Pablo: No, I think that's about it. It is pretty hard. And once you get deported, especially when you get deported, when you come by your own decision, you know, you're good. But when you get deported and you just get arrested with no money in your pocket and then they let you out like that. And it is pretty hard because Mexico is dangerous. There's a lot of things that can happen to you and stuff. I'm glad I made it. I'm glad I'm here now. I'm glad I got a job. I'm not into that much trouble anymore. I have my kid.

sabel: Nice. And what are your plans for, now that you're in Mexico? What do you hope to do?Pablo: I just want to keep working. I don't know. Just in the future, maybe get a house, have my Mom come over here.

Isabel: So do you feel like you're more in touch with your Mexican roots or identity here than some other people you know coming in?Pablo: Yeah, yeah. I mean, if somebody comes up to me and be like, "Where you from?" I'm not going to be like, "Well I'm from Georgia." No, I'm from here. I was born here. I lived over there, but that's it.Isabel: Yeah. Some people will say like, "Oh, well, you're either like too American to be Mexican or too Mexican to be American." What's your response to that?Pablo: I don't think

Isabel: So when you were reintegrating back, was it difficult? What were some of the biggest challenges finding a job, being separated from your girlfriend?Pablo: Well, being separated from my mom, because actually I was over there with my mom and my mom's still over there. She's still living over there in Georgia.Isabel: And you're close with your mom?Pablo: Yeah. We talk a lot.Isabel: Do you talk a lot now?Pablo: By the phone, yeah.Isabel: Does she check in with you?Pablo: Yeah.Isabel: What do you talk about? Just anything?Pablo: Yeah, just how she's doing, how I'm doing, how things are over here, how things are over there. Kids over there, my little brothers and sisters. How they’re doing.Isabel: So pretty much your whole family is back in the US.Pablo: Yeah.

ou spent so much time in the US. Just how is reintegrating into Mexican society?Pablo: Yeah. Well, it is kind of difficult, because it was hard for me to get a job at first, because I didn't have any documents or any papers or anything. And my parents wouldn't help me, either because I was... I used to dress weird.Isabel: Weird?Pablo: Yeah. They always tell me I got a mean face. I don't know why, but everybody always tells me that. And since I used to dress baggy, they would look at me like…Isabel: Oh, thinking that you were becoming dangerous or something, or untrustworthy?Pablo: Yeah, yeah.

sabel: And then, soon you're deported. Was that difficult to leave her?Pablo: Yeah, it was. She used to tell me that she wanted to come down here with me, but I was like... I was struggling over here, and it was not easy. So, I told her, "You know what? I don't think it's a good idea. Because things are different, and you're not going to like it, and I don't want to tell you, 'Yes, come on over here and we're going to be fine.' And then what if you don't like it and then you get mad and you're going to be like, 'It's your fault I came over here.'" I didn't want none of that.Isabel: It's a big risk.Pablo: Yeah.Isabel: Was she also undocumented?Pablo: Yes.

Pablo: Well, I got deported.Isabel: Oh, you were deported?Pablo: Yeah.Isabel: What were the events leading up to deportation? What caused it?Pablo: I was driving without a license.Isabel: Driving without a license. And did they have any other record of you because of your affiliation when you were younger with gangs, or...?Pablo: Yeah, gang-related.Isabel: Were you ever stopped by the police before that?Pablo: No.Isabel: So this was your first infraction or whatever you want to call it, driving without a license. So were you taken in by the police? How were you treated? What happened?Pablo: I was taken in by the police and then the ICE officer would come visit county jail every weekend. They would take care of all illegal people, make you sign your deportation.Isabel: So did they present you of your rights, or what happened?Pablo: No, they just made me sign deportation. They didn't provide me with any rights or anything. It was just like, "You're going to sign this so you can get deported." Because I had gotten arrested before. I was in county, also. I was 17 by then.Isabel: Why were you arrested that time?Pablo: Because I had an issue with my girlfriend. Her mom, she actually called the cops on me because we were fighting and stuff, so yeah they took me to jail.Isabel: They got like physical, then? Mom called the cops, and you were taken to jail at 17?

Pablo: When I started working, I didn't get to hang around with them that much, that’s when I didn't used to work, that’s when I was in school. But there was times, for example, on the weekends and everything, every weekend there would be someone there to pick me up and "You know what? Let's go do this and that."Isabel: What was this and that?Pablo: We would just go banging. We would go to the clubs, nightclubs, we would go to the bars, we would go to the parks. And if you see a rival gang, then we would just... Like we say, hit them up.Isabel: Hit them up. Is that just start a fight?Pablo: Yeah. Basically, yeah.Isabel: And that was from 15 years old to...Pablo: To like 17, 18.

Isabel: And this time you were also... Were you in the gang or just affiliated around it?Pablo: Yeah, I was in the gang.Isabel: In the gang as well?Pablo: Yeah.Isabel: And what do you think drew you to that? Because one thing my professor's interested in is the sort of factors that draw or bring kids into gangs and that kind of activity, away from school and stuff, what the trends are. What was it in your case?Pablo: In my case, where I grew up, we did have a few different cliques that were not getting along together. So it was basically... How can I say? Just wanted everybody to know you, everybody to respect you, and know that you were part of the best team, or best gang, whatever, that's it.Isabel: So would you say it was a pride thing or more protection?Pablo: Yeah, it's a pride thing. It's a pride thing. Yeah.Isabel: Yeah, especially if you had family members who were already in it. That's on top of being sort of like brothers through that. You're also already by blood, as well.Pablo: Yeah.

My mom she did not really say anything about that because I actually told her that I wanted to get a job because I was not doing good in school. So she was like, "Okay, well, if you're going to do better by having a job, then just get a job. I'll help you get a job." Then she basically talked to one of her friends that she had, and he helped me to get a job. So I started working when I was 15. It was at a carpet mill.Isabel: What did you do there?Pablo: We would get, how do you call them, big rolls of carpet? We would just have machines to cut them in different sizes and...Isabel: Big machines?Pablo: Yeah.Isabel: Were they dangerous?Pablo: Yeah, because they're cutting machines and...Isabel: Did they know you were 15? Or did you have to say?Pablo: They didn't know I was 15 because I was obviously using a fake ID. So I was 15, but on that fake ID, I would supposedly be 27.Isabel: Oh, wow.Pablo: I mean they knew, but that's just how it is.

Pablo: I was 14 when I started hanging out with those friends and-Isabel: Were these friends just partying or were they also doing illegal activities?Pablo: Yeah, they were actually doing illegal activities, also. I got involved. I mean, I lived right there.Isabel: Yeah. Were these gangs or just casual groups?Pablo: Yeah. Yeah, some of them. Well actually, a few of my cousins they were already involved in gangs, so it was pretty easy for me to get used to that.Isabel: Yeah, slip into that lifestyle, I bet.Pablo: Yeah.Isabel: And that was when you were around 14 years old?Pablo: Yeah.Isabel: So did you stop playing soccer then, around there?Pablo: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I stopped playing soccer, then I left school When I was 15 I dropped out of school.

sabel: What did you like outside of school?Pablo: I liked playing soccer, I liked playing soccer, but there's a lot of stuff going out there that gets your attention, all this partying and stuff. So yeah, I pretty much got into all that.

Pablo: At the beginning it was hard, going to school and not speaking English, everybody making fun of you, and it was hard. But then after a while you get used to it, and get the hang of it, started making friends and stuff.Isabel: Did you take ESL classes?Pablo: Yeah, I did.Isabel: What were those like?Pablo: They were boring.Isabel: Yeah.Pablo: But they were cool because we were all Hispanic people, so it felt good, than just being with a bunch of Americans. They didn't speak English that well, so it was better to be with our ESL team

Isabel: Did you end up crossing the border or did you get a visa?Pablo: I actually used somebody else's papers, somebody else's documents.Isabel: Mhm [affirmative].Pablo: So I basically...Isabel: That's how you got over?Pablo: Yeah. I didn't cross the border or anything.

Isabel: Can you tell me a bit about how old you were when you migrated, what the reasons were?Pablo: I was five years old, and the reason was because my Dad died when I was five, so my Mom decided to go to the States and work for a better life.

Do you consider yourself Mexican or American? American like United States.Weco: Mexican.Isabel: Mexican? Why is that?Weco: It's in my blood. It's running through my veins. If I wasn't Mexican, they wouldn't talk about, "Oh, you gotta get deported." It's in my veins. I always say I'm Mexican. I'm proud of it. I love it. It's in my veins. We're the shit. We're the shit. This is the way I look at it. Where I was at in the States, a lot of construction workers, a lot of working places outside, any type of hard work was really us. Really us. Hot sun, any type of thing, it's us. Also, drug wise, it's us. We're out there. We're both ways.Isabel: You are really honest.Weco: I'm just being honest. We're both ways, and Mexico is known for that. A lot of good people, working people, and then there's drug people. They've got both.

Weco: Yeah, yeah. I was like, "If you didn't catch me, I'd still be there right now. But no, things worked out for a reason. You caught me for a reason." Everything happened for a reason. And like I told the judge before they deported me, I was like, "Look, Your Honor, I turned myself in. I got the record of not turning myself in. I actually got a record of escaping, running from the law during transportation, during whatever the situation is. But that's my record, running."Weco: And I told him just like that. "I'm actually trying to change. I got a son that was just born. He's not that many months old. It's something big, you know something big for me." But all I remember is actually him asking my baby mama, "Does he got insurance?" She was like, "Yeah. Anything would happen to him, insurance will cover him. He don't need his dad." So I just stood quiet. I was just like, "All right." My judge, my lawyer was like, "Anything else?" I just told him... I really went off. I just told the judge, I was like, "Think what you want. Feel how you want. But at the end of the day, somehow, some way, I'm a gonna to come back. You can take me away from my mom, anybody, but not my son. At the end of the day, I'm a gonna to come back. You're a judge. You've just got a black thing on. You ain't nobody to tell me shit. You ain't nobody. This courtroom ain't nobody. These handcuffs ain't nobody.

Weco: If I was still in the U.S., I think I'd still have my job that I had out there, which was the cleaning, and I'd just be out there taking care of my son. That's all I was out there. When I actually got out on my bond and I had my son with me for that period of time, that's all I did. Just went to work, relaxed, came home. That's it. That's all I really done. After I had my son, I really stopped. I stopped all my bull crap. I grew up without a father, so I know what it's like. I told myself that's what they want, and I actually failed at that because I'm down here and he's down there. It hurts me sometimes, but at the end of the day, I made the decision. So, I have to deal with that. But I can tell everybody he going to grow up. He going to know the truth. He's going to know I fucked up. So if he accepts it, then we go from there. If he don't, I got to deal with the consequence.

Weco: Since I've been out here, yeah, I lost more contact with my family, relationship's going lower than what it was back then. But the way I look at it, we're all borrowed in this life. We're just born one time. We're going to die at the end of the day. I told my mama that one time, I'm like, "Mom, I'm borrowed. At the end of the day, I'm really not even yours. I was born, you take care of me 18 years, and I'm gone on my own. At the end of the day, that’s what’s going to happen. Everybody continues with their own life. At the end of the day, you're going to die some day. My life is going to continue. My brother's life is going to continue. Everybody's going life continue. Why cry? Why suffer? What's the point of it?"

Isabel: Where do you live?Weco: Ecatepec. It's known for the worst area, and it's known for its... It's just known. Even Ubers won't go out there.Isabel: Really?Weco: Yeah.Isabel: I don't know anything. What's it known for?Weco: Stealing, kidnapping, killing, drugs. Yeah, it's pretty bad.Isabel: Yeah, it sounds pretty intense.Weco: It is. It is. A lot of people tell me I got to get up out of there, but I grew up out there in the States too in the hood, you know, and I like the hood. It's part of me. I

Isabel: Where do you think… you said your mom instilled that kind of mentality or value. Do you attribute a lot of your personality and stuff to your mom? Or what do you think really shaped you?Weco: I think my mom on one hand side, and the streets. My mom and the streets.Isabel: In what way?Weco: Because my mom was hard with me. She was never that, "What you need? I got you." Or "What's going on? I got you." She was like, "What's going on? That's your problem. You did that. That's your problem. You need what? Go get it yourself." I had a hard mom. I love her though, but she was pretty tough on me.Isabel: Yeah, tough love.Weco: Tough love. More than my brothers, because they can ask for, "Oh, I need this." "Get them." I don't see why she did that, but sometimes I'd be like it might've been for a good thing because I am who I am now.

Isabel: Before we get to that, just to go back a little bit, can you tell me about your deportation and return to Mexico a bit? I guess return in parentheses, since you kind of grew up...Weco: It was all right. It kind of was hard to get used to it, walking around, looking. I'm used to having my car out there, having my own things. So, having to go from a car to a train, which is a metro here, going out there, it was difficult. Food wise, I'm used to just eating anything over there and going to some quick restaurant, whatever it is, fast food.Isabel: Yeah. What do you miss the most?Weco: Where I stayed at, we had Steak 'n Shake Rally's. I miss that so much. Out here we don't have that. The only thing I've actually had out here was IHOP, which is good. I like IHOP. But other than that, McDonald's don’t taste the same, I think. It's kind of different.Isabel: No, I think that's pretty common. Do you think that your adjustment was more difficult because you didn't really grow up here at all?Weco: Yeah.Isabel: Did it feel like you were entering just a completely new country?Weco: That's what it felt like, like they just dropped me off in the jungle.Isabel: Yeah.Weco: Just said, "Here. Just go from here. You're on your own." And mainly it's just I had no family out here. They just dropped me off and said, "You're on your own."

This situation I only did in total a year and three months. I got out on bond. I went to my two immigration court dates. First one, they denied me. By the second one, my son was already born. So, my lawyer fought for it. He was like, "His first time being a father," this and that. "Give him an opportunity." They did. They gave me a bond, $8,000, so I paid it.Weco: I was out for a year, then going to a party, hanging out with the friends, I got into a fight. Things happened. Luckily, I was the only one known there at that place. It was like if we go to a party, they just know me. This person got really messed up, ended up in the hospital. Three weeks later I found out I got a warrant for my arrest. I looked up, I called my lawyer and was like, "Hey, what's going on?" He's like, "For a fight. Best thing to do is turn yourself in. You got a record of escaping." As a minor, I got two escapes. As an adult, I got one. So, I'm automatically an escapee under their eyes.Weco: So, he's like, "Turn yourself in. It looks better for you. It will make it look like you're trying to get things right, trying to do right." So I was like, "All right. Just give me a minute. Let me get some money. I got to leave some money at home, got to leave some money for me too." He's like, "All right."Weco: So, after that, I turned myself in. I did four months with the state. They dropped some of the charges, then I did some time. Then after that, immigration came and picked me up again for violating my first bond. Then that's when I actually did two years trying to fight my case.

Weco: So, after four days after I got caught, they took me to jail. I actually did eight months with federal. I did federal time first. Then the judge actually gave me time served since it was my first time. I was the first offender that was 19 years old in there. Even my lawyer that was there, she was like, "You're my first young offender here in federal court."

Weco: So, I was like, "Man. We've got an hour to get there. I got an hour to get away. Somebody is going to lose this one." So, during that process, I actually was able to take my handcuffs off.Isabel: How'd you do that? Just removed them?Weco: Yeah, I pulled them out. I pulled them out. He didn't put them on that tight. So, I pulled them out, I got loose. After that, we had a minivan. I still remember today. It's a minivan, the middle seats are not even there. I'm in the back seat. As soon as we get to where I was knowing we was going to get to, I said, "All right. We finna get off the freeway. It's a stop light. If that light turns red, I'm gone."Isabel: How old were you?Weco: I was 19, going on 20.Isabel: Was it like an adrenaline? Were you nervous? What was it like in that moment?Weco: My mind was just like, "Fuck it. It's my life or his life. It's going to be my life. He ain't going to..." I looked at it like just, "What? Just because he says and somebody higher than him says just because I'm illegal they're going to deport me? You're fucking with the wrong one. You're going to have to catch me." That's the way I looked at it. “You're fucking with the wrong one.”Isabel: So, then the light turned red, and what happened?Weco: As soon as we got there, the light was actually turning yellow. I was like, "Man, it's now or never." So, I just went ahead and got up. First thing I did was punch the window. It cracked. After that, he turned around. He was on the phone. I still remember the whole action. He was on the phone, dropped the phone. He was trying to put the car in park. He was trying to take his belt off. He was also trying to grab his gun and grab the cell phone at the same time, but it was just too much. So I just went ahead. And as soon as I punched the window, it came in my mind. I was like, "What am I doing?" I'm like, "Man, I just made this worse." So, I was like, "I might as well just complete with it."Isabel: Right. Like the damage is done, you think?Weco: If I did it, I might as well just do it. Because either way, if I don't do it, they're going to hit me with attempt to escape. It's like, "I might as well just go all the way out. I already did it." So, I just punched the window again, and my whole body went through it. I just fell, hit the floor, got up, hit the freeway, jumped a couple fences, hid through a alley, and I was gone. I was gone.Isabel: So, what happened?Weco: They didn't find me.Isabel: What?Weco: They didn't find me. It took them four days to find me.

Isabel: Can you tell me about the events that led to your deportation?Weco: Yeah. I got locked up for selling drugs, a gun-Isabel: Was it just weed or other drugs as well?Weco: Let me remember at that time. No, at the time it was weed and coke. It was weed and coke and a handgun. I got arrested for that. I actually went to trial. I won my case, but you know after that, immigration, once they get ahold of you, you got to go with them.Weco: So, they gave me a court date with them. But during that, I had to be transferred from one jail to another jail, from a state jail to an immigration jail. During that process, I asked the officer, I was like, "What's my situation look like?" Well, he told me straight up, he was like, "You're deported. Your case, you got..." So, I was like, "All right."

