- Oct 2013
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caseyboyle.net caseyboyle.net
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I maintain also that if you compare me with those who profess54 to turn men to a life of temperance and justice, you will find that my teaching is more true and more profitable than theirs. For they exhort their followers to a kind of virtue and wisdom which is ignored by the rest of the world and is disputed among themselves; I, to a kind which is recognized by all. They, again, are satisfied if through the prestige of their names they can draw a number of pupils into their society; I, you will find, have never invited any person to follow me, but endeavor to persuade the whole state to pursue a policy from which the Athenians will become prosperous themselves, and at the same time deliver the rest of the Hellenes from their present ills
Aha! Convincing people to see that he teaches not for money, or for prestigious but to better the country Athens.
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For these reasons, men who make it their duty to invent discourses of that kind should be held in higher esteem than those who propose and write down laws, inasmuch as they are rarer, have the more difficult task, and must have superior qualities of mind. Especially is this true in our day; for, at the time when the human race was beginning to come into existence and to settle together in cities,53 it was natural that their searching should have been for much the same thing; but today, on the other hand, when we have advanced to the point where the discourses which have been spoken and the laws which have been laid down are innumerable, and where we single out the oldest among laws and the newest among discourses for our praise, these tasks no longer call for the same understanding; nay, those who have elected to make laws have had at their service a multitude of laws already made
I agree to the to the statement that men who invent discourse should be held in higher esteem, general those who create anything are always praised. Creating discourse may it be laws, or the court room, it has always been a way to resolve any and every problem with mankind till violence breaks out.
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Now in the introduction and in the opening words of that discourse I reproach monarchs because they who more than others ought to cultivate their understanding are less educated than men in private station. After discussing this point, I enjoin upon Nicocles not to be easy-going and not to feel that he had taken up the royal office as one takes up the office of a priest, but to put aside his selfish pleasures and give his mind to his affairs. And I try to persuade him also that it ought to be revolting to his mind to see the base ruling over the good and the foolish giving orders to the wise, saying to him that the more vigorously he condemns folly in other men, the more should he cultivate his own understanding
It seems Isocrates is proving that he is actually not a bad man who take money, or takes wealth from royalty. However he is a man who is good, that teaches royalty how to take care of problems. Isocrates is trying to prove that all his ways of discourse was used to bring justices or in a good morality.
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As to the hegemony, then, it is easy enough for you to make up your minds from what has been read to you that it should by right belong to Athens. But, I beg of you, consider well whether I appear to you to corrupt the young by my words, or, on the contrary, to inspire them to a life of valor and of dangers endured for their country; whether I should justly be punished for the words which have been read, or whether, on the contrary, I deserve to have your deepest gratitude for having so glorified Athens and our ancestors and the wars which were fought in those days that the orators who had composed discourses on this theme have destroyed them all, being ashamed of their own efforts, while they who today are reputed to be clever dare no longer to speak upon this subject, but confess the feebleness of their own powers
This is a convincing way to make the reader view iscorates differently in a good way.
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- Sep 2013
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caseyboyle.net caseyboyle.net
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If, therefore, I were to agree with my accuser and concede his claim that I am the “cleverest” of men and that I have never had an equal as a writer of the kind of speeches which are offensive to you, it would be much more just to give me credit for being an honest man than to punish me; for when a man has superior talents whether for speech or for action, one cannot fairly charge it to anything but fortune, but when a man makes good and temperate use of the power which nature has given him, as in my own case, all the world ought in justice to commend his character.
Hahaha! It seems that he is the "cleverest of men, this is a beautiful way of showing how his accuser has faults in his arguments, by showing how stupid his accuser is when the argument is made to attack a man who "makes good and temperate use of the power which nature has given him". No man would ever want to accuse this character because they would be deemed as bad.
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Here in the indictment my accuser endeavors to vilify me, charging that I corrupt young men30 by teaching them to speak and gain their own advantage in the courts contrary to justice,
This is what he is being charged for. This is going to be an interesting argument. What is odd to me, even though he states that they are envious. What any one accuse of him of this crime, if envious; why would one challenge such a figure who dedicated his whole life to studying, understanding and practicing discourse?
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for the men who have chosen to neglect what is their own and to plot against what belongs to others do not keep their hands off citizens who live soberly and bring before you only those who do evil; on the contrary, they advertise their powers in their attacks upon men who are entirely innocent, and so get more money from those who are clearly guilty.
It seems Athens and like many other countries, cities, towns and village; there is always corruption involving money and evil.
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again in the past Athens has so deeply repented18 the judgements which have been pronounced in passion and without proof that not long after the events she has become eager to punish her deceivers, and would gladly have seen the victims of calumny in happier circumstances than before.
It seems that in Athens many times the truth has been smothered. I suppose Rhetoric or the art of discourse was used unjustly, to deceive the truth.
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it is as if one were to charge another with breaking into a temple, while showing in his own hands plunder stolen from the gods.
This is a good analogy to show attack the many points that accuse him of being a wrong character.
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And as I kept thinking upon it, I came ever to the same conclusion, namely, that the only way in which I could accomplish this was to compose a discourse which would be, as it were, a true image of my thought and of my whole life; for I hoped that this would serve both as the best means of making known the truth about me and, at the same time, as a monument, after my death, more noble than statues of bronze.
It seems he was attacked for what he is and what he has done. Yet, I assume he did not care for other's opinions. But, he does care about what the future will think about him.
