Anne:        Your dreams, your goals, what would you like to do with your life?Isaid:        I still don't know yet, but I would like to get a good job. I would like to travel a lot and I have like, my wild dream is actually to become a musician, like a famous one. I actually have a band. Yeah. So that's-Anne:        What kind of a band?Isaid:        It's a rock band. Yeah.Anne:        Wow. Do you play? Do you have gigs?Isaid:        We're working on that. We're practicing right now to get gigs.Anne:        What instrument do you play?Isaid:        I play the guitar and I sing in some songs. Not all of the songs, but I sing some songs.Anne:        Do you write the songs?Isaid:        Yeah.Anne:        Wow.Isaid:        That's like my wild dream.

Anne:        Has it been hard to find the support for college? Like the money to keep you going?Isaid:        Well a little bit. Yeah. Because my mom supports me financially, but she has to pay for my school. She has to pay for my living, for my food, everything. And it's a little hard. Yeah. Economically it's hard.

Anne:        Five years. So has it been mostly going to school since you got back or did you go to work as well?Isaid:        Mostly school. I work, but freelance work. I haven't done anything formal.Anne:        What kind of freelance?Isaid:        Marketing, photography, that kind of stuff.Anne:        And you learned the photography in the US?Isaid:        Yeah. Yeah. I started there. Yeah.Anne:        That's great. That's great. So what are you studying in school now?Isaid:        International business. I actually started in communications, but I changed to international business.

Anne:        Uh-huh (affirmative). So when you came back to Mexico, did you move in back with your grandmaIsaid:        Yeah, yeah. With my grandparents, but that was just for a few months. And then I started living with my aunt and an uncle.Anne:        And did you go back to school?Isaid:        Yeah. Yeah, I started college. Sure.Anne:        How far are you in?Isaid:        I have a year. I still have a year. I graduate in a year.Anne:        Great. How long have you been back?Isaid:        Five years.

Anne:        Yeah. So you finished high school, you graduated from high school and then you said, "I'm going back." How'd that work out?Isaid:        Actually, I finished high school and then I wanted a year to clear off my mind, to take it like a vacation. When I told people here in Mexico that I live in the US they were like, "Oh, that's so great." I was like, "No, it isn't. It's really hard." But if you take it as a vacation, I think it helps. So my last year it was more like a vacation to me till I decided what I wanted to do. So my mom wanted me to go to college there, but I said, "No, I'm done." I mean, that's it. Like, I didn't have a really good relationship with my stepdad.Isaid:        So I remember one day we got into a kind of fight and we started screaming at each other. And I said to my mom, "You know I love you, but that's enough. I'm going back. I don't care if you support me or not. I'm going to do it. I did it your way now. I'm doing it my way since you don't want to help me and I'm gonna do it my way." So she understood me and she actually supported me at the end, so.

Anne:        Wow. Did you do any extracurriculars, like sports or art or music?Isaid:        I took photography course and a music production course.Anne:        Uh-huh (affirmative).Isaid:        With them . Yeah.Anne:        Were those good?Isaid:        Yeah. Yeah, I really liked it. It helped me a little. Anne:        Mm-hmm (affirmative).Isaid:        Yeah.Anne:        It helped you just adjust or make friends, or?Isaid:        Yeah, to adjust.Anne:        Be less lonely?Isaid:        Yeah, yeah. To make a hobby out of it.

Anne:        And then she put you into school?Isaid:        Yeah, she put me in school.Anne:        And you weren't happy?Isaid:        No. I never was actually.Anne:        You were not?Isaid:        No.Anne:        Did you make friends?Isaid:        A few, but I entered high school until half of my second or my third year, I started making friends. My first year it was like I didn't have any friends. It was hard for me because I didn't speak the language that well. I understood because it was all in English. All my classes were in English. But I didn't speak it. So I was a really quiet person over there. So that was really hard.Anne:        Did you miss your grandparents?Isaid:        Yeah. Yeah, I did. Because they were like my mom and my dad. I grew up with them since I was born until I was 13, 14 years old. So it was really hard for me.Anne:        Did you miss your friends in Mexico?Isaid:        Yeah, yeah, I did.

Anne:        Okay. So when she brought you over, when you were in ninth grade or after ninth grade, did she have papers for you or did you cross the border?Isaid:        Oh, I crossed with a visa.Anne:        You had a visa?Isaid:        Yeah.Anne:        Tourist?Isaid:        A tourist Visa.

Anne:        So your mom left you when you were eight?Isaid:        Yeah.Anne:        Did she leave you with your grandparents?Isaid:        Yeah. Yeah, my grandparents.Anne:        And where was your dad?Isaid:        I never met him.Anne:        Oh.Isaid:        So, yeah.Anne:        And so you went through ninth grade.... So she left when you were eight and then you went to the US when you were about 14 or 13?Isaid:        Oh, 14, I think.Anne:        So it was six years without her. That must have been hard.Isaid:        Yeah, it was. It is till this day.Anne:        Yeah.Isaid:        But-Anne:        Did you guys talk a lot on the phone, or?Isaid:        Well, we keep in contact through WhatsApp or Facebook. And I go visit her whenever I have vacations. I go over there and I visit her.Anne:        She went initially, when you were eight. Was that just to make more money?Isaid:        Well, yeah, yeah. She was working here in Mexico, but she got a job offer in St. Louis, Missouri.Anne:        St. Louis? Yeah?Isaid:        Yeah. But she didn't get it at the end. And she ended up living in San Diego.Anne:        Oh.Isaid:        But it has nothing to do with... But I think she really liked it there, so she stayed. She wanted me to stay there. My grandparents wanted me to stay there, but.

Isaid:        Okay. Well, you have my name, Isaid (redacted last name)  I grew up in Mexico City, but my mom left when I was eight years old to work in the US and she has been there ever since. I started here in Mexico until ninth grade and then my mom decided it was time for me to go to the US with her.

Julian:        I think the way of thinking. Just a lot of things that you can say that if you would've stayed in Mexico, you would've just been like just one of the... You know, just work hard. Because right here in Mexico, the thing is that there's a lot of companies that, Mexican companies, that they've hired people, but they get paid really low, you know? When I really got here, I used to work in a company, I used to get paid a 1100 for the whole week. And I used to work hard, you know?Anne:        Yeah.Julian:        And then when I moved to call centers, I get paid in pesos, but I get paid more, for even more money. So you can say being in the US, you can learn English and just come to Mexico and just be a better person. You just need a little knowledge for you to actually be somebody.

Anne:        What do you miss about the US?Julian:        Everything. Over here, it's really difficult to get a car, they cost too much. Over there, it's easier to get anything, you know what I mean?Julian:        I miss the food. It's not the same. I miss a lot of things.Anne:             Do you think living in the US made you a different person? Like different than you would have been if you'd stayed in Mexico all your life?Julian:        Yeah. Absolutely.

Anne:        So you've lived by yourself since you've been here? With your...Julian:        Yeah, with my wife.Anne:        With your wife. And she's a US citizen?Julian:        Yeah.Anne:        So is it hard for her to get papers to work in Mexico?Julian:        Yeah. It's just crazy. It's really difficult because the Mexican pesos, you need to put the marriage certificate in Spanish and you need to do all this stuff.Anne:        Wow.Julian:        I mean, it's more easy for us. As soon as you do all that, it's easier for her to get the papers than me getting the papers from the US, but it's a hassle, you know?

Anne:        And were you married at that point or no?Julian:        No, not at that point.Anne:        Did she come to Mexico to marry you?Julian:        Yeah, she's right here.Julian:        No, I actually got married when I was locked up.Anne:        Oh you did?Julian:        Yeah.Anne:        And she came with you?Julian:        Yeah.Anne:        That's great. Right?Julian:        Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is good because she's a keeper, you know? She was willing to just not care what her family said, just to follow me. So yeah, it's really good. It feels good.

I never thought I was going to get deported. So that happened.Anne:        So once you got out of jail, did ICE take you? Or did you have some sort of-Julian:        Yeah, ICE. ICE took me right away. When I was about to get out, it was a week, and then before the week, ICE came and they were like, "Hey you, we got a hold on you."Anne:        You were out for a week?Julian:        No.Anne:        No?Julian:        I was, I was...Anne:        About to...Julian:        About to be.Anne:        I see.Julian:        About to get out. One week before I got out, and they just came and snatched me. They were like, "Hey, we know you got a visa, but for your record, I think you're going to have to fight for your visa."Anne:        So did you go in front of a judge, or?Julian:        Yeah, everything. I went and I do it all.Anne:        But you decided on voluntary departure?Julian:        Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Julian:        No, state. State prison.Anne:        What was it like?Julian:        You learn a lot of stuff. You learn, you either decide two things. You either decide if you're going to do good or you're still going to be doing bad stuff.Anne:        What did you decide?Julian:        To do good. I just wanted to get out. I already know how to do time, I just wanted to get out, and be with my family. I never thought I was going to get deported. So that happened.

Anne:        Were your parents also documented? Do they have papers?Julian:        No, not them.Anne:        How did you get the papers, if they...Julian:        Because pretty much, I guess my mom started doing the paperwork since before we left from Mexico, so we got approved just for a tourist visa.Anne:        Oh, a tourist visa. Yeah, yeah.Julian:        And they were trying to apply, but they didn't got qualified. I don't know why, it’s kind of weird. And one of my uncles just told them we’d just send them, and we'll take good care of them meanwhile you guys crossing.Anne:        So you had a tourist visa, so it was easy to cross for you?Julian:        Yeah.Anne:        Oh, that's great. But not for your mom and dad?Julian:        Not for my mom and my dad, no.Anne:        So did your parents get you lawyers and that sort of thing for your...Julian:        Yeah. I still got my lawyer. Right now, I'm married, so my wife, she's a US citizen, so she's wishing to fix me papers, so we still got my lawyer. And I don't know if we are going to be able to save my case or not. I really don't know what's going on right now.Anne:        So when did you get married?Julian:        2016.Anne:        Pardon?Julian:        2016.Anne:        How old are you now?Julian:        23.Anne:        So you were 20? You got married when you were 20?Julian:        Mm-hmm (affirmative).Anne:        Do you have any children?Julian:        No, no. Not yet.Anne:        So she's a US citizen?Julian:        Yeah.

Anne:        So when was the first time you were imprisoned? Or caught, or convicted of a crime?Julian:        When I was, I think, 17. Yeah, perhaps I was 17.Anne:        So after you'd graduated from high school?Julian:        Yeah.Anne:        And what was the crime for?Julian:        Possession of a gun, drugs.Anne:        Were you selling drugs?Julian:        Yeah, you could say that.Anne:        Did you end up in jail after that?Julian:        Yeah. I started going back to jail, just in and out of juvenile halls, branches.

Julian:        Actually, I went with documents. I had a visa.Anne:        Oh, you did?Julian:        Yeah. I had a visa, and I just lost it because I started getting incarcerated.Anne:        So you could get a license and you could get a social security card and all that?Julian:        Yeah. Yeah, and I just lost everything when I just started going to prison and all that.

Anne:        So as you were growing up, when did you start getting in trouble?Julian:        I think when I was in middle school.Anne:        In middle school?Julian:        In middle school, I started hanging out with the wrong people.Anne:        Was it gangs?Julian:        Yeah. Started hanging out with gangs and I ended up doing bad stuff.Anne:        So we see that a lot. That young boys who come to the States from Mexico, they do end up often getting connected with gangs or with some crime. Why do you think that is?Julian:        I don't know, man. I really don't know, because I used to have a loving family. I used to get all the love from my mom and my dad. And I don't know, I just started hanging out with them, just, I don't know, because I was bored? You could say I was bored at home, so I just started going out. So I think that's one of the reasons why I got in gangs. There's some other people that get in gangs because they don't got nobody taking care of them at home, so they just go out looking for that love, you know?

Anne:        And did you have siblings with you?Julian:        Yeah, my brothers. I got my little brother there, right now he's 17. And my big sister there, she's 26.Anne:        So what was home life like in the States?Julian:        It was pretty good, man. Actually, it was really different when we were here. We still have our house right here, but it's just the streets and people, how they act, is really different. There's a lot of loss over here, so I hear pretty much it's different in the way that cops, they don't really care about you right here, you know? You got to be, you can say one man by themselves. So yeah, it's pretty much different.Anne:        Yeah, pretty much different.Anne:        So was your dad with you as well? Or just your mom?Julian:        Yeah. No, my mom and my dad.

Anne:        Did you like school?Julian:        Kind of, yeah. The only class I liked was science, but I never really was good on math and the other classes.Anne:        Did you enjoy the extracurriculars? Like sports or art or music?Julian:        Yeah, sports. Yeah, sports. Yeah, I liked sports. That was pretty, yeah, much just one of the classes that I liked too, sports, PE.

Anne:        Great, great. Did you make friends?Julian:        Yeah, a lot of friends. Yeah.

Anne:        So tell me about sort of the early time in the US. You probably came over, you didn't know any English?Julian:        No, no English. I didn't know no English. I pretty much grew up over there. I started going to school over there, they put me in fifth grade. And since in fifth grade, I learned English in two years. And just started going to high school, middle school, and all that.Anne:        So didn't you start in first grade?Julian:        No.Anne:        You said you were six.Julian:        I was six. When I was right here in Mexico, I was in fourth grade right here, this is because when I went over there, they put me in fifth grade because of my age.Anne:        I see. I see. And you learned English there?Julian:        Yeah.Anne:        How long did it take?Julian:        Two years.Anne:        Two years?Julian:        Yeah. They told me that I learned it really quick.

Julian:        Okay, I went to the United States because of my parents. They just wanted to have a little bit more money. My grandma and some uncles were over there. So they just took me when I was like six, and I was over there for 15 years.

Victor:        And so I have a place to live. I have a warm bed at nighttime. And so, that's a good thing. And so, I see this as a good thing also because also I'm deported. Y'all don't know my situation. I probably haven't aten in two or three days, right? I probably don't have money to eat. Y'all don't know that. But, I'm going to get 200 pesos, right? I'm able to eat something with that, right?

Victor:        I believe the government has already done its part. Because, I know people, and even family members that have been deported in the past, right? And they shared experiences they had in the past while getting deported. And they didn't mention, I remember they never mentioned the help. I got this when I got deported from the government. You know, we got food… You know, they have shelter for all the people that get deported. They help you with a little bit of money. They give you a discount for a bus ticket if you're traveling, going far. And so, I believe the government has already doing its part. But I believe they can still do more. You know, maybe create some sort of programs for people that get deported, for immigrants. Some sort of programs to show them how to cope with the country, with the circumstances, with when you feel vulnerable. But I don't know. Maybe I'm asking for too much.

Lizzy:        And so, on the flip side of that, now being back here in Mexico, what are your hopes now for your life in Mexico?Victor:        My hopes? My hopes? They're pretty high. They're pretty high. Because I believe that I might not have the tools or the resources to getting a certain kind of job, a good position. But, I do possess something that all the people don't have in this country. And that's the language. It's the English and Spanish, which most people call it bilingual.Lizzy:        Bilingual. You're fully bilingual.Victor:        And so, I can get a job using my English, right? Because, that's what, people… that’s what some companies, they probably need bilingual people. And so, I'm willing to use what I have, right? And put it into work. How, I’m still not sure, but I know something will come up. And when it does, I'm going to take advantage of that opportunity to the fullest. And so, I'm willing to grow, right? When a door opens up, because eventually it will, and I believe it will. A door will open up, and when it opens up, I'm going to take advantage of it to the fullest. And then I'm going to look for another opportunity to grow. Not only financially, but physically and mentally. So yeah, my hopes are pretty high right now. Even though I'm in Mexico, but my hopes are pretty high.

Lizzy:        Yeah. You mentioned before that you feel more vulnerable as a returning migrant, that you don't feel as safe here because of that.Victor:        Yes So… You know, I tried to go get my birth certificate and the lady that worked behind the desk, the clerk, she tried to get money from me, right? And I was already... I was already… it's like, people have warned me about that, right? And so, when I went there, they told me before I went there, I already knew I was not supposed to pay too much for my birth certificate, right? But, I guess somehow she, well, I'm just assuming, right? That somehow she, like, heard my accent. She's like, "Man, he's not from here." Somehow, right? And so she tried to get all this money from me, right? And then I just told her, "Man, I appreciate it man, you have a nice day. But, I'm good. I'm not going to get it right now." And so, I went somewhere else and got it for cheap, really cheap.Victor:        [Spanish 00:21:24] sometimes when I walk in stores, markets in the street, and they try to sell things to me for way too much, because they can tell I'm not from here, right? I don't know. They're like, "I can probably get a little extra change from him. Since he's not from here, he don't know the prices." I'm just assuming things, but it goes on.Lizzy:        Yeah. I've heard a lot of people say that. One thing I've heard a lot of people say is that they don't feel like they're fully from either place. Like, they don't feel fully Mexican or fully American. Would you say that's the case for you?Victor:        Yeah. Yeah, because sometimes when I'm speak English, people also say I have an accent. Either you're from Texas. You have that accent. When I lived in other cities, like in Gladstone, Missouri, or in Kansas City, Kansas, people would say, "Hey man, you're not from here, right? You're from California? You're from Texas?" "I'm from both. I'm not from Texas but I grew up in Texas." "Yeah I can tell. You got an accent, right?" And I don't mind. My English is not a hundred percent perfect, right? And I don't have papers and I'm not a US citizen. I was not born over there and I'm not from there. But, I feel like I'm not from here neither, right? So, to a certain point I feel like I really try hard, strive to not lose my identity, right? Trying to find myself, who I am inside. That's how I feel, like I'm not even from here, and I'm not from there. So, when they ask me, "Where are you from?" I just tell them sometimes I don't even know.