Isabel: Yeah, yeah. Nice. Could you tell me a bit about… I guess you said that you had a run-in with the law when you were 12. What happened there?Weco: Actually, I was 13.Isabel: Oh, 13.Weco: I was being bad. Really, I was being bad. I was with some friends, we got into some things. Got locked up, and I did some time, came out. And then from when I was 13, that's when everything started. I started going in and out, doing time, till I hit 18.Isabel: Could you tell me a bit about, I guess, more details in there, like what happened? What do you think caused that?Weco: Money. When I was 13 I liked money a lot.Isabel: Yeah.Weco: So, the streets called us a lot.Isabel: What did you like to buy?Weco: Not even really buy, just... How can I say it? I'm going to just say how it is. We used to be young, crazy. When I was 13, I caught my first burglary. We broke into a house, stole a lot of things. We got caught for it. After that, since we got placed on probation, that's when it all started.

Weco: In the States, Indiana.Isabel: Indiana.

Just to start, could you tell me, I know you were three years old, but a bit about what motivated your family to migrate to the United States?Weco: I'm not sure. I just know economic-wise

Ivan: In this case Mexico, they need to change the way they think. How can I put it in words? Mexico is even, I would say, I don't know. I don't know about that one. They tried to make changes in the past, but it hasn't worked. The major problem here in Mexico is the corruption. It's all of Mexico is, the way it is right now, because corruption is just with corruption. I will say like, I don't know, I don’t know. I don't know how to change that, how would they do that? Because every time a new president comes in, they're like, "Okay, we're going to make a change, everything's going to change, no more corruption." And then they get to the power and they forget about that. They want everything for them, so I don't know how they will change corruption in this country. Because I will say they, they change the whole government. They make a new system, but people still going to be corrupt. I don't know how to answer to that one. That one's tough.

Ivan: Be more open minded. I mean, we're in 2019, that kind of thinking like, oh, we're just a race, we don't accept you because you have a different skin tone. I don't think that kind of thinking fits in anymore because we're a society, we keep evolving as humans because we've been evolving since we were first here in the Earth. And it's not just physically, it is intellectual. Your mind just keeps growing and keeps growing, keeps growing, keeps growing nonstop. And I think welcoming people from another ethnic groups is part of evolution. It's going to happen one day. Especially the government now is trying to stop it, but that is going to happen someday. And I would say what the United States as a country needs to do is embrace the evolution. Yeah.

Ivan: Let's see here. I will say that the United States made me… more adaptable to any situation. Any situation I can go through, like I will adapt to. And that's what the United States taught me, be adapt to any situation. And what else, and socially speaking and professionally speaking, like I became a really adaptable person. That's what I learned from the States. And of course, the language comes with it, speaking two languages. I think anywhere in Latin America it’s a plus. So that was it, it made me a really adaptable person.

Ivan: At this time, at first I stayed with one of my uncles. And I found out there were call centers so I was like, okay, let's give it a shot. So I started working in a call center. The pay was not bad, but it wasn't that good. So it was like, okay, I can deal with this. And at this point I was like, nah, I'm not going back to the States. I lost, I had to sell my photography equipment. I lost most of it. I had three cameras. I end up just with one camera. And I tried to do photography here.

van: In this case, I messed up. In this case I messed up. I was coming back from a party. I was drinking and driving and I got pulled over. And that's how I got deported the second time. I recognize that was my fault. You should not drink and drive, but I did it and this was four years ago.Anne: So was it a quick deportation, you came back quickly or you had to stay detained?Ivan: Okay. Yeah. I had to stay detained. I stayed about seven months between countyjail and immigration.

Anne: What were your dreams? You were living the American dream, but what was that dream, what did you see yourself becoming in the future?Ivan: Okay. Definitely I wanted to establish my company. I wanted to get to the point that I didn't have to work, I will have people working for me. And getting there, it was part of the dream. But my dream, it was like, okay, have your photography business and then come back to Mexico and just leave it there, and just making money.Anne: So your dream was to be really successful with your photography, but then goback to Mexico?

van: The second time I went back to North Carolina. I stayed there. That's when I started doing photography again. I met this friend, he was into photography. He knew I did some photography in the past. So we got together and I started a business doing photography.Anne: Did you study anymore photography or-Ivan: Yes. I kept studying, but by myself. Because I'm not going back to college, so I did some ... By this time I realized that YouTube was really amazing to learn whatever.Anne: YouTube, yeah.Ivan: YouTube, that's what I learned most of photography I know. So I learned on YouTube. I started working with this friend and that's what I did. I would do painting jobs, like painting houses during the week from seven to four or five, after that I would get to home. I would do some photoshop, editing, and on the weekends I'll go just take photographs. I most did Quinceañeras and weddings photography.

Anne: So you crossed the border again?Ivan: Mm-hmm (affirmative), I crossed the border again.Anne: Was that tough?Ivan: Yes, it was tough. I was actually lucky. Some people I heard they spent even a month trying to cross and I crossed just within a few days.Anne: Oh wow. So did you walk?Ivan: This was in Tamaulipas. It was a river. I crossed the river then.Anne: On an inter tube?Ivan: No, it's just a river, like a floating, how do you call these things? Just swimming.Anne: Oh, you swam.Ivan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I swam with some other eight people, eight people. Just a group of eight people. We crossed the river, it wasn't that long. Then there were some woods then we stay there for a while. And then after the woods there was some suburbs and then there was a car waiting for us. It was a small car. It was, do you know Neon Dodge?Anne: Yeah, Neon Dodge.Ivan: Neon Dodge. So it's a pretty small car. Yes. We all got into the car. And then they took us to a house. We stayed there for the rest of the day. When we crossed the river, it was around 10 o'clock in the morning.Anne: Uh-huh. (affirrmative)Ivan: And then when we got to the house, it was about 12. We stayed there in the house already in the States. And then we stayed there until like nine o'clock in the night. And then after that, we got into a trailer truck in the top. There is a part in the top, I don't know how to call it, but there's a part, there was a hole and we all got in there. And he drove us all the way to ________ and that was it. That's how I crossed. I spent a whole night in there laying. We all were laying.Anne: Was it scary?Ivan: Yeah. It was scary. It was scary especially when you get to the checkpoint. You know they tell us, whenever you hear the truck stopping, don't even breathe. Yeah. So it was scary, but I got the chance to cross. The first time I crossed, I crossed with my uncle. My cousins they're like my age and my brothers. So we crossed pretending we were his kids. That was the first time.Anne: Yeah. That was easier?Ivan: That was easier, way easier.

Ivan: No. That time I was 19. And I had missed so much from this country. I didn't know where to go, how to move around. I didn't know anything. So I stayed here for three months and I tried to look for jobs. But at that time the industry was so different. There was not a lot call centers. I didn't know I could go to a call center because I spoke English and just get a job. So it was hard for me. I was looking for some other options and I was not able to get a job. So I was like, hmm, I need to go back.

Ivan: And they started asking me questions, not related to the case. They're asking me also, "How do you cross?" And they started asking me these questions. I'm like, "Why do you care, is this not related to this?" And they didn't ask me anything else. So I went to jail. And at that time whenever you get to jail, of course, they look at you, your profile, like “oh you're Mexican so you must not be legal.” So they contacted ICE and that was it.Anne: Did you try to fight the case or you did not?Ivan: I didn't. By that time I was feeling depressed. I was like, I'm getting deported, so might as well. I don't care. I'm just going to go home. So I got deported just like that.

Anne: And how did the police find you? You said you were deported for having an illegal ID, which I guess you used to work.Ivan: This is funny because that ID I got it in North Carolina. This ID, I will use it anywhere, actually whenever I get stopped by the police, I will show him this ID. I don't know, probably was a percolation from North Carolina. They will alert you. It was not a ID from the government, but I don't know if somehow it was the account. You can identify yourself with that ID. And that would work fine in North Carolina. So this same ID, when I moved down to Texas, I brought it with me. But I didn't know. I didn’t know. I didn't even research.Ivan: So one time I was coming from the movie theater with my friend and it was pretty late at night because the movie ended like 12. So it was like 12:30, we were driving back home. My friend was driving, I was in the passenger seat and then this police pulled us over and he was like, "Oh no, it's just a checkup." They always ask for identification. So I show him this ID and it never crossed my mind. It never crossed my mind like I will get in trouble just for showing this ID. And they were looking, well, they took a long time, they came back and they were like, "Where do you get this ID?" And I told them. And there was a number in the back that they could call, but it was so late in the night. The police was like, okay, well, they interrogated me for a long time, asking me these questions. Well, at the end they decided to arrest me because they didn't know if the ID was legit or not. So I was like, oh, well what can I do? So they arrest me.

van: Okay. So when I went to college, I went to a community college. The tuition was pretty high for me. I managed the first semester, but it was like I was…Anne: You were out of residence.Ivan: Yeah, it was so expensive. It was almost a triple I was paying from the other students. I was trying, I really tried.Anne: Was there something you wanted to study?Ivan: Yes. I was studying photography, so I did one semester and I had to work. And I had to pay school and I have to go to school. I managed to, to do it the first semester, but after that it became harder. So I have to stop going because I could not afford it anymore because I have to work, pay rent, help my mom, because by that time, she didn't have a really good job. So that also, it was one thing that-

Ivan: Huh. That actually, I forget to mention. Besides these people and Mexicans, there were gangsters in school, but I don't know, I was never inclined to go that way. I never liked to dress like that. I never liked to act like that. So that's probably why I never went that path and definitely what my mom taught me. She always been a patient woman. She always taught me to respect others. So probably that helped a lot, what my mom taught me. And I will see these people dressing like that, acting like that, I was never like that. So probably that's why I never went to that path.

Ivan: What I like, all the programs they had. I was on the Spanish club. We made up a club for dancing and they even teach, how do you say when they teach you to drive?Anne: Drivers Ed?Ivan: Yeah, that was something cool for me as well. So I would say high school, it was the most amazing experience I had in the States.Anne: That’s great. That’s great. Did you make lots of friends?Ivan: Oh yeah. Definitely.

Ivan: Well, I knew I was undocumented, but I started realizing I was in danger when I started driving and working. But that time I was like, I need to be careful all the time. I'm not getting stopped or anything. When I was in high school, all the school process, I was happy. But whenever I had to go to work, that was like, I need to be careful. Those are the times I realized, this is not my country. I was not born here. So if I do anything wrong, I will be sent back.

Ivan: Well, it was up and downs. I had to work. I had to go to school and take care of my siblings because my mom was working all the time. So I would go to high school but the time I went to 10th grade, I started working, part-time. So I would go to school, work, and the weekends take care of my siblings. But my mom managed to take us out from time to time. So she would take a day off and just go out to the water park. And that was new to me. Like everything in the States, everything I would go. Especially the water park, when I went the first time, I was like, “Whatttt!”. Yeah. I didn't know things like that, the slides. That was so incredible. So I will say that it was up and downs. Definitely when I drove to work, I always afraid because I might get stopped or anything.

Anne: But when you left at 13, was that tough to leave, had you been living with your grandparents?Ivan: I was living with my grandparents here in Mexico.Anne: And your family and your friends, was that tough?Ivan: Well for me it was not hard just because I was going with my mom, I was going to get reunited with my mom. So I was so happy.Anne: That’s true.Ivan: Yeah. I missed her so much. So I was like, no, I don't like here, it didn't interest me. Not even my grandma or grandparents. They were fine, but I miss my mom.

Ivan: And learning a new language, that was definitely a challenge. It took me about three years to fully understand the language. I think most of the difficulties had, it was like I was shy. I was shy speaking another language. I'll always think like, “Oh maybe they will not understand me.” That's something that always kept me not moving on. Because I was always shy. I was always afraid, but I don't know. One time, I just started talking, that's when I started working. I was like, well, I have to communicate. So I started not being shy anymore. And school was a really good experience.

Ivan: Okay. So I was 13 years old when I first got to the United States. At that time, my mom was already in the United States. She'd been living in the United States for about two years by then. And the circumstances why we moved to the States, just seeking better opportunities because by that time, we didn't have like a lot, what would you say that ... Here in Mexico, we didn't have a stable life. We didn't even have the needs, we didn't even have a house. So my mom moved to the States and after two years, she brought us to the States. When I first got to the States, it was a whole new thing, different language, different people, different culture. And not just one culture, it was a mixture. You don't only have people from one region, it's like a lot of races, if I can put it that way.

JC: Just figure out another way. You don't have to let us back, but just figure out another way to let us do things. You don't have to fix my life, but stop wrecking more lives. You don't have to fix my son's life, but don't take another person's son’s life away from them too. What's happened to me has already happened, I'm trying to deal with it. Hopefully one day I'll get to go back, but you should stop doing it to other people. It's not a good thing, and it's not going to stop. It hasn't stopped or diminished, it's actually increased in the past seventeen years that I've been here. So as far as that it's going to get better and all this stuff that's being put out by the parties or whatever, government will be, that this is actually going to fix it— I'm living proof because I've been here for seventeen years, and I've seen how this situation has only gotten worse, and the way that it's going it doesn't look like it’s going to get any better.

Claudia: All right, so now going back to coming to Mexico, you mentioned in the survey bureaucratic difficulties as one of the challenges, can you speak a little bit more on that?JC: Yes, most definitely. First of all, you know you're coming from the States, you look like you're from the States, and you're in any border town, you're going to get gaffled up by the police. Especially if you're hanging out, because obviously you've got no home, you ain't got all the money in the world to be hoteling it, so eventually you're going to be hanging out somewhere—I could talk about Monterrey and Tijuana because I've been to both of them. If you don't have an ID, they could just pick you up and take you to jail for thirty-six hours without you having anything or having done anything. I think it's some law called conflictive zone or something like that.JC: But any border town has that law. How am I going to have an ID if I don't have any paperwork, I don't even know where to get one? I don't have a residence so now I'm just going to be hiding from the police running every time they come. So that's just to begin with. Once you get started and try to do whatever you've got to do, it costs a pretty penny to try and get your stuff together. Luckily, I had my mom in the United States, she was able to send me my birth certificate. With that I got started or else I would have had to pay a couple thousand pesos just to get that. And where would I get the money from once again if I'm not working, right?JC: So, we're back again to very, very, very few options. We're kind of in the continuation of the systematic thing that's going on in the States. I’m sure somebody that's planning to deport somebody thinks about what may or may not happen during that process. So, I'm sure that a person sitting in the States figures that in order to be a justified US citizen you must have some sort of documentation verifying who you are. So it should be like that in any country. Right? But they know they're not providing us with that. So basically they're setting us up to be in the same crime. Who's going to hire me? Who's going to provide me with an opportunity to get all my stuff together? Where is the funds going to come from to be able to get established? You know what I'm saying?JC: Aside from that I've got to already run from the cops every time that I see them because I don't have an ID. You're already institutionalized, you come from a place where the mentality is already wicked, right? So, it's an ongoing thing, it's a snowball thing, it's not just a one thing, it's a continuation of the same thing. I didn't jump from one stage to another, I'm living the continuation of my deportation. This moment is a continuation of my deportation and if it would ever help me to get back [Chuckles], that would be great, but this is just something else that continues off of the same scenario, people getting deported. Living environments, predispositions. That's pretty much it.

Why doesn't the Mexican government validate the American paperwork, and why do you think that people in Mexico have such a negative perception of returning migrants?JC: First of all, most people right away think and they're not entirely wrong, “Bad people man. They're getting deported, they're coming from prison.” So I think justifiably the Mexican people have somewhat the right to be afraid of us. I'm going to explain to you why. Because just like we're fed stuff that is said about the American people, the Mexican people are also fed stuff about what the Mexican people living in the United States are like, and that's not a pretty picture. I can say that very, very strongly because I have some really, really nice friendships with people here in Mexico that have costed me a long time to be able to come about to be, because of the apprehensions that they had over the fact that I was a deportee. So it's difficult, it's a difficult question.JC: That people don't look at us the right way—with a lot of reason—but it's like we're being projected in a certain way. I think the only way that we could get rid of that is by doing programs that allow people to see us in a different way. Whatever it would be. Have people out there working to ... how can I say it, to kind of lobby us into regular jobs. So people could see like, “Hey there's this guy all tatted up working in an office building. He was pretty cool, he's an intelligent guy. He's not that bad. He's not a drug addict. I mean he looks like he's not that type of person, you know.” Where they could might give us a chance, and that I think will chain ball into people thinking it different.JC: There's always a difference as far as the tattoos are concerned, Mexican people before, if they've seen somebody with a tattoo, I mean it was practically call the cops on them, now everybody has them. It's a culture thing now. So, I think they're going to come around. But as far as with the deportees in particular, we need to be projected into regular, everyday tasks, so people can kind of look and learn type deal, you know? That's how I think it could be solved.

JC: We haven't learned to value ourselves. We haven't learned to accept, let people in general know the value that we have to them as a country and as individually. We add to the culture of the United States. We work the jobs that nobody wants to work, all the jobs that are paid too little for people to even want to work them. That's the things that we need. Those are the programs that we need to send money into. Privately if need be. I would give whatever I make here, I would give money if they would say “Hey we're starting a center where we're going to develop Hispanic leaders to get people out of gangs and off the streets and off drugs.” I would give to that. I've lived through it, I know what it's like and I know it's eventually not going to end up right so I would want to avoid that for another human being, right? I think that's what we need.Claudia: This is a similar question, but on the other hand, what can the Mexican government do to prevent migrants who return from turning to crime and gangs and organized crime I guess, all of that, upon their return to Mexico?JC: There's nothing Mexico can do at this time for us. At all. Because they need to get over their corruption first. A sick man cannot help a sick man, right? So, it's never going to happen. These guys are never going to care about us. Imagine this, so Mexican government gets some funds to help out their local community. Let's say a park. So, they're going to clean up a park and they're going to put new swings or whatever. They're going to steal half of that money, and this is for the people who are actually normal people. Now take a guy with no documentation, all tatted up, that doesn't even know the language correctly, that has to run from the cops every time that he sees them, do you think that these guys are going to care about them when they're provided funds for them to do something for them? Oh no, it's not going to happen.JC: So the first thing Mexico needs to do is heal before they can start trying to help heal others. We're never going to get any help. The only people that can help us is other people, maybe like myself. Maybe if one day I have something I'll be able to go over there and maybe start a little home where people could come and get their stuff straight and go on about their business, right? But Mexico can't help us. They're not ready.

