Anita: So, what happened to you? How did you get stopped by the police? What's the story?Erik: I was on my AA meeting. I was on the work, and before work I have a AA meeting, so I was driving without a seatbelt. I was pulled over by a police officer, he asked me for my driver's license. I have driver's license for another state. Then, he made it no valid which was a violation. I know it was illegal, but I was trying to stick as much as I can to the law. So I have a driver's license from another state. For which, the police officer is supposed to give me only a ticket at the most—you go to the court, the court told you no, you have a valid license, you don't have this. But the police officers knew if he locked me down then they going to interview me with an ICE officer. So he knew what he was doing. But, it was, well, just driving without the seat belt.

Erik: From either person. I mean, I just believe if you talk about discriminations just talk about [inaudible 22:26], people with narrow mind. It could be a white, it could be a black, it could be Hispanic. It could be people from India. We are tribal beings. And if you do not belong to my tribe, I going to feel afraid of you. I going to set back. And all those fears is part of the discrimination. So of course you always experience it. I was deported by a black police officer supporting Trump. [Both laugh]. You telling me I'm not facing discrimination? Of course, but you see the same here in Mexico. People discriminate Indians, or not in Mexicans. You know? Or they discriminate you if you don't have money, or they discriminate you if you don't have a good job. You name it.

Erik: I like to live out the country, besides the big city like this one. Go to the lake, fishing, hunting, or you know? Or, like right now, I got a big backpack cause I got to swim and then go to jog. But I got to do it in the gym. Right there, I can go to the lake or go and jog in the woods. That's what I like. So is basically what I miss. You know?

Erik: Yeah, I like the region. I just lived Georgia. It has like mix of modern and the country.

Erik: Because right here in Mexico, you can have a degree, you can have an education, but you don't get paid for. I used to make the same kind of money being just a laborer or working in a factory. You know? And it's not that I don't like to be a psychologist, it's just that economics is a big motivation to keep studying. You know what I mean? And well, I don't volunteer, but I've been working a lot of psychology issues like assisting people working on rehab centers. Like, NA, Narcotics Anonymous. And being listen their problems, and talking to them, and tell them how I left the drug issues and all that. So I just get tired of psychology, you know? [Laughs].

Edgar: To not be afraid to come back. I think you can live a good life here in Mexico, too. And not worry about if you come back, you're not going to have a job, none of that. I think that you shouldn't worry about that. I think that, coming back here, you can make friends, too. You can have a new life. Yeah. I don't know.

Anne: So have you gotten back to school yet? Or are you in the process of trying to do it?Edgar: I'm trying to right now, yeah. I'm trying to go back. But I don't know how to go. And then, what papers I have to take or anything like that. I don't know if they would evaluate the papers or if I would have to start it all over. I don't know. I don't know any of that. Yeah.

Edgar: They were pretty much graduating high school. It got kind of hard over there. And here, I'm trying to graduate high school. And then, go to college. And then, I'm trying to, I don't know when I'm trying to graduate, but I want to graduate. And my dreams are probably, live the American life. Have a good car, have a wife. All that. And I didn't think I would be able to do that over there.

Edgar: I think it did, yeah. I think I'm different. I'm not really... I'm Mexican but I have a different mindset, now that I lived over there. I think that gave me pretty much a good opportunity advantage. I think differently than people here. Yeah.

Anne: So what pulled you out of the depression?Edgar: What pulled me out? I think pretty much going to the gym, going…finding out about New Comienzos. I came here to talk to them. And then, I knew that there were actually people that talked English. I thought they weren't any, but there are. And then, yeah. That pretty much pulled me out. I kept coming every day, every day. And then, different environment pretty much put me in a different mindset of not being home all day, eating. Yeah.

Edgar: Yeah, I've been to juvie jail. I've been to juvie for half a year for violating my probation.Anne: After? Because you were smoking weed?Edgar: Yeah. Yeah. Like 10th grade, I got probation for bringing weed to the school. And, yeah. I had court, went through all that, got half a year in juvie. And then, never went back. But then, I went to jail. I went to jail but not for that much. Only for one week for being drunk.Anne: Public drunkenness?Edgar: Yeah. Public, yeah. Yeah. But I never had to bail out, nothing like that. Nothing big. Nothing big at all.Anne: So you served your time in jail and then got out?Edgar: Yeah, yeah, yeah.Anne: And they never got you? ICE never came to get you?Edgar: No.

Anne: Did you miss your family?Edgar: I did. I do, a lot. Yeah. My brother and my mom. A lot, a lot. Well I talk to them like every day, through the phone. But, yeah. I do want to go hug them, be with them, and all that.

So I came with my grandma. I told her. I called her and asked her if I can go live with her. She told me, "Yeah. I can go.”Anne: So you were in Mexico City?Edgar: Yeah. Well not here. State. Mexico State. Ecatepec. And yeah, I went to go live with her. Got a little bit of depression. Because I didn't know. I didn't have a job, I didn't have nothing. I was getting fat.

Edgar: Well I didn't really think I had a future out there.Anne: In the US?Edgar: Yeah. Because I didn't have the DACA anymore. To work a real job, I needed the social security. And I didn't have that either.

Edgar: So back here, I ended up, I actually came with a friend. We didn't land here. We landed in Guadalajara. Then, from there, we went to Michoacán with his family. I don't know why. But one day, we just decided we're going to come back. We didn't really think about that we couldn't go back after we got here. So, yeah. When we got here, we were like, "Damn. Now what do we do? Now that we can't go back."

