10,000 Matching Annotations
  1. Jun 2026
    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, the authors tried to examine whether there are differences in the association between functional traits and extinction risk in adult and tadpole stages in Chinese anurans.

      Strengths:

      Overall, I think the basic idea of the study is interesting and important. It can be applied to other taxa with complex life cycles throughout the animal kingdom.

      Original weaknesses:

      I do not think the authors achieve their aims, as the results only partially support their conclusions. The study has several drawbacks that need to be clarified or revised, including the unclear threat categories for tadpoles, model selection and model averaging, the potential problem of AIC, and the omission of other important species traits.

    2. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment

      This valuable study analyses correlations between traits of Chinese frog species and their Red List status, finding differences between adults and larvae and thus pointing to the importance of considering different life-cycle stages in this and possibly other animal groups when assessing species extinction risks. The current study is, however, incomplete because of unclear threat categories for tadpoles, the omission of other key species traits, and insufficient statistical analysis.

      Thank you very much. We have revised the manuscript according to the reviewers' comments. The parts highlighted in red in the manuscript are the revised portions.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      The manuscript shows that different traits of adults and larvae correlate with Red List status. The authors argue that this shows a big gap in the conservation of amphibians and that the traits of all life stages should be taken into account in amphibian conservation. Specifically, amphibian conservation should do more for the habitats where the larvae live.

      The manuscript is well written and easy to understand. The methods are sound.

      While the study will make an interesting contribution to conservation science, there are many things that I disagree with.

      (1) I don't think that amphibian larvae and their requirements are a "blind spot" as the title suggests. When reading the manuscript, I didn't learn how conservation practice should change in response to the results.

      Thank you very much for your suggestions. The description of the 'blind spot' was inappropriate, and we have revised it. Investigating the relationship between life history traits and threat status can help us understand which species are more vulnerable to extinction. Furthermore, we can predict the potential threat severity of species that have not yet been assessed. Because we still lack knowledge about the biodiversity of many taxonomic groups. For example, as of early 2024, over 34% of Chinese anuran species have been described in the last ten years, and 100 - 200 new species are still being discovered globally each year. Under these circumstances, given the current investment in biodiversity conservation, it is nearly impossible to assess the threat status of every species and develop conservation strategies. Therefore, predicting the threat status of species is very important for biodiversity conservation, as it will provide support for the subsequent formulation of specific conservation policies. Among the already described animals species, most have complex life history cycles. Moreover, species face threats not only at the adult stage; those with certain traits at other life stages may also be vulnerable to threats. For example, our study takes amphibians as an example and shows that groups with larger body sizes at the tadpole stage may face more serious threats.

      (2) I wonder whether the relationship between species traits and extinction risk is of great importance for conservation. If a species is Data Deficient on the IUCN Red List, then species traits could be used to predict its Red List category. However, for other conservation projects, I don't see how this would work. How would traits be linked to captive breeding, conservation translocation, pond construction or habitat management in general? In some cases, I can envision a link between species traits and pond hydroperiod.

      Thank you very much for your suggestions. Understanding the relationship between traits and threat status is of great importance for the conservation policies and the allocation of conservation resources, especially when conservation resources are insufficient. As mentioned earlier, the current conservation resources are insufficient to support us in surveying and assessing every Data Deficient (DD) species, not to mention the large number of new species being discovered each year. By predicting threat status, we can identify which groups or species should be prioritized for research, such as population size and distribution range surveys, so that specific conservation strategies can subsequently be developed.

      (3) Species traits are body size and morphological traits. That makes sense. However, one of the species traits was microhabitat. I find it far-fetched to call habitat a species trait. This is standard habitat ecology. It is well known that habitats matter and that different habitat types face different threats, and consequently, the species that live in those habitats. Furthermore, habitat and morphology may be confounded. For example, tadpoles in lentic and lotic habitats have very different morphologies. So is it habitat or morphology?

      Thank you very much for your suggestions. The type of habitat in which a species lives affects the threats it faces. In many studies on the relationship between extinction risk and traits, microhabitat or habitat type is widely used as a predictive variable. For example, in studies on Squamata, whether a species is distributed on islands or peninsulas has also been included as a trait. Following your suggestion, we have revised the sentences to refer to 'morphological traits and microhabitat information'. Many morphological traits of species are related to habitat selection, but not all traits associated with habitat selection have been measured or have sufficient data. Therefore, it is necessary to include microhabitat type as an independent variable. Additionally, we calculated the Variance Inflation Factor (VIF) prior to the regression analysis to ensure that the analysis was not affected by multicollinearity.

      (4) I don't know how the threat status of Chinese amphibians is determined. IUCN has multiple reasons why a species can be Red Listed. One reason is range size, and another reason is population decline. Personally, I don't think they should be pooled in an analysis because they are fundamentally different reasons why a species has a high extinction risk. A reduction in population size of greater than 30% in 10 years or 3 generations is not the same thing as a small distribution range. Another issue is that IUCN developed the Green Status of species. The Green Status shows that even a species which is LC on the Red List may be significantly depleted.

      Thank you very much for your valuable suggestions. The assessment method of the China Biodiversity Red List is the same as that of the IUCN Red List, both of which are based on population size and area of distribution. We fully agree with your point that analyses should be conducted according to specific threat types. Unfortunately, the full report of the latest version of the China Biodiversity Red List, released in 2023, has still not been published. Therefore, we were unable to perform the relevant analyses.

      (5) The species traits in Table 1 are mostly functional/morphological and body size related (and microhabitat). While there may be correlations between traits and Red List status, it is unknown whether this is correlation or causation. In addition, it is difficult to know the conservation interventions that may be necessary now that we know that relative head with and Red List status are correlated.

      Thank you for pointing out the important distinction between correlation and causation. Your comment is very insightful, and we have revised our manuscript to further clarify the scope and limitations of our study. The aim of our study is to identify which traits show statistical associations with extinction risk, thereby providing testable hypotheses for future research. We acknowledge that the mechanisms underlying the associations between certain morphological traits (e.g., head length, tympanum diameter) and extinction risk remain unclear, and these findings cannot yet be directly translated into well-established management measures. Nevertheless, the value of our study lies precisely in generating hypotheses about traits that warrant prioritized investigation of their causal mechanisms, as well as offering clues for the initial allocation of conservation resources. Following your suggestion, we have discussed the limitations of the study in the Discussion section of the manuscript.

      (6) In the discussion, the authors explain why body size and other traits may affect extinction risk and whether there is a causal relationship. I agree that body size may have a direct effect because larger species are harvested more frequently (it was interesting to learn that tadpoles are harvested as well). However, as macroecological studies show, smaller species often have larger populations than larger species. Abundance may matter.

      Thank you very much for your suggestion. Following your advice, we have revised the discussion section regarding body size.

      (7) I found it much harder to understand why relative head length and tympanum size correlated with Red List status. I wasn't convinced by the arguments in the discussion. Typanum size may be related to hearing and anthropogenic noise. Several studies are cited which show that frogs alter their calling behaviour in response to noise. Crucially, however, they describe changes in behaviour or properties of the advertisement call, yet none show that noise has effects on population viability. If some anthropogenic stressor affects individuals, then this does not mean that it will cause a population decline. When IUCN published the second global amphibian assessment, did they list noise as a major threat to amphibians?

      We appreciate your insightful comments and fully agree with your assessment. Indeed, the hypothesis that noise threatened anuran amphibians lacks direct evidence. While relevant studies indicate that anthropogenic noise causes auditory masking in anurans and reduces individual reproductive success, the IUCN has not listed noise as a primary threat to amphibians. Although acoustic communication is vital for amphibian reproduction and is susceptible to noise interference, there is currently no definitive evidence proving that noise extensively impacts amphibian survival. Therefore, in the revised manuscript, we retained it as a hypothesis to be tested and explicitly clarified that current evidence is limited to behavioral changes. Regarding the correlation with relative head length, we acknowledge that the underlying mechanism remains unclear; it may stem from phylogenetic signal residuals or unidentified ecological factors (such as diet or locomotor ability). In the Discussion, we revised this part as a correlation requiring further investigation.

      (8) There are statements that the tadpole stage is the most important stage: "a critical period for amphibian survival" (line 78-79). While there is high mortality in the tadpole stage, tadpole survival is rather unlikely to affect population survival. Many population models show this. See, for example, Biek et al. 2002 in Conservation Biology. Other papers have argued that the postmetamorphic juvenile stage is most important (Petrovan and Schmidt 2009 Biological Conservation).

      We greatly appreciate your comment. We agree that the original statement was overly absolute. The most critical life stage for population persistence can differ across species, and many studies have shown that other stages may be more important. Accordingly, we have revised this sentence as you suggested.

      (9) The authors repeatedly make the statement that amphibian conservation should focus more on the tadpole stage. I don't understand why this statement is made. For example, a major activity in amphibian conservation is the restoration and de novo construction of ponds (see Calhoun et al. 2014 PNAS, Moor et al. 2022 PNAS). Ponds are habitats for tadpoles. Others removed fish from amphibian breeding sites because fish prey on tadpoles (and adults; see Vredenburg 2004 PNAS). Semlitsch (2002 in Conservation Biology) argued that the management of pond hydroperiod is a critical element of amphibian recovery plans. Ponds should be temporary because this effectively removes predators that consume tadpoles. Clearly, the tadpole stage is not a neglected stage in amphibian conservation.

      Thank you for pointing this out. The literature you cited (Calhoun et al., 2014; Moor et al., 2022; Vredenburg, 2004; Semlitsch, 2002) convincingly demonstrates that the tadpole stage has received a certain degree of attention in amphibian conservation practice. Our original statement was indeed problematic. What we intended to convey is that information on the tadpole stage needs to be integrated into conservation assessment frameworks and conservation planning. For example, many studies on the relationship between functional traits and threat extent have not included tadpole-related information. Compared with our knowledge of adult amphibians, we know far less about tadpoles, and for many species, information on the tadpole stage is entirely lacking. Therefore, we call for tadpoles to receive greater attention in future research relative to the current situation.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewing Editor Comments:

      Conceptual problems:

      (1) Many conservation measures for amphibians target larvae; thus, globally, this is not a blind spot. If this is different in China, it would be important to point this out.

      We thank the reviewer for the thoughtful comment. We recognize that the tadpole stage has indeed received attention in amphibian conservation practice, and our original statement was therefore imprecise. Our intended argument was that tadpole-stage information should be integrated into conservation assessment frameworks and conservation planning. For instance, many studies examining the relationships between functional traits and threat extent have failed to include data on tadpoles. Our understanding of tadpoles remains far more limited than that of adult amphibians, and for a large number of species, no information on the tadpole stage is available. Consequently, we advocate for substantially greater research attention to tadpoles than they currently receive. We have revised the text accordingly.

      (2) While traits may be used to predict Red-List status, it is not clear how they could inform conservation measures. This should be discussed.

      Thank you for your comment. The aim of our study is to identify which traits show statistical associations with extinction risk, thereby providing testable hypotheses for future research. We acknowledge that the mechanisms underlying the associations between certain morphological traits (e.g., head length, tympanum diameter) and extinction risk remain unclear, and these findings cannot yet be directly translated into well-established management measures. Nevertheless, the value of our study lies precisely in generating hypotheses about traits that warrant prioritized investigation of their causal mechanisms, as well as offering clues for the initial allocation of conservation resources. Following your suggestion, we have discussed the limitations of the study in the conclusion section of the manuscript.

      (3) The Red-List categories may not be appropriate to link traits to extinction risk. It would be important to explain how these are defined for China and how this may affect the analysis (e.g. linking larval traits to larval extinction risks would be difficult if Red-List criteria do not consider larvae).

      Thank you very much for your suggestions. The assessment method of the China Biodiversity Red List is the same as that of the IUCN Red List, both of which are based on population size and area of distribution. The assessment process is independent of species' morphological traits. Consequently, analyzing correlations between traits and Red List categories does not constitute circular reasoning or contain any inherent logical contradiction. On the contrary, it is precisely because the two are independent that statistically significant associations between traits and extinction risk can have predictive value and inform conservation actions. In the revised manuscript, we clarified the independence of Red List assessments and rephrase any potentially misleading wording (e.g., changing "threat category of tadpoles" to "threat category of the species (assessed based on adults)").

      Methodological problems:

      (4) Choice of traits. Are morphological traits sufficient (add e.g. fecundity)? Justify the use of habitat traits (also, if additional ones would be included: geographic and altitudinal ranges, habitat specificity).

      Thank you for your suggestion. We fully agree that traits such as geographic range, elevational range, fecundity, and habitat specificity have important effects on extinction risk. The core objective of this study is to compare the stage-specific differences in the associations between extinction risk and morphological and microhabitat traits of adults versus tadpoles. Moreover, spatial traits such as geographic range are inherently highly correlated with the threat status of species, and including them might mask life-stage-specific signals. We will acknowledge this limitation in the discussion and identify the above-mentioned traits as important directions for future research.

      (5) Model choice: models have high uncertainty, thus better use model averaging and AICc instead of AIC. Overall, the statistical analysis and model selection procedure are poorly described; only summary results are presented.

      We greatly appreciate the reviewer's suggestion. Accordingly, we re-analyzed the data following your advice. In addition, the description of the methods has been supplemented.

      (6) Caveats: the data only allow for correlational analysis; causation cannot be derived from observational data. Furthermore, with a limited number of species, the number of predictors should not be too large.

      Thank you for your suggestion. Studying the relationship between traits and species threat status is important in conservation biology. Although such studies can only reveal statistical associations between traits and extinction risk rather than infer causality, they can generate hypotheses to facilitate future research. Additionally, this type of study can help predict the threat severity of unevaluated species, which is highly valuable for developing biodiversity conservation plans. In this study, 299 species were included in the analysis, and nine predictor variables (eight morphological traits plus one microhabitat type) were used. The ratio of sample size to number of variables was approximately 33:1, and variance inflation factor (VIF) tests indicated that multicollinearity was within an acceptable range (VIF < 5). Therefore, the risk of model overfitting is low. We will add this clarification in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) My first major concern is the species threat categories for tadpoles. The authors obtained the extinction risk data from the China Biodiversity Red List or IUCN. However, the assessment of threat categories, whether by the China Biodiversity Red List or IUCN, is based solely on adults. That means that the threat categories for both adults and tadpoles are the same, which can be seen in Figure 1. Since there is no specific assessment of threat categories for tadpoles, I have concerns about whether it is reasonable to relate species traits of tadpoles to the extinction risk for adults. I think it is one of the reasons why there is no study examining the association between functional traits and extinction risk in tadpole stages.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this important point, as it addresses a key prerequisite issue. The Red List assessment evaluates species, not individual life stages. The threat categories of both the IUCN and China Biodiversity Red Lists are determined based on criteria such as population size and geographic range of the species. The assessment process is independent of species' morphological traits. Consequently, analyzing correlations between traits and Red List categories does not constitute circular reasoning or contain any inherent logical contradiction. On the contrary, statistically significant associations between traits and extinction risk can have predictive value and inform conservation actions. In the revised manuscript, we will explicitly clarify the independence of Red List assessments and rephrase any potentially misleading wording (e.g., changing "threat category of tadpoles" to "threat category of the species (assessed based on adults)").

      (2) My second major concern is about the Data Analysis. The authors built and compared three types of models, i.e., PGLS_BM, PGLS_OU, and GLS_no_phylogeny. They claim that the OU-based PGLS model provided the best fit for both adult and tadpole datasets. Although the result seems reasonable, it is not clear how the OU-based PGLS model was obtained and what it exactly means. It seems to be a full model including all the predictor variables. However, since eight morphological traits and one microhabitat data of both adults and tadpoles were collected, there should be 29-1=511 candidate models. Unless the best model has an Akaike weight (wi) > 0.90 in all the OU-based PGLS models, it has substantial model selection uncertainty. If this is the case, the model average should be used, and weighted estimates of regression coefficients and unconditional standard errors that incorporate model selection uncertainty are better statistical methods (Burnham & Anderson, 2002).

      Thank you very much for your suggestion. Species' traits are related to evolutionary relationships, with more closely related species tending to be more similar. In the original manuscript, the three models we compared (PGLS_BM, PGLS_OU, GLS_no_phylogeny) were intended to select the optimal evolutionary covariance structure. Since we were more interested in the differences between adults and tadpoles, after selecting the OU structure, we actually used a single full model that included all traits to estimate the regression coefficients for each factor. Following your advice, we have added a model averaging analysis and revised the manuscript accordingly.

      (3) In addition, the Second-Order Information Criterion AICc, but not AIC, should be used for model selection. You have at least 9 variables (eight morphological traits and one microhabitat data) or 11/13 variables for the parameter estimates (Table 1). However, you have only 299 species included in the analysis (n = 299), which is relatively small compared to the number of variables (n/k << 40). Therefore, the AIC corrected for small sample size (AICc) should be used.

      We greatly appreciate the reviewer's suggestion. Accordingly, we re-analyzed the data following your advice.

      (4) Previous studies found that amphibian species with large body size, restricted geographic and elevational ranges, low fecundity or high habitat specificity are frequently predicted to have higher extinction risk (Cooper et al., 2008; Sodhi et al., 2008; Botts et al., 2013; Lips et al., 2003; Murray & Hose, 2005). The authors only included morphological traits and one microhabitat data point in the analyses. I wonder whether they can collect more trait data associated with extinction risk, such as geographic and elevational ranges, fecundity traits, or diet/habitat specificity, so as to gain more insight into the study.

      Thank you for your suggestion. We fully agree that traits such as geographic range, elevational range, fecundity, and habitat specificity have important effects on extinction risk. The object of this study is to compare the stage-specific differences in the associations between extinction risk and morphological and microhabitat traits of adults versus tadpoles. Moreover, spatial traits such as geographic range are inherently highly correlated with the threat status of species, and including them might mask life-stage-specific signals. In the Methods, we acknowledge this limitation and identify the above-mentioned traits as important directions for future research.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This study leverages publicly available datasets to confirm, validate and extend the knowledge of the transcriptional profile of beta cells that resist destruction in Type 1 diabetes. The significance of the findings is considered valuable as they could be used for engineering stem cell-derived islets and for identifying therapeutic targets to preserve beta cell survival. The strength of the evidence is solid, in that the findings are supported by a sophisticated bioinformatic analysis pipeline and are largely consistent with and extend the existing literature.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors have leveraged publicly available single-cell RNA sequencing datasets from isolated islets downloaded from the PANC-DB resource to study the transcriptional profile of insulin-producing beta and glucagon-producing alpha cells from pancreas donors with, or at-risk (islet autoantibody positive) of Type 1 diabetes and donors without diabetes. Their rationale is that any remaining beta cells in these donors with T1D have resisted the autoimmune attack and can therefore provide insights into the transcriptional pathways that mediate this protection. They have developed robust bioinformatic pipelines to address this hypothesis. Their analyses identify beta (and alpha) cells clustered by their differential transcriptional profiles and gene regulatory networks (GRNs), which are present in varying proportions in individuals with and without T1D. The Differentially expressed genes (DEGs) identified align with previously reported datasets. The use of the SCENIC tool, a pipeline for GRN inference using transcriptomic data, involves scoring transcription factor (TF) activity with a rank-based approach, which is considered robust to technical artefacts and adds a novel perspective to this study. Through GRN analysis and regulon score generation, the authors identify a specific cluster of beta cells, cluster 3 (C3), that is enriched in individuals with T1D. This cluster was also slightly enriched in individuals without diabetes (ND) who were > 35 years of age. Their data aligns, supports and extends upon many earlier studies identifying key protective genes, e.g. CD274 (PD-L1) and HLA-E. Together, this provides insights into the transcriptional profile of beta cells that have resisted immune-mediated destruction, which could help with the design of stem cell-derived islet therapies and guide targeted immunotherapy drug trials in the future.

      Strengths:

      This largely agrees with and extends previous studies from a range of groups using different tissue repositories. This strengthens the validity of the conclusions. The identification of key GRNs associated with preserved beta cells could also aid in the future design of cell and immunomodulatory-based therapies.

      Weaknesses:

      The regulon scores are hypothesis-generating, not proof of the mechanism by which beta cells are protected. The observation that C3 is enriched in ND >35y could indicate that it is a regulon associated with beta-cell senescence, for example. In the context of T1D, this regulon could reflect beta-cell senescence or stress, which incidentally co-occurs with survival and, as such, is not necessarily a true reflection of survival characteristics. The authors could perhaps expand upon this possibility in a revision.

      The authors have leveraged valuable datasets to generate a detailed profile of residual beta cells in Type 1 diabetes and have successfully achieved their study aims. The findings are largely consistent with and extend the existing literature, highlighting key regulatory networks, some of which are supported at both the RNA and protein level (e.g., IRF1). However, a key interpretative consideration is that GRN-derived regulon activity does not distinguish between causal and reflective biological states. In particular, it remains unclear whether these networks represent mechanisms of immune protection or instead reflect underlying beta-cell states such as stress adaptation or senescence. Clarifying this distinction will be important for understanding the functional significance of these regulatory programs and their potential therapeutic relevance.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This work identifies a novel beta cell population primarily present in the islets from individuals with Type 1 Diabetes (T1D). This population is defined by increased expression of previously described transcription factors, including IRF1, BCL6, JUNB, and CEBPD. The authors postulate that the activation of these genes in beta cells during immune infiltration could be protective against beta cell destruction. This hypothesis aligns with experiments in NOD mice identifying a protected beta cell population. Overall, this work provides a hypothesis for how some beta cell populations survive immune infiltration in T1D.

      Strengths:

      This work uses a clever analysis approach, defining regulons using SCENIC and using these to recluster the data. This approach identified a novel beta cell population enriched in islets from individuals with Type 1 Diabetes that was very stable to different clustering resolutions. The authors also took many potentially confounding technical factors into account, removing ambient RNA and doublets, and often controlling for batch effects using pseudobulk approaches.

      In addition to identifying a novel cluster in one published single-cell dataset, the authors also downloaded additional single-cell datasets that included cytokine treatment of human beta cells to validate the presence of this population in other datasets. In these datasets, the authors were able to identify a similar population of cells, labeled by similar transcription factors.

      Weaknesses:

      While the authors use a sophisticated approach to identify a novel beta cell subpopulation, more analysis needs to be done to ensure this cluster is biologically meaningful. First, the authors did not take the duration of diabetes into account in this analysis. The duration of diabetes is important because there are different levels of immune infiltration at different stages of diabetes. It would also be important to consider age at diagnosis, as the progression of disease is very different in early vs late onset populations.

      Additionally, more exploration of potential confounding factors should be done when looking at the novel population vs other populations in the dataset. This would be further strengthened by adding analysis from datasets that more directly measure transcription factor activity, like single-nucleus ATAC-seq from the different disease states.

      Finally, these data can't distinguish the response to the environment (i.e., cytokines) and protective programs. Especially given the similar program in alpha cells, the response to the environment seems likely. More analysis should be done, looking for a similar signature in other populations in the data.

    4. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors used a gene regulatory network inference-based clustering approach with existing scRNAseq data sets from cadaveric donors with T1D, auto-antibody positive, and non-diabetic donors and found a regulatory network associated with b-cell survival that is associated with increased expression of genes controlled by interferon regulatory factor 1.

      Strengths:

      Using established data sets of RNAseq previously performed, the authors identify an interesting population of surviving b-cells in T1D that express a key antiviral transcription factor (IRF1), antiviral genes such as GBPs and iFIT, and decreased expression of a limited number of genes that have been associated with the identity of b-cells.

      Selective expression in T1D and not observed in islets from control or auto-antibody positive donors.

      Expression changes, TFs identified are also identified in human islets treated with cytokines.

      The lack of changes in genes associated with ER stress or the response of endocrine cells to ER stress.

      Weaknesses:

      The authors do an excellent job of identifying characteristics of the donors/islets in the methods; however, this needs to be addressed in the Figure Legends and Results. Specifically, the length of exposure to cytokines is critical in evaluating the comparisons made in this study.

      Is it possible to evaluate sex as a variable in this analysis, and if yes, does one still observe similar changes in identity gene expression and IRF1-dependent gene expression?

      Length of disease and evidence for the C3 populations? Does one observe the C3 population in alpha cells of islets with long-standing disease or in the samples that had too few b-cells to perform the analysis? Temporally, 24 h was used for ATACseq and 48 h for cytokine treatment. These are very late exposures, suggesting that secondary and tertiary effects are being compared.

      Activation of stress response genes has been correlated with impaired cytokine signaling in islets (human and rodents), limiting the number of endocrine cells that are cytokine responsive. Was this observed in the authors' analysis?

      Recent studies have identified induction of antiviral and antibacterial genes in islets in response to short exposures to IL-1, TNF, IFN's that are consistent with the C3 expression profile observed by the authors. While this work has mostly been performed in rodent islets, it has also been observed in human islets, and may be useful in comparing additional transcripts that may contribute to the observed profiles.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This study provides an important assessment of how body size influences the occurrence of macro-organisms in urban areas across the globe. Size in most plants, but only some animal families, was positively associated with urban affinity. The data set is impressive and the strength of evidence solid.

    2. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      I have completed a thorough review of this paper, which seeks to use the large datasets of species occurrences available through GBIF to estimate variation in how large numbers of plant and animal species are associated with urbanization throughout the world, describing what they call the "species urbanness distribution" or SUD. They explore how these SUDs differ between regions and different taxonomic levels. They then calculate a measure of urban tolerance and seek to explore whether organism size predicts variation in tolerance among species and across regions.

      The study is impressive in many respects. Over the course of several papers, Callaghan and coauthors have been leaders in using "big [biodiversity] data" to create metrics of how species' occurrence data are associated with urban environments, and in describing variation in urban tolerance among taxa and regions. This work has been creative, novel, and it has pushed the boundaries of understanding how urbanization affects a wide diversity of taxa. The current paper takes this to a new level by performing analyses on over 94000 observations from >30,000 species of plants and animals, across more than 370 plant and animal taxonomic families. All of these analyses were focused on answering two main questions:<br /> (1) What is the shape of species' urban tolerance distributions within regional communities?<br /> (2) Does body size consistently correlate with species' urban tolerance across taxonomic groups and biogeographic contexts?

      Overall, I think the questions are interesting and important, the size and scope of the data and analyses are impressive, and this paper has a potentially large contribution to make in pushing forward urban macroecology specifically and urban ecology and evolution more generally.

      Despite my enthusiasm for this paper and its potential impact, there are aspects that could be improved, and I believe the paper requires major revision.

      Some of these revisions ideally involve being clearer about the methodology or arguments being made. In other cases, I think their metrics of urban tolerance are flawed and need to be rethought and recalculated, and some of the conclusions are inaccurate. I hope the authors will address these comments carefully and thoroughly. I recognize that there is no obligation for authors to make revisions. However, revising the paper along the lines of the comments made below would increase the impact of the paper and its clarity to a broad readership.

      Major Comments:

      (1) Subrealms

      Where does the concept of "subrealms" come from? No citation is given, and it could be said that this sounds like an idea straight out of Middle Earth. How do subrealms relate to known bioclimatic designations like Koppen Climate classifications, which would arguably be more appropriate? Or are subrealms more socio-ecologically oriented? From what I can tell, each subrealm lumps together climatically diverse areas. It might be better and more tractable to break things in terms of continents, as the rationale for subrealms is unclear, and it makes the analyses and results more confusing. The authors rationalized the use of subrealms to account for potential intraspecific differences in species' response to urbanization, but that is never a core part of the questions or interpretation in the paper, and averaging across subrealms also accounts for intraspecific variation. Another issue with using the subrealm approach is that the authors only included a species if it had 100 observations in a given subrealm, leading to a focus on only the most common species, which may be biased in their SUD distribution. How many more species would be included if they did their analysis at the continental or global scale, and would this change the shape of SUDs?

      (2) Methods - urban score

      The authors describe their "urban score" as being calculated as "the mean of the distribution of VIIRS values as a relative species-specific measure of a response to urban land cover."

      I don't understand how this is a "relative species-specific measure". What is it relative to? Figures S4 and S5 show the mean distribution of VIIRS for various taxa, and this mean looks to be an absolute measure. Mean VIIRS for a given species would be fine and appropriate as an "urban score", but the authors then state in the next sentence: "this urban score represents the relative ranking of that species to other species in response to urban land cover".

      That doesn't follow from the description of how this is calculated. Something is missing here. Please clarify and add an explicit equation for how the urban score is calculated because the text is unclear and confusing.

      (3) Methods - urban tolerance

      How the authors are defining and calculating tolerance is unclear, confusing, and flawed in my opinion.

      Tolerance is a common concept in ecology, evolution, and physiology, typically defined as the ability for an organism to maintain some measure of performance (e.g., fitness, growth, physiological homeostasis) in the presence versus absence of some stressor. As one example, in the herbivory literature, tolerance is often measured as the absolute or relative difference in fitness of plants that are damaged versus undamaged (e.g., https://academic.oup.com/evolut/article/62/9/2429/6853425?login=true).

      On line 309, after describing the calculation of urban scores across subrealms, they write: "Therefore, a species could be represented across multiple subrealms with differing measures of urban tolerance (Fig. S4). Importantly, this continuous metric of urban tolerance is a relative measure of a species' preference, or affinity, to urban areas: it should be interpreted only within each subrealm".

      This is problematic on several fronts. First, the authors never define what they mean by the term "tolerance". Second, they refer to urban tolerance throughout the paper, but don't describe the calculation until lines 315-319, where they write (text in [ ] is from the reviewer):

      "Within each subrealm, we further accounted for the potential of different levels of urbanization by scaling each species' urban score by subtracting the mean VIIRS of all observations in the subrealm (this value is hereafter referred to as urban tolerance). This 'urban tolerance' (Fig. S5) value can be negative - when species under-occupy urban areas [relative to the average across all species] suggesting they actively avoid them-or positive-when species over-occupy urban areas [relative to the average across all species] suggesting they prefer them (i.e., ranging from urban avoiders to urban exploiters, respectively).<br /> They are taking a relativized urban score and then subtracting the mean VIIRS of all observations across species in a subrealm. How exactly one interprets the magnitude isn't clear and they admit this metric is "not interpretative across subrealms".

      This is not a true measure of tolerance, at least not in the conventional sense of how tolerance is typically defined. The problem is that a species distribution isn't being compared to some metric of urbanness, but instead it is relative to other species' urban scores, where species may, on average, be highly urban or highly nonurban in their distribution, and this may vary from subrealm to subrealm. A measure of urban tolerance should be independent of how other species are responding, and should be interpretable across subrealms, continents, and the globe.

      I propose the authors use one of two metrics of urban tolerance:

      (i) Absolute Urban Tolerance = Mean VIIRS of species_i - Mean VIIRS of city centers<br /> Here, the mean VIIRS of city centers could be taken from the center of multiple cities throughout a subrealm, across a continent, or across the world. Here, the units are in the original VIIRS units where 0 would correspond to species being centered on the most extreme urban habitats, and the most extreme negative values would correspond to species that occupy the most non-urban habitats (i.e., no artificial light at night). In essence, this measure of tolerance would quantify how far a species' distribution is shifted relative to the most highly urbanized habitat available.

      (ii) % Urban Tolerance = (Mean VIIRS of species_i - Mean VIIRS of city centers)/MeanVIIRS of city centers * 100%<br /> This metric provides a % change in species mean VIIRS distribution relative to the most urban habitats. This value could theoretically be negative or positive, but will typically be negative, with -100% being completely non-urban, and 0% being completely urban tolerant.

      Both of these metrics can be compared across the world, as it would provide either absolute (equation 1) or relative (equation 2) metrics of urban tolerance that are comparable and easily interpretable in any region.

      In summary, the definition of tolerance should be clear, the metric should be a true measure of tolerance that is comparable across regions, and an equation should be given.

      (4) Figure 1: The figure does not stand alone. For example, what is the hypothesis for thermophily or the temperature-size rule? The authors should expand the legend slightly to make the hypotheses being illustrated clearer.

      (5) SUDs: I don't agree with the conclusion given on line 83 ("pattern was consistent across subrealms and several taxonomic levels") or in the legend of Figure 2 ("there were consistent patterns for kingdoms, classes, and orders, as shown by generally similar density histograms shapes for each of these").

      The shapes of the curves are quite different, especially for the two Kingdoms and the different classes. I agree they are relatively consistent for the different taxonomic Orders of insects.

      Comments on revised version:

      I believe their response is thorough and thoughtful. I still disagree with them on some fundamental points of their methodology. However, I would prefer to let my review and their response stand as is. This will allow engaged readers to see both sides of the arguments and judge for themselves whether they believe the revisions are sufficient and if my concerns are valid.

    3. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment

      This study provides an important assessment of how body size influences the occurrence of macro-organisms in urban areas across the globe. Size in most plants, but only some animal families, was positively associated with urban tolerance. The data set is impressive, but the evidence for broad-scale conclusions is incomplete due to methodological issues that need to be resolved.

      We have substantially revised the manuscript to resolve the methodological issues raised, including clarifying the definition, calculation, and interpretation of urban affinity (formerly named urban tolerance), and tightening the scope of our conclusions to align directly with the evidence presented.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors integrate multiple large databases to test whether body sizes were positively associated with which species tolerate urban areas. In general, many plant families showed a positive association between body size and urban tolerance, whereas a smaller, though still non-trivial, percentage of animal families showed the same pattern. Notably, the authors are careful in the interpretation of their findings and provide helpful context for the ways that this analysis can be generative in shaping new hypotheses and theory around how urbanization influences biodiversity at large. They are careful to discuss how body size is an important trait, but the absence of a relationship between body size and urban tolerance in many families suggests a variety of other traits undergird urban success.

      We appreciate this thoughtful and balanced assessment of our work and fully agree with the reviewer’s interpretation. In particular, we share the view that the heterogeneous and often weak association between body size and urban affinity across many families is an important result in its own right, underscoring that no single trait is likely to explain urban success across the tree of life. As the reviewer notes, our intention was not to present body size as a universal predictor, but rather as a widely available, integrative trait that can help reveal where general patterns do and do not emerge. We view the lack of a consistent relationship in many families as strong motivation for future work that explicitly integrates additional functional traits and ecological contexts, and we have clarified this perspective in the revised manuscript.

      Strengths:

      The authors aggregated a large dataset, but they also applied robust filters to ensure they had an adequate and representative number of detections for a given species, family, geography, etc. The authors also applied their analysis at multiple taxonomic scales (family and order), which allowed for a better interpretation of the patterns in the data and at what taxonomic scale body size might be important.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting these strengths of the study. Considerable effort went into assembling, harmonizing, and filtering these data across taxa, regions, and taxonomic resolutions, and we were deliberate in applying conservative thresholds to ensure that species-level urban affinity estimates were based on adequate and comparable sampling. We hope that, beyond the specific results presented here, the compiled dataset and analytical framework will serve as a valuable resource for future studies aiming to explore additional traits, taxa, or mechanisms underlying species’ responses to urbanization.

      Weaknesses:

      My main concern is that it is not fully clear how the measure of body size might influence the result. The authors were unable to obtain consistent measures of body size (mean, median, maximum, or sex variation). This, of course, could be very consequential as means and medians can differ quite a bit, and they certainly will differ substantially from a maximum. And of course, sex differences can be marked in multiple directions or absent altogether. The authors do note that they selected the measure that was most common in a family, but it was not clear whether species in that family that did not have that measure were removed or not. This could potentially shape the variability in the dataset and obscure true patterns. This may require additional clarity from the authors and is also a real constraint in compiling large data from disparate sources.

      We appreciate this important point and agree that heterogeneity in how body size is measured (e.g., mean vs. maximum values, sex-specific measures) is a real but unavoidable challenge when compiling organismal trait data across such a broad taxonomic scope. We would like to clarify that our analytical approach was explicitly designed to minimize the influence of this heterogeneity rather than ignore it. Specifically, for each family we retained all species for which at least one body size estimate was available, rather than removing species that lacked a particular measurement type. When multiple body size measures existed for a species, we selected the measurement type that was most commonly available within that family in order to maximize comparability among species while retaining sample size. Importantly, differences among body size measurement types (including units, measurement detail, and whether values reflected means, maxima, or sex-specific estimates) were further accounted for by (i) log-transforming all body size values and (ii) centering and scaling body size values within each measurement type, which was included as a random effect in the hierarchical models. This approach reduces the influence of systematic differences among measurement types on estimated relationships with urban affinity. We have added a sentence to the methods clarifying that species with a single measurement type were not removed from analyses:

      “Importantly, this procedure did not result in the exclusion of species lacking a particular body size measurement type; rather, all species with at least one available body size estimate were retained, with measurement heterogeneity explicitly accounted for through hierarchical modeling.”

      We agree that variation in body size definitions may still contribute residual noise and potentially obscure weak relationships, and we now emphasize this more clearly as a limitation of large-scale trait syntheses. However, because our primary inference focuses on the presence, absence, and direction of size–urban affinity relationships across families, rather than precise effect sizes, we believe our approach provides a robust and conservative test of whether body size consistently predicts urban affinity across taxa. We highlight this point in the limitations section of our manuscript:

      “One important limitation of our synthesis is the heterogeneity in how body size is measured across taxa, including differences among mean, maximum, and sex-specific estimates. While our analytical framework explicitly accounts for this variation through transformation, scaling, and hierarchical modeling with random intercepts (see Methods), residual measurement noise may still obscure weak size–urban affinity relationships. This challenge is inherent to large-scale trait syntheses that integrate data from disparate sources, and highlights the need for continued efforts to standardize trait databases and expand the availability of harmonized organismal trait data across the tree of life.”

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      I have completed a thorough review of this paper, which seeks to use the large datasets of species occurrences available through GBIF to estimate variation in how large numbers of plant and animal species are associated with urbanization throughout the world, describing what they call the "species urbanness distribution" or SUD. They explore how these SUDs differ between regions and different taxonomic levels. They then calculate a measure of urban tolerance and seek to explore whether organism size predicts variation in tolerance among species and across regions.

      The study is impressive in many respects. Over the course of several papers, Callaghan and coauthors have been leaders in using "big [biodiversity] data" to create metrics of how species' occurrence data are associated with urban environments, and in describing variation in urban tolerance among taxa and regions. This work has been creative, novel, and it has pushed the boundaries of understanding how urbanization affects a wide diversity of taxa. The current paper takes this to a new level by performing analyses on over 94000 observations from >30,000 species of plants and animals, across more than 370 plant and animal taxonomic families. All of these analyses were focused on answering two main questions:

      (1) What is the shape of species' urban tolerance distributions within regional communities?

      (2) Does body size consistently correlate with species' urban tolerance across taxonomic groups and biogeographic contexts?

      We thank the reviewer for their careful reading of the manuscript and for this generous and accurate summary of the study’s aims, scope, and contributions. We appreciate the recognition of our group’s broader body of work using large biodiversity databases to quantify species’ associations with urban environments, and we are grateful for the reviewer’s acknowledgement that this study extends those efforts to an unprecedented taxonomic and geographic scale. We agree with the reviewer’s articulation of the two core questions motivating the paper, and we have revised the manuscript to ensure that these questions are stated clearly and addressed consistently throughout.

      Overall, I think the questions are interesting and important, the size and scope of the data and analyses are impressive, and this paper has a potentially large contribution to make in pushing forward urban macroecology specifically and urban ecology and evolution more generally.

      Thanks! We see this work as an effort to move beyond species-by-species descriptions of urban responses toward a community- and distribution-level perspective, where the shape of species’ urban associations themselves becomes an object of study. By framing species’ distributions along an urbanization gradient as a collective property of regional species pools, our approach opens a complementary way of thinking about how urbanization filters biodiversity.

      Despite my enthusiasm for this paper and its potential impact, there are aspects that could be improved, and I believe the paper requires major revision.

      Some of these revisions ideally involve being clearer about the methodology or arguments being made. In other cases, I think their metrics of urban tolerance are flawed and need to be rethought and recalculated, and some of the conclusions are inaccurate. I hope the authors will address these comments carefully and thoroughly. I recognize that there is no obligation for authors to make revisions. However, revising the paper along the lines of the comments made below would increase the impact of the paper and its clarity to a broad readership.

      We appreciate the detailed comments provided and have addressed each point in turn - see detailed responses below. We took these concerns seriously and undertook a substantial revision of the manuscript. In summary, we clarified the conceptual framing of “urban tolerance” (now referred to as “urban affinity”), explicitly defined the metric and its interpretation, added equations and a step-by-step methodological roadmap, and expanded justification for our regional stratification. Where appropriate, we refined language in the Results and Discussion to ensure conclusions are tightly aligned with what the metric can and cannot support. We agree that these revisions materially improve the clarity, rigor, and interpretability of the study, and we appreciate the reviewer’s perspective on how doing so strengthens the paper’s contribution and accessibility to a broad readership.

      Major Comments:

      (1) Subrealms

      Where does the concept of "subrealms" come from? No citation is given, and it could be said that this sounds like an idea straight out of Middle Earth. How do subrealms relate to known bioclimatic designations like Koppen Climate classifications, which would arguably be more appropriate? Or are subrealms more socio-ecologically oriented? From what I can tell, each subrealm lumps together climatically diverse areas. It might be better and more tractable to break things in terms of continents, as the rationale for subrealms is unclear, and it makes the analyses and results more confusing. The authors rationalized the use of subrealms to account for potential intraspecific differences in species' response to urbanization, but that is never a core part of the questions or interpretation in the paper, and averaging across subrealms also accounts for intraspecific variation. Another issue with using the subrealm approach is that the authors only included a species if it had 100 observations in a given subrealm, leading to a focus on only the most common species, which may be biased in their SUD distribution. How many more species would be included if they did their analysis at the continental or global scale, and would this change the shape of SUDs?

      We thank the reviewer for raising this point and agree that the rationale for using subrealms required clearer explanation. Next to allowing potential intraspecific differences in urban affinity across regions, our subrealm-based approach also provides a practical way to partition global biodiversity into ecologically meaningful regional assemblages while maintaining sufficient sample sizes for analysis. Urban affinity is likely to vary geographically within species due to differences in climate, habitat availability, urban form, and evolutionary history. By calculating urban affinity within subrealms rather than globally, our approach allows species to exhibit region-specific urban affinities while ensuring that comparisons are made among species co-occurring within the same regional ecological context. We have substantially revised the Methods to explicitly define subrealms, cite their origin, and clarify why this spatial stratification is appropriate for our study:

      “Accounting for geographic context through subrealm stratification

      To account for geographic heterogeneity in both species’ distributions and the baseline levels of urbanization, we stratified our analyses by global biogeographic subrealms (N=52; Fig. S1). Subrealms represent an intermediate hierarchical level within the One Earth [82] (https://www.oneearth.org/bioregions/) bioregionalization framework, grouping the 185 terrestrial bioregions into broader units that reflect shared species pools and ecological contexts while maintaining meaningful regional structure. This scale represents a practical compromise between analyzing data at the finer bioregion level (which would result in many regions with insufficient observations for robust analysis) and broader classifications such as continents or the 14 biogeographic realms, which aggregate ecologically distinct regions and species pools. This regionalization has been widely used in macroecological and biogeographic research to contextualize species–environment relationships because subrealms capture meaningful gradients in biotic assemblages that are not accounted for by climatic classifications alone [83,84].

      This stratification allows species’ associations with urban environments to be interpreted relative to the environments available within the regions they occupy. This is important, as previous work has shown that species’ responses to urbanization are constrained by biogeographic context, because regional species pools reflect shared evolutionary, ecological, and historical filters [23]. Previous work has also shown that urban associations among species are context-dependent, and interpreting species’ responses without accounting for regional baselines conflates availability of urban environments with species’ affinity to them. This distinction is critical because identical levels of urbanization (e.g., VIIRS radiance) can have different ecological meanings across regions with different species pools and land-use histories. It avoids conflating species’ urban affinity with global differences in urban availability.”

      We chose subrealms rather than Köppen climate classifications or continental units because our objective was not to partition species by climatic similarity per se, but to evaluate species’ associations with urban environments relative to the ecological and biogeographic contexts in which they occur. Climatic classifications such as Köppen are highly effective for addressing climate–species relationships, but they do not explicitly capture differences in species pools, evolutionary history, or land-use legacies that strongly shape how species interact with urbanization. Likewise, continents often aggregate ecologically disparate regions and species pools, potentially obscuring meaningful variation in baseline urbanization and species’ realized distributions.

      Importantly, urban affinity in our framework is a relative, context-dependent metric, explicitly interpreted within regions. Identical levels of urbanization (e.g., VIIRS radiance values) can have different ecological meanings across regions with distinct species pools, land-use histories, and settlement patterns. Stratifying analyses by subrealm therefore avoids conflating species’ affinity to urban environments with global or continental differences in the availability and intensity of urban land cover. We have clarified this distinction and motivation in the revised Methods (see responses below).

      Regarding the concern that requiring ≥100 observations per species per subrealm biases analyses toward common species: we agree that this threshold focuses the analysis on well-sampled species. This choice was intentional and follows previous work showing that such cutoffs are necessary to robustly characterize species’ responses to urbanization using occurrence data. While a global or continental analysis would indeed include additional, rarer species, it would also substantially increase uncertainty and conflate species’ responses across ecologically distinct contexts. Our study is therefore best interpreted as a macroecological synthesis of common species, which are also the taxa that disproportionately structure urban communities and drive the shape of Species Urbanness Distributions (SUDs). We now clarify this scope and limitation more explicitly in the introduction:

      “Our aim is to identify broad, cross-taxonomic patterns in species’ urban affinity at a global scale, rather than to resolve the specific causal mechanisms driving urban success or failure within individual taxa or cities.”.

      As well as in the discussion:

      “Our synthesis complements taxon-specific, presence–absence trait studies by identifying broad, cross-taxonomic patterns that can motivate and contextualize more mechanistic analyses [17,23].”

      Finally, while alternative spatial stratifications are possible, the central patterns we report particularly the skewed shape of SUDs—are robust to the use of regional context rather than absolute global metrics. Exploring how SUDs change under different spatial frameworks (e.g., continents, climate zones) is an interesting avenue for future work, but we feel is beyond the scope of the present study.

      (2) Methods - urban score

      The authors describe their "urban score" as being calculated as "the mean of the distribution of VIIRS values as a relative species specific measure of a response to urban land cover."

      I don't understand how this is a "relative species-specific measure". What is it relative to? Figures S4 and S5 show the mean distribution of VIIRS for various taxa, and this mean looks to be an absolute measure. Mean VIIRS for a given species would be fine and appropriate as an "urban score", but the authors then state in the next sentence: "this urban score represents the relative ranking of that species to other species in response to urban land cover".

      We agree that the wording in the original manuscript was unclear and conflated two distinct steps in the workflow. We have now revised the Methods to clearly distinguish between (i) the urban score, which is an absolute, descriptive summary of the mean VIIRS radiance associated with a species’ occurrence locations, and (ii) urban affinity, which is the relative, region-specific metric derived from the urban score. Specifically, we rewrote the methods to have distinct steps as subheadings, as follows: (1) urban score; (2) subrealms and why; (3) urban affinity. In the revised Methods, we explicitly define the urban score:

      “an absolute descriptive summary of the urbanization levels associated with a species’ occurrence locations within a given subrealm”.

      We no longer describe the urban score itself as “relative” or as a ranking among species. Relative comparisons among species arise only in the subsequent step, where species-specific urban scores are expressed relative to the regional background level of urbanization within each subrealm to derive urban affinity.

      We refer the Reviewer to the revised version which we feel is much clearer (lines 428-479)!

      That doesn't follow from the description of how this is calculated. Something is missing here. Please clarify and add an explicit equation for how the urban score is calculated because the text is unclear and confusing.

      The previous response, where we discuss the description, hopefully clarifies this. Further, we have revised the Methods to clearly define the urban score and to include an explicit equation. In the revised manuscript, the urban score for species s is calculated as the mean VIIRS radiance across all occurrence locations of that species:

      where n<sub>s</sub>is the number of GBIF occurrence records for species s, and L<sub>i</sub> is the VIIRS nighttime lights radiance value extracted at the location of occurrence i. We also clarify in the Methods that this urban score is an absolute summary statistic of observed urbanization at species occurrence locations

      (3) Methods - urban tolerance

      How the authors are defining and calculating tolerance is unclear, confusing, and flawed in my opinion.

      Tolerance is a common concept in ecology, evolution, and physiology, typically defined as the ability for an organism to maintain some measure of performance (e.g., fitness, growth, physiological homeostasis) in the presence versus absence of some stressor. As one example, in the herbivory literature, tolerance is often measured as the absolute or relative difference in fitness of plants that are damaged versus undamaged

      (e.g., https://academic.oup.com/evolut/article/62/9/2429/6853425?login=true).

      On line 309, after describing the calculation of urban scores across subrealms, they write: "Therefore, a species could be represented across multiple subrealms with differing measures of urban tolerance (Fig. S4). Importantly, this continuous metric of urban tolerance is a relative measure of a species' preference, or affinity, to urban areas: it should be interpreted only within each subrealm". This is problematic on several fronts. First, the authors never define what they mean by the term "tolerance". Second, they refer to urban tolerance throughout the paper, but don't describe the calculation until, where they write (text in [ ] is from the reviewer): "Within each subrealm, we further accounted for the potential of different levels of urbanization by scaling each species' urban score by subtracting the mean VIIRS of all observations in the subrealm (this value is hereafter referred to as urban tolerance). This 'urban tolerance' (Fig. S5) value can be negative - when species under-occupy urban areas [relative to the average across all species] suggesting they actively avoid them-or positive-when species over-occupy urban areas [relative to the average across all species] suggesting they prefer them (i.e., ranging from urban avoiders to urban exploiters, respectively). They are taking a relativized urban score and then subtracting the mean VIIRS of all observations across species in a subrealm. How exactly one interprets the magnitude isn't clear and they admit this metric is "not interpretative across subrealms".

      This is not a true measure of tolerance, at least not in the conventional sense of how tolerance is typically defined. The problem is that a species distribution isn't being compared to some metric of urbanness, but instead it is relative to other species' urban scores, where species may, on average, be highly urban or highly nonurban in their distribution, and this may vary from subrealm to subrealm. A measure of urban tolerance should be independent of how other species are responding, and should be interpretable across subrealms, continents, and the globe.

      We thank the reviewer for this careful and important critique. We agree that the term “tolerance” is commonly used to describe the ability of an organism to maintain performance (e.g., fitness, growth, physiological homeostasis) in the presence of a stressor, and that our metric does not measure tolerance in this mechanistic or fitness-based sense. To address this directly and unambiguously, we have revised the manuscript to explicitly define the term “urban affinity” as opposed to urban tolerance. 

      In the revised Methods, we also reorganized and clarified the calculation of urban affinity, introduced explicit notation, and provided a formal equation. Specifically, we now define urban affinity for species s in subrealm r as:

      where U<sub>s,r</sub>is the mean VIIRS radiance across all occurrence locations of species s within subrealm r, and Ū<sub>r</sub>is the mean VIIRS radiance across all occurrence records of all species in that subrealm. This transformation centers species’ urban scores on the regional background level of urbanization, yielding a relative measure of spatial association with urban environments.

      We agree with the reviewer that this metric is not interpretable as an absolute measure of affinity, and we now state this explicitly. Urban affinity values are, by construction, relative measures, interpretable only within subrealms, and they quantify whether a species tends to occur in more or less urbanized environments than is typical for that region. The magnitude of the metric therefore reflects deviation from the regional baseline, not a universal or global scale of urbanization, and is not intended to be compared directly across subrealms.

      We respectfully disagree, however, that this makes the metric flawed. Rather, it reflects a deliberate analytical choice aligned with our research questions. Our goal was not to estimate absolute urban exposure or physiological performance, but to compare species’ realized spatial associations with urban environments within shared biogeographic contexts. Because baseline urbanization levels, settlement history, and species pools vary strongly across regions, a globally absolute metric would conflate species’ affinities with regional availability of urban environments. By contrast, a relative, region-centered metric allows meaningful comparisons among species that coexist within the same ecological and biogeographic setting. This approach follows a growing body of macroecological work that infers species’ environmental affinities from spatial distributions rather than direct performance measures (e.g., Callaghan et al. 2020; 2021; 2023), and we now cite these studies explicitly.

      I propose the authors use one of two metrics of urban tolerance:

      (i) Absolute Urban Tolerance = Mean VIIRS of species_i - Mean VIIRS of city centers Here, the mean VIIRS of city centers could be taken from the center of multiple cities throughout a subrealm, across a continent, or across the world. Here, the units are in the original VIIRS units where 0 would correspond to species being centered on the most extreme urban habitats, and the most extreme negative values would correspond to species that occupy the most non-urban habitats (i.e., no artificial light at night). In essence, this measure of tolerance would quantify how far a species' distribution is shifted relative to the most highly urbanized habitat available.

      (ii) % Urban Tolerance = (Mean VIIRS of species_i - Mean VIIRS of city centers)/MeanVIIRS of city centers * 100%

      This metric provides a % change in species mean VIIRS distribution relative to the most urban habitats. This value could theoretically be negative or positive, but will typically be negative, with -100% being completely non-urban, and 0% being completely urban tolerant.

      Both of these metrics can be compared across the world, as it would provide either absolute (equation 1) or relative (equation 2) metrics of urban tolerance that are comparable and easily interpretable in any region.

      In summary, the definition of tolerance should be clear, the metric should be a true measure of tolerance that is comparable across regions, and an equation should be given.

      We thank the reviewer for this thoughtful and constructive suggestion, which raises an important conceptual issue regarding how “urban tolerance” should be defined and quantified. We agree that any such metric must be clearly defined, interpretable, and accompanied by an explicit equation, and we have revised the manuscript accordingly to clarify both our definition and its intended interpretation.

      The alternative metrics proposed by the reviewer anchoring species’ distributions to city centers or to the most highly urbanized habitats represent a valid and intuitive absolute framing of urban tolerance. Indeed, a closely related approach was explored and evaluated in Callaghan et al. (2020; https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ecolind.2020.106905), where species’ occurrence-based urbanness scores derived from VIIRS night-time lights were compared against abundance-based estimates of urban tolerance using explicit urban–non-urban contrasts. That study further demonstrated that urbanness scores depend on the choice of spatial baseline (e.g., regional buffers around cities versus continental extents), and showed that different baselines capture complementary, but not identical, aspects of species–urban associations.

      In the present study, we deliberately adopt a relative, regionally contextualized metric (now referred to as urban affinity), expressing each species’ mean VIIRS association relative to the background urbanization of the biogeographic subrealm in which it occurs. This choice reflects our goal of comparing species’ relative affinities to urban environments within shared ecological and biogeographic contexts. Importantly, identical VIIRS values can correspond to very different ecological conditions across regions, and anchoring all species to city centers or global urban maxima risks conflating species’ affinities with regional differences in urban availability and infrastructure.

      We now make this distinction explicit throughout the manuscript, including by (i) defining urban affinity as a relative, occurrence-based measure of urban affinity (rather than physiological or fitness-based tolerance), (ii) providing an explicit equation for its calculation, and (iii) clarifying that these values are interpretable within, but not across, biogeographic subrealms. We view absolute, city-center–anchored metrics and relative, regionally normalized metrics as complementary approaches, each suited to different questions; the latter is most appropriate for the macroecological, comparative analyses pursued here.

      (4) Figure 1: The figure does not stand alone. For example, what is the hypothesis for thermophily or the temperature-size rule? The authors should expand the legend slightly to make the hypotheses being illustrated clearer.

      We now expanded the legend so that the figure and hypotheses presented can be understood based on just the figure and its legend; we did so by explaining the illustrated hypotheses as requested by the Reviewer. The figure legend now reads as follows:

      “Fig. 1: Conceptual framework illustrating hypothesized mechanisms linking urban affinity to interspecific body-size shifts. These include dispersal and mobility constraints under habitat fragmentation [44,45], thermophily and the temperature–size rule driven by the urban heat island effect [15,30], size-biased competition and survival [94,95], and size-biased human preferences [64]. Urban fragmentation of habitat resources can select for increased mobility (e.g., larger butterflies) or reduced mobility (e.g., larger seeds) depending on isolation severity. Elevated urban temperatures favor thermophily, which often negatively correlates with size as it affects the heat balance via thermal inertia. Similarly, these higher temperatures generally favor smaller-bodied adult ectotherms because they accelerate development and reduce time available for growth (i.e., temperature-size rule). In plants, the increased CO<sub>₂</sub> and nutrient availability associated with anthropogenic environments due to heating- and traffic-related CO2 emissions and eutrophication provides a competitive advantage to larger plant species, and human preferences too may favor larger species (e.g., tree-lined streets), whereas smaller species may be advantaged in colonizing built infrastructure.”

      (5) SUDs: I don't agree with the conclusion given on line 83 ("pattern was consistent across subrealms and several taxonomic levels") or in the legend of Figure 2 ("there were consistent patterns for kingdoms, classes, and orders, as shown by generally similar density histograms shapes for each of these").

      The shapes of the curves are quite different, especially for the two Kingdoms and the different classes. I agree they are relatively consistent for the different taxonomic Orders of insects.

      We agree that our original wording overstated the similarity of distributions across taxa and regions. We have revised the text to clarify that the consistency we refer to pertains primarily to central tendencies rather than identical distributional shapes. To address this directly, we conducted additional analyses comparing urban affinity distributions across subrealms for taxonomic groups with the largest sample sizes. These results, now presented in new Supplementary Figures (Fig. S2-S4), show that while distributional shapes vary among higher taxonomic groups, median values and overall spread are broadly similar within comparable taxonomic levels. We have updated the Results text and the Figure 2 legend accordingly to reflect this more precise interpretation. 

      “These patterns in central tendency were broadly consistent across subrealms and taxonomic levels, although distributional shapes varied among higher taxonomic groups (Fig. 2).”

      “To evaluate this more formally, we compared distributions across subrealms for groups with the largest sample sizes and found that while distributional shapes varied among higher taxa, median values and overall spread were broadly similar within comparable taxonomic levels (Fig. S2–S4).”

      Figure 2 caption: “There were consistent patterns for kingdoms, classes, and orders (B) as shown by similar central tendencies despite variation in distributional shape.”

      We refer the Reviewer to the revised manuscript and supplementary material, but show the kindom level in Fig S2.

      More broadly, our goal in introducing Species Urbanness Distributions (SUDs) is not to argue that their exact shapes are invariant, but rather to provide a generalizable framework for describing how assemblages are structured along an urbanization gradient. In this respect, SUDs are conceptually analogous to Species Abundance Distributions (SADs), where the precise functional form has long been debated, yet the framework itself has proven extremely valuable for ecology. We therefore emphasize the utility of SUDs as a descriptive and comparative tool for quantifying community-level responses to urbanization, rather than as a claim about strict uniformity in distributional shape across taxa or regions.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This paper reports on an association between body size and the occurrence of species in cities, which is quantified using an 'urban score' that can be visualized as a 'Species Urbanness

      Distribution' for particular taxa. The authors use species records from the Global Biodiversity Information Facility (GBIF) and link the occurrence data to nighttime lighting quantified using satellite data (Visible Infrared Imaging Radiometer Suite-VIIRS). They link the urban score to body size data to find 'heterogeneous relationship between body size and urban tolerance across the tree'. The results are then discussed with reference to potential mechanisms that could possibly produce the observed effects (cf. Figure 1).

      We thank the reviewer for this clear and accurate summary of the study. We agree that the primary contribution of this work lies in the scale and taxonomic breadth of the analysis, and in introducing a framework (Species Urbanness Distributions) for quantifying species’ relative affinities to urban environments using globally available data. We have revised the manuscript to further clarify the scope of inference and the distinction between descriptive macroecological patterns and mechanistic explanations.

      Strengths:

      The novelty of this study lies in the huge number of species analyzed and the comparison of results among animal taxa, rather than in a thorough analysis of what traits allow species to persist under urban conditions. Such analyses have been done using a much more thorough approach that employs presence-absence data as well as a suite of traits by other studies, for example, in (Hahs et al. 2023, Neate-Clegg et al. 2023). The dataset that the authors produced would also be very valuable if these raw data were published, both the cleaned species records as well as the body sizes. The paper could strongly add to our understanding of what species occur in cities when the open questions are addressed.

      We appreciate highlighting the novelty of the taxonomic breadth and scale of our analysis. We agree that our approach is complementary to more detailed, taxon-specific trait studies based on presence–absence data. In response, we have further emphasized this distinction in the Discussion:

      “Our synthesis complements taxon-specific, presence–absence trait studies by identifying broad, cross-taxonomic patterns that can motivate and contextualize more mechanistic analyses17,23.”

      We also agree that the cleaned occurrence data and body size information represent a valuable resource, and all data will be made available, with the exception of some body size datasets which we are not able to make available.

      Weaknesses:

      I value the approach of the authors, but I think the paper needs to be revised.

      In my view, the authors could more carefully validate their approach. Currently, any weakness or biases in the approach are quickly explained away rather than carefully explored. This concerns particularly the use of presence-only data, but also the calculation of the urban score.

      The vast majority of data in GBIF is presence-only data. This produces a strong bias in the analysis presented in the paper. For some taxa, it is likely that occurrences within the city are overrepresented, and for other taxa, the opposite is true (cf. Sweet et al. 2022). I think the authors should try to address this problem.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this important point. We fully agree that GBIF occurrence data are subject to well-known sampling biases, including uneven geographic coverage, observer effort, and taxonomic focus. These limitations are now more explicitly acknowledged in the revised manuscript. At the same time, GBIF currently represents the only global biodiversity database that allows the scope of analysis undertaken here, spanning thousands of species across multiple taxonomic groups and regions. Systematic monitoring datasets that provide presence–absence data are typically restricted to particular taxa (often vertebrates or plants) and are geographically concentrated in the Global North, which would substantially limit the taxonomic and geographic breadth of our analysis.

      Importantly, our objective was not to estimate absolute species-specific responses to urbanization, but rather to examine relative patterns of urban affinity across species and families within comparable regional contexts. To address this, we structured our analyses at the subrealm level, which aggregates observations across large spatial extents and reduces sensitivity to fine-scale sampling biases associated with individual cities or urban–rural gradients. In addition, we restricted analyses to species with ≥100 observations per subrealm to focus on well-sampled taxa and reduce the influence of extremely sparse occurrence records. While these steps cannot fully eliminate sampling biases inherent to occurrence data, they substantially mitigate their influence when examining broad comparative patterns.

      Recent work has also evaluated the performance of GBIF data in urban biodiversity contexts. For example, Sweet et al. (2022) compared GBIF-derived species richness patterns with independent state-level biodiversity databases across cities and surrounding regions, finding that GBIF provided comparable or broader coverage across taxa and spatial extents. Their analysis showed that species richness was consistently higher in the surrounding region than in the city itself, suggesting that GBIF data capture broad urban–regional biodiversity gradients rather than systematically overrepresenting urban occurrences. Although our analysis differs in design, these results support the use of GBIF as a valuable resource for examining large-scale biodiversity patterns.

      More broadly, occurrence databases such as GBIF have become widely used for analyzing species–environment relationships at macroecological scales. While they may be insufficient for estimating precise species-specific environmental tolerances, they are informative for identifying broad patterns across taxa and regions. Our goal here is therefore to identify large-scale comparative patterns in urban affinity and generate hypotheses about trait– urbanization relationships, which can subsequently be tested with more structured monitoring datasets where available.

      Another important consideration is that our analyses focus on comparative differences among species within shared taxonomic and geographic contexts, rather than absolute estimates of urban affinity. Sampling biases in occurrence databases are often structured by observer behaviour (e.g., detectability, accessibility, or taxonomic interest), meaning that species recorded by similar observer communities are likely subject to similar sampling biases. Under these conditions, relative differences among species are expected to be preserved even when absolute occurrence frequencies are biased. This logic is consistent with the widely used target-group background approach in presence-only species distribution modelling, where species recorded by similar observer groups (often within the same taxonomic group) are used to control for shared sampling bias. Previous work by Callaghan et al. (2021; https://doi.org/10.1111/gcb.15670) performed additional validation analysis comparing our distribution-based urban affinity metric with estimates derived from occupancy modelling using well-sampled European butterflies (see Fig. S5 from the Callaghan et al. 2021 paper). The strong positive relationship between these approaches suggests that the broad patterns identified here are unlikely to arise solely from sampling artifacts.

      Finally, in the revised manuscript we now include additional comparisons among well-sampled taxonomic groups (see responses to other comments throughout our response document for details), which show substantial variation in urban affinity even among taxa with extensive sampling. These results suggest that the patterns reported here are unlikely to arise solely from sampling artifacts, but instead reflect meaningful ecological variation in how species interact with urban environments.

      The authors should compare their results to studies focusing on particular taxa where extensive trait-based analyses have already been performed, i.e., plants and birds. In fact, I strongly suggest that the authors should compare their results to previous studies on the relationship between traits, including body size and occurrences along a gradient of urbanisation, to draw conclusions about the validity of the approach used in the current study, which has a number of weaknesses.

      We agree that explicitly situating our findings within the existing trait-based urban ecology literature strengthens both interpretation and validation of our approach. We had already referenced several relevant studies (e.g., Hahs et al. 2023 and others) in the Introduction and Discussion, but we recognize that these comparisons were not sufficiently explicit. We have now added text to the Discussion directly comparing our results with previous trait-based studies across taxa:

      “Our results are broadly consistent with prior taxon-specific trait-based studies (eg., Hahs et al.[17]), but also highlight that relationships between body size and urbanization vary across taxa and analytical frameworks. For example, global syntheses and regional studies have reported positive, negative, or null size–urbanization relationships depending on clade and spatial scale. A recent global analysis that compiled empirical occurrence data for multiple terrestrial faunal taxa across cities worldwide reported broadly similar body-size responses to urbanization [17]. For four of the five groups that overlap with our analysis—amphibians, bats, bees, and birds—the direction of the body-size relationship with urbanization was consistent between studies. The only exception was carabid beetles, which tended to be smaller-bodied in highly urbanized environments in that analysis, whereas we detected no significant size effect for this family. Studies on birds, for example, have found mixed results, including positive associations to urbanization in some regional assemblages [45], no global relationship in others [46] or an overall negative relationship globally [23], and negative relationships in particular clades such as raptors [40]. Such discrepancies likely arise because different studies quantify urbanization differently, focus on different spatial grains, or analyze different components of species responses (e.g., presence– absence, abundance, or occurrence distributions). Additionally, a study on multiple taxa including butterflies and moths found a positive relationship in butterfly and moth community-weighed mean body size with increases in urbanization level, similar to our findings [31]. Researchers have also found that smaller-bodied dung-associated beetles potentially benefit from urban environments, which is similar to the negative association we found between urbanization and body size in beetles [47]. Our approach complements these studies by estimating occurrence-based urban associations across thousands of taxa simultaneously, allowing comparison of how consistently body size predicts urban affinity across taxonomic groupings rather than within a single lineage. In this sense, variation among published results does not contradict our findings but instead reinforces the conclusion that body size is a context-dependent filter whose direction and strength depend on ecological setting, taxonomic scope, and the urbanization metric used.”

      These additions highlight that published relationships between body size and urbanization vary widely across taxa, spatial scales, and analytical approaches. For example, prior studies have reported positive, negative, or null size–urbanization relationships depending on clade, geographic extent, and how urbanization or occurrence is quantified. Even within birds alone, the literature spans positive regional relationships, null global relationships, and negative relationships in particular clades such as raptors. We now explicitly discuss these contrasts and clarify that such discrepancies are expected because different studies measure different components of species’ responses (e.g., presence–absence vs. abundance vs. occurrence distributions), use different spatial grains, or focus on different taxonomic subsets.

      We emphasize that our analysis is not intended to replace taxon-specific trait studies, but rather to complement them by providing a macroecological synthesis across thousands of species simultaneously. Importantly, the heterogeneity we observe among families is itself a key biological result, indicating that body size is not a universal predictor of urban affinity but instead a context-dependent filter whose direction and strength vary across ecological and phylogenetic settings. We now state this interpretation more clearly in the revised manuscript.

      They should be be more careful in coming up with post-hoc explanations of why the pattern found in this study makes sense or suggests a particular mechanism. This reviewer considers that there is no way in which the current study can disentangle the different possible mechanisms without further analyses and data, so I would suggest pointing out carefully how the mechanisms could be studied.

      We agree that our study cannot disentangle the causal mechanisms underlying species’ responses to urbanization. Our intent in discussing potential mechanisms was not to claim definitive explanations, but rather to situate our findings within existing ecological theory and to highlight plausible, non-exclusive pathways that may generate the observed patterns. To make this clearer, we have revised the Discussion to explicitly frame these interpretations as hypotheses rather than conclusions, and to emphasize that testing the underlying mechanisms will require additional data and approaches, such as targeted trait datasets, experimental manipulations, and longitudinal or within-city studies:

      “Because our synthesis is correlative and macroecological in nature, the mechanisms discussed above are best viewed as hypotheses that can be evaluated through future work combining experimental, trait-based, and longitudinal data.”.

      Additionally, we modified our overall goal to make it clear that this is not inherently a mechanistic study per se:

      “Our aim is to identify broad, cross-taxonomic patterns in species’ urban affinity at a global scale, rather than to resolve the specific causal mechanisms driving urban success or failure within individual taxa or cities.”.

      More details should be given about the methodology. The readers should be able to understand the methods without having to read a number of other papers.

      We have substantially revised and expanded the Methods section to ensure that all analytical steps can be understood directly from the manuscript without requiring consultation of prior publications. In particular, we now (i) provide a clear conceptual roadmap of the workflow at the start of the Methods, (ii) define all key metrics explicitly, including equations for both the urban score and urban affinity, and (iii) clarify the interpretation, assumptions, and limitations of each step. We also added text explaining the rationale for subrealm stratification and the intended interpretation of relative values. Together, these revisions make the methodological framework fully transparent and self-contained (see revised Methods and related responses above and below).

      References:

      Hahs, A. K., B. Fournier, M. F. Aronson, C. H. Nilon, A. Herrera-Montes, A. B. Salisbury, C. G. Threlfall, C. C. Rega-Brodsky, C. A. Lepczyk, and F. A. La Sorte. 2023. Urbanisation generates multiple trait syndromes for terrestrial animal taxa worldwide. Nature Communications 14:4751.

      Neate-Clegg, M. H. C., B. A. Tonelli, C. Youngflesh, J. X. Wu, G. A. Montgomery, Ç. H. Şekercioğlu, and M. W. Tingley. 2023. Traits shaping urban tolerance in birds differ around the world. Current Biology 33:1677-1688.

      Sweet, F. S. T., B. Apfelbeck, M. Hanusch, C. Garland Monteagudo, and W. W. Weisser. 2022. Data from public and governmental databases show that a large proportion of the regional animal species pool occur in cities in Germany. Journal of Urban Ecology 8:juac002.

      We have incorporated these (and additional new references) into our revised manuscript.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewing Editor Comments:

      As you see from the general comments above and the specific recommendations below, the reviewers are impressed by your comprehensive data set and the analytic approach. However, they ask you to clarify your measures of organism size, occurrence data (vs. presence/absence and corresponding sample-bias caveats), urbanness (lighting differences between cities and regions?), urban tolerance (measure should not be relative to other species and particular regions), and region ("subrealm" vs. more commonly used defintions of world regions such as continents). They also encourage you to compare your general results with more detailed local studies to better justify using size as the only, easily available trait.

      We thank the Editor for this clear synthesis of the key priorities for revision. We have carefully addressed each point and substantially revised the manuscript to improve clarity, methodological transparency, and interpretability. In particular:

      We clarified how body size data were compiled, harmonized, and modeled, including explicit description of how different measurement types (mean, maximum, sex-specific) were retained and statistically accounted for through scaling and hierarchical modeling. We now state these procedures explicitly in the Methods.

      We expanded the Methods and Discussion to clarify that our analyses rely on occurrence data rather than presence–absence or abundance data, and we now explicitly discuss the implications and limitations of presence-only datasets, including potential sampling biases and how these may influence inference.

      We strengthened justification for using VIIRS night-time lights as a continuous proxy for urbanization, added supporting citations, and clarified that spatial heterogeneity in lighting primarily introduces additional variance rather than systematic bias. We also explicitly describe how urbanization values were calculated and interpreted.

      We substantially revised the manuscript to clearly define urban affinity at the outset (including in the Abstract), distinguish it from physiological definitions of tolerance, and provide explicit equations and step-by-step descriptions of how both urban score and urban affinity are calculated and interpreted. We now emphasize that the metric is a relative, region-contextualized measure of occurrence-based urban affinity.

      We added full justification, citations, and methodological explanation for the use of biogeographic subrealms, clarified how they differ from continents or climate zones, and explained why this stratification is appropriate for the ecological questions addressed. We also clarified the scope of inference and limitations of this approach.

      We expanded the Discussion to explicitly compare our results with prior trait-based urban ecology studies across taxa (including birds and other groups), highlighting where results converge, diverge, and why such variation is expected across spatial scales, taxa, and analytical frameworks.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for authors):

      (1) Abstract

      (a) Please define how tolerance is being used here

      We now use affinity throughout and it is defined in various places (see responses to other comments here).

      (b) The abstract should clarify at what taxonomic scale body size is assessed. It is unclear in the abstract as to whether the reader expects intraspecific measures and interspecific, and at what resolution.

      We have revised the abstract by adding one sentence explicitly stating the scale body size was assessed:

      “We then assessed whether body size, an integrative ecological trait fundamental to space use, mobility, metabolism, and environmental sensitivity, showed consistent associations with urban affinity among species and across 371 taxonomic families. Analyses were conducted at the interspecific level and focused primarily on variation among taxonomic families (provided with this paper is an accompanying application to view results).”

      (2) Results/Discussion

      (a) The species urbanness distribution and comparison with the species abundance distribution is an interesting and conceptually useful contribution to urban ecology and underscores how urbanization functions on biodiversity at scale.

      We thank the reviewer for this positive assessment and are encouraged that they view the Species Urbanness Distribution (SUD) as a conceptually useful contribution to urban ecology. We see SUDs as a flexible framework that can be extended in several important directions, including comparisons across additional traits, cities of differing size and configuration, and temporal analyses that track how urbanness distributions shift with ongoing urban expansion or restoration. More broadly, we hope that SUDs can provide a framework to think about a macroecological understanding of how urbanization filters biodiversity.

      (b) In our Lambert et al. (2023) study that you reference, we suggest that 'exaptation' may be valuable to explore in urban areas. Although body size wasn't the trait we were considering at that time, it may be worth putting your discussion around pre-adaptation in this context.

      We agree that exaptation provides a valuable conceptual lens for interpreting species’ responses to urban environments. We have revised the Discussion to explicitly frame species’ urban success in this context:

      “Such traits “pre-adapted” to urban conditions allow for some species to not only persist but thrive in urban environments where most species cannot. Framing these patterns through the lens of exaptation may be particularly useful, as traits that evolved under non-urban selective pressures may incidentally confer advantages in urban environments without having arisen in response to urbanization per se (sensu Lambert et al.[4]). We therefore speculate that the skewed shape of SUDs may reflect the uneven distribution of exaptive traits across species pools, rather than widespread adaptive evolution to urban conditions. 

      Consistent with this interpretation, if exaptive traits that facilitate urban persistence are unevenly distributed across species pools, most species would be expected to exhibit avoidance rather than affinity of urban environments. Indeed, we found that the median urban affinity is most often below one, indicating widespread avoidance among species.”.

      (c) Given the family-scale effect, it would be helpful to discuss how often species within a family co-occur in a given geographic region, how much other traits covary with size, etc. Do we have an a priori reason to expect family to be the taxonomic resolution at which body size seems to be most varied?

      Our exploratory and preliminary analyses revealed that variation in the body size– urban affinity relationship was strongest at the family level, which prompted us to focus our main analyses at this taxonomic resolution. (But we also present results on order as well). Families represent a biologically meaningful intermediate scale in taxonomy: species within families typically share broad morphological, ecological, and life-history characteristics, yet still exhibit substantial variation in body size and ecological strategies. Indeed, body size is well known to covary with multiple traits—including dispersal ability, metabolism, and space use—making it an integrative trait that captures several ecological dimensions simultaneously within and among families. These correlated traits likely contribute to the heterogeneous responses to urbanization observed among families.

      Using the family level also provides a practical balance between biological relevance and statistical robustness. Many families contain sufficient numbers of species to allow independent model estimation while avoiding the strong data imbalance that would arise at higher taxonomic levels. In addition, family is a commonly used unit in macroecological trait analyses (e.g., Roy et al. 2009; Smith et al. 2004), and it often reflects major morphological and ecological similarities among species, as reflected in taxonomic identification frameworks.

      Regarding co-occurrence, our analytical framework already accounts for geographic context by estimating urban affinity within subrealms. This ensures that species are compared within the same regional species pools and environmental contexts, rather than across globally disparate assemblages. Consequently, family-level effects emerge from comparisons among species that co-occur within shared biogeographic settings rather than from global taxonomic aggregation.

      We have added a short clarification in the manuscript to emphasize that body size functions as an integrative trait that covaries with multiple ecological attributes, and that family-level analyses represent a balance between ecological interpretability and data availability:

      “Because body size covaries with multiple ecological traits (e.g., dispersal ability and metabolic rate), we focused on family-level analyses to capture shared ecological strategies while still allowing sufficient variation among species to detect trait– environment relationships [39]”.

      (d) The result that body size shows a stronger effect in plants perhaps could suggest that plant records in GBIF are more sensitive to potential collection bias, perhaps due to detectability differences or preferences for where botanists and citizen scientists collect plant data? You mention ornamental plants late, but it may be worth discussing this here, too.

      We agree that this is a possible mechanism, which likely conflates detectability and ecological signal. We have expanded this point in the discusssion to better address this:

      “These human-driven preferences may also influence detectability and recording effort, as larger and more conspicuous plant species are more likely to be planted, maintained, and documented in urban environments, and thus be available in GBIF for our analyses. However, we suggest that this is not purely a sampling artifact, but such processes likely interact with ecological filtering to shape the realized size structure of urban plant communities.”.

      (e) I appreciate the additional taxonomic layering to the discussion. Seeing patterns at the family and order levels is helpful for generating new theory and predictions about how urbanization structures biodiversity at different taxonomic scales.

      We agree that examining patterns across multiple taxonomic scales is particularly valuable for generating testable hypotheses about how urbanization structures biodiversity, as different mechanisms may emerge or break down depending on the resolution of analysis. We hope this multi-scale perspective helps stimulate new theory and predictions about the ecological processes shaping urban biodiversity across the tree of life.

      (3) Methods

      (a) The methodology provides a scalable, consistent, and reasonable measure of both urbanness and species-level urban tolerance. The urban tolerance measure will, of course, not be useful for certain types of research (e.g., animal behavior), but it is appropriate for the resolution of this study.

      We agree that the urban affinity metric presented here is intended for broad-scale, comparative analyses and is not designed to capture fine-scale processes such as individual behavior or short-term demographic responses. Our goal was to develop a scalable and consistent measure that enables cross-taxon and cross-region comparisons at a global extent, which we believe is appropriate for addressing the questions posed in this study. We have sought to be explicit about this scope throughout the manuscript (e.g., to better alleviate Reviewer #1 concerns) and emphasize that the framework is complementary to, rather than a replacement for, more mechanistic or organism-focused approaches.

      (b) I'm concerned that the authors were not able to constrain their dataset to mean, median, or maximum, not potentially sex variability in sizes. Later in the methods, the authors state that they selected the measure of size that was most common within a family. Does this mean that species within a given family that didn't have that measure of body size were removed from the analysis?

      We appreciate this important point and agree that heterogeneity in how body size is measured (e.g., mean, maximum, or sex-specific estimates) is a real and unavoidable challenge in large-scale trait syntheses. Our analytical approach was explicitly designed to minimize the influence of this heterogeneity while retaining as many species as possible, rather than excluding species based on inconsistent trait metadata.

      Specifically, species within a family were not removed based on the availability of a particular body size definition. All species with at least one body size estimate were retained. When multiple measures existed for a species, we selected the measurement type that was most commonly available within each family to maximize comparability while preserving sample size. Remaining heterogeneity among measurement types (including units, measurement detail, and whether values reflected means, maxima, or sex-specific estimates) was explicitly accounted for through log-transformation and metadata-aware centering and scaling, with measurement metadata included as random intercepts in the hierarchical models. We have clarified this point in the Methods:

      “Importantly, this procedure did not result in the exclusion of species lacking a particular body size definition; rather, all species with at least one available body size estimate were retained, with measurement heterogeneity explicitly accounted for through metadata-aware scaling and hierarchical modeling.”

      In addition, our taxonomic modeling strategy was intentionally hierarchical. Species belonging to families that did not meet the minimum threshold for family-level modeling (≥10 species) were not discarded; rather, they were included in higher-level taxonomic analyses (e.g., order- or class-level models), ensuring that available information was retained wherever statistically appropriate. This approach reflects our broader goal of maximizing data inclusion while matching inference to the resolution supported by the data.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Overlap between VIIRS and GBIF data: While it would have been nice for the GBIF records and VIIRS timescales to match, the degree of mismatch isn't overly large (2010-2021 vs 2015-2021), and any bias or inaccuracies should be minimal. I am mainly making this comment as a potential counterpoint to a possible criticism from other reviewers.

      We thank the reviewer for this helpful observation and agree with their assessment. While the temporal coverage of GBIF occurrence records (2010–2021) and VIIRS night-time lights data (2015–2021) does not perfectly overlap, the mismatch is relatively small and unlikely to introduce substantial bias, particularly given our focus on broad, global patterns of urban affinity rather than fine-scale temporal dynamics. We appreciate the reviewer highlighting this point as a potential counterargument to concerns about temporal alignment.

      (2) Line 87: "only a select few species seem to possess traits that enable them to thrive in urban...".

      This seems like an odd statement, given how many of these species have positive urban tolerance measures.

      Agreed that this was oddly worded. We have revised for clarity, focusing on the magnitude of urban affinity:

      “Similarly, much like the skewed distributions observed in SADs [24,26], the skewed shape of SUDs indicates that while many species exhibit some degree of urban affinity, a relatively small subset of species attain high levels of urban affinity and dominate urban environments.”

      (3) Line 81: "skewed shape of SUDs suggests that traits enabling species to tolerate urban environments are both rare and specific".

      Again, based on the shape of some of these curves, I'm not convinced that it is rare, and there is nothing about these curves that suggests it is something "specific". Indeed, urban tolerance could be very multivariate, and the authors' own results suggest this is indeed the case.

      We have revised the sentence to retain a focus on traits while avoiding overinterpretation of adaptation from the distributional patterns alone. The revised wording emphasizes the uneven expression of high urban affinity across species without implying rarity or trait specificity:

      “The skewed shape of SUDs suggests that traits enabling species to tolerate urban environments are unevenly expressed, given that only a handful of species show extreme urban affinity values, but our results suggest this is geographically widespread across taxa.”.

      We also agree with the likelihood that it is multivariate, and return to this in the conclusion in a stronger sense:

      “Although body size emerged as a predictor of urban affinity, we found not only substantial heterogeneity across families and orders, but also that body size filtering alone is unlikely to explain the consistently skewed SUD shape. Taken together, these patterns suggest that urban affinity likely emerges from multiple trait combinations rather than a single, universally advantageous trait, and that strong affinity to urban environments is not uniformly expressed across taxa, despite occurring broadly across regions.”.

      (4) Line 100: "UHI", avoid abbreviations unless absolutely necessary.

      We have removed this abbreviation throughout.

      (5) Body size: focusing on one trait seems like a shot in the dark, and so it isn't too surprising that this didn't reveal a strong or consistent pattern. However, I also recognize that collecting consistent trait data across so many taxa is challenging, and size is a low-hanging fruit that correlates with multiple traits. Perhaps discuss more the range of traits you think are most likely to predict urban tolerance.

      Body size is indeed the ‘easiest’ to collect, but we acknowledge that there are other traits which could be important, and body size correlates with multiple traits. We revised our discussion to be more comprehensive to discuss some of the additional traits, and be explicit about the shortfalls of body size:

      “Ultimately, the heterogeneous and sometimes weak relationships between body size and urban affinity suggests that body size alone cannot explain the emergence of extreme urban exploiters and the skewed shape of SUDs. Focusing on body size as a focal trait necessarily represents a simplification of the multidimensional processes underlying species’ responses to urbanization, driven in part by data availability when conducting a taxonomically-broad synthesis. Instead, urban affinity likely depends on multivariate trait combinations [17,58] that vary among taxa [59] and ecological contexts [60]. Traits that are likely to correlate with urban affinity include dispersal capacity, behavioral flexibility, diet breadth, reproductive strategy, thermoregulatory ability, and, in plants, life history traits such as growth form, clonality, phenology, and seed size. The diversity of trait pathways through which species may persist or thrive in urban environments is consistent with the pronounced taxonomic heterogeneity we observe and helps explain why body size alone does not yield a universal pattern.”

      (6) Figure S2: This figure and analysis appear to 'come out of nowhere'. I think this is distracting and tangential, and it should be removed. I have the same thoughts about Figure S3. While I do think a discussion of other traits to measure is well warranted and needed, the inclusion of "preliminary' results that aren't motivated by clear questions, appropriate context, and rigorous analysis should be discouraged.

      We have removed Figure S2 and Figure S3 in response to this comment.

      I hope the authors find my constructive comments useful in their revision process.

      This was a very thorough and thoughtful review. We are greatly appreciative of the opportunity and guidance to improve our work!

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Here is a list of a number of further points that the authors may want to address:

      (1) Figure 1 somehow misses the fact that humans simply do not want very large animals in the city. We kill large predators if they come too close to cities, and the same for large herbivores such as wild boar or deer.

      We agree that direct human persecution and management of large-bodied species can influence which species occur in urban environments, particularly for large predators and herbivores. Such processes represent important mechanisms shaping urban species assemblages and represent an entire field of socio-ecological dynamics. We have now clarified this point in the Discussion by noting that human–wildlife conflict, management, and persecution could contribute to observed size–urbanization relationships for some taxa, and that disentangling these mechanisms represents an important direction for future research. We added some text to highlight this point):

      “Similarly, human–wildlife conflict and active management of large-bodied animals in cities may influence which species persist in urban environments, potentially constraining the upper end of the body size distribution. Taken together, these examples illustrate the importance of considering the socio-ecological context of urban species assemblages [65]”.

      (2) Line 270. So you removed all data from the grid-based survey?

      We did not remove all data originating from grid-based surveys or gridded products. Rather, we retained GBIF point-occurrence records and applied a standard spatial filtering step, removing only those individual observations with reported coordinate uncertainty greater than 1 km. This was done to ensure reliable alignment between species occurrence points and remotely sensed environmental layers. We have clarified this distinction in the Methods to avoid confusion:

      “Due to uncertainty in matching observations with remotely-sensed products, any GBIF observation with a coordinate uncertainty > 1 km was removed. This filtering step removed individual observations with high spatial uncertainty, rather than excluding entire datasets or survey types.”.

      (3) Line 278. Human population density?

      Yes, we have added ‘human’ here (and elsewhere in this section) to make this clearer to the reader.

      (4) Line 284. What is a pixel?

      We have modified the text to make this clearer:

      “VIIRS Stray Light Corrected Nighttime Day/Night Band Composites product, representing monthly composites, (i.e., this dataset in Google Earth Engine: NOAA/VIIRS/DNB/MONTHLY_V1/VCMSLCFG) with a native resolution of ~500 m<sup>2</sup>. We took the median of all monthly composites for each pixel (i.e., a single grid cell of the night-time lights raster representing a fixed ground area) to calculate a pixel-level urbanization value, measured in average radiance, and used imagery from January 2015 to January 2021 to calculate this median”.

      (5) Line 292. It seems to me that lighting is different in different types of cities with the same level of impervious surface, depending on local customs of how many lights are installed, left switched on, etc. I guess that petrol stations and strongly lit industrial areas both produce high levels of light, while for the industrial areas, there could be lawn or other vegetation?

      We thank the reviewer for this thoughtful observation and agree that night-time lighting can vary across cities with similar levels of impervious surface due to differences in land use, infrastructure, and cultural lighting practices. We do not interpret VIIRS night-time lights as a direct measure of any single urban feature, but rather as a continuous, integrative proxy for urbanization that captures the combined footprint of human activity, infrastructure intensity, and energy use. VIIRS radiance has been repeatedly shown to correlate strongly with human population density, built infrastructure, and urban extent, while being negatively correlated with vegetation cover (e.g., EVI). It is repeatedly used in remote sensing and urban sustainability literature. This approach is widely supported in the literature, for example:

      Panić et al. used night-time lights were to map spatial and temporal patterns of artificial lighting as a proxy for human population distribution and activity, distinguishing areas of urban and rural occupancy.

      (https://www.ceeol.com/search/article-detail?id=1035395)

      Zhou et al. used night-time light observations were to develop a globally consistent time series of annual urban extent, delineating urban clusters and quantifying global urban growth over decades. (https://doi.org/10.1016/j.rse.2018.10.015)

      Chakraborty & Stokes used night-time light time series with machine learning to detect and quantify urban change processes—identifying deviations from expected radiance trends to monitor diverse urban transitions.

      (https://doi.org/10.1016/j.rse.2023.113818)

      Zhao et al. reviewed night-time light remote sensing was for its broad capacity to quantify human activities and socioeconomic dynamics—such as urbanization, economic change, and environmental impacts—across scales.

      (https://doi.org/10.3390/rs11171971)

      Zheng et al. used VIIRS nightime lights across 30 global megacities to produce a classification scheme to disentangle urban land changes into five categories, and assess global urbanization processes. (https://doi.org/10.1016/j.isprsjprs.2021.01.002)

      Zhao et al. argue that nighttime lights provide a consistent dataset to model and interpret urbanization dynamics and use this to track urban dynamics in Southeast Asia. (https://doi.org/10.1016/j.rse.2020.111980)

      While localized mismatches may occur (e.g., brightly lit industrial areas with surrounding vegetation), such heterogeneity is expected to introduce additional variance rather than systematic bias in the measure of urbanization, making our inference conservative. We have clarified this interpretation and added additional supporting references in the Methods:

      “Previous work has shown that VIIRS night-time lights is negatively correlated with greenness measured through the Enhanced Vegetation Index (EVI) and positively correlated with human population density [69,71]. Although night-time light intensity can vary among cities with similar impervious surface due to differences in land use, infrastructure, and cultural lighting practices, at broad spatial scales it functions as an integrative proxy of urbanization [75,76,77,78,79,80], with localized heterogeneity contributing primarily to additional variance rather than systematic bias.”

      (6) Line 295. How did you reconcile the spatial uncertainty of >1km with an urbanization pixel of 150m2? For how many species did you have a higher uncertainty than pixel size? In my experience, your ca. 39m accuracy is a strong assumption for GBIF data.

      We would like to clarify that we do not assume species occurrence accuracy at the scale of the geohash blocks (i.e., tens of meters), and we do not interpret GBIF records as having ca. 39 m positional accuracy. The use of geohash7 (~150 m blocks) reflects a computational indexing choice, not an assumption about biological or observational precision. All GBIF observations with reported coordinate uncertainty greater than 1 km were removed prior to analysis, ensuring that retained occurrences were compatible with the effective spatial resolution of the remotely sensed urbanization data. Importantly, the effective spatial resolution of our urbanization metric remains that of the VIIRS night-time lights product (~500 m). Geohash encoding at a finer resolution was used solely to efficiently associate point occurrences with the appropriate VIIRS pixel while avoiding redundant extraction or averaging across adjacent pixels. This approach does not increase the effective spatial precision of the analysis, nor does it imply sub-pixel inference. We have clarified this in the Methods:

      “The VIIRS night-time lights data, with a native resolution of ~500 m<sup>2</sup>, was then matched to these blocks by assigning each geohash7 block the average VIIRS radiance value that intersects it. We do not assume positional accuracy at the scale of the geohash blocks, but geohash encoding was used solely for computational indexing, while the effective spatial resolution of the urbanization metric is that of the VIIRS data (~500 m). This approach allows us to avoid unnecessary redundancy in the data while maintaining the original VIIRS resolution”.

      (7) Line 296. Why this high resolution in the species data when your light data is 500m2?

      The apparent mismatch in resolution reflects a distinction between data handling resolution and analytical resolution. Species occurrence records were retained at their native point-level precision to avoid premature spatial aggregation and to ensure that each observation could be accurately matched to the appropriate VIIRS night-time lights pixel. The finer-resolution geohash encoding does not imply that species data were analyzed at that scale, nor does it increase the effective spatial resolution of the analysis. We note, however, that the reported spatial uncertainty of some GBIF records may approach or exceed the resolution of the VIIRS data. Retaining such records represents a deliberate trade-off between spatial precision and data coverage, and is necessary to maximize taxonomic and geographic representation in a global analysis of this scope. Importantly, any residual spatial uncertainty is expected to introduce additional noise rather than systematic bias, making our estimates of species–urban affinity relationships conservative.

      (8) If you could show how your results match the results of Hahs et al and others with respect to occurrence and traits, this would strengthen your approach.

      We agree that explicitly comparing our findings with prior trait-based studies strengthens the interpretability of our approach. We have now added text to the Discussion that directly compares our results with published analyses, including Hahs et al. (2023) and other taxon-specific studies. In particular, we highlight where our occurrencebased estimates recover similar body size–urbanization relationships (four of five taxa in Hahs et al.) and where they differ (e.g., carabids), and we discuss how such differences likely arise from variation in spatial grain, response variables, and definitions of urbanization. These additions clarify how our framework aligns with, complements, and extends existing trait-based work rather than replacing it.

      (9) I wonder whether you could run your analysis with simplified data. In the end, you do not talk much about how high the urban score is, so you may also aggregate values to "highly lighted", "lighted", "some light" and "dark" and re-do the analysis, after checking how these scores correlate with e.g. impervious surface in a slightly larger area than what you used (maybe 50x50m).

      Our analytical framework—and the concept of Species Urbanness Distributions (SUDs) in particular—relies on retaining the continuous nature of the underlying urbanization metric. Discretizing night-time light values would necessarily introduce arbitrary thresholds, reduce information content, and obscure subtle but ecologically meaningful variation in species’ relative affinities to urban environments. Because we focus on relative affinity patterns rather than absolute urbanization classes, maintaining a continuous metric is central to both our methodological approach and conceptual contribution. That said, we agree that exploring how continuous urban affinity scores relate to categorical urban classes or alternative urbanization proxies (e.g., impervious surface at different spatial grains) represents a valuable direction for future work. Such analyses could be particularly informative for translating continuous affinity metrics into applied conservation or urban planning contexts.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This important study investigates how the brain categorizes written words from different writing systems (e.g., alphabetic vs. non-alphabetic). The evidence supporting the authors' claims is solid and sheds light on the neural basis of language's social‑categorization function.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study demonstrates, through a series of EEG and MEG experiments, that the human brain automatically categorizes words from alphabetic and non-alphabetic languages, and it unpacks the neural mechanisms of this process from multiple angles. The work examines not only univariate repetition-suppression (RS) effects, but also how repeating or alternating languages influences the representational similarity of words within and across language categories.

      Strengths:

      The univariate RS effects across multiple experiments lend support to some of the main conclusions.

      Comments on revised version.

      The authors have made appropriate revisions and supplements in response to the issues I raised, which has largely resolved my concerns.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study investigates how the human brain categorizes visual words from distinct writing systems (alphabetic vs. non-alphabetic). Using a repetition suppression paradigm combined with electroencephalography and magnetoencephalography, the authors conducted nine experiments with independent participants to identify the neural network underlying language-based categorization, characterize its temporal dynamics, and test whether this process operates independently of linguistic properties such as semantic meaning and pronunciation.

      Strengths:

      The study employs a well-validated design with clear control conditions and systematically manipulates key variables including writing system, language familiarity, and native language background. The use of nine experiments with independent participant samples strengthens the reliability and replicability of the results. The work combines EEG and MEG, cross-validating findings across imaging modalities to support the reported neural effects. A combination of univariate, multivariate, and connectivity analyses is used to characterize neural responses and network interactions. Results are consistent across multiple language groups and for both familiar and unfamiliar languages, supporting the generalizability of the identified neural mechanism beyond specific languages or prior experience.

      Comments on revised version.

      Earlier versions of the manuscript framed these findings as more directly reflecting the social-categorization function of language. In the revised manuscript, the authors now more carefully distinguish language-based word categorization from broader claims regarding social categorization and explicitly acknowledge that the current experiments do not directly test social evaluation or intergroup processes. These revisions improve the conceptual precision of the work and address my major concern from the previous review.

      The additional methodological clarifications and supplementary analyses also strengthen the manuscript. Overall, I believe the revised version provides solid evidence for rapid language-based categorization of visual words across different writing systems.

    4. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment

      This important study investigates how the brain categorizes written words from different writing systems (e.g., alphabetic vs. non-alphabetic), shedding potential light on the neural basis of language's social‑categorization function. Overall, the evidence supporting the authors' claims is solid, though some analyses and key interpretations would benefit from fuller justification.

      Thank you for handling our manuscript! We’ve modified the manuscript according to the reviewers’ comments and suggestions.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study demonstrates, through a series of EEG and MEG experiments, that the human brain automatically categorizes words from alphabetic and non-alphabetic languages, and it unpacks the neural mechanisms of this process from multiple angles. The work examines not only univariate repetition-suppression (RS) effects, but also how repeating or alternating languages influences the representational similarity of words within and across language categories.

      Strengths:

      The univariate RS effects across multiple experiments lend support to some of the main conclusions

      Weaknesses:

      I have reservations about the logic underlying the multivariate analyses, and I believe the implications of the control experiments merit fuller discussion.

      (1) Question 1: Logic of the multivariate analyses

      The original text states:

      "The processing of intra-language similarity was quantified as correlation distances between neural responses to two words of the same language, which occurred more frequently and would be inhibited in the Rep-Cond (vs. Alt-Cond) due to habituation (Fig. 1c)...".

      I argue that this passage conflates two levels. Building a representational dissimilarity matrix (RDM) is a data-analysis step; it cannot be equated with a cognitive computation. Hence, there is no sense in which this computation occurs "more frequently" in one condition. RDM construction rests on the pairwise similarity of activity patterns, so even if a task engaged no cognitive computation of representational similarity, we could still compute an RDM. Conversely, if a task factor alters the RDM, we must explain how that factor changes the underlying neural patterns, not claim that it triggers specific cognitive processing. Therefore, I neither understand what "more frequent processing" the authors refer to, nor accept their account of the multivariate results.

      The multivariate result pattern, briefly, is that distances between words, both within and across languages, are larger under the repetition condition. One plausible interpretation is that a word representation comprises two parts: language-type (alphabetic vs. non-alphabetic) and fine-grained identity features (visual shape, orthography, semantics, phonology, etc.). Repetition of language type may, via RS, reduce the weight of the first component, thereby increasing the relative contribution of fine-grained features and amplifying inter-word differences. This could explain the multivariate findings.

      Thank you for these insightful comments regarding the logic of the multivariate analyses. In the revision, we’ve elaborated the rationale underlying our experimental design. Specifically, we’ve explained why the processing of intra-language similarity is expected to occur more frequently in the repetition condition (Rep-Cond) than in the alternation condition (Alt-Cond) whereas the reverse is true for the processing of inter-language difference. Importantly, we’ve clarified that the processing of intra-language similarity was assessed rather than defined by conducting the multivariate analyses. The multivariate analyses were conducted to assess correlation distances between neural responses to pairs of words, either within the same language or across different languages. We explained what smaller intra-language correlation distances and larger inter-language correlation distances mean for language-base categorization of words (see Page 7-8).

      We appreciate the alternative account of the observed neural repetition suppression (RS) effects in terms of language-type versus fine-grained identity (visual shape, orthography, semantics, phonology, etc.) feature processing. We included a paragraph in the revised Discussion to discuss how possible the early neural RS effect can be attributed to the processing of the fine-grained identity features of visual words. This discussion allowed us to clarify that the early neural RS effects related to visual words of familiar and unfamiliar languages highlight the early spontaneous language-based categorization as a unique process of visual words of alphabetic and non-alphabetic languages. However, our results do not exclude the possibility that the processing of the linguistic properties of visual words may contribute to the long-latency RS effect (see Page 37-38).

      Page 7-8

      “The processing of intra-language similarity occurs when two words of the same language are perceived repeatedly with short interstimulus intervals. Because words of the same language were repeatedly presented in the Rep-Cond and words of two different languages were displayed in the Alt-Cond, the processing of intra-language similarity occurred more frequently and would be inhibited in the Rep-Cond (vs. Alt-Cond) due to habituation (Fig. 1c). By contrast, the processing of inter-language difference takes place when two words of different languages are perceived with short interstimulus intervals. Since words of different languages appeared more frequently in the Alt-Cond (vs. Rep-Cond), we would expect RS of the processing of inter-language difference in the Alt-Cond (vs. Rep-Cond). The neural processing of intra-language similarity was quantified as correlation distances between neural responses to two words of the same language whereas the neural processing of inter-language difference was assessed as correlation distances between neural responses to two words of two different languages. The correlation distances from the multivariate analyses were further employed to assess how words of one language are clustered and how far words of two languages are separated in a two-dimensional (2D) space during language-based word categorization. Enhanced language-based word categorization is associated with smaller intra-language correlation distances, which reflect more densely clustered words of the same language, and larger inter-language correlation distances, which manifest further separated words of two different languages.”

      Page 37-38

      “How possible are the early neural RS effects within 200 ms after word onset observed in our study related to the processing of low-level perceptual features or high-level linguistic (e.g., orthography, semantics, phonology) properties of visual words? Our analyses of the ERPs to scrambled Chinese and English words in Experiment 2 did not show significant RS effect. Because only low-level visual features were preserved in the scrambled words, the ERP results provided no evidence that the early RS effects on the neural response to words can be attributed to habituation of perception of the low-level perceptual features. Furthermore, we found that the RS effects on the neural response to radicals and letters in Experiment 3 took place in a delayed time window and exhibited different scalp distributions (i.e., over the central region for radicals and occipital regions for letters) compared with the neural RS effects related to words. Thus the early RS effects on the neural response to words cannot be interpreted as habituation of perception of the middle-level units of Chinese and English words (i.e., radicals and letters) either. In addition, the early neural RS effects were similarly observed for both familiar (i.e., Chinese and English) and unfamiliar (i.e., Korean and Italian) languages and occurred earlier than the time window in which the processing of the linguistic properties of visual words takes place (Marinkovic et al., 2003; Hodgson et al., 2021; Zhu et al., 2022). Therefore, the early neural RS effects identified in our work were unlikely to be associated with the processing of the linguistic (e.g., orthography, semantics, phonology) properties of visual words since these properties of unfamiliar languages were unknown to the participants. Taken together, our findings of the early neural RS effects highlight an early word-level representation of alphabetic vs. non-alphabetic languages which distinguishes words from letters/radicals but is similar for familiar or unfamiliar languages. Our results, however, do not exclude the possibility that the processing of the linguistic properties of visual words may contribute to the long-latency RS effect around 300 ms after word onset. Further processing of the linguistic properties of visual words of familiar languages may follow the early language-based categorization of visual words, though this should be tested in future research.”

      (2) Question 2:

      For unlearned languages, people cannot distinguish lexical from sub-lexical levels. What, then, determines (i) the RS-effect difference between letters and radicals in familiar languages and words in unlearned ones, and (ii) the similarity of repetition effects between words in unlearned and familiar languages? An explicit account is needed.

      Thank you for this suggestion. In the revised manuscript, we’ve included a dedicated paragraph addressing these two issues. Specifically, we’ve provided a more precise account of the differences in repetition suppression (RS) effects between words and letters/radicals in familiar languages, as well as the similar RS effects observed for unlearned and familiar languages. We believe that our findings of the early neural RS effects highlight an early word-level representation of alphabetic vs. non-alphabetic languages which distinguishes words from letters/radicals but is similar for familiar or unfamiliar languages (see Page 37-38).

      Page 37-38

      “How possible are the early neural RS effects within 200 ms after word onset observed in our study related to the processing of low-level perceptual features or high-level linguistic (e.g., orthography, semantics, phonology) properties of visual words? Our analyses of the ERPs to scrambled Chinese and English words in Experiment 2 did not show significant RS effect. Because only low-level visual features were preserved in the scrambled words, the ERP results provided no evidence that the early RS effects on the neural response to words can be attributed to habituation of perception of the low-level perceptual features. Furthermore, we found that the RS effects on the neural response to radicals and letters in Experiment 3 took place in a delayed time window and exhibited different scalp distributions (i.e., over the central region for radicals and occipital regions for letters) compared with the neural RS effects related to words. Thus the early RS effects on the neural response to words cannot be interpreted as habituation of perception of the middle-level units of Chinese and English words (i.e., radicals and letters) either. In addition, the early neural RS effects were similarly observed for both familiar (i.e., Chinese and English) and unfamiliar (i.e., Korean and Italian) languages and occurred earlier than the time window in which the processing of the linguistic properties of visual words takes place (Marinkovic et al., 2003; Hodgson et al., 2021; Zhu et al., 2022). Therefore, the early neural RS effects identified in our work were unlikely to be associated with the processing of the linguistic (e.g., orthography, semantics, phonology) properties of visual words since these properties of unfamiliar languages were unknown to the participants. Taken together, our findings of the early neural RS effects highlight an early word-level representation of alphabetic vs. non-alphabetic languages which distinguishes words from letters/radicals but is similar for familiar or unfamiliar languages. Our results, however, do not exclude the possibility that the processing of the linguistic properties of visual words may contribute to the long-latency RS effect around 300 ms after word onset. Further processing of the linguistic properties of visual words of familiar languages may follow the early language-based categorization of visual words, though this should be tested in future research.”

