I'm building towards an argument here because I think that Maps into something that goes with your butterfly that human beings do and this is La Paul and transformative experience human beings go through these profound changes and right and so she gives she does the gunan experiment of people offering to turn you into a vampire which is very much like your butterfly example

I want to start with that idea of kind of a bidirectional Conformity that it's not only the mind is conforming to the world but the world is conforming to the mind of course you might get tired of me doing this this is a neoplatonic claim right and this is the idea this is this is this is sort of the central idea behind what I call participatory knowing

The maps produced are intersubjective objects, in that they reflect the beliefs of the group of people that built them.

there's a crucial distinction between what barney called three and four that's what uh captured me so 01:08:55 if you take the mind as fundamental as existing the only existing thing where where the the movie of the world is reflected into i am not happy 01:09:08 my my culture uh rejects then as a useless point of view to do science that's what but there is an alternative much more interesting and i find much more 01:09:21 deep in which which i read in a garage you know which is what uh barry seems to be is calling the fourth alternative in which the mind is not the fundamental thing in which everything is it's 01:09:32 reflected it's just one part of this uh uh uh interdependence now namely it's not the things that not intrinsic existence but mind has intrinsic existence that's not the 01:09:45 the the there's a more interesting answer namely that mind itself has no intrinsic uh uh existence uh and so it's just uh uh 01:09:57 it has an existence but is is it of course it's an existence my mind exists and i exist but uh and and and and if i think in terms of groups to say i mean all sentience being or all 01:10:10 human beings whatever um together uh which is an ideal also some some some some western philosophy that you know um it's collectively that through language and 01:10:22 that would create a vision of the world but i want to think of this as one aspect of the ensemble of things which is existence where uh uh nothing of that has um 01:10:36 uh has intrinsic existence so i want to think about my mind it's my brain my sensation my all my my my love people loving me the the image that people have of me my instead of the set 01:10:48 of processes uh uh which part of the world and it seems to me that the belgian allows me to think at me as part of the world at the same sense of the same ground as the world being 01:11:01 reflected in my consciousness without having to choose one of the two perspective to be the true one the intrinsic existence um 01:11:12 all all perspectives are uh uh empty they're all good but they are um they are not the the one on which the rest is ground they 01:11:24 each of one i can understand dependently on something else so marios you read a a verse or two from the third chapter of nagarjuna and uh let me comment on that

there's a fourth  kind of knowing that's not about seeing but being   00:03:34 the p is participatory knowing knowing our place  in the world being in a right relationship with   the arena we're operating in being in a dynamic  connection with other people who have their own   perspectives and being in flow with what's around  us notice how different it feels when you're   out of sorts in a situation versus when you're  really at home or in the groove in a situation   when we know how to participate in an arena we  can see what is relevant and anticipate what is   00:04:02 next and we can improvise with little or no  self-doubt or hesitation because we aren't   thinking about it we know it and with this kind of  knowing we're not just observing the world we're   impacting it but not in that simple procedural  sense we are dancing with the situation both   influencing and being influenced and here we  can handle complexity and ambiguity and novelty   we can face things with good humor because we're  at home in the arena building our participatory   00:04:29 knowing we become co-creators with life