Because, you don't know a lot of things about the country, even though I'm born here. But, I don't know a lot of things about the country, right? And the people can tell I'm not from here because of the way I speak. They say I got an accent also when I speak Spanish, right?

Lizzy:        Then, we talked in the survey a bit about the workplace raid, what led to you being deported. Could you walk me through a little bit more? What was going through your mind or what were you thinking and feeling when that was going on?Victor:        It was traumatizing. It was traumatizing because there's like… there’s a lot of things that are finna to happen in your life, and a lot of unexpected things that are finna to happen, and you have to be ready to cope with those unexpected things. And sometimes you don't know how to cope with them. But then you have to be ready to deal with the circumstances. And so, it could be traumatizing, right? It could be frustrating at times. It could be confusing. It could lead you to make the wrong choices in life, right? If you feel frustrated, if you feel angry, when you feel confused. And so, I was not expecting the unexpected. And when it happened, it just shocking, right?Lizzy:        Did you see it coming at all?Victor:        I mean, I kind of did, you know? But, not like that. Not like that.

Lizzy:        Did you have any role models, people that you looked up to?Victor:        I had a role model, but I guess it was the wrong kind of role model.Lizzy:        Who was that?Victor:        My father.Lizzy:        What were some of the things that you looked up to him for?Victor:        Because he was not afraid to die, and so I just, like, wanted to be like him, you know? And so, I put that on my mind. I set that into my mind and my heart. I was not afraid to die, like my father. But then my father had, even though he stopped drinking, he had, you know, anger problems. And so, he would fight a lot, and he knew how to fight. So, you know…When I arrived to the US, I wanted to be like that too. And so, when people started bullying me at school, I started getting into a lot of fights. It was like I just got tired of it. And so, I started getting into a lot of fights. I wanted to be like my dad.Lizzy:        You had learned that from him.Victor:        Yes.

Lizzy:        What were the teachers like?Victor:        The teachers were cool. They were good people.Lizzy:        Did you have a favorite teacher?Victor:        Yes, I had a couple of them—favorite teachers, yeah. [inaudible 12:30]. Ms. Campbell. I remember Ms. Campbell. She was a white lady. She was cool. She taught me how to speak English. I learned a lot from her. She was cool. She was different from a lot of people. She was humble.Lizzy:        What grade was that?Victor:        Eight.Lizzy:        That was in eighth grade. So she was one of the first teachers you had when you arrived.Victor:        Yes. She was one of the first teachers. I had some more teachers that were cool, I just don't remember their names right now. But yeah, I had some teachers that were good people. I remember.

Lizzy:        What was that like going to school in the US when you first arrived, not knowing English? How was that?Victor:        Traumatizing. Traumatizing. Because, we didn't speak the language, right? And we still poor, so we got different outfits in school, you know? Busted shoes and clothes with holes in them and stuff like that. So, kids would make fun of us and they'd call us wetbacks and stuff like that.

Victor:        Well, that was, I would say another traumatizing experience, because I was only 13 years old when I went to the US, right? And I was skinny, and I was a little guy, right? And so I left with my brother, with my oldest brother. He was a little older. He was not that skinny. He was a big guy, right? So, we had to swim across the river. And they call it Río Bravo because in English it means, uh, like, the river of rage because it had taken so many lives. But anyways, we made it, right? But then we had to cross the checkpoint. We had to walk around the checkpoint. And sometimes it takes days, sometimes even weeks to walk around the checkpoint. So, you can only carry so much for food and water with you because if you carry way too much, it's too heavy, then you can't walk, right? So, uh—Lizzy:        So, were you hungry, thirsty?Victor:        You're hungry, thirsty. You're right around wild animals like hogs and spiders, rattle snakes, all kinds of different snakes.Lizzy:        And was it just you and your brother or were you with a group?Victor:        No. It was, like, a crowd of like 15 different people. But, I remember we would take breaks. Like every five, six hours we would take breaks, right? And the guys that were bringing us, they would gather all the crowd in one spot and then we would eat and rest for a little bit, for about 15, 20 minutes, and we would have to keep on walking. I remember there were times where I couldn't walk no more. And I thought I was ...Lizzy:        Because you are so tired or weak?Victor:        Well, I thought I was tired, but the reality is that I was dehydrated. And so, I would just, like, fall on my knees and I would tell them to, "Just leave me here man, y'all keep on walking man. Like, I can't do it no more, man." And my brother would pick me up and he'd be like, "Come on bro, let's go man." You know, excuse my language, but "You can do this shit man. You can do this shit man. Come on, let's go." And so, I would keep on walking.Lizzy:        How long were you walking? How many days?Victor:        We walked for like three days straight. Yeah, we walked for like three days straight. And we ran into a rattle snake at one point. My brother—my oldest brother almost stepped on it. He almost stepped on that snake.Lizzy:        That's terrifying.Victor:        Yeah. It was tough. It was scary.

We were all family. I guess it was just, we were too crowded. We were poor and needy, so that was one of the reasons why my parents decided to leave the country and went to United States to live particularly. Yes, it was rough growing up. When I was a child, it was rough.

Lizzy:        Okay. So this is Lizzy and Victor I are moving on to our interview now. So, I'm hoping that you can tell me just a little bit more about your life in Mexico before you went to the U.S. So, your childhood growing up here, who did you live with? What was that like?Victor:        I lived with a big family. It was like four, five different families in one big house. We were all family. I guess it was just, we were too crowded. We were poor and needy, so that was one of the reasons why my parents decided to leave the country and went to United States to live particularly. Yes, it was rough growing up. When I was a child, it was rough.Lizzy:        Did you ever… Were you aware of violence going on around you in your neighborhood, anything like that?Victor:        Yes, it was. But, even in my own house. I grew up in a dysfunctional family, alcoholic family. Most of my family, my grandfather, my parents, my brothers, my uncles, my cousins, they all drank. When they drank they would get violent. And so, in my own house it was a violent environment in my own home. And it was the same as well, like, in the streets, in the neighborhood. It was a violent neighborhood. And so, yes it was a tough time. Especially as I was little, I was a short guy, little guy, so I was… you know… I guess I can say I grew up being bullied in my own home and in the neighborhood as well, yes.Lizzy:        Were people violent towards you?Victor:        Yes.Lizzy:        What type of violence?Victor:        I would… I would get beat up. I would get beat up.Lizzy:        Is this by family members or in the neighborhood?Victor:        I would get beat up by my own brothers, by my little brother. He was always taller than me. And so my cousins, they were all, like, grown and big and tall, so they would beat me up in my house. And so when I would go out to the streets and, you know, try to get some release from home, and it was the same in the streets. Instead of having fun, playing with all the kids, all the kids will try to bully you, right? So, there was no escape. And so I would get beat up in the streets also, you know. And so that was my childhood. Messed up.Lizzy:        Was that something that continued once you were in the United States?Victor:        Yes. Yes. It continue also in the US. Not too much at home because my parents, they had changed. They have stopped drinking when they went back to the States. So, it kind of changed at home. But, at school, it was still going on. There were a lot of bullies, a lot of violence, a lot of gangs in the schools in Dallas. There was a lot of gang activity going on. So, it was the same thing going to school. A lot of violence, a lot of gangs, a lot of bullying going on. And so, yes, I kept getting beat up in school.Lizzy:        It's like you couldn't escape it.Victor:        Yes. It was like… It was hard.Lizzy:        Is there anything else about your childhood in Mexico that you want to share? Any other favorite memory or a worst experience?Victor:        Yes. I remember one time my parents, they weren't there. They were not at home. And I remember me and my brother got into an argument and so the argument escalated into a fight, right? Plus, since my brother was bigger than me, so he got the best of me, right? And so he beat me up pretty bad to the point that I started bleeding and I started choking on my own blood, right? And so, I thought I was going to die.Lizzy:        How old were you?Victor:        I was like 10 years old. And so, my brother got scared. He got spooked and he let go of me when he seen all that blood. And when he turned around, he started walking away. It seems like I went from being scared to like being shocked when I seen all that blood. I just grabbed a brick. Like, it was like I couldn't help it. I just grabbed a brick that was right next to me and I threw it right at my brother. And so, I hit him in the back of the head and so he started bleeding. And then my grandma came out the room and she saw what was going on and so she beat him up and she beat me up again right after. We were already bleeding both of us and she still beat us up and put us in separate rooms. And so, it was a bad experience, you know, because you're supposed to feel safe at home, right? But, I didn't feel safe at that time. And so, it was really rough. It was real bad.

Joel:        Yeah. It's really hard. It’s… to have a kid here, even now, sometimes you don't have clothes to give her, or when she was little, the diapers and all. When my daughter was born, I was still working as a lumberjack. So I used to win around 1200 pesos a week. So diapers itself were like around almost 300 pesos. Then my rent and the bus. So basically I couldn't do anything. I didn't do anything.Joel:        So it was—I know what it is. I know what it is. Now that I got into this whole industry of English here in Mexico, I really do appreciate it all. Maybe that would be another thing. Maybe that American companies could do more things here in Mexico so us people that know English can get into it a little bit more and make more money, stuff like that, maybe more jobs.Lizzy:        More job opportunities for English speakers, English educated people.Joel:        Exactly, exactly. I mean, that would really help us a lot. A lot.

Lizzy:        Well, I have one last question as we start wrapping up, because I'm thinking about how you have spent almost half and half, like half your life in the US half in Mexico. Do you feel like you're more Mexican or more American or both? Neither?Joel:        I would say both because I mean, I can understand people over there and I can understand people here, I guess that would be the main reason. So I know what it's like being over there. I know how life is and thanks to that, of me being in the US, now, here, I know how to take care of things or how can you say it? I know what things are worth now because things over there were just given to me. Here, I have to earn them, or I have to work really hard to get them, really hard. So it’s… I think the US really helped me a lot in seeing things now that I'm grown in a different way. That's what I want to show my daughter to know what it's worth, the good things.Lizzy:        To appreciate what you have?Joel:        Exactly. Appreciate what you have and appreciate what you're doing, I guess. You might be at the top one day and the next day you might be at the bottom. It's the way life is.

Joel:        There's people in call centers here that have a good education. I mean, I don't know how you say it in English, but I mean, they have a good education. They can be lawyers or something bigger, but at the end of the day, they're there, they're in call centers. They could even be doctors and stuff, but they're here in call centers. Why? Because the jobs are not paying enough or there is no jobs. That's the thing.

Joel:        Yeah. Yeah. That's what people tell me too, even though I would ... Not even with my sister, I never used it when she was here until I got into the call center industry. That's when I started working on it again, again, again, again.Lizzy:        So English has been helpful for you with jobs?Joel:        A lot. A lot. A lot. It's been three years since I got in the call center business and those three years from now, it's where I've gotten to a further… further place, I guess I can say it that way. I was able to pay my own rent. I was able to make my own things. I was able to, uh—my kid, now I have a daughter, I'm able to give her something to eat and stuff.Joel:        But I mean, even though with that, it still has ... I mean, if me or us people that know English can make good money and it's still not even enough, imagine what other people here, or that just have a simpler job, imagine what the life is for them?

Lizzy:        And then what about here in Mexico? Is there anything that you wish had been done to help you and your family integrate back into Mexican society?Joel:        Maybe at least giving us a place to actually live in. I mean, giving us… giving people that don't have anything here, giving them a place they can actually live in so they won't struggle with the rents. I mean, you're going to get here, you're not going to have a job. Your fam—even if you got family here, maybe your family's living well, but some others don't have that opportunity that their family’s living good here, even though they're here in Mexico. Maybe that kind of thing because we struggled a lot with the home thing.Joel:        I mean, we lived with my grandparents and all, but at the end of the day, we were kicked out. We were kicked out. So I would have really appreciated it if somebody would have given us maybe just some place to live. I don't know, just a shelter or something.

Joel:        I guess supporting them. I can't really say what else than supporting. I mean, I see life here and it's like the things they have there, even with the insurance they have for medication, for doctors. I mean, it’s—the quality of the service there is good. It's great even though it's from the government. Here, you get that ... I mean, you can go to a hospital here, even though you're dying, they're not going to even take you into consideration.

Lizzy:        So now you've mentioned maybe wanting to go back to school. You have a wife and a daughter. When you think about your life in Mexico now going forward, what are some of your hopes for your future?Joel:        My hope is…One big hope is getting a house here. Try to buy a house if I can. To give my daughter a better life too. I mean, that would be my main goal. Give my daughter a better life and not do the things or do the mistakes that my dad did. That's one of my biggest, biggest, biggest things. Not doing what my dad did, leaving her alone or not giving her anything or just giving her a better life and giving her a better example and always hoping she sees me as a good father now. I mean, I would love to be able to take her to the states and meet all my family members, see what the life is there, but it is what it is.

Lizzy:        And you told me in the survey that you started working at 13? So going to school and working at 13?Joel:        Yeah, I get here when I—I left the states when I was in middle school, when I got here, so we didn't have any money. So I started working with my grandparents. So that was around maybe 12, 13 years old, I think. I really don't remember exactly, but I started working to give my mom money since my dad wasn’t… he wasn’t making... he wasn't taking charge of us, I guess? That's the way you say it.Joel:        So I had to start working because I wanted to, not because my mom told me to, I did it for myself and from that point on, so I started working, working, working. So I started making my own money too. So school really wasn't in my head that much anymore. So I just started working more.Joel:        Middle school here was a struggle too because that's when I started to work more and more and more. So I made it out of middle school as a miracle because I didn't have that good grades anymore because of the jobs, I started working a lot too.Lizzy:        Did you ever have time to do homework or study?Joel:        I never…No. I had to be at school at seven and I came out of school at three and I was at work from around 3:30 to four. From that point on until 9, 10, or maybe even 11 at night, we were still loading trucks and stuff. That's what I used to do. Load trucks of wood. Like, uh, I don't know how you say it in English. It's basically the wood they need for construction.Lizzy:        Lumber?Joel:        Yeah. Yeah. That kind of thing. So that's what I was dedicated to.Lizzy:        It kind of sounds like you had an adult life almost at that point?Joel:        Yeah. Almost all the people that I know or that know who I am, they always, always said that about me. That as a kid, when I was in middle school, I didn't have that kind of thinking of, "Let's go drink ..." Well, the typical thing here, "Let's go drinking. Let's go ..." I don't know, just have fun. No, I was more about, "I got to work. I got to pay this. I got to pay that. I got to get money here. I got to get money there." So around 14, 15 years old, I wasn't even thinking about having fun, to be honest.

But I mean, for only a few years, we were good and then we were kicked out too.Lizzy:        You were kicked out?Joel:        Yeah. My grandparents, to be honest, kicked us out of their house. So, I mean, we had a house, but it wasn't like in living ... How can you say it? It wasn't a good place to live for a family. It was just a wooden house with a lot of things that had to be fixed and stuff, so. But that was the only place we had to go. We really didn't have that much money when we came back. So my mom took us there and lived there for a lot of years until my dad came back, actually.

Joel:        Not much. When I got it back here in Mexico City, I just remember ... I remember me when I was at the borderline, I didn't want to cross. I was telling my mom, "Don't make us go back. I don't want to go. I just don't want to go. I want to stay here." I even told her to let one of my uncles adopt me or something. I just don't want to go. So everything was different. I mean, the places, I mean, everything is just plain out different. There's no other way to say it. It's just not the same.Lizzy:        What was the hardest challenge about coming back? The safety? The different culture? Or school?Joel:        The safety, school and I guess the economic thing because we didn't have nowhere to go other than my grandparents' home.

Also, here, something that is very, very important or something very dramatic here is ... the uhm, I mean, you can't go outside without keeping in mind that you might get robbed or something, or you might not even come back home and stuff like that. I mean, that's… that’s something real that's going on here in Mexico.Joel:        I mean, in the US, I remember that I used to go out with friends and play out at the playground, no trouble at all. Here you can't do that. You go outside, you see people doing drugs or people just looking to steal things from you and just rob you. So it's an everyday thing.Lizzy:        Do you remember when you came back here as a young teenager, middle school age, at that time, were you aware of the safety issues here?Joel:        I mean, I knew about it, but I didn't know at what point it was until I got here and saw what it really is. I mean, when you get here in school, I mean, it's almost the same thing. You’re always, even with your classroom mates, if you don't know who they are, sometimes they even do things to you too. They will rob you. I got… I actually got robbed once when I was here in middle school. This kid took, uhm… robbed my wallet out of my pocket and stuff like that. So it was kind of harsh too.

