motifs within a given IDR, we implemented the following iterative procedure. Starting from either the N– or C–terminus of the sequence, we first locate the initial residue i whose ESM2 score falls within 0.5. From i, residues are sequentially appended…”

      Author response image 4.

      Number of peripheral residues and their relative length to the full-motif length identified from both sides. (A). The unique motifs identified from N-to-C terminal direction. (B) The unique motifs identified from C-to-N terminal direction.

      “…in the direction toward the opposite terminus until the segment’s average ESM2 score exceeds 0.5; the first residue to breach this threshold is denoted j. The segment (i,i+1,..., j−1) is then recorded as a candidate motif. This process repeats starting from j until the end of the IDR is reached.

      We perform this full procedure independently from both termini and designate the final motif as the intersection of the two candidate-motif sets. This bidirectional overlap strategy excludes terminal residues that might transiently satisfy the average-score criterion only due to adjacent low-scoring regions, thereby isolating the conserved core of each motif. All other residues—those not included in either directional pass—are classified as non-motif regions, minimizing peripheral artifacts.”

      Accordingly, we have updated the Supplementary material: ESM2_motif_with_exp_ref.csv for the new identified motifs commonly exited from both N-terminal and C-terminal searches. Minor changes were observed in the set of motifs as being discussed, but these do not affect the main conclusions. Figures 5C, 5D, and S6 have been revised accordingly.

      Reviewer #2:

      Summary:

      Unfortunately, I do not believe that the results can be trusted. ESM2 has not been validated for IDRs through experiments. The authors themselves point out its little use in that context. In this study, they do not provide any further rationale for why this situation might have changed. Furthermore, they mention that experimental perturbations of the predicted motifs in in vivo studies may further elucidate their functional importance, but none of that is done here. That some of the motifs have been previously validated does not give any credibility to the use of ESM2 here, given that such systems were probably seen during the training of the model.

      We thank the reviewer for their detailed and thoughtful critique of our manuscript. We recognize the importance of careful model validation, especially in the context of IDRs, and appreciate the opportunity to clarify the scope and rationale of our study. Below, we respond point-by-point to the main concerns.

      (1) The use of ESM2 is not validated for IDRs, and the authors provide no rationale for its applicability in this context.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this important point.

      First, we emphasize that ESM2 is a probabilistic language model trained entirely on amino acid sequences, without any structural supervision. The model does not receive any input about protein structure — folded or disordered — during training. Instead, it learns to estimate the likelihood of each amino acid at a given position, conditioned on the surrounding sequence context. This makes ESM2 agnostic to whether a sequence is folded or disordered; the model’s capacity to identify patterns of residue usage arises solely from the statistics of natural sequences.

      As such, ESM2 is not inherently biased toward folded proteins, even though previous studies have demonstrated its usefulness in identifying conserved and functionally constrained residues in structured domains [3–9]. These findings support the broader utility of language models for uncovering evolutionary constraints — and by extension, suggest that similar signatures could exist in IDRs, particularly if they are under functional selection.

      Indeed, if certain residues or motifs in IDRs are conserved due to their importance in biological processes (e.g., phase separation), we would expect such selection to be reflected in sequence-based features, which ESM2 is designed to detect. The model’s applicability to IDRs, then, is a natural extension of its core probabilistic architecture.

      To further evaluate this, we carried out an independent in silico validation using multiple sequence alignments (MSAs). This analysis allowed us to compute the evolutionary conservation of individual amino acids without any reliance on ESM2. We then compared these conservation scores to ESM2 scores and found a strong correlation between the two. This provides direct, quantitative support for the idea that ESM2 is capturing biologically meaningful sequence constraints — even in disordered regions.

      While we agree that experimental testing would ultimately provide the most compelling validation, we believe that our MSA-based comparison constitutes a strong and arguably ideal computational validation of the model’s predictions. It offers an orthogonal measure of evolutionary pressure that confirms the biological plausibility of ESM2 scores.

      We added the following text in the introduction to highlight the applicability of ESM2 to IDRs.

      “While protein language models have been widely applied to structured proteins, it is important to emphasize that these models themselves are not inherently biased toward folded domains. For example, the Evolutionary Scale Model (ESM2) [cite] is trained as a probabilistic language model on raw protein sequences, without incorporating any structural or functional annotations. It operates by estimating the likelihood of observing a given amino acid at a particular position, conditioned on the entire surrounding sequence context. This unsupervised learning paradigm enables ESM2 to capture statistical patterns of residue usage and evolutionary constraints without relying on explicit structural information. Thus, the success of ESM2 in modeling fitness landscapes of folded proteins reflects the model’s ability to learn sequence-level constraints imposed by natural selection — a property that is equally applicable to IDRs if those regions are also under functional selection. Indeed, protein language models are increasingly been used to analyze variant effects in IDRs [cite].”

      (2) There is no experimental validation of the ESM2-based predictions in this study.

      We agree that experimental validation would provide definitive support for the utility of ESM2 in IDRs, and we explicitly state this as a limitation in the revised manuscript as quoted below.

      “Limitations: Despite the promising findings, our study has several limitations. Most notably, our analysis is purely computational, relying on ESM2-derived predictions and sequence-based conservation without accompanying experimental validation. While the strong correlation between ESM2 scores and evolutionary conservation provides compelling evidence that the identified motifs are functionally constrained, the precise biological roles of these motifs remain uncharacterized. ESM2 is well-suited for highlighting regions under selective pressure, but it does not provide mechanistic insights into how conserved motifs contribute to specific molecular functions such as phase separation, molecular recognition, or dynamic regulation. Determining these roles will require targeted experimental investigations, including mutagenesis and biophysical characterization.”

      In addition, we revised the manuscript title from “Protein Language Model Identifies Disordered, Conserved Motifs Driving Phase Separation" to “Protein Language Model Identifies Disordered, Conserved Motifs Implicated in Phase Separation". This revision softens the original claim to better reflect the absence of direct experimental evidence for the motifs’ role in phase separation.

      However, we also emphasize that the goal of our study is not to claim definitive predictive power, but rather to explore whether ESM2-derived mutational profiles align with known biological features of IDRs — and in doing so, to generate new, testable hypotheses.

      In addition, while no in vivo experiments were performed, our study does include an in silico validation step, as detailed in the response to the previous comment. The strong correlation between ESM2 scores and conservation scores provides direct support for the utility of ESM2 in identifying residues under evolutionary constraint in disordered regions.

      (3) The overlap between predicted motifs and known ones may be due totraining data leakage.

      We respectfully clarify that training data leakage is not possible in this case, as ESM2 is trained using unsupervised learning on raw protein sequences alone. The model has no access to experimental annotations, functional labels, or knowledge of which motifs are involved in phase separation. It only models statistical sequence patterns derived from evolutionarily observed proteins.

      Therefore, any agreement between ESM2-derived predictions and previously validated motifs arises not from memorization of experimental data, but from the model’s ability to learn meaningful sequence constraints from the natural distribution of proteins.

      (4) The authors should revamp the study with a testable predictive framework.

      We respectfully suggest that a full revamp is not necessary or appropriate in this context.

      As outlined in our previous responses, we believe that certain misunderstandings about the nature and capabilities of ESM2 may have influenced the reviewer’s assessment.

      Importantly, both Reviewer 1 and Reviewer 3 express strong support for the significance and novelty of this work, and recommend publication following minor revisions.

      In this context, we believe the manuscript provides a useful contribution as a first step toward understanding disordered regions using language models, and that it has value even in the absence of direct experimental testing. We have now better positioned the manuscript in this light, clarified limitations, and suggested concrete next steps for follow-up research.

      We hope these clarifications and revisions address the reviewer’s concerns, and we thank them again for helping us strengthen the framing, rigor, and clarity of our study.

      Reviewer #3:

      Summary:

      This is a very nice and interesting paper to read about motif conservation in protein sequences and mainly in IDRs regions using the ESM2 language model. The topic of the paper is timely, with strong biological significance. The paper can be of great interest to the scientific community in the field of protein phase transitions and future applications using the ESM models. The ability of ESM2 to identify conserved motifs is crucial for disease prediction, as these regions may serve as potential drug targets. Therefore, I find these findings highly significant, and the authors strongly support them throughout the paper. The work motivates the scientific community towards further motif exploration related to diseases.

      Strengths:

      (1) Revealing conserved regions in IDRs by the ESM-2 language model.

      (2) Identification of functionally significant residues within protein sequences, especially in IDRs.

      (3) Findings supported by useful analyses.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s thoughtful words and support for our work.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Lack of examples demonstrating the potential biological functions of these conserved regions.

      As detailed in the Response to Recommendation 6, we conducted additional analyses to connect the identified conserved regions with their biological functions.

      (2) Very limited discussion of potential future work and of limitations.

      We have substantially revised the Conclusions and Discussion section to provide a detailed analysis of the study’s limitations and to propose several directions for future research, as elaborated in our Response to Recommendation 5 below.

      Recommendation 1: The authors describe the ESM2 score such that lower scores are associated with conserved residues, stating that "lower scores indicate higher mutational constraint and reduced flexibility, implying that these residues are more likely essential for protein function, as they exhibit fewer permissible mutational states." However, when examining intrinsically disordered regions (IDRs), which are known to drive phase separation, I observe that the ESM2 score is relatively high (Figure 3C, pLDDT < 50, and Supplementary Figure S2). Could the authors clarify how this relatively high score aligns with the conservation of motifs that drive phase separation?

      We thank the reviewer for this insightful comment. We would like to clarify that most amino acids in the IDRs are not conserved, even for IDRs that contribute to phase separation. Only a small set of amino acids in these IDRs, which we term as motifs, are evolutionarily conserved with low ESM2 scores. Therefore, the ESM2 scores exhibit bimodal distribution at high and low values, as shown in Figures 4A and 4C of the manuscript. When averaged over all the amino acids, the mean ESM2 scores, plotted in Figure 3C, are relatively high due to dominant population of non-conserved amino acids.

      Recommendation 2: The authors mention: "We first analyzed the relationship between ESM2 and pLDDT scores for human Heterochromatin Protein 1 (HP1, residues 1-191)". I appreciate this example as a demonstration of amino acid conservation in IDRs. However, it is questionable whether the authors could provide some more examples to support amino acid conservation particularly within the IDRs along with lower ESM2 score (e.g, Could the authors provide some additional examples of "conserved disordered" regions in various proteins which are associated with relatively low ESM2 score as appear in Figure 2A).

      We thank the reviewer for this valuable suggestion. We want to kindly noted that the conserved residues on IDRs are prevalent as indicated in Figures 2D and 3B. To further illustrate the prevalence of “conserved disordered” regions, we generated ESM2 versus pLDDT score plots for the full dMLO–hProt dataset (82 proteins) in Figure S2. In these plots, residues with pLDDT ≤ 70 are highlighted in blue to denote structural disorder (dMLO-hIDR), and these disordered residues with ESM2 score ≤ 1.5 are shown in purple to indicate conserved disordered segments.

      Recommendation 3: Could the authors plot a Violin conservation score plot for Figure 4A to emphasise the relationship between ESM2 scores and conservation scores of disordered residues?

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We included a violin plot illustrating the distribution of conservation scores for disordered residues across all four IDR groups, shown in Author response image 5. Consistent with the findings in Figure 4A, the phase separation drivers (dMLO-hIDR and dMLOIDR) exhibit a higher proportion of conserved amino acids compared to the client group (cMLOhIDR).

      We also note that the nMLO-hIDR group may contain conserved residues due to functions unrelated to MLO formation, which could contribute to the higher observed levels of conservation in this group.

      Author response image 5.

      Violin plots illustrating the distribution of conservation scores for disordered residues across the nMLO–hIDR, cMLO–hIDR, dMLO–hIDR, and dMLO–IDR datasets. Pairwise statistical comparisons were conducted using two-sided Mann–Whitney U tests on the conservation score distributions (null hypothesis: the two groups have equal medians). P-values indicate the probability of observing the observed rank differences under the null hypothesis. Statistical significance is denoted as follows: ***: p < 0.001; **: p < 0.01; *:p < 0.05;

      Recommendation 4: It will be appreciated if the authors could add to Figure 4 Violin plots, a statistical comparison between the different groups.

      We thank the reviewer for this valuable suggestion. We included the p-values for Figures 4A and 4C to quantify the statistical significance of differences in the distributions.

      Most comparisons are highly significant (p < 0.001), while the largest p-value (p = 0.089) between the conservation score of driving and non-participating groups (Figure 4C) still suggests a marginally significant trend.

      Recommendation 5: Could the authors expand more on potential future research directions using ESM2, given its usefulness in identifying conserved motifs? Specifically, how do the authors envision conserved motifs will contribute to future discoveries/applications/models using ESM (e.g, discuss the importance of conserved motifs, especially in IDRs motifs, in protein phase transition prediction in relation to diseases).

      We thank the reviewer for this insightful comment. To further assess the functional relevance of the conserved motifs, we incorporated pathogenic variant data from ClinVar [10, 11] to evaluate mutational impacts. As shown in Figure S12A and B, a substantial number of pathogenic variants in MLO-hProt proteins are associated with low ESM2 LLR values. This pattern holds for both folded and disordered residues.

      Moreover, we observed that variants located within motifs are more frequently pathogenic compared to those outside motifs (Figure S12C). In the main text, motifs were defined only for driver proteins; however, the available variant data for this subset are limited (6 data points). To improve statistical power, we extended motif identification to include both client and driver human proteins, following the same methodology described in the main text. Consistent with previous findings, variants within motifs in this expanded set are also more likely to be pathogenic. These results further support the functional importance of both low ESM2-scoring residues and the conserved motifs in which they reside.

      The following text was added in the Discussion section of the manuscript to discuss these results and outline future research directions.

      “Several promising directions could extend this work, both to refine our mechanistic understanding and to explore clinical relevance. One avenue is testing the hypothesis that conserved motifs in scaffold proteins act as functional stickers, mediating strong intermolecular interactions. This could be evaluated computationally via free energy calculations or experimentally via interaction assays. Deletion of such motifs in client proteins may also reduce their partitioning into condensates, illuminating their roles in molecular recruitment.

      To explore potential clinical implications, we analyzed pathogenicity data from Clin-Var [10, 11]. As shown in Figure S12A, single-point mutations with low LLR values—indicative of constrained residues—are enriched among clinically reported pathogenic variants, while benign variants typically exhibit higher LLR values. Moreover, mutations within conserved motifs are significantly more likely to be pathogenic than those in non-motif regions (Figure S12B). These findings highlight the potential of ESM2 as a first-pass screening tool for identifying clinically relevant residues and suggest that the conserved motifs described here may serve as priorities for future studies, both mechanistic and therapeutic.”

      Moreover, the functional significance of conserved motifs, particularly their implications in disease and pathology, warrants further investigation. As an initial analysis, we incorporated ClinVar pathogenic variant data [citation] to assess mutational effects within our datasets. As illustrated in Figure R12A, single-point mutations with low LLR values are enriched among clinically reported pathogenic variants, whereas benign variants are more commonly associated with higher LLR values. Notably, mutations within conserved motifs are substantially more likely to be pathogenic compared to those in non-motif regions. These findings highlight the potential of ESM2 as a firstpass tool for identifying residues of clinical relevance. The conserved motifs identified here may be prioritized in future studies aimed at elucidating their biological roles and evaluating their viability as therapeutic targets.

      Recommendation 6: The authors mention: "Our findings provide strong evidence for evolutionary pressures acting on specific IDRs to preserve their roles in scaffolding phase separation mechanisms, emphasizing the functional importance of entire motifs rather than individual residues in MLO formation." They also present a word cloud of functional motifs in Figure 5D. Although it makes sense that evolutionarily conserved motifs, especially within the IDRs regions, act as functional units, I think there is no direct evidence for such functionality (e.g., examples of biological pathways associated with IDRs and phase separation). Hence, there is no justification to write in the figure caption: "ESM2 Identifies Functional Motifs in driving IDRs" unless the authors provide some examples of such functionality. This will even make the paper stronger by establishing a clear connection to biological pathways, and hence these motifs can serve as potential drug targets.

      We thank the reviewer for this insightful suggestion. We have replaced “functional motifs" with “conserved motifs" in the figure caption.

      Identifying the precise biological pathways associated with the conserved motifs is a complex task and a comprehensive investigation lies beyond the scope of this study. Nonetheless, as an initial effort, we explored the potential functions of these motifs using annotations available in DisProt (https://disprot.org/).

      DisProt is the leading manually curated database dedicated to IDPs, providing both structural and functional annotations. Expert curators compile experimentally validated data, including definitions of disordered regions, associated functional terms, and supporting literature references. Author response image 6 presents a representative DisProt entry for DNA topoisomerase 1 (UniProt ID: P11387), illustrating its structural and biological annotation.

      For each motif, we located the corresponding DisProt entry and assigned a functional annotation based on the annotated IDR from which the motif originates. We emphasize that this functional assignment should be regarded as an approximation. Because experimental annotations often pertain to the entire IDR, regions outside the motif may also contribute to the reported function.

      Nevertheless, the annotations provide valuable insights.

      Author response image 6.

      Screenshot of information provided by the DisProt database. Detailed annotations of biological functions and structural features, along with experimental references, are accessible via mouse click.

      Approximately 50% of ESM2-predicted IDR motifs lack functional annotations. Among those that are annotated, motifs from the dMLO-IDR dataset are predominantly associated with “molecular condensate scaffold activity,” followed by various biomolecular binding functions (Author response image 7A). These findings support the role of these motifs in MLO formation.

      For comparison, we applied the same identification procedure (described in Methods: Motif Identification) to motifs from the nMLO-hIDR dataset. In contrast to the dMLO-IDR motifs, these exhibit a broader range of annotated functions related to diverse cellular processes. Collectively, these results suggest that motifs identified by ESM2 are aligned with biologically relevant functions captured in current databases.

      Finally, as illustrated in Figure S12 and discussed in the Response to Recommendation 5, variants occurring within identified motifs are more likely to be pathogenic than those in non-motif regions, further underscoring their functional importance.

      Author response image 7.

      Biological functions of ESM2-predicted motifs. (A) Distribution of biological functions associated with all identified motifs from dMLO-IDR driving groups. (B) Distribution of biological functions associated with all identified motifs from nMLO-hIDR groups.

      Recommendation 7: In Figure 2C the authors present FE (I assume this is free energy), some discussion about the difference in the free energy referring to the "a" region is missing (i.e. both "Folded" and "Disordered" regions are associated with low ESM score but with low and high free energy (FE), respectively.

      We thank the reviewer for the comments. FE indeed abbreviates free energy. To improve clarify and avoid confusion, we have updated all figure captions by replacing “FE” with “−logP” to explicitly denote the logarithm of probability in the contour density plots.

      We used “a" in Figures 2C and 2D to refer to regions with low ESM2 scores, which appears a local minimum in both plots. Since most residues in folded regions are conserved, region a has lower free energy than region b in Figure 2C. On the other hand, as most residues in disordered regions are not conserved, as we elaborated in Response to Recommendation 1, region a has lower population and higher free energy than region b.

      To avoid confusion, we have replaced “a" and “b" in Figure 2D with “I" and “II".

      Recommendation 8: Figure S2: It would be useful to plot the same figure for structured and disordered regions as well.

      We are not certain we fully understood this comment, as we believe the requested analysis has already been addressed. In Figure S2, we used the AlphaFold2 pLDDT score to represent the structural continuum of different protein regions, where residues with pLDDT > 70 (red and lightred bars) are classified as structured, while those with pLDDT ≤ 70 (blue and light-blue bars) are classified as disordered.

      Minor suggestion 1: Could the authors clarify the meaning of the abbreviation "FE" in the colorbar of the contour line? I assume this is free energy.

      We have updated all contour density plot figure captions by replacing “FE” with “−logP” to explicitly denote the logarithm of probability.

      Minor suggestion 2: In Figure 2A - do the authors mean "Conserved folded" instead of just "Folded"? If so, could the authors indicate this?

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. The ESM2 scores indeed suggest that, within folded regions, there may be multiple distinct groups exhibiting varying degrees of evolutionary conservation. However, as our primary focus is on IDRs, we chose not to investigate these distinctions further.

      Figure 2A illustrates a randomly selected folded region based on AlphaFold2 pLDDT scores.

      References

      (1) Ruff, K. M.; Pappu, R. V. AlphaFold and Implications for Intrinsically Disordered Proteins. Journal of Molecular Biology 2021, 433, 167208.

      (2) Alderson, T. R.; Pritišanac, I.; Kolaric, Ð.; Moses, A. M.; Forman-Kay, J. D. Systematic´ Identification of Conditionally Folded Intrinsically Disordered Regions by AlphaFold2. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America, 120, e2304302120.

      (3) Brandes, N.; Goldman, G.; Wang, C. H.; Ye, C. J.; Ntranos, V. Genome-Wide Prediction of Disease Variant Effects with a Deep Protein Language Model. Nature Genetics 2023, 55, 1512–1522.

      (4) Lin, Z. et al. Evolutionary-Scale Prediction of Atomic-Level Protein Structure with a Language Model. 2023.

      (5) Zeng, W.; Dou, Y.; Pan, L.; Xu, L.; Peng, S. Improving Prediction Performance of General Protein Language Model by Domain-Adaptive Pretraining on DNA-binding Protein. Nature Communications 2024, 15, 7838.

      (6) Gong, J. et al. THPLM: A Sequence-Based Deep Learning Framework for Protein Stability Changes Prediction upon Point Variations Using Pretrained Protein Language Model. Bioinformatics 2023, 39, btad646.

      (7) Lin, W.; Wells, J.; Wang, Z.; Orengo, C.; Martin, A. C. R. Enhancing Missense Variant Pathogenicity Prediction with Protein Language Models Using VariPred. Scientific Reports 2024, 14, 8136.

      (8) Saadat, A.; Fellay, J. Fine-Tuning the ESM2 Protein Language Model to Understand the Functional Impact of Missense Variants. Computational and Structural Biotechnology Journal 2025, 27, 2199–2207.

      (9) Chu, S. K. S.; Narang, K.; Siegel, J. B. Protein Stability Prediction by Fine-Tuning a Protein Language Model on a Mega-Scale Dataset. PLOS Computational Biology 2024, 20, e1012248.

      (10) Landrum, M. J.; Lee, J. M.; Riley, G. R.; Jang, W.; Rubinstein, W. S.; Church, D. M.; Maglott, D. R. ClinVar: Public Archive of Relationships among Sequence Variation and Human Phenotype. Nucleic Acids Research 2014, 42, D980–D985.

      (11) Landrum, M. J. et al. ClinVar: Improving Access to Variant Interpretations and Supporting Evidence. Nucleic Acids Research 2018, 46, D1062–D1067.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer 1:

      (1) A major issue throughout the paper is that Hox expression analysis is done exclusively through quantitative PCR, with values ranging from 2-fold to several thousand-fold upregulation, with no antibody validation for any Hox protein (presumably they are all upregulated).

      Thank you for your comment.

      We tried to verify the stimulated Hox expression pattern by in situ hybridization. Although in early embryos (E9.5) we could detect clearly hox (i.e. Hox8 and Hox9 in Author response image 1) expression patterns in the neural tube by whole mount in situ hybridization, we failed to detect a clear pattern in the brain stem at E18.5 either in whole mount tissue or on sections. That’s one reason that we turned to single nuclear RNA-seq instead.

      This is likely due to their low expression levels at late developmental stages and need to be detected by more sensitive method. However, we estimated that the stimulated expression levels of the representative Hox genes are at least comparable to the physiological levels at posterior spinal cord to evoke a functional effect.

      Author response image 1.

      Some Hox8 and Hox9 expression pattern in E9.5 embryos.

      (2) In Figure 1, massive upregulation of most Hox genes in the brainstem is shown after e16.5 but the paper quickly focuses on analysis of PN nuclei. What are the other consequences of this broad upregulation of Hox genes in the brainstem? There is no discussion of the overall phenotype of the mice, the structure of the brainstem, the migration of neurons, etc. The very narrow focus on motor cortex projections to PN nuclei seems bizarre without broad characterization of the mice, and the brainstem in particular. There is only a mention of "severe motor deficits" from previous studies, but given the broad expression of Rnf220, the fact that is a global knockout, and the effects on spinal cord populations shown previously the justification for focusing on PN nuclei does not seem strong.

      Thank you for your comment.

      Although RNF220 is important for the dorsal-ventral patterning of the spinal cord as well as the hindbrain during embryonic development, the earlier neural patterning and differentiation are normal in the Rnf220+/- mice (Wang et al., 2022). However, these mice showed reduced survival and motility to various degree postnatally (Ma et al., 2019; Ma et al., 2021), likely suggesting a dosage dependent role of RNF220 in maintaining late neural development. As our microarray assay showed the deregulation of the Hox genes in the brain, we followed this direction in this study and narrowed down the affected region to the pons. Our single nuclear RNA-Seq (snRNA-seq) data further shows that the Hox de-regulation mainly occurred in 3 clusters of neurons. However, the pons is complex and contains tens of nuclei. And the current resolution of our data does not support to assign a clear identity to each of them. Although it is clear that more nuclei are likely affected, the PN (cluster7) is the only cluster we can identify to follow in the current study. 

      As to general effect of RNF220 haploinsufficiency on the brainstem, we carried out Nissl staining assays and found no clear difference in neuronal cell organization between WT and Rnf220+/- pons (revised Figure 2-figure supplement 2).

      (3) It is stated that cluster 7 in scRNA-seq corresponds to the PN nuclei. The modest effect shown on Hox3-5 expression in that data in Figure 1 is inconsistent with the larger effect shown in Figure 2.

      Thank you for your comment.

      Due to the low efficiency of snRNA-seq and the depth of the sequencing, the quantification of the Hox expression based on the snRNA-seq data is likely less accurate as the qRT-PCR. In addition, only mRNAs in the nuclear could be captured by snRNA-seq, while mRNAs in both the nuclear and cytoplasm were reversed-transcribed and examined for qRT-PCR assays in Figure 2A.

      (4) Presumably, Hox genes are not the only targets of Rnf220 as shown in the microarray/RNA-sequencing data. There is no definitive evidence that any phenotypes observed (which are also not clear) are specifically due to Hox upregulation. The only assay the authors use to look at a Hox-dependent phenotype in the brainstem is the targeting of PN nuclei by motor cortex axons. This is only done in 2 animals and there are no details as to how the data was analyzed and quantified. The only 2 images shown are not convincing of a strong phenotype, they could be taken at slightly different levels or angles. At the very least, serial sections should be shown and the experiment repeated in more animals. There is also no discussion of how these phenotypes, if real, would relate to previous work by the Rijli group which showed very precise mechanisms of synaptic specificity in this system.

      Thank you for your comments and suggestions.

      The deregulation of Hox is the most obvious phenomena observed from the RNA-seq data, and we tried to assign its specific phenotypic effect in this study. As the roles of Hox in PN patterning and circuit formation is well established, we focused on the PN in the following study. Based on literature, we carried out the circuit analysis to examine the targeting of PN neurons by the motor cortex axons. A cohort of additional animals with different genotypes (n=10 for WT and n=9 for Rnf220+/-) were used to repeat the experiment and we got the same conclusion. More detailed information on data analysis and serial images were included in the revised manuscript and figure legends.

      (5) The temporal aspect of this regulation in vivo is not clear. The authors show some expression changes begin at e16.5 but are also present at 2 months. Is the presumed effect on neural circuits a result of developmental upregulation at late embryonic stages or does the continuous overexpression in adult mice have additional influence? Are any of the Hox genes upregulated normally expressed in the brainstem, or PN specifically, at 2 months? Why perform single-cell sequencing experiments at 2 months if this is thought to be mostly a developmental effect? Similarly, the significance of the upregulated WRD5 in the pons and pontine nuclei at 2 months in Figure 3 is not clear.

      Thank you for your comment.

      The spatial and temporal expression pattern of Hox genes is established at early embryonic stages and then maintained throughout developmental stage in mammals. As we have shown, the de-repression of Hox genes is a long-lasting defect in Rnf220+/- mice beginning at late embryonic stages. Since the neuronal circuit is established after birth in mice, we speculated that the neuronal circuit defects from motor cortex to PN neurons were due to the long-lasting up-regulation of Hox genes in PN neurons. We could not distinguish the effect on neural circuit a result of Hox genes developmental upregulation or continuous overexpression in adult mice. An inducible knockout mouse model may help to answer this question in the future. The discussion on this point was included in the revised manuscript.

      We carried out snRNA-seq analysis using pons tissues from adult mice aiming to identify the specific cell population with Hox up-regulation, which we failed to specify by in situ hybridization.

      We repeated the related experiments in the original Figure 3 and some of the blot images were replaced and quantified.

      (6) In Figure 3C, the levels of RNF220 in wt and het don't seem to be that different.

      We repeated the experiments and changed the related image in the revised Figure 3C.

      (7) Based on the single-cell experiments, and the PN nuclei focus, the rescue experiments are confusing. If the Rnf220 deletion has a sustained effect for up to 2 months, why do the injections in utero? If the focus is the PN nuclei why look at Hox9 expression and not Hox3-5 which are the only Hox genes upregulated in PN based on sc-sequencing? No rescue of behavior or any phenotype other than Hox expression by qPCR is shown and it is unclear whether upregulation of Hox9 paralogs leads to any defects in the first place. The switch to the Nes-cre driver is not explained. Also, it seems that wdr5 mRNA levels are not so relevant and protein levels should be shown instead (same for rescue experiments in P19 cells).

      Thank you for your comments.

      Since our data suggest that the upregulation of Hox genes expression is a long-lasting effect beginning at the late embryonic stage of E16.5, we conducted the rescue experiments by in utero injection of WDR5 inhibitor at E15.5 and examined the expression of Hox genes at E18.5. Although it is also necessary to examine whether the rescue effect by WDR5 inhibitor injection is also a long-lasting effect at adult stages, it is difficult to distinguish the embryos or pups when they were given birth. As a supplement, rescue assays with genetic ablation of Wdr5 gene were conducted and the results showed that genetic ablation of a single copy of Wdr5 allele could revere the upregulation of Hox genes by RNF220 haploinsufficiency in the hindbrains at P15.

      Most of the upregulated Hox genes including both Hox9 and Hox3-5 were examined in our rescue experiments. Since this study focuses on the PN nuclei, the results of Hox3-5 genes were shown in the revised main Figure 6.

      We conducted rescue experiments by deleting Wdr5 in neural tissue using Nestin-Cr_e mice because _Wdr5+/- mice is embryonic lethal. And the up-regulation of Hox genes could be also observed in the hindbrains of Rnf220fl/wt; Nestin-Cre mice. Although Rnf220fl/wt; Wdr5fl/wt; Nestin-Cre mice are viable and could survive to adult stages, developmental defects in the forebrains, including cerebral cortex and hippocampus, were observed in Rnf220fl/wt;Wdr5fl/wt;Nestin-Cre mice. Therefore, no rescue of behavior tests was conducted in this study. We believe that it is out of the scope of this study to discuss the role of WDR5 in the development of forebrains.

      The potential defects due to the up-regulation of Hox9 paralogs awaits further investigations.

      Wdr5 mRNA levels were firstly examined to confirm the genetic deletion or siRNA mediated knockdown of Wdr5 genes. We have carried out western blot to examine the WDR5 protein levels and the results were included in the revised Figure 3.

      (8) What is the relationship between Retinoic acid and WRD5? In Figure 3E there is no change in WRD5 levels without RA treatment in Rnf KO but an increase in expression with RA treatment and Rnf KO. However, the levels of WRD5 do not seem to change with RA treatment alone. Does Rnf220 only mediate WDR5 degradation in the presence of RA? This does not seem to be the case in experiments in 293 cells in Figure 4.

      Thank you for your comment.

      We believe that the regulation of WDR5 and Hox expression by RNF220 is context dependent and precisely controlled in vivo, depending on the molecular and epigenetic status of the cell, which is fulfilled by RA treatment in P19 cells. In Figure 4, the experiment is based on exogenous overexpression assays, which might not fully reflect the situation in vivo.

      (9) Why are the levels of Hox upregulation after RA treatment so different in Figure 5 and Figure Supplement 5?

      In Figure.5C, the Hox expression levels were normalized against the control group in the presence of RA; while in Figure Supplement 5 they were normalized to the control group without RA treatment.

      (10) In Figures 4B+C which lanes are input and which are IP? There is no quantitation of Figure 4D, from the blot it does look that there is a reduction in the last 2 columns as well. The band in the WT flag lane seems to have a bubble. Need to quantitate band intensities. Same for E, the effect does not seem to be completely reversed with MG132.

      Thanks for pointing this out. The labels were included in the revised Figure 4B and 4C.

      We repeated the experiments for Figure 4D and 4E. Some of bot images were replaced and quantified in the revised Figure 4D and 4E.

      Reviewer 2:

      (1) Figure 1E shows that Rnf220 knockdown alone could not induce an increase in Hox expression without RA, which indicates that Rnf220 might endogenously upregulate Retinoic acid signaling. The authors should test if RA signaling is downstream of Rnf220 by looking at differences in the expression of Retinaldehyde dehydrogenase genes (as a proxy for RA synthesis) upon Rnf220 knockdown.

      Thank you for your comment and suggestion.

      Two sequential reactions are required for RA synthesis from retinol, which catalyzed by alcohol dehydrogenases (ADHs)/ retinol dehydrogenase (RDH) and retinaldehyde dehydrogenase (RALDHs also known as ALDHs) respectively. When RA is no longer needed, it is catabolized by cytochrome enzymes (CYP26 enzymes) (Niederreither, et al.,2008; Kedishvili et al., 2016). Here, we test ADHs、ALDHs and CYP26 enzymes in E16.5 WT and Rnf220-/- embryos.

      The results are as follows. ADH7 and ADH10 are slightly upregulated. ALDH1 and ALDH3 are upregulated and downregulated in Rnf220-/- embryos, respectively, but there is no significant change in the expression of ALDH2, which plays a key role in RA synthesis during embryonic development (Niederreither, et al.,2008). Furthermore, Cyp26a1 which responsible for RA catabolism was upregulated in Rnf220-/- embryos. Collectively, these data do not support a clear effect on RA signaling by RNF220.  

      Author response image 2.

      The effect of Rnf220 on RA synthesis and degradation pathways

      (2) In Figure 2C-D further explanation is required to describe what criteria were used to segment the tissue into Rostral, middle, and caudal regions. Additionally, it is unclear whether the observed change in axonal projection pattern is caused due to physical deformation and rearrangement of the entire Pons tissue or due to disruption of Hox3-5 expression levels. Labeling of the tissue with DAPI or brightfield image to show the structural differences and similarities between the brain regions of WT and Rnf220 +/- will be helpful.

      Thank you for your comment and suggestion.

      More information on the quantification of the results shown in Figure 2C-D was included in our revised manuscript. We carried out Nissl staining assays using coronal sections of the brainstem and found that there is no significant difference in neuronal cell organization between WT and Rnf220+/- (revised Figure 2-figure supplement 2).

      (3) Line 192-195. These roles of PcG and trxG complexes are inconsistent with their initial descriptions in the text - lines 73-74.

      We are sorry for the mistake. We carefully revised the related descriptions to avoid such mistake. Thank you.

      (4) In Figure 4D, the band in the gel seems unclear and erased. Please provide a different one. These data show that neither Rnf220 nor wdr5 directly regulates Hox gene expressions. The effect of double knockdown in the presence of RA suggests that they work together to suppress Hox gene expression via a different downstream target. This point should be addressed in the text and discussion section of the paper. example for the same data which shows a full band with lower intensity.

      Thank you for your suggestion.

      We repeated the experiment of Figure 4D and some of the blot images were replaced in the revised Figure 4D.

      Indeed, in the presence of RA, knockdown of Rnf220 alone can upregulate the expression Hox genes (Figure 5C). Knockdown of Wdr5 could reverse the upregulation of Hox genes in RNF220 knockdown cells, suggesting that Rnf220 regulated Hox gene expression in a Wdr5 dependent manner. However, in the absence of RA, none of Rnf220 knockdown, Wdr5 knockdown or Rnf220 and Wdr5 double knockdown had a significant effect on the expression of Hox genes in P19 cells. It seems that RA signaling plays a crucial role for the regulation of RNF220 to WDR5 in P19 cells and discussion on this point was included in the revised manuscript.

      (5) In Figure 4G the authors could provide some form of quantitation for changes in ubiquitination levels to make it easier for the reader. They should also describe the experimental procedures and conditions used for each of the pull-down and ubiquitination assays in greater detail in the methods section.

      Thank you for your suggestion.

      The quantitation and statistics for the original Figure 4G were included in the revised Figure 4. More information on the biochemical assays was included in the “Methods and Materials” section of our revised manuscript.

      (6) Figure 5 shows that neither Rnf220 nor wdr5 directly regulate Hox gene expressions. The effect of double knockdown in the presence of RA suggests that they work together to suppress Hox gene expression via a different downstream target.

      Thank you for your comment.

      In fact, knockdown of Rnf220 alone can upregulate the expression Hox genes in the presence of RA (Figure 5C). Furthermore, knockdown of Wdr5 could reverse the upregulation of Hox genes in Rnf220 knockdown cells, which suggest that Rnf220 regulated Hox gene expression in a Wdr5 dependent manner. However, in the absence of RA, none of Rnf220 knockdown, Wdr5 knockdown or Rnf220 and Wdr5 double knockdown had a significant effect on the expression of Hox genes in P19 cells. It seems that RA signaling plays a crucial role for the regulation of RNF220 to WDR5 in P19 cells and discussion on this point was included in the revised manuscript.

      (7) In Figure 6, while the reversal of changes in Hox gene expression upon concurrent Rnf220; Wdr5 inhibition highlights the importance of Wdr5 in this regulatory process, the mechanistic role of wdr5 and its functional consequences are unclear. To answer these questions, the authors need to: (i) Assay for activated and repressive epigenetic modifications upon double knockdown of Rnf220 and Wdr5 similar to that shown in Figure 3- supplement 1. This will reveal if wdr5 functions according to its intended role as part of the TrxG complex. (ii) The authors need to assay for changes in axon projection patterns in the double knockdown condition to see if Wdr5 inhibition rescues the neural circuit defects in Rnf220 +/- mice.<br />

      Thank you for your suggestion.

      Although it is also necessary to examine whether the rescue effect by WDR5 inhibitor injection in uetro is also a long-lasting effect for neuronal cirtuit at adult stages, it is difficult to distinguish the embryos or pups when they were given birth. Although Rnf220fl/wt;Wdr5fl/wt;Nestin-Cre mice are viable and could survive to adult stages, developmental defects in the forebrains, including cerebral cortex and hippocampus, were observed in Rnf220fl/wt;Wdr5fl/wt;Nestin-Cre mice. Therefore, no rescue effect on defects of behavior and neuronal circuit were examined in this study. Maybe, a PN nuclei specific inducible Cre mouse line could help toward this direction in the future.

      We carried out ChIP-qPCR and tested activated and repressive epigenetic modifications upon double knockdown of Rnf220 and Wdr5 in P19 cell line and found Rnf220 and Wdr5 double knockdown recured Hox epigenetic modification to a certain degree (Figure 6-figure supplement 1).

      References

      Kedishvili, N.Y. 2016. Retinoic acid synthesis and degradation. Subcell Biochem, 81:127-161. DOI: 10.1007/978-94-024-0945-1_5, PMID: 2783050

      Ma, P., Li, Y., Wang, H., Mao, B., Luo, Z.-G. 2021. Haploinsufficiency of the TDP43 ubiquitin E3 ligase RNF220 leads to ALS-like motor neuron defects in the mouse. Journal of Molecular Cell Biology, 13: 374-382. DOI: 10.1093/jmcb/mjaa072, PMID: 33386850

      Ma, P., Song, N.-N., Li, Y., Zhang, Q., Zhang, L., Zhang, L., Kong, Q., Ma, L., Yang, X., Ren, B., Li, C., Zhao, X., Li, Y., Xu, Y., Gao, X., Ding, Y.-Q., Mao, B. 2019. Fine-Tuning of Shh/Gli Signaling Gradient by Non-proteolytic Ubiquitination during Neural Patterning. Cell Rep, 28: 541-553.e544. DOI: 10.1016/j.celrep.2019.06.017, PMID: 31291587

      Niederreither, K., Dollé, P. 2008. Retinoic acid in development: towards an integrated view. Nat Rev Genet, 9: 541-53. DOI: 10.1038/nrg2340, PMID: 18542081

      Wang, Y.-B., Song, N.-N., Zhang, L., Ma, P., Chen, J.-Y., Huang, Y., Hu, L., Mao, B., Ding, Y.-Q. 2022. Rnf220 is Implicated in the Dorsoventral Patterning of the Hindbrain Neural Tube in Mice. Front Cell Dev Biol, 10. DOI: 10.3389/fcell.2022.831365, PMID: 35399523

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Thank you for the thoughtful consideration of our work, including both reviewers’ constructive comments. Our apologies for taking some extra time for this revision, but we wanted to adress comments thoroughly with new analyses, not to mention a PhD defense, parental leave and my teaching ultimately being the bottleneck for the team’s work!

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The authors use a combination of structural and MD simulation approaches to characterize phospholipid interactions with the pentameric ligand-gated ion channel, GLIC. By analyzing the MD simulation data using clusters of closed and open states derived previously, the authors also seek to compare lipid interactions between putative functional states. The ultimate goal of this work is to understand how lipids shape the structure and function of this channel.

      The strengths of this article include the following:

      1) The MD simulation data provide extensive sampling of lipid interactions in GLIC, and these interactions were characterized in putative closed and open states of the channel. The extensive sampling permits confident delineation of 5-6 phospholipid interaction sites per subunit. The agreement in phospholipid binding poses between structures and the all-atom MD simulations supports the utility of MD simulations to examine lipid interactions.

      2) The study presents phospholipid binding sites/poses that agree with functionally-important lipid binding sites in other pLGICs, supporting the notion that these sites are conserved. For example, the authors identify interactions of POPC at an outer leaflet intersubunit site that is specific for the open state. This result is quite interesting as phospholipids or drugs that positively modulate other pLGICs are known to occupy this site. Also, the effect of mutating W217 in the inner leaflet intersubunit site suggests that this residue, which is highly conserved in pLGICs, is an important determinant of the strength of phospholipid interactions at this site. This residue has been shown to interact with phospholipids in other pLGICs and forms the binding site of potentiating neurosteroids in the GABA(A) receptor.

      Weaknesses of this article include the following:

      1) The authors describe in detail state-dependent lipid interactions from the MD simulations; however, the functional significance of these findings is unclear. GLIC function appears to be insensitive to lipids, although this understanding is based on experiments where GLIC proteoliposomes were fused to oocyte membranes, which may not be optimal to control the lipid environment. Without functional studies of GLIC in model membranes, the lipid dependence of GLIC function is not definitively known. Therefore, it is difficult to interpret the meaning of these state-dependent lipid interactions in GLIC.

      2) It is unlikely that the bound phospholipids in the GLIC structures, which are co-purified from e. coli membranes, are POPC. Rather, these are most like PE or PG lipids. While it is difficult to accommodate mixed phospholipid membranes in all-atom MD simulations, the choice of POPC for this model, while practically convenient, seems suboptimal, especially since it is not known if PE or PG lipids modulate GLIC function. Nevertheless, it is striking that the overall binding poses of POPC from the simulations agree with those identified in the structures. It is possible that the identity of the phospholipid headgroup will have more of an impact on the strength of interactions with GLIC rather than the interaction poses (see next point).

      3) The all-atom MD simulations provide limited insight into the strength of the POPC interactions at each site, which is important to interpret the significance of these interactions. It is unlikely that the system has equilibrated within the 1.7 microseconds of simulation for each replicate preventing a meaningful assessment of the lipid interaction times. Although the authors report exchange of up to 4 POPC interacting at certain residues in M4, this may not represent binding/unbinding events (depending on how binding/interaction is defined), since the 4 Å cutoff distance for lipid interactions is relatively small. This may instead be a result of small movements of POPC in and out of this cutoff. The ability to assess interaction times may have been strengthened if the authors performed a single extended replicate up to, for example, 10-20 microseconds instead of extending multiple replicates to 1.7 microseconds.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The authors convincingly show multiple inner and outer leaflet non-protein (lipid) densities in a cryo-EM closed state structure of GLIC, a prokaryotic homologue of canonical pentameric ligand-gated ion channels, and observe lipids in similar sites during extensive simulations at both resting and activating pH. The simulations not only corroborate structural observations, but also suggest the existence of a state-dependent lipid intersubunit site only occupied in the open state. These important findings will be of considerable interest to the ion channel community and provide new hypotheses about lipid interactions in conjunction with channel gating.

      Recommendations for the authors: please note that you control which, if any, revisions, to undertake

      In particular, a discussion of whether the timescale of the simulations permit measurements of residence or interaction times of the lipids should be addressed.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Comment 1.1: The authors may consider expanding the discussion about the significance of state-dependent lipid interactions. On the one hand, they emphasize state-dependent interactions of POPC with closed and open states in the outer leaflet in the results. On the other hand, they state that GLIC is insensitive to its lipid environment. What is the significance of the state-dependent interactions of POPC in GLIC, if any? It is possible that GLIC agonist responses are sensitive to phospholipids (such as PE or PG found in e. coli)? The state-dependent differences in lipid interaction identified in this study support this possibility and suggest the need to better understand the effects of phospholipids on GLIC function.

      Response 1.1: We agree with the reviewer that this is an interesting question and we have therefore extended the discussion with additional references on the functional effects on GLIC of various lipid membranes:

      p. 11 (Discussion)

      “Sampling was further simplified by performing simulations in a uniform POPC membrane. Prior experiments have been conducted to assess the sensitivity of GLIC in varying lipid environments (Labriola et al., 2013; Carswell et al., 2015; Menny et al., 2017), indicating that GLIC remains fully functional in pure POPC bilayers. In our cryo-EM experiments, the protein was recombinantly expressed from E. coli, which means that the experimental density would likely represent phosphatidylglycerol or phosphatidylethanolamine lipids. However, as the molecular identities of bound lipids could not be precisely determined, POPC lipids were built for straightforward comparison with simulation poses. While it appears that GLIC is capable of gating in a pure POPC bilayer, it remains plausible that its function could be influenced by different lipid species, especially due to the presence of multiple charged residues around the TMD/ECD interface which might interact differently with different lipid head groups. Further experiments would be needed to confirm whether the state dependence observed in simulations is also lipid-dependent. It is possible that certain types of lipids bind in one but not the other state, or that certain states are stabilized by a particular lipid type.”

      Comment 1.2: It would be helpful to state in the discussion that the co-purified lipids from GLIC structures are likely PE or PG from e. coli membranes. Nevertheless, it is interesting that the phospholipid poses from the structures generally agree with those identified from the MD simulations using PC.

      Response 1.2: Good point. We have clarified in the discussion that the native lipids in the cryo-EM structure are likely PG or PE lipids, as quoted in the preceding Response.

      Comment 1.3: The authors describe a more deeply penetrating interaction of POPC in the outer intrasubunit cleft in the open state, but this is difficult to appreciate from the images in Fig. 4B, 4E or S3B. The same is true of the deep POPC interaction at the outer intersubunit site. It may be helpful to show these densities from a different perspective to appreciate the depth of these binding poses.

      Response 1.3: We have added Figure 4 – figure supplement 1 to better show the depth of lipid binding poses, especially the ones in the outer leaflet intrasubunit cleft and at the inner intersubunit site, and cited the figure on p. 7 (Results).

      Comment 1.4: The representation of the lipid densities in Fig. 4B is not easy to interpret. First, the meaning of resting versus activating conditions and closed versus open states can be easily missed for readers who are not familiar with the author's previous study. It may be helpful to describe this (i.e. how open and closed state clusters were generated from structures determined in resting and activating conditions) in greater detail in either the figure legend, results or methods. Second, the authors state that there are differences in lipid poses between the closed and open states but not resting and activating conditions. With the exception of the intersubunit density, this is difficult to appreciate from Fig. 4B. As stated in point #3, the difference, for example, in the complementary intrasubunit site may be better appreciated with an image from a different perspective.

      Response 1.4: Acknowledged - the distinction between resting and activating conditions v.s. open and closed states can be confusing. We have tried to clarify these differences at the beginning of the results section, the methods section, and in the caption of Figure 4. Regarding differences in lipid poses between open and closed states, we agree it is difficult to appreciate from Figure 4, but here we refer the reader to Figure 4 – figure supplement 2 for an overlay between open and closed densities. Additionally, we now added Figure 1 – figure supplement 1 which provides lipid densities for all five subunits and overlays with the build cryo-EM lipids, possibly making differences easier to appreciate. Regarding images from different perspectives, we trust the new figure supplement described in Response 1.3 provides a better perspective.

      p. 3 (Results)

      “For computational quantification of lipid interactions and binding sites, we used molecular simulations of GLIC conducted under either resting or activating conditions (Bergh et al., 2021a). As described in Methods, resting conditions corresponded to neutral pH with most acidic residues deprotonated; activating conditions corresponded to acidic pH with several acidic residues protonated. Both open and closed conformations were present in both conditions, albeit with different probabilities.”

      p. 8 (Figure 4)

      “Overlaid densities for each state represent simulations conducted under resting (dark shades) or activating (light shades) conditions, which were largely superimposable within each state.”

      p. 24 (Methods)

      “We analyzed previously published MSMs of GLIC gating under both resting and activating conditions (Bergh et al., 2021a). Resting conditions corresponded to pH 7, at which GLIC is nonconductive in functional experiments, with all acidic residues modeled as deprotonated. Activating conditions corresponded to pH 4.6, at which GLIC is conductive and has been crystallized in an open state (Bocquet et al., 2009). These conditions were modeled by protonating a group of acidic residues (E26, E35, E67, E75, E82, D86, D88, E177, E243; H277 doubly protonated) as previously described (Nury et al., 2011).”

      Comment 1.5: The new closed GLIC structure was obtained by merging multiple datasets. What were the conditions of the datasets used? Was it taken from samples in resting or also activating conditions?

      Response 1.5: We have updated the Results, Discussion, and Methods to clarify this important point, in particular by merging datasets and rerunning the classification:

      p. 3 (Results)

      “In our cryo-EM work, a new GLIC reconstruction was generated by merging previously reported datasets collected at pH 7, 5, and 3 (Rovšnik et al., 2021). The predominant class from the merged data corresponded to an apparently closed channel at an overall resolution of 2.9 Å, the highest resolution yet reported for GLIC in this state (Figure 1 – figure supplement 2, Table 1).”

      p. 11 (Discussion)

      “Interestingly, the occupational densities varied remarkably little between resting and activating conditions (Figure 1 – figure supplement 1), indicating state- rather than pH- dependence in lipid interactions, also further justifying the approach of merging closed- state GLIC cryo-EM datasets collected at different pH conditions to resolve lipids.”

      p. 14 (Methods)

      “After overnight thrombin digestion, GLIC was isolated from its fusion partner by size exclusion in buffer B at pH 7, or in buffer B with citrate at pH 5 or 3 substituted for Tris. The purified protein was concentrated to 3–5 mg/mL by centrifugation. [...] Data from three different grids, at pH 7, 5, and 3, were merged and processed together.”

      Comment 1.6: In Fig. 3D, do the spheres represent the double bond? If so, please state in the legend

      Response 1.6: We have clarified in the legend of Figure 3D that the yellow spheres on the lipid tails represent a double bond.

      Comment 1.7: In Fig. 3E, what is the scale of the color representation?

      Response 1.7: We have clarified in the legend of Figure 3E that colors span 0 (white) to 137015 contacts (dark red).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Comment 2.1: I'm not sure I fully understand how the final lipids were modeled (built). Fig. 1 caption suggests they may have been manually built? I understand that the idea was to place them in the overlap of simulation densities and structure densities, but can the authors please clarify if there were any quantifiable conditions that were employed during this process or if this was entirely manual placement in a pose that looked good? Regardless, it would be helpful to see an overlay of the built lipids with both the cryo and simulation densities (e.g., overly of Fig. 1F/H and G/H) to better visualize how the final built lipids compare.

      Response 2.1: We thank the reviewer for pointing out unclarities regarding our methods. We have extended the methods section to clarify how the lipids were manually built in the cryo-EM structure. We have also added Figure 1 – figure supplement 1 showing overlays of the computational densities and built cryo-EM lipids.

      p. 15 (Methods)

      “Lipids were manually built in COOT by importing a canonical SMILES format of POPC (Kim et al., 2021) and adjusting it individually into the cryo-EM density in each of the sites associated with a single subunit, based in part on visual inspection of lipid densities from simulations, as described above. After building, 5-fold symmetry was applied to generate lipids at the same sites in the remaining four subunits.”

      Comment 2.2: Regarding the state-dependent lipid entry to the outer leaflet intersubunit site associated with channel opening, if the authors could include a movie depicting this process that would be great. The current short explanation does not do this justice. Also, what were the dynamics of this process? Beyond the correlation between site occupancy and the pore being open, how did the timing of lipid entry/exit and pore opening/closing correlate?

      Response 2.2: The point regarding the timing of state-dependent lipid binding at the subunit interface and pore opening is indeed an interesting one. We have added Figure 4 – figure supplement 3D showing that the state-dependent P250 lipid interaction precedes pore opening, as quantified by pore hydration levels, indicating a potential role in gating. The interaction between lipid binding and conformational change of the protein is also depicted in the newly added Figure 4 - video supplement 1, which we hope will be able to better communicate the conclusions regarding state-dependent interactions. We have also expanded the results and discussion to better explain these results:

      p. 9 (Results)

      “The lipid head made particularly close contacts with residue P250 on the M2-M3 loop, which undergoes substantial conformational change away from the pore upon channel opening, along with outer-leaflet regions of M1–M3 (Figure 4E, Figure 4—figure Supplement 3A,B,C, Figure 4—video 1). These conformational changes were accompanied by a flip of M1 residue F195, which blocked the site in the closed state but rotated inward to allow closer lipid interactions in the open state (Figure 4—figure Supplement 3C, Figure 4—video 1). Indeed, P250 was predominantly located within 3 Å of the nearest lipid atom in open- but not closed-state frames (Figure 4F). Despite being restricted to the open state, interactions with P250 were among the longest duration in all simulations (Figure 2C) and as these binding events preceded pore opening, it is plausible to infer a role for this state-dependent lipid interaction in the gating process (Figure 4 – figure supplement 3D).”

      p. 12 (Discussion)

      “The state-dependent binding event at this site preceded pore opening in MSMs, where lipid binding coincided with crossing a smaller energy barrier between closed and intermediate states, followed by pore opening at the main energy barrier between intermediate and open states (Figure 4 – figure supplement 3D). Further, since the P250- lipid interaction was characterized by relatively long residence times (Figure 2), it is possible this lipid interaction has a role to play in GLIC gating.”

      Comment 2.3: Although the interaction times are helpful, I didn't get a great sense of how mobile the lipids are during the simulations. Can the authors discuss this a bit more. For example, are interaction times dominated by lipids that jiggle a bit away from a residue and then back again, vs how often are lipids exchanging with other lipids initially further away from the protein?

      Response 2.3: We have now added various measures of lipid diffusion, both for initially interacting lipids and for bulk lipids, which are summarized in the new Figure 2 – figure supplement 1. We have further addressed the question of simulation timescales in Results, Discussion, and Methods. These numbers highlight that it is possible for lipids several nanometers away from the protein surface to exchange with lipids of the first lipid shell.

      p. 3,6 (Results)

      “Lateral lipid diffusion coefficients were estimated to 1.47 nm2/µs for bulk lipids and 0.68 nm2/µs for lipids of the first lipid shell (Figure 2 – figure supplement 1A), which is relatively slow compared to the timescales of each trajectory (1.7 µs). However, multiple residues throughout the M1, M3, and M4 helices exchanged contacts with 2-4 different lipid molecules in individual simulations (Figure 2C). Furthermore, 1.7-µs root mean square displacement of lipids originally in the first lipid shell was 2.15 nm, and 3.16 nm in the bulk bilayer, indicating such exchanges are not limited to nearby lipids (Figure 2 – figure supplement 1B). Thus, exchange events and diffusion estimates indicate that the duration of lipid contacts observed in this work can be at least partly attributed to interaction stabilities and not solely to sampling limitations.”

      p. 11 (Discussion)

      “Indeed, the unrestrained atomistic MD simulations studied here were not expected to capture the maximal duration of stable contacts, as indicated by some interaction times approaching the full 1.7-µs trajectory (Figure 2}). Nevertheless, simulations were of sufficient length to sample exchange of up to four lipids, particularly around the M4 helix. Calculation of lipid lateral diffusion coefficients resulted in average displacements at the end of simulations of 2.15 nm for lipids initially interacting with the protein surface, roughly corresponding to lipids diffusing out to the 4th lipid shell. Diffusion of bulk lipids was faster, allowing lipids originally 3.16 nm away from the protein surface to ingress the first lipid shell. This observation underscores the potential for lipid exchange events even among lipids initially distant from the protein surface. Of course, duration of exceptionally stable interactions, such as those involving T274 (Figure 2C), inevitably remain bounded by the length of our simulations. Still, diffusion metrics, supported by robust statistical analysis encompassing diverse starting conditions (500 trajectories), enable confident estimation of relative interaction times.“

      p. 13 (Methods)

      “Time-based measures of protein-lipid interactions, such as mean duration times and exchange of interactions, were calculated for the 100 x 1.7 µs-long simulations using prolintpy (Sejdiu and Tieleman, 2021) with a 4 Å interaction cutoff. Analysis of lateral lipid diffusion in individual simulations was carried out for two disjoint sets of lipids: the first lipid shell defined as lipids with any part within 4 Å of the protein surface (~90 lipids), and bulk lipids consisting of all other lipids (~280 lipids). Mean square displacements of each lipid set were calculated using GROMACS 2021.5 (Abraham et al., 2015b) with contributions from the protein center of mass removed. Diffusion coefficients for each set, DA, were calculated using the Einstein relation (Equation 1) by estimating the slope of the linear curve fit to the data.

      where ri(t) is the coordinate of the center of mass of lipid i of set A at time t and DA is the self-diffusion coefficient.”

      Comment 2.4: How symmetric or asymmetric are the cryo and simulation densities across subunits and was there subunit asymmetry in the final build lipids? I could not tell from any of the figures beyond the casual observation that they maybe look somewhat similar in Fig. 1?

      Response 2.4: We thank the reviewer for this useful remark. We have clarified in the methods that the cryo-EM lipids were built in C5-symmetry, and thus the positions are symmetric. The computational densities were calculated independently for each subunit and are thus not necessarily symmetric. We have added Figure 1 – figure supplement 1 showing densities for all five subunits, also serving as an indication of convergence of the results.

      p. 3 (Results) “Although the stochastic nature of simulations resulted in nonidentical lipid densities associated with the five GLIC subunits, patterns of lipid association were notably symmetric (Figure 1 – figure supplement 1).”

      p. 14-15 (Methods)

      “A smaller subset of particles was used to generate an initial model. All subsequent processing steps were done using 5-fold symmetry. […] A monomer of that model was fit to the reconstructed density and 5-fold symmetry was applied with PHENIX 1.19.2-4158 through NCS restraints detected from the reconstructed cryo-EM map, to generate a complete channel. […] After building, 5-fold symmetry was applied to generate lipids at the same sites in the remaining four subunits.”

      Minor comments:

      Comment 2.5: Fig. 1 is probably not easy to follow for the general reader and the caption is very brief. I suggest adding an additional explanation to the caption and/or additional annotations to the figure to help a general reader step through this.

      Response 2.5: We have expanded the caption of Figure 1 and clarified the meanings of colors, labels, and annotations.

      Comment 2.6: Fig. 1B - Caption is confusing. I would not call the state separation lines outlines as they are not closed loops. Also, I see red/orange and two shades of blue whereas the caption mentions orange and blue only. The caption should also explicitly say what the black lines are (other cluster separations).

      Response 2.6: We have edited the caption to better describe colors, annotations, and the meaning of the data:

      p. 4 (Figure 1)

      “(B) Markov state models were used to cluster simulations conducted under resting (R) or activating (A) conditions into five states, including closed (left of the light or dark orange lines) and open (right of the light or dark blue lines). Black lines mark edges of other state clusters derived from MSM eigenvectors. Experimental structures are highlighted as white circles.”

      Comment 2.7: Fig. 3F caption appears to conflict with data where interaction with W217A appears longer than W217. I think the authors want to suggest here that W217A reduces contact time with T274 as stated in the main text.

      Response 2.7: We have clarified in this legend that “Mutation of residue W217, lining this pocket, reveals shortened interactions at the T274 binding site” (p. 6, Figure 3).

      Comment 2.8: Ref 25 and 26 are the same.

      Response 2.8: Apologies; this mistake has been corrected.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary: 

      This study investigated the role of CD47 and TSP1 in extramedullary erythropoiesis by utilization of both global CD47-/- mice and TSP1-/- mice. 

      Strengths:  

      Flow cytometry combined with spleen bulk and single-cell transcriptomics were employed. The authors found that stress-induced erythropoiesis markers were increased in CD47-/- spleen cells, particularly genes that are required for terminal erythroid differentiation. Moreover, CD47 dependent erythroid precursors population was identified by spleen scRNA sequencing. In contrast, the same cells were not detected in TSP1-/- spleen. These findings provide strong evidence to support the conclusion that the differential role of CD47 and TSP1 in extramedullary erythropoiesis in mouse spleen. 

      Weaknesses: 

      Methods and data analysis are appropriate. However, some clarifications are required. The discussion section needs to be expanded.  

      (1) The sex of mice that were used in the study is unknown.  

      (2) In the method of Single-cell RNA sequencing (page 10), it mentioned that single cell suspensions from mouse spleens were depleted of all mature hematopoietic cell lineages by passing through CD8a microbeads and CD8a+ T cell isolation Kit. As described, it is confusing what cell types are obtained for performing scRNAseq. More information is required for clarity.  

      (3) The constitutive CD47 knockout mouse model is utilized in this study. The observed accumulation of erythroid precursors in the spleens of CD47-/- mice suggests a chronic effect of CD47 on spleen function. Can the current findings be extrapolated to acute scenarios involving CD47 knockdown or loss, as this may have more direct relevance to the potential side effects associated with an-CD47-mediated cancer therapy? Please expand on this topic in the discussion section.  

      (1) The missing mouse gender information is incorporated into the revised manuscript. For flow cytometry, two male and two female mice of each genotype were used. For single cell RNA sequencing, two female and one male mouse of each genotype were used. For the bulk RNA sequencing four male cd47−/− mice and four male wildtype mice were used.

      (2) We apologize for the confusing presentation, which has been corrected. The bulk RNA sequencing analysis identified elevated expression of erythropoietic genes in CD8+ spleen cells from cd47−/− versus wildtype mice that were obtained using magnetic bead depletion of all other lineages. Therefore, we used the same Miltenyi negative selection kit as the first step to prepare the cells for single cell RNA sequencing. These untouched cells were then depleted of most mature CD8 T cells using a Miltenyi CD8a(Ly2) antibody positive selection kit. An important consideration underlying this approach was recognizing that the commercial magnetic bead depletion kits used for preparing specific immune cell types are optimized to give relatively pure populations of the intended immune cells using wildtype mice. Our previous experience studying NK cell development in the cd47−/− mice taught us that NK precursors, which are rare in wildtype mouse spleens, accumulate in cd47−/− spleens and were not removed by the antibody cocktail optimized for wildtype spleen cells (Nath et al Front Immunol 2018). The present data indicate that erythroid precursors behave similarly.

      (3) The Discussion was edited as recommended. Anemia is a prevalent side effect of several CD47 therapeutic antibodies being developed for cancer therapy. This anemia would be expected to induce erythropoiesis in bone marrow and possibly at extramedullary sites. Human spleen cells are not accessible to directly evaluate extramedullary erythropoiesis in cancer patients, but analysis of circulating erythroid precursors or liquid biopsy methods could be useful to detect induction of extramedullary erythropoiesis by these therapeutics. We are currently investigating the ability of CD47 antibodies to directly induce erythropoiesis using a human in vitro model.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary: 

      The authors used existing mouse models to compare the effects of ablating the CD47 receptor and its signaling ligand Thrombospondin. The CD47-KO model used in this study was generated by Kim et al, 2018, where hemolytic anemia and splenomegaly was reported. This study analyzes the cell composition of the spleens from CD47-KO and Thsp-KO, focusing on early hematopoietic and erythroid populations. The data broadly shows that splenomegaly in the CD47-KO is largely due to an increase in committed erythroid progenitors as seen by Flow Cytometry and single-cell sequencing, whereas the Thsp-KO shows a slight depletion of committed erythroid progenitors but is otherwise similar to WT in splenic cell composition.  

      Strengths:

      The techniques used are appropriate for the study and the data support the main conclusions of the study. This study provides novel insights into a putative role of Thsp-CD47 signaling in triggering definitive erythropoiesis in the mouse spleen in response to anemic stress and constitutes a good resource for researchers seeking to understand extramedullary erythropoiesis.  

      Weaknesses:

      The Flow cytometry data alone supports the authors' main conclusion and single-cell sequencing confirms them but does not add further information, other than those already observed in the Flow data. The single-cell sequencing analysis and presentation could be improved by using alternate clustering methods as well as separating the data by genotype and displaying them in order for readers to fully grasp the nuanced differences in marker expression between the genotypes. Further, it is not clear from the authors' description of their results whether the increased splenic erythropoiesis is a direct consequence of CD47-KO or a response to the anemic stress in this mouse model. The enrichment of cKit+ Ter119+ Sca1- cells in CD47-KO indicates that these are likely stress erythroid progenitors. Another CD47-KO mouse model (Lindberg et al 1996) has no reported erythroid defects and was also not examined in this study.  

      (1) The reviewer asked, “whether the increased splenic erythropoiesis is a direct consequence of CD47-KO or a response to the anemic stress in this mouse model.” Our data supports both a direct role for CD47 and an indirect role resulting from the response to anemic stress. We cited our previous publications describing increased Sox2+ stem cells in spleens of Cd47 and Thbs1 knockout mice, but we neglected to emphasize another study where we found that bone marrow from cd47−/− mice subjected to the stress of ionizing radiation exhibited more colony forming units for erythroid (CFU-E) and burst-forming unit-erythroid (BFU-E) progenitors compared to bone marrow from irradiated wildtype mice (Maxhimer Sci Transl Med 2009). Taken together, our published data demonstrates that loss of CD47 results in an intrinsic protection of hematopoietic stem cells from genotoxic stress. This function of CD47 is thrombospondin-1-dependent and is consistent with the up-regulation of early erythroid precursors in the spleens of both knockout mice but cannot explain why the Thbs1−/−  mice have fewer committed erythroid precursors than wildtype. We cited studies that documented increased red cell turnover in cd47−/− mice but less red cell turnover in Thbs1−/−  mice compared to wildtype mice. Increased red cell clearance in cd47−/− mice is mediated by loss of the “don’t eat me” function of CD47 on red cells. In wildtype mice, clearance is augmented by thrombospondin-1 binding to the clustered CD47 on aging red cells (Wang, Aging Cell 2020). Thus, anemic stress in the mouse strains studied here decreases in the order cd47−/− > WT > Thbs−/−. This is consistent with the increased committed erythroid progenitors reported here in cd47−/− spleens and decreased committed progenitors in the Thbs1−/− spleens. 

      (2) Based on the reviewer’s question regarding alternative mechanisms and the publication of Yang et al 2022 identifying a role for CD47 in stress erythropoiesis though transfer of mitochondria to erythroblasts, we asked whether cd47-/- erythroid precursors  would show decreased mRNA expression for mitochondrial chromosome genes (new Figure 4−figure supplement 3C). Some of these mRNAs were more abundant in cd47-/- and thbs1-/- erythroid cells, which is the opposite of what we expected based on Yang 2022 but consistent with our previous publications identifying thrombospondin-1 and CD47 as negative regulators of mitochondrial homeostasis in muscle cells and T cells.

      (3) The cd47−/− mice used for the current study are the same strain as those reported by Lindberg et al in 1996, with additional backcrossing onto a C57BL/6 background.

      Recommendations For The Authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Suggestions for improved or additional experiments, data, or analyses.  

      Significant efforts went into analyzing the type of erythroid progenitors by marker expression, but typical Flow cytometry strategies using Ter119 and CD44 combined with forward scatter can be used to stage the committed erythroid progenitors precisely.  

      We appreciate this suggestion to extend the flow data. However, the upcoming retirement of the PI required closing our breeding colony, and the mice are no longer available.  

      How can the difference between the erythroid phenotypes of the Lindberg et al 1996 CD47-KO (exon2 Neo knock-in) and Kim et al 2018 CD47-ko (exon1 26bp indel) be explained?  

      We are not convinced that the erythroid phenotypes of the Lindberg and Kim CD47-KO mice differ at the age used in our studies. Kim et al. focused on progressive hemolytic anemia and changes in T cells in spleen that emerge at 26 weeks age, whereas the mice used here were younger. The Lindberg and Kim mice have similar spleen enlargement at the age we used.

      Another manuscript under review from our lab suggests that cis-regulation of an adjacent colinear gene could contribute to some phenotypes observed when perturbing the Cd47 gene. The Lindberg mouse exhibits minimal perturbation of that adjacent gene, but we have no data regarding the Kim et al mouse. The reviewer’s question brought to our attention that we neglected to state in the Methods that the mice used here are the Lindberg mice, not the Kim mice. This omission is now corrected.

      The authors used Lindberg mouse for 2018 study on NK cells and observed splenomegaly. Did they check for extramedullary erythropoiesis there?  

      Retrospective examination of the RNAseq data for the spleen cells enriched in NK precursors used in our 2018 publication (Nath, 2018) reveals significantly elevated expression for a majority of the extramedullary erythroid markers listed in Table 1, but they were generally less abundant than observed for the lineage-depleted spleen cells used in the present manuscript.   

      Author response table 1.

      To clarify the stress erythropoiesis issue, it might be helpful to examine the sc-seq data for the expression of specific stress erythropoiesis markers in CD47-KO. Targets of BMP4 and Hedgehog signaling can also be examined. Further colony assays can help determine if stress BFU-Es are prevalent in the CD47-KO spleens and depleted in Thsp-KO  

      As noted in Table 1, twelve of the genes we studied are established markers of stress-induced extramedullary erythropoiesis, and most of these were included in the scRNA seq data presented. Our previous publication demonstrated that bone marrow from cd47−/− mice subjected to the stress of ionizing radiation exhibited more colony forming units for erythroid (CFU-E) and burst-forming unit-erythroid (BFU-E) progenitors compared to bone marrow from irradiated wildtype mice (Maxhimer Sci Transl Med 2009). We have not performed colony formation assays using spleen.

      To address the reviewer’s question regarding BMP4 and hedgehog signaling we performed gene set enrichment analysis for known BMP4 and hedgehog signaling signatures. Using GSE26351_UNSTIM_VS_BMP_PATHWAY_STIM_HEMATOPOIETIC_PROGENITORS, cd47-/- cells in cluster 12 or their CD34+ orCD34- subsets did not show significant enrichment for BMP4 targets compared to WT. Thbs1-/- cells in clusters 12 and 14 showed marginally significant depletion of the BMP4 signature (p=0.04 and p=0.023, respectively). Using the KEGG_HEDGEHOG_SIGNALING_PATHWAY, we did not find any significant enrichment. However, only a few genes in this pathway were detectable in the scRNAseq data. These data suggest that the BMP4 signaling may be regulated by thrombospondin-1, but properly testing this hypothesis would require achieving greater sequencing depth combined with a cell isolation method that better enriches the early hematopoietic progenitors that are known to utilize the BMP4 pathway.

      In the reclustering of erythroid progenitors in Figure 5, inclusion of Gata1 as a selection marker may help capture more of the early erythroid progenitors from the dataset and provide a more complete picture of the erythroid populations. 

      We thank the reviewer for suggesting inclusion of Gata1. We repeated the reclustering including Gata1 and found the selected cell count increased from 876 cells to 1007 cells. However, most of the increase was not in the erythroid cluster, which increased from 413 cells to 419 cells. Most of the increase represented Gata1+ T cells (548 cells including Gata1 versus 463 cells without). The revised manuscript presents genotype-dependent differential gene expression based on including Gata1 selection, but none of the specific conclusions were changed from the initial submission. The new Table 4 and Figure 7−figure supplement 1 enabled us to compare differential expression of erythropoietic genes obtained using supervised and unsupervised clustering and show that both methods yield comparable results.

      Just out of curiosity, was there an attempt to make a CD47 Thsp double KO? . Is it viable?  

      Cd47 KO mice are somewhat difficult breeders, and several previous attempts to cross with other transgenics have produced viable homozygous offspring that could not be propagated.

      Recommendations for improving the wring and presentation.  

      Perhaps readers would find it more intriguing if the paper led with the single-cell sequencing showing enrichment of erythroid populations in CD47-KO, and later confirmed with Flow Cytometry (even if this was not necessarily the order in which the experiments were done). 

      We considered this suggestion but believe that some of the flow cytometry data is needed to understand why we focused on CD34+ and CD34- subsets and proliferation markers when analyzing the scRNAseq data

      The single-cell sequencing data in Figure 3 might benefit from UMAP clustering as well. In addition, it would greatly help readers if the data points were separated by genotype and displayed after clustering. A similar analysis has been done in this paper: doi:10.1038/s41556-022-00898-9 by clustering different conditions together but displaying them separately by condition. 

      We initially explored tSNE and UMAP clustering and obtained similar results. We have added violin plots separated by genotype in Figure 4-figure supplement 2. We also included improved clusters separated by genotype in the revised Figure 3 panels C and D and for the reclustering in Figure 6D. UMAP plots provided better presentation for the reclustering (revised Figure 7). All data have been updated to the latest pipeline as noted in the Methods.

      Minor corrections to the text and figures.  

      Figure 4: Labels and plot legends are illegible in general, please relabel manually and if possible, redo plots with bigger font size and legends (relatively easy using ggplot2) 

      All figure panels were relabeled using larger fonts

      Figure 5D: Individual plots are stacked randomly atop each other and in many cases, gene names are not visible. Please restack the layers and ensure that the gene names are visible 

      Panel D was made a separate figure with enlarged labels (now Figure 7).

      Supp Fig 2: Layout can be organized a little better. Consider splitting into two figures for better organization  

      The figure was split as recommended. Now Figure 1-figure supplement 2 and Figure 2-figure supplement

      1.

      Abstract Line 10: "...mRNA expression of Kit, Ermap, and Tfrc, Induction of committed erythroid precursors is...". Replace comma after "Tfrc" with period   

      Done.

      Discussion Page 9 Line 8: "...WT spleens, s. mRNAs for some markers of committed erythroid cells including Nr3c1 mRNA...". Remove ", s" after spleens.   

      Done.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The paper from Hsu and co-workers describes a new automated method for analyzing the cell wall peptidoglycan composition of bacteria using liquid chromatography and mass spectrometry (LC/MS) combined with newly developed analysis software. The work has great potential for determining the composition of bacterial cell walls from diverse bacteria in high-throughput, allowing new connections between cell wall structure and other important biological functions like cell morphology or host-microbe interactions to be discovered. In general, I find the paper to be well written and the methodology described to be useful for the field. However, there are areas where the details of the workflow could be clarified. I also think the claims connecting cell wall structure and stiffness of the cell surface are relatively weak. The text for this topic would benefit from a more thorough discussion of the weak points of the argument and a toning down of the conclusions drawn to make them more realistic.

      Thank you for your thorough and insightful review of our manuscript. We greatly appreciate your positive and constructive feedbacks on our methodology. We have carefully reviewed your comments and have responded to each point as follows:

      Specific points:

      1) It was unclear to me from reading the paper whether or not prior knowledge of the peptidoglycan structure of an organism is required to build the "DBuilder" database for muropeptides. Based on the text as written, I was left wondering whether bacterial samples of unknown cell wall composition could be analyzed with the methods described, or whether some preliminary characterization of the composition is needed before the high-throughput analysis can be performed. The paper would be significantly improved if this point were explicitly addressed in the main text. We apologize for not making it clearer. The prior knowledge of the peptidoglycan structure of an organism is indeed required to build the “DBuilder” database to accurately identify muropeptides; otherwise, the false discovery rate might increase. While peptidoglycan structures of certain organisms might not have been extensively studied, users still remain the flexibility to adapt the muropeptide compositions based on their study, referencing closely related species for database construction. We have addressed this aspect in the main text to ensure a clearer understanding.

      “(Section HAMA platform: a High-throughput Automated Muropeptide Analysis for Identification of PGN Fragments) …(i) DBuilder... Based on their known (or putative) PGN structures, all possible combinations of GlcNAc, MurNAc and peptide were input into DBuilder to generate a comprehensive database that contains monomeric, dimeric, and trimeric muropeptides (Figure 1b)."

      2) The potential connection between the structure of different cell walls from bifidobacteria and cell stiffness is pretty weak. The cells analyzed are from different strains such that there are many possible reasons for the change in physical measurements made by AFM. I think this point needs to be explicitly addressed in the main text. Given the many possible explanations for the observed measurement differences (lines 445-448, for example), the authors could remove this portion of the paper entirely. Conclusions relating cell wall composition to stiffness would be best drawn from a single strain of bacteria genetically modified to have an altered content of 3-3 crosslinks.

      We understand your concern regarding the weak connection between cell wall structure and cell stiffness. We will make a clear and explicit statement in the main text to acknowledge that the cells analyzed are derived from different strains, introducing the possibility of various factors influencing the observed changes in physical measurements as determined by AFM. Furthermore, we greatly appreciate your suggestion to consider genetically modified strains to investigate the role of cross-bridge length in determining cell envelope stiffness. In this regard, we are in the process of developing a CRISPR/Cas genome editing toolbox for Bifidobacterium longum, and we plan on this avenue of investigation for future work.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The authors introduce "HAMA", a new automated pipeline for architectural analysis of the bacterial cell wall. Using MS/MS fragmentation and a computational pipeline, they validate the approach using well-characterized model organisms and then apply the platform to elucidate the PG architecture of several members of the human gut microbiota. They discover differences in the length of peptide crossbridges between two species of the genus Bifidobacterium and then show that these species also differ in cell envelope stiffness, resulting in the conclusion that crossbridge length determines stiffness.

      We appreciate your thoughtful review of our manuscript and your recognition of the potential significance of our work in elucidating the poorly characterized peptidoglycan (PGN) architecture of the human gut microbiota.

      The pipeline is solid and revealing the poorly characterized PG architecture of the human gut microbiota is worthwhile and significant. However, it is unclear if or how their pipeline is superior to other existing techniques - PG architecture analysis is routinely done by many other labs; the only difference here seems to be that the authors chose gut microbes to interrogate.

      We apologize if this could have been clearer. The HAMA platform stands apart from other pipelines by utilizing automatic analysis of LC-MS/MS data to identify muropeptides. In contrast, most of the routine PGN architecture analyses often use LC-UV/Vis or LC-MS platform, where only the automatic analyzing PGFinder software is supported. To our best knowledge, a comparable pipeline on automatically analyzing LC-MS/MS data was reported by Bern et al., which they used commercial Byonic software with an in-house FASTA database and specific glycan modifications. They achieved accurate and sensitive identification on monomer muropeptides, but struggled with cross-linked muropeptides due to the limitations of the Byonic software. We believe that our pipeline introducing the automatic and comprehensive analysis on muropeptide identification (particularly for Gram-positive bacterial peptidoglycans) would be a valuable addition to the field. To enhance clarity, we have adjusted the context as follows:

      (Introduction) … Although they both demonstrated great success in identifying muropeptide monomers, the accurate identification of muropeptide multimers and other various bacterial PGN structures still remains unresolved. This is because deciphering the compositions requires MS/MS fragmentation, but it is still challenging to automatically annotate MS/MS spectra from these complex muropeptide structures."

      I do not agree with their conclusions about the correlation between crossbridge length and cell envelope stiffness. These experiments are done on two different species of bacteria and their experimental setup therefore does not allow them to isolate crossbridge length as the only differential property that can influence stiffness. These two species likely also differ in other ways that could modulate stiffness, e.g. turgor pressure, overall PG architecture (not just crossbridge length), membrane properties, teichoic acid composition etc.

      Regarding the conclusions drawn about the correlation between cross-bridge length and cell envelope stiffness, we understand your point and appreciate your feedback. We revisit this section of our manuscript and tone down the conclusions drawn from this aspect of the study. We also recognize the importance of considering other potential factors that could influence stiffness, as you mentioned above. In light of this, we mentioned the need for further investigations, potentially involving genetically modified strains, in the main text to isolate and accurately determine the impact of bridge length on cell envelope stiffness.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor points:

      1) One thing to consider would be testing the robustness of the analysis pipeline with one the well-characterized bacteria studied, but genetically modifying them to change the cell wall composition in predictable ways. Does the analysis pipeline detect the expected changes?

      We appreciate the reviewer's suggestion and would like to provide a clear response. Regarding to testing the pipeline with genetically modified strains, our lab previously worked on genetically modified S. maltophilia (KJΔmrdA).1 Inactivation of mrdA turned out the increasing level of N-acetylglucosaminyl-1,6-anhydro-N-acetylmuramyl-L-alanyl-D-glutamyl-meso-diamnopimelic acid-D-alanine (GlcNAc-anhMurNAc tetrapeptide) in muropeptide profiles, which is the critical activator ligands for mutant strain ΔmrdA-mediated β-lactamase expression. In this case, our platform could provide rapid PGN analysis for verifying the expected change of muropeptide profiles (see Author response image 1). Besides, if the predictable changes involve genetically modifications on interpeptide bridges within the PGN structure, for example, the femA/B genes of S. aureus, which are encoded for the synthesis of interpeptide bridges,2 our current HAMA pipeline is capable of detecting these anticipated changes. However, if the genetically modifications involve the introduce of novel components to PGN structures, then it would need to create a dedicated database specific to the genetically modified strain.

      Author response image 1.

      2) Line 368: products catalyzed > products formed

      The sentence has been revised.

      “(Section Inferring PGN Cross-linking Types Based on Identified PGN Fragments) …Based on the muropeptide compositional analysis mentioned above, we found high abundances of M3/M3b monomer and D34 dimer in the PGNs of E. faecalis, E. faecium, L. acidophilus, B. breve, B. longum, and A. muciniphila, which may be the PGN products formed by Ldts.”

      3) Lines 400-402: Is it possible the effect is related to porosity, not "hardness".

      Thank you for the suggestion. The possibility of the slower hydrolysis rate of purified PGN in B. breve being related to porosity is indeed noteworthy. While this could be a potential factor, we would like to acknowledge the limited existing literature that directly addresses the relation between PGN architecture and porosity. It is plausible that current methods available for assessing cell wall porosity may have certain limitations, contributing to the scarcity of relevant studies. In light of this, we would like to propose a speculative explanation for the observed effect. It is plausible that the tighter PGN architecture resulting from shorter interpeptide bridges in B. breve could contribute to its harder texture. This speculation is grounded in the concept that a more compact PGN structure might lead to increased stiffness, aligning with our observations of higher cell stiffness in B. breve.

      4) Lines 403-408: See point #2 above.

      Thank you for the suggestion. We have explicitly addressed this point in the main text:

      “(Section Exploring the Bridge Length-dependent Cell Envelope Stiffness in B. longum and B. breve) … Taken all together, we speculate that a tight peptidoglycan network woven by shorter interpeptide bridges or 3-3 cross-linkages could give bacteria stiffer cell walls. However, it is important to note that cell stiffness is a mechanical property that also depends on PGN thickness, overall architecture, and turgor pressure. These parameters may vary among different bacterial strains. Hence, carefully controlled, genetically engineered strains with similar characteristics will be needed to dissect the role of cross-bridge length in cell envelope stiffness.”

      5) Lines 428-429: It is not clear to me how mapping the cell wall architecture provides structural information about the synthetic system. It is also not clear how antibiotic resistance can be inferred. More detail is needed here to flesh out these points.

      Thank you for the suggestion. To provide further clarity on these important aspects, the context in the manuscript has been revised.

      “(Discussion) …Importantly, our HAMA platform provides a powerful tool for mapping peptidoglycan architecture, giving structural information on the PGN biosynthesis system. This involves the ability to infer possible PGN cross-linkages based on the type of PGN fragments obtained from hydrolysis. For instance, the identification of 3-3 cross-linkage formed by L,D-transpeptidases (Ldts) is of particular significance. Unlike 4-3 cross-linkages, the 3-3 cross-linkage is resistant to inhibition by β-Lactam antibiotics, a class of antibiotics that commonly targets bacterial cell wall synthesis through interference with 4-3 cross-linkages. Therefore, by elucidating the specific cross-linkage types within the peptidoglycan architecture, our approach offers insights into antibiotic resistance mechanisms.”

      6) Line 478: "maneuvers are proposed for" > "work is needed to generate". Also, delete "innovative". Also "in silico" > "in silico-based".

      The sentence has been revised.

      “(Discussion) …To achieve a more comprehensive identification of muropeptides, future work is needed to generate an expanded database, in silico-based fragmentation patterns, and improved MS/MS spectra acquisition.”

      7) Line 485: "Its" > "It has potential"

      The sentence has been revised.

      “(Discussion) …It has potential applications in identifying activation ligands for antimicrobial resistance studies, characterizing key motifs recognized by pattern recognition receptors for host-microbiota immuno-interaction research, and mapping peptidoglycan in cell wall architecture studies.”

      8) Figure 1 legend: Define Gb and Pb.

      Gb and Pb are the abbreviations of glycosidic bonds and peptide bonds. We have revised the Figure legend 1 as follow:

      “(Figure legend 1) …(b) DBuilder constructs a muropeptide database containing monomers, dimers, and trimers with two types of linkage: glycosidic bonds (Gb) and peptide bonds (Pb).”

      9) Figure 2: It is hard to see what is going on in panel a and c with all the labels. Consider removing them and showing a zoomed inset with labels in addition to ab unlabeled full chromatogram.

      We apologize for not making this clearer. The panel a and c in Figure 2 were directly generated by the Analyzer as a software screenshot of the peak annotations on chromatogram. Our intention was to present a comprehensive PGN mapping (approximately 70% of the peak area was assigned to muropeptide signals) using this platform. We understand the label density might affect clarity, so we have added the output tables of the whole muropeptide identifications as source data (Table 1–Source Data 1&2). Additionally, we have uploaded the Analyzer output files (see Additional Files), which can be better visualized in the Viewer program, and it also allows users zoom in for detailed labeling information.

      10) Figure 3: It is worth pointing out what features of the MS/MS fingerprints are helping to discriminate between species.

      Thank you for the suggestion. We have revised Figure 3 and the legend as follow:

      “(Figure legend 3) …The sequence of each isomer was determined using in silico MS/MS fragmentation matching, with the identified sequence having the highest matching score. The key MS/MS fragments that discriminate between two isomers are labeled in bold brown.”

      Author response image 2.

      11) Figure 4 and 5 legend: Can you condense the long descriptions of the abbreviations - or at least only refer to them once?

      Certainly, to enhance clarity and conciseness in the figure legends, we have revised Figure legend 5 as follow:

      “(Figure legend 5) …(b) Heatmap displaying …. Symbols: M, monomer; D, dimer; T, trimer (numbers indicate amino acids in stem peptides). Description of symbol abbreviations as in Figure legend 4, with the addition of "Glycan-T" representing trimers linked by glycosidic bonds.”

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      1. Please read the manuscript carefully for spelling errors.

      We appreciate your careful review of our manuscript. We have thoroughly rechecked the entire manuscript for spelling errors and have made the necessary corrections to ensure the accuracy and quality of the text.

      1. Line 46 - "multilayered" is likely only true for Gram-positive bacteria.

      We thank reviewer #2 for bringing up this concern. Indeed, Gram-negative bacteria mostly possess single layer of peptidoglycan, but could be up to three layers in some part of the cell surface.3, 4 In order to reduce the confusion, we have rewritten the context as follow: “(Introduction) …PGN is a net-like polymeric structure composed of various muropeptide molecules, with their glycans linearly conjugated and short peptide chains cross-linked through transpeptidation.”

      1. Methods section: It seems like pellets from a 10 mL bacterial culture were ultimately suspended in 1.5 L (750 mL water + 750 mL tris) - why such a large volume? And how were PG fragments subsequently washed (centrifugation? There is no information on this in the Methods).

      We apologize for the mislabeling on the units. The accurate volume should be “1.5 mL (750 µL water + 750 µL tris)”. We have updated the correct volume in the Methods section (lines 99-100). For the washing process of purified PGN, we added 1 mL water, centrifuged at 10,000 rpm for 5 minutes, and removed supernatant. This information has added to the Methods section (lines 95-98).

      1. Line 183 - why were 6 modifications chose as the cutoff? Please make rationale more clear.

      We thank reviewer #2 for the comments. We set the maximum modification number of 6 in the assumption of one modification on each sugar of a trimeric muropeptide. A lower cutoff could effectively limit the identification of muropeptides with unlikely numbers of modifications, whereas a higher cutoff could allow for having multiple modifications on a muropeptide. In our hand, muropeptide modifications of E. coli are mostly N-deacetyl-MurNAc and anhydro-MurNAc, and modifications of gut microbes used here are mostly N-deacetyl-GlcNAc, anhydro-MurNAc, O-acetyl-MurNAc, loss of GlcNAc, and amidated iso-Glu. While we recommend starting data analysis with the cutoff of 6 modifications, users are free to adjust this based on their studies.

      1. Line 339 - define donor vs. acceptor here (can be added in parentheses after explaining the relevant chemical reactions further above in the text)

      Thank you for the suggestion. To provide greater clarity regarding the roles of the donor and acceptor substrates in the transpeptidation process, we have revised the content in the manuscript as follows:

      “(Section Inferring PGN Cross-linking Types Based on Identified PGN Fragments) …In general, there are two types of PGN cross-linkage…. Transpeptidation involves two stem peptides which function as acyl donor and acceptor substrates, respectively. As the enzyme names imply, the donor substrates that Ddts and Ldts bind to are terminated as D,D-stereocenters and L,D-stereocenters, which structurally means pentapeptides and tetrapeptides. During D,D-transpeptidation, Ddts recognize D-Ala4-D-Ala5 of the donor stem (pentapeptide) and remove the terminal D-Ala5 residue, forming an intermediate. The intermediate then cross-links the NH2 group in the third position of the neighboring acceptor stem, forming a 4-3 cross-link.”

      1. Line 366 following - can you calculate % crosslinks based on these numbers? What does "high abundance" of 3,3 crosslinks mean in this context? Is this the majority of PG?

      Thank you for your questions. Calculating the percentage of crosslinks based on the muropeptide compositional numbers is a valid consideration. However, it's important to note that the muropeptides we analyzed were hydrolyzed by mutanolysin, and as such, deriving an accurate % crosslink value from these data might not provide a true representation of the crosslinking percentage within the PGN network. For a more precise determination of % crosslinks, methods such as solid-phase NMR on purified peptidoglycan would be required. Our research provides insights into the characterization of PGN fragments and allows us to infer potential PGN cross-linkage types and the enzymes involved based on the dominant muropeptide fragments. Regarding the phrase "high abundance" in the context, it indicates that the M3b/M4b monomer and D34 dimer muropeptides represent a significant portion of the hydrolysis products. These muropeptides are major constituents within the PGN fragments obtained from the enzymatic hydrolysis.

      1. Line 375 - I am not sure PG is a meaningful diffusion barrier for drugs and signaling molecules, give that even larger proteins can apparently diffuse through the pores.

      Thank you for raising this point. Peptidoglycan indeed possesses relatively wide pores that allow for the diffusion of larger molecules, including proteins.5 Research has provided a rough estimate of the porosity of the PGN meshwork, suggesting that it allows for the diffusion of proteins with a maximum molecular mass of around 50 kDa.6 Considering this, we acknowledge that PGN may not serve as a significant diffusion barrier for drugs and signaling molecules. The porosity of the PGN scaffold, which is defined by the degree of cross-linking, plays a role in influencing the transport of molecules to the cell membrane. Thus, while PGN may not serve as a strict diffusion barrier, its structural characteristics still impact bacterial cell mechanics and interactions. We have revised the manuscript to reflect this understanding:

      “(Section Exploring the Bridge Length-dependent Cell Envelope Stiffness in B. longum and B. breve) …The porosity of the PGN scaffold, defined by the degree of cross-linking, influences the transport of larger molecules such as proteins. Therefore, modifications to PGN structure are anticipated to significantly affect bacterial cell mechanics and interactions.”

      1. Line 400 - what does "slower hydrolysis rate" refer to, is this chemical hydrolysis or enzymatic (autolysins?). also, I am not sure hydrolysis rate of either modality allows for solid conclusions about how hard (line 402) the PG is.

      Thank you for your comments. The hydrolysis rate here refers to the enzymatic hydrolysis, specifically the mutanolysin cleaving the β-N-acetylmuramyl-(1,4)-N-acetylglucosamine linkage. Indeed, there is no direct correlation between the hydrolysis rate and the hardness of PGN architecture, although the structure rigidity is a key determinant in protein digestion.7 Considering the enzymatic hydrolysis rate depending on the accessibility of the substrate to the enzyme, we proposed that the tighter PGN architecture could also lead to a slower hydrolysis rate. This speculation aligns with our observations of higher cell stiffness or more compact PGN structure of B. breve and its slower hydrolysis rate. We understand this is indirect proof, so the revised sentence now reads:

      “(Section Exploring the Bridge Length-dependent Cell Envelope Stiffness in B. longum and B. breve) …Furthermore, B. breve also showed a slower enzymatic hydrolysis rate in purified PGNs, implying that the cell wall structure of B. breve is characterized by a compact PGN architecture.”

      1. Line 424 - I am not convinced this pipeline can detect PG architectures that other pipelines cannot; likely, the difference between previous analyses and theirs is due to different growth conditions (3,3 crosslink formation is often modulated by environmental factors/growth stage). In the next sentence, it sounds like mutanolysin treatment is a novelty in PG analysis (which it is not).

      We apologize if this could have been clearer and we have revised the paragraph to describe our study more accurately. We agree that different growth conditions could influence PGN architecture and other pipelines could manually identify the PGN architectures or automatically identify them if they are not too complex. Our original intention was to highlight the ability of the HAMA program to automatically identify unreported PGN structure. Here are the revised sentences:

      “(Discussion) …We speculate that this finding may be influenced by the comprehensive mass spectrometric approaches we employed or by variations in growth conditions. Moreover, we utilized the well-established enzymatic method involving mutanolysin to cleave the β-N-acetylmuramyl-(1,4)-N-acetylglucosamine linkage, which preserves the original peptide linkage in intact PGN subunits.”

      1. Line 440- 442: As outlined in more detail above: I don't think you can conclude something about the relationship between bridge length and envelope stiffness based on these data. Thank you for your valuable feedback. We agree that our data may not definitively support the direct conclusion about the relationship between bridge length and envelope stiffness in Bifidobacterium species. Instead, we will rephrase this section to accurately present the observed correlations without overgeneralizing:

      “(Discussion) … Notably, our study suggested a potential correlation between the cell stiffness and the compactness of bacterial cell walls in Bifidobacterium species (Figure 5). B. longum, which predominantly harbors tetrapeptide bridges (Ser-Ala-Thr-Ala), exhibits a trend towards lower stiffness, whereas B. breve, characterized by PGN cross-linked with monopeptide bridges (Gly), demonstrates a trend towards higher stiffness. These findings suggested that it may be correlated between the increased rigidity and the more compact PGN architecture built by shorter cross-linked bridges.”

      References: 1. Huang, Y.-W.; Wang, Y.; Lin, Y.; Lin, C.; Lin, Y.-T.; Hsu, C.-C.; Yang, T.-C., Impacts of Penicillin Binding Protein 2 Inactivation on β-Lactamase Expression and Muropeptide Profile in Stenotrophomonas maltophilia. mSystems 2017, 2 (4), 00077-00017.

      1. Jarick, M.; Bertsche, U.; Stahl, M.; Schultz, D.; Methling, K.; Lalk, M.; Stigloher, C.; Steger, M.; Schlosser, A.; Ohlsen, K., The serine/threonine kinase Stk and the phosphatase Stp regulate cell wall synthesis in Staphylococcus aureus. Sci. Rep. 2018, 8 (1), 13693.

      2. Labischinski, H.; Goodell, E. W.; Goodell, A.; Hochberg, M. L., Direct proof of a "more-than-single-layered" peptidoglycan architecture of Escherichia coli W7: a neutron small-angle scattering study. J. Bacteriol. 1991, 173 (2), 751-756.

      3. Rohde, M., The Gram-Positive Bacterial Cell Wall. Microbiol. Spectr. 2019, 7 (3), gpp3-0044-2018.

      4. Vollmer, W.; Höltje, J. V., The architecture of the murein (peptidoglycan) in gram-negative bacteria: vertical scaffold or horizontal layer(s)? J. Bacteriol. 2004, 186 (18), 5978-5987.

      5. Vollmer, W.; Blanot, D.; De Pedro, M. A., Peptidoglycan structure and architecture. FEMS Microbiol. Rev. 2008, 32 (2), 149-167.

      6. Li, Q.; Zhao, D.; Liu, H.; Zhang, M.; Jiang, S.; Xu, X.; Zhou, G.; Li, C., "Rigid" structure is a key determinant for the low digestibility of myoglobin. Food Chem.: X 2020, 7, 100094.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary

      Type 1 diabetes mellitus (T1DM) progression is accelerated by oxidative stress and apoptosis. Eugenol (EUG) is a natural compound previously documented as anti-inflammatory, anti-oxidative, and anti-apoptotic. In this manuscript by Jiang et al., the authors study the effects of EUG on T1DM in MIN6 insulinoma cells and a mouse model of chemically induced T1DM. The authors show that EUG increases nuclear factor E2-related factor 2 (Nrf2) levels. This results in a reduction of pancreatic beta-cell damage, apoptosis, oxidative stress markers, and a recovery of insulin secretion. The authors highlight these effects as indicative of the therapeutic potential of EUG in managing T1DM.

      Strengths

      Relevant, timely, and addresses an interesting question in the field. The authors consistently observe enhanced beta cell functionality following EUG treatment, which makes the compound a promising candidate for T1DM therapy.

      Weaknesses

      (1) The in vivo experiments have too few biological replicates. With an n=3 (as all figure legends indicate) in complex mouse studies such as these, drawing robust conclusions becomes challenging. It is important to reproduce these results in a larger cohort, to validate the conclusions of the authors.

      Thanks for your comments. In the figure legends of the first draft manuscript, n=3 means at least 3 biological replicates, and in the section of material and methods, n=30 means sample size. The number of mice in each group is 30 and there were 150 mice used in this study, and mice are assigned as follows for the whole in vivo experiments. The relative information has been added in the revised manuscript.

      Author response image 1.

      (2) Another big concern is the lack of quantifications and statistical analysis throughout the manuscript. Although the authors claim statistical significance in various experiments, the limited information provided makes it difficult to verify. The authors use vague and minimal descriptions of their experiments, which further reduces the reader's comprehension and the reproducibility of the experiments.

      Thanks for your constructive suggestion. We conducted quantitative and statistical analysis of the entire manuscript through GraphPad Prism software again. Additionally, we have improved the experimental description in the revised manuscript.

      (3) Finally, the use of Min6 cells as a model for pancreatic beta cells is a strong limitation of this study. Future studies should seek to reproduce these findings in a more translational model and use more relevant in vitro cell systems (eg. Islets).

      Thanks for your professional comments. Mouse insulinoma cells (MIN6 cell line) are permanent cell lines isolated from mouse islet β cell tumors, which can reflect the functional changes of islet β cells. As mature islet cells, MIN6 cells have been widely used in the study of type 1 diabetes mellitus[1-4], so in this study, MIN6 cells were used as the cell model in vitro. In our future studies, we will try to conduct our findings using more relevant in vitro cell systems (eg. Islets).

      References:

      (1) WU M, CHEN W, ZHANG S, et al. Rotenone protects against β-cell apoptosis and attenuates type 1 diabetes mellitus [J]. Apoptosis, 2019, 24(11-12): 879-91.

      (2) LUO C, HOU C, YANG D, et al. Urolithin C alleviates pancreatic β-cell dysfunction in type 1 diabetes by activating Nrf2 signaling [J]. Nutr Diabetes, 2023, 13(1): 24.

      (3) LAKHTER A J, PRATT R E, MOORE R E, et al. Beta cell extracellular vesicle miR-21-5p cargo is increased in response to inflammatory cytokines and serves as a biomarker of type 1 diabetes [J]. Diabetologia, 2018, 61(5): 1124-34.

      (4) LIN Y, SUN Z. Antiaging Gene Klotho Attenuates Pancreatic β-Cell Apoptosis in Type 1 Diabetes [J]. Diabetes, 2015, 64(12): 4298-311.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study by Jiang et al. aims to establish the streptozotocin (STZ)-induced type 1 diabetes mellitus (T1DM) mouse model in vivo and the STZ-induced pancreatic β cell MIN6 cell model in vitro to explore the protective effects of Eugenol (EUG) on T1DM. The authors tried to elucidate the potential mechanism by which EUG inhibits the NRF2-mediated anti-oxidative stress pathway. Overall, this study is well executed with solid data, offering an intriguing report from animal studies for a potential new treatment strategy for T1DM.

      Strengths:

      The in vivo efficacy study is comprehensive and solid. Given that STZ-induced T1DM is a devastating and harsh model, the in vivo efficacy of this compound is really impressive.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The Mechanism is linked with the anti-oxidant property of the compound, which is common for many natural compounds, such as flavonoids and polyphenol. However, rarely, this kind of compound has been successfully developed into therapeutics in clinical usage. Indeed, if that is the case, Vitamin C or Vitamin E could be used here as the positive control.

      Thanks for your comments. In fact, many anti-oxidant drugs are used for the treatment of type 1 diabetes mellitus in the clinical. For example, lipoic acid was used to treat diabetic peripheral neuropathy[5]. Vitamin E could effectively eliminate free radicals, protect cell membranes, and significantly reduce the risk of cardiovascular disease in patients with SPACE or ICARE diabetes[6]. Glutathione played crucial roles in the detoxification and anti-oxidant systems of cells and has been used to treat acute poisoning and chronic liver diseases by intravenous injection[7]. Therefore, eugenol enhances the management of type 1 diabetes mellitus by modulating oxidative stress pathways and holds potential as a future therapeutic choice for clinical application. In the future relevant studies, we will try to use Vitamin C or Vitamin E as the positive control.

      References:

      (5) ZIEGLER D, PAPANAS N, SCHNELL O, et al. Current concepts in the management of diabetic polyneuropathy [J]. J Diabetes Investig, 2021, 12(4): 464-75.

      (6) VARDI M, LEVY N S, LEVY A P. Vitamin E in the prevention of cardiovascular disease: the importance of proper patient selection [J]. J Lipid Res, 2013, 54(9): 2307-14.

      (7) HONDA Y, KESSOKU T, SUMIDA Y, et al. Efficacy of glutathione for the treatment of nonalcoholic fatty liver disease: an open-label, single-arm, multicenter, pilot study [J]. BMC Gastroenterol, 2017, 17(1): 96.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      • For each of the figure panels the authors should indicate the exact number of biological replicates (how many mice or how many independent in vitro experiments). For IF panels, the number of mice, the number of histology slides per mouse, number of fields analyzed should be indicated.

      Thanks for your constructive suggestion. These details had been added in the revised manuscript.

      • The methods state n=30 and Figure 1 states n=3. N=3 is too little for such a complex in vivo study and would severely reduce the reliability of the in vivo experiments.

      Thanks for your suggestion. In the figure legends of the first draft manuscript, n=3 means at least 3 biological replicates, and in the section of material and methods, n=30 means sample size. The number of mice in each group is 30 and there were 150 mice used in this study, and mice are assigned as follows for the whole in vivo experiments. The in vivo experimental data of Figure 1 were supplemented in the revised manuscript.

      • Individual data points should be included in each of the graphs from this manuscript.

      Thanks for your reminder. The revised manuscript have shown the individual data points in each of the graphs.

      • The quantifications and statistics in the manuscript need improvement. Several experiments are missing quantifications and/or statistical tests (e.g. Figure 1J). Other experiments show a quantification but without any explanation of replicates (e.g. Figures 2B and 2G). None of the experiments show individual data points, and as in the previous comment, these should be included.

      Thanks for your comments. In the revised manuscript, statistics and repetitions of experimental data have been supplemented, and individual data points were shown in each graph.

      • What is the reason for intragastric administration? The previous studies on which the dosages were based used oral administration (gavage). (Discussed in methods 4.2).

      Thanks for your professional comments. The intervention treatment of T1DM mice is conducted through two methods: oral administration[8] and oral gavage[9-11]. Due to limited experimental conditions, it is not feasible to feed a single mouse in a single cage, which makes it challenging to precisely control the actual daily intervention dose for each mouse when using oral administration. To ensure that each mouse receives an intervention dose according to its weight and expected dosage, we employ a method of gavage. In addition, oral gavage is more convenient and easier to operate than oral administration. Therefore, in vivo experiment of this study used eugenol gavage intervention as a treatment method. These details had been added in the revised manuscript.

      References:

      (8) ZHAO H, WU H, DUAN M, et al. Cinnamaldehyde Improves Metabolic Functions in Streptozotocin-Induced Diabetic Mice by Regulating Gut Microbiota [J]. Drug Des Devel Ther, 2021, 15: 2339-55.

      (9) XING D, ZHOU Q, WANG Y, et al. Effects of Tauroursodeoxycholic Acid and 4-Phenylbutyric Acid on Selenium Distribution in Mice Model with Type 1 Diabetes [J]. Biol Trace Elem Res, 2023, 201(3): 1205-13.

      (10) SUDIRMAN S, LAI C S, YAN Y L, et al. Histological evidence of chitosan-encapsulated curcumin suppresses heart and kidney damages on streptozotocin-induced type-1 diabetes in mice model [J]. Sci Rep, 2019, 9(1): 15233.

      (11) YAO H, SHI H, JIANG C, et al. L-Fucose promotes enteric nervous system regeneration in type 1 diabetic mice by inhibiting SMAD2 signaling pathway in enteric neural precursor cells [J]. Cell Commun Signal, 2023, 21(1): 273.

      • Urine volume cannot be specified per mouse (methods 4.4) unless the mice were single-housed or if the different groups were not mixed, both are not ideal study set-ups. Please clarify in the methods section.

      Thanks for your constructive suggestion. After successful modeling of T1DM mice, the successful modeling mice were grouped based on method 4.2 as follows Control, T1DM, T1DM + EUG (5 mg/kg/day), T1DM + EUG (10 mg/kg/day), and T1DM + EUG (20 mg/kg/day). To ensure consistency among groups, each group consisted of 5 mice and had equal amounts of diet (100 g), drinking water (250 mL), and environmental conditions for feeding. The urine-soaked area of mice in each group was recorded to quantify the urine volume. The conditions are the same for each group. The description of Method 4.4 has been improved in the revised manuscript.

      • OGTT (Figure 1H) of week 2 is missing. This is an important control time point, as it would show the effect of STZ before EUG treatment.

      Thanks for your careful review. OGTT (Figure 1H) of week 2 has been added in the revised manuscript.

      • In Figure 1J, the control group does not follow the expected ITT trajectory. If possible, add the 120-minute time point to see if the blood glucose levels return to baseline in the control group. The graph shows increased basal glucose levels in the experimental groups, but no differences in insulin tolerance. It also misses the AUC calculations. It is probably not significantly different, which should be noted in the text.

      Thanks for your suggestion. T1DM primarily manifests as pancreatic β cell damage and the absolute reduction of insulin secretion, resulting in the disorder of glucose metabolism in vivo. The oral glucose tolerance test (OGTT) is a series of plasma glucose concentrations measured within 2 h after oral gavage of a certain amount of glucose. It is a standard method to evaluate an individual's blood glucose regulation ability and to understand the function of islet β cells. Insulin resistance means reducing the efficiency of insulin to promote glucose uptake and utilization for various reasons, and the body's compensatory secretion of excessive insulin leads to hyperinsulinemia to maintain the stability of blood glucose. The insulin resistance test (ITT) is commonly employed to detect insulin resistance in T2DM. However, it was found that the ITT experiment had little correlation with T1DM. Therefore, the ITT experiment of Figure 1J and related description have been removed from the revised manuscript.

      • The staining and FACS data on the effects of STZ+EUG+/- ML385 are not convincing (Figure 6 and Figure 7) and do not seem to align with the bar graphs and the conclusions in the text. It would be good to include immunofluorescent staining for insulin to further validate the effects of STZ+EUG+/- ML385 on insulin expression.

      Thanks for your comments.

      (1) In the revised manuscript, between the statistical results and the pictures, so we re-conducted the statistics of the immunofluorescence results of NRF2 and HO-1, as follows:

      (1) NRF2 immunofluorescence staining:

      Author response image 2.

      Group 1

      Author response image 3.

      Group 2

      Author response image 4.

      Group 3

      Author response image 5.

      Group 4

      Author response image 6.

      Group 5

      Author response image 7.

      NRF2 immunofluorescence staining statistics:

      (2) HO-1 immunofluorescence staining:

      Author response image 8.

      Group 1

      Author response image 9.

      Group 2

      Author response image 10.

      Group 3

      Author response image 11.

      Group 4

      Author response image 12.

      Group 5

      Author response image 13.

      HO-1 immunofluorescence staining statistics:

      (2) The meanings represented by each quadrant of cell flow analysis are as follows: Q1 represents a group of necrotic cells, characterized by positive PI staining and negative Anenexin V staining; Q2 represents late apoptotic cells, with both PI and Anenexin V staining negative; Q3 represents early apoptotic cells, with both PI and Anenexin V staining positive; Q4 represents living cells, characterized by positive Anenexin V staining and negative PI staining. In the experiment, the number of apoptotic cells were calculated as the sum of late apoptotic cells in Q2 and early apoptotic cells in Q3. As shown in Figure 9F-G, these results were consistent with those observed in Figure 6G, 6J and Figure 7D-F.

      (3) MIN6 cells, as mouse islet β cell line, has the function of secreting insulin. The intervention of STZ was an absolute decrease in the number of islet β cells, so the result of insulin immunofluorescence staining was only a decrease in the number of MIN6 cells in each cell group. In addition, the detection of insulin protein expression level is always through ELISA method to assess the secretion of insulin protein in the cell supernatant. Figure 6E is the ELISA results of insulin protein secretion in the cell supernatant.

      • The experimental design for the in vitro experiments was unclear from the text. Consider including a schematic to show when cells were treated with STZ, EUG, and ML385.

      Thanks for your suggestion. The experimental design for the in vitro experiments of this study has been added in Figure 6A of the revised manuscript.

      • As stated in the Discussion, the use of the insulinoma line Min6 as a model instead of primary pancreatic beta cells is a clear limitation of the study. The mechanistic data would be stronger if validated on a more relevant system (eg. untransformed Islets).

      Thanks for your comments. Mouse insulinoma cells (MIN6 cell line) are permanent cell lines isolated from mouse islet β cell tumors, which can reflect the functional changes of islet β cells. As mature islet cells, MIN6 cells have been widely utilized as an in vitro cellular model for diabetes research to investigate the functionality of β cells within pancreatic islets[1, 2, 12]. So in this study, MIN6 cells were used as the cell model in vitro. In our future studies, we will try to conduct our findings using more relevant in vitro cell systems (eg. Islets).

      References:

      (1) WU M, CHEN W, ZHANG S, et al. Rotenone protects against β-cell apoptosis and attenuates type 1 diabetes mellitus [J]. Apoptosis, 2019, 24(11-12): 879-91.

      (2) LUO C, HOU C, YANG D, et al. Urolithin C alleviates pancreatic β-cell dysfunction in type 1 diabetes by activating Nrf2 signaling [J]. Nutr Diabetes, 2023, 13(1): 24.

      (12) CHEN H, LOU Y, LIN S, et al. Formononetin, a bioactive isoflavonoid constituent from Astragalus membranaceus (Fisch.) Bunge, ameliorates type 1 diabetes mellitus via activation of Keap1/Nrf2 signaling pathway: An integrated study supported by network pharmacology and experimental validation [J]. J Ethnopharmacol, 2024, 322: 117576.

      • The use of small molecule inhibitors such as ML385 can have unspecific effects. Genetic manipulation or the use of siRNAs to inhibit the NRF2 pathway would have been preferable for the in vitro experiments.

      Thanks for your constructive suggestion. ML385 is a commonly used and stable inhibitor of the NRF2 and has been used in a variety of disease studies[13-15]. The MIN6 cells utilized in this study were cultured under challenging conditions and exhibited a sluggish growth rate. Owing to the cytotoxicity associated with siRNAs transfection reagents, a significant proportion of MIN6 cells succumbed following transfection. Consequently, small molecule inhibitors ML385 were employed in this investigation. In our future studies, we will try to conduct our findings using siRNAs.

      References:

      (13) DANG R, WANG M, LI X, et al. Edaravone ameliorates depressive and anxiety-like behaviors via Sirt1/Nrf2/HO-1/Gpx4 pathway [J]. J Neuroinflammation, 2022, 19(1): 41.

      (14) WANG Z, YAO M, JIANG L, et al. Dexmedetomidine attenuates myocardial ischemia/reperfusion-induced ferroptosis via AMPK/GSK-3β/Nrf2 axis [J]. Biomed Pharmacother, 2022, 154: 113572.

      (15) LI J, DENG S H, LI J, et al. Obacunone alleviates ferroptosis during lipopolysaccharide-induced acute lung injury by upregulating Nrf2-dependent antioxidant responses [J]. Cell Mol Biol Lett, 2022, 27(1): 29.

      • The study proposes a mechanism in which EUG-induced disruption of KEAP1 and NRF2 interaction leads to NRF2 translocation to the nucleus and upregulation of proteins required to prevent oxidative stress. In Figure 6H it is unclear whether the nuclear NRF2 increases. Please add quantifications of the immunostainings.

      Thanks for your reminder. Figure 6J shows the quantifications of the immunostainings of NRF2 in the revised manuscript.

      • Some of the figure legends lack important information. In Figure 5A, 6E for instance, what is the protein expression normalized to?

      Thanks for your constructive suggestion. Protein normalization refers to the standardization of proteins from different sources and with different properties, so as to facilitate the comparison of protein content and expression in different samples. In WB experiment, protein expression normalization is one of the essential steps. Western blot of nuclear protein generally cannot be performed using β-Actin as an internal reference. Lamin B was chosen because β-Actin is an intrinsic parameter not found in the nucleus. N-NRF2, as a nuclear protein, requires Lamin B as a reference for protein normalization. The lack important information of WB in Figure have been supplemented in figure legends of the revised manuscript.

      • Please acknowledge previous literature on the effects of EUG/clove oil in diabetes models. The meta-analytical review by Carvalho et al. (DOI: 10.1016/j.phrs.2020.105315) should be cited and discussed.

      Thanks for your suggestion. It has been cited and discussed in the revised manuscripts.

      • Consider revising the text for grammar, language mistakes, and readability. The text is not always precise (e.g. in the explanation of gamma-H2AX in the results), does not explain terminology (e.g. the oxidative stress markers - line 204+205), or simplifies conclusions (e.g. "improved islet function" based on glucose tolerance test", line 129).

      Thanks for your comments. The above problem has been solved in the revised manuscripts. In addition, we had send our manuscript to the professional English language editing company to improve our paper, and the editorial certificate had been submitted as a supplement document.

      • In the current format, some figures are out of focus. Please make sure to upload a high-quality version for publication.

      Thanks for your suggestion. A high quality version figures has been uploaded. Perhaps due to the excessive content of the file after upload, the file is compressed, and the figures is not focused. So, all figures in this study have been uploaded separately for download in the review system.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Below are specific points of criticism on the experiments presented.

      (1a) There is no comparison among eugenol treatments with regards to fasting weight, blood glucose, water intake, food intake, and, crucially, OGTT. All three treatments appear to show very similar effects but has this been statistically assessed? Shown statistical significance of ketonuria between no and high eugenol treatments seems exaggerated.

      Thanks for your comments. EUG intervention has a dose-dependent effect on T1DM. According to Figure 1B-I, 20 mg/kg EUG has the best effect. Fasting body weight, blood glucose, water intake, food intake, and OGTT were statistically assessed in Figure 1 of the revised manuscript. In addition, we performed statistical analyse of ketonuria between no and high eugenol treatments again in the revised manuscript. In the revised manuscript, we have also made objective revisions to the expression of eugenol's efficacy.

      (b) ITT is not used to detect T1DM (line 126).

      Thanks for your suggestion. T1DM primarily manifests as pancreatic β cell damage and the absolute reduction of insulin secretion, resulting in the disorder of glucose metabolism in vivo. The oral glucose tolerance test (OGTT) is a series of plasma glucose concentrations measured within 2 h after oral gavage of a certain amount of glucose. It is a standard method to evaluate an individual's blood glucose regulation ability and to understand the function of islet β cells. Insulin resistance means reducing the efficiency of insulin to promote glucose uptake and utilization for various reasons, and the body's compensatory secretion of excessive insulin leads to hyperinsulinemia to maintain the stability of blood glucose. The insulin resistance test (ITT) is commonly employed to detect insulin resistance in T2DM. However, it was found that the ITT experiment had little correlation with T1DM. Therefore, the ITT experiment and related description have been removed in the revised manuscript.

      (2) Here it is hard to reconcile the gradual increase of Ins protein levels in (STZ) and (STZ + increasing eugenol) samples with(a) results in 1 suggesting that the dose of eugenol does not significantly affect the outcome and(b) Ins expression, which is essentially undetectable in both STZ and STZ+EUG mice. A likely explanation is that EUG just postpones beta cell death. I assume that these analyses were done in week 10 but it is not stated.

      Thanks for your professional suggestion. Perhaps because the file is compressed, the gray value of WB strip is not obvious, so the expression of INS is not seen clearly. In fact, the intervention of STZ resulted in a significant decrease in INS expression compared with the Control group, which could be alleviated by the treatment of EUG. However, due to the large difference in INS between the STZ group, EUG treatment, and the Control group, the gray values of INS in the STZ group and the STZ + EUG group were not clear. As mentioned in the method 4.12-4.13, our WB and PCR samples were from 10 week mice.

      (3) The γH2Ax stainings provided are weak and do not fully correspond to the quantitation - the 5 mg/Kg EUG treatment appears less severe than the 10 mg/Kg. In contrast, changes in the PCD pathway are convincingly demonstrated.

      Thanks for your reminder. γH2AX immunohistochemical staining is required to be located in the islets. It measured the number of β cells stained with brown, not the brown area. The ZOOM image of γH2AX staining showed that the EUG improvement effect of 10 mg/kg was better than that of 5 mg/kg. γH2AX, as a marker of DNA damage, exhibits nuclear localization and is absent in the cytoplasmic compartment. Therefore, in Figure 4C-D, we quantified the proportion of cells exhibiting brown staining. In Figure 4C, black arrows were employed to highlight the presence of brown-stained islet β cells.

      (4) Is there a reason for looking at mRNA levels of Ho-1 but not KEAP1 or NQO-1 ? What is the expression of Nrf2 itself at the RNA level? Please give in the text what the abbreviations MDA, SOD, CAT GSH-Px stand for. Are these protein levels or activity assays? Units in the y-axis of graphs?

      Thanks for your constructive suggestion.The required KEAP1 and NQO-1 primers have been synthesized, and the relevant data have been supplemented in the revised manuscript. The expression of Nrf2 itself at the RNA level is T-NRF2 (Total NRF2). The MDA, SOD, CAT and GSH-Px abbreviations stand for Malondialdehyde, Superoxide dismutase, Catalase, Glutathione peroxidase, and the relevant information, which have been supplemented in the revised manuscript. These are activity assays of serum, and units in the y-axis of graphs have been added in the revised manuscripts.

      (5) The Ins levels in the culture medium of STZ + ML treated cells are much lower than the levels in STZ treated cells (6D). This is not consistent with the results of Ins cell content or Ins expression as stated (6B and D).

      Thanks for your careful review. The experimental samples in Figure 6C in the revised manuscript represent the proteins extracted from cells of each group, while the experimental samples in Figure 6E represent the supernatant of cells from each group. ML385 is an inhibitor of NRF2, which effectively suppresses the NRF2 signaling pathway and aggravates MIN6 cell damage, resulting in lower INS expression observed in both the STZ+ML385 group depicted in Figures 6C and 6E compared to that in the STZ group. Although the sample sources of the two groups differ and there are slight variations in the trend, it can be observed that the overall trend of the STZ+ML385 group is comparatively lower than that of the STZ group.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Chen et al. identified the role of endocardial id2b expression in cardiac contraction and valve formation through pharmaceutical, genetic, electrophysiology, calcium imaging, and echocardiography analyses. CRISPR/Cas9 generated id2b mutants demonstrated defective AV valve formation, excitation-contraction coupling, reduced endocardial cell proliferation in AV valve, retrograde blood flow, and lethal effects.

      Strengths:

      Their methods, data and analyses broadly support their claims.

      Weaknesses:

      The molecular mechanism is somewhat preliminary.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive assessment of our work. A detailed point-by-point response has been incorporated in the response to “Recommendations for the authors” section.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Biomechanical forces, such as blood flow, are crucial for organ formation, including heart development. This study by Shuo Chen et al. aims to understand how cardiac cells respond to these forces. They used zebrafish as a model organism due to its unique strengths, such as the ability to survive without heartbeats, and conducted transcriptomic analysis on hearts with impaired contractility. They thereby identified id2b as a gene regulated by blood flow and is crucial for proper heart development, in particular, for the regulation of myocardial contractility and valve formation. Using both in situ hybridization and transgenic fish they showed that id2b is specifically expressed in the endocardium, and its expression is affected by both pharmacological and genetic perturbations of contraction. They further generated a null mutant of id2b to show that loss of id2b results in heart malformation and early lethality in zebrafish. Atrioventricular (AV) and excitation-contraction coupling were also impaired in id2b mutants. Mechanistically, they demonstrate that Id2b interacts with the transcription factor Tcf3b to restrict its activity. When id2b is deleted, the repressor activity of Tcf3b is enhanced, leading to suppression of the expression of nrg1 (neuregulin 1), a key factor for heart development. Importantly, injecting tcf3b morpholino into id2b-/- embryos partially restores the reduced heart rate. Moreover, treatment of zebrafish embryos with the Erbb2 inhibitor AG1478 results in decreased heart rate, in line with a model in which Id2b modulates heart development via the Nrg1/Erbb2 axis. The research identifies id2b as a biomechanical signaling-sensitive gene in endocardial cells that mediates communication between the endocardium and myocardium, which is essential for heart morphogenesis and function.

      Strengths:

      The study provides novel insights into the molecular mechanisms by which biomechanical forces influence heart development and highlights the importance of id2b in this process.

      Weaknesses:

      The claims are in general well supported by experimental evidence, but the following aspects may benefit from further investigation:

      (1) In Figure 1C, the heatmap demonstrates the up-regulated and down-regulated genes upon tricane-induced cardiac arrest. Aside from the down-regulation of id2b expression, it was also evident that id2a expression was up-regulated. As a predicted paralog of id2b, it would be interesting to see whether the up-regulation of id2a in response to tricane treatment was a compensatory response to the down-regulation of id2b expression.

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. As suggested, we performed qRT-PCR analysis to assess id2a expression in tricaine-treated heart. Our results demonstrate a significant upregulation of id2a following the inhibition of cardiac contraction, suggesting a potential compensatory response to the decreased id2b. These new results have been incorporated into the revised manuscript (Figure 1D).

      (2) The study mentioned that id2b is tightly regulated by the flow-sensitive primary cilia-klf2 signaling axis; however aside from showing the reduced expression of id2b in klf2a and klf2b mutants, there was no further evidence to solidify the functional link between id2b and klf2. It would therefore be ideal, in the present study, to demonstrate how Klf2, which is a transcriptional regulator, transduces biomechanical stimuli to Id2b.

      We have examined the expression levels of id2b in both klf2a and klf2b mutants. The whole mount in situ results clearly demonstrate a decrease in id2b signal in both mutants (Figure 3E). As noted by the reviewer, klf2 is a transcriptional regulator, suggesting that the regulation of id2b may occur at the transcriptional level. However, dissecting the molecular mechanisms underlying the crosstalk between klf2 and id2b is beyond the scope of the present study.

      (3) The authors showed the physical interaction between ectopically expressed FLAG-Id2b and HA-Tcf3b in HEK293T cells. Although the constructs being expressed are of zebrafish origin, it would be nice to show in vivo that the two proteins interact.

      We thank the reviewer for this insightful comment. As suggested, we synthesized Flag-id2b and HA-tcf3b mRNA and co-injected them into 1-cell stage zebrafish embryos. We collected 100-300 embryos at 12, 24, and 48 hpf and performed western blot analysis using the same anti-HA and anti-Flag antibodies validated in HEK293 cell experiments. Despite multiple independent attempts, we were unable to detect clear bands of the tagged proteins in zebrafish embryos. We speculate that this could be due to mRNA instability, translational efficiency, or the low abundance of Id2b and Tcf3b proteins. We have acknowledged these technical limitations in the revised manuscript and clarified that the HEK293 cell data support a potential interaction between Id2b and Tcf3b, while confirming their endogenous interaction will require further investigations (Lines 295-296).

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      How mechanical forces transmitted by blood flow contribute to normal cardiac development remains incompletely understood. Using the unique advantages of the zebrafish model system, Chen et al make the fundamental discovery that endocardial expression of id2b is induced by blood flow and required for normal atrioventricular canal (AVC) valve development and myocardial contractility by regulating calcium dynamics. Mechanistically, the authors suggest that Id2b binds to Tcf3b in endocardial cells, which relieves Tcf3b-mediated transcriptional repression of Neuregulin 1 (NRG1). Nrg1 then induces expression of the L-type calcium channel component LRRC1. This study significantly advances our understanding of flow-mediated valve formation and myocardial function.

      Strengths:

      Strengths of the study are the significance of the question being addressed, use of the zebrafish model, and data quality (mostly very nice imaging). The text is also well-written and easy to understand.

      Weaknesses:

      Weaknesses include a lack of rigor for key experimental approaches, which led to skepticism surrounding the main findings. Specific issues were the use of morpholinos instead of genetic mutants for the bmp ligands, cilia gene ift88, and tcf3b, lack of an explicit model surrounding BMP versus blood flow induced endocardial id2b expression, use of bar graphs without dots, the artificial nature of assessing the physical interaction of Tcf3b and Id2b in transfected HEK293 cells, and artificial nature of examining the function of the tcf3b binding sites upstream of nrg1.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive assessment and the constructive suggestions. We have performed additional experiments and data analysis to address these issues. A detailed point-by-point response has been incorporated in the response to “Recommendations for the authors” section.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Questions/Concerns:

      (1) In the introduction, it would be beneficial to include background information on the id2b gene, what is currently known about its function in heart development/regeneration and in other animal models than just the zebrafish.

      We thank the reviewer for the constructive suggestion. In the revised manuscript, we have added a paragraph in the Introduction to provide background on id2b and its role in heart development. Specifically, we discuss its function as a member of the ID (inhibitor of DNA binding) family of helix-loop-helix (HLH) transcriptional regulators and highlight its involvement in cardiogenesis in both zebrafish and mouse models. These additions help place our findings in a broader developmental and evolutionary context (Lines 91-100).

      (2) Of the 6 differentially expressed genes identified in Figure 1C, why did the authors choose to focus on id2b and not the other 5 downregulated genes?

      We thank the reviewer for the comments. As suggested, we have added a sentence in the revised manuscript to clarify the rationale for selecting id2b as the focus of the present study (Lines 117-121).

      (3) As the authors showed representative in situ images for id2b expression with blebbistatin treatment in Figure 1E, and tnn2a MO in Figure 1F, it would also be beneficial to show relative mRNA expression levels for id2b in conditions of blebbistatin treatment and tnn2a MO knockdown. In Fig. 1C: id2b is downregulated with tricaine, but id2a is upregulated with tricaine. Do these genes perform similar or different functions, results of gene duplication events?

      We thank the reviewer for the thoughtful suggestion. Our in situ hybridization results demonstrate reduced id2b expression following tricaine, blebbistatin, and tnn2 morpholino treatment. To further validate these observations and enhance cellular resolution, we generated an id2b:eGFP knockin line. Analysis of this reporter line confirmed a significant reduction in id2b expression in the endocardium upon inhibition of cardiac contraction and blood flow (Figure 3A-D), supporting our in situ results. The divergent expression patterns of id2a and id2b in response to tricaine treatment likely reflect functional specification following gene duplication in zebrafish. While our current study focuses on characterizing the role of id2b in zebrafish heart development, the specific function of id2a remains to be determined. 

      (4) In Fig. 2b, could the authors compare the id2b fluorescence with RNAscope ISH at 24, 48, and 72 hpf? RNAscope ISH allows for the visualization of single RNA molecules in individual cells. The authors should at least compare these in the heart to demonstrate that id2b accurately reflects the endogenous id2b expression. In Fig. 2E: Suggest showing the individual fluorescent images for id2b:eGFP and kdrl:mCherry in the same colors as top panel images instead of in black and white. In Fig. 2F: The GFP fluorescence from id2b:eGFP signals looks overexposed.

      We thank the reviewer for the valuable comment. In response, we attempted RNAscope in situ hybridization on embryos carrying the id2b:eGFP reporter to directly compare fluorescent reporter expression with endogenous id2b transcripts. However, we encountered a significant reduction in id2b:eGFP fluorescence following the RNAscope procedure, and even subsequent immunostaining with anti-GFP antibodies yielded only weak signals. Despite this technical limitation, the RNAscope results independently confirmed id2b expression in endocardial cells (Figure 2E), supporting the specificity and cell-type localization observed with the reporter line. As suggested by the reviewer, we have updated Figure 2G to display id2b:eGFP and kdrl:mCherry images in the same color scheme as the top panel to improve consistency and clarity. Additionally, we have replaced the images in Figure 2F to avoid overexposure and better represent the spatial distribution of id2b:eGFP in adult heart.

      (5) In Fig. 3A: are all the images in panel A taken with the same magnification? In Fig. 3e, could the authors show the localization of klf2 and id2b and confirm their expression in the same endocardial cells? In Fig. 3, the authors conclude that klf2-mediated biomechanical signaling is essential for activating id2b expression. This statement is somewhat overstated because they only demonstrated that knockout of klf2 reduced id2b expression.

      We thank the reviewer for these constructive comments. All images presented in Figure 3A were captured using the same magnification, as now clarified in the revised figure legend. We appreciate the reviewer’s question regarding the localization of klf2 and id2b. While we were unable to directly visualize both markers in the same embryos due to the current unavailability of klf2 reporter lines, prior studies using klf2a:H2B-eGFP transgenic zebrafish have demonstrated that klf2a is broadly expressed in endocardial cells, with enhanced expression in the atrioventricular canal region (Heckel et al., Curr Bio 2015, PMID: 25959969; Gálvez-Santisteban et al., Elife 2019, PMID: 31237233). Our id2b:eGFP reporter analysis revealed a similarly broad endocardial expression pattern. These independent observations support the likelihood that klf2a and id2b are co-expressed in the same endocardial cell population.   

      We also appreciate the reviewer’s comments regarding the connection between biomechanical signaling and id2b expression. Previous studies have already established that biomechanical cues directly regulate klf2 expression in zebrafish endocardial cells (Vermot et al., Plos Biol 2009, PMID: 19924233; Heckel et al., Curr Bio 2015, PMID: 25959969). In the present study, we observed a significant reduction in id2b expression in both klf2a and klf2b mutants, suggesting that id2b acts downstream of klf2. These observations together establish the role of biomechanical cues-klf2-id2b signaling axis in endocardial cells. Nevertheless, we agree with the reviewer that further investigation is required to elucidate the precise mechanism by which klf2 regulates id2b expression.

      (6) In Fig. 4: What's the mRNA expression for id2b in WT and id2b mutant fish hearts?

      We performed qRT-PCR analysis on purified zebrafish hearts and observed a significant reduction in id2b mRNA levels in id2b mutants compared to wild-type controls. These new results have been incorporated into the revised manuscript (Figure 4A).

      (7) In Fig. 5E, the heart rate shows no difference between id2b+/+ and id2b-/- fish according to echocardiography analysis. However, Fig. 5B indicates a difference in heart rate. Could the authors explain this discrepancy?

      We thank the reviewer for this insightful observation. In our study, we observed a reduction in heart rate in id2b mutants during embryonic stages (120 hpf), as shown in Figure 5B. However, this difference was not evident in adult fish based on echocardiography analysis (Figure 5E). While the exact reason for these changes during development remains unclear, it is possible that the reduction in cardiac output observed in id2b mutants during early development triggers compensatory mechanisms over time, ultimately restoring heart rate in adulthood. Given that heart rate is primarily regulated by pacemaker activity, further investigation will be required to determine whether such compensatory adaptations occur and to elucidate the underlying mechanisms.

      (8) In Fig. 6A: it's a little hard to read the gene names in the left most image in the panel. In Fig. 6B, the authors conducted qRT-PCR analysis of 72 hpf embryonic hearts and validated decreased nrg1 levels in id2b-/- compared to control. Since nrg1 is not specifically expressed in endocardial cells in the developing heart, the authors should isolate endocardial cells and compare nrg1 expression in id2b-/- to control. This would ensure that the loss of id2b affects nrg1 expression derived from endocardial cells rather than other cell types. In Supp Figure S6: Suggest adding an image of the UMAP projection to show tcf3b expression in endocardial cells from sequencing analysis.

      We thank the reviewer for these helpful suggestions. In response, we have increased the font size of gene names in the leftmost panel of Figure 6A to improve readability. Regarding nrg1 expression, we acknowledge the importance of assessing its cell-type specificity. Unfortunately, due to the lack of reliable transgenic or knock-in tools for nrg1, its precise expression pattern in embryonic hearts remains unclear. We attempted to isolate endocardial cells from embryonic hearts using FACS, but the limited number of cells obtained at this stage precluded reliable qRT-PCR analysis. Nonetheless, our data show that id2b is specifically expressed in endocardial cells, and publicly available single-cell RNA-seq datasets also support that nrg1 is predominantly expressed in endocardial, but not myocardial or epicardial cells during embryonic heart development (Figure 6-figure supplement 1). These findings suggest that id2b may regulate nrg1 expression in a cell-autonomous manner within the endocardium. As suggested, we have also added a UMAP image to Figure 7-figure supplement 1 to show tcf3b expression in endocardial cells, further supporting the cell identity in single-cell dataset.

      (9) In Fig. 6, Nrg1 knockout shows no gross morphological defects and normal trabeculation in larvae. Could the authors explain why they propose that endocardial id2b promotes nrg1 synthesis, thereby enhancing cardiomyocyte contractile function? Did Nrg1 knockdown with Mo lead to compromised calcium signaling and cardiac contractile function? Nrg2a has been reported to be expressed in endocardial cells in larvae, and its loss leads to heart function defects. Perhaps Nrg2a plays a more important role than Nrg1.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this important point. Although we did not directly test nrg1 knockout in our study, previous reports have shown that genetic deletion of nrg1 in zebrafish does not impair cardiac trabeculation during embryonic stages (Rasouli et al., Nat Commun 2017, PMID: 28485381; Brown et al., J Cell Mol Med 2018, PMID: 29265764). However, reduced trabecular area and signs of arrhythmia were observed in juvenile and adult fish (Brown et al., J Cell Mol Med 2018, PMID: 29265764), suggesting a potential role for nrg1 in maintaining cardiac structure and function later in development. Whether calcium signaling and cardiac contractility are affected at these stages remains to be determined. Given that morpholino-induced knockdown is limited to early embryonic stages, it is not suitable for assessing nrg1 function in juvenile or adult hearts.

      As noted by the reviewer, nrg2a is expressed in endocardial cells, and its deletion has been associated with cardiac defects (Rasouli et al., Nat Commun 2017, PMID: 28485381). To assess its potential involvement in our model, we performed qRT-PCR analysis and observed increased nrg2a expression in id2b mutant hearts (Author response image 1). This upregulation may reflect a compensatory response to the loss of id2b. Therefore, nrg2a is unlikely to play an essential role in mediating the depressed cardiac function in this context.

      Author response image 1.

      Expression levels of nrg2a. qRT-PCR analysis of nrg2a mRNA in id2b<sup>+/+</sup> and id2b<sup>-/-</sup> adult hearts. Data were normalized to the expression of actb1. N=5 biological replicates, with each sample containing two adult hearts.

      (10) In Fig. 7A of the IP experiment, it is recommended that the authors establish a negative control using control IgG corresponding to the primary antibody source. This control helps to differentiate non-specific background signal from specific antibody signal.

      As suggested, we have included an IgG control corresponding to the primary antibody species in the immunoprecipitation (IP) experiment to distinguish specific from non-specific binding. The updated data are presented in Figure 7A of the revised manuscript.

      (11) In Pg. 5, line 115: there is no reference included for previous literature on blebbistatin.

      We have added the corresponding reference (Line 126, Reference #5).

      In Pg. 5, lines 118-119; pg. 6 line 144: It would be beneficial to include a short sentence describing why choosing a tnnt2a morpholino knockdown to help provide mechanistic context to readers.

      We thank the reviewer for the constructive suggestion. In cardiomyocytes, tnnt2a encodes a sarcomeric protein essential for cardiac contraction, and its knockdown is a well-established method for abolishing heartbeat and blood flow in zebrafish embryos, thereby allowing investigation of flow-dependent gene regulation. In the revised manuscript, we have added a sentence and corresponding reference to clarify the rationale for using tnnt2a morpholino in our study (Lines 128-129, Reference #35).

      In Pg. 6, line 140: Results title of "Cardiac contraction promotes endocardial id2b expression through primary cilia but not BMP" is misleading and contradicts the results presented in this section and corresponding figure. For example, the bmp Mo knockdown experiments led to decreased id2b fluorescence and the last statement of this results section contradicts the title that BMP does not promote endocardial id2b in lines 179-180: "Collectively, these results suggest that BMP signaling and blood flow modulate id2b expression in a developmental-stage-dependent manner." It would be helpful to clarify whether BMP signaling is involved in id2b expression or not.

      We apologize for any confusion caused by the section title. Our results demonstrate that id2b expression is regulated by both BMP signaling and biomechanical forces in a developmental-stage-specific manner. Specifically, morpholino-mediated knockdown of bmp2b, bmp4, and bmp7a at the 1-cell stage significantly reduced id2b:eGFP fluorescence at 24 hpf (Figure 3-figure supplement 1A, B), suggesting that id2b is responsive to BMP signaling during early embryonic development. However, treatment with the BMP inhibitor Dorsomorphin during later stages (24-48 or 36-60 hpf) did not significantly alter id2b:eGFP fluorescence intensity in individual endocardial cells, although a modest reduction in total endocardial cell number was noted (Figure 3-figure supplement 1C, D). These results suggest that BMP signaling is required for id2b expression during early development but becomes dispensable at later stages, when biomechanical cues may play a more prominent role. To address this concern and better reflect the data, we have revised the Results section title to: "BMP signaling and cardiac contraction regulate id2b expression". This revised title more accurately reflects the dual regulation of id2b expression (Line 153).

      In line 205: Any speculation on why the hemodynamics was preserved between id2b mutant and WT siblings at 96 hpf?

      As suggested, we have included a sentence to address this observation. “Surprisingly, the pattern of hemodynamics was largely preserved in id2b<sup>-/-</sup> embryos compared to id2b<sup>+/+</sup> siblings at 96 hpf (Figure 4-figure supplement 1E, Video 1, 2), suggesting that the reduced number of endocardial cells in the AVC region was not sufficient to induce functional defects.” (Lines 223-225)

      In line 246: Fig. 6k and 6j are referenced, but should be figure 5k and 5j.

      We have corrected this in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      he manuscript was overall well explained, aside from a few minor points that would help facilitate reader comprehension:

      (1) The last paragraph of the introduction could be a brief summary of the study.

      We thank the reviewer for this constructive suggestion. As recommended, we have included a paragraph in the Introduction section summarizing our key findings to provide clearer context for the study (Lines 96-100).

      (2) Lines 127-128: 'revealed a substantial recapitulation of the... of endogenous id2b expression' may need to be rephrased.

      We thank the reviewer for the valuable suggestion. In the revised manuscript, we have changed the sentence to: “Comparison of id2b:eGFP fluorescence with in situ hybridization at 24, 48, and 72 hpf revealed that the reporter signal closely recapitulates the endogenous id2b expression pattern.” (Lines 137-139)

      (3) Line 182: '... in a developmental-stage-dependent manner' sounds a bit ambiguous, may need to slightly elaborate/ clarify what this means.

      We thank the reviewer for the helpful comment. To improve clarity, we have revised the statement to: “Collectively, these results suggest that id2b expression is regulated by both BMP and biomechanical signaling, with the relative contribution of each pathway varying across developmental stages.” (Lines 195-197)

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) The conclusion that BMP signaling prior to 24 hpf is necessary for id2b expression is not fully supported by the data. How do the authors envision pre-linear heart tube BMP signaling impacting endocardial id2b expression during later chamber stages? Id2b reporter fluorescence can be clearly visualized in the linear heart tube in panel B from Figure 1. Does id2b expression initiate prior to contraction? Can the model be refined by showing when id2b endocardial reporter fluorescence is first observed, and whether this early/pre-contractile expression is dependent on BMP signaling?

      We thank the reviewer for the important comment. As suggested, we performed morpholino-mediated knockdown of bmp2b, bmp4, and bmp7a at the 1-cell stage. Live imaging at 24 hpf showed significantly reduced id2b:eGFP fluorescence compared to controls (Figure 3-figure supplement 1A, B), suggesting that id2b is responsive to BMP signaling during early embryonic development. However, treatment with the BMP inhibitor Dorsomorphin during 24-48 or 36-60 hpf did not significantly impact id2b:eGFP fluorescence intensity in individual endocardial cells, although a reduction in endocardial cell number was observed (Figure 3-figure supplement 1C, D). These results suggest that BMP signaling is essential for id2b expression during early embryonic development, while it becomes dispensable at later stages, when biomechanical cues exert a more significant role.

      (2) Overexpressing tagged versions of TCF3b and Id2b in HEK293 cells is a very artificial way to make the major claim that these two proteins interact in endogenous endocardial cells. Can this be done in zebrafish embryonic or adult hearts?

      We thank the reviewer for this insightful comment. As suggested, we synthesized Flag-id2b and HA-tcf3b mRNA and co-injected them into 1-cell stage zebrafish embryos. We collected 100-300 embryos at 12, 24, and 48 hpf and performed western blot analysis using the same anti-HA and anti-Flag antibodies validated in HEK293 cell experiments. Despite multiple independent attempts, we were unable to detect clear bands of the tagged proteins in zebrafish embryos. We speculate that this could be due to mRNA instability, translational efficiency, or the low abundance of Id2b and Tcf3b proteins. We have acknowledged these technical limitations in the revised manuscript and clarified that the HEK293 cell data support a potential interaction between Id2b and Tcf3b, while confirming their endogenous interaction will require further investigations (Lines 295-296).

      (3) The data presented are consistent with the claim that the tcf3b binding sites are functional upstream of nrg1 to repress its transcription. To fully support this idea, those two sites should be disrupted with gRNAs if possible.

      We thank the reviewer for the valuable suggestion. In response, we attempted to disrupt the tcf3b binding sites using sgRNAs. However, we encountered technical difficulties in identifying sgRNAs that specifically and efficiently target these binding sites without affecting adjacent regions. Despite these challenges, our luciferase reporter assay, using tcf3b mRNA overexpression and morpholino knockdown, clearly demonstrated that tcf3b binds to and regulates nrg1 promoter region. Nevertheless, we acknowledge that future study using genome editing will be necessary to validate the direct binding of tcf3b to nrg1 promoter.

      Minor Points:

      (1) Must remove all of the "data not shown" statements and add the primary data to the Supplemental Figures.

      As suggested, we have removed all of the “data not shown” statements and added the original data to the revised manuscript (Figure 4E, middle panels, and Figure 4-figure supplement 1F)

      (2) Must present the order of the panels in the figure as they are presented in the text. One example is Figure 6 where 6E is discussed in the text before 6C and 6D.

      We thank the reviewer for bring up this important point. In the revised manuscript, we have carefully revised the manuscript to ensure that the order of figure panels matches the sequence in which they are discussed in the text. Specifically, we have reorganized the presentation of Figure 6 panels to align with the text flow, discussing panels 6C and 6D before panel 6E. The updated figure and corresponding text have been corrected accordingly in the revised manuscript.

      (3) Change the italicized gene names (e.g. tcf3b) to non-italicized names with the first letter capitalized (e.g. Tcf3b) when referencing the protein.

      As suggested, we have revised the manuscript to use non-italicized names with the first letter capitalized when referring to proteins.

      (4) All bar graphs should be replaced with dot bar graphs.

      We have replaced all bar graphs with dot bar graphs throughout the manuscript.

      (5) The new id2b mutant allele should be validated as a true null using quantitative RT-PCR to show that the message becomes destabilized through non-sense mediated decay or by immunostaining/western blot analysis if there is a zebrafish Id2b-specific antibody available.

      We thank the reviewer for this important suggestion. We have performed qRT-PCR analysis and detected a significant reduction in id2b mRNA levels in id2b<sup>-/-</sup> compared to id2b<sup>+/+</sup> controls. These new results are presented in Figure 4A of the revised manuscript.

      (6) Was tricaine used to anesthetize embryos for capturing heart rate and percent fractional area change? This analysis should be performed with no or very limited tricaine as it affects heart rate and systolic function. These parameters were captured at 120 hpf, but the authors should also look earlier at 72 hpf at a time when valves are not present by calcium transients are necessary to support heart function.

      We thank the reviewer for this important comment. When performing live imaging to assess cardiac contractile function, we used low-dose tricaine (0.16 mg/mL) to anesthetize the zebrafish embryos. We have included this important information in the Methods section (Line 503). As suggested, we have also included the heart function results at 72 hpf, which are now presented in Figure 5-figure supplement 2A-C of the revised manuscript.

      (7) The alpha-actinin staining in Figure 5-supplement 2D is very pixelated and unconvincing. This should be repeated and imaged at a higher resolution.

      As suggested, we have re-performed the α-actinin staining and acquired higher-resolution images. The updated results are now presented in Figure 5-figure supplement 2G of the revised manuscript.

      (8) The authors claim that reductions in id2b mutant heart contractility are due to perturbed calcium transients instead of sarcomere integrity. Why do the authors think that regulation of calcium dynamics was not observed in the DEG enriched GO-terms? Was significant downregulation of cacna1 identified in the bulk RNAseq?

      We thank the reviewer for raising this important point. In our bulk RNAseq dataset comparing id2b mutant and control hearts, GO term enrichment was primarily associated with pathways related to cardiac muscle contraction and heart contraction (Figure 5-figure supplement 1B). We speculate that the transcriptional changes related to calcium dynamics may be relatively subtle and thus were not captured as significantly enriched GO terms. In addition, our qRT-PCR analysis revealed a significant reduction in cacna1c expression in id2b mutant hearts compared to controls, suggesting that id2b deletion impairs calcium channel expression. However, this change was not detected by RNA-seq, likely due to limitations in sensitivity.

      (9) In line 277, the authors say, "To determine whether this interaction occurs in zebrafish, Flag-id2b and HA-tcf3b were co-expressed in HEK293 cells...". This should be re-phrased to, "To determine if zebrafish Id2b and Tcf3b interact in vitro, Flag-id2b and HA-tcf3b were co-expressed in HEK293 cells for co-immunoprecipitation analysis." The sentence in line 275 should be changed to, "....heterodimer with Tcf3b to limit its function as a potent transcriptional repressor."

      We thank the reviewer for these constructive comments and have revised the text accordingly (Lines 291-294).

      (10) Small text corrections or ideas:

      Line 63: emphasized

      We have corrected this in the revised manuscript.

      Line 71: studied signaling pathways

      We have corrected this in the revised manuscript.

      Line 106: the top 6 DEGS (I think that the authors mean top 6 GO-terms) and is Id2b in one of the enriched GO categories?

      id2b is one of the top DEGs. This point has been clarified in the revised manuscript (Lines 116-117).

      Line 125: a knockin id2b:eGFP reporter line

      We have corrected this in the revised manuscript (Line 136).

      Line 138: This paragraph could use a conclusion sentence.

      We have added a conclusion sentence in the revised manuscript (Lines 150-151).

      Line 190: id2b-/- zebrafish experienced early lethality

      We have revised the statement as suggested (Line 206).

      Line 193: The prominent enlargement of the atrium with a smaller ventricle has characterized as cardiomyopathy in zebrafish (Weeks et al. Cardiovasc Res, 2024, PMID: 38900908), which has also been associated with disruptions in calcium transients (Kamel et al J Cardiovasc Dev Dis, 2021, PMID: 33924051 and Kamel et al, Nat Commun 2021, PMID: 34887420). This information should be included in the text along with these references.

      We thank the reviewer for this helpful suggestion. We have incorporated these important references into the revised manuscript and included the relevant information to acknowledge the established link between atrial enlargement, cardiomyopathy, and disrupted calcium transients in zebrafish models (Reference #41, 42, and 45; Lines 210 and 260).

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      [...] Weaknesses

      Showing that A-2 and especially A-3 are outliers in the PCA analysis is useful, but it may be hiding other interesting signals in the data. The other strains are remarkably colinear on these plots, hinting that if the outliers were removed, one main component would emerge along which they are situated. It also seems possible that this additional analysis step would allow the second dimension to better differentiate them in a way that is interesting with respect to their mutator status or mutations in key metabolic or regulatory genes.

      We thank the reviewer for their positive comments and their constructive feedback on the manuscript. Following reviewer’s recommendation, we performed the PCA analysis on metabolism data after removing A-2 and A-3 data. We have detailed those results below. Consistent with a similar analysis performed on RNA-seq datasets in our previous publication, we find that removing these outliers has only a modest effect on separating mutators from non-mutators. We find that, while the new PC2 separates most mutators from the non-mutators, the separation is rather weak. Moreover, we do not see a similar distinction when looking at metabolic data in the Stationary phase. In the interest of improving the readability of the manuscript, we recommend not including these analysis in the final manuscript. We have presented the data for the reviewer’s benefit in Author response image 1, 2 and 3.

      Author response image 1.

      Author response image 2.

      Author response image 3.

      There is a missed opportunity to connect some key results to what is known about LTEE mutations that reduce the activity of pykF (pyruvate kinase I). This gene is mutated in all 12 LTEE populations, and often these mutations are frameshifts or transposon insertions that should completely knock out its activity. At first glance, inactivating an enzyme for a step in glycolysis does not make sense when the nutrient source in the growth medium is glucose, even though PykF is only one of two isozymes E. coli encodes for this reaction. There has been speculation that inactivating pykF increases the concentration of phosphoenolpyruvate (PEP) in cells and that this can lead to increased rates of glucose import because PEP is used by the phosphotransferase system of E. coli to import glucose (see https://doi.org/10.1002/bies.20629). The current study has confirmed the higher PEP levels, which is consistent with this model.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out this missed opportunity. We have expanded the discussion around the role of pykF mutations and the elevated concentrations of PEP observed in our data in section 3.4.

      In the introduction, the papers cited to show the importance of changes in metabolism for adaptation do not seem to fit the focus of this study very well. They stress production of toxins and secondary metabolites, which do not seem to be mechanisms that are at work in the LTEE. I can think of two areas of background that would be more relevant: (1) studies of how bacterial metabolism evolves in adaptive laboratory evolution (ALE) experiments to optimize metabolic fluxes toward biomass production (for example, https://doi.org/10.1038/nature01149), and (2) discussions of how cross-feeding, metabolic niche specialization, and metabolic interdependence evolve in microbial communities, including in other evolution experiments (for example, https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.0708504105 and https://doi.org/10.1128/mBio.00036-12).

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out missed citations in our introduction. We agree that these papers are relevant to the topic and have added their citations. Additionally, following the suggestion of another reviewer, we have reorganized the introduction so that the concept of the role of metabolism in evolution is presented first and the LTEE second.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      [...] Overall, this is a significant and well-executed research study. It offers new insights into the complex relationship between genetic changes and observable traits in evolving populations and utilizes metabolomics in the LTEE, a novel approach in combination with RNA-seq and mutation datasets.

      However, the paper's overall clarity is lacking. It is spread too thin and covers many topics without a clear focus. I strongly recommend a substantial rewrite of the manuscript, emphasizing structure and readability. The science is well executed, but the current writing does not do it justice.

      We thank the reviewer for their positive comments and their constructive feedback on the lack of clarity in writing. Following the reviewer’s suggestions, we have rewritten parts of the manuscript and reorganizd a few sections to improve readability. We hope the revised manuscript is significantly improved.

      Recommendations for the authors

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      1) Title and Abstract: Add the study organism to the abstract, and probably also the title. Currently, E. coli is not mentioned in either! I'm also not sure that the LTEE is a sufficiently well-known acronym to abbreviate this in the title.

      We have revised the title of the manuscript and now spell out LTEE and included E. coli in the title and the abstract.

      2) Abstract: I would switch the usage of metabolome to metabolism in a few more places. For example, "changes in its metabolism", "networked and convoluted nature of metabolism". The metabolome, the concentrations of all metabolites, is what is being measured, but I think of this as a phenotypic readout of how metabolism evolving.

      We have changed “metabolome” to “metabolism” in cases where we refer to what is evolving and use “metabolome” when we refer to what is being measured.

      3) Line 16: Technically, the 12 LTEE populations were not initially identical. The Ara- differed from the Ara+ ancestors by one intentional mutation and one unintentional mutation that was not discovered until whole genomes were sequenced. I would rephrase this to "where 12 replicate populations of E. coli are propagated" or something similar so that it can be correct without needing to describe this unnecessary detail.

      The line has been rephrased as suggested.

      4) General Note: The text refers to populations as Ara-3 but the figures use A-3. I'd suggest going with A-3 and similar throughout for consistency.

      Instances of Ara have been changed to A+/-, and a sentence specifying as such has been added to the intro to make mention of this.

      5) Lines 43-44, 97-98. My understanding is that both S and L ecotypes in A-2 can use both glucose and acetate, but that the differentiation is related to their specialization that leads to each one being better on one or the other nutrient. The descriptions make it sound like each grows at a different time. Also, by definition, cells are not growing during "stationary phase". The change from glucose utilization (and acetate secretion) to acetate utilization during one cycle of growth is better described as a diauxic shift.

      We have reworded this part to remove mention of “growth” during stationary phase and changed the wording such that it no longer sounds like they grow at different times.

      6) Line 54: The statement "provide the ability to test hypotheses from previous data" is vague. Either provide an example or delete.

      We have removed this sentence as suggested.

      7) Lines 71-72: The terms "interphase" and "intraphase" sound too much like parts of the cell cycle. I'd suggest describing the comparisons as between and within growth phases.

      The use of intra and interphase have been changed as suggested.

      8) Line 79: The citrate is presumably still a chelating agent, so change phrasing to "Citrate is present in the medium because it was originally added as a chelating agent" or something similar.

      This sentence has been rewritten as suggested.

      9) Line 83: Write out "mutation accumulations" so it is easier to understand as "the number of mutations that have accumulated".

      The phrase has been changed as suggested.

      10) Line 116: It's unclear whether the abundances of metabolites are "strategies of survival" in stationary phase. An equally valid explanation is that there is less selection on the metabolome to have a specific composition during stationary phase to have high fitness.

      We have added a line about the possibility for alternative hypotheses.

      11) Figure 1: There seems to be some information missing from the legend. What are R06 and R07 in Panels A and B? Is panel D exponential phase and panel E stationary phase?

      This information was inadvertently missing from the caption and has been added.

      12) Figures 2 and 3: Gene names should be in italics. To me, the gray for deleted genes is hard to tell apart from the blue/red. Perhaps you could put a little X in these boxes instead? I think that having a little triangle pointing from each gene or metabolite name its corresponding abundance panel would help the reader track which information goes with which features. In Fig. 3 the placement of L-aspartate is a bit awkward. I'd suggest moving it down so the dashed line does not have to go through the abundance panel.

      These figures have been edited to include small triangles that link a gene or metabolite and its heatmap. Additionally, an X has been added where genes have suffered inactivating mutations and the placement of some elements has been moved to improve overall clarity.

      13) Lines 183-185: It would be easier to see and judge the consistency of these argR related relationships if a correlation graph of some kind was shown, probably as a supplemental figure. This plot could, for example, have genes/metabolites across the x-axis and fold-change on the y-axis with lines connecting points corresponding to each of the twelve populations across these categories (like Fig S8 but with lines added). Alternatively, it could be a heat map with the populations across one axis and the genes/metabolites across the other axis (like Fig S3).

      We have added a supplementary figure consisting of heatmaps showing the consistency of these changes within an evolved line. It is now figure S9.

      14) Line 195: I think adding a sentence elaborating on what exactly mutation accumulation means in this context would be helpful to readers.

      We have attempted to clarify the meaning of this by specifically stating that it is due to the accumulation of deleterious mutations.

      15) Line 293: Is standard LTEE medium DM25? These omics experiments with the LTEE sometimes use similar media with different glucose concentrations, and this is a very important detail to precisely specify.

      We reference “standard” LTEE medium in the methods section and have additionally specified the amount of sugar to make it clear that we are not supplementing the media with additional sugar.

      16) Figure S8B. Is "cystine" used instead of "cysteine" on purpose here since the compound is oxidized in the metabolomics treatment?

      The use of cystine is intentional, we detect the oxidized compound.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Title:

      The abbreviation "LTEE" should not be in the title. Most readers will not recognize what it means. Instead, either the full name of the experiment, "Long-Term Evolution Experiment with E. coli," should be used, or the title should be rephrased to "Linking genotypic and phenotypic changes during a long-term evolution experiment using metabolomics."

      We have spelled out LTEE and included E. coli in the title.

      Abstract:

      Sentence 1: Consider softening the statement: "Do changes in an organism's environment, genome, or gene expression patterns often lead to changes in its metabolome?"

      We have rephrased this sentence to “Changes in an organism's environment, genome, or gene expression patterns can lead to changes in its metabolism”.

      Sentence 4: Use a hyphen for "Long-Term."

      This addition has been made.

      Sentence 4: Replace "transduce" with a more appropriate term: "...how the effects of mutations can be distributed through a cellular network to eventually affect metabolism and fitness."

      We have rewritten this sentence as “to understand how mutations can eventually affect metabolism and perhaps fitness”.

      Sentence 5: Clarify the use of "both" to refer to the ancestor of the LTEE and its descendant populations as two classes.

      We have reworded this sentence so it’s clear that the ancestors and evolved lines are two separate classes “We used mass-spectrometry to broadly survey the metabolomes of the ancestral strains and all 12 evolved lines…”.

      Sentence 6: Reverse the order for better emphasis: "Our work provides a better understanding of how mutations might affect fitness through the metabolome in the LTEE, and thus provides a major step in developing a complete genotype-phenotype map for this experimental system."

      We have rearranged this sentence per the reviewers suggestion.

      Introduction:

      Revise the introduction for clarity, readability, and logical narrative progression. Start with the second paragraph to set up the basic scientific principles being studied and then transition to describing the LTEE as a model system to examine those principles.

      The introduction has been rearranged and reworded in parts to increase clarity.

      Sentence 1: Revise for clarity: "The Long-Term Evolution Experiment (LTEE) has studied 12 initially identical populations of Escherichia coli as they have evolved in a carbon-limited, minimal glucose medium under a daily serial transfer regime."

      Sentence 2: Suggestion: "Begun in 1988, the LTEE populations have evolved for more than 75,000 generations, making it the longest-running experiment of its kind."

      Paragraph 2, sentence 2: Italicize "Drosophila."

      Paragraph 3, sentence 2: Make an important distinction: "Ara-3 is unique in that it evolved the ability to grow aerobically on citrate."

      Paragraph 3, sentence 4: Introduce the IS-mediated loss of the rbs operon in the LTEE as if it has not been described elsewhere.

      These suggestions have been incorporated into the manuscript.

      Results:

      Section 3.1: The use of samples from hours 2 and 24 to represent exponential and stationary phase may present some issues. For instance, capturing Ara-3 during its exponential growth on glucose, but not citrate, at hour 2. Furthermore, except for Ara-3, the LTEE populations reach stationary phase after approximately 4 hours, and there could be significant differences between early, mid, and late stationary phase. This possibility should be acknowledged, and future follow-up work should consider exploring these differences.

      We have added sentences in the first paragraph of the results section to include these details. We have also added a short paragraph to the conclusions suggesting additional studies of stationary phase, citing work on evolution of E. coli during long term stationary phase.

      Paragraph 3: While Turner et al. 2017 is an essential reference regarding resource use differences between Ara-3 and other LTEE populations, it would be more suitable to reference Blount et al. 2012 for the mutations that enabled access to citrate. Also, it is important to note that the difference lies in the ability to grow aerobically on citrate, rather than the ability to metabolize it.

      This citation has been added.

      Paragraph 4: As mentioned elsewhere, most LTEE populations exhibit balanced polymorphisms. Therefore, it is more appropriate to state that Ara-2 is the best-understood example of long-term diversity. It is likely that there are important metabolic differences between co-existing lineages in other LTEE populations.

      We now refer to Ara-2 as being the best-understood example of long term diversity..

      Paragraph 5: The first sentence of this paragraph should likely end with "levels."

      The word “levels” was added to the end of this sentence.

      Figure 3: It is preferable to refer to the "Superpathway of arginine and polyamine biosynthesis," citing EcoCyc as a reference, rather than a descriptor.

      This has been changed to a reference.

      Section 3.3, Paragraph 3: While higher intracellular amino acid abundances may facilitate higher translation rates and faster growth, the higher abundances themselves do not evaluate the hypothesis. To evaluate the hypothesis, it is necessary to demonstrate that higher abundances are associated with higher translation or growth rates. Therefore, the final sentence of this paragraph is not meaningful.

      We have reworded this sentence to say that it’s not possible to tell what the additional amino acids are being used for given only this data and that additional experiments are needed to confirm this hypothesis.

      Section 3.4: The first paragraph of this section misstates how evolution works. The low level of glucose in the LTEE does not drive innovation; instead, innovation occurs at random through the introduction of variation by mutation. Although the existence of the citrate resource acts as a reward that selects for variation that provides access to it, it is essential to remember that evolution is blind to such a reward. Moreover, regarding the evolution of the Cit+ trait, it is incorrect to assert that low glucose contributed to its evolution. As shown by Quandt et al. (2015), it seems probable that Cit+ evolution was potentiated by adaptation to specialization on acetate, which is produced by overflow metabolism resulting from rapid growth on glucose. This rapid growth only occurs when glucose is relatively abundant. The level of glucose seems low to us because it is low relative to traditional levels in bacteriological media, but not to the bacteria.

      We agree that this is a semantical, but important distinction. We have reworded this part as to not suggest that evolution has any forward thinking properties and is indeed blind to any rewards that might occur as the result of adaptation.

      In general, all instances of "utilize" and its cognates should be replaced with "use" and its cognates.

      Instances of “utilize” have been changed to use and its cognates.

      There is some uncertainty about the expectation of ramping up the TCA cycle in the LTEE. Overflow metabolism and acetate production appear to be prevalent in the LTEE, suggesting that many lineages only partially oxidize carbon derived from glucose, thereby bypassing the TCA cycle. While it is possible that this interpretation is incorrect, it would be helpful to see it addressed in the manuscript.

      We agree that this is a plausible hypothesis, we have added a paragraph at the end of this section that discusses the implications of overflow metabolism as an alternative hypothesis.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Several concerns are raised from the current study.

      1) Previous studies showed that iTregs generated in vitro from culturing naïve T cells with TGF-b are intrinsically unstable and prone to losing Foxp3 expression due to lack of DNA demethylation in the enhancer region of the Foxp3 locus (Polansky JK et al, Eur J Immunol., 2008, PMID: 18493985). It is known that removing TGF-b from the culture media leads to rapid loss of Foxp3 expression. In the current study, TGF-b was not added to the media during iTreg restimulation, therefore, the primary cause for iTreg instability should be the lack of the positive signal provided by TGF-b. NFAT signal is secondary at best in this culturing condition.

      In restimulation, void of TGFb is necessary to cause iTreg instability. Otherwise, the setup is similar to the iTreg-inducing environment (Author response image 1). On the other hand, the ultimate goal of this study is to provide a scenario that bears some resemblance of clinical treatment, where TGFb may not be available. The reviewer is correct in stating that TGFb is essential for iTreg stability, we are studying the role played by NFAT in iTreg instability in vitro, and possibly in potential clinical use of iTreg .

      Author response image 1.

      Restimulation with TGFb will persist iTreg inducing environment, resulting in less pronounced instability. Sorted Foxp3-GFP+ iTregs were rested for 1d, and then rested or restimulated in the presence of TGF-β for 2 d. Percentages of Foxp3+ cells were analyzed by intracellular staining of Foxp3 after 2 d.

      2) It is not clear whether the NFAT pathway is unique in accelerating the loss of Foxp3 expression upon iTreg restimulation. It is also possible that enhancing T cell activation in general could promote iTreg instability. The authors could explore blocking T cell activation by inhibiting other critical pathways, such as NF-kb and c-Jun/c-Fos, to see if a similar effect could be achieved compared to CsA treatment.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We performed this experiment according to see extent of the role that NFAT plays, or whether other major pathways are involved. As Author response image 2 shows, solely inhibiting NFAT effectively rescued the instability of iTreg. The inhibition of NFkB (BAY 11-7082), c-Jun (SP600125), or a c-Jun/c-Fos complex (T5224) had no discernable effect, or in one case, possibly further reduction in stability. These results may indicate that NFAT plays a crucial and special role in TCR activation, which leads to iTreg instability. Other pathways, as far as how this experiment is designed, do not appear to be significantly involved.

      Author response image 2.

      Comparing effects of NFAT, NF-kB and c-Jun/c-Fos inhibitors on iTreg instability. Sorted Foxp3-GFP+ iTregs were rested for 1d, then restimulated by anti-CD3 and CD28 in the presence of listed inhibitors. Percentages of Foxp3+ cells were analyzed by intracellular staining after 2d restimulation.

      3) The authors linked chromatin accessibility and increased expression of T helper cell genes to the loss of Foxp3 expression and iTreg instability. However, it is not clear how the former can lead to the latter. It is also not clear whether NFAT binds directly to the Foxp3 locus in the restimulated iTregs and inhibits Foxp3 expression.

      T helper gene activation is likely to cause instability in iTregs by secreting more inflammatory cytokines, as shown in Figure Q9, for example, IL-21 secretion. Further investigation is needed to understand how these genes contribute to Foxp3 gene instability exactly. With our limited insight, there may be two possibilities. 1. IL-21 directly affects Foxp3 through its impact on certain inflammation-related transcription factors (TFs). 2. There could be an indirect relationship where NFAT has a greater tendency to bind to those inflammatory TFs when iTreg instability appears, promoting the upregulation of these Th genes like in activated T cells, while being less likely to bind to SMAD and Foxp3, representing a competitive behavior. We at the moment cannot comprehend the intricacies that lead to the differential effects on T helper genes and Treg related genes.

      With that said, we have previously attempted to explore the direct effect of NFAT on Foxp3 gene locus. Foxp3 transcription in iTregs primarily relies on histone modifications such as H3K4me3 (Tone et al., 2008; Lu et al., 2011) rather than DNA demethylation (Ohkura et al., 2012; Hilbrands et al., 2016). Previous studies have reported that NFAT and SMAD3 can together promote the histone acetylation of Foxp3 genes (Tone et al., 2008). In our previous set of experiments, we simultaneously obtained information of NFAT binding sites and H3K4me3. In Foxp3 locus, we observed a decreasing trend in NFAT binding to the CNS3 region of Foxp3 in restimulated iTregs compared to resting iTregs (Author response image 3). Additionally, the H3K4me3 modification in the CNS3 region of Foxp3 decreased upon iTreg restimulation, but inhibiting NFAT nuclear translocation with CsA could maintain this modification at its original level (Author response image 3).

      Author response image 3.

      The NFAT binding and histone modification on Foxp3 gene locus. Genome track visualization of NFAT binding profiles and H3K4me3 profiles in Foxp3 CNS3 locus in two batches of dataset.

      Based on these preliminary explorations, it is concluded that NFAT can directly bind to the Foxp3 locus, and it appears that NFAT decreases upon restimulation, resulting in a decrease in H3K4me3, ultimately leading to the close association of NFAT and Foxp3 instability. However, due to limited sample replicates, these data need to be verified for more solid conclusions. We speculate that during the induction of iTregs, NFAT may recruit histone-modifying enzymes to open the Foxp3 CNS3 region, and this effect is synergistic with SMAD. When instability occurs upon restimulation, NFAT binding to Foxp3 weakens due to the absence of SMAD's assistance, subsequently reducing the recruitment of histone modifications enzyme and ultimately inhibiting Foxp3 transcription.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      (1) Some concerns about data processing and statistic analysis.

      The authors did not provide sufficient information on statistical data analysis; e.g. lack of detailed descriptions about

      -the precise numbers of technical/biological replicates of each experiment

      -the method of how the authors analyze data of multiple comparisons... Student t-test alone is generally insufficient to compare multiple groups; e.g. figure 1.

      These inappropriate data handlings are ruining the evidence level of the precious findings.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out this important aspect. In the figure legend, numbers of independently-performed experiment repeats are shown as N, biological replicates of each experiment as n. Student’s t test was used for comparing statistical significance between two groups. In this manuscript, all calculations of significant differences were based on comparisons between two groups. There were no multiple conditions compared simultaneously within a single group, and thus, no other calculation methods were used.

      (2) Untransparent data production; e.g. the method of Motif enrichment analysis was not provided. Thus, we should wait for the author's correction to fully evaluate the significance and reliability of the present study.

      Per this reviewer’s request, we have provided detailed descriptions of the data analysis for Fig 5, including both the method section and the Figure legend, as presented below:

      “The peaks annotations were performed with the “annotatePeak” function in the R package ChIPseeker (Yu et al, 2015).

      The plot of Cut&Tag signals over a set of genomic regions were calculated by using “computeMatrix” function in deepTools and plotted by using “plotHeatmap” and “plotProfile” functions in deepTools. The motif enrichment analysis was performed by using the "findMotifsGenome.pl" command in HOMER with default parameters.

      The motif occurrences in each peak were identified by using FIMO (MEME suite v5.0.4) with the following settings: a first-order Markov background model, a P value cutoff of 10-4, and PWMs from the mouse HOCOMOCO motif database (v11).”

      Additionally, we have also supplemented the method section with further details on the analysis of RNA-seq and ATAC-seq data.

      (3) Lack of evidence in human cells. I wonder whether human PBMC-derived iTreg cells are similarly regulated.

      This is a rather complicated issue, human T cells express FoxP3 upon TCR stimulation (PNAS, 103(17): 6659–6664), whose function is likely to protect T cells from activation induced cell death, and does not offer Treg like properties. In contrast in mice, FoxP3 can be used as an indicator of Treg. Currently, this is not a definitive marker for Treg in human, our FoxP3 based readouts do not apply. Nevertheless, we have now investigated whether inhibiting calcium signaling or NFAT could enhance the stability of human iTreg. As shown in Author response image 4, we found that the proportion of Foxp3-expressing cells did not show significant changes across the different conditions, while the MFI analysis revealed that CsA-treated iTreg exhibited higher Foxp3 expression levels compared to both restimulated iTreg and rest iTreg. However, CM4620 had no significant effect on Foxp3 stability, consistent with the observation of its limited efficacy in suppressing human iTreg long term activation. In summary, our results suggest that inhibiting NFAT signaling through CsA treatment can help maintain higher levels of Foxp3 expression in human iTreg.

