Axel: And then I don't know the whole story of how my mom and my stepdad started talking, but I know they were coworkers because they've told me that part before, and my dad's also told me. He's like, "Yeah, I know him. We used to work together, he was just my partner, in a way." I mean, my dad doesn't seem like he has any hard feelings about it, but he never remarried again, so I don't know what happened there. But my mom got remarried and now it's been like, I don't know, I suppose right now it's been about almost 20 years? And he's never remarried, he's never really bothered, I’ve never met him to have a girlfriend, no other kids, nothing. After the first one, he just gave up and just enjoys his house alone with the dogs and stuff.

Axel: No, he was also undocumented. He's still undocumented to the point. He was working with my dad. They were coworkers.

Axel: We were getting, the apartment where we lived, we were getting a good discount and then my mom was working a night shift or... no, wait. She was doing morning shift in the mall. My dad and my mom would get off around the same time. That was never really an issue with them. But once she got divorced and she got with my stepdad, she stopped working. She just focused more on with me, she got pregnant and started having my sister, and after that, she just focused more on being a housewife. Being a housewife, being a house mom.Axel: She did great. She kept herself real busy and she always worried a lot about us, tried to give us everything we needed for school, for food, dress wise. Anything we needed. She did what she could with what my stepdad would provide her.

Axel: We were getting, the apartment where we lived, we were getting a good discount and then my mom was working a night shift or... no, wait. She was doing morning shift in the mall. My dad and my mom would get off around the same time. That was never really an issue with them. But once she got divorced and she got with my stepdad, she stopped working. She just focused more on with me, she got pregnant and started having my sister, and after that, she just focused more on being a housewife. Being a housewife, being a house mom.Axel: She did great. She kept herself real busy and she always worried a lot about us, tried to give us everything we needed for school, for food, dress wise. Anything we needed. She did what she could with what my stepdad would provide her.

Axel: And my dad was doing maintenance work at the apartments where we lived.

Axel: Yeah. When we first moved, yeah. She was working in a restaurant, in a mall, actually. She was working inside a restaurant in the mall.

Axel: It's either because they're already being paid by them or it's because they know that if they go in there, it's going to be some big drama with the guys in there, or it's just that they don't really care anybody that. They just want to make something for their day. Here, it's almost just like that. There's cops everywhere, they stop you for anything.

Axel: This area right here is not really good for us, especially at nighttime. And any cops that see us, any cops or anything like that, they're going to try to pull us over and find something. If they don't find something or if they already know you and they don't like you, because they recognize. Me, they come up to me and they almost know my name already. They're like, "Hey, so what's going on?" He's like, "Are you clean today too?" He's like, "Yeah, like every other time. Yeah." It's like, I work here. You do this every day, every day you don't get anything from me. What makes you think that today's going to be different? Obviously, I know that I'm not going to... That this area is not the area to be doing anything. If I want to do anything at all, I'm not going to do it here at work or outside of wor

Axel: The train stations are three blocks away, the bus is maybe two blocks away, and within that little range, it's probably the biggest mission ever. People talk about the areas where they have all the drugs, they beat them or places like that where it's supposedly heavy, and really, I've gone to those areas because I have friends and people that live in those areas and I've gone to visit them, and the cops are there in that area, they're right outside of the locations where they're selling stuff. They can smell the stuff, they can see people going in and out of the place, but they don't go in the place. They do checks on everybody that comes out of there, to try to see if maybe they can catch them slipping up and get some money off of them, a phone, whatever they can, but they will never go inside of the location where they see everybody going in and out of.

Axel: You can be late to work just because of that. You could be 10 minutes early or two minutes early, but if you get stopped twice right here at least, you lost all your time right there. You're running late already to work. That's either before work, during lunch, on a break, after work when you're going home. It's just anytime. It got to the point where work, it's a mission just to go from your work to where your transport is. Either the train line, the substation or the buses. They're only about three...

Axel: It's annoying sometimes, because sometimes even because of that, within the two blocks, they could search you about two, maybe three times. Because one guy will search you on the bikes, the guys on the bikes, then you're okay, they'll search you, they'll let you go. About another block later, you'll bump into guys that are just walking around and they'll search you too. Another block later, the guys in the cars, the trucks are going by, they'll stop in front. "Hey, let me do a quick search, just random."

Yeah." It's like, I work here. You do this every day, every day you don't get anything from me. What makes you think that today's going to be different? Obviously, I know that I'm not going to... That this area is not the area to be doing anything. If I want to do anything at all, I'm not going to do it here at work or outside of work.

Axel: Went over when I was really young, about a year or two years old, so I didn't know much about it but what my parents told me once I got older was where we lived, it was a small ranch type area,

Axel: Obviously, I'm not going to risk it. I didn't believe him at the same time, but since they do always take money and any other types of bribes, so I'm like, I'm not going to risk it, try to play the brave guy and be like, "All right, go ahead and take me," and stuff, and then they do it, and then I'm going to be like, "Oh no, never mind." They might even end up taking both of my phones or anything like that. I have friends that because they said no and they refused to give the phone, they put it inside their pants so the cops couldn't get it, they ended up beating them up. They would just grab them and beat them and, "All right, there you go. You can go on about your merry way. We didn't get nothing from you, but we at least gave you a beating. Maybe you'll learn."

Axel: The guy didn't like my whole attitude that I had with them, so he decided he took his phone out, he showed me a bag of... What was it? I think it was weed or I don't know what else it had in it, because it was a big bag, like a trash bag. Just full of stuff. And he's like, "Look, I've got this in my car right now in my trunk. If you don't hand over one of your phones," He's like, "And actually, the one I want is that one." He wanted the brand new one. "And actually, I want this one. So look, this is the deal. Either you give us the phone and everybody goes about their ways, or I take you in and I'm going to put this on you. There's no way that anybody can prove that it's not true. My partner's obviously going to go with me." He's like, "So you decided what you want to do. Do you want to go ahead and let us take you in and we'll put this big bag of stuff that I got with you, on you? Or you give me the phone?"

Axel: Then it's like, all right, I had a cop one time, I didn't have anything on me, no reason for them to even search me to begin with, everything was okay. But the problem was I had two phones. I had just bought a new phone, and I had my old phone that I was going to sell or give away to my ex-wife, so that she could have it and sell her phone. They caught me with... They pulled me over, searched me. They're like, "Why do you have two phones?" Like thought I stole one. I'm like, "No, I didn't. All my information's in both of the phones, I'll show you."

Axel: They're all in cahoots, really. In the end, what they all really want is just some money. If you offer them money, they're going to let you go. It's happened to a lot of people. It's happened even to me. They catch me and they tell me... They don't find nothing on me, but they don't like the fact that we act the way we act. We tell them we don't have anything and we get mad because they're searching us for no reason. They don't like our attitude that we take against them.

Axel: And if they catch you with something, they won't take you to jail. They'll just ask you for a bribe and they'll take 200 or 300 pesos from you. If you don't have any money, they'll take your phone. If you don't offer them the money or say, "I'm not going to give you any money," they'll scare you to act like they're going to take you to the jail. Then they give you a last chance

d they see anybody with tattoos, they'll pull you over and search you. It's probable cause, supposedly.

Axel: Yeah, because they say there's too much going around the area, as far as with drugs, with the robbings. People know that obviously we get some decent money because we speak English. They know the days that we get paid. The people that live around here in the streets and the cops know when we get paid, so there's cops out here every day, roaming around just looking and they see anybody with tattoos, they'll pull you over and search you. It's probable cause, supposedly.

Over here, you can't really trust that thing where somebody comes up to you and they're like, "Hey, I need some help, something's going on right here around the corner. Somebody's trying to hurt my mom or somebody's trying to hurt my sister." You can't even trust that because you might go around the corner and they're just going to jump you and rob you. It's all just in cahoots to get something out of you.

Axel: Same with my family, because my mom always told me, she's like, "Trust me, you don't want to go to Mexico." She's like, "Life over there is not as you picture it. It's like your cousins and everything, they say they're having fun over there, but they've been over there they're whole life."

y'all as a target more because not only for y'all as in general, but then also because they know that you have family over here, they try to use it as extortion and they have tried to call her a couple times and tell her that they have me and, "We have your son and you better send some money and blah, blah, blah."

And I'd just be like, "Oh yeah, we'll probably be here for a year and then my mom's going to want to move again and I'm going to have to start a whole new life all over." That's at the point I decided I wanted to go live with my dad. My dad had been living in the same area for about 10 years, so I was like, that is not going to be an issue at all, for him to move. He hasn't moved in 10 years, he's not going to move at all.

Axel: Half of it, mom was everywhere and then the other half, I was in a stable location where I actually met the friends that I have now that still talk to me now that I'm here and that still help me whenever they can. I don't even have to ask them, they'll just tell me, "Hey, right now I'm going to send you some money or I'm going to do this, I'm going to give your kids something, where can I meet them? Blah, blah, blah." I know that they're going to help me, but I don't like to ask them because it's not something that I don't really like to ask them for, for stuff because I know it's not their fault that I got deported or anything like that.