Joel:        Yeah. Everything. Everything. Yeah. Financially. Yes. Always. Always. I always felt good there. So on that subject, I mean, I have nothing to say. But when I got here, I mean, we came back because my dad got deported, but my dad wasn't living with us anymore when we got here. Basically my mom is the one that took the decision to come back because even though he got deported, we still stayed in the US for about maybe a year or so without him. But she took the decision to take us—uh, to bring us back.  Lizzy:        Do you know what led to your dad being deported?Joel:        As far as I know, I think that he was drunk driving, something like that in Ohio. But I think that's the reason why. Other than that, I mean, when we got here, we were living without him. I think we still got here and we—I think we still had five years. We lived five years without them still. So it was basically most of my childhood, or half of it, was without him. So I had to work and study at the same time, help my mom and my brothers.

Joel:        Yeah, I was two and a half when I came to the US. I basically started school from pre-kindergarten all the way up to sixth grade. So everything there was so different when I got here. So I mean, even in school, I remember… There you could… Even on the food thing, food thing, I mean, you could eat whatever you wanted. You ate good. You dressed good. You're used to living in a good house.

Sergio:        You feel like you're more American than you're Mexican?Diego        No, I feel Mexican. Over there, I was like Mexican pride, always. I never was racist like, "Oh, you're white. You white ass,” no, never did that. I always treated people equally because I wanted the people to treat me equally. So pretty much I gave out what I wanted, what I expected back. So I feel more Mexican than American because that's what I am. I am a Mexican.

Sergio:        What's your worst memory of the U.S.?Diego        The worst memory was coming back. The worst memory. Feeling harassed by the police. When I come back, I told you when they went to my school, getting harassed there and feeling any moment, I can be a foster kid, because they told us that if we didn't come back, they were going to take my parents to jail and we were going to be in a foster home, me and my brothers and sister. So pretty much that was my... was I afraid of being a foster kid. My family breaking up and all that. That was my worst memory and my fear too.

Over there, I traveled, I had a lot of road trips. I went to Disney, Disneyland and Disney World in California. I went to Universal Studio, I went to Planet Hollywood. I also went to Sea World. In Kentucky, there’s like a aquarium. It's pretty good over there too. I traveled. I knew places over there, and right here, you can't really do that. You need to have real good money, you have a real good work. Not only you and also your family has to do it so that all cannot go out. You’re like cut off on a lot of things.Sergio:        What's your favorite memory of the U.S.?Diego        My favorite memory of the U.S.? I guess, it’s when we had a road trip, all of our family was together and we were going to Florida. Florida beach, Miami beach, and we went on a parachute on a boat and you can see the ocean and all that. Pretty nice, how some places are green, some areas are dark blue, all of that. The view, that's my favorite memory.

Diego        Most of them work here in cleaning services because you don't get jobs here. After 40, nobody wants to hire you here. That's why I want to make something out of it before I'm 40, and pretty much just live out of what I made.Diego        I mean, there's a lot of jobs, but they don't really pay good. That's why nobody wants to work. It's really, really hard work, and they're just going to pay you 500 pesos a week. So, you're going to... That's how much you waste in only transport. Plus you need to eat, then we need to buy stuff for the house. The money just doesn't make it for you. You can do stuff you want to do. You can't go out because you have to waste on something.

Diego        Now that I'm back, my hopes and dreams. Well, I try not to kill them. I try to always have hope and always dream about something. My dream is being my own boss, not working, being 40 and me winning out of someone, not keep on working for somebody. I want someone to work for me. Maybe like buy a department, buy two departments and rent one and get rent from that one, something like that. Something that I would just enjoy my life after 40, not be working here because you can see here, people are in 70, and they're working and then keep on working and working and working.

Sergio:        How was it like, getting and making new friends?Diego        Coming back and making... going in school, it was really different. The school was... It looked like a jail. Actually, jails over there looked better than schools here, pretty much. It looked like a cage, I felt trapped, I didn't really talk to anyone, everybody was just making fun of you. Their friendship style is different from over there, because the education is different. So that changes a lot of a person. They're more rude here. It's like bullying, you can call it bullying, but yeah, friendly? Not friendly though. They do it just for fun here.Sergio:        They do that for fun?Diego        Yeah, they do that for fun. “You're the new boy here.” They throw papers at you like that until you get used to it. Here, they said something to me when I came here. If you don't back them up, they're going to keep on doing it to you. So, if you don't back someone up, you can't go forward. You can't succeed if you don't back someone up. That's the phrase that they gave us here, when we came. Like el que no transa, no avanza. That means... Let's say we're in a race, so if I don't do something to make you slower, I'm not going to win. That's practically what it means. So, if you don't mess with someone, someone's going to mess with you. Or you can just be messed with. Where I live, in the city I live, that's how it is there.

Diego        Yeah. We decided to pack everything and send it back and we came back on the bus and when we got here, it was a change. I went there when I was three, so pretty much I didn't really remember. I didn't have any memories of how it looked here. So, when I came back and entering Tijuana and I started seeing everything different, I was like, "damn." It was a big change for us, for me, I'm speaking for me. It was a big change. Here, there's a lot of violence. Here's a lot of... the friendships aren't really the same. Well, you need to choose them well, and there's not really a good person or a bad person. No, it's just different ways of living. I had no experience here.Sergio:        What was the hardest part after you were back?Diego        Getting used to the way of life here. Getting used to how people treated you here, how it was different, how it was different. I don't know. I think the hardest part was getting used to the way of life, getting used to the new schools here and all of that. Making new friends again and having them get- when I came back, it was the last house I've been in, but it was the one I had more time in. So, yeah the hardest was just getting back to a way of life, pretty much.Sergio:        What did that include?Diego        That included school, work, transport, food, the money, everything. I mean, it includes everything. The parks, everything had changed. It was like a 180 turn, you know?

Diego        I ended up back in Mexico because they gave us a warning that if we didn't leave the country in the month that they were going to deport us, and my parents were going to stay. Actually, they said that they were going to make my parents go to jail, and us, we were going to go to a foster home. So, my parents freaked out, and we had to come back.Sergio:        Who told you this?Diego        The police from over there, his last name was Gonzales. So, he was pretty much Mexican too, and he speaks Spanish. He was just against Mexicans. I don't really know, understand that because some people... some Mexicans grow up there, and they feel they're against us who go there and migrate. So, he's the one who told us that and pretty much my parents freaked out, they didn't want to lose us, and we had to come back and within a month, they told us this in March and on April 13, we had to come back to Mexico.Sergio:        So, what happened? How did they find out that you were undocumented?Diego        How did they find out that I was undocumented? Um, pretty much in those times, if you had a parking ticket or something like that, they would find out. And, for the next time you get a parking ticket or get stopped by a cop or anything, they asked you, they went straight to the point, "I want to see your green card" or something like that. They didn't really... it wasn't like you did something wrong, and then you got checked and reviewed that you didn't have papers. No, it was more like asking for them, "I want to see your green card." "No, we don't have green card." “Oh, well if you don't have any green card, you have to go back in a month or we're going to put you in jail, and your kids are going to go and find a foster home.” Pretty much that's how it happened.Sergio:        Did they tell that to your parents?Diego        Yeah, we were in the car, they stopped the car. We were going on the freeway, they stopped because one of our lights was out. So, they stopped us because of that reason, and they asked my parents for their green card. First, they asked for their ID, they gave him the id and it was all good, but then they just started looking at us and they said, "Wait, let me see your green card or your papers." We all didn't have any, none of us had any. So, they just told us that it was a warning, you have to go back.Diego        They took us all the way to our house, saw where we lived, came in, and then we had two visits. Actually, they went and visited me in school and wanted me to tell them, why did we came or something like that, like a survey. But I think that was illegal because there was no over-aged person and I was pretty much 12 when they did that. 12 or 13 years. So, they forced us to go back, they scared me in school, they told you, that detective there, the one I was telling you about Gonzales.Speaker 3:        What did he say?Diego        Yeah. He was like, "No, if your parents don't go back, you're going to be in a foster home, and you know how foster homes go. They're going to go bad. You're going to end up in the streets. So, I recommend you telling your parents to go back and convince them of going back. This ain't no lie. We're going to look for you. If you move houses, we're going to be there. Everywhere you go, we're going to be, practically."

Sergio:        What did you want to sell?Diego        I wanted to sell food. I lived in Ohio for a year, in Fairfield, and we actually had a restaurant, a Mexican food restaurant there, and it went really good. People loved the food, they loved pretty much everything. Every Saturday we made a dance, a jaripeo or something, a national Mexican dance. So, pretty much we had the entertainment, the good food and everything and I saw that it was giving out really good money. So, actually I did want to always have my own business there.

Sergio:        Did you ever feel that? Did you ever feel-Diego        Well, sometimes, there's always going to be a person who's going to discriminate you for not having any good reason, call you a wetback or something. I got in two fights because of that, because it got so aggressive and their comments got so aggressive that we actually had to fight for that.Sergio:        Two fights?Diego        Yeah. Two fights, calling wetback, beaner all that.

Diego        What do I remember from school? I loved school over there. I was pretty much a straight A student over there. I liked playing sports, they motivated us. A sport I really liked was dodgeball. I love dodgeball. Also baseball.Diego        The schools over there, they're bigger, better, cleaner. They actually educate you, they actually teach you things, you learn stuff. That's pretty much better than the education here in school. My partners, they never had any problem of me being Mexican. No racism. So pretty much I like the... how can I say? el ambiente [environment]. Well, I liked how everything flows, how you can chill, the homework, everything they teach too and you're just glad to go back home.Sergio:        Did you have any best friends or favorite teachers?Diego        Um I remember… my teacher from sixth grade, her name was Miss Ditmer. It was funny because her birthday was on the 29th of February and you know how not every February has 29 days, they only have 28 days. So, we always made fun of her that she only was five years old. My best friend was... since I moved from school to school, I had a couple, but my last one was Anthony ______. Pretty much, went to the gym together. One day we would go to my house to eat when we would go... there was a friendship there, real friendship, not just convenience.

Sergio:        So, what do you remember being your first memory of the U.S.?Diego        My first memory was going to eat in a Pizza Hut. So I was like... and you know how they have a salad bar, and there were peanuts there, but I didn't know how to speak it on English. So, in Spanish peanuts is cacahuate. So, instead of saying peanuts, I said, "Oh, [speaking Spanish in American accent] cacahuates." Instead of trying to speak English, but I don't really know how to speak English. That's my first memory I have from the States.Sergio:        What did the pizza people say?Diego        Well, they didn't really say anything because it was just the family and wherever we were in the salad bar, my family just laughed, "You want to speak English." That's pretty much my first memory then. All that I can remember... the funniest.

Diego        So, what led my family to leave Mexico to the U.S. was the reason of wanting a better life, wanting just... have more security because Mexico... It's dangerous. Where I live, my city I live in, it's a ghetto place so, pretty much you have danger every day. That's what led us to leave here to get a better life.Sergio:        Talk more about that. What do you mean about it? Was there violence?Diego        Yeah, there's a lot of violence, kidnapping, killing people, extortion, all sorts of things. You can see all those kinds of things here. Pretty much more of violence. That's what most let us... my parents with what they thought is that, they wanted a better place for us to grow and know better things.Diego        So pretty much yes for violence. My parents wanted a better place for us to grow, for better education, because education here it's not really that good. They don't really show you things that they're supposed to show you, and they don't really teach other sports to teach you and they charge you for everything here. Over there coffees were free, part of the school... and here coffees, you have to pay one buck for them.

Tim:        Do you feel more American or more Mexican?G1zmo 1503:        I mean, I'm Mexican, man. But I got that American in me because I was raised over there. I won't criticize or judge. Shit, I mean, it's all out. Anybody can fight, you just got to... Damn, you know? Wait till your temperature goes like this, and trust me, you'll go like, "Pow." It's fun too.Tim:        So do you think that the United States shaped who you are today? Like, do you have any qualities that you think are more American than Mexican?G1zmo 1503:        Yeah, why not? Why not, you know? Because the way I grew up, the education that was provided to me within the ________ Schools District area, with their teaching skills and the way they taught me. I mean, I went to school over there, man, and trust me, I haven't forgotten what I learned, because I ain't dumb. But it's just sometimes you're involved in situations that, damn, you know, like, fuck. Like that motherfucker is hard, but damn, we met again and bang, bang, bang. Or you get hit with a test or something you'd like to learn about, you get into it. And I can say that my skill study at that point of view is pretty good.

Tim:        So since you've been back in Mexico, have people treated you differently because they knew you were from America maybe, or spent time in the States and had some tattoos too?G1zmo 1503:        Well, in a way, yeah, because sometimes they... I'm used to speaking both, but I do speak English with certain people, and other people that might be next to us, don't- speak Spanish, they always think we're always talking negative, but it's not always that case, you know? I mean, I'm not even... I mean if somebody's fighting down there and if it's my homie, I'll probably go downstairs. But if I know that it's not my homie, like damn, it's just some cops giving out a ticket or something.

G1zmo 1503:        Well, I'm looking forward to working. I'm also looking into what studies I want to study when I sign up, because I guess the other… Starting from first semester still next year, so I got all this ending part of the year to think about what I want to do.Tim:        You seem like you had a lot of teachers that you liked in the States, and so did you like school a lot? And is that why you're looking to go back?G1zmo 1503:        Yeah, I did. I did enjoy school, man. I've always enjoyed school. But I learned what I learned, and from what I learned, I can say I can do good here. I mean, I'll go back when I'm ready. I'll go back. I'm still going to go back.

G1zmo 1503:        And that's the service I provided within the first year I arrived here in Mexico. And then one of my friends recommended me to TeleTech. I arrived. Throughout the training, I learned it. It was stressful, back to back. And then I moved out to T-Mobile, and T-Mobile is where I was there for like nine months, top 10. But I had some struggles and some issues outside of work that I had to take care of and wouldn't let me stay 100% focused, but I can say that T-Mobile provided me something pretty good, man. T-Mobile was pretty badass. I liked it. Easy money, and I met a lot of people that were pretty cool. Other than that, that's all I've been doing here in Mexico.

Tim:        And so what did you do when you got back to Mexico City?G1zmo 1503:        Well, I stayed with my father for a couple of months. We didn't really relate to each other, bumped heads. But he's old, so he likes being alone, and I can understand that. My brother tried to help me out too, but I started learning how to be here and I started moving apart. Once I learn, I do it myself.Tim:        And is some of your family still in the States?G1zmo 1503:        Yeah, just my mom, my daughter, and that's it.Tim:        You have a daughter there?G1zmo 1503:        My brother... Two brothers.Tim:        Do they have their papers or no?G1zmo 1503:        Yeah, they do. Yeah, they're citizens. But I don't bother them, they're doing their thing over there.

Tim:        And so how did you end up back in Mexico? Can you tell me a little bit about what happened? Did you come back voluntarily or were you detained and deported?G1zmo 1503:        I got deported. I tried to fight my case, but I was still denied. And I was removed out of that complex on the 12th of April, 2015. And I was dropped off in Laredo. Puente 1, or how would you say it in English? Like the cross border something?Tim:        The border?G1zmo 1503:        Bridge.Tim:        Oh, the bridge.G1zmo 1503:        The bridge, yeah. Bridge number one.Tim:        And so you were deported, and then you came back straight to Mexico City? Or did you stop in Tijuana?G1zmo 1503:        No, I was straight back. It was like 18 hours, 17 hours in a bus that was driven out like at three in the midnight.Tim:        Wow. So you ended up back here?

Tim:        Were you ever involved in any gangs or anything?G1zmo 1503:        In the southern, yeah, in the southern area, I was. I had a lot of friends that were involved in gang-related things. But that's cool. Or I don't know, it's like how a person sees it, you know? Or how you see it or how you relate to it.Tim:        You said you were a little involved in gangs, did you feel like you had a choice to join or not to join or whatever?G1zmo 1503:        Nah, it was something that I liked.Tim:        Did it just kind of happen?G1zmo 1503:        Yeah, just happened. But I mean, you learn from your mistakes. I have. I still will. And if I can fix them, I will. But it's something that I chose, and there's no one that can catch up to me, you know?

Tim:        And what were your friends like in school? Did you have a big group of friends? Were they mostly from Mexico?  G1zmo 1503:        They were from many different places. Puerto Rico. I met a lot of people from Florida, Texas, Mexico, Honduras. I mean, I met a lot of people, man. But it's cool because I like meeting different stages of mind. Not mind of how I would judge a person, but you know how I would, you know, communicate and relate in between... You know, like right now, me and you are conversating and stuff.

Tim:        So did you have any jobs in the US? Or...G1zmo 1503:        I did. I was a dishwasher, a busboy, and a janitor in big buildings like those. I would just bag out the trash, and I'd do things like that. A busboy, and private security, man, for one party in Austin. Those kids went heavy [chuckles], but it was cool. I mean, it was them.