      Author response image 4.

      Effect of inhibiting NFAT and calcium on human iTreg stability. Human naïve CD4 cells from PBMC were subjected to a two-week induction process to generate human iTreg. Subsequently, human iTreg were restimulated for 2 days with dynabeads followed by 2 days of rest in the prescence of CsA and CM-4620. Four days later, percentages of Foxp3+ cells and Foxp3 mean fluorescence intensity (MFI) were analyzed by intracellular staining.

      (4) NFAT regulation did not explain all of the differences between iTregs and nTregs, as the authors mentioned as a limitation. Also, it is still an open question whether NFAT can directly modulate the chromatin configuration on the effector-type gene loci, or whether NFAT exploits pre-existing open chromatin due to the incomplete conversion of Treg-type chromatin landscape in iTreg cells. The authors did not fully demonstrate that the distinct pattern of chromatin regional accessibility found in iTreg cells is the direct cause of an effector-type gene expression.

      To our surprise, the inhibition of NFkB (BAY 11-7082), c-Jun (SP600125), and the c-Jun/c-Fos complex (T5224) resulted in minimal alterations, as shown in Fig Q1. This seems to argue that NFAT may play a more special role in events leading iTreg instability.

      We hypothesize that NFAT takes advantage of pre-existing open chromatin state due to the incomplete conversion of chromatin landscape in iTreg cells. Because iTreg cells, after induction, already exhibit inherent chromatin instability, with highly-open inflammatory genes. Furthermore, when iTreg cells were restimulated, the subsequent change in chromatin accessibility was relatively limited and not rescued by NFAT inhibitor treatment (Author response image 5). Therefore, in the case of iTreg cells, we propose that NFAT exploits the easy access of those inflammatory genes, leading to rapid destabilization of iTreg cells in the short term.

      In contrast, tTreg cells possess a relatively stable chromatin structure in the beginning, it would be interesting to investigate whether NFAT or calcium signaling could disrupt chromatin accessibility during the activation or expansion of tTreg cells. It is possible that NFAT might cause the loss of the originally established demethylation map and open up inflammatory loci, thereby inducing a shift in gene transcriptional profiles, equally leading to instability.

      Author response image 5.

      Chromatin accessibility of Rest, Retimulated, CsA/ORAIinh treated restimulated iTreg. PCA visualization of chromatin accessibility profiles of different cell types. Color indicates cell type.

      To establish a direct relationship between gene locus accessibility and its overexpression, a controlled experimental approach can be employed. One such method involves precise manipulation of the accessibility of a specific genomic locus using CRISPR-mediated epigenetic modifications at targeted loci. Subsequently, the impact of this manipulation on the expression level of the target gene can be precisely examined. By conducting these experiments, it will be possible to determine whether the augmented gene accessibility directly causes the observed gene overexpression.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      1) It might be helpful to add TGF-b to the iTreg restimulation culture to remove the influence of the lack of TGF-b from the equation, and measure the influence of SOCE/NFAT on iTreg instability.

      Please refer to Author response image 1.

      2) Alternatively, authors can also culture iTreg cells with TGF-b for 2 weeks when they undergo epigenetic changes and become more stabilized (Polansky JK et al, Eur J Immunol., 2008, PMID: 18493985). At this point, the stabilized iTregs can be used to measure the influence of SOCE/NFAT on iTreg instability.

      In the study conducted by Polansky, it was observed in Figure 1 that prolonged exposure to TGF-β fails to induce stable Foxp3 expression and demethylation of the Treg-specific demethylated region (TSDR). Based on this finding, we could consider exploring alternative approaches to obtain a more stabilized iTreg population. One such approach could be isolating Foxp3+helios-Nrp1- iTreg cells directly from the peripheral in vivo, which are also known as pTregs. Generally, pTreg cells generated in vivo tend to be more stable compared to iTreg cells induced in vitro, and they already exhibit partial demethylation of the Treg signature, as shown in Fig 6C (Polansky JK et al, Eur J Immunol., 2008, PMID: 18493985). Investigating the role of NFAT and calcium signaling in pTreg cells would provide further insights into the additional roles of NFAT in Treg phenotypical transitions, particularly its role in chromatin accessibility.

      3) In Figure 3, NFAT binding to the inflammatory genes in iTreg cells was even stronger than in activated T conventional cells. This is possibly due to Tconv cells being stimulated only once while iTregs were restimulated. A fair comparison should be conducted with restimulated activated conventional T cells.

      Figure 3 demonstrates the accessibility of inflammatory gene loci, rather than NFAT binding. Comparing restimulated Tconvs with restimulated iTreg cells is indeed a valuable suggestion, as their activation state and polarization in iTreg directions could lead to distinct chromatin accessibility. Although one is activated long term regularly and the other is activated long term under iTreg polarization, it is highly likely that the chromatin state of both activated Tconvs and iTreg cells is highly open, especially in terms of the accessibility of inflammatory genes. This may provide us with a new perspective to understand iTreg cells, but will unlikely affect our central conclusion.

      4) In the in vivo experiment in Figure 6, a control condition without OVA immunization should be included as a baseline.

      We have performed this experiment in the absence of OVA, as depicted in Author response image 6. In the absence of OVA immunization, both WT-ORAI and DN-ORAI iTreg exhibited substantial stability, although DN-ORAI demonstrated a slightly less stable trend. Upon activation with 40ug and 100ug of OVA, DN-ORAI iTreg demonstrated enhanced stability than WT-ORAI iTreg, maintaining a higher proportion of Foxp3 expression.

      Author response image 6.

      Stability of DN-ORAI iTreg in vivo with or without OVA immunization. WT-ORAI/DN-ORAI-GFP+-transfected CD45.2+ Foxp3-RFP+ OT-II iTregs were transferred i.v. into CD45.1 mice. Recipients were left or immunized with OVA323-339 in Alum adjuvant. On day 5, mLN were harvested and analyzed for Foxp3 expression by intracellular staining.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Major

      Some concerns about the data processing and statistic analysis, as mentioned in the public review. In the figure legend, what does it mean e.g. n=3, N=3? Technical triplicate experiments? Three mice? Independently-performed three experiments? The authors should define it at least in the "Statistical analysis" in the method section otherwise the readers cannot determine the reason why they mainly use SEM for the data description.

      Moreover, in some cases, the number of experiments was not sure; e.g., Fig.1B, Fig. 5.

      How did the authors analyze data including multiple comparisons? Student t-test alone is generally insufficient to compare multiple groups; e.g. figure 1.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out this omission. Now, in the figure legend, numbers of independently-performed experiment repeats are shown as N, biological replicates of each experiment as n. For Fig. 1B, N=2, and for Fig 5, we have acquired NFAT Cut&Tag data for 2 times, N=2. Student’s t test was used for comparing statistical significance between two groups. In this manuscript, all calculations of significant differences were based on comparisons between two groups. There were no multiple conditions compared simultaneously within a single group, and thus, no other calculation methods were involved apart from the Student's t-test.

      In Figure 1A, the difference in suppressiveness seemed subtle. Data collection of multiple doses of Tconv:Treg ratio will enhance the reliability of such kind of analysis.

      We have now attempted the suppression assay with varying Treg:Tconv ratios and observed that the suppressive effect of iTreg was more obvious than that of tTreg when co-cultured at a 1:1 ratio with Tconv cells. However, as the cell number of tTreg and iTreg decreased, the inhibitory effects converged.

      Author response image 7.

      Compare multiple dose of Tconv:Treg ratio in suppression function CFSE-labelled OT-II T cells were stimulated with OVA-pulsed DC, then different number of Foxp3-GFP+ iTregs and tTregs were added to the culture to suppress the OT-II proliferation. After 4 days, CFSE dilution were analyzed. Left, Representative histograms of CFSE in divided Tconvs. Right, graph for the percentage of divided Tconvs.

      In Figure 3F, to which group did the shaded peaks belong? In this context, the authors should focus on "Activation Region" peaks (open chromatin signature in both TcAct & iTreg defined in Fig. 4D) but I did not find the peak in the focusing DNA regions in TcAct (e.g. the shaded regions in IL-4 loci). The clear attribution of the peaks to the heatmap will enhance the visibility and understanding of readers.

      We have selected some typical peaks that belong to Fig 3D. These genes encompass some T-cell activation-associated transcription factors, such as Irf4, Atf3, as well as multiple members of the Tnf family including Lta, Tnfsf4, Tnfsf8, and Tnfsf14. Additionally, genes related to inflammation such as Il12rb2, Il9, and Gzmc are included. These genes show elevated accessibility upon T-cell activation, partially open in activated nTreg cells, referred to as the "Activation Region." They collectively exhibit high accessibility in iTreg cells, which may contribute to their instability.

      Author response image 8.

      Chromatin accessibility of some “Activation Region”. Genomic track showing chromatin accessibility of Irf4, Atf3, Lta, Tnfsf8, Tnfsf4, Tnsfsf14, Il12rb2, Il9, Gzmc in activated Tconv and iTreg.

      In Figure 4A/S4A, the information on cell death will help the understanding of readers because the sustained SOCE is associated with cell survival as shown in Fig. S2. The authors can discuss the relationships between cell death and Foxp3 retention, which potentially leads to a further interesting question; e.g. the selective/resistance to activation-induced cell death as the identity of Treg cells.

      As shown in Author response image 9, activated iTreg cells indeed exhibit a certain degree of cell death compared to resting iTreg cells. The inhibition of NFAT by CsA enhances the survival rate of iTreg cells, but the inhibition of ORAI by CM-4620 leads to more severe cell death. The cell death induced by CsA and CM-4620 is not consistent, indicating that there may not be a direct proportional relationship between cell death and the expression of Foxp3 and Treg identity.

      Author response image 9.

      Relationship of cell death and Foxp3 stability in restimulated iTregs. Sorted Foxp3-GFP+ iTregs were rested for 1d, then restimulated by anti-CD3 and CD28 in the presence of CsA or CM-4620. After 2d restimulation, live cell percentage were analyzed by staining of Live/Dead fixable Aqua, and percentages of Foxp3+ cells were analyzed by intracellular staining of Foxp3. Upper, live cell percentage of iTregs. Lower, percentages of Foxp3 in iTregs.

      In Figure 5, the information for the data interpretation was insufficient.

      We have provided detailed descriptions of the data analysis for Fig 5, including both the method section and the Figure legend, as presented below:

      “The peaks annotations were performed with the “annotatePeak” function in the R package ChIPseeker (Yu et al, 2015). The plot of Cut&Tag signals over a set of genomic regions were calculated by using “computeMatrix” function in deepTools and plotted by using “plotHeatmap” and “plotProfile” functions in deepTools. The motif enrichment analysis was performed by using the "findMotifsGenome.pl" command in HOMER with default parameters. The motif occurrences in each peak were identified by using FIMO (MEME suite v5.0.4) with the following settings: a first-order Markov background model, a P value cutoff of 10-4, and PWMs from the mouse HOCOMOCO motif database (v11).”

      Additionally, we have also supplemented the method section with further details on the analysis of RNA-seq and ATAC-seq data.

      The correlation between the open chromatin status of the gene loci described in Fig.5E and the expression at mRNA level? e.g.; Do iTreg-Act cells produce a higher level of IL-21 than nTreg-act? The analysis in Fig.5F-G should be performed in parallel with nTreg cells to emphasize the distinct NFAT-chromatin regulation in iTreg cells.

      We have now compared the secretion levels of IL-21 in tTreg and iTreg upon activation and treated with CsA by ELISA. As shown in Author response image 10, tTreg did not secrete IL-21 regardless of activation status (undetectable), while iTreg did not secrete IL-21 at resting state but exhibited IL-21 secretion after 48 h of activation. Moreover, the secretion of IL-21 was inhibited by CsA and CM-4620 treatment. This observation aligns with our earlier findings where we observed nuclear binding of NFAT to gene loci of these cytokines, enhancing their expression and pushing iTreg unstable under inflammatory conditions. These findings further underscore the likelihood that the inhibition of calcium and NFAT signaling might contribute to the stabilization of iTreg by suppressing the secretion of inflammatory cytokines.

      Author response image 10.

      IL-21 secretion in tTreg and iTreg upon activation. iTregs and tTregs were sorted and restimulated with anti-CD3 and anti-CD28 antibodies, in the presence of CsA and CM-4620. Cell culture supernatant were harvested after 2 d restimulation and IL-21 secretion was analyzed by ELISA.

      Performing a parallel comparison of NFAT activity between tTreg and iTreg cells was initially part of our experimental plan. However, it proved challenging in practice, as we encountered difficulties in efficiently infecting tTreg cells with NFAT-flag. Consequently, we could not obtain a sufficient number of tTreg cells for conducting Cut&Tag experiments.

      Based on our observations, we speculate that there might be substantial differences in the accessibility of genes in tTreg cells, leading to considerable variations in the repertoire of genes available for NFAT to regulate. As a result, we expect significant differences in the nuclear localization and activity of NFAT between iTreg and tTreg cells.

      In Figure 6C, what does the FCM plot between Foxp3-CFSE look like?

      The authors can discuss the mechanism of ORAI-DN-mediated through such analysis; e.g. the possibility that selective proliferation defect by ORAI-DN in Foxp3- cells led to an increased percentage of Foxp3, not only just unstable transcription of Foxp3.

      This is an in vitro experiment to assess the suppressive effect of iTreg on Tconv proliferation. Therefore, CFSE is used to stain Tconv cells, but not iTreg cells, so we did not detect proliferation feature of iTreg.

      Minor

      Confusing terminology of "tTreg" at line 47, etc. "natural Treg" contains both thymic-derived Treg and periphery-derived Treg cells. (A Abbas et al. Nat Immunol. 2013)

      We have now changed the designation to tTreg at line 47. tTreg refers to thymus-derived regulatory T cells, while nTreg includes both tTreg and pTreg. However, it is important to note that the Treg cells used in our study were isolated from the spleen of 2-4-month-old Foxp3-GFP or Foxp3-RFP mice. The CD4+ T cells were first enriched using the CD4 Isolation kit, and the FACSAriaII was utilized to collect CD4+ Foxp3-GFP/RFP+ Treg cells. Subsequently, Helios and Nrp-1 staining revealed that the majority of these cells were nTreg, with only approximately 6% being pTreg. Overall, we consider the cells we used as tTreg.

      In all FCM analyses, the authors should clarify how to detect Foxp3 expression; Foxp3-GFP/Foxp3-RFP/Intracellular staining like Figure S5A (but not specified in the other FCM plots)

      All Foxp3 expressions in the article were assessed using intracellular staining, as described in the methods section, and we have added specific descriptions to each figure legend. The reason for employing intracellular staining is that we used Foxp3-IRES-GFP mice, where GFP and Foxp3 are not fused into a single protein, existing as separate proteins after expression. Therefore, during induction, the appearance of GFP protein might potentially represent the presence of Foxp3. However, in cases of Foxp3 instability, the degradation of GFP protein may not be entirely synchronized with that of Foxp3 protein, making GFP an unreliable indicator of Foxp3 expression levels. As a result, for the purification of pure iTreg cells, we used Foxp3-GFP/RFP fluorescence, while for observing instability, we employed intranuclear staining of Foxp3.

      In Figure 6B, the captions were lacking in the two graphs on the right side

      The two restimulation conditions, 0.125+0.25 and 0.25+0.5, have been added into Fig 6B right side.

      In Figure S2, the annotation of the x-y axis was missing.

      Added.

      Lack of reference at line 292.

      Reference 42-46 were added.

      In the method section, the authors should note the further product information of antibodies and reagents to enhance reproducibility and transparency. Making a list that clarifies the suppliers, Ab clone, product IDs, etc. is encouraged. The authors did not specify the supplier of recombinant proteins and which type of TGF-beta (TGF-beta 1, 2, or 3?).

      A detailed description of the mice, antibodies, Peptide recombinant protein, commercial kit, and software has been provided and incorporated into the methods section.

      In the method section, the authors should clarify which Foxp3-reporter strain. There are many strains of Foxp3-reporter mice in the world. In line 373, is the "FoxP3-IRES-GFP transgenic mice" true? Knock-in strain or BAC-transgene?

      This mouse is a gift from Hai Qi Lab in Tsinghua University. They acquired this mouse strain from Jackson Laboratory, and the strain name is B6.Cg-Foxp3tm2Tch/J, Strain #:006772. An IRES-EGFP-SV40 poly A sequence was inserted immediately downstream of the endogenous Foxp3 translational stop codon, but upstream of the endogenous polyA signal, generating a bicistronic locus encoding both Foxp3 and EGFP.

      The age of mice used in the experiments should be specified, and confusing words such as "young" should not be used in any method descriptions; e.g. line 405.

      The detailed mouse age has been added in the methods section. “To prepare Tconv, tTreg and iTreg for experiments, spleen was isolated from 2-4-month-old Foxp3-GFP mice for Tconv and tTreg sorting, and 6-week-old mice for iTreg induction.”

      The method of how the original ATAC-seq/Cut & Tag data were generated was not described in the method section.

      Added in method section.

      The reference section was incomplete, and the style was not unified. e.g.; ref 7, 24, 25, 26 ... I gave up checking all.

      The style of ref 7, 22, 24, 26, 28, 31, 33, 35 were modified.

      Changes in manuscript:

      Author Name: “Huiyun Lv” to “Huiyun Lyu”.

      Fig 1A was updated according to Reviwer 2’s suggestion.

      Fig S3E and associated description was added according to Reviwer 2’s suggestion.

      Fig S4C and associated description was added according to Reviwer 1’s suggestion.

      Fig 5H and associated description was added according to Reviwer 2’s suggestion.

      Fig 6D were updated according to Reviwer 1’s suggestion.

      Fig 2D was corrected, the labels for gapdh and actin in the iTreg panel were inadvertently switched. The mistake has been rectified, and the original gel image will be provided.

      Fig 2A and Fig 4A was updated.

      The style of Fig 6B and Fig S2A was modified.

      Method:

      Mice: FoxP3-IRES-GFP with more description.

      Flow Cytometry sorting and FACS: the detailed mouse age has been added. RNA-seq analysis, ATAC-sequencing, ATAC-seq analysis, Cut&Tag assay, Cut&Tag data analysis: more description was added.

      Statistical analysis: “Numbers of independently-performed experiment repeats are shown as N, biological replicates of each experiment as n.” were added.

      Reference: Ref 42-46 and 49-52 were added. The style of ref 7, 22, 24, 26, 28, 31, 33, 35 were corrected.

      A detailed description of the mice, antibodies, Peptide recombinant protein, commercial kit, and software has been provided.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This study provides potentially important, new information about the combination of information from the two eyes in humans. The data included frequency tagging of each eye's inputs and measures reflecting both cortical (EEG) and sub-cortical processes (pupillometry). Binocular combination is of potentially general interest because it provides -in essence- a case study of how the brain combines information from different sources and through different circuits. The strength of supporting evidence appears to be solid, showing that temporal modulations are combined differently than spatial modulations, with additional differences between subcortical and cortical pathways. However, the manuscript's clarity could be improved, including by adding more convincing motivations for the approaches used.

      We thank the editor and reviewers for their detailed comments and suggestions regarding our paper. We have implemented most of the suggested changes. In doing so we noticed a minor error in our analysis code that affected the functions shown in Figure 2e (previously Figure 1e), and have fixed this and rerun the modelling. Our main results and conclusions are unaffected by this change. We have also added a replication data set to the Appendix, as this bears on one of the points raised by a reviewer, and included a co-author who helped run this experiment.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      In this paper, the interocular/binocular combination of temporal luminance modulations is studied. Binocular combination is of broad interest because it provides a remarkable case study of how the brain combines information from different sources. In addition, the mechanisms of binocular combination are of interest to vision scientists because they provide insight into when/where/how information from two eyes is combined.

      This study focuses on how luminance flicker is combined across two eyes, extending previous work that focused mainly on spatial modulations. The results appear to show that temporal modulations are combined in different ways, with additional differences between subcortical and cortical pathways.

      1. Main concern: subcortical and cortical pathways are assessed in quite different ways. On the one hand, this is a strength of the study (as it relies on unique ways of interrogating each pathway). However, this is also a problem when the results from two approaches are combined - leading to a sort of attribution problem: Are the differences due to actual differences between the cortical and subcortical binocular combinations, or are they perhaps differences due to different methods. For example, the results suggest that the subcortical binocular combination is nonlinear, but it is not clear where this nonlinearity occurs. If this occurs in the final phase that controls pupillary responses, it has quite different implications.

      At the very least, this work should clearly discuss the limitations of using different methods to assess subcortical and cortical pathways.

      The modelling asserts that the nonlinearity is primarily interocular suppression, and that this is stronger in the subcortical pathway. Moreover the suppression impacts before binocular combination. So this is quite a specific location. We now say more about this in the Discussion, and also suggest that fMRI might avoid the limits on the conclusions we can draw from different methods.

      1. Adding to the previous point, the paper needs to be a better job of justifying not only the specific methods but also other details of the study (e.g., why certain parameters were chosen). To illustrate, a semi-positive example: Only page 7 explains why 2Hz modulation was used, while the methods for 2Hz modulation are described in detail on page 3. No justifications are provided for most of the other experimental choices. The paper should be expanded to better explain this area of research to non-experts. A notable strength of this paper is that it should be of interest to those not working in this particular field, but this goal is not achieved if the paper is written for a specialist audience. In particular, the introduction should be expanded to better explain this area of research, the methods should include justifications for important empirical decisions, and the discussion should make the work more accessible again (in addition to addressing the issues raised in point 1 above). The results also need more context. For example, why EEG data have overtones but pupillometry does not?

      We now explain the choice of frequency in the final paragraph of the introduction as follows:

      ‘We chose a primary flicker frequency of 2Hz as a compromise between the low-pass pupil response (see Barrionuevo et al., 2014; Spitschan et al., 2014), and the relatively higher-pass EEG response (Regan, 1966).’

      We also mention why the pupil response is low-pass:

      ‘The pupil response can be modulated by periodic changes in luminance, and is temporally low-pass (Barrionuevo et al., 2014; Spitschan et al. 2014), most likely due to the mechanical limitations of the iris sphincter and dilator muscles’.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Previous studies have extensively explored the rules by which patterned inputs from the two eyes are combined in the visual cortex. Here the authors explore these rules for un-patterned inputs (luminance flicker) at both the level of the cortex, using Steady-State Visual Evoked Potentials (SSVEPs) and at the sub-cortical level using pupillary responses. They find that the pattern of binocular combination differs between cortical and sub-cortical levels with the cortex showing less dichoptic masking and somewhat more binocular facilitation.

      Importantly, the present results with flicker differ markedly from those with gratings (Hou et al., 2020, J Neurosci, Baker and Wade 2017 cerebral cortex, Norcia et al, 2000 Nuroreport, Brown et al., 1999, IOVS). When SSVEP responses are measured under dichoptic conditions where each eye is driven with a unique temporal frequency, in the case of grating stimuli, the magnitude of the response in the fixed contrast eye decreases as a function of contrast in the variable contrast eye. Here the response increases by varying (small) magnitudes. The authors favor a view that cortex and perception pool binocular flicker inputs approximately linearly using cells that are largely monocular. The lack of a decrease below the monocular level when modulation strength increase is taken to indicate that previously observed normalization mechanism in pattern vision does not play a substantial role in the processing of flicker. The authors present a computational model of binocular combination that captures features of the data when fit separately to each data set. Because the model has no frequency dependence and is based on scalar quantities, it cannot make joint predictions for the multiple experimental conditions which is one of its limitations.

      A strength of the current work is the use of frequency-tagging of both pupil and EEG responses to measure responses for flicker stimuli at two anatomical levels of processing. Flicker responses are interesting but have been relatively neglected. The tagging approach allows one to access responses driven by each eye, even when the other eye is stimulated which is a great strength. The tagging approach can be applied at both levels of processing at the same time when stimulus frequencies are low, which is an advantage as they can be directly compared. The authors demonstrate the versatility of frequency tagging in a novel experimental design which may inspire other uses, both within the present context and others. A disadvantage of the tagging approach for studying sub-cortical dynamics via pupil responses is that it is restricted to low temporal frequencies given the temporal bandwidth of the pupil. The inclusion of a behavioral measure and a model is also a strength, but there are some limitations in the modeling (see below).

      The authors suggest in the discussion that luminance flicker may preferentially drive cortical mechanisms that are largely monocular and in the results that they are approximately linear in the dichoptic cross condition (no effect of the fixed contrast stimulus in the other eye). By contrast, prior research using dichoptic dual frequency flickering stimuli has found robust intermodulation (IM) components in the VEP response spectrum (Baitch and Levi, 1988, Vision Res; Stevens et al., 1994 J Ped Ophthal Strab; France and Ver Hoeve, 1994, J Ped Ophthal Strab; Suter et al., 1996 Vis Neurosci). The presence of IM is a direct signature of binocular interaction and suggests that at least under some measurement conditions, binocular luminance combination is "essentially" non-linear, where essential implies a point-like non-linearity such as squaring of excitatory inputs. The two views are in striking contrast. It would thus be useful for the authors could show spectra for the dichoptic, two-frequency conditions to see if non-linear binocular IM components are present.

      This is an excellent point, and one that we had not previously appreciated the importance of. We have generated a figure (Fig 8) showing the IM response in the cross frequency conditions. There is a clear response at 0.4Hz in the pupillometry data (2-1.6Hz), and at 3.6Hz in the EEG data (2+1.6Hz). We therefore agree that this shows the system is essentially nonlinear, despite the binocular combination appearing approximately linear. We now say in the Discussion:

      ‘In the steady-state literature, one hallmark of a nonlinear system is the presence of intermodulation responses at the sums and differences of fundamental flicker frequencies (Baitch & Levi, 1988; Tsai et al., 2012). In Figure 8 we plot the amplitude spectra of conditions from Experiment 1 in which the two eyes were stimulated at different frequencies (2Hz and 1.6Hz) but at the same contrast (48%; these correspond to the binocular cross and dichoptic cross conditions in Figures 2d,e and 3d,e). Consistent with the temporal properties of pupil responses and EEG, Figure 8a reveals a strong intermodulation difference response at 0.4Hz (red dashed line), and Figure 8b reveals an intermodulation sum response at 3.6Hz (red dashed line). The presence of these intermodulation terms is predicted by nonlinear gain control models of the type considered here (Baker and Wade, 2017; Tsai et al., 2012), and indicates that the processing of monocular flicker signals is not fully linear prior to the point at which they are combined across the eyes.’

      If the IM components are indeed absent, then there is a question of the generality of the conclusions, given that several previous studies have found them with dichoptic flicker. The previous studies differ from the authors' in terms of larger stimuli and in their use of higher temporal frequencies (e.g. 18/20 Hz, 17/21 Hz, 6/8 Hz). Either retinal area stimulated (periphery vs central field) or stimulus frequency (high vs low) could affect the results and thus the conclusions about the nature of dichoptic flicker processing in cortex. It would be interesting to sort this out as it may point the research in new directions.

      This is a great suggestion about retinal area. As chance would have it, we had already collected a replication data set where we stimulated the periphery, and we now include a summary of this data set as an Appendix. In general the results are similar, though we obtain a measurable (though still small) second harmonic response in the pupillometry data with this configuration, which is a further indication of nonlinear processing.

      Whether these components are present or absent is of interest in terms of the authors' computational model of binocular combination. It appears that the present model is based on scalar magnitudes, rather than vectors as in Baker and Wade (2017), so it would be silent on this point. The final summation of the separate eye inputs is linear in the model. In the first stage of the model, each eye's input is divided by a weighted input from the other eye. If we take this input as inhibitory, then IM would not emerge from this stage either.

      We have performed the modelling using scalar values here for simplicity and transparency, and to make the fitting process computationally feasible (it took several days even done this way). This type of model is quite capable of processing sine waves as inputs, and producing a complex output waveform which is Fourier transformed and then analysed in the same way as the experimental data (see e.g. Tsai, Wade & Norcia, 2012, J Neurosci; Baker & Wade, 2017, Cereb Cortex). However our primary aim here was to fit the model, and make inferences about the parameter values, rather than to use a specific set of parameter values to make predictions. We now say more about this family of models and how they can be applied in the methods section:

      “Models from this family can handle both scalar contrast values and continuous waveforms (Tsai et al., 2012) or images (Meese and Summers, 2007) as inputs. For time-varying inputs, the calculations are performed at each time point, and the output waveform can then be analysed using Fourier analysis in the same way as for empirical data.This means that the model can make predictions for the entire Fourier spectrum, including harmonic and intermodulation responses that arise as a consequence of nonlinearities in the model (Baker and Wade, 2017). However for computational tractability, we performed fitting here using scalar contrast values.”

      As a side point, there are quite a lot of ways to produce intermodulation terms, meaning they are not as diagnostic as one might suppose. We demonstrate this in Author response image 1, which shows the Fourier spectra produced by a toy model that multiplies its two inputs together (for an interactive python notebook that allows various nonlinearities to be explored, see here). Intermodulation terms also arise when two inputs of different frequencies are summed, followed by exponentiation. So it would be possible to have an entirely linear binocular summation process, followed by squaring, and have this generate IM terms (not that we think this is necessarily what is happening in our experiments).

      Author response image 1

      Related to the model: One of the more striking results is the substantial difference between the dichoptic and dichoptic-cross conditions. They differ in that the latter has two different frequencies in the two eyes while the former has the same frequency in each eye. As it stands, if fit jointly on the two conditions, the model would make the same prediction for the dichoptic and dichoptic-cross conditions. It would also make the same prediction whether the two eyes were in-phase temporally or in anti-phase temporally. There is no frequency/phase-dependence in the model to explain differences in these cases or to potentially explain different patterns at the different VEP response harmonics. The model also fits independently to each data set which weakens its generality. An interpretation outside of the model framework would thus be helpful for the specific case of differences between the dichoptic and dichoptic-cross conditions.

      As mentioned above, the limitations the reviewer highlights are features of the specific implementation, rather than the model architecture in general. Furthermore, although this particular implementation of the model does not have separate channels for different phases, these can be added (see e.g. Georgeson et al., 2016, Vis Res, for an example in the spatial domain). In future work we intend to explore the phase relationship of flicker, but do not have space to do this here.

      Prior work has defined several regimes of binocular summation in the VEP (Apkarian et al.,1981 EEG Journal). It would be useful for the authors to relate the use of their terms "facilitation" and "suppression" to these regimes and to justify/clarify differences in usage, when present. Experiment 1, Fig. 3 shows cases where the binocular response is more than twice the monocular response. Here the interpretation is clear: the responses are super-additive and would be classed as involving facilitation in the Apkarian et al framework. In the Apkarian et al framework, a ratio of 2 indicates independence/linearity. Ratios between 1 and 2 indicate sub-additivity and are diagnostic of the presence of binocular interaction but are noted by them to be difficult to interpret mechanistically. This should be discussed. A ratio of <1 indicates frank suppression which is not observed here with flicker.

      Operationally, we use facilitation to mean an increase in response relative to a monocular baseline, and suppression to mean a decrease in response. We now state this explicitly in the Introduction. Facilitation greater than a factor of 2 indicates some form of super-additive summation. In the context of the model, we also use the term suppression to indicate divisive suppression between channels, however this feature does not always result in empirical suppression (it depends on the condition, and the inhibitory weight). We think that interpretation of results such as these is greatly aided by the use of a computational modelling framework, which is why we take this approach here. The broad applicability of the model we use in the domain of spatial contrast lends it credibility for our stimuli here.

      Can the model explore the full range of binocular/monocular ratios in the Apkarian et al framework? I believe much of the data lies in the "partial summation" regime of Apkarian et al and that the model is mainly exploring this regime and is a way of quantifying varying degrees of partial summation.

      Yes, in principle the model can produce the full range of behaviours. When the weight of suppression is 1, binocular and monocular responses are equal. When the weight is zero, the model produces linear summation. When the weight is greater than 1, suppression occurs. It is also possible to produce super-additive summation effects, most straightforwardly by changing the model exponents. However this was not required for our data here, and so we kept these parameters fixed. We agree that the model is a good way to unify the results across disparate experimental paradigms, and that is our main intention with Figure 7i.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      This manuscript describes interesting experiments on how information from the two eyes is combined in cortical areas, sub-cortical areas, and perception. The experimental techniques are strong and the results are potentially quite interesting. But the manuscript is poorly written and tries to do too much in too little space. I had a lot of difficulty understanding the various experimental conditions, the complicated results, and the interpretations of those results. I think this is an interesting and useful project so I hope the authors will put in the time to revise the manuscript so that regular readers like myself can better understand what it all means.

      Now for my concerns and suggestions:

      The experimental conditions are novel and complicated, so readers will not readily grasp what the various conditions are and why they were chosen. For example, in one condition different flicker frequencies were presented to the two eyes (2Hz to one and 1.6Hz to the other) with the flicker amplitude fixed in the eye presented to the lower frequency and the flicker amplitude varied in the eye presented to the higher frequency. This is just one of several conditions that the reader has to understand in order to follow the experimental design. I have a few suggestions to make it easier to follow. First, create a figure showing graphically the various conditions. Second, come up with better names for the various conditions and use those names in clear labels in the data figures and in the appropriate captions. Third, combine the specific methods and results sections for each experiment so that one will have just gone through the relevant methods before moving forward into the results. The authors can keep a general methods section separate, but only for the methods that are general to the whole set of experiments.

      We have created a new figure (now Fig 1) that illustrates the conditions from Experiment 1, and is referenced throughout the paper. We have kept the names constant, as they are rooted in a substantial existing literature, and it will be confusing to readers familiar with that work if we diverge from these conventions. We did consider separating out the methods section, but feel it helps the flow of the results section to keep it as a single section.

      I wondered why the authors chose the temporal frequencies they did. Barrionuevo et al (2014) showed that the human pupil response is greatest at 1Hz and is nearly a log unit lower at 2Hz (i.e., the change in diameter is nearly a log unit lower; the change in area is nearly 2 log units lower). So why did the authors choose 2Hz for their primary frequency? And why did the authors choose 1.6Hz which is quite close to 2Hz for their off frequency? The rationale behind these important decisions should be made explicit.

      We now explain this in the Introduction as follows:

      ‘We chose a primary flicker frequency of 2Hz as a compromise between the low-pass pupil response (see Barrionuevo et al., 2014; Spitschan et al., 2014), and the relatively higher-pass EEG response (Regan, 1966).’

      It is a compromise frequency that is not optimal for either modality, but generates a measurable signal for both. The choice of 1.6 Hz was for similar reasons - for a 10-second trial it is four frequency bins away from the primary frequency, so can be unambiguously isolated in the spectrum.

      By the way, I wondered if we know what happens when you present the same flicker frequencies to the two eyes but in counter-phase. The average luminance seen binocularly would always be the same, so if the pupil system is linear, there should be no pupil response to this stimulus. An experiment like this has been done by Flitcroft et al (1992) on accommodation where the two eyes are presented stimuli moving oppositely in optical distance and indeed there was no accommodative response, which strongly suggests linearity.

      We have not tried this yet, but it’s on our to-do list for future work. The accommodation work is very interesting, and we now cite it in the manuscript as follows:

      ‘Work on the accommodative response indicates that binocular combination there is approximately linear (Flitcroft et al. 1992), and can even cancel when signals are in antiphase (we did not try this configuration here).’

      Figures 1 and 2 are important figures because they show the pupil and EEG results, respectively. But it's really hard to get your head around what's being shown in the lower row of each figure. The labeling for the conditions is one problem. You have to remember how "binocular" in panel c differs from "binocular cross" in panel d. And how "monocular" in panel d is different than "monocular 1.6Hz" in panel e. Additionally, the colors of the data symbols are not very distinct so it makes it hard to determine which one is which condition. These results are interesting. But they are difficult to digest.

      We hope that the new Figure 1 outlining the conditions has helped with interpretation here.

      The authors make a strong claim that they have found substantial differences in binocular interaction between cortical and sub-cortical circuits. But when I look at Figures 1 and 2, which are meant to convey this conclusion, I'm struck by how similar the results are. If the authors want to continue to make their claim, they need to spend more time making the case.

      Indeed, it is hard to make direct comparisons across figures - this is why Figure 4 plots the ratio of binocular to monocular conditions, and shows a clear divergence between the EEG and pupillometry results at high contrasts.

      Figure 5 is thankfully easy to understand and shows a very clear result. These perceptual results deviate dramatically from the essentially winner-take-all results for spatial sinewaves shown by Legge & Rubin (1981); whom they should cite by the way. Thus, very interestingly the binocular combination of temporal variation is quite different than the binocular combination of spatial variation. Can the pupil and EEG results also be plotted in the fashion of Figure 5? You'd pick a criterion pupil (or EEG) change and use it to make such plots.

      We now cite Legge & Rubin. We see what you mean about plotting the EEG and pupillometry results in the same coordinates as the matching data, but we don’t think this is especially informative as we would end up only with data points along the axes and diagonal of the plot, without the points at other angles. This is a consequence of how the experiments were conducted.

      My main suggestion is that the authors need to devote more space to explaining what they've done, what they've found, and how they interpret the data. I suggest therefore that they drop the computational model altogether so that they can concentrate on the experiments. The model could be presented in a future paper.

      We feel that the model is central to the understanding and interpretation of our results, and have retained it in the revised version of the paper.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I found the terms for the stimulus conditions confusing. I think a simple schematic diagram of the conditions would help the reader.

      Now added (the new Fig 1).

      In reporting the binocular to monocular ratio, please clarify whether the monocular data was from one eye alone (and how that eye was chosen) or from both eyes and then averaged, or something else. It would be useful to plot the results from the dichoptic condition in this form, as well.

      These were averaged across both eyes. We now say in the Methods section:

      ‘We confirmed in additional analyses that the monocular consensual pupil response was complete, justifying our pooling of data across the eyes.’

      Also, clarify whether the term facilitation is used as above throughout (facilitation being > 2 times monocular response under binocular condition) or if a different criterion is being used. If we take facilitation to mean a ratio > 2, then facilitation depends on temporal frequency in Figure 4.

      We now explain our use of these terms in the final paragraph of the Introduction:

      ‘Relative to the response to a monocular signal, adding a signal in the other eye can either increase the response (facilitation) or reduce it (suppression).’

      The magnitude of explicit facilitation attained is interesting, but not without precedent. Ratios of binocular to mean monocular > 2, have been reported previously and values of summation depend strongly on the stimulus used (see for example Apkarian et al., EEG Journal, 1981, Nicol et al., Doc Ophthal, 2011).

      We now mention this in the Discussion as follows:

      ‘(however we note that facilitation as substantial as ours has been reported in previous EEG work by Apkarian et al. (1981))’

      In Experiment 3, the authors say that the psychophysical matching results are consistent with the approximately linear summation effects observed in the EEG data of Experiment 1. In describing Fig. 3, the claim is that the EEG is non-linear, e.g. super-additive - at least at high contrasts. Please reconcile these statements.

      We think that the ‘superadditive’ effects are close enough to linear that we don’t want to make too much of a big deal about them - this could be measurement error, for example. So we use terms such as near-linear, or approximately linear, when referring to them throughout.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Let me make some more specific comments using a page/paragraph/line format to indicate where in the text they're relevant.

      1/2 (middle)/3 from end. "In addition" seems out of place here.

      Removed.

      1/3/4. By "intensities" do you mean "contrasts"?

      Fixed.

      1/3/last. "... eyes'...".

      Fixed.

      2/5/3. By "one binocular disc", you mean into "one perceptually fused disc".

      Rewritten as: ‘to help with their perceptual fusion, giving the appearance of a single binocular disc’

      3/1/1. "calibrated" seems like the wrong word here. I think you're just changing the vergence angle to enable fusion, right?

      Now rewritten as: ‘Before each experiment, participants adjusted the angle of the stereoscope mirrors to achieve binocular fusion’

      3/1/1. "adjusting the angles...". And didn't changing the mirror angles affect the shapes of the discs in the retinal images?

      Perhaps very slightly, but this is well within the tolerance of the visual system to compensate for in the fused image, especially for such high contrast edges.

      3/3/5. "fixed contrast" is confusing here because it's still a flickering stimulus if I follow the text here. Reword.

      Now ‘fixed temporal contrast’

      3/4/1. It would be clearer to say "pupil tracker" rather than "eye tracker" because you're not really doing eye tracking.

      True, but the device is a commercial eye tracker, so this is the appropriate term regardless of what we are using it for.

      3/5/6. I'm getting lost here. "varying contrast levels" applies to the dichoptic stimulus, right?

      Yes, now reworded as ‘In the other interval, a target disc was displayed, flickering at different contrast levels on each trial, but with a fixed interocular contrast ratio across the block.’

      3/5/7. Understanding the "ratio of flicker amplitudes" is key to understanding what's going on here. More explanation would be helpful.

      Addressed in the above point.

      4/3/near end. Provide some explanation about why the Fourier approach is more robust to noise.

      Added ‘(which can make the phase and amplitude of a fitted sine wave unstable)’

      Figure 1. In panel a, explain what the numbers on the ordinate mean. What's zero, for example? Which direction is dilation? Same question for panel b. It's interesting in panel c that the response in one eye to 2Hz increases when the other eye sees 1.6Hz. Would be good to point that out in the text.

      Good idea about panel (a) - we have changed the y-axis to ‘Relative amplitude’ for clarity, and now note in the figure caption that ‘Negative values indicate constriction relative to baseline, and positive values indicate dilation.’ Panel (b) is absolute amplitude, so is unsigned. Panel (c) only contains 2Hz conditions, but there is some dichoptic suppression across the two frequencies in panels (d,e) - we now cover this in the text and include statistics.

      6/2/1. Make clear in the text that Figure 1c shows contrast response functions for the pupil.

      Now noted in the caption.

      Figure 3. I'm lost here. I feel like I should be able to construct this figure from Figures 1 and 2, but don't know how. More explanation is needed at least in the caption.

      Done. The caption now reads:

      ‘Ratio of binocular to monocular response for three data types. These were calculated by dividing the binocular response by the monocular response at each contrast level, using the data underlying Figures 2c, 3c and 3f. Each value is the average ratio across N=30 participants, and error bars indicate bootstrapped standard errors.’

      9/1/1-2. I didn't find the evidence supporting this statement compelling.

      We now point the reader to Figure 4 as a reminder of the evidence for this difference.

      9/1/6-9. You said this. But this kind of problem can be fixed by moving the methods sections as I suggested above.

      As mentioned, we feel that the results section flows better with the current structure.

      Figure 4. Make clear that this is EEG data.

      Now added to caption.

      Figure 5 caption. Infinite exponent in what equation?

      Now clarified as: ‘models involving linear combination (dotted) or a winner-take-all rule (dashed)’

      Figure 6. I hope this gets dropped. No one will understand how the model predictions were derived. And those who look at the data and model predictions will surely note (as the authors do) that they are rather different from one another.

      As noted above, we feel that the model is central to the paper and have retained this figure. We have also worked out how to correct the noise parameter in the model for the number of participants included in the coherent averaging, which fixes the discrepancy at low contrasts. The correspondence between the data and model in is now very good, and we have plotted the data points and curves in the same panels, which makes the figure less busy.

      12/1. Make clear in this paragraph that "visual cortex" is referring to EEG and perception results and that "subcortical" is referring to pupil. Explain clearly what "linear" would be and what the evidence for "non-linear" is.

      Good suggestion, we have added qualifiers linking to both methods. Also tidied up the language to make it clearer that we are talking about binocular combination specifically in terms of linearity, and spelled out the evidence for each point.

      12/2/6-9. Explain the Quaia et al results enough for the reader to know what reflexive eye movements were studied and how.

      We now specify that these eye movements are also known as the ‘ocular following response’ and were measured using scleral search coils.

      12/2/9-10. Same for Spitchan and Cajochen: more explanation.

      Added:

      “(melatonin is a hormone released by the pineal gland that regulates sleep; its production is suppressed by light exposure and can be measured from saliva assays)”

      12/3/2-3. Intriguing statements about optimally combining noisy signals, but explain this more. It won't be obvious to most readers.

      We have added some more explanation to this section.

      13/1. This is an interesting paragraph where the authors have a chance to discuss what would be most advantageous to the organism. They make the standard argument for perception, but basically punt on having an argument for the pupil.

      Indeed, we agree that this point is necessarily speculative, however we think it is interesting for the reader to consider.

      13/2/1. "Pupil size affects the ..." is more accurate.

      Fixed.

      13/2/2 from end. Which "two pathways"? Be clear.

      Changed to ‘the pupil and perceptual pathways’

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      (1) The mechanism by which STAMBPL1 mediates GRHL3 transcription through its interaction with FOXO1 is not sufficiently discussed, especially in relation to how STAMBPL1 regulates FOXO1. Some reported effects are modest.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comments. In response, we have added a discussion on the potential mechanisms by which STAMPBL1 regulates FOXO1 transcriptional activity in Discussion, highlighted in red on page 18, lines 342 to 352. The specific reply content is as follows: “The transcriptional activity of FOXO1 is primarily regulated by its nucleocytoplasmic shuttling process (Van Der Heide, Hoekman et al. 2004). The PI3K/AKT pathway promotes the phosphorylation of FOXO1, resulting in the formation of a complex with members of the 14-3-3 family (including 14-3-3σ, 14-3-3ε, and 14-3-3ζ), which facilitates its export from the nucleus and inhibits its transcriptional activity (Huang and Tindall 2007, Tzivion, Dobson et al. 2011). It’s reported that TDAG51 prevents the binding of 14-3-3ζ to FOXO1 in the nucleus by interacting with FOXO1, thereby enhancing its transcriptional activity through increased accumulation within the nucleus (Park, Jeon et al. 2023). Our results indicate that the overexpression of STAMBPL1 and STAMBPL1-E292A did not affect the protein levels of FOXO1 (Fig.7E and Fig.S5E), but STAMBPL1 co-localizes with FOXO1 in the nucleus (Fig.7M) and interacts with it (Fig.7N and Fig.S5I-J). This suggests that STAMBPL1 enhances the transcriptional activity of FOXO1 on GRHL3 by interacting with nuclear FOXO1.” The result was added to Supplementary Figure 5 as Fig.S5E.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      (1) A potential limitation of the study is the reliance on specific cellular and animal models, which may constrain the extrapolation of these findings to the broader spectrum of human TNBC biology. Furthermore, while the study provides evidence for a novel regulatory axis involving STAMBPL1, FOXO1, and GRHL3, the multifaceted nature of angiogenesis may implicate additional regulatory factors not exhaustively addressed in this research.

      We appreciate the valuable suggestions provided by the reviewer. In Discussion, we have added an in-depth discussion of the limitations of the study, as well as an analysis of the regulatory factors related to tumor angiogenesis, which highlighted in red on pages 20 to 21, lines 396 to 412. The relevant content added is as follows: “In this study, we utilized two triple-negative breast cancer cell lines, HCC1806 and HCC1937, along with human primary umbilical vein endothelial cells (HUVECs) and a nude mouse breast orthotopic transplantation tumor model to investigate the regulatory mechanism by which STAMBPL1 activates the GRHL3/HIF1α/VEGFA signaling pathway through its interaction with FOXO1, thereby promoting angiogenesis in TNBC. The results of this study have certain limitations regarding their applicability to human TNBC biology. Furthermore, in addition to the HIF1α/VEGFA signaling pathway emphasized in this study, tumor cells can continuously release or upregulate various pro-angiogenic factors, such as Angiopoietin and FGF, which activate endothelial cells, pericytes (PCs), cancer-associated fibroblasts (CAFs), endothelial progenitor cells (EPCs), and immune cells (ICs). This leads to capillary dilation, basement membrane disruption, extracellular matrix remodeling, pericyte detachment, and endothelial cell differentiation, thereby sustaining a highly active state of angiogenesis (Liu, Chen et al. 2023). It is important to collect clinical TNBC tissue samples in the future to analyze the expression of the STAMBPL1/FOXO1/GRHL3/HIF1α/VEGFA signaling axis. Furthermore, patient-derived organoid and xenograft models are useful to elucidate the regulatory relationship of this axis in TNBC angiogenesis”

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      The main weaknesses of this work are that the relevance of this molecular axis to the pathogenesis of TNBC is not clear, and it is not clearly established whether this is a regulatory pathway that occurs in hypoxic conditions or independently of oxygen levels.

      (1) With respect to the first point, both FOXO1 and GRHL3 have been previously described as tumor suppressors, with reports of FOXO1 inhibiting tumor angiogenesis. Therefore, this works describes an apparently contradictory function of these proteins in TNBC. While it is not surprising that the same genes perform divergent functions in different tumor contexts, a stronger evidence in support of the oncogenic function of these two genes should be provided to make the data more convincing. As an example, the data in support of high STAMBPL1, FOXO and GRHL3 gene expression in TNBC TCGA specimens provided in Figure 8 is not very strong and it is not clear what the non-TNBC specimens are (whether other breast cancers or other tumors, perhaps those tumors whether these genes perform tumor suppressive functions). To strengthen the notion that STAMBPL1, FOXO and GRHL3 are overexpressed in TNCB, the authors could provide a comparison with normal tissue, as well as the analysis of other publicly available datasets (like the NCI Clinical Proteomic Tumor Analysis Consortium as an example). Finally, is it not clear what are the basal protein expression levels of STAMBPL1 in the cell lines used in this study, as based on the data presented in Figures 2D and F it appears that the protein is not expressed if not exogenously overexpressed. It would be helpful if the authors addressed this issue and provided further evidence of STAMBPL1 expression in TNBC cell lines.

      We appreciate the suggestions. In this study, we utilized the BCIP online tool to analyze the Metabric database, incorporating adjacent normal tissues as controls. Although the expression levels of STAMBPL1, FOXO1, and GRHL3 in breast cancer tissues are not uniformly higher than those in adjacent tissues, their expression levels in triple-negative breast cancer (TNBC) are significantly elevated compared to non-TNBC. The results of this re-analysis have been added in Supplementary Figure 6 as Fig.S6A-C.

      About the question of the basal protein expression levels of STAMBPL1 in the cell lines used in this study, our response is that Fig. 2A showed the endogenous level of STAMBPL1 in HCC1806 and HCC1937. For Fig. 2D and 2F, the overexpressed STAMBPL1 was fused with a 3xFlag tag, resulting in a higher molecular weight compared to the endogenous STAMBPL1. In the revised Figure 2, we have indicated the positions of the endogenous (Endo.) and exogenous (OE.) STAMBPL1 bands with arrows.

      (2) Linked to these considerations is the second major criticism, namely that it is not made clear if this new regulatory axis is proposed to act in normoxic or hypoxic conditions. The experiments presented in this paper are performed in both conditions but a clear explanation as to why cells are exposed to hypoxia is not given and would be necessary being that HIF-1a transcription and not protein stability is being analyzed. Also, different hypoxic conditions are sometimes used, resulting in different mRNA levels of HIF-1a and its downstream targets and quite significant fluctuations within the same cell line from one experimental setting to the next. The authors should provide an explanation as to why experimental conditions are changed and, more importantly, the experiments presented in Figure 2 should be performed also in normoxia.

      Thanks for the comments. Under normoxic conditions, HIF1α is recognized by pVHL due to hydroxylation and is rapidly degraded via the proteasomal pathway. In contrast, under hypoxic conditions, HIF1α protein is accumulated. To investigate the effect of STAMBPL1 knockdown on HIF1A gene transcription levels, we conducted experiments under hypoxic conditions to avoid interference from the rapid degradation of HIF1α at the protein level, as shown in Figures 2B-C. Furthermore, under normoxic conditions, the overexpression of STAMBPL1 had been demonstrated to significantly enhance the protein levels of HIF1α and upregulate the transcription of VEGFA through HIF1α. To avoid the potential impact of excessive accumulation of HIF1α protein under hypoxic conditions on its protein level detection and the transcription of downstream VEGFA, the related experiments shown in Figure 2D-G were performed under normoxic conditions. We have explained the corresponding experimental conditions in the “Result” and “Figure legends” according to the reviewer's comments, highlighted in red.

      (3) Another critical point is that necessary experimental controls are sometimes missing, and this is reducing the strength of some of the conclusions enunciated by the authors. As examples, experiments where overexpression of STAMBPL1 is coupled to silencing of FOXO1 to demonstrate dependency lack FOXO1 silencing the absence of STAMBPL1 overexpression. Because diminishing FOXO1 expression affects HIF-1a/VEGF transcription even in the absence of STAMBPL1 (shown in Figure 7C, D), it is not clear if the data presented in Figure 7G are significant. The difference between HIF-1a expression upon FOXO1 silencing should be compared in the presence or absence of STAMBPL1 overexpression to understand if FOXO1 impacts HIF-1a transcription dependently or independently of STAMBPL1.

      Thank you for this comment. For Fig.7G-H, our experimental objective was to determine whether the activation of HIF1A/VEGFA transcription by STAMBPL1 via FOXO1. Therefore, under STAMBPL1 overexpression, we knocked down FOXO1 to investigate whether FOXO1 silencing could reverse the upregulation of HIF1A/VEGFA transcription induced by STAMBPL1 overexpression.

      (4) In addition, some minor comments to improve the quality of this manuscript are provided.

      (4.1) As a general statement, the manuscript is extremely synthetic. While this is not necessarily a negative feature, sometimes results are discussed in the figure legends and not in the main text (as an example, western blots showing HIF-1a expression) and this makes it hard to read thought the data in an easy and enjoyable manner.

      Thank you for this suggestion. We have revised the figure legends to make them clearer and more concise, highlighted in red.

      (4.2) The effect of STAMBPL1 overexpression on HIF-1a transcription is minor (Figure 2) The authors should explain why they think this is the case and whether hypoxia may provide a molecular environment that is more permissive to this type of regulation.

      Thank you for the comment. Under normoxic conditions, we conducted WB to examine the protein expression of HIF1α after the overexpression of STAMBPL1 and the knockdown of HIF1α. To visually illustrate the impact of STAMBPL1 overexpression on HIF1A protein levels, as well as the effectiveness of HIF1α knockdown, we annotated the grayscale analysis results of the bands in Figures 2D and 2F. As the reviewer pointed out, under normoxic conditions, HIF1α is rapidly degraded, which may explain why the upregulation of HIF1α protein levels by STAMBPL1 overexpression is not very pronounced.

      (4.3) HIF-1a does not appear upregulated at the protein level protein by STAMBPL1 or GRLH3 overexpression, even though this is stated in the legends of Figures 2 and 6. The authors should show unsaturated western blots images and provide quantitative data of independent experiments to make this point.

      Thank you for this comment. We have added the unsaturated image of HIF1α into Fig.2D, and performed a grayscale analysis of the HIF1α bands in Fig.2D and Fig.6A to indicate the relative protein level of HIF1α.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) The authors previously reported that STAMBPL1 stabilizes MKP1 in TNBC. However, in this study, they focus on HIF1a. Given that STAMBPL1 affects HIF1a expression, it would be valuable to examine the levels of ROS in TNBC cells with or without STAMBPL1, as ROS is known to influence HIF1a stability.

      Thank you for your comments. It’s known that STAMBPL1 functions as a deubiquitinating enzyme. However, our study reveals that the upregulation of HIF1α by STAMBPL1 is independent of its deubiquitinating activity. This conclusion is supported by the observation that overexpression of the deubiquitinase active site mutant, STAMBPL1-E292A, also upregulated HIF1α expression (Figure 1F). Moreover, STAMBPL1 overexpression enhanced HIF1α transcription (Figures 4E and S3E), while STAMBPL1 knockdown was able to inhibit the transcription of HIF1α (Figures 2B-C). These results indicate that STAMBPL1 mediates the transcription of HIF1α but does not affect the stability of HIF1α. For these reasons, we think that it is unnecessary to examine the ROS levels.

      (2) Figure 1A: The regulation of HIF1a mRNA by STAMBPL1, but not its protein levels, could be better addressed by using MG132 to rule out the impact of protein degradation.

      Thanks for this comment. Under normoxic conditions, the oxygen-sensitive prolyl hydroxylases PHD1-3 act on HIF1α, specifically inducing hydroxylation at the proline 402 and 564 residues. These hydroxylated residues are recognized by the pVHL/E3 ubiquitin ligase complex, leading to ubiquitination and subsequent degradation via the proteasome pathway. Conversely, under hypoxic conditions, PHD1-3 are inactivated, and non-hydroxylated HIF1α is not recognized by the pVHL/E3 ubiquitin ligase complex, thereby avoiding ubiquitination and proteasomal degradation (DOI: 10.1073/pnas.95.14.7987, DOI: 10.1515/BC.2004.016, and DOI: 10.1042/BJ20040620). The mechanism of HIF1α accumulation under hypoxia is analogous to the action of the proteasome inhibitor MG132. When we treated cells with hypoxia, the ubiquitination and proteasomal degradation pathway of HIF1α was blocked. At this time, STAMBPL1 knockdown could downregulate the expression of HIF1α (Fig.1A). Meanwhile, since the knockdown of STAMBPL1 significantly downregulated the mRNA level of HIF1α under hypoxia (Fig.2B-C), we concluded that STAMBPL1 affects the expression of HIF1α by mediating its transcription. In addition, MG132 will block all proteasomal substrate degradation and may affect HIF1α mRNA levels indirectly.

      (3) Figure 2D and 2F: The effect of STAMBPL1 in promoting HIF1a expression is quite mild, and the effect of HIF1a knockdown is also modest. Given the high levels of STAMBPL1 in TNBC cell lines (Figure 2A), it would be better to repeat these experiments in a STAMBPL1-knockdown setting for clearer insights.

      We appreciate this insightful suggestion. Considering that the regulation of HIF1α expression by STAMBPL1 occurs at the transcriptional level, and to prevent excessive accumulation of HIF1a during hypoxia that could confound the effect of STAMBPL1 overexpression on HIF1α regulation, we opted to overexpress STAMBPL1 under normoxic conditions and subsequently knock down HIF1α, as shown in Fig.2D and Fig.2F. This approach allowed us to observe that STAMBPL1 overexpression can upregulate HIF1a expression to some extent. Additionally, in response to the reviewer's suggestion to knock down STAMBPL1, we have conducted the corresponding experiments, with results presented in Fig.1A-E and Fig.2B-C.

      (4) Figure 4A: Why does the RNA-seq pattern differ significantly between the two siRNAs? Additionally, the authors should clarify why they focus primarily on transcription factors, as other mechanisms, such as mRNA stability and RNA modification, could also influence gene transcription.

      Thank you for this comment. Two siRNAs for STAMBPL1 were designed and synthesized by a biotechnology company. Although both siRNAs target STAMBPL1, they target different sequences. While both siRNAs effectively knocked down STAMBPL1 (Fig. 1A and Fig. 2A), the possibility of off-target effects cannot be completely ruled out. Therefore, we needed to use two siRNAs simultaneously for RNA-seq, ensuring that the gene expression changes observed are due to the knockdown of STAMBPL1 by focusing on genes downregulated by both two siRNAs. Additionally, among the 27 genes downregulated by both two siRNAs, only 18 genes were annotated. Of these 18 genes, except for GRHL3, which is a transcription factor reported to be involved in gene transcription regulation, the remaining 17 genes have no documented association with RNA transcription, stability, or modification. Therefore, we focused on the GRHL3 gene.

      (5) Figure 5G: To investigate whether STAMBPL1 and GRHL3 function epistatically in the pathway, a double knockdown of STAMBPL1 and GRHL3 should be examined. Additionally, a double knockdown of STAMBPL1 and FOXO1 should be assessed.

      Thank you for your comment. In Figure 5G, we aimed to assess the knockdown efficiency of GRHL3 using siRNAs. To determine whether STAMBPL1 upregulates the HIF1a/VEGFA axis via GRHL3, we overexpressed STAMBPL1 and subsequently knocked down GRHL3. Our findings indicated that STAMBPL1 overexpression indeed enhanced the HIF1a/VEGFA axis, which was rescued by the knockdown of GRHL3, as shown in Figures 4E-F and S3E-F. Similarly, upon overexpressing STAMBPL1 and knocking down FOXO1, we observed that STAMBPL1 overexpression increased the GRHL3/HIF1a/VEGFA axis, which could also be rescued by knocking down FOXO1, as shown in Figures 7F-H. These results suggest that STAMBPL1 upregulates the GRHL3/HIF1a/VEGFA axis through FOXO1. We do not think it is a right way to double knock down STAMBPL1 and FOXO1 or GRHL3.

      (6) Figure 7: It remains unclear how STAMBPL1 regulates FOXO1. The authors show that STAMBPL1 increases the transcriptional activation of FOXO1 at the GRHL3 promoter, but it is not clear if STAMBPL1 is required for FOXO1 binding to the GRHL3 promoter. To address this, STAMBPL1-knockdown should be included to examine its effect on FOXO1 binding to the GRHL3 promoter. Furthermore, it would be important to determine whether the STAMBPL1-FOXO1 interaction is essential for GRHL3 transcription. Since the interaction sites of STAMBPL1-FOXO1 have been mapped, a mutant disrupting the interaction would provide better insight into how STAMBPL1 promotes GRHL3 transcription by interacting with FOXO1.

      Thank you for this comment. It has been reported that FOXO1 promotes the transcription of the GRHL3 gene by interacting with its promoter (DOI: 10.1093/nar/gkw1276). We also verified through ChIP assay that FOXO1 can bind to the promoter of GRHL3 gene (Fig.7I) and mediate its transcription. Specifically, knocking down FOXO1 significantly down-regulated the mRNA level of GRHL3 (Fig.7B), and the GRHL3 promoter lacking FOXO1 binding site almost completely lost transcriptional activity (Fig.7J), indicating that FOXO1 is crucial for the transcriptional activity of the GRHL3 promoter. Overexpression of STAMBPL1 enhances the activating effect of FOXO1 on the transcriptional activity of the GRHL3 promoter (Fig.7K). However, the up-regulation of GRHL3 transcription by overexpression of STAMBPL1 is completely blocked by FOXO1 knockdown (Fig.7F), and the knockdown of FOXO1 essentially blocks the binding of STAMBPL1 to the GRHL3 promoter (Fig.7L), suggesting that STAMBPL1 affects the transcriptional expression of GRHL3 based on FOXO1. As we added in Discussion, the transcription factor activity of FOXO1 is mainly regulated by its nucleoplasm shuttling process, and the accumulation of FOXO1 in nucleus can enhance its transcription factor activity (DOI: 10.1042/BJ20040167; DOI: 10.15252/embj.2022111867). In our research, neither STAMBPL1 nor its mutant of deubiquitinating enzyme site affected the expression of FOXO1 (Fig.S5E), but STAMBPL1 and FOXO1 co-located in the nucleus (Fig.7M), and they interacted with each other (Fig.7N, Fig.S5I-J). Therefore, we speculate that STAMBPL1 interacts with FOXO1 in the nucleus, obstructs the binding of FOXO1 with the members of 14-3-3 family, inhibits the export of FOXO1, thereby enhancing its transcriptional activity. This interaction between STAMBPL1 and FOXO1 does not necessarily affect the binding of FOXO1 with DNA, including the GRHL3 promoter.

      (7) Figure 8 A-C: What is the correlation among the expressions of STAMBPL1, FOXO1, and GRHL3 in TNBC tumors compared to non-TNBC tumors?

      Thank you for your comment. In Figure 8A-C, we analyzed the expression levels of STAMBPL1, FOXO1, and GRHL3 in both TNBC and non-TNBC samples using the BCIP. The results indicate that the expression levels of these three genes are significantly higher in TNBC compared to non-TNBC samples. To investigate the correlation among the expressions of STAMBPL1, FOXO1, and GRHL3 in TNBC versus non-TNBC, we further utilized the Metabric data. Besides the positive correlation trend between STAMBPL1 and GRHL3 expression in TNBC clinical samples (Pearson R = 0.27), no significant correlation was observed in the expression levels of STAMBPL1, FOXO1, and GRHL3 in TNBC and non-TNBC clinical samples (as shown in Author response image 1 below). Since STAMBPL1 and FOXO1 are involved as protein molecules in the transcriptional regulation of GRHL3 gene, and the data obtained from the Metabric database are the transcriptional levels of these three genes, this might be the reason why the correlation between their expressions was not observed.

      Author response image 1.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The authors have thoroughly elucidated the role of STAMBPL1 in TNBC. However, it would be beneficial to discuss the potential clinical implications of these findings, such as how targeting STAMBPL1 or FOXO1 might impact current treatment strategies for TNBC. However, several issues need to be addressed.

      Major:

      (1) While the study provides an exhaustive analysis of the molecular mechanisms, a comparison with other subtypes of breast cancer could enhance our understanding of the specificity of the STAMBPL1/FOXO1/GRHL3/HIF1α/VEGFA axis in TNBC.

      Thank you for your comment. According to report, STAMBPL1 is significantly associated with the mesenchymal characteristics of breast cancer (DOI: 10.1038/s41416-020-0972-x). We utilized cBioPortal (http://www.cbioportal.org/) to analyze the expression of STAMBPL1 across various clinical subtypes of breast cancer. The results indicated that STAMBPL1 is highly expressed in invasive breast cancer, which has been added to Supplementary Figure 6 as Fig.S6D. Given that TNBC is an aggressive type of invasive breast cancer, we further examined the expression of STAMBPL1 in TNBC compared to non-TNBC using BCIP (http://omicsnet.org/bcancer/database). Our findings revealed that the expression level of STAMBPL1 in TNBC was elevated relative to its levels in non-TNBC (Fig.8A). Additionally, since tumor angiogenesis is a critical factor influencing the metastasis of cancer cells, our study focused specifically on the pro-angiogenic effects of STAMBPL1 in TNBC.

      (2) The authors might consider discussing any potential off-target effects of the siRNA and shRNA used in the study to bolster the conclusions drawn from the knockdown experiments.

      We appreciate the reviewer's suggestion. It is well-known that siRNA or shRNA have off-target effects. To address this concern, we employed two siRNAs for each gene knockdown in our study. Specifically, we knocked down genes such as STAMBPL1, FOXO1, GRHL3, and HIF1A in two TNBC cell lines, HCC1806 and HCC1937, using two siRNAs. Except for siRNA#1 targeting HIF1A, which did not show a significant knockdown effect in HCC1806 cells (Fig.2D and Fig.6A), the knockdown effects of other siRNAs on their respective genes were effective, and the resulting phenotypes were consistent. As shown in Fig.2F and Fig.S4H, siRNA#1 targeting HIF1A had a significant knockdown effect in HCC1937 cells. The lower knockdown efficiency of this siRNA in HCC1806 cell line might be attributed to cell-specific factors.

      (3) It would be advantageous if the authors could provide further details on the patient demographics and tumor characteristics in the TCGA database analysis to better comprehend the clinical relevance of their findings.

      Thanks for the reviewer's suggestions. We have now indicated the number of clinical samples in each group in the legend of Fig.8A-C. Since we utilized the BCIP online database to analyze and compare the expression levels of the three genes STAMBPL1, FOXO1, and GRHL3 in TNBC and non-TNBC, we are unable to obtain more specific information regarding the tumor characteristics of each sample. However, our analysis clearly shows that the expression levels of these three genes are significantly higher in TNBC compared to non-TNBC.

      (4) The authors should consider discussing any limitations regarding the generalizability of their findings, such as potential variations among different TNBC subtypes or the specificity of their observations to certain stages of the disease.

      We appreciate the reviewer's comment. Accordingly, we have added a discussion on the limitation of this study in Discussion, highlighted in red font on pages 20 to 21, lines 396 to 412. In addition, we utilized the bc-GenExMiner online database to conduct a comparative analysis of STAMBPL1 expression in different subtypes of non-TNBC and TNBC. The result indicates that STAMBPL1 is highly expressed in mesenchymal-like and basal-like TNBC, which has been added into Supplementary Figure 6 as Fig.S6E. Since these two subtypes of TNBC are highly invasive and metastatic, it suggests that targeting the signaling pathway of STAMBPL1/FOXO1/GRHL3/HIF1α/VEGFA may offer clinical benefits for patients with invasive TNBC.

      Minor:

      The paper is generally well-written, but it's crucial to maintain vigilance for subject-verb agreement, proper use of tense, and consistent terminology.

      Thank you for this suggestion. We have thoroughly revised the article for issues such as grammar, including tense, subject-verb agreement, and terminology.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer #1:

      Summary:

      In this manuscript (eLife-RP-RA-2024-103904), the authors identified that NOLC1 was upregulated in gastric cancer samples, which promoted cancer progression and cisplatin resistance. They further found that NOLC1 could bind to p53 and decrease its nuclear transcriptional activity, then inhibit p53-mediated ferroptosis. There are several major concerns regarding the conclusions.

      Strengths:

      This study identified that NOLC1 could bind to p53 and decrease its nuclear transcriptional activity, then inhibit p53-mediated ferroptosis in gastric cancer.

      Weaknesses:

      The major conclusions were not sufficiently supported by the results. The experiments were not conducted in a comprehensive manner.

      Major concerns

      (1) The authors investigated NOLC1 expression in gastric cancer (GC) using clinical samples, which is valuable; however, the sample array includes only 3 patients. This sample size is insufficient to support conclusions for human samples. Please increase the sample size and apply a more robust statistical analysis. Additionally, specify the statistical methods used in the figure legend.

      Thanks very much for the kind comments and great suggestions. As suggested, we have increased the sample size of GC patients, and the new data (six pair samples) was shown in Fig. S1A, further reflecting that NOLC1 was upregulate in gastric cancer (GC). Moreover, the statistical methods have been added in each figure legend.

      (2) These data are not sufficient to support the key conclusion of this study "NOLC1 is significantly upregulated in GC tissues and Cis-resistant GC cells". There is no convincing data showing that NOLC1 upregulation is specific to cancer cells or any other cell types. Based on the following results that NOLC1 expressed in cancer cells can support cancer cell survival and drug resistance, the authors switched to investigating the role of NOLC1 in cancer cells without demonstrating cancer cells indeed highly upregulate NOLC1.

      Thanks for raising this good question. As shown in Fig. 1E-F, the TCGA database have shown that NOLC1 was upregulated in GC. Moreover, we further analyzed the NOLC1 expression level in other cancer type, according to the Human Protein Atlas (https://www.proteinatlas.org/). The results indicated that NOLC1 mRNA level was much higher in almost all cancers except acute myeloid leukemia (LAML). In addition, according to the gene expression profiling interactive analysis (GEPIA, http://gepia.cancer-pku.cn/index.html), NOLC1 mRNA level was above 100 nTPM in most gastric cancer cell lines, however in most non-cancerous cell lines was below 100 nTPM, indicating that NOLC1 was up-regulated in gastric cancer.

      Author response image 1.

      The mRNA level of NOLC1 in different GC cells and non-cancerous cells.

      (3) The authors primarily use MGC-803 cells for experiments; however, MGC-803 is known to be a HeLa-contaminated cell line. Could the authors explain this choice of using this cell line only? Did they validate key findings with additional cell lines? This is particularly important for assays such as cisplatin resistance validation, in vivo experiments, TEM imaging, and MitoPeDPP fluorescence imaging.

      Thanks for raising this good question. We are not only use MGC-803 cells, the key findings in vitro was also validated in MKN-45 cells (Fig. 2), and in vivo experiment also validated in Mouse Forestomach Carcinoma cells (MFC)-tumor bearing 615 mice model (Fig 7). Furthermore, we further added some experiments in MKN-45 cells. The TEM imaging showed that NOLC1 could significantly inhibit cisplatin (Cis) induced lipid membrane damage in MKN-45 cells (Fig. S6A). Moreover, MitoPeDPP fluorescence assay analyzed by FCAs also indicating that rapid ROS was enriched in mitochondria in MKN-45 cells (Fig. 4E, Fig. S6J).

      (4) In Figure 2, did the authors perform assays with NOLC1 overexpression? If so, please include these results to strengthen the conclusions.

      Thanks very much for the kind comments and great suggestions. As suggested, we added new data about NOLC1 overexpression assay Cell counting kit-8 assay shows that NOLC1-overexpression group is more resistance to Cis compared to vector group (Fig. S4E, S5A).

      (5) The authors show in Figures 2A-B that shNOLC1 without cisplatin treatment does not affect cell viability. However, Figures 2D-E suggest increased apoptosis in shNOLC1 cells without cisplatin treatment. Additionally, in vivo studies in Figure 3 show no significant difference between the shNC+PBS and shNOLC1+PBS groups, which appears contradictory to the apoptosis assays. Similarly, Ki67 staining shows decreased scores in the shNOLC1 group compared to shNC. Could the authors clarify this inconsistency?

      Thanks for raising this good question. In Fig 2D-E, the difference in proportion of death cells between shNOLC1 and shNC treated with PBS groups were only 3% (MGC-803) and 7% (MKN-45) which is much lower than that treated with cisplatin in vitro. Moreover, in vivo analysis indicated that the average tumor volume in NOLC1+PBS group was smaller than that in NC group, but there was no statistical significance (p value = 0.3962). Moreover, tumor proliferation is a complex process regulated by many factors [1,2], thus the level of Ki67 is by no means the same as the rate of tumor proliferation, might be positively correlated.

      (6) In Figure 4, NOLC1 knockdown appears to enhance cisplatin-induced ferroptosis rather than apoptosis. Given p53's role in apoptosis, did the authors compare the effects of NOLC1 on cisplatin-induced apoptosis vs. ferroptosis? If so, please clarify whether NOLC1 predominantly regulates apoptosis or ferroptosis.

      Thanks for raising this good question. We do have compared the effects of NOLC1 on cisplatin-induced apoptosis vs. ferroptosis. As shown in Fig. 5A, NOLC1 knockdown obviously increased the BCL-2 protein level which is an anti-apoptotic protein and mediated by p53 via protein interaction in cytoplasm[3,4], this phenomenon may cause by the increasing level of p53 in cytoplasm (Fig. 6I). Also, the TEM imaging showed the classic ferroptotic morphological changes rather than apoptosis (Fig. 5A, S6A). Taken together, NOLC1 mainly regulates p53 mediated ferroptosis rather than apoptosis.

      (7) Did the authors perform co-IP assays with p53 or HA antibodies to immunocapture NOLC1? If not, please add this experiment to support protein interactions. The mechanistic correlation between p53 and NOLC1 can be supported by adding experiments using multiple GC cell lines with various p53 alterations (such as loss-of- function or gain-of-function mutations/deletions). This is critical because the authors specifically claimed that NOLC1 can inhibit p53-mediated ferroptosis, but not other tumor suppressors.

      Thanks very much for the kind comments and great suggestions. As suggested, we had performed Co-IP assay with anti-HA antibodies to immunocapture NOLC1-FLAG. As shown in Fig. 5K, p53 DNA binding domain (DBD)-HA could immunocapture with NOLC1, further indicated that NOLC1 could binding to p53 DBD. Moreover, we concur with the reviewer that adding experiments using multiple p53 alterations, however considering that different p53 mutants have completely different functional changes. Therefore, we using siRNA to knockdown p53 level in MGC-803 cells, the results shown that NOLC1 mediated resistance was disappear and the GPX4 level was increased (Fig. S10). These data have shown that NOLC1 promotes GC resistance via mediated p53 functions.

      (8) In Figure S5B, the LDH release can be blocked by Fer-1?

      Thanks for raising this good question. As suggested, Fer-1 (20 μmol/mL) significantly blocked the LDH release in NOLC1 knockdown group (Fig S6E). This data further confirmed that NOLC1 suppressed Cis-induced ferroptosis.

      (9) How about the ubiquitination assay in MGC-803 cells?

      Thanks for raising this good question. As suggested, we also analyzed the ubiquitination assay in MGC-803 cells. As the result showed that NOLC1 also could increasing level of ubiquitination of p53 (Fig. 6H).

      (10) In Figure 6H, the DBD domain of NOLC1 is required for inhibiting P53 ubiquitination.

      Thanks for your opinion. However, in our paper, we only mentioned that p53 DBD domain, rather than NOLC1 DBD domain. Also, we did not find any DNA binding function of NOLC1 in the Pubmed database. Therefore, we would like to ask whether the revised opinion is correct.

      (11) In Figure 8B, the CD3 antibody is not specific, please change it to a new one.

      Thanks very much for the kind comments and great suggestions. As suggested, we have used new CD3 antibody and the new data was added in Fig. 8B.

      (12) The authors report that NOLC1 influences peripheral blood lymphocytes with cisplatin treatment, with or without PD-1. Could the authors explain why NOLC1 would affect peripheral blood lymphocytes? Additionally, did they assess immune cell infiltration in the tumor microenvironment (TME) by flow cytometry?

      Thanks for raising good question. The tumor size of the knockdown group treated with Cis + PD-1 was too small (less than 100 mg) to extract enough infiltrated immune cells (less than 10000 CD45<sup>+</sup> cells), thus we chose to detect immune cells in the blood of the mice. Considering that the infiltrating immune cells including CTLs were originate from peripheral blood by circulation. Under the normal conditions, serval tumor biology behavior impact the TME to limit immune responses and present barriers to cancer therapy. For example, tumor could express or secret lots of negative regulator like PD-L1. Causing immune cells cannot recognize tumor cells and infiltrate into tumor tissue. Ferroptosis, as a new from of ICD, could damage tumor cell plasm and release amount of tumor associated antigen and tumor-specific antigens causing immune cells priming and activation. Eventually, the activated immune cells in peripheral blood travel towards the tumor site, infiltrating the tumor tissue under favorable co-stimulatory conditions and guided by chemokine gradients. Once within the tumor microenvironment, these activated T cells can control tumor growth through direct tumor cell destruction and cytokine-mediated processes [5–8]

      To assess immune cell infiltration in the TME, we analyzed the tumor infiltrated CD3<sup>+</sup> and CD8<sup>+</sup> immune cells in tumor tissue by immunofluorescence (Fig. 8B). Thus, the peripheral blood lymphocytes could reflect the infiltration of immune cells in the tumor.

      Minor concerns:

      (1) Please clarify the statistical methods in each figure legend.

      Thanks for your opinion. We have added statistical methods in each figure legend.

      (2) In Figure 2D, please provide statistical data of cleaved-caspase3 expression.

      Thanks for your opinion. As is shown in Fig. S5B-C, the relative cleaved-caspase3 were provided.

      (3) Please ensure that the canonical expressions used in the research paper are adhered to.

      Thanks for your opinion. We have carefully modified our expressions in our paper.

      (4) Please pay more attention to the grammar and formatting of texts.

      Thanks for your opinion. We revised our manuscript through the American Journal Experts (AJE) service.

      Reviewer #2:

      Summary:

      Shengsheng Zhao et al. investigated the role of nucleolar and coiled-body phosphoprotein 1 (NOLC1) in relegating gastric cancer (GC) development and cisplatin-induced drug resistance in GC. They found a significant correlation between high NOLC1 expression and the poor prognosis of GC. Meanwhile, upregulation of NOLC1 was associated with cis-resistant GC. Experimentally, the authors demonstrate that knocking down NOLC1 increased GC sensitivity to Cis possibly by regulating ferroptosis. Mechanistically, they found NOLC1 suppressed ferroptosis by blocking the translocation of p53 from the cytoplasm to the nucleus and promoting its degradation. In addition, The authors also evaluated the effect of combinational treatment of anti- PD-1 and cisplatin in NOLC1-knockdown tumor cells, revealing a potential role of NOLC1 in the targeted therapy for GC.

      Strengths:

      Chemoresistance is considered a major reason causing failure of tumor treatment and death of cancer patients. This paper explored the role of NOLC1 in the regulation of Cis-mediated resistance, which involves a regulated cell death named ferroptosis. These findings provide more evidence highlighting the study of regulated cell death to overcome drug resistance in cancer treatment, which could give us more potential strategies or targets for combating cancer.

      Weaknesses:

      More evidence supporting the regulation of ferroptosis induced by Cisplatin by NOLC1 should be added. Particularly, the role of ferroptosis in the cisplatin-resistance should be verified and whether NOLC1 regulates ferroptosis induced by additional FINs should be explored. Besides, the experiments to verify the regulation of ferroptosis sensitivity by NOLC1 are sort of superficial. The role of MDM2/p53 in ferroptosis or cisplatin resistance mediated by NOLC1 should be further studied by genetic manipulation of p53, which is the key evidence to confirm its contribution to NOLC1 regulation of GC and relative cell death.

      Major points:

      (1) More evidence supporting the regulation of ferroptosis induced by Cisplatin by NOLC1 should be added. Particularly, the role of ferroptosis in the cisplatin-resistance should be verified and whether NOLC1 regulates ferroptosis induced by additional FINs should be explored.

      Thanks very much for the kind comments and great suggestions. As suggested, we have further analyzed the ferroptosis inhibit ability of NOLC1 in MGC-45 cells treated with Erastin, a common used ferroptosis activator. As shown in Fig. S6B, the ferroptosis activated by Erastin was also blocked by NOLC1.

      (2) In Figure 1J, the CR cell line should obviously have less apoptosis-maker c-PARP expression, which means these cells are resistant to apoptosis induced by CR. Thus, it would be more rational to study the role of apoptosis regulation by NOLC1. Why did the later data shift to the study of ferroptosis?

      Thanks for raising this good question. In the CR cells, the expression levels of many genes were changed, so it is uncertain whether the decreased expression level of cleaved-PARP in the resistant cells is caused by NOLC1 up-regulated. To explore the specific mechanism of NOLC1 mediated resistant, we performed the TEM imaging (Fig. 4A, S6A) and the results showed that cells exhibited classic ferroptosis morphological changes. Moreover, the BCL-2 (an anti-apoptotic protein, and regulated by p53 via protein interaction in cytoplasm) was increased after NOLC1 knockdown (Fig S5A). This phenomenon may cause by the increasing p53 levels in the cytoplasm[3,4] (Fig 5I). Taken together we shift to study of cisplatin induced ferroptosis.

      (3) Besides, how about the regulation of apoptosis during cis-resistance by NOLC1 in GC?

      Thanks for raising this good question. As mentioned above the Cis induced apoptosis was not as significant as ferroptosis, caused by BCL-2 (a key anti-apoptosis protein) increasing which is mediated by p53 via protein interaction in cytoplasm. NOLC1 increased plasm p53 level subsequently increased BCL-2 level.

      (4) The experiments to verify the regulation of ferroptosis sensitivity by NOLC1 are sort of superficial. The role of MDM2/p53 in ferroptosis or cisplatin resistance mediated by NOLC1 should be further studied by genetic manipulation of p53, which is the key evidence to confirm its contribution to NOLC1 regulation of GC and relative cell death.

      Thanks for raising this good question. As is shown in Fig S10, after knockdown p53 protein level by using siRNA, NOLC1 could not promote Cis-resistance and the GPX4 level was increased reflecting that NOLC1 promotes Cis resistance via mediate p53 function.

      (5) In Figure 2, the data indicated that the knockdown of NOLC1 increased rH2Ax in the presence of Cisplatin, which indicated that NOLC1 might regulate DNA damage-related cellular function. These functions should be more relevant to cisplatin resistance, considering the fundamental effect of this chemo drug.

      Thanks very much for the kind comments and great suggestions. Indeed, we found that DNA damage was more obvious in knockdown groups, but the ferroptotic changes like ROS and mitochondrial membrane damage were also significantly different in knockdown groups. Considering that as a chemo drug, cisplatin not only induces damage DNA but also acts as a stress which could activates various signal pathways including apoptosis, ferroptosis, pyroptosis, necroptosis, etc., under different drug concentrate or time [9–11]. Therefore, it is important to find out the NOLC1 predominantly blocked pathway in GC.

      (6) In Figure.4, ferroptosis inhibitors like Ferr-1 or DFO should be used to verify the regulation of ferroptosis by Cisplatin and NOLC1.

      Thanks very much for the kind comments and great suggestions. As suggested, we performed additional LDH release assay. The results showed that Fer-1 also could block cisplatin induced LDH release in NOLC1 knockdown groups (Fig. S6E).

      (7) In Figure 4H, Cisplatin decreased FSP1 and GPX4, which could be enhanced in the NOLC1-konckdown cell line. Meanwhile, the knockdown of NOLC1 increased the ACSL4 level. These findings could be the key reason for the regulation of ferroptosis by NOLC1 rather than p53 since they all are direct regulators of ferroptosis.

      Thanks very much for the kind comments and great suggestions. We rewrote the text as you suggested. Recently, it also has been reported that ACSL4-regulated ferroptosis is related to p53, but the exact mechanism is still unclear [12]. Moreover, further studies of specific relation between NOLC1 and FSP1/ACSL4 will be conducted in the further

      (8) Whether p53 mediates the regulation of ferroptosis and cisplatin resistance by NOLC1 should be thoroughly studied using p53-KO cell lines.

      Thanks very much for the kind comments and great suggestions. As previously mentioned, by using si-RNA to knockdown p53, the NOLC1 mediate Cis-resistance were blocked (Fig. S10). Meanwhile, the GPX4 level was also increased in p53/NOLC1 double-knockdown groups compared to the NOLC1 knockdown group. These data indicating that NOLC1 suppresses ferroptosis via mediating p53 functions.

      Reviewer #3:

      The authors have put forth a compelling argument that NOLC1 is indispensable for gastric cancer resistance in both in vivo and in vitro models. They have further elucidated that NOLC1 silencing augments cisplatin-induced ferroptosis in gastric cancer cells. The mechanistic underpinning of their findings suggests that NOLC1 modulates the p53 nuclear/plasma ratio by engaging with the p53 DNA Binding Domain, which in turn impedes p53-mediated transcriptional regulation of ferroptosis. Additionally, the authors have shown that NOLC1 knockdown triggers the release of ferroptosis-induced damage-associated molecular patterns (DAMPs), which activate the tumor microenvironment (TME) and enhance the efficacy of the anti-PD-1 and cisplatin combination therapy.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript presents a robust dataset that substantiates the authors' conclusion. They have identified NOLC1 as a potential oncogene that confers resistance to immuno-chemotherapy in gastric cancer through the mediation of ferroptosis and subsequent TME reprogramming. This discovery positions NOLC1 as a promising therapeutic target for gastric cancer treatment. The authors have delineated a novel mechanistic pathway whereby NOLC1 suppresses p53 transcriptional functions by reducing its nuclear/plasma ratio, underscoring the significance of p53 nuclear levels in tumor suppression over total protein levels.

      Weaknesses:

      While the overall findings are commendable, there are specific areas that could benefit from further refinement. The authors have posited that NOLC1 suppresses p53- mediated ferroptosis; however, the mRNA levels of ferroptosis genes regulated by p53 have not been quantified, which is a critical gap in the current study. In Figure 4A, transmission electron microscopy (TEM) results are reported solely for the MGC-803 cell line. It would be beneficial to include TEM data for the MKN-45 cell line to strengthen the findings. The authors have proposed a link between NOLC1-mediated reduction in the p53 nuclear/plasma ratio and gastric cancer resistance, yet the correlation between this ratio and patient prognosis remains unexplored, which is a significant limitation in the context of clinical relevance.

      Thanks very much for the kind comments and great suggestions. As suggested, recently studies have reported that CDKN1A (also called p21, a p53 transcriptional mediated protein) could promotes ferroptosis[13], the mRNA levels of ferroptosis genes regulated by p53 have were quantified in Fig. S8G-H. Moreover, we further proceed TEM imaging in MKN-45 cells, the result was consistent to MGC-803 cells, reflecting that NOLC1 has a broad spectrum of promoting drug resistance in gastric cancer. Also, recently studies have reported that p53 transcriptional active and p53 transcriptional inactive types include patients with intermediate prognosis and recurrence rates, with the p53-acvtie group showing better prognosis[14]. Considering p53 transcriptional activity depends on p53 nuclear accumulation, we assume that the low level of p53 nuclear/plasma may cause poor prognosis in gastric cancer. Meanwhile we will further collect enough samples and their prognostic information to analysis NOLC1-mediated reduction in the p53 nuclear/plasma ratio and gastric cancer resistance.

      References

      (1) Z. Seferbekova, A. Lomakin, L.R. Yates, M. Gerstung, Spatial biology of cancer evolution, Nat Rev Genet 24 (2023) 295–313. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41576-022-00553-x.

      (2) T. Matsuoka, M. Yashiro, Molecular Mechanism for Malignant Progression of Gastric Cancer Within the Tumor Microenvironment, IJMS 25 (2024) 11735. https://doi.org/10.3390/ijms252111735.

      (3) Y. Liu, Z. Su, O. Tavana, W. Gu, Understanding the complexity of p53 in a new era of tumor suppression, Cancer Cell (2024) S1535610824001338. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ccell.2024.04.009.

      (4) R. Pan, V. Ruvolo, H. Mu, J.D. Leverson, G. Nichols, J.C. Reed, M. Konopleva, M. Andreeff, Synthetic Lethality of Combined Bcl-2 Inhibition and p53 Activation in AML: Mechanisms and Superior Antileukemic Efficacy, Cancer Cell 32 (2017) 748-760.e6. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ccell.2017.11.003.

      (5) E. Catanzaro, M. Beltrán-Visiedo, L. Galluzzi, D.V. Krysko, Immunogenicity of cell death and cancer immunotherapy with immune checkpoint inhibitors, Cell Mol Immunol 22 (2024) 24–39. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41423-024-01245-8.

      (6) G. Lei, L. Zhuang, B. Gan, The roles of ferroptosis in cancer: Tumor suppression, tumor microenvironment, and therapeutic interventions, Cancer Cell 42 (2024) 513–534. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ccell.2024.03.011.

      (7) E. Catanzaro, R. Demuynck, F. Naessens, L. Galluzzi, D.V. Krysko, Immunogenicity of ferroptosis in cancer: a matter of context?, Trends in Cancer 10 (2024) 407–416. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.trecan.2024.01.013.

      (8) X. Jiang, B.R. Stockwell, M. Conrad, Ferroptosis: mechanisms, biology and role in disease, Nat Rev Mol Cell Biol 22 (2021) 266–282. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41580-020-00324-8.

      (9) J.-L. Roh, E.H. Kim, H. Jang, D. Shin, Nrf2 inhibition reverses the resistance of cisplatin-resistant head and neck cancer cells to artesunate-induced ferroptosis, Redox Biology 11 (2017) 254–262. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.redox.2016.12.010.

      (10) X. Wang, Y. Zhou, D. Wang, Y. Wang, Z. Zhou, X. Ma, X. Liu, Y. Dong, Cisplatin-induced ototoxicity: From signaling network to therapeutic targets, Biomedicine & Pharmacotherapy 157 (2023) 114045. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biopha.2022.114045.

      (11) J. Liang, G. Bi, Y. Huang, G. Zhao, Q. Sui, H. Zhang, Y. Bian, J. Yin, Q. Wang, Z. Chen, C. Zhan, MAFF confers vulnerability to cisplatin-based and ionizing radiation treatments by modulating ferroptosis and cell cycle progression in lung adenocarcinoma, Drug Resistance Updates 73 (2024) 101057. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.drup.2024.101057.

      (12) M.Y. Kosim, T. Fukazawa, M. Miyauchi, N. Hirohashi, K. Tanimoto, p53 status modifies cytotoxic activity of lactoferrin under hypoxic conditions, Front. Pharmacol. 13 (2022) 988335. https://doi.org/10.3389/fphar.2022.988335.

      (13) Q. Gao, J. Chen, C. Li, J. Zhan, X. Yin, B. Li, H. Dong, L. Luo, Z. Li, CDKN1A promotes Cis-induced AKI by inducing cytoplasmic ROS production and ferroptosis, Food and Chemical Toxicology 193 (2024) 115003. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.fct.2024.115003.

      (14) R. Cristescu, Molecular analysis of gastric cancer identifies subtypes associated with distinct clinical outcomes, Nature Medicine (2015).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study aimed at replicating two previous findings that showed (1) a link between prediction tendencies and neural speech tracking, and (2) that eye movements track speech. The main findings were replicated which supports the robustness of these results. The authors also investigated interactions between prediction tendencies and ocular speech tracking, but the data did not reveal clear relationships. The authors propose a framework that integrates the findings of the study and proposes how eye movements and prediction tendencies shape perception.

      Strengths:

      This is a well-written paper that addresses interesting research questions, bringing together two subfields that are usually studied in separation: auditory speech and eye movements. The authors aimed at replicating findings from two of their previous studies, which was overall successful and speaks for the robustness of the findings. The overall approach is convincing, methods and analyses appear to be thorough, and results are compelling.

      Weaknesses:

      Linking the new to the previous studies could have been done in more detail, and the extent to which results were replicated could have been discussed more thoroughly.

      Eye movement behavior could have been presented in more detail and the authors could have attempted to understand whether there is a particular component in eye movement behavior (e.g., microsaccades) that drives the observed effects.

      We would like to thank you for your time and effort in reviewing our work and we appreciate the positive comments!

      We extended our manuscript, now providing intermediate results on individual prediction tendency, which can be compared to our results from Schubert et al., (2023).

      Furthermore, we expanded our discussion now detailing the extent to which our results (do not) replicate the previous findings (e.g. differences in horizontal vs. vertical ocular speech tracking, lack of distractor tracking, link between ocular speech tracking and behavioral outcomes).

      While we agree with the reviewer that it is an important and most interesting question, to what extent individual features of gaze behavior (such as microsaccades, blinks etc.) contribute to the ocular speech tracking effect, it is beyond the scope of the current manuscript. It will be methodologically and conceptually challenging to distinguish these features from one another and to relate them to diverse cognitive processes. We believe that a separate manuscript is needed to give these difficult questions sufficient space for new methodological approaches and control analyses. The primary goal of this manuscript was to replicate the findings of Gehmacher et al. (2024) using similar methods and to relate them to prediction tendencies, attention, and neural speech tracking. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary

      Schubert et al. recorded MEG and eye-tracking activity while participants were listening to stories in single-speaker or multi-speaker speech. In a separate task, MEG was recorded while the same participants were listening to four types of pure tones in either structured (75% predictable) or random (25%) sequences. The MEG data from this task was used to quantify individual 'prediction tendency': the amount by which the neural signal is modulated by whether or not a repeated tone was (un)predictable, given the context. In a replication of earlier work, this prediction tendency was found to correlate with 'neural speech tracking' during the main task. Neural speech tracking is quantified as the multivariate relationship between MEG activity and speech amplitude envelope. Prediction tendency did not correlate with 'ocular speech tracking' during the main task. Neural speech tracking was further modulated by local semantic violations in the speech material, and by whether or not a distracting speaker was present. The authors suggest that part of the neural speech tracking is mediated by ocular speech tracking. Story comprehension was negatively related to ocular speech tracking.

      Strengths

      This is an ambitious study, and the authors' attempt to integrate the many reported findings related to prediction and attention in one framework is laudable. The data acquisition and analyses appear to be done with great attention to methodological detail (perhaps even with too much focus on detail-see below). Furthermore, the experimental paradigm used is more naturalistic than was previously done in similar setups (i.e. stories instead of sentences).

      Weaknesses

      For many of the key variables and analysis choices (e.g. neural/ocular speech tracking, prediction tendency, mediation) it is not directly clear how these relate to the theoretical entities under study, and why they were quantified in this particular way. Relatedly, while the analysis pipeline is outlined in much detail, an overarching rationale and important intermediate results are often missing, which makes it difficult to judge the strength of the evidence presented. Furthermore, some analysis choices appear rather ad-hoc and should be made uniform and/or better motivated.

      We would like to thank you very much for supporting our paper and your thoughtful feedback!

      To address your concerns, that our theoretical entities as well as some of our analytical choices lack transparency, we expanded our manuscript in several ways:

      (1) We now provide the intermediate results of our prediction tendency analysis (see new Figure 2 of our manuscript). These results are comparable to our findings from Schubert et al. (2023), demonstrating that on a group level there is a tendency to pre-activate auditory stimuli of high probability and illustrating the distribution of this tendency value in our subject population.

      (2) We expanded our methods section in order to explain our analytical choices (e.g. why this particular entropy modulation paradigm was used to measure individual prediction tendency).

      (3) We now provide an operationalisation of the terms “neural speech tracking” and “ocular speech tracking” at their first mention, to make these metrics more transparent to the reader.

      (4) We are summarizing important methodological information ahead of each results section, in order to provide the reader with a comprehensible background, without the necessity to read through the detailed methods section. 

      (5) We expanded our discussion section, with a special emphasis on relating the key variables of the current investigation to theoretical entities.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this paper, the authors measured neural activity (using MEG) and eye gaze while individuals listened to speech from either one or two speakers, which sometimes contained semantic incongruencies.

      The stated aim is to replicate two previous findings by this group: (1) that there is "ocular speech tracking" (that eye-movements track the audio of the speech), (2) that individual differences in neural response to tones that are predictable vs. not-predictable in their pitch is linked to neural response to speech. In addition, here they try to link the above two effects to each other, and to link "attention, prediction, and active sensing".

      Strengths:

      This is an ambitious project, that tackles an important issue and combines different sources of data (neural data, eye-movements, individual differences in another task) in order to obtain a comprehensive "model" of the involvement of eye-movements in sensory processing.

      The authors use many adequate methods and sophisticated data-analysis tools (including MEG source analysis and multivariate statistical models) in order to achieve this.

      Weaknesses:

      Although I sympathize with the goal of the paper and agree that this is an interesting and important theoretical avenue to pursue, I am unfortunately not convinced by the results and find that many of the claims are very weakly substantiated in the actual data.

      Since most of the analyses presented here are derivations of statistical models and very little actual data is presented, I found it very difficult to assess the reliability and validity of the results, as they currently stand. I would be happy to see a thoroughly revised version, where much more of the data is presented, as well as control analyses and rigorous and well-documented statistical testing (including addressing multiple comparisons).

      We thank you for your thoughtful feedback. We appreciate your concerns and will address them below in greater detail.

      These are the main points of concern that I have regarding the paper, in its current format.

      (1) Prediction tendencies - assessed by listening to sequences of rhythmic tones, where the pitch was either "predictable" (i.e., followed a fixed pattern, with 25% repetition) or "unpredictable" (no particular order to the sounds). This is a very specific type of prediction, which is a general term that can operate along many different dimensions. Why was this specific design selected? Is there theoretical reason to believe that this type of prediction is also relevant to "semantic" predictions or other predictive aspects of speech processing?

      Theoretical assumptions and limitations of our quantification of individual prediction tendency are now shortly summarized in the first paragraph of our discussion section. With this paradigm we focus on anticipatory “top-down” predictions, whilst controlling for possibly confounding “bottom-up” processes. Since this study aimed to replicated our previous work we chose the same entropy-modulation paradigm as in other studies from our group (e.g. Demarchi et al. 2019, Schubert et al. 2023;2024, Reisinger et al. 2024), which has proven to give reproducible findings of feature-specific preactivations of sounds in a context of low entropy. One advantage of this design is that it gives us the opportunity to directly compare the processing of “predictable” and “unpredictable” sounds of the same frequency in a time-resolved manner (this argument is now also included in the Methods section).

      Regarding the question to what extent this type of prediction might also be relevant to “semantic” predictions we would like to refer to our previous study (Schubert et al., 2023), where we explicitly looked at the interaction between individual prediction tendency and encoding of semantic violations in the cortex. (In short, there we found a spatially dissociable interaction effect, indicating an increased encoding of semantic violations that scales with prediction tendency in the left hemisphere, as well as a disrupted encoding of semantic violations for individuals with stronger prediction tendency in the right hemisphere.) We did not aim to replicate all our findings in the current study, but instead we focused on merging the most important results from two independent phenomena in the domain of speech processing and bringing them into a common framework. However, as now stated in our discussion, we believe that “predictions are directly linked to the interpretation of sensory information. This interpretation is likely to occur at different levels along the cognitive (and anatomical) hierarchy…” and that “this type of prediction is relevant for acoustic processing such as speech and music, whose predictability unfolds over time.”

      (2) On the same point - I was disappointed that the results of "prediction tendencies" were not reported in full, but only used later on to assess correlations with other metrics. Even though this is a "replication" of previous work, one would like to fully understand the results from this independent study. On that note, I would also appreciate a more detailed explanation of the method used to derive the "prediction tendency" metric (e.g, what portion of the MEG signal is used? Why use a pre-stimulus and not a post-stimulus time window? How is the response affected by the 3Hz steady-state response that it is riding on? How are signals integrated across channels? Can we get a sense of what this "tendency" looks like in the actual neural signal, rather than just a single number derived per participant (an illustration is provided in Figure 1, but it would be nice to see the actual data)? How is this measure verified statistically? What is its distribution across the sample? Ideally, we would want enough information for others to be able to replicate this finding).

      We now included a new figure (similar to Schubert et al. 2023) showing the interim results of the “prediction tendency” effect as well as individual prediction tendency values of all subjects.

      Furthermore we expanded the description of the “prediction tendency” metric in the Methods section, where we explain our analytical choices in more detail. In particular we used a pre-stimulus time window in order to capture “anticipatory predictions”. The temporally predictably design gives us the opportunity to capture this type of predictions. The integration across channels is handled by the multivariate pattern analysis (MVPA), which inherently integrates multidimensional data (as mentioned in the methods section we used data from 102 magnetometers) and links it to (in this case) categorical information.

      (3) Semantic violations - half the nouns ending sentences were replaced to create incongruent endings. Can you provide more detail about this - e.g., how were the words selected? How were the recordings matched (e.g., could they be detected due to audio editing?)? What are the "lexically identical controls that are mentioned"? Also, is there any behavioral data to know how this affected listeners? Having so many incongruent sentences might be annoying/change the nature of listening. Were they told in advance about these?

      We expanded the Methods section and included the missing information: 

      “We randomly selected half of the nouns that ended a sentence (N = 79) and replaced them with the other half to induce unexpected semantic violations. The swap of nouns happened in the written script before the audio material was recorded in order to avoid any effects of audio clipping. Narrators were aware of the semantic violations and had been instructed to read out the words as normal. Consequently all target words occurred twice in the text, once in a natural context (serving as lexical controls) and once in a mismatched context (serving as semantic violations) within each trial, resulting in two sets of lexically identical words that differed greatly in their contextual probabilities (see Figure 1F for an example). Participants were unaware of these semantic violations.” Since we only replaced 79 words with semantic violations in a total of ~ 24 minutes of audio material we believe that natural listening was not impaired. In fact none of the participants mentioned to have noticed the semantic violations during debriefing (even though they had an effect on speech tracking in the brain). 

      (4) TRF in multi-speaker condition: was a univariate or multivariate model used? Since the single-speaker condition only contains one speech stimulus - can we know if univariate and multivariate models are directly comparable (in terms of variance explained)? Was any comparison to permutations done for this analysis to assess noise/chance levels?

      For mTRF models it depends on the direction (“encoding” vs. “decoding”) whether or not the model is comparable to a univariate model. In our case of an encoding model the TRFs are fitted to each MEG channel independently. This gives us the possibility to explore the effect over different areas (whereas a multivariate “decoding” model would result in only one speech reconstruction value).

      In both conditions (single and multi speaker) a single input feature (the envelope of the attended speech stream) was used. Of course it would be possible to fit the model to use a multivariate encoding model, predicting the brain’s response to the total input of sounds. This would, however, target a slightly different question than ours as we aimed to investigate how much of the attended speech is tracked.

      Regarding your suggestion of a comparison to permutations to assess noise levels we would like to point out that we chose the same methodological approach as in our previous studies, that we aimed to replicate here. Indeed in these original studies no permuted versions (with exception of the mediation analysis where comparing a model with an additional input predictor to a single predictor model would not result in a fair comparison) have been used. We conducted the mTRF approach considering the guidelines of Crosse et al. (2016) to the best of our knowledge and in accordance with similar studies in this field.

      Crosse, M. J., Di Liberto, G. M., Bednar, A., & Lalor, E. C. (2016). The multivariate temporal response function (mTRF) toolbox: a MATLAB toolbox for relating neural signals to continuous stimuli. Frontiers in human neuroscience, 10, 604.

      (5) TRF analysis at the word level: from my experience, 2-second segments are insufficient for deriving meaningful TRFs (see for example the recent work by Mesik & Wojtczak). Can you please give further details about how the analysis of the response to semantic violations was conducted? What was the model trained on (the full speech or just the 2-second long segments?) Is there a particular advantage to TRFs here, relative - say - to ERPs (one would expect a relatively nice N400 response, not)? In general, it would be nice to see the TRF results on their own (and not just the modulation effects).

      We fully agree with the reviewers statement that 2-second segments would have been too short to derive meaningful TRFs. To investigate the effect of semantic violations, we used the same TRFs trained on the whole dataset (with 4-fold cross validation). The resulting true as well as the predicted data was segmented into single word epochs of 2 seconds. We selected semantic violations as well as their lexically identical controls and correlated true with predicted responses for every word. Thus, we conducted the same analysis as for the overall encoding effect, focusing on only part of the data. We have reformulated the Methods section accordingly to clear up this misunderstanding. Since the TRFs are identical to the standard TRFs from the overall neural speech tracking, they are not informative to the semantic violation effect. However, since the mTRF approach is the key method throughout the manuscript (and our main focus is not on the investigations of brain responses to semantic violations) we have favoured this approach over the classical ERF analysis. 

      (6) Another related point that I did not quite understand - is the dependent measure used for the regression model "neural speech envelope tracking" the r-value derived just from the 2sec-long epochs? Or from the entire speech stimulus? The text mentions the "effect of neural speech tracking" - but it's not clear if this refers to the single-speaker vs. twospeaker conditions or to the prediction manipulation. Or is it different in the different analyses? Please spell out exactly what metric was used in each analysis.

      As suggested we now provide a clear definition of each dependent metric for each analysis.

      “Neural speech tracking” refers to the correlation coefficients between predicted and true brain responses from the aforementioned encoding model, trained and tested on the whole audio material within condition (single vs. multi-speaker).

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewing Editor Comments:

      The reviewers have provided a number of recommendations to improve the manuscript, particularly requesting that more data be reported, with an emphasis on the measurements themselves (eye movements and TRFs) rather than just the numerical outputs of mathematical models.

      We appreciate all the reviewers' and editor’s comments and effort to improve our manuscript. In the revised version we provide interim findings and missing data, updated figures that include an intuitive illustration of the metrics (such as TRFs), and a thoroughly revised discussion section where we focus on the relationship between our observed quantities and theoretical entities. We now offer operationalized definitions of the relevant concepts (“prediction tendency”, “active ocular sensing” and “selective attention”) and suggest how these entities might be related in the context of speech processing, based on the current findings. We are confident that this revision has improved the quality of our paper a lot and we are grateful for all the feedback and suggestions. 

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Participants had to fixate throughout the tasks. How did the authors deal with large eye movements that violated the instructed fixation?

      As described in the Methods section: “Participants were instructed to look at a black fixation cross at the center of a grey screen.” This instruction was not intended to enforce strict fixation but rather to provide a general reference point, encouraging participants to keep their gaze on the grey screen and avoid freely scanning the room or closing their eyes. Unlike trial-based designs, where strict fixation is feasible due to shorter trial durations, this approach did not impose rigid fixation requirements. Consequently, the threshold for "instruction violation" was inherently more flexible, and no additional preprocessing was applied to the gaze vectors.

      Fixating for such an extended period of time (1.5 hours?) is hard. Did fixation behavior change over time? Could (fixation) fatigue affect the correlations between eye movements and speech tracking? For example, fatigued participants had to correct their fixation more often and this drives, in part, the negative correlation with comprehension?

      Yes, participants spent approximately 2 hours in the MEG, including preparation time (~30 minutes). However, participants were given opportunities to rest their eyes between different parts and blocks of the experiment (e.g., resting state, passive listening, and audiobook blocks), which should help mitigate fatigue to some extent.

      That said, we agree that it is an intriguing idea that fatigue could drive the ocular speech tracking effect, with participants potentially needing to correct their gaze more as the experiment progresses. However, our analysis suggests this is unlikely for several reasons:

      (1) Cross-validation in encoding models: Ocular speech tracking effects were calculated using a 4-fold cross-validation approach (this detail has now been added to the Methods section; please see our response to public review #3). This approach reduces the influence of potential increases in gaze corrections over time, as the models are trained and validated on independent data splits.  Moreover, if there were substantial differences in underlying response magnitudes between folds - for instance, between the first and fourth fold - this would likely compromise the TRF's ability to produce valid response functions for predicting the left-out data. Such a scenario would not result in significant tracking, further supporting the robustness of the observed effects.

      (2) TRF time-course stability: If fatigue were driving increased gaze corrections, we would expect this to be reflected in a general offset (capturing the mean difference between folds) in the TRF time-courses shown in Figure 4 (right panel). However, no such trend / offset is evident.

      (3) Comparison of eye movement data: To directly investigate this possibility, we compared the amount of total eye movements between the first and last blocks for both the single and multi-speaker conditions. Total movement was calculated by first calculating the differences in pixel values between consecutive eye positions on both the x- and y-axes. The Euclidean distance was then computed for each difference, providing a measure of movement between successive time points. Summing these distances yielded the total movement for each block. Statistical analysis was performed separately for the single speaker (ASS) and multi-speaker (AMS) conditions. For each condition, paired comparisons were made between the first and last blocks (we resorted to non-parametric tests, if assumptions of normality were violated):

      For the single speaker condition (ASS), the normality assumption was not satisfied (p≤0.05p, Kolmogorov-Smirnov test). Consequently, a Wilcoxon signedrank test was conducted, which revealed no significant difference in total movements between the first and last blocks (z=−1.330, p=0.184). For the multi-speaker condition (AMS), the data met the normality assumption (p>0.05), allowing the use of a paired t-test. The results showed no significant difference in total movements between the first and last blocks (t=−0.184, p=0.855).

      The results are visualized in a bar plot (see below), where individual data points are displayed alongside the mean and standard error for each block. Statistical annotations indicate that neither condition demonstrated significant differences between the blocks. These findings suggest that total eye movements remained stable across the experimental conditions, regardless of whether participants were exposed to a single or multiple speakers.

      Author response image 1.

      (4) Behavioral responses: Participants’ behavioral responses did not indicate any decrease in comprehensibility for later blocks compared to earlier ones. Specifically, a comparison of comprehension scores between the first and last blocks revealed no significant difference in either the single-speaker condition (ASS; Wilcoxon signed-rank test Z=−0.5911, p=0.5545) or the multi-speaker condition (AMS; Wilcoxon signed-rank test: Z=0.5018, p=0.6158). These findings suggest that participants maintained consistent levels of comprehension throughout the experiment, regardless of the condition or block order. The results are visualized in a bar plot (see below), where individual data points are displayed alongside the mean and standard error for each block. Statistical annotations indicate that neither condition demonstrated significant differences between the blocks.

      Author response image 2.

      Together, these factors suggest that fatigue is unlikely to be a significant driver of the ocular speech tracking effects observed in this study.

      (2) The authors should provide descriptive statistics of fixation behavior /fixational eye movements. What was the frequency and mean direction of microsaccades, do they follow the main sequence, etc., quantify drift and tremor?

      Thank you for their suggestion regarding descriptive statistics. To address this, we computed the rates of microsaccades (which were extracted using the microsaccade detection algorithm as proposed in Liu, B., Nobre, A. C. & van Ede, F. Functional but not obligatory link between microsaccades and neural modulation by covert spatial attention. Nat. Commun. 13, 3503 (2022)) and fixations as these metrics are directly relevant to our study and the requests above.

      Microsaccade Rates:

      - Single speaker Condition: Mean = 2.306 Hz, SD = 0.363 Hz. ○ Multi speaker: Mean = 2.268 Hz, SD = 0.355 Hz.

      Fixation Rates:

      - Single speaker Condition: Mean = 2.858 Hz, SD = 1.617 Hz. ○ Multi speaker Condition: Mean = 2.897 Hz, SD = 1.542 Hz.

      These values fall within the expected ranges reported in the literature (fixation rates: 2– 4 Hz, microsaccade rates: ~0.5–2.5 Hz) and serve as a sanity check, confirming the plausibility of our eye-tracking data. Regarding the reviewer’s request for additional metrics (e.g., microsaccade direction, main sequence analysis, drift, and tremor), extracting these features would require advanced algorithms and analyses not supported by our current preprocessing pipeline or dataset. We hope that the provided metrics, which were the main focus of this study, serve as a sufficient sanity check and highlight the robustness of our data.

      Related to this, I am wondering whether microsaccades are the feature that drives speech tracking.

      This is an important and pressing question that we aim to address in future publications. Currently, our understanding - and the reason microsaccades and blinks are not analysed in this manuscript - is limited by methodological constraints. Specifically, microsaccades are binary response vectors, which are not compatible with TRF analyses. Addressing this would require adapting future models to handle timecontinuous binary response data or exploring alternative approaches, such as regression-based ERFs (for example as in Heilbron et al. 2022). As the primary goal of this manuscript was to replicate the findings of Gehmacher et al. (2024) using similar methods and to integrate these findings into an initial unified framework, we did not investigate additional eye movement features here. However, we agree that microsaccades (and also blinks, see below) likely contribute, at least in part, to the observed ocular speech tracking effects, and we now suggest this in the Discussion:  

      “Relatedly, it remains an open question whether microsaccades are a key feature driving ocular speech tracking. However, our current study does not analyze microsaccades due to methodological constraints: microsaccades are binary response vectors, which are incompatible with TRF analyses used here. Addressing this would require adapting models to handle time-continuous binary response data or potentially exploring alternative approaches, such as regression-based ERFs (e.g., as in Heilbron et al., 2022). While these limitations preclude microsaccade analysis in the current study, we hypothesize that they could enhance temporal precision and selectively amplify relevant sensory input, supporting auditory perception. Future studies should explore this possibility to uncover the specific contributions of microsaccades to speech tracking.”

      (3) Can the authors make sure that interpolated blinks did not drive any of the effects? Can interpolated blink trials be excluded?

      Using continuous audiobooks as stimuli meant that we could not exclude blink periods from the analysis without introducing substantial continuation artifacts in the TRF analysis. Importantly, the concept of covert motor routines and active sensing suggests that participants engage more strongly in motor routines - including ocular behaviors such as microsaccades and blinks - during tasks like speech tracking. These motor routines are inherently tied to individual gaze patterns, making microsaccades and blinks correlated with other ocular behaviors. This complicates efforts to disentangle their individual contributions to the observed ocular speech tracking effects.

      Engagement in these motor routines, as posited by active sensing, would naturally load onto various viewing behaviors, further intertwining their roles.

      Even if we were to examine correlations, such as the amount of blinks with the ocular speech tracking effect, it is unlikely to provide a clearer understanding due to these inherent overlaps. The methodological and conceptual challenge lies in distinguishing these features from one another and understanding their respective roles in driving the observed effects.

      However, the aim of this manuscript was not to dissect the ocular speech tracking effect in greater detail, but rather to relate it - based on similar analytical choices as in Gehmacher et al - to prediction tendencies, attention, and neural speech tracking. While it will be crucial in future work to differentiate these patterns and their connections to diverse cognitive processes, it is beyond the scope of this study to address all these questions comprehensively.

      We acknowledge that eye movements, including microsaccades and blinks (however, see challenges for this in response 2), remain underexplored in many experimental paradigms. Their interplay with cognitive processes - such as attention, prediction, and sensory integration - will undoubtedly be an important focus for future studies. 

      (4) Could the authors provide more details on how time shuffling was done for the eyemovement predictor, and include a circularly shifted version (or a version that does not destroy temporal contiguity) in their model comparisons? Some types of shuffling can result in unrealistic time series, which would end up in an unfair comparison with the model that has the real eye movement traces as predictors.

      We thank the reviewer for their insightful question regarding the time-shuffling procedure for the eye-movement predictor and for suggesting the inclusion of a circularly shifted version in our model comparisons. Below, we provide further details about our approach and the rationale behind it:

      (1) Random Shuffling: In our analysis, the eye-movement predictor was randomly shuffled over time, meaning that individual samples were randomly replaced. This method completely disrupts the temporal structure of the signal, providing a null model that directly tests whether the temporal mediation observed is due to the specific temporal relationship between ocular movements and envelope tracking.

      (2) Circular Shifting: While circular shifting maintains temporal contiguity, it introduces certain challenges in the context of TRF analysis. Specifically:

      - Adaptation to Shifts: The TRF model could adapt to the introduced shift, potentially reducing the validity of the null comparison.

      - Similarity due to Repetition: The broadband envelope exhibits strong repetitive patterns over time, such as rhythms inherent to speech. Circular shifting can therefore produce predictors that are very similar to the original signal. As a result, this similarity may lead to null distributions that do not adequately disrupt the temporal mediation we aim to test, making it less robust as a control.

      (3) Rationale for Random Shuffling: The primary goal of our mediation analysis is to determine whether there is a temporal mediation of envelope tracking by ocular movements. By deliberately destroying the temporal structure through random shuffling, we ensure that the null model tests for the specific temporal relationship that is central to our hypothesis. Circularly shifted predictors, on the other hand, may partially preserve temporal dependencies, making them less suitable for this purpose.

      In summary, while circular shifting is a valuable approach in other contexts, it is less appropriate for the specific goals of this study. We hope this explanation clarifies our methodological choices and demonstrates their alignment with the aims of our analysis.

      (5) Replication: I want to point out that it is great that the previous findings were in principle replicated. However, I would like to suggest a more nuanced evaluation of the replication:

      a) Instead of a (direct) replication, the present study should be called a 'conceptual replication', since modifications in design and procedure were made.

      Thank you very much for this suggestion! We now use the term ‘conceptual replication’ throughout the manuscript.

      b) Not all the findings from the Gehmacher et al., 2024 study were replicated to a full extent:

      Did the authors find indications of a vertical vs. horizontal tracking difference in the Gehmacher 2024 data? Could they check this in the Gehmacher 2024 data?

      The findings for horizontal and vertical gaze tracking in Gehmacher et al. (2024) are detailed in the supplementary material of that publication. Both single-speaker and multi-speaker target conditions showed significant speech tracking effects in both horizontal and vertical directions. However, there was a slightly stronger tracking effect for the single-speaker condition in the vertical direction. Due to the highly predictable structure of words in Gehmacher et al. effects here were probably overall boosted as compared to continuous audiobook listening, likely leading to the differentiation of horizontal and vertical gaze. See figures in Gehmacher et al. supplementary file for reference.

      c) Another difference between their previous and this study is the non-existent tracking of the multi-speaker distractor in this study. The authors should point this out clearly in the discussion and potentially provide an explanation.

      Thank you for highlighting this point! We now address this in the discussion:

      “Importantly, in contrast to Gehmacher et al. (2024), we did not observe ocular tracking of the multi-speaker distractor in this study. This difference is likely attributable to the simplistic single-trial, 5-word task structure in Gehmacher et al., which resulted in high temporal overlap between the target and distractor speech streams and likely drove the significant distractor-tracking effects observed in that study. The absence of such an effect during continuous listening in our study suggests that ocular tracking is indeed more specific to selective attention.”

      Minor:

      (1) I was a little surprised to not see an indication of eyes/eye movements in Figure 6. The intention of the authors might have been to create a general schematic illustration, but I find this a bit misleading. This paper provides nice evidence for a specific ocular effect in speech tracking. There is, to my knowledge, no indication that speech would be influenced by different kinds of active sensing (if there are, please include them in the discussion). Given that the visuomotor system is quite dominant in humans, it might actually be the case that the speech tracking the authors describe is specifically ocular.

      Taking into account all the reviewers' remarks on the findings and interpretations, we have updated this figure (now Fig. 7) in the manuscript to make it more specific and aligned with the revised discussion section. Throughout the manuscript, we now explicitly refer to active ocular sensing in relation to speech processing and have avoided the broader term 'active sensing' in this context. We hope these revisions address the concerns raised.

      (2) I find the part in the discussion (page 2, last paragraph) on cognitive processes hard to follow. I don't agree that 'cognitive processes' are easily separable from any of the measured responses (eye and brain). Referring to the example they provide, there is evidence that eye movements are correlated with brain activity that is correlated with memory performance. How, and more importantly, why would one separate those?

      Thank you for raising this important point. We have carefully considered your comments, particularly regarding the interplay between cognitive processes and measured responses (eye and brain), as well as the challenge of conceptually separating them. Additionally, we have incorporated Reviewer #2's query (13) into a unified and complementary reasoning. In response, we have rewritten the relevant paragraph in the discussion to provide a clearer and more detailed explanation of how ocular and neural responses contribute to speech processing in an interdependent manner. We hope this revision addresses your concerns and offers a more precise and coherent discussion on this topic:

      “Despite the finding that eye movements mediate neural speech tracking, the behavioural relevance for semantic comprehension appears to differ between ocular and neural speech tracking. Specifically, we found a negative association between ocular speech tracking and comprehension, indicating that participants with lower comprehension performance exhibited increased ocular speech tracking. Interestingly, no significant relationship was observed between neural tracking and comprehension.

      In this context, the negative association between ocular tracking and comprehension might reflect individual differences in how participants allocate cognitive resources. Participants with lower comprehension may rely more heavily on attentional mechanisms to process acoustic features, as evidenced by increased ocular tracking. This reliance could represent a compensatory strategy when higher-order processes, such as semantic integration or memory retrieval, are less effective. Importantly, our comprehension questions (see Experimental Procedure) targeted a broad range of processes, including intelligibility and memory, suggesting that this relationship reflects a trade-off in resource allocation between low-level acoustic focus and integrative cognitive tasks.

      Rather than separating eye and brain responses conceptually, our analysis highlights their complementary contributions. Eye movements may enhance neural processing by increasing sensitivity to acoustic properties of speech, while neural activity builds on this foundation to integrate information and support comprehension. Together, these systems form an interdependent mechanism, with eye and brain responses working in tandem to facilitate different aspects of speech processing.

      This interpretation is consistent with the absence of a difference in ocular tracking for semantic violations (e.g., words with high surprisal versus lexically matched controls), reinforcing the view that ocular tracking primarily reflects attentional engagement with acoustic features rather than direct involvement in semantic processing. This aligns with previous findings that attention modulates auditory responses to acoustic features (e.g., Forte et al., 2017), further supporting the idea that ocular tracking reflects mechanisms of selective attention rather than representations of linguistic content.

      Future research should investigate how these systems interact and explore how ocular tracking mediates neural responses to linguistic features, such as lexical or semantic processing, to better understand their joint contributions to comprehension.”.  

      (3) Attention vs. predictive coding. I think the authors end up with an elegant description of the observed effects, "as an "active sensing" mechanism that implements the attentional optimization of sensory precision." However, I feel the paragraph starts with the ill-posed question "whether ocular speech tracking is modulated not by predictive, but other (for example attentional) processes". If ocular tracking is the implementation of a process (optimization of sensory precision, aka attention), how could it be at the same time modulated by that process? In my opinion, adding the notion that there is a modulation by a vague cognitive concept like attention on top of what the paper shows does not improve our understanding of how speech tracking in humans works.

      Thank you for raising this point. We agree that it is critical to clarify the relationship between ocular speech tracking, attention, and predictive processes, and we appreciate the opportunity to refine this discussion.  

      To avoid the potential confusion that active ocular sensing represents on the one hand an implementation of selective attention on the other it seems to be modulated by it, we now use  the formulation “ocular speech tracking reflects attentional mechanisms rather than predictive processes.”

      To address your concern that the conceptualization of attention seems rather vague, we have revised the whole paragraph in order to redefine the theoretical entities in question (including selective attention) and to provide a clearer and more precise picture (see also our revised version of Fig. 6, now Fig. 7). We now focus on highlighting the distinct yet interdependent roles of selective attention and individual prediction tendencies for speech tracking.:

      “With this speculative framework we attempt to describe and relate three important phenomena with respect to their relevance for speech processing: 1) “Anticipatory predictions” that are created in absence of attentional demands and contain probabilistic information about stimulus features (here, inferred from frequency-specific pre-activations during passive listening to sound sequences). 2) “Selective attention” that allocates resources towards relevant (whilst suppressing distracting) information (which was manipulated by the presence or absence of a distractor speaker). And finally 3) “active ocular sensing”, which refers to gaze behavior that is temporally aligned to attended (but not unattended) acoustic speech input (inferred from the discovered phenomenon of ocular speech tracking). We propose that auditory inflow is, at a basic level, temporally modulated via active ocular sensing, which “opens the gates” in the sensory periphery at relevant timepoints. How exactly this mechanism is guided (for example where the information about crucial timepoints comes from, if not from prediction, and whether it requires habituation to a speechstream etc.) is yet unclear. Unlike predictive tendencies, active ocular sensing appears to reflect selective attention, manifesting as a mechanism that optimizes sensory precision. Individual differences with respect to anticipatory predictions on the other hand, seem to be independent from the other two entities, but nevertheless relevant for speech processing. We therefore support the notion that representational content is interpreted based on prior probabilistic assumptions. If we consider the idea that “a percept” of an (auditory) object is actually temporally and spatially distributed (across representational spacetime - see Fig. 7), the content of information depends on where and when it is probed (see for example Dennett, 1991 for similar ideas on consciousness). Having to select from multiple interpretations across space and time requires a careful balance between the weighting of internal models and the allocation of resources based on current goals. We suggest that in the case of speech processing, this challenge results in an independent adaptation of feature-based precision-weighting by predictions on the one hand and temporal precision-weighting by selective attention on the other.”

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      My main recommendation is outlined in the Weaknesses above: the overarching rationale for many analysis choices should be made explicit, and intermediate results should be shown where appropriate, so the reader can follow what is being quantified and what the results truly mean. Specifically, I recommend to pay attention to the following (in no particular order):

      (1) Define 'neural speech tracking' early on. (e.g.: 'The amount of information in the MEG signal that can multivariately be explained by the speech amplitude envelope.' (is that correct?))

      Thank you for pointing out that this important definition is missing. It is now defined at the first mention in the Introduction as follows: “Here (and in the following) “neural speech tracking” refers to a correlation coefficient between actual brain responses and responses predicted from an encoding model based solely on the speech envelope”.

      (2) Same for 'ocular speech tracking'. Here even reading the Methods does not make it unambiguous how this term is used.

      It is now defined at the first mention in the Introduction as follows: “Ocular speech tracking” (similarly to “neural speech tracking” refers to the correlation coefficient between actual eye movements and movements predicted from an encoding model based on the speech envelope”.

      In addition also define both (neural and ocular speech tracking) metrics in the Methods Section.

      (3) Related to this: for ocular speech tracking, are simply the horizontal and vertical eye traces compared to the speech envelope? If so, this appears somewhat strange: why should the eyes move more rightward/upward with a larger envelope? And the direction here depends on the (arbitrary) sign of right = positive, etc. (It would make more sense to quantify 'amount of movement' in some way, but if this is done, I missed it in Methods.)

      Thank you for your insightful comments. You are correct that the horizontal and vertical traces were used for ocular speech tracking, and no additional details were included in the Methods. While we agree that the observed rightward/upward movement may seem unusual, this pattern is consistent with previous findings, including those reported in Gehmacher et al. (2024). In that study, we discussed how ocular speech tracking could reflect a broader engagement of the motor system during speech perception. For example, we observed a general right-lateralized gaze bias when participants attended to auditory speech, which we hypothesized might resemble eye movements during text reading, with a similar temporal alignment (~200 ms). We also speculated that this pattern might differ in cultures that read text from right to left.

      We appreciate your suggestion to explore alternative methods for quantifying gaze patterns, such as the "amount of movement" or microsaccades. While these approaches hold promise for future studies, our primary aim here was to replicate previous findings using the same signal and analysis methods to establish a basis for further exploration.  

      (4) In the Introduction, specifically blink-related ocular activity is mentioned as being related to speech tracking (for which a reference is, incidentally, missing), while here, any blink-related activity is excluded from the analysis. This should be motivated, as it appears in direct contradiction.

      Thank you for pointing this out. The mention of blink-related ocular activity in the Introduction refers to findings by Jin et al. (2018), where such activity was shown to align with higher-order syntactic structures in artificial speech. We have now included the appropriate reference for clarity.

      While Jin et al. focused on blink-related activity, in the present study, we focused on gaze patterns to investigate ocular speech tracking, replicating findings from

      Gehmacher et al. (2024). This approach was motivated by our goal to validate previous results using the same methodology. Importantly to this point, the exclusion of blinks in our analysis was due to methodological constraints of TRF analysis, which requires a continuous response signal; blinks, being discrete and artifact-prone, are incompatible with this approach.

      To address your concern, we revised the Introduction to clarify this distinction and provide explicit motivation for focusing on gaze patterns. It now reads:

      “Along these lines, It has been shown that covert, mostly blink related eye activity aligns with higher-order syntactic structures of temporally predictable, artificial speech (i.e. monosyllabic words; Jin et al, 2018). In support of ideas that the motor system is actively engaged in speech perception (Galantucci et al., 2006; Liberman & Mattingly, 1985), the authors suggest a global entrainment across sensory and (oculo)motor areas which implements temporal attention. 

      In another recent study from our lab (Gehmacher et al., 2024), we showed that eye movements continuously track intensity fluctuations of attended natural speech, a phenomenon we termed ocular speech tracking. In the present study, we focused on gaze patterns rather than blink-related activity, both to replicate findings from

      Gehmacher et al. (2024) and because blink activity is unsuitable for TRF analysis due to its discrete and artifact-prone nature. Hence, “Ocular speech tracking” (similarly to “neural speech tracking” refers to the correlation coefficient between actual eye movements and movements predicted from an encoding model based on the speech envelope.”

      Jin, P., Zou, J., Zhou, T., & Ding, N. (2018). Eye activity tracks task-relevant structures during speech and auditory sequence perception. Nature communications, 9(1), 5374.

      (5) The rationale for the mediation analysis is questionable. Let speech envelope = A, brain activity = B, eye movements = C. The authors wish to claim that A -> C -> B. But it is equally possible that A -> B -> C. They reflect on this somewhat in Discussion, but throughout the rest of the paper, the mediation analysis is presented as specifically testing whether A -> B is mediated by C, which is potentially misleading.

      Indeed we share your concern regarding the directionality of the relationships in the mediation analysis. Our choice of ocular movements as a mediator was motivated by the fact that the relationship between acoustic speech and neural activity is well established, as well as previous results indicating that oculomotor activity contributes to cognitive effects in auditory attention (Popov et al., 2022). 

      Indeed, here we treat both interpretations (“ocular movements contribute to neural speech tracking” versus “neural activity contributes to ocular speech tracking”) as equal.  We now emphasise this point in our discussion quite thoroughly:

      “It is important to note that our current findings do not allow for inference on directionality. Our choice of ocular movements as a mediator was motivated by the fact that the relationship between acoustic speech and neural activity is well established, as well as previous results indicating that oculomotor activity contributes to cognitive effects in auditory attention (Popov et al., 2022). However, an alternative model may suggest that neural activity mediates the effect of ocular speech tracking. Hence, it is possible that ocular mediation of speech tracking may reflect a) active (ocular) sensing for information driven by (top-down) selective attention or b) improved neural representations as a consequence of temporally aligned increase of sensory gain or c) (not unlikely) both. In fact, when rejecting the notion of a single bottom-up flow of information and replacing it with a model of distributed parallel and dynamic processing, it seems only reasonable to assume that the direction of communication (between our eyes and our brain) will depend on where (within the brain) as well as when we look at the effect. Thus, the regions and time-windows reported here should be taken as an illustration of oculo-neural communication during speech processing rather than an attempt to "explain" neural speech processing by ocular movements.”

      (6) The mediation analysis can be improved by a proper quantification of the effect (sizes or variance explained). E.g. how much % of B is explained by A total, and how much of that can in turn be explained by C being involved? For drawing directional conclusions perhaps Granger causality could be used.

      In Figure 4 (now Figure 5) of our manuscript we use standardized betas (which correspond to effect sizes) to illustrate the mediation effect. With the current mTRF approach it is however not possible (or insightful) to compare the variance explained. It is reasonable to assume that variance in neural activity will be explained better when including oculomotor behavior as a second predictor along with acoustic simulation. However this increase gives no indication to what extent this oculomotor behavior was task relevant or irrelevant (since all kinds of “arbitrary” movements will be captured with brain activity and therefore lead to an increase in variance explained). For this reason we chose to pursue the widely accepted framework of mediation (Baron & Kenny, 1986). This (correlational) approach is indeed limited in its interpretations (see prev. response), however the goal of the current study was to replicate and illustrate the triad relationship of acoustic speech input, neural activity and ocular movements with no particular hypotheses on directionality.

      (7) Both prediction tendency and neural speech tracking depend on MEG data, and thus on MEG signal-to-noise ratio (SNR). It is possible some participants may have higher SNR recordings in both tasks, which may result in both higher (estimated) prediction tendency and higher (estimated) speech tracking. This would result in a positive correlation, as the authors observe. This trivial explanation should be ruled out, by quantifying the relative SNR and testing for the absence of a mediation here.

      We agree that for both approaches (MVPA and mTRF models) individual MEG SNR plays an important role. This concern has been raised previously and addressed in our previous manuscript (Schubert et al., 2023). First, it should be noted that our prediction tendency value is the result of a condition contrast (rather than simple decoding accuracy) which compensates for the influence of subject specific signal-to-noise ratio (as no vacuous difference in SNR is to be expected between conditions). Second, in our previous study we also used frequency decoding accuracy as a control variable to correlate with speech tracking variables of interest and found no significant effect.

      (8) Much of the analysis pipeline features temporal response functions (TRFs). These should be shown in a time-resolved manner as a key intermediate step.

      We now included the Neural Speech tracking TRFs into the Figure (now Figure 3).

      (9) Figure 2 shows much-condensed results from different steps in the pipeline. If I understand correctly, 2A shows raw TRF weights (averaged over some time window?), while 2B-F shows standardized mean posterior regressor weights after Bayesian stats? It would be very helpful to make much more explicit what is being shown here, in addition to showing the related TRFs.

      Thank you for pointing this out! The figure description so far has been indeed not very insightful on this issue. We now adapted the caption and hope this clarifies the confusion: “ Neural speech tracking is related to prediction tendency and word surprisal, independent of selective attention. A) Envelope (x) - response (y) relationships are estimated using deconvolution (Boosting). The TRF (filter kernel, h) models how the brain processes the envelope over time. This filter is used to predict neural responses via convolution. Predicted responses are correlated with  actual neural activity to evaluate model fit and the TRF's ability to capture response dynamics. Correlation coefficients from these models are then used as dependent variables in Bayesian regression models. (Panel adapted from Gehmacher et al., 2024b). B) Temporal response functions (TRFs) depict the time-resolved neural tracking of the speech envelope for the single speaker and multi speaker target condition, shown here as absolute values averaged across channels. Solid lines represent the group average. Shaded areas represent 95% Confidence Intervals. C–H) The beta weights shown in the sensor plots are derived from Bayesian regression models in A). For Panel C, this statistical model is based on correlation coefficients computed from the TRF models (further details can be found in the Methods Section). C) In a single speaker condition, neural tracking of the speech envelope was significant for widespread areas, most pronounced over auditory processing regions. D) The condition effect indicates a decrease in neural speech tracking with increasing noise (1 distractor). E) Stronger prediction tendency was associated with increased neural speech tracking over left frontal areas. F) However, there was no interaction between prediction tendency and conditions of selective attention. G) Increased neural tracking of semantic violations was observed over left temporal areas. H) There was no interaction between word surprisal and speaker condition, suggesting a representation of surprising words independent of background noise. Marked sensors indicate ‘significant’ clusters, defined as at least two neighboring channels showing a significant result. N = 29.”

      Gehmacher, Q., Schubert, J., Kaltenmaier, A., Weisz, N., & Press, C. (2024b). The "Ocular Response Function" for encoding and decoding oculomotor related neural activity. bioRxiv, 2024-11.

      (10) Bayesian hypothesis testing is not done consistently. Some parts test for inclusion of 0 in 94% HDI, while some parts adopt a ROPE approach. The same approach should be taken throughout. Additionally, Bayes factors would be very helpful (I appreciate these depend on the choice of priors, but the default Bambi priors should be fine).

      Our primary aim in this study was to replicate two recent findings: (1) the relationship between individual prediction tendencies and neural speech tracking, and (2) the tracking of the speech envelope by eye movements. To maintain methodological consistency with the original studies, we did not apply a ROPE approach when analyzing these replication effects. Instead, we followed the same procedures as the original work, focusing on the inclusion of 0 in the HDI for the neural effects and using the same methods for the ocular effects. Additionally, we were not specifically interested in potential null effects in these replication analyses, as our primary goal was to test whether we could reproduce the previously reported findings.

      For the mediation analysis, however, we chose to extend the original approach by not only performing the analysis in a time-resolved manner but also applying a ROPE approach. This decision was motivated by our interest in gaining more comprehensive insights — beyond the replication goals — by also testing for potential null effects, which can provide valuable information about the presence or absence of mediation effects.

      We appreciate your thoughtful feedback and hope this clarifies our rationale for the differing approaches in our Bayesian hypothesis testing. 

      Regarding Bayes Factors, 

      We understand that some researchers find Bayes Factors appealing, as they offer a seemingly simple and straightforward way to evaluate the evidence in favor of/ or against H0 in relation to H1 (e.g. BF10 > 102 =  Decisive; according to the Jeffreys Scale). However, in practice Bayes Factors are often misunderstood e.g. by interpreting Bayes Factor as posterior odds or not acknowledging the notion of relative evidence in the Bayes Factor (see Wong et al. 2022). Instead of using Bayes Factors, we prefer to rely on estimating and reporting the posterior distribution of parameters given the data, prior and model assumptions (in form of the 94% HDI). This allows for a continuous evaluation of evidence for a given hypothesis that is in our eyes easier to interpret as a Bayes Factor.

      Jeffreys, Harold (1998) [1961]. The Theory of Probability (3rd ed.). Oxford, England. p. 432. ISBN 9780191589676.

      Wong, T. K., Kiers, H., & Tendeiro, J. (2022). On the Potential Mismatch Between the Function of the Bayes Factor and Researchers’ Expectations. Collabra: Psychology, 8(1), 36357. https://doi.org/10.1525/collabra.36357

      (11) It would be helpful if Results could be appreciated without a detailed read of Methods. I would recommend a recap of each key methodological step before introducing the relevant Result. (This may also help in making the rationale explicit.)

      In addition to the short recaps of methods that were already present, and information on quantifications of neural and ocular tracking and bayes statistics (see responses 1, 2, 9), we now added the following parts below to the results sections. Please refer to them in the context of the manuscript where they should now complement a key recap of methodological steps necessary to readily understand each analysis and rational that led to the results:

      Individual prediction tendency is related to neural speech tracking:

      “Thus, this measure is a single value per subject, which comprises a) differences between two contextual probabilities (i.e. ordered vs. random) in b) feature-specific tone representations c) in advance of their observation (summed over a time-window of -0.3 - 0 s). Importantly, this prediction tendency was assessed in an independent entropy modulation paradigm (see Fig. 1). On a group level we found an increased tendency to pre-activate a stimulus of high probability (i.e. forward transition) in an ordered context compared to a random context (see Fig, 2A). This effect replicates results from our previous work (Schubert et al., 2023, 2024). Using the summed difference between entropy levels (ordered - random) across pre-stimulus time, one value was extracted per subject (Fig. 2B). This value was used as a proxy for “individual prediction tendency” and correlated with encoding of clear speech across different MEG sensors. [...]

      Neural speech tracking, quantified as the correlation coefficients between predicted and observed MEG responses to the speech envelope, was used as the dependent variable in Bayesian regression models. These models included condition (single vs. multi-speaker) as a fixed effect, with either prediction tendency or word surprisal as an additional predictor, and random effects for participants.”

      Eye movements track acoustic speech in selective attention:

      “For this, we separately predicted horizontal and vertical eye movements from the acoustic speech envelope using temporal response functions (TRFs). The resulting model fit (i.e. correlation between true and predicted eye movements) is commonly referred to as “speech tracking”. Bayesian regression models were applied to evaluate tracking effects under different conditions of selective attention (single speaker, attended multi-speaker, unattended multi-speaker). Furthermore, we assessed whether individual prediction tendency or semantic word surprisal influenced ocular speech tracking.”

      Neural speech tracking is mediated by eye movements:

      “This model evaluates to what extent gaze behaviour functions as a mediator between acoustic speech input and brain activity.”

      Neural and ocular speech tracking are differently related to comprehension: “Bayesian regression models were used to investigate relationships between neural/ocular speech tracking and comprehension or difficulty. Ocular speech tracking was analyzed separately for horizontal and vertical eye movements.”

      (12) The research questions in the Introduction should be sharpened up, to make explicit when a question concerns a theoretical entity, and when it concerns something concretely measured/measurable.

      We sharpened them up:

      “Taking into account the aforementioned study by Schubert and colleagues (2023), the two recently uncovered predictors of neural tracking (individual prediction tendency and ocular tracking) raise several empirical questions regarding the relationship between predictive processes, selective attention, and active ocular sensing in speech processing:

      (1) Are predictive processes related to active ocular sensing in the same way they are to neural speech tracking? Specifically, do individuals with a stronger tendency to anticipate predictable auditory features, as quantified through prestimulus neural representations in an independent tone paradigm, show increased or even decreased ocular speech tracking, measured as the correlation between predicted and actual eye movements? Or is there no relationship at all?

      (2) To what extent does selective attention influence the relationship between prediction tendency, neural speech tracking, and ocular speech tracking? For example, does the effect of prediction tendency or ocular speech tracking on neural tracking differ between a single-speaker and multi-speaker listening condition?

      (3) Are individual prediction tendency and ocular speech tracking related to behavioral outcomes, such as comprehension and perceived task difficulty? Speech comprehension is assessed through accuracy on comprehension questions, and task difficulty is measured through subjective ratings.

      Although predictive processes, selective attention, and active sensing have been shown to contribute to successful listening, their potential interactions and specific roles in naturalistic speech perception remain unclear. Addressing these questions will help disentangle their contributions and establish an integrated framework for understanding how neural and ocular speech tracking support speech processing.”

      (13) The negative relationship between story comprehension and ocular speech tracking appears to go against the authors' preferred interpretation, but the reflection on this in the Discussion is very brief and somewhat vague.

      Thank you for pointing this out. We have taken your comments into careful consideration and also incorporated Reviewer #1's query (Minor point 2) into a unified and complementary reasoning. We have rewritten the relevant paragraph in the discussion to provide a clearer and more detailed explanation. We hope this revision offers a more precise and less vague discussion on this important point.

      “Despite the finding that eye movements mediate neural speech tracking, the behavioural relevance for semantic comprehension appears to differ between ocular and neural speech tracking. Specifically, we found a negative association between ocular speech tracking and comprehension, indicating that participants with lower comprehension performance exhibited increased ocular speech tracking. Interestingly, no significant relationship was observed between neural tracking and comprehension.

      In this context, the negative association between ocular tracking and comprehension might reflect individual differences in how participants allocate cognitive resources. Participants with lower comprehension may rely more heavily on attentional mechanisms to process acoustic features, as evidenced by increased ocular tracking. This reliance could represent a compensatory strategy when higher-order processes, such as semantic integration or memory retrieval, are less effective. Importantly, our comprehension questions (see Experimental Procedure) targeted a broad range of processes, including intelligibility and memory, suggesting that this relationship reflects a trade-off in resource allocation between low-level acoustic focus and integrative cognitive tasks.

      Rather than separating eye and brain responses conceptually, our analysis highlights their complementary contributions. Eye movements may enhance neural processing by increasing sensitivity to acoustic properties of speech, while neural activity builds on this foundation to integrate information and support comprehension. Together, these systems form an interdependent mechanism, with eye and brain responses working in tandem to facilitate different aspects of speech processing.

      This interpretation is consistent with the absence of a difference in ocular tracking for semantic violations (e.g., words with high surprisal versus lexically matched controls), reinforcing the view that ocular tracking primarily reflects attentional engagement with acoustic features rather than direct involvement in semantic processing. This aligns with previous findings that attention modulates auditory responses to acoustic features (e.g., Forte et al., 2017), further supporting the idea that ocular tracking reflects mechanisms of selective attention rather than representations of linguistic content.

      Future research should investigate how these systems interact and explore how ocular tracking mediates neural responses to linguistic features, such as lexical or semantic processing, to better understand their joint contributions to comprehension.”.  

      (14) Page numbers would be helpful.

      We added the page numbers.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Results

      (1) Figure 2 - statistical results are reported in this figure, but they are not fully explained in the text, nor are statistical values provided for any of the analyses (as far as I can tell).

      Also, how were multiple comparisons dealt with (the choice of two neighboring channels seems quite arbitrary)? Perhaps for this reason, the main result - namely the effect of "prediction tendency" and "semantic violations" - is quite sparse and might not survive more a rigorous statistical criterion. I would feel more comfortable with these results if the reporting of the statistical analysis had been more thorough (ideally, including comparison to control models).

      We would like to thank you again for your detailed queries, comments, and questions on our work. We first of all adapted this figure (now Figure 3 in the manuscript, please see responses 8 and 9 to Reviewer #2) to help readers understand the metrics and values within each statistical analysis. In addition, we indeed did not include the detailed statistics in the text! We now added the missing statistic reports calculated as averages over ‘clusters’:

      “Replicating previous findings (Schubert et al., 2023), we found widespread encoding of clear speech (average over cluster: β = 0.035, 94%HDI = [0.024, 0.046]), predominantly over auditory processing regions (Fig. 3C), that was decreased (β = -0.018, 94%HDI = [0.029, -0.006]) in a multi-speaker condition (Fig. 3D). Furthermore, a stronger prediction tendency was associated with increased neural speech tracking (β = 0.014, 94%HDI = [0.004, 0.025]) over left frontal sensors (see Fig. 3E). We found no interaction between prediction tendency and condition (see Fig. 3F).” [...] “In a direct comparison with lexically identical controls, we found an increased neural tracking of semantic violations (β = 0.039, 94%HDI = [0.007, 0.071]) over left temporal areas (see Fig. 3G). Furthermore, we found no interaction between word surprisal and speaker condition (see Fig. 3H).”

      Regarding the "prediction tendency" effect, it is important to note that this finding replicates a result from Schubert et al. (2023). The left frontal location of this effect is also consistent over studies, which convinces us of the robustness of the finding. Furthermore, testing this relationship properly requires a mixed-effects model in order to account for the variability across subjects that is not explained by fixed effects and the repeated measures design. For this reason a random Intercept had to be fitted for each subject (1|subject in the respective model formula). This statistical requirement motivated our decision to use bayesian statistics as (at least to our knowledge) there is no implementation of a cluster-based permutation mixed effects model (yet). In order to provide a more conservative criterion (as bayesian statistics don’t require a multiple comparison correction) we chose to impose in addition the requirement of a “clustered” effect.

      The choice of using two neighboring channels is consistent with the default parameter settings in FieldTrip’s cluster-based permutation testing (cfg.minnbchan = 2). This parameter specifies the minimum number of neighboring channels required for a sample to be included in the clustering algorithm, ensuring spatial consistency in the identified clusters. This alignment ensures that our methodology is comparable to numerous prior studies in the field, where such thresholds are standard. While it is true that all statistical analyses involve some degree of arbitrariness in parameter selection (e.g., alpha levels or clustering thresholds), our approach reflects established conventions and ensures comparability with previous findings.

      While the original study utilized source space analyses, we replicated this effect using only 102 magnetometers. This choice was made for computational simplicity, demonstrating that the effect is robust even without source-level modeling. Similarly, the "semantic violation" effect, while perceived as sparse, is based solely on magnetometer data and - in our opinion - should not be viewed as overly sparse given the methods employed. This effect aligns with the two-neighbor clustering approach, ensuring spatial consistency across magnetometers. The results reflect the robustness of the effects within the constraints of magnetometer-level analyses.

      Overall, the methodological choices, including the choice of a bayesian linear mixed effects model, the use of two neighboring channels and the reliance on magnetometers, are grounded in established practices and methodological considerations. While stricter thresholds or alternative approaches might yield different results, our methods align with best practices in the field and ensure the robustness, comparability, and replicability of our findings.

      (2) Figure 3 - the difference between horizontal and vertical eye-movements. This result is quite confusing and although the authors do suggest a possible interpretation for this in the discussion, I do wonder how robust this difference is or whether the ocular signal (in either direction) is simply too noisy or the effect too small to be detected consistently across conditions. Also, the ocular-TRFs themselves are not entirely convincing in suggesting reliable response/tracking of the audio - despite the small-but-significant increase in prediction accuracy.

      The horizontal versus vertical comparison was conducted to explore potential differences in how these dimensions contribute to ocular tracking of auditory stimuli (please also see our response to Reviewer #1, Response 5b, that includes the vertical vs. horizontal effects of Gehmacher at al. 2024). It would indeed be interesting to develop a measure that combines the two directions into a more natural representation of 'viewing,' such as a combined vector. However, this approach would require the use of complex numbers to represent both magnitude and direction simultaneously, hence the development of novel TRF algorithms capable of modeling this multidimensional signal. While beyond the scope of the current study, this presents an exciting avenue for future research and would allow us to move closer to understanding ocular speech tracking and the robustness of these effects, above and beyond the already successful replication.

      It is also important to emphasize that ocular-TRFs are derived from (viewing) behavioral data rather than neural signals, and are thus inherently subject to greater variability across participants and time. This higher variability does not necessarily indicate a small or unreliable effect but reflects the dynamic and task-dependent nature of eye movement behavior. The TRFs with shaded error margins represent this variability, highlighting how eye movements are influenced by both individual differences and moment-to-moment changes in task engagement.

      Despite this inherent variability, the significant prediction accuracy improvements confirm that ocular-TRFs reliably capture meaningful relationships between eye movements and auditory stimuli. The observed differences between horizontal and vertical TRFs further support the hypothesis that these dimensions are differentially involved in the task, possibly driven by the specific roles they play in sensorimotor coupling.

      (3) Figure 4 - this figure shows source distribution of 3 PCA components, derived from the results of the mediation effect of eye movements on the speech-tracking. Here too I am having difficulty in interpreting what the results actually are. For one, all three components are quite widespread and somewhat overlapping, so although they are statistically "independent" it is hard to learn much from them about the brain regions involved and whether they truly represent separable contributions. Similarly difficult to interpret are the time courses, which share some similarities with the known TRFs to speech (especially PC3). I would have expected to find a cleaner "auditory" response, and clearer separation between sensory regions and regions involved in the control of eye movements. I also wonder why the authors chose not to show the sourcelocalization of the neural and ocular speech-tracking responses alone - this could have helped us between understand what "mediation" of the neural response might look like.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s interest in better understanding the source distribution and time courses of the PCA components. While we acknowledge that the widespread and overlapping nature of the components may make a more fine grained interpretation challenging, it is important to emphasize that our analysis simply reflects the data, hence we can only present and interpret what the analysis revealed.

      Regarding your suggestion to show the source localization of ocular speech tracking and neural speech tracking alone, we would like to point out that ocular tracking is represented by only one channel for vertical and one channel for horizontal eye movements. Thus, in this case the estimated source of the effect are the eyes themselves. We believe that the source localization of neural speech tracking has been a thoroughly studied topic in research so far (locating it to perisylvian, auditory areas with a stronger preference for the left hemisphere) and can also be seen in Schubert et al., (2023). Nevertheless, we believe the observed PCA components still provide valuable, and most importantly novel insights into the interplay between eye movements and neural responses in speech tracking.  

      Discussion/interpretation

      (1) Although I appreciate the authors' attempt to propose a "unified" theoretical model linking predictions about low-level features to higher features, and the potential involvement of eye movements in 'active sensing' I honestly think that this model is overambitious, given the data presented in the current study. Moreover, there is very little discussion of past literature and existing models of active sensing and hierarchical processing of speech, that could have helped ground the discussion in a broader theoretical context. The entire discussion contains fewer than 20 citations (some of which are by these authors) and needs to be substantially enriched in order to provide context for the authors' claims.

      Thank you very much for your thoughtful feedback and for appreciating our approach. We hope that the revised manuscript addresses your concerns. Specifically, we now emphasize that our proposal is a conceptual framework, with the main goal to operationale “prediction tendency”, “active ocular sensing”, and “selective attention” and to “organise these entities according to their assumed function for speech processing and to describe their relationship with each other.” We did this by thoroughly revising our discussion section with a clear emphasis on the definition of terms, for example: 

      “With this speculative framework we attempt to describe and relate three important phenomena with respect to their relevance for speech processing: 1) “Anticipatory predictions” that are created in absence of attentional demands and contain probabilistic information about stimulus features (here, inferred from frequency-specific pre-activations during passive listening to sound sequences). 2) “Selective attention” that allocates resources towards relevant (whilst suppressing distracting) information (which was manipulated by the presence or absence of a distractor speaker). And finally 3) “active ocular sensing”, which refers to gaze behavior that is temporally aligned to attended (but not unattended) acoustic speech input (inferred from the discovered phenomenon of ocular speech tracking).”

      Our theoretical proposals are now followed by a recap of our results that support the respective idea, for example: 

      “...these predictions are formed in parallel and carry high feature-specificity but low temporal precision (as they are anticipatory in nature). This idea is supported by our finding that pure-tone anticipation is visible over a widespread prestimulus interval, instead of being locked to sound onset”

      “....we suggest that active (ocular) sensing does not necessarily convey feature- or content-specific information, it is merely used to boost (and conversely filter) sensory input at specific timescales (similar to neural oscillations). This assumption is supported by our finding that semantic violations are not differentially encoded in gaze behaviour than lexical controls.”

      And we put a strong focus on highlighting the boundaries of these ideas, in order to avoid theoretical confusion, misunderstandings or implicit theoretical assumption that are not grounded in data, in particular: 

      “In fact, when rejecting the notion of a single bottom-up flow of information and replacing it with a model of distributed parallel and dynamic processing, it seems only reasonable to assume that the direction of communication (between our eyes and our brain) will depend on where (within the brain) as well as when we look at the effect. Thus, the regions and time-windows reported here should be taken as an illustration of oculo-neural communication during speech processing rather than an attempt to "explain" neural speech processing by ocular movements.”

      “Even though the terminology [“hierarchy”] is suggestive of a fixed sequence (similar to a multi storey building) with levels that must be traversed one after each other (and even the more spurious idea of a rooftop, where the final perceptual experience is formed and stored into memory), we distance ourselves from these (possibly unwarranted) ideas. Our usage of “higher” or “lower” simply refers to the observation that the probability of a feature at a higher (as in more associative) level affects the interpretation (and thus the representation and prediction) of a feature at lower (as in more segregated) levels (Caucheteux et al., 2023).”

      Additionally, we have made substantial efforts to present complementary results (see response to Reviewer #2, point 8) to further substantiate our interpretation. Importantly, we have updated the illustration of the model (see response to Reviewer #, minor point 1) and refined both our interpretations and the conceptual language in the Discussion. Furthermore, we have included additional citations where appropriate to strengthen our argument.

      We would also like to briefly note that this section of the Discussion aimed to highlight existing literature that bridges the gap our model seeks to address. However, as this is a relatively underexplored area, the references available are necessarily limited.

      (2) Given my many reservations about the data, as presented in the current version of the manuscript, I find much of the discussion to be an over-interpretation of the results. This might change if the authors are able to present more robust results, as per some of my earlier comments.

      We sincerely hope that our comprehensive revisions have addressed your concerns and improved the manuscript to your satisfaction.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):*

      The manuscript by Hariani et al. presents experiments designed to improve our understanding of the connectivity and computational role of Unipolar Brush Cells (UBCs) within the cerebellar cortex, primarily lobes IX and X. The authors develop and cross several genetic lines of mice that express distinct fluorophores in subsets of UBCs, combined with immunocytochemistry that also distinguishes subtypes of UBCs, and they use confocal microscopy and electrophysiology to characterize the electrical and synaptic properties of subsets of so-labelled cells, and their synaptic connectivity within the cerebellar cortex. The authors then generate a computer model to test the possible computational functions of such interconnected UBCs.

      Using these approaches, the authors report that:

      1) GRP-driven TDtomato is expressed exclusively in a subset (20%) of ON-UBCs, defined electrophysiologically (excited by mossy fiber afferent stimulation via activation of UBC AMPA and mGluR1 receptors) and immunocytochemically by their expression of mGluR1.

      2) UBCs ID'd/tagged by mCitrine expression in Brainbow mouse line P079 are expressed in a similar minority subset of OFF-UBCs defined electrophysiologically (inhibited by mossy fiber afferent stimulation via activation of UBC mGluR2 receptors) and immunocytochemically by their expression of Calretinin. However, such mCitrine expression was also detected in some mGluR1 positive UBCs, which may not have shown up electrophysiologically because of the weaker fluorophore expression without antibody amplification.

      This is correctly stated with the exception that the P079 mouse line itself expresses mCitrine. The Brainbow mouse line was used in the connectivity study by crossing it to the GRP-Cre or Calretinin-Cre lines.

      3) Confocal analysis of crossed lines of mice (GRP X P079) stained with antibodies to mGluR1 and calretinin documented the existence of all possible permutations of interconnectivity between cells (ON-ON, ON-OFF, OFF-OFF, OFF-ON), but their overall abundance was low, and neither their absolute nor relative abundance was quantified.

      They were certainly rare to observe using our approaches, but we reasoned that the densities of such connections are not possible to estimate accurately. Please see discussion below.

      4) A computational model (NEURON ) indicated that the presence of an intermediary UBC (in a polysynaptic circuit from MF to UBC to UBC) could prolong bursts (MF-ON-ON), prolong pauses (MF-ON-OFF), cause a delayed burst (MF-OFF- OFF), cause a delayed pause (MF-OFF-ON) relative to solely MF to UBC synapses which would simply exhibit long bursts (MF-ON) or long pauses (MF-OFF).

      The authors thus conclude that the pattern of interconnected UBCs provides an extended and more nuanced pattern of firing within the cerebellar cortex that could mediate longer-lasting sensorimotor responses.

      The cerebellum's long-known role in motor skills and reflexes, and associated disorders, combined with our nascent understanding of its role in cognitive, emotional, and appetitive processing, makes understanding its circuitry and processing functions of broad interest to the neuroscience and biomedical community. The focus on UBCs, which are largely restricted to vestibular lobules of the cerebellum reduces the breadth of likely interest somewhat. The overall design of specific experiments is rigorous and the use of fluorophore expressing mouse lines is creative. The data that is presented and the writing are clear. However, the overall experimental design has issues that reduce overall interpretation (please see specific issues for details), which combined with a lack of thorough analysis of the experimental outcomes severely undermines the value of the NEURON model results and the advance in our understanding of cerebellar processing in situ (again, please see specific issues for details).

      Specific issues:

      1) All data gathered with inhibition blocked. All of the UBC response data (Fig. 1) was gathered in the presence of GABAAR and Glycine R blockers. While such an approach is appropriate generally for isolating glutamatergic synaptic currents, and specifically for examining and characterizing monosynaptic responses to single stimuli, it becomes problematic in the context of assaying synaptic and action potential response durations for long-lasting responses, and in particular for trains of stimuli, when feed-forward and feed-back inhibition modulates responses to afferent stimulation. That is, even for single MF stimuli, given the >500ms duration of UBC synaptic currents, there is plenty of time for feedback inhibition from Golgi cells (or feedforward, from MF to Golgi cell excitation) to interrupt AP firing driven by the direct glutamatergic synaptic excitation. This issue is compounded further for all of the experiments examining trains of MF stimuli. Beyond the impact of feedback inhibition on the AP firing of any given UBC, it would also obviously reduce/alter/interrupt that UBC's synaptic drive of downstream UBCs. This issue fundamentally undermines our ability to interpret the simulation data of Vm and AP firing of both the modeled intermediate and downstream UBC, in terms of applying it to possible cerebellar cortical processing in situ.

      The goal of Figure 1 was to determine the cell types of labeled UBCs in transgenic mouse lines, which is determined entirely by their synaptic responses to glutamate (Borges-Merjane and Trussell, 2015). Thus, blocking inhibition was essential to produce clear results in the characterization of GRP and P079 UBCs. While GABAergic/glycinergic feedforward and feedback inhibition is certainly important in the intact circuit, it was not our intention, nor was it possible, to study its contribution in the present study. Leaving inhibition unblocked does not lead to a physiologically realistic stimulation pattern in acute brain slices, because electrical stimulation produces synchronous excitation and inhibition by directly exciting Golgi cells, rather than their synaptic inputs. The main inhibition that UBCs receive that are crucial to determining burst or pause durations is not via GABA/glycine, but instead through mGluR2, which lasts for 100-1000s of milliseconds. The main excitation that drives UBC firing is mGluR1 and AMPA, which both last 100-1000s of milliseconds. Thus, these large conductances are unlikely to be significantly shaped by 1-10 ms IPSCs from feedforward and feedback GABA/glycine inhibition. Recent studies that examined the duration of bursting or pausing in UBCs had inhibition blocked in their experiments, presumably for the reasons outlined above (Guo et al., 2021; Huson et al., 2023).

      In Author response image 1 is an example showing the synaptic currents and firing patterns in an ON UBC before and after blocking inhibition. The GABA/glycinergic inhibition is fast, occurs soon after the stimuli and has little to no effect on the slow inward current that develops after the end of stimulation, which is what drives firing for 100s of milliseconds.

      Author response image 1.

      Example showing small effect of GABAergic and glycinergic inhibition on excitatory currents and burst duration. A) Excitatory postsynaptic currents in response to train of 10 presynaptic stimuli at 50 Hz before (black) and after (Grey) blocking GABA and glycine receptors. The slow inward current that occurs at the end of stimulation is little affected. B) Expanded view of the synaptic currents evoked during the train of stimuli. GABA/glycine receptors mediate the fast outward currents that occur immediately after the first couple stimuli. C) Three examples of the bursts caused by the 50 Hz stimulation in the same cell without blocking GABA and glycine receptors. D) Three examples in the same cell after blocking GABA and glycine receptors.

      2) No consideration for the involvement of polysynaptic UBCs driving UBC responses to MF stimulation in electrophysiology experiments. Given the established existence (in this manuscript and Dino et al. 2000 Neurosci, Dino et al. 2000 ProgBrainRes, Nunzi and Mugnaini 2000 JCompNeurol, Nunzi et al. 2001 JCompNeurol) of polysynaptic connections from MFs to UBCs to UBCs, the MF evoked UBC responses established in this manuscript, especially responses to trains of stimuli could be mediated by direct MF inputs, or to polysynaptic UBC inputs, or possibly both (to my awareness not established either way). Thus the response durations could already include extension of duration by polysynaptic inputs, and so would overestimate the duration of monosynaptic inputs, and thus polysynaptic amplification/modulation, observed in the NEURON model.

      We are confident that the synaptic responses shown are monosynaptic for several reasons. UBCs receive a single mossy fiber input on their dendritic brush, and thus if our stimulation produces a reliable, short-latency response consistent with a monosynaptic input, then there is not likely to be a disynaptic input, because the main input is accounted for by the monosynaptic response. In all cells included in our data set, the fast AMPA receptor-mediated currents always occurred with short latency (1.24 ± 0.29 ms; mean ± SD; n = 13), high reliability (no failures to produce an EPSC in any of the 13 GRP UBCs in this data set), and low jitter (SD of latency; 0.074 ± 0.046 ms; mean ± SD; n = 13). These measurements have been added to the results section. In some rare cases, we did observe disynaptic currents, which were easily distinguishable because a single electrical stimulation produced a burst of EPSCs at variable latencies. Please see example in Author response image 2. These cases of disynaptic input, which have been reported by others (Diño et al., 2000; Nunzi and Mugnaini, 2000; van Dorp and De Zeeuw, 2015) support the conclusion that UBCs receive input from other UBCs.

      Author response image 2.

      Example of GRP UBC with disynaptic input. Three examples of the effect of a single presynaptic stimulus (triangle) in a GRP UBC with presumed disynaptic input. Note the variable latency of the first evoked EPSC, bursts of EPSCs, and spontaneous EPSCs.

      3) Lack of quantification of subtypes of UBC interconnectivity. Given that it is already established that UBCs synapse onto other UBCs (see refs above), the main potential advance of this manuscript in terms of connectivity is the establishment and quantification of ON-ON, ON-OFF, OFF-ON, and OFF-OFF subtypes of UBC interconnections. But, the authors only establish that each type exists, showing specific examples, but no quantification of the absolute or relative density was provided, and the authors' unquantified wording explicitly or implicitly states that they are not common. This lack of quantification and likely small number makes it difficult to know how important or what impact such synapses have on cerebellar processing, in the model and in situ.

      As noted by the reviewer, the connections between UBCs were rare to observe. We decided against attempting to quantify the absolute or relative density of connections for several reasons. A major reason for rare observations of anatomical connections between UBCs is likely due to the sparse labeling. First, the GRP mouse line only labels 20% of ON UBCs and we are unable to test whether postsynaptic connectivity of GRP ON UBCs is the same as that of the rest of the population of ON UBCs that are not labeled in the GRP mouse line. Second, the Brainbow reporter mouse only labels a small population of Cre expressing cells for unknown reasons. Third, the Brainbow reporter expression was so low that antibody amplification was necessary, which then limited the labeled cells to those close to the surface of the brain slices, because of known antibody penetration difficulties. Therefore, we refrained from estimating the density of these connections, because each of these variables reduced the labeling to unknown degrees and we reasoned that extrapolating our rare observations to the total population would be inaccurate.

      A paper that investigated UBC connectivity using organotypic slice cultures from P8 mice suggests that 2/3 of the UBC population receives UBC input, based on the observation that 2/3 of the mossy fibers did not degenerate as would be expected after 2 days in vitro if they were severed from a distant cell body (Nunzi and Mugnaini, 2000). It remains to be seen if this high proportion is due to the young age of these mice or is also the case in adult mice. Even if these connections are indeed rare, they are expected to have profound effects on the circuit, as each UBC has multiple mossy fiber terminals (Berthie and Axelrad, 1994), and mossy fiber terminals are estimated to contact 40 granule cells each (Jakab and Hamori, 1988). We have added a comment regarding this point to the discussion.

      4) Lack of critical parameters in NEURON model.

      A) The model uses # of molecules of glutamate released as the presumed quantal content, and this factor is constant. However, no consideration of changes in # of vesicles released from single versus trains of APs from MFs or UBCs is included. At most simple synapses, two sequential APs alters release probability, either up or down, and release probability changes dynamically with trains of APs. It is therefore reasonable to imagine UBC axon release probability is at least as complicated, and given the large surface area of contact between two UBCs, the number of vesicles released for any given AP is also likely more complex.

      B) the model does not include desensitization of AMPA receptors, which in the case of UBCs can paradoxically reduce response magnitude as vesicle release and consequent glutamate concentration in the cleft increases (Linney et al. 1997 JNeurophysiol, Lu et al. 2017 Neuron, Balmer et al. 2021 eLIFE), as would occur with trains of stimuli at MF to ON-UBCs.

      A) The model produces synaptic AMPA and mGluR2 currents that reproduce those we recorded in vitro. We did not find it necessary to implement changes in glutamate release during a train as the model was fit to UBC data with the assumption that the glutamate transient did not change during the train. If there is a change in neurotransmitter release during a train, it is therefore built into the model, which has the advantage of reducing its complexity. UBCs are a special case where the postsynaptic currents are mediated mostly by the total amount of transmitter released. Most of the evoked current occurs tens to hundreds of milliseconds after neurotransmitter release and is therefore much more sensitive to total release and less sensitive to how it is released during the train. Author response image 3 shows the effect of reducing the amount of glutamate released by 10% on each stimulus in the model. Despite a significant change in the pattern of neurotransmitter release, as well as a reduction in the total amount of glutamate, the slow EPSC still decays over the course of hundreds of milliseconds.

      Author response image 3.

      Effect of short-term depression of neurotransmitter release. A) The top trace shows the glutamate transient that drives the AMPA receptor model used in our study. No change in release is implemented, although the slow tail of each transient summates during the train. The bottom trace shows the modeled AMPA receptor mediated current. B) In this model the amount of glutamate released is reduced by 10% on each stimulus. The duration of the slow AMPA current that develops at the end of stimulation is similar, despite a profound change in the pattern of neurotransmitter exposure.

      B) The detailed kinetic AMPA receptor model used here accurately reproduces desensitization, and in fact recovery from desensitization is what mediates the slow ON UBC current. This AMPA receptor is a 13-state model, including 4 open states with 1-4 glutamates bound, 4 closed states with 1-4 glutamates bound, 4 desensitized states with 1-4 glutamates bound, and 5 closed states with 0-4 glutamates bound. The forward and reverse rates between different states in the model were fit to AMPA receptor currents recorded from dissociated UBCs and they accurately reproduced the ON UBC currents evoked by synaptic stimulation in our previous work (Balmer et al., 2021).

      5) Lack of quantification of various electrophysiological responses. UBCs are defined (ON or OFF) based on inward or outward synaptic response, but no information is provided about the range of the key parameter of duration across cells, which seems most critical to the current considerations. There is a similar lack of quantification across cells of AP duration in response to stimulation or current injections, or during baseline. The latter lack is particularly problematic because, in agreement with previous publications, the raw data in Fig. 1 shows ON UBCs as quiescent until MF stimulation and OFF UBCs firing spontaneously until MF stimulation, but, for example, at least one ON UBC in the NEURON model is firing spontaneously until synaptically activated by an OFF UBC (Fig. 11A), and an OFF UBC is silent until stimulated by a presynaptic OFF UBC (Fig. 11C). This may be expected/explainable theoretically, but then such cells should be observed in the raw data.

      To address this reasonable concern of a general lack of quantification of electrophysiological responses we have added data characterizing the slow inward and outward currents evoked by synaptic stimulation in GRP and P079 UBCs in the results section and in new panels in Figure 1. We report the action potential pause lengths in P079 UBCs and burst lengths in ON UBCs in the results section. However, we favor the duration of the currents to the length of burst and pause, because the currents do not depend on a stable resting membrane potential, which is itself difficult to determine in intracellular recordings of these small cells. We have added peak times and decay time constants of the slow inward and outward currents in ON and OFF UBCs in the results section and have added new panels to figure 1.

      In a series of recent publications that focused on UBC firing, the authors argue that cell-attached recordings are necessary to determine accurately the burst and pause lengths, as well as spontaneous firing rates (Guo et al., 2021; Huson et al., 2023). (The trade-off of these extracellular recordings is that the monosynaptic nature of the input is nearly impossible to confirm.) Spontaneous firing rates were variable within both GRP and P079 UBCs from silent to firing regularly or in bursts, as previously reported for UBCs (Kim et al., 2012; van Dorp and De Zeeuw, 2015). For clarity, we chose to model the GRP UBCs as silent unless receiving synaptic input and P079 UBCs as active unless receiving synaptic input. As the reviewer suggests, we have observed UBCs firing in the patterns similar to those shown in the model UBCs that have input from a spontaneously active presynaptic UBC. In Author response image 4 are some examples.

      Author response image 4.

      Examples of UBCs that receive spontaneous input. A) Three ON UBCs that had spontaneous EPSCs, suggesting the presence of an active presynaptic UBC. B) Two OFF UBCs that had spontaneous outward currents.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      In this paper, the authors presented a compelling rationale for investigating the role of UBCs in prolonging and diversifying signals. Based on the two types of UBCs known as ON and OFF UBC subtypes, they have highlighted the existing gaps in understanding UBCs connectivity and the need to investigate whether UBCs target UBCs of the same subtype, different subtypes, or both. The importance of this knowledge is for understanding how sensory signals are extended and diversified in the granule cell layer.

      The authors designed very interesting approaches to study UBCs connectivity by utilizing transgenic mice expressing GFP and RFP in UBCs, Brainbow approach, immunohistochemical and electrophysiological analysis, and computational models to understand how the feed-forward circuits of interconnected UBCs transform their inputs.