Axel: And once I moved over there, he did move a block or two down, just so we can go ahead and get a bigger apartment than where he was, because he was just living in a single bedroom apartment for himself because he never remarried after my mom. Once I moved with him, he moved about two blocks down just to another apartment where it was bigger space, where I could stay with him and from there, we never moved again. That's when I started doing from like seventh grade, all the way up till I finished my last six years.

Axel: Moving a lot and at that point, it kind of was something that I didn't enjoy really, because I wanted a stable home, something where I could build some friendships and know that I was going to have those friendships there for the long run. And I'd just be like, "Oh yeah, we'll probably be here for a year and then my mom's going to want to move again and I'm going to have to start a whole new life all over." That's at the point I decided I wanted to go live with my dad. My dad had been living in the same area for about 10 years, so I was like, that is not going to be an issue at all, for him to move. He hasn't moved in 10 years, he's not going to move at all.

Axel: Moving a lot and at that point, it kind of was something that I didn't enjoy really, because I wanted a stable home, something where I could build some friendships and know that I was going to have those friendships there for the long run.

Axel: Moving a lot and at that point, it kind of was something that I didn't enjoy really, because I wanted a stable home, something where I could build some friendships and know that I was going to have those friendships there for the long run.

Axel: No. When we went over there, I was the only child. Once I got over there, then my mom and my dad got divorced when I was around four. My mom already had my stepdad kind of on the side and my dad knew my stepdad, actually. They actually used to be coworkers together, so even to this day, they still talk to each other and they get along whenever it comes down to family situations, they get along. They can sit in front of each other and talk and stuff. But once they separated, that's when my mom had my stepsister, my stepbrother and my other stepsister. As in my dad and my mom, I was the only child.

ype of crossfire, and so they wanted to avoid that for us and they also wanted a better life for themselves and see for their whole planning the family type part, so they decided they wanted to come to the States. And they came, they crossed over when I was really young. My mom told me that she carried me in her arms whenever she crossed me over, and so it was... I don't have any idea about it, but that's what she told me. I kind of have an imagination of what kind of went down.

and there was a lot of narc activity going there and it got to the point where one of my uncles got injured in some type of crossfire, and so they wanted to avoid that for us and they also wanted a better life for themselves and see for their whole planning the family type part, so they decided they wanted to come to the States. And they came, they crossed over when I was really young. My mom told me that she carried me in her arms whenever she crossed me over, and so it was... I don't have any idea about it, but that's what she told me. I kind of have an imagination of what kind of went down.

. Talk a little bit about why you went to the US and the circumstances surrounding it, how old you were, that sort of thing.

Ivan: Well, my hopes are now to stay here. I want to stay in Teletech. I've been here for so long—well, not so long, but since I started. And so many people that are being there, they're already gone. So, we started together, but there's only like three of us, but I want to stay there. I want to stick around. Yeah.

Anita: And if you would've stayed in the States, what do you think you would have done with your life?Ivan: I would have still been a painter. I would have probably got my own company since everybody gets one down there. I got friends that had their own company of painting, so maybe I would've done that too.

Ivan: Yeah. What I like about this job is that it makes me feel like at home, like in the States. Once I go in there, I forget about everything. Just when I do go out the reality hits me and I see that I'm not in the States, I'm in Mexico City. But I do like to be in there. If I could, I'd stay in there. Like I do overtime, I like to be talking with the customers, you know, in the States. Yeah. We have a good conversation sometimes.

Ivan: Sometimes the customers, they don't understand, they don't know where some stuff is at. It just—sometimes it gets irritating after a while. Yeah, but it's a good job. I can't complain.

Ivan: Right there, TeleTech. I work for Dish. I've been working for six months, but they have already moved me up like three... Well, the first one, it was the customer service, then tech and then right now I'm on level three.

Anita: So here, what's it like working at Teletech?Ivan: It's a pretty nice job actually. I like dealing with customers. I like taking calls, it's nice.Anita: But don't people scream at you?Ivan: Not if you talk to them, you know? Like you got to talk to them... But I mean, I do get kind of irritated sometimes. [Chuckles].

Ivan: No, I did that when I was in jail in Arizona.Anita: You did the stars?Ivan: Yeah.Anita: And so, how did you manage not to get involved in a gang when so many people did?

Anita: What are your children's names?Ivan: Abigail, Aubrey and Austin. And Emily, but I didn't have her at the moment, at the time before.

nita: When you were growing up, were you part of a gang?Ivan: No, I was never. These tats on my face. I did them because of my kids. They all start with the letter A and at the time I only had three. So, I only have three stars because they're going to be stars. And I did them on my eyes because they're always going to be in my sight. So just three stars. They're my stars. And like, all my kids start with the letter A.

Anita: When you were growing up, were you part of a gang?Ivan: No, I was never. These tats on my face. I did them because of my kids. They all start with the letter A and at the time I only had three. So, I only have three stars because they're going to be stars. And I did them on my eyes because they're always going to be in my sight. So just three stars. They're my stars. And like, all my kids start with the letter A.

I was trying to fight my case, but it was taking too long. I was getting too stressed out being inside in jail so I just signed the papers. I just wanted to get out, so I just took the charge.

Anita: What don't you like about Mexico?Ivan: I just don't like how some people act you know? Or the cops here too, like they're dangerous themselves.

Ivan: I don't know, but they did. They didn't want to take the charge. But I mean, I was just with them because I was going to Walmart to do a return and they stopped us in a traffic stop and they blamed it all on me.

Anita: So, they charged you instead of the person who had the drugs?Ivan: Yes. Yes, that's true.Anita: Why'd they do that?Ivan: I don't know, but they did. They didn't want to take the charge. But I mean, I was just with them because I was going to Walmart to do a return and they stopped us in a traffic stop and they blamed it all on me. I was trying to fight my case, but it was taking too long. I was getting too stressed out being inside in jail so I just signed the papers. I just wanted to get out, so I just took the charge.

Anita: So, what happened to you in the States? So that you ended up back here?Ivan: I was in the wrong car. So, I was in a car that, they pulled us over and I was just with the people, but they'd said that—well they found drugs in the car. So, they blamed me. But I was on the passenger side. So, I know that the rules is whoever's driving or the car owner has to be responsible. But they did not take it like that. They just said... I didn't want to give them my name because I was scared. So, they took me for that too, giving a false name. But on top of that they put all the charges on me. So, they charged me for all the drugs because they didn't want to take the charge.

Anita: How do Mexicans treat you?Ivan: It depends. Some people, they just see that you got good stuff and they just go ahead and rob you. Or they'll just pull up on the motorcycle and just get the money away from you, or whatever you do have. I know when you are in the States it's not even like that. Or if it happens, it's one in million, or you know? But not all the time. Like here, I've been robbed here like three times already.

Anita: What did you like?Ivan: Everything. Everything. Even the air. [Chuckles]. Yeah, everything was different. It's very different. I honestly don't like it down here. I mean, I don't like it. But then there's some people, I have some cousins, they don't like to be there. So, I mean, sometimes we like to joke around, let's trade spots, you know. Because they like Mexico and I don't like Mexico. They don't like being in the States. But that's because they were born over there. If they were born over here, they would be the same thing.

Anita: What are your best memories of the United States?Ivan: Well, being with my family, being with my kids. That is one of the best memories I do have.Anita: Did you like living in the United States?Ivan: Yeah. I did like living in the United States. Yes.

Anita: Do you feel safe in Mexico?Ivan: Well, not really. I don't like the environment and the cops, they're all... No, it's different here. But I mean, I have to stick with it.

Ivan: Right there, TeleTech. I work for Dish. I've been working for six months, but they have already moved me up like three... Well, the first one, it was the customer service, then tech and then right now I'm on level three.

Anita: How long have you been back in Mexico?Ivan: Almost a year. I've been here since September.Anita: You live in Mexico City?Ivan: Yes.Anita: Who do you live with now?Ivan: I live by myself.Anita: Do you live in an apartment, or?Ivan: Yes.Anita: So, you've worked, what job?

Anita: Okay. When you came back to Mexico, did any authorities receive you?Ivan: Yeah, in the border.Ivan: Well, they give us some lunch and they took us from the spot that we landed to the bus stations because it's too dangerous down here.

Anita: What's a Jail Dog Program?Ivan: The Jail Dog Program is where the police department gets dogs from the streets and they help them to get a home. So, we had to train them. How to sit, how to roll, how to do stuff like that, with treats. And then the dogs, they put them on the news and then they'll have them do tricks and people will come and adopt the dogs. It's actually—Anita: Sort of like a rescue program?Ivan: Yeah, it's actually on Facebook. It's called the Gwinnett Jail Dogs.