Tim:        And do you remember school?G1zmo 1503:        Yeah, I do. I do remember school. It was pretty cool. I mean, I had a lot of childhood friends in the neighborhood. And I had some other issues. Well, not issues, but other decisions and other ways, and I moved out. You know? Chose a different route.Tim:        Do you remember any specific teachers in school that you really liked?G1zmo 1503:        I do. I can say I had a pretty awesome history teacher. I had a cool wood shop teacher… even though he was always out there pushing his students. I mean, I still remember a lot. You know? I had a good time when I grew up out there.Tim:        Do you have any really good stories or memories from any of these teachers?G1zmo 1503:        Camping. Well, science camping. That was provided to the sixth grade throughout that time. Pretty cool trip.Tim:        What did you do on that trip?G1zmo 1503:        We learned how the outdoors worked, like how you... When you see like a snake or a bear or whatever. Or how to come into an act or a play with a group and perform a play in the stage. We met a lot of personalities, a lot of people. It was cool, man.

Tim:        Alright. So, do you know how old you were when you went to the United States?G1zmo 1503:        I was five years old.Tim:        You were five years old?G1zmo 1503:        Yeah.Tim:        And you went with your parents?G1zmo 1503:        Oldest brother and my mother.Tim:        Do you remember crossing the border? What it was like?G1zmo 1503:        Well, I remember like some flashbacks, but my mom is the one that knows the actual story on how we crossed. But I mean, it was cool. I mean, we made it.

Isabel:        Yeah, absolutely. Before we wrap up, I just have some quick reflection question that my professor is like, make sure you ask them… Do you consider yourself more Mexican or American? Like the United States American.Jose:        Mexican.Isabel:        Mexican?Jose:        Yeah.Isabel:        And is that just because you were born here or do you just feel more comfortable?Jose:        I feel more comfortable.

Isabel:        Okay. So you had Spanish from your childhood when you were able to integrate pretty well. You said you had a hard time landing, a job. Why do you think that was?Jose:        Probably because of my tattoo.Isabel:        Kind of like the stereotypes that go along with it?Jose:        Yeah. They judge you, right away.Isabel:        Yeah.Jose:        They think that they're going to get robbed.Isabel:        Yeah, I think that's a really common experience that we've heard too, which is that a lot of people who want to have a second chance or try again and get a job don't really have the opportunity because of the...Jose:        Because of the other people that have messed it up for the rest, I guess.Isabel:        Right. You mentioned that you felt more targeted or vulnerable as a returning migrant, with your English. Because sometimes, maybe the way you present yourself. Do you have maybe a first memory or experience of that kind of experience in Mexico?Jose:        People can notice right away, because of my accent, how I dress, my style I have is different.Isabel:        Like what I'm used to but, I'm with you.Jose:        It's different to them, and to us it's worth nothing. They're different to us.

Isabel:        Yeah. Could you tell me a bit about like what led to your deportation?Jose:        The gang getting in trouble with the law, getting charges.Isabel:        Yeah. What did the lawyers advise you or lawyer advise you to do?Jose:        They have actually been too trusting. They told me at first to leave the town. Said "get new friends". Since I didn't behave, they just told me to do my time and get deported.Isabel:        Kind of take the deal?Jose:        Yeah.

Isabel:        You mentioned that you were in county. Was this when you were affiliated with the gang, you mentioned that in the survey?Jose:        Yeah.Isabel:        Did your mom know that you were, is that why she was surprised or...Jose:        No, my mom never knew I was in a gang.Isabel:        Oh. I mean, how were you able to keep that separate? I feel like that's kind of difficult, right? Or maybe I'm wrong. You can tell me.Jose:        Well, not really because I was just behaving in the house. She would tell me, "be like another person" I guess.Isabel:        Yeah.Jose:        Around my family, I'll try to avoid all that.Isabel:        Yeah. One of the things that one of our professors is kind of researching and trying to figure out is this trend of young migrants, especially undocumented migrants, who maybe are under a different experience with the system, being targeted by the police and stuff, why they may end up joining or being affiliated with gangs. What factors kind of moved you towards being affiliated with gangs? If you could reflect on that, it's kind of a big question.Jose:        I really can't explain it. You sometimes feel safer I think.Isabel:        Yes.Jose:        Because people fear you, and some people take that as an advantage. So, I don't know.Isabel:        Yeah. I mean, we've talked to other people as well who have said a lot of times "once I was affiliated with a group like a gang, I was going to be treated that way." So it's better to be a part of it and have them have your backs so that you can be safe in that.Jose:        You feel protected.Isabel:        Yeah.Jose:        In some ways, as well, you feel threatened of your life because of the rival gangs.Isabel:        Right, so it's kind of like...Jose:        So it's you know, like good and bad.

Isabel:        Nice. And you mentioned you have, was it a little sister?Jose:        Yeah.Isabel:        Who was a US citizen? What's she like, what's your relationship with her?Jose:        I really don't have that much of a close relationship with her. I really don't talk to her.Isabel:        Who do you keep in touch with? Anyone back in the States right now, or?Jose:        My mom?Isabel:        Yeah, your mom?Jose:        Yeah. My mom and my older brother. That's about it.Isabel:        What's your mom like?Jose:        My mom, she's a typical Mexican mom.Isabel:        What does that mean?Jose:        She's always telling me to behave and all that, to get a job [laughs] and stuff.Isabel:        Do you feel like you listened to her when you were younger or not really? Why's that?Jose:        I don't know. She always told me to behave and I just did the opposite I guess.

Jose:        I had few friends. They were all baseball kids [inaudible 00:01:41]. And later on, I met my [inaudible 00:01:46] friends.Isabel:        Okay.Jose:        But, yeah.Isabel:        Did you play baseball all the way through high school?Jose:        Yeah.

What your friends were like? What did you like to do when you were younger?Jose:        I liked to play baseball, I just liked PlayStation.Isabel:        Yeah, yeah. Like your normal kids stuff?Jose:        Yeah.

Did you know or how old were you when you found out that you were undocumented? Or did you not know? Or how did that happen?Jose:        I never knew until I grew up I guess.Isabel:        Until like high school?Jose:        Probably, yeah. High school.

Carlos:        I don't know. I feel like I've learned more throughout the process of everything that happened to me, rather than what I learned there. I was so closed-minded when I was in the States. I was just a kid and I definitely don't think the way I think now. Before, I knew there was a lot of discrimination, but really, the topic was gender. Not gender, but race. Everybody's hating on Mexicans. My mind was just that. Everybody's just going to hate and hate and hate Mexicans. Now, it's a whole other way of thinking. Now I'm just like, oh, there's hate. There's not just hate on Mexicans. There's discrimination on anybody. Before, I was just so ignorant on that. I guess that's what you would call it. I was ignorant. I thought about myself. I thought I was badass for knowing how to play a lot of instruments or knowing how to do this or that, whatever. I feel like all of that movement and all that transition helped me learn more about to think about others rather than myself.Claudia:        And do you consider yourself Mexican or American?Carlos:        Mexican.

Claudia:        And what was it like to be back in Mexico?Carlos:        It was scary. There was a lot of soldiers. I didn't want to go out. My cousin would be like, "Let's go here, let's go there." And I'd be like, "No, I'd rather not." Or, "Let's walk to my aunt's house." And I'd be like, "No, let's call her so she can come pick us up." I would call her, and they would come pick us up too, but finally I would go out more. I started walking out and stuff. A month later I got a job and that's when I started going to the job by myself. I don't know, it was still eight months before I got used to it completely, but yeah, it would be scary.Claudia:        And what's been the hardest part about being back here?Carlos:        Probably that I don't really know anybody. My family, I met them, and I knew them for eight months before I came to Mexico City. I left when I was five, so I don't really know anybody. I was just with a bunch of people that are my relatives that I really don't know.

Claudia:        And how was your return to Mexico?Carlos:        Oh, man. We were in a room for seven hours getting processed, getting all our data and stuff. Finally, we got in the line, they gave us all our stuff back that they had for the past... Well, mine, they had for the past three years, and then they were giving everybody else's stuff back. Your family could send you a suitcase, if you wanted, but I didn't even want anything. Finally, we got on the bus, and inside the bus, we got shackled too. Shackled to our stomachs, and then shackled to our feet and shackled to the person in front of us. We were all walking in a straight line, going into the bus and then the bus, it left to the airport. It was a 40 minute drive. Finally, we got to the airport and they had just one plane and we had to get in the plane, and we went inside the plane, shackled again, and the whole plane ride, we were just handcuffed everywhere.Carlos:        You had to still put your seatbelt on and everything, shackled. They gave you food to eat and you had to kind of duck down to eat it, because your hands were stuck to your stomach. And then when we got to Texas, we got on another bus, the same, and that one was really, really hot, because it was already Texas. The border with Matamoros, and we drove on that bus for 40 minutes. No, not even 40 minutes, 30 minutes, and that's when we got to the frontera [border] to Matamoros, Tamaulipas, and they uncuffed us. We were still in Texas, but they made us walk across the bridge.Claudia:        How was that?Carlos:        It was pretty good. It was just 10 minutes, 10 minute walk. It was pretty busy. There was a lot of cars going in. Yeah, it was pretty interesting. Then I seen the soldiers, the immigration soldiers or whatever, the ayuda [help]. That's when I asked them, I was like, "Where am I?"

Carlos:        And I was like, "Oh yeah, that sounds cool." They were going to expand my trial, I guess, for a minute, but then when I went to probation and they were like, "Yeah, we're going to take you, because you were being trialed, not because you've been..." So they got me just because I was involved in it. You know what I mean? Because I hadn't gotten convicted yet. They took me in a van for eight hours, handcuffed with five other people in the van. We went to South Carolina and then we went to pick up more people, I guess. And then we went to somewhere in South Carolina, between South Carolina and North Carolina, to get processed.Carlos:        We got out and then we got on a bus, and inside that bus, we got sent to some holding facility, where we were there for two weeks and we couldn't buy food. The food there had no salt, and it was blobs of stuff. I didn't even know what I was eating. Most of the time I didn't eat. It was just bunk beds. It was a bunch of bunk beds, 24 bunk beds in one 20 by 20 room. And then everybody slept in an open room. There was TVs with no volume. You couldn't do anything. There was nothing. You couldn't buy your own food, so you had to eat their food.Claudia:        There was no commissary?Carlos:        No, because it was just a holding facility. It was just like where you get processed. And then finally, you just have to hope you go on the next bus, because on Tuesdays and Thursdays where the buses that went to the actual immigration jail. Every time, you just hope you were the next person. I was there for two weeks and then they were like, "Come on, it's your turn." I was finally out of there. I was so glad. And if you had an injury or something, you have to be in a room by yourself for those two weeks, eating that food. Just in a small, 10 by 10 room. Nothing to do. That was horrible. I'm glad I wasn't sick or anything. They did the TB things, and if you went positive for TB, they would also put you in those rooms.Carlos:        Finally, on the second week, I left on the bus and it started snowing. It was snowing and we were all in the bus and it was an old bus. There was no AC. We were on there for about 13 hours, handcuffed to our stomachs, handcuffs to our feet and our hands were handcuffed to our stomach too. We were just waiting to get there. Then there was a bunch of traffic, because it was like a crash or something, and it was snowing even more. It was hot and you would open the windows and it would be cold. You didn't know what to do.Carlos:        Finally, we got to the immigration jail, and it wasn't that bad there. The only thing that was bad there was the COs, which were really racist, but other than that, the jail had TVs, they had movies you could watch. They had a lot of different kinds of food. They had sodas. It was very different. After two years-and-a-half of eating not what I wanted, finally, I get there and I'm like, "Okay, this is way better than even County jail food," because County jail food was expensive, and they only had a list like this. When I got there, I was like, “Oh, there's a lot on here.” There was Coke, Sprite, there was the Cup O’ Noodles or just the packets. There was actual subs on there, or hamburgers you could buy. There was microwaves, there was ice, an ice machine, and they would fill it up every day and you could grab ice whenever you wanted. It was pretty cool.Carlos:        There was a yard. You could go outside and play soccer or basketball. I was there for a month, another month, and then I went in front of the judge and that's where my mom, she went to visit me, because from South Carolina, we went to Georgia, which was—like in the middle of Georgia and Alabama, we were on the border.

Claudia:        Tell me about your deportation and what happened. And about the pretrial, all of that, leading up to ICE.Carlos:        I had a very big problem where I was being accused of something.Claudia:        Of what?Carlos:        I'd rather not say, but I was in jail because of that. It was going towards my way, the case, and a lawyer was charging me $20,000 and I didn't have $20,000. I just got a public defender, and the public defender was like, "Yeah, come on, just hang in there." I wouldn't hear nothing from him for a whole month, and then my court date would come up. I had a court date every month, but every time I wouldn't go. They would never take me. I guess it would just be continued. Then it kept getting continued. It went on like that for about 11 months and then... No, more than 11 months. I think I spent two birthdays in jail. Yeah, it was 15 months that I was in County, and then I went to court and that time I was scared, because they were like, "Yeah, I couldn't do nothing for you." My lawyer, he was like, "I couldn't do nothing for you. You're going to have to go to prison. It's going to be maximum two years-and-a-half," more than I'd already been there.Carlos:        I was like, "Oh, well, that doesn't sound like a good idea. I'm not going to sign that."Carlos:        He was like, "Yeah, but if you don't sign it, you can get up to five years. That's your plea."Carlos:        And I was like, "No, I'm not going to sign that."Carlos:        And he said, "Okay, well, let me go tell the lawyer and then see if we can get you a sentence." And then he left and he came back and he's like, "I got it continued for a week."Carlos:        And then I was like, "Okay, but why? You could have just done it now."Carlos:        And he was like, "No, we're going to see if we get a better judge next week, or maybe he'll be in a happier mood."Carlos:        "Okay, whatever." And that same day, pretrial came and they were like, "Hey, listen, we seen your folder and we've seen..." And it was three people. It was us, me and this other guy, which was two Mexicans, and a white guy. Somehow, all of a sudden, the one that is guilty of everything, that was guilty of everything, ended up getting out of jail. I don't know what happened to him, but he got out five months before we did, in which we didn't do nothing.Claudia:        Yeah, why did they think that it was you guys?Carlos:        They had a video of everything.Claudia:        What'd it show?Carlos:        The guy was clearly the responsible one with everything. Clearly, we had nothing.Claudia:        Were you present when that thing, when the thing that happened, happened?Carlos:        Yes.Claudia:        But it wasn't you.Carlos:        Yeah. But then pretrial came and they're like, "We've seen everything. We have your statements. We have the victim's statements." The victim was talking for me. He was for me. He was telling them, he went up to the court and told the judge... Well, the lady did, her mom, "Yeah, they're cool. They had nothing to do with it." And then-Claudia:        Was it a sexual assault case?Carlos:        No, not a sexual assault. It was just assault.Claudia:        Just a violence?Carlos:        Yeah

I didn't go, and that's when I started working. I would work at restaurants. I had a job at Subway, where the dude was really cool, my manager. Then my manager left, he went to another store and I was like, "Okay, well, I'm not making enough money here. I need more money."Carlos:        My mom found me a job at a restaurant, and she was like, "You should go look at it. Take a look at it. It's pretty good." I went and then they were like, "Yeah, we work Monday through Saturday, from 3:00 PM to 3:00 AM. You're going to get paid $11. Nobody here is legal." And because of that, because I had a worker's permit, I actually got paid almost the same as the chefs did. The chefs was $13 a hour, because they didn't have any legal documents. That was kind of unfair, but I took it. I was like, "Yeah, I'll come in." I was doing the dish washing, and then I was working on the grills on Fridays. That's when I started growing in that restaurant. And then the manager became an alcoholic. He was an alcoholic, but he wanted to stop drinking, so everything would bug him.Carlos:        He would make me double wash stuff, just because I wouldn't let them dry. I wouldn't let it dry out and he'd be like, "Yeah, it's going to be wet." Then finally, he got rid of me. He fired me, because I talked back to him one time and then I was like, "Okay, well, whatever." I left and then after that was when I got locked up and then I went to the work program, where I had to work for a year without getting paid. That's when I worked many different jobs. I did landscaping. I worked in the kitchen, dish washing. I went to go build some fences for this big park in Asheville, North Carolina. It's for whitewater rafting.Carlos:        It was actually fun, because we actually got to go on the rafts, an hour ride or whatever. So that was not that bad, but the one I did the most was a factory where I worked from 3:00PM to 2:00 in the morning, and I worked Monday through Saturday, and then I had to leave the house, because it was a big house. It was a halfway house, and then they would take us to the job sites. We would have to be on the van two hours before we started working. And then we would get home an hour later, so I would get home at four in the morning, and then I would leave the house at 12 to go work. They gave me like a little sandwich bag. It was horrible. Then, after that, I was only out for a week, before I got deported.