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study investigates how the human brain categorizes visual words from distinct writing systems (alphabetic vs. non-alphabetic) as a neural basis for the social-categorization function of language. Using a repetition suppression paradigm combined with electroencephalography and magnetoencephalography, the authors conducted nine experiments with independent participants to identify the neural network underlying language-based categorization, characterize its temporal dynamics, and test whether this process operates independently of linguistic properties such as semantic meaning and pronunciation.

      Strengths:

      (1) The study employs a well-validated design with clear control conditions and systematically manipulates key variables, including writing system, language familiarity, and native language background. The use of nine experiments with independent participant samples strengthens the reliability and replicability of the results.

      (2) The work combines EEG and MEG, cross-validating findings across imaging modalities to support the reported neural effects. A combination of univariate, multivariate, and connectivity analyses is used to characterize neural responses and network interactions.

      (3) Results are consistent across multiple language groups and for both familiar and unfamiliar languages, supporting the generalizability of the identified neural mechanism beyond specific languages or prior experience.

      Weaknesses:

      The authors provide compelling evidence that the identified neural network supports the categorization of words by language, including computations of intra-language similarity and inter-language difference. However, the conceptual framing of this finding as directly reflecting the social-categorization function of language may be premature. While the task captures spontaneous language categorization, it does not involve social evaluation or intergroup processes. The connection to social categorization is inferred from prior literature rather than demonstrated within the current experimental design. Clarifying this distinction would strengthen the conceptual precision of the manuscript.

      Thank you for this important comment. In the revised Introduction and Discussion, we’ve clarified several related issues. First, prior research suggests that language can serve as a socially relevant category cue. Second, these findings imply that rapid categorization of words by language may occur in the human brain. Third, although our results identify a neural network supporting such rapid language-based categorization of visual words, they do not directly test how this process relates to social categorization of people (see Page 3-4; Page 39). Highlighting these points help delineate the scope of our findings and point to important directions for future research.

      Page 3-4

      “The social-categorization function of language revealed in these behavioral studies implicates that rapid categorization of words of different languages may occur in the human brain. Furthermore, the findings of infant studies (e. g., Liberman et al., 2017b) suggest that the neural process involved in categorization of words of different languages may develop even prior to the processing of linguistic properties (e.g. semantic meanings) of words. Nevertheless, up to date, there has been little neuroimaging research examining the neural mechanisms underlying automatic and fast categorization of words of different languages.”

      Page 39

      “Finally, it should be noted that the current work was initiated by the previous behavioral findings which suggest that language can serve as a socially relevant category cue but focused on the neural mechanisms underlying rapid language-based categorization of visual words. Although the previous findings suggest that the language-based categorization of visual words provides a cognitive basis of social categorization of people, our work did not directly test whether and how the neural processes involved in the language-based categorization of visual words are linked to social evaluation or intergroup processes which are critical for social categorization of people. To clarify this issue should promote deep comprehension of the neural mechanisms underlying the social-categorization function of language but is beyond the scope of the current study. Future research should investigate the connection between language-based categorization of words and social categorization based on other social cues (e.g., faces), which is pivotal to understanding of social interactions in real-world situations.”

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Revise the conceptual framing to clarify the relationship between the experimental results and the proposed social-categorization function of language. If the authors wish to retain the emphasis on social categorization in the title or discussion, they should explicitly explain how the observed neural mechanisms of language-based word categorization link to social evaluation, intergroup processes, or real-world social categorization. This clarification would strengthen the conceptual coherence and justify the use of social categorization within the current study's scope.

      Thank you for this and the following suggestions. In the revised Introduction and Discussion, we’ve clarified the following point: First, the findings of prior behavioral studies suggest a social-categorization function of language. Second, based on these behavioral findings, we predicted automatic and fast categorization of words by language. Our study tested this prediction using neuroimaging and investigated the neural mechanisms of language-type-based categorization of visual words. This is the main goal of our work. Third, to examine how the observed neural mechanisms of language-based word categorization link to social evaluation, intergroup processes, or real-world social categorization is important but beyond the scope of the current work. However, this is a very important question. Future research should test the connection between the neurocognitive processes involved in social categorization of people and the neural categorization of visual words by language revealed in our study. Consistently, the title of our paper “Neural categorization of visual words of alphabetic and non-alphabetic languages” and Discussion focus on contributions of our findings to understanding of the neural categorization of visual words by language rather than its connection to social categorization of people. Above all, we’ve clarified in the revision that our study was initiated by the findings of social function of language but was limited to the neural processing of visual words (see Page 3-4; Page 39). Thanks again for this comment.

      Page 3-4

      “The social-categorization function of language revealed in these behavioral studies implicates that rapid categorization of words of different languages may occur in the human brain. Furthermore, the findings of infant studies (e. g., Liberman et al., 2017b) suggest that the neural process involved in categorization of words of different languages may develop even prior to the processing of linguistic properties (e.g. semantic meanings) of words. Nevertheless, up to date, there has been little neuroimaging research examining the neural mechanisms underlying automatic and fast categorization of words of different languages.”

      Page 39

      “Finally, it should be noted that the current work was initiated by the previous behavioral findings which suggest that language can serve as a socially relevant category cue but focused on the neural mechanisms underlying rapid language-based categorization of visual words. Although the previous findings suggest that the language-based categorization of visual words provides a cognitive basis of social categorization of people, our work did not directly test whether and how the neural processes involved in the language-based categorization of visual words are linked to social evaluation or intergroup processes which are critical for social categorization of people. To clarify this issue should promote deep comprehension of the neural mechanisms underlying the social-categorization function of language but is beyond the scope of the current study. Future research should investigate the connection between language-based categorization of words and social categorization based on other social cues (e.g., faces), which is pivotal to understanding of social interactions in real-world situations.”

      (2) Clarify the consistency between the reported model order (5 ms lag) and the sampling rate after downsampling (250 Hz, corresponding to 4 ms per time point). If a discrepancy exists, clearly explain how the time-series data were processed.

      We clarified in the revision (see Page 53) that “because down-sampling was not applied to the GCA analyses, a 5-ms lag was used for prediction of the neural activity in one brain region using the neural activity in another brain region”.

      (3) For the representational similarity analysis (RSA), report reliability measures for the representational dissimilarity matrices (e.g., split-half reliability) to verify that the observed effects are stable given the number of trials per condition.

      Following this suggestion, we’ve conducted split-half reliability analyses and reported the results in the revised supplementary materials. The reliability analyses are also mentioned in the revised Discussion (see Page 40).

      Page 40

      “In conclusion, our EEG and MEG results revealed robust RS effects in the early neural responses to visual words of the same language. The reliability of these RS effects was confirmed across words of different familiar and unfamiliar languages, in samples of speakers with different native languages, and through split-half reliability analyses (see Supplementary Materials, Fig. S19). These effects were supported by the bilateral neural networks whose activity reflected computations of correlation distances between word pairs, capturing both intra-language similarity and inter-language differences during the categorization of visual words in alphabetic and non-alphabetic languages. Together, these findings advance our understanding of spontaneous, language-based neural categorization of visual words as a key basis of the social-categorization function of language.”

      (4) Provide complete statistical information for all significant results reported in the supplementary materials, including relevant test statistics (e.g., t-values, cluster p-values) in figure legends or a supplementary results table to improve transparency.

      Complete statistical information has been provided in the revised supplementary materials (see Tables S4 and S5).

      (5) Streamline the presentation of the nine experiments in the main text to emphasize the core conceptual and methodological logic, potentially using a schematic overview or flowchart to improve readability.

      As suggested, we’ve included an overview of the nine experiments in the revised Introduction. This overview helps understanding of the core conceptual and methodological issues in our work (see Page 6).

      Page 6

      “In nine experiments we recorded EEG/MEG signals from Chinese, English, and German speakers when viewing words of an alphabetic language and a non-alphabetic language (English and Chinese words, or Italian and Korean words) or of two alphabetic languages (English and German) in the Rep-Cond and Alt-Cond. We recorded EEG signals from Chinese participants to examine temporal neural dynamics of spontaneous language-based word categorization in Experiment 1. The similar paradigm was employed in Experiments 2 and 3 to investigate whether perceptual features or radical/letters of words are sufficient to generate spontaneous language-based categorization of visual words. The results in Experiment 1 were replicated in native English and German speakers in Experiments 4 and 5, respectively. Neural dynamics of categorization of words of two unlearned languages were further investigated in Chinese participants in Experiment 6. Finally, the neural networks supporting the spontaneous categorization of words of two learned or unlearned languages were localized using MEG in Chinese and English speakers in Experiments 7-9, respectively.”

      (6) Strengthen the transition between the discussion of the social-categorization function of language and the neural mechanisms of visual word categorization in the introduction.

      Following this suggestion, we’ve modified the Introduction to strengthen the transition between the discussion of the social-categorization function of language and research on neural mechanisms of visual word categorization (see Page 3-4).

      Page 3-4

      “The social-categorization function of language revealed in these behavioral studies implicates that rapid categorization of words of different languages may occur in the human brain. Furthermore, the findings of infant studies (e. g., Liberman et al., 2017b) suggest that the neural process involved in categorization of words of different languages may develop even prior to the processing of linguistic properties (e.g. semantic meanings) of words. Nevertheless, up to date, there has been little neuroimaging research examining the neural mechanisms underlying automatic and fast categorization of words of different languages.”

      (7) Briefly define the repetition suppression (RS) paradigm when first mentioned (i.e., reduced neural response to repeated stimuli from the same category, reflecting categorical processing) to improve accessibility for non-specialist readers.

      The RS paradigm is now defined in Introduction when being mentioned for the first time in the manuscript (see Page 5-6).

      Page 5-6

      “The present study investigated neural dynamics of categorization of visual words of two different (an alphabetic versus a non-alphabetic, or two different alphabetic) languages by combining EEG/MEG with a repetition suppression (RS) paradigm adopted from previous studies of social categorization of faces (Zhang et al., 2023b; Zhou et al., 2020). RS refers to the attenuation in neural responses to a repeated occurrence of stimuli that engage common neuronal populations or processes due to habituation (Grill-Spector et al., 2006). The RS paradigm consisted of an alternating condition (Alt-Cond), in which visual words of two different languages were presented alternately, and a repetition condition (Rep-Cond), in which words of one language were presented repeatedly (Fig. 1a). Neural responses to stimuli of the same category were attenuated in the Rep-Cond compared to Alt-Cond due to habituation and this RS effect disentangles the neural activities underlying categorization of faces and body silhouettes of a specific social group.”

      (8) Report detailed participant demographic information, including exact age range/mean age and gender ratio for each experiment, to meet standard reporting practices in neuroscience.

      We’ve modified Table S1 to include the information about exact age range/mean age and gender ratio in each experiment.

      (9) Correct minor typographical and grammatical errors, including These finding (line 59) and Chinse (line 223).

      These and other grammatical errors have been corrected in the revision.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This valuable study compares auditory cortex responses to sounds and cochlear implant stimulation measured with surface electrode grids in rats. Beyond the reduced frequency resolution of cochlear implants observed previously, this study suggests key discrepancies between neuronal representations of cochlear stimulations and natural sounds. The evidence for this result is solid but could be strengthened with a clarification of the methodology and an adaptation of the claim to the actual precision of the measurements. This study is of interest to researchers in the auditory neuroscience field and clinicians implementing treatments with cochlear implants.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary

      This manuscript addresses an important question in auditory neuroscience and neuroprosthetics: whether cortical responses to cochlear implant stimulation resemble those evoked by natural acoustic stimulation, or whether electrical stimulation engages a distinct cortical representation. The authors use high-density intracranial EEG recordings in rats to compare responses to pure tones in normal-hearing animals with responses to single-channel cochlear implant stimulation in deafened animals. They combine analyses of event-related potentials, high-gamma activity, trial-by-trial variability, PCA/TCA-based dimensionality reduction, and decoder-based measures of stimulus information.

      Strengths

      A major strength of the study is the question it addresses. Understanding how electrical cochlear stimulation is represented centrally is highly relevant for cochlear implant design, fitting strategies, and rehabilitation. The comparison between acoustic and electrical stimulation, including within-animal comparisons in a subset of cases, is valuable because it directly addresses whether implant-evoked activity can be interpreted within the framework of normal acoustic tonotopy.

      The methodological approach is also a strength. Dense cortical surface recordings provide simultaneous access to spatial and temporal features of auditory cortical responses. The combination of PCA, TCA, and decoder analyses gives complementary views of the data, and the information-transfer analysis provides an interesting way to ask whether representations learned from acoustic stimulation generalize to electrical stimulation.

      Weaknesses:

      The main weakness is that the evidence for spatial organization remains difficult to interpret. In Figure 2, the authors argue that both tone-evoked and cochlear implant-evoked responses are spatially organized, but the slope analyses are not significant for the cochlear implant condition. The revised vector-strength analysis supports the presence of non-random spatial structure, but this is not the same as demonstrating a clear graded cochleotopic organization. The manuscript would be strongest if it consistently distinguished between non-random spatial structure, coarse topography, and true graded tonotopy or cochleotopy.

      A related issue is that some figure titles and interpretive statements still appear stronger than the data justify. For example, the TCA results in Figure 7 are described as revealing topographically organized latent spatial factors, but the statistical support appears strongest for normal-hearing high-gamma responses, with weaker or non-significant results in other conditions. These data remain interesting, but they would be better framed as evidence for weak or coarse spatial structure rather than robust topographic organization across all modalities.

      The decoder analyses are improved, especially with the added tone-to-tone control. This control supports the conclusion that poor acoustic-to-CI transfer is not simply a failure of the TCA/LDA pipeline. However, the analysis remains model-dependent, and the absolute information transfer values are low. It would be helpful either to include an analogous analysis using raw ERP/high-gamma features or to explain more explicitly why the TCA-based approach is the appropriate primary test. The data support poor generalization between acoustic and implant-evoked cortical responses, but claims about perceptual qualities should remain speculative because perception is not directly measured in these experiments.

      Finally, although methodological reporting is much improved, some verification remains indirect. The authors provide useful implantation criteria and cite prior validation of their deafening approach, but the manuscript would be clearer if it explicitly distinguished between validation performed in the present animals and validation based on previous cohorts. This distinction is important because surgical variability, implantation efficacy, and deafening completeness can influence the interpretation of cochlear implant experiments.

      Comments on revised version.

      The revised manuscript is considerably improved. The authors have clarified several methodological details, added a statistical framework that better accommodates both paired and unpaired animals, provided a clearer account of animal cohorts, added peripheral ECAP/forward-masking data to support the cochlear specificity of implant stimulation, and included a useful positive control for the cross-modal decoder analysis. These additions make the manuscript stronger and help readers interpret the main findings more confidently.

      The results support the conclusion that acoustic and cochlear implant stimulation evoke cortical responses with different properties. In particular, acoustic responses support better single-trial stimulus decoding than cochlear implant responses, and decoders trained on acoustic responses transfer poorly to implant-evoked responses. The evidence for spatial organization is more nuanced. The cochlear implant condition shows evidence of non-random spatial structure, but not a clear graded cochleotopic map. The normal-hearing condition is also less visually clear than might be expected from prior tonotopy studies, although the added analyses and comparisons to previous work help contextualize this result. Overall, the study makes a valuable contribution, provided that the claims about spatial organization and perceptual interpretation remain appropriately cautious.

      The revision addresses several important concerns from the original version. The use of mixed-effects models better matches the partially paired experimental design. The expanded Methods improve reproducibility. The new cohort schematic helps clarify which animals contributed to behavioral and neural datasets. The ECAP forward-masking measurements add useful peripheral validation, and the within-modality decoder control strengthens the interpretation of the poor cross-modal transfer result. Together, these changes substantially improve the manuscript.

      The work is likely to be of interest to auditory neuroscientists, cochlear implant researchers, and neuroengineers. Even where some conclusions require cautious wording, the dataset and analytical framework may be useful for future studies aiming to relate cortical responses to implant programming, perceptual learning, or closed-loop neuroprosthetic approaches.

      Overall, the revised manuscript is stronger and addresses an important problem with useful methods and analyses. The results most convincingly show that acoustic responses support better single-trial decoding than acute cochlear implant responses, and that acoustic-trained decoders generalize poorly to implant-evoked activity. The evidence for robust spatial organization, especially in the cochlear implant condition, is more limited and should be presented with appropriate caution.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This article reports measurements of iEEG signals on the rat auditory cortex during cochlear implant or sound stimulation in separate groups of rats. The observations indicate some spatial organization of cochlear implant stimuli, but that is very different from cochlear implants.

      Strengths:

      The study includes interesting analyses of the sound and cochlear implant representation structure based on decoders.

      Weaknesses:

      The observation that responses to cochlear implant stimulation (stimulation) is spatially organized is not new (e.g. Adenis et al. 2024)

      The claim that spatial and temporal dimensions contribute information about the sound is also not new there is a large literature on this topic.

      The analyses supporting the claim that there is a mismatch between cochlear implant and sound representation are still unclear, particularly in Fig. 8.

    4. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Through micro-electroencephalography, Hight and colleagues studied how the auditory cortex in its ensemble respond to cochlear implant stimulation compared to the classic pure tones. Taking advantage of a double implanted rat model (Micro-ECoG and Cochlear Implant), they tracked and analyzed changes happening in the temporal and spatial aspects of the cortical evoked responses in both normal hearing and cochlear-implanted animals. After establishing that single trial responses were sufficient to encode the stimuli properties, the authors then explored several decoder architectures to study the cortex ability to encode each stimuli modality in a similar or different manner. They conclude that a) intracranial EEG evoked responses can be accurately recorded and did not differed between normal hearing and cochlear-implanted rats; b) Although coarsely spatially organized, CI-evoked responses had higher trial-by-trial variability than pure tones; c) Stimulus identity is independently represented by temporal and spatial aspect of cortical representations and can be accurately decoded by various means from single trials; d) and that Pure tones trained decoder can't decode CI-stimulus identity accurately.

      Strength:

      The model combining micro-eCoG and cochlear implantation and the methodology to extract both the Event Related Potentials (ERPs) and High-Gammas (HGs) is very well designed and appropriately analyzed. Likewise, the PCA-LDA and TCA-LDA are powerful tools that take full advantage of the information provided by the cortical ensembles.

      The overall structure of the paper, with a paced and exhaustive progress through each step and evolution of the decoder is very appreciable and easy to follow. The exploration of single trial encoding and stimulus identity through temporal and spatial domains is providing new avenues to characterize the cortical responses CI stimulations and their central representation. The fact that single trials suffice to decode the stimulus identity regardless of their modality is of great interest and noteworthy. Although the authors confirm that iEEG remains difficult to transpose in clinic, the insights provided by the study confirm the potential benefit of using central decoders to help in clinic settings.

      Weakness:

      The conclusion of the paper, especially the concept of distinct cortical encoding for each modality, is unfortunately partially supported by the results as the authors ignored fundamental limitations of CI related stimulation.

      First, the authors stimulated in a Monopolar mode which, albeit being clinically relevant, notoriously generates a high current spread in rodent models. Comparing the averaged BF maps for iEEG (Fig-2A, C), BFs ranged from 4 to 16kHz with a predominance of 4kHz BFs. The lack of BFs at higher frequencies might reveal a potential location mismatch between the frequency range sampled at the level of the cortex (low to medium frequencies) and the frequency range covered by the CI inserted mostly in the first turn-and-a-half of the cochlea (high to medium frequencies). Looking at Fig-2F (and to some extend 2A) most of CI electrodes elicited responses around the 4kHz regions and averaged maps show a predominance of CI-3-4 across cortex (Fig-2C, H and Sup Fig. 3) from areas with 4kHz BF to areas with 16kHz BF. It is doubtful that CI-3-4 are located near the 4kHz region based on Müller's work (1991) on the frequency representation in the rat cochlea. Moreover, Supplemental figure 3 shows that only a couple of CI electrodes are predominately represented at the level of the cortex. Thus, it seems possible that current spread ended stimulating indistinctly higher turns of the cochlea or even the modiolus in a non-specific manner, greatly reducing (or smearing) the place-coding/frequency resolution of each electrode, which in turn could explain the coarse topographic (or coarsely tonotopic according to the manuscript) organization of the cortical responses.

      Second, although the authors acknowledge that post-lingual CI users always have an adaptation period, their conclusion is based on measurements that are relatively "early" in the CI-use timeline so to speak since iEEG were collected a) acutely right after mono-aural implantation and stimulation, b) under anesthesia, c) using unmodulated pulse train fixed at 900pps regardless of the electrode used and thus lacking any temporal information shifts in relationship to electrode cochleotopic placement. Basically, all CI electrodes had the same rate whereas you would expect basal CI electrodes to be amplitude modulated at higher frequencies than apical electrodes.

      As much as the reviewer likes the overall approach with the use of PCA-LDA and TCA, and agrees that information transfer seems inexistant at time of measurement, authors should be more careful in their strong conclusion that two distinct encoding exist. The non-overlapping between sound and electric stimulation representations might exist only transiently and this should be acknowledged a bit more in the discussion. Without repetition of iEEG measurement at later period with chronic use of the CI, it is not possible to definitively claim that two distinct, non-overlapping coding co-exist at all times.

      Nevertheless, the reviewer wants to reiterate that the study proposed by Hight et al. is well constructed, relevant to the field and that the overall proposal of improving patient performances and help their adaptation in the first months of CI use by studying central responses should be pursued as it might help establish new guidelines or create new clinical tools.

    5. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Summary of revision for all referees:

      We thank referees for their constructive comments. To address their concerns, we now performed additional statistical analyses integrating both paired and unpaired data, performed positive controls for comparisons between NH- and CI- evoked iEEG measurements, developed tools for measuring and collected new experimental data on forward masking ECAP measurements in CI implanted rats (N=3), and reworked both manuscript text and figures to improve clarity. These most significant changes are summarized here, and a complete list of responses to reviewers and corresponding changes will follow.

      Summary of major changes to revised manuscript:

      (1) Statistical treatment of paired vs unpaired recordings using mixed-effects models (updates to all manuscript figures that compare NH vs CI); this largely confirmed the results reported in our original submission.

      (2) New analysis, controlling for information-theoretic cross-modality comparison (i.e., training with tone- and testing with cochlear implant-evoked iEEG measures, Fig. 8).

      (3) Clarification of methods (Supplemental Fig. 2 & manuscript text)

      (4) Additional experiments testing peripheral tuning of our 8-channel CI rodent model via forward masking ECAP measures across 3 animals (N=3, Supplemental Fig. 1)

      (5) Detailed response addressing robustness of tonotopy in NH and CI animals

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Strengths:

      The study poses a timely, clinically relevant question with clear implications for CI strategy. The analytical toolkit is appropriate: µECoG captures mesoscale patterns; TCA offers a transparent separation of spatial and temporal structure; and mutual-information decoding provides an interpretable measure of single-trial discriminability. Within-subject recordings in a subset of animals, in principle, help isolate modality effects from inter-animal variability. Where analyses are most direct, the acoustic condition yields higher single-trial decoding accuracy, which is a meaningful and clearly presented result.

      We appreciate the comments on the strengths of our analytic approaches.

      Weaknesses:

      Parts of the statistical treatment do not match the data structure: some comparisons mix paired and unpaired animals but are analysed as fully paired, raising concerns about misestimated uncertainty.

      Please see our response to specific comment #2 above. In short, we agree with this critique of our original analyses, and in our revised manuscript we re-analyzed all NH vs. CI comparisons using linear mixed effects models that incorporate both paired and unpaired observations within a single framework. This allows us to include all animals, account for within-animal dependence for paired experiments (normal hearing and cochlear implant data from the same animal when available), and to align the statistical tests with the data shown in the figures. In almost every case, the mixed effects models confirm our original conclusions. Two comparisons that were previously nonsignificant now reach criterion for statistical significance (Fig. 2E, p=0.048 and Fig. 6F, p=0.027). We updated the manuscript to report these values and to clarify the use of mixed effects modeling in the methods under the section titled, “Linear mixed effects modeling.”

      Methodological reporting is incomplete in places; essential parameters for both acoustic and electrical stimulation, as well as objective verification of implantation and deafening, are not described with sufficient detail to support confident interpretation or replication.

      Please see our response to comment #5 below. We have revised our manuscript to now include this information in the methods.

      Figure-level clarity also undermines the message. In Figure 2, non-significant slopes for CI, repeated identification of a single "best channel," mismatched axes, and unclear distinctions between example and averaged panels make the assertion of spatial organisation unconvincing; importantly, the normal-hearing panels also do not display tonotopy as clearly as expected, which weakens the key contrast the paper seeks to establish.

      This is an important point, thanks- please see responses to comment #1 above. We note that conventional tonotopic maps in auditory cortex are characteristic frequency maps, i.e., maps of topographic organization for responses to lowest-threshold stimuli (often presented around 20-50 dB SPL). Our maps were constructed from stimuli presented at 70 dB SPL, thus blunting crisp tonotopy to some degree. Furthermore, we quantified spatial organization using a previously published method from the Polley lab (Romero & Hight et al. 2020), in which local tonotopic gradient vectors (magnitude and direction) were computed from GCaMP responses at each pixel and projected onto a unit circle. Mean vector strength across all pixels was then compared to a shuffled distribution as a measure of tonotopic organization. We applied the same procedure to our iEEG best-frequency and best-channel maps. Both map types yielded mean vector strengths that were substantially larger than those derived from shuffled maps (p < 10<sup>-10</sup>), indicating that our maps have a consistent tonotopic (for BFs) or cochleotopic (for CI channels) organization that is highly unlikely to arise by chance. This is now included in our revised manuscript.

      Finally, the decoding claims would be strengthened by simple internal controls, such as within modality train/test splits and decoding on raw ERP/high-gamma features to demonstrate that poor cross-modal transfer reflects genuine differences in the underlying responses rather than limitations of the modelling pipeline.

      Please see our response to comment #12 below. In short, we have now included this analysis in revised Figure 8.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Strengths:

      The study includes interesting analyses of the sound and cochlear implant representation structure based on decoders.

      We appreciate the comment on how interesting our analyses are, thanks!

      Weaknesses:

      The observation that responses to cochlear implant stimulation (stimulation) are spatially organized is not new (e.g., Adenis et al. 2024).

      We agree that it is not particularly novel to report that there is spatial organization to cochlear implant stimulation. However, we believe that our direct comparisons (when possible, within animal) between normal-hearing and cochlear implant modality maps is unusual in the literature, including asking how decoders based on one set of responses might apply to responses evoked from the other modality. Adenis et al. (2024) is a fantastic study of pulse shape and monopolar vs bipolar stimulation modes with a 6-channel implant in guinea pig, but as far as we can tell this study does also not compare normal hearing maps prior to deafening and implantation to the cochlear implant maps in the same animals.

      The claim that spatial and temporal dimensions contribute information about the sound is also not new; there is a large literature on this topic. Moreover, the results shown here are extremely weak. They show similar levels of information in the spatial and temporal dimensions, and no synergy between the two dimensions. This is however, likely the consequence of high measurement noise leading to poor accuracy in the information estimates, as the authors state.

      Good point, please see our response to comment #1 below.

      The main claim of the study - the mismatch between cochlear implant and sound representation - is not supported. The responses to each modality are measured in different animals. The authors do not show that they actually can compare representations across animals (e.g., for the same sounds). Without this positive control, there is no reason to think that it is possible to decode from one animal with a decoder trained on another, and the negative result shown by the authors is therefore not surprising.

      Good point, thanks- please see our response to comment #2 below, where we describe this new control we have added.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Strengths:

      The model combining micro-eCoG and cochlear implantation and the methodology to extract both the Event Related Potentials (ERPs) and High-Gammas (HGs) is very well designed and appropriately analyzed. Likewise, the PCA-LDA and TCA-LDA are powerful tools that take full advantage of the information provided by the cortical ensembles. The overall structure of the paper, with a paced and exhaustive progress through each step and evolution of the decoder, is very appreciable and easy to follow. The exploration of single-trial encoding and stimulus identity through temporal and spatial domains is providing new avenues to characterize the cortical responses to CI stimulations and their central representation. The fact that single trials suffice to decode the stimulus identity regardless of their modality is of great interest and noteworthy. Although the authors confirm that iEEG remains difficult to transpose in the clinic, the insights provided by the study confirm the potential benefit of using central decoders to help in clinic settings… the reviewer wants to reiterate that the study proposed by Hight et al. is well constructed, relevant to the field, and that the overall proposal of improving patient performances and helping their adaptation in the first months of CI use by studying central responses should be pursued as it might help establish new guidelines or create new clinical tools.

      We thank the Reviewer for the positive comments about the thoroughness of our analyses and clear organization of our manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      The conclusion of the paper, especially the concept of distinct cortical encoding for each modality, is unfortunately partially supported by the results, as the authors did not adequately consider fundamental limitations of CI-related stimulation. First, the reviewer assumed that the authors stimulated in a Monopolar mode, which, albeit being clinically relevant, notoriously generates a high current spread in rodent models.

      Thanks, this is an important potential concern. Please see our response to comment #5 of Referee 1 and responses to comment #3 below. We agree that monopolar stimulation would be expected to be less spatially specific than bipolar or multipolar modes. However, we chose monopolar stimulation because it is the main clinical configuration in human CI users and therefore most relevant for translational purposes. For our revised manuscript, we made new ECAP measurements of peripheral (spatial and temporal) tuning via a forward masking paradigm and demonstrate that monopolar is effectively tuned (Supplemental Fig. 2). Together with additional single-animal maps in Supplementary Figure 3, together with our vector-strength analysis (Response Fig. 2), demonstrate that even under acute monopolar stimulation we observe structured cochleotopic organization in cortex, rather than the extremely low-pass patterns one might expect if monopolar spread was a major contaminant.

      Second, comparing the averaged BF maps for iEEG (Figure 2A, C), BFs ranged from 4 to 16kHz with a predominance of 4kHz BFs. The lack of BFs at higher frequencies hints at a potential location mismatch between the frequency range sampled at the level of the cortex (low to medium frequencies) and the frequency range covered by the CI inserted mostly in the first turn-and-a-half of the cochlea (high to medium frequencies). Looking at Figure 2F (and to some extent 2A), most of the CI electrodes elicited responses around the 4kHz regions, and averaged maps show a predominance of CI-3-4 across the cortex (Figure 2C, H) from areas with 4kHz BF to areas with 16kHz BF. It is doubtful that CI-3-4 are located near the 4kHz region based on Müller's work (1991) on the frequency representation in the rat cochlea.

      Please see our responses to comment #3 below.

      Taken together with the Pearsons correlations being flat, the decoder examples showing a strong ability to identify CI-4 and 3 and the Fig-8D, E presenting a strong prediction of 4kHz and 8kHz for all the CI electrodes when using a pure tone trained decoder, it is possible that current spread ended stimulating indistinctly higher turns of the cochlea or even the modiolus in a non-specific manner, greatly reducing (or smearing) the place-coding/frequency resolution of each electrode, which in turn could explain the coarse topographic (or coarsely tonotopic according to the manuscript) organization of the cortical responses. Thus, the conclusion that there are distinct encodings for each modality is biased, as it might not account for monopolar smearing. To that end, and since it is the study's main message and title, it would have benefited from having a subgroup of animals using bipolar stimulations (or any focused strategy since they provide reduced current spread) to compare the spatial organization of iEEG responses and the performances of the different decoders to dismiss current spread and strengthen their conclusion.

      Please see our responses to comment #4 below as well as our responses related to monopolar vs bipolar stimulation. We agree that for future studies, it will be important to do a heads-on comparison of the differences between bipolar and monopolar stimulation depending on electrode location and stimulation intensity.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      We thank the reviewer for commenting on the strengths of our manuscript, including appreciating the power and timeliness of our approach.

      (1a) Figure 2 does not convincingly support the claim that "tone-evoked and CI-evoked iEEG measurements are spatially organized," particularly for CI data: Figure 2C repeatedly highlights the same "best channel," and the slopes in Figures 2B and 2G are non-significant; there are also discrepancies between panels (A vs. C, F vs. H) and mismatched frequency ranges (0-16 kHz vs. up to 32 kHz), which should be clarified as exemplar versus averaged displays and harmonized in scale.

      (First we note that Reviewer 3 also raised related concerns about the robustness of tonotopy in our iEEG data.) We address these by comparing our maps to previously published tonotopic maps, and using an established quantitative analysis of tonotopic strength from Romero & Hight et al. (2020).

      First, to place our tone-evoked iEEG maps in context, we overlaid them on the same spatial scale and orientation as both single-unit tonotopy in rat primary auditory cortex (A1) from Polley et al. (2006) and iEEG maps obtained with the same surface array in Insanally et al. (2016). The rostral–caudal and dorsal–ventral axes and cortical extents are matched across panels. Our best-frequency maps (Figure 2C) qualitatively recapitulate the high-to-low frequency gradient and spatial layout reported in both of these prior studies, supporting our claim that tone-evoked iEEG captures canonical mesoscale tonotopy. We have updated the manuscript results section to directly reference these two studies, “The area and orientations of tone-evoked maps qualitatively match those published from single unit recordings (Polley et al. 2006) and published using similar iEEG arrays (Insanally et al. 2016).”

      Second, to quantify tonotopy in a way that is directly comparable to previous work, we reproduced the analysis of Romero & Hight et al. (2020), who examined tone-evoked GCaMP signals (Romero & Hight et al. (2020)). In that paper, local tonotopic gradient vectors (magnitude and direction) were computed at each pixel and projected onto a unit circle; the mean vector strength across all pixels was then compared to a shuffled distribution as a measure of tonotopic organization. We applied the same procedure to our iEEG best-frequency and best-channel maps (Fig. 2C-E). Both map types yielded mean vector strengths that were substantially larger than those derived from shuffled maps (p < 10<sup>-10</sup>), indicating that our maps have a consistent tonotopic (for BFs) or cochleotopic (for CI channels) organization that is highly unlikely to arise by chance. We cite this paper for these analyses related to Figure 2.

      (1b) Figure 2C repeatedly highlights the same ‘best channel’

      We agree that many CI-evoked maps are dominated by a single channel, as seen in our exemplar and in the additional animals shown in new Supplemental Fig. 3. In Fig. 2C, channel 5 emerges as the dominant best channel, as CI-evoked activity in this animal is broad and is strongest for channel 5 (Fig. 2A). This reflects a feature of iEEG signals rather than a plotting artifact. Biophysically, iEEG reflects spatially summed local field potentials that low-pass filter underlying neural activity; these far-field signals aggregate excitatory and inhibitory processes and are not expected to show the sharp single-neuron tuning seen in spike recordings. As a result, broad peaks centered on the most strongly driven channels are expected. We have added text in the results section discussing these limitations, overall maps reduced from iEEG responses were similar in size and orientation compared to single unit maps, “albeit at coarser gradients likely due to aggregate recordings of excitatory and inhibitory activity and low-pass filtering due to potentials originating far from recording sites.” We also added in the results section the comparison of spatial correlations (Fig. 2B,G) at the extremes of stimulus separation “electrode separations (CI 1 vs ≥5 electrodes, ERP: p=0.01, HG: p=0.04)” as analyzed by linear mixed effects models.

      (1c) Mismatched frequency ranges

      We constricted the range of frequencies plotted in some panels (e.g., Fig. 2C from 1.4-32 kHz to 1.4-16 kHz) to emphasize the compressed range of tonotopic gradients and patterns.

      (1d) The slopes in Figures 2B and 2G are non-significant

      We agree that non-significant group-level slopes indicate that CI-evoked tonotopy is weaker than tone-evoked tonotopy, and we now emphasize this point. At the same time, the data exhibit systematic structure: for both ERP and HG, mean spatial correlations decline monotonically with increasing CI channel separation (Fig. 2B,G). We also directly compared spatial correlations at the extremes of stimulus separations (1 vs. ≥5-channel separation) and found a significant difference. This is updated in the manuscript as: “At the extremes, the spatial correlations were always higher for small vs. large tone separations (NH 0.5 vs ≥3.5 octaves, ERP: p<10<sup>-4</sup>, HG: p<10<sup>-4</sup> Student’s one-tailed t-test) and electrode separations (CI 1 vs ≥5 electrodes, ERP: p=0.01, HG: p=0.04).”. Together with the strong deviation from shuffled maps in the vector-strength analysis (Fig. 2E), we argue that analysis of spatial correlations indicates that CI-evoked maps are not random but reflect a coarse underlying gradient. In addition, as tone-evoked maps exhibit tonotopy, we asked if CI stimulation itself is at least spatially tuned in the periphery. Using ECAPs with a forward-masking paradigm (new Supplemental Fig. 1), we show that probe-evoked ECAPs are significantly more suppressed by adjacent than by distant maskers (N = 3), demonstrating functional spatial tuning of CI electrodes in the cochlea. We have also replotted these results in comparison with the same measurements from a human CI user (Author response image 1). This supports the interpretation that peripheral input is spatially specific and that the weaker cortical cochleotopy likely reflects the properties and resolution of iEEG and acute CI stimulation rather than a complete absence of spatial organization. Overall, the new comparative figures and analyses are intended to make transparent that (i) iEEG robustly captures tonotopy for acoustic tones, and (ii) CI-evoked CI-evoked responses exhibit coarser, but statistically non-random, cochleotopic organization.

      Author response image 1.

      Here, we compare data from the new Supplemental Figure 1C,D with human data (N=1) for spatial & temporal tuning in the periphery, as assessed by forward masking ECAP measurements. A) Spatial tuning functions were averaged across all probe electrodes and 3 animals (left) and 1 human subject (right) (black, mean; gray: s.e.m..; orange, average of individual subjects). B) Temporal tuning functions were averaged across all probe electrodes and 3 animals (left) and 1 human subject (right) (black, mean; gray, s.e.m.; orange, average of individual subjects). Note: human subject is the first-author, a long-term cochlear implant user (>10 years) with significant open set speech perception.

      (2) The statistical approach is inappropriate where pairing is incomplete: a Student's paired two-tailed t-test is used despite not all data being paired; a linear mixed-effects model would be more suitable, whereas an unpaired test risks reduced power.

      We agree with this suggestion. As the reviewer notes (also raised by Reviewer 3), our original analyses did not fully exploit the partially paired structure of the data. In the initial submission we used paired t-tests when animals contributed both normal-hearing (NH) and CI measurements, which meant that animals with only NH or only CI data were excluded from those tests.

      To address this, we have re-analyzed all NH vs. CI comparisons using linear mixed-effects models that incorporate both paired and unpaired observations within a single framework. This approach allows us to (i) include all available animals, (ii) appropriately account for within-animal dependence when both conditions are present, and (iii) align the statistical tests with the data shown in the figures. In nearly all cases, the mixed-effects models confirm our original conclusions. Two comparisons that were previously non-significant are now significant in the positive direction: Fig. 2E (p = 0.048) and Fig. 6F (p = 0.027, linear mixed-effects models). We have updated the manuscript to report these values and to clarify the use of mixed-effects modeling in the methods under the section titled, “Linear mixed effects modeling.”

      (3a) Given the surgical complexity, objective verification of implantation and deafening is needed (e.g., eABRs for implant function and post-deafening ABR thresholds)”

      We agree that objective verification of both implant placement and deafening is critical, particularly given the surgical complexity of multichannel CI implantation in rats. Note that we previously extensively documented deafness in our cochlear implant rats with eABRs, histology of hair cell counts, and behavior (turning the implant off and seeing performance drop to chance). As we argued in Glennon et al. Nature 2023, the primary outcome measure and definition of deafness is behavioral, as anatomical and physiological markers are correlates of functional deafness but ultimately deafness must be defined in terms of behavioral performance. This is described in more detail below.

      We agree that objective verification of both implant placement and deafening is critical, particularly given the surgical complexity of multichannel CI implantation in rats. Note that we previously extensively documented deafness in our cochlear implant rats with eABRs, histology of hair cell counts, and behavior (turning the implant off and seeing performance drop to chance). As we argued in Glennon et al. Nature 2023, the primary outcome measure and definition of deafness is behavioral, as anatomical and physiological markers are correlates of functional deafness but ultimately deafness must be defined in terms of behavioral performance. This is described in more detail below.

      Implant placement: Our primary concern during surgery is to ensure that the CI array is correctly positioned along the cochlear spiral toward the apex. As shown in Author response image 2, once the bulla is opened and the cochleostomy is made at the junction of the temporal bone and the stapedial artery, the orientation of the cochlear spiral is clearly visible under the surgical microscope. We advance the 8-channel array only in the apical direction, and we require that all 8 electrodes pass through the cochleostomy. A complete insertion of all 8 electrodes cannot be achieved with a basal-ward trajectory, so full insertion provides a strong anatomical confirmation that the array is directed apically. The white band on the array, visible just basal to the cochleostomy (Author response image 2), serves as a consistent visual marker of complete insertion. We have added text and this figure to the Methods to clarify these criteria, “We required that all eight electrodes pass through the cochleostomy, confirming that the array was inserted in the direction of the apex.”

      Verification of deafening: We also share the reviewer’s concern about confirming profound hearing loss, particularly because some CI animals were presented acoustic tones to drive individual channels. We used the same mechanical-only deafening procedure described and validated in our previous work (King et al., 2016; Glennon et al., 2023), which was chosen to minimize systemic side-effects and maximize post-surgical survival, validated in three ways:

      - Histology: In N=4 deafened animals, inner hair cell loss was ~50% and outer hair cell loss was near complete at almost 100% in all animals.

      - Physiology: For N=14 rats, acoustic ABRs were substantial before deafening but statistically similar to baseline noise after deafening.

      - Behavior: For N=16 deafened rats, behavioral performance with implant on was d′: 1.7±0.1, but when implant was turned off in a subset of sessions, performance dropped to chance (d′: −0.05±0.1, P < 0.0001).

      Author response image 2.

      Visual confirmation of a successful electrode insertion. The direction of an 8-channel array being implanted toward the apex is clear under microscope. Full insertion of all 8 channels is further confirmed by the white band’s (located after basal electrode) proximity to the cochleostomy.

      This combination of histological, physiological, and behavioral evidence indicates that the mechanical-only deafening protocol produces profound hearing loss, with no functionally relevant residual hearing at intensities equal to or greater than those used in our study (70 dB SPL). Given this prior validation under identical surgical and experimental conditions, we are confident that our CI animals were effectively deafened and that the iEEG responses we report are driven by the implant rather than by residual acoustic hearing. We now clarify this in the Methods and explicitly cite our validation: “(mechanical only, as described and validated in Glennon et al. 2023).

      (3b) One CI animal did not learn the task (Fig. 1C), potentially reflecting implantation efficacy.

      Good point, thanks. For both humans and rats, cochlear implant performance can be highly variable, reflecting a number of factors in terms of device performance, training efficacy and motivation, or other technical or biological sources of heterogeneity. We note however that not all animals included in this study were behaviorally trained, and wanted to show the full range of variable performance for the subset of animals that were trained (N=4 typical hearing and N=3 cochlear implant rats, one of the 4 trained animals lost the implant before it could be re-trained on the cochlear implant version of the task). We now highlight this range of performance variability in the results section and explain why N=4 normal-hearing and N=3 cochlear implant rats.

      (4) The behavioural paradigm and cohort accounting are unclear: Figure 1C shows four NH-trained rats, yet subsequent analyses include only two NH-trained animals, which is confusing.

      We have now clarified the relation between the behavioral cohort and the iEEG cohort in the revised manuscript. The key point is that the animals in Figure 1C are defined by their behavioral training history (NH vs CI training), whereas inclusion in the iEEG analyses is defined by the specific stimuli collected during acute recordings, and these two categorizations are not always the same. In total, four rats underwent both iEEG recordings and behavioral training. Of these four, three were subsequently deafened, implanted with chronic CIs, and trained on the CI-driven task (Fig. 1C). With respect to the acute iEEG experiments, we obtained tone-only iEEG in 1 animal, CI-only iEEG in 2 animals, and both tone- and CI-evoked iEEG in 1 animal.

      Thus, the “NH-trained” label in Figure 1C refers to behavioral training status, not to the stimulus conditions used during iEEG recordings. All iEEG measurements were acute and performed immediately after surgery (for CI animals) or in the normal-hearing condition, before any CI behavioral training. Consequently, the behavioral cohort in Figure 1C is larger than the subset of animals that contributed to specific iEEG contrasts in later figures, which explains why some panels include only two NH animals.

      To clarify this, we have added a new Supplementary Figure 2 that provides a timeline for each animal, indicating when behavioral training occurred, when deafening and implantation occurred, and which stimulus conditions (tones vs CI) were used for each iEEG recording. We kept this figure in the Supplementary section because the focus of the manuscript is on evoked iEEG measurements rather than behavior, but the revised text now explicitly refers to this schematic when describing the cohorts “The combinations of animals that underwent behavioral training and acute iEEG measurements are shown in Supplemental Fig. 2.”

      (5) Methods lack essential details: specify acoustic stimulus types and intensities, CI stimulation parameters (e.g., current/charge per phase, phase width, rate, loudness setting), and the recording state (awake vs. anaesthetised), which is only implied in the discussion.

      We agree that these details are essential, and Reviewer 3 raised similar concerns about methodological clarity. We have now expanded the Methods to specify the acoustic stimuli, CI stimulation parameters, and recording state.

      Acoustic stimuli: We now describe the acoustic stimulus set in the Methods, which references Insanally et al. (2016). Briefly, tones were pure sinusoids spanning frequencies from 1.4 to 32 kHz (half octave spaced), presented at 70 dB SPL with a duration of 50 ms with 2ms cosine-squared ramps and at a pseudorandom sequence of 1.25 Hz. These parameters are now updated in the methods under “Stimulus presentation for cortical sensory mapping in normal hearing rats.”

      CI stimulation parameters: CI stimulation used standard clinical-style monopolar mappings. We now specify in the Methods that pulses were biphasic, charge-balanced, with 8 µs interphase gaps and 25 µs /phase (total pulse width = 58 µs); stimulation rate was 900 pulses per second (pps); and current amplitude (and thus charge per phase) was set individually for each electrode based on its ECAP threshold. All stimulation levels were within normal and safe limits: charge densities remained below the Shannon limit and within the electrochemical “water window.”

      Loudness setting: In this study, CI stimuli were presented primarily at a single level—each electrode was stimulated at its ECAP threshold level for the tone-to-CI mapping experiments. We have added these details in the methods under the “Stimulus presentation for cortical sensory mapping in cochlear implanted rats” subsection.

      Recording state: All iEEG recordings reported in the manuscript were acute and performed under anesthesia. This is now stated explicitly at the start of the Methods section.

      (6) Plasticity and training effects warrant further consideration: although the manuscript reports no difference between naïve and trained rats, Figure 3 suggests greater across-trial variability for CI than NH that is not evident in the trained subset; examining relationships among behavioural performance, decoder performance, across-trial variability, and training duration would strengthen interpretation.

      We agree that plasticity and training effects are central questions for cochlear implant research and that iEEG is well suited to study how cortical representations evolve with CI use. However, the current dataset was collected mainly to compare cortical encoding of acoustic versus CI stimulation under matched, acute conditions (not necessarily after behavioral training with the implant, and we note that most studies of physiological responses to cochlear implant function in non-human species also do not incorporate aspects of training). All CI-evoked iEEG recordings were obtained immediately after implantation, before any CI-based behavioral training. As a result, any training effects reflected in the iEEG data can only arise from prior normal-hearing training, not from experience with CI stimuli themselves. Only a small subset of animals (N = 3 of 10) underwent behavioral training with cochlear implants, and their training histories (duration, performance levels, CI hardware status) are not uniform. This yields insufficient statistical power to meaningfully examine correlations among behavioral performance, decoder performance, across-trial variability, and training duration. While we note the reviewer’s observation that across-trial variability appears qualitatively different in the small, trained subset, we do not believe the current data justify strong conclusions about training-related plasticity.

      (7) Differentiating the CI rats stimulated directly or through the microphone of the speech processor -at least in the figures - would be useful to allow the reader to assess whether both stimulation strategies give rise to similar results.

      We agree that it is important to distinguish between rats stimulated directly via CI hardware and those stimulated acoustically through a speech processor. We now show in new Supplementary Figure 2, which animals received direct electrical stimulation and which were driven acoustically through the processor microphone. We also now plot tonotopic and cochleotopic maps for all CI animals in Supplementary Figure 3, with the stimulation mode indicated for each animal. As discussed in our response to comment #2 of Reviewer 3, we also provide validation that acoustic tones can be used to selectively drive individual electrodes via the speech processor. However, the sample sizes for the two stimulation strategies are small (N = 4 rats with direct CI stimulation, N = 3 rats with acoustic CI stimulation). For this reason, we have chosen not to draw strong statistical conclusions about differences between direct vs acoustic CI stimulation in the present manuscript.

      (8) Typographical error at the end of the introduction ("To this end we have designed and manufactured..."), and in the first paragraph of the Discussion ("...that both that...").”

      Thanks, we have updated the manuscript accordingly.

      (9) Inconsistent terminology: use a single form (e.g., "normal-hearing") throughout.

      Good suggestion, thanks. We have updated all main manuscript to only use normal-hearing. We found and changed two instances in which we used the acronym NH in lieu of normal-hearing, once early in the results section and once in the legend for Figure 3.

      (10) In Figure 3D (temporal), there appears to be an extra data point for the NH-trained group.

      Thank you for flagging this mis-labeling, which Reviewer 3 also pointed out. We have switched the appropriate data point in Figure 3D from ‘trained’ to ‘naïve’.

      (11) In Figure 4D, the yellow line is not defined; based on Figure 6D, it likely represents shuffled/chance performance and should be labeled accordingly (including beneath the chance line on the plots).

      We have updated Figure 6 to indicate that the yellow line does indeed reflect shuffled/chance.

      (12) Figure 8 would benefit from a control demonstrating that poor cross-modal decoding reflects train-test distribution differences rather than weak decoders (e.g., train on a subsample of NH and test on held-out NH), and from reporting decoding on raw ERP/HG features in addition to TCA-derived data.

      Good suggestion, thanks; we have now added this control. We agree that a positive control is necessary to show that poor tone→CI decoding reflects differences of underlying representations rather than a failure of the decoder or modeling approach. (Reviewer 2 raised the same point.)

      To validate our cross‑modal analysis pipeline, we re‑implemented the full procedure used in Figure 8, but instead of training on tone‑evoked responses and testing on CI‑evoked responses, we trained and tested on independent sets of tone‑evoked trials from the same animals (tone→tone). For each tone in each animal, we withheld 10 trials as a test set. Using the remaining trials, we fit the original TCA model to obtain spatial and temporal factors (Fig. 8A). We then fixed these factors and re‑optimized only the trial factors on the withheld tone‑evoked trials (Fig. 8B). The LDA decoder was trained on the trial factors from the original TCA fit and tested on the re‑optimized trial factors from the withheld trials, using the same classification pipeline as in the main analysis.

      As shown in the top panels of Figure 8C,D, this positive control yielded robust tone→tone generalization: predicted tone frequencies closely matched the actual tones, decoder performance was significantly above chance, and prediction errors were tightly clustered around the true stimulus, indicating that the decoder was tuned to tone frequency. In contrast, when we trained on tone‑evoked responses and tested on CI‑evoked responses, information transfer was markedly reduced (Fig. 8E-G).

      These results demonstrate that the TCA+decoder pipeline can reliably transfer information across independent tone‑evoked datasets, confirming that the method captures shared structure when it exists. The poor cross‑modal transfer between tone‑ and CI‑evoked activity therefore is unlikely to be due to a weak decoder or to a failure of the modeling pipeline, but instead reflects a genuine mismatch between CI and sound representations in auditory cortex. We have updated Figure 8 and the Results section to describe this positive control analysis and clarify the interpretation.

      (13) Perception and interpretation of signals are mentioned several times in the introduction, although perception is not explored in the manuscript (only neuronal processing). This might be confusing.

      We appreciate the need to distinguish between neuronal encoding and perception. We also feel we have been careful not to invoke relationships to perception when presenting analyses on iEEG measurements, but we did identify an opportunity to further clarify this distinction between neuronal processing and perception by adding text in the intro, as follows “for the auditory system to interpret patterns of evoked neural activity and inform downstream auditory areas.”

      (14) Figure 1C. Why is the performance of CI rats so much lower than what was previously published (Glennon et al., 2023)? Did the training duration change?

      The three animals that were behaviorally trained on the normal-hearing (pre-deafening) and cochlear implant task (post-deafening) are within the distribution of the full set of animals from Glennon et al. (2023). However, we note that for Glennon et al. (2023), as one of our behavioral criterion was days to d’ > 1, animals were trained daily until reaching that level and not included in the initial data set if they did not reach that level. However, as we were including animals in this study of iEEG responses that were not trained at all, we felt it appropriate to include this third animal as well, that was trained just for 3 days before recordings were made. The two other animals were trained for 9 and 13 days. We have now included this information in the methods.

      (15) The p-values = 0.5 should be given with an additional digit.

      We previously rounded to the nearest single decimal digit, for all p-values greater than 0.10. We have updated the figures and manuscript text to ensure precision at least to the second digit.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      We thank the Reviewer for their thoughtful comments on our study.

      (1) Less noisy recording methods based on spike detection would provide stronger claims.

      We agree that spike recordings, particularly isolated single-unit activity, are powerful for testing hypotheses about sensory encoding in auditory cortex, and we plan to incorporate such approaches in future work. However, our decision to use iEEG arrays in the present study was deliberate and central to the scientific and translational goals of the project.

      First, iEEG and related population-level approaches such as scalp EEG (e.g., Lalor and Foxe, 2010; O’Sullivan et al., 2015) and fNIRS (e.g., Bortfeld et al., 2009; Peelle, 2017) are widely used in humans and have been highly successful in decoding sound- and speech-evoked responses, revealing fundamental principles of how sound and speech are encoded in the human brain. Because speech is uniquely human and cochlear implants are primarily designed to restore speech perception, aligning our recordings with clinically relevant, human-used modalities enhances the translational relevance of our work.

      Second, iEEG arrays provide distinct advantages over modern multi- and single-unit electrophysiology. Even with high-density probes, the spatial sampling of neuronal activity does not match the coverage of the 60-channel iEEG arrays used here, which span large extents of auditory cortex. One might instead consider optical methods such as calcium imaging to interrogate topographical encoding at single-neuron and mesoscale resolutions, as has been done in normal-hearing mice (Romero and Hight et al., 2019). However, calcium signals are intrinsically slow, limiting access to the temporal precision that is critical for CI encoding, and these tools are unlikely to be available in humans in the foreseeable future, substantially reducing their translational value.

      Using iEEG arrays, we show that CI-evoked responses are topographically organized, consistent with prior work (Klinke et al. 1999, Bierer and Middlebrooks 2002, Middlebrooks and Bierer 2002, including Adenis et al., 2024 now referenced in the manuscript). Our study extends these findings by exploiting simultaneous recordings across both spatial and temporal domains, which are essential for several key analyses (Figs. 3-8), including quantification of trial-by-trial variability, decoding of stimulus identity from single trials, and cross-modal comparisons between normal-hearing and CI-evoked iEEG responses.

      Thus, we believe that the strength of this study is due to, rather than in spite of, its use of iEEG arrays. This approach uniquely allows us to test hypotheses about CI encoding across cortical topography and time using a modality that is directly translatable to human research and clinical practice. In response to the reviewer’s concern, we have also (i) improved the statistical treatment of our data (by adopting linear mixed-effects models that incorporate both paired and unpaired observations), (ii) added additional positive controls (see response to comment #2), and (iii) collected new data that further validate our rodent CI model. Together, these additions strengthen the support for our conclusions while preserving the key advantages of the iEEG-based approach.

      (2) A positive control is necessary to claim the mismatch between CI and sound representations.

      We agree. We now have added a positive control specifically designed to validate our cross-modal analysis pipeline in our revised manuscript. As also suggested by Reviewer 1, the goal was to test whether our method can successfully transfer information when the training and test datasets are matched in modality (tone→tone), thereby ensuring that the observed failure of cross-modal transfer (tone→CI) is not an artifact of the analysis.

      To do this, we re-implemented the full pipeline used in Figure 8, but instead of training on tone-evoked responses and testing on CI-evoked responses, we trained and tested on independent sets of tone-evoked trials from the same animals. For each tone in each animal, we withheld 10 trials as a test set. Using the remaining trials, we fit the original TCA model to obtain spatial and temporal factors (Fig. 8A). We then fixed these factors and re-optimized only the trial factors on the withheld tone-evoked trials (Fig. 8B). The LDA decoder was trained on the trial factors from the original TCA fit and tested on the re-optimized trial factors from the withheld trials, using the same classification pipeline as elsewhere in the manuscript.

      As shown in the top panels of Figure 8C,D, this positive control yielded robust tone→tone generalization: predicted tone frequencies closely matched the actual tones, decoder performance was significantly above chance, and prediction errors were tightly clustered around the true stimulus, indicating that the decoder was tuned to tone frequency. In contrast, when we trained on tone-evoked responses and tested on CI-evoked responses, information transfer was markedly reduced and not different from shuffled controls (Fig. 8E-G).

      These results demonstrate that the TCA+decoder pipeline can reliably transfer information across independent tone-evoked datasets, confirming that the method captures shared structure when it exists. The poor cross-modal transfer between tone- and CI-evoked activity therefore cannot be attributed to a failure of the modeling pipeline but instead reflects a mismatch between CI and sound representations in auditory cortex. We have updated Figure 8, the methods, and the results section to include this new important analysis.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      We thank reviewer 3’s appreciation for study design and the appropriateness of analyses taken. We also appreciate the recognition of noteworthiness, specifically that stimulus identity can be decoded on a single-trial basis and of the potential benefit of using central decoders in clinical settings.

      (1a) Animal heterogeneity: It is difficult to keep track of the animals used in this study, and some received a different protocol of stimulation (sounds through the speech processor vs. direct stimulation) and were also trained in a behavioral task using different target stimuli (4kHz vs. 22.6kHz, also no mention of the CI electrode used as a target).

      We have now clarified the animal cohorts and stimulation protocols in our revised manuscript. We added a new Supplementary Figure 2 that schematizes, for each animal if it underwent behavioral training with pure tones in the normal-hearing condition, if tone-evoked iEEG measurements were collected, if CI-evoked iEEG measurements were collected (and whether stimulation was direct or via the speech processor), and if it subsequently received CI-based behavioral training. Regarding the behavioral targets, we now specify in the Methods that for normal-hearing training, the target stimulus was a 22.6-kHz pure tone. For CI-trained animals, the target was either CI channel 3 (n = 2 rats) or CI channel 4 (n = 1 rat). Details about stimuli targets during behavior have been added to the methods section under “Behavioral training for tone and implant channel detection.”

      (1b) There is no comparison of the CI maps from rats tested with the speech processor and directly stimulated. How different were they? Was the frequency allocation of each electrode the same for each animal? Since data might already have intrinsic variability because of the grid placement, the mechanical deafening, and the cochlear implantation in each animal, such heterogeneity in the 'background' and stimulation protocol might blur the authors' results.

      Our study focuses on cortical encoding of single-channel CI stimulation, so it is indeed important to ensure that the stimuli are effectively delivered by a single electrode, regardless of whether they are driven acoustically via the speech processor or by direct electrical stimulation.

      Stimulation mode and frequency allocation: The project began with single-channel stimulation achieved by presenting pure tones to the speech processor (N=3 animals) and later transitioned to direct programmatic control of individual electrodes (N=4 animals) to simplify the experimental setup. In both cases, the goal was to activate only one CI channel at a time.

      For the programming speech-processor animals, the validation protocol described in Glennon et al. (2023) is as follows:

      - Set the number of active channels in the processor to 1 (the clinical default is 8) to avoid spectral spread across electrodes.

      - Disabled all additional signal-processing strategies (e.g., Scan, ASC, ADRO, SNR-NR, WNR).

      - Used customized frequency allocation tables that mapped narrow frequency bands to individual electrodes, as shown in Glennon et al., 2023, Extended Data Fig. 2.

      To confirm that a given tone drove only the intended electrode, we recorded tone-evoked electrodograms—measurements of the output at each electrode—and verified that only the targeted channel was active (Glennon et al., 2023, Extended Data Fig. 2). Thus, although the initial CI drive was acoustic, the effective stimulation at the array was restricted to a single electrode with a well-defined frequency allocation.

      For the direct-stimulation animals, we used the same underlying frequency allocations to choose which electrode to stimulate, but the pulses were delivered programmatically rather than via the speech processor. In both modes, the center frequency associated with each electrode was therefore defined consistently across animals, and stimulation was confined to one channel at a time.

      Comparison of maps across stimulation modes: We now explicitly indicate the stimulation mode (speech-processor vs direct) for each CI animal in Supplementary Figure 2 and plot the maps for all animals in Supplementary Figure 3. Qualitatively, the spatial organization of CI-evoked maps is similar across the two stimulation strategies; we do not observe systematic differences in map structure that would suggest large biases introduced by the stimulation mode. However, the sample sizes for each group are small (N = 3 speech-processor, N = 4 direct). For this reason, we have not performed formal between-mode statistics and instead treat stimulation mode as a source of minor heterogeneity, alongside inevitable variability from grid placement, mechanical deafening, and cochlear insertion. Given the electrodogram validation (Glennon et al., 2023, Extended Data Fig. 2) and consistent frequency allocation tables, we are confident that both approaches produce single-channel activation with comparable effective frequency assignments.

      (1c) The number of animals used is also confusing. The authors report 7 NH and 7 CI animals (14 total), 4 NH and 3 CI were trained before being implanted (so 3 naïve NH and 4 naïve CI remain). Figure 1C reports that only 3 trained NH performed with the CI (let us call them 3 NH->CI). But then Figure 1E reports only 1 trained NH->CI and only 1 trained NH and 3 naïve NH that got implanted later. On the other hand, Figure 1E reports only 1 true naïve CI animal, the 3 others being naïve NH that got implanted. For the sake of clarity, I would encourage the authors to provide a timeline of the procedures/stimulation protocols coupled with a schematic distribution of the animals.

      To address this, we have added a new Supplementary Figure 2 that provides, for each individual animal a chronological timeline (NH recordings, deafening, implantation, CI recordings); if it was behaviorally trained in the NH condition, the CI condition, or both; if CI stimulation was delivered via the speech processor or by direct electrical stimulation; and which stimulus conditions (tone-evoked iEEG, CI-evoked iEEG) were collected. This schematic makes it clear how the reported totals arise (7 NH and 7 CI for iEEG; 4 NH-trained and 3 CI-trained behaviorally) and shows which specific animals contribute to each panel in Figure 1 and to the later iEEG analyses. We now reference Supplementary Figure 2 in the Results when introducing the cohorts to guide readers through animal accounting.

      (2a) Methods and statistics: Deafening is only mechanical, with no direct or postmortem proof that deafening was complete. The authors cite previous studies, but that would have been a good control to have since mechanical deafening isn't as accepted as the chemical deafening, like Neomycin, especially when some of your animals were stimulated with pure tones through the speech processor.”

      We agree that rigorous verification of deafening is essential, particularly when some CI animals are driven acoustically through the speech processor. Ototoxic approaches (e.g., systemic or local neomycin) are one established method, but their effectiveness can be sensitive to dose and delivery, and they introduce systemic side-effects that can complicate long-term survival and recovery.

      Our laboratory has used the mechanical deafening procedure since it was first described in King et al. (2016) and more recently in Glennon et al. (2023). In King et al., mechanical and ototoxic methods were combined, and we found that ototoxic methods provided no more additional robustness in deafening compared to mechanical lesion. Instead, the additional time required for ototoxic drug application reduced survival times in what was already a very complex and long surgical procedure for bilateral deafening and unilateral cochlear implantation.

      In Glennon et al. (2023) we intentionally employed mechanical-only deafening to minimize side-effects while still achieving profound hearing loss in implanted animals. Glennon et al. (2023) provides an extensive validation of this mechanical-only protocol under the same surgical and experimental conditions as the present study. As we mentioned in our response to comment #3a of Referee 1, we assessed deafness through three measures:

      Histology: In N=4 deafened animals, inner hair cell loss was ~50% and outer hair cell loss was near complete at almost 100% in all animals.

      Physiology: For N=14 rats, acoustic ABRs were substantial before deafening but statistically similar to baseline noise after deafening.

      Behavior: For N=16 deafened rats, behavioral performance with implant on was d′: 1.7±0.1, but when implant was turned off in a subset of sessions, performance dropped to chance (d′: −0.05±0.1, P < 0.0001).

      This convergent anatomical, physiological, and behavioral evidence demonstrates that the mechanical procedure produces profound deafness, with no functionally relevant residual hearing at levels ≥90 dB SPL. Also as we mentioned in response to comment #3a of Referee 1, we believe that the behavioral criterion is most essential and also least common in the literature. Because the tones used to drive the speech processor in the current study were presented at 70 dB SPL, we have no reason to believe that residual acoustic hearing contributed to any of the CI-evoked responses we report.

      We now cite these validation data explicitly in the methods under the section “Bilateral sensorineural hearing loss” as follows “(mechanical only, as described and validated in Glennon et al. 2023)” to make clear why we consider the mechanical-only approach sufficient for ensuring deafness in the present experiments.

      (2b) What motivated the selection of 15 Principal Components for the PCA? That might need to be justified, maybe by scree plot or variance plot (Eigen Values or CEV), as if too many PCs are selected, you are at risk of losing information. Side comment for TCA: why is it important that the number of latent factors exceeds the number of tones or stimuli? Is there a way to justify this statement?

      We thank the reviewer for raising this point. Our choice of 15 components/latent factors was motivated by both theoretical and empirical considerations, which are now made explicit in the manuscript.

      For the PCA analyses, we selected 15 principal components for two reasons. First, because our decoder must discriminate between 10 tone conditions, we reasoned that providing at least as many dimensions as stimuli would be beneficial, while also allowing for the possibility that some components may carry little or no stimulus-selective information. We therefore chose a modest number of components that exceeded the number of tones (10) but avoided unnecessarily high dimensionality. Second, we empirically examined the variance explained as a function of the number of components. As shown in the new scree plots (Supplemental Fig. 4A), the cumulative variance explained enters a near-linear, low-slope regime beyond ~15 PCs, indicating diminishing returns for including additional components. Thus, 15 PCs capture a substantial fraction of the stimulus-related variance while minimizing the risk of overfitting and retaining a consistent dimensionality across animals.

      For the TCA analyses, we used 15 latent factors to match the dimensionality used in PCA and to ensure that the latent space was sufficiently flexible to represent the 10 tone conditions without being under-parameterized. In practice, increasing the number of TCA components reduces reconstruction error (Williams et al., 2018), but with diminishing improvement beyond a certain point. We therefore systematically evaluated model error as a function of the number of latent factors and found that error decreased rapidly up to ~15 components and then plateaued (Supplemental Fig. 4B). This pattern parallels the PCA scree plots and supports 15 as a reasonable trade-off between model flexibility and parsimony.

      We have updated the Results clarify these choices, as follows “The number of components (15) was chosen based on PCA scree plots (Supplemental Fig. 4A), which showed that explained variance entered a near‑linear, low‑slope regime beyond this point demonstrating a similar plateau in reconstruction error (Supplemental Fig. 4B).”

      (2c) Legend of Figure 2E, J states that a Student's paired t-test was used, meaning that only the 'linked' points of the graph were used (thus, comparing only animals that got tested NH then implanted). This is usually the same across the manuscript. Why not include all the points with an unpaired t-test? Otherwise, why are all the points plotted if they serve no purpose? This choice should be justified.

      We agree with this concern, which was also raised by Reviewer 1. We have revised our statistical approach accordingly in our revised manuscript. In the original submission, we used paired t-tests when animals contributed both normal-hearing (NH) and CI data, which meant that animals with only NH or only CI measurements were excluded from those comparisons even though they were shown in the plots.

      To address this, we have re-analyzed all normal-hearing vs. CI comparisons using linear mixed-effects models that include both paired and unpaired data within a single framework. This approach ensures that every plotted data point contributes to the statistical tests, properly accounts for within-animal dependence when both conditions are present, and avoids the loss of power that would arise from either paired-only or purely unpaired tests.

      The mixed-effects results are consistent with our original interpretations, with two comparisons becoming significant in the updated analysis: Fig. 2E (p = 0.048) and Fig. 6F (p = 0.027). We have updated the Results and figure legends to describe the use of mixed-effects models and to report these revised p-values. Together with the new tonotopy and cochleotopy analyses described above, these changes strengthen the statistical support for our conclusions without altering the overall interpretation of the data.

      (2d) Side comment: There are inconsistencies on the bar plots of Figure 6C (Missing a purple point) and Figure 3D (Temporal has 3 purple points).

      Thank you for flagging this mis-labeling (which Reviewer 1 also noticed). We have correctly updated the appropriate data point from trained to naive for Fig. 3D and from naive to trained for Fig. 6C.

      (3a) Pure tones and CI-evoked responses maps: It is the reviewer's understanding that Figure 2 is an averaged representation for all animals. Why is the tonotopic shift so dim for ERPs? The averaged maps aren't very convincing. How were the gradients on an animal-to-animal basis since Figure 2D is only an example animal? Also, everything has been evaluated at 70dB, where selectivity might not be best. It would have been easier to follow the tonotopic gradient at the CFs where contrasts are higher.

      We agree that the strength and interpretation of tonotopy/cochleotopy in our iEEG data needed to be presented more clearly. Reviewer 1 raised closely related concerns, and we have substantially expanded the analyses and explanations in response. Here we highlight the points that address your specific questions.

      Single-animal vs. averaged maps: We included both exemplar maps and population summaries in Figure 2. The panels analogous to Figure 2D show single-animal best-frequency (BF) or best-channel maps; these were chosen because they exhibit clear, interpretable gradients. In the exemplar shown, there is a local high-frequency (HF) region along the medial edge of the array that transitions to lower frequencies toward the rostral edge. For CI-evoked best-channel maps in the same animal, we observe a parallel pattern in which basal electrodes (e.g., electrode 8, representing higher frequencies) occupy the HF region and apical electrodes (e.g., electrode 1, lower frequencies) occupy the LF region.

      Averaged ERP maps, by contrast, necessarily blur some of this structure because iEEG is a summed field potential and animal-to-animal differences in array placement, cochlear insertion depth, and anatomy introduce variability. We have softened the language in the text to reflect that ERP-based tonotopy is coarse and weaker at the population level, while emphasizing that robust gradients are evident in single animals and in HG-based measures.

      Quantitative assessment across animals: To move beyond visual impressions, we added quantitative analyses that mirror those used in Romero and Hight et al. (2020) for calcium imaging data (Romero and Hight et al. 2020 and Fig. 2). For each map we computed local tonotopic gradient vectors at every pixel and summarized their magnitude/direction on a unit circle, then compared the mean vector strength to shuffled maps. Applied to our BF and best-channel maps, this analysis shows that both are significantly more ordered than shuffled controls (p < 10<sup>-10</sup>), indicating that the maps are tonotopic/cochleotopic rather than random, despite the apparent dimness of the gradients in some averaged ERP plots. These new results are described in the revised manuscript and shown in Romero and Hight et al. 2020 and Fig. 2.

      Effect of intensity (70 dB SPL) and “dim” gradients: We agree that stimulus level influences the apparent sharpness of tonotopy. Higher intensities tend to broaden tuning and compress the dynamic range of BF maps. As we now discuss in more detail (adapted from our response to Reviewer 1), tones were presented at 70 dB SPL, so we expect maps to emphasize mid-frequency regions (around 8 kHz) and to show somewhat broader tuning than maps derived at threshold. For CI stimulation, we used ECAP thresholds to set intensity, which is effective in our preparation because animals can robustly discriminate individual electrodes and these electrodes evoke clear cortical activity (King et al., 2015; Glennon et al., 2023).

      In summary, we clarified which panels in Figure 2 show single-animal exemplars vs population summaries, added quantitative analyses demonstrating spatial correlations are greater for adjacent stimuli compared to far-apart stimuli, and expanded the discussion of how recording modality and stimulus level influence the visibility of tonotopic gradients. These changes are intended to make the evidence for tonotopy/cochleotopy in our iEEG data (and its limitations) more transparent.

      (3b) Since new experiments might not be available, it is the reviewer's suggestion to add a supplementary figure showing a couple of animal examples following the format of Figures 2A and 2C that have more contrasted gradients to strengthen the group data. In the case of the CI-evoked responses map, this might also provide another argument to dismiss the potential monopolar smearing.

      Good suggestion, thanks. We now include a new Supplementary Figure 3 that shows additional single-animal examples for both tone-evoked and CI-evoked maps, following the same format as Figure 2C.

      Regarding monopolar stimulation, we agree that monopolar configurations are expected to be less spatially specific than bipolar or multipolar modes because current returns to an extracochlear reference electrode, potentially broadening the spread of excitation. We nevertheless chose monopolar stimulation because it is the predominant clinical configuration in human CI users and therefore most relevant for translational purposes. We acquired ECAP measurements of peripheral (spatial and temporal) tuning via a forward masking paradigm and demonstrate that monopolar is effectively tuned (Supplemental Fig. 2). Together with additional single-animal maps in Supplementary Figure 3, together with our vector-strength analysis (Romero and Hight et al. 2020 and Fig. 2), demonstrate that even under acute monopolar stimulation we observe structured cochleotopic organization in cortex, rather than the fully smeared patterns one might expect if monopolar spread completely dominated.

      We also note that all CI-evoked iEEG measurements were made acutely, immediately after implantation and before any CI-based behavioral experience. It is possible that with longer-term use and plasticity, cortical cochleotopy could become sharper than what we observe here under acute conditions. In this sense, our data provide a conservative baseline showing that even at the earliest stages of CI use, monopolar stimulation already engages tonotopically selective regions of auditory cortex. A longitudinal comparison of acute versus chronic maps would be an interesting direction for future work but is beyond the scope of the current study.

      (3c) Side comments: The legends of Figures 2D and 2I should mention that this is an animal example and not group data, as the rest of the figures are group data.

      Thank you for this suggestion to improve figure clarity. We have updated all of our figures, where appropriate, to indicate whether data are single or groups of animals.

      (3d) In general, some of the legends should be revised because they are sometimes too "strong". As an example, Figure 3B, D legend states: "Variability of iEEG measurements across trials (root mean square, rms) was consistently higher for cochlear implant-evoked compared to tone-evoked activity", despite three of the statistical tests being non-significant. The manuscript is correct, on the other hand.

      Good point. We revised the legend for Figure 3 to be consistent with the figure and the manuscript.

      (3e) The example spatial map given in Figure 3A for CI might not be the best choice since it is showing a pretty reliable trial-by-trial response, while your group data proves the opposite.

      We understand the reviewer’s concern and agree that the exemplar CI map in Figure 3A appears relatively reliable on a trial-by-trial basis. This example was chosen deliberately from an animal in which we had both NH- and CI-evoked iEEG recordings, so that the reader could visually compare the two conditions within the same preparation. In this animal, as in the group data, the differences between NH and CI trial-by-trial responses are subtle rather than dramatic.

      Our group-level analysis shows that the RMS error across trials is consistently higher for CI-evoked than for NH-evoked responses, but the absolute differences are small (< 0.1) and relatively uniform across animals. The spatial maps plotted in Figure 3A are representative of this pattern: both conditions show reasonably robust evoked responses, with CI responses nonetheless showing slightly greater variability. To avoid implying a stronger qualitative difference than is supported by the data, we have revised the text to emphasize that (i) CI-evoked responses remain clearly detectable on single trials, and (ii) the key effect is a small but consistent increase in variability across animals, as captured by the RMS error metrics, “We noted that the differences were qualitatively subtle (Fig. 3A, right panel), they were consistent across animals (Fig. 3B).”

      (4a) Decoders for CI stimulation Regarding CI stimulation, Pearson's correlations were truncated at a spacing of 5 electrodes. Likewise, none of the LDA classifiers show prediction for channels past CI-6. Again, that choice should be justified, or the missing channels should be presented.

      We truncated the correlation between electrodes at 5 because beyond that, the estimated means are significantly noisy. These estimated means are noisy because the number of data are significantly reduced, also significantly increasing the standard error. For example, for the maximum stimulus spacing, the number of pairwise correlations is at maximum the number of animals tested (i.e., N=7). We believe it’s important to be transparent, so we have included the non-truncated version of the figure here in this public review (Author response image 3). We leave the figures in the manuscript untouched but have updated the Figure 2 legend justify this selection of data.

      Author response image 3.

      Expanded figures for spatial correlations and LDA performance. A) The same data from manuscript Figure 2 are re-plotted but with expanded x-axes to include up to 4.5 octaves and 7 channels. Due to the smaller numbers of data at these points, the estimates for the mean spatial correlations are noisier. In all cases, the mean correlations are significantly higher for the first data point compared to the last 3 (NH, ERP p<0.001; NH, HG p<0.001; CI, ERP p=0.005; and CI, HG p=0.39, linear mixed effects models). B) The same data from manuscript figure 4 are re-plotted but with expanded x-axes to include up to ±3.5 octaves and ±6 channels.

      (4b) Finally, retrained PCA-LDA on spatial-only and temporal-only for CI are absent in Figure 3D. Since the authors were pretty consistent in showing both NH and CI alongside in the rest of the paper, it would be coherent to add the CI counterpart to Figure 3D, or maybe with a supplementary figure.

      We agree that consistency can be improved by including classifiers for CI-evoked measurements, though presumably for Fig. 6C and not Fig. 3D. Figure 6 has been updated accordingly.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This valuable study explores the role of Pink1 in regulating mitochondria-organelle contacts and glial function, advancing our understanding of the mechanisms underlying neurodegenerative diseases. The findings highlight key genes and cellular processes that are critical in maintaining neuronal health, with implications for glial biology and Parkinson's disease research. The methodology and data are solid. This work will be of significant interest to researchers in neuroscience, cell biology, and neurodegenerative diseases.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study investigates the impact of Pink1 loss on glial function and neuronal health in a Drosophila model, highlighting the role of mitochondria-organelle contacts and key genes such as Ccz1, Vps13, Mon1, and Rab7. The work provides insights into cellular processes underlying neurodegenerative diseases, with a focus on glia-neuron interactions.

      Comments on revised version:

      I have reviewed the revised manuscript and the authors' responses to previous comments. The authors have addressed the key concerns raised by the reviewers, including validation of the Mz-GAL4 line and additional control experiments. The remaining issues caused by experimental constraints are understandable in this study.

      However, several concerns remain. Notably, some key results were removed due to the use of inadequately characterized fly lines, and the lack of follow-up experiments to address these issues raises concerns regarding the validity and reliability of the findings. Furthermore, the absence of experiments examining Rab7-mediated membrane trafficking or the interactions between mitochondria and lysosomes in the Pink1 mutant presents a limitation. These missing elements reduce the clarity and interpretability of Figure 5 for readers.

      On a positive note, the data showing that reducing Vps35/Vps13 enhances neuronal function and rescues Pink1 mutant phenotypes in ensheathing glia contributes meaningfully to the overall narrative.

      Despite these limitations, this research addresses an important question in neuroscience using the Drosophila model. It provides a novel perspective on Parkinson's disease and neurodegeneration by exploring mechanisms underlying Pink1 loss and suggesting a role for mitochondria-organelle interactions in ensheathing glia, potentially regulated via Vps35/Vps13-mediated pathways.

      Overall, the current version presents a clear and meaningful contribution to the field.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study proposes a novel role for ensheathing glia (EG) in a Pink1-model of Parkinson's disease and shows that this cell population exhibits the highest number of DEG in a pre-symptomatic stage. In the olfactory system, there seems to be morphological changes in this cell-type that resembles an 'activated' state and the authors further show that the neuronal loss of Pink1 is responsible for this defect. The authors go on to show that manipulation of Pink1 in EG also leads to some defects in the visual system and in the dopaminergic neurons (DAN) that innervate the mushroom body (MB), and performed a screen based on the 'on-transient' defect of the ERG to identify potential genes that may modulate the function of EG in synaptic regulation. They focus on several genes related to vesicle trafficking including Vps13, and Vps35 and performed some additional experiments in the visual system and MB to propose the role of vesicle/lipid trafficking in EG as an important factor for PD pathogenesis.

      Strengths:

      The study proposes functional and mechanistic connections between several genes that have been linked to PD (PINK1, VPS35 and VPS13A/C). I feel that the data presented in Figure 1-Figure 3C are performed with rigor and are convincing/novel. The selection of Drosophila to study the questions is also a strength and the lab has extensive experiences in this field and model organism.

      Weaknesses:

      In this revised manuscript, a number of concerns raised by this and the other reviewer was addressed. The authors now admitted that some of the genetic reagents used in their screen and follow up assays were inappropriately utilized, and changed the latter half of the paper (Fig 3D-F4) quite significantly (e.g. now only 1 gene is considered as a hit in Fig3D, analysis of several genes in Fig4 have been removed and replaced by some experiments performed on Vps35). The transition between Figure 3D and Figure 4 is quite abrupt, and they don't seem to follow up on the CG17660 (the single hit from their screen, which is not further validated so it is not clear whether this genetic reagent is clean or not) and the effect of Vps35 RNAi in synaptic phenotype. Therefore, there is still a weakness in Figure 3D-Figure 4, which weakens the paper, especially since the new model diagram the authors provided in Figure 5 is not really investigated at the molecular level.

    4. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study investigates the impact of Pink1 loss on glial function and neuronal health in a Drosophila model, highlighting the role of mitochondria-organelle contacts and key genes such as Ccz1, Vps13, Mon1, and Rab7. The work provides insights into cellular processes underlying neurodegenerative diseases, with a focus on glia-neuron interactions. While the findings are promising, the study lacks critical controls, detailed mechanistic evidence, and explanatory figures to strengthen its claims.

      Strengths:

      (1) The study addresses an important topic in neuroscience, exploring the mechanisms of Pink1 loss, which has implications for Parkinson's disease and neurodegeneration.

      (2) The focus on mitochondria-organelle contacts and their regulation by Rab7-mediated pathways is novel and provides a potential mechanism for neuronal dysfunction.

      (3) The identification of key genes (Ccz1, Vps13, Mon1, Rab7) and their potential roles in Pink1-related pathways adds valuable knowledge to the field.

      (4) The manuscript uses a combination of genetic tools, Drosophila models, and functional assays to approach the problem from multiple angles.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Specificity of Mz-Gal4: The study lacks validation of Mz-Gal4 specificity, as it may also drive expression in a few neurons or other types of glia. Additional control experiments using nls-GFP with Elav, Repo, or Draper antibody staining or alternative glial drivers would be helpful.

      We have addressed this issue of Gal4 driver specificity based on new experiments in the revised manuscript.

      (2) DLG staining is central to the story but is not well-supported by high-resolution Z-stack imaging, which should be included in the supplementary figures.

      We have included these in the supplement.

      (3) The manuscript does not confirm whether the candidate RNAi (Ccz1, Vps13, Mon1, Rab7) directly influence Rab7-mediated membrane trafficking or mitochondria-lysosome contacts in Pink1 mutants.

      This is indeed the case. These more mechanistic experiments were not yet performed.

      (4) Using ERG as a readout for EG effects in the antenna is not a direct or appropriate assay. Alternative functional assays relevant to antenna glia should be considered.

      We made the assumption that ensheating glial function is conserved across brain regions and now make this explicit in the reworded manuscript.

      (5) A graphical explanation of the interactions and functions of the candidate genes in Pink1 KO mutants is missing. This would greatly enhance the manuscript's clarity.

      We have included such a scheme in the new manuscript.

      (6) The study lacks details on sample sizes, effect sizes, and reproducibility, which are necessary for robust conclusions.

      We have included these essential data in the reworked document.

      (7) There are repeated words on page 3 ("olfactory Olfactory Receptor Neurons") and a lack of explanation in Figure 3C regarding the most up-regulated and down-regulated genes and the significance of large red dots.

      We have included the requested information.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study proposes a novel role for ensheathing glia (EG) in a Pink1-model of Parkinson's disease and shows that this cell population exibits the highest number of DEG in a pre-symptomatic stage. In the olfactory system, there seems to be morphological changes in this cell-type that resembles an 'activated' state and the authors further show that the neuronal loss of Pink1 is responsible for this defect. The authors go on to show that manipulation of Pink1 in EG also leads to some defects in the visual system and in the dopaminergic neurons (DAN) that innervate the mushroom body (MB), and performed a screen based on the 'on-transient' defect of the ERG to identify potential genes that may modulate the function of EG in synaptic regulation. They focus on several genes related to Rab7/Vps13, and performed some additional experiments in the visual system and MB to propose the role of vesicle/lipid trafficking in EG as a important factor for PD pathogenesis.

      Strengths:

      The study proposes functional and mechanistic connections between several genes that have been linked to PD (PINK1, VPS13A/C). I feel that the data presented in Figure 1 and Fig3A-C are performed with rigor and are convincing/novel. The selection of Drosophila to study the questions is also a strength and the lab has extensive experiences in this field and model organism.

      Weaknesses:

      There is one fundamental concern I have with the genetic experiments performed in this paper (especially in Fig 3D and Fig4, see major issue #1), and I feel that there is a bit of a disconnect between the EG 'activation' phenotype the author show in the olfactory system and the other two neuronal systems (visual system, MB DAN) that the authors investigate see major issue #2). Also, there are quite a bit of information that is not provided in the manuscript (see major issues #3 and #4), which makes me difficult to judge the rigor and interpretation of several experiments.

      Major Concern #1: A number of lines used in this study are referred to as "RNAi" lines but when I look at the actual genotypes of reagents listed in the table in the METHODS section, many are actually NOT RNAi lines. Quite a few lines, including lines that the authors use as RNAi against Ccz1, Rab7 and Mon1, are gRNA lines for the TKO (TRiP-CRISPR knockout) system. While these reagents can theoretically knock-out these genes in somatic cells if used in combination with UAS-Cas9, there is no mention that UAS-Cas9 was used in this work throughout the manuscript. Hence, when these lines are just crossed to GAL4 with or without the Pink1 mutant, they shouldn't be having any effects. Similarly, the strongest hit from their screen was a TOE (TRiP-CRISPR Over Expression) gRNA against PIG-A, which could allow overexpression of PIG-A if there is a UAS-dCas9::VP64. However, I also do not see any mention that such activator was introduced into the crossing scheme. Considering that 3 of the 4 'hits' from their screen are not RNAi lines, I am quite skeptical of the study. Similarly, except for Vps13, all reagents used in Fig4 are TKO gRNA lines. Therefore, if this experiment was conducted without an UAS-Cas9, most of the data shown here are problematic. Also, note that several of the 'RNAi' lines listed in the Table in the METHODS section are actually MiMIC alleles. While some MiMIC lines could function as strong LOF alleles (if they are inserted in the exon or in an intron of the gene in the same orientation as the gene), some of the lines are not expected to affect gene function (e.g. FASN2 and CG17712, MiMICs are in introns and face the opposite orientation). Hence, the rationale of including these reagents in the screen doesn't make much sense. The description of the modifier screen should be much more detailed in the RESULTS and METHODS section and if the UAS-Cas9/dCas9::VP64 transgenes were not introduced when the TKO/TOE reagents were utilized, what can be concluded?

      In addition, for the 4 genes that the authors further study in Fig4, there are many other reagents that the authors can use, including mutant alleles, previously characterized RNAi lines (e.g. Vps13) and dominant negative/constitute active lines (e.g. especially for Rab7). The authors should validate their results with independent reagents to really convincingly show that the same conclusions can be drawn for the Vps13/Rab7 related genes since this is the key takeaway message of this paper.

      Also, they do not show whether the manipulation of these genes in a wild-type background (they only show what happens in Pink1 mutants) affect ERG and MB DAN synapse morphology. If these manipulations alone dramatically affect these phenotypes, it would be very difficult to interpret their data.

      We sincerely thank the reviewer for spotting this major oversight regarding the use of the TKO (TRiP-CRISPR knockout) and TOE (TRiP-CRISPR Over Expression) systems and the MiMIC alleles. As the reviewer pointed out, these lines were not used as intended, therefore our results and conclusions regarding the genetic interactions between Pink1 and several genes (PIG-A, Rab7, Ccz1, CG10646, Mon1, FASN2, CG17712), are incorrect and based on a technical mistake. These results were removed from the manuscript. While our mistake compromises the data regarding PIG-A, Rab7, Ccz1, CG10646, Mon1, FASN2, CG17712, it does not affect the results and conclusions for most of the genes of the screening and for Vps13 where we did use RNAi lines.

      Also, in the reworked manuscript, we provide additional evidence that modulation of vesicle trafficking proteins involved in mitochondria–endoplasmic reticulum (ER) membrane interactions, such as Vps13 and Vps35, influences neuronal function and rescues Pink1 mutant phenotypes when selectively downregulated in EG.

      Major Concern #2: In Figure 1, the authors show some morphological evidence that EG are 'activated' in Pink1 mutants, but whether the same phenomenon occurs in the visual system and in the MB is not shown. Since all of the studies in Fig3D and Fig4 are done in the visual system and MB, it is not clear whether the visual system and MB phenotypes are related to 'activation' of EG.

      Also, in the RNA-seq data in Fig1A and Fig3C, is there any molecular evidence that EG are indeed 'activated'? The only evidence that the authors show to state that EG are 'activated' in young Pink1 null animals is based on increased CD8::GFP staining in the olfactory system.

      The authors cannot draw a strong conclusion that indeed EG are 'activated' based on these data (e.g. perhaps the expression level of CD8::GFP is just increased). Additional evidence that the EG are 'activated' could be provided by looking at the increase in Draper intensity (as reported by Doherty et al. and MacDonald et al. that the authors cite), not only in the olfactory system, but also in the visual system and in the MB. It would also be informative if the authors can look at morphology of the EG in the visual system and MB to convincingly that the data shown in Fig4 is relevant to EG 'activation'.

      In line with the identification of DEG across the ensheating glia cluster in our single cell sequencing (where we did not distinguish between EG of different brain regions) we made the assumption that EG-(dys) function is consistent in the Pink1 mutant and conserved across brain regions. Nonetheless, to make clear that we did not consistently analyze EG morphology in the different brain regions that we probed in functional assays, we added a note in the manuscript. Furthermore, we also toned down our conclusion that the EG in Pink1 mutants are in an activated state: we note the similarity in phenotype in Pink1 mutants and situations of neuronal damage (where EG are activated) but added that the phenotype in Pink1 mutants may also be the result of the mere upregulation of GFP expression/fluorescence.

      Major Concern #3: In Fig3, there is no clear explanation why they focus on the ON transients and ignore the OFF transients, and also why the difference in the depolarization is not quantified in Fig4.

      We included this explanation in the reworked manuscript: In the Drosophila ERG, the sustained depolarization primarily reflects phototransduction in photoreceptors (and is defective when photoreceptors degenerate), whereas the ON and OFF transients arise from second-order lamina neurons and are widely used as readouts of signal transfer. We wanted to assess function and focused on the ON transient because in general it provides an onset-locked, more robust readout of function (Vilinsky & Johnson, 2012).

      Major Concern #4: While the authors claim that mz709-GAL4 is a EG specific driver, do the authors know that this is indeed true in the tissues and stages that are studied here? The Ito et al,. paper that is cited in the METHOD section has only looked at the expression of this reporter in embryonic and larval stages. The authors need to that the authors should validate their findings with an additional EG specific driver and/or provide additional data that mz709-GAL4 is indeed specific to EG in the adult fly brain and eye. If mz709-GAL4 is expressed in other cell-types, the interpretation of many of the data in this paper becomes quite questionable. I believe the data in Fig3B is suggesting that mz709-GAL4 is indeed specific to glia cells and not expressed in neurons, but whether this driver is truly specific to EG (and not in other glial types), especially in the visual system (including the lamina as well as in the eye), is not obvious.

      We labelled animals that express UAS-HisTag-eGFP (used also in our paper) under control of MZ709-Gal4 with anti-Elav (a neuronal marker) and find no significant overlap (see below “recommendation for authors”), consistent with MZ709-Gal4 not driving expression in neurons. This is consistent with previous published work: Indeed, MZ709-Gal4 has been amply used in adult flies and shown to be ensheating glia-specific (Doherty et al., 2009; Li et al., 2023; Sehgal et al.,2018). In the lamina neuropil of the Drosophila eye, MZ709-Gal4 is expressed in the marginal glia (Stenesen et al., 2019) which are neuropil-associated glia and are equivalent to generic ensheathing glia (Kremer et al., 2017). MZ709-Gal4 is also expressed also in satellite glia (Stenesen et al., 2019), but these glia enwrap the cell bodies of the lamina neurons and not the neuropil where synapses reside.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewing Editor Comments:

      We strongly encourage you to very carefully edit this manuscript. The reviewers made many probing comments that you should consider carefully.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Validate the specificity of Mz-Gal4 by performing experiments with nls-GFP and Elav antibody staining to ensure there is no neuronal overlap. Additionally, consider using alternative glial-specific drivers, such as Repo-Gal4 or WG-Gal4, to confirm the findings.

      We expressed HisTag-eGFP (used also in our paper) under control of MZ709-Gal4 and labelled fly brains with anti-Elav (a neuronal marker). We do not observe significant overlap between the labels indicating MZ709-Gal4 does not express Gal4 in neurons (Supplementary figure 1).

      As indicated, these observations are consistent with previous published work. MZ709-Gal4 has been amply used in adult flies and shown to be ensheating glia-specific (Doherty et al., 2009; Li et al., 2023; Sehgal et al., 2018; Stahl et al., 2018). In the lamina neuropil of the Drosophila eye, MZ709-Gal4 is expressed in the marginal glia (Stenesen et al., 2019) which are neuropil-associated glia and are equivalent to generic ensheathing glia (Kremer et al., 2017). MZ709-Gal4 is also expressed also in satellite glia (Stenesen et al., 2019), but these glia enwrap the cell bodies of the lamina neurons and not the neuropil where synapses reside.

      (2) Include high-resolution Z-stack imaging of DLG staining to strengthen the assessment of synaptic integrity and ensure the robustness of the conclusions. These images should be added to either the main or supplementary figures.

      We included 2 supplementary figures (2 and 3) showing Z stacks that were used to delineate regions of interest at the MBs for the quantification of dopaminergic neuron afferents invasion. Our approach is identical to the one we used in Kaempf et al. 2026 (Kaempf et al., 2026).

      (3) Demonstrate whether the candidate RNAi (Ccz1, Vps13, Mon1, Rab7) directly influence Rab7-mediated membrane trafficking or mitochondria-lysosome contacts in Pink1 mutants. Use an appropriate method to confirm changes in organelle contacts in response to the RNAi treatments.

      Ccz1, Mon1 and Rab 7 were removed due to the technical mistake we made. We did confirm and maintain that Vps35 and Vps13 downregulation in EG rescues neuronal defects in Pink1 mutants. In the reworked manuscript we present a possible mechanism that involves the role of Vps35 and Vps13 in regulating ER-mitochondrial contacts, in line with our previous work (Valadas et al., 2018), while not ruling out possible other mechanisms.

      (4) Provide an alternative functional assay or evidence to support the use of ERG as a readout for EG effects in the antenna. Consider using a more direct assay relevant to antenna glia function.

      We agree that a more direct functional assay of antennal glia would be a nice addition (e.g., single-sensillum recordings or glial/ORN Ca<sup>2+</sup> imaging). However, implementing such assays would require new experimental pipelines and substantial additional data generation that is beyond our current ability and the scope of this revision.

      (5) Add a graphical illustration explaining the proposed mechanism of how Ccz1, Vps13, Mon1, and Rab7 function in Pink1 KO mutants, highlighting their interactions and roles within specific cell types.

      We included a schematic of our working model in Figure 5.

      (6) Clarify Figure 3C by explaining the most up-regulated and down-regulated genes and the significance of the large red dots. This will enhance the interpretability of the data.

      We expanded the legend to this figure: The large red dots represent the genes that rescue Pink1<sup>KO-WS</sup> phenotype when downregulated, the dark green dots are the 50 top most deregulated genes (magnitude of deregulation) in EG in Pink1<sup>KO-WS</sup> compared to controls, while the light green dots represent whole the genes detected in our cell-type specific transcriptomic experiment.

      (7) Correct repeated words on page 3 ("olfactory Olfactory Receptor Neurons") for clarity and consistency.

      Of course, sorry for this.

      (8) Ensure that sample sizes, effect sizes, and the number of replicates are explicitly stated for all experiments. This information is essential for evaluating the robustness and reproducibility of the findings.

      We made sure we consistently added all this information in the revised manuscript.

      (9) Verify and ensure that all data, reagents, and code used in the study are accessible and appropriately documented, in adherence with eLife's publishing policies.

      We made sure all data, reagents and code are available and/or properly described.

      By addressing these recommendations, the authors will significantly improve the clarity, rigor, and reproducibility of the manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Minor Points.

      (1) All figures seem to lack titles.

      We fixed this error.

      (2) In the abstract, the authors say that Rab7 and Vps13 are mutated in PD patients but I couldn't find the reference/information for Rab7 (the authors do refer to papers that linked VPS13A/C variants to PD but no mention about RAB7A/B being linked to PD). Please discuss this in the paper or modify the abstract accordingly.

      We removed this statement for rab7 from the paper.

      (3) When referring to the human gene, Pink1 should be written as PINK1 according to the HGNC nomenclature rules.

      We made this change.

      (4) The authors say Vps13 has two mammalian orthologs but actually it has four (VPS13A/B/C/D). I guess two of the four is linked to PD so the authors should modify there statement to reflect this.

      This is a misinterpretation of what we meant and we have clarified our intention: Drosophila possesses 3 paralogues of Vps13 - Vps13, Vps13B, and Vps13D - which we also detected in our screening (Neuman et al., 2025; Velayos-Baeza et al., 2004; Vonk et al., 2017). Among these Vps13 is most similar to human VPS13A and VPS13C (Hanna et al., 2023; McEwan & Ryan, 2022).

      (5) The abbreviation 'CNS' is used in the first page of the intro but I don't see it being spelled out as "central nervous system".

      We have spelled out central nervous system in the first page of the introduction.

      (6) On the top of page 5, the authors state that they confirmed that the 'synaptic area of DAN show a decrease in aged (25 days) animals' but data is not shown. If they want to make a statement like this, I believe such data should be included in supplemental data. Since the phenotype in the aged animal is not relevant to this study, one could remove this statement regarding the aged animals if they prefer not to show the data.

      The decreased synaptic area of DAN in 25-day old Pink1 mutants is shown in figure 2C-D of the manuscript and is consistent with data shown in (Kaempf et al., 2026).

    1. eLife Assessment

      This important study reveals intriguing connections between chromosome breakage and DNA elimination during programmed genome rearrangement in the ciliate Tetrahymena thermophila. By developing a novel FISH approach that distinguishes germline and somatic telomeres, the authors provide compelling evidence that chromosome breakage removes germline telomeres along with hundreds of kilobases of germline-limited sequences. By disrupting a single chromosome breakage site, they further showed that DNA elimination was globally affected, which opens up a new direction for mechanistic studies. Thus, this work reveals additional similarity between the programmed DNA elimination in ciliates and nematodes that underlies the transition from germline to somatic telomeres.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study entitled "Linking Germline Telomere Removal to Global Programmed DNA Elimination in Tetrahymena Genome Differentiation" Nagao and colleagues examine the fate of germline chromosome ends during somatic genome differentiation in the ciliate Tetrahymena thermophila. During sexual reproduction, a new somatic genome is created from a zygotic, germline-derived genome by extensive programmed DNA elimination events. It has been known for some time that the terminii of the germline chromosomes are eliminated, but the exact process and kinetics of the elimination events has not been thoroughly investigated. The authors first use germline-specific telomere probes to show that the loss of these chromosome ends occurs with similar timing as other DNA elimination events. By comparative analysis of the assembled germline and somatic genomes, the authors find the ends of each of the germline chromosomes are composed of few hundred kilobases of micronuclear limited sequences (MLS) that are removed starting around 14 hours after the start of conjugation, which initiates sexual development. They then develop an in-situ hybridization assay to track the fate of one end of chromosome 4 while simultaneously following the adjacent macronuclear destined sequence (MDS) retained in the new somatic genome. This allows the authors to more clearly show that these adjacent chromosomal segments are initially amplified in the developing genome before the terminal MLS is eliminated. Finally, they mutate the chromosome breakage sequence (CBS) that normally separates the MLS terminus from the adjacent MDS region as show that strains that develop with only one mutant chromosome can produce viable sexual progeny, but it appears that both the MLS and the MDS from the mutant chromosome are lost. If both chromosome copies have the CBS mutation, the cells arrest during development and do not eliminate many germline limited sequences and fail to produce viable progeny. Overall, this study provides many new insights into the fate of germline chromosome ends during somatic genome remodeling and suggests extensive coordination of different DNA elimination events in Tetrahymena.

      Strengths:

      Overall, the experiments were well executed with appropriate controls. The findings are generally robust. Importantly, the study provides several novel findings. First, the authors provide a fairly comprehensive characterization of the size of the MLS at the end of each germline chromosome. They also report on the highly repetitive composition of these chromosome terminii. Second, the authors develop a novel method to study the fate of chromosome terminii during development and use it conclusively track the elimination of these terminii. Third, the authors show that the elimination of these terminii appears to occur concurrently with most other DNA elimination events during somatic genome differentiation. And fourth, the authors show that failure to separate these eliminated sequences from the normally retained chromosome alters the fate of these adjacent MDS and loss of the cells ability to produce viable progeny. The authors initially hypothesized that DNA elimination may be blocked due to inappropriate silencing of genes in the MDS region when the CBS is mutant, but gene expression analysis showed that this is not the case.

      Weaknesses:

      After revising the manuscript based on the initial reviewers' critique, most weaknesses have been addressed. On weakness remaining is that since the authors only mutated the end of one germline chromosome, it is not clear whether the elimination of the MDS adjacent to the terminal MLS on chromosome 4 when the CBS is mutated is a general phenomenon, i.e. would happen at all chromosome ends, or is unique to the situation at Chromosome 4R. Knowing whether it is a general phenomenon or not would provide important insight into the authors findings. The authors did attempt to look at other chromosome ends, but technical limitations currently stymie this effort.

      The other weakness is that it remains unclear how failure to carry out DNA elimination appears to induce a checkpoint during development, but this open question is not unique to this study.

      Comments on revised version.

      The authors have significantly improved the study. The addition of the RNA-seq analysis allowed these researchers to show that their initial hypothesis - that loss of a CBS leads to inappropriate gene silencing in the neighboring MDS region - appears not to be the case. I do not have further suggestions for the authors.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Mochizuki and colleagues investigated how the germline (MIC) telomere was removed during programmed genome rearrangement in the developing somatic nucleus (MAC). Using an optimized oligo-FISH procedure, the authors demonstrated that MIC telomeres were co-eliminated with a large region of MIC-limited sequences (MLS) demarcated on the opposite side by a sub-telomeric chromosome breakage site (CBS). This conclusion was corroborated by the latest assembly of the Tetrahymena MIC genome. They further employed CRISPR-Cas9 mutagenesis to disrupt a specific sub-telomeric CBS (4R-CBS). In the uniparental progeny (mutant X WT), DNA elimination of the sub-telomeric MLS was not affected, but the adjacent MAC-destined sequence (MDS) may be co-eliminated. However, in the biparental progeny (mutant X mutant), global DNA elimination was arrested, revealing previously unrecognized connections between chromosome breakage and DNA elimination. It also paves the way for future studies into the underlying molecular mechanisms. The work is rigorous, well-controlled, and offers important insights into how eukaryotic genomes demarcate genic regions (retained DNA) and regions derived from transposable element (TE; eliminated DNA) during differentiation. The identification of chromosome breakage sequences as a critical architectural element of the genome separating TE-derived regions from functional genes is a key conceptual contribution.

      Strengths:

      New method development: Oligo-FISH in Tetrahymena. This allows high-resolution visualization of critical genome rearrangement events during MIC-to-MAC differentiation. This method will be a very powerful tool in this area of study.