Edgar: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I got into, I went to the job of plumbing. I got into plumbing with my uncle. He helped me try to learn plumbing. And then, started working. And then, I just started hanging out with my friends a lot, smoking weed, drinking, doing bad stuff.Anne: So that wasn't very good for your job.Edgar: No, not really. So then, after two years, I quit and just started hanging out every day. Making money out of weed, too.Anne: Selling weed?Edgar: Yeah. Yeah, pretty much.Anne: Were you in a gang?Edgar: No, never. But I did have a lot of friends that were in a gang. But I never really got into that at all.Anne: Okay. So you were selling weed and that's how you were supporting yourself?Edgar: Yeah. That and my brother just would give me...whenever he could, he would give me money. He was working in a restaurant in Palo Alto. And, yeah. He would help me out. Whenever I told him I needed money, he would give it to me.

dgar: But when the DACA DREAM Act, when I got the DACA, it really helped me a lot. I could have got the license to drive but I don't know why I didn't. I didn't do that, either.Anne: So when did you apply for DACA? How old were you?Edgar: I was like 15, 16. Around that time. Yeah. My mom actually told me about it. And she told me I have to apply, that I couldn't let that opportunity go.Anne: Did your brother apply?Edgar: I don't think... No, he didn't. He didn't apply. I don't know why. Yeah. Yeah.Anne: So you applied and you got your papers?Edgar: Yeah. They gave me a meeting. I went there, got a passport, got my social security. And, yeah. I got a job. I could do more stuff with it than without it.Anne: And you had to stay in school.Edgar: I had to, yeah. I had to. I had to.Anne: So did that give you any more incentive to stay in school or were you still smoking weed?Edgar: It did. But, no. I really didn't care either, though. I didn't renew it, though. I had to renew it. I don't know how much they give you for that, DACA?Anne: Every two years.Edgar: Every two? Yeah, I think I only had it for two years then. I didn't renew it because I didn't go to school no more. Yeah.

Anne: So in high school, you're not liking school as much. When did you figure out that you were undocumented? Or did you know it all along?Edgar: No. I think I found out... I thought about it. But I found out, I was like around eight years old.Anne: Eight years old?Edgar: Yeah. Yeah. Watching the TV and everything, watching people getting deported. And, yeah. My mom pretty much told me that we were undocumented. That's when I found out.Anne: Did she tell you to be careful or...Edgar: Well not really to be careful, nothing like that. But just that we're not from here. We're from Mexico.Anne: So as you're growing up, how did you feel when your friends were getting their licenses and starting to drive cars?Edgar: Oh, man. Yeah. It felt different. It felt way apart. Not like, I don't belong with them. Like I wanted to get that but I couldn't.

Anne: So what made you stop liking school?Edgar: Just got into... Well my friends, they were into another type of environment. We were more into ditching and going out, having fun, partying. And I followed them. And, yeah. I wouldn't like to go anymore. But that happened in 11th grade or 12th grade.

Anne: So did you enjoy school?Edgar: I did, I did. I really did. I liked going a lot. I wouldn't miss one day. But then, yeah. When I got older, I went to high school, I didn't like going anymore.Anne: So you were a kid, and you liked it. And you...Edgar: Yeah. I liked it. And then, I didn't.Anne: Uh-huh (affirmative). What did you like about school as a kid?Edgar: I liked…I really liked learning.Anne: Uh-huh (affirmative).Edgar: I really liked writing, learning, learning new stuff that I didn't know. And I liked the environment that I had with friends. And I liked the food. I liked it a lot. I liked the library, too. Because I love to read.Anne: That's great.Edgar: Yeah.Anne: Did you do anything like sports or art or music or anything like that?Edgar: We were doing art. And then, around middle school, I did the saxophone.Anne: Oh!Edgar: And drums. Yeah. I really liked it a lot, too.

Anne: Had you been living with grandparents before then?Edgar: Yeah. With my grandma, all my life.Anne: Was it hard to leave her?Edgar: Well, young…I don't think that it hurt me like that. But when I got older, yeah. I thought about, "Why did I leave her? Why?" I should have been with her, yeah.Anne: And was your dad there, too? In the States?Edgar: My dad? No. My dad, he left when I was like two. But when I got there to California, my mom had already married another guy. So I had a stepdad. And it was kind of weird. I didn't know him at all. And we were living with him. Yeah. He was kind of... What do you call it? Kind of weird. Kind of demanding.Anne: Was he also Mexican?Edgar: He wanted to take power…Yeah, from Puebla. From Puebla, Mexico.Anne: Did he have papers or was he...Edgar: No, he didn't. He didn't, either. I don't know how they met. But when we went, they were already together. Yeah.Anne: So he was hard on you?Edgar: Yeah. A little bit, a little bit. He had another…he had a kid, too. So I had a step-brother. And he would treat him with a lot of power over her, demanding and shit. And he would try to do that with me and my brother but my brother wouldn't let it happen. So, yeah.

Edgar: Okay. Well, I left when I was five-and-a-half years old. My mom wanted me to be here with her. She was already over there. We lived in California, East Palo Alto. And she wanted…me and my brother actually went over there. We went through the car, though. We went through the line. So we didn't have to struggle going, jumping over the border. Nothing like that.Anne: Who was driving the car?Edgar: Her friend. My mom's friend. Yeah. They hired him to come and get us, pick us up.

Donovan: It wasn't, I don't want to say that it was nice, but it wasn't bad. They gave us really good to eat. The only thing that I didn't like, when I got boarded in the Oakland airport, that I got did the whole transportation to , they made us stay three days awake. You go on the plane, then it's on bus. Then you send you from shelter to shelter, and it's just, you're inside a basketball court, a school court full of 400, 500 people. You sleep wherever you want to. It's just, and then they wake you up, you almost never sleep. I remember that I was 72 hours awake and it was just crazy. It was just hectic. But once get into the immigration center, it's pretty chill.

Donovan: It was hard. It was really sketchy because I never knew Mexico. I went out there and when I was two years old, so my mom tells me that my first language was English. I didn't even talk that good when I would two years—I did talk a little bit—but she said you went there and you learned English so fast. She was like, that's your native language. And you could hear it a little bit when I talk Spanish. You don't hear it that much, but if you pay very, very close attention to how I express myself, you can tell it's not the way it regular person from here expresses himself.