Carlos:        Yeah, I was going to school, but I felt like school wasn't really for me. I didn't like it. I would do good in it. I just wouldn't like it. If I wouldn't like it, once I wouldn't have motivation, later on, finally my last year, I would just not go for a week. I wouldn’t go.Claudia:        Why didn't you like it?Carlos:        I don't know. I just felt like it was too mainstream, I guess. I felt like I didn't need that. I knew how to play eight instruments. I was 16 years old, 17, I could do a little bit of, like, computer work. I don’t know, it wasn't really for me. Once I got to the junior whatever, I was already tired of it and then I went to a school that was just a bunch of white people and it was really redneck.

Claudia:        And you said that your mom applied for political asylum?Carlos:        Well, later on, way later, she got married and my little brother was born and then she suffered through abuse again. She called the cops, and they came and took the guy, the guy went to jail. We didn't know nothing and then people from the rape centers, they came, and they questioned my mom. They were like, "Hey, don't be scared. We got the statements from the cops. We're concerned for you and we know this and that happened. We can help you."Carlos:        And then mom was like, "Okay, I guess." But we didn't have no papers, so we were scared. My mom was scared. She didn't want to call the cops. Then they started helping her and they did studies and then seen wherever she was groped. That's when they were like, "Yeah, we can help you. If you can write a statement or say that this happened to you, we can help you legally and this and that."Carlos:        And my mom was like, "Oh, well, I guess." She thought it was a trick or something. She was like, "I guess." She was doing the process and they were like, "Yeah, send this in and send that in." And then she got a lawyer and then she talked to a lawyer and the lawyer was like, "Yeah, we can definitely help you out, get some type of working document so you can start working, since you're no longer married, and because of that reason, because you got assaulted." And then that's where the whole process started. Eight years later, it was finally when my mom got the visa, just the working permit and the visa. Five years later, she got the residence card. Because my dad was here and we didn't talk with him, I didn't know him, nothing, I needed to get a signed paper from him so I could get whatever papers that I needed. He wouldn't sign them. My mom wouldn't talk to him and so I think I just got the worker's permit for a while. That's how she applied, and my little brother was born there so he's legal.

My uncle was in the States at this time, so he was like, "Come over here. What are you doing over there?" He sent us money. He was the one that helped us, and then finally mom said, "Okay. We'll go." So then we went and then in Texas, I think, or Arizona, I don't even know where, but we went, and we were waiting for him and he wouldn't pick up the phone and we were there for an hour or two hours.Carlos:        I was like five years old, so I was crying, and I was hungry, thirsty, needed to use the restroom. And then this guy was like, "Hey." My mom was about to leave. We were about to go back to Mexico, to Matamoros, and this guy was like, "Hey." He seen that she was going to buy the tickets for Mexico and then he was like, "Hey, you shouldn't go back. It sucks over there. Not many people get the opportunity to come over here like that, with papers and stuff." And then he was helping us out. That's when I was like, "I'm hungry." And then he was like, "Come on, I have an extra room." He gave me some cookies. We went and then finally, that same night, my uncle answered, and we were there and then my uncle bought the ticket for her to go and then we left

Carlos:        Well, my real dad, he would hit my mom a lot. He was a drunk. My mom was 18 years old, 19. I don't remember, but she was young, so he would take advantage, and then he would hit her, abuse her, and my mom was tired of it. She got a house here, kind of like a habitat or a section A over there, which she did all the work for, the community hours and all that. He wouldn't like that, and he would get mad at her and tell her not to go anymore and prohibit her from going to the meetings or finishing her stuff for the house. Once she finally had the house, she was too young to actually sign to have the house, so he signed it, and then he kept the house.Carlos:        That's when my mom was like, "F that. We're leaving." Then the next day, well, actually that whole week, my mom tried to get a visa for us, and she managed to get it. My uncle was in the States at this time, so he was like, "Come over here. What are you doing over there?" He sent us money. He was the one that helped us, and then finally mom said, "Okay. We'll go." So then we went and then in Texas, I think, or Arizona, I don't even know where, but we went, and we were waiting for him and he wouldn't pick up the phone and we were there for an hour or two hours.

Isabel:        Yeah. No, that's really interesting. You said you were born in Mexico, you grew up until you were in elementary school and came to the U.S. And then you chose to go back to Mexico, but then you think you'll eventually end up back in the U.S. to study and probably live a life in between the two? Is kind of what I seem to be getting. Do you feel like you are more, like in your soul, more of Mexico or more of the United States?Miguel:        To be honest, I feel more Mexican. The people from the States, they know what they want. And they like to be organized. Mostly people, like I said, from New York. They told me, "You know what? You need to go pay your bills. You need to do exercise. You need to do this and this and that." So actually I used to start to learn martial arts. So actually I just came from my trainer. That's why I got my like [references outfit]. That's why I realized, when I get here, I need something to keep in discipline. That's what I took from the States. That skill. This is missing here in Mexico. I been disciplined, focused on something. So that's what I learned from there, and I just keep it here.

I realized like, "No, here in Mexican, you can do it as well." Actually, here, the thing is a bunch of words, because the English, because when I got here, my Spanish was really bad. I needed to practice a lot. So it was the first problem. The second was the mindset of Mexicans. Like I said, I was there in the States, the Mexicans are used to start helping each other. Like here in Mexico, it's not like that.Miguel:        The people is, like I say, cheating on you or always trying to get an advantage of you or because you got money, they're saying they're your friends. What I needed to realize when my friend told me, "Don't trust anybody, not even yourself. First you, second you, and third you. Don't trust anybody, even yourself." So that's why when I came from Mexico, I realized you need to take a look and really watch what is the other intention of the person. Actually, when I fell in love here once, I realized once like, "Oh, my god. The girls really like to play with guys," because they take advantage. So I had realized like, yeah, first it's self love and then you can share love with someone else

Miguel:        Yeah. Because like I said, this guy learned that wasn't my family. One of them was kind of my uncle, told me like, "Hey, if your son go to the parties and that stuff, what did your father didn't want for you. So you just go to Mexico, right to your place and do whatever you want.” And it's like, "Okay, that's what I want. That's what I'm going to do." So I just take my ticket and go back to Mexico. And I went here like, "Oh, my god, what I did?" I was like, "Oh, my god. I lost a big opportunity to grow up."

Isabel:        So, just from like your outside perspective, like observing it. One of our professors is really interested in the trends of undocumented youth, especially going into gangs, or being affiliated with gangs. What do you think are the factors that kind of drive a young person to become involved in gangs and enter that sort of cycle?Miguel:        Yeah because they know they have money. They have money even if they're not working because they're selling weed. Because other people say like, "Where do these people even enter my country, United States, if you're getting drugs." Because you're the consumer, because you're my client. Because if you want drugs, I got the drugs. You want weed, I got the weed. You want the coke, I got the coke. So you're the consumer in the States, so your people is buying my stuff. So, okay. What is the problem? If the public's already changed, right now it's legal, and you can get it for recreation. But in that time, it was like they're interested in it because you got money. The girls looking at you because like white girls, they like that.Miguel:        People here in Mexico, I don't understand. Like, "You know what? I got a problem. I like cholos a lot." And it's like, "Girl, take care of yourself. Be safe first." Because I always, I been trying to be romantic. My friends told me it's because you're so courtesy, because you're sort of romantic and the people is not looking for that. They're looking for money or power or color tattoos and that stuff, it could be in jail. I don't know. And just was like, "No, I'm not like that. I'm sorry girl." I'm sorry.

And then you mentioned earlier this dynamic of knowing people who are in gangs in California, in Chicano communities where you were. And you were drawn to that for the culture, but then your family protected you. Do you mind explaining when you first got interested and kind of what kept you out of it?Miguel:        Exactly. Because I was like, "You know what? I want to go over there, take a ride with the homies and stuff."Isabel:        So were you friends with them already? Or like, how did that happen?Miguel:        Yeah. At the beginning it was my interest, it was about the outfit, how it looks like, with the hats.Isabel:        The style?Miguel:        Yeah, the style. And I really liked the music and everything. But my grandfather told me, "No, no, you cannot go over there because if you start doing that, then when you're going to grow older, or you're going to go to the parties, you're going to start, you know, interested in drugs or something like that." So that's why I just read it from the outside. I used to take pictures of that. Actually, I got a collection of those pictures in the '90s. It was really, really cool.Isabel:        Did you ever actually hang out with them or was it more from afar?Miguel:        No. More like kind of far. Yeah. Always good distance. Because my grandfather told me like, "No, I don't want to let you go over there with them because I know somehow they're going to recruit you to go to the gang,” and that’s tough because that's why, because you're Hispanic. Actually, there's like, "Okay, if you're Mexican, you're going to stay here in California, you will follow the line." And then they will start, like I say, doing drugs, or then it's going guns. But for me it was like, "Okay, I'm considered from the outside." I kind of learned from that, from the outside. But it's not what I want for my life. To be honest, yes, I was interested to get to a party and the stuff, but I have other plans, you know?

Miguel:        In my childhood, I remember the first cameras, like the Super 8, and used to film the grass, or, you know, there was a little girl over there, just filming her. And not like as a stalker, because for me, beauty is even in humans, and as well as in a woman. Because for me, woman is a representation of the muse. There is like Carl Jung, who is a psychologist. Say, "Okay, the human has this archetypes or these things, like they're consciousness like behaviors." We can show it as a muse or as the wise. So for me, I used what was following the muse. Actually I went up to her, like a girl, like talking to me and to her. It says poetry here, right? [referencing a tattoo that says “poetry” behind his ear] Because ever since I was kid, I fall in love with the Spanish, with the Spanish writers. In English and [inaudible 00:05:56], but poetry in the Arabic, [inaudible 00:05:59] I got in the ear. In poetry in the ear. . It was my first film, short film. Yeah. That's why I always fall in love with arts.

Miguel:        Yeah. The school, yeah, because I'm white, I want to sound like I'm as a good as whites, so that people aren't going to realize I was Mexican. They'll say like maybe, “Yeah, because he’s American." Right now I say I’m Mexican, I'm proud of that. But yeah, I got friends, most likely they were Hispanic, because all the neighbors in my neighborhood. And at the school, yeah. At least I talk with everybody. I'm being that kind of person. Like, I will pay mine, and if you need something you can count on me and I’ll help you out. I got your back. So that's why I always, always, because while my grandfather told me as well, "You know what? Everybody that needs help, you will need help someday. So you need to receive back. You need to give it and then you can get it back."Isabel:        Do you feel like that's specific to your grandfather? You feel that's an American value or if it's a Mexican value? Where do you think that comes from?Miguel:        No, I think it was from my father, my grandfather, he was Mexican, like I said. I think it was most likely like Mexican culture, because here you can see the families living together. Even if you have more than 30 years old, they still together. And then in the States, it's like, "No. You know what? You have your job, so get out of here."Isabel:        More independent.Miguel:        Yeah, exactly. Here in Mexico it’s not like that. So that's why I prefer just... Actually, it's not long time since I've been living alone. So I realized I really got somewhere for my things, and I don't want anyone to tell me what to do. That's why when I get back to back to Mexico, and that's why I just left my grandma's house, and I started living by myself.

Isabel:        Yeah. So since you mentioned you came to the U.S. a little bit older, so it was probably slightly more difficult to pick up English then someone who was brought over when they were a couple months old. Were you a part of an English as a Second Language? Any program like that, to help you learn English or no?Miguel:        No, actually, no. Just I went to school and you're starting to doing it because every day you're listening English and stuff, so that's why you get it. But I wish to be there before, like five, three years old. Because I got friends like that. Their first language was English and then Spanish. So that's why I realized it was not perfect and all. I'm still doing mistakes right now, even if I've been there 10 years, but simply not a lot of mistakes. I mean, I started speaking every day, but that was because I would study. I was like, If I ever finish my high school and then I’d be doing university. So now you've got to realize, my English could be better. But as well, I want to improve it.

Miguel:        When I got there, like I said, before I was seven years old, and I realized why, why they took me out of my place because my mom, my sisters, everybody came from Mexico. And for some reason my grandma sent me to the States. And when I was on the border, I remember I was in a car. It was the cops and the policemen at the border, it was with their flashlights aimed to my head. And I realized like, "What's happening?" I didn't understand what was happening, I was a kid. When I go in there I realized, like I said, in California, there's a large Hispanic community. So I was received like warm. I was feeling warm. But, obviously was like saying to my grandfather, "You know what? I want to go back to Mexico. I miss my mom, I don't feel better here, I don't know what the people are saying." Because I didn't speak English.

Claudia:        But in terms of migrants who are returning to Mexico, what do you think that the Mexican government can do to help them reintegrate into Mexican society?Victor:        A lot of people that are currently in the States and get deported, they really don't have nothing here. Like at all. So I think shelter, food, just transportation, or maybe just, I don't know. Pinpoints to where to get hired, I think that would be a big bonus for the Mexican government just to help out a little, because it is hard. It is hard to get adapted over here and especially when-. My mom had a house here, but some people don't have anything. So yeah, I think that would be it.

Claudia:        And so I guess now that you're back here in Mexico, what do you think that you'll do? What are your dreams from here on out?Victor:        My dreams... Doesn't matter what it is? It doesn't matter what it is, no?Claudia:        No. Yeah, no it doesn't matter.Victor:        Being a famous artist.Claudia:        Really?Victor:        Yeah.Claudia:        Why?Victor:        That's just my goal since five years ago.Claudia:        Artist? What do you want to do?Victor:        Like what genre, or?Claudia:        Yeah.Victor:        Yeah? I mean, I do pop, RNB, trap, things like that. Yeah.Claudia:        So you'd like to sing?Victor:        Yeah, just pretty much sing. My biggest dream would be a featuring with Drake, but yeah, that's too big.Claudia:        No. If you can dream it, you can definitely get there, I think.Victor:        Yeah.Claudia:        That's awesome. And so, do you mostly do it in English or in Spanish?Victor:        Mostly Spanish. I do have a few songs in English though. Yeah.Claudia:        Cool. And so what do you love most about doing that and why would you that to be your biggest goal?Victor:        My biggest goal, because… I mean, it's pretty much just like a passion and being able to win a lot of money because of that passion and being able to give everything that maybe one day my mom gave me, back to her, that'd be my biggest dream. Yeah.Claudia:        So this may be a stupid question, but what do you sing about or is it just like you mentioned, freestyle? Does it just come to you, or is there a theme? What do you like to sing about the most?Victor:        Pretty much a sad boy.Claudia:        Sad boy?Victor:        Yeah. Pretty much a broken heart. Yeah. Yeah. That's what comes out.Claudia:        Honestly… it's necessary sometimes.Victor:        Yeah. I mean, everybody's sad nowadays, you know?Claudia:        Yeah.Victor:        So, I mean, here you go, cry. Yeah.Claudia:        Honestly, thank you. Do you have a SoundCloud or something like that?Victor:        On YouTube.Claudia:        On YouTube?Victor:        Yeah. It's No Mood.Claudia:        No Mood?Victor:        Yeah.Claudia:        I'll definitely check it.Victor:        Yeah, space in every letter.Claudia:        Space in every letter? That's cool. Have you released any music or any music videos or mostly just videos of you just singing?Victor:        No, it's just a cover art and yeah, just the songs. I have two songs there, so I think you'll enjoy them.

Claudia:        Yeah. And I guess, do you consider yourself Mexican or American?Victor:        I'm Mexican, a hundred percent. Yeah.

Victor:        Yeah, I mean, I've been working at call centers, which is with English and not high school, it's pretty much the best paid job you can possibly get, unless you go to a tourist zone. But call centers… I used to freestyle on public transport. Yeah. And yeah, pretty much. Yeah.Claudia:        Nice. What was your favorite thing about free styling?Victor:        The liberty, just the freedom of just being to do whatever you want and making people smile, I think. Even though in Mexico city everybody's stressed, so, it's hard to make people smile, but yeah.Claudia:        Really?Victor:        Yeah.Claudia:        Well, I've only been here three days, so why are people stressed?Victor:        Well, I mean, do you notice the difference in... for example, my hometown is in Veracruz. It's like a... So over there everybody's chill and everybody's laid back. They have, like I don't know, It's really a different, and here everybody's working and everybody's in Metro or buses and everybody's going fast. They just live faster, I think. And I think it's more stress in this city. Yeah.

Victor:        It was hard. I mean, it was difficult. First of all after a few months, maybe a year of staying here, money goes by fast. So it was difficult for my mom just to being used to winning a lot amount of money to winning a small wage here. And well, I had to get used to it also, because over there we had everything again and well, it was difficult adapting here, most of all because of the lifestyle. Yeah.Claudia:        What was the hardest part of the adaptation?Victor:        Um…What would it be? I mean, I think it would just generally be like the money-wise. Yeah.

Claudia:        Why did you guys return to Mexico?Victor:        My mom, I guess got... She bought piece of land here and she built a house and she said, "Well, I think I've done everything I have to do, so we're just going to go back." Yeah.Claudia:        So it was just your mom and your siblings over there?Victor:        Yeah, it was two sisters, my nephew, my stepdad and my mom. Yeah.