      The conclusion is strongly supported by integrated analyses of PCR-based assays, as well as cytological, genomic, and transcriptomic data.

      Rigorous genetic analysis of the role played by 4R-CBS in separating the fate of sub-telomeric MLS (elimination) and MDS (retention).

    4. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Programmed DNA elimination (PDE) is a process that removes a substantial amount of genomic DNA during development. While it contradicts the genome constancy rule, an increasing number of organisms have been found to undergo PDE, indicating its potential biological function. Single-cell ciliates have been used as a prominent model system for studying PDE, providing important mechanistic insights into this process. Many of those studies have focused on the excision of internally eliminated sequences (IES) and the subsequent repair using non-homologous end joining (NHEJ). These studies have led to the identification of small RNAs that mark retained or eliminated regions and the transposons that generate double-strand breaks.

      In this manuscript, Nagao and Mochizuki examined the other type of breaks in ciliates that are healed with telomere addition. They specifically focused on the sequences at the ends of the germline (MIC) chromosomes, which have received relatively less attention due to the technical challenges associated with the highly repetitive nature of the sequences. The authors used the Tetrahymena model and developed a set of new tools. They used a novel FISH strategy that enables the distinction between germline and somatic telomeres, as well as the retained and eliminated DNA near the chromosome ends. This allows them to track these sequences at the cellular level throughout the development process, where PDE occurs. They also analyzed the more comprehensive germline and somatic genomes and determined at the sequence level the loss of subtelomeric and telomere sequences at all chromosome ends. Their result is reminiscent of the PDE observed in nematodes, where all germline chromosome ends are removed and remodeled. Thus, the finding connects two independent PDE systems, a protozoan and a metazoan, and suggests the convergent evolution of chromosome end removal and remodeling in PDE.

      The majority of sites (8/10) at the junctions of retained and eliminated DNA at the chromosome ends contain a chromosome breakage sequence (CBS). The authors created a set of mutants that modify the CBS at the ends of chromosome 4R. CBS regions are challenging for CRISPR due to their AT-rich sequences, making the creation of the 4R-CBS mutants a significant breakthrough. They used the FISH assay to determine if PDE still occurs in these mutant strains with compromised CBS. Surprisingly, they found that instead of blocking PDE, its adjacent retained DNA is now eliminated, suggesting a co-elimination event when the breakage is impaired. Furthermore, in biparental mutant crosses, no PDE occurred, and no viable progeny were produced, indicating that the removal of chromosome ends is crucial for proper PDE and sexual progeny development. Overall, the work demonstrates a critical role for 4R-CBS in separating retained and eliminated DNA.

    5. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      (1) We bioinformatically examined the repeat compositions of MLSs (Figure 3B), which clearly indicated that all MLSs are composed of repetitive sequences to a much greater extent than the rest of the genome.

      (2) We confirmed the blockage of chromosome breakage by the 4R-CBS mutations using a telomere-anchored PCR assay (Figure 5C-E).

      (3) We examined the effect of the 4R-CBS mutations on the expression of genes encoded in 4R-MDS by RNA-seq (Figure 9). This analysis unexpectedly revealed that gene expression from 4R-MDS is not significantly affected in the mutants, allowing us to extend our discussion.

      (4) We added two authors, Alix Lemoine and Tomoko Noto, who performed the experiments for these revisions.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, Nagao and Mochizuki examine the fate of germline chromosome ends during somatic genome differentiation in the ciliate Tetrahymena thermophila. During sexual reproduction, a new somatic genome is created from a zygotic, germline-derived genome by extensive programmed DNA elimination events. It has been known for some time that the termini of the germline chromosomes are eliminated, but the exact process and kinetics of the elimination events have not been thoroughly investigated. The authors first use germline-specific telomere probes to show that the loss of these chromosome ends occurs with similar timing as other DNA elimination events. By comparative analysis of the assembled germline and somatic genomes, the authors find that the ends of each of the germline chromosomes are composed of a few hundred kilobases of micronuclear limited sequences (MLS) that are removed starting around 14 hours after the start of conjugation, which initiates sexual development. They then develop an in situ hybridization assay to track the fate of one end of chromosome 4 while simultaneously following the adjacent macronuclear destined sequence (MDS) retained in the new somatic genome. This allows the authors to more clearly show that these adjacent chromosomal segments are initially amplified in the developing genome before the terminal MLS is eliminated. Finally, they mutate the chromosome breakage sequence (CBS) that normally separates the MLS terminus from the adjacent MDS region, to show that strains that develop with only one mutant chromosome can produce viable sexual progeny, but it appears that both the MLS and the MDS from the mutant chromosome are lost. If both chromosome copies have the CBS mutation, the cells arrest during development and do not eliminate many germline-limited sequences and fail to produce viable progeny. Overall, this study provides many new insights into the fate of germline chromosome ends during somatic genome remodeling and suggests extensive coordination of different DNA elimination events in Tetrahymena.

      Strengths:

      Overall, the experiments were well executed with appropriate controls. The findings are generally robust. Importantly, the study provides several novel findings. First, the authors provide a fairly comprehensive characterization of the size of the MLS at the end of each germline chromosome. I'm not sure whether this has been published elsewhere. Second, the authors develop a novel method to study the fate of chromosome termini during development and use it to conclusively track the elimination of these termini. Third, the authors show that the elimination of these termini appears to occur concurrently with most other DNA elimination events during somatic genome differentiation. And fourth, the authors show that failure to separate these eliminated sequences from the normally retained chromosome alters the fate of these adjacent MDS and the loss of the cells' ability to produce viable progeny.

      Weaknesses:

      It appears the authors did extensive analysis of the MLS chromosome ends, but did not provide too much information related to their composition. If this has not been published elsewhere, it would be useful to describe the proportion of unique and repetitive sequences and provide more information about the general composition of the chromosome ends. Such information would help the reader understand the nature of these MLS and how they may or may not differ from other eliminated sequences.

      We now calculated the proportions of unique and repetitive sequences for each MLS, and these data are included in Figure 3B and described in the main text of the revised manuscript. A more comprehensive analysis of chromosome-end composition, including detailed characterization in the context of the complete MIC genome assembly, is beyond the scope of the current study and will be presented in a future publication.

      Although the development of the novel FISH probes for large chromosome ends allowed for these novel discoveries, the signal in several images was visible, but often quite faint. I'm not sure there is anything the authors could do to improve the signal-to-noise ratio, but one needs to stare at the images carefully to understand the findings.

      We have submitted higher-resolution images for the revised manuscript, which we believe much improve the visibility of faint signals.

      One main weakness in the opinion of this reviewer is that the authors did very little to understand why, when a terminal MLS and the adjacent MDS fail to get separated because of failure in chromosome breakage, both segments are eliminated. The authors propose that possibly essential genes in the MDS get silenced, and the resulting lack of gene expression is the issue, but this and other possibilities were not tested. The study would provide more mechanistic insight if they had tried to assess whether the MDS on the CBS mutant chromosome becomes enriched in silencing modifications (e.g., H3K9me3). Alternatively, the authors could have examined changes in gene expression for some of the loci on the neighbouring MDS.

      The 4R-CBS mutation causes two distinct defects that should be considered separately: (1) co-elimination of 4R-MLS and the adjacent 4R-MDS during uniparental transmission of the 4R-CBS mutation; and (2) a global block of DNA elimination during biparental transmission of the 4R-CBS mutation.

      For the first defect, 4R-MLS and 4R-MDS may simply co-segregate into the nuclear compartment where DNA elimination occurs when the chromosome break that normally separates 4R-MLS from 4R-MDS is blocked. In this scenario, no additional process, such as spreading of scnRNA production, heterochromatin formation, or gene silencing, would be required to induce co-elimination. This point was not clearly stated in the previous manuscript, and we have now added a discussion of it to the revised manuscript.

      The possibility of gene silencing within 4R-MDS was raised as a potential explanation for the second defect. To test this possibility, we performed RNA-seq analysis of wild-type and 4R-CBS mutant cells to determine whether gene expression from 4R-MDS is affected by mutations at 4R-CBS. Contrary to our expectations, we found that genes in 4R-MDS are not significantly down-regulated in 4R-CBS mutant cells compared with other genes. This result suggests that the DNA elimination defect in these cells cannot be explained by silencing of genes located within 4R-MDS. We have added these RNA-seq data to Figure 9 and described them in the Results section. We have also revised the Discussion to propose alternative possibilities that may guide future investigations.

      The other main weakness is that since the authors only mutated the end of one germline chromosome, it is not clear whether the elimination of the MDS adjacent to the terminal MLS on chromosome 4 when the CBS is mutated is a general phenomenon, i.e., would happen at all chromosome ends, or is unique to the situation at Chromosome 4R. Knowing whether it is a general phenomenon or not would provide important insight into the authors' findings.

      As was described in the manuscript, the short (CBS = 15 nt) target within AT-rich and repetitive regions prevent designing gRNAs specifically targeting some of the chromosome end CBSs. We tried to mutate the CBS sequences of the left end of the chromosome 3 (3L) and the left end of the chromosome 5 (5L) by the strategy we used to mutate 4R-CBS but failed. Therefore, to systematically mutate other chromosome-end CBSs, we need to establish a different strategy, such as combining template-based repairing to CRISPR-induced DSB. We have explained this technical limitation and stated that “Our data support a critical role for 4R-CBS in separating 4R-MLS from 4R-MDS, but it remains unclear whether all MIC chromosome ends are strictly CBS-dependent for their elimination.” in Discussion (Page 12).

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Nagao and Mochizuki investigated how the germline (MIC) telomere was removed during programmed genome rearrangement in the developing somatic nucleus (MAC). Using an optimized oligo-FISH procedure, the authors demonstrated that MIC telomeres were co-eliminated with a large region of MIC-limited sequences (MLS) demarcated on the opposite side by a sub-telomeric chromosome breakage site (CBS). This conclusion was corroborated by the latest assembly of the Tetrahymena MIC genome. They further employed CRISPR-Cas9 mutagenesis to disrupt a specific sub-telomeric CBS (4R-CBS). In uniparental progeny (mutant X WT), DNA elimination of the sub-telomeric MLS was not affected, but the adjacent MAC-destined sequence (MDS) may be co-eliminated. However, in biparental progeny (mutant X mutant), global DNA elimination was arrested, revealing previously unrecognized connections between chromosome breakage and DNA elimination. It also paves the way for future studies into the underlying molecular mechanisms. The work is rigorous, well-controlled, and offers important insights into how eukaryotic genomes demarcate genic regions (retained DNA) and regions derived from transposable elements (TE; eliminated DNA) during differentiation. The identification of chromosome breakage sequences as barriers preventing the spread of silencing (and ultimately, DNA elimination) from TE-derived regions into functional somatic genes is a key conceptual contribution.

      Strengths:

      New method development: Oligo-FISH in Tetrahymena. This allows high-resolution visualization of critical genome rearrangement events during MIC-to-MAC differentiation. This method will be a very powerful tool in this area of study.

      Integration of cytological and genomic data. The conclusion is strongly supported by both analyses.

      Rigorous genetic analysis of the role played by 4R-CBS in separating the fate of sub-telomeric MLS (elimination) and MDS (retention). DNA elimination in ciliates has long been regarded as an extreme form of gene silencing. Now, chromosome breakage sequences can be viewed as an extreme form of gene insulators.

      Weaknesses:

      The finding of global disruption of DNA elimination in 4R-CBS mutant progeny is highly intriguing, but it's mostly presented as a hypothesis in the Discussion. The authors propose that the failure to separate MLS from MDS allows aberrant heterochromatin spreading from the former into the latter, potentially silencing genes required for DNA elimination itself. While supported by prior literature on heterochromatin feedback loops, the specific targets silenced are not identified. While results from ChIP-seq and small RNA-seq can greatly strengthen the paper, the reviewer understands that direct molecular characterization may be beyond the scope of the current work.

      As mentioned in our reply to Reviewer #1’s comment above, we performed RNA-seq on wild-type and 4R-CBS mutant cells at 13.5 hpm and 15 hpm and found that genes in 4R-MDS are not significantly downregulated in 4R-CBS mutant cells (Figure 9), suggesting that the DNA elimination defect in these cells cannot be explained by aberrant heterochromatin spreading. Therefore, the link between the chromosome break at 4R-CBS and general DNA elimination remains elusive and will be a very interesting subject for our future research. We have added these results and revised the discussion in the manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Programmed DNA elimination (PDE) is a process that removes a substantial amount of genomic DNA during development. While it contradicts the genome constancy rule, an increasing number of organisms have been found to undergo PDE, indicating its potential biological function. Single-cell ciliates have been used as a prominent model system for studying PDE, providing important mechanistic insights into this process. Many of those studies have focused on the excision of internally eliminated sequences (IES) and the subsequent repair using non-homologous end joining (NHEJ). These studies have led to the identification of small RNAs that mark retained or eliminated regions and the transposons that generate double-strand breaks.

      In this manuscript, Nagao and Mochizuki examined the other type of breaks in ciliates that were healed with telomere addition. They specifically focused on the sequences at the ends of the germline (MIC) chromosomes, which have received relatively less attention due to the technical challenges associated with the highly repetitive nature of the sequences. The authors used the Tetrahymena model and developed a set of new tools. They used a novel FISH strategy that enables the distinction between germline and somatic telomeres, as well as the retained and eliminated DNA near the chromosome ends. This allows them to track these sequences at the cellular level throughout the development process, where PDE occurs. They also analyzed the more comprehensive germline and somatic genomes and determined at the sequence level the loss of subtelomeric and telomere sequences at all chromosome ends. Their result is reminiscent of the PDE observed in nematodes, where all germline chromosome ends are removed and remodeled. Thus, the finding connects two independent PDE systems, a protozoan and a metazoan, and suggests the convergent evolution of chromosome end removal and remodeling in PDE.

      The majority of sites (8/10) at the junctions of retained and eliminated DNA at the chromosome ends contain a chromosome breakage sequence (CBS). The authors created a set of mutants that modify the CBS at the ends of chromosome 4R. CBS regions are challenging for CRISPR due to their AT-rich sequences, making the creation of the 4R-CBS mutants a significant breakthrough. They used the FISH assay to determine if PDE still occurs in these mutant strains with compromised CBS. Surprisingly, they found that instead of blocking PDE, its adjacent retained DNA is now eliminated, suggesting a co-elimination event when the breakage is impaired. Furthermore, in biparental mutant crosses, no PDE occurred, and no viable progeny were produced, indicating that the removal of chromosome ends is crucial for proper PDE and sexual progeny development. Overall, the work demonstrates a critical role for 4R-CBS in separating retained and eliminated DNA.

      We appreciate Reviewer 3’s assessment.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewing Editor Comments:

      All reviewers agree that this study makes an important contribution to the field; however, they also offered several suggestions for how the manuscript could be improved. In particular, we draw your attention to the comments from Reviewer #1, who suggests that the manuscript could benefit from additional information on the general composition of germline chromosome ends, where available.

      As noted in our response to Reviewer #1 in the Public Reviews above, we have included an analysis of the fraction of repetitive sequences for each MLS as Figure 3B in the revised manuscript, highlighting the highly repetitive nature of MLSs compared with the rest of the genome.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      As mentioned in the weaknesses section, the authors could provide more information regarding the nature of the sequences that make up the terminal MLS. There have been reports that these are highly repetitive; is that the case? Also, did the authors identify common repeats that are not internal to mic chromosomes that could be used to track all terminal segments of the five chromosomes? This would complement their mic-telomere probe.

      As noted in our response to Reviewer #1’s Public Review above, we have added an analysis of the fraction of repetitive sequences for each MLS as Figure 3B in the revised manuscript, which confirms that MLSs are highly repetitive.

      Apart from the moderately conserved Telomere Associated Sequence (TAS), described by Kirk and Blackburn (1995) and of unknown function, we were unable to identify any obvious shared repeats unique to MLSs that could support the development of pan-MLS-specific probes.

      One major weakness is that the authors did little to determine the cause of the elimination of the adjacent MDS along the 4R-MLS when the CBS was mutated. It would really improve the study if the authors could show that:

      (1) Gene expression of genes on the MDS is reduced in 4r-CBS mutant progeny.

      (2) Heterochromatin modifications are unexpectedly acquired on the MDS in mutants relative to wild-type chromosomes.

      (3) Do scnRNA specific to the MDS region appear in the mutant progeny during development, but not in wild-type crosses?

      Any data that would help support the authors' hypothesis regarding how the MDS region is eliminated when the CBS is mutant would definitely strengthen the conclusions of the study.

      As noted in our response to Reviewer #1’s Public Review above, we performed RNA-seq on wild-type and 4R-CBS mutant cells at 13.5 hpm and 15 hpm. Our analysis showed that genes within the 4R-MDS are not significantly downregulated in 4R-CBS mutant cells (Figure 9), suggesting that the DNA elimination defect in these cells cannot be attributed to aberrant heterochromatin spreading. Therefore, the connection between the chromosome break at 4R-CBS and general DNA elimination remains unclear and represents an important avenue for future investigation. We have incorporated these results and revised the discussion accordingly in the updated manuscript.

      The other main weakness is that by mutating the CBS of only one chromosome arm, one can't know whether the loss of the MDS with the MLS in the mutants is generalizable for all chromosome arms or is unique to 4R. The authors noted that they were unable to make any other mutated CBSs. Another way to try to get to this question is to try to rescue the mutant by inserting a new CBS into the 4R arm such that some MLS remains linked to the 4R-MDS and see whether removing the mic telomere is the issue, or would a block of MLS attached to the 4R-MDS be sufficient to cause its elimination. I'm not sure where to exactly put the new CBS, but worth thinking about.

      To introduce a new CBS into 4R-MLS, we would need to insert a CBS-containing construct into the MIC by homologous recombination during conjugation and then select engineered transformants using a drug resistance marker expressed from the derived MAC. However, because 4R-MLS is still eliminated in the progeny of 4R-CBS mutants, the introduced marker would be lost from the MAC even if homologous recombination were successful. Therefore, although the strategy suggested by this reviewer is very interesting, several technical innovations are required to make such experiments feasible, leaving this approach for a future project.

      It seems somewhat curious that the mutation of the CBS completely blocks nuclear development. In Paramecium, the failure to complete internal DNA elimination events can lead to alternative telomere addition. The caveat being that, in Paramecium, telomere addition appears more promiscuous than in Tetrahymena. It would be helpful to know how absolute the failure to produce progeny is in these mutants. Is it zero progeny in 10<sup>6</sup>, 10<sup>7</sup>, 10<sup>8</sup> ..... mated cells? Can the authors provide a possible lowest possible frequency?

      The viability tests were performed using bulk mating of 2.5 × 10<sup>4</sup> cells for each cross. Because ~70-80% of mating pairs complete the conjugation process and produce exconjugants under our standard culture conditions, and because we did not detect any 6-mp-resistant progeny from MUT x MUT crosses, we estimate that the probability of obtaining viable progeny in these crosses was less than 1 progeny per ~2 × 10<sup>4</sup> mating pairs. The number of cells used for the viability assay is described in the “Viability Test of Sexual Progeny” section of Materials and Methods and the estimated frequency of progeny production from the mutants has been mentioned in Results section in the revised manuscript.

      The one implication of the study is that chromosome breakage and DNA elimination, two different events, are coupled. In most mutants that block scnRNA-directed DNA elimination, both IES excision and chromosome breakage occur. In the study by McDaniel, SL. et al (2016). DRH1, a p68-related RNA helicase, is required for chromosome breakage in Tetrahymena. Biology Open pii: bio.021576. doi: 10.1242/bio.021576, germline knockouts of DRH1 could complete IES excision, but not chromosome breakage, indicating that the processes can be uncoupled. It may be useful for the authors to discuss this previous work in relation to their finding that failure in chromosome breakage can lead to DNA elimination of neighboring sequences.

      So far, DRH1 is the only gene reported to be required for chromosome breakage without affecting DNA elimination in Tetrahymena. However, McDaniel SL et al. (2016) examined chromosome breakage at only two CBSs (distinct from 4R-CBS), and thus it remains unclear how broadly chromosome breakage, including that at 4R-CBS, is affected in the absence of DRH1. In addition, McDaniel SL et al. (2016) assessed DNA elimination at three different IESs using PCR, whereas our study examined elimination of the repetitive Tlr1 transposon using FISH. Therefore, without further analysis of the similarities and differences in chromosome breakage and DNA elimination phenotypes between DRH1 knockout cells and 4R-CBS mutants, it is difficult to draw meaningful conclusions. Accordingly, we have limited ourselves to stating the following in the Discussion of the revised manuscript: “Moreover, chromosome breakage can be inhibited without disrupting DNA elimination, as shown in cells lacking zygotic expression of the p68-like RNA helicase Drh1 (McDaniel et al., 2016).”

      Minor corrections:

      Page 7, line 3: the text "......inducing chromosome break" should either be "......inducing chromosome breaks" or "......inducing a chromosome break".

      Corrected as “inducing a chromosome break”.

      Page 13, line 13: "......large block...." should be "......large blocks......".

      Corrected as suggested.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The authors can experimentally validate that chromosome breakage at 4R-CBS is indeed disrupted by the mutations. A PCR-based assay testing de novo telomere addition is a standard tool. In addition, MLS-linked telomere should only appear transiently during conjugation in WT cells.

      Because it was previously unknown whether de novo telomere addition occurs at the ends of MLSs upon chromosome breakage, we tested this using a PCR-based assay. We detected telomere-added chromosome ends of 4R-MLS and 3L-MLS, which were undetectable until 10.5 hpm, appeared at 12 hpm, and gradually decreased by 18 hpm in wild-type cells (WT × WT cross). Importantly, the appearance of the telomere-added 4R-MLS end, but not the 3L-MLS end, was blocked in 4R-CBS mutants (Mut x Mut crosses), strongly supporting that the 4R-CBS mutations specifically disrupt chromosome breakage at 4R-CBS. These new data are shown in Figure 5C–E and described in the Results section.

      The high FISH background during conjugation may be caused by the abundant presence of dsRNA, which is resistant to RNase A treatment but may be degraded by RNase III.

      The high FISH background was observed in the parental MAC at 9 and 12 hpm (Figure 2, 4, and S2) where dsRNA accumulation was not detected in the previous studies (Woo et al. 2016; Shehzada et al. 2024). In contrast, the MIC at 3 hpm and the new MAC at 9 and 12 hpm, where strong dsRNA accumulation was detected, showed much weaker background FISH signals (Figure 2, 4, and S2). Therefore, we believe that dsRNA is not the main cause of the high FISH background.

      It is likely that the long MIC telomere is treated as IES and targeted for DNA elimination. Indeed, telomere-specific scnRNA is abundantly produced during conjugation (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19460867).

      We have cited the suggested literature and the following description has been added in Discussion to relate the reported telomere-derived scnRNAs to the abundant scnRNAs produced from MIC chromosomal ends: “In addition, telomere-complementary scnRNAs were reported to be produced specifically during conjugation (Cao et al. 2009).”

      Global disruption of DNA elimination may be a direct effect (DNA excision machinery affected) or indirect (unrepaired DSB and checkpoint activation).

      It has been reported that unrepaired DSBs caused by loss of Ku80 (Tku80) do not block DNA elimination in Tetrahymena (Lin et al. 2012). Therefore, checkpoint activation by unrepaired DSBs, if it occurs, is unlikely to explain the DNA elimination defect observed in the progeny of 4R-CBS mutants. Nonetheless, this direct-versus-indirect issue would be relevant when considering whether disruption of specific 4R-MDS-encoded genes in 4R-CBS mutants could cause the DNA elimination defect. Our new RNA-seq analysis, however, suggests that this possibility is unlikely. Therefore, we did not add further discussion of this direct-versus-indirect issue.

      Minor points:

      The zoom-in boxes in most images are barely visible.

      We have modified the zoom-in boxes to make them clearer.

      Page 13: scnRNA precursors (Cai et al., 2025) (Cai et al., in press). Is it one paper or two?

      They are two papers and the latter was published reacently. We have updated the citation.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The manuscript is well-written, with clear data, thoughtful discussion, and concise presentation. I have only a few minor comments below.

      For Figure 4 and others, the right panel shows the stats and percentages, with positive and negative labels. It's a bit confusing at first glance. I think it can be clarified what positive and negative mean in the legend.

      The legends of Figure 4, Figure 6 and Supplementary Figure S2, have been modified as “The presence (Positive) or absence (Negative) of the 4R-MLS FISH signal in new MAC (An) in 50 cells per time point was examined.”

      The quality of the FISH images is low at their current resolution. It is difficult to get a clear view.

      In the initial version, some images were in low resolution when we combined them into a single pdf file for review. In the revised manuscript, the images have been replaced with high-resolution images.

      The co-elimination of neighboring 4R-MDS when 4R-CBS is mutated, can this be viewed as a fail-safe mechanism to ensure the elimination of the chromosome ends? Regardless, the result begs the question of the significance of end removal and remodeling of PDE. Some speculations in the discussion might be helpful.

      Because the neighboring 4R-MDS contains approximately 100 predicted genes, its co-elimination would likely be too risky to evolve as a fail-safe mechanism for ensuring chromosome-end elimination in every generation. Instead, we interpret this as an erroneous process that can still be compensated for through endoreplication of the remaining, normally processed 4R-MDS from the non-mutated copy.

      We further speculate that the connection between chromosome breakage at 4R-CBS and the essential PDE process may serve as an evolutionary pressure to preserve the 4R-CBS locus in a chromosome breakage-competent state. We have added the following discussion to the revised manuscript (Page 15): “The observed link between chromosome breakage at 4R-CBS and the essential DNA elimination process may reflect the biological significance of MLSs and the importance of their removal from the MAC. Coupling these processes may have evolved as a mechanism to ensure that only functional chromosome-end CBS loci are preferentially transmitted to future generations.”

      Figure 1, legend, line 3, "the sexual reproduction process", do you mean "the sexual reproduction proceeds or initiates"?

      We meant “conjugation” = “the sexual reproduction process”. To make this clearer, we have revised the legend as “conjugation, which is the sexual reproduction process of Tetrahymena”.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This valuable study presents convincing data demonstrating that alpha herpesvirus triggers nuclear export of HDACs, which are then degraded in an MDM2-dependent manner. This virus-driven process leads to histone hyperacetylation and activation of the DNA damage response, which promotes viral replication.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      [Editors' note: this version has been assessed by the Reviewing Editor without further input from the original reviewers. The authors have addressed the comments raised in the previous round of review.]

      Summary:

      In this study, the authors propose that HSV-1 infection degrades the class I histone deacetylases HDAC1 and HDAC2. The MDM2 E3 ubiquitin ligase from the DNA damage response pathway is responsible for ubiquitinating these HDACs that are subsequently degraded via proteasomes. The authors hypothesize that HDAC degradation will cause hyperacetylation of viral chromatin and enable viral gene transcription.

      Strengths:

      The ubiquitination of HDAC1 & HDAC2 by Mdm2 and the mapping studies are clear.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors discovered that HDAC1/2 are degraded in HSV-1 and PRV infections. They attempted to establish a new mechanism by which HDAC1/2 are translocated to the cytoplasm to be degraded in HSV-1 infection, and the degradation causes changes in histone acetylation to affect the DDR pathway.

      Strengths:

      (1) Interesting findings of HDAC1/2 degradation during HSV-1 and PRV infection, and it may impact more than the virology field.

      (2) Significant work to identify the ubiquitin site in HDAC1/2 and K63 linkage.

    4. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, the authors propose that HSV-1 infection degrades the class I histone deacetylases HDAC1 and HDAC2. The MDM2 E3 ubiquitin ligase from the DNA damage response pathway is responsible for ubiquitinating these HDACs that are subsequently degraded via proteasomes. The authors hypothesize that HDAC degradation will cause hyperacetylation of viral chromatin and enable viral gene transcription.

      Strengths:

      The ubiquitination of HDAC1 & HDAC2 by Mdm2 and the mapping studies are clear.

      Comments on revised version:

      The authors enhanced their manuscript by more supportive data and providing clarification and the necessary corrections. However, a few more issues pertain:

      (1) In Figure 4j at 2 h post-infection we typically see the input virus and not progeny virus production. The input seems to have about 1-log difference that is expected to impact the results.

      We sincerely appreciate the reviewer's valuable comments regarding the timing notation. It should be noted that the "2 h" indicated in Figure 4j does not refer to two hours after the start of viral infection, but rather to two hours following medium replacement—after the virus has completed adsorption and internalization at 37°C (typically taking 2 hours), with this moment defined as the new time zero point (t = 0 h). Thus, this corresponds to approximately 4 hours post-infection (4 hpi). All subsequent sampling time points (4, 6, 12, and 24 h) are consistently defined according to this same system. This temporal framework aligns with previous studies: Nobe et al. (mBio 2025; DOI: 10.1128/mbio.00280-25) have clearly demonstrated that newly generated viral particles can be detected as early as 4 hours after HSV-1 infection, supporting the possibility of early progeny virus production at this time point in our experiment. We have accordingly revised the figure legend for Figure 4j to explicitly state the time reference ("t = 0 h defined as time of medium replacement post-adsorption") and added detailed procedural descriptions in the Methods section regarding adsorption, medium change, and sample collection time points to ensure clarity and reproducibility of the timing protocol.

      (2) Figs 1A, 1E, 2H it seems unclear why ICP4 becomes detectable at 12 h post-infection in HeLa cells? How about other a-genes? How about other cells? ICP4 is typically detectable within 2-3 h post-infection.

      We sincerely appreciate the valuable comments provided by the reviewers. Regarding the observation that ICP4 was detected only after 12 hours post-infection in HeLa cells, we re-evaluated our experimental conditions and reviewed relevant literature. The results indicate that at a higher multiplicity of infection (MOI = 5), ICP4 can indeed be reliably detected in HeLa cells as early as 2 hours post-infection (Author response image 1). Notably, Fouad S. El-Mayet et al. reported that under MOI = 1, ICP4 could not be detected until 8 hours after HSV-1 infection of mouse neuroblastoma Neuro-2A cells Figure 5A (Fouad S. El-Mayet et al., Antiviral Research, 2024, DOI: 10.1016/j.antiviral.2024.105870), although their early protein VP16 showed positive expression as early as 4 hours post-infection. This time difference is closely related to cell type: Neuro-2A is a highly susceptible neuronal cell line for HSV-1, exhibiting significantly faster viral gene expression kinetics compared to epithelial-derived HeLa cells. In contrast, HeLa cells are human cervical cancer epithelial cells with relatively low efficiency in initial transcriptional activation of HSV-1 and higher baseline expression levels of endogenous antiviral factors (such as interferon-stimulated genes), which may lead to a marked delay in the expression of early immediate-early genes like ICP4.

      Author response image 1.

      (3) In responses 2-2, Fig 5K: An infection without transfection has not been included. This is important to understand kinetics of infection in transfected cells.

      We sincerely appreciate the reviewer's insightful identification of this critical oversight. In all relevant experiments, we have strictly included empty vector transfection controls—serving as a baseline reference for each transfection group to eliminate potential influences from the transfection procedure itself and the vector background on viral replication, gene expression, and signaling pathways. The failure to clearly label this control in previous figure legends and main figures was indeed an omission in our presentation; we have now fully addressed this in the revised manuscript: all figures involving transfections (including Figures 3L, 3M, 5K, etc.) now explicitly indicate the "empty vector" control, and we have added detailed explanations in the figure legends and methods section regarding its role as an internal transfection control and procedural comparator. Once again, we thank the reviewer for their high level of professionalism in helping us enhance the completeness and scientific rigor of our data presentation.

      (4) Why HDAC1 with deleted NES does not accumulate or looks like it is degraded? Why then ICP4 does not accumulate?

      We sincerely apologize for the lack of clear labeling of the FLAG-HDAC1 ΔNES protein band in Author response image 2. This omission may have led reviewers to misinterpret its expression level as abnormal. After re-evaluation and improved annotation, Author response image 2 now clearly indicates the FLAG-HDAC1 ΔNES band its migration position corresponds to the expected molecular weight (slightly smaller than wild-type FLAG-HDAC1), and the band intensity is comparable to that of the empty vector and wild-type groups, indicating stable intracellular expression of this mutant protein without significant degradation. Therefore, its inhibitory effect on HSV-1 replication is not due to protein instability, but rather results from subcellular localization defects caused by the loss of nuclear export signal (NES): the ΔNES mutation causes HDAC1 to abnormally retain within the nucleus, ultimately leading to significant downregulation of ICP4 transcription and impaired protein accumulation.

      Author response image 2.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors discovered that HDAC1/2 are degraded in HSV-1 and PRV infections. They attempted to establish a new mechanism by which HDAC1/2 are translocated to the cytoplasm to be degraded in HSV-1 infection, and the degradation causes changes in histone acetylation to affect the DDR pathway.

      Strengths:

      (1) Interesting findings of HDAC1/2 degradation during HSV-1 and PRV infection, and it may impact more than the virology field.

      (2) Significant work to identify the ubiquitin site in HDAC1/2 and K63 linkage.

      Comments on revised version:

      The authors added experiments to address the previous comments. The added knockdown and overexpression experiments provided sufficient support for the proposed mechanism. The conclusions are now strengthened. However, a few essential controls are still missing.

      (1) Figure 3K: How does the expression level of Flag-HDAC1 variants compare to the endogenous HDAC1 level? The stripe probed by Flag antibody should be reprobed by HDAC1 antibody. Also, how does the K74R mutant affect histone acetylation? Moreover, the numbers between the panels are hard to read and have not been explained.

      We sincerely thank the reviewers for their insightful and constructive feedback. In response to the comment on Figure 3K, we performed antibody re-probing of the Flag-immunoprecipitated or Flag-immunoblotted membranes with a validated HDAC1-specific antibody. Consistent with robust transfection and expression, both wild-type Flag-HDAC1 and its mutants including K74R exhibited markedly elevated total HDAC1 protein levels relative to vector control, confirming efficient exogenous expression and protein stability. To directly assess functional consequences, we evaluated global histone acetylation status in parallel samples and found that the K74R mutant induces significantly greater deacetylation than wild-type Flag-HDAC1, as demonstrated by pronounced reductions in H3K56ac and H4K8 acetylation levels. Finally, to improve clarity and readability, we have revised the lane annotations in Figure 3K—increasing font size, enhancing contrast, and ensuring consistent alignment—and fully documented these modifications in the updated figure legend.

      (2) Figure 3M and 3L: DNA transfection per se frequently stimulates cell reactions that inhibit HSV-1 replication. Is the HSV-1 only sample transfected by empty vector or untransfected?

      We sincerely appreciate the reviewer's insightful identification of this critical oversight. In all relevant experiments, we have strictly included empty vector transfection controls serving as a baseline reference for each transfection group to eliminate potential influences from the transfection procedure itself and the vector background on viral replication, gene expression, and signaling pathways. The failure to clearly label this control in previous figure legends and main figures was indeed an omission in our presentation; we have now fully addressed this in the revised manuscript: all figures involving transfections (including Figures 3L, 3M, 5K, etc.) now explicitly indicate the "empty vector" control, and we have added detailed explanations in the figure legends and methods section regarding its role as an internal transfection control and procedural comparator. Once again, we thank the reviewer for their high level of professionalism in helping us enhance the completeness and scientific rigor of our data presentation.

      (3) Figure 4G-4J: What is the MDM2 knockdown efficiency?

      During the construction of the MDM2 knockdown cell lines, we first systematically validated the knockdown efficiency by qRT-PCR. As shown in Figure 4A, compared to the control group (shCtrl), MDM2 mRNA levels were reduced by approximately 60% in shMDM2 cells, and protein expression also showed a corresponding significant decrease, confirming that the cell line had been successfully established and exhibited stable gene silencing effects.

      (4) Figure 5F and line 400-401: "thereby preventing HDAC1 degradation-markedly impaired HSV-1 replication (Fig. 5F)." However, viral replication is not demonstrated in Figure 5F.

      We sincerely appreciate the reviewer for pointing out the error in the figure legend numbering. Upon verification, the experimental data referred to in lines 400–401 of the original text and in Figure 5F actually correspond to the revised new Figure 5J. We apologize for failing to update the figure references in the main text during the revision process due to an oversight. We have now uniformly corrected all relevant descriptions in the text to "Figure 5J" and conducted a comprehensive review of all figure numbers, table numbers, and cross-references throughout the manuscript to confirm there are no other similar errors.

      (5) Figure 5K: also need a control of empty vector. Furthermore, how does the HDAC1 ΔNES expression affect histone acetylation and DDR responses?

      We sincerely thank the reviewers for their thoughtful and constructive feedback on Figure 5K. With regard to the empty vector control: all pertinent experiments in this study were performed with rigorous inclusion of an appropriate empty vector control (pCMV-Flag or its isogenic backbone), serving as the definitive negative control. The prior absence of this control in the figure representation was unintentional and reflects an oversight in data presentation—not in experimental design—and we offer our sincere apologies. We have now incorporated the empty vector control bands into Figure 5K and revised the figure legend to explicitly identify and describe this control. In addition, per the reviewers’ recommendation, we conducted a comprehensive assessment of HDAC1 ΔNES function, specifically examining its impact on global histone acetylation and canonical DNA damage response (DDR) activation. Quantitative immunoblotting and immunofluorescence analyses revealed that HDAC1 ΔNES expression leads to significantly greater reduction in H3K56ac and H4K8 acetylation compared with wild-type HDAC1. Moreover, upon induction of DNA damage, HDAC1 ΔNES-expressing cells exhibit attenuated DDR signaling, evidenced by diminished γH2AX focus formation, reduced CHK2 phosphorylation (p-CHK2), and blunted p53 stabilization and activation consistent with impaired DDR initiation or propagation (see Author response image 3). Collectively, these data indicate that nuclear retention of HDAC1 due to NES deletion not only potentiates its chromatin-targeted deacetylase activity but also contributes to suppression of DDR signaling, likely through epigenetic modulation of damage-sensing chromatin domains.

      Author response image 3.

      (6) Statements listed below are better moved to discussion after all data being presented. They are quite a stretch when looking at each figure by itself.

      (i) Line 268-270: "Together, these findings indicate that HSV-1 selectively degrades class I HDACs, resulting in widespread histone hyperacetylation that fosters a chromatin state conducive to viral replication". ----may be okay for a statement.

      (ii) Line 291-292: "providing initial evidence that HSV-1 infection promotes DDR activation through downregulation of HDAC1 expression"

      (iii) Line 331-333: "Together, these results indicate that HSV-1 infection promotes K63-linked polyubiquitination of HDAC1/2 at conserved lysine residues, ultimately leading to their proteasomal degradation."

      (iv) Line 334-336 is a repeated sentence.

      We sincerely thank the reviewers for their thoughtful and constructive feedback. As noted, statements of mechanistic interpretation are not appropriate in the Results section; accordingly, we have relocated all such statements to the Discussion section. Furthermore, we have conducted a comprehensive line-by-line review of the manuscript to ensure that (i) every mechanistic inference is directly supported by experimental data presented in the Results, and (ii) integrative interpretations particularly those linking molecular observations to broader biological implications are confined exclusively to the Discussion.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This important study establishes an environmental sampling workflow for the discovery of bacteriophages capable of infecting antibiotic-resistant pathogens. The authors convincingly demonstrate the effectiveness of the approach, even with the limited sampling scheme and the current challenges in viral taxonomy. This study will interest researchers working on bacterial infections, environmental microbiology, and phage-based alternatives for addressing antimicrobial resistance.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      [Editors' note: this version has been assessed by the Reviewing Editor without an additional round of formal review from the original reviewers. The authors have addressed the comments raised in the previous round of review.]

      Summary:

      In the manuscript "Pathogen-Phage Geomapping to Overcome Resistance," Do et al. present an impressive demonstration of using geographical sampling and metagenomics to guide sample choice for enrichment in human-associated microbes and the pathogen of interest to increase the chances of success for isolating phages active against highly resistant bacterial strains. The authors document many notable successes (17!) with highly resistant bacterial isolates and share a thoughtfully structured phage discovery effort, potentially opening the door to similar geomapping efforts across the field. While the work is methodologically strong and valuable for the community, there are a few areas where additional clarification and analysis could better align the claims with the data presented.

      Strengths:

      (1) The manuscript describes a well-executed and transparent example of overcoming a major obstacle in therapeutic virus identification, providing a practical success story that will resonate with researchers in microbiology and medicine.

      (2) Many phage researchers have anecdotally experienced a similar phenomenon, that a particular wastewater treatment plant always seems to have the pathogens you need. Quantifying this with metagenomics modernizes and adds evidence to this phenomenon in a way that could help researchers reproduce this success in a methodical way.

      (3) The methodology of combining environmental sampling, viral screening, and host-range analysis is clearly articulated and reproducible, offering a valuable blueprint for others in the field.

      (4) The data are presented with appropriate analytical rigor, and the results include robust sequencing and metagenomic profiling that deepen understanding of local viral communities.

      (5) The 17 successes yielding 35 phages have a lot of phylogenetic novelty beyond what the Tailor labs have typically found with previous methods.

      (6) The work highlights a practical and innovative solution to an increasingly important clinical problem, supporting the development of personalized antiviral strategies.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript by Do and colleagues aims to develop a workflow for isolating and identifying bacteriophages with potential applications in phage therapy against antibiotic-resistant pathogens. The workflow integrates geΦmapping as a strategy to identify potential phage sources, ΦHD as a device for phage concentration, and RΦ as a phage library constructed from the initial sampling, resulting in the discovery of 36 new phages. The paper is overall interesting, and the proposed method appears robust and effective.

      Strengths:

      The methods proposed combined state-of-the-art strategies to solve an ever-increasing problem of antibiotic resistance. The methods are robust, and the controls are appropriate. The integration of environmental sampling, concentration strategies, and downstream genomic characterization is a clear strength and provides a potentially scalable framework for identifying candidate therapeutic phages. The manuscript is clearly written overall, and the results support the main conclusions.

      Comments on revised version:

      The manuscript has been adequately improved and adjusted according to the comments. There are minor points such as Table S10 is labelled in the top of the page as Table S11. Also, is a little unconventional to cite result figures and tables in the introduction.

      For the question 10, regarding why some of the most abundant vOTUs in the 5L sample were not detected in the concentrate. The answer does not satisfy, as it focuses on why very low abundant vOTUs will not be detected, but the question is why some of the most abundant vOTUs were not detected. This does not affect the results or interpretation made.

    4. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      (1) The central concept of geomapping as a broadly applicable strategy is wonderfully supported by the 17 successes documented in the paper. While this is actually, of course, a strength, the study does not include a comparative analysis across multiple sites with varying sampling outcomes for different bacterial types, which would be necessary to validate this claim more generally.

      We thank the reviewer for the point, and it is well taken. We addressed this below, where we give a full discussion.

      (2) Some elements, such as beta diversity comparisons and the metagenomics analysis of viral dark matter, would benefit from additional statistical analysis and clearer context.

      The reviewer is quite correct as to the importance of bringing statistical analysis to our metagenomic analysis. To that end, we performed statistical analysis on our metagenomic datasets. We performed statistical analysis on our metagenomic datasets. We approached this using MetaPop to analyze viral metagenomic sequence data at the interpopulation (macrodiversity) level. MetaPop's macrodiversity analysis includes raw population abundance, normalized population abundance, and α-diversity calculations. With normalized population abundance tables, we were able to generate heatmaps to view feature-level distinction between samples and biomes. Furthermore, we were able to calculate β-diversity based on Bray-Curtis dissimilarity. PCoA was performed, and to assess robustness, 2,000 features were randomly subsampled and analysis repeated across 1,000 bootstrap iterations. Resulting ordinations were aligned to a reference with Procrustes alignment. Mean coordinates and standard deviations were calculated for each sample, and scatter plots were generated. Supplementary Tables 6 and 8 and Supplementary Figure 4 have been added.

      (3) Claims about therapeutic cocktails would be better framed as speculative and/or moved to the discussion section.

      We thank the reviewer for their point, and it is well taken. Please see our more detailed response to this earlier in this reply.

      (4) The manuscript could be strengthened by elaborating on the scope and composition of the phage and bacterial isolate collections, which are important for interpreting the broader significance of the findings.

      We thank the reviewer for their point. We have added further details on the bacterial and phage isolate collections so the readers may draw the proper conclusions.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Weaknesses:
>

      While the authors acknowledge several limitations, some aspects require clearer framing or additional clarification. The proposed workflow focuses exclusively on aquatic environments as sources of phages, which may limit the diversity of hosts and phage types recoverable using this approach. Some interpretations, particularly regarding taxonomic classification and sampling saturation, would benefit from more cautious wording given current limitations in viral taxonomy and the observed data.

      The reviewer makes an excellent point. To try and address this, we made several edits to the main text of the discussion section to reframe and add clarification to our limitations. We also mention the limitation of our strategy to aquatic environments. Lastly, we addressed the final sentence below.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) To really demonstrate geomapping success would require more comparisons: choosing a variety of locations with and without high host levels and then analyzing the yes or no outcomes in terms of whether phages were found. This manuscript demonstrates 17 substantial and significant successes, very much worth sharing, but I am not sure it answers the central question posed in the title and abstract. This could potentially be accomplished through analysis of existing data related to the attempts, or it may be important to state this limitation in the discussion.

      We thank the reviewer for their insightful comment on the generalizability of our geomapping strategy and their emphasis on adding more comparisons to support the claim. While we did not test the 17 bacterial isolates (XΦROs) across multiple sites with varied host levels, we did incorporate an initial, broad preliminary screening panel designed to assess the presence and diversity of phage against multiple pathogens and laboratory strains across different sampled environments after site comparisons with the geomap (Fig. 2G). In another instance, we did without the guidance of the geomap (Supp. Fig. 2I). In each case, highly polluted waters located in densely populated areas (wastewater, Brays Bayou, and Buffalo Bayou) had higher success rates in phage recovery compared to other less polluted sites (Clear Creek, Galveston seawater, Hamilton Pool Preserve, and Pedernales Falls). This trend is consistent with previous reports [16,51]. The screening step functioned as an initial comparison and allowed us to gauge phage availability across different genera of bacteria prior to a focused geomap-guided phage hunt. In the geomap-guided experiment, we compared a low host-availability control site (Clear Creek) with two high host-availability sites (wastewater and Brays Bayou). More comparisons, especially incorporating even more sites with varied host availability, would strengthen the claim but not be invalid without it.

      In an ideal situation, we would perform the exact additional experiments proposed by the reviewer. However, we ran into logistical issues. As it turns out, phage quantities in various sites vary with weather, specifically rainfall (a finding that we intend to touch on in a future manuscript). As such, this variable must be matched. Even with the long summers of Texas, we were unable to perform multiple, serial PhiHD runs at multiple sites with similar weather conditions. As such we rely on the strength of preliminary screening (16S and plating for phage) to provide a clear guide as to where to place PhiHD experiments.

      We would still contend that the consistency between preliminary screening results and subsequent successful geomapping-guided discoveries (finding phages against 17 different isolates) gives sufficient evidence that geomapping is an effective strategy for identifying productive sampling sites. However, we acknowledge the excellent point of the reviewer and we have edited the main text to include this in the limitations, so that the reader may make their own evaluation.

      (2) Line 44: 24% of infections >> perhaps better to describe as isolates, as many infections contain multiple isolates of different types. More background in terms of the number of infections in general, comprising the 24% on the bacterial side, and also a description of the 350 phages in terms of known hosts, would be very interesting to add.

      This is an excellent suggestion that would add valuable background to the introduction and provide context for phage laboratories interested in the volume of cases handled by TAILΦR and the isolates they receive. We changed the main text to include information regarding this suggestion. We also provided a three extra tables to show 1) TAILΦR’s number of distinct case counts with number of bacterial isolates received, 2) TAILΦR’s phage library, and 3) number of isolates with NO phage. Please see Supp. Tables 1-3.

      (3) Line 92: To add a statistical test to the beta diversity comparisons beyond visual inspection of the location of the points on an ordination, I suggest adding a PERMANOVA.

      The reviewer makes an excellent point, and we agree that visual inspection should be backed up by rigorous statistics where possible. As such, we performed an analysis of molecular variance (AMOVA, done in Mothur) to compare samples derived from brackish, sea, fresh, and sewage. AMOVA showed statistical significance between the samples and confirms our visual inspection of the β-analysis. The text has been altered to reflect AMOVA data.

      (4) Line 112 (related to point 2 and Fig 1A): How many isolates in the collection for which 24% did not have a phage, and 35% were Pseudomonas?

      Related to changes in point 2, we added a supplementary table to provide insight into the number of bacterial isolates without a phage. In total, 104 (24% of 435 isolates in the TAILOR library) have no phage, and 35 belong to Pseudomonas aeruginosa.

      (5) Line 141: How is it known that Pseudomonas phage concentration increased by 95x? There could be unknowns / difficult to cultivate or phages without the right host. Consider describing as yields rather than the absolute concentrations.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s point that not all Pseudomonas phages are accounted for due to host specificity and potential unknowns. We agree completely that all we have are surrogates. We tracked the concentration of phages that infected our indicator strain Pseudomonas aeruginosa PAO1. We selected PAO1 because of its broad susceptibility profile and its role as a permissive host for isolating a wide range of Pseudomonas phages. While we acknowledge that not all Pseudomonas phages will be detected, PAO1 captures a wide breadth of Pseudomonas phages, enabling consistent comparisons between samples. Our concentration changes reflect a within-sample comparison between unprocessed material and the processed material. Aligned with reviewer’s concern, the values should not be taken as an estimate of absolute phage concentration in the samples. Rather, the values are method-dependent estimates of enrichment efficiency for PAO1-infecting phages. In tandem with PAO1-infecting phages, the concentration of other viral-like particles infecting other organisms is most likely increased with each concentration step. We have revised the entire manuscript to mention “phage yield,” rather than associate an increase to a concentration.

      (6) Line 224: 39.1% viruses> I believe this refers to vOTUs rather than viruses.

      The reviewer is correct; we appreciate the catch! We corrected the text to “vOTUs.”

      (7) Lines 224-230: How does this relate to the expected ~70% Dark Matter?

      As observed in many viral metagenomic studies, our dataset is also dominated by viral dark matter. Between 60.9% (outlier/singles from vCONTact2) and 66.5% (unclassified from PhaGCN) of vOTUs are in this group. To proceed with caution, we edited the main text to draw attention to the large percentage of viral dark matter in our metagenomic dataset. Although a substantial fraction of vOTUs is unknown, the remaining identifiable sequences provide some biological context, enable validation of sampling strategies and comparative analyses between samples.

      (8) Line 241: there are many perspectives on whether phage treatment should involve cocktails. If a phage is immunogenic and leads to antibody production that can neutralize other phages, one phage could ruin the game for others. Consider presenting this as a perspective, rather than a ground truth, and consider moving to discussion

      This is a very insightful input on this perspective. Our intent was not to present this as a definitive conclusion, but rather to highlight a broader need for a more diverse phage library. This is not limited to phage cocktail generation. We changed the introductory sentence to this paragraph to encompass a broader need for phage diversity and succinctly lead into the next sentence.

      (9) Figure 2b contains an R2 value of 0.7, and 2c has R2=0.76. Where does this come from? Maybe a PERMANOVA? Please describe in legend and/or methods+results.

      Thank you for catching this! β-diversity calculations were based on Bray-Curtis dissimilarity. We have adjusted the methods and results to incorporate this information.

      (10) The Rphi library is mentioned in several places, would be wonderful to have a bit more description of this collection.

      We thank the reviewer for their sharp eye, we definitely wanted to ensure the reader understands the significance of this. We added some descriptor sentences to better highlight and introduce the RΦ-library.

      (11) Consider adding a central success to the abstract, the fact that phages were found for 17 recalcitrant strains of various ESKAPE pathogens, yielding 35 phages after standard phage hunting and experimental evolution approaches had failed.

      We appreciate the reviewer for their emphasis on highlighting the success of our manuscript and made the appropriate changes. We added altered the last sentence to the abstract, and added another sentence to summarize our success.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Figures 1C and 1D require a more detailed description.

      We thank the reviewer for noticing this. We have altered the figure legend to be more descriptive.

      (2) Raw and assembled sequencing data should be submitted to a public repository, and the accession numbers should be provided.

      We have uploaded the raw and assembled sequencing data to a public repository, and the accession numbers are provided in Supp. Table 9 and 12. For raw metagenomic shotgun sequences, BioProject accession is PRJNA1308632 (Supp. Table 2).

      (3) Line 89: The text states that the rarefaction curves plateaued; however, by definition, a plateau implies that the curve no longer increases. In the presented data, all curves continue to rise at the final sampling point. This does not affect the conclusions but suggests that sampling saturation has not been fully reached.

      This is a great observation by our reviewer. We agree with this point as the curves do not reach a complete plateau. We have revised the text to use more accurate language and clarify sampling depth.

      (4) Figure 2D: The heatmap normalized by Z-score within the selected taxa may give a biased impression of enrichment of certain taxa in specific environments, when in fact it only indicates enrichment relative to the other pathogenic taxa included in the analysis.

      The reviewer raises a great point, and we should have pointed this out directly. To avoid potential misinterpretations, we have revised main text to explicitly state that the heatmap displays relative enrichment to the other pathogenic taxa.

      (5) Given the variable taxonomic resolution achieved by 16S rRNA sequencing (genus or family level), it would be important to highlight that some detected taxa include non-pathogenic members. For example, Vibrio is common in seawater, yet only a few species are pathogenic to humans.

      We agree with this! We added a sentence to emphasize this point.

      (6) Figure 2G: The color scale bar is uniform across all panels; please adjust for accurate comparison.

      For more accurate comparisons between different samples and phage concentrations, we added a second color to assist with visualization.

      (7) The PCoA figures should specify which distance metric was used.

      We want to thank the reviewer for the catch, we should have mentioned that. Our PCoA was calculated based on Bray-Curtis dissimilarity. We have adjusted the main text and methods section to mention it.

      (8) Figure 3: The meaning of the colors in panels A and B should be clarified.

      We thank the reviewer for their keen eye. We changed the figure and figure legend to clarify. The colors on the map and PCoA represent influents from various wastewater treatment plants around Texas.

      (9) The manuscript jumps from Supplementary Figure 2 to Figure 6. In general, the order and referencing of supplementary materials are confusing. Supplementary tables and figures should not be intercalated within the same file.

      We thank the reviewer for their patience and apologize for the confusion. This occurred as we had multiple revisions to the manuscript and we did not update the sequence of the figures. To address the reviewer’s comment, we separated the supplementary tables and figures into apart. We also ensured that each main and supplementary figures and table were mentioned sequentially in the main text.

      (10) It is unclear why some vOTUs were observed in the 5 L collection but not in the concentrated sample (10/24; Supplementary Figure 3E). One would expect that the most abundant vOTUs in the 5 L sample should also be easily detected in the concentrate.

      The reviewer brings up a fantastic point. One would certainly expect that the most abundant vOTUs in the 5L samples would also be detected in the concentrated sample.

      We have several suspicions as to why several vOTUS were not detected in our concentrated samples. Because we used shallow shotgun metagenomic sequencing, as compared to deep sequencing, we may have obscured our ability to detect and quantify low-abundance taxa. Consequently, dominant taxa occupying a large portion of sequencing reads may have masked the detection of rarer species/vOTUs. Lower sequencing depth results in fewer total reads per sample and reduced sensitivity for rare, infrequent species/vOTUs to be detected. When their abundance falls below detecting limits, they may appear absent from a data set.

      Furthermore, we reached out to Novogene, who we outsourced for library preparation and shotgun metagenomic sequencing. According to Novogene, not all genetic material in a sample is used during their library preparation. The maximum amount of DNA to build a PCR-free metagenomic library at each time is approximately 1.5 µg of DNA. Although we submitted 184.4 µg of DNA (from the 400L-concentrate) and 25.6 µg of DNA (from the 5L-sample), we suspect only a fraction of the material was used for library preparation and subsequently sequenced. This may have limited the representation of low abundance vOTUs.

      (11) Line 227: The statement that "but only 33.5% of viruses could be classified to the family-level" requires caution. Since the traditional Siphoviridae, Podoviridae, and Myoviridae families were abolished, many viruses currently lack family-level classification. Therefore, this taxonomic level may not be ideal for assessing novelty, as many viruses closely related to known types remain unassigned.

      We appreciate the reviewer for bringing up this topic. We recognize the current limitation in the viral metagenomic landscape. Many viruses lack-family level classification due to ICTV taxonomic restructuring and the lack of reference genomes present in a database. A large fraction of viral sequences constitute “viral dark matter.” From a single metagenomic dataset, viral dark matter ranges from 60-90% of vOTUs. Within our own dataset, it is also dominated by viral dark matter. Between 60.9% (outlier/singles from vCONTact2) and 66.5% (unclassified from PhaGCN) of vOTUs are in this group. Although a substantial fraction of vOTUs is unknown, the remaining identifiable sequences provide some biological context, enable validation of sampling strategies and comparative analyses between samples. To complement vCONTact2 results, we utilized PhaGCN to classify each vOTU as a means to compare taxa derived from each sampled biome from one another and not to assess novelty of the metagenomic dataset. We aimed to provide measurable and interpretable context to our metagenomes. However, due to the substantial variability and uncertainty in the field and our dataset, we revised the text to highlight the large fraction of unclassified sequences and their implications.

      (12) Supplementary Figure 5: The legend does not clearly explain the two inner rings. One may correspond to GC skew, but this should be explicitly stated.

      Well spotted! We have made the appropriate corrections.

      (13) Line 325: The reference to "50 mL samples" is unclear-please specify which samples this refers to.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This important study uses a feedback-driven recurrent neural network framework to explore the dynamics underlying learning of BCI decoder perturbations. With convincing evidence, the authors demonstrate that behavioral learning trajectories that match those of primates learning within-manifold and outside-manifold perturbations are likely tied to the dynamical controllability of the network and input-driven learning. This work is likely to motivate a new generation of BCI and learning experiments combining large-scale neural recordings with latent dynamical systems analyses.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Gurnani et al. explore how dynamical properties of neural networks influence capacity for and mechanisms of learning. Specifically, they focus on Brain Computer Interface (BCI) learning, in which manipulations are applied to a decoder that maps neural activity onto computer cursors. This paradigm was introduced by Sadtler et al. 2014, and has become an influential part of the neuroscience motor learning literature. A particularly fascinating outcome of that body of work is the observation that "within-manifold" perturbations (WMPs), which preserve covariance structure in the neural population, are easier to learn than "outside-manifold" perturbations (OMPs), which break this. Since deep network parameter access is challenging (to say the least) in monkey experiments, the intuition for this split in learnability is ripe for modeling and theory work. Indeed, the authors here introduce a feedback-driven recurrent neural network model whose output drives a simulation of a neural decoder commonly used in BCI studies like the Sadtler paper. While there have now been several modeling studies exploring how neural networks could solve this task, the feedback control perspective gives the authors' new model an interesting niche. Overall, this is a thoroughly done and well-written modeling study, and a solid contribution to the literature on within- and outside-manifold perturbations.

      Strengths:

      Reframing the OMP and WMP learning from a feedback-driven dynamical systems perspective, not just a geometric one, is an interesting take. The controllability analysis (along with the clear difference in input-driven and recurrence-driven learning) is quite a cool result that helps better frame what might be happening in the primate brain during similar tasks.

      Weaknesses:

      Some of the more interesting aspects, especially the controllability) and the differences between input-driven and recurrence-driven learning could be further developed, either by showing more analyses or running more comparisons. A few sections could benefit from some additional clarity on the strength and significance of results.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The constraints on learning in the brain remain elusive. Using BCIs, Sadtler et al. demonstrated that the brain can rapidly learn new decoders that lie within the intrinsic neural manifold (short-term adaptation), while showing substantial difficulty learning decoders that lie outside the manifold. This finding suggests that neural manifolds impose constraints on learning. However, even among within-manifold decoders, there was considerable variability in learning rates that could not be explained solely by geometric factors.

      Here, Gurnani et al propose that, in addition to manifold structure, neural dynamics (i.e., the flow field across states) impose critical constraints on learning. To test this idea, the authors trained RNNs that received real-time feedback (e.g., position error signals) during a BCI task in which the network controlled a cursor. The authors showed that short-term adaptation to a new decoder is facilitated by plasticity in sensory inputs, and that pre-existing dynamics influence the speed of adaptation across different decoders. These findings may explain previously unresolved constraints observed in BCI learning and suggest an important role for neural dynamics in constraining sensorimotor learning in the brain.

      Strengths:

      Overall, the work is highly impactful and is likely to motivate a new generation of BCI and learning experiments combining large-scale neural recordings with latent dynamical systems analyses. The paper is clearly written, and I only have minor comments, primarily for clarification.

      Weaknesses:

      There are no major weaknesses. Please see below for minor comments.

      (1) If I understand correctly, most analyses do not distinguish between the preparatory phase and the movement phase. Given that the preparatory phase is largely controlled by feedforward input, I suspect that most of the dynamical constraints underlying learning variability arise during the movement phase. Is this correct? If so, could the authors clarify or directly test this distinction?

      (2) P4: Position vs. velocity decoders: It would be helpful to describe whether and how the choice of velocity versus position decoders influences whether perturbations are learnable, and whether input-driven constraints arising in this task are similar.

      (3) The variance criteria used to screen decoder perturbations may themselves covary with learning rate, behavioral asymmetry, and overlap with controllable subspaces. A quantification of this relationship would help contextualize the findings and inform the design of future BCI experiments.

      (4) To support the comparison between Figures 3 and 7, and the conclusion that Figure 3 better matches the experimental data, which is an important point of the manuscript, could the authors provide quantitative values from the experimental data (e.g., how large is the change in variance within oPCs, etc)?

      (5) Figure 8h: Is the variability in learning rates in models with different controller networks explained by the same dynamical constraints described in Figure 6? Demonstrating consistent dynamical constraints across model architectures would strengthen the paper's central conclusion.

      (6) Figure 8f: Why does feedforward controllability differ between conditions? This is mentioned in the text, but no explanation is provided.

    4. Author response:

      We thank the reviewers for such positive and constructive feedback, and for their enthusiasm about our use of controllability and dynamical systems perspectives to understand learning variability. We are glad to see that they believe this work will be “highly impactful” and “directly motivate new learning experiments”. We agree that these findings suggest new experimental tests of dynamical constraints on learning, in BCIs and motor control as well as other computations that depend on neural dynamics, such as decision-making tasks. Combined with new tools for data-driven identification of latent dynamics, we are excited to see how dynamical constraints can help understand learning outcomes across different tasks, brain areas, and individuals.

      Based on reviewer comments, we identified three sets of analyses that will improve the clarity and strength of evidence for our primary conclusions.

      (1) As the reviewers identified, a central contribution of this study is to show that continuous within-class variability becomes explainable by considering underlying dynamical structure. We realize this was insufficiently emphasized in Figure 6. All regression models included group-specific intercepts, so improvements from dynamical features reflect prediction beyond class-level differences. To quantify this directly, we compared against an intercept-only model and evaluated prediction of within-class residual variability (mean-subtracted). Geometric features did not improve performance beyond class means, whereas dynamical features significantly improved prediction (p<10<sup>-5</sup> for both behavioral measures). Moreover, only dynamical features predicted within-class residual variability (cross-validated R<sup>²</sup> = 0.19 and 0.30 for learning speed and hit-rate change, respectively; p < 10<sup-8</sup>). We will add these analyses and revise the text to clarify this point.

      Author response image 1.

      Cross-validated R<sup>2</sup> for (left) learning speed and (right) change in hit rate, for true behavioral outcomes (total variability, blue) and after subtracting class means for OMPs and WMPs (residual variability, orange).

      (2) We appreciate the reviewers’ comments to clarify what changes in neural structure are small, and to provide a quantitative comparison to changes observed in the primate BCI experiments.

      We referred to published analyses of within-manifold perturbations (WMPs) in the primate BCI experiments, which reported <10% reduction in fractional variance within the intrinsic manifold for most sessions (Golub et al., 2017). (No comparable analysis was reported for OMP sessions.) For adaptation to WMPs, changes in variance within the intrinsic manifold in RNN models with input plasticity closely matched experimental observations (75th percentile: 94% of pre-learning variance in the model versus 90% in data), whereas recurrent plasticity RNN models produced substantially larger departures (78%). In fact, the entire distribution with recurrent plasticity was shifted to larger changes than those observed in most primate WMP sessions. A second comparison based on covariance changes along BCI dimensions (Figure 5 in [1]) yielded a similar conclusion. The authors estimated ~5-20% changes in covariance along both the intuitive and perturbed decoder dimensions during WMP sessions. For our RNN models trained with input plasticity, we observed similar changes: changes along the perturbed decoder were <10% although changes along the intuitive decoder were ~40%. We borrowed the terminology of “small” from the experimental findings in [1], where comparisons were made to alternative learning hypotheses (with predicted changes as >10-fold higher). These analyses now provide more quantitative evidence that neural reorganization under input plasticity is largely consistent with primate neural data. We will add these comparisons as a supplementary figure in the revised manuscript.

      Author response image 2.

      Proportion of maps with normalized variance in intrinsic manifold (IM) above a certain minimum value. Results with training RNNs on WMPs, with either input plasticity (blue) or recurrent plasticity (orange), overlaid on primate data from Golub et al, 2017 (black). Dashed lines indicate the 75th percentile value.

      We agree with reviewers that under input plasticity, both statistical and dynamical changes are relatively modest, particularly when compared to the behavioral changes. Rather than focusing on the magnitude of these changes, our regression analyses in Figure 6 highlight that the dynamical changes are a better predictor of continuous variability of behavioral outcomes. Moreover, OMPs are misaligned with both the intrinsic manifold and the controllable subspace. Thus, mean OMP learning performance alone cannot disentangle the contribution of these different sources of misalignment. By showing that variability within each class is explained by considering dynamics (Figure 4, Figure 6), and using the dissociation between task manifold and controllable subspace by varying controller architecture (Figure 8), we provide evidence that dynamical constraints provide a more comprehensive picture of learning variability, beyond categorical differences.

      (3) Finally, we tested whether the same dynamical features explain learning variability across the alternative controller architectures in Figure 8. They remained predictive of learning speed (cross-validated R<sup>2</sup> of 0.35 and 0.33 for low-D and high-D controller networks respectively), supporting the generality of the proposed dynamical constraints. We will add this analysis to the revised manuscript.

      As per reviewer suggestions, we will also perform additional analyses to examine the relationship of learning outcomes to initial behavioral metrics for different decoders, assess flowfield changes during the preparatory phase, report the relevant statistics for stated comparisons, and clarify that learning with only one set of inputs (either feedforward or feedback) was poorer.  We will also clarify several points raised by the reviewers, including:

      (i) the compatibility of overlapping confidence intervals of WMP/OMP learning outcomes with prior experimental data in Sadtler et al, 2014;

      (ii) the distinction between flow-field changes in the full neural state space (Figure 5D) and along behavioral readout dimensions (Figure 5E);

      (iii) that autonomous dynamics contribute to controllability and how differences in pre-trained autonomous dynamics across controller architectures could indirectly vary feedforward controllability (Figure 8); and

      (iv) the relationship between controllability and reachable manifolds in position-decoder BCIs.

      References:

      (1) [Golub et al, 2017]   Golub, M.D., Sadtler, P.T., Oby, E.R., Quick, K.M., Ryu, S.I., Tyler-Kabara, E.C., Batista, A.P., Chase, S.M. and Yu, B.M., 2018. Learning by neural reassociation. Nature neuroscience, 21(4), pp.607-616.

      (2) [Sadtler et al, 2014]   Sadtler, P.T., Quick, K.M., Golub, M.D., Chase, S.M., Ryu, S.I., Tyler-Kabara, E.C., Yu, B.M. and Batista, A.P., 2014. Neural constraints on learning. Nature, 512(7515), pp.423-426.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This important study employed a multi-stage behavioural paradigm of increasing cognitive complexity to investigate the role of inhibitory interneurons in the medial prefrontal cortex (mPFC) in avoidance behaviour in mice. The authors used imaging and optogenetic techniques combined with this behavioural task to show that mPFC interneurons are necessary for encoding but not executing avoidance under threat. The evidence supporting these claims is compelling, and findings will be of interest to researchers in behavioural and systems neurosciences.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study investigates the role of the medial prefrontal cortex (mPFC) in generating goal-directed actions under threat, using a progressive behavioral paradigm, neural recordings, and optogenetic inhibition in mice. The authors demonstrate that while mPFC GABAergic neurons strongly encode cues, actions, and errors, particularly under high cognitive demand, this neural activity is not causally required for executing avoidance behaviors. By rigorously controlling for movement and arousal, the researchers found that much of the observed mPFC signaling actually reflects baseline behavioral states rather than the generation of the actions themselves. This dissociation between encoding and causality challenges traditional views of mPFC as an executive controller of action and provides a nuanced understanding of its role in evaluative and contextual processing.

      Strengths:

      The behavioral paradigm employed in this study is one of its greatest strengths, offering a rigorous, progressive, and well-controlled framework to dissect the neural mechanisms underlying avoidance under threat. This three-phase task design is particularly well-suited to tease apart the contributions of learning, discrimination, and cognitive load to both behavior and neural activity.

      By tracking movement (speed, rotations) and including it as a covariate in statistical models, the authors also underscore the need to control for movement and baseline activity when interpreting cortical signals, which is relevant for all studies of brain-behavior relationships, ensuring that behavioral changes are not due to general arousal or motor activity.

      Finally, the study combines multiple advanced techniques-fiber photometry, single-cell calcium imaging (miniscopes), and two distinct optogenetic inhibition methods-to provide a comprehensive look at both neural encoding and causal necessity.

      Comments on revised version.

      The authors adequately addressed all of the reviewers' comments and made great improvements to the manuscript, particularly enhancing the methods and figures to significantly improve clarity and readability.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript by Sajid et al. describes a comprehensive behavioral, imaging and optogenetic dataset investigating the role of the mPFC in avoidance and escape behaviors. Although many movement- and task-related variables are encoded by mPFC GABAergic neurons, the main conclusion is that they are unlikely to control behavioral output.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript is generally well executed and plausible in its conclusions. It provides an alternative viewpoint to many articles describing the involvement of mPFC to behavior, based on a complex multi-stage behavioral paradigm acquired and analyzed in an unbiased way.

      Weaknesses:

      This reviewer sees two weaknesses.

      (1) In some cases, the explained variance, marginal and conditional, is low, suggesting the models only modestly capture the complexity in the data.

      (2) The manuscript is challenging to read due to the comprehensive and unbiased presentation style.

      Comments on revised version.

      The authors did a good job at addressing the reviewers' comments. One minor additional suggestion is to add references for the statement in the last paragraph of the discussion for the mPFC lesion studies.

    4. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      The authors conclude that mPFC is not required for avoidance, based on the minimal behavioral effects of optogenetic inhibition. While this interpretation is supported by the data, the choice of viral constructs could lead to an underestimation of the mPFC's role for other reasons. First, the choice of viral constructs could lead to an underestimation of the mPFC's role for several reasons. Specifically, the efficacy of eArch3.0 inhibition was not verified beyond histology, and its non-cell-type-specific nature could lead to disinhibition or compensatory activity in downstream regions. Although the authors' use of visual cortex (VI) inhibition as a control suggests that broad cortical inhibition does not impair avoidance, subcortical compensation cannot be ruled out. Additionally, Vgat-ChR2 targets only GABAergic neurons, potentially missing glutamatergic contributions. Addressing these limitations in the Discussion section would strengthen the manuscript.

      We thank the reviewer for these points. First, although we did not perform direct electrophysiological verification of eArch3.0 efficacy in mPFC in the present study, this construct has been extensively validated in prior work and is widely used to produce robust neuronal inhibition. In our experiments, the lack of behavioral effect with eArch3.0 inhibition converged with the results obtained using the independent Vgat-ChR2 approach, which we directly validated, supporting the conclusion that mPFC inhibition does not impair avoidance under these conditions. Our results are also consistent with previous studies showing that mPFC lesions do not impair avoidance behavior.

      Second, we agree that manipulating mPFC activity will necessarily influence downstream circuits, including subcortical regions, given the interconnected nature of these networks. Our goal was to test whether inhibiting mPFC activity alters avoidance behavior, not to isolate it from its targets. In this context, the absence of behavioral effects indicates that avoidance behavior can be supported without mPFC activity. While compensation is always a possibility, this usually reveals some impairment while compensation occurs, but we did not observe those effects. Our results are consistent with the idea that subcortical circuits normally mediate these behaviors.

      Finally, regarding Vgat-ChR2, activating GABAergic neurons is a well-established approach to suppress cortical activity, as these interneurons provide strong inhibition onto local glutamatergic neurons. Thus, this manipulation is expected to broadly reduce excitatory output in cortex. Indeed, the robust suppression of cortical activity we observed with GABAergic activation makes it unlikely that major glutamatergic contributions were missed.

      These points are in the paper, including the Discussion.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      (1) There are few details on the linear mixed models in the methods. This section could be improved by including a mathematical description. More importantly, the reader never learns how accurately the models capture the data. Given that most conclusions rely on the models, it seems central to address this point carefully. For example, what is the explained variance, marginal, and conditional? Were the nested models compared to non-nested ones (e.g., AIC), what are the specific outputs of the likelihood ratio tests briefly mentioned in the methods?

      Model structure was defined a priori by the experimental design and hypotheses rather than selected through model comparison, but we verified the contribution of key model components (e.g., covariates, interactions, and random effects) using likelihood ratio tests comparing models. Regarding model performance, we now report for each model the marginal and conditional R<sup>2</sup> values (Nakagawa), which quantify variance explained by fixed effects alone and by the full mixed model including random effects. In addition, likelihood ratio test results for all fixed effects and interactions (χ<sup>2</sup> statistics) were already reported in the manuscript.

      (2) For several figures, there is a disconnect with the main text, in the sense that it is difficult to understand how statements in the main text connect with specific figure panels or bars in their graphs. This is particularly the case for the most complex figures, e.g., Figures 3, 4, and their supplements. It would be beneficial to introduce subfigure labels (A1, etc) and state explicitly in the main text what figure panel is described (in parentheses). Alternatively, breakdown the figures into multiple ones, decreasing ambiguity. This is important because it will help the reader better assess the strength of the results.

      We have significantly revised the manuscript to reduce ambiguity and thank the reviewer for each of their (28) requests, which we have implemented in full. We also added additional figure references to the Results to assist with readability. This has significantly improved clarity and readability.

      (3) It does not appear that the code and data used to produce the figures are made available. That would be very beneficial, given the complexity of the analysis and dataset collection procedures. It would also help readers better understand the results and probe their validity.

      As usual, we will share the full dataset in the VOR at Dryad after the revision is completed.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      The main weakness, in my view, lies in the Results section. In the figures, the authors do not present any raw data, and the plots are shown as mean {plus minus} SEM without displaying the distribution of individual data points.

      We thank the reviewer for the recommendations. Individual data points are shown where appropriate (e.g., Fig. 1). However, most of our analyses involve repeated-measures, hierarchical data with multiple levels (cells and sessions nested within animals), where simple point overlays can be misleading or difficult to interpret without explicit linking across levels. We therefore use mean ± SEM visualizations for clarity in these summary figures, while preserving the full hierarchical structure in the statistical analysis through mixed-effects models. All data will be made available in the VOR to allow full inspection of the underlying distributions.

      It is both a strength and a weakness that the authors do not attempt to guide the reader through the Results section and instead present the findings with very little emphasis on the key outcomes of the GLM. While this approach is arguably the most transparent way to report results, it also makes the section quite difficult to follow and may discourage readers.

      I would recommend rewriting the Results section to make it more accessible to a broader audience. A similar issue applies to the figures: presenting all plots reflects a commendable commitment to transparency, but it would greatly benefit from a clearer narrative. As it stands, it is difficult to grasp the message of each figure by simply browsing through them.

      The full description (complexity) of the models is entirely in the legends and supplemental figures. This was done to make the results easier to follow. We have made all the changes noted above to facilitate readability while assuring there is enough transparency to assess the data. We think readability has significantly improved.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Below are a few specific suggestions related to the main weaknesses mentioned above.

      (1) P4 L9: The sentence starting with "However, most ..." sounds more like a statement than a contrast with the previous sentence. Therefore, please delete "However" and please add references to justify the statement.

      Done.

      (2) P8: Definition of movement peaks. It would be great to have three videos illustrating the mouse behavior in the three different movement peaks. This would allow the reader to better understand the differences between no peaks 3 sec prior, more than 5 seconds, and one example that does not fit these two categories. In addition, what percentage of all peaks to the no peaks 3 sec prior and more than 5 sec represent?

      We added the percentages. The “3 sec prior” represent ~23% and the “5 sec” represent ~31%. However, we do not think adding a single video of one movement per these 3 cases would be useful as the dataset is composed of thousands of these movements.

      (3) P8: Last paragraph. When you state that you performed a linear fit between DF/F and movement, do you mean speed? In addition, the statement "integrating both signals over a 200 ms window" is incomplete. How is the window selected? Is the window 200 ms around movement onset or movement peak speed?

      Yes, the movement variable used in the linear fit corresponds to speed. Regarding the 200 ms window, this analysis does not focus on specific behavioral events such as movement onset or peak speed. Instead, both ΔF/F and speed signals were segmented into consecutive 200 ms windows across the entire recording session, and the linear relationship was computed across these paired segments. Thus, the analysis captures the overall relationship between neural activity and ongoing movement, rather than eventaligned dynamics. We have revised the text to clarify both the use of speed and the implementation of the 200 ms window.

      (4) P14: Discussion of AA19 and AA39 tasks: It would be helpful to clearly specify what percentage of actions you would expect given no learning, is it the 23% action dashed line indicated in the top panel of Figure 2B?

      The expected percentage of actions under no learning is not fixed, as it depends on the rate of spontaneous (non–cue-driven) crossings. In these tasks, we estimate this baseline using behavior during the noUS condition, where the action rate is ~23% (Fig. 2B). In the AA19 and especially AA39 tasks, this baseline decreases because spontaneous inter-trial crossings (ITCs) are progressively reduced, leading to lower expected action rates under no-learning conditions. Thus, the 23% baseline derived from noUS is lower in the AA19/39 tasks. In other studies, we explicitly included NoCS (no-cue) trials to estimate chance performance; however, in the present design we rely on the noUS baseline and the observed changes in ITC rate. We have clarified this point in the text.

      (5) P15 L2: "Considering tone intensity (Fig. 2B), CS1 avoids latencies increased at medium and high intensities but not a low intensity." This is confusing. Are you referring to the AA39 triangles under CS1 in the middle panel, left? They are all above the dashed reference line. So the plot seems to contradict the statement. If you are referring to AA19, the red dots also seem to show the opposite of the statement.

      The dashed reference line reflects latency during the noUS condition and is included for visual reference; however, these values are not directly comparable to those in the AA tasks, as noUS latencies are largely unconstrained and reflect baseline behavior rather than learned responding. The statement in the text refers specifically to changes across AA conditions, consistent with our analysis approach throughout the manuscript, where values are compared to the immediately preceding condition. In this case, we are referring to AA39 (triangles) relative to AA19 (circles). Under this comparison, CS1 avoidance latencies increase at medium and high intensities, but not at low intensity, consistent with the statistical contrasts. We have revised the text to clarify the points.

      (6) P17: "Movement and neural measures subtract the baseline from the other three windows at a trial level." Do you mean to say that for each measure, the baseline was subtracted? How is baseline defined (over which time window)?

      The baseline is defined in that same paragraph as the −0.5 to 0 s pre-CS window. To improve clarity, we have revised the text to explicitly restate this definition in the sentence describing baseline subtraction.

      (7) P17: "Fig. 2-Supplement 2A,B shows model-derived marginal means of movement averaged across tone intensities." Some explanation needs to be provided, since the previous figures show a dependence of behavior on tone intensity. Are you doing this based on Fig. 2-S1?

      Yes, these results are derived from the same model of the full data shown in Fig. 2–S1. In this particular analysis, tone intensity was included in the model but not retained when computing marginal means and contrasts, effectively averaging across intensity levels. The rationale for this approach is that tone intensity was primarily used to increase behavioral variability, particularly error rates, which are otherwise low in this task. Averaging across intensity therefore improves statistical power and allows us to more clearly isolate the effects of the primary factors of interest. We have clarified this point in the text.

      (8) P18: "Orienting magnitude was strongly dependent on tone intensity...". However, in Figure 2-S2, there is no information about tone intensity. So how is the reader supposed to see this? Same issue on P19 when discussing the action window. Generally, the description of Figure 2-S1 and S2 is difficult to follow and should be improved. It is not clear that all panels are referred to in the text.

      We have revised the start of the Movement section to clarify how tone intensity is treated across analyses and figures. Specifically, tone intensity is included as a factor in all statistical models; however, for clarity of presentation, it is sometimes collapsed in figures to reduce dimensionality and to emphasize other task-related factors. This manipulation was introduced primarily to increase behavioral variability (particularly error rates), thereby improving sensitivity for estimating the effects of the other task variables.

      We have also clarified when we reference Fig. 2–S2 legend that, although intensity is not displayed in the figure for visualization purposes, it is included in the underlying model and its effects are reported in the supplement.

      (9) P22, 23: Windows are mentioned, but not defined or indicated in figures.

      We have clarified in the text that the same time windows defined for movement analyses (baseline, orienting, action, and from-action) were also used for the neural analyses.

      (10) P22: "Covariates were standardized within each window so that estimated marginal means reflected ΔF/F at average covariate values." It is unclear what was done exactly. What do you mean by "standardized"? Maybe give an example here and elaborate in the methods.

      By “standardized within each window,” we mean that covariates were z-scored within each analysis window (i.e., each covariate was transformed to have a mean of 0 and a standard deviation of 1 within that window). This ensures that estimated marginal means correspond to ΔF/F evaluated at the average covariate values within each window. We have clarified this in the Methods and Results.

      (11) P24-25: Indicating spurious action on Figure 3-S2 (and in Figure 3) would help the reader follow the argument in the main text.

      We clarified this in the legends by indicating that actions not classified as AA, PA, Escape, or PA Error are spurious actions.

      (12) P25: "After controlling for ..., but this includes the effects of aversive stimulation." The second part of this sentence was not clear.

      We have clarified this sentence to indicate that avoidance errors are followed by aversive stimulation (i.e., errors are punished).

      (13) P34L3: "Classs" -> "Class".

      Fixed.

      (14) P42 top paragraph: There are two references to Figure 5-S1 panel D, but there is no panel D on the figure.

      Fixed.

      (15) P57: The sentence starting with "Random effects were specified ..." is very difficult to follow.

      We have revised this sentence to improve clarity by separating the description of the random-effects structure from the model syntax.

      (16) P57: The windows analyzed are finally defined at the bottom of this page. The information also needs to be included early in the results to improve comprehension.

      This is now included in the main text when windows are first used in the movement section.

      (17) P58: Several R packages are mentioned by name, but without specifying that they are R packages, which would facilitate reading.

      We added R.

      (18) P58 top paragraph: "Tuckey's correction", do you mean "Tukey's HSD test"?

      We thank the reviewer for noting this. We used Holm-adjusted p-values for multiple comparisons (as implemented in emmeans) and have revised the text.

      (19) P63: "features extracted from F/F" do you mean "DF/F"?

      Yes, fixed.

      (20) Figure 1B speed plots: it is not possible to visualize the lines at the movement peak because they overlap completely. You can either add an inset on the left of the peak (for each panel), magnifying that region, or play with the transparency of the traces to improve visibility. There is a similar issue in Figure 5A, B. (Alternatively, if it is not possible to solve the issue graphically, explicitly state that traces overlap.)

      We have fixed this by making some traces dashed in Figure1 and 1-S1, which reveals the underlying traces. We also stated that the peak speed completely overlaps. In Figure 5, we stated that traces overlap as expected; transparency or dashing does not work well with the colors used in Figure 5 and in fact the overlap emphasizes the similarity of the movements.

      (21) Legend 1A: abbreviation CCF not defined. Is it anterior to the left? Abbreviation WM not defined. The right panels are unclear. The legend states that they show a schematic of the location of the optical fibers, but that was not clear. Do the dots indicate the location of the fibers? Is the green region indicative of V1? Same for dark gray in the mPFC panel. What are the lighter grey regions and the blue region? Does 'lateral' mean 'lateral from midline'? Please clarify these points.

      CCF is defined in Methods, and the typesetting process will adjust abbreviations as needed per the journal. We have defined MW and clarified all the other points in the legend.

      (22) 1B: "peaks taken at a fixed interval > 5 s", this is a bit confusing. If the interval is fixed, the exact time interval should be given. If it is > 5 s, then this suggests that it is not fixed. Do you mean "at intervals > 5 s"?

      Yes, fixed.

      (23) Figure 1-S1C: is the area the integral of the z-scored DF/F above zero DF/F? If so, it should have units of seconds (integral over dt of a dimensionless variable). Similarly, the Peak is a z-score value? In addition, is the time to peak in seconds? What is zero? Peak time of movement?

      We thank the reviewer for raising these points. We have clarified the terminology in the text and figure. Specifically, “area” was inaccurately labeled and refers to the mean z-scored ΔF/F within each analysis window (not a time integral). Peak values correspond to the maximum z-scored ΔF/F within the window, and time to peak is reported in seconds relative to the alignment point. We have also clarified the definition of time zero and included these definitions in Methods.

      (24) Figure 2-S1: It is not clear if this figure is obtained by averaging across all animals. Please explain in the legend.

      We clarified that values represent averages across mice.

      (25) Figure 2-S2: Are the speeds in A and B in units of cm/s (vertical axis)? This needs to be indicated.

      We have clarified in the figure legend that movement speed is expressed in cm/s.

      (26) Figure 5A, scale bar: It looks like a Delta is missing in front of F because the label reads 0.5 F/F instead of 0.5 DF/F. I am unclear why there are three colored traces for the speed panels. If the colors denote neuron classes, does this mean they were recorded in different sessions, allowing the authors to distinguish activation speed for each class separately?

      We fixed the scale bar typo. The speed traces in the bottom panels are shown to illustrate that movement is highly similar across activation types within each avoidance mode, indicating that the observed large differences in neural activity cannot be attributed to differences in movement. Minor differences in the speed traces arise because activation types are composed of neurons that can be recorded in the same or different sessions, and each activation type may not be present in every session. We added several sentences to this section that should fully clarify the issue.

      (27) Figure 4-S1 legend B: Please indicate why the two panels are missing for the PA case (for the confused reader).

      We have clarified in the legend that panels are not shown for correct CS2 passive avoids because these trials do not involve an action, and therefore from-action alignment cannot be defined.

      (28) Figure 5-S A, B: Units missing for speed.

      Fixed.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      I cannot assess the scientific validity of the study design as it is too far away from my direct field of expertise. But I found the authors' arguments convincing, and the results sound pretty consistent with the little I know of the field. The recording methods are good and the statistical analysis robust. So my only recommendation for the authors would be to work on the figures to improve clarity.

      Thank you. We have introduced various changes that we hope will facilitate readability for a wider audience while preserving the necessary details.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This important study demonstrates that paternal diet influences not only testicular morphology but also placental and fetal development, supporting a role for paternal contributions to offspring health. The study also considers potential links between the microbiome and male reproductive health. By combining transcriptomic and histological analyses across multiple tissues, the evidence supporting the central conclusions of the study is convincing.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      [Editors' note: this version has been assessed by the Reviewing Editor without further input from the original reviewers. The authors have addressed the comments raised in the previous round of review.]

      Summary:

      Morgan et al. studied how paternal dietary alteration influenced testicular phenotype, placental and fetal growth using a mouse model of paternal low protein diet (LPD) or Western Diet (WD) feeding, with or without supplementation of methyl-donors and carriers (MD). They found diet- and sex-specific effects of paternal diet alteration. All experimental diets decreased paternal body weight and the number of spermatogonial stem cells, while fertility was unaffected. WD males (irrespective of MD) showed signs of adiposity and metabolic dysfunction, abnormal seminiferous tubules and dysregulation of testicular genes related to chromatin homeostasis. Conversely, LPD induced abnormalities in the early placental cone, fetal growth restriction and placental insufficiency, which was partly ameliorated by MD. The paternal diets changed placental transcriptome in a sex-specific manner and led to a loss of sexual dimorphism in the placental transcriptome. These data provide a novel insight on how paternal health can affect the outcome of pregnancies, which is often overlooked in prenatal care.

      Strengths:

      The authors have performed a well-designed study using commonly used mouse models of paternal underfeeding (low protein) and overfeeding (Western diet). They performed comprehensive phenotyping at multiple timepoints including of the fathers, the early placenta and late gestation feto-placental unit. The inclusion of both testicular and placental morphological and transcriptomic analysis is a powerful non-biased tool for such exploratory observational studies. The authors describe changes in testicular gene expression revolving around histone (methylation) pathways that are linked to altered offspring development (H3.3 and H3K4), which is in line with hypothesised paternal contributions to offspring health. The authors report sex differences in control placentas that mimic those in humans, providing potential for translatability of the findings. The exploration of sexual dimorphism (often overlooked) and its absence in response to dietary modification is novel and contributes to the evidence-base for the inclusion of both sexes in developmental studies.

      Comments on revised version:

      The authors have done a great job addressing my concerns. The description of the data analysis and the figures are now much clearer. The inclusion of the potential links between the microbiome and male reproductive fitness is informative and improves the flow of the discussion.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors investigated the effects of a low-protein diet (LPD) and a high sugar- and fat-rich diet (Western diet, WD) on paternal metabolic and reproductive parameters and feto-placental development and gene expression. They did not observe significant effects on fertility; however, they reported gut microbiota dysbiosis, alterations in testicular morphology, and severe detrimental effects on spermatogenesis. In addition, they examined whether the adverse effects of these diets could be prevented by supplementation with methyl donors. Although LPD and WD showed limited negative effects on paternal reproductive health (with no impairment of reproductive success), the consequences on fetal and placental development were evident and, as reported in many previous studies, were sex-dependent.

      Strengths:

      This study is of high quality and addresses a research question of great global relevance, particularly in light of the growing concern regarding the exponential increase in metabolic disorders, such as obesity and diabetes, worldwide. The work highlights the importance of a balanced paternal diet in regulating the expression of metabolic genes in the offspring at both fetal and placental levels. The identification of genes involved in metabolic pathways that may influence offspring health after birth is highly valuable, strengthening the manuscript and emphasizing the need to further investigate long-term outcomes in adult offspring.

      The histological analyses performed on paternal testes clearly demonstrate diet-induced damage. Moreover, although placental morphometric analyses and detailed histological assessments of the different placental zones did not reveal significant differences between groups, their inclusion is important. These results indicate that even in the absence of overt placental phenotypic changes, placental function may still be altered, with potential consequences for fetal programming.

      Comments on revised version:

      The authors have adequately addressed all my previous comments.

    4. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Morgan et al. studied how paternal dietary alteration influenced testicular phenotype, placental and fetal growth using a mouse model of paternal low protein diet (LPD) or Western Diet (WD) feeding, with or without supplementation of methyl-donors and carriers (MD). They found diet- and sex-specific effects of paternal diet alteration. All experimental diets decreased paternal body weight and the number of spermatogonial stem cells, while fertility was unaffected. WD males (irrespective of MD) showed signs of adiposity and metabolic dysfunction, abnormal seminiferous tubules and dysregulation of testicular genes related to chromatin homeostasis. Conversely, LPD induced abnormalities in the early placental cone, fetal growth restriction and placental insufficiency, which was partly ameliorated by MD. The paternal diets changed placental transcriptome in a sex-specific manner and led to a loss of sexual dimorphism in the placental transcriptome. These data provide a novel insight on how paternal health can affect the outcome of pregnancies, which is often overlooked in prenatal care.

      Strengths:

      The authors have performed a well-designed study using commonly used mouse models of paternal underfeeding (low protein) and overfeeding (Western diet). They performed comprehensive phenotyping at multiple timepoints including of the fathers, the early placenta and late gestation feto-placental unit. The inclusion of both testicular and placental morphological and transcriptomic analysis is a powerful non-biased tool for such exploratory observational studies. The authors describe changes in testicular gene expression revolving around histone (methylation) pathways that are linked to altered offspring development (H3.3 and H3K4), which is in line with hypothesised paternal contributions to offspring health. The authors report sex differences in control placentas that mimic those in humans, providing potential for translatability of the findings. The exploration of sexual dimorphism (often overlooked) and its absence in response to dietary modification is novel and contributes to the evidence-base for the inclusion of both sexes in developmental studies.

      Comments on revised version:

      The authors have done a great job addressing my concerns. The description of the data analysis and the figures are now much clearer. The inclusion of the potential links between the microbiome and male reproductive fitness is informative and improves the flow of the discussion.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors investigated the effects of a low-protein diet (LPD) and a high sugar- and fat-rich diet (Western diet, WD) on paternal metabolic and reproductive parameters and feto-placental development and gene expression. They did not observe significant effects on fertility; however, they reported gut microbiota dysbiosis, alterations in testicular morphology, and severe detrimental effects on spermatogenesis. In addition, they examined whether the adverse effects of these diets could be prevented by supplementation with methyl donors. Although LPD and WD showed limited negative effects on paternal reproductive health (with no impairment of reproductive success), the consequences on fetal and placental development were evident and, as reported in many previous studies, were sex-dependent.

      Strengths:

      This study is of high quality and addresses a research question of great global relevance, particularly in light of the growing concern regarding the exponential increase in metabolic disorders, such as obesity and diabetes, worldwide. The work highlights the importance of a balanced paternal diet in regulating the expression of metabolic genes in the offspring at both fetal and placental levels. The identification of genes involved in metabolic pathways that may influence offspring health after birth is highly valuable, strengthening the manuscript and emphasizing the need to further investigate long-term outcomes in adult offspring.

      The histological analyses performed on paternal testes clearly demonstrate diet-induced damage. Moreover, although placental morphometric analyses and detailed histological assessments of the different placental zones did not reveal significant differences between groups, their inclusion is important. These results indicate that even in the absence of overt placental phenotypic changes, placental function may still be altered, with potential consequences for fetal programming.

      Comments on revised version:

      The authors have adequately addressed all my previous comments.

      We would like to thank the Editor and Reviewers for their consideration and thoughtful comments.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      It was a little difficult seeing exactly what had changed in the manuscript without going back to the original version as not all changes were marked yellow in the revised version. In future, I would recommend clearly labelling all changes to aid the referee.

      We apologise to the reviewer for the difficulty in seeing where the changes had been made. We acknowledge their comments for subsequent manuscripts and thank them for their time, consideration and comments.

      Small comments:

      (1) I noted the description of the statistical analysis now includes the addition of paternal age/diet duration in the generalised mixed model for the late gestation cohort. Was this also done for the early gestation cohort? If not, why not?

      For the data presented in Figure 6, each data point was obtained from a separate male. As such, we were not able to factor in male effects, as no male sired more than one litter (Figure 6A). Additionally, only one conceptus per male was analysed for ECP area and development meaning paternal age effects could not be accounted for.

      (2) The legend of Figure 2 states that "Data were analysed using either a one-way ANOVA with Holm-Sidak post hoc tests for multiple comparison respectively". Is some text missing here?

      We thank the reviewer for spotting this typographical error. This has now been corrected and reads “Data were analysed using a one-way ANOVA with Holm-Sidak post hoc tests for multiple comparison”.

      (3) Figure 1 remains low resolution in the reviewer's copy. If possible, it would be good to upload a higher resolution figure during production of the article.

      We apologies that the resolution of this figure was still low for the Reviewer. We have checked the dpi and it is 300x300. However, we will ensure the quality is as high as possible during production.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      One minor remaining issue: the caption of Figure 3 still contains the phrase "non-fasting metabolic status", which should be deleted from this sentence.

      We thank the reviewer for spotting this typographical mistake. This has now been corrected.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This study presents a valuable finding on the direct cytotoxic effects of DuoHexaBody-CD37 in diffuse large B-cell lymphoma through antibody clustering, independent of complement. The central findings are supported by solid evidence, although some mechanistic details, including the specific Fc receptor requirements for crosslinking-mediated cytotoxicity, remain unresolved. As the findings are based primarily on in vitro models, further validation would be required to support broader translational conclusions. The previous review comments were addressed by the authors and have improved the work.

    2. Joint Public Review:

      [Editor's Note: The previous reviewers comments were felt to be addressed by the reviewers and myself and have improved the work.]

      In this study, the authors suggest that DuoHexaBody-CD37, a biparatopic CD37-targeting antibody, can induce direct cytotoxicity in diffuse large B-cell lymphoma (DLBCL) cells through antibody clustering and SHP-1 activation, independent of complement. They further propose that DuoHexaBody-CD37 inhibits cytokine-mediated pro-survival signalling, suggesting a broader role for CD37-directed therapy in disrupting tumour supportive signalling networks.

      A strength of the study is the systematic in vitro characterisation of signalling responses to DuoHexaBody-CD37 across both malignant and normal B-cells. The inclusion of phosphoproteomic profiling and mutant constructs provides mechanistic detail, and the findings may be of interest to researchers working on antibody therapeutics in lymphoma.

      However, the evidence supporting key mechanistic processes - particularly the specific subtype requirement for Fc receptor crosslinking - is incomplete and would benefit from further functional validation. While CD37 has been explored previously as a therapeutic target, this study does add mechanistic insight into direct cytotoxicity and cytokine modulation. Nevertheless, the exclusive reliance on in vitro systems makes the translational relevance unclear.

      Overall, the study provides valuable insight into CD37-mediated signalling in lymphoma cells, but the evidence remains incomplete to support broader conclusions about therapeutic impact. The additional mechanistic data included during revision are informative, but the precise basis of the observed cytotoxic effects remains incompletely defined.

    3. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Joint Public Review:

      In this study, the authors suggest that DuoHexaBody-CD37, a biparatopic CD37-targeting antibody, can induce direct cytotoxicity in diffuse large B-cell lymphoma (DLBCL) cells through antibody clustering and SHP-1 activation, independent of complement. They further propose that DuoHexaBody-CD37 inhibits cytokinemediated pro-survival signalling, suggesting a broader role for CD37-directed therapy in disrupting tumour supportive signalling networks.

      A strength of the study is the systematic in vitro characterisation of signalling responses to DuoHexaBodyCD37 across both malignant and normal B-cells. The inclusion of phosphoproteomic profiling and mutant constructs provides mechanistic detail, and the findings may be of interest to researchers working on antibody therapeutics in lymphoma.

      However, the evidence supporting key mechanistic processes - particularly the role of SHP-1 in mediating cytotoxicity and the requirement for Fc receptor crosslinking - is incomplete and would benefit from further functional validation. While CD37 has been explored previously as a therapeutic target, this study does add mechanistic insight into direct cytotoxicity and cytokine modulation. Nevertheless, the exclusive reliance on in vitro systems makes the translational relevance unclear. Overall, the study provides valuable insight into CD37-mediated signalling in lymphoma cells, but the evidence remains incomplete to support broader conclusions about therapeutic impact.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      In the manuscript, Singh and colleagues reveal a new mechanism via which DuoHexaBody-CD37 induces DLBCL cytotoxicity, which is independent of external factors, such as the effector cells and the complement system. As cited by the authors, the induction of B cell death has previously been demonstrated for antibodies directed against B cells, including anti-CD37 (otlertuzumab). Furthermore, the majority of these observations are made using in vitro systems, and it is not clear if this phenomenon happens in vivo or not?

      Thank you for pointing this out. We would like to refer to previous report that have demonstrated potent anti-tumor activity of DuoHexaBody-CD37 in vivo in cell line- and patient-derived xenograft models from different B-cell malignancy subtypes [PMID: 32341336]. Moreover, DuoHexaBody-CD37 ex vivo activity has been shown in primary tumor cell samples from a large cohort of newly diagnosed (ND) and relapsed/refractory (RR) patients with a broad range of B-cell malignancies, including chronic lymphocytic leukemia (CLL) and B-cell non-Hodgkin lymphoma, including diffuse large B-cell lymphoma (DLBCL) [PMID: 33324950]. We refer to these data in the introduction.

      The presented data suggest that DuoHexaBody-CD37 relies on Fc crosslinking for its optimal cytotoxic activity. Investigating which FcγR is needed for this purpose would have been useful, as FcγRIIb, for instance, has been shown to be important in supporting the therapeutic function of mAbs like anti-CD40.

      We thank you for this suggestion. To further investigate the role of specific FcγRs in effector cell-mediated Fc cross-linking, PBMC-mediated direct cytotoxicity was compared across various immune cell subsets: B cells (FcγRIIb), NK cells (FcγRIIIa, IIc), monocytes (FcγRI, IIa/b, IIIb), and T cells (no confirmed FcγR expression). Notably, all immune cells subsets expressing FcγRs exhibited similar or enhanced cytotoxicity against DLBCL cells compared to the total PBMC pool. These results indicate that DuoHexaBody-CD37 induced killing is independent of specific FcγR subtypes. We have added these new data to new Figure 1C.

      Specific comments:

      (1) Line 92:93: The authors should also cite the following reference for rituximab: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19620786/ .

      We have added this reference to the revised paper (ref. 31).

      (2) Figure 1 and 2: Since cell death was only observed in the presence of crosslinking in Figure 1, Figure 2 should also investigate the clustering and internalization of CD37 in the presence of the same secondary antibody. It is likely that DuoHexaBody-CD37 will induce receptor internalization upon crosslinking.

      To further investigate internalization, we compared the surface availability of CD37 with and without Fc-mediated crosslinking of DuoHexaBody-CD37 across cell lines. Little to no decrease in the surface availability of CD37 upon Fc-mediated crosslinking (new Supplementary Figure 2) was observed.

      In addition, we performed cluster analysis studies in lymphoma cells treated with DuoHexabody-CD37 in the absence and presence of Fc-crosslinking (and respective isotype controls). We observed that DuoHexabodyCD37 by itself was already sufficient to induce CD37 clustering, which was further enhanced by Fc-crosslinking (new Figure 2A, B).

      (3) Figure 3A: the Y-axes should be clearly labelled.

      Done.

      (4) Figure 6: What is the reason for the selective use of different cell lines in Figure 6? Additionally, only 1 donor has been used for the IL-6 analysis.

      The reviewer is indeed correct in noticing that only one cell line has been used for the IL-6 analysis. We observed that HBL-1 cells were the only cell line that were sensitive to IL-6 treatment, in contrast to IL-4 and IL-21. We have added this sentence to the discussion to explain this better: “p-STAT3 downregulation upon DuoHexaBody-CD37 treatment in presence of IL-6 requires further investigation in additional IL-6-responsive cell lines, as HBL1 was the only IL-6-responsive lymphoma cell line tested in this study.”

      The data shown in Figure 6 are results from at least three independent experiments (each dot is an independent experiment, not a donor).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Singh et al uncover a novel mechanism of action for the DuoHexaBody-CD37 against DLBCL, whereby it is shown to induce direct cytotoxicity independent of complement and to activate the phosphatase SHP-1. DuoHexaBody-CD37 is also shown to reduce cytokine induced JAK/STAT signalling in DLBCL cells.

      Strengths:

      The authors provide novel insight into CD37 targeting across normal B cells, DLBCL and Burkitt lymphoma cells, which have the potential to inform clinical translation.

      Weaknesses:

      The mechanisms behind differences in signalling and apoptosis between normal B cells, Burkitt lymphoma, and DLBCL cells with CD37 targeting require further clarification. In particular, the contribution of SHP-1 to this effect is not clear and indeed is increased in both normal b cells and DLBCL cells.

      Key points that require addressing are below:

      (1) Viability of Burkitt lines was less affected than DLBCL in Figure 1- this should be compared with surface CD37 expression in these same lines to determine whether this accounts for the effect. This difference is a key finding for clinical translation.  

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion and we have now performed flow cytometry analysis across DLBCL and Burkitt cell lines upon staining with two different anti-CD37 antibodies (WR17, M-B371) to quantify membrane CD37 expression (new Supplementary Figure 1B). These data show that CD37 expression levels are not directly related to DuoHexaBody-CD37 mediated cytotoxicity in the studied B cell lines. 

      (2) pSHP1 is increased in both normal B cells (lines 169-171, Figure 3C) and DLBCL and yet the authors state specific upregulation of pSHP1 in DLBCL as a reason for induced cytotoxicity in DLBCL (lines 183-185). This requires clarification and experimental confirmation. The authors should investigate normal B cells in the cytotoxicity assays as in Figure 1 for comparison. The authors should also confirm the importance of SHP-1 in this apoptosis process using specific SHP pharmacological agents, which are commercially available.