Donovan: It's amazing. I loved it. I went to Canada to go dance. South Dakota, where Custer’s Last Stand was. You know how they have that little cemetery with so many bodies are underneath? I met Apaches, all types of native people. It's amazing. I actually was leader of the group, because that's a youth group. It's called - [inaudible 00:08:49]. That's the group name, and I was leader of the group for three years. The teacher fell in love with me. She was like, that's the reason why she adopted me too.

Donovan: It's depressed. You feel like you're alone. You feel like you're worthless. And then you feel sometimes like this is what I deserve. Well personally me, because I haven't been a good person. I'm not going to lie. I've done a lot of bad shit, but this is what I deserve. This is what I did in my life. This is what I caused for myself. If I were to listen to my mom, it would have been a little bit different. But you feel just like a loner, and then you come here and they segregate you because you can't talk good Spanish. So it just, you feel like a piece of shit. If you're not able to handle it, it tears you apart. It's really hard. But the food of Mexico is amazing. The culture here is, you see really where your roots come from. You're like, “Damn, I'm a fucking amazing person. Who has culture like this?” I don't think there's like another country that can compare itself to Mexico, in the food, the culture, in all that's happened to us. When I was younger with the same teacher that adopted me, she's an Aztec dancer. I had already knew about the Aztec culture. I was an Aztec dancer when I was smaller, so I'm really fond of Aztec Mayan culture. She's Native American, she's Apache. She sent me a lot, and then you look at that and like, now I see why Mexican people are so happy, why we are so up and going. Because that's how you got to be out here—you got to stick out like a sore thumb.

Well, when I was younger, I was really into gangs. I sold a lot of drugs when I was younger. My mom kicked me out the house when I was 15, because I couldn't have that around little brothers. I have a younger brother from my stepdad and my mom. And I'm 11 years older than him. He's 21 right now, just a baby. At the moment I'm like, “Why would you kick me out? I'm 15 years old.” But then I see it and I see they couldn't be around that. They would see that lifestyle. I was making a lot of money, so they would see that lifestyle, and, of course, everybody as a human being wants to go the easy way. They don't want to struggle. If my sister would've saw that, God knows what she would have been like. Or my little brother would've saw that, God knows where he would have ended up too.Anita: What was the attraction for you of the gangs?Donovan: I don't know. Just respect more than anything. Just having people back you up. Just not ever feeling scared, not even feeling vulnerable. Make sure that you always have—we were actually the only family that went to the State; all my other family's right here, so I never had a family over there—like a family intuition, and also just having people around you

My mom never even told me that I never had papers, until I got a little bit older in age. But it was frustrating that I'm not able to unravel my full potential. I had a lot of scholarships that got shot down, because of my status.Donovan: They disqualified me for a lot of scholarships, because of my status, so it's frustrating. Then you have my sister on the other side who's only three years younger than me and she's officially a lawyer, immigration lawyer, in San Francisco. She just passed the state bar exam three weeks ago.Anita: Wow.Donovan: Yeah. And it's, I don't know, I feel like I needed to be something big because of my moms, all that she went through. My dad passed away when we were four in a car crash. But it was just frustrating to see everybody else, “Well I can get this scholarship because of this, or I can go work here because of that.” And I'm like, I've always been a hard worker and I see them people that are just half assed. They have papers so they can be half ass.

Carlos: The most important one is finish high school. After that, I want to study software engineer, and I like it a lot. I like it a lot. I want to get into a good job. Right now, I have a girlfriend. When I needed it, she was there for me. I have a very good relationship with her, and I feel a lot of love for her. If things can happen in the future, I'm willing to take it. I'd take it. I'll take it because not a lot of girls will help you the way she helped me, because most of them are not interested on who you are or what you need, and she was in the moment when I needed it.

Over here, you speak Spanish. Here, the system of education for English is very bad. It's very bad. I always try to hear music in English, and read books, and stuff like that, and watch movies in English because if you don't practice it, you'll forget it. You'll forget it. Once you're older, it is very difficult or is more difficult to learn a language than when you were little. Getting back here was [Pow sound].Carlos: They even thought it would be better if I started middle school, but from the beginning, not onto the third grade that I was supposed to be. No, in first grade because I didn't know Spanish, and most of the subjects that are needed for Spanish. I was great in English. They took my English classes away so I can retake Spanish, but on second level. They were testing me if to keep me on third grade, or going back to first grade. I did good. My grades were good. You know what? Kept them there when I finished middle school. What's been a little bit of problem is high school, because I was still... It's not easy to forget old habits. In that moment, school was like, I care about it, but not 100%. Since I like soccer, I used to go and play soccer in my time in class and all that. That was a problem. The distraction, soccer, then all those things I didn't know and stuff like that. They even paid me classes for Spanish and for another subject into Spanish, so I didn't really have a hard time. I spent two years in those classes. After that, I'm normal. I can talk Spanish normally and all that stuff.

Carlos: Yes, very hard. Very, very hard. Mostly because I was so into English and the subjects—well, I don't think they differ a lot, but obviously history isn't the same. Most of the things aren't the same. Civics aren't also the same. They have different ones here or there. Spanish, they have here Spanish, that's a subject. I was like, "What are these?" They have little, I don't know, like this. This thing right here. [pointing to accents]

Carlos: It was hard because I felt sad at the moment not being with my dad and my brothers. Another part, I felt kind good because I had my uncles and my grandpas. One of my uncles that lived here is one of the ones that I loved the most, apart from my dad. That was kinda a relief. You put something bad and put another good thing on top of that, it just kind of mixes, and at the end, I'm here. That's what I think, right?