      This study provided evidence for the existence of distinct ON and OFF UBC subtypes based on their electrophysiological properties, anatomical characteristics, and expression patterns of mGluR1 and calretinin in the cerebellum. The findings support the classification of GRP UBCs as ON UBCs and P079 UBCs as OFF UBCs and suggest the presence of synaptic connections between the ON and OFF UBC subtypes. In addition, they found that GRP and P079 UBCs form parallel and convergent pathways and have different membrane capacitance and excitability. Furthermore, they showed that UBCs of the same subtype provide input to one another and modify the input to granule cells, which could provide a circuit mechanism to diversify and extend the pattern of spiking produced by mossy fiber input. Accordingly, they suggested that these transformations could provide a circuit mechanism for maintaining a sensory representation of movement for seconds.

      Overall, the article is well written in a sound detailed format, very interesting with excellent discovery and suggested model, however, I have some comments/suggestions that may help to improve this manuscript:

      • The discovery of UBCs innervating each other and their own subtypes, suggesting the presence of feed-forward networks in the cerebellum, is an incredibly fascinating and exciting finding followed by an intriguing model by authors. However, it is worth considering an alternative model as well. I acknowledge that visualizing such interactions using current tools and methods can be challenging ("The approaches used here were not able to determine the existence of networks of more than 2 UBCs connected one after the other. If present, 3 or more UBCs in series could extend and transform the input in even more dramatic ways. The temporal diversity that UBC circuits generate may underlie the flexibility of the cerebellum to coordinate movements over a broad range of behaviors."). Therefore, if this is the case in which more than 2 UBCs connected one after the other, then an alternative model PERHAPS resembles the basal nuclei, with its direct and indirect circuits, can be considered (maybe a type of circular model). The basal nuclei circuits are also regulated by modulators such as D1 dopamine receptors in the direct pathway, causing depolarization, and D2 dopamine receptors in the indirect pathway, resulting in hyperpolarization upon dopamine activation. This approach could involve using computational models to gain insight into potential alternatives within this pathway (may be a future direction).

      Thank you for this suggestion to consider the potentially similar circuit interactions in the basal nuclei. We will certainly investigate this further as we move forward with modeling the feed-forward networks in the cerebellum.

      • GRP UBCs are more densely distributed in lobes VI-IX, while P079 UBCs are more densely distributed in the dorsal leaflet of lobe X in sagittal sections. While the cerebellum is well known for its characteristic stripy pattern, are UBC distributions the same in coronal/transverse section?

      UBCs of different types, based on their expression of specific proteins, have overlapping but somewhat distinct distributions in coronal sections. The densities of calretinin-expressing UBCs are higher within Zebrin II positive zones and form sagittal stripes, whereas the densities of mGluR1-expressing and PLCb4-expressing UBCs vary less but are in their highest densities at the midline (Chung et al., 2009; Sekerkova et al., 2014). The difference noted by the reviewer between the dorsal and ventral leaflets of lobe X are the most distinct that we know of in the GRP and P079 populations.

      • The extension of the axons from both subtypes of UBCs show they are long enough to pass several UBCs and even projections are directed toward the white matter (e.g. Fig 9A), suggesting targeting the UBCs or granule cells in other lobules. Is it suggesting UBCs connectivity between different lobules (perhaps longitudinal connectivity)? Is there any observation or information in coronal/transverse section to visualize mediolateral connectivity?

      This is certainly worth exploring in future work. UBCs have been reported to project their axons into and across the white matter (Diño et al., 2000). To our knowledge, whether UBCs project their axons out of one lobule and into another has not been examined.

      • The limitation in identifying networks involving more than two sequentially connected UBCs was briefly noted. I suggest including a paragraph describing limitations and discussing the implications of the findings would enhance the overall impact of the research and broaden our understanding of cerebellar function.

      • It is a pity that there is no clear conclusion to the discussion of this very interesting study. I suggest providing the key points as a conclusion.

      Thank you for these suggestions. Limitations and implications are included throughout the discussion section and we feel that the summary figure and significance statement now sufficiently convey the key conclusions of the study.

      • Please make the correction in Figure 2A by relabeling it as IXa, IXb, and IXc to correct the typographical error.

      Fixed

      • I recommend rotating Figure 7A to align its orientation with the other figures for consistency.

      Fixed

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor comments that should be addressed for clarity:

      1) In the NEURON model, why was the reversal potential for the leak conductance and Gmax for Ih different for the two types of UBCs. Relatedly, why is Erev for GABAB -95mV if Ek is -90mV?

      The h-current (Ih) was estimated from a hyperpolarizing current step in both cell types and these data have been added to the result section and as a panel in Figure 1. The conductance of Ih in the model cells were adjusted accordingly, with OFF UBCs having ~3 times that of ON UBCs and approximated the measured voltage sag, as we now describe in the methods section. The reversal potential of the model mGluR2 current (which is based on a model of GABAB) has been fixed.

      2) Line 69 justification for their dual genetic approach is a bit too strong: "Paired recordings not possible". It may be difficult, but it is certainly possible.

      Reworded

      3) Confusing wording, only one stat for two parameters? Line 93: These currents were produced by both mGluR1 and AMPA receptors, as they were blocked by their antagonists JNJ16259685 and GYKI53655, respectively (92.86% {plus minus} 3.25; paired t-test; P=0.0066; n = 9; 95 mean {plus minus} SEM) (Fig 1D-E).

      Reworded

      References

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    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      First and foremost, we would like to thank all the editors and reviewers for their thoughtful and thorough evaluations of our manuscript. We greatly appreciate their assessment about the novelty and strength in this study and have revised the manuscript according to their recommendations. Below are our detailed responses and revisions based on the reviewer recommendations.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      1) It is unclear the rationale for choosing the P35-42 adolescent window for stimulating the mesofrontal dopamine system.

      The dopaminergic innervation in the mesofrontal circuit exhibits a protracted maturation from P21 to P56 (Kalsbeek, Voorn et al. 1988, Niwa, Kamiya et al. 2010, Naneix, Marchand et al. 2012, Hoops and Flores 2017). P35-42 is in the center of this period and captures the mid-adolescent stage in rodents (Spear 2000). We have previously shown that increasing dopamine neuron activity by wheel running or optogenetic stimulation during this period, but not adulthood, can induce formation of mesofrontal dopaminergic boutons and enhance mesofrontal circuit activity in wild-type mice (Mastwal, Ye et al. 2014). We therefore chose the P35-P42 adolescent window to stimulate the mesofrontal dopamine circuit and test the long-term effect of this intervention on the frontal circuit and memory-guided decision-making deficits in mutant mice. We have detailed this rationale in the revised manuscript when we first introduced this intervention.

      2). Please provide a justification for choosing the optical recording M2 neuronal activity instead of the prelimbic prefrontal cortex, which has been known to show the highest levels of dopamine terminals.

      While the prelimbic area has the highest level of dopamine terminals among frontal cortical regions, a robust presence of dopaminergic terminals and dopamine release in the M2 frontal cortex have been well documented (Berger, Gaspar et al. 1991, Mastwal, Ye et al. 2014, Aransay, Rodriguez-Lopez et al. 2015, Patriarchi, Cho et al. 2018). The M2 cortex plays an important role in action planning, generating the earliest neural signals among frontal cortical regions that are related to upcoming choice during spatial navigation (Sul, Kim et al. 2010, Sul, Jo et al. 2011). Our chemogenetic inactivation experiments (Supplementary Fig 1) has further confirmed the involvement of M2 in the memory-guided Y-maze navigation task used in this study. Technically, M2 has the advantage of being more amendable to optical recording of neuronal activity without the tissue damage caused by implanting a lens, which would be necessary for deeper areas such as the prelimbic cortex. We have provided this justification in the revised manuscript.

      3). What was the rationale for using the 3-day chemogenetic stimulation paradigm?

      Our previous work in wild-type adolescent mice showed that a single optogenetic stimulation session or a 2-hr wheel running session is sufficient to induce bouton formation in mesofrontal dopaminergic axons (Mastwal, Ye et al. 2014). In this study, we sought to rescue existing structural and functional deficits in the mesofrontal dopaminergic circuits due to genetic mutations. Because previous studies suggested that an optimal level of dopamine is important for normal cognitive function (Arnsten, Cai et al. 1994, Robbins 2000, Floresco 2013), we elected to do multiple stimulation sessions to boost the potential rescue effects. We tested both a 3-day and a 3-week stimulation paradigm, and found that the 3-day, but not the 3-week paradigm led to robust functional improvement (Fig. 5). These results indicate that moderate but not excessive stimulation of dopamine neurons can provide functional improvement of a deficient mesofrontal circuit. We have revised our text to clarify the rationale for these experiments.

      4). A major maturational event occurring in the prefrontal cortex is the gain of local GABAergic transmission, which is crucial for sustaining proper levels of Y-maze tasks. I am wondering if the authors have any thoughts about what is really happening at the postsynaptic level following adolescent dopamine stimulation.

      The developmental increases in dopaminergic innervation to the frontal cortex and local GABAergic transmission are likely synergistic processes, which both contribute to the maturation of high-order cognitive functions supported by the frontal cortex (Caballero and Tseng 2016, Larsen and Luna 2018). Previous electrophysiological studies have suggested that dopamine can act on five different receptors expressed in both excitatory and inhibitory postsynaptic neurons (Seamans and Yang 2004, Tseng and O'Donnell 2007, O'Donnell 2010). At the network level, dopaminergic signaling can increase the signal-to-noise ratio and temporal synchrony of neural activity during cognitive tasks (Rolls, Loh et al. 2008, Vander Weele, Siciliano et al. 2018, Lohani, Martig et al. 2019). As the frontal GABAergic inhibitory network undergoes major functional remodeling during adolescence (Caballero and Tseng 2016), adolescent stimulation of dopamine neurons may interact with this maturational process to promote a network configuration conducive for synchronous and high signal-to-noise neural computation (Porter, Rizzo et al. 1999, Murty, Calabro et al. 2016, Mukherjee, Carvalho et al. 2019). The microcircuit mechanisms underlying adolescent dopamine stimulation induced changes, particularly in the GABAergic inhibitory neurons, will be an exciting direction for future research. We have extended our discussion about these points in the revised manuscript.

      5). A change in the density of dopamine boutons is unlikely to be limited to the M2 region in Arc-/- mice. The authors should provide some data illustrating that similar changes are widespread across the medial prefrontal cortex, and that the optical recording in the M2 region was preferred for technical limitations and to avoid damaging areas in the frontal cortex.

      As discussed above, this study focused on the M2 region of the frontal cortex because it is functionally required for memory-guided Y-maze navigation, generates behavioral choice-related neural signals during spatial navigation, and is optically most accessible. The medial prefrontal regions (anterior cingulate, prelimbic and infralimbic) ventral to M2 also receive dense dopaminergic innervation and can act in concert with M2 in decision making (Sul, Kim et al. 2010, Sul, Jo et al. 2011, Barthas and Kwan 2017). As dopaminergic innervations to the frontal cortical regions progress in a ventral-to-dorsal direction during development (Kalsbeek, Voorn et al. 1988, Hoops and Flores 2017), how the changes induced by adolescent dopamine stimulation may proceed spatial-temporally across different frontal subregions requires more extensive investigation in the future. We have added this discussion into the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The manuscript by Mastwal and colleagues explores how transient adolescent stimulation of ventral midbrain neurons that project to the frontal cortex may help to improve performance on certain memory tasks. The manuscript provides an interesting set of observations that DREADD-based activation over only 3 days during adolescence provides a fast-acting and long-lasting improvement in performance on Y-maze spontaneous alternation as well as aspects of neuronal function as assessed using in vivo imaging methods. While interesting, there are several weaknesses. First and foremost, it is not clear that the effects the authors are observing are mediated by dopamine. It has been clearly documented that the DAT-Cre line provides a better representation of midbrain dopamine cells in the mouse, particularly near the midline of the ventral midbrain (Lammel et al., Neuron 2015). This is precisely where the cells that project to the frontal cortex are located. Therefore, the selection of TH-Cre is problematic. It is very likely that the authors are labeling a substantial number of non-dopaminergic cells.

      We agree with Review 2 that the DAT-Cre line can provide specific labeling of midbrain dopamine neurons, particularly those projecting to the striatum, as discussed in the cited study (Lammel, Steinberg et al. 2015). DAT transports the extracellularly released dopamine back into presynaptic terminals, but it is not essential for dopamine synthesis and release (Sulzer, Cragg et al. 2016). Mesocortical dopamine neurons in the ventral tegmental area (VTA) express very little DAT (Sesack, Hawrylak et al. 1998, Lammel, Hetzel et al. 2008, Li, Qi et al. 2013), which limits the use of the DAT-Cre line to target these neurons (Lammel, Steinberg et al. 2015). Because mesocortical dopamine neurons have strong expression of TH, a key enzyme involved in dopamine synthesis, TH-Cre lines have been extensively used to study the mesocortical pathway (Lammel, Lim et al. 2012, Gunaydin, Grosenick et al. 2014, Ellwood, Patel et al. 2017, Vander Weele, Siciliano et al. 2018, Lohani, Martig et al. 2019). We provide more details below about our rationales for using TH-Cre rather than DAT-Cre mice in our study and the revisions we made in response to the reviewer’s specific recommendations.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      1). The authors should rigorously demonstrate that there is a reasonable midbrain DA projection to the coordinates that they are assessing and that their effects are due to DA release from these cells. It is not clear that there is a VTA dopaminergic projection to M2 - it does not appear for example in the Allen Mouse Brain Connectivity Atlas (https://connectivity.brainmap.org/projection/experiment/siv/160540751? imageId=160541123&imageType=TWO_PHOTON,SEGMENTATION&initImage=TWO_PHOTON&x=17321&y=15284&z=3). Though there is a projection to the mPFC, at the coordinates the authors report, there does not appear to be any signal from DAT-Cre mice. However, there is much more signal when expression is not restricted to dopamine cells (https://connectivity.brain-map.org/projection/experiment/siv/165975096? imageId=165975158&imageType=TWO_PHOTON,SEGMENTATION&initImage=TWO_PHOTON&x=17950&y=11504&z=3). The argument that these cells may express less TH is not relevant for this particular issue. Therefore, it is possible that the vast majority of observed effects are not in fact mediated by dopamine but another neurotransmitter such as glutamate. While the experiment using SCH23390 does suggest DA receptors may be involved, this result in isolation doesn't alleviate this caveat - there can be, for example, DA release from NE cells (e.g., Takeuchi et al., Nature 2016). While this does not entirely invalidate the authors' results, as their effects of stimulation of ventral midbrain cells to the forebrain don't necessarily have to occur via dopamine - the mechanism by how this is occurring needs to be clear.

      While the prelimbic area has the highest level of dopaminergic terminals among frontal cortical regions, a robust presence of midbrain dopaminergic projections and dopamine release in the M2 frontal cortex have been well established by immunostaining, viral labeling, single-cell axon-tracing, and in vivo imaging of recently developed dopamine biosensors (Berger, Gaspar et al. 1991, Mastwal, Ye et al. 2014, Aransay, Rodriguez-Lopez et al. 2015, Ye, Mastwal et al. 2017, Patriarchi, Cho et al. 2018). It has also been reported repeatedly that mesocortical dopamine neurons in the VTA express very little DAT, which is different from mesostriatal dopamine neurons (Sesack, Hawrylak et al. 1998, Lammel, Hetzel et al. 2008, Li, Qi et al. 2013). This limitation in the use of the DAT-Cre line to target mesocortical dopamine neurons has been acknowledged in previous studies (Lammel, Steinberg et al. 2015) and is consistent with the reviewer’s observation of DAT-Cre labeling in the Allen Brain Mouse Connectivity atlas. Additionally, and interestingly, recent extensive evaluation of the DAT-Cre line reported ectopic labeling of multiple non-dopaminergic neuronal populations (Soden, Miller et al. 2016, Stagkourakis, Spigolon et al. 2018, Papathanou, Dumas et al. 2019). Our own evaluation of the DAT-Cre line’s utility for cortical imaging also revealed sparse axonal labeling and sporadic ectopic labeling of cortical cell somas. We have included representative DAT-Cre images in Author response image 1 to highlight the limitations of this line in the study of the dopaminergic mesocortical circuit.

      Author response image 1.

      Example images from DAT-Cre/Ai14 mice. Left most panel shows little axonal labeling in Layer 5/6 of M2. The center panel shows sparse axonal label in Layer 1/2 of M2, but also ectopic labeling of cell soma. The right panel shows a lack of labeling in L1/2 of prelimbic cortex as well. Scale bars 50um.

      We as well as others have confirmed that TH immunoreactivity in the frontal cortex can label dopaminergic axons originated from the VTA, and ablation of VTA dopaminergic neurons removes this labeling (Niwa, Jaaro-Peled et al. 2013, Ye, Mastwal et al. 2017). Because mesocortical dopamine neurons have much stronger TH expression than DAT expression (Sesack, Hawrylak et al. 1998, Lammel, Hetzel et al. 2008, Li, Qi et al. 2013, Lammel, Steinberg et al. 2015), TH-Cre lines have been frequently used to label these neurons and study the mesocortical pathway (Lammel, Lim et al. 2012, Gunaydin, Grosenick et al. 2014, Ellwood, Patel et al. 2017, Vander Weele, Siciliano et al. 2018, Lohani, Martig et al. 2019). While TH-Cre expression itself is not restricted to dopaminergic neurons, we targeted our viral injections to the VTA and optogenetic stimulation to the cortical dopaminergic projection target area in M2 (Patriarchi, Cho et al. 2018) to specifically modulate mesofrontal dopaminergic axons. In addition, we tested D1 antagonist’s effects in our manipulations. Although we targeted dopamine neurons in our adolescent stimulation, the final behavioral outcome likely includes contributions from co-released neurotransmitters such as glutamate and non-dopaminergic neurons via network effects (Morales and Margolis 2017, Lohani, Martig et al. 2019), which will be interesting directions for future research. We have revised our results and discussion sections to highlight our rationales for using the TH-Cre line and the open mechanistic questions for future studies.

      2) SSFOs don't increase excitability like DREADDs, but rather, cause long-lasting hyperactivity through continuous passage of cations. What the actual firing properties are of these cells over a long period of time is not clear.

      We did not measure the precise firing patterns of the dopaminergic neurons targeted by SSFOs but evaluated the effects of SSFO activation on the frontal cortex. Similar to our DREADD-Gq mediated activity changes in the mesofrontal circuit, we found increased frontal cortical activity post-light stimulation of frontal dopamine axons in our SSFO treated animals (Fig 6a-c, S6e). While quantitatively the firing patterns of DREADD-Gq and SSFO activated dopaminergic neurons likely differ, qualitatively both of these manipulations lead to increased mesofrontal circuit activity and improvements in cognitive behaviors. In our previous work with wild-type adolescent mice, both wheel running and a single 10-min session of phasic optogenetic stimulation of the VTA resulted in dopaminergic bouton outgrowth in the frontal cortex (Mastwal, Ye et al. 2014). Taken together, these results suggest that adolescent dopaminergic mesofrontal projections are highly responsive to neural activity changes and a variety of adolescent stimulation paradigms are sufficient to elicit lasting changes in this circuit. We have added this discussion of the limitations and implications of our study into the revised manuscript.

      3) It is not clear what the increase in boutons means, given that DA release is thought to largely occur via non-synaptic release.

      Although many of dopamine boutons are not associated with defined postsynaptic structures, these axonal boutons and the active zones they contain are the major release sites for dopamine (Goldman-Rakic, Leranth et al. 1989, Arbuthnott and Wickens 2007, Sulzer, Cragg et al. 2016, Liu, Goel et al. 2021). Past studies have established a consistent association between increased dopaminergic innervation in the frontal cortex and an increase in dopamine levels (Niwa, Kamiya et al. 2010, Naneix, Marchand et al. 2012). Our previous work also found that increasing dopaminergic boutons through adolescent VTA stimulation led to prolonged frontal local field potential responses with high-frequency oscillations (Mastwal, Ye et al. 2014), which is characteristic of increased dopaminergic signaling (Lewis and O'Donnell 2000, Gireesh and Plenz 2008, Wood, Kim et al. 2012, Lohani, Martig et al. 2019). Importantly, in our quantification of the structural changes in this study, we evaluated boutons which were labeled with synaptophysin, a molecular marker indicating the presence of synaptic vesicle release machinery (Li, Tasic et al. 2010, Oh, Harris et al. 2014). Thus, our study, taken in the context of the previous work, suggests the increased number of boutons signifying an increase in dopaminergic signaling within the mesofrontal circuit. We have added this discussion into the revised manuscript.

      4) The use of Arc and DISC mutants as models of schizophrenia is perhaps a bit overstated - while deficits in prefrontal innervation certainly occur, there are many differences between these models and the human disease states. Language should be toned down accordingly, particularly in the introduction.

      We strived to avoid overstating the extent to which the mouse lines are models for specific diseases, but we can appreciate that this may not have been clear in our original writing. We have adjusted our language to better distinguish between the utility of the animal models for the purposes of our study and their relationship to specific human disease states. Particularly in the introduction, we stated that: “Genetic disruptions of several genes involved in synaptic functions related to psychiatric disorders, such as Arc and DISC1, lead to hypoactive mesofrontal dopaminergic input in mice (Niwa, Kamiya et al. 2010, Niwa, Jaaro-Peled et al. 2013, Fromer, Pocklington et al. 2014, Purcell, Moran et al. 2014, Wen, Nguyen et al. 2014, Manago, Mereu et al. 2016). Although there are many differences between these mouse lines and specific human disease states, these mice offer opportunities to test whether genetic deficits in frontal cortex function can be reversed through circuit interventions.”

      5) Some experiments are missing proper controls, e.g., Figure 3g-I where a WT mouse should be used as a positive control.

      The goal of this experimental design (Fig 3g-i) was to evaluate the potential effects of chemogenetic VTA stimulation in the Arc-/- mice. We used Arc-/- mice with mCherry injections to control for the potential effects of CNO administration. While WT mice could be used to determine if adolescent VTA stimulation would lead to long-lasting enhancement of VTA-to-Cortical transmission, this wouldn’t necessarily be a positive control for our experiments, but rather a separate line of inquiry. As dopamine’s effects often display an inverted-U dose-response curve (Vijayraghavan, Wang et al. 2007, Floresco 2013), evaluating the effects adolescent VTA stimulation in the absence of underlying dopamine deficiency could be an interesting future research direction. We have added this discussion into the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      1) Did the SSFO stimulation of the TH+ axons in PFC during adolescence lead to the same long-term change in DA bouton number the authors saw with DREADDs?

      We did not examine the degree of bouton growth in the SSFO cohort, which is a limitation of this study. Accurate quantification of dopamine boutons requires the co-injection of another AAV vector encoding Synaptophysin-GFP to label the boutons. Because we used light to directly stimulate SSFO-labeled dopaminergic axons in the frontal cortex, we were concerned that co-injecting another AAV vector may dilute SSFO-labeling of axons and reduce the efficacy of optogenetic stimulation. Given the behavioral benefits we observed, we would expect an increase in bouton density after optogenetic stimulation. A systematic optimization of viral co-labeling and optogenetic stimulation protocols will facilitate examination of the impact of SSFO stimulation at the structural level in future studies. We have added a discussion of the limitation of this study in the revised manuscript.

      2) The DISC1 section is far less detailed than the Arc section, and it was not completely clear to me that the mechanisms of dysfunction and rescue were the same in these mice compared with the Arc mice. For example, there was no mention of DA bouton density or the patterned firing of the PFC neurons at the time of decision making.

      The initial motivation of this study was to test if adolescent dopamine stimulation can rescue the deficits in the mesofrontal dopaminergic circuit and cognitive function of Arc-/- mice, which were identified in our previous studies (Manago, Mereu et al. 2016). We first conducted multiple levels of analyses including viral tracing, in vivo calcium imaging, and behavioral tests to establish the coherent impacts of adolescent dopamine neuron stimulation on circuits and behaviors. We then examined a range of stimulation protocols to assess the efficacy requirements for cognitive improvement, which is our primary goal. Finally, we included DISC1 mice in our study to test if adolescent dopamine stimulation can also reverse the cognitive deficit in another genetic model for mesofrontal dopamine deficiency. By demonstrating a similar cognitive recuse effect of adolescent VTA stimulation in an independent mouse model, this study provides a foundation for future research to compare the detailed cellular mechanisms that underlie the functional rescue in different genetic models. We have added the discussion of the scope and limitation of this study to the revised manuscript.

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer 1:

      The main weaknesses of the paper are a lack of significance in key findings, and relatedly, concluding effects from insignificant findings. Additional elements could be improved to help strengthen this overall well-rounded and intriguing set of results.

      In the original manuscript, we reported that chemogenetic silencing of POA-social neurons (previously called POA-iso neurons; more details on rationale for renaming below in our responses to reviewer recommendations) tended to reduce mounting in both single-housed female and single-housed male mice, although these effects were non-significant. We have added samples to both datasets and now report that chemogenetic silencing of POA-social neurons significantly reduces the proportion of trials with mounting in both sexes (Fig. 2C and Fig. 6G). 

      We have also included new analyses to test whether optogenetic activation of POAsocial neurons in group-housed females promotes social investigation (in addition to USV production, as reported in the original manuscript). We now report that optogenetic activation of POA-social neurons significantly increases the probability of social investigation (Fig. 4E-F) and significantly increases the duration of social investigation bouts (Fig. 4G). 

      Additional recommendations from the reviewer are addressed in detail below. Thank you for your critical and insightful feedback.

      Reviewer 2:

      All the activity-dependent labeling experiments with TRAP mice, including the subsequent neural activity manipulation experiments (Figures 2, 3, 4, 5E-F), were conducted by labeling neurons only in socially isolated animals, not group-housed animals. The authors labeled neurons after 30-minute social interactions, raising the possibility that the labeled neurons simply represent a "social interaction/behavior population" (mediating mounting and USVs in females and males) rather than a set of neurons specific to social isolation.

      I strongly recommend including experimental groups that involve labeling neurons after 30minute social interactions in group-housed female or male mice and inhibit TRAPed neurons after social isolation or activate TRAPed neurons after group housing. If manipulating the grouphoused TRAP neurons has similar effects to manipulating the isolated TRAP neurons, it would suggest the current labeling paradigm is not isolating neurons specific to the effect of social isolation per se. Rather, the neurons may mediate more general social interaction or motivationrelated activities. Given the known role of POA in male mating behavior, a group-housed TRAP experiment in males with a female visitor is especially important for understanding the selectivity of the labeled cells.

      Without proper controls, referring to the labeled neurons as "POAiso" neurons is potentially misleading. The data thus far suggests these neurons may predominantly reflect a "POA social behavior" population rather than a set of cells distinctly responsive to isolated housing.

      We agree with the reviewer that the POA neurons we are studying regulate the production of social behaviors in females and males, rather than representing a set of cells distinctly responsive to single housing. To more clearly reflect our thinking, we have changed the name of the neurons from “POA-iso neurons” to “POA-social neurons”. Thank you for this helpful criticism.

      Our Fos data are consistent with the idea that the POA may regulate social behaviors in group-housed females (not just single-housed females). Namely, we found that counts of Fospositive POA neurons are significantly related to rates of social investigation (p = 0.01) and tend to be related to USV rates (p = 0.05) in group-housed females that engaged in same-sex interactions (Fig. S1C). We now include two new sets of experiments aimed at further testing the idea this idea. 

      First, we include 2 control groups in which TRAPing sessions were performed in grouphoused females following same-sex interactions. We find that chemogenetic silencing of grouphoused-TRAPed POA neurons fails to reduce social behaviors in females that are subsequently single-housed and given a same-sex social interaction (Fig. 5A-D), and that optogenetic activation of group-housed-TRAPed POA neurons fails to promote female social behavior (Fig. 5E-H). At face value, these findings do not support the idea that the POA contains neurons that regulate social behaviors in group-housed females.

      However, one important caveat is that group-housed females engage in low rates of social behaviors (low investigation time, no mounting, and few USVs), and thus TRAP-based labeling may not work efficaciously in these mice. There may be POA neurons that regulate social behaviors in group-housed females but that do not upregulate Fos following production of relatively low rates of social behaviors. To test this idea, we also include females in which POA neurons are chemogenetically silenced using a viral strategy that does not depend on activitydependent labeling. In this new experiment, we report that silencing of POA neurons significantly reduces USV production in group-housed females (Fig. 5J-L) and significantly reduces social investigation, mounting, and USV production when these same females are retested following single-housing (Fig. 5M-O). Together, these experiments suggest that the POA may regulate the production of social behaviors during same-sex interactions in group-housed females, but that these effects may be difficult to detect in some cases given the low rates at which group-housed females engage in social behaviors during same-sex interactions relative to single-housed females.

      Finally, we want to highlight an additional new dataset that supports the idea that POAsocial neurons regulate social behaviors, rather than encoding the “state” of social isolation. We now include a control group for the chemogenetic silencing of female POA-social neurons, in which females were single-housed but were not given a social interaction prior to 4-OHT treatment (N = 5 non-social controls). Rates of social behaviors were subsequently unaffected following CNO delivery in these females (Fig. S2D-G). These new data support the conclusion that POA-social neurons regulate the production of social behaviors, rather than encoding the state of social isolation. 

      Reviewer 3:

      While the authors should be commended for performing and reporting multiple circuit perturbation experiments (e.g., chemogenetics, ablation), the conflicting effects on behavior are hard to interpret without additional experiments. For example, chemogenetic silencing of the POA neurons (using DREADDs) attenuated all three behavioral measures but the ablation of the same POA neurons (using CASPACE) decreased mounting duration without impacting social investigation or USV production. Similarly, optogenetic activation of POA neurons was sufficient to generate USV production as reported in earlier studies but mounting or social investigation remained unaffected. 

      Do these discrepancies arise due to the efficiency differences between DREADD-mediated silencing vs. Casp3 ablation? Or does the chemogenetic result reflect off-manifold effects on downstream circuitry whereas a more permanent ablation strategy allows other brain regions to compensate due to redundancy? It is important to resolve whether these arise due to technical reasons or whether these reflect the underlying (perhaps messy) logic of neural circuitry. Therefore, while it is clear that POA neurons likely contribute to multiple behavioral readouts of social isolation, understanding their exact roles in any greater detail will require further experiments.

      We have added new analyses to consider the possibility that optogenetic activation of female POA-social neurons promotes social investigation. In the original manuscript, we analyzed the duration of social investigation bouts in POA-social-ChR2 females according to whether they overlapped with laser stimulation or whether they did not overlap. We realized that we made an error in this first analysis and inadvertently included social investigation bouts that occurred during the first 5 minutes of the social sessions, prior to any laser stimulation. Because these earlier bouts tend to be longer duration than later bouts, this mistake washed out the effect of laser stimulation on social bout duration. After correcting that error, we now report that optogenetic activation of female POA-social neurons lengthens social investigation bout duration (Fig. 4G). Inspired by this interesting finding, we also included analyses of the probability of social investigation following laser stimulation (Fig. 4E-F; excluding laser stimulations that were preceded by social investigation in the pre-laser baseline period). These analyses support the conclusion that optogenetic activation of POA-social neurons promotes both USV production and social investigation in group-housed females.  

      The majority of the females that we used in our TRAP2-based ablation experiments were heterozygous for TRAP2 (N = 11 of 15 POA-social-caspase subjects were TRAP2;Ai14 females), whereas all females used in our chemogenetic silencing experiments were homozygous for TRAP2. To test whether a more effective ablation of POA-social neurons might drive decreases in social investigation and USV production, we set up additional TRAP2 homozygous POA-social-caspase females and directly compare the effects of ablation between the two genotypes (Fig. S3; N = 11 hets in total and N = 9 homozygotes in total). These experiments revealed that effects on mounting were more pronounced following POA-social ablation in TRAP2 homozygotes vs. heterozygotes, but that neither group exhibited decreased social investigation or USV production following 4-OHT treatment.

      To ask whether caspase-mediated ablation in TRAP2 homozygotes was effective in eliminating neural activity associated with social behaviors in females, we performed Fos immunostaining in a subset of the POA-social-caspase TRAP2 homozygotes following a samesex interaction. We found that POA Fos expression was robustly reduced in these females relative to control group-housed and control single-housed females that also engaged in samesex interactions, down to levels seen in group-housed and single-housed females that did not engage in a social interaction (comparison shown in Fig. S3D; control female data same as in Fig. 1). Moreover, the remaining POA Fos in these TRAP2 homozygotes was no longer positively correlated to social investigation or USV production (Fig. S3E-F). Together, these findings lead us to favor the interpretation suggested by the reviewer below, that permanent ablation of POA-social neurons leads to compensation from other brain regions due to redundancy. In addition, our finding that optogenetic activation of POA-social neurons promotes both USV production and social investigation supports the idea that POA-social neurons directly regulate these behaviors. We agree with the reviewer that additional work is needed to understand the complex sex- and context-dependent role played by the POA in the regulation of mouse social behaviors.

      Recommendations for the Authors:

      Reviewer 1 Recommendations:

      (1) The largest issue is that many of the stated "key" behavioral findings are not statistically significant.

      (1a) Figure 2C is not significant and Figure 5G is not significant

      We have added N = 5 POA-social-hM4Di females, N = 3 POA-social-hM4Di males, and N = 3 POA-social-GFP males to the dataset. The decrease in mounting following chemogenetic silencing of POA-social neurons is now statistically significant in both sexes (p < 0.05 for both; see current Figs. 2C and 6G). We also simplified our statistical analysis of mounting in these experiments to consider the proportion of trials with and without resident-initiated mounting on saline vs. CNO days, using McNemar’s test for paired proportions. 

      (1b) Mounting graphs are completely omitted in Figure 4. 

      Given that mounting was only observed infrequently in POA-social-ChR2 females, we simply report this information in the Results text (lines 382-388). In our prior summary of the mounting results, we reported that mounting was observed in a total of 3 trials from 2 females, but we inadvertently included information from a duplicate trial from one of the POA-socialChR2 females in this summary (all other analyses of the POA-social-ChR2 females included one trial per female). We have corrected that error and now report that we observed mounting following laser stimulation in 1 trial from 1 POA-social-ChR2 female. We have expanded our consideration of potential effects of optogenetic activation of POA-social neurons on social investigation and include these new analyses as part of Figure 4 (Fig. 4E-G), following the existing analyses of USV production.

      (1c) Figure 3C shows a reduction of mounting following the ablation of POA (although no stats on the graph to denote significance), but this ablation approach can't resolve whether POA is required to encode the state produced by the short period of isolation, and/or whether it needs to be online at test.

      We have now added an asterisk in Fig. 3C to denote a p value less than 0.05. Thank you for catching our oversight.

      We designed our activity-dependent labeling experiments to TRAP and express viruses in POA neurons that increase their activity in conjunction with the production of social behaviors in single-housed females. We believe our findings our most consistent with the conclusion that these neurons regulate the production of social behaviors, rather than encoding the state of social isolation, and we have renamed these neurons as “POA-social” neurons to better reflect our thinking.

      We also now include control experiments (albeit chemogenetic inhibition, not caspase ablation) in which the TRAP2 strategy is used to express hM4Di in the POA of single-housed females that do not experience a social interaction prior to 4-OHT delivery (non-social controls, Fig. S2D-G). We report that chemogenetic inhibition of these neurons does not decrease social behavior in single-housed females during a subsequent same-sex interaction (p > 0.05 for saline vs. CNO rates of social investigation, mounting, and USVs). These additional findings support the idea that the activity of POA-social neurons is related to the production of social behaviors rather than to the state of social isolation. 

      The reviewer is correct that our ablation approach cannot resolve the question of whether POA-social neuronal activity is required online during testing, but our reversible chemogenetic inhibition experiments provide evidence that the activity of POA-social neurons is required online at the time of testing to regulate social behavior.

      (1d) A similar issue is seen regarding investigation (a general lack of significance with most of the LOF and GOF manipulations).

      As reported in the original manuscript, we find that chemogenetic inhibition of POAsocial neurons reduces social investigation in females, while caspase-mediated ablation of female POA-social neurons does not. Our original caspase dataset used mostly but not all TRAP2 heterozygous females (N = 11 TRAP2 heterozygotes (TRAP2;Ai14), generated by crossing TRAP2 mice with Ai14 mice, for the purpose of visualizing the absence of tdTomato labeling to estimate spread of the caspase virus; and N = 4 TRAP2 homozygotes). By adding to the TRAP2 homozygous caspase dataset and comparing the effects on female social behavior of ablation of POA-social neurons in TRAP2 heterozygous vs. TRAP2 homozygous females, we

      now provide evidence that the attenuation of mounting is more efficacious in TRAP2 homozygous females than in heterozygotes (Fig. S3B). Nonetheless, we fail to see effects on social investigation and USV production, even when caspase ablation of POA-social neurons is performed in TRAP2 homozygous females (Fig. S3A,C). 

      In spite of the lack of effect on these behaviors, we show that caspase-mediated ablation of POA-social neurons in TRAP2 homozygous females leads to a dramatic reduction in social interaction-induced Fos expression in the POA. POA Fos expression in these caspase females is reduced to the levels seen in control group-housed and single-housed females that are not given social interactions and are significantly lower than Fos expression in group-housed and single-housed females that are given a same-sex interaction (Fig. S3D). Moreover, the remaining POA Fos expression in the caspase females is no longer related to rates of social investigation (Fig. S3E), as is normally the case in group-housed and single-housed control females (Fig. S1C, left). Together, these data support the idea that some type of neuronal compensation outside of the POA is occurring following ablation of POA-social neurons, and this compensation permits normal levels of USV production and social investigation.

      As in the original manuscript, we report that chemogenetic inhibition of POA-social neurons in male mice reduces mounting but does not reduce social investigation (or USV production). We now include quantification of social behaviors produced by male and female POA-social-hM4Di mice in the TRAPing sessions that preceded 4-OHT delivery (Fig. S5). These measurements show that males spent significantly more time than females engaged in mounting, and we speculate that this bias in TRAPing session behavior might have led to a bias in TRAP-mediated viral labeling of male POA neurons that regulate mounting, at the expense of male POA neurons that regulate social investigation (or USV production).

      We have added new analyses to consider the possibility that optogenetic activation of female POA-social neurons promotes social investigation. In the original manuscript, we analyzed the duration of social investigation bouts in POA-social-ChR2 females according to whether they overlapped with laser stimulation or whether they did not overlap. We realized that we made an error in this first analysis and inadvertently included social investigation bouts that occurred during the first 5 minutes of the social sessions, prior to any laser stimulation. Because these earlier bouts tend to be longer duration than later bouts, this mistake washed out the effect of laser stimulation on social bout duration. After correcting that error, we now report that optogenetic activation of female POA-social neurons lengthens social investigation bout duration (Fig. 4G). Inspired by this encouraging finding, we also included analyses of the probability of social investigation following laser stimulation (Fig. 4E-F; excluding laser stimulations that were preceded by social investigation in the pre-laser baseline period). These analyses support the conclusion that optogenetic activation of POA-social neurons promotes both USV production and social investigation in group-housed females.

      (2) In Figure 1 and elsewhere, the authors use a Mann-Whitney U test, which should be used for non-parametric data, but in other places, they use statistical tests for normally distributed data. Why? How was the normality of distributions tested?

      We tested the normality of data distributions using the Shapiro-Wilk test. Parametric tests were used for analyses that contained normally distributed data, and non-parametric tests were used for analyses that contained non-normally distributed data. This information is included in the Methods (lines 997-1000), and full details of statistical analyses can be found in Table S1.

      (3) The method for "trapping" neurons that are part of the short-term isolation ensemble has some caveats that have not been adequately addressed. First, 4-OHT was administered after social interaction, but before 24 hours of isolation, making it unclear exactly WHAT is being trapped.

      i) Is it neurons that encode the recent 3-day iso experience? (seems unlikely, as this would have been hours after the end of that iso window)

      We now include a group of control females to directly test this possibility (Fig. S2D-G). These TRAP2 females were single-housed for 3 days but were not given a social interaction prior to 4-OHT treatment (N = 5 non-social controls). Presumably, POA neurons TRAPed in these females might encode the experience of short-term isolation. However, we found that chemogenetic inactivation of these TRAPed neurons during a subsequent same-sex interaction failed to decrease social behaviors in single-housed females (Fig. S2E-G; p > 0.05 for CNO vs. saline rates of social investigation, mounting, and USV production). These control experiments support the idea that we are TRAPing neurons whose activity is related to the production of social behaviors, and we have renamed the neurons as “POA-social” neurons to reflect this thinking.

      ii) Is it neurons that encode the recent behavior impacted by the 3-day iso? (this seems to be the goal, but the authors do not provide evidence that the time course of their injection is efficient enough to recruit the recently activated neurons, nor do they provide evidence that opening the trapping window directly after the behavior is better than directly before)

      We opted to perform IP injections of 4-OHT immediately following the behavior session, rather than behavior, due to concern that handling the mice and delivering IP injections prior to behavior sessions would stress the mice, leading to lower rates of social behaviors. The nonsocial female hM4Di experiments described above support the idea that we are TRAPing neurons related to the production of social behaviors, as the reviewer suggests. 

      iii) Is it trapping neurons active during the subsequent 24 hours of isolation? (seems possible, but this would mean that the authors are looking at a different population of neurons than they claim).

      If chemogenetic silencing of POA neurons that were TRAPed following 3-days of social isolation but in the absence of a social interaction (N = 5 non-social controls, Fig. S2D-G) does not alter social behaviors, there is no compelling reason to hypothesize that TRAPing POA neurons activated following the 24 hours of social isolation that follow a social interaction would do so. Moreover, in the original study characterizing the TRAP2 mice (DeNardo et al., 2019), the authors performed experiments to characterize the time course of TRAPing relative to 4-OHT treatment and concluded that the majority of TRAPing occurs within a 6-hour window centered around the 4-OHT injection.

      (4) Relatedly, the authors seem to find a fair bit of variability in their TRAP-mediated experiments. This begs the question - are the effects of their GOF and LOF approaches

      i) dependent on the iso-behaviors that were "trapped" for each animal (in other words, how does behavior at test 1 correlate with behavior at test 2)? 

      To test the reviewer’s idea, we compared rates of TRAPing session behaviors for the POA-social-hM4Di females to the subsequent effects of neuronal silencing on these behaviors (calculated as (CNO behavior – saline behavior). These correlations are shown in Fig. S2A-C and are all non-significant. We also include below for the reviewer the same types of correlations for the other datasets in our study (loss-of-function experiments: female POAsocial-caspase, male POA-social-hM4Di; and gain-of-function experiments: female POA-socialChR2).

      Author response image 1.

      The only loss-of-function experiment comparison in the above figure that reveals a negative and significant correlation is the mounting comparison for the POA-social-hM4Di males (time spent mounting during TRAPing session vs. (CNO time spent mounting -saline time spent mounting). This significant correlation likely reflects that fact that (1) no males mounted in the CNO session and (2) that mounting rates for individual males are relatively consistent over time (in comparison to female mounting, which is more variable; see Author response image 2 below of TRAPing session vs. saline mounting in male vs. female POA-social-hM4Di experiments). The correlation between TRAPing session and testing session mounting is significant for the POA-social-ChR2 females, but despite the significant correlation, we would want to see more instances of optogenetically-elicited mounting to make any claim about its relationship to TRAPing session behavior.

      Author response image 2.

      Nonetheless, we agree with the reviewer’s intuition that one would expect the effects of POA activity manipulations on different behaviors to scale with rates at which these behaviors were performed during the TRAPing session. We speculate that variability in the TRAPing process might have obscured such a relationship. There is inevitable variability in the exact body cavity placement of IP injections, which can affect drug absorption, and another point is that we delivered a fixed volume of 4-OHT (10 mg/mL 4-OHT in 150 uL filtered corn oil) to all mice in the study, regardless of their weight, which likely added variability in TRAPing efficacy from animal to animal. This detail was reported inaccurately in the Methods, and that error has been corrected (line 920). With regard to our male POA-social-hM4Di dataset, we find that these males spend more time mounting during their TRAPing sessions than female POA-socialhM4Di (Fig. S5; males also spent less time investigating and tended to produce fewer USVs than females), a fact that we hypothesize may have led to a bias toward TRAPing mountingrelated POA neurons in male subjects. In addition, however, the fact that male mice typically weigh more than females and would have received a slightly lower effective dosage of 4-OHT may also have contributed to the weaker effects on behavior in the male POA-social-hM4Di experiments relative to the female POA-social-hM4Di experiments.

      We also want to highlight that interpreting correlations for females between time spent mounting during the TRAPing session and time spent mounting during the test sessions can be complicated. For example, we see 2 cases in the female POA-social-hM4Di dataset in which the female did not mount in the TRAPing session, and then mounted on the saline day (12s and 10s total mounting for those 2 females) but not on the CNO day. One interpretation of the data from these 2 females is that mounting on the TRAPing day is not required to attenuate mounting on the later test days. However, female mounting behavior itself is variable, both across different females and across different tests of a given female, as noted above. If we consider all singlehoused females included in our dataset for which we quantified control behavioral data (i.e., behavior trials from unmanipulated females and TRAPing sessions from females that were later manipulated), we find that mounting is not observed in ~30% of the females (24 of 83). In ongoing behavioral experiments not included in this manuscript, we are investigating factors that regulate female mounting following single-housing. In that dataset, we also see little evidence that female mounting in one social interaction predicts mounting in a subsequent interaction

      (i.e., there don’t appear to stable “high mounters” and “low mounters” following single housing). Thus, the small number of cases in which females did not mount in the TRAPing session and then displayed mounting on the CNO only day are difficult to interpret. 

      Two additional considerations are that TRAPing may not be equally efficacious for POA neurons that regulate different behaviors, and that different behaviors may be differentially sensitive to perturbations of the POA. Previous elegant calcium imaging work has shown that different subsets of Esr1+ POA neurons exhibit activity that is “tuned” to specific behaviors (sniffing vs. mounting in males interacting with females; Yang et al., 2023). However, it is possible that these subsets of neurons display differential levels of Fos expression following the production of their preferred behavior and that some behavior-related subsets may thus be more easily TRAPed than others. It may also be the case that some behaviors are more easily disrupted by POA activity manipulations than others (e.g., perturbation in a smaller percentage of behavior-related POA neurons may be required to disrupt some behaviors relative to others). 

      Despite these caveats, we have two lines of evidence that the effects of chemogenetic silencing of POA-social neurons depends on the behaviors produced during the TRAPing sessions.

      (1) Social behavior is required during the TRAPing session to see subsequent effects on social behavior following chemogenetic silencing of TRAPed POA neurons. In control females that were single-housed but were not given a social interaction prior to 4OHT treatment, social behaviors are not reduced by chemogenetic silencing of TRAPed POA neurons (Figs. S2D-G).

      (2) To directly test whether mounting in the TRAPing session is required to see attenuation of mounting during subsequent chemogenetic silencing of POA-social neurons, we performed control experiments in which single-housed females interacted with a female visitor that was placed under a cup during the TRAPing session prior to 4-OHT treatment. Mounting was not possible in this context, and we also found that females produced lower rates of USVs during the TRAPing session relative to single-housed females engaged in free social interaction. However, subject females spent more time engaged in social investigation of the visitor relative to single-housed females engaged in free social interactions (see Author response image 3 below).

      Author response image 3.

      Unfortunately, none of the experimental females in this cohort displayed mounting in the CNO or saline sessions. Given that we could use this dataset to address the intended question, we did not include it in the manuscript. However, it is quite interesting that female subjects displayed higher than normal social investigation and lower than normal USV production in their TRAPing sessions (relative to single-housed females engaged in free interactions), and subsequently, chemogenetic inhibition of TRAPed POA neurons decreased social investigation but did not decrease USV production (Author response image 4 below). 

      Author response image 4.

      Together, we think our data support the idea that the POA neurons that are TRAPed are related to the social behaviors performed by the animals, but these relationships may be complex and difficult to detect from comparisons across animals within a single experimental group.

      And/or are they

      ii) influenced by the spread or amount of virus for each animal? These correlations could help shed light on what exactly is being trapped - is it specific behaviors or is it the "state" of shortterm isolation?

      Our control experiments with females that were single-housed but did not receive a social interaction prior to 4-OHT treatment provide evidence that the production of social behaviors is required to see subsequent effects on behavior following chemogenetic inhibition of TRAPed POA neurons (Figs. S2D-G).

      The same volume of virus was injected across all activity manipulation experiments (200 nL). Because of the trajectory of our POA viral injections (performed at a slight rostral angle relative to vertical), we did sometimes see viral labeling that spread into the AH caudal to the POA. For this reason, we included the AH TRAPed control group (Fig. 2), to rule out the possibility that viral spread into the AH could account for the effects of chemogenetic silencing of POA-social neurons on female social behaviors. Also because of the injection angle used, we don’t see substantial viral spread rostral to our injection coordinates. In short, there isn’t systematic variability in the targeting or spread of our POA viral injections that can account for variability in the effects on USV production and social investigation of our LOF and GOF manipulations (female hM4Di and female ChR2 experiments).

      In older lesion studies in male rodents and birds, there is some support for the idea that rostral vs. caudal POA neurons differentially regulate appetitive vs. consummatory sexual behaviors (as reviewed in Balthazart and Ball, 2007). However, all of our viral injections were placed in what that review paper would have considered ‘caudal’ POA. We also note that more recent imaging studies have reported that subsets of POA neurons are differentially tuned to male sniffing vs. male mounting (Yang et al.,2023), and these subsets must be relatively co-localized given that they are imaged in the same field of view. Whether distinct subsets of POA neurons regulate the production of different female social behaviors, and if so, how these subsets are localized within the POA, remains an important question for future study.

      (5) The authors label their region of interest as the "POA" but images throughout (e.g. their fos image, Figure 1E), look more like the MPO. Why label it POA?

      The POA neurons in our study are found in a band that spans the medial POA, as well as a bit of the lateral POA. To avoid over-specifying, we call this region the POA more generally.

      (6) In all the experiments, mice are isolated and then re-group housed with siblings. Do all the siblings in the group belong to the same experimental group, or are siblings naïve? This may be critical to help determine whether some of the effects observed may be "group" effects.

      In general, multiple (although not always all) mice in a cage belonged to the same experimental group. In our inhibitory DREADDs experiments, it is unclear how that could drive our observed effects on behavior, given that home cage behavior would only be expected to differ for a given mouse in the time period following their CNO session. 

      For the female POA-social-caspase mice, we cannot rule out the possibility that their home cage behaviors differed in the time period following 4-OHT treatment and re-grouphousing and prior to post-4-OHT behavior measurements. However, given that the only social behavior affected by ablation of POA-social neurons was mounting, and that rates of mounting would be expected to be very low in group-housed females within home cages, it is unclear how our experimental result could be attributed to group effects.

      If by “group” effects the reviewer means “litter” effects, we include a plot below that shows the CNO vs. saline behaviors for the POA-social-hM4Di females, separated by cage ID. There is no evidence that the effects of chemogenetic silencing of POA-social-hM4Di females are being driven by only certain cages (only social investigation and USVs are shown, because mounting was uniformly low (1 of 17 females mounted) in the CNO session).

      Author response image 5.

      (7) For chemogenetic experiments, the authors state that CNO and Saline were given in a counterbalanced order (eg line 189). Did the authors see any order effects?

      We did not see order effects, and we can include plots of those data below for the female and male POA-social-hM4Di groups, with mice plotted according to which treatment they received first.

      Author response image 6.

      (8) In the control experiments in Figure 2 where VMH or AH are chemogenetically silenced, it isn't clear whether these groups include mice that were subjected to 3 days of isolation. Please clarify.

      Yes, these female groups were also subjected to 3 days of isolation (first prior to the TRAPing session, and for a second time prior to the onset of the CNO/saline testing sessions). That information has been clarified in the Results section (line 214) and in the Methods (lines 935-938).

      (9) Line 312. The title for this section, "POA neurons increase their activity....." is somewhat misleading. It sounds like the authors imaged trapped neurons. I think what they mean is that more POA neurons are activated following opposite-sex interactions with males.

      Thanks for this catch. We have modified the section title, as well as the title of the first results sub-section.

      (10) Figure 5A, right panels. The authors fail to find an increase in the investigation of male-male pairs following the short-term isolation of one. This contrasts with the main finding in Matthews et al., 2016 Cell, where short periods of isolation are said to promote pro-social behaviors. The authors could comment on this discrepancy in their discussion (eg difference in testing apparatus/test type? Difference in the number of days of isolation? etc.).

      In current Fig. 6A, there is no significant interaction between the two main effects, but each main effect is significant: single-housed males spend more time investigating partners than group-housed males, and males spend more time investigating female partners than male partners. The significant main effect of housing condition is consistent with the findings of Matthews et al., 2016 and is included within the Results (lines 486-492). 

      (11) Figure 5F, the authors seem to have a main effect of virus (more overall investigation in dreadds mice). Nothing about this is addressed.

      We sometimes see differences in social behavior between cohorts of males when they are tested at different times and, correspondingly, with different groups of female social partners. Our POA-social-hM4Di and POA-social-GFP males were set-up and tested at largely non-overlapping times. We have added a brief note to the Results section to include this information (lines 535-539).

      Reviewer 2 Recommendations:

      (1) (C)ritical control experiments are missing to support this claim (that a population of preoptic hypothalamic neurons contribute to the effects of short-term social isolation on the social behaviors of female mice).  

      (1a) All the activity-dependent labeling experiments with TRAP mice, including the subsequent neural activity manipulation experiments (Figures 2, 3, 4, 5E-F), were conducted by labeling neurons only in socially isolated animals, not group-housed animals. The authors labeled neurons after 30-minute social interactions, raising the possibility that the labeled neurons simply represent a "social interaction/behavior population" (mediating mounting and USVs in females and males) rather than a set of neurons specific to social isolation behaviors of mice)… The data thus far suggests these neurons may predominantly reflect a "POA social behavior" population rather than a set of cells distinctly responsive to isolated housing.

      We agree with the reviewer that the POA neurons we are studying regulate the production of social behaviors in females and males, rather than representing a set of cells distinctly responsive to single housing. To more clearly reflect our thinking, we have changed the name of the neurons from “POA-iso neurons” to “POA-social neurons”. Thank you for this helpful criticism.

      Our Fos data are consistent with the idea that the POA may regulate social behaviors in group-housed females (not just single-housed females). Namely, we found that counts of Fospositive POA neurons are significantly related to rates of social investigation (p = 0.01) and tend to be related to USV rates (p = 0.05) in group-housed females that engaged in same-sex interactions (Fig. S1C). We now include two new sets of experiments aimed at further testing the idea this idea. 

      First, we include 2 control groups in which TRAPing sessions were performed in grouphoused females following same-sex interactions. We find that chemogenetic silencing of these group-housed-TRAPed POA neurons fails to reduce social behaviors in females that are subsequently single-housed and given a same-sex social interaction (Fig. 5A-D; GH-TRAPed POA hM4Di females), and that optogenetic activation of group-housed-TRAPed POA neurons fails to promote female social behavior (Fig. 5E-H; GH-TRAPed POA ChR2 females). At face value, these findings do not support the idea that the POA contains neurons that regulate social behaviors in group-housed females.

      However, one important caveat is that group-housed females engage in low rates of social behaviors (low investigation time, no mounting, and few USVs), and thus TRAP-based labeling may not work efficaciously in these mice. There may be POA neurons that regulate social behaviors in group-housed females but that do not upregulate Fos following production of relatively low rates of social behaviors. To test this idea, we also include females in which POA neurons are chemogenetically silenced using a viral strategy that does not depend on activitydependent labeling. In this new experiment, we report that silencing of POA neurons significantly reduces USV production in group-housed females (Fig. 5J-L) and significantly reduces social investigation, mounting, and USV production when these same females are retested following single-housing (Fig. 5M-O).

      (2) Please add strain background information of subject animals in the methods.

      This information has been added to the Animals section within the Methods (lines 788802).

      Responses to Reviewer 3 Recommendations:

      (1a) (T)he conflicting effects on behavior are hard to interpret without additional experiments….Similarly, optogenetic activation of POA neurons was sufficient to generate USV production as reported in earlier studies but mounting or social investigation remained unaffected. 

      We have added new analyses to consider the possibility that optogenetic activation of female POA-social neurons promotes social investigation. In the original manuscript, we analyzed the duration of social investigation bouts in POA-social-ChR2 females according to whether they overlapped with laser stimulation or whether they did not overlap. We realized that we made an error in this first analysis and inadvertently included social investigation bouts that occurred during the first 5 minutes of the social sessions, prior to any laser stimulation. Because these earlier bouts tend to be longer duration than later bouts, this mistake washed out the effect of laser stimulation on social bout duration. After correcting that error, we now report that optogenetic activation of female POA-social neurons lengthens social investigation bout duration (Fig. 4G). Inspired by this interesting finding, we also included analyses of the probability of social investigation following laser stimulation (Fig. 4E-F; excluding laser stimulations that were preceded by social investigation in the pre-laser baseline period). These analyses support the conclusion that optogenetic activation of POA-social neurons promotes both USV production and social investigation in group-housed females.

      (1b) Do these discrepancies (between hM4Di and caspase) arise due to the efficiency differences between DREADD-mediated silencing vs. Casp3 ablation? Or does the chemogenetic result reflect off-manifold effects on downstream circuitry whereas a more permanent ablation strategy allows other brain regions to compensate due to redundancy? It is important to resolve whether these arise due to technical reasons or whether these reflect the underlying (perhaps messy) logic of neural circuitry.  

      The possibility that the difference in effects on behavior between chemogenetic silencing and caspase ablation at face value seems inconsistent with the findings of previous experiments, in which ablation of large numbers of POA neurons failed to reduce USV production in male mice (POA lesions in Bean et al., 1981; ablation of VGAT+ POA neurons by Gao et al., 2018). These findings stand in contrast to those using chemogenetic silencing of large numbers of POA neurons, which report reduced USV production in male mice (VGAT+/Esr1+ in Karigo et al., 2021; Esr1+ in Chen et al., 2021).

      However, it is the case that the majority of the females that we used in our TRAP2-based ablation experiments were heterozygous for TRAP2 (N = 11 of 15 POA-social-caspase subjects were TRAP2;Ai14 females), whereas all females used in our chemogenetic silencing experiments were homozygous for TRAP2. To test whether a more effective ablation of POAsocial neurons might drive decreases in social investigation and USV production, we set up additional TRAP2 homozygous POA-social-caspase females and directly compare the effects of ablation between the two genotypes (Fig. S3; N = 11 hets in total and N = 9 homozygotes in total). These experiments revealed that effects on mounting were more pronounced following POA-social ablation in TRAP2 homozygotes vs. heterozygotes, but that neither group exhibited decreased social investigation or USV production following 4-OHT treatment.

      To ask whether caspase-mediated ablation in TRAP2 homozygotes was effective in eliminating neural activity associated with social behaviors in females, we performed Fos immunostaining in a subset of the POA-social-caspase TRAP2 homozygotes following a samesex interaction. We found that POA Fos expression was robustly reduced in these females relative to control group-housed and control single-housed females that also engaged in samesex interactions, down to levels seen in group-housed and single-housed females that did not engage in a social interaction (comparison shown in Fig. S3D; control female data same as in Fig. 1). Moreover, the remaining POA Fos in these TRAP2 homozygotes was no longer positively correlated to social investigation or USV production (Fig. S3E-F). Together, these findings lead us to favor the interpretation suggested by the reviewer below, that permanent ablation of POA-social neurons leads to compensation from other brain regions due to redundancy.

      Given the negative results above, we favor this possibility and indicate so in our Discussion. In addition, our finding that optogenetic activation of POA-social neurons promotes both USV production and social investigation supports the idea that POA-social neurons directly regulate these behaviors. We agree with the reviewer that additional work is needed to understand the complex sex- and context-dependent role played by the POA in the regulation of mouse social behaviors.

      (2) L 49: Please define Mesolimbic circuitry the first time it is mentioned.

      We have added a definition (lines 52-53).

      (3) L 210: In Figure 2C, the mounting duration baseline (saline) distribution seems lower than the same experimental baseline in Figures 1C and 3C. Does this reflect natural variability in the behavioral assay and might this be mitigated by additional sampling of animals?

      Yes, there is substantial variability in the display of mounting behavior by single-housed females, including in the proportion of trials with mounting as well as in the total duration of mounting. In the revised manuscript, we have simplified our analysis of mounting in our TRAPbased experiments to quantify the proportion of trials with mounting, rather than considering the total time spent mounting. After adding N = 5 additional females to the POA-social-hM4Di dataset, we now report a statistically significant decrease in the proportion of trials with mounting following chemogenetic silencing of POA-social neurons (Fig. 2C; McNemar’s test for paired proportions). 

      (4) L 310: The authors claim that "These findings suggest that a subset of POAiso neurons overlap with GABAergic, PAG-projecting POA neurons that have been demonstrated in previous work to promote USVs via disinhibition of excitatory PAG neurons important to USV production (Chen et al., 2021; Michael et al., 2020)." I think the data reported suggests the opposite since only 18.3% of all POA->PAG neurons are cFos+. Perhaps better rephrased as "A subset (18.3%) of POA->PAG neurons are labelled by cFos and that is sufficient to drive the production of USVs". Is it surprising?

      We modified the phrasing (lines 468-469), but a bit differently than suggested above, because although we suspect that optogenetic activation of the PAG-projecting neurons within the larger population of POA-social neurons is responsible for eliciting USV production, we did not technically demonstrate this to be the case in the current dataset. 

      We do find it surprising that so few (only ~20%) of PAG-projecting POA neurons upregulate Fos following female-female interactions marked by high rates of USV production. Even though optogenetic activation of PAG-projecting POA neurons elicits USV production, our finding suggests that the majority of PAG-projecting POA neurons may not play a role in regulating vocalization. In future work, it may be useful to apply an intersectional approach to further understand how the POA regulates USV production (for example, measure or manipulate activity selectively in projection-defined subsets of POA-social neurons).

      (5) Given the considerable prior evidence of POA->PAG circuit in promoting USVs, it is hard to understand why chemogenetic inactivation of POA neurons in males affects mounting but not USV production (Figures 5F-H). Any potential explanation for this discrepancy?

      We have two ideas about this surprising result. First, we examined the TRAPing session social behaviors of female and male POA-social-hM4Di mice. We found that male POA-socialhM4Di mice spent more time than female subjects mounting during the TRAPing sessions, and conversely, males spent less time investigating visitors and tended to produce fewer USVs than female subjects (Fig. S5). Given that our labeling method is activity-dependent, one possibility is that this bias in behavior is reflected in a bias toward labeling of POA neurons related to mounting.  

      Second, each mouse in the TRAP2-based hM4Di datasets received an IP injection of the same amount of 4-OHT (150 nL of 10 mg/mL 4-OHT in filtered corn oil) not adjusted for weight of the mouse. This information was not reported accurately in the Methods, and we have adjusted that section accordingly (line 920). As a result, because male mice typically weigh more than females and would have received a lower effective dosage of 4-OHT, another possibility is that TRAPing in males was less efficient than in females and accounts for the less complete effects on social behaviors. We have added language to the Results to discuss these possibilities (lines 540-560).

      (6) L 472: Typo. "we found that short-term isolation exerts more robust on the effects of male behavior during subsequent interactions with females than during interactions with males."

      Thank you for catching this mistake.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this study, the authors address whether the dorsal nucleus of the inferior colliculus (DCIC) in mice encodes sound source location within the front horizontal plane (i.e., azimuth). They do this using volumetric two-photon Ca2+ imaging and high-density silicon probes (Neuropixels) to collect single-unit data. Such recordings are beneficial because they allow large populations of simultaneous neural data to be collected. Their main results and the claims about those results are the following:

      (1) DCIC single-unit responses have high trial-to-trial variability (i.e., neural noise);

      (2) approximately 32% to 40% of DCIC single units have responses that are sensitive tosound source azimuth;

      (3) single-trial population responses (i.e., the joint response across all sampled single unitsin an animal) encode sound source azimuth "effectively" (as stated in title) in that localization decoding error matches average mouse discrimination thresholds;

      (4) DCIC can encode sound source azimuth in a similar format to that in the central nucleusof the inferior colliculus (as stated in Abstract);

      (5) evidence of noise correlation between pairs of neurons exists;

      and 6) noise correlations between responses of neurons help reduce population decoding error.

      While simultaneous recordings are not necessary to demonstrate results #1, #2, and #4, they are necessary to demonstrate results #3, #5, and #6.

      Strengths:

      - Important research question to all researchers interested in sensory coding in the nervous system.

      - State-of-the-art data collection: volumetric two-photon Ca2+ imaging and extracellularrecording using high-density probes. Large neuronal data sets.

      - Confirmation of imaging results (lower temporal resolution) with more traditionalmicroelectrode results (higher temporal resolution).

      - Clear and appropriate explanation of surgical and electrophysiological methods. I cannot comment on the appropriateness of the imaging methods.

      Strength of evidence for claims of the study:

      (1) DCIC single-unit responses have high trial-to-trial variability - The authors' data clearlyshows this.

      (2) Approximately 32% to 40% of DCIC single units have responses that are sensitive tosound source azimuth - The sensitivity of each neuron's response to sound source azimuth was tested with a Kruskal-Wallis test, which is appropriate since response distributions were not normal. Using this statistical test, only 8% of neurons (median for imaging data) were found to be sensitive to azimuth, and the authors noted this was not significantly different than the false positive rate. The Kruskal-Wallis test was not performed on electrophysiological data. The authors suggested that low numbers of azimuth-sensitive units resulting from the statistical analysis may be due to the combination of high neural noise and relatively low number of trials, which would reduce statistical power of the test. This may be true, but if single-unit responses were moderately or strongly sensitive to azimuth, one would expect them to pass the test even with relatively low statistical power. At best, if their statistical test missed some azimuthsensitive units, they were likely only weakly sensitive to azimuth. The authors went on to perform a second test of azimuth sensitivity-a chi-squared test-and found 32% (imaging) and 40% (e-phys) of single units to have statistically significant sensitivity. This feels a bit like fishing for a lower p-value. The Kruskal-Wallis test should have been left as the only analysis. Moreover, the use of a chi-squared test is questionable because it is meant to be used between two categorical variables, and neural response had to be binned before applying the test.

      The determination of what is a physiologically relevant “moderate or strong azimuth sensitivity” is not trivial, particularly when comparing tuning across different relays of the auditory pathway like the CNIC, auditory cortex, or in our case DCIC, where physiologically relevant azimuth sensitivities might be different. This is likely the reason why azimuth sensitivity has been defined in diverse ways across the bibliography (see Groh, Kelly & Underhill, 2003 for an early discussion of this issue). These diverse approaches include reaching a certain percentage of maximal response modulation, like used by Day et al. (2012, 2015, 2016) in CNIC, and ANOVA tests, like used by Panniello et al. (2018) and Groh, Kelly & Underhill (2003) in auditory cortex and IC respectively. Moreover, the influence of response variability and biases in response distribution estimation due to limited sampling has not been usually accounted for in the determination of azimuth sensitivity.

      As Reviewer #1 points out, in our study we used an appropriate ANOVA test (KruskalWallis) as a starting point to study response sensitivity to stimulus azimuth at DCIC. Please note that the alpha = 0.05 used for this test is not based on experimental evidence about physiologically relevant azimuth sensitivity but instead is an arbitrary p-value threshold. Using this test on the electrophysiological data, we found that ~ 21% of the simultaneously recorded single units reached significance (n = 4 mice). Nevertheless these percentages, in our small sample size (n = 4) were not significantly different from our false positive detection rate (p = 0.0625, Mann-Whitney, See Author response image 1 below).  In consequence, for both our imaging (Fig. 3C) and electrophysiological data, we could not ascertain if the percentage of neurons reaching significance in these ANOVA tests were indeed meaningfully sensitive to azimuth or this was due to chance. 

      Author response image 1.

      Percentage of the neuropixels recorded DCIC single units across mice that showed significant median response tuning, compared to false positive detection rate (α = 0.05, chance level).

      We reasoned that the observed markedly variable responses from DCIC units, which frequently failed to respond in many trials (Fig. 3D, 4A), in combination with the limited number of trial repetitions we could collect, results in under-sampled response distribution estimations. This under-sampling can bias the determination of stochastic dominance across azimuth response samples in Kruskal-Wallis tests. We would like to highlight that we decided not to implement resampling strategies to artificially increase the azimuth response sample sizes with “virtual trials”, in order to avoid “fishing for a smaller p-value”, when our collected samples might not accurately reflect the actual response population variability.

      As an alternative to hypothesis testing based on ranking and determining stochastic dominance of one or more azimuth response samples (Kruskal-Wallis test), we evaluated the overall statistical dependency to stimulus azimuth of the collected responses.  To do this we implement the Chi-square test by binning neuronal responses into categories. Binning responses into categories can reduce the influence of response variability to some extent, which constitutes an advantage of the Chi-square approach, but we note the important consideration that these response categories are arbitrary.

      Altogether, we acknowledge that our Chi-square approach to define azimuth sensitivity is not free of limitations and despite enabling the interrogation of azimuth sensitivity at DCIC, its interpretability might not extend to other brain regions like CNIC or auditory cortex. Nevertheless we hope the aforementioned arguments justify why the Kruskal-Wallis test simply could not “have been left as the only analysis”.

      (3) Single-trial population responses encode sound source azimuth "effectively" in that localization decoding error matches average mouse discrimination thresholds - If only one neuron in a population had responses that were sensitive to azimuth, we would expect that decoding azimuth from observation of that one neuron's response would perform better than chance. By observing the responses of more than one neuron (if more than one were sensitive to azimuth), we would expect performance to increase. The authors found that decoding from the whole population response was no better than chance. They argue (reasonably) that this is because of overfitting of the decoder modeltoo few trials used to fit too many parameters-and provide evidence from decoding combined with principal components analysis which suggests that overfitting is occurring. What is troubling is the performance of the decoder when using only a handful of "topranked" neurons (in terms of azimuth sensitivity) (Fig. 4F and G). Decoder performance seems to increase when going from one to two neurons, then decreases when going from two to three neurons, and doesn't get much better for more neurons than for one neuron alone. It seems likely there is more information about azimuth in the population response, but decoder performance is not able to capture it because spike count distributions in the decoder model are not being accurately estimated due to too few stimulus trials (14, on average). In other words, it seems likely that decoder performance is underestimating the ability of the DCIC population to encode sound source azimuth.

      To get a sense of how effective a neural population is at coding a particular stimulus parameter, it is useful to compare population decoder performance to psychophysical performance. Unfortunately, mouse behavioral localization data do not exist. Therefore, the authors compare decoder error to mouse left-right discrimination thresholds published previously by a different lab. However, this comparison is inappropriate because the decoder and the mice were performing different perceptual tasks. The decoder is classifying sound sources to 1 of 13 locations from left to right, whereas the mice were discriminating between left or right sources centered around zero degrees. The errors in these two tasks represent different things. The two data sets may potentially be more accurately compared by extracting information from the confusion matrices of population decoder performance. For example, when the stimulus was at -30 deg, how often did the decoder classify the stimulus to a lefthand azimuth? Likewise, when the stimulus was +30 deg, how often did the decoder classify the stimulus to a righthand azimuth?

      The azimuth discrimination error reported by Lauer et al. (2011) comes from engaged and highly trained mice, which is a very different context to our experimental setting with untrained mice passively listening to stimuli from 13 random azimuths. Therefore we did not perform analyses or interpretations of our results based on the behavioral task from Lauer et al. (2011) and only made the qualitative observation that the errors match for discussion.

      We believe it is further important to clarify that Lauer et al. (2011) tested the ability of mice to discriminate between a positively conditioned stimulus (reference speaker at 0º center azimuth associated to a liquid reward) and a negatively conditioned stimulus (coming from one of five comparison speakers positioned at 20º, 30º, 50º, 70 and 90º azimuth, associated to an electrified lickport) in a conditioned avoidance task. In this task, mice are not precisely “discriminating between left or right sources centered around zero degrees”, making further analyses to compare the experimental design of Lauer et al (2011) and ours even more challenging for valid interpretation.

      (4) DCIC can encode sound source azimuth in a similar format to that in the central nucleusof the inferior colliculus - It is unclear what exactly the authors mean by this statement in the Abstract. There are major differences in the encoding of azimuth between the two neighboring brain areas: a large majority of neurons in the CNIC are sensitive to azimuth (and strongly so), whereas the present study shows a minority of azimuth-sensitive neurons in the DCIC. Furthermore, CNIC neurons fire reliably to sound stimuli (low neural noise), whereas the present study shows that DCIC neurons fire more erratically (high neural noise).

      Since sound source azimuth is reported to be encoded by population activity patterns at CNIC (Day and Delgutte, 2013), we refer to a population activity pattern code as the “similar format” in which this information is encoded at DCIC. Please note that this is a qualitative comparison and we do not claim this is the “same format”, due to the differences the reviewer precisely describes in the encoding of azimuth at CNIC where a much larger majority of neurons show stronger azimuth sensitivity and response reliability with respect to our observations at DCIC. By this qualitative similarity of encoding format we specifically mean the similar occurrence of activity patterns from azimuth sensitive subpopulations of neurons in both CNIC and DCIC, which carry sufficient information about the stimulus azimuth for a sufficiently accurate prediction with regard to the behavioral discrimination ability.

      (5) Evidence of noise correlation between pairs of neurons exists - The authors' data andanalyses seem appropriate and sufficient to justify this claim.

      (6) Noise correlations between responses of neurons help reduce population decodingerror - The authors show convincing analysis that performance of their decoder increased when simultaneously measured responses were tested (which include noise correlation) than when scrambled-trial responses were tested (eliminating noise correlation). This makes it seem likely that noise correlation in the responses improved decoder performance. The authors mention that the naïve Bayesian classifier was used as their decoder for computational efficiency, presumably because it assumes no noise correlation and, therefore, assumes responses of individual neurons are independent of each other across trials to the same stimulus. The use of decoder that assumes independence seems key here in testing the hypothesis that noise correlation contains information about sound source azimuth. The logic of using this decoder could be more clearly spelled out to the reader. For example, if the null hypothesis is that noise correlations do not carry azimuth information, then a decoder that assumes independence should perform the same whether population responses are simultaneous or scrambled. The authors' analysis showing a difference in performance between these two cases provides evidence against this null hypothesis.

      We sincerely thank the reviewer for this careful and detailed consideration of our analysis approach. Following the reviewer’s constructive suggestion, we justified the decoder choice in the results section at the last paragraph of page 18:

      “To characterize how the observed positive noise correlations could affect the representation of stimulus azimuth by DCIC top ranked unit population responses, we compared the decoding performance obtained by classifying the single-trial response patterns from top ranked units in the modeled decorrelated datasets versus the acquired data (with noise correlations). With the intention to characterize this with a conservative approach that would be less likely to find a contribution of noise correlations as it assumes response independence, we relied on the naive Bayes classifier for decoding throughout the study. Using this classifier, we observed that the modeled decorrelated datasets produced stimulus azimuth prediction error distributions that were significantly shifted towards higher decoding errors (Fig. 5B, C) and, in our imaging datasets, were not significantly different from chance level (Fig. 5B). Altogether, these results suggest that the detected noise correlations in our simultaneously acquired datasets can help reduce the error of the IC population code for sound azimuth.”

      Minor weakness:

      - Most studies of neural encoding of sound source azimuth are done in a noise-free environment, but the experimental setup in the present study had substantial background noise. This complicates comparison of the azimuth tuning results in this study to those of other studies. One is left wondering if azimuth sensitivity would have been greater in the absence of background noise, particularly for the imaging data where the signal was only about 12 dB above the noise. The description of the noise level and signal + noise level in the Methods should be made clearer. Mice hear from about 2.5 - 80 kHz, so it is important to know the noise level within this band as well as specifically within the band overlapping with the signal.

      We agree with the reviewer that this information is useful. In our study, the background R.M.S. SPL during imaging across the mouse hearing range (2.5-80kHz) was 44.53 dB and for neuropixels recordings 34.68 dB. We have added this information to the methods section of the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      In the present study, Boffi et al. investigate the manner in which the dorsal cortex of the of the inferior colliculus (DCIC), an auditory midbrain area, encodes sound location azimuth in awake, passively listening mice. By employing volumetric calcium imaging (scanned temporal focusing or s-TeFo), complemented with high-density electrode electrophysiological recordings (neuropixels probes), they show that sound-evoked responses are exquisitely noisy, with only a small portion of neurons (units) exhibiting spatial sensitivity. Nevertheless, a naïve Bayesian classifier was able to predict the presented azimuth based on the responses from small populations of these spatially sensitive units. A portion of the spatial information was provided by correlated trial-to-trial response variability between individual units (noise correlations). The study presents a novel characterization of spatial auditory coding in a non-canonical structure, representing a noteworthy contribution specifically to the auditory field and generally to systems neuroscience, due to its implementation of state-of-the-art techniques in an experimentally challenging brain region. However, nuances in the calcium imaging dataset and the naïve Bayesian classifier warrant caution when interpreting some of the results.

      Strengths:

      The primary strength of the study lies in its methodological achievements, which allowed the authors to collect a comprehensive and novel dataset. While the DCIC is a dorsal structure, it extends up to a millimetre in depth, making it optically challenging to access in its entirety. It is also more highly myelinated and vascularised compared to e.g., the cerebral cortex, compounding the problem. The authors successfully overcame these challenges and present an impressive volumetric calcium imaging dataset. Furthermore, they corroborated this dataset with electrophysiological recordings, which produced overlapping results. This methodological combination ameliorates the natural concerns that arise from inferring neuronal activity from calcium signals alone, which are in essence an indirect measurement thereof.

      Another strength of the study is its interdisciplinary relevance. For the auditory field, it represents a significant contribution to the question of how auditory space is represented in the mammalian brain. "Space" per se is not mapped onto the basilar membrane of the cochlea and must be computed entirely within the brain. For azimuth, this requires the comparison between miniscule differences between the timing and intensity of sounds arriving at each ear. It is now generally thought that azimuth is initially encoded in two, opposing hemispheric channels, but the extent to which this initial arrangement is maintained throughout the auditory system remains an open question. The authors observe only a slight contralateral bias in their data, suggesting that sound source azimuth in the DCIC is encoded in a more nuanced manner compared to earlier processing stages of the auditory hindbrain. This is interesting, because it is also known to be an auditory structure to receive more descending inputs from the cortex.

      Systems neuroscience continues to strive for the perfection of imaging novel, less accessible brain regions. Volumetric calcium imaging is a promising emerging technique, allowing the simultaneous measurement of large populations of neurons in three dimensions. But this necessitates corroboration with other methods, such as electrophysiological recordings, which the authors achieve. The dataset moreover highlights the distinctive characteristics of neuronal auditory representations in the brain. Its signals can be exceptionally sparse and noisy, which provide an additional layer of complexity in the processing and analysis of such datasets. This will be undoubtedly useful for future studies of other less accessible structures with sparse responsiveness.

      Weaknesses:

      Although the primary finding that small populations of neurons carry enough spatial information for a naïve Bayesian classifier to reasonably decode the presented stimulus is not called into question, certain idiosyncrasies, in particular the calcium imaging dataset and model, complicate specific interpretations of the model output, and the readership is urged to interpret these aspects of the study's conclusions with caution.

      I remain in favour of volumetric calcium imaging as a suitable technique for the study, but the presently constrained spatial resolution is insufficient to unequivocally identify regions of interest as cell bodies (and are instead referred to as "units" akin to those of electrophysiological recordings). It remains possible that the imaging set is inadvertently influenced by non-somatic structures (including neuropil), which could report neuronal activity differently than cell bodies. Due to the lack of a comprehensive ground-truth comparison in this regard (which to my knowledge is impossible to achieve with current technology), it is difficult to imagine how many informative such units might have been missed because their signals were influenced by spurious, non-somatic signals, which could have subsequently misled the models. The authors reference the original Nature Methods article (Prevedel et al., 2016) throughout the manuscript, presumably in order to avoid having to repeat previously published experimental metrics. But the DCIC is neither the cortex nor hippocampus (for which the method was originally developed) and may not have the same light scattering properties (not to mention neuronal noise levels). Although the corroborative electrophysiology data largely eleviates these concerns for this particular study, the readership should be cognisant of such caveats, in particular those who are interested in implementing the technique for their own research.

      A related technical limitation of the calcium imaging dataset is the relatively low number of trials (14) given the inherently high level of noise (both neuronal and imaging). Volumetric calcium imaging, while offering a uniquely expansive field of view, requires relatively high average excitation laser power (in this case nearly 200 mW), a level of exposure the authors may have wanted to minimise by maintaining a low the number of repetitions, but I yield to them to explain.

      We assumed that the levels of heating by excitation light measured at the neocortex in Prevedel et al. (2016), were representative for DCIC also. Nevertheless, we recognize this approximation might not be very accurate, due to the differences in tissue architecture and vascularization from these two brain areas, just to name a few factors. The limiting factor preventing us from collecting more trials in our imaging sessions was that we observed signs of discomfort or slight distress in some mice after ~30 min of imaging in our custom setup, which we established as a humane end point to prevent distress. In consequence imaging sessions were kept to 25 min in duration, limiting the number of trials collected. However we cannot rule out that with more extensive habituation prior to experiments the imaging sessions could be prolonged without these signs of discomfort or if indeed influence from our custom setup like potential heating of the brain by illumination light might be the causing factor of the observed distress. Nevertheless, we note that previous work has shown that ~200mW average power is a safe regime for imaging in the cortex by keeping brain heating minimal (Prevedel et al., 2016), without producing the lasting damages observed by immunohistochemisty against apoptosis markers above 250mW (Podgorski and Ranganathan 2016, https://doi.org/10.1152/jn.00275.2016).

      Calcium imaging is also inherently slow, requiring relatively long inter-stimulus intervals (in this case 5 s). This unfortunately renders any model designed to predict a stimulus (in this case sound azimuth) from particularly noisy population neuronal data like these as highly prone to overfitting, to which the authors correctly admit after a model trained on the entire raw dataset failed to perform significantly above chance level. This prompted them to feed the model only with data from neurons with the highest spatial sensitivity. This ultimately produced reasonable performance (and was implemented throughout the rest of the study), but it remains possible that if the model was fed with more repetitions of imaging data, its performance would have been more stable across the number of units used to train it. (All models trained with imaging data eventually failed to converge.) However, I also see these limitations as an opportunity to improve the technology further, which I reiterate will be generally important for volume imaging of other sparse or noisy calcium signals in the brain.

      Transitioning to the naïve Bayesian classifier itself, I first openly ask the authors to justify their choice of this specific model. There are countless types of classifiers for these data, each with their own pros and cons. Did they actually try other models (such as support vector machines), which ultimately failed? If so, these negative results (even if mentioned en passant) would be extremely valuable to the community, in my view. I ask this specifically because different methods assume correspondingly different statistical properties of the input data, and to my knowledge naïve Bayesian classifiers assume that predictors (neuronal responses) are assumed to be independent within a class (azimuth). As the authors show that noise correlations are informative in predicting azimuth, I wonder why they chose a model that doesn't take advantage of these statistical regularities. It could be because of technical considerations (they mention computing efficiency), but I am left generally uncertain about the specific logic that was used to guide the authors through their analytical journey.

      One of the main reasons we chose the naïve Bayesian classifier is indeed because it assumes that the responses of the simultaneously recorded neurons are independent and therefore it does not assume a contribution of noise correlations to the estimation of the posterior probability of each azimuth. This model would represent the null hypothesis that noise correlations do not contribute to the encoding of stimulus azimuth, which would be verified by an equal decoding outcome from correlated or decorrelated datasets. Since we observed that this is not the case, the model supports the alternative hypothesis that noise correlations do indeed influence stimulus azimuth encoding. We wanted to test these hypotheses with the most conservative approach possible that would be least likely to find a contribution of noise correlations. Other relevant reasons that justify our choice of the naive Bayesian classifier are its robustness against the limited numbers of trials we could collect in comparison to other more “data hungry” classifiers like SVM, KNN, or artificial neuronal nets. We did perform preliminary tests with alternative classifiers but the obtained decoding errors were similar when decoding the whole population activity (Author response image 2A). Dimensionality reduction following the approach described in the manuscript showed a tendency towards smaller decoding errors observed with an alternative classifier like KNN, but these errors were still larger than the ones observed with the naive Bayesian classifier (median error 45º). Nevertheless, we also observe a similar tendency for slightly larger decoding errors in the absence of noise correlations (decorrelated, Author response image 2B). Sentences detailing the logic of classifier choice are now included in the results section at page 10 and at the last paragraph of page 18 (see responses to Reviewer 1).

      Author response image 2.

      A) Cumulative distribution plots of the absolute cross-validated single-trial prediction errors obtained using different classifiers (blue; KNN: K-nearest neighbors; SVM: support vector machine ensemble) and chance level distribution (gray) on the complete populations of imaged units. Cumulative distribution plots of the absolute cross-validated singletrial prediction errors obtained using a Bayes classifier (naive approximation for computation efficiency) to decode the single-trial response patterns from the 31 top ranked units in the simultaneously imaged datasets across mice (cyan), modeled decorrelated datasets (orange) and the chance level distribution associated with our stimulation paradigm (gray). Vertical dashed lines show the medians of cumulative distributions. K.S. w/Sidak: Kolmogorov-Smirnov with Sidak.

      That aside, there remain other peculiarities in model performance that warrant further investigation. For example, what spurious features (or lack of informative features) in these additional units prevented the models of imaging data from converging?

      Considering the amount of variability observed throughout the neuronal responses both in imaging and neuropixels datasets, it is easy to suspect that the information about stimulus azimuth carried in different amounts by individual DCIC neurons can be mixed up with information about other factors (Stringer et al., 2019). In an attempt to study the origin of these features that could confound stimulus azimuth decoding we explored their relation to face movement (Supplemental Figure 2), finding a correlation to snout movements, in line with previous work by Stringer et al. (2019).

      In an orthogonal question, did the most spatially sensitive units share any detectable tuning features? A different model trained with electrophysiology data in contrast did not collapse in the range of top-ranked units plotted. Did this model collapse at some point after adding enough units, and how well did that correlate with the model for the imaging data?

      Our electrophysiology datasets were much smaller in size (number of simultaneously recorded neurons) compared to our volumetric calcium imaging datasets, resulting in a much smaller total number of top ranked units detected per dataset. This precluded the determination of a collapse of decoder performance due to overfitting beyond the range plotted in Fig 4G.

      How well did the form (and diversity) of the spatial tuning functions as recorded with electrophysiology resemble their calcium imaging counterparts? These fundamental questions could be addressed with more basic, but transparent analyses of the data (e.g., the diversity of spatial tuning functions of their recorded units across the population). Even if the model extracts features that are not obvious to the human eye in traditional visualisations, I would still find this interesting.

      The diversity of the azimuth tuning curves recorded with calcium imaging (Fig. 3B) was qualitatively larger than the ones recorded with electrophysiology (Fig. 4B), potentially due to the larger sampling obtained with volumetric imaging. We did not perform a detailed comparison of the form and a more quantitative comparison of the diversity of these functions because the signals compared are quite different, as calcium indicator signal is subject to non linearities due to Ca2+ binding cooperativity and low pass filtering due to binding kinetics. We feared this could lead to misleading interpretations about the similarities or differences between the azimuth tuning functions in imaged and electrophysiology datasets. Our model uses statistical response dependency to stimulus azimuth, which does not rely on features from a descriptive statistic like mean response tuning. In this context, visualizing the trial-to-trial responses as a function of azimuth shows “features that are not obvious to the human eye in traditional visualizations” (Fig. 3D, left inset).

      Finally, the readership is encouraged to interpret certain statements by the authors in the current version conservatively. How the brain ultimately extracts spatial neuronal data for perception is anyone's guess, but it is important to remember that this study only shows that a naïve Bayesian classifier could decode this information, and it remains entirely unclear whether the brain does this as well. For example, the model is able to achieve a prediction error that corresponds to the psychophysical threshold in mice performing a discrimination task (~30 {degree sign}). Although this is an interesting coincidental observation, it does not mean that the two metrics are necessarily related. The authors correctly do not explicitly claim this, but the manner in which the prose flows may lead a non-expert into drawing that conclusion.

      To avoid misleading the non-expert readers, we have clarified in the manuscript that the observed correspondence between decoding error and psychophysical threshold is explicitly coincidental.

      Page 13, end of middle paragraph:

      “If we consider the median of the prediction error distribution as an overall measure of decoding performance, the single-trial response patterns from subsamples of at least the 7 top ranked units produced median decoding errors that coincidentally matched the reported azimuth discrimination ability of mice (Fig 4G, minimum audible angle = 31º) (Lauer et al., 2011).”

      Page 14, bottom paragraph:

      “Decoding analysis (Fig. 4F) of the population response patterns from azimuth dependent top ranked units simultaneously recorded with neuropixels probes showed that the 4 top ranked units are the smallest subsample necessary to produce a significant decoding performance that coincidentally matches the discrimination ability of mice (31° (Lauer et al., 2011)) (Fig. 5F, G).”

      We also added to the Discussion sentences clarifying that a relationship between these two variables remains to be determined and it also remains to be determined if the DCIC indeed performs a bayesian decoding computation for sound localization.

      Page 20, bottom:

      “… Concretely, we show that sound location coding does indeed occur at DCIC on the single trial basis, and that this follows a comparable mechanism to the characterized population code at CNIC (Day and Delgutte, 2013). However, it remains to be determined if indeed the DCIC network is physiologically capable of Bayesian decoding computations. Interestingly, the small number of DCIC top ranked units necessary to effectively decode stimulus azimuth suggests that sound azimuth information is redundantly distributed across DCIC top ranked units, which points out that mechanisms beyond coding efficiency could be relevant for this population code.

      While the decoding error observed from our DCIC datasets obtained in passively listening, untrained mice coincidentally matches the discrimination ability of highly trained, motivated mice (Lauer et al., 2011), a relationship between decoding error and psychophysical performance remains to be determined. Interestingly, a primary sensory representations should theoretically be even more precise than the behavioral performance as reported in the visual system (Stringer et al., 2021).”

      Moreover, the concept of redundancy (of spatial information carried by units throughout the DCIC) is difficult for me to disentangle. One interpretation of this formulation could be that there are non-overlapping populations of neurons distributed across the DCIC that each could predict azimuth independently of each other, which is unlikely what the authors meant. If the authors meant generally that multiple neurons in the DCIC carry sufficient spatial information, then a single neuron would have been able to predict sound source azimuth, which was not the case. I have the feeling that they actually mean "complimentary", but I leave it to the authors to clarify my confusion, should they wish.

      We observed that the response patterns from relatively small fractions of the azimuth sensitive DCIC units (4-7 top ranked units) are sufficient to generate an effective code for sound azimuth, while 32-40% of all simultaneously recorded DCIC units are azimuth sensitive. In light of this observation, we interpreted that the azimuth information carried by the population should be redundantly distributed across the complete subpopulation of azimuth sensitive DCIC units.

      In summary, the present study represents a significant body of work that contributes substantially to the field of spatial auditory coding and systems neuroscience. However, limitations of the imaging dataset and model as applied in the study muddles concrete conclusions about how the DCIC precisely encodes sound source azimuth and even more so to sound localisation in a behaving animal. Nevertheless, it presents a novel and unique dataset, which, regardless of secondary interpretation, corroborates the general notion that auditory space is encoded in an extraordinarily complex manner in the mammalian brain.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Boffi and colleagues sought to quantify the single-trial, azimuthal information in the dorsal cortex of the inferior colliculus (DCIC), a relatively understudied subnucleus of the auditory midbrain. They used two complementary recording methods while mice passively listened to sounds at different locations: a large volume but slow sampling calcium-imaging method, and a smaller volume but temporally precise electrophysiology method. They found that neurons in the DCIC were variable in their activity, unreliably responding to sound presentation and responding during inter-sound intervals. Boffi and colleagues used a naïve Bayesian decoder to determine if the DCIC population encoded sound location on a single trial. The decoder failed to classify sound location better than chance when using the raw single-trial population response but performed significantly better than chance when using intermediate principal components of the population response. In line with this, when the most azimuth dependent neurons were used to decode azimuthal position, the decoder performed equivalently to the azimuthal localization abilities of mice. The top azimuthal units were not clustered in the DCIC, possessed a contralateral bias in response, and were correlated in their variability (e.g., positive noise correlations). Interestingly, when these noise correlations were perturbed by inter-trial shuffling decoding performance decreased. Although Boffi and colleagues display that azimuthal information can be extracted from DCIC responses, it remains unclear to what degree this information is used and what role noise correlations play in azimuthal encoding.

      Strengths:

      The authors should be commended for collection of this dataset. When done in isolation (which is typical), calcium imaging and linear array recordings have intrinsic weaknesses. However, those weaknesses are alleviated when done in conjunction with one another - especially when the data largely recapitulates the findings of the other recording methodology. In addition to the video of the head during the calcium imaging, this data set is extremely rich and will be of use to those interested in the information available in the DCIC, an understudied but likely important subnucleus in the auditory midbrain.

      The DCIC neural responses are complex; the units unreliably respond to sound onset, and at the very least respond to some unknown input or internal state (e.g., large inter-sound interval responses). The authors do a decent job in wrangling these complex responses: using interpretable decoders to extract information available from population responses.

      Weaknesses:

      The authors observe that neurons with the most azimuthal sensitivity within the DCIC are positively correlated, but they use a Naïve Bayesian decoder which assume independence between units. Although this is a bit strange given their observation that some of the recorded units are correlated, it is unlikely to be a critical flaw. At one point the authors reduce the dimensionality of their data through PCA and use the loadings onto these components in their decoder. PCA incorporates the correlational structure when finding the principal components and constrains these components to be orthogonal and uncorrelated. This should alleviate some of the concern regarding the use of the naïve Bayesian decoder because the projections onto the different components are independent. Nevertheless, the decoding results are a bit strange, likely because there is not much linearly decodable azimuth information in the DCIC responses. Raw population responses failed to provide sufficient information concerning azimuth for the decoder to perform better than chance. Additionally, it only performed better than chance when certain principal components or top ranked units contributed to the decoder but not as more components or units were added. So, although there does appear to be some azimuthal information in the recoded DCIC populations - it is somewhat difficult to extract and likely not an 'effective' encoding of sound localization as their title suggests.

      As described in the responses to reviewers 1 and 2, we chose the naïve Bayes classifier as a decoder to determine the influence of noise correlations through the most conservative approach possible, as this classifier would be least likely to find a contribution of correlated noise. Also, we chose this decoder due to its robustness against limited numbers of trials collected, in comparison to “data hungry” non linear classifiers like KNN or artificial neuronal nets. Lastly, we observed that small populations of noisy, unreliable (do not respond in every trial) DCIC neurons can encode stimulus azimuth in passively listening mice matching the discrimination error of trained mice. Therefore, while this encoding is definitely not efficient, it can still be considered effective.

      Although this is quite a worthwhile dataset, the authors present relatively little about the characteristics of the units they've recorded. This may be due to the high variance in responses seen in their population. Nevertheless, the authors note that units do not respond on every trial but do not report what percent of trials that fail to evoke a response. Is it that neurons are noisy because they do not respond on every trial or is it also that when they do respond they have variable response distributions? It would be nice to gain some insight into the heterogeneity of the responses.

      The limited number of azimuth trial repetitions that we could collect precluded us from making any quantification of the unreliability (failures to respond) and variability in the response distributions from the units we recorded, as we feared they could be misleading. In qualitative terms, “due to the high variance in responses seen” in the recordings and the limited trial sampling, it is hard to make any generalization. In consequence we referred to the observed response variance altogether as neuronal noise. Considering these points, our datasets are publicly available for exploration of the response characteristics.

      Additionally, is there any clustering at all in response profiles or is each neuron they recorded in the DCIC unique?

      We attempted to qualitatively visualize response clustering using dimensionality reduction, observing different degrees of clustering or lack thereof across the azimuth classes in the datasets collected from different mice. It is likely that the limited number of azimuth trials we could collect and the high response variance contribute to an inconsistent response clustering across datasets.

      They also only report the noise correlations for their top ranked units, but it is possible that the noise correlations in the rest of the population are different.

      For this study, since our aim was to interrogate the influence of noise correlations on stimulus azimuth encoding by DCIC populations, we focused on the noise correlations from the top ranked unit subpopulation, which likely carry the bulk of the sound location information.  Noise correlations can be defined as correlation in the trial to trial response variation of neurons. In this respect, it is hard to ascertain if the rest of the population, that is not in the top rank unit percentage, are really responding and showing response variation to evaluate this correlation, or are simply not responding at all and show unrelated activity altogether. This makes observations about noise correlations from “the rest of the population” potentially hard to interpret.

      It would also be worth digging into the noise correlations more - are units positively correlated because they respond together (e.g., if unit x responds on trial 1 so does unit y) or are they also modulated around their mean rates on similar trials (e.g., unit x and y respond and both are responding more than their mean response rate). A large portion of trial with no response can occlude noise correlations. More transparency around the response properties of these populations would be welcome.

      Due to the limited number of azimuth trial repetitions collected, to evaluate noise correlations we used the non parametric Kendall tau correlation coefficient which is a measure of pairwise rank correlation or ordinal association in the responses to each azimuth. Positive rank correlation would represent neurons more likely responding together. Evaluating response modulation “around their mean rates on similar trials” would require assumptions about the response distributions, which we avoided due to the potential biases associated with limited sample sizes.

      It is largely unclear what the DCIC is encoding. Although the authors are interested in azimuth, sound location seems to be only a small part of DCIC responses. The authors report responses during inter-sound interval and unreliable sound-evoked responses. Although they have video of the head during recording, we only see a correlation to snout and ear movements (which are peculiar since in the example shown it seems the head movements predict the sound presentation). Additional correlates could be eye movements or pupil size. Eye movement are of particular interest due to their known interaction with IC responses - especially if the DCIC encodes sound location in relation to eye position instead of head position (though much of eye-position-IC work was done in primates and not rodent). Alternatively, much of the population may only encode sound location if an animal is engaged in a localization task. Ideally, the authors could perform more substantive analyses to determine if this population is truly noisy or if the DCIC is integrating un-analyzed signals.

      We unsuccessfully attempted eye tracking and pupillometry in our videos. We suspect that the reason behind this is a generally overly dilated pupil due to the low visible light illumination conditions we used which were necessary to protect the PMT of our custom scope.

      It is likely that DCIC population activity is integrating un-analyzed signals, like the signal associated with spontaneous behaviors including face movements (Stringer et al., 2019), which we observed at the level of spontaneous snout movements. However investigating if and how these signals are integrated to stimulus azimuth coding requires extensive behavioral testing and experimentation which is out of the scope of this study. For the purpose of our study, we referred to trial-to-trial response variation as neuronal noise. We note that this definition of neuronal noise can, and likely does, include an influence from un-analyzed signals like the ones from spontaneous behaviors.

      Although this critique is ubiquitous among decoding papers in the absence of behavioral or causal perturbations, it is unclear what - if any - role the decoded information may play in neuronal computations. The interpretation of the decoder means that there is some extractable information concerning sound azimuth - but not if it is functional. This information may just be epiphenomenal, leaking in from inputs, and not used in computation or relayed to downstream structures. This should be kept in mind when the authors suggest their findings implicate the DCIC functionally in sound localization.

      Our study builds upon previous reports by other independent groups relying on “causal and behavioral perturbations” and implicating DCIC in sound location learning induced experience dependent plasticity (Bajo et al., 2019, 2010; Bajo and King, 2012), which altogether argues in favor of DCIC functionality in sound localization.

      Nevertheless, we clarified in the discussion of the revised manuscript that a relationship between the observed decoding error and the psychophysical performance, or the ability of the DCIC network to perform Bayesian decoding computations, both remain to be determined (please see responses to Reviewer #2).

      It is unclear why positive noise correlations amongst similarly tuned neurons would improve decoding. A toy model exploring how positive noise correlations in conjunction with unreliable units that inconsistently respond may anchor these findings in an interpretable way. It seems plausible that inconsistent responses would benefit from strong noise correlations, simply by units responding together. This would predict that shuffling would impair performance because you would then be sampling from trials in which some units respond, and trials in which some units do not respond - and may predict a bimodal performance distribution in which some trials decode well (when the units respond) and poor performance (when the units do not respond).

      In samples with more that 2 dimensions, the relationship between signal and noise correlations is more complex than in two dimensional samples (Montijn et al., 2016) which makes constructing interpretable and simple toy models of this challenging. Montijn et al. (2016) provide a detailed characterization and model describing how the accuracy of a multidimensional population code can improve when including “positive noise correlations amongst similarly tuned neurons”. Unfortunately we could not successfully test their model based on Mahalanobis distances as we could not verify that the recorded DCIC population responses followed a multivariate gaussian distribution, due to the limited azimuth trial repetitions we could sample.

      Significance:

      Boffi and colleagues set out to parse the azimuthal information available in the DCIC on a single trial. They largely accomplish this goal and are able to extract this information when allowing the units that contain more information about sound location to contribute to their decoding (e.g., through PCA or decoding on top unit activity specifically). The dataset will be of value to those interested in the DCIC and also to anyone interested in the role of noise correlations in population coding. Although this work is first step into parsing the information available in the DCIC, it remains difficult to interpret if/how this azimuthal information is used in localization behaviors of engaged mice.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      General:

      The manuscript is generally well written, but could benefit from a quick proof by a native English speaker (e.g., "the" inferior colliculus is conventionally used with its article). The flow of arguments is also generally easy to follow, but I would kindly ask the authors to consider elaborating or clarifying the following points (including those already mentioned in my public review).

      (1) Choice of model:

      There are countless ways one can construct a decoder or classifier that can predict a presented sensory stimulus based on a population neuronal response. Given the assumptions of independence as mentioned in my public review, I would ask the authors to explicitly justify their choice of a naïve Bayesian classifier.

      A section detailing the logic of classifier choice is now included in the results section at page 10 and the last paragraph of page 18 from the revised version of the manuscript.

      (2) Number of imaging repetitions:

      For particularly noisy datasets, 14 repetitions is indeed quite few. I reckon this was not the choice of the authors, but rather limited by the inherent experimental conditions. Despite minimisation of required average laser power during the development of s-TeFo imaging, the authors still required almost 200 mW (which is still quite a lot of exposure). Although 14 repetitions for 13 azimuthal locations every 5 s is at face value a relatively short imaging session (~15 min.), at 191 mW, with the desire to image mice multiple times, I could imagine that this is a practical limitation the authors faced (to avoid excessive tissue heating or photodamage, which was assessed in the original Nature Methods article, but not here). Nevertheless, this logic (or whatever logic they had) should be explained for non-imaging experts in the readership.

      This is now addressed in the answers to the public reviews.

      (3) Redundancy:

      It is honestly unclear to me what the authors mean by this. I don't speculate that they mean there are "redundant" (small) populations of neurons that sufficiently encode azimuth, but I'm actually not certain. If that were the case, I believe this would need further clarification, since redundant representations would be both inconsistent with the general (perhaps surprising) finding that large populations are not required in the DCIC, which is thought to be the case at earlier processing stages.

      In the text we are referring to the azimuth information being redundantly distributed across DCIC top ranked units. We do not mention redundant “populations of neurons”.

      (4) Correspondence of decoding accuracy with psychometric functions in mice: While this is an interesting coincidental observation, it should not be interpreted that the neuronal detection threshold in the DCIC somehow is somehow responsible its psychometric counterpart (which is an interesting yet exceedingly complex question). Although I do not believe the authors intended to suggest this, I would personally be cautious in the way I describe this correspondence. I mention this because the authors point it out multiple times in the manuscript (whereas I would have just mentioned it once in passing).

      This is now clarified in the revised manuscript.

      (5) Noisy vs. sparse:

      I'm confident that the authors understand the differences between these terms, both in concept (stochastic vs. scattered) and in context (neuronal vs. experimental), but I personally would be cautious in the way I use them in the description of the study. Indeed, auditory neuronal signals are to my knowledge generally thought to be both sparse and noisy, which is in itself interesting, but the study also deals with substantial experimental (recording) noise, and I think it's important for the readership to understand when "noise" refers to the recordings (in particular the imaging data) and to neuronal activity. I mention this specifically because "noisy" appears in the title.

      We have clarified this issue at the bottom of page 5 by adding the following sentences to the revised manuscript:

      “In this section we used the word “noise” to refer to the sound stimuli used and recording setup background sound levels or recording noise in the acquired signals. To avoid confusion, from now on in the manuscript the word “noise” will be used in the context of neuronal noise, which is the trial-to-trial variation in neuronal responses unrelated to stimuli, unless otherwise noted.”

      (6)  More details in the Methods:

      The Methods section is perhaps the least-well structured part of the present manuscript in my view, and I encourage the authors to carefully go through it and add the following information (in case I somehow missed it).

      a. Please also indicate the number of animals used here.

      Added.

      b. How many sessions were performed on each mouse?

      This is already specified in the methods section in page 25:

      “mice were imaged a total of 2-11 times (sessions), one to three times a week.”

      We added for clarification:

      “Datasets here analyzed and reported come from the imaging session in which we observed maximal calcium sensor signal (peak AAV expression) and maximum number of detected units.”

      c. For the imaging experiments, was it possible to image the same units from session tosession?

      This is not possible for sTeFo 2P data due to low spatial resolution which makes precisely matching neuron ROIs across sessions challenging.

      d. Could the authors please add more detail to the analyses of the videos (to track facialmovements) or provide a reference?

      Added citation.

      e. The same goes for the selection of subcellular regions of interest that were used as"units."

      Added to page 25:

      “We used the CaImAn package (Giovannucci et al., 2019) for automatic ROI segmentation through constrained non negative matrix factorization and selected ROIs (Units) showing clear Ca transients consistent with neuronal activity, and IC neuron somatic shape and size (Schofield and Beebe, 2019).”

      Specific: In order to maximise the efficiency of my comments and suggestions (as there are no line numbers), my numerated points are organised in sequential order.

      (1) Abstract: I wouldn't personally motivate the study with the central nucleus of the IC (i.e. Idon't think this is necessary). I think the authors can motivate it simply with the knowledge gaps in spatial coding throughout the auditory system, in which such large data sets such as the ones presented here are of general value.

      (2) Page 4: 15-50 kHz "white" noise is incorrect. It should be "band-passed" noise.

      Changed.

      (3) Supplemental figure 1, panel A: Since the authors could not identify cell bodiesunequivocally from their averaged volume timeseries data, it would be clearer to the readership if larger images are shown, so that they can evaluate (speculate) for themselves what subcellular structures were identified as units. Even better would be to include a planar image through a cross-section. As mentioned above, not everything determined for the cortex or hippocampus can be assumed to be true for the DCIC.

      The raw images and segmentations are publicly available for detailed inspections.

      (4) Supplemental figure 2, panel A: This panel requires further explanation, in particular thepanel on the right. I assume that to be a simple subtraction of sequential frames, but I'm thrown off by the "d(Grey)" colour bar. Also, if "grey" refers to the neutral colour, it is conventionally spelled "gray" in US-American English.

      Changed.

      (5) Supplemental figure 2, panel B: I'm personally curious why the animals exhibitedmovement just prior to a stimulus. Did they learn to anticipate the presentation of a sound after some habituation? Is that somehow a pre-emptive startle response? We observe that in our own experiments (but as we stochastically vary the inter-trial-intervals, the movement typically occurs directly after the stimulus). I don't suggest the authors dwell on this, but I find it an interesting observation.

      It is indeed interesting, but we can’t conclude much about it without comparing it to random inter-trial-intervals.

      (6) Supplemental figure 3: I personally find these data (decoding of all electrophysiologicaldata) of central relevance to the study, since it mirrors the analyses presented for its imaging data counterpart and encourage the authors to move it to the main text.

      Changed.

      (7) Page 12: Do the authors have any further analyses of spatial tuning functions? We allknow they can parametrically obscure (i.e., bi-lobed, non-monotonic, etc.), but having these parameters (even if just in a supplemental figure) would be informative for the spatial auditory community.

      We dedicated significant effort to attempt to parametrize and classify the azimuth response dependency functions from the recorded DCIC cells in an unbiased way. Nevertheless, given the observed response noise and the “obscure” properties of spatial tuning functions mentioned by the reviewer, we could only reach the general qualitative observation of having a more frequent contralateral selectivity.

      (8) Page 14 (end): Here, psychometric correspondence is referenced. Please add theLauer et al., (2011) reference, or, as I would, remove the statement entirely and save it for the discussion (where it is also mentioned and referenced).

      Changed.

      (9) Figure 5, Panels B and C: Why don't the authors report the Kruskal-Wallis tests (forincreasing number of units training the model), akin to e.g., Panel G of Figure 4? I think that would be interesting to see (e.g., if the number of required units to achieve statistical significance is the same).

      Within class randomization produced a moderate effect on decoder performance, achieving statistical significance at similar numbers of units, as seen in figure 5 panels B and C. We did not include these plots for the sake of not cluttering the figure with dense distributions and fuzzing the visualization of the differences between the distributions shown.

      (10) Figure 5, Panels B and C (histograms): I see a bit of skewedness in the distributions(even after randomisation). Where does this come from? This is just a small talking point.

      We believe this is potentially due to more than one distribution of pairwise correlations combined into one histogram (like in a Gaussian mixture model).

      (11) Page 21: Could the authors please specify that the Day and Delgutte (2013) study wasperformed on rabbits? Since rabbits have an entirely different spectral hearing range compared to mice, spatial coding principles could very well be different in those animals (and I'm fairly certain such a study has not yet been published for mice).

      Specified.

      (12) Page 22: I'd encourage the authors to remove the reference to Rayleigh's duplextheory, since mice hardly (if at all) use interaural time differences for azimuthal sound localisation, given their generally high-frequency hearing range.

      That sentence is meant to discuss beyond the mouse model an exciting outlook of our findings in light of previous reports, which is a hypothetical functional relationship between the tonotopy in DCIC and the spatial distribution of azimuth sensitive DCIC neurons. We have clarified this now in the text.

      (13) Page 23: I believe the conventional verb for gene delivery with viruses is still"transduce" (or "infect", but not "induce"). What was the specific "syringe" used for stereotactic injections? Also, why were mice housed separately after surgery? This question pertains to animal welfare.

      Changed. The syringe was a 10ml syringe to generate positive or negative pressure, coupled to the glass needle through a silicon tubing via a luer 3-way T valve. Single housing was chosen to avoid mice compromising each other’s implantations. Therefore this can be seen as a refinement of our method to maximize the chances of successful imaging per implanted mouse.

      (14) Page 25: Could the authors please indicate the refractory period violation time windowhere? I had to find it buried in the figure caption of Supplementary figure 1.

      Added.

      (15) Page 27: What version of MATLAB was used? This could be important for reproductionof the analyses, since The Mathworks is infamously known to add (or even more deplorably, modify) functions in particular versions (and not update older ones accordingly).

      Added.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Overall I thought this was a nice manuscript and a very interesting dataset. Here are some suggestions and minor corrections:

      You may find this work of interest - 'A monotonic code for sound azimuth in primate inferior colliculus' 2003, Groh, Kelly & Underhill.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out this extremely relevant reference, which we regrettably failed to cite. It is now included in the revised version of the manuscript.

      In your introduction, you state "our findings point to a functional role of DCIC in sound location coding". Though your results show that there is azimuthal information contained in a subset of DCIC units there's no evidence in the manuscript that shows a functional link between this representation and sound localization.

      This is now addressed in the answers to the public reviews.

      I found the variability in your DCIC population quite striking - especially during the intersound intervals. The entrainment of the population in the imaging datatset suggests some type of input activating the populations - maybe these are avenues for further probing the variability here:

      (1) I'm curious if you can extract eye movements from your video. Work from Jennifer Grohshows that some cells in the primate inferior colliculus are sensitive to different eye positions (Groh et. al., 2001). With recent work showing eye movements in rodents, it may explain some of the variance in the DCIC responses.

      This is now addressed in the answers to the public reviews.

      (2) I was also curious if the motor that moves the speaker made noise It could be possiblesome of the 'on going' activity could be some sound-evoked response.

      We were careful to set the stepper motor speed so that it produced low frequency noise, within a band mostly outside of the hearing range of mice (<4kHz). Nevertheless, we cannot fully rule out that a very quiet but perhaps very salient component of the motor noise could influence the activity during the inter trial periods. The motor was stationary and quiet for a period of at least one stimulus duration before and during stimulus presentation.  

      (3) Was the sound you present frozen or randomly generated on each trial? Could therebe some type of structure in the noise you presented that sometimes led cells to respond to a particular azimuth location but not others?

      The sound presented was frozen noise. This is now clarified in the methods section.

      It may be useful to quantify the number of your units that had refractory period violations.

      Our manual curation of sorted units was very stringent to avoid mixing differently tuned neurons. The single units analyzed had very infrequent refractory period violations, in less than ~5% of the spikes, considering a 2 ms refractory period.

      Was the video recording contralateral or ipsilateral to the recording?

      The side of the face ipsilateral to the imaged IC was recorded. Added to methods.

      I was struck by the snout and ear movements - in the example shown in Supplementary Figure 2B it appears as they are almost predicting sound onset. Was there any difference in ear movements in the habituated and non-habituated animals? Also, does the placement of the cranial window disturb any of the muscles used in ear movement?

      Mouse snout movements appear to be quite active perhaps reflecting arousal (Stringer et al., 2019). We cannot rule out that the cranial window implantation disturbed ear movement but while moving the mouse headfixed we observed what could be considered normal ear movements.

      Did you correlate time-point by time-point in the average population activity and movement or did you try different temporal labs/leads in case the effect of the movements was delayed in some way?

      Point by point due to 250ms time resolution of imaging.

      Are the video recordings only available during the imaging? It would be nice to see the same type of correlations in the neuropixel-acquired data as well.

      Only imaging. For neuropixels recordings, we were skeptical about face videography as we suspected that face movements were likely influenced by the acute nature of the preparation procedure. Our cranial window preparation in the other hand involved a recovery period of at least 4 weeks. Therefore we were inclined to perform videographical interrogation of face movements on these mice instead.

      If you left out more than 1 trial do you think this would help your overfitting issue (e.g. leaving out 20% of the data).

      Due to the relatively small number of trial repetitions collected, fitting the model with an even smaller training dataset is unlikely to help overfitting and will likely decrease decoder performance.

      It would be nice to see a confusion matrix - even though azimuthal error and cumulative distribution of error are a fine way to present the data - a confusion matrix would tell us which actual sounds the decoder is confusing. Just looking at errors could result in some funky things where you reduce the error generally but never actually estimate the correct location.

      We considered confusion matrices early on in our study but they were not easily interpretable or insightful, likely due to the relatively low discrimination ability of the mouse model with +/- 30º error after extensive training. Therefore, we reasoned that in passively listening mice (and likely trained mice too) with limited trial repetitions, an undersampled and diffuse confusion matrix is expected which is not an ideal means of visualizing and comparing decoding errors. Hence we relied on cumulative error distributions.

      Do your top-ranked units have stronger projections onto your 10-40 principal components?

      It would be interesting to know if the components are mostly taking into account those 30ish percent of the population that is dependent upon azimuth.

      Inspection of PC loadings across units ranked based on response dependency to stimulus azimuth does not show a consistent stronger projection of top ranked units onto the first 10-40 principal components (Author response image 3).

      Author response image 3.

      PC loading matrices for each recorded mouse. The units recorded in each mouse are ranked in descending order of response dependency to stimulus azimuth based on  the p value of the chi square test. Units above the red dotted line display a chi square p value < 0.05, units below this line have p values >= 0.05.

      How much overlap is there in the tuning of the top-ranked units?

      This is quite varying from mouse to mouse and imaging vs electrophysiology, which makes it hard to make a generalization since this might depend on the unique DCIC population sampled in each mouse.

      I'm not really sure I follow what the nS/N adds - it doesn't really measure tuning but it seems to be introduced to discuss/extract some measure of tuning.

      nS/N is used to quantify how noisy neurons are, independent of how sensitive their responses are to the stimulus azimuth.

      Is the noise correlation - observed to become more positive - for more contralateral stimuli a product of higher firing rates due to a more preferred stimulus presentation or a real effect in the data? Was there any relationship between distance and strength of observed noise correlation in the DCIC?

      We observed a consistent and homogeneous trend of pairwise noise correlation distributions either shifted or tailed towards more positive values across stimulus azimuths, for imaging and electrophysiology datasets (Author response image 3). The lower firing frequency observed in neuropixels recordings in response to ipsilateral azimuths could have affected the statistical power of the comparison between the pairwise noise correlation coefficient distribution to its randomized chance level, but the overall histogram shapes qualitatively support this consistent trend across azimuths (Author response image 4).

      Author response image 4.

      Distribution histograms for the pairwise correlation coefficients (Kendall tau) from pairs of simultaneously recorded top ranked units across mice (blue) compared to the chance level distribution obtained through randomization of the temporal structure of each unit’s activity to break correlations (purple). Vertical lines show the medians of these distributions. Imaging data comes from n = 12 mice and neuropixels data comes from n = 4 mice.

      Typos:

      'a population code consisting on the simultaneous" > should on be of?

      'half of the trails' > trails should be trials?

      'referncing the demuxed channels' > should it be demixed?

      Corrected.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Tateishi et al. report a Tn-seq-based analysis of genetic requirements for growth and fitness in 8 clinical strains of Mycobacterium intracellulare Mi), and compare the findings with a type strain ATCC13950. The study finds a core set of 131 genes that are essential in all nine strains, and therefore are reasonably argued as potential drug targets. Multiple other genes required for fitness in clinical isolates have been found to be important for hypoxic growth in the type strain.

      Strengths:

      The study has generated a large volume of Tn-seq datasets of multiple clinical strains of Mi from multiple growth conditions, including from mouse lungs. The dataset can serve as an important resource for future studies on Mi, which despite being clinically significant remains a relatively understudied species of mycobacteria.

      Thank you for reviewing our manuscript and finding the significance of our data.

      Weaknesses:

      The paper lacks clarity in data presentation and organization. For example, some of the key data on cfu counts of clinical Mi strains in a mouse model can be presented along with the Tn-seq dataset in Figure 6, the visualization of which can be improved with volcano plots. etc. Improvement in data visualization is perhaps necessary throughout the paper.

      Thank you for the comment on the data presentation of in vivo studies. We previously revealed the time-course data on CFUs, animal survival, and tissue pathology from the pure strains (Tateishi Y. BMC Microbiol. 2023; new Ref #22) . Based on these data, we assumed that we would be able to harvest sufficient number of colonies from mice infected with M.i.27 or M.i.198, and we performed in vivo TnSeq studies using these two strains. We have referred to our previous publication (new Ref #22) on the virulence of MAC-PD strains used in this study for mice in the revised manuscript (page12, line 212).

      The data of CFU counts were shown in new Supplementary Fig. 3b. In the manuscript text, we explained as follows (page 12, lines 212-216): “The time course of the changes in the bacterial burden showed a pattern similar to those of the wild-type strains M.i.198 and M.i.27, respectively, except that it was not possible to harvest sufficient colonies (as few as 104/mouse) in the few mice infected with the M.i.27 Tn mutant strain in week 8 and week 16 (page 12, lines 212-216; new Supplementary Fig, 3b, new Supplementary Table 8)”.

      Regarding the suggestion to include volcano plots, we appreciate the proposal but chose not to adopt this format, as the main aim of this study was to identify genes commonly required for in vitro and in vivo fitness across multiple M. intracellulare strains, rather than to highlight differential genetic requirements within a single strain. Volcano plots are useful for visualizing differential values and significance for a single dataset but are less suited for cross-strain comparisons of shared gene sets. Our approach is aligned with the methodology used by Cary et al. (PLoS Pathog. 2018; new Ref#8), who similarly focused on identifying conserved genetic requirements across M. tuberculosis genotypes without employing volcano plots.

      [References]

      Tateishi, Y. et al. Virulence of Mycobacterium intracellulare clinical strains in a mouse model of lung infection - role of neutrophilic inflammation in disease severity. BMC Microbiol 23, 94 (2023).

      Carey, A.F. et al. TnSeq of Mycobacterium tuberculosis clinical isolates reveals strain-specific antibiotic liabilities. PLoS Pathog 14, e1006939 (2018).

      The primary claim of the study that the clinical strains are better adapted for hypoxic growth is not well-supported by the data presented in Figure 7.

      Thank you for the comments on the difference of adaptation for hypoxic growth between ATCC13950 and clinical MAC-PD strains. To clarify, growth rates shown in Figure 7 were calculated at the inflection point (midpoint) of the growth curves, which were modeled using a four-parameter logistic (4P logistic) model. As described in the Discussion, we found the pattern of hypoxic adaptation characteristics of the clinical MAC-PD strains from the growth curve forms. Taking into consideration the impact of growing bacteria on the disease progression of MAC-PD, the slow growth with early entry to log phase implicates the continuous impact on the infected hosts during logarithmic bacterial growth, which may be involved in the persistent and steadily progressive illness of MAC-PD for years in humans.

      Unlike time-lapse imaging assay, the completely seamless sampling of culture for CFU assay is impossible. Nevertheless, we collected sufficient timepoints to allow reliable curve fitting with the 4P logistic model and thus consider our growth data to represent a valid approximation of continuous growth dynamics.

      Regarding the suggestion of mixed culture experiments, we agree that such studies could be informative. However, co-culture conditions introduce additional variables, including inter-strain competition or synergy, which can obscure the specific contributions of hypoxic adaptation in each strain. Therefore, we believe that the current approach using monoculture growth curves under defined oxygen conditions offers a clearer interpretation of strain-specific hypoxic responses.

      The title of the paper is misleading as the study doesn't provide any mechanistic aspect of hypoxic adaptation in Mi.

      Thank you for the comment on the article title. We admit that this paper does not directly reveal the mechanism of hypoxic adaptation in M. intracellulare strains but provides the data on the different pattern of hypoxic adaptation between M. intracellulare strains in relation to the difference of genetic requirements. Therefore, we revised the title as ”Functional genomics reveals strain-specific genetic requirements conferring hypoxic growth in Mycobacterium intracellulare

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In the study titled "Functional genomics reveals the mechanism of hypoxic adaptation in nontuberculous mycobacteria" by Tateishi et al., the authors have used TnSeq to identify the common essential and growth-defect-associated genes that represent the genomic diversity of clinical M. intracellulare strains in comparison to the reference type strain. By estimating the frequency of Tn insertion, the authors speculate that genes involved in gluconeogenesis, the type VII secretion system, and cysteine desulfurase are relatively critical in the clinical MAC-PD strains than in the type strain, both for the extracellular survival and in a mouse lung infection model.

      Based on their analysis, the authors proposed to identify the mechanism of hypoxic adaptation in nontuberculous mycobacteria (NTM) which offer promising drug targets in the strains causing clinical Mycobacterium avium-intracellulare complex pulmonary disease (MAC-PD).

      Strengths:

      A major strength of the manuscript is the performance of the exhaustive set of TnSeq experiments with multiple strains of M. intracellulare during in vitro growth and animal infection.

      Thank you for reviewing our manuscript and acknowledging the performance of producing datasets in this study.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The study suffers from the authors' preconceived bias toward a small subset of genes involved in hypoxic pellicle formation in ATCC13950.

      Thank you for the comment regarding a potential bias toward a small subset of genes involved in hypoxic pellicle formation in ATCC13950. The rationale for the importance of hypoxic pellicle genes in clinical MAC-PD strains is that the profiles of genetic requirements in each bacterial strain reflect the adaptation to the environment in which each strain lives. When the strains are placed in a special environment, they can adapt to the situation by altering the profiles of genetic requirements, resulting in the remodeling of metabolic pathways.

      In this study, we found that several of these pellicle-associated genes also showed increased genetic requirement in the clinical MAC-PD strains, suggesting a possible overlap in hypoxic adaptation mechanisms. We did not insist that clinical MAC-PD strains showed an increase of genetic requirements in all genes of hypoxic pellicle formation. Except for the gene sets involved in hypoxic pellicle formation in ATCC13950, almost no global information has been revealed on the pathogenesis of nontuberculous mycobacterial disease, which differs from the case of tuberculosis. Along with this finding, we investigated the effect of gene silencing on bacterial growth and preferential hypoxic adaptation observed by growth kinetics in clinical MAC-PD strains compared to ATCC13950. At first glance, to focus on the gene sets of hypoxic pellicle formation seems to be “biased”, but we proceeded this research step by step based on our achievements. We consider these data provide valuable information on the pathogenesis of MAC-PD by clinical MAC-PD strains.

      We have added the description of the rationale for the importance of hypoxic pellicle genes in clinical MAC-PD strains in the revised manuscript (page 9, lines 148-155).

      (2) An important set of data with the ATCC13950 reference strain is missing in the mouse infection study. In the absence of this, it is difficult to establish whether the identified genes are critical for infection/intracellular proliferation, specifically in the clinical isolates that are relatively more adapted for hypoxia.

      Thank you for the comment on the necessity of setting ATCC13950 as a control strain of mouse TnSeq experiment. To set ATCC13950 as a control strain in mouse infection experiments would be ideal. However, we proved that ATCC13950 is eliminated within 4 weeks of infection (Tateishi Y. BMC Microbiol. 2023; new Ref#22). That means, it is impossible to perform in vivo TnSeq study due to the inability to harvest sufficient number of colonies.

      [Reference]

      Tateishi, Y. et al. Virulence of Mycobacterium intracellulare clinical strains in a mouse model of lung infection - role of neutrophilic inflammation in disease severity. BMC Microbiol 23, 94 (2023).

      (3) Statistical enrichment analysis of gene sets by GSEA wrongly involves genes required for hypoxic pellicle formation in ATCC13950 together with the gene sets found essential in the clinical MAC-PD strains, to claim that a significant % of genes belong to hypoxia-adaptation pathways. It could be factually incorrect because a majority of these might overlap with those found critical for the in vitro survival of MAC-PD strains (and may not be related to hypoxia).

      Thank you for the suggestion on the re-analysis of gene enrichment analysis of genes required for M.i.27 and M.i.198 in vivo infection, individually with genes involved in hypoxic pellicle formation in ATCC13950 and with those showing increased genetic requirements in clinical MAC-PD strains compared to ATCC13950.

      About 50% (92 and 94 out of 181 genes through Day 1 to Week 16 and Week4 to Week16 of infection) and 40% (70 and 79 genes out of 179 through Day 1 to Week 16 and Week 4 to Week 16 of infection) of genes required for hypoxic pellicle formation in ATCC13950 were listed as enriched in genes required for mouse lung infection in M.i.27 and M.i.198, respectively. In addition, about 42% (54 and 56 out of 128 genes through Day 1 to Week 16 and thorough Week 4 to Week 16 of infection) and 40% (79 and 68 out of 179 genes through Day 1 to Week 16 and through Week 4 to Week 16 of infection) of genes showing increased requirements in clinical MAC-PD strains compared to ATCC13950 were listed as enriched in genes required for mouse lung infection in M.i.27 and M.i.198, respectively.

      These data indicate that about 40-50% genes required for in vitro hypoxic pellicle formation are shared with the genes required for in vivo bacterial growth, and that about 40% strain-dependent/accessory essential genes are shared with the genes required for in vivo bacterial growth. Thus, the genes required for the growth of M.i.27 and M.i.198 in mouse lungs are enriched individually with those involved in hypoxic pellicle formation in ATCC13950, and with the gene sets found critical for in vitro growth. We have added the description of the reanalyzed data of GSEA in the manuscript (pages 16-17, lines 287-290). And the details of reanalyzed data of GSEA have been shown in Supplementary Fig. 5 and 6 as well as Supplementary Tables 15 and 16.

      (4) Validation of mouse infection experiments with individual mutants is missing.

      Thank you for the suggestion on the validation of the TnSeq hit genes on the in vivo survival. We acknowledge the importance of validating the TnSeq-hit genes by constructing knockout mutants. We have recently succeeded in constructing the vectors for making knockout strains of M. intracellulare (Tateishi. Microbiol Immunol. 2024). We will proceed to the infection experiment of knockout mutants by using our system for constructing them.

      [Reference]

      Tateishi Y. et al. Construction of knockout mutants in Mycobacterium intracellulare ATCC13950 strain using a thermosensitive plasmid containing negative selection marker rpsL. Microbiol Immunol 68, 339-347 (2024).

      (5) Phenotypes with TnSeq and CRISPRi-based KD exhibit poor correlation with misleading justifications by the authors.

      Thank you for the comment on the issue of inconsistent results between TnSeq and CRISPR-i based knockdown. We acknowledge that some inconsistencies were observed, particularly among strain-dependent/accessory essential or growth-defect-associated genes. By contrast, we found consistent data between TnSeq and CRISPR-i based knockdown results among universal essential genes such as glcB, inhA, gyrB and embB. Although the mechanism has not been fully proven yet, we consider that such inconsistent phenotypes with TnSeq and CRISPR- based knockdown may be related to the recently revealed bypass mechanism of gene essentiality which is characteristically observed in strain-specific/accessory essential genes (Rosconi F. Nat Micorbiol. 2022; new Ref#14). They suggested this bypass mechanism of gene essentiality in strain-dependent/accessory essential or growth-defect-associated genes from the ‘forced-evolution experiments’ of 36 clinical Streptococcus pneumoniae strains. For example, knockout mutants are successfully recovered from transformation experiments targeting strain-specific/accessory essential genes in TnSeq such as cytidine monophosphate kinase cmk, formate tetrahydrofolate ligase fhs and farnesyl-diphosphate synthase fpp. The bypassing of gene essentiality can be suggested by observing suppressor mutations and synthetic lethality in knockout strains. By contrast, universal essential genes fulfill the following three categories: i) high levels of conservation within and often across species, iii) limited genetic diversity, and iii) high and stable expression levels. Consequently, the universal essential genes are rigid, largely immutable key components to an organism’s survival. In the universal essential genes, the knockout recovery fails as shown by no colonies or only appearance of merodiploids. Taking into consideration such bypass mechanism of gene essentiality in strain-dependent/accessory essential genes, the lower effect of gene silencing of strain-dependent/accessory essential genes on bacterial growth may reflect pathway rewiring that helps the bacterial growth under suppression of the target gene expression.

      We have added the description of the possible reason for inconsistency between TnSeq and CRISPR-i results in the Result and Discussion in the revised manuscript (page 21, lines 367-376; pages 28-29, lines 489-519).

      [Reference]

      Rosconi, F. et al. A bacterial pan-genome makes gene essentiality strain-dependent and evolvable. Nat Microbiol 7, 1580–1592 (2022).

      In summary, this study is unable to provide mechanistic insights into why and how different MAC-PD mutant strains exhibit differential survival (in vitro and in animals) and adaptation to hypoxia. It remains to understand why the clinical strains show better adaptation to hypoxia and what is the impact of other stresses on their growth rates.

      Thank you for the comments on the issue of being unable to prove the mechanism of MAC-PD pathogenesis and adaptation to hypoxia. We admit that the original manuscript did not provide the apparent reason and mechanism of MAC-PD pathogenesis and adaptation to hypoxia. Following the comment, we have modified the manuscript tile as “Functional genomics reveals strain-specific genetic requirements conferring hypoxic growth in Mycobacterium intracellulare”.

      However, we revealed the diversity of genetic requirements among the genus M. intracellulare including the type strain ATCC13950 and clinical MAC-PD strains. We revealed the characteristics of genetic requirements in clinical MAC-PD strains as increased genetic requirements of gluconeogenesis, type VII secretion system and cysteine desulfurase, the former two of which are also required in hypoxic pellicle formation in ATCC13950. Along with this, we demonstrated the difference of growth behavior under hypoxia between clinical MAC-PD strains and ATCC13950. Overall, we consider that we could provide the basic information suggesting the involvement of difference of genetic requirements among strains in the pathogenesis of MAC-PD.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The study by Tateishi et al. utilized TnSeq in nine genetically diverse M. intracellulare strains, identifying 131 common essential and growth-defect-associated genes across those strains, which could serve as potential drug targets. The authors also provided an overview of the differences in gene essentiality required for hypoxic growth between the reference strain and the clinical strains. Furthermore, they validated the universal and accessory/strain-dependent essential genes by knocking down their expression using CRISPRi technique. Overall, this study offers a comprehensive assessment of gene requirements in different clinical strains of M. intracellular.

      Thank you for reviewing our manuscript and finding the significance of our data.

      (1) The rationale for using ATCC13950 versus clinical strains needs to be clarified. The reference strain ATCC13950 was obtained from the abdominal lymph node of a patient around 10 years ago and is therefore considered a clinical strain that has undergone passages in vitro. How many mutations have accumulated during these in vitro passages? Are these mutations significant enough to cause the behavior of ATCC13950 to differ from other recently sampled clinical strains? From the phylogenetic tree, ATCC13950 is located between M018 and M.i.27. Did the authors observe a similarity in gene essentiality between ATCC13950 and its neighbor strains? What is the key feature that separates ATCC13950 from these clinical strains? The authors should provide a strong rationale for how to interpret the results of this comparison in a clinical or biological context.

      Thank you for the comments on the rationale for using ATCC13950 versus clinical strains and the key feature that separates ATCC13950 from clinical MAC-PD strains.

      ATCC13950 was isolated in 1949, (not around 10 years ago) from 34-month-old female abdominal lymph node (Cuttino. Am J Pathol 1949; new Ref#11). Of note, the clinical background of the patient infected with ATCC13950 is quite different from the patients with MAC-pulmonary disease (MAC-PD), the incidence rate of which has been increasing worldwide without predisposing immunological disorders. ATCC13950 has been regarded as a type strain of genus M. intracellulare historically. And ATCC13950 is the first M. intracellulare strain to be sequenced in 2012 (Kim. J Bacteriol 2012; new Ref#59).

      The rationale for using ATCC13950 versus clinical MAC-PD strains is to find the answer to the question whether the essential genes and genetic requirements are similar or different between clinical MAC-PD strains and historical type strain ATCC13950. So far, there are two reports on TnSeq that compare genetic requirements between clinical mycobacterial strains and the type strains, one of which is M. tuberculosis (Carey AF. PLoS Pathogens. 2018; new Ref#8) and the other is M. abscessus (Akusobi C. mBio. 2025; new Ref#9, published after submission of our manuscript). They reported the difference and diversity of genetic requirements between clinical strain and type strains such as M. tuberculosis H37Rv and M. abscessus ATCC19977. We have added the mention of these previous reports to explain the rationale for setting the type strain ATCC13950 as a referential control strain. (page 5, lines 83-87)

      The genetic and functional analysis of clinical MAC-PD strains has not been conducted for a long time. In 2021, we have revealed the genomic diversity between clinical MAC-PD and ATCC13950 by comparative genomic analysis (Tateishi BMC Microbiol. 2021; new Ref#5). Except for our TnSeq study of ATCC13950 (Tateishi Sci Rep 2020; new Ref#10), no functional analysis has been conducted in clinical M. intracellulare strains. On our research stream of clinical MAC-PD strains, we expected that we could reveal the functional genomic characteristics of clinical MAC-PD strains by setting ATCC13950 as a referential control strain for analyzing TnSeq data.

      It seems an interesting viewpoint to consider the relationship between accumulation of mutations by in vitro passages during prolonged periods from first isolation in ATCC13950, and the difference of phenotypes between ATCC13950 and recently sampled clinical MAC-PD strains. However, there are no time-course samples of ATCC13950 isolates available. Therefore, we can neither investigate how many mutations have accumulated in a time-course manner, nor evaluate how much the accumulated mutations influence the phenotype in ATCC13950. It can be expected that the accumulation of in vitro mutations may cause the behavior of ATCC13950 different from clinical MAC-PD strains. However, it is to be elucidated yet which kinds of factors contribute to the characteristics of ATCC13950 that differ from clinical MAC-PD strains specifically.

      It seems an interesting viewpoint to investigate the similarity of gene essentiality between genetical neighbor strains. However, we focused on the overview of the profiles of gene essentiality in clinical MAC-PD strains compared to ATCC13950. Thus, it was out of scope to elucidate the details of gene essentiality in each genetic phylogeny that clinical MAC-PD strains belong. The overview of phylogenetic trees should be referred to our previous publication on the comparative genomic analysis of 55 strains (Tateishi Y. BMC Microbiol. 2021; new Ref#5, new Supplementary Fig. 1), and we have shown Fig. 1 as the extracted phylogenetic tree of subject strains. To elucidate the details of gene essentiality in each genetic clade, it would be necessary to include a considerable number of strains that we used for comparative genomic analysis in 2021 (Tateishi Y. BMC Microbiol. 2021; new Ref#5). Furthermore, it would be necessary to set a referential control strain other than ATCC13950 for comparing gene essentiality. So far, it is not the highest priority for us to elucidate the similarity of gene essentiality between phylogenetic clades in detail, and such investigation will be planned as a future study.

      The key features that separate ATCC13950 and clinical MAC-PD strains have not been proved yet, in contrast to the case of M. tuberculosis such as mutations in the gene of the response regulator PhoPR in the type strain H37Rv vs most clinical strains. However, the features that separate ATCC13950 and clinical MAC-PD strains may not be explained by a single genetic factor but may be explained by complicated factors such as epigenetic and/or regulatory factors. For example, the reason for the weakened virulence of H37Ra compared to H37Rv has not been able to be explained by simple genetic differences (Brosch R. Infect Immun. 1999).

      In summary, we set the historical type strain ATCC13950 which is derived from infant abdominal lymphadenitis as a referential control strain for TnSeq analysis, because we intended to reveal the characteristics of clinical MAC-PD strains in terms of the gene essentiality and genetic requirements by comparing the clinical MAC-PD strains with the non-MAC-PD reference strain. We consider that the profiles of gene essentiality and genetic requirements specific to clinical MAC-PD strains confer the pathogenesis in an increasing number of MAC-PD patients worldwide without predisposing immunological disorders.

      [References]

      Cuttino, J.T. & Mc, C.A. Pure granulomatous nocardiosis, a new fungus disease distinguished by intracellular parasitism; a description of a new disease in man due to a hitherto undescribed organism, Nocardia intracellularis, n. sp., including a study of the biologic and pathogenic properties of this species. Am J Pathol 25, 1-47 (1949).

      Kim, B.J. et al. Complete genome sequence of Mycobacterium intracellulare clinical strain MOTT-64, belonging to the INT1 genotype. J Bacteriol 194, 3268 (2012).

      Carey, A.F. et al. TnSeq of Mycobacterium tuberculosis clinical isolates reveals strain-specific antibiotic liabilities. PLoS Pathog 14, e1006939 (2018).

      Akusobi. C. et al.. Transposon-sequencing across multiple Mycobacterium abscessus isolates reveals significant functional genomic diversity among strains. mBio 6, e0337624 (2025).

      Tateishi, Y. et al. Comparative genomic analysis of Mycobacterium intracellulare: implications for clinical taxonomic classification in pulmonary Mycobacterium avium-intracellulare complex disease. BMC Microbiol 21, 103 (2021).

      Tateishi, Y. et al. Genome-wide identification of essential genes in Mycobacterium intracellulare by transposon sequencing - Implication for metabolic remodeling. Sci Rep 10, 5449 (2020)

      Brosch R. et al. Genomic analysis reveals variation between Mycobacterium tuberculosis H37Rv and the attenuated M. tuberculosis H37Ra strain. Infect Immun. 67, 5768-74 (1999).

      (2) Regarding the 'nine representative strains of M. intracellulare with diverse genotypes in this study,' how were these nine strains selected? To what extent do they represent the genetic diversity of the M. intracellulare population? A phylogenetic tree illustrating the global genetic diversity of the M. intracellulare population, with these strains marked on it, would be important to demonstrate their genetic representativeness.

      Thank you for the comments on the selection of 9 subject strains. We selected the 9 strains based on the phylogenetic tree we published in 2021 (BMC Microbiol 2021; new Ref#5). We have shown the global phylogenetic tree of the M. intracellulare population in new supplementary Fig. 1. We have selected 4 or 5 strains from the major two groups (typical M. intracellulare group and M. paraintracellulare-M. indicus pranii group) for this TnSeq study, respectively.

      [Reference]

      Tateishi, Y. et al. Comparative genomic analysis of Mycobacterium intracellulare: implications for clinical taxonomic classification in pulmonary Mycobacterium avium-intracellulare complex disease. BMC Microbiol 21, 103 (2021).

      (3) The authors observed a considerable amount of differential gene requirements in clinical strains. However, the genetic underpinning underlying the differential requirement of genes in clinical strains was not investigated or discussed. Because M. intracellulare has a huge number of accessory genes, the authors should at least check whether the differential requirement could be explained by the existence of a second copy of functional analogous genes or duplications.

      Thank you for the comments on the effect of gene duplication on the change of genetic requirements between strains. Following the comments, we conducted blast search for the 162 genes showing increased Tn insertion reads in each subject strain. We found that M019 has duplicate genes of OCU_RS44705 coding adenosylhomocysteinase (LOCUS_42940: ahcY_1, LOCUS_21000: ahcY_2). However, there were no duplicate genes found in the remaining 161 genes showing increased Tn insertion reads.

      From these results, we consider that gene duplication has minor effects on the change of genetic requirements between strains. Rather, sequence differences and accessory genes may play a key role in determining the difference of genetic requirements.

      We have added a description of the above-mentioned result in the Result section (pages11-12, lines 191-199).

      (4) Growth in aerobic and hypoxic conditions: The authors concluded that clinical strains are better adapted to hypoxia, as reflected by their earlier entry into the log phase. They presented the 'Time at midpoint' and 'Growth rate at midpoint.' However, after reviewing the growth curves, I noticed that ATCC13950 had a longer lag phase compared to other strains under hypoxic conditions, and its phylogenetic neighbor M018 also had a longer lag phase. Hence, I do not believe a conclusion can be drawn that clinical strains are better adapted to hypoxia, as this behavior could be specific to a particular clade. It's also possible that the ATCC13950 strain has adapted to aerobic growth. I would suggest that the authors include growth curves in the main figures. The difference in 'Time at midpoint' could be attributed to several factors, and visualizing the growth curves would provide additional context and clarity.

      Thank you for the comments on the possibility of genotypes as a determinant of growth pattern in M. intracelulare. Following the comments, we performed aerobic and hypoxic growth assay in the two strains (M005 and M016) that neighbor ATCC13950.

      Author response image 1.

      The phylogenetic relationship between M005, M016 and ATCC13950. The former two strains are squared in blue.

      M005 reached midpoint later than ATCC13950 both in aerobic and hypoxic conditions. By contrast, M016 reached midpoint three quarters earlier than ATCC13950 under hypoxic conditions. The growth rate was not significantly different between M005, M016 or ATCC13950 under either aerobic or hypoxic conditions, although P-value of M005 vs ATCC13950 was 0.0512 under aerobic conditions on Steel’s multiple comparisons test.

      From the data of growth pattern in M005 and M016, we suggest that in addition to gene essentiality, genotypes may have some impact on the bacterial growth pattern under hypoxia; however, since there was a significant difference in the timing of hypoxic adaptation among ATCC13950 and its neighbor strains, bacterial growth pattern under hypoxia is considered to be determined by multiple factors such as genetic requirements and unproven regulatory systems. Taking into consideration that there are lots of genetically diverse strains other than ATCC13950 clade, many clinical MAC-PD strains are possibly better adapted to hypoxia.

      Responding to the reviewer’s recommendation, we have added the description of the above-mentioned result in the revised manuscript (page 18, lines 313-322). And we have shown the data of growth curves of the original 9 subject strains in the new Fig 7. And we have added the data of the growth curves of M005 and M016 in new Supplementary Fig 7. Additionally, we have corrected the label of y-axis in new Fig. 7a and new Supplementary Fig. 7a and added the description as “Data are represented as CFUs in 4 μl sample at each timepoint.” in the Figure legends. (page 58, lines 1027-1028 and Supplementary Fig. 7a legend)

      (5) Lack of statistical statement: The authors emphasized the role of pellicle-formation-associated genes in strain-dependent essential and accessory essential genes. Additionally, the authors observed that 10% of the genes required for mouse infection are also required for hypoxic pellicle formation. However, these are merely descriptive statements. There is no enrichment analysis to justify whether pellicle-formation-associated genes are significantly enriched in these groups.

      Thank you for the comments on the enrichment of pellicle-formation associated genes in strain-dependent essential and accessory essential genes. We performed GSEA and found that 9.1% (16 out of 175) genes were hit as core enrichment. Of them, 4 genes were hit commonly as genes showing increased genetic requirements analyzed by resampling plus HMM analyses including genes of phosphoenolpyruvate carboxykinase pckA (OCU_RS48660), type VII secretion-associated serine protease mycP5 (OCU_RS38275), type VII secretion protein eccC5 (OCU_RS38345) and glycine cleavage system amino-methyltransferase gcvT (OCU_RS35955).

      Author response image 2.

      We have added the description of GSEA result in the revised manuscript (page 8, lines 137-144; Supplementary Fig. 2; Supplementary Table 5).

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Tn-seq and hypoxia adaption in clinical isolates of M. intracellulare (Mi): The authors claim that clinical strains are better adapted to hypoxia because their genetic requirements for optimum fitness overlap with genetic requirements for fitness of the type strain under hypoxia. This is a reasonable hypothesis, but it has not been well-supported by the data presented in Figure 7. The growth rates (Figure 7b) of most of the clinical strains under hypoxia appear to be less than the type strain, although they all seem to grow better than the type strain under normoxia. Perhaps a continuous growth curve of each strain, both as pure and mixed cultures under these conditions will provide a clearer picture.

      Thank you for the comments on the difference of adaptation of hypoxic growth between ATCC13950 and MAC-PD strains. To clarify, growth rates shown in Figure 7 were calculated at the inflection point (midpoint) of the growth curves, which were modeled using a four-parameter logistic (4P logistic) model. As described in the Discussion, we found the pattern of hypoxic adaptation characteristics of the clinical MAC-PD strains from the growth curve forms. Taking into consideration the impact of growing bacteria on the disease progression of MAC-PD, the slow growth with early entry to log phase implicates the continuous impact on the infected hosts during logarithmic bacterial growth, which may be involved in the persistent and steadily progressive illness of MAC-PD for years in humans.

      Unlike time-lapse imaging assay, the completely seamless sampling of cultures for CFU assay is impossible. Nevertheless, we collected sufficient timepoints to allow reliable curve fitting with the 4P logistic model, and thus consider our growth data to represent a valid approximation of continuous growth dynamics.

      Regarding the suggestion of mixed culture experiments, we agree that such studies could be informative. However, co-culture conditions introduce additional variables, including inter-strain competition or synergy, which can obscure the specific contributions of hypoxic adaptation in each strain. Therefore, we believe that the current approach using monoculture growth curves under defined oxygen conditions offers a clearer interpretation of strain-specific hypoxic responses.

      In vivo studies: It is unclear how virulent the two clinical strains, Mi27 and Mi198 are in the mouse model. The CFU data in Figure S1b reports the bacterial burden of the Tn libraries of the two strains, of which the overall population of Mi27 library seems to be declining. Without any information on the CFU, animal survival, and tissue pathology from the pure strains, data from the library will have limited implications.

      Thank you for the comments on the data presentation of in vivo studies. We previously revealed the time-course data on CFUs, animal survival, and tissue pathology from the pure strains (Tateishi Y. BMC Microbiol. 2023; new Ref#22). Based on these data, we assumed that we would be able to harvest sufficient number of colonies from mice infected with M.i.27 or M.i.198, and we performed in vivo TnSeq studies using these two strains. We have referred to our previous publication on the virulence of MAC-PD pure strains used in this study for mice in the revised manuscript (page 12, line 212; new Ref #22).

      The data of CFU counts were shown in new Supplementary Figure 3b. In the manuscript text, we explained as follows (page 12, lines 212-216): “The time course of the changes in the bacterial burden showed a pattern similar to those of the wild-type strains M.i.198 and M.i.27, respectively (Tateishi Y. BMC Microbiol. 2023; new Ref#22), except that it was not possible to harvest sufficient colonies (as few as 104/mouse) in the few mice infected with the M.i.27 Tn mutant strain in week 8 and week 16 (new Supplementary Fig, 3b, new Supplementary Table 8)”. The decline of overall population of M.i.27 Tn mutant library strains in the infected lungs can be explained by the lower virulence of M.i.27 pure strain that shows intermediate virulence phenotype than M.i.198 that shows high virulence phenotype.

      [References]

      Tateishi, Y. et al. Virulence of Mycobacterium intracellulare clinical strains in a mouse model of lung infection - role of neutrophilic inflammation in disease severity. BMC Microbiol 23, 94 (2023).

      Data presentation: The manuscript suffers from a lack of clarity in data visualization and presentation, especially the Tn-Seq datasets. Panels describe the experimental workflow with a densely-worded paragraph, making it difficult to navigate through the major findings.

      Thank you for the comments on the issue of Fig. 1b. Following the suggestion, we have modified the new Fig. 1b entitled “Strategy of the procedure of TnSeq analyses”.

      Language: The paper should be extensively revised for language. Often the authors have mixed-up the terms like 'core' and 'accessory' 'genes' in lines 116-119 with 'core and accessory genomes' in Figure 2c, which is not even mentioned in the paper. It is further unclear how they identified 3153 and 5824 core and accessory genes, respectively, from 55 different strains of Mi. Line 251: ..."involved by confer..." needs revision. The terms "increased gene essentiality" and 'growth-defected associated genes" are very confusing. The essentiality of a gene is either absolute or conditional but is not quantitative. Similarly, 'growth-defect associated' can be replaced with a better phrase that alludes to fitness loss in the clone. Additional typos were found throughout the paper that need to be fixed.

      Thank you for the comments on the issue of scientific words including “'core and accessory genomes” and “gene essentiality” used in this study.

      Based on Rosconi’s paper (Panel C of Fig. 1 in Nat Microbiol. 2022; new Ref#14), we used the phrases “accessory genome and core genome” as a meaning of a whole set of genes belonging to accessory and core genes. To avoid the confusion and keep consistency, we replaced the term “genomes” to “genes” in the revised manuscript.

      In our previous comparative genomic analysis, we identified 3153 and 5824 core and accessory genes, respectively, from 55 different strains of M. intracellulare (Tateishi Y. BMC Microbiol. 2021; new Ref #5). To perform pangenomic analysis, we used the software Bacterial Pan-Genome Analysis tool (BGAP) (Narendrakumar NM. Sci Rep 2016).

      We admit that gene essentiality is a qualitative but not a quantitative trait. We have corrected the term "increased gene essentiality" as "increased genetic requirements" throughout the manuscript.

      We have used the term “growth-defect (GD)” based on the classification of gene essentiality calculated by the Hidden Markov Model (HMM) complied by TRANSIT software (DeJesus. PLoS Comput Biol. 2015; new Ref#12). The HMM classifies genes as essential (ES), GD, non-essential (NE), growth-advantage (GA). GD means difficulties of growth (growth deficiency) in aerobic conditions in vitro, because Tn insertions are less frequent. The suggested phrases “fitness loss” or “less fit” may include the meaning of the comparison of two different conditions such as culture conditions exposed to a single bacterial strain. Since the HMM analysis is performed in data of a single strain in a specific bacterial condition, we consider that the phrase including “fitness” is somewhat unsuitable for describing the classification of gene essentiality. Thus, it is difficult for us to rephrase GD to the word that implies fitness levels between two conditions in a single bacterial strain.

      [References]

      Rosconi, F. et al. A bacterial pan-genome makes gene essentiality strain-dependent and evolvable. Nat Microbiol 7, 1580–1592 (2022).

      Tateishi, Y. et al. Comparative genomic analysis of Mycobacterium intracellulare: implications for clinical taxonomic classification in pulmonary Mycobacterium avium-intracellulare complex disease. BMC Microbiol 21, 103 (2021).

      Narendrakumar NM et al. BPGA- an ultra-fast pan-genome analysis pipeline. Sci Rep 2016 6, 24373 (2016).

      DeJesus, M.A. et al. TRANSIT--A Software Tool for Himar1 TnSeq Analysis. PLoS Comput Biol 11, e1004401 (2015).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Major Comments:

      (1) Result 1 (Page 6-7): Common essential and growth-defect-associated genes representing the genomic diversity of M. intracellulare strains.

      (1a) From Table S1, it is observed that the numbers of Tn-inserted TA sites significantly vary (p >0.05) among biological replicates for each strain when compared with the reference strain ATCC13950. the authors should provide an explanation of how they overcame this variation in their analysis.

      Thank you for the comment on the issue of a variable number of Tn-inserted TA sites among biological replicates for each strain of MAC-PD.

      On TRANSIT software, we set the replicate option as Sum to combine read counts. And we used Beta-Geometric correction (BGC) to normalize the datasets to fit an “ideal” geometric distribution with a variable probability parameter ρ.

      Following the comment, we have added the description on which option we used for handling the replicate data and normalization (page 36, lines 640-643).

      (1b) Importantly, saturation in most of the strains is only ~50-60%. In such a case, there will be a high probability that Tn will not hit a nonessential region due to chance instead of selection (See DeJasus et al., mBio, 2017). It has been observed that the sequence pattern (GC)GNTANC(GC) is strongly associated with non-permissiveness. As shown earlier, the authors need to carefully look for the potential non-permissive sites before concluding the fate of a gene. Also, they should acknowledge the potential limitations of their approach due to the suboptimal level of saturation.

      Thank you for the comment on the saturation of Tn mutant libraries. Our method of comparison of genetic requirements between strains are the same as a previous report that used duplicate Tn mutant libraries of clinical Mtb strains of different genotypes and triplicate Tn mutant libraries of H37Rv for identifying increased genetic requirements of clinical Mtb strains (Carey. PLoS Pathog 2018; new Ref#8). Our method is also based on the coauthor’s TnSeq study on H37Rv (Minato Y. mSystems 2019; new Ref#61). Moreover, by combining replicates, the saturation of our Tn mutant libraries became 62-79% as follows: ATCC13950: 67.6%, M001: 72.9%, M003: 63.0%, M018: 62.4%, M019: 74.5%, M.i.27: 76.6%, M.i.198: 68.0%, MOTT64: 77.6%, M021: 79.9%. That is, we calculated gene essentiality from the Tn mutant libraries with 62-79% saturation in each strain. The levels of saturation of transposon libraries in our study is similar to the very recent TnSeq anlaysis by Akusobi where 52-80% saturation libraries (so-called “high-density” transposon libraries) are used for HMM and resampling analyses (Supplemental Methods Table 1[merged saturation] in Akusobi. mBio. 2025; new Ref#9). The saturation of Tn insertion in individual replicates of our libraries is also comparable to that reported by DeJesus (Table S1 in mBio 2017; new Ref#57). Thus, we consider that our TnSeq method of identifying essential genes and detecting the difference of genetic requirements between clinical MAC-PD strains and ATCC13950 is acceptable.

      As the Reviewer indicates, there is non-permissive sequence pattern in mariner transposon mutagenesis. Using more than 10 replicates of Tn mutant libraries is quite an accurate method for detecting essential genes in nonstructural small genes such as small regulatory RNAs. However, as DeJesus shows, the number essential genes identified by TnSeq are comparable in large genes possessing more than 10 TA sites between 2 and 14 TnSeq datasets, most of which seem to be structural genes (Supplementary Fig 2 in mBio 2017; new Ref#57). Thus, we do not consider that we made a serious mistake for the classification of essentiality in most of the structural genes that encode proteins. With respect to the coverage of non-permissive sites, our TnSeq method might need to be improved if it is intended to classify the gene essentiality quite accurately on the small genes including small regulatory RNAs.

      We investigated the non-permissive TA sites in ATCC13950. There are 4136 (6.43% of total ORFs) nonpermissive TA sites in ATCC13950, which is less than in H37Rv (9% of total ORFs) (DeJesus MA. mBio 20171; new Ref#57) and in M. abscessus ATCC19977 (8.1% of total ORFs)(Rifat D. mBio. 2021; new Ref#58). As for larger ORFs (TA sites > = 10), there are nonpermissive TA sites in 89 genes (ORFs) of common “essential (ES)” or “growth-defect-associated (GD)” (4.82% of a total of 1844 larger ORFs in ATCC13950). As for small ORFs (2-9 TA sites), there are nonpermissive TA sites in 41 genes (ORFs) of common ES or GD (1.35% of a total of 3021 smaller ORFs in ATCC13950).

      We appreciate the idea of concluding the fate of gene essentiality by the presence/absence of non-permissive TA sites. However, we cannot conclude the fate of gene essentiality classification only by the presence/absence of potential non-permissive sites. Because, strictly to say, it is impossible to conclude the scientific truth of gene essentiality without functional analysis using gene manipulation. In accurate, TnSeq can “predict” the gene essentiality but cannot perfectly guarantee the functional significance. However, in the current situation, most of the recent TnSeq studies have been published only by the TnSeq analysis without functional analysis that uses gene manipulation strains of all targets they identified. Taking such limitations of TnSeq including non-permissive sites into consideration, we consider that the essentiality of the detected genes should be determined in further studies, mainly including biological experiments such as functional studies using gene manipulation strains.

      We have added the above-mentioned contents in the revised manuscript (pages 32-33, lines 559-580).

      [References]

      Carey, A.F. et al. TnSeq of Mycobacterium tuberculosis clinical isolates reveals strain-specific antibiotic liabilities. PLoS Pathog 14, e1006939 (2018).

      Minato, Y., et al. Genomewide assessment of Mycobacterium tuberculosis conditionally essential metabolic pathways. mSystems. 4, e00070-192019 (2019).

      Akusobi. C. et al. Transposon-sequencing across multiple Mycobacterium abscessus isolates reveals significant functional genomic diversity among strains. mBio 6, e0337624 (2025).

      DeJesus, M.A. et al. Comprehensive essentiality analysis of the Mycobacterium tuberculosis genome via saturating transposon mutagenesis. mBio 8, e02133-16 (2017).

      Rifat, D., Chen L., Kreiswirth, B.N. & Nuermberger, E.L.. Genome-wide essentiality analysis of Mycobacterium abscessus by saturated transposon mutagenesis and deep sequencing. mBio 12, e0104921 (2021).

      (1c) Line 100: Authors report a total of 131 genes identified as essential or growth-defect-associated with the HMM analysis across all M. intracellulare strains. It should be explained in more detail how gene essentiality was determined (see above comment in (1b)). Furthermore, in Table S3 authors should mention the essential and growth defective trait of each of the 131 genes.

      Thank you for the comment on how to classify the 131 genes as essential or growth-defect-associated with the HMM analysis across all M. intracellulare strains. As replied in (1b), the average saturation of Tn insertion of our libraries became 62-79% when combining duplicate or triplicate data in each strain. The levels of saturation of transposon libraries in our study is similar to the very recent TnSeq analysis by Akusobi where 52-80% saturation libraries (so-called “high-density” transposon libraries) were used for HMM and resampling analyses, and most of triplicate libraries ranges 70-79% saturation (Supplemental Methods Table 1[merged saturation] in Akusobi. mBio. 2025; new Ref#9). The saturation of Tn insertion in individual replicates of our libraries is also comparable to those with DeJesus (Table S1 in mBio 2017; new Ref#57). Thus, we consider that our TnSeq libraries are acceptable for identifying essential genes and growth-defect-associated genes by the HMM method.

      We used the HMM method as reported by DeJesus (DeJesus. PLoS Comput Biol. 2015; new Ref#12). HMM method can categorize the gene essentiality throughout the genome including “Essential”, “Growth-defect”, “Non-essential” and “Growth-advantage”. “Essential” genes are defined as no insertions in all or most of their TA sites. “Non-essential” genes are defined as regions that have usual read counts. “Growth-defect” genes are defined as regions that have unusually low read counts. “Growth-advantage” genes are defined as regions that have unusually high low read counts.

      Following the previous report (Carey AF. PLos Pathog 2018; new Ref#8), the annotation for the clinical MAC-PD strains was adapted from that of ATCC13950 by adjusting the START and END coordinates of each ORF in the clinical MAC-PD strains according to their alignment with the corresponding ORFs of ATCC13950. By using an adjusted annotation table, gene essentiality was classified by the HMM analysis.

      We have added the explanation of how we identified essential and growth-defect-associated genes in the Methods (pages 35-36, lines 620-632). And following the comment, we have added the data of classification of gene essentiality in the 131 genes in the new Supplementary Table 3 in the revised manuscript.

      [Reference]

      DeJesus, M.A. et al. TRANSIT--A Software Tool for Himar1 TnSeq Analysis. PLoS Comput Biol 11, e1004401 (2015).

      Carey, A.F. et al. TnSeq of Mycobacterium tuberculosis clinical isolates reveals strain-specific antibiotic liabilities. PLoS Pathog 14, e1006939 (2018).

      Akusobi. C. et al. Transposon-sequencing across multiple Mycobacterium abscessus isolates reveals significant functional genomic diversity among strains. mBio 6, e0337624 (2025).

      DeJesus, M.A. et al. Comprehensive essentiality analysis of the Mycobacterium tuberculosis genome via saturating transposon mutagenesis. mBio 8, e02133-16 (2017).

      (1d) In Table S4, the authors show strain-specific putative essential genes from the core and accessory gene sets. For the sake of clarity, it is important to have the name of all the strains against each gene in which it is predicted essential or growth defective.

      Thank you for the comment on the hit strains on the genes classified as strain-specific and accessory putative essential of growth-defect associated. Following the comment, we have added the data of hit strains in the new Supplementary Table 4 in the revised manuscript.

      (1e) Lines 123-126: It is not clear what is the relevance of highlighting genes involved in hypoxic pellicle formation in ATCC13950. These appear to be randomly distributed across different clinical isolates and is not clear whether they correlate with differential susceptibility of the reference strain and clinical isolates to hypoxia.

      Thank you for the comment on the relevance of highlighting genes involved in hypoxic pellicle formation in ATCC13950. The rationale for the importance of hypoxic pellicle genes in clinical MAC-PD strains is that the profiles of genetic requirements in each bacterial strain reflect the adaptation to the environment in which each strain lives. When the strains are placed in a special environment, they can adapt to the situation by altering the profiles of genetic requirements, resulting in the remodeling of metabolic pathways. We indeed found that the genetic requirements of several hypoxic pellicle genes were increased in clinical MAC-PD strains in vitro situations. These data suggest the hypoxic pellicle genes become more important in clinical MAC-PD strains for in vitro growth than in ATCC13950.

      Moreover, hypoxia is known to be one of the characteristic conditions in vivo including clinical lesions (McKeown. Br Br J Radiol. 2014). We consider it reasonable to expect that the strains derived from MAC-PD patients without predisposing immunological disorders may adapt under hypoxic conditions for maintaining bacterial survival. Therefore, we highlighted the genes involved in hypoxic pellicle formation in ATCC13950.

      We have added the description of the rationale for the importance of hypoxic pellicle genes in clinical MAC-PD strains in the revised manuscript (page 9, lines 148-155).<br /> [Reference]

      McKeown, S.R., et al. Defining normoxia, physoxia and hypoxia in tumours-implications for treatment response. Br Br J Radiol 87,: 20130676 (2014).

      (2) Result 2 (pages 8-10): Genes with increased gene essentiality in clinical MAC-PD strains are also required for hypoxic pellicle formation in the type strain.

      (2a) As reported by authors (lines 123-126), only a small fraction of genes showing essentiality in clinical MAC-PD strains are required for hypoxic pellicle formation in the reference strain, which might be due to random distribution. Authors should avoid making such a generalised statement that reflects the association of the entire essential gene pool in clinical MAC-PD strains with hypoxic pellicle formation.

      Thank you for the comment on the issue of a small fraction of genes showing increased genetic requirements in clinical MAC-PD strains that is shared with genes required for hypoxic pellicle formation in the type strain ATCC13950. We admit that the section title may mislead that the genes required for hypoxic pellicle formation confer the entire essential gene pool of clinical MAC-PD strains. Following the comment, we have revised the section title as “Partial overlap of the genes showing increased genetic requirements in clinical MAC-PD strains with those required for hypoxic pellicle formation in ATCC13950” (page 9, lines 146-147).

      We consider that it cannot be explained by a mere coincidence that we obtained the data of partial overlap of genes showing essentiality in clinical MAC-PD strains with genes required for hypoxic pellicle formation in ATCC13950, because we demonstrated the supporting data such as the pattern of genetic requirements suggesting gluconeogenic metabolic shift (Fig. 5) and the different pattern of hypoxic growth curves between clinical MAC-PD strains and ATCC13950 (Fig. 7).

      (2b) I fail to understand how the number of Tn insertions determines "more" or "less" essentiality of a gene particularly with 50-60% saturation. To my understanding, essentiality is a qualitative trait. Either a gene will be essential (based on no Tn insertion despite having the permissive sites), critical (poor representation of Tn insertions at the permissive sites due to growth defect of the strain in the pool), non-essential (expected frequency of insertion) or growth-advantageous (higher representation of Tn insertions at the permissive sites due to growth advantage of the strain in the pool). Hence, authors should avoid quantifying the essentiality of a gene.

      Thank you for the comments on the trait of gene essentiality. We realize that essentiality is a qualitative trait, not a quantitative trait. Taking into consideration the number of Tn insertions determines "more" or "less" requirements of a gene, we have corrected the manuscript by using the phrase “genetic requirements” instead of “gene essentiality”.

      As mentioned earlier, our method of comparison of genetic requirements between strains are the same as a previous report that used duplicate Tn mutant libraries of clinical Mtb strains of different genotypes and triplicate Tn mutant libraries of H37Rv for identifying increased genetic requirements of clinical Mtb strains (Carey AF. PLoS Pathog 2018; new Ref#8). Moreover, as described in rebuttal (1b), the saturation of our Tn mutant libraries by combining replicates are 62-79% as follows: ATCC13950: 67.6%, M001: 72.9%, M003: 63.0%, M018: 62.4%, M019: 74.5%, M.i.27: 76.6%, M.i.198: 68.0%, MOTT64: 77.6%, M021: 79.9%. That is, we calculated gene essentiality from the Tn mutant libraries with 62-79% saturation in each strain. The levels of saturation of transposon libraries in our study is similar to the recent TnSeq analysis by Akusobi where 52-80% saturation libraries (“high-density” transposon libraries) were used for HMM and resampling analyses (Supplemental Methods Table 1[merged saturation] in Akusobi C. mBio. 2025; new Ref#9).

      Thus, we consider that our data of the difference of genetic requirements between clinical MAC-PD strains and ATCC13950 are acceptable.

      [Reference]

      Akusobi. C. et al. Transposon-sequencing across multiple Mycobacterium abscessus isolates reveals significant functional genomic diversity among strains. mBio 6, e0337624 (2025).

      (2c) From Figures 3-4, it seems the authors intend to highlight the insertion frequencies of certain genes in the clinical isolates compared to those in the reference strain to conclude whether a gene has become more critical and its disruption results in the growth defective phenotype (poor representation) in the clinical isolates, or a critical/essential gene has become dispensable in these strains.

      Based on these arguments, I suggest that the authors modify the title of the result such as "Tn insertion reveals differential requirement of genes for in vitro growth of clinical MAC-PD strains" or "Identification of genes differentially required for in vitro growth of clinical MAC-PD strains" as this is precisely the information we gain from this section of the study. Also, it is suggested to re-draft the rationale of this section as only 4 genes associated with hypoxic pellicle formation, were found to exhibit reduced insertion frequencies in the clinical isolates out of total of 283 genes. Hypoxia-related genes can be highlighted in the next section (see below).

      Thank you for the suggestion to modify the section title and to re-draft the rationale of the section. Following the comment, we modified the section title as “Partial overlap of the genes showing increased genetic requirements in clinical MAC-PD strains with those required for hypoxic pellicle formation in ATCC13950 (page 9, lines 146-147)

      Following the suggestion, we have revised the rationale of this section as follows: “The sharing of strain-dependent and accessory essential or growth-defect-associated genes with genes required for hypoxic pellicle formation in ATCC13950 prompts us to consider that the profiles of gene essentiality in clinical MAC-PD strains may be associated with the genes required for hypoxic pellicle formation in ATCC13950.” (page 9, lines 151-155)

      The reviewer points out that only 4 genes associated with hypoxic pellicle formation were found to exhibit reduced insertion frequencies in the clinical isolates out of total of 283 genes. However, to discuss how much proportion of the genes were detected to be increasingly required in clinical MAC-PD strains compared to ATCC13950, we should focus on the 121 genes showing increased requirements in clinical MAC-PD strains compared to ATCC13950, excluding the 162 genes indispensable for clinical MAC-PD strains. Thus, we described that 4 genes associated with hypoxic pellicle formation, were found to exhibit reduced insertion frequencies in the clinical isolates out of the 121 genes having significantly fewer Tn insertions than ATCC13950 in the manuscript (Fig. 3).

      (3) Result 3 (Page 10-14): Requirement of genes with increased gene essentiality in the clinical MAC-PD strains for mouse lung infection.

      (3a) The title should be modified to "Identification of genes in the clinical MAC-PD strains required for mouse lung infection".

      Following the comment, we have modified the section title as "Identification of genes in the clinical MAC-PD strains required for mouse lung infection". (page 12, lines 201-202).

      (3b) Further, the rationale of this experiment needs to be modified. As mentioned above, up until now the impact of hypoxic pellicle formation genes in the growth of MAC-PD strains remains unconvincing. The rationale of mouse infection experiments could be straightforward- "to identify genes critical for animal infection of the clinical isolates".

      Thank you for the comment on the rationale of the in vivo TnSeq experiment. Following the comment, we have revised the rationale as “The impact of hypoxia on mycobacteria under various ecological circumstances implies that the genes required for pathogenesis of MAC-PD may be in some degrees, overlapped with the genes with increased requirements in the clinical MAC-PD strains compared to ATCC13950, and also with the genes required for hypoxic pellicle formation in ATCC13950. To identify genes required for in vivo infection of clinical MAC-PD strains,” in the revised manuscript (page 12, lines 204-210).

      (3c) The authors should avoid using the term "genes with increased essentiality" for the reasons explained above in point #2b.

      Following the comment, we have corrected the term as “genes with increased requirements” in the revised manuscript (page 12, line 207).

      (3d) From Tables S8 and S9, I can find 93 genes in Mi198Tn and 74 genes in Mi27Tn for which Tn insertion mutants are under-represented in TnSeq at all time points from Day 1 to Wk 16 in comparison to input. Importantly, excluding results from Day 1 when the infection has just settled, I find 172 and 121 genes in Mi198Tn and Mi27Tn, respectively, under-represented in lungs between Wk 4-16. My suggestion is that authors should focus more on such genes and identify the characteristics of these genes and what fraction belongs to those involved in hypoxic pellicle formation in the reference strain. I am perplexed why authors have categorically ignored other genes and only focused on a set of genes that correspond to ~10-12% of entire differentially abundant mutant pool.

      Thank you for the suggestion on the genes that Tn insertion mutants are under-represented in TnSeq from Weeks 4-16 in the infected mouse lungs be analyzed for overlapping the genes involved in hypoxic pellicle formation in the type strain ATCC13950. We found that at all timepoints from Day1 to Week 16, 74 genes and 99 genes were under-represented in lungs infected with M.i.27Tn and M.i.198Tn, respectively. Of them, 21 (28.3%) and 12 (12.1%) genes belonged to the genes involved in the genes required for hypoxic pellicle formation in the type strain. We found that at timepoints from Week 4 to Week 16, 121 genes and 172 genes were under-represented in lungs infected with M.i.27Tn and M.i.198Tn, respectively. Of them, 21 (23.1%) and 30 (18.0%) genes belonged to genes involved in hypoxic pellicle formation in the type strain. These hypoxic pellicle-associated genes detected both in M.i.27 and M.i.198 encoded methionine synthesis, acyl-CoA dehydrogenase, isocitrate lyase, MMPL family transporter at all time points (from Day1 to Week 16). And additionally, multifunctional oxoglutarate decarboxylase/dehydrogenase, proteasome subunits, ABC transporter ATP-binding protein/permease, lipase chaperone at all time points (from Week 4 to Week 16). We have described these results in the Result section (page 14 lines 236-248) and new Supplementary Tables 12 and 13.