JC: [Scoffs, Pause] You know what would be crazy? Maybe it's asking too much and it's an outrageous dream, but I have thought about this before. Why don't you stop messing with us, and you know there's a border, and there's Mexico and there's the US, right? So there should be like a place where people could live that you could actually still be with your family. Like a tolerated area, kind of like either in Mexico or the US, because breaking up families sucks. My kids, I'm telling you, my kids have daddy issues real bad. Probably my son will end up in prison one day. And that really sucks.

JC: First of all, give them paperwork to begin with. That's the least you could do. That's not even a necessity, that's just a right. You had to be somebody. I wouldn't put that as a suggestion, I would put that as a definite must. Then as a suggestion, maybe try to open up some centers—not the migrant centers where migrants come from other parts of the country and even further down south and they take care of them, no, the reverse. More centers where they help people like us to get started. I know there's a couple of them. I know the guy here, I've heard about him, he's doing a good thing. Hopefully it pans out, I wish I could help.

JC: Well I'm going to be honest with you, okay? Not in soccer [Both laugh]. But all the other sports obviously yes. My favorite team, and I hate to admit it, has been the Rams ever since Jerome Bennis was with them back in the early 90s. I remember the LA Lakers—also my favorite team back in the day when Abdul Kareem Jabbar and Magic Johnson were still in the team—way back before Magic had AIDS. Obviously, the Dodgers, I love going to the stadium. When I couldn't get into Dodgers Stadium, I remember going in front right over the five freeway, right at Griffith Park, and I'd watch the game straight from the park, just across the freeway you could look right into the field. I mean all of that, of course, I love all of that. I love fourth of July, I love going to Long Beach on fourth of July and watching the pier fireworks, all of that.

JC: Yes, of course. As I mentioned, I feel American. So obviously I have very, very rooted patriotic type things in me, about the United States, even though I haven't been treated correctly I feel, it makes no difference. I know I was maybe not the best guy, but anyway. Of course, I grew up watching TV, I've seen all the Budweiser commercials and all the American flags flying and halftime at the Super Bowl and all of that [Claudia laughs]. So, of course I feel that, of course.

Claudia: I'm curious as to how you've been able to go from being a part of a gang to being a part of that lifestyle in the States to doing what you're doing now in Mexico and leaving that behind, and kind of the thought process behind that decision.JC: Basically, I was stuck at a point where I'm in a place where I don't want to be and I'm always thinking of a place where I'm not going to be at, so I've got to start doing something to get to where I want to be. I figured I got to start laying down a track record. So eventually, when I do attempt to try to do something about this situation, I have something to back me up. Like hey man look at me, this is me, this is the guy you're dealing with. It's been this much time. This is where you left me and look at where I'm at. I want to see my family, I want to hold my kids.

JC: Yes. Yes. Well I feel like I'm from there, I'm just rejected. It's kind of like the black sheep of the family. The whole family is rejecting you. But I'm American, everything I do is American, the way I think is American, my speaking is American, my thoughts are American. I don't process words in Spanish. You speak to me in Spanish, I've got to translate from English to Spanish to speak to you. You know? So yes, I'm just kind of a non-wanted American child then. That's the way I feel pretty much.Claudia: That's a very good way to put it. I think it really comprises a lot of what we've been hearing.JC: Yes. Because it's true. You know, my whole mentality—I could tell you program shows from probably even before you were born such as the “Howdy Doody” show. And stuff like, the first words that would ever come out of my mouth in English and at that age if I'm barely learning to speak anyway, so you know, we're American. My solution is that's why I'm so successful in my job, because when American customers call in and they have issues and they need to talk to somebody who understands their way of thinking then they put me on the phone, because I understand the way they look at things. See, American people are real practical, right? It works or it don't work. If it don't work, why don't it work, I need it to work, and if I'm entitled to something, make it work. That's the way they think, and Mexican people don't think like that. A lot of people, they're bilingual, they go and take calls, but they don't understand the American thinking aspect of things. So they're unable to communicate.

JC: Rough. Really, really rough. As I mentioned, you've got no paperwork right here in Mexico, you've got no paperwork, you're a nobody. It's not like they run your prints like in the states and they know who you are, it's not like that. So basically, you're nobody. You have to start with the most menial jobs. Obviously hazardous probably to your health or whatever—very bad pay, and you're subject obviously to living … How could I put it this way? You live at the expense of what you're making, which means if you have a menial job, you have a menial life. Simple as that. So very much a lot of things missing from my home. Wasn't able to take a shower, a hot shower, for years, two years, three years—I think until I was more or less on my feet, because it does take a while.

JC: I just remember that ... I was real young, and I never really cared about that to be honest with you. I know it's kind of dumb. But I grew up like if I was a kid from over there. I had all these struggles going on, but basically, I never thought about Mexico, ever coming back, it never even crossed my mind. That's not something that I thought of. I thought I would be living with mom and dad. Basically all I remember is that all you have to do is prove that you have been going to a public school for five years or more and if you were underage, automatically your paperwork would start. And I was provided with a social security number and everything. So I even had a social security number.Claudia: And you still got deported.JC: Yes.Claudia: Yes.JC: Yes, so I would imagine, I see a lot of people that didn't have anything at all, and they were having action for the same things I was getting deported for, and I was wondering why. But they knew what they were doing. The court system and the law system in general, it's a psychological game. And they know how to play it real well. They know where to put pressure. So, they knew what to do with me when I was at that point where like sign here, get out, or stay here. They know what they're doing. And the public pretender, because they're not defenders, that they gave us, they didn't provide much help. They basically reiterated what the previous person had said to us. They weren't no help.

JC: I got busted for—I think it was possession of a controlled substance. It had been a series of things, it was escalating, but it wasn't like I tried to kill somebody or murdered anybody. It was just like I was just a kid who loved to get high and be in the street.Claudia: How old were you at that time?JC: I was about twenty-five. So then anyways, I went to prison and after that I went to the feds, did the fed time. And about a month before I was to get out … Oh another thing, when you're a person that's going to get deported or they've got you written down like that—somebody should at least hear this—you can't even get a job in federal prison if you're not a legal citizen. But you're forced to live there. So, if you've got a case number where you're going to be deported, you can't work and get paid like every other individual does. Or at least at the time that I was there, and I was at Jessup State Prison now.JC: So even before you even get out you've got to find what to do—you find yourself tattooing somebody, scarring them up for the rest of their life because you want to put some in your locker, you want to eat something. So, there you go. Pick up another six months, thank you very much sir. “Can I have a job?” ”No you can't.” Then you get out and, as I mentioned they don't give you any valid job in the US, and even if you get a little check, it's going to be a big old thing for you to even cash it in Mexico. You get robbed for like I don't know, say 20% of whatever you've got. So, if you've got $20 and that's going to be like 400 pesos for you, and they're taking 50, that's going to hurt you. So that's another thing.

JC: As far as the migrants here, we're having a real bad time. It's not easy. Sixty-five pesos an hour sounds like a lot to somebody who lives here, but I want to take my family out for a vacation and I'm never going to be able to do that with sixty-five pesos an hour. Never, ever going to be able to do that. I'll save ten years and won't have enough money. These are things that are going on. People get deported, nobody cares about them. You're trash on the street. They don't even care enough to give you a piece of paper that's valid in Mexico. So you get out, you're nobody. Just because you get out dressed because you just got out of prison and they just did you over, you're clean, you just took a shower, but they just give you a dirty blanket and put dirt on your face, you're any guy on the street. You know what I mean? That's what's going on. So we've got to start from nothing.

JC: You can't just keep sticking people in prison all the time, you can't keep throwing them away. The problem is still there, you can't hide it anymore. It's happening. People are going out, and people are shooting people. The laws are getting stricter and people out there, they think if I'm going to go to prison for the rest of my life I might as well hold court right here in this place. And the government knows that if a father figure is not home their kids are more than likely going to end up being a low paid slave laborer in prison as well. Those are numbers, and that's something that can't be denied, you know? I was stupid and I fell into that number game. I regret that, but somebody needs to hear that, they need to know what's really going on.

JC: Most definitely. Most definitely. Once we moved out of the first home we were staying in where it was predominantly all white—even though it's the San Gabriel Valley, Arcadia is predominantly white. After we moved out of there, we went over to Monterrey Park, it was a Hispanic community. This situation as a kid, I encountered gangs. My parents weren't home, and I would go to the park after school and the local rec department, play the little board games, but that's over at like five or six. My folks don't get home until eleven, I don't have anything to do, so I stayed at the park and I started hanging out, getting to know the local gang members. That's how I first encountered that situation.Claudia: Did you ever get involved in any of them?JC: Yes, I did.Claudia: Can you tell me a little about how that was like and what you did?JC: I wouldn't like to recount on the things I did because they're not something that I'm really proud of. But [Pause] I can say that I wish I had another chance. That's pretty much it. Recounting everything is kind of like a pointless situation, it's just a lot of suffering worded in different ways. I'm sure I'm not the first guy who probably told you that. The fact of the situation is simple—and I think it's better to be put this way—there's a lot of suffering going on, and it's not just me. It's a question of not only who you are or where you live or if you speak English or you don't, most people that go from here to the United States, they go to work and when they've got small children those children are alone at home. There isn't much for us out there, especially when we don't even know the language, so the only people that will stick their hand out to us or say "Hey, you're okay," are these guys.JC: You guys might call them scum, but they're the guys that lifted my hand. They're the guys that told me you're okay, they're the guys who told me we don't care if you speak English or not. So, they kind of became my family, I had no other choice, you know? So that's how I encountered them.

JC: Well it's a combination of different factors. As just a regular teen, just to go through that is kind of awkward. You're in a rough spot. Being—how could I put it this way—of Hispanic descent in an area where it's not predominately Hispanic is also very difficult. The fact that you don't have anybody to express your situations to—because there's always my father and my mother, but they would never understand the situation I would encounter in high school because it's a whole different culture, they never experienced that—it's a very lonely time. And also hormones going around, and wanting to experience let's go to here, let's go there. Mr. Doltree was very important in that, trying to keep me settled down and keep me in sports. He's very good at that.

JC: Oh yes. Most definitely. Mrs. Hera, she was my third grade teacher. She was of Japanese descent, and she was real cool. She was the person who showed me that you have to be proud about your heritage. Also, another person that was very important in my school was Mrs. Mercado. She was real important because when I started going to school in the United States they didn't have a program called ESL, which is now known as English as a second language—that just simply didn't exist. When that program came out, Mrs. Mercado was the one that actually took that program into my school. She's the actual first person who ever showed me what something actually was in English and in Spanish, where I actually knew for a fact that's what it was, because my parents couldn't help me with that.JC: Another teacher of mine that got me to start taking advanced math classes, he kind of thought that I had talent for it, was Mr. Mulligan. He was right, I ended up doing pretty good. So those three. Also, when I was in high school I think Mr. Doltree, he was an ex-professional football player, he was a coach there, and he had a big impact on me. Those high school years were rough and he kept me kind of in line right there. That was good.

JC: Just watching cartoons I guess. I remember I used to watch a program called “Bewitched” a lot. I used to think it was funny how one of the characters on there would talk and I would always try to imitate him. And somewhere along the line I started putting words with the actual objects and so on like that until I could actually start conversing. I think that's how it happened.

JC: One of my earliest memories of the U.S. I remember as a young person was walking into a supermarket called Albertsons. I don't even think it exists anymore. I remember walking into that supermarket and all the smells and everything that you would see was just unreal from everything I had experienced earlier in life—I had never seen anything like that. I will always remember that, going into the store and seeing everything all stacked up nice and neat and the smells that were there.

Juan: Yes. There's a lot of things that the Mexican government can do. Well, personally, I have family here, my aunt, and she was nice enough to allow me to stay in her house. In that part, I didn't struggle to have a house, but there's people who do come back and don't have any family here, or they do have family, but they've been rejected by them and they don't have anywhere to stay. I don't know if maybe having shelters for them.Juan: I know New Comienzos helps people who … Sometimes they do go to the airport and they do welcome them to Mexico. I haven't seen any other community do that for their own people. New Comienzos does stand out because they do go out of their way to make you feel at home. When I had just recently got here, New Comienzos helped me out as well and I felt like I was part of a community, that I wasn't alone, that I have somebody else to help me out.Juan: If maybe helping out New Comienzos grow bigger, or making new communities for people who do come back, get deported, help them with shelters, work, emotionally. There's a lot of things that the government can do, a lot of programs that they can provide. For example, my program that I want to give out, making houses out of plastic for people who can't afford them. I can make them affordable so they can live there and they can have this at home.Juan: Then, build a community where we all help each other, change the way people see things here in Mexico, have them have a different point of view in life, grow as a community, help each other out. There's a lot of things that the government can do, but, unfortunately, won't be done because of the current government that we have. When we get into politics, there's a lot of things that just— we all see positive things, but with all the corruption here in Mexico, it's hard.Juan: Unless we change the government and we put somebody who's a doctor or an architect or an engineer to become president and they have a different point of view, not just the political view, we won't be able to change anything. It's more of a Mexico thing. I guess we're not going so far; we have Trump right now. I'm not sure how you guys feel about Trump. The way I

Anne: How about immigration? When you think about the immigration policy in the US, do you have suggestions for how it might change?Juan: Right now, the latest news that I heard was they say that for the DACA people who have it, they're having a way for them to be citizens in the future, that they're not going to remove that. That's a good thing for my brother, because he's still over there and he still has DACA. One thing that I would want to consider was are the parents who actually do go out and who have been living in the shadows, who just go to work, go home, go to work and go back home, who just want to provide for their families, maybe look into those parents and help them.Juan: I don't know if they get citizenship or get something so they don't have to be in the shadows. Because a perfect example, my dad, he's been in the US for twenty years now, and he's never received a DUI, he's never been in jail. He's received tickets, traffic violations, but in the twenty years he's been there, he's maybe had six or five. People like that, or like my mom, who's a home … How do you say? A home-stay mother who takes care of her daughter, who takes her to school, makes sure that her daughter is not home alone, is on top of her school, goes to the parent-teacher conference. In a way, maybe look out for those kind of people or immigrants who actually don't do any harm to society. I do know there's other people who are bad or are out doing trouble, getting DUIs, stuff like that. But there's people who hide in the shadows who are good people, hardworking people that just want to provide a better future for their family.Juan: Maybe help them, provide them with DACA or something like that. A program for them.

Juan: Yes, because I lived in Provo, where all the Mormons are, and most of them are humble, most of them are nice people. I guess I got used to that. So at the moment, right now, I don't think I will ever adapt to the way people are here in Mexico. I don't know if you've met Mexicans who are from not the center, but the outside of the cities, their personality is just a lot different than a US citizen. They have different thoughts, different priorities, which makes them have different personalities.Juan: In that way, I am thankful that I grew up in the US, because the way that I am, I consider myself somebody who's humble. I don't really like to get in discussions or stuff like that. I'd rather just do my own thing, be respectful to everybody. The way you treat me is how I will treat you, that's the way I will always treat people with respect and stuff like that. In that way, I am thankful that I grew up in the US because I do have a different lookout in life.Anne: What do you miss most about the US?Juan: The vegetation, the nature, because I remember in the US I can go out in the soccer fields and there's actual grass. The mountains.Anne: It's beautiful.Juan: Yes. That's what I miss most about it, the nature.

Juan: When I had first come back, my plan was to graduate from college and go back to the US, because that's where I feel happy, but that's no longer my vision. I want to stay here, I want to help out my country because I love Mexico. I love the culture, I love the people. But unfortunately, because of the politics, the corruption, Mexico isn't so well. I know me, as an individual, I can make an impact on society, on the communities. I know that with my career as an architect I can make it happen.

Juan: Because there's a lot of potential in Mexico that I didn't see because I was in the US, but now that I'm here, I see how my actual home country is. I know if I work hard, I can make an impact to my society. I can make a change, and that's pretty much my goal. I want to make an impact. I want to use my architectural skills and my construction skills that I'm developing right now.

Juan: Hopefully, once we get that going, we can get some houses here in the city, in the center. Then that way I can manage that then pay off school and work with that. My main goal is to be able to pay back … So my parents can say that they're proud of me, that the help that they provided me, it wasn't for nothing. Because how I see it is this thing could have gone both ways. I could've come back to Mexico and then I could've been in depression and started hanging out with the wrong people.Juan: Not go to school, not get a job, just not care of what had happened. But I decided to not go that route, to actually put an effort in my life, to have the ambition to grow as a person individually, also as a career, to grow. So, one day my parents can be like, "We're proud of you and we've always believed in you and the help that we provided you wasn't for nothing." I have a lot of goals in life. Actually, dealing with architecture.Juan: My plan is I want to have enough money so I can build houses out of plastic—not in the center because it's already big enough. I want to build houses out of plastic in the outside of the city, in Ixtapaluca, Chignahuapan, the outside parts of the city where it's really rural, really rough sizes, and help back to the community, be able to provide with houses that they are able to afford, but there are also houses that are … How do I say it? Houses that are … I had the word.Anne: Environmentally sound, maybe? Good for the environment?Juan: Yes. Good for the environment. Yes, to have a decent home. Because not a lot of people here have that. Supposedly the law here says that every Mexican citizen has the right to have a decent house and obviously they don't follow that. I want to be able to provide that to the community.