I don't remember a lot of stuff, mostly because what hit me was being separated from your dad. I can tell you that with my mom and my dad, I have lived all my 20 years. I got to see my two brothers little. Right now, they're older. Some point, that's why. Maybe I was distracted, or I don't remember about things because I just cared about my family, about my dad and my brothers.Carlos: My cousins, for instance, I had a really good relationship with them. Yeah, I think that's the most difficult part. But I had to pass at that time, you know? I really appreciate my grandparents for taking care of me, even though I'm not their child. They took care of me, and they're still taking care of me, even though I'm older. I have my own life. I can go places. I just go basically to sleep. I get Saturdays and Sundays off. I'm barely at their house, but I really appreciate it, that they took care of me.Carlos: Most of the times, I think about what would be different from living with my parents than my grandpa. You know, It's hard. It's hard. Maybe when you're a kid, you don't realize it, you just live. But once you truly know the love for your family, for your parents, it hits you. Not having my dad and my mom when I was in my important point of my life, a teenager. Right now that I’m 20. I haven't been with my dad so he can't support me. He can't give me that advice, that hug that maybe you would like, right?Carlos: He does give me advice through the phone, but it's not the same you know? He also send me money quite often, but I always say that the most important thing is being with your actual family than all the economic stuff or the money. Most important thing is the love and the relationship you have with them.

Yeah. It was very fun. It was very different. Each country has a different way of their system of education. What I liked a lot is that mostly you get free lunch up in the States, and you get a lot of courses that are free, and summer activities in school, and they're also free. That's very different because right here, you got to pay for them. I liked it a lot. It's different. I remember my school, they had a big park for a court of tennis, basketball, baseball.Anne: Did you play sports?Carlos: Yeah, I did. I loved soccer, but in that time, I also played basketball. I also, how do you call it? Running?Anne: Track? Track?Carlos: Yeah, I like track. Yeah, exactly, and a little bit of baseball, too.Anne: That's cool.Carlos: Yeah, it is very cool.Anne: How about other types of activities at school? Did you do art? Did you do music?Carlos: Yeah, I did music for some time. I also did chess, but they're not my strong, right? I also did robotics, something like that. Yeah. Mostly I was up into physical education.

It was fun. I really enjoyed it. I got to make a lot of friends there. I still talk to them. I still have more than my dad. I have cousins, uncles, aunts mostly.

Carlos: Yeah, in ___ Oregon. What basically they told me after the 10 days, "All right, you need to come back to Mexico." I needed to come back, so that's why they deported me. I don't know what, but they got it, too, with the lawyer and the judge and everything, but I had to come back to Mexico. After that, after my grandma knew about that, she came back immediately because she has been taking care of me for almost 19 years. Almost 20. Yeah, almost all my life.

Carlos: It's a long story. I had some friends—they were African Americans, Mexicans, also some from the States. I hanged out with them for a long time, but I didn't notice in that time, but it started getting, doing bad things and stuff like that. One day we were playing out, one of them had a car. One of them had a car. I remember it was a Corvette. An old one, though. Not like the one they have here, right?Anne: Yeah, cool.Carlos: Yeah. What basically got me in trouble was me being with them, because we were just hanging out. Supposedly, I thought we were just hanging out in the car and taking them for a ride, but what they did is go rob a pharmacy. I remember it was a Walgreens pharmacy. Everything went bad. In that instance, I didn't know what was happening. I thought they just wanted to buy something. The police came, and I got in trouble. There was some snitching there because the friend that was with the car, I think he found out about something and he left. I was with them.Carlos: That happened to be troublesome for me because one of them snitched, and they pointed out that I was there, too. Basically, I didn't do nothing bad, but I was at the wrong place and in the wrong moment, so that got me, a bad decision to me and everything, and all that happened.Anne: You were 15?Carlos: 15.Anne: Just a child.Carlos: Yeah. Teenagers. Brand new teenager.Anne: Were you part of a gang?Carlos: No, but they were, but I didn't know that. After, they told me. The one that I stuck with, he actually told me, "Hey, you know what? After they snitch"—and he knew—he was like, "Hey, you know what? You're about to get in trouble. We're in a gang." I really don't remember the name of the gang. They robbed, and they were just out for some money. I think in that moment, I didn't realize, but they took drugs.

It was fun. I really enjoyed it. I got to make a lot of friends there. I still talk to them. I still have more than my dad. I have cousins, uncles, aunts mostly.

Brenda: I think being a little bit more … From what I've seen it's to become a little bit more accessible. But the program or all the stuff that they have going on for people if they want to go into school—I have so many friends who are like, “I started it and I still haven't finished. I'm getting all my stuff translated, getting whatever”—having it be more like, maybe, have someone help throughout the process or more available to help throughout because it sometimes feels like a secret like, "Oh, I can go to college here, I didn't know." That's a really hard thing and I think a lot of people would love to go to school if they could.

I know for me I've never wanted to go back again illegally. Why am I going to struggle again or get in trouble or be anxious all the time, an anxiety I can't describe? It affects you in so many ways and your mental health and your mental well-being. But I think, and I'm sure a lot of people feel that same way coming back here, just for the sake of at least mental health and overall well-being, taking a second look at a lot of people's stories or how it affects them leaving the only place that they've known for their whole life consciously. And how it affects families splitting apart because I know my family has been in the downfall since we both left years ago.Brenda: I can't imagine going back to that family, that's not a family I recognize quite anymore. It affects a lot of people that you might not assume get affected. People that are there illegally and siblings … But just that, how much it can affect in so many ways

I do want to go to school. It's been something for the last few years. At my last job I had to work, I had a day of like ten and a half hours and then I had two-hour commute. So that ate up most of my time, and I was just coming home to sleep basically. But I loved my job very much. I was like, “Oh, I don't need school right now. I'll figure it out eventually.” And five years went by and right now I'm like, “This is kind of the perfect job for school because it's so relaxed.” I am off on Fridays, I'm off Saturdays. I work from home a lot of days. But it's a lot of stuff that I have to ask my parents to do over there to go get my documents and stuff apostilled—I think it's called—or certified and then I have to translate them.Anne: All your education documents or transcripts and all that stuff.Brenda: Yes. So, I can eventually go to school here. Then there's this fear of like, "Oh my God, what if I don't get into any of the public schools?" Because I'm like, "No, I want to go to one of the public universities" and if I don't, that's another cost and now it's like I don't want to leave work because I like working and I'd have to do it on the weekends. Then in my head, I'm already like, "Oh my God, am I already not struggling through to balance a schedule I don't even have yet." I'm just already stressed about it [Laughs]. But I do, basically, it's to go back to school because I do miss it a lot and I do enjoy it.