      To analyze the role of SHP1 mediated signaling in induced cytotoxicity of DLBCL, SHP1 knock outs (KO) were generated in HBL1 and OciLy7 cell lines using CRISPR Cas9 technology (new Supplementary figure 5A). The wild type and SHP-1 KO cell lines were then compared for differences in cytotoxicity after treatment with DuoHexaBody-CD37 with and without Fc-crosslinker. No differences in cytotoxicity were observed between the wild type and knock out cell lines (new Supplementary figure 5B), indicating that DuoHexaBody-CD37induced SHP1 signaling does not play a direct role in the increased cytotoxicity. We have added these new data to the results and rephrased the role of SHP-1 in the revised manuscript. 

      (3) It would be informative to assess caspase activation and PARP cleavage across normal B cells, DLBCL and Burkitt under these conditions for clarity on apoptosis induction.

      We thank the reviewer and we agree it would be informative to confirm apoptosis induction in the cell lines upon DuoHexaBody-CD37 treatment. We addressed this question by flow cytometric analysis of different lymphoma cell lines stained with/without Annexin V (apoptosis marker) and 7AAD (late apoptotic/necrotic marker) in presence or absence of DuoHexaBody-CD37, with and without Fc-crosslinking. These experiments demonstrate that Fc-crosslinking DuoHexaBody-CD37 leads to the induction of apoptosis across DLBCL cell lines (new Supplementary Figure 1A).

      (4) The regulation of JAK/STAT signalling by SHP-1 should be mentioned in the introduction and discussion as this is a key finding of the manuscript.

      Based on the new data on the role of SHP-1 (Suppl. Fig. 5), we have rephrased the text on the SHP1 in the discussion of the revised paper: “DuoHexaBody-CD37 treatment also led to an increase in SHP1 mediated signaling, however we could not confirm a direct role of SHP1 signaling in DuoHexaBody-CD37-mediated cytotoxicity. DLBCL cells may undergo signal rewiring upon SHP1 knockdown by altered levels of p‑AKT, p‑STAT3, and p‑STAT6, or SHP2 may compensate for the loss of SHP1. It is currently unclear what the biological implications are of the increased SHP1 signaling observed upon treatment with DuoHexaBody-CD37 in DLBCL cells.”

      (5) The authors state that DuoHexabody-37 is particularly effective at downregulating STAT signalling in the presence of IL-6 (lines 302-303) however, this is not statistically significant in the results section. There is a trend for a reduction, however, further experimental repeats would clarify this.

      We agree with the reviewer, and rewrote the text on IL-6 in the discussion: “p-STAT3 downregulation upon DuoHexaBody-CD37 treatment in presence of IL-6 requires further investigation in additional IL-6-responsive cell lines, as HBL1 was the only IL-6-responsive lymphoma cell line tested in this study.”

    1. eLife Assessment

      This valuable study re-evaluates a published simulation model on the role of heterozygote advantage in shaping MHC diversity. By modifying key modeling assumptions, the author argues that the original conclusions depend on a narrow and potentially unrealistic parameter range. While the work is in principle solid, the robustness of this claim is viewed differently by the reviewers. The manuscript further proposes an alternative modeling framework in which expansion of the MHC gene family allows homozygotes to outperform heterozygotes, thereby challenging the idea that heterozygote advantage alone can account for high allelic diversity at MHC loci. The topic is highly relevant for eco-immunology and evolutionary genetics, although it is not clear yet how well the model generalizes to other genes with different patterns of haplotype diversity in the population and different degrees of heterozygous advantage.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      The manuscript "Heterozygote advantage cannot explain MHC diversity, but MHC diversity can explain heterozygote advantage" explores two topics. First, it is claimed that the recently published by Mattias Siljestam and Claus Rueffler conclusion (in the following referred to as [SR] for brevity) that heterozygote advantage explains MHC diversity does not withstand an even very slight change in ecological parameters. Second, a modified model that allows an expansion of MHC gene family shows that homozygotes outperform heterozygotes. This is an important topic and could be of potential interest to the readership of eLife if the conclusions are valid and non-trivial.

      The resubmitted manuscript addresses several questions from my previous review. In particular, there is a more detailed description of how the code of Siljestam and Rueffler ([SR]) was used for the simulations and the calculation of the factor 2.7 x 10^43 that is the key to the alleged breakdown of the numerical reasoning presented by in [SR].

      Yet I think that important aspects of my critique of the first statement of the manuscript about the flaws of [SR] model remain unanswered. I guess the discussion becomes rather general about the universality and robustness of various types of models to parameter changes. My point is that none of the models is totally universal. The model in [SR] is not phenomenological as none of the parameters or functional forms were derived empirically. Instead, it is a proof of principle demonstration that inevitably grossly simplifies the actual immune response. The choice of constants and functions used in Eqs. (1-5) is dictated by the mathematical convenience and works in a limited range of parameter values. It is shown in [SR] that for 3 pathogens and reasonable "virulence " \nu, the alleles branch. These conclusions are supported by the analytically derived Adaptive Dynamics branching criteria (7), which, contrary to the statement is the cover letter (" It is clear from Fig. 4 of Siljestam and Rueffler that the branching condition is far from sufficient for high MHC diversity.") is perfectly confirmed by the simulation data shown in Fig. 4.

      The mathematical simplicity of the [SR] model generates various artifacts, such as the mentioned by the Author reduction of the "condition" by an enormous factor 2.7 x 10^43 and the resulting decrease in the "survival" induced by the addition of a new pathogen. This occurs at the very large value of \nu=20, whose effect is enormous due to the Gaussian form of (1), which, once again, was chosen for the mathematical convenience. In reality, a new pathogen cannot reduce the "survival" by such a factor as it would wipe out any resident population. So to compensate for such an artifact, the additional factor c_max was introduced to buffer such an excess. There is no reason to fix c_max once for an arbitrary number of pathogens, because varying c_max basically reflects the observation that a well-adapted individual must have a reasonable survival probability. At the same time, there are many ways in which the numerical simulation may break down when the survival rates become of the order of 10^(-43) instead of one, so it comes to no surprise that the diversification, predicted by the adaptive dynamics, does not readily occur in the scenario with an addition or removal of the 8th pathogen with a very high virulence \nu=20.

      I have doubts that the reported breakdown of the [SR] model with fixed c_max remains observable with less extreme values of m and \nu (say, for \nu=7 and m=3 plus or minus 1 used in Fig. 3 in the manuscript).

      So I still find the claim that " the phenomenon that leads to high diversity in the simulations of Siljestam and Rueffler depends on finely tuned parameter values" is not well substantiated.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study addresses the population genetic underpinnings of the extraordinary diversity of genes in the MHC, which is widespread among jawed vertebrates. This topic has been widely discussed and studied, and several hypotheses have been suggested to explain this diversity. One of them is based on the idea that heterozygote genotypes have an advantage over homozygotes. While this hypothesis lost early on support, a reason study claimed that there is good support for this idea. The current study highlights an important aspect that allows us to see results presented in the earlier published paper in a different light, changing strongly the conclusions of the earlier study, i.e., there is no support for a heterozygote advantage. This is a very important contribution to the field. Furthermore, this new study presents an alternative hypothesis to explain the maintenance of MHC diversity, which is based on the idea that gene duplications can create diversity without heterozygosity being important. This is an interesting idea, but not entirely new.

      Strength:

      (1) A careful re-evaluation of a published model, questioning a major assumption made by a previous study.

      (2) A convincing reanalysis of a model that, in the light of the re-analysis-loses all support.

      (3) A convincing suggestion for an alternative hypothesis.

      Weakness:

      (1) The title of the study is catchy, but it is explained only in the very end of the paper.

    4. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      Reviewer #1:

      Yet I think that important aspects of my critique of the first statement of the manuscript about the flaws of [SR] model remain unanswered.

      I believe that I have fully addressed the points in the earlier review. The reviewer had doubted that my results were correct, attributing them to “a poor setup of the model” on my part. The reviewer stated that if I were correct about the factor of >10<sup>43</sup> change in cmax, this would “naturally break down all the estimates and conclusions made in Siljestam and Rueffler” (S&R).

      It appears that the reviewer is now convinced that my results represent a faithful analysis of the models on which S&R based their claims. The reviewer now contends that these results, including the factor of >10<sup>43</sup>, present no difficulties for the claims of S&R after all. In fact, this enormous factor of >10<sup>43</sup> is now claimed to support the conclusions of S&R by invalidating my conclusions. I respond to these new and very different arguments in what follows.

      As I stated in the first round of review, the issue is not the enormity of this factor per se, but the fact that the compensatory adjustment of cmax conceals the true effects of changes in other parameters. These effects are large; small changes to the parameter values mostly eliminate the diversity that the model is claimed to explain.

      The model in [SR] is not phenomenological as none of the parameters or functional forms were derived empirically. Instead, it is a proof of principle demonstration that inevitably grossly simplifies the actual immune response.

      The hidden sensitivity of the results of S&R to paramater values is sufficient to invalidate them as a proof of principle. The manuscript goes further and explains how the problem "is not specific to the details of the models of Siljestam and Rueffler, but is inherent in the phenomenon invoked to allow high diversity" because "any change that affects condition by as much as the difference between MHC heterozygotes and homozygotes will eliminate high equilibrium diversity". This general principle addresses all of the reviewer's points.

      In reality, a new pathogen cannot reduce the "survival" by such a factor as it would wipe out any resident population. So to compensate for such an artifact, the additional factor cmax was introduced to buffer such an excess. There is no reason to fix cmax once for an arbitrary number of pathogens, because varying cmax basically reflects the observation that a well-adapted individual must have a reasonable survival probability.

      This is not a legitimate reason for making compensatory, diversity-promoting adjustments to cmax when evaluating sensitivity to other parameters. If the number of pathogens or their virulence changes, cmax obviously does not automatically change along with it. If the population or species consequently goes extinct, then it goes extinct. If it persists, it does so with the same value of cmax.

      The possibility of extinction arguably puts a minimum value on cmax, but it does not restrict it to a range of values that conveniently leads to high MHC diversity. In the examples that I analyzed, slightly decreasing the number of pathogens or their virulence, which increases survivability, eliminates diversity. This phenomenon obviously cannot be dismissed on the grounds that survivability would be too low for the species to exist.

      S&R in effect assume that the condition of the most fit homozygote remains fixed, regardless of the number of pathogens, their virulence, and myriad other differences between species. It is this assumption that is without justification.

      At the same time, there are many ways in which the numerical simulation may break down when the survival rates become of the order of 10^(-43) instead of one

      I am not sure what is meant by “the numerical simulation may break down”. Numerical error is not a tenable explanation of the lack of diversity observed in that simulation. The outcome is exactly what is expected from purely theoretical considerations: conditions of all genotypes fall on the steep part of the curve, making the mechanism proposed by S&R largely inoperative, so a pair of alleles forming a fit heterozygote comes to predominate. The numerical simulation is actually superfluous.

      Low survival rates are completely irrelevant to the effect of decreasing the number of pathogens or their virulence, which does not lower survival rates, but does eliminate diversity.

      so it comes to no surprise that the diversification, predicted by the adaptive dynamics, does not readily occur in the scenario with an addition or removal of the 8th pathogen with a very high virulence \nu=20.

      Whether or not it surprising, the lack of diversity is a problem for the claims of S&R, as there is no reason to expect the number of pathogens to have just the right value to produce high diversity. Furthermore, for many combinations of values of the other parameters (e.g., my v=19.5 and 20.5 examples), no number of pathogens leads to high diversity.

      Again, the general principle mentioned above makes the details that the reviewer refers to irrelevant. Nonetheless, some additional remarks are in order:

      (1) This comment ignores the fact that removal of a pathogen, or a slight decrease in “virulence”, eliminates diversity without lowering survival rates.

      (2) Small increases or decreases in v (virulence) eliminate diversity without having such large effects on condition.

      (3) In the example emphasized by the reviewer, mean survival rates are nowhere near as low as 10<sup>-43</sup>. Only homozygotes have such low fitness.

      (4) The adaptive dynamics predict the low diversity seen in the simulations, contrary to what the reviewer seems to suggest. Elimination of diversity is not an artifact of the simulation.

      (5) v\=20 was chosen because it is most favorable to the model of S&R in that it yields the highest diversity. Indeed, S&R only observed realistically high diversity with the narrow gaussians that the reviewer objects to. With lower values of v, diversity is much lower, but even this meager diversity is eliminated by small changes in parameter values (see below). If narrow gaussians and large effects of pathogens somehow invalidate results, then they invalidate the high-diversity results of S&R.

      I have doubts that the reported breakdown of the [SR] model with fixed cmax remains observable with less extreme values of m and \nu (say, for \nu=7 and m=3 plus or minus 1 used in Fig. 3 in the manuscript).

      These doubts are unwarrented. With the suggested parameter values, for example, increasing or decreasing m by 1 reduces the effective number of alleles to around 1 or 2. This can easily be checked using the simulation code of S&R, as detailed in my initial response and now in a Supplementary Text. Even without this result, the general principle mentioned above tells us that considering other regions of parameter space cannot rescue the conclusions of S&R.

      So I still find the claim that " the phenomenon that leads to high diversity in the simulations of Siljestam and Rueffler depends on finely tuned parameter values" is not well substantiated.

      What is unsubstantiated is the claim of S&R that “For a large part of the parameter space, more than 100 and up to over 200 alleles can emerge and coexist”. As my manuscript illustrates, this is an illusion created by the adjustment of one parameter to compensate for changes in others.

      The reviewer even acknowledges that “the choice of constants and functions...works in a limited range of parameter values”. Furthermore, the manuscript explains why this problem is inherent to the general phenomenon, not specific to the details of the model or parameter values.


      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      It appears obvious that with no or a little fitness penalty, it becomes beneficial to have MHC-coding genes specific to each pathogen. A more thorough study that takes into account a realistic (most probably non-linear in gene number) fitness penalty, various numbers of pathogens that could grossly exceed the self-consistent fitness limit on the number of MHC genes, etc, could be more informative.

      The reviewer seems to be referring to the cost of excessively high presentation breadth. Such a cost is irrelevant to the inferior fitness of a polymorphic population with heterozygote advantage compared to a monomorphic population with merely doubled gene copy number. It is relevant to the possibility of a fitness valley separating these two states, but this issue is addressed explicitly in the manuscript.

      An addition or removal of one of the pathogens is reported to affect "the maximum condition", a key ecological characteristic of the model, by an enormous factor 10^43, naturally breaking down all the estimates and conclusions made in [RS]. This observation is not substantiated by any formulas, recipes for how to compute this number numerically, or other details, and is presented just as a self-standing number in the text.

      It is encouraging that the reviewer agrees that this observation, if correct, would cast doubt on the conclusions of Siljestam and Rueffler. I would add that it is not the enormity of this factor per se that invalidates those conclusions, but the fact that the automatic compensatory adjustment of c</sub>max</sub> conceals the true effects of removing a pathogen, which are quite large.

      I am not sure why the reviewer doubts that this observation is correct. The factor of 2.7∙10<sup>43</sup> was determined in a straightforward manner in the course of simulating the symmetric Gaussian model of Siljestam and Rueffler with the specified parameter values. A simple way to determine this number is to have the simulation code print the value to which c</sub>max</sub> is set, or would be set, by the procedure of Siljestam and Rueffler for different parameter values. I have in this way confirmed this factor using the simulation code written and used by Siljestam and Rueffler. A procedure for doing so is described in the new Supplementary Text S1. In addition, I now give a theoretical derivation of this factor in Supplementary Text S2.

      This begs the conclusion that the branching remains robust to changes in cmax that span 4 decades as well.

      That shows at most that the results are not extremely sensitive to c</sub>max</sub> or K. They are, nonetheless, exquisitely sensitive to m and v. This difference in sensitivities is the reason that a relatively small change to m leads to such a large compensatory change in c</sub>max</sub>. It is evident from Fig. 4 of Siljestam and Rueffler that the level of diversity is not robust to these very large changes in c</sub>max</sub>, which include, as noted above, a change of over 43 orders of magnitude.

      As I wrote above, there is no explanation behind this number, so I can only guess that such a number is created by the removal or addition of a pathogen that is very far away from the other pathogens. Very far in this context means being separated in the x-space by a much greater distance than 1/\nu, the width of the pathogens' gaussians. Once again, I am not totally sure if this was the case, but if it were, some basic notions of how models are set up were broken. It appears very strange that nothing is said in the manuscript about the spatial distribution of the pathogens, which is crucial to their effects on the condition c.

      I did not explicitly describe the distribution of pathogens in antigenic space because it is exactly the same as in Siljestam and Rueffler, Fig. 4: the vertices of a regular simplex, centered at the origin, with unity edge length.

      The number in question (2.7∙10<sup>43</sup>) pertains to the Gaussian model with v\=20. As specified by Siljestam and Rueffler, each pathogen lies at a distance of 1 from every other pathogen, so the distance of any pathogen from the others is indeed much greater than 1/v. This condition holds, however, for most of the parameter space explored by Siljestam and Rueffler (their Fig. 4), and for all of the parameter space that seemingly supports their conclusions. Thus, if this condition indicates that “basic notions of how models are set up were broken”, they must have been broken by Siljestam and Rueffler.

      ...the branching condition appears to be pretty robust with respect to reasonable changes in parameters.

      It is clear from Fig. 4 of Siljestam and Rueffler that the branching condition is far from sufficient for high MHC diversity.

      Overall, I strongly suspect that an unfortunately poor setup of the model reported in the manuscript has led to the conclusions that dispute the much better-substantiated claims made in [SD].

      The reviewer seems to be suggesting that my simulations are somehow flawed and my conclusions unreliable. I have addressed the reasons for this suggestion above. Furthermore, I have confirmed the main conclusion—the extreme sensitivity of the results of Siljestam and Rueffler to parameter values--using the code that they used for their simulations, indicating that my conclusions are not consequences of my having done a “poor setup of the model”. I now describe, in Supplementary Text S1, how anybody can verify my conclusions in this way.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      (1) The statement that the model outcome of Siljestam and Rueffler is very sensitive to parameter values is, in this form, not correct. The sensitivity is only visible once a strong assumption by Siljestam and Rueffler is removed. This assumption is questionable, and it is well explained in the manuscript by J. Cherry why it should not be used. This may be seen as a subtle difference, but I think it is important to pin done the exact nature of the problem (see, for example, the abstract, where this is presented in a misleading way).

      I appreciate the distinction, and the importance of clearly specifying the nature of the problem. However, as I understand it, Siljestam and Rueffler do not invoke the implausible assumption that changes to the number of pathogens or their virulence will be accompanied by compensatory changes to c</sub>max</sub>. Rather, they describe the adjustment of c</sub>max</sub> (Appendix 7) as a “helpful” standardization that applies “without loss of generality”. Indeed, my low-diversity results could be obtained, despite such adjustment, by combining the small change to m or v with a very large change to K (e.g., a factor of 2.7∙10<sup>43</sup>). In this sense there is no loss of generality, but the automatic adjustment of c</sub>max</sub> obscures the extreme sensitivity of the results to m and v.

      (2) The title of the study is very catchy, but it needs to be explained better in the text.

      I have expanded the end of the Discussion in the hope of clarifying the point expressed by the title.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      I would like to suggest to the author that they provide essential details about their simulations that would justify their claims, and to communicate with Mattias Siljestam and Claus Rueffler whether claims of the lack of robustness could be confirmed.

      The models simulated were modified versions of those of Siljestam and Rueffler. Thus, only the modifications were described in my manuscript. I have added a more detailed description of how c</sub>max</sub> was set in the simulations concerned with sensitivity to parameter values. In addition, the new Supplementary Text S1, which describes confirmation of the lack of robustness using the code of Siljestam and Rueffler, should remove any doubt about this conclusion.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      I have no further recommendations. The manuscript is well written and clear.

      Thank you.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Since this is a full report and not just a letter to the editor, it would benefit from a bit more introduction of what the MHC actually is and what the current understanding of its evolution is. Currently, it assumes a lot of knowledge about these genes that might not be available to every reader of eLife.

      I have added some more information to the opening paragraph. I would also note that this report was submitted as a “Research Advance”, which may only need “minimal introductory material”.

      (2) Some more recent literature on MHC evolution should be added, e.g., the review by Radwan et al. 2020 TiG, a concrete case of MHC heterozygote advantage by Arora et al. 2020 MolBiolEvol, and a simulation of MHC CNV evolution by Bentkowski et al. 2019 PLOSCompBiol.

      I have cited some additional literature.

      (3) Since much of the criticism hinges on the cmax parameter, its biological meaning or role (or the lack thereof) could be discussed more.

      I am not sure what I can add to what is in the first paragraph of the Discussion.

      (4) I find it difficult to grasp how the v parameter, which is intended to define pathogen virulence, if I understand it correctly, can be used to amend the breadth of peptide presentation. Maybe this could be illustrated better.

      I have attempted to make this clearer. The parameter v actually controls the breadth of peptide detection conferred by an allele, which, if not identical to the breath of presentation, is certainly affected by it. The basis of the “virulence” interpretation seems to be that narrower detection breadth can, according to the model, only decrease peptide detection probability, which increases the damage done by pathogens.

      (5) Please check sentences in lines 279ff on peptide detection and cost of . There seem to be words missing.

      There was an extraneous word, which I have removed. Thank you for pointing this out.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This study reports important findings by showing that two classes of kinase inhibitors, which stabilise the LRRK2 enzyme in either an active (Type I) or inactive state (Type II), have distinct effects on the formation of LRRK2 filaments and their association with cellular structures. Using correlative light microscopy, cryo-electron tomography and sub-tomogram averaging, the authors provide convincing evidence that a Type I inhibitor leads to the extensive decoration of microtubules with LRRK2 in a closed-kinase conformation, and that such decoration is not seen for a type-II inhibitor. The conclusions are consistent with previous work, although the physiological relevance of the work remains somewhat limited due to reliance on overexpression and the use of a rare mutation in a single cell type.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      In this study, the authors set out to determine how two classes of kinase inhibitors, which stabilise a disease-relevant enzyme in either an active (Type I) or inactive state (Type II), influence its organisation and interactions with microtubule filaments in cells. Using the state-of-the-art in-cell structural imaging approaches, they examine how these compounds affect the formation of protein filaments and their association with microtubules, and succeed in defining the underlying structural basis for these differences.

      A major strength of the work is the application of in-cell cryo-electron tomography combined with correlative imaging, which enables direct visualisation of protein organisation in a near-native cellular context. The data convincingly demonstrate that the Type I inhibitor compound stabilising the active state promotes extensive LRRK2 filament formation and microtubule bundling, whereas compounds stabilising the inactive state markedly reduce these interactions. The structural analysis further provides insight into how conformational states relate to filament organisation, including modelling of previously unresolved regions of the protein.

      These findings are internally consistent and align well with prior biochemical and structural studies, many of which were performed by the same team.

      There are, however, some limitations that should be noted. The experiments rely on overexpression of the I2020T mutant form of the LRRK2 protein, which is a rare variant, in a single cell type (293T cells), which may not fully reflect endogenous behaviour or wild-type LRRK2 in a physiological context. In addition, while the imaging data are compelling, the functional consequences of the observed filament formation and microtubule association remain unclear.

      The study therefore provides strong descriptive and structural insight, but more limited evidence linking these observations to cellular or disease-relevant outcomes.

      Overall, the authors largely achieve their aims, and the results support their central conclusion that different classes of kinase inhibitors have distinct effects on protein organisation in cells. The work represents an important advance in understanding how small molecules can reshape protein architecture in a cellular environment, with potential implications for therapeutic strategies. The methodological approach will also be of broad interest to the field, as it highlights the power of in-cell structural biology to study dynamic protein assemblies that are difficult to capture using traditional approaches.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Mutations in Leucine-Rich Repeat Kinase 2 (LRRK2) are a major cause of Parkinson's disease. LRRK2 PD-related mutations all result in increased kinase activity. Therefore, LRRK2 has been the focus of the development of kinase inhibitors. So far, two classes of kinase inhibitors have been identified: type 1 LRRK2-specific inhibitors that stabilize LRRK2 in a closed active-like conformation and broad-range type 2 inhibitors that stabilize LRRK2 in an open inactive-like conformation. Basiashvili et al. used here in cell structural biology to study the effect of both type 1 and type 2 inhibitors on the localization and structural conformation of LRRK2-I2020T.

      Strengths:

      They showed that Type 1 and not Type 2 inhibitors induce LRRK2 filament/ on microtubules. Furthermore, they were able to build a structural map of full-length LRRK2 I2020T bound to a Type 1 inhibitor in a closed kinase confirmation. Together, this work thus confirms the data of previous studies that showed that LRRK2 Type 1 and 2 inhibitors differently affect filament formation.

      Weaknesses:

      All conclusions are fully supported by the provided data. However, as the authors indicated themselves, the physiological relevance of LRRK2 microtubule binding is questionable. Furthermore, although the authors used a full-length LRRK2 protein, like in previously published structures, the resolution of the N-terminal domains is rather poor. Therefore, it also remains unclear what we learn from this structure compared to the previously published structures.

    4. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This paper describes new insights into the effects of type-I and type-II LRRK2 inhibitors on HEK293T cells that over-express GFP-labeled LRRK2-I2020T. Using correlative light microscopy and cryo-electron tomography, a type-I inhibitor leads to the extensive decoration of microtubules with LRRK2, which is not seen for a type-II inhibitor. Subtomogram averaging reveals that LRRK2 binds to the microtubules in a closed-kinase conformation, with density for the N-terminal arms.

      Strengths:

      The paper is well written; the CLEM and cryo-ET appear to be done to a high standard. Consequently, I have only minor comments.

      Weaknesses:

      The resolution of the subtomogram averages is somewhat limited, but the authors have adequately limited the number of degrees of freedom in the fitting of their atomic models by only allowing rigid-body transformations of separate parts of LRRK2.

      The authors should include FSC curves between the rigid-body fitted atomic models and the various sub-tomogram average maps.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This solid paper reports on the use of artificial intelligence to assess bone marrow adipose tissue in the skull. The method employing MRI is novel and that approach allows for the identification of genetic loci that regulate this trait as well as others using data from the UK biobank. Overall this is an important contribution although the authors should consider several points: 1-validation of the T1-weighted MRI signal intensity; 2-further discussion of the sex differences; and 3-cross-trait linkage disequilibrium score regression (LDSC) for osteoporosis, Parkinson's disease, and cognitive function.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      The authors of this study developed a method to quantify calvarial bone marrow from MRI head scans, enabling the study of its composition in large datasets of adults, usually collected to study the brain. Bone marrow intensity can be semi-quantitatively measured in T1-weighted MRI scans due to the greater signal intensity of fat than watery red marrow. This is an ingenious use of the MRI-produced information for other important phenotypes, such as bone structure and marrow content. Different head types were tested for complying with the model, which is notable.

      The model was also successfully validated using several publicly available MRI resources - real data - in (1) a dataset consisting of 30 individuals that were scanned 10 times each at 3-day intervals, and (2) the monozygotic (MZ) twin data from the Human Connectome Project cohort. Then the authors applied this validated method to head-MRI scans from the UK Biobank (n=33,042) to extract information on the spatial distribution of bone marrow adiposity (BMA) in the calvaria, allowing a GWAS to identify associated genes.

      The authors revealed high heritability and identified 41 genetic loci significantly associated with the BMA trait, including six sex-specific loci. Of note, statistics estimate that 99% of BMA trait-influencing variants are shared with BMD (497 of 500 variants), which may mean these results demonstrate the biological relevance to bone health. Some of the BMA genes were found related to the Wnt pathway, including WNT16, WNT4, NXN; this is a "positive control", since the Wnt/β-catenin signaling pathway was suggested as an important determinant of BMA. Also, associations in genes (BMP4, DLX5, LGR4, LRP4, SFRP4) that are known to specifically influence adiposity, are encouraging. Integrating mapped genes with bone marrow single-cell RNA-seq data revealed patterns of adipogenic lineage differentiation and lipid loading.

      The study also investigated the genetic overlap between BMA and twelve (or 13) "brain and body" traits and identified significant genetic correlations with BMI, cognitive ability, and Parkinson's disease.

      In sum, since MRI head scans present a hitherto unexplored opportunity to address unresolved aspects of bone marrow biology, this study is both timely and innovative.

      There are, however, some assumptions, findings, and their interpretation, which require more critical focus.

      Sex-specificity is well described and studied here. Men have higher BMA than women, but post-menopausal women catch up in the BMA values. The authors believe that calvarial marrow has a number of features that make it particularly well-suited to the study of BMA process - which is clinically important in other bone sites. It has a simple "sandwiched" structure that they are able to model. This is true only to some extent: a condition called "Hyperostosis frontalis interna", of unknown etiology (described by Smith & Hemphill in 1956) - is characterized by irregular overgrowth of the inner table of the frontal bone (symmetric/bilateral). Although not of clinical significance, typically benign, studies report a prevalence of 12%; However, it's most common in postmenopausal women - where prevalences up to 49% in women over the age of 65 - have been reported. Thus, sexual dimorphism is obvious and the effect of estrogen is likely shared with whichever bone - and marrow - age-related pathology. So, for women not using HRT, this new layer of the bone might interfere with the calvarial BMA readings and in turn, affect the BMA-related analyses. The authors suspect that the effect of BMA on BMD may be biased in women; they should comment on those "with low BMD and high BMA" given that hyperostosis frontalis might be an issue. A strong effect of SNPs in the ESR1 chromosomal region might be akin to the above concern.

      Then, there is a perfect overlap of the BMA SNPs that are shared with BMD (497 of 500 variants), which may prove a "face validity" of the MRI-derived BMA. However, the BMD in the study was heel-derived eBMD - which is a good proxy for osteoporosis and is mostly driven by trabecular bone. Thus, there might be a concern that the BMA metrics capture some trabecular BMD.

      Next, integrating mapped genes with existing bone marrow single-cell RNA-sequencing data revealed patterns of adipogenic lineage differentiation and lipid loading. The problem here is that the scRNAseq studies of the Bone Marrow niche are overwhelmingly mouse. The authors might wish to justify why they are relevant to humans (in the absence of the human-specific scRNAseq).

      For genetic correlation analysis, the authors selected 7 body and 6 brain traits. The latter traits reflect cognition (general cognitive ability and educational attainment) and brain-related disorders. This selection might seem arbitrary. The interpretation of genetic correlation with cognitive ability, education, and Parkinson's disease was attributed to the recently discovered vascular channels that link calvarial bone marrow to the meninges. This is a fascinating hypothesis, which requires functional proof. However, there might be simpler explanations. Thus, the diploe and the inner table of the calvarium are drained by the same veins as the dura. From the anatomy textbook, we know that diploic veins connect the pericranial and endocranial venous system through the skull.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study develops a new artificial intelligence method for high-throughput analysis of skull bone marrow from MRI data, which may be useful for large-scale biological analyses. Using this method, the authors then attempt to estimate skull bone marrow adiposity (BMA) using T1-weighted signal intensity from MRI scans of ~33,000 people, followed by genome-wide association analysis; however, the approach is inadequate because T1-weighted signal intensity is not validated for measurement of bone marrow adiposity. If it could be validated, the study would be an important advance in understanding of bone marrow adiposity and skeletal biology.

      Strengths:

      This paper is well-written, and the figures are nicely presented. The neural network method used for analysing skull bone marrow is innovative, and the authors validate this through several approaches. Therefore, the authors have achieved the aim of developing a method for large-scale analysis of skull bone marrow from MRI data.

      The GWAS is reasonably well-powered and addresses potential ethnicity differences, with one GWAS done across white males and females, and a separate GWAS in non-white participants. The methodology also conforms to common GWAS standards, including for mapping genetic variants to candidate genes. Moreover, the study further investigates the biological roles of these genes by analysing their expression in single-cell RNA sequencing data.

      Weaknesses:

      The fundamental weakness is that T1-weighted MRI signal intensity (T1W) is used as an estimate of BMA, but it has never been validated for this. The authors show that this T1W parameter measures something that is heritable and can be compared between subjects, but they don't show that it actually measures (or even estimates) calvarial BMA. There is an attempt to do so by comparing the T1W parameter with data from quantitative T1 images: the authors show a reasonable correlation with some of the quantitative T1 image data. However, this still does not show that the parameter is measuring BMA; it could be measuring some other biological characteristic, but this remains unclear. So, there is a need to validate the T1W parameter against an established measure of BMA, such as the bone marrow fat-fraction or proton density fat fraction measured from multi-echo MRI analysis.

      Without validating this BMA measurement method, it is not possible to interpret the GWAS or other findings reported in the study.

      A less critical weakness is that the GWAS has been done only on a single cohort, without replicating the findings in a follow-up cohort. For example, the authors could repeat their analysis on the remaining ~50,000 UK Biobank imaging participants for whom MRI data is now available. However, this would be pointless without knowing what biological characteristic(s) the T1W parameter is actually reflecting.

      [UPDATE, June 2026: since writing this review in September 2024, the reviewer has changed their opinion and now has confidence in the reliability of the T1W method used to estimate BMA. The reviewer would like to explain that their original critiques were based largely on previous discussions with a colleague with expertise in magnetic resonance and medical physics, who was extremely negative about use of T1W signal intensity to estimate BMA; this colleague’s criticisms may not have been objective, and clouded the reviewer’s overall impression of the present study. The reviewer and others have since completed BMA analysis using dual-echo MRI data in the UK Biobank; the findings of these studies, both for genetic and pathophysiological associations, are largely consistent with the findings of the present study, underscoring the reliability of the T1W-based BMA estimates.]

    4. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript, "Estimating bone marrow adiposity from head MRI and identifying its genetic 2 architecture", brings together the groups of Drs. Kaufmann and Hughes in a tour de force work to develop an artificial neural network that localizes calvaria bone marrow in T1-weighted MRI head scans, with the goal of studying its composition in several large MRI datasets, and to model sex-dimorphic age trajectories, including the effect of menopause.

      Strengths:

      Bone marrow adiposity is a very active tissue with far-reaching implications for tissue crosstalk and human health than we had initially recognized. Although MRI has been used to measure BM, studies such as the one by these two groups are still lacking whereas very large datasets are analyzed using advanced AI machine learning tools coupled with genetic studies and a specific pathology. The groups had to develop new methods and new AI machine-learning tools for the imaging analyses.

      Weaknesses:

      Some aspects of the work that authors could add additional clarification.

      (1) Imaging Limitations: The authors provide an excellent overview and references supporting the use of MRI as a method for assessing marrow fat, particularly with some specific modifications. However, MRI images can be affected by various factors, including the presence of other tissues as well as specific MRI settings, which are much harder to precisely control when using different datasets.

      (2) The specific density of cranial bones as it relates to the types of bone marrow: Cranial bones are extremely dense structures, which naturally interfere with MRI imaging. While it is thought that cranial bones have mostly "red bone marrow", this is only true for a short time in humans. How sensitive is their system in differentiating between red and yellow BM?

      (3) Both items above are further complicated by aging, but aging is not a linear event as we have learned. There are specific bursts of aging in humans around the age of 45 and early 60s. How do the system and model predict or incorporate these peaks of aging? It seems from the data shown that aging is reflected more as a linear phenomenon. Is this because additional aging datasets are needed?

      (4) The authors describe in richness of detail their AI learning programming and how it extracted the data from datasets. The authors also show some important correlations with specific genes, SNPs. What is not clear is how conditions such as anemia for example. An expected finding would be that patients with chronic anemia have lower bone marrow (BM) signal intensity on MRI scans than healthy people. This is because the signal intensity of BM depends on the fat-to-cell ratio in the tissue. Furthermore, patients with a host of musculoskeletal disorders ranging from osteopenia to osteoporosis, sarcopenia, and osteosarcopenia will also have altered MRI scans. When using such large datasets how did the authors control or exclude these pathological conditions, or were all these conditions likely present?

      (5) Some of the genes and SNPs although significant showed very small correlations. What is their likely physiological significance?

      (6) The authors could use this excellent manuscript to expand their discussion to include the need for studies like theirs to be also complemented by multi-OMICS studies that will include proteomics and lipidomics of BM, bones, and muscles.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This study provides conditionally useful evidence that amino acid starvation and other stresses induce RNF25-dependent ubiquitination of RPS27A/eS31, extending this pathway beyond A-site-trapping conditions and implicating GCN1. However, incomplete and largely indirect evidence was provided to support key mechanistic claims-notably competition between RNF25 and GCN2 for GCN1 and a role in resolving ribosome collisions. Additional direct and orthogonal evidence is required to substantiate these conclusions.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, the authors investigate ubiquitylation of RPS27A/eS31 by the E3 ligase RNF25 in response to translational stress. Previous studies have identified RPS27A/eS31 ubiquitylation at Lys113 under conditions where translation factors are trapped in the ribosomal A-site. Here, the authors extend this work by testing whether additional translational stress conditions, including amino acid deprivation, induce RPS27A/eS31 ubiquitylation. They further show that GCN1 is required and explore a possible competition between RNF25 and GCN2 for GCN1.

      Strengths:

      This study expands on the range of stress conditions leading to RPS27A/eS31 ubiquitylation, reporting that it occurs in a variety of conditions associated with ribosome stalling, including amino acid deprivation. These observations are useful because they suggest that the RNF25 pathway may not require translation factors trapped in the ribosomal A-site, but may instead respond more broadly to translational perturbations associated with ribosome collisions.

      Weaknesses:

      The evidence supporting several of the major claims is incomplete, and additional controls and orthogonal approaches would greatly strengthen the evidence presented. In particular:

      (1) It is unclear whether the different conditions used to induce translational stress lead to ribosome stalling or collisions. The model presented by the authors seems to rely on ribosomal collisions, but this is not shown. In addition, further investigating amino acid deprivation beyond the removal of Arg or Lys would strengthen the paper.

      (2) Ubiquitylation of RPS27A/eS31 by RNF25 is used throughout the paper as a readout of RNF25 activity and is assumed to be on Lys113 based on previous work, but is not formally shown here.

      (3) Rescue experiments of the different mutants used in this study with wild-type and different domain deletions (i.e., ΔRWD for RNF25, ΔRWD-binding for GCN1) would help confirm specificity and strengthen the mechanistic claims.

      (4) The conclusion that RPS27A/eS31 ubiquitylation supports translation (Figure 4) is based entirely on polysome/monosome ratios, which are difficult to interpret without additional assays of translation output, elongation, or collision.

      (5) The idea that RNF25 competes with GCN2 for GCN1 binding is interesting, and related models have recently been proposed in RNA damage. The effect of GCN2 KO on RNF25-dependent ubiquitylation appears modest, and the data would be strengthened by rescue experiments with wild-type GCN2 and GCN2 mutants defective in GCN1 binding. The authors propose: "that the RNF25 pathway acts as a first line of defence to resolve ribosome collisions, outcompeted by GCN2 binding to GCN1 under acute stress." This model would suggest a further increase in RPS27A/eS31 ubiquitylation upon Arg/Lys deprivation in GCN2 KO cells, since this is the condition in which GCN2 is expected to be activated and engaged with GCN1 (i.e., when it would be competing with RNF25), but no further increase in RPS27A ubiquitylation is observed. It is therefore not clear that these data support the proposed model. Contributing to this may be the fact that many of these assays are performed in a USP16 KO background, which may make it difficult to assess changes in RPS27A/eS31 ubiquitylation.

      (6) Given that several RWD domain proteins can interact with GCN1, and that DRG2 KO appears to affect RPS27A/eS31 ubiquitylation (Figure S5), the data do not support the GCN2-specific title. The results are more consistent with a broader, incompletely characterized network of GCN1-associated RWD domain-containing proteins that seems to affect RNF25-dependent ubiquitylation rather than with a demonstrated RNF25-GCN2 competition mechanism. Further characterization of GCN2-dependent ISR activation (p-eIF2a and ATF4 WB) in the absence of RNF25 in Arg/Lys starvation will help shed light on the RNF25-GCN2 competition. The authors use K113R, but this is not shown to prevent RNF25 engagement with GCN1, so a RNF25 KO should be used.

      Overall, the study contains useful observations, but the mechanistic claims are not yet fully supported.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors show that deprivation of Arginine and Lysine induces a ~50% increase in the ratio of ubi-RPS27A to RPS27A, and this induction requires E3 ubiquitin ligase RNF25. The authors show ZAKalpha and EDF1 are not required for steady state or ribosome stalling-induced ubi-RPS27A, while GCN1 is required. The ratio of polysomes to monosomes is increased in RNF25 knockdown cells or when translation is activated by ISRIB in a RPS27A K113R mutant cell line. GCN2 KO cells indicate elevated levels of ubi-RPS27A, and overexpression of the GCN2 RWD domain reduces levels of ubi-RPS27A.

      Strengths:

      (1) The authors identified a novel pathway to sense amino acid deprivation, indicated by ubi-RPS27A, previously implicated in ribosome stalling.

      (2) The authors find antagonism between two proteins known to act downstream of GCN1, giving insight into how signaling occurs from an upstream sensor of ribosome stalling to multiple downstream pathways.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The authors suggest that, based on increased Polysome/Monosome ratios, there is more disome stalling in RNF25 KD cells and RPS27A K113R cells treated with ISRIB, but this readout is very indirect and could be driven by other changes in the cell other than ribosome stalling.

      (2) While the authors propose that GCN2 and RNF25 compete for binding to GCN1, no evidence was shown that RNF25 binds to GCN1 in cells, nor that the interaction increases when GCN2 is absent.

      (3) The use of USP16 to enhance the detection of ubi-RPS27A in many experiments brings the question of whether USP16 KO may alter the protein levels of any known regulators of ribosome collisions? (i.e. ZNF598, GCN1, EDF1, ZAKalpha, etc.) If USP16 KO causes changes in other important regulators of collisions, the authors could be identifying genetic interactions with USP16 in their experiments throughout the paper.

      (4) In Figure 5E, the expression level of the GCN2 3K RWD domain looks to be lower than the WT RWD domain; perhaps this could be what is driving the smaller decrease of ubi-RPS27A seen with GCN2 3K vs WT.

    4. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study examines the role of RNF25 in translational quality control. Previous work indicated that RNF25 is activated by ribosomes stalled with defective elongation or termination factors bound in the A-site. Here, the authors provide evidence that RNF25 is activated by other treatments that evoke ribosome stalling, including amino acid starvation, where the A-site may be empty, leading to ubiquitination of RPS27A in a manner requiring the ISR collision sensor Gcn1, but not EDF1 and ZAKα, involved in the RQC and RSR surveillance pathways. They present some evidence from polysome profiling that RNF25 and its ubiquitination of RPS7A help resolve ribosome collisions and support translation elongation in basal conditions. They further show that KO of Gcn2 increases RPS27A ubiquitination in basal conditions, but not in amino acid-starved cells, and that RPS27A ubiquitination was reduced on overexpressing the WT RWD domain of Gcn2 but not a variant harboring substitutions of residues predicted to bind Gcn1. Based on these findings, they propose a model that, in response to ribosome stalling induced by various stresses, Gcn1 recruits RNF25 via the latter's RWD domain to ubiquitinate RPS27A and thereby resolve ribosome stalling and promote continued elongation. If collisions increase even further, GCN1 recruits GCN2 instead of RNF25 to elicit the ISR.

      Strengths:

      The data is convincing that a variety of triggers leading to diverse stalled ribosomal states, including amino acid limitation, can activate RNF25, suggesting that activation of this pathway does not require the presence of trapped protein factors in the ribosomal A-site but is a more general response to ribosome collisions. It is also convincing that Gcn1 is required for RNF25 activation under all of these conditions, which is consistent with previous findings that Gcn1 is required for RNF25 function in the presence of trapped elongation or termination factors. The finding that EDF1 and ZAK are not needed for RNF25 activation in amino acid starvation conditions is of interest for EDF1, given the recent claim that it is required for full ISR activation.

      Weaknesses:

      The evidence presented from polysome profiling that RNF25 helps resolve naturally occurring ribosome collisions in basal conditions is not compelling, as eliminating RNF25 could be increasing the rate of initiation rather than increasing stalled ribosomes as the means of increasing the P/M ratio. The Rps27A-K113R mutation could have the same effect of increasing initiation, which could have been obscured by inhibiting the ISR with ISRIB.

      The evidence that RNF25 competes with Gcn2 for Gcn1 binding is also not compelling. While it's convincing that Rps27A-Ubi is elevated in basal conditions on eliminating Gcn2, loss of GCN2 would be expected to increase ribosome loading on mRNAs, potentially elevating the frequency of collisions and thereby stimulating RNF25 activity indirectly.

      It's also quite puzzling and left unexplained why they observed no further increase in Rps27A-Ubi on -Arg/-Lys starvation in the cells lacking Gcn2. Why wouldn't -Arg/-Lys starvation lead to further stalling and RNF25 activation in the absence of Gcn2? (Since Gcn2 KO increases Rps27A-Ubi in the presence +Arg/+Lys conditions, it can't be that Gcn2 is required for RNF25 function.) The same puzzling and unresolved observation was made in the cells lacking DRG2. One possible explanation for this conundrum is that low-level RNF25 abundance limits further activation.

      The quantitative effects of overexpressing the Gcn2 RWD domain on Rps27A-Ubi, constituting their other evidence presented to support the competition model, are quite small in magnitude.

    5. Author response:

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, the authors investigate ubiquitylation of RPS27A/eS31 by the E3 ligase RNF25 in response to translational stress. Previous studies have identified RPS27A/eS31 ubiquitylation at Lys113 under conditions where translation factors are trapped in the ribosomal A-site. Here, the authors extend this work by testing whether additional translational stress conditions, including amino acid deprivation, induce RPS27A/eS31 ubiquitylation. They further show that GCN1 is required and explore a possible competition between RNF25 and GCN2 for GCN1.

      Strengths:

      This study expands on the range of stress conditions leading to RPS27A/eS31 ubiquitylation, reporting that it occurs in a variety of conditions associated with ribosome stalling, including amino acid deprivation. These observations are useful because they suggest that the RNF25 pathway may not require translation factors trapped in the ribosomal A-site, but may instead respond more broadly to translational perturbations associated with ribosome collisions.

      We wish to point out that our study in fact suggests that the RNF25 pathway is activated by translation factors in the A-site, in agreement with what has been previously proposed, and in addition by stalling conditions that are assumed to not trap translation factors in the A-site. We do not exclude that these conditions might be sampled by A-site binding quality control factors before recognition by RNF25.

      Weaknesses:

      The evidence supporting several of the major claims is incomplete, and additional controls and orthogonal approaches would greatly strengthen the evidence presented.

      We appreciate adding more controls to further substantiate our novel findings. In the course of the revisions we will focus our work on those experiments that do not merely reproduce established facts in the field.

      In particular:

      (1) It is unclear whether the different conditions used to induce translational stress lead to ribosome stalling or collisions. The model presented by the authors seems to rely on ribosomal collisions, but this is not shown. In addition, further investigating amino acid deprivation beyond the removal of Arg or Lys would strengthen the paper.

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. It is correct that we don’t formally show collisions.

      However, the conditions we use have been previously established in the field to induce ribosome stalls and/or collisions, which we may not have pointed out clearly enough. In the revised version, we will include all relevant citations, i.e. for ternatin (Oltion et al., 2023): collisions, anisomycin (Juszkiewicz et al., 2018, Sinha et al., 2020): collisions, emetine (Sinha et al., 2020): collisions, didemnin B (Juszkiewicz et al., 2018, Stoneley et al., 2022): accumulation of ubi-eS10 and changes in polysome profiles indicative of collisions, MMS (Stoneley et al., 2022): changes in polysome profiles indicative of stalls or collisions, starvation -Arg/-Lys (Darnell et al., 2018, Stoneley et al., 2022): accumulation of collided ribosomes only upon GCN2 inhibition, indicative of collisions.

      Secondly, we do not claim to induce collisions when describing the inhibition data (Figure 1 and Figure S1) and were careful to say that we use ‘conditions that cause ribosome stalling’.

      Thirdly, we conclude on collisions when interpreting the data on amino acid starvation (and in our model (Figure 6)), based on our data demonstrating that RNF25 activity in RPS27A/eS31 ubiquitylation is dependent on GCN1 (Figure 3), an established sensor of collided disomes (Pochopien et al., 2021). This conclusion is thus based on the current knowledge in the field.

      We will carefully screen the text for potential points of overinterpretation or confusion between stalling and collisions.

      To address the request of further investigating amino acid deprivation beyond the removal of Arg or Lys, we will include an additional experiment in which we will deplete another amino acid.

      (2) Ubiquitylation of RPS27A/eS31 by RNF25 is used throughout the paper as a readout of RNF25 activity and is assumed to be on Lys113 based on previous work, but is not formally shown here.

      It is established that Lys113 is the main target of RNF25, not only by our work (Montellese et al., 2020), but also by recent work of other groups to which we had referred in our manuscript (Gurzeler et al., 2023, Oltion et al., 2023, Zhao et al., 2026).

      To experimentally address this point, we will add an experiment testing ubiquitylation of RPS27A/eS31 in cells carrying the K113R mutation.

      (3) Rescue experiments of the different mutants used in this study with wild-type and different domain deletions (i.e., ΔRWD for RNF25, ΔRWD-binding for GCN1) would help confirm specificity and strengthen the mechanistic claims.

      Minimally, we will include rescue experiments for RNF25 (using WT, DRWD and enzymatically dead mutant) and, if possible, also for GCN1, which might be more challenging due to its large size and anticipated problems with cloning, cell line generation and protein expression.

      (4) The conclusion that RPS27A/eS31 ubiquitylation supports translation (Figure 4) is based entirely on polysome/monosome ratios, which are difficult to interpret without additional assays of translation output, elongation, or collision.

      It is correct that we base our conclusion on polysome profiles and agree that these are an indirect measure of translation output. However, this assay is well established in the field to show dysregulation of polysome/monosome ratio upon ribosome stalling (Garzia et al., 2017), (Wu et al., 2020), (Chatterjee et al., 2024), (Gurzeler et al., 2023).

      Elongation defects would be expected to lead to stalls and/or collisions (which we conclude on). However, we cannot exclude that there is more initiation when RPS27A/eS31 carries the K113R mutation, although this is hard to rationalize mechanistically and experimentally challenging to exclude. Therefore, to address the point, we will add a sentence that we cannot exclude indirect effects on initiation but consider these unlikely.

      (5) The idea that RNF25 competes with GCN2 for GCN1 binding is interesting, and related models have recently been proposed in RNA damage. The effect of GCN2 KO on RNF25dependent ubiquitylation appears modest, and the data would be strengthened by rescue experiments with wild-type GCN2 and GCN2 mutants defective in GCN1 binding. The authors propose: "that the RNF25 pathway acts as a first line of defence to resolve ribosome collisions, outcompeted by GCN2 binding to GCN1 under acute stress." This model would suggest a further increase in RPS27A/eS31 ubiquitylation upon Arg/Lys deprivation in GCN2 KO cells, since this is the condition in which GCN2 is expected to be activated and engaged with GCN1 (i.e., when it would be competing with RNF25), but no further increase in RPS27A ubiquitylation is observed. It is therefore not clear that these data support the proposed model. Contributing to this may be the fact that many of these assays are performed in a USP16 KO background, which may make it difficult to assess changes in RPS27A/eS31 ubiquitylation.

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. We measure on average a 50% increase in the level of ubiquitinated RPS27A/eS31 in GCN2 KO cells. Considering the large number of ribosomes in a cell (~10<sup>7</sup> per HeLa cell), this 50% increase (from 12.5 to 25% ubiquitinated RPS27A/eS31) amounts to an estimated number of 1,25 x 10<sup>6</sup> of RPS27A/eS31 molecules that get additionally modified, which is clearly a substantial difference, especially compared to the naturally very low levels of RNF25 (in the range of 23’000 molecules (Itzhak et al., 2016)).

      We respectfully disagree that performing experiments in USP16 KO background makes it difficult to assess RPS27A/eS31 ubiquitination. On the contrary. The natural levels of RPS27A/eS31 ubiquitination in WT cells are very low, making quantification sensitive to background fluctuations (see Figure S1). Therefore, in our experience, the usage of USP16 KO makes the quantitative analysis of RPS27A/eS31 ubiquitination robust, allowing us to analyse both increase and decrease in the levels of ubiquitination. We agree that with increasing collisions, the level of ubiquitinated RPS27A/eS31 reaches a plateau in USP16 KO, which may limit the observable increase. Therefore, the substantial 50% increase might indeed underestimate the effect as compared to WT cells. Still, the measurable increase is substantial and robust.

      To experimentally address the point of the reviewer, we will try generating GCN2 KO cells in a WT background, i.e. in absence of USP16 KO, to strengthen our model.

      (6) Given that several RWD domain proteins can interact with GCN1, and that DRG2 KO appears to affect RPS27A/eS31 ubiquitylation (Figure S5), the data do not support the GCN2specific title. The results are more consistent with a broader, incompletely characterized network of GCN1-associated RWD domain-containing proteins that seems to affect RNF25-dependent ubiquitylation rather than with a demonstrated RNF25-GCN2 competition mechanism. Further characterization of GCN2-dependent ISR activation (p-eIF2a and ATF4 WB) in the absence of RNF25 in Arg/Lys starvation will help shed light on the RNF25-GCN2 competition. The authors use K113R, but this is not shown to prevent RNF25 engagement with GCN1, so a RNF25 KO should be used.

      While we fully agree that our data point at a broader network of competition on GCN1, we wished to avoid an overstatement on other pathways than GCN2, since our experimental evidence on DRG2 is limited at the moment. As it stands, changing the title of the manuscript to a more general message, would indeed fuel the view that our claims are incomplete. But we are glad to reconsider this suggestion if further supporting evidence can be obtained in the course of the revision work.

      The reviewer suggests experiments on competition of RNF25 with GCN2. In contrast to the expectation of the reviewer, we do not expect KO of RNF25 to manifest in defects in ISR activation due to the low expression levels of RNF25. In the revised manuscript, we will make clearer that our model refers to competition in the other direction, i.e., of GCN2 with RNF25, which our data supports. The reverse competition of RNF25 with GCN2 is expected to be inefficient to enable a robust activation of the ISR by GCN1 when needed. In addition, other pathways (such as DRG2) might also contribute to the resolution of collisions in the absence of RNF25, affecting the level of ISR activation.

      We feel that further working out these competitive relationships will be interesting to perform in future work. Currently, it is also not clear whether all involved RWD-containing factors bind GCN1 with the same affinity, which is important to consider for the effectiveness of a mutual competition model as suggested by the reviewer.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors show that deprivation of Arginine and Lysine induces a ~50% increase in the ratio of ubi-RPS27A to RPS27A, and this induction requires E3 ubiquitin ligase RNF25. The authors show ZAKalpha and EDF1 are not required for steady state or ribosome stalling-induced ubiRPS27A, while GCN1 is required. The ratio of polysomes to monosomes is increased in RNF25 knockdown cells or when translation is activated by ISRIB in a RPS27A K113R mutant cell line. GCN2 KO cells indicate elevated levels of ubi-RPS27A, and overexpression of the GCN2 RWD domain reduces levels of ubi-RPS27A.

      Strengths:

      (1) The authors identified a novel pathway to sense amino acid deprivation, indicated by ubiRPS27A, previously implicated in ribosome stalling.

      (2) The authors find antagonism between two proteins known to act downstream of GCN1, giving insight into how signaling occurs from an upstream sensor of ribosome stalling to multiple downstream pathways.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The authors suggest that, based on increased Polysome/Monosome ratios, there is more disome stalling in RNF25 KD cells and RPS27A K113R cells treated with ISRIB, but this readout is very indirect and could be driven by other changes in the cell other than ribosome stalling.

      We thank the reviewer for this important comment. We intentionally used ISRIB in Figure 4F, G to avoid possible effects on initiation, and the results are consistent with our model. While we agree that ISRIB itself might have indirect consequences, these should be the same for the control (WT cells) and the assay condition (K113R cells). We also show the data without ISRIB, which show a similar trend but are less robust (Figure 4D, E). It is very hard to exclude other possible effects which would selectively affect K113R cells in presence of ISRIB.

      (2) While the authors propose that GCN2 and RNF25 compete for binding to GCN1, no evidence was shown that RNF25 binds to GCN1 in cells, nor that the interaction increases when GCN2 is absent.

      The idea of RNF25 binding to GCN1 is based on a previously published work (Oltion et al., 2023, Seidel et al., 2026, Zhao et al., 2026). We will design additional experiments to potentially confirm the interaction between RNF25 and GCN1.

      (3) The use of USP16 to enhance the detection of ubi-RPS27A in many experiments brings the question of whether USP16 KO may alter the protein levels of any known regulators of ribosome collisions? (i.e. ZNF598, GCN1, EDF1, ZAKalpha, etc.) If USP16 KO causes changes in other important regulators of collisions, the authors could be identifying genetic interactions with USP16 in their experiments throughout the paper.

      Indeed, we can’t exclude the effect of USP16 KO on the expression levels of other collision sensors. We will experimentally confirm the levels of other ribosome collision sensors in USP16 KO cells.

      (4) In Figure 5E, the expression level of the GCN2 3K RWD domain looks to be lower than the WT RWD domain; perhaps this could be what is driving the smaller decrease of ubi-RPS27A seen with GCN2 3K vs WT.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing at this issue, which we will experimentally address in the revised version.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study examines the role of RNF25 in translational quality control. Previous work indicated that RNF25 is activated by ribosomes stalled with defective elongation or termination factors bound in the A-site. Here, the authors provide evidence that RNF25 is activated by other treatments that evoke ribosome stalling, including amino acid starvation, where the A-site may be empty, leading to ubiquitination of RPS27A in a manner requiring the ISR collision sensor Gcn1, but not EDF1 and ZAKα, involved in the RQC and RSR surveillance pathways. They present some evidence from polysome profiling that RNF25 and its ubiquitination of RPS7A help resolve ribosome collisions and support translation elongation in basal conditions. They further show that KO of Gcn2 increases RPS27A ubiquitination in basal conditions, but not in amino acid-starved cells, and that RPS27A ubiquitination was reduced on overexpressing the WT RWD domain of Gcn2 but not a variant harboring substitutions of residues predicted to bind Gcn1. Based on these findings, they propose a model that, in response to ribosome stalling induced by various stresses, Gcn1 recruits RNF25 via the latter's RWD domain to ubiquitinate RPS27A and thereby resolve ribosome stalling and promote continued elongation. If collisions increase even further, GCN1 recruits GCN2 instead of RNF25 to elicit the ISR.

      Strengths:

      The data is convincing that a variety of triggers leading to diverse stalled ribosomal states, including amino acid limitation, can activate RNF25, suggesting that activation of this pathway does not require the presence of trapped protein factors in the ribosomal A-site but is a more general response to ribosome collisions. It is also convincing that Gcn1 is required for RNF25 activation under all of these conditions, which is consistent with previous findings that Gcn1 is required for RNF25 function in the presence of trapped elongation or termination factors. The finding that EDF1 and ZAK are not needed for RNF25 activation in amino acid starvation conditions is of interest for EDF1, given the recent claim that it is required for full ISR activation.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The evidence presented from polysome profiling that RNF25 helps resolve naturally occurring ribosome collisions in basal conditions is not compelling, as eliminating RNF25 could be increasing the rate of initiation rather than increasing stalled ribosomes as the means of increasing the P/M ratio. The Rps27A-K113R mutation could have the same effect of increasing initiation, which could have been obscured by inhibiting the ISR with ISRIB.

      Our results indicate that P/M ratio increases upon ISRIB treatment of K113R cells compared to WT cells, aligning with the idea that ISRIB enhances initiation, causing increased loading of ribosomes on mRNA and consequent increased frequency of collisions. As outlined above, we agree that this experiment is indirect and results might be affected by secondary effects. However, we cannot rationalize how inhibition of the ISR by ISRIB would specifically obscure the effect for the K113R mutation but not the WT.

      (2) The evidence that RNF25 competes with Gcn2 for Gcn1 binding is also not compelling. While it's convincing that Rps27A-Ubi is elevated in basal conditions on eliminating Gcn2, loss of GCN2 would be expected to increase ribosome loading on mRNAs, potentially elevating the frequency of collisions and thereby stimulating RNF25 activity indirectly.

      We have not made sufficiently clear that we did not intend to claim that RNF25 efficiently competes with GCN2 (see also response to reviewer 1), which we do not expect due to the low levels of RNF25. Our manuscript is focussed on competition in the reverse direction, i.e. of GCN2 with RNF25.

      We agree that loss of GCN2 may increase ribosome loading on mRNA similar to ISRIB treatment, which could lead to more collisions by enhanced translation and hence increased Rps27A-Ubi. At the same time, however, this does not exclude that loss of GCN2 contributes more directly at the level of RNF25 recruitment. Therefore, the experiment also supports the competition model, and both effects together may contribute to the observed increase in ubiquitylated RPS27A/eS31. Without other evidence, the experiment would remain inconclusive.

      Therefore, to directly test the competition model, we had overexpressed the GCN1-binding RWD domain of GCN2, which leads to decreased levels of ubiquitinated RPS27A/eS31, lending direct support to the competition model of GCN2 with RNF25, which is consistent with similar models recently proposed by two other manuscripts (Seidel et al., 2026, Zhao et al., 2026).

      (3) It's also quite puzzling and left unexplained why they observed no further increase in Rps27AUbi on -Arg/-Lys starvation in the cells lacking Gcn2. Why wouldn't -Arg/-Lys starvation lead to further stalling and RNF25 activation in the absence of Gcn2? (Since Gcn2 KO increases Rps27A-Ubi in the presence +Arg/+Lys conditions, it can't be that Gcn2 is required for RNF25 function.) The same puzzling and unresolved observation was made in the cells lacking DRG2. One possible explanation for this conundrum is that low-level RNF25 abundance limits further activation.

      Over all of our experiments, we have observed that RPS27A-Ubi reaches a plateau of about 30% to 35% of total RPS27A in the USP16 KO background (GCN2 deletion or amino acid starvation). This plateau indeed limits seeing further increases. We do not know the underlying reason but note that under these conditions about one third of 40S subunits carry ubiquitin on RPS27A/eS31. As the reviewer suggests, RNF25 is expressed at low levels (in the range of 23’000 molecules, (Itzhak et al., 2016); see point 5 of reviewer 1), likely rendering it the limiting factor for further ubiquitination events.

      To circumvent the plateau issue, we will attempt to generate GCN2 KO cell lines in the WT background for the starvation experiments (see also response to reviewer 1, point 5).

      (4) The quantitative effects of overexpressing the Gcn2 RWD domain on Rps27A-Ubi, constituting their other evidence presented to support the competition model, are quite small in magnitude.

      We respectfully disagree with the reviewers’ comment concerning the magnitude of the effect. There is a ~27% decrease in ubiquitination, which is substantial considering the number of 40S ribosomal subunits and possible consequences of such change. It should also be noted that this is a transient transfection experiment not hitting all cells of the population. We will repeat the experiment, optimizing the expression of the negative control construct.

      Cited literature:

      Chatterjee S, Naeli P, Onar O, Simms N, Garzia A, Hackett A, Coyle K, Harris Snell P, McGirr T, Sawant TN et al. (2024) Ribosome Quality Control mitigates the cytotoxicity of ribosome collisions induced by 5-Fluorouracil. Nucleic Acids Res 52: 12534-12548

      Darnell AM, Subramaniam AR, O'Shea EK (2018) Translational Control through Differential Ribosome Pausing during Amino Acid Limitation in Mammalian Cells. Mol Cell 71: 229-243 e11

      Garzia A, Jafarnejad SM, Meyer C, Chapat C, Gogakos T, Morozov P, Amiri M, Shapiro M, Molina H, Tuschl T et al. (2017) The E3 ubiquitin ligase and RNA-binding protein ZNF598 orchestrates ribosome quality control of premature polyadenylated mRNAs. Nat Commun 8: 16056

      Gurzeler LA, Link M, Ibig Y, Schmidt I, Galuba O, Schoenbett J, Gasser-Didierlaurant C, Parker CN, Mao X, Bitsch F et al. (2023) Drug-induced eRF1 degradation promotes readthrough and reveals a new branch of ribosome quality control. Cell Rep 42: 113056

      Itzhak DN, Tyanova S, Cox J, Borner GH (2016) Global, quantitative and dynamic mapping of protein subcellular localization. Elife 5

      Juszkiewicz S, Chandrasekaran V, Lin Z, Kraatz S, Ramakrishnan V, Hegde RS (2018) ZNF598 Is a Quality Control Sensor of Collided Ribosomes. Mol Cell 72: 469-481 e7

      Montellese C, van den Heuvel J, Ashiono C, Dorner K, Melnik A, Jonas S, Zemp I, Picotti P, Gillet LC, Kutay U (2020) USP16 counteracts mono-ubiquitination of RPS27a and promotes maturation of the 40S ribosomal subunit. Elife 9  

      Oltion K, Carelli JD, Yang T, See SK, Wang HY, Kampmann M, Taunton J (2023) An E3 ligase network engages GCN1 to promote the degradation of translation factors on stalled ribosomes. Cell 186: 346-362 e17

      Pochopien AA, Beckert B, Kasvandik S, Berninghausen O, Beckmann R, Tenson T, Wilson DN (2021) Structure of Gcn1 bound to stalled and colliding 80S ribosomes. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 118

      Seidel AS, Nemcekova L, Grønbæk-Thygesen M, Shi X, Ramalho S, Mordente KC, Bekker-Jensen S, Haahr P (2026) RNF25 restrains GCN2 hyperactivation to sustain protein synthesis and cell proliferation in response to RNA damage. bioRxiv

      Sinha NK, Ordureau A, Best K, Saba JA, Zinshteyn B, Sundaramoorthy E, Fulzele A, Garshott DM, Denk T, Thoms M et al. (2020) EDF1 coordinates cellular responses to ribosome collisions. Elife 9

      Stoneley M, Harvey RF, Mulroney TE, Mordue R, Jukes-Jones R, Cain K, Lilley KS, Sawarkar R, Willis AE (2022) Unresolved stalled ribosome complexes restrict cell-cycle progression after genotoxic stress. Mol Cell 82: 1557-1572 e7

      Wu CC, Peterson A, Zinshteyn B, Regot S, Green R (2020) Ribosome Collisions Trigger General Stress Responses to Regulate Cell Fate. Cell 182: 404-416 e14

      Zhao S, Palma-Chaundler CS, Engel CM, Cordes J, Nixdorf D, Luo MY, Kaya S, Suryo Rahmanto A, van den Heuvel D, Mackens-Kiani T et al. (2026) RNF25 confers mRNA damage tolerance by curbing activation of the integrated stress response. Mol Cell 86: 1275-1292 e12

    1. eLife Assessment

      Using a genetic screen in C. elegans, Benbow et al., identify mutations in alpha-tubulin genes that suppress Tau-induced neurodegenerative phenotypes. The results provide solid support the authors' claim that the tubulin mutants protect against neurodegeneration without altering tau aggregation and hyperphosphorylation. While precise mechanisms of protection by tubulin mutants remain to be established, the results are valuable for understanding the underlying cellular mechanisms of Tauopathies and for the development of therapeutic interventions.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study identifies mutations in alpha-tubulin that suppress Tau-induced neurodegeneration using the C. elegans model of Tauopathy, suggesting a potentially interesting role for microtubule properties in modulating Tau toxicity. These missense mutations cluster in the C-terminal Tau-interacting helix 12 region of alpha-tubulin genes (tba-1, tba-2, and mec-12). Further analysis, particularly using the strongest suppressor tba-2, shows that it rescues Tau-induced behavioral deficits and neuronal loss without significantly altering bulk tau-phosphorylation, aggregation, or binding to soluble tubulin. The authors suggest that altered microtubule properties underlie the neuroprotective effects, and manipulating microtubule properties may have therapeutic potential.

      Strengths:

      The study is conceptually interesting as it shows that Tau-induced neurotoxicity can, in this model, be partially uncoupled from canonical pathological hallmarks such as Tau-hyperphosphorylation and aggregation. The identification of multiple independent mutations in the same structural region of three alpha-tubulin genes provides support for the functional relevance of helix 12 in modulating Tau-induced toxicity. The authors demonstrate significant rescue of behavioral deficits (using motility and manual thrashing assays) and neuronal loss in both WT-tau and FTLD-associated TauV337M in combination with mutant alpha-tubulins, suggesting a general mechanism for tubulin-regulated modulation of Tau-toxicity. Moreover, the correlation between mutant tubulin expression levels and the extent of rescue supports a causal relationship.

      Weaknesses:

      One of the major claims of this manuscript is that altered microtubule properties suppress Tau toxicity. The only supporting evidence in this context provided by the authors is reduced taxol-stabilized microtubule mass, which does not fully explain neuronal loss or the rescue of behavioral deficits. What remains unclear is whether these mutations alter microtubule dynamics, catastrophe, lattice stability, or axonal transport.

      The authors show that mutant tba-2 reduces total tau levels by ~45%. This level of reduction is likely significant but underexplored in the manuscript. Why are the Tau levels reduced? How is Tau getting cleared- is there enhanced autophagy or ubiquitin-proteasome pathway getting upregulated in tba-2 + Tau animals? Or one or more of the Tau species not detectable by the antibodies used in this study? The observation that the mec-12 mutant rescues Tau-induced phenotypes without altering Tau levels suggests that suppression can occur through Tau-independent mechanisms. This raises an important unresolved question regarding the extent to which suppression is Tau-dependent vs Tau-independent across different mutant alpha-tubulin genes, complicating the interpretation of the rescue phenotypes.

      Given that Tau primarily associates with the microtubule lattice in vivo, measuring interactions with soluble tubulin may not fully capture biologically relevant binding dynamics and therefore does not exclude the possibility that these mutations alter tau-microtubule interactions at the lattice level or may affect the binding of other MAPs/regulators, thereby altering stability or trafficking.

      A large body of conclusions is drawn from behavioral rescue and biochemical assays. This limits the understanding of how molecular changes in tubulin might affect cellular mechanisms of neuroprotection. Are there changes in the neuronal microtubule organization, Tau localization, or its redistribution in the mutant alpha-tubulin background? Are there differences in soluble vs oligomeric vs insoluble Tau in mutant tba-2 and mec-12 animals?

      The suppression of behavior in the co-pathology model is interesting but mechanistically insufficient, mainly because the underlying basis of suppression is not examined in these models. Moreover, it remains unclear whether tubulin-Tau genetically interacts with Aβ or TDP-43, and what cellular mechanisms account for the partial rescue observed in these co-pathology models.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript by Benbow et al. identifies, through a genetic screen, key tubulin mutants that, with high confidence, rescue tau-mediated ND phenotypes. This manuscript is well written, and the experimental results strongly support the authors' claims that these tubulin mutants can rescue ND-linked phenotypes in C. elegans while having little to no direct effect on Tau aggregation.

      Strengths:

      Benbow et al. use a relatively unbiased forward genetic screen to identify mutations associated with phenotypes that suppress tauopathy-related defects. The authors then logically focus on the various α-tubulin missense mutations identified in H12, which are known to localize to the external face of microtubules. The authors also carefully compare their established tauopathy-associated phenotypes in the WT TauH model, with and without specific α-tubulin mutations, using appropriate controls throughout. Lastly, the authors provide partial mechanistic insight into the α-tubulin mutant-mediated rescue, showing that these effects are independent of tau aggregation and tau phosphorylation, and instead suggest that the α-tubulin mutations may confer altered microtubule assembly properties based on the sedimentation assays.

      Weaknesses:

      While the claims are largely supported by the experimental outcomes, the authors at times do not provide enough detail in the text for readers to interpret the data sets independently. In addition, some claims appear to be slightly overstated relative to the data or the degree of error associated with those data.

    4. Author response:

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study identifies mutations in alpha-tubulin that suppress Tau-induced neurodegeneration using the C. elegans model of Tauopathy, suggesting a potentially interesting role for microtubule properties in modulating Tau toxicity. These missense mutations cluster in the C-terminal Tau-interacting helix 12 region of alpha-tubulin genes (tba-1, tba-2, and mec-12). Further analysis, particularly using the strongest suppressor tba-2, shows that it rescues Tau-induced behavioral deficits and neuronal loss without significantly altering bulk tau-phosphorylation, aggregation, or binding to soluble tubulin. The authors suggest that altered microtubule properties underlie the neuroprotective effects, and manipulating microtubule properties may have therapeutic potential.

      Strengths:

      The study is conceptually interesting as it shows that Tau-induced neurotoxicity can, in this model, be partially uncoupled from canonical pathological hallmarks such as Tau-hyperphosphorylation and aggregation. The identification of multiple independent mutations in the same structural region of three alpha-tubulin genes provides support for the functional relevance of helix 12 in modulating Tau-induced toxicity. The authors demonstrate significant rescue of behavioral deficits (using motility and manual thrashing assays) and neuronal loss in both WT-tau and FTLD-associated TauV337M in combination with mutant alpha-tubulins, suggesting a general mechanism for tubulin-regulated modulation of Tau-toxicity. Moreover, the correlation between mutant tubulin expression levels and the extent of rescue supports a causal relationship.

      Weaknesses:

      One of the major claims of this manuscript is that altered microtubule properties suppress Tau toxicity. The only supporting evidence in this context provided by the authors is reduced taxol-stabilized microtubule mass, which does not fully explain neuronal loss or the rescue of behavioral deficits. What remains unclear is whether these mutations alter microtubule dynamics, catastrophe, lattice stability, or axonal transport.

      We agree with Reviewer #1’s critique that the evidence presented does not fully explain neuronal loss and requires further investigation. This first manuscript characterized the mutations discovered through forward genetic screening techniques and provided data to support the positive correlation mutant expression and level of suppression. We believe the studies and data presented here help to formulated the next testable hypotheses, and guide the next lines of experimentation. We are encouraged by Reviewer #1’s assessment that exploration of microtubule dynamics, catastrophe, lattice stability and axonal transport will be critical to testing the hypothesis that mutant tubulin drives suppression of tau toxicity through changes to microtubule properties. These suggestions are highly relevant and align with our priorities as we recently submitted an application for a 5-year research award to support these key questions.

      To address this specifically, the reviewer recommended “The microtubule-dependent axonal transport should be examined in tubulin mutants and compared with mutant tubulin + Tau conditions. Imaging of mitochondrial or synaptic vesicle markers, along with appropriate quantifications (velocity or run length), may provide a functional readout linking microtubule changes to neuronal survival.”

      We agree with the reviewer that these experiments will be highly valuable to further understand the mechanisms underlying suppression, and we have planned to complete these experiments upon receipt of funding that would directly support the completion of these experiments.

      The authors show that mutant tba-2 reduces total tau levels by ~45%. This level of reduction is likely significant but underexplored in the manuscript. Why are the Tau levels reduced? How is Tau getting cleared- is there enhanced autophagy or ubiquitin-proteasome pathway getting upregulated in tba-2 + Tau animals? Or one or more of the Tau species not detectable by the antibodies used in this study? The observation that the mec-12 mutant rescues Tau-induced phenotypes without altering Tau levels suggests that suppression can occur through Tau-independent mechanisms. This raises an important unresolved question regarding the extent to which suppression is Tau-dependent vs Tau-independent across different mutant alpha-tubulin genes, complicating the interpretation of the rescue phenotypes.

      We think the reviewer has addressed an important point that there may be both tau-dependent and tau-independent mechanisms at work here, and we will add greater nuance to this in our discussion. Additionally, we agree these two potential mechanistic pathways merit further exploration. To address this, we have planned to conduct experiments using reporter C. elegans lines crossed with our mutant tubulin/tau-transgenic lines to detect potential upregulation of these pathways as mechanisms for tau clearance.

      Given that Tau primarily associates with the microtubule lattice in vivo, measuring interactions with soluble tubulin may not fully capture biologically relevant binding dynamics and therefore does not exclude the possibility that these mutations alter tau-microtubule interactions at the lattice level or may affect the binding of other MAPs/regulators, thereby altering stability or trafficking.

      In the discussion we acknowledge the limitation of only examining the binding affinity between soluble tubulin and tau and intend to complete further studies with polymerized microtubules containing mutant α-tubulin. We will expand discussion of this in the text. Similar to reviewer 1, we have also concluded that the next line of experimentation will focus on mutant alpha-tubulin effects on the microtubule polymer such as changes to MAP interactions, stability and trafficking. We have applied for and hope to receive funding to address these questions in the near future.

      To address this concern specifically, we plan to conduct these experiments using C. elegans extracts to polymerize microtubules and subsequently test the binding of recombinant human tau. These co-sedimentation experiments are expected to be included in the revised manuscript.

      A large body of conclusions is drawn from behavioral rescue and biochemical assays. This limits the understanding of how molecular changes in tubulin might affect cellular mechanisms of neuroprotection. Are there changes in the neuronal microtubule organization, Tau localization, or its redistribution in the mutant alpha-tubulin background? Are there differences in soluble vs oligomeric vs insoluble Tau in mutant tba-2 and mec-12 animals?

      The reviewer raises relevant questions regarding elucidation of the mechanisms underlying mutant tubulin-mediated suppression at the cellular level. To address this concern we will analyze the cellular distribution of tau in neurons from mutant and non-mutant C. elegans.

      Ultimately, our goals are to identify and connect the underlying biochemical mechanisms with the observed prevention of cell death as Reviewer 1 has identified. Their suggestion to explore cellular-level changes such as mutant tubulin effects on tau distribution is highly relevant. We therefore plan to test this directly by imaging neurons in C. elegans strains expressing fluorescently labeled tau and/or immunohistochemical techniques to stain for tau in C. elegans neurons.

      The suppression of behavior in the co-pathology model is interesting but mechanistically insufficient, mainly because the underlying basis of suppression is not examined in these models. Moreover, it remains unclear whether tubulin-Tau genetically interacts with Aβ or TDP-43, and what cellular mechanisms account for the partial rescue observed in these co-pathology models.

      In agreement with Reviewer #1’s assessment, we have concluded these data, while interesting, do not substantially expand our understanding apart from the existing data. Without additional information regarding the underlying mechanisms, they do not provide substantial novel insights and we have therefore chosen to remove the co-pathology data sets from the revised version of the manuscript to refine the scope of the data and hypotheses discussed in this work.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript by Benbow et al. identifies, through a genetic screen, key tubulin mutants that, with high confidence, rescue tau-mediated ND phenotypes. This manuscript is well written, and the experimental results strongly support the authors' claims that these tubulin mutants can rescue ND-linked phenotypes in C. elegans while having little to no direct effect on Tau aggregation.

      Strengths:

      Benbow et al. use a relatively unbiased forward genetic screen to identify mutations associated with phenotypes that suppress tauopathy-related defects. The authors then logically focus on the various α-tubulin missense mutations identified in H12, which are known to localize to the external face of microtubules. The authors also carefully compare their established tauopathy-associated phenotypes in the WT TauH model, with and without specific α-tubulin mutations, using appropriate controls throughout. Lastly, the authors provide partial mechanistic insight into the α-tubulin mutant-mediated rescue, showing that these effects are independent of tau aggregation and tau phosphorylation, and instead suggest that the α-tubulin mutations may confer altered microtubule assembly properties based on the sedimentation assays.

      Weaknesses:

      While the claims are largely supported by the experimental outcomes, the authors at times do not provide enough detail in the text for readers to interpret the data sets independently. In addition, some claims appear to be slightly overstated relative to the data or the degree of error associated with those data.

      We appreciate the feedback regarding the need for additional clarity for independent analysis of the datasets. We will revise the figures and text to increase clarity for the readers. We will review statements and edit language in accordance with their degrees of error as appropriate.

      The authors measure tau binding affinities using soluble tubulin but do not assess tau binding to assembled microtubules. This is an important limitation, as the physiologically relevant interaction involves α/β-tubulin heterodimers, either free or incorporated into the microtubule lattice. Furthermore, the binding analysis appears to focus only on the D429N α-tubulin mutant, which further limits physiological relevance, as β-tubulin, which is also required for normal tau binding, is not explicitly considered.

      We acknowledge that the limited conclusions may be drawn from soluble tubulin interactions with tau and additional analysis with polymerized microtubules will be useful in understanding tau-microtubule binding affinity. The analysis was completed with isolated pools of tubulin from C. elegans, not recombinant mutant tubulin, so this is a heterogenous mixture of tubulin composed of α/β heterodimer subunits, and a mixture of the mutant isotype within the larger pool of wild type isotypes. While this further complicating the analysis, and is the likely source of variability, it incorporates the normal heterodimer subunit biochemistry.

      Given that tau prominently binds the microtubule lattice we agree with the reviewers that the assessment that experiments with polymerized microtubules containing mutant tubulin would offer a greater understanding of the effects of mutant alpha-tubulin on microtubule properties and potential mechanisms of toxic tau suppression. To test this directly we intend to complete co-sedimentation experiments using C. elegans extracts from wild type and mutant tubulin expressing C. elegans incubated with recombinant human tau.

      In conclusion, the thoughtful commentary and suggestions from reviewers will help improve the manuscript. We plan to complete the following experiments to address their concerns.

      (1) Assess tau localization in mutant tba-2 and mec-12 C. elegans as compared to tau-transgenic C. elegans without tubulin mutations. We plan to use immunohistochemical techniques and/or imaging of Dendra2-labeled tau to assess the sub-compartmental distribution of tau in C. elegans neurons. This addresses Reviewer #1’s question of whether the mutant tubulin changes tau localization in neurons.

      (2) Assess changes mutant-tubulin driven changes to tau affinity for polymerized microtubules. To address both reviewers concerns regarding the limitations of biding experiments with tau and soluble tubulin, We plan to use C. elegans extracts to tests whether microtubule polymers containing mutant alpha-tubulin alter tau-microtubule co-sedimentation.

      (3) Using C. elegans reporter lines we plan to assess whether tau clearance occurs in tba-2 mutant tubulin C. elegans through the upregulation of autophagy or ubiquitin degradation pathways.

      (4) Evaluate the neuroprotective effects of mutant alpha-tubulin in cholinergic neurons using a C. elegans strain expressing a fluorescent label specifically in cholinergic neurons.

      We plan to make textual revisions to increase clarity, aid in independent analysis of the presented datasets, and better address the possibility of both tau-dependent and tau-independent mechanisms. We appreciate the Reviewers attentive reading and thoughtful feedback for the improvement of this manuscript.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This potentially valuable study describes the development of protein binders targeting DELE1, a protein involved in activating the integrated stress response when mitochondria are perturbed (the mitoISR pathway. The strategy appears to be successful, as several designed proteins were shown to bind DELE1, disrupt DELE1 oligomerization, and attenuate ISR activation. However, the demonstration of the utility of these inhibitory binders is incomplete, particularly given the limited biological outcomes examined in the current study, thus limiting the significance of the paper in its current form.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The protein DELE1 is a critical component to signal mitochondrial stress to the cytosol: under stress conditions, a truncated form of DELE1, termed DELE1(CTD) accumulates in the cytosol as an oligomer, binds the HRI kinase, which triggers the integrated stress response.

      Leveraging the structural knowledge of the DELE1(CTD) oligomer, this study attempts to interfere with the oligomerization process, using an AI-designed protein that binds to the DELE1(CTD) oligomerization interface. The starting hypothesis is that such a binder shall selectively inhibit the DELE1-signalled mitochondrial stress response. The authors use established AI pipelines (RFdiffusion) to make a series of such binders, characterize them with biochemical methods and a crystal structure of the binder in its free state. When over-expressing the binders in HEK293T cells, the authors report that mitochondrial stress - induced with a drug - does indeed not lead to triggering the stress response, confirming their starting hypothesis.

      The work is an elegant demonstration of how AI-designed proteins can specifically interfere with cellular mechanisms.

      The conclusions of the work are mostly well supported by data; there are some mechanistic gaps, however, about the interaction mechanisms.

      Strengths:

      The study is a nice combination of (i) a clear structure-derived hypothesis on how to interfere with a signalling mechanism, (ii) state-of-the-art protein design tools, (iii) a mostly robust biochemical characterization, and (iv) cellular experiments to demonstrate the effects of the binders.

      Weaknesses:

      The crystal structure of the binder5, while confirming its AlphaFold model, does not provide direct evidence of the binding mode to DELE1. Direct structure determination, using crystallography (which may require cleaving the MBP domain) would make their mechanistic arguments stronger.

      The demonstration that the binders do not inhibit the DELE1-HRI interaction is interesting; however, the underlying mechanism, in particular where the DELE1-HRI binding occurs, is not explored.

      While this study opens perspectives on how to interfere with DELE1-signalling, it is unlikely that these binders are actually useful for medical applications (compared to small-molecule drugs), as acknowledged in the manuscript.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Previous structural analyses of DELE1 by the authors revealed that the first α-helix within the TPR repeat domain provides the oligomeric interface of DELE1, and that DELE1 octamer formation is required for maximal ISR activation. Based on these findings, the authors designed peptides intended to bind this oligomeric interface and showed that these peptides interfere with DELE1 oligomerization in vitro and attenuate ISR activation in cultured cells.

      Strengths:

      The series of in-vitro data sets showing direct binding of the designed peptides to DELE1 and inhibitory effects on its oligomerization are convincing.

      Weaknesses:

      The physiological (or experimental) significance of inhibiting the DELE1-HRI-ISR pathway using these peptides has not been clearly demonstrated, particularly given that the very limited cell biological outcomes are tested in the current manuscript.

    4. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Significance of the findings and the strength of evidence:

      The article presented by Yang et al. describes the development of protein binders targeting the C-terminal domain of the protein DELE1, which is involved in the mitochondrial integrated stress response (mitoISR) pathway. It was shown earlier that DELE1 is imported into the mitochondria and cleaved by the inner mitochondrial membrane protease OMA1, resulting in an N-terminal and C-terminal domain, the latter being transported back into the cytosol, where it interacts and activates the kinase HRI. HRI, in turn, phosphorylates eIF2α, resulting in selective translation of mRNAs encoding proteins involved in stress signalling, such as the transcription factor ATF4. ATF4 activates expression of genes involved in amino acid balance, redox homeostasis and proteostasis. The C-terminal domain of DELE1 (DELE1CTD) was structurally and functionally characterized by earlier by cryo-EM by Jie Yang and co-workers. These studies suggest that it forms an octamer with D4 symmetry consisting of two tetramers arranged in a tail-to-tail arrangement. In this octamers two interfaces were identified, one between the monomers in the tetramers and one connecting the tetramers to form the octamer. In this earlier work, it was also shown by mutational studies that interrupting the first interface has an impact on the OMA1-DELE1-HRI-eIF2α-ATF4 pathway upon mitochondrial stress in human cells. To this end, the authors concluded in the current manuscript that it might be interesting and also of therapeutic interest to develop a protein binder that binds DELE1 and disrupts oligomer formation. The authors set up a de novo protein design approach using RFdiffusion to design a protein scaffold and ProteinMPNN to design the side chains to create protein binders targeting the α-helix α1 in DELE1CTD that is directly involved in the formation of the first interface forming the tetramer. As I am not an expert in protein design, I cannot judge the quality of this data. The candidates were evaluated by AlphaFold3 to confirm complexes formed between the designs and DELE1CTD. In the end, 12 designed protein binders were selected for further analyses. These proteins were recombinantly produced in E. coli and purified. The proteins DELE1 full-length (DELE1fl) and DELE1CTD were produced as MBP-fusion proteins to improve solubility and stability. Co-expression studies with mbp-delet1CTD revealed that 11 out of the 12 binders co-eluted with MBP-DELE1CTD from a size-exclusion chromatography column, indicating complex formation. Without the presence of the binders, MBP-DELE1CTD elutes as a higher oligomer, suggesting that the binders interfere with oligomerisation. Further analyses included the impact of the presence of selected binders on stress-induced ISR. The authors found that different binders had a slightly different impact on the outcome upon treatment with stressors, and also compared two different stressors. This was concluded by assessing the ATP4 protein level by immunoblotting. The interaction of selected binders with DELE1CTD was subsequently confirmed by co-immunoprecipitation experiments. To evaluate whether the impact of the binders is restricted to mitochondrial stress studies, eliciting endoplasmic reticulum stress showed no effect on ATF4 levels. The presence of the binders furthermore impaired recovery of tubulated mitochondria following mitochondrial stress induction, resulting in more fragmented mitochondria. The authors determined a crystal structure of one binder at a resolution of 2.6 Å and performed AlphaFold3 predictions to model the complex between binders and DELE1CTD. The interface is characterized by many hydrophobic residues. From this data, they concluded some interface mutants and tested those concerning their impact on the interaction. Indeed, mutation of these hydrophobic side chains to charged residues interfered with complex formation. Finally, the authors show that binder binding to DELE1CTD does not interfere with the binding of HRI kinase. Overall, the methodology applied is state-of-the-art, and the manuscript is well-written. The design of protein binders targeting DELE1 involved in mitochondrial stress signalling is interesting for basic science to study stress signalling, but also therapeutically. However, as ISR has a positive impact on disease development and ageing, but also a negative one, depending on the degree of activated ISR, a therapeutic use would need to be precisely applied. The study has some weaknesses, and particularly the structural data seems to have severe issues.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This study presents a valuable finding that coordinated changes in epigenetic modifications and three-dimensional chromatin architecture may drive primary trastuzumab resistance in HER2+ breast cancer. Moreover, this manuscript identifies SGK1 as a potential therapeutic target. The evidence supporting the claims of the authors is solid, although the inclusion of a more direct validation of the key findings using tumor samples from patients with clinical trastuzumab resistance would have strengthened the study. The work will be of interest to scientists or clinicians working in the field of BCs.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study investigates epigenetic and three-dimensional chromatin alterations associated with primary trastuzumab resistance in HER2-positive breast cancer using integrated CUT&Tag, RNA-seq, and Micro-C analyses in JIMT1 (resistant) and SKBR3 (sensitive) cell models. The authors identify widespread remodeling of histone modification landscapes, chromatin compartment organization, and promoter-enhancer looping, highlighting SGK1 as a candidate epigenetically activated mediator associated with intrinsic resistance. The manuscript provides a technically solid and extensive multi-omic resource for the study of HER2-positive breast cancer resistance states.

      Strengths:

      The study integrates multiple state-of-the-art epigenomic and chromatin conformation approaches, including CUT&Tag, RNA-seq, and Micro-C, generating a comprehensive dataset that will likely be valuable to the field. The analyses are generally technically rigorous and well executed, and the manuscript is overall clearly written. The integration of chromatin architecture, enhancer activity, transcriptional regulation, and histone modification profiling provides an informative overview of large-scale epigenomic remodeling associated with resistant versus sensitive HER2-positive breast cancer states. The identification of SGK1-associated chromatin activation and enhancer rewiring is particularly interesting and supported by multiple orthogonal datasets.

      The inclusion of both intrinsic and acquired trastuzumab resistance models also strengthens the study conceptually, even if the biological interpretation remains somewhat complex.

      Weaknesses:

      The major limitation of the study is that many of the central mechanistic conclusions remain largely correlative. Although coordinated changes in chromatin architecture, histone modifications, enhancer activity, and SGK1 expression are observed, direct evidence demonstrating that these epigenetic alterations causally drive SGK1 activation or trastuzumab resistance is currently lacking.

      In addition, the interpretation of SGK1 as a broader trastuzumab-resistance driver is somewhat weakened by the analyses in the acquired resistant SKBR3_HR model, where SGK1-associated chromatin and transcriptional changes appear largely absent. This raises the possibility that SGK1 dependency may reflect a lineage- or model-specific vulnerability intrinsic to JIMT1 cells rather than a generalizable resistance mechanism.

      The study also remains descriptive in several sections. Numerous chromatin interactions and compartment changes are cataloged without sufficient biological contextualization or mechanistic integration. As a result, parts of the manuscript currently read more as a comprehensive epigenomic profiling resource than a fully mechanistic study of resistance biology.

      Finally, the translational impact is limited by the lack of patient-level validation linking SGK1 activation to trastuzumab response or clinical outcome in HER2-positive breast cancer cohorts.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Duan, Hua et al. used CUT&Tag and Micro-C to investigate that in primary trastuzumab-resistant HER2+ breast cancer cells, promoter H3K4me3 rather than H3K27me3 is strongly correlated with transcriptional activity. Resistant cells also exhibited more abundant promoter-enhancer loops and enriched cohesin at loop anchors, accompanied by shifts in A/B compartment status. Through multi-omics integration, the authors identified SGK1 as a key gene showing elevated promoter H3K4me3 levels, enhancer activation, strengthened chromatin loops, and upregulated transcription in resistant cells, and validated SGK1 as a potential therapeutic target. These findings reveal the coordinated interplay between three-dimensional chromatin architecture and epigenetic modifications, offering important insights into trastuzumab resistance in HER2+ breast cancer.

      Strengths:

      Previous investigations into trastuzumab resistance have largely focused on genetic mutations or individual epigenetic modifications. In contrast, this study moves beyond genetic or single epigenetic views by integrating histone modifications and 3D chromatin architecture into a unified framework, proposing a synergistic model of promoter H3K4me3, enhancer activation, and chromatin looping that underlies non-genetic resistance. It provides a new conceptual basis for understanding non-genetic resistance mechanisms. Secondly, using high-resolution epigenomic and conformational mapping together with bidirectional in vitro and in vivo functional validation, it establishes a solid link between epigenetic changes and phenotypes, and demonstrates that SGK1 inhibition suppresses tumor growth in a xenograft model, revealing clear translational potential.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) All findings are based on a single pair of cell lines, JIMT1 and SKBR3, which does not allow exclusion of cell line‑specific effects. The authors did not examine SGK1 expression levels, promoter H3K4me3 status, or relevant chromatin loops in tumor tissues from patients with clinical trastuzumab resistance. Consequently, whether the conclusions can be extrapolated to actual patient populations remains unclear, which limits the clinical relevance of the findings. It is recommended that the authors directly validate the key findings using tumor samples from patients with clinical trastuzumab resistance or analyze the correlation between SGK1 expression levels and disease-free survival or pathological complete response using data from public databases for HER2+ breast cancer patients, which would help address the current limitation of lacking clinical sample validation and the uncertainty regarding the association of SGK1 with patient prognosis and treatment response.

      (2) In the Discussion, the authors propose that SGK1 may assume the role of AKT to sustain mTOR activation, thereby bypassing the dependence on HER2 signaling following trastuzumab inhibition. Although this hypothesis is supported by published literature, the present study provides no direct signaling evidence, such as examining phosphorylation changes of SGK1, AKT, mTOR, or their downstream effectors.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This manuscript provides a timely and important statistical re-evaluation of a paper by Epp et al., on the discordance of BOLD and CMRO2 measures. The authors present a convincing case based on rigorous re-analysis of the data that these previous results arise predominantly from uncertainty in measurement, rather than physiological features. These findings have implications that are of importance to all studies of brain function using BOLD FMRI.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      The study by Epp et al. has indeed gotten a lot of attention. As so often in the fMRI literature, some voices had taken the results out of proportion as if this result would suggest that we cannot trust fMRI. This is so, while informed researchers are aware of the capabilities and challenges of BOLD as a measure of neural activity. The paper was discussed and criticized on many aspects from various angles. E.g. with respect to unestablished models of estimating CMRO2, the 40% figure is being overestimated by the mask definition, and expected neuronal and vascular effects underlying the discordance.

      The first publications of these discussions are being shared now. E.g. Chen et al. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41593-026-02288-y. The manuscript at hand augments this discussion. Specifically, the manuscript provides a direct statistical refutation of the recently proposed widespread physiological sign reversal between BOLD and CMRO2.

      By reanalyzing a high-profile dataset, the authors demonstrate that the previously reported 40% discordance rate is an artifact of statistical uncertainty rather than a genuine physiological phenomenon. This critical re-evaluation restores some confidence in the canonical interpretation of BOLD signals that was recently challenged. It highlights the necessity of rigorous statistical validation in quantitative fMRI.

      The following points should be addressed:

      (1) Absence of evidence is taken as evidence of absence

      The group-level significance analysis, summarized in the horizontal bar chart and cortical surface maps, labels non-significant voxels as 'CMRO2 not reliable', and the discussion concludes that positive BOLD responses are predominantly concordant with metabolism.

      The paper treats voxels with non-significant CMRO2 effects as 'statistically uncertain' rather than as potentially reflecting genuine null metabolic changes, conflating absence of evidence with evidence of absence. Because the 77.2% of voxels shown as light orange could reflect either real null metabolism or insufficient power, the paper cannot distinguish between these. This ambiguity matters because a genuine null metabolic response to positive BOLD would itself be physiologically interesting and would not straightforwardly support 'predominant concordance'.

      (2) Contextualization in other current literature

      I feel that the introduction of the paper could also consider the embedding of the current literature about biophysical processes in the negative areas.

      The negative responses have partly been discussed in the literature on quantitative physiology: e.g., Bohraus et al have been able to pinpoint the source of negative CMRO2 in positively activated voxels to large veins (https://doi.org/10.1016/j.celrep.2023.113341). Huber et al. have found that the neurovascular coupling (arterial venous weighting) is different in positively and negatively activated brain areas, making the interpretation of derived parameters on physiology hard.

      (3) Stylistic comments.

      In places, the tone of the language could be revised to ensure that it is perceived as making a constructive contribution to the discussion.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The rebuttal aims to provide a statistical re-evaluation of Epp et al. to investigate the effects of CMRO2 uncertainty on concordance/discordance analysis between BOLD signal responses and CMRO2 change estimates based on an R2 framework. The authors observe markedly higher variance in CMRO2 compared to BOLD, which raises concerns about sign classification purely based on group means/medians.

      Strengths:

      The study is well motivated, and the analytical pipeline is rigorous and has been provided. Overall, the manuscript provides several thoughtful and rigorous analyses that contribute meaningfully to the ongoing discussion surrounding neurovascular coupling and CMRO₂ estimation.

      Weaknesses:

      Some aspects of the analytical framework could be improved, as well as the discussion of the caveats of the methods of this and the original paper.

      (1) The binomial framework discussed on line 110 and described on line 321 reduces continuous ΔBOLD and ΔCMRO2 measurements to binary concordant/discordant labels, which may overemphasize unstable sign flips near zero effect sizes while discarding potentially meaningful magnitude information. The authors acknowledge that this overly strict approach yields very few meaningful voxels. A better justification or explanation of what we are meant to take away from this, other than the variability in the measurement, which is also explored elsewhere, would be helpful to the reader.

      (2) In the methods, in the section entitled: Voxel Selection: BOLD Activation Mask, the authors describe their more traditional univariate statistical method as compared to the PLS approach used in the Epp paper. While I appreciate why the authors chose this approach, which simplifies interpretation, is it possible that this led to a lower number of discordant voxels? If yes, then I would suggest this be also added in the discussion of how the original Epp paper's methodological choices led to the very large percentage of discordant voxels.

      (3) In the original paper, it looks to me like the discordant voxels have low CBF change and low rOEF. The gadolinium-based CBV measurement used to calculate OEF is a measure of total blood volume, while the blood volume that contributes to BOLD resides predominantly in veins and capillaries. Given the long PLD of the ASL acquisition and the total blood volume measurement, it seems to me that it is possible that discordant voxels may have high arterial blood volume, leading to overly large CBV measurement and an underestimation of CBF at this PLD (especially given their young age, for which I would expect ATT to be closer to 1-1.5s based on recent literature). While this is not currently discussed in this paper, it might be relevant to discuss how acquisition choices could bias some voxels towards erroneous CMRO2 estimates, which in turn would lead to these voxels being identified as discordant.

      (4) In the methods, on line 267, the authors describe how they calculated ΔCMRO2 and how it differs from the original paper. A short discussion of how this choice is likely to affect the variance estimates would be warranted, given that the original paper seems to have chosen their method for the explicit purpose of decreasing error propagation. Especially, I wonder if this difference could account for the observation that "77.2% of voxels showed no statistically significant group-level ΔCMRO₂ effect".

    1. eLife Assessment

      This useful study employs longitudinal widefield cortical imaging to investigate how bilateral vision loss reshapes spontaneous activity across the mouse cortex over time, revealing a state-dependent alteration in the locomotion-related modulation of visual cortical activity. The work provides solid support for its main findings and offers a thorough characterization of the large-scale reorganization of cortical dynamics following adult vision loss. However, the mechanistic interpretation remains limited, as the conclusions are based on a single abrupt and irreversible manipulation without sham controls and on a recording approach that cannot resolve the cell-type-specific mechanisms invoked in the discussion.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, the authors perform longitudinal mesoscale calcium imaging of visual and other cortical areas following binocular enucleation (blinding through the removal of the eyes) in adult mice. The study is observational and exploratory, and analyzes changes in the frequency distribution of calcium signals during locomotion and quiescence as a function of time after enucleation. They also analyze correlations between calcium signals in different brain regions to ask how apparent connectivity between regions changes over time. The main conclusions are (1) that there are multiple timescales of plasticity; (2) that the coupling between locomotion and activity in visual areas flips sign after enucleation, and (3) that correlations between brain areas are modulated by this long-lasting plasticity. Overall, the data are likely to be useful to researchers studying the impact of injury and catastrophic loss of sensory inputs on brain reorganization, but it is hard to draw firm conclusions from the observations provided beyond the very general conclusions listed above.

      Strengths:

      (1) The longitudinal imaging of multiple brain areas simultaneously allows the investigators to follow plastic changes in the same animals over time, to address questions about how apparent connectivity and brain state modulation unfold after injury.

      (2) The data suggesting a flip in sign of the coupling between movement and "activity" in visual areas is interesting and potentially novel.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The mesoscale imaging has limitations. In particular, the authors use words/phrases such as "activity" and "functional connectivity" without ever discussing what the measures they provide with this approach (frequency distribution of summed calcium fluctuations, and the correlation between this measure across brain areas) actually mean, or how they approximate spike-based measures or cellular-resolution Ca signals. The manuscript would benefit from an in-depth discussion of these limitations.

      (2) In general, the figures are difficult to follow. In many cases, what is being plotted is hard to extract without a lot of work, and metrics are not well-justified. For example, they calculate the R value between movement power and spectral power of the Ca signal to quantify changes across time in the coupling between movement and activity (Figure 2). But from the example given, this does not look like a continuous relationship, and though R values are significant its not clear that this correlation is a good way of quantifying the change in sign they attempt to document. Figure 7 is impossible to read, and areas quantified are not indicated. The reader should not have to work this hard to figure out what they are plotting.

      (3) It would be reassuring to rule out an effect of repeated imaging on the metrics they describe here. Longitudinal imaging of the same duration without enucleation would be the best control. Alternatively, they do have multiple baseline measurements that they collapse into one value in most of their plots.

      (4) The discussion is very long. They spend a lot of time trying to relate their findings to the larger literature on visual deprivation, but because of differences in paradigms (enucleation, laser ablation, visual deprivation, binocular vs monocular) and differences in measures (see point 1), it's hard to draw conclusions. In my view, the manuscript would benefit from less speculation about plasticity mechanisms and more discussion of the strengths and weaknesses of their approach.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study uses cortex-wide mesoscopic calcium imaging to investigate how adult vision loss induced by bilateral enucleation alters spontaneous cortical activity across behavioral states, including quiescence, locomotion, and anesthesia. The authors perform longitudinal imaging over two time scales, spanning days to weeks and weeks to months after enucleation, enabling them to track the changes of cortical reorganization.

      The main findings are that oscillatory activity in V1 undergoes a strong reversal in its relationship to behavioral state. Before enucleation, V1 activity is positively correlated with locomotion and negatively correlated with quiescence, whereas after vision loss, this pattern reverses. State-transition dynamics are similarly altered: locomotion onset shows reduced V1 activation, while cessation of locomotion is associated with increased activity after enucleation, while it caused suppression during baseline. In addition, the authors report an increase in slow-wave (0.1-4 Hz) activity in V1 after enucleation, starting in the first week and lasting over many weeks. Although these effects show partial recovery over time, many abnormalities persist for weeks to months.

      At the network level, the study reveals altered large-scale cortical organization, including reduced functional connectivity involving V1 that appears to remain impaired.

      Strengths:

      Overall, the work provides a thorough characterization of how adult vision loss reshapes cortical dynamics, particularly with respect to behavioral-state modulation.

      Weaknesses:

      However, there is also a lack of clarity due to the way the data are presented. Moreover, the study remains largely descriptive, as it does not address the mechanisms underlying these changes or their functional significance, making it difficult to interpret the broader implications of the observed cortical reorganization.

    4. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors track cortical activity across the dorsal cortex of head-fixed mice for up to ten weeks following bilateral eye removal, asking how the cortex reorganizes over an extended period after vision loss. They report a rapid and long-lasting reversal of the normal relationship between movement and visual cortex activity, together with a delayed, weeks-long window of enhanced slow-wave activity during rest and a persistent reorganization of large-scale cortical correlations.

      Strengths:

      The longitudinal scope is the work's strength. Tracking the same animals over a ten-week window after sensory loss is technically demanding and rarely done, and it yields a temporal picture that short studies cannot provide. The observation that the movement-related activation of the visual cortex inverts within a day and only partially recovers over weeks is striking and has not been documented at this timescale. The analysis is internally consistent across two protocols (short- and long-term) and frames the changes by behavioral state, focusing on rest versus movement. This is a useful analysis that the field has not systematically applied to studies of deprivation.