Anne: How long have you been back?Juan: I've been here for three years.Anne: Is it hard?Juan: At the beginning it was hard because … Getting adapted to Mexico and not being with my family, but I was determined. I'm still determined—like I told you, right now I'm in college. I'm halfway through my career and, just recently, two weeks ago, I quit my job so I can start to look into … Because I'm done working for another company. I want to start my own company

My brother and I graduated high school. We were looking to our future—everything was doing good. We were looking into getting a house. Sometimes I do feel guilty. I’m like, because of the situation that happened for me, my parents' plans, they all went downhill and I'm just glad that they … Because one thing that I remember is that when they first took me in jail, they're like, "You have one call."Juan: I called my dad and I was crying. I was like, "Dad, I'm in jail." He was like, "Why?" I'm like, "They're accusing me of this." And he just said, "Don't say anything. We're going to get a lawyer and just hang in there." My dad, he did everything in his power to help me out. He didn't know what happened [Emotional], but he believed in me because he knew that the kind of person that I was, and so then my mom ... All my friends, they didn't help me at all. It was my parents who went to the trials and stuff like that. [Chuckles]

I got accused of something, which was a really big deal, and it all went downhill from there. I got accused and then I was working one day and the cops came looking for me and they were like, "Are you Juan?"Juan: I'm like, "Yes," so they're like, "You're being accused of this and that," and then I got sent to jail. I was being accused of a first-degree felony, so they were like, "If you're found guilty of a first-degree felony, you can take up to six to twenty years in prison." Right there, my whole life was—I hit the bottom. I was nineteen with a first-degree charge and it all went along, my parents, they got me a lawyer.Juan: I was in jail for five months fighting my case and then they found out that I wasn't guilty, so this is something really strange because—Anne: They found out you weren't guilty.Juan: Yes, I wasn't guilty. I was proven innocent, but the thing is that since it was a first degree felony, they usually don't drop it down. This is what I found out when I was in jail—because you learn things when you're in jail—that when you have a first-degree felony, they drop it down to a second or third degree and then they give you a plea. How do you say it? Yes, a plea.Anne: A plea.Juan: That wasn't my case, because I couldn't live with the felony on my record. From a first-degree felony, they dropped it down to a Class A misdemeanor, so obviously I wasn't guilty at all. I was proven innocent after five months [Chuckles].Anne: Couldn't they just wipe it out altogether? Why did it have to be a misdemeanor?Juan: Because the state couldn't lose, that's the thing. When you're in jail, you learn a lot of things and my lawyer at the moment, he explained everything. If we were to take it to trial and the state loses, it's going to look bad on them. Obviously, they're not going to let me live clean. They're going to want me to take one charge at least. So, what they did was, from a first-degree felony, they dropped it down to a Class A misdemeanor.Juan: They couldn't take off all of the charges because that would mean taking it to trial—it's going to cost a lot of money—so they were like, "Accept the plea deal and then you're free to go, but you will have the Class A misdemeanor. With time and with the lawyer, you can remove it from your record, but not a felony. A felony will always be on your record.” So, I took the deal, and then as soon as I took the deal, I was free to go, but immigration got me right there.Juan: Immigration got me, they removed my DACA, and after that I started my process with immigration. I was in jail for, in total, eight months. Five with the state then three with immigration. I think I would have been able to stay if I was married to a US citizen or if I'd had a kid, or if I had something that tied me to the US. But since I was nineteen, I wasn't married, I didn't have any kids, I didn't have anything that tied me to the US.Anne: The Class A misdemeanor, that's one of the misdemeanors that is disqualifying for DACA?Juan: Yes.Anne: Did they know? I guess your lawyer knew that this was going to happen.Juan: Yes. He knew that they were going to remove DACA.Anne: Though he told you that it's the kind of misdemeanor that you could expunge from your record?Juan: Yes.Juan: He did say we can stay, take it to trial, and here's the big dilemma. You could either win with the jury or you can lose with the jury. If you lose, then you can look up to twenty years in prison. But if you win, you live clean you know? But do you really want to take the chance? Taking it to trial does take a long time. It can take up to a year or a year and a half in jail, and I was already five months in jail. I'm like, "I don't want to be here anymore."Anne: You said that you were accused of a felony. Was it a fabricated accusation?Juan: Yes, fabricated accusation—do you mean was it made up?Anne: Yes.Juan: Yes, it was made up. It was a made-up accusation.Juan: The funny part is that once I was out of jail because … When I was with immigration, the judge found me … I wasn't a danger to society or anything like that. He let me off with a…How do you call it?Anne: A bond?Juan: With a bond, yes. Actually, it was a $10,000 bond. Then my dad came up with the money fast so that he could get me out of jail.

Juan: My plan was, when I was 16 I had received DACA. I was one of the first ones who had received it—because that's when it had barely come out. I applied for it, I got it. I think I was a junior in high school. My first job was as a dishwasher, and then from there—Anne: You got a green card so you could go to work?Juan: I don't consider DACA as a green card. It's more like a permit to work.Anne: A permit to work.Juan: Yeah, I had DACA, so my plan was to graduate high school, work for one or two years, save up money, then go to college.

In my house we spoke Spanish all the time because of my mom. To this day, she doesn't want to learn English even though we tell her to learn English. My little sister, she doesn't speak Spanish, she speaks more English and with her it's different. We tell her, "You have to learn Spanish because it's going to help you," but she doesn't want to learn.Anne: Is she a citizen?Juan: Yes, she was born in the US. So my parents didn't really adapt to the American culture. They always wanted to follow Mexican traditions, even when it's Mother's Day over there … I think here it's May 10th but over there, when is Mother's Day?Anne: I think it's the second Sunday of May, so it could be different days.Juan: We could take that as an example. They'd rather follow Mother's Day here in Mexico than over there. Also Christmas, I guess the one thing they did adapt to was Thanksgiving. We don't celebrate that here in Mexico, but they do celebrate there, and they did adapt that. Another thing, Easter day. You go out with your family, you hide the eggs as a tradition, no? They adapted to that, but here in Mexico they don't do that. They don't even know about that. In a way they wanted to keep their Mexican culture alive even though they were in the US, but they also wanted to adapt to the things that they did there.

Juan: Right now, my dad, he's always been the boss of the family. He's always worked, he works in construction, and as you know, Utah, with the climate change, it snows, it rains, all of the climates. Since he works in construction, he does work outside all the time, so even if it snows or even if it rains, even if it's minus five degrees outside, he still goes out and works because nobody's going to give him the money to provide for his family.Juan: In a way, my dad, you can say he's one of those hard working men who doesn't look out for himself, but rather looks out for his family.

Anne: Did you do well in school?Juan: Yes. Even though English was a struggle, I always tried my best, and when I was in middle school, I would get As and Bs. Then, when I was in high school, like I mentioned, I was on the soccer team, which required for you to have good grades in order to play. I really liked soccer, so that encouraged me to keep my grades up to be able to play for the soccer team. So yes, I did have good grades, you can say.Anne: What position do you play?Juan: It depends. I could play center mid or forward. But ever since I got back to Mexico, I haven't played soccer. I guess it's a personal thing. I don't find soccer fun anymore. I did play soccer—my cousin who lives here with me, he has a soccer team. All of his friends play with him, but I just don't feel like I fit in, so I played a couple of games with his team and it doesn't feel the same. I don't feel the same playing soccer as if I were to be playing with my friends in the US, so I don't know. It's been a year, year and a half, since I played soccer. I just don't feel the same about it.

Juan: I still remember in high school, my high school friends—I was in the high school soccer team, so I would talk to all of the white kids, but there were people like me who came from Mexico or came from other countries from Latin America, who … My friends who were white, they were all nice to me, but when they were talking to the other kids that were not in their circle, I could see the racist part would come out.Juan: They would tell them, "Go back to your country,” or “You can't even speak English right." Even if I didn't speak English right, they wouldn't tell me anything because I was their friend. Since the other people that weren't their friends, they would be mean to them. I guess I never really stood up for that. If it doesn't bother me, then I'll just let it be. On my behalf, I was lucky enough to be part of their culture, but I know people do struggle and people do get rejected in school, in elementary.

Anne: You immediately went to Provo, Utah. Did you know any English?Juan: No, when I went to Utah, I went into 4th grade and then I didn't know any English. What did help was that the elementary that I went to, they had an ESL—I think it's English Second Language—available for people who didn't know any English, so that helped out a lot. My brother and I didn't know any English. My mom didn't know any English. My dad didn't know any English. It was just rough.Anne: How long did it take to learn?Juan: To learn, I guess you could say by the end of high school my English, it still wasn't fluent, but the accent wasn't there as much. After I graduated high school, when I was in call centers, that's when I was able to practice my English on the daily, and I was trying to copy the way that natives spoke it. But it took me 10 years to be able to—Anne: But you were studying in an English school.Juan: Yes.Anne: You just felt your English skills were not great

Juan: No, so my mom, she did have to walk when she crossed the border, meaning she had to get smuggled in, so she crossed by walking in the mountains. My brother and I … my dad found a lady who had two young sons who looked like us. What she did is when it was night time—I was eight, my brother was nine, I still remember we were in the back seat—and then, like any other family, we crossed the border.Juan: The guy from immigration, he just dimmed his light at us and they let us pass, so we didn't struggle. We just crossed with the car like normal, but my mom, she did struggle. I think she took three weeks. From what she tells me, it's the worst thing that could happen to her. Because whenever immigration were close by, they had to hide. I guess it's do or die because people do die when they cross the border and she's one of the lucky ones that was able to make it back to their families.

Juan: Initially when I was five years old, my dad went to the US to work. He was there for three years, and then he was able to save up money to have my brother and my mom cross the border and be with him. My dad, I don't know why he chose Utah, but in specific, Provo. That's where I grew up.Anne: Provo.Juan: Yes, Provo [Chuckles]. What my dad always says is that he wanted to provide us with a better future because my dad comes from outside of the city, like the states in the south of Mexico. He lives in the small villages where the houses are still made out of mud or their houses are barely standing—where the actual Mexican culture comes from. I guess we could say the indigenous people. That's the kind of place that my dad was coming from. He just wanted to provide us with a better future than he could provide us here in Mexico. He wanted us to go with him to the US and to be able to create a better future and better opportunity for us.

Juan: And that is just my hope. That this interview can really make someone do something about it. I really would like for this to get to the right ears and really get something about it. They are wasting the immigrant talent. They are wasting everything, all these good people, bilingual people, hard-working people. They are falling between the cracks because these people, they're not paying attention to what is happening here.Juan: We know of many people, they're very talented and they can't get opportunities because they don't have an ID. For Christ's sake, they don't have an identification to get a job. I just know of a friend of mine, she was interviewed twice, and getting very good bilingual jobs. And she couldn't take them because she didn't have the identification to take the job. And that, it hurts. It hurts very much to see people struggle like that. Being discriminated and kicked out of a country that don't really like them. And then you're just hoping to make it work here in their own country, when all this government and these politicians and these people in key spots, all they care about is their pockets. All they care is their own pockets, they don't care about nothing else.

Juan: What I really want to say is that I really hope that this interview can reach some ears from the right people, to listen and to really start doing their jobs, meaning for them to start working for people. And for them to stop all the corruption and bureaucracy that we live in Mexico. All that is, it's killing this country. The corruption and the bureaucracy, politicians, bad politicians, they are killing this country. And it's terrible and it hurts because it's just a matter of, if they were doing their jobs, I can almost guarantee you that almost no Mexican people would want to go to the United States and work and find a better life. And they do, I did, because I had no opportunities, I had no opportunities here. If they were doing their jobs and they were doing what they were supposed to, many people didn't have to go, they didn't have to leave their countries and their families behind. Just because they're seeking a better life.

Adrian: Do you think there’s something, the government from Mexico, they can work together with the government of the United States so they can stop getting the families separated?Juan: I truly believe that they can. It's just, their politics get in the way. All of these immigration things, it's all about politics, it's all about control, controlling the American people and controlling the Mexican people. If they wanted to, they could have many agreements, so we didn't have to go illegally. And they could have had many, many agreements to allow people to go to work and come back. Because people don't want to go and stay. People do not want to go and stay there and live there. They want a better life. And they want to make money and many times just come back and do things that they cannot do because of the Mexican government.

Juan: I miss everything. I miss everything. There's one thing, the United States is a country of laws. It's a country of order. And that's one thing that I loved because I used to feel safe over there. I used to feel safe and I got nothing but good things to say about the United States. Because the United States gave me more opportunities than my own country gave me. And, I got nothing but love for the United States. As a matter of fact, when the war started in Iraq, I even wanted to go and fight for the United States. Not expecting anything in return, I just wanted to do that because they gave me so many opportunities that my own country never gave me. And I love the United States and that's my family's country. And I certainly, I just thought it was mine too. And I got nothing but good things to say about the United States.

Juan: We had elections, presidential elections in Mexico. And I got here on March 15. And since it was election time, they stopped issuing the only identification that a Mexican citizen can have to do anything—to open a bank account, to rent a house, to get a passport, to get a driver’s license. That identification we cannot get because they are in elections and we are not allowed to get in until the election is over, which is in July. Ever since March, I haven't been able to get an identification where I can reestablish my life precisely because I cannot open a bank account, I cannot get a job. When you get a job here, they want you to get that identification. They want you to show that identification just to show that it's you. During this time, all the deportees and people returning to Mexico are going through a very difficult time. Just because these people, all they care is about that stupid election. All they care is about getting their jobs and getting elected and all, while we ...Juan: Every single program that is supposed to be helping us, they have, quote unquote, “programs that help you with unemployment insurance” and things like that. They're supposed to help you. On the contrary, they are just giving us the long run. They are just giving us, "Oh no, they didn't authorize the payment, you need to come back the next month." And next month… It's been three months already, I have not been able to get anything from them. And I haven't been able to get a job because I don't have an identification. That is so stupid and ridiculous because how are we supposed to live? How are we supposed to pay our rent or to even get money for transportation to go and look for another job?Juan: I can go look for a job, but it doesn't matter, it doesn't do any good because I cannot identify myself. I don't have an identification to identify myself. And the same problems that I have is the same problem that I see in many, many people returning to Mexico from the United States. These people, they are in very, very bad shape. Very bad shape because they cannot get a job, they cannot open up an account, they cannot register their kids in school. They cannot do anything because the authorities, they don't care. They don't care about us, they don't care about nobody but themselves. Another thing that I hate, I hate, I hate, it's like the time stopped and it never moved. When I came back, it was the same corruption, the same corrupted politicians, the same people that, instead of helping the citizens, they're helping themselves, putting money in their pockets. And all that money that is supposed to go to our programs to help immigrants and people like us? They're going to their pockets.

Juan: When I came back, I came back by bus. And as soon as I crossed the border, the Mexican border, it seems like I stepped into another world. It was the same, the authorities, they are very rude, they are corrupt, they want money for anything. They actually stole a document from my wife. My wife, she's an American citizen, and they asked her for her passport. And for them to give her the document as she was crossing to Mexico, they charged her $60 for that document. When later I find out that it has to be free. If you register, if you tell them that you're there and all that, that document's supposed to be free. These policemen, they charged her $60. Then, when I was getting my bags checked at the customs, they wanted me to pay money to let me take my bags. And I just, I started fighting, arguing with them. Not necessarily fighting, but I was arguing with them that, why I had to pay them for something that was mine, it was my clothes, my shoes, all my things. They wanted me to give money to allow me to take my things. And when I started stating my case and fighting back, they had no choice but to let me go. But it is that corruption in Mexico that makes it scary.

Juan: Basically, it was a very hard decision. I came back by myself. It basically was because when the president that is at the White House right now, he changed the rules and everything. He made a task of making people leave or getting deported and all that. And he started tightening all the rules and the laws. And I'm living in the state of Texas, and Texas participated a lot with that policy. And the police department was cooperating with them, meaning that if you had a traffic ticket you could get arrested and taken to immigration, to process your deportation.Juan: The decision to come back was very hard and very difficult because I was leaving my wife and my children behind. My home, my cars, and practically all my belongings, I left them behind. But I'd rather have that happening, than being arrested and maybe put in jail because I heard that they're putting people in jail and they keep you there for a long time. And I didn't want to go over that and be in jail for something like that. So I decided just to come back and bring my clothes and as much as I could. But it was a very difficult decision to come back and leave my family behind.

Juan: I was twenty-one when I left for the United States and at the moment, I'm fifty-two years old. I lived over there about twenty-eight years, so it was the majority of my life. I never thought about coming back to Mexico because I loved living over there. Just because I had my family established and everything. I purchased a house, purchased a car. A lot of times you can't even do that here in Mexico. It's very hard to purchase a house, to purchase a car. It's very, very difficult. But over there, I already accomplished that. And when I left over there, everything stayed back.

Juan: Okay, my family. In 1997, I got married to my wife and we had three children. I have one boy and two girls. And they are still living in the United States because my children are still going to school and now they are pursuing their dreams. And I didn't want to force them to come with me because I didn't know how it was going to be here in Mexico. So they stayed back there and we talk over the phone. We text and video calls and things like that, but they're still living over there and I miss them very much.

Juan: I started a real estate investing business. I was buying and selling houses. I was fixing them and remodeling them and I was selling them to people that were looking to buy a house for the first time. And I was doing quite well until I couldn't do it anymore because, since I was undocumented, I couldn't renew my driver's license. And when you don't have a license in the state of Texas, pretty much you can't do anything. You cannot travel, you cannot open a bank account, you cannot do pretty much anything. You can't go to a bank and do anything because you don't have identification. And the worst part was that in my business I needed to notarize documents, I needed to borrow money from banks to purchase the houses, and I needed a credit card to buy my materials to remodel my houses and all that stuff. And since I didn't have anything like that, I couldn't do nothing anymore, absolutely nothing. And it was a very, very hard time for like a year that I couldn't do nothing because I didn't have an identification.

Adrian: Can you tell me about your first job that you had in the United States?Juan: Well, when you get there you don't have that many choices. And basically, there are a lot of jobs that nobody wants to do. And when you get there, you get there usually with no money, usually in need of everything. So you take the first job that comes your way. And it was at a restaurant, an Italian restaurant. And I was a busboy, I was cleaning tables and helping in the kitchen, helping the waiters. It was basically at a restaurant.Adrian: Oh, good. That's the only job that you have in the United States or did you do more jobs? Do you do other kinds of work?Juan: No. At first I had jobs like that restaurant-wise, but then since I know how to drive commercial vehicles, I was able to get a job driving a vehicle and I drove a bobtail truck, delivering gasoline and diesel. And I did that for a long time. And I took many driving jobs because of the commercial license that I used to have. I used to have several jobs driving commercial vehicles. But then when I got married, my wife didn't want me to do anymore that job because it was kind of dangerous. So I stopped doing it. And I was facing the possibility of getting another job, basically driving or doing something else. I picked something else and I started my own business.