Brenda: Probably. Sometimes I have very optimistic ideas about certain things. I think that—not as a judgment towards anyone—I'm a good kid over there. Sometimes a lot of it was because of fear of if you get in trouble. You need to hang out with good kids, and you can't be like … I was always told not to hang out with other Hispanic kids because eventually too many of us would make people nervous or something. So, don't do that. Don't get into trouble. All of these things made me a very anxious person growing up. But I was always like, “No, because if something happens to me or the police were to find me for whatever I might be doing, apparently, it would involve everybody. We'd all be in trouble.” Here I think I would still do the same because up until a couple of years ago my grandpa was like, “You can't go out.” I'd be like, “Okay.” I'm still very obedient. All right, I don't want to get in trouble, and I don't want to get into arguments with anyone.

Brenda: With all the performing arts things I did, I really wanted to go into theater and major in theater and live in New York and that kind of thing. My parents would be like, “No, if you end up going to college and we end up having to pay for it out of pocket, you need to get something that's a real job. [Laughs]. That's nice, but not like a real job.” I was like, “All right, well, I'll figure it out.” So, I think that's what I mainly wanted to do. I wanted to go to college. I wanted to have the whole American experience of university and eventually move out and go to a big city. We had visited New York in one of the trips, I think a band trip during high school, and I liked it so much and I was like,“I want to move here, and I want to, whatever.” So, I think that's what I mainly wanted to do.

Brenda: Yes, but they were born over there, so it's different. When I left, they were three and five. Since I couldn't work and I couldn't drive or anything, I've always babysat them. I was their mom up until some point because my mom worked most days and so that was really hard because now the oldest is fourteen and the next one is twelve so it's a whole world of difference. The three-year-old when I left, he thought I was his mom. My mom told me that when I left on the bus he was like, "Brenda come back, I'll be good. I promise." He was just crying and crying. [Emotional]Anne: I'm sorry.Brenda: It's been a while and now it's just … One is a teenager and she had to deal with my family drifting apart when us two left. A lot of things happening because my mom had a hard time dealing with half of her children being here. So, the oldest is very straightforward, very grumpy sometimes. It's always weird because I think about her when she was five and now, and I'm like so much responsibility fell on her when I left. [Emotional] And the little one [Chuckle], he always says “Hi” to me, but he doesn't remember me as well anymore because he was two or three when I left. So, I think them too, they're the hardest part [Sniffles].

I was supposed to come here and then we were eventually going to have a meeting at the consulate in Juarez and then be able to go back at some point.Anne: What happened? Why didn't it work out?Brenda: We waited a long time. It was about a year and a half because everybody was like, “It's going to be about three or six months, three or six months.” And that passed, we were finally stuck there and it was because of the Hague Convention—if I'm not mistaken—which is like an international adoption thing that a lot of countries sign into to try to avoid human trafficking for children. Everything that we did with my aunt, which was technically live with her for two years, begin the adoption process before I was fifteen. All of these things that we did, we were supposed to have done them here in Mexico. And we tried to dispute it because we were like, "We've never lived in Mexico and my aunt's not from Mexico. Why would we go to Mexico to do this?" So they're like, "No, but you can keep appealing it. But that's the process, you were supposed to do all of that in Mexico." The point is that we didn't want to, there was no reason for us to go to Mexico. We've never been there, my brother left when he was one and I was three. So, we were always in the US and so it didn't get declined completely, it just got, I guess, on hold and it's been like that for the last—when did this happen—like five, six years? So on my end, I'm good being here. I like being here, but it's because of my brother and his autism and he's very much in his own world of his habits and what his plans are and everything. It was really hard for him to come.Brenda: It was a complete disruption to his routine. It was a complete—like being away from his parents, being with people he didn't really know that well. Being in a different country, like language he doesn't speak as well—everything was hard. So, I don't touch that process because I know it's technically still going on and the hope is that one day he can go back. Me, I'd be happy to just go visit once, maybe often. But for him, because for him, it's so important to go back to the US.

Brenda: We started the immigration process when I was fourteen, I think. My aunt adopted us, she is a US citizen, and the whole thing was supposed to be super easy peasy. She adopted my brother and I, and legally we lived with her because she lived across the street—we lived with my parents, but she was across the street and formally she was our parent. It was supposed to be like, “Here, you're her daughter and you get papers right away.” It was not that simple or easy. Our attorney just said, "You do have to leave the US" and I was like, "But when?" I was already eighteen. I was like, "When?" It's like, “Oh, I don't know.” No one ever included me in the process of what had to be done. So, I had to look it up myself and see at eighteen and I don't know how many days old, your time starts counting as an illegal alien. I was like, "All right. So, no one's checked on this. I have months till I have to leave.”

Brenda: When I was going to graduate, the town that we lived in, Tahlequah, had a small regional college and Northeastern State. My plan was like, “Well maybe I can just get a job at the restaurant, whatever, save up money,” because they did accept people without any papers. But obviously, you paid a lot more money. I was like, I guess I’ll do that, or I'll figure out what to do. Eventually, as the time got closer and we knew I was going to have to come to Mexico, I was like, “Well maybe we'll see.” I just kept saying like, “We’ll wait and see,” because I did want to do my college in the US because that's what I knew up until then.

