3,015 Matching Annotations
  1. Aug 2022
    1. Suppose we choose one Langevin observer and consider the other observers who ride on a ring of radius R which is rigidly rotating with angular velocity ω. Then if we take an integral curve (blue helical curve in Fig. 1) of the spacelike basis vector p → 3 {\displaystyle {\vec {p}}_{3}} , we obtain a curve which we might hope can be interpreted as a "line of simultaneity" for the ring-riding observers. But as we see from Fig. 1, ideal clocks carried by these ring-riding observers cannot be synchronized. This is our first hint that it is not as easy as one might expect to define a satisfactory notion of spatial geometry even for a rotating ring, much less a rotating disk!
      • I CAN NOT SEE FROM FIG1 WHY CLOCKS CANNOT BE SYNCHRONIZED
      • PLEASE, more detail, or another argument
    1. In 1921, Langevin gives the appropriate (relativistic) explanation in a very short note to theComptes rendus.
      • "the APPROPRIATE" EXPLANATION???
      • usa la "metrica" del disco en rotacion
      • pero en este articulo, se hacen "un monton de" aproximaciones
      • En la ref [42] se deriva de forma EXACTA las formulas para las diferencias temporales en cada sistema, que son DISTINTAS, y cuando se aproximan, son "IGUALES"
    2. this hypothetical medium, with its clearly very contradictory physicalproperties
      • son "PISTAS" de que "ALGO" pasa
    3. Finally, the quantum mechanical phenomenon predicted by Y. Aharonov and D. Bohm [48] can also be perceived assome kind of Sagnac effect (by replacing the light beams by charged particle beams (charge q) in the experiment, formallysubstituting the rotation ω by a magnetic field B and doing 8πλc −→ q in the relationship (3)) [49]
      • BUSCAR relacion con efecto AB
      • es solo "FORMAL"???
    4. A practical conclusion is that one cannot synchronize a collection of clocks distributed all along the Earthequator.
      • SIGO SIN ENTENDER
      • Si es "IMPOSIBLE" SINCRONIZAR RELOJES en el MISMO PARALELO (no solo el ecuador), auque tengan velocidades "lineales" similares...
      • entonces, ni hablar entre relojes de DIFERENTES PARALELOS!!!, con diferentes velocidades lineales, (y aceleraciones centrifugas diferentes)
    5. experiment carried out by Hafele andKeating in 1971 [44]. It consisted of the following. Two planes each equipped with an atomic clock flew around the Earth,one in the direction of the Earth’s rotation and the other in the opposite direction (the two clocks are synchronized atthe start). On arrival, it is observed that the two clocks indicate different times
      • HAFELE-KEATING-1971 experiement
      • SEE
    6. The subtlety is that the points D+ and D− reported in Fig. 4 are actually distinct and are identified only by abuse.
      • NO ES SUTILEZA=SUBTLETY
      • ES EL PUNTO CLAVE!!!
      • ver comentario a la Fig 2, donde "parece" que el punt Dr recibe "A LA VEZ", en el MISMO punto, los 2 "rayos/fotones"
    7. Fig. 4. Effect of no-synchronization of the clocks in a rotating frame
      • I DONT UNDERSTAND
      • Viendo solamente el diagrama, no entiendo la IMPOSIBILIDAD de sincronizacion de los relojes "moviles"
    8. Following Langevin, this expression is called the metric of the rotating disk. It will be noted the presence of a cross termin dθ dt, source of the impossibility of synchronizing clocks, uniformly distributed around the periphery of the disk andconnected thereto (a relativistic phenomenon which is the essence of the Sagnac effect)
      • varias cosas:
      • ROTATING DISK: mucho debate
      • "IMPOSIBILIDAD" de sincronizar relojes [SEE]
    9. 6 Also let us note that Paul Langevin is recognized as one of the first physicists to have defended the relativistic conceptions in France in numerousseminars; in particular the contributions of Einstein in the field, better known as they had been eclipsed in this country by the work of Poincaré on thesame topic.
      • OK, HISTORY
    10. Einstein considered this concept superfluous
      • Pero PORQUE no se "PUEDE" detectar (respecto a movimientos relativos), aunque existiera!!!

      • Por eso, las frases del estilo:

      • El eter "no existe"
      • Michel-Morley "demostraron" que la velocidad de la luz es constante
      • NO SON CORRECTAS!!!
      • El eter "no se puede detectar"
      • Si la luz fuera "inercial" (por ejemplo, lanzando pelotas, en vez de luz), tampoco se hubiera detectado nada, porque las pelotas llegarian al centro "A LA VEZ", y sin embargo las velocidades de las pelotas suman/restan segun hacia el lado que vayan!!!
    11. but more complete
      • Y con DIFERENTE INTERPRETACION!!!
      • La RELATIVIDAD de la SIMULTANEIDAD de eventos SEPARADOS espacialmente
    12. the observer O (inertial) now uses a coordinate system that accompanies the disk in itsrotation
      • INERTIAL??? IN ROTATION!!!
    13. Many derivations were in fact proposedall along the 20th century, issued from both special relativity and general relativity [41,42], even though the Sagnac effectis usually deemed to be a special relativistic effect [43].
    14. Propagation of the light beams seen from the laboratory
      • CUIDADO!!!
      • Si en vez de lineas, se "visualizan" "fotones" que salen del emisor en el mismo EVENTO ESPACIO-TEMPORAL:
      • Los 2 fotones, en sentidos contrarios, LLEGARAN al detector en MOMENTOS TEMPORALES diferentes, PERO TAMBIEN en puntos ESPACIALES diferentes!!!

      • En la figura 2, el "punto espacial" Dr, parece "sugerir" que llegan "A LA VEZ", no es correcto!!!

      • Sin embargo, el dispositivo EXPERIMENTAL, esta "MIDIENDO" lo que ocurre en los EVENTOS del detector

      • que corresponden a la "LLEGADA" al detector de "fotones" emitidos en TIEMPOS DIFERENTES!!!
    15. Let us specify however that the Sagnac effect wasalready derived from special relativity by Von Laue one year before Langevin [40]
      • OK
      • SEE: (articulo en ALEMAN)
      • Sobre Von Laue: ver wikipedia
      • (wikipedia): "He was a Privatdozent in Berlin and an assistant to Planck. He also met Albert Einstein for the first time; their friendship contributed to the acceptance and development of Einstein's theory of relativity."

      • Este DATO es MUY IMPORTANTE en la HISTORIA de la aceptacion de la RELATIVIDAD

    16. Eventually, in 1921, the mathematician (and relativist skeptic) Émile Picard asked Paul Langevin to demonstrate the effect inthe framework of the relativity, perhaps guessing it was impossible [39]. Again any such expectations and within a coupleof months, Langevin derived the effect from the General relativity [36]
      • SEE
      • y usando SR?
      • tal vez, por el movimiento de "rotacion"=="acelerado"???
    17. It appears rather amazing that the correct relativistic interpretation of the Sagnac effect took eight years. A seeminglyobvious reason is that Sagnac’s experiment was not very much discussed in the scientific literature, even in France afterthe discovery of 1913. 7 Conscious of this situation, in 1919, Sagnac published five papers on his work in the Comptes rendus[37]. The paradox is that his ideas were nevertheless borne by a French group of strong antirelativists. In 1919, Sagnac waseven rewarded with the Pierson–Perrin Prize for his achievements on this topic (first for the experiment, seen as a rebuttalof the relativity principle, the constancy of light, and also for having proven the reality of absolute space and time) [38].
      • "NARRATIVA" historica
      • SEE
    18. The first convincing explanation of the Sagnac effect, in the framework of relativity, was provided by PaulLangevin in 1921 [36]. 6
      • SEE
    19. An experiment such as Sagnac’s was still used as a strong argument by the opponents of the theory of relativity, whowere still quite numerous at the time, including Sagnac himself.
      • (I DONT UNDERSTAND)
      • Me falta informacion: BUSCAR!

      • Segun SR: en CUALQUIER sistema inercial que se tome como LABORATORIO para hacer el calculo, se obtiene el MISMO valor, ya que la velocidad que se le asigna a la luz en CUALQUIER sistema inercial es c, no SOLO en el sistema ETER

    20. experiment of Michelson and Mor-ley [5].
      • PARRAFO que "narra" historia
    21. But in science, an hy-pothesis cannot be validated only if it allows one to explain all the experiments, not one in particular.
      • OK
    22. For Sagnac, this result proves the existence of the aether.
      • (I DONT UNDERSTAND WHY?)
      • (lo que se me ocurre)
      • Sagnat "piensa" que desde OTRO sistema de referencia, en moviento respecto al ETER, la velocidad de la luz NO es c
      • Por lo que el CALCULO [BUSCAR] "deberia" dar un resultado DIFERENTE
    23. for an observer linked to the rotating disk the light speed propagates differently,according to whether the beam propagates counterclockwise (the direction of rotation of the disk by convention), or inreverse. It is then respectively c − v and c + v (Fig. 3). For the observer D, we have for the difference in time of course:tD = lc − v − lc + v  4 A ωc2 (4)which is in perfect agreement with the result found by the observer L
      • SAGNAT:
      • Sagnat: desde OTRO sistema de referencia, la velocidad de la luz es DIFERENTE de c
      • Pero el calculo da una diferencia IGUAL al valor desde ETER

      • ver siguiente comentario...

    24. According to Georges Sagnac, the light has amedium of propagation which is the aether. In the reference frame linked to the laboratory (observer L) the propagationvelocity (celerity) is c
      • CUIDADO
      • lo hemos comentado antes
      • Para Sagnac, el sistema LABORATORIO "debe" ser el sistema ETER, no es "cualquier" sistema INERCIAL (como para Einstein)
    25. The difference in the duration of travel induces a phase shift between the twowaves, hence the appearance of interference fringes (Sagnac made a differential measurement by rotating the disk in onedirection and then in the other). The phase shift (expressed in wavelength) is given by the Sagnac formula: φ = 8π Aωλc
      • SAGNAT
      • [PENDIENTE SEE]
      • Que calculo ORIGINAL hace Sagnat???
      • Lo que hemos visto de velocidad c, seria CORRECTO si el sistema INERCIAL donde se hace el calculo, es EL SISTEMA DEL ETER!!!

      • Pero, desde OTRO sistema de referencia, en movimiento relativo al ETER, "QUE" velocidad asigna Sagnat???

      • Si Sagnat era "defensor" del eter...

    26. The duration of the path of the light ray
      • ATENCION.
      • Hay que tener en cuenta algo que no ha dicho!

      • PRIMERO: al emitir la luz, el emisor esta YA EN MOVIMIENTO (al estar "fijado" al disco o cilindro)???

      • Es decir, se "asume", que el disco YA estaba en movimiento con velocidad W constante, ANTES de emitir

      • SEGUNDO: se "ASUME" que la velocidad de la luz, que recorre "L + dL", es "constante" (=c), y NO DEPENDE de la velocidad del EMISOR

      • Este es el SEGUNDO postulado de Einstein 1905
      • Es decir, se "descarta" la teoria de la "EMISION" (ver Ritz)
      • ver wikipedia

      • Es decir, esta IMPLICITA la validez de la teoria de la RELATIVIDAD ESPECIAL, en relacion a la velocidad c

      • Por otro lado (PENDIENTE por ahora), COMO afecta a la velocidad de la luz, la TRAYECTORIA CIRCULAR, o CURVA, en general???