Juan: My first day in the United States? Well, it was exciting and scary at the same time because I didn't know what to expect, I didn't know what to do. And basically it was something that I didn't know what was going to happen. But for sure I was very excited to be there.Adrian: Can you tell me about how you felt when you got to the United States, what did you see different?Juan: Well, when I got to the United States and what I saw different, it was like a total, brand new world. Everything clean, everything in order, everything ... People living in a different way than I was used to. And it was very, very different on the first day. And when I got there, it took me a good while to adapt to that lifestyle, the American lifestyle

Josue: Coming back? Like of the entire process? I mean, being with ICE was horrible. And it's horrible because... So the people that have you detained, like in Tacoma, they're all American. And they never really mistreated us, not really. But whenever they turned us over in San Diego with ICE, they all got their last names right here, and every single one of them was Latino. You know, ‘cause they got their last names right there. They were the ones, you know, that had us up against the bus with our hands up with the guns pulled out.Josue: There’s a lot of them. So yeah, they're the ones that were screaming at us. They never spoke Spanish, it was always English. I remember one of the guys, ‘cause they had us walk in from the airplane to the bus with our hands up, and I think somebody put them down—I mean we're still shackled up, you know, everything. And they put them down and they all like started screaming at him, pointing the gun on him too. So that to me was like the worst of the entire thing. Just having somebody that, you know, they're all Latinos, treat you that way. I think that was the worst. And I don't know. Maybe the other part is the place that you go into after, right when you cross the border, they don't really give you any information.

Josue: Oh yeah. [Laughs]. No, yeah, it took me—actually I met my best friends right here in TeleTech. So they are the ones that are like my second family really.

Sergio: Since you've been back have you pursued any studies?Josue: No, not that either. ‘Cause I think that it's iffy, like whenever you want to use your diploma from the States, they don't just say, “Okay you did that and so you can now go on to college or whatever.” I don't think it's like that. You have to do something.Sergio: Has that been hard for you with your culinary background?Josue: I mean I wouldn't want to study that. I would actually want to study something that I can use here, like business or something, something where I can grow. But like I said, from what I've heard—I don't know too much—you do have to do something so that they can validate what you did in the States down here. But I don't know enough about it. That's it.Sergio: So that's too much for you, you don't want to go through that whole process?Josue: I would, but I think it's also pricey. Like I said, I just don't know enough about it to do it. But I know that you need money.

Josue: Yeah it was. But also I was growing up. It was five years ago. Yeah, I mean, it was hard, but I also wanted to get jobs. I wanted to decide, say if I didn't like one job, I wanted to be able to say, “I don't like this job. I want to go over there.” I couldn't do that in the States, because I haven't got my papers.

Josue: Yeah, yeah. ‘Cause my immediate family, they were the ones that I was closest to. Maybe because we were always outside of like Mexico City. ‘Cause even though me and my brother, we were born in Veracruz, but nobody's from over there, just my parents were there by that time. And so, we never really got to see my uncles, cousins, so I never got like really attached to them. It was always my family.

Sergio: So, you were detained in the ICE facility or were you not?Josue: Yes. Well I was in county first and that was in downtown _____, like right on Fifth Avenue.Sergio: How long were you in County?Josue: It was just a few days, like maybe a week, 10 days.Sergio: How did you feel there?Josue: It was okay. I was in a different area where you really are like in a fish tank ‘cause it's all glass right here and the cops are right there on like an island and they're literally just looking down at you. So it was fine. I mean it was horrible ‘cause it was county, but yeah, they didn't do anything wrong.Sergio: You didn't experience any abuse?Josue: No, no. They had us, really just watching us right there. So no, it was just the fact that nobody told me anything, they just kept on telling me to wait, that somebody would tell me what was happening. And that never happened.Sergio: So, if you were detained, you were detained by ICE. How long did ICE detain you for?Josue: Oh, I was there for like two months minimum.Sergio: Do you know where?Josue: Tacoma, Washington.Sergio: How'd they treat you there?Josue: Oh no, that was fine. Yeah, yeah. I think that was fine.Sergio: You ever have a bad experience?Josue: No. Well the thing is they are not ICE. They're a private company. A horrible part there was with ICE, whenever they actually get you to ICE. So, bad experiences, it was with ICE, not with the police and not with the other company. Yeah, it was with them.

Josue: Oh, it was really stupid [Chuckle] Because I was driving my dad's car, and I went to a friend’s in downtown Seattle. Left the car parked in a parking lot, and then I went to my friend's house, or whatever. I was coming back and I didn't have my driver's license with me—I forgot it that day. And so, somebody I guess called the cops saying that maybe I looked suspicious or something because the cops came, they got me, I didn't have my ID, the car wasn't under my name. And so they said that they were charging me with car prowling, which at the end they dropped everything because that was not the case. And yeah, that's what happened. They took me in.Sergio: So, the police detained you?Josue: Yeah, it was the cops. And so, they got me and then I spent a few days in County. Ain't nobody told me anything. Like I would ask, like “Why am I exactly here? Can I speak with somebody?” And they kept on telling me, like “Oh, you're going to get your hearing,” whatever. But I never did. A few days after that, ICE came and you know they start asking like, “When did you come in? What's your social security number?” All those questions. And then they left. A couple of days after that, they came back, but you know already with the shackles and everything for a bunch of people. And that's how they took us down to the detention center in Tacoma.Sergio: What year was this, that that happened?Josue: 13? 2013.Sergio: So, you never actually went before a judge for this case that the cop stopped you for?Josue: Never. I had a persecutor right there when I had my hearing in ICE, with a judge, cause I told her, she asked me, “Do you want to fight the case? You want to do something?” I said, “No.” And I told her I just want to sign the voluntary departure. As soon as I said that, the guy to the left, he was like, “No, like he has charges.” They wanted to deport me, which wouldn't have made a difference really for me ‘cause I'm not going back. But he said, like “He's got this, charges,” whatever. I don't know how they can call them charges when they never really charged me with anything ‘cause I never had a hearing on it. And so then I explained exactly what I said to you. I told the judge, she turned and looked at him and the guy said, “Okay, we're deferring the charges.” That's just what he said. And she said, okay, she signed it. That's it. [Chuckles].Sergio: That's wild.Josue: It was.Sergio: So, they just looked at you and they were like, “Okay, we're dropping everything?”Josue: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The persecutor just said, he used that term, “We're not dropping the charges, we're deferring the charges,” something like that. She said, “Okay,” signed it. And that's how I got the voluntary one.Sergio: So, were you informed of your rights during this process?Josue: No, I would say no. No because whenever I explained it to the judge, I told her like, “Whenever I was in county, nobody ever told me anything. I didn't know anything of whether we're charging me with. Whenever ICE came, same thing. They just took me and didn't say anything.”Sergio: Did you have a lawyer helping you through it?Josue: No, no. ‘Cause like I said, I didn't want to fight anything.Sergio: So you weren’t provided with legal assistance?Josue: No.

Sergio: Did you qualify for DACA?Josue: I don't know. I think that I could have because I did all of my high school there and college as well. But I never really looked into it. And what's funny is before I actually came to Mexico, about a year before, I called my mom and I told her that I wanted to come back. So like nine months after that, that's when I got caught. So first I had bail, and then whenever I had my meeting with a judge, like my hearing, she asked me—'cause I was like the only one in the room that they didn't need a translator—she was like, “Are you sure you don't want to fight your case?”Josue: But there were so many people there that I knew, maybe they were in my situation where they could have qualified, but they had been there for years, or you know like a year or something. I didn't think it was worth it. So I signed my voluntary departure.

Sergio: Were you ever worried about getting caught by US authorities?Josue: A little bit. But the stories that I heard, they didn't really feel like they were hitting too close to home until I started hearing about the warehouse for the newspaper. They did a raid over there. And that's the first summer I was like, “I don't know.” But we kept on going and I didn't experience a raid like that.Sergio: So, the warehouse got raided?Josue: Yeah.Sergio: And you weren't working there anymore?Josue: No. The thing is that we all worked there: me, my mom, my brother. Me, at one point, I was working with my mom on one route and my dad was doing another one. At some point, we all had one, and it had to be at the point when only my dad was working there ‘cause I remember he was the one to tell me about that. And so, I know that for some time, he would be the one to go and bring the newspapers to us. And you know, just take them up.

Josue: Yes. All of them, except for my mom. She was there for about half the time, for about five years. And then she came back here ‘cause she didn't like working over there. You know the jobs that you get over there. Like I said, I didn't feel like we were in a bad position where we needed to go through everything that we went through. So my mom came back.Sergio: So, what happened to the family after she left?Josue: Oh, my parents split. Well, I think they were already splitting, and you know, whenever she said, “I'm going back with my little sister.” Yeah, that was like, “Okay, yeah, they're splitting.”Sergio: They're splitting?Josue: Yeah, yeah, yeah.Sergio: And how did that impact you growing up there?Josue: Honestly, not really. Because when she came back, I kind of already knew that it was going to happen, and I wasn't that young to already not really understand what was happening. So, my mom told me she wasn't happy over there and I wanted her to be happy, you know?

Sergio: Did you have to pay for the school or how was the financial aid situation?Josue: Oh no, I had to pay, I used to work. I would work delivering newspapers at night ____yeah, so that's what I did. So I would get home and then run to school. I mean the very first quarter my dad paid for that, but then the rest I did.Sergio: What other kinds of jobs did you have there?Josue: I didn't have many ‘cause that one, I had it for a couple of years. But then for almost four years I worked for this company called ____. But it was for delivering medicine to independent pharmacies. So every day I would go do my route and it was just delivering those little boxes of medicine in them for about four years.Sergio: Four years. So you worked total, how many years being in the US, how many years did you work?

Josue: I was in college, _____ for about a year and a half.Sergio: So, college. What did you study in college?Josue: Culinary arts.Sergio: Culinary arts. That's pretty cool.Josue: Yeah, I mean I like cooking, but not working in a restaurant.

Josue: No, myself. I got made fun of in PE class. We were in Seattle, so not a lot of non-English, well, Spanish speaking people. But yeah, I got made fun of my English in PE. ‘Cause I remember I was wearing like an Old Navy shirt with an American flag right here. And there was a guy in my PE class, which were the classes that were not ESL, so it was mostly white people. And so, I remember him saying something to the effect of, “How were you even wearing that when you can't even speak the language?”Josue: And so, I actually started to, what I would do is that I would get music. I listened to a lot of music with a Spanish-English dictionary and me sitting in my living room with that, a lot. And I was the first one in my family to speak it. I don't even think a year went by before I remember speaking where I felt comfortable I guess.

Sergio: Why did you migrate to the US?Josue: I mean I was like 14. So, my dad actually left first—he was there for about a year, a year and a half—and they took my mom, me, brother and sister all of us at once, about a year and a half after that.Sergio: Did your dad migrate for economic reasons for the family or violence or discrimination?Josue: I think that it was money, yeah. But I don’t think that—I think money may have been like 50% of it. I think that he was running to start anew from something, I don't know, ‘cause we were not in a bad situation for him taking us over there.

Diana: Like for example here, this social, the status is way more marked. Here you know for sure that the people that make more money, they don't treat everybody the same. Also, in the jobs that happens a lot too. A lot of people have more preferences and there's a lot of that kind of things. Over there I never experienced that. Over there, in my experience, if all the time I did a good job, they let me know I was doing a good job, and they put me up in another position stuff like that, I could grow up in the – it wasn't that hard, but here is, since let's say if there is a position that you want, but then there's somebody else that wants it and he's friends with the manager or something, he's going to get it first, that kind of things.

Diana: Oh, about the US. I like the rules. I like the rules. Because you know how over there you, let's say when you're driving, when I started driving, you know how over there you have to respect the people that are walking and then you follow rules a lot more. Here nobody cares. If you’re walking, the cars just, they don't care about you, and here you also see that the traffic's worse always because let's say if the lights are not working, it's not like over there that you know that the person on the right goes first. You stop, and you know it's like that. Everybody knows that, so you do it. And then here is like no, everybody wants to go first. It causes chaos and then a lot of people, mostly that is very insecure. The first time we got robbed, we were taking my son to school, and they stopped us and they had guns and they took everything. They even took his backpack and it’s like, why do you need his backpack?

Diana: Because I did not ... we got so adapted to the living over there, is because it was different because I see over there, there's people that are there for a lot of years and they don't learn to speak English. A lot of people that go over there from Mexico, they want everything to adapt to them. They want stuff to be in Spanish, and I mean it's okay, but I think that at some point, if you are living over there, you have to adapt, to the living over there. And also, it's better you start meeting more people, you have more opportunities, they treat you different.

Diana: It was in the movie theaters, yeah. That was actually my first job of all.Anita: Really?Diana: Yeah, maybe because I was 19, so it was fun, it was really fun.Anita: Was it hard to find all these jobs without papers?Diana: It was because let's say my mom's family and then they mostly work at restaurants and stuff like that. But I don't really like restaurants stuff. Working at a restaurant, I don't like it that much.Anita: Why?Diana: I don't know. I'm not that friendly with people. Then I found the movie theaters and then they – is because you know how you don't say that you don't have papers, so they probably thought since I was young I was just like a teenager and then they didn't really ask me are you papers real or anything. I had fake papers.Anita: And you had fake papers of all these different jobs?Diana: Yes.Anita: And nobody ever asked you anything?Diana: No. I'm pretty sure they assume because you know there's a way to know because the social security numbers that they give you, if you know about it, they're not actual. They might be from people that are from the 50s or stuff like that. So there's a … but they don't really – I'm pretty sure a lot of them knew, but they don't really ask, they probably be like, okay don't know them.

Diana: Yeah. So then I'm here living with my dad now and then my dad work all day. My older sister was living in the house with my dad too, but she worked all day too and stuff like that. And then here I tried to go back to school, but because they needed me to certificate the school that I was over there, and I couldn't because my mom didn't get prepared at all she just sent me back. They wanted me to go back again and start all from where I left here. And at that moment I was like, no. So then I started just being on my house and then I met my husband and then I got pregnant.

Diana: And then that's when ... well, first she noticed because I start cutting school a lot, so then you know how they contact the parents and stuff. So, she had to go out of her work to go and take me to school and stuff like that so – but what did make her just say “no, no, no, I don't want you-“ is because I started fighting a lot more. And then there was one time that we were – she had then, because of I caught school, she would go pick me up now. I had to be at school. Then one time she pick me up and then we got on the bus. I usually didn't get on the first bus because it was the one that got food and stuff like that, but she wanted to get on that one.

Diana: Because I could be how I wanted, like they wouldn't judge me. And also, before I felt I was like more weak, I was so scared of a lot of things and everything, and that also kind of helped me be– because also when I got there, because I did not speak English, I got bullied a lot. So, starting you know hanging out with the people that were in gangs and stuff like that, that starts stopping. I learned to make them stop to bully me. So then I started liking the fact that I could let, you know be bullied.

Diana: It's because also, I always grew up with a little bit of conflict with my mom because she had a lot of rules that even from when I was young, I didn't agree with them. [chuckles] I mean also I know now that she had those kind of thinkings and stuff because of the way she grew up and all the problems she had so ... but at that moment, you don't think about any of that, is just mainly you so [chuckles].

Diana: It was fun because I felt that I could be more me. Also, that depends because of the whole situation with my family. In my family, my dad was an alcoholic and stuff like that. so we were more quiet and stuff like that. And my brothers and sisters, they had their own problems too. I'm the youngest, that's why it was me the only one that went over there with my mom.

Diana: Well, when I started hanging out with ... I started getting to the gangs and stuff over there so ... and I would cut school, and then I would get into fights stuff like that.Anita: So tell me about this. We're trying to understand this, what is so exciting about gangs?Diana: I believe in my situation, you know I cannot speak for everybody, but in my situation it was most likely the losing of interest in school because when I was here in Mexico, I was one of the ones with the good grades and I had some other set of goals here. So then when I was over there, everything changed. I got sent back and then what they were teaching was like, for me it was way below grade. So then I started hanging out with bad people and then my mom was working all the time, so I had a lot of alone time.

Jeimmy: Yeah. My dad, he still has that mentality of wanting to go back. And it's because when he left Mexico, he may have a -- una profesion. [a profession] He got over there and, like I told you, he was pitching peaches, cherries. Then he was working at a fabric. But then, one day, he saw a sign that said, "We need welders." And he's like, "Oh, necesitan soldadores, [the need welders] but I don't know how to weld. But I'm going to go anyway."Jeimmy: So, he found the supervisor and he's like, "Oh, you're Mexican, huh?" He's like, “Yeah.” "Oh, okay. Well then." And my dad is like, “[Nervous noise].’ It was horrible, but he's like, "Okay, I'm going to show you how to weld." So my dad started learning how to be a welder and became an ingeniero industrial. [industrial engineer] So, he knows a lot of things that is not very common here in Mexico. He knows how to do it.

Jeimmy: At the beginning? I was super happy because I was like, "Oh yes, I will see my abuelita." [grandmother] Because in the States, I would always adopt grandmas. For example, we used to live in this black neighborhood. So, there was this black lady who I always would call her “Abuelita.” And she was like, "mi abuelita negra." It was pretty cool. But after so many years of not actually seeing your grandma, it's like the best.

Jeimmy: American people are more like anti-violence, I guess. Like if your kid comes to you and they tell you that they're being bullied, you would go directly to the principal and you would speak with the principal, right? So it's like, "Okay, my kid's being bullied in your school, what are you going to do about it?" And the director would try to find a solution or what so on. And here in Mexico, if you go and tell, "les van haciendo burla a tu hijo” [they are teasing/picking on your son] he would be like, "Okay, well, I can't do anything about it. I can’t be just behind your kid all day." So what happened here in Mexico would be like, “mira mi amor si te pega, [listen my love if they hit you] you better whoop their butt. Because if not, coming home, I'm going to whoop your butt.” So that would be like the Mexican part. So yeah, I guess I would get like on both sides.