Brenda: He did well. My brother has autism, he's on the autism spectrum. So, when we went to California, about a half a year in he got diagnosed because he hadn't started talking and he wasn't really very communicative with us. Then we moved to Arkansas. We made sure he always got into a lot of programs and got a lot of help, as much as he could. He always went through all special Ed. throughout school and he seemed to enjoy it. He seemed to like it a lot. They did a lot of activities I think otherwise he wouldn't have done. Throughout high school he started getting more grumpy and like more hormonal and sometimes he wouldn't want to join in with stuff, but overall he enjoyed it a lot.

Anne: How did you like school?Brenda: I loved it. I was always happy going to school anywhere that we went, and I always did well grades-wise and I always did a lot of extracurricular activities.Anne: What were your favorites?Brenda: I did theater—I love theater—and I did marching band and choir. So those three, I did all through high school and some middle school and I loved those a lot.Anne: Which instruments did you play?Brenda: Clarinet.Anne: So, you had the ideal American childhood and education?

Brenda: I felt it was good. I know when we're pretty young, up until a certain point, we did struggle financially a lot. Sometimes we lived with multiple families or a lot of our family that were coming over from Mexico. So little by little—I think I shared a room with my brother until I was ten or twelve until we finally were able to get separated into our own rooms. But overall, I just remember always being with my parents and always feeling very, I guess happy they were together, and everybody was there. There was always a lot of people everywhere.

Brenda: He was like, "Okay, are you guys serious?" Like, "Yes, we eat all of those." “All of those?” “She buys us five cereals every time we go to the grocery store so you can buy those as well.” It was like, “All right.” So, I just remember being like, "Oh my gosh, this is so nice." Everything was, it seemed at least I think in my head, cleaner and I was with my dad and we were all together. So, I was just really happy when we got over there.

Sure. My dad left for the US when I was about two years old. He was there for about half a year, a year, before my mom, my brother and I went to join him. I was three when we went over there. So I was very little. I just remember he would call, and he would say like, “Are you going to be good? You sure you guys want to come over there?” Because my mom still wasn't very sure if she wanted to move over there.

Now I don't want to be a nationality. I want to be a human. If aliens from different planet come, they're going to be, "Oh, wait, not the Mexicans because they're cool. Not the Americans." No, they're going to say, "Hey, all of you are humans and we're going to take over." I hope it never happens, but I don't think I want to be Mexican. I don't think I want to be American. I just want to be human. I think because if we are placed in that category of just a nationality, then it reduces everything because people categorize. Even in movies, they say, "Best Mexican actor," or something like that. Like, "No. He's an actor or an actress. He or she shouldn't be categorized as best Mexican or best Hispanic. They're humans. They have the talent just like anybody else."

Because we're a big community. If they want our vote, they need to start to care. A lot of us, it's going to be either the first or second time that we vote. They have to start caring and start to look into our community because we're also Mexican, but we're not Mexican from here, we're Mexican from another place. They should care because if they want our vote, they should also start looking into that. Yeah.Anita:Do you think you bring special skills that they're missing?Sylent:Yes. Yes. English. Mexico is – I hear they want to make Mexico in the next 20 years to become bilingual. They can't do that without us. They can't. They can try, but it's like learning Spanish in the United States. You'll learn it, but you're not going to learn Spanish like we do in Mexico. We have that. We have both Spanish from here and both English from there. They should start to look into that. I don't know how to answer that. Yeah.

It was good for that part but at the same time I did feel discrimination by my own people because they were saying, "Hey, you're American. What are you doing here?" Like, "Well, I'm Mexican. I was born here," because my Spanish wasn't good. Even still today it's not the best. They're like, "You need to learn how to speak Spanish." I said, "I do speak Spanish, just not as well." It's like, "You need to learn how to speak English." My defense has always been like that, "Yeah, okay, you too."

[53:02] Yeah. Maybe not coming back. I was really excited. I was like, "Oh, yeah. I'm going to go back to Mexico and everything's going to go perfect because I'm Mexican." I came back and I tried to go to school. It was too expensive. I either had to work or study but I didn't have the money to study. I wanted to be a welder. I tried to do it here in Mexico, but they didn't pay at all. They didn't pay well at all. My uncle told me to become a teacher. I didn't want to, obviously. Who wants to be a teacher of other children? I saw the potential. All my cousins say, "Hey, you teach me English because they're asking me at my job to have a percentage." Friends telling me, "Hey, teach me English," or including meeting girls. They were like, "Hey, you speak English? You should come teach me." "Oh, yeah. Why not?"

[49:44] Then my dad came back and then I was living with my mom. I guess that was one of the most difficult part of my life was being with my mom and watching her struggle because I couldn't really work because I didn't have the papers. She could because she also had an illegal name there. She wasn't working under her name. She had another person's papers. She was able to work, but instead of my dad helping her out, it was on her. Of course, she had car payments, rent, bills. That's when I saw and I said, "Hey, I need to do something. If I stay here, all I am doing is causing my mom to spend more money." So, I told her, "Hey, I think I'm going to go back." Then I came to Mexico. She still stayed there. She was probably there for 20 years. But she moved to a different city.

I remember that day I was crying back home. I said, "How can people just, I don't know, how can they discriminate if really if we take out our skin, we're the same on the inside? We both have flesh and bone. We're going to bleed the same." I'm like, "It doesn't matter where you're from. We're the same on the inside." I guess that was one of the few things because I worked with American people my whole life. They gave me jobs, they fed me, they would invite me into their house. Some people had pools, said, "Hey, we're going to have a pool party and I want you to come because you're one of my workers." Christmas parties where the company invites the whole co-workers to eat. I don't think I felt it until that day and until I arrived to prison.