      As for M. intracellulare, conditionally essential genes have not been revealed except for those required for hypoxic pellicle formation in ATCC13950 revealed by us (Tateishi Y. Sci Rep. 2020; new Ref#10). This study is the first to focus on the relationship between the difference of genetic requirements among strains and hypoxic adaptation. We found a certain proportion of overlapped genes required for mouse lung infection and ATCC13950’s hypoxic pellicle formation. We consider it reasonable to focus on the category of genes required for hypoxic pellicle formation to analyze the datasets of TnSeq in mice.

      [Reference]

      Tateishi, Y. et al. Genome-wide identification of essential genes in Mycobacterium intracellulare by transposon sequencing - Implication for metabolic remodeling. Sci Rep 10, 5449 (2020).

      (3e) Page 13, lines 224-227: "Despite the differences in the profiles of the genes required for in vivo infection between strains, these data suggest that increased gene essentiality for hypoxic growth confers advantages for pathogenesis in vivo."

      For the reason described above, I find it a misleading hypothesis that hypoxic growth confers advantages for pathogenesis in vivo. How come only 10-12% of the entire gene sets which include genes of varying functions, can be the sole contributors to bacterial survival in host organelles during infection?

      More importantly, the mouse is not considered a good model for hypoxia as mouse infection does not lead to the formation of solid granuloma with a hypoxic core Though I am not convinced with the authors' bias toward hypoxia-related genes, however, if at all they aim to investigate the role of such genes by an unbiased enrichment of TnSeq mutant, they should have used C3HeJ mice which are known to form granulomas (Boute et al., 2017 (doi: 10.1186/s13567-017-0477-7)).

      Thank you for the comments on the issue of the contribution of genes required for hypoxic growth and on the difference of hypoxic levels between mouse lineages. We did not intend to mention that a set of genes required for hypoxic growth is the sole contributor to bacterial survival in host organs during infection. As we discussed in the Discussion section, we acknowledge that the adaptation to the difference of carbon source between in vitr_o and _in vivo infection (i.e. preferential usage of lipid carbon source in vivo) is involved in the pathogenesis of mycobacterial diseases (Yang. Front Microbiol 2018; new Ref#33, Gouzy. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 2021; new Ref#29, Quinonez. mBio 2022; new Ref#40, Pandey. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 2008; new Ref#41). We consider that not only the genes required for hypoxic pellicle formation but also strain-dependent/accessory genes conferring kinds of metabolism other than hypoxic pellicle formation can be estimated to be involved in the in vivo mouse lung infection.

      We have modified the sentence to clearly express our intention as follows: “These in vivo TnSeq data suggest that, despite the differences in the profiles of the genes required for in vivo infection between strains, increase of genetic requirements for hypoxic growth in part contribute to the pathogenesis in vivo.” (pages 15-16, lines 269-271)

      It seems to be an interesting idea to perform TnSeq by using C3HeJ mice. The granuloma formed in C3HeJ mice becomes extremely hypoxic (less than 1%, corresponding the level of “pathological” hypoxia) which is as severe as the detection range by pimonidazole. In our model, the effect of such pathological levels of hypoxia on granuloma formation might not be detected. However, the lesion formed in C57BL/6 mice becomes a “physiological” level of hypoxia (5% O2) (McKeown SR. Br Br J Radiol. 2014) which is the same O2 level for M. intracellulare to form pellicles. In principle, oxygen levels inside human bodies are physiologically hypoxic, and many biological events are experimentally investigated in this condition. Thus, we consider that we were able to observe the effect of physiological hypoxia on M. intracellulre growth both in vitro (hypoxic pellicles) and in vivo (infected C57BL/6 mice).

      [Reference]

      Yang, T. et al. Pan-genomic study of Mycobacterium tuberculosis reflecting the primary/secondary genes, generality/individuality, and the interconversion through copy number variations. Front Microbiol 9, 1886 (2018).

      Gouzy, A., Healy, C., Black, K.A., Rhee, K.Y. & Ehrt, S. Growth of Mycobacterium tuberculosis at acidic pH depends on lipid assimilation and is accompanied by reduced GAPDH activity. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 118, e2024571118 (2021).

      Quinonez, C.G. et al. The role of fatty acid metabolism in drug tolerance of Mycobacterium tuberculosis. mBio 13, e0355921 (2022).

      Pandey, A.K. & Sassetti, C.M. Mycobacterial persistence requires the utilization of host cholesterol. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 105, 4376-4380 (2008).

      McKeown., S.R. et al. Defining normoxia, physoxia and hypoxia in tumours-implications for treatment response. Br Br J Radiol 87, 20130676 (2014).

      (3f) An important set of data with the ATCC13950 reference strain is missing here. It is suggested that authors perform this study with the reference strain to identify whether the enrichment of genes is similar across all strains or is specific to the clinical isolates.

      Thank you for the comment on the setting of ATCC13950 as a control strain in the mouse infection experiment. However, we proved that bacterial burden of ATCC13950 is reduced continuously from 4 weeks of infection, and that ATCC13950 is almost completely eliminated from 8 to 16 weeks of infection (BMC Microiol 2023; new Ref#22). Therefore, it is impossible to perform TnSeq to detect the genes required for persistent infection in mice infected with ATCC13950.

      [Reference]

      Tateishi, Y. et al. Virulence of Mycobacterium intracellulare clinical strains in a mouse model of lung infection - role of neutrophilic inflammation in disease severity. BMC Microbiol 23, 94 (2023).

      (3g) Pages 13-14, lines 228-245: "We have performed a statistical enrichment analysis of gene sets by GSEA...".

      The comparison made here is not clear to me. It seems the authors do compare genes required for the growth of M.i.27 and M.i.198 in mouse lungs with the gene sets required for hypoxic pellicle formation in ATCC13950 together with the gene sets showing increased gene essentiality observed in the clinical MAC-PD strains, and claim that a significant % of genes belong to hypoxia-adaptation pathways. It is factually incorrect because a majority of these might overlap with those found critical for the in vitro survival of MAC-PD strains. It is suggested that authors re-analyze their data by comparing genes required for the growth of M.i.27 and M.i.198 in mouse lungs individually with those involved in hypoxic pellicle formation in ATCC13950, and with the gene sets found critical for in vitro growth, and present accordingly.

      Thank you for the suggestion on the re-analysis of gene enrichment analysis of genes required for M.i.27 and M.i.198 in vivo infection, individually with genes involved in hypoxic pellicle formation in ATCC13950 and with those showing genetic requirements in clinical MAC-PD strains compared to ATCC13950.

      About 50% (92 and 94 out of 181 genes through Day 1 to Week 16 and through Week4 to Week16 of infection) and 40% (70 and 79 out of 179 genes through Day 1 to Week 16 and through Week 4 to Week 16 of infection) of genes required for hypoxic pellicle formation in ATCC13950 were listed as enriched in genes required for mouse lung infection in M.i.27 and M.i.198, respectively. In addition, about 42% (54 and 56 out of 128 genes through Day 1 to Week 16 and through Week 4 to Week 16 of infection) and 40% (79 and 68 out of 179 genes through Day 1 to Week 16 and through Week 4 to Week 16 of infection) of genes showing increased requirements in clinical MAC-PD strains compared to ATCC13950 were listed as enriched in genes required for mouse lung infection in M.i.27 and M.i.198, respectively.

      The tables and graphs of GSEA results are shown in Supplementary Figs. 5, 6.

      These data indicate that 40-50% of the genes required for in vitro hypoxic pellicle formation and the strain-dependent/accessory essential genes are significantly enriched individually with in vivo bacterial growth. We have added the result of reanalyzed data of GSEA in the Result (pages 16-17, lines 287-290). We have shown the detail of reanalyzed data of GSEA in Supplementary Figs. 5, 6 and Supplementary Tables 15, 16.

      (3h) Since authors have used Tnseq of pooled mutants, which often yields misleading information, it is important to validate some of their findings upon mouse infection with individual mutants that yield prominent as well as baseline reduction at different time points. In the absence of validation, it remains a mere speculation of the role of these genes in the infection of these strains to animals.

      Thank you for the suggestion on the validation of the TnSeq hit genes on the in vivo survival. We acknowledge the importance of validating the TnSeq-hit genes by constructing knockout mutants. We have recently succeeded in constructing the vectors for making knockout strains of M. intracellulare (Tateishi Y. Microbiol Immunol. 2024). We will proceed to the infection experiment of knockout mutants by using our system for constructing them.

      [Reference]

      Tateishi Y. et al. Construction of knockout mutants in Mycobacterium intracellulare ATCC13950 strain using a thermosensitive plasmid containing negative selection marker rpsL+. Microbiol Immunol 68, 339-347 (2024).

      (4) Result 4 (Page 14-15): Preferential hypoxic adaptation of clinical MAC-PD strains evaluated with bacterial growth kinetics.

      (4a) "The metabolic remodeling, such as the increased gene essentiality of gluconeogenesis and the type VII secretion system..". As stated above, the essentiality of a gene, being a qualitative trait, should not be presented in quantitative terms. The authors should re-phrase this statement.

      Following the comment, we have corrected the term as “The metabolic remodeling, such as the increased genetic requirements of gluconeogenesis and the type VII secretion system.” (page 17, lines 296-297)

      (4b) "overlap of the genes required for mouse lung infection and those required for hypoxic pellicle formation involved by conferring these metabolic pathways..". There is a syntax error in this statement and needs revision.

      Following the comment, we have corrected the phrase as “overlap of the genes required for mouse lung infection and those required for hypoxic pellicle formation involved by these metabolic pathways”. (page 17, lines 297-299)

      (4c) The altered requirement of genes in different clinical strains for survival provides only circumstantial evidence of metabolic remodeling. Authors are suggested to perform metabolic profiling of representative clinical and reference strains, as it is important to examine whether these bacteria indeed undergo metabolic shift.

      Thank you for the comment on the metabolic profiling of the representative clinical and reference strains. We previously published the TnSeq result of ATCC13950 and we produced the current data by organizing with our previous findings (Fig. 4 in Tateishi Y. Sci Rep 2020; new Ref#10). The priority of the current study was to elucidate the difference and diversity of genetic requirements between clinical MAC-PD strains and ATCC13950. We consider that it is of some value to show the even circumstantial evidence of metabolic remodeling by TnSeq, because it provides a strong rationale for proceeding to the next study including metabolomic analysis.

      [Reference]

      Tateishi, Y. et al. Genome-wide identification of essential genes in Mycobacterium intracellulare by transposon sequencing - Implication for metabolic remodeling. Sci Rep 10, 5449 (2020).

      (5) Result 5 (Page 16-18): Effects of knockdown of universal and accessory/strain-dependent essential or growth-defect-associate genes in clinical MAC-PD strains.

      (5a) Lines 273-277: The rationale of using CRISPRi should be correctly presented to evaluate the effect of individual genes' suppression on the downstream phenotype and not to establish the CRISPRi silencing tool in MAC.

      Thank you for the comment on the rationale of the section of the CRISPR-i experiment. Following the comment, we have modified the sentence as follows: “With an intention to evaluate the effect of suppressing TnSeq-hit genes on bacterial growth.” (page 19, lines 333-334 in the revised manuscript).

      (5b) Line 278: pRH2052/pRH2521 are the plasmids and not the CRISPRi system.

      Following the comment, we have corrected the phrase as “pRH2052/pRH2521 clustered regularly interspaced short palindromic repeats interference (CRISPR-i) plasmids.” (page 19, lines 334-335 in the revised manuscript).

      (5c) Line 280: Other pioneering studies on the use of CRISPRi for gene silencing in mycobacteria (Chaudhary et al., Nat Comm, Rock et al., Nat Microbio) should also be cited.

      Thank you for the comment on adding the reference papers on CRISPR-i in mycobacteria. We have added the two suggested papers in the revised manuscript as new Ref #30 and #31. (page 19, line 336).

      (5d) Lines 282-283: It is not clear why M001 and MOTT64 could not be transformed. Did the authors use any control plasmid to evaluate the transformation efficiency of these strains?

      Thank you for the comment on the failure of transformation in M001 and MOTT64.

      Following the comment, we have performed the experiment for evaluating the efficiency of transformation in the 9 M. intracellulare strains we used in this study. We have used an E. coli-mycobacteria shuttle vector pSO246KM-Prhsp65-luc that expresses firefly luciferase as a control plasmid (Aoki K. J Biol Chem 2004). For obtaining transformed colonies, we used 7H10/OADC agar plates containing the same concentration of kanamycin that we used for preparing Tn mutant libraries and for obtaining CRSISPR-i knockdown strains.

      We have observed no colonies grown on agar plates in MOTT64 after electroporation of the pSO246KM-Prhsp65-luc plasmid. In most of the remaining strains, the transformed colonies have emerged fully on day 10 of culture after electroporation of the plasmid. However, we have observed that M001 needs twice as long as a period for the emergence of transformed colonies. On day 21, the number of colonies in M 001 have finally become comparable to that of the other strains. We have checked the luciferase activity of 6-12 colonies in each strain except for MOTT64, and we have confirmed the transformation of the plasmid by the data of higher luciferase activity in the colonies undergoing electroporation of the plasmid than in those not undergoing electroporation.

      The possible reason for the incapability of obtaining transformants of CRISPR-i vectors in MOTT64 may be due to the extremely low efficiency of acquiring foreign DNA. And the possible reason for the incapability of obtaining transformants of CRISPR-i vectors in M001 may be intolerable to the stress caused by transformation of plasmids compared to other M. intracellulare strains. For M001, pSO246KM-Prhsp65-luc plasmid may cause tolerable stress for transformation, resulting in the delayed emergence of transformed colonies. By contrast, the CRIPSR-i plasmids may cause greater stress for M001 than pSO246KM-Prhsp65-luc plasmid, resulting in being intolerable for transformation.

      Author response table 1.

      Author response image 3.

      Result of luciferase activities before and after transformation of pS0246KM-Prhsp65-luc plasmid. Fifty microliter of cultures were mixed with 50 u L of assay reagents (Luciferase assay system E1500, Promega) and luciferase activity was measured by the luminometer (FilterMax F5, Molecular Devices). Data are shown as mean ± SD of 6-12 colonies

      [Reference]

      Aoki K. Extracellular mycobacterial DNA-binding protein 1 participates in Mycobacterium-lung epithelial cell interaction through hyaluronic acid. J Biol Chem 279, 39798–39806 (2004).

      (5e) Lines 283-186: "To confirm the gene essentiality detected with the HMM analysis, we evaluated the consequent growth inhibition in the knockdown strains of representative universal essential or growth-defect-associated genes, including glcB, inhA, gyrB, and embB.." It is not clear what was the level of suppression of these genes in the respective KD strains. Authors should include the level of suppression of these genes also by qRT-PCR.

      Thank you for the comment on the suppression levels of gene expression in knockdown strains of universal essential genes. Following the comment, we have evaluated them by qRT-PCR and we observed comparable levels of knockdown efficiency in the knockdown strains between universally essential genes and strain-specific/accessory essential genes (new Supplementary Fig. 9). Overall, the gene expression was suppressed to 20 - 70% in the knockdown strains compared to the vector control strains that do not express sgRNA.

      We have added the data of qRT-PCR of knockdown strains of universal essential genes such as glcB, inhA, gyrB, and embB (new Supplementary Fig. 9). We have revised the Result and Discussion in the manuscript (page 21, lines 367-376; page28, lines 490-497).

      (5f) Lines 293-: I am unable to establish any correlation between the growth of the knockdown with Tn insertion reads in the respective genes. For instance, pckA exhibits reduced Tn insertion reads in almost all the strains except in M.i.27, but the effect of its KD on growth is seen only in M.i.198 and M003; glpX exhibits reduced Tn insertion reads in M003, M019, M021 but the effect of its KD on growth is seen only in M003; csd exhibits reduced Tn insertion reads in M.i.198, M003, M019 but the effect of its KD on growth is seen only in M.i.198 and M003. The authors argue that these contradictory phenotypes are due to difficulties in the effective operation of genetically modified systems using foreign genes from different bacterial species in MAC-PD strains (Lines 310-312) or the desired effect on growth could not be observed due to the inability of CRISPRi to yield >99% suppression (Line 314) are not the valid justifications. Indeed, a close look at the RT-PCR data (Figure S5) reveals that pckA levels are ~0.22, 0.5, 0.2, 0.22, 0.2, 0.5, and 0.3 fold relative to sigA in M.i.198, M.i.27, ATCC13950, M018, M019, M003 and M021, respectively, but the effect of its suppression on growth by CRISPRi is seen only in M.i.198 and M003. Secondly, >99% suppression is not a universal prerequisite for all the genes to show growth defect (as might be the case with glcB, inhA, gyrB, and embB genes in this study). Hence, it remains unclear why contrasting results are obtained for most of the genes by TnSeq and CRISPRi.

      Thank you for the comments on the issue of inconsistent results between TnSeq and CRISPR-i based knockdown. We acknowledge that some inconsistencies were observed, particularly among strain-dependent/accessory essential or growth-defect associated genes. By contrast, we found consistent data between TnSeq and CRISPR-i based knockdown results of universal essential genes. By obtaining the data of suppression levels of gene expression in the knockdown strains of universal essential genes, we have acknowledged that the low efficiency of knockdown does not explain the reason of the discrepancy between TnSeq and CRISPR-i results because the levels of knockdown efficiency were comparable between strain-dependent/accessory essential genes and universally essential genes.  

      Although the mechanism has not been fully proven yet only from the current study, we consider that such inconsistent phenotypes with TnSeq and CRISPR-i based knockdown may be related to the recently revealed the bypass mechanism of gene essentiality which is characteristically observed in strain-dependent/accessory essential or growth-defect-associated genes. According to the publication by Rosconi (Nat Microbiol. 2022: new Ref#14) reporting the ‘forced-evolution experiments’ of 36 clinical Streptococcus pneumoniae strains, gene essentiality can be bypassed by several mechanisms including the composition of the accessory genome and pathway rewiring. They recovered successfully knockout mutants from transformation experiments in strain-specific/accessory essential genes such as cytidine monophosphate kinase, a folate pathway enzyme formate tetrahydrofolate ligase and an undecaprenyl phosphate-biosynthesis pathway enzyme farnesyl-diphosphate synthase. The bypassing of gene essentiality could be suggested by observing suppressor mutations and synthetic lethality in knockout strains. By contrast, universal essential genes were reported to fulfill the three categories including high levels of conservation within and often across species, limited genetic diversity, and high and stable expression levels. Consequently, universal essential genes are estimated to be rigid, largely immutable key components to an organism’s survival.

      We consider that this is the case with our study on NTM because NTM is pangenomic. The knockdown of universal essential genes resulted in the clear growth suppression; however, the knockdown of strain-dependent/accessory essential genes did not show the consistent growth suppression. We consider that the bypass mechanism of gene essentiality can explain the inconsistent effect of gene silencing of strain-dependent/accessory genes on bacterial growth suppression.

      We have added the above-mentioned description in the Discussion (pages 28-29, lines 497-519).

      [Reference]

      Rosconi, F. et al. A bacterial pan-genome makes gene essentiality strain-dependent and evolvable. Nat Microbiol 7, 1580–1592 (2022).

      Minor Comments:

      (1) The authors should mention the cut-off of fold-change for all the experiments in the methods section.

      Thank you for the comment on the cut-off of fold-change. We set the cut-off of fold-change as adjusted P-value < 0.05. We added the description in the Methods section. (page 41, lines 724-725)

      (2) Figure 7 legend (Lines 888-889): "Data are shown as the means {plus minus} SD of triplicate experiments. Data from one experiment representative of three independent experiments (N = 3) are shown."

      Figure S3 legend: Data on the growth curves are the means of triplicate experiments. Data from one experiment representative of three independent experiments (N = 3) are shown.

      Figure S4 legend: Data are shown as the means {plus minus} SD of triplicate experiments. Data from one experiment representative of two independent experiments (N = 2) are shown.

      Figure S5 legend: Gene expression data are the means {plus minus} SD of triplicate experiments. Data from one experiment representative of two independent experiments (N = 2) are shown.

      These statements need clarification. Whether multiple independent experiments (biological repeats), each with 2-3 technical replicates performed and the data shown represent one of the multiple biological repeats?

      Thank you for the comments on the number of experiments performed and the number of replicates. We have performed two or three independent experiments with 2-3 technical replicates. The data shown represent one of the independent experiments.

      (3) Figure 7b: Statistics are missing in the bar graph for growth rate under aerobic conditions.

      Thank you for the comment on the statistics of the data regarding growth rate under aerobic conditions. We have added the statistics in the new Fig. 7c.

      (4) The authors should check the y-axis in Figure 7b, as it is not clear whether bacteria indeed show a growth rate of 1-3 CFUs/day.

      Thank you for the comment on the y-axis in Figure 7b. We have corrected the label of y-axis as “log10[CFUs]/day” in the new Fig. 7c. Additionally, we have corrected the label of y-axis in new Fig. 7a and added the description as “Data are represented as CFUs in 4 μl sample at each timepoint.” in the Fig. 7a legend.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) It's notable that strains M001 and MOTT64 failed to undergo a transformation, while seven other strains did. Given that M001, MOTT64, and M019 belong to the same phylogenetic clade, it raises questions about why particular strains within this clade showed different transformation outcomes. It might be valuable for them to discuss this discrepancy in their study.

      Thank you for the comment on the difference in capacity of transformation between strains belonging to the same genomic subgroup. Although the direct mechanism determining the competency for foreign DNA has not been elucidated in M. intracellulare and other pathogenic NTM species, several studies on general bacteria suggest the difficulties of introducing foreign DNA into clinical strains compared to the laboratory strains. As suggested in Staphylococcus aureus (Covaglia AR. PNAS. 2010; new ref#55), some clinical strains develop elimination system of foreign nucleic acids such as a type III-like restriction restriction endonuclease. As suggested in gran-negative bacteria (Qin J. Sci Rep. 2022; new Ref#56), there may be some difference in cell surface structures between strains, resulting in the necessity of polymyxin B nonapeptide targeting cell membrane for transforming clinical strains. The efficiency of eliminating foreign DNA may be attributed to various kinds of strain-specific factors including restriction endonuclease, natural CRISPR-interference system and cell wall structures rather than a simple genotypic factor.

      We have added the description on the difference of capability in transformation in the Discussion. (page 31, lines 546-558)

      [References]

      Corvaglia, A.R., François, P., Hernandez, D., Perron, K., Linder, P. & Schrenzel, J. A type III-like restriction endonuclease functions as a major barrier to horizontal gene transfer in clinical Staphylococcus aureus strains. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 107, 11954-11958 (2010).

      Qin, J., Hong, Y., Pullela, K., Morona, R., Henderson, I.R. & Totsika, M. A method for increasing electroporation competence of Gram-negative clinical isolates by polymyxin B nonapeptide. Sci Rep 12,:11629 (2022).

      (2) The authors should consider specifying M. intracellulare in their title.

      Thank you for the comment on the manuscript title. Following the comments from all Reviewers, we have modified the title as “Functional genomics reveals strain-specific genetic requirements conferring hypoxic growth in Mycobacterium intracellulare”.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This study presents a valuable finding on the immunophenotypes of cancer treatment-related pneumonitis. The evidence supporting the claims of the authors is solid, although the inclusion of controls, as suggested by one of the reviewers, strengthened the study. The work will be of interest to cancer immunologists.

      Response: We are thankful for the editor's recognition of the contribution our study makes to understanding the immunophenotypes associated with cancer treatment-related pneumonitis. We agree that the inclusion of control data is pivotal for benchmarking biomarkers. While our initial study design was constrained by the availability of BALF from healthy individuals within clinical settings, we addressed this limitation by incorporating scRNA-seq data from healthy control and COVID-19 BALF cells sourced from the GSE145926 dataset. This additional analysis has provided a baseline for comparison, revealing that CD16 is expressed in a minority of T cells in healthy BALF, specifically 1.0% of CD4+ T cells and 1.6% of CD8+ T cells. The inclusion of this data as Figures 6H and 6I in our manuscript offers a robust context for the significant increase in CD16-expressing T cells observed in patients with PCP, thus enhancing the robustness of our study's conclusions.

      Author response image 1.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Many thanks for giving me the opportunity to review your paper. I really enjoyed the way you carried out this work - for example, your use of a wide panel of markers and the use of two analytical methods - you have clearly given great thought to bias avoidance. I also greatly appreciated your paragraph on the limitations, as there are several, but you do not 'over-sell' your conclusions so there is no issue here for me.

      To improve the piece, there are a few typos (eg 318 - specific to alpha-myosin) and I was briefly confused about the highlighted clusters in Figure 4. Perhaps mention why they are highlighted when they first appear in 4D instead of E?

      Response: We have corrected the typos, and we have rearranged the sequence of Figures 3E and 3F, as well as 4D and 4E, to ensure a logical flow. Citrus-generated violin plots are now presented prior to the heatmap of the clusters, which better illustrates the progression of our analysis and the derivation of the clusters.

      In terms of improvements to the data, obviously it would have been ideal if you had had some sort of healthy control as a point of reference for all cohorts, but working in the field I understand the difficulties in getting healthy BAL. It would be worth your while however trying to find more supportive data in the literature in general. There are studies which assess various immune markers in healthy BAL eg https://journal-inflammation.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1476-9255-11-9. and so I think it is worth looking wrt the main findings. For example, are CD16+ T cells seen in healthy BAL or any other conditions (at present the COVID study is being over-relied on)? Could these cells be gamma deltas? (gamma deltas frequently express CD8 and CD16, and can switch to APC like phenotypes).

      Response: We are grateful for the reviewer's consideration of the practical challenges associated with collecting BALF from healthy individuals. Alternatively, we have supplemented our analysis with single-cell RNA sequencing data from BALF cells of healthy controls, as found in existing literature (Nature Medicine 2020; 26: 842-844). We have accessed to GSE145926 and downloaded data of BALF cells from healthy control (n=3) and severe COVID19 (n=6). The filtered gene-barcode matrix was first normalized using ‘NormalizeData’ methods in Seurat v.4 with default parameters. The top 2,000 variable genes were then identified using the ‘vst’ method in Seurat FindVariableFeatures function. Then PCA and UMAP was performed. T cells were identified as CD2 >1 and CD3E >1, and FCGR3A expression was explored using an expression threshold of 0.5. Violin plots and bar plots were generated by ggplot function.

      Regarding the pivotal finding of increased CD16-expressing T cells in patients with PCP, the scRNA-seq data mining indicates that CD16 is expressed by a minority of T cells in healthy BALF—1.0% of CD4+ T cells and 1.6% of CD8+ T cells. These figures, now incorporated into our revised manuscript as Figures 6H and 6I, substantiate our findings. These cells could be gamma delta T cells, but we could not confirm it with the limited data. We will investigate in the future study. The main text has been updated to reflect these findings.

      Author response image 2.

      I would agree with your approach of not going down the transcript route, so just focus on protein expression.

      I think you need to mention more about the impact of ICI on PD1 expression - in the methods you lose one approach owing to low T cell expression (132) but in the discussion you mention ICI induced high expression (311) as previously reported. This apparent contradiction needs an explanation.

      Response: We acknowledge the need for clarification regarding the impact of ICIs on PD-1 expression. In the methods section, the low detection of PD-1 expression on T cells in patients treated with nivolumab was indeed noted; this was due to the competitive nature of the PD-1 detection antibody EH12.2 with nivolumab. As reported by Suzuki et al. (International Immunology 2020; 32: 547-557), T cells from patients with ICI-induced ILD, including those treated with nivolumab, exhibit upregulated PD-1 expression, where the PD-1 detection antibody (clone: MIH4). Conversely, as outlined by Yanagihara et al. (BBRC 2020; 527: 213-217), the PD-1 detection antibody clone EH12.2 conjugated with 155Gd (#3155009B) used in our study is unable to detect PD-1 when patients are under nivolumab treatment due to competitive inhibition. The absence of a metal-conjugated PD-1 antibody with the MIH4 clone presented a limitation in our study. Ideally, we would have conjugated the MIH4 antibody with 155Gd for our analysis, which is a refinement we aim to incorporate in future research. We have now included this discussion in our manuscript to clarify the contradiction between the methodological limitations and the high PD-1 expression induced by ICIs, as reported in the literature. This addition will guide readers through the nuances of antibody selection and its implications for detecting PD-1 expression in the context of ICI treatment.

      Finally, since you have the severity data, it would be good to assess all the significantly different clusters against this metric, as you have done for CD16+ T cells. Not only may this reveal more wrt the impact of other immune populations, but it'll also give a point of reference for the CD16+ T cell data.

      Response: Thank you for the suggestion to assess all significantly different clusters against the disease severity metric. We have expanded our analysis to include a thorough correlation study between the disease severity and intensity of various T-cell markers. Notably, we observed that intensity of CCR7 expression correlates with the disease severity. Although the precise biological significance of this correlation remains to be elucidated, it may suggest a role for CCR7+ T cells in the pathogenesis or progression of the disease. We have considered the potential implications of this finding and included it as Supplementary Figure 5. We have also discussed this observation in the discussion section.

      Author response image 3.

      Overall though I think this is a really nice study, with a potentially very significant finding in linking CD16+ T cells with severity. Congratulations.

      Response: We would like to thank the reviewer’s heartful comments on our manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      General:

      1) The fact that this is a retrospective study should be indicated earlier in the paper.

      Response: Now we have mentioned the retrospective nature of the study in the method section as follows: In this retrospective study, patients who were newly diagnosed with PCP, DI-ILD, and ICI-ILD and had undergone BALF collection at Kyushu University Hospital from January 2017 to April 2022 were included. The retrospective study was approved by the Ethics Committee of Kyushu University Hospital (reference number 22117-00).

      2) tSNE and UMAP are dimensionality reduction techniques that don't cluster the cells, the authors should specify what clustering algorithm was used subsequently (e.g FlowSOM)

      Response: The cluster was determined manually by their expression pattern.

      3) With regards to the role of CD16 in a potential exacerbated cytotoxicity in the fatal PCP case, the authors could measure the levels of C3a related proteins in patient serum to link to a common immunopathogenic pathway with COVID.

      Response: We did not collect serum from the patients in this study as our research protocol was approved by the Ethics committee for the use of BALF only. However, we agree with your assessment that the measurement of serum C3a levels would be informative. In future studies, we will incorporate the measurement of serum C3a levels to provide more comprehensive insights into the impact of C3a on immune function. Thank you for your valuable feedback and for helping us to improve the quality of our research.

      Line-specific:

      101 The authors should provide some information on how the cryopreservation of the BALF was carried out.

      Response: Upon collection, BALF samples were immediately centrifuged at 300 g for 5 minutes to pellet the cells. The resultant cell pellets were then resuspended in Cellbanker 1 cryopreservation solution (Takara, catalog #210409). This suspension was aliquoted into cryovials and gradually frozen to –80ºC using a controlled rate freezing method to ensure cell viability. The samples were stored at –80ºC until required for experimental analysis. We have added the information in the method section.

      Fig 3B: It would be very helpful if the authors could add a supplementary figure with marker expression on the UMAP projection.

      Response: We have added Supplementary Figure 4 with marker expression on the UMAP projection in Figure 3B.

      Fig 4A: Same as Fig 3B

      Response: We have added Supplementary Figure 5 with marker expression on the UMAP projection in Figure 4A.

      Fig 5B: Same as Fig 3B

      Response: We have added Supplementary Figure 6 with marker expression on the tSNE projection in Figure 5B.

      266 Authors should state if the data is not shown with regards to differences in myeloid cell fractions

      430 Marker intensity is not shown in panel D

      Re: Corrected as follows: “Citrus network tree visualizing the hierarchical relationship of each marker between identified T cell ~”

      446 The legend says patients have IPF, CTD-ILD, sarcoidosis but the figure shows PCP, DI-ILD, ICI-ILD.

      Re: Corrected.

      451 What do the authors mean in "Graphical plots represent individual samples"? Panel B is a dot plot of all samples.

      Response: Corrected as “Dot plots represent ~”.

      472 What do the authors mean in "Graphical plots represent individual samples"? Panel C is a dot plot of all samples.

      Response: Corrected as “Dot plots represent ~”.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      An important thing is to add comparisons against healthy donors, at least. A common baseline is needed to firmly establish any biomarkers.

      Response: We acknowledge the reviewer's concern regarding the comparison with healthy donors. Although our study did not initially include BALF collection from healthy controls due to the constraints of clinical practice, we recognize the importance of a control baseline to validate biomarkers. To address this, we have integrated scRNA-seq data from healthy control BALF cells available in public datasets (Nature Medicine 2020; 26: 842-844), accessed from GSE145926. This dataset includes BALF cells from healthy controls (n=3) alongside severe COVID-19 patients (n=6). Data mining confirmed that CD16 expression is in a minority of T cells in healthy BALF—1.0% of CD4+ T cells and 1.6% of CD8+ T cells. We have included this comparative data in our manuscript as Figures 6H and 6I to provide context for the observed increase in CD16-expressing T cells in PCP patients, which substantiates our findings.

      Author response image 4.

      Data analysis needs to go deeper. There are several other tools on Cytobank alone that would allow a more quantitative analysis of the data. Fold changes in marker expressions would be very important as measurements of phenotypic changes.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for their constructive feedback on the depth of our data analysis. We acknowledge the value of a more quantitative approach, including the use of fold change measurements to assess phenotypic alterations, and recognize the potential insights such tools on Cytobank could provide. Due to the scope and limited space of the current study, we have focused our analysis on the most pertinent findings relevant to our research questions. We believe the present analysis serves the immediate objectives of this study. However, we agree that further quantitative analysis would enhance the understanding of the data. We have expanded our analysis to include a thorough correlation study between the disease severity of PCP and intensity of various T-cell markers. Notably, we observed that intensity of CCR7 expression correlates with the disease severity of PCP. Although the precise biological significance of this correlation remains to be elucidated, it may suggest a role for CCR7+ T cells in the pathogenesis or progression of the disease. We have considered the potential implications of this finding and included it as Supplementary Figure 5. We have also discussed this observation in the discussion section. We aim to consider these approaches in future work to build upon the foundation laid by this study. Your suggestions are invaluable and will be kept at the forefront as we plan subsequent research phases.

      Author response image 5.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Cytotoxic agents and immune checkpoint inhibitors are the most commonly used and efficacious treatments for lung cancers. However their use brings two significant pulmonary side-effects; namely Pneumocystis jirovecii infection and resultant pneumonia (PCP), and interstitial lung disease (ILD). To observe the potential immunological drivers of these adverse events, Yanagihara et al. analysed and compared cells present in the bronchoalveolar lavage of three patient groups (PCP, cytotoxic drug-induced ILD [DI-ILD], and ICI-associated ILD [ICI-ILD]) using mass cytometry (64 markers). In PCP, they observed an expansion of the CD16+ T cell population, with the highest CD16+ T proportion (97.5%) in a fatal case, whilst in ICI-ILD, they found an increase in CD57+ CD8+ T cells expressing immune checkpoints (TIGIT+ LAG3+ TIM-3+ PD-1+), FCRL5+ B cells, and CCR2+ CCR5+ CD14+ monocytes. Given the fatal case, the authors also assessed for, and found, a correlation between CD16+ T cells and disease severity in PCP, postulating that this may be owing to endothelial destruction. Although n numbers are relatively small (n=7-9 in each cohort; common numbers for CyTOF papers), the authors use a wide panel (n=65) and two clustering methodologies giving greater strength to the conclusions. The differential populations discovered using one or two of the analytical methods are robust: whole population shifts with clear and significant clustering. These data are an excellent resource for clinical disease specialists and pan-disease immunologists, with a broad and engaging contextual discussion about what they could mean.

      Strengths:

      • The differences in immune cells in BAL in these specific patient subgroups is relatively unexplored.

      • This is an observational study, with no starting hypothesis being tested.

      • Two analytical methods are used to cluster the data.

      • A relatively wide panel was used (64 markers), with particular strength in the alpha beta T cells and B cells.

      • Relevant biomarkers, beta-D-glucan and KL-6 were also analysed

      • Appropriate statistics were used throughout.

      • Numbers are low (7 cases of PCP, 9 of DI-ILD, and 9 of ICI-ILD) but these are difficult samples to collect and so in relative terms, and considering the use of CyTOF, these are good numbers.

      • Beta-D-glucan shows potential as a biomarker for PCP (as previously reported) whilst KL-6 shows potential as a biomarker for ICI-ILD (not reported before). Interestingly, KL-6 was not seen to be increased in DI-ILD patients.

      • Despite the relatively low n numbers and lack of matching there are some clear differentials. The CD4/CD8+CD16+HLA-DR+CXCR3+CD14- T cell result is striking - up in PCP (with EM CD4s significantly down) - whilst the CD8 EMRA population is clear in ICI-ILD and 'non-exhausted' CD4s, with lower numbers of EMRA CD8s in DI-ILD.

      • The authors identify 17/31 significantly differentiated clusters of myeloid cells, eg CD11bhi CD11chi CD64+ CD206+ alveolar macrophages with HLA-DRhi in PCP.

      • With respect to B cells, the authors found that FCRL5+ B cells were more abundant in patients with ICI-ILD compared to those with PCP and DI-ILD, suggesting these FCRL5+ B cells may have a role in irAE.

      • One patient's extreme CD16+ T cell (97.5% positive) and death, led the authors to consider CD16+ T cells as an indicator of disease severity in PCP. This was then tested and found to be correct.

      • Authors discuss results in context of literature leading them to suggest that CD16+ T cells may target endothelial cells and wonder if anti-complement therapy may be efficacious in PCP.

      • Great discussion on auto-reactive T cell clones where the authors suggest that in ICI-ILD CD8s may react against healthy lung, driving ILD.

      • An observation of CXCR3 in different CD8 populations in ICI-ILD and PCP lead the authors to hypothesise on the chemoattractants in the microenvironment.

      • Excellent point suggesting CD57 may not always be a marker of senescence on T cells - reflective of growing change within the community.

      • Well considered suggestion that FCRL5+ B cells may be involved in ICI-ILD driven autoimmunity.

      • The authors discuss the main weaknesses in the discussion and stress that the findings detailed in the paper "demonstrate a correlation rather than proof of causation".

      • Figures and legends are clear and pleasing to the eye.

      Weaknesses:

      • This is an observational study, with no starting hypothesis being tested.

      • Only patients who were able to have a lavage taken have been recruited.

      • One set of analysis wasn't carried out for one subgroup (ICI-ILD) as PD1 expression was negative owing to the use of nivolumab.

      • Some immune cell subsets wouldn't be picked up with the markers and gating strategies used; e.g. NK cells.

      • Some immune cells would be disproportionately damaged by the storage, thawing and preparation of the samples; e.g. granulocytes.

      • Numbers are low (7 cases of PCP, 9 of DI-ILD, and 9 of ICI-ILD), sex, age and adverse event matching wasn't performed, and treatment regimen are varied and 'suspected' (suggesting incomplete clinical data) - but these are difficult samples to collect. These numbers drop further for some analyses e.g. T cell clustering owing to factors such as low cell number.

      • The disease comparisons are with each other, there is no healthy control.

      • Samples are taken at one time point.

      • The discussion on probably the stand out result - the CD16+ T cells in PCP - relies on two papers - leading to a slightly skewed emphasis on one paper on CD16+ cells in COVID. There are other papers out there that have observed CD16+ T cells in other conditions. It is also worth being in mind that given the markers used, these CD16+ T cell may be gamma deltas.

      • The discussion on ICI patient consistently showing increased PD1, could have been greater, as given the ICI is targeting PD1, one would expect the opposite as commented on, and observed, in the methods section.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Yanagihara and colleagues investigated the immune cell composition of bronchoalveolar lavage fluid (BALF) samples in a cohort of patients with malignancy undergoing chemotherapy and with with lung adverse reactions including Pneumocystis jirovecii pneumonia (PCP) and immune-checkpoint inhibitors (ICIs) or cytotoxic drug induced interstitial lung diseases (ILDs). Using mass cytometry, their aim was to characterize the cellular and molecular changes in BAL to improve our understanding of their pathogenesis and identify potential biomarkers and therapeutic targets. In this regard, the authors identify a correlation between CD16 expression in T cells and the severity of PCP and an increased infiltration of CD57+ CD8+ T cells expressing immune checkpoints and FCLR5+ B cells in ICI-ILD patients.

      The conclusions of this paper are mostly well supported by data, but some aspects of the data analysis need to be clarified and extended.

      1) The authors should elaborate on why different set of markers were selected for each analysis step. E.g., Different set of markers were used for UMAP, CITRUS and viSNE in the T cell and myeloid analysis.

      2) The authors should state if a normality test for the distribution of the data was performed. If not, non-parametric tests should be used.

      3) The authors should explore the correlation between CD16 intensity and the CTCAE grade in T cell subsets such as EMRA CD8 T cells, effector memory CD4, etc as identified in Figure 1B.

      4) The authors could use CITRUS to better assess the B cell compartment.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      The authors collected BALF samples from lung cancer patients newly diagnosed with PCP, DI-ILD or ICI-ILD. CyTOF was performed on these samples, using two different panels (T-cell and B-cell/myeloid cell panels). Results were collected, cleaned-up, manually gated and pre-processed prior to visualisation with manifold learning approaches t-SNE (in the form of viSNE) or UMAP, and analysed by CITRUS (hierarchical clustering followed by feature selection and regression) for population identification - all using Cytobank implementation - in an attempt to identify possible biomarkers for these disease states. By comparing cell abundances from CITRUS results and qualitative inspection of a small number of marker expressions, the authors claimed to have identified an expansion of CD16+ T-cell population in PCP cases and an increase in CD57+ CD8+ T-cells, FCRL5+ B-cells and CCR2+ CCR5+ CD14+ monocytes in ICI-ILD cases.

      By the authors' own admission, there is an absence of healthy donor samples and, perhaps as a result of retrospective experimental design, also an absence of pre-treatment samples. The entire analysis effectively compares three yet-established disease states with no common baseline - what really constitutes a "biomarker" in such cases? The introduction asserts that "y characterizing the cellular and molecular changes in BAL from patients with these complications, we aim to improve our understanding of their pathogenesis and identify potential therapeutic targets" (lines 82-84). Given these obvious omissions, no real "changes" have been studied in the paper. These are very limited comparisons among three, and only these three, states.

      Even assuming more thorough experimental design, the data analysis is unfortunately too shallow and has not managed to explore the wealth of information that could potentially be extracted from the results. CITRUS is accessible and convenient, but also make a couple of big assumptions which could affect data analysis - 1) Is it justified to concatenate all FCS files to analyse the data in one batch / small batches? Could there be batch effects or otherwise other biological events that could confuse the algorithm? 2) With a relatively small number of samples, and after internal feature selection of CITRUS, is the regression model suitable for population identification or would it be too crude and miss out rare populations? There are plenty of other established methods that could be used instead. Have those methods been considered?

      Colouring t-SNE or UMAP (e.g. Figure 6C) plots by marker expression is useful for quick identification of cell populations but it is not a quantitative analysis. In a CyTOF analysis like this, it is common to work out fold changes of marker expressions between conditions. It is inadequate to judge expression levels and infer differences simply by looking at colours.

      The relatively small number of samples also mean that most results presented in the paper are not statistical significant. Whilst it is understandable that it is not always possible to collect a large number of patient samples for studies like this, having several entire major figures showing "n.s." (e.g. Figures 3A, 4B and 5C), together with limitations in the comparisons themselves and inadequate analysis, make the observations difficult to be convincing, and even less so for the single fatal PCP case where N = 1.

      It would also be good scientific practice to show evidence of sample data quality control. Were individual FCS files examined? Did the staining work? Some indication of QC would also be great.

      This dataset generated and studied by the authors have the potential to address the question they set out to answer and thus potentially be useful for the field. However, in the current state of presentation, more evidence and more thorough data analysis are needed to draw any conclusions, or correlations, as the authors would like to frame them.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This paper provides useful information about how the ionome of Arabidopsis thaliana adapts to very high CO2-levels, backed up by solid evidence and carefully designed studies. However, the broader claims of the paper about climate change and food security - heavily emphasized in the abstract, introduction, and discussion - are inappropriate, as there is no direct link to the presented work.

      We sincerely thank you for the work you have done in reviewing our manuscript. We very much appreciate your overall positive assessment of the experimental work as a whole, its value and robustness.

      In this revised version, we took on board the majority of your suggestions and your comments. In particular, we understood your critical point about overstating our objectives, which might in turn seem uncorrelated with our results. We fully agree with the comments that have been made on this point. Consequently, we have made substantial modifications and corrections in order to clarify our objectives and their implications: exploring in depth the natural variation of the shoot ionome response to elevated CO2, and generating a valuable resource allowing a better understanding of the genetic and molecular mechanisms involved in the regulation of plant mineral nutrition by the elevation of atmospheric CO2.

      We also made modifications in response to the other suggestions, including a clarification of the functional experiments carried out around the function of TIP2;2 in response to elevated CO2. Figure 7 now comprises the comparison between both ambient and elevated CO2 conditions, which is much more informative that what appeared in the previous version.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The study's abstract, introduction, and conclusions are not supported by the methods and results conducted. In fact, the results presented suggest that Arabidopsis could easily adapt to an extremely high CO2 environment.

      We understand the reviewer’s comment. Although our work is considered useful, robust and well designed, we agree with the reviewer's point. We have certainly overemphasized the significance of our work to address the issue of food security in response to rising atmospheric CO2, at the expense of the factual description of the results of our fundamental study of the mechanisms at the interface between CO2 and mineral nutrition. We have clarified this focus by modifying the text of the introduction, objectives and discussion. We hope that these modifications will enable readers to better appreciate the core of this work.

      Regarding the last part of the comment, our results do suggest that genetic variation could allow adaptation to rising atmospheric CO2, and our study does indeed aim to identify the extent and basis of this genetic variation.

      This study offers good evidence pointing to a genetic basis for Arabidopsis thaliana's response to elevated CO2 (eCO2) levels and its subsequent impact on the leaf ionome. The natural variation analyses in the study support the hypothesis that genetic factors, rather than local adaptation, guide the influence of eCO2 on the ionome of rosette leaves in Arabidopsis. However, the manuscript's claim regarding its role in "the development of biofortified crops adapted to a high-CO2 world" (line 23) is overstated, especially given the absence of any analysis on the influence of eCO2 on the seed ionome and Arabidopsis is a poor model for harvest index for any crop. The manuscript, in its current form, necessitates massive revisions, particularly in clarifying its broader implications and in providing more substantial evidence for some of its assertions.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment, and we would like to thank the reviewer for the positive appreciation for the identification of genetic basis for Arabidopsis thaliana's response to elevated CO2 and its subsequent impact on the leaf ionome. Nevertheless, it is true that the study of the leaf ionome is far from being able to lead to the development of biofortified plants. Some papers described that nutrient harvest index in Arabidopsis is a potential indicator of nutrient use efficiency (for instance, Masclaux-Daubresse and Chardon, Journal of Experimental Botany 2011 or Aranjuelo et al., Journal of Experimental Botany 2013). However, as we did not include any seed ionome data in the paper, we added clear mentions that our analyses were made on leaves (lines 56/57/250/319) and a comment in the discussion section to address this limitation (lines 325-328).

      Major Drawbacks and Questions:

      (1) Evidence for the Central Premise:

      The foundational premise of the study is the assertion that rising atmospheric CO2 levels result in a decline in plant mineral content. This phenomenon is primarily observed in C3 plants, with C4 plants seemingly less affected. The evidence provided on this topic is scant and, in some instances, contradicts the authors' own references. The potential reduction of certain minerals, especially in grains, can be debated. For instance, reduced nitrogen (N) and phosphorus (P) content in grains might not necessarily be detrimental for human and animal consumption. In fact, it could potentially mitigate issues like nitrogen emissions and phosphorus leaching. Labeling this as a "major threat to food security" (line 30) is exaggerated. While the case for microelements might be more compelling, the introduction fails to articulate this adequately. Furthermore, the introduction lacks any discussion on how eCO2 might influence nutrient allocation to grains, which would be crucial in substantiating the claim that eCO2 poses a threat to food security. A more comprehensive introduction that clearly delineates the adverse effects of eCO2 and its implications for food security would greatly enhance the manuscript.

      We partially agree with this comment. The decline in mineral status of C3 plants under conditions of elevated atmospheric CO2 has been widely described in the literature, and specifically documented for the cereal grains. While there are variations in this effect (depending on species, ecotype, cultivar), there is no debate about its acceptance. Here are just a few of the many works describing this effect, both on a global scale and at the level of the individual plant (Cotrufo MF (1998) Elevated CO2 reduces the nitrogen concentration of plant tissues. Global Change Biology 4: 43-54; Loladze I (2014) Hidden shift of the ionome of plants exposed to elevated CO(2)depletes minerals at the base of human nutrition. eLife 3: e02245; Myers SS (2014) Increasing CO2 threatens human nutrition. Nature 510: 139-142; Poorter H (1997) The effect of elevated CO2 on the chemical composition and construction costs of leaves of 27 C3 species. Plant, Cell & Environment 20: 472-482 ; Soares JC (2019) Preserving the nutritional quality of crop plants under a changing climate: importance and strategies. Plant and Soil 443: 1-26; Stitt] M (1999) The interaction between elevated carbon dioxide and nitrogen nutrition: the physiological and molecular background. Plant, Cell & Environment 22: 583-621; Uddling J (2018) Crop quality under rising atmospheric CO2. Curr Opin Plant Biol 45: 262-267).

      In addition to this, the threat to food security posed by this alteration in plant mineral status has also been well described in the literature by several modeling approaches (Beach RH (2019) Combining the effects of increased atmospheric carbon dioxide on protein, iron, and zinc availability and projected climate change on global diets: a modelling study. Lancet Planet Health 3: e307-e317; Ebi KL (2019) Elevated atmospheric CO(2) concentrations and climate change will affect our food's quality and quantity. Lancet Planet Health 3: e283-e284; Medek DE (2017) Estimated Effects of Future Atmospheric CO2 Concentrations on Protein Intake and the Risk of Protein Deficiency by Country and Region. Environ Health Perspect 125: 087002; Smith MR (2018) Impact of anthropogenic CO2 emissions on global human nutrition. Nature Climate Change 8: 834-839; Weyant C (2018) Anticipated burden and mitigation of carbon-dioxide-induced nutritional deficiencies and related diseases: A simulation modeling study. PLoS Med 15: e1002586; Zhu C (2018) Carbon dioxide (CO2) levels this century will alter the protein, micronutrients, and vitamin content of rice grains with potential health consequences for the poorest rice-dependent countries. Sci Adv 4: eaaq1012). To reinforce this point, we have added a sentence and references (lines 30-33). Nevertheless, we understand the reviewer's comment on the nuance to be given to the intensity of this potential threat. We have therefore modified the text, replacing "major threat" by "significant threat" (lines 3 and 29).

      We also would like to answer the reviewer’s comment on the potential environmental benefit associated with reduced N and P content in grains (mitigation of N emissions and P leaching). Indeed, if this reduced N and P content results from a lowered use efficiency of soil nutrients by plants, as suggested by several studies (Bloom 2010, Cassan 2023, Gojon 2023 and references therein), this may at the opposite favor N oxides emission and P leaching from the soil.

      (2) Exaggerated Concerns:

      The paper begins with the concern that carbon fertilization will lead to carbon dilution in our foods. While we indeed face numerous genuine threats in the coming decades, this particular issue is manageable. The increase in CO2 alone offers many opportunities for boosting yield. However, the heightened heat and increased evapotranspiration will pose massive challenges in many environments.

      While there are indeed multiple threats that we are facing in the coming decades, we don't fully agree with this comment. At present, there's no evidence to say that the negative effect of CO2 on plant mineral content will be manageable. Furthermore, there is compelling evidence that altered mineral nutrition and mineral status of plants will be an important factor limiting the high CO2-induced increase in yield, as will be heat or increased evapotranspiration (see for instance Coskun et al (2016) Nutrient constraints on terrestrial carbon fixation: The role of Nitrogen. J. Plant Physiol. 203: 95-109; Jiang M (2020) Low phosphorus supply constrains plant responses to elevated CO2 : A meta-analysis. Glob Chang Biol 26: 5856-5873 ; Reich PB (2006) Nitrogen limitation constrains sustainability of ecosystem response to CO2. Nature 440: 922-925). Thus, although we do not negate the crucial importance of heat and water stress, we believe it is relevant to study the basic mechanisms responsible for the negative effect of CO2 on plant mineral composition.

      Figure 4 in fact suggests that 43% of the REGMAP panel (cluster 3) is already pre-adapted to very high CO2 levels. This suggests annual species could adapt very rapidly.

      We agree with the reviewer. However, this suggests that genetic variation exists in some ecotypes to support adaptation to elevated CO2. The purpose of this work is indeed to identify this genetic variation, in order to characterize the mechanisms behind.

      (3) Assumptions on CO2 Levels:

      The assumption of 900ppm seems to be based on a very extreme climate change scenario. Most people believe we will overshoot the 1.5°C scenario, however, it seems plausible that 2.5 to 3°C scenarios are more likely. This would correspond to around 500ppm of CO2. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41597-022-01196-7/tables/4

      We agree with the reviewer that the CO2 concentration we used corresponds to a high value in the IPCC projections. That said, this value is currently considered very plausible: the following figure (from Smith and Myers (2018) Nature Climate Change) shows that current CO2 emissions align with the IPCC's most extreme model (RCP 8.5), which would result in a CO2 concentration of around 900 ppm in 2100. Furthermore, nothing allows to exclude the 4°C scenario in the 6th IPCC report.

      Author response image 1.

      (4) Focus on Real Challenges:

      We have numerous real challenges, such as extreme heat and inconsistent rainfall, to address in the context of climate change. However, testing under extreme CO2 conditions and then asserting that carbon dilution will negatively impact nutrition is exaggerated.

      While we fully agree that several threats linked to climate change exist, and all deserve to be studied, we find it questionable to consider that the potential effect of high CO2 on the mineral nutrition of plants is not a real challenge. The mineral nutrition of plants is already a current major environmental challenge. This perspective seems to reflect the reviewer's personal opinion rather than an analysis of our work.

      In contrast, the FACE experiments are fundamental and are conducted at more realistic eCO2 levels. Understanding the interaction between a 20% increase in CO2 and new precipitation patterns is key for global carbon flux prediction.

      Again, we do not fully understand this comment, as the aim of our study was not to perform a global carbon flux prediction, but to unravel genes and mechanisms underlying the negative effect of elevated CO2 on the nutrient content of Arabidopsis rosettes. However, we agree with the reviewer’s comment and with the fact that FACE are useful facilities to explore the CO2 response in more natural environments, and we highlight the fact that the decrease in mineral status of C3 plants has been widely documented in FACE studies. FACE experiments do not facilitate, however, to conduct fully controlled experiments (temperature, rainfall, wind and light intensities are not controllable in FACE), that allow to disentangle the mechanisms by which elevated CO2 regulates the signaling pathways associated with the plant mineral composition. In the longer term, studying the mechanisms we have identified in a more global context of climate change could be highly relevant.

      As I look at the literature on commercial greenhouse tomato production, 1000ppm of eCO2 is common, but it also looks like the breeders and growers have already solved for flavor and nutrition under these conditions.

      Indeed, tomato is often cultivated in CO2-enriched greenhouses at 1000 ppm. According to the literature, this results in a 20-25% reduction in vitamin C or lycopene, and requires a significantly higher nitrogen and water intake to reach expected sugar levels (Doddrell H (2023) Horticulture Research). In addition, the negative effect of elevated CO2 on tomato nutrient content seems to have significant repercussions on nutrition-health properties (Boufeldja (2023), Molecules).

      Conclusion:

      While the study provides valuable insights into the genetic underpinnings of Arabidopsis thaliana's response to elevated CO2 levels, it requires an entirely revised writeup, especially in its abstract, broader claims and implications. The manuscript would benefit from a more thorough introduction, a clearer definition of its scope, and a clear focus on the limits of this study.

      We thank the reviewer for the comments made on our manuscript. In addition to the responses that we provide to these comments, we have modified the main text of the introduction, objectives and discussion to take these comments into consideration. We believe that this will significantly improve the manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Strengths:

      The authors have conducted a large, well-designed experiment to test the response to eCO2. Overall, the experimental design is sound and appropriate for the questions about how a change in CO2 affects the ionome of Arabidopsis. Most of the conclusions in this area are well supported by the data that the authors present.

      We thank the reviewer for this positive appreciation.

      Weakness:

      While the authors have done good experiments, it is a big stretch from Arabidopsis grown in an arbitrary concentration of CO2 to relevance to human and animal nutrition in future climates. Arabidopsis is a great model plant, but its leaves are not generally eaten by humans or animals.

      We agree with the reviewer’s comment. We recognized that implying a direct contribution of our work to human nutrition in the future climates is overstated, as mentioned by the reviewer 1 as well. This was not an intentional overstatement, as we have always been convinced that our work contributed to the understanding of the basic mechanisms involved in the negative regulation of plant mineral nutrition by high CO2. We have significantly modified the text to correct any misunderstanding of our work’s implication.

      The authors don't justify their choice of a CO2 concentration. Given the importance of the parameter for the experiment, the rationale for selecting 900 ppm as elevated CO2 compared to any other concentration should be addressed. And CO2 is just one of the variables that plants will have to contend with in future climates, other variables will also affect elemental concentrations.

      We agree with this comment. We added a justification of the high CO2 concentration used in this work in the Material and Methods section (lines 343-344). You can also read the explanation of this choice in the response to the reviewer 1’s point 3.

      Given these concerns, I think the emphasis on biofortification for future climates is unwarranted for this study.

      Anew, we agree with this comment and we have significantly modified the text to correct any misunderstanding of our work’s implication.

      Additionally, I have trouble with these conclusions:

      -Abstract "Finally, we demonstrate that manipulating the function of one of these genes can mitigate the negative effect of elevated CO2 on the plant mineral composition."

      -Discussion "Consistent with these results, we show that manipulating TIP2;2 expressions with a knock-out mutant can modulate the Zn loss observed under high CO2."

      The authors have not included the data to support this conclusion as stated. They have shown that this mutant increases the Zn content of the leaves when compared to WT but have not demonstrated that this response is different than in ambient CO2. This is an important distinction: one way to ameliorate the reduction of nutrients due to eCO2 is to try to identify genes that are involved in the mechanism of eCO2-induced reduction. Another way is to increase the concentration of nutrients so that the eCO2-induced reduction is not as important (i.e. a 10% reduction in Zn due to eCO2 is not as important if you have increased the baseline Zn concentration by 20%). The authors identified tip2 as a target from the GWAS on difference, but their validation experiment only looks at eCO2.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment, and we agree with it. It is much more interesting, especially in the context of this paper, to analyze the function of a candidate gene not only in elevated CO2, but in both ambient and elevated CO2. Therefore, we added in Figure 7 data for the expression of TIP2;2 in contrasted haplotypes under ambient CO2, in comparison to those already presented under elevated CO2 (now Fig. 7C and 7D). This showed that TIP2;2 expression is lower in haplotype 0 also under ambient CO2. We also added in Figure 7 (Fig. 7E) the Zn level in WT and tip2;2-1 mutant under ambient CO2, in comparison to those already presented under elevated CO2. This showed that that the tip2;2-1 mutant line did not present any decrease in Zn shoot content in response to elevated CO2, in opposition to what is observed for the WT.

      We have added comments associated to these new results in the Results and Discussion sections and in the discussion section (lines 233-242 in the results section, and lines 310-314 in the discussion section).

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Reviewer Comments on the Article's Approach to Ionome Analysis

      (1) Omission of Phosphorus from the Ionome:

      It's surprising that phosphorus (P) was not measured in the ionome. After nitrogen (N), P is often the most limiting mineral for plant development and yield, making it a significant component of the ionome. Why did the authors omit this crucial element?

      We agree with the reviewer that P is an important mineral for plant growth. The absence of data related to P content is due to feasibility constraints rather than oversight. The MP-AES instrument we used to analyze the ionome (except N and C, that we obtained from an Elementar Analyzer) would have required an extra-step and an extra-analysis to obtain data for macronutrient such as P or K. In the context of this large-scale experiment, we faced the necessity to compromise and proceed without these data.

      (2) Relationship Between Leaf Ionome and Seed:

      The manuscript lacks evidence demonstrating the relationship between the leaf ionome and the seed. This connection is vital to establish the study's aims as outlined in lines 20-24. If the central argument is that eCO2 threatens food security, it's essential for the authors to either:

      • Provide evidence that eCO2 induces changes in the ionome profiles of seeds.

      • Show that changes in the rosette leaf ionome lead to alterations in seed ionome profiles.

      We agree with the reviewer. Although we know that seed ionome composition of Arabidopsis model accession such as Columbia is indeed negatively affected by eCO2, we do not provide the data that support some of the terms used in lines 20-24. The correspondence between leaf and seed ionome in natural population under eCO2 is certainly a next question that we will address. Therefore, to align our stated objectives with our data, we have modified the sentence in lines 20-24. We also added a comment on this point lines on the discussion section (lines 324-328).

      (3) Analysis of Ionome in Rosette Leaves:

      Why did the authors choose to analyze the ionome specifically in rosette leaves? Is there a known correlation between the ionome profile in rosette leaves and seeds?

      See our answer to the above comment.

      (4) Experimental Design Comments:

      • The layout of the accession growouts, the methods of randomization, blocking, and controls/checks should be detailed.

      • Were BLUEs (Best Linear Unbiased Estimators) or BLUPs (Best Linear Unbiased Predictors) employed to account for experimental design conditions? If not, it's recommended that they be used.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. A note on replicates has been added in the Method/Plant Material section. Concerning the BLUEs/BLUPs, although I am not familiar with their use, I do not think that these approaches are relevant in our experimental design. Indeed, we pooled 3 to 5 replicates for each accession to measure the ionome (as mentioned in the Method/Ionome analysis section – we realized this was perhaps not clear enough, and thus we reinforced this point in this section). Therefore, we do not have the variance data required to perform BLUEs/BLUPs.

      (5) Carbon Dilution Effect:

      The statement, "The first component of the PCA described a clear antagonistic trend between C content and the change of other mineral elements (Fig. 3B)..." suggests a well-understood carbon dilution effect. These results are anticipated and align with existing knowledge.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. However, this sentence does not relate to the biomass dilution hypothesis referred to by the reviewer. Indeed, the composition of each mineral (C and others) is expressed as a percentage of biomass, not as an absolute value. Therefore, this reflects more a probable effect of the increase in carbon compounds (notably soluble sugars), which could influence mineral composition.

      (6) Heritability Estimates:

      The authors should report both the broad-sense heritability and an estimate of heritability based on a GRM or Kinship matrix.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We are skeptical of using a kinship matrix to estimate heritability in our study. Estimating narrow-sense heritability using a kinship matrix is conceptually based on the infinitesimal model of Fisher, thereby meaning that phenotypic variation is driven by hundreds to thousands of QTLs with small effects. If this is the case, GWAS conducted on several hundred (or even thousands) of genotypes will not be powerful enough to detect such QTLs. Accordingly, estimates of broad-sense heritability based on estimates of variance components can drastically differ from estimates of narrow-sense heritability based on the use of a kinship matrix, as illustrated in the study of Bergelson et al. (2019 Scientific Reports).

      (7) Application of the Breeder's Equation:

      It would be beneficial if the authors applied the breeder's equation to estimate the species' potential rate of response. Based on the allele frequency of the adapted cluster 3 (69 ecotypes or 43% frequency of Figure 3B), it seems plausible that the populations could adapt within 23 generations.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. Indeed, it would be really interesting to test whether sub-populations could adapt in comparison with others, and over what period of time. It is nevertheless not possible to do so using the Breeder’s equation in our case, as this requires fitness data under conditions of ambient or elevated CO2 (i.e. production of seeds) to be applied, and we do not have these data at the level of the whole population.

      (8) Overall Quality:

      In general, the authors have executed a high-quality ionome mapping experiment. However, the abstract, introduction, and discussion should be entirely rewritten and reframed.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive evaluation of our experiment. As previously mentioned, we are for the most part in agreement with the comments made about the need to align our stated objectives with our experimental data and conclusions. To do so, we have rewritten part of the abstract, introduction and discussion. The details of these modifications are described in the responses made to each comment.

      Here's a line-by-line list of suggestions on writing:

      Line 30 would read better with a comma after thus (or by replacing thus with therefore and then a comma at the start of the sentence).

      Line 33 nevertheless would read better in between commas.

      Lines 45 - 48 sentence is too long, could probably divide it into two.

      Lines 90 - 94 are hard to interpret, recommend rephrasing for clarity.

      Line 130 - keep verbs in the past tense for consistency (ran instead of run).

      Line 194 - what do the authors mean by crossed? I'm inferring they looked at the intersection of DEGs with the list of genes identified by GWA mapping, probably should use a more concise word.

      There's a concurrent use of the adjective strong (Lines 80, 142, 144, 197, 245). I would advise using a more concise adjective or avoiding its use to let the reader form their own opinion on the data.

      Lines 174-176 the cited reference (No. 15) is incorrect. The study by Katz et al. (2022) does not provide information on the role of ZIF1 in zinc sequestration mechanisms under elevated CO2 conditions.

      We thank the reviewer for these detailed recommendations. We have corrected or rephrased the text according to these suggestions.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Technical points:

      900 ppm as elevated CO2: Given the importance of the parameter for the experiment, the rationale for selection 900 ppm as elevated CO2 compared to any other concentration should be addressed.

      We acknowledge the reviewer's point and have previously addressed related aspects earlier in our response. In line with this, we have included a justification for this particular parameter in the Method section.

      The authors do not mention what genotype was used for their root/shoot RNAseq experiment.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment, and indeed, this information was not mentioned. This is now done, in the Method section.

      Line 125: Spelling error "REGMPA".

      This has been corrected.

      Line 338: Removal of outlier observations - "Prior to GWAS and multivariate analyses such as PCA or clustering, mineral composition measures were pre-processed to remove technical outliers". The authors should mention the exact number of outliers that were removed and what the explicit criteria were for removal.

      The number of outliers removed from each dataset is now indicated in Supplemental Table 7 (this is cited in the Method section). The explicit criteria used for this analysis is actually mentioned in the corresponding Method section: “the values positioned more than 5 median absolute deviations away from the median were removed from the dataset”.

      Line 379: "Lowly expressed genes with an average value across conditions under 25 reads were excluded from the analysis". Providing information about the number of the lowly expressed genes that were removed from the analysis can help with the interpretation of the likelihood of the candidates selected being correct.

      This is a standard procedure in RNAseq analysis. It avoids many false positives in the differential analysis of gene expression based on ratios (where a very small number in the denominator can lead to a very high variation in expression, of no real significance). For information, this step led to the removal of 11607 and 10121 genes for the shoot and root datasets.

      Line 384: It's not clear how many biological replicates were used.

      This has been corrected.

      Additional comment: We have also become aware of a confusion concerning one of the candidate genes located close to GWA peaks: line 180 of the first version, we mentioned CAX1 (AT1G16380) for its role on nutrient deficiency response. There are actually two genes annotated as CAX1 in TAIR (both are cation exchangers), but the one involved in nutrient deficiency response is AT2G38170. We therefore removed the sentence mentioning AT1G16380/CAX1 as a potential candidate gene.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      This paper performed a functional analysis of the poorly characterized pseudo-phosphatase Styxl2, one of the targets of the Jak/Stat pathway in muscle cells. The authors propose that Styxl2 is essential for de novo sarcomere assembly by regulating autophagic degradation of non-muscle myosin IIs (NM IIs). Although a previous study by Fero et al. (2014) has already reported that Styxl2 is essential for the integrity of sarcomeres, this study provides new mechanistic insights into the phenomenon. In vivo studies in this manuscript are compelling; however, I feel the contribution of autophagy in the degradation of NM IIs is still unclear.

      Major concerns:

      1) The contribution of autophagy in the degradation of Myh9 is still unclear to this reviewer.

      It has been reported that autophagy is dispensable for sarcomere assembly in mice (Cell Metab, 2009, PMID; 1994508). In Fig. 7A, the authors showed that overexpressed Styxl2 downregulated the amount of ectopically expressed Myh9 in an ATG5-dependent manner in C2C12 cells; however, the experiment is far from a physiological condition. Therefore, the authors should test ATG5 knockdown and the genetic interaction between Styxl2 and ATG5 in vivo. That is, 1) loss of ATG5 on sarcomere assembly in zebrafish, and 2) the genetic interaction between Styxl2 and ATG5; co-injection of Styxl2 mRNA and ATG5-MO into the zebrafish embryos.

      Our response: In fact, the reference cited by the reviewer (Cell Metab, 2009; PMID; 19945408) clearly indicated that autophagy is required for sarcomere assembly. Moreover, another paper using the fish extraocular muscle regeneration model (Autophagy, 2014, PMID: 27467399), also showed that the sarcomere structure was disrupted in the regenerated muscles when autophagy was inhibited by chloroquine. In addition, other references (Nature medicine, 2007, PMID: 17450150; Autophagy, 2010, PMID: 20431347) also showed that loss of Atg5 in mouse cardiac muscles led to disorganized sarcomere structure. We also performed the Atg5 knockdown experiments as suggested by the reviewer. However, the sarcomere structure defects were not so obvious as Styxl2 knockdown (see Author response image 1 below). In fact, it was reported that Atg5 knockdown may not be a desirable strategy to disrupt autophagy as it was found “--- only a small amount of Atg5 is needed for autophagy, knockdown of Atg5 to levels low enough to block autophagy might be difficult to achieve, --” (Nature medicine, 2007, PMID: 17450150). Due to the ineffectiveness of the Atg5 MO in our assays, we did not perform the second experiment suggested by the reviewer. Moreover, as Styxl2 is not a key component of the autophagy machinery, it is less likely that overexpression of Styxl2 alone can rescue the autophagy defects caused by Atg5.

      Author response image 1.

      The fish zygotes were injected with Atg5 or Ctrl MO. 48 hpf, the fish were stained with an anti-Actinin antibody. Some fast muscle fibers were disrupted when Atg5 was knocked down. The number in numerator at the bottom of each image represents fish embryos showing normal Actinin staining pattern, while that in denominator represents the total number of embryos examined. Scale bar, 10 µm.

      2) As referenced, Yamamoto et al. reported that Myh9 is degraded by autophagy. Mechanistically, Nek9 acts as an autophagic adaptor that bridges Atg8 and Myh9 through interactions with both. Inconsistent with the model, the authors mentioned on page 12, lines 365-367, "A recent report showed that Myh9 could also undergo Nek9-mediated selective autophagy (Yamamoto et al., 2021), suggesting that Myh9 is ubiquitinated". I think it is not yet explored whether autophagic degradation of Myh9 requires its ubiquitination. Moreover, I cannot judge whether Myh9 is ubiquitinated in a Styxl2-dependent manner from the data in Fig. 7C. The author should test whether Nek9 is required for Myh9 degradation in muscles. If Nek plays a role in the Myh9 degradation, it would be better to remove Fig. 7C.

      Our response: Indeed, as pointed out by the reviewer, it has not been explored whether Myh9 is ubiquitinated or not. However, it has been well-established that some proteins undergoing autophagic degradation are ubiquitinated, which are linked to Atg8/LC3 via p62 and NBR1 (Mol Cell, 2009, PMID: 19250911; J Biol Chem, 2007, PMID: 17580304). To improve the data quality, we repeated the Myh9 ubiquitination experiment in cells with or without Styxl2 by using a slightly different strategy: as shown in the revised Figure 7C, we first co-transfect HEK 293T cells with HA-Myh9, Myc-ubiquitin, and Flag-Styxl2. We then immunoprecipitated Myc-tagged Ubiquitin from the whole cell lysates, and then blot for HAMyh9. We detected an obvious increase in Ubiquitin-conjugated HA-Myh9 (revised Figure 7C). As suggested by the reviewer, we also tested whether knockdown of Nek9 affects the degradation of Myh9. We failed to detect an obvious effect (see Author response image 2 below) caused by Nek9 knockdown. One possible explanation for this negative result is that Nek9 itself is a negative regulator of selective autophagy (J Biol Chem, 2020, PMID: 31857374). By knocking it down, the functions of the autophagy machinery are expected to be enhanced instead of being impaired. This may explain why we failed to detect an effect on Myh9 degradation simply by knocking down Nek9. To further elucidate whether Nek9 is involved in Myh9 degradation in myoblasts, we may need to use a dominant-negative mutant of Nek9 missing the LCIII-binding motif as shown by Yamamoto (Nat Commun, 2021, PMID: 34078910). This will be addressed in our future study.

      Author response image 2.

      C2C12 cells were transfected with negative control siRNA (NC), siNek9#2 or siNek9#3. 18 h later, the cells were transfected with plasmids HA-Myh9 and Flag-Styxl2 or Flag-Stk24. After another 24 h, the cells were harvested for RT-qPCR (left panel) or western blot (right panel).

      3) In Fig. 5F, the protein level of Styxl2 and Myh10 should be checked because the efficiency of Myh10-MO was not shown anywhere in this manuscript.

      Our response: As suggested by the reviewer, a Western blot showing the protein levels of Myh10 was shown in Figure 5-figure supplement 1B.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The authors investigated the role of the Jak1-Stat1 signaling pathway in myogenic differentiation by screening the transcriptional targets of Jak1-Stat1 and identified Styxl2, a pseudophosphatase, as one of them. Styxl2 expression was induced in differentiating muscles. The authors used a zebrafish knockdown model and conditional knockout mouse models to show that Styxl2 is required for de novo sarcomere assembly but is dispensable for the maintenance of existing sarcomeres. Styxl2 interacts with the non-muscle myosin IIs, Myh9 and Myh10, and promotes the replacement of these non-muscle myosin IIs by muscle myosin IIs through inducing autophagic degradation of Myh9 and Myh10. This function is independent of its phosphatase domain.

      A previous study using zebrafish found that Styxl2 (previously known as DUSP27) is expressed during embryonic muscle development and is crucial for sarcomere assembly, but its mechanism remains unknown. This paper provides important information on how Styxl2 mediates the replacement of non-muscle myosin with muscle myosin during differentiation. This study may also explain why autophagy deficiency in muscles and the heart causes sarcomere assembly defects in previous mouse models.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Wu and colleagues are characterising the function of Styxl2 during muscle development, a pseudo-phosphatase that was already described to have some function in sarcomere morphogenesis or maintenance (Fero et al. 2014). The authors verify a role for Styxl2 in sarcomere assembly/maintenance using zebrafish embryonic muscles by morpholino knockdown and by a conditional Styxl2 allele in mice (knocked-out in satellite cells with Pax7 Cre).

      Experiments using a tamoxifen inducible Cre suggest that Styxl2 is dispensable for sarcomere maintenance and only needed for sarcomere assembly.

      BioID experiments with Styxl2 in C2C 12 myoblasts suggest binding of nonmuscle myosins (NMs) to Styxl2. Interestingly, both NMs are downregulated when muscles differentiate after birth or during regeneration in mice. This down-regulation is reduced in the Styxl2 mutant mice, suggesting that Styxl2 is required for the degradation of these NMs.

      Impressively, reducing one NM (zMyh10) by double morpholino injection in a Styxl2 morphant zebrafish, does improve zebrafish mobility and sarcomere structure. Degradation of Mhy9 is also stimulated in cell culture if Styxl2 is co-expressed. Surprisingly, the phosphatase domain is not needed for these degradation and sarcomere structure rescue effects. Inhibitor experiments suggest that Styxl2 does promote the degradation of NMs by promoting the selective autophagy pathway.

      Strengths:

      A major strength of the paper is the combination of various systems, mouse and fish muscles in vivo to test Styxl2 function, and cell culture including a C2C12 muscle cell line to assay protein binding or protein degradation as well as inhibitor studies that can suggest biochemical pathways.

      Weakness:

      The weakness of this manuscript is that the sarcomere phenotypes and also the western blots are not quantified. Hence, we rely on judging the results from a single image or blot. Also, Styxl2 role in sarcomere biology was not entirely novel.

      Few high resolution sarcomere images are shown, myosins have not been stained for.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor concerns:

      4) The position of molecular weight markers should be shown in all Western blot data.

      Our response: As suggested by the reviewer, the molecular weight markers have been added in the Western blot data.

      5) Schematic models of Styxl2deltaN509 and N513 construct would be helpful for the readers.

      Our response: A schematic has been added in Figure 6B (upper panel) to show Styxl2deltaN509 and Styxl2N513.

      6) Several data were described but not shown (data not shown). I think the data need to be included in the main or supplemental figures.

      Our response: As suggested by the reviewer, the raw data were now included in the Figure 6-figure supplement 1A and Figure 7-figure supplement 1.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      1) In Fig. 5E, the authors suggest that the needle touch response was improved by additional knockdown of Myh10. This is a bit confusing because the germline knockout of Myh10 is lethal (line 445). The authors should provide more explanation on this point. Additionally, it would be better to include Myh10-MO in Fig. 5E.

      Our response:<br /> In line 445 of our original manuscript, we stated that germline knockout of mouse Myh10 gene is lethal based on a published report (Proc Natl Acad Sci USA, 1997, PMID: 9356462). Here, in zebrafish zygotes, we only knocked down zMyh10, thus, we do not expect to get a lethal phenotype. In addition, other groups who knocked down Myh10 in fish also did not get a lethal phenotype (Dev Biol, 2015, PMID: 25446029). As to the control involving Myh10MO in the experiment in Fig.5E, we did include it in our experiments. As we did not observe any obvious effects on either motility or sarcomere structures, we did not include the data set in the figure.

      2) It was suggested that Myh9 and Myh10 form a complex (Rao et al. PLoS One 9, e114087, 2014). Thus, the IP experiments do not rule out the possibility that Styxl2 directly interacts with either Myh9 or Myh10 and indirectly with the other.

      Our response: In known myosin-II complexes, different myosin molecules can associate with each other through their tail domains (Bioarchitecture, 2013, PMID: 24002531). Thus, if we use fulllength myosin molecules in our co-immunoprecipitation assays, it will be difficult to exclude the possibility raised by the reviewer. However, by using truncated myosin proteins, we showed that the head domain of either Myh9 or Myh10 could interact with Styxl2 in the absence of the tail domain (Figure 4E, F). This result strongly suggests that both Myh9 and Myh10 can independently interact with Styxl2.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      1) The western blot shown in Figure 3B supporting the induced deletion of Styxl2 should be quantified. Ideally, some other blots, e.g., in Figure 5, too. Please add the age of the mice in Figure 5B to the figure legend.

      Our response:<br /> As suggested by the reviewer, we quantified the data in Figures.3B, 3F, 5B, 5D, and 7A and the data were included in the revised figures. In Fig.5B, we already indicated the age of the mice (i.e., P1) in the legend.

      2) A quantification of the sarcomere phenotypes in the double knock-down of zMyh10 and Styxl2 compared to Styxl2 single would make the paper significantly stronger. Furthermore, a double morpholino control should be included to rule out any RNAi machinery 'dilution effect'.

      Our response: As suggested by the reviewer, we quantified the sarcomere structures using the line scan analysis in ImageJ and the scan images were placed as inserts in the upper corner of the immunofluorescent images (revised Figures 5F, and 6C). To avoid potential “dilution effects”, in all the experiments involving the use of two different MOs, the total amount of MO was kept the same in all control samples by including a control MO (e.g., in samples treated with one specific MO, an equal amount of a control MO was also included, while in samples without any specific MO, twice as much control MO was used).

      3) The sarcomere phenotypes in figure 6 should also be better quantified, for example using simple line scans of the alpha-actinin stains and assay periodicity or calculating the autocorrelation coefficients. How about myosin stains?

      Our response: We quantified Figure 6C as suggested by the reviewer. We also performed myosin staining. The results were similar to that shown by the a-actinin antibody (see revised Figure 6-Fig supplement 1B).

      4) Do the authors see periodic NMs patterns in developing mouse muscle fibers as indicated by the model in in in figure 7D? It is unclear if nonmuscle myosin is present in a PERIODIC pattern in early myofibrils. NM myosin periodic patterns that have been observed have a periodicity of only about 1 µm fitting the shorter length of the NM bipolar filaments (about 300 nm only, PMID 28114270).

      Our response: The reviewer raised a good point here. Ideally, we should examine developing mouse muscle fibers to prove that NM shows periodic patterns. However, due to the difficulty in catching myocytes undergoing sarcomere assembly, the majority of the studies involving NM in sarcomeres use cultured cardiomyocytes. Using TA muscles from P1 new-born mice, we failed to detect the presence of NM in sarcomeres (see Author response image 3 below). Actually, nearly all the myofibers showed mature sarcomere pattern without the NM signal. More work is needed in the future to examine developing mouse fibers at different embryonic stages to look for the presence of NM in developing sarcomeres.

      Author response image 3.

      The TA muscles were collected from male and female P1 mice. The muscles were sectioned and co-stained for a-actinin (Actn) and Myh9. The majority of myofibrils is mature without the NM II signal. Scale bar, 10 µm.

      5) Recent work suggested that mechanical tension is key to assemble the first long periodic myofibril containing immature sarcomeres. Tension is likely produced by a combination of NM and Mhc in the assembling sarcomeres themselves. This could be included in the introduction or discussion (PMIDs 24631244, 29316444, 29702642, 35920628).

      Our response: We thank the reviewer for pointing to us additional relevant references. We have added them in the Introduction.

      6) I suggest replacing "sarcomeric muscles" with "striated muscles".

      Our response: We revised the term in the manuscript as suggested by the reviewer.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      We appreciate the valuable and constructive comments of Reviewer #1 on our manuscript. We have addressed the comments from Reviewer #1 in the public review in the response to the recommendations for the authors, as the public review comments largely overlap with that of the recommendations for the authors.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1.1) Figure 1 did not use a mock-infected control for the development of R-loops but only a time before infection. I think it would have been a good control to have that after the same time of infection non-infected cells did not show increases in R-loops and this is not a product of the cell cycle.

      We prepared our DRIPc-seq library using cell extracts harvested at 0, 3, 6, and 12 h post-infection (hpi), all at the same post-seeding time point. Each sample was infected with HIV-1 virus in a time-dependent manner. Therefore, it is unlikely that the host cellular R-loop induction observed in our DRIPc-seq results was due to R-loop formation during the cell cycle. In Lines 93–95 of the Results section of the revised manuscript, we have provided a more detailed description of our DRIPc-seq library experimental scheme. Thank you. 

      (1.2) Figure 2 should have included a figure showing the proportion of DRIPc-seq peaks located in different genome features relative to one another instead of whether they were influenced by time post-infection. Figure 2C was performed in HeLa cells, but primary T cell data would have been more relevant as primary CD4+ T cells are more relevant to HIV infection.

      We have included a new figure presenting the relative proportion of DRIPc-seq peaks mapped to different genomic features at each hpi (Fig. 2C of the revised manuscript). We found that the proportion of DRIPc-seq peaks mapped to various genomic compartments remained consistent over the hours following the HIV-1 infection. This further supports our original claim that HIV-1 infection does not induce R-loop enrichment at specific genomic features but that the accumulation of R-loops after HIV-1 infection is widely distributed.

      We considered HeLa cells as the primary in vitro infection model, therefore, we conducted RNA-seq only on HeLa cells. However, we agree with the reviewer's opinion that data from primary CD4+ T cells may be more physiologically relevant. Nevertheless, as demonstrated in the new figure (Fig. 2C of the revised manuscript), HIV-1 infection did not significantly alter the proportion of R-loop peaks mapped to specific genomic compartments, such as gene body regions, in HeLa, primary CD4+ T, and Jurkat cells. Therefore, we anticipate no clear correlation between changes in gene expression levels and R-loop peak detection upon HIV-1 infection, even in primary T cells. Thank you.   

      (1.3) Figure 5G is very hard to see when printed, is there a change in brightness or contrast that could be used? The arrows are helpful but they don't seem to be pointing to much.

      We have highlighted the intensity of the PLA foci and magnified the images in Fig. 5G in the revised manuscript. While editing the images according to your suggestion, we found a misannotation regarding the multiplicity of infection in the number of PLA foci per nucleus quantification analysis graph in Fig. 5G of the original manuscript. We have corrected this issue and hope that it is now much clearer. 

      (1.4) The introduction provided a good background for those who may not have a comprehensive understanding of DNA-RNA hybrids and R-loops, but the rationale that integration in non-expressed sequence implies that R-loops may be involved is very weak and was not addressed experimentally. A better rationale would have been to point out that, although integration in genes is strongly associated with gene expression, the association is not perfect, particularly in that some highly expressed genes are, nonetheless, poor integration targets.

      In accordance with the reviewer's comment, we revised the Introduction. We have deleted the statement and reference in the introduction "... the most favored region of HIV-1 integration is an intergenic locus, ...”, which may overstate the relevance of the R-loop in HIV-1 integration events in non-expressed sequences. Instead, we introduced a more recent finding that high levels of gene expression do not always predict high levels of integration, together with the corresponding citation (Lines 46– 47 of the revised manuscript), according to the reviewer’s suggestion in the reviewer's public review 2)-(a).

      (1.5) The discussion was seriously lacking in connecting their conclusions regarding R-loop targeting of integration to how integration works at the structural level, where it is very clear that concerted integration on the two DNA strands ca 5 bp apart is essential to correct, 2-ended integration. It is very difficult to visualize how this would be possible with the triple-stranded R-loop as a target. The manuscript would be greatly strengthened by an experiment showing concerted integration into a triplestranded structure in vitro using PICs or pure integrase.

      We believe there has been a misunderstanding of our interpretation regarding the putative role of R-loop structures in the HIV-1 integration site mechanism because of some misleading statements in our original manuscript. Based primarily on our current data, we believe that R-loop structures are bound by HIV-1 integrase proteins and lead to HIV-1 viral genome integration into the vicinity regions of the host genomic R-loops. By carefully revising our manuscript, we found that the title, abstract, and discussion of our original manuscript includes phrases, such as “HIV-1 targets R-loops for integration,” which may overstate our finding on the role of R-loop in HIV-1 integration site selection. We replaced these phrases. For example, we used phrases, such as, “HIV-1 favors vicinity regions of R-loop for the viral genome integration,” in the revised manuscript. We apologize for the inconvenience caused by the unclear and nonspecific details of our findings.  

      Using multiple biochemical experiments, we successfully demonstrated the interaction between the cellular R-loop and HIV-1 integrase proteins in cells and in vitro (Fig. 5 of the revised manuscript). However, we could not validate whether the center of the triple-stranded R-loops is the extraction site of HIV-1 integration, where the strand transfer reaction by integrase occurs. This is because an R-loop can be multi-kilobase in size (1, 2); therefore, we displayed a large-scale genomic region (30-kb windows) to present the integration sites surrounding the R-loop centers. Nevertheless, we believe that we validated R-loop-mediated HIV-1 integration in R-loop-forming regions using our pgR-poor and pgR-rich cell line models. When infected with HIV-1, pgR-rich cells, but not pgR-poor cells, showed higher infectivity upon R-loop induction in designated regions following DOX treatment (Fig. 3C and 3D of the revised manuscript). In addition, we quantified site-specific integration events in R-loop regions, and found that a greater number of integration events occurred in designated regions of the pgR-rich cellular genome upon R-loop induction by DOX treatment, but not in pgR-poor cells (Fig. 3E–G of the revised manuscript). 

      We agree with the reviewer that an experiment showing the concerted integration of purified PICs into a triple-stranded structure in vitro would greatly strengthen our manuscript. We attempted the purification of viral DNA (vDNA)-bound PICs using either Sso7d-tagged HIV-1 integrase proteins or non-tagged HIV-1 integrase proteins (F185K/C280S) procured from the NIH HIV reagent program (HRP-20203), following the method described by Passos et al., Science, 2017; 355 (89-92) (3). Despite multiple attempts, we could not purify the nucleic acid-bound protein complexes for in vitro integration assays. However, we believe that pgR-poor and pgR-rich cell line models provide a strong advantage in specificity of our primer readouts. Compounded with our in cellulo observation, we believe that our work provides strong evidence for a causative relationship between R-loop formation/R-loop sites and HIV-1 integration.

      Additionally, in the Discussion section of the revised manuscript, we have expanded our discussion on the role of genomic R-loops contributing in molding the host genomic environment for HIV-1 integration site selection, and the potential explanation on how R-loops are driving integration over long-range genomic regions. Thank you. 

      (1.6) There are serious concerns with the quantitation of integration sites used here, which should be described in detail following line 503 but isn't. In Figure 3, E-G, they are apparently shown as reads per million, while in Figure 4B as "sites (%)" and in 4C as log10 integration frequency." Assuming the authors mean what they say, they are using the worst possible method for quantitation. Counting reads from restriction enzyme-digested, PCR-digested DNA can only mislead. At the numbers provided (MOI 0.6, 10 µg DNA assayed) there would be about 1 million proviruses in the samples assayed, so the probability of any specific site being used more than once is very low, and even less when one considers that a 10% assay efficiency is typical of integration site assays. Although the authors may obtain millions of reads per experiment, the number of reads per site is an irrelevant value, determined only by technical artefacts in the PCR reactions, most significantly the length of the amplicons, a function of the distance from the integration site to the nearest MstII site, further modified by differences in Tm. Better is to collapse identical reads to 1 per site, as may have been done in Figure 4B, however, the efficiency of integration site detection will still be inversely related to the length of the amplicon. Indeed, if the authors were to plot the read frequency against distance to the nearest MstII site, it is likely that they would get plots much like those in Figure 4B.

      Detailed methods for integration site sequencing data processing are described in the Materials and Methods section of the revised manuscript (Line 621–631 of the revised manuscript). We primarily followed HIV-1 integration site sequencing data processing methods previously described by Li et al., mBio, 2020; 11(5) (4).  

      While it may be correct that the HIV-1 integration event cannot occur more than once at a given site, our Fig. 3E, 4C, and 4D of the revised manuscript present the number of integration-site sequencing read counts expressed in reads-per-million (RPM) units or as log10-normalized values. Based on the number of mapped reads from the integration site sequencing results, we can infer that there was an integration event at this site, whether it was a single or multiple event.

      We believe that the original annotation of y-axis, “Integration frequency,” may be misleading as it can be interpreted as a probability of any specific site being used for HIV-1 integration. Therefore, we corrected it as “number of mapped read” for clarity (Fig. 3E–G, 4C and 4D, and the corresponding figure legends of the revised manuscript). We apologize for any confusion. Thank you.

      Other points:

      (1.7) Overall: There are numerous grammatical and usage errors, especially in agreement of subject and verb, and missing articles, sometimes multiple times in the same sentence. These must be corrected prior to resubmission.

      The revised manuscript was edited by a professional editing service. Thank you.

      (1.8) Line 126-134: A striking result, but it needs more controls, as discussed above, including a dose-response analysis.

      We determined the doses of NVP and RAL inhibitors in HeLa cells by optimizing the minimum dose of drug treatment that provided a sufficient inhibitory effect on HIV1 infection (Author response image 1). The primary objective of this experiment was to determine R-loop formation while reverse transcription or integration of the HIV-1 life cycle was blocked, therefore, we do not think that a dose-dependent analysis of inhibitors is required.

      Author response image 1.

      (A and B) Representative flow cytometry histograms of VSV-G-pseudotyped HIV-1-EGFP-infected HeLa cells at an MOI of 1, harvested at 48 hpi. The cells were treated with DMSO, the indicated doses of nevirapine (NVP) (A) or indicated doses of raltegravir (RAL) (B) for 24 h before infection. 

      (1.9) Line 183: Please tell us what ECFP is and why it was chosen. Is there a reference for its failure to form R-loops?

      Ibid: The human AIRN gene is a very poor target for HIV integration in PBMC.

      A high GC skew value (> 0) is a predisposing factor for R-loop formation at the transcription site. This is because a high GC skew causes a newly synthesized RNA strand to hybridize to the template DNA strand, and the non-template DNA strand remains looped out in a single-stranded conformation (5) (Ref 36 in the revised manuscript). The ECFP sequence possessed a low GC skew value, as previously used for an R-loop-forming negative sequence (6) (Ref 17 of the revised manuscript). We have added this description and the corresponding references to Lines 188–192 of the revised manuscript.  

      The human AIRN gene (RefSeq DNA sequence: NC_000006.12) sequence possesses a GC skew value of -0.04, in a window centered at base 2186, while the mouse AIRN (mAIRN) sequence is characterized by a GC skew value of 0.213. The ECFP sequence gave a GC skew value of -0.086 in our calculation. We anticipated that the human AIRN gene region does not form a stable R-loop, and in fact, it did not harbor R-loop enrichment upon HIV-1 infection in our DRIPc-seq data analysis of multiple cell types (Author response image 2)

      Author response image 2.

      Genome browser screenshot over the chromosomal regions in 20-kb windows centered on human AIRN showing results from DRIPc-seq in the indicated HIV-1-infected cells (blue, 0 hpi; yellow, 3 hpi; green, 6 hpi; red, 12 hpi)

      (1.10) Line 190: You haven't shown dependence. Associated is a better word.

      Thank you for the suggestion. We have changed “R-loop-dependent site-specific HIV-1 integration events...” to “R-loop-associated site-specific HIV-1 integration events...” (Line 198 of the revised manuscript) according to the reviewer’s suggestion in the revised manuscript. 

      (1.11) Line 239: What happened to P1? What is the relationship of the P and N regions to genes?

      We have added superimpositions of the P1 chromatin region on DRIPc-seq and the HIV-1 integration frequency to Figure 4C of the revised manuscript. We observed a relevant integration event within the P1 R-loop region, but to a lesser extent than in the P2 and P3 R-loop regions, perhaps because the P1 region has relatively less R-loop enrichment than the P2 and P3 regions, as examined by DRIP-qPCR in S3A Fig. of the revised manuscript.

      Genome browser screenshots with annotations of accommodating genes in the P and N regions are shown in S2A–E Fig. of the revised manuscript, and RNA-seq analysis of the relative gene expression levels of the P1-3 and N1,2 R-loop regions are shown in S4 Table of the revised manuscript. Thank you.

      (1.12) Line 261: But the binding affinity of integrase to the R-loop is somewhat weaker than to double-stranded DNA according to Figure 5A.

      Nucleic acid substrates were loaded at the same molarity, and the percentage of the unbound fraction was calculated by dividing the intensity of the unbound fraction in each lane by the intensity of the unbound fraction in the lane with 0 nM integrase in the binding reaction. The calculated percentages of the unbound fraction from three independent replicate experiments are shown in Fig. 5A, right of the revised manuscript. In our analysis and measurements, the integrase proteins showed higher binding affinities to the R-loop and R-loop comprising nucleic acid structures than to dsDNA in vitro. We hope that this explanation clarifies this point. 

      (1.13) Line 337: "accumulate". This is a not uncommon misinterpretation of the results of studies on the distribution of intact proviruses in elite controllers. The only possible correct interpretation of the finding is that proviruses form everywhere else but cells containing them are eliminated, most likely by the immune system.

      Thank you for the suggestion. We have changed the Line 337 of the original manuscript to “... HIV-1 proviruses in heterochromatic regions are not eliminated but selected by immune system,” in Lines 361-363 of the revised manuscript. 

      (1.14) Line 371 How many virus particles per cell does this inoculum amount to?

      We determined the amount of GFP reporter viruses required to transduce ∼50% of WT Jurkat T cells, corresponding to an approximate MOI of 0.6. We repeatedly obtained 30–50% of VSV-G-pseudotyped HIV-1-EGFP positively infected cells for HIV1 integration site sequencing library construction for Jurkat T cells. 

      (1.15) Line 503 and Figures 3 and 4: There must be a clear description of how integration events are quantitated.

      Detailed methods for integration site sequencing data processing are described in the Materials and Methods section of the revised manuscript (Line 621–631 of the revised manuscript). We primarily followed HIV-1 integration site sequencing data processing methods previously described in Li et al., mBio, 2020; 11(5) (4).

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Retroviral integration in general, and HIV integration in particular, takes place in dsDNA, not in R-loops. Although HIV integration can occur in vitro on naked dsDNA, there is good evidence that, in an infected cell, integration occurs on DNA that is associated with nucleosomes. This review will be presented in two parts. First, a summary will be provided giving some of the reasons to be confident that integration occurs on dsDNA on nucleosomes. The second part will point out some of the obvious problems with the experimental data that are presented in the manuscript.

      We appreciate your comments. We have carefully addressed the concerns expressed as follows (your comments are in italics):  

      (2.1) 2017 Dos Passos Science paper describes the structure of the HIV intasome. The structure makes it clear that the target for integration is dsDNA, not an R-loop, and there are very good reasons to think that structure is physiologically relevant. For example, there is data from the Cherepanov, Engelman, and Lyumkis labs to show that the HIV intasome is quite similar in its overall structure and organization to the structures of the intasomes of other retroviruses. Importantly, these structures explain the way integration creates a small duplication of the host sequences at the integration site. How do the authors propose that an R-loop can replace the dsDNA that was seen in these intasome structures?

      We do appreciate the current understanding of the HIV-1 integration site selection mechanism and the known structure of the dsDNA-bound intasome. Our study proposes an R-loop as another contributor to HIV-1 integration site selection. Recent studies providing new perspectives on HIV-1 integration site targeting motivated our current work. For instance, Ajoge et al., 2022 (7) indicated that a guanine-quadruplex (G4) structure formed in the non-template DNA strand of the R-loop influences HIV-1 integration site targeting. Additionally, I. K. Jozwik et al., 2022 (8) showed retroviral integrase protein structure bound to B-to-A transition in target DNA. R-loop structures are a prevalent class of alternative non-B DNA structures (9). We acknowledge the current understanding of HIV-1 integration site selection and explore how R-loop interactions may contribute to this knowledge in the Discussion section of our manuscript. 

      Primarily based on our current data, we believe that R-loop structures are bound by HIV-1 integrase proteins and lead to HIV-1 viral genome integration into the vicinity regions of the host genomic R-loops, but we do not claim that R-loops completely replace dsDNA as the target for HIV-1 integration. An R-loop can be multi-kilobase in size and the R-loop peak length widely varies depending on the immunoprecipitation and library construction methods (1, 2), therefore, we could not validate whether the center of triple-stranded R-loops is the extraction site of HIV-1 integration where the strand transfer reaction by integrase occurs. Therefore, we replaced phrases such as, “HIV-1 targets R-loops for integration,” which may overstate our finding on the role of R-loop in HIV-1 integration site selection, with phrases, such as, “HIV-1 favors vicinity regions of R-loop for the viral genome integration,” in the revised manuscript. We apologize for the inconvenience caused by the unclear and non-specific details of our findings. Nevertheless, we believe that we validated R-loop-mediated HIV-1 integration in R-loop-forming regions using our pgR-poor and pgR-rich cell line models. We quantified site-specific integration events in the R-loop regions, and found that a greater number of integration events occurred in designated regions of the pgR-rich cellular genome upon R-loop induction by DOX treatment, but not in pgR-poor cells (Fig. 3E–G of the revised manuscript). 

      dsDNA may have been the sole target of the intasome demonstrated in vitro possibly because dsDNA has only been considered as a substrate for in vitro intasome assembly. We hope that our work will initiate and advance future investigations on target-bound intasome structures by considering R-loops as potential new targets for integrated proteins and intasomes.  

      (2.2) As noted above, concerted (two-ended) integration can occur in vitro on a naked dsDNA substrate. However, there is compelling evidence that, in cells, integration preferentially occurs on nucleosomes. Nucleosomes are not found in R loops. In an infected cell, the viral RNA genome of HIV is converted into DNA within the capsid/core which transits the nuclear pore before reverse transcription has been completed. Integration requires the uncoating of the capsid/core, which is linked to the completion of viral DNA synthesis in the nucleus. Two host factors are known to strongly influence integration site selection, CPSF6 and LEDGF. CPSF6 is involved in helping the capsid/core transit the nuclear pore and associate with nuclear speckles. LEDGF is involved in helping the preintegration complex (PIC) find an integration site after it has been released from the capsid/core, most commonly in the bodies of highly expressed genes. In the absence of an interaction of CPSF6 with the core, integration occurs primarily in the lamin-associated domains (LADs). Genes in LADs are usually not expressed or are expressed at low levels. Depending on the cell type, integration in the absence of CPSF6 can be less efficient than normal integration, but that could well be due to a lack of LEDGF (which is associated with expressed genes) in the LADs. In the absence of an interaction of IN with LEDGF (and in cells with low levels of HRP2) integration is less efficient and the obvious preference for integration in highly expressed genes is reduced. Importantly, LEDGF is known to bind histone marks, and will therefore be preferentially associated with nucleosomes, not R-loops. LEDGF fusions, in which the chromatin binding portion of the protein is replaced, can be used to redirect where HIV integrates, and that technique has been used to map the locations of proteins on chromatin. Importantly, LEDGF fusions in which the chromatin binding component of LEDGF is replaced with a module that recognizes specific histone marks direct integration to those marks, confirming integration occurs efficiently on nucleosomes in cells. It is worth noting that it is possible to redirect integration to portions of the host genome that are poorly expressed, which, when taken with the data on integration into LADs (integration in the absence of a CPSF6 interaction) shows that there are circumstances in which there is reasonably efficient integration of HIV DNA in portions of the genome in which there are few if any R-loops.

      Although R-loops may not wrap around nucleosomes, long and stable R-loops likely cover stretches of DNA corresponding to multiple nucleosomes (10). For example, R-loops are associated with high levels of histone marks, such as H3K36me3, which LEDGF recognizes (2, 11). R-loops dynamically regulate the chromatin architecture. Possibly by altering nucleosome occupancy, positioning, or turnover, R-loop structures relieve superhelical stress and are often associated with open chromatin marks and active enhancers (2, 10). These features are also distributed over HIV-1 integration sites (12). In the Discussion section of the revised manuscript, we explored the R-loop molding mechanisms in the host genomic environment for HIV-1 integration site selection and its potential collaborative role with LEDGF/p75 and CPSF6 governing HIV-1 integration site selection. 

      By carefully revising our original manuscript, with respect to the reviewer's comment, we recognized the need to tone down our statements. We found that the title, abstract, and discussion of our original manuscript includes phrases, such as, “HIV-1 targets Rloops for integration,” which may overstate our finding on the role of R-loop in HIV-1 integration site selection. We replaced these phrases. For example, we used phrases, such as “HIV-1 favors vicinity regions of R-loop for the viral genome integration,” in the revised manuscript. We apologize for the inconvenience caused by the unclear and non-specific details of our findings.

      (2.3) Given that HIV DNA is known to preferentially integrate into expressed genes and that R-loops must necessarily involve expressed RNA, it is not surprising that there is a correlation between HIV integration and regions of the genome to which R loops have been mapped. However, it is important to remember that correlation does not necessarily imply causation.

      We understand the reviewer's concern regarding the possibility of a coincidental correlation between the R-loop regions and HIV-1 integration sites, particularly when the interpretation of this correlation is primarily based on a global analysis. 

      Therefore, we designed pgR-poor and pgR-rich cell lines, which we believe are suitable models for distinguishing between integration events driven by transcription and the presence of R-loops. Although the two cell lines showed comparable levels of transcription at the designated region upon DOX treatment via TRE promoter activation (Fig. 3B of the revised manuscript), only pgR-rich cells formed R-loops at the designated regions (Fig. 3C of the revised manuscript). When infected with HIV1, pgR-rich cells, but not pgR-poor cells, showed higher infectivity after DOX treatment (Fig. 3D of the revised manuscript). Moreover, we quantified site-specific integration events in the R-loop regions, and found that a greater number of integration events occurred in designated regions of the pgR-rich cellular genome upon R-loop induction by DOX treatment, but not in pgR-poor cells (Fig. 3E of the revised manuscript). Therefore, we concluded that transcriptional activation without an R-loop (in pgR-poor cells) may not be sufficient to drive HIV-1 integration. We believe that our work provides strong evidence for a causative relationship between R-loop formation/Rloop sites and HIV-1 integration. We hope that our explanation addresses your concerns. Thank you.

      If we consider some of the problems in the experiments that are described in the manuscript:

      (2.4) In an infected individual, cells are almost always infected by a single virion and the infecting virion is not accompanied by large numbers of damaged or defective virions. This is a key consideration: the claim that infection by HIV affects R-loop formation in cells was done with a VSVg vector in experiments in which there appears to have been about 6000 virions per cell. Although most of the virions prepared in vitro are defective in some way, that does not mean that a large fraction of the defective virions cannot fuse with cells. In normal in vivo infections, HIV has evolved in ways that avoid signaling infected the cell of its presence. To cite an example, carrying out reverse transcription in the capsid/core prevents the host cell from detecting (free) viral DNA in the cytoplasm. The fact that the large effect on R-loop formation which the authors report still occurs in infections done in the absence of reverse transcription strengthens the probability that the effects are due to the massive amounts of virions present, and perhaps to the presence of VSVg, which is quite toxic. To have physiological relevance, the infections would need to be carried out with virions that contain HIV even under circumstances in which there is at most one virion per cell.

      Our virus production and in vitro and ex vivo HIV-1 infection experimental conditions, designed for infecting cell types, such as HeLa cells and primary CD4+ T cells with VSV-G pseudotyped HIV, were based on a comprehensive review of numerous references. At the very beginning of this study, we tested HIV-1-specific host genomic R-loop induction using empty virion particles (virus-like particles, VLP) or other types of viruses (non-retrovirus, SeV; retroviruses, FMLV and FIV), all produced with a VSV G protein donor. We could not include a control omitting the VSV G protein or using natural HIV-1 envelope protein to prevent viral spread in culture. We observed that despite all types of virus stocks being prepared using VSV-G, only cells infected with HIV-1 viruses showed R-loop signal enrichment (Author response image 3). Therefore, we omitted the control for the VSV G protein in subsequent analyses, such as DRIPcseq. We have also revised our manuscript to provide a clearer description of the experimental conditions. In particular, we now clearly stated that we used VSV-G pseudotyped HIV-1 in this study, throughout the abstract, results, and discussion sections of the revised manuscript. Thank you.

      Author response image 3.

      (A) Dot blot analysis of the R-loop in gDNA extracts from HIV-1 infected U2OS cells with MOI of 0.6 harvested at 6 hpi. The gDNA extracts were incubated with or without RNase H in vitro before membrane loading (anti-S9.6 signal). (B) Dot blot analysis of the R-loop in gDNA extracts from HeLa cells infected with 0.3 MOI of indicated viruses. The infected cells were harvested at 6 hpi. The gDNA extracts were incubated with or without RNase H in vitro before membrane loading (anti-S9.6 signal).

      HIV-1 co-infection may also be expected in cell-free HIV-1 infections. However, it was previously suggested that the average number of infection events varies within 1.02 to 1.65 based on a mathematical model that estimates the frequency of multiple infections with the same virus (Figure 4c of Ito et al., Sci. Rep, 2017; 6559) (13). 

      (2.5) Using the Sso7d version of HIV IN in the in vitro binding assays raises some questions, but that is not the real question/problem. The real problem is that the important question is not what/how HIV IN protein binds to, but where/how an intasome binds. An intasome is formed from a combination of IN bound to the ends of viral DNA. In the absence of viral DNA ends, IN does not have the same structure/organization as it has in an intasome. Moreover, HIV IN (even Sso7d, which was modified to improve its behavior) is notoriously sticky and hard to work with. If viral DNA had been included in the experiment, intasomes would need to be prepared and purified for a proper binding experiment. To make matters worse, there are multiple forms of multimeric HIV IN and it is not clear how many HIV INs are present in the PICs that actually carry out integration in an infected cell.

      As the reviewer has noted, HIV IN, even with Sso7d tagging, is difficult. We attempted the purification of viral DNA (vDNA)-bound PICs using either Sso7d-tagged HIV-1 integrase proteins or non-tagged HIV-1 integrase proteins (F185K/C280S), procured from the NIH HIV reagent program (HRP-20203), following the method described by Passos et al., Science, 2017; 355 (89-92) (3). Despite multiple attempts, we were unable to purify the vDNA-bound IN protein complexes for in vitro assays. However, through multiple biochemical experiments, we believe that we have successfully demonstrated the interaction between cellular R-loops and HIV-1 integrase proteins both in cells and in vitro (Fig. 5A–F of the revised manuscript). We also observed a close association between integrase proteins and host cellular Rloops in HIV-1-infected cells, using a fluorescent recombinant virus (HIV-IN-EGFP) with intact IN-EGFP PICs (Fig. 5G of the revised manuscript). 

      (2.6) As an extension of comment 2, the proper association of an HIV intasome/PIC with the host genome requires LEDGF and the appropriate nucleic acid targets need to be chromatinized.

      The interaction between cellular R-loops and HIV-1 integrase proteins in HeLa cells endogenously expressing LEDGF/p75 was examined using reciprocal immunoprecipitation assays in Fig. 5C–F, S6B, and S6D Fig. of the revised manuscript. In addition, as discussed in more detail in our response to comment [28], we observed a close association between host cellular R-loops and HIV-1 integrase proteins by PLA assay, in HIV-1-infected HeLa cells. 

      (2.7) Expressing any form of IN, by itself, in cells to look for what IN associates with is not a valid experiment. A major factor that helps to determine both where integration takes place and the sites chosen for integration is the transport of the viral DNA and IN into the nucleus in the capsid core. However, even if we ignore that important part of the problem, the IN that the authors expressed in HeLa cells won't be bound to the viral DNA ends (see comment 2), even if the fusion protein would be able to form an intasome. As such, the IN that is expressed free in cells will not form a proper intasome/PIC and cannot be expected to bind where/how an intasome/PIC would bind.

      As discussed in more detail in our response to comment [2-8], we believe that our PLA experiment using the pVpr-IN-EGFP virus, which has previously been examined for virion integrity, as well as the IN-EGFP PICs (14), demonstrated a close association between host cellular R-loops and HIV-1 integrase proteins in HIV-1-infected cells. 

      (2.8) As in comment 1, for the PLA experiments presented in Figure 5 to work, the number of virions used per cell (which differs from the MOI measured by the number of cells that express a viral marker) must have a high, which is likely to have affected the cells and the results of the experiment. However, there is the additional question of whether the IN-GFP fusion is functional. The fact that the functional intasome is a complex multimer suggests that this could be a problem. There is an additional problem, even if IN-GFP is fully functional. During a normal infection, the capsid core will have delivered copies of IN (and, in the experiments reported here, the IN-GFP fusion) into the nucleus that is not part of the intasome. These "free" copies of IN (here IN-GFP) are not likely to go to the same sites as an intasome, making this experiment problematic (comment 4).

      The HIV-IN-EGFP virus stock was produced by polyethylenimine-mediated transfection of HEK293T cells with 6 µg of pVpr-IN-EGFP, 6 µg of HIV-1 NL4-3 noninfectious molecular clone (pD64E; NIH AIDS Reagent Program 10180), and 1 µg of pVSV-G as previously described in (14), and described in the Materials and Methods section of our manuscript. The pVpr-IN-EGFP vector used to produce HIV-1-IN-EGFP virus stock was provided by Anna Cereseto group (Albanese et al., PLOS ONE, 2008; 6(6); Ref 34 of the revised manuscript). It was previously reported that the HIV-1INEGFP virions produced by IN-EGFP trans-incorporation through Vpr are intact and infective viral particles (Figure 1 of Albanese et al., PLOS ONE, 2008; 6(6)). Therefore, we believe that the HIV-IN-EGFP used in our PLA experiments was functional. 

      Additionally, Albanese et al. showed that the EGFP signal of HIV-IN-EGFP virions colocalizes with the viral protein matrix (p17MA) and capsid (P24CA) as well as with the newly synthesized cDNA produced by reverse transcriptase by labeling and visualizing the synthesized cDNA (14). In addition, the fluorescent recombinant virus (HIV-INEGFP) was structurally intact at the nuclear level (Figure 6 of Albanese et al., PLOS ONE, 2008; 6(6)). Therefore, we believe that our PLA experimental result is not likely misled as the reviewer concerns due to the integrity of the HIV-IN-EGFP virion as well as IN-EGFP PICs.

      Furthermore, the in vitro HIV-1 infection setting of our PLA experiments was carefully determined based on multiple studies that performed image-based assays on HIV-1infected cells. For instance, Albanese et al. infected 4 × 104 cells with viral loads equivalent to 1.5 or 3 µg of HIV-1 p24 for their immunofluorescence analysis, in their previous report (14). We titrated the fluorescent HIV-1 virus stocks by examining both the multiplicity of infection (MOI) and quantifying the HIV-1 p24 antigen content (Author response image 4). In our calculation, we infected 5 × 104 HeLa cells with viral loads equivalent to 1.3 ug of HIV-1 p24, which is indicated as 2 MOI in Fig. 5G of our manuscript, for our PLA experiments. 

      Image-Based Assays often require increased and enhanced signal for statistical robustness. For example, Achuthan et al. infected cells with VSV-G-pseudotyped HIV1 at the approximate MOI of 350 for vDNA and PIC visualization (15). Therefore, we believe our experimental condition for PLA experiments, which we carefully designed based on previous study that are frequently referred, are reasonable. We really hope that our discussion sufficiently addressed the reviewer’s concern. 

      Author response image 4.

      Gating strategy used to determine HIV-1-infectivity in HeLa cells at 48 hpi. Cells were infected with a known p24 antigen content in the stock of the VSV-G-pseudotyped HIV-1-EGFP-virus. The percentages of GFP-positive cell population are indicated.

      (2.9) In the Introduction, the authors state that the site of integration affects the probability that the resulting provirus will be expressed. Although this idea is widely believed in the field, the actual data supporting it are, at best, weak. See, for example, the data from the Bushman lab showing that the distribution of integration sites is the same in cells in which the integrated proviruses are, and are not, expressed. However, given what the authors claim in the introduction, they should be more careful in interpreting enzyme expression levels (luciferase) as a measure of integration efficiency in experiments in which they claim proviruses are integrated in different places.

      We thank the reviewer for the constructive comment. We have changed the statement in Lines 41–42 in the Introduction section of our original manuscript to “The chromosomal landscape of HIV-1 integration influences proviral gene expression, persistence of integrated proviruses, and prognosis of antiretroviral therapy.” (Lines 39-41 of the revised manuscript). We believe that this change can tone-down the relevance between the site of integration and the provirus expression level.

      The piggyBac transposase randomly insert the “cargo (transposon)” into TTAA chromosomal sites of the target genome, generating efficient insertions at different genomic loci (16, 17). We believe that this random insertion of the pgR-poor/rich vector mediated by the piggyBac system allows us not to mislead the R-loop-mediated HIV1 integration site because of the genome locus bias of the vector insertion. Therefore, Figure 3 in our manuscript does not claim any relevance between the site of integration and the resulting provirus expression levels. Instead, as noted in Line 214 of the revised manuscript, using the luciferase reporter HIV-1 virus, we attempted to examine HIV-1 infection in cells with an "extra number of R-loops” in the host cellular genome. We observed that pgR-rich cells showed higher luciferase activity upon DOX treatment than pgR-poor cells (Fig. 3D of the revised manuscript). We believe that this is because a greater number of HIV-1 integration events may occur in pgR-rich cells, where DOX-inducible de novo R-loop regions are introduced. This has been further examined in Fig. 3E–G of the revised manuscript. We hope this explanation clarifies the Figure 3. Thank you. 

      (2.10) Using restriction enzymes to create an integration site library introduces biases that derive from the uneven distribution of the recognition sites for the restriction enzymes.

      As described in the Materials and Methods section, we adopted a sequencing library construction method using a previously established protocol (18, 19). Although we recognize the advantages of DNA fragmentation by sonication, in in vitro or ex vivo HIV-1 infection settings, where the multiplicity of infection is carefully determined based on multiple references, more copies of integrated viral sequences are expected compared to that in samples from infected patients (18). Therefore, in these settings, restriction enzyme-based DNA fragmentation and ligation-mediated PCR sequencing are well-established methods that provide significant data sources for HIV-1 integration site sequencing (15, 20-22). Furthermore, our data showing the proportion of integration sites over R-loop regions (Fig. 4B of the revised manuscript) are presented alongside the respective random controls (i.e., proportion of integration sites within the 30-kb windows centered on randomized DRIPc-seq peaks, gray dotted lines; control comparisons between randomized integration sites with DRIPc-seq peaks, black dotted lines; and randomized integration sites with randomized DRIPcseq peaks, gray solid lines), which do not show such a correlation between the HIV-1 integration sites and nearby areas of the R-loop regions. Therefore, we believe that our results from the integration site sequencing data analysis are unlikely to be biased. 

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      In this manuscript, Park and colleagues describe a series of experiments that investigate the role of R-loops in HIV-1 genome integration. The authors show that during HIV-1 infection, R-loops levels on the host genome accumulate. Using a synthetic R-loop prone gene construct, they show that HIV-1 integration sites target sites with high R-loop levels. They further show that integration sites on the endogenous host genome are correlated with sites prone to R-loops. Using biochemical approaches, as well as in vivo co-IP and proximity ligation experiments, the authors show that HIV-1 integrase physically interacts with R-loop structures.

      My primary concern with the paper is with the interpretations the authors make about their genome-wide analyses. I think that including some additional analyses of the genome-wide data, as well as some textual changes can help make these interpretations more congruent with what the data demonstrate. Here are a few specific comments and questions:

      We are grateful for the time and effort we spent on our behalf and the reviewer’s appreciation for the novelty of our work, in particular, R-loop induction by HIV-1 infection and the correlation between host R-loops and the genomic site of HIV-1 integration. In the following sections, we provide our responses to your comments and suggestions. Your comments are in italics. We have carefully addressed the following issues.

      (3.1) I think Figure 1 makes a good case for the conclusion that R-loops are more easily detected HIV-1 infected cells by multiple approaches (all using the S9.6 antibody). The authors show that their signals are RNase H sensitive, which is a critical control. For the DRIPc-Seq, I think including an analysis of biological replicates would greatly strengthen the manuscript. The authors state in the methods that the DRIPc pulldown experiments were done in biological replicates for each condition. Are the increases in DRIPc peaks similar across biological replicates? Are genomic locations of HIV-1-dependent peaks similar across biological replicates? Measuring and reporting the biological variation between replicate experiments is crucial for making conclusions about increases in R-loop peak frequency. This is partially alleviated by the locus-specific data in Figure S3A. However, a better understanding of how the genome-wide data varies across biological replicates will greatly enhance the quality of Figure 1.

      DRIPc-seq experiments were conducted with two biological replicates. To define consensus DRIPc-seq peaks using these two replicates, we used two methods applicable to ChIP-seq analysis: the irreproducible discovery rate (IDR) method and sequencing data pooling. We found that the sequencing data pooling method yielded significantly more DRIPc-seq peaks than consensus peak identification through IDR, and we decided to utilize R-loop peaks from pooled sequencing data for our downstream analyses, as described in the figure legends and Materials and Methods of the revised manuscript. 

      As noted by the reviewer, it is important to verify whether the increasing trend in the number of R-loop peaks and genomic locations of HIV-1 dependent R-loops were consistently observed across the two biological replicates. Therefore, we independently performed R-loop calling on each replicate of the sequencing data of primary CD4+ T cells from two individual donors to verify that the increase in R-loop numbers was consistent (Author response image 5). Additionally, the overlap of the R-loop peaks between the two replicates was statistically significant across the genome (Author response table 1). Thank you.

      Author response image 5.

      Bar graph indicating DRIPc-seq peak counts for HIV-1-infected primary CD4+ T cells harvested at the indicated hours post infection (hpi). Pre-immunoprecipitated samples were untreated (−) or treated (+) with RNase H, as indicated. Each dot corresponds to an individual data set from two biologically independent experiments.

      Author response table 1.

      DRIPc-seq peak length and Chi-square p-value in CD4+ T cells from individual donor 1 and 2 

      (3.2) I think that the conclusion that R-loops "accumulate" in infected cells is acceptable, given the data presented. However, in line 134 the authors state that "HIV1 infection induced host genomic R-loop formation". I suggest being very specific about the observation. Accumulation can happen by (a) inducing a higher frequency of the occurrence of individual R-loops and/or (b) stabilizing existing R-loops. I'm not convinced the authors present enough evidence to claim one over the other. It is altogether possible that HIV-1 infection stabilizes R-loops such that they are more persistent (perhaps by interactions with integrase?), and therefore more easily detected. I think rephrasing the conclusions to include this possibility would alleviate my concerns.

      We thank the reviewer for the considerable discussion on our manuscript. We have now changed Line 134 to, “HIV-1 infection induces host genomic R-loop enrichment” (Lines 132-133 of the revised manuscript), and added a new conclusion sentence implicating the possible explanation for the R-loop signal enrichment upon HIV-1 infection (Lines 133–135 of the revised manuscript), according to the reviewer's suggestion.    

      (3.3) A technical problem with using the S9.6 antibody for the detection of R-loops via microscopy is that it cross-reacts with double-stranded RNA. This has been addressed by the work of Chedin and colleagues (as well as others). It is absolutely essential to treat these samples with an RNA:RNA hybrid-specific RNase, which the authors did not include, as far as their methods section states. Therefore, it is difficult to interpret all of the immunofluorescence experiments that depend on S9.6 binding.

      We understand the reviewer's concern regarding the cross-reactivity of the S9.6 antibody with more abundant dsRNA, particularly in imaging applications. We carefully designed the experimental and analytical methods for R-loop detection using microscopy. For example, we pre-extracted the cytoplasmic fraction before staining with the S9.6 antibody and quantified the R-loop signal by subtracting the nucleolar signal. Both of these steps were taken to eliminate the possibility of misdetecting Rloops via microscopy because of the prominent cytoplasmic and nucleolar S9.6 signals, which primarily originate from ribosomal RNA. In addition, we included R-loop negative control samples in our microscopy analysis that were subjected to intensive RNase H treatment (60U/mL RNase H for 36 h) and observed a significant reduction in the S9.6 signal (Figure 1E of the revised manuscript). RNase H-treated samples served as essential and widely accepted negative controls for R-loop detection. 

      We would like to point out that recent studies have reported strong intrinsic specificity of S9.6 anybody for DNA:RNA hybrid duplex over dsDNA and dsRNA, along with the structural elucidations of S9.6 antibody recognition of hybrids (23, 24). Therefore, our interpretation of host cellular R-loop enrichment after HIV-1 infection using S9.6 antibodies in multiple biochemical approaches is well supported. Nevertheless, we agree with the reviewer's opinion that additional negative controls for the detection of R-loops via microscopy, such as RNase T1-and RNase III-treated samples, could improve the robustness and accuracy of R-loop imaging data (25).  

      (3.4) Given that there is no clear correlation between expression levels and R-loop peak detection, combined with the data that show increased detection of R-loop frequency in non-genic regions, I think it will be important to show that the R-loop forming regions are indeed transcribed above background levels. This will help alleviate possible concerns that there are technical errors in R-loop peak detection.

      Figures S5D and S5E in the revised manuscript show the relative gene expression levels of the R-loop-forming positive regions (P1-3) and the referenced Rloop-positive loci (RPL13A and CALM3). The gene expression levels of these R-loopforming regions were significantly higher than those of the ECFP or mAIRN genes without DOX treatment, which can be considered background levels of transcription in cells. Thank you. 

      (3.5) In Figures 4C and D the hashed lines are not defined. It is also interesting that the integration sites do not line up with R-loop peaks. This does not necessarily directly refute the conclusions (especially given the scale of the genomic region displayed), but should be addressed in the manuscript. Additionally, it would greatly improve Figure 4 to have some idea about the biological variation across replicates of the data presented 4A.

      We thank the reviewer for the considerable comment on our study. First of all, we added an annotation for the dashed lines in the figure legends of Figures 4C and 4D in the revised manuscript.

      We agree with the reviewer's interpretation of the relationship between the integration sites and R-loop peaks. Primarily based on our current data, we believe R-loop structures are bound by HIV-1 integrase proteins and lead HIV-1 viral genome integration into the “vicinity” regions of the host genomic R-loops. We displayed a large-scale genomic region (30-kb windows) to present integration sites surrounding R-loop centers because an R-loop can be multi-kilobase in size (1, 2). Depending on the immunoprecipitation and library construction methods, the R-loop peaks varied in size, and the peak length showed a wide distribution (Figure 3B of Malig et al., 2020, Figure 1B of Sanz et al., 2016, and Figure 2A of the revised manuscript). Therefore, presenting integration site events within a wide window of R-loop peaks could be more informative and better reflect the current understanding of R-loop biology.

      R-loop formation recruits diverse chromatin-binding protein factors, such as H3K4me1, p300, CTCF, RAD21, and ZNF143 (Figure 6A and 6B of Sanz et al., 2016) (26), which allow R-loops to exhibit enhancer and insulator chromatin states, which can act as distal regulatory elements (26, 27). We have demonstrated physical interactions between host cellular R-loops and HIV-1 integrase proteins (Figure 5 of the revised manuscript), therefore, we believe that this ‘distal regulatory element-like feature’ of the R-loop can be a potential explanation for how R-loops drive integration over longrange genomic regions.

      According to your suggestion, we added this explanation to the relevant literature in the Discussion section of the revised manuscript.

      Author response image 6 which represents the biological variation across replicates of the data shown in Figure 4A. The integration site sequencing data for Jurkat cells were adopted from SRR12322252 (4), which consists of the integration site sequencing data of HIV-1-infected wild type Jurkat cells with one biological replicate. We hope that our explanations and discussion have successfully addressed your concerns. Thank you. 

      Author response image 6.

      Bar graphs showing the quantified number of HIV-1 integration sites per Mb pair in total regions of 30-kb windows centered on DRIPc-seq peaks from HIV-1 infected HeLa cells and primary CD4+ T cells (magenta) or non-R-loop region in the cellular genome (gray). Each dot corresponds to an individual data set from two biologically independent experiments.

      (3.6) The authors do not adequately describe the Integrase mutant that they use in their biochemical experiments in Figure 5A. Could this impact the activity of the protein in such a way that interferes with the interpretation of the experiment? The mutant is not used in subsequent experiments for Figure 5 and so even though the data are consistent with each other (and the conclusion that Integrase interacts with R-loops) a more thorough explanation of why that mutant was used and how it impacts the biochemical activity of the protein will help the interpretation of the data presented in Figure 5.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestions. In our EMSA analysis, we purified and used Sso7d-tagged HIV-1 integrase proteins with an active-site amino acid substitution, E152Q. First, we used the Sso7d-tagged HIV-1 integrase protein, as it has been suggested in previous studies that the fusion of small domains, such as Sso7d (DNA binding domain) can significantly improve the solubility of HIV integrase proteins without affecting their ability to assemble with substrate nucleic acids and their enzymatic activity (Figure 1B of Li et al., PLOS ONE, 2014;9 (8) (28, 29). We used an integrase protein with an active site amino acid substitution, E152Q, in our mobility shift assay, because the primary goal of this experiment was to examine the ability of the protein to bind or form a complex with different nucleic acid substrates. We thought that abolishing the enzymatic activity of the integrase protein, such as 3'-processing that cleaves DNA substrates, would be more appropriate for our experimental objective. This Sso7d tagged- HIV-1 integrase with the E152Q mutation has also been used to elucidate the structural model of the integrase complex with a nucleic acid substrate by cryo-EM (3) and has been shown to not disturb substrate binding.   Based on the reviewer’s comments, we have added a description of the E152Q mutant integrase protein in Lines 268–270 of the revised manuscript. Thank you.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The paper suffers from many grammatical errors, which sometimes interfere with the interpretations of the experiments. In the view of this reviewer, the manuscript must be carefully revised prior to publication. For example, lines 247-248 "Intasomes consist of HIV-1 viral cDNA and HIV-1 coding protein, integrases." It is unclear from this sentence whether there are multiple integrases or multiple proteins that interact with the viral genome to facilitate integration. This makes the subsequent experiments in Figure 5 difficult to interpret. There are many other examples, too numerous to point out individually.

      We thoughtfully revised the original manuscript, making the best efforts to provide clearer details of our findings. We believe that we have made substantial changes to the manuscript, including Lines 247–248 of the original manuscript that the reviewer noted. Furthermore, the revised manuscript was edited by a professional editing service. Thank you.     (1) M. Malig, S. R. Hartono, J. M. Giafaglione, L. A. Sanz, F. Chedin, Ultra-deep Coverage Singlemolecule R-loop Footprinting Reveals Principles of R-loop Formation. J Mol Biol 432, 22712288 (2020).

      (2) L. A. Sanz et al., Prevalent, Dynamic, and Conserved R-Loop Structures Associate with Specific Epigenomic Signatures in Mammals. Mol Cell 63, 167-178 (2016).

      (3) D. O. Passos et al., Cryo-EM structures and atomic model of the HIV-1 strand transfer complex intasome. Science 355, 89-92 (2017).

      (4) W. Li et al., CPSF6-Dependent Targeting of Speckle-Associated Domains Distinguishes Primate from Nonprimate Lentiviral Integration. mBio 11,  (2020).

      (5) P. A. Ginno, Y. W. Lim, P. L. Lott, I. Korf, F. Chedin, GC skew at the 5' and 3' ends of human genes links R-loop formation to epigenetic regulation and transcription termination. Genome Res 23, 1590-1600 (2013).

      (6) S. Hamperl, M. J. Bocek, J. C. Saldivar, T. Swigut, K. A. Cimprich, Transcription-Replication Conflict Orientation Modulates R-Loop Levels and Activates Distinct DNA Damage Responses. Cell 170, 774-786 e719 (2017).

      (7) H. O. Ajoge et al., G-Quadruplex DNA and Other Non-Canonical B-Form DNA Motifs Influence Productive and Latent HIV-1 Integration and Reactivation Potential. Viruses 14,  (2022).

      (8) I. K. Jozwik et al., B-to-A transition in target DNA during retroviral integration. Nucleic Acids Res 50, 8898-8918 (2022).

      (9) F. Chedin, C. J. Benham, Emerging roles for R-loop structures in the management of topological stress. J Biol Chem 295, 4684-4695 (2020).

      (10) F. Chedin, Nascent Connections: R-Loops and Chromatin Patterning. Trends Genet 32, 828838 (2016).

      (11) P. B. Chen, H. V. Chen, D. Acharya, O. J. Rando, T. G. Fazzio, R loops regulate promoterproximal chromatin architecture and cellular differentiation. Nat Struct Mol Biol 22, 9991007 (2015).

      (12) A. R. Schroder et al., HIV-1 integration in the human genome favors active genes and local hotspots. Cell 110, 521-529 (2002).

      (13) Y. Ito et al., Number of infection events per cell during HIV-1 cell-free infection. Sci Rep 7, 6559 (2017).

      (14) A. Albanese, D. Arosio, M. Terreni, A. Cereseto, HIV-1 pre-integration complexes selectively target decondensed chromatin in the nuclear periphery. PLoS One 3, e2413 (2008).

      (15) V. Achuthan et al., Capsid-CPSF6 Interaction Licenses Nuclear HIV-1 Trafficking to Sites of Viral DNA Integration. Cell Host Microbe 24, 392-404 e398 (2018).

      (16) X. Li et al., piggyBac transposase tools for genome engineering. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 110, E2279-2287 (2013).

      (17) Y. Cao et al., Identification of piggyBac-mediated insertions in Plasmodium berghei by next generation sequencing. Malar J 12, 287 (2013).

      (18) E. Serrao, P. Cherepanov, A. N. Engelman, Amplification, Next-generation Sequencing, and Genomic DNA Mapping of Retroviral Integration Sites. J Vis Exp,  (2016).

      (19) K. A. Matreyek et al., Host and viral determinants for MxB restriction of HIV-1 infection. Retrovirology 11, 90 (2014).

      (20) G. A. Sowd et al., A critical role for alternative polyadenylation factor CPSF6 in targeting HIV-1 integration to transcriptionally active chromatin. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 113, E10541063 (2016).

      (21) B. Lucic et al., Spatially clustered loci with multiple enhancers are frequent targets of HIV-1 integration. Nat Commun 10, 4059 (2019).

      (22) P. K. Singh, G. J. Bedwell, A. N. Engelman, Spatial and Genomic Correlates of HIV-1 Integration Site Targeting. Cells 11,  (2022).

      (23) C. Bou-Nader, A. Bothra, D. N. Garboczi, S. H. Leppla, J. Zhang, Structural basis of R-loop recognition by the S9.6 monoclonal antibody. Nat Commun 13, 1641 (2022).

      (24) Q. Li et al., Cryo-EM structure of R-loop monoclonal antibody S9.6 in recognizing RNA:DNA hybrids. J Genet Genomics 49, 677-680 (2022).

      (25) J. A. Smolka, L. A. Sanz, S. R. Hartono, F. Chedin, Recognition of RNA by the S9.6 antibody creates pervasive artifacts when imaging RNA:DNA hybrids. J Cell Biol 220,  (2021).

      (26) L. A. Sanz, F. Chedin, High-resolution, strand-specific R-loop mapping via S9.6-based DNARNA immunoprecipitation and high-throughput sequencing. Nat Protoc 14, 1734-1755 (2019).

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      (28) M. Li, K. A. Jurado, S. Lin, A. Engelman, R. Craigie, Engineered hyperactive integrase for concerted HIV-1 DNA integration. PLoS One 9, e105078 (2014).

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    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      General remarks for the Editor and the Reviewers

      We would like to thank the Editor and the Reviewers for their feedback. Below we address their comments and present our point-by-point responses as well as the related changes in the manuscript.

      In addition to these changes, in a few cases we have found it necessary to move some texts and provide some additional explanations within the manuscript. We emphasize that these amendments have been made for only technical reasons, and do not alter the results and conclusions of the paper, but may help to render the text more coherent and understandable to readers with little knowledge of the subject.

      These minor corrections are:

      • We extended the Introduction section by a sentence (lines 40-42) that is intended to fit the proposed template directed, non-enzymatic replication mechanism into a more general prebiotic evolutionary context, thus emphasizing its biological relevance. This sentence includes an additional reference (Rosenberger et al., 2021).

      • Two very methodologically oriented and repeated descriptions of random sequence generation have been moved to the Methods section (lines 178-185) from the Results section (lines 336-339 and lines 351-354).

      • We complemented the Data availability statement with licensing information (lines 684-685).

      • Further minor changes (also indicated by red texts) have been implemented to remedy logical and grammatical glitches.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Szathmary and colleagues explore the parabolic growth regime of replicator evolution. Parabolic growth occurs when nucleic acid strain separation is the rate-limiting step of the replication process which would have been the case for non-enzymatic replication of short oligonucleotide that could precede the emergence of ribozyme polymerases and helicases. The key result is that parabolic replication is conducive to the maintenance of genetic diversity, that is, the coexistence of numerous master sequences (the Gause principle does not apply). Another important finding is that there is no error threshold for parabolic replication except for the extreme case of zero fidelity.

      Strengths:

      I find both the analytic and the numerical results to be quite convincing and well-described. The results of this work are potentially important because they reveal aspects of a realistic evolutionary scenario for the origin of replicators.

      Weaknesses:

      There are no obvious technical weaknesses. It can be argued that the results represent an incremental advance because many aspects of parabolic replication have been explored previously (the relevant publications are properly cited). Obviously, the work is purely theoretical, experimental study of parabolic replication is due. In the opinion of this reviewer, though, these are understandable limitations that do not actually detract from the value of this work.

      We are grateful that this Reviewer appreciates our work. We completely agree that the ultimate validation must come from experiments. It is important to stress that in this field theory often preceded experimental work by decades, and the former often guided the latter. We hope that for the topic of the present paper experiments will follow considerably faster.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      A dominant hypothesis concerning the origin of life is that, before the appearance of the first enzymes, RNA replicated non-enzymatically by templating. However, this replication was probably not very efficient, due to the propensity of single strands to bind to each other, thus inhibiting template replication. This phenomenon, known as product inhibition, has been shown to lead to parabolic growth instead of exponential growth. Previous works have shown that this situation limits competition between alternative replicators and therefore promotes RNA population diversity. The present work examines this scenario in a model of RNA replication, taking into account finite population size, mutations, and differences in GC content. The main results are (1) confirmation that parabolic growth promotes diversity, but that when the population size is small enough, sequences least efficient at replicating may nevertheless go extinct; (2) the observation that fitness is not only controlled by the replicability of sequences, but also by their GC content; (3) the observation that parabolic growth attenuates the impact of mutations and, in particular, that the error threshold to which exponentially growing sequences are subject can be exceeded, enabling sequence identity to be maintained at higher mutation rates.

      Strengths:

      The analyses are sound and the observations are intriguing. Indeed, it has been noted previously that parabolic growth promotes coexistence, its role in mitigating the error threshold catastrophe - which is often presented as a major obstacle to our understanding of the origin of life - had not been examined before.

      Weaknesses:

      Although all the conclusions are interesting, most are not very surprising for people familiar with the literature. As the authors point out, parabolic growth is well known to promote diversity (SzathmaryGladkih 89) and it has also been noted previously that a form of Darwinian selection can be found at small population sizes (Davis 2000).

      Given that under parabolic growth, no sequence is ever excluded for infinite populations, it is also not surprising to find that mutations have a less dramatic exclusionary impact.

      In the two articles cited (Szathmary-Gladkih 1989 and Davis 2000) the subexponentiality of the system was implemented in a mechanistic way, by introducing the exponent 0 < 𝑝 < 1. Although the behaviour of these models is more or less consistent with experimental findings (von Kiedrowski, 1986; Zielinski and Orgel, 1987), the divergence of per capita growth rates (𝑥̇/𝑥) at very low concentrations–which guarantees the ability to maintain unlimited diversity in the case of infinite population sizes–makes this formal approach partly unrealistic.

      To avoid the possible artefacts of this mechanistic approach, and as there are no previous studies analysing the diversity maintaining ability of finite populations of parabolic replicators in an individual-based model context, we implemented a simplified template replication mechanism leading to parabolic growth and analysed the dynamics in an individual-based stochastic model context. The key point of our investigation is that considerable diversity can be maintained in the system even when the population size is quite small.

      Regarding the Reviewer’s comment on selection: Darwinian selection can only occur in a simple subexponential dynamics if the ratio of replicabilities diverges, cf. Eq. (8) and the preceding paragraph in Davis, 2000.

      Our results also show (Figs. 4B and 4C) that high mutation rates and the error threshold problem can still be considered as a major limiting factor for parabolically replicating systems in terms of their diversity-maintaining ability. In the light of the above, potential mechanisms to relax the error threshold in such systems, one of which is demonstrated in the present study, seem to be important steps to account for the sequence diversification and increase in molecular complexity during the early evolution of RNA replicators.

      A general weakness is the presentation of models and parameters, whose choices often appear arbitrary. Modeling choices that would deserve to be further discussed include the association of the monomers with the strands and the ensuing polymerization, which are combined into a single association/polymerization reaction (see also below), or the choice to restrict to oligomers of length L = 10. Other models, similar to the one employed here, have been proposed that do not make these assumptions, e.g. Rosenberger et al. Self-Assembly of Informational Polymers by Templated Ligation, PRX 2021. To understand how such assumptions affect the results, it would be helpful to present the model from the perspective of existing models.

      The assumption of one-step polymerization reactions that we used here is a common technique for modelling template replication of sequence-represented replicators [see, e.g., Fontana and Schuster, 1998 (10.1126/science.280.5368.1451), Könnyű et al., 2008 (10.1186/1471-2148-8267), Vig-Milkovics et al, 2019 (10.1016/j.jtbi.2018.11.020) or Szilágyi et al., 2020 (10.1371/journal.pgen.1009155)]. This is because assuming base-to-base polymerisation of the copy would lead to a very large number of different types of intermediates, which a Gillespietype stochastic simulation algorithm could not handle in reasonable computation times, even if the sequences were relatively short. For comparison, in our model, where polymerization is one-step, the characteristic time of a simulation for 𝐿 = 10, 𝑁 = 105 and 𝛿 = 0.01 was 552 hours.

      Note that in Rosenberg et al. (PRX 2021), in contrast to a pioneering work [Fernando et al, 2007 (10.1007/s00239-006-0218-4)], sequences of replicators are not represented, which makes this approach completely inapplicable to our case, in which sequence defines the fitness. In sum, we suggest that this valid criticism points to possible future work.

      The values of the (many) parameters, often very specific, also very often lack justifications. For example, why is the "predefined error factor" ε = 0.2 and not lower or higher? How would that affect the results?

      A general remark. For the more important parameters , several values were used to test the behaviour of the model (see Table 1), but due to the considerable number of parameters, it is impossible to examine all possible combinations. 𝑐+ = 1 fixes the timescale, 𝐿 is set to 10 to obtain reasonable running times (see above).

      𝜀 characterizes how replicability decreases as the number of mutations increases. In the manuscript we used the following default vector: 𝜀 = (0.05, 0.2, 1) in which the third element corresponds to the mutation-free sequence, so it must to be 1. The first element determines the baseline replicability (see Methods), which we preferred not to change because it would fundamentally alter the ratio of replication propensities to association and dissociation propensities (as the substantial amount of complementary sequences of the master sequences are of baseline replicability) and thus would alter the reaction kinetics to an extent that it is not comparable with the original results. Therefore, only the second element can be adjusted. Accordingly, we have analysed the behaviour of the model in the cases of a steeper and a more gradual loss of replicability using the following two vectors, respectively: 𝜀, = (0.05, 𝟎. 𝟎𝟓, 1) and 𝜀,, = (0.05, 𝟎. 𝟓, 1). The choice of 𝜀, is chemically more plausible, since for very short oligomers the loss of chemical activity and replicability as a function of the number of mutations can be very sharp. We performed a series of simulations with all possible combinations of 𝛿 = 0.001, 0.005, 0.1 and 𝑁 = 103, 104, 105 for 𝜀′ and 𝜀,,in the constant population and chemostat model context (36 different runs). For other parameters, we took the default values, see Table 1. These values also correspond to the parameters we used in Figures 2 and 6. The results show that the steeper loss of replicability (𝜀,) slightly increases the diversity maintaining ability of the system, whereas the more gradual loss of replicability (𝜀,,) moderately decreases the diversity-maintaining ability of the system, and that these shifts are more pronounced in the constant population size model (Author response image 1) than in the chemostat model (Author response image 2). Altogether, these results confirm that the qualitative outcome of the model is robust in a wide range of loss of replicability (𝜀 vector) values.

      Author response image 1.

      Replicator coexistence in the constant population model with different loss of replicability (𝜀 vector) values. Within a given combination of 𝛿 and 𝑁 parameter values, the upper panel corresponds to the steeper loss of replicability (𝜀!), the middle panel to the default 𝜀 vector (Figure 2A), and the bottom panel to the more gradual loss of replicability vector (𝜀!!). Within each 𝛿; 𝑁 parameter combination, the same master sequence set was used with the three different 𝜀 vectors for comparability.

      Author response image 2.

      Replicator coexistence in the chemostat model with different loss of replicability (𝜀 vector) values. Within a given combination of 𝛿 and 𝑁 parameter values, the upper panel corresponds to the steeper loss of replicability (𝜀!), the middle panel to the default 𝜀 vector (Figure 6A), and the bottom panel to the more gradual loss of replicability vector (𝜀!!). Within each 𝛿; 𝑁 parameter combination, the same master sequence set was used with the three different 𝜀 vectors for comparability.

      Similarly, in equation (11), where does the factor 0.8 come from?

      This factor scales the decay rate of duplex sequences (𝑐"!") as the function of the binding energy

      (𝐸b). The value of 0.8 is an arbitrary choice, the value should be in the interval (0,1) and is only relevant in the chemostat model. It is expected to have a similar effect on the dynamics as the duplex decay factor parameter 𝑓, which we have investigated in a wide range of different values (cf. Table 1, Fig. 6), although 𝑓 is independent of the binding energy (𝐸/): increasing/decreasing the 0.8 factor is expected to decrease/increase the average total population size. We have investigated the diversity maintaining ability of the system at smaller (0.6) and larger (0.9) parameter values at different population sizes (𝑁 ≈ 103, 104 and 105) and at different replicability distances (δ = 0.001, 0.005 and 0.01) as shown in Fig. 6. We have found that the number of coexisting master types changes very little in response to changes in this factor. Only two shifts could be detected (underlined): factor 0.9 combined with 𝑁 ≈ 104 and 𝛿 = 0.001 caused the number of surviving master types to decrease by one, while factor 0.9 combined with 𝑁 ≈ 103 and 𝛿 = 0.01 caused the number of surviving master types to increase by one (Author response table 1). Factor 0.6 produced the same number of surviving types as the default (Author response table 1). In summary, the model shows marked robustness to changes in the values of this parameter.

      Author response table 1.

      Number of coexisting master types in the chemostat model with different binding energy dependent duplex decay rates. Within each 𝛿; 𝑁 parameter combination, the same master sequence set was used with the three different factor values: 0.6, 0.8 (the original) and 0.9 for comparability.

      Why is the kinetic constant for duplex decay reaction 1.15e10−8?

      Note that this value is the minimum of the duplex decay rate, Table 1 correctly shows the interval of this kinetic constant as: [1.15 ⋅ 10-8, 6.4 ⋅ 10-5]. Both values are derived from the basic parameters of the system and can be computed according to Eq. (11). The minimum: as the parameter set corresponding to this value is: . The maximum: with .

      Are those values related to experiments, or are they chosen because specific behaviors can happen only then?

      See above.

      The choice of the model and parameters potentially impact the two main results, the attenuation of the error threshold and the role of GC content:

      Regarding the error threshold, it is also noted (lines 379-385) that it disappears when back mutations are taken into account. This suggests that overcoming the error threshold might not be as difficult as suggested, and can be achieved in several ways, which calls into question the importance of the particular role of parabolic growth. Besides, when the concentration of replicators is low, product inhibition may be negligible, such that a "parabolic replicator" is effectively growing exponentially and an error catastrophe may occur. Do the authors think that this consideration could affect their conclusion? Can simulations be performed?

      The assumption of back mutation only provides a theoretical solution to the error threshold problem: back mutation guarantees a positive (non-zero) concentration of a master type, but, since the probability of back mutation is generally very low, this equilibrium concentration may be extremely low, or negligible for typical system sizes. Consequently, back mutation alone does not solve the problem of the error catastrophe: in our system back mutation is present (the probability that a sequence with 𝑘 errors mutates back to a master sequence is 𝜇k(1−𝜇)L-k), and the diversity-maintaining ability is limited. The effect of back mutation decreases exponentially with increasing sequence length.

      Regarding the role of the GC content, GC-rich oligomers are found to perform the worst but no rationale is provided.

      For GC-rich oligonucleotides the dissociation probability of a template-copy complex is relatively low (cf. Eqs. (9, 10)), thus they have a relatively low number of offspring, cf. lines 557-561: “a relatively high dissociation probability and the consequential higher propensity of being in a simple stranded form provides an advantage for sequences with relatively low GC content in terms of their replication affinity, that is, the expected number of offspring in case of such variants will be relatively high.”. Note that the simulation results shown in Fig. 3A, demonstrate the realization of this effect with prepared sequences (along a GC content gradient).

      One may assume that it happens because GC-rich sequences are comparatively longer to release the product. However, it is also conceivable that higher GC content may help in the polymerization of the monomers as the monomers attach longer on the template (as described in Eq. (9)). This is an instance where the choice to pull into a single step the association and polymerization reactions are pulled into a single step independent of GC content may be critical.

      It would be important to show that the result arises from the actual physics and not from this modeling choice.

      Some more specific points that would deserve to be addressed:

      • Line 53: it is said that p "reflects how easily the template-reaction product complex dissociates". This statement is not correct. A reaction order p<1 reflects product inhibition, the propensity of templates to bind to each other, not slow product release. Product release can be limiting, yet a reaction order of 1 can be achieved if substrate concentrations are sufficiently high relative to oligomer concentrations (von Kiedrowski et al., 1991).

      We think the key reference is Von Kiedrowski (1993) in this case. Other things being equal, his Table 1 on p. 134 shows that a sufficient increase in 𝐾4, i.e., the stability of the duplex (template and copy) (association rate divided by dissociation rate) throws the system into the parabolic regime. This is what we had in mind. In order to clarify this, we modified the quoted sentence thus: “In this kinetics, the growth order is equal or close to 0.5 (i.e., the dynamics is sub-exponential) because increased stability of the template-copy complex (rate of association divided by dissociation) promotes parabolic growth (von Kiedrowski et al., 1991; von Kiedrowski & Szathmáry, 2001).”

      • Population size is a key parameter, and a comparison is made between small (10^3) and large (10^5) populations, but without explaining what determines the scale (small/large relative to what?).

      The “small” value (103) corresponds to the smallest meaningful population size, significantly smaller population sizes (e.g. 102) cannot maintain the 10 master types (or any subset of them) and are chemically unrealistic. The “large value” (105) is the largest population size for which simulation times are still acceptable, in the case of 106 the runtimes are in the order of months.

      • In the same vein, we might expect size not to be the only important parameter, but also concentration.

      With constant volume population size and concentration are strictly coupled.

      • Lines 543-546: if understanding correctly, the quantitative result is that the error threshold rises from 0.1 in the exponential case to 0.196 in the parabolic. Are the authors suggesting that a factor of 2 is a significant difference?

      In this paragraph we compared the empirical error threshold of our system (which is close to 𝑝"#$ = 0.15) with the error threshold of the well-known single peak fitness landscape (which can be approximated by ) as a reference case. To make the message even clearer we have extended the last sentence (lines 596-597) as follows: “but note that applying this approach to our system is a serious oversimplification”. The 0.196 is simply the probability of error-free replication of a sequence when , but we have removed this sentence (“corresponding to the replication accuracy of a master sequence”) from the manuscript as it seems to be confusing.

      • Figure 3C: this figure shows no statistically significant effect?

      Thank you for pointing out this. We statistically tested the hypothesis that the GC content between the survived and the extinct master subsets are different. This analysis revealed that the differences between these two groups are statistically significant, which we now included in the manuscript at lines 380-390: “A direct investigation of whether the sequence composition of the master types is associated with their survival outcome was conducted using the data from the constant population model simulation results (Figure 2). In these data, the average GC content was measured to be lower in the surviving master subpopulations than in the extinct subpopulations (Figure 3C). To determine whether this difference was statistically significant, nonparametric, two-sample Wilcoxon rank-sum tests (Hollander & Wolfe, 1999) were performed on the GC content of the extinct-surviving master subsets. The GC content was significantly different between these two groups in all nine investigated parameter combinations of population size (N) and replicability distance (δ) at p<0.05 level, indicating a selective advantage for a lower GC content in the constant population model context. The exact p values obtained from this analysis are shown in Figure 3C.”

      • line 542: "phase transition-like species extension (Figure 4B)": such a clear threshold is not apparent.

      Thank you for pointing out the incorrect phrasing. As there is no clear threshold in the number of coexisting types as a function of the mutation rate, we removed the “phase transition-like” expression: “However, when finite population sizes and stochastic effects are taken into account, at the largest investigated per-base mutation rate (𝑝mut = 0.15), the summed relative steady-state master frequencies approach zero (Figure 4C) with accelerating species extinction (Figure 4B), indicating that this value is close to the system׳s empirical error threshold.” (lines 589-594).

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      On the whole, the work is well done and presented, there are no major recommendations. It seems a good idea to cite and briefly discuss this recent paper: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36996101/ which develops a symbiotic scenario of the coevolution of primordial replicators and reproducers that appears to be fully compatible with the results of the current work.

      Thank you for bringing this article to our attention. We have inserted the following sentence at lines 621-624: “The demonstrated diversity-maintaining mechanism of finite parabolic populations can be used as a plug-in model to investigate the coevolution of naked and encapsulated molecular replicators (e.g., Babajanyan et al., 2023).”

      The manuscript is well written, but there are some minor glitches that merit attention. For example:

      l. 5 "carriers presents a problem, because product formation and mutual hybridization" - "mutual" is superfluous here, delete

      l. 13 "amplification. In addition, sequence effects (GC content) and the strength of resource" - hardly "effects" - should be 'features' or 'properties'

      l. 41 "If enzyme-free replication of oligomer modules with a high degree of sequence" - "modules" here is only confusing - simply, "oligomers"

      l. 44 "under ecological competition conditions with which distinct replicator types with different" - delete "with" etc, there are many such minor glitches that are best corrected.

      Thank you for pointing out, we have corrected! Other drafting errors, glitches, superfluous sentences have also been corrected.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      None

      Editor (Recommendations For The Authors):

      In the manuscript, it appears that coexistence is assessed at a given point in time, while figures seem to show that it remains time-dependent. It would be great if the authors could clarify this and/or discuss this.

      We appreciate you bringing this to our attention, as we have indeed missed to elaborate on this important point. The steady state characteristic of the coexistence is assessed in our model in the following way: the relative frequency of each master sequence is tested for the condition of ≥ 100- (cut-off relative frequency for survival) in every 2,000th replication step in the interval between 10,000 replication steps before termination and actual termination (10= replication steps). If the above condition is true more than once, we consider the master type in question as survived (we have included this explanation in the Methods section: lines 258-268). Although this relatively narrow time interval can still be regarded as a snapshot of the state of the system, according to our numerical experiences, the resulting measure is a reliable quantitative indicator of the apparent stability of species coexistence in the parabolic dynamics.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Responses to reviewers’ comments

      (1) The rationale of selecting tNOX/ENOX2 as a potential target of 4-dmH, but not heliomycin, is unclear by taking a biased approach. Thus, there is high possibility that 4-dmH binds to other proteins involved in apoptosis inhibition. An unbiased screen to identify 4-dmH-binding proteins would be a better approach unless there is a clear and logical rationale.

      We apologize for this oversight. In response to this comment, we rewrote the abstract, reorganized the results, and added more references to better introduce tNOX/ENOX2.

      A) Under the “4-dmH, but not heliomycin, targets intracellular tNOX, an upstream regulator of SIRT1” result section:

      We next addressed the molecular mechanisms underlying SIRT1 inhibition and concurrent cell death by these two compounds in oral cancer cells. Being an NAD+-dependent protein deacetylase, SIRT1 activity is primarily governed by NAD+/NADH ratio, thus, there exists a positive correlation between these two [1-9]. We then questioned whether these two compounds inhibit SIRT1 by affecting the intracellular NAD+/NADH levels, and were surprised to find that 4-dmH, but not heliomycin, caused a prominent inhibition of intracellular NAD+/NADH ratio (revised Fig. 7a). The discrepancy in their ability to reduce NAD+ generation led us to explore the role of a tumor-associated NADH oxidase (tNOX, ENOX2) in 4-dmH-suppressed SIRT1 and apoptosis induction. We have previously reported that tNOX inhibition reduced the intracellular NAD+/NADH ratio and SIRT1 deacetylase activity, increasing p53 acetylation and apoptosis [10-13]. In the light of this information, we assessed the effect of the compounds on tNOX expression and found that 4-dmH, but not heliomycin, considerably diminished tNOX protein expression in a concentration-dependent manner (Fig. 7b).

      B) To demonstrate that our results from ligand-binding assays (CETSA) were specific to tNOX, we conducted more CETSA experiments to exclude PARP or NOX4 targets of 4-dmH. PARP acts as a DNA damage sensor and also a NAD+-consuming enzyme, affecting many cellular functions [14]. NOX4 belongs to the NOX family of NADPH oxidases that mediate electron transport through intracellular membranes and is also shown to be involved in tumorigenesis [15, 16]. We show that 4-dmH treatments did not seem to increase the melting temperature of PARP or NOX4, excluding those two proteins as potential targets of 4-dmH (revised Fig. 8c).

      Author response image 1.

      (2) The authors should show whether heliomycin indeed does not induce apoptosis, while 4-dmH cannot induce autophagy.

      We have reorganized and revised our manuscript and figures (Fig. 5 and Fig. 6) to better demonstrate the different cell death pathways associated with heliomycin and 4-dmH. Using flow cytometry, we show that heliomycin, but not 4-dmH, induced autophagy in two lines of oral cancer cells (Fig. 5a). In the revision, we moved up the analysis of apoptosis by JC-1 staining to Figure 5 (revised Fig. 5b). We also reorganized the protein analysis to demonstrate better the downregulation of pro-apoptotic Bak and Puma and a lack of caspase 3-directed PARP cleavage, indicating the ineffective apoptosis by heliomycin (revised Fig. 5c). Similarly, we found that the absence of upregulation of ULK1, Atg 5, Atg7, and cleaved LC3-II provided evidence for the inadequate autophagy by 4-dmH (revised Fig. 5d). Attached please see the revised Figure 5.

      Author response image 2.

      (3) They should demonstrate whether genetic knockdown of tNOX, SirT1, or both tNOX and SirT1 induces apoptosis or autophagy and also reduces malignant properties of oral cancer cells.

      A) In the revision, we conducted more experiments utilizing the RNAi-knockdown to understand the role of tNOX on the regulation of apoptosis or autophagy. Our results indicate that the tNOX-depletion effectively provoked spontaneous apoptosis and autophagy in SAS cells (revised Fig. 7e). However, given that SIRT1 per se is not the focus of this present study and SIRT1-knockdown has been shown to increase apoptotic population by other groups [17] [18], we decided not to pursue it further.

      Author response image 3.

      B) In our earlier studies, we have adequately demonstrated that tNOX confers a survival advantage for cancer cells. For example, tNOX-deficiency by RNA interference in cancer cells abolishes cancer phenotypes, reducing NAD+ production, proliferation, and migration/invasion while increasing apoptosis [19-22]. On the other hand, tNOX-overexpressing in non-cancerous cells stimulates the growth of cells, decreases doubling time, and enhances cell migration [23-26].

      (4) The authors should examine whether overexpression of SirT1 or tNOX in cells treated with heliomycin or 4-dmH could nullify heliomycin-induced autophagy and 4-dmH-induced apoptosis. Also, instead of overexpressing tNOX, they can supplement NAD into cells treated with 4-dmH.

      A) The utilization of tNOX overexpression has been previously reported in several studies, demonstrating that tNOX-overexpressing in non-cancerous cells stimulates the growth of cells, decreases doubling time, and enhances cell migration [23-26]. However, in our experiences, the effect of tNOX overexpression in cancer cells is much less apparent than that in non-cancerous cells. Thus, we decided not to study it further, given that our results from tNOX knockdown have evidently signified the role of tNOX in the regulation of apoptosis and autophagy.

      B) Since SIRT1 is not the major focus of this present study and SIRT1-overexpression has been shown to reduce stress-mediated apoptosis by other groups [27, 28], we decided not to pursue it further.

      C) The systemic deterioration in NAD+ level has been correlated with many diseases and aging [29-31]. In this regard, NAD+ administration was reported to attenuate doxorubicin-induced apoptosis in the liver of mice, suggesting a protective effect [32]. The administration of nicotinamide riboside (NR), a precursor of NAD+, was also demonstrated to prevent ROS generation and apoptosis in the mouse sepsis models [33]. With data from these animal studies already demonstrating the benefits of NAD+ supplements, we decided not to conduct similar experiments in a cell-based setting.

      (5) Related to Fig. 5C and 6a, the authors should examine the effects of heliomycin and 4-dmH on the cell cycle profiles, Annexin V positivity, and colony formation.

      We added the results from colony-forming assays and revealed that both compounds exhibited high growth-suppressive ability against oral cancer cells (revised Fig. 6c). Nevertheless, we showed that the diminution in growth by the compounds was least likely to arise from cell cycle arrest mediated by these two compounds (revised Fig. 6d). Due to the possible interference of the fluorescence wavelength of heliomycin/derivative, we examined JC-1 staining rather than Annexin V positivity. The apoptotic effect of the compounds was demonstrated in revised Fig. 5b in the revision.

      Author response image 4.

      (6) They should also examine whether either or both heliomycin and 4-dmH induce reactive oxygen species (ROS).

      In our previous report, we examined the effects of heliomycin and 4-dmH on oxidative stress utilizing H2DCFDA [34]. The dye fluoresces in the presence of intracellularly generated reactive oxygen species (ROS). We showed that 4-dmH significantly induced the generation of ROS generation. However, no marked ROS generation was observed in cells exposed to heliomycin.

      (7) Related to Fig. 9d, they should mutate amino acid residue(s) in tNOX that are crucial for the 4-dmH-tNOX binding, including Ile 90, Lys98, Pro111, Pro113, Leu115, Pro117, and Pro118, to examine whether these mutants lose the binding to 4-dmH and fail to rescue 4-dmH-induced apoptosis, unlike wild-type tNOX.

      For further evaluation of the importance of the consistent interaction residues in the three docked compound-tNOX complexes, the seven interaction residues on tNOX were substituted with alanine or glycine amino acids and then simulated the protein structures. The simulated protein structures appear slightly different from the original tNOX structure. Overall, the root mean square difference between the original tNOX structure and the structures with residues substituted by alanine or glycine amino acids was estimated at 3.339 or 4.024 angstroms (Å), respectively (Fig. S1a). The simulated protein structures were also employed to conduct the docking analysis for 4-dmH. The results of further docking analysis revealed that 4-dmH could bind within the same pocket of different types of tNOX structures but with varying orientations (Fig. S1b). This observation also suggests that the replacement of both key residues with alanine or glycine could result in a reduction of the binding affinity of 4-dmH to tNOX, with values of -8.2 and -7.6 kcal/mol, respectively. Moreover, the substitution of both key residues with alanine or glycine also reduces the number of the original interacting residues and interaction forces in core moieties in the 4-dmH-tNOX complexes (Fig. S1c and S1d). Together, our experimental results and molecular docking simulations are consistent with the notion that 4-dmH possesses a better affinity ability for tNOX than for SIRT1.

      Author response image 5.

      The simulated tNOX structures (a, b) and the binding modes of 4-dmH after docking study (c, d). (a) Superimposition of three types of tNOX structures, including the original tNOX structure (orange) and the critical residues in tNOX protein substituted with alanine (magenta) or glycine (cyan). The substituted residues were shown as sticks. (b) Superimposition of the docked 4-dmH (blue). (c) Schematic presentations of possible interactions between 4-dmH and the interacted residues in tNOX protein substituted with alanine. (d) Schematic presentations of possible interactions between 4-dmH and the interacted residues in tNOX protein substituted with glycine. The key residues were identified based on the best docking pose of 4-dmH. The red circles and ellipses indicate the identical residues that interacted with different types of tNOX structures.

      (8) Related to Fig. 10a, heliomycin appears to also reduce tNOX levels (although the extent is not as robust as 4-dmH), which is not expected since heliomycin does not bind to tNOX. They should compare the effects of heliomycin and 4-dmH on reducing the protein levels of tNOX. If heliomycin does not change the tNOX protein levels, then they need to discuss why heliomycin reduces tNOX levels in vivo.

      In our previous studies, we have shown that tNOX knockdown partially attenuates SIRT1 expression and represses growth in various cancer cell types, such as lung [22], bladder [20], and stomach [13]. We also observed that tNOX is acetylated/ubiquitinated under certain stresses and SIRT1 depletion affects tNOX expression (data not shown). It is speculated that SIRT1 deacetylates tNOX and modulates its protein stability. Thus, there is a reciprocal regulation between tNOX and SIRT1. Although heliomycin does not bind to tNOX, its inhibition of SIRT1 activity/expression might also have an impact on tNOX expression.

      (9) Related to Fig. 10F, if tNOX is an upstream regulator of SirT1 and both heliomycin and 4-dmH ultimately target SirT1, it is unclear why heliomycin and 4-dmH cause different biological outcomes. One explanation is that tNOX has apoptosis-inhibiting function other than supporting (or independent of) SirT1 and hence 4-dmH-mediated tNOX inhibition causes apoptosis rather than autophagy. They should explain and discuss more about whether tNOX-inhibiting/binding function of 4-dmH is sufficient to explain the different biological outcomes from heliomycin.

      Thank you for this valuable suggestion. Indeed, in our earlier studies, we have adequately demonstrated that tNOX-deficiency by RNA interference in cancer cells abolishes cancer phenotypes, reducing NAD+ production, proliferation, and migration/invasion while increasing apoptosis; thus, tNOX confers a survival advantage for cancer cells [19-22]. On the other hand, tNOX-overexpressing in non-cancerous cells stimulates the growth of cells, decreases doubling time, and enhances cell migration [23-26]. With these lines of evidence, we believe that tNOX not only supports but also exerts functions independent of SIRT1. The tNOX- and SIRT1-inhibiting function of 4-dmH, thus, results in the different biological outcomes from the SIRT1-binding heliomycin.

      (10) They should examine the effects of heliomycin and 4-dmH on cell viability of non-tumor cells to examine their toxicities.

      Using cell impedance measurements, we also examined the effects of heliomycin and 4-dmH on the proliferation of human non-cancerous BEAS-2B cells. Our results demonstrated that heliomycin did not exhibit cytotoxicity toward human non-cancerous BEAS-2B cells (revised Fig. 6a). Furthermore, the water-soluble 4-dmH effectively diminished cell proliferation in a dose-dependent manner in oral cancer cells, but much less apparent in that of BEAS-2B cells (revised Fig. 6b). Similar results were reported in our previous study, indicating that 4-dmH displayed much higher IC50 values against non-cancerous human dermal microvascular endothelium HMEC-1 cells compared to those of tumor cells [34].

      Author response image 6.

      (11) They should consistently use either tNOX or ENOX2 to avoid confusion.

      Thank you for the suggestion. We have now consistently used tNOX throughout the manuscript. However, for the revised Figure 7d, the commercially available antibody to ENOX2 (from Proteintech, Rosemont, IL, USA) is different from the one to tNOX (produced in our laboratory) and this is the only place we have used ENOX2 rather than tNOX.

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer 1:

      (1) General comment: The evidence for these highly novel, potentially interesting roles (of the exocyst) would need to be more compelling to support direct involvement.

      We wish to thank the reviewer for his/her comments, and for considering that the proposed functions are highly novel and potentially interesting. To strengthen the evidence supporting the new roles of the exocyst, we have performed a number of additional experiments that are depicted in novel figures or figure panels of the new version of the manuscript. Particularly, we aimed at providing further support of the direct involvement of the exocyst in different steps of the regulated secretory pathway. Please see the details below.

      (2) For instance, the localization of exocyst to Golgi or to granule-granule contact sites does not seem substantial.

      We have performed quantitative colocalization studies, as suggested by the reviewer to further substantiate our initial findings. We have carefully analysed GFP-Sec15 distribution in relation to the Golgi complex and secretory Glue granules at relevant time points of salivary gland development. Overall, we found that GFP-Sec15 distribution is dynamic during salivary gland development. Before Glue synthesis (72 h AEL), Sec15 was observed in close association (defined as a distance equal to, or less than 0.6 µm) with the Golgi complex (please see below Author response image 1). This association was lost once Glue granules have begun to form (96 h AEL). Importantly, we do not see relevant association between GFP-Sec15 and the ER (please see Author response image 2). These observations support our conclusion that the exocyst plays a role at the Golgi complex. New images supporting these conclusions, as well as quantitative data, have been included in Figure 5 of the new version of the manuscript. In addition, real time imaging, as well as 3D reconstruction analyses, confirming the close association between Sec15 and Golgi cisternae are now included in the manuscript. Please see Supplementary Videos 1-3. These new data are described in the text lines 200-210 of the Results section and text lines 359368 of the Discussion section.

      Interestingly, at the time when Sec15-Golgi association is lost (96 h AEL), Sec15 foci associate instead with newly formed secretory granules (< 1µm diameter). This association persists during secretory granule maturation (100-116 h AEL), when Sec15 foci localize specifically in between neighbouring, immature secretory granules. When maturation has ended and Glue granule exocytosis begins (116-120 h AEL), this localization between granules is lost. These observations are consistent with a role of the exocyst in homotypic fusion during SG maturation. We have included new images showing that association between Sec15 and secretory granules is dynamic and depends on the developmental stage. We have quantified this association both during maturation and at a stage when SGs are already mature. We have in addition performed a 3D reconstruction analysis of these images to confirm the close association between Sec15 and immature SGs. These new data are now depicted in Figure 7BC, Supplementary Videos 4-5, and described in text lines 216-221 of the Results section. In addition, a lower magnification image is provided below in this letter (Author response image 3), quantifying the proportion of Sec15 foci localized in between SGs (yellow arrows) relative to the total number of Sec15 foci (yellow arrows + green arrowheads).

      Author response image 1.

      Criteria utilized to define Sec15 focithat were“associated” or“not associated” withthe trans-Golgi network in the experiments of Figure 5C-E of the manuscript.When the distance between maximal intensities of GFP-Sec15 and Golgi-RFP signals was equal or less than 0.6 m, the signals were considered “associated” (upper panels). When the distance was more than 0.6 m, the signals were considered “not associated” (lower panels).

      Author response image 2.

      Criteria utilized to define Sec15 focithat were“associated” or“not associated” withthe ERin the experiments of Figure 5A-Bof the manuscript.When the distance between maximal intensities of GFP-Sec15 and KDEL-RFP signals was equal or less than 0.6 m, the signals were considered “associated”. When the distance was more than 0.6 m, the signals were considered “not associated”.

      Author response image 3.

      (A) GFP-Sec15 foci (cyan) and SGs (red) are shown in cells bearing Immature SGs or (B) with mature SGs. Yellow arrows indicate GFP-Sec15 foci localized in between SGs; green arrowheads indicate GFP-Sec15 foci that arenot in between SGs. (C) Quantification of the percentage (%) of Sec15 foci localized in between SGs respect to the total number of Sec15 foci in cells filled with immature SGs (ISG)vs cells with mature SGs (MSG).

      It is interesting to mention that previous evidence from mammalian cultured cells (Yeaman et al,  2001) show that the exocyst localizes both at the trans-Golgi network and at the plasma membrane, weighing in favour of our claim that the exocyst is required at various steps of the exocytic pathway. Thus, the exocyst may play multiple roles in the secretion pathway in other biological models as well. This concept has now been included at the Discussion section of the revised version of the manuscript (lines 359-368).

      To make the conclusions of our work clearer, in the revised version of the manuscript, we have now included a graphical abstract, summarizing the dynamic localization of the exocyst in relation to the processes of SG biogenesis, maturation and exocytosis reported in our work. 

      (3) Instead, it is possible that defects in Golgi traffic and granule homotypic fusion are not due to direct involvement of the exocyst in these processes, but secondary to a defect in canonical exocyst roles at the plasma membrane. A block in the last step of glue exocytosis could perhaps propagate backward in the secretory pathway to disrupt Golgi complexes or cause poor cellular health due to loss of cell polarity or autophagy.

      We thank the reviewer for these thoughtful comments. We have performed a number of additional experiments to assess “cellular health” or to identify possible defects in cell polarity after knock-down of exocyst subunits. These new data have been included in new supplementary figures 5 and 6 of the revised version of the manuscript (please see below). 

      In our view, the precise localization of GFP-Sec15 at the Golgi complex (Figure 5C-E), as well as in between immature secretory granules (Figure 7B-D), argues in favour of a direct involvement of the exocyst in SG biogenesis and homofusion respectively. 

      We truly appreciate the comment of the reviewer raising the possibility that the defects that we observe at early steps of the pathway (SG biogenesis and SG maturation) may actually stem from a backward effect of the role of the exocyst in SG-plasma membrane tethering. We wish to respectfully point out that the processes of biogenesis, maturation and plasma membrane tethering/fusion of SGs do not occur simultaneously in the Drosophila larval salivary gland in vivo, as they do in other secretory model systems (i.e. cell culture). In this regard, the experimental model is unique in terms of synchronization. In each cell of the salivary gland, the three processes (biogenesis, maturation and exocytosis) occur sequentially, and controlled by developmental cues. At the developmental stage when SGs fuse with the plasma membrane, SG biogenesis has already ceased many hours earlier: SG biogenesis occurs at 96-100 hours after egg lay (AEL), SG maturation takes place at 100-112 hours AEL, and SG-plasma membrane fusion happens only when all SGs have undergone maturation and are ready to fuse with the plasma membrane at 116-120 h AEL. Thus, in our view it is not conceivable that a defect in SG-plasma membrane tethering/fusion (116-120 h AEL) may affect backwards the processes of SG biogenesis or SG maturation, which have occurred earlier in development (96-112 h AEL).