Victor:        Okay. Yeah, sorry. Just first day of class, that would probably be my earliest memory. First day of class in kindergarten, just arriving at the school and getting to know everybody and that was pretty much it.Claudia:        So do you remember any teachers or any friends that you made in school that had an impact on you?Victor:        Well, yeah my… I guess that was my favorite teacher of all time, it was Ms. Merrill. Yeah. She made an impact on my life. She was very caring and helped me out with my English because I had to get adapted to it since, it was pretty much just Spanish spoken at home. So I had to get adapted to English. Ms. Merrill and, you know, friends along the way.Claudia:        So tell me about your life in the States, how was it here? What did you do?Victor:        Oh, it was great. Yeah, we had everything. It was really never… yeah, we couldn't ask for more. I mean, I couldn't ask for more, neither did my sister, so it was really great. I mean, pretty much just school that's pretty much all I did. I was there up until where I was 12, so I just finished sixth grade and we came back.

Claudia:        So my first question for you is why did your family or yourself decide to leave Mexico?Victor:        Mexico is, I mean, just like any other family in Mexico, the money isn't really the best part, so pretty much economy was just why they decided to migrate.

Hernandez:        Well, remember sometimes that within the States and maybe things were a little bit, like... It's not easier, but you had like more things available, more how you say it? Like you're more comfortable in certain things. Like you have water, you have hot water, you can go by outside right to the corner, buy something to eat. You can go to a park right away. Right here, it’s like, you know, damn, you got to think about what you're going to do and where you're going to go and all that, you know. Like pretty much miss all that, all those things like being more comfortable, you know, like be having more options, you know. That's something good that the United States has, you know, that they actually have a lot of like, lot of things that they offer to the people in the community. So I think that's really good. That's something that Mexico needs to, needs to, needs to do, yeah.

Hernandez:        Oh, well then that's it. I was going through with the bike. I didn't have a helmet. And then I got pulled over by some cops and they were asking me a lot of questions. They were searching me, everything. And, uhm, they're asking me a lot of questions, all that. I didn't have my papers. They took me in and they said the best thing we went with the lawyer, the best thing was the voluntary. And then we just got pretty much a bus from right there. Just crossed to Juarez.

Hernandez:        Well, the family was actually thinking about coming back and then after all those problems. There was a lot of problems over there with migration and all that. And I just feel like a lot of people, not a lot of families, you know, which I think that in a way, you know, it kind of sucks in a way. I'm not saying that a hundred percent, but in certain, uhm, certain families also, it kind of sucks. You know how the way they do some type of abuse, some people, you know. I understand how it is, you know, I understand all that politics, the laws and all. Yeah, I understand all that. And I respect that, you know. I'm a person that respects each and every country here, you know, but in this case, uhm, we had to come back. This is also our home over here. And, you know, we have our house is over here. We have our family, we have our people, our culture over here. So we pretty much we always knew that we were going to come over here when we got family over there and over here.Yeah.

Claudia:        And so did you have like a favorite job in the States?Hernandez:        I like construction. Yeah, construction.Claudia:         What do you like about construction?Hernandez:         Well, pretty much it's rough, but I like the pay. That's the only thing I like about it. I don't like, I don't like working like an animal, but I like the pay, you know, and it's something that comes natural to us.

. Like, maybe my, uh, elementary teacher, like wow. They were like, I didn't know I could get along so much with older people or elderly people, you know, like, instead of just teachers. Like, I got to know more, like as a personal level, on a personal level, and you know. So at first it was tough, but then it was good because, you know, we were moving up.Claudia:        Yeah. And so what did you get up to? What was your life like?Hernandez:        Uh, it's pretty much going to school, helping out around the house. Uh, what else? Uh, learning more stuff, also middle school, and taking care of my family, taking care of my family, helping out my uncles, working, getting jobs, helping them out, always working. All the family... They're all like pretty much 99% of them. They're hard workers, so we're used to working.

Hernandez:        Well, at the beginning, when I remember that it was really like tough over there in the States, you know. It was really tough for our family, you know.  And well we always needed someplace where to live, I guess, you know. Like, economic also reasons that we also wanted to get, like, make sure we were more stable and all that. We have, we have brothers, sisters, and all that. My parents also have their, they had, or they have their parents as well. So, you know, it’s like, for family reasons, you know, they wanted to go over there. We also had friends and family over there and it was like a dream for our parents to go over there and win in the States.

Sergio:        Do you still have family living in the US?Rogelio:        All my family's out there.Sergio:        So it's your parents?Rogelio:        Yeah.Sergio:        Siblings?Rogelio:        Yeah.Sergio:        Children?Rogelio:        And my little girl.Sergio:        And is your partner still there?Rogelio:        She's doing her own thing.Sergio:        Did you guys split up?Rogelio:        Yeah.Sergio:        Are any of your relatives US citizens?Rogelio:        My mom and dad.Sergio:        Mom and dad?Rogelio:        Yeah. And my two brothers. My daughter.Sergio:        Have they come to see you?Rogelio:        Yeah. Actually, when I was working well I would save up money, so I could bring my daughter over here.Sergio:        Have they come to live in Mexico?Rogelio:        No, they come and visit me.Sergio:        Are they considering coming to live in Mexico?Rogelio:        My parents. They say it, but I mean, I doubt it. They are usually over there.

Sergio:        Do you feel safe in Mexico?Rogelio:        No.Sergio:        Have you been a victim of a violent crime here?Rogelio:        Yeah.Sergio:        What crimes?Rogelio:        The reason I got fired from Teletech was because I got shot in [inaudible 00:14:03].Sergio:        Got shot.Rogelio:        I got robbed and I gave him money. I gave him my belongings and he told me to start walking, so I did that. So that was the only reason he started shooting. The first shot didn't even wound me. The second shot got me from behind, punctured my lung, and came out almost by a half of inch to away my heart. So I had a rough time back there.. I was in the hospital. The hospital only kept me for three days which is illegal, but I mean they don’t care. My girlfriend was turning in paperwork, they [inaudible 00:14:54] and stuff, to Teletech, but they didn't run through them.Rogelio:        I don't know what they didn't do, but they went ahead and fired me for abandoning the job. I basically was out of work for almost a year because I didn't get left right, and I've been struggling because of that. I'm losing jobs that I've been having. Either they don't get me because they check through the physical test and they say they’ll call me but they don’t. This job at AT&T, I just got fired because I get exhausted a lot because I can't really run. I did it in Mexico [inaudible 00:15:50]. Then my little attacks, like breathing attacks. It's been really messed up.

Sergio:        Like you were in jail and then...Rogelio:        They actually, they got me for a couple of things that they weren't mine at my house, and they took me into custody. I had my daughter. She was put in child endangerment from what the cop sign said. So I took the blame for everything that they supposedly found, and I was fighting the cases to keep my daughter. I mean, I fought the case and I won it. I won that case. But there was other things and it didn't really matter. I just did about three years. Three years in there and then I got deported.Sergio:        In jail?Rogelio:        Yeah.Sergio:        And then right after that they took you to us.Rogelio:        Yeah.Sergio:        So why were detained in the first place?Rogelio:        Why? Weapons. They had found drugs which I don't know where they came from. It was either that or have child services take my daughter.

Sergio:        Were you frightened of the US authorities?Rogelio:        If I was afraid? No. I mean, I would get harassed all the time, but I mean daily. It was basically a daily routine, so...

Sergio:        Did you work in the US?Rogelio:        Yeah. I did several things. I actually started working out there since I was around 16.Sergio:        16?Rogelio:        Yeah.Sergio:        So you started at 16 and then when did you stop working?Rogelio:        When I got deported.Sergio:        So how many years did you [crosstalk 00:03:24]?Rogelio:        I was basically around 16. I was 16 when I started. At the age of 22 was when I basically got arrested and all that stuff.Sergio:        So like eight?Rogelio:        Hmm?Sergio:        Eight years of working.Rogelio:        Yeah.Sergio:        What jobs?Rogelio:        Different type of jobs. I started in a  factory ... It's like right where they do pans, night shift. I was working, welding with my dad, creating auto parts. I was working at plumbing, construction work. Basically that was it.Sergio:        How much did you earn per hour in the last job in the US?Rogelio:        $13 an hour.

Sergio:        Did you go to school in the US?Rogelio:        Yeah. Sergio:        Up to what year did you get?Rogelio:        I actually finished school. I went to college, I was studying welding, but I didn't finish it.

Sergio:        Did you learn English in the US?Rogelio:        Yeah.Sergio:        How did you learn it?Rogelio:        Actually, I started listening to music and watching programs.Sergio:        Music and programs?Rogelio:        Yeah. That was actually one of the best thing.

Sergio:        Do you know why your parents left?Rogelio:        Yeah. They wanted to left.Sergio:        Did they face violence here or ...?Rogelio:        No, no. We were basically living in a poor town.

Moises:        Well, just to be in my son's life. That's pretty much it. Just to help everybody else around me, everybody that's in a similar situation. Just to maybe change Mexico a little bit. Just make it more... I don't know, just change the life here. Like I said, everybody here is just out for themselves, and it's just very not what I thought Mexico was. My idea of Mexico was, I don't know, just old-fashioned, respectful. Like um... How do you say? I don't know. Just a little more together. But the people here are very against each other. It's just a free for all, you know? Yeah, that's what I'd like to do, just change that a little bit and make life a little better for people coming back, and just somehow, some way, be more in my son's life, you know?

Claudia:        So, do you consider yourself a Mexican or American?Moises:        I mean I always considered myself Mexican. I never really considered myself American, just the fact because I'm not. There's that little, I don't know how to say it, like discrimination a little bit. But then here, now I'm starting to feel like I'm not Mexican.Claudia:        Really?Moises:        Yeah, because like I said, I can't speak the language. I don't know anything really. Yeah, I just feel like an outsider. I feel like that and they make you feel like that. You know what I mean?Claudia:        Yeah.Moises:        If it wasn't for my nationality paperwork and stuff, I wouldn't even... You know what I mean? I wouldn't be able to prove I was Mexican I think.

Moises:        Oh, different, I mean everything's different. I'm just alone. Before, no matter where... situation financially or whatever, I always had somebody or somewhere to go, or my family. Here, because I don't have any family here, so really if I'm maxed out, I'm maxed out. You know what I mean? Other than that, trying to get a job is intimidating I guess, because of my Spanish.Moises:        I don't know, just going out and just talking to anybody, I always feel I guess a little shy or a little intimidated, just by the fact of me not getting heard right or getting understood. I just avoid it, I guess. Yeah, the language is pretty much a very big one, and being alone.

Claudia:        What has been the hardest part of being back in Mexico for you?Moises:        I would say just dealing with that, and everything else, like the language. I've got a very heavy accent, I guess, and people just look at me like, "What the fuck?" Just that, and just communicating. I guess that feeling of not belonging. It wasn't really too much over there, but here I just feel it in every aspect and everywhere. They look at you differently and stuff like that. The community of returnees and stuff like that is pretty much a lifesaver. We're pretty much there for each other. We can relate to each other. Other than that it's, I don't know, I'm grateful for that, but at the same time it's kind of like it sucks. We're all in it, but at least we're in it together.

Moises:        Well, typical... Yes, probably the hardest thing, part that I'm going through. The hardest thing. I don't know, it's just difficult. Sometimes I really don't know what I'm going to do. Sorry. Yeah, I just try not to think about it sometimes. I don't know. I don't know what to say, it's just difficult. I really don't know how to cope with it sometimes or what I'm going to do. I've got hope I'm going to figure it out, I have to. Yeah.Moises:        But yeah, I just hope that I'm going to be able to have a relationship with them somehow some way, it pretty much keeps me going. Yeah.Claudia:        Have you been in contact with him recently? How old is he?Moises:        He's nine. I think it's been six months, I haven't spoken to him. Like I said, his mom's kind of being difficult. The only chance I really talk to him is when my mom gets to I guess take care of him or be around him. That's when I get to talk to him. She calls me and stuff. But yeah, I think in July he's going to be out of summer school, and she's finally going to... She moved out of the city, so she doesn't live in the city, but she's going to drop him off, his mom, so he's going to be with my mom for a little bit. I'm looking forward to talking to him then.

s:        Well, it was... I guess devastating. I didn't know what I was going to do. That's why I spent so long in Immigration, I was there for a year, I guess trying to get bail. But since my case, my charges was pretty much I guess you would say unforgivable, I guess, it was kind of like there's no way I'm going to get bail or I'm going to get a pardon or anything like that. I was just like, "Damn." I was pretty much just buying time, trying to figure something out, because my mom didn't want me to go back to where I was born, in Guerrero, because I guess it's bad. She was like, "Yeah, you're going to get picked up or something like that right away." Especially because she says you could tell right away I'm not from around here. I was like, "Damn."Moises:        Yeah, then afterwards she told me about a friend of the family that lives here in the city. He was willing to I guess take me in, and kind of give me a head's up and stuff. That's when I was like, "All right, then let's do this." Yeah, after that it was just... I don't know, I was depressed. I guess I still am, but it was just hard, you know?

Claudia:        Were you ever affiliated with any gang or did you ever join one?Moises:        I mean I guess you could say... Growing up, I grew up around it, so it was kind of like... But I mean I wasn't in a gang, but most of my closest friends were gang members. I guess it was there, but I knew better, so I never really got too involved in that stuff. It was more of just being around it. As much as I could, I just stayed away. You know what I mean? Yeah, I tried to focus on, I don't know, like providing and stuff like that. Yeah, it wasn't too big of an issue. Yeah.

Moises:        How? Well, I got arrested and pretty much... I bailed out and I spent a little time fighting my case. They were trying to get me for a bunch of stuff that wasn't true, I knew I was innocent of.Claudia:        Like what?Moises:        They tried to get me for a bunch of... Because my friends I was with at the time, they were known gang members and stuff like that, so they tried to get me for a bunch of gang enhancements and drug transporting, and stuff like that. I was like, "Man, this is ridiculous." I ended up fighting my case for almost a year I think. Then when I got convicted, when I signed my sentencing, I was out, so I didn't get picked up. But then I got put on probation, and my first violation I got arrested, and that's when I got picked up by ICE.

That's when I just pretty much started working full-time. I was working, but then it just became more of a necessary thing. Yeah.Claudia:        Where were you working?Moises:        I think that's when I started working at a fast food place, I think it was Carl's Jr. for like a year or something. Then I just kind of hopped around jobs here and there, until I landed a job at the grocery store.Claudia:        Mm-hmm (affirmative).Moises:        Yeah, and that ended up pretty much being my longest job. I worked there like six years. It was cool, I enjoyed it. Yeah.

Claudia:        You said that you graduated high school and you went to college for a little bit?Moises:        Yeah, like a semester. Yeah, yeah. That's when I just pretty much started working full-time. I was working, but then it just became more of a necessary thing. Yeah.

Claudia:        You said that you didn't qualify for DACA relief?Moises:        I guess I did, and I was in the process, it's just there's certain things that I had to ... I guess I had to get my police record and stuff like that, and turn them in and stuff like that. I didn't have anything big, it was just a couple of tickets here and there. But when I was in the process of doing that, that's when I got arrested, and I guess that disqualified me from being qualified.

Claudia:        You mentioned in your survey that you were afraid of the authorities after you turned 15. Why was that?Moises:        That's I guess when reality kind of hit. Growing up before that, I was really not aware of my status, I guess, my immigration status. When I was 15, I think after that it was when college became a topic of interest. I applied for a couple of scholarships, and then that's when I kind of figured out that I wasn't ... How do you say it? I didn't have a social security number and stuff like that. That's when it all kind of sunk in. I was like, "Oh, damn. I could potentially get thrown out of here.” And so Yeah.

Claudia:        I guess my first question for you is what is your earliest memory of the United States?Moises:        I guess it would be school, being at school. Yeah, that's the earliest memory I have, being in school. Like the whole experience and stuff.Claudia:        Do you remember any teachers or friends, or people who had a big impact?Moises:        I guess friends, like childhood friends, I pretty much remained friends with them up until I guess after high school. Everybody goes their ways, but yeah, it would be my friends. Just school, like the whole ... Home wasn't really too much going on, you know? Going to school was life.

Len:        Probably. Well, New York has a lot of musicians, New York is like a city with artists. But I do think so because I was not the only one leaving, I saw the one from the TV that was Chinese. I had another friend that had renewed her visa for 20 years, she's German and she also had to leave. I think they did lose a lot of people.Anita:        What do they lose?Len:        They lose talent, they lose working people. What else? I don't know, just a lot of people who are citizens get so many resources and money and they're actually not giving anything to society, and then there's people who are actually willing to work and they actually don't really support this part. It's like, "Well, you don't have papers. I'm sorry, whatever you're doing." I guess they think someone else will do it or they just don't really care that no one else is there to do it.Anita:        Do you think Mexico recognizes your talents?Len:        No. Music is very bad paying here. For what I was doing in the States, I met another guy in HolaCode who currently has that kind of job and he's now making a lot of money. It's seems hard to find spaces. I guess I also need to network a bit more to get to know more people in the music industry here, but so far I don’t think, those skills haven't been really helping me here. It's not been very appreciated.