      • No lo dice, pero en la PRACTICA, para "GUIAR" a la luz, se necesita un "medio" o "cavidad" donde se vaya REFRACTANDO/REFLEJANDO

    27. for the inertial observer, L linked to the laboratory
      • "LABORATORY"
      • "hasta ahora" habia entendido esta palabra como referente a "cualquier" laboratorio (o en general, cualquier punto) situado en la superficie terrestre
      • pero como la Terra esta girando, la superficie NO puede ser un "verdadero" sistema INERCIAL

      • [REINTERPRETACION] hay que entender el sistema de referencia "LABORATORIO" como "UN" verdadero sistema de referencia INERCIAL "IDEAL", SIN RELACIONARLO a la Tierra, sino una "abstraccion" para PODER HACER LOS CALCULOS del sistema, que se esta MOVIENDO RESPECTO a este sistema

      • "Dicen" que la "diferencia" entre el sistema de SUPERFICIE y el IDEAL INERCIAL es "pequeña"

      • Pero DEPENDE del CONTEXTO
      • que se lo digan a Coriolis y a los misiles baslisticos
      • cuando el experimento es "local", la diferencia puede ser pequeña, pero hay que calcularlo y comparar con la precision que se quiere medir
    28. In spite of the fact that all these experiments, taken together, showed that the aether wasan illusive medium
      • CUIDADO! "SHOWED"???
      • or IT IS an INTERPRETATION
      • (I THINK) "ALL" EXPs DIDN'T FOUND ANY EFFECT THAT COULD BE INTERPRETED RELATED TO AETHER (???)
    29. This aether was automatically identified with the absolute space of Newton.But the Earth moves in this absolute space
      • AETHER
    30. t is less known that Sagnac was a strong opponent to the theoryof special relativity proposed by Albert Einstein. He set up his experiment to prove theexistence of the aether discarded by the Einsteinian relativity.
      • SEE HISTORY
      • Another example: MILLIKAN (American)
      • LOOK FOR other examples

    Annotators

    1. The Sagnac effect and pure geometry Angelo Tartaglia and Matteo Luca Ruggiero

      American Journal of Physics 83, 427 (2015); doi: 10.1119/1.4904319

    2. it originates fromthe closure of the two space paths as seen in the frame co-moving with the emitter/receiver and from relative motionbetween the emitter/receiver and the mirrors (or physical de-vice). Indeed, its foundations are related to the relativity ofsimultaneity.
      • OK
    3. CONCLUSIONWe have shown that the Sagnac effect is due to the closureof the path followed by light and to the relative motion ofthe observer with respect to the physical system that causesthe beam to bend and come back to the observer
      • CONCLUSION!
      • OK
    4. Another aspect to clarify is related to the form of Eq. (2).The accidental presence of the area A suggested to somepeople (for instance, Refs. 25 and 26) an interpretation of theSagnac effect (at least for matter waves) as a sort ofAharonov-Bohm effect. However, this is just an analogy,which holds only at lowest relativistic order (see, e.g.,Ref. 23).
      • OK
      • es "INDEPENDIENTE" de la forma
      • Lo importante es que sea un "CAMINO CERRADO"
    5. It is worth noting that formula (1) also appears in Ref. 24,where it is related to the relativity of simultaneity typical ofspecial relativity
      • OK
      • ver ejemplos del vagon
      • tambien calculo de Einstein 1905, de donde obtiene el factor Lambda
    6. No rotation, acceleration, or enclosed area appears in thisexpression. What matters is just the existence of relative(even inertial) motion and of a closed path in space
      • CONCLUSION
      • "RECORDAR/COMPARAR" el ejemplo del vagon con emisor/receptor movil (desde sistema FIJO en el vagon!!!)
    7. moving emitter/receiver we would instead have (withb ¼ v/c)Ds ¼ 2 ‘vc2 ffiffiffiffiffiffiffiffiffiffiffiffiffi1  b2p  2 ‘vc2 :
      • for the proper time measured by the...

      • Aplica transformacion SR: Tfij = Tmov * Lambda

      • donde Lambda==L=1 / RAIZ(1-b2)
      • Tmov=propio=Tfij / L = Tfij * RAIZ(1-b2) < Tfij

      • Obtiene mismas formulas que antes, que son DISTINTAS, pero tras APROXIMARLAS, son IGUALES

    8. Eq. (1) is expressed fromthe viewpoint of an observer at rest with respect to the fiber(or array of mirrors);
      • Es el sistema FIJO
      • El emisor/detector se mueve
    9. Despite the widespread tendency to ascribe the Sagnaceffect to rotating systems, it is easy to show that rotation isnot essential. Consider a source/receiver of light in inertialmotion at speed v with respect to a set of mirrors rigidly fas-tened to one another or to an optical fiber so that they guidethe light beams emitted by the moving source along a closedpath in space.
      • OK!!!
      • JUSTO hace rato, intentando "visualizar" un ejemplo que NO FUERA CIRCULAR, por la DUDA sobre la velocidad de la luz en trayectoria CURVA
      • DETECTE LO SIGUIENTE:

      • comparando con el ejemplo TIPICO del TREN:

      • desde el "centro" de un vagon de tren, se emiten 2 fotones en sentido contrario (evento de emision), hacia los espejos de los extremos del vagon.
      • TANTO si se hace con vagon "EN REPOSO", COMO si se hace con vagon "EN MOVIMIENTO", los 2 fotones LLEGAN AL CENTRO "A LA VEZ" (evento de recepcion)
      • Si se piensa "en reposo" es inmediato (trivial, que dirian los matematicos): la luz va y vuelve, misma velocidad, recorren misma distancia, ya esta!
      • Si se piensa "en movimiento", y antes de calcular, si se "aplica" el principio de relatividad, la luz "debe" llegar "a la vez" (si no, podriamos "distinguir" los sistemas de referencia inerciales!!!)
      • IMPORTANTE: el evento de RECEPCION (UN PUNTO espacial-temporal) "DEBE", REPITO MUCHAS VECES, "DEBE" "verse" IGUAL en TODOS los sistemas inerciales
      • Pensar que el evento de recepcion es una EXPLOSION!!!
      • Para que en el sistema "en movimiento", lleguen "a la vez", desde el sistema "FIJO" hay que asignar a la velocidad de la luz emitida por el centro ("EN MOVIMIENTO!") del vagon, la velocidad c!!!

      • Es decir, la LUZ es NO-INERCIAL, y su velocidad NO DEPENDE de la velocidad del emisor!!!

      • la misma velocidad que desde el sistema FIJO!!!

      - bueno..., VOLVIENDO al caso Sagnat

      • Si ahora, el punto emisor dento del vagon "SE MUEVE"
      • Desde el sistema "FIJO", fuera del vagon: los 2 fotones, emitidos en el MISMO evento, llegan al detector en eventos DIFERENTES (ESPACIALMENTE y TEMPORALMENTE)
      • Primero llega el foton enviado hacia la pared hacia la que se dirige el detector
      • El detector sigue avanzando
      • Luego llega el foton enviado hacia la pared de la que escapaba el detector
      • son 2 eventos DIFERENTES (y aprovecho a decir que entonces en TODOS los sistemas inerciales, DEBEN ser 2 eventos DIFERENTES)

      • Y desde el sistema "MOVIL", el emisor/detector???

      • el emisor emite 2 fotones
      • el detector "no se mueve"
      • lo que se mueven son las "PAREDES", una se acerca y otra se aleja
      • Por el primer ejemplo, ya vimos que TODOS los sistemas inerciales deben "asignar" la misma velocidad c a la luz
      • Primero llega el foton enviado hacia la pared que se acerca
      • Luego llega el foton enviado hacia la pared que se aleja
      • son tambien 2 eventos DIFENTES (como esperabamos)

      • Y estas diferencias de tiempo?, son IGUALES, aunque se midan en DIFERENTES sistemas???

      • Pues...SON DISTINTOS!... pero esto ya lo habiamos visto en el comentario anterior, comparando las formulas calculadas

      • Se puede "entender" de la siguiente forma:

      • (parentesis) que ya indique en el comentario de la figura 3
      • ATENCION...: Desde el sistema con vagon FIJO y detector MOVIL, el "PUNTO" detector lleva un "reloj" que va MAS LENTO que los "suyos" (dilatacion temporal SR)
      • Los 2 eventos de recepcion:
      • desde el sistema vagon FIJO, los eventos de recepcion ocurren en 2 puntos separados espacialmente, y con 2 relojes "sincronizados"
      • desde el sistema vagon MOVIL, los 2 eventos de recepcion ocurren en el MISMO punto (detector fijo), usando el MISMO reloj!!! Por tanto, lo que mide es lo que se llama el "TIEMPO PROPIO"

      • Recordar el famoso experimento de los muones:

      • El tiempo "propio" de desintegracion se "dilata" y desde los relojes terrestes tarda "MAS" en desintegrase y puede largas distancias si va a mucha velocidad!

      • Para el caso Sagnat:

      • La diferencia temporal que se "mide" desde sistema FIJO es "MAYOR" que la diferencia desde el propio "emisor/receptor"
    10. The vertical straight line is the world line of an inertialobserver at rest with respect to the axis of the disk. Segment AB indicatesthe Sagnac effect as measured by the rotating observer
      • Fig 3
      • En este "diagrama de Minkowki" se ve:
      • Diferencia entre B y A desde el sistema FIJO es una linea "oblicua"
      • Y ATENCION: hacer "proyeccciones horizontales" de los puntos A y B sobre el eje "temporal" O
      • La diferencia "termporal" B' - A' (en el eje O) es el "tiempo propio" en el sistema MOVIL

      • Como "SE ESPERABA (por la SR)", el intervalo temporal desde el sistema FIJO es "MAYOR" (dilatacion temporal) que el intervalo temporal en el sistema MOVIL

      • como "SORPRESA", ambas diferencias NO son IGUALES, como "pretendia" Sagnat!!!

      • ver siguiente comentario

    11. we obtain the following formulas for thecoordinate and proper time-of-flight differences:Dt ¼ 4 pR2xc2 1  x2R2=c2ð Þ ; (9)Ds ¼ 4 pR2xc2 ffiffiffiffiffiffiffiffiffiffiffiffiffiffiffiffiffiffiffiffiffiffiffiffiffi1  x2R2=c2p : (10)At the lowest approximation order in xR=c these two expres-sions coincide, and they are in agreement with Eq. (2),
      • Son DISTINTOS
      • Pero "IGUALES", a la APROXIMACION wR/c
      • FIJARSE que wR es la velocidad lineal tangencial==v
      • y en notacion SR: b==beta=v/c

      • VER QUE:

      • En t FIJO: divide por (1-b2)
      • En t MOVIL: divide por RAIZ(1-b2)
      • IMPORTANTE: (1-b2) es <=1, pero >0, porque wR < c
      • por ello RAIZ(1-b2) >= (1-b2)
      • Por tanto, t MOVIL(propio) < t FIJO
      • En el diagrama |B-A| (desde FIJO) > |B'-A'| (propio)
    12. If one prefers to proceed analytically
      • ATENCION
      • "Hasta ahora" solo ha "dibujado" las lineas de recorrido de la luz y encontrado los puntos de "corte"

      • Cuando "queremos" calcular los intervalos de tiempo, aparece el "problema" de la VELOCIDAD de la luz

      • Sagnat asigna velocidad constante c en el sistema O del ETER, y si las 2 lineas van a a la MISMA velocidad, llegan a los puntos A y B en "momentos" DIFERENTES

      • AQUI aparecen tambien la nocion de tiempo ABSOLUTO (my hypothesis: en la epoca de Sagnat)

      • FIJARSE que los puntos (eventos) A y B en el sistema FIJO=ETER, estan separados ESPACIALMENTE y TERMPORALMENTE

      • Cuando Sagnat, lo calcula en el sistema MOVIL=DISCO, tiene que asignar una velocidad DIFERENTE a las lineas.c +/- v, por lo que existe una diferencia TERMPORAL al llegar al detector

