do we ever define what this means?

I appreciate this awareness. Connects to Bell et al, too.

this reminds me of our video game readings particularly Stevens et al "in game, in room, in world"

and how might the cultural practices of the same diasporic community in different locations differ based on the context they find themselves in? For example, Irish Catholics in Boston v. Irish Catholics New York? etc

aha

I'm curious what impact this has on identity. Did they do any research on that?

I'm also thinking about the diversity of the community on campus I work with and our value of pluralism. What do we do when certain practices within the CoP differ but pluralism is really important to achieve? Could we analyze that using this framework?

how do they measure this?

I haven't read all the way through yet but I wonder if this will touch on how this plays out in school settings (even though it seems like the focus of this particular article will be on outside the classroom learning). I imagine that privilege and marginalization come up a lot in school settings and that privileged students have far more learning opportunities outside the classroom than marginalized students. How does that play out?

I guess we'll see!

nice that our observation this week was transit. Did you learn anything new that you're excited to incorporate in your final report? I wonder if reading other people's observations might be interesting research for your project going forward (in addition to your own observations of course). Good work! Excited to see where this goes!

where are you finding this?

is this ok for the assignment? Are there enough connections that you can draw between these two concepts so that your final paper and presentation will be cohesive and thorough?

interesting.

As opposed to what I (and probably many others) think of as a very isolated, individualized experience. Sure, I've seen people playing video games together (mostly in competition with one another) but I guess this is not the most prominent image that comes to mind.

so what impact does this have on identity, community involvement, learning? so many questions....

I would love to know the answer to that. As someone who grew up not being allowed to play video games (and in turn, I think they're a huge waste of time), I would love to explore this possibility. More over, how do we decide what types of "out of classroom" learning are legitimate? Who decides this? Why is a trip considered immersive and important but a video game seen as a waste of time or not a valuable learning experience?

I have a lot of questions about online identity v. in person identity and how that shapes communities, individuals, etc

like when you're 12 and want braces because all of your friends have them despite having braces being a terrible experience ;)

in all seriousness, if you can't voluntarily participate in what is perceived as a significant communal experience, how do you legitimately participate?

possibly limiting for some participants who can't afford or don't have permission from parents to pay.

are these types of settings similar to playing with Barbies and other dolls?

is it meaningful socializing if they never connect in person? can the relationships ever truly deepen?

until what age is play considered a legitimate type of learning? forever?

does this change the nature of relationships?

how does this shape identity? If your online personality is different than your in-person personality, how does that change your behavior, how you relate to others, etc?

perhaps it would be worth it to explain to children that adults meeting strangers online is a little different than children given that adults are theoretically able to consent in different ways. I'm thinking about the problem of "stranger danger" online in the same way we think about it in person...

but shouldn't a parent be entitled to "listen in" on their child even if the child disagrees?

In contrast to a private journal passed between two friends at school (I totally did this) -- this option of secret/private communication isn't available to general public audience in the same way an online journal is. It's easier to keep private from parents, too probably. I feel like anyone posting online should know that it can be accessed by anyone so how private can it possibly be?

I'm reminded of the "Auschwitz Selfie" controversy. Are there limits to posing as a legitimate way to interact with statues, cultural artifacts, art? Is it legitimate/appropriate to pose and take a self portrait in front of any type of cultural artifacts especially if we believe it leads to meaning making? Is that more valuable than the potential to offend other visitors or invested participants? Who decides?

cool suggestion

seems like learning to count is much less subjective than learning to interpret art...

explanation of meaning making as it occurs through posing

the posing alone doesn't seem to be enough to make meaning; the comparisons made through posing lead to interpretation and meaning making

and therefore understanding? meaning making?

what happens in the process of the physical act of posing that leads to meaning making?

again I'm prompted to raise the question about tourism and authenticity even though this isn't the question we're supposed to be pondering...reminds me of Nespor's piece

seems like there could be something here about bodies and learning

I'm curious to look into this issue of commitment more. What external and internal factors contribute to some people committing to this more than others?

seems like the goals are different from the first case study. here the focus is learning towards excellent performance as opposed to learning for learning's sake or to teach communal values or to keep young people "off the street."

tried to highlight "Now, youth were drawn to dance...and identity for themselves." (71-72) but hypothesis doesn't want to let me.