      As suggested by the reviewer, we have analysed several markers of cellular health and cell polarity, comparing conditions of exocyst subunit silencing (exo70RNAi, sec3RNAi or exo84RNAi) with wild type controls (whiteRNAi). These new data are depicted in Supplementary Figures 5 and 6, and described in lines 172-179 of the Results section of the revised version of the manuscript. Noteworthy, for these experiments we have applied silencing conditions that block secretory granule maturation, bringing about mostly immature SGs. Our analyses included: 1) Subcellular distribution of PI(4,5)P2, 2) subcellular distribution of the tetraspanin CD63, 3) of Rab11, 4) of filamentous actin, and 5) of CD8. We have also compared 6) nuclear size and nuclear general morphology, 7) the number and distribution of mitochondria, 8) morphology and subcellular distribution of the cis- and 9) trans-Golgi networks. Finally, 10) we have compared basal autophagy in salivary cells with or without knocking down exocyst subunits. The markers that we have analysed behaved similarly to those of control salivary glands, suggesting that the observed defects in regulated exocytosis indeed reflect different roles of the exocyst in the secretory pathway, rather than poor cellular health or impaired cell polarity.  

      Our conclusions are in line with previous studies in which apico-basal polarity, Golgi complex morphology and distribution, as well as apical membrane trafficking were also evaluated in exocyst mutant backgrounds, finding no anomalies (Jafar-Nejad et al, 2005). 

      Conversely, in studies in which apical polarity was disturbed by interfering with Crumbs levels, SG biogenesis, maturation and exocytosis were not affected (Lattner et al, 2019), indicating that these processes not necessarily interfere with one another.  

      (4) Final recommendation: In the absence of stronger evidence for these other exocyst roles, I would suggest focusing the study on the canonical role (interesting, as it was previously reported that Drosophila exocyst had no function in the salivary gland and limited function elsewhere [DOI: 10.1034/j.1600-0854.2002.31206.x]), and leave the alternative roles for discussion and deeper study in the future.  

      We appreciate the reviewer´s recommendation. However, we believe that the major strength of our work is the discovery of non-canonical roles of the exocyst complex, unrelated to its function as a tethering complex for vesicle-plasma membrane fusion. We believe that in the new version of our manuscript, we provide stronger evidence supporting the two novel roles of the exocyst:

      a) Its participation in maintaining the normal structure of the Golgi complex, and b) Its function in secretory granule maturation.

      Reviewer 2:

      (5) General comment: A key strength is the breadth of the assays and study of all 8 exocyst subunits in a powerful model system (fly larvae). Many of the assays are quantitated and roles of the exocyst in early phases of granule biogenesis have not been ascribed. 

      We are grateful that the reviewer appreciates the novelty of our contribution.

      (6) However there are several weaknesses, both in terms of experimental controls, concrete statements about the granules (better resolution), and making a clear conceptual framework. Namely, why do KD of different exocysts have different effects on presumed granule formation

      The reviewer has raised a point that is central to the interpretation of all our data throughout the manuscript. The short answer is that the extent of RNAi-dependent silencing of exocyst subunits determines the phenotype: 

      1) Maximum silencing affects Golgi complex morphology and prevents SG biogenesis. 2) Intermediate silencing blocks SG maturation, without affecting Golgi complex morphology and SG biogenesis. 3) Weak silencing blocks SG tethering and fusion with the plasma membrane, without affecting Golgi complex morphology, SG biogenesis or SG maturation. 

      In other words, 1) Low levels of exocyst subunits are sufficient for normal Golgi complex morphology and SG biogenesis. 2) Intermediate levels of exocyst subunits are sufficient for SG maturation (and also sufficient for SG biogenesis). 3) High levels of exocyst subunits are required for SG tethering and subsequent fusion with the plasma membrane. 

      Based on the above notion, we have exploited the fact that temperature can fine-tune the level of Gal4/UAS-dependent transcription, thereby achieving different levels of silencing, as shown by Norbert Perrimon et al in their seminal paper “the level of RNAi knockdown can also be altered by using Gal4 lines of various strengths, rearing flies at different temperatures, or via coexpression of UAS-Dicer2” (Perkins et al, 2015). 

      We found in our system that indeed, by applying appropriate silencing conditions (RNAi line and temperature) to any of the eight subunits of the exocyst, we have been able to obtain one of the three alternative phenotypes: Impaired SG biogenesis, or impaired SG maturation, or impaired SG tethering/fusion with the plasma membrane.

      These concepts are summarized below in Author response image 4. Please see also at point 26, the general comment of Reviewer #3. 

      We have conducted qRT-PCR assays to provide experimental support to the notions summarized above in Author response image 4. We measured the remaining levels of mRNAs of some of the exocyst subunits, after inducing RNAi-mediated silencing at different temperatures, or with different RNAi transgenic lines. The remaining RNA levels after silencing correlate well with the observed phenotypes, following the predictions of Author response image 4 and summarized in Author response image 5. These new data are now shown in Supplementary Figure 2 of the revised version of the manuscript, and described in lines 153-159 at the Results section.

      (7) Why does just overexpression of a single subunit (Sec15) induce granule fusion?

      The reviewer raises a very important point. Based on available data from the literature, Sec15 behaves as a seed for assembly of the holocomplex and it also mediates the recruitment of the holocomplex to SGs through its interaction with Rab11 (Escrevente et al, 2021; Bhuin and Roy, 2019; Wu et al, 2005; Zhang et al, 2004; Guo et al, 1999). Thus, overexpression of Sec15 is expected to enhance exocyst assembly, thereby potentiating the activities carried out by the complex in the cell, including SG homofusion. In the revised version of the manuscript we have also performed the overexpression of Sec8, finding that, unlike Sec15, Sec8 fails to induce homotypic fusion. These results were expected, as they confirm that Sec8 does not behave as a seed for mounting the whole complex. These new data have been included in Figure 7E-H, and are described in text lines 221-229 of the Results section. 

      Author response image 4.

      Conceptual model of RNAi expression at different temperatures , remaining levels of mRNA/protein levels and phenotypes obtained at each temperature.

      Author response image 5.

      qRT-PCR assays presented in Supplementary Figure 2 are shown in combination with the phenotypes observed at each of the conditions analyzed. Note the correlation between phenotypes and the extent of mRNA downregulation.

      (8) While the paper is fascinating, the major comments need to be addressed to really be able to make better sense of this work, which at present is hard to disentangle direct vs. secondary effects, especially as much of the TGN seems to be altered in the KDs.  

      We hope that our response to point 6) has helped to clarify this important point raised by the Reviewer. After applying silencing conditions where normal structure of the trans-Golgi network is impaired, SG biogenesis does not occur. Thus, since SGs do not form, it is not conceivable to detect defects in SG maturation or SG fusion with the plasma membrane in the same cell.

      (9) The authors conveniently ascribe many of the results to the holocomplex, but their own data (Fig. 4 and Fig. 6) are at odds with this.

      This is another central point of our work, so we thank the reviewer for his/her comment. In Figures 4A, 7A and 9A of the revised version of the manuscript, we show that, by inducing appropriate levels of silencing of any of the 8 subunits of the exocyst, each of the three alternative phenotypic manifestations can occur. In our opinion, this argues in favour of a function for the whole exocyst complex in each of the three specific activities proposed in our study: 1) SG biogenesis, 2) SG maturation, and 3) SG tethering/fusion with the plasma membrane. In detailed characterizations of these three phenotypes performed throughout the study, we decided to induce silencing of just two or three of the subunits of the exocyst, assuming that the whole complex accounts the mechanisms involved.

      Major comments

      (10) Resolution not sufficient. Identification of "mature secretory granules" (MSG) in Fig. 3 is based on low-resolution images in which the MSG are not clearly seen (see control in Fig. 3A) and rather appear as a diffuse haze, and not as clear granules. There may be granules here, but as shown it is not clear. Thus it would be helpful to acquire images at higher resolution (at the diffraction limit, or higher) to see and count the MSG.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this point, as it may not be straightforward to the reader to identify the SGs throughout the figures of our study. To make it clearer, in Figure 3A (magnified insets on the right), we have delimitated individual SGs with a green dotted line, and included diagrams (far right), which we hope will help the identification of SGs. In Figure 3B, we show that after silencing Sec84, a mosaic phenotype was observed: In some cells SGs fail to undergo maturation, and remain smaller than normal. In other cells of this mosaic phenotype, biogenesis of SGs was impaired and the fluorescent cargo remained trapped in a mesh-like structure (that we later show that corresponds to the ER). The dotted line marks individual SGs, and the diagrams included on the right intend to help the interpretation of the phenotype. The mesh-like structures where Sgs3-GFP was retained are also marked with dotted line, and schematized on the right. These new schemes are described in the Figure 3 caption of the revised version of the manuscript.

      We wish to mention that all the confocal images depicted in this figure and throughout the manuscript  have been captured at high resolution, with a theoretical resolution limit of 168177nm (d = γ/2NA). Given that secretory granules range from 0.8-7µm in diameter, the resolution is more than sufficient to clearly resolve these structures. 

      (11) Note: the authors are not clear on which objective was used. Maybe the air objective as the resolution appears poor).  

      In this particular figure, we have utilized a Plan-Apochromat 63X/1.4NA oil objective of the inverted Carl Zeiss LSM 880 confocal microscope (mentioned in materials and methods).

      (12) They need to prove that the diffuse Sgs3-GFP haze is indeed due to MSG.  

      If we interpret correctly the concern of the reviewer, what he/she calls “diffuse haze” is actually the distribution of Sgs3-GFP within individual SGs, which, as previously reported by other authors, is not homogeneous at this stage (Syed et al. 2022). We hope that the diagrams that we have included in Figure 3 A, B (point 10) will help the readers interpreting the images.   

      (13) Related it is unclear what are the granule structures that correspond to Immature secretory granules (ISG) and cells with mesh-like structures (MLS)?

      We are confident that the diagrams now included in Figure 3A and B will help the interpretation, and particularly to identify immature granules and the mesh-like structure generated after silencing of exocyst subunits.

      (14) Similarly, Sgs3 images of KD of 8 exocyst subunits were interpreted to be identical, in Fig. 4, but the resolution is poor.

      We hope that the issue related to resolution of our images has been properly addressed in the response to point 10) of this letter. In Figure 4A, we show that after silencing of any of the 8 subunits (with the appropriate conditions), in all cases SG biogenesis was impaired, and Sgs3GFP was instead retained in a mesh-like structure. Images obtained after silencing different exocyst subunits are of course not identical, but in all cases, a mesh-like structure has replaced the formation of SGs (Figure 4A). Hopefully, the diagrams now included in Figure 3A and B help the correct interpretation of the phenotypes throughout the study.

      To demonstrate that the structure in which Sgs3-GFP was retained upon exocyst complex knockdown corresponds to the ER, we performed a colocalization analysis between Sgs3-GFP and the ER markers GFP-KDEL or Bip-sfGFP-HDEL, after which we calculated the Pearsons Coefficient, which indicated substantial colocalization (Figure 4B-G and Supplementary Figures 7 and 8). These new data are described in lines 196-199 of the revised version of the manuscript. To facilitate the visualization of the results, in the revised version of the manuscript we have included magnified cropped areas of the images shown in Figure 4A.

      (15) What is remarkable is a highly variable effect of different subunit KD on the percentage of cells with MLS (Fig. 4C). Controls = 100 %, Exo70=~75% (at 19 deg), Sec3 = ~30%, Sec10 = 0%, Exo84 = 100% ... This is interesting for the functional exocyst is an octameric holocomples, thus why the huge subunit variability in the phenotypes? The trivial explanation is either: i) variable exocyst subunit KD (not shown) or ii) variability between experiments (no error bars are shown). Both should be addressed by quantification of the KD of different proteins and secondly by replicating the experiments.

      We agree with the reviewer statement. We believe that both, variability of KD efficiency (i) and variability between experiments (ii) contribute to the variable effect observed after knocking down the different subunits. As detailed in the response to point 6), we have performed qRT-PCR determinations to confirm that the severity of the phenotype depends on the efficiency of RNAimediated silencing. We chose to analyse in detail the effect on the subunits exo70 and sec3, which were those with the highest phenotypic differences between the three silencing temperatures utilized. We found that as expected, the levels of silencing were temperaturedependent, being higher at 29°C and lower at 19°C. These data were included in Supplementary Figure 2, and described lines 153-159 of the Results section and also summarized in Author response images 4 and 5 of this rebuttal letter.

      We thank the reviewer for his/her comment on the replication of experiments and statistics. We failed to include detailed numerical information in the original submission, such as the number of replicas and standard deviations of the data depicted in Figure 3C and Supplementary Figure 1, so we apologize for this omission. In the revised version of the manuscript, we have included a table (Supplementary Table 3) in which all the raw data of Figure 3C and Supplementary Figure 1, including standard deviations, are now depicted.

      (16) If their data holds up then the underlying mechanism here needs to be considered.

      (Note: there is some precedent from the autophagy field of differential exocyst effects)

      Our proposed mechanism is essentially that the holocomplex is required for multiple processes along the secretory pathway. Each of these actions (Golgi structure maintenance, SG maturation and SG tethering/fusion with the plasma membrane) requires different amounts of holocomplex activity, being this the reason why each phenotype manifests at different levels of RNAi-mediated silencing (Author response image 4 of this letter). The model predicts that Golgi structure maintenance requires minimal levels of complex activity, and that is why strong knock-down of exocyst subunits is required to obtain this phenotype. In line with our results, it has been reported that other tethering complexes of the CATCHR family are also required for maintaining Golgi cisternae stuck together (D'Souza et al, 2020; Khakurel and Lupashin, 2023; Liu et al, 2019). One possibility is that the exocyst may play a redundant role in the maintenance of the normal structure of the Golgi complex, along with other CATCHR complexes. This potential redundancy could explain why severe exocyst knock-down is required to observe structural anomalies at this organelle. On the other end of the spectrum, we propose that tethering/fusion with the plasma membrane is very susceptible to even slight reduction of complex activity, so that mild RNAi-mediated silencing is sufficient to provoke defects in this process. This proposed model is depicted in Author response image 4 and discussed in lines 395-405 of the Discussion section. 

      (17) In the salivary glands the authors state that the exocyst is needed for Sgs3-GFP exit from the ER. First, Pearson's coefficient should be shown so as to quantitate the degree of ER localizations of all KDs.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment that helped us to strengthen the observation that when SG biogenesis is impaired, Sgs3-GFP remains trapped in the ER. In the revised version of the manuscript, we have calculated Pearson´s coefficient to assess colocalization between ER markers (GFP-KDEL or Bip-sfGFP-HDEL) and Sgs3-GFP in salivary gland cells that express sec15RNAi. The Pearson’s coefficient was around 0.6 for both ER markers, indicating that colocalization with Sgs3-GFP was substantial (Supplementary Figure 8, text lines 196-199 of the Results section).

      (18) Second, there should be some rescue performed (if possible) to support specificity. 

      As suggested by the reviewer, we have performed a rescue experiment of the phenotype provoked by the expression of sec15 RNAi, which consisted on the retention of Sgs3-GFP in the endoplasmic reticulum: Expression of Sec15-GFP reverted substantially the ER retention phenotype, rescuing SG biogenesis and also SG maturation in most cells (over 60% of the cells). These new data are now shown in Supplementary Figure 4, and described in lines 168-171 of the Results section.

      (19) Third, importantly other proteins that should traffic to the PM need to be shown to traffic normally so as to rule out a non-specific effect.

      We have addressed this issue (also mentioned by Reviewer #1), by analyzing the localization of a number of polarization markers, finding that the overall polarization of the cell was not affected by loss of function of exocyst subunits. Please, see our response to the point 3) raised by Reviewer #1. The new data showing cell polarization markers are shown in Supplementary Figure 6 of the revised version of the manuscript, and described on text lines 172-179 of the Results section.

      (20) It is unclear from their model (Fig. 5) why after exocyst KD of Sec15 the cis-Golgi is more preserved than the TGN, which appears as large vacuoles. This is not quantitated and not shown for the 8 subunits.

      We thank the reviewer for this relevant comment. We agree that the phenotype of either, sec15 or sec3 loss-of-function cells manifests differently with cis-Golgi and trans-Golgi markers. While the cis-Golgi marker looked fragmented and aggregated, the trans-Golgi marker adopted a swollen appearance. However, in our view, the different appearance of the two markers does not necessarily imply that one compartment is more preserved than the other. In the revised version of the manuscript, we have quantified the penetrance of the phenotypes provoked by sec15 or sec3 silencing, using both cis-Golgi and trans-Golgi markers. In both cases, the penetrance was high, although even higher with the trans-Golgi marker. These new data are now depicted in Supplementary Figure 9 of the revised version of the manuscript. 

      It is interesting to mention that in HeLa cells, as well as in the retinal epithelial cell line hTERT, Golgi phenotypes similar to those we have described here have been reported after loss-offunction of other tethering complexes, which were shown to maintain the Golgi cisternae stuck together, including the GOC and GARP complexes (D'Souza et al, 2020, Khakurel and Lupashin, 2023; Shijie Liu et al, 2019). As we did throughout our work, not every aspect of the analysis included the silencing of all eight subunits. In this case, we chose to silence Sec3 and Sec15. Please note that we have modified the model depicted in Figure 6E-F, to highlight the cis- and transGolgi phenotypes upon exocyst knock-down, as well as the localization of the exocyst in cisternae of the Golgi complex.

      (21) Acute/Chronic control: It would be nice to acutely block the exocyst so as to better distinguish if the effects observed are primary or secondary effects (e.g. on a recycling pathway).

      We thank the reviewer for raising this important issue. To address this point, and to be able to induce silencing of exocyst subunits at specific time intervals of larval development, we utilized a strategy based on a thermosensitive variant of the Gal4 inhibitor Gal80 (Gal80ts)(Lee and Luo, 1999). We blocked Gal4 activity (and therefore RNAi expression) by maintaining the larvae at 18 °C during the 1st and 2nd instars (until 120 hours after egg lay), and then induced the activity of Gal4 specifically at the 3rd larval instar by raising the temperature to 29 ºC, a condition in which Gal80ts becomes inactive. After silencing the expression of sec3 or sec15 at the 3rd larval instar only, the phenotype was very similar to that observed after chronic silencing of exocyst subunits (larvae maintained at 29 ºC all throughout development, where Gal4 was never inhibited). These observations suggest that the defects observed in the secretory pathway after knock down of exocyst subunits reflect genuine functions of the exocyst in this pathway, rather than a secondary effect derived from impaired development of the salivary glands at early larval stages. These new results are now shown in Supplementary Figure 3, and described in manuscript lines 160-171 of the Results section.   

      (22) Granule homotypic fusion. Strangely over-expression of just one subunit, Sec15-GFP, made giant secretory granules (SG) that were over 8 microns big! Why is that, especially if normally the exocyst is normally a holocomplex. Was this an effect that was specific to Sec15 or all exocyst subunits? Is the Sec15 level rate limiting in these cells? It may be that a subcomplex of Sec15/10 plays earlier roles, but in any case this needs to be addressed across all (or many) of the exocyst subcomplex members.

      Please, see our response to point 7) of this letter. Sec15 is believed to act as a seed for the formation of the whole complex.

      (23) In summary, there are clearly striking effects on secretory granule biogenesis by dysfunction of the exocyst, however right now it is hard to disentangle effects on ERGolgi traffic, loss of the TGN, and a problem in maturation or fusion of granules. 

      As discussed in detail in our response to the point 3 raised by Reviewer #1, the secretory pathway is highly synchronized in each of the cells of the Drosophila salivary gland. SG biogenesis, SG maturation and SG fusion with the plasma membrane never occur simultaneously in the same cell. Thus, in a cell in which ER-Golgi traffic is impaired (and SG biogenesis does not occur), SGs do not exist, and therefore, they cannot exhibit defects in the process of maturation or fusion with the plasma membrane. In summary, we believe that our work has shown that in Drosophila larval salivary glands the exocyst holocomplex is required for (at least) three functions along the secretory pathway: 1) To maintain the appropriate Golgi complex architecture, thus enabling ERGolgi transport; 2) For secretory granule maturation: both, homotypic fusion and acquisition of maturation factors; 3) For secretory granule exocytosis: secretory granule tethering to enable subsequent fusion with the plasma membrane. As mentioned above (point 6 of this letter), these three functions require different amounts of the holocomplex, and therefore can be revealed by inducing different levels of silencing.  

      (24) It is also confusing if the entire exocyst holocomplex or subcomplex plays a key role 

      The fact that, by silencing any of the subunits (with the appropriate conditions) it is possible obtain any of the 3 phenotypes (impaired SG biogenesis, impaired SG maturation or impaired SG fusion with the plasma membrane) argues in favour of a function of the complex as a whole in each of these three functions.

      Reviewer 3:

      (25) General comment: Freire and co-authors examine the role of the exocyst complex during the formation and secretion of mucins from secretory granules in the larval salivary gland of Drosophila melanogaster. Using transgenic lines with a tagged Sgs3 mucin the authors KD expression of exocyst subunit members and observe a defect in secretory granules with a heterogeneity of phenotypes. By carefully controlling RNAi expression using a Gal4-based system the authors can KD exocyst subunit expression to varying degrees. The authors find that the stronger the inhibition of expression of exocyst the earlier in the secretory pathway the defect. The manuscript is well written, the model system is physiological, and the techniques are innovative.

      We appreciate the reviewer´s assessment of our work. 

      (26) My major concern is that the evidence underlying the fundamental claim of the manuscript that "the exocyst complex participates" in multiple secretory processes lacks direct evidence.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this important issue. We believe that the analysis of Sec15 subcellular localization during salivary gland development (Figures 5, 7B-D and 9E-F), in combination with the detailed analysis of the phenotypes provoked by loss-of-function of each of the exocyst subunits, provide evidence supporting multiple functions of the exocyst in the secretory pathway. We have also included 3D reconstructions and videos of GFP-Sec15 colocalization with Golgi and SG markers to support exocyst localization associated to these structures (Supplementary Videos 1-7), text lines 200-210; 216-221 and 303-305.

      (27) It is clear from multiple lines of evidence, which are discussed by the authors, that exocyst is essential for an array of exocytic events. The fundamental concern is that loss of homeostasis on the plasma membrane proteome and lipidome might have severe pleiotropic effects on the cell.

      We agree with the reviewer that this is an important point that needed to be addressed. As discussed in detail above at the response to point 3 raised by Reviewer #1, we have analysed several plasma membrane markers (including a PI(4,5)P2 lipid reporter), and found that overall, plasma membrane integrity and polarity were not substantially affected (Supplementary Figure 6). In addition, we have analyzed several markers of general cellular “health” that indicate that salivary gland cells do not seem to be distressed by the reduction of exocyst complex activity (Supplementary Figure 5). These new data are described in lines 172-179 of the Results section.

      (28) Perhaps the authors have more evidence that exocyst is important for homeotypic fusion of the SGs, as supported by the localisation of Sec15 on the fusion sites.

      We believe that the fact that, by silencing any of the exocyst subunits (with the appropriate conditions), immature smaller-than-normal granules were observed, argus in favour that the exocyst as a whole participates in SG homofusion (Figure 7A). In addition, we have included more images, quantifications, 3D reconstructions and videos of GFP-Sec15 localized just at the contact sites between immature SGs. We have quantified and compared GFP-Sec15 localization at immature SG vs its localization at mature SGs, finding that localizes preferentially at immature SGs, supporting a role of the exocyst as a tethering complex during homotypic fusion (shown Figure 7B-C and Supplementary Videos 4-6, and described in lines 216-221 of the Results section). Please see also our response to the point 2 raised by reviewer 1 in this rebuttal letter, and to Author response image 3 above in this letter.

      (29) The second question that I think is important to address is, what exactly do the varying RNAi levels correspond to in terms of experiments, and have these been validated? Due to the fundamental claim being that the severity of the phenotype being correlated with the level of KD, I think validation of this model is absolutely essential.  

      We thank the Reviewer for raising this important point, and agree it was lacking in the original version of our manuscript. As discussed in our response to the point 6) raised by Reviewer #2, we have performed qRT-PCR determinations for exo70 and sec3 mRNA levels after inducing silencing of these subunits at different temperatures, or with different RNAi transgenic lines. The remnant mRNA levels correlate well with the observed phenotypes. Please see Supplementary Figure 2 of the revised manuscript, and Author response image 5 of this rebuttal letter; described in lines 155-159 of the Results section. 

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      -  The authors assert in the discussion that exocyst involvement in constitutive secretion is well documented. This is based on a very recent study in mammalian culture cells. Therefore, I would not dismiss the issue as completely settled. Furthermore, a previous study of Drosophila sec10 reported no roles outside the ring gland (DOI: 10.1034/j.1600-0854.2002.31206.x).

      We have included these observations in the Discussion section. Lines 326-329.

      -  A salivary gland screening by Julie Brill's lab reported exocyst components as hits (DOI: 10.1083/jcb.201808017).

      We have referred to this paper in the Discussion section. Lines 326-329.

      -  It should be explained in more detail what is measured in graphs 7C, F, and others quantifying fluorescence around secretory granules. Looking at the images, the decrease in Rab1 and Rab11 seems less convincing.

      We have made a clearer description of how fluorescence intensity was measured in the Methods section lines 558-561. Also, we have uploaded a source data file in which the raw data of each experiment used for quantifications are disclosed. 

      Please note that the data indicates that Rab11 levels are higher in sec5 (Figure 8J-L) and sec3 (supplementary Figure 11M-R).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      No major issues.

      Writing - The authors should better frame their interpretations of other studies of the exocyst that include the role in autophagy, Palade body trafficking, and differential roles of the subunits.

      We have discussed these specific points in the Discussion section, lines 348-355 and 409-410.

      Minor - Fig. 6A: Why are variable temperatures (19-29 deg C used for the 8 KD experiments)?

      Please show it all at the same temperature (control too).

      The need for the usage of specific temperatures to obtain specific phenotypes with each of the RNAi lines used was explained in point 6 of this letter.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      In the abstract, the authors refer to the exocytic process and go on to describe secretory granule biogenesis and exocytosis. However, there are many exocytic processes aside from secretory granule biogenesis, and I think the authors should clarify this.

      Corrected in the Abstract. Lines 19-21

      Page 17 Thomas, 2021 reference, there is a glitch with the reference.

      Thanks for noticing. Fixed.

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    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      The authors present a potentially useful model involving Ca2+ signaling in inflammasome activation. As it stands, it was felt that the data were not sufficient to support the model and the claims of the study are inadequately presented.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      This manuscript proposes a complex unclear model involving Ca2+ signaling in inflammasome activation. The experimental approaches used to study the calcium dynamics are problematic and the results shown are of inadequate quality. The major claims of this manuscript are not adequately substantiated.

      Major concerns:

      (1) The analysis of lysosomal Ca2+release is being carried out after many hours of treatment. Such evidence is not meaningful to claim that PA activates Ca2+ efflux from lysosome and even if this phenomenon was robust, it is not doubtful that such kinetics are meaningful for the regulation of inflammasome activation. Furthermore, the evidence for lysosomal Ca2+ release is indirect and relies on a convoluted process that doesn't make any conceptual sense to me. In addition to these major shortcomings, the indirect evidence of perilysosomal Ca2+ elevation is also of very poor quality and from the standpoint of my expertise in calcium signaling, the data are incredulous. The use of GCaMP3-ML1, transiently transfected into BMDMs is highly problematic. The efficiency of transfection in BMDMs is always extremely low and overexpression of the sensor in a few rare cells can lead to erroneous observations. The overexpression also results in gross mislocalization of such membrane-bound sensors. The accumulation of GCaMP3-ML1 in the ER of these cells would prevent any credible measurements of perilysosomal Ca2+ signals. A meaningful investigation of this process in primary macrophages requires the generation of a mouse line wherein the sensor is expressed at low levels in myeloid cells, and shown to be localized almost exclusively in the lysosomal membrane. The mechanistic framework built around these major conceptual and technical flaws is not especially meaningful and since these are foundational results, I cannot take the main claims of this study seriously.

      Ans) We agree with the reviewer’s concern that transfection efficiency could be low in BMDMs together with possible mislocalization of GCAMP3-ML1. However, in our experiment, transfection of BMDM with test plasmids resulted in good expression of test proteins. Below, we present our data showing good transfection efficiency of BMDM cells, while a different plasmid was employed.

      Author response image 1.

      (2) The cytosolic Ca2+ imaging shown in Figure 1C doesn't make any sense. It looks like a snapshot of basal Ca2+ many hours after PA treatment - calcium elevations are highly dynamic. Snapshot measurements are not helpful and analyses of Calcium dynamics requires a recording over a certain timespan. Unfortunately, this technical approach has been used throughout the manuscript. Also, BAPTA-AM abrogates IL-1b secretion because IL-1b transcription is Ca2+ dependent - the result shown in figure 1D does not shed light on anything to do with inflammasome activation and it is misleading to suggest that.

      Ans) We agree with the reviewer’s concern that snapshot could lead to false conclusion. We have not traced cytosolic Ca2+ content after treatment with LPS + PA. However, we have traced lysosomal Ca2+ and ER Ca2+ for more than 15 min, which was presented in Figure 4B. We also agree with the comment that BAPTA-AM might affect transcription of pro-IL-1β. We have conducted immunoblot analysis after treatment with LPS+PA in the presence of BAPTA-AM. Protein band of pro-IL-1β was not affected by BAPTA-AM treatment suggesting no effect of BAPTA-AM on transcription or translation of pro-IL-1β, which was added to Figure 1D, as suggested.

      (3) Trpm2-/- macrophages are known to be hyporesponsive to inflammatory stimuli - the reduced secretion of IL-1b by these macrophages is not novel. From a mechanistic perspective, this study does not add much to that observation and the proposed role of TRPM2 as a lysosomal Ca2+ release channel is not substantiated by good quality Ca2+ imaging data (see point 3 above). Furthermore, the study assumes that TRPM2 is a lysosomal ion channel. One paper reported TRPM2 in the lysosomes but this is a controversial claim, with no replication or further development in the last 14 years. This core assumption can be highly misleading to readers unfamiliar with TRPM2 biology and it is necessary to present credible evidence that TRPM2 is functional in the lysosomal membrane of macrophages. Ideally, this line of investigation should rest on robust demonstration of TRPM2 currents in patch-clamp electrophysiology of lysosomes. If this is not technically feasible for the authors, they should at least investigate TRPM2 localization on lysosomal membranes of macrophages.

      Ans) We agree with the reviewer’s comment that TRPM2. However, we have shown that TRPM2 current was not activated in the plasma membrane of BMDMs after treatment with LPS+PA. We also agree with the reviewer’s comment that inflammatory cytokine release from TRPM2 KO cells or inflammasome response of TRPM2 KO macrophages to ROS or nanoparticles has been reported to be reduced; however, the role of TRPM2 in metabolic inflammation or inflammasome activation in response to lipid stimulators has not been shown, as discussed in the new lines 9-10 from the bottom of page 18. Regarding the role of lysosomal TRPM2 in inflammation, we have shown that bafilomycin A1 treatment abrogated increase of cytosolic Ca2+ by LPS+PA (Figure 3-figure supplement 1D), supporting the role of lysosome and lysosomal Ca2+ in inflammasome activation by LPS+PA.

      We agree with the reviewer’s comment that TRPM2 expression on lysosome needs to be tested. We conducted confocal microscopy after immunofluorescence staining using anti-TRMP2 and -LAMP2 antibodies, which showed a certain portion of TRPM2 was colocalized with LAMP-2. This result substantiating TRPM2 expression on lysosome of macrophages was incorporated as Figure 2-figure supplement 1A.

      (4) Apigenin and Quercetin are highly non-specific and their effects cannot be attributed to CD38 inhibition alone. Such conclusions need strong loss of function studies using genetic knockouts of CD38 - or at least siRNA knockdown. Importantly, if indeed TRPM2 is being activated downstream of CD38, this should be easily evident in whole cell patch clamp electrophysiology. TRPM2 currents can be resolved using this technique and authors have Trpm2-/- cells for proper controls. Authors attempted these experiments but the results are of very poor quality. If the TRPM2 current is being activated through ADPR generated by CD38 (in response to PA stimulation), then it is very odd that authors need to include 200 uM cADPR to see TRPM2 current (Fig. 3A). Oddly, even these data cast great doubt on the technical quality of the electrophysiology experiments. Even with such high concentrations of cADPr, the TRPM2 current is tiny and Trpm2-/- controls are missing. The current-voltage relationship is not shown, and I feel that the results are merely reporting leak currents seen in measurements with substandard seals. Also 20 uM ACA is not a selective inhibitor of TRPM2 - relying on ACA as the conclusive diagnostic is problematic.

      Ans) We agree with the reviewer’s comment that effects of apigenin and quercetin could be due to mechanisms other than inhibition of CD38-mediated inflammasome activation. Indeed, that is the reason we have used TRPM2 KO mice and cells. Small TRPM2 current after treatment with high concentrations of cADPr might suggest the minor role of plasma membrane of TRPM2 in macrophage. Regarding concern about ACA, we added data showing inhibition of IL-1β release in response to LPS+PA by ACA as a new Figure 3-figure supplement 1A.

      (5) TRPM2 is expressed in many different cell lines. The broad metabolic differences observed by the authors in the Trpm2-/- mice cannot be attributed to macrophage-mediated inflammation. Such a conclusion requires the study of mice wherein Trpm2 is deleted selectively in macrophages or at least in the cells of the myeloid lineage.

      Ans) We agree with the reviewer’s comment that TRPM2 in cells other than macrophage might have affected the results. Thus, we have conducted in vitro stimulation of TRPM2-KO primary peritoneal macrophages with LPS+PA. We have observed that IL-1β release of TRPM2-KO macrophages in response in vitro treatment with LPS+PA was significantly lower than that from wild-type macrophages (Figure 2C & D), showing the role of TRPM2 in macrophages in inflammasome activation by LPS+PA, which could be independent of TRPM2 in tissues or cells other than macrophages.

      (6) The ER-Lysosome Ca2+ refilling experiments rely on transient transfection of organelle-targeted sensors into BMDMs. See point #1 to understand why I find this approach to be highly problematic. Furthermore, the data procured are also not convincing and lack critical controls (localization of sensors has not been demonstrated and their response to acute mobilization of Ca2+ has not been shown to inspire any confidence in these results).

      Ans) We agree with the reviewer’s comment that transfection or ER-targeted Ca2+ sensor could have artifactual effects. However, we have studied ER-Lysosome Ca2+ experiment using not only GEM-CEPIAer but also using D1ER, a FRET-based ER Ca2+ sensor which has an advantage of short distance of molecular interaction. Thus, we believe that changes of ER Ca2+ after treatment with LPS+PA is not due to an artifactual effect. Multiple contact between VAPA and ORP1L (Figure 4E) also supports ER-lysosome contact, likely facilitating ER-lysosome Ca2+ flux.

      (7) Authors claim that SCOE is coupled to K+ efflux. But there is no credible evidence that SOCE is activated in PA stimulated macrophages. The data shown in Fig 4 supp 1 do not investigate SOCE in a reliable manner - the conclusion is again based on snapshot measurements and crude non-selective inhibitors. The correct way to evaluate SOCE is to record cytosolic Ca2+ elevations over a period of time in absence and presence of extracellular Ca2+. However, even such recordings can be unreliable since the phenomenon is being investigated hours after PA stimulation. So, the only definitive way to demonstrate that Orai channels are indeed active during this process is through patch clamp electrophysiology of PA stimulated cells.

      Ans) We agree with the reviewer’s comment that the final proof of SOCE activation is activation of Orai channel evidenced by electrophysiology. However, we have shown STIM1 aggregation colocalized with Ora1, which is another strong evidence of SOCE channel activation (Vaca L. Cell Calcium 47:199, 2010). Such a paper showing the role of SOCE aggregation in SOCE activation was incorporated in the text (line 4 from the bottom of page 10) and References.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      In this manuscript by Kang et. al., the authors investigated the mechanisms of K+-efflux-coupled SOCE in NLRP3 inflammasome activation by LP(LPS+PA, and identified an essential role of TRPM2-mediated lysosomal Ca2+ release and subsequent IP3Rs-mediated ER Ca2+ release and store depletion in the process. K+ efflux is shown to be mediated by a Ca2+-activated K+ channel (KCa3.1). LP-induced cytosolic Ca2+ elevation also induced a delayed activation of ASK1 and JNK, leading to ASC oligomerization and NLRP3 inflammasome activation. Overall, this is an interesting and comprehensive study that has identified several novel molecular players in metabolic inflammation. The manuscript can benefit if the following concerns could be addressed:

      (1) The expression of TRPM2 in the lysosomes of macrophages needs to be more definitively established. For instance, the cADPR-induced TRPM2 currents should be abolished in the TRPM2 KO macrophages. Can you show the lysosomal expression of TRPM2, either with an antibody if available or with a fluorescently-tagged TRPM2 overexpression construct?

      Ans) We agree with the reviewer’s comment that TRPM2 expression on lysosome needs to be tested. We conducted confocal microscopy after immunofluorescent staining using anti-TRMP2 and -LAMP2 antibodies, which showed a certain portion of TRPM2 was colocalized with LAMP2. This result was incorporated as Figure 2-figure supplement 1A.

      (2) Can you use your TRPM2 inhibitor ACA to pharmacologically phenocopy some results, e.g., about [Ca2+]ER, [Ca2+]LY, and [Ca2+]i from the TRPM2 knockout? Ans) We agree with the reviewer’s comment that the effect of ACA on other experimental results needs to be shown. We did not study the effect of ACA on Ca2+ flux; however, we have observed that ACA inhibited IL-1β release in response to LPS+PA. This data was incorporated as Figure 3-figure supplement 1A.

      Author response image 2.

      (3) In Fig. S4A, bathing the cells in zero Ca2+ for three hours might not be ideal. Can you use a SOCE inhibitor, e.g, YM-58483, to make the point?

      Ans) We agree with the reviewer’s comment that SOCE inhibitor experiment would be necessary in addition to the experiment employing zero Ca2+. In fact, we have already used two SOCE inhibitors (2-APB and BTP2) (Figure 4-fig. supplement 1 B-D. Particularly, BTP2 experiment could eliminate possible role of ER Ca2+ inhibition that might occur when 2-APB was employed.

      (4) In Fig. 1A, you need a positive control, e.g., ionomycin, to show that the GPN response was selectively reduced upon LP treatment.

      Ans) We did not employ ionomycin as a control in this study. In our previous study using other agents inducing lysosomal Ca2+ efflux, we have observed lysosomal Ca2+ efflux with intact subsequent ionomycin response. While we did not include ionomycin in the current paper, we are positive that ionomycin response would be preserved.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      See Public Review.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (5) In Fig. 4B, the red label should read "BAPTA-1 Dextran", but not "GAPTA-1 Dextran".

      (6) Writing should be improved in many sections.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Response to the Referee Comments We would like to express our appreciation to the editor and the reviewers for their thoughtful comments and constructive suggestions on the manuscript. We agree with most of the comments and have carefully revised the manuscript accordingly. The revisions are highlighted in red font in the revised manuscript. Below are point-by-point responses to the referee’s comments.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Microglia are increasingly recognized as playing an important role in shaping the synaptic circuit and regulating neural dynamics in response to changes in their surrounding environment and in brain states. While numerous studies have suggested that microglia contribute to sleep regulation and are modulated by sleep, there has been little direct evidence that the morphological dynamics of microglia are modulated by the sleep/wake cycle. In this work, Gu et al. applied a recently developed miniature two-photon microscope in conjunction with EEG and EMG recording to monitor microglia surveillance in freely-moving mice over extended period of time. They found that microglia surveillance depends on the brain state in the sleep/wake cycle (wake, non-REM, or REM sleep). Furthermore, they subjected the mouse to acute sleep deprivation, and found that microglia gradually assume an active state in response. Finally, they showed that the state-dependent morphological changes depend on norepinephrine (NE), as chemically ablating noradrenergic inputs from locus coeruleus abolished such changes; this is in agreement with previous publications. The authors also showed that the effect of NE is partially mediated by β2-adrenergic receptors, as shown with β2-adrenergic receptor knock-out mice. Overall, this study is a technical tour de force, and its data add valuable direct evidence to the ongoing investigations of microglial morphological dynamics and its relationship with sleep. However, there are a number of details that need to be clarified, and some conclusions need to be corroborated by more control experiments or more rigorous statistical analysis. Specifically:

      1. The number of branch points per microglia shown here (e.g., Fig. 2g) is much lower than the values of branch points in the literature, e.g., Liu T et al., Neurobiol. Stress 15: 100342, 2021 (mouse dmPFC, IHC); Liu YU et al., Nat. Neurosci. 22: 1771-81, 2019 (mouse S1, in vivo 2P imaging). The authors need to discuss the possible source of such discrepancy.

      Thank you for raising this important point. Two reasons may account for this difference. Firstly, the difference in the definition of branch points in the software. Liu YU et al. used the Sholl analysis of image J software to analyze the number of branch points of microglia. Sholl analysis defines the number of branch points as the number of crossings between branches and concentric circles of increasing radii. We reconstructed microglia morphology using Imaris, a software that defines branching points based on the number of bifurcation points. The number of bifurcations calculated represents the number of microglia branch points. Secondly, this and previous studies found that more branching points present in the state of anesthesia. The morphological characteristics of microglia in head-fixed mice under anesthesia was reported by Liu T et al. and the microglia reconstruction results presented by the authors are indeed more complex than ours. In short, this is an aspect that we have been paying attention to, and the main reasons for this difference may lie in the definition of branch points, analysis methods and related choice of thresholds. True differences in brain states and the heterogeneity of microglia in different brain regions may also contribute to the apparent discrepancy.

      1. Microglia process end-point speed (Fig. 2h, o): here the authors show that the speed is highest in the wake state and lowest in NREM, which agrees with the measurement on microglia motility during wakefulness vs NREM in a recent publication (Hristovska I et al., Nat. Commun. 13: 6273, 2022). However, Hristovska et al. also reported lower microglia complexity in NREM vs wake state, which seems to be the opposite of the finding in this paper. The authors need to discuss the possible source of such differences.

      This is also an important point. Hristovska et al. reported the morphodynamic characteristics of microglia during wakefulness and NREM sleep. It is worth noting that the sleep state of the mice in their experiments was unnatural due to the head fixation and body limitations, the duration of NREM sleep (sleep stability) being quite different from the NREM sleep analyzed under natural sleep. The limitations of this approach are also discussed by Hristovska et al. “Even though sleep episodes were, as anticipated, shorter than those observed in freely moving animals, changes in neuronal activity characteristic of NREM sleep were monitored by EEG recordings, and changes in morphodynamics were observed during single episodes. Several episodes of REM sleep were detected, but they were too short and rare to be analyzed reliably.” The unnatural sleep state would lead to an increase in the microarousal state, and ultimately a change in the structure of the sleep state, which may be the main reason for the difference in microglia behavior from our natural sleep. We have discussed this in the revised manuscript. Please see line 292298.

      1. Fig. 3: the authors used single-plane images to analyze the morphological changes over 3 or 6 hours of SD, which raises the concern that the processes imaged at the baseline may drift out of focus, leading to the dramatic reduction in process lengths, surveillance area, and number of branch points. In fact, a previous study (Bellesi M et al., J. Neurosci. 37(21): 5263-73, 2017) shows that after 8 h SD, the number of microglia process endpoints per cell and the summed process length per cell do not change significantly (although there is a trend to decline). The authors may confirm their findings by either 3D imaging in vivo, or 3D imaging in fixed tissue.

      Three lines of evidence indicate that microglia morphology changes in Fig 3 are due to SD, rather than variations in the focal plane. First, our single-plane images were quite stable over 3 or 6 hours of SD, though occasional reversible drifts might happen due to sudden motions. Second, per your suggestion, further experiments and analysis of 3D imaging were performed to monitor microglia dynamics during sleep deprivation. The new result is shown in revised Fig. S3 C-D: the length of microglia branches and the number of branching points were significantly reduced after SD, in agreement with the results of single-plane imaging. Furthermore, we detected no significant difference in microglia branching characteristics during 6h sleep deprivation in 2AR KO mice (Fig.S4), and this indirectly affirmed that singleplane imaging is stable enough for detecting true changes in branching during SD.

      1. Fig. 4b: the EEG and EMG signals look significantly different from the example given in Fig. 2a. In particular, the EMG signal appears completely flat except for the first segment of wake state; the EEG power spectrum for REM appears dark; and the wake state corresponds to stronger low frequency components (below ~ 4 Hz) compared to NREM, which is the opposite of Fig. 2a. This raises the concern whether the classification of sleep stage is correct here.

      Thank you for insightful comments. We carefully examined the behavioral video of Figure 4b, there were occasionally microarousal events indicated by slow head rotation during NREM sleep, while the companion EMG signals were completely flat, which is atypical during sleep wake cycle. The microarousal events were not excluded from sleep, which makes this set of data unrepresentative and contrary to Fig.4b. In our revised manuscript, we replaced it with more representative data that can clearly and consistently distinguish between different brain states in mice on EMG and EEG. Please see revised Fig.2a, page 34; revised Fig.4b, page 37.

      1. Fig. 4 NE dynamics. • How long is a single continuous imaging session for NE? • When monitoring microglia surveillance, the authors were able to identify wake or NREM states longer than 15 min, and REM states longer than 5 min. Here the authors selected wake/NREM states longer than 1 min and REM states longer than 30 s. What makes such a big difference in the time duration selected for analysis? • Also, the definition of F0 is a bit unclear. Is the same F0 used throughout the entire imaging session, or is it defined with a moving window?

      A single continuous session of NE imaging usually took about 1 hour. Subsequent analysis was performed on imaging data from each recording that included wake, NREM sleep, and REM sleep. Because of the different time scales of microglia morphological dynamic (relatively slow) and NE signals (fast), we used different time windows in the previous analysis in the previous version of the manuscript.

      Per your suggestion, we have now set the same time window selection criteria for both microglia morphological and NE dynamic analysis: for wake and NREM sleep durations longer than 1 minute, and REM sleep durations longer than 30 seconds. We updated the Methods and all statistics in related figures, please see line 151-154, 481-485, 490-492; Fig. 2e-g and 2l-n, page 34. F0 definition is now explained in the Methods section. Please see line 521-522.

      1. Fig. 5b: how does the microglia morphology in LC axon ablation mice compare with wild type mice under the wake state? The text mentioned "more contracted" morphology but didn't give any quantification. Also, the morphology of microglia in the wake state (Fig. 5b) appears very different from that shown in Fig. S3C1 (baseline). What is the reason?

      The morphology of microglia is indeed heterogeneous and variable, affected by factors including brain state, brain region, microenvironmental changes, along with animal-to-animal difference. We didn’t perform the microglia morphology comparison between the LC axon ablation mice and wild type mice and, in view of this, we removed the description of “more contracted morphology” from the main text. It should also be noted that, as we primarily focused on changes of a microglia in different states over time by selfcomparison, we minimized possible effects of heterogeneity in microglia morphology on our conclusions.

      1. The relationship between NE level and microglia dynamics. Fig. 4C shows that the extracellular NE level is the highest in the wake state and the lowest in REM. Previous studies (Liu YU et al., Nat. Neurosci. 22(11):1771-1781, 2019; Stowell RD et al., Nat. Neurosci. 22(11): 1782-1792, 2019) suggest that high NE tone corresponds to reduced microglia complexity and surveillance. Hence, it would be expected that microglia process length, branch point number, and area/volume are higher in REM than in NREM. However, Fig. 2l-n show the opposite. How should we understand this ?

      Your point is well-taken. On the one hand, our data clearly showed that NE is critically involved in the brain state-dependent microglia dynamic surveillance, with evidence from the ablation of the LC-NE projection and from the β2AR knockout animal model.

      On the other hand, we also understand that NE is not the sole determinant, so the relationship between the NE level and the complexity and surveillance may not be unique.

      In this regard, other potential modulators also present dynamic during sleepwake cycle and may partake in the regulation of microglia dynamic surveillance. previous studies (Liu YU et al., 2019; Stowell RD et al., 2019) have shown that microglia can be jointly affected by surrounding neuronal activity and NE level during wake. It has been reported that LC firing stops (Aston-Jones et al., 1981; Rasmussen et al., 1986), while inhibitory neurons, such as PV neurons and VIP neurons, become relatively active during REM sleep (Brécier et al., 2022). ATP level in basal forebrain is shown to be higher in REM than NREM (Peng et al., 2023). In addition, our own preliminary result (Author response image 1) also showed a higher adenosine level in REM than NREM in somatosensory cortex. Last but not the least, we found that β2AR knockout failed to abolish microglial responses to sleep state switch and SD stress altogether.

      In brief, microglia are highly sensitive to varied changes in the surrounding environment, and many a modulator may participate in the microglia dynamic during sleep state. This may underlie the microglia complexity difference between REM and NREM. Future investigations are warranted to delineate the signal-integrative role of microglia in physiology and under stress. We have discussed the pertinent points in the revised manuscript. Please see line 343-354.

      Author response image 1.

      Extracellular adenosine levels in somatosensory cortex in different brain states. AAV2/9-hSyn-GRABAdo1.0 (Peng W. et al., Science. 2020) was injected into the somatosensory cortex (A/P, -1 mm; M/L, +2 mm; D/V, -0.3 mm). Data from the same recording are connected by lines. n = 9 from 3 mice.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The manuscript describes an approach to monitor microglial structural dynamics and correlate it to ongoing changes in brain state during sleep-wake cycles. The main novelty here is the use of miniaturized 2p microscopy, which allows tracking microglia surveillance over long periods of hours, while the mice are allowed to freely behave. Accordingly, this experimental setup would permit to explore long-lasting changes in microglia in a more naturalistic environment, which were previously not possible to identify otherwise. The findings could provide key advances to the research of microglia during natural sleep and wakefulness, as opposed to anesthesia. The main findings of the paper are that microglia increase their process motility and surveillance during REM and NREM sleep as compared to the awake state. The authors further show that sleep deprivation induces opposite changes in microglia dynamics- limiting their surveillance and size. The authors then demonstrate potential causal role for norepinephrine secretion from the locus coeruleus (LC) which is driven by beta 2 adrenergic receptors (b2AR) on microglia. However, there are several methodological and experimental concerns which should be addressed.

      The major comments are summarized below:

      1. The main technological advantage of the 2p miniaturized microscope is the ability to track single cells over sleep cycles. A main question that is unclear from the analysis and the way the data is presented is: are the structural changes in microglia reversible? Meaning, could the authors provide evidence that the same cell can dynamically change in sleep state and then return to similar size in wakefulness? The same question arises again with the data which is presented for anesthesia, is this change reversible?

      As revealed by long-term free behavioral mTPM imaging, the brain-statedependent morphological changes in microglia were reproducible and reversible. Author response image 2 shows that microglia displayed reversible dynamic changes during multiple rounds of sleep-wake transition. Author response image 3 shows that microglia dynamics induced by anesthesia also exhibited reversibility.

      Author response image 2.

      Long-term tracking of microglia process area in different brain states. Data analysis used 8 cells. Data total of 31 time points were selected from in vivo imaging data and were used to characterize the morphological changes of microglia over a continuous 7-hour period.

      Author response image 3.

      Reversible changes of microglial process length, area, number of branch points under anesthesia. Wake group: 30 minute-accommodation to new environment; Isoflurane group: 1.5% in air applied at a flow rate of 0.4 L/min for 30 minutes; Recovery group: 30 minutes after recovery from anesthesia. n = 9 cells from 3 mice for each group.

      1. The binary comparison between brain states is misleading, shouldn't the changes in structural dynamics compared to the baseline of the state onset? The authors method describes analysis of the last 5 minutes in each sleep/wake state. However, these transitions are directional- for instance, REM usually follows NREM, so the description of a decrease in length during REM sleep could be inaccurate.

      As you know, the time scale of microglia morphological dynamic is relatively slow, so we analyzed the microglia morphological dynamic of the last part (30s in the revised manuscript) of each state instead of the state onset, allowing time for stabilization of the microglia response to inter-state transition.

      Further, we compared microglia dynamic between two NREM groups transiting to different subsequent states: group1 (NREM to REM) vs group2 (NREM to Wake). This precaution was to exclude the directional effect of state transitions. Our results showed that there was no difference in microglial length, area, number of branching points between the two NREM groups (Author response image 4), indicating that the last 30s of each NREM was not affected by its following state and that it’s reasonable to perform binary comparison.

      Author response image 4.

      Microglial morphological length, area change, and number of branch points of the last 30s of NREM sleep followed by REM or Wake. n = 9 cells from 3 mice for each group.

      1. Sleep deprivation- again, it is unclear whether these structural changes are reversible. This point is straightforward to address using this methodology by measuring sleep following SD. In addition, the authors chose a method to induce sleep deprivation that is rather harsh. It is unclear if the effect shown is the result of stress or perhaps an excess of motor activity.

      We adopted the method of forced exercise as it has been commonly used for sleep deprivation (Pandi-Perumal et al., 2007; Nollet M et al., 2020), though it does have the potential limitation of excess of motor activity.

      In light of your comments and suggestion, we presented new data demonstrating that sleep duration of the mice, mostly NREM sleep, increased compensatively (ZT9-10) after the 6-hour sleep deprivation (ZT2-8) (revised Fig. S3B). This result shows that sleep deprivation indeed increase sleep pressure in the mice. As the sleep pressure was eased during recovery sleep, morphological changes of microglia were reversed over a timescale of several hours (revised Fig. S3 E-J).

      1. The authors perform measurements of norepinephrine with a recently developed GRAB sensor. These experiments are performed to causally link microglia surveillance during sleep to norepinephrine secretion. They perform 2p imaging and collect data points which are single neurons, and it is unclear why the normalization and analysis is performed for bulk fluorescence similar to data obtained with photometry.

      We did not perform single-neuron analysis for two reasons. First, our experimental conditions, e.g., the expression of the NE indicator and the control of imaging laser intensity, did not yield sufficient signal-to-noise to clearly discriminate individual neurons with two-photon imaging. Second, NE signal may play a modulatory role, and fluorescence changes appeared to be global, rather than local or cell-specific. Therefore, we analyzed fluorescence changes in different brain states over the whole field-of-view in Fig. 4, rather than at the subregional or single-cell level.

      1. The experiments involving b2AR KO mice are difficult to interpret and do not provide substantial mechanistic insight. Since b2AR are expressed throughout numerous cell types in the brain and in the periphery, it is entirely not clear whether the effects on microglia dynamics are direct. The conclusion and the statement regarding the expression of b2AR in microglia is not supported by the references the authors present, which simply demonstrate the existence and function of b2AR in microglia. In addition, these mice show significant changes in sleep pattern and increased REM sleep. This could account for reasons for the changes in microglia structure rather than the interpretation that these are direct effects.

      To summarize, the main conclusions of the paper require further support with analysis of existing data and experimental validation.

      Previous studies have revealed that norepinephrine (NE) has a modulating effect on microglial dynamics through β2AR pathway (Stowell RD et al., 2019; Liu YU et al., 2019). Stowell et al. and Liu et al. use in vivo two-photon imaging to demonstrate that microglia dynamics differ between awake and anesthetized mice and to highlight the roles of NE and β2AR in these states (Gyoneva S et al., 2013; Stowell RD et al., 2019; Liu YU et al., 2019). To evaluate the direct effect of β2AR on microglial dynamics, Stowell et al. administered the β2AR agonist clenbuterol to anesthetized mice and found that this decreased the motility, arbor complexity, and process coverage of microglia in the parenchyma (Stowell RD et al., 2019). Inhibition of β2AR by antagonist ICI-118,551 in awake mice recapitulated the effects of anesthesia by enhancing microglial arborization and surveillance (Stowell RD et al., 2019). In addition, it has been shown microglia expressed higher numbers of β2ARs than any other cells in the brain (Zhang et al., 2014).

      To this end, our current work provided new evidence to support the involvement of the LC-NE-β2AR axis in modulating microglia dynamics both during natural sleep-wake cycle and under SD stress. While we were aware the limitation of using pan-tissue β2AR knockout model that precluded us from pinpointing role of microglial β2AR, it is safe to state that β2-adrenergic receptor signaling plays a significant role in the sleep-state dependent microglia dynamic surveillance, based on the present and previous data.

      We have discussed this in the revised manuscript. Please see line 324-354. As you suggested, we added references to support the statement regarding the expression of β2AR in microglia (please see line 333).

      Recommendations for the authors: please note that you control which, if any, revisions, to undertake

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Some technical details need to be clarified. Also, please double-check for typos.

      1. In vivo imaging preparation: how long is the recovery time between window/EEG implantation surgery and imaging/recording?

      Imaging data were collected one month after the surgery. We have added descriptions to the methods section of the revised manuscript. Please see line 419.

      1. Statistical analysis: the authors used t-test or ANOVA without first checking whether the data pass the normality test. If the data does not follow a normal distribution, nonparametric tests would be more appropriate.

      Per your suggestion, we performed the test of statistical significance using parametric (ANOVA) if past the normality test, or the non-parametric (Friedman) tests for non-normal data. Please see line 533-535.

      1. Fig. 1b needs a minor change. In the figure, the EMG electrodes appear to be connected to the brain as well.

      We have corrected this oversight. Thank you.

      1. Fig. 1c: it would be helpful to give examples of raw EEG and EMG traces for REM and NREM separately.

      Raw traces are now shown as suggested. Please see Fig. 1c, page 32.

      1. Fig. 1h: is each data point one microglia or one end-point?

      In Fig. 1h, each data represents the average speed of all branches of one microglia, not one end-point.

      1. Sleep deprivation starts at 9 am. What time corresponds to Zeitgeber Time 0 (ZT0, the beginning of the light phase)?

      We now clarified that 9 am corresponds to Zeitgeber time 2. Please see line 196.

      1. Line 61: the authors referred to Ramon y Cajal's original suggestion that microglia dynamics are coupled to the sleep-wake cycle. However, the cited paper only indicates that Cajal suggested a role of astrocytes in the sleep-wake cycle, not microglia. In addition, there is a typo in the line: there should be a space between "Ramon" and "y" in Cajal's name.

      We have updated the statement and reference literature to point out the microglia’s involvement in the sleep-wake cycle. The typo was corrected. Please see line 64-65.

      1. Fig. S3B: As each group has only 3 mice, it is unclear how t-test can yield p < 0.01 or even 0.001.

      We checked the original data again and it was correct. This small p-values may be due to the small intra-group difference of control group.

      1. Line 251-253, "Figure 4h-n" should be "Figure 5h-n"?

      We have revised it. Please see line 265-266.

      1. Fig. 5h: the receptor should be "adrenergic receptor", not "adrenal receptor".

      We changed the term to “adrenergic receptor”. Please see Fig 5h.

      1. Fig. 5g, n: the number of data points is apparently less than the sample size given in the figure legend. Perhaps some data points have exactly the same value so they overlap? The authors may consider plotting identical values with a slight shift so that the number of data points shown matches the actual sample size, to avoid confusion.

      Yes, we have added small jitters so different data points can be seen to avoid confusion. Please see Fig. 5n.

      1. There are some typos (e.g., Line 217, "he" should be "the") and some incomplete references (e.g., [13], [22], [34], [35] lack volume and page number, [15] and [39] lack publisher information). Some references have inconsistent formats (e.g., "Journal of Neuroscience" is sometimes abbreviated and sometimes not). Please correct these.

      We have corrected these oversights. Please see references, page 27.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Major issues:

      1. Re-analyze the data in a manner that allows to follow and compare the same cells over different state transitions. This is necessary to evaluate the reversibility of microglia structure. In addition, consider analysis of the change from the beginning to the end of each state.

      As shown in response figure 2, microglia dynamics were reversible during multiple rounds of sleep-wake transition.

      1. It would be nice to see the raw data obtained over time, at least for Figure 1, before offline correction of movement to evaluate the imaging quality and level of drift during imaging.

      We agree to your good suggestion. Please see the supporting material video.

      1. It would be helpful to add an analysis of the percent time spent in each state for the 10 hour recordings.

      Advice has been adopted. Please see revised Fig. S4C.

      1. In Figure 2 the results are from 15 cells from several animals. How much do the results vary between mice? It will be helpful to show if this varies between different mice by labeling cells from each mouse differently.

      In Author response image 5, in which we have labeled the distribution of data points from seven mice, there was mixed distribution of data from different animals at each brain state, but no clear animal-to-animal difference.

      Author response image 5.

      Quantitative analysis of microglial length based on multi-plane microglial imaging. n = 17 cells from 7 mice for each group. In right panel, each color codes data from the same animal.

      1. SD- please add some quantification for sleep and EEG to show that the manipulation really caused sleep deprivation. To address the confound of forced movement and stress, it might be helpful to add quantification of movement compared to an undisturbed wakefulness.

      We have added related data (revised Fig. S3B), as suggested. Please see line 196-197.

      1. The DSP4 application should be also performed with NE measurements to verify the specific of the NE signal measured as well as the DSP4 toxin.

      Following your suggestion, we have added DSP4 data in revised Fig. S4B.

      1. Some suggested refined experiments for the b2AR KO are: a-A conditional b2AR KO in microglia, as cited in the work. b- Local application of a b2 blocker during SD. c- Imaging of NE dynamics in the b2 animals. If NE dynamics during natural sleep cycle are perturbed, then this suggests upstream mechanisms rather than direct microglia effects as suggested by the authors.

      We agree that the current study cannot pinpoint a direct effect of microglia harbored β2AR. We have discussed this limitation in the revised manuscript.

      Please see line 324-354.

      Minor:

      1. Typo on page 4 (microcopy instead of microscopy).

      It was corrected. Please see line 87.

      1. Typo page 11- 'and he largest changes in NE' - supposed to be 'the'.

      We have corrected these mistakes. Please see line 228.

      1. Fig. 4- there are several units missing in the figure in panel b: the top is Hz, but what does the color bar indicate exactly? 2 what? both for theta/delta and for NE. We have modified this figure and legend for clarity. Please see Fig. 4, page 37.

      2. Bottom of page 12- referring to figure 4 but talking about figure 5.

      The typo was corrected. Please see line 265-266.

      Reference

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      3. Brécier A, Borel M, Urbain N, Gentet LJ. Vigilance and behavioral state-dependent modulation of cortical neuronal activity throughout the sleep/wake cycle. J Neurosci. 42, 4852–66 (2022).

      4. Dworak M, McCarley RW, Kim T, Kalinchuk AV, Basheer R. Sleep and brain energy levels: ATP changes during sleep. J Neurosci. 30, 9007-16 (2010).

      5. Gyoneva S., Traynelis SF. Norepinephrine modulates the motility of resting and activated microglia via different adrenergic receptors. J Biol Chem. 288, 15291302 (2013).

      6. Kjaerby C, Andersen M, Hauglund N, Untiet V, Dall C, Sigurdsson B, Ding F, Feng J, Li Y, Weikop P, Hirase H, Nedergaard M. Memory-enhancing properties of sleep depend on the oscillatory amplitude of norepinephrine. Nat Neurosci. 25, 1059–1070 (2022).

      7. Liu T, Lu J, Lukasiewicz K, Pan B, Zuo Y. Stress induces microglia-associated synaptic circuit alterations in the dorsomedial prefrontal cortex. Neurobiology of Stress. 15, 100342 (2021).

      8. Liu YU, Ying Y, Li Y, Eyo UB, Chen T, Zheng J, Umpierre AD, Zhu J, Bosco DB, Dong H, Wu LJ. Neuronal network activity controls microglial process surveillance in awake mice via norepinephrine signaling. Nat Neurosci. 22, 1771–1781 (2019).

      9. Nollet M, Wisden W, Franks NP. Sleep deprivation and stress: a reciprocal relationship. Interface Focus. 10, 20190092 (2020).

      10. Pandi-Perumal SR, Cardinali DP, Chrousos GP. 2007. Neuroimmunology of sleep. New York, NY: Springer.

      11. Peng W, Liu X, Ma G, Wu Z, Wang Z, Fei X, Qin M, Wang L, Li Y, Zhang S, Xu M. Adenosine-independent regulation of the sleep-wake cycle by astrocyte activity. Cell Discov. 9, 16 (2023).

      12. Peng W, Wu Z, Song K, Zhang S, Li Y, Xu M. Regulation of sleep homeostasis mediator adenosine by basal forebrain glutamatergic neurons. Science. 369, 6508 (2020).

      13. Rasmussen K, Morilak DA, Jacobs BL. Single unit activity of locus coeruleus neurons in the freely moving cat: I. During naturalistic behaviors and in response to simple and complex stimuli. Brain Research. 371, 324–334 (1986).

      14. Stowell RD, Sipe GO, Dawes RP, Batchelor HN, Lordy KA, Whitelaw BS, Stoessel MB, Bidlack JM, Brown E, Sur M, Majewska AK. Noradrenergic signaling in the wakeful state inhibits microglial surveillance and synaptic plasticity in the mouse visual cortex. Nat Neurosci. 22, 1782-1792 (2019).

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The paper proposes an interesting perspective on the spatio-temporal relationship between FC in fMRI and electrophysiology. The study found that while similar network configurations are found in both modalities, there is a tendency for the networks to spatially converge more commonly at synchronous than asynchronous time points. However, my confidence in the findings and their interpretation is undermined by an apparent lack of justification for the expected outcomes for each of the proposed scenarios, and in the analysis pipeline itself.

      Main Concerns

      (1) Figure 1 makes sense to me conceptually, including the schematics of the trajectories, i.e.

      Scenario 1: Temporally convergent, same trajectories through connectome state space

      Scenario 2: Temporally divergent, different trajectories through connectome state space

      However, based on my understanding I am concerned that these scenarios do not necessarily translate into the schematic CRP plots shown in Figure 2C, or the statements in the main text:

      For Scenario 1: "epochs of cross-modal spatial similarity should occur more frequently at on-diagonal (synchronous) than off-diagonal (asynchronous) entries, resulting in an on-/off-diagonal ratio larger than unity"

      For Scenario 2: "epochs of spatial similarity could occur equally likely at on-diagonal and off-diagonal entries (ratio≈1)"

      Where do the authors get these statements and the schematics in Figure 2C from? Are they based on previous literature, theory, or simulations?

      I am not convinced based on the evidence currently in the paper, that the ratio of off- to on-diagonal entries (and under what assumptions) is a definitive way to discriminate between scenarios 1 and 2.

      For example, what about the case where the same network configuration reoccurs in both modalities at multiple time points? It seems to me that one would get a CRP with entries occurring equally on the on-diagonal as on the off-diagonal, regardless of whether the dynamics are matched between the two modalities or not (i.e. regardless of scenario 1 or 2 being true).

      This thought experiment example might have a flaw in it, and the authors might ultimately be correct, but nonetheless, a systematic justification needs to be provided for using the ratio of off- to on-diagonal entries to discriminate between scenarios 1 and 2 (and under what assumptions it is valid).

      In the absence of theory, a couple of ways I can think of to gain insight into this key aspect are:

      (1) Use surrogate data for scenarios 1 and 2:

      a. For scenario 1: Run the CRP using a single modality. E.g. feed in the EEG into the analysis as both modality 1 AND modality 2. This should provide at least one example of CRP under scenario 1 (although it does not ensure that all CRPs under this scenario will look like this, it is at least a useful sanity check)

      b. For scenario 2: Run the CRP using a single modality plus a shuffled version. E.g. feed in the EEG into the analysis as both modality 1 AND a temporally shuffled version of the EEG as modality 2. The temporal shuffling of the EEG could be done by simply splitting the data into blocks of say ~10s and then shuffling them into a new order. This should provide a version of the CRP under scenario 2 (although it does not ensure that all CRPs under this scenario will look like this, it is at least a useful sanity check).

      (2) Do simulations, with clearly specified assumptions, for scenarios 1 and 2. One way of doing this is to use a simplified (state-space) setup and randomly simulate N spatially fixed networks that are independently switching on and off over time (i.e. "activation" is 0 or 1). Note that this would result in a N-dimensional connectome state space.

      The authors would only need to worry about simulating the network activation time courses, i.e. they would not need to bother with specifying the spatial configuration of each network, instead, they would make the implied assumption that each of these networks has the same spatial configuration in modality 1 and modality 2.

      With that assumption, the CRP calculation should simply correspond to calculating, at each time i in modality 1 and time j in modality 2, the number of networks that are activating in both modality 1 and modality 2, by using their activation time courses. Using this, one can simulate and compute the CRPs for the two scenarios:

      a. Scenario 1: where the simulated activation timecourses are set to be the same between both modalities

      b. Scenario 2: where the simulated activation timecourses are simulated separately for each of the modalities

      We thank the reviewer for raising this important matter as it directly relates to our study hypothesis. To address this point, we chose to focus on the first of the two alternative suggestions of the reviewer, as it provides evidence based on empirical data. In line with the reviewer’s suggestion 1, recurrence plots have indeed been previously applied to connectome dynamics data from the same modality [Hansen et al., NeuroImage 2015; Fig. 2B]. As shown in the referenced study, where the recurrence plot has been estimated within fMRI connectome dynamics, the on-diagonal entries have noticeably larger correlation values in comparison to off-diagonal entries. As the authors state, this contrast emphasizes the autocorrelation of connectome dynamics in their single modality recurrence plot. Extending these findings to our cross-modal recurrence plots, more synchronicity of connectome dynamics across fMRI and EEG will -by theory- translate into stronger correlation values along the diagonal axis as it represents neighboring timepoints in the data. On the other hand, less cross-modal synchronicity translates to a lack of such correlation prevalence along the diagonal axis.

      Complementing these statements with empirical data, Author response image 1 shows the fMRI-to-iEEG and fMRI-to-fMRI CRPs side by side as suggested by the reviewer. For simplicity, we thresholded each CRP at the top 5% of entries and calculated their corresponding on-/off-diagonal ratios. The on/off-diagonal ratio for fMRI-to-fMRI CRP was 4.32 ± 6.26 across -5 to +5 TR lags (with a maximum of 16.56 at a lag of one TR), while this value was 1.00 ± 0.31 for fMRI-to-iEEG CRP. Thus, it becomes apparent that synchronicity of connectome dynamics directly translates to the on-/off-diagonal ratio in CRP.

      Author response image 1.

      Sample CRP shown for a subject for comparing two cases: fMRI-to-iEEG (left) and fMRI-to-fMRI (right). The comparison shows that in the presence of genuine synchronous connectome dynamics, as expected for the within-molality case (right panel), the on-/off-diagonal ratio is expected to show noticeably higher values. This figure establishes a strong link between our proposed metric of on-/off-diagonal ratio and the extent of synchronicity of connectome dynamics.

      Author response image 2.

      On-/off-diagonal ratio in the fMRI-to-fMRI recurrence plot is considerably higher than the cross-modal fMRI-to-iEEG case. Horizontal axis shows the lag where the metric was calculated in the CRP. The bars reflect the group average metric while the whickers show standard deviation. Note that for the within-modality case, ratio is not defined at lag zero because of identical connectome frames.

      (2) Choices in the analysis pipeline leading up to the computation of FC in fMRI or EEG will affect the quality of information available in the FC. For example, but not only, the choice of parcellation (in the study, the number of parcels is very high given the number of EEG sensors). I think it is important that we see the impact of the chosen pipeline on the time-averaged connectomes, an output that the field has some idea about what is sensible. This would give confidence that the information being used in the main analyses in the paper is based on a sensible footing and relates to what the field is used to thinking about in terms of FC. This should be trivial to compute, as it is just a case of averaging the time-varying FCs being used for the CRP over all time points. Admittedly, this approach is less useful for the intracranial EEG.

      We agree with the reviewer on ensuring that the time-averaged FC aligns with expectations of the field and prior work. For this reason, our supplementary analysis already included an analysis that replicates the well-established (albeit modest) spatial similarity between fMRI static connectome and EEG/iEEG static connectomes:

      “In scalp EEG-fMRI data, cross-modal spatial (2D) Pearson correlation of group-level time-averaged connectomes between fMRI and EEG-FCAmp or fMRI and EEG-FCPhase were calculated across all frequency bands. The average spatial correlation value across frequency bands r = 0.28 and r = 0.28 for EEG-FCAmp and EEG-FCPhase, respectively. The spatial correlation values across all frequency bands and connectivity measures were significantly higher than the corresponding null distributions generated by phase-permuted group-level fMRI-FC spatial organization (p<0.005; 200 repetitions; FDR-corrected at q<0.05 for the number of frequency bands). …. Of note, the small effect sizes are strongly in line with prior literature (Hipp and Siegel, 2015; Wirsich et al., 2017; Betzel et al., 2019) and may point to possible divergence in the dynamic domain as investigated in the main manuscript.”

      This replication directly confirms the validity of our selected atlas for further investigations into the connectome dynamics. We acknowledge that with 64 EEG channels, one can only estimate a relatively coarse connectome. Among the well-known coarse atlases, we chose the Desikan-Killiany atlas as it is based on anatomical features, eliminating possible biases towards a particular functional data modality. Moreover, this atlas has been commonly used for multimodal functional connectivity studies, facilitating the confirmation of prior findings in the time-averaged domain [Deligianni et al. Front. Neurosci 2104, Wirsich et al. NeuroImage, 2020, Wirsich et al., NeuroImage 2021].

      (3) Leakage correction. The paper states: "To mitigate this issue, we provide results from source-localized data both with and without leakage correction (supplementary and main text, respectively)." Given that FC in EEG is dominated by spatial leakage (see Hipp paper), then I cannot see how it can be justified to look at non-spatial leakage correction results at all, let alone put them up front as the main results. All main results/figures for the scalp EEG should be done using spatial leakage-corrected EEG data.

      We agree that relying on leakage-uncorrected scalp EEG alone would be problematic. It is for this reason that the intracranial data constructs the core of our results, emphasizing that the observed multiplex architecture of connectomes is indeed present in the absence of source leakage. Only when this finding is established in the intracranial EEG, do we provide the scalp EEG data as a generalization to whole-cortex coverage connectomes of healthy subjects. Moreover, it is known that existing source-leakage correction algorithms may inadvertently remove some of the genuine zero-lag connectivity. For instance, Finger and colleagues have shown that the similarity of functional connectivity to structural connectivity diminishes after correction for source-leakage (Finger et. al, PLOS Comp. Biol. 2016). Therefore, we have deliberately chosen to include our generalization findings before source-leakage correction (main text) as well as after source-leakage correction reflecting a more stringent approach (supplementary analysis). Importantly, our conclusions hold true for both before and after source-leakage correction.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The study investigates the brain's functional connectivity (FC) dynamics across different timescales using simultaneous recordings of intracranial EEG/source-localized EEG and fMRI. The primary research goal was to determine which of three convergence/divergence scenarios is the most likely to occur.

      The results indicate that despite similar FC patterns found in different data modalities, the time points were not aligned, indicating spatial convergence but temporal divergence.

      The researchers also found that FC patterns in different frequencies do not overlap significantly, emphasizing the multi-frequency nature of brain connectivity. Such asynchronous activity across frequency bands supports the idea of multiple connectivity states that operate independently and are organized into a multiplex system.

      Strengths:

      The data supporting the authors' claims are convincing and come from simultaneous recordings of fMRI and iEEG/EEG, which has been recently developed and adapted.

      The analysis methods are solid and involve a novel approach to analyzing the co-occurrence of FC patterns across modalities (cross-modal recurrence plot, CRP) and robust statistics, including replication of the main results using multiple operationalizations of the functional connectome (e.g., amplitude, orthogonalized, and phase-based coupling).

      In addition, the authors provided a detailed interpretation of the results, placing them in the context of recent advances and understanding of the relationships between functional connectivity and cognitive states.

      Weaknesses:

      Despite the impressive work, the paper still lacks some analyses to make it complete.

      Firstly, the effect of the window size is unclear, especially in the case of different frequencies where the number of cycles that fall in a window will vary drastically. A typical oscillation lasts just a few cycles (see Myrov et al., 2024), and brain states are usually short-lived because of meta-stability (see Roberts et al., 2019).

      We now replicate our results with an additional window size. Please see section “Recommendations for the authors”.

      Secondly, the authors didn't examine frequencies lower than 1Hz despite similarities between fMRI and infra-slow oscillations found in prior literature (see Palva et al., 2014; Zhang et al., 2023).

      We address this issue below. Please see section “Recommendations for the authors”.

      On a minor note, the phase-locking value (PLV) is positively biased for EEG data (see Palva et al., 2018) and a different metric for phase coupling could be a more appropriate choice (e.g., iPLV/wPLI, see Vinck et al., 2011).

      While iPLV and wPLI are not positively biased, they may reduce genuine zero-phase connectivity as they were initially designed to address spurious zero-phase connectivity from source leakage in scalp EEG. Indeed, PLV connectivity is shown to be more strongly correlated with structural connectivity than wPLI and other phase coupling methods [Finger et al., PLOS Comp. Biol. 2016], emphasizing that it contains genuine connectivity that may be lacking when zero-phase connectivity is removed. We chose PLV because it is a widely used functional connectivity metric, particularly in intracranial data where source leakage is not a critical concern. Thus, using PLV facilitates cross-study comparisons including to our prior work [e.g. Mostame et al. NeuroImage 2020, Mostame et al. J Neurosci 2021].

      The repository with the code is also unavailable.

      Thank you for bringing this to our attention. We have now made our repository publicly accessible at: https://github.com/connectlab/Mostame2024_Multiplex_iEEG_fMRI.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The window widths used to compute FC as a function of time are an important aspect, so I feel that this should be briefly described up-front in the main Results text.

      Methods. "Finally, to compensate for the time lag between hemodynamic and neural responses of the brain (Logothetis et al., 2001), we shifted the fMRI-FC time course 6 seconds backwards in time." What about the effects of temporal blurring from the HRF? Do we need to care about that?

      We agree with the importance to investigate the effect if temporal blurring of the HRF. The main text already included a replication of findings from CRPs generated using fMRI data and EEG amplitude signals convolved with the canonical HRF. This method serves as an alternative to the 6-second shifting. Both approaches produced similar results.

      Methods. In fMRI connectome computation it is common to look at partial correlation rather than full correlation. Partial correlation focuses more on direct connections. It would be good if the paper acknowledged and justified why it is OK to use full correlation.

      We have now added a brief explanation in this regard in the main text (Methods section) as follows:

      “In fMRI connectome computation, some prior work has used partial correlation instead of full correlation. Partial correlation emphasizes direct connections by calculating correlation between any pair of bran regions after regressing out the timeseries of all other regions. However, we have opted to use full correlation because this permits interpretation of our outcomes in the context of the vast existing literature that uses full correlations in fMRI including the majority of bimodal (EEG-fMRI) connectome studies (e.g. Tagliazucchi et al., 2012; Deligianni et al., 2014; Wirsich et al., 2017b, 2020, 2021; Allen et al., 2018).”

      The paper should relate the results to findings showing clear links between simultaneously recorded EEG and fMRI beyond FC. E.g. Mantini (PNAS) 2007 and Van De Ville (PNAS) 2010 to name two.

      In line with this important point, we have extended the existing discussion section that compares our outcomes to EEG-fMRI beyond functional connectivity:

      “Prior multi-modal studies of neural dynamics have predominantly aimed at methodologically cross-validating hemodynamic and electrophysiological observations, thus focusing on their convergence. These important foundational studies include e.g., the cross-modal comparison of region-wise (Mukamel et al., 2005; Nir et al., 2007) or ICN-wise (Mantini et al., 2007) activity fluctuations, instantaneous activity maps (Hunyadi et al., 2019; Zhang et al., 2020) or EEG microstates (Van de Ville 2010), infraslow connectome states (Abreu et al., 2020), or connection-wise FC including studies in the iEEG-fMRI and scalp EEG-fMRI data used in the current study (Ridley et al., 2017; and Wirsich et al., 2020, respectively). In contrast to this prior work, the current study investigated the highly time-resolved cross-modal temporal relationship at the level of FC patterns distributed over all available pairwise connections, and found a connectome-level temporal divergence. The discrepancy between temporal divergence in our study and convergence in prior studies implies that infraslow fluctuations of activity in individual regions or of FC in individual region-pairs observable in both modalities (prior studies) are neurally distinct from connectome-wide FC dynamics observable separately in each modality (current study). Indeed, we confirmed the existence of infraslow electrophysiological FC dynamics driving cross-modal temporal associations at the level of individual connections (Fig. S3) …”

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Check different window sizes and stability of the FC patterns as a function of it.

      We thank the reviewer for the helpful feedback. We agree that the window size could possibly affect the estimation of individual connectome frames, particularly given that neural processes unfold at hundreds of milliseconds rather than seconds. However, we expect that the asynchronous nature of cross-modal convergence observed in our data would remain intact regardless of the specific window length used for FC calculations. To confirm this, we replicated some of our main analyses in the iEEG-fMRI data with a window length of 500ms (as opposed to 3s, equivalent to one TR) as follows:

      First, we showed that changing the window length does not substantially impact the overall architecture of the connectomes (Author response image 3). Particularly, the time-averaged connectome patterns across different frequency bands were all strongly correlated between the two analyses (500ms and 3s window lengths).

      Author response image 3.

      Time-averaged connectome patterns are highly replicable when calculated using 3s or 500ms window lengths. Horizontal axis represents frequency bands, while each dot represents a subject. Vertical axis shows 2D Pearson correlation of the two connectomes. The group average within each frequency band is marked by a horizontal line.

      Second, we replicated our major findings of CRP and its on-/off-diagonal ratio in the iEEG-fMRI dataset using a window length of 500ms for FC calculations. Indeed, the data does not show a substantial difference in the on-/off-diagonal ratios of the CRP entries between the 3s and 500ms window lengths. Specifically, the ratio was equal to 1.02 ± 0.07 for 500ms window length, emphasizing absence of significant temporal convergence of the connectome dynamics (see Author response image 4). A paired t-test between group-averaged ratios across different lags confirms a lack of significant difference between the two analyses (p= 0.50). This finding further emphasizes the genuine asynchronous nature of connectome dynamics across the neural timescales measured in fMRI and electrophysiology. We have added this analysis to the supplementary data.

      Author response image 4.

      On-/off-diagonal ratio is shown across lags for both analyses: 3s window length (blue) and 500ms window length (red). Each bar shows the mean across subjects, while the whiskers show the corresponding standard deviations.

      (2) Try to decrease the lowest frequency of the analysis below 1Hz or just compute it for multiple log-spaced frequencies from infra-slow delta to high-gamma band.

      Thank you for pointing out this matter. We do not expect considerable signal in the frequency range below the current lower bound of delta (1Hz) because as in most other EEG recordings, EEG was not recorded in DC setting and has a hardware high-pass filter of 0.1Hz. Nonetheless, we investigated the power spectral density of our iEEG-fMRI data and found that there is indeed little signal power left in the available infraslow range [0.5 – 1 Hz] after the preprocessing steps (Author response image 5).

      Author response image 5.

      Power spectral density of all subjects in the fMRI-iEEG dataset shows lack of sufficient power in the infraslow range. Infraslow range signals are almost always filtered out during recording unless the recording setup includes a DC amplifier. The infraslow signal of EEG that is often considered correlated with the fMRI signals in the literature most commonly are extracted from the slow-changing envelope of the bandlimited signals, like envelope of gamma oscillations.

      Accordingly, when the iEEG signals are filtered within the range of [0.5, 1], there is little signal variation observed in the signal timeseries, contrasting the adjacent delta band signal (Author response image 6). Importantly, the power envelope of the delta band (and all other canonical bands not shown here) comprise major fluctuations in the infraslow range, as expected. We would like to emphasize that the existing studies addressing infraslow EEG signal dynamics typically consider the infraslow envelope fluctuations of band-limited signals in traditional frequency bands [e.g. Nir et. al, Nat Neurosci 2008] rather than direct recordings in the infraslow frequency range. Investigating HRF-convolved EEG signals similarly captures the infraslow characteristics of the timeseries [e.g. Mantini et al. PNAS 2007, Sadaghiani et al., J Neurosci 2010] (and note that HRF-convolved analyses are included as supplementary investigation in the current study). To the best of our knowledge, very few studies have investigated direct infraslow EEG signals using DC EEG, and we are aware of only two DC-EEG studies with concurrent fMRI [Hiltunen et al., J Neurosci 2014, Grooms et al., Brain Connectivity 2017]. The infraslow correlates of fMRI in electrophysiological signals reported in prior work therefore reflect the slow changes in faster activity or connectivity of traditional frequency bands, which is indeed already included in the current study.

      Author response image 6.

      Sample timeseries of the iEEG signal of the nine subjects (nine rows) for a 400 second interval. Blue signals show the bandlimited delta with its envelope shown as darker blue. The red signal represents the infraslow signal component left in the data, which is much lower in power.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Ritvo and colleagues present an impressive suite of simulations that can account for three findings of differentiation in the literature. This is important because differentiation-in which items that have some features in common, or share a common associate are less similar to one another than are unrelated items-is difficult to explain with classic supervised learning models, as these predict the opposite (i.e., an increase in similarity). A few of their key findings are that differentiation requires a high learning rate and low inhibitory oscillations, and is virtually always asymmetric in nature.

      This paper was very clear and thoughtful-an absolute joy to read. The model is simple and elegant, and powerful enough to re-create many aspects of existing differentiation findings. The interrogation of the model and presentation of the findings were both extremely thorough. The potential for this model to be used to drive future work is huge. I have only a few comments for the authors, all of which are relatively minor.

      (1) I was struck by the fact that the "zone" of repulsion is quite narrow, compared with the zone of attraction. This was most notable in the modeling of Chanales et al. (i.e., just one of the six similarity levels yielded differentiation). Do the authors think this is a generalizable property of the model or phenomenon, or something idiosyncratic to do with the current investigation? It seems curious that differentiation findings (e.g., in hippocampus) are so robustly observed in the literature despite the mechanism seemingly requiring a very particular set of circumstances. I wonder if the authors could speculate on this point a bit-for example, might the differentiation zone be wider when competitor "pop up" is low (i.e., low inhibitory oscillations), which could help explain why it's often observed in hippocampus? This seems related a bit to the question about what makes something "moderately" active, or how could one ensure "moderate" activation if they were, say, designing an experiment looking at differentiation.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. In the previous version of the manuscript, in the section entitled “Differentiation Requires a High Learning Rate and Is Sensitive to Activation Dynamics”, we discussed some reasons why differentiation may be more likely to be found in the hippocampus – namely, the high learning rate of the hippocampus and the sparsity of hippocampal activation patterns (pp. 27-28):

      “These results have implications for where to look for differentiation in the brain. Our finding that differentiation requires a high learning rate suggests that differentiation will be more evident in the hippocampus than in neocortex, insofar as hippocampus is thought to have a higher learning rate than neocortex (McClelland et al., 1995). In keeping with this prediction, numerous studies have found differentiation effects in hippocampus but not in neocortical regions involved in sensory processing (e.g., Chanales et al., 2017; Favila et al., 2016; Zeithamova et al., 2018). At the same time, some studies have found differentiation effects in neocortex (e.g., Schlichting et al., 2015; Wammes et al., 2022). One possible explanation of these neocortical differentiation effects is that they are being ``propped up’’ by top-down feedback from differentiated representations in the hippocampus. This explanation implies that disruptions of hippocampal processing (e.g., lesions, stimulation) will eliminate these neocortical differentiation effects; we plan to test this prediction in future work.

      Additionally, the simulations where we adjusted the oscillation amount (using our model of Schlichting et al., 2015) imply that differentiation will be most evident in brain regions where it is relatively hard to activate competitors. Given the U shape of the NMPH learning rule, limiting competitor activity makes it less likely that plasticity will ``cross over'' from weakening (and differentiation) to strengthening (and integration). Thus, within the hippocampus, subregions with sparser activity (e.g., dentate gyrus, and to a lesser extent, CA3; Barnes et al., 1990, GoodSmith et al., 2017; West et al., 1991) will be more prone to differentiation. There is strong empirical support for this prediction. For example, Wammes et al. (2022) manipulated the similarity of stimuli in a statistical learning experiment and found that moderate levels of visual similarity were associated with significant differentiation in the dentate gyrus but not other subregions. Also, numerous studies have found greater differentiation in dentate gyrus / CA3 than in CA1 (e.g., Dimsdale-Zucker et al., 2018; Wanjia et al., 2021; Molitor et al., 2021; Kim et al., 2017; but see Zheng et al., 2021).”

      In the revised draft we have supplemented this discussion with a new section entitled “Reconciling the Prevalence of Differentiation in the Model and in the Data” (pp. 30-31):

      “A key lesson from our model is that, from a computational perspective, it is challenging to obtain differentiation effects: The region of parameter space that gives rise to differentiation is much smaller than the one that gives rise to integration (for further discussion of this issue, see the section in Methods on Practical Advice for Getting the Model to Show Differentiation). However, the fact that integration is more prevalent in our simulations across parameter configurations does not mean that integration will be more prevalent than differentiation in real-life circumstances. What really matters in predicting the prevalence of differentiation in real life is how the parameters of the brain map on to parameters of the model: If the parameters of the brain align with regions of model parameter space that give rise to differentiation (even if these regions are small), this would explain why differentiation has been so robustly observed in extant studies. Indeed, this is exactly the case that we sought to make above about the hippocampus – i.e., that its use of especially sparse coding and a high learning rate will give rise to the kinds of neural dynamics that cause differentiation (as opposed to integration). As another example, while it is true that half of the overlap conditions in our simulation of Chanales et al. (2021) give rise to integration, this does not imply that integration will occur half of the time in the Chanales et al. (2021) study; it may be that the levels of overlap that are actually observed in the brain in Chanales et al. (2021) are more in line with the levels of overlap that give rise to differentiation in our model.”

      (2) With real fMRI data we know that the actual correlation value doesn't matter all that much, and anti-correlations can be induced by things like preprocessing decisions. I am wondering if the important criterion in the model is that the correlations (e.g., as shown in Figure 6) go down from pre to post, versus that they are negative in sign during the post learning period. I would think that here, similar to in neural data, a decrease in correlation would be sufficient to conclude differentiation, but would love the authors' thoughts on that.

      We thank the reviewer for bringing this up. In the paper, we define differentiation as the moving apart of representations – so we agree with the reviewer that it would be appropriate to conclude that differentiation is taking place when correlations go down from pre to post.

      In addition to the definitional question (“what counts as differentiation”), one can also ask the mechanistic question of what is happening in the model at the (simulated) neuronal level in conditions where differentiation (i.e., an average decrease in similarity from pre to post) occurs. Here, the model’s answer is clear: When the similarity of two pairmates decreases, it is because the pairmates have acquired anticorrelated representations at the (simulated) neuronal level. When similarity decreases on average from pre to post, but the average “post” similarity value is not negative, this is because there is a mix of outcomes across runs of the model (due to variance in the initial, random model weights and also variance in the order in which items are presented across training epochs) – some runs lead to differentiation (manifested as anticorrelated pairmate representations) whereas others lead to no change or integration. The average pre-to-post change depends on the relative frequencies with which these different outcomes occur.

      We have made several edits to the paper to clarify this point.

      We added a new section under “Results” in our simulation of Chanales et al. (2021) entitled, “Pairs of Items that Differentiate Show Anticorrelated Representations” (p. 15):

      “Figure 6B also highlights that, for learning rates where robust differentiation effects occur in aggregate (i.e., there is a reduction in mean pattern similarity, averaging across model runs), these aggregate effects involve a bimodal distribution across model runs: For some model runs, learning processes give rise to anticorrelated representations, and for other model runs the model shows integration; this variance across model runs is attributable to random differences in the initial weight configuration of the model. The aggregate differentiation effect is therefore a function of the proportion of model runs showing differentiation (here, anticorrelation) and the proportion of model runs showing integration. The fact that differentiation shows up as anticorrelation in the model's hidden layer relates to the learning effects discussed earlier:

      Unique competitor units are sheared away from (formerly) shared units, so the competitor ends up not having any overlap with the target representation (i.e., the level of overlap is less than you would expect due to chance, which mathematically translates into anticorrelation). We return to this point and discuss how to test for anticorrelation in the Discussion section.”

      We added new text to the “Take-Home Lessons” section in the Chanales et al. (2021) simulation (p. 17):

      “In particular, the simulations expose some important boundary conditions for when representational change can occur according to the NMPH (e.g., that differentiation depends on a large learning rate, but integration does not), and the simulations provide a more nuanced account of exactly how representations change (e.g., that differentiation driven by the NMPH is always asymmetric, whereas integration is sometimes asymmetric and sometimes symmetric; and that, when differentiation occurs on a particular model run, it tends to give rise to anticorrelated representations in the model's hidden layer).”

      We added new text to the “Nature of Representational Change” section in the Favila et al. (2016) simulation (p. 21):

      “Figure 8 - Supplement 1 also indicates that, as in our simulation of Chanales et al. (2021), individual model runs where differentiation occurs show anticorrelation between the pairmate representations, and gradations in the aggregate level of differentiation that is observed across conditions reflect differences in the proportion of trials showing this anticorrelation effect.”

      We added new text to the “Take-Home Lessons” section in the Favila et al. (2016) simulation (p.21):

      “As in our simulation of \cite{chanales2021adaptive}, we found that the NMPH-mediated differentiation was asymmetric, manifested as anticorrelation between pairmate representations on individual model runs, and required a high learning rate, leading to abrupt representational change.”

      We added new text to the “Nature of Representational Change” section in the Schlichting et al. (2015) simulation (p. 26):

      “Also, as in our other simulations, when differentiation occurs on a particular model run it tends to give rise to anticorrelated representations (results not shown).”

      We added new text to the “Take-Home Lessons” section in the Schlichting et al. (2015) simulation (pp. 26-27):

      “As in the other versions of our model, differentiation requires a high learning rate, and – on model runs when it occurs – it is asymmetric and gives rise to anticorrelated representations.”

      We added new text at the start of the Discussion (p. 27):

      “In addition to qualitatively replicating the results from the studies we simulated, our model gives rise to several novel predictions – most notably, that differentiation driven by the NMPH requires a rapid learning rate and, when it occurs for a particular pair of items, it is asymmetric and gives rise to anticorrelated representations.”

      We also added a new section in the Discussion entitled “Testing the Model's Prediction about Anticorrelation”, which (among other things) highlights the reviewer’s point that fMRI pattern similarity values can be affected by preprocessing choices (p. 30):

      “Even though we operationally define differentiation as a reduction in similarity with learning, the way that it actually shows up on individual model runs is as anticorrelation between pairmates; in the model, the size of the aggregate differentiation effect is determined by the proportion of model runs that show this anticorrelation effect (vs. no change or integration). This implies that, if we could get a clean measurement of the similarity of pairmates in an experiment, we might see a multimodal distribution, with some pairmates showing anticorrelation, and others showing increased correlation (integration) or no change in similarity. This kind of clean readout of the similarity of individual pairs might be difficult to obtain with fMRI; it is more feasible that this could be obtained with electrophysiology. Another challenge with using fMRI to test this prediction is that anticorrelation at the individual-neuron level might not scale up to yield anticorrelation at the level of the BOLD response; also, fMRI pattern similarity values can be strongly affected by preprocessing choices – so a negative pattern similarity value does not necessarily reflect anticorrelation at the individual-neuron level. A final caveat is that, while we predict that differentiation will show up as anticorrelation in the brain region that gives rise to the differentiation effect, this might not translate into anticorrelation in areas that are downstream of this region (e.g., if the hippocampus is the source of the differentiation effect, we would expect anticorrelation there, but not necessarily in neocortical regions that receive input from the hippocampus; we revisit this point later in the discussion, when we address limitations and open questions).”

      We added new text in the Discussion, under “Limitations and Open Questions” (p. 31):

      “Importantly, while hippocampus can boost the representation of unique features in neocortex, we expect that neocortex will continue to represent shared perceptual features (e.g., in Favila et al., 2016, the fact that both pairmates are photos of barns). For this reason, in paradigms like the one used by Favila et al. (2016), the predicted effect of hippocampal differentiation on neocortical representations will be a reduction in pattern similarity (due to upregulation in the representation of unique pairmate features) but neocortex should not cross over into anticorrelation in these paradigms (due to its continued representation of shared perceptual features). Indeed, this is exactly the pattern that Wanjia et al. (2021) observed in their study, which used similar stimuli to those used in Favila et al. (2016).”

      Lastly, we updated the Abstract (p. 1)

      “What determines when neural representations of memories move together (integrate) or apart (differentiate)? Classic supervised learning models posit that, when two stimuli predict similar outcomes, their representations should integrate. However, these models have recently been challenged by studies showing that pairing two stimuli with a shared associate can sometimes cause differentiation, depending on the parameters of the study and the brain region being examined. Here, we provide a purely unsupervised neural network model that can explain these and other related findings. The model can exhibit integration or differentiation depending on the amount of activity allowed to spread to competitors – inactive memories are not modified, connections to moderately active competitors are weakened (leading to differentiation), and connections to highly active competitors are strengthened (leading to integration). The model also makes several novel predictions – most importantly, that when differentiation occurs as a result of this unsupervised learning mechanism, it will be rapid and asymmetric, and it will give rise to anticorrelated representations in the region of the brain that is the source of the differentiation. Overall, these modeling results provide a computational explanation for a diverse set of seemingly contradictory empirical findings in the memory literature, as well as new insights into the dynamics at play during learning.”

      (3) For the modeling of the Favila et al. study, the authors state that a high learning rate is required for differentiation of the same-face pairs. This made me wonder what happens in the low learning rate simulations. Does integration occur?

      For the same-face condition of the Favila simulation, lowering learning rate does not result in an overall integration effect:

      Author response image 1.

      In other cases, we do see integration emerge at lower learning rates – e.g., in the Schlichting interleaved condition we see a small integration effect emerge for a learning rate value of 0.3:

      Author response image 2.

      Our view is that, while integration can emerge at low learning rates, it is not a reliable property of the model – in some cases, there is a “window” of learning rates where there is enough learning to drive integration but not enough to drive differentiation, and in other cases there is not. Given this lack of reliability across simulations, we would prefer not to discuss this in the paper.

      This paradigm has a lot of overlap with acquired equivalence, and so I am thinking about whether these are the sorts of small differences (e.g., same-category scenes and perhaps a high learning rate) that bias the system to differentiate instead of integrate.

      We agree that it would be very interesting to use the model to explore acquired equivalence and related phenomena, but we think it is out of scope of the current paper. We have added some text to the Discussion under “Limitations and Open Questions” (p. 32):

      “Another important future direction is to apply the model to a wider range of learning phenomena involving representational change – for example, acquired equivalence, which (like some of the studies modeled here) involves linking distinct stimuli to a shared associate (see, e.g., Honey and Hall, 1989; Shohamy and Wagner, 2008; Myers et al., 2003; Meeter et al., 2009; de Araujo Sanchez and Zeithamova, 2023). It is possible that some of these phenomena might be better explained by supervised learning, or a mixture of unsupervised and supervised learning, than by unsupervised learning alone.”

      (4) For the simulations of the Schlichting et al. study, the A and B appear to have overlap in the hidden layer based on Figure 9, despite there being no similarity between the A and B items in the study (in contrast to Favila et al., in which they were similar kinds of scenes, and Chanales et al., in which they were similar colors). Why was this decision made? Do the effects depend on some overlap within the hidden layer? (This doesn't seem to be explained in the paper that I saw though, so maybe just it's a visualization error?)

      Overlap in the pretrained hidden representations of A and B is not strictly necessary for these effects – it would be possible to reconfigure other parameters to get high levels of competition even if there were no overlap (e.g., by upregulating the strengths of connections from shared input features). Having said that, it is definitely true that overlap between the pretrained hidden representations boosts competition, and we think it is justified to posit this in the Schlichting simulation. We have now added an explanation for this in the paper (p. 23):

      “New text in Schlichting, “Knowledge Built into the Network”

      Matching the previous two simulations, we pretrained the weights so the hidden representations of the stimuli initially had 2/6 units in common. Even though the A and B stimuli used in the actual experiment did not have obvious feature overlap (they were randomly selected novel objects), it is important to note that the hidden layer is not simply a representation of the sensory features of the A and B stimuli; the hidden layer also receives input from the output layer, which represents the shared associate of A and B (X). We think that the presence of this shared associate justifies our use of initially-overlapping hidden representations.”

      (5) It seems as though there were no conditions under which the simulations produced differentiation in both the blocked and intermixed conditions, which Schlichting et al. observed in many regions (as the present authors note). Is there any way to reconcile this difference?

      We thank the reviewer for bringing this up. If we set the connection strength between X (in the output layer) and A (in the hidden layer) in the blocked condition to .9 instead of .999 (keeping this connection strength at .8 for the interleaved condition) and we set Osc to .0615, we observe differentiation in both conditions.

      Rather than replacing the original results in the paper, which would entail re-making the associated videos, etc., we have added a supplementary figure (Figure 10 - Supplement 1), which is included on p. 46.

      We also added the following to the Results section of the Schlichting simulation in the main text (p. 26):

      “Figure 10 - Supplement 1 shows results from an alternative parameterization where, in the low-oscillation-amplitude condition, differentiation is observed in both the blocked and interleaved conditions (mirroring results from Schlichting et al., 2015, who found differentiation in both conditions in several regions of interest, including parts of the hippocampus and medial prefrontal cortex).”

      (6) A general question about differentiation/repulsion and how it affects the hidden layer representation in the model: Is it the case that the representation is actually "shifted" or repelled over so it is no longer overlapping? Or do the shared connections just get pruned, such that the item that has more "movement" in representational space is represented by fewer units on the hidden layer (i.e., is reduced in size)? I think, if I understand correctly, that whether it gets shifted vs. reduce would depend on the strength of connections along the hidden layer, which would in turn depend on whether it represents some meaningful continuous dimension (like color) or not. But, if the connections within the hidden layer are relatively weak and it is the case that representations become reduced in size, would there be any anticipated consequences of this (e.g., cognitively/behaviorally)?

      The representations are shifted – this is discussed in the Chanales results section:

      “Because the activity ``set point'' for the hidden layer (determined by the kWTA algorithm) involves having 6 units active, and the unique parts of the competitor only take up 4 of these 6 units, this leaves room for activity to spread to additional units. Given the topographic projections in the output layer, the model is biased to ``pick up'' units that are adjacent in color space to the currently active units; because activity cannot flow easily from the competitor back to the target (as a result of the aforementioned severing of connections), it flows instead {\em away} from the target, activating two additional units, which are then incorporated into the competitor representation. This sequence of events (first a severing of the shared units, then a shift away from the target) completes the process of neural differentiation, and is what leads to the behavioral repulsion effect in color recall (because the center-of-mass of the color representation has now shifted away from the target).”

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      This paper addresses an important computational problem in learning and memory. Why do related memory representations sometimes become more similar to each other (integration) and sometimes more distinct (differentiation)? Classic supervised learning models predict that shared associations should cause memories to integrate, but these models have recently been challenged by empirical data showing that shared associations can sometimes cause differentiation. The authors have previously proposed that unsupervised learning may account for these unintuitive data. Here, they follow up on this idea by actually implementing an unsupervised neural network model that updates the connections between memories based on the amount of coactivity between them. The goal of the authors' paper is to assess whether such a model can account for recent empirical data at odds with supervised learning accounts. For each empirical finding they wish to explain, the authors built a neural network model with a very simple architecture (two inputs layers, one hidden layer, and one output layer) and with prewired stimulus representations and associations. On each trial, a stimulus is presented to the model, and inhibitory oscillations allow competing memories to pop up. Pre-specified u-shaped learning rules are used to update the weights in the model, such that low coactivity leaves model connections unchanged, moderate coactivity weakens connections, and high coactivity strengthens connections. In each of the three models, the authors manipulate stimulus similarity (following Chanales et al), shared vs distinct associations (following Favila et al), or learning strength (a stand in for blocked versus interleaved learning schedule; following Schlichting et al) and evaluate how the model representations evolve over trials.

      As a proof of principle, the authors succeed in demonstrating that unsupervised learning with a

      simple u-shaped rule can produce qualitative results in line with the empirical reports. For instance, they show that pairing two stimuli with a common associate (as in Favila et al) can lead to *differentiation* of the model representations. Demonstrating these effects isn't trivial and a formal modeling framework for doing so is a valuable contribution. Overall, the authors do a good job of both formally describing their model and giving readers a high level sense of how their critical model components work, though there are some places where the robustness of the model to different parameter choices is unclear. In some cases, the authors are very clear about this (e.g. the fast learning rate required to observe differentiation). However, in other instances, the paper would be strengthened by a clearer reporting of the critical parameter ranges.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this point. The interdependence of parameters in our model makes it infeasible to identify critical parameter ranges. We have added a paragraph to the “Approach to Parameterization and Data Fitting” section in the Methods to address this point (p. 33):

      “The overall goal of this modeling work is to account for key empirical regularities regarding differentiation and integration and to establish boundary conditions on these regularities. As such, the modeling work described below focuses more on qualitative fits to general properties of the data space than on quantitative fits to results from specific studies. Automatic parameter optimization is not feasible for this kind of model, given the large number of model parameters and the highly interactive, nonlinear nature of competitive dynamics in the model; consequently, model fitting was done by hand.

      These complex interactions between parameters also make it infeasible to list “critical parameter ranges” for generating particular model outcomes. Our experience in working with the model has been that activation dynamics are what matter most for learning, and that disparate parameter sets can give rise to the same activation dynamics and -- through this -- the same learning effects; likewise, similar parameter sets can give rise to different activation dynamics and different learning outcomes. Consequently, in this paper we have focused on characterizing the dynamics that give rise to different learning effects (and how they can be affected by local parameter perturbations, e.g., relating to learning rate and oscillation size), rather than the – impossible, we believe – task of enumerating the full set of parameter configurations that give rise to a particular result.”

      For instance, it's clear from the manipulation of oscillation strength in the model of Schlichting et al that this parameter can dramatically change the direction of the results. The authors do report the oscillation strength parameter values that they used in the other two models, but it is not clear how sensitive these models are to small changes in this value.

      In some cases, the effects of oscillation strength are relatively smooth. For example, in the Favila simulation, increasing the oscillation amplitude Osc effectively recapitulates the U-shaped curve (i.e., higher levels of Osc lead to more competitor activation, which initially leads to weakening / differentiation but then gives way to strengthening / integration), as is shown for the Favila Different Face condition in this plot:

      Author response image 3.

      In the Chanales 2/6 overlap condition, the effects of varying Osc are more nonlinear:

      Author response image 4.

      We think this is attributable to the increased “all-or-none” recurrent dynamics in this simulation (due to the recurrent projections within the output layer), which make it more difficult to evoke moderate (vs. high) levels of activation. This difficulty in reliably obtaining graded activation dynamics is likely a consequence of the small-scale (“toy”) nature of the model and the simple inhibitory mechanisms employed here, as opposed to being a generalizable property of the brain – presumably, the actual brain employs more nuanced and effective means of controlling activation. Furthermore, we don’t think that the high prevalence of integration in the model’s parameter space necessarily translates into a prediction that integration should be more prevalent overall – see the new “Reconciling the Prevalence of Differentiation in the Model and in the Data” section described in response to one of the reviewer’s other points below. Due to the paper already being quite long, we have opted not to include the above plots / discussion in the paper.

      Similarly, it's not clear whether the 2/6 hidden layer overlap (only explicitly manipulated in the model of Chanales et al) is required for the other two models to work.

      When we were parameterizing the model, we opted to keep the 2/6 level of overlap for all of the simulations and we adjusted other parameters to fit the data; in part, this was because overlap can only be adjusted in discrete jumps, whereas other influential parameters in the model can be adjusted in a more graded, real-valued way. Our use of 2/6 overlap (as opposed to, say, 1/6 or 3/6 overlap) for the Favila and Schlichting models was done out of convenience, and should not be interpreted as a strong statement that this particular level of overlap is necessary for obtaining differentiation; we could easily get the model to show differentiation given other overlap levels by adjusting other parameters.

      Finally, though the u-shaped learning rule is essential to this framework, the paper does little formal investigation of this learning rule. It seems obvious that allowing the u-shape to collapse too much toward a horizontal line would reduce the model's ability to account for empirical results, but there may be other more interesting features of the learning rule parameterization that are essential for the model to function properly.

      Given that the paper is already quite long, we have opted not to include further exploration of the parameters of the U-shaped learning rule in the paper. However, for the reviewer’s information, we report the effects of a few illustrative manipulations of these parameters below. As a general principle, the effects of these manipulations make sense in light of the theoretical framework described in the paper.

      For example, the parameter “DRevMag” controls the size of the negative “dip” in the U-shaped curve (more negative values = a larger dip). Given that this negative dip is essential for severing weights to competitors and causing differentiation, shifting DRevMag upwards towards zero should shift the balance of the model away from differentiation and towards integration. This is indeed what we observe, as shown in this parameter sweep from the Chanales simulation:

      Author response image 5.

      As another example: The “DRev” parameter controls where the U-shaped curve transitions from negative weight change to positive weight change. Lower values of DRev mean that the region of coactivity values leading to negative weight change will be smaller, and the region of coactivity values leading to positive weight change will be larger. As such, we would expect that lower values of DRev would bias the model toward integration. That is indeed the case, as shown in this parameter sweep from the Schlichting Blocked simulation:

      Author response image 6.

      There are a few other points that may limit the model's ability to clearly map onto or make predictions about empirical data. The model(s) seems very keen to integrate and do so more completely than the available empirical data suggest. For instance, there is a complete collapse of representations in half of the simulations in the Chanales et al model and the blocked simulation in the Schlichting et al model also seems to produce nearly complete integration Even if the Chanales et al paper had observed some modest behavioral attraction effects, this model would seem to over-predict integration. The author's somewhat implicitly acknowledge this when they discuss the difficulty of producing differentiation ("Practical Advice for Getting the Model to Show Differentiation") and not of producing integration, but don't address it head on.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment – R1 had a similar comment. We have added a new section to the Discussion to address this point (p. 30):

      “Reconciling the Prevalence of Differentiation in the Model and in the Data.

      A key lesson from our model is that, from a computational perspective, it is challenging to obtain differentiation effects: The region of parameter space that gives rise to differentiation is much smaller than the one that gives rise to integration (for further discussion of this issue, see the section in Methods on Practical Advice for Getting the Model to Show Differentiation). However, the fact that integration is more prevalent in our simulations across parameter configurations does not mean that integration will be more prevalent than differentiation in real-life circumstances. What really matters in predicting the prevalence of differentiation in real life is how the parameters of the brain map on to parameters of the model: If the parameters of the brain align with regions of model parameter space that give rise to differentiation (even if these regions are small), this would explain why differentiation has been so robustly observed in extant studies. Indeed, this is exactly the case that we sought to make above about the hippocampus – i.e., that its use of especially sparse coding and a high learning rate will give rise to the kinds of neural dynamics that cause differentiation (as opposed to integration). As another example, while it is true that half of the overlap conditions in our simulation of Chanales et al. (2021) give rise to integration, this does not imply that integration will occur half of the time in the Chanales et al. (2021) study; it may be that the levels of overlap that are actually observed in the brain in Chanales et al. (2021) are more in line with the levels of overlap that give rise to differentiation in our model.”

      Second, the authors choice of strongly prewiring associations in the Chanales and Favila models makes it difficult to think about how their model maps onto experimental contexts where competition is presumably occurring while associations are only weakly learned. In the Chanales et al paper, for example, the object-face associations are not well learned in initial rounds of the color memory test. While the authors do justify their modeling choice and their reasons have merit, the manipulation of AX association strength in the Schlichting et al model also makes it clear that the association strength has a substantial effect on the model output. Given the effect of this manipulation, more clarity around this assumption for the other two models is needed.

      We thank the reviewer for bringing this up. We have edited the section entitled “A Note on Prewiring Representations” in the Methods to further justify our choice to prewire associations in the Chanales and Favila models (p. 37):

      “In our model, our practice of ``prewiring'' memory representations for the A and B pairmates serves two functions. In some cases, it is meant to stand in for actual training (as in the blocked / interleaved manipulation; the connections supporting the AX association are prewired to be stronger in the blocked condition than in the interleaved condition). However, the other, more fundamental role of prewiring is to ensure that the A and B input patterns evoke sparse distributed representations in the hidden layer (i.e., where some units are strongly active but most other units are inactive). In the real brain, this happens automatically because the weight landscape has been extensively sculpted by both experience and evolution. For example, in the real hippocampus, when the second pairmate is presented for the first time, it will evoke a sparse distributed representation in the CA3 subfield (potentially overlapping with the first pairmate’s CA3 representation) even before any learning of the second pairmate has occurred, due to the strong, sparse mossy fiber projections that connect the dentate gyrus to CA3 (McNaughton & Morris, 1987). As discussed above, we hypothesize that this initial, partial overlap between the second pairmate’s representation and the first pairmate’s representation can lead to pop-up of the unique features of the first pairmate’s representation, triggering learning that leads to differentiation or integration. In our small-scale model, we are effectively starting with a ``blank brain''; in the absence of prewiring, the A and B inputs would activate overly diffuse representations that do not support these kinds of competitive dynamics. As such, prewiring in our model is necessary for proper functioning. The presence of prewired A and B representations should therefore not be interpreted as reflecting a particular training history (except in the blocked / interleaved case above); rather, these prewired representations constitute the minimum step we would take to ensure well-defined competitive dynamics in our small-scale model.

      The fact that connection strengths serve this dual function – sometimes reflecting effects of training (as in our simulation of Schlichting et al., 2015) and in other cases reflecting necessary prewiring – complicates the interpretation of these strength values in the model. Our view is that this is a necessary limitation of our simplified modeling approach – one that can eventually be surmounted through the use of more biologically-detailed architectures (see Limitations and Open Questions in the Discussion).”

      Overall, this is strong and clearly described work that is likely to have a positive impact on computational and empirical work in learning and memory. While the authors have written about some of the ideas discussed in this paper previously, a fully implemented and openly available model is a clear advance that will benefit the field. It is not easy to translate a high-level description of a learning rule into a model that actually runs and behaves as expected. The fact that the authors have made all their code available makes it likely that other researchers will extend the model in numerous interesting ways, many of which the authors have discussed and highlighted in their paper.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      This paper proposes a computational account for the phenomenon of pattern differentiation (i.e., items having distinct neural representations when they are similar). The computational model relies on a learning mechanism of the nonmonotonic plasticity hypothesis, fast learning rate and inhibitory oscillations. The relatively simple architecture of the model makes its dynamics accessible to the human mind. Furthermore, using similar model parameters, this model produces simulated data consistent with empirical data of pattern differentiation. The authors also provide insightful discussion on the factors contributing to differentiation as opposed to integration. The authors may consider the following to further strengthen this paper:

      The model compares different levels of overlap at the hidden layer and reveals that partial overlap seems necessary to lead to differentiation. While I understand this approach from the perspective of modeling, I have concerns about whether this is how the human brain achieves differentiation. Specifically, if we view the hidden layer activation as a conjunctive representation of a pair that is the outcome of encoding, differentiation should precede the formation of the hidden layer activation pattern of the second pairmate. Instead, the model assumes such pattern already exists before differentiation. Maybe the authors indeed argue that mechanistically differentiation follows initial encoding that does not consider similarity with other memory traces?

      Related to the point above, because the simulation setup is different from how differentiation actually occurs, I wonder how valid the prediction of asymmetric reconfiguration of hidden layer connectivity pattern is.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. In the revised manuscript, we have edited the “Note on Prewiring Representations” in the Methods to clarify how our assumptions about prewiring relate to what we really think is happening in the brain (p. 37):

      “In our model, our practice of ``prewiring'' memory representations for the A and B pairmates serves two functions. In some cases, it is meant to stand in for actual training (as in the blocked / interleaved manipulation; the connections supporting the AX association are prewired to be stronger in the blocked condition than in the interleaved condition). However, the other, more fundamental role of prewiring is to ensure that the A and B input patterns evoke sparse distributed representations in the hidden layer (i.e., where some units are strongly active but most other units are inactive). In the real brain, this happens automatically because the weight landscape has been extensively sculpted by both experience and evolution. For example, in the real hippocampus, when the second pairmate is presented for the first time, it will evoke a sparse distributed representation in the CA3 subfield (potentially overlapping with the first pairmate’s CA3 representation) even before any learning of the second pairmate has occurred, due to the strong, sparse mossy fiber projections that connect the dentate gyrus to CA3 (McNaughton & Morris, 1987). As discussed above, we hypothesize that this initial, partial overlap between the second pairmate’s representation and the first pairmate’s representation can lead to pop-up of the unique features of the first pairmate’s representation, triggering learning that leads to differentiation or integration. In our small-scale model, we are effectively starting with a ``blank brain''; in the absence of prewiring, the A and B inputs would activate overly diffuse representations that do not support these kinds of competitive dynamics. As such, prewiring in our model is necessary for proper functioning. The presence of prewired A and B representations should therefore not be interpreted as reflecting a particular training history (except in the blocked / interleaved case above); rather, these prewired representations constitute the minimum step we would take to ensure well-defined competitive dynamics in our small-scale model.

      The fact that connection strengths serve this dual function – sometimes reflecting effects of training (as in our simulation of Schlichting et al., 2015) and in other cases reflecting necessary prewiring – complicates the interpretation of these strength values in the model. Our view is that this is a necessary limitation of our simplified modeling approach – one that can eventually be surmounted through the use of more biologically-detailed architectures (see Limitations and Open Questions in the Discussion).”

      Although as the authors mentioned, there haven't been formal empirical tests of the relationship between learning speed and differentiation/integration, I am also wondering to what degree the prediction of fast learning being necessary for differentiation is consistent with current data. According to Figure 6, the learning rates lead to differentiation in the 2/6 condition achieved differentiation after just one-shot most of the time. On the other hand, For example, Guo et al (2021) showed that humans may need a few blocks of training and test to start showing differentiation.

      We thank the reviewer for mentioning this. We have added a paragraph to the “Differentiation Requires a High Learning Rate and Is Sensitive to Activity Dynamics” section of the Discussion that addresses this point (pp. 28-29):

      “Although the results from Wanjia et al. (2021) provide strong support for the model's prediction that differentiation will be abrupt, they raise another question: What explains variance across items in when this abrupt change takes place? The answer to this question remains to be seen, but one possibility is encoding variability: If we assume that participants stochastically sample (i.e., attend to) the features of the scene pairmates, it is possible that participants might initially fail to sample the features that distinguish the scene pairmates, which can be quite subtle – and if the distinguishing features of the pairmates are not represented in high-level visual regions (i.e., the pairmates are represented in these regions as having the same features), this could delay the onset of differentiation until the point at which the distinguishing features happen (by chance) to be sampled.”

      Related to the point above, the high learning rate prediction also seems to be at odds with the finding that the cortex, which has slow learning (according to the theory of complementary learning systems), also shows differentiation in Wammes et al (2022).

      We now address this point in the section of the Discussion entitled “Differentiation Requires a High Learning Rate and Is Sensitive to Activity Dynamics” (p. 27):

      “Our finding that differentiation requires a high learning rate suggests that differentiation will be more evident in the hippocampus than in neocortex, insofar as hippocampus is thought to have a higher learning rate than neocortex (McClelland et al., 1995). In keeping with this prediction, numerous studies have found differentiation effects in hippocampus but not in neocortical regions involved in sensory processing (e.g., Chanales et al., 2017; Favila et al., 2016; Zeithamova et al., 2018). At the same time, some studies have found differentiation effects in neocortex (e.g., Schlichting et al., 2015; Wammes et al., 2022). One possible explanation of these neocortical differentiation effects is that they are being ``propped up’’ by top-down feedback from differentiated representations in the hippocampus.”

      More details about the learning dynamics would be helpful. For example, equation(s) showing how activation, learning rate and the NMPH function work together to change the weight of connections may be added. Without the information, it is unclear how each connection changes its value after each time point.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. We have made two major changes to address this concern. First, we have edited the “Learning” section within “Basic Network Properties” in the main text (pp. 6-7):

      “Connection strengths in the model between pairs of connected units x and y were adjusted at the end of each trial (i.e., after each stimulus presentation) as a U-shaped function of the coactivity of x and y, defined as the product of their activations on that trial. The parameters of the U-shaped learning function relating coactivity to change in connection strength (i.e., weakening / strengthening) were specified differently for each projection where learning occurs (bidirectionally between the input and hidden layers, the hidden layer to itself, and the hidden to output layer). Once the U-shaped learning function for each projection in each version of the model was specified, we did not change it for any of the various conditions. Details of how we computed coactivity and how we specified the U-shaped function can be found in the Methods section.”

      Second, we have added the requested equations to the “Learning” part of the Methods (pp. 37-38):

      The right side of the function, strong activation leads to strengthening of the connectivity, which I assume will lead to stronger activation on the next time point. The model has an upper limit of connection strength to prevent connection from strengthening too much. The same idea can be applied to the left side of the function: instead of having two turning points, it can be a linear function such that low activation keeps weakening connection until the lower limit is reached. This way the NMPH function can take a simpler form (e.g., two line-segments if you think the weakening and strengthening take different rates) and may still simulate the data.

      We thank the reviewer for mentioning this. We have added a new paragraph in the “Learning” section of the Methods to justify the particular shape of the learning curve (pp. 38-39):

      “Evidence for the U-shaped plasticity function used here (where low activation leads to no change, moderate activation leads to weakening, and higher levels of activation lead to strengthening) was previously reviewed in Ritvo et al. (2019). In brief, there are three lines of work that support the U shape: First, multiple neurophysiological studies have found that moderate postsynaptic depolarization leads to synaptic weakening and higher levels of depolarization lead to synaptic strengthening (e.g., Artola et al., 1990; Hansel et al., 1996). Second, human neuroscience studies have used pattern classifiers, applied to fMRI and EEG data, to measure memory activation, and have related this measure to subsequent memory accessibility; several studies using this approach have found that low levels of activation lead to no change in memory strength, moderate levels of activation lead to impaired subsequent memory, and higher levels of activation lead to increased subsequent memory (e.g., Newman and Norman, 2010; Detre et al., 2013; Kim et al., 2014; for related findings, see Lewis-Peacock and Norman, 2014; Wang et al., 2019). Third, a recent human fMRI study by Wammes et al. (2022) manipulated memory activation by varying the visual similarity of pairmates and observed a U-shaped function relating visual similarity to representational change in the hippocampus, whereby low levels of pairmate similarity were associated with no change, moderate levels of similarity were associated with differentiation, and the differentiation effect went away at higher levels of similarity.

      We have also included a pointer to this new paragraph in the “Nonmonotonic Plasticity Hypothesis” section of Introduction (p. 2):

      (for further discussion of the empirical justification for the NMPH, see the Learning subsection in the Methods)”

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      A few additional minor things about data presentation and the like:

      (1) Figure 1 legend - a more general description of how to interpret the figure might be helpful for more naive readers (e.g., explaining how one can visualize in the schematic that there is overlap in the hidden layer between A and B). Also, from the Figure 1 depiction, it's not clear what is different about the setup from the initial left hand side panels in A, B, C, to make it such that activity spreads strongly to A in panel A, weakly in panel B, and not at all in panel C since the weights are the same. Is there a way to incorporate this into the graphic, or describe it in words?

      To address this point, we have added the following text to the Figure 1 caption (p. 3):

      “Note that the figure illustrates the consequences of differences in competitor activation for learning, without explaining why these differences would arise. For discussion of circumstances that could lead to varying levels of competitor activation, see the simulations described in the text.”

      (2) I believe not all of the papers cited on lines 193-195 actually have similarity manipulations in them. I'd recommend double checking this list and removing those less relevant to the statement.

      Thank you for pointing this out; we have removed the Ballard reference and we have clarified what we mean by similarity reversal (p. 7):

      “The study was inspired by recent neuroimaging studies showing ``similarity reversals'', wherein stimuli that have more features in common (or share a common associate) show less hippocampal pattern similarity (Favila et al., 2016; Schlichting et al., 2015; Molitor et al., 2021; Chanales et al., 2017; Dimsdale-Zucker et al., 2018; Wanjia et al., 2021; Zeithamova et al., 2018; Jiang et al., 2020; Wammes et al., 2022).”

      (3) I wanted a bit more detail about how the parameters were set in the main paper, not just in the methods. Even something as brief as noting that model fitting was done by hand by tweaking parameters to re-create the empirical patterns (if I'm understanding correctly) would have been helpful for me.

      To address this point, we have added the following text under “Basic Network Properties” (p. 4):

      “Our goal was to qualitatively fit key patterns of results from each of the aforementioned studies. We fit the parameters of the model by hand as they are highly interdependent (see the Methods section for more details).”

      (4) In Figure 4E, it would be helpful to describe the x and y axes of the MDS plots in the legend.

      To address this point, we have added the following new text to the Figure 4 caption that clarifies how the MDS plots were generated (p. 11):

      “MDS plots were rotated, shifted, and scaled such that pairmate 1before is located at (0,0), pairmate 2before is located directly to the right of pairmate 1before, and the distance between pairmate 1before and pairmate 2before is proportional to the baseline distance between the pairmates.”

      (5) Figure 6 - at first I thought the thicker line was some sort of baseline, but I think it is just many traces on top of one another. If other readers may be similarly confused, perhaps this could be stated.

      Thanks for this comment. We have updated Figure 6 (p. 16).

      We have also updated the caption.

      I am having a lot of difficulty understanding the terms "competitor-to-competitor,"

      "competitor-to-target/shared," and "target/shared-to-target/shared," and therefore I don't fully get Figure 5. I think it might be helpful to expand the description of these terms where they are first introduced in the paper (p. 13?). I think I am missing something crucial here, and I am not quite sure what that is-which I know is not very helpful! But, to narrate my confusion a bit, I thought that these terms would somehow relate to connections between different connections of the network. For example is competitor-to-competitor within the hidden layer? Or is this somehow combining across relevant connections that might span different pairs of layers in the model? And, I really have no idea why it is "target/shared."

      Thank you for these comments. We have updated Figure 5 and we have also made several changes to the main text and the figure caption to address these points.

      Changes to the main text (p. 13):

      “Whether symmetric or asymmetric integration occurs depends on the relative strengths of connections between pairs of unique competitor units (competitor-competitor connections) compared to connections between unique competitor units and shared units (competitor-shared connections) after the first trial (Figure 5; note that the figure focuses on connections between hidden units, but the principle also applies to connections that span across layers). Generally, coactivity between unique competitor units (competitor-competitor coactivity) is less than coactivity between unique competitor units and shared units (competitor-shared coactivity), which is less than coactivity between unique target units and shared units (target-shared coactivity).”

      (7) Relatedly in Figure 13, I understand how some competitor-to-target/shared connections could be spared in the bottom instance given panel B. However, I'm struggling to understand how that relates to the values in the corresponding chart in panel A. What about panel A, bottom (vs. the top) means lower coactivities between some competitor-to-target/shared? Is it because if the noise level is higher, the "true" activation of competitor-to-target/shared connections is weaker? I think again, I'm missing something critical here! and wonder if other readers may be in the same situation. (I know the authors described this also on p. 36, but I'm still confused!)

      We have updated Figure 13 to clarify these points.

      (8)  In Figure 9, I believe there is no caption for panel D. Also, it looks as though the item unit active for A and B is the same. I wonder if this is an error?

      Thank you for catching these errors! They have both been fixed.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      -Perhaps I missed it, but I think defining coactivity (how it is computed) in the main text would be useful for readers, as this is critical for understanding the model. I did find it in the methods.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have updated the “Learning” section within “Basic Network Properties” in the main text to address this point (pp. 6-7):

      “Connection strengths in the model between pairs of connected units x and y were adjusted at the end of each trial (i.e., after each stimulus presentation) as a U-shaped function of the coactivity of x and y, defined as the product of their activations on that trial. The parameters of the U-shaped learning function relating coactivity to change in connection strength (i.e., weakening / strengthening) were specified differently for each projection where learning occurs (bidirectionally between the input and hidden layers, the hidden layer to itself, and the hidden to output layer). Once the U-shaped learning function for each projection in each version of the model was specified, we did not change it for any of the various conditions. Details of how we computed coactivity and how we specified the U-shaped function can be found in the Methods section.”

      -The modeling results in the different face condition are at odds with the data for the Favila et al model (they observe some differentiation in the paper and the model predicts no change). This could be due to a number of unmodeled factors, but it is perhaps worth noting.

      Thank you for pointing this out. It is possible to better capture the pattern of results observed by Favila et al. in their paper (with some differentiation in the different-face condition and even more differentiation in the same-face condition) by slightly adjusting the model parameters (specifically, by setting the oscillation amplitude Osc for the hidden layer to .1 instead of .067).

      Rather than replacing the old (Osc \= .067) results in the paper, which would entail re-making the associated videos, etc., we have added a supplementary figure (Figure 8 - Supplement 1; see p.45):

      We also added new text to the Favila Results, under “Differentiation and Integration” (p. 20):

      “Note also that the exact levels of differentiation that are observed in the different-face and same-face conditions are parameter dependent; for an alternative set of results showing some differentiation in the different-face condition (but still less than is observed in the same-face condition), see Figure 8 - Supplement 1.”

      -Related to my comment in the public review about pre-wiring associations, in the caption for Figure 9 (Schlichting model), the authors report "In both conditions, the pre-wired connection linking the "item B" hidden units to the "item X" output unit is set to .7. In the interleaved condition, the connection linking the "item A" hidden units to the "item X" output unit is set to .8, to reflect some amount of initial AX learning. In the blocked condition, the connection linking the "item A" hidden units to the "item X" output unit is set a higher value (.999), to reflect extra AX learning." What are the equivalent values for the other models, especially the Favila model since the structure is the same as Schlichting? I understood all the "strong" connections to be .99 unless otherwise stated. If that's the case, I don't understand why the blocked Schlichting model and the Favila model produce opposite effects. More clarity would be useful here.

      We have added a new paragraph to the results section for the Schlicting model (under “Differentiation and Integration”) to clarify why the blocked Schlichting model and the Favila model show different results (p. 24):

      “Note that the key feature driving integration in the blocked condition of this simulation is not the high strength of the connection from X to A on its own – rather, it is the asymmetry in the pretrained connection strengths from X to A (.999) and from X to B (.7). This asymmetry, which is meant to reflect the extensive training on A-X that occurred before the initial presentation of B-X, results in the A-X hidden representation decisively winning the competition during B-X presentation, which then leads to the B input also being linked to this representation (i.e., integration). It is instructive to compare this to the same-face condition from our simulation of Favila et al. (2016): In that simulation, the two pairmates are also linked strongly (.99 initial connection strength) to a shared associate, but in that case the connections are equally strong, so there is more balanced competition -- in this case, the competitor representation only comes to mind moderately (instead of displacing the target representation), so the result is differentiation instead of integration.”

      -The meaning of the different colored dots in Figure 5 is bit hard to keep track of, even given the legend labels. The figure might benefit from a model sketch highlighting each of the different coactivity types. The left side of Fig 13 was useful but again somehow mapping on the colors would help further. Another note on these figures: what does having two dots of each color mean? Is it just an illustration of the variance? There would be more dots if there was one dot per coactivity value.

      We have updated Figure 5 and Figure 13 to clarify these points (including a clarification that the dots only represent a subset of the possible pairings between units).

      -While I appreciate the goal of the paper is to account for these three studies, readers who aren't familiar with or specifically interested in these studies may appreciate a small amount of intuition on why formalizing unsupervised learning models may be broadly important for computational investigations of learning/memory/cognition.

      We have added the following text under “Basic Network Properties” in the Introduction to address this point (p. 4):

      “Achieving a better understanding of unsupervised learning is an important goal for computational neuroscience, given that learning agents have vastly more opportunities to learn in an unsupervised fashion than from direct supervision (for additional discussion of this point, see, e.g., Zhuang et al., 2021).”

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This paper presents a compelling and comprehensive study of decision-making under uncertainty. It addresses a fundamental distinction between belief-based (cognitive neuroscience) formulations of choice behaviour with reward-based (behavioural psychology) accounts. Specifically, it asks whether active inference provides a better account of planning and decision-making, relative to reinforcement learning. To do this, the authors use a simple but elegant paradigm that includes choices about whether to seek both information and rewards. They then assess the evidence for active inference and reinforcement learning models of choice behaviour, respectively. After demonstrating that active inference provides a better explanation of behavioural responses, the neuronal correlates of epistemic and instrumental value (under an optimised active inference model) are characterised using EEG. Significant neuronal correlates of both kinds of value were found in sensor and source space. The source space correlates are then discussed sensibly, in relation to the existing literature on the functional anatomy of perceptual and instrumental decision-making under uncertainty.

      Strengths:

      The strengths of this work rest upon the theoretical underpinnings and careful deconstruction of the various determinants of choice behaviour using active inference. A particular strength here is that the experimental paradigm is designed carefully to elicit both information-seeking and reward-seeking behaviour; where the information-seeking is itself separated into resolving uncertainty about the context (i.e., latent states) and the contingencies (i.e., latent parameters), under which choices are made. In other words, the paradigm - and its subsequent modelling - addresses both inference and learning as necessary belief and knowledge-updating processes that underwrite decisions.

      The authors were then able to model belief updating using active inference and then look for the neuronal correlates of the implicit planning or policy selection. This speaks to a further strength of this study; it provides some construct validity for the modelling of belief updating and decision-making; in terms of the functional anatomy as revealed by EEG. Empirically, the source space analysis of the neuronal correlates licences some discussion of functional specialisation and integration at various stages in the choices and decision-making.

      In short, the strengths of this work rest upon a (first) principles account of decision-making under uncertainty in terms of belief updating that allows them to model or fit choice behaviour in terms of Bayesian belief updating - and then use relatively state-of-the-art source reconstruction to examine the neuronal correlates of the implicit cognitive processing.

      Response: We are deeply grateful for your careful review of our work and for the thoughtful feedback you have provided. Your dedication to ensuring the quality and clarity of the work is truly admirable. Your comments have been invaluable in guiding us towards improving the paper, and We appreciate your time and effort in not just offering suggestions but also providing specific revisions that I can implement. Your insights have helped us identify areas where I can strengthen the arguments and clarify the methodology.

      Comment 1:

      The main weaknesses of this report lies in the communication of the ideas and procedures. Although the language is generally excellent, there are some grammatical lapses that make the text difficult to read. More importantly, the authors are not consistent in their use of some terms; for example, uncertainty and information gain are sometimes conflated in a way that might confuse readers. Furthermore, the descriptions of the modelling and data analysis are incomplete. These shortcomings could be addressed in the following way.

      First, it would be useful to unpack the various interpretations of information and goal-seeking offered in the (active inference) framework examined in this study. For example, it will be good to include the following paragraph:

      "In contrast to behaviourist approaches to planning and decision-making, active inference formulates the requisite cognitive processing in terms of belief updating in which choices are made based upon their expected free energy. Expected free energy can be regarded as a universal objective function, specifying the relative likelihood of alternative choices. In brief, expected free energy can be regarded as the surprise expected following some action, where the expected surprise comes in two flavours. First, the expected surprise is uncertainty, which means that policies with a low expected free energy resolve uncertainty and promote information seeking. However, one can also minimise expected surprise by avoiding surprising, aversive outcomes. This leads to goal-seeking behaviour, where the goals can be regarded as prior preferences or rewarding outcomes.

      Technically, expected free energy can be expressed in terms of risk plus ambiguity - or rearranged to be expressed in terms of expected information gain plus expected value, where value corresponds to (log) prior preferences. We will refer to both decompositions in what follows; noting that both decompositions accommodate information and goal-seeking imperatives. That is, resolving ambiguity and maximising information gain have epistemic value, while minimising risk or maximising expected value have pragmatic or instrumental value. These two kinds of values are sometimes referred to in terms of intrinsic and extrinsic value, respectively [1-4]."

      Response 1: We deeply thank you for your comments and corresponding suggestions about our interpretations of active inference. In response to your identified weaknesses and suggestions, we have added corresponding paragraphs in the Methods section (The free energy principle and active inference, line 95-106):

      “Active inference formulates the necessary cognitive processing as a process of belief updating, where choices depend on agents' expected free energy. Expected free energy serves as a universal objective function, guiding both perception and action. In brief, expected free energy can be seen as the expected surprise following some policies. The expected surprise can be reduced by resolving uncertainty, and one can select policies with lower expected free energy which can encourage information-seeking and resolve uncertainty. Additionally, one can minimize expected surprise by avoiding surprising or aversive outcomes (oudeyer et al., 2007; Schmidhuber et al., 2010). This leads to goal-seeking behavior, where goals can be viewed as prior preferences or rewarding outcomes.

      Technically, expected free energy can also be expressed as expected information gain plus expected value, where the value corresponds to (log) prior preferences. We will refer to both formulations in what follows. Resolving ambiguity, minimizing risk, and maximizing information gain has epistemic value while maximizing expected value have pragmatic or instrumental value. These two types of values can be referred to in terms of intrinsic and extrinsic value, respectively (Barto et al., 2013; Schwartenbeck et al., 2019).”

      Oudeyer, P. Y., & Kaplan, F. (2007). What is intrinsic motivation? A typology of computational approaches. Frontiers in neurorobotics, 1, 108.

      Schmidhuber, J. (2010). Formal theory of creativity, fun, and intrinsic motivation (1990–2010). IEEE transactions on autonomous mental development, 2(3), 230-247.

      Barto, A., Mirolli, M., & Baldassarre, G. (2013). Novelty or surprise?. Frontiers in psychology, 4, 61898.

      Schwartenbeck, P., Passecker, J., Hauser, T. U., FitzGerald, T. H., Kronbichler, M., & Friston, K. J. (2019). Computational mechanisms of curiosity and goal-directed exploration. elife, 8, e41703.

      Comment 2:

      The description of the modelling of choice behaviour needs to be unpacked and motivated more carefully. Perhaps along the following lines:

      "To assess the evidence for active inference over reinforcement learning, we fit active inference and reinforcement learning models to the choice behaviour of each subject. Effectively, this involved optimising the free parameters of active inference and reinforcement learning models to maximise the likelihood of empirical choices. The resulting (marginal) likelihood was then used as the evidence for each model. The free parameters for the active inference model scaled the contribution of the three terms that constitute the expected free energy (in Equation 6). These coefficients can be regarded as precisions that characterise each subjects' prior beliefs about contingencies and rewards. For example, increasing the precision or the epistemic value associated with model parameters means the subject would update her beliefs about reward contingencies more quickly than a subject who has precise prior beliefs about reward distributions. Similarly, subjects with a high precision over prior preferences or extrinsic value can be read as having more precise beliefs that she will be rewarded. The free parameters for the reinforcement learning model included..."

      Response 2: We deeply thank you for your comments and corresponding suggestions about our description of the behavioral modelling. In response to your identified weaknesses and suggestions, we have added corresponding content in the Results section (Behavioral results, line 279-293):

      “To assess the evidence for active inference over reinforcement learning, we fit active inference (Eq.9), model-free reinforcement learning, and model-based reinforcement learning models to the behavioral data of each participant. This involved optimizing the free parameters of active inference and reinforcement learning models. The resulting likelihood was used to calculate the Bayesian Information Criterion (BIC) (Vrieze 2012) as the evidence for each model. The free parameters for the active inference model (AL, AI, EX, prior, and α) scaled the contribution of the three terms that constitute the expected free energy in Eq.9. These coefficients can be regarded as precisions that characterize each participant's prior beliefs about contingencies and rewards. For example, increasing α means participants would update their beliefs about reward contingencies more quickly, increasing AL means participants would like to reduce ambiguity more, and increasing AI means participants would like to learn the hidden state of the environment and avoid risk more. The free parameters for the model-free reinforcement learning model are the learning rate α and the temperature parameter γ and the free parameters for the model-based are the learning rate α, the temperature parameter γ and prior (the details for the model-free reinforcement learning model can be seen in Eq.S1-11 and the details for the model-based reinforcement learning model can be seen Eq.S12-23 in the Supplementary Method). The parameter fitting for these three models was conducted using the `BayesianOptimization' package in Python (Frazire 2018), first randomly sampling 1000 times and then iterating for an additional 1000 times.”

      Vrieze, S. I. (2012). Model selection and psychological theory: a discussion of the differences between the Akaike information criterion (AIC) and the Bayesian information criterion (BIC). Psychological methods, 17(2), 228.

      Frazier, P. I. (2018). A tutorial on Bayesian optimization. arXiv preprint arXiv:1807.02811.

      Comment 3:

      In terms of the time-dependent correlations with expected free energy - and its constituent terms - I think the report would benefit from overviewing these analyses with something like the following:

      "In the final analysis of the neuronal correlates of belief updating - as quantified by the epistemic and intrinsic values of expected free energy - we present a series of analyses in source space. These analyses tested for correlations between constituent terms in expected free energy and neuronal responses in source space. These correlations were over trials (and subjects). Because we were dealing with two-second timeseries, we were able to identify the periods of time during decision-making when the correlates were expressed.

      In these analyses, we focused on the induced power of neuronal activity at each point in time, at each brain source. To illustrate the functional specialisation of these neuronal correlates, we present whole-brain maps of correlation coefficients and pick out the most significant correlation for reporting fluctuations in selected correlations over two-second periods. These analyses are presented in a descriptive fashion to highlight the nature and variety of the neuronal correlates, which we unpack in relation to the existing EEG literature in the discussion. Note that we did not attempt to correct for multiple comparisons; largely, because the correlations observed were sustained over considerable time periods, which would be almost impossible under the null hypothesis of no correlations."

      Response 3: We deeply thank you for your comments and corresponding suggestions about our description of the regression analysis in the source space. In response to your suggestions, we have added corresponding content in the Results section (EEG results at source level, line 331-347):

      “In the final analysis of the neural correlates of the decision-making process, as quantified by the epistemic and intrinsic values of expected free energy, we presented a series of linear regressions in source space. These analyses tested for correlations over trials between constituent terms in expected free energy (the value of avoiding risk, the value of reducing ambiguity, extrinsic value, and expected free energy itself) and neural responses in source space. Additionally, we also investigated the neural correlate of (the degree of) risk, (the degree of) ambiguity, and prediction error. Because we were dealing with a two-second time series, we were able to identify the periods of time during decision-making when the correlates were expressed. The linear regression was run by the "mne.stats.linear regression" function in the MNE package (Activity ~ Regressor + Intercept). Activity is the activity amplitude of the EEG signal in the source space and regressor is one of the regressors that we mentioned (e.g., expected free energy, the value of reducing ambiguity, etc.).

      In these analyses, we focused on the induced power of neural activity at each time point, in the brain source space. To illustrate the functional specialization of these neural correlates, we presented whole-brain maps of correlation coefficients and picked out the brain region with the most significant correlation for reporting fluctuations in selected correlations over two-second periods. These analyses were presented in a descriptive fashion to highlight the nature and variety of the neural correlates, which we unpacked in relation to the existing EEG literature in the discussion. Note that we did not attempt to correct for multiple comparisons; largely, because the correlations observed were sustained over considerable time periods, which would be almost impossible under the null hypothesis of no correlations.”

      Comment 4:

      There was a slight misdirection in the discussion of priors in the active inference framework. The notion that active inference requires a pre-specification of priors is a common misconception. Furthermore, it misses the point that the utility of Bayesian modelling is to identify the priors that each subject brings to the table. This could be easily addressed with something like the following in the discussion:

      "It is a common misconception that Bayesian approaches to choice behaviour (including active inference) are limited by a particular choice of priors. As illustrated in our fitting of choice behaviour above, priors are a strength of Bayesian approaches in the following sense: under the complete class theorem [5, 6], any pair of choice behaviours and reward functions can be described in terms of ideal Bayesian decision-making with particular priors. In other words, there always exists a description of choice behaviour in terms of some priors. This means that one can, in principle, characterise any given behaviour in terms of the priors that explain that behaviour. In our example, these were effectively priors over the precision of various preferences or beliefs about contingencies that underwrite expected free energy."

      Response 4: We deeply thank you for your comments and corresponding suggestions about the prior of Bayesian methods. In response to your suggestions, we have added corresponding content in the Discussion section (The strength of the active inference framework in decision-making, line 447-453):

      “However, it may be the opposite. As illustrated in our fitting results, priors can be a strength of Bayesian approaches. Under the complete class theorem (Wald 1947; Brown 1981), any pair of behavioral data and reward functions can be described in terms of ideal Bayesian decision-making with particular priors. In other words, there always exists a description of behavioral data in terms of some priors. This means that one can, in principle, characterize any given behavioral data in terms of the priors that explain that behavior. In our example, these were effectively priors over the precision of various preferences or beliefs about contingencies that underwrite expected free energy.”

      Wald, A. (1947). An essentially complete class of admissible decision functions. The Annals of Mathematical Statistics, 549-555.

      Brown, L. D. (1981). A complete class theorem for statistical problems with finite sample spaces. The Annals of Statistics, 1289-1300.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Zhang and colleagues use a combination of behavioral, neural, and computational analyses to test an active inference model of exploration in a novel reinforcement learning task.

      Strengths:

      The paper addresses an important question (validation of active inference models of exploration). The combination of behavior, neuroimaging, and modeling is potentially powerful for answering this question.

      Response: We want to express our sincere gratitude for your thorough review of our work and for the valuable comments you have provided. Your attention to detail and dedication to improving the quality of the work are truly commendable. Your feedback has been invaluable in guiding us towards revisions that will strengthen the work. We have made targeted modifications based on most of the comments. However, due to factors such as time and energy constraints, we have not added corresponding analyses for several comments.

      Comment 1:

      The paper does not discuss relevant work on contextual bandits by Schulz, Collins, and others. It also does not mention the neuroimaging study of Tomov et al. (2020) using a risky/safe bandit task.

      Response 1:

      We deeply thank you for your suggestions about the relevant work. We now discussion and cite these representative papers in the Introduction section (line 42-55):

      “The decision-making process frequently involves grappling with varying forms of uncertainty, such as ambiguity - the kind of uncertainty that can be reduced through sampling, and risk - the inherent uncertainty (variance) presented by a stable environment. Studies have investigated these different forms of uncertainty in decision-making, focusing on their neural correlates (Daw et al., 2006; Badre et al., 2012; Cavanagh et al., 2012).

      These studies utilized different forms of multi-armed bandit tasks, e.g the restless multi-armed bandit tasks (Daw et al., 2006; Guha et al., 2010), risky/safe bandit tasks (Tomov et al., 2020; Fan et al., 2022; Payzan et al., 2013), contextual multi-armed bandit tasks (Schulz et al., 2015; Schulz et al., 2015; Molinaro et al., 2023). However, these tasks either separate risk from ambiguity in uncertainty, or separate action from state (perception). In our work, we develop a contextual multi-armed bandit task to enable participants to actively reduce ambiguity, avoid risk, and maximize rewards using various policies (see Section 2.2) and Figure 4(a)). Our task makes it possible to study whether the brain represents these different types of uncertainty distinctly (Levy et al., 2010) and whether the brain represents both the value of reducing uncertainty and the degree of uncertainty. The active inference framework presents a theoretical approach to investigate these questions. Within this framework, uncertainties can be reduced to ambiguity and risk. Ambiguity is represented by the uncertainty about model parameters associated with choosing a particular action, while risk is signified by the variance of the environment's hidden states. The value of reducing ambiguity, the value of avoiding risk, and extrinsic value together constitute expected free energy (see Section 2.1).”

      Daw, N. D., O'doherty, J. P., Dayan, P., Seymour, B., & Dolan, R. J. (2006). Cortical substrates for exploratory decisions in humans. Nature, 441(7095), 876-879.

      Badre, D., Doll, B. B., Long, N. M., & Frank, M. J. (2012). Rostrolateral prefrontal cortex and individual differences in uncertainty-driven exploration. Neuron, 73(3), 595-607.

      Cavanagh, J. F., Figueroa, C. M., Cohen, M. X., & Frank, M. J. (2012). Frontal theta reflects uncertainty and unexpectedness during exploration and exploitation. Cerebral cortex, 22(11), 2575-2586.

      Guha, S., Munagala, K., & Shi, P. (2010). Approximation algorithms for restless bandit problems. Journal of the ACM (JACM), 58(1), 1-50.

      Tomov, M. S., Truong, V. Q., Hundia, R. A., & Gershman, S. J. (2020). Dissociable neural correlates of uncertainty underlie different exploration strategies. Nature communications, 11(1), 2371.

      Fan, H., Gershman, S. J., & Phelps, E. A. (2023). Trait somatic anxiety is associated with reduced directed exploration and underestimation of uncertainty. Nature Human Behaviour, 7(1), 102-113.

      Payzan-LeNestour, E., Dunne, S., Bossaerts, P., & O’Doherty, J. P. (2013). The neural representation of unexpected uncertainty during value-based decision making. Neuron, 79(1), 191-201.

      Schulz, E., Konstantinidis, E., & Speekenbrink, M. (2015, April). Exploration-exploitation in a contextual multi-armed bandit task. In International conference on cognitive modeling (pp. 118-123).

      Schulz, E., Konstantinidis, E., & Speekenbrink, M. (2015, November). Learning and decisions in contextual multi-armed bandit tasks. In CogSci.

      Molinaro, G., & Collins, A. G. (2023). Intrinsic rewards explain context-sensitive valuation in reinforcement learning. PLoS Biology, 21(7), e3002201.

      Levy, I., Snell, J., Nelson, A. J., Rustichini, A., & Glimcher, P. W. (2010). Neural representation of subjective value under risk and ambiguity. Journal of neurophysiology, 103(2), 1036-1047.

      Comment 2:

      The statistical reporting is inadequate. In most cases, only p-values are reported, not the relevant statistics, degrees of freedom, etc. It was also not clear if any corrections for multiple comparisons were applied. Many of the EEG results are described as "strong" or "robust" with significance levels of p<0.05; I am skeptical in the absence of more details, particularly given the fact that the corresponding plots do not seem particularly strong to me.

      Response 2: We deeply thank you for your comments about our statistical reporting. We have optimized the fitting model and rerun all the statistical analyses. As can be seen (Figure 6, 7, 8, S3, S4, S5), the new regression results are significantly improved compared to the previous ones. Due to the limitation of space, we place the other relevant statistical results, including t-values, std err, etc., on our GitHub (https://github.com/andlab-um/FreeEnergyEEG). Currently, we have not conducted multiple comparison corrections based on Reviewer 1’s comments (Comments 3) “Note that we did not attempt to correct for multiple comparisons; largely, because the correlations observed were sustained over considerable time periods, which would be almost impossible under the null hypothesis of no correlations”.

      Author response image 1.

      Comment 3:

      The authors compare their active inference model to a "model-free RL" model. This model is not described anywhere, as far as I can tell. Thus, I have no idea how it was fit, how many parameters it has, etc. The active inference model fitting is also not described anywhere. Moreover, you cannot compare models based on log-likelihood, unless you are talking about held-out data. You need to penalize for model complexity. Finally, even if active inference outperforms a model-free RL model (doubtful given the error bars in Fig. 4c), I don't see how this is strong evidence for active inference per se. I would want to see a much more extensive model comparison, including model-based RL algorithms which are not based on active inference, as well as model recovery analyses confirming that the models can actually be distinguished on the basis of the experimental data.

      Response 3: We deeply thank you for your comments about the model comparison details. We previously omitted some information about the comparison model, as classical reinforcement learning is not the focus of our work, so we put the specific details in the supplementary materials. Now we have placed relevant information in the main text (see the part we have highlighted in yellow). We have now added the relevant information regarding the model comparison in the Results section (Behavioral results, line 279-293):

      “To assess the evidence for active inference over reinforcement learning, we fit active inference (Eq.9), model-free reinforcement learning, and model-based reinforcement learning models to the behavioral data of each participant. This involved optimizing the free parameters of active inference and reinforcement learning models. The resulting likelihood was used to calculate the Bayesian Information Criterion (BIC) as the evidence for each model. The free parameters for the active inference model (AL, AI, EX, prior, and α) scaled the contribution of the three terms that constitute the expected free energy in Eq.9. These coefficients can be regarded as precisions that characterize each participant's prior beliefs about contingencies and rewards. For example, increasing α means participants would update their beliefs about reward contingencies more quickly, increasing AL means participants would like to reduce ambiguity more, and increasing AI means participants would like to learn the hidden state of the environment and avoid risk more. The free parameters for the model-free reinforcement learning model are the learning rate α and the temperature parameter γ and the free parameters for the model-based are the learning rate α, the temperature parameter γ and prior (the details for the model-free reinforcement learning model can be found in Eq.S1-11 and the details for the model-based reinforcement learning model can be found in Eq.S12-23 in the Supplementary Method). The parameter fitting for these three models was conducted using the `BayesianOptimization' package in Python, first randomly sampling 1000 times and then iterating for an additional 1000 times.”

      We have now incorporated model-based reinforcement learning into our comparison models and placed the descriptions of both model-free and model-based reinforcement learning algorithms in the supplementary materials. We have also changed the criterion for model comparison to Bayesian Information Criterion. As indicated by the results, the performance of the active inference model significantly outperforms both comparison models.

      Sorry, we didn't do model recovery before, but now we have placed the relevant results in the supplementary materials. From the result figures, we can see that each model fits its own generated simulated data well:

      “To demonstrate how reliable our models are (the active inference model, model-free reinforcement learning model, and model-based reinforcement learning model), we run some simulation experiments for model recovery. We use these three models, with their own fitting parameters, to generate some simulated data. Then we will fit all three sets of data using these three models.

      The model recovery results are shown in Fig.S6. This is the confusion matrix of models: the percentage of all subjects simulated based on a certain model that is fitted best by a certain model. The goodness-of-fit was compared using the Bayesian Information Criterion. We can see that the result of model recovery is very good, and the simulated data generated by a model can be best explained by this model.”

      Author response image 2.

      Comment 4:

      Another aspect of the behavioral modeling that's missing is a direct descriptive comparison between model and human behavior, beyond just plotting log-likelihoods (which are a very impoverished measure of what's going on).

      Response 4: We deeply thank you for your comments about the comparison between the model and human behavior. Due to the slight differences between our simulation experiments and real behavioral experiments (the "you can ask" stage), we cannot directly compare the model and participants' behaviors. However, we can observe that in the main text's simulation experiment (Figure 3), the active inference agent's behavior is highly consistent with humans (Figure 4), exhibiting an effective exploration strategy and a desire to reduce uncertainty. Moreover, we have included two additional simulation experiments in the supplementary materials, which demonstrate that active inference may potentially fit a wide range of participants' behavioral strategies.

      Author response image 3.

      (An active inference agent with AL=AI=EX=0. It can accomplish tasks efficiently like a human being, reducing the uncertainty of the environment and maximizing the reward.)

      Author response image 4.

      (An active inference agent with AL=AI=0, EX=10. It will only pursue immediate rewards (not choosing the "Cue" option due to additional costs), but it can also gradually optimize its strategy due to random effects.)

      Author response image 5.

      (An active inference agent with EX=0, AI=AL=10. It will only pursue environmental information to reduce the uncertainty of the environment. Even in "Context 2" where immediate rewards are scarce, it will continue to explore.) (a) shows the decision-making of active inference agents in the Stay-Cue choice. Blue corresponds to agents choosing the "Cue" option and acquiring "Context 1"; orange corresponds to agents choosing the "Cue" option and acquiring "Context 2"; purple corresponds to agents choosing the "Stay" option and not knowing the information about the hidden state of the environment. The shaded areas below correspond to the probability of the agents making the respective choices. (b) shows the decision-making of active inference agents in the Stay-Cue choice. The shaded areas below correspond to the probability of the agents making the respective choices. (c) shows the rewards obtained by active inference agents. (d) shows the reward prediction errors of active inference agents. (e) shows the reward predictions of active inference agents for the "Risky" path in "Context 1" and "Context 2".

      Comment 5:

      The EEG results are intriguing, but it wasn't clear that these provide strong evidence specifically for the active inference model. No alternative models of the EEG data are evaluated.

      Overall, the central claim in the Discussion ("we demonstrated that the active inference model framework effectively describes real-world decision-making") remains unvalidated in my opinion.

      Response 5: We deeply thank you for your comments. We applied the active inference model to analyze EEG results because it best fit the participants' behavioral data among our models, including the new added results. Further, our EEG results serve only to verify that the active inference model can be used to analyze the neural mechanisms of decision-making in uncertain environments (if possible, we could certainly design a more excellent reinforcement learning model with a similar exploration strategy). We aim to emphasize the consistency between active inference and human decision-making in uncertain environments, as we have discussed in the article. Active inference emphasizes both perception and action, which is also what we wish to highlight: during the decision-making process, participants not only passively receive information, but also actively adopt different strategies to reduce uncertainty and maximize rewards.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This paper aims to investigate how the human brain represents different forms of value and uncertainty that participate in active inference within a free-energy framework, in a two-stage decision task involving contextual information sampling, and choices between safe and risky rewards, which promotes a shift from exploration to exploitation. They examine neural correlates by recording EEG and comparing activity in the first vs second half of trials and between trials in which subjects did and did not sample contextual information, and perform a regression with free-energy-related regressors against data "mapped to source space." Their results show effects in various regions, which they take to indicate that the brain does perform this task through the theorised active inference scheme.

      Strengths:

      This is an interesting two-stage paradigm that incorporates several interesting processes of learning, exploration/exploitation, and information sampling. Although scalp/brain regions showing sensitivity to the active-inference-related quantities do not necessarily suggest what role they play, it can be illuminating and useful to search for such effects as candidates for further investigation. The aims are ambitious, and methodologically it is impressive to include extensive free-energy theory, behavioural modelling, and EEG source-level analysis in one paper.

      Response: We would like to express our heartfelt thanks to you for carefully reviewing our work and offering insightful feedback. Your attention to detail and commitment to enhancing the overall quality of our work are deeply admirable. Your input has been extremely helpful in guiding us through the necessary revisions to enhance the work. We have implemented focused changes based on a majority of your comments. Nevertheless, owing to limitations such as time and resources, we have not included corresponding analyses for a few comments.

      Comment 1:

      Though I could surmise the above general aims, I could not follow the important details of what quantities were being distinguished and sought in the EEG and why. Some of this is down to theoretical complexity - the dizzying array of constructs and terms with complex interrelationships, which may simply be part and parcel of free-energy-based theories of active inference - but much of it is down to missing or ambiguous details.

      Response 1: We deeply thank you for your comments about our work’s readability. We have significantly revised the descriptions of active inference, models, research questions, etc. Focusing on active inference and the free energy principle, we have added relevant basic descriptions and unified the terminology. We have added information related to model comparison in the main text and supplementary materials. We presented our regression results in clearer language. Our research focused on the brain's representation of decision-making in uncertain environments, including expected free energy, the value of reducing ambiguity, the value of avoiding risk, extrinsic value, ambiguity, and risk.

      Comment 2:

      In general, an insufficient effort has been made to make the paper accessible to readers not steeped in the free energy principle and active inference. There are critical inconsistencies in key terminology; for example, the introduction states that aim 1 is to distinguish the EEG correlates of three different types of uncertainty: ambiguity, risk, and unexpected uncertainty. But the abstract instead highlights distinctions in EEG correlates between "uncertainty... and... risk" and between "expected free energy .. and ... uncertainty." There are also inconsistencies in mathematical labelling (e.g. in one place 'p(s|o)' and 'q(s)' swap their meanings from one sentence to the very next).

      Response 2: We deeply thank you for your comments about the problem of inconsistent terminology. First, we have unified the symbols and letters (P, Q, s, o, etc.) that appeared in the article and described their respective meanings more clearly. We have also revised the relevant expressions of "uncertainty" throughout the text. In our work, uncertainty refers to ambiguity and risk. Ambiguity can be reduced through continuous sampling and is referred to as uncertainty about model parameters in our work. Risk, on the other hand, is the inherent variance of the environment and cannot be reduced through sampling, which is referred to as uncertainty about hidden states in our work. In the analysis of the results, we focused on how the brain encodes the value of reducing ambiguity (Figure 8), the value of avoiding risk (Figure 6), and (the degree of) ambiguity (Figure S5) during action selection. We also analyzed how the brain encodes reducing ambiguity and avoiding risk during belief update (Figure 7).

      Comment 3:

      Some basic but important task information is missing, and makes a huge difference to how decision quantities can be decoded from EEG. For example:

      - How do the subjects press the left/right buttons - with different hands or different fingers on the same hand?

      Response 3: We deeply thank you for your comments about the missing task information. We have added the relevant content in the Methods section (Contextual two-armed bandit task and Data collection, line 251-253):

      “Each stage was separated by a jitter ranging from 0.6 to 1.0 seconds. The entire experiment consists of a single block with a total of 120 trials. The participants are required to use any two fingers of one hand to press the buttons (left arrow and right arrow on the keyboard).”

      Comment 4:

      - Was the presentation of the Stay/cue and safe/risky options on the left/right sides counterbalanced? If not, decisions can be formed well in advance especially once a policy is in place.

      Response 4: The presentation of the Stay/cue and safe/risky options on the left/right sides was not counterbalanced. It is true that participants may have made decisions ahead of time. However, to better study the state of participants during decision-making, our choice stages consist of two parts. In the first two seconds, we ask participants to consider which option they would choose, and after these two seconds, participants are allowed to make their choice (by pressing the button).

      We also updated the figure of the experiment procedure as below (We circled the time that the participants spent on making decisions).

      Author response image 6.

      Comment 5:

      - What were the actual reward distributions ("magnitude X with probability p, magnitude y with probability 1-p") in the risky option?

      Response 5: We deeply thank you for your comments about the missing task information. We have placed the relevant content in the Methods section (Contextual two-armed bandit task and Data collection, line 188-191):

      “The actual reward distribution of the risky path in "Context 1" was [+12 (55%), +9 (25%), +6 (10%), +3 (5%), +0 (5%)] and the actual reward distribution of the risky path in "Context 2" was [+12 (5%), +9 (5%), +6 (10%), +3 (25%), +0 (55%)].”

      Comment 6:

      The EEG analysis is not sufficiently detailed and motivated.

      For example,

      - why the high lower-filter cutoff of 1 Hz, and shouldn't it be acknowledged that this removes from the EEG any sustained, iteratively updated representation that evolves with learning across trials?

      Response 6: We deeply thank you for your comments about our EEG analysis. The 1Hz high-pass filter may indeed filter out some useful information. We chose a 1Hz high-pass filter to filter out most of the noise and prevent the noise from affecting our results analysis. Additionally, there are also many decision-related works that have applied 1Hz high-pass filtering in EEG data preprocessing (Yau et al., 2021; Cortes et al., 2021; Wischnewski et al., 2022; Schutte et al., 2017; Mennella et al., 2020; Giustiniani et al., 2020).

      Yau, Y., Hinault, T., Taylor, M., Cisek, P., Fellows, L. K., & Dagher, A. (2021). Evidence and urgency related EEG signals during dynamic decision-making in humans. Journal of Neuroscience, 41(26), 5711-5722.

      Cortes, P. M., García-Hernández, J. P., Iribe-Burgos, F. A., Hernández-González, M., Sotelo-Tapia, C., & Guevara, M. A. (2021). Temporal division of the decision-making process: An EEG study. Brain Research, 1769, 147592.

      Wischnewski, M., & Compen, B. (2022). Effects of theta transcranial alternating current stimulation (tACS) on exploration and exploitation during uncertain decision-making. Behavioural Brain Research, 426, 113840.

      Schutte, I., Kenemans, J. L., & Schutter, D. J. (2017). Resting-state theta/beta EEG ratio is associated with reward-and punishment-related reversal learning. Cognitive, Affective, & Behavioral Neuroscience, 17, 754-763.

      Mennella, R., Vilarem, E., & Grèzes, J. (2020). Rapid approach-avoidance responses to emotional displays reflect value-based decisions: Neural evidence from an EEG study. NeuroImage, 222, 117253.

      Giustiniani, J., Nicolier, M., Teti Mayer, J., Chabin, T., Masse, C., Galmès, N., ... & Gabriel, D. (2020). Behavioral and neural arguments of motivational influence on decision making during uncertainty. Frontiers in Neuroscience, 14, 583.

      Comment 7:

      - Since the EEG analysis was done using an array of free-energy-related variables in a regression, was multicollinearity checked between these variables?

      Response 7: We deeply thank you for your comments about our regression. Indeed, we didn't specify our regression formula in the main text. We conducted regression on one variable each time, so there was no need for a multicollinearity check. We have now added the relevant content in the Results section (“EEG results at source level” section, line 337-340):

      “The linear regression was run by the "mne.stats.linear regression" function in the MNE package (Activity ~ Regressor + Intercept). Activity is the activity amplitude of the EEG signal in the source space and regressor is one of the regressors that we mentioned (e.g., expected free energy, the value of reducing ambiguity, etc.).”

      Comment 8:

      - In the initial comparison of the first/second half, why just 5 clusters of electrodes, and why these particular clusters?

      Response 8: We deeply thank you for your comments about our sensor-level analysis. These five clusters are relatively common scalp EEG regions to analyze (left frontal, right frontal, central, left parietal, and right parietal), and we referred previous work analyzed these five clusters of electrodes (Laufs et al., 2006; Ray et al., 1985; Cole et al., 1985). In addition, our work pays more attention to the analysis in source space, exploring the corresponding functions of specific brain regions based on active inference models.

      Laufs, H., Holt, J. L., Elfont, R., Krams, M., Paul, J. S., Krakow, K., & Kleinschmidt, A. (2006). Where the BOLD signal goes when alpha EEG leaves. Neuroimage, 31(4), 1408-1418.

      Ray, W. J., & Cole, H. W. (1985). EEG activity during cognitive processing: influence of attentional factors. International Journal of Psychophysiology, 3(1), 43-48.

      Cole, H. W., & Ray, W. J. (1985). EEG correlates of emotional tasks related to attentional demands. International Journal of Psychophysiology, 3(1), 33-41.

      Comment 9:

      How many different variables are systematically different in the first vs second half, and how do you rule out less interesting time-on-task effects such as engagement or alertness? In what time windows are these amplitudes being measured?

      Response 9 (and the Response for Weaknesses 11): There were no systematic differences between the first half and the second half of the trials, with the only difference being the participants' experience. In the second half, participants had a better understanding of the reward distribution of the task (less ambiguity). The simulation results can well describe these.

      Author response image 7.

      As shown in Figure (a), agents can only learn about the hidden state of the environment ("Context 1" (green) or "Context 2" (orange)) by choosing the "Cue" option. If agents choose the "Stay" option, they will not be able to know the hidden state of the environment (purple). The risk of agents is only related to wh

      ether they choose the "Cue" option, not the number of rounds. Figure (b) shows the Safe-Risky choices of agents, and Figure (e) is the reward prediction of agents for the "Risky" path in "Context 1" and "Context 2". We can see that agents update the expected reward and reduce ambiguity by sampling the "Risky" path. The ambiguity of agents is not related to the "Cue" option, but to the number of times they sample the "Risky" path (rounds).

      In our choosing stages, participants were required to think about their choices for the first two seconds (during which they could not press buttons). Then, they were asked to make their choices (press buttons) within the next two seconds. This setup effectively kept participants' attention focused on the task. And the two second during the “Second choice” stage when participants decide which option to choose (they cannot press buttons) are measured for the analysis of the sensor-level results.

      Comment 10:

      In the comparison of asked and not-asked trials, what trial stage and time window is being measured?

      Response 10: We have added relevant descriptions in the main text. The two second during the “Second choice” stage when participants decide which option to choose (they cannot press buttons) are measured for the analysis of the sensor-level results.

      Author response image 8.

      Comment 11:

      Again, how many different variables, of the many estimated per trial in the active inference model, are different in the asked and not-asked trials, and how can you know which of these differences is the one reflected in the EEG effects?

      Response 11: The difference between asked trials and not-asked trials lies only in whether participants know the specific context of the risky path (the level of risk for the participants). A simple comparison indeed cannot tell us which of these differences is reflected in the EEG effects. Therefore, we subsequently conducted model-based regression analysis in the source space.

      Comment 12:

      The authors choose to interpret that on not-asked trials the subjects are more uncertain because the cue doesn't give them the context, but you could equally argue that they don't ask because they are more certain of the possible hidden states.

      Response 12: Our task design involves randomly varying the context of the risky path. Only by choosing to inquire can participants learn about the context. Participants can only become increasingly certain about the reward distribution of different contexts of the risky path, but cannot determine which specific context it is. Here are the instructions for the task that we will tell the participants (line 226-231).

      "You are on a quest for apples in a forest, beginning with 5 apples. You encounter two paths: 1) The left path offers a fixed yield of 6 apples per excursion. 2) The right path offers a probabilistic reward of 0/3/6/9/12 apples, and it has two distinct contexts, labeled "Context 1" and "Context 2," each with a different reward distribution. Note that the context associated with the right path will randomly change in each trial. Before selecting a path, a ranger will provide information about the context of the right path ("Context 1" or "Context 2") in exchange for an apple. The more apples you collect, the greater your monetary reward will be."

      Comment 13:

      - The EEG regressors are not fully explained. For example, an "active learning" regressor is listed as one of the 4 at the beginning of section 3.3, but it is the first mention of this term in the paper and the term does not arise once in the methods.

      Response 13: We have accordingly revised the relevant content in the main text (as in Eq.8). Our regressors now include expected free energy, the value of reducing ambiguity, the value of avoiding risk, extrinsic value, prediction error, (the degree of) ambiguity, reducing ambiguity, and avoiding risk.

      Comment 14:

      - In general, it is not clear how one can know that the EEG results reflect that the brain is purposefully encoding these very parameters while implementing this very mechanism, and not other, possibly simpler, factors that correlate with them since there is no engagement with such potential confounds or alternative models. For example, a model-free reinforcement learning model is fit to behaviour for comparison. Why not the EEG?

      Response 14: We deeply thank you for your comments. Due to factors such as time and effort, and because the active inference model best fits the behavioral data of the participants, we did not use other models to analyze the EEG data. At both the sensor and source level, we observed the EEG signal and brain regions that can encode different levels of uncertainties (risk and ambiguity). The brain's uncertainty driven exploration mechanism cannot be explained solely by a simple model-free reinforcement learning approach.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Response: We have made point-to-point revisions according to the reviewer's recommendations, and as these revisions are relatively minor, we have only responded to the longer recommendations here.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors)

      I enjoyed reading this sophisticated study of decision-making. I thought your implementation of active inference and the subsequent fitting to choice behaviour - and study of the neuronal (EEG) correlates - was impressive. As noted in my comments on strengths and weaknesses, some parts of your manuscript with difficult to read because of slight collapses in grammar and an inconsistent use of terms when referring to the mathematical quantities. In addition to the paragraphs I have suggested, I would recommend the following minor revisions to your text. In addition, you will have to fill in some of the details that were missing from the current version of the manuscript. For example:

      Recommendation 1:

      Which RL model did you use to fit the behavioural data? What were its free parameters?

      Response 1: We have now added information related to the comparison models in the behavioral results and supplementary materials. We applied both simple model-free reinforcement learning and model-based reinforcement learning. The free parameters for the model-free reinforcement learning model are the learning rate α and the temperature parameter γ, while the free parameters for the model-based approach are the learning rate α, the temperature parameter γ, and the prior.

      Recommendation 2:

      When you talk about neuronal activity in the final analyses (of time-dependent correlations) what was used to measure the neuronal activity? Was this global power over frequencies? Was it at a particular frequency band? Was it the maximum amplitude within some small window et cetera? In other words, you need to provide the details of your analysis that would enable somebody to reproduce your study at a certain level of detail.