      • PERO FIJARSE, que en el sistema MOVIL=DISCO, los eventos A y B, ocurren en el MISMO punto ESPACIAL (detector), pero diferentes TIEMPOS
    13. A purely geometrical argument, 21 applied to Fig. 3,leads again, to lowest order in v/c, to Eq. (2).
      • SEE: ref 21 [FOUND]
    14. intersect the world-line of the observer at two different events, labeled A and B.The interval between A and B is the proper time differencemeasured by the observer between the arrival times of thetwo light rays
      • YEAH, ITS CLEAR
      • Esto es lo que tarda cada "foton" (para que se entienda mas claro el razonamiento) desde que salio del emisor (mismo punto espacial-temporal, eventos, en el diagrama, "punto" O, para los 2 "fotones") hasta que llego al detector: llegan en diferentes tiempos "propios" del detector
      • PERO, "experimentalmente", lo que se MIDE esta en un MISMO punto espacial-temporal (evento) del detector
    15. The vertical axis of thefigure is not the rotation axis of the turntable; it is the coordi-nate time axis.
      • OK
    16. An equivalent deduction can be made adopting the view-point of the rotating observer. In the observer’s referenceframe, light will be expected to have speed c – v in one direc-tion (forward) and c þ v in the other; now the path length isthe same ‘ for both (see Fig. 1). The times of flight are againdifferent and a trivial calculation reproduces Eq. (1).
      • IMPORTANTE: "EXPECTED" to have speed c +/- v
      • calculo da el mismo valor que desde sistema ETER
    17. The Sagnac effect can easily be described in classicalterms if one assumes that the speed of light is c with respectto a static ether.
      • AQUI si dice "explicitamente" que el sistema inercial de calculo es el ETER, donde velocidad es SIEMPRE c
    1. the "fast" light given off during approach would overtake "slow" light emitted during a recessional part of the star's orbit. Many bizarre effects would be seen,
      • lo comentado antes
    2. Albert Einstein is supposed to have worked on his own emission theory before abandoning it in favor of his special theory of relativity. Many years later R.S. Shankland reports Einstein as saying that Ritz's theory had been "very bad" in places and that he himself had eventually discarded emission theory because he could think of no form of differential equations that described it, since it leads to the waves of light becoming "all mixed up".[8][9][10]
      • OK
      • ver abajo el argumento de de Sitter
      • si la velocidad del emisor se sumara a la velocidad "inicial" de lo emitido, y el emisor "acelera" hacia el detector, llegaria ANTES al detector lo ULTIMO emitido
      • Einstein (ver tambien Cosmos-Carl Sagan) dice que se "verian" cosas muy raras: se "veria" una secuencia del FUTURO al PASADO del emisor
    1. the Sagnac effect. It is less known that Sagnac was a strong opponent to the theory of special relativity proposed by Albert Einstein. He set up his experiment to prove the existence of the aether discarded by the Einsteinian relativity. An accurate explanation of the phenomenon was provided by Paul Langevin in 1921.
      • SEE HISTORY
    1. Bohm: Yes. So you see, Feynman was quickly elevated and everybody knew he was a bit odd but then they said, that’s okay because he’s a genius, you see. And his unusual methods can now be accepted.
      • FEYNMAN
    2. Wilkins: This was part of the whole thing about people feeling that Feynman didn’t know what he was talking about. Bohm: Yes. I think a year or two later, Feynman and Brandt talked together. Bohr agreed. At that time, Bohr felt that Feynman was just talking nonsense. It was only a couple of years later that when Dyson came along, a year or two later, Dyson came along and showed them mathematically equivalence of Schringer and Feynman. He was working at the Institute, Dyson. That was essentially the only thing he ever did in physics at that level anyway. And then from then on, everybody went on to Feynman because it was so much easier. That Schringer stuff was really difficult to calculate. To calculate an effect heaven knows how long it would take, 50, 60, 70 pages. Going that way, you see.
      • JAJAJA
    3. Feynman got up and gave his stuff. And Bohr got up and objected because he thought Feynman didn’t understand quantum mechanics, but Feynman was talking about tracks and so on.
      • FEYNMAN
      • "su" metodo
    4. Bohm: Yes. And Schringer came out with a very long talk that lasted about eight hours explaining his method of removing infinities by, in a relativistic we call variant way. It was what he called manifest covariance. Essentially, he had a way of doing it. He had calculated a certain effect. If you take the interactions of the field and the particle then the particle is no longer moving, if you want to think, in the line it would move. But because the field is fluctuating quantum mechanically, the particle fluctuates a bit in its movement. And this changes the energy level slightly, very slightly, say hydrogen.
      • SCHWINGER
      • y "su" metodo
    1. Wilkins: But basically it’s a sort of brainwashing type of activity isn’t it to turn you into a machine.
      • OK
    1. stayed in Brazil for four years
      • BOHM in Brazil: 4 years
    2. Bohm: Well, I had several conversations with Einstein. After writing this book on quantum mechanics, which I wrote to try to understand it (based on my graduate course), I sent a copy to various scientists including Einstein. He wanted to discuss it with me, and we discussed it. He felt that the book was as good as you could present the ordinary point-of-view, but he still didn’t accept it. So we discussed it for a while, and meanwhile I myself had been feeling that it wasn’t all that clear, and that therefore these two things together made me feel that the interpretation of quantum mechanics was not satisfactory. So I began to think about it, and I produced another interpretation, which came out in two papers in Phys. Rev, in 1952, two papers, using a particle and a wave, the causal interpretation I called it. And I discussed all those things with Einstein; we also had correspondence afterwards when I was in Brazil.
      • BOHM
      • Conversaciones con Einstein sobre su libro (1951)
      • le hicieron "repensar" y en 1952 escribio los 2 articulos
    3. I finished the quantum theory book, and I sent a copy to various scientists including Einstein and Pauli, who liked it very much. Einstein wanted to discuss it with me, and we had several discussions on this and on several other topics. But I’ll come to that later
      • BOHM
      • Libro (1951?), copia a Einstein
    1. used to refer to a problem which is solved by a practical experiment.
      • OK, ya que usando la LOGICA no se puede "refutar"
      • "SIMILAR" a la patada a la piedra de S. Johnson en referencia a Berkeley
    1. I observed, that though we are satisfied his doctrine is not true, it is impossible to refute it
      • OK, usando la LOGICA no!
      • por eso, lo trata como FALACIA (LOGICA)
      • Pero la "patada a la piedra" NO es un argumento LOGICO!!!
      • !!!
      • No dice "NADA" de su anecdota con Berkeley: patada a un a piedra
    1. Pope pidió a su amigo Jonathan Swift que usara su influencia en la Universidad de Dublín para que ésta le concediera el grado, pero Swift se negó a ayudarle.[6]​
      • WHY?
    2. su filosofía basada sobre todo en el sentido común
      • mas detalles?
    1. this limited knowledge is much more than the subjective beliefs of some agent
      • MUCH MORE
    2. Our knowledge of the external world is only partial and based on the phenomena which we are able tocreate and/or observe by the devices which are available now. Therefore our knowledge of theexternal world (not a personal belief) is never absolute but relative28 because it depends on our presenttools of probing external world and it may change in time
      • "PROVISIONAL": conocimiento, teorias, creencias
    3. Epistemic interpretation of quantum mechanics and Qbism were also criticized ,from a differentphilosophical perspective, by Louis Marchildon 25,26 and by Michael Nauenberg
      • CRITICA FILOSOFICA!
    4. Hans De Raedt , Mikhail I. Katsnelson and Kristel Michielsen introduced recently a mathematicalframework of logical inference which can be used as a basis for establishing a bridge between objectiveknowledge gathered through experiments and their description in terms of (mathematical) concepts,thereby eliminating personal beliefs. The authors showed how quantum description emerges from thisframework 23,24
      • "objective knowledge" ==> "OBJETO MATEMATICO" ???
    5. he physics is notinterested in subjective experiences of various agents but it is trying to deduce the `laws of Nature’governing the external world
      • DECLARACION
    6. Qbists and Cbists forget that QT is much more than quantum information
      • "MUCH MORE"
    7. Values of physical observables, such as spin projections of photons, are not predeterminedattributes of physical systems but they are created during measurements in particularexperimental contexts
      • IMPORTANTE:
      • Dice: Se "crean" los "VALORES" del observable "durante/debido a" la medida, que "DEPENDEN" (en el caso del spin) del CONTEXTO (orientacion del detector)
    8. For EPR experiment a reduced state vector (for the system II) deduced from an entangled stateof two physical system I+II describes only the sub-ensemble of the systems II being thepartners of those systems I for which the measurement of some observable gave the samespecific outcome
      • HOW "reduce" OR "separate"?
    9. a contextual statistical interpretation 4-11 of QT, inspired by Einstein and Bohr writings, isfree of all these paradoxes and is able to explain the long range correlations in spin polarisationexperiments and the violation of Bell-type inequalities without invoking a mysterious quantumnonlocality12-22.
      • SEE
      • trabajos del Autor
    10. The discussion of quantum nonlocality in paper 3 contributes only to confusion. Statements such as:‘’quantum mechanics is local because its entire purpose is to enable any single agent to organize her

      ...own degrees of belief about the contents of her own experience’ - FRASE "OSCURA" que no aporta "nada"

    11. The validity of these laws does not depend whether some intelligent agents are there to verify them
      • DECLARACION
    12. We discovered that that the invariance with respect to space translations corresponds to theconservation of the total linear momentum. The invariance with respect to time translation correspondsto the energy conservation. The invariance with respect to rotations corresponds to the conservation ofthe total angular momentum etc
      • NOETHER theorem
    13. Due to ‘’ miraculous constancy of the speed of light in all reference frames’’
      • WHY?
      • "CONVENIO", "sugerido" por el PRINCIPIO DE RELATIVIDAD aplicado a la ecuacion de ondas EM
      • "RECORDAR" que NO se "puede" medir la velocidad one-way de la luz
      • El "CONVENIO" de Einstein es usar un round-trip, y usar la forma MAS SIMPLE para asignar el "TIEMPO" del evento "reflexion" como la MITAD

      • De otra manera, c es velocidad MAXIMA LIMITE para cuerpo con inercia,

    14. extremely useful idealization but as Mermin correctly pointed out there are no point –like events.The space –time loses its empirical foundations when we move from macro- to micro- world
      • SEE
    15. A space –time is an idealized mathematical model abstracted from our subjective everyday observationswhich helped us to discover important laws of Nature

      -

    16. However by no means quantum wave functions (state vectors) should be interpreted as themathematical entity corresponding to the subjective belief of human agents.
      • "DECLARACION"
    17. The wave function is a mathematical entity not having any real existence and it is not an attribute of anindividual physical system. It is part of quantum mathematical model together with the operatorsrepresenting various quantum observables
      • "DECLARACION"
    18. particles prepared by some sources interact with themacroscopic devices and after substantial magnification produce clicks on various detectors
      • "MAGNIFICATION"==>"IRREVERSIBLE"
    19. Using the Standard Model (SM) particle physicists were able toexplain quantitatively their properties and predict the existence of new particles which were discoveredlater. Of course many questions in SM are not answered and comparison of the model withexperimental data involves complicated Monte Carlo simulations containing many free parameters butit is the best model we have for now
      • SEE
    20. Any measurement, we make, is not precise but it was believed that byincreasing the precision we could approach as close as we wanted the true value of a measured physicalvariable. This belief was proven to be incorrect when we started to study quantum phenomena ,discovered incompatible physical observables and Heisenberg uncertainty relations
      • OK
    21. The aim of physics is to discover ‘the laws‘’ of Nature governing objectively existing external worldPhysicists are not verifying their personal beliefs about their observations but search for themathematical abstract description allowing to explain and to predict in a quantitative way theregularities observed (and those to be discovered) in physical phenomena which exist independentlyof the presence of any agent.
      • misma declaracion que en el ABSTRACT
    22. In the paper3 one finds several correct citations and statements of famous physicists but thecorrectness of these statements neither prove the correctness of reinterpretations of thesestatements given by the authors nor the correctness of Qbist and Cbist positions.
      • (ironic)
      • "CORRECCION" de datos "no implica" "nada"
    23. The subjective view of probability promoted by Bruno de Finett
      • SEE
    24. All such claims are incorrect because fathers of quantum theorywere convinced that quantum probabilities have nothing to do with subjective beliefs of agents
      • CUIDADO con esta ASEVERACION
      • requiere mas "facts"
    25. One may find also another claim in anonymous article in Wikipedia thatJohn von Neumann was the first Qbis
      • Wikipedia "motto": CITATION NEEDED
    26. Reading their article one mayunderstand that Bohr, Schrodinger, Heisenberg and Einstein had not enough courage to accept asubjective view of probability
      • (ironic)
    27. Marian Kupczynski
    28. In a paper: An Introduction to Qbism with an Application to the Locality of Quantum Mechanics ‘’published in 2013 the authors3 claim that Qbism is the correct interpretation of quantum theory andthat it solves all the famous paradoxes discussed during the last 80 years
      • "PRETENCIOSO"???
    29. Qbism was proposed in 2002 by Carlton Caves, Christopher Fuchs and Rudiger Schack and became asubject of several papers and books.
      • HISTORY
    30. We strongly disagree with this point of view and we give belowarguments against it