      Weaknesses:

      The manipulation is unusually severe: removing both eyes eliminates patterned vision, non-image-forming light input, and all residual retinal signals abruptly and irreversibly, in contrast to the milder and often reversible manipulations the discussion draws on. Without a sham-surgery control, the early effects cannot be cleanly separated from the surgery itself.

      The language of "plasticity" runs ahead of what the data actually measure, since the study quantifies spontaneous activity and pairwise correlations but does not assess receptive fields, evoked responses, synaptic changes, or the causal manipulation of any candidate circuit. The discussion nevertheless attributes findings to specific interneuron circuits, molecular pathways, and thalamocortical reorganization, none of which are tested in this study.

      The imaging method also constrains what can be claimed: widefield calcium signals are dominated by superficial-layer and excitatory output and cannot resolve the cell-type-specific mechanisms invoked in the discussion. Because the key findings lie in the low-frequency band where vascular contamination is greatest, the hemodynamic correction, particularly in the deprived state, where vascular tone itself may be altered, deserves more validation than it currently receives.

      Finally, the presentation relies heavily on group-level heatmaps in the main figures, with raw traces, spectrograms, and per-animal trajectories at the key inflection points (day 1, week 1, week 10) largely absent. This makes it difficult to judge whether the reported patterns are coherent across animals.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This is a valuable paper that compares various deep learning models, trained with different objective functions, on their ability to predict fMRI data collected during naturalistic video gameplay. The data and analysis provide solid within-distribution evidence that models trained with PPO and imitation learning outperform untrained models and standard convolutional networks. However, the evidence for brittleness in out-of-distribution encoding remains incomplete, as the claim that this stems from the networks' training rather than from alternative causes-like overfitting of ridge regression parameters-is not yet fully supported.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study uses an encoding model approach to compare a range of different deep learning models in predicting functional MRI data, collected while participants played the game "Super Mario Bros" inside the scanner. The fMRI data is rich, within-subject data, with around 15 hours of gameplay for each of five participants who took part in the study. A range of models are compared, including deep RL models (PPO), behaviour cloning (imitation learning), supervised visual models (ResNet), and untrained but structurally equivalent models. The main metric of model comparison is brain prediction (i.e., cross-validated R^2, and within-subject generalisation to out-of-distribution gameplay), rather than focussing on which model features are being encoded.

      The core results are:

      (1) The deep RL and imitation learning models show a modest improvement in prediction accuracy relative to the untrained and visual models (around a 1-2% increase in R^2). Notably, this is against a background in which the untrained model - essentially random projections of the gameplay pixels - can explain around 6 or 7% of the variance in fMRI data (Figure 2). So, the improvement in model fit is a small (but significant) one, and a major driver of prediction scores appears to be low-level visual stimulation as opposed to gameplay prediction.

      (2) There is little variation across layers in prediction accuracy in the trained models. In the untrained model, prediction accuracy drops across layers. This suggests that the prediction accuracy in this untrained model results from its (early-layer) representations being closer to what is presented on screen - as the random weights move the untrained model's representation away from sensory features, it becomes less predictive of the brain. In a trained model, meaningful representations are maintained in deeper layers - and interestingly, there is no clear correspondence between layers of the model and layers of the visual pathway.

      (iii) There is a noticeable improvement in brain prediction by both the deep RL and imitation models with model training. In other words, the 1-2% increase in R^2 mentioned in point (i) is a result of the training, rather than any other factor.

      (iv) None of the models, including the untrained model, perform well in generalising to out-of-distribution data held out from the training/evaluation. This leads to the claim that the brain's encoding representations are 'brittle'.

      Strengths:

      (1) A major strength of the dataset is that it contains rich, extended naturalistic gameplay data within individual subjects. This mirrors some of the advantages seen in other naturalistic datasets (e.g., natural scenes dataset, storybook listening, video watching) - but there are very few examples of such data where the subject is controlling or generating the behaviour in the naturalistic task. This allows potentially new questions to be asked about how these representations are learned across time, within individual participants.

      (2) A further strength of the manuscript is the clarity with which the aims and hypotheses are articulated in the introduction, and evaluated/discussed throughout the paper. This provides a clear set of objective criteria against which to evaluate the performance of the resulting models; the paper is also written in a very clear and honest way, in that some of the a priori hypotheses are not supported - this makes for a more transparent report than one written in an a posteriori manner.

      (3) Finally, although the results in comparing different models are perhaps not as impressive as one might have hoped, the authors have been quite careful in making the models comparable in terms of their architecture and number of parameters, etc. This means that any variation in prediction is likely attributable to the different objective functions used to train the models, rather than other features of the model architecture.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The work is currently framed as "training neural networks from scratch...leads to brittle brain encoding" - but I'm not sure that the results fully support this. First, the brittleness is still present in the untrained network (i.e., random projections of pixels), as shown in Figure 5b. This implies that the brittleness may not be a consequence of the network training, but of overfitting to the encoding (ridge regression) model of the fMRI data (as the authors acknowledge when presenting these results). I would instead encourage the authors to shift the emphasis slightly towards the (modest) improvement in prediction using the RL/imitation objectives, and/or the (similarly modest) improvement in prediction with training, rather than foregrounding the brittleness of the encoding.

      (2) While the analyses of how model prediction improves with training are nice, it is a shame that there is no consideration of how prediction improves (or otherwise) across the training of the participants. Do participants improve across the 15 hours of gameplay - or do they, for instance, become more predictable by the imitation learning model? Is this more true in the naïve participants than those with extensive past experience of Mario? And does this in any way lead to better alignment with model predictions across sessions? These all seemed like natural questions that could benefit from the unique longitudinal nature of this dataset, and it seemed a shame that they were not touched upon at all.

      (3) While there is little variation between the models in terms of predictive performance, it is currently a little unclear whether this is simply due to fitting a set of highly parameterised models to the data, or because the models are themselves fundamentally similar in their representations. One way to address the latter point might be to perform some kind of RSA or CKA (Kornblith et al, arXiv 2019; Williams et al, bioRxiv 2024) across the layer representations within-model, and between-models, to ask how similar (or different) the learned representations are between the different models used for fMRI prediction.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This paper aims to test whether training models to play video games from visual inputs through reinforcement learning leads to better matches to human visual encoding during gameplay, compared to models with the same architecture and training images but with different training objectives. The authors find a slight advantage for the RL model, but encoding performance and generalization overall are weak and variable.

      Strengths:

      This was a reasonable hypothesis to test, and the model comparisons adequately represent other possibilities for training a model of the given architecture. The ResNet proxy is a particularly interesting way to benefit from a larger model's pre-training while still using the same constrained architecture and training set.

      Weaknesses:

      I always prefer to see learning curves for models on the tasks they were trained on, just to contextualize their performance on the brain encoding results, but they are not shown here.

      The paper misses some of the relevant literature that has performed similar comparisons across learning objectives for visual encoding models, such as https://arxiv.org/abs/2112.02027 and https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10569538/

      The authors end up advocating for the idea that large-scale pre-training is needed in order to build good visual encoders for matching human data. In many ways, this was already known (given that brain encoding scores scale with imagenet performance, which requires at least a moderate amount of general-purpose image training to achieve). However, they also note that "the brain encoding performance of the ResNet model was not significantly different from that of the Untrained model." I would assume that an ImageNet-trained ResNet would be in the direction of the type of large-scale pre-trained model the authors advocate for (even when not trained for action generation), yet their results don't support this direction being the solution. Are their results about Resnet not surpassing an untrained model consistent with prior work, and if not, why not? How do they view this in light of their argument for the use of larger models?

    4. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary

      In this paper, the authors have 5 human subjects learn to play Super Mario Bros while undergoing fMRI for 15 hrs each. They compare a reinforcement learning (RL) model (PPO), an imitation learning (IL) model, and a vision model (ResNet) in their ability to play the game, match human behavior, and, critically, explain human brain activity.

      The key findings can be summarized as follows:

      (1) RL, IL, and vision models explain similar amounts of variance in the BOLD signal (Fig 2a), with a significant but small trend of RL > IL > ResNet (Tab 1).

      (2) Untrained models with the same architecture explain a smaller but very similar amount of variance (Figure 2a, Table 1).

      (3) The brain maps across all models (and layers) are strikingly similar, with the strongest effects in visual, parietal, and motor regions (Figures 2b, 2d; Supplementary Material II).

      (4) Behavioral and neural performance are correlated across model checkpoints (but not levels), such that later checkpoints in training have better behavioral and neural encoding performance (Figures 3 & 4), although the neural effect plateaus pretty quickly.

      (5) Out-of-distribution performance is quite poor, both behaviorally (Figure 5a) and neurally (Figure 5b).

      I believe this work will be of interest to neuroscientists, cognitive scientists, and AI researchers alike. There has been a growing trend in neuroscience to adopt AI models as cognitive models of complex perception and action, while at the same time, AI researchers are increasingly looking at the brain for inspiration. The key finding of this paper -- that these models fail to generalize to out-of-distribution levels -- questions the core assumptions of this whole enterprise.

      Strengths:

      Unlike previous studies applying machine learning to naturalistic game-play, the authors take great care to make sure their models are evaluated on an equal footing, using equivalent or similar architectures/number of parameters and training data.

      While the number of subjects (5) is relatively small, the amount of data per subject (15 hours) is impressive, which is important for fitting the imitation learning & ResNet models and for obtaining reliable encoding performance for each individual subject. The authors employed a train/val/test split and held out sets, the gold standard in the literature.

      Overall, the paper was well-written and easy to follow. The figures clearly illustrate the main findings.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Missing statistical tests

      I think the main weakness of the paper is that many of the claims are qualitative in nature and lack appropriate statistical tests, for example:

      - "The conv3 layer has the highest brain encoding score";<br /> - "Robust association between task performance and brain encoding" ;<br /> - "Level patterns strongly predict brain encoding";<br /> - "Brain encoding performance was severely degraded";<br /> - "Effect of training on brain encoding was apparent".

      While these effects are indeed qualitatively visible in the figures, it is unclear which of these differences are significant (with the notable exception of Table 1). I believe the paper would benefit substantially if these effects were quantified and every claim were supported by the appropriate statistical tests. As an example, with the exception of Table 1 and the corresponding paragraph, I could not find any p-values in the results section.

      (2) Missing model performance and human-likeness

      Also absent from the results is an assessment of model performance on the task and similarity to human performance/behavior. From Figures 3 and 4, we can see that the game score of PPO is around 500-1000 - how does that compare to the humans? We can also see that the imitation scores for IL are around 0.4-0.7, but what does that mean? Such results would be crucial to assess if the models have indeed learned to play the games and/or imitate the humans, and therefore, whether they would be good candidates as cognitive models (before even looking at brain activity). At minimum, plotting the human versus model game scores (see e.g. Tomov et al. 2023 Neuron, Figure 2) would be helpful; or, if you'd like to dig deeper, showing that human actions are more valuable or more likely under those models (see e.g. Cross et al. 2022 Neuron, Figure 2). It might also be helpful to look at imitation scores for the RL model and game performance of the imitation model -- I suspect they will both be bad, but they can at least serve as informative baselines for their counterparts.

      (3) Possible undertraining

      Relatedly, one possible explanation for why the Untrained model does so well is that all the models may be effectively undertrained. For example, while there are no training curves in the paper, it seems from the spacing of the checkpoint game scores (x-axis on Figure 3c) that the RL model may not have converged yet (it would be helpful if those were somehow colored by training epoch). Showing training curves would be helpful (i.e., something similar to Figure 3a, except with performance on the y-axis).

      Additionally, it would be great to provide more details regarding the PPO training protocol. How many episodes? How many steps per episode? How many steps for all of the training? Similarly, for the imitation learning model: batch size, number of epochs, optimizer, scheduler, etc.

      (4) Mysterious poor encoding performance of Untrained and ResNet models on the held-out set

      Critically, and related to that, I'm a little confused about the Untrained model results on the held-out set (Figure 5b, top row on the right). Why should those be any different from the test set results with the Untrained model (Figure 2a, right, fourth row from the top)? It makes sense why the other models are worse on the held-out set -- they have never been trained on any frames from those levels. However, the untrained model has not been trained on *any* frames from *any* levels, including the test set and the held-out set.

      The same is true for the ResNet model, which is pre-trained on a completely separate data set and yet similarly shows worse performance on the held-out set compared to the test set.

      This cannot be explained by the ridge regression, which has no parameters or hyperparameters fitted on either the test set or the held-out set.

      The big discrepancy in the untrained model & ResNet results between the test and the held-out set makes think that there is something substantially different about the levels in that held-out set; that they are truly out of distribution compared to the other 20 levels (e.g., maybe they're the last 2 hardest levels and look completely differently? e.g. ResNet proxy in Fig 5c shows worse performance than the mean, which is indicative of an anti-correlation). Alternatively, it may be some issue with the analysis pipeline. The poor generalization results are central to the claims of the paper, so I believe this should be clarified.

      (4) Brittleness conclusion rationale

      I'm not quite on board with the author's rationale that "[poor model performance on the out-of-distribution levels] demonstrates that the models we tested are limited in scope and may not provide a valid inference of brain-like processing, as human behavior remains robust and generalizable across levels".

      For one, unlike the models, humans were actually trained on those levels, so it would not be surprising if they perform just as well on them as on the other levels (but do they? Again, it would be great to see some behavioral data from the humans and the models).

      Second, as the authors themselves show, task performance and human-likeness do not really correlate with neural encoding across levels (Fig 4a & b, respectively), so even if model performance remained "robust and generalizable" on the held-out levels, that will not necessarily translate to good neural encoding.

      Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, unless the test set and held-out set were sampled exclusively from the practice phase when the subjects have mastered all the levels (that doesn't seem to be the case, but the authors should clarify), then the humans are continuously learning, which means that their own internal representations of the game are evolving. That's not the case for the models, which I assume are in "inference mode" when their representations are extracted for neural encoding. That is, their weights are frozen. So there's a fundamental mismatch between the mode in which humans are operating (continuously learning and executing) and the mode in which the models are operating (just executing). While this is true for all the levels, it may partially account for the discrepancy in the held-out set specifically.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This study adds important data on the transcriptional identity of the motor neurons innervating eye muscles in larval zebrafish, and shows how disruption to a specific gene, sim1a, impairs the movements of the eye. The evidence supporting the claims is convincing, with bulk and single-cell RNA sequencing as well as functional testing of the vestibulo-ocular reflex. This work will be of interest to developmental biologists and eye movement specialists.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      This study adds important data identifying how ocular motor neurons are transcriptionally specified and identifies additional genes important in ocular motor neuron function. The evidence supporting the claims is convincing, with bulk and single-cell RNA sequencing as well as functional testing of the vestibulo-ocular reflex. This work will be of interest to developmental biologists and eye movement specialists.

      Gershowitz, Hamling, et al investigate genes that specify specific cell populations within cranial motor nuclei III and IV, which control eye movements, by bulk and single-cell RNA sequencing, confirmatory in situ hybridization, and functional studies of vestibulo-ocular reflex in knock-out animals. They take advantage of the timing difference in the generation of dorsal versus ventral cells to selectively mark early-born (dorsal) vs late-born (ventral) cells using the Kaede photolabile protein. They used bulk RNASeq to identify differentially expressed genes between the two populations (which innervate different extraocular muscles). They next used single-cell RNASeq to further identify specific subpopulations of motor neurons and identify 3 main clusters, which broadly map to dorsal CNIII, CNIV, and ventral CNIII. They show that the differentially expressed genes identify subpopulations of neurons, rather than reflecting temporal changes related to cell age via a series of in situ hybridizations across ages. Finally, they show that knock-out of Sim1a, which is unregulated in dorsal nIII neurons, leads to decreased vestibulo-ocular reflex, despite a normal number of neurons in nIII. They tested the knock-out of two other differentially expressed genes, nav2a and onecut1, but found both normal cell number and normal vestibulo-ocular reflex.

      The conclusions of this paper are well supported by the data. As the authors acknowledge, additional experiments would add to the interpretation. Since the Sim1a mutants have normal cell numbers, the authors hypothesize that axon guidance may be disrupted, leading to the phenotype. This could be relatively easily assessed using the Isl1-GFP transgenic line and examining innervation patterns in the extraocular muscles. Additionally, testing horizontal eye movements and eye movements in response to visual, rather than vestibular, inputs would further refine the phenotypes and perhaps identify eye movement abnormalities in the mutant fish with normal VOR.

      More information on why these specific genes were prioritized for functional testing would be helpful, as it is unclear why these three genes were the top candidates.

      The authors should also include a discussion of other subtypes of oculomotor neurons, beyond which muscle they innervate. For example, there are oculomotor neurons that form single neuromuscular junctions on fast, singly-innervated fibers, and there is a separate pool of motor neurons that innervate the slow, multiply-innervated fibers. It would be interesting to note if there were any gene expression differences within the clusters that might represent this subdivision of neurons.

      This data is likely to be of great use to the field in further studies of cranial motor neuron biology.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The goal of the work is to identify genes that are uniquely expressed in subsets of eye muscle-innervating motor neurons, as a way to identify candidate genes for strabismus, a congenital vision disorder in humans. The author's previous work identified birth-order differences that correlate with the positions of neurons in the oculomotor (cranial nerve III) motor nucleus. Here, they use Kaede photoconversion to distinguish early- from late-born neurons and identified transcriptional differences between them by bulk RNA sequencing of FACS-sorted cells. Separately, they used single-cell RNA-Seq to sequence the transcriptomes of 89 extraocular motor neurons. They find signatures of early-born mIII, late-born mIII, and mIV neurons. While there is some overlap in gene expression, some of the differentially expressed genes are confirmed by HCR as being unique to one of these three populations of extraocular motor neurons.

      The authors test the functions of three differentially expressed genes in the vestibulo-ocular reflex by measuring the speed of rotation of the eye in response to the larval fish being tilted 15° from horizontal. One mutant, in the sim1a transcription factor, has markedly slowed responses. Although this is a global knock-out, the authors argue that this defect in the vestibulo-ocular reflex is due to a loss of sim1a function specifically in dorsal mIII neurons because sim1a is not expressed in the two upstream neurons in the vestibulo-ocular reflex circuit.

      Strengths:

      (1) This is the first time that transcriptional differences between and within extraocular muscle-innervating neurons have been described during development. In identifying differentially expressed genes that correspond with anatomical, functional, and temporal subdivisions of these neurons, they support the idea that gene expression programs established early in development underlie the functional differences amongst these neurons.

      (2) The combination of bulk RNA-Seq and single-cell RNA-Seq strengthens the identification of sim1a-expressing early-born mIII neuron subtype.

      (3) The work identifies candidate genes for strabismus.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The authors show that sim1a is only expressed in mIII neurons and no other cells in the vestibulo-ocular reflex, as evidence that the phenotype in sim1a mutants is due to loss of its expression specifically in mIII neurons. However, as the authors note in the discussion, sim1a has other functions in zebrafish, including global calcium homeostasis via specification of the corpuscles of Stannius. The loss of this, or of some other sim1a function, could be indirectly responsible for the slow vestibulo-ocular response in sim1a mutants.

      (2) The authors perform the vestibulo-ocular response test in sim1a mutants at 7 dpf, which is within a day of when the mutants die, raising the concern that the slowed response is due to a dire systemic condition. The argument that nav2 mutants also die at 7 dpf but have a normal response is weak, since death does not always take a single course.

      (3) The evaluation of the sim1a mutant phenotype is limited to the vestibulo-ocular reflex. The authors do not explore whether the oculomotor neuron innervation of target extraocular muscles is affected in sim1a mutants.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This paper presents a valuable theoretical model of cell breakout from spheroids, a situation relevant to tissue invasion and metastasis; a helpful feature of the model is to include the extracellular matrix as a network of springs. The paper explains the interesting observation that fluid-like spheroids made of soft cells appear experimentally more able to remodel the extracellular matrix (ECM) while they generically display smaller mechanical stress, by invoking feedback loops between shape, strain, stress, and adhesion. While the theoretical evidence is solid, the model suffers from topological limitations inherent to the vertex model and leaves open questions regarding the means by which cells achieve cell-level stress amplification. The connection between the model's assumptions and known molecular mechanisms could be developed further.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this article, the authors couple a 3d vertex model to the extracellular matrix and include activity through contractile springs at the edge. They study, sequentially, the distribution of shear stresses in liquid and solid spheroids, the correlation between stress and cell shape, and the spatial distribution of stresses. The authors find that stresses are higher in solid spheroids (somewhat unsurprisingly), but that the stress distributions are wider in the fluid spheroids. Moreover, stress and shape are not correlated with each other in solids (that seems to be due to vertex model peculiarities), but they are for liquids. In contrast, for solids, the stresses are concentrated at the interface.

      The authors attribute a lot of the phenomenology to strain-stiffening properties of vertex models as being akin to a network model (correctly in my opinion). Then they strain individual cells and confirm this link, though I missed any explanation of how they did this. Would it have to be within a medium for computational consistency?

      Finally, they generate an extended vertex model, where they replace the single face linking cells with a double face and mechanoresponsive springs. This allows for stronger coupling of individual cell motion to eventual movement out of the spheroid.

      Strengths:

      Coupling a three-dimensional vertex model to the extracellular matrix, modelled as a crosslinked fiber model, is a computational tour-de-force. Adding activity through fluctuations at the interface is also of the correct symmetry (stresses), instead of the self-propulsion which has been used by other authors, and which is not compatible with Newton's 3rd law. This also allows for accurate back-and-forth mechanical coupling between the cells and the ECM.

      I would like to highlight that deriving vertex model stress tensors in full three dimensions is an open problem due to the complex topology. Any progress is valuable, and decomposing things into tetrahedra like here will allow for connections with, in particular, finite element approaches. Therefore, adding some of these results (eq. 13) to the main text would strengthen the paper in my opinion.

      Adding the nonlinear springs to the VM in the 3rd act is a good idea, and a first step to mechanical feedback. One might argue that at this point, removing the vertex model part would even be an option.

      Weaknesses:

      The paper is written in a very qualitative manner, with all of the model equations and analysis hidden in the supplementary information. I do not understand this choice, as it makes things fuzzy and hard to read. The conclusion is also very long and simply reiterates the previous points.

      At the same time, this paper is rather thin on new results and reads more like a handful of new simulations carried out using the method established in [10] (from largely the same authors). Moving some of the actual results to the main text would help, in particular, the 3d stress formulation and the definitions of different measures.

      Vertex models also have a very clear limitation: They cannot model the transition from a confluent to a non-confluent tissue, and individual cells or groups of cells leaving the spheroid. Even having a surface and having significant deformations of the surface are numerically dicey, so the current model is at the edge of what is feasible. The model as written can only do "invasion" by a single cell moving outward, and then another following it a bit (or not).

      I strongly suspect that further progress on 3d cell models will need particle-based models or models where cells are fully meshed surfaces (some of which are in development currently).

      However, none of these problems is mentioned anywhere in the text. The authors also do not review the increasingly broad zoology of other models.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript concerns the mechanisms by which cells in a spheroid embedded in the extracellular matrix can escape, either as single or multiple cells.

      Strengths:

      Overall, the manuscript is well written and easy to follow. The claims are mostly justified by the data. Some data can be better analyzed and presented to strengthen the conclusion.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The description around Figure 2c is not exactly well supported by their results. While values close to 0 for sigma3 dot g3 for solid-like spheroids indicate little correlation between the direction of maximum stress and maximum elongation, this analysis alone does not imply that highly stressed cells are necessarily less globular. The dot product combines the magnitudes of the two vectors and the angle between them. For the distribution graph, it would be useful to have the cumulative frequency equal 1.

      (2) One of the central claims of the paper is that morphology alone is not a reliable indicator of mechanical state. Since the authors compute cellular stresses and cellular shape in their simulation (i.e., Figure 3a and b), can the authors directly plot these two quantities for individual cells in solid-like and fluid-like spheroids?

      (3) There is experimental evidence showing the solid stress inside a spheroid is higher than at the periphery (e.g., https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms14056). How does this cellular stress relate to these experimental measurements, since they are opposite to what is simulated here (i.e., the authors find max shear stress is lowest in the center and increases towards the boundary, which is opposite to what is measured?

      (4) It's worth pointing out that stress fibers aren't really prominent in cells in 3D spheroids. Nonetheless, cells moving on collagen fibers would have stress fibers and utilize contractile actomyosin bundles to generate traction forces.

      (5) In section 2D, it talks about the result that as the kcc associated with the boundary cell is decreased 10-fold for every 5 percent strain decrease in the fiber target spring length, can this result be shown? I have a hard time seeing where this came from.

      (6) The results of single-cell vs. two-cell breakouts shown in Figure 5 b and c are very qualitative and should be accompanied by some quantitative comparison.

    4. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors describe a mathematical and computational approach used to compute stresses and cellular deformations in a multicellular spheroid embedded in a fiber network. This approach is then used to predict stress and cellular anisotropy distributions in "solid-like" and "fluid-like" spheroids. Simulations show that shear stresses in solid-like spheroids are large and concentrated at the boundary of the spheroid, yet cells do not align with the direction of the largest shear. Conversely, shear stresses in fluid-like spheroids are smaller and uniformly distributed in the spheroid. In this case, cellular elongation is more likely to be aligned with the direction of the largest shear stress. The model and simulations also predict a nonlinear stress-strain relationship that is indicative of strain stiffening. This strain-stiffening is more pronounced in fluid-like spheroids. In an extension of the preliminary polyhedral vertex model, in which cellular interfaces are shared, the authors incorporate mechanical cell-cell interactions via adhesion springs between neighboring vertices. Using this extension, they show that cell breakout is more likely to occur in fluid-like spheroids, where cells are more likely to elongate and stiffen, allowing for larger forces to be exerted on the surrounding fiber network. Furthermore, the authors state that anisotropic cell-cell adhesion is required for multicell streaming during breakout.

      Strengths:

      The modeling and computational approach used in this research is this work's biggest strength. Treating the embedded spheroid as a set of polyhedra, where each polyhedron represents a single cell, is a mechanically robust, yet still tractable way to model multicellular spheroids in three dimensions. Starting with expressions for constraining cell volume and surface area as well as a surface energy term, the authors derive an expression for an averaged stress tensor for each polyhedron. This allows the authors to approximate the stress in each polyhedral cell that is caused by cellular deformations during mechanical interactions with the extracellular fiber matrix. This is a clever and robust approach that is based on fundamental mechanical principles that allow one to make reasonable predications about the mechanical state of the spheroid under a variety of conditions.

      Weaknesses:

      The weakness of the manuscript is the exposition. There are significant pieces of critical information missing from the manuscript that would make the presented work significantly more understandable and better support the authors' claims. Most importantly, many necessary details of the model are missing. I was able to get a better understanding of some of these details by reading the authors' earlier work (ref [10] in the submitted manuscript), and for this reason, I do feel that this work has value. However, several descriptions must be added for the paper to be more readily understandable. These include (1) a better explanation of what drives motion, in particular in the case where no external fiber network is present. (2) What physically distinguishes fluid-like spheroids from solid-like spheroids? Simply stating the value of the parameters s0 with no explanation is not sufficient. (3) An explanation of how histograms in Figure 2 are calculated is necessary. Are these histograms based on one simulation or several simulations? (4) The experimental results are briefly mentioned, but significantly more connection between these results and the numerical results of the cell breakout model is needed. (5) The description of the model that incorporates variable cell-cell attachments and cell breakout is very terse and needs more detail. Moreover, while the description of the results of this model is strong, the figure that illustrates cell breakout (Figure 5) is difficult to interpret. Addressing these and other issues will make the current manuscript, which presents an interesting model and result, much stronger and easier to read.

    5. Author response:

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this article, the authors couple a 3d vertex model to the extracellular matrix and include activity through contractile springs at the edge. They study, sequentially, the distribution of shear stresses in liquid and solid spheroids, the correlation between stress and cell shape, and the spatial distribution of stresses. The authors find that stresses are higher in solid spheroids (somewhat unsurprisingly), but that the stress distributions are wider in the fluid spheroids. Moreover, stress and shape are not correlated with each other in solids (that seems to be due to vertex model peculiarities), but they are for liquids. In contrast, for solids, the stresses are concentrated at the interface. The authors attribute a lot of the phenomenology to strain-stiffening properties of vertex models as being akin to a network model (correctly in my opinion). Then they strain individual cells and confirm this link, though I missed any explanation of how they did this. Would it have to be within a medium for computational consistency?

      We thank the reviewer for this helpful comment. The current manuscript already describes this procedure in Sec. II.C, “Cell strain-stiffening with volume-preserving deformations,” where we state that individual cells are taken from the final spheroid configuration and then strained by imposing a prescribed volume-preserving deformation along their principal elongation axis. Figure 4 then compares the original and strained cells and shows the resulting increase in maximum shear stress.

      We agree, however, that this point was not explained clearly enough. In the revised manuscript, we will make explicit that this is a single-cell deformation test designed to isolate the intrinsic strain-stiffening response of the vertex-model cell. The cell does not need to remain embedded in a surrounding medium for this specific test, since the goal is not to simulate the full coupled cell–ECM dynamics, but rather to measure how the stress of an individual vertex-model cell changes under imposed strain.

      Indeed, single cells can exhibit strain stiffening as presumably can a spheroid. However, given that we are studying strain stiffening in the context of single/few cell breakout, we also plan to measure the stress in the breakout cells in the extended vertex model to determine the extent of strain stiffening given the surrounding medium of fibers and cells.

      Finally, they generate an extended vertex model, where they replace the single face linking cells with a double face and mechanoresponsive springs. This allows for stronger coupling of individual cell motion to eventual movement out of the spheroid.

      Strengths:

      Coupling a three-dimensional vertex model to the extracellular matrix, modelled as a crosslinked fiber model, is a computational tour-de-force. Adding activity through fluctuations at the interface is also of the correct symmetry (stresses), instead of the self-propulsion which has been used by other authors, and which is not compatible with Newton's 3rd law. This also allows for accurate back-and-forth mechanical coupling between the cells and the ECM.

      I would like to highlight that deriving vertex model stress tensors in full three dimensions is an open problem due to the complex topology. Any progress is valuable, and decomposing things into tetrahedra like here will allow for connections with, in particular, finite element approaches. Therefore, adding some of these results (eq. 13) to the main text would strengthen the paper in my opinion.

      Adding the nonlinear springs to the VM in the 3rd act is a good idea, and a first step to mechanical feedback. One might argue that at this point, removing the vertex model part would even be an option.

      Weaknesses:

      The paper is written in a very qualitative manner, with all of the model equations and analysis hidden in the supplementary information. I do not understand this choice, as it makes things fuzzy and hard to read. The conclusion is also very long and simply reiterates the previous points.

      At the same time, this paper is rather thin on new results and reads more like a handful of new simulations carried out using the method established in [10] (from largely the same authors). Moving some of the actual results to the main text would help, in particular, the 3d stress formulation and the definitions of different measures.

      We thank the reviewer for this constructive criticism. We agree that the main text was too qualitative and that placing most of the equations and definitions in the Supplement made the manuscript harder to read. In the revised version, we will move the essential technical material into the main text, including the 3D cell stress formulation, the definitions of maximum shear stress and cell-shape anisotropy, and the stress–shape alignment measure. Longer derivations and implementation details will remain in the Supplement.

      We will also shorten and reorganize the Discussion/Conclusion to avoid reiterating previous points. Finally, we will revise the presentation to make the new contributions beyond Ref. [10] clearer: the 3D polyhedral-cell stress formulation, the stress-distribution and spatialpatterning analyses, the single-cell strain-stiffening test, and the extended adhesion-spring model used to distinguish single-cell from multi-cell breakout. These changes should make the paper less qualitative and make the main results more visible in the body of the manuscript.

      Vertex models also have a very clear limitation: They cannot model the transition from a confluent to a non-confluent tissue, and individual cells or groups of cells leaving the spheroid. Even having a surface and having significant deformations of the surface are numerically dicey, so the current model is at the edge of what is feasible. The model as written can only do "invasion" by a single cell moving outward, and then another following it a bit (or not).

      I strongly suspect that further progress on 3d cell models will need particle-based models or models where cells are fully meshed surfaces (some of which are in development currently).

      However, none of these problems is mentioned anywhere in the text. The authors also do not review the increasingly broad zoology of other models.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this important limitation of standard vertex models. We agree that a strictly confluent 3D vertex model is not designed to fully capture the transition from a confluent tissue to freely migrating detached cells, and we will make this limitation explicit in the revised Discussion. However, the standard 3D vertex model can still capture collective spheroid deformation, surface remodeling, and local protrusive deformations prior to complete breakout. Thus, it remains useful for studying the mechanical state of the spheroid and the onset of outward deformation before full cell detachment.

      At the same time, we clarify that this very limitation motivated the extended vertex model introduced in Sec. II.D and Supplement G. In this model, cells no longer share interfaces as in a standard confluent vertex model; instead, neighboring cells interact through explicit, tunable cell– cell adhesion springs. This allows us to represent, in a coarse-grained mechanical way, the separation of a boundary cell from the spheroid and the motion of a follower cell behind it. Thus, while the model does not describe full post-detachment migration, it partially addresses the confluent-to-nonconfluent transition at the level needed to study the mechanical onset of breakout.

      We will revise the manuscript to make this distinction clearer and state that our goal is to identify minimal mechanical ingredients for incipient breakout—strain stiffening, adhesion weakening, and adhesion anisotropy—rather than to provide a complete model of long-time invasion.

      We will also note that the current Introduction already discusses several existing modeling approaches, including cellular automaton simulations, a 2D Voronoi model, phenotypeswitching/ECM-remodeling models, and the prior 3D vertex–fiber framework. However, we agree that this discussion should be broadened, and we will add a more explicit comparison with particlebased, phase-field, cellular Potts, and fully meshed deformable-surface models, which may be better suited for later-stage non-confluent migration.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript concerns the mechanisms by which cells in a spheroid embedded in the extracellular matrix can escape, either as single or multiple cells.

      Strengths:

      Overall, the manuscript is well written and easy to follow. The claims are mostly justified by the data. Some data can be better analyzed and presented to strengthen the conclusion.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The description around Figure 2c is not exactly well supported by their results. While values close to 0 for sigma3 dot g3 for solid-like spheroids indicate little correlation between the direction of maximum stress and maximum elongation, this analysis alone does not imply that highly stressed cells are necessarily less globular. The dot product combines the magnitudes of the two vectors and the angle between them. For the distribution graph, it would be useful to have the cumulative frequency equal 1.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We agree that the interpretation of Fig. 2c should be stated more carefully. In our calculation, the vectors used in the dot product are normalized eigenvectors of the stress tensor and the gyration tensor. Thus, the plotted quantity measures only directional alignment between the principal stress direction and the cell elongation axis, not the magnitudes of stress or shape anisotropy. We will revise the text to make this explicit.

      We also agree that Fig. 2c alone does not support statements about whether highly stressed cells are more or less globular. It only quantifies alignment between stress and shape directions. To address this, we will add or refer to an additional analysis, such as the correlation between maximum shear stress and cell-shape anisotropy, or the shape-anisotropy distribution conditioned on high-stress cells.

      Finally, we agree that the distribution in Fig. 2c should be normalized more clearly. In the revised figure, we will plot the distribution as a probability density or cumulative distribution with total probability equal to one, and we will update the caption accordingly.

      (2) One of the central claims of the paper is that morphology alone is not a reliable indicator of mechanical state. Since the authors compute cellular stresses and cellular shape in their simulation (i.e., Figure 3a and b), can the authors directly plot these two quantities for individual cells in solidlike and fluid-like spheroids?

      We thank the reviewer for this helpful suggestion. We agree that a direct cell-by-cell comparison of cellular stress and cellular shape would strengthen the central claim that morphology alone is not a reliable indicator of mechanical state. In the revised manuscript, we plan to add scatter plots of maximum shear stress versus cell-shape anisotropy for individual cells in both solid-like and fluid-like spheroids.

      (3) There is experimental evidence showing the solid stress inside a spheroid is higher than at the periphery (e.g., https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms14056). How does this cellular stress relate to these experimental measurements, since they are opposite to what is simulated here (i.e., the authors find max shear stress is lowest in the center and increases towards the boundary, which is opposite to what is measured?

      We thank the reviewer for raising this important point. We agree that the comparison with experimental stress measurements in compressed spheroids should be clarified.

      The main distinction is that the cited experiments measure local pressure, or isotropic compressive stress, from the volume change of embedded elastic beads. In contrast, Fig. 3 in our manuscript shows the cellular maximum shear stress, which reflects the deviatoric part of the cell stress tensor. These quantities do not necessarily have the same spatial profile: a region can be under high isotropic compression while having low shear stress. The loading conditions are also different. The experiments apply external osmotic/mechanical compression to the whole spheroid, whereas our simulations consider active cell–ECM coupling through contractile linker springs at the spheroid boundary. Thus, the elevated boundary shear stress in our model reflects local cell– ECM force transmission, not internal hydrostatic pressure. We indeed will revise the manuscript to make this distinction explicit, cite this experimental work, and avoid implying that maximum shear stress is directly comparable to measured solid pressure. Where appropriate, we will also discuss the isotropic component of the simulated cell stress tensor as a more direct comparison to pressure-based measurements.

      (4) It's worth pointing out that stress fibers aren't really prominent in cells in 3D spheroids. Nonetheless, cells moving on collagen fibers would have stress fibers and utilize contractile actomyosin bundles to generate traction forces.

      We thank the reviewer for this clarification. We did not intend to imply that prominent stress fibers are generally present in cells within the interior of 3D spheroids. The relevant statements in the manuscript were meant to refer to strained boundary cells or cells engaging collagen fibers during mesenchymal-like motion. We will revise the wording in Secs. II.C and II.D to make this distinction explicit and avoid suggesting that bulk spheroid cells generally contain prominent stress fibers.

      (5) In section 2D, it talks about the result that as the kcc associated with the boundary cell is decreased 10-fold for every 5 percent strain decrease in the fiber target spring length, can this result be shown? I have a hard time seeing where this came from.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. The 10-fold decrease in kcc for every 5% decrease in the fiber target spring length was meant as a phenomenological adhesion-weakening protocol, not as a directly measured law. We agree that this was not made clear enough. In the revised manuscript, we will explicitly state this.

      (6) The results of single-cell vs. two-cell breakouts shown in Figure 5 b and c are very qualitative and should be accompanied by some quantitative comparison.

      We thank the reviewer for this helpful suggestion. We agree that the current presentation of Fig. 5b,c is too qualitative. In the revised manuscript, we plan to add a quantitative comparison between the single-cell and two-cell breakout cases. Specifically, we plan to track the displacement of the pulled boundary cell, the separation between this leader cell and its neighboring/follower cell, and the distance between the follower cell and the remaining spheroid as the fiber target length is decreased.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors describe a mathematical and computational approach used to compute stresses and cellular deformations in a multicellular spheroid embedded in a fiber network. This approach is then used to predict stress and cellular anisotropy distributions in "solid-like" and "fluid-like" spheroids. Simulations show that shear stresses in solid-like spheroids are large and concentrated at the boundary of the spheroid, yet cells do not align with the direction of the largest shear. Conversely, shear stresses in fluid-like spheroids are smaller and uniformly distributed in the spheroid. In this case, cellular elongation is more likely to be aligned with the direction of the largest shear stress. The model and simulations also predict a nonlinear stress-strain relationship that is indicative of strain stiffening. This strain-stiffening is more pronounced in fluid-like spheroids. In an extension of the preliminary polyhedral vertex model, in which cellular interfaces are shared, the authors incorporate mechanical cell-cell interactions via adhesion springs between neighboring vertices. Using this extension, they show that cell breakout is more likely to occur in fluid-like spheroids, where cells are more likely to elongate and stiffen, allowing for larger forces to be exerted on the surrounding fiber network. Furthermore, the authors state that anisotropic cellcell adhesion is required for multicell streaming during breakout.

      Strengths:

      The modeling and computational approach used in this research is this work's biggest strength. Treating the embedded spheroid as a set of polyhedra, where each polyhedron represents a single cell, is a mechanically robust, yet still tractable way to model multicellular spheroids in three dimensions. Starting with expressions for constraining cell volume and surface area as well as a surface energy term, the authors derive an expression for an averaged stress tensor for each polyhedron. This allows the authors to approximate the stress in each polyhedral cell that is caused by cellular deformations during mechanical interactions with the extracellular fiber matrix. This is a clever and robust approach that is based on fundamental mechanical principles that allow one to make reasonable predications about the mechanical state of the spheroid under a variety of conditions.

      Weaknesses:

      The weakness of the manuscript is the exposition. There are significant pieces of critical information missing from the manuscript that would make the presented work significantly more understandable and better support the authors' claims. Most importantly, many necessary details of the model are missing. I was able to get a better understanding of some of these details by reading the authors' earlier work (ref [10] in the submitted manuscript), and for this reason, I do feel that this work has value. However, several descriptions must be added for the paper to be more readily understandable.

      These include

      (1) A better explanation of what drives motion, in particular in the case where no external fiber network is present.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We agree that the source of motion should be described more clearly. In the embedded simulations, motion arises from overdamped dynamics driven by the forces from the total mechanical energy, including spheroid mechanics, fibernetwork elasticity, and active contractile linker springs at the boundary. The shortening of the linker-spring target lengths provides the active cell–ECM pulling, while effective fluctuations promote cell-shape fluctuations and rearrangements.

      When no external fiber network is present, these linker-mediated cell–ECM forces are absent. The spheroid then evolves only through vertex-model mechanical relaxation, surface tension, cell rearrangements, and effective fluctuations. We will clarify that this no-network case is a control for the intrinsic spheroid stress state, not a simulation of ECM-driven invasion.

      (2) What physically distinguishes fluid-like spheroids from solid-like spheroids? Simply stating the value of the parameters s0 with no explanation is not sufficient.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out that the physical distinction between solid-like and fluid-like spheroids was not sufficiently explained. We agree that simply stating the values of s_0 is not adequate.

      In this 3D vertex model, the target shape index s_0 controls the mechanical cost of cell rearrangements. Below the rigidity transition (s_0 < s_0^), neighbor exchanges are associated with finite energy barriers, leading to slow structural relaxation and solid-like behavior. Above the transition (s_0 > s_0^), these barriers become very small or vanish, allowing cells to readily move past one another and continuously reorganize their local neighborhood structure. The resulting tissue exhibits fluid-like behavior with efficient stress relaxation through cell rearrangements.

      This distinction was characterized in detail in Ref. [9], where the bulk 3D vertex model was shown to undergo a rigidity transition at approximately (s_0^*=5.39), based on the decay of the neighbor-overlap function and cell trajectories. The solid-like value used here lies below this transition, whereas the fluid-like value lies above it. We acknowledge that the present manuscript only briefly summarized this point, mainly in Supplementary Material A. In the revised manuscript, we will add a clearer explanation in the main text of how the target shape index controls the state of the spheroid and why the selected values correspond to solid-like and fluidlike regimes.

      (3) An explanation of how histograms in Figure 2 are calculated is necessary. Are these histograms based on one simulation or several simulations?

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out that this was not sufficiently clear. The histograms in Fig. 2 are obtained by pooling cell-level quantities from multiple independent simulations, not from a single realization. As listed in Table I, we use 30 independent realizations. We plan to state this explicitly in the revised figure caption and main text.

      (4) The experimental results are briefly mentioned, but significantly more connection between these results and the numerical results of the cell breakout model is needed.

      We agree. In the current manuscript, the experimental data are used mainly to motivate the single-cell and streaming-like breakout modes shown in Fig. 5. We plan to revise Sec. II.D and the Fig. 5 caption to make the connection more explicit: the MEF spheroid experiments show the invasion modes that motivate the model, while the extended vertex model tests minimal mechanical ingredients capable of producing analogous single-cell and follower-cell breakout.

      (5) The description of the model that incorporates variable cell-cell attachments and cell breakout is very terse and needs more detail. Moreover, while the description of the results of this model is strong, the figure that illustrates cell breakout (Figure 5) is difficult to interpret. Addressing these and other issues will make the current manuscript, which presents an interesting model and result, much stronger and easier to read.

      We thank the reviewer for this constructive assessment. We agree that the extended model with variable cell–cell attachments was described too tersely and that Fig. 5b,c was difficult to interpret in its current qualitative form.

      To make Fig. 5 more quantitative, we plan to add measurements comparing the single-cell and two-cell breakout cases. Specifically, we plan to track the displacement of the pulled boundary cell, the separation between this leader cell and its neighboring/follower cell, and the distance between the follower cell and the remaining spheroid as the fiber target length is decreased.

    1. eLife Assessment

      The authors combine experiments and mathematical modeling to determine how the infectivity of human cytomegalovirus scales with the viral concentration in the inoculum, i.e., considering the multiplicity of infection (MOI). They propose and test different model assumptions to explain a mechanism termed "apparent cooperativity" of virions based on an observed super-linear increase of the number of infected cells with increasing inocula. The authors present a solid study showing valuable findings for virologists and quantitative scientists working on the analysis and interpretation of viral infection dynamics for which quantitative knowledge of MOI is needed.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this paper, the authors conduct both experiments and modeling of human cytomegalovirus (HCMV) infection in vitro to study how the infectivity of virus (measured by cell infection) scales with the viral concentration in the inoculum. A naïve thought would be that this is linear in the sense that doubling the virus concentration (and thus the total virus) in the inoculum would lead to double the fraction of infected cells. However, the authors show convincingly that this is not the case for HCMV, using multiple strains, two different target cells, and repeated experiments. In fact, they find that for some regimens (inoculum concentration) infected cells increase faster than the concentration of the inoculum, which they term "apparent cooperativity". The authors then provided possible explanations for this phenomenon and construct mathematical models and simulations to implement these explanations. They show that these ideas do help explain the cooperativity, but can't be conclusive as to what is the correct explanation. In any case, this advances our knowledge of the system and it is very important when quantitative experiments involving MOI are performed.

      Strengths:

      Careful experiments using state-of-the-art methodologies and advancing multiple competing models to explain the data.

      Weaknesses:

      Minor weaknesses in explaining the implementation of the model. However, some specific assumptions, which to this reviewer were unclear, could have substantial impact on the results. For example, whether cell infection is independent or not. This is expanded below.

      In the revised version, the authors address almost all of these minor weaknesses, strengthening the paper and its reproducibility.

      Suggestions to clarify the study:

      In the revised version, the authors carefully consider these suggestions and provide further details, clarifications and even some new results. Regarding the question of how infection of a cell with one virus could lead to lower probability for a secondary infection, I think that it is possible that infected cells activate antiviral programs that lead, for example, to lower expression of surface receptors. This has been considered at least in hepatitis C virus infection. However, this is a minor point.

      Overall, I think the revised version provides a sound study with relevant conclusions, and I thank the authors for their thoughtful consideration of my previous comments.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      In their article, Peterson et al. wanted to show to what extent the classical "single hit" model of virion infection, where always the same quantity of virion is required to infect a cell, does not match with empirical observations based on human cytomegalovirus in vitro infection model, and how this would have practical impacts in experimental protocols.

      Strengths:

      - The use of a very simple and robust experimental assay, where they infected cells with serially diluted virions and measured the proportion of infected cells with flow cytometry. This convincingly showed how the proportion of infected cells differed from a "single hit" model which they simulated using a simple mathematical model ("power-law model"), and better fitted a model where virions need to cooperate to infect cells.

      - The use of different cell types and virus strains, which allows to draw some generalizations.

      - The exploration of the mechanisms that could explain this apparent cooperation, using biologically plausible simulations.

      - The practical consequences that this phenomenon has for lab virologists as well as modelers.

      Weaknesses:

      - The impossibility to discriminate between biological mechanisms is an important limitation of this study and calls for developing experimental designs able to further understand this question.

      - The outcome of the virion clumping remains highly sensitive to the choice of the clumps size distribution, which is itself very complicated to estimate, especially at high dilution.

      - The impossibility to directly fit the mathematical models to the data limit them to a qualitative discussion.

      Overall, this work is very valuable as it raises the general question of how the estimate of infectivity can be biased if extrapolated from a single virus titer assay. The observation that HCMV virions often cooperate and that this cooperation varies between context seems robust. The putative biological explanations would require further exploration.

      This topic is very well known in the case of segmented viruses and the semi-infectious particles, leading to the idea of studying "sociovirology", but to my knowledge this is the first time that it was explored for a non-segmented virus, and in the context of MOI estimation.

    4. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      Public Review:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Suggestions to clarify the study:

      In the revised version, the authors carefully consider these suggestions and provide further details, clarifications and even some new results. Regarding the question of how infection of a cell with one virus could lead to lower probability for a secondary infection, I think that it is possible that infected cells activate antiviral programs that lead, for example, to lower expression of surface receptors. This has been considered at least in hepatitis C virus infection. However, this is a minor point.

      Yes, the possibility that infection of a cell by a virion would reduce chance of infection by another virion was allowed in our model. However, such as a process will not result in apparent cooperativity (n>1) in our model, and thus, is irrelevant to the issue of apparent cooperativity we identified.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      In their article, Peterson et al. wanted to show to what extent the classical "single hit" model of virion infection, where always the same quantity of virion is required to infect a cell, does not match with empirical observations based on human cytomegalovirus in vitro infection model, and how this would have practical impacts in experimental protocols.

      Strengths:

      The use of a very simple and robust experimental assay, where they infected cells with serially diluted virions and measured the proportion of infected cells with flow cytometry. This convincingly showed how the proportion of infected cells differed from a "single hit" model which they simulated using a simple mathematical model ("power-law model"), and better fitted a model where virions need to cooperate to infect cells.

      The use of different cell types and virus strains, which allows to draw some generalizations.

      The exploration of the mechanisms that could explain this apparent cooperation, using biologically plausible simulations.

      The practical consequences that this phenomenon has for lab virologists as well as modelers.

      Thank you.

      Weaknesses:

      The impossibility to discriminate between biological mechanisms is an important limitation of this study and calls for developing experimental designs able to further understand this question.

      The outcome of the virion clumping remains highly sensitive to the choice of the clumps size distribution, which is itself very complicated to estimate, especially at high dilution.

      The impossibility to directly fit the mathematical models to the data limit them to a qualitative discussion.

      Overall, this work is very valuable as it raises the general question of how the estimate of infectivity can be biased if extrapolated from a single virus titer assay. The observation that HCMV virions often cooperate and that this cooperation varies between context seems robust. The putative biological explanations would require further exploration.

      This topic is very well known in the case of segmented viruses and the semi-infectious particles, leading to the idea of studying "sociovirology", but to my knowledge this is the first time that it was explored for a non-segmented virus, and in the context of MOI estimation.

      Thank you. We would note, however, that inability to discriminate between alternative models is not a weakness per se. It shows that our work goes beyond a somewhat typical approach in mathematical modeling to offer a single explanation for a phenomenon in question (rather than focusing on discriminating between alternatives that is often hard to do).

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) I now understand better the graphical abstract. I think my eye was too much attracted by the increase in specific infectivity that you see for more than 1 genome/cell, which is not the point of your paper. I am wondering if you should not guide even more the reader, by pointing out that the fact that the initial decline in specific infectivity represents apparent cooperativity.

      Let’s hope that the readers are smart enough to understand what to focus their eyes on. At the end, this is a graphical abstract that is not supposed to have too much text explaining where to look.

      (2) For your one-inflated geometric distribution, I agree that the estimations would remain very hypothetical because you would have to make many assumptions, however I think a hurdle model where you would fit the P(clump size = 1)=f1 and P(clump size = (i) following a one-truncated geometric distribution would be more appropriate because it would lead to a distribution closer to your PDF from figure S11C.

      The issue is that our data are not in clump sizes but in diameter of the clump D. This is why we opted for using a mixture of continuous distributions, not a mixture of discrete distributions. We are sharing the DLS data, so others are welcome to do another try of fitting other types of distribution to the data.

      (3) For the DLS data, I understand your choice to include all the datapoints, however I find the interpretation confusing: if I understand correctly, you consider that f1, the fraction of the smaller distribution, represents clumps of one virion. However, its median size is 10 times smaller than a virion. So, the number of clumps with one virion would be overestimated. I think it would be helpful for the reader to clarify this aspect, either in the results around lines 503-512, or in the discussion. Could it be that at higher dilution, what is represented by this smaller distribution would almost only be debris because the virions are so rare?

      When fitting a mixture of two log-normal distributions f<sub>1</sub> represents the proportion of clumps of larger size (as was described in the materials and methods). The actual estimated value of f<sub>1</sub> is not highly relevant in calculating change in PDF of the distribution only for D>=d (230nm) as shown in Suppl Fig S11C. But we now realize that this variable f<sub>1</sub> may be confused with a variable f<sub>1</sub> used to denote the fraction of clumps with virion size=1 (in Fig 5C). We now mention that in the caption of Supp Fig S10.

      (4) For the dashed diagonal lines of fig 2, what I don't understand is the choice of the intercept that seems a bit random. I was wondering if it would not be more helpful to make it so that the dashed line intersects the observation for 1 genome/cell, which could then be interpreted as a deviation from the "single hit" model extrapolated outside of 1 genome/cell?

      The diagonal lines in Fig 2 are exactly the same in ALL panels, as are the x/y axes ranges; the slope of the line (equals to 1) allows visually to see when the regression (shown by think black lines) deviates from slope=1, i.e., indicates apparent cooperativity. We will keep the lines are they are. Thank you for the suggestion, though.


      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this paper, the authors conduct both experiments and modeling of human cytomegalovirus (HCMV) infection in vitro to study how the infectivity of the virus (measured by cell infection) scales with the viral concentration in the inoculum. A naïve thought would be that this is linear in the sense that doubling the virus concentration (and thus the total virus) in the inoculum would lead to doubling the fraction of infected cells. However, the authors show convincingly that this is not the case for HCMV, using multiple strains, two different target cells, and repeated experiments. In fact, they find that for some regimens (inoculum concentration), infected cells increase faster than the concentration of the inoculum, which they term "apparent cooperativity". The authors then provided possible explanations for this phenomenon and constructed mathematical models and simulations to implement these explanations. They show that these ideas do help explain the cooperativity, but they can't be conclusive as to what the correct explanation is. In any case, this advances our knowledge of the system, and it is very important when quantitative experiments involving MOI are performed.

      Strengths:

      Careful experiments using state-of-the-art methodologies and advancing multiple competing models to explain the data.

      Weaknesses:

      There are minor weaknesses in explaining the implementation of the model. However, some specific assumptions, which to this reviewer were unclear, could have a substantial impact on the results. For example, whether cell infection is independent or not. This is expanded below.

      Suggestions to clarify the study:

      (1) Mathematically, it is clear what "increase linearly" or "increase faster than linearly" (e.g., line 94) means. However, it may be confusing for some readers to then look at plots such as in Figure 2, which appear linear (but on the log-log scale) and about which the authors also say (line 326) "data best matching the linear relationship on a log-log scale".

      This is a good point. We included a clarification to indicate that linear on the log-log scale relationship does not imply linear relationship on the linear-linear scale. We wrote:

      “Because most data did not exhibit a linear relationship between virion concentration and infection probability we fitted the models to subsets of data best matching a linear relationship on a log-log scale. Note that linear relationship on log-log scale may still be nonlinear (on linear-linear scale) when n!=1.”

      (2) One of the main issues that is unclear to me is whether the authors assume that cell infection is independent of other cells. This could be a very important issue affecting their results, both when analyzing the experimental data and running the simulations. One possible outcome of infection could be the generation of innate mediators that could protect (alter the resistance) of nearby cells. I can imagine two opposite results of this: i) one possibility is that resistance would lead to lower infection frequencies and this would result in apparent sub-linear infection (contrary to the observations); or ii) inoculums with more virus lead to faster infection, which doesn't allow enough time for the "resistance" (innate effect) to spread (potentially leading to results similar to the observations, supra-linear infection).

      In our models we assumed cells to be independent of each other (see also responses to other similar points). Because we measure infection in individual cells, assuming cells are independent is a reasonable first approximation. However, the reviewer makes an excellent point that there may be some between-cell signaling happening in the culture that “alerts” or “conditions” cells to change their “resistance”. It is also possible that at higher genome/cell numbers, exposure of cells to virions or virion debris may change the state of cells in the culture, and more cells become “susceptible” to infection. This is a good point that we now list in Limitations subsection of Discussion; it is a good hypothesis to test in our future experiments. We write:

      “Accrued damage model is also consistent with the idea that at higher genome/cell values, the inoculum itself (including cell and/or virion debris) may impact overall susceptibility of all cells in the well, for example, making them more susceptible to infection. It may be expected, though, that exposing cells to debris would increase cell resistance to infection; this would result in n < 1 that we did not observe at small genomes/cell values.”

      (3) Another unclear aspect of cell infection is whether each cell only has one chance to be infected or multiple chances, i.e., do the authors run the simulation once over all the cells or more times?

      Each cell has only one chance to be infected. Algorithm 1 clearly states that; we will add an extra sentence in “Agent-based simulations” to indicate this point.

      (4) On the other hand, the authors address the complementary issue of the virus acting independently or not, with their clumping model (which includes nice experimental measurements). However, it was unclear to me what the assumption of the simulation is in this case. In the case of infection by a clump of virus or "viral compensation", when infection is successful (the cell becomes infected), how many viruses "disappear" and what happens to the rest? For example, one of the viruses of the clump is removed by infection, but the others are free to participate in another clump, or they also disappear. The only thing I found about this is the caption of Figure S10, and it seems to indicate that only the infected virus is removed. However, a typical assumption, I think, is that viruses aggregate to improve infection, but then the whole aggregate participates in infection of a single cell, and those viruses in the clump can't participate in other infections. Viral cooperativity with higher inocula in this case would be, perhaps, the result of larger numbers of clumps for higher inocula. This seems in agreement with Figure S8, but was a little unclear in the interpretation provided.

      This is a good point. We did not remove the clump if one of the virions in the clump manages to infect a cell, and indeed, this could be the reason why in some simulations we observe apparent cooperativity when modeling viral clumping. We have explored this in the revision and found that it does not really impact how infection rate scales with the genomes/cell (e.g., see Suppl Fig S8).

      (5) In algorithm 1, how does P_i, as defined, relate to equation 1?

      These are unrelated because eqn.(1) is a phenomenological model that links infection per cell to genomes per cell. P_i in algorithm 1 is “physics-inspired” potential barrier.

      (6) In line 228, and several other places (e.g., caption of Table S2), the authors refer to the probability of a single genome infecting a cell p(1)=exp(-lambda), but shouldn't it be p(1)=1-exp(-lambda) according to equation 1?

      Indeed, it was a typo, p(1)=1-exp(-lambda) per eqn 1. Thank you, it has been corrected in the revised paper.

      (7) In line 304, the accrued damage hypothesis is defined, but it is stated as a triggering of an antiviral response; one would assume that exposure to a virion should increase the resistance to infection. Otherwise, the authors are saying that evolution has come up with intracellular viral resistance mechanisms that are detrimental to the cell. As I mentioned above, this could also be a mechanism for non-independent cell infection. For example, infected cells signal to neighboring cells to "become resistance" to infection. This would also provide a mechanism for saturation at high levels.

      We do not know how exposure of a cell to one virion would change its “antiviral state”, i.e., to become more or less resistant to the next infection. If a cell becomes more resistant, there is no possibility to observe apparent cooperativity in infection of cells, so this hypothesis cannot explain our observations with n>1. Whether this mechanism plays a role in saturation of cell infection rate at lower than 1 value when genome/cell is large is unclear but is a possibility. We added this point to Discussion in revision (see our text above that includes this point).

      (8) In Figure 3, and likely other places, t-tests are used for comparisons, but with only an n=5 (experiments). Many would prefer a non-parametric test.

      We repeated the analyses in Fig 3 with Mann-Whitney test, results were the same, so we would like to keep results from the t-test in the paper.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) The strains of HCMV used have a fluorescent reporter "in place of the US11 gene". Can you provide a brief comment on whether and how this gene deletion affects HCMV replication?

      US11 is a resident ER protein that is considered an "immune evasion factor". It promotes ERAD of MHC I and has no observable effect on replication of HCMV in cultured cells (Berger 2000 JVI, Wiertz 1996 Cell). We now add this information in Materials and methods section of the paper. We write:

      “All BAC clones were modified to express green fluorescent protein (GFP) or the monomeric red fluorescent protein mCherry (mCherry) with En passant recombineering by replacing US11 with the eGFP or mCherry gene, respectively. US11 is a resident ER protein that is considered an “immune evasion factor”. It promotes ERAD of MHC I and has no observable effect on replication of HCMV in cultured cells [27, 28]. Infectious HCMV was recovered by electroporation of BAC-DNA into MRC5 cells which were then co-cultured with either HFFCs (TB and TR) or HFF-tet cells (ME).”

      (2) I didn't understand what the section "Virus titer assays" refers to. When was this used? How or why is this different from the "Virus stock dilution and dose-response assay"? Also in this section, you refer to NHDF cells - can you provide more information about these? And how does a different type of cell affect the titer assay (here measured as infected cells), since this is one of the main points of your paper?

      Apologies for the confusion. In Ryckman lab we routinely generate viral stock and titrate it using a specific cell type, Normal (or neonatal) Human Dermal Fibroblasts (NHDF). This way, the titer of the stock is consistent between experiments by different researchers in the lab. We then use standard 10-fold dilutions to define the number of infectious units per mL of the stock. We now name this subsection as “Quantification of viral stock infectivity using standard 10-fold dilutions”. After the stock was quantified, we then used that stock in our actual experiments with very small dilution factor df that allowed us to detect deviations of the rate of infection from single hit model.

      (3) In many places, "powerlaw" is written. This is usually written as two words, "power law".

      Because powerlaw comes together with “model”, we decided to use “power-law model”.

      (4) Line 75: "have" instead of "has"?

      (5) Line 84: "with" repeated.

      Corrected, thank you.

      (6) Line 116: This section "Cell lines" seems to describe three cell lines, "HFF cells and MRC5 cells" and then "EC" cells.

      HFF cells are fibroblasts used in our main experiments and MRC5 cells are another type of fibroblasts. We used MRC5 cells in the first step of recovering infection HCMV from BAC DNA (electroporation). We clarified this in Materials and methods. We write:

      “Cell lines. Human foreskin fibroblast cells (HFFCs or fibroblasts) and MRC5 cells (also fibroblasts) were cultured in Dulbecco’s modified Eagle’s medium (DMEM, Sigma) supplemented with 5% heat-inactivated fetal bovine serum (FBS, Rocky Mountain Biologicals, Missoula, MT, USA) and 5%Fetalgro® (Rocky Mountain Biologicals, Missoula, MT, USA). We used MRC5 cells in the first step of recovering infection HCMV from BAC DNA (electroporation). For main experiments we used HFFCs as fibroblasts. Human retinal pigment epithelial cells (ECs or ARPE-19, American Type Culture Collection, Manassas, VA, USA) were cultured in a 1:1 mixture of DMEM and Ham’s F-12 medium (DMEM:F-12, Gibco) and supplemented with 10% FBS.”

      (7) Line 188: Because the virus is double-stranded, do you have to divide the qPCR result by 2 to get genomes?

      This is typically accounted for in our calculations of genome/cell.

      (8) Line 200: Typically, one would write "500g" and not "500xg".

      Corrected.

      (9) Line 248: It would be clearer to write "cell type C different from cell type C2".

      Here C and C_2 refer to actual numbers of cell in the titration/growth experiments, so it is comparing numbers, not cell types. We kept the relationship as it is.

      (10) Definition of cell class: what is n in p_n, the total number of cells, or are these divided into n classes of resistance?

      This part was incorrectly copied from an earlier version, both cell resistance and virion infectivity was sampled from normal distributions with different mean and variances (see Table 1). We corrected the text to reflect this.

      (11) Line 272 to 273: Something seems to be missing, as the change of line doesn't make sense.

      Thank you. Edited to improve readability. Now it reads

      “Clumping hypothesis. In the basic model the number of virions a given cell is exposed to follows a Poisson distribution. However, it is well recognized that as virions are produced by infected cells, they may form clumps/aggregates; the number of virions per clump/aggregate may deviate from, for example, the Poisson distribution [33].”

      (12) Line 283: How lambda is chosen is not indicated here, only later (line 424), but at this point, one can confuse it with lambda in equation 1. Is it the same? It also doesn't seem to be indicated in your Table 1.

      The mean of the Poisson distribution in clump simulations lambda is not the same as lambda in eqn 1; we re-named the mean of Poisson distribution as lambda_c which is estimated by fitting a Poisson distribution to clump size distribution estimated from DLS experiments. Because it was dependent on the virus stock dilution, it is not listed in Table 1. However, we did perform additional simulations assuming lambda_c=2 (Suppl Fig S10).

      (13) Equation 6: I understand that you mostly used kappa=0, but in equation 6, would it be positive or negative (if not zero)?

      We probably expect kappa to be negative but we did not fully explore this extension of the model.

      (14) Line 350: Instead of "infection rates" would "infection frequencies" be better?

      We agree. Changed (also changed in the sentence above that line).

      (15) Line 366: I found this sentence a bit awkward.

      We edited it to the best of our ability to improve it.

      “Importantly, for most HCMV strain-target cell combinations we estimated n>1 (Figure 2 and Supplemental Table S2). With n>1 increase in virion concentration (i.e., higher genomes/cell values) results in a higher than linear increase in the probability of a cell to be infected (eqn. (1)) indicating cooperation between virions at infecting cells. We call this phenomenon “apparent cooperativity”.

      (16) Figure 2, panel L: I wonder if it would be better to include the panel with the name of the experiment, but no data. Currently, it takes a while to find what you are talking about in panel L (or at the very least, indicate the panel in the caption).

      Changed

      (17) Figure 2: When you say that experiments were done at least twice, are you referring to the GFP and mCherry versions of the experiment, or replicates within each of those fluorescent labels?

      Replicates with each of those labels.

      (18) Figure 3: What is the number on top of the black bars? I think it is the average of the paired fold change. Is this right? Why, in panel E, is it 1.32 when only one goes up?

      Yes, fold change. Indeed, 1.32 was a typo, it is 0.70, thank you for noting.

      (19) Line 408: delete the word "there".

      Done. Thank you.

      (20) Line 412: Instead of "The", it should be "Then".

      Done. Thank you.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      In their article, Peterson et al. wanted to show to what extent the classical "single hit" model of virion infection, where one virion is required to infect a cell, does not match empirical observations based on human cytomegalovirus in vitro infection model, and how this would have practical impacts in experimental protocols.

      They first used a very simple experimental assay, where they infected cells with serially diluted virions and measured the proportion of infected cells with flow cytometry. From this, they could elegantly show how the proportion of infected cells differed from a "single hit" model, which they simulated using a simple mathematical model ("powerlaw model"), and better fit a model where virions need to cooperate to infect cells. They then explore which mechanism could explain this apparent cooperation:

      (1) Stochasticity alone cannot explain the results, although I am unsure how generalizable the results are, because the mathematical model chosen cannot, by design, explain such observations only by stochasticity.

      Our null model simulations are not just about stochasticity; they also include variability in virion infectivity and cell resistance to infection. We agree that simulations cannot truly prove that such variability cannot result in apparent cooperativity; however, we also provide a mathematical proof that increase in frequency of infected cells should be linear with virion concentration at small genome/cell numbers.

      (2) Virion clumping seemed not to be enough either to generally explain such a pattern. For that, they first use a mathematical model showing that the apparent cooperation would be small. However, I am unsure how extreme the scenario of simulated virion clumping is. They then used dynamic light scattering to measure the distribution of the sizes of clumps. From these estimates, they show that virion clumps cannot reproduce the observed virion cooperation in serial dilution assays. However, the authors remain unprecise on how the uncertainty of these clumps' size distribution would impact the results, as most clumps have a size smaller than a single virion, leaving therefore a limited number of clumps truly containing virions.

      As we stated in the paper, clumping may explain apparent cooperativity in simulations depending on how stock dilution impacts distribution of virions/clump. This could be explored further, however, better experimental measurements of virions/clump would be highly informative (but we do not have resources to do these experiments at present). Our point is that the degree of apparent cooperativity is dependent on the target cell used (n is smaller on epithelial cells than on fibroblasts) that is difficult to explain by clumping which is a virion property. Per comment by reviewer 1, we have done more analyses of the clumping model to investigate importance of clump removal per successful infection on the detected degree of apparent cooperativity. We found that it was not critical to our conclusions (Suppl Fig S8).

      The two models remain unidentifiable from each other but could explain the apparent virion cooperativity: either due to an increase in susceptibility of the cell each time a virion tries to infect it, or due to viral compensation, where lesser fit viruses are able to infect cells in co-infection with a better fit virion. Unfortunately, the authors here do not attempt to fit their mathematical model to the experimental data but only show that theoretical models and experimental data generate similar patterns regarding virion apparent cooperation.

      In the revision we now provide examples of our earlier simulations that “match” experimental data with a relatively high degree of apparent cooperativity (Supp Fig S9).

      Finally, the authors show that this virions cooperation could make the relationship between the estimated multiplicity of infection and viruses/cell deviate from the 1:1 relationship. Consequently, the dilution of a virion stock would lead to an even stronger decrease in infectivity, as more diluted virions can cooperate less for infection.

      Overall, this work is very valuable as it raises the general question of how the estimate of infectivity can be biased if extrapolated from a single virus titer assay. The observation that HCMV virions often cooperate and that this cooperation varies between contexts seems robust. The putative biological explanations would require further exploration.

      This topic is very well known in the case of segmented viruses and the semi-infectious particles, leading to the idea of studying "sociovirology", but to my knowledge, this is the first time that it was explored for a nonsegmented virus, and in the context of MOI estimation.

      Thank you.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Major comments:

      Two aspects of the work would benefit from further thought:

      (1) The simulation of virion clumps: in both cases (Poisson distribution or one-inflated geometric distribution), the proportion of clumps containing more than one virion will be small. For the Poisson distribution, as you fit the powerlaw model on the range of genomes/cell < ~ 3 genomes/cell (Figure 4B). I wonder to what extent this explains the sudden rise in infections/cells you observe above that limit. It would be interesting to plot the (cumulative) distribution of the clump sizes at different dilution levels to have a better idea.

      The reviewer has a good eye, indeed, the relationship between infection frequency and genomes/cell is linear up to a point, and we believe the inflection point reflects the genomes/cell values when clumps contain more than 1 virion. Here is the results of simulations with distribution of virions/clump plotted:

      Similarly, for the one-inflated geometric distribution, the proportion of clumps of size 1 is the sum of two events: f1, plus 1-f1 times the probability that the geometric distribution is zero, if I follow the methods on lines 287-294. I wonder if this is appropriate regarding the estimates made with the DLC. In particular, Figure 5C shows that the proportion of clumps of size 1 is more than ~ half of all the clumps, and does not seem to be the same distribution as the estimates made on Figure S9C. Maybe a hurdle model would be more appropriate?

      This is a fair point. In our analyses we found that modeling clump size distribution is tricky and required various assumptions. The issue with the DLS data is that we do not really know the distribution of intact virions per clump so how to relate the size of the clump to the number of virions in a clump is wide-open; we explored several possibilities and found that the answer (whether clumping results in apparent cooperativity) depends on assumptions of how clumps are modelled (e.g., compare Fig 4B and Suppl. Fig S11). Hurdle model is not appropriate for clumps because by our definition of a clump, it must have at least 1 virion. Our key observation, however, is that the degree of apparent cooperativity depends on the target cell type – and thus should be independent of virion clumping (unless there is viral cooperativity in the clumps). Overall, we decided that exploring more clumping models would take extra effort, but it is unclear if it brings any benefits to our conclusions.

      The analysis of the clump size distribution using dynamic light scattering, in Figure S8. If I interpret correctly, events with size < 230 nm should be excluded as they do not represent clumps of virions but rather media impurities or cell debris. Therefore, I don't understand the choice of fitting the whole set with a combination of two normal distributions, as even the larger normal distribution covers clumps < 230 nm. If the f1 indicated here is the one used in the methods line 287-294, this is then wrong because it does not represent the fraction of clumps of size 1, but rather debris.

      We used two normal (on log-scale) distributions when quantifying clump distribution data (Supp Fig S10) to avoid sub-selection of the data; in this way, two distribution fit the whole dataset with excellent quality. An alternative approach would be to sub-select data with size >=230nm and fit a normal (or similar) distribution of the clumps; such an approach may generate biases and/or unreliable estimates at high dilutions due to small number of clumps with large size (e.g., see Supp Fig S10S-X). In our simulations to model clump distribution and infection (Fig 5) we attempted to simulate the estimated clump size distribution (Suppl Fig S11C) only approximately. Again, because in our measurements we don’t really know the number of virions per clump, efforts to model exactly clump size distribution, we believe, are not going to give full answers.

      (2) Figure 4 and results lines 419-465: Why didn't you try to fit the different models to the data, instead of qualitatively comparing the estimate of n in the simulations with arbitrary parameters to the one for empirical data? Your models match the expectation of virion cooperation by design, so they are not more convincing for a virologist than logical non-quantitative reasoning. They would be of stronger evidence in my opinion if you could show how well they fit the data. You could then directly compare the different models' fits using goodness-of-fit metrics and decide whether one is better than another or if they all explain equally well the observations.

      Well, we have 11 different relationships between infection rate and genome/cell, finding parameter combinations that would match all the data with at least 2 alternative models seems excessive at present but it is a good direction as we get extra funding to continue this work. It is also difficult to extensively search for the parameter values that would result in a perfect fit of the stochastic simulations to data since the methods of fitting agent-based models to data are not fully developed. However, following this suggestion we now show results of simulations for the two alternative models (accrued damage and viral compensation) that we believe do match experimental data somewhat (see new Suppl Fig S9).

      Minor comments:

      (1) Graphical abstract: This requires more context as it is too rough here to help me understand the general idea of the paper. Plus, why does specific infectivity first decrease with genome/cell?

      We added few elements to the graphical abstract including the strain and target cell used. The decrease in specific infectivity at lower genome/cell is due to apparent cooperativity.

      (2) Equation (7): It would be beneficial for the reader if the reasoning behind the likelihood computation were further described.

      This is a relatively standard approach to model/estimate parameters of a binary outcome, e.g., see Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logistic_regression

      (3) Line 352-357: could the drop in infectivity also be enhanced/explained by increased cell mortality? Did you gate on cell viability during FCM?

      The infection rate was measured in live cells only, so increased cell mortality may be an explanation.

      (4) Figure 2: I don't understand the dashed diagonal lines: what do they represent exactly? Especially, wouldn't the single-hit model depend on p(1), in which case it should vary by cell x virus?

      As the caption to Figure 2 clearly states, diagonal dashed lines show the slope =1 (i.e, single hit model), so one would be able compare how far the data and/or model fit line deviate from 1. The note for p(1) in panel A is to illustrate how p(1) is calculated; obviously it varies by the strain-cell combination as is indicated in Suppl. Tab S2).

      (5) Fig3G: Is it not surprising to find a positive relationship between p(1) and n? I would have intuitively expected that the stricter the environment is, the more cooperation you observe. But maybe these viruses did not evolve in this context, and therefore, this relationship is different from what you expect from an evolutionary optimum.

      Well, we simply don’t know. The relationship simply suggests that there is connection between infectivity of a single virion and the degree of apparent cooperativity. We are not certain what is the context in which these viruses have evolved.

      (6) Flow cytometry assay: could it be possible that cells infected by more virions generate more fluorescent proteins and are therefore less likely to be false negatives? Maybe you could compare the fluorescence intensity distribution among infected cells in the context of low MOI vs high MOI?

      This is an interesting point. From presented flow cytometry plots (e.g., Suppl Fig S3), the MFI for infected cells does not seem to depend on the dilution (or genome/cell).

      (7) Figure S9B: I did not understand this figure. Are the axes labels correct? How is it possible to have less than 1 virion/well?

      The y axis shows a scaled number calculated from integrating estimated clump size distribution, we assume 1 “scaled” virion/well at highest virion/cell values. With scaling, yes, it is possible to have less than 1 virion/well.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors dilute fluorescent HCMV stocks in small steps (df ≈ 1.3-1.5) across 23 points, quantify infections by flow cytometry at 3 dpi, and fit a power-law model to estimate a cooperativity parameter n (n > 1 indicates apparent cooperativity). They compare fibroblasts vs epithelial cells and multiple strains/reporters, and explore alternative mechanisms (clumping, accrued damage, viral compensation) via analytical modeling and stochastic simulations. They discuss implications for titer/MOI estimation and suggest a method for detecting "apparent cooperativity," noting that for viruses showing this behavior, MOI estimation may be biased.

      Strengths:

      (1) High-resolution titration & rigor: The small-step dilution design (23 serial dilutions; tailored df) improves dose-response resolution beyond conventional 10× series.

      (2) Clear quantitative signal: Multiple strain-cell pairs show n > 1, with appropriate model fitting and visualization of the linear regime on log-log axes.

      (3) Mechanistic exploration: Side-by-side modeling of clumping vs accrued damage vs compensation frames testable hypotheses for cooperativity.

      Thank you.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Secondary infection control: The authors argue that 3 dpi largely avoids progeny-mediated secondary infection; this claim should be strengthened (e.g., entry inhibitors/control infections) or add sensitivity checks showing results are robust to a small secondary-infection contribution.

      This is an important point. We do believe that the current knowledge about HCMV virion production time – it takes 3-4 days to make virions per multiple papers (see Fig 7 in Vonka and Benyesh-Melnick JB 1966; Fig 3B in Stanton et al JCI 2010; and Fig 1A in Li et al. PNAS 2015) – is sufficient to justify our experimental design but we do agree that an additional control to block novel infections with would be useful. We had previously performed experiments with a HCMV TB-gL-KO that cannot make infectious virions (but the stock virions can be made from complemented target cells). We will investigate if our titration experiments with this virus strain have sufficient resolution to detect apparent cooperativity. However, at present we do not have the resources to perform novel experiments.

      (2) Discriminating mechanisms: At present, simulations cannot distinguish between accrued damage and viral compensation. The authors should propose or add a decisive experiment (e.g., dual-color coinfection to quantify true coinfection rates versus "priming" without coinfection; timed sequential inocula) and outline expected signatures for each mechanism.

      Excellent suggestion. Because infection of a cell is a result of the joint viral infectivity and cell resistance, it may be hard to discriminate between these alternatives unless we specify them as particular molecular mechanisms. But we tried our and listed potential future experiments in the revised version of the paper. Specifically, we write:

      “Second, while we have proposed alternative mechanisms that may result in apparent cooperativity, at present we could not discriminate between these alternatives, in part, because the models lacked specifics – e.g., if virions interacting with a cell reduce its resistance to infection, what does it mean exactly [12]? If virions in a collection augment their infectivity (which may be expected for segmented viruses), how does that viral compensation actually work? Designing experiments that would discriminate between these alternatives would require focusing on a specific mechanism. For example, it may be that that the initiation of gene expression is difficult but is more efficient when there are more virions bringing in more tegument transactivators like pp72/ppUL35 [59]. Alternatively, it may be that there is a bona fide resistance mechanism at play here (e.g. “interferon”) that is antagonized by a viral tegument protein (like TRS1/IRS1 that acts against PKR and 2’5’OAS) [60]. Accrued damage model is also consistent with the idea that at higher genome/cell values, the inoculum itself (including cell and/or virion debris) may impact overall susceptibility of all cells in the well, for example, making them more susceptible to infection. It may be expected, though, that exposing cells to debris would increase cell resistance to infection; this would result in n < 1 that we did not observe at small genomes/cell values. Addressing these hypotheses is an area of future research that will require funding.”

      (3) Decline at high genomes/cell: Several datasets show a downturn at high input. Hypotheses should be provided (cytotoxicity, receptor depletion, and measurement ceiling) and any supportive controls.

      Another good point. We do not have a good explanation, but we do not believe this is because of saturation of available target cells. It seemed to only happen (or was most pronounced) with the ME stocks, which are typically lower in titer and so the higher MOI were nearly undiluted stock. It may be the effect of the conditioned medium. Or perhaps there are non-infectious particles like dense bodies (enveloped particles that lack a capsid and genome) and non-infectious, enveloped particles (NIEPs) that compete for receptors or otherwise damage cells and these don’t get diluted out at the higher doses. We included the point about cell death in Discussion of the revised version of the paper. Specifically, we write:

      “We also do not have a clear explanation of why infection frequency declines at high genomes/cell values for some strain-cell combinations (e.g., Figure 2A, C, D, I, J). Because we measured cell infection in live cells, increase in cell death at higher genomes/cell values may result in the decrease in the number of viable cells.”

      (4) Include experimental data: In Figure 6, please include the experimentally measured titers (IU/mL), if available.

      This is a model-simulated scenario, and as such, there is no measured titers.

      (5) MOI guidance: The practical guidance is important; please add a short "best-practice box" (how to determine titer at multiple genomes/cell and cell densities; when single-hit assumptions fail) for end-users.

      Good suggestion. We now include best-practice box using guidelines developed in Ryckman lab over the years in the revised version of the paper. This is how it reads:

      “Match viral titration methods to the experiment as far as possible. This includes using the same dilution of the viral stock, the cell type, duration of inoculation, and readout of infection.

      When possible, determine the degree of apparent cooperativity (“n”-value, eqn. (1)) for each virus strain/cell type pair being studied.

      If n= 1 (no cooperativity), it is reasonable to calculate experimental MOI based on stock infectivity value determined from a convenient stock dilution.

      If n > 1 or unknown, then stock infectivity should be determined at a dilution resulting in an MOI as close as possible to the desired experimental MOI. Alternatively, the inoculum size can be empirically determined to yield the desired number of infected cells. In these ways different virus/cell type pairs can be compared more fairly.

      Box 1: Recommendations on titrating viral stocks and on performing experiments when comparing different viral strains.”

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      FROM PUBLIC REVIEWS (2) Discriminating mechanisms: At present, simulations cannot distinguish between accrued damage and viral compensation. The authors should propose or add a decisive experiment (e.g., dual-color coinfection to quantify true coinfection rates versus "priming" without coinfection; timed sequential inocula) and outline expected signatures for each mechanism.

      This is a good point but to propose a good experiment we need to narrow down the “generic” mechanism to specific processes/genes. We put forward some ideas but clearly more work is needed here:

      “Second, while we have proposed alternative mechanisms that may result in apparent cooperativity, at present we could not discriminate between these alternatives, in part, because the models lacked specifics – e.g., if virions interacting with a cell reduce its resistance to infection, what does it mean exactly [12]? If virions in a collection augment their infectivity (which may be expected for segmented viruses), how does that viral compensation actually work? Designing experiments that would discriminate between these alternatives would require focusing on a specific mechanism. For example, it may be that that the initiation of gene expression is just difficult but is more efficient when there are more virions bringing in more tegument transactivators like pp72/ppUL35 [59]. Alternatively, it may be that there is a bona fide resistance mechanism at play here (e.g. “interferon”) that is antagonized by a viral tegument protein (like TRS1/IRS1 that acts against PKR and 2’5’OAS) [60]. Accrued damage model is also consistent with the idea that at higher genome/cell, the inoculum itself (including cell and/or virion debris) may impact overall susceptibility of all cells in culture, for example, making them more susceptible to infection. It may be expected, though, that exposing cells to debris would increase cell resistance to infection; this would result in n < 1 that we did not observe at small genomes/cell values. Addressing these hypotheses is an area of future research that will require funding.”

      (1) Methods transparency: Include raw spreadsheets or tables of dilution factors and per-well genome estimates used for Figure 1A; this will help reproducibility of the df = 1.3-1.5 pipeline.

      Provided as supplemental xlsx file.

      (2) Epithelial vs fibroblast contrast: Since n is lower on epithelial cells, expand on cell-intrinsic barriers that could dampen apparent cooperativity, and if this argues against simple clumping.

      Indeed, this is our point that we raised in Discussion. Since ECs show lower n than fibroblasts, this observation argues against clumps. Going forward the contrast between cell types will be an approach to understand mechanism. One difference is entry pathways, the ECs involve endocytosis and endosome acidification whereas the fibroblasts do not. There are clearly different receptors involved also, although they are not clearly characterized. One recent report that might be relevant is Ohman 2024 PNAS that shows the gH/gL/UL128-131 complex (aka, "pentamer") is not just dispensable for entry into fibroblasts, but inhibitory. They suggest that the pentamer might bind to a receptor on fibroblasts that activates a pathways that acts against viral IE expression, It could be that in this situation, more virions are really helpful to overcome that block, whatever it is. We now update this point in Discussion.

      (3) Visualization: In Figure 2, consider showing confidence bands for the fitted slope (n) within the colored fit window and reporting n {plus minus} SE in the panels.

      Because we used custom scripts to fit models to data, showing bands of model predictions was a bit complex and would interfere with data points. But we now show 95% Cis for the estimated value n (that are listed in Suppl. Tab S2).

      (4) Symbols: Define all symbols (e.g., V₀, n) on first use in the main text, not only in Methods.

      Done.

      (5) Plot axes check: Explain non-uniform axis labeling ("genomes/cell," "infections/cell").

      This comment was unclear – which labels were not “uniform”? Genomes/cell indicate the expected number of genomes (or virions) that a cell is on average exposed to, infections/cell indicates the probability that a cell actually gets infected.

      (6) Confidence interval for estimated parameters: Figure 3 A-C, please report estimated parameter intervals.

      These are listed in Suppl. Tab S2. Putting Cis for all estimates would clutter the figure making it hard to tell which CIs are for which estimate. But we put the Cis for estimated parameter n in Figure 2.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This is a valuable study of changes in host genome histone methylation and transcription changes associated with Chlamydia infection. The data presented are solid but further analysis would strengthen the authors overall conclusions.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      This study by Charendoff et al provides interesting observations related to global histone hypermethylation in host cells, during Chlamydia trachomatis infections. The core observation they report is that the host histones are highly hypermethylated during infection, and this appears to be an amplifying effect due to continuous inhibition of demethylases, in part due to a metabolic shift in the host where succinate amounts (which inhibit demethylases) increases. The authors claim specifically due to the bacteria, since antibiotic treatment prevents histone hypermethylation (but leaves you wondering about cause/consequence correlations).

      The core observation of hyper methylation is very interesting, and well documented. There are a number of points to consider though in order to fully substantiate the findings, and close out loose ends. My comments are broad - and built around the interpretations (vs the data presented).

      (1) Related to observations coming Fig 1C etc, and connecting to Fig 3 - the hyper methylation appears to be across different protein arg/lys residues - and is not histone specific. So, is it just a consequence of high SAM pools and flux in infected cells? i.e. the bacterial infection increases SAM pools in cells, and provides an increase in substrate pools for the methyltransferases, leading to protein hyper methylation. The approach used here only measures steady-state SAM amounts (and not SAM flux or utilisation). For example, reduced SAM amounts in nuclei could be due to increased utilisation of SAM. The experiments done with the demethylase does not actually answer this question - if you decrease demethylase activity, you will get an increase in net methylation. The authors see an increase in net methylation in the infected cells - this would suggest that in addition (or perhaps primarily) to reduced demethylase activity, there could be much higher SAM utilisation/flux. Again, the over expression of JMJ proteins does not resolve this problem.

      (2) Adding to this - what happens to SAM pools in the cells treated with the inhibitors? This actually may not look like the slightly reduced SAM pool observed in infected cell nuclei. Also, what is the SAM/SAH ratio (a very useful indicator of methylation activity).

      (3) There is a correlation/implication issue here in Fig 2 - cells with C. trachoma's infection show hyper methylation. But these are the only cells with high C. trachomatis. So it is a bit ingenious to say that histone hyper methylation correlates with bacterial proliferation. The cells without bacteria don't have hyper methylation - and that does not have anything to do with the bacterial proliferation.

      (4) The claim that demethylase activity is down in infected cells again comes primarily from the increased succinate (2-fold) amounts in infected nuclei - and then correlated with experiments where succinate, (permeable) a-KG are supplemented in excess. While I personally like the hypothesis that the hypermethylation might be a result of an imbalance in cofactors (succinate vs a-KG) in infected cells, the data presented is very premature to make that conclusion. Again, steady state measurements of only succinate cannot provide a clear answer to that question. For example, is there a clear allocation/flux difference (between a-KG, and leading out to glutamate/glutamine, vs flux through the TCA and increased succinate accumulation? Is there a bottleneck/build-up of succinate in cells that might lead to the increase in nuclei? This also opens another direction of possible regulation - increased histone succinylation. When you see a large increase in succinate in the nucleus, before looking at demethylase activity - it becomes obvious if succinate itself increases histone succinylation (through HATs).

      (5) What might the authors hypothesise about why this hyper methylation happens? It appears in some ways that hyper methylation happens - potentially due to a metabolic bottleneck that the bacteria triggers (and there is a build-up of SAM and/or succinate, and altered flux out of a-kg). The methylation is just a visible outcome - but may not be central to pathogenesis or viability.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Strengths:

      (1) Because the study compares genuinely infected cells with uninfected cells within the same infected cell population, it enables a clearer and more rigorous comparison.

      (2) By using multiple Chlamydia species and cells from multiple host species (human and mouse), and obtaining consistent findings across these systems, the study demonstrates the generality of bacterium-induced epigenomic alterations.

      (3) The study shows that the epigenomic changes are caused by reduced activity of JMJC domain-containing lysine demethylases, demonstrating through multiple complementary approaches-including the use of a demethylase inhibitor, overexpression of target-specific demethylases, and analysis from the perspective of cofactors required for JMJC domain-containing demethylases-that decreased lysine demethylase activity constitutes the molecular mechanism underlying the increased H3 methylation levels induced by Chlamydia infection.

      (4) By performing ChIP-seq analyses of H3K4me3 and H3K9me3, the study clearly delineates, on a genome-wide scale, how infection leads to increased levels of these epigenomic marks.

      Weakness:

      (1) Reduction of cofactors such as Fe2+ or a-KG decreases the activity of JMJC-domain-containing lysine demethylases (thereby directly affecting histone H3 lysine methylation). However, these cofactors are also involved in the activities of other epigenetic regulators, such as TET enzymes that contribute to DNA demethylation and SIRT family proteins that mediate histone deacetylation. Therefore, it cannot be excluded that modulation of these factors indirectly leads to the changes in H3 lysine methylation dynamics targeted in this study.

      (2) Related to point 1, although overexpression of JMJC-type demethylases has been shown to reduce the Chlamydia infection-induced increase in H3 lysine methylation, it is well known that over production of these enzymes, while target-specific, also leads to a genome-wide reduction of lysine methylation. Thus, a decrease in lysine methylation upon expression of these demethylases does not necessarily demonstrate that the infection-induced increase in H3 lysine methylation is caused by impaired JMJC-type demethylase activity.

    4. Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      In this manuscript, the authors explore a molecular basis for hypermethylation of histones in epithelial cells infected with the obligate intracellular bacterial pathogen Chlamydia trachomatis. This is of particular interest given that Chlamydia is known to drastically alter host cell gene transcription, and histone hypermethylation would suggest a new way by which Chlamydia interferes with gene expression of its host. Histone methylation was previously implicated in the introduction of dsDNA breaks in infected cells, and the chlamydial effector NUE was reported to methylate histones, but the role of this modification in dictating host cell gene transcription has been unexplored. The authors use a suite of tools to approach this question, including various -omics techniques, genetic approaches, and biochemical assays. Overall, the manuscript provides many interesting pieces of data, though some of them are difficult to reconcile, which may reflect methodological hurdles that are not fully addressed in the current version of the manuscript. My major concerns regard the rationale/interpretation for various mechanistic experiments and that the heterogeneity of the histone hypermethylation phenotype is not addressed which I believe may explain some apparent inconsistencies in the results.

      Using an immunofluorescent approach, the authors show that a subpopulation of the nuclei in Chlamydia-infected cells (~10-20%) exhibit high amounts of methylated histone species. This occurs during the late stages of infection, near the time when Chlamydia would lyse the host cell and positively correlates with bacterial burden. Accordingly, halting chlamydial growth blocks the onset of histone hypermethylation. Exogenously supplying cofactors for histone demethylases, the low activity of which is implicated in the histone hypermethylation phenotype, reduces histone hypermethylation. In general, these data are compelling and raise interesting questions about the role of histone methylation in governing chlamydial egress from infected cells. Interestingly, these behaviors seem to arise independently of NUE, the secreted chlamydial histone methyltransferase, supporting the notion that a metabolic reprogramming may underlie the hypermethylation phenomenon.

      As noted above, the authors propose that hypermethylation arises due to decreased demethylase activity in infected cells. However, the data do not conclusively support this interpretation. For example, the approaches used to probe demethylase activity rely on (i) a direct biochemical measure of demethylase activity, (ii), pharmacological inhibition of demethylase, and (iii) heterologous expression of a specific demethylase. With the exception of (i), these approaches would be expected to alter histone methylation regardless of the source. That is, inhibition of demethylases should increase histone methylation regardless of whether the source of methylation is increased methylase or decreased demethylase activity. Similarly, overexpression of a demethylase would be expected to reduce cognate histone methylation arising either from increased methylase or decreased demethylase activity.

      Moreover, the authors report that the effect of the demethylase inhibitor on histone hypermethylation is significantly potentiated by infection, suggesting that infected cells have greater methylase activity than uninfected cells, because the latter barely respond to the presence of demethylase inhibitor. In other words, a dramatic increase in histone methylation in the presence of demethylase inhibitor is most parsimoniously explained by increased methylation (no longer being removed by demethylase), not decreased demethylation (which would be analogous to treatment with demethylase inhibitor). The authors do not directly assay methylase activity. These concerns extend to the rationale used to justify experiments with infected mice, which the authors treat with the demethylase inhibitor.

      The authors perform experiments to characterize the consequence of hypermethylation genome-wide. Because the authors do not enrich for those cells which exhibit histone hypermethylation, the results reflect the mixed population, and therefore presumably dilute out important signal related to the phenomena under investigation. For example, the proteomic analysis of post-translational modifications identifies only one methylated histone species, whereas the immunofluorescent approach shows consistent effects across five different methylated histone species. Moreover, the chromatin immunoprecipitation analysis indicates that there is unexpectedly a lower density of methylated histones at regions which are also enriched in uninfected cells. The authors argue that this suggests increased methylation is happening "outside" of these histone-dense regions, but direct evidence in support of this claim is lacking.

      In sum, this paper provides compelling evidence in support of the notion that histones are hypermethylated at various residues late in chlamydial infection, that this process is modulated by known cofactors of demethylases, and is the result of high levels of bacterial replication in the cell. That histone hypermethylation governs host gene transcription during chlamydial infection suggests a relatively novel mechanism by which Chlamydia subverts the host cell to establish a replicative niche or egress to infect a new cell. The information obtained regarding the methylation status of host proteins and host gene transcription controlled by a metabolic cofactor during infection will be a useful resource for other researchers. However, in the current version of the manuscript, the mechanistic basis for these behaviors is relatively unclear.

    5. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      This study by Charendoff et al provides interesting observations related to global histone hypermethylation in host cells, during Chlamydia trachomatis infections. The core observation they report is that the host histones are highly hypermethylated during infection, and this appears to be an amplifying effect due to continuous inhibition of demethylases, in part due to a metabolic shift in the host where succinate amounts (which inhibit demethylases) increases. The authors claim specifically due to the bacteria, since antibiotic treatment prevents histone hypermethylation (but leaves you wondering about cause/consequence correlations).

      The core observation of hyper methylation is very interesting, and well documented. There are a number of points to consider though in order to fully substantiate the findings, and close out loose ends. My comments are broad - and built around the interpretations (vs the data presented).

      (1) Related to observations coming Fig 1C etc, and connecting to Fig 3 - the hyper methylation appears to be across different protein arg/lys residues - and is not histone specific. So, is it just a consequence of high SAM pools and flux in infected cells? i.e. the bacterial infection increases SAM pools in cells, and provides an increase in substrate pools for the methyltransferases, leading to protein hyper methylation. The approach used here only measures steady-state SAM amounts (and not SAM flux or utilisation).

      For example, reduced SAM amounts in nuclei could be due to increased utilisation of SAM. The experiments done with the demethylase does not actually answer this question - if you decrease demethylase activity, you will get an increase in net methylation. The authors see an increase in net methylation in the infected cells - this would suggest that in addition (or perhaps primarily) to reduced demethylase activity, there could be much higher SAM utilisation/flux. Again, the over expression of JMJ proteins does not resolve this problem.

      This is an important point. Indeed, one limitation of the initial version of the paper was that we had measured SAM concentration only at one time point (40 hpi) and on the whole population. During revision we used a ratiometric sensor to measure SAM concentration in cells (PMID 34937909). We observed cell-to-cell heterogeneity in SAM levels in HeLa cells, as previously reported in other cell lines. Chlamydia inclusions develop asynchronously, which allows to observe, 40 hpi, a continuum of early (low bacterial load) to late (high bacterial load) stages of infection. We observed no correlation between bacterial load and SAM level, and SAM levels were globally similar when comparing infected and non-infected cells. This experiment strongly supports the hypothesis that protein hypermethylation is not due to an increase in SAM during infection. The data were added in the New Fig. 3. Note that the former Fig. 3 is now split into New Fig. 3 and New Fig. 4.

      (2) Adding to this - what happens to SAM pools in the cells treated with the inhibitors? This actually may not look like the slightly reduced SAM pool observed in infected cell nuclei. Also, what is the SAM/SAH ratio (a very useful indicator of methylation activity).

      Based on the high cell-to-cell heterogeneity of SAM levels observed with the ratiometric probe, we reasoned that measuring SAM/SAH ratio without single cell resolution would not bring crucial information. Also, the discrepancy between data displayed in new Fig. 3A (nuclear extracts) and 3C (live cell imaging) indicate that SAM might be less stable in cellular extracts from infected cells compared to non-infected ones, which would complicate the interpretation of the data. Therefore, we did not implement LC-MS/MS on nuclear extracts to measure SAM/SAH ratio.  

      (3) There is a correlation/implication issue here in Fig 2 - cells with C. trachoma's infection show hyper methylation. But these are the only cells with high C. trachomatis. So it is a bit ingenious to say that histone hyper methylation correlates with bacterial proliferation. The cells without bacteria don't have hyper methylation - and that does not have anything to do with the bacterial proliferation.

      In Fig. 2B, we compared the methylation signal within the population of infected cells only (excluding the uninfected cells). We edited the text to clarify this point. “We observed that, within the population of infected cells, the sum intensity of the mCherry signal was higher in cells that displayed hypermethylation of H3K9me3 than in cells with low level of H3K9me3, indicating that histone hypermethylation correlated with bacterial load (Fig. 2B).”

      (4) The claim that demethylase activity is down in infected cells again comes primarily from the increased succinate (2-fold) amounts in infected nuclei - and then correlated with experiments where succinate, (permeable) a-KG are supplemented in excess. While I personally like the hypothesis that the hypermethylation might be a result of an imbalance in cofactors (succinate vs a-KG) in infected cells, the data presented is very premature to make that conclusion. Again, steady state measurements of only succinate cannot provide a clear answer to that question. For example, is there a clear allocation/flux difference (between a-KG, and leading out to glutamate/glutamine, vs flux through the TCA and increased succinate accumulation? Is there a bottleneck/build-up of succinate in cells that might lead to the increase in nuclei? This also opens another direction of possible regulation - increased histone succinylation. When you see a large increase in succinate in the nucleus, before looking at demethylase activity - it becomes obvious if succinate itself increases histone succinylation (through HATs).

      Our work confirms the accumulation of succinate in cells infected by C. trachomatis, previously reported in Rother et al 2018. The reason for this accumulation remains to be investigated in detail. We have previously shown that OxPhos is relatively stable in infected cells (PMID 35931114), indicating that the flux through the TCA of the eukaryotic host proceeds normally. As mentioned in our discussion, the TCA of the bacteria is disrupted with several enzymes missing, although not in the step immediately downstream of succinate/fumarate production. Still, synthesis of succinate and fumarate (fumarate accumulation was observed in the Rother 2018 study) by bacterial enzymes might contribute to their accumulation in infected cells. The approach we chose to measure methylation at the proteome level is not suitable to look for histone succinylation, because of the diversity of post translational modifications on histones, which occur in combinations. However, following on this reviewer’s comment, we reanalysed the proteomic data to compare protein succinylation levels in infected and non-infected samples. We detected 41 succinylated peptides in the infected samples, against 23 in the uninfected samples. For many of these, we did not have quantitative data in all condition and only one protein, transportin 1 (TNPO1), reached statistical significance, with a 4-fold increase in succinylation in infected samples. Thus, while essentially qualitative, this analysis fully supports the hypothesis that succinate accumulates in infected cells. These data were added to Table S1 and to the result section.

      (5) What might the authors hypothesise about why this hyper methylation happens? It appears in some ways that hyper methylation happens - potentially due to a metabolic bottleneck that the bacteria triggers (and there is a build-up of SAM and/or succinate, and altered flux out of a-kg). The methylation is just a visible outcome - but may not be central to pathogenesis or viability.

      We discussed this question in the penultimate paragraph of the discussion by giving some elements of answer to the question: “Does it benefit the host or the bacteria? ». In our study, we showed that protein hypermethylation affected the transcriptional response of the host. We did not investigate whether the activity of some of the host proteins engaged in the response to infection were affected. It might be the case, considering that methylation is a common PTM regulating protein’s activity. Still, we agree with this reviewer that hypermethylation might not be central to pathogenesis or viability. Addressing this question would require a complex model in which protein methylation levels could be controlled experimentally.  

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Strengths:

      (1) Because the study compares genuinely infected cells with uninfected cells within the same infected cell population, it enables a clearer and more rigorous comparison.

      (2) By using multiple Chlamydia species and cells from multiple host species (human and mouse), and obtaining consistent findings across these systems, the study demonstrates the generality of bacterium-induced epigenomic alterations.

      (3) The study shows that the epigenomic changes are caused by reduced activity of JMJC domain-containing lysine demethylases, demonstrating through multiple complementary approaches-including the use of a demethylase inhibitor, overexpression of target-specific demethylases, and analysis from the perspective of cofactors required for JMJC domain-containing demethylases-that decreased lysine demethylase activity constitutes the molecular mechanism underlying the increased H3 methylation levels induced by Chlamydia infection.

      (4) By performing ChIP-seq analyses of H3K4me3 and H3K9me3, the study clearly delineates, on a genome-wide scale, how infection leads to increased levels of these epigenomic marks.

      Weakness:

      (1) Reduction of cofactors such as Fe2+ or a-KG decreases the activity of JMJC-domaincontaining lysine demethylases (thereby directly affecting histone H3 lysine methylation). However, these cofactors are also involved in the activities of other epigenetic regulators, such as TET enzymes that contribute to DNA demethylation and SIRT family proteins that mediate histone deacetylation. Therefore, it cannot be excluded that modulation of these factors indirectly leads to the changes in H3 lysine methylation dynamics targeted in this study.

      Indeed, reduction of the concentration of Fe2+ and aKG is expected to have other consequences in addition to the inhibition of JMJC-domain containing lysine demethylases on which we focus in this study. As a matter of fact, we reported a decrease in the methylation level of host DNA in infected cells, and we brought some elements that might explain the discrepancy between DNA and histone methylation status in the discussion (e.g., infected cells display enhanced expression of GADD45, which recruit TET enzymes and thus facilitate DNA demethylation). This example illustrates the complexity of host/pathogen interplay, which affect many parameters simultaneously. Indeed, we cannot rule out that modulation of enzymatic activities other than JMJC-domain containing lysine demethylase contribute significantly to the hypermethylation phenotype.

      (2) Related to point 1, although overexpression of JMJC-type demethylases has been shown to reduce the Chlamydia infection-induced increase in H3 lysine methylation, it is well known that over production of these enzymes, while target-specific, also leads to a genome-wide reduction of lysine methylation. Thus, a decrease in lysine methylation upon expression of these demethylases does not necessarily demonstrate that the infection-induced increase in H3 lysine methylation is caused by impaired JMJC-type demethylase activity.

      We fully agree. We included this experiment to show that increasing the expression of one demethylase only restored demethylation of its cognate target. This support the hypothesis that if the hypermethylation is due to poor demethylase activity, it is likely that several demethylases show impaired activity (as opposed to a scenario in which failure of activity of a single demethylase would indirectly affect all other methylation marks).  

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      In this manuscript, the authors explore a molecular basis for hypermethylation of histones in epithelial cells infected with the obligate intracellular bacterial pathogen Chlamydia trachomatis. This is of particular interest given that Chlamydia is known to drastically alter host cell gene transcription, and histone hypermethylation would suggest a new way by which Chlamydia interferes with gene expression of its host. Histone methylation was previously implicated in the introduction of dsDNA breaks in infected cells, and the chlamydial effector NUE was reported to methylate histones, but the role of this modification in dictating host cell gene transcription has been unexplored. The authors use a suite of tools to approach this question, including various -omics techniques, genetic approaches, and biochemical assays. Overall, the manuscript provides many interesting pieces of data, though some of them are difficult to reconcile, which may reflect methodological hurdles that are not fully addressed in the current version of the manuscript. My major concerns regard the rationale/interpretation for various mechanistic experiments and that the heterogeneity of the histone hypermethylation phenotype is not addressed which I believe may explain some apparent inconsistencies in the results.