      Response 2: In the final analyses, we used the activity amplitude at each point in the source space for our analysis. Previously, we had planned to make our data and models available on GitHub to facilitate easier replication of our work.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors)

      Recommendation 1:

      It might help to explain the complex concepts up front, to use the concrete example of the task itself - presumably, it was designed so that the crucial elements of the active inference framework come to the fore. One could use hypothetical choice patterns in this task to exemplify different factors such as expected free energy and unexpected uncertainty at work. It would also be illuminating to explain why behaviour on this task is fit better by the active inference model than a model-free reinforcement learning model.

      Response 1: Thank you for your suggestions. We have given clearer explanations to the three terms in the active inference formula: the value of reducing ambiguity, the value of avoiding risk, and the extrinsic value (Eq.8), which makes it easier for readers to understand active inference.

      In addition, we can simply view active inference as a computational model similar to model-based reinforcement learning, where the expected free energy represents a subjective value, without needing to understand its underlying computational principles or neurobiological background. In our discussion, we have argued why the active inference model fits the participants' behavior better than our reinforcement learning model, as the active inference model has an inherent exploration mechanism that is consistent with humans, who instinctively want to reduce environmental uncertainty (line 435-442).

      “Active inference offers a superior exploration mechanism compared with basic model-free reinforcement learning  (Figure 4 (c)). Since traditional reinforcement learning models determine their policies solely on the state, this setting leads to difficulty in extracting temporal information (Laskin et al., 2020) and increases the likelihood of entrapment within local minima. In contrast, the policies in active inference are determined by both time and state. This dependence on time (Wang et al., 2016) enables policies to adapt efficiently, such as emphasizing exploration in the initial stages and exploitation later on. Moreover, this mechanism prompts more exploratory behavior in instances of state ambiguity. A further advantage of active inference lies in its adaptability to different task environments (Friston et al., 2017). It can configure different generative models to address distinct tasks, and compute varied forms of free energy and expected free energy.”

      Laskin, M., Lee, K., Stooke, A., Pinto, L., Abbeel, P., & Srinivas, A. (2020). Reinforcement learning with augmented data. Advances in neural information processing systems, 33, 19884-19895.

      Wang, J. X., Kurth-Nelson, Z., Tirumala, D., Soyer, H., Leibo, J. Z., Munos, R., ... & Botvinick, M. (2016). Learning to reinforcement learn. arXiv preprint arXiv:1611.05763.

      Friston, K., FitzGerald, T., Rigoli, F., Schwartenbeck, P., & Pezzulo, G. (2017). Active inference: a process theory. Neural computation, 29(1), 1-49.

      Recommendation 2:

      Figure 1A provides a key example of the lack of effort to help the reader understand. It suggests the possibility of a concrete example but falls short of providing one. From the caption and text, applied to the figure, I gather that by choosing either to run or to raise one's arms, one can control whether it is daytime or nighttime. This is clearly wrong but it is what I am led to think by the paper.

      Response 2: Thank you for your suggestion, which we had not considered before. In this figure, we aim to illustrate that "the agent receives observations and optimizes his cognitive model by minimizing variational free energy → the agent makes the optimal action by minimizing expected free energy → the action changes the environment → the environment generates new observations for the agent." We have now modified the image to be simpler to prevent any possible confusion for readers. Correspondingly, we removed the figure of a person raising their hand and the shadowed house in Figure a.

      Author response image 9.

      Recommendation 3:

      I recommend an overhaul in the labelling and methodological explanations for consistency and full reporting. For example, line 73 says sensory input is 's' and the cognitive model is 'q(s),' and the cause of the sensory input is 'p(s|o)' but on the very next line, the cognitive model is 'p(s|o)' and the causes of sensory input are 'q(s).' How this sensory input s relates to 'observations' or 'o' is unclear, and meanwhile, capital S is the set of environmental states. P seems to refer to the generative distribution, but it also means probability.

      Response 3: Thank you for your advice. Now we have revised the corresponding labeling and methodological explanations in our work to make them consistent. However, we are not sure how to make a good modification to P here. In many works, P can refer to a certain probability distribution or some specific probabilities.

      Recommendation 4:

      Even the conception of a "policy" is unclear (Figure 2B). They list 4 possible policies, which are simply the 4 possible sequences of steps, stay-safe, cue-risky, etc, but with no contingencies in them. Surely a complete policy that lists 'cue' as the first step would entail a specification of how they would choose the safe or risky option BASED on the information in that cue

      Response 4: Thank you for your suggestion. In active inference, a policy actually corresponds to a sequence of actions. The policy of "first choosing 'Cue' and then making the next decision based on specific information" differs from the meaning of policy in active inference.

      Recommendation 5:

      I assume that the heavy high pass filtering of the EEG (1 Hz) is to avoid having to baseline-correct the epochs (of which there is no mention), but the authors should directly acknowledge that this eradicates any component of decision formation that may evolve in any way gradually within or across the stages of the trial. To take an extreme example, as Figure 3E shows, the expected rewards for the risky path evolve slowly over the course of 60 trials. The filter would eliminate this.

      Response 5: Thank you for your suggestion. The heavy high pass filtering of the EEG (1 Hz) is to minimize the noise in the EEG data as much as possible.

      Recommendation 6:

      There is no mention of the regression itself in the Methods section - the section is incomplete.

      Response 6: Thank you for your suggestion. We have now added the relevant content in the Results section (EEG results at source level, line 337-340):

      “The linear regression was run by the "mne.stats.linear regression" function in the MNE package (Activity ∼ Regressor + Intercept, Activity is the activity amplitude of the EEG signal in the source space and regressor is one of the regressors that we mentioned).”

      Recommendation 7:

      On Lines 260-270 the same results are given twice.

      Response 7: Thank you for your suggestion. We have now deleted redundant content.

      Recommendation 8:

      Frequency bands are displayed in Figure 5 but there is no mention of those in the Methods. In Figure 5b Theta in the 2nd half is compared to Delta in the 1st half- is this an error?

      Response 8: Thank you for your suggestion. It indeed was an error (they should all be Theta) and now we have corrected it.

      Author response image 10.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer 1

      Major points:

      R1C1: I appreciate that the data are aligned, in some points, with related studies of this niche. However, it would help the reader to have this alignment explored more extensively in the Discussion as well.

      Answer: We acknowledge that the discussion would benefit from additional comparisons to the available datasets. We thus add the following comment after the first paragraph of the discussion: “Previous studies of the different sub-populations of SVZ progenitors were carried out using transcriptomic approaches based on the expression of various more or less specific markers. These approaches have made it possible to identify quiescent and activated neural stem cells as well as mature neuroblasts, but have been faced with the strong influence of the cell cycle on cell clustering. Indeed, neural progenitors in these studies cycling have been gathered in either “mitotic” clusters (Llorens et al. 2015, Zywitza et al. 2018, Cebrian et al. 2021) or “neural progenitor cells” clusters (Dulken et al. 2017) that had no clear biological significance and hindering identification of subtypes of SVZ cycling progenitors. Our study, combining, for the first time, characterization of Facs-isolated cells and an irradiation-based model of sequential regeneration, allowed to clearly distinguish the molecular profiles of TAP and iNB among cycling progenitors reflecting differences in their in vitro and in vivo respective potentials”.

      R1C2: The data on multilineage differentiation, both in culture and upon engraftment, would be greatly strengthened by quantification. What is the relative yield of TUJ1/DCX-positive cells versus the other marker combinations? Specifically regarding the multilineage differentiation in vitro - because different media conditions are used to generate each lineage, it may be difficult to determine relative yield. Could a differentiation system that allows production of all 3 lineages be used instead?

      If the fraction of non-DCX/TUJ1-labeled progeny is low, particularly in vivo, this might suggest that while multilineage differentiation is possible, it is a much less likely cellular state outcome than production of mature neuroblasts. Some suggested references with examples of the culture conditions, experimental conditions, and discussions highlighted in the public review: Culture conditions that allow simultaneous trilineage differentiation. PMID: 17615304 Influence of culture conditions on potency: similar to issues covered in PMID: 21549325.

      Answer: We agree with the reviewer that quantification of a multilineage differentiation in vitro would improve the characterization of the relative potencies of the different SVZ progenitor.

      According to PMID: 17615304 and PMID: 21549325, and in agreement with our own experience, the only culture condition that allows neurosphere-derived neural progenitors to differentiate in vitro into the three lineages is the removal of mitogens from the culture medium. However, this does not work on freshly isolated SVZ cells, which remain in an undifferentiated state in this condition.

      This is why we chose to use specific differentiation media for each of the 3 lineages as in Figure 1C. It is also for this reason that we performed as many experiments as possible in vivo rather than in vitro as in Figure S2. In the new version, we have added a quantitative analysis of stainings by antibodies against GFAP, CNPase or DCX of GFP-positive cells persisting at IS, where high number of grafted cells were found in Figure S2B. This was performed by using the NIS software measuring eGFP-, GFAP-, CNPase- and DCX-positive areas. The intersection between each marker and eGFP areas was then determined as a percentage of staining (Figure S2C). The results showed that approximately one third of GFP+ cells expressed GFAP or DCX. The quantitative analysis of CNPase expression was complicated by CNPase-positive host cells, but the stronger CNPase staining in eGFP-positive areas clearly revealed the expression of CNPase by a significant proportion of eGFP-positive cells.

      R1C3: Additionally, for claims similar to what is currently made in the text, it would be extremely valuable to confirm the purity of the sort for each population - for example by fixing and staining the sorted fraction with additional antibodies that confirm cell identity.

      Answer: We have previously shown in Daynac et al. 2013 that s-iNB expressed the neuroblast markers CD24 and DCX, but also markers of neural progenitors such as Mash1, a basic helix-loop-helix transcription factor. As suggested by the reviewer, we have further investigated the expression of other markers of neural progenitors by sorted cells. The results showed that the proportion of DLX2+ cells a marker of proliferating progenitors (Doetsch et al. 2002) was very high in aNSC/TAP (98%) and progressively decreased in iNB (82%) and mNB (25%). Similarly, the expression of the transcription factor SOX2 that plays an essential role in the maintenance of neural progenitors (PMID: 25126380) accounted for 78% of aNSC/TAP, 70% of iNB and 17% of mNB.

      Altogether, these new data confirmed the identity of the different cell populations and particularly that of iNB. They are commented at the beginning of the Results and shown in Figure S1.

      R1C4: Line 125: GFAP alone doesn't necessarily indicate a "conversion to NSCs" - this conclusion could be greatly strengthened by inclusion of more markers, particularly at the protein level, or cyto-architectural studies.

      Answer: We agree with the reviewer that GFAP expression alone is not sufficient to evidence the presence of NSC in the SVZ. We have thus modified the text accordingly: “Importantly, eGFP+ cells were present in the SVZ of all the animals transplanted with eGFP+s-iNB and eGFP+s-NSC/TAP (Fig. 1Db, Fig. 1Dc), some of them expressing GFAP indicating the generation of astrocytes, and therefore possibly NSC”.

      R1C5: Could these cellular states be reflective of preferential translation of DCX? It would be very helpful to see the flow cytometry sort data for iNBs / mNBs used in Figure 6, particularly if these cells were also fixed and stained directly for DCX protein.

      Answer: As suggested by the reviewer, freshly FAC-sorted iNB and mNB were fixed and labelled with an anti-DCX monoclonal antibody after permeabilization. As shown in the figure below, we found a higher level of DCX expression in mNB than in iNB. Therefore, this result tends to indicate that the proliferation capacity is somehow related to the level of DCX expression. However, because of the relatively low importance of this result, we decided not to include them in the manuscript.

      Author response image 1.

      Modal histogram representation of DCX expression level in unstained, iNB and mNB cells determined by flow cytometry (FlowJo).

      <R1C6: Figure S8 is all zeroes, showing the GFP+Dcxhigh NBs do not retain proliferative capacity. But we don't get a direct experimental comparison to EGFPnegative/lowDcxlow iNB engraftment, which would strengthen the conclusions of the paper.

      Answer: Unfortunately, there is no method available to analyse the eGFPnegative/lowDcxlow iNB engraftment: by definition, these cells do not express eGFP and the use of a tracker is not appropriate for long periods of time — and thus a high number of cell divisions — after engraftment. However, to us, this control is not needed to conclude that GFP+Dcxhigh iNB have no (or at least a lower) stem cell potential in vivo considering that we have shown in Figure 1 and Table 1 that the whole iNB population is able to generate the different types of neural cells.

      R1C7: Transplant data in Table 1 - a relatively small proportion of transplant derived cells are in OB, etc. Given that A cells are thought to cycle at least once in vivo, is this expected?

      Answer: The reviewer is right considering that a relatively small proportion of transplant derived cells were found in the OB. However, we should consider that we used immunocompetent mice as receivers, which could have significantly reduced the engraftment efficiency, and the migration of engrafted cells outside the injection site.

      R1C8: A caveat is that there is not much functional testing of the proposed model, especially for the interconversion of iNB states suggested by the diagram in Figure 7. The text is relatively restrained in proposing this model, so it is reasonable to keep - but perhaps should be noted that this part of the model will need additional testing.

      Answer: Data presented in Figure 6 clearly suggest that Dcxhigh iNB have similar in vitro potential than Dcxlow iNB, whereas they don’t have such potential in vivo (Figure S10). This suggests that, providing they are in appropriate conditions, Dcxhigh iNB could reacquire stem/progenitor properties. However, we agree that this hypothesis requires further investigation. Therefore, as suggested by the reviewer, we have added in the Figure 7 legend: “Possible interconversion of iNB states would require further experimental confirmation.”

      Additional minor points:

      R1C9: Introduction: the SVZ is described as "the lateral wall" - however, several works in the mouse have also examined the medial wall and callosal roof, as cited later in the intro. Suggest rephrasing the second sentence (line 48) and later sentence (line 66) to clarify that "the SVZ" encompasses all of these subregions, they are not necessarily separate niches. Answer: As indicated by the reviewer, the SVZ encompasses distinct subdomains, with NSCs having a regional identity based on their location in the lateral or septal wall of the ventricle and generating different types of neuronal and glial progeny (PMID:34259628.). To address the reviewer concern about possible confusion and clearly indicate that SVZ encompass several subdomains, we have modified the sentence line 66 as follows: “Since then, the single cell RNA-sequencing has revolutionized the field and has made it possible to precisely elucidate the transcriptome of SVZ cells present in the LW and in the septal wall which also harbors NSC niches”.

      However, we did not modify the line 48, since in this sentence we just indicate that the largest neurogenic niche in the adult brain reside in the LW of the SVZ.

      R1C10: Line 77: "exposure" not "exposition"

      Answer: The error has been corrected in the revised manuscript.

      R1C11: As noted in the Public Review - the use of the term "D1/D2" cells seems likely to confuse readers who are also versed in dentate gyrus neurogenesis. Recommend removing this term from the manuscript.

      Answer: We agree that the D1/D2 terminology could bring confusion, D cells referring to Tanycytes in the hypothalamus. We now refer to iNB1 for DcxLow iNB and iNB2 for DcxHigh iNB in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer 2

      Major comments:

      Lack of rigor

      R2C1: There is a lack of appropriate normalization controls for the microarray data. As there is a decreased level of transcription in quiescent NSCs, there needs to be a cell number control (spike-ins based on cell numbers). Without this normalization, the readout can be greatly skewed.

      Answer: We agree that qNSC are marked by a decreased level of transcription due to quiescence. To overcome this problem in the Clariom assays, we thus chose to calibrate each population, with a fixed amount of cRNA and cDNA using Hela cells as internal control. We totally agree that this method is not optimal but it appears to be efficient in the end. Indeed, it should be noticed that it has been adopted, thus with the same rigor, in other microarray studies published in the field (PMID: 24811379) and also on skeletal muscle cells (PMID: 29273087). Moreover, interestingly the transcriptomic signature of qNSC matches perfectly with those from other studies and particularly to those of related clusters in single cell experiments (including ours, Figure S5). This is probably linked to the fact that more importantly that the number of cells, the main characteristic of these cells is the lack of expression of genes involved in cell proliferation and metabolism. Whatever so, these data confirming previously published are not the main information of our manuscript, which is mainly dedicated to the characterization of proliferating cells, which is not impaired by our choices of normalization.

      R2C2: The absolute segregation of clusters in the single-cell analysis is currently entirely in agreement with the cell cycle stage. This suggests that in the author's analysis, the clustering in 3F is entirely shaped by the cell cycle, making that the defining characteristic of the author's definitions for their cell types. Has an analysis been done that regresses out cell cycle-associated genes to see if there are clusters for different cell states/types that are identified in the absence of cell cycle stage being the defining factor? (Barron and Li, 2016). For example, just as you would see a difference in cluster if you are a quiescent or activated NSC as compared to a neuroblast for example, even without the contribution of cell cycle. These are different cell types.

      Answer: We agree that cell cycle regression would theoretically allow for further discrimination between cycling cells along successive neurogenic stages. We have already performed regression using several methods, including regressing using S- and G2/M-score regression as indicated in the Seurat workflow, removing cell cycle-related PCs from UMAP calculation as used in the Cebrian-Sylla study, and using alternative gene sets such as the ones provided by the tricycle method (PMID: 35101061). These regression methods have all been used on our datasets, the original Cebrian-Sylla datasets and a combination of our datasets with the Cebrian-Sylla original datasets to increase cell number and clustering resolution. However, none of these methods modified the clustering of cycling cells.

      In fact, the strong influence of the cell cycle over clustering highlights the relevance of our depletion/replenishment approaches to decipher the molecular changes masked by the cell cycle, as discussed below.

      R2C3: The use of the DCX-CreERT2 line is a lineage tracing line. Once DCX is expressed, Cre recombines the DNA to allow for fluorescence. It is binary, on or off associated with DCX expression. And once on, it is always on, whether the cell is currently expressing DCX or not. As the authors had previously described a DCXlow condition, the eGFP- cells would not reflect DCXlow, but no DCX at all. And the eGFP+ cells may not be currently expressing DCX anymore. The authors should have used a system where the DCX promoter itself drives fluorescence.

      Answer: We took advantage of the DCX-CreERT2 line to demonstrate that some neural cells that have recently acquired DCX expression (i.e. eGFP+ iNB) could keep (or recover) the potential of neural progenitors in vitro. Of course, some of these GFP+ cells could have stopped to express DCX. This is probably the case when they differentiate into astrocytes and oligodendrocytes in vitro as shown in Figure 6.

      Whatever so, the use of the Dcx promoter as a direct driver of eGFP fluorescence would have totally impeded our capacity to demonstrate such changes in cell fate in vivo because of the impossibility to track oligodendrocytes or astrocytes derived from iNB because of the loss of Dcx expression.

      R2C4: The lack of analysis of images (differentiation, for example) limits the conclusions of the in-vitro data, and the images with unclear staining, limit the conclusions of the in-vivo experiments.

      Answer: This comment is similar to that of R1C2. We have now added a quantification in Figure S2.

      R2C5: The cited difference in splicing differences in cell types was interesting (though did not show up in the transcriptome enrichment analyses Fig S2) and would be something to further pursue, however, this was a very limited analysis. There was no further study of these splicing mediators beyond single-cell data.

      Answer: We now show enrichments of GO terms corresponding to mRNA splicing isoforms in the different types of sorted SVZ cells (Figure S4). This analysis clearly revealed that spliced genes in SVZ cells are mainly involved in neuron development and neurogenesis. Interestingly this also showed that qNSC logically differed from the other cell types by splicing concerning genes involved in mitosis and cell cycle, consistently with their quiescent state. More importantly, GO annotations of differentially spliced isoforms further confirmed that s-TAP and s-iNB have distinct features. We agree with the reviewer that further analysis of splicing mediators would be very important for understanding molecular changes involved in neurogenesis. However, we think that it is largely beyond the scope of this study.

      R2C6: Fig 1C - Show values, not just pictures. You may need to shift your current differentiation paradigm to do so by removing growth factors instead of unique differentiation conditions.

      Answer: See the answer to R1C2.

      R2C7: Fig S1A - Stainings for GFAP and DCX are not clear. It is very hard to distinguish which cells are associated with these signals.

      Answer: This figure (now Figure S2A) shows an eGFP+iNB cell (white arrow) that has reached the rostral migratory stream and expressed DCX (inset a3), but not GFAP (inset a2). This is now indicated in the figure legend. We have also moved the arrow for more clarity.

      R2C8: Fig S1B2 - There is red staining everywhere, so it is very hard to see a specific CNPase signal.

      Answer: We have added a new figure (Fig S2B) distinguishing eGFP+CNPase+ cells (yellow arrows) from eGFP+CNPase- cells (white arrow).

      R2C9: Line 174 - It's the mRNA that you are detecting is being downregulated - be more specific as you are not showing protein downregulation.

      Answer: We specified, "encoding" a major splicing repressor in the Line 174 text to refer to the mRNA: “Interestingly, Ptbp1, encoding a major splicing repressor”.

      R2C10: Line 189 - text in this line have some clusters not shown in the figure - (clusters 6 and 15, DCX+ Ki67+ neuroblasts) - which would be an important thing to visualize. As is shown now, the authors are only showing that iNBs are similar to mitotic TAPs.

      Answer: Clusters 6 and 15 have been added to Figure S5.

      R2C11: Fig 3D-E - Why is cluster 17 called aNSCs (3E) when it has the highest GFAP (Fig 3D). Typically, the highest GFAP cells are qNSCs or astrocytes, not aNSCs.

      Answer: We previously reported that the level of gfap mRNA expression in neural stem cells (quiescent and activated) did not exactly reflect the amount of protein in these cells. This is the reason why we also used the Slc1a3 marker (Glast), which is highly expressed both at the RNA and protein levels in quiescent NSCs (Daynac et al. 2013).

      R2C12: Line 216 - You said in line 216 cluster 13 were astrocytes, then you said in line 227 that cluster 13 was s-qNSC. Which is it?

      Answer: This is due to the fact that we performed two distinct analyses.

      In the first one (line 216), cells were scored based on datasets provided by Cebrian et al. with one dataset containing genes enriched in astrocytes, and another one, genes enriched in quiescent B-cells. Therefore, cluster 13 was shown to contain 73% cells expressing astrocyte markers, whereas cluster 4 gathered cells expressing both qNSC (B-cells, 48%) and astrocyte (52%) genes.

      In the second one (line 227), cells were scored using our transcriptomic signatures of FAC-sorted SVZ cells, which do not include differentiated astrocytes. We demonstrated that the cluster 13 cells only expressed s-qNSC genes.

      R2C13: Line 214 - While other clusters were all named in lines 214-221 that were then further discussed in lines 227-230, clusters 15 and 19 were not. You associate both of those clusters with s-iNB - what was it associated with in the above section?

      Answer: Lines 219-221 have been reworded as follows: Clusters 10, 5, 15, 12, and 8 were defined as cycling progenitors based on the expression of proliferative markers such as Top2a, Mki67, Ascl1. Clusters 1, 3, 7 and 9 were identified as mNB due to the loss of Mki67, Top2 a and Ascl1 expressions and the expression of Robo2 and Dcx. Cluster 19 that have lost Ascl1 but still expressing Top2a and Mki67 together with Robo2 and Dcx appears at the transition between iNB and mNB.

      R2C14: Fig 3I-J - 5 days after irradiation, I would like to see from tissue slices how many cells are dividing compared to 1day post-irradiation and controls. In other paradigms, such as temozolomide experiments (Kalamakis et al), by 5 days we should see less cells in quiescence and more of those quiescent cells exiting quiescence into the cell cycle. Why would there be more cells in quiescence in the irradiated brain? Even if they are radiation resistant, the base number should be comparative between controls and irradiated, which is not what you show in Fig 3I-J. And R2C14)

      Line 234-235 - the text says normalized to numbers of qNSCs which is supposed to be the same (which I agree should be the same). However, your graph in 3I and J shows more qNSCs in irradiated conditions, which would influence greatly and is currently hard to interpret.

      Answer: As stated by the reviewer, there is no increase in the absolute number of quiescent cells in the irradiated SVZ. The reconstitution of SVZ cell populations after 4Gy irradiation has already been studied by our group (Daynac et al. 2013, see Fig. 3F), showing that s-iNB and s-mNB are still under-represented after 5 days, while qNSC are in similar numbers as in unirradiated SVZ. Therefore, this led to an over-representation of quiescent cells and early SVZ progenitors in Figure 3J as compared in Figure 3I.

      R2C15: Fig 6A - the authors show a significant difference in neurospheres between eGFP- (DCX-) and eGFP+ (DCX+) iNBs - as would be expected as DCX suggests a further commitment towards neurogenic fates, yet your population doubling is the same.

      Answer: To determine the population doublings, the medium was changed and cells numbered every 7 days. This condition masked the differences between two cell populations reaching the plateau phase at different time, explaining why eGFP-iNB and eGFP+iNB could not be clearly distinguished by this technique.

      R2C16: Fig 6C - Differentiation data (in-vitro) should be quantified in 6C, just as was mentioned for 1C. These values should be done for both of the populations (eGFP-iNB, and eGFP+iNB) and not just compared to the previous pictures which were on total iNB. Again, numbers are required, not just picture examples.

      Answer: Quantitative data have been given in Figure 6D showing that approximately 60-80% of cells eGFP+iNB are able to differentiate in either neurons, oligodendrocytes or astrocytes. We did not analyze the differentiation of eGFP-iNB since it would not add any supplementary information.

      R2C17: Fig S8 - The authors did not show if the lack of engraftment of eGFP+ cells is due to the transplant (previously you showed only 2/3 worked in a similar paradigm). It would be helpful if the authors would have some means to visualize the DCX low cells to confirm they worked as before in the transplantation (another color? Another type of mouse (Thy1 antigen differences)?) Answer: Unfortunately, the Thy1 antigen has not been documented in mouse subventricular zone progenitors, but only in neurons (PMID: 10813783). Thy1 antigen has also been described in bipotent glial progenitor cell (GCP) from the developing human brain giving rise to oligodendrocytes (PMID: 36931245).

      As shown, in Figure S10 we have performed 5 grafts with s-iNB eGFP+ cells, 2 alone and 3 mixed with eGFP- cells and never found any eGFP+ cells 5 weeks after grafting. Moreover, we did not find any eGFP+ cells in the brains of 3 other animals 2 weeks after grafting with s-iNB eGFP+ cells (These data have been added to Figure S10). As compared to the results described in Figure 1 this clearly shows that iNB DCXhigh are not able to generate persistent cells in the grafted brains similarly as mNB.

      R2C18: Fig S8 - Why were there no eGFP cells even at the injection site? DCX expression promotes migration, indeed DCX expression becomes very high in cells in the SVZ as they begin to exit to go to the migratory stream. If one didn't see migration, one would expect you would still have survival. Currently, the authors show no cells at 5 weeks, however, they would need to show earlier timepoints as well to determine what is happening with these cells. It is possible these GFP+ cells are not even expressing DCX anymore (see above).

      Answer: As stated above, we did not find any GFP+ cells in the brains of 3 other animals 2 weeks after grafting with s-iNB eGFP+ cells (see Figure S10).

      R2C19: Line 320 - the authors suggest a subpopulation of NEURONS continues to divide and cite 2 works from the 1990s showing proliferating SVZ cells can differentiate. Our knowledge of this system has come dramatically forward since the 1990s as well as technologically, and to date, neurons have not been shown to divide.

      Answer: We apologize for this lack of clarity, as we agree that neurons correspond to differentiated non-cycling cells, but we used the terminology used in these articles. The incorrect part of the sentence Line 320 has thus been deleted from the text.

      R2C20: Fig 7 - The whole figure is based on changing levels of RSR genes which were not confirmed in any way to be involved in any of these stages, only descriptively in single-cell analyses.

      Answer: As stated above, in our opinion, further characterization of the involvement of RSR genes in neurogenesis is largely beyond the scope of our manuscript. Nevertheless, we think that the role of RSR genes in neurogenesis is an important question that should be addressed in further studies.

      Overstatement of findings

      R2C21: Fig 1 - Authors did not compare all cell types in each condition but made overstatements about their relationships to each other between graphs. There should also be separate graphs showing all cell types at 4% and a separate one at 20%.

      Answer: In the revised version, Figure 1 shows the graph comparing all cell types at 4%O2 and a separate one at 20% as requested by the reviewer. The graphs clearly shows that 4%O2 promotes iNB proliferation compared to the 20% condition.

      R2C22: Fig 1D-b2 - Why does DCX look nuclear? One can't say they are only NSCs if they are GFAP as astrocytes also express GFAP. The authors would need another marker to separate those populations. In the text, the authors say expressing GFAP (line 124) which means NSC, but then in line 127 expressing GFAP means astrocytes - which further shows you need additional markers to validate those 2 different cell types. Answer: DCX nuclear translocation has been shown to improve cellular proliferation (PMID:32050972).

      As indicated in R1C4. The text has been modified as follows: “Importantly, eGFP+ cells were present in the SVZ of all the animals transplanted with s-iNB eGFP+ and s-NSC/TAP eGFP+ (Fig. 1Db, 1Dc), some of them expressing GFAP indicating the generation of astrocytes, and therefore possibly NSC”.

      R2C23: Fig S2 - The transcriptome signature for s-iNBs is very similar to s-TAP, basically suggesting the iNBs are further along in cell cycle.

      Answer: This is now the Figure S3. Functional enrichment analysis of individual transcriptome signatures revealed that both s-TAP and s-iNB are enriched in genes related to the cell cycle although with different GO terms enrichments. Indeed, s-TAP are enriched in genes related to G1, G1/S and S phase (but with low -log10 adjusted p-values) and s-iNB with genes related to cell cycle mitosis and M phase (with high -log10 adjusted p-values).

      We have previously shown that around 33 % s-iNB have DNA content>2N, versus around 26% of s-TAP and s- aNSC (Daynac et al. 2013), which is in accordance with GO terms enrichments. However, these data have also shown that most s-iNB and s-TAP are in G1, indicating that siNB are not just further along mitosis than TAP.

      Moreover, our transcriptomic data clearly show that s-iNB are distinct from s-TAP: 1) according to principal component analyses (Figure 2B et C), the whole transcriptome of s-TAP is closer to that of s-aNSCs than to that of s-iNB (10% variations in PCA2), 2) the heatmap in Figure 2D shows that they have different RSR genes expression profiles, 3) the new Figure S4 shows that GO annotations of differentially spliced isoforms further confirmed that s-TAP and s-iNB have distinct features, and 5) Figure S5 shows that s-iNB expressed genes associated to either TAP or NB that have been described in previous studies, whereas s-TAP did not express genes associated to NB, but look closer to aNSC. Finally, scRNAsq cell clusters related to s-iNB are distinct from the cluster related to s-TAP as shown 1) in Figure 3D and 2) in Figure 4.

      R2C24: Fig 3 - The lack of information about timepoint 0 after irradiation, and when proliferation and cell cycle entry begins again following irradiation, limits our interpretation of the single-cell irradiated data.

      Answer: We have previously reported the relative abundance of each SVZ neural progenitors in the young adult mouse brain in several papers. Particularly, we based our interpretation on our SVZ irradiation model reported in Daynac et al. 2013 demonstrating a radio resistance of qNSC re-entering into the cell cycle as early as 2 days after 4Gy irradiation successively regenerating aNSC, TAP then iNB and mNB.

      R2C25: Fig S3 - These results effectively show that the s-aNSCs and s-TAPs are actually less specific when compared to that same identity in other studies, and that the iNBs are most similar to mitotic TAPs. This supports what was mentioned above, which is that the transcriptional signatures are very similar between the s-TAPs and i-NBs, showing these are not a unique cell state, but just a bit further along mitosis within the TAP cell state.

      Answer: This is now the Figure S5. In this figure, we show that s-iNB expressed genes associated to either TAP or NB that have been described in previous studies, whereas s-TAP did not express genes associated to NB, but look like closer to aNSC. As indicated above in R2C23, s-iNB are not just a bit further along mitosis within the TAP cell state. Indeed, we give several data showing that s-iNB and s-TAP have different transcriptomic profiles.

      R2C26: Fig 4B - The focus on Ptbp1 as being associated with the iNB cluster border to mNB is expected as all previous studies of Ptbp1 have focused on its role in the progression of other cell types through the cell cycle, its control of cell cycle regulators, and a cell cycle mRNA regulon (Monzon-Casanova et al, 2018, 2019, 2020). This further supports these analyses are specifically defined by cell cycle stages.

      Answer: We totally agree that Ptbp1 expression distinguishes cycling cells from postmitotic neuroblasts in accordance with previously published paper, and that based on this unique gene we cannot find any differences between cycling cells ie. aNSC, TAP and iNB. However, as shown in the manuscript and stated above (R2C23 and 25), these cells can be distinguished by their respective expression of many other genes, including other RSR genes.

      R2C27: Line 281-282 is an overstatement - the authors suggest that this is a new type of cycling neural progenitor - when all studies point to it being the end of mitosis TAPs as they go on their way to mNBs. This clearly shows a trajectory and not a defined, binary cell type.

      Answer: We agree with this statement that the use of the word "type" was misleading, and changed it to "stage" to better reflect that s-iNB are a distinct stage along the differentiation process according to our pseudotime cell-trajectory analysis.

      Author response image 2.

      Pseudotime analysis using Monocle 3 (excluding the cluster 13 corresponding to astrocytes and starting from s-qNSC) revealed two branches starting from s-TAP, one towards cell cycle the other towards neuronal differentiation.

      minor comments:

      R2C28: Fig 3D - For ease, please define what you called the clusters in 3D - not just cluster numbers

      Answer: We chose not to call the clusters in 3D because their identification (Group names) is based on data presented after in Figures 3E, F and G.

      R2C29: Fig 3E-F - Show astrocytes by text in 3E and F

      Answer: As discussed above, astrocytes cannot be shown in these figures because they are based on our signatures which did not include astrocyte signature.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this study from Belato, Knight, and co-workers, the authors investigated the Rec domain of a thermophilic Cas9 from Geobacillus stearothermophilus (GeoCas9). The authors investigated three constructs, two individual subdomains of Rec (Rec1 and Rec2) and the full Rec domain. This domain is involved in binding to the guide RNA of Cas9, as well as the RNA-DNA duplex that is formed upon target binding. The authors performed RNA binding and relaxation experiments using NMR for the wild-type domain as well as two-point mutants. They observed differences in RNA binding activities as well as the flexibility of the domain. The authors also performed experiments on fulllength GeoCas9 to determine whether these biophysical differences affect the RNA binding or cleavage activity. Although the authors observed some changes in the thermal stability of the mutant GeoCas9-gRNA complex, they did not observe substantial differences in the cleavage activities of the mutant GeoCas9 variants.

      Overall, this manuscript provides a detailed biophysical analysis of the GeoCas9 Rec domain. The NMR assignments for this construct should prove very useful, and the results may provide the grounds for future engineering of higher fidelity variants of GeoCas9. While the NMR results are generally well presented, it is unclear how the results on the isolated Rec domain related to the overall function of full-length GeoCas9. In addition, some conclusions are overstated and not fully supported by the evidence provided. The following major points should be addressed by the authors.

      (1) Many of the results rely on the backbone resonance assignments of the three constructs that were used, and the authors have done an excellent job of assigning the Rec1 and Rec2 constructs. However, it is unclear from the descriptions in the text how the full-length Rec construct was assigned. Were these assignments made based on assignments for the individual domains? The authors state that the spectra of individual domains and RecFL overlay very well, but there appear to be many resonances that have chemical shift differences or are only present in one construct. As it stands, it is unclear how the resonances were assigned for residues whose chemical shifts were perturbed, making it difficult to interpret many of the results.

      The Reviewer raises an important oversight. In Lines 491-493, we clarify that we were able to transfer the assignments using spectral overlays of the individual domains with GeoRec (i.e. careful analysis of the data in Figure S3). We also cite two new references where a similar approach was applied to Cas9.

      (2) The minimal gRNA that was used for the Rec-gRNA binding experiments is unlikely to be a good mimic for the full-length gRNA, as it lacks any of the secondary structure that is most specifically recognized by the REC lobe and the rest of the Cas9 protein. The majority of this RNA is a "spacer" sequence, but spacers are variable, so this sequence is arbitrary. Thus, the interactions that the authors are observing most likely represent non-specific interactions between the Rec domains and RNA. The authors also map chemical shift perturbations and line broadening on structural models with an RNA-DNA duplex bound, but this is not an accurate model for how the Rec domain binds to a single-stranded RNA (for which there is no structural model). Thus, many of the conclusions regarding the RNA binding interface are overstated.

      The Reviewer again raises an important point. We have added a section of text explaining the rationale for truncating the gRNA for binding experiments with NMR (Lines 223-235). We chose the 5’end of the gRNA containing the spacer sequence based on crystal structures of NmeCas9 and SpCas9 that show the Rec lobe interacting with this section of nucleic acid. The newly published GeoCas9 cryo-EM structure bound to gRNA, which overlaid well with the NmeCas9 structure, also suggested that this portion of the gRNA could interact with Rec.

      Figures S11 and S12 show our gradual truncation of the gRNA and Rec construct to achieve useful atomic detail. Ultimately, a 39nt gRNA containing a 23 base pair spacer sequence was chosen for this study to retain the NMR signal of the complex and because several structures suggested this 39nt sequence would be long enough to interact with the entire Rec lobe.

      To investigate the effect of the spacer sequence, we have now measured binding affinities via MST between GeoRec and a 39nt Tnnt2 gRNA and a 39nt gRNA from PDB: 8UZA, containing a different spacer sequence used in the very recent GeoCas9 cryo-EM structure. The observed trends for each gRNA are consistent across the samples. We also measured WT, K267E, and R332A GeoCas9 affinity for the full-length Tnnt2 and PDB:8UZA gRNAs.

      Lastly, we used a new cryo-EM structure of GeoCas9 bound to gRNA (PDB: 8JTR) to better define the interface for NMR CSPs and line broadening and have adjusted the language in this section.

      (3) The authors include microscale thermophoresis (MST) data for the Rec constructs binding to the minimal gRNA. These data suggest that all three Rec variants have very similar Kd's for the RNA. Given these similarities, it is unclear why the RNA titration experiments by NMR yielded such different results. Moreover, in the Discussion, the authors state that the NMR titration data are consistent with the MST-derived Kd values. This conclusion appears to be overstated given the very small differences in affinities measured by MST.

      MST and NMR experiments describing the weakened binding affinity of GeoRec and GeoRec2 for the Tnnt2 gRNA agree with each other (Figure 5). However, additional MST experiments with a different gRNA sequence (from PDB: 8UZA) and with fulllength GeoCas9 (new Figure 7) have provided new insight for us to soften and reframe the Discussion to avoid overstatement. See Lines 263-282 and 375-385.

      (4) While the authors have performed some experiments to help place their findings on the isolated Rec domain in the context of the full-length protein, these experiments do not fully support the conclusions that the authors draw about the meaning of their NMR results. The two Cas9 variants that were explored via NMR have no effect on Cas9 cleavage activity, and it is unclear from the data provided whether they have any effect on GeoCas9 binding to the full sgRNA. This makes it difficult to determine whether the observed differences in RNA binding and dynamics of the isolated Rec domain have any consequence in the context of the full protein.

      We have since measured the binding affinities of full-length GeoCas9 to full-length gRNA. (new Figure 7) We have also added a comment in the Discussion section describing how both GeoRec and GeoRec2 domain variants bind the truncated RNA with weaker affinity than the WT, but this biophysical effect does not translate to GeoCas9 with its full-length gRNA. We describe this finding as an explanation for why the single-point mutants have minimal effect of GeoCas9 cleavage activity. See Lines 375-385.

      (5) The authors state in multiple places that the K267E/R332A mutant enhanced GeoCas9 specificity. Improved specificity refers to a situation in which the efficiency of cleavage of a perfectly matched target improves in comparison to a mismatched target. This is not what the authors observed for the double mutant. Instead, the cleavage of the perfect target was drastically reduced, in some cases to a larger degree than for the mismatched target. The double mutant does not appear to have improved specificity, it has simply decreased cleavage efficiency of the enzyme.

      The conclusion has been reframed to suggest that the K267E/R332A double mutant has decreased cleavage efficiency of the enzyme but does not enhance GeoCas9 specificity. We discuss an interesting contrast, namely that mutations in the SpCas9 Rec lobe alter its specificity, which is at times accompanied by a loss of overall activity. We also speculate on why this may not be the case in GeoCas9, considering some very recent (unpublished at the time of initial submission) structural and biochemical data. See Lines 414-418.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript from Belato et al. used advanced NMR approaches and a mutagenesis campaign to probe the conformational dynamics of the recognition lobe (Rec) of the CRISPR Cas9 enzyme from G. stearothermophilus (GeoCas9). Using truncated and full-length constructs they assess the impacts of two different point mutations have on the redistribution and timescale of these motions and assess gRNA recognition and specificity. Single point mutations in the Rec domain in a Cas9 from a related species had profound impacts on- and off-target DNA editing, therefore the authors reasoned analogous mutations in GeoCas9 would have similar effects. However, despite a redistribution of local motions and changes in global stability, their chosen mutations had little impact on DNA editing in the context of the full-length enzyme. Their studies highlight the species-specific complexity of interdomain communication and allosteric mechanisms used by these multi-domain endonucleases. Despite these negative results, their study is highly rigorous, and their approach will broadly support understanding how the activity and specificity of these enzymes can be engineered to tune activity and limit off-target cleavage by these enzymes.

      Strengths:

      (1) Atomistic investigation of the conformational dynamics of the GeoCas9 gRNA recognition lobe (GeoRec), probing dynamics on a broad range of timescales from ps to ms using advanced NMR approaches will be broadly interesting to both the structural biology and CRISPR engineering communities.

      (2) Highly rigorous biophysical studies that push the boundaries of current techniques, provide insight into local dynamics of the GeoRec domain that serve to propagate allosteric information and potentially regulate enzymatic activity.

      (3) The study highlights the complexities of understanding interdomain communication in Cas9 enzymes since analogous mutations in different species have different effects on target recognition and cleavage.

      (4) The type of structural and dynamic insights derived from this study design could serve as foundational information to guide a rational design strategy aimed at improving the selectivity and reducing the off-target effects of Cas9 enzymes.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Despite the rigor of the experiments, the mutations chosen by the authors do not have a profound effect on the overall substrate affinity or activity of GeoCas9 rendering little mechanistic insight into allosteric communication in this particular Cas9. However, the double mutant K267E/R332A has a more pronounced effect on the cleavage of WT and mismatched (at nucleotides 19 and 20) DNA substrates while minimally affecting the cleavage of mismatched (at nucleotides 5 and 6), suggesting more could be learned about the allosteric mechanism from the detailed characterization of this mutant.

      We thank the Reviewer for this comment. While we have included new binding experiments with full-length GeoCas9 and gRNAs (new Figure 7), the addition of new MD simulations (new Figure 6) better address this point. MD examined our single and double mutants, as well as the recently published high-specificity iGeoCas9, and reported the degree of conformational sampling and nucleic acid contacts and binding energies.

      The simulations show that our mutations induce some, but not the full extent of the effect of iGeoCas9 (with one mutation in GeoRec and many others in the adjacent WED domain), implying that further engineering of GeoRec to mimic iGeoCas9’s properties can have profound functional outcomes. Future efforts to mutate GeoRec will be leverage this strategy. See Lines 309-342.

      (2) Follow-up experiments with other residues that were identified as being highly dynamic might affect substrate recognition and cleavage activity in different ways providing additional insight.

      The Reviewer is correct. While beyond this initial scope, new MD simulations (see the response directly above) and NMR resonances distally affect by gRNA (via CSP or relaxation dispersion) will be used identify the primary targets for this analysis.

      (3) Details regarding the authors' experimental approach are incomplete such as a description of the model used to fit the CD data, a detailed explanation of the global fitting of the relaxation dispersion data describing how the best-fit model was selected, and the description of the ModelFree fitting of fast timescale dynamics is incomplete.

      We thank the Reviewer for pointing out these oversights. We have now included the fitting equation in the CD Methods section.

      We included new Figures S8-S10 with the individual relaxation dispersion curves and note in the Methods that global fits were deemed superior based on the Akaike Information Criterion. For WT, the AIC showed the global fit to be ~10-fold better. For K267E, the global model was 4-fold better, and for R332A, the global model was 6-fold better.

      We have included a more detailed description of CPMG and Model-free fitting. See Lines 520-526.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      The authors explore the role of Rec domains in a thermophilic Cas9 enzyme. They report on the crystal structure of part of the recognition lobe, its dynamics from NMR spin relaxation and relaxation-dispersion data, its interaction mode with guide RNA, and the effect of two single-point mutations hypothesised to enhance specificity. They find that mutations have small effects on Rec domain structure and stability but lead to significant rearrangement of micro- to milli-second dynamics which does not translate into major changes in guide RNA affinity or DNA cleavage specificity, illustrating the inherent tolerance of GeoCas9. The work can be considered as a first step towards understanding motions in GeoCas9 recognition lobe, although no clear hotspots were discovered with potential for future rational design of enhanced Cas9 variants.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Suggestions for improved or additional experiments, data, or analyses

      (1) Please update the sentences on lines 100-105 and the Methods to clarify how the RecFL assignments were obtained. If RecFL was assigned based on the assignments for Rec1 and Rec2, please describe in the Methods how the shifted resonances were handled. Please also provide chemical shift perturbation profiles for the truncated constructs versus the full-length Rec construct.

      We have now added text (Lines 491-493) and two new references explaining the GeoRec (full-length) assignment.

      We appreciate this point. We have now provided a new Figure S9 with analysis of CSPs and line broadening in truncated constructs (GeoRec2 only). See also Lines 263-282. We also show a similar structural response to mutation in full-length GeoRec and GeoRec2 NMR CSPs (Figure 2 and Figure S5).

      We have provided the CSPs for each construct, relative to the full-length GeoRec domain, Author response image 1. In most cases, the largest CSPs occur at resonances on the periphery of the spectra, retaining the ability to unambiguously assign it.

      Author response image 1.

       

      (2) It is unclear whether the differences in Kd's for the Rec-gRNA interactions are statistically significant, given the errors associated with the values. Can the authors further analyze these data to determine statistical significance? If they are not found to be significantly different, the authors should soften all conclusions related to the observed differences.

      Statistical significance was calculated for all MST data and Figures 5 and 7 have been updated to reflect this

      (3) As mentioned above, it seems likely that the Rec-RNA binding that is observed is non-specific. Have the authors tried MST with another 39 nt RNA? Are there differences in affinities for the Rec constructs?

      We have done MST with another 39nt RNA. The affinity for each gRNA (Tnnt2 vs 8UZA) is similar for WT and K267E, and a factor of ~4 weaker for R332A with 8UZA gRNA. The trend is the same, that WT Rec has a (statistically significant) stronger affinity for the gRNA compared to the mutants.

      (4) Have the authors tried MST with full-length GeoCas9 and the sgRNA? The current data on the thermal stability of the RNP's is interesting, but a more direct measurement of the affinity of the Cas9-sgRNA complexes would provide stronger evidence of the effects of the mutations.

      The Reviewer makes an excellent suggestion. We have now generated Cy5-labeled full-length gRNAs and conducted MST with full-length GeoCas9 (new Figure 7). The binding affinities to multiple guides do not vary significantly. We have discussed this, and its implications, in Lines 376-385.

      (5) One potential issue with not observing differences between the three Cas9 variants' cleavage activity is that the activity of these purified proteins appears to be very low in comparison to previous studies of GeoCas9. There are significant differences in the expression protocol used by the authors of the current study and previous studies. Have the authors attempted to replicate the expression and purification protocol of previous reports? This may improve the enzymatic activity and allow for a more detailed investigation of cleavage between the three variants (e.g. by performing time-course cleavage assays).

      The expression protocol of GeoCas9 is identical to those of previous studies. This was a written mistake on our part, which has now been corrected in the methods section. We apologize for this oversight.

      Recommendations for improving the writing and presentation

      The introduction of the manuscript is reasonable for specialists who are very familiar with Cas9 function, but it does not contain important details that may be unknown to most readers. The authors do not introduce the domains of Cas9 in the Introduction section. A brief description of the domains that are important to this work should be provided. For example, what is the role of the Rec lobe? This is not introduced until lines 110-111, after some discussion of the authors' initial work on these domains. For a broad audience, it would also be helpful to define the two catalytic domains of the protein. A paragraph describing the general architecture of Cas9 and the overall mechanism of Cas9, including allostery and domain movement, would be very helpful to a general audience. There are elements of this throughout the manuscript, but it would be better to have everything described in a single location at the beginning of the Introduction.

      The Reviewer makes an excellent point. We have added significant clarifying text to the Introduction (Lines 42-47, 52-58, and 61-66). We have also amended Figure 1 to highlight the domain arrangement of GeoCas9 and construct domain boundaries.

      Minor corrections to the text

      (1) Lines 37-38: The statement about GeoCas9 activity should reference citation.

      We have added two references here.

      (2) Line 39-40: "The widely-studied SpCas9, as well as GeoCas9, are Type-II CRISPR systems". Cas9 is only a single component of a larger system that contains other proteins and DNA elements, so it would be more appropriate to say "are effectors of type II CRISPR systems" or "are signature proteins of type II CRISPR systems". Also, please define the organism from which SpCas9 is derived. It may be more appropriate to use the three-letter abbreviation "SpyCas9" to be consistent with the abbreviation used for GeoCas9.

      We have revised the initial suggestion and specified the organisms. We have, however, chosen to keep “SpCas9” for consistency with our prior work and the work of many several others, including Doudna et al and Zhang et al.

      (3) Lines 39-42: "only the Type II-C class to which GeoCas9 belongs has been rigorously validated for mammalian genome editing". SpCas9 is from a type II-A system and is by far the most commonly used ortholog for genome editing, including in ongoing clinical trials. It is unlikely that any of the type II-C Cas9 orthologs have been more rigorously validated than SpCas9. The reference cited in this sentence also does not support this statement and is a review written in 2017, so would be unlikely to reflect the current state of the art. Please revise this sentence.

      We have softened and revised this text (Lines 42-47).

      (4) Lines 48-52: It would be helpful to describe the dynamic movement of the HNH domain (and cite appropriate references) prior to describing the authors' previous work. As it stands, it is unclear how this sentence would be understood by a non-specialist.

      We have added text in Lines 61-68

      (5) Lines 44-45: The wording is a little unclear, as it sounds like the guide RNA, rather than the nuclease domains, is responsible for dsDNA cleavage. The sentence could be adjusted to remove "and cleave". Cleavage by the HNH and RuvC domains could be described in a separate sentence.

      We have revised this text. See Lines 49-50.

      (6) Lines 46-48: This segment of the sentence suggests that PAM recognition triggers the allosteric events that result in the movement of the nuclease domain (HNH). This is misleading, as HNH movement is triggered by the complete formation of an R-loop, rather than initial PAM recognition. Please revise this sentence.

      We have revised the text in Lines 52-58.

      (7) Lines 62-65: The first sentence is unclear. The specificity of many protein-nucleic acid complexes is well understood and is also readily quantified by several wellestablished methods. Are the authors specifically referring to the structural basis for Cas9 specificity? Although Cas9 specificity is highly complex, it has been studied structurally in great detail and should not be described as "poorly understood" without some discussion of what is already known. These sentences also elide the fact that Cas9 specificity has been successfully altered via rational design, based on our general framework for understanding protein-nucleic acid interactions. Please clarify these statements.

      The Reviewer makes an important point. We have softened this statement (Lines 8081). We have clarified that we intended to refer to structural characterization of large, multidomain proteins and nucleic acid complexes via NMR. We agree that many critical structural studies comment on Cas9 dynamics and specificity in great detail, including at the domain-level.

      (8) Lines 62-68: It seems like the citations do not match up with the references in this section. The references for citations 8-10 are not about DNA repair complexes, references 11-14 are not papers about the directed evolution of Cas9 (should these be 16-17?), and the references for the HNH domain movements should be for citations 1821.

      We apologize for the confusion, and the references have been updated

      (9) Lines 116-119: The description of the RNAs used is unclear, as the segments that are described add up to 141 not 101. Also, what is meant by "110-nt guide sequence intrinsic to GeoCas9"? Is this referring to the tracrRNA segment? It may be helpful if the RNA sequences shown in the accompanying figures were replaced with cartoons of the RNAs that were used, with the different segments labeled.

      We now describe the gRNA sequences in detail in new Table S4. We also expanded a bit in the text (Lines 224-235).

      (10) Line 121-123: This sentence should contain reference(s).

      We have changed the sentence.

      (11) Line 156-158: Reference 19 did not report or investigate any higher specificity SpCas9 variants, is this citation correct?

      We have removed the reference from this line. Ref. 19 (now Ref 23, Slaymaker et al) should be correct.

      (12) Lines 162-166: Please provide a sequence and structural alignment for SpCas9 and GeoCas9 to support the claim that the amino acid substitutions are equivalent between the two orthologs.

      We have updated Figure 1 to display the similarity in domain arrangement between SpCas9 and GeoCas9 and have noted similarity in structure and sequence of these proteins in Figure S1.

      (13) Lines 234-236: There is insufficient evidence to conclude that the alterations in protein dynamics caused the changes in gRNA interaction. The substitutions are charge swap substitutions, and it is equally (if not more) feasible that these substitutions decrease the potential for favorable electrostatic interactions.

      (14) Lines 261-265: While the RNP stability for R332A is clearly decreased in comparison to WT, the authors' conclusions regarding K267E seem overstated. The difference in Tm for the K267E mutant and WT RNPs is not very large and may be within error, especially given that the CD data are noisy. Similarly, on lines 321-322, only one of the mutations really impacted the stability of the full-length RNP.

      We have softened this text in Lines 303-305.

      (15) Lines 336-338: HiFi-SpCas9 does not contain four mutations, it is a single R691A point mutation, as reported in reference 17. This sentence and subsequent sentences should be updated.

      Here, the “final form” of HiFi SpCas9 contains the R691A and three additional mutations. The Reviewer is correct, though, that the R691A mutation alone was enough to enhance the specificity of WT SpCas9. We have clarified this point on Line 156.

      Minor corrections to the figures

      (16) The cryo-EM structures of GeoCas9 have recently been released on the PDB. The authors may now update figures to include the experimentally determined structure, rather than an AlphaFold model and update the text accordingly.

      We have made this change.

      (17) For Figure S4, please describe what the red dashed lines are in the top three graphs. Are these the Tm values determined for the two individual Rec domains? How do these compare to the inflection points for the two transitions in the full Rec construct (could be determined by plotting the first derivative data)? Please provide information in the Methods on how the temperature-dependent CD spectral data were fit and Tm's were determined.

      We have made these changes in the Figure S4 caption and Methods section.

      (18) The blue box denoting the unassigned region is missing from Figure 2C-D, although it is mentioned in the figure legend.

      We have added the blue box denoting the unassigned linker.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The manuscript is well-written and generally clear and concise. The following recommendations will help improve the readability and include details important for interpreting the results.

      (1) In general, the figures are too small and difficult to interpret, it was hard to discern the differences described in the text (e.g. Figure 1A, E, 4A, etc.), the text labels are illegible in several panels (e.g. Figure 4A, S8B, C, etc.), the chosen colors were difficult to interpret in the structures (Figure 4C, S8G, H, etc.), as well as residues with motion (as balls) were difficult to make out due to size and color usage. Similar story for the dispersion curves (Fig 3A), the plots are chaotically crowded, and it is impossible to interpret (or see) the undelaying data.

      We apologize for these difficulties. We have now revised the Figures in several ways. First, we greatly simplified Figure 1, such that it now includes only the domain arrangement, structure, and initial NMR details for GeoRec (essentially A-B of the old Figure 1).

      Second, we have reformatted Figure 3 to make the structure maps a bit easier to see.

      We certainly appreciate the point made by the Reviewer about the dispersion curves. Our intent here is to illustrate the number of curves that can be fit globally, which substantially increase for K267E and R332A GeoRec3, versus WT. As a compromise, we have included the individual dispersion curves in the SI for each variant. We have also thinned the line weights for each fit, and added NMR order parameters to the main figure to round out the discussion of dynamics.

      Third, we have compiled the gRNA titration into Figure 4, removing the CD analysis (to SI), MST data (new Fig 5), and unclear structure maps to focus only on the NMR spectra here.

      Fourth, we have created a new Figure 5 focusing on MST studies of two gRNAs with GeoRec, which now include bar charts of affinities with appropriate statistics.

      Much of the data trimmed from the prior version of the manuscript figures has been moved to Supporting Information. We have also created two new main text Figures (6 & 7) based on MD simulations and MST studies of full-length GeoCas9 and gRNAs to provide additional context for interpreting the results in prior figures.

      (2) Line 39 - this sentence is awkward, could you rephrase it?

      We have rephrased this sentence.

      (3) There is inconsistent labeling, in Figure S2 the full-length construct is referred to as GeoRecFL while in other places in the text and in Figure 1 it is called GeoRec.

      We have changed all references to the intact Rec lobe to “GeoRec.”

      (4) It would be helpful to include a cartoon of the domain organization of GeoCas9 and indicate the truncation mutants that were studied in this manuscript.

      We included the domain organization in Figure 1A and indicated the amino acid boundaries for each construct on the figure and in the Methods section.

      (5) There is significant line broadening that occurs during the titration, not all line broadening is due to changes in rotational correlation time, and differential line broadening may reveal interactions of residues that are in the intermediate regime, certainly, uM affinities measured by the authors, would suggest this, therefore, a plot of I/Io might inform on binding sites, and it might be useful to look at differential broadening as a function of titrant added.

      The Reviewer makes a very good point. In addition to the data in Figure 4, which show a clear reduction in gRNA-induced line broadening in larger GeoRec constructs, we included new titration data on smaller GeoRec2 domains (Figure S12). Here, we conducted an I/I0 analysis and added some clarifying language about the possible nature of line broadening in these samples. See new Figure S12 and Lines 268-274.

      (6) Line 126 "Importantly, many resonances are also minimally impacted." This statement is unclear since from the plots shown in Figure 1D, it seems that many of the residues are impacted by RNA titration, see the point about differential broadening above, this sort of plot may help pick apart residues that broaden due to RNA contacts (rather than changing rotational correlation).

      We have removed this statement, in addition to our revisions above regarding the line broadening.

      (7) Line 137 - I am not sure that a max chemical shift of 0.15 ppm constitutes "strong chemical shift perturbations"

      The Reviewer makes a good point. We have changed “strong” to “significant” which refers to 1 standard deviation above the 10% trimmed mean of the data. See Line 237.

      (8) Line 144 - change to "...experimentally determined structure...".

      We have added new lines 135-136 to make this point clear. We reinforced that initial predictions were based on the Alphafold2, since an experimental structure was lacking, but we have now discussed the mutations in context of the new structural data.

      (9) The section from lines 150 - 166, comparison of the effect of different mutations in different Cas9 seems more appropriate for the discussion section.

      We have added additional text on this point in the Discussion section, within several new paragraphs.

      (10) In Figure S6, chemical shifts are observed at the distal site away from the mutations, could the authors discuss?

      The Reviewer makes an important observation. Indeed, the CSPs caused by K267E and R332A extend beyond the mutation site. These shifts are mostly close in 3D space to the mutation, and consistent in Figures 2 and S5. New titrations of gRNA into isolated GeoRec2 also activate some distal sites, and new MD simulations suggests the mutations disrupt RNA and DNA contacts, where these distal effects may play a role with full-length gRNAs.

      We agree it would be worth mutating distal sites undergoing CSPs to examine their impact on function, but two complicating factors are 1) the lack of substantial gRNA affinity differences in experiments with full-length GeoCas9 and 2) the lack of functional changes in the mutants. In this initial study, it appears difficult to assign an effect to these distal sites in GeoCas9 (beyond speculation). We do have a brief discussion of the distal sites (Lines 293-298) and will follow up this work with more comprehensive mutagenesis studies of these sites.

      (11) It appears that the authors fitted the Tm data to some model although this is not mentioned in the text, figure captions, or methods. In the caption for Figure 4D the authors refer to "Fitted thermal denaturation profiles...".

      We have added the relevant Equation in the Methods and referenced it in Figure S6 and S14 captions.

      (12) Details of the ModelFree fitting are needed, how many residues fit with the minimal models, and how many invoked Rex and other terms? How does the statement in line 191 about the elevated S2 values arising from global tumbling compare with an experimental estimation of rotational correlation eg. from R2/R1 ratios?

      We have included an expanded description of the Model-free protocol (Lines 521-527). The best diffusion tensor was an ellipsoid model. The number of residues utilizing Rex was 81, though Rex contribution was very small. The mean and errors for the fast motion (S<sup>2</sup><sub>f</sub>), slow motion (S<sup>2</sup><sub>z</sub>) and generalized order parameter were 0.97 ± 0.15, 0.84 ± 0.14, and 0.91 ± 0.20, respectively.

      R2/R1 ratios for each of the samples (relaxation conducted on GeoRec2 in isolation) corresponded to an estimated tc of 16.3 ns for all data sets. This value is a bit larger than would be expected for a compact globular protein of 25 kDa, though our X-ray structure of GeoRec2 shows a somewhat elongated domain.

      (13) Line 221 - referring to two different figures at the end of the sentence is confusing, maybe place the figure references immediately after the referral in the sentence.

      We have resolved due to reshuffling of the Figures.

      (14) Line 234 - Fig 4E is mentioned before fig 4D, in fact Fig 4D is not mentioned in the text.

      We have reordered and edited many of the Figures, this is now resolved.

      (15) Line 243 - what is the saturating concentration to which the authors are referring?

      We have amended the Results section to more clearly discuss the effect of gRNA on the GeoRec and (now) GeoRec2 domains. We meant 3-fold excess gRNA-to-protein by “saturating” in the prior version. At that point, CSPs held stable and the degree of line broadening at certain sites had completely obscured the resonance from view.

      (16) Fig 4E caption - mentions error of 1.34 while the figure is labeled 1.1 for the R332A GeoRec mutant.

      This has been resolved due to additional MST trails as well as the editing and reordering of many Figures.

      (17) Line 253 - the authors are discussing regions of allosteric hotspots, how do the motions of these predicted hotspots compare with the relaxation dispersion data? There seems to be some overlap.

      The Reviewer makes a keen observation. Yes, there is overlap in these data. For example, hotspot residue R269 is bracketed by L268 and L270 with relaxation dispersion. Also, hotspot L279 surrounded by C275, A276, R277, and D281 with dispersion in both variants. Further, D403 and E408 reside in a stretch of ms timescale flexibility comprised of N404, L406, N412, and L413. We have yet to fully understand the functional significance of this overlap, but have added a note in Line 298 to draw the reader’s attention to it.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Although the scope of the manuscript is rather limited due to the minor effects observed for the selected mutations, it is clear that a lot of work was done in spearheading the investigation of dynamic modes in GeoCas9 Rec2. In my view, the data will still be of relevance and interest to the general structural and chemical biology communities.

      However, there are a few technical shortcomings that need to be addressed and some statements that are poorly supported by data, necessitating either more experimental proofs or rephrasing of the conclusions.

      Major points:

      X-ray structure - No PDB ID, structural statistics, or validation report is given for the structure, so it is impossible to judge of the quality. Please provide these. Furthermore, it would be commendable to determine the structure of the point mutant Rec2 domains, this would greatly strengthen the claim that mutations affect only dynamics and do not change structure.

      We apologize for this oversight. We absolutely had these data at the time of submission but must have forgotten to upload them. The validation report is now attached.

      Regarding the mutant structures, the Reviewer’s point is well taken. In the absence of these structures, we have adjusted the language to include the possibility of structural change. We have also included new MD simulations (new Figure 6 and associated text) that provide comment on possible structural and dynamic changes due to mutation. We note that NMR spectral changes are quite modest, beyond the site of mutation. Further, the new binding data with full-length GeoCas9 (new Figure 7) shows very little change in gRNA affinity with mutations, implying that a profound structural rearrangement does not take place.

      Translating isolated Rec2 findings to FL GeoCas9 - This is an important point and I do appreciate that the authors discuss this. I agree that working on FL samples for NMR would not be feasible, but I am not convinced by the statement that "GeoRec2 in isolation represents the structure of the subdomain within full-length GeoCas9 very well". The chemical shift perturbations observed between isolated Rec2 and FL Cas9 are relatively sizable. This should be discussed in further detail. Figure 1B should showcase peaks having the highest perturbations. Are they located at termini or interaction interfaces?

      We have provided the combined <sup>1</sup>H-<sup>15</sup>N combined CSPs for each construct, relative to the full-length GeoRec domain, Author response image 1. In most cases, the largest CSPs occur at resonances on the periphery of the spectra, retaining the ability to unambiguously assign it. The largest CSPs do appear to exist at the termini.

      The Rec1 and Rec2 subdomains are connected by a short, but flexible unstructured linker in full-length GeoRec. Thus, the two subdomains do not form a particularly tight non-covalent interface and behave somewhat independently (see Figure S4, for example).

      Regarding the statement of “GeoRec2 in isolation...,” we apologize for this confusion.

      We were referring to our solved crystal structure in relation to the AlphaFold model. With the new cryo-EM structure of GeoCas9 having been recently published, our X-ray structure of GeoRec2 is still in excellent agreement, but we have clarified our intent on Line 111.

      Dynamics and effect of mutations - K267E is more destabilizing and leads to more spread chemical shift perturbations throughout Rec2 and to faster-correlated dynamics but not in significantly lower affinity or cleavage. How do the authors explain this?

      The Reviewer raises an interesting question. Regarding the impact of the K267E mutation, new MD simulations also suggest K267E to be quite disruptive of the GeoCas9 structure and dynamics, modulating contacts with the nucleic acids. However, further MD analysis of the recently published (bona fide high specificity) iGeoCas9 variant shows that K267E only imparts a portion of the effect of iGeoCas9, suggesting that even further modulation of GeoRec would be require for substantial functional impact. In addition, new MST binding studies with full-length variants and gRNAs show K267E does not dramatically alter gRNA binding, suggesting that the lack of functional impact, despite biophysical change, is suppressed by the surrounding GeoCas9 domains. We comment on this in the Discussion.

      Moreover, the time regime for the fit of the CPMG curves is surprisingly slow given the profiles, how were the minor state populations? Were the dynamics really correlated? Please provide numbers (also see minor points below). In that regime CEST experiments should work, was that done?

      The minor state populations were very low in the analysis, <1%.

      To examine the correlated dynamics, we compared the global fits to those of the individual fits for each residue and found them to be better for the global fit, based on the Akaike Information Criterion. For WT, the AIC showed the global fit to be ~10-fold better. For K267E, the global model was 4-fold better, and for R332A, the global model was 6-fold better. We have added language clarifying the use of AIC to the Methods section.

      We have done CEST experiments on _Geo_HNH (we did not see overly clear evidence for a minor state), but we did not perform these experiments on GeoRec. However, we strongly agree that a detailed follow-up study focusing on CEST and new GeoRec variants should investigate this further.

      Since the binding effects with gRNAs differ in the isolated domain and the full-length protein, we have tried not to over-analyze the impact of the relaxation data in this specific context. These data still provide useful information regarding the impact of point mutants on GeoCas9 domain biophysics, and MD simulations support the enhanced dynamics seen in CPMG and other relaxation data. However, the functional implication is clearly more complicated and requires further study.

      Mutations affect gRNA affinity - I am not convinced that affinity itself is significantly affected based on the MST data. This data could be reproduced as technical replicates to reduce the error bars, or another technique with less intrinsic noise (ITC, SPR) could be used to better support this claim. However, a 3-fold difference seen from NMR titrations could indicate a change in binding mode, for instance in koff. It would be interesting to obtain SPR or BLI data quantifying the kinetics of the interactions. Anyhow, this point should be more carefully discussed.

      We agree with the Reviewer on this point. We conducted additional replicates of MST trials, as well as new MST with a different gRNA sequence. Our updated analysis, including statistics, provides a better measure for “significance” in these data, which is now reported. We have also added some text discussing a possible change in binding mode, see Lines 256-259.

      We also carried out MST on full-length GeoCas9 with full-length gRNAs (the same two RNAs used as truncated constructs). We report these data in new Figure 7 and note there is essentially no difference between the gRNAs or the GeoCas9 variants under these conditions.

      Further, MD simulations suggest a change in binding energy associated with the gRNA interaction in the context of full-length GeoCas9. Since experimental studies are not able to parse these differences, collectively, we describe a scenario where the highly stable structure of GeoCas9 resists substantial mutation-induced change seen for analogous perturbations in SpCas9. See Lines 309-342, 414-418, and 448-461.

      Minor points:

      • Please detail how the error on R1 and R2 rates was calculated.

      We have included new text in Lines 514-518.

      • Please detail how hetNOE values were calculated (simply Isat/Iref?) and what values were used for Model Free.

      Yes, the Reviewer is correct. We have added specifically that we used Isat/Iref on Line 518.

      • Please elaborate on the Model Free analysis. What tensor was used for tumbling? What was the correlation time? This is needed to judge the trustworthiness of S2 parameters.

      We have included new text on Lines 520-526. The diffusion tensor used was an ellipsoid and the correlation time was 15.4 ns. The correlation time estimated from R2/R1 ratios was 16.3 ns.

      • Figure 1: Please indicate where Rec1 and Rec2 are located on panel A and indicate the residue assignments for each peak showcased in panel B.

      We have indicated the boundary of Rec1 and Rec2 in the new cartoon of Figure 1A. We have also noted the exact amino acids used for each construct in the Methods. We also added resonance labels to the spectral overlays in Figure 1B. We have done the same

      • Line 187: I believe this should refer to Figure S8C rather than Figure 3A.

      We have made this change.

      • Some fits of the CPMG curves look strange, e.g. R343 in Fig. 3B WT definitely does not contain significant us-ms dynamics and should be excluded from the analysis. Please double-check each profile. Were other models besides CR72 not providing better fits?

      The Reviewer has made a very careful observation. Our intent was to highlight these sites on purpose to show differences in CPMG relaxation dispersion between WT and variant samples. This was provided as some evidence for the redistribution of dynamics between samples, as many different sites found to be “rigid” on the ms timescale in WT GeoRec2 were flexible in GeoRec2 variants. We agree, however, that this Figure panel was confusing and have therefore removed it in favor of simple discussion in the text.

      • To what degree are the CPMG dynamics correlated, can you provide statistical measures for the global fits?

      We compared the global fits to those of the individual fits for each residue and found them to be better for the global fit, based on the Akaike Information Criterion. For WT, the AIC showed the global fit to be ~10-fold better. For K267E, the global model was 4fold better, and for R332A, the global model was 6-fold better.

      We have added language clarifying the use of AIC to the Methods section.

      • Error measured from replicates and p-values should be reported for DNA cleavage assays.

      We thank the Reviewer for pointing out this omission. We have included error bars on these plots.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      This work provides a new Python toolkit for combining generative modeling of neural dynamics and inversion methods to infer likely model parameters that explain empirical neuroimaging data. The authors provided tests to show the toolkit's broad applicability and accuracy; hence, it will be very useful for people interested in using computational approaches to better understand the brain.

      Strengths:

      The work's primary strength is the tool's integrative nature, which seamlessly combines forward modelling with backward inference. This is important as available tools in the literature can only do one and not the other, which limits their accessibility to neuroscientists with limited computational expertise. Another strength of the paper is the demonstration of how the tool can be applied to a broad range of computational models popularly used in the field to interrogate diverse neuroimaging data, ensuring that the methodology is not optimal to only one model. Moreover, through extensive in-silico testing, the work provided evidence that the tool can accurately infer ground-truth parameters, which is important to ensure results from future hypothesis testing are meaningful.

      We are happy to hear the positive feedback on our effort to provide an open-source and widely accessible tool for both fast forward simulations and flexible model inversion, applicable across popular models of large-scale brain dynamics.

      Weaknesses:

      Although the tool itself is the main strength of the work, the paper lacked a thorough analysis of issues concerning robustness and benchmarking relative to existing tools.

      The first issue is the robustness to the choice of features to be included in the objective function. This choice significantly affects the training and changes the results, as the authors even acknowledged themselves multiple times (e.g., Page 17 last sentence of first paragraph or Page 19 first sentence of second paragraph). This brings the question of whether the accurate results found in the various demonstrations are due to the biased selection of features (possibly from priors on what worked in previous works). The robustness of the neural estimator and the inference method to noise was also not demonstrated. This is important as most neuroimaging measurements are inherently noisy to various degrees.

      The second issue is on benchmarking. Because the tool developed is, in principle, only a combination of existing tools specific to modeling or Bayesian inference, the work failed to provide a more compelling demonstration of its added value. This could have been demonstrated through appropriate benchmarking relative to existing methodologies, specifically in terms of accuracy and computational efficiency.

      We fully agree with the reviewer that the VBI estimation heavily depends on the choice of data features, and this is the core of the inference procedure, not its weakness. We have demonstrated different scenarios showing how the informativeness of features (commonly used in the literature) results in varying uncertainty quantification. For instance, using summary statistics of functional connectivity (FC) and functional connectivity dynamics (FCD) matrices to estimate global coupling parameter leads to fast convergence; however, it is not sufficient to accurately estimate the whole-brain heterogeneous excitability parameter, which requires features such as statistical moments of time series. VBI provides a taxonomy of data features that users can employ to test their hypotheses. It is important to note that one major advantage of VBI is its ability to make estimation using a battery of data features, rather than relying on a limited set (such as only FC or FCD) as is often the case in the literature. In the revised version, we will elaborate further by presenting additional scenarios to demonstrate the robustness of the estimation. We will also evaluate the robustness of the neural density estimators to (dynamical/additive) noise.

      More importantly, relative to benchmarking, we would like to draw attention to a key point regarding existing tools and methods. The literature often uses optimization for fitting whole-brain network models, and its limitations for reliable causal hypothesis testing have been pointed out in the Introduction/Discussion. As also noted by the reviewer under strengths, and to the best of our knowledge, there are no existing tools other than VBI that can scale and generalize to operate across whole-brain models for Bayesian model inversion. Previously, we developed Hamiltonian Monte Carlo (HMC) sampling for Epileptor model in epilepsy (Hashemi et al., 2020, Jha et al., 2022). This phenomenological model is very well-behaved in terms of numerical integration, gradient calculation, and dynamical system properties (Jirsa et al., 2014). However, this does not directly generalize to other models, particularly the Montbrió model for resting-state, which exhibits bistability with noise driving transitions between states. As shown in Baldy et al., 2024, even at the level of a single neural mass model (i.e., one brain region), gradient-based HMC failed to capture such switching behaviour, particularly when only one state variable (membrane potential) was observed while the other (firing rate) was missing. Our attempts to use other methods (e.g., the second-derivative-based Laplace approximation used in Dynamic Causal Modeling) also failed, due to divergence in gradient calculation. Nevertheless, reparameterization techniques (Baldy et al., 2024) and hybrid algorithms (Gabrié et al., 2022) could offer improvements, although this remains an open problem for these classes of computational models.

      In sum, for oscillatory systems, it has been shown previously that SBI approach used in VBI substantially outperforms both gradient-based and gradient-free alternative methods (Gonçalves et al., 2020, Hashemi et al., 2023, Baldy et al., 2024). Importantly, for bistable systems with switching dynamics, gradient-based methods fail to converge, while gradient-free methods do not scale to the whole-brain level (Hashemi et al., 2020). Hence, the generalizability of VBI relies on the fact that neither the model nor the data features need to be differentiable. We will clarify this point in the revised version. Moreover, we will provide better explanations for some terms mentioned by the reviewer in Recommendations.

      Hashemi, M., Vattikonda, A. N., Sip, V., Guye, M., Bartolomei, F., Woodman, M. M., & Jirsa, V. K. (2020). The Bayesian Virtual Epileptic Patient: A probabilistic framework designed to infer the spatial map of epileptogenicity in a personalized large-scale brain model of epilepsy spread. NeuroImage, 217, 116839.

      Jha, J., Hashemi, M., Vattikonda, A. N., Wang, H., & Jirsa, V. (2022). Fully Bayesian estimation of virtual brain parameters with self-tuning Hamiltonian Monte Carlo. Machine Learning: Science and Technology, 3(3), 035016.

      Jirsa, V. K., Stacey, W. C., Quilichini, P. P., Ivanov, A. I., & Bernard, C. (2014). On the nature of seizure dynamics. Brain, 137(8), 2210-2230.

      Baldy, N., Breyton, M., Woodman, M. M., Jirsa, V. K., & Hashemi, M. (2024). Inference on the macroscopic dynamics of spiking neurons. Neural Computation, 36(10), 2030-2072.

      Baldy, N., Woodman, M., Jirsa, V., & Hashemi, M. (2024). Dynamic Causal Modeling in Probabilistic Programming Languages. bioRxiv, 2024-11.

      Gabrié, M., Rotskoff, G. M., & Vanden-Eijnden, E. (2022). Adaptive Monte Carlo augmented with normalizing flows. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 119(10), e2109420119.

      Gonçalves, P. J., Lueckmann, J. M., Deistler, M., Nonnenmacher, M., Öcal, K., Bassetto, G., ... & Macke, J. H. (2020). Training deep neural density estimators to identify mechanistic models of neural dynamics. elife, 9, e56261.

      Hashemi, M., Vattikonda, A. N., Jha, J., Sip, V., Woodman, M. M., Bartolomei, F., & Jirsa, V. K. (2023). Amortized Bayesian inference on generative dynamical network models of epilepsy using deep neural density estimators. Neural Networks, 163, 178-194.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Whole-brain network modeling is a common type of dynamical systems-based method to create individualized models of brain activity incorporating subject-specific structural connectome inferred from diffusion imaging data. This type of model has often been used to infer biophysical parameters of the individual brain that cannot be directly measured using neuroimaging but may be relevant to specific cognitive functions or diseases. Here, Ziaeemehr et al introduce a new toolkit, named "Virtual Brain Inference" (VBI), offering a new computational approach for estimating these parameters using Bayesian inference powered by artificial neural networks. The basic idea is to use simulated data, given known parameters, to train artificial neural networks to solve the inverse problem, namely, to infer the posterior distribution over the parameter space given data-derived features. The authors have demonstrated the utility of the toolkit using simulated data from several commonly used whole-brain network models in case studies.

      Strengths:

      (1) Model inversion is an important problem in whole-brain network modeling. The toolkit presents a significant methodological step up from common practices, with the potential to broadly impact how the community infers model parameters.

      (2) Notably, the method allows the estimation of the posterior distribution of parameters instead of a point estimation, which provides information about the uncertainty of the estimation, which is generally lacking in existing methods.

      (3) The case studies were able to demonstrate the detection of degeneracy in the parameters, which is important. Degeneracy is quite common in this type of model. If not handled mindfully, they may lead to spurious or stable parameter estimation. Thus, the toolkit can potentially be used to improve feature selection or to simply indicate the uncertainty.

      (4) In principle, the posterior distribution can be directly computed given new data without doing any additional simulation, which could improve the efficiency of parameter inference on the artificial neural network if well-trained.

      We thank the reviewer for the careful consideration of important aspects of the VBI tool, such as uncertainty quantification, degeneracy detection, parallelization, and amortization strategy.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) While the posterior estimator was trained with a large quantity of simulated data, the testing/validation is only demonstrated with a single case study (one point in parameter space) per model. This is not sufficient to demonstrate the method's accuracy and reliability, but only its feasibility. Demonstrating the accuracy and reliability of the posterior estimation in large test sets would inspire more confidence.

      (2) The authors have only demonstrated validation of the method using simulated data, but not features derived from actual EEG/MEG or fMRI data. So, it is unclear if the posterior estimator, when applied to real data, would produce results as sensible as using simulated data. Human data can often look quite different from the simulated data, which may be considered out of distribution. Thus, the authors should consider using simulated test data with out-of-distribution parameters to validate the method and using real human data to demonstrate, e.g., the reliability of the method across sessions.

      (3) The z-scores used to measure prediction error are generally between 1-3, which seems quite large to me. It would give readers a better sense of the utility of the method if comparisons to simpler methods, such as k-nearest neighbor methods, are provided in terms of accuracy.

      (4) A lot of simulations are required to train the posterior estimator, which seems much more than existing approaches. Inferring from Figure S1, at the required order of magnitudes of the number of simulations, the simulation time could range from days to years, depending on the hardware. Although once the estimator is well-trained, the parameter inverse given new data will be very fast, it is not clear to me how often such use cases would be encountered. Because the estimator is trained based on an individual connectome, it can only be used to do parameter inversion for the same subject. Typically, we only have one session of resting state data from each participant, while longitudinal resting state data where we can assume the structural connectome remains constant, is rare. Thus, the cost-efficiency and practical utility of training such a posterior estimator remains unclear.

      We agree with the reviewer that it is necessary to show results on larger synthetic test sets, and we will elaborate further by presenting additional scenarios to demonstrate the robustness of the estimation. However, there are some points raised by the reviewer that we need to clarify.

      The validation on empirical data was beyond the scope of this study, as it relates to model validation rather than the inversion algorithms. This is also because we aimed to avoid repetition, given that we have previously demonstrated model validation on empirical data using theses techniques, for invasive sEEG (Hashemi et al., 2023), MEG (Sorrentino et al., 2024), EEG (Angiolelli et al., 2025) and fMRI (Lavanga et al., 2024, Rabuffo et al., 2025). Note that if the features of the observed data are not included during training, VBI ignores them, as it requires an invertible mapping function between parameters and data features.

      We have used z-scores and posterior shrinkage to measure prediction performance, as these are Bayesian metrics that take into account the variance of both prior and posterior rather than only the mean value or thresholding for ranking of the prediction used in k-NN or confusion matrix methods. This helps avoid biased accuracy estimation, for instance, if the mean posterior is close to the true value but there is no posterior shrinkage. Although shrinkage is bounded between 0 and 1, we agree that z-scores have no upper bound for such diagnostics.

      Finally, the number of required simulations depends on the dimensionality of the parameter space and the informativeness of the data features. For instance, estimating a single global scaling parameter requires around 100 simulations, whereas estimating whole-brain heterogeneous parameters requires substantially more simulations. Nevertheless, we have provided fast simulations, and one key advantage of VBI is that simulations can be run in parallel (unlike MCMC sampling, which is more limited in this regard). Hence, with commonly accessible CPUs/GPUs, the fast simulations and parallelization capabilities of the VBI tool allow us to run on the order of 1 million simulations within 2–3 days on desktops, or in less than half a day on supercomputers at cohort level, rather than over several years! It has been previously shown that the SBI method used in VBI provides an order-of-magnitude faster inversion than HMC for whole-brain epilepsy spread (Hashemi et al., 2023). Moreover, after training, the amortized strategy is critical for enabling hypothesis testing within seconds to minutes. We agree that longitudinal resting-state data under the assumption of a constant structural connectome is rare; however, this strategy is essential in brain diseases such as epilepsy, where experimental hypothesis testing is prohibitive.

      We will clarify these points and better explain some terms mentioned by the reviewer in the revised manuscript.

      Hashemi, M., Vattikonda, A. N., Jha, J., Sip, V., Woodman, M. M., Bartolomei, F., & Jirsa, V. K. (2023). Amortized Bayesian inference on generative dynamical network models of epilepsy using deep neural density estimators. Neural Networks, 163, 178-194.

      Sorrentino, P., Pathak, A., Ziaeemehr, A., Lopez, E. T., Cipriano, L., Romano, A., ... & Hashemi, M. (2024). The virtual multiple sclerosis patient. IScience, 27(7).

      Angiolelli, M., Depannemaecker, D., Agouram, H., Regis, J., Carron, R., Woodman, M., ... & Sorrentino, P. (2025). The virtual parkinsonian patient. npj Systems Biology and Applications, 11(1), 40.

      Lavanga, M., Stumme, J., Yalcinkaya, B. H., Fousek, J., Jockwitz, C., Sheheitli, H., ... & Jirsa, V. (2023). The virtual aging brain: Causal inference supports interhemispheric dedifferentiation in healthy aging. NeuroImage, 283, 120403.

      Rabuffo, G., Lokossou, H. A., Li, Z., Ziaee-Mehr, A., Hashemi, M., Quilichini, P. P., ... & Bernard, C. (2025). Mapping global brain reconfigurations following local targeted manipulations. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 122(16), e2405706122.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      We appreciate the time and effort of the reviewers, and their insightful and constructive comments to improve the paper. We have now addressed the reviewers’ comments in our revised manuscript and provide here below detailed explanations of the changes.

      We have adapted the Wilson-Cowan model to follow the same brain network modeling notation as the other models (Fig. 3 in the main text and Figs. S2–S4 in the supplementary materials). Additionally, we have included multiple figures in the supplementary material presenting extensive in-silico testing to demonstrate the accuracy and reliability of the estimations across different configurations, as well as the sensitivity to both additive and dynamical noise.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) There were some inaccurate statements throughout the text that need to be corrected.

      a) In section 2.1, paragraph 1, the authors mentioned that they would describe network models corresponding to different types of neuroimaging recordings. This is inaccurate. The models were developed to approximate various aspects of the architecture of neural circuits. They were not developed per se to solely describe a specific neuroimaging modality.

      Thank you for pointing this out. We agree that our phrasing in Section 2.1, paragraph 1, was not clear that the network models were developed to generate neural activity at the source level, and that a projection needs to be established to transform the simulated neural activity into empirically measurable quantities, such as BOLD fMRI, EEG, or MEG. We have revised the wording in the revised manuscript to clarify this point accordingly.

      b) The use of the term "spatio-temporal data features" is misleading as there are no true spatial features extracted.

      We have clarified that:Following Hashemi et al., 2024, we use the term spatio-temporal data features to refer to both statistical and temporal features derived from time series. In contrast, we refer to the connectivity features extracted from FC/FCD matrices as functional data features. We would like to retain this term, as it is used consistently in the code.

      (2) The authors need to improve the model descriptions in Equations (1)-(10). Several variables/parameters were not explained, limiting the accessibility of the work to those without prior experience in computational modeling.

      Thank you for pointing this out. In the revised manuscript, we have improved the model descriptions, all variables and parameters used in these equations.

      (3) Various things need further clarification and/or explanation:

      a) There is a need to highlight that the models section only provides examples of one of the many possible variants of the models. For example, the Wilson-Cowan model described is not your typical and more popular cortico-cortical-based Wilson-Cowan model. This is important to ensure that the work reflects an accurate account of the literature, avoiding future references that the models presented are THE models.

      This is a very important point. We have now highlighted that each model represents one of many possible variants. Moreover, we adapted the Wilson-Cowan model as a whole-brain network modeling approach to harmonize with all other models.

      b) In Figure 1, it is unclear where the empirical data come into play. The neural density estimator also sounds like a black box and needs further explanation (e.g., its architecture).

      Thank you for the careful reading. This is correct. We have now clarified where the empirical data enters as input to the neural density estimator and have added further explanation in section 2.2.

      c) There is also a need to better explain what shrinkage means and what the z-score vs shrinkage implies.

      We have elaborated on the definition of posterior z-score and shrinkage.

      d) It is unclear how the authors decided on the number of training samples to use.

      There is no specific rule for determining the optimal number of simulations required for training. In general, the larger number of simulations, within the available computational budget, the better the posterior estimation is likely to be. In the case of synthetic data, we have monitored the z-score and posterior shrinkage to assess the quality and reliability of the inferred parameters.  This also critically depends on the parameter dimensionality. For instance, in estimating only global coupling parameter, a maximum of 300 simulations was used, demonstrating accurate estimation across models and different realizations (Fig S20), except for the Jansen-Rit model, where coupling did not induce a significant change in the intrinsic frequency of regional activity. We have now pointed this out in the discussion.

      e) In the Results section, paragraph 1, there is a need to clarify that "ground truth" is available because you simulate data using predefined parameters. In fact, these predefined parameters and how they were chosen to generate the observed data were never described in the text.

      The "ground truth" is often chosen randomly within biologically plausible ranges, typically with some level of heterogeneity, and this has now been highlighted.

      f) Can the authors comment on why the median of the posterior distributions (e.g., in Figure 4E) is actually far off from the ground truth parameters? This is probably understandable in the Jansen-Ritt model due to complexity, but not obvious in the very low-dimensional Stuart-Landau oscillator model.

      This can happen due to non-identifiability in high-dimensional settings. Figure 4E represents the posterior estimation using Jansen-Rit model with high-dimensional parameters. An accurate estimation close to the true values can be observed in the low-dimensional Stuart-Landau model, as shown in Figure 5.

      g) In Figure 7, the FC and FCD matrices look weird relative to those typically seen in other works.

      We have updated Figure 7. To do the our best, we have followed the code and the parameters from the following paper Kong et al., Nat Commun 12, 6373 (2021), and the following repo https://github.com/ThomasYeoLab/CBIG/blob/master/stable_projects/fMRI_dynamics/Kong2021_pMFM/examples/scripts/CBIG_pMFM_parameter_estimation_example.py

      We considered 300 iterations for optimizing the parameters, using CMA-ES method, and with window length of 60 sec, and TR=0.72 sec, yielding a 1118 × 1118 FCD matrix for each run. Nevertheless, some discrepancy can happen with the shown FC/FCD, due to convergence of the optimization process and other model parameters.

      h) In Figure 8, results for the J parameter are missing. Also, the BOLD signal time series of some regions in Figure 8B looks very weird, with some having very large deflections.

      We have updated Figure 8. In this figure, the parameter J is not inferred; it is instead presented in the appendix (S18). Please note that the system is in a bistable regime. We have implemented the full Wong-Wang model (Deco, 2014, Journal of Neuroscience), by optimized external current and global coupling (using CMA-ES optimization) to maximize the fluidity of FCD, as those typically seen in other works:

      Author response image 1.

      i) On page 14, the authors mentioned that they perform a PCA on the FC/FCD matrices. Can the authors explain this step further and what it specifically gives out, as this is something unusual in the generative model fitting literature?

      Indeed, PCA is a widely used dimension reduction method in machine learning. Please note that in SBI, any dimensionality reduction technique, such as PCA, can be used, as long as it preserves information relevant to the target parameters.

      j) On page 3, what does ABC in ABC methods stand for?

      ABC stands for Approximate Bayesian Computation, which is now spelled out in the text.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Overall, I found the paper well-written. These are basically just minor comments:

      We appreciate your positive feedback.

      (1) P3:

      - Amortization requires more explanation for the neuroscience audience.

      - What does ABC stand for?

      We have elaborated on Amortization. ABC stands for Approximate Bayesian Computation, which is now spelled out in the text.

      (2) Section 2.1:

      Should clarify the parcellation used

      In section 2.1, we now mentioned that: “The structural connectome was built with TVB-specific reconstruction pipeline using generally available neuroimaging software (Schirner et al., Neuroimage 2015)”.

      (3) P20: The method for sensitivity analysis (Figure 5F) is not clearly described.

      We have now added a subsection in the Methods section to explain the sensitivity analysis.

      (4) P21: statement that 10k simulations took less than 1 min doesn't match info shown in Figure S1. Please clarify.

      This is correct, as for the Epileptor model, the total integration time is less than 100 ms. Due to the model’s stable behavior with a large time step and the use of 10 CPU cores, all simulations were completed in less than a minute. Previously (Hashemi et al., 2023) it has been reported that each VEP run to simulate 100sec of whole-brain epileptic patterns takes only 0.003 s using a JIT compiler. The other models require more computational cost due to longer integration durations and smaller time steps. We have clarified this point.

      (5) P23-24: the distribution of FCDs also doesn't match well even if we don't consider element-wise correspondence. Please clarify.

      This is correct, as we used summary statistics of the FCD, such as fluidity, and due to noise, each realization of the FCD matrix exhibits different element-wise correspondence. We have already mentioned this point.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Liang et al. have conducted a small-scale pilot study focusing on the feasibility and tolerability of Low-dose chemotherapy combined with delayed immunotherapy in the neoadjuvant treatment of non-small cell lung cancer. The design of delayed immunotherapy after chemotherapy is relatively novel, while the reduced chemotherapy, although somewhat lacking in innovation, still serves as an early clue for exploring future feasible strategies. Also, the dynamic ctDNA and TCR profiles could give some important hints of intrinsic tumor reaction.

      However, as the author mentioned in the limitation part, due to the small sample size and lack of a control group, we cannot fully understand the advantages and disadvantages of this approach compared to standard treatment. Compared to standard immunotherapy, the treatment group in this study has three differences: (1) reduced chemotherapy, (2) the use of cisplatin instead of the commonly used carboplatin in neoadjuvant therapy trials, and (3) delayed immunotherapy. Generally, in the exploration of updated treatment strategies, the design should follow the principle of "controlling variables." If there are too many differences at once, it becomes difficult to determine which variable is responsible for the effects, leading to confusion in the interpretation of the results. Moreover, the therapeutic strategy may lack practical clinical operability due to the long treatment duration.

      Thank you for your advice. As you pointed out, incorporating too many variables can obscure research findings. Our study focuses on two primary objectives: (1) to demonstrate that our approach is less toxic than the standard regimen; and (2) to fully activate the immune system in order to achieve better therapeutic outcomes. Based on these two objectives, we reduced chemotherapy dosage to alleviate toxicity, and perform delayed immunotherapy administration to alleviate the killing of activated immune cells by chemotherapy so as to maximize the immune response. Therefore, the two variables of reduced chemotherapy and delayed immunotherapy are unified in this study. The reduction of cisplatin to 60mg/m2 is supported by data for Chinese people; A retrospective study conducted by our center found that delayed immunotherapy also has great therapeutic effects. Considering the previous blood toxicity of carboplatin and albumin paclitaxel, we replaced carboplatin with cisplatin to alleviate bone marrow suppression. Usually, our patients are hospitalized for 4-7 days to receive treatment, observe and manage potential side effects, including nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, bone marrow suppression and so on. Therefore, it is convenient and feasible for immunotherapy administration on the 5th day.

      Furthermore, in the exploration of biomarkers, the authors emphasized the procedure of whole RNA sequencing in tumor tissues in the method section, and this was also noted in the flowchart in Figure 1. However, I didn't find any mention of RNA-related analyses in the Results section, which raises some concerns about the quality of this paper for me. If the authors have inadvertently omitted some results, they should supplement the RNA-related analyses so that I can re-evaluate the paper.

      Thanks for your comment. In this study, we employed a multi-omics approach involving whole transcriptome, ctDNA, and TCR sequencing to investigate the effects of a neoadjuvant treatment on NSCLC. The sequencing details are described in the Materials and Methods section. RNA-related analyses are presented in Figure S3. Given that our primary focus is on the impact of this modified treatment on immune cells, we estimate immune cell compositions by using the xCell and immunCellAI algorithms based on the RNA sequencing results. The estimated immune cell profiles have been added to Supplementary Tables 5 and 6.

      To sum up, this article exhibited a certain degree of innovation to some extent, However, due to its intrinsic design defects and data omissions, the quality of the research warranted further improvement.

      Thanks for your comment. We have provided a more detailed explanation of the administration for all patients. Additionally, we have clarified and supplemented the sequencing results to enhance the clarity and overall quality of the article.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this single center, single arm, open label non-randomised study the authors tested the use of paclitaxel at 180-220 mg/m2 and cisplatin at 60mg/m2 in patients with squamous NSCLC and pemetrexed at 500mg/m2 and cisplatin at 60mg/m2 in adenocarcinoma of lung origin in the neoadjuvant setting. The chemotherapy appears to have been given at a relatively standard dose; though the platin dose at 60mg/m2 is somewhat lower than has been used in the checkmate 816 trial (75mg/m2/dose), this is a well-established dose for NSCLC.

      Key differences to currently approved neoadjuvant chemo-ICI treatment is that anti-PD1 antibody sintilimab (at 200mg/dose) was given on day 5 and that only 2 cycles of chemotherapy were given pre surgery, but then repeated on two occasions post surgery. Between May/2020 and Nov/2023 50 patients were screened, 38 went on to have this schedule of tx, 31 (~82%) went on to have surgery and 27 had the adjuvant treatment. The rate of surgery is entirely consistent with the checkmate 816 data.

      Question to the authors:

      It would be very helpful to understand why 7 (~18% of the population) patients did not make it to surgery and whether this is related to disease progression, toxicity or other reasons for withdrawal.

      Thank you for your comment. No patients were denied surgery due to disease progression or side effects. 7 patients did not undergo surgery: three declined to undergo total pneumonectomy, 2 were unable to come to our hospital for treatment because of the COVID-19 pandemic, and 2 were ineligible for radical surgery due to tumor invasion of the arteries.

      The key clinical endpoints were pCR and mPR rates. 2/38 patients are reported to have achieved a radiological pCR but only 31 patients underwent surgery with histological verification. Supp table2 suggests that 10/31 patients achieved a pCR, 6/31 additional patients achieved a major pathological response and that 13/31 did not achieve a major pathological response.

      It would be really helpful for understanding the clinical outcome to present the histopathological findings in the text in a bit more detail and to refer the outcome to the radiological findings. I note that the reference for pathological responses incorrectly is 38 patients as only 31 patients underwent surgery and were evaluated histologically.

      Thanks for your comment. The ITT population consisted of 38 individuals, of whom 31 underwent surgery. After surgery, 18 patients achieved MPR, including 12 achieved pCR and 13 achieved non-MPR. So for ITT population, the rate of pCR and MPR is 12/38 (31.6%) and 18/38 (47.4%) respectively; for patients who have completed surgery, both pCR and MPR have improved, accounting for 12/31 (38.7%) and 18/31 (58.1%) respectively (Results, line 268 to 269).

      Author response image 1.

      The treatment was very well tolerated with only 1 grade 3 AE reported. The longer term outcome will need to be assessed over time as the cohort is very 'young'. It is not clear what the adjuvant chemo-ICI treatment would add and how this extra treatment would be evaluated for benefit - if all the benefit is in the neoadjuvant treatment then the extra post-operative tx would only add toxicity.

      Please consider what the two post-operative chemo-ICI cycles might add to the outcome and how the value of these cycles would be assessed. Would there be a case for a randomised assessment in the patients who have NOT achieved a mPR histologically?

      Thanks for your comment. The purpose of postoperative adjuvant therapy is to prevent recurrence and metastasis.  Both clinical trial Keynote091 and Impower010 have achieved positive test results. The clinical trial design of Checkmate-77T is neoadjuvant therapy followed by surgery and adjuvant therapy. Checkmate-77T resulted in significantly longer event-free survival than chemotherapy in patients with resectable NSCLC. So we designed this perioperative treatment method, which is currently a common approach, hoping to reduce tumor burden and improve surgical remission rate through neoadjuvant therapy; and to kill residual tumor cells and prolong the DFS through adjuvant therapy. As for DFS, follow-up shows that there are currently 3 cases of recurrence, but the overall data is not yet mature (updated in Table S1). The side effect includes all patients who received neoadjuvant therapy and adjuvant therapy, and the addition of immunotherapy shows no new safety signals.

      While the clinical dataset identifies that the proposed reduced chemo-ICI therapy has clinical merit and should be assessed in a randomized study, the translational work is less informative.

      Thanks for your comment. As mentioned in the shortcomings of the article, our research is preliminary and exploratory, and more large-scale randomized studies are needed to be invested in the future.

      The authors suggest that the treatment has a positive impact on T lymphocytes. Blood sampling was done at day 0 and day 5 of each of the four cycle of chemotherapy with an additional sample post cycle 4. The authors state that data were analysed at each stage.

      The data in Figure 3B are reported for three sets of pairs: baseline to pre day 5 in cycle 1, day 5 to day 21 in cycle 1, baseline of cycle to to day 5. It remains unclear whether the datasets contain the same top 20 clones and it would be very helpful to show kinetic change for the individual 'top 20 clones' throughout the events in individual patients; as it stands the 'top20 clones' may vary widely from timepoint to timepoint. Of note, the figures do not demonstrate that the top 20 TCR clones were 'continuously increased'.

      Thanks for your comment. The data in Fig. 3B do not represent the overlapping top 20 clones across all samples but rather illustrate the changes in the individual top 20 clones for each patient. The changes in the top 20 TCR clones during neoadjuvant treatment for specific samples are shown in Fig. S1. Due to tumor heterogeneity, both within and between samples, the top 20 clones for each patient at the same time point may differ. Additionally, since the top 20 TCR clones can vary between stages as a result of antigen exposure over time, the top 20 clones for the same patient may also differ across different time points. Indeed, when analyzing the data, we measured the dynamic changes of the top 20 TCR clones across three stages in cycle 1, and describing these changes as "continuously increased" may not be entirely accurate. Therefore, we believe it is more accurate to correct it to a phased increase. (Results line 293).

      Instead, the data suggest that there are fluctuations in the relative distributions over time but that may simply be a reflection of shifts in T cell populations following chemotherapy rather than of immunological effects in the cancer tissue.<br /> Consistent with this the authors conclude (line 304/5): "No significant difference was observed in the diversity, evenness, and clonality of TCR clones across the whole treatment procedure" and this seems to be a more persuasive conclusion than the statement 'that a positive effect on T lymphocytes was observed' - where it is also not clear what 'positive' means.

      Thanks for your comment. The scores for diversity, evenness, and clonality assess changes in the overall TCR repertoire. In our cohort, we did not observe significant changes in these three metrics throughout the treatment process, indicating the overall stability of the TCR repertoire. Despite this overall stability, we observed a significant increase in the top 20 and large clones—representative of major TCR clone dynamics—during the treatment period. Additionally, integrating RNA results (Table S5-S6 and Fig. S3) from baseline and surgical samples, we found an increasing trend in the proportion of T cells following neoadjuvant therapy. Therefore, we suggested that the treatment has a positive effect on T lymphocytes.

      The text needs a more balanced representation of the data: only a small subset of four patients appear to have been evaluated to generate the data for figure 3B and only three patients (P5, P6, P7) can have contributed to figure 3C if the sample collection is represented accurately in Figure 3A.

      Thanks for your comment. In Fig. 3B, we utilized TCR data from six patients (P1, P2, P3, P10, P11, P12) for the period from day 1 to day 5 of cycle 1. For the period from day 5 of cycle 1 to day 1 of cycle 2, we used data from six patients (P1, P2, P5, P10, P11, P12). For the period from day 1 of cycle 2 to day 5 of cycle 2, we included data from five patients (P2, P4, P10, P11, P12). In Fig. 3C, we used TCR data from eight patients (P1, P2, P4, P6, P7, P10, P11, P12) to generate the images for cycle 1, and data from two patients (P6, P7) to create the images for cycle 3. Therefore, the sampling illustration in Fig. 3A is accurate.

      The text refers to flow cytometric results in SF3. However, no information is given on the flow cytometry in M&M, markers or gating strategy.

      Thanks for your comment. In this study, we performed tissue sampling and whole transcriptome sequencing at both the baseline and surgical stages. Based on the sequencing results, we evaluated T cell populations using two algorithms, xCell and immunoCellAI, and detailed the analysis procedures in the Methods and Materials section. Additionally, we have included the assessment results from both algorithms in Supplementary Tables 5 and 6.

      Please consider changing the terminology of the 'phases' into something that is easier to understand. One option would be to use a reference to a more standard unit (cycle 1-4 of chemotherapy and then d0/d5/d21).

      Thanks for your advice. Since each treatment cycle consists of both chemotherapy and immunotherapy, with chemotherapy administered on day 1 and immunotherapy on day 5 of each cycle, blood samples are collected at these two time points. Following your suggestion, we will use the notation d0/d5 within each treatment cycle to better clarify this process for the readers.

      Please make it explicit in the text that molecular analyses were undertaken for some patients only, and how many patients contribute to the data in figures 3B-F. Figure 3A suggests paired mRNA data were obtained in 2 patients (P2 and P5) but I cannot find the results on these analyses; four individual blood samples to assess TCR changes int PH1/PH2/PH3and PH4 were only available in four patients (P4,P5,P7,P9). Only three patients seem to have the right samples collected to allow the analysis for 'C3' in figure 3C.

      Thanks for your comment. In Fig. 3B and 3D, we used TCR data from six patients (P1, P2, P3, P10, P11, P12) for the period from day 0 to day 5 of cycle 1. For the period from day 5 of cycle 1 to day 0 of cycle 2, data from six patients (P1, P2, P5, P10, P11, P12) were used. For the period from day 0 of cycle 2 to day 5 of cycle 2, we included data from five patients (P2, P4, P10, P11, P12). In Fig. 3C and 3E, TCR data from eight patients (P1, P2, P4, P6, P7, P10, P11, P12) were used to generate the images for cycle 1, while data from two patients (P6, P7) were used to create the images for cycle 3. In Fig. 3F, all patients who underwent sequencing are included in the analysis, with each patient's data represented by dots of different colors.

      For the mRNA data, we sampled and sequenced five patients (P1, P2, P4, P5, P7) before treatment. During the surgical phase, we sampled and sequenced three patients (P2, P5, P6). The T cell assessments and comparisons based on the mRNA sequencing results are presented in Fig. S3 and Tables S5-S6.

      Please display for each of the 'top 20 clones' at any one timepoint how these clones evolve throughout the study; I expect that a clone that is 'top 20' at a given timepoint may not be among the 'top twenty' at all timepoints.

      Thanks for your comment. Yes, due to the heterogeneity of tumors, a variety of different antigens are exposed during the course of cancer treatment. As a result, the formation of TCR dominant clones is a dynamic process, with new dominant clones emerging at each stage. Therefore, the top 20 clones at each time point do not necessarily represent the overall top 20 clones across all time points. However, there is still some overlap in the dominant TCR clones. We have chosen to present the data from P2, which provides the most complete results throughout the entire treatment process.

      Author response image 2.

      Please also assess if the expanded clonotypes are present (and expanded) in the cancer tissue at resection, to link the effect in blood to the tumour. Given that tissue was collected for 31 patients, mRNA sequencing to generate TCR data should be possible to add to the blood analyses in the 12 patients in Figure 3A. Without this data no clear link can be made to events in the cancer.

      Thanks for your comment. Due to limitations in sampling conditions, we were unable to collect samples from all patients at every time point. As shown in Fig. 3A, we performed tissue sampling and RNA sequencing on five patients (P1, P2, P4, P5, P7) before treatment. During the surgical phase, we sampled and conducted RNA sequencing on three patients (P2, P5, P6). This study primarily focuses on TCR analysis in peripheral blood. The relationship between peripheral blood TCR and tissue TCR clones will be addressed in future research.

      Please provide in M&M the missing information on the flow cytometry methodology (instrument, antibody clones, gating strategy) and what markers were used to define T cell subsets (naïve, memory, central memory, effector memory).

      Thanks for your comment. In this study, we evaluated immune cells based on RNA sequencing results rather than using flow cytometry. Subsequently, we compared T cell subsets between the baseline and post-neoadjuvant treatment stages. The steps for RNA sequencing and the evaluation of immune cells using the xCell and ImmunoCellAI algorithms are detailed in the Methods and Materials section. The comparison of T cell subsets is presented in Fig. S3. The estimated immune cell data have been added to Tables S5 and S6.

      The authors also describe that ctDNA reduces after chemo-ICI treatment. This is well documented in their data but ultimately irrelevant: if the cancer volume is reduced to the degree of a radiological or pathological response /complete response then the quantity of circulating DNA from the cancer cells must reduce. More interesting would be the question whether early changes predict clinical outcome and whether recurrent ct DNA elevations herald recurrence.

      Thanks for your comment. If the tumor responds to treatment, its volume will decrease. Over the long term, ctDNA levels in the blood are expected to decline. However, in the short term, as tumor cells are killed, there may be a surge of ctDNA released into the patient's bloodstream, potentially causing a rise in the maxVAF. Based on the current follow-up data, the ctDNA maxVAF for patient P8 has increased compared to baseline levels. However, given the relatively short follow-up period, no recurrence has been observed yet.

      Please probe whether the molecular data identify good radiological or pathological outcomes before cycle 2 is started and whether the ctDNA levels identify patients who will have a poor response and/or who relapse early.

      Thanks for your comment. Before initiating Cycle 2 of treatment, we observed all patients whom performed ctDNA sequencing. Among them, Patients P1 to P4 were classified as MPR, whereas Patients P5 to P9 were categorized as non-MPR. It was noted that Patients P7 and P8 showed a trend of increasing maximum variant allele frequency (maxVAF) in their ctDNA. Thus, 50% (2 out of 4) of the MPR patients could be identified as having potential issues through molecular testing before Cycle 2. Additionally, only P3 experienced a recurrence, which was predicted by molecular testing prior to starting cycle 2.

      Author response image 3.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      I have some detailed comments for the authors:

      (1) Please explain the reason for putting forward the opinion that "cytotoxic drugs with standard doses and anti-PD1 antibody were administrated on the same day (9), which may result in unsatisfactory eradication rates and relatively high incidence of severe treatment-related adverse events (TRAEs)" (Page 3 Line 76), especially "unsatisfactory eradication rates". Is this based on actual evidence, or is it purely theoretical speculation?

      Thanks for your comment. Our team have done relative research to explore impact of the combined timing of PD-1/PD-L1 inhibitors and chemotherapy on the outcomes in patients with refractory lung cancer. Our findings suggest that administering PD-1/PD-L1 inhibitors 1-10 days (especially 3-5 days) after chemotherapy is superior to administering PD-1/PD-L1 inhibitors before or concurrent with chemotherapy in patients with refractory lung cancer, but this result needs to be further explored by prospective studies. So we infer that cytotoxic drugs with standard doses and anti-PD1 antibody were administrated on the same day may lead to unsatisfactory eradication rates and more side-effects.

      Yao W, Zhao X, Gong Y, Zhang M, Zhang L, Wu Q, et al. Impact of the combined timing of PD-1/PD-L1 inhibitors and chemotherapy on the outcomes in patients with refractory lung cancer. ESMO Open. 2021;6(2):100094.

      (2) Due to the lack of a control group, we cannot assess the advantages and disadvantages of this treatment strategy compared to standardized neoadjuvant immuno-chemotherapy. We can refer to historical data. In the current clinical trials on neoadjuvant chemotherapy combined with immunotherapy (CheckMate-816, etc), what is the proportion of patients who had their chemotherapy reduced due to adverse reactions? Is there a difference in their efficacy? This could serve as a good historical reference.

      Thanks for your comment. In checkmate816, the rate of off neoadjuvant treatment in treatment group and control treatment group is 5.7% and 6.8% respectively. No patients have reduced their chemotherapy dosage due to intolerable side effects. However, it’s a excellent suggestion to find a historical refence, so we will check details in other clinical trials.

      (3) Among the 38 patients, there are 21 cases of SCC and 17 cases of LUAD. From the protocol, it can be seen that SCC patients had both albumin-bound paclitaxel and cisplatin reduced, whereas LUAD patients did not have a reduction in pemetrexed, only in cisplatin. Considering the different pathological subtypes and treatment strategies, I suggest the author to present the efficacy data for SCC and LUAD separately rather than combining them together.

      Thanks for your comment. In this cohort of 31 patients who underwent pathological evaluation, the ratio of squamous cell carcinoma (SCC) to lung adenocarcinoma (LUAD) was 16 vs 15. Upon comparing the groups, no statistically significant difference was observed in the treatment efficacy between SCC and LUAD patients.

      Author response table 1.

      (4) In the discussion, the authors mention that during the adjuvant treatment phase, "no significant change was observed in evenness or clonality of TCR" (Page 13, Line 364). However, in Figure 3E, it can be seen that the evenness and clonality of TCR during the adjuvant treatment phase (i.e., C3) are significantly increased (P < 0.05).

      Thanks for your comment. For the TCR repertoire evenness and clonality, we present these metrics in Fig. S2 B-C. Throughout the treatment process of all patients, there were no significant changes in the Pielou index (representing evenness) or clonality. In Fig. 3E, we defined TCR clones with a frequency greater than 0.001 as "large clones" and examined their changes during cycle 1 and cycle 3. Therefore, although there was a significant increase in large clones during cycle 3, the overall TCR evenness and clonality did not show notable changes.

      (5) The authors indicated that low-dose chemotherapy does not inhibit TCR expansion; however, due to the lack of a control group, we cannot conclude that "standard doses would affect TCR expansion." To better explore this possibility, please analyze the differences in TCR expansion between patients with bone marrow suppression and those without.

      We analyzed the incidence of bone marrow suppression in patients who underwent blood TCR testing. The statistical results are shown in the figure below. Patients were grouped based on the presence or absence of bone marrow suppression to compare differences in TCR clonal dynamics between the two groups during neoadjuvant therapy. As shown in the figure below, patients in the non-bone marrow suppression group exhibited higher TCR diversity (SW score) during treatment compared to those in the bone marrow suppression group. During neoadjuvant therapy, the dominant clones in both groups significantly increased from c2d0 to c2d5. However, from c1d0 to c2d0, there was no significant change observed in the non-bone marrow suppression group, possibly due to the limited sample size. Additionally, Patient P11 in the non-bone marrow suppression group showed a downward trend in dominant clones from c1d5 to c2d0, which may have influenced the overall results for this group during this phase.

      Author response table 2.

      Author response image 4.

      (6) In the analysis of ctDNA maxVAF, I noticed that one patient showed a significant drop at T1 (after C1 chemotherapy), followed by a notable rebound at T2 (after C1 delayed immunotherapy), and then a decline again at T3 (after C2 chemotherapy). Theoretically, maxVAF can reflect tumor burden and should change in accordance with treatment response. Could this indicate that the patient has a poor response to the delayed immunotherapy without concurrent chemotherapy? Additionally, please examine this patient's efficacy separately. What is the status of dynamic TCR? Does it show a trend opposite to that of maxVAF?

      Thanks for your comment. For Patient P7, the radiological evaluation reached PR, while the pathological assessment was non-MPR. The naming of time points has been revised according to the requirements: T0, T1, T2, and T3 were changed to c1d0, c1d5, c2d0, and c2d5, respectively. Combining both radiological and pathological evaluations, the patient experienced a certain degree of tumor shrinkage during neoadjuvant therapy but still retained some residual tumor cells. Theoretically, maxVAF can reflect the tumor burden in the bloodstream as a real-time indicator of treatment response. For patients with long-term benefits, maxVAF is expected to decrease as tumors are eliminated. However, in the short term, the release of large amounts of clonal ctDNA from destroyed tumor cells may lead to a temporary increase in maxVAF. Therefore, it is not possible to conclude that this patient had an adverse response to delayed immunotherapy based on individual cases. The increase in maxVAF from c1d5 to c2d0 might result from the extensive release of newly exposed antigens. During this period, the top 20 and large clone TCRs did not show significant changes, suggesting that the patient's immune response was insufficient, leading to suboptimal neoadjuvant treatment efficacy and failure to achieve MPR. Additionally, there were no noticeable changes in maxVAF or TCR metrics from c1d0 to c2d0 for this patient, indicating that there is no evidence to suggest an inverse trend between TCR and maxVAF.

      Author response image 5.

      (7) In line with the previous question, another patient's maxVAF shows a significant rebound at T3. Please examine this patient's efficacy as well as the status of dynamic TCR.

      Thanks for your comment. For Patient P4, the radiographic assessment showed SD, while the pathological assessment indicated a MPR. Although the reduction rate of the tumor volume in this patient was low, the tumor cell content within the lesion was less than 10%, which suggests that this patient had a good response to neoadjuvant therapy. From c1d0 to c2d0, the maxVAF of this patient showed a downward trend, while there was no significant change in the dominant clone indices of the TCR. From c2d0 to c2d5, both the maxVAF and the TCR dominant clone indices increased significantly. This implies that this patient had a stronger immune response level compared to Patient P7.

      Author response image 6.

      Minor Comments:

      (1) Figure 2E shows only OS, but the corresponding description in the text mentions that OS and DFS are not reached.

      Thanks for your comment. Both OS and disease-free survival (DFS) records are available in Table S1. By January 31, 2025, the follow-up data were updated for 31 patients in Supplementary Table1. Among them, three patients experienced tumor recurrence, one of whom passed away. Additionally, seven patients were lost to follow-up. As a result, neither the overall survival (OS) nor the progression-free survival (PFS) reached the median number of events required for analysis. Since neither OS nor DFS have reached their median values, we opted to display only the OS in Fig. 2E.

      (2) In the Discussion section, it is mentioned that there is controversy regarding chemotherapy combined with immunotherapy. I disagree with this statement. I believe that chemotherapy combined with immunotherapy is a consensus. The wording should be revised accordingly.

      Thanks for your comment. Yes, as you said, the combination of chemotherapy and immunotherapy has become a consensus. What we want to express is that how to optimize the administration time and dosage is worth further exploration. We will make a revise accordingly (Discussion line 328-331).

      (3) The authors mentioned that the study involves multi-omics, but only ctDNA and TCR levels are included, with no RNA-related content observed. Perhaps a different term could be used.

      Thanks for your comment. In this study, we employed a multi-omics approach involving whole transcriptome, ctDNA, and TCR sequencing to investigation. RNA-related analyses are presented in Figure S3. Given that our primary focus is on the impact of this modified treatment on immune cells, we utilized RNA sequencing results to estimate immune cell compositions using the xCell and immunCellAI algorithms. The estimated immune cell profiles have been added to Supplementary Tables 5 and 6.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Additional comment to the authors:

      The methods section refers to mRNA sequencing of the tumour tissue to define immune cell populations. Figure 3A also identifies that up to two timepoints were to be sequenced for individual patients. I could not find the results in the document.

      Please review the methods section and remove experimental methods where no data are presented.

      Thanks for your comment. As shown in Fig. 3A, for the mRNA data, we sampled and sequenced five patients (P1, P2, P4, P5, P7) before treatment. During the surgical phase, we sampled and sequenced three patients (P2, P5, P6). Then we utilized RNA sequencing results to estimate immune cell compositions using the xCell and immunCellAI algorithms. The estimated immune cell data have been added to Supplementary Tables 5 and 6. The T cells proportion comparisons were shown in fig. S3. The description of Whole transcriptome sequencing and immune cell abundance estimation were detailed in methods section.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer 1

      Since they used PBMCs, without other assays to confirm the cell subtypes, I am not sure if any of the heterogeneity they detected in 6 cytokine secretion would be able to relate back to biology.

      We agree with the reviewer that we cannot relate cytokine secretion back to specific cell populations and that part of the heterogeneity observed is due to various cellular populations and subpopulations. However, we would argue that the results obtained from measuring PBMCs especially relate to biology, not cellular identity, and provide useful information on how PBMCs will respond to a specific challenge since they offer more clinical relevance in patient stratification and monitoring. Thus, the possibility of identifying trends in polyfunctional cytokine secretion is not hindered by the isolated view of one specific cellular subpopulation. However, we agree that future experiments must identify the polyfunctional cells and decipher the extent of heterogeneity within the population.

      In addition, the two panels were measured on separate cells, I am not sure it is meaningful to make any comparisons of the two panels as they are on different cells.

      Thank you for mentioning this point. If this refers to Figure 3, where we compare the percentage of secreting cells incubation times, these cells are all individual data points, i.e., individual cells and then pooled. It is true that, potentially, these could be similar cell types (a cell co-secreting TNFa/IL-6 could also co-secrete IL-8/MIP-1a). Since they originate from the same cell batch and stimulation, only divided before encapsulation, we think it is a valid comparison as this would also be done in ELISpot or similar techniques.

      Reviewer 2

      The conclusions of the study are based on samples from a single donor, which makes the conclusions on secretion patterns difficult to interpret. The choice of cytokines is explained, but the justification of the groupings of the antibodies into the two panels is missing.

      Thank you for highlighting this valid criticism. We chose to use cells from one donor to examine the secretion patterns observed in one individual, as cells from different individuals might respond differently. The focus of the experiments described in this study was to describe secretion patterns with respect to the incubation times and secreted cytokine, including multiple donors, which would address a different question (i.e., how is polyfunctionality different between individuals). The cytokines were grouped according to expected secretion to observe overlaps between different cell types (to increase the chance of seeing secretion from both panels simultaneously). We have added complementary text discussing the justification of cytokine grouping in the updated manuscript.

      It would further be helpful to discuss how the single cell incubation might affect the secretion dynamics vs. the influence of co-culture of all cell types during the 24 h activation.

      Thank you for this input. We discussed this potential limitation in detail in a previous publication (Portmann et al., Cell Reports Methods, 2023) and added some addressing sentences to the discussion.

      The authors compare average secretion rates and levels. However, the right panel in Fig. 6 looks like there might be two different populations of mono- or polyfuntional cells that have two secretion rates. As the authors have single-cell data, I would find the separation into these populations more meaningful than comparing the mean values. In line with this comment, comparing the mean values for these cytokines instead of the mean of the populations with distinct seretion properties might actually show stronger differences than the authors report here.

      Thank you for this addition. This plot focuses on describing the relationship between secretion and incubation times. We agree that the data can be further divided into high and low secretion and the respective average plot. However, we finally decided against such a solution to avoid bias due to small event counts in certain high- and low-polysecreting populations. We checked whether dynamics are different between these populations, and the individual averages largely follow the overall trend, although on different plateaus – indeed, high-secreting cells will reach a plateau due to saturation. We have added the plot for IFNy here to visualize this point.

      Author response image 1.

      Is the plateau of the cytokine concentration caused by the fluorescence signal saturating the camera, saturation of the magnetic beads, exhaustion of the fluorescent antibodies, or constant cytokine concentrations?

      Thank you for raising this point. On the individual cell level, the plateau is caused by assay capacity limitations for high-secreting cell populations, i.e., the capacity of the nanoparticles. For low secreting populations, the plateau is caused by a cease in secretion, whereas for high-secreting cells, the capacity will be limiting. This has been extensively discussed in Portmann et al., Cell Report Methods, 2023.

      The high number of non-CSCs and the limited number of droplets decrease the statistical power of the method. The authors discuss their choice to use PBMCs and not solely T cells, but this aspect is missing in the discussion.

      As mentioned above, we chose PBMCs for their better representability and heterogeneity in clinical settings. Indeed, focusing on secreting cell subpopulations would increase the percentage of CSCs and the number, but we found the method to be sufficiently statistically powerful for our measurements. However, we also agree with the comment raised by reviewer 1 that a focus on a specific cell population might be interesting for many questions and applications. We have added respective text to the discussion section.

      The absolute cell number is missing. This might also answer the question of whether polyfunctional cells turn into monofunctional cells after stimulation for 24 hours or if the monofunctional population expands more.

      We are unsure of this comment. If the reviewer refers to a potential expansion ex vivo over 24 h, we have checked this for different conditions and could not observe cellular expansion within this timeframe – the numbers remained mostly stable, sometimes decreasing and only increasing in CD3/CD28. However, an overall change in cell counts does not necessarily relate to the functionalities of individual cells. This observation, combined with our results, hints towards a dynamic cellular restriction of polyfunctionality, but is no direct evidence for such a hypothesis as individual cells need to be followed in such an experiment over a much larger time frame.

      Fig. 4: Using a divergent colour scheme would be helpful. Fig. 6: Adding labels with the stimulation next to the plots would be helpful.

      We have changed the figures accordingly.

      A limitation of the approach is that the detection of polyfunctionality relies on how the three cytokines in each panel are selected and comparisons between the two panels are not otherwise helpful. Can the authors discuss how many panels would be needed to fully explore polyfunctionality among the six cytokines?

      Thank you for this comment. We agree that the identification of polyfunctional cells is dependent on the panel selection, and its composition. We had to select respective panels, and based our initial choice for this study on expected secretion behavior from PBMCs, instead of engineering panels specific for one cell type. However, these panels can be adapted to study additional questions. Interesting point. 6 cytokines into groups of 3 allows for 20 possible combinations. However, we very rarely see triple positive polyfunctional cells, and not all combinations would make sense due to cellular restrictions and differences in stimulations.

      Is there any way to increase the number of cytokines that could be detected in one droplet?

      This can be done on a lower throughput scale by removing the Cell Trace violet stain. This would allow the current method to measure up to 4 cytokines. An alternative would be adding different fluorophores without spectral overlap so that the throughput could increase to around 6-7 max, allowing us to measure polyfunctionality in a less biased manner. Other solutions are needed if >6-7 cytokines should be measured. Our experiments (with high-throughput cytokine detection systems, Fireplex and Isoplexis, i.e., 17-18 cytokines) showed that cells rarely secreted more than three cytokines at a time.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Ma, Yang et al. report a new investigation aimed at elucidating one of the key nutrients S. Typhimurium (STM) utilizes with the nutrient-poor intracellular niche within the macrophage, focusing on the amino acid beta-alanine. From these data, the authors report that beta-alanine plays an important role in mediating STM infection and virulence. The authors employ a multidisciplinary approach that includes some mouse studies and ultimately propose a mechanism by which panD, involved in B-Ala synthesis, mediates the regulation of zinc homeostasis in Salmonella. The impact of this work is questionable. There are already many studies reporting Salmonella-effector interactions, and while this adds to that knowledge it is not a significant advance over previous studies. While the authors are investigating an interesting question, the work has two important weaknesses; if addressed, the conclusions of this work and broader relevance to bacterial pathogenesis would be enhanced.

      Strengths:

      This reviewer appreciates the multidisciplinary nature of the work. The overall presentation of the figure graphics are clear and organized.

      Weaknesses:

      First, this study is very light on mechanistic investigations, even though a mechanism is proposed. Zinc homeostasis in cells, and roles in bacteria infections, are complex processes with many players. The authors have not thoroughly investigated the mechanisms underlying the roles of B-Ala and panD in impacting STM infection such that other factors cannot be ruled out. Defining the cellular content of Zn2+ STM in vivo would be one such route. With further mechanistic studies, the possibility cannot be ruled out that the authors have simply deleted two important genes and seen an infection defect - this may not relate directly to Zn2+ acquisition.

      Thank you for your patient and thoughtful reading, as well as the constructive comments and advice regarding our manuscript. We have revised the manuscript based on your comments and suggestions.

      You are correct that this work has not thoroughly investigated the mechanisms underlying the roles of β-alanine, panD, and zinc in impacting Salmonella infection. It is challenging to isolate sufficient amounts of Salmonella from infected cells or tissues and then measure the zinc concentration in the bacteria, and we have attempted to do so without success. Therefore, we investigated the zinc content in mouse liver and RAW264.7 cells infected with Salmonella Typhimurium 14028s wild-type (WT) and panD mutant (Δ_panD_), which can indirectly reflect zinc acquisition by intracellular Salmonella. We observed that the zinc content in Δ_panD_-infected mouse liver macrophages and RAW264.7 cells was increased compared with that in WT-infected mouse liver macrophages and RAW264.7 cells, respectively (Figures 5E and 6A). This implies that the panD gene and β-alanine are important for Salmonella to absorb zinc from host cells. This information has been added to the revised manuscript (lines 325-329, 344-348).

      Meanwhile, we concur that additional, unknown mechanisms are involved in the virulence regulation by β-alanine in Salmonella. Our findings indicate that the double mutant Δ_panD_Δ_znuA_, which cannot synthesize β-alanine nor uptake zinc, is more attenuated than the single mutant Δ_znuA_ (Figures 5D and 6B). This suggests that the contribution of β-alanine to Salmonella's virulence is partially dependent on zinc acquisition. We have revised the related descriptions throughout the manuscript for clarity (lines 31, 304, 341,1056, 1068).

      Second, the authors hint at their newly described mechanism/pathway being important for disease and possibly a target for therapeutics. This claim is not justified given that they have employed a single STM strain, which was isolated from chickens and is not even a clinical isolate. The authors could enhance the impact of their findings and relevance to human disease by demonstrating it occurs in human clinical isolates and possibly other serovars. Further, the use of mouse macrophage as a model, and mice, have limited translatability to human STM infections.

      We thank you for your comments and advice on our manuscript and are delighted to accept them. Salmonella Typhimurium causes systemic disease in mice, which is similar to the symptoms of typhoid fever in humans and has been widely used to explore the pathogenesis of Salmonella. Based on your comment, we have now performed additional experiments to confirm several key points of our findings in another typical Salmonella serovar, Salmonella enterica serovar Typhi, which is a human-limited serovar and the cause of typhoid fever in humans (PLoS Pathog. 2012, 8(10):e1002933).

      We constructed the panD mutant strain (ΔpanD) in the S. Typhi strain Ty2 and  subsequently compared the replication of ΔpanD with that of the Ty2 wild-type in the human THP-1 monocyte like cell line (ATCC TIB-22) using gentamicin protection assays. The results showed that the replication of ΔpanD in THP-1cells was reduced by 2.6-fold at 20 h post-infection compared to the Ty2 wild-type strain  (P < 0.01) (Figure 2_figure Supplement 3), suggesting that panD also facilitates S. Typhi replication in human macrophages and may be involved in the systemic infection of S. Typhi in humans. This result has been included in the revised manuscript. (lines 203-210).

      Based on these results, we speculate that PanD may serve as a potential target for treating Salmonella infection.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Line 28. Latin phrases like de novo should be italicized.

      Thank you for your careful review. We have revised the manuscript thoroughly (Lines 28, 65, 77, 106, 171, 173, 214, 1002, 1023, 1078).

      (2) Line 45. 'survival' typo.

      We have corrected it in the revised manuscript (Line 45).

      (3) Line 57. What evidence or prior work supports the SCV of macrophages in a nutrient-poor environment? Citation needed.

      The relevant reference has now been added (lines 62-63).

      (4) Lines 65-68. If an 'increasing number of studies have focused' on this topic, please cite them here.

      The relevant reference has now been added (lines 72-73).

      (5) Lines 69-71. Citations are needed for these claims.

      The relevant reference has now been added (lines 76-77, 79-80).

      (6) Line 76-77. Citation needed for this claim.

      The relevant reference has now been added (lines 84, 86).

      (7) Line 116-122, and Figure 1C, and Figure 1 legend. An important claim in this work is that the amino acid content of the macrophage cytoplasm is different +/- STM infection. The authors need to explain this result more carefully and define their acronyms. What is VIP, Log2 FC, etc.? What do the colors in Figure 1C mean? They are not defined. If possible, it would be more approachable to list these as molar concentrations, weight/cell, or number of molecules/cell. The authors should calculate an effect size for each of these data to help assess if the differences are meaningful. Without this information, and a clearer explanation of what these data are, it is difficult to evaluate the authors' claim that "8 [amino acids] showed significant differences in abundance."

      Thank you for the comment. The full names of VIP (Variable Importance in the Projection) and FC (fold change) have been included in the revised manuscript. In Figure 1C of the original manuscript, pink represents the content of amino acids that increased following Salmonella infection, whereas blue signifies the content of amino acids that decreased after Salmonella infection.

      Based on your suggestion, we have revised Figure 1C (now Figure 1C, D in the revised manuscript) and the content of amino acids is now expressed as weight per cell (ng/ 10<sup>7</sup> cells). The legend has been updated accordingly. (lines 9931-997).

      (8) Line 134-138. Additional controls are required for this experiment. By adding a nutrient (B-Ala) you have increased the nutrient availability and growth potential of the bacteria. This may not relate to anything special to B-Ala. Perhaps the addition of another amino acid, or sugar, would have a similar impact. Further, this result would be more compelling if the authors demonstrated a dose-dependent effect of B-Ala addition.

      Thank you for the comment. To further confirm that host-derived β-alanine can promote intracellular Salmonella replication, we have added varying concentrations of β-alanine (0.5, 1, 2, and 4 mM) to the culture medium (RPMI) of RAW264.7 cells. Subsequently, we infected these cells with Salmonella to assess the impact of β-alanine supplementation on the bacterium's replication within macrophages. Our observations indicate that the addition of 1, 2, and 4 mM β-alanine significantly (P < 0.001) enhanced Salmonella replication in RAW264.7 cells. Furthermore, the increase in Salmonella intracellular replication was dose-dependent, as illustrated in the revised Figure 1E. These findings suggest that host-derived β-alanine facilitates Salmonella replication inside macrophages. We have included these results in the revised manuscript (lines 141-149).

      (9) Lines 181-184, and Figure 2E. In addition to the fold-change replication data, here and elsewhere the authors should provide raw CFU counts for data transparency.

      Thank you for bringing this to our attention. In this work, we have utilized “fold intracellular replication (20 h intracellular bacterial CFU/ 2 h intracellular bacterial CFU)” to illustrate the differences in intracellular replication of different Salmonella strains in macrophages. The term “fold intracellular replication” is commonly employed in recently published reports (eg. FEMS Microbiol Lett. 2024, 9;371:fnae067; mBio. 2024, 15(7):e0112824; Front Microbiol. 2024, 14:1340143). To ensure data transparency, we have included the raw CFU counts in the source data file.

      (10) Line 197. Why employ i.p. injection of STM? As a non-typhoidal serovar, STM infection is enteric, and so i.p. injection seems very artificial if the goal is to understand the role B-Ala synthesis in disease.

      Thank you for the comment. Salmonella can induce gastroenteritis or systemic infection, which are associated with its capacity to invade intestinal epithelial cells and replicate within macrophages, respectively. In this study, using gentamicin protection assays and immunofluorescence analysis, we demonstrated that β-alanine is crucial for Salmonella replication inside macrophages. Since replication in macrophages is a key determinant of systemic Salmonella infection, we hypothesized that β-alanine also affects Salmonella systemic infection in vivo. Intraperitoneal (i.p.) injection enables Salmonella to disseminate directly to systemic sites via the lymphatic and bloodstream systems, bypassing the need for intestinal invasion (Microbiol Res. 2023, 275:127460; Int Immunopharmacol. 2016, 31:233-8). Thus, we conducted the mice infection assays via intraperitoneal (i.p.) injection to ascertain whether β-alanine affects systemic Salmonella infection. We have included the description in the revised manuscript to enhance clarity. (lines 217-221).

      Whether β-alanine influences Salmonella invasion of intestinal epithelial cells and intestinal colonization has not been investigated in this work; this issue will be explored in our future studies.

      (11) Line 207-214 and Figure 3. If the hypothesis is that B-Ala mediates STM survival/virulence through enhancing metabolism in the SCV and intracellular niche, why did the authors not investigate/enumerate STM in this niche in their in vivo studies?

      Thank you for the comment. Through immunofluorescence staining, we have investigated the bacterial count of Salmonella wild-type (WT), panD mutant (Δ_panD_), and complemented strain (cpanD) within the macrophages of the mouse liver. The findings indicated that the number of Δ_panD_ in each liver macrophage was significantly (P < 0.0001) lower than that of WT, and the complementation of Δ_panD_ increased the bacterial count in each liver macrophage to the level of WT (refer to Figure 3E in the revised manuscript). These results have been included in the revised manuscript. (lines 234-239).

      (12) Figure 4B - the down genes label is cut off.

      Thank you for your careful review. We have corrected it in the revised Figure 4B.

      (13) Line 260-265. SPI-2 needs to be defined and introduced, as do other terms here, to make the work approachable to non-STM specialists.

      The introduction of SPI-2 has been added to the revised manuscript. (Lines 290-292).

      (14) Line 300-301. Additional experiments are needed to support the claim that "data indicate that β-alanine promotes in vivo virulence of Salmonella, partially by increasing the expression of zinc transporter genes." Gene up- or down-regulation does not necessarily have any meaningful impact on function or activity. The authors here need an assay that confirms that the function of znuA is disrupted, such as examining the cell Zn2+ content in vivo at different levels of B-Ala exposure and/or panD activity. Moreover, more Zn2+ is not necessarily beneficial for STM, at levels too high zinc can exert cell toxicity. So, the authors have a correlation but no data supporting this mechanism explains their observations of virulence and infection. How much Zn2+ is ideal for STM growth?

      Thank you for the comment. It is challenging to isolate sufficient amounts of Salmonella from infected cells or tissues and then measure the zinc concentration in the bacteria, and we have attempted to do so without success. Therefore, we investigated the zinc content in mouse liver and RAW264.7 cells infected with Salmonella Typhimurium 14028s wild-type (WT) and panD mutant (ΔpanD), which can indirectly reflect zinc acquisition by intracellular Salmonella. We observed that the zinc content in Δ_panD_-infected mouse liver macrophages and RAW264.7 cells was increased compared with that in WT-infected mouse liver macrophages and RAW264.7 cells, respectively (Figures 5E and 6A). This implies that the panD gene and β-alanine are important for Salmonella to absorb zinc from host cells. This information has been added to the revised manuscript (lines 325-329, 344-348).

      Zinc is essential for bacterial survival and growth, as zinc-binding proteins constitute approximately 5% of the bacterial proteome and play crucial roles in bacterial metabolism and growth (J Proteome Res. 2006, 5(11):3173-8; Future Med Chem. 2017, 9(9):899-910). Regarding Salmonella, zinc is also employed to undermine the antimicrobial host defense mechanisms of macrophages, by inhibiting NF-кB activation and impairing NF-кB-dependent bacterial clearance (J Biol Chem. 2018, 293(39):15316-15329; Infect Immun. 2017, 85(12):e00418-17). Thus, the efficient acquisition of zinc may play a crucial role in the survival and replication of Salmonella within macrophages, where zinc availability is extremely limited (Infect Immun. 2007, 75(12):5867-76; Biochim Biophys Acta. 2016, 1860(3):534-41). It has been reported that Salmonella utilizes the high-affinity ZnuABC zinc transporter to maximize zinc availability within host cells (Infect Immun. 2007, 75(12):5867-76). Here, we discovered that β-alanine can enhance the expression of the zinc transporter genes znuABC, which might serve as a supplementary mechanism for the efficient uptake of zinc by Salmonella within macrophages.

      You are correct that more zinc is not necessarily beneficial for Salmonella, as excessive zinc can inhibit the growth of Salmonella. Considering that zinc availability is limited within macrophages and the znuABC genes are significantly upregulated when Salmonella resides inside macrophages (PLoS Pathog. 2015, 11(11):e1005262; Science. 2018, 362(6419):1156-1160), it is likely that zinc acts as a limiting factor and may not attain very high concentrations during Salmonella's growth within macrophages. We have included a discussion on this matter in the revised manuscript.t (lines 459-466).

      (15) Figure 6B. Related to the above, these data would be more compelling with higher n and a dose-dependent response demonstrated for Zn2+ addition. This is a central point of the manuscript, and effectively what the authors propose as the underlying mechanism, and it should be more robustly substantiated.

      Thank you for the comment. As stated in the previous response, we were unable to directly assess the bacterial zinc concentration during Salmonella growth within macrophages. Instead, we investigated the zinc content in mouse liver and RAW264.7 cells infected with Salmonella Typhimurium 14028s wild-type (WT) and panD mutant (ΔpanD), which can indirectly reflect zinc acquisition by intracellular Salmonella. We observed that the zinc content in Δ_panD_-infected mouse liver macrophages and RAW264.7 cells was increased compared with that in WT-infected mouse liver macrophages and RAW264.7 cells, respectively (Figures 5E and 6A). This implies that the panD gene and β-alanine are important for Salmonella to absorb zinc from host cells. Moreover, considering that zinc availability is limited within macrophages and the znuABC genes are significantly upregulated when Salmonella resides inside macrophages (PLoS Pathog. 2015, 11(11):e1005262; Science. 2018, 362(6419):1156-1160), it is likely that zinc acts as a limiting factor and may not attain very high concentration during Salmonella's growth within macrophages.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Salmonella exploits host- and bacteria-derived β-alanine to efficiently replicate in host macrophages and cause systemic disease. β-alanine executes this by increasing the expression of zinc transporter genes and therefore the uptake of zinc by intracellular Salmonella.

      Strengths:

      The experiments designed are thorough and the claims made are directly related to the outcome of the experiments. No overreaching claims were made.

      Weaknesses:

      A little deeper insight was expected, particularly towards the mechanistic aspects. For example, zinc transport was found to be the cause of the b-alanine-mediated effect on Salmonella intracellular replication. It would have been very interesting to see which are the governing factors that may get activated or inhibited due to Zn accumulation that supports such intracellular replication.

      We appreciate your review and advice. To further investigate the mechanisms by which β-alanine, panD, and zinc influence Salmonella infection, we have conducted additional experiments as suggested. For instance, we examined the zinc content in mouse liver and RAW264.7 cells infected with Salmonella Typhimurium 14028s wild-type (WT) and panD mutant (Δ_panD_). This approach indirectly reflects zinc acquisition by intracellular Salmonella, as it is challenging to isolate sufficient amounts of the bacteria from infected cells or tissues for zinc concentration measurement. We observed that the zinc content in Δ_panD_-infected mouse liver macrophages and RAW264.7 cells was increased compared to that in WT-infected counterparts (Figures 5E and 6A). This suggests that the panD gene and β-alanine are crucial for Salmonella to absorb zinc from host cells. This new information has been included in the revised manuscript (lines 325-329, 344-348).

      Zinc is essential for bacterial survival and growth, as zinc-binding proteins constitute approximately 5% of the bacterial proteome and play crucial roles in bacterial metabolism and growth. (J Proteome Res. 2006, 5(11):3173-8; Future Med Chem. 2017, 9(9):899-910 ). Regarding Salmonella, zinc is also employed to undermine the antimicrobial host defense mechanisms of macrophages, by inhibiting NF-кB activation and impairing NF-кB-dependent bacterial clearance (J Biol Chem. 2018, 293(39):15316-15329; Infect Immun. 2017, 85(12):e00418-17). Thus, efficient zinc uptake could be crucial for Salmonella survival and replication within macrophages, where zinc availability is extremely limited (Infect Immun. 2007, 75(12):5867-76; Biochim Biophys Acta. 2016, 1860(3):534-41). It has been reported that Salmonella exploits the high-affinity ZnuABC zinc transporter to maximize zinc availability in host cells (Infect Immun. 2007, 75(12):5867-76). Here, we discovered that β-alanine can enhance the expression of the zinc transporter genes znuABC, which might serve as a supplementary mechanism for the efficient uptake of zinc by Salmonella within macrophages. We have addressed this issue in the revised manuscript (lines 459-466).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      A few general clarifications and suggested experiments:

      (1) Metabolome analysis: Salmonella can itself produce b-alanine. Given that it is isolated from infected cells where salmonella has scavenged b-alanine from host cytosol as well as produced it, how b-alanine levels went down in metabolome analysis is confusing.

      Thank you for the comment. The method for targeted metabolic profiling is conducted as outlined in a recently published paper by our group (Nat Commun. 2021, 12(1):879). To prevent delays and changes in metabolite concentrations during the separation of bacterial contents from macrophages, we determined the combined metabolite concentrations directly from infected cells and Salmonella. We observed that each Salmonella cell contained only 0.01%-0.02% of the concentration of each corresponding combined metabolite. Approximately 94% of the infected macrophages contained no more than ten bacteria at 8 hours post-infection, confirming that the combined metabolites were predominantly from the host. We have included an explanation of this issue in the method section. (lines 557-560).

      (2) What is the basal level of b-alanine produced by macrophages? How was 1 mM conc. chosen?

      According to our results, the content of β-alanine in uninfected RAW264.7 cells is 26-33 μM/10<sup>7</sup> cell (700-900 ng/10<sup>7</sup> cell). The 1 mM concentration was chosen based on a published report (Appl Microbiol Biotechnol. 2004, 65(5):576-82).

      Additionally, we have supplemented the culture medium (RPMI) of RAW264.7 cells with 0.5, 1, 2, and 4 mM β-alanine and subsequently infected them with Salmonella to assess the impact of β-alanine supplementation on the bacterium's replication within macrophages. Our observations revealed that the supplementation with 1, 2, and 4 mM β-alanine significantly (P < 0.001) enhanced Salmonella replication in RAW264.7 cells. Furthermore, the addition of β-alanine to the infected cells resulted in a dose-dependent increase in Salmonella intracellular replication, as depicted in Figure 1E. These findings further support the notion that host-derived β-alanine facilitates Salmonella replication within macrophages. This data has been incorporated into the revised manuscript (lines 141-149).

      (3) The antimicrobial activity of macrophages preventing the growth of intracellular Salmonella will primarily be governed by genes such as GBPs, defensins, nitric oxide, etc. The expression of these genes should be tested rather than cytokines which are secreted with little effect on intracellular Salmonella.

      Thank you for the suggestion. We have investigated the levels of ROS (reactive oxygen species) and RNS (reactive nitrogen species) in Salmonella-infected RAW264.7 cells, both in the presence and absence of 1 mM β-alanine. The results indicated that β-alanine did not affect the ROS and RNS levels in RAW 264.7 cells (Figure 1_figure Supplement 1), suggesting that β-alanine does not influence the antimicrobial activity of macrophages. We have included these results in the revised manuscript (lines150-153).

      (4) For animal experiments, how many times was the experiment repeated? Can the animal experiment be done with b-alanine supplementation and panD mutant? Can the liver be stained to detect the bacteria?

      Thank you for the comment.

      i) Mouse infection assays were conducted twice, with at least 2 mice (n ≥ 2) in each injection group. The combined data from the two experiments was used for statistical analysis. This information has been added to the revised manuscript. (lines 678-681).

      ii) As suggested, mice infected with the panD mutant (Δ_panD_) were administered β-alanine (500 mg/kg/day, Behav Brain Res. 2014, 272:131-40; Physiol Behav. 2015, 145:29-37) orally on a daily basis. On the third day post-infection, the bacterial burden in the liver and spleen and the body weight of the infected mice were measured. The results indicated that administering β-alanine to mice did not affect the bacterial burden of ΔpanD in the liver and spleen nor did it influence the body weight of the infected mice (please refer to Author response image 1 below). It has been reported that β-alanine is a rate-limiting precursor for the biosynthesis of carnosine in mammals (Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2010, 42(6):1162-73; Neurochem Int. 2010, 57(3):177-88). Following supplementation, β-alanine may be rapidly synthesized into carnosine in mice, and the free β-alanine, particularly that which enters the macrophages of the liver and spleen, may be limited and insufficient to enhance Salmonella replication.

      Author response image 1.

      iii) Through immunofluorescence staining, we have investigated the bacterial count of Salmonella wild-type (WT), panD mutant (Δ_panD_), and complemented strain (c_panD_) within the macrophages of the mouse liver. The findings indicate that the number of Δ_panD_ in each liver macrophage was significantly (P < 0.0001) lower than that of WT, and the complementation of Δ_panD_ increased the bacterial count in each liver macrophage to the level of WT (Figure 3E in the revised manuscript). These results have been included in the revised manuscript. (lines 234-239).

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Salmonella is interesting due to its life within a compact compartment, which we call SCV or Salmonella containing vacuole in the field of Salmonella. SCV is a tight-fitting vacuole where the acquisition of nutrients is a key factor by Salmonella. The authors among many nutrients, focussed on beta-alanine. It is also known from many other studies that Salmonella requires beta-alanine. The authors have done in vitro RAW macrophage infection assays and In vivo mouse infection assays to see the life of Salmonella in the presence of beta-alanine. They concluded by comprehending that beta-alanine modulates the expression of many genes including zinc transporters which are required for pathogenesis.

      Strengths:

      This study made a couple of knockouts in Salmonella and did a transcriptomic investigation to understand the global gene expression pattern.

      Weaknesses:

      The following questions are unanswered:

      (1) It is not clear how the exogenous beta-alanine is taken up by macrophages.

      We thank the reviewer for the question. It has been reported that β-alanine is transported into eukaryotic cells via the TauT (SLC6A6) and PAT1 (SLC36A1) transporters (Acta Physiol (Oxf). 2015, 213(1):191-212; Am J Physiol Cell Physiol. 2020 Apr 1;318(4):C777-C786; Biochim Biophys Acta. 1994, 1194(1):44-52.).

      (2) It is not clear how the Beta-alanine from the cytosol of the macrophage enters the SCV.

      According to the published report, translocation of SPI2 effector proteins induces the formation of specific tubular membrane compartments extend from the SCV, known as Salmonella-induced filaments (SIFs) (Traffic. 2001, 2(9):643-53; Traffic. 2007, 8(3):212-25; Traffic. 2008, 9(12):2100-16; Microbiology (Reading). 2012, 158(Pt 5):1147-1161). The membranes and lumens of both SIFs and SCVs form a continuous network, allowing vacuolar Salmonella to access various types of endocytosed materials (Front Cell Infect Microbiol. 2021, 11:624650; Cell Host Microbe. 2017, 21(3):390-402). We hypothesize that β-alanine may enter SCVs from the cytoplasm of macrophages via SIFs. This information has been included in the revised manuscript (lines 56-61).

      (3) It is not clear how the beta-alanine from SCV enters the bacterial cytosol.

      Thank you for the question. We have attempted to identify the transporter of β-alanine in Salmonella, but we found that the CycA transporter, which transports β-alanine in Escherichia coli, does not function in the same manner in Salmonella, despite Salmonella being closely related to E. coli.

      BasC is a bacterial LAT (L-Amino acid transporter) with an APC fold (J Gen Physiol. 2019, 151(4):505-517). The basC gene is reported to be present in the genomes of Pseudomonas, Acinetobacter, and Aeromonas, etc. Following your suggestion, we searched the genome of Salmonella Typhimurium at NCBI and did not find any basC gene or genes with a sequence similar to basC. Unfortunately, we have yet to identify the β-alanine transporter in Salmonella, and we will persist in our search in future work.

      (4) There is no clarity on the utilization of exogenous beta-alanine of the host and the de novo synthesis of beta-alanine by panD of Salmonella.

      Thank you for the comment. Our findings indicated that β-alanine levels were reduced in Salmonella-infected RAW264.7 cells. Furthermore, the addition of β-alanine to the culture medium (RPMI) of RAW264.7 cells significantly enhanced Salmonella replication, suggesting that the intracellular Salmonella utilize host-derived β-alanine for their growth. However, to date, we have not identified the transporter responsible for the uptake of exogenous β-alanine into the Salmonella cytosol.

      Moreover, we have discovered that the replication of the Salmonella panD mutant within macrophages and its virulence in mice are significantly reduced compared to the wild type (WT), indicating that the de novo synthesis of β-alanine is crucial for Salmonella's intracellular replication and virulence.

      These results indicate that either acquisition from the host or de novo synthesis of β-alanine is critical for Salmonella replication inside macrophages.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Cite this paper from 1985, which talks about the role of beta-alanine in Salmonella infection J Gen Microbiol,. 1985 May;131(5):1083-90. doi: 10.1099/00221287-131-5-1083. A Salmonella typhimurium strain defective in uracil catabolism and beta-alanine synthesis, T P West, T W Traut, M S Shanley, G A O'Donovan

      We have now cited this paper in the revised manuscript (lines 82-83).

      (2) BasC- can be important for beta-alanine transport. CycA transporter was not found to be involved in beta-alanine. However, it is important to find out which transporter is required for the uptake of beta-alaine.

      Thank you for pointing it out. We agree that it is important to determine which transporter is necessary for the uptake of β-alanine in Salmonella. BasC is a bacterial LAT (L-Amino acid transporter) with an APC fold (J Gen Physiol. 2019, 151(4):505-517). The basC gene is reported to be present in the genomes of Pseudomonas, Acinetobacter, and Aeromonas, etc. Following your suggestion, we searched the genome of Salmonella Typhimurium at NCBI and did not find any basC gene or genes with a sequence similar to basC. Unfortunately, we have yet to identify the β-alanine transporter in Salmonella, and we will persist in our search in future work.

      (3) Bacteria being quite stringent with its energy resources, it is unlikely that it will use de novo synthesis if the host resources are available. Only if the host resources are depleted, can it turn on the de novo synthesis involving panD. What is the status of fold-replication of panD mutant in the presence of exogenous addition of beta-alanine?

      Thank you for the comment. The addition of 1 to 4 mM of β-alanine increased the replication of the panD mutant (Δ_panD_) in RAW264.7 cells by 1.7- to 3.1-fold. This increase in Salmonella intracellular replication was dose-dependent, as shown in Figure 2H of the revised manuscript, further illustrating that host-derived β-alanine promotes Salmonella replication inside macrophages.

      We agree that bacteria are quite stringent with their energy resources. The results of this work indicate that either acquisition from the host or de novo synthesis of β-alanine is critical for Salmonella replication inside macrophages. We speculate that Salmonella relies on a large amount of β-alanine to efficiently replicate in macrophages, thereby highlighting the importance of β-alanine for Salmonella intracellular growth. We have discussed this issue in the revised manuscript. (lines 392-396).

      (4) 100% survival of animals infected with panD mutant is a bit of concern. What happens when beta-alanine is fed to mice and infected with panD mutant?

      Thank you for the comment. As suggested, mice infected with the panD mutant (ΔpanD) were administered β-alanine (500 mg/kg/day, as reported in Behav Brain Res. 2014, 272:131-40; Physiol Behav. 2015, 145:29-37) orally on a daily basis. On the third day post-infection, the bacterial load in the liver and spleen, as well as the body weight of the infected mice, were measured. The results indicated that administering β-alanine did not affect the bacterial load of Δ_panD_ in the liver and spleen nor did it influence the body weight of the infected mice (refer to Author response image 1). It has been reported that β-alanine is a rate-limiting precursor for the biosynthesis of carnosine in mammals (Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2010, 42(6):1162-73; Neurochem Int. 2010, 57(3):177-88). Following supplementation, β-alanine may be rapidly converted into carnosine in mice, and the free β-alanine, particularly that which enters the macrophages of the liver and spleen, may be limited and insufficient to enhance Salmonella replication.

      (5) How does beta-alanine from macrophages' cytosol enter the SCV.

      Thank you for pointing it out. According to published reports, the translocation of SPI2 effectors triggers the formation of specialized tubular membrane compartments, known as Salmonella-induced filaments (SIFs), which extend from the SCV (Traffic. 2001, 2(9):643-53; Traffic. 2007, 8(3):212-25; Traffic. 2008, 9(12):2100-16; Microbiology. 2012, 158:1147-1161). The membranes and lumens of SIFs and SCVs create a continuous network, allowing vacuolar Salmonella to access various types of endocytosed materials (Front Cell Infect Microbiol. 2021, 11:624650; Cell Host Microbe. 2017, 21(3):390-402). Consequently, it is plausible that β-alanine enters SCVs from the macrophage cytoplasm via SIFs. This information has been included in the revised manuscript.(lines 56-61).

      (6) It would be essential to dissect the role of exogenous beta-alanine and the use of de novo synthesized beta-alanine.

      We agree that it is essential to dissect the role of exogenous β-alanine and the use of de novo synthesized β-alanine. Our results indicate that Salmonella-infected macrophages exhibited lower levels of β-alanine compared to mock-infected macrophages. Furthermore, β-alanine supplementation in the cell medium enhanced Salmonella replication within macrophages in a dose-dependent manner, revealing that Salmonella utilizes host-derived β-alanine to promote intracellular replication. Additionally, a deficiency in the biosynthesis of β-alanine, resulting from mutation of the rate-limiting gene panD, led to reduced Salmonella replication in macrophages and systemic infection in mice. This suggests that Salmonella also employs bacterial-derived β-alanine to enhance intracellular replication and pathogenicity.

      We sought to identify the main transporters responsible for β-alanine uptake in Salmonella. Unfortunately, we have not yet found the transporter. We will address this issue in our future work.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment

      This study investigated the factors related to understudied genes in biomedical research. It showed that understudied genes are largely abandoned at the writing stage, and it identified a number of biological and experimental factors that influence which genes are selected for investigation. The study is a valuable contribution to this branch of meta-research, and while the evidence in support of the findings is solid, the interpretation and presentation of the results (especially the figures) needs to be improved.

      We thank the editor and reviewers for their detailed and thoughtful assessment of our work. Below, we present detailed responses to reviewers’ comments and suggestions. We are also submitting a version edited for clarity of presentation and precision of interpretation.

      Following the eLife assessment, we also tried to identify further statements where results could be presented in a more precise way.

      First, in the section Subsequent reception by other scientists does not penalize studies on understudied genes, we now state “This result again opposes the hypothesis that less-investigated genes will yield articles with lower impact.”

      Second, in section Identification of biological and experimental factors associated with selection of highlighted genes, we now state:

      “We cautiously hypothesize that this might reflect on many different research groups producing reagents surrounding the genes that they actively study. The most informative continuous factor is the number of research articles about a gene (Figure 1B).”, removing claims of causality.

      Finally, for improved readability, we have moved all supplemental tables into separate .xlsx files.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary and strengths

      The authors tried to address why only a subset of genes are highlighted in many publications. Is it because these highlighted genes are more important than others? Or is it because there are non-genetic reasons? This is a critical question because in the effort to discover new genes for drug targets and clinical benefit, we need to expand a pool of genes for deep analyses. So I appreciate the authors' efforts in this study, as it is timely and important. They also provided a framework called FMUG (short for Find My Understudied Gene) to evaluate genes for a number of features for subsequent analyses.

      We thank the reviewer for their insightful comments and are pleased that the reviewer shares our appreciation for the gravity of these questions. As the reviewer emphasizes, it is critical to understand whether the choice of genes reflects their importance or non-genetic reasons. Previously we and others demonstrated that this choice does not reflect biological importance, when the latter is assessed through unbiased genome-wide data (e.g.: Haynes et al., 2018; Stoeger et al. 2018). Now we contribute to this critical question by systematically evaluating individual non-genetic reasons. We address the reviewer’s comments below.

      Weaknesses

      Many of the figures are hard to comprehend, and the figure legends do not sufficiently explain them.

      For example, what was plotted in Fig 1b? The number of articles increased from results -> write-ups -> follow-ups in all four categories with different degrees. But it does not seem to match what the authors meant to deliver.

      We apologize for the lack of clarity. We identified two interrelated elements that we have now fixed: i) the prior figure legend provided for each genomics approach n number of articles, such as “GWAS (n=450 articles)”; ii) the prior y-axis was labelled “Number of articles”.

      Addressing the first element, we now rephrased the legend for clarity:

      “b, We identified articles reporting on genome-wide CRISPR screens (CRISPR, 15 focus articles and 18 citing articles), transcriptomics (T-omics, 148 focus articles and 1,678 citing articles), affinity purification–mass spectrometry (AP-MS, 296 focus articles and 1,320 citing articles), and GWAS (450 focus articles and 3,524 citing articles). Focusing only on protein-coding genes (white box plot), we retrieved data uploaded to repositories describing which genes came up as “hits” in each experiment (first colored box plot). We then retrieved the hits mentioned in the titles and abstracts of those articles (second colored box plot) and hits mentioned in the titles and abstracts of articles citing those articles (third colored box plot). Unique hit genes are only counted once.”

      The number of genes in each box plot is now reported in the x-axis labels for each step. For example, the results for CRISPR were obtained from 15 focus studies (original research) and 18 subsequent studies (papers citing focus articles). Those 15 studies identified 9,268 genes where loss-of-function changed phenotypes but, in their titles and abstracts, mentioned only 18 of those 9,268 genes. While the 9,268 hit genes have received similar research attention to the entirety of protein-coding genes, the 18 hit genes mentioned in the title or abstract are significantly more well studied. The articles citing the focus articles also only mentioned in their titles and abstracts 19 highly studied hit genes.

      Addressing the second element, we updated the axis label to “Number of articles about gene”, to distinguish it from number of articles mentioned in the legend, convey that this is the number of articles about each gene that were published independently of the genomics assays we inspect. To further underscore this point we now label the “20% highest-studied genes” that we mention in the main text, and reworded the figure caption to better capture where the critical increase occurs: “A shift in focus towards well-studied genes occurs during the summarization and write-up of results and remains in subsequent studies.”.

      Fig 4 is also confusing. It appears that the genes were clustered by many features that the authors developed. But does it have any relationship with genes being under- or over-studied?

      We again apologize for the lack of clarity. As is described in the main text, while the results of Figs. 1-2 suggest that gene popularity may be predict the highlighting of a differentially expressed gene in the title or abstract, we want to conduct a systematically analysis of the factors that correlate with such a decision. We thus build a set of 45 factors that have been discussed as factors explaining why some genes receive increased research attention.

      The data in Fig. 4 shows that those 45 factors are not independent but that some are highly correlated. Because of those correlations, we are able to select a smaller number as representative of the full set. Those are the default factors shown to users of FMUG. While users can choose all factors that are significantly correlated with the highlighting in title or abstract, the default of presenting factors representing different clusters of factors enabled us to limit the number of factors that are initially displayed.

      Please note that following the suggestion of Reviewer 3, we have now moved this Figure to the supplemental material, as Figure S11.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review)

      Summary and strengths

      In this manuscript the authors analyse the trajectory of understudied genes (UGs) from experiment to publication and study the reasons for why UGs remain underrepresented in the scientific literature. They show that UGs are not underrepresented in experimental datasets, but in the titles and abstracts of the manuscripts reporting experimental data as well as subsequent studies referring to those large-scale studies. They also develop an app that allows researchers to find UGs and their annotation state. Overall, this is a timely article that makes an important contribution to the field. It could help to boost the future investigation of understudied genes, a fundamental challenge in the life sciences. It is concise and overall well-written, and I very much enjoyed reading it. However, there are a few points that I think the authors should address.

      We thank the reviewer for their kind assessment.

      Weaknesses

      The authors conclude that many UGs "are lost" from genome-wide assay at the manuscript writing stage. If I understand correctly, this is based on gene names not being reported in the title or abstract of these manuscripts. However, for genome-wide experiments, it would be quite difficult for authors to mention large numbers of understudied genes in the abstract. In contrast, one might highlight the expected behaviour of a well-studied protein simply to highlight that the genome-wide study provides credible results.

      We agree that it is not reasonable to expect a title or abstract to highlight hundreds or even thousands of differentially expressed genes. We’ve now extended our Study Limitations section to address this:

      “we take a gene being mentioned in the title or abstract of an article as a proxy for a gene receiving attention by the article’s authors. The title and abstract are space-limited and thus cannot accommodate discussion of large numbers of genes.”

      We also agree that highlighting the expected behavior of a well-studied protein may provide credibility to a study and increase confidence on other results. The soundness of such a strategy was quantitatively studied in a study by Uzzi et al. (Science 2013), which we now include in the section on study limitations as:

      “authors beginning manuscripts with something familiar before introducing something new”.

      To convey the practical limitation of abstracts needing to be concise, we added the following sentence to our discussion section, when suggesting controlled trials that add genes to abstracts:

      “This intervention would need to be carefully designed since abstracts are limited in their size.”

      To avoid over-interpretation we have in the discussion also extended the sentence on “lost in a leaky pipeline” to “lost to titles and abstracts of research articles in a leaky pipeline”.

      Our focus on titles and abstracts has been equally motivated by their availability (full text still is often behind paywalls and/or not accessible for bulk-download and text-mining) and by abstracts being the most visible and most read parts of research articles (e.g.: bioRxiv estimates that for the preprint for the present manuscript, the abstract was read ~10 times more frequently than full-text HTML and 4 times more frequently than the pdf).

      Could this bias the authors' conclusions and, if so, how could this be addressed? For example, would it be worth to normalise studies based on the total number of genes they cover?

      We previously described that – in line with the reviewer’s expectations – unstudied genes are preferentially added to the title or abstract of articles that feature more genes in the title or abstract (Stoeger et al., Plos Biology, 2022; Fig. 2B). Normalizing by the total number of genes should thus preserve the pronounced division between well-studied genes and unstudied genes show in Figure 1B. In line with these predictions, we randomly select one gene per title/abstract and find that the effect remains (see new Figure S7).

      Author response image 1.

      Figure 1B is confusing in its present form. I think the plot and/or the legend need revising. For example, what "numbers to the right of each box plot" are the authors referring to? Also, I assume that the filled boxes are understudied genes and the empty/white box is "all genes", but that's not explained in the legend. In the main text, the figure is referred to with the sentence "we found that hit genes that are highlighted in the title or abstract are strongly over-represented among the 20% highest-studied genes in all biomedical literature ". I cannot follow how the figure shows this. My interpretation is that the y-axis is not showing the number of articles, but represents the percentage of articles mentioning a gene in the title/abstract, displayed on a log scale. If so, perhaps a better axis labels and legend text could be sufficient. But then one would also need to somehow connect this to the statement in the main text about the 20% highest-studied genes (a dashed line?). Alternatively, the authors could consider other ways of plotting these data, e.g. simply plotting the "% of publication in which a gene appears" from 0-100% or so.

      Reviewer 1 raised a similar point on overall figure clarity. We identified two interrelated elements that contribute to overall confusion and have now fixed them (see response to Reviewer 1 beginning on page 2 of this document).

      We attempted an alternative plotting of Fig 1B according to the reviewer’s suggestion. In the version below, the y-axis instead shows the percent of gene-related articles that are about each gene. We chose to keep the original y-axis (showing number of articles about each gene) as it additionally conveys the absolute scale of scholarship on individual genes.

      Author response image 2.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary and strengths

      The manuscript investigated the factors related to understudied genes in biomedical research. It showed that understudied are largely abandoned at the writing stage and identified biological and experimental factors associated with selection of highlighted genes.

      It is very important for the research community to recognize the systematic bias in research of human genes and take precautions when designing experiments and interpreting results. The authors have tried to profile this issue comprehensively and promoted more awareness and investigation of understudied genes.

      We thank the reviewer for their kind assessment of our work.

      Weaknesses

      Regarding result section 1 "Understudied genes are abandoned at synthesis/writing stage", the figures are not clear and do not convey the messages written in the main text. For example, in Figure 1B, figure S5 and S6,

      • There is no "numbers to the right of each box plot".

      The “numbers to the right” statement in the caption was an erroneous inclusion from an earlier version of the figure. We apologize for our error and have now removed this statement.

      • Do these box plots only show understudied genes? How many genes are there in each box plot? The definition and numbers of understudied genes are not clear.

      The x-axis describes genes featured in each stage of the publication process (from all protein-coding genes to genes found as hits in genome-wide screen to genes found in the title/abstract to genes found in the title/abstract of citing articles) and the y-axis describes the number of articles annotated to those genes. We have also now added the number of genes in each box plot to the figure. This information is also in Materials and Methods under each technology’s heading (see also response to Reviewer 1 beginning on page 2 of this document).

      Author response image 3.

      • "We found that hit genes that are highlighted in the title or abstract are strongly over-represented among the 20% highest-studied genes in all biomedical literature (Figure 1B)". This is not clear from the figure.

      We have revised Figure 1B and its caption to better communicate the main point of the figure: that genes which make it to the title/abstract of the reporting article tend to be more popular than genes which are hits in genome-wide experiments from those articles. We have added a horizontal line that shows the cutoff for the top 20% most popular genes.

      Regarding result section 2 "Subsequent reception by other scientists does not penalize studies on understudied genes", the authors showed in figure 2 that there is a negative correlation between articles per gene before 2015 and median citations to articles published in 2015. Another explanation could be that for popular genes, there are more low-quality articles that didn't get citations, not necessarily that less popular genes attract more citations.

      We believe that both explanations for the observed phenomenon are not mutually exclusive. Previously, we focused on the median of citations to articles about a gene to capture the typical effect. In a new analysis, we also find support for the possibility outlined by the reviewer and believe that adding this to our manuscript complements and balances our analysis of citations. Specifically, in the new Figure S8B we find that most popular genes are slightly more likely to be among least cited papers (and in Figure S8A that the least studied genes have been much more likely to be among the most cited papers). In-text, we state:

      “Further, since 1990, articles about the least popular genes have at times been 3 to 4 times more likely to be among the most cited articles than articles on the most popular genes whereas articles on the most popular genes have been slightly less to be highly cited than lowly cited (Figure S8)”.

      We thank the reviewer for their suggestion, which strengthens our manuscript. The figure caption reads:

      “Figure S8: Likelihoods of being highly cited (top 5% of citations among all articles about genes, panel a) or lowly cited (bottom 5% of citations among all articles about genes, panel b) for articles about the most popular genes (top 5% accumulated articles) versus articles about the least popular genes (bottom 5% accumulated articles) by year of publication. Only articles with a single gene in the title/abstract are considered. Shaded regions show ±1 standard error of the proportion."

      Author response image 4.

      Regarding result section 3 "Identification of biological and experimental factors associated with selection of highlighted genes", in Figure 3 and table s2, the author stated that "hits with a compound known to affect gene activity are 5.114 times as likely to be mentioned in the title/abstract in an article using transcriptomics", The number 5.144 comes out of nowhere both in the figure and the table. In addition, figure 4 is not informative enough to be included as a main figure.

      This is the result of both a typo and imprecise terminology. The number should read 4.262 (the likelihood ratio of being mentioned in the title/abstract between genes with and without a compound), which corresponds to an odds ratio of 4.331. We have clarified this in the table caption, stating:

      “e.g. hits with a compound known to affect gene activity are 4.262 times as likely to be mentioned in the title/abstract in an article using transcriptomics, corresponding to an odds ratio of 4.331".

      We have removed Figure 4 as a main-text figure and added a version, with revised color scheme along comments of Reviewer 1, as Figure S11. We added to the figure caption “Bold indicates FMUG ‘s default factors, which we selected based on this clustering and based on their strength of association with gene selection (Figure 3, Table S2 and Table S3)."

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      • Fig 2a shows that papers highlighting understudied genes are actually cited more. I wonder why authors only looked at data before 2015. Fig 2b shows an increased correlation since 2015. Please consider redrawing Fig 2a to include data from 2015-2020?

      We highlight data from 2015 since, from our used version of iCite (v32, released July 2022, covering citations made through most of 2021), papers published in 2015 have had about 6 years to accumulate citations. With fewer years to accumulate citations, insufficient signal may cause correlation to converge toward zero. Below, we repeat the analysis in Figure 2 but only considering citations made within a year of an article’s publication, which substantially reduces correlation (although remaining significant).

      Author response image 5.

      We added a note to the figure caption:

      “We forgo depicting more recent years than 2015 to allow for citations to accumulate over multiple years, providing a more sensitive and robust readout of long-term impact.”

      For Figure 2B, we add:

      “For more recent years, where articles have had less time to accumulate citations, insufficient signal may cause correlation to converge toward zero.”

      • Can FMUG be posted on the web for easy access by researchers with non-computational backgrounds?"

      We presently regretfully do not have the resources to create or maintain a web-based version. We hope that the publication of this manuscript will enable us to attract resources to create and maintain a web-based version.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      • Related to the first weakness in my public review: The observed disparity between CRISPR and GWAS study in terms of which genes they promote to the abstract is interesting. I wonder if this has to do with the application of these techniques. GWAS studies will often highlight that they retrieve known associations between a gene and a phenotype, to show that a screen is working. I guess often the point is to subsequently identify more genes associated with a particular phenotype, but often it is unclear how to validate/verify newly found associations. In contrast, CRISPR screens might be more focussed on functionally/mechanistically understanding unknown processes, e.g. observing a phenotype that appears/disappears in response to a gene deletion. In such studies, the follow-up of a previously unknown gene could be more straightforward and relevant to the outcome. Does that mean CRIPSR screens are better than GWAS studies for addressing the UG problem? Perhaps the authors could briefly discuss this issue.

      The number of studies we included featuring CRISPR screens is relatively small (n = 15 compared to n = 450 for GWAS). Thus, it is not possible to conclude in a statistically sound manner whether authors of CRISPR screens are truly more likely to highlight understudied genes.

      However, the reviewer raises compelling reasons for why this might be the case, and we now embed the broader discussion point that some techniques might be more powerful toward understudied genes.

      The discussion now includes:

      “Further, the observed discrepancy between the popularity of hits highlighted by GWAS versus other technologies suggests that some -omics technologies may be more powerful than others for characterizing understudied genes. This possibility merits further research and researchers participating in unknomics should consider the relative strengths of each technology towards providing tractable results for follow-up.”

      • Affinity capture mass spectrometry (Aff-MS): Perhaps I misunderstood this, but typically this is referred to as affinity purification MS (AP-MS)

      Thank you for the clarification. We have changed ‘Aff-MS’ to ‘AP-MS’ throughout the manuscript.

      • Page 3, line 96. The sentence "The first possibility is that seemingly understudied genes are, in fact, not understudied as they would rarely be identified through experiments.". Would they not still be understudied, just not intentionally?

      We have rephrased this sentence to:

      “The first possibility is that some genes are less studied because they are rarely identified as hits in experiments.”

      • Fig 4 is very interesting, but I also found it a bit confusing. First, the choice of colour scheme, where blue shows the absence and white shows the presence of something, seems counterintuitive, especially on a white background. Second, I find it confusing that only some of the experiments are labelled in the heatmap. Could the authors not simply use Fig S9 as Fig 4? Or alternatively, only include the 8 labelled factors in the simplified figure.