Anita:        So what's it been like to come back to Mexico?Len:        What's it been like? Well, the first month was a bit tough because I was kind of depressed. I do have family here, but I missed also my family over there, I missed my friends, I missed my job, the lifestyle. So at first, I was a bit depressed. Started looking for a job and it was not easy. And while I was doing the job search, I found HolaCode, which was a very nice thing to do and it did help me to feel better about being here because you find other people who, they speak English, they've been through also this thing about having to come back. Somehow, you have certain things that you identify with this group of people and then it also opens the doors to different careers, so that made it easier, the transition since it had been four months that I wasn't here.

Anita:        Was it easy to make friends in the US?Len:        Yes. At first, the first weeks, I didn't meet that much people. My aunt introduced me to a couple people, but eventually I found this app called MeetUp, and at first I was a bit hesitant to try it because in Mexico, it wouldn't be the safest. They organize events and then you see people who have the same interests, so I started attending and I started meeting a lot of people who liked the same things I did.Len:        One of these MeetUp groups kind of became the group I would attend to every single week and they became my friends. I think since I've been in Mexico, 11 friends from that group have come to visit me already.Anita:        Wow. So it's a MeetUp group, it's kind of like Match.com?Len:        No. It is a group in which you organize an event. You join a group that has the name of something you're interested in. So you'll type in video games, or comics, or hiking, and then you'll find several groups. Then you pick one and then you respond to the event and the number of people attend this event. And if you like it, you'll keep showing up to the events that this group is organizing. It's just funny because the group I got very well along with was mostly for Asian girls, but then they invited me into the group and this was pretty much the people that I would always hang out with.Anita:        So you joined a group. What were the Asian girls doing? How did you connect with that group?Len:        Well, I went to a MeetUp, there was a party, and at the party, I met one of these girls and she told me, "Oh, you should join this group." I was like, "It's only for Asians." And then she told me, "You should just still apply and see if they let you into the group." So I applied and then she told me, "Oh yeah, you got in." I was like, "How did you know?" She's like, "I manage the group." So started showing up and she got too busy with work, so I was the one actually organizing the events every week. We would do different kind of activities. Sometimes go party, sometimes go for dinner, kayaking, karaoke. Yeah, every single week there was something to do.

Len:        I don't know. For instance, you're a lot into technology, you like comics or certain things. They find the term geek or nerd as a bad thing and you get bullied because of that. In the States, people, I don't know, they get really excited about that. You have a Superman sweatshirt and everybody on the street talks to you and is like, "Hey, I love your sweatshirt," and you don't even know them. I kind of felt like I fit in better, so I really liked it. And there were a lot of things that I could do that I like, like Julliard, or like  the music festivals. They still have that here in Mexico, but it's not quite the same. As a job, it also does not pay the same. Like in here, for recording, that kind of events, they'll give you 400 pesos, over there they would give me $200 per hour. So the difference was huge.

Len:        I studied at Julliard and then I studied at SVA. SVA was mostly for completing the credits.Anita:        How did you manage to get accepted to Julliard? You must be amazing.Len:        Well, at first, I was not sure if I was going to pass through all the interview process and everything, so I said, "Well, if I do not pass, I'm going to buy a nice camera with that money." But I went to Julliard, first it was some information, informative sessions with the teachers, what kind of courses they were offering, then I applied, and then there were several interviews. And some of them asked you to bring whatever work you already had because for music technology, there are some things that you know already how to do certain things about audio recording with computer. Since I studied communications, I did have some work done in the studio that I had recorded for school, so I delivered what I had from school, had the interviews with the teachers. Sometimes they'll have some other testing, which you'll find the keyboard in the room and they'll ask you different stuff. That was it.Len:        After the last interview, just went home, I was just waiting for the news. Also, because I applied not for the entry class, I applied for a little bit more advanced class, so I said, "Well, maybe they'll actually just give me the other class, but it's fine as long as I get in." But no, I actually got into the class I applied for, so it was pretty exciting.Anita:        That's amazing. Did you like it?Len:        I loved it. It was great. School itself, when you get in, it's just like in the movies. As you're walking through the hallway, you see people dancing around, you hear the different music coming from the different rooms, there's windows in dancing rooms, so you can even see the ballet people while I was just heading to where they had the area for music technology. And the lobby's on a different floor, so then you would get to see even more while you're going downstairs.

Len:        Why I went to the States? Well, I went to the States because I had a job that I didn't really like here in Mexico, working long hours, getting very little money paid. Just ended up being frustrating. And then my friend talked to me about some exchange programs that made it really easy for Mexicans to go to the state. I think it took me, the whole process, maybe three months and I was already there. The only requirement is you had to work, of course, to pay whatever I had to pay for. So I was allowed to work as a part-time job and I was required to also get at least six school credits per semester.

Isabel:        What's it like at the call center with so many people having spent time in the States? Do you think it's different than other jobs?Nadxieli:        It's bringing some part of them right here. I know you, I got you. But at the same time here we are.

Isabel:        Yeah. That's good then. This is a weird question, so do with it what you will. Do you feel Mexican or American?Nadxieli:        Mexican. Hell, yeah.Isabel:        Hell, yeah. Why is that?Nadxieli:        Well, I don't know. This is who I am, you cannot change that. Even though you move out a country, a continent, you are what you are at the end, I think you never forget that. I think when you forget that is when you lost your identity, most likely people take advantage of that. So as long as you remember who you are and where you're coming from, you're good.Isabel:        I like that.Nadxieli:        Yeah.Isabel:        I know some people say, oh, you talk different or you have these different things about you because of your time in the US, and some people may say "Oh, you're from neither here or there," some people they don't know you may not have the same experience, but some people think you're too Mexican to be American or too American to be Mexican. That's a trend you see. What would you say to that?Nadxieli:        I would say I'm 100% Mexican. I never changed that. It took a while to get into the Mexican stuff again. But at the end we already knew that. So it was not that hard. I also think that it's because I didn't spend a lot of years there. So I know people working where I'm working, they spent their whole life, so that will be different if I spend like 22 years out of 23, I guess that will be different.

Isabel:        Yeah. So then what led to you returning back to Mexico then?Nadxieli:        Because first of all, we were afraid to get caught. Also, she thought that maybe one day, one of us would like to go back. And if you get deported, you cannot do that anymore. So she was like, "If you, at any time want to go back. Just don't lose this chance," that's why we came back. We have family. We're good I guess.

Isabel:        Do you know what your mom's hopes was or are for you and your sister while you were in the US at least?Nadxieli:        To have a degree. To have a degree, because she studied here. She didn't have a degree, but she started halfway. And she told us, "It's way too different. You should take advantage of that." I was just a kid, right? But then I started realizing, as far as I remember, we don't have this in Mexico. We should take advantage of it. School, just like you said, if you go outside of a Mexican school, you can see a difference. You can see what I'm saying. And I remember that. Yeah. She was hoping we can actually get a degree or a job, or just a decent life. But it is what it is I guess.

Isabel:        I think it's just important to hear, people don't understand, sometimes they think, "Oh, people migrate here and they just take advantage of everything." But in reality, there is a lot of fear and paranoia that can go with having an undocumented status and it can be difficult. I don't think people realize that. Can you tell me just what it was like to say, "I want to go to the library, go outside," but also be paranoid at the same time?Nadxieli:        Yeah. Well, in your mind, you're like, "I need to do this and this and this and this," but you also feel like you're not stepping in something real, you're getting to another reality where you actually need to take care of not being caught. I remember this, pretty clearly, when I was walking, I saw those cops look right straight at me. They didn't say anything, but it was uncomfortable, because I was just working, and this time they looking at me like, "We know." That's how it felt, like, "We know," right?Isabel:        Yeah. It must have been hard for you.Nadxieli:        Yeah. And I started walking fast like, "No. Please no," Because I was afraid.Isabel:        How old were you?Nadxieli:        Around 14, 15 maybe. But what I was afraid of most is, I can't get caught and then I will be without my family, because I felt like the only one was about to get deported was just me. And I thought like, "No. I don't want to lose my mom. I don't want to lose my sister either." So it feels like they're always looking at you. Do you see what I'm saying?

Isabel:        But you wanted to get books from the library?Nadxieli:        Yeah. I used to walk around. It's pretty cool right there. It's all green and I love to walk along and have adventures. So yeah, I used to go to the library, but then I stopped. I lost my ID and I don't remember why I didn't get it back. Yeah. I used to go a lot, and then when the time to come back arrived, we used to hide. So I guess that's why we didn't get back all of our stuff, like my ID, for example, because I was afraid. I was afraid to be on the outside and get caught.

Isabel:        So you mentioned that you did have some friends who had been to school and show what school was like. What were your friends like?Nadxieli:        Nice. Pretty nice. Their parents too. But I remember that where we used to live, it was a trailer, we have a lot of neighbors, but some of them, they know about our situation and sometimes they were kind of rude. I wouldn’t say aggressive, I would say rude. I kind of understand why we were facing that, but it's still not good.Isabel:        Yeah.Nadxieli:        No.Isabel:        Why do you think they were rude?Nadxieli:        I think they're afraid. They're still afraid, because we're unknown. It seems like we're unknown, but we're still people. We still have hopes, dreams just like them.Isabel:        Yeah.Nadxieli:        But I think they're afraid because there are a lot of rumors about Mexican people and so on, and so on, and so on. But I think the best way to realize what is really going on is to get close up to people and ask them, "Hey, what's up? What's really going on?" It's different.

Isabel:        Did you go to school in the US though?Nadxieli:        No, I didn't. No, I didn't.Isabel:        Why was that?Nadxieli:        Because I used to have a lot of friends and they taught me. First of all, I didn't know how to speak English, so they taught me talking, going around, and then they show me like their novels, their books. They were all colorful, full of information, I guess. But I couldn't read at all, because I didn't know how to speak English. It took a while. But then when I couldn't, I started learning by my own, asking for books, libraries, and pretty much that's it. I ain't went to any school really.Isabel:        And why didn't you go to school?Nadxieli:        I don't know. I guess my mom was too busy to get involved in all of that. I think she tried, I can't remember that much, but I think she tried to get us into school, both of us, but then I don't know what happened.Isabel:        Did you want to go to school?Nadxieli:        I'm sorry. What?Isabel:        Did you want to go to school when you were younger?Nadxieli:        Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. Because when I was walking outside, I always saw all of the kids running all happy with their moms and it's a really good picture, right? They're going out of the school so happy, it must be good. It must be cool. Yeah. It never happened.Isabel:        So what did you do during the day since you didn't go to school? Spend your time?Nadxieli:        I was just chilling around and sometimes I used to go with my mom and help her out, she used to clean, so I learned a lot. But since her boss didn't want us to be there, we were there when he was not there. So we help her, and then we left and we were chilling around basically.

Nadxieli:        So it has always been my mom, my sister and me. As far as I remember working here, in Mexico, has always been pretty hard. You work a lot, but you don't get paid what you deserve. So I guess we were living okay, surviving. So when we were there, we saw a difference, there's more in life than being just surviving. But we also realize that it comes with a price to pay, you're not free, because that's not your country, so you're not entirely part of it.Nadxieli:        Yeah. So basically we saw the education is way better right there. Here, teachers, they don't care about what you learn. They just want to do their job and get paid, that's it. We also realized that you don't have to live together-together with your neighbors. You can have your own spot. You know what I'm saying?

Isabel:        So it's Isabel. So just to start, do you think you could tell me a bit about how old you were when you migrated and what were the motivations for your family to come to the US?Nadxieli:        Alrighty. So I was around 12, most likely we were just in a journey, but then we realized that there is a lot of opportunity to make some money that could actually help us out to grow up. My mom has no studies, she has no degree, so we thought we, and I'm speaking of my sister and me, did it first then she can get her papers or something like that. And we tried, she started working. We didn't, but I don't know, time passed really fast. And when our residence went down, we tried to continue the process and asked for more time where maybe now has a permanent residence, but more time, extend the limit. We've been told no. We also get behind. Yeah.

Isabel:        Yeah. Any family separation, is that difficult now? Language, adopting to a new culture, discrimination, your crowd difficulties, none of that? Okay. And then do you still have a family living in the United States?Moe:        Yeah.Isabel:        And then if yes, who? So parents, siblings, children.Moe:        Yeah, everybody's out there. Children, parents.

Isabel:        Was your return to Mexico difficult?Moe:        Yeah, it was.Isabel:        We have a lot of options for why and you can check off any that apply. We can also add some.Moe:        [inaudible 00:15:10] Okay.Isabel:        Yeah. [inaudible 00:15:14]Moe:        I guess you could put landing a job.Isabel:        Landing a job?Moe:        Nobody want to hire nobody with tattoos all over the body and shit.Isabel:        Yeah, the stereotypes that go with it.Moe:        Especially here.

Isabel:        Yes, because you're working right now.Moe:        Well right now, I am. Yeah.Isabel:        What jobs?Moe:        What jobs?Isabel:        Yes.Moe:        I'm at a call center right now.Isabel:        Okay, any jobs before that?Moe:        Just, uh, construction.Isabel:        And how much are you paid at the call center?Moe:        4,000 and something a month. Every two weeks. For something like almost 5,000 pesos, every two weeks.

Isabel:        Okay, so we can skip that. And then for detention deportation, did you appear before a judge?Moe:        No, because I signed my deportation right away. I didn't want to, I didn’t want to see nobody, because I'm telling you I didn't want to wait in jail and see nobody. I had my twins that were like two years old, and so I didn't want to, have them waiting or anything. So I just signed. I'm not going to sit in jail just for them to tell me to go back. You know? I said, I just signed it. So I didn't see no judge, I didn't see nobody. They just signed my deportation, that was it.

Isabel:        Let me just put that in, real quick. And then, uhm, what caused you to leave the United States?Moe:        Deported.Isabel:        Were you detained when you were deported or were you given voluntary deportation?Moe:        Detained and deported.Isabel:        And then could you tell me in one word what prompted your run in with ICE? So there is detained by the police, imprisonment, workplace or other way, wrong place at the wrong time, or other?Moe:        I guess other, they ran up in my house. They didn’t, I mean, it's not that I was in prison, why they went and picked me, nah, they just, they said my name popped up and they went and they had all a search warrant, or not a search warrant, a arrest warrant. And they went to my house. They, they—Isabel:        What was it for?Moe:        Now if I would've known at that time, everything that I know now, I'm pretty sure I would've beat the case. I'm pretty sure I would've been able to stay because knowing what I know now and what was my situation back at that time, I was like 95, maybe like 80% that I would have stayed. But due to the fact that I had a couple of my other boys, you know, went through the same shit, I'm sorry, through the same situation. And I didn't, I didn’t want to go through it, I didn't want to go sit in jail, wait for eight months and then for them to tell me “you know what, you still got to go back.”Isabel:        Right. First, by police and then ICE.Moe:        So I just signed. I said, you know what, as soon as ICE grabbed me, I just signed my deportation and that was it. You know?

Isabel:        Yeah. During this time, did you follow any U.S. political news? Like on TV or social media?Moe:        No, not really. I didn't really know I was illegal till I was like 13 years old, 12 years old. My mom said we need to go get on your fingerprints taken so you can get your social security so you could work. I said, "why do I need that?" She's like, "You're not a citizen." I said, "What the fuck is it?” I said, “I thought I was born here." She was like, "Oh, you're not born here." I said, "All right then."Isabel:        Did you know what it meant to not be undocumented?Moe:        Not really at the time, I didn't. I mean, knew that you just weren't born there. I didn't know that down the line, all that was going to happen.

Isabel:        And then could you list the jobs you had?Moe:        I had a bunch. I mean, I worked at a restaurant and I've been a cook, I've been a cashier, I worked in demolition, I worked in remodeling, painting, landscaping work, I mean, name it. Everything that a immigrant does out there, I've done it.

Isabel:        So, you were two so you didn't have any English language skills when you went to the U.S. Did you learn English while you were in the U.S.?Moe:        Yes.Isabel:        And then how did you learn English? Was it at courses at work and in the community?Moe:        School.Isabel:        School. And then how would you describe your English language skills now? Is it good, fluent? Moe:        I think they're good.

Moe:        They got, they got, uhm… My mom's a resident now or a citizenship. She's a citizen now.Isabel:        Okay. But upon entering, did they apply for citizenship?Moe:        No, I think they just came here illegally and then somehow down the line she fixed.Isabel:        Did you become a U.S. resident?Moe:        I was going to, but my situation didn't work out. But I was already at my social security.

Isabel:        And then we can skip that. And then, so how old were you when you migrated?Moe:        Two years old.Isabel:        And then so how did your family enter the United States?Moe:        Illegally.Isabel:        Across the border?Moe:        Yeah.Isabel:        Did you, or in this case, your parents, apply for political asylum?Moe:        They got, they got, uhm… My mom's a resident now or a citizenship. She's a citizen now.Isabel:        Okay. But upon entering, did they apply for citizenship?Moe:        No, I think they just came here illegally and then somehow down the line she fixed.