Anita: In immigration or in federal?Ivan: In immigration. I was never in federal.Anita: Where was that?Ivan: Well, the first time was in Phoenix, Arizona, and then the second time was in Atlanta, Georgia. Actually, I was in Gwinnett, Gwinnett County. And right there I was in the Jail Dog Program, so I used to sleep with my dog and everything in my cell.

Anita: Is that a misdemeanor?Ivan: Yes. Well it was kind of, yeah.Anita: Were you detained?Ivan: Yes, I was detained.Anita: For how long?Ivan: The first time I was detained for maybe about six, seven months. The second time I was detained for almost a year.

Anita: Possession of?Ivan: Of drugs.Anita: Of drugs?Ivan: Yes.

Anita: So, in one word, how did this happen? Were you detained by the police? Were you imprisoned? Was there a raid at where you worked? Were you in the wrong place at the wrong time?Ivan: No. Detained with the police.Anita: Was it for a traffic violation, affiliation with gangs, some little crime or some bigger crime?Ivan: No, it was possession.Anita: Possession of?Ivan: Of drugs.Anita: Of drugs?Ivan: Yes.

Anita: What caused you to leave the United States? Was it your decision? Were you detained and deported?Ivan: I was detained and deported.

Anita: Who did you live with when you were in the United States?Ivan: I lived by myself. I was renting an apartment.Anita: But when you first went?Ivan: Oh, when I first went? With my parents.Anita: Did you have brothers and sisters?Ivan: No, I'm the only child.

Anita: Wow. How many years did you work in the U.S.?Ivan: Well, ever since I was fifteen or fourteen. My first job was at a Rainforest Cafe, down in Arizona.Ivan: I did the work for, I worked there in a couple of jobs. I was a janitor. I used to work for ASU.

I actually went and painted the Braves stadium in Atlanta, Georgia.Anita: Really?Ivan: Yes.Anita: You painted the Braves stadium?Ivan: Yeah, I painted inside. With one of my bosses. We painted the inside of that stadium. The hotel, it's called the Omni Hotel right now. Yes.

Anita: You painted the Braves stadium?Ivan: Yeah, I painted inside. With one of my bosses. We painted the inside of that stadium. The hotel, it's called the Omni Hotel right now. Yes.

Anita: Do you know why they took you?Ivan: They wanted a better life.

Anita: What kind of jobs?Ivan: Restaurant jobs. My last job was painting. I used to be a painter. I used to paint houses, interior and exterior houses. I actually went and painted the Braves stadium in Atlanta, Georgia.

Anita: Did you work in the U.S.?Ivan: Yes, I did. I had a lot of jobs in the U.S.

Anita: So you went to school? Until what grade did you go to school?Ivan: I went until twelfth grade.

Anita: How did you learn English?Ivan: By going to school. I went to preschool, kindergarten, then I went to middle school, high school.

Anita: How did you enter the U.S.? With a visa or did you just cross the border?Ivan: We just crossed.

Anita: How old are you Ivan?Ivan: How old? I'm twenty-seven years old.Anita: You were born in Mexico?Ivan: Yes. I was born in Mexico.Anita: Where in Mexico?Ivan: In the city of Mexico.Anita: Why did you migrate to the United States?Ivan: I didn't. Well, my parents took me when I was a kid. I was only like three years old and so they took me to the States. I was a little boy. I did not know.

hey're asking me to do everything that I've already done, and what they're asking me to do is subpar compared to the education that I've had." So it's extremely discouraging.

uisa: I had to go through hell in order to get my paperwork done for school—through hell, and then I still had to do two years. If that was somebody else with a little bit less drive or a little bit less enthusiasm, they would've given up and they wouldn't have continued with their studies. They would've said, "Fuck it. Why? They're putting me against the wall. How am I supposed to do anything?” Anyone else for sure would've, and I know a lot of cases where they're like, "Dude, it's just too hard. It's too hard to keep going. They're asking me to do everything that I've already done, and what they're asking me to do is subpar compared to the education that I've had." So it's extremely discouraging.

Luisa: I had to go through hell in order to get my paperwork done for school—through hell, and then I still had to do two years. If that was somebody else with a little bit less drive or a little bit less enthusiasm, they would've given up and they wouldn't have continued with their studies. They would've said, "Fuck it. Why? They're putting me against the wall. How am I supposed to do anything?” Anyone else for sure would've, and I know a lot of cases where they're like, "Dude, it's just too hard. It's too hard to keep going. They're asking me to do everything that I've already done, and what they're asking me to do is subpar compared to the education that I've had." So it's extremely discouraging.

Luisa: I think they've gained a lot. I think Mexico has gained a lot, but they don't know how to appreciate it. They pretty much throw us aside. Unfortunately, the Mexican government does not think that people who are returning from the States have anything to offer, and they're dead wrong about that. Honestly, if you look at a lot of these people that are coming back, they have so much to offer. They have so much to give and they have so much drive and they're hungry, but they don't make it easy for us.

Luisa: I think they've gained a lot. I think Mexico has gained a lot, but they don't know how to appreciate it. They pretty much throw us aside. Unfortunately, the Mexican government does not think that people who are returning from the States have anything to offer, and they're dead wrong about that. Honestly, if you look at a lot of these people that are coming back, they have so much to offer. They have so much to give and they have so much drive and they're hungry, but they don't make it easy for us.

Luisa: I think they've gained a lot. I think Mexico has gained a lot, but they don't know how to appreciate it. They pretty much throw us aside. Unfortunately, the Mexican government does not think that people who are returning from the States have anything to offer, and they're dead wrong about that. Honestly, if you look at a lot of these people that are coming back, they have so much to offer. They have so much to give and they have so much drive and they're hungry, but they don't make it easy for us.

Luisa: I'm pretty sure if I wasn't going to be an oncologist, maybe a neuroscientist or a neurosurgeon. People like me, I'm driven, man. I'm extremely driven. When you grow up with all of these people telling you that you can't, you want it more and you want it more and you have this hunger inside of you that you want it and you need it and you're going to make it, and I'm pretty sure I could run laps around all these fuckers that were born citizens. So they did—they lost somebody who can better society. I'm pretty sure I had a lot to offer … in a lot of senses.

Luisa: I've thought about it. I've thought about it a lot [Chuckles]. It scares me because he has become my home. He's helped me through a lot. He's helped me get through a lot of traumas. He's helped me stand up to my father because I was not able to have a conversation with him. I was not able to say no to my dad [Sniffles]. I always wanted to please my dad because I never had him in my life, so I wanted him to be happy with me now. He's helped me a lot, so scary shit [Chuckles]. I don't like thinking about it.

Luisa: International relations because I am a fucking citizen of the world. Every time somebody asks me, "Where are you from?" I have no idea how to answer because I don't feel Mexican and I don't feel American. I don't know what I am, so fuck it. I'm going to be a citizen of the world [Chuckles]. I'm going to take all of this and I'm going to be international. That's it. That's it. We're going to be international. That's it, because genuinely, honest to God, I don't know how to answer when somebody asks me.

Luisa: International relations because I am a fucking citizen of the world. Every time somebody asks me, "Where are you from?" I have no idea how to answer because I don't feel Mexican and I don't feel American. I don't know what I am, so fuck it. I'm going to be a citizen of the world [Chuckles]. I'm going to take all of this and I'm going to be international. That's it. That's it. We're going to be international. That's it, because genuinely, honest to God, I don't know how to answer when somebody asks me.

Luisa: International relations because I am a fucking citizen of the world. Every time somebody asks me, "Where are you from?" I have no idea how to answer because I don't feel Mexican and I don't feel American. I don't know what I am, so fuck it. I'm going to be a citizen of the world [Chuckles]. I'm going to take all of this and I'm going to be international. That's it. That's it. We're going to be international. That's it, because genuinely, honest to God, I don't know how to answer when somebody asks me.Luisa: I'm not sure if you've seen when they've asked me, "Where are you from?" and I'm like, "Where was I born? Where was I raised? Where's my family from? Where do I live? What do you want to know?” Because “where are you from?” is a very loaded question to me. It's a lot about identity, and I think a human being needs this [Pause] identity, this sense of belonging, and I don't feel like I belong anywhere. I don't feel like I have a home. Like a real one. At this point, I think my home is my partner and that scares the shit out of me [Chuckles]Luisa: I've thought about it. I've thought about it a lot [Chuckles]. It scares me because he has become my home. He's helped me through a lot. He's helped me get through a lot of traumas. He's helped me stand up to my father because I was not able to have a conversation with him. I was not able to say no to my dad [Sniffles]. I always wanted to please my dad because I never had him in my life, so I wanted him to be happy with me now. He's helped me a lot, so scary shit [Chuckles]. I don't like thinking about it.