I don't know. I don't think it was maximum security, but it was a federal prison. I think it was called ____________ or something like that. I was there for a couple more months. It was the same thing in there. If you were Mexican, you had to be with Mexicans. There were people in there from Russia. There were people from all over the world. But it was a federal prison. I remember asking, "Is this an immigration prison or is this a federal prison?" "No, it's both. We keep both immigrants and… you know" Yeah, I did get scared a lot, especially with just being 18 years old and being with people who are either double my age or older. They really had gang tattoos all over their face. They had marks. They had a lot of things going on with them. I remember hearing stories that they did. I was like, "Wow."

Then they put us in a big cellblock, and they would ask me, "Why are you here?" I'd say, "Just being illegal." And then I would ask them, "Why are you here?" "Oh, first degree murder, armed robbery, possession of paraphernalia, drug trafficking." I was like, "Wow. Well, I'm just illegal." They were like, "Oh, don't worry. You're going to get out. You're not as bad as we are." I was like, "I hope not." It was whites, blacks, from other nations, Mexican, Hispanic people. It was everybody mixed. I do remember people just being with each other. White people being with them, and black people being with them. I said, "Why? Why can't we all just be together? It was like that at school, why can't it be here?" But I guess I started learning that racism exists, and you have to either defend yourself or defend your people.

Yes. I was driving. I was coming back from work. I had the truck. I had my father's truck. He had all the tools in the back, and I was just coming back from work. There was a checkpoint. I got pulled over. I had a permission that they give teenagers to drive. I remember giving that. Then they were asking me more questions and then I started getting nervous for some reason. Then they started questioning me, "Hey, why are you so nervous?" "You're here. I don't know what you're trying to do." Then they took me into the, I don't know how to call it, separos, where they separate you from– There’s a glass window and they just put you in a room. They make you take off your shoes. It's like a cell, like a big cell. I do remember looking at people and they're like, "Wow, man, these people really look bad. I'm just 18 years old. I'm just a child."

Well, January 6 is the Dia de los Santos Reyes Magos, so of course I wanted my toys. Then fourth of July was more like everybody doing firecrackers and of course I wanted to do that, too. When it was Dia de los Muertos, we celebrated a little bit different because we put an altar and we celebrate all our people who have passed away. Then the day before was Halloween, so we could dress up as whatever we wanted. Obviously, Christmas is both, but we mixed it because in the Mexican culture the Christmas is not only giving gifts, it's also doing, I don't know how you call them, when you go out and you sing songs, Christian songs-

I guess I grew up more with my grandma because she would go and come back. During summer, I would stay with my grandma more. Yeah, I did see my father a lot. Mostly my father. My mom was the one that was more time at her job because she became a supervisor of a company, so she had to be there most of the time. My father was just a construction worker so after a certain time, he can't work anymore because of the light. I grew up with my father a lot. My sister and I, he would take us to the park, take us swimming. I don't feel like I missed them too much. I always felt that we were a family. No, I don't think I got that experience. I do know of other friends that their parents were at work all day and he was by himself at the house. I was like, "Hey, just come over here. You can come play at my house." We had a trampoline and everything.

Then eventually it got more into music. Instead of fighting each other we would like rap and insult each other but in a more clever way. At the end of the day, "Okay, you did good. I like what you said about them," or "I like what you said about this." It's just part of the culture for me to grow like that.

Maybe we can start with your arms.Sylent:My arms.Anita:Illegal Mexican.Sylent:Yes.Anita:Where does that come from?Sylent:Well, since I learned that I was living illegally in the United States, I got discriminated for that. They would call me “illegal Mexican.” So I took that as a positive thing and said, "Yes, I am," and I felt like I needed to represent that not just for myself but for a whole generation because there's a lot of people just like me whose parents took them to the United States, and they struggled through the same thing. I felt that I needed to represent them.

The area where I lived there was all kinds of gangs. I did get affiliated. I didn't want to, but I guess I couldn't for some reason, or I did go out and hang out with them. I did do a lot of things that they did, but I never considered myself part of it. I thought I was just affiliated. I thought it was normal because everybody was doing it. Not only in my city but in other cities. I saw the TV, so I thought it was just something normal that teenagers went through and eventually they get back on track. I thought it was just part of being a teenager. I didn't really think I was, "Oh, I want to be the biggest gang member in the world." I just thought, "Oh, yeah, it's cool." I did want to be part of something, obviously. I didn't want to feel left out. I did have family members that did represent them more than that. I thought it was just normal.

I guess that first police officer, he was normal about it. He was like, "I'm just doing my job. You have to go here." Then once I got actually arrested, that's when things changed because they treated me like if I were an animal, or if I had done something really wrong. It wasn't the case. I did get in trouble like any normal kid. I don't know, maybe breaking something or with other guys playing in the street or fighting or things like that, but I don't know. I guess after I got arrested, and they put the handcuffs on me, that's when they started treating me like if I were a criminal. I said, "Why? I didn't do anything. I was only seven years old when I crossed." But I thought I crossed like everybody does. I guess it was after I got arrested that I started seeing the real discrimination with the authorities. In school, maybe just a typical guy that says, "Hey, you don't belong here." I would fight back saying, "Hey, you don't either because your ancestors are not even from America."

Eventually it became something that we represented. Other people knew that we were illegal so we took that another step and we said, "Yes. Yes, we are. We are illegal aliens. We are, but we're also Americans. We share the same traditions, we celebrate Thanksgiving, we celebrate the 4th of July." We had to be more Mexican than the Mexicans and more American than the Americans. That's how it started.