Isabel:        Why did you or your family migrate to the United States?Moe:        I don't know. I was little, so I'm guessing for a better living. I don't know.Isabel:        Yeah.

Marcos:        If someone hears this, I just want to let them know that take advantage of whatever opportunity they have if they're in the States. Just focus on the future because future is never... You never know what can happen, something can change, one little mistake can take you back. You can never regret it because you had the opportunity, you had the chance. I'm not saying in my country you don't have that, but it's easier over there in the United States, it's really easier. You have everything to do someone or become someone because there's a lot of support and the government helps a lot. Here in Mexico, it's pretty much the same thing, but this is more difficult. You have to work.

Claudia:        Do you consider yourself Mexican or American?Marcos:        United States is not just America, we're all American. But for country, I feel Mexican.

Claudia:        Would you like to open your own business?Marcos:        Yes, to be honest. Yes.Claudia:        What would you like it to be?Marcos:        I like to create things, I like to do tile, so I will open a tile business.

Claudia:        So was the return difficult?Marcos:        Not really because everything... my entire family is here. My mom.Claudia:        Yeah. Tell me about that. You left, how was it leaving your family and then coming back all those years later?Marcos:        To me, it wasn't difficult to be honest. Because I'm those type of people that when I decide something I go for it. It doesn't matter what I had to leave behind. If I want that, that's what I do. So, I'm not, like, lonely person, but the type of the situation, I just always decide for myself. It is difficult, you've left your family, your dad, it was kind of difficult because my dad passed away. My brother got killed.Claudia:        By?Marcos:        My brother got killed by I don't know who. My dad just died. So those are the things that's kind of difficult still because I'm never going to get the chance to see them. The last time I saw them it was 2006, it was in August. That was the last time I saw their face.

Claudia:        And you said that you later applied for political asylum?Marcos:        Yeah, I did. Because what happened was I had no choice. I didn't know what to do. So they give me the voluntary departure. But if I do that, I have no one to help me out because what happened is that I have my buddies, you know they come here with the money? So no one... Besides that, I didn't want to get involved with no one, I didn't want to affect no one. So that's the reason that I did the political asylum, but that's the reason that I got deported, for that.Claudia:        Got it, because you didn't get approved.Marcos:        I didn't, right.

Marcos:        So I applied for DACA. I did a follow-up, but I don't know what happened to be honest. The only thing that I wanted to be was to be over with. I just want to be free, I don't want to be... People follow me or, because I used to take daily appointments, once a week to immigration. I need to go over there and sign up, they talk to me and things like that. And they got me with a little bracelet on the leg so they know where I am, what I'm doing and all that stuff. So it was kind of aggravating and frustrating at the same time because I was feeling like a little dog, like an animal. I understand that we make mistakes and that's the way we learn. But that's no way to treat people like that, you know?Claudia:        So why did they give you the chance to stay in the States?Marcos:        Because I went to school and they told me to get a lawyer. I get a lawyer, the lawyer didn't do nothing, at all.Claudia:        Yeah. Wow. So you kept continuing on in that process for two years, but you still were able to apply for DACA and all that, and you were on your path to get residency?Marcos:        I was about to get the DACA, the permission to be there, to study, to work.

Claudia:        So, how did you end up back in Mexico?Marcos:        In Mexico, that was because... For that, that's how everything started, they did a follow-up. So when I did time in the county, they dropped, supposedly, the felony. They dropped it to a misdemeanor. And then when I went, they took me to immigration so that's where they hold me. They released me, they gave me a chance to stay in the States, but they got me for no driver's license, two times, three times total. So, and then... they keep you like that for two years.

Marcos:        Yeah. What happened is that I was with some friends, we were in the streets.Claudia:        What were you doing?Marcos:        We were just hanging out, like walk out, things like that. But, there was people that were doing other stuff. So I got involved and that's the reason I got arrested.Claudia:        What kind of stuff?Marcos:        Just stupid stuff, like just chillin’, [inaudible], doing like... going to a, what you call? Just kid places, you know?Claudia:        So how did they get you then? You just got picked up one day?Marcos:        Yeah. I just got picked up. We were doing just stupid stuff and then I got caught off.Claudia:        Like drugs, alcohol?Marcos:        No, no, no. It was other stuff. Yeah. So yeah, they pulled me over and as a result I ended up in the county.

Marcos:        I used to do a little bit of everything, what I wanted to be was... I tried to play professional soccer, but I never had the money or the [inaudible 00:03:17]. So I started school, I started playing soccer. I was good at it and then what happened is that I moved to a different county. And that was when it was over with. But then after that I started working, a little bit of everything, restaurants, waitress, carwash, and things like that.Claudia:        What did you like about soccer?Marcos:        Everything. Yeah, since I was a little kid.Claudia:        What's your favorite team?Marcos:        From Mexico is America and from Europe is Barcelona.Claudia:        And so how long did you play soccer for, until...Marcos:        I played soccer for, I think it was a season and a half. What happened was that I got a little injured, my leg. And then I stopped playing.

Claudia:        Awesome. And so tell me about your job, your work, your life.Marcos:        I used to do a little bit of everything, what I wanted to be was... I tried to play professional soccer, but I never had the money or the [inaudible 00:03:17]. So I started school, I started playing soccer. I was good at it and then what happened is that I moved to a different county. And that was when it was over with. But then after that I started working, a little bit of everything, restaurants, waitress, carwash, and things like that.

Claudia:        And do you remember any teachers or friends?Marcos:        Yes, I remember Mrs. _____, she was a really nice teacher. She used to speak Spanish. I went to the _____ High School in 2006 to 2008. And yeah, it was really nice. I had a really nice time there, they were really great. They was helping the Spanish people.

Claudia:        And yeah. So my first question is why did you leave Mexico and who with?Marcos:        By myself, and it was because what happened where I lived, it was a lot of crime... that's why. I've never been gang-related, nothing like that. Never like that.Claudia:        And what type of crime would happen?Marcos:        Just drugs and things like that, and a lot of violence.Claudia:        Was it organized criminals or cartels that ran?Marcos:        It was a little bit of everything.

Aide:        Well, right now I'm just working. Like I said, In a call center. And well, I want to keep on working. So then I can get my own money. Get money and start making something. By doing something so that I am not always in a call center. Stuck on a call center. I mean, I don't have any other option. I have to do what I got to do and try to look for a better life you know.

Sergio:        So do you feel more comfortable in that environment here?Aide:        Yeah. Well, I guess I had to get used to it. I don't have any other option. Either you get used to it or you get used to it.Sergio:        Oh, you've been back in Mexico. Have you ever been a victim of a crime?Aide:        Yeah, I’ve been robbed. Yeah, when I go on the bus or yeah. I've been... That's a lot of people that get on the bus to rob. That's the most common thing that can happen here.Sergio:        What have they robbed from you?Aide:        My phone, my money. Yeah.Sergio:        Do you feel safe here?Aide:        No, I'll never feel safe here. I don't know. They have a problem with us, with females. I don't know what the problem is. But being a female and living here in Mexico is not really nice. You can't really go out. Turn in time because then there will be looking out for you or like just chasing you to kidnap you or rape you. So it's really not, I'll never feel safe here.

Sergio:        Do you get more of that here? Like you being from the US. People look at you in the same way that they looked at you over there in the US.Aide:        Yeah. The States, they looked at me like that because I was Mexican. So now I'm here and they look at me like that because I was in the States. So, but here, the difference is that in the States, they looked at you like that because obviously they're from the States during their country. So they think that they have the right to look at people that are not from there like we're aliens or something. And here it's like, they look at you like "Oh no, you think you're everything you think you're...." No, I don't think I'm everything. I just, it wasn't even my fault that I was in the States. They think that you're making them feel like less… Sergio:        Which one was worse?Aide:        The States are worse because it was really uncomfortable listening to people talk about legal people or immigrants. That wasn't really nice.

Sergio:        What's your least favorite thing about the United States?     Aide:        My least favorite was the fact that... Yeah, there are people who will also discriminate because they will be like, "Oh no Mexicans or this illegal people." Some people like, even some teachers at school, they will look at the Mexicans like that. They will look at them really weird. Or people even on the streets like, "Oh no, there's Mexican people." Or that's something that I don't really like. I didn't like when I was in the States. But I knew it was normal. I mean.

Sergio:        Every time I used to go to California. It was really awesome, because you keep on learning new things, seeing new things. And when I went to the beach, everything is like really perfect. As far as I remember, yeah. Everything was cool. I have a lot of things that I liked from the States a lot.

Sergio:        Do you feel like you're more American than you are Mexican?Aide:        Yes. Even though I was, I wasn't born in the US. I did feel like I was more American because I started school really small. I grew up everything. I know, I felt like I was from the US. And then when I started school here. It was like, "Oh, I don't know anything about Mexico." Literally I don't know. And when I got here was a little bit of trouble speaking Spanish because I got used to speaking English all the time. So, yeah it was really... It was like the worst experience landing here after living your whole life basically, or since you were a little kid. And your childhood, leaving it in the States and then coming here and not knowing anything. Not knowing anybody is really complicated.

Sergio:        So coming back when you landed, what was that transition like?Aide:        It was horrible. Yeah. Because basically I didn't really know anything about Mexico. And I didn't know anybody. People saw me like I was really different because obviously people from the States are really different and everything. The things I would do, the way I would talk, the way I would, everything. They will see like if I was weird, if I were strange and I would think that they were weird because of the things that they would do. The life, the money, everything. Everything was like... I don't really, I know I'm from here, but wow. Really different.

Sergio:        So what's one of your... What's your favorite memory of the US?Aide:        My favorite memory. Well, life is really different over there. So there's not just one thing that I like about... My favorite memory was that when every time I got out of high school, out of school. I would go out with my friends and I would be more secure than here. Well, since I lived in Vegas, I was able to go and walk on the strip. I don't know. Go to the, to Circus Circus Casino do a lot of things that you're not able to do here. I can't go out because, there's a lot of people that they see that you have money. They go and rob you. So it's really complicated to actually live here. So my favorite memory was that being able to go and have fun and be safe.

Sergio:        Did you want to come back?Aide:        No, it cost me a lot of crying. A lot of arguments. Everything. Yeah. It was really difficult when I got here. It was, I was crying. I hated everything. I was like, "Oh, why am I here?" I was happy over there. I had everything. And I was about to get the DREAM Act papers. And that's what hurted the most. Because I was about to accomplish something that was like the purpose of why my mom took me over. Yeah.

Sergio:        So what was the point where you said to yourself "This is it." First of all why did you come back?Aide:        Well, for family problems because my mom passed away. So then my dad yeah, my momSergio:        How old were you? How old were you when she passed away? Aide:        Well, I was 14 years old. So when my mom passed away, my dad decided to make a really make... It was a very difficult living with the pain that my mom had recently passed away. And then my dad was all upset of course. And frustrated. And he decided to come over here. So we actually went to the Mexican embassy like the consulado. Well they told us, "No, you guys got to get out of here. We'll give you the... We'll pay for the trip and everything. But you guys got to get out of here". So, I mean that was kind of my dad's fault because he decided to come over here. So he was the one to actually look for those people so that they can bring us back.Sergio:        Why?Aide:        I don't know why. I really never understand it. why he wanted to come back.

Sergio:        So did that affect you and your performance in school? When they told you stuff like that?Aide:        Yeah, because they got me really upset. So I wasn't really sure what was going to happen. I wasn't sure if I graduated from high school, I would be able to go to college. So that really did affect me. I was really insecure about what would happen.

Sergio:        So did being undocumented ever affect you growing up?Aide:        Yes. Because in that case. Sometimes when I told them that I wanted to go to college. They would tell me that I wasn't allowed to go to college because I didn't have papers. I was really close to getting the DREAM Act permit. When I came over here. That really hurt because I wanted to be able to get that permit. I actually have some cousins over there that have the DREAM Act. They came and visited me. So it's really sad, but I wasn't able to be like them.Sergio:        So what state were you living in?Aide:        Nevada.Sergio:        Nevada. And who told you that you couldn't go to school because you were undocumented?Aide:        Well, sometimes they were meetings at the school. And people that came from different colleges. And they started saying, "Well, would you guys like to learn more about college and everything?" And I have some family also that well... Family and friends that I would tell them "Oh, I want to go to this college." "Oh, but you can't because you're illegal." So like I said, "I was already looking forward to the DREAM Act." But then that's when I came here.

Sergio:        Did any of your friends know you were undocumented?Aide:        Yeah. Most of them knew. Because when I got over there, I didn't know anything of English. I learned it. It was hard because at the beginning I was a little kid. And then when I went to kindergarten. I got scared and I even kicked the teacher. Because I didn't want to stay. Because the way they talked English. I would be like, "what are they saying?"

Sergio:        What were your friends like there?Aide:        We used to go outside and play, sit on the little gray boxes that were like the light thingy, or I don't remember what it was. I don't know. You know the gray boxes that were outside?Sergio:        For the telephone?Aide:        No, I think it was a power thing.Sergio:        The big power boxes.Aide:        Yeah. Yeah. I remember we would sit right there and tell each other stories or joke.

Sergio:        Do you have any teachers that you really remember or any friends that you really remember?Aide:        Yeah. A lot of teachers that I remember because they teach me a lot. There's little things that I do. And then I remember this teacher or songs, even songs like the Katy Perry song. The Fireworks song. One time I was in class and the teacher was teaching us about the... What the song says about, "If you ever feel like a plastic bag." She was talking about that kind of sense. So every time I hear that song. I remember the teacher. I remember all my friends. Yeah.

Sergio:        Because she had been in the US before.Aide:        Yeah, but she didn't have papers. None of my family had papers. So we illegally crossed the border. And I didn't know anything about that. I was like a little kid. I just remember that they took me. And I fell asleep and then I woke up over there.

Sergio:        So what's your first memory of being in the United States?Aide:        When I got over there, the first thing that I did was, I went to McDonald's cause I was like really happy. And of course seeing my mom. And everything was so different. And I mean, everything that I wanted, they would go and buy it for me. And I remember that when I wanted something here. It would be like, "No, we got to wait for money." It was really difficult. Some, some of the things that I kind of remember from here when I was little. It was really, really difficult.

Sergio:        Six years old. Do you remember anything from Mexico?Aide:        No. Actually, the only thing that I remember was that, when I was like four or five I went to Pre-K here. I just went for like a month. And then they took me. That's all I remember.

Sergio:        So Aide, what do you know if they ever talked about you? Any other reasons you left for the United States?Aide:        Well, no as far as I know, that was the reason so that I can have a better life. So that I can... The first thing that my parents wanted was for me to know how to speak English. And well to graduate from high school and then go to college. Basically to have the life that I wouldn't be able to have right here.

Anne:        And your daughter's a US citizen, which is great for her.Uriel:        Exactly.Anne:        She can come and go.Uriel:        Mm-hmm (affirmative).Anne:        But you've never really lived with her?Uriel:        With my daughter?Anne:        Yeah.Uriel:        No, last time I seen her, she was months. She was a little girl. She was a little baby. She grew up on me.Anne:        Is she a beautiful girl?Uriel:        Yeah, she's beautiful.

Anne:        What are your dreams now?Uriel:        Actually I have no dreams. I'm just trying to work and survive, like I said. Survive.Anne:        Maybe when you get some money, you'll have some dreams.Uriel:        Yeah. Buy a nice car, buy a nice house, stuff like that, yeah.Anne:        See your daughter again?Uriel:        My daughter actually, she's going to come in a couple months. So I can't wait for that.Anne:        Is the mom going to… Uriel:        She's going to come too, yeah.

Anne:        Yeah. It's a lot. It’s a lot. So, you're American. If I said to you, are you American or Mexican, what would you say?Uriel:        American, of course. I would tell you I lived in LA all my life.Anne:        4th of July comes along, what will you do?Uriel:        Drink.Anne:        [Laughs] Will you celebrate?Uriel:        Yeah. I'll give myself some couple beers and enjoy the day.

Anne:        And you're now at TeleTech?Uriel:        Yeah. I just started.Anne:        What do you think about that?Uriel:        I think it's perfect. They hired me with all my tattoos and I talk English, which is right. I think it's good.Anne:        You made any friends?Uriel:        Actually female friends, yeah.Anne:        Are they at TeleTech too?Uriel:        Yeah, they're right there too.Anne:        So that's good.Uriel:        Yeah.

Uriel:        Well, I have to deal with it. I want to keep the job I had to may be here in time and all that.Anne:        There are no jobs there where you bought the property?Uriel:        Well they wouldn't take me. I got too many tattoos.Anne:        Because it's more rural.Uriel:        I don't have no idea, but they won't hire me.Anne:        Discrimination.

Uriel:        Yeah. I'm barely getting to know Mexico and...Anne:        What do you think?Uriel:        Sucks. Excuse my language, ma'am.Anne:        It’s okay. Tell me why it sucks?Uriel:        Just everything. Pshh, [scoffing] The money, the way that people are here, the way the law is here, everything, everything. I don't like it.