Luisa: International relations because I am a fucking citizen of the world. Every time somebody asks me, "Where are you from?" I have no idea how to answer because I don't feel Mexican and I don't feel American. I don't know what I am, so fuck it. I'm going to be a citizen of the world [Chuckles]. I'm going to take all of this and I'm going to be international. That's it. That's it. We're going to be international. That's it, because genuinely, honest to God, I don't know how to answer when somebody asks me.

Anita: Like Mr. R?Luisa: Like Mr. R, yes. R___, that's his name.Luisa: Yes. He was pretty great. He would talk about philosophy. He helped a lot.

Luisa: Yes. I miss the snow like crazy [Continues crying]. I remember the first Christmas we spent here was … It didn't feel like Christmas. It did not feel like Christmas. It felt weird. I wasn't used to it. [Pause] I gave that to the teacher. The teacher published it. My literature teacher was extremely well known in the community. He's world renowned, I think, because he is the host for the International Poets Meeting. He's the host, so I'm pretty sure he's well known in the literature world, and he published a lot of my poetry too because I had a lot of poetry—and in English.

Luisa: He understood English and he would tear up with a lot of the stuff that I would give him. Very, very understanding, but we bonded over literature because he was extremely, extremely into books.

Luisa: The sparrow gets old and keeps living there and he's like, "You know what? I love this place and I love my friends, and even though it kills me to leave all my friends behind here in the jungle, I need to go back to my home," [Chokes up] so the sparrow makes his journey and he dies. He makes it to the snow and he dies looking at the tree where he had his nest. [Crying] My literature teacher I think was pretty impacted by that. He was pretty understanding.

He makes it to the snow and he dies looking at the tree where he had his nest. [Crying] My literature teacher I think was pretty impacted by that. He was pretty understanding.

My entire day schedule was full, full, full, full, full, full, full. Every single day was like let's go, go, go, go, go because I'm going to get to the best university I can.

Luisa: Hard at first. I was bullied at first. I remember … because my Spanish wasn't the best. When I got here, I had not practiced my Spanish in so long. I knew how to read and write, but my grammar was not the best either. I had kindergarten education. That's how long I [Chuckles] … everything else, a lot of my teachers were understanding. My literature teacher was extremely understanding. I thank him for that. He was the one that asked me to write and I wrote a short story about a sparrow getting lost in the snow and then turning up in the jungle, and the sparrow makes friends with all the cockatoos and the snake and the anaconda and they're all bros and he learns to speak their language—not very well, but he learns.

Luisa: I do. I remember my dogs. I remember my mom. I remember my dad. I remember my grandparents. I remember everything, and they didn't remember anything. Their entire life was over there, so that's just my bitterness. We moved back and I was so depressed. I don't think I've ever been that depressed in my life. I had to go back to high school because … even with the IB program. I killed myself. What was that worth, all that effort, and all that [Chokes up]? What was it worth? Nothing. I had to go back to this broken education system in Mexico which I could run laps around the fucking curriculum and I had to redo it in order to go to university, and fuck, that sucked.

They don't remember Mexico at all, so I don't think they remember any of the life that we had here.

Luisa: I think my mom felt guilty. I think she didn't want me to be by myself. She felt guilty that she didn't allow me to apply for DACA, so she's like, "Okay. That's okay." Eventually my sisters are going to have to go through this and let's do it now so the change doesn't hurt them as much when it comes down to it. They had it a little easier, I think [Chuckles]. They didn't have to go through it twice, or maybe that's just my bitterness, but I had to go through that uprooting and going into a strange country twice [Chuckles]. They don't remember Mexico at all, so I don't think they remember any of the life that we had here.

Luisa: I made the decision of returning, and I uprooted my sisters. My little sister was a year old when we left. She knew nothing about Mexico. She barely spoke Spanish, so I selfishly made everyone move back to Mexico.

Luisa: When I told him I was moving to Mexico, he offered to marry me too so I would stay behind. I think he kind of knew at that point. I think E___ knew. He wasn't a stupid guy. He called my mom mommy. He wasn't stupid.

Yes and no. It took me a while. I was even going to marry my best friend, E___. I was like, "Let's get married. Let's get married." He was my best friend, but he didn't know why I wanted to get married [Laughs]. In my mind, I was like, "Fuck it. Let's do this. I'll get papers and I'll continue my education. That's fine. Once we're married, he's stuck with me. I'll tell him then.” [Pause] I even thought about that. I was getting extremely desperate, but—

But in my mom's mind and I think in every single Mexican or undocumented person's mind is that distrust of the government. That they're going to have you in this database and they're going to know exactly where you live and who lives with you and where you are. I don't want that, and she did not allow that. I know. I know. I could've, but I didn't.

Anita: Did you qualify for DACA?Luisa: Yes, and that's when it had come out. Right when I had graduated high school was when DACA came out, and my mom said no. She made me feel extremely selfish for wanting it. She let me know that, "You know what? Yes, you're going to get what you want, but you're going to affect all of us." But in my mom's mind and I think in every single Mexican or undocumented person's mind is that distrust of the government. That they're going to have you in this database and they're going to know exactly where you live and who lives with you and where you are. I don't want that, and she did not allow that. I know. I know. I could've, but I didn't.

Luisa: I wanted Northwestern. I had my eye set on Northwestern. I don't know what it was about Northwestern that called to me, but I wanted Northwestern. That's what I wanted, and it wasn't unachievable. One of my friends got into Brown University and she had worse grades than I did, so I was like, "Northwestern's going to be easy. I got this." I wanted to be an oncologist—yes, an oncologist, cancer. I don't know why [Chuckles]. I don't know. Human tragedy, I wanted to save people. That's been my thing. I want to save people. I want to make people better. So [Pause] I killed myself in school. 4.6 GPA. I had all these extracurriculars.Luisa: I was set to go into a good future. That's what it was, but when it came down to it, my mom was like, "No. You know what? You can't. You don't have papers. You can't continue your education here. We cannot afford to pay your entire tuition. We cannot afford to pay for your housing or your books. Each book, that's like $5000 for books. We can't do that. I'm sorry."

Luisa: I wanted to get into a good university. I was like, "Okay, high school's fine. Okay, whatever. We're going to make do. I'm going to be the best student wherever I am." So I started swimming, track, volleyball, softball, everything, extracurriculars like crazy, book club. Whatever it was, I needed it. The environmental club, everything. I started doing a bunch of community work—I always liked community work anyway. Shelters, dog shelters, everything. I did everything. My entire day schedule was full, full, full, full, full, full, full. Every single day was like let's go, go, go, go, go because I'm going to get to the best university I can.

Luisa: I remember I had a personal project that I was supposed to work on my entire year. I did that in three days. The day I was supposed to learn to sculpt, I learned to sculpt [Pause] in thirty minutes and then [Chuckles] I sculpted something—a huge tiger—and I turned it in and it was one of the top. There were about 140 people that turned it in. It was one of the top twenty projects and I did that in three days, so it was still not a challenge. So I started doing extracurriculars.

Anita: How did being undocumented affect your education?Luisa: Being undocumented affected my education. The first time was when I wanted to apply to Whitney Young—when I wanted to go to a different high school. I had the grades for it [Chuckles]. I've always had the grades for it, but they were asking … I don't remember what kind of document they were asking for that scared me into not applying, and I was like, "You know what? Let’s not. I don't want to. It's not worth it if I get deported. I don't need to be—it's not necessary." So I went to my local high school, which … not the best high school, Washington High School, but they had the IB program.

Luisa: I wanted to be challenged and I did my research. Whitney Young is supposed to be for people who are gifted and I wanted to be challenged. I wanted something more. Everything has always been extremely easy for me. When I put my mind to it, I get what I want. It sounds bad, but it's true. I think the problem with human beings is that you’re your only true enemy. You block yourself from doing everything in life, and the moment that you accept you can do everything, you can actually do everything [Laughs, sniffles].Luisa: That's what I wanted. I wanted a challenge. I wanted something more. I wanted teachers who actually listened. I wanted teachers who paid attention. I didn't want teachers who were bored and sick of it because these students are like Puerto Rican and gang members and they don't matter. I didn't want that. I wanted somebody who cared, but I didn't get that. I kind of got it. I got the IB program, which was great [Chuckles]. Still not a challenge. It was still not a challenge.Luisa: I remember I had a personal project that I was supposed to work on my entire year. I did that in three days. The day I was supposed to learn to sculpt, I learned to sculpt [Pause] in thirty minutes and then [Chuckles] I sculpted something—a huge tiger—and I turned it in and it was one of the top. There were about 140 people that turned it in. It was one of the top twenty projects and I did that in three days, so it was still not a challenge. So I started doing extracurriculars.

Luisa: Whitney Young? Because I've never felt challenged by any of my teachers. All their curriculums I've laughed at. I run circles around my teachers and most of them hated me because I'd finish my work and I'm pretty sure they hated me.