I do. I do think that they should help them. I mean, even with the simplest things like housing or provide shelters while they get on their feet, while they're able to find something where they can work and have a decent income. A lot of people here work for, like me, at my first job, I was paid thirteen pesos an hour. So I worked for six hours every day for thirteen pesos an hour. Now looking at it, it was like, why did you even approach that job? It's completely not, it's dumb. But a lot of people, even with my English, even with my knowledge, I worked for that income for about a year. So probably the hardest part if we hadn't come back and had somewhere to stay, would have been housing, somewhere to stay. I don't know, probably an easier way to find a job, a decent job to get back on your feet and be able to do something better for yourself because you're in your home country. It should be easier for you, but it's not. It's really not.

Laila: They were super, super happy. He was actually the first generation of our family to go to college. He wasn't able to finish because school was very expensive, and he didn't have a scholarship so it was very difficult for our parents. And as for my father got deported, well it was even more difficult for him to continue studying.

Honestly, just make it easier for somebody that is willing to work and willing to provide for a better future. Just give them an easier way to be there legally so they don't have to live with fear

Laila: Completely. Yeah. I actually wanted to finish high school and go to UCLA [University of California, Los Angeles]. I think they had a marine biology program there, and I wanted to go to UCLA. I had already told my parents, and they were like, "You're crazy. You're going to go to California by yourself. Like, what are you going to do there?"

Laila: It would probably have to be getting to know family members that you probably never thought of meeting, or people that, I don't know, they knew you when you were a baby and you don't even remember them. So it's probably the having a lot more family, because in the States it was just me, my mom, and my two brothers and that's it. We didn't have aunts, we didn't have uncles, we didn't have cousins, we didn't have our grandmother. We didn't have anybody and here it’s like, you have your grandma, you have your uncles, they all get together and they have parties and get togethers, cookouts or whatever. It's probably being able to meet more family members. That would be the only positive thing [Chuckles] that I would personally see being here back in Mexico.

Laila: I would say leaving my siblings and leaving my home practically. I considered the States being my home, completely. Coming to a place where [Chuckles] the third week that we came to live here, there was a car shot down, completely, and two people killed like right outside my house. That was really scary [Chuckles].

But they don't receive them. They say they're not valid here because they're not from the States. So we have to re-validate all of the studies, and all of the papers, and all that. It takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of money as well, to re-validate all of your studies so I just got completely frustrated, and I told my mom I didn't want to go back to school. But then when I started working, I saw that I did really need it, so I opted for finishing high school outside of the norm. I'm not going to school but I'm going to Saturday classes and all that, and I was able to get certified for high school. Yeah. But it is really hard to go into school here when you come back from the States when you're smaller because they don't accept anything. You just have to start from zero. So a lot of the subjects are different, or I [Chuckles] noticed a lot of the subjects that they teach are very different. It is difficult to go back to school [Chuckle].

Laila: It was scary for me, thinking that we were that close to a police officer. It came to the point where I was scared of the police, completely. I couldn't even trust them with, I don't know, an emergency or something because I knew that they might ask me for papers and I would be completely, I don't know, done at that point. I was actually my parent's translator since I was very young. They didn't have a lot of time to learn English, they just decided to work. So, since I was a child, I would always go with them into stores or places where they needed an English speaker, and I would do that for them. They received a lot of discrimination at various parts. We actually, my mom actually, got into a physical fight with a woman at a store because she called her a dirty immigrant and wetback. My mom physically got into a fight with her, and she was an employee of the store, and it wasn't even called for.

And since my father's deportation process was still—we were still going through that as well. I just had to go with my mom to a couple of hearings with her and translate what they were saying and all of the information and all of that.

The fear. The constant fear, that actually came true [Chuckles], of your family members being deported or coming home from school because since I was underage, I kind of knew that I was safe from that because they weren't going to raid schools, like middle schools and stuff like that. But it was a constant fear of coming home and being told that, I don't know, your dad's not coming back or your mom's not coming back. And it did happen like that. Unfortunately, my father was working and he was raided. So he got taken away and then when I came back home one day from school, my mom told me. It was really hard.

In Mexico, it's really hard to get an opportunity. A lot of people are where they are because they know someone [Laughs] or because they've paid to be there and it's really hard trying to be what they would say, the working class. Trying to work your way to a point where you know you're successful and you can say, "I've done a lot of things." But if you're not the cousin of the owner, or if you're not a family member related to somebody in power, it's like you don't have a chance.

I would say both even though I don't have a paper to verify that I'm from the States. I know the language, I know the history, I know a lot of more things from the States than I do for my own country. I would like to consider that I am a part of the States as well. [Chuckles]

My mom used to always say that we were kind of nomads because we weren't from the States. We were raised there but we're not from the States, but we weren't from Mexico either because we may have been born here, but we didn't know anything about it.

Once I came back it was just mostly me by myself with my parents.

I was happy because I got to meet a lot of family that I had never thought I'd be able to meet, but at the same time I was very sad and very depressed because I knew that it wasn't going to be easy for me to be able to see my brothers and my sister again. They are undocumented so they can't just come whenever they want to. It's been about ten years since I've been able to see them.

Laila: Yeah. I was sixteen. We left my siblings behind. I actually wanted to stay but I didn't have really anybody to help me out and take care of me at the time so I had to come back.

I didn't really get much of a chance to finish high school because my father actually got deported. So it was really hard leaving a life that you've known all your life.

She says that the first couple of times we were detained, they were just taken back and left at the border. Just go away, go home. There was one time she was actually carrying me. She actually carried me the whole time because I was three so and she says it was around rain time. The shrubs were very tall and all the spines and all that. She didn't want me to get injured, but she actually fell on a rock and got a hole in her knee and she couldn't walk. When the border patrol saw that, they aided her and they gave us water and they wanted to help her. They couldn't really give her medical treatment, but they just helped her get back across the border. She says that one of them told her to go home. Not risk her kids and there was no reason for that. [Pause] There was no reason for that [Chuckle], but I guess my mom says she's very stubborn. So she wanted to reunite her family and we were able to cross on the fifth time [Chuckles].

I vaguely remember it was very cold because it was nighttime. We actually got detained four times before being able to cross.