      -

    31. promoting
      • Pero en el sentido de "PUBLICIDAD"
    32. The distant long rangecorrelations can be correctly explained using a contextual statistical interpretation of quantum theory
      • SEE
    33. Physicists arenot verifying their personal beliefs about their observations but search for the mathematical abstractdescription allowing to explain and to predict in a quantitative way the regularities observed (and thoseto be discovered) in physical phenomena which exist independently of the presence of any agen
      • "DECLARACION DE PRINCIPIOS": CUAL ES EL "OBJETIVO" DE LA CIENCIA!
      • "En contra" de la "SIMPLE" pretension "filosofica" del QBism, de "quedarse" solo en "EXPERIENCIAS PERSONALES"
    1. In anothersense it seems obviously wrong: the laws of physical science can be cast in mathemat-ical forms having a reality that transcends the mere creatures that discover them. Butmathematics itself is a form of language, even more highly refined than science.16 Math-ematical Platonists will recoil from this in horror. The rest of us, however, might thinkabout Wigner’s surprise at the “unreasonable effectiveness” of mathematics in science.Why shouldn’t mathematics, the most highly refined form of language, serve as the natu-ral vehicle for expressing the most fundamental forms of science, another only slightly lessrefined form of language. Both mathematics and science are human creations. Even if youare convinced that I should not have said “creations”, but “discoveries”, I hope that youwill still be willing to consider that what we are comparing here are two representationsof those discoveries or creations in human language.
      • "MATEMATICAS==LENGUAJE DE LA NATURALEZA"
      • WHY???
      • Es un "LENGUAJE" "inventado", sobre "IDEAS/ABSTRACCIONES" que pueden tener, o no, alguna "relacion" con el "mundo externo"
    2. 3.2.1. Niels Bohr always emphasized the importance of “ordinary language” because,he said, it was the only way to represent to others the outcomes of experiments. Bohrtook such outcomes to be objective phenomena in a common external world, and thisunambiguous reality of experimental outcomes has been taken for granted in all subsequentinterpretations of quantum mechanics.15
      • BOHR
    3. When I assign probability 1, I only mean thatI’d bet my life on it
      • "SILLY"???
      • yo no apostaria la vida!

      • Es una "CREENCIA", pero "en el fondo", todo es una "CREENCIA" (en un mecanismo "inventado", que puede que no sea de APLICACION en todos los CONTEXTOS)

    4. Probability 1 indicates a particular intensity of belief: supremeconfidence — “I’d bet my life on it.” It does not imply the existence of a deterministicmechanism guaranteeing the p = 1 outcome
      • ???
      • que forma "MAS RARA" de pensar
      • ejemplo: "EL SOL SALE TODOS LOS DIAS-Hume"
      • QBist: Vale, Y? No "implica" la "existencia" de un mecanismo. No podemos "inducir" nada
      • Hume: Usando la "LOGICA" no se puede "demostrar" que sigua saliendo "ETERNAMENTE"
      • Copernico: mecanismo==Rotacion de la Tierra
      • Ciencia posterior: El Sol es una estrella con vida finita
    5. QBism holds that probability assignments are personal

      ...judgments even when p = 1

    6. With the advent of quantum mechanics, deterministic mechanisms disappeared fromphysics. Should this be qualified in a footnote: “Except when quantum mechanics assignsprobability 1 to an outcome”?

      -

    7. In the orthodox interpretation when a measurement has an outcome the state of thesystem is said to “collapse” to a new state that incorporates that outcome. In QBism anoutcome is the experience induced in an actor by the world’s response to an action. Thecollapse of the state is nothing more than the normal updating of the expectations of thatactor on the basis of new experience. The collapse of a quantum state is conceptually nodifferent from the updating of a probability distribution on the basis of new data

      -

    8. a widespread misunderstanding of probabilities that are often very close to zero or one.12
      • ya comentado
    9. Laws of science are the regularities we have discerned in our individual experiences,and agreed on as a result of our communications with each other.

      -

    10. Language is the only means we have for trying to compare the personal outcomes ofall such users, and for trying to convey all those outcomes to users who were not watchingor otherwise experiencing those actions and their consequences.

      -

    11. The outcome of anaction, being an experience, is subjective. It is private to the person taking that action.But its representation in language can be communicated to other people. What I call theobjective world is built out of such linguistically shared subjective experiences
    12. To eliminate theconfusion it is necessary to acknowledge that science in general, and quantum mechanicsin particular, is a tool that each of us uses to organize and make sense of our own privateexperience
      • [!!!]
      • I DONT THINK SO
    13. 53 Freud and Schr ̈odinger are rare exceptions
      • [!!!]
      • Ya comentamos que FREUD pertenece al "area" SOCIAL/HUMANO, donde es "necesario" hacer "referencia"
    14. The boundary — John Bell’s “shiftysplit”55 — is different for each scientist using quantum mechanics.
      • "uso" "SUBJETIVO"???
    15. But why should scientific laws never, under any circumstances, mention any user ofscience? Science is a human activity. The laws are formulated in human language. Asempiricists most scientists believe that their understanding of the world is based on theirown personal experience.54 Why insist that an understanding of science, which I use tomake sense of the world I infer from my experience, should make no mention whateverabout the role of that experience?
      • QBISM claim!!!
      • [!!!]
      • El "LENGUAJE" humano usado en las TEORIAS ha ido cambiando a lo largo de la historia

      • En el "area" de la HISTORIA de la Ciencia/Fisica, es donde "aparece" toda esa "ACTIVIDAD", pero no en la "SINTESIS/RESUMEN" del conocimiento comun que son las teorias

    16. 4.14.2 and 4.14.3, which express the very common53 insistence that laws ofnature should make no reference whatever to the people who have formulated those laws
      • [???] reference a people who have formulated the laws???
      • NO, NO, NO!!!
      • Se refiere a que las "LEYES" (fisicas) no "deberian" depender de "PARTICULARIDADES" HUMANAS
      • Justamente, en las "LEYES SOCIALES" se debe hacer referencia a lo HUMANO, y no tiene "sentido" que una ley humana dependa de algo "no vivo", si no existe "INTERES" humano en ello
    17. 4.14.4 There seems no way to locate the boundary between the realms in which

      ...according to Bohr, quantum mechanics does or does not apply

      • (I THINK) Bohr "entendido" "LITERALMENTE": "frontera" entre lo "CLASICO" (aparato) y lo "CUANTICO" (sistema a medir)
      • Ya se ha comentado que "al principio", por falta de NUEVAS palabras, Bohr "insistio" en usar el lenguaje CLASICO
      • Lo dijo "al principio", en relacion al "PRINCIPIO DE COMPLEMENTARIEDAD", que Bohr le dio "mucha importancia", incluso fuera de la Fisica, aplicandolo "a todo"
    18. 4.14.3 It is not that we object to thinking about humans. Rather, we want to under-stand the relation of humans to nature, not just assuming the character of this relation byincorporating it in what we suppose are nature’s fundamental laws, but rather by deduc-tion from laws that make no explicit reference to humans. We may in the end have to giveup this goal, but I think not yet.
      • WEINBERG
      • "VERY GOOD ANSWER"
      • explicacion muy buena al comentario anterior
    19. 4.14.2 I hoped for a physical theory that would allow us to deduce what happens whenpeople make measurements from impersonal laws that apply to everything, without givingany special status to people in these laws.
      • AGAIN, como PAULI!!!
      • En una TEORIA FISICA, no "deberia" (en la practica, porque no hemos encontrado ningun HECHO/FACT en contra!) entrar lo "SUBJETIVO" o dependencia de un "ser vivo" sobre el comportamiento de "seres inaminados"
    20. endorsement of the view that all minds are one,
      • AGAIN and AGAIN
      • Hasta ahora, TODOS los citados "opinan" en modo OBJETIVO-COLECTIVO
    21. In his 1950 letter to Einstein, 4.13.3, Schr ̈odinger comes close to articulating a viewof the world as the common residue of the experience of many. While he does not mentionthe important role of language in such sharing of experience,
      • comentado antes, justo haciendo alusion a la necesidad de un lenguaje COMUN
    22. scorn
      • DESDEN
    23. 4.13.3 The conception of a world that really exists is based on there being a far-reaching common experience of many individuals, in fact of all individuals who come intothe same or a similar situation with respect to the object concerned. Perhaps insteadof “common experience” one should say “experiences that can be transformed into eachother in a simple way”. . . . [This reality] comes about for us as, so to speak, the intersectionpattern of the determinations of many — indeed of all conceivable — individual observers.It is a condensation of their findings for economy of thought which would fall apart withoutany connections. . . . 50
      • Schroedinger
      • Esta "intentando" detallar/aclarar/especificar la "SEMANTICA" de la palabra "WE", "OUR"
      • Una "EXPERIENCIA COMUN" ("muchos" INDIVIDUOS HUMANOS, con un LENGUAJE COMUN) permite "ASUMIR" un "MUNDO EXTERNO"
    24. 4.13.2 Quantum mechanics forbids statements about what really exists — statementsabout the object. It deals only with the object-subject relation. Although this holds,after all, for any description of nature, it appears to hold in a much more radical andfar-reaching sense in quantum mechanics.49
      • Schroedinger
      • Ya comentado sobre las preguntas METAFISICAS, que no "puede" responder la teoria QM
    25. 4.11.1 Unperformed experiments have no results.46
      • PERES
      • "STATEMENT "a la" WHEELER"

      • (I INTERPRET) No se "DEBERIAN" hacer "RAZONAMIENTOS/DEDUCCIONES" sobre diferentes "OBSERVABLES" "NO-COMPATIBLES" entre si

      • La "famosa" CONTEXTUALIDAD:
      • Segun el "ORDEN" de medida de dichos "observables", el resultado del OTRO "observable" cambia
      • Por tanto, no se pueden haber PREDICCIONES (con resutlado que coincida) sobre el resultado de la medida de ambos
    26. If he had takencare to specify that when he said “we”, “us”, and “our” he meant each one of us, actingand responding as a user of quantum mechanics, he would have had it exactly right. Butit seems to me likely that he was using the first person plural collectively, to mean all ofus together, thereby promulgating the Copenhagen confusion
      • PEIERLS
      • (I THINK) "OUR"==="OBJETIVO", "COLECTIVO"

      • (I DON'T UNDERSTAND) "promulgating the Copenhagen CONFUSION"

      • (google) lo he encontrado en OTRO libro de Mermin, en referencia a una "CRITICA" de BELL al uso de la palabra "KNOWLEGDE" en las "explicaciones" de Heisenberg, y PEIERLS (!!!)

      • BELL: Whose Knowlegde? Knowlegde about WHAT?

      • (google) tambien aqui [MASTERPIECE-SEE 3 LAST PARAGRAPHS)

      • [Peierls responde a Bell]: "That leaves the question: whose knowledge should be represented in the density matrix? In general there will be many who may have some information about the state of a physical system. Each of them has to use his or her density matrix. These may differ, as the nature and amount of knowledge may differ. People may have observed the system by different methods, with more or less accuracy; they may have seen part of the results of another physicist. However, there are limitations to the extent to which their knowledge may differ. This is imposed by the uncertainty principle. For example if one observer has knowledge of s, of our Stern-Gerlach atom, another may not know sx, since the measurement of sx would have destroyed the other person's knowledge of J2, and vice versa. This limitation can be compactly and conveniently expressed by the condition that the density matrices used by the two observers must commute with each other."

      • (I THINK) Ha respondido a la pregunta??? I DONT THINK SO!

      • Me recuerda la "respuesta" de Bohr a EPR
      • "AMBOS" vuleven a "repetir" como "aplican" ellos la QM, pero sin "responder" a la pregunta!
    27. In quotation 4.10.2 from his Physics World essay, Peierls articulates the QBist view ofwhy it makes sense to apply quantum mechanics to eras long before people existed. Eventsin the remote past can influence our present or future experiences.
      • ERRATA???
      • MAKES OR NOT SENSE???