Luisa: Being undocumented in the States, I think it's like being a bird in a golden cage. That's what it is. You're not allowed to go anywhere. You're not allowed to move. You're not allowed to do many things, but you're in this pretty golden cage that looks nice and you have certain things, but you don’t know what it’s like out there. It's awful. It is. It's like being in a golden cage.

You can't let them know, so they don't really know you. It's a big part of it. You can't share the fear with anyone. You can't share this anxiety that you live with every single day. My mom was driving around and every time she'd drive, it was anxiety. I'd feel anxiety because what if she got pulled over? My mom—she’s an amazing driver—but what if she got pulled over? What if we got caught? That's it for everyone. We're done. That kind of thing affects you and you're not allowed to tell anyone. You have to live in the shadows. Nobody really knows.

Luisa: Being undocumented is being in the shadows. You feel this entire barrier between you and your friends and your teachers and the people that you're around and surrounding yourself with. You

Luisa: Being undocumented is being in the shadows. You feel this entire barrier between you and your friends and your teachers and the people that you're around and surrounding yourself wit

Luisa: Being undocumented is being in the shadows. You feel this entire barrier between you and your friends and your teachers and the people that you're around and surrounding yourself with. You can never get too close to someone because you have this big thing lying in front of you. You can't let them know, so they don't really know you. It's a big part of it. You can't share the fear with anyone. You can't share this anxiety that you live with every single day. My mom was driving around and every time she'd drive, it was anxiety. I'd feel anxiety because what if she got pulled over? My mom—she’s an amazing driver—but what if she got pulled over? What if we got caught? That's it for everyone. We're done. That kind of thing affects you and you're not allowed to tell anyone. You have to live in the shadows. Nobody really knows.

Luisa: J___, who was a friend of mine, was undocumented and she said, "I am undocumented. I am a Mexican citizen. I am not an American." She was put into a little room and she was not allowed to go in. She was just caged in there and that was very … that marked me like, no, I can't tell anyone. I'm seeing what's happening to these people. I can't tell anyone, so nobody ever knew.

Luisa: J___, who was a friend of mine, was undocumented and she said, "I am undocumented. I am a Mexican citizen. I am not an American." She was put into a little room and she was not allowed to go in. She was just caged in there and that was very … that marked me like, no, I can't tell anyone. I'm seeing what's happening to these people. I can't tell anyone, so nobody ever knew.

The Argonne Science Facility—research facility. It's in Illinois, and when you go in—I'm not sure what kind of testing they're doing there—[Chuckles] but they ask you if you're an American citizen or not.

Luisa: Yes, this is a secret. My mother did not allow us to talk about it. Even when it came up, I could feel my heart shake and my palms get sweaty because I was so scared of getting deported. That was such a big thing. I remember we went to this science center. The Argonne Science Facility—research facility. It's in Illinois, and when you go in—I'm not sure what kind of testing they're doing there—[Chuckles] but they ask you if you're an American citizen or not.

Luisa: To this day, none of my friends know that I had no papers. None of them. That's saying a lot because [Chuckles]—

isa: Her mother, I remember one time she's driving me home, and she asks extremely aggressively if I am illegal or not. And I remember being scared like a deer in the headlights. “No, I'm not. I'm not.” I was so scared of this mostly because one of my uncles saw somebody—an ex-girlfriend, I think it was, pretty much accused him of being illegal. He was deported and we had this huge thing in our heads that if somebody knew we were illegal, we were going to be deported and ripped away from everything that we knew. So I was not allowed to tell anyone.

Luisa: But yes, Mr. R was beautiful. He was a lawyer. He was a criminal lawyer. I'm not sure what kind of lawyer he was, but he hated defending people who were guilty. That man—oh my God I love that man—he hated it. He hated defending people who were guilty. There's this program called the “Golden Apple Program” where you can switch from being whatever it is that your career is to being a teacher, and it's what he did. Beautiful, beautiful man.

: Well, I think [Pause] our entire lives pretty much we were just … I was not allowed to tell anyone. I knew I was undocumented probably my entire life, but I think it never really hit home until certain things started happening. For example, my best friend, a Yugoslavian, her family is extremely very, very white [Chuckles]. Her grandparents are Yugoslavian. Fun fact, her grandfather was in the Second World War. I got a lot of good stories from him. [Laughs]Luisa: He was a prisoner of war. [Pause] Her mother asked me—and I mean this girl would spend every single day at my home, or I would spend every single day at her home or her grandparents’ home. If my mom couldn't find me, she'd call L___’s mom and if L___'s mom couldn't find me, she'd call my mom, and that's how it was. Her sister would call me like, "Hey. Could you tell L___ that she needs to come on this day because we're going to have the family barbecue? You're invited, too, obviously." All family events I was invited to. I was at her cousin's wedding. That's how involved we were. We were best friends.

: Well, I think [Pause] our entire lives pretty much we were just … I was not allowed to tell anyone. I knew I was undocumented probably my entire life, but I think it never really hit home until certain things started happening. For example, my best friend, a Yugoslavian, her family is extremely very, very white [Chuckles]. Her grandparents are Yugoslavian. Fun fact, her grandfather was in the Second World War. I got a lot of good stories from him. [Laughs]Luisa: He was a prisoner of war. [Pause] Her mother asked me—and I mean this girl would spend every single day at my home, or I would spend every single day at her home or her grandparents’ home. If my mom couldn't find me, she'd call L___’s mom and if L___'s mom couldn't find me, she'd call my mom, and that's how it was. Her sister would call me like, "Hey. Could you tell L___ that she needs to come on this day because we're going to have the family barbecue? You're invited, too, obviously." All family events I was invited to. I was at her cousin's wedding. That's how involved we were. We were best friends.

Luisa: I begged him. I begged him to take me with him. [Pause] That didn't happen, my mom was not having that shit [Chuckles]. She was like, "No, that's not happening with us."Anita: But she allowed him to see you?Luisa: She allowed him. Honestly, I respect my mom a lot for never speaking badly upon my dad. To this day, she will not say bad things about my father. Whatever may have happened with them, she knows that that's on them and she knows that our relationship with my father is completely separate from their relationship, and I admire that greatly because I don't think I'd be able to separate the two that easily. No, she never spoke badly upon him, but I think ... My dad said this in the entire life that I'm his favorite child, and I think that was also the way of my mother getting back at him for everything that he did to her, which is not right, but we're human beings.Luisa: When I would read, I would make certain facial expressions or gestures that reminded my mom so much of my dad that she would make me leave the room. She was like, "I can't see you right now. Leave the room. You're so much like your dad. Leave." It really affected her. I get it.

Anita: Your dad came when you were how old?Luisa: My dad came when I was about nine. That was the first time I saw my dad after three, four years?

Luisa: Yes, my dad hired somebody to find us. My mom really did not leave any trace at all. She just pretty much left like a thief in the night, literally [Chuckles]. They eventually tracked us down and I got a phone call. We got a phone call. I think it was one of my grandparents who answered. Very reluctantly, they handed over the phone and it was my dad and I remember crying. I remember being hysterical. I remember being like, "Oh, my God. This is my dad. He's here. This is my dad. He's not gone.” It's weird, but I thought it was two different worlds and, in this world, I no longer can have my dad. That was the way I started to cope with it. The States were not my dad and this is where my dad was, so we were on different planets now. It was not something that was possible.Luisa: Then my dad came to visit and I remember begging him to take me with him, and my mom was not having it. She was not having it at all. By this point, I think he had already remarried, but she was not having it.

Luisa: Yes. There came a point. We were in the [Pause] process of getting our permanent residency card in order to be able to go to school, and the lawyer let my mother know that me and my sister—my other sister—were not going to make it because once you hit eighteen, you're no longer under the case that you originally filed, so the best option for us would be adoption. We would be adopted by an American citizen in order to get our American status fixed, and that was something my mom and I contemplated for a long, long time, and she was going to go through with it, but my dad put a huge stop to that and was like, "That's not happening. You're stupid. That's not a thing. These are my kids. You're not letting that happen."Luisa: It was going to be a family member, not a close family member, but these were the lengths that you go through to try to get through this. I didn't have a normal childhood. I never got to learn to drive. I didn't go to drivers ed. I didn't get to travel with my best friend to DisneyLand because my mom was so scared of—

Luisa: His wife or his ex-wife was Mexican. He spoke perfect Spanish, so he and my mother were very—they would joke around. It was extremely funny to watch because when other people were around, this big, big figure would joke around with my mom and everyone would be like, "Oh, my God. What's happening?" But my mom was just that kind of person. His sons, I actually grew up with. I know his sons, extremely handsome, very educated people, very, very, very nice. I visited their home quite a few times in Hyde Park. They were great people.