      We thank this reviewer for insightful comments. We address these two major concerns during revision and bring some elements in our responses below.

      Using an immunofluorescent approach, the authors show that a subpopulation of the nuclei in Chlamydia-infected cells (~10-20%) exhibit high amounts of methylated histone species. This occurs during the late stages of infection, near the time when Chlamydia would lyse the host cell and positively correlates with bacterial burden.

      Accordingly, halting chlamydial growth blocks the onset of histone hypermethylation. Exogenously supplying cofactors for histone demethylases, the low activity of which is implicated in the histone hypermethylation phenotype, reduces histone hypermethylation. In general, these data are compelling and raise interesting questions about the role of histone methylation in governing chlamydial egress from infected cells. Interestingly, these behaviors seem to arise independently of NUE, the secreted chlamydial histone methyltransferase, supporting the notion that a metabolic reprogramming may underlie the hypermethylation phenomenon.

      As noted above, the authors propose that hypermethylation arises due to decreased demethylase activity in infected cells. However, the data do not conclusively support this interpretation. For example, the approaches used to probe demethylase activity rely on (i) a direct biochemical measure of demethylase activity, (ii), pharmacological inhibition of demethylase, and (iii) heterologous expression of a specific demethylase. With the exception of (i), these approaches would be expected to alter histone methylation regardless of the source. That is, inhibition of demethylases should increase histone methylation regardless of whether the source of methylation is increased methylase or decreased demethylase activity. Similarly, overexpression of a demethylase would be expected to reduce cognate histone methylation arising either from increased methylase or decreased demethylase activity.

      We agree with the reviewer’s comments. The experiment using pharmacological inhibitors (ii) show that infected cells are sensitized to these inhibitors but doesn’t provide direct mechanistic insight. The experiment using heterologous expression of demethylases (iii) was included to show that increasing the expression of one demethylase only restored demethylation of its cognate target. This supports the hypothesis that several demethylases show impaired activity (as opposed to a scenario in which failure of activity of a single demethylase would indirectly affect all other methylation marks).  

      The most direct evidence for impaired demethylase activity come from the direct measure of demethylation of H3K4me3 in nuclear extract (i). It is strengthened by indirect evidence that metabolite concentrations hinder demethylase activities late in infection: 1/ iron and DMKG supply diminish hypermethylation of histone lysine residues 2/ succinate levels (a competitor of aKG) are two-fold higher in nuclei isolated from infected cells. This latter finding was confirmed during revision as we identified more succinylated proteins in infected samples compared to non-infected ones.

      We also considered the possibility that infected cells displayed increased histone methyl transferase (HMT) activity. This would be compatible with decrease KDM activity and could contribute to the histone hypermethylation. Unfortunately, this hypothesis cannot be tested directly (as we did for the measure of H3K4me3 demethylation activity). Indeed, SAM is notoriously labile and in vitro assays to measure HMT require to add exogenous SAM to cell extracts to detect any HMT activity, which would not allow us to test activity based on endogenous SAM levels.

      Instead, we used a ratiometric sensor to measure SAM concentration in cells (PMID 34937909). Chlamydia inclusions develop asynchronously, which allows to observe, 40 hpi, a continuum of early (low bacterial load) to late (high bacterial load) stages of infection. There was no correlation between bacterial load and SAM level, and this level was globally similar when comparing infected and non-infected cells. This experiment supports our hypothesis that protein hypermethylation is not due to an increase in SAM during infection.

      This experiment was also very interesting because it revealed a high cell-to-cell heterogeneity in SAM levels in HeLa cells. Thus, in some cells, SAM might be limiting, which could explain why only a fraction of cells display histone hypermethylation.

      Still, we cannot fully rule out the possibility that increase in SAM availability late in the infectious cycle in some cells, and is immediately consumed through protein methylation, resulting in no net [SAM] increase. The discussion was expanded to take these comments into consideration.

      Altogether, we think that the evidence of decrease KDM activities in infected cells late in infection are strong. Our data do not rule out the possibility that additional mechanisms may contribute.

      Moreover, the authors report that the effect of the demethylase inhibitor on histone hypermethylation is significantly potentiated by infection, suggesting that infected cells have greater methylase activity than uninfected cells, because the latter barely respond to the presence of demethylase inhibitor. In other words, a dramatic increase in histone methylation in the presence of demethylase inhibitor is most parsimoniously explained by increased methylation (no longer being removed by demethylase), not decreased demethylation (which would be analogous to treatment with demethylase inhibitor). The authors do not directly assay methylase activity. These concerns extend to the rationale used to justify experiments with infected mice, which the authors treat with the demethylase inhibitor.

      The observation that the same concentration of JIB-04 leads to an increase of histone methylation in infected cells and not in non-infected cells, is coherent with the data showing that aKG or iron supply diminish histone hypermethylation in infected cells. Indeed, the inhibitor is taken up similarly by infected and uninfected cells but the potency of the inhibitor will depend partly on levels of iron, aKG and succinate found in the cellular milieu so same concentration of inhibitor may inhibit demethylase activity in cells with higher succinate and/or low aKG and low iron but fail to inhibit demethylase activity in cells with higher iron or aKG or lower succinate. In other words, high iron, high aKG or low succinate will “buffer” JIB-04 and make it less potent since JIB-04 partly acts by competing with the iron (competitively) and the aKG (mixed competitive inhibition) PMID 23792809. The same phenomenon is expected for SD70 and TACH101 that share aspects of the mode of action of JIB-04 regarding partly competing for aKG and/or iron in the catalytic site.

      The authors perform experiments to characterize the consequence of hypermethylation genome-wide. Because the authors do not enrich for those cells which exhibit histone hypermethylation, the results reflect the mixed population, and therefore presumably dilute out important signal related to the phenomena under investigation. For example, the proteomic analysis of post-translational modifications identifies only one methylated histone species, whereas the immunofluorescent approach shows consistent effects across five different methylated histone species. Moreover, the chromatin immunoprecipitation analysis indicates that there is unexpectedly a lower density of methylated histones at regions which are also enriched in uninfected cells. The authors argue that this suggests increased methylation is happening "outside" of these histone-dense regions, but direct evidence in support of this claim is lacking.

      The caveat of bulk analyses as opposed to single cell resolution is indeed important to consider when analysing the chIP-seq data and we emphasized this point in the revised manuscript. We could have sorted the cells with high bacterial burden; this would probably have given stronger differences between the two samples. Still, the change in distribution of H3K4me3 in infected samples was very clear and statistically significant. A change in H3K9me3 distribution would be more difficult to catch, as the mark is more widespread.

      In sum, this paper provides compelling evidence in support of the notion that histones are hypermethylated at various residues late in chlamydial infection, that this process is modulated by known cofactors of demethylases, and is the result of high levels of bacterial replication in the cell. That histone hypermethylation governs host gene transcription during chlamydial infection suggests a relatively novel mechanism by which Chlamydia subverts the host cell to establish a replicative niche or egress to infect a new cell. The information obtained regarding the methylation status of host proteins and host gene transcription controlled by a metabolic cofactor during infection will be a useful resource for other researchers. However, in the current version of the manuscript, the mechanistic basis for these behaviors is relatively unclear.

      We thank this reviewer for constructive feedback. We believe that the mechanistic conclusions of our report have been strengthened during revision with additional experiments and text clarification.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This valuable study advances our understanding of confidence in reinforcement learning by considering value confidence and decision confidence within a common Bayesian computational framework. The evidence is solid, supported by converging analyses across multiple datasets, though the direct interaction between the two forms of confidence and the model identifiability requires further clarification. The work will be of primary interest to researchers in reinforcement learning, decision-making, and metacognition.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study addresses an important question in reinforcement learning and metacognition by distinguishing value confidence from decision confidence and testing how each is computationally represented. The findings are significant because they suggest that value confidence is well captured by Bayesian uncertainty, whereas decision confidence reflects a hybrid computation combining probability correct with broader value certainty. The evidence is promising, supported by multiple datasets and model comparisons.

      Strength.

      (1) A major strength of the study is that the authors test their hypotheses across multiple datasets, including previously published datasets and newly collected data. This broad empirical approach increases the generality of the findings.

      (2) The Bayesian model of value confidence has a clear theoretical basis. The proposed hybrid model of decision confidence is also intuitive. It appears to capture important aspects of the decision confidence data.

      (3) The paper provides a useful framework for linking how certainty about value estimates guides the subsequent choice and the corresponding decision confidence.

      Weakness

      (1) The conceptual link between value confidence and decision confidence is not yet fully established. The manuscript argues that overall value certainty contributes to decision confidence, but this conclusion is based largely on the latent variable that the model infers from the decision confidence experiment alone. A more direct test would require measuring value confidence and decision confidence within the same participants and task, and analysing how these two types of confidence interact.

      (2) The individual-difference analyses in Figure 5 are methodologically challenging. The predictors used in these analyses are derived from model fits to the behavioural data and are then correlated to behaviour in the same task. This creates a risk that correlations inevitably arise. Thus, it does not assure that correlations are cognitively meaningful.

      (3) The model recovery results suggest that some candidate models are not clearly distinguishable.

      (4) The manuscript would benefit from clearer explanations of why specific models capture particular behavioural patterns.

      (5) The claim that value confidence modulates the exploration-exploitation trade-off should be interpreted carefully, because the model uses global uncertainty across both options, not option-specific value confidence.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this work, the authors propose a common value-estimation framework based on Bayesian inference and show that it can account for both participants' confidence in their value estimates ("value confidence") and for their confidence in their final choices ("decision confidence").

      Strengths:

      The study extends several established findings in the confidence and reinforcement-learning literature. In particular, the authors not only examine decision confidence but also directly model value confidence, and they replicate the idea that decision confidence reflects a combination of multiple computations, previously described for categorical decisions (Navajas et al., 2017), in the context of continuous value-based decisions. I therefore consider the work a useful contribution to the field.

      Weaknesses:

      However, I believe that the scope of the conclusions is overstated relative to the results that are actually presented.

      (1) Interaction between value confidence and decision confidence

      The abstract and introduction frame the study as addressing a major gap in the literature, namely, the lack of direct investigation of the interaction between value confidence and decision confidence. Yet the manuscript never directly tests the interaction between these two quantities. Instead, the authors show that the reported decision confidence depends not only on the probability of being correct, but also on the precision of the decision variable DV, which is related to the precision of the value estimates underlying value confidence. While this is related to the proposed research question, it is not a direct analysis of the interaction between value confidence and decision confidence themselves.

      (2) Unified computational framework

      Similarly, the claim that the study provides a "unified computational framework" appears somewhat overstated. The proposed models build on standard and well-established Bayesian frameworks and extend them specifically to account for decision confidence. While this demonstrates that both forms of confidence can be expressed within a common Bayesian formalism, the manuscript does not establish a direct computational interaction or shared mechanism between them beyond their dependence on the same underlying uncertainty estimates.

      (3) "Phenotypes" interpretation

      The interpretation of the observed individual differences as distinct "behavioural phenotypes" also appears overstated. The reported analyses primarily show continuous variability across participants in the relative weighting of different components contributing to confidence reports, rather than evidence for qualitatively distinct categories or computational subtypes of decision-makers.

      (4) Decision confidence terminology

      I also found some conceptual ambiguity in the terminology used throughout the manuscript. Early in the paper, decision confidence is defined normatively as the subjective probability of having made the correct choice, corresponding to P(DV>0). Later, however, the authors show that participants' confidence reports are better explained by a combination of this probability and the precision of the decision-variable distribution. Despite this distinction, the manuscript continues referring to the reported quantity simply as "decision confidence." Clarifying the distinction between the theoretical construct and the empirical reports (for example, by referring to "reported decision confidence") would improve conceptual clarity.

    4. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Comay, Solovey, and Barttfeld aim to provide a unified computational account of confidence in reinforcement learning by distinguishing value confidence-the certainty associated with latent value estimates-from decision confidence-the confidence that a particular choice is correct. Across new experiments and reanalyses of previously published datasets, they argue that value confidence is best described by Bayesian posterior precision, that this form of confidence adaptively reduces decision noise as learning progresses, and that decision confidence is better captured by a hybrid model combining Bayesian probability correct with a more global estimate of value certainty. They further propose that individual differences in the relative weighting of these components define "confidence phenotypes" that predict task performance, exploration-exploitation behavior, and metacognitive accuracy.

      Strengths:

      A major strength of the study is that it addresses an important conceptual distinction that is often blurred in the confidence literature. The paper usefully separates uncertainty about latent environmental states from confidence in an action derived from those latent beliefs. This distinction is especially important in reinforcement learning, where uncertainty is not merely a retrospective judgment about accuracy but can directly shape future sampling, learning, and action selection. The manuscript is therefore well positioned to bridge work on Bayesian confidence in perceptual decision-making with work on uncertainty-guided learning and exploration.

      A second strength is the authors' use of multiple datasets and model comparisons. The claim that value confidence tracks Bayesian uncertainty is supported across tasks in which participants explicitly report confidence in value estimates, including datasets where reward variance is manipulated. The latter manipulation is particularly useful because it helps distinguish a Bayesian uncertainty account from simpler models based only on the number of observations. The finding that value confidence modulates the softmax slope and thereby promotes more exploitative choices as uncertainty decreases is also theoretically coherent and supported across several datasets, including a preregistered replication.

      The manuscript's most interesting and potentially impactful contribution is the hybrid model of decision confidence. The authors show that a model based only on Bayesian probability correct captures confidence on correct trials better than on incorrect trials, whereas adding an "overall value confidence" term improves the fit. This is a useful result because it suggests that confidence reports in reinforcement learning may not be a pure readout of decision-level discriminability, but instead may combine decision-specific evidence with more global latent-state uncertainty. This could help explain why human confidence often deviates from ideal Bayesian predictions, especially on error trials.

      Weaknesses:

      However, the interpretation of the hybrid model remains the main weakness of the paper. The second term, overall value confidence, is not equivalent to the precision of the decision variable. It can dissociate from decision difficulty: two options can be far apart but individually uncertain, or nearly identical but individually well estimated. The authors appear to recognize this issue and have reframed the term as "overall value confidence" rather than decision-variable precision. This is a useful clarification, but the conceptual role of the term still requires sharper treatment. In its current form, it is sometimes described as part of a unified confidence computation, but it may be more accurately understood as a biasing or contextual signal that modulates reported confidence without necessarily improving decision calibration.

      A related concern is model identifiability. In many reinforcement-learning tasks, probability correct and overall value confidence both change systematically over the course of learning. As a result, the hybrid model may gain predictive power partly because it captures generic time-on-task or learning-progress effects, rather than because participants explicitly combine two separable uncertainty signals. The manuscript would be stronger if it more clearly demonstrated that the two latent variables are distinguishable in the behavioral data, for example, through model recovery, parameter recovery, cross-validated prediction, and analyses of the correlation between latent regressors across task conditions and individuals.

      The link between the decision rule and confidence model also deserves more scrutiny. The authors use value confidence to modulate decision noise in the choice model, and then use a related global value-confidence term in the confidence-report model. This creates an appealing unified architecture, but it also raises the possibility that the same latent variable is doing multiple kinds of explanatory work. The paper would benefit from a clearer separation between uncertainty as a driver of choices, uncertainty as a determinant of confidence reports, and uncertainty as an inferred latent variable extracted from the same behavioral data.

      From a computational neuroscience perspective, the manuscript would also benefit from a more explicit discussion of how these confidence quantities might be represented neurally. The current model treats value confidence, probability correct, and overall value confidence as scalar latent variables available to the observer. Yet uncertainty-related computations may be represented nonlinearly in neural population activity rather than as explicit scalar readouts. Work on nonlinear neural decoding and population codes has shown that task-relevant variables can be carried by nonlinear statistics of neural activity, especially when nuisance variables obscure mean tuning, and that behavioral choices can reveal whether such nonlinear information is efficiently decoded. This literature provides a useful framework for connecting the present behavioral model to possible neural implementations of value and decision confidence.

      Overall, the authors largely achieve their goal of demonstrating that value confidence and decision confidence are computationally dissociable in reinforcement learning. The evidence for Bayesian value confidence is strong, and the evidence that confidence-guided exploitation improves the account of choice behavior is convincing. The evidence for the hybrid account of decision confidence is promising but would be strengthened by additional analyses clarifying model identifiability, the interpretation of the overall value-confidence term, and the conditions under which the model makes distinct predictions from simpler time-, value-, or evidence-based alternatives. The paper is likely to be useful for researchers interested in computational models of confidence, metacognition, and adaptive behavior under uncertainty.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This important study identifies a non-canonical essential role for acyl carrier protein in maintaining apicoplast metabolism and blood-stage survival in Plasmodium falciparum. The main conclusions are largely supported by strong genetic and biochemical evidence, although some claims regarding the dispensability of fatty acid synthesis pathways remain incomplete. The work provides novel mechanistic insight into ACP-mediated stabilization of pyruvate kinase II and will be of broad interest to the malaria and apicoplast biology communities.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      This study provides evidence that the apicoplast-locaized isoform of acyl-carrier protein (ACP) has acquired important non-enzymatic functions in the malaria parasite. Previous studies have shown that the apicoplast-located FASII-dependent pathway of fatty acid synthesis is not essential in Plasmodium blood stages. In contrast, genome-wide knockout studies suggested that ACP, a key protein in this pathway, is essential in these stages, indicating that it may have additional non-canonical functions. In this study, the authors confirm that ACP is essential in Pf blood stages (using both apicoplast IPP rescue and conditional knockdown); show that this essential function requires modification with 4-phosphopantetheine and use proximity biotinylation and complementary immunoprecipitation pull-down approaches to provide compelling evidence that ACP binds to and stabilizes the apicoplast-located isoform of pyruvate kinase II. Notably, these interactions appear to differ from those associated with the binding of mitochondrial isoforms of ACP to proteins involved in Fe-S biosynthesis. Loss of ACP was shown to lead to a decrease in PKII levels and apicoplast DNA/RNA synthesis, consistent with loss of NTP synthesis in this organelle. The data are clear and very well described, and the findings represent a significant advance in our understanding of metabolic regulatory mechanisms in apicomplexan apicoplast studies.

      Strengths:

      The study uses a variety of complementary genetic approaches to demonstrate the essentiality of ACP and the enzyme involved in its activation with 4-PP in Pf blood stages, demonstrating that the ascribed non-enzymatic function is mediated by holo-ACP. Similarly, a number of complementary biochemical approaches, including proximity biotinylation, immunoprecipitation, and co-expression of PfACP and PK-II in a heterologous bacterial expression system, are used to confirm the physiological significance of the PfACP and PK-II interaction. The study also reports additional findings, such as the independence of P. faciparum blood stages on exogenous (media) fatty acids, indicating that intracellular stages can salvage all of their requirements from the red blood cell.

      Weaknesses:

      Overall, this is a very strong study. While questions remain around the function of other apicoplast ACP-interacting proteins detected in this study, I don't have any suggestions for significant improvements.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      This study focuses on revealing the essential divergent function of the Acyl Carrier protein (ACP) in the deadliest human malaria parasite, Plasmodium falciparum. More precisely, using inducible KO, cellular and biochemical approaches, the authors determined that instead of a canonical role for ACP allowing the de novo synthesis of fatty acids in the apicoplast (essential relict plastid) of the parasite, the enzyme couples with pyruvate kinase II to generate nucleoside triphosphate to maintain parasite survival during blood stages. The study is novel, well-designed, providing interesting new data on Plasmodium and apicomplexa biology. The results convincingly support the major claim of the study. However, it is currently incomplete to support some claims on the essentiality of some apicoplast pathways.

      In this study, Geher et al. focused on deciphering the role of the Acyl Carrier Protein (ACP) present in the relict non-photosynthetic plastid, i.e. the apicoplast of the most lethal human malaria parasite, Plasmodium falciparum. More particularly, they determined an essential function of ACP independent of its usual/typical function as the central protein for the normal function of the apicoplast Type II fatty acid synthesis (FASII) pathway. Rather, the protein seems to associate with the apicoplast Pyruvate Kinase II, together generating an essential nucleoside triphosphate (NTPs) source to fuel the apicoplast and parasite survival instead.

      By generating a TetR-DOZY-based inducible KD line for ACP, they confirmed that the protein is indeed essential to maintain apicoplast integrity and parasite survival during asexual blood stages, as previously predicted and experimentally shown. They showed that ACP requires a biochemical modification, typically activating the protein for its function in the FASII pathway, i.e. binding of the 4-PP group by holoACP synthase. Then, they showed that the other enzymes of the FASII pathway are likely dispensable during the blood stage, as they were able to generate a KO line of the first enzyme of the pathway, FabD (which was predicted to be essential in P. falciparum). Based on a cell culture approach in a controlled culture medium, they further claimed that, unlike current evidence-based hypotheses, the FASII pathway (and thus a potentially FASII-linked ACP) has no role/activity during blood stages. Using a proximity biotinylation approach, they determined that ACP associates with the apicoplast pyruvate Kinase II (PKII), previously shown to generate NTPs in the apicoplast for energy and DNA/RNA maintenance (Xia et al. 2019), and not to fuel the FASII pathway as its main function in blood stages. Finally, they showed that the disruption of ACP induces the reduction of the presence/content in PKII in the parasite, as well as the drastic reduction of the apicoplast DNA and RNA content. Together, they concluded that the main function of ACP is indeed the NTP formation via its association with PKII, rather than its canonical role for the generation of fatty acids in the apicoplast.

      This study is novel and focuses on a topic of particular interest in malaria biology, but also for most of the apicomplexa-related diseases, and beyond for plastid bearing orgnaisms and this unusual role for ACP. The study is well thought out with proper biochemical approaches that convincingly point to this association of ACP with PKII for NTP synthesis as a major function during P. falciparum blood stages. However, there are currently some important experimental issues/flaws, missing experiments that induced wrong interpretations and thus do not support some important claims of the study, notably for the role of FASII and the interaction between ACP and PKII.

      Therefore, at this point, the study is only partial and would require major additions and/or important text edits/revisions before being considered for acceptance.

      Major points:

      From the graph of P. falciparum growth, we can see that in the lipid-rich condition, where both FabH KO and ACP KO can survive, the addition of mevalonate was essential for the growth of ACP KO. Along with the other evidence (PKII association, DNA levels...), we therefore agree that PfACP is involved in the mevalonate pathway. The authors claim that the FASII pathway is inactive/not essential in the P. falciparum blood stage. However, the authors have not shown any evidence on whether ACP is or not involved in the FASII pathway during the asexual blood stage. As currently designed, the experiments presented cannot conclude on that point for several reasons. Indeed, it was previously shown that (i) the expression of the protein from the FASII pathway are all present in blood stages and are significantly upregulated in patients that are under under "nutrient starvation" (Daily et al. Nature 2007), (ii) that, growing parasites under similar low lipid conditions in vitro induces an activation/upregulation of FASII, which can be measured by stable isotope precursor labelling and lipidomics (Botté et al. 2013), (iii) that growing the PfFabI KO line under deprived lipid conditions leads to parasite death (Amiar et al. 2020), indicating that the FASII pathway can become critical, if not essential, depending on the host nutritionnal content together correlating patients' data and metabolic adaptation for the same reasons in the related parastie Toxoplasma gondii (Amiar et al. 2020, Krishnan et al. 2020, Liang et al. 2020, Primo et al. 2021, Charital et al. 2024, Dass et al. 2024, Bitew et al. 2025).

      Here, the authors are expecting to show that FabH (and thus the FASII pathway) is not essential in an experiment that is not designed to be in low lipid conditions but rather in lipid rich conditions: Such high lipid conditions of culture in this study is granted by daily feedings with high fatty acid supplement (30-90 uM palmitic acid and 30-60 uM oleic acid). These fatty acid concentrations were used previously by Mitamura et al. (2005) and Mi-ichi et al.(2007) to replace non-determined supplements such as Serum or Albumax supplement to grant similar growth by a completely controlled culture medium.

      This means the concentrations above do not represent limited fatty acid concentrations, especially not with daily feeding (representing an excess supplied amount of lipids, unlike regular 48h feedings) that allowed the authors to easily reach very high non-physiological parasitaemia of more than 20%!! Amiar et al. previously showed essentiality of FabI in P. falciparum in the limited fatty acid culture at a lower concentration (<30uM 16:0, <45um 18:1), than the Mi-Ichi et al. controlled medium with regular 48 h culture feeding. Therefore, with the current experimental settings, the FAH KO is placed in high lipid conditions, thus preventing any conclusion on its essentiality under low lipid conditions.

      Furthermore, it is too uncertain to conclude that ACP is only essential for the mevalonate pathway. This would be a similar discussion to the Yeh et al. 2011 and the Swift et al., where induced Apicoplast knockout caused parasites to require IPP to survive, but there were always remnant apicoplast vesicles and thus the putative presence of an active FASII in the parasite, where de novo fatty acid synthesis could be maintained. Amiar et al. (2020) and Krishnan et al. (2020) showed that disruption of FASII and absence of de novo FA synthesis in T. gondii could be compensated by the exogenous supplementation of myristic acid, C14:0. Here, high fatty acid supplementation using commercially available fatty acids may include unexpected fatty acid species such as myristic acid in palmitic acid or oleic acid, since all commercially available fatty acids guarantee only >99% but not 100%. If P. falciparum requires a very, very low amount of myristic acid to survive, the amount of possible contamination, like 1 nM, may be sufficient to maintain their survival. Thus, ACP and FabH might be very important to generate de novo fatty acids within parasites, but this was not shown by the authors.

      Therefore, the manuscript currently contains incorrect conclusions on the potential essentiality/use of FASII, against current experimental evidence.

    4. Author response:

      We thank the editor and reviewers for the positive comments and critical feedback on our manuscript. We are currently preparing revisions to address the critiques provided by reviewer 2, which focused primarily on growth experiments performed with ∆ACP and ∆FabD P. falciparum parasites in minimal lipid conditions. We note that the major conclusions of our manuscript regarding an essential, FASII-independent function for ACP in apicoplast biogenesis do not require or rely on these experiments in minimal lipid conditions.

      Nevertheless, we believe that these observations have value and agree that they contrast with similar experiments reported in the Amiar et al. 2020 study referenced by the reviewer. We note that this prior study (and others cited by the reviewer) primarily focused on the related apicomplexan parasite, Toxoplasma gondii. We fully agree that available evidence in these and other papers supports a key, fitness-conferring role for FASII activity in growth of T. gondii parasites, including possible expanded functions for ACP that may differ from P. falciparum. We will revise our manuscript to clarify that our results only apply to P. falciparum. We note that our minimal lipid growth experiments with P. falciparum utilized culture conditions and concentrations that appear identical to those reported in the Amiar et al. 2020 study. Nevertheless, we agree with the reviewer that additional experiments will be required to fully test and understand FASII functions in asexual blood-stage malaria parasites, including possible functions in low-lipid conditions. We plan to revise our manuscript to clarify this and other points, and we will include expanded responses to the reviewer critiques.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This important work uses a sophisticated combination of neuromodulator imaging, optogenetics, and two-photon calcium imaging to examine how locus coeruleus-mediated norepinephrine signaling influences distinct hippocampal cell types. The evidence is solid and provides novel insights into cell type-specific responses to norepinephrine release. However, the conclusions would be strengthened by a more thorough analysis of the differences between locomotion-associated activity and optogenetic stimulation of the locus coeruleus.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, Duss et al. use several complementary and state-of-the-art strategies to characterize the effects of norepinephrine release from LC axons on post-synaptic cell types in the hippocampus. While a large body of research supports an important role for NE signaling in hippocampal function, the precise role by which NE promotes these effects remains poorly elucidated, in large part due to the complexity that adrenergic subtypes can be expressed in a variety of cell types and promote a variety of responses. Towards assessing this, the authors first establish an optogenetic strategy by which their delivery stimuli mimic endogenous activation of LC in 'moderate' and 'high' acute stress events, using NE sensors to titer stimulation patterns to similar levels of NE release. They then conduct a series of 2P imaging experiments in mice and compare response properties of various cell types in the hippocampus (excitatory and inhibitory neurons, and astrocytes) when the animal is 'naturally' or optogenetically aroused (via activation of the LC). The results are surprising. Whereas natural arousal causes activation of astrocytes, pyramidal cells, and interneurons, optogenetic activation of the LC does almost the opposite, with only astrocytes responding positively. Another important finding from the study is that astrocytes seem to be the most responsive cell type in the hippocampus to NE release, suggesting they could be key components for downstream functional effects of NE release in this brain region.

      Strengths:

      (1) The study was methodically done with respect to the characterization of how optogenetic parameters related to levels of NE release. Also, the analysis of their calcium imaging of various cell types in the hippocampus was very comprehensive.

      (2) Related, their discovery that cell types in the hippocampus respond differently to NE release, while not a completely unexpected finding, is something that has not been addressed experimentally in such a direct way before (to my knowledge).

      (3) Their finding that optogenetic stimulation of the LC produces opposing results to when these cells are naturally activated has wide implications for the LC field and potentially beyond.

      Weaknesses:

      I was surprised that no efforts were made to further assess what might be causing this discrepancy in hippocampal responses to optogenetic vs. natural activation of the LC. Some experiments that I felt were missing:

      (1) The authors go to great lengths to measure NE release in a variety of arousing conditions (tail lift, foot shock, 5Hz LC opto, 20Hz LC opto), but then in their 2P imaging, they're comparing the opto results to a 'natural' arousal state defined as when the mice were in motion. Maybe I missed it, but I wasn't sure that they ever checked the level of hippocampal NE release in this running state, similar to what they did in the other arousal conditions. Thus, it wasn't clear to me how comparable this state was to the optogenetic stimulation.

      (2) The authors do a nice experiment to show that increases in the hippocampal NE sensors are dependent on LC activity via optogenetic inhibition of the LC (Figure 1, Supplement 3). It seems like a missed opportunity to include a similar strategy in their 2P testing, to assess whether the differing responses of pyramidal cells, interneurons, and astrocytes are truly due to NE release. I could imagine it might be difficult to precisely time LC inhibition with periods of movement, but I imagine that mice would still run even if the LC is inhibited.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript aims to determine the extent to which LC-mediated NA release in the CA1 region of the hippocampus (at both population and cellular levels) contributes to physiological arousal responses associated with innate behaviors (stress, locomotion). The manuscript is divided into two parts in which the authors compare time-locked responses in astrocytes, interneurons (pan-targeting), and pyramidal (CaMKIIa-driven targeting) cells.

      In the first part of the manuscript, the authors perform bulk recordings of either NA release or calcium activity locked onto either 'natural arousal' events (tail lift, foot shock, force swim) or direct optogenetic activation of LC somas. A first aim is to identify an optogenetic stimulation frequency that would mimic NE release in the target area by low- and high-intensity stressors. In the second aim, they compared evoked responses across cell types and concluded that stressors and direct LC activation trigger similar responses in astrocytes but not in interneurons or pyramidal cells.

      In the second - and most extended - part of the manuscript, the authors performed 2-photon cellular recordings of these different cell populations and compared responses evoked by the onset of locomotion vs. direct activation of the LC. Doing so, they observed a great degree of heterogeneity across these two conditions and across cell types. They conclude that NA effects on the hippocampus are primarily mediated by astrocytes and that LC-NA neuromodulation alone does not recapitulate the full breadth of 'natural arousal' modulations. They conclude that other neuromodulators likely contribute to how the hippocampus responds to high arousal levels.

      Strengths:

      Overall, the manuscript is well written and the figures are particularly clear.

      Optogenetics is a very successful technique in contemporary neuroscience, yet one important identified limitation is that it operates largely in a non-physiological regime, driving spike rates in regions rarely visited under normal physiological operations. This has raised valid concerns about the physiological relevance of findings obtained from studies using this technique. Here, the authors aimed at calibrating optogenetic manipulations of the LC so as to match the physiological release of NA observed in specific behavioral contexts. This is a valuable endeavor that could bring the field towards more reproducible and broadly valid findings.

      Another important open question is how different cell types coordinate to support global network activity and adaptive behavior. By recording distinct cell populations from the same region (CA1) and in response to the same category of endogenous versus exogenous events (locomotion or LC activation), it becomes possible to unravel important and specific operation modes, here also linked to a specific category of neuromodulation signaling.

      Weaknesses:

      This manuscript was difficult to review. There is clearly a lot of work and effort that went into it, and the multiple techniques seem well implemented, often with appropriate controls. Yet, the general framing, the links between experiments and interpretations, unfortunately, look questionable in my opinion. Below, I unpack what I think are the 4 main weakness points.

      (1) Incomplete calibration of optogenetic manipulations to physiological regimes

      While mapping optogenetic stimulation protocols to physiological variations is valuable, the proposed approach suffers from major limitations. First, the only parameter that is calibrated is the peak of NE release (as estimated from GRAB-NE fluorescence). Thus, it excludes other important aspects of the response, including trial-to-trial variability and the temporal dynamics of the response. Furthermore, stressor and LC activation conditions are simply non-comparable in terms of the duration of the stimulation (e.g., 3 min swim test versus 10s optogenetic stimulation), likely involving neuromodulation at different timescales (phasic vs. tonic). Albeit not explicitly mentioned, the number of trials and inter-trial interval between successive stimulations are also likely unmatched. On another note, the identification of the best stimulation frequency seems based on a grid of predefined values, while a more precise, continuous assessment could have easily been used. Finally, even though phasic NE release is known to depend on baseline tonic NE levels (especially with a sensor that reports a sublinear function of NE concentration), this dimension is ignored.

      (2) Weak links between imposed stressors and spontaneous locomotion

      The general approach is surprising: authors calibrated the optogenetic stimulation protocol on a range of stress-related behaviors and applied this to locomotion behavior. Indeed, while the first part of the manuscript uses different stressors in freely moving contexts to 'naturally' elevate arousal, the second part uses spontaneous locomotion bouts in a head-fixed situation as proxies for heightened 'natural' arousal. These two parts are very difficult to relate, and it is entirely unclear how NE regimes observed in the first context generalize to the second. Yet, on several occasions, the authors directly relate the first (fiber photometry, Fig.1) and second (2-photon, Fig. 2-6) parts of the manuscript. For instance, they conclude in favor of a "weak alignment between astrocytic responses to arousal and to LC stimulation on a cellular basis, despite the similarity of the bulk response." It remains unclear why closer preparations weren't used in the two parts, such as time-locked change in GRAB-NE2m fluorescence according to either locomotion onset or in a fear conditioning assay, both using fiber photometry in a head-fixed setting.

      (3) LC optogenetics and spontaneous locomotion differ by more than the origin of the arousal drive

      By directly comparing spontaneous locomotion and LC activation, the authors imply that the only difference between these two conditions is the origin of arousal: endogenous vs. exogenous, respectively. Furthermore, they interpret LC activation as triggering a pure NA effect while locomotion would reflect the conglomerate modulation from multiple neuromodulatory systems. On the one hand, LC activation likely results in the recruitment of other arousal centers (the raphe serotonin system, for instance, see 10.1101/2025.03.26.644382). On the other hand, differences between these conditions span well beyond specific arousal centers (see the massive motor-related activity in cortical dynamics: 10.1038/s41593-019-0502-4). Another, more methodological concern is the larger instability of the field of view during locomotion by comparison to optogenetic activation. While I am sure the authors corrected for movement-related translation in x and y directions, there might still be residual motion artefacts in the z direction that could account for some of the differences between the two conditions.

      (4) Loose equivalence between locomotion and natural arousal

      On many occasions, the authors draw a direct equivalence between spontaneous locomotion and 'natural arousal'. Arousal is a multifaceted concept that relates to far more behavioral readouts and network states than just locomotion. For instance, imagine a freezing mouse in response to a threat: locomotion would be absent, but the animal would still be quite aroused. It is ok to leave aside a particular readout and focus on other one(s) (especially thus in the case of arousal, which has many aspects). However, in that case, a single readout cannot be equated with 'natural arousal' as a whole. Instead, terms like 'locomotion' or 'locomotion-linked arousal' should be preferred. Indeed, in the particular case of locomotion, what is being readout is the upper part of the arousal continuum, whereas pupil size or whisker pad movements can also provide a more complete readout, including the lower and intermediate parts of that same continuum. While it is not necessary to include other arousal readouts (once claims are appropriately modified), the motivation for leaving out available readouts (lines 187-201) feels like a post-hoc rationalization.

      In sum, these 4 points call in my opinion for a profound change in how results are presented and interpreted. If agreed, a solution could be to leave aside the first part of the manuscript, to provide a more accurate picture of the differences between optogenetic activation and spontaneous locomotion, and to better flag the limitations of the approach (a part that I believe is entirely missing in the current version).

    4. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, the authors focused on the CA1 region of the hippocampus to compare Ca2+ dynamics in astrocytes, pyramidal neurons, and interneurons in response to optogenetic stimulation of locus coeruleus-triggered noradrenaline (NA) release, or movement (natural arousal)-triggered NA release. The most striking finding is that all studied cell types responded differently to LC stimulation compared to natural arousal. The description of these findings is important as a resource for further mechanistic studies on how multiple neuromodulator systems may interact or for predicting the consequences of the selective impairment of the noradrenergic system.

      Strengths:

      The technical design and conduct of the experiments, analysis including statistics, as well as the presentation of the results, are timely and very solid.

      Weaknesses:

      The identity and localization of NA receptors responsible for effects on neurons are less clear, and therefore, the difference between LC stimulation and natural arousal is less surprising. However, the presented data are consistent with the established finding that astrocytes directly sense NA mainly through α1 adrenergic receptors, yet in this study, astrocytes that responded strongest to LC stimulation did not respond strongest to natural arousal, and vice versa for other astrocytes.

      The authors seem to favor diversity of astrocyte responsiveness as an explanation, but also mention differences in LC activation pattern and distance of individual astrocytes to NAergic nerve terminals. Therefore, this warrants a careful consideration of a critical aspect of the experimental design. The authors delivered Ca2+/NA sensors as well as the optogenetic tools via AAV. While Figure 1 Supplement 3 suggests that most LC neurons were transduced, AAV transduction will almost certainly lead to a diversity in copy numbers per cell. On the receptor side, this can lead to an artificial diversity in Ca2+ response detection sensitivity among individual cells, but more importantly, for the LC, this could account for a different pattern of activation by optogenetic stimulation compared to activation by natural arousal. Such a problem would remain unnoticed with the currently presented matching of optogenetic and natural arousal stimulations of LC using population NA sensor signals (Figure 1, fiber photometry).

      Major suggestion:

      A critical experiment to test for this caveat would be to ideally express the NA sensor in astrocytes (due to their space-filling process arborizations and direct response to NA; but expression in neurons, as present, would work as well) and study the spatial pattern of NA release using two-photon microscopy, comparing multiple days and LC stimulation by optogenetics versus natural arousal. In case these experiments revealed nonuniform NA signal patterns, stable over days, but different when caused by optogenetic stimulation versus natural arousal, it would possibly shift the interpretation of the astrocyte response patterns towards depending mainly on NA release rather than diversity in NA responsiveness. Such a finding would be consistent with studies that compared arousal-mediated Ca2+ dynamics in NAergic terminals and Bergmann glia in the cerebellum (PMID: 36790089). On the other hand, in case these added experiments revealed similar NA release patterns in response to optogenetic stimulation versus natural arousal, then the presented findings would convincingly represent a biological phenomenon.

      Minor suggestion:

      Using "movement" as a proxy for arousal is very appropriate. To avoid the misunderstanding that different phenomena have been studied, it may be useful to acknowledge that early studies of noradrenergic signaling to astrocytes have found that speed of locomotion does not correlate well with astrocyte Ca2+ responses, and electromyographic signals have been used as a "proxy for movement" (PMID: 24945771).

    5. Author response:

      We thank the reviewers for their positive and constructive feedback and for the careful reading of our manuscript.

      We plan to address the reviewers’ comments and, specifically, to more thoroughly compare movement-associated activity with optogenetic stimulation of the locus coeruleus (LC), with new experiments, clarifications, and additional analyses.

      (1) We plan to perform new experiments using two-photon imaging of noradrenaline (NA) sensors in head-fixed mice during both optogenetic LC stimulation and spontaneous movement. This will, if successful, allow us to directly compare the spatial and temporal structure of NA release across conditions, and to quantify NA amplitude during locomotion versus LC stimulation.

      (2) We will analyze existing NA fiber photometry data for movement-related NA release and compare it to release evoked by LC stimulation.

      (3) In general, we plan to more prominently highlight the limitations of our study that were brought up by the reviewers. In particular, we will expand our discussion of other neuromodulatory systems and their interactions with the LC-NA system, and will tone down conclusions of our study if they cannot be supported by the additional planned experiments and analyses.

      Finally, a reviewer suggested the additional experiment to inhibit LC while performing two-photon imaging in head-fixed animals. These experiments have, due to their technical complexity, a low likelihood of success. In addition, recent work from the lab of Emily Macé already performs LC inhibition during functional recordings (doi: 10.64898/2026.03.06.710089). This work supports our interpretation that the contribution of LC-evoked NA release does not dominate movement-related signals. We will discuss these recent findings in the revised version of our manuscript.

      Together, we believe that these planned experiments, analyses, and revisions will address all main concerns raised by the reviewers.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This important technical development for neural circuit tracing in larval zebrafish consists in an enhanced rabies virus for improved retrograde transneuronal tracing, supporting a new method for combined structural and functional brain mapping which is demonstrated with compelling evidence. The work will interest zebrafish neurobiologists for the identification of neuronal connectivity patterns while simultaneously monitoring circuit activity.

    2. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      The study by Chen, Deng et al. aims to develop an efficient viral transneuronal tracing method that enables retrograde tracing in larval zebrafish. The authors utilize pseudotyped rabies virus that can be targeted to specific cell types using the EnvA-TvA system.

      Pseudotyped rabies virus has been used extensively in rodent models and, in recent years, has begun to be developed for use in adult zebrafish. However, compared to rodents, the efficiency of spread in adult zebrafish is very low (~one upstream neuron labeled per starter cell). Additionally, there is limited evidence of retrograde tracing with pseudotyped rabies in the larval stage, which is when most functional neural imaging studies are conducted in the field. In this study, the authors systematically optimized several parameters for rabies tracing, including rabies virus strains, glycoprotein types, temperatures, expression construct designs, and the elimination of glial labeling. The optimal configurations developed by the authors are up to 5-10-fold higher than more commonly used configurations.

      The results are compelling and support the conclusions.

    3. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      (1) Presentation of Figures in the Response Letter

      I would like to note that the figures included in the response letter would benefit from improved organization. For example, Author response image 1 lacks clarity for experimental conditions. From the response letter, my understanding is that a "Labeling rate index", Rg−Rn, was calculated to represent the difference in the rate of increase in labeling between neurons and glial across two time intervals based on experiments shown in Figure 2-figure supplement 1C and G. It seems that a mean convergence index was calculated for each experimental condition at each time point for glial and neurons, and then the differences in mean convergence index increase between time intervals were calculated for glial and neurons. The legend needs more detail to enhance clarity.

      Yes, the “labeling rate index” (Rg−Rn) corresponds exactly to the reviewer’s understanding. Specifically, it quantifies the difference between neurons and glia in the increase of the mean convergence index across two defined time intervals, calculated separately for each experimental condition based on the experiments shown in Figure 2–figure supplement 1C and G.

      To improve clarity, we have substantially revised the figure legend to explicitly describe (i) the definition of labeling rate, (ii) how the mean convergence index was computed for neurons and glia at each time point, (iii) how changes across time intervals were derived, and (iv) how to calculate the labeling rate index. In addition, we have moved this analysis to Figure 2-figure supplement 2 and cited it in Line 191.

      Furthermore, the manuscript should clearly distinguish between figures generated from re-analysis of existing data and those based on newly conducted experiments. This distinction should be explicitly stated in the figure legends and/or main text.

      I recommend that all response figures containing data integral to the authors' rebuttal be properly integrated into the manuscript's existing supplementary figure set, rather than remaining isolated in the response document. This would enhance clarity and ensure that key supporting data are fully accessible to readers. For instance, Author response image 1 can be integrated with Figure 2-figure supplement.

      We appreciate the reviewers’ valuable suggestions. We have revised the figure legends and/or corresponding main text to clearly distinguish figures derived from re-analysis of existing data from those based on newly conducted experiments. In addition, all response figures containing data integral to our rebuttal have now been integrated into the current manuscript’s supplementary figure set.

      Specifically, Author response images 1 and 3 have been incorporated into Figure 2–figure supplement 2 and Figure 2–figure supplement 3, respectively; Author response image 2 has been incorporated into Figure 1–figure supplement 2. Author response image 4 has been incorporated into Figure 1,2–figure supplement 1. These changes improve clarity and ensure that all supporting data are readily accessible to readers.

      (2) Glial Cell Labeling and Specificity of Trans-Synaptic Spread

      The authors provided a comprehensive and well-reasoned response to the concern regarding the labeling of radial glial cells. The inclusion of a dedicated section in the revised Discussion and response figures (possibly to be integrated with supplementary figures), strengthens the manuscript.

      The authors have made an interesting observation in Author response image 2 that glial labeling was frequently observed near the soma and dendrites of starter cells, suggesting that transneuronal labeled glial cells may be synaptically associated with the starter neurons. Also astroglia starter cells lead to infection of nearby TVA-negative astroglia, suggesting astroglia-to- astroglia transmission.

      I find the response scientifically satisfactory and appreciate the authors' transparency in addressing the limitations of their approach.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive and thoughtful evaluation. As suggested, we have integrated the revised Discussion and the corresponding response figures into the main text and the supplementary figure set, ensuring that these observations and their interpretation are clearly presented and readily accessible to readers.

      (3) Temperature Effects and Larval Viability

      The authors' justification for raising larvae at 36C to improve labeling efficiency is reasonable. The supporting data indicating minimal impact on larval viability within the experimental timeframe are convincing. Referencing prior behavioral studies and including survival data under controlled conditions adds credibility to their claims. I find this issue satisfactorily addressed.

      We thank the reviewer for this positive and constructive evaluation.

      (4) Viral Toxicity and Dosage Considerations, Secondary Starter Cells

      The authors present a well-reasoned explanation that viral cytotoxicity is primarily driven by replication and not by viral titer or injection volume. However, the inclusion of experimental data directly testing the effects of higher titer or volume on starter cell viability would have strengthened this point, particularly since such tests are relatively straightforward to perform.

      We agree with the reviewer that directly testing the effects of viral titer and injection volume on starter cell viability would further strengthen this point. In practice, we have already used the highest CVS virus titer that could be reliably generated in our system. Therefore, we tested injection volumes of up to 20 nl and observed no detectable effect on starter cell survival, whereas higher injection volumes resulted in deformation of the larval brain, precluding their use.

      Although not shown as a separate figure, these data informed our interpretation of viral toxicity, which is now described more clearly in the revised Discussion. We hope that this explanation and the clarified discussion adequately address the reviewer’s concern.

      Regarding the potential contribution of secondary starter cells, the authors provide a convincing rationale for why such effects are unlikely under their sparse labeling conditions. However, in cases where TVA and G are broadly expressed-such as under the vglut2a promoter, as shown in Author response image 2 it would be valuable to directly evaluate this possibility experimentally. While the authors' interpretation is reasonable, empirical validation would further strengthen their conclusions.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s interest in experimentally evaluating the potential contribution of secondary starter cells under conditions of broad TVA and G expression. In response, we performed additional viral tracing experiments in which TVA and G were driven by the excitatory neuronal marker vglut2a to achieve broad helper expression.

      As shown in a representative case (Author response image 1), newly appearing tdTomato<sup>+</sup> neurons were observed at the later time (6 vs. 3 dpi, circles), many of which were spatially separated from EGFP<sup>+</sup>/tdTomato<sup>+</sup> starter neurons identified at the early time point (3 dpi, dashed circles). Notably, a subset of these newly labeled tdTomato<sup>+</sup> neurons colocalized with EGFP (6 vs. 3 dpi, dashed cyan circles). These new EGFP<sup>+</sup>/tdTomato<sup>+</sup> neurons may represent secondary starter cells or delayed infection of initially targeted starters. Interpretation of tdTomato<sup>+</sup>-only neurons (6 dpi, gray circles) is further complicated by variability in projection distance and synaptic strength, as short-range secondary-order (or multi-level) inputs and long-range first-order inputs may be labeled within similar time windows. In addition, in the presence of multiple primary or secondary starter neurons, unambiguous assignment of labeled inputs to specific starters remains challenging, even with high-temporal-resolution imaging.

      Owing to these constraints, empirical identification of secondary (or multi-level) connections is not readily achievable with the current tracing strategy. A potential solution would be to combine pan-neuronal helper expression with spatiotemporally controlled activation, for example, through a transgenic line enabling light-inducible helper expression (e.g., G protein). Such an approach would enable delayed and cell-specific initiation of secondary (or multi-level) starters, thereby temporally separating long-range first-order inputs from multi-step circuit propagation and permitting input tracing of targeted cells, ultimately improving the spatiotemporal resolution of circuit mapping.

      We have incorporated a dedicated section in the revised Discussion to clarify the applicable scenarios, limitations, and future directions of this viral tracing strategy in zebrafish.

      Author response image 1.

      Recombinant RV-based viral tracing under broad helper expression conditions.

      Time-lapse (3 and 6 dpi) confocal images of the larval hindbrain showing recombinant RV-based viral tracing under broad helper expression (TVA and G, green) via vglut2a promoter-driven UGNT, following posterior hindbrain infection with CVSdG-tdTomato[EnvA] (magenta). Dashed circles, areas enriched with EGFP<sup>+</sup>/tdTomato<sup>+</sup> neurons; gray circles, areas enriched with tdTomato<sup>+</sup>-only neurons; dashed white lines, hindbrain boundaries. C, caudal; R, rostral. Scale bars, 20 μm.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      The study by Chen, Deng et al. aims to develop an efficient viral transneuronal tracing method that allows efficient retrograde tracing in the larval zebrafish. The authors utilize pseudotyped-rabies virus that can be targeted to specific cell types using the EnvA-TvA systems. Pseudotyped rabies virus has been used extensively in rodent models and, in recent years, has begun to be developed for use in adult zebrafish. However, compared to rodents, the efficiency of spread in adult zebrafish is very low (~one upstream neuron labeled per starter cell). Additionally, there is limited evidence of retrograde tracing with pseudotyped rabies in the larval stage, which is the stage when most functional neural imaging studies are done in the field. In this study, the authors systematically optimized several parameters of rabies tracing, including different rabies virus strains, glycoprotein types, temperatures, expression construct designs, and elimination of glial labeling. The optimal configurations developed by the authors are up to 5-10 fold higher than more typically used configurations.

      The results are convincing and support the conclusions. There are some additional changes that are recommended:

      (1) The new data included in the response to reviewer's letter are important to support the main conclusions and should be included in the manuscript.

      We agree with the reviewer that the new data provided in the response are important for supporting the main conclusions. Accordingly, we have now incorporated all four figures from the response into the supplementary figure set of the revised manuscript and added the corresponding descriptions and discussion to the main text where appropriate.

      (2) Line 357-362: This section should include all of the response letter figures and associated details. Additionally, the Author response image 3 is at odds with Fig 2-supplement 1G. In Author response image 3, ~75% of glial cells labeled at 4 dpi loses their fluorescence by 10 dpi. However, Figure 2-supplement 1G shows that glial overall labeling increases ~2 fold from 4 dpi to 10 dpi. This would suggest that the de novo labeling rate for glia is much higher than the net labeling rate calculated from the convergence index. The authors should clarify these findings.

      We agree with the reviewer that the original section at Lines 357-362 should cite the relevant figures and include the associated details. We have now relocated this content to the Results section and incorporated the corresponding figures and descriptions.

      In addition, we fully agree with the reviewer’s interpretation regarding the apparent discrepancy between the high loss rate of early-labeled glial cells (previously Author response image 3, now Figure 2—figure supplement 3) and the net increase in total glial labeling (Figure 2—figure supplement 1G). This pattern indicates that the net convergence index underestimates the true rate of de novo glial infection, as early labeled glial cells progressively lose detectable fluorescence while overall glial labeling continues to increase, implying ongoing de novo infection events outpace this loss. We have clarified this point in the Results section.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The new data included in the response to reviewer letter are important to support the main conclusions and should be included in the manuscript.

      This recommendation echoes the point raised in Reviewer #2’s Public Comment #1. As detailed in our response there, all new data originally included in the response letter have now been fully integrated into the manuscript’s supplementary figure set, with corresponding descriptions added to the main text.

      Line 357-362: This section should include all of the Author response images and associated details. Additionally, Author response image 3 is at odds with Fig 2-supplement 1G. In Author response image 3, ~75% of glial cells labeled at 4 dpi loses their fluorescence by 10 dpi. However, Figure 2-supplement 1G shows that glial overall labeling increases ~2 fold from 4 dpi to 10 dpi. This would suggest that the de novo labeling rate for glia is much higher than the net labeling rate calculated from the convergence index. The authors should clarify these findings.

      This recommendation echoes the concern raised in Reviewer #2’s Public Comment #2 regarding the apparent discrepancy between glial cell loss and the net increase in glial labeling. Please refer to our response to that comment for a detailed explanation. Briefly, we clarify that the continued increase in overall glial labeling despite substantial loss of early-labeled glia indicates a high rate of ongoing de novo infection that is not captured by net convergence index measurements alone. The relevant figure and associated details, including this clarification, have now been incorporated into the revised main text.

      Data and description for response letter Figure 4 should be quantified and added to the manuscript.

      Across nine infected larvae examined, initial infection was consistently restricted to TVA-positive astroglia, typically involving a single starter glial cell per larva. No viral spread was observed in three larvae injected with SADdG-mCherry[EnvA], whereas astroglia-to-astroglia transmission was detected in three of six larvae injected with CVSdG-tdTomato[EnvA]. Importantly, no neuronal labeling was observed in any of the experiments. These quantitative data and descriptions, originally presented as Author response image 4, have now been incorporated into the main text as Figure 1,2–figure supplement 1).

    1. eLife Assessment

      In this valuable study, de Vries and colleagues aim to determine how the perception of biological motion is organized at the neural level, specifically testing whether this process rests on hierarchical predictive processing by extending a methodological framework that the authors previously published. The evidence is solid for the empirical claim that neural representations of body motion systematically lead the stimulus in time, with simulations validating the regression approach and consistent effects on both peak magnitude and peak latency. Support for the stronger theoretical interpretation that these signatures specifically reflect active hierarchical predictive inference requires further substantiation, since the design and analysis do not distinguish such inference from cached associative retrieval or from nonlinear temporal integration of slowly varying features.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary

      The authors apply dynamic representational similarity analysis (dRSA), a method introduced in de Vries and Wurm 2023, to source-reconstructed MEG data from 40 participants who viewed ballet dancing sequences under three conditions: normal viewing, up-down inversion, and temporal piecewise scrambling. In normal viewing, they replicate their previous finding of a hierarchical pattern of leading-edge neural representations, with view-invariant body motion represented earliest in time (around 500 ms before the corresponding stimulus state), followed by view-dependent body motion (around 200 ms) and pixelwise motion (around 150 ms). Inversion selectively attenuates the leading-edge representation of view-invariant body motion while enhancing view-dependent body motion. Scrambling abolishes all leading-edge motion representations and instead increases post-stimulus representations of body posture. The authors interpret these findings as evidence that biological motion perception relies on a hierarchy of priors operating within a predictive-processing framework, with inversion specifically disrupting holistic priors and scrambling disrupting kinematics priors.

      Strengths

      The empirical work is careful and technically ambitious. The dRSA framework introduced in the 2023 paper is a useful methodological contribution to the study of dynamic neural representations, and the present manuscript extends it in well-motivated directions. The dataset is substantial: 40 participants, source-reconstructed MEG, three within-subject conditions. The replication of the 2023 normal-condition findings in an independent 40-subject sample is solid, which is increasingly rare and welcome in the field. The inversion and scrambling manipulations are well-motivated, and the conditions are matched on stimulus identity. Principal component regression is used appropriately to handle the genuine challenge of correlated and autocorrelated stimulus features, and the authors validate this choice through simulations. Eye position is included as a covariate and successfully regressed out, addressing a common confound in MEG decoding work. Behavioral catch trials demonstrate that participants attended to the stimuli across conditions. Both frequentist and Bayesian statistics are reported with appropriate corrections for multiple comparisons. The inversion result, in particular, is striking, and the asymmetry between view-invariant and view-dependent representations is informative.

      Weaknesses

      The central interpretive step in the manuscript treats a negative-lag dRSA peak as direct evidence for active hierarchical predictive inference. The data are equally consistent with at least three other accounts that the manuscript does not engage with, and the conclusion is therefore stronger than the data support.

      First, the leading-edge dRSA signature is a natural consequence of nonlinear temporal integration of autocorrelated stimulus features. A long line of work from the Winawer and Grill-Spector labs (Zhou et al. 2018, Zhou et al. 2019, Stigliani et al. 2017, Kim et al. 2024) has established that the human visual cortex implements compressive temporal summation with delayed divisive normalization and that temporal integration windows progressively increase from early to higher visual areas. A nonlinear-summation response to an autocorrelated feature encodes deviations from the recent baseline. For smooth trajectories, this is essentially a local derivative, and the derivative inherits the trajectory's leading edge as a free consequence - no predictive machinery required. The integration-window hierarchy that Kim et al. (2024) recovered from voxelwise spatiotemporal pRFs maps onto the 150 / 200 / 500 ms hierarchy reported here almost one-for-one. That alignment is unlikely to be coincidental and deserves explicit treatment.

      Second, the experimental design places participants firmly in the regime where Dayan's successor representation (SR) predicts that the brain holds a precompiled associative cache of trajectory structure. Each unique sequence is presented approximately 47 times across the experiment. An SR in Dayan's original formulation is a precompiled lookup table, not an online inference engine - querying it during familiar trajectories produces leading-edge representations through passive associative retrieval, mechanistically distinct from active prediction despite producing similar signatures. The senior author's own lab has demonstrated SR-like representations in V1 (Ekman, Kusch, de Lange 2023 eLife), but this paper is not cited or engaged with in the present manuscript despite its direct relevance.

      Third, the canonical computational model of biological motion perception (Giese and Poggio 2003 Nat Rev Neurosci) is a fully feedforward template-matching architecture that predates the predictive-coding framing of biological motion. It accommodates the inversion effect (templates tuned to upright statistics), the hierarchy of timescales (graded leaky integrator time constants), and the scrambling effect (broken sequence-neuron activation) without invoking generative models or prediction errors. The manuscript cites Giese-tradition work for the inversion-effect literature but does not engage with the model itself, even though it is the field standard.

      The inversion result, while empirically striking, has a simpler interpretation than the one offered. Inversion makes viewpoint-invariant body computation fail because the underlying machinery is tuned to upright body statistics. A weaker representation produces a weaker dRSA signature at every lag, including the leading edge - no appeal to priors in the active-inference sense is required. The view-dependent enhancement under inversion fits this reading naturally: when viewpoint abstraction fails, processing falls back to viewpoint-specific representations that remain extractable. The manuscript implicitly acknowledges this when it states that "predictions were channeled to the level at which prediction was still possible," but does not notice that this concession softens the strong predictive-coding inference.

      The scrambling result is internally awkward on the predictive-coding framing. The paper acknowledges that pixelwise motion prediction should, in principle, survive 200-500 ms scrambled segments (typical latency around 150 ms) but reports that it does not. The proposed save - that segments are "too short to start up prediction" - undercuts the framework, since by the same logic, most of normal viewing would also be pre-prediction. A cleaner reading is that scrambling destroys the temporal autocorrelation of stimulus features, which is the prerequisite both for nonlinear-summation neural responses to produce leading-edge representations and for SR-style associative retrieval to operate.

      A further concern is that the experimental design and analysis pipeline are structurally biased toward producing the cleanest possible predictive signature. The 14 stimuli are repeated extensively, and trials are averaged across repetitions before dRSA is computed, filtering out exactly the variability that would distinguish online prediction from amortized retrieval. The 2023 paper reports a control comparing the first and last thirds of the experiment, but this test is in the post-saturation regime for any plausible associative-learning rate and does not actually adjudicate the question. A first-exposure or first-run analysis would be diagnostic. Finally, the behavioral task changed between the 2023 paper and the present manuscript. The earlier paradigm asked participants to recognize the current motion ("arms moving up?"), while the present paradigm asks participants to judge whether an occluded video continues correctly. The latter explicitly demands prediction. This change transforms the experimental context from naturalistic viewing into one that actively incentivizes predictive engagement, potentially inflating the very signatures the paper interprets as spontaneous prediction.

      The 2023 Nature Communications paper actually navigated these interpretive questions more carefully than the present manuscript does, explicitly stating that the approach "does not provide conclusive evidence for predictive processing/coding theory but leaves the door open for related theories such as adaptive resonance or Bayesian inference without predictive coding." The current manuscript would benefit from restoring that epistemic discipline. The data and methods are valuable; the interpretive frame is overstated relative to what the evidence supports.

      Impact and utility

      The dataset and dRSA framework are useful contributions to the study of neural representation of dynamic stimuli, and the inversion and scrambling conditions open productive lines of inquiry. The interpretive over-commitment to predictive processing risks limiting the paper's reach into adjacent literatures - temporal integration, successor representations, template-matching biological motion models, encoding-model approaches - where the findings could land productively. With a more pluralistic interpretive frame, this work would speak to a substantially broader audience and connect more naturally with existing mechanistic accounts of dynamic visual processing.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, de Vries and colleagues apply successful probabilistic inference and predictive coding frameworks to the question of biological motion perception. In contrast to most studies of predictive processing in humans, which rely on the presentation of discrete events, they instead aimed to track continuous predictions in the context of more naturalistic inputs such as biological motion. In these settings, the authors have previously demonstrated an inverted temporal hierarchy of prediction whereby high-level movement features (e.g., view-invariant body motion) are predicted earlier than lower-level ones (e.g., pixelwise motion). The specific question they set out to address in this manuscript is whether these predictions derive from prior beliefs about the biological and physical organization of biological movements versus the local extrapolation of motion from past observations.

      The authors used anatomical MRI-driven source reconstruction of MEG activity recorded from human participants watching either normal, vertically-mirrored, or temporally scrambled movies. They then aimed to correlate activity in preselected ROIs with summary representations of these movies based on different visual features at 3 different hierarchical levels using RSA. Doing so, they could confirm that predictive processes could be identified prior to the change in the stimulus and organized anatomically along the visual cortical hierarchy. Critically, they report that mirrored movies selectively disrupted the highest processing level while the lowest level remained largely unaffected. Interestingly, the predictions at the intermediate level were boosted in mirrored movies, suggesting a possible channeling of predictions at this level when highest-level predictions are unavailable. Finally, disrupting all predictive aspects with the scrambled movies entirely abolished predictions at all levels, with signals mainly reflecting reactive bottom-up processing of inputs.

      In sum, biological motion perception relies on a tight coordination of multi-level predictions based on both motion-related holistic and kinematics priors.

      Strengths:

      Overall, this is a very strong manuscript, with the text being clearly written. I liked the fact that the authors not only compared responses to normal videos against the same videos flipped upside-down, but also to temporal piecewise scrambling of that same video, allowing to identify the respective roles of holistic motion priors vs. temporal predictions. Of course, more work is needed to tease apart what key quantities are represented in these holistic priors. For now, the authors argue that they likely combine prior beliefs about the biological organization of bodies, such as the likely angle of joint movements, and about the physics of reality, such as gravity. Further work teasing apart these aspects would be interesting to read!

      All analyses seem well executed and, while some aspects of the presentation of results could be slightly improved (see below), the manuscript is very clear and the conclusions are supported by the data. Finally, I liked the words of caution the authors added to the discussion. For instance, while they largely used negative vs. positive latency as a proxy for top-down vs. bottom-up processing respectively throughout the manuscript, they also accurately acknowledge that predictive computations could also modulate processes at positive lags, through, for instance, latency modulation.

      Weaknesses:

      The main aspect of the work I was left to struggle with is this idea that priors can be read out directly from large patterns of activity rates as measured with MEG. While some past experimental work does support this view, theoretical proposals also suggest that one benefit of predictive coding lies in its computational and energy-efficient properties, whereby only novel, unpredicted aspects are encoded in the rate of neural activity. Some other research lines, for instance, focusing on silent working memory, also report the brain's ability to store important computations in ways that are not reflected in costly increases in overall activity. The authors do not really unpack why they expect to see predictions to be encoded in such a way in the first place. They also do not discuss what that implies in terms of neural organization and whether other aspects of neural activity (e.g., oscillations, synaptic weights) could subtend predictive processing in this context. At the end of the day, this activity change is clearly there in the data, so that's totally fine to interpret that; it just would be helpful to unpack what such an implementation of prior beliefs would imply in terms of neural organization.

      The other weakness point I see is the little consideration for behavior throughout the paper. Behavior is indeed mostly treated as a negative control, ensuring that differences between conditions at the neural level do not follow from different behavioral strategies or other peripheral factors. Critically, task design nicely incorporates two types of tasks: one that is related to motion (occlusion of movement) and one that's independent of it (color change of fixation cross). Yet, these conditions are not directly compared at the neural level. It would be useful to see whether the neural signatures of prediction are largely independent from the ongoing task or whether behavior gates the types of priors and prediction processes that are applied to incoming sensory inputs. Moreover, the text says that "neither in accuracy nor in reaction time was there a significant difference between conditions", yet significance stars in Figure 1d seem to suggest there is a difference in the fixation cross task. What am I missing? If there is indeed a difference in overall performance, can the results (esp. the reduced dRSA correlation strength in normal < inverted < scrambled movie) be interpreted in terms of a multi-tasking cognitive cost?

      I also have some other minor questions and comments:

      (1) In this task situation, prediction does not only come in the continuous domain but also relies on a mental simulation model, in particular in the occlusion task. However, corresponding literature, notably the work by Shepard & Metzler (1971) on mental rotation (as well as follow-ups), is not mentioned here, I believe. Could the authors perhaps mention this if they think that's relevant (if not, feel free to ignore).

      (2) I'm concerned that the novelty of dynamic RSA as explained at lines 56-64 might appear slightly exaggerated. After all, isn't it just a generalization of matrix correlation in model and brain time domains? (Again, feel free to ignore if I misunderstood.)

      (3) How do authors explain that high-level motion prediction is still significantly larger than zeros (correct?) in the inverted movie condition? Shouldn't it be entirely abolished?

    4. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors investigate whether the brain's predictive representation of observed biological motion depends on holistic priors about body structure or on kinematic priors about motion continuity. The manuscript applies dynamic representational similarity analysis to MEG data from a large number of participants viewing ballet sequences under three conditions: normal, upside-down inverted, and temporally scrambled into short epochs.

      Strengths:

      The study reports that inversion selectively attenuates predictions of view-invariant body motion and enhances predictions of view-dependent body motion, while leaving low-level pixel-wise motion prediction unaffected. Further, scrambling eliminates predictive motion representations at every level and instead produces stronger post-stimulus representations of body posture, with view-invariant posture also delayed. The pattern across the two manipulations is internally consistent, holds across both peak magnitude and peak latency measures, and is also supported by a neural-to-neural dynamic representational similarity analysis (dRSA) analysis between normal and inverted conditions. The principal component regression pipeline is validated through simulations showing that it recovers the model of interest while suppressing covarying models. In particular, the inversion result provides strong evidence that high-level predictions of biological motion depend on holistic priors while predictions at lower levels do not, and the finding that disruption at the top of the hierarchy does not propagate down is informative for predictive processing accounts that assume a more cascading architecture.

      Weaknesses:

      The interpretation of the scrambling result is the main caveat of the manuscript. The claim that low-level motion prediction depends on kinematic continuity rests on the absence of pixelwise motion prediction in the scrambled condition, but the 200 to 500-ms segments may not be sufficient for prediction to develop, as the authors also point out. Without a parametric manipulation of segment length, it is difficult to distinguish a genuine dependence on kinematic priors from a floor. The interpretation of increased post-stimulus posture representations as prediction errors is also somewhat indirect, since a positive latency does not rule out potential top-down modulation/factor.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This study presents a fundamental methodological advance that enables measurements of single-channel gating behavior of CRAC channels whose unitary currents are too small to be resolved electrically. By combining a channel-tethered calcium-sensitive dye (JF646-BAPTA) with voltage-clamp TIRF imaging, the authors discovered new kinetic behaviors of CRAC channels and further identified a dye-blinking artifact with implications that are of importance for optical single-channel studies. Although the work is convincing and the findings have biological relevance, some quantitative aspects of the study can be strengthened by additional analysis.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Dhillon and Lewis present an optical approach to record single CRAC channel activity, overcoming the long-standing barrier imposed by the channel's extremely small unitary conductance. By fusing HaloTag to Orai1, labeling with JF646-BAPTA, and combining TIRF microscopy with whole-cell voltage clamp (Patch-TIRF), the authors achieve genuine single-channel resolution. A central contribution is the recognition that JF646-BAPTA undergoes reversible photophysical blinking that can be readily mistaken for gating events. The authors exploit the multi-dye labeling of hexameric Orai1, combined with voltage-clamped definition of open and closed fluorescence levels, to distinguish true gating transitions from blinks. The result is the first kinetic characterization of single CRAC channel openings activated by STIM1, reporting multiple open and closed states with durations from about 0.1 s to tens of seconds, predominantly high open probabilities ({greater than or equal to} 0.7), and an unexpected population of "silent" channels that co-localize with STIM1 but show no detectable activity over the observation window.

      Strengths:

      The work is technically rigorous, and the controls are appropriate. The integration of patch-clamp voltage control with TIRF imaging is a thoughtful methodological choice that defines the open- and closed-channel fluorescence reference levels with precision, providing a quantitative framework that the field has lacked. The use of the non-conducting Orai1-E106A mutant as a specificity control (Figure 4C) is exactly the right experiment, and the demonstration that JF646-BAPTA signals require Ca²⁺ flux through Orai1 itself anchors the entire approach. The identification and characterization of JF646-BAPTA blinking (Figures 2 and 3) is a significant contribution in its own right. The authors show clearly that the dye exhibits long-lived dark states and that transitions to zero fluorescence, rather than to a finite calcium-free baseline, are diagnostic of blinking rather than channel closure. This caveat has immediate implications for the interpretation of recent work using the same dye on other calcium-permeable channels, and will recalibrate the broader field of HaloTag-based single-channel optical recording. The kinetic analysis itself reveals something that was previously inaccessible: seconds-long open times, multi-state gating behavior, and a population of channels that co-localize with STIM1 yet remain electrically silent. These findings are physiologically meaningful and would not have been detectable by macroscopic electrophysiology. Overall, an outstanding study.

      Weaknesses:

      The manuscript would benefit from a small number of additional analyses of the existing data and modest refinements to the presentation. The discrete-channel interpretation of the intensity histogram in Figure 6C, the open probability distribution in Figure 8C, and the assignment of the "silent" channel population are all interesting and likely correct, but each rests on assumptions that the authors are well positioned to test directly using data already in hand. Brief additional discussion of the dynamic range of JF646-BAPTA in situ and of how the temporal resolution of the recordings shapes the inferred kinetic model would also help readers calibrate the findings.

      None of these points challenges the central claims of the paper, and none requires new experiments.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Dhillon and Lewis use the enhanced brightness of the new calcium indicator dye JF646-BAPTA attached to Orai1-bound HaloTag to identify single CRAC channel events detected as [Ca2+]i fluctuations rather than currents. This enables them to detect Orai1single channel kinetics of permeation, overcoming the currently unmeasurable single channel CRAC conductances (~ 20-40 fS). TIRF microscopy narrows the z-section and improves calcium event localization.

      JF646-BAPTA reversibly blinks between fluorescent and non-fluorescent states, complicating single-channel detection. Blinking occurs both in permeabilized cells with saturating Ca2+ and in intact cells at physiological [Ca2+]i. Using voltage clamp and TIRF imaging, CRAC gating events were distinguished from blinking by analyzing fluorescence responses to voltage changes.

      Hyperpolarization (-100 mV) increases fluorescence, indicating channel opening. Responses blocked by La3+ confirm specificity for Orai1, while minimum fluorescence at +30 mV corresponds to closed channels. Dynamic range and response kinetics help differentiate genuine gating from blinking artifacts. Long channel openings (seconds to tens of seconds) are observed, with most open times around 1.2 seconds. Longer openings (tens of seconds) are present but difficult to sample. Silent channels constitute 11% of puncta.

      The paper carefully examines a new method to sample CRAC kinetics, which should enable further mechanistic studies of STIM control of ORAI and modulation by other signaling components such as calcineurin. Development of bright nonblinking dyes or dyes whose blink rates are directly correlated with a calcium-binding site will enhance this route of investigation.

      Comments:

      This is an excellent methodological study, rigorous and thorough. I wondered whether La3+ alone could alter JF646-BAPTA blinking, but the authors show that JF646-BAPTA exhibits reversible transitions to a non-fluorescent state (blinking) under both Ca2+-saturated and physiological conditions, independent of channel activity or the presence of La3+.

      Strengths:

      A novel method providing additional tools to study store-depletion induced Ca currents mediated by Stim-Orai family members.

      Weaknesses:

      Limited by blinking dyes, the only ones currently sensitive enough to measure the calcium fluxes through single channels.

    4. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Previous work from the Cahalan lab used fluorescent Genetically Encoded Ca2+ Indicators (GECI), like GCaMP6f, tethered to the N- or C- terminus of Orai1 to monitor CRAC channel optical signals (Dynes et al., PNAS 2016 PMID: 26712003; J Gen Physiol 2020 PMID: 32589186; PNAS 2023 PMID: 37729200). In this study from the Lewis lab, the HaloTag system enables C-terminal labeling of Orai1 with a reactive JF646-BAPTA loaded into cells. The article raises two key issues with the Ca2+ indicator probe that may limit potential applications: probe loading conditions and blinking.

      Making Sense of Probe Probe-lems:

      This is a three-component system: the hexameric Orai1 channel, the Halo tag, and the Ca2+ indicator (four components if you count the GFP- or mCherry-tagged STIM1 in the endoplasmic reticulum membrane that activates the plasma membrane Orai1 channel). The Orai1 channel, tagged with the Halo protein, appears to function normally, judging from the characteristic inwardly rectifying Ca2+ current first observed in T lymphocytes (Lewis and Cahalan, Cell Regulation 1989 PMID: 2519622). One problem is to find a condition for indicator dye loading that results in complete and uniform labeling with the covalently linked JF646 indicator. JF646-BAPTA is a far-red fluorescent indicator related to BAPTA, with a Kd of ~150 nM. The esterified form can be loaded into cells, as is routinely done for Ca2+ indicators like fura-2 or fluo-4. Ideally, to monitor local Ca2+ in the cytosolic nanodomain of the Orai1 channel, the indicator should react with each and every Halo tag of the hexameric channel. The authors assessed published methods by varying the exposure time to the JF646-BAPTA-esterified probe. The authors then used green JF552 labeling following red JF646-BAPTA loading to assess the completeness of labeling. Even overnight incubation of Halo-tagged cells was not sufficient. The addition of Pluronic treatment for 1 hr improved labeling, and a standard condition was adopted. Under this condition, no additional labeling with the green JF552 was seen, implying complete labeling with JF646-BAPTA. However, even with complete labeling, several additional effects might reduce the effective signal-to-noise, which is lower in these studies than expected from in vitro measurements - for example, if the JF646-BAPTA molecules are incompletely de-esterified, or if there is quenching between the closely spaced probes attached to the channel hexamer.

      A second, more serious problem analyzed by this article is that the JF646-BAPTA probe blinks on and off spontaneously, making it problematic to monitor true single-channel events in which the channel open state is assessed by the fluorescent probe. The authors distinguish blinking from channel-gating events by carefully noting the residual level of fluorescence in the absence of Ca2+ influx. Blinking events occur in bursts that reduce fluorescence transiently to zero, whereas the closed channel labeled with JF646-BAPTA retains a low level of fluorescence (~20%). To circumvent the blinking issue, the authors use whole-cell patch recording, in conjunction with optical recording (Patch-TIRF). This allows channel-gating events to be identified by step-wise changes in fluorescence due to Ca2+ entry upon hyperpolarization to -100 mV, above a baseline level of fluorescence at +30 mV, which the authors presume represents the closed channel level of fluorescence. Irreversible photobleaching is an additional issue, limiting the recording times to less than 1 minute.

      Visualizing Orai1 Single-Channels:

      With the blinking problem circumvented, at least in part, the authors uncovered a wide variety of single-channel events. Cells with low expression levels of Orai1 revealed 0-3 active Orai1 channels per STIM1 puncta. The range of gating behavior at the single-channel level is one of the revelations in this study. A substantial fraction (11%) of puncta contained "silent" channels that did not open (detected by the non-zero level of baseline fluorescence for closed channels). At the other extreme, some channels remained open for tens of seconds. On average, channels that opened and closed stochastically exhibited a bi-exponential distribution of bright states (open channels), with a major component of fast events (92 ms) and a minor component of slower ones (1190 ms), as well a single-exponential distribution of dark states (closed channels), and open probabilities >0.7. Channel open/closed times and the high open probability of active Orai1 channels seen here reinforce previous work based on analysis of CRAC current fluctuations in whole-cell recording, and optical single-channel recording using a different genetically encoded Ca2+ indicator, G-GECO1, tethered to Orai1 (Prakriya and Lewis, J Gen Physiol 2006 PMID: 16940559; Dynes et al., PNAS 2016 PMID: 26712003).

      Expression levels for single-channel optical recording must be low; accordingly, puncta contained only 0-3 active channels. However, under conditions of high STIM1 and Orai1 expression, conventionally used to investigate channel function, as in Figure 1, cells with large currents express many thousands of active channels. The number of active channels per cell can be calculated by dividing the peak current (~-100 pA) by the voltage (-100 mV); this corresponds to a whole-cell conductance (G) of ~1 nS (conductance is measured in Siemens). The single channel conductance (gamma, too low to detect electrically) is estimated by noise analysis to be 20-40 fS. Thus, the number of active channels is given by G / gamma corresponding to a range of > 25,000 - 50,000 open channels per cell. Under similar conditions of high STIM1/Orai1 co-expression in HEK cells, individual Orai1 channels were visualized at high density in puncta by freeze-fracture electron microscopy (Perni et al., PNAS 2015 PMID: 26351694), revealing puncta packed with Orai1 particles corresponding to hundreds to >1000 channels per punctum. Measuring the center-to-center distances between particles in puncta revealed two peaks in a distribution of inter-particle lengths: 9 nm (consistent with the approximate width of the Orai1 channel hexamer) and 15 nm (possibly due to two adjacent Orai1 channels held together by intervening STIM1 dimers).

      Strengths:

      The authors do an excellent job of analyzing and discussing probe artifacts that can confound measurements at the single-channel level. On the technical side, we thank the authors for including a photon 'budget' for their imaging experiments by including: the conversion factor from camera intensity units (c.u.) to photoelectrons, cell background fluorescence levels, and nominally Ca2+ free single channel fluorescence levels. One parameter missing from the list is the size of the region of interest used for channel recording. We expect the intensity measurements provided in the channel traces to correspond to mean ROI intensity levels. Upon knowing the ROI size in pixels, the magnitude of fluorescent signals could then be calculated in photons. Taken together, these values will aid comparisons to previous work and help guide subsequent researchers doing their own optical recording.

      The most important finding of this study is the ability to analyze single-channel properties of active Orai1 channels using the HaloTag approach. By direct measurement, the authors confirm previous work that there are at least two open states and that the CRAC channel open probability is greater than 0.7.

      Like any good study, this work suggests opportunities for further work. At the chemistry level, one focus should be the development of new probes that don't blink and have lower affinity for Ca2+ to circumvent unwanted responses to global Ca2+ signaling. Far-red probes like JF646-BAPTA have the advantage of reduced scattering for in vivo imaging applications. At the level of channel molecular function, the results pave the way for unraveling mechanisms of channel gating, such as the requirement for STIM1 binding to activate sub-states of Orai1, and how the channel undergoes Ca2+-dependent inactivation. At the cellular physiology level, localized Ca2+ probes should help to clarify mechanisms that couple to changes in gene expression and reveal Ca2+ signaling in subcellular structures, including dendritic spines. As a nice proof of principle, Halo-tagging enabled Ca2+ signals to be measured in primary cilia (Deo et al., J Am Chem Soc 2019 PMID: 31430138). Future users of HaloTag and GECI Ca2+ indicators will need to confront the issues (probe-lems) at the single-channel level that are carefully raised and analyzed in this article.

      Weaknesses:

      The major confounding issue identified here is probe blinking. The authors find a way to circumvent the issue, but not to prevent it. Is it triggered by high laser light intensity? Do the six JF646-BAPTA molecules tagging a single Orai1 channel exhibit quenching or correlated blinking?

      Which type of probe is better for understanding more about the CRAC channel function? It is difficult to evaluate the pros and cons of the HaloTag and GECI approaches without a side-by-side comparison under identical conditions (except for the probe, obviously). With respect to Ca2+ affinities, higher Kd values (lower affinity) are probably better. JF646-BAPTA has a relatively low Kd value (150 nm) compared to Orai1-GCaMP6f (620 nM in situ), which may account for the saturation of optical signals at potentials more negative than -75 mV in this study. In contrast, saturation did not occur at negative potentials with Orai1-GCaMP6f in the study by Dynes et al., 2020. Lower affinity also makes the probe more resistant to unwanted signals from global increases in Ca2+. With respect to response kinetics, the finding that JF646-BAPTA has faster Ca2+ binding and unbinding kinetics than GECIs in Deo et al., 2019, occurred before publication of the jGCaMP8 series indicators in Y. Zhang et al., Nature 2023. Kinetic measurement of Orai1-jGCaMP8f fusions was reported in Dynes et al., PNAS 2023, and these measurements were performed using the same patch-TIRF approach as the present manuscript. While photoinactivation of jGCaMP8f fused to Orai1 interfered with kinetic measurements, Orai1-jGCaMP8f V203Y (a mutant with greatly reduced photoinactivation) exhibited a tauon of 10 ms and tauoff of 15 ms, roughly twice as fast as the values reported for Orai1-HaloTag-JF646-BAPTA in the present manuscript. The manuscript text comparing Halo-Tag kinetics with GECI should be revised accordingly.

      The authors suggest that single-channel events reported previously for Piezo1 channels (Bertaccini et al., Nat Comm 2025 PMID: 40593468) may be due to probe blinking. However, that study included two critical controls that demonstrate that signals reflect bona fide channel activity rather than blinking artifacts. Notably: (1) treatment with channel activator Yoda1 increased bright-state occupancy (Figure 3C - 3G), and (2) increasing channel open probability by administering a mechanical stimulus increased bright-state occupancy (Supplementary Figure 13).

    1. eLife Assessment

      This study presents a valuable finding that perception of a material's properties and hardness during brief touches can be altered using only vibrotactile feedback. The user studies show that vibration energy can influence judgements of material hardness, but the evidence is incomplete to support the broader claim made by the authors that spectral energy is the dominant feature governing hardness perception.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript deals with the ability to identify material hardness from the vibrations induced by single light taps on that surface. Psychophysical tests of human perception under varying conditions of modified fingertip compliance and/or externally imposed vibrations demonstrated that total spectral energy was the main determinant of perceived hardness and that perception of increased hardness can be induced by adding external vibration at the time of contact.

      Strengths:

      The experiments are well-reported and the data potentially useful, but much narrower than is implied by the (provisional) title and abstract. Their potential application to tactile perception in virtual reality seems promising, but the largely unexplored need for synchronization with physical contact and modulation with velocity and force of that contact seems likely to complicate proposed applications to prosthetics and telerobots.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The authors have confused discriminability with perception. The sense of touch is derived from several different types of mechanoreceptors and processed into several dimensions of haptic perception. The fact that subjects can rank surface material hardness correctly when requested to focus on that alone does not mean that they rely on total spectral energy normally or that total spectral energy is normally perceived as surface material hardness, as opposed to other aspects of materials, such as their surface texture. They have not considered the effects of more complex features of most surfaces, such as curvature, lamination or other exploratory movement strategies besides light taps.

      (2) Discussion section. Lines 262-264 are overstated. Dynamic spectral energy can be used to modify perceived hardness when exploratory movements are limited to taps that are unlikely to generate any other useful cues, such as skin deformation or proprioception. The authors have not explored what happens if there actually are conflicting cues in non-vibratory modalities. There are many different examples from sensory psychophysics of percepts that arise from taking the mean of conflicting cues (e.g. stereophonic sound localization) and others that arise from a dominant modality (e.g. self-motion perception from visual flow fields, vestibular signals and proprioception).

      The authors have ignored the substantial literature on artificial tactile sensors and their ability to identify texture, hardness and other haptic properties of materials. These have emphasized the importance of the many types and parameters of exploratory movements, which were loosely specified and not quantified in these studies.

      See:

      Li, Q., Kroemer, O., Su, Z., Veiga, F. F., Kaboli, M., & Ritter, H. J. (2020). A Review of Tactile Information: Perception and Action Through Touch. Ieee Transactions on Robotics, 36(6), 1619-1634. doi:10.1109/tro.2020.3003230.

      Fishel, J. A., & Loeb, G. E. (2012). Bayesian exploration for intelligent identification of textures. Frontiers in Neurorobotics, 6(4). doi:10.3389/fnbot.2012.00004

      Fishel, J. A., & Loeb, G. E. (2012). Sensing Tactile Microvibrations with the BioTac - Comparison with Human Sensitivity. Paper presented at the IEEE/RAS-EMBS International Conference on Biomedical Robotics and Biomechatronics, Rome.

      (3) Introduction (lines 23-31) and Discussion (lines 296-298). The notion that tactile receptors are "frequency tuned" is something of a straw man. Different receptor types are preferentially sensitive to different broad spectral bands, but it has long been known that they can be driven by larger stimuli outside those bands and that humans have very limited ability to discriminate actual frequency of tactile vibration (as opposed to auditory pitch), particularly for frequencies greater than the maximal one-to-one firing rate of neurons (~200-300 Hz). Conversely, fine onset timing of spikes in tactile afferents appears to be available from brief contact taps to identify features other than hardness; see:

      Johansson, R. S., & Flanagan, J. R. (2009). Coding and use of tactile signals from the fingertips in object manipulation tasks. Nature Reviews Neuroscience, 10, 345-359.

      Pruszynski, J. A., Flanagan, J. R., & Johansson, R. S. (2018). Fast and accurate edge orientation processing during object manipulation. eLife, 7, e31200.

      (4) Methods section. The Lofelt L5 actuator used to apply vibrations to the fingernail is rather large for use on multiple fingers of a haptic display. Do the authors know of any more compact technology with the requisite power and frequency response? One of the most useful contributions of this paper is to suggest that those details matter relatively little, which opens up more compact technologies such as piezoelectric actuators.

      (5) Methods section. It is good that headphones were used to block and mask audible tapping sounds, which are known to be capable of generating tactile illusions (Jousmäki, Veikko, and Riitta Hari. "Parchment-skin illusion: sound-biased touch." Current biology 8.6 (1998): R190-R191). But that suggests that hardness might be signalled by precisely timed acoustic stimuli, which would be much easier to deliver than fingertip vibration.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      This paper aimed to demonstrate that total spectral energy alone is sufficient to drive hardness perception and material identification. Through five user studies, they tested materials ranging in stiffness and with covered fingers to support their claim. Using a spectral energy compensation framework, they concluded that total spectral energy alone, regardless of frequency content, was sufficient to support material hardness percepts. However, it should be noted that all experiments used a tapping procedure, which is not the standard exploratory procedure when judging material hardness. A tapping method also selectively enhances vibratory feedback while limiting others. This fundamentally limits the scope of their work, and assessing their claim on generalizability would require further experimentation.

      Some additional clarification and extension on the experiments are also suggested:

      (1) According to Lederman and Klatzky (1987), pressure, and not tapping, is the exploratory procedure humans use to judge hardness. And during tapping instead (as used in all experiments), it is expected that the dominant cue available to the user comes from vibrations, as other mechanical cues, such as skin stretch, are limited. These vibrations could serve as a proxy for hardness, as claimed by the authors, but it is unclear if the participants are basing their evaluations on perceived hardness or vibration intensity. A more fundamental question that needs to be answered to support the paper's claim is whether a single tap is sufficient for conveying a material's hardness. To better support their claim, I recommend that the authors include an experiment using participants' bare fingers with materials of the same modulus but different damping coefficients. These materials would produce different vibration signals when tapped, but are equivalent in hardness.

      (2) The setup text for experiment 4 does not match the results. Results suggest that a finger covered with a bubble and touching a soft material was used (i.e. dual compliance), but the setup describes otherwise. The authors should clarify this and confirm that this is different from experiment 2.

      (3) As silicone, foam, and rubber can have very similar or different hardness depending on the specific material used, please report the hardness of each material tested (Shore or Young's modulus) to better understand the range of stiffness tested.

      (4) In the "materials grouping and selection" section, it states that a pilot study suggested hard materials tended to be perceptually similar while softer materials were easily distinguishable. However, this contradicts the results in experiment 1. The authors should expand on the details of the pilot study and address the inconsistency between its findings and experiment 1.

      (5) The methods section suggests that individual recordings for each material were performed before the experiment. Please clarify if this is correct, or if a single signal for each texture was used across all participants. Additionally, were the participants' tap pressure controlled during either the recordings or in the experiments? If not, how do the authors account for the difference in intensity that would be generated due to different tapping pressures across participants and trials?

    1. eLife Assessment

      This important study developed a novel theory to account for various aspects of dopamine signals, particularly dopamine ramps. The authors propose that dopamine reward prediction error (RPE) signals are generated by a dual-process learning system in which values inferred by a model-based system enter the RPE asymmetrically into the update target but not the prediction. The results are well-presented and convincing, and make a contribution that is of importance to the field. This work will be of interest to those studying dopamine specifically or brain learning computations and systems more broadly.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study develops a novel theory to account for various aspects of dopamine signals, particularly dopamine ramps. They propose that dopamine reward prediction error (RPE) signals are generated by a dual-process learning system in which values inferred by a model-based system enter the RPE asymmetrically into the update target but not the prediction (equation 6). The work offers specific, mechanistic explanations of Krausz et al. (2023) and Guru et al. (2020), Kim et al. (2020) by maintaining an RPE interpretation, and presents an alternative to the state-uncertainty account in Mikhael et al. (2022) that doesn't require the asymmetric uncertainty assumption Mikhael needs, using Campbell et al. (2025) in a thoughtful way. The asymmetric-RPE idea is clean and well presented. Overall, this study makes an important contribution to the field.

      Strengths:

      The theory is relatively simple and intuitive. It addresses a long-standing controversy or mystery in the field of dopamine.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The biggest outstanding question is what V_TD does - letting V_MB drive everything would seem to produce much of the same outcomes in the settings discussed here. The discussion suggests that in situations where there is little contribution of the model-based system, the backpropagating bump is a feature (e.g. Amo et al.). It would be interesting to see if this is a true outcome of the model, potentially by varying the arbitration parameter k. This is an interesting alternative account from eligibility trace explanations of the lack of backpropagating bump in some experimental settings.

      (2) The model-based accounts are quite simplistic, and this should probably be acknowledged - it does help delineate their contribution, but in the model, only the goal-reward value is updated; everything else is a known computation. Perhaps engage more deeply with Sagiv et al?

      (3) The application of Campbell et al. (2025) to push back on Mikhael (lines 253-259) is interesting: if striatum to VTA implements TD via synaptic delays such that V(s_t) is a delayed copy of V(s_{t+1}), then state uncertainty is necessarily shared between the two terms in the RPE, defeating Mikhael's required asymmetry.

      But the same circuit logic creates tension for the dual-process model. It seems they are proposing that the frontal cortex projects V_MB into VTA dopamine neurons (as proposed in 3.1 and the Discussion) and adds to the prediction error derived from the biphasic filtering of value. But the biphasic idea (and data of Campbell et al.) implies that the V(t+1) and -V(t) come from the same source and are proportional. Adding the V_MB term is akin to adding a positive bias, breaking the optimality of the TD error for predicting value and predicting over-learning of cached value. It is worth considering whether V_MB passes through a similar filter - I am not sure if it is fatal if V_MB contributes somewhat to the negative term of the update error.

      (4) A few places where the predicate of the conclusion needs more care. The "normative" framing throughout 3.2 and the Discussion is normative conditional on the architecture already including a separate cached system that needs to converge to the true value function and on a system in which the model based is learnt much faster - see comments about learning rate parameter later.

      (5) Kim et al. is cited heavily as a data source for Figure 4, but is never engaged with as a theoretical alternative, even though Kim et al. explicitly argued that an appropriate state representation makes standard TD compatible with ramps and the teleport responses. That is, Kim et al. is already a TD account of these phenomena, and doesn't require a second learning system. The introduction and Mikhael discussion treat the field as if the choice were between "dopamine = value" (Hamid, Howe, Mohebi) and dopamine = RPE-with-special-conditions (Mikhael, Kato-Morita), but Kim et al.'s framework is also dopamine = RPE. Two specific places this matters: (i) Figure 4 currently demonstrates that the dual-process model reproduces the Kim teleport results, but Kim et al.'s framework also reproduces them - the figure doesn't distinguish the two, and I am not sure the figure gives this message cleanly. (ii) Kim et al. report that ramps develop with training over days; the manuscript should address whether the dual-process model has an alternative explanation for this, especially given the contrast with the Guru result (ramps diminishing with training over a longer timescale).

      (6) The arbitration parameter k is fixed at 0.5 throughout, and the paper acknowledges this is for simplicity, but a supplementary panel sweeping k ∈ {0, 0.2, 0.5, 0.8, 1.0} on the key figures (Figure 1B convergence, Figure 2D ramp dynamics, Figure 3D Krausz updating) would be informative. At k = 0, the model reduces to standard TD; at k = 1, it's effectively V_MB-driven. I think these would be easy to add and help clarify the work this assumption is doing.

      (7) Learning-rate asymmetry needs justification. The story relies on α_MB >> α_TD throughout (α_MB = 0.50, α_TD = 0.01 - a 50× ratio). With α_MB = 0.5, a single rewarded trial moves R[goal] halfway to the new value, which would predict strong dependence of dopamine ramp amplitude on the previous trial's outcome. This is testable in existing data (Krausz et al. should have enough trials to fit the exponential decay constant for trial-history dependence; Guru's swap-session data likewise), and the paper would be strengthened by explicitly deriving and checking that prediction.

      (8) α_MB is dropped to 0.10 specifically for the Krausz simulation without justification in the text - Why? Either the value should be the same as elsewhere, or the paper should explain why Krausz's task requires slower MB learning. It would be good to check the robustness of the Krausz simulation - the test phase is a single set of three trials (t-2 = omission, t-1 = reward, then t = 50% rewarded) after training on a single set of 500 simulated trials (believe only one random seed is used - given the high alpha, varying this set of simulated trials seems important). Also, do they get the other result in Krausz (t-2 = reward, t-1 = omission, t = 50% rewarded)?

      (9) It might be possible to fit the alpha to the Guru and Krausz simulations - this might be informative to show the range over which it varies.

      (10) The Kato and Morita account is cited in the introduction but never really discussed again - it would be good to engage with this a bit more in the discussion. The rejection of the value-based accounts seems to rely primarily on Kim et al., where the value and TDRPE accounts differ, but this could be directly acknowledged, rather than absorbing credit for this into their model.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This paper offers a novel theoretical account of dopamine ramps. The key idea is that the reward prediction error (putatively signaled by dopamine) uses a partially model-based estimate for future value (the prediction target). Because the model-based value estimate emerges more rapidly than the model-free estimate, it inflates the RPE, and this inflation increases with reward proximity - hence ramps. The authors show that this account can explain many aspects of existing data on dopamine ramps across several different studies.

      Strengths:

      Overall, I liked this paper. The idea is interesting and plausible. The paper is well-written and clearly argued. The modeling has been done rigorously.

      Weaknesses:

      My major comments are: (1) it's not always clear which phenomena are uniquely well-explained by this new account vs. earlier accounts; and (2) the limitations of the account are not entirely transparent.

      (1) The paper models some of the studies reported by Kim et al (2020). As was already shown in that paper, a standard TD error could explain the results (although a major limitation of that treatment was that it did not model the recursive effect of RPEs on learning, as discussed in the Mikhael paper). It's not clear if there's additional explanatory value provided by this new account, though, of course, it's good to know that those results are captured by the new account. Likewise, Mikhael et al (2022) already offered an account of their data (somewhat more complex than the standard TD model). Again, it's not clear if there's additional explanatory value provided by the new account (and again, it's nice to see that the model can capture these results). Finally, I found myself wondering whether the Guru et al (2020) result couldn't be explained by a more standard TD model (assuming the value function is sufficiently convex). I don't think it's essential that the new account provides additional explanatory value in every case, but I think it's important to convey to readers what's new and what's not, as well as what aspects of the data require particular kinds of mechanisms to explain. It would be really helpful to see the predictions of alternative TD models in order to make this clearer.

      (2) The Mikhael model was motivated by the puzzle that ramping is observed in navigation tasks (with sensory cues) but typically not in classical conditioning tasks lacking sensory cues. The correction term, derived from normative considerations, explained this discrepancy. It's not clear to me if/how the new account can explain the discrepancy.

    4. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This work presents a new hypothesis for why dopamine signals have sometimes been observed to "ramp up" in spatial tasks as rodents approach a location associated with reward. In essence, the hypothesis is that value estimates (i.e., predictions about future rewards) from a model-based system, which may be able to more quickly form such estimates via an inference-like process, can be used to speed up the (relatively slow) learning of such estimates by a model-free system. This is suggested to occur by including the model-based estimate as part of the target towards which model-free estimates are updated in the course of temporal-difference (TD) learning. The early discrepancy between these estimates can be expected to give rise to systematic TD errors - putatively represented in dopaminergic activity - that give rise to dopamine ramps, which are expected to diminish over time as the estimates of both systems converge. The authors show that a model that implements this idea makes predictions about dopamine activity that are a good qualitative match to data from a number of recent experimental studies.

      Strengths:

      The work suggests a normative account for a phenomenon that has persistently troubled the canonical theory of dopamine function. The account is appealing in its elegance and simplicity, and the authors present compelling evidence that it can capture the empirical observations of key recent papers. Another strength of the account is that it readily suggests avenues for future theory development and experimental test, including what the 'best' target estimate should be at any given time, how rapidly one might expect ramps to develop or diminish, and the neural implementation of the proposed algorithm. This is likely to stimulate further theoretical and experimental work in the field.

      Weaknesses:

      One aspect of dopamine "ramps" that was troubling from a theoretical standpoint was their apparent persistence over time. Given the authors' prediction that these would disappear over time in a stable environment and the supporting evidence they cite (from Guru et al., 2000), the reader might be left confused about the state of evidence about whether dopamine ramps persist or not. Perhaps relatedly, the issue of how the activity of dopamine cells and dopamine release are related is not discussed, which may be relevant given that early studies (e.g., Howe et al., 2013) used voltammetry to measure extracellular dopamine concentrations.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This important study advances methods for improved analyses of wide-field optical imaging of mice expressing the genetically encoded calcium indicator GCaMP6f in different neocortical layers through registering to layer-specific cortical atlases and deconvolution to account for depth-dependent light scattering. However, the key underlying assumption of the work, that widefield signals originate in somata, and not in their superficial axonal and dendritic compartments, remains untested. Similarly, other signal sources like intrinsic optical signals and hemodynamic occlusion are incompletely considered. This study is likely to be of interest to neuroscientists carrying out wide-field optical imaging of the mouse neocortex.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors develop alignment methods for layer-specific widefield calcium imaging in the mouse cortex. Under the assumption that the majority of the widefield signal originates at the level of the cell bodies, different cortical layers will appear at different locations in a top-down view as a function of the curvature of the mouse cortex. The authors develop software tools to correct for this, as well as depth-dependent source blurring. Finally, they apply these tools to investigate functional connectivity differences of different neuron types and find only subtle differences.

      Strengths:

      The work is technically strong, the experiments well executed, and the presentation clear.

      Weaknesses:

      One concern I have is that the central assumption underlying the rationale for the depth correction, namely that the source of the majority of the widefield signal is the cell body, may be incorrect. Layer 5 neurons have a dense axo-dendritic plexus very close to the surface of the cortex. Given the attenuation length of visible light in tissue, as well as our own measurements (https://elifesciences.org/articles/71476#fig6s1), I suspect that the majority of the widefield calcium signal originates in the superficial axo-dendritic plexus. The authors acknowledge this possibility, but there are a few simple measurements they could make to address this more directly. If indeed, as I suspect, the majority of the calcium signal originates in the first 50 um of tissue (even when imaging layer 5 neurons), the curvature correction is counterproductive, of course. The authors could test the effect of adding brain slices of varying thicknesses on top of e.g., a layer 2/3 widefield recording. If the authors are correct, and most of the signal is from cell bodies, this should, at most, attenuate the layer 2/3 recording to the level of a layer 5 recording. Anecdotally, while doing the measurements for the figure referenced above, we have done this experiment with a 100 um thick slice, and no quantifiable calcium responses remained.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript by Lorenzo and colleagues presents wide-field cortical imaging data obtained from experiments conducted with three triple-transgenic mouse lines that specifically express the calcium sensor GCaMP6f in neurons of layers 2/3, 5, and 6 of the neocortex, respectively.

      It first includes a methodological contribution aimed at optimizing the analysis of the acquired signals, taking into account both the geometry of the neocortex and photon scattering in the cortical tissue, which affect fluorescence signals differentially depending upon their cortical depth of origin.

      In particular, they built upon the work previously published in eLife by Waters in 2024, which, based on a simulation of photon scattering using a Monte Carlo random-walk model, provided an estimate of the tissue volumes contributing to the fluorescence signals measured from the surface in several mouse lines expressing Gcamp in a layer-specific manner.

      The authors here additionally performed empirical measurements of the point spread function at different cortical depths to determine spatial kernels to be used to deconvolve wide-field imaging data acquired from their three-layer-specific GCaMP6f-expressing mouse lines. They assess the added value of this deconvolution approach based on recordings of the cortical responses evoked by whisker stimulation in the barrel cortex, using lightly anesthetized, layer 2/3 and layer 5 GCaMP6f-expressing mice.

      Altogether, these proposed methods aim at optimizing the registration of recorded signals on a common reference frame, allowing to compare cortical spatiotemporal dynamics recorded from distinct layer-specific GCaMP-expressing mice.

      The manuscript further contains a more neurophysiological contribution, directly utilizing the proposed methods to perform a comparative layer-specific functional connectivity analysis from data collected with the 3 different mouse lines, while the mice were head-fixed below the macroscope.

      Strengths:

      Wide-field 1-photon functional optical imaging, which allows recording cortical spatiotemporal dynamics over a large portion of the dorsal neocortex in mice, has become a tool of choice to study how activity over a wide range of cortical areas is orchestrated in various behavioral contexts. The ever-increasing availability of transgenic mice exhibiting pan-cortical calcium- or voltage-dependent sensors within specific neuronal populations is generating a growing interest in these approaches among the neuroscientific community.

      Nowadays, it is possible to image specifically the activity of excitatory neurons whose cell bodies are located in given cortical layers. However, interpreting fluorescence signals recorded from the surface while originating from deep layers proves difficult due to photon scattering, which reduces image definition, as previously established by Waters et al. (2024).

      The ability to correct for this blurring effect and to place the recorded signals within a common frame of reference is therefore essential not only for comparing activity across layers but also for integrating findings across studies, thereby advancing our collective understanding of neocortical physiology.

      In this sense, this work by Lorenzo and colleagues is definitely both timely and valuable.

      Overall, the manuscript is clearly structured and well-written, and the figures are of excellent graphic quality.

      The proposed approach to correct the blurring of the fluorescent signals, which increases with depth, by means of empirical measurements of point spread functions and deconvolution, seems pertinent and efficient.

      Finally, the authors have collected evoked and spontaneous dynamics of calcium signals from 3 different layer-specific GCaMP mice, which in itself represents a substantial experimental effort, not least because of the need to generate the animals. Out of these data, they provide a unique comparative analysis of layer-specific functional connectivity.