      • [FOUND] Physics World Volume 4 issue 1 1991 [doi 10.1088%2F2058-7058%2F4%2F1%2F19] Peierls, Rudolf -- In defence of 'measurement'

      • PARECE que en "respuesta" a:
      • Physics World Volume 3 issue 8 1990 [doi 10.1088%2F2058-7058%2F3%2F8%2F26] Bell, John -- Against 'measurement'

      • [Article-Peierls] "Bell quoted the view of Landau and Lifshitz (and therefore of Bohr) that the apparatus must necessarily obey classical physics. In my view this is not correct. It is of course true that our senses are macroscopic, and that the instruments we find convenient are also macroscopic and in practice classical. But this is a practical point, not one of principle."

      • JUSTO! [ver comentarios anteriores sobre lo CLASICO y MACROSCOPICO]

      • [tambien dice-ATENCION]: "In any case the "system" cannot include the mind of the observer and his knowledge, because present physics is not able to describe mind and knowledge (and it is not obvious that this is a proper subject for physics)."

      • Y HAY "RESPUESTA" a Peierls:

      • Physics World Volume 4 issue 5 1991 [doi 10.1088%2F2058-7058%2F4%2F5%2F14] Whitham, Walter -- Problems with 'measurement'

      • [Peierls responde]: "Whitham is worried that there is no mention of "physical processes"; I believe this goes back to the epistemological difficulty that also bothered Einstein: what is the system "really" doing while the uncertainty principle prevents us from knowing it? Concepts like "reality" cannot be given any meaning at the quantum level. On the macroscopic level, a thing being real means that I can see or feel it, but this definition fails at the quantum level. This conflicts with our intuition, and causes the discomfort to which Niels Bohr referred in the remark quoted by Whitham."

      • Se refiere a:
      • "Bohr is said to have remarked that anybody who is not shocked by quantum theory has not understood it."

      • (I THINK) Para Peierls NO tiene sentido, porque "opina" que "solamente" debe aplicarse la teoria para hacer un experimento!!!

      • El aplicar una teoria "FUERA" de la Tierra, y en OTRO tiempo (pasado o futuro), se basa en la "CREENCIA" de que se puede "ASUMIR" que los "mecanismos" de la teoria van a "funcionar"

    28. 4.10.2 If there is a part of the Universe, or a period in its history, which is not capableof influencing present-day events directly or indirectly, then indeed there would be no sensein applying quantum mechanics to it.44

      -PEIERLS - "opinion" "RARA" - [NOTA-VER ABAJO-QUE "DEMUESTRA" como frases "SACADAS DE CONTEXTO" pueden "interpretarse" de muchas formas. Al leer el CONTEXTO, cambia totalmente y no tiene sentido mis primeros comentarios]

      • (I INTERPRET) Peierls "solamente" quiere "aplicar" la QM a "experimentos" de laboratorio, donde los HUMANOS (actuales!) pueden obtener "resultados", y "comparar" con la prediccion de la teoria
      • Pero el "ESPIRITU CIENTIFICO" ha llevado a "aplicar" las TEORIAS (de cada momento) a CONTEXTOS "diferentes", y ha tenido "exito" POR QUE???
      • Ejemplos: aplicar conocimientos de espectros de luz de elementos terrestres y compararlos con espectros de luz de estrellas. "CONCLUSION" la "fisica" "FUERA" es la "MISMA/SIMILAR" (si funciona, claro) a la "TERRESTRE".
      • Si la "extrapolacion" no ha funcionado, ha generado una "CARRERA" para "descubrir/entender" la diferencia

      • (refran) "ASI FUNCIONA LA CIENCIA" (ver Historia de la Ciencia)


      • [DESPUES DE ACCEDEER A LAS "FUENTES"]
      • La cita anterior, es precedida JUSTO por esto:

      "The objection is sometimes made: "How can one apply quantum mechanics to the early Universe, when there were no observers around?" The answer is that the observer does not have to be contemporaneous with the event. We can, from present evidence, draw conclusions about the early Universe, the classical example being the cosmic microwave background. In this sense we are observers"

      Y antes dijo: " When I refer to "observation", this term has its common-sense meaning. The observation usually (but not necessarily) involves an apparatus which interacts with the system in question, and which produces a signal (visible, audible, or other) which we can recognise, and which is correlated with the variables of the system. "

    29. Peierls also refers in that essay to “the view of Landau and Lifshitz (and therefore ofBohr)”. This identification of Landau and Lifshitz with Bohr has to be taken seriously,since Peierls and Landau worked together in Copenhagen in the early days. But I havenever read in Bohr anything as literally dualistic as the remarks 4.8.2 of Landau andLifshitz on classical and quantum “objects”. Nor have I read in Bohr anything as close toQBism as Peierls’ 4.10.1, which I would take (perhaps wrongly) to be his own reading ofBohr.
      • [PENDIENTE COMENTAR]
      • Pero me "EXTRAÑA" "MUCHISIMO" la "alineacion" de las vistas de LANDAU y BOHR
    30. Contrary to QBism, Peierlsalso takes it for granted,45 like most physicists, that outcomes that are assigned probability1 must be backed up by an explicit physically describable mechanism
      • [PENDIENTE PROFUNDIZAR EN ESTE TEMA]
      • EPR decia: que se pueda predecir con "certeza" (probabilidad=1) un resultado, es un "criterio" de "realidad" de una "propiedad fisica"

      • "Claro", en el QBISM, que se "define" como "SUBJETIVO", solo hay "ESTADISTICA", y no "QUIERE" ver "ESTE CASO" como un "PUNTO DEBIL"

    31. 4.10.1 In my view, a description of the laws of physics consists in giving us a set ofcorrelations between successive observations. By observations I mean. . .what our sensescan experience. That we have senses and can experience such sensations is an empiricalfact, which has not been deduced (and in my opinion cannot be deduced) from currentphysics.43
      • PEIERLS
      • (I THINK) manifiesta una "posicion FILOSOFICA" de que el HUMANO no sera capaz (NUNCA) de "acceder" a la "esencia real", y "solo" le queda hacer una "ESTADISTICA" de los "resultados"
      • Esta actitud "PESIMISTA" (LOGICAMENTE correcta), va "en contra" de la "historia de la ciencia": "descubrimiento" de REGULARIDADES/LEYES, y "exito" de MATEMATICAS para "describir" el "LENGUAJE DE LA NATURALEZA=Galileo"

      • Pero "destaca" que los HUMANOS tienen "SENTIDOS" (OUR=COMUN/COLECTIVO!!!), y "que casualidad" (ironia) (en general, CASI TODOS los HUMANOS, teniendo en cuenta las EXCEPCIONES de CIEGOS, SORDOS, etc) se "ponen de acuerdo" en las "PERCEPCIONES COMPARTIDAS"

      • Es "RARO" que Peierls "opine" que "el poder experimentar las sensaciones" no podra ser "deducido" de la fisica (de la epoca)

      • (I THINK) "HOY EN DIA" "ESTA CLARO" que los HUMANOS estamos "hechos" de la misma "MATERIA" que el resto del "MUNDO EXTERIOR"

      • Y por tanto, los "RECEPTORES corporales" "reaccionan" a "procesos" FISICOS ==> "explicables"

      - (parentesis) [PENSAMIENTO PERSONAL]:

      • "supongamos" un HUMANO H1, y un "GRUPO" de "HUMANOS" G1
      • Si H1 dice: "veo algo", y G1 miran y dicen "no vemos nada", ==> G1 dicen: H1 esta "loco"
      • Si G1 dice: "vemos algo", y H1 mira y dice: "no veo nada", ==> G1 dicen: H1 esta "enfermo" o (en otro conexto) H1 no ha sido "elegido" como nosotros
    32. QBism agrees withPauli that the particular qualities of the user are not a part of the theory, but the factthat each user is particular, plays no role for Pauli, though it lies at the heart of QBism
      • QBISM
      • I DONT UNDERSTAND: "agrees that the particular qualities of the user ARE NOT A PART OF THE THEORY"
      • ...cuando por todo lo leido anteriormente, parece que el QBISM "quiere" un "ROLE" para el "user" "DENTRO" de la "TEORIA MATEMATICA"
      • que "enlaza" con la siguiente frase: "the FACT that EACH user IS PARTICULAR lies at the HEART of QBISM"

      • (I INTERPRET) QBISM "quiere" volver "SUBJETIVO" el "USO" de la TEORIA

    33. 4.9.1 Nevertheless, there remains still in the new kind of theory an objective reality,inasmuch as these theories deny any possibility for the observer to influence the results of ameasurement, once the experimental arrangement is chosen. Therefore particular qualitiesof an individual observer do not enter the conceptual framework of the theory
      • PAULI
      • (MINE) No me "esperaba" una "aseveracion" tan "contundente" por parte de Pauli
      • Comparar con las "opiniones" de otros del "GRUPO" [PENDIENTE-sobre Pascual Jordan]

      • PRIMERO, "mantiene" la "existencia" de una "REALIDAD OBJETIVA"

      • SEGUNDO, algo que no habia "salido" hasta ahora, es la "INFLUENCIA" sobre los "RESULTADOS" que pueda tener el HUMANO ("user")
      • TERCERO, lo "raro" es que PAULI "deduzca" que "existe" el "mundo exterior", "PORQUE" "DENTRO DEL FORMALISMO DE LA TEORIA" se "niegue" la "posibilidad" de "INFLUENCIA" del "user"
      • [PENDIENTE] DONDE se niega esa posibilidad???

      • (parentesis): PAULI usa la palabra "OBSERVER", que ha "GENERADO MUCHOS PROBLEMAS" en la "COMPRENSION" de los que "ESTUDIAN/INTENTAN APRENDER" las teorias de la "RELATIVIDAD" y la "QM"

      • La palabra "OBSERVER" parece "inducir" a pensar en "VER" (con la vista) un fenomeno
      • Se habla de "OBSERVADORES" "inerciales", y pueden "engañar" al que estudia de que se trata de "ILUSIONES OPTICAS"

      • En el caso del Gato de Schroedinger, la palabra "OBSERVER" "engaña" haciendo creer que el "COLAPSO" se produce cuando "UN" observador "ve" y "es CONSCIENTE" de que el gato esta "vivo" XOR "muerto"

      • La "entrada" de un "OBSERVADOR CONSCIENTE" en el "uso" de la QM, llego al "limite" con el "WIGNER'S FRIEND"!!! y la "SUCESION INFINITA" de "amigos"!!!

      • (Google) La definicion de "OBSERVAR" se ha "ampliado", para tener en cuenta otros SENTIDOS ("PERCEPCION"), y en Ciencia, el "registro" en instrumentos cientificos ("DETECTORES")

      • (MY PROPOSAL) DON'T USE THE WORD "OBSERVE", nor "OBSERVER"

      • pues la semantica en el lenguaje "comun" es diferente!
    34. And the second sentence of quotation 4.8.2 wouldbecome this: By measurement, in quantum mechanics, we understand any interactionbetween a user of quantum mechanics and the world external to that user that results inthe world inducing an experience back in that user
      • ESTA ES LA FRASE MAS "RARA/CHOCANTE"
      • PRIMERO: Por que Mermin "insiste" en la "IMPORTANCIA" del "USUARIO DE QM"???
      • Una medida no la puede hacer "CUALQUIER" HUMANO???
      • Mermin "ADMITE" la "EXISTENCIA" de un "MUNDO EXTERNO"!!!

      • PERO...(de pronto)..."insiste" en que el "RESULTADO" es una "PERCEPCION" [mine=en la "MENTE"???) del "user" (again!!!)

      • (I SAY) "SOLAMENTE" en la "MENTE" de "UN/ESE" "user" "CONCRETO"???