Luisa: It was strange at first, and I would see their faces when they would come like, “What…?” Then it just became normal. They became normal. It was completely normal. They were friends in the end. My mom was friends with some of these people in the very end. My mom's a beautiful human being. It was strange at first, but I think it was great. Ismael [Exclamation], that’s his name. His father died. He was the biggest figure and he took over.

Luisa: I remember all of these black people coming to my home and they spoke Arabic with my mother and it was extremely [Chuckles] interesting to watch. We went to their homes, I think—[Pause] I don't remember his name, but my mom was extremely close to the main, main, main Muslim figure in the United States because there are not a lot of people who specialize in their attire. It's a very limited market. I think there's only about two or three stores that actually do it in the entire United States, and my mother was independent, so she was doing well for herself in that regard, and it was great. I got to meet a lot of people.

Luisa: [Sniffles] Because of my mom, I got to meet extremely interesting people that opened up my worldview more so than it already was, because reading transports you to different places and different languages and cultures and you learn so much, and you feel like you have actually been there, but you've never been. It's funny, but that's how it works. My mom, she started working for this store [unclear] and she was doing her design school, and they specialized in Muslim attire and my mom was like, "You know what? I'm going to be independent," so she moves aside. She starts her own thing, and she starts making a bunch of clothes.

isa: I'm not sure if you're familiar with Maus, the comic books. I painted this huge painting because I painted as well [Chuckles]. Yes, I paint, as well. It was another emotional or creative outlet that I had, and I painted this huge thing for him and he still has it. I've asked him about it recently and he'll take a picture of the painting. Yes, so Mr. R was someone beautiful and he taught me that [Pause] life is short and you need to seize the day. You need to take life by the balls [Chuckles].

Luisa: I'm not sure if you're familiar with Maus, the comic books. I painted this huge painting because I painted as well [Chuckles].

It’s tattooed back here. Realism to me was … it's real. Human beings are selfish by nature, but the beauty of it is that we have our own free will and we can go above our nature and we can do great things, so this just reminds me that I'm not just an animal that's looking for my own benefit, if that makes sense.

Luisa: There was this one book by Clive Owen, I believe, something about the demons. I don't know. We had a huge discussion about that book. He would give me a bunch of books from his collection and we would discuss it. We would discuss the original. We would discuss Niccolò Machiavelli. I actually have “the end justifies the means” tattooed on me.

Luisa: Mr. R. is the best teacher I have had and he changed my life. Mr. R is a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful human being. [Pause] I had a lot of teachers that would not … They would question me and they would ... All the stuff that I would write, they would question if I was okay mentally because of all this darkness [Chuckles] that I would write about, because a lot of my stories or a lot of my poetry was extremely dark. I don't think that's a bad thing you know. I think that's just trying to get rid of the … it's a catalyst. You're trying to get rid of everything that's inside of you, and that's how I did it.Luisa: Mr. R was the first one that recognized it as something good. We still keep in touch—beautiful human being. I knew this. He would speak to me like we were adults—like I was an adult. I was a thirteen-year-old girl and we had conversations like adults. I don't know how appropriate it was or what he saw in me, but we had conversations like adults. I would stay after class for hours just discussing books that he would give me, and he would give me books out of his collection for me to read.

Luisa: Deal with me anymore. I guess she didn't know where to put me. She didn't know what to do with me, she didn't know how to teach me, so her solution was to put me aside and not have to deal with me, so I had to pretty much be invisible for half the class. Just put my head down and not say a word. So I picked up English extremely fast because I had to [Chuckles]. I had to pick up English very, very, very fast or that was going to keep happening. I didn't want that to keep happening, so I picked it up.

Luisa: Yes. I've read Freud, Nietzsche. Crime and Punishment was a huge one. That one changed me a lot. There's this thought of, “are you above the law? Is anybody above the law?” Yes, I was big on reading. I loved reading [Chuckles]. Then absurdism. I'm big on reading [Chuckles].

Luisa: No, I read historical fiction as well. I had an obsession with the Yellow Fever and the Bubonic Plague. I had an obsession with the original Los Cantos [Los Cantos de Maldoror], The Iliad, The Odyssey, Dante's Inferno. I was fascinated with Dante's Inferno, and then I got into Boticelli, the man who actually portrayed Dante's Inferno. So yes, I was a huge reader [Chuckles].Luisa: I was fascinated by human tragedy—extremely fascinated by human tragedy. There came a point where all I read was about the Holocaust, children's tales, Anne Frank's tales, and The Book Thief. I have a signed copy of The Book Thief because it is one of my favorite books ever. Have you read The Book Thief? [Exclamation] Great. I haven't seen the movie. Don't ever want to watch it [Chuckles], but the book … I don't know. [Pause] I don't know why I'm so fascinated by human tragedy [Pained Laughter]. And the Black Plague, huge thing. I got really into the Black Plague. That was about in the 1400s where Mr. Shakespeare was around and when Mr. Niccolò Machiavelli was around, as well. Yes, I was into history, historical fiction. I was into everything.

Anita: Was there a space at home where you went to read?

Luisa: I'm not sure if you're familiar with this but in grade school, they give you this little magazine that's for Scholastic and they let you buy all these books. So my mom would give me a budget in order for me to buy all the books that I wanted, and when I was bad, her punishment was no more books, which murdered me [Chuckles]. That would kill me. That killed me. During the summer reading programs—I'm not sure if you know, but in the libraries, they give you prizes for reading a certain amount of books.Luisa: I was always the top winner because … they knew me. I knew the librarians by name. They were my friends. I was there. I couldn't find a book, I would order it and within a week, they would have it. “Oh, your book is here.” I think you had a limit of twenty books and that would kill me because it's like [Groans]. But it was okay, too, because I'd go back to the library pretty often. It was a pretty great place. The library was amazing. So yes, Scholastic. I had a huge collection of books. My mom got a huge bookcase for me because I had so many books—so many.Luisa: My favorite genre was fantasy, of course, because at that point, it was an alternate reality where magic and anything was possible. Harry Potter. I grew up with Harry Potter. Grew up with Tolkien, grew up with Eragon, grew up with the series for the Lady Knight, grew up with the Chronicler. Grew up with all these fantasy books. I grew up with them. I still read them over and over and over again because every time you read a book, you find something that you missed and I love that. So yes, reading was my thing [Chuckles]. I love reading.

Luisa: I'm not sure if you're familiar with this but in grade school, they give you this little magazine that's for Scholastic and they let you buy all these books. So my mom would give me a budget in order for me to buy all the books that I wanted, and when I was bad, her punishment was no more books, which murdered me [Chuckles]. That would kill me. That killed me. During the summer reading programs—I'm not sure if you know, but in the libraries, they give you prizes for reading a certain amount of books.

Anita: Let's talk about that. We're talking about fourth grade?Luisa: Yes, fourth grade.Anita: Tell me about that. You loved to read, right?Luisa: I loved to read. That was my escape from reality.

Anita: Let's talk about that. We're talking about fourth grade?Luisa: Yes, fourth grade.Anita: Tell me about that. You loved to read, right?Luisa: I loved to read. That was my escape from reality.

Then I picked up reading pretty fast. I think in fourth grade was the first largest book that I read. It was the Bram Stoker's Dracula, the big one. That was the first biggest book that I read, and then I had an obsession with Roald Dahl. Roald Dahl was my thing. I loved Roald Dahl. The BFG, the Twitches, the Witches, all of it, I loved it. I loved it. I loved it. Matilda, Matilda. Oh, my God. I loved Matilda. Roald Dahl was a huge thing -- as well childrens’ books -- but I was also reading adult books at the same time. Around this time is when I started getting my obsession with the Holocaust, with all this tragedy.

Luisa: Yes. That says a lot about the education system [Chuckles]. One of my best friends is a teacher right now. It's awful.

When I moved schools, the new school that I got to was a lot higher. It was in a different area. We moved. My grandparents bought a house someplace else. It was a cheap house, but not in a good neighborhood, so the school that I had to go to was not a good school.

: In Miss S. class, I remember there were two boys who were nice to me, J___ and— what's his name? Sorry. I still know him. He's still a good friend of mine. O___. They both kind of spoke Spanish, so they kind of helped me out as well, but I wasn't allowed to speak to anyone. The teacher was not having it … She was extremely strict. I think she was the kind of teacher that should not have ever taken up teaching as a job because some people just don't have the vocation. Is that the word in English? They don't have that in them and I don't think she had it, but they helped out a lot. J___ and Osvaldo, thank you wherever you are now. I know O___ is getting married soon, so yes.

In Miss S. class, I remember there were two boys who were nice to me, J___ and— what's his name? Sorry. I still know him. He's still a good friend of mine. O___. They both kind of spoke Spanish, so they kind of helped me out as well, but I wasn't allowed to speak to anyone.

Anita: Did the kids tease you? Were they friendly to you? What was it like in Miss S. class?