Jeimmy: I like electronic music. For example, I like Adela, I like Amy Winehouse. I love a lot of, well like Charlie Puth, I don't know. I like that type of music. But I also like not necessarily Mexican, but Latina. For example, I like Calle Trece. Calle Trece I think is like Puerto Rican or something like that. I love Calle Trece. What I don't like that's Mexican, and people criticize me for that, is I don't like Banda. I don't like Nortenas, I don't like soccer, for example. [Interview laughs].

Tim: So, do you see yourself as more American or more Mexican?Jeimmy: I would say both. [Chuckles]. That was a tough one. Yeah. Both. Because I mean, I have Mexican blood. You can see me physically and I look Mexican. But my taste in music isn't that Mexican. My ideal isn't as the same as a Mexican mind. And well, yeah, I mean you can say I'm like an Oreo. [Laughs].

Jeimmy: I think that's something I really miss a lot, because here, you could say, "Oh my God, if something happens to me and they call the cops, they are going to be here like an hour later, and they're not even going to be here prepared. They're just going to like, nada mas es presencia [they’re just present] because they're not even prepared for it." So I guess that's something that I missed too.Tim: So, did you trust the police in the United States?Jeimmy: Yeah. I always grew up believing that police were good men. Police are different from ICE. So, La Migra was different from a regular cop. So I would always trust cops.Tim: And here you don't trust?Jeimmy: No, no. No, aqui no. [no, no, here no.] At least I haven't seen a cop do a good deed. You usually see them like trying to stop people just to check them and see if they have anything on them.

Tim: Are there any like specific American foods that you miss?Jeimmy: That I miss? Not really. A couple years back, I used to miss like cranberry sauce, I used to miss gravy, I used to miss candies, like salt water taffy, like a whole bunch of candies that here in Mexico don't exist. But then the years pass by and you stop, I don't know, ya no se te antoja, [you don’t crave it] You're like, "Okay, it's fine."Tim: Okay. So besides the food, is there anything that you miss a lot about the United States?Jeimmy: I miss the cleanness. It's true that it's greener on the other side. Everybody can notice that. I miss how you could go to the park and everything was like, the grass was all green. You would see like—well at least where I used to live, there was a small pond where you can go throw bread at ducks. I miss the security that you feel when you call 911 and in five minutes, the cops are there.

Tim: Besides school when you came back, was it hard to like reintegrate yourself in Mexican culture after living in the US first for long?Jeimmy: Yes. I think it took me like about two years to integrate into myself. Because specifically in high school, I started... there's Spanish and there's Chilango. So, Chilango is way different than Spanish. They're like, "y tienes carnales?” " And I'm like, "carnales, what's that?" "si tienes hermanos?” And I'm like, "Oh yeah, I have two brothers." Oh, okay. And they would use those words, no?Jeimmy: So, I started like learning them. “Oh yeah. carnal significa [carnal means] brother.” What other words did they use? They would use expressions like, “ay ese hombre es un Don Juan,” [that man is a Don Juan] and I'm like, "Who's Don Juan?" And they're like, "Oh no. It just means that he's a player," and words like that. So I was like, "Oh, okay. This is like pretty weird, but I like it. It's cool."Jeimmy: So when I was in high school, this kid, he was like the most—I don't know, he was very hyperactive, but he was cool. He's like, "Hey Jeimmy," because everybody was like in break, "Hey Jeimmy." I'm like, “que?” He's like, "ya alcanzas a tocar el timbre," [did you manage to ring the doorbell] and I'm like, "What do you mean?" He's like, "Yeah, Jeimmy, ya alcanzas a tocar el timbre?" and everybody's laughing, and I'm like, “I don't know what you're talking about."Jeimmy: "Si Jeimmy si ya tocas el timbre, el timbre de tu casa?." [have you rung the doorbell of your house] And I'm like, "mi casa no tiene timbre.” [my house doesn’t have a doorbell] So everybody just starts laughing at me, and I'm like, "Oh my God, what did I say?" So later on, I tell my friend, I'm like, "What did he mean?" And she's laughing at me and she can't stop laughing at me. And then she's like, "Okay, he basically asked you if you've already had sex. But your response was, my house doesn't have a doorbell. So, it's pretty funny." And I was like, “Oh, okay.”Jeimmy: So yeah, you start learning all these expressions, all these some double centered words. And I mean it took me a while to learn it.

Tim: Were people mean to you because you had spent time in the US?Jeimmy: Yes, but I mean, okay. The first thing I noticed in Mexican school is that they don't even have toilet paper in the bathrooms. So it's like, "Okay. Did somebody forget to put toilet paper?" "No, you have to bring your own." I'm like, "Okay, that's so weird." And then it's like, everybody would think, I guess it's like they make themselves feel less because they think that you think that you’re better than them just because you know English and you were in the States and so on.Jeimmy: So they would be like, "ay la gringa se cree mucho porque viene de los Estados Unidos y habla inglés.” [the gringa is full of herself because she’s come from the United States and speaks English] It's like, "No bro, I'm nothing like that." So yeah, that was like ignorant children. But then you'll see that the teachers are just as ignorant because they're like, “Ay Jeimmy, lee la página tal" [Ay Jeimmy, read this page] I can't read. I don't know. I can barely speak Spanish. You want me to read it?Jeimmy: So I would be like, "el carro” [the car] and everybody would start laughing because I can't roll my R's. It's like, a ver di carro, di carro, di ferrocarril," [let’s see, say car, say car, say train] (In American accent) and I can't roll my R's. So, they'll make fun of my accent. And yeah, the teacher was horrible, and the students were also. In the four months that I was just in middle school, I saw how a teacher grabbed his seatbelt and whooped the student [Chuckles]. So, I was like, "Oh my God, this would not happen in the States." So it's really, really different.

Jeimmy: I got to seventh grade, then when I was 14, my parents decided to come back to Mexico. So, here, I had to go back to middle school for like four months and then to high school again.Tim: You guys came back voluntarily?

Jeimmy: No. It was really hard for me. I would get mad because I didn't want to go to school. I didn't understand what the teacher said to me. I didn't like going to school because I didn't understand anything. Then they started giving me like, "Okay, you are going to be half your time here and half your time in a Spanish class." So that kind of helped me understand. And then when I was like in second grade, then they're like, "Okay, you're ready to be in a full English class." Yeah.

Jeimmy: Honestly, I don't remember. I remember that every three, four months, five months, I was always the new girl. I would be changed from school super often. So I've been to a whole bunch of schools. The only school I remember that I went three years straight was Shiloh Park Elementary School. I went there three years straight, which was from third to sixth grade. But then when I was going to go middle school, we ended up changing to another city.

Jeimmy: My parents were afraid. They would stay at a specific job. Usually, at first, they started off working in like el campo, which is like land fields. So it was like picking up apples and peaches, cherries. But Immigration would be there often. So you would just see like people scream, "la migra." And everybody would like run.Jeimmy: So, they started looking for other things that weren't as dangerous as that. So we moved to a different state where mostly the jobs there were like fabricas.[factories] They stayed there, but then you would notice that la migra también llegaba a las fábricas, [immigration authorities also went to factories] So, they started migrating very often. Basically, just keeping a down low on that and not trying to like be caught by La Migra.

Jose: Actually, after I got kicked out, I was still living with my dad. But I had a lot of issues with my dad. We got into a lot of arguments. So after I got kicked out of school, he sort of kicked me out of the house and I ended up living with a buddy and I started working with him. Not with him, but we started working together and that's when I started making money. That's when my mom came back to _____, and I was like, “Hey look. I'm making enough money to help you out with bills and stuff. I feel like this might be the best situation for right now.” And whether she liked it or not, she agreed with me and the following year, I came back and I dropped out officially. And yeah. I started working.

Jose: No, I just feel that more people need to be more aware of the reasons people are in the States. A lot of people think they're just there to take their jobs, but it's not. People just want a better life. People just want to be part of something. I feel the States is probably one of the best countries in the world and it will be for the future because it's a culmination of so many countries and so many cultures. You take every other culture away, what's there really in the States? Everybody in the States was an immigrant at some point and people forget that. A lot of citizens that are racist towards immigrants forget that their grandparents at some point immigrated from another country for the same reasons they did. I just want people to remember that America is a country of immigrants.

Jose: Everything. The culture. I really like how there's a bunch of different cultures. Whether or not everybody mingles together, there's so many cultures for me to learn and see. Food. The freedom. The fact that you don't really have to worry about the things you have to worry about here. Here, you can't even be walking at night. You have to be looking around the corner because you never know. There's probably like a 50% chance if you're walking out a night, you're probably going to get robbed. And in the States, it wasn't ever like that. I remember being 14, 15 walking home from a buddy's house at 10 and nothing you know? The security. I felt secure. And my friends, honestly. Also, the currency. Currency was like a really... How do I say this? It's pretty easy for people to make money in the States, you know. And you don't really need to have a really good job to supply enough for your house. And even people in low income still have enough to survive. And here in Mexico, you got to really hustle really hard to even survive. So that was the thing.

Jose: No, actually, I had a verbal offense with an officer, which I fought, and I cleaned. It was like a misdemeanor. But other than that, I was also arrested once prior to that for no license, but at that time immigration laws weren't that strict. I was in county jail for like maybe two hours. They just fingerprinted me. And they were like, "Oh, they paid your bail. You're good." I was out. I just went to court, paid my fine, and that was it. That was all I ever heard of that. Actually, when I got arrested that second time, when I got deported, I didn't even worry at all until I was at immigration. I mean, I got arrested and everything. I didn't worry about it. Even though at the time I was with my little sister when I got arrested, I called my sister to tell her to come pick up the kid. My brother-in-law came to pick up the car. They took the car and everything. And we're fine. They're like, "Oh, we'll just see you at the county jail. It'll be fine." But we were dead wrong.

Jose: I was driving. It was like a Sunday, no a Saturday. I was with my sister and a buddy and his kids. We had gone to McDonald's and I was driving back home and I was going like five miles over the speed limit and I was pulled over for speeding. Because I didn't have a license, I was taken to county jail. At county jail, immigration got ahold on me and that's when I went to the immigration detention center and that's where I was given my choice of either fighting my case or just leaving voluntarily. And I just thought it was the best idea to leave voluntarily and try to come back legally. There was a couple of options I could've taken. I could've fought my case, but in most cases, it was like a five percent chance of winning. It really depended on the judge. I didn't think I was going to win. Most of the reason people win is because they have property, have kids. They have a reason to be there. I didn't have kids. Even though I was a main supplier at the house, main supporter, it didn't matter to the judge's eye. So he gave me the voluntary leave and I took it. Thought it was my best option.

Jose: Different stuff. I started working with this couple that did house evictions. They maintained houses for banks, bank-owned houses. So we trimmed the grass, cleaned out the property, whatever. And if a house was evicted, like a month ago, we had to go and take out everything the house had in it, take it out to the dump. Just maintain the houses until they were sold by the bank. Sometimes we did a little bit of touch-ups, paint and stuff like that. After that job, I started getting into paint. I started painting for maybe a year. And paint was really bad hours and really low pay so I started looking for other stuff. Eventually, I did tile. I did flooring.Jose: And eventually I started working in framing, where is where I got the most money. I think I started with like 80 bucks, but I was only throwing trash. I was only picking up scraps, throwing trash, and it was a pretty easy job for like 80 bucks. But then I started getting to know the job and they started teaching me stuff and I started making like 120, 140 in a day. So, then I started liking it. I started putting more effort into learning and get a higher position in the job. And I started working until I was a master and I was the one... Actually, before I came, I was a group manager and since I spoke good English, I was able to talk with the builders and since I knew the work and stuff, I started making pretty good money. My employer at the moment his English wasn't that good, so I put him onto a lot of people. I helped him with work and with managing his business. Yeah, that's where I started making like 20, 20 plus. I was also getting bonuses. After a house was done, I would get a little bonus for helping out extra. Yeah, I started making really good money there. That's when we really came up. We used to live in really cheap apartments until we moved up and started living really good. But then this happened.

ose: Yeah. And my older sister, she's got a whole family now. She lives with her husband. She's got two kids. She's doing her own thing, but I feel like eventually my mom's going to have to move in with them.Anne: And they're in ____ too?Jose: Yeah.Anne: Does she have DACA? Your sister?Jose: Yeah. She finished high school and now that she's got her DREAMers, whatever—Anne: DACA.Jose: Yeah. And she's actually working on her residency because her husband's also a citizen so she's getting her stuff together. She's got two kids. So I mean, she's just getting her paperwork done.

Jose: Yeah. Actually, my brother's in jail right now. Yeah, I feel like he was the one that was traumatized the most. After he was eight, nine, ten years old, he was the one that acted out the most. I mean, I'm not sure if it was to do what I do, to do what the older brother does, or just because he was doing it by himself. Like I said, as I grew up, I started working. I started getting my head straight. I was being mentored by older people. I was working with older people and they were telling me the things I should be doing instead of splitting into the wrong way. And I was mentored by a lot of people. People that I still keep in touch with now. Coworkers and stuff.Jose: So while my brother was going through his stuff, I tried to mentor him a lot, but it was always... It went in one ear and it came out the other. I had struggled myself so I understood where he was coming from. And I felt like I grew up best by learning from my own mistakes and being told what could happen and then making that mistake and being like I was warned about this. I warned my brother about everything. I would just... Since that was the mindset I grew up in, I couldn't really help what he was doing, but I was going to tell him what could happen down the line. And eventually, it did. He was getting locked up. He was like 16, 17 being brought home by the police for doing whatever now.

Jose: My mom did cleaning most of her life. She still does cleaning. Housecleaning. She actually maintains a single property now. She's like a house sitter, I guess. She makes enough money there to support herself, but at the time, I was making enough money to pay for rent and she was just helping out with bills. The money she was making, she was able to pay her car note and paid my little sister's school stuff or whatever. So I was mainly in charge of paying rent and bills and stuff like that. And now she’s having a tough time because I'm over here, but there's no way I'm going back with the way the laws are, theimmigration laws are right now. I actually want to wait it out after a new presidency. See what happens.

Jose: Yeah. My sister also acted out. I feel like more than anything, my younger brother was the one that was traumatized the most. I was like 13 and he was like eight, nine years old when my parents were splitting up and it was a super drastic change. After they split up, I actually moved to Cali for a while. As soon as my parents split up, my mom knew that she wouldn't be able to sustain us so she moved out to Cali. We lived with her uncle for a while. Yeah, we lived there in Cali for a year. Eventually, I moved out back to ___ with my dad.

Jose: Yeah, I did after a while. After the whole English thing. I was about two years in and I was able to speak English not perfectly, but well enough for me to understand what the teachers were telling me and all that. During middle school, I was actually in advanced classes. The whole advanced classes thing was when my parents were splitting up and I started acting out and getting into trouble and stuff. And that's what led me into high school. Once I got into high school, I was kicked out of all my advanced classes because I was acting out in my classes before that. Eventually, through that whole year, it was a big downfall for me. As my parents were splitting up, I was acting rebellious, trying to get attention.

Jose: Yeah, the language was a very difficult thing, but I knew I had to get my act together and learn English as quick as possible. There's a bunch of classes in the States that teach foreign kids to learn English. Whether you're from any Latin American country, Asia, or whatever. I remember being an ESL and I remember being surrounded by Hispanics, Asians, and there was like a Russian kid.

Jose: Yeah. Actually, I don't remember it being as difficult as people say it is now. But back then I remember we were driving just on the street. We could see the border and then you know the river? The bridge? We got out maybe like a couple of miles before that, went into the bushes. We waited until nighttime. At nighttime, we went in inflatable rafts. I was on somebody's back and they crossed us over one by one. Once everybody crossed over, we ran for a couple of minutes to a Walmart. I remember going inside the Walmart ‘cause my sister had lost her shoe in the whole running and they had bought her a shoe. After the Walmart, we were taken to a hotel safe house and we were actually ditched at the safe house. My dad had to hire, or pay, for another coyote to go pick us up in Texas—we got stranded in Texas. Yeah, another whole different coyote had to come and pick us up. And that coyote delivered us from Texas to ____, where I've been living for like 16 years.

Jose: It was kind of a drastic change when I was incarcerated for a mere traffic violation and deported—not deported, I got voluntary leave, actually. The only thing I knew is that I didn't want to be locked up like an animal for something so small. I'd rather be back in my city as a free man and try to earn my right to go back to the States legally and just live over there. It wasn't a good thing or a good feeling to be driving around, just being anywhere, having a fearing of being detained for any minority. I definitely want to go back. It's definitely a beautiful country and I just think the circumstances have been very difficult, but I definitely want to go back.

Joana: No, I don't think there is. I think I've said enough. I don't think anyone should go through that. It's pain, it's painful. You don't know how many nights I've fallen asleep crying just thinking about everything that someone could say to you or things that they have said to me. You don't know how much your words can hurt a person. How much just a simple word could end their life. A lot of people have committed suicide because of that, because they couldn't bear with everything that's going on. A lot of people have lost their lives. I don't think it's fair. No one should have to be afraid of going outside or going to work. You're just going to work. You're not doing anything bad. You're not going against the law. I mean, you're working. You're trying. As a student, you try every day. Other kids do bully you if they find out that you're not a U.S. citizen. They'll call you names. They'll pick on you. Some have been kicked, punched, etc. That's not what a kid should go through, especially not if you're really young. A lot of five-year-olds go through that. Imagine a kid going through that. An innocent child that shouldn't be put through that.

oana: Maybe, because a lot people think of investing in the United States, so once they leave, they're going to invest in Mexico. I think a lot of investments.Anita: As a person, what do you bring?Joana: Your freedom, you gain your freedom to be honest. You're not afraid here. You're not afraid of anyone coming up to you and saying, "Oh, you're a wetback. Oh, you don't belong here." Because this is your country. I think, as a person, you gain calmness. You don't have to be afraid anymore, but then again, you kind of don't want to be in Mexico because of all the corruption.Anita: Do you think you could help change that corruption in Mexico because of your experience growing up in the States?Joana: I think if we all join forces, we could change everything. It's only if you put your mind to it. You can change a lot of things. It's not going to take a day, but eventually it will happen. If all of us join together and work together, we can change a lot of things in Mexico.Anita: Do you think the deported migrants, if you all join together you can change something?Joana: Definitely. There's a lot of people here that got deported. A lot. Day after day it's the same thing. Pretty much the same reasons. Either they got stopped at work, a raid, you name it, but it's pretty much the same reasons that we come back.