      • Y si hay "VARIOS" HUMANOS "presentes" "PERCIBIENDO" el "resultado"???
      • "LOGICAMENTE", para la "primera" MENTE, los "OTROS" "HUMANOS" "tambien" son "PERCEPCIONES" del "mundo externo"
      • Pero...los HUMANOS tenemos "PERCEPCIONES" de "HABLAR/COMUNICARNOS" con OTROS HUMANOS
      • Se "PONDRAN DE ACUERDO" en las "PERCEPCIONES"???
    35. So the QBist reformulation of quotation 4.8.1 from Landau and Lifhistz would be this:It is impossible to formulate the basic concepts of quantum mechanics without referringto the personal experience of each user. And the second sentence of quotation 4.8.2 wouldbecome this: By measurement, in quantum mechanics, we understand any interactionbetween a user of quantum mechanics and the world external to that user that results inthe world inducing an experience back in that user
      • "PURE BERKELEY"
      • ver wikipedia-Berkeley
      • wikipedia says: "En consecuencia, los objetos percibidos son los únicos acerca de los que se puede conocer. Cuando se habla de un objeto real en realidad se habla de la percepción del objeto"
      • wikpedia says: "Berkeley resumió su teoría con el lema "esse est percipi" ("ser es ser percibido")"

      • wikipedia sigue: "Refiriéndose a la filosofía de Berkeley, Samuel Johnson le propinó una patada a una roca exclamando Lo refuto así."

      • (parentesis) JAJAJA, esto me recuerda a la paradoja de Zenon de Elea y su "imposibildiad" del movimiento:

      • (sigue parentesis) en wikipedia: De acuerdo con Simplicio, Diógenes de Sinope no dijo nada al escuchar los argumentos de Zenón, pero se levantó y caminó para demostrar la falsedad de las conclusiones de Zenón (véase "solvitur ambulando").

      • wikipedia sigue: "Un empirista podría replicar que la única cosa que Johnson conoció de la piedra fue lo que vio con sus ojos, oyó con sus oídos y sintió con su pie. Así que la existencia de la piedra consistía únicamente en las percepciones de esta. Lo que la piedra realmente es no es distinto de las sensaciones que pudo experimentar. La roca existe, en última instancia, como una idea percibida por la mente"

      • Esto es LOGICAMENTE "CORRECTO" si "SOLAMENTE" existiera UNA "MENTE".

      • Un "SOLITARIO" (ejemplo: caverna de Platon), podria empezar a "DUDAR" de si lo que "PERCIBE" "SIEMPRE" es "REAL/CORRECTO/como se quiera decir"
      • Otro podria decir: Lo "UNICO" "valido" son las "PERCEPCIONES PERSONALES"
      • Esa "MENTE" se podria "volver LOCA" intentando poner "ORDEN" a las "PERCEPCIONES" cuando parezcan "ALEATORIAS/INCOHERENTES"
      • (parentesis): ver videos en Youtube de las reacciones de PERROS cuando "perciben" algo que les parece "incoherente" (ejemplo: una PERSONA, con una manta, varias veces se oculta y se muesta al PERRO, el perro parece "relacionar", porque a continuacion, la PERSONA se "oculta" y deja caer la manta. El PERRO ya no ve a la persona y "reacciona" a veces con "locura"
      • (parentesis) Todo esto, tambien me recuerda a la "MODA" actual de pensar que "PODRIAMOS" estar viviendo en una "SIMULACION" de la "MATRIX"
      • En este caso de "MATRIX", hay "algo por debajo" que hace que las "PERCEPCIONES" de "DISTINTAS MENTES" sean "COHERENTES"
      • Por eso, cuando sucede algo raro, estos dicen: ha habido un error/bug/glitch en la MATRIX"

      • (MY CONCLUSION) El pensamiento filosofico ha ido evolucionando, desde percepciones, observaciones mas detalladas, "OPINIONES" (con interminables debates, y continua sustitucion/reemplazo de diferentes "corrientes" de pensamiento) hasta "decidir" que el "UNICO INSTRUMENTO VALIDO" es la "LOGICA"

      • Pero el HUMANO se ha dado cuenta (con el "palo" de Goedel) de con "SOLO" con la "LOGICA" no se puede "OBTENER" conocimiento basado (unicamente?) en la "EXPERIENCIA". No "podemos" estar "SEGUROS" de "nada" en relacion a las "PERCEPCIONES".

      • Alguien diria que en las MATEMATICAS si hay "CERTEZA". Las matematicas son un "invento" o un "descubrimiento"?". Que "relaciones" hay entre el mundo "externo" y los objetos "matematicos"???

      • La postura de Berkeley fue llevar "al extremo" el razonamiento "LOGICO".

      • Lo "MAS IMPORTANTE" es que "MEDIANTE" la "LOGICA" no se puede "refutar"

      • Hay que "ROMPER" el "NUDO GORDIANO"

      • (I THINK) la "SALIDA" pasa por "ASUMIR/SUPONER hasta que parezcan "CONFLICTOS/INCOHERENCIAS"
    36. While other versions ofquantum orthodoxy locate measurement outcomes in a vaguely defined “classical” worldcoupled to a quantum mechanical system,41 Landau and Lifshitz are the only ones explicitlyto insist that classical mechanics is therefore logically prior to quantum mechanics. Theyliterally distinguish between “classical objects” and “quantum objects”

      41 Other common and equally imprecise euphemisms for individual experience are “macroscopic” or “irreversible”

      • ESTE ES OTRO PUNTO QUE "REQUIRE FOCO"

      • Por un lado, un "SISTEMA CUANTICO" (cuidado, no siempre) tiene dimensiones "ATOMICAS, MOLECULARES", e inicialmente se ha tenido que "PREPARAR" (experimentalmente o mentalmente, para hacer los calculos)

      • Mientras se encuentre "AISLADO", la TEORIA QM "predice" su "EVOLUCION"
      • Si los HUMANOS "quieren" "comparar (no comprobar!)" las "predicciones", tienen que hacer algun tipo de "expermiento"
      • Los "APARATOS" de medida "de la EPOCA" (hoy, pueden tener dimensiones "COMPARABLES" con el sistema a medir), tenian "AGUJAS/DIALES/GRANOS DE PLANTA en las pantallas"
      • Estas "consecuencias" de las "medidas" tienen dimensiones "MACROSCOPICAS" comparado con el sistema, y son "eventos" "IRREVERSIBLES"
      • "Y LO MAS IMPORTANTE": ha "ocurrido" un "resultado", debido (filosoficamente) a una "INTERACCION" entre el sistema cuantico y el sistema "CUANTICO" (pero mas complejo) de los aparatos de medida

      • (I THINK) para "OCULTAR" la "COMPLEJIDAD" del sistema cuantico de medida, en la EPOCA, se decidio usar la palabra "CLASICO"

      • POR OTRA PARTE, "NO ESTOY DE ACUERDO" con la "PRECEDENCIA LOGICA" de la mecanica clasica

      • Ver comentarios "anteriores"
      • Landau podria referirse a que no quiere "construir desde cero", sino basandose en conocimientos de varios siglos
    37. 40 It was suggested to me by Czech colleagues that such quotations are nothing more thanLandau and Lifshitz paying lip service to the Marxist doctrine of dialectical materialism.I’m unconvinced.
      • HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....
      • JAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJA...
      • good joke!!!

      • WHO are these colleagues???

      • NOTE: they are CZECH ("doble carcajada")
    38. In AIP-Oral History-Mermin Mermin says:

      Mermin: Chris Fuchs, who is a physicist at UMass-Boston; Ruediger Schack, who is a mathematician at Royal Holloway college in London; possibly Ulrich Mohrhoff, who writes about physics from the Pondicherry Ashram in India; a few of Chris’s students, postdocs, and collaborators. Hans Christian von Baeyer recently wrote a whole book about it. That’s about it. I have a few sympathizers of my own — or I had; some of them have died — but we haven’t persuaded many people. But there’s so much noise in this area. There’s so much talk, so much nonsense, that it’s very hard to sound a fanfare and say, “This is it. Listen.” Nobody really reads anybody else’s papers anymore. I wrote what I thought was a ringingly clear explanation of our way of thinking about quantum mechanics. I posted it on arXiv and published it in Reports on Progress in Physics, which is a leading English scientific journal, and I got basically no reactions, no responses, positive or negative, from anyone. People are too busy writing papers to read other papers. So am I, although I’ve pretty much stopped writing for the past couple of years.

      • Se "queja" de que a pesar de su "esfuerzo" (y otros que nombra) "continuado" a lo largo de muchos años, publicando acerca de la "interpretacion" de la QM, este "ultimo" articulo no tuvo "repercusion"

      • My objective: revise it

    39. The quantum mechanics text of Landau and Lifshitz provides the most extreme andexplicit example of the broad reluctance of physicists to allow any trace of a human presenceto play a role in our understanding of quantum mechanics.40
      • LANDAU
      • Mermin ha "insistido desde el principio" del articulo, que la "APLICACION DE LA (mine=MATEMATICA DE LA ) QM" no genera ningun problema a los fisicos ("users")
      • (I THINK) cuando los "users" "hacen los calculos" no están "pensando/teniendo en cuenta" a la "HUMAN PRESENCE"
      • (I THINK) cuando se intenta "entender/interpretar" la "esencia real", es cuando aparece "en escena" el role del HUMAN
    40. 4.8.2 It must be most decidedly emphasized that we are here not discussing a processof measurement in which the physicist-observer takes part. By measurement, in quan-tum mechanics, we understand any process of interaction between classical and quantum

      ...objects, occurring apart from and independently of any observer" - LANDAU - "THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT QUOTE ABOUT THE MEANING OF THE WORD "MEASUREMENT"" - ==="ANY PROCESS OF (mine=PHYSICAL) INTERACTION"

    41. 4.8.1 It is in principle impossible. . .to formulate the basic concepts of quantum me-chanics without using classical mechanics.
      • "in principle impossible..." ??? I DON'T UNDERSTAND!
      • "historicamente", los humanos "desarrollaron" la mecanica "clasica" a partir de sus observaciones, experimentos y razonamientos matematicos
      • cuando se descubrio un "CONTEXTO" nuevo (nivel atomico), habia 2 opciones:
      • "desarrollar" NUEVOS CONCEPTOS y/o un NUEVO LENGUAJE
      • "intentar" llevar "AL LIMITE DE APLICABILIDAD" los conceptos "clasicos"
      • Despues de "descubrirse/inventarse" la nueva TEORIA (QM) hubo una "gran" "PREOCUPACION" por "obtener" los "resultados" "CLASICOS" a partir de la nueva teoria
      • Ejemplo: Ehrenfest theorem
    42. less directly and more inferentially, the world thatexperience has led me to hypothesize
      • THIS IS ANOTHER QUESTION:
      • Si se hacen hipotesis sobre un comportamiento del que no se tiene "conocimiento DIRECTO", que "asegura" que sea "correcto"?
      • Es "CORRECTO" el "conocimiento DIRECTO"???
      • Es "DUDOSO" el "conocimiento INDIRECTO"???