      Weaknesses:

      To fully benefit a large community, some aspects of the proposed methodological advances need to be more detailed in the manuscript and potentially refined. For instance, it is very difficult to evaluate, given the tiny confocal images provided in Figure 1, the potential contribution of GCaMP signal from apical dendrites of layer V neurons in Rbp4-GCaMP6f mice. It is also difficult for the reader to assess the added value of the layer-specific reference maps, given that functional image registration relies on nonlinear transformations and limited detail is provided regarding the procedure used to realign the functional data with these maps (lines 465-467). It is not really clear how the illustrated "composite maps" and the "five functional spots" used for the registration are computed. In addition, one could question the choice of the large time windows used to generate these composite maps/functional landmarks. Since the early component of the evoked responses is more likely to reflect the location of the initial thalamocortical inputs, restricting the analysis to the early phase of the responses might improve the accuracy of primary cortical area identification. This concern regarding the time window used to define specific cortical representation areas may also be relevant to Figure 4, which illustrates the results of the proposed deconvolution approach used to correct for photon scattering (although the time windows used for these analyses are not specified).

      With regard to Figure 4, the reader might wonder why the results are not illustrated similarly for the layer 6 mice. It would therefore be useful to clearly indicate whether these data are not shown because they were not collected, or because it proved impossible to identify single whisker representations, despite the proposed deconvolution procedure.

      Regarding the analysis of layer specificity in terms of functional connectivity, the authors extensively use the term "resting-state" to describe the behavioral context of data collection, given that the animals were not engaged in a goal-directed task. However, because the mice were experiencing head fixation beneath a functional epifluorescence macroscope for only the second time, it is questionable whether this state can truly be classified as "resting." As indicated by the global quantification of body movements, the animals most likely alternated between quiet wakefulness and more active phases.

      To allow the reader to accurately interpret the reported functional connectivity differences, the authors should at least provide a quantification of the time animals spent in the quiet versus active states, and assess whether these proportions were comparable between the different mouse lines. Another way to address this issue would be to perform functional connectivity analyses after splitting the data according to these two states based on body movement quantification, although it is difficult to assess the feasibility of this approach without knowing the temporal distribution of these states within the dataset.

      This seems particularly important since differences in neural cross-regional correlation patterns have been linked to arousal levels, with a comparable optical imaging approach, by Shahsavarani and colleagues (Cell Reports, 2023), who compared initial and prolonged resting periods. In addition, the authors report here that layer differences in functional connectivity are more pronounced in regions associated with the default mode network, whose activity is likely to differ between quiet and active wakefulness.

      Finally, given the richness of the dataset, it would be very interesting to assess how the proposed deconvolution approach affects PCA-ICA-based functional parcellation of spontaneous cortical activity (Reidl et al., NeuroImage, 2007; Makino et al., Neuron, 2017) and whether it enables cross-layer comparisons of independent cortical modules. Such supplementary analyses would substantially increase the impact of this work.

    4. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      This paper provides valuable technical and theoretical validation of layer-specific wide-field imaging. Here, the authors use specific transgenic lines that provide layer-specific cell body expression (and some superficial dendrites). They then use deconvolution approaches and potentially more accurate atlases based on depth-dependent features to register and resolve what are layer-specific functional GCaMP signals.

      In general, the work is extremely well done, and I have little specific criticism. I think the author should be commended for their creative solutions, including using the light source at different depths to measure apparent scattering and blurring, allowing them to incorporate the deconvolution approach.

      Throughout the manuscript, they refer to the signals as layer-specific and, for the most part, conclude similar functional connectivity as in different layers with some noted exceptions. This is an outstanding resource for the community.

      Major Comment:

      I think they should add some caveats that the lines that they employ do contain dendrites that are in more superficial cortices. Could they make some estimates of signal contribution from these, say, layer 6 neuron superficial dendrites versus the deep somata? This clarification should be included in the abstract; maybe they could call these apparent somatic signals? Another way of doing this would be a Soma-targeted deep indicator, but this is probably beyond the scope of the paper.

      Alternatively, how much of the layer 5 signal would be expected to be recovered?

    1. eLife Assessment

      This study characterizes the heterogeneity and developmental origins of macrophages in the thymus and offers tantalizing evidence of their potential involvement in the first step of T cell selection. The macrophage characterisation is interesting, although the evidence for the specific involvement of macrophages in beta-selection is incomplete, as alternative explanations have not been ruled out. These results provide an important advance that further our understanding of thymus biology, especially in view of the contribution of heterogenous thymic macrophage subpopulations.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The current manuscript characterizes in detail the macrophages in the thymus. The authors identify two distinct populations of thymic macrophages and describe their surface marker expression and transcriptional signatures. They also explore their ontology and kinetics of settling and persistence in the thymus and find that the TIMD4+ macrophages are derived from embryonic progenitors and self-maintain in the thymus, while the TIMD4- macrophages are derived from monocytes. Most importantly, the authors test the functional importance of thymic macrophages for T cell development using an in vitro depletion system, from which they conclude that macrophages are important for one of the earliest selection steps in T cell development - the beta selection.

      Strengths:

      The authors use state-of-the-art techniques, such as multiple genetically modified mice, multi-color flow cytometry, single-cell RNA sequencing, genetic fate mapping, and fetal thymic organ culture (FTOC) combined with depletion. Their work is in good agreement with prior published studies on the subject, such as Tacke et al. (PMID: 26091486) and Zhou et al. (PMID: 36449334). In addition to reproducing prior knowledge, the authors uncover novel and unexpected facets of thymic macrophage biology, such as their SpiC independence and the fact that TIMD4- thymic macrophages depend on CCR2 (Tacke et al. have shown that the overall thymic macrophage compartment is normal in CCR2-/- mice). Most surprisingly, the authors claim that thymic macrophages control an early checkpoint in T cell development, the beta selection. This has not been reported before, as beta selection is usually considered a cell-autonomous process in thymocytes that does not require input from other cells.

      Weaknesses:

      The thymic macrophage depletion experiments are not well controlled, and the authors' interpretation of the results is a stretch. First, the treatment depletes other cell types, most notably dendritic cells (DCs), which have well-known roles in thymic selection (though not specifically in beta selection). The authors' reasoning that macrophages are abundant in the cortex, where beta selection occurs, while DCs are enriched in the medulla, seems questionable, as the embryonic thymus typically lacks (or has very small) medulla. A second salient point is that the authors haven't ruled out direct toxicity of the dimerizer drug AP20187 on thymocytes (specifically DN cells) in MAFIA mice.

      Altogether, this is a solid manuscript that largely confirms the previously established ontogeny and heterogeneity of thymic macrophages. However, the participation of thymic macrophages in beta selection needs stronger evidence.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      This manuscript from Zuniga-Pflucker laboratory describes that thymic macrophages are heterogeneous in flow cytometric and transcriptomic profiles, containing two major populations characterized by TIMD4 and CX3CR1 expression. These macrophage populations are both parenchymal in the thymus but are unequal in developmental ontogeny, Flt3 expression history, and CCR2 dependency. The manuscript further reports the interesting findings that the depletion of thymic macrophages impairs thymocyte development at the DN3 beta-selection checkpoint. These results provide an important advance for further understanding of thymus biology, especially in view of the contribution of heterogenous thymic macrophage subpopulations.

      However, Zhou et al. previously reported essentially similar heterogeneity in thymic macrophages. It was demonstrated that TIMD4+ macrophages and CX3CR1+ macrophages have distinct origins and are different in developmental characteristics (27). The authors should better clarify what was previously demonstrated and what is newly described in this study. Zhou, et al. also demonstrated that TIMD4+ macrophages are localized in the cortex whereas CX3CR1+ macrophages distribute in the medullary region. Whether or not these previous findings are reproduced and supported in the present study is important in view of the new finding that thymic macrophages are important for beta-selection, which is presumed to occur in the thymic cortex. The authors may be able to suggest more strongly that TIMD4+ macrophages regulate beta-selection in the thymic cortex through phagocytic efferocytosis. (Indeed, the Figure 1 legend states that frozen thymic sections were used for immunofluorescent staining to identify the localization of thymic macrophages, without showing the results.)

    1. eLife Assessment

      On the basis of convincing computational, biophysical, and cell-based evidence, this study reports the important finding that the dynamin inhibitor Dyngo-4a broadly affects lipid packing and plasma membrane dynamics, independently of its action on dynamin. The evidence, obtained by a wide range of methods including a newly developed assay visualizing internalized caveolae, provides solid support for the authors' main claim on the role of lipid packing in caveolae internalization. This work will be of significant interest to cell biologists, biophysicists, and chemists interested in membrane remodeling and drug-membrane interactions.

      [Editors' note: this paper was reviewed by Review Commons.]

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors use Dyngo-4a, a known Dynamin inhibitor to test its influence on caveolar assembly and surface mobility. They investigate whether it incorporates into membranes with Quartz-Crystal Microbalance, they investigate how it is organized in membranes using simulations. Finally, they use lipid-packing sensitive dyes to investigate lipid packing in the presence of Dyngo-4a, membrane stiffness using AFM and membrane undulation using fluorescence microscopy. They also use a measure they call "caveola duration time" to claim that something happens to caveolae after Dyngo-4a addition and using this parameter, they do indeed see an increase in it in response to Dyngo-4a, which is reduced back to the baseline after addition of cholesterol.

      Overall, the authors claim: 1) Dyngo-4a inserts into the membrane and this 2) results in "a dramatic dynamin-independent inhibition of caveola scission". 3) Dyngo-4a was inserted and positioned at the level of cholesterol in the bilayer and 4) Dyngo-4a-treatment resulted in decreased lipid packing in the outer leaflet of the plasma membrane 5) but Dyngo-4a did not affect caveola morphology, caveolae-associated proteins, or the overall membrane stiffness 6) acute addition of cholesterol counteracts the block in caveola scission caused by Dyngo-4a.

      Overall, in this reviewers opinion, after the additional experiments in the review process, all claims are now well-supported by the presented data from electron and live cell microscopy, QCM-D and AFM.

      Significance:

      A number of small molecule inhibitors for the GTPase dynamics exist, that are commonly used tools in the investigation of endocytosis. This goes as far that the use of some of these inhibitors alone is considered in some publications as sufficient to declare a process to be dynamin-dependent. However, this is not always correct, as there are considerable off-target effects, including the inhibition of caveolar internalization by a dynamin-independent mechanism. This is important, as for example the influence of dynamin small molecule inhibitors on chemotherapy resistance is currently investigated (see for example Tremblay et al., Nature Communications, 2020).

      The investigation of the true effect of small molecules discovered as and used as specific inhibitors and their offside effects is extremely important and this reviewer applauds the effort. It is important that inhibitors are not used alone, but other means of targeting a mechanism are exploited as well in functional studies. The audience here thus is besides membrane biophysicists interested in the immediate effect of the small molecule Dyngo-4a also cell biologists and everyone using dynamic inhibitors to investigate cellular function.

      Comments on revised version.

      Overall, in this reviewer's opinion, after the additional experiments in the review process, all claims are now well-supported by the presented data from electron and live cell microscopy, QCM-D and AFM.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, the authors probe the mechanisms by which Dyngo-4a, a dynamin inhibitor used to block endocytosis, impact caveolae dynamics. They provide compelling evidence that Dyngo-4a inhibits caveolae dynamics and endocytosis (as well as several other aspects of plasma membrane dynamics) by a dynamin-independent mechanism. They also provide strong computational and experimental data showing that Dyngo-4a inserts into membranes and decreases lipid packing in the outer leaflet of the plasma membrane. Finally, they demonstrate that the addition of excess cholesterol to cells reverses the effects of Dyngo-4a on caveolae dynamics, presumably by reversing lipid packing defects. Based on these findings they conclude that lipid packing regulates caveolae dynamics and endocytosis in a cholesterol-dependent manner.

      This work should be of value to cell biologists interested in plasma membrane remodeling and membrane trafficking, biophysicists that study small molecule/membrane interactions and membrane remodeling processes, and chemists interested in designing drugs to target membrane trafficking machinery and pathways.

      Strengths and weaknesses:

      This work addresses the important topic of how a widely used endocytic inhibitor actually works. In the process of addressing this question, the authors uncover unexpected connections between how lipids are packed in cell membranes and membrane dynamics. The methods are appropriate and many of the claims made in this work are well supported by data.

      The authors have also been responsive to comments raised during review by including additional experimental evidence that Dyngo-4a inhibits caveolae endocytosis as well as documenting the effects of Dyngo-4a on caveolae morphology.

      The work also raises some interesting questions for the future. As one example, the authors note that in addition to inhibiting caveolar dynamics, Dyngo-4a inhibits generalized plasma membrane mobility, transferrin uptake, and fusion of fusogenic liposomes to the plasma membrane. More work will be required to determine whether these events are mediated by a common, lipid packing-dependent mechanism.

    4. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      eLife Assessment:

      This study reports the important finding that the dynamin inhibitor Dyngo-4a broadly affects lipid packing and plasma membrane dynamics, independently of its action on dynamin. While solid computational, biophysical, and cell-based evidence supports this conclusion, there is incomplete support for the authors' main claim on the role of lipid packing in caveolae internalization, as the causal relationship remains unclear and direct analyses are lacking. With stronger evidence, this work would be of significant interest to cell biologists, biophysicists, and chemists interested in membrane remodeling and drug-membrane interactions.

      We are thankful for the very positive feedback and enthusiasm for our work and sincerely thank all the reviewers for their time, their constructive criticism and valuable comments. Based on this, we have revised our manuscript as detailed below in the point-by-point response where the responses to reviewers’ comments are indicated in blue font. Text edits in the revised manuscript are indicated in red font.

      We agree that providing sufficient evidence for inhibition of caveolae endocytosis by Dyngo-4a is critical and have therefore worked hard on identifying suitable assays that enable conclusive experiments as described below. We have now added a new figure with data that we think firmly supports our statement that caveolae internalization is restricted by Dyngo-4a. Additionally, EM images and quantifications of caveola morphology with or without treatment has been added within the same figure. Taken together, we believe that we have provided strong data to support this main claim and challenged this hypothesis as far as current methodology allows. Therefore, we hope that the revised manuscript warrants a new eLife assessment and we would like this to be the version of accord for the publication in eLife.

      Point-by-point response to reviewers comments

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      The authors use Dyngo-4a, a known Dynamin inhibitor to test its influence on caveolar assembly and surface mobility. They investigate whether it incorporates into membranes with Quartz-Crystal Microbalance, they investigate how it is organized in membranes using simulations. Finally, they use lipid-packing sensitive dyes to investigate lipid packing in the presence of Dyngo-4a, membrane stiffness using AFM and membrane undulation using fluorescence microscopy. They also use a measure they call "caveola duration time" to claim that something happens to caveolae after Dyngo-4a addition and using this parameter, they do indeed see an increase in it in response to Dyngo-4a, which is reduced back to the baseline after addition of cholesterol. 

      Overall, the authors claim: 1) Dyngo-4a inserts into the membrane and this 2) results in "a dramatic dynamin-independent inhibition of caveola scission". 3) Dyngo-4a was inserted and positioned at the level of cholesterol in the bilayer and 4) Dyngo-4a-treatment resulted in decreased lipid packing in the outer leaflet of the plasma membrane 5) but Dyngo-4a did not affect caveola morphology, caveolae-associated proteins, or the overall membrane stiffness 6) acute addition of cholesterol counteracts the block in caveola scission caused by Dyngo-4a. 

      Overall, in this reviewers opinion, claims 1, 3, 4, 5 are well-supported by the presented data from electron and live cell microscopy, QCM-D and AFM.

      We thank the reviewer for these positive and encouraging words and believe that the new experiments added to the manuscript has provided strong evidence that caveola internalization is greatly inhibited by Dyngo-4a (see below).

      However, there is no convincing assay for caveolar endocytosis presented besides the "caveola duration" which although unclearly described seems to be the time it takes in imaging until a caveolae is not picked up by the tracking software anymore in TIRF microscopy. Since the main claim of the paper is a mechanism of caveolar endocytosis being blocked by Dyngo-4a, a true caveolar internalization assay is required to make this claim. This means either the intracellular detection of not surface connected caveolar cargo or the quantification of caveolar movement from TIRF into epifluorescence detection in the fluorescence microscope. Otherwise, the authors could remove the claim and just claim that caveolar mobility is influenced.

      We thank the reviewer and agree that this is a very important point to verify. Therefore, we have worked hard to quantify the endocytosis of caveolae in thin sections of MEF cells using transmission electron microscopy. By incubating cells with externally added HRP for two-minutes followed by washing, vesicles internalized during this period can be contrasted and distinguished from surface associated vesicles. Sections were quantified by counting both surface-associated and internalized caveolae and CCVs (see figure below). Surface associated caveolae and CCVs can be distinguished based on size and shape for CCV the presence of a coat, but the number of vesicles per image is very low because a cross section has to go right through the vesicle. Furthermore, although internalized caveolae and CCVs can be differentiated by size, it is much harder to separate these from other vesicles, tubules and tubular endosomes positive for HRP.  We detect an approximate 50% reduction in internalized caveolae and CCVs (ie. containing the internalized marker) in Dyngo-4a cells, which confirms that internalization is impaired following Dyngo-4a treatment. Yet, CCV endocytosis was simultaneously confirmed by Tfn uptake assay to be reduced by a greater extent, approximately 95%. We believe that this discrepancy in numbers is due to the low frequency of counted vesicles per section and the difficulties in distinguishing different internalized vesicles and endosomal tubules making a robust quantification of endocytic events difficult. It is also important to note that the EM assay relies on structural criteria to identify only the budded CCVs and caveolae containing the internalized marker, in transit to the early endosome. Other labeled structures are excluded. In contrast, uptake of Tfn into endosomes would also be measured by the light microscopy assay. Therefore, we have chosen not to include these data in the revised manuscript.

      Author response image 1

      Instead, we have developed a new assay in which we can quantify internalization in whole cells and clearly separate internalized caveolae from those that are surface associated or have fused with endosomal structures. For this we use the HeLa FlpIn Cav1-GFP cells which are induced to express Cav1-GFP at endogenous levels to label caveolae. The cells are incubated for five minutes with fluorescent CTxB known to be internalized by caveolae (but also via other mechanisms). To be able to separate internalized caveolae from early endosomes, cells were fixed and labelled with antibodies against the marker EEA1.  Cells were analyzed by fluorescence microscopy and confocal z-stacks of entire cells were recorded. The data was analyzed by software to identify only the caveolae that were positive for CTxB but negative for EEA1. The results from quantification showed a very clear inhibition in the number of internalized caveolae in Dyngo-4a treated cells in comparison to control cells. These data have been included in the manuscript as an important new figure 2 together with TEM data where we quantify the morphology of surface associated caveolae with or without Dyngo-4a treatment. We have also extensively edited the text in the results section to describe these new data and to convey that Dyngo-4a indeed affects internalization. We are very happy to have established means to address this important point by extending the current methodology and tools. Together with the TIRF data and FRAP data we believe that we have provided strong data for this claim and challenged our hypothesis as far as current methodology allows.

      Significance: 

      A number of small molecule inhibitors for the GTPase dynamics exist, that are commonly used tools in the investigation of endocytosis. This goes as far that the use of some of these inhibitors alone is considered in some publications as sufficient to declare a process to be dynamin-dependent. However, this is not correct, as there are considerable off-target effects, including the inhibition of caveolar internalization by a dynamin-independent mechanism. This is important, as for example the influence of dynamin small molecule inhibitors on chemotherapy resistance is currently investigated (see for example Tremblay et al., Nature Communications, 2020). The investigation of the true effect of small molecules discovered as and used as specific inhibitors and their offside effects is extremely important and this reviewer applauds the effort. It is important that inhibitors are not used alone, but other means of targeting a mechanism are exploited as well in functional studies. The audience here thus is besides membrane biophysicists interested in the immediate effect of the small molecule Dyngo-4a also cell biologists and everyone using dynamic inhibitors to investigate cellular function. 

      Thank you for the comments. We very much appreciate the interest and enthusiasm of the reviewer for our work. This has inspired and supported us to perform additional work for the revision of our manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review): 

      In this manuscript, the authors probe the mechanisms by which Dyngo-4a, a dynamin inhibitor used to block endocytosis, disrupts caveolae dynamics. They provide compelling evidence that Dyngo-4a inhibits caveolae dynamics and endocytosis (as well as several other aspects of plasma membrane dynamics) by a dynamin-independent mechanism. They also provide strong computational and experimental data showing that Dyngo-4a inserts into membranes and decreases lipid packing in the outer leaflet of the plasma membrane. Finally, they demonstrate that the addition of excess cholesterol to cells reverses the effects of Dyngo-4a on caveolae dynamics, presumably by reversing lipid packing defects. Based on these findings they conclude that lipid packing regulates caveolae dynamics and endocytosis in a cholesterol-dependent manner. 

      This work should be of value to cell biologists interested in plasma membrane remodeling and membrane trafficking, biophysicists that study small molecule/membrane interactions and membrane remodeling processes, and chemists interested in designing drugs to target membrane trafficking machinery and pathways. 

      This work addresses the important topic of how a widely used endocytic inhibitor actually works. In the process of addressing this question, the authors uncover unexpected connections between how lipids are packed in cell membranes and membrane dynamics. The methods are appropriate and many of the claims made in this work are well supported by data.

      We very much appreciate the thorough review and very positive feedback constructive critique and thank the reviewer for the time spent on our manuscript.

      Weaknesses: 

      I appreciate that the manuscript has already gone through one round of revisions and that many of the concerns from the previous reviewers appear to have been addressed. However, as an interested reader, I would like to offer several additional comments for the authors to consider. 

      (1) It is not clear based on the data presented whether the effects of Dyngo-4a on lipid packing give rise to defects in caveolae dynamics or if these effects are merely correlated. To show this more definitively, one might expect additional experimental approaches to be used to perturb lipid packing. I appreciate this is probably beyond the scope of the current study. However, it seems important for the manuscript to be clear about how far this interpretation can be pushed in the absence of additional independent lines of evidence.

      We are very proud of the direct experimental support of the effect on lipid packing that we have performed using incorporation of extra cholesterol to the membrane which supports these effects are not merely correlated. Unfortunately, specifically perturbing lipid packing in other ways and conclusively interpreting such data is not uncomplicated. We agree that data and conclusions should be further challenged but we believe that this goes beyond the scope of this manuscript.

      (2) On a related note, it is not obvious how changes in lipid packing in the outer leaflet could impact caveolae dynamics. It would be helpful to include a cartoon illustrating how this might work.

      Thank you for pointing out this important aspect. We have elaborated on this within the discussion and referred to our recently published perspective article in Nature Cell Biology ('A lipid-centric view of endocytosis by caveolae' Parton, Kozlov and Lundmark DOI: 10.1038/s41556-026-01945-5) where this topic is extensively discussed. In short, insertion of the 8S disc in the inner leaflet of the PM replaces approximately 250 lipids and spans the entire thickness of the leaflet. The insertion of the flat, hydrophobic phase of the 8S disc, that faces the outer leaflet, results in a differential contact energy favoring the uneven packing of lipids and preferred accumulation of cholesterol in the PM of mammalian cells. Increased cholesterol content in the PM leads to more tilt and splay and hence curvature generation and, if not constrained by EHD2, scission. Thus, the distinct lipid packing of cholesterol and sphingomyelin opposite the Cav1 complex is key to drive curvature generation and internalization of caveolae.

      We agree that a schematic figure could be nice to illustrate how packing affects caveolae internalization. However, we realized that providing a comprehensible concept this would require an extensive figure with vast discussions in the text. Therefore, we have chosen not to include this here, but refer to the figures in Parton et al. Nature Cell Biology DOI: 10.1038/s41556-026-01945-5

      (3) The authors note that Dyngo-4a inhibits several dynamic processes including generalized plasma membrane mobility (Fig 4A&B), transferrin uptake (Fig S4C), and fusion of fusogenic liposomes (Fig S4G). This clearly indicates there is a major disruption of the plasma membrane going on here that is not limited to caveolae. They go on to show that the addition of cholesterol reverses the effects of Dyngo-4a on caveolae dynamics. However, they do not discuss whether adding back cholesterol has similar effects on plasma membrane mobility and transferrin uptake. This information could help to further pinpoint whether the mechanisms of action are shared, and if the role of cholesterol is more general in controlling these events or is instead specific to caveolae. 

      Yes, this is correct, and we agree that this important finding leads to many follow up questions on the mechanism of action of Dyngo-4a on cellular processes. Yet, to dissect the mechanism for all these processes goes way beyond the scope and our resources for this manuscript.

      (4) In Fig 4C, the morphology of the neck region of the Dyngo-4a treated caveolae structure appears to be "pinched" compared to the control. I appreciate that more EM studies are underway. It would be useful to specifically compare the morphology of the caveolae as part of those studies.

      Thanks, this is a relevant and interesting question. In the revised manuscript, we have therefore performed and included extra quantitative EM data addressing the morphology of caveolae. Based on this we conclude that there is no statistically significant difference in the height, width or neck diameter of caveolae treated with Dyngo-4a in comparison to control cells. When analyzing the ratio of height, width and neck diameter of each caveolae, there is a trend in that neck diameter is increased in Dyngo-4a-treated cells. These data have been included in the new figure 2 A-B and discussed in the text.

      (5) In Line 91, a statement is made that 8S complex formation requires cholesterol. This is debatable, as they appear to form in E. coli in the absence of cholesterol (reference 14).

      Thank you, we have clarified that this statement is referring to mammalian cells.

      Some minor spelling errors include: 

      Line 66 generrating

      Line 182 signigicantly 

      Line 197 treatmend 

      Line 347 succefully 

      These errors have been corrected

    1. eLife Assessment

      This study presents analyses of single neuron activity in the subthalamic nucleus (STN) of monkeys performing a decision-making task that manipulates both perceptual evidence and reward. The study shows convincing evidence of distinct subpopulations of neurons in STN that differ in their representations of key quantities related to decision formation. These findings reveal important functional heterogeneity within the STN that helps provide new insights into its contributions to decision processing.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      [Editors' note: this version has been assessed by the Reviewing Editor without further input from the original reviewers. The authors have addressed the comments raised in the previous round of review.]

      Summary:

      This manuscript offers a careful and technically impressive dissection of how subpopulations within the subthalamic nucleus (STN) support reward-biased perceptual decision-making. The authors recorded STN neurons in monkeys performing an asymmetric-reward visual motion discrimination task, then combined single-unit analyses, regression modeling, and drift-diffusion model (DDM) fitting to identify functionally distinct neuronal clusters. Each subpopulation shows unique relationships to computational decision variables - evidence accumulation rate, decision bound, and non-decision time - as well as to post-decision evaluative signals including choice accuracy and reward expectation. The revised manuscript substantially strengthens the original submission by improving both the objectivity of neuron selection and the robustness of the clustering solution.

      Strengths:

      The asymmetric-reward paradigm cleanly separates perceptual and motivational contributions to STN activity, allowing the authors to characterize how neurons blend these distinct sources of information. The dataset is extensive and well-controlled, and the behavioral and neural analyses are tightly integrated. Relating cluster-specific activity to DDM parameters provides an interpretable computational link between population signals and behavior. The clustering solution is now validated across two algorithms, two monkeys, and subsets of trials - establishing that the three-cluster structure is robust. The new Figure 9 offers a conceptually useful, if necessarily speculative, synthesis connecting the identified subpopulations to distinct basal-ganglia pathways (hyperdirect versus indirect). The new Figure 8 documenting the anatomical intermingling of subpopulations is also important, as it directly informs the interpretation of prior and future STN stimulation studies.

      Weaknesses:

      The inferred relationships between neural clusters and DDM parameters remain correlational - the authors now appropriately flag this throughout, and the causal inference gap is acknowledged in the Discussion with concrete proposals for future targeted perturbation strategies. While a generative multi-cluster model would further strengthen mechanistic interpretation, the conceptual framework in Figure 9 provides a reasonable intermediate step given the scope of the study and the absence of simultaneous population recordings, which preclude direct inter-cluster covariation analyses. These remaining limitations are inherent to the experimental design rather than analytical oversights.

      Comments on the previous version:

      The authors have responded thoroughly and constructively to all of my concerns. The revised clustering pipeline - incorporating finer temporal resolution, objective neuron selection, outlier removal, a second clustering algorithm, cross-monkey validation (Rand indices of 0.94 and 1.0 for the two monkeys), and trial-subset stability analysis - substantially increases confidence in the three-cluster solution. The correlational nature of the DDM-activity relationships is now clearly stated, and the Discussion appropriately contextualizes the causal inference gap while suggesting feasible future directions. The new Figure 9 provides the conceptual synthesis I had hoped for, within the realistic scope of the present study. I am satisfied with the authors' responses and have no further requests.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      This study uses monkey single-unit recordings to examine the role of the STN in combining noisy sensory information with reward bias during decision-making between saccade directions. Using multiple linear regressions and clustering approaches, the authors overall show that a highly heterogeneous activity in the STN reflects almost all aspects of the task, including choice direction, stimulus coherence, reward context and expectation, choice evaluation, and their interactions. The authors report in particular how three classes of neurons map to different decision processes evaluated via the fitting of a drift-diffusion model. Overall, the study provides evidence for functionally diverse and anatomically intermingled populations of STN neurons, supporting multiple roles in perceptual and reward-based decision-making.

      This study follows up on work conducted in previous years by the same team and complements it. Extracellular recordings in monkeys trained to perform a complex decision-making task remain a remarkable achievement, particularly in brain structures that are difficult to target, such as the sub-thalamic nucleus. The authors conducted numerous analyses of STN activities, using sophisticated statistical approaches and functional computational modeling.

    4. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      One criticism that I would still make in the revised version of the paper concerns the description of the behavior of the two monkeys which is still minimal, while acknowledging differences in their choice and RT performance that reflect "individual differences in sensitivity to motion stimulus and a common heuristic-based satisficing strategy". This sentence is not clear to me. Moreover, the potential consequences of these differences on neuronal activity are only considered in the cluster analysis done for each of the two animals separately and for which it turns out there is no notable difference.

      We have revised the text to emphasize the key, common feature of their behavior and refer readers interested in variability across sessions and individuals to our previous study: “Both monkeys showed consistent biases toward the large-reward choice (Figure 1B, C). Details of their performance, including variations across sessions and individuals, have been reported in a previous study (Fan et al., 2018).”

      Given that both monkeys’ choices and RT showed clear and consistent coherence and reward dependencies, and that the clustering analysis were consistent across the two monkeys, we believe that our analyses presented here are appropriate. Future work is needed to examine if and how STN contributes to more nuanced aspects of behavioral variability.

      Compared to the first version of the paper, the cluster analysis in this revised version yields three distinct populations instead of the previous four. While the authors suggest that these subpopulations play important roles in encoding different aspects of decision-making, the identification of three rather than four subpopulations seems to me an important update that warrants discussion.

      The clustering results are slightly different because, following suggestions from the first round of reviews, we now use more principled approaches for selecting neurons and computing the clusters. The primary difference is that Clusters 1 and 3 in the original manuscript have mostly been merged into one cluster (new Cluster 3). We updated the text to note that our use of three clusters depends on our choice of clustering cutoff and continue to emphasize that the clusters are consistent across monkeys and clustering techniques: In Results: “Inspection of the dendrogram (hierarchical cluster tree) suggested that our STN samples can be reasonably grouped into three clusters, although other groupings are possible using different clustering cutoffs (Figure 5-S1).” In Discussion: “Furthermore, our clustering analysis aimed to identify common activity profiles in the STN population, while leaving behind many neurons that either did not show consistent task-related modulation or had less common activity profiles (e.g., those that were far from others in the vector space and those with too infrequent occurrence to form detectable clusters). More work is needed to continue to refine our understanding of the specific computational contributions of the STN to decision formation.”

      Finally, I think it would have been interesting to identify the level of collinearity in the model proposed by the authors (equation 7). Indeed, one can expect significant collinearity between some of the proposed explanatory factors of neuronal activity, such as choice and coherence level, for example.

      The reviewer is correct that choice and coherence are correlated with the formulation of Eq. 7. However, such collinearity does not seem to bias the regression results (Author response image 1). We have performed simulations with different modulation strengths and noise levels (A and C) and observed generally good recoverability of the ground-truth regression coefficients (red: unity-slope lines), despite the strong correlation between choice and coherence for one choice (B).

      Author response image 1.

      Similarly, for the analysis relating neuron activity to decision evaluation signals (p 16), firing rates calculated using sliding averages with 1-ms steps are compared, but the method does not specify controls for multiple comparisons or for non-independent data.

      We have made multiple comparison corrections using the Benjamini and Hochberg procedure and updated the relevant text in Methods, Results, and Abstract accordingly.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This study presents a valuable RNA velocity method which predicts the transcription rate linearly based on the expression of RNA levels of transcription factors with addition of comprehensive analyses. The evidence supporting the claims of the authors is solid, although inclusion of a full simulation would have strengthened the study. The work will be of interest to scientists working in the field of RNA biology and precision medicine.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In the paper, the authors propose a new RNA velocity method, TSvelo, which predicts the transcription rate linearly based on the expression of RNA levels of transcription factors. This framework is an extension of its recent work TFvelo by including unspliced reads and designing a coherent neuralODE framework. Improved performance was demonstrated in six diverse datasets.

      Strengths:

      Overall, this method introduces innovative solutions to link cell differentiation and gene regulation, with a balance between model complexity (neuralODE) and interpretability (raw gene space).

      Comments on revised version:

      The authors have added comprehensive analyses in this revision, and all of my concerns have been very well addressed. Here, I just want to re-emphasize the original points 1 and 3.

      (1) The analysis and clarification are very helpful - thanks! I found that Fig. R1 and R2 are very insightful, as DoRothEA-only returns much worse performance. Please consider adding these two figures to the supp figure and possibly highlighting your setting for edge pruning (down-weights); therefore, the model is more likely to be affected by false negatives than false positives in the TF-target prior.

      (3) Please consider adding some discussion on the challenges in capturing cell cycle transitions.

    3. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Despite the abundance of RNA velocity tools, there are still major limitations, and there is strong skepticism about the results these methods lead to. In this paper, the authors try to address some limitations of current RNA velocity approaches by proposing a unified framework to jointly infer transcriptional and splicing dynamics. The method is then benchmarked on 6 real datasets against the most popular RNA velocity tools.

      Comments on revised version.

      The Authors addressed all my comments suitably. I'd like to thank them for the time they spent addressing them: the revised paper is much more convincing.

      I have 2 very minor follow-up concerns:

      (1) I appreciated the simulation study, however, no null simulation is present.<br /> We know RNA velocity tools are inclined to provide false positives: trajectories even when the data doesn't have any.<br /> I'd be helpful to add null simulations where the data has no trajectories and see if methods erroneously identify any.

      (2) Several of the novel analyses are only reported in the Supplementary material and only references in the main text (e.g., "A validation of TSvelo on simulated data is provided in Fig. S1 and Fig. S2 in the Supplementary Information."). This is pity!

      If allowed, I'd add some comments about the new analyses (simulations, computational benchmarks, etc...) also in the main text.

    4. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In the paper, the authors propose a new RNA velocity method, TSvelo, which predicts the transcription rate linearly based on the expression of RNA levels of transcription factors. This framework is an extension of its recent work TFvelo by including unspliced reads and designing a coherent neuralODE framework. Improved performance was demonstrated in six diverse datasets.

      Strengths:

      Overall, this method introduces innovative solutions to link cell differentiation and gene regulation, with a balance between model complexity (neuralODE) and interpretability (raw gene space).

      We thank the reviewer for the positive evaluation of our work and for recognizing the novelty of the proposed framework. We appreciate the reviewer’s summary highlighting that TSvelo extends our previous method TFvelo by incorporating unspliced reads and introducing a coherent neuralODE framework to model transcription dynamics.

      We are encouraged that the reviewer recognizes the potential of our approach to link cell differentiation with gene regulatory mechanisms, while maintaining a balance between model expressiveness and interpretability in the gene expression space. In the revised manuscript, we have further clarified several methodological details and strengthened the presentation to better highlight these aspects.

      Weaknesses:

      While it seems to provide convincing results, there are multiple technical concerns for the authors to clarify and double-check.

      (1) The authors should clarify and discuss the TF-target map: here, the TF-target genes map is predefined by the TF binding's ChIP-seq data. This annotation is largely incomplete and mostly compiled from a set of bulk tissues. Therefore, for a certain population, the TF-target relation may change. This requires clarification and discussion, possibly exploring how to address this in the model. In addition, a regulon database could be added, e.g., DoRothEA?

      We thank the reviewer for this important comment. The TF–target maps used in TSvelo (e.g., derived from ChIP-seq-based resources such as ENCODE) reflect aggregated TF binding evidence collected across diverse bulk cell types and experimental conditions. As such, they are inherently incomplete and do not capture fully context-specific regulatory activity in a given primary tissue. In TSvelo, we therefore do not treat these annotations as fixed or cell-type-specific ground truth regulatory relationships. Instead, they are used as a permissive prior that encodes a broad set of potential regulatory interactions.

      Within the TSvelo framework, the contribution of each TF–target interaction is learned from data through weight estimation, allowing the model to down-weight or effectively ignore prior edges that are inconsistent with the observed single-cell expression dynamics. This design enables TSvelo to remain robust even when the prior TF–target map is noisy, incomplete, or derived from heterogeneous bulk contexts.

      Following the reviewer’s suggestion, we additionally incorporated the DoRothEA regulon database as an alternative prior with confidence-level filtering. We further performed ablation studies on the pancreas dataset and the gastrulation erythroid dataset using different TF–target resources, including ChEA, ENCODE, and their combinations with DoRothEA.

      The results on the pancreas dataset and the gastrulation erythroid dataset are shown in Figure S13 and Figure S14 respectively, which come up with the same conclusion. We observed highly consistent results across most TF–target prior combinations, including ChEA, ENCODE, ChEA+ENCODE, ChEA+DoRothEA, ENCODE+DoRothEA, and ChEA+ENCODE+DoRothEA. Using the pancreas dataset as example, the mean velocity consistency ranged from 0.985 to 0.995, the mean in-cluster coherence ranged from 0.983 to 0.992, and the mean cross-boundary direction correctness ranged from 0.719 to 0.740 across all settings. These consistently high and tightly bounded metrics indicate that TSvelo is largely insensitive to the specific choice of TF–target prior.

      The only configuration showing reduced stability was the use of DoRothEA alone, particularly in terms of cross-boundary direction correctness. This is likely due to its comparatively limited coverage of TF–target interactions. For instance, in the pancreas dataset, only 81 out of 2000 highly variable genes (HVGs) could be associated with TFs based on DoRothEA, corresponding to 102 TF–target links in total, which may restrict downstream regulatory modeling. In contrast, ChEA covered 1793 genes with 13,976 TF–target links, and ENCODE covered 1854 genes with 33,076 links. These results further suggest that integrating multiple TF–target resources could improve performance, likely due to increased coverage and complementary regulatory information.

      We further acknowledge that regulatory interactions are inherently context-dependent, and that no static TF–target resource can fully capture tissue-specific regulatory programs. In the revised Discussion, we explicitly clarify this limitation and highlight that incorporating context-specific regulatory data (e.g., single-cell chromatin accessibility or perturbation-based regulatory maps) represents an important direction for future improvement.

      (2) The authors should clarify how example genes are selected. This is particularly unclear in Figure 2d.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this point. The example genes shown in Fig. 2d were selected to illustrate representative scenarios where our method provides advantages, particularly cases in which the unspliced–spliced 2D phase portrait exhibits mixed or overlapping patterns that are difficult to model using conventional RNA velocity approaches. These examples are therefore intended to demonstrate the types of transcriptional dynamics that TSvelo is designed to better capture.

      To avoid the impression of selective presentation, we note that our conclusions are based on systematic evaluation across all genes and datasets. Additional visualizations for a broader set of genes on this dataset are provided in Fig. S3. We have clarified the example gene selection criteria in the revised manuscript.

      (3) The authors should clarify confidence in the statement in lines 179-180, that ANXA4 should initially decrease. This is particularly concerning, as TSvelo didn't capture the cell cycle transitions well during the initial part.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this point. The statement that ANXA4 initially decreases is based on the observed expression pattern in the dataset rather than on cell-cycle–related dynamics inferred by the model. Specifically, ANXA4 shows higher expression in Ductal cells compared to Ngn3 EP cells, and Ductal represents an earlier stage in the developmental trajectory. Therefore, along the Ductal to Ngn3 EP transition, ANXA4 naturally exhibits an initial decrease in expression. We have clarified this point in the revised manuscript.

      (4) A support reference should be added for the statement in line 260 that "neuron migrations are inside-out manner". There is no reference supporting this, and this statement is critical for the model assessment.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. This pattern has been reported in previous studies [1,2], which have been added into the revised manuscript.

      To Improve clarity, we have also revised the statement in the manuscript as follows:

      “During cortical development, neurons follow an inside-out layering pattern in which earlier-born neurons populate the deep cortical layers, whereas later-born neurons migrate past them to occupy more superficial layers.”

      (1) Nadarajah, B., Parnavelas, J. Modes of neuronal migration in the developing cerebral cortex. Nat Rev Neurosci 3, 423–432 (2002).

      (2) Li, C., Virgilio, M.C., Collins, K.L. et al. Multi-omic single-cell velocity models epigenome–transcriptome interactions and improves cell fate prediction. Nat Biotechnol 41, 387–398 (2023).

      (5) The comparison to scMultiomics data is particularly interesting, as MultiVelo uses ATAC data to predict the transcription rate. It would be very insightful to add a direct comparison of the estimated transcription rate between using ATAC and directly using TFs' RNA expressions.

      We thank the reviewer for suggesting this highly interesting comparison between ATAC-derived regulatory activity and TF RNA-based proxies for transcription rate estimation.

      We have conducted the requested analysis by computing gene-wise chrome accessibility rate used in MultiVelo and the learned transcription rate from TSvelo, and evaluated their correlation across genes. As shown in Figure S15, the two estimates exhibit almost no global correlation across genes, indicating that they capture substantially different aspects of regulatory information.

      This discrepancy is not unexpected and reflects the fundamental differences between these modalities. scATAC-seq measures chromatin accessibility, which provides a proxy for cis-regulatory potential of genomic regions. However, ATAC signals are inherently sparse and often exhibit a near-binary structure, limiting their ability to directly capture fine-grained temporal regulatory dynamics. In contrast, TF RNA expression reflects downstream transcriptional output, which is shaped by multiple regulatory layers, including post-transcriptional regulation, protein activity, temporal delays, and indirect regulation through intermediate transcriptional or signaling pathways. As a result, these two modalities are expected to capture complementary but not directly comparable aspects of gene regulation.

      Overall, this result suggests that ATAC-based and TF RNA-based signals capture distinct aspects of gene regulation. This further implies that integrating both modalities may be beneficial for future models that aim to more comprehensively characterize transcriptional regulation. We have added this discussion to the supplementary information.

      (6) In Figure 6g, it should be clarified how the lineage was determined. Did the authors use the LARRY barcodes, predicted cell fate, or any other methods? Here, the best way is probably using the LARRY barcodes for individual clones.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. The lineage assignment used in Fig. 6g is described in the Methods section (“Lineage segmentation and pseudotime initialization”). Briefly, lineages are inferred from the transcriptomic structure of the data by performing Leiden clustering followed by PAGA-based connectivity analysis. Starting from an initial Leiden cluster, the filtered PAGA graph defines the shortest paths to other clusters, which are considered as the detected lineages, and diffusion pseudotime (DPT) is then used to initialize pseudotime along each lineage. Thus, in this analysis lineages are determined from the expression-derived trajectory structure. We have clarified this point in the revised manuscript and refer readers to the Methods section.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Li et al. propose TSvelo, a computational framework for RNA velocity inference that models transcriptional regulation and gene-specific splicing using a neural ODE approach. The method is intended to improve trajectory reconstruction and capture dynamic gene expression changes in scRNA-seq data. However, the manuscript in its current form falls short in several critical areas, including rigorous validation, quantitative benchmarking, clarity of definitions, proper use of prior knowledge, and interpretive caution. Many of the authors' claims are not fully supported by the evidence.

      We thank the reviewer for the careful evaluation of our manuscript and for the constructive comments. We appreciate the concerns regarding validation, benchmarking, methodological clarity, and interpretation. In the revised manuscript, we have carefully addressed these points by adding additional analyses, clarifying methodological details, and moderating several claims to ensure they are fully supported by the data. Detailed responses to each comment are provided below.

      Major comments:

      (1) Modeling comments

      (a) Lines 512-513: How does the U-to-S delay validate the accuracy of pseudotime? Using only a single gene as an example is not sufficient for "validation."

      We thank the reviewer for this important clarification. In the revised manuscript, we have rephrased this part to clarify that Fig. 1a serves only as an illustrative example showing the U-to-S delay for a single gene. Accordingly, we have corrected our statement to indicate that the U-to-S delay is used to infer trajectory orientation, rather than to validate the accuracy of pseudotime.

      In addition, we have expanded the description to explain that U-to-S delay signals are aggregated across all genes to provide a more robust and comprehensive assessment for this purpose. Additional analysis is provided in our response to the next comment.

      (b) Lines 512-518: The authors propose a strategy for selecting the initial state, but do not benchmark how accurate this selection procedure is, nor do they provide sufficient rationale. While some genes may indeed exhibit U-to-S delay during lineage differentiation, why does the highest U-to-S delay score indicate the correct initiation states? Please provide mathematical justification and demonstrate accuracy beyond using a single gene example. Maybe a simulation with ground truth could help here, too.

      We thank the reviewer for this insightful comment. In the revised manuscript, we have clarified both the intuition and justification of this approach. Briefly, along a correctly oriented trajectory, unspliced (U) expression is expected to precede spliced (S) expression due to transcriptional dynamics. Ideally, this U-to-S delay would be observable at the level of individual genes. However, due to the high noise inherent in scRNA-seq data, such delays are often not consistently detectable on a per-gene basis. To address this, we aggregate U-to-S delay signals across all genes and determine the lineage orientation by maximizing a global delay score. Under this criterion, the cluster from which all outgoing lineages exhibit the highest aggregated U-to-S delay is inferred to correspond to the initial state.

      We emphasize that this approach relies on genome-wide aggregation rather than any single gene. Moreover, the same strategy is applied uniformly across all six datasets using identical parameter settings, demonstrating its robustness and stability. To further address the reviewer’s concern, we additionally present the U-to-S delay scores for each Leiden cluster when treated as the initial state across all datasets (Author response image 1). The results on all datasets suggest that the highest U-to-S delay scores can be used to detect the initial cluster.

      Author response image 1.

      The U-to-S delay scores for each Leiden cluster when treated as the initial state across all datasets.

      Following your suggestions, we also add a simulation study. We generated synthetic single-cell RNA velocity datasets using a mechanistic transcriptional dynamics model with one or multiple developmental branches. The system included 200 genes, among which 30 were designated as transcription factors (TFs).

      For each branch, we independently sampled a TF–target regulatory matrix W ϵ R<sup>30×200</sup> from a standard normal distribution to simulate distinct GRN structures. Gene expression dynamics were modeled using a coupled ordinary differential equation (ODE) system describing unspliced and spliced RNA abundances:

      where u and s denote unspliced and spliced RNA levels, respectively. The transcription rate α was computed as a nonlinear function of TF expression, defined as a weighted sum of spliced TF abundance, followed by clipping to ensure bounded activation.

      Each branch is initialized from the same randomly sampled initial condition drawn from a gamma distribution, allowing controlled divergence of trajectories driven solely by branch-specific regulatory programs.

      To simulate observed sequencing counts, we introduced technical noise by scaling latent expression levels with cell-specific library sizes drawn from a log-normal distribution. The resulting expression counts were generated using a negative binomial sampling model:

      where θ controls over dispersion, with smaller values corresponding to higher noise levels. The final datasets consist of paired unspliced (U) and spliced (S) count matrices with realistic transcriptional stochasticity and branching gene regulatory dynamics. For each branch, cells were further divided into three developmental stages for downstream analysis.

      We evaluated TSvelo on multiple simulated datasets with varying numbers of branches and noise levels. There are two or three branches start from the same root cell groups in these datasets (Branch 1: stage 0 - stage 1 - stage 2. Branch 2: stage 0 - stage 3 - stage 4. Branch 3: stage 0 - stage 5 - stage 6). The results of initial state identification based on the unspliced-to-spliced (U-to-S) delay, along with the corresponding 2D velocity stream visualizations, are presented in Supplementary Figure S1. These results demonstrate that the U-to-S delay–based initialization is robust and consistently identifies cells corresponding to the earliest developmental stage (“stage 0”) across different simulation settings. All additional results have been included in the Supplementary Information.

      (c) Equation (8): The formulation looks to be incorrect. If $$W \in \mathbb{R}^{G\times G}$$ and $$W' - \Gamma' \in \mathbb{R}^{K\times K}$$, how can they be aligned within the same row? Please clarify.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. This was a typographical error in the manuscript. In the third line of Equation (8), the term should be W’ instead of W. We have corrected this in the revised manuscript to ensure dimensional consistency.

      (d) The use of prior knowledge graphs from ENCODE or ChEA to constrain regulation raises concerns. Much of the regulatory information in these databases comes from cell lines. How can such cell-line-based regulation be reliably applied to primary tissues, as is done throughout the manuscript? Additional experiments are needed to test the robustness of TSvelo with respect to prior knowledge.

      We thank the reviewer for this important comment. In TSvelo, TF–target networks from resources such as ENCODE and ChEA are incorporated as priors that guide the model toward biologically plausible regulatory structures. Importantly, the contribution of each TF–target interaction is learned from the data, allowing the model to down-weight or override potentially inaccurate or context-mismatched regulatory links. By aggregating signals across a large number of genes, the model further reduces sensitivity to noise and incompleteness in any single prior network.

      To evaluate robustness with respect to prior knowledge, we incorporated the DoRothEA regulon resource as an alternative TF–target prior with confidence-level filtering. We further performed ablation studies on the pancreas dataset and the gastrulation erythroid dataset using different TF–target resources, including ChEA, ENCODE, and their combinations with DoRothEA.

      The results on the pancreas dataset and the gastrulation erythroid dataset are shown in Figure S13 and Figure S14 respectively, which come up with the same conclusion. We observed highly consistent results across most TF–target prior combinations, including ChEA, ENCODE, ChEA+ENCODE, ChEA+DoRothEA, ENCODE+DoRothEA, and ChEA+ENCODE+DoRothEA. Using the pancreas dataset as example, the mean velocity consistency ranged from 0.985 to 0.995, the mean in-cluster coherence ranged from 0.983 to 0.992, and the mean cross-boundary direction correctness ranged from 0.719 to 0.740 across all settings. These consistently high and tightly bounded metrics indicate that TSvelo is largely insensitive to the specific choice of TF–target prior. Notably, these results further suggest that even when the underlying regulatory resources differ in origin (e.g., cell-line-derived vs. curated or aggregated datasets), the inferred dynamics remain stable.

      The only configuration showing reduced stability was the use of DoRothEA alone, particularly for cross-boundary direction correctness. This is likely due to its comparatively limited coverage of TF–target interactions. For instance, in the pancreas dataset, only 81 out of 2000 highly variable genes (HVGs) could be associated with TFs based on DoRothEA, corresponding to 102 TF–target links in total, which may limit downstream regulatory modeling. In contrast, ChEA covered 1793 genes with 13,976 TF–target links, and ENCODE covered 1854 genes with 33,076 links. These results further suggest that integrating multiple TF–target resources can improve performance, likely due to increased coverage and complementary regulatory information.

      We agree that regulatory interactions derived from resources such as ENCODE and ChEA may not fully generalize to primary tissues due to their context-dependent nature. In the revised Discussion, we explicitly clarify this limitation, particularly their inability to capture tissue-specific regulatory programs. We further highlight that incorporating context-specific regulatory data, such as single-cell chromatin accessibility or perturbation-based regulatory maps, represents an important direction for future improvement.

      (e) Lines 579-580: How is the grid search performed? More methodological details are required. If an existing method was used, please provide a citation.

      The grid search for the time step means that the model evaluates the loss in equation (10) across all candidate values of t<sub>step</sub> in the set {0,1,2,...,999}. This strategy was originally adopted in scVelo for optimizing the time step parameter. We have now added the corresponding citation to scVelo in the revised manuscript.

      (2) Application on pancreatic endocrine datasets

      (a) Lines 140-141: What is the definition of the final pseudotime-fitted time t or velocity pseudotime?

      There is no distinction between “final pseudotime”, “fitted time t” and “velocity pseudotime”. All of them refer to the same quantity in our framework. To eliminate any potential ambiguity, we have standardized the terminology by replacing “final pseudotime” with “pseudotime”.

      (b) Lines 143-144: The use of the velocity consistency metric to benchmark methods in multi-lineage datasets is incorrect. In multi-lineage differentiation systems, cells (e.g., those in fate priming stages) may inherently show inconsistency in their velocity. Thus, it is difficult to distinguish inconsistency caused by estimation error from that arising from biological signals. Velocity consistency metrics are only appropriate in systems with unidirectional trajectories (e.g., cell cycling). The abnormally high consistency values here raise concerns about whether the estimated velocities meaningfully capture lineage differences.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this important point regarding the use of the velocity consistency metric in multi-lineage systems. Velocity consistency was initially introduced by scVelo [1] and implemented as scvelo.velocity_confidence() in its package. Velocity consistency provides one of the few widely adopted quantitative criteria for benchmarking RNA velocities [2]. We agree that it is especially suitable for single-lineage processes. For datasets with clear multi-lineage differentiation (Fig. 5 and Fig. 6), we do not use this metric, precisely to avoid the issue highlighted by the reviewer.

      However, the pancreatic endocrine dataset (Fig. 2) exhibits minimal branching, making velocity consistency be more appropriate. As introduced by veloVI study, RNA velocities are supposed to change smoothly over the phenotypic manifold [3]. Higher consistency indicates that neighboring cells show compatible velocity directions, reflecting stable and coherence of the inferred velocity field. Additionally, multiple previous studies used velocity consistency to evaluate model performance on this pancreas dataset [2,3,4], providing a standard point of comparison.

      To better address your concerns, we have replaced the corresponding panel in Fig. 2 of the main text with an evaluation of cell-type separability in both the traditional 2D (unspliced–spliced) phase portrait and the learned 3D (α–unspliced–spliced) phase portrait by TSvelo (Author response image 4 in our response to your subsequent question). We appreciate your suggestions, as the comparison more clearly highlights the novelty and contribution of TSvelo and helps explain its improved performance. Now, the velocity consistency panel has been moved to the Supplementary Information. In addition, we have added a clearer explanation of the cross-boundary correctness metric in the revised manuscript.

      (1) Bergen, V., Lange, M., Peidli, S., Wolf, F. A., & Theis, F. J. (2020). Generalizing RNA velocity to transient cell states through dynamical modeling. Nature Biotechnology, 38(12), 1408-1414.

      (2) Luo, Y., Ren, J., Yang, Q. ... & Li, Q. (2026). Benchmarking RNA velocity methods across 17 independent studies, Cell Reports Methods, 101367.

      (3) Gayoso, A., Weiler, P., Lotfollahi, M., Klein, D., Hong, J., Streets, A., ... & Yosef, N. (2024). Deep generative modeling of transcriptional dynamics for RNA velocity analysis in single cells. Nature Methods, 21(1), 50-59.

      (4) Li, J., Pan, X., Yuan, Y., & Shen, H. B. (2024). TFvelo: gene regulation inspired RNA velocity estimation. Nature Communications, 15(1), 1387.

      (c) The improvement of TSvelo over other methods in terms of cross-boundary direction correctness looks marginal; a statistical test would help to assess its significance.

      We thank the reviewer for this insightful comment. In the revised manuscript, we have added statistical tests for evaluated metrics, including velocity consistency, cross-boundary direction correctness, and in-cluster coherence.

      As shown in Author response image 2, TSvelo significantly outperforms all baseline methods in terms of velocity consistency across both datasets. For in-cluster coherence, TSvelo achieves significantly better performance on the gastrulation (erythroid) dataset, while on the pancreas dataset it performs comparably to the best-performing baselines (UniTVelo and TFvelo) and significantly outperforms several competing methods, including CellDancer, Dynamo, and scVelo.

      For cross-boundary direction correctness, TSvelo shows consistent improvements in mean performance on the pancreas dataset (Author response image 3), and significantly outperforms Dynamo and scVelo on the gastrulation dataset. Although not all pairwise comparisons on cross-boundary direction correctness reach statistical significance, this is likely influenced by the limited number of independent samples (n = 7 and n = 4 for the two datasets, respectively), which reduces statistical power for detecting differences. Importantly, TSvelo still achieves the best average performance among all methods, indicating a consistent overall trend in favor of TSvelo.

      We have added these results into the revised manuscript.

      Author response image 2.

      The quantitative comparison between TSvelo and baseline approaches on the pancreas dataset (panel a) and the gastrulation erythroid dataset (panel b). In each plot, methods are ranked in descending order of their mean values. Numbers at the bottom indicate the sample size for each metric. Significance is determined using a one-sided Mann–Whitney U test. *****, ***, ** and * represent p < 0.00001, 0.0001 ≤ p < 0.001, 0.001 ≤ p < 0.01, and 0.01 ≤ p < 0.05, respectively.

      Author response image 3.

      The comparison of mean cross-boundary direction correctness on the pancreas dataset.

      (d) Lines 177-178: Based on the figure, TSvelo does not appear to clearly distinguish cell types. A quantitative metric, such as Adjusted Rand Index (ARI), should be provided.

      We thank the reviewer for this helpful suggestion. To quantitatively assess whether TSvelo can distinguish cell types, we evaluated the separability of cell-type labels in both the 2D (unspliced–spliced) phase portrait adopted by previous RNA velocity approaches, and the 3D (α–unspliced–spliced, α denotes the transcriptional rate) phase portrait introduced by TSvelo.

      Specifically, we evaluated how well the embedding preserves cell-type information using a k-nearest neighbors (kNN) classification accuracy with 5-fold cross-validation. Given an embedding matrix in 2D or 3D space (X 𝛜 ℝ<sup>n*d</sup>, where n is the number of cells and d is 2 or 3) and corresponding cell-type labels (y 𝛜 {1, … ,C}, we partition the data into five folds. For each fold (k), a kNN classifier with K = 5, denoted asf<sup>(k)</sup>, is trained on the training subset and evaluated on the held-out test subset. The classification accuracy for the k-th fold is defined as ℝ

      where n<sub>k</sub> is the number of samples in the test set and 1(.)is the indicator function. The final score is obtained by averaging across all folds:

      This metric directly assesses whether cells of the same type are positioned close to each other in the embedding space, and is widely used to quantify representation quality.

      Using this evaluation, we observed that the 3D phase portrait consistently achieves significantly higher accuracy than the 2D phase portrait (Author response image 4). The improvement is highly statistically significant (one-sided Mann–Whitney U test, p-value = 4.37 × 10<sup>-10</sup>), demonstrating that the 3D representation provides substantially better separation of cell types.

      We have added these quantitative results to the revised manuscript to complement the visual evidence and to clarify that TSvelo effectively distinguishes cell types in the learned representation.

      Author response image 4.

      The evaluation of the separability of cell-type labels in both the 2D (unspliced–spliced) phase portrait and the 3D (α–unspliced–spliced) phase portrait for the pancreas dataset.

      (e) Lines 179-183: The claim that traditional methods cannot capture dynamics in the unspliced-spliced phase portrait is vague. What specific aspect is not captured-the fitted values or something else? Evidence is lacking. Please provide a detailed explanation and quantitative metrics to support this claim.

      We thank the reviewer for this important comment. We have revised the text to more clearly illustrate this point using representative example genes as follows: “For instance, ANXA4 shows higher expression in Ductal cells compared to Ngn3 low EP cells, which mean its expression pattern exhibits an initial decrease followed by an increase. Such dynamics are not easily captured in the conventional unspliced–spliced phase portrait used by previous approaches, as many baseline methods implicitly assume a decreasing–then–increasing expression pattern. By comparison, TSvelo can still fit such expression pattern by using additional information from the 3D phase portrait.”

      In addition, we also clarify that the 2D u–s representation has limited capacity to separate heterogeneous dynamic cell states, which can affect downstream velocity field estimation. In the conventional 2D u–s phase portrait, cells from different dynamic regimes may overlap in the same region of the embedding space. This overlap reduces the identifiability of underlying transcriptional states and makes the inferred local dynamics more ambiguous. In contrast, TSvelo introduces an additional latent variable α, forming a 3D (α, u, s) phase portrait, which helps disentangle these mixed trajectories and yields a more structured and separable representation of cell dynamics. We have provided quantitative evidence in the previous response (Author response image 4). Briefly, the proposed 3D representation achieves consistently higher kNN classification accuracy (5-fold cross-validation, k=5) for cell state identification compared to the 2D u–s embedding.

      (3) Application to gastrulation erythroid datasets

      (a) Lines 191-194: The observation that velocity genes are enriched for erythropoiesis-related pathways is trivial, since the analysis is restricted to highly variable genes (HVGs) from an erythropoiesis dataset. This enrichment is expected and therefore not informative.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment and agree that such enrichment is expected given the use of HVGs from an erythropoiesis dataset. This analysis was included only as a preliminary sanity check to support the plausibility of the inferred velocity genes, rather than as a main result. We have accordingly simplified the description and clarified that this analysis serves only as a preliminary check in the revised manuscript.

      (b) Lines 227-228: It remains unclear how TSvelo "accurately captures the dynamics." What is the definition of dynamics in this context? Figure 3g shows unspliced/spliced vs. fitted time plots and phase portraits, but without a quantitative definition or measure, the claim of superiority cannot be supported. Visualization of a single gene is insufficient; a systematic and quantitative analysis is needed.

      We thank the reviewer for this important comment. We have revised the text to more clearly illustrate this point using representative example genes as follows: “For HSP90AB1, which exhibits a counter-clockwise pattern in the unspliced–spliced phase portrait, in contrast to the clockwise dynamics typically assumed by most baseline approaches, it is difficult for previous methods to capture this behavior, whereas TSvelo can still faithfully model such patterns. For genes such as RPS26, which have critical roles in the development in blood progenitors to erythroid40, the unspliced-spliced data is so noisy that cells of different types overlap in phase portrait. TSvelo can still captures the gene dynamics and reveals differences in transcription rates across cell types.”

      In addition, we explicitly emphasize the role of the 3D (α, u, s) phase portrait, which provides a more structured and separable representation of transcriptional states compared to the conventional 2D u–s space. This improved representation is the key factor underlying the advantages of TSvelo in modeling transcriptional processes. In the conventional 2D u–s phase portrait, cells from different transcriptional states may overlap, leading to reduced separability. In contrast, introducing the latent variable α expands the representation to a 3D space, which helps disentangle these mixed states and yields a clearer phase structure. Similar to our previous response in Author response image 4, we provide quantitative evidence on this gastrulation erythroid dataset in Figure S7, showing that the 3D representation achieves consistently higher kNN classification accuracy for cell state separation compared to the 2D u–s embedding (one-sided Mann–Whitney U test, p-value = 0.002).

      (4) Application to the mouse brain and other datasets

      (a) Lines 280-281: The authors cannot claim that velocity streams are smoother in TSvelo than in Multivelo based solely on 2D visualization. Similarly, claiming that one model predicts the correct differentiation trajectory from a 2D projection is over-interpretation, as has been discussed in prior literature see PMID: 37885016.

      We thank the reviewer for this important comment. Consistent with other RNA velocity studies, TSvelo employs the 2D UMAP stream plot for visualizing the results. We agree that conclusions based solely on 2D visualizations may lead to over-interpretation. Our intention was to provide an intuitive visualization rather than a rigorous quantitative comparison. Accordingly, we have revised the text to avoid making definitive claims about smoothness or correctness of differentiation trajectories based solely on 2D projections.

      (b) Lines 304-306: Beyond transcriptional signal estimation, how is regulation inferred solely from scRNA-seq data validated, especially compared with scATAC-seq data? Are there cases where transcriptome-based regulatory inference is supported by epigenomic evidence, thereby demonstrating TSvelo's GRN inference accuracy?

      We thank the reviewer for this important question regarding the validation of regulatory inference derived from scRNA-seq data and its comparison to scATAC-seq-based evidence.

      We would like to first clarify the scope of TSvelo. Similar to existing RNA velocity methods, the primary goal of TSvelo is to model transcriptional dynamics and accurately infer cell state transitions and cell fate trajectories. In this context, gene regulatory information is not inferred de novo from data, but incorporated as prior knowledge from curated TF–target databases to guide and constrain the dynamics modeling process, as described in our Introduction.

      We have conducted the requested analysis by computing gene-wise chrome accessibility rate used in MultiVelo and the learned transcription rate from TSvelo, and evaluated their correlation across genes. As shown in Figure S15, the two estimates exhibit almost no global correlation across genes, indicating that they capture substantially different aspects of regulatory information.

      This discrepancy is not unexpected and reflects the fundamental differences between these modalities. scATAC-seq measures chromatin accessibility, which provides a proxy for cis-regulatory potential of genomic regions. In contrast, TF RNA expression reflects downstream transcriptional output, which is shaped by multiple regulatory layers, including post-transcriptional regulation, protein activity, temporal delays, and indirect regulation through intermediate transcriptional or signaling pathways. As a result, these two modalities are expected to capture complementary but not directly comparable aspects of gene regulation.

      We acknowledge that scATAC-seq provides valuable complementary information on chromatin accessibility and regulatory potential, and will consider incorporating matched multi-omics data in future work. In the revised manuscript, we further clarify that TSvelo is an RNA velocity method that incorporates prior knowledge from curated TF–target databases, and we have added a discussion on the potential use of scATAC-seq data for future extension of our framework.

      (c) The claim that TSvelo can model multi-lineage datasets hinges on its use of PAGA for lineage segmentation, followed by independent modeling of dynamics within each subset. However, the procedure for merging results across subsets remains unclear.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out that the merging step was not sufficiently described. After modeling dynamics independently within each lineage-specific subset, TSvelo integrates the results via a weighted aggregation procedure at the cell level.

      For each cell and each inferred quantity (e.g., velocity or other dynamic variables), we collect the estimates obtained from different lineage-specific models and combine them using a weighted average. The weights are defined by the size of each lineage, reflecting its statistical support. We have clarified details about this merging procedure in the Methods section.

      This aggregation reconciles multiple lineage-specific estimates for the same cell into a single value and mitigates discontinuities that could arise from directly combining independent lineage analyses. The resulting values define a unified set of dynamics for each cell across lineages.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Despite the abundance of RNA velocity tools, there are still major limitations, and there is strong skepticism about the results these methods lead to. In this paper, the authors try to address some limitations of current RNA velocity approaches by proposing a unified framework to jointly infer transcriptional and splicing dynamics. The method is then benchmarked on 6 real datasets against the most popular RNA velocity tools.

      While the approach has the potential to be of interest for the field, and may present improvements compared to existing approaches, there are some major limitations that should be addressed, particularly concerning the benchmark (see major comment 1).

      Major comments:

      (1) My main criticism concerns the benchmarking: real data lack a ground truth, and are absolutely not ideal for comparing methods, because one can only speculate what results appear to be more plausible.

      A solid and extensive simulation study, which covers various scenarios and possibly distinct data-generating models, is needed for comparing approaches. The authors should check, for example, the simulation studies in the BayVel approach (Section 4, BayVel: A Bayesian Framework for RNA Velocity Estimation in Single-Cell Transcriptomics). Clearly, all methods should be included in the simulation.

      Following your recommendation, we have added the simulation analysis to compare TSvelo with existing RNA velocity approaches. We generated synthetic single-cell RNA velocity datasets using a mechanistic transcriptional dynamics model with one or multiple developmental branches. The system included 200 genes, among which 30 were designated as transcription factors (TFs).

      For each branch, we independently sampled a TF–target regulatory matrix W ϵ ℝ<sup>30×200</sup> from a standard normal distribution to simulate distinct GRN structures. Gene expression dynamics were modeled using a coupled ordinary differential equation (ODE) system describing unspliced and spliced RNA abundances:

      where u and s denote unspliced and spliced RNA levels, respectively. The transcription rate α was computed as a nonlinear function of TF expression, defined as a weighted sum of spliced TF abundance, followed by clipping to ensure bounded activation.

      Each branch is initialized from the same randomly sampled initial condition drawn from a gamma distribution, allowing controlled divergence of trajectories driven solely by branch-specific regulatory programs.

      To simulate observed sequencing counts, we introduced technical noise by scaling latent expression levels with cell-specific library sizes drawn from a log-normal distribution. The resulting expression counts were generated using a negative binomial sampling model:

      where θ controls over dispersion, with smaller values corresponding to higher noise levels. The final datasets consist of paired unspliced (U) and spliced (S) count matrices with realistic transcriptional stochasticity and branching gene regulatory dynamics. For each branch, cells were further divided into three developmental stages for downstream analysis.

      We evaluated TSvelo and those splicing-based RNA velocity approaches on multiple simulated datasets with varying numbers of branches and noise levels. There are one, two or three branches start from the same cell group in these datasets (Branch 1: stage 0 - stage 1 - stage 2. Branch 2: stage 0 - stage 3 - stage 4. Branch 3: stage 0 - stage 5 - stage 6). We primarily assessed performance using the cross-boundary direction correctness (CBDir) metric, as it directly evaluates inferred trajectories against ground-truth cell stage annotations, which have been widely adopted in RNA velocity studies such as VeloAE and UniTvelo. In detail, Cross-boundary direction correctness assesses the accuracy of transitions from a source cluster to a target cluster by examining the boundary cells, and requires ground truth annotations. We directly run the function unitvelo.evaluate() provided in UniTVelo to obtain the Cross-boundary direction correctness. In detail, the CBDir is calculated as follows:

      where θ controls over dispersion, with smaller values corresponding to higher noise levels. The final datasets consist of paired unspliced (U) and spliced (S) count matrices with realistic transcriptional stochasticity and branching gene regulatory dynamics. For each branch, cells were further divided into three developmental stages for downstream analysis.

      where C<sub>A</sub> denotes the set of cells in the target cluster A, and N(c) represents the neighboring cells of a given cell c v<sub>c</sub> and x<sub>c</sub> denote the low-dimensional velocity and state vectors of cell c, respectively, and x<sub>c’</sub> denotes the state vector of its neighboring cell.

      As shown in Figure S2, TSvelo consistently achieves the highest accuracy across all simulation settings, particularly in scenarios with complex branching structures, which pose significant challenges for baseline methods.

      (2) Related to the above: since a ground truth is missing, the real data analyses need to be interpreted with caution. I recommend avoiding strong statements, such as "successfully captures the correct gene dynamics", or "accurately infer", in favour of milder statements supported by the data, such as "... aligns with the biological processes described" (as in page 12), or "results are compatible with current biological knowledge", etc...

      We thank the reviewer for this helpful comment. We agree that analyses on real datasets should be interpreted with appropriate caution because definitive ground truth is typically unavailable. Following the reviewer’s suggestion, we have revised the wording throughout the manuscript to avoid overly strong claims. For example, statements such as “successfully captures the correct gene dynamics” and “accurately infer” have been replaced with more cautious descriptions such as “consistent with known biological processes”.

      (3) Many methods perform RNA velocity analyses. While there is a brief description, I think it'd be useful to have a schematic summary (e.g., via a Table) of the main conceptual, mathematical, and computational characteristics of each approach.

      We thank the reviewer for this insightful suggestion. We agree that a structured summary of existing RNA velocity methods would improve clarity and accessibility. We have added a new summary table (Table S1) that systematically compares representative RNA velocity approaches in the supplementary information.

      (4) Related to the above: I struggled to identify the main conceptual novelty of TSvelo, compared to existing approaches. I recommend explaining this aspect more extensively.

      We thank the reviewer for this insightful comment. We agree that the conceptual novelty of TSvelo can be more clearly articulated.

      In the revised manuscript, we have expanded the discussion at the beginning of the Results section to explicitly highlight the key distinctions between TSvelo and existing approaches. Specifically, we now clarify that most existing RNA velocity methods predominantly focus on splicing dynamics and typically operate in a gene-wise manner, without capturing coordinated dynamics across genes. In contrast, TSvelo models the full cascade of transcriptional regulation, transcription, and splicing within a unified framework, and estimates RNA velocity jointly across all genes, thereby capturing their coordinated dynamics at the system level.

      (5) A computational benchmark is missing; I'd appreciate seeing the runtime and memory cost of all methods in a couple of datasets.

      We thank the reviewer for this helpful suggestion regarding computational benchmarking. In the revised manuscript, we have added a systematic comparison of runtime and GPU memory usage across TSvelo and ba methods using simulated datasets of increasing scale (600, 1200, and 1800 cells) on our NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 device with 24 GB memory.

      Table S2 shows differences in computational efficiency and resource requirements among methods. Specifically, classical methods such as scVelo and Dynamo exhibit very fast runtimes (10–24 seconds) and do not rely on GPU acceleration, reflecting their relatively lightweight modeling strategies. In contrast, deep learning–based approaches, including UniTVelo, cellDancer, and TSvelo, have higher computational costs due to their increased model complexity.

      TSvelo exhibits a stable GPU memory footprint (~1.26 GB) across different dataset sizes, indicating that its memory usage is primarily determined by model architecture rather than the number of cells. This level of memory consumption is well within the capacity of modern GPUs and does not pose practical limitations. In terms of runtime, TSvelo scales approximately linearly with dataset size. The higher computational cost of TSvelo is mainly due to its EM-style optimization procedure, where each M-step also involves multiple optimization updates to infer gene regulatory effects in a global model. This design enables TSvelo to explicitly incorporate regulatory priors and jointly model gene interactions, which is not supported by these baseline methods.

      To further improve runtime efficiency, TSvelo allows flexible control of the number of EM iterations. As shown in Figure S16 and Table S3, we evaluated performance under different iteration settings on the simulation dataset. The early stopping strategy employed in the EM framework of TSvelo, which will stop modeling if the loss is not further reduced in the last 3 iterations. Results show that convergence is typically achieved within 3 iterations for this dataset, and increasing the maximum number of iterations beyond this does not further change the results. Notably, even a single iteration already yields competitive performance, likely benefiting from the strong initialization based on unspliced-to-spliced temporal delay.

      Overall, these results highlight a trade-off between computational efficiency and modeling expressiveness. While TSvelo is more computationally demanding than classical approaches, it provides a more flexible framework for incorporating regulatory information and capturing complex gene interactions, which we believe justifies the additional computational cost in scenarios requiring accurate dynamical inference.

      (6) I think BayVel (mentioned above) should be added to the list of competing methods (both in the text and in the benchmarks). The package can be found here: https://github.com/elenasabbioni/BayVel_pkgJulia.

      We thank the reviewer for suggesting BayVel and for providing the repository link. We carefully review the available resources, including both the BayVel_pkgJulia and the BayVel_notebooks, and we appreciate the authors’ efforts in making their code and data publicly available.

      We note that BayVel repositories primarily provide scripts and data for reproducing the figures and results reported in their manuscript. However, at present, the available resources do not yet provide a complete guideline or standardized pipeline for applying BayVel to new datasets. To ensure a fair and reproducible comparison, we therefore tend to use BayVel results officially provided by the authors. We are grateful that the BayVel results on the pancreas dataset is released at BayVel_notebooks page: https://github.com/elenasabbioni/BayVel_notebooks/tree/main/real%20data/Pancreas/moments/output.

      Based on these results, we conducted comparisons across all methods on the pancreas dataset, with quantitative evaluations shown in Author response image 55. In each plot, methods are ranked in descending order of their mean values. Numbers at the bottom indicate the sample size for each metric. Statistical significance is assessed using a one-sided Mann–Whitney U test, where *****, ***, **, and * denote p < 0.00001, 0.0001 ≤ p < 0.001, 0.001 ≤ p < 0.01, and 0.01 ≤ p < 0.05, respectively.

      BayVel has now been included in the Introduction, and corresponding comparisons have been added in the revised manuscript.

      Author response image 5.

      The quantitative comparison between TSvelo and baseline approaches on the pancreas dataset. In each plot, methods are ranked in descending order of their mean values. Numbers at the bottom indicate the sample size for each metric. Significance is determined using a one-sided Mann–Whitney U test. *****, ****,***, ** and * represent p < 0.00001, 0.00001 ≤ p < 0.0001, 0.0001 ≤ p < 0.001, 0.001 ≤ p < 0.01, and 0.01 ≤ p < 0.05, respectively.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Please carefully proofread the text. Some typos:

      (1) Line 110: differentia -> differential.

      (2) Line 280: ".," to be corrected.

      (3) Line 566: optimize -> optimizes.

      We thank the reviewer for carefully proofreading the manuscript and for pointing out these typographical errors. We have corrected the identified typos in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Regarding Major Comment 1 in the Public Review, I contacted BayVel authors, who told me that they'll upload all their scripts here within a few days: https://github.com/elenasabbioni/BayVel_notebooks

      Thank you very much for reaching out to the BayVel authors. We sincerely appreciate the BayVel authors’ efforts to make their scripts and results publicly available through BayVel_notebooks. We believe this is a valuable contribution that will greatly benefit the community.

      We have followed the repository and have now included BayVel in the revised manuscript, with corresponding comparisons added to both the main text and the benchmarking results.

      (2) Page 9 mentions "consistency", "coherence", and "correctness". Instead of these qualitative (and potentially subjective) evaluations, I'd appreciate using quantitative metrics or visual descriptions when differences are visually clear.

      We thank the reviewer for this insightful comment. The terms “velocity consistency,” “in-cluster coherence,” and “cross-boundary correctness” used in our manuscript are not intended as subjective descriptions. They correspond to commonly used evaluation criteria in this field and have been adopted as quantitative metrics in previous studies, such as VeloAE[1] and UniTVelo[2]. We have incorporated the following updated definition into the Methods section.

      (1) Velocity consistency (VCon). We used the scvelo.velocity_confidence() function from scVelo to evaluate velocity consistency, interpreting the results as a measure of how consistent velocities are within neighboring cells. Velocity consistency is especially suitable for evaluating the RNA velocity modeling on single lineage. For each cell , the velocity consistency is calculated as follows:

      Where N (c) represents the neighboring cells of a given cell c v<sub>c</sub> v<sub>c’</sub> denote the low-dimensional velocity vectors of cell cand its neighboring cell c’.

      (2) Cross-boundary direction correctness (CBDir). Cross-boundary direction correctness assesses the accuracy of transitions from a source cluster to a target cluster by examining the boundary cells, and requires ground truth annotations. We directly run the function unitvelo.evaluate() provided in UniTVelo to obtain the Cross-boundary direction correctness. In detail, the CBDir is calculated as follows:

      Where C<sub>A</sub> denotes the set of cells in the target cluster A, and represents the neighboring cells of a given cell c v<sub>c</sub> v<sub>c’</sub> denote the low-dimensional velocity and state vectors of cell cand its neighboring cell c’.

      (3) Within-cluster velocity coherence (ICCoh). Within-cluster velocity coherence measures the coherence of velocities within a single cluster using a cosine similarity score between cell velocities. We applied the function unitvelo.evaluate() provided by UniTVelo to directly compute the within-cluster velocity coherence. Using the same notation as defined above, the CBDir is calculated as follows:

      (1) Qiao, C. & Huang, Y. Representation learning of RNA velocity reveals robust cell transitions. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 118, e2105859118 (2021).

      (2) Gao, M., Qiao, C. & Huang, Y. UniTVelo: temporally unified RNA velocity reinforces single-cell trajectory inference. Nature Communications 13, 6586 (2022).

      (3) At page 3, some objects are not defined after formula (3):

      ReLU finction, and w_gi

      Additionally, parenthesis of ReLU function should be bigger.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. In the revised manuscript, we have explicitly defined the ReLU activation function and clarified that w<sub>gi</sub> represents the regulatory weight of TF i on the target gene g. In addition, we have adjusted the formatting of Eq. (3) by enlarging the parentheses in the ReLU function to improve readability.

    1. eLife Assessment

      The authors present a solid study in the unique conditions of weightlessness providing evidence that movements carried out in 0g are underactuated. They further provide a thorough discussion based on computational modelling to address the question as to whether the CNS underestimates mass when programming movements in weightlessness. In all cases, the persistence of the observed effects in weightlessness has important implications for theories of motor adaptation.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      The authors have conducted substantial additional analyses to address the reviewers' comments. However, several key points still require attention. I was unable to see the correspondence between the model predictions and the data in the added quantitative analysis. In the rebuttal letter, the delta peak speed time displays values in the range of [20, 30] ms, whereas the data were negative for the 45{degree sign} direction. Should the reader directly compare panel B of Figure 6 with Figure 1E? The correspondence between the model and the data should be made more apparent in Figure 6. Furthermore, the rebuttal states that a quantitative prediction was not expected, yet it subsequently argues that there was a quantitative match. Overall, this response remains unclear.

      A follow-up question concerns the argument about strategic slowing. The authors argue that this explanation can be rejected because the timing of peak speed should be delayed, contrary to the data. However, there appears to be a sign difference between the model and the data for the 45{degree sign} direction, which means that it was delayed in this case. Did I understand correctly? In that regard, I believe that the hypothesis of strategic slowing cannot yet be firmly rejected and the discussion should more clearly indicate that this argument is based on some, but not all, directions. I agree with the authors on the importance of the mass underestimation hypothesis, and I am not particularly committed to the strategic slowing explanation, but I do not see a strong argument against it. If the conclusion relies on the sign of the delta peak speed, then the authors' claims are not valid across all directions, and greater caution in the interpretation and discussion is warranted. Regarding the peak acceleration time, I would be hesitant to draw firm conclusions based on differences smaller than 10 ms (Figures R3 and 6D).

      The authors state in the rebuttal that the two hypotheses are competing. This is not accurate, as they are not mutually exclusive and could even vary as a function of movement direction. The abstract also claims that the data "refutes" strategic slowing, which I believe is too strong. The main issue is that, based on the authors' revised manuscript, the lack of quantitative agreement between the model and the data for the mass underestimation hypothesis is considered acceptable because a precise quantitative match is not expected, and the predictions overall agree for some (though not all) directions and phases (excluding post-in). That is reasonable, but by the same logic, the small differences between the model prediction and the strategic slowing hypothesis should not be taken as firm evidence against it, as the authors seem to suggest. In practice, I recommend a more transparent and cautious interpretation to avoid giving readers the false impression that the evidence is decisive. The mass underestimation hypothesis is clearly supported, but the remaining aspects are less clear, and several features of the data remain unexplained.

      Comments on revised version.

      The authors have reworked the sections of the text where the narrative was too strong or binary wrt alternative interpretations. The result is well balanced. No further recommendation.

    3. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors describe an interesting study of arm movements carried out in weightlessness after a prolonged exposure to the so-called microgravity conditions of orbital spaceflight. Subjects performed radial point-to-point motions of the fingertip on a touch pad. The authors note a reduction in movement speed in weightlessness, which they hypothesize could be due to either an overall strategy of lowering movement speed to better accommodate the instability of the body in weightlessness or an underestimation of body mass. They conclude for the latter, mainly based on two effects. One, slowing in weightlessness is greater for movement directions with higher effective mass at the end effector of the arm. Two, they present evidence for increased number of corrective sub movements in weightlessness. They contend that this provides conclusive evidence to accept the hypothesis of an underestimation of body mass.

      Strengths:

      In my opinion, the study provides a valuable contribution, the theoretical aspects are well presented through simulations, the statistical analyses are meticulous, the applicable literature is comprehensively considered and cited and the manuscript is well written.

      Weaknesses:

      I nevertheless am of the opinion that the interpretation of the observations leaves room for other possible explanations of the observed phenomenon, thus weakening the strength of the arguments.

      I raised the following points in my original review, but I find that the authors have judiciously addressed these points through their various revisions.

      I believe that the article constitutes a valuable contribution and that the results and conclusions are certainly worthy of consideration by the human motor control community.

      (1) The authors model the movement control through equations that derive the input control variable in terms of the force acting on the hand and treating the arm as a second-order low pass filter (Eq. 13). Underestimation of the mass in the computation of a feedforward command would lead to a lower-than-expected displacement to that command. But it is not clear if and how the authors account for a potential modification of the time constants of the 2nd order system. The CNS does not effectuate movements with pure torque generators. Muscles have elastic properties that depend on their tonic excitation level, reflex feedback and other parameters. Indeed, Fisk et al.* showed variations of movement characteristics consistent with lower muscle tone, lower bandwidth and lower damping ratio in 0g compared to 1g. Could the variations in the response to the initial feedforward command be explained by a misrepresentation of the limbs damping and natural frequency, leading to greater uncertainty to the consequences of the initial command. This would still be an argument for un-adapted feedforward control of the movement, leading to the need for more corrective movements. But it would not necessarily reflect an underestimation of body mass.

      *Fisk, J. O. H. N., Lackner, J. R., & DiZio, P. A. U. L. (1993). Gravitoinertial force level influences arm movement control. Journal of neurophysiology, 69(2), 504-511.

      While the authors attempt to differentiate their study from previous studies where limb neuromechanical impedance was shown to be modified in weightlessness by emphasizing that in the current study the movements were rapid and the initial movement is "feedforward". But this incorrectly implies that the limb's mechanical response to the motor command is determined only by active feedback mechanisms. In fact:

      (a) All commands to the muscle pass through the motor neurons. These neurons receive descending activations related not only to the volitional movement, but also to the dynamic state of the body and the influence of other sensory inputs, including the vestibular system. A decrease in descending influences from the vestibular organs will lower the background sensitivity to all other neural influences on the motor neuron. Thus, the motor neuron may be less sensitive to the other volitional and reflexive synaptic inputs that it may receive.

      (b) Muscle tone plays a significant role in determining the force and the time course of the muscle contraction. In a weightless environment, where tonic muscle activity is likely to be reduced, there is the distinct possibility that muscles will react more slowly and with lower amplitude to an otherwise equivalent descending motor command, particularly in the initial moments before spinal reflexes come into play. These, and other neuronal mechanisms could lead to the "under-actuation" effect observed in the current study, without necessarily being reflective of an underestimation of mass per se.

      (2) The subject's body in weightless is much more sensitive to reaction forces in interactions with the environment in the absence of the anchoring effect of gravity pushing the body into the floor and in the absence of anticipatory postural adjustments that typically accompany upper-limb motions in Earth gravity in order to maintain an upright posture. The authors dismiss this possibility because the taikonauts were asked to stabilize their bodies with the contralateral hand. But the authors present no evidence that this was sufficient to maintain the shoulder and trunk at a strictly constant position, as is supposed by the simplified biomechanical model used in their optimal control framework. Indeed, a small backward motion of the shoulder would result in a smaller acceleration of the fingertip and a smaller extent of the initial ballistic motion of the hand with respect to the measurement device (the tablet), consistent with the observations reported in the study. Note that stability of the base might explain why 45º movements were apparently less affected in weightlessness, according to many of the reported analyses, including those related to corrective movements (Fig. 5 B, C, F; Fig. 6D), than the other two directions. If the trunk is being stabilized by the left arm, the same reaction forces on the trunk due to the acceleration of the hand will result in less effective torque on the trunk, given that the reaction forces act with a much smaller moment arm with respect to the left shoulder (the hand movement axis passes approximately through the left shoulder for the 45º target) compared to either the forward or rightward motions of the hand.

      (3) The above is exacerbated by potential changes in the frictional forces between the fingertip and the tablet. The movements were measured by having the subjects slide their finger on the surface of a touch screen. In weightlessness, the implications of this contact can be expected to be quite different than on the ground. While these forces may be low on Earth, the fact is that we do not know what forces the taikonauts used on orbit. In weightlessness, the taikonauts would need to actively press downward to maintain contact with the screen, while on Earth gravity will do the work. The tangential forces that resist movement due to friction might therefore be different in 0g. . Indeed, given the increased instability of the body and the increased uncertainty of movement direction of the hand, taikonauts may have been induced to apply greater forces against the tablet in order to maintain contact in weightlessness, which would in turn slow the motion of the finger on the table and increase the reaction forces acting on the trunk. This could be particularly relevant given that the effect of friction would interact with the limb in a direction-dependent fashion, given the anisotropy of the equivalent mass at the fingertip evoked by the authors.

      I feel that the authors have done an admirable job of exploring the how to explain the modifications to movement kinematics that they observed on orbit within the constraints of the optimal control theory applied to a simplified model of the human motor system. While I fully appreciate the value of such models to provide insights into question of human sensorimotor behaviour, to draw firm conclusions on what humans are actually experiencing based only on manipulations of the computational model, without testing the model's implicit assumptions and without considering the actual neurophysiological and biomechanical mechanisms, can be misleading. One way to do this could be to examine these questions through extensions to the model used in the simulations (changing activation dynamics of the torque generators, allowing for potential motion backward motion of the shoulder and trunk, etc.). A better solution would be to emulate the physiological and biomechanical conditions on Earth (supporting the arm against gravity to reduce muscle tone, placing the subject on a moveable base that requires that the body be stabilized with the other hand) in order to distinguish the hypothesis of an underestimation of mass vs. other potential sources of under-actuation and other potential effects of weightlessness on the body.

      In sum, my opinion is that the authors are relying too much on a theoretical model as a ground truth and thus overstate their conclusions. But to provide a convincing argument that humans truly underestimate mass in weightlessness, they should consider more judiciously the neurophysiology and biomechanics that fall outside the purview of the simplified model that they have chosen. If a more thorough assessment of this nature is not possible, then I would argue that a more measured conclusion of the paper should be 1) that the authors observed modifications to movement kinematics in weightlessness consistent with an under-actuation for the intended motion, 2) that a simplified model of human physiology and biomechanics that incorporates principles of optimal control suggest that the source of this under-actuation might be an underestimation of mass in the computation of an appropriate feedforward motor command, and 3) that other potential neurophysiological or biomechanical effects cannot be excluded due to limitations of the computational model.

    4. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      General recommendations (from the Reviewing Editor):

      The reviewers discussed the revision at length, and all were appreciative of the revisions to the paper. Nonetheless, they agreed that the evidence against alternative hypotheses was not yet decisive, and it may not be possible to provide the evidence needed given the difficulty of acquiring this data. Thus they feel that a more nuanced interpretation of the data and tempering of the conclusions is necessary. These points are described in more detail in the reviewer-specific comments in the Public reviews.

      We thank the editor and the reviewers for their constructive discussion. In this revision, we have adopted these recommendations: we have tempered our conclusions and removed binary framing, taking into consideration that other alternative explanations might exist. We have also expanded the Discussion to consider additional potential mechanisms and added corresponding limitations. We also changed the paper title to avoid strong inference; the new title is “Evidence that humans underestimate body mass in microgravity: kinematic signatures in reaching movements during spaceflight”.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      The authors have conducted substantial additional analyses to address the reviewers' comments. However, several key points still require attention. I was unable to see the correspondence between the model predictions and the data in the added quantitative analysis. In the rebuttal letter, the delta peak speed time displays values in the range of [20, 30] ms, whereas the data were negative for the 45{degree sign} direction. Should the reader directly compare panel B of Figure 6 with Figure 1E? The correspondence between the model and the data should be made more apparent in Figure 6. Furthermore, the rebuttal states that a quantitative prediction was not expected, yet it subsequently argues that there was a quantitative match. Overall, this response remains unclear.

      We thank the reviewer raising the question about Figure 6B. We would like to clarify that the phrase "quantitative match" in the summary of our previous rebuttal letter was a wording error; in fact, the subsequent detailed responses consistently and correctly described the comparison as qualitative. We apologize for the confusion this may have caused, and address this point below.

      First, we have revised the manuscript to clarify this point. We have added the following statement: "We note that these correlations evaluate the directional trend rather than the absolute magnitude of the effects; a precise quantitative match is not expected given the simplifications of the two-joint arm model." in the main text.

      Second, we have replaced Figure 6 with a revised version that presents model-predicted Δ values and experimentally observed Δ values side by side, allowing for a more intuitive visual comparison. As shown in the updated figure, the directional trends are broadly consistent amplitude changes and timing shifts are rank-ordered by movement direction in both model and data while the absolute magnitudes do not precisely match. We believe this layout makes the intended comparison more transparent.

      As discussed in our previous response, as noted above, a precise quantitative match is not expected given our model's simplifications, and this level of qualitative comparison is consistent with established practice in similar modeling studies (e.g., Gaveau et al., 2016).

      Regarding the negative Δ peak speed time at 45°: as shown in our statistical analyses (Figure 4A, Figure 5F), there was no significant timing change at 45°. The negative value reflects a small, non-significant mean difference. The key pattern that timing advance increases for directions associated with higher effective inertia holds for the 90° and 135° directions, which is the directional trend our analysis was designed to capture.

      A follow-up question concerns the argument about strategic slowing. The authors argue that this explanation can be rejected because the timing of peak speed should be delayed, contrary to the data. However, there appears to be a sign difference between the model and the data for the 45{degree sign} direction, which means that it was delayed in this case. Did I understand correctly? In that regard, I believe that the hypothesis of strategic slowing cannot yet be firmly rejected and the discussion should more clearly indicate that this argument is based on some, but not all, directions.

      I agree with the authors on the importance of the mass underestimation hypothesis, and I am not particularly committed to the strategic slowing explanation, but I do not see a strong argument against it. If the conclusion relies on the sign of the delta peak speed, then the authors' claims are not valid across all directions, and greater caution in the interpretation and discussion is warranted. Regarding the peak acceleration time, I would be hesitant to draw firm conclusions based on differences smaller than 10 ms (Figures R3 and 6D).

      The authors state in the rebuttal that the two hypotheses are competing. This is not accurate, as they are not mutually exclusive and could even vary as a function of movement direction. The abstract also claims that the data "refutes" strategic slowing, which I believe is too strong. The main issue is that, based on the authors' revised manuscript, the lack of quantitative agreement between the model and the data for the mass underestimation hypothesis is considered acceptable because a precise quantitative match is not expected, and the predictions overall agree for some (though not all) directions and phases (excluding post-in). That is reasonable, but by the same logic, the small differences between the model prediction and the strategic slowing hypothesis should not be taken as firm evidence against it, as the authors seem to suggest. In practice, I recommend a more transparent and cautious interpretation to avoid giving readers the false impression that the evidence is decisive. The mass underestimation hypothesis is clearly supported, but the remaining aspects are less clear, and several features of the data remain unexplained.

      We thank the reviewer for this critical assessment. We acknowledge that our previous framing was too binary, and we agree that strategic slowing and mass underestimation are not mutually exclusive. We would like to clarify our view: we did not find evidence supporting strategic slowing (e.g., slower reaction times, symmetric velocity/acceleration peaks), whereas we did find evidence supporting mass underestimation (asymmetric peaks, unchanged reaction times, more sub movements). This is not a case of rejecting one hypothesis to affirm the other; our data simply do not support one while providing positive evidence for the other. We do not rule out the possibility that both mechanisms could operate together, though we note that our data did not reveal evidence supporting strategic slowing in the current reaching task.

      We also agree that the lack of significant timing changes at 45° limits the scope of our argument against strategic slowing in that direction. However, the null result at 45° likewise cannot serve as positive evidence for strategic slowing either. As discussed in our previous revision and in Discussion, this null effect may arise because 45° reaches are predominantly single-joint (evidenced by curvature patterns characteristic), making them less suitable for modeling with a simplified two-link arm model than the 90° and 135° directions.

      In line with these considerations, we have made the following revisions to the manuscript:

      (1) We have removed binary framing throughout, replacing claims of mutual exclusivity or outright rejection of strategic slowing with more measured language. For example, "refutes" in the abstract has been changed to "These findings provide support for the body mass underestimation hypothesis while being inconsistent with the strategic slowing hypothesis." The two hypotheses are no longer presented as mutually exclusive, and strategic slowing is now characterized as insufficient to fully explain the direction-dependent pattern, rather than ruled out entirely.

      (2) We have revised the conclusion. The concluding paragraph no longer presents an either-or outcome. We describe the direction-dependent under-actuation pattern, note that it strongly supports mass underestimation while not being readily explained by a uniform strategic adjustment, and acknowledge that other factors may also contribute. A new limitation paragraph discusses the simplified nature of our model and acknowledges that other neurophysiological and biomechanical factors cannot be excluded.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      This study explores the underlying causes of the generalized movement slowness observed in astronauts in weightlessness compared to their performance on Earth. The authors argue that this movement slowness stems from an underestimation of mass rather than a deliberate reduction in speed for enhanced stability and safety.

      Overall, this is a fascinating and well-written work. The kinematic analysis is thorough and comprehensive. The design of the study is solid, the collected dataset is rare, and the model adds confidence to the proposed conclusions.

      Compared to the previous version, the authors have thoroughly addressed my concerns. The model is now clear and well-articulated, and alternative hypotheses have been ruled out convincingly. The paper is improved and suitable for publication in my opinion, making a significant contribution to the field.

      Strengths:

      Comprehensive analysis of a unique data set of reaching movement in microgravity

      Use of a sensible and well-thought experimental approach

      State-of-the-art analyses of main kinematic parameter

      Computational model simulations of arm reaching to test alternative hypotheses and support the mass underestimation one

      This work has no major weakness as it stands, and the discussion provides a fair evaluation of the findings and conclusions.

      We thank the reviewer for the supportive feedback, and we are grateful for the earlier comments that helped us improve the manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors describe an interesting study of arm movements carried out in weightlessness after a prolonged exposure to the so-called microgravity conditions of orbital spaceflight. Subjects performed radial point-to-point motions of the fingertip on a touch pad. The authors note a reduction in movement speed in weightlessness, which they hypothesize could be due to either an overall strategy of lowering movement speed to better accommodate the instability of the body in weightlessness or an underestimation of body mass. They conclude for the latter, mainly based on two effects. One, slowing in weightlessness is greater for movement directions with higher effective mass at the end effector of the arm. Two, they present evidence for increased number of corrective submovements in weightlessness. They contend that this provides conclusive evidence to accept the hypothesis of an underestimation of body mass.

      Strengths:

      In my opinion, the study provides a valuable contribution, the theoretical aspects are well presented through simulations, the statistical analyses are meticulous, the applicable literature is comprehensively considered and cited and the manuscript is well written.

      Weaknesses:

      I nevertheless am of the opinion that the interpretation of the observations leaves room for other possible explanations of the observed phenomenon, thus weakening the strength of the arguments.

      To strengthen the conclusions, I feel that the following points would need to be addressed:

      We thank the reviewer for the insightful critique and constructive suggestions. Following the reviewer's advice, we have re-framed our Introduction and Discussion to present mass underestimation as a plausible mechanism identified by our simplified model, while explicitly acknowledging other potential factors. Below we address each point in detail.

      (1) The authors model the movement control through equations that derive the input control variable in terms of the force acting on the hand and treating the arm as a second-order low pass filter (Eq. 13). Underestimation of the mass in the computation of a feedforward command would lead to a lower-than-expected displacement to that command. But it is not clear if and how the authors account for a potential modification of the time constants of the 2nd order system. The CNS does not effectuate movements with pure torque generators. Muscles have elastic properties that depend on their tonic excitation level, reflex feedback and other parameters. Indeed, Fisk et al.* showed variations of movement characteristics consistent with lower muscle tone, lower bandwidth and lower damping ratio in 0g compared to 1g. Could the variations in the response to the initial feedforward command be explained by a misrepresentation of the limbs damping and natural frequency, leading to greater uncertainty to the consequences of the initial command. This would still be an argument for un-adapted feedforward control of the movement, leading to the need for more corrective movements. But it would not necessarily reflect an underestimation of body mass.

      *Fisk, J. O. H. N., Lackner, J. R., & DiZio, P. A. U. L. (1993). Gravitoinertial force level influences arm movement control. Journal of neurophysiology, 69(2), 504-511.

      While the authors attempt to differentiate their study from previous studies where limb neuromechanical impedance was shown to be modified in weightlessness by emphasizing that in the current study the movements were rapid and the initial movement is "feedforward". But this incorrectly implies that the limb's mechanical response to the motor command is determined only by active feedback mechanisms. In fact:

      (a) All commands to the muscle pass through the motor neurons. These neurons receive descending activations related not only to the volitional movement, but also to the dynamic state of the body and the influence of other sensory inputs, including the vestibular system. A decrease in descending influences from the vestibular organs will lower the background sensitivity to all other neural influences on the motor neuron. Thus, the motor neuron may be less sensitive to the other volitional and reflexive synaptic inputs that it may receive.

      (b) Muscle tone plays a significant role in determining the force and the time course of the muscle contraction. In a weightless environment, where tonic muscle activity is likely to be reduced, there is the distinct possibility that muscles will react more slowly and with lower amplitude to an otherwise equivalent descending motor command, particularly in the initial moments before spinal reflexes come into play. These, and other neuronal mechanisms could lead to the "under-actuation" effect observed in the current study, without necessarily being reflective of an underestimation of mass per se.

      The reviewer raises an important point that the observed underactuation may not necessarily reflect mass underestimation per se. It could also arise from changes in the time constants of the control system, tonic muscle activation levels, vestibular descending inputs, or altered spinal reflex gains. We agree that our simplified model does not capture these neuromuscular factors, and we have made several revisions to address this concern.

      In the Discussion (paragraph 4), we have added a new substantive section discussing how reduced tonic muscle activity, diminished vestibular inputs to motor neurons, and altered muscle activation dynamics (Fisk et al., 1993) may contribute to the observed under-actuation independently of mass misestimation. We argue that while these factors likely affect motor output, they would be expected to produce a relatively uniform effect across movement directions, as tonic muscle activation and vestibular descending inputs are not specific to a particular reaching direction. In contrast, the direction-dependent pattern of our results with greater effects for directions involving higher effective mass is more naturally explained by a misrepresentation of inertial properties than by a uniform change in neuromuscular excitability. Nevertheless, we explicitly acknowledge that these mechanisms may act in concert with mass underestimation, and that our current data cannot fully disentangle them.

      Additionally, the paragraph discussing proprioceptive mechanisms (paragraph 6 of Discussion) now opens with the conditional framing "If mass underestimation contributes to the observed underactuation," and closes by noting that the same proprioceptive degradation could affect motor output through other pathways such as reducing tonic muscle activation or altering spinal reflex gains independent of any explicit misrepresentation of body mass.

      We have also added a new limitation (the fourth in the Limitations section) explicitly acknowledging that our model treats muscles as ideal torque generators and does not capture potential changes in muscle activation dynamics, damping, or reflex gains that may occur in microgravity. Future studies combining detailed musculoskeletal modeling with direct measurements of muscle activation, joint impedance, and trunk kinematics would be needed to distinguish between mass underestimation and other sources of underactuation.

      That said, the assumption of relatively preserved muscle properties is partly supported by the available evidence. A systematic review of simulated microgravity studies found that upper limb maximal voluntary contraction remained mostly unchanged for up to 45 days of unloading, and that upper limb muscles declined substantially more slowly than lower limb and trunk muscles (Winnard et al., 2019). A more recent review similarly reported that upper limb muscle outcomes are less affected by microgravity exposure (Bosutti et al., 2025). This is also consistent with our own unpublished observations in Chinese astronauts, which did not indicate an obvious decline in upper limb force output. While these findings do not rule out subtler changes in muscle tone or activation dynamics, they suggest that gross alterations in upper limb neuromuscular capacity are unlikely to be the primary driver of the underactuation we observed.

      Refs.

      Winnard, A., Scott, J., Waters, N., Vance, M., & Caplan, N. (2019). Effect of time on human muscle outcomes during simulated microgravity exposure without countermeasures—systematic review. Frontiers in physiology, 10, 1046.

      Bosutti, A., Ganse, B., Maffiuletti, N. A., Wüst, R. C., Strijkers, G. J., Sanderson, A., & Degens, H. (2025). Microgravity‐induced changes in skeletal muscle and possible countermeasures: What we can learn from bed rest and human space studies. Experimental Physiology.

      (2) The subject's body in weightless is much more sensitive to reaction forces in interactions with the environment in the absence of the anchoring effect of gravity pushing the body into the floor and in the absence of anticipatory postural adjustments that typically accompany upper-limb motions in Earth gravity in order to maintain an upright posture. The authors dismiss this possibility because the taikonauts were asked to stabilize their bodies with the contralateral hand. But the authors present no evidence that this was sufficient to maintain the shoulder and trunk at a strictly constant position, as is supposed by the simplified biomechanical model used in their optimal control framework. Indeed, a small backward motion of the shoulder would result in a smaller acceleration of the fingertip and a smaller extent of the initial ballistic motion of the hand with respect to the measurement device (the tablet), consistent with the observations reported in the study. Note that stability of the base might explain why 45º movements were apparently less affected in weightlessness, according to many of the reported analyses, including those related to corrective movements (Fig. 5 B, C, F; Fig. 6D), than the other two directions. If the trunk is being stabilized by the left arm, the same reaction forces on the trunk due to the acceleration of the hand will result in less effective torque on the trunk, given that the reaction forces act with a much smaller moment arm with respect to the left shoulder (the hand movement axis passes approximately through the left shoulder for the 45º target) compared to either the forward or rightward motions of the hand.