Seems like participants are using dance to learn about their individual identities as well as to find their place within the larger group/CoP.

shared history, values, practice come together in the movement of dance and possibly create opportunities for learning. through learning dances, children in these ethnic groups learn about their cultural history and the values of their communities.

immersion...this might have something to do with the question we're trying to answer about the relationship between bodies and learning.

again, involvement in the arts is a way to keep busy so as to stay out of trouble but not necessarily a longterm solution to solving a societal problem

seems like movement is described here as a coping mechanism, a way to get by but not a way to accomplish an actual goal.

really interesting. excited to hear more!

what do you mean by this and how do you know?

is intent participation the concept you're thinking about here? maybe be a little more explicit in the beginning in defining the concept (or how you interpret it) and then explain how you're analyzing it or thinking about it in the context of your site.

so true. and they hate when you order "small, large or medium" instead of "tall, grande, venti" etc must be tough on newcomers who really have never seen a starbucks before (tourists from other countries)

might be interesting to speak to some of these to see who they are. tourists? students who don't look like students? etc

cool!

when is it the responsibility of the participant to have and employ strategies to move from peripheral to central? and when is it the responsibility of a more central participant or and oldtimer to recognize that someone is being marginalized and try to make resources more available to them so that they may become a more central part of the CoP?

this is certainly an outcome we strive for in my office's work with student leaders on campus

bit of a departure from Wenger.

I feel like we focus a lot on identity development (in practice) and less so on the maintenance of identity. Curious to know what research is out there on this.

this helps me think about my own work with college students. their level of participation varies from year to year, their identities shift, both as a result of how they see themselves and also how others position them and influence their behavior.

is it possible for an individual to see her/himself as a full participant but to be truly marginal? who decides? other members of the CoP?

making connections between lived experiences and representations of activity reminds me of field trips and skate parks but I feel like the countermapping allows the youth to participate in a more legitimate way in public spaces.

I'd be interested to explore this further - what type of identity formation is going on here? how do the participants see themselves as a result of this experience?

the ride gave newcomers access to a CoP they did not previously have access to.

the participants, much like skaters at a skatepark, learn by doing much more than from being told how to do something.

learning by participation

hasn't this article been focused on schools in suburban communities? I think there's a difference between city schools and suburban schools and their respective access to real public spaces. maybe I'm misunderstanding the true definition of a public space, but it seems like New York city students have plenty of access to true public spaces; whether they can legitimately participate in them might be a question but I think their participation is even more limited in suburban settings where visits to public spaces are so heavily mediated and choreographed.

is a "genuine tourist attraction" inauthentic? what do children gain by visiting a fake public space?

sidenote: can we talk about tourism as a legitimate form of learning and/or participation?

does this help form islands of expertise amongst some students?

The "public spaces" visited by students on field trips seem a bit different from public spaces like a skate park because students are not only told how to move through the spaces but they are not given a choice about which spaces to visit. Students may have elected to visit other public spaces but they are taken on field trips to public spaces selected by a teacher or other administrator whereas people elect to go to skate parks.

Do NYC parks not count as "truly, open public spaces?"

even before public spaces were destroyed by urban renewal, weren't there other concerns with allowing children to loiter in public spaces unaccompanied? safety?

Seems like Nespor sees producing space as repeated performance

Can we compare to "arena v. setting" as in the Ma/Munter piece?

how is this similar to/different from a figured world?

learning and teaching by doing/participating.

when is learning separate from participation in the CoP? Why would it be?

saw examples of all of these (except discipline) in my own observation

learning opportunities through positioning

Zack was limited in his ability to access the space or gain acceptance into the CoP and eventually left since his behavior didn't align with the values/goals of the CoP.