      • Mermin sigue: "Know” may well apply to my experience, but it can be misleadingly strong to apply the word to what I hypothesize

      • Que es "similar" a lo indicado "justo anteriormente"
    43. The object of my knowledge is the contentof my private personal experience
      • "SUBJETIVO"
    44. As discussed above, in a QBist reading “our” does not refer,as it usually does, to all of us collectively. It refers to each one of us individually. Some ofus may have such knowledge; others may not
      • "RARO"
    45. What does it mean to “know” something?
      • (I THINK) "BE ABLE TO PREDICT"
    46. o whom does “our” refer?
      • (I THINK) "OBJECTIVE", "COLLECTIVE"
    47. What does it mean to distinguish between “behavior” and “our knowledgeof this behavior”?
      • "POSIBLE" ASWER from HEISENBERG:
      • La "INFORMACION" que la teoria "suministra" sobre las "CONDICIONES" del sistema, permite una "PREDICCION" sobre los resultados de medidas

      • (I THINK) Heisenberg "traduce/codifica" esta idea en la frase "OUR KNOWLEDGE"

    48. 4.7.1 The conception of the objective reality of the elementary particles has thusevaporated in a curious way, not into the fog of some new, obscure, or not yet understoodreality concept, but into the transparent clarity of a mathematics that represents no longerthe behavior of the elementary particles but rather our knowledge of this behavior.38
      • HEISENBERG
      • IT'S INTERESTING, que "negando"/"evitando" la "METAFISICA" de lo que "puede" haber "debajo" (la esencia real), si se da cuenta que la MATEMATICA de la TEORIA "proporciona" "INFORMACION" (this is mine) de TODAS LAS POSIBILIDADES (o CATALOGO de POSIBILIDADES) de los "resultados" de medidas, aunque sean "OBSERVABLES INCOMPATIBLES": los "resultados" son "DIFERENTES", pero dicha "INFORMACION" esta "CONTENIDA" en la "FUNCION DE ONDAS"

      • Ejemplo: "onda plana" es el caso "LIMITE IDEAL" de "preparar" una "particula" con momento con un "UNICO VALOR": La prediccion sobre medidas de la posicion es que puede "aparecer" en "CUALQUIER" punto

      • por otro lado "PULSO/DELTA DIRAC" es el "LIMITE IDEAL de "preparar" una "particula" "localizada" en un "UNICO PUNTO": La prediccion sobre medidas del momento es que puede resultar "CUALQUIER" velocidad (QM NO-RELATIVISTA)

      • "Our knowledge" (I THINK) "INTERPRETO" "OUR" en el sentido "OBJETIVO", "COLECTIVO"

      • (I THINK) no "INTERPRETO" "knowledge" en el sentido de "ADQUIRIR CONOCIMIENTO", que podria ser "OBJETIVO" o tambien "SUBJETIVO", sino como "CATALOGO DE POSIBILIDADES", de "TODO" lo que podemos llegar a "CONOCER/PREDECIR" sobre un fenomeno "concreto"

      • [PENDIENTE REFERENCIA] (I THINK) Heisenberg en algun otro texto habla de este concepto de "CATALOGO DE POSIBILIDADES"

    49. But I prefer to put it the other way around: the successof QBism in clarifying the murk at the foundations of quantum mechanics is a compellingreason for physicists too to embrace the widespread view of probabilities as subjectivepersonal judgments
      • NO ES UNA "NECESIDAD LOGICA"
      • Mermin hace una "APELACION" al "argumento" "ESTADISTICO": lo que tiene "poca frecuencia de ocurrencia" "NUNCA OCURRE"

      • "widespread view" [????]

      • "antes" dijo que era ANATEMA entre los FISICOS
      • sera una vision "practica" en las areas sociales
    50. Freud was writing about religion. But for a QBist his remark applies equally well tophysical science, contrary to the current views of most physical scientists
      • NO, NO, NO, NO, NO,...
      • FREUD "claramente" indica la "NECESIDAD" de tener en cuenta la "mente" en los "ASUNTOS HUMANOS"
      • DE ACUERDO!

      • Pero la siguiente "ASEVERACION", (expresion) "no la compro"

      • "ASUNTOS HUMANOS" son el "METODO" cientifico, o la FILOSOFIA de la ciencia, y aqui si que "pudiera" intervenir la "mente" humana

      • "PERO" (EN MAYUSCULAS!!!), en las teorias matematicas fisicas, no "deberia" intervenir/aparecer referencia a la "mente" humana.

      • (I THINK) El "universo" es "posible" sin "VIDA", ni "HUMANOS"

    51. One would have thought that the Born interpretation calledfor a searching reexamination of the nature of probabilistic judgments
      • [PENDIENTE]
      • BORN (I THINK) "defendia" que los "SUCESOS" CUANTICOS eran debidos al "PURO AZAR"
      • Ejemplos: momento temporal de desintegración/transicion entre niveles de energia; punto de la pantalla donde es detectada una particula despues de difractarse por un agujero

      • "Por eso", Einstein, en la correspondencia con Born, escribio su "famosa" frase: (no literal) [PENDIENTE-REVISAR] "me niego a creer que "el Viejo" juege a los dados"

    52. one’sunderstanding of quantum mechanics should differ dramatically depending on whetherone subscribes to the objective (“frequentist”) view of most physicists, or the subjective(“personalist”) view of most statisticians
      • (I THINK)
      • FREQUENTIST: ciencias naturaleza
      • PERSONALIST o SUBJETIVA: "areas" humanas/sociales
    53. Quantum mechanics is, after all, the first physicaltheory in which probability is explicitly not a way of dealing with ignorance of the precisevalues of existing quantities
      • NO!
      • Existe la "ENSEMBLE" interpretation
      • ver Einstein, Ballentine:

      AIP Conference Proceedings Volume 962 issue n 2007 p028-033 [doi 10.1063%2F1.2827319] Ballentine, Leslie -- Objective and Subjective Probabilities in Quantum Mechanics

      American Journal of Physics Volume 40 issue 12 1972 [doi 10.1119%2F1.1987060] Ballentine, L. E. -- Einstein's Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics

      American Journal of Physics Volume 54 issue 10 1986 [doi 10.1119%2F1.14783] Ballentine, L. E. -- Probability theory in quantum mechanics

      Canadian Journal of Physics Volume 47 issue 21 1969 [doi 10.1139%2Fp69-295] Ballentine, L. E. -- The uncertainty principle and the statistical interpretation of quantum mechanics

      Foundations of Physics Volume 46 issue 8 2016 [doi 10.1007%2Fs10701-016-9991-0] Ballentine, Leslie E. -- Propensity, Probability, and Quantum Theory

      RevModPhys.1970s\Review of Modern Physics Volume 42 issue 4 1970 [doi 10.1103%2Frevmodphys.42.358] BALLENTINE, L. -- The Statistical Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics

    54. Physicists generally believe that probability isan objective property of events, baked into their very nature by objective features of theworld. But many statisticians, mathematicians, and philosophers take probability to be anumerical measure of the subjective judgment of the person who assigns it, indicating, forexample, the odds at which that person is willing to make or accept bets.
      • [PENDIENTE] about "nature" of PROBABILITY
      • By now, (I THINK): "MISMAS" "HERRAMIENTAS" que se "USAN" para fenomenos "ALEATORIOS" (DADOS), se "USAN" para fenomenos donde "NOS FALTA INFORMACION" (MEDICINA), o son MUY COMPLEJOS por el NUMERO de FACTORES (TERMODINAMICA)

      • Mermin says: "NO-FISICOS" usan la probabilidad como algo "SUBJETIVO"

      • (I THINK) lo "usan" al estilo "SHUT UP AND CALCULATE", sin "pensar" si "por debajo" hay "algo" ,porque es MUY COMPLEJO
    55. De Finetti, in the 1930s, was one of the earliest and most eloquent advocates ofthe subjective view of probability, common today among statisticians and inherent inQBism, but anathema to most physicists
      • "SUBJETIVE VIEW of PROBABILITY" =?= BAYES
      • "ANATHEMA" to MOST PHYSICISTS???
      • references needed!
    56. 4.5.1 The abandonment of superstitious beliefs about the existence of Phlogiston, theCosmic Ether, Absolute Space and Time. . . , or Fairies and Witches, was an essential stepalong the road to scientific thinking. Probability too, if regarded as something endowedwith some kind of objective existence, is no less a misleading misconception, an illusoryattempt to exteriorize or materialize our actual36 probabilistic beliefs.
      • WHY? "SUPERTITIOUS BELIEFS"
      • Son "CONCEPTOS" "abandonados" o "REDEFINIDOS" en la "HISTORIA" DEL "PROCESO COLECTIVO" de la Ciencia

      • "THEN" (==>), ALL is SUPERTITIOUS, because we cannot be SURE AT ALL of ANYTHING

      • It's BETTER a PRAGMATIC approach, depending on the "USEFULNESS" of the concept

      • Hay un "problema" en la "ENSEÑANZA", y es que no se "suele" ENSEÑAR la "HISTORIA", sino los CONOCIMIENTOS "ACTUALES"

      • Los estudiantes pueden "creer" que lo ("UNICO") que se les enseña es lo "VERDADERO",y les falta la "PERSPECTIVA" de la "EVOLUCION HISTORICA"
    57. The sentiment is pure CBism, which makes me even more suspicious of its authenticity
      • ver comentario de la 4.4.3
    1. So many people today — and even professional scientists — seem to me like somebody who has seen thousands of trees but has never seen a forest. A knowledge of the historic and philosophical background gives that kind of independence from prejudices of his generation from which most scientists are suffering. This independence created by philosophical insight is — in my opinion — the mark of distinction between a mere artisan or specialist and a real seeker after truth
      • EINSTEIN
      • good!
    1. 3%, bafflingly, said they would prefer whichever theory was proposed first, a chronological criterion
      • !!!
      • Para "BURLARSE" de la encuesta???
    2. “the observer” with respect to the behavior of quantum systems. 37% responded that the observer is a complex quantum system (like a measurement apparatus in a physics laboratory); 31% that the concept has a fundamental role in the formalism of quantum mechanics, but no physical role in the real world (i.e., it’s useful as a calculation device, but does not correspond to something “out there”); 22% disagree, stating that the concept of observer does play a significant role in the real world; and 10% said the observer plays not fundamental role at all, either in the formalism or in the real world.
      • !!!
    3. “Do you believe that physical objects [like cats] have their properties well defined prior to and independent of measurement?”
      • pregunta "ILL-DEFINED"
      • Las "propiedades" que se asignan al "mundo externo" son "inventos" de la teoria fisica, que ha intentado hacer una "correspondencia" con algo "hipotetico" en la "esencia real"

      • Lo que quedo "claro" "DESDE EL PRINCIPIO" en el AMBITO atomico, es las medidas "NO REVELAN", sino que "PERTURBAN"

      • "llevado al extremo", Pascual Jordan: "las medidas "crean" la "realidad" (!!!)

      • (ejemplo) una particula con spin 1/2 en un Stern-Gerlach: actua como "ORIENTADOR", y solo aparecen 2 resultados

    4. It is supposed to illustrate the kind of problems that one of the most famous interpretations of quantum mechanics, the Copenhagen one, runs into when it is applied to macroscopic objects (like cats). The cat is in what is known as a state of quantum superposition, because the box containing it is linked to a random subatomic event that may or may not occur.
      • OK
      • ver comentario anterior
    5. famous Schrödinger’s cat, a thought experiment suggested by Erwin Schrödinger in 1935, based on an original idea by Albert Einstein.
      • BASED ON IDEA BY EINSTEIN???
      • Schroedinger escribio el articulo (donde la referencia al gato solo ocupa "2 lineas", y lo propone como un ejemplo que le parece"absurdo" de como lo interpretaria el "grupo" de Copenhagen), en 1935, pero DESPUES del articulo EPR
      • MASTERPIECE!!!
      • SEE 3 LAST PARAGRAPHS
    1. As the philosopher Don Howard notes, the Bohr-Einstein debate: “… was not a clash between a dogmatic bully and a senile old man. Theirs was a clash between two determined seekers after truth. They both knew that a deep truth was to be discovered where separability and entanglement came into conflict.”
      • OK
    2. I encourage readers with an interest in these questions to go beyond the superficial treatments that can be found in some popular science books, and (alas) in student textbooks. Dig a little deeper. As Sivasundaram and Nielsen imply in their paper, become more familiar with the foundational concepts. Learn a little more about the philosophy of the subject, and make up your own mind. I believe your efforts will be greatly rewarded, not least through a better appreciation of one of the most dramatic debates in the entire history of science.
      • SEGUNDO PARRAFO CLAVE
    3. Like the great philosopher Han Solo, I’ve got a very bad feeling about this.
      • JOKE!
    4. But in recent years I have developed real doubts
      • 2.2
    5. No doubt this failure will not shake the firm realist convictions of some commentators. For many years, on balance I have preferred Einstein’s realism and have championed Bell’s rejection of the Copenhagen “orthodoxy” (I still do).
      • 2.1
    6. The matter of interpretation remains undecided.
      • 3
    7. But we should not overlook the simple fact that all the experimental studies of the last 50 years have failed to establish the superiority of any realist interpretation or extension of quantum mechanics.
      • 2
    8. There can be no doubt that the slow-to-reawaken interest in foundational questions raised by Bohm and Bell (and others) has uncovered some remarkable phenomena that might have otherwise gone unnoticed, and has helped to establish the wholly new disciplines of quantum information and quantum computing.
      • 1
    9. There can be no doubt that the slow-to-reawaken interest in foundational questions raised by Bohm and Bell (and others) has uncovered some remarkable phenomena that might have otherwise gone unnoticed, and has helped to establish the wholly new disciplines of quantum information and quantum computing. But we should not overlook the simple fact that all the experimental studies of the last 50 years have failed to establish the superiority of any realist interpretation or extension of quantum mechanics. The matter of interpretation remains undecided. No doubt this failure will not shake the firm realist convictions of some commentators. For many years, on balance I have preferred Einstein’s realism and have championed Bell’s rejection of the Copenhagen “orthodoxy” (I still do). But in recent years I have developed real doubts. Like the great philosopher Han Solo, I’ve got a very bad feeling about this.