Luisa: I told my mom about this and I remember vividly having a conversation with her and telling her, "Hey, you know what? This is happening at school," but I think my mom was going through so much stuff that she didn't know how to deal with it or she didn't … there wasn't enough of my mom to go around back then. I know now. I forgive her, but certain things …

Luisa: I was there for half the day, and this is something that I'm going to tell you that my teachers had told me in kindergarten. I could be sitting down underneath the table and playing around, and they would be teaching math and I could learn it. I'm an extremely fast learner—an extremely fast learner. I think I picked it up by just listening to it, and the few classes that I had, I picked it up. It was not that hard and I think at that age it's easier to absorb information, but I think it was mostly that I'm a quick learner.

Anita: Let's talk about that in one second. If you were lying face down on the magic carpet all day, how did you learn English?

I forgive her a lot for it now because I get it. It was extremely traumatizing. She had a lot of health issues and then this man who was her entire world just dumped her aside and she had to leave her whole life behind and everything she knew, all the comforts and work. She had never worked in her life [Chuckles]. I respect my mother a lot. She started going to design school for designing clothes and it’s pretty great.

Luisa: Deal with me anymore. I guess she didn't know where to put me. She didn't know what to do with me, she didn't know how to teach me, so her solution was to put me aside and not have to deal with me, so I had to pretty much be invisible for half the class. Just put my head down and not say a word. So I picked up English extremely fast because I had to [Chuckles]. I had to pick up English very, very, very fast or that was going to keep happening. I didn't want that to keep happening, so I picked it up.

Luisa: Deal with me anymore. I guess she didn't know where to put me. She didn't know what to do with me, she didn't know how to teach me, so her solution was to put me aside and not have to deal with me, so I had to pretty much be invisible for half the class. Just put my head down and not say a word. So I picked up English extremely fast because I had to [Chuckles]. I had to pick up English very, very, very fast or that was going to keep happening. I didn't want that to keep happening, so I picked it up.

So I go into first grade and I can't even understand what my teachers are saying, so it was extremely frustrating and this teacher found it extremely frustrating as well, so she would lay me down face down half the day on the magic carpet where she would read stories to everyone because she didn't want to deal with it anymore. I told my mom—

Luisa: Yes, [Chuckles] very sarcastic. Did not speak a lick of Spanish. Not one sentence. I don't think she knew how to pronounce anything, and she was as WASP [White Anglo-Saxon Protestant] as you can get. This woman would get extremely frustrated with me—extremely—and I didn't know what was going on. To me, it was a completely … [Disgusted sound] it was mind-boggling how I could go from—I knew how to read and write in Spanish. I was a pretty smart kid. I knew how to read and write in Spanish at six years old. So I go into first grade and I can't even understand what my teachers are saying, so it was extremely frustrating and this teacher found it extremely frustrating as well, so she would lay me down face down half the day on the magic carpet where she would read stories to everyone because she didn't want to deal with it anymore. I told my mom—

Luisa: Yes, [Chuckles] very sarcastic. Did not speak a lick of Spanish. Not one sentence. I don't think she knew how to pronounce anything, and she was as WASP [White Anglo-Saxon Protestant] as you can get. This woman would get extremely frustrated with me—extremely—and I didn't know what was going on. To me, it was a completely … [Disgusted sound] it was mind-boggling how I could go from—I knew how to read and write in Spanish. I was a pretty smart kid. I knew how to read and write in Spanish at six years old. So I go into first grade and I can't even understand what my teachers are saying, so it was extremely frustrating and this teacher found it extremely frustrating as well, so she would lay me down face down half the day on the magic carpet where she would read stories to everyone because she didn't want to deal with it anymore. I told my mom—

Luisa: I moved to Chicago and that's where I started going to school. I started going to school at the age of six. Unfortunately, the school that I went to did not have a bilingual program. I was stuck with Miss S. [Chuckles]. I'm never going to forget her … Miss S., lovely woman [Chuckles].

Anita: She can't pronounce them or she doesn't remember them?Luisa: She can't pronounce them. She'll talk like this [imitates] because she can't move half of her face.

Thank God for Cook County Hospital [Chuckles]. They don't charge you a thing, but she got the medical treatment that she needed. She had brain surgery. They removed the tumor and she had to be in therapy for a few years in order to gain … she couldn't talk. She didn't have movement in half of her face, so she couldn't speak because her tongue was numb on one side, so she had to have physical therapy. I went with her a couple times because I had to translate. Sometimes they didn't have people who would translate for my mother. At this point, I had already learned English, but she had to practice every single day. Still to this day, there are a few words that she cannot say.

Within three to six months. It didn't take that long … immediately kind of. I think one of my uncles took it upon himself to take care of us, and since my mom

my mom at the time, we did not know she had a tumor in the back of her brain. Right where her brain stem is, she had a huge tumor there and we had no idea. Nobody knew. She doesn't remember a lot of this. I don't know if it's because of the emotional trauma or because of the tumor, but once we got to Chicago, it was evident that something was wrong with my mother and she started going to the doctor.

Jarring. It was extremely jarring. From one day to another, the move was extremely … it was jarring. One day, you have a family and you're happy, and then the next, you can't even speak the language. You can't communicate, you don't know where you're at. I felt like my whole world was tilted to the side.

Anita: Last time we spoke, you talked about how difficult it was to—Luisa: To leave my dad?Anita: ... to leave things behind.Luisa: Of course. I grew up fairly wealthy in Mexico. I had a big, big house. I had two German Shepherds that ran around everywhere. I had a playroom, my own room. I had a great childhood. I went to private school. It was amazing, so to go from that ... My dad and I were inseparable. I have extremely fond memories as a child, and I remember I didn't want to go to my own room. I would sleep on top of my father. That was my place. They had to buy a king-sized bed because I would not leave my father's side. I would lay and sleep on my dad's chest always. Always, always, always, always, always, so it was extremely difficult to leave my dad behind the most. My dad was my world back then. But my dad, my friends, school—school was great, I loved school [Chuckles]—I had to leave it all behind.

Was there any domestic abuse in your family?Luisa: With my parents? My mother, yes. She doesn't like to talk about it. The older I get, the more she opens up, but it's not something that she likes to talk about. It was never in front of us, it was behind closed doors. I thank my father. He's a piece of shit, but I thank him for at least having the thought of not wanting to traumatize us. So yes, it was behind closed doors, but the more I get out of my mom, it was a lot of emotional abuse as well, a lot. I think there was some physical abuse. My mom's never touched upon it, but that's what happened.

Luisa: We moved to Chicago with my grandparents because my grandparents were my second parents by this point. My mother is the eldest—she took care of seven of my grandparents’ children, so my grandmother really, really loves my mother. We moved to Chicago to an apartment on Green Bay on the East Side, and that's how it went.

I didn't know what was happening, of course. We arrived to ____ California. We arrived at an apartment that we were sharing with about eight other people—my grandparents, my sisters and I, my mother, my uncles, then eventually my uncle's wife. One of my uncles got the opportunity to move to Chicago—a job opportunity—so he moved. I think after my parents divorced, all of my uncles saw us as their kids, because two of the ones that really took care of us never really had kids, so they loved us and they brought us in.

My mother, she had to cross the bad way. She went through the desert, she went through the river. My sisters and I, we went through the bridge, like the regular crossing, but we used other people's papers. My middle sister, they cut her hair off completely, and I had to call her Jose

Luisa: My grandmother is an American citizen, and she's lived in the US on and off for about 50 years. My grandmother's Texan at heart and never learned English, but very, very Texan [Laughs].

When they were divorcing, by the end of their marriage—I think it was the most awful marriage that I've seen—he was threatening her with taking us away and completely … you know she would never see us ever, so like a thief in the night, she grabbed my two sisters and I and she moved us to the States.

Migrating to the United States: okay. My parents had an extremely bad divorce - very, very, very bad divorce.

Anne: So I don't know if you follow what's going on in the US. There's a law, that probably won’t get passed in the Senate but just got passed in the house, that basically says that if someone like you, graduates from high school, or is on the way to graduating from high school and hasn't gotten in trouble, you can get a conditional residence—Mike: Right.Anne: And get a social security card for ten years. Ten years conditional residence. And then if you get employed in three years during that time you can get permanent legal access.Mike: Oh, okay. So that was the Trump administration when they came to an agreement, right?

Mike: I used to give my mom crap about that, because I was like, "Why couldn't you just start your life right here? What's so wrong about this? That you put us through all this stuff that we have nothing over there?" And then I realized when I came over here—I actually cried, because I'm like, "Damn, she did all that for us to have a better life."Mike: And it hit me in the face. I was like, "Damn, my mom went through a lot of sacrifices and it sucks." I was embarrassed because I'm like, "Damn, I didn't do anything. I didn't do anything with the blessings that I got." I felt bad. But in a way I feel like everything is for a reason.