Here we see an instance where the oldtimers' perceived the design intention of the space to be in conflict with a newcomer's perception of what the space could/should be used for (I'm calling Zack a newcomer because he is described as a "novice skater"). But how would Zack know it isn't supposed to be used that way? What resources does he have to tell him that? How are newcomers acclimated to the space, given access, granted legitimate participation? Poor Zack :(

Following up on my initial comment about Laura explicitly naming that she is learning...None of the male skaters studied (or named in this article) explicitly acknowledge that what they're doing is engaging in a process of learning and teaching, even though all of them are. I would be interested to see if there is a connection to gender here.

interesting to me that this skater (Laura) explicitly states that she likes to use the mini ramp as a place for learning.

editing space, emergence of learning opportunities.

clarifying definition of learning and framing opportunities to learn as access to participation. "Opportunities to make contributions to the shared goals of the community" helps me better understand these concepts and ideas.

does this mean that skatepark skating is inauthentic or less credible/authentic than skating on the street? what if a skater has only ever skated in a skatepark? what are the differences in opportunities for learning in a skatepark versus on the street?

expanding on the difference between arena and setting. helpful.

wondering if skateparks are arenas or settings?

I feel like the word "colonize" has a negative connotation in most contexts and think it's interesting to think about when talking about skaters and how the public views them. Skaters tried (still try?) to use public spaces to practice skating but are redirected to skate parks or other arenas made just for skating to keep them "off the street" so to speak (not allowed to colonize spaces outside of these parks). There are a lot of stereotypes associated with skaters, many of them negative, but I think they'd hate to be seen as colonizers.

do we consider little league a #communityofpractice?

related to identity. each player is coming to the team with not only differences but also multiple identities (student, brother, religious affiliation, etc). what impact do those identities have on their identity as a little league baseball player?

even though they didn't express a desire or expectation to become professional baseball players as adults (p.119)

I'm having some trouble deciding whether little league is a community of practice or a figured world, especially with regard to how identity is shaped. If we say that within a figured world, individuals have agency to identify themselves in a certain way and they can also be positioned in particular ways by other participants, it seems like this team is a figured world. At the same time, it seems like access is necessary to be part of little league which is a condition of a community of practice.

more evidence of valuable skills learned as result of "everyday activities"

Given this, did you notice that a lot of people still ignore the blurb?

Interesting observation. I imagine that specific interest also plays a role here -- if one is not particularly interested in American and/or modern/contemporary art, it may be even more challenging to participate in the CoP or access any funds of knowledge.

Great job!

good point, I did not clarify how I knew who the security guards were in my fieldwork report.

totally felt the same way!

How do we know that this is how we're supposed to behave?

Did you attempt to engage anyone in conversation when you found yourself close to someone engaged in reading the same blurb as you? If so, what was that like?

I'd like to learn more about what Azevedo means by accountability

thinking about all of the distinctions between the different types of participation.

how does this shape the child's identity?

how does this shape the child's identity?

identity

are these some of the resources perhaps?

are these possible resources? hopefully an explanation will follow and I can expand on this.

all of these help increase accessibility for the children

interest driven

I kind of wish it was a focus -- I'm interested to learn more about those differences.

the discussion about language and tone reminds me of what we read in #littleleague. The coach uses conversation to influence his players in particular ways, teach them certain skills, behaviors, attitudes, values.

as opposed to what? children touring the museum by themselves without their parents to mediate the experience? I wonder what results a study of that might reveal.

reminds me of what we consider immersive experiences -- because they're rare and intensive they are more impactful, learning is increased.

similar to Azevedo's "lines of practice?"

would be interesting to research how this happens in adult educational institutions as well, ie, a university department (academic or not) -- I'm thinking about onboarding and training new employees, teaching new employees how to interact/collaborative with students, etc. how much is instructional and how much is on-the-job? how much is "intent participation" or apprenticeship?

I imagine intent participation happens here, though, and might be effective.

thinking about apprenticeship again it seems. excited to see where this goes.

that these communities expect observation to come with some sort of intent to participate in mature activities seems crucial to knowledge acquisition and skills development and is not necessarily something that happens in every classroom setting, although as Rogoff has pointed out, it can happen.

interesting to me that we still perceive schooling in America to prepare students for the "real" world. As we've seen in many of our readings, it is vital to learn so that we can exist productively within the real world and also I feel like we have also acknowledged that conventional schooling does not necessarily prepare us for that.