Anita: Something that we're thinking about and we want to write about is what the U.S. loses by deporting people and what Mexico actually gains by receiving people like you. Let me ask you that. What does the U.S. lose by deporting people like Joana?Joana: Well, they lose mainly trust because you don't trust anyone. You're always afraid. We live in fear. You don't trust anyone. What they lose is workers. We pay taxes. They lose, maybe, ties to certain things in Mexico because they do have to export, import. If this keeps going on, at the end of the day, they're going to stop because Donald Trump doesn't apparently want us in the United States, so why does Mexico have to give them anything that's Mexican? I mean, Mexico is a country where they do have a lot of oil, they have coffee, what don't they have? I mean, we have a lot of tourists that come to Mexico. Trump has towers here.

Anita: Did you ever want to be part of the streets or a gang?Joana: I didn't want to.Anita: Why not?Joana: I saw a lot of things that could happen to you. You could get raped by all of them. Nobody wants to go through that, or nobody wants to get beat up to join a gang. Why even go through the struggle? I don't find it logical to be honest. I mean, I don't want to go through suffering to be in a gang to make other people suffer. I really don't get it. I mean, you could work to get money. Why do you have to rob someone? Why do you have to beat someone up? Why do you have to stab them and shoot them?

Joana: I want to have a career. Now that I can, that I actually have the opportunity. Because in the United States, it was just like, "Why do I even try? Why do I even bother? I mean, at the end of the day, I'm not going to actually be what I want." The thing is, the education, it's really high in the United States; it's way better than here in Mexico. Here in Mexico it's just like, "Oh, well, you've got to learn this. You've got to learn that." I mean, I feel like I would have a lot of trouble here because I mainly will understand more in English than Spanish. So, if they're talking about laws or they're talking about this or that, I kind of get a lot confused. Not a little bit, a lot. It's like, "Oh my God.” I don't even understand what they're saying. I don't get a lot of professional terms. I don't understand them at all. My co-workers, if I don't understand something in Spanish, they'll be like, "Oh, it's this." It's like, "Oh, okay, okay. I get it now."

nita: Do you feel American or Mexican?Joana: More American because I grew up in America.Anita: What does it mean, being American?Joana: There's a lot... Being American, to me, it means you can do, you can be free. You can live your life like you want to. That doesn't mean you're going to break the laws. That doesn't mean you're going to commit an offense, but it means that you can actually live freely and without the worry that you're going to get deported anytime. I don't think that's living because you're always afraid. You're always afraid of anyone and everyone. You never know when that person's going to stab you in the back and call I.C.E. on you. That's what everyone's afraid of. Everyone doesn't want to say that they're undocumented. No one wants to admit it because everyone's scared. You don't get the same rights.Anita: When you say you feel more American than Mexican, what does that mean to you to feel it? I mean, I know that you're not an American citizen. What does it feel culturally or whatever way? In what way do you feel American?Joana: I guess in every way. There's a lot more connection to me with an American citizen than there is with a Mexican citizen. The cultures, they're so different. I mean, pizza isn't really even pizza here to be honest. A hamburger isn't a hamburger. It's an American dish. In Mexico they have other foods. They have other cultures. They have a variety of things. Being American, to me, it feels like I can go travel. I don't even know how to explain it. I just don't know how to put it. I guess, it means to me, it feels like... I really, I don't have the words right now. I guess it would feel... I don't, I can't find the words.

Joana: Here, for example, if someone rapes you and you go to a police officer, sometimes they really won't help you. There's a lot of corruption that's mainly everywhere, from the president down. Everyone. It's pretty weird because the cartels, they're actually the ones that actually help their states out. They actually offer jobs and the president doesn't. It's like, why? But, it's just the way it is. You're actually scared to actually go up to a police officer because you know that if you get stopped, they're not going to read you the laws. They're going to ask you for money. You're not going to see a U.S. officer do that, ever. They're going to arrest you on the spot. Here, they don't do that. That's how Mexico is.

Anita: Were you in detention?Joana: Yes.Anita: For how long?Joana: For about a month, and I got out pretty quickly because I had my passport with me.Anita: You just happened to have your passport with you?Joana: No, that was the only I.D. I had.Anita: You were carrying it with you?Joana: Yes. I didn't have any American I.D.s. I mean, we can't get them, so that was the only I.D. I had—my passport. That's how they got my nationality and everything.Anita: Were there a lot of other women in detention?Joana: Yes, but not a lot. There were mainly men, mainly. Actually, I had already gotten stopped, but I was a minor and they hadn't taken any information on me because I got stopped going to work. It was really early, and we, the other guys that were with me, were about to leave the apartment complexes where we used to live. All of a sudden, we just got stopped by two I.C.E. officers. They never identified themselves. They didn't say why we got stopped. They pretty much didn't give out any information at all. They just went in and I.D.-ed them.

Joana: I got arrested in _____. I moved to ______when I was about seventeen. I stayed about a year and that's when I.C.E. took me in.Anita: For what?Joana: It was, I think, an illegal turn, a U-turn. I was driving without a license because we can't get a license, but yet again, we do have to get to work. I mean, how are you going to expect anyone to get to work if they don't have transportation? You have to drive. It's probably the main thing that, why a lot of people get deported. That and raids.Anita: Is this the first time you were stopped just for making an illegal turn?Joana: Yes.Anita: That's the first thing you did?Joana: Yes. Well I had tickets, but I had never gotten arrested. I pretty much always paid my tickets.Anita: Then what happened?Joana: And then, well, I went into custody. They tried to get me out, but they couldn't. I.C.E. took me in. That's how I got back to Mexico.

Joana: She came to Mexico and she came to pick me up, and I pretty much traveled with her except when I was going to across the border.Anita: Except when you were crossing the border?Joana: Yes.I was four at that time.Anita: Was it hard to leave?Joana: Yes, because basically I didn't know her at all. I grew up with my grandma. That was my mother figure. So, I didn't really know her at all. And when I first met her, I didn't even talk to her. I didn't have the confidence. I didn't, well, like I said, it was like a new person to me that I didn't know anything about. I hadn't talked to her on the phone ever, because supposedly when she called, my grandma would say that I was asleep or I was playing outside or anything else, but that I wasn't there.Anita: Why?Joana: That was because I stayed with my grandma from my dad's side.Anita: Wow.Joana: My dad never called either. He never supported me economically. Yeah, they actually did have a fight over me, a legal fight, because my grandma didn't want to let me go, but she was my mother. So, under the law, I was supposed to be with her. Not with my grandma. Basically, I had to leave with her, because they couldn't do anything to hold me back.

Anita: What jobs did you work in the States?Joana: Oh, in the States? I worked pretty much construction jobs. Framing, roofing, vinyl, painting. I worked in lawns. I've worked pretty much construction jobs, yards.Anita: How many women were doing that?Joana: Not a lot. My mom does cleaning, that's her job and she loves it. I love cleaning, too.Anita: Houses?Joana: Yes. Houses, apartments, she works inside and out. She's pretty great.

Anita: You were angry?Joana: Yes. At the laws. They say it's a free country, but it's not free for us. We got to work every day. You wake up at 6:00 A.M., you get home at 8:00, and it's still the same thing. Every day. No one sees that. No one. No one pays attention to what we go through. What we struggle. Some Hispanics really can't afford a lot of things, and no one tries to help them out. And when they try like right now…. I mean, Donald Trump really took a lot of things away. A lot of advantages, a lot of help, gone. We can't get them back. That's it.Anita: We're going to fight. You have some Americans here on your side.Joana: Thank you. It really does mean a lot. It seems like a small help, but it's a lot because no one has ever came up to me and asked, "How are you doing? How do think that's going to affect you? What do you think's going to happen?" No one asks. They're just like, "Oh, well, you don't belong here. You're not from here. You shouldn't even be here." That's how they treat us, and that's reality. You can't say anything back to them because at the end of the day it's kind of true, but it shouldn't be that way. They say we have equal rights. I don't see it. [Chuckle]. I really don't. We're not equal to them. We're not equal, and we work a lot harder. We really try our best. We try to follow everything step by step at the foot of everything. That doesn't help us. Some actually do become American citizens, and every time you see a case like that, it's like, "Wow, congratulations. You deserve it." Because who doesn't want to? Who doesn't want to be treated like an American citizen? We're not treated that way. We always get discriminated by something, and that's not fair. I don't think anyone, from any country, from anywhere in the world should ever get treated that way. I just don't believe it.

Joana: I dropped out because I had personal issues with my mom and, well, in my mind, I didn't think there was enough. I mean, even if I finished high school, I wasn't going to be able to keep on studying what I wanted to study. I had good grades in school. I mean, at the end of the day, what does it really mean? If it's not worth anything. I mean, you can do your best. You can at the top of your class and it still doesn't mean anything.Anita: Were you at the top of your class?Joana: One of them. In certain classes, yes, I was the best. In math class, in other classes [Chuckle], but in others I was like the second.Anita: So, you were a really good student?Joana: Yes. I always tried my best. Even if I missed a day, I was already caught up. I always tried. My mom was really proud of me. I remember, she kept all my diplomas.

Anita: How did you cross the second time?Joana: Basically, with fake documents. That was how because my mom didn't want me to go through the normal way, I guess, of crossing the border. She didn't want me to go through that because when I was five, she kind of knew that my brain was going to block it and I wasn't going to be able to remember, but when I was fourteen, there's no way for me to not remember that. So, she tried to get the best thing that she could. She paid a lot of money for it.Anita: You got somebody's U.S. papers and you crossed by bus?Joana: Yes. That's exactly how.Anita: There was no trouble?Joana: No. There wasn't.

Joana: I wanted to be a veterinarian. That was my dream. Or a teacher. I love kids. I love to teach. I love to help everyone. If I see someone struggling, I want to help them, and I can't. I felt like I could never do that. It's really hard seeing how some people don't even value that. A lot of American citizens don't look at it that way. They really don't care. They're like, "Oh, well, you're not from here. So, we can't do anything." That's just it. That's the reality for a lot, a lot, a lot of people.

Anita: Did you know that you were undocumented?Joana: When I was small, no. Then when I got older, in my teenage years, I did have the knowledge, but I was afraid and embarrassed for anyone to find out. Especially in school [Chuckle]. But I didn't know that education wise, they don't have a problem with it.Anita: Why were you embarrassed about being undocumented?Joana: I was embarrassed about being undocumented because I didn't want to get bullied. I was so afraid because I have seen cases where kids have been bullied. My brother was bullied. I didn't want to go through that. I was so scared, and I didn't want to leave my family.Anita: You mean you didn't want to get deported?Joana: Yeah, I didn't want to get deported at all. I don't think anyone does. No one wants to go through all the process. It's pretty scary. [Emotional].Anita: This was a secret that you kept?Joana: Being undocumented was my darkest secret. I didn't want anyone to find out. I was terrified. I didn't want to be separated from my family again, [Emotional] because I didn't grow up with them for about four years. It was extremely hard. Yeah.Anita: I can't imagine... I mean, you talk about fear, you talk about being ashamed, and then there's the issue about having to keep a secret.Joana: Imagine… I don't think anyone being a citizen has a fear of anything. They're free to go anywhere they want. They're free to do whatever they want. They can study all the way to where they want to get, and we don't. We don't get that opportunity. [Crying]. I don't think anyone should go through that. It's just, it's not fair. I had dreams when I was a little kid. I wanted to be someone in life. I wanted to have a career. That was probably the main reason of why I decided to drop out because I figured, I mean, I'm not going to get to go to college, I'm not going to get to have a career here, so why do I even try? They make us feel less, like we don't matter at all, like our lives are just worthless, and that's not the case. We contribute to everything. We try to follow the law. Still, that doesn't count. That doesn't matter at all. It's really, really hard. It's extremely hard.

oana: Yes, ma'am. Kindergarten.Anita: What was that like? Do you remember that? When do your memories start?Joana: [Chuckles] They do start in kindergarten, but then again, I went to—I don't remember how many schools during elementary. Then in middle school, my mom really had a struggle settling down, because in ____ there's some areas where they have a lot of crime. It was kind of rough, but now she's settled down.Anita: But she moved around in ____ all the time?Joana: Yeah. Yes, yes.Anita: So, you spent your whole time in elementary school in ____?Joana: Yes. I went to about three schools in elementary and about two in middle school and then one in high school.

Joana: It's been crazy. Pretty much. I cried. I remember that my mom went to pick me up and she basically stole me, technically, because I really didn't know her. I didn't want to leave, but I didn't have another choice.Anita: Were you kicking and screaming?Joana: Yes, I definitely was. I remember I opened my arms and my legs when they were trying to force me in the taxi, because I didn't want to leave. I was crying and yelling and screaming and I couldn't do anything. Yeah.Anita: So, did it get better once you got to ____?Joana: Yes, because I got to know her and, well, she was my mother. I didn't have any other choice but to get to know her. I mean, it was difficult because until this day I don't really have a lot of communications with her. I still don't have that connection. Pretty much, she spent her time working so we didn't really have time to actually sit down. She didn't ask, "How are you doing? How is school?" Anything. "Do you have problems? Are you having trouble?" I mean, nothing.Anita: So, why did she want to take you?Joana: Well, she said that I was her daughter and that she loved me. Well, she was sending money, she was taking care of me in a way, but I just wasn't living with her. But it wasn't her choice either, because when she left, she couldn't take me at that time. She tried to get me with her, and she actually did. So, it was basically that.Anita: Do you think her lack of affection, as you've described it, was because you didn't spend your first few years together?Joana: I think so. I think that has a lot to do with it, because I kind of see the way she treats my brother and my sister—she had them since they were born—every year, every day, every single minute. With me it wasn't like that. She already was remarried with my stepdad, of course. It was really difficult for me.

Anita: Let's start with the first time you left.Joana: The first time I left, I was fourteen, and pretty much it was supposed to be just a family visit, and it kind of extended a little bit longer than it was supposed to. Then I just went back. My mom called me. She was like, "Okay, I'm ready. Go ahead.”

Jesus: Changing a government, the thing that has been established for over decades, is like changing religion. [Laughs]. It's one of the hardest things to do. In religion, all the religions teach the same thing. Love one another, peace. So why can't all of them be just one religion? But, no. It's just separation. It's just changing separation, having to unify people when everybody's already separated, they've been like that for decades, takes a lot of people. I think the solution to that would be just unifying the country, and making that one goal, one human goal. The one goal that every human could have, and everybody could have access to food and shelter and stuff, but based on wanting the people to grow, want their knowledge to grow, because more people put their minds on one thing. It's easier for it to be done, it's proven. You get five people to flip a car over, they'll do it. If one person tries, they're never going to do it. So just changing everybody's mindsets and having the opportunity for everybody to live correctly, I think that would make a better world. It would help everybody use their minds for other things than just work. They could use it for their creative sides where they could start creating things that could help better mankind as a whole. Like free energy. Water is infinite—not really, because we're killing it, you know? [Laughs].

esus: The thing about government is, we're never going to be able to control it. It's only 1% that controls that system. So, trying to change the government is going to be the hardest thing to do. I'm guessing it's more like changing yourselves, changing the people, because the people are the majority of the people that live in the United States. So maybe just changing off from that racism and that stereotypes and all that, and going a different way, taking a different look at life where we're just humans.Lizzy: So, try to change people's attitudes?Jesus: Yeah. We should all just have a chance to do something. Maybe that will make the best out of everybody.

Jesus: That's a really good question. Well, for me, it was mostly I didn't even know I was going over there, so everything was just interesting. [Chuckles] Then once I got there, life was difficult for me being an immigrant, especially because I did it illegally. If I had done it legally, I think it would've been much easier, and I would've probably done a lot better, had a lot of things to look forward to and stuff. But I guess, just open your mind. Just to be open to people, not judge a book by its cover. If you get to know them, you might know that they have other things that are better. Do you want to better yourself, better the world, better everybody? It's hard. It's hard when you don't have access to things. A lot of people need support. A lot of people have good ideas, good intentions. They just need that support.

Jesus: Well, I want to visit here in Mexico first because I heard there's a lot of nice beaches and a lot of super nice places to go to. The forest and pyramids and stuff. I've been to a few, but I want to go to a lot more. Then after that, I want to go to Canada, so I could study. I want to be a pilot.Lizzy: Cool. So, you want to go to school for that in Canada?Jesus: Yeah, because out here, it's super expensive. It's like two million pesos.

Lizzy: But it's a good dream. What about here in Mexico? Is there something that you wish people understood about migrants like you that have lived in the US and have come back to Mexico?Jesus: Well, to think things differently. To have a different approach on things because over there, it's more liberal in the States. They reserve some things, but if you ask them for help, they might be more willing to help you than here, because everybody here is super sketchy: "I don't know if you're going to rob me, I don't know if you're going to do this.” If I go out and I ask somebody, "Can I borrow five bucks just to get home?" They're not going to want to do it because they think I'm just going to go and get high or whatever. A lot of people judge me, even here. They think I'm bad or something. I don't know why. Last time I got kicked out of a store, I went to go buy bread and whatever. I was in the store, and this guy got super crazy. He's like, "No, you're going to rob me." He pulled out a knife and he's like, "You're going to rob me, you're going to rob me." I was like, "What the hell, dude? I'm just trying to buy bread." [Chuckles].