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caseyboyle.net caseyboyle.net
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However, if it is my duty not only to rebuke others, but also to set forth my own views, I think all intelligent people will agree with me that while many of those who have pursued philosophy have remained in private life,(16) others, on the other hand, who have never taken lessons from any one of the sophists have become able orators and statesmen. For ability, whether in speech or in any other activity, is found in those who are well endowed by nature and have been schooled by practical experience.(17) Formal training makes such men more skilfull and more resourceful in discovering the possibilities of a subject; for it teaches them to take from a readier source the topics which they otherwise hit upon in haphazard fashion. But it cannot fully fashion men who are without natural aptitude into good debaters or writers, although it is capable of leading them on to self-improvement and to a greater degree of intelligence on many subjects.
This paragraph seems to be a good comparison to those who seek knowledge for its value of being used in a practical mean rather than seeking this knowledge for the value of money. Plato never enjoyed the idea of money existing because it has no functional value to be used. Thus those who seek philosophy in the private life seek this to become smarter or more intelligent for there own desire. It is like how many of us must go to college to obtain a degree to which the knowledge we obtain will be used to work and make money instead of using it to advance ourselves as human beings.
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For myself, I should have preferred above great riches that philosophy had as much power as these men claim; for, possibly, I should not have been the very last in the profession nor had the least share in its profits. But since it has no such power, I could wish that this prating might cease. For I note that the bad repute which results therefrom does not affect the offenders only, but that all the rest of us who are in the same profession share in the opprobium
It seems Plato is attacking the fact that the value of sophists and their teaching are nothing of worth. Even though many pay for the knowledge of becoming a sophist, there is no knowledge given or taken. The only value or worth taken is money. Which Plato hates the fact that people are being taught nothing, yet they still pay for it.
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Furthermore, although they say that they do not want money and speak contemptuously of wealth as filthy lucre, they hold their hands out for a trifling gain and promise to make their disciples all but immortal
It seems that it is being shown the Hypocrisy of these teachers and how they themselves are go against what they teach.
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If all who are engaged in the profession of education were willing to state the facts instead of making greater promises than they can possibly fulfill, they would not be in such bad repute with the lay-public
My question would be, if someone did state the facts would they have any one in the public left for them to use or educate?
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caseyboyle.net caseyboyle.net
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I tried to put an end to the injustice of blame and ignorance of opinion; I wanted to write the discourse, Helen's encomium and my plaything.
Five arguments explained and proven both either right and wrong. I assume the author just wanted to understand, and explain each argument could be right and wrong. Even though, he gives every argument an opportunity; he still proves many of them wrong except Helena being persuaded. He argued for it by using all three: pathos how her opinion was persuaded. Ethos and logos were used by understanding the error of the soul.
I personally believed she was persuaded, because a great challenge for a man is to persuade a woman to fall in love with you, but if you are a prince and have a large sum of wealth that would help as well.
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But if it is a human disease and an error of the soul, it ought not to be blamed as a sin but ought rather to be accounted a misfortune.
Again, he points out the error of the soul, which is being used in two different arguments. To which I am assuming it is going to be used again because love and stupidity go hand in hand for the, error of the soul.
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For if all people possessed memory concerning all things past, and awareness of all things present, and foreknowledge of all things to come, discourse would not be similarly similar; hence it is not now easy to remember the past or consider the present or foretell the future; so that most people on most subjects furnish themselves with opinion as advisor to the soul.
This would be our error of the soul to which we, the mortal men, proceed to enjoy and despises this. "furnish themselves with opinion as advisor to the soul." This part is distinct that it tells me, human being look unto themselves and their memories to find answers. However, with the lack of not remembering the past and not predicting the future all humans are at an error; that which rhetoricians take advantage of and persuade.
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Two distinct methods of trickery and magic are to be found: errors of soul, and deceptions of opinion. Those who have persuaded and do persuade anyone about anything are shapers of lying discourse
Shapers of lying discouse, now I do know what I am going to specialize in. It seems after reading the "Two-Fold Argument" paper, it shows that rhetoric has a two sides good and bad.
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for it can stop fear and assuage pain and produce joy and make mercy abound.
I had a good laugh at this written sentence proving it shows how rhetoric can be used in any way that it is required to inform or deceive.
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For he did terrible things; she was the victim; it is accordingly fair to pity her and hate him.
Quite interesting that the author uses an ethos, or an emotional way to persuade you that she is a victim, so that you may pity her instead of reviling her.
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Now in the first case, the responsible party deserves the responsibility. For the will of a god cannot be hindered by human forethought. For it is not natural for the superior to be hindered by the inferior, but for the inferior to be ruled and led by the superior--for the superior to lead and the inferior to follow. And a god is superior to a human being in force, intelligence, etcetera. Accordingly, if one must attribute responsibility to Fortune and the god, one must acquit Helen of infamy.
This is a logos argument using deductive logic quite tasty.
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I myself wish to absolve this ill-reputed woman from responsibility, and to show that those who blame her are lying--and, having shown the truth, to put an end to ignorance.
This is what the author is going to argue about. Personal I think Helena made her own decision to leave, I disagree to believe that she was persuaded because given the time and events. Helena was royalty to a certain extent and has been tutored by many people; meaning she is educated. She must have had an understanding to what should have caused if she left. I then again am arguing from a logos point of view which would need more evidence.
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-for it is equal error and ignorance to blame the praiseworthy and to praise the blameworthy.
An argument of morality is started off. How does one decide on what is the order of a city, or what is praiseworthy versus what to blame?
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