      - PARRAFO CLAVE!!!!

    10. Just a few months ago Mermin admitted to me in private correspondence that his professors were simply indifferent to philosophy, and only in this sense did he view them as “agents of Copenhagen.” “They had no interest in understanding Bohr, and thought that Einstein’s distaste for [quantum mechanics] was just silly. … It was a very unphilosophical time.”
      • OK
    11. Here’s N. David Mermin, writing about his experiences as a research student studying quantum mechanics in the 1950s, in the journal Physics Today in 2004, in which he recalls:“… vivid memories of the responses my conceptual inquiries elicited from my professors — whom I viewed as agents of Copenhagen — when I was first learning quantum mechanics as a graduate student at Harvard, a mere 30 years after the birth of the subject. ‘You’ll never get a PhD if you allow yourself to be distracted by such frivolities,’ they kept advising me, ‘so get back to serious business and produce some results.’ ‘Shut up,’ in other words, ‘and calculate.’ And so I did, and probably turned out much the better for it. At Harvard, they knew how to administer tough love in those olden days.”
      • SEE
    12. The Copenhagen interpretation had become a dogma not through acceptance of reasoned philosophical arguments, but by default. In a 1987 interview, David Bohm explained it this way: “… everybody plays lip service to Bohr, but nobody knows what he says. People then get brainwashed into saying Bohr is right, but when the time comes to do their physics, they are doing something different.”
      • OK
    13. And American scientific hegemony after the second world war ensured that these standard textbooks, such as Quantum Mechanics, by Leonard Schiff (greatly influenced by Oppenheimer) carried often-garbled versions of Bohr’s complementarity and the Copenhagen line on measurement. Schiff’s text would go on to inform the teaching of quantum mechanics throughout North America, Europe, and Asia, through three editions spanning twenty years.
      • SEE
    14. but English physicists such as Paul Dirac were essentially unmoved (you’ll find no mention of complementarity in Dirac’s The Principles of Quantum Mechanics, first published in 1930)
      • OK
    15. DeWitt’s search for a quantum theory of gravity had led him to the Wheeler-DeWitt equation which, when applied to the entire universe, implies a “universal wavefunction.” He perceived a problem. The Copenhagen interpretation appears to place special emphasis on the process of measurement and the role of an observer (it doesn’t, but never mind) and, as there can be nothing and nobody outside the universe to collapse such a wavefunction, he rejected Copenhagen in favor of Hugh Everett III’s “relative state” formulation, which he re-invented (with Everett’s blessing) as the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics.Let’s be clear. DeWitt was seeking an interpretation in which the wavefunction is to be interpreted realistically, and the “measurement problem” is a real problem in need of a solution. That in itself should be sufficient reason to reject Copenhagen, but no. DeWitt invents what he clearly believes is a stronger argument by conflating Copenhagen with the collapse of the wavefunction: “According to the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, whenever a [wavefunction] attains a form like that in equation 5 [a superposition of wavefunctions pertaining to measurement] it immediately collapses.” This sentence appears in a section titled “The Copenhagen collapse.”
      • SEE
    16. The Copenhagen interpretation appears to place special emphasis on the process of measurement and the role of an observer (it doesn’t, but never mind)
      • SEE
      • WHO???
    17. So how did the conflation arise? I’m confident there isn’t a straightforward answer to this question. But I’d like to draw your attention to an article published in the journal Physics Today in 1970, by Bryce DeWitt. It is titled “Quantum Mechanics and Reality.”
      • SEE
    18. What’s quite remarkable is how von Neumann’s theory would become conflated with the Copenhagen interpretation and summarized under the heading of “the measurement problem.” In the Copenhagen interpretation, all measurements are classical and the notion of “quantum measurement” doesn’t arise. There is no such thing as the “measurement problem” in the Copenhagen interpretation. No matter how deep you dig, you’ll struggle to find any reference to von Neumann’s theory in Bohr’s writings.
      • SEE
    19. The collapse of the wavefunction is more appropriately associated with John von Neumann’s quantum theory of measurement, included in his text Mathematical Foundations of Quantum Mechanics, first published (in German) in 1932, although von Neumann doesn’t actually use this phrase. Instead, he distinguishes two kinds of quantum process. Process 2 is the smooth, continuous evolution of a quantum system as described by quantum mechanics. Process 1 is the discontinuous “projection” of the system into a single measurement outcome (such as a single spot on the screen). At the moment of measurement, von Neumann postulates that we abandon process 2 in favor of process 1.
      • SEE
    20. But the seeds of confusion were now already sown. If the (realistically-interpreted) wavefunction starts out “distributed in space” and ends up at a single point then it is presumed to “collapse.” Whilst it is possible to find references to an equivalent phrase — the “reduction of the wave packet” — in Heisenberg’s 1929 Chicago lectures, this is used to critique a purely wave description. The “collapse of the wavefunction” was never part of the Copenhagen interpretation because the wavefunction isn’t interpreted realistically. The only thing that happens when an electron is detected on a screen in the context of Copenhagen is that we gain knowledge of the position of the electron
      • SEE
    21. This would later become widely known as “spooky action at a distance.”
      • CUIDADO!!!
      • Aparece en 1935 ("later" from 1927), pero en el contexto del experimento mental EPR
      • la "medida" en zona A, "parece afectar" INMEDIATAMENTE (por el COLAPSO) al "estado" de la zona B
      • Y ATENCION: Y "VICEVERSA"
      • La cuestion es que la "preocupacion" por lo INMMEDIATO, no tiene "efecto practico", pues la "CORRELACION" solo se puede "verificar" al "juntar" (con velocidad maxima c) los "resultados" de ambas zonas

      • (parentesis) El ejemplo del "single point" de Einstein, tambien se ve con el ejemplo de las "2 CAJAS DE EINSTEIN"

      • "una" particula se introduce en "una" caja, que tiene un mecanismo interno de division, de forma que se pueden "separar" en 2 "cajitas". Estas cajitas se "separan" "muchisima" distancia. Si se abre la caja en un lado, y se "detecta" la particula, la PERSONA "SABE" que en el otro lado no puede detectarse, pero esa CORRELACION solo se podra "verificar" a posteriori
      • Alguien podria decir: "la particula ya estaba alli, porque SIEMPRE estuvo
      • Bohr, Heisenberg dirian: esa pregunta no tiene sentido FISICO, es METAFISICA, ya que la TEORIA no puede responderla
      • Con ZAPATOS o GUANTES, parece "claro"
      • Pero cuando se aplica al estado SINGLETE de SPIN 0 (2 particulas de spin 1/2), no es "facil" "visualizar" "a posteriori" la "situacion" ANTES de obtener un resultado
    22. And this is what Einstein did in 1927. Electrons pushed one at a time through a narrow aperture will eventually produce a pattern consistent with the diffraction of a classical “electron wave.” But each electron is detected as a single particle, registering as a single point on a distant screen. Einstein worried that this: “… assumes an entirely peculiar mechanism of action at a distance, which prevents the wave continually distributed in space from producing an action in two places on the screen.”
      • Einstein: "pega" basada en argumento de "LOCALIDAD"
      • El "COLAPSO" "es" "INSTANTANEO" en TODO el espacio
    23. And there lies the rub: for what is the purpose of a scientific theory if not to aid our understanding of the physical world? We want to rubberneck at reality.
      • OK
    24. The Copenhagen interpretation obliges us to resist the temptation to ask: But how does nature actually do this?

      -

    25. This and the variants of the Copenhagen interpretation due to Bohr and Werner Heisenberg are essentially anti-realist. This doesn’t mean that they deny objective reality or the reality of “invisible” microscopic entities (such as electrons). It means that the wavefunction shouldn’t be taken as a literal representation of the real physical states of the real physical things. Bohr referred to application of the quantum formalism as a “purely symbolic procedure,” and is famously quoted as saying: “There is no quantum world. There is only an abstract quantum physical description.”
      • SEE
    26. Bohr’s principle of complementarity can be articulated in the language of classical waves and of particles, or as descriptions in which the physics evolves smoothly and continuously and energy is conserved (an electron “orbits” an atomic nucleus but we can’t say where it is at any moment in time), or discontinuously in a space-time framework (the particulate electron is “here”). These descriptions are not contradictory, they are complementary. According to Bohr what we cannot do is go beneath these descriptions and say what the electron is at all times in all circumstances.
      • OK
    1. where Ehrenfest much to his dismay had to side with Bohr's position in this great debate.
      • CITATION NEEDED!!!
    1. Entonces se destaca la lucha de Berkeley contra el materialismo que fundamenta el ateísmo, el cual supondría la negación de la religión. Berkeley trataba de triturar la Idea de materia porque la esencia y existencia de ésta trituraba a Dios
    2. Lo primero que dice el diccionario es que Berkeley es un filósofo inglés, pero eso es inexacto porque se trataba de un filósofo irlandés. No le llames inglés a un irlandés.
      • JAJAJA
      • OK!
    1. En consecuencia, los objetos percibidos son los únicos acerca de los que se puede conocer. Cuando se habla de un objeto real en realidad se habla de la percepción del objeto
      • Mermin--QBISM
    2. En su juventud, Berkeley propuso que no se puede saber si un objeto es, solo puede saberse un objeto siendo percibido por una mente. Por tanto, concluyó que todo lo que puede conocerse de un objeto es su percepción del mismo, y resulta gratuito suponer la existencia de una sustancia material que sustente las propiedades de los cuerpos. Los conceptos abstractos de Locke no existen para Berkeley, ni en la naturaleza ni en el espíritu, es una ficción. Las ideas siempre conservan su particularidad. No es la abstracción, sino el lenguaje, lo que hace posible extender observaciones particulares a lo general.[3]​

      -

    3. La filosofía de Berkeley es el empirismo llevado al extremo
      • CIERTO!
    4. Los sermones de Berkeley explicaban a los colonizadores que el cristianismo permitía la esclavitud, y en consecuencia los esclavos debían ser bautizados: «sería una ventaja para sus negocios (de los patrones) tener esclavos que deban "obedecer en todo a sus patrones desde las entrañas, no solo cuando les observan, sino de todo corazón, temerosos de Dios"; que la libertad del evangelio concuerda con la servidumbre temporal, y que todos sus esclavos solo serán mejores esclavos siendo cristianos».[2]​
      • [PENDIENTE COMENTAR]
  2. www.informationphilosopher.com www.informationphilosopher.com
    1. This does not need any "conscious observer," as had been argued by John von Neumann and Eugene Wigner,
      • [PENDIENTE COMENTAR]
    2. Jordan went further, arguing that there were times when a quantum system effectively observed itself, by collapsing into a specific state rather than remaining in a superposition of states.
      • [PENDIENTE COMENTAR]
    3. "we ourselves produce the results of measurement" [Wir selber rufen die Tatbestände hervor] (Erkenntinis, 4, 215-252, 1934).
      • [PENDIENTE COMENTAR]
    4. "the electron is forced to a decision. We compel it to assume a definite position; previously it was, in general, neither here nor there; it had not yet made its decision for a definite position.... If by another experiment the velocity of the electron is being measured, this means: the electron is compelled to decide itself for some exactly defined value of the velocity; and we observe which value it has chosen. In such a decision the decision made in the preceding experiment concerning position is completely obliterated."
      • [PENDIENTE COMENTAR]
    5. According to Max Jammer (The Philosophy of Quantum Mechanics, p. 161), Jordan declared, with emphasis, that observations not only disturb what has to be measured, they produce it!
      • [PENDIENTE COMENTAR]
    1. Mermin: One of the breakthroughs that had just come to my attention recently is high-temperature superconductivity.
      • Pero si dijo que lo habia "abandonado"
      • nota