Lizzy: And I've heard some people say that they don't really feel like they're from here, they don't really feel like they're from there either. Do you feel like that at all, or do you feel more Mexican or more American?Jesus: I feel more like a human being from Earth. [Chuckles]. I'm not really even from any country in particular. I could be Japanese for all I know. It's just culture. It depends on what culture. But I like Mexican culture, it's super nice. Everybody says “Hello,” “Good morning,” “Good afternoon,” when you come out of the house. That's really nice. Over there in the States, I wouldn't see that. So, there's big differences, there's differences in lifestyles. They both have their good and their bad. Just human, you know?Lizzy: I love that, I love that you said that. We're all humans. Yeah. Why do we need to divide it?Jesus: Yeah, I always thought about that. There shouldn't be a division in the world. Everybody can learn from everybody else. Like you're doing now, you can learn from me as I can learn from you. What's the difference? It's just the barriers we place on each other.

esus: It makes me miss it somewhat because it was really nice. Life over there is super nice. You can't compare to living here. Everything's fucked up over here unfortunately. [Laughs]. It's a super nice country. Everything is beautiful, but everything is corrupt, and cops are assholes, people sometimes are assholes. There's a lot of drugs, a lot of violence.Lizzy: Have any cartels or drugs tried to approach you, or have you had any experiences with them since you've been back?Jesus: The thing about the cartels is they're not really here in the city. They're mostly more south or more up north, because right here is where it's more controlled actually. That's what I'm learning. Right here in the city, it's mostly controlled, so the cartels don't come in here that much. Or if they do, it's low key. You don't really know about them.Lizzy: So that's not something you've had to deal with?Jesus: Nah. I had to deal with the casual guy that doesn't have nothing else to do but rob, steal.Lizzy: Have you gotten robbed?Jesus: They tried, but they didn't succeed. [Laughs].

Lizzy: So, you did look into applying for DACA?Jesus: Yeah, but I wasn't able to. I was like, “I can't even do that so ...”Lizzy: That's really frustrating.Jesus: Yeah. Then I didn't see a future for myself over there because of all of that, and I didn't have paperwork. I did have a good job; I was getting paid good. But even that was unsure because I was kind of not doing it legally. [Chuckles]. So, everything, my life was unsure at that point. I had my own house, I was paying rent, all of that. Even so, I didn't see a future, because I was like, “When am I going to get a house by myself, all this mortgage and loans and debt? I don't have paperwork. I don't have a secure job and all that shit. I'm not going to make it here. Even if I wanted to, it's going to be super hard. It's going to be double the time and I have to pay lawyers, whatever.” So, I was like, “I'll head over to Mexico.” Plus, I have land here.

Jesus: Well, I was getting in trouble with the law, not really because I wanted to, but because I didn't have papers. I bought a car and stuff, and I would drive, and they would pull me over, and I wouldn't have a driver's license or insurance or none of that. So, I'd get a ticket, they'd get my car taken away, stuff like that.Lizzy: So different things related to driving?Jesus: Yeah, it was mostly driving. They would pull me over a lot for that. Sometimes they'll let me go. I'd be like, “That's really cool,” because I would just use the car to go to work and come back. I would even be dressed and everything and tell them, "I'm just getting off work, just trying to get home. I ain't doing nothing bad," and they'd be like, "All right, we'll let you go this one time," or whatever.Lizzy: So sometimes they let you go, but sometimes it was a bigger deal?Jesus: Yeah, sometimes it'd be like, “No, can't do it.” I was like, “Whatever. Give me my fine and take my car away.” Then all those tickets, and all that with the law, when the DREAM Act came out, I wasn't able to apply because of that, because I had a criminal record.Lizzy: Criminal record, but just based on traffic violations?Jesus: Traffic violations, mostly.

I had friends that were in gangs, but that didn't make me want to go in there and get involved in all that.Lizzy: Did they ever try to get you to join?Jesus: Yeah, they were like, “You want to join this, you want to join my gang?” I was like, “No, I don't want to.” [Chuckles].Lizzy: Why didn't you want to?Jesus: Because I honestly thought it was stupid. Fuck, you guys are killing each other for some dumb shit. I didn't want to be part of that. [Chuckles].Lizzy: Did any of your friends talk about why they did want to join?Jesus: I guess to get support or whatever from their other homies. I think it was mostly peer pressure for them. That's why they got involved. But for me, I was just like, “Man, I don't want to be part of that.” Stayed away from that.

Lizzy: Do you remember what your first day of school was like in the US?Jesus: Yeah. It was like, “I don't know what the hell is going on.” [Chuckles]. Literally, I just got in there and they were talking in English, and I was like, “Okay, I don't know what the hell you're saying.”Lizzy: Yeah. You probably didn't know any English, right?Jesus: No, I didn't. Exactly. I was just confused. I don't know what to do. Yeah. But I had a teacher that spoke Spanish. I remember she told me once, "I'm going to help you out for a little bit. Hablar español e inglés." I was like, “Oh, that's cool.” But I remember one day, I think she got frustrated or something, and she's like, "I'm not going to talk to you in Spanish anymore. This is the last day I'm talking to you in Spanish. That's it."Lizzy: Oh, wow. Was that scary, to have her Spanish taken away?Jesus: I was just like, “Damn. I don't know what I'm going to do now.” So, I just had to learn English, and I did.Lizzy: Do you think that that helped you learn more or made it worse?Jesus: I think it did, I think it did help me, because if she would've just been speaking Spanish, I would've just continued, so I wouldn't have learned as much.Lizzy: Yeah, then you were forced to speak English?Jesus: Yeah, it was practical, you have to do it. So, I was like, “All right,” so I did it.

Lizzy: Then where did you live when you first got to the US?Jesus: Los Angeles.Lizzy: Okay. What part of LA?Jesus: By LAX, actually.Jesus: It was super close. I could skate to the beach.Lizzy: I love that part of LA.Jesus: Yeah, it's really nice. Super beautiful, everything, the beaches. I would even skate from Manhattan all the way to Santa Monica.Lizzy: Wow.Jesus: Yeah, I'd go back and forth and stuff, Palos Verdes.Lizzy: So, you really got into that California skate culture?Jesus: Yeah. With my friends, they knew how to skate, and I was like, “Whoa, that looks cool.” [Chuckles]. I want to do it.” So, I started skating. It's a good form of transportation too, can get anywhere with it. [Chuckles].

Jesus: I didn't even know. It was just my mom told me to pack my things up and I was like, "Alright." So, I just packed all my toys—I was a little kid. Then we headed for the airport. That took us to TJ. Then from there, they crossed us over.Lizzy: Did you drive across the border or walk across?Jesus: Well, they separated me and my mom. When we got to TJ, they were like, "Your mom's going to go another place, and you're going to come with the guy that I was going to cross with, whatever.” So, I went with him in his truck and we just crossed like nothing, no border.Lizzy: What did you think about it at the time? I know you were young, but do you remember—Jesus: I wasn't really scared. But everything was different, I didn't know what the hell was going on. But I wasn't scared, I was just curious. I'm like, “What's going on? What the hell are we doing?

Lizzy: Do you have a favorite memory from your childhood, or even a worst memory from your childhood in Mexico?Jesus: Playing in the arcades. I was a little kid, so I don't really have that much memories.Lizzy: Playing in the arcades?

Jesus: Like I said, [Sigh], over here, and I hate to say this, it's like law is lawless. Israel has brought this up before too. 1% of crimes get solved here. The reality is, if a husband gets mad at their wife, whatever amount of violence he brings onto her, chances are it's not going to get resolved, and not quickly and it's not going to be fair way. So, I just feel like—oh wait, what was the question one more time? Sorry about that.Anita: I was wondering whether women are more jealous or possessive here than in the States?Jesus: Yeah. So, I feel like up in the States because the laws are more fair, if you hit a woman up in the States, the law's going to come down on you. Regardless of whether or not you actually did hit them, or didn't, the law's going to come down, and it's going to take it down on the man whatever way possible. And so, women over there are more willing to be like, "Hey, you know what? You're messing around with this other girl. I'll go mess around with someone else." So, it's safer for them. They can go out to the club and be like, "This guy, he doesn't mean this. So, I'm going to go out with my girls, hook up with another dude.” Over here, if they try and do that, sometimes you get the issue of where the guy gets jealous and like I said, the crimes don't get solved here very quick, so...

I'm also curious whether living in the States and having relationships in the States makes you approach your relationship differently than a Mexican woman would. And what are those differences?Jesus: The differences that I've noticed so far, I feel like coming from the States and being binational, I'm quicker to move on in the relationship. It's like, "Oh, let's move in together." Over there, you're more independent, there's more money, so you're more willing to get your own apartment and be like, "Hey, just come stay at my place." And then they stay for a week or two. And over here it's like, "Oh hey, come and stay at my place." And they're like, "No, I can't do that, because my mom, this and that." And moving in with your partner here, is pretty much like getting married. So, it's a big cultural difference there too.

So, sort of in a relationship, how does that cultural difference manifest itself?Jesus: Cultural differences? Like I said, she's from the big city too, so it's not just the cultural difference, but it's like a big city cultural difference too. I don't know. I come from a small town where you don't really hang out with your ex. You're not really connected with the people that did you wrong because everybody in the town knows each other. Why are you going to go and hang out with this person? Especially when you're dating someone else. Why would you go back with your ex? But this is such a big city, and it makes sense that you wouldn't want to... It's so easy to get lost here so why would you want to lose connection with somebody you already know? I don't know if that makes any sense. So then for me, it was like, 'Why are you still talking to your ex?" So, a little bit of jealousy on my part, but then a little jealousy on her part too. Because whenever she'd see me talking to another girl, even if it was work related, it was like, "Why are you talking to her?"

Jesus: Let's see. Three, four, five, six, nine times five. Forty-five. Forty-five hours. Forty-five or more.Anita: How much are you earning?Jesus: It's a commission-based structure, but we're making US dollars in Mexico.Anita: What's the job?Jesus: Just being a carrier, connecting semi loads to semi drivers. [Chuckles]. So just kind of being a broker.Jesus: Yeah. And then, pretty much doing that. It's a little tough, because you got to wrap your mind around the entire industry. You're not just connecting one person to another. You have to understand all the standards and what the drivers want—connect with them on a personal level, if they're going to go see their families over the weekend.

Anne: That's great. Have you worked for pay since you have been back?Jesus: Yeah, Teleperformance.Anne: So it’s a call center?Jesus: Yeah, a call center. Working for FedEx.Anne: How much were you paid for your current or most recent job?Jesus: 1,200 pesos a week.

Jesus: What caused me? I hadn't seen my dad in 15 years and, well, like most criminals, the government starts turning some heads.Anne: Were you detained and deported? Voluntary departure?Jesus: Voluntary departure.Anne: With voluntary departure did you appear before a judge?Jesus: No, it was a really weird experience, was not expecting to walk past and pay a nickel to get across the border, and also my phone line cutting out as soon as I got across the bridge from El Paso. I was like, “I still needed internet you know?” [Both laugh].

Yes, like I was saying, growing up without your citizenship and just as an illegal immigrant, you kind of get the feeling you're a criminal and that's the kind of path. That's like, I don't know, you tell that to your kid, "Hey you're illegal" and that's what they kind of start to think as they get older. Like, “Don't trust authority, don't go to the police.” You just get in this mindset of wanting to be a criminal because it’s just kind of what path is chosen for you.

Frank: Sometimes they say, "I don't trust Mexicans because Mexicans, they're criminals. So I don't want to give any of my personal information”. Even if it's just for payment or just for providing any information, knowing that they are calling their company, we're not calling them. It's basically their information is secure with us and it's not just for being Mexican that I'm going to rob them, but it happens all the time.

Frank: So there was those racist comments. I know that I was not on a Latino community area because Minnesota, there is not a lot of Latinos, but there was a lot of African people and Thailand. They were my friends, instead of being with American people.

Also, when I was working on delivering the paper, there was customers that were so patriotic that they were even leaving notes… how do you say… saying that there was not delivered their paper.Lizzie: Like a complaint?Frank: A complaint, that's correct answer. They were leaving their complaints saying that they don't want a Mexican to deliver their papers and there were homes where we will, as Mexican, we always like to give our best, so there was these parts where we had to walk the whole hallway to leave the paper between the doors and they still leave complaints being racist. Also, our supervisor were like, I'm not going to take it aware of this complaint so I'm going to pay to you, but they are going to still be affecting you.

Frank: For example, that there was a lot of bullying on my school. Either that it was not, we could say, a whole American school. It was like a mix school where there were people from Asia, Thailand, Greece, Nigeria, and us Latinos were from Guatemala and all this stuff. We were on this special group and all my mates from the classroom they were saying that we were the retarded group because we were on a English Learning Skills [program].

Because I was searching for any type of programs that we can go to the US, but as we know, they're always requiring not living in the US before. They also require a visa, which is impossible to get in Mexico.Lizzie: Impossible. Yep.Frank: It's really impossible because you need to, why I tell you this because I also try to get visa. You need to give a banking account with more than 50,000 Pesos. Also, that's just for a week that you can only go and that's as a tourist and you have to have a family member or a friend or a relative that gives proof that you're going to that address. We know that most people are scared of providing information to the government.

Frank: I will say that I consider myself a Mexican who lived in the U.S.. That is the way I can consider myself because I had the experience, I take the good things that U.S. leave to me for example, the English and then taking all the advantage of it and I just want to keep on my mind all the bad experience that I had over there.

Yeah. For example, as we know, most of the famous engineers, they were Mexicans. For example, we can talk about the color TV everyone uses on the whole world, but it became from a Mexican. So, I want to mark the history of Mexico and have a special project an invent that could help the whole world. I would like to leave my mark on the history of Mexico and not saying it was a Mexican, I'm sorry for the [inaudible] but it was a Mexican who got development in Canada or the USA and here's the achievement. So that's what I would really like. Also for example, I don't know if you have used the Metro cards?Lizzie: Yep.Frank: It's an invent from the Politecnico and it's something that it's really improving a lot of places here and public transport to make it a lot easier and green ecology for the world. I really want to leave my mark. We have programs, for example, at this moment we're working on a specific top quad for the roofing like…Imperma -- I don't know how to say it.Lizzie: Like a layer to go on the roof...Frank: A layer to go on the roof that it's a hundred percent ecologic and we're working in developing on it…It's something that at this moment, as a group on my University, we're working on it, but we hope that we can leave a mark on the green environment that we're trying to make on Mexico. We can say it's a mentality that our University makes on us. I want to continue with that because it's okay if I say on Spanish?

Frank: With this engineering degree basically, since it's more for communications and electronic, at this moment I'm doing an extra course of programming so I can learn a little another specialty and between my goals, it's either get a good job here that is worth talking about 25,000 per month. If not, I'm planning to make all my migration status to go to Canada.

So, she offered it to me that we can continue, try to see if we can get any type of help so you can continue studying and also my parents offered me if I wanted came back to Mexico because I wanted to get into the Army, but they told me that if I want to serve to country that I should serve to my country. So that's another reason why I also come back to Mexico.Lizzie: Did you think about serving in the Army in the U.S. or in Mexico?Frank: Actually, this get into my mind because my brother when he was on the senior high, he got this paper saying that he wanted to serve but it was just a copy, not the hard copy. My dad just break it off and say if you want to go serve to a country, serve to your country. My brother came on to tell us in 2015 and in 2016 that he get into the Mexico army.Lizzie: Do you still want to join the army here?Frank: Actually, I try it four times. I try first for an engineer and because of the culture exam I wasn't able to get in. On the second one. I got into like a backup, but it was for medicine. I wanted to be a surgeon and because of the spaces we have to wait 15 days to see if anyone quits and if it's the case and we still have time, then they get from the reserve and they join, they complete the groups again, but I stay on the seventh space, so I needed seven people more to quit so I could get in to join in. The other two times I tried again, but the first time they told me for the engineer [program] I was over the age that I wasn't able to continue on because I wanted to get into the army to continue studying, but they told me because of the age I was not able to get into that program.

there was a program where they said that we can get in contact to go and visit the White House because I wanted to learn a little bit more about the culture.Frank: So, I make my essay in Spanish. She helped me for around three months to get all of the essay translated to English. She also was helping me making my essay. I remember that it was around 800 words. We had to write out, so I make my effort. She helped me send all the forms and two or three weeks after, I received a letter. It was coming also with the stamp the color gold and because on those times I was not really getting into the English.Frank: I brought it to her and to see if she can translate it for me and she was telling me, actually she didn't want it to hurt my feelings, so she started telling me in other words that I didn't qualify because there was things missing on the essay, but now that I can understand it, I can see that because of my immigration status I was not able to qualify for the visit to the White House. So I still have the envelope, as a memory, and I have all those papers. Basically with all my information, they were telling me that because my immigration status, I cannot go to the White House.

Erik: Nothing because, honestly, I don't want to be like a crybaby person. I took my own decisions. I mentioned I had three chances to marry, I didn't. You know? I don't put blame on nobody. But I will tell the Trump supporter, I don't know. You ever read the—It was the French philosopher? He meant every country deserves their government. They deserve it. [Laughs]. It’s what they want. It's what they deserve. It's what I think. The same of Mexican people. We are corrupt, we have corrupt government.

Erik: On the Obama's presidency, the immigration laws, they have a—I don't know the terminology, but they considered morals. You have morals? You don't have a criminal background? You don't have felonies? Which, I don't have even a criminal record. It was only a driver’s license offense. It was like going to jail for steal Doritos. [Laughs]. You know? But that's it. So, my dreams, it was like, “Well, if you go to court, when you go to court, supposed to be... Justice, no? And if you see a judge...” [Laughs]. I could even see, on the judge face, “I going to fuck you up, but I don’t have to.” I could see that on the judge face when he give me the sentence. I’m sorry for cursing, but I could see that on his face. Like, “I going to deport you but.” He has a face like he is doing something wrong. [Laughs]