Aha, this whole section speaks to American children and their lack of learning by intent participation.

Perhaps this is why American children don't spend as much time observing or learning via intent participation

what does this mean for experiential education? would Rogoff say that experiential ed is extraneous because observations are sufficient?

I wonder if this might be a generational thing. I recognize that Heath is contrasting the individual experience with someone visiting a museum with others but I'd like to focus on the individualistic interpretation. Meaning, before the internet and mass access to information, maybe this for exhibits to appeal to every single type of individual didn't exist. On the one hand, accessibility is important and on the other, what does art lose by having to be accessed by/appeal to a person with no knowledge of art and an expert at the same time? How does this relate to learning? Accessibility is a huge factor in education broadly speaking.

similar to Moll and Allen

I would argue we needs this in schools, too. Practitioners need simultaneous research in order to continue teaching effectively.

what versions of "fatigue" do we see in other learning settings (in or out of school)?

really important. This also happens to some degree in universities (course evaluations, surveys, etc) -- what about other school settings? I think this is particularly important for practitioners to keep in mind. Often we think it's outside of our role to conduct research while simultaneously teaching but sometimes it might be necessary.

using curiosity as a strategy to keep learners hooked is interesting - don't we see this outside of museum settings, too? I feel like we saw this in the Moll piece as well -- students were encouraged to pursue projects based on their own interests.

again, relevance plays a role. We aren't learning for learning's sake, necessarily

like we saw in the Moll piece -- teachers can use tact to steer students even if students have a lot of direction and independence

this is similar to our first set of readings for this class where we discussed the necessity of knowledge that relates to how we experience every day life. #connection

This reminds me a lot of the transmission of knowledge that happens with student club leaders that I work with at NYU. Previous board members will sit with new board members and download insider information to make their terms smoother right off the bat. This works nicely sometimes but other times, it backfires especially if changes need to be made. Students get stuck in "the way we've always done it" rather than thinking outside the box about how we might improve upon past successes.

I noticed today this sign also talked about increase in prices!

like what?

interesting part of NYU -- the entire campus is situated such that it's not separate from the rest of the city.

interesting that folks are so concerned with everyone around them when taking this on. Colin also noted that folks were self conscious about being humiliated in front of others or standing out for being new if they didn't execute it properly.

different from Colin's perspective (from inside Kimmel)

when I think of "communities of practice," I think of communities based on values, something more substantive than "users of revolving doors." This might be a silly question but does this actually count as a COP?

one of the other "learning by..." (as mentioned in class discussion)

This comes up a lot - the different ways in which newcomers navigate the experience of using the doors v. experienced revolving door users.

consistent with Resnick

Nice. I think Becker would hope so, too.

I would like to think that this is an outcome of most schooling. Is it?

Resnick is naming something that those of us in the field (and probably most outside of it) know happens: the disconnect between what's learned in school and what we actually do in our everyday lives outside of school. But this line, and the second-to-last sentence in this paragraph ("Schooled people do better...") resonated with me because I also very much believe in school and being formally educated. It's nice to see Resnick affirm that experience isn't everything and must be supplemented with formal schooling. I see this a lot in my work with student leaders who think that they know everything about being an effective leader or community organizer because they were the president of a student club for a year. They don't recognize that some sort of leadership or professional development in a more formal setting might really strengthen that experience and help them become more effective in future leadership roles.

I felt this a lot as a college student but thankfully don't as a graduate student. I also see this in my own students and resent the anxiety caused by the tension of needing to prep for an exam and also feeling like they need some other fulfillment be it spiritual, intellectual, values-driven, etc.

I found this interesting because in my experience facilitating immersive and/or experiential learning experiences for college students, they have a lot of say in what they learn and how they learn it. Even in the day-to-day programming at the Bronfman Center, everything is student driven. We rarely take on a program that wasn't cooked up by a student.