Mike: I feel like it has a lot to do with you realizing that it's not like people say, because in America you're taught to believe if you really want something you could achieve it. And when you realize that that doesn't apply to you, that's what I feel like that's the big spiral down that you go to.

Mike: But I believe that if you're really, really dedicated, anything is possible, and I feel like that country made me realize it. That hope. That even though I'm here, if I made it out there I could make it out here. And I just love America. There's nowhere else that's the same as that spot. It taught me a lot of things and I feel like both of them are like my mother countries. They're just like my stepmother. But I love both countries to death.

Mike: I feel like I'm a Mexican American. You learn to love your country when you're young, because of your parents and your culture, but at the same time you see all these opportunities that are given to you by going to the United States. And a lot of things that people say in the United States is bullshit.

Mike: I feel like I'm a Mexican American. You learn to love your country when you're young, because of your parents and your culture, but at the same time you see all these opportunities that are given to you by going to the United States. And a lot of things that people say in the United States is bullshit.

Mike: Yeah. I still don't know because I don't even know what road to take. There's so many, but I just want to help. Like I said, I want to be the person that I never had growing up. I don't know what that is though still, or whatever it is.

Mike: It's funny as I used to always have a dream of me actually speaking. You know how Martin Luther King did? And this is crazy because I always had this dream every night where I'd be speaking just like him and I'd have crowds just like him. I still feel like I'm going to change society in a positive way.Mike: I don't know why. I'm just the type of person that I care about everybody. I see the bigger picture, because I used to be selfish and only for myself, but I got my eyes open. I just want to be a help. I want to be the person that I wish I had growing up. That's what I want to do. Whatever it is.

Mike: My kids. My kids. That's the one thing that I just—I don't even need anything. It's just my kids.

Anne: Yeah. Are you in contact with your mother—Mike: Oh yeah.Anne: And your siblings?Mike: Oh yeah. Every day. They're really good. My sister's going to get married pretty soon. My brother just opened a company. This little LLC for solar. And then my other brother just got a house. But yeah, everybody's doing good.Anne: Are they permanent residents or not?Mike: My younger brothers are not from there, but my two sisters are.Mike: My stepdad is not.

Mike: No, no. Those papers that I have right now, I'm going to go ahead and try to see if I could apply back, because they'd never fired me from Teletech, I quit myself. And I was doing really good. I was actually doing the dish program, and I was going to become a technician, but since all that stuff happened and I had to move.Mike: Because this is the reason that I moved, my dad was telling me that rent was one thing, but he was just telling the landlord that he knew to charge me extra. He was telling me it was 3,500, but the landlord was keeping 2,500 and giving him 1,000 of it. And I had found out, because the own landlord lady told me, and I had to move and I had to lose my job.

Mike: And that's when I knew I was like, "Damn, I got to watch out for this guy." You know what I mean? Because they love you, that's your family, but they feel like you got it—because you're from there, or you came from there, or your family's going to support you. So he'd always try to get as much as he could. That's why I felt like I got to kind of stay away from him. Those are the people you've got to love, but keep your distance from.

Mike: I remember this is the first time that he played me too and I was like, "Oh I got to watch out for this guy." So they charged me 200 pesos to do a whole bag of laundry, right? Well I hadn't remembered that when I first moved in, I had a smaller bag of laundry and my dad gave me the receipt and it was like 600 pesos, right?Mike: A couple of months later I had gone to the laundry place and I had an even bigger bag, because I had bought more clothes. So I know I had more clothes than before. So they gave me the receipt, and it's written 200 pesos. I told my dad, "Dad, remember the last time you told me that it was this," he started laughing like in my face, like, "Oh, what are you talking about?"

Mike: Yeah. Teletech. I had to quit though because I was moving. I didn't have enough money, because I feel like over here when people know that you're not from here—or that you're from over there—they take advantage. And I feel like my dad kind of took advantage of me. He basically said that things were one price, but they were totally different.Anne: Your dad? The one who kidnapped you?Mike: Yeah.

It’s the hardest at night—just knowing that you used to sleep everyday with them in your bed. And just when you're alone in that bed, just thinking about everything, that's when it really hits you

. It just like bop right in the face. But other than that, Mexico has been good to me. I’ve gotten blessed with that job.

Mike: I can't say it's been bad, but it's really hard to try to adjust to everything. My kids are the thing that really hits me. It’s the hardest at night—just knowing that you used to sleep everyday with them in your bed. And just when you're alone in that bed, just thinking about everything, that's when it really hits you. It just like bop right in the face. But other than that, Mexico has been good to me. I’ve gotten blessed with that job.

Mike: I could've gone and fought the case and did all that stuff, but I was like, "No dude. Don't do it. Because if you lose, you're really not going to be able to come back and then that's going to be something that your kids are going to have to pay for." So I was like, "Nah, man." I just left. I'm just trying to do the right thing right now. Sometimes—

Mike: I could go apply anytime I want, but just because of that, I feel like that's going to have some issues. It's going to bring some issues up. But they didn't say, "Oh, you have to wait this long to do it." No, because I did the voluntary departure.

Mike: That was it. I still got the paper. I got all my voluntary departure, everything.

. Little did I know in the next two days somebody came to pick me up from ICE, so I had to go with them. They placed me there for a couple of days, more. Two or three days more. I stayed in the ICE facility for two or three days and then they let me out and then that's when I had to go to court. Keep going to court. Keep going to court until finally I couldn't stall it anymore.

Mike: I had it in my ear when I was coming out of the—there was a hotel and the casino and in the middle they joined and in that middle part there is security. So I was walking out going to the casino and they seen it in my ear and they're like, "What is that?" And I was like, "Aw damn, I'm done." I knew it so I was like, "Dude, I'm done."Mike: They took me downstairs, checked me, and then they let me go. But then they told me that I had a court date. Little did I know in the next two days somebody came to pick me up from ICE, so I had to go with them. They placed me there for a couple of days, more. Two or three days more. I stayed in the ICE facility for two or three days and then they let me out and then that's when I had to go to court. Keep going to court. Keep going to court until finally I couldn't stall it anymore.Mike: So they were like, "Dude, you got to do something. You either going to jail or to fight it, the case. But you're going to jail. You've got to be in jail and you can't be out while you're fighting this case, or you do a voluntary departure and you go." At that time I felt like I wasn't any good to anybody. I didn’t want to be a burden on my family." So I just left. This is just something that I felt like I had to do. I knew if I ran away, I was never going to be able to provide for my kids, because I was always going to have to try to find a way to provide for myself. And I didn't want that for them. So I just did a voluntary departure. I just said, "Screw it."

Anne: What is a blunt?Mike: It's basically a wrap. A brown wrap that you put the marijuana in. It's just like a cigar. Have you seen this Cuban cigar? That's what it is. All they do is they cut it in the middle and they put weed inside. That's what a blunt is.

And that's the day I got caught up with the blunt in my ear and the security caught me. From there on, I had to go to court fighting the cases and then basically I just like—

Mike: Yeah. I had to. That's the only thing that I could do. And I remembered to try to be good with the mother of my kids, I went after she invited me to go with one of her friends because they had a hotel in a resort casino. And I remember that I just wanted to please her. I wanted to make her happy.

because sometimes there wouldn't be people that wanted tattoos, or there wouldn't be people that wanted a haircut.

Mike: Remember I told you that I had lost my papers and that's when my son was you know? I had lost my jobs and stuff. So it was really hard sometimes to provide for my kids, because sometimes there wouldn't be people that wanted tattoos, or there wouldn't be people that wanted a haircut.

Mike: Yeah, I still feel like I am. Sometimes it just hits you. Sometimes you're just alone in that bed and then everything just comes at you all at one time, and it sucks. But I tried to fight it as best as I can, because I know out of all these bad things that I'm going through, something's got to change.

Mike: Yeah. And it takes a long time the process for immigration. So I had some time there, actually I was like a year and a half, where I was doing everything legal. Doing my taxes, getting my taxes back, just doing everything that normal US citizens got to do. And then just one day I got that letter in the mail and I just had to give it all up.Mike: I remember we had to go in this office, we gave everything back and then they told us like, "Basically don't get in trouble, because that's your ass" [Chuckle]. I was just stunned. I'm like, "How could people do you like..." You know what I mean? Especially me growing up, I wanted to be something in my community. I wanted to change for the better. I felt like I could have contributed to my community, not only to my community, but basically just become something that people look up to or follow. But it didn't work out like it does.

And at that time, that's when I was getting my work permit. I got my social. That was all at that time. So I was able to provide for my kids. I was able to provide for the mother of my kids.

Mike: No, no, no. I got us an apartment. I was working, I had gotten a car and the thing was crazy because everything started working out all by itself. I feel like it was blessing, after blessing, after blessing. And at that time, that's when I was getting my work permit. I got my social. That was all at that time. So I was able to provide for my kids. I was able to provide for the mother of my kids.Anne: You have more than one kid?