      In line with this feedback and that of Review #1 and #3, we have removed Figure 4 as a main-text figure and instead include this figure as Supplementary Figure S11. We have reversed the color scheme so that purple indicates one and white indicates zero. We also now label all factors. Previously we had only listed the default features of FMUG. We also now updated the figure legend to convey how it assisted the choice of default factors in FMUG. It reads:

      “Bold indicates FMUG ‘s default factors, which we selected based on this clustering and based on their strength of association with gene selection (Figure 3, Table S2 and Table S3)”.

      • The FMUG app is fantastic and sounds exactly like something that is required to boost the visibility of understudied genes and overcome the understudied gene bias. However, I did not understand the choice of reporting this in the Discussion section.

      We thank the reviewer for their enthusiasm, and have now moved FMUG into the results section.

      • To further increase usability of the FMUG app, is there a way it could be deployed online? I appreciate this could require a major amount of coding work, which would not be reasonable to demand. So please consider this a suggestion, potentially for a future implementation.

      We presently regretfully do not have the resources to create or maintain a web-based version. We hope that the publication of this manuscript will enable us to attract resources to create and maintain a web-based version.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Table s2 and s3: p values are indicated by star signs. However, with so many hypothesis tests, the p values should be corrected for multiple tests.

      We have now applied Benjamini-Hochberg multiple hypothesis correction to these tables, correcting p-values within each of the four technologies. We update our significance calling to read:

      “We identified 45 factors that relate to genes and found 33 (12 out of 23 binary factors and 21 out of 22 continuous factors) associated with selection in at least one assay type at Benjamini-Hochberg FDR < 0.001.”

      Figure S1 - S4

      These figures contain too many noninformative boxes. In all the figures, only the last three boxes are informative (reports assessed for eligibility, reports excluded, and studies included in review). The rest boxes convey little information and should be simplified.

      We have simplified these diagrams, removing boxes which contained no information.

      Figure S6: what does it mean by "prior to the publication of the first article represented in this sample"? What is "this sample"?

      “This sample” refers to the collection of 450 GWAS articles, 296 articles using AP-MS, 148 transcriptomics articles, and 15 genome-wide CRISPR screen articles. We have rephrased this sentence to make this clear. It now reads:

      “Variant of Figure 1B only considering articles published in 2002 or before, prior to the publication of any of the articles featuring -omics experiments which we considered for this analysis.”

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      eLife Assessment

      This neuroimaging and electrophysiology study in a small cohort of congenital cataract patients with sight recovery aims to characterize the effects of early visual deprivation on excitatory and inhibitory balance in visual cortex. While contrasting sight-recovery with visually intact controls suggested the existence of persistent alterations in Glx/GABA ratio and aperiodic EEG signals, it provided only incomplete evidence supporting claims about the effects of early deprivation itself. The reported data were considered valuable, given the rare study population. However, the small sample sizes, lack of a specific control cohort and multiple methodological limitations will likely restrict usefulness to scientists working in this particular subfield.

      We thank the reviewing editors for their consideration and updated assessment of our manuscript after its first revision.

      In order to assess the effects of early deprivation, we included an age-matched, normally sighted control group recruited from the same community, measured in the same scanner and laboratory. This study design is analogous to numerous studies in permanently congenitally blind humans, which typically recruited sighted controls, but hardly ever individuals with a different, e.g. late blindness history. In order to improve the specificity of our conclusions, we used a frontal cortex voxel in addition to a visual cortex voxel (MRS). Analogously, we separately analyzed occipital and frontal electrodes (EEG).

      Moreover, we relate our findings in congenital cataract reversal individuals to findings in the literature on permanent congenital blindness. Note, there are, to the best of our knowledge, neither MRS nor resting-state EEG studies in individuals with permanent late blindness.

      Our participants necessarily have nystagmus and low visual acuity due to their congenital deprivation phase, and the existence of nystagmus is a recruitment criterion to diagnose congenital cataracts.

      It might be interesting for future studies to investigate individuals with transient late blindness. However, such a study would be ill-motivated had we not found differences between the most “extreme” of congenital visual deprivation conditions and normally sighted individuals (analogous to why earlier research on permanent blindness investigated permanent congenitally blind humans first, rather than permanently late blind humans, or both in the same study). Any result of these future work would need the reference to our study, and neither results in these additional groups would invalidate our findings.

      Since all our congenital cataract reversal individuals by definition had visual impairments, we included an eyes closed condition, both in the MRS and EEG assessment. Any group effect during the eyes closed condition cannot be due to visual acuity deficits changing the bottom-up driven visual activation.

      As we detail in response to review 3, our EEG analyses followed the standards in the field.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer (1 (Public review):

      Summary

      In this human neuroimaging and electrophysiology study, the authors aimed to characterise effects of a period of visual deprivation in the sensitive period on excitatory and inhibitory balance in the visual cortex. They attempted to do so by comparing neurochemistry conditions ('eyes open', 'eyes closed') and resting state, and visually evoked EEG activity between ten congenital cataract patients with recovered sight (CC), and ten age-matched control participants (SC) with normal sight.

      First, they used magnetic resonance spectroscopy to measure in vivo neurochemistry from two locations, the primary location of interest in the visual cortex, and a control location in the frontal cortex. Such voxels are used to provide a control for the spatial specificity of any effects, because the single-voxel MRS method provides a single sampling location. Using MR-visible proxies of excitatory and inhibitory neurotransmission, Glx and GABA+ respectively, the authors report no group effects in GABA+ or Glx, no difference in the functional conditions 'eyes closed' and 'eyes open'. They found an effect of group in the ratio of Glx/GABA+ and no similar effect in the control voxel location. They then perform multiple exploratory correlations between MRS measures and visual acuity, and report a weak positive correlation between the 'eyes open' condition and visual acuity in CC participants.

      The same participants then took part in an EEG experiment. The authors selected two electrodes placed in the visual cortex for analysis and report a group difference in an EEG index of neural activity, the aperiodic intercept, as well as the aperiodic slope, considered a proxy for cortical inhibition. Control electrodes in the frontal region did not present with the same pattern. They report an exploratory correlation between the aperiodic intercept and Glx in one out of three EEG conditions.

      The authors report the difference in E/I ratio, and interpret the lower E/I ratio as representing an adaptation to visual deprivation, which would have initially caused a higher E/I ratio. Although intriguing, the strength of evidence in support of this view is not strong. Amongst the limitations are the low sample size, a critical control cohort that could provide evidence for higher E/I ratio in CC patients without recovered sight for example, and lower data quality in the control voxel. Nevertheless, the study provides a rare and valuable insight into experience-dependent plasticity in the human brain.

      Strengths of study

      How sensitive period experience shapes the developing brain is an enduring and important question in neuroscience. This question has been particularly difficult to investigate in humans. The authors recruited a small number of sight-recovered participants with bilateral congenital cataracts to investigate the effect of sensitive period deprivation on the balance of excitation and inhibition in the visual brain using measures of brain chemistry and brain electrophysiology. The research is novel, and the paper was interesting and well written.

      Limitations

      Low sample size. Ten for CC and ten for SC, and further two SC participants were rejected due to lack of frontal control voxel data. The sample size limits the statistical power of the dataset and increases the likelihood of effect inflation.

      In the updated manuscript, the authors have provided justification for their sample size by pointing to prior studies and the inherent difficulties in recruiting individuals with bilateral congenital cataracts. Importantly, this highlights the value the study brings to the field while also acknowledging the need to replicate the effects in a larger cohort.

      Lack of specific control cohort. The control cohort has normal vision. The control cohort is not specific enough to distinguish between people with sight loss due to different causes and patients with congenital cataracts with co-morbidities. Further data from a more specific populations, such as patients whose cataracts have not been removed, with developmental cataracts, or congenitally blind participants, would greatly improve the interpretability of the main finding. The lack of a more specific control cohort is a major caveat that limits a conclusive interpretation of the results.

      In the updated version, the authors have indicated that future studies can pursue comparisons between congenital cataract participants and cohorts with later sight loss.

      MRS data quality differences. Data quality in the control voxel appears worse than in the visual cortex voxel. The frontal cortex MRS spectrum shows far broader linewidth than the visual cortex (Supplementary Figures). Compared to the visual voxel, the frontal cortex voxel has less defined Glx and GABA+ peaks; lower GABA+ and Glx concentrations, lower NAA SNR values; lower NAA concentrations. If the data quality is a lot worse in the FC, then small effects may not be detectable.

      In the updated version, the authors have added more information that informs the reader of the MRS quality differences between voxel locations. This increases the transparency of their reporting and enhances the assessment of the results.

      Because of the direction of the difference in E/I, the authors interpret their findings as representing signatures of sight improvement after surgery without further evidence, either within the study or from the literature. However, the literature suggests that plasticity and visual deprivation drives the E/I index up rather than down. Decreasing GABA+ is thought to facilitate experience dependent remodelling. What evidence is there that cortical inhibition increases in response to a visual cortex that is over-sensitised to due congenital cataracts? Without further experimental or literature support this interpretation remains very speculative.

      The updated manuscript contains key reference from non-human work to justify their interpretation.

      Heterogeneity in patient group. Congenital cataract (CC) patients experienced a variety of duration of visual impairment and were of different ages. They presented with co-morbidities (absorbed lens, strabismus, nystagmus). Strabismus has been associated with abnormalities in GABAergic inhibition in the visual cortex. The possible interactions with residual vision and confounds of co-morbidities are not experimentally controlled for in the correlations, and not discussed.

      The updated document has addressed this caveat.

      Multiple exploratory correlations were performed to relate MRS measures to visual acuity (shown in Supplementary Materials), and only specific ones shown in the main document. The authors describe the analysis as exploratory in the 'Methods' section. Furthermore, the correlation between visual acuity and E/I metric is weak, not corrected for multiple comparisons. The results should be presented as preliminary, as no strong conclusions can be made from them. They can provide a hypothesis to test in a future study.

      This has now been done throughout the document and increases the transparency of the reporting.

      P.16 Given the correlation of the aperiodic intercept with age ("Age negatively correlated with the aperiodic intercept across CC and SC individuals, that is, a flattening of the intercept was observed with age"), age needs to be controlled for in the correlation between neurochemistry and the aperiodic intercept. Glx has also been shown to negatively correlates with age.

      This caveat has been addressed in the revised manuscript.

      Multiple exploratory correlations were performed to relate MRS to EEG measures (shown in Supplementary Materials), and only specific ones shown in the main document. Given the multiple measures from the MRS, the correlations with the EEG measures were exploratory, as stated in the text, p.16, and in Fig.4. yet the introduction said that there was a prior hypothesis "We further hypothesized that neurotransmitter changes would relate to changes in the slope and intercept of the EEG aperiodic activity in the same subjects." It would be great if the text could be revised for consistency and the analysis described as exploratory.

      This has been done throughout the document and increases the transparency of the reporting.

      The analysis for the EEG needs to take more advantage of the available data. As far as I understand, only two electrodes were used, yet far more were available as seen in their previous study (Ossandon et al., 2023). The spatial specificity is not established. The authors could use the frontal cortex electrode (FP1, FP2) signals as a control for spatial specificity in the group effects, or even better, all available electrodes and correct for multiple comparisons. Furthermore, they could use the aperiodic intercept vs Glx in SC to evaluate the specificity of the correlation to CC.

      This caveat has been addressed. The authors have added frontal electrodes to their analysis, providing an essential regional control for the visual cortex location.

      Comments on the latest version:

      The authors have made reasonable adjustments to their manuscript that addressed most of my comments by adding further justification for their methodology, essential literature support, pointing out exploratory analyses, limitations and adding key control analyses. Their revised manuscript has overall improved, providing valuable information, though the evidence that supports their claims is still incomplete.

      We thank the reviewer for suggesting ways to improve our manuscript and carefully reassessing our revised manuscript.

      Reviewer 2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The study examined 10 congenitally blind patients who recovered vision through the surgical removal of bilateral dense cataracts, measuring neural activity and neuro chemical profiles from the visual cortex. The declared aim is to test whether restoring visual function after years of complete blindness impacts excitation/inhibition balance in the visual cortex.

      Strengths:

      The findings are undoubtedly useful for the community, as they contribute towards characterising the many ways in which this special population differs from normally sighted individuals. The combination of MRS and EEG measures is a promising strategy to estimate a fundamental physiological parameter - the balance between excitation and inhibition in the visual cortex, which animal studies show to be heavily dependent upon early visual experience. Thus, the reported results pave the way for further studies, which may use a similar approach to evaluate more patients and control groups.

      Weaknesses:

      The main methodological limitation is the lack of an appropriate comparison group or condition to delineate the effect of sight recovery (as opposed to the effect of congenital blindness). Few previous studies suggested that Excitation/Inhibition ratio in the visual cortex is increased in congenitally blind patients; the present study reports that E/I ratio decreases instead. The authors claim that this implies a change of E/I ratio following sight recovery. However, supporting this claim would require showing a shift of E/I after vs. before the sight-recovery surgery, or at least it would require comparing patients who did and did not undergo the sight-recovery surgery (as common in the field).

      We thank the reviewer for suggesting ways to improve our manuscript and carefully reassessing our revised manuscript.

      Since we have not been able to acquire longitudinal data with the experimental design of the present study in congenital cataract reversal individuals, we compared the MRS and EEG results of congenital cataract reversal individuals  to published work in congenitally permanent blind individuals. We consider this as a resource saving approach. We think that the results of our cross-sectional study now justify the costs and enormous efforts (and time for the patients who often have to travel long distances) associated with longitudinal studies in this rare population.

      There are also more technical limitations related to the correlation analyses, which are partly acknowledged in the manuscript. A bland correlation between GLX/GABA and the visual impairment is reported, but this is specific to the patients group (N=10) and would not hold across groups (the correlation is positive, predicting the lowest GLX/GABA ratio values for the sighted controls - opposite of what is found). There is also a strong correlation between GLX concentrations and the EEG power at the lowest temporal frequencies. Although this relation is intriguing, it only holds for a very specific combination of parameters (of the many tested): only with eyes open, only in the patients group.

      Given the exploratory nature of the correlations, we do not base the majority of our conclusions on this analysis. There are no doubts that the reported correlations need replication; however, replication is only possible after a first report. Thus, we hope to motivate corresponding analyses in further studies.

      It has to be noted that in the present study significance testing for correlations were corrected for multiple comparisons, and that some findings replicate earlier reports (e.g. effects on EEG aperiodic slope, alpha power, and correlations with chronological age).

      Conclusions:

      The main claim of the study is that sight recovery impacts the excitation/inhibition balance in the visual cortex, estimated with MRS or through indirect EEG indices. However, due to the weaknesses outlined above, the study cannot distinguish the effects of sight recovery from those of visual deprivation. Moreover, many aspects of the results are interesting but their validation and interpretation require additional experimental work.

      We interpret the group differences between individuals tested years after congenital visual deprivation and normally sighted individuals as supportive of the E/I ratio being impacted by congenital visual deprivation. In the absence of a sensitive period for the development of an E/I ratio, individuals with a transient phase of congenital blindness might have developed a visual system indistinguishable  from normally sighted individuals. As we demonstrate, this is not so. Comparing the results of congenitally blind humans with those of congenitally permanently blind humans (from previous studies) allowed us to identify changes of E/I ratio, which add to those found for congenital blindness.  

      We thank the reviewer for the helpful comments and suggestions related to the first submission and first revision of our manuscript. We are keen to translate some of them into future studies.

      Reviewer 3 (Public review):

      This manuscript examines the impact of congenital visual deprivation on the excitatory/inhibitory (E/I) ratio in the visual cortex using Magnetic Resonance Spectroscopy (MRS) and electroencephalography (EEG) in individuals whose sight was restored. Ten individuals with reversed congenital cataracts were compared to age-matched, normally sighted controls, assessing the cortical E/I balance and its interrelationship and to visual acuity. The study reveals that the Glx/GABA ratio in the visual cortex and the intercept and aperiodic signal are significantly altered in those with a history of early visual deprivation, suggesting persistent neurophysiological changes despite visual restoration.

      First of all, I would like to disclose that I am not an expert in congenital visual deprivation, nor in MRS. My expertise is in EEG (particularly in the decomposition of periodic and aperiodic activity) and statistical methods.

      Although the authors addressed some of the concerns of the previous version, major concerns and flaws remain in terms of methodological and statistical approaches along with the (over)interpretation of the results. Specific concerns include:

      (1 3.1 Response to Variability in Visual Deprivation<br /> Rather than listing the advantages and disadvantages of visual deprivation, I recommend providing at least a descriptive analysis of how the duration of visual deprivation influenced the measures of interest. This would enhance the depth and relevance of the discussion.

      Although Review 2 and Review 3 (see below) pointed out problems in interpreting multiple correlational analyses in small samples, we addressed this request by reporting such correlations between visual deprivation history and measured EEG/MRS outcomes.

      Calculating the correlation between duration of visual deprivation and behavioral or brain measures is, in fact, a common suggestion. The existence of sensitive periods, which are typically assumed to not follow a linear gradual decline of neuroplasticity, does not necessary allow predicting a correlation with duration of blindness. Daphne Maurer has additionally worked on the concept of “sleeper effects” (Maurer et al., 2007), that is, effects on the brain and behavior by early deprivation which are observed only later in life when the function/neural circuits matures.

      In accordance with this reasoning, we did not observe a significant correlation between duration of visual deprivation and any of our dependent variables.

      (2 3.2) Small Sample Size

      The issue of small sample size remains problematic. The justification that previous studies employed similar sample sizes does not adequately address the limitation in the current study. I strongly suggest that the correlation analyses should not feature prominently in the main manuscript or the abstract, especially if the discussion does not substantially rely on these correlations. Please also revisit the recommendations made in the section on statistical concerns.

      In the revised manuscript, we explicitly mention that our sample size is not atypical for the special group investigated, but that a replication of our results in larger samples would foster their impact. We only explicitly mention correlations that survived stringent testing for multiple comparisons in the main manuscript.

      Given the exploratory nature of the correlations, we have not based the majority of our claims on this analysis.

      (3 3.3) Statistical Concerns

      While I appreciate the effort of conducting an independent statistical check, it merely validates whether the reported statistical parameters, degrees of freedom (df), and p-values are consistent. However, this does not address the appropriateness of the chosen statistical methods.

      We did not intend for the statcheck report to justify the methods used for statistics, which we have done in a separate section with normality and homogeneity testing (Supplementary Material S9), and references to it in the descriptions of the statistical analyses (Methods, Page 13, Lines 326-329 and Page 15, Lines 400-402).

      Several points require clarification or improvement:

      (4) Correlation Methods: The manuscript does not specify whether the reported correlation analyses are based on Pearson or Spearman correlation.

      The depicted correlations are Pearson correlations. We will add this information to the Methods.

      (5) Confidence Intervals: Include confidence intervals for correlations to represent the uncertainty associated with these estimates.

      We will add the confidence intervals to the second revision of our manuscript.

      (6) Permutation Statistics: Given the small sample size, I recommend using permutation statistics, as these are exact tests and more appropriate for small datasets.

      Our study focuses on a rare population, with a sample size limited by the availability of participants. Our findings provide exploratory insights rather than make strong inferential claims. To this end, we have ensured that our analysis adheres to key statistical assumptions (Shapiro-Wilk as well as Levene’s tests, Supplementary Material S9),and reported our findings with effect sizes, appropriate caution and context.

      (7) Adjusted P-Values: Ensure that reported Bonferroni corrected p-values (e.g., p > 0.999) are clearly labeled as adjusted p-values where applicable.

      In the revised manuscript, we will change Figure 4 to say ‘adjusted p,’  which we indeed reported.

      (8) Figure 2C

      Figure 2C still lacks crucial information that the correlation between Glx/GABA ratio and visual acuity was computed solely in the control group (as described in the rebuttal letter). Why was this analysis restricted to the control group? Please provide a rationale.

      Figure 2C depicts the correlation between Glx/GABA+ ratio and visual acuity in the congenital cataract reversal group, not the control group. This is mentioned in the Figure 2 legend, as well as in the main text where the figure is referred to (Page 18, Line 475).

      The correlation analyses between visual acuity and MRS/EEG measures were only performed in the congenital cataract reversal group since the sighed control group comprised of individuals with vision in the normal range; thus this analyses would not make sense. Table 1 with the individual visual acuities for all participants, including the normally sighted controls, shows the low variance in the latter group.  

      For variables in which no apiori group differences in variance were predicted, we performed the correlation analyses across groups (see Supplementary Material S12, S15).

      We will highlight these motivations more clearly in the Methods of the revised manuscript.

      (9 3.4) Interpretation of Aperiodic Signal

      Relying on previous studies to interpret the aperiodic slope as a proxy for excitation/inhibition (E/I) does not make the interpretation more robust.

      How to interpret aperiodic EEG activity has been subject of extensive investigation. We cite studies which provide evidence from multiple species (monkeys, humans) and measurements (EEG, MEG, ECoG), including studies which pharmacologically manipulated E/I balance.

      Whether our findings are robust, in fact, requires a replication study. Importantly, we analyzed the intercept of the aperiodic activity fit as well, and discuss results related to the intercept.

      Quote:

      “3.4 Interpretation of aperiodic signal:

      - Several recent papers demonstrated that the aperiodic signal measured in EEG or ECoG is related to various important aspects such as age, skull thickness, electrode impedance, as well as cognition. Thus, currently, very little is known about the underlying effects which influence the aperiodic intercept and slope. The entire interpretation of the aperiodic slope as a proxy for E/I is based on a computational model and simulation (as described in the Gao et al. paper).

      Response: Apart from the modeling work from Gao et al., multiple papers which have also been cited which used ECoG, EEG and MEG and showed concomitant changes in aperiodic activity with pharmacological manipulation of the E/I ratio (Colombo et al., 2019; Molina et al., 2020; Muthukumaraswamy & Liley, 2018). Further, several prior studies have interpreted changes in the aperiodic slope as reflective of changes in the E/I ratio, including studies of developmental groups (Favaro et al., 2023; Hill et al., 2022; McSweeney et al., 2023; Schaworonkow & Voytek, 2021) as well as patient groups (Molina et al., 2020; Ostlund et al., 2021).

      - The authors further wrote: We used the slope of the aperiodic (1/f) component of the EEG spectrum as an estimate of E/I ratio (Gao et al., 2017; Medel et al., 2020; Muthukumaraswamy & Liley, 2018). This is a highly speculative interpretation with very little empirical evidence. These papers were conducted with ECoG data (mostly in animals) and mostly under anesthesia. Thus, these studies only allow an indirect interpretation by what the 1/f slope in EEG measurements is actually influenced.

      Response: Note that Muthukumaraswamy et al. (2018) used different types of pharmacological manipulations and analyzed periodic and aperiodic MEG activity in humans, in addition to monkey ECoG (Muthukumaraswamy & Liley, 2018). Further, Medel et al. (now published as Medel et al., 2023) compared EEG activity in addition to ECoG data after propofol administration. The interpretation of our results are in line with a number of recent studies in developing (Hill et al., 2022; Schaworonkow & Voytek, 2021) and special populations using EEG. As mentioned above, several prior studies have used the slope of the 1/f component/aperiodic activity as an indirect measure of the E/I ratio (Favaro et al., 2023; Hill et al., 2022; McSweeney et al., 2023; Molina et al., 2020; Ostlund et al., 2021; Schaworonkow & Voytek, 2021), including studies using scalp-recorded EEG from humans.

      In the introduction of the revised manuscript, we have made more explicit that this metric is indirect (Page 3, Line 91), (additionally see Discussion, Page 24, Lines 644-645, Page 25, Lines 650-657).

      While a full understanding of aperiodic activity needs to be provided, some convergent ideas have emerged. We think that our results contribute to this enterprise, since our study is, to the best of our knowledge, the first which assessed MRS measured neurotransmitter levels and EEG aperiodic activity.“

      (10) Additionally, the authors state:

      "We cannot think of how any of the exploratory correlations between neurophysiological measures and MRS measures could be accounted for by a difference e.g. in skull thickness."

      (11) This could be addressed directly by including skull thickness as a covariate or visualizing it in scatterplots, for instance, by representing skull thickness as the size of the dots.

      We are not aware of any study that would justify such an analysis.

      Our analyses were based on previous findings in the literature.

      Since to the best of our knowledge, no evidence exists that congenital cataracts go together with changes in skull thickness, and that skull thickness might selectively modulate visual cortex Glx/GABA+ but not NAA measures, we decided against following this suggestion.

      Notably, the neurotransmitter concentration reported here is after tissue segmentation of the voxel region. The tissue fraction was shown to not differ between groups in the MRS voxels (Supplementary Material S4). The EEG electrode impedance was lowered to <10 kOhm in every participant (Methods, Page 13, Line 344), and preparation was identical across groups.

      (12 3.5) Problems with EEG Preprocessing and Analysis

      Downsampling: The decision to downsample the data to 60 Hz "to match the stimulation rate" is problematic. This choice conflates subsequent spectral analyses due to aliasing issues, as explained by the Nyquist theorem. While the authors cite prior studies (Schwenk et al., 2020; VanRullen & MacDonald, 2012) to justify this decision, these studies focused on alpha (8-12 Hz), where aliasing is less of a concern compared of analyzing aperiodic signal. Furthermore, in contrast, the current study analyzes the frequency range from 1-20 Hz, which is too narrow for interpreting the aperiodic signal as E/I. Typically, this analysis should include higher frequencies, spanning at least 1-30 Hz or even 1-45 Hz (not 20-40 Hz).

      As mentioned in the Methods (Page 15 Line 376) and the previous response, the pop_resample function used by EEGLAB applies an anti-aliasing filter, at half the resampling frequency (as per the Nyquist theorem https://eeglab.org/tutorials/05_Preprocess/resampling.html). The upper cut off of the low pass filter set by EEGlab prior to down sampling (30 Hz) is still far above the frequency of interest in the current study  (1-20 Hz), thus allowing us to derive valid results.

      Quote:

      “- The authors downsampled the data to 60Hz to "to match the stimulation rate". What is the intention of this? Because the subsequent spectral analyses are conflated by this choice (see Nyquist theorem).

      Response: This data were collected as part of a study designed to evoke alpha activity with visual white-noise, which ranged in luminance with equal power at all frequencies from 1-60 Hz, restricted by the refresh rate of the monitor on which stimuli were presented (Pant et al., 2023). This paradigm and method was developed by VanRullen and colleagues (Schwenk et al., 2020; Vanrullen & MacDonald, 2012), wherein the analysis requires the same sampling rate between the presented frequencies and the EEG data. The downsampling function used here automatically applies an anti-aliasing filter (EEGLAB 2019) .”

      Moreover, the resting-state data were not resampled to 60 Hz. We will make this clearer in the Methods of the revised manuscript.

      Our consistent results of group differences across all three  EEG conditions, thus, exclude any possibility that they were driven by aliasing artifacts.

      The expected effects of this anti-aliasing filter can be seen in the attached Figure R1, showing an example participant’s spectrum in the 1-30 Hz range (as opposed to the 1-20 Hz plotted in the manuscript), clearly showing a 30-40 dB drop at 30 Hz. Any aliasing due to, for example, remaining line noise, would additionally be visible in this figure (as well as Figure 3) as a peak.

      Author response image 1.

      Power spectral density of one congenital cataract-reversal (CC) participant in the visual stimulation condition across all channels. The reduced power at 30 Hz shows the effects of the anti-aliasing filter applied by EEGLAB’s pop_resample function.

      As we stated in the manuscript, and in previous reviews, so far there has been no consensus on the exact range of measuring aperiodic activity. We made a principled decision based on the literature (showing a knee in aperiodic fits of this dataset at 20 Hz) (Medel et al., 2023; Ossandón et al., 2023), data quality (possible contamination by line noise at higher frequencies) and the purpose of the visual stimulation experiment (to look at the lower frequency range by stimulating up to 60 Hz, thereby limiting us to quantifying below 30 Hz), that 1-20 Hz would be the fit range in this dataset.

      Quote:

      “(3) What's the underlying idea of analyzing two separate aperiodic slopes (20-40Hz and 1-19Hz). This is very unusual to compute the slope between 20-40 Hz, where the SNR is rather low.

      "Ossandón et al. (2023), however, observed that in addition to the flatter slope of the aperiodic power spectrum in the high frequency range (20-40 Hz), the slope of the low frequency range (1-19 Hz) was steeper in both, congenital cataract-reversal individuals, as well as in permanently congenitally blind humans."

      Response: The present manuscript computed the slope between 1-20 Hz. Ossandón et al. as well as Medel et al. (2023) found a “knee” of the 1/f distribution at 20 Hz and describe further the motivations for computing both slope ranges. For example, Ossandón et al. used a data driven approach and compared single vs. dual fits and found that the latter fitted the data better. Additionally, they found the best fit if a knee at 20 Hz was used. We would like to point out that no standard range exists for the fitting of the 1/f component across the literature and, in fact, very different ranges have been used (Gao et al., 2017; Medel et al., 2023; Muthukumaraswamy & Liley, 2018).“

      (13) Baseline Removal: Subtracting the mean activity across an epoch as a baseline removal step is inappropriate for resting-state EEG data. This preprocessing step undermines the validity of the analysis. The EEG dataset has fundamental flaws, many of which were pointed out in the previous review round but remain unaddressed. In its current form, the manuscript falls short of standards for robust EEG analysis. If I were reviewing for another journal, I would recommend rejection based on these flaws.

      The baseline removal step from each epoch serves to remove the DC component of the recording and detrend the data. This is a standard preprocessing step (included as an option in preprocessing pipelines recommended by the EEGLAB toolbox, FieldTrip toolbox and MNE toolbox), additionally necessary to improve the efficacy of ICA decomposition (Groppe et al., 2009).

      In the previous review round, a clarification of the baseline timing was requested, which we added. Beyond this request, there was no mention of the appropriateness of the baseline removal and/or a request to provide reasons for why it might not undermine the validity of the analysis.

      Quote:

      “- "Subsequently, baseline removal was conducted by subtracting the mean activity across the length of an epoch from every data point." The actual baseline time segment should be specified.

      Response: The time segment was the length of the epoch, that is, 1 second for the resting state conditions and 6.25 seconds for the visual stimulation conditions. This has been explicitly stated in the revised manuscript (Page 13, Line 354).”

      Prior work in the time (not frequency) domain on event-related potential (ERP) analysis has suggested that the baselining step might cause spurious effects (Delorme, 2023) (although see (Tanner et al., 2016)). We did not perform ERP analysis at any stage. One recent study suggests spurious group differences in the 1/f signal might be driven by an inappropriate dB division baselining method (Gyurkovics et al., 2021), which we did not perform.

      Any effect of our baselining procedure on the FFT spectrum would be below the 1 Hz range, which we did not analyze.  

      Each of the preprocessing steps in the manuscript match pipelines described and published in extensive prior work. We document how multiple aspects of our EEG results replicate prior findings (Supplementary Material S15, S18, S19), reports of other experimenters, groups and locations, validating that our results are robust.

      We therefore reject the claim of methodological flaws in our EEG analyses in the strongest possible terms.

      Quote:

      “3.5 Problems with EEG preprocessing and analysis:

      - It seems that the authors did not identify bad channels nor address the line noise issue (even a problem if a low pass filter of below-the-line noise was applied).

      Response: As pointed out in the methods and Figure 1, we only analyzed data from two occipital channels, O1 and O2 neither of which were rejected for any participant. Channel rejection was performed for the larger dataset, published elsewhere (Ossandón et al., 2023; Pant et al., 2023). As control sites we added the frontal channels FP1 and Fp2 (see Supplementary Material S14)

      Neither Ossandón et al. (2023) nor Pant et al. (2023) considered frequency ranges above 40 Hz to avoid any possible contamination with line noise. Here, we focused on activity between 0 and 20 Hz, definitely excluding line noise contaminations (Methods, Page 14, Lines 365-367). The low pass filter (FIR, 1-45 Hz) guaranteed that any spill-over effects of line noise would be restricted to frequencies just below the upper cutoff frequency.

      Additionally, a prior version of the analysis used spectrum interpolation to remove line noise; the group differences remained stable (Ossandón et al., 2023). We have reported this analysis in the revised manuscript (Page 14, Lines 364-357).

      Further, both groups were measured in the same lab, making line noise (~ 50 Hz) as an account for the observed group effects in the 1-20 Hz frequency range highly unlikely. Finally, any of the exploratory MRS-EEG correlations would be hard to explain if the EEG parameters would be contaminated with line noise.

      - What was the percentage of segments that needed to be rejected due to the 120μV criteria? This should be reported specifically for EO & EC and controls and patients.

      Response: The mean percentage of 1 second segments rejected for each resting state condition and the percentage of 6.25 long segments rejected in each group for the visual stimulation condition have been added to the revised manuscript (Supplementary Material S10), and referred to in the Methods on Page 14, Lines 372-373).

      - The authors downsampled the data to 60Hz to "to match the stimulation rate". What is the intention of this? Because the subsequent spectral analyses are conflated by this choice (see Nyquist theorem).

      Response: This data were collected as part of a study designed to evoke alpha activity with visual white-noise, which changed in luminance with equal power at all frequencies from 1-60 Hz, restricted by the refresh rate of the monitor on which stimuli were presented (Pant et al., 2023). This paradigm and method was developed by VanRullen and colleagues (Schwenk et al., 2020; VanRullen & MacDonald, 2012), wherein the analysis requires the same sampling rate between the presented frequencies and the EEG data. The downsampling function used here automatically applies an anti-aliasing filter (EEGLAB 2019) .

      - "Subsequently, baseline removal was conducted by subtracting the mean activity across the length of an epoch from every data point." The actual baseline time segment should be specified.

      The time segment was the length of the epoch, that is, 1 second for the resting state conditions and 6.25 seconds for the visual stimulation conditions. This has now been explicitly stated in the revised manuscript (Page 14, Lines 379-380).<br /> - "We excluded the alpha range (8-14 Hz) for this fit to avoid biasing the results due to documented differences in alpha activity between CC and SC individuals (Bottari et al., 2016; Ossandón et al., 2023; Pant et al., 2023)." This does not really make sense, as the FOOOF algorithm first fits the 1/f slope, for which the alpha activity is not relevant.

      Response: We did not use the FOOOF algorithm/toolbox in this manuscript. As stated in the Methods, we used a 1/f fit to the 1-20 Hz spectrum in the log-log space, and subtracted this fit from the original spectrum to obtain the corrected spectrum. Given the pronounced difference in alpha power between groups (Bottari et al., 2016; Ossandón et al., 2023; Pant et al., 2023), we were concerned it might drive differences in the exponent values. Our analysis pipeline had been adapted from previous publications of our group and other labs (Ossandón et al., 2023; Voytek et al., 2015; Waschke et al., 2017).

      We have conducted the analysis with and without the exclusion of the alpha range, as well as using the FOOOF toolbox both in the 1-20 Hz and 20-40 Hz ranges (Ossandón et al., 2023). The findings of a steeper slope in the 1-20 Hz range as well as lower alpha power in CC vs SC individuals remained stable. In Ossandón et al., the comparison between the piecewise fits and FOOOF fits led the authors to use the former, as it outperformed the FOOOF algorithm for their data.

      - The model fits of the 1/f fitting for EO, EC, and both participant groups should be reported.

      Response: In Figure 3 of the manuscript, we depicted the mean spectra and 1/f fits for each group.

      In the revised manuscript, we added the fit quality metrics (average R<sup>2</sup> values > 0.91 for each group and condition) (Methods Page 15, Lines 395-396; Supplementary Material S11) and additionally show individual subjects’ fits (Supplementary Material S11).“

      (14) The authors mention:

      "The EEG data sets reported here were part of data published earlier (Ossandón et al., 2023; Pant et al., 2023)." Thus, the statement "The group differences for the EEG assessments corresponded to those of a larger sample of CC individuals (n=38) " is a circular argument and should be avoided."

      The authors addressed this comment and adjusted the statement. However, I do not understand, why not the full sample published earlier (Ossandón et al., 2023) was used in the current study?

      The recording of EEG resting state data stated in 2013, while MRS testing could only be set up by the end of 2019. Moreover, not all subjects who qualify for EEG recording qualify for being scanned (e.g. due to MRI safety, claustrophobia)

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      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment

      This potentially useful study involves neuro-imaging and electrophysiology in a small cohort of congenital cataract patients after sight recovery and age-matched control participants with normal sight. It aims to characterize the effects of early visual deprivation on excitatory and inhibitory balance in the visual cortex. While the findings are taken to suggest the existence of persistent alterations in Glx/GABA ratio and aperiodic EEG signals, the evidence supporting these claims is incomplete. Specifically, small sample sizes, lack of a specific control cohort, and other methodological limitations will likely restrict the usefulness of the work, with relevance limited to scientists working in this particular subfield.

      As pointed out in the public reviews, there are very few human models which allow for assessing the role of early experience on neural circuit development. While the prevalent research in permanent congenital blindness reveals the response and adaptation of the developing brain to an atypical situation (blindness), research in sight restoration addresses the question of whether and how atypical development can be remediated if typical experience (vision) is restored. The literature on the role of visual experience in the development of E/I balance in humans, assessed via Magnetic Resonance Spectroscopy (MRS), has been limited to a few studies on congenital permanent blindness. Thus, we assessed sight recovery individuals with a history of congenital blindness, as limited evidence from other researchers indicated that the visual cortex E/I ratio might differ compared to normally sighted controls.

      Individuals with total bilateral congenital cataracts who remained untreated until later in life are extremely rare, particularly if only carefully diagnosed patients are included in a study sample. A sample size of 10 patients is, at the very least, typical of past studies in this population, even for exclusively behavioral assessments. In the present study, in addition to behavioral assessment as an indirect measure of sensitive periods, we investigated participants with two neuroimaging methods (Magnetic Resonance Spectroscopy and electroencephalography) to directly assess the neural correlates of sensitive periods in humans. The electroencephalography data allowed us to link the results of our small sample to findings documented in large cohorts of both, sight recovery individuals and permanently congenitally blind individuals. As pointed out in a recent editorial recommending an “exploration-then-estimation procedure,” (“Consideration of Sample Size in Neuroscience Studies,” 2020), exploratory studies like ours provide crucial direction and specific hypotheses for future work.

      We included an age-matched sighted control group recruited from the same community, measured in the same scanner and laboratory, to assess whether early experience is necessary for a typical excitatory/inhibitory (E/I) ratio to emerge in adulthood. The present findings indicate that this is indeed the case. Based on these results, a possible question to answer in future work, with individuals who had developmental cataracts, is whether later visual deprivation causes similar effects. Note that even if visual deprivation at a later stage in life caused similar effects, the current results would not be invalidated; by contrast, they are essential to understand future work on late (permanent or transient) blindness.

      Thus, we think that the present manuscript has far reaching implications for our understanding of the conditions under which E/I balance, a crucial characteristic of brain functioning, emerges in humans.

      Finally, our manuscript is one of the first few studies that relate MRS neurotransmitter concentrations to parameters of EEG aperiodic activity. Since present research has been using aperiodic activity as a correlate of the E/I ratio, and partially of higher cognitive functions, we think that our manuscript additionally contributes to a better understanding of what might be measured with aperiodic neurophysiological activity.

      Public Reviews:<br /> Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this human neuroimaging and electrophysiology study, the authors aimed to characterize the effects of a period of visual deprivation in the sensitive period on excitatory and inhibitory balance in the visual cortex. They attempted to do so by comparing neurochemistry conditions ('eyes open', 'eyes closed') and resting state, and visually evoked EEG activity between ten congenital cataract patients with recovered sight (CC), and ten age-matched control participants (SC) with normal sight.

      First, they used magnetic resonance spectroscopy to measure in vivo neurochemistry from two locations, the primary location of interest in the visual cortex, and a control location in the frontal cortex. Such voxels are used to provide a control for the spatial specificity of any effects because the single-voxel MRS method provides a single sampling location. Using MR-visible proxies of excitatory and inhibitory neurotransmission, Glx and GABA+ respectively, the authors report no group effects in GABA+ or Glx, no difference in the functional conditions 'eyes closed' and 'eyes open'. They found an effect of the group in the ratio of Glx/GABA+ and no similar effect in the control voxel location. They then performed multiple exploratory correlations between MRS measures and visual acuity, and reported a weak positive correlation between the 'eyes open' condition and visual acuity in CC participants.

      The same participants then took part in an EEG experiment. The authors selected only two electrodes placed in the visual cortex for analysis and reported a group difference in an EEG index of neural activity, the aperiodic intercept, as well as the aperiodic slope, considered a proxy for cortical inhibition. They report an exploratory correlation between the aperiodic intercept and Glx in one out of three EEG conditions.

      The authors report the difference in E/I ratio, and interpret the lower E/I ratio as representing an adaptation to visual deprivation, which would have initially caused a higher E/I ratio. Although intriguing, the strength of evidence in support of this view is not strong. Amongst the limitations are the low sample size, a critical control cohort that could provide evidence for a higher E/I ratio in CC patients without recovered sight for example, and lower data quality in the control voxel.

      Strengths of study:

      How sensitive period experience shapes the developing brain is an enduring and important question in neuroscience. This question has been particularly difficult to investigate in humans. The authors recruited a small number of sight-recovered participants with bilateral congenital cataracts to investigate the effect of sensitive period deprivation on the balance of excitation and inhibition in the visual brain using measures of brain chemistry and brain electrophysiology. The research is novel, and the paper was interesting and well-written.

      Limitations:

      (1.1) Low sample size. Ten for CC and ten for SC, and a further two SC participants were rejected due to a lack of frontal control voxel data. The sample size limits the statistical power of the dataset and increases the likelihood of effect inflation.

      Applying strict criteria, we only included individuals who were born with no patterned vision in the CC group. The population of individuals who have remained untreated past infancy is small in India, despite a higher prevalence of childhood cataract than Germany. Indeed, from the original 11 CC and 11 SC participants tested, one participant each from the CC and SC group had to be rejected, as their data had been corrupted, resulting in 10 participants in each group.

      It was a challenge to recruit participants from this rare group with no history of neurological diagnosis/intake of neuromodulatory medications, who were able and willing to undergo both MRS and EEG. For this study, data collection took more than 2.5 years.

      We took care of the validity of our results with two measures; first, we assessed not just MRS, but additionally, EEG measures of E/I ratio. The latter allowed us to link results to a larger population of CC individuals, that is, we replicated the results of a larger group of 28 additional individuals (Ossandón et al., 2023) in our sub-group.

      Second, we included a control voxel. As predicted, all group effects were restricted to the occipital voxel.

      (1.2) Lack of specific control cohort. The control cohort has normal vision. The control cohort is not specific enough to distinguish between people with sight loss due to different causes and patients with congenital cataracts with co-morbidities. Further data from more specific populations, such as patients whose cataracts have not been removed, with developmental cataracts, or congenitally blind participants, would greatly improve the interpretability of the main finding. The lack of a more specific control cohort is a major caveat that limits a conclusive interpretation of the results.

      The existing work on visual deprivation and neurochemical changes, as assessed with MRS, has been limited to permanent congenital blindness. In fact, most of the studies on permanent blindness included only congenitally blind or early blind humans (Coullon et al., 2015; Weaver et al., 2013), or, in separate studies, only late-blind individuals (Bernabeu et al., 2009). Thus, accordingly, we started with the most “extreme” visual deprivation model, sight recovery after congenital blindness. If we had not observed any group difference compared to normally sighted controls, investigating other groups might have been trivial. Based on our results, subsequent studies in late blind individuals, and then individuals with developmental cataracts, can be planned with clear hypotheses.

      (1.3) MRS data quality differences. Data quality in the control voxel appears worse than in the visual cortex voxel. The frontal cortex MRS spectrum shows far broader linewidth than the visual cortex (Supplementary Figures). Compared to the visual voxel, the frontal cortex voxel has less defined Glx and GABA+ peaks; lower GABA+ and Glx concentrations, lower NAA SNR values; lower NAA concentrations. If the data quality is a lot worse in the FC, then small effects may not be detectable.

      Worse data quality in the frontal than the visual cortex has been repeatedly observed in the MRS literature, attributable to magnetic field distortions (Juchem & Graaf, 2017) resulting from the proximity of the region to the sinuses (recent example: (Rideaux et al., 2022)). Nevertheless, we chose the frontal control region rather than a parietal voxel, given the potential neurochemical changes in multisensory regions of the parietal cortex due to blindness. Such reorganization would be less likely in frontal areas associated with higher cognitive functions. Further, prior MRS studies of the visual cortex have used the frontal cortex as a control region as well (Pitchaimuthu et al., 2017; Rideaux et al., 2022). In the revised manuscript, we more explicitly inform the reader about this data quality difference between regions in the Methods (Pages 11-12, MRS Data Quality/Table 2) and Discussion (Page 25, Lines 644- 647).

      Importantly, while in the present study data quality differed between the frontal and visual cortex voxel, it did not differ between groups (Supplementary Material S6).  

      Further, we checked that the frontal cortex datasets for Glx and GABA+ concentrations were of sufficient quality: the fit error was below 8.31% in both groups (Supplementary Material S3). For reference, Mikkelsen et al. reported a mean GABA+ fit error of 6.24 +/- 1.95% from a posterior cingulate cortex voxel across 8 GE scanners, using the Gannet pipeline. No absolute cutoffs have been proposed for fit errors. However, MRS studies in special populations (I/E ratio assessed in narcolepsy (Gao et al., 2024), GABA concentration assessed in Autism Spectrum Disorder (Maier et al., 2022) have used frontal cortex data with a fit error of <10% to identify differences between cohorts (Gao et al., 2024; Pitchaimuthu et al., 2017). Based on the literature, MRS data from the frontal voxel of the present study would have been of sufficient quality to uncover group differences.

      In the revised manuscript, we added the recently published MRS quality assessment form to the supplementary materials (Supplementary Excel File S1). Additionally, we would like to allude to our apriori prediction of group differences for the visual cortex, but not for the frontal cortex voxel. Finally, EEG data quality did not differ between frontal and occipital electrodes; therefore, lower sensitivity of frontal measures cannot easily explain the lack of group differences for frontal measures.

      (1.4) Because of the direction of the difference in E/I, the authors interpret their findings as representing signatures of sight improvement after surgery without further evidence, either within the study or from the literature. However, the literature suggests that plasticity and visual deprivation drive the E/I index up rather than down. Decreasing GABA+ is thought to facilitate experience-dependent remodelling. What evidence is there that cortical inhibition increases in response to a visual cortex that is over-sensitised due to congenital cataracts? Without further experimental or literature support this interpretation remains very speculative.

      Indeed, higher inhibition was not predicted, which we attempt to reconcile in our discussion section. We base our discussion mainly on the non-human animal literature, which has shown evidence of homeostatic changes after prolonged visual deprivation in the adult brain (Barnes et al., 2015). It is also interesting to note that after monocular deprivation in adult humans, resting GABA+ levels decreased in the visual cortex (Lunghi et al., 2015). Assuming that after delayed sight restoration, adult neuroplasticity mechanisms must be employed, these studies would predict a “balancing” of the increased excitatory drive following sight restoration by a commensurate increase in inhibition (Keck et al., 2017). Additionally, the EEG results of the present study allowed for speculation regarding the underlying neural mechanisms of an altered E/I ratio. The aperiodic EEG activity suggested higher spontaneous spiking (increased intercept) and increased inhibition (steeper aperiodic slope between 1-20 Hz) in CC vs SC individuals (Ossandón et al., 2023).

      In the revised manuscript, we have more clearly indicated that these speculations are based primarily on non-human animal work, due to the lack of human studies on the subject (Page 23, Lines 609-613).

      (1.5) Heterogeneity in the patient group. Congenital cataract (CC) patients experienced a variety of duration of visual impairment and were of different ages. They presented with co-morbidities (absorbed lens, strabismus, nystagmus). Strabismus has been associated with abnormalities in GABAergic inhibition in the visual cortex. The possible interactions with residual vision and confounds of co-morbidities are not experimentally controlled for in the correlations, and not discussed.

      The goal of the present study was to assess whether we would observe changes in E/I ratio after restoring vision at all. We would not have included patients without nystagmus in the CC group of the present study, since it would have been unlikely that they experienced congenital patterned visual deprivation. Amongst diagnosticians, nystagmus or strabismus might not be considered genuine “comorbidities” that emerge in people with congenital cataracts. Rather, these are consequences of congenital visual deprivation, which we employed as diagnostic criteria. Similarly, absorbed lenses are clear signs that cataracts were congenital. As in other models of experience dependent brain development (e.g. the extant literature on congenital permanent blindness, including anophthalmic individuals (Coullon et al., 2015; Weaver et al., 2013), some uncertainty remains regarding whether the (remaining, in our case) abnormalities of the eye, or the blindness they caused, are the factors driving neural changes. In case of people with reversed congenital cataracts, at least the retina is considered to be intact, as they would otherwise not receive cataract removal surgery.

      However, we consider it unlikely that strabismus caused the group differences, because the present study shows group differences in the Glx/GABA+ ratio at rest, regardless of eye opening or eye closure, for which strabismus would have caused distinct effects. By contrast, the link between GABA concentration and, for example, interocular suppression in strabismus, have so far been documented during visual stimulation (Mukerji et al., 2022; Sengpiel et al., 2006), and differed in direction depending on the amblyopic vs. non-amblyopic eye. Further, one MRS study did not find group differences in GABA concentration between the visual cortices of 16 amblyopic individuals and sighted controls (Mukerji et al., 2022), supporting that the differences in Glx/GABA+ concentration which we observed were driven by congenital deprivation, and not amblyopia-associated visual acuity or eye movement differences. 

      In the revised manuscript, we discussed the inclusion criteria in more detail, and the aforementioned reasons why our data remains interpretable (Page 5, Lines 143 – 145, Lines 147-149). 

      (1.6) Multiple exploratory correlations were performed to relate MRS measures to visual acuity (shown in Supplementary Materials), and only specific ones were shown in the main document. The authors describe the analysis as exploratory in the 'Methods' section. Furthermore, the correlation between visual acuity and E/I metric is weak, and not corrected for multiple comparisons. The results should be presented as preliminary, as no strong conclusions can be made from them. They can provide a hypothesis to test in a future study.

      In the revised manuscript, we have clearly indicated that the exploratory correlation analyses are reported to put forth hypotheses for future studies (Page 4, Lines 118-128; Page 5, Lines 132-134; Page 25, Lines 644- 647).

      (1.7) P.16 Given the correlation of the aperiodic intercept with age ("Age negatively correlated with the aperiodic intercept across CC and SC individuals, that is, a flattening of the intercept was observed with age"), age needs to be controlled for in the correlation between neurochemistry and the aperiodic intercept. Glx has also been shown to negatively correlate with age.

      The correlation between chronological age and aperiodic intercept was observed across groups, but the correlation between Glx and the intercept of the aperiodic EEG activity was seen only in the CC group, even though the SC group was matched for age. Thus, such a correlation was very unlikely to be predominantly driven by an effect of chronological age.

      In the revised manuscript, we added the linear regressions with age as a covariate (Supplementary Material S16, referred to in the main Results, Page 21, Lines 534-537), demonstrating the significant relationship between aperiodic intercept and Glx concentration in the CC group. 

      (1.8) Multiple exploratory correlations were performed to relate MRS to EEG measures (shown in Supplementary Materials), and only specific ones were shown in the main document. Given the multiple measures from the MRS, the correlations with the EEG measures were exploratory, as stated in the text, p.16, and in Figure 4. Yet the introduction said that there was a prior hypothesis "We further hypothesized that neurotransmitter changes would relate to changes in the slope and intercept of the EEG aperiodic activity in the same subjects." It would be great if the text could be revised for consistency and the analysis described as exploratory.

      In the revised manuscript, we improved the phrasing (Page 5, Lines 130-132) and consistently reported the correlations as exploratory in the Methods and Discussion. We consider the correlation analyses as exploratory due to our sample size and the absence of prior work. However, we did hypothesize that both MRS and EEG markers would concurrently be altered in CC vs SC individuals.

      (1.9) The analysis for the EEG needs to take more advantage of the available data. As far as I understand, only two electrodes were used, yet far more were available as seen in their previous study (Ossandon et al., 2023). The spatial specificity is not established. The authors could use the frontal cortex electrode (FP1, FP2) signals as a control for spatial specificity in the group effects, or even better, all available electrodes and correct for multiple comparisons. Furthermore, they could use the aperiodic intercept vs Glx in SC to evaluate the specificity of the correlation to CC.

      The aperiodic intercept and slope did not differ between CC and SC individuals for Fp1 and Fp2, suggesting the spatial specificity of the results. In the revised manuscript, we added this analysis to the Supplementary Material (Supplementary Material S14) and referred to it in our Results (Page 20, Lines 513-514).

      Further, Glx concentration in the visual cortex did not correlate with the aperiodic intercept in the SC group (Figure 4), suggesting that this relationship was indeed specific to the CC group.

      The data from all electrodes has been analyzed and published in other studies as well (Pant et al., 2023; Ossandón et al., 2023). 

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript reports non-invasive measures of activity and neurochemical profiles of the visual cortex in congenitally blind patients who recovered vision through the surgical removal of bilateral dense cataracts. The declared aim of the study is to find out how restoring visual function after several months or years of complete blindness impacts the balance between excitation and inhibition in the visual cortex.

      Strengths:

      The findings are undoubtedly useful for the community, as they contribute towards characterising the many ways this special population differs from normally sighted individuals. The combination of MRS and EEG measures is a promising strategy to estimate a fundamental physiological parameter - the balance between excitation and inhibition in the visual cortex, which animal studies show to be heavily dependent upon early visual experience. Thus, the reported results pave the way for further studies, which may use a similar approach to evaluate more patients and control groups.

      Weaknesses:

      (2.1) The main issue is the lack of an appropriate comparison group or condition to delineate the effect of sight recovery (as opposed to the effect of congenital blindness). Few previous studies suggested an increased excitation/Inhibition ratio in the visual cortex of congenitally blind patients; the present study reports a decreased E/I ratio instead. The authors claim that this implies a change of E/I ratio following sight recovery. However, supporting this claim would require showing a shift of E/I after vs. before the sight-recovery surgery, or at least it would require comparing patients who did and did not undergo the sight-recovery surgery (as common in the field).

      Longitudinal studies would indeed be the best way to test the hypothesis that the lower E/I ratio in the CC group observed by the present study is a consequence of sight restoration.

      We have now explicitly stated this in the Limitations section (Page 25, Lines 654-655).

      However, longitudinal studies involving neuroimaging are an effortful challenge, particularly in research conducted outside of major developed countries and dedicated neuroimaging research facilities. Crucially, however, had CC and SC individuals, as well as permanently congenitally blind vs SC individuals (Coullon et al., 2015; Weaver et al., 2013), not differed on any neurochemical markers, such a longitudinal study might have been trivial. Thus, in order to justify and better tailor longitudinal studies, cross-sectional studies are an initial step.

      (2.2) MR Spectroscopy shows a reduced GLX/GABA ratio in patients vs. sighted controls; however, this finding remains rather isolated, not corroborated by other observations. The difference between patients and controls only emerges for the GLX/GABA ratio, but there is no accompanying difference in either the GLX or the GABA concentrations. There is an attempt to relate the MRS data with acuity measurements and electrophysiological indices, but the explorative correlational analyses do not help to build a coherent picture. A bland correlation between GLX/GABA and visual impairment is reported, but this is specific to the patients' group (N=10) and would not hold across groups (the correlation is positive, predicting the lowest GLX/GABA ratio values for the sighted controls - the opposite of what is found). There is also a strong correlation between GLX concentrations and the EEG power at the lowest temporal frequencies. Although this relation is intriguing, it only holds for a very specific combination of parameters (of the many tested): only with eyes open, only in the patient group.

      We interpret these findings differently, that is, in the context of experiments from non-human animals and the larger MRS literature (Page 23, Lines 609-611).

      Homeostatic control of E/I balance assumes that the ratio of excitation (reflected here by Glx) and inhibition (reflected here by GABA+) is regulated. Like prior work (Gao et al., 2024, 2024; Narayan et al., 2022; Perica et al., 2022; Steel et al., 2020; Takado et al., 2022; Takei et al., 2016), we assumed that the ratio of Glx/GABA+ is indicative of E/I balance rather than solely the individual neurotransmitter levels. One of the motivations for assessing the ratio vs the absolute concentration is that as per the underlying E/I balance hypothesis, a change in excitation would cause a concomitant change in inhibition, and vice versa, which has been shown in non-human animal work (Fang et al., 2021; Haider et al., 2006; Tao & Poo, 2005) and modeling research (Vreeswijk & Sompolinsky, 1996; Wu et al., 2022). Importantly, our interpretation of the lower E/I ratio is not just from the Glx/GABA+ ratio, but additionally, based on the steeper EEG aperiodic slope (1-20 Hz). 

      As stated in the Discussion section and Response 1.4, we did not expect to see a lower Glx/GABA+ ratio in CC individuals. We discuss the possible reasons for the direction of the correlation with visual acuity and aperiodic offset during passive visual stimulation, and offer interpretations and (testable) hypotheses.

      We interpret the direction of the Glx/GABA+ correlation with visual acuity to imply that patients with highest (compensatory) balancing of the consequences of congenital blindness (hyperexcitation), in light of visual stimulation, are those who recover best. Note, the sighted control group was selected based on their “normal” vision. Thus, clinical visual acuity measures are not expected to sufficiently vary, nor have the resolution to show strong correlations with neurophysiological measures. By contrast, the CC group comprised patients highly varying in visual outcomes, and thus were ideal to investigate such correlations.

      This holds for the correlation between Glx and the aperiodic intercept, as well. Previous work has suggested that the intercept of the aperiodic activity is associated with broadband spiking activity in neural circuits (Manning et al., 2009). Thus, an atypical increase of spiking activity during visual stimulation, as indirectly suggested by “old” non-human primate work on visual deprivation (Hyvärinen et al., 1981) might drive a correlation not observed in healthy populations.

      In the revised manuscript, we have more clearly indicated in the Discussion that these are possible post-hoc interpretations (Page 23, Lines 584-586; Page 24, Lines 609-620; Page 24, Lines 644-647; Pages 25, Lines 650 - 657). We argue that given the lack of such studies in humans, it is all the more important that extant data be presented completely, even if the direction of the effects are not as expected.

      (2.3) For these reasons, the reported findings do not allow us to draw firm conclusions on the relation between EEG parameters and E/I ratio or on the impact of early (vs. late) visual experience on the excitation/inhibition ratio of the human visual cortex.

      Indeed, the correlations we have tested between the E/I ratio and EEG parameters were exploratory, and have been reported as such.

      We have now made this clear in all the relevant parts of the manuscript (Introduction, Page 5, Lines 132-135; Methods, Page 16, Line 415; Results, Page 21, Figure 4; Discussion, Page 22, Line 568, Page 25, Lines 644-645, Page 25, Lines 650-657).

      The goal of our study was not to compare the effects of early vs. late visual experience. The goal was to study whether early visual experience is necessary for a typical E/I ratio in visual neural circuits. We provided clear evidence in favor of this hypothesis. Thus, the present results suggest the necessity of investigating the effects of late visual deprivation. In fact, such research is missing in permanent blindness as well.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      This manuscript examines the impact of congenital visual deprivation on the excitatory/inhibitory (E/I) ratio in the visual cortex using Magnetic Resonance Spectroscopy (MRS) and electroencephalography (EEG) in individuals whose sight was restored. Ten individuals with reversed congenital cataracts were compared to age-matched, normally sighted controls, assessing the cortical E/I balance and its interrelationship to visual acuity. The study reveals that the Glx/GABA ratio in the visual cortex and the intercept and aperiodic signal are significantly altered in those with a history of early visual deprivation, suggesting persistent neurophysiological changes despite visual restoration.

      My expertise is in EEG (particularly in the decomposition of periodic and aperiodic activity) and statistical methods. I have several major concerns in terms of methodological and statistical approaches along with the (over)interpretation of the results. These major concerns are detailed below.

      (3.1) Variability in visual deprivation:

      - The document states a large variability in the duration of visual deprivation (probably also the age at restoration), with significant implications for the sensitivity period's impact on visual circuit development. The variability and its potential effects on the outcomes need thorough exploration and discussion.

      We work with a rare, unique patient population, which makes it difficult to systematically assess the effects of different visual histories while maintaining stringent inclusion criteria such as complete patterned visual deprivation at birth. Regardless, we considered the large variance in age at surgery and time since surgery as supportive of our interpretation: group differences were found despite the large variance in duration of visual deprivation. Moreover, the existing variance was used to explore possible associations between behavior and neural measures, as well as neurochemical and EEG measures.

      In the revised manuscript, we have detailed the advantages (Methods, Page 5, Lines 143 – 145, Lines 147-149; Discussion, Page 26, Lines 677-678) and disadvantages (Discussion, Page 25, Lines 650-657) of our CC sample, with respect to duration of congenital visual deprivation.

      (3.2) Sample size:

      - The small sample size is a major concern as it may not provide sufficient power to detect subtle effects and/or overestimate significant effects, which then tend not to generalize to new data. One of the biggest drivers of the replication crisis in neuroscience.

      We address the small sample size in our Discussion, and make clear that small sample sizes were due to the nature of investigations in special populations. In the revised manuscript, we added the sample sizes of previous studies using MRS in permanently blind individuals (Page 4, Lines 108 - 109). It is worth noting that our EEG results fully align with those of larger samples of congenital cataract reversal individuals (Page 25, Lines 666-676, Supplementary Material S18, S19) (Ossandón et al., 2023), providing us confidence about their validity and reproducibility. Moreover, our MRS results and correlations of those with EEG parameters were spatially specific to occipital cortex measures.

      The main problem with the correlation analyses between MRS and EEG measures is that the sample size is simply too small to conduct such an analysis. Moreover, it is unclear from the methods section that this analysis was only conducted in the patient group (which the reviewer assumed from the plots), and not explained why this was done only in the patient group. I would highly recommend removing these correlation analyses.

      In the revised manuscript, we have more clearly marked the correlation analyses as exploratory (Introduction, Page 4, Lines 118-128 and Page 5, Lines 132-134; Methods Page 16, Line 415; Discussion Page 22, Line 568, Page 24, Lines 644-645, Page 25, Lines 650-657); note that we do not base most of our discussion on the results of these analyses.

      As indicated by Reviewer 1, reporting them allows for deriving more precise hypothesis for future studies. It has to be noted that we investigate an extremely rare population, tested outside of major developed economies and dedicated neuroimaging research facilities. In addition to being a rare patient group, these individuals come from poor communities. Therefore, we consider it justified to report these correlations as exploratory, providing direction for future research.

      (3.3) Statistical concerns:

      - The statistical analyses, particularly the correlations drawn from a small sample, may not provide reliable estimates (see https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092656613000858, which clearly describes this problem).

      It would undoubtedly be better to have a larger sample size. We nonetheless think it is of value to the research community to publish this dataset, since 10 multimodal data sets from a carefully diagnosed, rare population, representing a human model for the effects of early experience on brain development, are quite a lot. Sample sizes in prior neuroimaging studies in transient blindness have most often ranged from n = 1 to n = 10. They nevertheless provided valuable direction for future research, and integration of results across multiple studies provides scientific insights. 

      Identifying possible group differences was the goal of our study, with the correlations being an exploratory analysis, which we have clearly indicated in the methods, results and discussion.

      - Statistical analyses for the MRS: The authors should consider some additional permutation statistics, which are more suitable for small sample sizes. The current statistical model (2x2) design ANOVA is not ideal for such small sample sizes. Moreover, it is unclear why the condition (EO & EC) was chosen as a predictor and not the brain region (visual & frontal) or neurochemicals. Finally, the authors did not provide any information on the alpha level nor any information on correction for multiple comparisons (in the methods section). Finally, even if the groups are matched w.r.t. age, the time between surgery and measurement, the duration of visual deprivation, (and sex?), these should be included as covariates as it has been shown that these are highly related to the measurements of interest (especially for the EEG measurements) and the age range of the current study is large.

      In our ANOVA models, the neurochemicals were the outcome variables, and the conditions were chosen as predictors based on prior work suggesting that Glx/GABA+ might vary with eye closure (Kurcyus et al., 2018). The study was designed based on a hypothesis of group differences localized to the occipital cortex, due to visual deprivation. The frontal cortex voxel was chosen to indicate whether these differences were spatially specific. Therefore, we conducted separate ANOVAs based on this study design.

      We have now clarified the motivation for these conditions in the Introduction (Page 4, Lines 122-125) and the Methods (Page 9, Lines 219-224).

      In the revised manuscript, we added the rationale for parametric analyses for our outcomes (Shapiro-Wilk as well as Levene’s tests, Supplementary Material S9). Note that in the Supplementary Materials (S12, S14), we have reported the correlations between visual history metrics and MRS/EEG outcomes, thereby investigating whether the variance in visual history might have driven these results. Specifically, we found a (negative) correlation between visual cortex Glx/GABA+ concentration during eye closure and the visual acuity in the CC group (Figure 2c). None of the other exploratory correlations between MRS/EEG outcomes vs time since surgery, duration of blindness or visual acuity were significant in the CC group (Supplementary Material S12, S15).  

      The alpha level used for the ANOVA models specified in the Methods section was 0.05. The alpha level for the exploratory analyses reported in the main manuscript was 0.008, after correcting for (6) multiple comparisons using the Bonferroni correction, also specified in the Methods. Note that the p-values following correction are expressed as multiplied by 6, due to most readers assuming an alpha level of 0.05 (see response regarding large p-values).

      We used a control group matched for age, recruited and tested in the same institutes, using the same setup. We feel that we followed the gold standards for recruiting a healthy control group for a patient group.

      - EEG statistical analyses: The same critique as for the MRS statistical analyses applies to the EEG analysis. In addition: was the 2x3 ANOVA conducted for EO and EC independently? This seems to be inconsistent with the approach in the MRS analyses, in which the authors chose EO & EC as predictors in their 2x2 ANOVA.

      The 2x3 ANOVA was not conducted independently for the eyes open/eyes closed condition. The ANOVA conducted on the EEG metrics was 2x3 because it had two groups (CC, SC) and three conditions (eyes open (EO), eyes closed (EC) and visual stimulation (LU)) as predictors.

      - Figure 4: The authors report a p-value of >0.999 with a correlation coefficient of -0.42 with a sample size of 10 subjects. This can't be correct (it should be around: p = 0.22). All statistical analyses should be checked.

      As specified in the Methods and Figure legend, the reported p values in Figure 4 have been corrected using the Bonferroni correction, and therefore multiplied by the number of comparisons, leading to the seemingly large values.

      Additionally, to check all statistical analyses, we put the manuscript through an independent Statistics Check (Nuijten & Polanin, 2020) (https://michelenuijten.shinyapps.io/statcheck-web/) and have uploaded the consistency report with the revised Supplementary Material (Supplementary Report 1).

      - Figure 2c. Eyes closed condition: The highest score of the *Glx/GABA ratio seems to be ~3.6. In subplot 2a, there seem to be 3 subjects that show a Glx/GABA ratio score > 3.6. How can this be explained? There is also a discrepancy for the eyes-closed condition.

      The three subjects that show the Glx/GABA+ ratio > 3.6 in subplot 2a are in the SC group, whereas the correlations plotted in figure 2c are only for the CC group, where the highest score is indeed ~3.6.

      (3.4) Interpretation of aperiodic signal:

      - Several recent papers demonstrated that the aperiodic signal measured in EEG or ECoG is related to various important aspects such as age, skull thickness, electrode impedance, as well as cognition. Thus, currently, very little is known about the underlying effects which influence the aperiodic intercept and slope. The entire interpretation of the aperiodic slope as a proxy for E/I is based on a computational model and simulation (as described in the Gao et al. paper).

      Apart from the modeling work from Gao et al., multiple papers which have also been cited which used ECoG, EEG and MEG and showed concomitant changes in aperiodic activity with pharmacological manipulation of the E/I ratio (Colombo et al., 2019; Molina et al., 2020; Muthukumaraswamy & Liley, 2018). Further, several prior studies have interpreted changes in the aperiodic slope as reflective of changes in the E/I ratio, including studies of developmental groups (Favaro et al., 2023; Hill et al., 2022; McSweeney et al., 2023; Schaworonkow & Voytek, 2021) as well as patient groups (Molina et al., 2020; Ostlund et al., 2021).

      In the revised manuscript, we have cited those studies not already included in the Introduction (Page 3, Lines 92-94).

      - Especially the aperiodic intercept is a very sensitive measure to many influences (e.g. skull thickness, electrode impedance...). As crucial results (correlation aperiodic intercept and MRS measures) are facing this problem, this needs to be reevaluated. It is safer to make statements on the aperiodic slope than intercept. In theory, some of the potentially confounding measures are available to the authors (e.g. skull thickness can be computed from T1w images; electrode impedances are usually acquired alongside the EEG data) and could be therefore controlled.

      All electrophysiological measures indeed depend on parameters such as skull thickness and electrode impedance. As in the extant literature using neurophysiological measures to compare brain function between patient and control groups, we used a control group matched in age/sex, recruited in the same region, tested with the same devices, and analyzed with the same analysis pipeline. For example, impedance was kept below 10 kOhm for all subjects.

      This is now mentioned in the Methods, Page 13, Line 344.

      There is no evidence available suggesting that congenital cataracts are associated with changes in skull thickness that would cause the observed pattern of group results. Moreover, we cannot think of how any of the exploratory correlations between neurophysiological measures and MRS measures could be accounted for by a difference e.g. in skull thickness.

      - The authors wrote: "Higher frequencies (such as 20-40 Hz) have been predominantly associated with local circuit activity and feedforward signaling (Bastos et al., 2018; Van Kerkoerle et al., 2014); the increased 20-40 Hz slope may therefore signal increased spontaneous spiking activity in local networks. We speculate that the steeper slope of the aperiodic activity for the lower frequency range (1-20 Hz) in CC individuals reflects the concomitant increase in inhibition." The authors confuse the interpretation of periodic and aperiodic signals. This section refers to the interpretation of the periodic signal (higher frequencies). This interpretation cannot simply be translated to the aperiodic signal (slope).

      Prior work has not always separated the aperiodic and periodic components, making it unclear what might have driven these effects in our data. The interpretation of the higher frequency range was intended to contrast with the interpretations of lower frequency range, in order to speculate as to why the two aperiodic fits might go in differing directions. Note that Ossandón et al. reported highly similar results (group differences for CC individuals and for permanently congenitally blind humans) for the aperiodic activity between 20-40 Hz and oscillatory activity in the gamma range.

      In the revised Discussion, we removed this section. We primarily interpret the increased offset and prior findings from fMRI-BOLD data (Raczy et al., 2023) as an increase in broadband neuronal firing.

      - The authors further wrote: We used the slope of the aperiodic (1/f) component of the EEG spectrum as an estimate of E/I ratio (Gao et al., 2017; Medel et al., 2020; Muthukumaraswamy & Liley, 2018). This is a highly speculative interpretation with very little empirical evidence. These papers were conducted with ECoG data (mostly in animals) and mostly under anesthesia. Thus, these studies only allow an indirect interpretation by what the 1/f slope in EEG measurements is actually influenced.

      Note that Muthukumaraswamy et al. (2018) used different types of pharmacological manipulations and analyzed periodic and aperiodic MEG activity in humans, in addition to monkey ECoG (Muthukumaraswamy & Liley, 2018). Further, Medel et al. (now published as Medel et al., 2023) compared EEG activity in addition to ECoG data after propofol administration. The interpretation of our results are in line with a number of recent studies in developing (Hill et al., 2022; Schaworonkow & Voytek, 2021) and special populations using EEG. As mentioned above, several prior studies have used the slope of the 1/f component/aperiodic activity as an indirect measure of the E/I ratio (Favaro et al., 2023; Hill et al., 2022; McSweeney et al., 2023; Molina et al., 2020; Ostlund et al., 2021; Schaworonkow & Voytek, 2021), including studies using scalp-recorded EEG from humans.

      In the introduction of the revised manuscript, we have made more explicit that this metric is indirect (Page 3, Line 91), (additionally see Discussion, Page 24, Lines 644-645, Page 25, Lines 650-657).

      While a full understanding of aperiodic activity needs to be provided, some convergent ideas have emerged. We think that our results contribute to this enterprise, since our study is, to the best of our knowledge, the first which assessed MRS measured neurotransmitter levels and EEG aperiodic activity.

      (3.5) Problems with EEG preprocessing and analysis:

      - It seems that the authors did not identify bad channels nor address the line noise issue (even a problem if a low pass filter of below-the-line noise was applied).

      As pointed out in the methods and Figure 1, we only analyzed data from two occipital channels, O1 and O2 neither of which were rejected for any participant. Channel rejection was performed for the larger dataset, published elsewhere (Ossandón et al., 2023; Pant et al., 2023). As control sites we added the frontal channels FP1 and Fp2 (see Supplementary Material S14)

      Neither Ossandón et al. (2023) nor Pant et al. (2023) considered frequency ranges above 40 Hz to avoid any possible contamination with line noise. Here, we focused on activity between 0 and 20 Hz, definitely excluding line noise contaminations (Methods, Page 14, Lines 365-367). The low pass filter (FIR, 1-45 Hz) guaranteed that any spill-over effects of line noise would be restricted to frequencies just below the upper cutoff frequency.

      Additionally, a prior version of the analysis used spectrum interpolation to remove line noise; the group differences remained stable (Ossandón et al., 2023). We have reported this analysis in the revised manuscript (Page 14, Lines 364-357).

      Further, both groups were measured in the same lab, making line noise (~ 50 Hz) as an account for the observed group effects in the 1-20 Hz frequency range highly unlikely. Finally, any of the exploratory MRS-EEG correlations would be hard to explain if the EEG parameters would be contaminated with line noise.

      - What was the percentage of segments that needed to be rejected due to the 120μV criteria? This should be reported specifically for EO & EC and controls and patients.

      The mean percentage of 1 second segments rejected for each resting state condition and the percentage of 6.25 long segments rejected in each group for the visual stimulation condition have been added to the revised manuscript (Supplementary Material S10), and referred to in the Methods on Page 14, Lines 372-373).

      - The authors downsampled the data to 60Hz to "to match the stimulation rate". What is the intention of this? Because the subsequent spectral analyses are conflated by this choice (see Nyquist theorem).

      This data were collected as part of a study designed to evoke alpha activity with visual white-noise, which changed in luminance with equal power at all frequencies from 1-60 Hz, restricted by the refresh rate of the monitor on which stimuli were presented (Pant et al., 2023). This paradigm and method was developed by VanRullen and colleagues (Schwenk et al., 2020; VanRullen & MacDonald, 2012), wherein the analysis requires the same sampling rate between the presented frequencies and the EEG data. The downsampling function used here automatically applies an anti-aliasing filter (EEGLAB 2019) .

      - "Subsequently, baseline removal was conducted by subtracting the mean activity across the length of an epoch from every data point." The actual baseline time segment should be specified.

      The time segment was the length of the epoch, that is, 1 second for the resting state conditions and 6.25 seconds for the visual stimulation conditions. This has now been explicitly stated in the revised manuscript (Page 14, Lines 379-380).

      - "We excluded the alpha range (8-14 Hz) for this fit to avoid biasing the results due to documented differences in alpha activity between CC and SC individuals (Bottari et al., 2016; Ossandón et al., 2023; Pant et al., 2023)." This does not really make sense, as the FOOOF algorithm first fits the 1/f slope, for which the alpha activity is not relevant.

      We did not use the FOOOF algorithm/toolbox in this manuscript. As stated in the Methods, we used a 1/f fit to the 1-20 Hz spectrum in the log-log space, and subtracted this fit from the original spectrum to obtain the corrected spectrum. Given the pronounced difference in alpha power between groups (Bottari et al., 2016; Ossandón et al., 2023; Pant et al., 2023), we were concerned it might drive differences in the exponent values. Our analysis pipeline had been adapted from previous publications of our group and other labs (Ossandón et al., 2023; Voytek et al., 2015; Waschke et al., 2017).

      We have conducted the analysis with and without the exclusion of the alpha range, as well as using the FOOOF toolbox both in the 1-20 Hz and 20-40 Hz ranges (Ossandón et al., 2023). The findings of a steeper slope in the 1-20 Hz range as well as lower alpha power in CC vs SC individuals remained stable. In Ossandón et al., the comparison between the piecewise fits and FOOOF fits led the authors to use the former, as it outperformed the FOOOF algorithm for their data.

      - The model fits of the 1/f fitting for EO, EC, and both participant groups should be reported.

      In Figure 3 of the manuscript, we depicted the mean spectra and 1/f fits for each group.

      In the revised manuscript, we added the fit quality metrics (average R<sup>2</sup> values > 0.91 for each group and condition) (Methods Page 15, Lines 395-396; Supplementary Material S11) and additionally show individual subjects’ fits (Supplementary Material S11).

      (3.6) Validity of GABA measurements and results:

      - According the a newer study by the authors of the Gannet toolbox (https://analyticalsciencejournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/nbm.5076), the reliability and reproducibility of the gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) measurement can vary significantly depending on acquisition and modeling parameter. Thus, did the author address these challenges?

      We took care of data quality while acquiring MRS data by ensuring appropriate voxel placement and linewidth prior to scanning (Page 9, Lines 229-237). We now address this explicitly in the Methods in the “MRS Data Quality” section. Acquisition as well as modeling parameters were constant for both groups, so they cannot have driven group differences.

      The linked article compares the reproducibility of GABA measurement using Osprey (Oeltzschner et al., 2020), which was released in 2020 and uses linear combination modeling to fit the peak, as opposed to Gannet’s simple peak fitting (Hupfeld et al., 2024). The study finds better test-retest reliability for Osprey compared to Gannet’s method.

      As the present work was conceptualized in 2018, we used Gannet 3.0, which was the state-of-the-art edited-spectrum analysis toolbox at the time, and still is widely used.

      In the revised manuscript, we re-analyzed the data using linear combination modeling with Osprey (Oeltzschner et al., 2020), and reported that the main findings remained the same, i.e. the Glx/GABA+ concentration ratio was lower in the visual cortex of congenital cataract reversal individuals compared to normally sighted controls, regardless of whether participants were scanned with eyes open or with eyes closed. Further, NAA concentration did not differ between groups (Supplementary Material S3). Thus, we demonstrate that our findings were robust to analysis pipelines, and state this in the Methods (Page 9, Lines 242-246) and Results (Page 19, Lines 464-467).

      - Furthermore, the authors wrote: "We confirmed the within-subject stability of metabolite quantification by testing a subset of the sighted controls (n=6) 2-4 weeks apart. Looking at the supplementary Figure 5 (which would be rather plotted as ICC or Blant-Altman plots), the within-subject stability compared to between-subject variability seems not to be great. Furthermore, I don't think such a small sample size qualifies for a rigorous assessment of stability.

      Indeed, we did not intend to provide a rigorous assessment of within-subject stability. Rather, we aimed to confirm that data quality/concentration ratios did not systematically differ between the same subjects tested longitudinally; driven, for example, by scanner heating or time of day. As with the phantom testing, we attempted to give readers an idea of the quality of the data, as they were collected from a primarily clinical rather than a research site.

      In the revised manuscript, we have removed the statement regarding stability and the associated section.

      - "Why might an enhanced inhibitory drive, as indicated by the lower Glx/GABA ratio" Is this interpretation really warranted, as the results of the group differences in the Glx/GABA ratio seem to be rather driven by a decreased Glx concentration in CC rather than an increased GABA (see Figure 2).

      We used the Glx/GABA+ ratio as a measure, rather than individual Glx or GABA+ concentration, which did not significantly differ between groups. As detailed in Response 2.2, we think this metric aligns better with an underlying E/I balance hypothesis and has been used in many previous studies (Gao et al., 2024; Liu et al., 2015; Narayan et al., 2022; Perica et al., 2022).

      Our interpretation of an enhanced inhibitory drive additionally comes from the combination of aperiodic EEG (1-20 Hz) and MRS measures, which, when considered together, are consistent with a decreased E/I ratio.

      In the revised manuscript, we have rewritten the Discussion and removed this section.   

      - Glx concentration predicted the aperiodic intercept in CC individuals' visual cortices during ambient and flickering visual stimulation. Why specifically investigate the Glx concentration, when the paper is about E/I ratio?

      As stated in the methods, we exploratorily assessed the relationship between all MRS parameters (Glx, GABA+ and Glx/GABA+ ratio) with the aperiodic parameters (slope, offset), and corrected for multiple comparisons accordingly. We think this is a worthwhile analysis considering the rarity of the dataset/population (see 1.2, 1.6, 2.1 and Reviewer 1’s comments about future hypotheses). We only report the Glx – aperiodic intercept correlation in the main manuscript as it survived correction for multiple comparisons.

      (3.7) Interpretation of the correlation between MRS measurements and EEG aperiodic signal:

      - The authors wrote: "The intercept of the aperiodic activity was highly correlated with the Glx concentration during rest with eyes open and during flickering stimulation (also see Supplementary Material S11). Based on the assumption that the aperiodic intercept reflects broadband firing (Manning et al., 2009; Winawer et al., 2013), this suggests that the Glx concentration might be related to broadband firing in CC individuals during active and passive visual stimulation." These results should not be interpreted (or with very caution) for several reasons (see also problem with influences on aperiodic intercept and small sample size). This is a result of the exploratory analyses of correlating every EEG parameter with every MRS parameter. This requires well-powered replication before any interpretation can be provided. Furthermore and importantly: why should this be specifically only in CC patients, but not in the SC control group?

      We have indicated clearly in all parts of the manuscript that these correlations are presented as exploratory. Further, we interpret the Glx-aperiodic offset correlation, and none of the others, as it survived the Bonferroni correction for multiple comparisons. We offer a hypothesis in the Discussion as to why such a correlation might exist in the CC but not the SC group (see response 2.2), and do not speculate further.

      (3.8) Language and presentation:

      - The manuscript requires language improvements and correction of numerous typos. Over-simplifications and unclear statements are present, which could mislead or confuse readers (see also interpretation of aperiodic signal).

      In the revised manuscript, we have checked that speculations are clearly marked, and typos are removed.

      - The authors state that "Together, the present results provide strong evidence for experience-dependent development of the E/I ratio in the human visual cortex, with consequences for behavior." The results of the study do not provide any strong evidence, because of the small sample size and exploratory analyses approach and not accounting for possible confounding factors.

      We disagree with this statement and allude to convergent evidence of both MRS and neurophysiological measures. The latter link to corresponding results observed in a larger sample of CC individuals (Ossandón et al., 2023). In the revised manuscript, we have rephrased the statement as “to provide initial evidence” (Page 22, Line 676).

      - "Our results imply a change in neurotransmitter concentrations as a consequence of *restoring* vision following congenital blindness." This is a speculative statement to infer a causal relationship on cross-sectional data.

      As mentioned under 2.1, we conducted a cross-sectional study which might justify future longitudinal work. In order to advance science, new testable hypotheses were put forward at the end of a manuscript.

      In the revised manuscript, we rephrased the sentence and added “might imply” to better indicate the hypothetical character of this idea (Page 22, Lines 586-587).

      - In the limitation section, the authors wrote: "The sample size of the present study is relatively high for the rare population , but undoubtedly, overall, rather small." This sentence should be rewritten, as the study is plein underpowered. The further justification "We nevertheless think that our results are valid. Our findings neurochemically (Glx and GABA+ concentration), and anatomically (visual cortex) specific. The MRS parameters varied with parameters of the aperiodic EEG activity and visual acuity. The group differences for the EEG assessments corresponded to those of a larger sample of CC individuals (n=38) (Ossandón et al., 2023), and effects of chronological age were as expected from the literature." These statements do not provide any validation or justification of small samples. Furthermore, the current data set is a subset of an earlier published paper by the same authors "The EEG data sets reported here were part of data published earlier (Ossandón et al., 2023; Pant et al., 2023)." Thus, the statement "The group differences for the EEG assessments corresponded to those of a larger sample of CC individuals (n=38) " is a circular argument and should be avoided.

      Our intention was not to justify having a small sample, but to justify why we think the results might be valid as they align with/replicate existing literature.

      In the revised manuscript, we added a figure showing that the EEG results of the 10 subjects considered here correspond to those of the 28 other subjects of Ossandón et al (Supplementary Material S18). We adapted the text accordingly, clearly stating that the pattern of EEG results of the ten subjects reported here replicate those of the 28 additional subjects of Ossandón et al. (2023) (Page 25, Lines 671-672).

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      Recommendations for the Authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for The Authors):

      Thank you for the interesting submission. I have inserted my comments to the authors here. Some of them will be more granular comments related to the concerns raised in the public review.

      (1) Introduction:

      Could you please justify the rationale for using eyes open and eyes closed in the MRS condition, and the use of the three different conditions in the EEG experiment? If these resulted in negative findings, then the implications should be discussed.

      Previous work with MRS in sighted individuals has suggested that eye opening in darkness results in a decrease of visual cortex GABA+ concentration, while visual stimulation results in an increase of Glx concentration, compared to a baseline concentration at eye closure (Kurcyus et al., 2018). Moreover visual stimulation/eye opening is known to result in an alpha desynchronization (Adrian & Matthews, 1934).

      While previous work of our group has shown significantly reduced alpha oscillatory activity in congenital cataract reversal individual, desynchronization following eye opening was indistinguishable when compared to normally sighted controls (Ossandón et al., 2023; Pant et al., 2023).

      Thus, we decided to include both conditions to test whether a similar pattern of results would emerge for GABA+/Glx concentration.

      We added our motivation to the Introduction of the revised manuscript (Page 4, Lines 122-125) along with the Methods (Page 9, Lines 219-223).

      It does not become clear from the introduction why a higher intercept is predicted in the EEG measure. The rationale for this hypothesis needs to be explained better.

      Given the prior findings suggesting an increased E/I ratio in CC individuals and the proposed link between neuronal firing (Manning et al., 2009) and the aperiodic intercept, we expected a higher intercept for the CC compared to the SC group.

      We have now added this explanation to the Introduction (Page 4, Lines 126-128).

      (2) Participants

      Were participants screened for common MRS exclusion criteria such as history of psychiatric conditions or antidepressant medication, which could alter neurochemistry? If not, then this needs to be pointed out.

      All participants were clinically screened at the LV Prasad Eye Institute, and additionally self-reported no neurological or psychiatric conditions or medications. Moreover, all subjects were screened based exclusion criteria for being scanned using the standard questionnaire of the radiology center.

      We have now made this clear in the Methods (Page 7, Lines 168-171).

      Table 1 needs to show the age of the participant, which can only be derived by adding the columns 'duration of deprivation' and 'time since surgery'. Table 1 also needs to include the controls.

      We have accordingly modified Table 1 in the revised manuscript and added age for the patients as well as the controls (Table 1, Pages 6-7).

      The control cohort is not specific enough to exclude reduced visual acuity, or co-morbidities, as the primary driver of the differences between groups. Ideally, a cohort with developmental cataracts is recruited. Normally sighted participants as a control cohort cannot distinguish between different types of sight loss, or stages of plasticity.

      The goal of this study was not to distinguish between different types of sight loss or stages of plasticity. We aimed to assess whether the most extreme forms of visual deprivation (i.e. congenital and total patterned vision loss) affected the E/I ratio. Low visual acuity and nystagmus are genuine diagnostic criteria (Methods, Page 5, Lines 142-145). Visual acuity cannot solely explain the current findings, since the MRS data were acquired both with eyes closed or diffuse visual stimulation in a dimly lit room, without any visual task.

      With the awareness of the present results, we consider it worthwhile for the future to investigate additional groups such as developmental cataract-reversal individuals, to narrow down the contribution of the age of onset and degree of visual deprivation to the observed group differences.

      (3) Data collection and analysis

      - More detail is needed: how long were the sessions, how long was each part?

      We have added this information on Page 7, Lines 178-181 of the Methods. MRS scanning took between 45 and 60 minutes, EEG testing took 20 minutes excluding the time for capping, and visual acuity testing took 3-5 minutes.

      - It should be mentioned here that the EEG data is a reanalysis of a subset of legacy data, published previously in Ossandón et al., 2023; Pant et al., 2023.

      In the revised manuscript, we explicitly state at the beginning of the “Electrophysiology recordings” section of the Methods (Page 13, Lines 331-334) that the EEG datasets were a subset of previously published data.

      (4) MRS Spectroscopy

      - Please fill out the minimum reporting standards form (Lin et al., 2021), or report all the requested measures in the main document https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33559967/

      We have now filled out this form and added it as Supplementary Material (Supplementary Excel File 1). Additionally, all the requested information has been moved to the Methods section of the main document (MRS Data Quality, Pages 10-12).

      - Information on how the voxels were placed is missing. The visual cortex voxel is not angled parallel to the calcarine, as is a common way to capture processing in the early visual cortex. Describe in the paper what the criteria for successful placement were, and how was it ensured that non-brain tissue was avoided in a voxel of this size.

      Voxel placement was optimized in each subject to avoid the meninges, ventricles, skull and subcortical structures, ensured by examining the voxel region across slices in the acquired T1 volume for each subject. Saturation bands were placed to nullify the skull signal during MRS acquisition, at the anterior (frontal) and posterior (visual) edge of the voxel for every subject. Due to limitations in the clinical scanner rotated/skewed voxels were not possible, and thus voxels were not always located precisely parallel to the calcarine.

      We have added this information to Page 9 (Lines 229-237) of the revised manuscript.

      - Figure 1. shows voxels that are very close to the edge of the brain (frontal cortex) or to the tentorium (visual cortex). Could the authors please calculate the percentage overlap between the visual cortex MRS voxel and the visual cortex, and compare them across groups to ensure that there is no between-group bias from voxel placement?

      We have now added the requested analysis to Supplementary Material S2 and referred to it in the main manuscript on Page 9, Lines 236-237.

      Briefly, the percentage overlap with areas V1-V6 in every individual subject’s visual cortex voxel was 60% or more; the mean overlap in the CC group was 67% and the SC group 70%. The percentage overlap did not differ between groups ( t-test (t(18) = -1.14, p = 0.269)).

      - Figure 1. I would recommend displaying data on a skull-stripped image to avoid identifying information from the participant's T1 profile.

      We have now replaced the images in Figure 1 with skull-stripped images. Note that images from SPM12 were used instead of GannetCoregister, as GannetCoregister only displays images with the skull.

      - Please show more rigor with the MRS quality measures. Several examples of inconsistency and omissions are below.

      • SNR was quantified and shows a difference in SNR between voxel positions, with lower SNR in the frontal cortex. No explanation or discussion of the difference was provided.

      • Looking at S1, the linewidth of NAA seems to be a lot broader in the frontal cortex than in the visual cortex. The figures suggest that acquisition quality was very different between voxel locations, making the comparison difficult.

      • Linewidth of NAA is a generally agreed measure of shim quality in megapress acquisitions (Craven et al., 2022).

      The data quality difference between the frontal and visual cortices has been observed in the literature (Juchem & Graaf, 2017; Rideaux et al., 2022). We nevertheless chose a frontal cortex voxel as control site instead of the often-chosen sensorimotor cortex. The main motivation was to avoid any cortical region linked to sensory processing since crossmodal compensation as a consequence of visual deprivation is a well-documented phenomenon.

      We now make this clearer in the Methods (Page 11, Lines 284 – 299), in the Discussion/Limitations (Page 25, Lines 662 - 665).  

      - To get a handle on the data quality, I would recommend that the authors display their MRS quality measures in a separate section 'MRS quality measure', including NAA linewidth, NAA SNR, GABA+ CRLB, Glx CRLB, and test for the main effects and interaction of voxel location (VC, FC) and group (SC, CC) and discuss any discrepancies.

      We have moved all the quality metric values for GABA+, Glx and NAA from the supplement to the Methods section (see Table 2), and added the requested section titled “MRS Data quality.”

      We have conducted the requested analyses and reported them in Supplementary Material S6: there was a strong effect of region confirming that data quality was better in the visual than frontal region. We have referred to this in the main manuscript on Page 11, Line 299.

      In the revised manuscript, we discuss the data quality in the frontal cortex, and how we ensured it was comparable to prior work. Moreover, there were no significant group effects, or group-by-region interactions, suggesting that group differences observed for the visual cortex voxel cannot be accounted for by differences in data quality. We now included a section on data quality, both in the Methods (Page 11, Lines 284 – 299), and the limitations section of the Discussion (Page 25, Lines 662 - 665).

      Please clarify the MRS acquisition, "Each MEGA- PRESS scan lasted for 8 minutes and was acquired with the following specifications: TR = 2000 ms, TE = 68 ms, Voxel size = 40 mm x 30 mm x 25mm, 192 averages (each consists of two TRs). "192 averages x 2 TRs x 2s TR = 12.8 min, not 8 min, apologies if I have misunderstood these details.

      We have corrected this error in the revised manuscript and stated the parameters more clearly – there were a total of 256 averages, resulting in an (256 repetitions with 1 TR * 2 s/60) 8.5-minute scan (Page 8, Lines 212-213).

      - What was presented to participants in the eyes open MRS? Was it just normal room illumination or was it completely dark? Please add details to your methods.

      The scans were conducted in regular room illumination, with no visual stimulation.

      We have now clarified this on Page 9 (Lines 223-224) of the Methods.

      (5) MRS analysis

      How was the tissue fraction correction performed? Please add or refer to the exact equation from Harris et al., 2015.

      We have clarified that the reported GABA+/Glx values are water-normalized alpha corrected values (Page 10, Line 249), and cited Harris et al., 2015 on Page 10 (Line 251) of the Methods.

      (6) Statistical approach

      How was the sample size determined? Please add your justification for the sample size

      We collected as many qualifying patients as we were able to recruit for this study within 2.5 years of data collection (commencing August 2019, ending February 2022), given the constraints of the patient population and the pandemic. We have now made this clear in the Discussion (Page 25, Lines 650-652).

      Please report the tests for normality.

      We have now reported the Shapiro-Wilk test results for normality as well as Levene’s test for homogeneity of variance between groups for every dependent variable in our dataset in Supplementary Material S9, and added references to it in the descriptions of the statistical analyses (Methods, Page13, Lines 326-329 and Page 15, Lines 400-402).

      Calculate the Bayes Factor where possible.

      As our analyses are all frequentist, instead of re-analyzing the data within a Bayesian framework, we added partial eta squared values for all the reported ANOVAs (η<sub>p</sub><sup>²</sup>) for readers to get an idea of the effect size (Results).

      I recommend partial correlations to control for the influence of age, duration, and time of surgery, rather than separate correlations.

      Given the combination of small sample size and the expected multicollinearity in our variables (duration of blindness, for example, would be expected to correlate with age, as well as visual acuity post-surgery), partial correlations could not be calculated on this data.

      We are aware of the limits of correlational analyses. Given the unique data set of a rare population we had exploratorily planned to relate behavioral, EEG and MRS parameters by calculating correlations. Since no similar data existed when we started (and to the best of our knowledge our data set is still unique), these correlation analyses were explorative, but the most transparent to run.

      We have now clearly outlined these limitations in our Introduction (Page 5, Lines 133-135), Methods (Page 15, Lines 408-410) and Discussion section (Page 24, Line 634, Page 25, Lines 652-65) to ensure that the results are interpreted with appropriate caution.

      (7) Visual acuity

      Is the VA monocular average, from the dominant eye, or bilateral?

      We have now clarified that the VA reported here is bilateral (Methods, Page 7 Line 165 and Page 15, Line 405). Bilateral visual acuity in congenital cataract-reversal individuals typically corresponds to the visual acuity of the best eye.

      It is mentioned here that correlations with VA are exploratory, please be consistent as the introduction mentions that there was a hypothesis that you sought to test.

      We have now accordingly modified the Introduction (Page 5, Lines 133-135) and added the appropriate caveats in the discussion with regards to interpretations (Page 25, Lines 652-665).

      (8) Correlation analyses between MRS and EEG

      It is mentioned here that correlations between EEG and MRS are exploratory, please consistently point out the exploratory nature, as these results are preliminary and should not be overinterpreted ("We did not have prior hypotheses as to the best of our knowledge no extant literature has tested the correlation between aperiodic EEG activity and MRS measures of GABA+,Glx and Glx/GABA+." ).

      In the revised manuscript, we explicitly state the reported associations between EEG (aperiodic component) and MRS parameters allow for putting forward directed / more specific hypotheses for future studies (Introduction, Page 5, Lines 133-135; Methods, Page 15, Line 415. Discussion, Page 25, Lines 644-645 and Lines 652-665).

      (9) Results

      Figure 2 uses the same y-axis for the visual cortex and frontal cortex to facilitate a comparison between the two locations. Comparing Figure 2 a with b demonstrates poorer spectral peaks and reduced amplitudes. Lower spectral quality in the frontal cortex voxel could contribute to the absence of a group effect in the control voxel location. The major caveat that spectral quality differs between voxels needs to be pointed out and the limitations thereof discussed.

      We have now explicitly pointed out this issue in the Methods (MRS Data Quality, Supplementary Material S6) and Discussion in the Limitations section (Page 25, Lines 662-665). While data quality was lower for the frontal compared to the visual cortex voxels, as has been observed previously (Juchem & Graaf, 2017; Rideaux et al., 2022), this was not an issue for the EEG recordings. Thus, lower sensitivity of frontal measures cannot easily explain the lack of group differences for frontal measures. Crucially, data quality did not differ between groups.

      The results in 2c are the result of multiple correlations with metabolite values ("As in previous studies, we ran a number of exploratory correlation analyses between GABA+, Glx, and Glx/GABA+ concentrations, and visual acuity at the date of testing, duration of visual deprivation, and time since surgery respectively in the CC group"), it seems at least six for the visual acuity measure (VA vs Glx, VA vs GABA+, VA vs Glx/GABA+ x 2 conditions). While the trends are interesting, they should be interpreted with caution because of the exploratory nature, small sample size, the lack of multiple comparison correction, and the influence of two extreme data points. The authors should not overinterpret these results and should point out the need for replication.

      See response to (6) last section, which we copy here for convenience:

      We are aware of the limits of correlational analyses. Given the unique data set of a rare population we exploratorily related behavioral, EEG and MRS parameters by calculating correlations. Since no similar data existed when we started (and to the best of our knowledge our data set is still unique), these correlation analyses were explorative, but the most transparent to run.

      We have now clearly outlined these limitations in our Discussion section to ensure that the results are interpreted with appropriate caution (Discussion, Page 25, Lines 644-645 and Lines 652-665).

      (10) Discussion:

      Please explain the decrease in E/I balance from MRS in view of recent findings on an increase in E/I balance in CC using RSN-fMRI (Raczy et al., 2022) and EEG (Ossandon et al. 2023).

      We have edited our Abstract (Page 1-2, Lines 31-35) and Discussion (Page 23, Lines 584-590; Page 24, Lines 613-620). In brief, we think our results reflect a homeostatic regulation of E/I balance, that is, an increase in inhibition due to an increase in stimulus driven excitation following sight restoration.

      Names limitations but does nothing to mitigate concerns about spatial specificity. The limitations need to be rewritten to include differences in SNR between the visual cortex and frontal lobe. Needs to include caveats of small samples, including effect inflation.

      We have now discussed the data quality differences between the visual and frontal cortex voxel in MRS data quality, which we find irrespective of group (MRS Data Quality, Supplementary Material S6). We also reiterate why this might not explain our results; data quality was comparable to prior studies which have found group differences in frontal cortex (Methods Page 11, Lines 284 – 299), and data quality did not differ between groups. Further, EEG data quality did not differ across frontal and occipital regions, but group differences in EEG datasets were localized to the occipital cortex.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for The Authors):

      To address the main weakness, the authors could consider including data from a third group, of congenitally blind individuals. Including this would go a very long way towards making the findings interpretable and relating them to the rest of the literature.

      Unfortunately, recruitment of these groups was not possible due to the pandemic. Indeed, we would consider a pre- vs post- surgery approach the most suitable design in the future, which, however, will require several years to be completed. Such time and resource intensive longitudinal studies are justified by the present cross-sectional results.

      We have explicitly stated our contribution and need for future studies in the Limitations section of the Discussion (Page 25, Lines 650-657).

      Analysing the amplitude of alpha rhythms, as well as the other "aperiodic" components, would be useful to relate the profile of the tested patients with previous studies. Visual inspection of Figure 3 suggests that alpha power with eyes closed is not reduced in the patients' group compared to the controls. This would be inconsistent with previous studies (including research from the same group) and it could suggest that the small selected sample is not really representative of the sight-recovery population - certainly one of the most heterogeneous study populations. This further highlights the difficulty of drawing conclusions on the effects of visual experience merely based on this N=10 set of patients.

      Alpha power was indeed reduced in the present subsample of 10 CC individuals (Supplementary Material S19). A possible source of the confusion (that the graphs of the CC and SC group look so similar for the EC condition in Figure 3) likely is that the spectra are shown with aperiodic components not yet removed, and scales to accommodate very different alpha power values. As documented in Supplementary Material S18 and S19, alpha power and the aperiodic intercept/slope results of the resting state data in the present 10 CC individuals correspond to the results from a larger sample of CC individuals (n = 28) in Ossandón et al., 2023. We explicitly highlight this “replication” in the main manuscript (Page 25 -26, Lines 671-676). Thus, the present sub-sample of CC individuals are representative for their population.

      To further characterise the MRS results, the authors may consider an alternative normalisation scheme. It is not clear whether the lack of significant GABA and GLX differences in the face of a significant group difference in the GLX/GABA ratio is due to the former measures being noisier since taking the ratio between two metabolites often helps reduce inter-individual variability and thereby helps revealing group differences. It remains an open question whether the GABA or GLX concentrations would show significant group differences after appropriate normalisation (e.g. NAA?).

      We repeated the analysis with Creatine-normalized values of GABA+ and Glx, and the main results i.e. reduced Glx/GABA+ concentration in the visual cortex of CC vs SC individuals, and no such difference in the frontal cortex, remained the same (Supplementary Material S5).

      Further, we re-analyzed the data using Osprey, an open-source toolbox that uses linear combination modeling, and found once more that our results did not change (Supplementary Material S3). We refer to these findings in the Methods (Page 10, Lines 272-275) and Results (Page 10, Lines 467-471) of the main manuscript.

      In fact, the Glx concentration in the visual cortex of CC vs SC individuals was significantly decreased when Cr-normalized values were used (which was not significant in the original analysis). However, we do not interpret this result as it was not replicated with the water-normalized values from Gannet or Osprey.

      I suggest revising the discussion to present a more balanced picture of the existent evidence of the relation between E/I and EEG indices. Although there is evidence that the 1/f slope changes across development, in a way that could be consistent with a higher slope reflecting more immature and excitable tissue, the link with cortical E/I is far from established, especially when referring to specific EEG indices (intercept vs. slope, measured in lower vs. higher frequency ranges).

      We have revised the Introduction (Page 4, Line 91, Lines 101-102) and Discussion (Page 22, Lines 568-569, Page 24, Lines 645-647 and Lines 654-657) in the manuscript accordingly; we allude to the fact that the links between cortical E/I and aperiodic EEG indices have not yet been unequivocally established in the literature.

      Minor:

      - The authors estimated NAA concentration with different software than the one used to estimate GLX and GABA; this examined the OFF spectra only; I suggest that the authors consider running their analysis with LCModel, which would allow a straightforward approach to estimate concentrations of all three metabolites from the same edited spectrum and automatically return normalised concentrations as well as water-related ones.

      We re-analyzed all of the MRS datasets using Osprey, which uses linear combination modelling and has shown quantification results similar to LCModel for NAA (Oeltzschner et al., 2020). The results of a lower Glx/GABA+ concentration in the visual cortex of CC vs SC individuals, and no difference in NAA concentration, were replicated using this pipeline.

      We have now added these analyses to the Supplementary Material S3 and referred to them in the Methods (Page 9, Lines 242-246) and Results (Page 18, Lines 464-467).

      - Of course the normalisation used to estimate GABA and GLX values is completely irrelevant when the two values are expressed as ratio GLX/GABA - this may be reflected in the text ("water normalised GLX/GABA concentration" should read "GLX/GABA concentration" instead).

      We have adapted the text on Page 16 (Line 431) and have ensured that throughout the manuscript the use of “water-normalized” is in reference to Glx or GABA+ concentration, and not the ratio.

      - Please specify which equation was used for tissue correction - is it alpha-correction?

      We have clarified that the reported GABA+/Glx values are water-normalized alpha corrected values (Page 10, Line 249), and cited Harris et al., 2015 on Page 10 (Line 251) of the Methods.

      - Since ANOVA was used, the assumption is that values are normally distributed. Please report evidence supporting this assumption.

      We have now reported the Shapiro-Wilk test results for normality as well as Levene’s test for homogeneity of variance between groups for every dependent variable in our dataset in Supplementary Material S9, and added references to it in the Methods (Page 13, Lines 326-329 and Page 15, Lines 400-402).

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for The Authors):

      In addition to addressing major comments listed in my Public Review, I have the following, more granular comments, which should also be addressed:

      (1) The paper's structure could be improved by presenting visual acuity data before diving into MRS and EEG results to better contextualize the findings.

      We now explicitly state in the Methods (Page 5, Line 155) that lower visual acuity is expected in a cohort of CC individuals with long lasting congenital visual deprivation.

      We have additionally included a plot of visual acuities of the two groups (Supplementary Material S1).

      (2) The paper should better explain the differences between CC for which sight is restored and congenitally blind patients. The authors write in the introduction that there are sensitive periods/epochs during the lifespan for the development of local inhibitory neural circuits. and "Human neuroimaging studies have similarly demonstrated that visual experience during the first weeks and months of life is crucial for the development of visual circuits. If human infants born with dense bilateral cataracts are treated later than a few weeks from birth, they suffer from a permanent reduction of not only visual acuity (Birch et al., 1998; Khanna et al., 2013) and stereovision (Birch et al., 1993; Tytla et al., 1993) but additionally from impairments in higher-level visual functions, such as face perception (Le Grand et al., 2001; Putzar et al., 2010; Röder et al., 2013)...".

      Thus it seems that the current participants (sight restored after a sensitive period) seem to be similarly affected by the development of the local inhibitory circuits as congenitally blind. To assess the effect of plasticity and sight restoration longitudinal data would be necessary.

      In the Introduction (Page 2, Lines 59-64; Page 3, Lines 111-114) we added that in order to identify sensitive periods e.g. for the elaboration of visual neural circuits, sight recovery individuals need to be investigated. The study of permanently blind individuals allows for investigating the role of experience (whether sight is necessary to introduce the maturation of visual neural circuits), but not whether visual input needs to be available at early epochs in life (i.e. whether sight restoration following congenital blindness could nevertheless lead to the development of visual circuits).

      This is indeed the conclusion we make in the Discussion section. We have now highlighted the need for longitudinal assessments in the Discussion (Page 25, Lines 654-656).

      (3) What's the underlying idea of analyzing two separate aperiodic slopes (20-40Hz and 1-19Hz). This is very unusual to compute the slope between 20-40 Hz, where the SNR is rather low.

      "Ossandón et al. (2023), however, observed that in addition to the flatter slope of the aperiodic power spectrum in the high frequency range (20-40 Hz), the slope of the low frequency range (1-19 Hz) was steeper in both, congenital cataract-reversal individuals, as well as in permanently congenitally blind humans."

      The present manuscript computed the slope between 1-20 Hz. Ossandón et al. as well as Medel et al. (2023) found a “knee” of the 1/f distribution at 20 Hz and describe further the motivations for computing both slope ranges. For example, Ossandón et al. used a data driven approach and compared single vs. dual fits and found that the latter fitted the data better. Additionally, they found the best fit if a knee at 20 Hz was used. We would like to point out that no standard range exists for the fitting of the 1/f component across the literature and, in fact, very different ranges have been used (Gao et al., 2017; Medel et al., 2023; Muthukumaraswamy & Liley, 2018).

      (4) "For this scan, participants were instructed to keep their eyes closed and stay as still as possible." Why should it be important to have the eyes closed during a T1w data acquisition? This statement at this location does not make sense.

      To avoid misunderstandings, we removed this statement in this context.

      (5) "Two SC subjects did not complete the frontal cortex scan for the EO condition and were excluded from the statistical comparisons of frontal cortex neurotransmitter concentrations."<br /> Why did the authors not conduct whole-brain MRS, which seems to be on the market for quite some time (e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3590062/) ?

      Similar to previous work (Coullon et al., 2015; Weaver et al., 2013) our hypothesis was related to the visual cortex, and we chose the frontal cortex voxel as a control. This has now been clarified in the Introduction (Page 4, Lines 103-114), Methods (Page 9, Lines 225-227) and Discussion (Page 25, Lines 662-665).

      (6) In "....during visual stimulation with stimuli that changed in luminance (LU) (Pant et al., 2023)." the authors should provide a link on the visual stimulation, which is provided further below

      In the revised manuscript, we have moved up the description of the visual stimulation (Page 13, Line 336).

      (7) "During the EO condition, participants were asked to fixate on a blank screen." This is not really possible. Typically, resting state EO conditions include a fixation cross, as the participants would not be able to fixate on a blank screen and move their eyes, which would impact the recordings.

      We have now rephrased this as “look towards” with the goal of avoiding eye movements (Page 14, Line 347).

      (8) "Components corresponding to horizontal or vertical eye movements were identified via visual inspection and removed (Plöchl et al., 2012)." It is unclear what the Plöchl reference should serve for. Is the intention of the authors to state that manual (and subjective) visual inspection of the ICA components is adequate? I would recommend removing this reference.

      The intention was to provide the basis for classification during the visual inspection, as opposed to an automated method such as ICLabel.

      We stated this clearly in the revised manuscript (Page 14 Lines 368-370).

      (9) "The datasets were divided into 6.25 s long epochs corresponding to each trial." This is a bit inaccurate, as the trial also included some motor response task. Thus, I assume the 6.25 s are related to the visual stimulation.

      We have modified the sentence accordingly (Page 15, Line 378).

      (10) Figure 2. a & b. Just an esthetic suggestion: I would recommend removing the lines between the EC and EO conditions, as they suggest some longitudinal changes. Unless it is important to highlight the changes between EC and EO within each subject.

      In fact, EC vs. EO was a within-subject factor with expected changes for the EEG and possible changes in the MRS parameters. To allow the reader to track changes due to EC vs. EO for individual subjects (rather than just comparing the change in the mean scores), we use lines.  

      (11) Figure 3A: I would plot the same y-axis range for both groups to make it more comparable.

      We have changed Figure 3A accordingly.

      (12) " flattening of the intercept" replaces flattening, as it is too related to slope.

      We have replaced “flattening” with “reduction” (Page 20, Line 517).

      (13) The plotting of only the significant correlation between MRS measures and EEG measures seems to be rather selective reporting. For this type of exploratory analysis, I would recommend plotting all of the scatter plots and moving the entire exploratory analysis to the supplementary (as this provides the smallest evidence of the results).

      We have made clear in the Methods (Page 16, Lines 415-426), Results and Discussion (page 24, Lines 644-645), as well as in the Supplementary material, that the reason for only reporting the significant correlation was that this correlation survived correction for multiple comparisons, while all other correlations did not. We additionally explicitly allude to the Supplementary Material where the plots for all correlations are shown (Results, Page 21, Lines 546-552).

      (14) "Here, we speculate that due to limited structural plasticity after a phase of congenital blindness, the neural circuits of CC individuals, which had adapted to blindness after birth, employ available, likely predominantly physiological plasticity mechanisms (Knudsen, 1998; Mower et al., 1985; Röder et al., 2021), in order to re-adapt to the newly available visual excitation following sight restoration."

      I don't understand the logic here. The CC individuals are congenitally blind, thus why should there be any physiological plasticity mechanism to adapt to blindness, if they were blind at birth?

      With “adapt to blindness” we mean adaptation of a brain to an atypical or unexpected condition when taking an evolutionary perspective (i.e. the lack of vision). We have made this clear in the revised manuscript (Introduction, Page 4, Lines 111-114; Discussion, Page 23, Lines 584-591).

      (15) "An overall reduction in Glx/GABA ratio would counteract the aforementioned adaptations to congenital blindness, e.g. a lower threshold for excitation, which might come with the risk of runaway excitation in the presence of restored visually-elicited excitation."

      This could be tested by actually investigating the visual excitation by visual stimulation studies.

      The visual stimulation condition in the EEG experiment of the present study found a higher aperiodic intercept in CC compared to SC individuals. Given the proposed link between the intercept and spontaneous neural firing (Manning et al., 2009), we interpreted the higher intercept in CC individuals as increased broadband neural firing during visual stimulation (Results Figure 3; Discussion Page 24, Lines 635-640). This idea is compatible with enhanced BOLD responses during an EO condition in CC individuals (Raczy et al., 2022). Future work should systematically manipulate visual stimulation to test this idea.

      (16) As the authors also collected T1w images, the hypothesis of increased visual cortex thickness in CC. Was this investigated?

      This hypothesis was investigated in a separate publication which included this subset of participants (Hölig et al., 2023), and found increased visual cortical thickness in the CC group. We refer to this publication, and related work (Feng et al., 2021) in the present manuscript.

      (17) The entire discussion of age should be omitted, as the current data set is too small to assess age effects.

      We have removed this section and just allude to the fact that we replicated typical age trends to underline the validity of the present data (Page 26, Lines 675-676).

      (18) Table1: should include the age and the age at the time point of surgery.

      We added age to the revised Table 1. We clarified that in CC individuals, duration of blindness is the same as age at the time point of surgery (Page 6, Line 163).

      (19) Why no group comparisons of visual acuity are reported?

      Lower visual acuity in CC than SC individuals is a well-documented fact.

      We have now added the visual acuity plots for readers (Supplementary Material S1, referred to in the Methods, Page 5, Line 155) which highlight this common finding.

      References (Recommendations to the Authors)

      Adrian, E. D., & Matthews, B. H. C. (1934). The berger rhythm: Potential changes from the occipital lobes in man. Brain. https://doi.org/10.1093/brain/57.4.355

      Coullon, G. S. L., Emir, U. E., Fine, I., Watkins, K. E., & Bridge, H. (2015). Neurochemical changes in the pericalcarine cortex in congenital blindness attributable to bilateral anophthalmia. Journal of Neurophysiology. https://doi.org/10.1152/jn.00567.2015

      Feng, Y., Collignon, O., Maurer, D., Yao, K., & Gao, X. (2021). Brief postnatal visual deprivation triggers long-lasting interactive structural and functional reorganization of the human cortex. Frontiers in Medicine, 8, 752021. https://doi.org/10.3389/FMED.2021.752021/BIBTEX

      Gao, R., Peterson, E. J., & Voytek, B. (2017). Inferring synaptic excitation/inhibition balance from field potentials. NeuroImage, 158(March), 70–78. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuroimage.2017.06.078

      Hölig, C., Guerreiro, M. J. S., Lingareddy, S., Kekunnaya, R., & Röder, B. (2023). Sight restoration in congenitally blind humans does not restore visual brain structure. Cerebral Cortex, 33(5), 2152–2161. https://doi.org/10.1093/CERCOR/BHAC197

      Juchem, C., & Graaf, R. A. de. (2017). B0 magnetic field homogeneity and shimming for in vivo magnetic resonance spectroscopy. Analytical Biochemistry, 529, 17–29. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ab.2016.06.003

      Kurcyus, K., Annac, E., Hanning, N. M., Harris, A. D., Oeltzschner, G., Edden, R., & Riedl, V. (2018). Opposite Dynamics of GABA and Glutamate Levels in the Occipital Cortex during Visual Processing. Journal of Neuroscience, 38(46), 9967–9976. https://doi.org/10.1523/JNEUROSCI.1214-18.2018

      Manning, J. R., Jacobs, J., Fried, I., & Kahana, M. J. (2009). Broadband shifts in local field potential power spectra are correlated with single-neuron spiking in humans. The Journal of Neuroscience : The Official Journal of the Society for Neuroscience, 29(43), 13613–13620. https://doi.org/10.1523/JNEUROSCI.2041-09.2009

      Medel, V., Irani, M., Crossley, N., Ossandón, T., & Boncompte, G. (2023). Complexity and 1/f slope jointly reflect brain states. Scientific Reports, 13(1), 21700. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-023-47316-0

      Muthukumaraswamy, S. D., & Liley, D. T. (2018). 1/F electrophysiological spectra in resting and drug-induced states can be explained by the dynamics of multiple oscillatory relaxation processes. NeuroImage, 179(November 2017), 582–595. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuroimage.2018.06.068

      Oeltzschner, G., Zöllner, H. J., Hui, S. C. N., Mikkelsen, M., Saleh, M. G., Tapper, S., & Edden, R. A. E. (2020). Osprey: Open-source processing, reconstruction & estimation of magnetic resonance spectroscopy data. Journal of Neuroscience Methods, 343, 108827. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jneumeth.2020.108827

      Ossandón, J. P., Stange, L., Gudi-Mindermann, H., Rimmele, J. M., Sourav, S., Bottari, D., Kekunnaya, R., & Röder, B. (2023). The development of oscillatory and aperiodic resting state activity is linked to a sensitive period in humans. NeuroImage, 275, 120171. https://doi.org/10.1016/J.NEUROIMAGE.2023.120171

      Pant, R., Ossandón, J., Stange, L., Shareef, I., Kekunnaya, R., & Röder, B. (2023). Stimulus-evoked and resting-state alpha oscillations show a linked dependence on patterned visual experience for development. NeuroImage: Clinical, 103375. https://doi.org/10.1016/J.NICL.2023.103375

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    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      This manuscript by Neininger-Castro and colleagues presents a novel automatic image analysis method for assessing sarcomeres, the basic units of myofibrils and validates this tool in a couple of experimental approaches that interfere with sarcomere assembly in iPSCcardiomyocytes (iPSC-CM).

      Automatic quantification of sarcomeres is definitely something that is useful to the field. I am surprised that there is no reference in the manuscript to SarcTrack, published by Toepfer and colleagues in 2019 (PMID 30700234), which has exactly the same purpose. The advantage of the image analysis software presented in the current manuscript appears to me to be that it can cover both mature sarcomeres and nascent sarcomeres in premyofibrils effectively.

      We whole-heartedly disagree that SarcTrack has the exact same purpose as sarcApp. sarcApp measures more than the frequency of actinin2 images, and can measure real-space quantifications of actinin, myomesin, and titin, which has not been done before in this way. However, SarcTrack is an interesting method that we hope many researchers find helpful in their research. SarcTrack is a particle tracker that outputs the dimensions of the objects found, but does not distinguish between Z-Lines and other actinin2-positive structures (Z-Bodies, adhesions). It also does not group these structures into higher order structures such as myofibrils and muscle stress fibers.

      When going through the manuscript there were a few issues that should be addressed in a revised version of the manuscript:

      1) I am a bit puzzled that they took 1.4 um length as a cutoff length for a mature A-band in their quantifications, since the consensus in the field for thick filament length seems to be 1.6 um?

      We use 1.4 µm as a cutoff length for the length of a Z-Line rather than the A-Band. We believe the reviewer is referring to the width of the A-Band perpendicular to the Z-lines, which is indeed 1.6 µm. However, we are referring to the length of the Z-Lines, which can span anywhere from 1.4 µm to up to 10 or more µm. Thank you for allowing us to make the clarification.

      2) When doing the knockdown for alpha and beta-myosin heavy chain, respectively, why did they not also do a Western blot for the "other" isoform as well (Figure 7)? We know that iPSCCM express a mixture, so the relatively mild phenotype that they observe in single knockdown experiments may well be due to concomitant upregulation of the expression of the other isoform. In my point of view this should be checked.

      It is likely that in the single knockdown experiments the other isoform is upregulated, which is why we were careful in stating that neither muscle myosin alone is required for sarcomere formation. We do agree this would be an interesting experiment to check beyond the scope of this manuscript.

      3) There seems to be a disconnect between the images for myomesin knockdown shown in Figure 8H and the quantification shown in Figure 8I, which makes me wonder whether the image shown in H middle (MYOM1 (1) KD), where the beta-myosin doublets do not seem to be much affected is really representative?

      The image shown in the middle of H is representative of the mean length of beta-myosin doublets in MYOM1 (1) KD hiCMs. While the beta-myosin doublets are still present and organized, they are significantly shorter. In the zoomed out image, you can appreciate much shorter arrays of beta-myosin doublets that, while extending across the entire cell, are thinner than control cells.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Neininger-Castro et al report on their original study entitled "Independent regulation of Z-lines and M-lines during sarcomere assembly in cardiac myocytes revealed by the automatic image analysis software sarcApp", In this study, the research team developed two software, yoU-Net and sarcApp, that provide new binarization and sarcomere quantification methods. The authors further utilized human induced pluripotent stem cell-derived cardiomyocytes (hiCMs) as their model to verify their software by staining multiple sarcomeric components with and without the treatment of Blebbistatin, a known myosin II activity inhibitor. With the treatment of different Blebbistatin concentrations, the morphology of sarcomeric proteins was disturbed. These disrupted sarcomeric structures were further quantified using sarcApp and the quantification data supported the phenotype. The authors further investigated the roles of muscle myosins in sarcomere assembly by knocking down MYH6, MYH7, or MYOM in hiCMs. The knockdown of these genes did not affect Z-line assembly yet the knockdown of MYOM affected M-line assembly. The authors demonstrated that different muscle myosins participate in sarcomere assembly in different manners.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Neininger-Castro and colleagues developed software tools for the quantification of sarcomeres and sarcomere-precursor features in immunostained human induced pluripotent stem cellderived cardiac myocytes (hiCMs). In the first part they used a deep-learning- based model called a U-Net to construct and train a network for binarization of immunostained cardiomyocyte images. They also wrote graphical user interface (GUI) software that will assist other labs in using this approach and made it publicly available. They did not compare their approach to existing ones, but an example from one image suggests their binarization tool outperforms Otsu thresholding binarization.

      In the second part they developed a software tool called sarcApp that classifies sarcomere structures in the binarized image as a Z-Line or Z-Body and assigns each to either a myofibril or to stress fibers. The tools can then automatically count and measure multiple features (33 per cell and 24 per myofibril) and report them on a per-cell, per-myofibril, and per- stress fiber basis.

      To test the tools they used Blebbistatin to inhibit sarcomere assembly and showed that the sarcApp tool could capture changes in multiple features such as fewer myofibrils, fewer Z-Lines, decreased myofibril persistence, decreased Z-Line length and altered myofibril orientation in the Blebbistatin treated cells. With some changes the tool was also shown to quantify sarcomeres in titin and myomesin stained cardiomyocytes.

      Finally they used sarcApp to quantify the changes in sarcomere assembly after siRNA mediated knockout of MYH7, MYH7, or MYOM. The analysis indicates that neither MYH6 nor MYH7 knockdown perturbed the assembly of Z- or M-lines, and that knockdown of MYOM perturbed the A-band/M-Line but not the Z-Line assembly according to features captured by the sarcApp tool.

      Overall the authors developed and made publicly available an excellent software tool that will be very useful for labs that are interested in studying sarcomere assembly. Multiple features that are difficult to measure or count manually can be automatically measured by the software quickly and accurately.

      There are however some remaining questions about these tools:

      1) The binarization tool which is tailored to sarcomere image binarization appears promising but was not systematically compared with existing approaches.

      We compared it with the existing approach we used previously in the lab, which was Otsu’s method for binarization. We are not aware of several other binarization approaches to compare to, other than using other machine learning techniques that are less advanced than a U-Net, the current standard in image-to-image translation.

      2) How robust is the tool? The tool was tested on images from one type of cardiomyocytes (hiCMs) taken from one lab using Nikon Spinning Disk confocal microscope equipped with Apo TIRF Oil 100X 1.49 NA objective or instant Structured Illumination Microscopy (iSIM), using deconvolution (Microvolution software) and in a specific magnification. It remains to be seen whether the tool would be equally effective with images taken with other microscopy systems, with other cardiomyocytes (chick or neonatal rat), with different magnifications, live imaging, etc.

      We tested the software with several magnifications, with live imaging, and with other tissues. We did not include the information in the manuscript because the data we tested the software with is for future manuscripts studying different aspects of sarcomere formation and maintenance. sarcApp reliably identifies Z-Lines and sarcomeres with deconvolved widefield fluorescence images of hiCMs and frozen human tissue, and are currently using it to measure zebrafish data for another study. Further, it works for live imaging with an actinin2-GFP (or similar) label. For the titin quantification, we would recommend using only 60-100X magnification, as the titin structures (doublets and rings) are not resolvable at lower magnifications.

      3) The tool was developed for evaluation of sarcomere assembly. The authors show that for this application it can detect the perturbation by Blebbistatin, or knockdown of sarcomeric genes. It remains to be seen if this tool is also useful for assessment of sarcomere structure for other questions beside sarcomere assembly and in other sarcomere pathologies.

      While this is beyond the scope of this specific methods paper, we welcome other researchers to use our software for other questions in other pathologies. We are currently doing the same for other manuscripts from our lab.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      1)"alpha-actinin..., which border the sarcomeric contractile machinery (thin and thick filaments); Z-lines do NOT border thick filaments in a relaxed sarcomere

      We have removed “(thin and thick filaments)” from the text.

      2) myomesin targeting siRNAs (gene name MYOM): there are actually three genes encoding for myomesin family members, specify, which one was targeted (I am assuming MYOM1).

      Thank you for the clarification: we do target MYOM1

      3) I am not surprised that they found not many mature Z-lines in the absence of both sarcomeric myosins; a similar codependence of assembly of mature Z-discs and the presence of functional thick filaments was previously shown by Geach and colleagues in 2015 (PMID 25845369)

      Thank you for sharing this manuscript: we have added a reference to it in our study.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      This work offers the possibility to gain more insights into the process of sarcomere assembly through the advancement in sarcomeric or myofibril structure analyses. However, some clarifications are needed from the authors, please see below for the comments.

      1) It is recommended that the authors include the time points for replating and harvesting hiCMs. After replating, the cardiomyocytes require at least three to four days for sarcomeric structures to reform. If the hiCMs were fixed before sarcomere assembly had completed, the staining of sarcomeric proteins including ACTN2 and titin could be compromised and it is difficult to tell if the phenotypes observed were consequences of drug treatments or knockdown of sarcomeric genes or simply because the replating hiCMs were fixed before their sarcomeric structures had fully regrown. It is also recommended that the authors replate hiCMs at a fixed time point to avoid discrepancies in the data.

      Cardiomyocytes do not require three to four days for sarcomeric structures to re-form, and indeed only require 24 hours, with the first sarcomeres typically appearing at ~6 hours. We and others have published several studies demonstrating this (Fenix et al., eLIfe 2018, Taneja, Neininger and Burnette MBoC 2020, Chen et al. Nature Methods, 2022). While sarcomeres continue to develop and turn over after this time, our lab is interested in the beginning steps of sarcomerogenesis rather than the turnover of mature structures.

      2) The sarcApp automatically identifies Z-lines and Z-bodies; however, is there an option for the users to set their own thresholds? Some users may select different criterions when quantifying sarcomeres. Moreover, the Z-lines and Z-bodies identified by the software are not always accurate. Can the users modify the list manually in an unbiased way. If this function is not available, the authors may consider adding this function to their software. sarcApp measures Zline and Z-bodies length but does not measure Z-line and Z-bodies width, but sometimes it is also necessary to measure the width.

      Absolutely, users can modify the thresholds to identify Z-Lines and Z-Bodies. There is not a way for users to modify the list in an unbiased way per se, as editing the list of Z-Lines and Z-Bodies based on non-mathematical measurements is inherently biased, but the user is free to add in other Z-Lines and Z-Bodies as they wish. In this context, “manually” and “unbiased” is mutually exclusive.

      3) It is recommended that the authors include the original images beside the sarcomeric structures identified by sarcApp (Figure 2A, 2C, 4C-F and more). It would be easier to compare the original Z-lines and Z-bodies with those identified by the software.

      We have added these in Author response image 1.

      Author response image 1.

      Uncropped images and merges from Figures 2, 4 and 6, respectively.

      4) The M-line length quantification data in Figure 3G, 5F, and 6H showed different colored-dots labeling n1 to n3, but the authors did not discuss the significance of these symbols.

      We are not sure what the reviewer means by this statement: there is no significance of the different colored dots other than to mark the biological replicate shown. These graphs were created using SuperPlots, which was not stated in the original methods. It has now been added to the Statistical Analysis section.

      5) Can the authors elaborate more on the reasons why they treated Blebbistatin at concentrations of 50µM and 100µM. Previous studies showed that 25µM of Blebbistatin was sufficient to delay the transformation of cardiomyocytes (PMID 27072942). Can the authors also comment on why they selected 6 hours, 12 hours, and 24 hours post replating for drug treatment. Moreover, the drug treatment at different time points was only done on ACTN2 but not titin or myomesin.

      We selected 6, 12, and 24 hours for actinin2 to show the time course of sarcomere formation and to show that sarcomeres are developed by 24 hours, as also mentioned above. We are interested in future studies of the time course of titin and myomesin over time, and are working on it in the lab.

      We chose 50 and 100 µM Blebbistatin as these completely blocked sarcomere assembly whereas treatment with 25 µM did not. This manuscript is a methods paper that aims to validate sarcApp and show how it could be used. We did not intend for it to be a comprehensive study of how different concentrations of blebbistatin affects sarcomere assembly.

      We are also unsure what the reviewer means by “transformation of cardiomyocytes”. The manuscript with the PMID of 27072942 does not address this issue. The paper is a “review and analyze readmission data for patients who received a continuous flow left ventricular assist device (LVAD)”. We assume the reviewer is referring to differentiation. The model system we developed and published in eLife in 2018 does not use differentiating iPSC cardiac myocytes. The hiCMs we use are terminally differentiated but still immature, as they are more transcriptionally similar to primary fetal myocytes. As such, they do not maintain their sarcomeres when they removed from the 96 well and plated onto a glass coverslip for highresolution microscopy. These assemble sarcomeres within 24 hours with the sarcomeres forming close to the dorsal membrane and then rearrange overtime (e.g., moving from the top of the cell to the bottom) (Fenix et al., eLife 2018). With that said, we do agree with the reviewer that a study of sarcomere assembly in the context of cardiac myocyte differentiation would be a fascinating direction for future studies, and we think sarcApp could facilitate such studies.

      6) The authors mentioned that the myofibrils of Z-line, titin, and M-line were randomly oriented after Blebbistatin treatments. The myofibrils were randomly oriented for titin and M-line. However, the orientation of Z-line after 50µM Blebbistatin treatment was not necessarily random, only the orientation after 100µM Blebbistatin treatment was randomized. The authors might consider changing bar graph to other types of charts if the orientation was really randomized after quantification.

      We find that the bar chart is the most informative to us, but users can consider other types of charts in their analyses.

      7) It is recommended that the authors include images staining ACTN2 at lower magnifications (Figure 1A, 1C). With current images, it is true that yoU-Net can separate Z-lines from Z-bodies yet it is difficult to tell if yoU-Net can still distinguish Z-lines from Z-bodies with larger images or it only applies to a small portion of the image.

      The yoU-Net can distinguish Z-Lines from Z-Bodies with images of any size, as image size (height vs. width in pixels) does not affect how binarization occurs. During binarization, the only pixel requirement is that the width and height are divisible by 8 (for downsampling purposes). Usually this is not the case with raw images, so the image borders are slightly cropped to make them usable. In terms of resolution, we recommend using 60X-100X objectives on confocal or superresolution data for the clearest results. We have, however, successfully binarized deconvolved widefield images at 100X as well.

      8) The authors mentioned that the knockdown of MYH7 did not affect Z-lines and M-lines; however, the structures of ACTN2, myomesin, and titin appeared more organized as compared to those in control.

      We agree that the sarcomeres and myofibrils look slightly more organized, and did mean to state that the knockdown did not negatively affect Z-Lines and M-Lines and have updated the manuscript to be more accurate.

      9) Please provide the merge images for Fig. 4D, 4E, 6B

      The merge images for Fig. 4D, 4E, and 6B are included with the original images requested above (point 3)

      10) In the text, they described" "antibodies to the titin I-band localize to both MSFs and sarcomeres in hiCMs (Figure 4A). Titin forms ring-like structures around the Z-Bodies of MSFs that are closer to the apparent sarcomere transition point (Figure 4A)" However, based on the antibody information they provided, it is not explicitly recognized for N-or C-terminus TITIN. Please provide TTN N-terminus or TTN-C terminus co-stainings with ACTN2 antibody to understand which part of TTN together with ACTN2 forms a Z-Body.

      The TTN antibody is an N-terminal antibody localizing to the I-Band region of sarcomeres. We agree with the reviewer that a more thorough study of titin will be of interest and we are currently undertaking such a study. However, this is a methods paper presenting a tool. While some of the data we present does point to mechanistic hypotheses, it is beyond the scope of this study to fully characterize titin during sarcomere assembly.

      11) TITIN doublet was used to indicate a sarcomere in Fig. 4C-D. Moreover, they also used another combination (myomesin and F-ACTIN) to label a sarcomere in Fig. 6D. Can they compare the difference between these two methods or by using these two methods (TITIN doublet) and (myomesin and F-ACTIN), how is the average length of sarcomere? Will the sarcomere length be the same?

      We noted in the manuscript that due to the organization of titin doublets (wrapping around the ends of Z-Lines) that the average titin doublet will be approximately 0.3 um longer than the ZLine. We did not expect to see a difference in lengths of myomesin M-Lines and mature actinin2 Z-Lines and indeed do not see major differences in the average lengths (between 2.0 and 2.5 um in 24 hour control cells)

      12) They used siRNA method to knockdown MYH6, MYH7 and MYOM and concluded that the knockdown of these genes did not affect the Z-line assembly. Even though they showed very nice knockdown efficiency of these proteins, they should (1) co-stain MYH6/TITIN/actinin2 and MYH6/ myomesin /actinin2 for Fig. 7C. (2) MYH7/TITIN/actinin2 and MYH7/ myomesin /actinin2 for Fig. 7I. (3) MYOM1/TITIN/actinin2 and MYOM2/TITIN/actinin2 for Fig. 8A. (4) MYH7/MYOM1 and MYH7/MYOM2 for Fig. 8H to make sure the cells they measured were truly knockdownpositive cells,

      The antibodies for alpha and beta myosin are not very efficient for immunofluorescence, and work best for western blots. We decided also to choose a random subset of the cells on the dish to be sure to eliminate any risk of cherry-picking. While imaging cells on the dish, we looked only at the DAPI nuclear channel and selected 50 cells minimum per dish with only this channel, then imaged the other channels.

      Minor comments:

      1) Well-organized sarcomere structure on DMSO treated cells in Fig.5A and Fig. 6A, but it was disarray in Fig. S3M. Why?

      Figure S3 shows hiCMs that have only been allowed to spread for 6 hours, which have not formed mature sarcomeres yet, hence the disarray.

      2) Fig 1A, Fig2B: please label the name of the antibody, not the actin filament

      We used phalloidin labelling here, which marks actin filaments. We have updated the figure legends to be more clear. Thank you!

      3) Fig. 7I: actinin2 instead of actinin

      Thank you for catching this! We have fixed it.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Testing the app using images shot by other microscopy systems, magnifications, and cardiomyocytes from other species, as noted in the public review above, should make the app even more wildly useful.

      A more formal head-to-head comparison with other approaches will be more convincing in showing the new tool is superior

      I also think that a more detailed protocol for using the app will help other investigators.

      The app counts and measures many features, but it is not always clear how and using what algorithm these are measured. Including these details in a protocol or even as comments in the code will be very helpful for others.

      The protocol found on the public GitHub for the app will help other investigators to download, use, and understand the application. We have received contact from researchers who have been able to use the application without assistance from us, which is a good sign that the application is user-friendly and that the online protocol is sufficient.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      The reviewers praised multiple aspects of our study. Reviewer 1 noted that “the work aligns well with current research trends and will greatly interest researchers in the field.” Reviewer 2 highlighted the unique capability of our imaging approach, which “allows for investigation of the heterogeneity of response across individual dopamine axons, unlike other common approaches such as fiber photometry.” Reviewer 3 commented that “the experiments are beautifully executed” and “are revealing novel information about how aversive and rewarding stimuli is encoded at the level of individual axons, in a way that has not been done before.”

      In addition to the positive feedback, the reviewers also provided useful criticisms and suggestions, some of which may not be fully addressed in a single study. For instance, questions regarding whether dopamine axons encode the valence or specific identity of the stimuli, or the most salient aspects of the environment, remain open. At the same time, as all the reviewers agreed, our report on the diversity of dopamine axonal responses using a novel imaging design introduces significant new insights to the neuroscience community. Following the reviewers’ recommendations, we have refrained from making interpretations that could be perceived as overinterpretation, such as concluding that “dopamine axons are involved in aversive processing.” This has necessitated extensive revisions, including modifying the title of our manuscript to make clear that the novelty of our work is revealing ‘functional diversity’ using our new imaging approach.

      Below, we respond to the reviewers’ comments point by point.

      eLife assessment

      This valuable study shows that distinct midbrain dopaminergic axons in the medial prefrontal cortex respond to aversive and rewarding stimuli and suggest that they are biased toward aversive processing. The use of innovative microprism based two-photon calcium imaging to study single axon heterogeneity is solid, although the experimental design could be optimized to distinguish aversive valence from stimulus salience and identity in this dopamine projection. This work will be of interest to neuroscientists working on neuromodulatory systems, cortical function and decision making.

      Reviewer #1

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, Abe and colleagues employ in vivo 2-photon calcium imaging of dopaminergic axons in the mPFC. The study reveals that these axons primarily respond to unconditioned aversive stimuli (US) and enhance their responses to initially-neutral stimuli after classical association learning. The manuscript is well-structured and presents results clearly. The utilization of a refined prism-based imaging technique, though not entirely novel, is well-implemented. The study's significance lies in its contribution to the existing literature by offering single-axon resolution functional insights, supplementing prior bulk measurements of calcium or dopamine release. Given the current focus on neuromodulator neuron heterogeneity, the work aligns well with current research trends and will greatly interest researchers in the field.

      However, I would like to highlight that the authors could further enhance their manuscript by addressing study limitations more comprehensively and by providing essential details to ensure the reproducibility of their research. In light of this, I have a number of comments and suggestions that, if incorporated, would significantly contribute to the manuscript's value to the field.

      Strengths:

      • Descriptive.

      • Utilization of a well-optimized prism-based imaging method.

      • Provides valuable single-axon resolution functional observations, filling a gap in existing literature.

      • Timely contribution to the study of neuromodulator neuron heterogeneity.

      We thank the reviewer for this positive assessment.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) It's important to fully discuss the fact that the measurements were carried out only on superficial layers (30-100um), while major dopamine projections target deep layers of the mPFC as discussed in the cited literature (Vander Weele et al., 2018) and as illustrated in FigS1B,C. This limitation should be explicitly acknowledged and discussed in the manuscript, especially given the potential functional heterogeneity among dopamine neurons in different layers. This potential across-layer heterogeneity could also be the cause of discrepancy among past recording studies with different measurement modalities. Also, mentioning technical limitations would be informative. For example: how deep the authors can perform 2p-imaging through the prism? was the "30-100um" maximum depth the authors could get?

      Thank you for pointing out this important issue about layer differences.

      It is possible that the mesocortial pathway has layer-specific channels, with some neurons targeting supra granular layers and others targeting infragranular ones. Alternatively, it is also plausible that the axons of the same neurons branch into both superficial and deep layers. This is a critical issue that has not been investigated in anatomical studies and will require single-cell labeling of dopamine neurons (Matsuda et al 2009 and Aransay et al 2015). We now discuss this issue in the Discussion.

      As for the imaging depth of 30–100 m, we were unable to visualize deeper axons in a live view mode. Our imaging system has already been optimized to detect weak signals (e.g., we have employed an excitation wavelength of 980 nm, dispersion compensation, and a hybrid photodetector). It is possible that future studies using improved imaging approaches may be able to visualize deeper layers. Importantly, sparse axons in the supragranular layers are advantageous in detecting weak signals; dense labeling of axons would increase the background fluorescence relative to signals. We now reference this layer issue in the Results and Discussion sections.

      (2) In the introduction, it seems that the authors intended to refer to Poulin et al. 2018 regarding molecular/anatomical heterogeneity of dopamine neurons, but they inadvertently cited Poulin et al. 2016 (a general review on scRNAseq). Additionally, the statement that "dopamine neurons that project to the PFC show unique genetic profiles (line 85)" requires clarification, as Poulin et al. 2018 did not specifically establish this point. Instead, they found at least the Vglut2/Cck+ population projects into mPFC, and they did not reject the possibility of other subclasses projecting to mPFC. Rather, they observed denser innervation with DAT-cre, suggesting that non-Vglut2/Cck populations would also project to mPFC. Discuss the potential molecular heterogeneity among mPFC dopamine axons in light of the sampling limitation mentioned earlier.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. Genetic profiles of PFC-projecting DA neurons are still being investigated, so describing them as “unique” was misleading. We have edited the Introduction accordingly, and now discuss this issue in detail in the Discussion.

      (3) I find the data presented in Figure 2 to be odd. Firstly, the latency of shock responses in the representative axons (right panels of G, H) is consistently very long - nearly 500ms. It raises a query whether this is a biological phenomenon or if it stems from a potential technical artifact, possibly arising from an issue in synchronization between the 2-photon imaging and stimulus presentation. My reservations are compounded by the notable absence of comprehensive information concerning the synchronization of the experimental system in the method section.

      The synchronization of the stimulus and data acquisition is accomplished at a sub-millisecond resolution. We use a custom-made MATLAB program that sends TTL commands to standard imaging software (ThorImage or ScanImage) and a stimulator for electrical shocks. All events are recorded as analogue inputs to a different DAQ to ensure synchronization. We have provided additional details regarding the configuration in the Methods section.

      We consider that the long latency of shock response is biological. For instance, a similar long latency was found after electrical shock in a photometry imaging study (Kim, …, Deisseroth, 2016).

      Secondly, there appear to be irregularities in Panel J. While the authors indicate that "Significant axons were classified as either reward-preferring (cyan) or aversive-preferring (magenta), based on whether the axons are above or below the unity line of the reward/aversive scatter plot (Line 566)," a cyan dot slightly but clearly deviates above the unity line (around coordinates (x, y) = (20, 21)). This needs clarification. Lastly, when categorizing axons for analysis of conditioning data in Fig3 (not Fig2), the authors stated "The color-coded classification (cyan/magenta) was based on k-means clustering, using the responses before classical conditioning (Figure 2J)". I do not understand why the authors used different classification methods for two almost identical datasets.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out these insufficient descriptions. We classified the axons using k-means clustering, and the separation of the two clusters happened to roughly coincide with the unity line of the reward/aversive scatter plot in Fig 2J. In other words, we did not use the unity line to classify the data points (which is why the color separation of the histogram is not at 45 degrees). We have clarified this point in the Methods section.

      (4) In connection with Point 3, conducting separate statistical analyses for aversive and rewarding stimuli would offer a fairer approach. This could potentially reveal a subset of axons that display responses to both aversive and appetitive stimuli, aligning more accurately with the true underlying dynamics. Moreover, the characterization of Figure 2J as a bimodal distribution while disregarding the presence of axons responsive to both aversive and appetitive cues seems somewhat arbitrary and circular logic. A more inclusive consideration of this dual-responsive population could contribute to a more comprehensive interpretation.

      We also attempted k-means clustering with additional dimensions (e.g., temporal domains as shown in Fig. 3I, J), but no additional clusters were evident. We note that the lack of other clusters does not exclude the possibility of their existence, which may only become apparent with a substantial increase in the number of samples. In the current report, we present the clusters that were the easiest/simplest for us to identify.

      Additionally, we have revised our manuscript to reflect that many axons respond to both reward and aversive stimuli, and that aversive-preferring axons do not exclusively respond to the aversive stimulus.

      (5) The contrast in initialization to novel cues between aversive and appetitive axons mirrors findings in other areas, such as the tail-of-striatum (TS) and ventral striatum (VS) projecting dopamine neurons (Menegas et al., 2017, not 2018). You might consider citing this very relevant study and discussing potential collateral projections between mPFC and TS or VS.

      Thank you for pointing this out. We have now included Menegas et al., 2017, and also discuss the possibility of collaterals to these areas. In addition, we also referred to Azcorra et al., 2023 - this was published after our initial submission.

      (6) The use of correlation values (here >0.65) to group ROIs into axons is common but should be justified based on axon density in the FOV and imaging quality. It's important to present the distribution of correlation values and demonstrate the consistency of results with varying cut-off values. Also, provide insights into the reliability of aversive/appetitive classifications for individual ROIs with high correlations. Importantly, if you do the statistical testing and aversive/appetitive classifications for individual ROIs with above-threshold high correlation (to be grouped into the same axon), do they always fall into the same category? How many false positives/false negatives are observed?


      "Our results remained similar for different correlation threshold values (Line 556)" (data not shown) is obsolete.

      We have conducted additional analysis using correlation values 0.5 and 0.3 that resulted in a smaller number of axon terminals. In essence, the relationship between reward responses and aversive responses remained very similar to Fig. 2J, K.

      Author response image 1.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study aims to address existing differences in the literature regarding the extent of reward versus aversive dopamine signaling in the prefrontal cortex. To do so, the authors chose to present mice with both a reward and an aversive stimulus during different trials each day. The authors used high spatial resolution two-photon calcium imaging of individual dopaminergic axons in the medial PFC to characterize the response of these axons to determine the selectivity of responses in unique axons. They also paired the reward (water) and an aversive stimulus (tail shock) with auditory tones and recorded across 12 days of associative learning.

      The authors find that some axons respond to both reward and aversive unconditioned stimuli, but overall, there is a strong preference to respond to aversive stimuli consistent with expectations from prior studies that used other recording methods. The authors find that both of their two auditory stimuli initially drive responses in axons, but that with training axons develop more selective responses for the shock associated tone indicating that associative learning led to changes in these axon's responses. Finally, the authors use anticipatory behaviors during the conditioned stimuli and facial expressions to determine stimulus discrimination and relate dopamine axons signals with this behavioral evidence of discrimination. This study takes advantage of cutting-edge imaging approaches to resolve the extent to which dopamine axons in PFC respond appetitive or aversive stimuli. They conclude that there is a strong bias to respond to the aversive tail shock in most axons and weaker more sparse representation of water reward.

      Strengths:

      The strength of this study is the imaging approach that allows for investigation of the heterogeneity of response across individual dopamine axons, unlike other common approaches such as fiber photometry which provide a measure of the average population activity. The use of appetitive and aversive stimuli to probe responses across individual axons is another strength.

      We thank the reviewer for this positive assessment.

      Weaknesses:

      A weakness of this study is the design of the associative conditioning paradigm. The use of only a single reward and single aversive stimulus makes it difficult to know whether these results are specific to the valence of the stimuli versus the specific identity of the stimuli. Further, the reward presentations are more numerous than the aversive trials making it unclear how much novelty and habituation account for results. Moreover, the training seems somewhat limited by the low number of trials and did not result in strong associative conditioning. The lack of omission responses reported may reflect weak associative conditioning. Finally, the study provides a small advance in our understanding of dopamine signaling in the PFC and lacks evidence for if and what might be the consequence of these axonal responses on PFC dopamine concentrations and PFC neuron activity.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestions.

      We agree that interpreting the response change during classical conditioning is not straightforward. Although the reward and aversive stimuli we employed are commonly used in the field, future studies with more sophisticated paradigms will be necessary to address whether dopamine axons encode the valence of the stimuli, the specific identity of the stimuli, or novelty and habituation. In our current manuscript, we refrain from making a conclusion that distinct groups of neurons encode different valances. In fact, many axons respond to both stimuli, at different ratios. We have removed descriptions that may suggest exclusive coding of reward or aversive processing. Additionally, we have extensively discussed possible interpretations.

      In terms of the strength of the conditioning association, behavioral results indicated that the learning plateaued – anticipatory behaviors did not increase during the last two phases when the conditioned span was divided into six phases (Figure 3–figure supplement 1).

      Our goal in the current manuscript is to provide new insight into the functional diversity of dopamine axons in the mPFC. Investigating the impact of dopamine axons on local dopamine concentration and neural activity in the mPFC is important but falls beyond the scope of our current study. In particular, given the functional diversity of dopamine axons, interpreting bulk optogenetic or chemogenetic axonal manipulation experiments would not be straightforward. As suggested, measuring the dopamine concentration through two-photon imaging of dopamine sensors and monitoring the activity of dopamine recipient neurons (e.g., D1R- or D2R-expressing neurons) is a promising approach that we plan to undertake in the near future.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors image dopamine axons in medial prefrontal cortex (mPFC) using microprism-mediated two-photon calcium imaging. They image these axons as mice learn that two auditory cues predict two distinct outcomes, tailshock or water delivery. They find that some axons show a preference for encoding of the shock and some show a preference for encoding of water. The authors report a greater number of dopamine axons in mPFC that respond to shock. Across time, the shock-preferring axons begin to respond preferentially to the cue predicting shock, while there is a less pronounced increase in the water-responsive axons that acquire a response to the water-predictive cue (these axons also increase non-significantly to the shock-predictive cue). These data lead the authors to argue that dopamine axons in mPFC preferentially encode aversive stimuli.

      Strengths:

      The experiments are beautifully executed and the authors have mastered an impressively complex technique. Specifically, they are able to image and track individual dopamine axons in mPFC across days of learning. This technique is used the way it should be: the authors isolate distinct dopamine axons in mPFC and characterize their encoding preferences and how this evolves across learning of cue-shock and cue-water contingencies. Thus, these experiments are revealing novel information about how aversive and rewarding stimuli is encoded at the level of individual axons, in a way that has not been done before. This is timely and important.

      We thank the reviewer for this positive assessment.

      Weaknesses:

      The overarching conclusion of the paper is that dopamine axons preferentially encode aversive stimuli. This is prevalent in the title, abstract, and throughout the manuscript. This is fundamentally confounded. As the authors point out themselves, the axonal response to stimuli is sensitive to outcome magnitude (Supp Fig 3). That is, if you increase the magnitude of water or shock that is delivered, you increase the change in fluorescence that is seen in the axons. Unsurprisingly, the change in fluorescence that is seen to shock is considerably higher than water reward.

      We agree that the interpretation of our results is not straightforward. Our current manuscript now focuses on our strength, which is reporting the functional diversity of dopamine axons. Therefore, we avoid using the word ‘encode’ when describing the response.

      We believe that our results could reconcile the apparent discrepancy as to why some previous studies reported only aversive responses while others reported reward responses. In particular, if the reward volume were very small, the reward response could go undetected.

      Further, when the mice are first given unexpected water delivery and have not yet experienced the aversive stimuli, over 40% of the axons respond [yet just a few lines below the authors write: "Previous studies have demonstrated that the overall dopamine release at the mPFC or the summed activity of mPFC dopamine axons exhibits a strong response to aversive stimuli (e.g., tail shock), but little to rewards", which seems inconsistent with their own data].

      We always recorded the reward and aversive response together, which might have confused the reviewer. Therefore, there is no inconsistency in our data. We have clarified our methods and reasoning accordingly.

      Given these aspects of the data, it could be the case that the dopamine axons in mPFC encodes different types of information and delegates preferential processing to the most salient outcome across time.

      This is certainly an exciting interpretation, so we have included it in our discussion. Meanwhile, ‘the most salient outcome’ alone cannot fully capture the diverse response patterns of the dopaminergic axons, particularly reward-preferring axons. We discuss our findings in more detail in the revised manuscript.

      The use of two similar sounding tones (9Khz and 12KHz) for the reward and aversive predicting cues are likely to enhance this as it requires a fine-grained distinction between the two cues in order to learn effectively. There is considerable literature on mPFC function across species that would support such a view. Specifically, theories of mPFC function (in particular prelimbic cortex, which is where the axon images are mostly taken) generally center around resolution of conflict in what to respond, learn about, and attend to. That is, mPFC is important for devoting the most resources (learning, behavior) to the most relevant outcomes in the environment. This data then, provides a mechanism for this to occur in mPFC. That is, dopamine axons signal to the mPFC the most salient aspects of the environment, which should be preferentially learned about and responded towards. This is also consistent with the absence of a negative prediction error during omission: the dopamine axons show increases in responses during receipt of unexpected outcomes, but do not encode negative errors. This supports a role for this projection in helping to allocate resources to the most salient outcomes and their predictors, and not learning per se. Below are a just few references from the rich literature on mPFC function (some consider rodent mPFC analogous to DLPFC, some mPFC), which advocate for a role in this region in allocating attention and cognitive resources to most relevant stimuli, and do not indicate preferential processing of aversive stimuli.

      Distinguishing between 9 kHz and 12 kHz sound tones may not be that difficult, considering anticipatory licking and running are differentially manifested. In addition, previous studies have shown that mice can distinguish between two sound tones when they are separated by 7% (de Hoz and Nelken 2014). Nonetheless, we agree with the attractive interpretation that “the mPFC devotes the most resources (learning, behavior) to the most relevant outcomes in the environment” and that dopamine is a mechanism for this. Therefore, we discuss this interpretation in the revised text.

      References:

      (1) Miller, E. K., & Cohen, J. D. (2001). An integrative theory of prefrontal cortex function. Annual review of neuroscience, 24(1), 167-202.

      (2) Bissonette, G. B., Powell, E. M., & Roesch, M. R. (2013). Neural structures underlying set-shifting: roles of medial prefrontal cortex and anterior cingulate cortex. Behavioural brain research, 250, 91101.

      (3) Desimone, R., & Duncan, J. (1995). Neural mechanisms of selective visual attention. Annual review of neuroscience, 18(1), 193-222.

      (4) Sharpe, M. J., Stalnaker, T., Schuck, N. W., Killcross, S., Schoenbaum, G., & Niv, Y. (2019). An integrated model of action selection: distinct modes of cortical control of striatal decision making. Annual review of psychology, 70, 53-76.

      (5) Ridderinkhof, K. R., Ullsperger, M., Crone, E. A., & Nieuwenhuis, S. (2004). The role of the medial frontal cortex in cognitive control. science, 306(5695), 443-447.

      (6) Nee, D. E., Kastner, S., & Brown, J. W. (2011). Functional heterogeneity of conflict, error, taskswitching, and unexpectedness effects within medial prefrontal cortex. Neuroimage, 54(1), 528-540.

      (7) Isoda, M., & Hikosaka, O. (2007). Switching from automatic to controlled action by monkey medial frontal cortex. Nature neuroscience, 10(2), 240-248.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Specific Suggestions and Questions on the Methods Section:

      In general, the methods part is not well documented and sometimes confusing. Thus, as it stands, it hinders reproducible research. Specific suggestions/questions are listed in the following section.

      (1) Broussard et al. 2018 introduced axon-GCaMP6 instead of axon-jGCaMP8m. The authors should provide details about the source of this material. If it was custom-made, a description of the subcloning process would be appreciated. Additionally, consider depositing sequence information or preferably the plasmid itself. Furthermore, the introduction of the jGCaMP8 series by Zhang, Rozsa, et al. 2023 should be acknowledged and referenced in your manuscript.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We have now included details on how we prepared the axon-jGCaMP8m, which was based on plasmids available at Addgene. Additionally, we have deposited our construct to Addgene ( https://www.addgene.org/216533/ ). We have also cited Janelia’s report on jGCaMP8, Zhang et al.

      (2) The authors elaborate on the approach taken for experimental synchronization. Specifically, how was the alignment achieved between 2-photon imaging, treadmill recordings, aversive/appetitive stimuli, and videography? It would be important to document the details of the software and hardware components employed for generating TTLs that trigger the pump, stimulator, cameras, etc.

      We have now included a more detailed explanation about the timing control. We utilize a custommade MATLAB program that sends TTL square waves and analogue waves via a single National Instruments board (USB-6229) to control two-photon image acquisition, behavior camera image acquisition, water syringe movement, current flow from a stimulator, and sound presentation. We also continuously recorded at 30 kHz via a separate National Instrument board (PCIe-6363) the frame timing of two-photon imaging, the frame timing of a behavior camera, copies of command waves (sent to the syringe pump, the stimulator, and the speaker), and signals from the treadmill corresponding to running speed.

      (3) The information regarding the cameras utilized in the study presents some confusion. In one instance, you mention, "To monitor licking behavior, the face of each mouse was filmed with a camera at 60 Hz (CM3-U3-13Y3M-CS, FLIR)" (Line 488). However, there's also a reference to filming facial expressions using an infrared web camera (Line 613). Could you clarify whether the FLIR camera (which is an industrial CMOS not a webcam) is referred to as a webcam? Alternatively, if it's a different camera being discussed, please provide product details, including pixel numbers and frame rate for clarity.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. This was a mistake on our end. The camera used in the current project was a CM3-U3-13Y3M-CS, not a web camera. We have now corrected this.

      (4) Please provide more information about the methodology employed for lick detection. Specifically, did the authors solely rely on videography for this purpose? If so, why was an electrical (or capacitive) detector not used? It would provide greater accuracy in detecting licking.

      Lick detection was performed offline based on videography, using DeepLabCut. As licking occurs at a frequency of ~6.5 Hz (Xu, …, O’Connor Nature Neurosci, 2022), the movement can be detected at a frame rate of 60 Hz. Initially, we used both a lick sensor and videography. However, we favored videography because it could potentially provide non-binary information.

      Other Minor Points:

      (5) Ensure consistency in the citation format; both Vander Weele et al. 2018 and Weele et al. 2019, share the same first author.

      Thank you for pointing this out. Endnote processes the first author’s name differently depending on the journal. We fixed the error manually. The first paper (2018) is an original research paper, and the second one (2019) is a review about how dopamine modulates aversive processing in the mPFC. We cited the second one in three instances where we mentioned review papers.

      (6) The distinction between "dashed vs dotted lines" in Figure 3K and 3M appears to be very confusing. Please consider providing a clearer visualization/labeling to mitigate this confusion.

      We have now changed the line styles.

      (7) Additionally plotting mean polar angles of aversive/appetitive axons as vectors in the Cartesian scatter plots (2J, 3I,J) would make interpretation easier.

      We have now made this change to Figures 2, 3, 4.

      (8) Data and codes should be shared in a public database. This is important for reproducible research and we believe that "available from the corresponding author upon reasonable request" is outdated language.

      We have uploaded the data to GitHub, https://github.com/pharmedku/2024-elife-da-axon.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Authors don't show which mouse each axon data comes from making it hard to know if differences arise from inter-mouse differences vs differences in axons. The best way to address this point is to show similar plots as Figure 2J & K but broken down by mouse to shows whether each mouse had evidence of these two clusters.

      We have now made this change to Figure 2-figure supplement 3.

      (2) Line 166: Should this sentence point to panels 2F, G, H rather than 2I which doesn't show a shock response?

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We have fixed the incorrect labels.

      Line 195: The population level bias to aversive stimuli was shown previously using photometry so it is not justified to say "for the first time" regarding this statement.

      We have adjusted this sentences so the claim of ”for the first time” is not associated with the population-level bias.

      (4) The paper lacks a discussion of the potential role that novelty plays in the amplitude of the responses given that tail shocks occur less often that rewards. Is the amplitude of the first reward of the day larger than subsequent rewards? Would tail shock responses decay if they occurred in sequential trials?

      Following the reviewer's suggestion, we conducted a comparison of individual axonal responses to both conditioned and unconditioned stimuli across the first trial and subsequent trials. Our findings reveal a notable trend: aversive-preferring axons exhibited attenuation in response to CSreward, yet enhancement in response to CSaversive. Conversely, the response of these axons to USreward was attenuated, with no significant change observed for USaversive. In contrast, reward-preferring axons displayed an invariable activity pattern from the initial trial, highlighting the functional diversity present within dopamine axons. This analysis has been integrated into Figure 3-figure supplement 4 and is elaborated upon in the Discussion section.

      (5) Fix typo in Figure 1 - supplement 1. Shift

      We have now corrected this. Thank you.

      (6) The methods section needs information about trial numbers. Please indicate how many trials were presented to each mouse per day.

      We have now added the information about trial numbers to the Methods section.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      In line with the public review, my recommendation is for the authors to remain as objective about their data as possible. There are many points in the manuscript where the authors seem to directly contradict their own data. For example, they first detail that dopamine axons respond to unexpected water rewards. Indeed, they find that there are 40% of dopamine axons that respond in this way. Then, a few paragraphs later they state: "Previous studies have demonstrated that the overall dopamine release at the mPFC or the summed activity of mPFC dopamine axons exhibits a strong response to aversive stimuli (e.g., tail shock), but little to rewards". As detailed above, I do not think these data support an idea that dopamine axons in mPFC preferentially encode aversive outcomes. If the authors wanted to examine a role for mPFC in preferential encoding of aversive stimuli, you would first have to equate the outcomes by magnitude and then compare how the axons acquire preferences across time. Alternatively, a prediction of a more general process that I detail above would predict that you could give mice two rewards that differ in magnitude (e.g., lots of food vs. small water) and you would see the same results that the authors have seen here (i.e., a preference for the food, which is the larger and more salient outcome). Without other tests of how dopamine axons in mPFC respond to situations like this, I don't think any conclusion around mPFC in favoring aversive stimuli can be made.

      As suggested, we have made the current manuscript as objective as possible, removing interpretation aspects regarding what dopamine axons encode and emphasizing their functional diversity. In particular, we remove the word ‘encode’ when describing the response of dopamine axons.

      Although it may have appeared unclear, there was no contradiction within our data regarding the response to reward and aversive stimuli. We have now improved the readability of the Results and Methods sections. Concerning the interpretation of what exactly the mPFC dopamine axons encode, we have rewritten the discussion to be as objective about our data as possible, as suggested. We also have edited our title and abstract accordingly. Meanwhile, we wish to emphasize that our reward and aversive stimuli are standard paradigms commonly used in the field. We believe, and all the reviewers agreed, that reporting the diversity of dopamine axonal responses with a novel imaging design constitutes new insight for the neuroscience community. Therefore, we have decided to leave the introduction of new behavioral tasks for future studies and instead expanded our discussion.

      As mentioned, I think the experiments are executed really well and the technological aspects of the authors' methods are impressive. However, there are also some aspects of the data presentation that would be improved. Some of the graphs took a considerable amount of effort to unpack. For example, Figure 4 is hard going. Is there a way to better illustrate the main points that this figure wants to convey? Some of this might be helped by a more complete description in the figure captions about what the data are showing. It would also be great to see how the response of dopamine axons changes across trial within a session to the shock and water-predictive cues. Supp Figure 1 should be in the main text with standard error and analyses across time. Clarifying these aspects of the data would make the paper more relevant and accessible to the field.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out that the legend of Figure 4 was incomplete. We have fixed it, along with improving the presentation of the figure. We have also prepared a new figure (Figure 3– figure supplement 4) to compare CSaversive and CSreward signals for the first and rest of the trials within daily sessions, revealing further functional diversity in dopamine axons. We have decided to keep Figure 1–figure supplement 2 as a figure supplement with an additional analysis, as another reviewer pointed out that the design is not completely new. Furthermore, as eLife readers can easily access figure supplements, we believe it is appropriate to maintain it in this way.

      Minor points:

      (1) What is the control period for the omission test? Was omission conducted for the shock?

      The control period for reward omission is a 2-second period just before the CS onset. We did not include shock omission, because a sufficient number of trials (> 6 trials) for the rare omission condition could not be achieved within a single day.

      (2) The authors should mention how similar the tones were that predicted water and shock.

      According to de Hoz and Nelken (2014), a frequency difference of 4–7% is enough for mice to discriminate between tones. In addition, anticipatory licking and running confirmed that the mice could discriminate between the frequencies. We have now included this information in the Discussion.

      (3) I realize the viral approach used in the current studies may not allow for an idea of where in VTA dopamine neurons are that project to mPFC- is there data in the literature that speak to this? Particularly important as we now know that there is considerable heterogeneity in dopamine neuronal responses, which is often captured by differences in medial/lateral position within VTA.

      Some studies have suggested that mesocortical dopamine neurons are located in the medial posterior VTA (e.g., Lammel et al., 2008). However, in mouse anterograde tracing, it is not possible to spatially confine the injection of conventional viruses/tracers. We now refer to Lammel et al., 2008 in the Introduction.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      HP1 plays a pivotal role in orchestrating chromatin packaging through the creation of biomolecular condensates. The existence of distinct homologs offers an intriguing avenue for investigating the interplay between genetic sequence and condensate formation. In this study, the authors conducted extensive coarse-grained simulations to delve into the phase separation behavior of HP1 paralogs. Additionally, the researchers delved into the captivating possibility of various HP1 paralogs co-localizing within assemblies composed of multiple components. Importantly, the study also delved into the critical role of DNA in finely tuning this complex process.

      Strengths:

      I applaud the authors for their methodical approach in conducting simulations aimed at dissecting the contributions of hinges, CTE, NTE, and folded regions. The comprehensive insights unveiled in Figure 3 compellingly substantiate the significance of these protein components in facilitating the process of phase separation.

      This systematic exploration has yielded several innovative revelations. Notably, the authors uncovered a nuanced interplay between the folded and disordered domains. Although disordered regions have traditionally been linked to driving phase separation through their capacity for forming multivalent interactions, the authors have demonstrated that the contribution of the CD cannot be overlooked, as it significantly impacts the saturation concentration.

      The outcomes of this study serve to elucidate the intricate mechanisms and regulatory aspects governing HP1 LLPS.

      Weaknesses:

      The authors do not provide an assessment of the quantitative precision of their model. To illustrate, HP1a is anticipated to undergo phase separation primarily under low salt concentrations. Does the model effectively capture this sensitivity to salt conditions? Regrettably, the specific salt conditions employed in the simulations are not explicitly stated. While I anticipate that numerous findings in the manuscript remain valid, it could be beneficial to acknowledge potential limitations tied to the simulations. For instance, might the absence of quantitative precision impact certain predictions, such as the CD's influence on phase separation?

      We thank the reviewer for their kind feedback and for highlighting the essential mechanistic insights obtained from our study. We have addressed the concerns raised by the reviewer below, and the specific amendments made in the manuscript are also delineated.

      We appreciate the reviewer's comment on our model. Our coarse-grained (CG) physics-based model integrates electrostatic and short-range interactions, parametrized based on the Urry hydrophobicity scale. This approach effectively bridges the timescale gap between simulation and experiment, offering a transferable framework to compute protein phase diagrams in temperature-concentration space that can be compared to experimental phase behavior (1). Additionally, the vdW contact probability per residue correlation between AA and CG simulations (Fig. S1 f-h) underscores our model’s capability to uncover the mechanistic insights into the phase separation of HP1 paralogs. Despite its simplicity and widespread adoption for studying sequence-dependent phase separation in biomolecular condensates, we recognize that our CG model does not yet fully replicate experimental observations or the nuanced effects of local secondary structures on phase-separation propensities. We are actively refining our methods and exploring new strategies to enhance the accuracy and efficiency of CG models for the study of biological phase separation.

      In assessing the influence of salt on the LLPS of HP1α, we note that Wang et al. (2) demonstrated that HP1α can undergo LLPS at a low salt concentration (50 mM KCl). Furthermore, Wohl et al. (3) showed that the CG HPS (Kapcha-Rossky) model can capture the salt-dependent LLPS behavior through the electrostatic screening in HP1a, a Drosophila homolog of human HP1α. In our CG model, the salt concentration is captured by the DebyeHuckle term with tunable screening lengths, which allows for the simulations of salt-dependent effects in the low salt regime. We have added Figure S5 to illustrate the influence of salt on the LLPS propensity of HP1α. In the low-salt regime (50 mM), the Csat of HP1α was reduced by twofold compared to that at 100 mM. Increasing the salt concentration to 150 mM raised the Csat and started destabilizing the condensate. In the high salt regime (200500 mM), HP1α did not undergo phase separation, consistent with the experimental observations (2, 4–6).

      Author response image 1.

      Salt-dependent effects on the LLPS of HP1α homodimer. (a, b) Density profiles and snapshots of HP1α homodimer simulation with the box dimensions of 170x170x1190 Å3 at differing salt concentrations, 50, 100, 150, 200, 250, and 500 mM, respectively. The simulations were conducted at 320 K using the HPS-Urry model.

      However, the primary objectives of our study are to elucidate the molecular interactions and to delineate the domain contributions that dictate the distinct phase-separation behaviors of the HP1 paralogs. To this end, we standardized our simulation conditions to a physiological salt concentration of 100 mM for all paralog constructs, facilitating a direct comparison and enabling physiologically relevant predictions, including those for the CD domain. We have added the salt concentration used in the CG simulations in the Materials and Methods section, relevant figure captions, and the following sentence in the third paragraph of the Discussions section to improve clarity.

      “…Our CG simulations corroborate these experimental observations, indicating that a low salt concentration (50 mM) promotes the LLPS of HP1α. Raising the salt concentration weakens the electrostatic interactions and increases the Csat, eventually precluding HP1α’s phase separation at high salt regimes (200-500 mM) (Fig. S5).”

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      In this paper, Phan et al. investigate the properties of human HP1 paralogs, their interactions and abilities to undergo liquid-liquid phase separation. For this, they use a coarse-grained computational approach (validated with additional all-atom simulations) which allows to explore complex mixtures. Matching (wet-lab) experimental results, HP1 beta (HP1b) exhibits different properties from HP1 alpha and gamma (HP1a,g), in that it does not phase separate. Using domain switch experiments, the authors determine that the more negatively charged hinge in HP1b, compared to HP1a and HP1g, is mainly responsible for this effect. Exploring heterotypic complexes, mixtures between HP1 subtypes and DNA, the authors further show that HP1a can serve as a scaffold for HP1b to enter into condensed phases and that DNA can further stabilize phase separated compartments. Most interestingly, they show that a multicomponent mixture containing DNA, and HP1a and HP1b generates spatial separation between the HP1 paralogs: due to increased negative charge of DNA within the condensates, HP1b is pushed out and accumulates at the phase boundary. This represents an example how complex assemblies could form in the cell.

      Overall, this is purely computational work, which however builds on extensive experimental results (including from the authors). The methods showcase how coarse-grained models can be employed to generate and test hypotheses how proteins can condense. Applied to HP1 proteins, the results from this tour-de-force study are consistent and convincing, within the experimental constraints. Moreover, they generate further models to test experimentally, in particular in light of multicomponent mixtures.

      There are, of course, some limitations to these models.

      First, the CG models employed probably will not be able to pick up more complex structure-driven interactions (i.e. specific binding of a peptide in a protein cleft, including defined H-bonds, or induced structural elements). Some of those interactions (i.e. beyond charge-charge or hydrophobics) may also play a role in HP1, and might be ignored here. There is also the question of specificity, i.e. how can diverse phases coexist in cells, when the only parameters are charge and hydrophobicity? Does the arrangement of charges in the NTD, hinges and CTDs matter or are only the average properties important?

      We thank the reviewer for the thoughtful comments. We also appreciate the opportunity to incorporate the feedback on the reviewer’s concerns below.

      We agree that the interaction picture becomes more sophisticated, and many interaction modes may be involved in the phase coexistence in the cell environment. However, due to system sizes and required sampling, studying LLPS at an atomistic resolution remains challenging with the current state-of-the-art computer hardware. Our approach employs the CG model to reduce the computational cost but still capture the predominant interactions at the residue level. We have added the plots (Fig. S1 f-h) to show the correlation of the vdW contact probability per residue for each paralog between AA and CG simulation. The Pearson correlation coefficient is approximately 0.86, suggesting a strong positive linear correlation in the contact propensity between AA and CG simulations.

      Author response image 2.

      Our sequence analysis reveals a high fraction of charged residues in HP1 paralogs, with Arg, Lys, Glu, and Asp constituting 39-45% of the total amino acid count in the sequence. This property may explain why the electrostatic interactions are predominantly involved in the phase-separation behaviors of HP1 paralogs. Our findings on electrostatically driven phase separation and co-localization of HP1 paralogs are consistent with experimental observations by Larson et al. and Keenen et al. (5, 6). Significantly, we observe that the charge patterning in the disordered regions (NTE, hinge, and CTE) plays a critical role in the LLPS of HP1 paralogs, as articulated in the second paragraph of the Discussions section. Modifying this charge patterning, such as by phosphorylating serine residues in HP1α, excising the HP1α CTE, or substituting four acidic residues with basic ones in the HP1β hinge, can profoundly augment the LLPS of these proteins (4, 5, 7). Our in silico molecular details, complemented by in vitro observations, lay a solid foundation for future experiments. These future investigations may delve deeper into the specificity of interactions and the role of structural elements in modulating HP1 phase separation.

      Second, the authors fix CSD-CSD dimers, whereas these interactions are expected to be quite dynamic. In the particular example of HP1 proteins, having dimerization equilibria may change the behavior of complex mixtures significantly, e.g. in view of the proposed accumulation of HP1b at a phase boundary. This point would warrant more discussion in the paper. Moreover, the biological plausibility of such a behavior would be interesting. Is there any experimental data supporting such assemblies?

      We appreciate the reviewer's insightful comment regarding the dynamic nature of CSD-CSD interactions in HP1 proteins. Our assumption of fixing CSD-CSD dimers is grounded on reported dissociation constant (Kd) values for HP1α and HP1β, which are within the nanomolar range, indicative of strong dimerization affinity (4, 8). While the precise Kd values for HP1γ are not available, a study has demonstrated that HP1γ dimerization is crucial for its interaction with chromatin, suggesting a similar strong dimerization tendency as its paralogs (9, 10). Furthermore, evidence from the literature underscores the dimeric functionality of HP1 paralogs facilitated by their ChromoShadow Domains (CSD), which are instrumental in forming stable genomic domains and engaging in crucial interactions within chromatin architecture (5, 6, 11).

      However, we acknowledge that despite the strong dimerization affinity, the CSD-CSD interactions exhibit dynamics, which may influence the behavior of complex mixtures, particularly at phase boundaries. A study by Nielsen et al. (12) shows that mammalian HP1 paralogs can interact directly with one another to form heterodimers. Moreover, the CSD-CSD interface has been shown to act as a hub for transient interactions with diverse binding partner proteins (5, 13). These experimental observations reflect the dynamic nature of CSD-CSD interactions. However, due to the computational constraints and the focus of our study, a simplified static model was employed to gain initial insights into the phase separation behaviors of HP1 paralogs. We believe that the dynamic nature of CSD-CSD interactions and its implications for phase behavior in complex mixtures form an exciting avenue for future computational and experimental studies.

      In light of the reviewer’s comment, we have expanded our discussion in the 6th paragraph of the Discussions Section:

      “... It is important to emphasize that our model is predicated on the assumption that HP1 proteins establish stable chromoshadow domain (CSD-CSD) dimers, a hypothesis supported by their Kd values being in the nanomolar range (13, 53). While this simplification serves as a useful starting point, it may not fully capture the dynamic nature of HP1 dimerization. Further computational and experimental studies are needed to understand better the behavior of the complex mixtures of HP1 paralogs, particularly at phase boundaries.”

      References: 1) R. M. Regy, J. Thompson, Y. C. Kim, J. Mittal, Improved coarse‐grained model for studying sequence dependent phase separation of disordered proteins. Protein Sci., doi: 10.1002/pro.4094 (2021).

      2) L. Wang, Y. Gao, X. Zheng, C. Liu, S. Dong, R. Li, G. Zhang, Y. Wei, H. Qu, Y. Li, C. D. Allis, G. Li, H. Li, P. Li, Histone Modifications Regulate Chromatin Compartmentalization by Contributing to a Phase Separation Mechanism. Mol. Cell 76, 646-659.e6 (2019).

      3) S. Wohl, M. Jakubowski, W. Zheng, Salt-Dependent Conformational Changes of Intrinsically Disordered Proteins. J. Phys. Chem. Lett. 12, 6684–6691 (2021).

      4) C. Her, T. M. Phan, N. Jovic, U. Kapoor, B. E. Ackermann, A. Rizuan, Y. C. Kim, J. Mittal, G. T. Debelouchina, Molecular interactions underlying the phase separation of HP1α: role of phosphorylation, ligand and nucleic acid binding. Nucleic Acids Res., gkac1194 (2022).

      5) A. G. Larson, D. Elnatan, M. M. Keenen, M. J. Trnka, J. B. Johnston, A. L. Burlingame, D. A. Agard, S. Redding, G. J. Narlikar, Liquid droplet formation by HP1α suggests a role for phase separation in heterochromatin. Nature 547, 236–240 (2017).

      6) M. M. Keenen, D. Brown, L. D. Brennan, R. Renger, H. Khoo, C. R. Carlson, B. Huang, S. W. Grill, G. J. Narlikar, S. Redding, HP1 proteins compact dna into mechanically and positionally stable phase separated domains. eLife 10, 1–38 (2021).

      7) W. Qin, A. Stengl, E. Ugur, S. Leidescher, J. Ryan, M. C. Cardoso, H. Leonhardt, HP1β carries an acidic linker domain and requires H3K9me3 for phase separation. Nucleus 12, 44–57 (2021).

      8) S. V. Brasher, The structure of mouse HP1 suggests a unique mode of single peptide recognition by the shadow chromo domain dimer. EMBO J. 19, 1587–1597 (2000).

      9) X. Li, S. Wang, Y. Xie, H. Jiang, J. Guo, Y. Wang, Z. Peng, M. Hu, M. Wang, J. Wang, Q. Li, Y. Wang, Z. Liu, Deacetylation induced nuclear condensation of HP1γ promotes multiple myeloma drug resistance. Nat. Commun. 14, 1290 (2023).

      10) Y. Mishima, C. D. Jayasinghe, K. Lu, J. Otani, M. Shirakawa, T. Kawakami, H. Kimura, H. Hojo, P. Carlton, S. Tajima, I. Suetake, Nucleosome compaction facilitates HP1γ binding to methylated H3K9. Nucleic Acids Res. 43, 10200–10212 (2015).

      11) D. O. Trembecka-Lucas, J. W. Dobrucki, A heterochromatin protein 1 (HP1) dimer and a proliferating cell nuclear antigen (PCNA) protein interact in vivo and are parts of a multiprotein complex involved in DNA replication and DNA repair. Cell Cycle 11, 2170–2175 (2012).

      12) A. L. Nielsen, M. Oulad-Abdelghani, J. A. Ortiz, E. Remboutsika, P. Chambon, R. Losson, Heterochromatin formation in mammalian cells: Interaction between histones and HP1 Proteins. Mol. Cell 7, 729–739 (2001).

      13) A. Thiru, D. Nietlispach, H. R. Mott, M. Okuwaki, D. Lyon, P. R. Nielsen, M. Hirshberg, A. Verreault, N. V. Murzina, E. D. Laue, Structural basis of HP1/PXVXL motif peptide interactions and HP1 localisation to heterochromatin. EMBO J. 23, 489–499 (2004).

      14) P. Yu Chew, J. A. Joseph, R. Collepardo-Guevara, A. Reinhardt, Thermodynamic origins of two-component multiphase condensates of proteins. Chem. Sci. 14, 1820–1836 (2023).

      Recommendations for the authors:

      In this important work, the authors apply a residue-resolution protein coarse-grained model to investigate the differences in molecule dimensions and phase behaviour of three HP1 paralogs, HP1 paralog mixtures, and HP1/DNA mixtures. The simulations are well designed to investigate the impact of HP1 sequence on its phase behaviour. The work reveals that electrostatic interactions are a key determinant of HP1 paralog phase behaviour; hence advancing our understanding of the molecular mechanisms driving the phase separation behaviour of HP1 paralogs. Notably, the authors uncovered a nuanced interplay between the folded and disordered domains of HP1. Although disordered regions have traditionally been linked to driving phase separation through their capacity for forming multivalent interactions, the authors demonstrate that the contribution of the CD cannot be overlooked, as it significantly impacts the saturation concentration.

      Essential revisions (based on reviewers assessment below):

      1) The manuscript describes the results of both single-molecule simulations and direct coexistence simulations. However, it is not very easy for the reader to determine which types simulations were performed in each section. The details on the simulations input parameters are also missing. Such details are needed throughout, i.e. to allow readers to follow the work and its implications. For instance, the specific salt conditions employed in the simulations are not explicitly stated. Since HP1 charge is presented as a key regulator for the modulation of HP1 paralogs radii of gyration and their phase behaviour, it is crucial for the authors to explicitly describe the salt concentration used for the different simulations and highlight how the relative differences observed are expected to change as the salt concentration decreases/increases.

      We have turned the first sentences in the paragraphs into subtitles to describe the results of single homodimers in dilute phase and multi-dimers in phase coexistence simulations.

      “Sequence variation affects the conformations of HP1 paralogs in the dilute phase.”

      “Sequence variation in HP1 paralogs leads to their distinct phase separation behaviors.”

      To improve the clarity, we have also added the following sentence to Fig. 2 caption.

      “… Figs. 2a-e show the results obtained under dilute conditions, while Figs. 2f-m illustrate the conditions of phase coexistence.”

      We have specified the salt concentration used in the CG simulations in the Materials and Methods section and the relevant figure captions to improve clarity. We also addressed the reviewer’s comment on salt concentration in the public review above.

      2) Since direct coexistence simulations suffer from important finite-size effects, especially for multi-component mixtures as those investigated here, describing how many proteins/DNA copies were used per system, the size of the simulation, and which checks were done to check for finite-size effects is important. Regarding this point, estimating C_sat from Direct Coexistence simulations is extremely challenging, given the sensitivity of the dilute phase concentration to the box dimensions. Hence, it would be valuable if the authors clarify that the differences on C_sat provided represent a qualitative comparison and are sensitive to the simulation conditions. Importantly, the observation of spatial segregation of components in multi-component condensates could be an artefact of the box dimensions, relative copies of the various components, and overall system density.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s concern regarding the finite-size effects in phase coexistence simulations and potential artifacts arising from box dimensions and system composition. In response to this, we have expanded the Materials and Methods section to elaborate on the specific checks to examine the finite-size effects. The new texts and additional SI figures are shown below.

      “Previous studies have demonstrated that slab geometry can help mitigate finite-size effects and facilitate efficient sampling of the phase diagram (41). To assess the potential impact of finite-size effects with our chosen box dimensions, we conducted a test using the HP1α homodimer, which serves as a representative system given the comparable sequence lengths of HP1 paralogs and their chimeras. By reducing the system size by 30% and constructing its phase diagram, we observed that both the original system size (50 dimers) and the reduced counterpart (35 dimers) produced similar phase diagrams, with critical temperatures of 353.3 K and 352.1 K, respectively, as shown in Figs. S4a,b.

      We further evaluated the influence of the xy cross-sectional area on the measurement of Csat. With the z-direction box length fixed at 1190 ų, we varied the xy cross-sectional areas (120x120, 150x150, and 200x200 Ų) while maintaining the protein density consistent with the control case (170x170 Ų). Given that HP1 dimers are multidomain proteins, a 120x120 Ų cross-section was the minimum size feasible to prevent particle overlap in HOOMD simulations due to the constraints of the small box size. Our findings indicate that the condensates remained stable across all tested cross-sectional areas and that there were no significant differences in Csat measurements within the margin of error, as depicted in Figs. S4c,d. These results confirm that our chosen box size is sufficiently large to minimize finite-size effects, thus ensuring the robustness of our results.”

      Author response image 3.

      Finite-size analysis. (a) Phase diagrams for the HP1α homodimer (50 dimers) and for a system reduced in size by 30% (35 dimers), with critical temperatures of 353.3 K and 352.1 K, respectively. (b) Density profiles of HP1α and its reduced size counterpart at various temperatures. (c, d) Density profiles and snapshots of HP1α homodimer simulation with box dimensions of 170x170x1190 Å3 and for systems with z-direction length fixed at 1190 Å and varying cross-sectional areas: 120x120, 150x150, and 200x200 Å2. The black dashed line shows the simulated saturation concentration of wildtype HP1α homodimer in the box dimensions of 170x170x1190 Å3. The simulations were conducted at 320 K and 100 mM salt concentrations. The error bars represent the standard deviation from triplicate simulation sets.

      In response to the observed spatial segregation in our multi-component condensates, we have carefully considered finite-size effects and are confident that the segregation reflects genuine phase behavior rather than an artifact of simulation parameters. This interpretation is supported by findings from Chew et al. (14), who observed similar multilayered condensates and conducted thorough validations to verify these phases. To clarify our approach, we have included additional details in the Materials and Methods section of our manuscript.

      “... By selecting a box size that minimizes finite-size effects, we can ensure that the spatial segregation observed in our multi-component condensates reflects genuine phase behavior. This finding aligns with Chew et al. (66), who also reported well-separated multilayered condensates and conducted thorough validations to confirm these phases.”

      3) The authors should provide a clearer assessment of the quantitative precision of their model. For instance, the authors use all-atom simulations to compare with CG interaction maps. The all-atom maps are sparser due to less sampling, but the authors state that the maps are 'in good agreement'. How do the authors judge this? The issue of model validation is very important: to illustrate, HP1a is anticipated to undergo phase separation primarily under low salt concentrations. Does the model effectively capture this sensitivity to salt conditions? While numerous findings in the manuscript likely remain valid, it could be beneficial to acknowledge potential limitations tied to the simulations. For instance, might the absence of quantitative precision impact certain predictions, such as the CD's influence on phase separation?<br /> The CG models employed do not consider the specific binding of a peptide in a protein cleft, including defined H-bonds, or induced structural elements. Thus, the authors should discuss whether specific interactions (i.e. beyond charge-charge or hydrophobics) may also play a role in the phase behaviour of HP1, and why it makes sense to ignore them in this study. If the only important parameters are charge and hydrophobicity, how can diverse phases coexist in cells? Does the arrangement of charges in the NTD, hinges and CTDs matter or are only the average properties important?

      This is similar to the point made by Reviewer 2 in the Public Review. We have addressed these questions in the public review and incorporated new plots (Fig. S1 f-h) in the SI.

      4) The authors fix CSD-CSD dimers, whereas these interactions are expected to be quite dynamic. In the particular example of HP1 proteins, having dimerization equilibria may change the behaviour of complex mixtures significantly, e.g. in view of the proposed accumulation of HP1b at a phase boundary. This point warrants more discussion in the paper.

      We have addressed the comment in the public review and extended the discussion in the Discussion section.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The authors use all-atom simulations to validate their CG model. In Figure S1, they compare interaction maps. Of course, the AA maps are sparser due to less sampling, but the authors state that the maps are 'in good agreement'. How do the authors judge this (they do not look very similar to me, e.g. the NTD-hinge interactions are mostly lacking)?

      This is similar to Reviewer 1’s concern. We agree that the AA simulations are moderately limited over 5 μs due to the large size of the HP1 proteins (~400 residues in a dimer). However, the expansion trends of the average dimensions of the HP1 paralogs agree with the CG simulations (Fig. S1 a,b). Regarding the AA contact maps, we agree that they are relatively sparse, which makes it difficult to compare them to the CG maps. We have added new plots (Fig. S1 f-h) to show the correlation of the vdW contact probability per residue for each paralog in the AA and CG simulations. The Pearson correlation coefficients are approximately 0.86, suggesting a strong positive linear correlation in the contact propensity between AA and CG simulations.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      REVIEWER #1:

      The authors present a carefully controlled set of experiments that demonstrate an additional complexity for GPCR signaling in that endosomal signaling make be different when b-arrestin is or isn't associated with a G protein-bound V2R vasopressin receptor. It uses state of the art biosensorbased approaches and b-arrestin KO lines to assess this. It adds to a growing body of evidence that G proteins and b-arrestin can associate with GPCR complexes simultaneously. They also demonstrate the possibility that Gaq might also be activated by the V2R receptor. My sense is one thing they may need to be considered is the possibility of such "megacomplexes" might actually involve receptor dimers or oligomers.

      1.1 Can the authors please review the data that describes the concept of "GPCR megacomplexes"? I feel this is missing from the introduction. The notion means different things to different people. As you will see from my other comments, you should especially focus on evidence at the level of the single receptor.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comments and have now included a more wholesome description of the GPCR megacomplex, or ‘megaplex’, concept in the introduction (page 2, 1st paragraph).

      1.2 The authors use mini-G proteins to conclude that V2R receptors interact with Gaq (in addition to Gas). I would prefer if there were a more direct measure of this. Can the authors show that the receptor interacts with full length Gaq (and not the other G proteins in Figure)? Is there a signaling phenotype associated with Gaq coupling? Is it sensitive to Gaq inhibition?

      Excellent point and we are happy to expand further on this. The ability of the V2R to activate Gq/11 has already been demonstrated before (Zhu, X. et al. Mol Pharmacol 46(3):460-9 (1994); Lykke, K. et al. Physiol Rep. 3(8):e12519 (2015); Avet, C. et al. eLife 11: e74101 (2022); Heydenreich, F.M. et al. Mol Pharmacol 102(3):139-49 (2022). Therefore, we did not attempt to document this activation using more traditional assays. On the other hand, to demonstrate an interaction between V2R and Ga subunit in cells is challenging for several reasons. First, the full-length Ga subunit is already located at the plasma membrane at basal state, and thus, generates high background signals in proximity assays. Second, upon receptor activation, the Ga subunit interaction with V2R is so transient that it is difficult, if not impossible, to catch this transient moment in a proximity assay. Although the miniG proteins are highly engineered, coupling specificity of the different subtypes (Gas, Gai/o, Gaq/11, and Ga12/13) to GPCRs is maintained. In addition, as they are homogenously expressed in the cytosol under basal states rather than at the membrane, they generate low background noise. Upon agonist stimulation, miniG proteins are recruited from the cytosol to the V2R at the plasma membrane, resulting in a robust signal in proximity assays. Thus, miniG proteins are unique in that they can actually detect GPCR–G protein interactions in cellular proximity assays, which is very challenging using full-length Ga subunits.

      That being said, we fully understand the reviewer’s concern and greatly value the effort in enhancing robustness of our study. Therefore, we have now monitored downstream signaling events of Gaq/11 in the absence or presence of the selective Gaq/11 inhibitor YM-254890 as a secondary method of documenting Gaq/11 activity. Specifically, we used a newly developed biosensor to measure diacylglycerol (DAG) production, a downstream second messenger of Gaq/11 activation, at both the plasma membrane and endosomes. Using a second biosensor, we detect general protein kinase C (PKC) activation, which is another downstream signaling event of Gaq/11 activation. Together, we demonstrated that AVP-stimulation leads to DAG production at both the plasma membrane and endosomes (Fig. 1C-D) as well as PKC activation (Fig. 1E), which all are sensitive to YM-254890 inhibition (Fig. 1C-D and E). Together these results rigorously suggest that the V2R interacts with and activates Gaq/11.

      1.3 I raise a similar concern with Gaq coupling in endosomes.

      For similar reasons that miniG proteins are excellent tools for demonstrating V2R interaction with G proteins at the plasma membrane, miniG proteins can also be used to detect V2R interaction with G proteins at endosomes by measuring proximity between miniG and an endosomal marker in response to agonist challenge. However, to ensure that the endosomal recruitment of miniGsq to the V2R demonstrated in our study corresponds to endosomal Gaq/11 activation, we monitored the production of DAG at the early endosomes in a similar way to which we detected DAG production at the plasma membrane. As shown in Fig. 1D, stimulation of V2R with AVP induces recruitment of the DAG-binding biosensor to the early endosomal marker Rab5. Pre-treatment of the cells with the selective Gaq/11 inhibitor YM-254890 abrogated this response, confirming that V2R activation leads to production of DAG at the early endosomes in a Gaq/11-dependent manner (Fig. 1D).

      1.4 Can the confocal data be shown for Gai and Ga12?

      Yes, we can certainly show this data as negative control. We have now included the confocal data using Halo-mGsi as a negative control for confocal microscopy (Fig. 2). As seen on this figure, mGsi does not colocalize with Lck (plasma membrane), nor with EEA1 (early endosomes) upon stimulation of cells with AVP in line with a receptor that does not couple to Gai/o.

      We did not include data using Halo-mG12, as this G protein subtype, similar to Gi/o, does not couple functionally to V2R. Therefore, it is highly unlikely we would obtain different results from the experiments using Halo-mGsi.

      1.5 The authors want us to believe that there is simultaneous binding of G proteins and b-arrestin. This is never demonstrated and is at odds with the structural basis of G protein and b-arrestin binding. Have the authors considered that "simultaneous" occupancy might simply reflect binding at distinct GPCR monomers in the context of dimeric or oligomeric receptors? They could I suppose provide data at the level of a single receptor rather than using the bulk BRET approaches used.

      We appreciate the comment and opportunity to highlight some of our previous work, which address the megacomplexes at the level of a single receptor. First, we have characterized the megacomplex biochemically and structurally at a low resolution (Thomsen ARB et al. 2016, Cell 166(4):907-19). The results unequivocally demonstrate that a single GPCR interacts simultaneously with heterotrimeric G protein, at the receptor core, and with b-arrestin via the phosphorylated receptor carboxy-terminal. We also documented functionality of the megacomplex as the receptor can interact with and activate the G protein, which were shown by 3 different biochemical approaches (Thomsen ARB et al. 2016, Cell 166(4):907-19). In addition, we solved a high-resolution cryo-EM structure of a megacomplex further highlighting the architecture of this complex (Nguyen AH et al. 2019, Nat Struct Mol Biol 26:1123-31). As both biochemical and structural analyses were done in vitro in which the receptor was embedded in a detergent micelle, we also confirmed that the megacomplex structural architecture fits naturally within the context of a membrane in molecular dynamics simulation experiments (Nguyen AH et al. 2019, Nat Struct Mol Biol 26:1123-31).

      In cells, we and others have also showed that GPCRs such as the V2R can bind b-arrestins exclusively via the phosphorylated carboxy-terminal tail as it does in the megacomplex (Kumari P et al. 2016, Nat Commun 7:13416; Cahill III TJ et al. 2017, PNAS 114(10):2562-67; Kumari P et al. 2017, Mol Biol Cell 28(8):1003-10; Chen K et al. 2023, Nature (online doi: https://doi.org/10.1038/s41586-023-06420-x). In addition, we and others have used BRET and confocal microscopy to show that the V2R and other GPCRs recruit G protein and b-arrestin simultaneously and that the three components colocalize in endosomes upon prolonged agonist exposure (Thomsen ARB et al. 2016, Cell 166(4):907-19; Chen K et al. 2023, Nature (online doi: https://doi.org/10.1038/s41586-023-06420-x). As the reviewer correctly points out, in these cellular experiments (as well as in single molecule microscopy), the working resolution is not high enough to rule out that the receptors that co-recruit G protein and b-arrestin in endosomes could be dimeric instead of monomeric. Thus, we conducted a series of experiments with GPCR–b-arrestin fusions where the two proteins are covalently attached at the receptor carboxy-terminal tail. We showed that despite the GPCR–b-arrestin coupling being fully functional (in respect to b-arrestin promoting a highaffinity state of the receptor for agonist binding and constitutively internalizing the receptor) the receptor could still activate G proteins (Thomsen ARB et al. 2016, Cell 166(4):907-19; Nguyen AH et al. 2019, Nat Struct Mol Biol 26:1123-31), which demonstrates that the single receptor megaplex can physically form in cells.

      We have now included an extra paragraph in the discussion to go over these megaplex-related considerations (5th paragraph in the discussion), and we thank the reviewer for raising this point.

      1.6 Please introduce abbreviations when you first use this- this was not done consistently.

      Thank you for noticing these errors, which we now have corrected.  

      REVIEWER #2:

      This manuscript by Daly et al., probes the emerging paradigm of GPCR signaling from endosomes using the V2R as a model system with an emphasis on Gaq/11 and b-arrestins. The study employs cellular imaging, enzyme complementation assays and energy transfer-based sensors to probe the potential formation of GPCR-G-protein-b-arrestin megaplexes. While the study is certainly very interesting, it appears to be very preliminary at many levels, and clearly requires further development in order to make robust conclusions. The authors should consider expanding on this work further to make the points more convincingly to make the work solid and impactful. The two corresponding authors are among the leaders in the field having demonstrated the existence of megaplexes, and building on the work in a systematic fashion should certainly move the paradigm forward. As the work presented in the current manuscript is already pre-printed, the authors should take this opportunity to present a completer and more comprehensive story to the field.

      We are grateful for the time and efforts the reviewer has put into reviewing our work. We are certainly excited to learn that the reviewer finds our work “very interesting”. Regarding the robustness, we have added extra control experiments to increase the completeness of the study. These experiments include:

      • Measurements of AVP-stimulated diacylglycerol production, a signaling event downstream of Gaq/11 activation. These measurements were conducted both at plasma membrane (Fig. 1C) and early endosomes (Fig. 1D) using a newly developed DAG-binding biosensor, and demonstrate that the V2R activates Gaq/11 at both of these subcellular locations.

      • Monitoring AVP-promoted protein kinase C activation, another downstream signaling effect of Gaq/11 activation (Fig. 1E). The result of this approach shows in another way that V2R activates of Gaq/11.

      • Inhibition of signaling events downstream of Gaq/11 activation using the selective of Gaq/11 inhibitor YM254890. YM-254890 inhibits both AVP-stimulated DAG production at plasma membrane and endosomes as well as PKC activation (Fig. 1C-E), which strongly confirms that these signaling outputs are results of Gaq/11 activation.

      • We have also included the confocal data using Halo-mGsi as a negative control for confocal microscopy (Fig. 2). As seen in this figure, mGsi does not translocate to the plasma membrane or early endosomes upon stimulation with AVP, which validates that V2R activation does not couple to and activate Gai/o.

      Finally, we would like to kindly remind the reviewer that the production of the pre-print manuscript is part of the peer-review process in eLife.

      2.1 The use of miniG proteins in these experiments is a major concern as these are highly engineered and may not represent the true features of G proteins. While these have been used as a readout in other publications, their use in demonstrating megaplex formation is sub-optimal, and native, full-length G proteins should be used.

      We are a bit unsure as to what the reviewer means by using native full-length G proteins. If the reviewer is suggesting to co-immunoprecipitate V2R with native unlabeled G protein and b-arrestin, it should be considered that the G protein interaction with the receptor is extremely transient and unlikely to survive the pull-down procedure unless stabilized by a nanobody or crosslinking. Although the b-arrestin interaction with the receptor is more stable of nature, co-immunoprecipitation with the receptor requires crosslinking or stabilization with a Fab/nanobody. Therefore, we do not think this approach can be used as a more accurate way of detecting native megaplexes.

      If the reviewer is suggesting the use of full-length G proteins in our cell-based proximity assays instead of miniG proteins, we would like to highlight that this approach is somewhat prone to false-positive responses. The major reason behind this is that G proteins are located at regions in membranes close to the receptor whereas b-arrestins are distributed throughout the cytosol. Upon activation of the V2R, barrestins translocate to the receptor at the plasma membrane, which results in enhanced BRET between V2R-coupled G protein subtypes and b-arrestins (see Author response image 1 below of preliminary data). This translocation also results in non-specific BRET signals between b-arrestins and G protein subtypes at the plasma membrane that do not couple to V2R but are located in close proximity to the receptor. As these nonspecific BRET signals do not report on the formation of functional V2R megaplexes (see Author response image 1), we have purposely not used this approach.

      Author response image 1.

      To overcome this technical hurdle in detection of functional megaplexes, we have replaced full-length G proteins by miniG proteins as the latter are located in the cytosol at resting states and only translocate to the membrane area if a receptor adopts an active conformation. This replacement is advantageous since activation of megaplex-forming receptors such as the V2R results in simultaneous translocation of miniG proteins and b-arrestins from the cytosol to the receptor at the plasma membrane, which produces a highly specific proximity signal (see Author response image 2 below of preliminary data). When stimulating the V2R, we only observe increases in proximity between b-arrestin1 and miniG proteins that are activated by the V2R (miniGs and miniGsq) but not the miniG proteins that are not activated by this receptor (miniGsi and miniG12) (see Author response image 2). Therefore, usage of miniG proteins offers a more accurate experimental approach to detect functional megaplexes as compared to the usage of full-length G proteins.

      Author response image 2.

      2.2 The interpretation of complementation (NanoLuc) or proximity (BRET) as evidence of signaling is not appropriate, especially when overexpression system and engineered constructs are being used.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this concern. We have previously demonstrated global Gas activation and Gas signaling in form of cAMP stimulated by internalized V2R (Thomsen ARB et al. 2016, Cell 166(4):907-19). As mentioned previously, in the current updated manuscript we have now included experiments to document downstream signaling events in response to Gaq/11 activation. These experiments include measurement of production of DAG at the plasma membrane (Fig. 1C) and early endosomes (Fig. 1D), as well as phosphorylation/activation of PKC (Fig. 1E). Pre-incubation with the selective Gaq/11 inhibitor YM-254890, abrogated all these downstream signals and confirms that the V2R stimulates Gaq/11 protein signaling at both the plasma membrane and endosomes (Fig. 1C-E).

      2.3 After the original work from the same corresponding authors on megaplex formation, the major challenge in the field is to demonstrate the existence and relevance of megaplex formation at endogenous levels of components, and the current study focuses solely on showing the proximity of Gaq and b-arrestins.

      We completely agree with the reviewer that it will be important to demonstrate functionality endogenous megaplexes and we are currently working on this in other studies using different receptor systems. However, doing this is not trivial and we will have to overcome major technical barriers that we feel is somewhat out of the scope of the current study. The goal of our V2R study is to demonstrate that V2R megaplexes form with Gaq/11 resulting to Gaq/11 activation at endosomes, and that endosomal G protein activation by the V2R can occur independently of b-arrestin, which we in our humble opinion accomplish.

      2.4 The study lacks a coherent approach, and the assays are often shifted back and forth between the two b-arrestin isoforms (1 and 2), for example, confocal vs. complementation etc.

      We understand the reviewer’s concern. However, as opposed to the β2-adrenergic receptor that binds βarrestin2 with higher affinity than β-arrestin1, V2R has a strong affinity for both β-arrestin1 and β-arrestin2 (Oakley et al. 2000, JBC 275(22):17201-10). The V2R’s almost identical affinity for β-arrestin1 and βarrestin2 is well illustrated in Fig. 3B. Thus, although different β-arrestin isoforms were used in some experiments, it is very unlikely that the overall results and conclusions from this study will change by adding extra experiments to ensure that both β-arrestin isoforms are used in every experiment.

      2.5 In every assay, only the G proteins and b-arrestins are monitored without a direct assessment of the presence of receptor, and absent that data, it is difficult to justify calling these entities megaplexes.

      Mini G proteins and b-arrestin come into close proximity upon agonist stimulation of the V2R. Using confocal microscopy, we observed this co-recruitment of miniGs/miniGsq and b-arrestin in response to prolonged V2R stimulation at endosomes specifically (Fig. 3D-F). In absence of GPCR stimulation, both miniG and b-arrestin would be homogenously distributed throughout the cytosol, and thus, the only reason to why both proteins have been recruited to endosomes in response to AVP challenge is that they are recruited to internalized and active V2R. This point was obviously not adequately described in the original manuscript, and thus, we have now clarified this further in the updated manuscript at the 8th sentence of the last paragraph of the "The V2R recruits Gas/Gaq and barrs simultaneously" section.

      REVIEWER #3:

      The manuscript by Daly et al. examines endosomal signaling of the vasopressin type 2 receptors using engineered mini G protein (mG proteins) and a number of novel techniques to address if sustained G protein signaling in the endosomal compartment is enhanced by b-arrestin. Employing these interesting techniques they have how V2R could activates Gas and Gaq in the endosomal compartments and how this modulation could occur in arrestin-dependent and -independent manner. Although the phenomenon of endosomal signaling is complex to address the authors have tried their best to examine these using a number of well controlled set of experiments. Though this is an interesting and well carried out study of endosomal signaling of G proteins, my concerns are:

      3.1 The study is done in overexpressed HEK 293 cells with these engineered constructs making me wonder if the kinetics would be the same in primary cells?

      The reviewer raises an interesting and valid point. It is possible that in the context of primary cells the kinetic would differ slightly and it would definitely be interesting to address this in a subsequent study. However, despite being an interesting aspect of our study, the kinetic itself is not our major take home message, but rather the subcellular localization of the G protein activation and the role of β-arrestin in these events. We have now highlighted this aspect in our updated manuscript (1st paragraph of the discussion) and we thank the reviewer for addressing this.

      3.2 The use of the phrase "G protein activation independent of b-arrestins to a minor degree" would make me question its physiological relevance. The authors should discuss the relevance of their findings in physiological or pathological context.

      We are glad that the reviewer focuses on this point, and we would like to highlight that other GPCRs including the glucagon-like peptide-1 receptor (GLP1R) internalizes in a β-arrestin-independent manner (Claing A et al. 2000 PNAS 97(3):1119-24), while signaling through Gas from endosomes. In the case of the GLP1R, this endosomal Gas signaling promotes glucose-stimulated insulin secretion in pancreatic βcells (Kuna RS et al. 2013 Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 305:E161-70). Consequently, β-arrestinindependent endosomal G protein signaling appears to have some physiological relevance. Similarly, in a very recent pre-print from the von Zastrow group (Blythe EE and von Zastrow M 2023 BioRxiv https://doi.org/10.1101/2022.09.07.506997), it was reported that endogenously-expressed vasoactive intestinal peptide receptor 1 (VIPR1), which regulates gastro-intestinal functions, promotes robust G protein signaling from endosomes in a completely β-arrestin-independent fashion. This again suggest that endogenously expressed GPCRs can internalize and activate G proteins from endosomes independently from β-arrestin to produce physiological responses. We have now discussed about these studies in the 6th paragraph of the discussion.

      3.3 The confocal colocalization studies shown in Figure 2 and their conclusion "suggesting a certain level of endosomal Gas/Gaq signaling despite the absence of barr2" seems rather inconclusive.

      As opposed to V2R a receptor that retains β-arrestin in endosomes upon internalization, β-arrestin quickly dissociates from V2b2AR after internalization due to the low affinity of the carboxy-terminal of β2AR for βarrestin. In the previous Fig. 2 (now Fig. 3), after 45 minutes of AVP stimulation, no β-arrestin is visible at endosomes in cells expressing V2b2AR as β-arrestin has already dissociated from the receptor and translocated back to the cytosol. However, clear green clusters of mGs and mGsq are still visible at endosomes indicating the presence of active receptor interacting with Gas or Gaq despite the fact that βarrestin is back to the cytosol. We quantified the percentage of the green mGs or mGsq clusters that do not colocalize with β-arrestin and have added this information to the updated version of the manuscript (Fig. 3G). In V2R-expressing cells, almost all active receptors that interact with Gas or Gaq/11 also associate with β-arrestin (Fig. 3G). In contrast, in V2b2AR-expressing cells, approximately 75% of the active receptors do not interact with β-arrestin (Fig. 3G). This suggests that β-arrestin binding to V2R is not an absolute requirement for endosomal Gas and Gaq activation by V2R. This point was obviously not addressed adequately in the original manuscript, and thus, we have now elaborated further on this in the updated version in the last paragraph of the "The V2R recruits Gas/Gaq and βarrs simultaneously" section.

      3.4 Though a novel observation it is not clear to me how V2R would internalize after activation without arrestin. Is it some sort of generalized microcytosis occurring in these overexpressed cells? Should discuss.

      This is certainly a very interesting observation and something other research laboratories also have seen recently – in particular, in context to endosomal G protein signaling (Blythe EE and von Zastrow M 2023 BioRxiv https://doi.org/10.1101/2022.09.07.506997). The main and best characterized pathway for GPCR internalization is clathrin-dependent where receptors most commonly are associated with β-arrestins. However, for some GPCRs, the β-arrestin association is not required for clathrin-mediated internalization. One example is the apelin receptor that can internalize via clathrin-coated pits, but in β-arrestinindependent manner (Pope GR et al. 2016 Moll Cell Endocrinol. 437:108-19). Alternatively, GPCRs can also internalize independently of any clathrin and β-arrestin associations via caveolae or fast endophilinmediated endocytosis (FEME). We have now expanded our discussion of possible mechanisms for βarrestin-independent receptor internalization in the updated manuscript in the 6th paragraph of the discussion, and we thank the reviewer for the suggestion.

      3.5 Is use of mini G protein a good representation? The authors should justify.

      Excellent point and something we have comprehensively discussed in our response to reviewer 1 and 2 (points 1.2 and 2.1).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Bendzunas, Byrne et al. explore two highly topical areas of protein kinase regulation in this manuscript. Firstly, the idea that Cys modification could regulate kinase activity. The senior authors have published some standout papers exploring this idea of late, and the current work adds to the picture of how active site Cys might have been favoured in evolution to serve critical regulatory functions. Second, BRSK1/2 are understudied kinases listed as part of the "dark kinome" so any knowledge of their underlying regulation is of critical importance to advancing the field.

      Strengths:

      In this study, the author pinpoints highly-conserved, but BRSK-specific, Cys residues as key players in kinase regulation. There is a delicate balance between equating what happens in vitro with recombinant proteins relative to what the functional consequence of Cys mutation might be in cells or organisms, but the authors are very clear with the caveats relating to these connections in their descriptions and discussion. Accordingly, by extension, they present a very sound biochemical case for how Cys modification might influence kinase activity in cellular environs.

      Weaknesses:

      I have very few critiques for this study, and my major points are barely major.

      Major points

      (1) My sense is that the influence of Cys mutation on dimerization is going to be one of the first queries readers consider as they read the work. It would be, in my opinion, useful to bring forward the dimer section in the manuscript.

      We agree that the influence of Cys on BRSK dimerization is a topic of significant interest. Our primary focus was to explore oxidative regulation of the understudied BRSK kinases as they contain a conserved T-loop Cys, and we have previously demonstrated that equivalent residues at this position in related kinases were critical drivers of oxidative modulation of catalytic activity. We have demonstrated here that BRSK1 & 2 are similarly regulated by redox and this is due to oxidative modification of the T+2 Cys, in addition to Cys residues that are conserved amongst related ARKs as well as BRSK-specific Cys. Although we also provide evidence for limited redox-sensitive higher order BRSK species (dimers) in our in vitro analysis, these represent a small population of the total BRSK protein pool (this was validated by SEC-MALs analysis). As such, we do not have strong evidence to suggest that these limited dimers significantly contribute to the pronounced inhibition of BRSK1 & 2 in the presence of oxidizing agents, and instead believe that other biochemical mechanisms likely drive this response. This may result from oxidized Cys altering the conformation of the activation loop. Indeed, the formation of an intramolecular disulfide within the T-loop of BRSK1 & 2, which we detected by MS, is one such regulatory modification. It is noteworthy, that intramolecular disulfide bonds within the T-loop of AKT and MELK have already been shown to induce an inactive state in the kinase, and we posit a similar mechanism for BRSKs.

      While we recognize the potential importance of dimerization in this context, our current data from in vitro and cell-based assays do not provide substantial evidence to assert dimerization as a primary regulatory mechanism. Hence, we maintained a more conservative stance in our manuscript, discussing dimerization in later sections where it naturally followed from the initial findings. That being said, we acknowledge the potential significance of dimerization in the regulation of the BRSK T-loop cysteine. We believe this aspect merits further investigation and could indeed be the focus of a follow-up study.

      (2) Relatedly, the effect of Cys mutation on the dimerization properties of preparations of recombinant protein is not very clear as it stands. Some SEC traces would be helpful; these could be included in the supplement.

      In order to determine whether our recombinant BRSK proteins (and T-loop mutants) existed as monomers or dimers, we performed SDS-PAGE under reducing and non-reducing conditions (Fig 7). This unambiguously revealed that a monomer was the prominent species, with little evidence of dimers under these experimental conditions (even in the presence of oxidizing agents). Although we cannot discount a regulatory role for BRSK dimers in other physiological contexts, we could not produce sufficient evidence to suggest that multimerization played a substantial role in modifying BRSK kinase activity in our assays. We note that our in vitro analysis was performed using truncated forms of the protein, and as such it is entirely possible that regions of the protein that flank the kinase domain may serve additional regulatory functions that may include higher order BRSK conformations. In this regard, although we have not included SEC traces of our recombinant proteins, we have included analytical SEC-MALS of the truncated proteins (Supplementary Figure 6) which we believe to be more informative. We have also now included additional SEC-MALS data for BRSK2 C176A and C183A (Supplementary Figure 6d and e), which supports our findings in Fig 7, demonstrating the presence of limited dimer species under non-reducing conditions.

      (3) Is there any knowledge of Cys mutants in disease for BRSK1/2?

      We have conducted an extensive search across several databases: COSMIC (Catalogue of Somatic Mutations in Cancer), ProKinO (Protein Kinase Ontology), and TCGA (The Cancer Genome Atlas). These databases are well-regarded for their comprehensive and detailed records of mutations related to cancer and protein kinases. Our analysis using the COSMIC and TCGA databases focused on identifying any reported instances of Cys mutations in BRSK1/2 that are implicated in cancer. Additionally, we utilized the ProKinO database to explore the broader landscape of protein kinase mutations, including any potential disease associations of Cys mutations in BRSK1/2. However, we found no evidence to indicate the presence of Cys mutations in BRSK1/2 that are associated with cancer or disease. This lack of association in the current literature and database records suggests that, as of our latest search, Cys mutations in BRSK1/2 have not been reported as significant contributors to pathogenesis.

      (4) In bar charts, I'd recommend plotting data points. Plus, it is crucial to report in the legend what error measure is shown, the number of replicates, and the statistical method used in any tests.

      We have added the data points to the bar charts and included statistical methods in figure legends.

      (5) In Figure 5b, the GAPDH loading control doesn't look quite right.

      The blot has been repeated and updated.

      (6) In Figure 7 there is no indication of what mode of detection was used for these gels.

      We have updated the figure legend to confirm that the detection method was western blot.

      (7) Recombinant proteins - more detail should be included on how they were prepared. Was there a reducing agent present during purification? Where did they elute off SEC... consistent with a monomer of higher order species?

      We have added ‘produced in the absence of reducing agents unless stated otherwise’ in the methods section to improve clarity. Although we have not added additional sentences to describe the elution profile of the BRSK proteins by SEC during purification, we believe that the inclusion of analytical SEC-MALS data is sufficient evidence that the proteins are largely monomeric under non-reducing conditions.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this study by Bendzunas et al, the authors show that the formation of intra-molecular disulfide bonds involving a pair of Cys residues near the catalytic HRD motif and a highly conserved T-Loop Cys with a BRSK-specific Cys at an unusual CPE motif at the end of the activation segment function as repressive regulatory mechanisms in BSK1 and 2. They observed that mutation of the CPE-Cys only, contrary to the double mutation of the pair, increases catalytic activity in vitro and drives phosphorylation of the BRSK substrate Tau in cells. Molecular modeling and molecular dynamics simulations indicate that oxidation of the CPE-Cys destabilizes a conserved salt bridge network critical for allosteric activation. The occurrence of spatially proximal Cys amino acids in diverse Ser/Thr protein kinase families suggests that disulfide-mediated control of catalytic activity may be a prevalent mechanism for regulation within the broader AMPK family. Understanding the molecular mechanisms underlying kinase regulation by redox-active Cys residues is fundamental as it appears to be widespread in signaling proteins and provides new opportunities to develop specific covalent compounds for the targeted modulation of protein kinases.

      The authors demonstrate that intramolecular cysteine disulfide bonding between conserved cysteines can function as a repressing mechanism as indicated by the effect of DTT and the consequent increase in activity by BSK-1 and -2 (WT). The cause-effect relationship of why mutation of the CPE-Cys only increases catalytic activity in vitro and drives phosphorylation of the BRSK substrate Tau in cells is not clear to me. The explanation given by the authors based on molecular modeling and molecular dynamics simulations is that oxidation of the CPE-Cys (that will favor disulfide bonding) destabilizes a conserved salt bridge network critical for allosteric activation. However, no functional evidence of the impact of the salt-bridge network is provided. If you mutated the two main Cys-pairs (aE-CHRD and A-loop T+2-CPE) you lose the effect of DTT, as the disulfide pairs cannot be formed, hence no repression mechanisms take place, however when looking at individual residues I do not understand why mutating the CPE only results in the opposite effect unless it is independent of its connection with the T+2residue on the A-loop.

      Strengths:

      This is an important and interesting study providing new knowledge in the protein kinase field with important therapeutic implications for the rationale design and development of next-generation inhibitors.

      Weaknesses:

      There are several issues with the figures that this reviewer considers should be addressed.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for The Authors):

      Major points

      Page 26 - the discussion could be more concise. There's an element of recapping the results, which should be avoided.

      Regarding the conciseness of the discussion section, we have thoroughly revised it to ensure a more succinct presentation, deliberately avoiding the recapitulation of results. The revised discussion now focuses on interpreting the findings and their implications, steering clear of redundancy with the results section.

      Figure 1b seems to be mislabeled/annotated. I recommend checking whether the figure legends match more broadly. Figure 1 appears to be incorrectly cited throughout the results.

      Thank you for pointing out the discrepancies in the labeling and citation of Figure 1b. We have carefully reviewed and corrected these issues to ensure that all figure labels, legends, and citations accurately reflect the corresponding data and illustrations. We appreciate your attention to detail and the opportunity to improve the clarity and accuracy of our presentation.

      Figure 6 - please include a color-coding key in the figure. Further support for these simulations could be provided by supplementary movies or plots of the interaction. Figure 4 colour palette should be adjusted for the spheres in the Richardson diagrams to have greater distinction.

      As suggested, we have amended the colour palette in Figure 4 to improve conformity throughout the figure.

      Minor points

      Figure 2 - it'd be helpful to know what the percentage coverage of peptides is.

      We have updated the figure legend to include peptide coverage for both proteins

      Some typos - Supp 2 legend "Domians".

      Fixed

      Figure 6 legend - analyzed by needs a space;

      Fixed

      Fig 8 legend schematic misspelled.

      Fixed

      Broadly, if you Google T-loop you get a pot pourri of enzyme answers. Why not just use Activation loop?

      The choice of "T-loop" over "Activation loop" in our manuscript was made to maintain consistency with other literature in the field, and in particular our previous paper “Aurora A regulation by reversible cysteine oxidation reveals evolutionarily conserved redox control of Ser/Thr protein kinase activity” where we refer to the activation loop cysteine as T-loop + 2. We acknowledge the varied enzyme contexts in which "T-loop" is used and agree on the importance of clarity. To address this, we made an explicit note in the manuscript that the "T-loop" is also referred to as the "Activation loop", ensuring readers are aware of the interchangeable use of these terms. Additionally, this nomenclature facilitates a more straightforward designation of cysteine residues within the loop (T+2 Cysteine). We believe this approach balances adherence to established conventions with the need for clarity and precision in our descriptions.

      Methods - what is LR cloning. Requires some definition. Some manufacturer detail is missing in methods, and referring to prior work is not sufficient to empower readers to replicate.

      We agree, and have added the following to the methods section:

      “BRSK1 and 2 were sub-cloned into pDest vectors (to encode the expression of N-terminal Flag or HA tagged proteins) using the Gateway LR Clonase II system (Invitrogen) according to the manufacturer’s instructions. pENtR BRSK1/2 clones were obtained in the form of Gateway-compatible donor vectors from Dr Ben Major (Washington University in St. Louis). The Gateway LR Clonase II enzyme mix mediates recombination between the attL sites on the Entry clone and the attR sites on the destination vector. All cloned BRSK1/2 genes were fully sequenced prior to use.”

      Page 7 - optimal settings should be reported. How were pTau signals quantified and normalised?

      We have added the following to the methods section:

      “Two-color Western blot detection method employing infrared fluorescence was used to measure the ratio of Tau phospho serine 262 to total Tau. Total GFP Tau was detected using a mouse anti GFP antibody and visualized at 680 nm using goat anti mouse IRdye 680 while phospho-tau was detected using a Tau phospho serine 262 specific antibody and visualized at 800 nm using goat anti rabbit IRdye 800. Imaging was performed using a Licor Odessey Clx with scan control settings set to 169 μm, medium quality, and 0.0 mm distance. Quantification was performed using Licor image studio on the raw image files. Total Tau to phospho Tau ratio was determined by measuring the ratio of the fluorescence intensities measured at 800 nm (pTau) to those at 680 nm (total tau).”

      In the Figure 6g-j legend, the salt bridge is incorrectly annotated as E185-R248 rather than 258.

      Fixed

      Lines 393-395 provides a repeat statement on BRSKs phosphorylating Tau (from 388-389).

      We have removed the repetition and reworded the opening lines of the results section to improve the overall flow of the manuscript.

      Supp. Figure 1 is difficult to view - would it be possible to increase the size of the phylogenetic analysis?

      We thank the reviewer for this observation. We have rotated (90°) and expanded the figure so that it can be more clearly viewed

      Supp. Figure 2 - BRSK1/2 incorrectly spelled.

      Fixed

      Please check the alignment of labels in Supp. Figure 3e.

      Fixed

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) In Figure 1, current panel b is not mentioned/described in the figure legend and as a consequence, the rest of the panels in the legends do not fit the content of the figure.

      Reviewer 1 also noted this error, and we have amended the manuscript accordingly.

      What is the rationale for using the HEK293T cells as the main experimental/cellular system? Are there cell lines that express both proteins endogenously so that the authors can recapitulate the results obtained from ectopic overexpression?

      The selection of HEK-293T cells was driven by their well-established utility in overexpression studies, which make them ideal for the investigation of protein interactions and redox regulation. This cell line's robust transfection efficiency and well-characterized biology provide a reliable platform for dissecting the molecular mechanisms underlying the redox regulation of proteins. Furthermore, the use of HEK-293T cells aligns with the broader scientific practice, serving as a common ground for comparability with existing literature in the field of BRSK1/2 signaling, protein regulation and interaction studies.

      The application of HEK-293T cells as a model system in our study serves as a foundational step towards eventually elucidating the functions of BRSK1/2 in neuronal cells, where these kinases are predominantly expressed and play critical roles. Given the fact that BRSKs are classed as ‘understudied’ kinases, the choice of a HEK-293T co-overexpression system allowed us to analyze the direct effects of BRSK kinase activity (using phosphorylation of Tau as a readout) in a cellular context and in more controlled manner. This approach not only aids in the establishment of a baseline understanding of the redox regulation of BRSK1/2, but also sets the stage for subsequent investigations in more physiologically relevant neuronal models

      In current panel d, could the authors recapitulate the same experimental conditions as in current panel c?

      Figure 1 panel c shows that both BRSK1 and 2 are reversibly inhibited by oxidizing agents such as H2O2, whilst panels d and e show the concentration dependent activation and inhibition of the BRSKs with increasing concentrations of DTT and H2O2 respectively. The experimental conditions were identical, other than changing amounts of reducing and oxidizing agents, and used the same peptide coupled assays. Data for all experiments were originally collected in ‘real time’ as depicted in Fig 1c (increase in substrate phosphorylation over time). However, to aid interpretation of the data, we elected to present the latter two panels as dose response curves by calculating the change in the rate of enzyme activity (shown as pmol phosphate incorporated into the peptide substrate per min) for each condition. To aid the reader, we now include an additional supplementary figure (new supplementary figure 2) depicting BRSK1 and 2 dependent phosphorylation of the peptide substrate in the presence of different concentrations of DTT and H2O2 in a real time (kinetic) assay. The new data shown is a subset of the unprocessed data that was used to calculate the rates of BRSK activity in Fig 1d & e.

      Why did the authors use full-length constructs in these experiments and did not in e.g. Figure 2 where they used KD constructs instead?

      In the initial experiments, illustrated in Figure 1, we employed full-length protein constructs to establish a proof of concept, demonstrating the overall behavior and interactions of the proteins in their full-length form. This confirmed that BRSK1 & 2, which both contain a conserved T + 2 Cys residue that is frequently prognostic for redox sensitivity in related kinases, displayed a near-obligate requirement for reducing agents to promote kinase activity.  

      Subsequently, in Figure 2, our focus shifted towards delineating the specific regions within the proteins that are critical for redox regulation. By using constructs that encompass only the kinase domain, we aimed to demonstrate that the redox-sensitive regulation of these proteins is predominantly mediated by specific cysteine residues located within the kinase domain itself. This strategic use of the kinase domain of the protein allowed for a more targeted investigation. Furthermore, in our hands these truncated forms of the protein were more stable at higher concentrations, enabling more detailed characterization of the proteins by DSF and SEC-MALS. We predict that the flanking disordered regions of the full-length protein (as predicted by AlphaFold) contribute to this effect.

      (2) In Figure 2, Did the authors try to do LC/MS-MS in the same experimental conditions as in Figure 1 (e.g. buffer minus/plus DTT, H2O2, H2O2 + DTT)?

      We would like to clarify that the mass spectrometry experiments were conducted exclusively on proteins purified under native (non-reducing) conditions. We did not extend the LC/MS-MS analyses to include proteins treated with various buffer conditions such as minus/plus DTT, H2O2, or H2O2 + DTT as used in the experiments depicted in Figure 1. Given that we could readily detect disulfides in the absence of oxidizing agents, we did not see the benefit of additional treatment conditions as peroxide treatment of protein samples can frequently complicate interpretation of MS data. However, it should be noted that prior to MS analysis, tryptic peptides were subjected to a 50:50 split, with one half alkylated in the presence of DTT (as described in the methods section) to eliminate disulfides and other transiently oxidized Cys forms. Comparative analysis between reduced and non-reduced tryptic peptides improved our confidence when assigning disulfide bonds (which were eliminated in identical peptides in the presence of DTT).

      On panel b, why did the authors show alphafold predictions and not empiric structural information (e.g. X-ray, EM,..)?

      The AlphaFold models were primarily utilized to map the general locations of redox-sensitive cysteine pairs within the proteins of interest. Although we have access to the crystal structure of mouse BRSK2, they do not fully capture the active conformation seen in the Alphafold model of the human version. The use of AlphaFold models for human proteins in this study aids in consistently tracking residue numbering across the manuscript, offering a useful framework for understanding the spatial arrangement of these critical cysteine pairs in their potentially active-like states. This approach facilitates our analysis and discussion by providing a reference for the structural context of these residues in the human proteins.

      What was the rationale for using the KD construct and not the FL as in Figure 1?

      The rationale to use the kinase domain was primarily based on the significantly lower confidence in the structural predictions for regions outside the kinase domain (KD). Our experimental focus was to investigate the role of conserved cysteine residues within the kinase domain, which are critical for the protein's function and regulation. This targeted approach allowed us to concentrate our analyses on the most functionally relevant and structurally defined portion of the protein, thereby enhancing the precision and relevance of our findings. As is frequently the case, truncated forms of the protein, consisting only of the kinase domain, are much more stable than their full length counterparts and are therefore more amenable to in vitro biochemical analysis. In our hands this was true for both BRSK1 and 2, and as such much of the data collected here was generated using kinase-domain (KD) constructs. Simulations using the KD structures are therefore much more representative of our original experimental setup.

      The BSK1 KD construct appears to be rather inactive and not responsive to DTT treatment. Could the authors comment on the differences observed with the FL construct of Figure 1

      It is important to note that BRSK1, in general, exhibits lower intrinsic activity compared to BRSK2. This reduced activity could be attributed to a range of factors, including the need for activation by upstream kinases such as LKB1, as well as potential post-translational modifications (PTMs) that may be absent in the bacterially expressed KD construct. The full-length forms of the protein were purified from Sf21 cells, and as such may have additional modifications that are lacking in the bacterially derived KD counterparts. We also cannot discount additional regulatory roles of the regions that flank the KD, and these may contribute in part to the modest discrepancy observed between constructs.  Despite these differences, it is crucial to emphasize that both the KD and FL constructs of BRSK1 are regulated by DTT, indicating a conserved redox-dependent activation for both of the related BRSK proteins.  

      (3) In Figure 4, on panel A wouldn´t the authors expect that mutating on the pairs e.g. C198A in BSK1 would have the same effect as mutating the C191 from the T+2 site? Did they try mutating individual sites of the aE/CHRD pair? The same will apply to BSK2

      We appreciate the insightful comment. It's important to clarify that the redox regulation of these proteins is influenced not solely by the formation of disulfide bonds but also by the oxidation state of individual cysteine residues, particularly the T+2 Cys. This nuanced mechanism of regulation allows for a diverse range of functional outcomes based on the specific cysteine involved and its state of oxidation. This aspect forms a key finding of our paper, highlighting the complexity of redox regulation beyond mere disulfide bond formation. For example, AURA kinase activity is regulated by oxidation of a single T+2 Cys (Cys290, equivalent to Cys191 and Cys176 of BRSK1 and 2 respectively), but this regulation can be supplemented through artificial incorporation of a secondary Cys at the DFG+2 position (Byrne et al., 2020). This targeted genetic modification or AURA mirrors equivalent regulatory disulfide-forming Cys pairs that naturally occur in kinases such as AKT and MELK, and which provide an extra layer of regulatory fine tuning (and a possible protective role to prevent deleterious over oxidation) to the T+2 Cys. We surmise that the CPE Cys is also an accessory regulatory element to the T+2 Cys in BRSK1 +2, which is the dominant driver of BRSK redox sensitivity (as judged by the fact that CPE Cys mutants are still potently regulated by redox [Fig 4]), by locking it in an inactive disulfide configuration.

      In our preliminary analysis of BRSK1, we observed that mutations of individual sites within the aE/CHRD pair was similarly detrimental to kinase activity as a tandem mutation (see reviewer figure 1). As discussed in the manuscript, we think that these Cys may serve important structural regulatory functions and opted to focus on co-mutations of the aE/CHRD pair for the remainder of our investigation.

      Author response image 1.

      In vitro kinase assays showing rates of in vitro peptide phosphorylation by WT and Cys-to-Ala (aE/CHRD residues) variants of BRSK1 after activation by LKB1.

      In panels C and D, the same experimental conditions should have been measured as in A and B.

      Panels A and B were designed to demonstrate the enzymatic activity and the response to DTT treatment to establish the baseline redox regulation of the kinase and a panel of Cys-to-Ala mutant variants. In contrast, panels C and D were specifically focused on rescue experiments with mutants that showed a significant effect under the conditions tested in A and B. These panels were intended to further explore the role of redox regulation in modulating the activity of these mutants, particularly those that retained some level of activity or exhibited a notable response to redox changes.

      The rationale for this experimental design was to prioritize the investigation of mutants, such as those at the T+2 and CPE cysteine sites, which provided the most insight into the redox-dependent modulation of kinase activity. Other mutants, which resulted in inactivation, were deprioritized in this context as they offered limited additional information regarding the redox regulation mechanism. This focused approach allowed us to delve deeper into understanding how specific cysteine residues contribute to the redox-sensitive control of kinase function, aligning with the overall objective of elucidating the nuanced roles of redox regulation in kinase activity.

      (4) In figure 5: Why did the authors use reduced Glutathione instead of DTT? The authors should have recapitulated the same experimental conditions as in Figure 4 and not focused only on the T+2 or the CPE single mutants but using the double and the aE/CHRD mutants as well, as internal controls and validation of the enzymatic assays using the modified peptide

      Regarding the use of reduced glutathione (GSH) instead of DTT in Figure 5, we chose GSH for its well characterized biological relevance as an antioxidant in cellular responses to oxidative stress. Furthermore, while DTT has been widely used in experimental setups, it is also potentially cytotoxic at high concentrations.

      Addressing the point on experimental consistency with Figure 4, we appreciate the suggestion and indeed had already conducted such experiments (Previously Supp Fig 3, now changed to current Supp Fig 4). These experiments include analyses of BRSK mutant activity in a HEK-293T model. However, we chose not to focus on inactivating mutants (such as the aE/CHRD mutants which had depleted expression levels possibly as a consequence of compromised structural integrity) or pursue the generation of double mutant CMV plasmids, as these were deemed unlikely to add significant insights into the core narrative of our study. Our focus remained on the mutants that yielded the most informative results regarding the redox regulation mechanisms in the in vitro setting, ensuring a clear and impactful presentation of our findings.

      A time course evaluation of the reducing or oxidizing reagents should have been performed. Would we expect that in WT samples, and in the presence of GSH, and also in the case of the CPE mutant, an increment in the levels of Tau phosphorylation as a readout of BSK1-2 activity?

      We acknowledge the importance of such analyses in understanding the dynamic nature of redox regulation on kinase activity and have included a time course (Supp Fig 2 e-g). These results confirm a depletion of Tau phosphorylation over time in response to peroxide generated by the enzyme glucose oxidase.

      (5) In Figure 6, did the authors look at the functional impact of the residues with which interact the T+2 and the CPE motifs e.g. T174 and the E185-R258 tether?

      Our primary focus was on the salt bridges, as this is a key regulatory structural feature that is conserved across many kinases. Regarding the additional interactions mentioned, we have thoroughly evaluated their roles and dynamics through molecular dynamics (MD) simulations but did not find any results of significant relevance to warrant inclusion.

      (6) In Figure 7: Did the author look at the oligomerization state of the BSK1-2 multimers under non-reducing conditions? Were they also observed in the case of the FL constructs? What was the stoichiometry?

      Our current work indicates that the kinase domain of BRSK1-2 primarily exists in a monomeric state, with some evidence of dimerization or multimer formation under specific conditions. Our SEC-MALS (Supp Fig 6) and SDS-PAGE analysis (Figure 7) clearly demonstrates that monomers are overwhelmingly the dominant species under non-reducing conditions (>90 %). We also conclude that these limited oligomeric species can be removed by inclusion of reducing agents such as DTT (Figure 7), which may suggest a role for a Cys residue(s). Notably, removal of the T+2 Cys was insufficient to prevent multimerization.

      We were unable to obtain reliable SEC-MALS data for the full-length forms of the protein, likely due to the presence of disordered regions that flank the kinase domain which results in a highly heterodispersed and unstable preparation (at the concentrations required for SEC-MALS). Although we are therefore unable to comment on the stoichiometry of FL BRSK dimers, we can detect BRSK1 and 2 hetero- and homo-complexes in HEK-293T cells by IP, which supports the existence of limited BRSK1 & 2 dimers (Supp Fig 6a). However, we were unable to detect intermolecular disulfide bonds by MS, although this does not necessarily preclude their existence. The physiological role of BRSK multimerization (if any) and establishing specifically which Cys residues drive this phenomenon is of significant interest to our future investigations.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment

      This manuscript represents a fundamental contribution demonstrating that fentanyl-induced respiratory depression can be reversed with a peripherally-restricted mu opioid receptor antagonist. The paper reports compelling and rigorous physiological, pharmacokinetic, and behavioral evidence supporting this major claim, and furthers mechanistic understanding of how peripheral opioid receptors contribute to respiratory depression. These findings reshape our understanding of opioid-related effects on respiration and have significant therapeutic implications given that medications currently used to reverse opioid overdose (such as naloxone) produce severe aversive and withdrawal effects via actions within the central nervous system.

      We thank the reviewers for their insightful comments and critiques, which we have incorporated into the manuscript. We believe these revisions have significantly improved the manuscript. Additionally, following discussions among the authors, we have revised the color scheme across all figures. For example, the color of the symbols in Figure 1B-D now match the bars in Figure 1E-J, rather than the symbols. We feel that this change improves the clarity and visual consistency of the figures, making it easier to interpret the data across figures.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This paper shows that the synthetic opioid fentanyl induces respiratory depression in rodents. This effect is revised by the opioid receptor antagonist naloxone, as expected. Unexpectedly, the peripherally restricted opioid receptor antagonist naloxone methiodide also blocks fentanyl-induced respiratory depression.

      Strengths:

      The paper reports compelling physiology data supporting the induction of respiratory distress in fentanyl-treated animals. Evidence suggesting that naloxone methiodide reverses this respiratory depression is compelling. This is further supported by pharmacokinetic data suggesting that naloxone methiodide does not penetrate into the brain, nor is it metabolized into brain-penetrant naloxone.

      Weaknesses:

      A weakness of the study is the fact that the functional significance of opioid-induced changes in neural activity in the nTS (as measured by cFos and GcAMP/photometry) is not established. Does the nTS regulate fentanyl-induced respiratory depression, and are changes in nTS activity induced by naloxone and naloxone methiodide relevant to their ability to reverse respiratory depression?

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this article, Ruyle and colleagues assessed the contribution of central and peripheral mu opioid receptors in mediating fentanyl-induced respiratory depression using both naloxone and naloxone methiodide, which does not cross the blood-brain barrier. Both compounds prevented and reversed fentanyl-induced respiratory depression to a comparable degree. The advantage of peripheral treatments is that they circumvent the withdrawal-like effects of naloxone. Moreover, neurons located in the nucleus of the solitary tract are no longer activated by fentanyl when nalaxone methiodide is administered, suggesting that these responses are mediated by peripheral mu opioid receptors. The results delineate a role for peripheral mu opioid receptors in fentanyl-derived respiratory depression and identify a potentially advantageous approach to treating overdoses without inflicting withdrawal on the patients.

      Strengths:

      The strengths of the article include the intravenous delivery of all compounds, which increase the translational value of the article. The authors address both the prevention and reversal of fentanyl-derived respiratory depression. The experimental design and data interpretation are rigorous and appropriate controls were used in the study. Multiple doses were screened in the study and the approaches were multipronged. The authors demonstrated the activation of NTS cells using multiple techniques and the study links peripheral activation of mu opioid receptors to central activation of NTS cells. Both males and females were used in the experiments. The authors demonstrate the peripheral restriction of naloxone methiodide.

      Weaknesses:

      Nalaxone is already broadly used to prevent overdoses from opioids so in some respects, the effects reported here are somewhat incremental.

      The reviewer is correct that naloxone is the standard antidote for reversing opioid-induced respiratory depression. However, its limitations, including the risk of precipitated withdrawal, are well-documented in both preclinical and clinical studies. The likelihood of withdrawal increases when multiple doses of naloxone are administered. Since naloxone-induced withdrawal is centrally mediated, this study aimed to evaluate a peripherally restricted MOR antagonist for its ability to prevent or reverse fentanyl-induced respiratory depression. A key finding is that NLXM reversed OIRD without inducing aversive behavior. This suggests that peripheral antagonists like NLXM may be integrated into intervention strategies that save lives while preventing the adverse behavioral and physiological effects that are observed after treatment with naloxone.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript outlines a series of very exciting and game-changing experiments examining the role of peripheral MORs in OIRD. The authors outline experiments that demonstrate a peripherally restricted MOR antagonist (NLX Methiodide) can rescue fentanyl-induced respiratory depression and this effect coincides with a lack of conditioned place aversion. This approach would be a massive boon to the OUD community, as there are a multitude of clinical reports showing that naloxone rescue post fentanyl over-intoxication is more aversive than the potential loss-of-life to the individuals involved. This important study reframes our understanding of successful overdose rescue with potential for reduced aversive withdrawal effects.

      Strengths:

      Strengths include the plethora of approaches arriving at the same general conclusion, the inclusion of both sexes and the result that a peripheral approach for OIRD rescue may side-step severe negative withdrawal symptoms of traditional NLX rescue.

      Weaknesses:

      The major weakness of this version relates to the data analysis assessed sex-specific contributors to the results.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Some points for the authors to consider are:

      (1) In the Abstract, it is unclear why "high potency and lipophilicity" contribute to opioid-induced respiratory depression.

      The higher potency of fentanyl compared to other opioids significantly increases the risk of overdose and subsequent respiratory depression. Its high lipophilicity facilitates rapid absorption and central nervous system penetration, which contributes to the rapid onset of these cardiorespiratory depression. The narrow therapeutic window of fentanyl further emphasizes the critical need for timely intervention when an overdose has occurred, and effective antagonists to reverse respiratory depression and save lives. We have revised the abstract to clarify these points.

      (2) Are the doses of fentanyl used in the study (2, 20, or 50 µg/kg IV) relevant to those achieved by fentanyl-exposed human drug users?

      In these studies, we intravenously administered three doses of fentanyl. The human equivalent doses (HED) of 20ug/kg and 50 ug/kg fentanyl are ~3 ug/kg and ~8 ug/kg, respectively. These doses have previously been shown to induce respiratory depression in humans (Dahan et al.,2005).

      (3) In Figure 1, it appeared that only a small fraction of tyrosine hydroxylase-positive (TH+) neurons expressed cFos in response to fentanyl, and the degree of cFos expression was largely similar across all fentanyl doses tested. Thus, it is unclear whether TH+ neurons play a role in fentanyl-induced respiratory depression, and the value of these data is unclear (see point #6 below also).

      As shown in the mean data, the lowest dose of fentanyl, which was below the threshold for inducing OIRD, activated approximately 50% of tyrosine hydroxylase-positive (TH+) nTS neurons. In contrast, the highest dose of fentanyl resulted in a statistically significant increase, with ~75% of TH+ cells co-expressing Fos-IR.

      We included the assessment of catecholaminergic nTS cells for several reasons. The regions of the nTS evaluated in this study contains high expression of MOR and are the termination points of sensory afferent fibers transmitting cardiorespiratory information to the nTS (Aicher et al., 2000; Furdui et al., 2024). Catecholaminergic cells receive direct excitatory inputs from visceral afferents (Appleyard et al., 2007) and exhibit intensity-dependent increases in Fos-IR in rats exposed to hypoxic air (Kline et al., 2010; King et al., 2012). These neurons are essential for generating appropriate cardiorespiratory responses to hypoxic challenges (Bathina et al., 2013; King et al., 2015). As the reviewer notes, rats exposed to fentanyl exhibit a high degree of Fos-IR in the nTS, including catecholaminergic neurons. Despite the robust fentanyl-induced activation (increased Fos-IR) nTS neurons, yet there appears to be a failure to initiate appropriate chemoreflex-mediated cardiorespiratory responses. Our photometry data further indicate that fentanyl-induced changes in neuronal activity are mediated, in part, by peripheral MOR. Collectively, these findings suggest that fentanyl impacts nTS activity through alterations in peripheral afferent signaling to the nTS, which may contribute to the severity and duration of OIRD.

      (4) It would help with the flow of the paper if the pharmacokinetic data shown in Figure 6 were presented earlier (as part of Figure 2).

      We have moved the biodistribution data earlier in the manuscript, now presenting it as Figure 2. The numbering of all subsequent figures has been adjusted accordingly.

      (5) In Figure 5, there appears to be a large number of GCaMP-expressing neurons located outside the nTS. To what degree can the changes in calcium signaling, attributed to alterations in neural activity in the nTS, be explained by altered activity of neurons located outside the nTS?

      The reviewer is correct that our viral spread extends beyond the boundaries of the nTS, raising the possibility that the responses observed in Figure 5 may be influenced by neural activity of cells outside the nTS. While some viral spread beyond the target region is unavoidable, calcium transients were measured at the tip of the fiber, which was positioned directly within the nTS.

      To address this concern further, we performed Fos immunohistochemistry in a subset of animals that received bilateral GCaMP virus injections into the nTS. Following fentanyl administration (50 µg/kg IV), brains were collected two hours later. As shown in the accompanying image, we observed Fos-IR co-expression with GCaMP exclusively within the nTS boundaries. No Fos-IR was detected outside the nTS, including in GCaMP cells. Taken together, these findings support our conclusion that the data depicted in our photometry figure (now Figure 6) accurately represent fentanyl-induced activity changes in nTS neurons.

      Author response image 1.

      Arrowheads: Fos-negative GCaMP cell; Arrows: Co-labeled Fos/GCaMP cell; Asterisk: Fos+ GCaMP-negative cell

      (6) Currently, the cFos and photometry data are descriptive in nature. Are opioid-induced changes in nTS neural activity relevant to respiratory depression? If so, one might expect DREADD-mediated stimulation of the nTS neural activity (or stimulating nTS activity by some other means) would reverse fentanyl-induced respiratory depression similar to naloxone and methyl-naloxone.

      The reviewer raises an interesting point regarding the relevance of the nTS in the context of OIRD. The nTS is a major site of integration of sensory afferent information and involved in the initiation of reflex responses that facilitate a return to homeostasis. As described above, we characterized the collective response of nTS neurons to intravenous fentanyl using both Fos immunohistochemistry and fiber photometry. Our data indicate that fentanyl-induced changes in nTS activity are strongly mediated by peripheral MOR. While the suggestion to use global chemogenetic activation of nTS neurons to reverse fentanyl-induced respiratory depression is intriguing, results from these experiments may be difficult to interpret due to the extensive heterogeneity of the nTS. However, we are currently conducting similar experiments using a more selective approach that will allow us to isolate and evaluate specific nTS phenotypes to better understand their contributions to OIRD.

      (7) Are peripherally restricted mu opioid receptor (MOR) agonists available? If so, it would strengthen the paper if such compounds could be used to show that stimulation of peripheral MORs is sufficient to induce respiratory distress independent of actions on centrally located MORs.

      Peripherally acting Mu Opioid Receptor Antagonists (PAMORAs) are indeed available and currently being evaluated in our laboratory.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Consider having the figures/data numbered in the order that they appear in the manuscript. Right now, Figure 6 is mentioned between Figures 1 and 2 (minor).

      Thank you for this suggestion. We have reordered the figures so that the biodistribution figure appears before the MOR antagonist pretreatment and reversal figures.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      This manuscript outlines a series of very exciting and game-changing experiments examining the role of peripheral MORs in OIRD. The authors outline experiments that demonstrate a peripherally restricted MOR antagonist (NLX Methiodide) can rescue fentanyl-induced respiratory depression and this effect coincides with a lack of conditioned place aversion. This approach would be a massive boon to the OUD community, as there are a multitude of clinical reports showing that naloxone rescue post fentanyl over-intoxication is more aversive than the potential loss-of-life to the individuals involved. This important study reframes our understanding of successful overdose rescue with potential for reduced aversive withdrawal effects.

      While this is an exciting and important study, there are a few minor to moderate critiques for the authors to consider. These are below.

      (1) Title: "devoid of aversive effects" - While CPA is a good, cumulative indicator of potential aversive effects, it is not an exhaustive one. Since no other withdrawal measures were included, this is an overstatement.

      The reviewer is correct in noting that our analysis of aversive effects is not exhaustive. Since we only assessed changes in aversive behavior between NLX and NLXM, we believe it is more accurate to modify the title accordingly. We have changed the title from “devoid of aversive effects” to “devoid of aversive behavior” better reflect the scope of the experiments conducted.

      (2) Page 3, top line: MOR (mu opioid receptor) is highly expressed...

      An article should likely be included prior to MOR or make plural and adjust the sentence.

      Thank you for this suggestion. We have reworked this section in the manuscript.

      (3) Figure 6D: this figure is very important for the interpretation of every single figure. It should either be moved to figure 1 or 2 or combined with figure 1 or 2.

      Thank you for this suggestion. The biodistribution figure has been moved to Figure 2.

      (4) Page 5, line 164, Figure 21-D: remove the 1.

      Done.

      (5) Sex differences (or lack thereof):

      Throughout the manuscript, the authors report a lack of sex differences. However, while the data is not powered for the distinction of sex differences, there appears to be a bi-modal distribution of the individual data points that likely correspond to sex across most experiments. For example, in Figure 2E there are both color and clear dots, which this reviewer assumes indicates sex (however, this wasn't easily apparent if it was commented on at all in the paper). If you look at the saline oxygen saturation (nadir) levels (2e), there is wide variability with the red-filled circles, but not the clear ones. This may indicate a bimodal distribution (and may be related to the baseline HR sex differences highlighted). This is also the case in Figure 2L but is perhaps more obvious in the CPA score data (Figure 4d), where it seems the nlx negative CPA effects were likely driven primarily by one sex. While this reviewer does not expect a full powering of experiments for sex differences (and also is very appreciative of the inclusion of both sexes), full raw data with sex indicated included in the supplemental data would greatly aid the field in general and allow for those with a specific interest in this area to build upon this data. Additionally, further discussion regarding the potential role of sex differences in the translational value of these findings is also warranted.

      For all bar graphs, open symbols represent females and filled symbols represent males. This information can be found in the first paragraph of the Materials and Methods section. We have also added this information to each figure for increased visibility. We appreciate the acknowledgement of our inclusion of both sexes. For all experiments, we attempted to balance by sex. Unfortunately, we occasionally had to exclude animals for technical reasons (with clogged catheters being the most common reason for exclusion). This sometimes led to an imbalance in sex in some groups, as the reviewer has noted. In the graph of oxygen saturation nadir values in Fig 2E (now Fig 3E in the revised manuscript, all animals received intravenous fentanyl at a dose of 20 ug/kg. The reviewer is correct that there is greater variability in the males (filled symbols) compared to the females (open symbols) in this graph. However, this variability in the distribution was not observed in Fig 1E or Fig 4E, in which male and female rats received an identical dose of 20 ug/kg. Taking this into account, our overall interpretation of the data is that there is relatively minor sex difference in the responses observed after intravenous fentanyl, and the variability in Fig 3E is primarily due to a lower n compared to Fig 1E.

      All raw data will be uploaded to a data repository.

      (6) Page 7, line 209: Figure 5D should be Figure 6D.

      We have incorporated this change.

      (7) Page 8, line 267: Cure should be Curve.

      We have incorporated this change.

      (8) Discussion: Page10, line322 states that "no detectable NLX ... was found in brain tissue". This is incorrect based on Figure 6.

      The sentence the reviewer highlighted refers to detection of NLX or NLXM in brain tissue from animals that received intravenous NLXM. As demonstrated in the biodistribution figure (now Figure 2 in the manuscript), our data demonstrate that an intravenous injection of NLXM did not result in NLX formation in the brain. We have reworked the sentence for clarity.

      (9) jGCaMP injections: Figure 5B/c shows the distribution of the gcamp across animals. The optic fiber is placed directly over the NTs. However, how are we certain there isn't a nearby nuclei/structure outside the NTS that is contributing to the photometry data presented in D-G?

      See our above comment.  

      (10) Fiber Photometry and Sex: These studies unfortunately may have had only 1 of a sex included in the fiber photometry data. While the inclusion is overall good, the single value for a sex suggests that there are differences, given the clustering of the data. While the anesthesia may be driving this potential sex effect, it is not clear based on the data presented. For reference: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12975-012-0229-y

      The reviewer is correct that there was an imbalance of sex in this dataset. While we made every attempt to balance for sex across all experiments, we unfortunately had to exclude some animals for technical reasons (clogged catheter, missed injection site, etc). This produced an imbalance in our photometry studies and did not allow us to thoroughly evaluate sex differences in fentanyl-induced changes in neural activity or in the responses to anesthesia. We have expanded on this limitation in the discussion.

      (11) Figure 5 - the bars are not the color indicated by the legend.

      We have corrected this in the figure. Thank you.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer #1:

      While very positive towards our manuscript, this reviewer also points out three suggestions for improvement.

      Overall, there are not many weaknesses. The main one I noticed is with the lipidomic analysis shown in Figs 3C, 7C, S1 and S3. While these data are an essential part of the analysis and provide strong evidence for the conclusions of the study, it is unfortunate that the methods used did not enable the distinction between two 18:1 isomers. These two isomers of 18:1 are important in C. elegans biology, because one is a substrate for FAT-2 (18:1n-9, oleic acid) and the other is not (18:1n-7, cis vaccenic acid). Although rarer in mammals, cisvaccenic acid is the most abundant fatty acid in C. elegans and is likely the most important structural MUFA. The measurement of these two isomers is not essential for the conclusions of the study, but the manuscript should include a comment about the abundance of oleic vs vaccenic acid in C. elegans (authors can find this information, even in the fat-2 mutant, in other publications of C. elegans fatty acid composition). Otherwise, readers who are not familiar with C. elegans might assume the 18:1 that is reported is likely to be mainly oleic acid, as is common in mammals.

      Excellent point. As suggested by the reviewer, we now include a clarification of this in the text: "Consistent with previous publications [10], the levels of 18:1 fatty acids were greatly increased in the fat-2(wa17) mutant. It is important to note that the majority of these 18:1 fatty acids is likely 18:1n7 (vaccenic acid) and not 18:1n9 (OA) [10,23], which is the substrate of FAT-2; the lipid analysis methods used here are not able to distinguish between the two 18:1 species."

      The title could be less specific; it might be confusing to readers to include the allele name in the title.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion, and we have now modified the title:

      "Forward Genetics In C. elegans Reveals Genetic Adaptations To Polyunsaturated Fatty Acid Deficiency"

      There are two errors in the pathway depicted in Figure 1A. The16:0-16:1 desaturation can be performed by FAT-5, FAT-6, and FAT-7. The 18:0-18:1 desaturation can only be performed by FAT-6 and FAT-7.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out this mistake. The pathway in Fig. 1A has been corrected.

      Reviewer #2:

      This reviewer was also very positive towards our manuscript but also pointed out several suggestions for additional experiments or changes to the manuscript.

      Major recommendations

      (1) To conclude that membrane rigidification is not the major cause of defects associated with fat-2 mutations, the authors need to show that fluidity is rescued by their treatments (oleic acid or NP-40). I honestly doubt that it is the case, as oleic acid is already abundant in fat-2 mutants. It is possible that the treatments, which are effective in rescuing fluidity in paqr-2 mutants, do not have the same effects in fat-2 mutants.

      The reviewer raises an important point. In an effort to address this, we have now performed a FRAP study on fat-2(wa17) mutants with/without NP40 as a fluidizing agent (with wild-type and paqr-2 mutants as controls). The new data, now included as Fig. 2J, shows that NP40 did improve the fluidity of the intestinal cell membrane in the fat-2(wa17) mutant, though not to the same degree as in the paqr-2 mutant. This is now cited in the text as follows:

      "However, cultivating the fat-2(wa17) mutant in the presence of the non-ionic detergent NP40, which improves the growth of the paqr-2(tm3410) mutant [17], did not suppress the poor growth phenotype of the fat-2(wa17) mutant even though it did improve membrane fluidity as measured using FRAP (Fig. 2I-J). Similarly, supplementing the fat-2(wa17) mutant with the MUFA oleic acid (OA, 18:1), which also suppresses paqr-2(tm3410) phenotypes [17], did not suppress the poor growth phenotype of the fat-2(wa17) mutant (Fig 2K)."

      (2) It is not validated experimentally that the mutations converge into FTN-2 repression. This can be verified by analyzing mRNA or protein expression of FTN-2 in the egl-9 and hif-1 mutants obtained in the screening.

      Our manuscript does lean on several publications that previously established the HIF-1 pathway in C. elegans. Additionally, we now added a qPCR experiment showing that the newly isolated hif-1(et69) allele indeed suppresses the expression of ftn-2. This was an especially valuable experiment since the hif-1(et69) is proposed to act as a gain-of-function allele that would constitutively suppress ftn-2 expression. This new result is included as Fig. 6C and mentioned in the text:

      "Inhibition of egl-9 promotes HIF-1 activity [41], which we here verified for the egl-9(et60) allele using western blots (Fig 6A). Additionally, we found by qPCR that ftn-2 mRNA levels are as expected reduced by the proposed gain-of-function hif-1(et69) allele (Fig 6C). We conclude that the egl-9 and hif-1 suppressor mutations likely converge on inhibiting ftn-2 and thus act similarly to the ftn-2 loss-of-function alleles."

      (3) In the hif-1(et69) and ftn-2(et68) mutants, the rescues in lipid composition seem to be minor, with eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) levels remaining low. The ftn-2 mutant data is especially concerning, as it suggests that egl-9 mutants rescue lipid composition via distinct mechanisms not including ftn-2 suppression. I suggest that the authors test the minimal doses of linoleic acid or EPA required to rescue fat-2 mutants and perform lipidomics to test which is the degree of EPA restoration that is needed. If a low level of restoration is sufficient, the hif-1 and ftn-2 mutants might indeed rescue phenotypes via a restoration of EPA levels. Otherwise, other mechanisms have to be considered.

      In line with the above issue, the low level or EPA restoration in hif-1 and ftn-2 mutants raise the possibility that the mutations rescue fat-2 mutants downstream of lipid changes. The reduction in HIF-1 levels in fat-2 mutants also suggest that lipid changes affect HIF-1 expression. Thus, the "impossibility to genetically compensate PUFA deficiency" might be wrong. The above experiment would answer to this point too.

      The reviewer is entirely correct to consider alternative explanations. In the lipidomics in Fig 3, we see that fat-2(wa17) worms on NGM have only ~1.5-2%mol EPA in phosphatidylcholines. When treated with 2 mM LA, the levels of EPA rise to ~10%mol, still below the ~ 25% observed in N2 but perhaps this is sufficient cause for restoring fat-2(wa17) health. Similarly, the hif-1(et69) and ftn-2(et68) mutant alleles elevate EPA levels to 5- 7% in fat-2(wa17). Thus, we have a correlation where a significant increase in EPA, obtained either through LA supplementation or through suppressor mutations (e.g. egl-9 (et60), hif-1(et69) or ftn-2(et68)), is associated with improved growth and health of the fat-2(wa17) mutant. However, correlation is of course not proof. The suggested experiment to titrate EPA to its lowest fat-2(wa17) rescuing levels and then perform lipidomics analysis was not possible in a reasonable time frame during this revision. However, preliminary experiments showed that even 25 μM LA (most of which will be converted to EPA by the worms) is enough to rescue the fat-2(wa17) or null mutant (Author response image 1), suggesting that even tiny amounts (much below the >250 μM used in our article) bring great benefits.

      Author response image 1.

      Nevertheless, we now acknowledge in the discussion that alternative explanations exist:

      "Other mechanisms are also possible. For example, mutations in the HIF-1 pathway could somehow reduce EPA turnover rates in the fat-2(wa17) mutant and allow its levels to rise above an essential threshold. This hypothesis is consistent with the observation that the suppressors can rescue both the fat-2(wa17) mutant and fat-2 RNAi-treated worms but not the fat-2 null mutant. It is even possible, though deemed unlikely, that the fat-2(wa17) suppressors act by compensating for the PUFA shortage via some undefined separate process downstream of the lipid changes and that they only indirectly result in elevated EPA levels."

      Additionally, another possible mechanism of action of the fat-2(wa17) suppressors could have been that they all cause upregulation of the FAT-2 protein. We have now explored this possibility using Western blots and found that this is an unlikely mechanism. This is presented in Fig. 6D-E and S3C-D, mentioned in the text as follows:

      "We also used Western blots to evaluate the abundance of the FAT-2 protein expressed from endogenous wild-type or mutant loci but to which a HA tag was fused using CRISPR/Cas9. We found that the FAT-2::HA levels are severely reduced when the locus contains the S101F substitution present in the wa17 allele, but restored close to wild-type levels by the fat2(et65) suppressor mutation (Fig 6D-E, S3C-D Fig). The levels of FAT-2 in the HIF-1 pathway suppressors varied between experiments, with the suppressors sometimes restoring FAT-2 levels and sometimes not even when the worms were growing well (Fig 6D-E, S3C-D Fig). The fat-2(wa17) suppressors, except for the intragenic fat-2 alleles, likely do not act by increasing FAT-2 protein levels."

      (4) It should be tested how Fe2+ levels are changed in the mutants, and how effective the ferric ammonium citrate treatment is. The authors might use a ftn-1::GFP reporter for this purpose.

      We did obtain a strain carrying the ftn-1::GFP reporter but could not generate conclusive data with it. In particular, we saw no increase in fluorescence in fat-2(wa17) worms carrying suppressor mutations. However, we also found that even FAC treatment that rescue the fat2(wa17) mutant did not result in a measurable increased GFP levels suggesting that the reporter is not sensitive enough.

      Minor comments

      (1) I think that putting Figure 6A in Figure 5 would be helpful for the readers, so that they understand that the mutations converge in the same pathway.

      This is now done.

      (2) Page 3: While it is clear that paqr-2 regulates lipid composition, I believe that it remains unclear if it "promote the production and incorporation of PUFAs into phospholipids to restore membrane homeostasis".

      A reference was missing to support that statement. Ruiz et al. (2023) is now cited for this (ref. 7).

      (3) C. elegans is extremely rich in EPA (see for example DOI: 10.3390/jcm5020019), but the lipidomics data in this study rather suggest that oleic acid is predominant. I recommend to check why this discrepancy occurs.

      OA (18:1n9) makes up only ~2%, but vaccenic acid (18:1n7) is ~21% in WT worms, EPA is slightly less at ~19% (Watts et al. 2002). These match with our lipidomics results although we cannot distinguish between 18:1n9 and n7. See also answer to Reviewer #1, comment 1.

      (4) Abstract: The authors write that mammals do not synthesize PUFAs, which is almost correct, but they still produce the PUFA mead acid. Thus, the statement is not completely right.

      Didn't know that! From literature, it is our understanding that mammals synthesize mead acid during FA deficiency but not in normal conditions, so they are not regularly producing mead acid. We have now updated the introduction:

      "An exception to this exists during severe essential fatty acid deficiency when mammals can synthesize mead acid (20:3n9), though this is not a common occurrence [11]"

      (5) Page 10: Eicosanoids are C20 lipid mediators, thus those produced from docosahexaenoic acid are not eicosanoids. Correct the statement.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We now write:

      " EPA and DHA, being long chain PUFAs should have similar fluidizing effects on membrane properties (though in vitro experiments challenge this view [78]), and both can serve as precursors of eicosanoids or docosanoids, particularly inflammatory ones [79]."

      (6) Page 7: "hif-1(et69) is similarly able to suppress fat-2(wa17) when ftn-2 is knocked out" I am not sure that the data agrees with this statement, and it is unclear what we can conclude from such observation.

      Fig. 2D shows that ftn-2(et68) suppresses fat-2(wa17) even in the presence of a hif-1(ok2654) null allele, showing that no HIF-1 function is required once ftn-2 is mutated. Conversely, Fig S2E shows that combining both the hif-1(et69) and the ftn-2(ok404) null allele also suppresses fat-2(wa17) (the worms do not fully reach N2 length, but they are significantly longer and were fertile adults); this is merely the expected outcome if the pathway converges on loss of ftn-2 function, though other interpretations could be possible from this experiment alone.

      (7) S3 Fig: in panel B, is the last column ftn-2;egl-9 mutant? I would imagine that it is ftn2;fat-2.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. This has been corrected.

      (8) Fig 6B, how many times has been this experiment done?

      With these exact conditions (6h and 20h hypoxia) and order of strains the blot was done once, but the blot overall was done 5 times. We now added another replicate in Fig. S3A.

      Note also that a few minor modifications have been made throughout the text, which can be seen in the Word file with tracked changes.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Response to the Joint Public Review:

      We are indebted to eLife’s reviewing process for helping us improve our manuscript and for highlighting that our study provides new molecular insights into SFT pathogenesis.  

      Response to Reviewers:

      (1) The authors state that "NAB2-STAT6 localization is exclusively driven by EGR1 binding" yet WT1 motives are also consistently enriched. Can you please touch upon the potential involvement of WT1 (or lack thereof, and why)?

      Our data suggest that EGR1 is the primary driver of NAB2-STAT6 localization. In fact, EGR1 is the most significantly enriched motif (Fig. 4) at NAB2-STAT6 binding sites and we detect an interaction between the fusion protein and EGR1 (Fig. 5). Conversely, we did not identify an interaction between NAB2-STAT6 and WT1. However, WT1 also belongs to the C2H2 zinc finger subclass and recognizes a motif bearing striking similarities to the EGR1/2 consensus. EGR1 has been previously described to bind WT1 motifs and to function as an activator of WT1 targets (as opposed to WT1 repressive abilities). See https://www.jbc.org/article/S0021-9258(20)74720-4/fulltext and https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378111901005935.

      (2) In the description of Figure 5C the authors observe nuclear staining of both NAB2 and STAT6 following NAB2-STAT6 fusion induction. They interpret this as the fusion stimulates nuclear translocation of endogenous NAB2. This statement can only be rigorously made if the authors can unequivocally demonstrate that their antibody exclusively detects endogenous NAB2 and not the NAB2 portion of the fusion. As presented, a more likely interpretation is that the NAB2 staining detects NAB2-STAT6 fusion protein. Since there is some cytoplasmic NAB2 signal still present, the findings in Figure 5c do not support nor disprove nuclear translocation of endogenous NAB2. It may be prudent to remove this section. Figure 5B is currently the best direct evidence of nuclear translocation.

      We agree with the reviewer that Fig. 5C does not rigorously show that NAB2-STAT6 fusion proteins drag endogenous NAB2 into the nucleus. The immunostaining reveals that wt NAB2 localization is overwhelmingly cytoplasmic at steady-state conditions (and prior to expression of the fusion protein). Instead, Figure 5B shows that endogenous NAB2 translocates to the nucleus upon NAB2-STAT6 expression. Additionally, figure 5A (along with Suppl. Fig. 5 E-F) demonstrates that endogenous NAB2 co-precipitates with NAB2-STAT6 fusions in nuclear extracts of U2OS and HEK293T cells. We have rephrased the paragraph accordingly.

      (3) Figure 5D: for the interpretation of the presented data to hold up, namely, NAB1 nuclear translocation upon NAB2-STAT6 expression, it is important to demonstrate that NAB1 antibodies do not cross-react with NAB2 given the similarity between NAB1 and NAB2. Without such control, another likely interpretation of the results in Figure 5D is that NAB1 antibody detects the NAB2 portion of the overexpressed fusion protein. This needs to be acknowledged in the text.

      We had similar concerns, therefore we confirmed that the NAB1 antibody does not cross react with NAB2 by immunoblot (see figure below). We overexpressed FLAG-NAB2, HA-NAB1 and GFP constructs in HEK293T cells, we performed immunoprecipitation with either HA or FLAG from whole cell extracts followed by western blot using anti-NAB2 and anti-NAB1 polyclonal antibodies. We did not observe cross-reactivity of these antibodies. We acknowledged antibody validation in the revised text.

      Author response image 1.

      (4) Also, to support the notion that NAB2-STAT6 fusion promotes nuclear translocation of the entire complex, an imaging approach detecting EGR1 similar to Figure 5C-D would be helpful. EGR1 staining also avoids the potential pitfall of NAB1/2 antibodies detecting NAB2-STAT6 overexpressed fusion instead of endogenous proteins.

      We agree with the reviewer that this would be a helpful approach. Unfortunately, none of the commercially available EGR1 antibodies that we tested were suitable for immunocytochemistry, as they either failed to show a proper signal or were marred by high nonspecific background signal.

      (5) The authors found increased mRNA expression of certain cytokines and secreted neuropeptides in SFTs. While this may be consistent with a secretory phenotype, additional evidence such as detection of elevated levels of these proteins in tumor lysates or in culture media is necessary to formally make this claim. Please rephrase.

      We have rephrased our claims as suggested. The revised text is now as follows: “​​We also identified a distinct secretory gene signature associated with SFTs. In fact, IGF2 is the most upregulated gene, via activation of an intronic enhancer by EGR1. IGF2 was pinpointed as the cause of hypoglycemia occurring in a very small subset of SFTs (Doege–Potter syndrome)(52). Our data suggest that IGF2 (and IGF1) upregulation is a common feature of all SFTs. In addition to insulin-like growth factors, STFs may secrete a host of peptides with diverse functions in neuronal processes, chemotaxis, and growth stimulation. The previously unrecognized neuronal features and the putative secretory phenotype of STFs set them apart from mesenchymal malignancies and relate them to neuroendocrine malignancies such as pheochromocytoma, oligodendroglioma and neuroblastoma.”

      (6) GSEA with 500 randomly selected genes from target datasets needs a more detailed description to clarify the method.

      To improve clarity, we added the following description: “Gene set enrichment analysis (GSEA) was done with 500 randomly selected genes from the given set of genes across the C2 collection of the human molecular signatures database or custom signatures using the GSEA function in clusterProfiler package in R (v4.6.2).

      (7) In the IP-MS description, please double check the NaCl concentration in the second extraction step - 0.5mM seems low. Also, in the IP part, a buffer recipe appears to have been incorrectly pasted.

      We thank the reviewer for identifying this typo. Indeed, we used 0.5M NaCl instead of 0.5mM. We have corrected the co-IP buffer recipe accordingly.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment:

      This important study represents a comprehensive computational analysis of Plasmodium falciparum gene expression, with a focus on var gene expression, in parasites isolated from patients; it assesses changes that occur as the parasites adapt to short-term in vitro culture conditions. The work provides technical advances to update a previously developed computational pipeline. Although the findings of the shifts in the expression of particular var genes have theoretical or practical implications beyond a single subfield, the results are incomplete and the main claims are only partially supported.

      The authors would like to thank the reviewers and editors for their insightful and constructive assessment. We particularly appreciate the statement that our work provides a technical advance of our computational pipeline given that this was one of our main aims. To address the editorial criticisms, we have rephrased and restructured the manuscript to ensure clarity of results and to support our main claims. For the same reason, we removed the var transcript differential expression analysis, as this led to confusion.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1:

      The authors took advantage of a large dataset of transcriptomic information obtained from parasites recovered from 35 patients. In addition, parasites from 13 of these patients were reared for 1 generation in vivo, 10 for 2 generations, and 1 for a third generation. This provided the authors with a remarkable resource for monitoring how parasites initially adapt to the environmental change of being grown in culture. They focused initially on var gene expression due to the importance of this gene family for parasite virulence, then subsequently assessed changes in the entire transcriptome. Their goal was to develop a more accurate and informative computational pipeline for assessing var gene expression and secondly, to document the adaptation process at the whole transcriptome level.

      Overall, the authors were largely successful in their aims. They provide convincing evidence that their new computational pipeline is better able to assemble var transcripts and assess the structure of the encoded PfEMP1s. They can also assess var gene switching as a tool for examining antigenic variation. They also documented potentially important changes in the overall transcriptome that will be important for researchers who employ ex vivo samples for assessing things like drug sensitivity profiles or metabolic states. These are likely to be important tools and insights for researchers working on field samples.

      One concern is that the abstract highlights "Unpredictable var gene switching..." and states that "Our results cast doubt on the validity of the common practice of using short-term cultured parasites...". This seems somewhat overly pessimistic with regard to var gene expression profiling and does not reflect the data described in the paper. In contrast, the main text of the paper repeatedly refers to "modest changes in var gene expression repertoire upon culture" or "relatively small changes in var expression from ex vivo to culture", and many additional similar assessments. On balance, it seems that transition to culture conditions causes relatively minor changes in var gene expression, at least in the initial generations. The authors do highlight that a few individuals in their analysis showed more pronounced and unpredictable changes, which certainly warrants caution for future studies but should not obscure the interesting observation that var gene expression remained relatively stable during transition to culture.

      Thank you for this comment. We were happy to modify the wording in the abstract to have consistency with the results presented by highlighting that modest but unpredictable var gene switching was observed while substantial changes were found in the core transcriptome. Moreover, any differences observed in core transcriptome between ex vivo samples from naïve and pre-exposed patients are diminished after one cycle of cultivation making inferences about parasite biology in vivo impossible.

      Therefore, – to our opinion – the statement in the last sentence is well supported by the data presented.

      Line 43–47: “Modest but unpredictable var gene switching and convergence towards var2csa were observed in culture, along with differential expression of 19% of the core transcriptome between paired ex vivo and generation 1 samples. Our results cast doubt on the validity of the common practice of using short-term cultured parasites to make inferences about in vivo phenotype and behaviour.” Nevertheless, we would like to note that this study was in a unique position to assess changes at the individual patient level as we had successive parasite generations. This comparison is not done in most cross-sectional studies and therefore these small, unpredictable changes in the var transcriptome are missed.

      Reviewer #2:

      In this study, the authors describe a pipeline to sequence expressed var genes from RNA sequencing that improves on a previous one that they had developed. Importantly, they use this approach to determine how var gene expression changes with short-term culture. Their finding of shifts in the expression of particular var genes is compelling and casts some doubt on the comparability of gene expression in short-term culture versus var expression at the time of participant sampling. The authors appear to overstate the novelty of their pipeline, which should be better situated within the context of existing pipelines described in the literature.

      Other studies have relied on short-term culture to understand var gene expression in clinical malaria studies. This study indicates the need for caution in over-interpreting findings from these studies.

      The novel method of var gene assembly described by the authors needs to be appropriately situated within the context of previous studies. They neglect to mention several recent studies that present transcript-level novel assembly of var genes from clinical samples. It is important for them to situate their work within this context and compare and contrast it accordingly. A table comparing all existing methods in terms of pros and cons would be helpful to evaluate their method.

      We are grateful for this suggestion and agree that a table comparing the pros and cons of all existing methods would be helpful for the general reader and also highlight the key advantages of our new approach. A table comparing previous methods for var gene and transcript characterisation has been added to the manuscript and is referenced in the introduction (line 107).

      Author response table 1.

      Comparison of previous var assembly approaches based on DNA- and RNA-sequencing.

      Reviewer #3:

      This work focuses on the important problem of how to access the highly polymorphic var gene family using short-read sequence data. The approach that was most successful, and utilized for all subsequent analyses, employed a different assembler from their prior pipeline, and impressively, more than doubles the N50 metric.

      The authors then endeavor to utilize these improved assemblies to assess differential RNA expression of ex vivo and short-term cultured samples, and conclude that their results "cast doubt on the validity" of using short-term cultured parasites to infer in vivo characteristics. Readers should be aware that the various approaches to assess differential expression lack statistical clarity and appear to be contradictory. Unfortunately, there is no attempt to describe the rationale for the different approaches and how they might inform one another.

      It is unclear whether adjusting for life-cycle stage as reported is appropriate for the var-only expression models. The methods do not appear to describe what type of correction variable (continuous/categorical) was used in each model, and there is no discussion of the impact on var vs. core transcriptome results.

      We agree with the reviewer that the different methods and results of the var transcriptome analysis can be difficult to reconcile. To address this, we have included a summary table with a brief description of the rationale and results of each approach in our analysis pipeline.

      Author response table 2.

      Summary of the different levels of analysis performed to assess the effect of short-term parasite culturing on var and core gene expression, their rational, method, results, and interpretation.

      Additionally, the var transcript differential expression analysis was removed from the manuscript, because this study was in a unique position to perform a more focused analysis of var transcriptional changes across paired samples, meaning the per-patient approach was more suitable. This allowed for changes in the var transcriptome to be identified that would have gone unnoticed in the traditional differential expression analysis.

      We thank the reviewer for his highly important comment about adjusting for life cycle stage. Var gene expression is highly stage-dependent, so any quantitative comparison between samples does need adjustment for developmental stage. All life cycle stage adjustments were done using the mixture model proportions to be consistent with the original paper, described in the results and methods sections:

      • Line 219–221: “Due to the potential confounding effect of differences in stage distribution on gene expression, we adjusted for developmental stage determined by the mixture model in all subsequent analyses.”

      • Line 722–725: “Var gene expression is highly stage dependent, so any quantitative comparison between samples needs adjustment for developmental stage. The life cycle stage proportions determined from the mixture model approach were used for adjustment.“

      The rank-expression analysis did not have adjustment for life cycle stage as the values were determined as a percentage contribution to the total var transcriptome. The var group level and the global var gene expression analyses were adjusted for life cycle stages, by including them as an independent variable, as described in the results and methods sections.

      Var group expression:

      • Line 321–326: “Due to these results, the expression of group A var genes vs. group B and C var genes was investigated using a paired analysis on all the DBLα (DBLα1 vs DBLα0 and DBLα2) and NTS (NTSA vs NTSB) sequences assembled from ex vivo samples and across multiple generations in culture. A linear model was created with group A expression as the response variable, the generation and life cycle stage as independent variables and the patient information included as a random effect. The same was performed using group B and C expression levels.“

      • Line 784–787: “DESeq2 normalisation was performed, with patient identity and life cycle stage proportions included as covariates and differences in the amounts of var transcripts of group A compared with groups B and C assessed (Love et al., 2014). A similar approach was repeated for NTS domains.”

      Gobal var gene expression:

      • Line 342–347: “A linear model was created (using only paired samples from ex vivo and generation 1) (Supplementary file 1) with proportion of total gene expression dedicated to var gene expression as the response variable, the generation and life cycle stage as independent variables and the patient information included as a random effect. This model showed no significant differences between generations, suggesting that differences observed in the raw data may be a consequence of small changes in developmental stage distribution in culture.”

      • Line 804–806: “Significant differences in total var gene expression were tested by constructing a linear model with the proportion of gene expression dedicated to var gene expression as the response variable, the generation and life cycle stage as an independent variables and the patient identity included as a random effect.“

      The analysis of the conserved var gene expression was adjusted for life cycle stage:

      • Line 766–768: “For each conserved gene, Salmon normalised read counts (adjusted for life cycle stage) were summed and expression compared across the generations using a pairwise Wilcoxon rank test.”

      And life cycle stage estimates were included as covariates in the design matrix for the domain differential expression analysis:

      • Line 771–773: “DESeq2 was used to test for differential domain expression, with five expected read counts in at least three patient isolates required, with life cycle stage and patient identity used as covariates.”

      Reviewer #1:

      1. In the legend to Figure 1, the authors cite "Deitsch and Hviid, 2004" for the classification of different var gene types. This is not the best reference for this work. Better citations would be Kraemer and Smith, Mol Micro, 2003 and Lavstsen et al, Malaria J, 2003.

      We agree and have updated the legend in Figure 1 with these references, consistent with the references cited in the introduction.

      1. In Figures 2 and 3, each of the boxes in the flow charts are largely filled with empty space while the text is nearly too small to read. Adjusting the size of the text would improve legibility.

      We have increased the size of the text in these figures.

      1. My understanding of the computational method for assessing global var gene expression indicates an initial step of identifying reads containing the amino acid sequence LARSFADIG. It is worth noting that VAR2CSA does not contain this motif. Will the pipeline therefore miss expression of this gene, and if so, how does this affect the assessment of global var gene assessment? This seems relevant given that the authors detect increased expression of var2csa during adaptation to culture.

      To address this question, we have added an explanation in the methods section to better explain our analysis. Var2csa was not captured in the global var gene expression analysis, but was analyzed separately because of its unique properties (conservation, proposed role in regulating var gene switching, slightly divergent timing of expression, translational repression).

      • Line 802/3: “Var2csa does not contain the LARSFADIG motif, hence this quantitative analysis of global var gene expression excluded var2csa (which was analysed separately).”
      1. In Figures 4 and 7, panels a and b display virtually identical PCA plots, with the exception that panel A displays more generations. Why are both panels included? There doesn't appear to be any additional information provided by panel B.

      We agree and have removed Figure 7b for the core transcriptome PCA as it did not provide any new information. The var transcript differential analysis (displayed in Figure 4) has been removed from the manuscript.

      1. On line 560-567, the authors state "However, the impact of short-term culture was the most apparent at the var transcript level and became less clear at higher levels." What are the high levels being referred to here?

      We have replaced this sentence to make it clearer what the different levels are (global var gene expression, var domain and var type).

      • Line 526/7: “However, the impact of short-term culture was the most apparent at the var transcript level and became less clear at the var domain, var type and global var gene expression level.”

      Reviewer #2:

      The authors make no mention or assessment of previously published var gene assembly methods from clinical samples that focus on genomic or transcriptomic approaches. These include:

      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28351419/

      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34846163/

      These methods should be compared to the method for var gene assembly outlined by the co-authors, especially as the authors say that their method "overcomes previous limitations and outperforms current methods" (128-129). The second reference above appears to be a method to measure var expression in clinical samples and so should be particularly compared to the approach outlined by the authors.

      Thank you for pointing this out. We have included the second reference in the introduction of our revised manuscript, where we refer to var assembly and quantification from RNA-sequencing data. We abstained from including the first paper in this paragraph (Dara et al., 2017) as it describes a var gene assembly pipeline and not a var transcript assembly pipeline.

      • Line 101–105: “While approaches for var assembly and quantification based on RNA-sequencing have recently been proposed (Wichers et al., 2021; Stucke et al., 2021; Andrade et al., 2020; TonkinHill et al., 2018, Duffy et al., 2016), these still produce inadequate assembly of the biologically important N-terminal domain region, have a relatively high number of misassemblies and do not provide an adequate solution for handling the conserved var variants (Table S1).”

      Additionally, we have updated the manuscript with a table (Table S1) comparing these two methods plus other previously used var transcript/gene assembly approaches (see comment to the public reviews).

      But to address this particular comment in more detail, the first paper (Dara et al., 2017) is a var gene assembly pipeline and not a var transcript assembly pipeline. It is based on assembling var exon 1 from unfished whole genome assemblies of clinical samples and requires a prior step for filtering out human DNA. The authors used two different assemblers, Celera for short reads (which is no longer maintained) and Sprai for long reads (>2000bp), but found that Celera performed worse than Sprai, and subsequently used Sprai assemblies. Therefore, this method does not appear to be suitable for assembling short reads from RNA-seq.

      The second paper (Stucke et al. 2021) focusses more on enriching for parasite RNA, which precedes assembly. The capture method they describe would complement downstream analysis of var transcript assembly with our pipeline. Their assembly pipeline is similar to our pipeline as they also performed de novo assembly on all P. falciparum mapping and non-human mapping reads and used the same assembler (but with different parameters). They clustered sequences using the same approach but at 90% sequence identity as opposed to 99% sequence identity using our approach. Then, Stucke et al. use 500nt as a cut-off as opposed to the more stringent filtering approach used in our approach. They annotated their de novo assembled transcripts with the known amino acid sequences used in their design of the capture array; our approach does not assume prior information on the var transcripts. Finally, their approach was validated only for its ability to recover the most highly expressed var transcript in 6 uncomplicated malaria samples, and they did not assess mis-assemblies in their approach.

      For the methods (619–621), were erythrocytes isolated by Ficoll gradient centrifugation at the time of collection or later?

      We have updated the methods section to clarify this.

      • Line 586–588: “Blood was drawn and either immediately processed (#1, #2, #3, #4, #11, #12, #14, #17, #21, #23, #28, #29, #30, #31, #32) or stored overnight at 4oC until processing (#5, #6, #7, #9, #10, #13, #15, #16, #18, #19, #20, #22, #24, #25, #26, #27, #33).”

      Was the current pipeline and assembly method assessed for var chimeras? This should be described.

      Yes, this was quantified in the Pf 3D7 dataset and also assessed in the German traveler dataset. For the 3D7 dataset it is described in the result section and Figure S1.

      • Line 168–174: “However, we found high accuracies (> 0.95) across all approaches, meaning the sequences we assembled were correct (Figure 2 – Figure supplement 1b). The whole transcript approach also performed the best when assembling the lower expressed var genes (Figure 2 – Figure supplement 1e) and produced the fewest var chimeras compared to the original approach on P. falciparum 3D7. Fourteen misassemblies were observed with the whole transcript approach compared to 19 with the original approach (Table S2). This reduction in misassemblies was particularly apparent in the ring-stage samples.” - Figure S1:

      Author response image 1.

      Performance of novel computational pipelines for var assembly on Plasmodium falciparum 3D7: The three approaches (whole transcript: blue, domain approach: orange, original approach: green) were applied to a public RNA-seq dataset (ENA: PRJEB31535) of the intra-erythrocytic life cycle stages of 3 biological replicates of cultured P. falciparum 3D7, sampled at 8-hour intervals up until 40hrs post infection (bpi) and then at 4-hour intervals up until 48 (Wichers al., 2019). Boxplots show the data from the 3 biological replicates for each time point in the intra-erythrocytic life cycle: a) alignment scores for the dominantly expressed var gene (PF3D7_07126m), b) accuracy scores for the dominantly var gene (PF3D7_0712600), c) number of contigs to assemble the dominant var gene (PF3D7_0712600), d) alignment scores for a middle ranking expressed vargene (PF3D7_0937800), e) alignment scores for the lowest expressed var gene (PF3D7_0200100). The first best blast hit (significance threshold = le-10) was chosen for each contig. The alignment score was used to evaluate the each method. The alignment score represents √accuracy* recovery. The accuracy is the proportion of bases that are correct in the assembled transcript and the recovery reflects what proportion of the true transcript was assembled. Assembly completeness of the dominant vargene (PF3D7 071200, length = 6648nt) for the three approaches was assessed for each biological f) biological replicate 1, g) biological replicate 2, h) biological replicate 3. Dotted lines represent the start and end of the contigs required to assemble the vargene. Red bars represent assembled sequences relative to the dominantly whole vargene sequence, where we know the true sequence (termed “reference transcript”).

      For the ex vivo samples, this has been discussed in the result section and now we also added this information to Table 1.

      • Line 182/3: “Remarkably, with the new whole transcript method, we observed a significant decrease (2 vs 336) in clearly misassembled transcripts with, for example, an N-terminal domain at an internal position.”

      • Table 1:

      Author response table 3.

      Statistics for the different approaches used to assemble the var transcripts. Var assembly approaches were applied to malaria patient ex vivo samples (n=32) from (Wichers et al., 2021) and statistics determined. Given are the total number of assembled var transcripts longer than 500 nt containing at least one significantly annotated var domain, the maximum length of the longest assembled var transcript in nucleotides and the N50 value, respectively. The N50 is defined as the sequence length of the shortest var contig, with all var contigs greater than or equal to this length together accounting for 50% of the total length of concatenated var transcript assemblies. Misassemblies represents the number of misassemblies for each approach. **Number of misassemblies were not determined for the domain approach due to its poor performance in other metrics.

      Line 432: "the core gene transcriptome underwent a greater change relative to the var transcriptome upon transition to culture." Can this be shown statistically? It's unclear whether the difference in the sizes of the respective pools of the core genome and the var genes may account for this observation.

      We found 19% of the core transcriptome to be differentially expressed. The per patient var transcript analysis revealed individually highly variable but generally rather subtle changes in the var transcriptome. The different methods for assessing this make it difficult to statistically compare these two different results.

      The feasibility of this approach for field samples should be discussed in the Discussion.

      In the original manuscript we reflected on this already several times in the discussion (e.g., line 465/6; line 471–475; line 555–568). We now have added another two sentences at the end of the paragraph starting in line 449 to address this point. It reads now:

      • Line 442–451: “Our new approach used the most geographically diverse reference of var gene sequences to date, which improved the identification of reads derived from var transcripts. This is crucial when analysing patient samples with low parasitaemia where var transcripts are hard to assemble due to their low abundancy (Guillochon et al., 2022). Our approach has wide utility due to stable performance on both laboratory-adapted and clinical samples. Concordance in the different var expression profiling approaches (RNA-sequencing and DBLα-tag) on ex vivo samples increased using the new approach by 13%, when compared to the original approach (96% in the whole transcript approach compared to 83% in Wichers et al., 2021. This suggests the new approach provides a more accurate method for characterising var genes, especially in samples collected directly from patients. Ultimately, this will allow a deeper understanding of relationships between var gene expression and clinical manifestations of malaria.”

      MINOR

      The plural form of PfEMP1 (PfEMP1s) is inconsistently used throughout the text.

      Corrected.

      404-405: statistical test for significance?

      Thank you for this suggestion. We have done two comparisons between the original analysis from Wichers et al., 2021 and our new whole transcript approach to test concordance of the RNAseq approaches with the DBLα-tag approach using paired Wilcoxon tests. These comparisons suggest that our new approach has significantly increased concordance with DBLα-tag data and might be better at capturing all expressed DBLα domains than the original analysis (and the DBLα-approach), although not statistically significant. We describe this now in the result section.

      • Line 352–361: “Overall, we found a high agreement between the detected DBLα-tag sequences and the de novo assembled var transcripts. A median of 96% (IQR: 93–100%) of all unique DBLα-tag sequences detected with >10 reads were found in the RNA-sequencing approach. This is a significant improvement on the original approach (p= 0.0077, paired Wilcoxon test), in which a median of 83% (IQR: 79–96%) was found (Wichers et al., 2021). To allow for a fair comparison of the >10 reads threshold used in the DBLα-tag approach, the upper 75th percentile of the RNA-sequencingassembled DBLα domains were analysed. A median of 77.4% (IQR: 61–88%) of the upper 75th percentile of the assembled DBLα domains were found in the DBLα-tag approach. This is a lower median percentage than the median of 81.3% (IQR: 73–98%) found in the original analysis (p= 0.28, paired Wilcoxon test) and suggests the new assembly approach is better at capturing all expressed DBLα domains.”

      Figure 4: The letters for the figure panels need to be added.

      The figure has been removed from the manuscript.

      Reviewer #3:

      It is difficult from Table S2 to determine how many unique var transcripts would have enough coverage to be potentially assembled from each sample. It seems unlikely that 455 distinct vars (~14 per sample) would be expressed at a detectable level for assembly. Why not DNA-sequence these samples to get the full repertoire for comparison to RNA? Why would so many distinct transcripts be yielded from fairly synchronous samples?

      We know from controlled human malaria infections of malaria-naive volunteers, that most var genes present in the genomic repertoire of the parasite strain are expressed at the onset of the human blood phase (heterogenous var gene expression) (Wang et al., 2009; Bachmann et al, 2016; Wichers-Misterek et al., 2023). This pattern shifts to a more restricted, homogeneous var expression pattern in semi-immune individuals (expression of few variants) depending on the degree of immunity (Bachmann et al., 2019).

      Author response image 2.

      In this cohort, 15 first-time infections are included, which should also possess a more heterogenous var gene expression in comparison to the pre-exposed individuals, and indeed such a trend is already seen in the number of different DBLa-tag clusters found in both patient groups (see figure panel from Wichers et al. 2021: blue-first-time infections; grey–pre-exposed). Moreover, Warimwe et al. 2013 have shown that asymptomatic infections have a more homogeneous var expression in comparison to symptomatic infections. Therefore, we expect that parasites from symptomatic infections have a heterogenous var expression pattern with multiple var gene variants expressed, which we could assemble due to our high read depth and our improved var assembly pipeline for even low expressed variants.

      Moreover, the distinct transcripts found in the RNA-seq approach were confirmed with the DBLα tag data. To our opinion, previous approaches may have underestimated the complexity of the var transcriptome in less immune individuals.

      Mapping reads to these 455 putative transcripts and using this count matrix for differential expression analysis seems very unlikely to produce reliable results. As acknowledged on line 327, many reads will be mis-mapped, and perhaps most challenging is that most vars will not be represented in most samples. In other words, even if mapping were somehow perfect, one would expect a sparse matrix that would not be suitable for statistical comparisons between groups. This is likely why the per-patient transcript analysis doesn't appear to be consistent. I would recommend the authors remove the DE sections utilizing this approach, or add convincing evidence that the count matrix is useable.

      We agree that this is a general issue of var differential expression analysis. Therefore, we have removed the var differential expression analysis from this manuscript as the per patient approach was more appropriate for the paired samples. We validated different mapping strategies (new Figure S6) and included a paragraph discussing the problem in the result section:

      • Line 237–255: “In the original approach of Wichers et al., 2021, the non-core reads of each sample used for var assembly were mapped against a pooled reference of assembled var transcripts from all samples, as a preliminary step towards differential var transcript expression analysis. This approach returned a small number of var transcripts which were expressed across multiple patient samples (Figure 3 – Figure supplement 2a). As genome sequencing was not available, it was not possible to know whether there was truly overlap in var genomic repertoires of the different patient samples, but substantial overlap was not expected. Stricter mapping approaches (for example, excluding transcripts shorter than 1500nt) changed the resulting var expression profiles and produced more realistic scenarios where similar var expression profiles were generated across paired samples, whilst there was decreasing overlap across different patient samples (Figure 3 – Figure supplement 2b,c). Given this limitation, we used the paired samples to analyse var gene expression at an individual subject level, where we confirmed the MSP1 genotypes and alleles were still present after short-term in vitro cultivation. The per patient approach showed consistent expression of var transcripts within samples from each patient but no overlap of var expression profiles across different patients (Figure 3 – Figure supplement 2d). Taken together, the per patient approach was better suited for assessing var transcriptional changes in longitudinal samples. It has been hypothesised that more conserved var genes in field isolates increase parasite fitness during chronic infections, necessitating the need to correctly identify them (Dimonte et al., 2020, Otto et al., 2019). Accordingly, further work is needed to optimise the pooled sample approach to identify truly conserved var transcripts across different parasite isolates in cross-sectional studies.” - Figure S6:

      Author response image 3.

      Var expression profiles across different mapping. Different mapping approaches Were used to quantify the Var expression profiles of each sample (ex Vivo (n=13), generation I (n=13), generation 2 (n=10) and generation 3 (n=l). The pooled sample approach in Which all significantly assembled van transcripts (1500nt and containing3 significantly annotated var domains) across samples were combined into a reference and redundancy was removed using cd-hit (at sequence identity = 99%) (a—c). The non-core reads of each sample were mapped to this pooled reference using a) Salmon, b) bowtie2 filtering for uniquely mapping paired reads with MAPQ and c) bowtie2 filtering for uniquely mapping paired reads with a MAPQ > 20. d) The per patient approach was applied. For each patient, the paired ex vivo and in vitro samples were analysed. The assembled var transcripts (at least 1500nt and containing3 significantly annotated var domains) across all the generations for a patient were combined into a reference, redundancy was removed using cd-hit (at sequence identity: 99%), and expression was quantified using Salmon. Pie charts show the var expression profile With the relative size of each slice representing the relative percentage of total var gene expression of each var transcript. Different colours represent different assembled var transcripts with the same colour code used across a-d.

      For future cross-sectional studies a per patient analysis that attempts to group per patient assemblies on some unifying structure (e.g., domain, homology blocks, domain cassettes etc) should be performed.

      Line 304. I don't understand the rationale for comparing naïve vs. prior-exposed individuals at ex-vivo and gen 1 timepoints to provide insights into how reliable cultured parasites are as a surrogate for var expression in vivo. Further, the next section (per patient) appears to confirm the significant limitation of the 'all sample analysis' approach. The conclusion on line 319 is not supported by the results reported in figures S9a and S9b, nor is the bold conclusion in the abstract about "casting doubt" on experiments utilizing culture adapted

      We have removed this comparison from the manuscript due to the inconsistencies with the var per patient approach. However, the conclusion in the abstract has been rephrased to reflect the fact we observed 19% of the core transcript differentially expressed within one cycle of cultivation.

      Line 372/391 (and for the other LMM descriptions). I believe you mean to say response variable, rather than explanatory variable. Explanatory variables are on the right hand side of the equation.

      Thank you for spotting this inaccuracy, we changed it to “response variable” (line 324, line 343, line 805).

      Line 467. Similar to line 304, why would comparisons of naïve vs. prior-exposed be informative about surrogates for in vivo studies? Without a gold-standard for what should be differentially expressed between naïve and prior-exposed in vivo, it doesn't seem prudent to interpret a drop in the number of DE genes for this comparison in generation 1 as evidence that biological signal for this comparison is lost. What if the generation 1 result is actually more reflective of the true difference in vivo, but the ex vivo samples are just noisy? How do we know? Why not just compare ex vivo vs generation 1/2 directly (as done in the first DE analysis), and then you can comment on the large number of changes as samples are less and less proximal to in vivo?

      In the original paper (Wichers et al., 2021), there were differences between the core transcriptome of naïve vs previously exposed patients. However, these differences appeared to diminish in vitro, suggesting the in vivo core transcriptome is not fully maintained in vitro.

      We have added a sentence explaining the reasoning behind this analysis in the results section:

      • Lines 414–423: “In the original analysis of ex vivo samples, hundreds of core genes were identified as significantly differentially expressed between pre-exposed and naïve malaria patients. We investigated whether these differences persisted after in vitro cultivation. We performed differential expression analysis comparing parasite isolates from naïve (n=6) vs pre-exposed (n=7) patients, first between their ex vivo samples, and then between the corresponding generation 1 samples. Interestingly, when using the ex vivo samples, we observed 206 core genes significantly upregulated in naïve patients compared to pre-exposed patients (Figure 7 – Figure supplement 3a). Conversely, we observed no differentially expressed genes in the naïve vs pre-exposed analysis of the paired generation 1 samples (Figure 7 – Figure supplement 3b). Taken together with the preceding findings, this suggests one cycle of cultivation shifts the core transcriptomes of parasites to be more alike each other, diminishing inferences about parasite biology in vivo.”

      Overall, I found the many DE approaches very frustrating to interpret coherently. If not dropped in revision, the reader would benefit from a substantial effort to clarify the rationale for each approach, and how each result fits together with the other approaches and builds to a concise conclusion.

      We agree that the manuscript contains many different complex layers of analysis and that it is therefore important to explain the rationale for each approach. Therefore, we now included the summary Table 3 (see comment to public review). Additionally, we have removed the var transcript differential expression due to its limitations, which we hope has already streamlined our manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The current manuscript provides strong evidence that the molecular function of SLC35G1, an orphan human SLC transporter, is citrate export at the basolateral membrane of intestinal epithelial cells. Multiple lines of evidence, including radioactive transport experiments, immunohistochemical staining, gene expression analysis, and siRNA knockdown are combined to deduce a model of the physiological role of this transporter.

      Strengths:

      The experimental approaches are comprehensive, and together establish a strong model for the role of SLC35G1 in citrate uptake. The observation that chloride inhibits uptake suggests an interesting mechanism that exploits the difference in chloride concentration across the basolateral membrane.

      Weaknesses:

      Some aspects of the results would benefit from a more thorough discussion of the conclusions and/or model.

      For example, the authors find that SLC35G1 prefers the dianionic (singly protonated) form of citrate, and rationalize this finding by comparison with the substrate selectivity of the citrate importer NaDC1. However, this comparison has weaknesses when considering the physiological pH for SLC35G1 and NaDC1. NaDC1 binds citrate at a pH of ~5.4 (the pKa of citrate is 5.4, so there is a lot of dianionic citrate present under physiological circumstances). SLC35G1 binds citrate under pH conditions of ~7.5, where a very small amount of dianionic citrate is present. The data clearly show a pH dependence of transport, and the authors rule out proton coupling, but the discrepancy between the pH dependence and the physiological expectations should be addressed/commented on.

      Thank you for your insightful comment. Citrate exists mostly in its trianionic form under near neutral pH conditions in biological fluids, as you pointed out. Its dianionic form represents only a small portion (about 1/100) of total citrate due to the pKa. However, significant SLC35G1-specific uptake was observed under near neutral pH conditions (Figure 1G). Therefore, although SLC35G1-mediated citrate transport is less efficient under physiologically relevant near neutral pH conditions, it could still play a role particularly in the intestinal absorption process, in which the concentration gradient of dianionic citrate could be maintained by continuous supply by NaDC1-mediated apical uptake.

      The rationale for the series of compounds tested in Figure 1F, which includes metabolites with carboxylate groups, a selection of drugs including anion channel inhibitors and statins, and bile acids, is not described. Moreover, the lessons drawn from this experiment are vague and should be expanded upon. It is not clear what, if anything, the compounds that reduce citrate uptake have in common.

      Thank you for highlighting the need for clarity regarding the compounds tested in Figure 1F. The tested compounds were TCA cycle intermediates (fumarate, α-ketoglutarate, malate, pyruvate, and succinate) as substrate candidate carboxylates analogous to citrate, diverse anionic compounds (BSP, DIDS, probenecid, pravastatin, and taurocholate) as those that might be substrates or inhibitors, and diverse cationic compounds (cimetidine, quinidine, and verapamil) as those that are least likely to interact with SLC35G1. Among them, certain anionic compounds significantly reduced SLC35G1-specific citrate uptake, suggesting that they may interact with SLC35G1. However, we could not identify any structural features commonly shared by these compounds, except that they have anionic moieties. We acknowledge that it requires further elaboration to clarify such structural features. We have revised the relevant section on p. 3 (line 25 - 32) to include these.

      The transporter is described as a facilitative transporter, but this is not established definitively. For example, another possibility could involve coupling citrate transport to another substrate, possibly even chloride ion.

      Thank you for your insightful comment regarding the nature of SLC35G1's transport mechanism. While we have described SLC35G1 as a facilitative transporter based on our current data, we acknowledge that this has not been definitively proven, as you pointed out, and we cannot exclude the possibility that its sensitivity to extracellular Cl- might imply its operation as a citrate/Cl- exchanger. To examine the possibility, we would need to manipulate the chloride ion gradient across the plasma membrane. Particularly, generating an outward Cl- gradient to see if it could enhance citrate uptake could be a potential strategy. However, current techniques do not allow us to effectively generate the Cl- gradient, thus preventing us from conclusively verifying this possibility. We recognize the importance of further investigating this aspect in future studies. Your suggestion highlights an important area for additional research to fully understand the transport mechanism of SLC35G1. We have additionally commented on this issue on p. 4 (line 1 – 3).

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The primary goal of this study was to identify the transport pathway that is responsible for the release of dietary citrate from enterocytes into blood across the basolateral membrane.

      Strengths:

      The transport pathway responsible for the entry of dietary citrate into enterocytes was already known, but the transporter responsible for the second step remained unidentified. The studies presented in this manuscript identify SLC35G1 as the most likely transporter that mediates the release of absorbed citrate from intestinal cells into the serosal side. This fills an important gap in our current knowledge of the transcellular absorption of dietary citrate. The exclusive localization of the transporter in the basolateral membrane of human intestinal cells and the human intestinal cell line Caco-2 and the inhibition of the transporter function by chloride support this conclusion.

      Weaknesses:

      (i) The substrate specificity experiments have been done with relatively low concentrations of potential competing substrates, considering the relatively low affinity of the transporter for citrate. Given that NaDC1 brings in not only citrate as a divalent anion but also other divalent anions such as succinate, it is possible that SLC35G1 is responsible for the release of not only citrate but also other dicarboxylates. But the substrate specificity studies show that the dicarboxylates tested did not compete with citrate, meaning that SLc35G1 is selective for the citrate (2-), but this conclusion might be flawed because of the low concentration of the competing substrates used in the experiment.

      Thank you for your valuable comment on our substrate specificity experiments. As you pointed out, we cannot rule out the possibility that dicarboxylates might be recognized by SLC35G1 with low affinity as the tested concentration was relatively low. However, at the concentration of 200 μM, competing substrates with an affinity comparable to that of citrate could inhibit SLC35G1-specific citrate uptake by about 30%. Therefore, it is likely that the compounds that did not exhibit significant effect have no affinity or at least lower affinity than citrate to SLC35G1. Further studies should explore a broader range of concentrations for potential substrates including those with lower affinity. It would help clarify the substrate recognition characteristics of SLC35G1 and if it indeed has a unique preference for citrate over dicarboxylates. We have additionally mentioned that on p. 3, line 32 – 35.

      (ii) The authors have used MDCK cells for assessment of the transcellular transfer of citrate via SLC35G1, but it is not clear whether this cell line expresses NaDC1 in the apical membrane as the enterocytes do. Even though the authors expressed SLC35G1 ectopically in MDCK cells and showed that the transporter localizes to the basolateral membrane, the question as to how citrate actually enters the apical membrane for SLC35G1 in the other membrane to work remains unanswered.

      Thank you for highlighting this important aspect of our study. The mechanism of apical citrate entry in MDCKII cells is unknown, although NaDC1 or a similar transporter may be involved. However, this set of experiments have successfully demonstrated the basolateral localization of SLC35G1 and its operation for citrate efflux. Attempts to clarify the apical entry mechanism may need to be included in future studies for more detailed characterization of the model system using MDCKII cells. This would help in fully understanding the transcellular transport system for citrate. Investigation using Caco-2 cells or MDCKII cells double transfected with NaDC1 and SLC35G1 would also need to be induced in future studies to gain more definitive insights into the transcellular transport mechanism for citrate in the intestine, delineating the suggested cooperative role of NaDC1 and SLC35G1. We would be grateful for your understanding of our handling regarding this issue.

      (iii) There is one other transporter that has already been identified for the efflux of citrate in some cell types in the literature (SLC62A1, PLoS Genetics; 10.1371/journal.pgen.1008884), but no mention of this transporter has been made in the current manuscript.

      Thank you for bringing up the relevance of SLC62A1, which has recently been identified as a citrate efflux transporter in some cell types (PLoS Genet, 16, e1008884, 2020). We have now included comments on this transporter in Introduction (p. 2).

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Mimura et al describe the discovery of the orphan transporter SLC35G1 as a citrate transporter in the small intestine. Using a combination of cellular transport assays, they show that SLC35G1 can mediate citrate transport in small intestinal cell lines. Furthermore, they investigate its expression and localization in both human tissue and cell lines. Limited evidence exists to date on both SLC35G1 and citrate uptake in the small intestine, therefore this study is an important contribution to both fields. However, the main claims by the authors are only partially supported by experimental evidence.

      Strengths:

      The authors convincingly show that SLC35G1 mediates uptake of citrate which is dependent on pH and chloride concentration. Putting their initial findings in a physiological context, they present human tissue expression data of SLC35G. Their Transwell assay indicates that SLC35G1 is a citrate exporter at the basolateral membrane.

      Weaknesses:

      Further confirmation and clarification are required to claim that the SLC indeed exports citrate at the basolateral membrane as concluded by the authors. Most experiments measure citrate uptake, but the authors state that SLC35G1 is an exporter, mostly based on the lack of uptake at physiological conditions faced at the basolateral side. The Transwell assay in Figure 1L is the only evidence that it indeed is an exporter. However, in this experiment, the applied chloride concentration was not according to the proposed model (120 mM at the basolateral side). The Transwell assay, or a similar assay measuring export instead of import, should be carried out in knockdown cells to prove that the export indeed occurs through SLC35G1 and not through an indirect effect. Related to the mentioned chloride sensitivity, it is unclear how the proposed model works if the SLC faces high chloride conditions under physiological conditions though it is inhibited by chloride.

      Thank you for highlighting these important points. We used the Cl--rich medium in transcellular transport studies, as stated in the relevant section in Meterials and Methods (p. 6, line 2 – 5). The Cl- concentration (144 mM) was comparable to the physiological concentration in extracellular body fluids. To clarify that experimental condition, we have additionally noted that in the text (p. 4, line 9) and the legends of Figs. 1K and 1L. The results indicate that basolaterally localized SLC35G1 can mediate citrate export effectively under the Cl--rich extracellular condition. The transport mechanism regulated by Cl- is unclear, but it is difficult to further clarify the mechanism at this time. We recognize the importance of further investigating the aspect in future studies, including the possibility that SLC35G1 might be a citrate/Cl- exchanger, as pointed out by Reviewer #1 (3rd comment).

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The figures are very tiny and difficult to see. The inset in Figure 1C is much too small to be readable. I suggest enlarging the panels.

      Thank you for your feedback. As advised, we have enlarged the panels to improve visibility.

      Line 74: "certain anionic compounds signficantly inhibited SLC35G1-specific citrate uptake, indicating they are also recognized by SLC35G1." This sentence should be reworded since the mechanism is not clear. The word "reduced" would be a better option than "inhibited." Are there other interpretations besides SLC35G1 binding to explain the observations?

      Thank you for your suggestion. We have reworded the sentence to improve clarity (p. 3, line 30). It may be possible to speculate that they interact with SLC35G1, but the mechanisms are not clear yet.

      The manuscript is vague about how the transporter was discovered. If a screen of orphan transporters was performed to identify a citrate transporter, this should be described.

      Thank you for pointing out the need for more details regarding the discovery of the transporter. We have added some detailed description at the beginning of Results and Discussion (p. 3).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Recommendations for the authors:

      (1) For transcellular transport of citrate and the role of SLC35G1, it would be better to use Caco-2 cells cultured on Transwells because these cells express NaDC1 in the apical membrane and the authors have shown that SLC35G1 is expressed in the basolateral membrane in this cell line. The mechanism for the entry of citrate into MDCK cells used in the present manuscript is not known. If the authors prefer to use MDCK cells because of their superior use for polarization, they can use a double transfection (NaDC1 and SLC35G1) to differentially express the two transporters in the apical versus and basolateral membrane and then use the cells for trans cellular transport of citrate.

      Please refer to our reply to your second review comment.

      (2) The substrate specificity experiments should use concentrations higher than 0.2 mM for competing dicarboxylates because the Km for citrate is only 0.5 mM. It is likely that NaDC1 brings in citrate and other dicarboxylates into enterocytes and then SLC35G1 mediates the efflux of these metabolic intermediates into blood.

      Please refer to our reply to your first review comment.

      (3) One major aspect of the transport function of this newly discovered citrate efflux transporter that has not been explored is the role of membrane potential in the transport function. The transporter is not coupled to Na or K or even H; so then the transport of citrate via this transporter must be electrogenic. Of course, this would be perfect for the transporter to function in the efflux of citrate because of the inside-negative membrane potential, but the authors need to show that the transporter is electrogenic. This can be examined through Caco-2 cells and/or MDCK cells expressing SLC35G1 and examining the impact of changes in membrane potential (valinomycin and K) on the transport of citrate.

      Thank you for your suggestion. As shown in Figure 1D, the use of K-gluconate in place of Na-gluconate, which induces plasma membrane depolarization, had no impact on the specific uptake of citrate, suggesting that SLC35G1-mediated citrate transport is independent of membrane potential. We have additionally mentioned this on p. 3 (line 21 – 24).

      (4) The localization studies mention Na/K ATPase component as a basolateral membrane marker, but the text describes it as BCRP. This needs to be corrected.

      Thank you for pointing out the mistake. We have corrected that. The marker was ATP1A1.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Major points:

      (1) Most experiments measure citrate uptake, but the authors state that SLC35G1 is an exporter, mostly based on the lack of uptake at physiological conditions faced at the basolateral side. The Transwell assay in Figure 1L is the only evidence that it indeed is an exporter. However, in this experiment, the applied chloride concentration was not according to the proposed model (120mM at basolateral side). Why was this chloride concentration not mimicked accordingly in the Transwell assay?

      (2) The Transwell assay, or a similar assay measuring export instead of import, should be carried out in knockdown cells to prove that the export indeed occurs through SLC35G1 and not through an indirect effect.

      (3) Related to the mentioned chloride sensitivity, it is unclear how the proposed model works if the SLC faces high chloride conditions under physiological conditions though it is inhibited by chloride.

      Please refer to our reply to your review comments.

      Related to the localization of SLC35G1:

      (4) The polyclonal antibody against SLC35G1 should be validated to prove the specificity. This should be relatively straightforward given the authors have SLC35G1 knockdown cells.

      Thank you for your suggestion. To validate the specificity of the polyclonal antibody against SLC35G1, we prepared HEK293 cells transiently expressing SLC35G1 and SLC35G1 tagged with a FLAG epitope at the C-terminus (SLC35G1-FLAG). In the immunostained images, whereas only SLC35G1-FLAG was stained with the anti-FLAG antibody, both SLC35G1 and SLC35G1-FLAG were stained with the anti-SLC35G1 antibody, indicating that the anti-SLC35G1 antibody can recognize SLC35G1. In addition, the localization patterns of SLC35G1-FLAG observed with both antibodies were consistent, indicating furthermore that the anti-SLC35G1 antibody can recognize SLC35G1 specifically. Based on all these, the specificity of the anti-SLC35G1 antibody was validated.

      Author response image 1.

      (5) To strengthen the data on the localization of SLC35G1, the cell lines should be co-stained with a plasma membrane marker as well, not just in tissue with ATP1A1. In polarized cells co-staining with apical and basolateral markers should be applied.

      SLC35G1 was indicated to be localized to the basolateral membrane geometrically in both polarized MDCKII and Caco-2 cells. This finding aligns with its basolateral localization indicated by its colocalization with ATP1A1 in the human small intestinal section. These results are we consider sufficient to support the basolateral localization characteristics of SLC35G1.

      General points:

      (6) In the abstract the authors mention that they focus on highly expressed orphan transporters in the small intestine as candidates. However, no other candidates are mentioned or discussed in the study. Consequently, this should be rephrased.

      Thank you for the advice. Also taking into consideration the third recommendation point by Reviewer #1, we have added some detailed description at the beginning of Results and Discussion (p. 3).

      (7) As far as mentioned there is exactly one (other) publication on SLC35G1 (10.1073/pnas.1117231108). The authors should discuss this only publication with functional data on SLC35G1 in more detail. How do the authors integrate their findings with the existing knowledge? For example, why did the authors not investigate the impact of Ca2+ on SLC35G1 transport?

      Thank you for your suggestion. SLC35G1 was indicated to be mainly localized to the endoplasmic reticulum (ER) in the earlier study, in which SLC35G1 was tagged with GFP. A possibility is that SLC35G1 was wrongly directed to ER due to the modulation in the study. We have additionally mentioned this possibility in the relevant section (p. 3, line 9 – 11). We have also revised a relevant sentence on p. 3 (line 5).

      With regard to another point that GFP-tagged SLC35G1 was indicated to interact with STIM1, we examined its effect on SLC35G1-mediated citrate uptake supplementary. As shown in the accompanying figure, coexpression of HA-tagged STIM1 did not affect the elevated citrate uptake induced by FLAG-tagged SLC35G1, indicating that STIM1 has no impact on citrate transport function of SLC35G1 at the plasma membrane.

      Author response image 2.

      (A) Effect of the coexpression of HA-tagged STIM1 on [14C]citrate (1 μM) uptake by FLAG-tagged SLC35G1 transiently expressed in HEK293 cells. The uptake was evaluated for 10 min at pH 5.5 and 37°C. Data represent the mean ± SD of three biological replicates. Statistical differences were assessed using ANOVA followed by Dunnett’s test. *, p < 0.05 compared with the control (gray bar). (B) Western blot analysis was conducted by probing for the HA and FLAG tags, using the whole-cell lysate samples (10 µg protein aliquots) prepared from cells expressing HA-STIM1 and/or FLAG-SLC35G1. The blots of β-actin are shown for reference.

      (8) Generally, the introduction could provide more background.

      In response to your suggestion and also to the third review comment from Reviewer #2, we have now additionally included comments on SLC62A1, which has recently been reported as a citrate efflux transporter in some cell types, in Introduction.

      Minor points:

      (9) There is a typo in Figure 1D: manniotol instead of mannitol.

      Thank you for pointing that out. We have corrected the typo in Figure 1D.

      (10) Figure 1J: The resolution is low and the localization to the basolateral membrane is not conclusive based on this image. It seems rather localized at the whole membrane and intracellularly too.

      Thank you for your feedback. We have enhanced the resolution of the image and also enlarged it to improve clarity and make the basolateral membrane localization more discernible.

      (11) Figure 1K: Clarification is needed if the experiment was performed in the Transwell plate. Based on the results from the pH titration experiment, it is expected that there is no uptake at pH7.4. Therefore, this experiment does not seem to provide additional evidence or support the conclusions drawn related to cellular polarization.

      Please refer to our reply to your review comments.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      This article by Navratna et al. reports the first structure of human HGSNAT in an acetyl-CoA-bound state. Through careful structural analysis, the authors propose potential reasons why certain human mutations lead to lysosomal storage disorders and outline a catalytic mechanism. The structural data are of good quality, and the manuscript is clearly written. This study represents an important step toward understanding the mechanism of HGSNAT and is valuable to the field. I have the following suggestions:

      (1) The authors should characterize whether the purified protein is active. Otherwise, how does one know if the detergent used maintains the protein in a biologically relevant state? The authors should at least attempt to do so. If these prove to be challenging, at the very least, the authors should try a cell-based assay to demonstrate that the GFP tag does not interfere with the function.

      We have addressed these concerns in the revised version and mentioned these efforts in our previous response letter. We’re briefly mentioning them here again. We attempted measuring HGSNAT catalyzed reaction by monitoring the decrease in acetyl-CoA in the presence of D-glucosamine (acetyl group acceptor) using a coupled enzyme acetyl-CoA assay kit from SIGMA (MAK039) that converts acetyl-CoA to a fluorescent product measurable at Ex/Em of 535/587 nm. We noticed a decrease in the level of acetyl-CoA (gray) upon the addition of HGSNAT (red) (Rebuttal figure 1).

      Author response image 1.

      Acetyl-CoA levels in absence and presence of HGSNAT purified in digitonin. Decrease in the levels of 10 M acetyl-CoA was measured in presence of 10 M D-glucosamine and 30 nM HGSNAT at pH 7.5.

      While optimizing the assay, Xu et al. (2024, Nat Struct Mol Biol) published structural and biochemical characterization of HGSNAT, showing that detergent-purified HGSNAT is active. In addition, we have shown by cryo-EM that GFP-tagged HGSNAT that we purified in detergent was already bound to the endogenous substrate ACO, an observation that has been observed by Xu et al., as well. Finally, we performed LC-MS on GFP-tagged HGSNAT purified in detergent to detect bound ACO, which could be further removed by dialysis. These results have been included in Figure S9. The endogenous binding of ACO to HGSNAT in detergent suggests that neither the tag nor detergent are detrimental to the function.

      (2) In Figure 5, the authors present a detailed schematic of the catalytic cycle, which I find to be too speculative. There is no evidence to suggest that this enzyme undergoes isomerization, similar to a transporter, between open-to-lumen and open-to-cytosol states. Could it not simply involve some movements of side chains to complete the acetyl transfer?

      We have already changed this figure in our latest submission. Perhaps the changes made were not obvious while reviewing. We agreed with this reviewer that the enzyme could likely achieve catalysis by simple side chain movements without undergoing extensive isomerization steps, as depicted in Figure 5. In the absence of data supporting large movements during the acetyl transfer reaction, old Figure 5 appeared speculative. Hence, we have edited Figure 5 in the revised version of the manuscript based on the observations we made in this study, and different states shown in the figure do not show any conformational changes and only depict acetyl transfer.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This work describes the structure of Heparan-alpha-glucosaminide N-acetyltransferase (HGSNAT), a lysosomal membrane protein that catalyzes the acetylation reaction of the terminal alpha-D-glucosamine group required for degradation of heparan sulfate (HS). HS degradation takes place during the degradation of the extracellular matrix, a process required for restructuring tissue architecture, regulation of cellular function and differentiation. During this process, HS is degraded into monosaccharides and free sulfate in lysosomes.

      HGSNAT catalyzes the transfer of the acetyl group from acetyl-CoA to the terminal non-reducing amino group of alpha-D-glucosamine. The molecular mechanism by which this process occur has not been described so far. One of the main reasons to study the mechanism of HGSNAT is that multiple mutations spanning the entire sequence of the protein, such as, nonsense mutations, splice-site variants, and missense mutations lead to dysfunction that causes abnormal accumulation of HS within the lysosomes. This accumulation is a cause of mucopolysaccharidosis IIIC (MPS IIIC), an autosomal recessive neurodegenerative lysosomal storage disorder, for which there are no approved drugs or treatment strategies.

      This paper provides a 3.26A structure of HGSNAT, determined by single-particle cryo-EM. The structure reveals that HGSNAT is a dimer in detergent micelles, and a density assigned to acetyl-CoA. The authors speculate about the molecular mechanism of the acetylation reaction, map the mutations known to cause MPS IIIC on the structure and speculate about the nature of the HGSNAT disfunction caused by such mutations.

      Strengths:

      The paper describes a structure of HGSNAT a member of the transmembrane acyl transferase (TmAT) superfamily. The high-resolution of a HGSNAT bound to acetyl-CoA is important for our understanding of HGSNAT mechanism. The density map is of high-quality, except for the luminal domain. The location of the acetyl-CoA allows speculation about the mechanistic role of multiple residues surrounding this molecule. The authors thoroughly describe the architecture of HGSNAT and map the mutations leading to MPS IIIC.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Navratna et al. have solved the first structure of a transmembrane N-acetyltransferase (TNAT), resolving the architecture of human heparan-alpha-glucosaminide N-acetyltransferase (HGSNAT) in the acetyl-CoA bound state using single particle cryo-electron microscopy (cryoEM). They show that the protein is a dimer, and define the architecture of the alpha- and beta-GSNAT fragments, as well as convincingly characterizing the binding site of acetyl-CoA.

      Strengths:

      This is the first structure of any member of the transmembrane acyl transferase superfamily, and as such it provides important insights into the architecture and acetyl-CoA binding site of this class of enzymes.

      The structural data is of a high quality, with an isotropic cryoEM density map at 3.3Å facilitating building of a high-confidence atomic model. Importantly, the density for the acetyl-CoA ligand is particularly well-defined, as are the contacting residues within the transmembrane domain.

      The structure of HSGNAT presented here will undoubtedly lay the groundwork for future structural and functional characterization of the reaction cycle of this class of enzymes.

      Weaknesses:

      While the structural data for the state presented in this work is very convincing, and clearly defines the binding site of acetyl-CoA, to get a complete picture of the enzymatic mechanism of this family, additional structures of other states will be required.

      A weakness of the study is the lack of functional validation. The enzymatic activity of the enzyme characterized was not measured, and the enzyme lacks native proteolytic processing, so it is a little unclear whether the structure represents an active enzyme.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      In the response to reviewers, the authors mention revised coordinates, but the revised coordinates provided to this reviewer do not reflect the stated changes (I assume a technical error somewhere)

      Perhaps, the old coordinates in the deposition system were resubmitted with the revised draft. Nevertheless, we have made the changes suggested by this reviewer to structure in the previous round and have released the new coordinates (PDB ID: 8TU9).

      Is there any evidence for the interprotomer disulfide except for the map? e.g. if it is a disulfide-linked dimer, one should see a shift in mobility on non-reducing vs reducing SDS-PAGE. Without this, the evidence from the map is not conclusive - while the symmetry-related cysteines are nearby to one another, based on the map I could argue that they could just as well be modeled with the cys sidechains reduced and pointing away from one another.

      In addition to building the density based on cryo-EM maps, we have performed FSEC-based thermal melt analysis of the Ala mutation of C334 that is involved in disulfide at the dimer interface. C334A is still expressed as a dimer, suggesting that C334A is not the only residue stabilizing the dimer. Upon heating the detergent-solubilized protein, we noticed that the FSEC peak for C334A shows a monomeric HGSNAT (Figure 4-Figure supplement 1 in main manuscript). We hypothesize that in the absence of C334 disulfide, the extensive hydrophobic side-chain interaction network displayed in Figure 2C is responsible for maintaining the integrity of the dimer. Heating disturbs these non-disulfide interactions, thereby rendering the protein monomer. We have also performed PAGE analysis as suggested by this reviewer and noticed that reducing conditions result in a monomeric protein band (Rebuttal figure 2). While we were revising this manuscript, two other groups published structures of HGSNAT (Xu et al., 2024, Nat. Struct Mol Biol, and Zhao et al., 2024, Nat. Comm). These groups have also identified this disulfide at the dimer interface in their HGSNAT structures. Zhao et al. showed that this disulfide is not crucial for dimerization and also suggested that it can break depending on the conformation of HGSNAT. Our FSEC results agree with this observation.

      Author response image 2.

      Comparison of purified HGSNAT on native and reducing SDS-PAGE. The arrows on both the gels indicate N-GFP-HGSNAT. The two bands on the SDS PAGE are, perhaps, two differentially glycosylated forms of HGSNAT.


      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      (1) The authors should characterize whether the purified protein is active. Otherwise, how does one know if the detergent used maintains the protein in a biologically relevant state? The authors should at least attempt to do so. If these prove to be challenging, at the very least, the authors should try a cell-based assay to demonstrate that the GFP tag does not interfere with the function. The authors would need to establish an in vitro assay using purified protein and assess the level of Acetyl-CoA in the reaction (there are commercial kits and a long list of literature showing how to measure this). They could also follow the HS acetylation reaction by e.g. HPLC-MS or NMR (among other methods).

      The cryo-EM sample was prepared without the exogenous addition of ligand, as noted in the manuscript. However, we see that acetyl-CoA was intrinsically bound to the protein, indicating the ability of GFP-tagged HGSNAT protein to bind the ligand. Upon dialysis, we see release of acetyl-CoA from the protein, which we have confirmed by LC-MS analysis (Fig S9). We purified the protein at a pH optimal for acetyl-CoA binding, as suggested by Bame, K. J. and Rome, L. H. (1985) and Meikle, P. J. et al., (1995). Because we see acetyl-CoA in a structure obtained using a GFP fusion, we argue that GFP does not interfere with protein stability and ability to bind to the co-substrate. As demonstrated by existing literature HGSNAT catalyzed reaction is compartmentalized spatially and conditionally. The binding of acetyl-CoA happens towards the cytosol and is optimal at pH 7-0.8.0, while the transfer of the acetyl group to heparan sulfate occurs towards the luminal side and is optimal at pH 5.0-6.0. We attempted measuring HGSNAT catalyzed reaction by monitoring decrease in acetyl-CoA in presence of D-glucosamine (acetyl group acceptor) using a coupled enzyme acetyl-CoA assay kit from SIGMA (MAK039) that converts acetyl-CoA to a fluorescent product measurable at Ex/Em of 535/587 nm. We noticed a decrease in the level of acetyl-CoA in the presence of HGSNAT-ACO complex (blue) and apo HGSNAT (red); the difference compared to the ACO standard (gray) was not significant. While optimizing the assay, Xu et al. (2024, Nat Struct Mol Biol) published structural and biochemical characterization of HGSNAT, showing that detergent-purified HGSNAT is active.

      Author response image 3.

      Acetyl-CoA levels in absence and presence of HGSNAT purified in digitonin. Decrease in the levels of 10 mM acetyl-CoA was measured in presence of 10 mM D-glucosamine and 30 nM HGSNAT at pH 7.5.

      (2) In Figure 5, the authors present a detailed schematic of the catalytic cycle, which I find to be too speculative. There is no evidence to suggest that this enzyme undergoes isomerization, similar to a transporter, between open-to-lumen and open-to-cytosol states. Could it not simply involve some movements of side chains to complete the acetyl transfer? The speculative nature of this assumption needs to be clearly acknowledged throughout the manuscript and discussed in more detail. The authors could use HDX-MS or introduce cysteine residues in the hypothetical inward- and outward-facing cavities and test accessibility by incubating the purified protein with maleimides or other agents reacting with free cysteine.

      We thank the reviewers for this insightful critique. Yes, the enzyme could likely achieve catalysis by simple side chain movements without undergoing extensive isomerization steps, as depicted in Figure 5. We also agree with the reviewer that HDX-MS could be the best way to monitor the substrate-induced conformational dynamics within HGSNAT experimentally. In the absence of data supporting large movements during the acetyl transfer reaction, figure 5 is speculative. We have now edited Figure 5 in the revised version of the manuscript based on the observations we made in this study.

      (3) The acetyl-CoA-bound state is described as the open-to-lumen state. Indeed, from Figure 1C, the lumen opening appears much larger than the cytosol opening. Is there any small tunnel that connects the substrate site to the cytosol? In other words, is this state accessible to both the lumen and the cytosol, albeit with a larger opening toward the lumen? This question arises because, in Figure S5, the tunnel calculated by MOLE seems to also connect to the cytosol.

      Yes, it is likely that the ACOS is accessible via lumen and cytosol to varying degrees, as evidenced by MOLE prediction. However, binding of the bulky nucleoside head group of acetyl-CoA at ACOS blocks the cytosolic entrance in the confirmation discussed in this manuscript. MOLE prediction was performed on a structure devoid of acetyl-CoA, and it is possible that the protein doesn’t essentially undergo isomerization between open-to-lumen and open-to-cytosol confirmations during acetyl transfer. Likely, ACOS is always accessible from both the lumen and cytosol, but depending on the substrates or products bound, the accessibility could be limited to either the lysosomal lumen or cytosol. We have rewritten all the statements mentioning an open-to-lumen confirmation to reflect this argument.

      (4) The authors state, "Interestingly, in most of the detergent conditions we tested, HGSNAT was predominantly dimeric (Fig S1C-H)," and also mention, "In all the detergents we tested, HGSNAT eluted as a dimer, a testament to the extensive side-chain interaction network." The dimerization is said to be mediated by a disulfide bond. I would be surprised if the detergents the authors tested could break a disulfide bond. Therefore, can this observation truly serve as a testament to an "extensive" side-chain interaction network?

      We agree with the reviewer that detergents are unlikely to break a disulfide bond. To address this comment, we generated a C334A mutant of HGSNAT and extracted it from cells in 1% digitonin. It is still expressed as a dimer (Fig S8E). However, upon heating the detergent solubilized protein, we noticed that the FSEC peak for C334A shows a monomeric HGSNAT (Fig S8I and S8K). We hypothesize that in the absence of C334 disulfide, the extensive hydrophobic side-chain interaction network displayed in Figure 2C is responsible for maintaining the integrity of the dimer. Heating disturbs these non-disulfide interactions, thereby rendering the protein monomer.

      (5) Apart from the cryo-EM structure, the article does not provide any other experimental evidence to support or explain a molecular mechanism. Due to the complete absence of functional assays, mutagenesis analysis, or other structures such as a ternary complex or an acetylated enzyme intermediate, the mechanistic model depicted in Figure 5 should be taken with caution. This uncertainty needs to be clearly described in the manuscript text. Performing additional mutagenesis experiments to test key hypotheses, or further discussing relevant data from the literature, would strengthen the manuscript.

      We agree with the reviewer on the lack of supporting evidence for the mechanistic models proposed in Fig 5. They were made based on previously reported biochemical characterization of HGSNAT by Rome & Crain (1981), Rome et al. (1983), Miekle et al. (1995), and Fan et al. (2011). However, we agree with the reviewer that this schematic is not experimentally proven and is speculative at best. We have edited Figure 5 in the revised version of the manuscript. In addition, we have also performed mutagenesis analysis to study the stability of mutants (Fig S8) and performed LC-MS analysis to identify endogenously bound acetyl-CoA (Fig S9) to strengthen parts of the manuscript. We have discussed our findings in the results and modified the discussion according to these suggestions.

      (6) It is discussed that H269 is an essential residue that participates in the acetylation reaction, possibly becoming acetylated during the process. However, there is no solid experimental evidence, e.g. mutagenesis analysis or structural analysis, in this or previous articles, that demonstrates this to be the case. Providing more information, ideally involving additional experimental work, would strengthen this aspect of the mechanism that is proposed. This would require establishing an in vitro assay, as described in 1).

      H269, as a crucial catalytic residue, was suggested by monitoring the effect of chemical modifications of amino acids on acetylation of HGSNAT membranes by Bame, K. J. and Rome, L. H. (1986). We generated N258I and H269A mutants of HGSNAT and analyzed their stability. We noticed a greater destabilization in N258I compared to H269A (Fig S8). We believe this is because of the loss of ability to bind acetyl-CoA, as the TMs around a catalytic core of the protein in our cryo-EM structure were stabilized by interactions with acetyl-CoA. Recently, Xu et al. (2024, Nat Struct Mol Biol) suggested that they do not observe acetylated histidine in their structure. However, our structure and that reported by Xu et al. (2024) are obtained at cytosolic pH. Perhaps, acetylation of H269 occurs at acidic lysosomal pH. Extensive structural and catalytic investigation of HGSNAT at low pH is required to rule out H269 acetylation as a step in the HGSNAT catalyzed reaction.

      (7) In the discussion part, the authors mention previous studies in which it was postulated that the catalytic reaction can be described by a random order mechanistic model or a Ping Pong Bi Bi model. However, the authors leave open the question of which of these mechanisms best describes the acetylation reaction. The structure presented here does not provide evidence that could support one mechanism or the other. The authors could explore if an in vitro experimental measurement of protein activity would provide any information in this regard.

      We agree with the reviewer that a more detailed kinetic analysis is necessary to define the bisubstrate reaction mechanism of HGSNAT. All the existing structural data on two isoforms of HGSNAT is obtained at basic pH. As a result, the existing structures do not unambiguously demonstrate the bisusbtrate mechanism of HGSNAT. We believe low pH structural characterization and a detailed kinetic and structural characterization of HGSNAT in membrane mimetics like nanodiscs could provide more insights into the mechanism. However, these studies are a future undertaking and are not a part of this manuscript.

      (8) Although the authors map the mutations leading to MPS IIIC on the structure and use FoldX software to predict the impact of these mutations on folding and fold stability, there is no experimental evidence to support FoldX's predictions. It would be ideal if an additional test for these predictions were included in the manuscript. The authors could follow the unfolding of purified mutants by SEC, FSEC, or changes in intrinsic fluorescence to assess protein stability.

      As suggested here, we prepared HGSNAT MPSIIIC variants and tested their expression and stability (please see Fig S8). These results have been included in the revised version of the manuscript.

      (9) Some sidechains that have quite strong sidechain density are missing atoms. I would be particularly careful with omitting sidechains that pack in the hydrophobic core, as this can tend to artificially reduce the clash score. Check F81, L62, P91 and V87, for example.

      We have revisited the modeling of these regions and deposited new coordinates.

      (10) W316 seems to have the wrong rotamer.

      This has been corrected in the new coordinate file that has been released.

      (11) N134 and N433 seem to have extra density. Are these known glycosylation sites?

      As per Hrebicek M. et al., 2006 and Feldhammer M. et al., 2009, there are five predicted glycosylation sites: N66, N114, N134, N433, and N602. However, we see evidence for NAG density at N114, N134, and N433. These have now been modeled in the structure.

      (12) At the C-terminal residue (Ile-635), the very C-terminal carboxylate is modeled pointing to a hydrophobic environment. It seems more likely to me that the Ile sidechain is packing here, with the C-terminal carboxylate facing the solvent.

      Thank you for pointing this out. We have edited the orientation of the Ile sidechain accordingly.

      Presentation and wording of results/methods:

      - Figure S3 legend "At places with missing density, the side chains were trimmed to C- alpha" - this is incorrect, I think the authors mean C-beta.

      We have corrected this error in the revised version of the manuscript.

      - Figure S3 legend - the authors refer to a gray mesh, where a transparent surface is displayed.

      Thanks for pointing this error out. We have corrected this in the revised version.

      - Some colloquial/vague wording in the main text (a lot of sentences starting with "Interestingly, ...". Making the wording more specific would help the reader I think.

      We have edited out ‘interestingly’ from the document and have re-written parts of the manuscript, per reviewers’ suggestion, for brevity.

      - Figure S2 legend, "throughout the processing workflow the resolution of luminal domain was used as a guidepost" - it is not entirely clear to me what this means in this context, perhaps revise the wording?

      We have rephrased this line in the revised draft of the manuscript.

      - Figure S2 and methods, Local refinements of LD and TMD are mentioned, but not indicated on the processing workflow.

      We have included a new Fig S2 & edited the legend, including these changes, per the reviewers’ suggestions.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      We again thank the reviewers for their comments and recommendations. In response to the reviewer’s suggestions, we have performed several additional experiments, added additional discussion, and updated our conclusions to reflect the additional work. Specifically, we have performed additional analyses in female WT and Marco-deficient animals, demonstrating that the Marco-associated phonotypes observed in male mice (reduced adrenal weight, increased lung Ace mRNA and protein expression, unchanged expression of adrenal corticosteroid biosynthetic enzymes) are not present in female mice. We also report new data on the physiological consequences of increased aldosterone levels observed in male mice, namely plasma sodium and potassium titres, and blood pressure alterations in WT vs Marco-deficient male mice. In an attempt to address the reviewer’s comments relating to our proposed mechanism on the regulation of lung Ace expression, we additionally performed a co-culture experiment using an alveolar macrophage cell line and an endothelial cell line. In light of the additional evidence presented herein, we have updated our conclusions from this study and changed the title of our work to acknowledge that the mechanism underlying the reported phenotype remains incompletely understood. Specific responses to reviewers can be seen below.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The investigators sought to determine whether Marco regulates the levels of aldosterone by limiting uptake of its parent molecule cholesterol in the adrenal gland. Instead, they identify an unexpected role for Marco on alveolar macrophages in lowering the levels of angiotensin-converting enzyme in the lung. This suggests an unexpected role of alveolar macrophages and lung ACE in the production of aldosterone.

      Strengths:

      The investigators suggest an unexpected role for ACE in the lung in the regulation of systemic aldosterone levels.

      The investigators suggest important sex-related differences in the regulation of aldosterone by alveolar macrophages and ACE in the lung.

      Studies to exclude a role for Marco in the adrenal gland are strong, suggesting an extra-adrenal source for the excess Marco observed in male Marco knockout mice.

      Weaknesses:

      While the investigators have identified important sex differences in the regulation of extrapulmonary ACE in the regulation of aldosterone levels, the mechanisms underlying these differences are not explored.

      The physiologic impact of the increased aldosterone levels observed in Marco -/- male mice on blood pressure or response to injury is not clear.

      The intracellular signaling mechanism linking lung macrophage levels with the expression of ACE in the lung is not supported by direct evidence.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Tissue-resident macrophages are more and more thought to exert key homeostatic functions and contribute to physiological responses. In the report of O'Brien and Colleagues, the idea that the macrophage-expressed scavenger receptor MARCO could regulate adrenal corticosteroid output at steady-state was explored. The authors found that male MARCO-deficient mice exhibited higher plasma aldosterone levels and higher lung ACE expression as compared to wild-type mice, while the availability of cholesterol and the machinery required to produce aldosterone in the adrenal gland were not affected by MARCO deficiency. The authors take these data to conclude that MARCO in alveolar macrophages can negatively regulate ACE expression and aldosterone production at steady-state and that MARCO-deficient mice suffer from secondary hyperaldosteronism.

      Strengths:

      If properly demonstrated and validated, the fact that tissue-resident macrophages can exert physiological functions and influence endocrine systems would be highly significant and could be amenable to novel therapies.

      Weaknesses:

      The data provided by the authors currently do not support the major claim of the authors that alveolar macrophages, via MARCO, are involved in the regulation of a hormonal output in vivo at steady-state. At this point, there are two interesting but descriptive observations in male, but not female, MARCO-deficient animals, and overall, the study lacks key controls and validation experiments, as detailed below.

      Major weaknesses:

      (1) According to the reviewer's own experience, the comparison between C57BL/6J wild-type mice and knock-out mice for which precise information about the genetic background and the history of breedings and crossings is lacking, can lead to misinterpretations of the results obtained. Hence, MARCO-deficient mice should be compared with true littermate controls.

      (2) The use of mice globally deficient for MARCO combined with the fact that alveolar macrophages produce high levels of MARCO is not sufficient to prove that the phenotype observed is linked to alveolar macrophage-expressed MARCO (see below for suggestions of experiments).

      (3) If the hypothesis of the authors is correct, then additional read-outs could be performed to reinforce their claims: levels of Angiotensin I would be lower in MARCO-deficient mice, levels of Antiotensin II would be higher in MARCO-deficient mice, Arterial blood pressure would be higher in MARCO-deficient mice, natremia would be higher in MARCO-deficient mice, while kaliemia would be lower in MARCO-deficient mice. In addition, co-culture experiments between MARCO-sufficient or deficient alveolar macrophages and lung endothelial cells, combined with the assessment of ACE expression, would allow the authors to evaluate whether the AM-expressed MARCO can directly regulate ACE expression.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Corticosterone levels in male Marco -/- mice are not significantly different, but there is (by eye) substantially more variability in the knockout compared to the wild type. A power analysis should be performed to determine the number of mice needed to detect a similar % difference in corticosterone to the difference observed in aldosterone between male Marco knockout and wild-type mice. If necessary the experiments should be repeated with an adequately powered cohort.

      Using a power calculator (www.gigacalculator.com) it was determined that our sample size of 13 was one less than sufficient to detect a similar % difference in corticosterone as was detected in corticosterone. We regret that we unable to perform additional measurements as the author suggested in the available timeframe.

      (2) All of the data throughout the MS (particularly data in the lung) should be presented in male and female mice. For example, the induction of ACE in the lungs of Marco-/- female mice should be absent. Similar concerns relate to the dexamethasone suppression studies. Also would be useful if the single cell data could be examined by sex--should be possible even post hoc using Xist etc.

      Given the limitations outlined in our previous response to reviewers it was not possible to repeat every experiment from the original manuscript. We were able to measure the expression of lung Ace mRNA, ACE protein, adrenal weights, adrenal expression of steroid biosynthetic enzymes, presence of myeloid cells, and levels of serum electrolytes in female animals. These are presented in figures 1G, 3B, 4A, 4E, 4F, 4I, and 4J. We have elected to not present single cell seq data according to sex as it did not indicate substantial differences between males and females in Marco or Ace expression and so does not substantively change our approach.

      (3) IF is notoriously unreliable in the lung, which has high levels of autofluorescence. This is the only method used to show ACE levels are increased in the absence of Marco. Orthogonal methods (e.g. immunoblots of flow-sorted cells, or ideally CITE-seq that includes both male and female mice) should be used.

      We used negative controls to guide our settings during acquisition of immunofluorescent images. Additionally, we also used qPCR to show an increase in Ace mRNA expression in the lung in addition to the protein level. This data was presented in the original manuscript and is further bolstered by our additional presentation of expression data for Ace mRNA and protein in female animals in this revised manuscript.

      (4) Given the central importance of ACE staining to the conclusions, validation of the antibody should be included in the supplement.

      We don’t have ACE-deficient mice so cannot do KO validation of the antibody. We did perform secondary stain controls which confirmed the signal observed is primary antibody-derived. Moreover, we specifically chose an anti-ACE antibody (Invitrogen catalogue # MA5-32741) that has undergone advanced verification with the manufacturer. We additionally tested the antibody in the brain and liver and observed no significant levels of staining.

      Author response image 1.

      (5) The link between alveolar macrophage Marco and ACE is poorly explored.

      We carried out a co-culture experiments of alveolar macrophages and endothelial cells and measure ACE/Ace expression as a consequence. This is presented in figure 5D and the discussion.

      (6) Mechanisms explaining the substantial sex difference in the primary outcome are not explored.

      This is outside the scope if this project, though we would consider exploring such experiments in future studies.

      (7) Are there physiologic consequences either in homeostasis or under stress to the increased aldosterone (or lung ACE levels) observed in Marco-/- male mice?

      We measured blood electrolytes and blood pressure in Marco-deficient and Marco-sufficient mice. The results from these experiments are presented in 4G-4M.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Below is a suggestion of important control or validation experiments to be performed in order to support the authors' claims.

      (1) It is imperative to validate that the phenotype observed in MARCO-deficient mice is indeed caused by the deficiency in MARCO. To this end, littermate mice issued from the crossing between heterozygous MARCO +/- mice should be compared to each other. C57BL/6J mice can first be crossed with MARCO-deficient mice in F0, and F1 heterozygous MARCO +/- mice should be crossed together to produce F2 MARCO +/+, MARCO +/- and MARCO -/- littermate mice that can be used for experiments.

      We thank the reviewer for their comments. We recognise the concern of the reviewer but due to limited experimenter availability we are unable to undertake such a breeding programme to address this particular concern.

      (2) The use of mice in which AM, but not other cells, lack MARCO expression would demonstrate that the effect is indeed linked to AM. To this end, AM-deficient Csf2rb-deficient mice could be adoptively transferred with MARCO-deficient AM. In addition, the phenotype of MARCO-deficient mice should be restored by the adoptive transfer of wild-type, MARCO-expressing AM. Alternatively, bone marrow chimeras in which only the hematopoietic compartment is deficient in MARCO would be another option, albeit less specific for AM.

      We recognise the concern of the reviewer. We carried out a co-culture experiments of alveolar macrophages and endothelial cells and measure ACE/Ace expression as a consequence. This is presented in figure 5D and the implications explored in the discussion.

      (3) If the hypothesis of the authors is correct, then additional read-outs could be performed to reinforce their claims: levels of Angiotensin I would be lower in MARCO-deficient mice, levels of Antiotensin II would be higher in MARCO-deficient mice, Arterial blood pressure would be higher in MARCO-deficient mice, natremia would be higher in MARCO-deficient mice, while kaliemia would be lower in MARCO-deficient mice. Similar read-outs could also be performed in the models proposed in point 2).

      We measured blood electrolytes and blood pressure in Marco-deficient and Marco-sufficient mice. The results from these experiments are presented in 4G-4M.

      (4) Co-culture experiments between MARCO-sufficient or deficient alveolar macrophages and lung endothelial cells, combined with the assessment of ACE expression, would allow the authors to evaluate whether the AM-expressed MARCO can directly regulate ACE expression.

      To address this concern we carried out a co-culture experiment as described above.