      The reviewer raises an important point about the potential influence of reaction forces on trunk and shoulder stability in microgravity. We have revised the relevant Discussion paragraph to address this concern more thoroughly.

      We would like to clarify that, in addition to stabilizing the body with the left hand grasping a fixed bar, the taikonauts’ feet were also constrained with foot straps, providing multi-point stabilization. Furthermore, the reviewer's trunk displacement hypothesis predicts that the 45° direction should be systematically less affected across all kinematic measures. However, while 45° did not show significant changes in the timing of kinematics peaks, it did show significant changes in movement duration, peak acceleration, and peak speed comparable to the other directions. This dissociation is difficult to reconcile with a uniform trunk displacement artifact, but is consistent with a direction-dependent inertial effect.

      We acknowledge that we did not directly measure trunk or shoulder kinematics, highlight that we did our best to provide multi-point stabilization in our setup, and we have added this as a limitation in the revised Discussion.

      (3) The above is exacerbated by potential changes in the frictional forces between the fingertip and the tablet. The movements were measured by having the subjects slide their finger on the surface of a touch screen. In weightlessness, the implications of this contact can be expected to be quite different than on the ground. While these forces may be low on Earth, the fact is that we do not know what forces the taikonauts used on orbit. In weightlessness, the taikonauts would need to actively press downward to maintain contact with the screen, while on Earth gravity will do the work. The tangential forces that resist movement due to friction might therefore be different in 0g. . Indeed, given the increased instability of the body and the increased uncertainty of movement direction of the hand, taikonauts may have been induced to apply greater forces against the tablet in order to maintain contact in weightlessness, which would in turn slow the motion of the finger on the table and increase the reaction forces acting on the trunk. This could be particularly relevant given that the effect of friction would interact with the limb in a direction-dependent fashion, given the anisotropy of the equivalent mass at the fingertip evoked by the authors

      We agree that in microgravity, taikonauts must actively press on the screen to maintain contact, potentially altering normal forces and thus friction compared to ground conditions. We have acknowledged this point in the revised Discussion. However, we note several reasons why friction is unlikely to be the dominant factor. First, the tablet uses a capacitive touchscreen, which registers touch through changes in electrical capacitance and does not require substantial normal force to maintain contact. Second, typical tangential friction forces during touchscreen interaction range from 0.1 to 0.5 N (Ayyildiz et al., 2018), which are small compared to the 10–15 N required to accelerate the arm during reaching. Third, touchscreen performance has been shown to be largely unaffected during long-duration spaceflight (Holden et al., 2022). Lastly but importantly, the friction hypothesis does not readily account for the direction-specific pattern of effects we observed. While we cannot exclude a contribution of altered friction, particularly in interaction with the direction-dependent effective mass, its magnitude makes it unlikely to account for the observed kinematic changes.

      Ref:

      Ayyildiz, M., Scaraggi, M., Sirin, O., Basdogan, C., & Persson, B. N. J. (2018). Contact mechanics between the human finger and a touchscreen under electroadhesion. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America, 115(50), 12668–12673.

      Holden, K., Greene, M., Vincent Cross, E., Sandor, A., Thompson, S., Feiveson, A., & Munson, B. (2023). Effects of long-duration microgravity and gravitational transitions on fine motor skills. Human Factors, 65(6), 1046-1058.

      I feel that the authors have done an admirable job of exploring the how to explain the modifications to movement kinematics that they observed on orbit within the constraints of the optimal control theory applied to a simplified model of the human motor system. While I fully appreciate the value of such models to provide insights into question of human sensorimotor behaviour, to draw firm conclusions on what humans are actually experiencing based only on manipulations of the computational model, without testing the model's implicit assumptions and without considering the actual neurophysiological and biomechanical mechanisms, can be misleading. One way to do this could be to examine these questions through extensions to the model used in the simulations (changing activation dynamics of the torque generators, allowing for potential motion backward motion of the shoulder and trunk, etc.). A better solution would be to emulate the physiological and biomechanical conditions on Earth (supporting the arm against gravity to reduce muscle tone, placing the subject on a moveable base that requires that the body be stabilized with the other hand) in order to distinguish the hypothesis of an underestimation of mass vs. other potential sources of under-actuation and other potential effects of weightlessness on the body.

      In sum, my opinion is that the authors are relying too much on a theoretical model as a ground truth and thus overstate their conclusions. But to provide a convincing argument that humans truly underestimate mass in weightlessness, they should consider more judiciously the neurophysiology and biomechanics that fall outside the purview of the simplified model that they have chosen. If a more thorough assessment of this nature is not possible, then I would argue that a more measured conclusion of the paper should be 1) that the authors observed modifications to movement kinematics in weightlessness consistent with an under-actuation for the intended motion, 2) that a simplified model of human physiology and biomechanics that incorporates principles of optimal control suggest that the source of this under-actuation might be an underestimation of mass in the computation of an appropriate feedforward motor command, and 3) that other potential neurophysiological or biomechanical effects cannot be excluded due to limitations of the computational model.

      We appreciate the reviewer's thoughtful assessment. We fully agree that a simplified computational model should not be treated as ground truth, and that the neurophysiology and biomechanics beyond the computational model must be carefully considered.

      As detailed in our responses above, we have substantially revised the Discussion to address each of these concerns—including new discussions of neuromuscular factors, more balanced treatment of trunk stability and friction, conditional framing of the mass underestimation interpretation, and a new limitation on model simplifications. The conclusion has been restructured following the reviewer's recommended framework.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      If possible and allowed, the authors are strongly encouraged to consider sharing this unique dataset. Making the data publicly available alongside the paper could foster future studies and further accelerate research in this area.

      We sincerely thank the reviewer for this suggestion. The ground control data and all analysis code will be made publicly available alongside the Version of Record.

      However, unfortunately, the raw in-flight data from the taikonaut cohort cannot be made publicly available due to confidentiality regulations of China's manned space program; access for scientific research requires approval from the China Astronaut Research and Training Center and can be requested through the corresponding author.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This study combines mathematical models and experimental data to analyse the emergence of heterogeneity within clonal NK cell responses during antigen-specific cell expansion. It comprises different experimental data and extensively explores various mathematical models, to study NK cell turnover during acute immune responses and homeostatic turnover within murine cytomegalovirus infection (MCMV). This solid study presents valuable findings and provides relevant insights on heterogeneous NK cell development.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The objective of this study was to infer the population dynamics (rates of differentiation, division and loss) and lineage relationships of NK cell subsets during an acute immune response and under homeostatic conditions.

      Strengths:

      A rich dataset and a detailed analysis of a particular class of stochastic models.

      Weaknesses: (relating to initial submission)

      The stochastic models used are quite simple; each population is considered homogeneous with first-order rates of division, death, and differentiation. In Markov process models such as these there is no dependence of cellular behavior on its history of divisions. In recent years models of clonal expansion and diversification, in the settings of T and B cells, have progressed beyond this picture. So I was a little surprised that there was no mention of the literature exploring the role of replicative history in differentiation (e.g. Bresser Nat Imm 2022), nor of the notion of family 'division destinies' (either in division number, or the time spent proliferating, as described by the Cyton and Cyton2 models developed by Hodgkin and collaborators; e.g. Heinzel Nat Imm 2017). The emerging view is that variability in clone (family) size arises may arise predominantly from the signals delivered at activation, which dictate each precursor's subsequent degree of expansion, rather than from the fluctuations deriving from division and death modeled as Poisson processes.

      As you pointed out, the Gerlach and Buchholz Science papers showed evidence for highly skewed distributions of family sizes, and correlations between family size and phenotypic composition. Is it possible that your observed correlations could arise if the propensity for immature CD27+ cells to differentiate into mature CD27- cells increases with division number? The relative frequency of the two populations would then also be impacted by differences in the division rates of each subset - one would need to explore this. But depending on the dependence of the differentiation rate on division number, there may be parameter regimes (and timepoints) at which the more differentiated cells can predominate within large clones even if they divide more slowly than their immature precursors. One might not then be able to rule out the two-state model. I would like to see a discussion or rebuttal of these issues.

      Comments on revised version.

      I am happy with the latest revisions that the authors have made.

    3. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The objective of this study was to infer the population dynamics (rates of differentiation, division and loss) and lineage relationships of NK cell subsets during an acute immune response and under homeostatic conditions.

      Strengths:

      A rich dataset and a detailed analysis of a particular class of stochastic models.

      Weaknesses: (relating to initial submission)

      The stochastic models used are quite simple; each population is considered homogeneous with first-order rates of division, death, and differentiation. In Markov process models such as these there is no dependence of cellular behavior on its history of divisions. In recent years models of clonal expansion and diversification, in the settings of T and B cells, have progressed beyond this picture. So I was a little surprised that there was no mention of the literature exploring the role of replicative history in differentiation (e.g. Bresser Nat Imm 2022), nor of the notion of family 'division destinies' (either in division number, or the time spent proliferating, as described by the Cyton and Cyton2 models developed by Hodgkin and collaborators; e.g. Heinzel Nat Imm 2017). The emerging view is that variability in clone (family) size arises may arise predominantly from the signals delivered at activation, which dictate each precursor's subsequent degree of expansion, rather than from the fluctuations deriving from division and death modeled as Poisson processes.

      As you pointed out, the Gerlach and Buchholz Science papers showed evidence for highly skewed distributions of family sizes, and correlations between family size and phenotypic composition. Is it possible that your observed correlations could arise if the propensity for immature CD27+ cells to differentiate into mature CD27- cells increases with division number? The relative frequency of the two populations would then also be impacted by differences in the division rates of each subset - one would need to explore this. But depending on the dependence of the differentiation rate on division number, there may be parameter regimes (and timepoints) at which the more differentiated cells can predominate within large clones even if they divide more slowly than their immature precursors. One might not then be able to rule out the two-state model. I would like to see a discussion or rebuttal of these issues.

      Comments on revisions:

      (1) The authors have put in a lot of effort to address the reviews and have explored alternative models carefully.

      We appreciate the reviewers’ comments.

      (2) In the sections relating to homeostasis and the endogenous response, as far as I can tell you are estimating net growth rates (the k parameters) throughout - this is to be expected if you're working with just cell numbers and no information relating to proliferation. In these sections there are many places where you refer to proliferation rates and death rates when I think you just mean net positive or net negative growth rates. It's important to be precise about this even if the language can get a bit repetitive. (These net rates of growth or loss relate to clonal rather than cellular dynamics, which may be worth explaining). Later, you do use data relating to dead cells, which in principle can be used to get independent measures of death rates, but these data were not used in the fitting.

      We have modified the main text to address the comment.

      (3) There is so much evidence that T and B cell differentiation are often contingent on division that it would be very reasonable to consider it as a possibility for NK cells too. (Differentiation could be asymmetric, as you explored, or simply symmetric with some probability per division). These processes can be cast into simple ODE models but no longer allow you to aggregate division and death rates - so for parameter estimation you need to add measures of proliferation (Ki67 or similar) or death. This may be worth some discussion?

      We have modified the main text (lines 242-245) to address the comment.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Wethington et al. investigated the mechanistic principles underlying antigen-specific proliferation and memory formation in mouse natural killer (NK) cells following exposure to mouse cytomegalovirus (MCMV), a phenomenon predominantly associated with CD8+ T cells. Using a stochastic modeling approach, the authors aimed to develop a quantitative model of NK cell clonal dynamics during MCMV infection. Starting from a single immature Ly49+CD27+ NK cell, a two-state linear model (with a death variant) explained the negative correlation between clone size at 8 dpi and the CD27+ fraction, but failed to reproduce the first and second moments of CD27+ and CD27− NK cell populations at 8 dpi. To address this limitation, the authors added an intermediate maturation state, yielding a three-stage model (CD27+Ly6C− → CD27−Ly6C− → CD27−Ly6C+) that fits the first and second moments under two constraints: CD27+ NK cells proliferate faster than CD27− NK cells, and clone size is negatively correlated with the CD27+ fraction (upper bound of −0.2). The model predicts high proliferation in the intermediate state and high death in mature CD27−Ly6C+ cells, and it was validated using Adams et al. (2021) NK reporter mice tracking CD27+/− populations after tamoxifen, allowing discrimination between bone marrow-derived and pre-existing peripheral NK cells. To test the prediction that mature CD27− NK cells have a higher death rate, the authors measured Ly49H+ NK cell viability in the mouse spleen at different time points post-MCMV infection. Data confirmed lower viability of mature (CD27−) than immature (CD27+) cells during days 4-8 post-infection, and a model variant supported that higher CD27− death increases their proportion in the dead cell compartment. Altogether, the authors propose a three-stage quantitative model of antigen-specific expansion and maturation of naïve Ly49H+ NK cells with the trajectory CD27+Ly6C− (immature) → CD27−Ly6C− (mature I) → CD27−Ly6C+ (mature II), highlighting high proliferation in the mature I state and increased death in the mature II state.

      Strengths:

      Models explaining correlations and first and second moments, supported by analytical investigations, stochastic simulations, and model selection, identify key processes in antigen-specific NK expansion and maturation. The work distinguishes expansion, contraction, and memory in NK cells from CD8+ T cells and informs NK therapy development.

      Weaknesses (relating to initial submission):

      The conclusions of this paper are largely supported by the available data. However, a comparative analysis with more recent works in the field would be desirable. Clarifications:

      (1) Initial Conditions and Grassmann Data: The Grassmann data is used solely as a constraint, while the simulated values of CD27+/CD27− cells could have been directly fitted to the Grassmann data, which assumes a 1:1 ratio of CD27+/CD27− at t = 0. This would allow an alternative initial condition rather than starting from a single CD27+ cell.

      (2) Correlation Coefficients in the Three-State Model: Although the parameter scan of the three-stage model (Figure 2) demonstrates the potential for negative correlations between colony size and the fraction of CD27+ cells, the calculated correlation coefficients using the fitted parameter values are not shown. Including these would validate that the fitted parameters lie in the negative-correlation regime.

      (3) Viability Dynamics and Adaptive Response: The authors measured the time evolution of CD27+/− dynamics and viability over 30 days post-infection (Figure 4). It would be valuable to test whether the three-state model can reproduce the adaptive response of CD27− cells to MCMV infection, particularly the observed drop in CD27− viability at 5 dpi and its rebound at 8 dpi. Demonstrating this would test whether the model can simultaneously explain viability dynamics and moment dynamics, and would enable sensitivity analysis of CD27− viability with respect to model parameters.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Minor points:

      (1) line 175 - Here I think you have only ruled out the two state model with no death, and not the two state model in general?

      Edited the sentence to address the comment.

      (2) Figures 2 and 5 - the phenotypes (CD27+ Ly6C-, etc.) should be clearly labeled above each cell type. Fig 1 could be improved in the same way.

      Done.

    1. eLife Assessment

      By investigating spine nanostructure and dynamics across multiple genetic mouse models for neurodevelopmental disorders, this important study has the potential to uncover convergent or divergent synaptic phenotypes that may be specifically associated with autism versus schizophrenia risk. The imaging and overall breadth of the methods are convincing. The purely in vitro nature of the study slightly limits the generalisability of the findings.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Kashiwagi et al. undertook a population analysis of dendritic spine nanostructure applied to the objective grouping of 8 mouse models of neuropsychiatric disorders. They report that spine morphology in cultured hippocampal neurons shows a higher similarity among schizophrenia mouse models (compared with autism spectrum disorder (ASD) mouse models) and identify an effect of Ecrg4 (encoding small secretory peptides) on spine dynamics and shape in these models.

      Strengths:

      The study developed a method for objectively comparing spine properties in primary hippocampal neuron cultures from 8 mouse models of psychiatric disorders at the population level using high-resolution structured illumination microscopy (SIM) imaging. This novel technique identified two distinct groups of mouse models according to the population-level spine properties: those with ASD-related gene mutations and those with schizophrenia-related gene mutations. Functional studies, including gene knockdown and overexpression experiments, identified an effect of Ecrg4 on the spine phenotype of the schizophrenia model mice.

      Weaknesses:

      The main weakness is that the study is wholly in vitro, using cultured hippocampal neurons. The authors present this as an advantage, however, arguing that spine morphology as measured in a reduced culture system can demonstrate direct effects of gene mutations on neuronal phenotypes in the absence of indirect influences from nonneuronal cells or specific environments.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Okabe and colleagues build on a super-resolution-based technique they have previously developed in cultured hippocampal neurons, improving the pipeline and using it to analyze spine nanostructure differences across 8 different mouse lines with mutations in autism or schizophrenia (Sz) risk genes/pathways. It is a worthy goal to try to use multiple models to examine potential convergent (or not) phenotypes, and the authors have made a good selection of models. They identify some key differences between the autism versus the Sz risk gene models, primarily that dendritic spines are smaller in Sz models and (mostly) larger in autism risk gene models. They then focus on three models (2 Sz - 22q11.2 deletion, Setd1a; 1 ASD - Nlgn3) for timelapse imaging of spine dynamics, and together with computational modelling provide a mechanistic rationale for the smaller spines in Sz risk models. Bulk RNA sequencing of all 8 model cultures identifies several differentially expressed genes which they go on to test in cultures, finding that ecgr4 is upregulated in several Sz models and its misexpression recapitulates spine dynamics changes seen in the Sz mutants, while knockdown rescues spine dynamics changes in the Sz mutants. Overall, these have the potential to be very interesting findings and useful for the field. My major concerns from the initial manuscript, especially regarding cherry picking and circularity have been addressed with revised analytical approaches. I have some remaining minor comments.

      (1) The comparison between two wild-type samples versus wild-type-mutant samples is helpful - I think this could be added to the manuscript.

      (2) For results of timelapse imaging - please spell out in the results section the direction of change (lines 270 - 277).

      (3) Using linear mixed effect models for statistical analysis is a significant improvement. While a sample size (n) of mice = 3 is not ideal, I think given the multiple different mouse lines used and intensity of analysis, this is probably the best that can be done, although further validation in larger samples eventually is to be hoped for.

      (4) The revised text is much improved, but I still think the authors should be upfront somewhere in the text that the schizophrenia-associated genes can only confer biased risk for schizophrenia (and that the clinical phenotype can also include autism). As I said before, I think this is the best we can do and I agree with their choices, but it is important not to overstate the link. The differences they see make it clear that these are still relevant distinctions.

    4. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Kashiwagi et al. undertook a population analysis of dendritic spine nanostructure applied to the objective grouping of 8 mouse models of neuropsychiatric disorders. They report that spine morphology in cultured hippocampal neurons shows a higher similarity among schizophrenia mouse models (compared with autism spectrum disorder (ASD) mouse models), and identify an effect of Ecrg4 (encoding small secretory peptides) on spine dynamics and shape in these models.

      Strengths:

      The study developed a method for objectively comparing spine properties in primary hippocampal neuron cultures from 8 mouse models of psychiatric disorders at the population level using high-resolution structured illumination microscopy (SIM) imaging. This novel technique identified two distinct groups of mouse models according to the population-level spine properties: those with ASD-related gene mutations and those with schizophreniarelated gene mutations. Functional studies, including gene knockdown and overexpression experiments, identified an effect of Ecrg4 on the spine phenotype of the schizophrenia model mice.

      We thank the reviewer for finding our strategy novel and useful for identifying molecules associated with the spine phenotype in schizophrenia-related mouse models.

      Weaknesses:

      The main weakness is that the study is wholly in vitro, using cultured hippocampal neurons. The authors present this as an advantage, however, arguing that spine morphology as measured in a reduced culture system can demonstrate direct effects of gene mutations on neuronal phenotypes in the absence of indirect influences from non-neuronal cells or specific environments.

      We appreciate this reviewer's concern about the limitation of cultured hippocampal neurons in extracting disease-related spine phenotypes. While we fully recognize this limitation, we consider that this in vitro system has several advantages that contribute to translational research on mental disorders.

      First, our culture system has been shown to support the development of spine morphology similar to that of the hippocampal CA1 excitatory synapse in vivo. High-resolution imaging techniques confirmed that the in vitro spine structure was highly preserved compared with in vivo preparations (Kashiwagi et al., Nature Communications, 2019). The present study used the same culture system and SIM imaging. Therefore, the difference we detected in samples derived from disease models is likely to reflect impairment of molecular mechanisms underlying native structural development in vivo.

      Second, super-resolution imaging of thousands of spines in tissue preparations under precisely controlled conditions cannot be practically applied using currently available techniques. The advantage of our imaging and analytical pipeline is its reproducibility, which enabled us to compare the spine population data from eight different mouse models without normalization.

      Third, a reduced culture system can demonstrate the direct effects of gene mutations on synapse phenotypes, independent of environmental influences. This property is highly advantageous for screening chemical compounds that rescue spine phenotypes. Neuronal firing patterns and receptor functions can also be easily controlled in a culture system. The difference in spine structure between ASD- and schizophrenia-related mouse models is valuable information to establish a drug screening system.

      Fourth, establishing an in vitro system for evaluating synapse phenotypes could reduce the need for animal experiments. Researchers should be aware of the 3Rs principles. In the future, combined with differentiation techniques for human iPS cells, our in vitro approach will enable the evaluation of disease-related spine phenotypes without the need for animal experiments. The effort to establish a reliable culture system should not be eliminated.

      We modified our text to have a balanced discussion on both advantages and disadvantages of the in vitro culture system in the study of mental disorder mouse models, as follows:

      "Finally, while the spine phenotype identified in the human postmortem brain undoubtedly resulted from complex interactions among genetic background, environmental influences, and regulation by non-neuronal cells, data from pure neuronal cultures are more likely to reflect the direct effects of schizophrenia-related gene mutations on synaptic functions. This property may be advantageous for identifying synaptic molecules that regulate synapse phenotypes in schizophrenia-related mouse models. However, the phenotype observed in the culture system requires confirmation using in vivo experiments of mouse models or human tissue samples. Efficient in vitro screening combined with reliable in vivo evaluation of synapses will facilitate translational research on mental disorders."

      Another weakness is that CaMKIIαK42R/K42R mutant mice are presented as a schizophrenia model, the authors justifying this by saying that "CaMKII-related signaling pathway disruption has been implicated in the working memory deficits found in schizophrenia patients". Since mutations in CAMK2A cause autosomal dominant intellectual developmental disorder-53 (OMIM 617798) and autosomal recessive intellectual developmental disorder-63 (OMIM 618095), and mice carrying the CAMK2A E183V mutation exhibit ASD-related synaptic and behavioral phenotypes (PMID: 28130356), I think it's stretching credibility to refer to the CaMKIIαK42R/K42R mice as a schizophrenia model.

      We agree with this reviewer that CAMK2A mutations in humans are linked to multiple mental disorders, including developmental disorders, ASD, and schizophrenia. Association of gene mutations with the categories of mental disorders is not straightforward, as the symptoms of these disorders also overlap with each other. For the CaMKIIα K42R/K42R mutant, we considered the following points in its characterization as a model of mental disorder. Analysis of CaMKIIα +/- mice in Dr. Tsuyoshi Miyakawa's lab has provided evidence for the reduced CaMKIIα in schizophrenia-related phenotypes (Yamasaki et al., Mol Brain 2008; Frankland et al., Mol Brain Editorial 2008). It is also known that the CaMKIIα R8H mutation in the kinase domain is linked to schizophrenia (Brown et al., 2021). Both CaMKIIα R8H and CaMKIIα K42R mutations are located in the N-terminal domain and eliminate kinase activity. On the other hand, the representative CaMKIIα E183V mutation identified in ASD patients exhibits unique characteristics, including reduced kinase activity, decreased protein stability and expression levels, and disrupted interactions with ASD-associated proteins such as Shank3 (Stephenson et al., 2017). Importantly, reduced dendritic spines in neurons expressing CaMKIIα E183V is a property opposite to that of the CaMKIIα K42R/K42R mutant, which showed increased spine density (Koeberle et al. 2017).

      References related to this discussion.

      (1) Yamasaki et al., Mol Brain. 2008 DOI: 10.1186/1756-6606-1-6

      (2) Frankland et al. Mol Brain. 2008 DOI: 10.1186/1756-6606-1-5

      (3) Stephenson et al., J Neurosci. 2017 DOI: 10.1523/JNEUROSCI.2068-16.2017

      (4) Koeberle et al. Sci Rep. 2017 DOI: 10.1038/s41598-017-13728-y

      (5) Brown et al., iScience. 2021 DOI: 10.1016/j.isci.2021.103184

      We fully agree with the reviewer that different CAMK2A mutations likely cause distinct phenotypes observed in the broad spectrum of mental disorders. In the revised manuscript, we include a discussion of the relevant literature to categorize this mouse model appropriately.

      "CaMKII-related signaling pathway disruption has been implicated in the working memory deficits found in schizophrenia patients [45,46]. CAMK2A mutations in humans are linked to multiple mental disorders, including developmental disorders, ASD, and schizophrenia [47]. The K42R mutation of CAMK2A does not correspond to any known human genetic variant, but the CAMK2A R8H mutation is linked to schizophrenia [48]. Both R8H and K42R mutations in the N-terminal domain of CaMKIIα eliminate kinase activity; these mutations may have a similar impact on human mental disorders."

      Although the manuscript is largely well written, there are some instances of ambiguous/unspecific language. This extends to the title (Decoding Spine Nanostructure in Mental Disorders Reveals a Schizophrenia-1 Linked Role for Ecrg4), which gives no indication that the work was in vitro on cultured neurons derived from mouse models.

      We appreciate the reviewer for pointing out the lack of information about the experimental system in the title of this manuscript. According to the suggestion of the reviewer, we modified the title as "Decoding spine nanostructure in cultured neurons derived from mouse models of mental disorder reveals a schizophrenia-linked role for Ecrg4".

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Okabe and colleagues build on a super-resolution-based technique that they have previously developed in cultured hippocampal neurons, improving the pipeline and using it to analyze spine nanostructure differences across 8 different mouse lines with mutations in autism or schizophrenia (Sz) risk genes/pathways. It is a worthy goal to try to use multiple models to examine potential convergent (or not) phenotypes, and the authors have made a good selection of models. They identify some key differences between the autism versus the Sz risk gene models, primarily that dendritic spines are smaller in Sz models and (mostly) larger in autism risk gene models. They then focus on three models (2 Sz - 22q11.2 deletion, Setd1a; 1 ASD - Nlgn3) for time-lapse imaging of spine dynamics, and together with computational modelling provide a mechanistic rationale for the smaller spines in Sz risk models. Bulk RNA sequencing of all 8 model cultures identifies several differentially expressed genes, which they go on to test in cultures, finding that ecgr4 is upregulated in several Sz models and its misexpression recapitulates spine dynamics changes seen in the Sz mutants, while knockdown rescues spine dynamics changes in the Sz mutants. Overall, these have the potential to be very interesting findings and useful for the field. However, I do have a number of major concerns.

      We thank the reviewer for evaluating our findings as potentially very interesting and useful.

      (1) The main finding of spine nanostructure changes is done by carrying out a PCA on various structural parameters, creating spine density plots across PC1 and PC2, and then subtracting the WT density plot from the mutant. Then, spines in the areas with obvious differences only are analyzed, from which they derive the finding that, for example, spine sizes are smaller. However, this seems a circular approach. It is like first identifying where there might be a difference in the data, then only analyzing that part of the data. I welcome input from a statistician, but to me, this is at best unconventional and potentially misleading. I assume the overall means are not different (although this should be included), but could they look at the distribution of sizes and see if these are shifted?

      We appreciate the reviewer's concern regarding our analysis of spine population data. The intention of pre-selecting the areas showing differences between wild-type and mutant was to make a direct comparison between two subareas (one is enriched with wild-type spines and the other is enriched with mutant spines) and clarify that the spines of schizophreniarelated mouse models were smaller than wild-type spines. Conventional methods of comparing the total spine population using simple size parameters are not useful for this purpose, as shown in Supplementary Figure 2.

      To clarify the reviewer's concern, we revised the analysis of the spine population data for both Figure 3 and Figure 8.

      Figure 3: We first divided the feature space projected onto PC1 and PC2 into four areas with distinct structural properties: (1) small and short, (2) small and long, (3) large and short, and (4) large and long. Next, we calculated the normalized spine counts in the four areas for both wild-type and mutant spines and obtained the relative ratio (mutant/wild-type) for each area. As we performed three independent SIM imaging experiments (in one, we imaged both wild type and mutant culture dishes prepared from the same pregnant mouse), there are three independent datasets from 8 mouse models.

      We found that the spine ratio (mutant/wild-type) only in area 2 (small and long spines) differed significantly between genotypes. This result is shown in Fig. 3 and explained in the text. The spine ratios in areas 1 and 3 did not show a clear relationship to the genotypes, while the ratio in area 4 showed the opposite trend to that in area 2. The opposite trend between areas 2 and 4 indicates enrichment of both small and long spines in schizophrenia-related mouse models, consistent with our previous analysis.

      Figure 8: In this analysis, we aimed to evaluate the rescue effect of Ecrg4 shRNA relative to that of control shRNA. If Ecrg4 shRNA is effective, the spine population enriched in the control shRNA condition should be reduced in the Ecrg4 shRNA condition. To confirm this point in the revised manuscript, we first defined areas in the projected PC1-PC2 plane showing either enrichment or depletion of spines in the control shRNA condition (spine numbers increasing or decreasing by more than 3 × SD). We next measured the difference in spine numbers between the control and Ecrg4 shRNA conditions in either enriched or depleted areas. The expectation is that Ecrg4 shRNA treatment reduces the extent of both enrichment and depletion. The effect was significant in both the 22qdel and Setd1a mouse models, as indicated by permutation tests. This analysis was explained in the revised manuscript.

      (2) Despite extracting 64 parameters describing spine structure, only 5 of these seemed to be used for the PCA. It should be possible to use all parameters and show the same results. More information on PC1 and PC2 would be helpful, given that the rest of the paper is based on these - what features are they related to?

      We thank the reviewer for the advice on providing the rationale for parameter selection in PCA. We divided spines into 160-nm segments along their long axis, and the spine segments were used to calculate the 64 parameters, which include volume of each spine segment (20 segments), convex hull volume of each spine segment (20 segments), and convex hull ratio of each spine segment (20 segments). As most spines are shorter than 0.16 × 20 =3.2 μm, these segment-related parameters contain a large fraction of zero values, which affect the proper calculation of principal components. Therefore, we selected two parameters that reflect the principal structural features (length and volume), together with three other parameters that were mutually independent and also independent from the first two parameters (pairwise correlation coefficients < 0.3). These selection criteria were described in the original manuscript. We also confirmed that PCA using all 64 parameters yields a cross correlation map similar to that shown in Fig. 2B.

      Author response image 1.

      We provided additional information in the Materials and Methods section of the revised manuscript.

      As described previously, the pattern of four areas with distinct spine structures (1. small and short, 2. small and long, 3. large and short, 4. large and long) supports the idea that the PC1PC2 plane reflects the relationship between spine volume and length (Fig. 3A and B).

      These specific features could then be analyzed in the full dataset, without doing the cherry picking above.

      We provided the dataset for the relative enrichment of spine counts across four areas of the PC1-PC2 plane in Fig. 3A and B. This analysis provides a comprehensive view of spine population properties related to spine volume and length, without relying on a pre-set region of interest.

      It would also be helpful to demonstrate whether PC1 and 2 differ across groups - for example, the authors could break their WT data into 2 subsets and repeat the analysis.

      We noticed differences in the pattern of spine distribution across the PC1-PC2 planes in each experiment. The subtraction of the distributional data between wild-type and mutant samples effectively cancels out such differences. In general, the difference between two wild-type samples is smaller than that between wild-type and mutant samples, as shown in Author response image 2.

      Author response image 2.

      We added a description of variation across groups to the revised manuscript.

      (3) Throughout the paper, the 'n' used for statistical analysis is often spine, which is not appropriate. At a minimum, cell should be used, but ideally a nested mixed model, which would take into account factors like cell, culture, and animal, would be preferable. Also, all of these factors should be listed, with sufficient independent cultures.

      We agree that nested mixed models are more appropriate for evaluating genotype effects in most of our datasets. We confirm that the results of statistical analysis using nested mixed models were consistent with our previous conclusions in most cases.

      Figure 3: We performed three independent primary cultures of embryonic hippocampal tissue with genotypes of both wild-type and mutant from the same pregnant mice for each mouse model. In our new Figure 3, each data point represents an independent culture experiment, and group comparisons were performed using one-way ANOVA followed by Tukey's post hoc test. In this analysis, statistical analysis using neurons as units of 'n' is not possible, as the number of spines measured from a single neuron is insufficient to generate the density map shown in Figure 3. The statistical analysis was described in the revised text. The details of experimental conditions related to Figure 3 are provided in Supplementary Table 1.

      Figure 5A-C: We analyzed spine turnover rate using a linear mixed-effects model with genotype as a fixed effect and plate, cell, and dendrite as nested random effects. In both 22q deletion model and Setd1a model, there were significant effects of genotype (F(1,25) = 5.79, p = 0.024 for 22q deletion model and F(1,22) = 7.33, p = 0.013 for Setd1a model). In contrast, Nlgn3 mutant neurons did not show a significant difference (F(1,14) = 1.35, p = 0.26). This analysis was described in the revised text.

      Figure 5D-F: Spine lifetime was analyzed using a linear mixed-effects model accounting for the hierarchical structure of the data (spines nested within dendrites, cells, and culture plates). The analysis revealed a significant effect of genotype in both 22q deletion mutant and Setd1a mutant (22qdel mutant; F(1,336) =5.33, p=0.022, Setd1a mutant; F(1,282)=6.38, p=0.012 ). The neurons of both mutants exhibited significantly longer spine lifetimes compared with wild-type neurons (22qdel mutant; ratio = 1.28, 95% CI 1.04–1.58, Setd1a mutant; ratio = 1.35, 95% CI 1.07–1.70). In contrast, Nlg3 mutation did not significantly alter spine lifetime (ratio = 0.86, 95% CI 0.61–1.22; F(1,220)=0.69, p=0.41). This analysis was described in the revised text.

      Figure 5G-I: Spine volume trajectories were analyzed using linear mixed-effects models incorporating nested random effects (spine/dendrite/cell/culture plate) to account for the hierarchical structure of the data. In the 22q deletion model, newly formed spines were significantly smaller than those in wild-type neurons (genotype effect: p < 0.001). The spines in Setd1a mutant neurons also displayed significantly smaller volume than those in wild-type neurons (p < 10<sup>-7</sup>). There were also differences in the temporal profiles of spine growth in these two mutants (p < 0.001). In contrast, newly formed spines in the Nlgn3 mutant neurons were significantly larger than those in wild-type neurons (p < 10<sup>-4</sup>) with preserved time-course of spine growth. This analysis was described in the revised text.

      Figure 5J-L: Similar analyses using linear mixed-effects models incorporating nested random effects (spine within dendrite within cell within culture plate) identified significantly smaller initial spine size in the 22q deletion model (p < 10<sup>⁻6</sup>), while no significant differences in the initial spine volume were found for Setd1a mutants. The temporal trajectories of spine shrinkage before their loss were also not significantly altered in both 22qdel and Setd1a mutants. The Nlg3 mutant showed a significantly different time-course of spine shrinkage (p < 0.05), while the initial spine size was not altered. This analysis was described in the revised text.

      Figure 7A overexpression dataset: We analyzed plate-averaged lifetime values using a linear mixed-effects model with treatment as a fixed effect. There exists a significant main effect of treatment (F(3,8) = 4.59, p = 0.038), with post hoc examination showing a significant increase in lifetime by Ecrg4 overexpression (β = 0.49 ± 0.16 SE, t(8) = 3.16, p = 0.013). Figure 7A shRNA dataset: We also applied a linear mixed-effects model for plate-averaged lifetime values with treatment as a fixed effect. The analysis revealed no significant effect of treatment (F(2,6) = 0.29, p = 0.76).

      The analyses of overexpression and shRNA datasets were described in the revised text.

      Figure 8: As in Figure 3, we performed three independent primary cultures of embryonic hippocampal tissue with genotypes of both wild-type and mutant from the same pregnant mice for each mouse model. The culture plates were transfected with either a control shRNA or an Ecrg4 shRNA construct. Each data point represents an independent culture experiment, and the effect of Ecrg4 shRNA relative to that of control shRNA was evaluated using a permutation test. The data analysis was described in the revised text. The details of experimental conditions related to Figure 8 are provided in Supplementary Table 1.

      (4) The authors should confirm that all mutants are also on the C57BL/6J background, and clarify whether control cultures are from littermates (this would be important). Also, are control versus mutant cultures done simultaneously? There can be significant batch effects with cultures.

      The mutant mice we used in this study are on C57BL/6J or C57BL/6N background. It is known that C57BL/6J or C57BL/6N mice exhibit distinct phenotypes across a range of physiological, biochemical, and behavioral systems. However, it is less likely that our analysis is affected by differences between C57BL/6J and C57BL/6N, as we compared wild-type and mutant littermates on the same genetic background. This experimental design can also reduce the batch effects with different culture preparations. This point was described in the revised text.

      (5) The spine analysis uses cultures from 18-22 DIV - this is quite a large range. It would be worth checking whether age is a confounder or correlated with any parameters / principal components.

      We described in the method sections that culture samples were processed for imaging at 18-22 DIV. However, all the SIM imaging experiments for eight mutant mouse models were performed on samples fixed at DIV 19. The wide range of imaging experiments (DIV 18-22) includes test samples we used to optimize imaging conditions. In the revised manuscript, we specified the timing of SIM imaging.

      (6) The computational modelling is interesting, but again, I am concerned about some circularity. Parameter optimization was used to identify the best fit model that replicated the spine turnover rates, so it is somewhat circular to say that this matched the observations when one of these is the turnover rate.

      We appreciate the reviewer's comment on some circularity of the argument. We agree that the turnover rate is already incorporated into the simulation model and is not an appropriate criterion for the evaluation. We modified the text accordingly.

      It is more convincing for spine density and size, but why not go back and test whether parameter differences are actually seen - for example, it would be possible to extract the probability of nascent spine loss, etc.

      We thank the reviewer for giving this important suggestion. The probability of nascent spine loss is an important parameter, and we initially attempted to estimate it from the original data set. However, the upper limit of our time-lapse imaging is 24 h, which is insufficient to distinguish stable and nascent spines clearly. The difficulty of extracting all the necessary parameters for spine remodeling is our motivation for starting this computational modelling.

      More compelling would be to repeat the experiments and see if the model still fits the data. In the interpretation (line 314-318) it is stated that '... reduced spine maturation rate can account for the three key properties of schizophrenia-related spines...', which is interesting if true, but it has just been stated that the probability of spine destabilization is also higher in mutants (line 303) - the authors should test whether if the latter is set to be the same as controls whether all the findings are replicated.

      As suggested by the reviewer, we set the probability of spine destabilization equal across wild-type and mutant models and repeated the simulations. The results indicate that this modification has small effects on spine density (0.61 vs 0.62), spine turnover rate (0.22 vs 0.21), fraction of small spines (0.21 vs 0.20), and mean spine size (0.37 vs 0.36). We described this point in the revised manuscript.

      (7) No validation for overexpression or knockdown is shown, although it is mentioned in the methods - please include.

      As suggested by the reviewer, we validated overexpression and knockdown. The results are summarized in Supplementary Figure 8.

      Supplementary Figure 8A-C shows the immunocytochemistry of anti-Ecrg4, anti-Cip4, and anti-NPAS4 for the confirmation of overexpression of these molecules.

      Supplementary Figure 8D-E shows the confirmation of the appropriate size of exogenously expressed Ecrg4, Cip4, and NPAS4 by immunoblotting. (previous Supplementary Figure 10F is now Supplementary Figure 8E).

      Supplementary Figure 8F-H indicates the efficient knockdown of exogenously expressed Met-GFP, ARHGAP15-GFP, and Ecrg4-HA by respective shRNA constructs in COS-7 cells. (previous Supplementary Figure 10G is now Supplementary Figure 8H)

      Also, for the knockdown, a scrambled shRNA control would be preferable.

      We used Stealth RNAi Negative Control Duplexes (Invitrogen) as the shRNA control in this study. To confirm that this RNAi sequence does not affect spine turnover, we performed timelapse imaging of neurons transfected with GFP alone or with GFP and the Stealth RNAi Negative Control. No detectable change in spine turnover was observed (Supplementary Figure 8I), indicating that this RNAi control sequence is suitable for our study.

      (8) The finding regarding ecgr4 is interesting, but showing that some ecgr4 is expressed at boutons and spines and some in DCVs is not enough evidence to suggest that actively involved in the regulation of synapse formation and maturation (line 356).

      To reveal the active roles of Ecrg4 in spine regulation, we exogenously applied a synthetic Ecrg4 peptide to wild-type neurons and monitored both spine density and turnover rate after Ecrg4 application. The Ecrg4 application increased the spine turnover rate, whereas samples treated with the scrambled peptide did not. This result supports the active role of Ecrg4 in regulating spine turnover. The data were added as Supplementary Figures 9F and G.

      (9) The same caveats that apply to the analysis also apply to the ecgr4 rescue. In addition, while for 22q the control shRNA mutant vs WT looks vaguely like Figure 2, setd1a looks completely different.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out the apparent difference in the pattern of spine population data between Figure 2 and Figure 8. We performed SIM analysis using DiI-labeled neurons in Figure 2, whereas the data in Figure 8 are derived from GFP-expressing neurons. The images of cell-surface labeling and cytoplasmic labeling cannot be analyzed in the same way, as it is necessary to adjust parameters in SIM image processing and PCA-based dimensional reduction. Consequently, the distribution of the spine population projected onto the PC1-PC2 plane differs between DiI-labeled neurons and GFP-expressing neurons. To facilitate the comparison of PCA analysis applied to GFP-expressing neurons, we replaced the weight matrix for GFP-expressing neurons with that previously calculated for the DiIlabeled neurons. This adjustment increased the similarity of the data distributions shown in Figures 2 and 8. The explanation for the different patterns in the spine population map between Figure 2 and Figure 8 was added to the revised text. The related explanation for the data processing was described in the Materials and Methods.

      And if rescued, surely shRNA in the mutant should now resemble control in WT, so there shouldn't be big differences, but in fact, there are just as many differences as comparing mutant vs wild-type? Plus, for spine features, they only compare mutant rescue with mutant control, but this is not ideal - something more like a 2-way ANOVA is really needed. Maybe input from a statistician might be useful here?

      We appreciate the reviewer's important comment and agree that the analytical approach used in the original manuscript was not optimal. We therefore revised our analysis to examine whether the difference observed between wild-type and mutant neurons was reduced by suppression of Ecrg4 expression.

      To this end, we first identified two regions in the PC1–PC2 plane where mutant spines were either enriched or depleted relative to wild-type neurons (Areas A and B). We then counted the number of spines located in Areas A and B in control shRNA-treated mutant neurons (normalized spine counts XA and XB). Next, we quantified spine counts in the same areas using data from Ecrg4-suppressed mutant neurons (normalized spine counts YA and YB). If XA > YA and XB < YB, suppression of Ecrg4 would indicate a shift toward rescue of the phenotype observed in control shRNA-treated mutant neurons. Indeed, the datasets were consistent with this shift in relative spine counts.

      To determine whether these differences exceeded those expected from random variation in spine counts, we performed a permutation test. Specifically, spine identities were randomly shuffled between the two conditions while preserving the total number of spines in each dataset. The observed differences were then compared with the distribution obtained from the permuted datasets to assess statistical significance.

      We found that all three culture replicates showed statistical significance in both areas A and B for both the 22qdel and Setd1a mutations. This analysis is described in the Result section.

      (10) Although this is a study entirely focused on spine changes in mouse models for Sz, there is no discussion (or citation) of the various studies that have examined this in the literature. For example, for Setd1a, smaller spines or reduced spine densities have been described in various papers (Mukai et al, Neuron 2019; Chen et al, Sci Adv 2022; Nagahama et al, Cell Rep 2020).

      We appreciate the reviewer's suggestion to include a discussion of schizophrenia-related mouse models. We added more information related to the Setd1a mouse model to the Discussion section.

      "Population-level spine properties were more homogeneous in schizophrenia models (those with gene mutations implicated in schizophrenia) than in the other 4 models studied, in part due to a shared tendency for smaller spines. This observation is consistent with previous studies on Setd1a mutant mice, which showed reduced spine width, decreased mushroomtype spines, and lower spine density in the prefrontal cortex [43,56,57]. In contrast to these findings, several previous studies reported reduced numbers of small spines in the postmortem cortical tissues of schizophrenia patients [22,58]. "

      (11) There is a conceptual problem with the models if being used to differentiate autism risk from Sz risk genes. It is difficult to find good mouse models for Sz, so the choice of 22q11.2del and Setd1a haploinsufficiency is completely reasonable. However, these are both syndromic. 22qdel syndrome involves multiple issues, including hearing loss, delayed development, and learning disabilities, and is associated with autism (20% have autism, as compared to 25% with Sz). Similarly, Setd1a is also strongly associated with autism as well as Sz (and also involves global developmental delay and intellectual disability). While I think this is still the best we can do, and it is reasonable to say that these models show biased risk for these developmental disorders, it definitely can't be used as an explanation for the higher variability seen in the autism risk models.

      We appreciate the reviewer's suggestion for more careful consideration of the interpretation of phenotypes in mouse models, with regard to their relation to clinical phenotypes in human patients. According to the suggestion of the reviewer, we modified the relevant text as follows:

      "The nanoscale features of dendritic spines in ASD-associated mouse models were more variable than those in schizophrenia-associated mouse models. This difference may be related to the broader clinical spectrum of ASD, which ranges from mild impairments in social skills to severe intellectual disability. The four ASD-associated mouse models examined in this study, Nlgn3<sup>R451C/(y or R451C) , Syngap1<sup>+/-</sup>, POGZ<sup>Q1038R/+</sup>, and 15q11-13<sup>dup/+</sup>, may represent subgroups with different levels of hippocampal dysfunction. Among the four ASD-associated mouse models, 15q11-13<sup>dup/+</sup> showed population-level spine properties closer to those of the schizophrenia models. To understand this similarity, further analysis of neural circuit changes in both ASD- and schizophrenia-associated mouse models will be necessary. Analysis of the relationships between rare genetic variants and synapse phenotypes in mouse models may contribute to their eventual categorization. This information should be useful to understand the underlying mechanisms of the broader clinical spectrum of ASD."

      (12) I am not convinced that using dissociated cultures is 'more likely to reflect the direct impact of schizophrenia-related gene mutations on synaptic properties' - first, cultures do have non-neuronal cells, although here glial proliferation was arrested at 2 days, glia will be present with the protocol used (or if not, this needs demonstrating).

      In our culture system, the density of non-neuronal cells is low, and most neurons are not in direct contact with non-neuronal cells. We reported this method in Nat. Neurosci. 1999, where we utilized this culture system to visualize GFP-tagged PSD-95 in neurons using recombinant adenovirus. Because recombinant adenovirus shows higher infection efficiency in glial cells, it was essential for us to establish a culture condition that isolates neurons from glial cells.

      Second, activity levels will affect spine size, and activity patterns are very abnormal in dissociated cultures, so it is very possible that spine changes may not translate into in vivo scenarios. Overall, it is a weakness that the dissociated culture system has been used, which is not to say that it is not useful, and from a technical and practical perspective, there are good justifications.

      We appreciate the reviewer's comment on the advantages and disadvantages of using an in vitro culture system. This comment aligns with the first reviewer's. We modified our text to have a balanced discussion on the role of the in vitro culture system in the study of mental disorder mouse models as follows:

      "Finally, while the spine phenotype identified in the human postmortem brain undoubtedly resulted from complex interactions among genetic background, environmental influences, and regulation by non-neuronal cells, data from pure neuronal cultures are more likely to reflect the direct effects of schizophrenia-related gene mutations on synaptic functions. This property may be advantageous for identifying synaptic molecules that regulate synapse phenotypes in schizophrenia-related mouse models. However, the phenotype observed in the culture system requires confirmation using in vivo experiments of mouse models or human tissue samples. Efficient in vitro screening combined with reliable in vivo evaluation of synapses will facilitate translational research on mental disorders."

      (13) As a minor comment, the spine time-lapse imaging is a strength of the paper. I wonder about the interpretation of Figure 5. For example, the results in Figure 5G and J look as if they may be more that the spines grow to a smaller size and start from a smaller size, rather than necessarily the rate of growth.

      We thank the reviewer for the insightful comment. In the revised manuscript, we analyze the time-lapse data using linear mixed-effects models incorporating nested random effects (spine/dendrite/cell/culture plate). This analysis suggested the difference in the initial size of spines. This point is described in the revised manuscript as follows:

      "Schizophrenia-associated mouse models showed higher similarity in spine morphology, driven by reduced size and growth of nascent spines."

      "We further compared the initial increase in spine volume between genotypes (Figure 5G-I). Linear mixed-effects models incorporating nested random effects revealed significantly smaller initial spine volumes in both 22q11.2<sup>del/+</sup> and Setd1a<sup>+/-</sup> models (genotype effect: p < 0.001 for 22q11.2<sup>del/+</sup> and p < 10<sup>-7</sup> for Setd1a<sup>+/-</sup>). The spines in both mutants also displayed a significant reduction in spine volume increase (p < 0.001). In contrast, newly formed spines in the Nlgn3<sup>R451C/(y or R451C)</sup> neurons were significantly larger than those in wild-type neurons (p < 10<sup>-4</sup>) with preserved time-course of spine growth.”

      We tested whether the initial size difference in spines can be incorporated into the computational simulation. However, due to the large variability in the initial spine size, it was difficult to perform parameter optimization in the model with additional factors. Therefore, we did not further pursue this possibility in this revision. This point is described in the revised text.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The manuscript would be strengthened if the following issues were adequately addressed:

      (1) It would be helpful to know more about the in/ex vivo dendritic spine phenotype of the mouse models of neuropsychiatric disorders, to allow readers to judge whether and how the in vitro spine phenotype in hippocampal neuronal cultures overlaps with/replicates the spine phenotype within the mouse brain.

      We appreciate this comment, but our currently available data is insufficient to specify the difference between in vitro and in vivo spine phenotypes. Our previous study, published in Nature. Comm. (2019), provided data showing that the overall distribution of spine size is similar between in vivo and in vitro conditions in the mouse hippocampus.

      (2) Although the manuscript is largely well written, there are instances of ambiguous language, particularly when describing the spine phenotypes. For example, we are told that "ASD mouse models showed a tendency of decreasing spine subpopulation with small volumes." This description and other examples should be expressed more clearly.

      Following the reviewer's suggestions, we revised the text to improve clarity. We modified the sentence "ASD mouse models showed a tendency of decreasing spine subpopulation with small volumes" to "ASD-related mouse models showed an opposite spine phenotype."To avoid possible confusion for readers, we have revised several sentences in the text to clarify the intended meaning.

      Also, I question whether the word "decoding", meaning to convert (a coded message) into intelligible language, is the most appropriate for the title and abstract.

      The original meaning of the word "decoding" is the conversion of a coded message into an intelligible form; however, in this study, we use the term in a broader sense, referring to the extraction of latent population-level properties of dendritic spines from multidimensional structural parameters. We believe this usage is consistent with its common use in neuroscience and systems biology, where "decoding" often refers to inferring underlying biological states or information from complex datasets.

      (3) The authors should reconsider whether CaMKIIαK42R/K42R mice should be described as a schizophrenia model, when mutations in CAMK2A are known to cause autosomal dominant intellectual developmental disorder-53 (OMIM 617798) and autosomal recessive intellectual developmental disorder-63 (OMIM 618095), and mice carrying the CAMK2A E183V mutation exhibit ASD-related synaptic and behavioral phenotypes (PMID: 28130356).

      We provided a detailed answer to this question in the previous part of the rebuttal.

      (4) The title doesn't adequately summarise the contents of the manuscript. It should mention mice/mouse models and cultured neurons.

      We also responded to this request in the previous part of the rebuttal.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Please provide a supplementary table with all DEGs. Also, DEGs are listed if present in 'more than 2' models - does this mean they had to be in 3 or more? Please clarify.

      According to the reviewer's suggestion, we added data on DEGs shared by >2 mouse models in Supplementary Figure 7. We also added Supplementary Tables 2 and 3 for all DEGs. The phrase "in more than 2 models" means "in 3 or 4 models".

      (2) There are several references to 'schizophrenia mouse models' - it is worth rephrasing this to make clear that these are not mice with schizophrenia.

      We replaced the expression "schizophrenia (or ASD) mouse models" with "schizophrenia (or ASD)-associated mouse models" or similar appropriate wording throughout the manuscript.

      (3) Line 66: 'a recent...' - 2014 is not really recent.

      We removed the word "recent" from the sentence.

      (4) Figure S1: The legend says A-D, but they are not on the figure. Also, make clear whether this data is only WT data - it seems to be from disorder models, with 4 colors for each model - please clarify.

      We changed the sentence from "shown as A to D" to "shown as A to C". The datasets in Supplementary Figure 1 are wild-type only. Each graph uses four colors to represent wildtype data from four imaging datasets obtained from different mouse models. Graphs A to C correspond to spine length, surface area, and volume, respectively.

      (5) Methods, line 680-4: More detail here would be helpful.

      We added more explanation for the generation of subtraction maps.

      (6) Line 193: Make it clear this is hippocampal in the main text.

      We added "cultures of embryonic hippocampi" to the text.

      (7) Figure 5, D-F: Make clear that these are transient spines (as per main text)

      We added "Lifetimes of transient spines" to both the main text and figure legend.

      (8) Figure 6B: More detail is needed; no idea what this is - no axis label. D - also not clear what numbers on the y-axis mean. E - color scale??

      We added details to the figure legend, the axis labels for Figures 6B and 6D, and the color scale for Figure 6E.

      (9) Supplementary Figure 9 - not clear what matrices are actually showing, nor what the scale refers to - is this the number of shared DEGs? If so, please make it clearer.

      The matrices show the shared DEG numbers, as shown in their titles. The scale indicates DEG numbers. We added the explanation of the color code to the figure legend.

      (10) Please make clear in the main text that ecgr4 affected the turnover rate. It would be good to measure other parameters as well.

      We added the phrase "a significant increase in spine turnover rate by Ecrg4 overexpression" to the main text.

      (11) Figure 7: Suggest to label C on images as well, so obvious which is GFP/anti-HA overlay (and respective colors) and which is anti-HA staining.

      We added the labels with respective colors to Figure 7.

      (12) Ecgr4 is a precursor protein that is cleaved to produce several hormone-like peptides. Where is the HA tag - so which cleavage products will it label? Any antibodies that work in immunocytochem?

      HA tag was attached to the C-terminal domain. We predict that anti-HA binds to four cleavage products (the full-length Ecrg4, Augurin, Argilin, and Δ16). Among several commercially available antibodies, only the SIGMA product could detect cells expressing Ecrg4-HA by immunocytochemistry.

      (13) Supplementary Figure 10: Synaptosome would be a good addition.

      We isolated the fraction of synaptosomes using Syn-PER™ Synaptic Protein Extraction Reagent in Supplementary Figure 9A. We added this explanation to the Materials and Methods section.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This study by Roseby and colleagues shows that region-specific mechanosensation - especially anterior-dorsal inputs - controls larval self-righting, and links this to Hox gene function in sensory neurons. The work is important for understanding how body plan cues shape sensorimotor behaviour, and the experimental toolkit will be of use to others. The strength of evidence is compelling with respect to the assays developed and the involvement of the anterior region, the evidence is more limited with respect to the dorso-ventral organization of sensory inputs in that region and the mechanism by which Hox genes contribute to the process. These findings will be of broad interest to researchers studying neural circuits, developmental genetics, and the evolution of behaviour.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Roseby and colleagues report on a body region-specific sensory control of the fly larval righting response, a body contortion performed by fly larvae to correct their posture from an inverted (dorsal side down) position. This is an important topic because of the general need for animals to locomote in the correct orientation and the clever and broadly useful methodologies used in this paper to uncover the sensory triggers for the behavior, including a body region-specific optogenetic approach along different axial positions of the larva, region-specific manipulation of surface contacts with the substrate, and a 'water unlocking' technique to initiate righting behaviors, all strengths of the manuscript. The authors found that multidendritic neurons, particularly the daIV neurons, are necessary for righting behavior. The contribution of daIV neurons had been shown by the authors in a prior paper (Klann et al, 2021), but that study had used constitutive neuronal silencing. Here the authors used acute inactivation to confirm this finding. Additionally, the authors describe an important role for anterior sensory neurons. They move on to test the genetic basis for righting behavior and, consistent with the regional specificity they observe, implicate sensory neuron expression of Hox genes Antennapedia and Abdominal-b in self-righting.

      Strengths:

      Strengths of this paper include the important question addressed and the elegant and innovative combination of methods, which led to clear insights into the sensory biology of self-righting and links between body plan and nervous system function that will be useful for others in the field. The manuscript is very clearly written and couched in interesting biology.

      Limitations:

      There are several important questions for future study that, left unresolved, do not diminish the significance of this manuscript. These include the cellular and developmental basis for Hox gene action, the contributions of dorsal and ventral regions of the animal in righting, and the regional contributions of other sensory cell types in the righting response.

      Comments on revised version.

      The authors have addressed my major concerns.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary

      This work explores the relationship between body structure and behavior by studying self-righting in Drosophila larvae, a conserved behavior that restores proper orientation when turned upside-down. The authors first introduce a novel "water unlocking" approach to induce self-righting behavior in a controlled manner. Then, they develop a method for region-specific inhibition of sensory neurons revealing that anterior, but not posterior, sensory neurons are essential for proper self-righting. Deep-learning-based behavioral analysis shows that anterior inhibition prolongs self-righting by shifting head movement patterns, indicating a behavioral switch rather than a mere delay. Additional genetic and molecular experiments demonstrate that specific Hox genes are necessary in sensory neurons, underscoring how developmental patterning genes shape region-specific sensory mechanisms that enable adaptive motor behaviors.

      Strengths

      The work by Roseby et al. is notable for its elegant experimental design, the development of innovative methods that are likely to benefit the fly behavior community, and the strong experimental support for its conclusions. The manuscript is clearly written, well structured, and presents thoughtfully designed experiments that have been further improved in the revised version. This updated manuscript includes a comprehensive set of behavioral experiments using an additional Gal4 line (ppk-Gal4), which yields confirmatory results and strengthens support for the original hypothesis. It also incorporates quantification of Gal4 line strength, improvements to existing figures, the addition of new figures, and overall refinement of the text.

      Weakness:

      A remaining limitation of this manuscript is the lack of a cellular and mechanistic analysis explaining how Hox genes give rise to the observed behavioral phenotypes. The authors note that this question is being addressed in an ongoing follow-up study, which will expand the project to examine the roles of all Hox genes across the sensory system and to characterize their expression patterns within each of its subcomponents, with the aim of providing mechanistic insight. I look forward to seeing this work in a future manuscript.

      Comments on revised version.

      I have no further recommendations for the authors; most of my comments and questions have been satisfactorily addressed.

    4. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Strengths:

      Strengths of this paper include the important question addressed and the elegant and innovative combination of methods, which led to clear insights into the sensory biology of self-righting, and that will be useful for others in the field. This is a substantial contribution to understanding how animals correct their body position. The manuscript is very clearly written and couched in interesting biology.

      Limitations:

      (1.1) The interpretation of functional experiments is complicated by the proposed excitatory and inhibitory roles of dorsal and ventral sensory neuron activity, respectively. So, while silencing of an excitatory (dorsal) element might slow righting, silencing of inputs that inhibit righting could speed the behavior. Silencing them together, as is done here, could nullify or mask important D-V-specific roles. Selective manipulation of cells along the D-V axis could help address this caveat.

      We highly appreciate the thoughtful comments by Rev1 pointing out the relative simplicity of our current inferences regarding the role of dorsal vs. ventral substrate contact, and agree with the suggestion that cells along the DV axis could have diverse roles in their contribution to self-righting. In this context, we wish to point out two aspects, one theoretical and one practical. Regarding theory, our view is that this may not be a simple case of “excitation vs. inhibition”, but rather one in which the coordinated and dynamic activity of distributed sensory neurons promotes differential action selection in alignment with environmental conditions – a framework that could involve many different behaviours with a still uncertain level of granularity (e.g., is self-righting different if the larva is rotated to 160º instead of exactly 180º?). Regarding the practical aspect, while this area represents a fascinating point for future investigation, it is currently limited by technological development, particularly in the context of this study where a relatively low-cost implementation has been used to probe the AP axis. Investigation of the DV axis would require further technological development, since optogenetic light would need to be precisely delivered from the side rather than from underneath, with a greater degree of resolution compared to the AP axis given the much smaller width of the larva (~120-140µm) relative to its length (~550-600µm). Therefore, whilst we appreciate these comments and suggestion, we believe this line of experiments is ideal for a follow-up investigation, rather than being implemented in the current study.

      (1.2) Prior studies from the authors implicated daIV neurons in the righting response. One of the main advances of the current manuscript is the clever demonstration of region-specific roles of sensory input. However, this is only confirmed with a general md driver, 190(2)80, and not with the subsetspecific Gal4, so it is not clear if daIV sensory neurons are also acting in a regionally-specific manner along the A-P axis.

      To address this interesting and important comment by Rev1 we have carried out a new experiment using an alternative driver to 109(2)80-Gal4 and testing the impact of these manipulations on larval behaviour. The revised version of our MS includes a new figure Supp Fig S3 which shows self-righting times when using the ppk-Gal4 driver with the opto-axial technique. As observed with the 109(2)80-Gal4 driver, self-righting was delayed in anterior but not posterior inhibition conditions, suggesting the daIV neurons act in a region-specific manner to trigger postural control behaviour.

      We have also conducted a head casting analysis in the ppk domain; in another new figure, Supp Fig S7, we also show that head casting behaviour is also increased in the same manner as with the 109(2)80-Gal4 driver.

      These new panels and figures are cited within the sub sections entitled “Optogenetic inhibition of anterior but not posterior multidendritic neurons delays self-righting” and “Inhibition of anterior multidendritic neurons is associated with increased head casting during self-righting”, on pages 25 and 28, respectively. We are grateful to Rev1 for this suggestion, which we consider qualitatively improves our paper.

      (1.3) The manuscript is narrowly focused on sensory neurons that initiate righting, which limits the advance given the known roles for daIV neurons in righting. With the suite of innovative new tools, there is a missed opportunity to gain a more general understanding of how sensory neurons contribute to the righting response, including promoting and inhibiting righting in different regions of the larva, as well as aspects of proprioceptive sensing that could be necessary for righting and account for some of the observed effects of 109(2)80.

      Once again, we appreciate this interesting comment by Rev1. We feel our study provides novelty in understanding how sensory neurons in different body regions contribute to the induction of the behaviour. We developed new technology to show that the activity of anterior sensory neurons is essential for normal righting and inhibiting this activity leads to a switch to a different behavioural regime. We feel this represents a substantial advancement in our understanding of how this behaviour is initiated that has not been previously described. Whilst we also appreciate there is likely to be a substantial role of proprioception in self-righting behaviour, our work here focuses on the external stimuli that elicit self-righting, as a detailed understanding of proprioception would be out of scope and require the development of further techniques to manipulate and measure larval posture. As detailed in the above comment, we feel that the more targeted investigation of daIV neurons can also shed some light on the cell-type specificity and inputs to the self-righting induction process.

      (1.4) Although the authors observe an influence of Hox genes in righting, the possible mechanisms are not pursued, resulting in an unsatisfying conclusion that these genes are somehow involved in a certain region-specific behavior by their region-specific expression. Are the cells properly maintained upon knockdown? Are axon or dendrite morphologies of the cells disrupted upon knockdown?

      We agree with this comment in that further investigating the effects of Hox expression on localised aspects of the sensory system poses an interesting line of investigation. Indeed, we are currently conducting a full scale analysis of Hox gene effects across the sensory field. As things stands, it is not clear how Hox gene expression could affect local sensory processes, a mechanism which could involve morphological changes, changes in neuronal excitability (e.g. due to changes in channel expression), synapse formation and/or efficiency, cell development and identity, and/or combinations of these effects, amongst other possibilities. It is clear that a complete and satisfying investigation of this mechanism for each of the Hox genes would pose a substantial amount of work so, while we acknowledge the merit of Rev1’s comment, we consider that adding a cellular-mechanistic analysis of Hox effects is out of scope for the present study and shall constitute a central matter for a followup study emerging from current projects. We think that our data on Hox expression/function as reported here should serve to open up the analysis of genetic regulation of local sensory function, an area in which we are currently working very actively.

      (1.5) There could be many reasons for delays in righting behavior in the various manipulations, including ineffective sensory 'triggering', incoherent muscle contraction patterns, initiation of inappropriate behaviors that interfere with righting sequencing, and deficits in sensing body position. The authors show that delays in righting upon silencing of 109(2)80 are caused by a switch to head casting behavior. Is this also the case for silencing of daIV neurons, Hox RNAi experiments, and silencing of CO neurons? Does daIII silencing reduce head casting to lead to faster righting responses?

      This is an insightful comment. In the revised version of the manuscript, we do indeed show that anterior inhibition of daIV neurons leads to the same head casting behaviour as with the 109(2)80 domain, which we interpret as an inability of the larvae to sense the underlying substrate (see page 28). We hope the new data addresses this comment, at least to an extent. While we acknowledge it would also be insightful to run this behavioural analysis for other experimental conditions, such as the daIII inhibition and Hox RNAi lines, these experiments pose a specific technical difficulty: the behavioural analysis relies on a deep neural network (DNN) which was trained solely on recordings of the opto-axial technique, meaning it does not translate well to other experimental situations. This problem is further compounded by the use of L1 larvae, which means recording resolution is insufficient to accurately define the body landmarks used in the posture tracking at a smaller scale. Therefore, the recourse for identifying behavioural changes is manual observation, which we feel is too inconsistent to address a quantitative question like this.

      (1.6) 109(2)80 is expressed in a number of central neurons, so at least some of the righting phenotype with this line could be due to silenced neurons in the CNS. This should at least be acknowledged in the manuscript and controlled for, if possible, with other Gal4 lines.

      We thank the reviewer for making this interesting comment. We have added a phrase to the section “Conditional inhibition of multidendritic neurons delays self-righting” (p21) which acknowledges the presence of 109(2)80 expression in the CNS (as reported by Hughes and Thomas). We agree that ideally, a variety of sensory Gal4 lines would be used to check for consistency of the effects. However, it is also important to note that 109(2)80 is one of the only available Gal4 lines with near sole md neuron expression, as other Gal4s also drive expression strongly in external sensory cells for example. Thus, re-running experiments with these other lines – which would involve a substantial investment of time and resources – would not be an ideal strategy. We feel that the new observation of (very) similar axial results using the ppk-Gal4, which does express solely in the daIV neurons, better helps to confirm the specificity of the findings to multidendritic neurons.

      Other points:

      (1.7) Interpretation of roles of Hox gene expression and function in righting response should consider previous data on Hox expression and function in multidendritic neurons reported by Parrish et al. Genes and Development, 2007.

      We thank Rev1 for pointing out this study, which is definitively important to discuss given our results on Hox genes. To address this gap, we have added an additional paragraph in the Discussion (p37) to discuss the documented effects of Hox genes on da neuron dendritic morphology and how our results can be interpreted in light of this.

      (1.8) The daIII silencing phenotype could conceivably be explained if these neurons act as the ventral inhibitors. Do the authors have evidence for or against such roles?

      This is another interesting suggestion. If the daIII neurons were to fulfil this role, then in theory, their inhibition would result in self-righting behaviour under conditions of combined dorsal and ventral substrate contact. This is not an experiment we performed, so we are currently unable to confirm or rule out this possibility. However, we note from casual observation that daIII inhibition does not cause larvae to spontaneously self-right. As mentioned above, our view is not one in which the system has “dorsal/ventral stimulators/inhibitors” for a given behaviour, but that action selection proceeds according to a coordination of many (dynamic) contextual clues. Given the new results with the axial inhibition of daIV neurons (see above) it might be more parsimonious to suggest that these “tiling” neurons are primarily responsible for detecting substrate contact around the full circumference of the animal, rather than this involving different cell types according to the different sides of the body.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Strengths:

      The work of Roseby et al. does what it says on the tin. The experimental design is elegant, introducing innovative methods that will likely benefit the fly behavior community, and the results are robustly supported, without overstatement.

      Weaknesses:

      The manuscript is clearly written, flows smoothly, and features well-designed experiments. Nevertheless, there are areas that could be improved. Below is a list of suggestions and questions that, if addressed, would strengthen this work:

      (2.1) Figure 1A illustrates the sequence of self-righting behavior in a first instar larva, while the experiments in the same figure are performed on third instar larvae. It would be helpful to clarify whether the sequence of self-righting movements differs between larval stages. Later on in the manuscript, experiments are conducted on first instar larvae without explanation for the choice of stage. Providing the rationale for using different larval stages would improve clarity.

      This is a very interesting point raised by Rev2. Most of our previous work on self-righting (e.g. PicaoOsorio et al. 2015 Science; Picao-Osorio, Baldaia et al. 2017 Genetics; Klann et al. 2021 Journal of Neuroscience) was focused on the first instar larva (L1) because this early stage: (i) represents the simplest form of all larval stages, (ii) allows meaningful comparisons with late embryonic processes guiding the development and physiology of the nervous system, (iii) captures the system in a relatively naïve state, that had limited if any exposure to external stimuli. Although these attributes remain valid for the investigation of the sensory stimuli that trigger self-righting, the implementation of the necessary regional physical measurements and manipulations used in this study (surface contact, opto-axial technique, deep neural network analysis) would be impossible to implement in the early forms of the larva simply due to its reduced size. Due to this, we employed L3s, which due to their larger dimensions enabled the development and use of the sophisticated regional stimulation techniques reported here. Yet, as Rev2 rightly points out, we return to the late embryo and early L1 at the point of conducting gene expression analyses as these are optimised for those early stages. The selection of larval stage according to experiment relies on the fact that all forms of the larva display self-righting (Issa, Picao-Osorio, et al. 2019 Current Biology), that SR does not differ according to larval stage and that the characterisation of the structure of the nervous system across larval stages has shown a large level of similarity and consistent topographically arranged connectivity between identified neurons (Gerhard et al. 2017 eLife).

      (2.2) What was the genotype of the larvae used for the initial behavioral characterization (Figure 1)? It is assumed they were wild type or w1118, but this should be stated explicitly. This also raises the question of whether different wild-type strains exhibit this behavior consistently or if there is variability among them. Has this been tested?

      Thank you to the reviewer for pointing this out. The genotype for Figure 1 was w<sup>1118</sup>; this has now been added to the figure legend and the results section – thank you to Rev2 for pointing this out. Although in this study we did not explicitly compare self-righting (SR) performance in wild type/control genotypes (as we are internally consistent in using w<sup>1118</sup>) based on previous data collected in our lab we know that self-righting times are similar and very consistent amongst inbred control lines such as w<sup>1118</sup>, yw, and Oregon Red. Furthermore, we can also add that when comparing SR times between these inbred populations with a highly polymorphic outbred Drosophila population (Martins et al. 2013 PLoS Pathogens) we observed that their SR time (i.e. 6.14s ± 1.06) was not significantly different from the inbred lines (p<0.05, U test) (Picao-Osorio, J. 2014 Doctoral Thesis, Chapter 4, p112).

      (2.3) Could the observed slight leftward bias in movement angles of the tail (Figure 1I and S1) be related to the experimental setup, for example, the way water is added during the unlocking procedure? It would be helpful to include some speculation on whether the authors believe this preference to be endogenous or potentially a technical artifact.

      This is an interesting comment, and we recognise that lateral manipulation biases in self-righting could indeed reflect experimental limitations or biological tendencies. At this point we cannot interpret these results as formal evidence of chirality, given that they may reflect subtle aspects of the micromanipulation of specimens. We are currently developing a motorised platform to conduct self-righting tests, which when fully developed, should help addressing the chirality question.

      (2.4) The genotype of the larvae used for Figure 2 experiments is missing.

      Thank you for pointing this out. These were again w<sup>1118</sup> larvae; this detail has now been added to the figure legend and the main text.

      (2.5) The experiment shown in Figure 2E-G reports the proportion of larvae exhibiting self-righting behavior. Is the self-righting speed comparable to that measured using the setup in Figure 1?

      Thank you for pointing this out. We have now added average self-righting times to the figure legends of figures 1 and 2. The self-righting times across for the dorsal + ventral contact conditions was notably longer than dorsal-only cases, which were also slightly longer than the “standard” case. This is perhaps to be expected, as the larvae are encountering unusual and ambiguous situations. We suggest the extra time could reflect an additional decision-making step or action flip-flopping process, or simply physical constraints on the movement (for example, not being able to use some parts of the body).

      (2.6) Line 496 states: "However, the effect size was smaller than that for the entire multidendritic population, suggesting neurons other than the daIVs are important for self-righting". Although I agree that this is the more parsimonious hypothesis, an alternative interpretation of the observed phenomenon could be that the effect is not due to the involvement of other neuronal populations, but rather to stronger Gal4 expression in daIVs with the general driver compared to the specific one. Have the authors (or someone else) measured or compared the relative strengths of these two drivers?

      We agree with this suggestion and to address this concern, we have added as part of our new figure Supp. Fig. S3, a dedicated panel S3C showing fluorescence measurements from ddaC using the 109(2)80-Gal4 and ppk-Gal4 lines. We found no difference in tdTomato fluorescence intensity, suggesting equal expression strength across the two Gal4 drivers. Our new results for axial daIV inhibition are also consistent with this effect size difference, further suggesting that inhibition of all md neurons poses stronger challenges for self-righting compared to the daIV neurons alone.

      (2.7) Is there a way to quantify or semi-quantify the expression of the Hox genes shown in Figure 6A? Also, was this experiment performed more than once (are there any technical replicates?), or was the amount of RNA material insufficient to allow replication?

      Unfortunately, we only had limited amounts of mRNA extracted from FACS-sorted 109(2)80>GFP cells to feed our reverse transcriptase reactions and used much of these samples for the experiment reported. After Rev2 suggestion we went back to our freezers, recovered traces of the samples used in the original experiment, and attempted a new amplification; despite this effort, this new experiment was unsuccessful. We feel that the main point deduced from the original experiment is valid in that we obtained amplicons of the expected size for all the Hox transcripts analysed and that for those cases in which we observed biological effects – i.e. Antp and Abd-B – we corroborated protein expression in the 109(2)80 domain using immunohistochemistry. We are currently expanding this project examining the roles of all Hox genes across the entire sensory system and shall report the expression patterns of all Hox genes in each of the subcomponents of the sensory system the future.

      (2.8) Since RNAi constructs can sometimes produce off-target effects, it is generally advisable to use more than one RNAi line per gene, targeting different regions. Given that Hox genes have been extensively studied, the RNAis used in Figure 6B are likely already characterized. If this were the case, it would strengthen the data to mention it explicitly and provide references documenting the specificity and knockdown efficiency of the Hox gene RNAis employed. For example, does Antp RNAi expression in the 109(2)80 domain decrease Antp protein levels in multidendritic anterior neurons in immunofluorescence assays?

      We used the TRiP RNAi lines, specifically the Valium10 selection available from the Bloomington Stock Centre. Unfortunately, there is not much information on how specific the Hox RNAi lines areor whether their might have off-target effects.

      (2.9) In addition to increasing self-righting time, does Antp downregulation also affect head casting behavior or head movement speed? A more detailed behavioral characterization of this genetic manipulation could help clarify how closely it relates to the behavioral phenotypes described in the previous experiments.

      This would be interesting line of investigation. As described in a previous comment, this is currently unfeasible for us given some important differences between experiments including larval stage and recording conditions. We have added some speculative comments to the manuscript describing the larval behaviour under Hox RNAi.

      (2.10) Does down-regulation of Antp in the daIV domain also increase self-righting time?

      Given the new results with axial effects of daIV neurons, we also sought to address this point with a new series of experiments expressing Hox RNAi constructs in the ppk-Gal4 domain. The new data is shown in a new figure (Figure S8) displaying self-righting times for ppk-Gal4-Hox-RNAi. Interestingly, we found no effect of any RNAi expression on self-righting times, suggesting that md types other than daIVs are under Hox regulation that is important for self-righting.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewing Editor Comments:

      The reviewers were enthusiastic about the value and quality of this study by Roseby and colleagues. There were two main issues that emerged from the reviews that we're highlighting for the authors to address, should they choose to:

      (1) A little more cell-type resolution of the anterior region

      The anterior region includes a lot of sensory neurons that may be contributing to the effect. Some sensory neurons (e.g., daIV) have been implicated in righting - are these the ones carrying the anterior signal? Are dorsal sensory neurons promoting righting and ventral ones stalling it?

      We are not suggesting a complete sensory-neuron mapping in the anterior region. Instead, we propose the authors conduct a focused check: repeat the axial inhibition with a daIV-specific driver (same photomask assay) to show the A-P effect within the implicated class, and, if possible, replicate one key result with an alternative broad md driver to address Gal4 strength/off-target expression.

      As mentioned above (see Rev1 comment) we have indeed carried out a new experiment using an alternative driver to 109(2)80-Gal4 and testing the impact of these manipulations on larval behaviour. The revised version of our MS includes a new figure Supp Fig S3 which shows self-righting times when using the ppk-Gal4 driver with the opto-axial technique. As with the 109(2)80-Gal4 driver, self-righting was delayed in anterior but not posterior inhibition conditions, suggesting the daIV neurons specifically act in a region-specific manner to trigger postural control behaviour.

      Furthermore, in another new figure, Supp Fig S7, we show that head casting behaviour is also increased in the same manner as with the 109(2)80-Gal4 driver. These new panels and figures are cited within the sub-sections entitled “Optogenetic inhibition of anterior but not posterior multidendritic neurons delays self-righting” and “Inhibition of anterior multidendritic neurons is associated with increased head casting during self-righting”, on pages 25 and 28, respectively. We are grateful to R1 for this suggestion, which we consider qualitatively improves the quality of our paper.

      (2) The Hox section to strengthen this section, we recommend:

      (a) Confirm specificity/efficacy of knockdown (e.g., Antp protein reduction in targeted md neurons and a second RNAi line if available).

      This is a reasonable comment. For our experiments, we selected a UAS-Antp<sup>RNAi</sup> line (Bloomington #27675) given that this construct has been: (i) utilised in several previous studies as the main and single line to interfere with Anpt expression (e.g. Baek et al. 2013 Development; Paul et al. 2021 Nature Comms) and (ii) shown to display a consistent reduction in Antp protein levels of approximately 50% (see Poliacikova et al. 2024 Science Adv.). Furthermore, previous work comparing #27675 with other UAS-Antp<sup>RNAi</sup> lines has demonstrated that all available lines lead to a similar level of reduction in protein expression, although the #27675 line exhibits the most consistent effects (lower variability) (Poliacikova et al. 2024 Science Adv.). Unfortunately, at this point in time, we do not have the capacity to conduct new experiments with other RNAi lines, but consider that the information and arguments mentioned above should be reassuring about our choice of a reasonable and previously validated method to interfere with Antp expression.

      (b) Perform one temporal control (GAL80^ts) or a simple rescue, to separate developmental vs acute roles.

      This is a good and interesting suggestion, but we consider that the discrimination between developmental and physiological effects falls outside the scope of this study. Indeed, experiments of this kind are currently being conducted in our lab as part of a wider examination of Hox gene roles in the sensory system.

      (c) Place the results clearly in the context of prior work (e.g., Parrish 2007), so the mechanism isn't left hanging.

      This is an important point, and we have now done this. Many thanks for pointing this out.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1.1) A Gal4 line for the pannier dorsal specification gene shows expression in dorsal sensory neurons, as described in Galindo et al., Development, 2023, and could help tease apart dorsal v. ventral contributions.

      This is an interesting suggestion. However, we understand that the pannier (pnr) Gal4 line mentioned in Galindo et al. 2023 is an enhancer trap inserted in the pnr locus which drives expression in neural as well as non-neural tissues such as the embryonic dorsal ectoderm (see: Calleja et al. 1996 Development; Stronach et al. 2014 Genetics). Although, as Rev1 rightly indicates, this line also labels dorsal cluster sensory neurons, including ddaC (cIV) and ddaF (cIII) neurons the fact that the line displays expression in non-neural tissues makes its use in behavioural experiments difficult as non-neural effects might affect the behavioural patterns studied. A possible way to instrument the pnrGal4 tool into behavioural analyses might involve the creation of the necessary variants to implement a split-Gal4 approach, but this, we believe, unfortunately falls out of the scope of this study.

      (1.2) Potential roles for daII neurons and daI neurons are not examined. Drivers have been described for daII neurons, and there are drivers that will target a majority of proprioceptive md neurons, so these could be examined to complete the analysis started here.

      This is another interesting suggestion by Rev1, but we consider that the fine-grain mapping of effects mediated by sensory neuron sub-clases falls outside the scope of this study aimed at mapping sensory regional effects on self-righting. This does not take the merit of the suggestion away, and indeed, experiments of this kind are currently being conducted in our lab as part of a comprehensive examination of Hox gene roles in the sensory system.

      (1.3) To account for 109(2)80 off targets, the authors could consider other lines that silence most or all md neurons (clh201-Gal4; 5-40-Gal4; 21-7-Gal4) that could at least have different central offtargets. Some other lines are broad somatosensory system drivers but sensory-specific (pebbledGal4).

      This is an interesting comment, and so are the suggestions made. Although to include this kind of verification would be interesting, when carrying out our experiments, we did not observe any central expression at all. Also, to repeat all our experiments in which we use the established and validated 109(2) 80 line using instead these four Gal4 lines, is unfortunately out of scope for us at this point in time. We will nonetheless consider these comments by Rev1 in future extensions of our work.

      (1.4) There is a typo on line 481; it should be "other".

      We are grateful to R1 for pointing this out. This has now been amended

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (2.1) Lines 91-92 cite references describing self-righting behavior across different animal groups, which is illustrated in Figure 1B. It would be helpful to indicate these references directly in the figure. For example, instead of using dots to denote their presence (which are, in a way, redundant since the behavior is reported in all groups), numbers or letters could be used to refer to the specific papers describing them.

      Thank you for this suggestion. We have now replaced the original dots by an abridged citation of a key paper providing evidence in that specific animal group, e.g. Smith, et al. 1997; Rogers et al. 2015

      (2.2) In Figure 1A, the diagrams illustrate the two large dorsal tracheae, which nicely indicate the larva's orientation. However, since they are drawn in a very light gray, they can be difficult to distinguish without zooming in. It might improve clarity if the tracheae were made slightly more prominent.

      Thank you for this suggestion. We have now implemented this change.

      (2.3) In Figure 1E, the dotted line and green bar mark the segment of the recording corresponding to self-righting, which is then quantified in Figure 1G. Was the same procedure applied when analyzing tail speed, or was it limited to head speed? Figure 1F does not show a dotted line or green bar, which is confusing; it would be helpful to clarify the reason for this discrepancy. Also, in Figure 1G, there is an inset showing photos of the movement sequence with the green bar and the caption 'Trimmed to SR sequence,' which implies to me that for tail speed, the 0.75-1 segment of the recording was also used for quantification. I suggest adding the dotted line and green bar to Figure 1F and removing this inset from Figure 1G, as it appears quite small and disrupts the layout of the figure. If it is retained, the figure legend should explicitly refer to the inset.

      Thank you for pointing this out. We have amended these figures as suggested.

      (2.4) In Figures 1 and 2, the box plots include the individual data points, whereas Figures 3 and S2 do not. For data transparency, it would be important to show the individual measurements here as well. I strongly recommend adding them to the figure, or alternatively providing a clear rationale in the text for not doing so.

      Thank you for mentioning this. The reason data points are not shown in Fig 3 or S2 is because the variance extends the scale and compresses the box making it illegible. To make this clear we now explain this in the figure legends.

      (2.5) In Figures 4 and 5, the distribution of self-righting times from the optogenetic inhibition experiments is shown using bar graphs rather than box plots, as in the previous figures. This choice obscures the data distribution, since all bars reach down to zero. Replacing the bar graphs in Figures 4 and 5 with box plots would more clearly convey the experimental results.

      We thak Rev2 for this comment, which gives us an opportunity to clarify the matter. Distributions of SR times are drawn with bars because we compare means +/- variance in the analysis, and not medians +/- IQR as is done in the other experiments. The choice of visualisation reflects the analysis, which is what is recommended by statisticians. Plus, we also show the individual observations, meaning the distribution can be observed. We hope that it is now clear that we are not obscuring any distributions.

      (2.6) Figure 6 would benefit from some reorganization. Panel A is very small and dense with information, making it difficult to interpret without significant zooming. In particular, the FACS graph is nearly impossible to read, as the axes remain unclear even when enlarged. It might be best to either remove this graph and replace it with a cartoon version of FACS-sorted populations, and reorganize the figure to ensure legibility. Additionally, the current layout progresses from the bottom up, which takes time to follow. Comprehension could be improved if the sequence began with the larva dissection placed in the top left area of the figure, where readers typically look first (I appreciate that this is mentioned in the figure legend; however, a different layout might present the information more effectively).

      We appreciate the constructive spirit of this comment and have indeed considered Rev2 suggestions including drafting new layouts of this figure. After all this experimentation, we remain of the view that the original presentation is probably the best trade-off between size and clarity, offering more space for the appreciation of confocal imaging and its interpretation.

      Minor corrections:

      (1) Throughout the text, the word Drosophila appears sometimes in italics and sometimes in regular font; please standardize its formatting for consistency.

      Amended

      (2) Line 179: the use of three hyphens in the sentence "minimum --- in all cases < 30 s --- to avoid larval desiccation" is unusual; exchanging them for commas or brackets is advised.

      Amended

      (3) Line 183: in w1118, the numbers are usually in superscript (not subscript), and the w should be italicized.

      Amended

      (4) In line 783, there is an incorrect space between "is" and the comma in "...repertoire, which is , in...".

      Amended

      (5) In Figure 2G, the left panel appears partially cut off, which makes the text at the edges difficult to read. It might help to adjust the panel so that all labels are fully visible.

      Done

      (6) In the current version of the manuscript, Figure 5 is presented before Figure 4, which is confusing.

      This has been amended.

      (7) Two videos are included in the supplementary material, but I could not find any reference to them in the main text of the manuscript.

      This has been amended.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This study presents a valuable finding on the mutational and expression profile of ZNF217, ZNF750, ZNF703 Zinc finger genes in Kenya women with BCs. The evidence supporting the claims of the authors is solid. The work will be of interest to scientists or clinicians working in the field of diagnosis and detection for breast cancer.

    2. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors sought to characterize the somatic mutation landscape and gene expression profiles of Kenyan breast cancer patients. By comparing Whole Exome Sequencing (WES) and RNA-seq data from 23 paired tumor-normal samples against The Cancer Genome Atlas (TCGA) cohorts, the study specifically aimed to highlight the role of the ZNF gene family.

      Strengths:

      The study addresses a critical gap in genomic research by focusing on an underrepresented African population, which is essential for achieving global health equity in oncology.

      Weaknesses:

      The cohort is relatively small for definitive landscape characterization. The study fails to explore the mechanistic link between identified somatic mutations and observed aberrant gene expression.

      Impact and Utility:

      The impact of this work is currently limited. While the data adds to the growing repository of African genomic samples, the lack of novelty and mechanistic insight reduces its utility for the broader scientific community. To be clinically valuable, the study would need to offer more robust, unbiased profiling that could eventually inform population-specific diagnostics or therapies.

      Additional Context:

      Breast cancer in African populations often presents with different clinical trajectories compared to Western cohorts. While any data from these regions is vital, "landscape" studies require high statistical power and unbiased analysis to differentiate true population-specific drivers from noise or small-sample variance. Without a clear regulatory mechanism linking mutations to phenotypes, the findings remain preliminary observations.

    3. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This revised study analyzes the somatic mutational profiles and transcriptomic expression of three zinc-finger genes (ZNF217, ZNF703, ZNF750) in 23 Kenyan women with breast cancer, using whole-exome sequencing and RNA-sequencing of paired tumor-normal tissues. A total of 358 somatic mutations were detected, and all three genes were significantly upregulated in tumors compared to normal tissues (ZNF217 showing the most prominent difference). The findings provide preliminary evidence for the idenfication of diagnostic/prognostic biomarkers or therapeutic targets in sub-Saharan African populations.

      Strengths:

      The study's key strengths lie in its focus on an underrepresented Kenyan cohort, addressing a critical gap in sub-Saharan African breast cancer genomic research. It integrates DNA-level mutation analysis with RNA-level expression data, leveraging standardized bioinformatics pipelines and rigorous quality control to deliver detailed insights into mutation types, functional impacts, and amino acid changes.

      Comments on revised version:

      After careful revision by the authors, the manuscript has become more rigorous. The limitations including small sample size and lack of functional validation are properly acknowledged, and conclusions are prudently presented as hypothesis‑generating rather than causal claims. Meanwhile, strengthened multi‑omics analyses, TCGA validation, logical reorganization of results and improved figure presentation further enhance the reliability of this work.

    4. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Research scope

      The results primarily focus on mutations in ZNF217, ZNF703, and ZNF750, with limited correlation analyses between mutations and gene expression. The rationale for focusing only on these genes is unclear. Given the availability of large breast cancer cohorts such as TCGA and METABRIC, the authors should compare their mutation profiles with these datasets. Beyond European and U.S. cohorts, sequencing data from multiple countries, including a recent Nigerian breast cancer study (doi: 10.1038/s41467-021-27079-w), should also be considered. Since whole-exome sequencing was performed, it is unclear why only four genes were highlighted, and why comparisons to previous literature were not included.

      We have significantly strengthened the biological and clinical rationale for focusing on these three genes in the Introduction. Specifically, we now clearly justify their selection based on distinct functional roles: ZNF217 (oncogene, 20q13 amplification); ZNF703 (luminal subtype oncogenic driver); ZNF750 (tumor suppressor involved in differentiation). We have also explicitly define the knowledge gap: lack of mutation and expression data for these genes in African populations, particularly Kenyan cohorts.

      Importantly, we have now incorporated comparative analysis with TCGA data in the Results. This include; A new section on “Recurrent mutations and comparison with TCGA”; a new table, “Table 6” and a curated dataset, “Supplementary Table S4”

      (2) Language and Style Issues

      There are many typos and clear errors in the main text (e.g. (ref)).

      Additionally, several statements read unnaturally. For example:

      "Investigators uncovered 170 mutations ..." should instead be phrased as "We identified 170 mutations ...."

      "The research team ..." should be rephrased as "Our team ...."

      The manuscript has undergone comprehensive language editing throughout the revised draft.

      (3) Methods and Data Analysis Details

      The methods section is vague, with general descriptions rather than specific details of data processing and analysis. The authors should provide:

      (a) Parameters used for trimming, mapping, and variant calling (rather than referencing another paper such as Tang et al. 2023).

      (b) Statistical methods for somatic mutation/SNP detection.

      (c) Details of RNA purification and RNA-seq library preparation.

      Without these details, the reproducibility of the study is limited.

      We have fully revised and substantially expanded the Methods section to improve clarity, transparency, and reproducibility. In the revised manuscript, we now provide explicit details of all key analytical steps. These include quality control procedures using FastQC and MultiQC, as well as read trimming parameters implemented in Trimmomatic (leading and trailing quality <3, sliding window 4:15, and minimum read length of 36 bp). We also clearly describe alignment of reads to the hg38 reference genome using BWA-MEM, followed by somatic variant calling using MuTect2 in paired tumor–normal mode with incorporation of a Panel of Normals (PON). Variant filtering criteria are now explicitly stated, including minimum read depth (≥10), base quality (≥20), and variant allele fraction (≥0.05), and functional annotation was performed using VEP (v108).

      In addition, we have included details on variant validation through visualization in the Integrative Genomics Viewer (IGV), as well as RNA-seq processing steps using STAR for alignment, featureCounts for quantification, and DESeq2 for normalization and differential expression analysis. Statistical analyses are now clearly described, including the use of paired tests and Benjamini–Hochberg correction for multiple testing. Collectively, these additions directly address the reviewer’s concerns by ensuring that all analytical procedures are transparently reported and fully reproducible.

      (4) Data Reporting

      This study has the potential to provide a valuable resource for the field. However, data-sharing plans are unclear. The authors should:

      (a) Deposit sequencing data in a public repository.

      (b) Provide supplementary tables listing all detected mutations and all differentially expressed genes (DEGs).

      (c) Clarify whether raw or adjusted p-values were used for DEG analysis.

      (d) Perform DEG analyses stratified by breast cancer subtypes, since differential expression was observed by HER2 status, and some zinc finger proteins are known to be enriched in luminal subtypes.

      We have improved data transparency and reporting in the revised manuscript. All sequencing data are now publicly available, with whole-exome sequencing (WES) data deposited in the Sequence Read Archive (SRA; PRJNA913947) and RNA-seq data available in the Gene Expression Omnibus (GEO; GSE225846). In addition, we have provided comprehensive Supplementary Materials to support reproducibility and facilitate further analysis, including detailed mutation summaries (Table S1), mutation positions (Table S2), amino acid changes (Table S3), the curated TCGA comparison dataset (Table S4), protein domain annotations (Table S5), and the combined gene expression and clinical dataset (Table S6).

      We have also clarified key aspects of the statistical analysis, including the use of Benjamini–Hochberg adjusted p-values and the thresholds applied for significance. Furthermore, in response to reviewer comments regarding subtype-specific analyses, we have explicitly addressed in the Discussion why subtype-stratified differential expression analysis was not performed, noting that the limited sample size would reduce statistical power and increase the risk of overinterpretation. Together, these revisions enhance the transparency, accessibility, and interpretability of the study.

      (5) Mutation Analysis

      Visualizations of mutation distribution across protein domains would greatly strengthen interpretation. Comparing mutation distribution and frequency with published datasets would also contextualize the findings.

      We have substantially enhanced the mutation analysis by incorporating several new figures and complementary analyses that provide deeper biological interpretation. Specifically, we added Figure 1 to summarize mutation burden, coding consequences, and prevalence; Figure 2 to illustrate the nucleotide substitution spectrum; Figure 3 to map mutations across protein domains; Figure 4 to assess functional enrichment and mutation composition; and Figure 5 to highlight recurrent mutations.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Weaknesses:

      The current cohort size is relatively small to reach significant findings, and targeted exploration on ZNF family without emphasizing the reason or clinical significance hinders the overall significance of the entire work.

      We acknowledge the limitation posed by the relatively small cohort size and have addressed this concern in several ways in the revised manuscript. First, we have explicitly stated this limitation in the Discussion section. We have also reframed the study as a pilot and population-specific exploratory analysis to better reflect its scope. To strengthen the overall significance, we integrated both mutation and gene expression data, incorporated comparisons with TCGA datasets, and emphasized the importance of African-specific genomic insights. Importantly, we highlight that this study provides novel data from an underrepresented population, which represents a key contribution to the field.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Weaknesses:

      The author has enhanced the descriptive depth of the study by adding details on mutations, expression subgroup analyses, and functional annotations but has not addressed the core weaknesses of small cohort size and lack of functional validation. While the revised version is more comprehensive in cataloging molecular alterations, it remains confined to descriptive analysis, with no substantial improvement in the reliability or generalizability of its conclusions.

      We have addressed this concern by clearly acknowledging the key limitations of the study, including the absence of functional validation, the relatively small sample size, and the limited generalizability of the findings. In response, we have refined our interpretation to avoid causal claims and instead present the results as hypothesis-generating. We have also expanded the Discussion to include future research directions, recommending functional validation studies, multi-omics approaches, and validation in larger, more diverse cohorts.

      In addition, we have strengthened the robustness of the study by incorporating comparisons with TCGA data, providing more detailed mutation classification, and integrating genomic and transcriptomic analyses. Beyond addressing reviewer comments, we have further improved the manuscript by reorganizing the Results section to follow a clear and logical flow—from mutation burden and spectrum to protein-level distribution, functional enrichment, recurrent mutations, and TCGA comparison. We have also improved figure quality and labeling to meet journal standards, added clear and consistent figure captions, and ensured alignment between the text, figures, and tables throughout the manuscript.

      We sincerely thank the reviewers for their valuable feedback, which has significantly improved the quality and rigor of this work.

    1. eLife Assessment

      In this important theoretical contribution, the authors study the evolution of large microbial populations competing for resources in the challenging and relevant regime of overlapping ecological and evolutionary timescales. The modeling approach is overall convincing, anlthough its presentation would benefit from clarifications, e.g. on assumptions and approximations. The results will be of broad interest to researchers in evolutionary biology, ecology and microbiology.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This important study performs a theoretical analysis of the evolutionary dynamics of strains under a classical resource competition model to understand how clonal interference and diversification of resource preferences interact to structure microbial population genetic structure. They find that in large asexual populations evolving in relevant parameter regimes, where evolutionary and ecological time scales overlap, populations are characterized by a small number of ecotypes, which are groups of strains that share a given resource preference, whose dynamics in the long run are dominated by priority effects.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript constitutes a novel and sound contribution to theory in ecology and evolution, under relevant parameter regimes which have been previously overlooked due to the complexities they bring, i.e. when the weak mutation regime breaks down. Here, the authors make a considerable step forward by taking advantage of analytical advances in the population genetics theory of clonal interference in recent years (travel fitness wave moving at a constant average speed v), which they apply to resource competition models typically studied in ecology.

      The main insights in the derivations shown in the supplementary text are clearly summarized in Figure 2 of the main manuscript, where the different phases of the somewhat counterintuitive dynamics of the strategic mutations in the model are quantified.

      Weaknesses:

      Despite its many merits, I believe the manuscript can profit from a few clarifications as I point out below:

      (1) I think the authors should make explicit in the abstract of the paper that they study a stair to heaven fitness landscape and that the rate of beneficial mutations does not slow down.

      (2) Evolution is elegantly incorporated in the resource consumption model by assuming two classes of mutations: strategic mutations and constitutively beneficial mutations. I believe that the biological meaning of these different types should be better explained. Specifically, on pages 3 and 4, the authors state that strategy mutations "alter resource uptake strategy and potentially its overall magnitude as well", whereas the other type is "only tangentially related to resource consumption (e.g. eliminating a pathway that is not necessary in the current environment)." I find this a bit strange since this is a model of resource competition, and I would assume that the latter type of mutations would be neutral. Maybe I am not reading this well, and the meaning of the mutations, as well as their assumed rates, could be clarified with some examples as the authors state that these mutations are routinely observed in microbial evolution experiments.

      (3) The authors discuss the theoretical results obtained in the light of the famous Lenski experiment, where ecotype formation is observed in some populations. However, in the mentioned example, cross-feeding was the mechanism involved. Since in their model, unlike in other models, cross-feeding is not considered, I found this example to be misplaced. In addition, in the Lenski experiment, a single (and essential) resource is present in the environment, so the assumptions of the model do not appear to apply. On the other hand, in Herron and Doebeli's experiments, two resources (substitutable) were present, so a comparison with their experimental results would be more appropriate.

      (4) The paper should also discuss deleterious mutations, which I did not see mentioned anywhere.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In "Ecological diversification in rapidly evolving populations", the authors use a consumer-resource model with competition for 2 different resources to study diversification for cases in which ecology and evolution are separated (weak-mutation limit) and when they overlap. They find the potential for the timing of a mutation (and not just its associated fitness) to confer an advantage against fitter strains (which they call "priority effect"), and the aggregation of dominant trait values that lead to the definition of "ecotypes" that discretize and structure the community.

      Strengths:

      The authors introduce detailed analytical calculations in the limit of overlapping ecology and evolution, which is a case that typically eludes analysis. The work also pays particular attention to the timing of "invasion" by a mutation, whereas most approaches focus on the long-term outcome of evolution (e.g. fixation of a trait value).

      Weaknesses:

      The model makes important assumptions that limit its generality considerably. In particular, the two "evolving traits" defined in the model are very specific and by no means the simplest possible resource competition evolutionary model that the authors claim it to be. The manuscript is not clear enough to be reproducible, and the authors do not discuss in sufficient depth the huge amount of work that is presented in the manuscript. The bibliography omits important work focused on diversification emerging from eco-evolutionary interactions similar to the ones studied in the manuscript.

    4. Author response:

      We thank the Editor and the Reviewers for their detailed and constructive feedback. We look forward to submitting a revised version of the manuscript that addresses their comments and suggestions, with a special focus on clarifying the assumptions and implications of our analysis. In particular, we will aim to demonstrate that (i) many of our qualitative findings -- and even some quantitative results -- extend beyond the simplest two-resource case considered in the main text, and (ii) that they can also be generalized to account for simple forms of cross-feeding. We hope that these changes will help to illustrate the broader applicability of our underlying mathematical framework.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This valuable study demonstrates that the inner membrane protease YME1 contributes to the formation of mitochondrial-derived compartments in yeast through the modulation of both the lipid transporter UPS2 and the MICOS complex. The evidence supporting this model is solid, although this manuscript could be improved by providing additional evidence supporting the independent roles for UPS2 and MICOS regulation in this process. This work will be of interest to cell biologists, biochemists, and geneticists interested in understanding the molecular basis of mitochondrial regulation and function.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, Balasubramaniam and colleagues continue this group's efforts to understand mitochondrial-derived compartments (MDCs) that bud off from yeast mitochondria in response to metabolic stress. In a previous genetic screen, they identified Ups lipid transfer proteins and the AAA-protease Yme1 as components that modulate MDC formation. In this study, the authors link these observations by showing that Yme1 modulates levels of Ups1, Ups2, as well as MICOS complex members in the mitochondrial proteome. Using genetic approaches, they then show that Yme1's role on MDCs is dependent on its catalytic activity (via an inactive mutant) and that YME1 shows genetic interactions with UPS1/2 and MIC10/MIC60. The overall model is that Yme1 activity responds to metabolic cues and acts via proteolysis of these two distinct mitochondrial machineries to regulate MDC biogenesis.

      Strengths:

      The strengths of the study are its integration of mitochondrial proteomics with strong genetic approaches, as well as synergy with the authors' previous studies on the role of lipids in MD genesis. The work is overall well carried-out and experiments are thoughtfully discussed.

      Weaknesses:

      The major weaknesses are a lack of mechanistic resolution surrounding the model, e.g., proposed or tested mechanisms by which Yme1 activity is regulated by metabolic cues, or how Ups1/2 activity and the MICOS contribute to MDC generation. The authors acknowledge these as open questions, but addressing them would still enhance the significance of the study.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      In this manuscript, the authors report a novel regulation of the outer mitochondrial membrane remodeling domains called mitochondria-derived compartments, MDCs. The team has previously established the main principles behind this recently identified quality control pathway, but the mechanisms that control MDCs formation remain incompletely understood. Using the baker's yeast model, the authors identify the conserved mitochondrial protease Yme1 as a crucial factor that regulates MDC formation. Mechanistically, Yme1's proteolytic function controls the levels of Ups1 and Ups2 lipid transfer proteins and the components of the membrane organizing complex called MICOS, thus providing a plausible model as to how Yme1-dependent proteolysis permits MDC formation through the removal of lipid and MICOS-dependent constraints. Finally, the authors show that this Yme1-mediated activity is also defined by metabolic conditions. In principle, this study is interesting and novel, and holds potential to provide new insights into the regulation of the MDC pathway that emerged as a new fundamental mitochondrial quality control mechanism. However, the following points should be carefully addressed.

      Major points:

      (1) Yme1 has been previously shown to regulate mitochondria-specific autophagy through Atg32 processing. Given the high similarity of the MDC pathway to piecemeal autophagy and the fact that both pathways share some of the core components, the authors should address the involvement of Atg32 in their model. It would also be important to include a brief discussion addressing the differences between piecemeal autophagy and the MDC pathway.

      (2) The Rpt3 (P215L) expression experiment is interesting, but appears to be somewhat superficial due to the unclear mechanism by which the mitochondrial network morphology is restored in these cells. Could this result be replicated in the dnm1∆ mgm1∆ double deletion mutant, which is a well-established model for mitochondrial network restoration?

      (3) Figure 3E. The changes in PE levels appear to be minor. While statistically significant, the observed differences may not be physiologically relevant. More in-depth lipidomic analysis data should be presented to substantiate the authors' argument and better address the questions at hand. Related to that, could PE or PA supplementation stimulate MDC formation?

      (4) The connection between rapamycin treatment and Yme1-regulated MDC formation is unclear and puzzling and needs to be explained better.

      (5) The MICOS complex is clearly involved in the regulation of MDC, but the manuscript misses the mark on providing compelling evidence and a clear explanation as to how MICOS contributes to said regulation.

      Minor points:

      (1) The authors should discuss potential reasons for the dramatically different rates of MDC formation in the S288C and W303 background cells. Does this have anything to do with generally more robust mitochondrial functions in the latter cells?

      (2) Proper statistical analyses should be provided for all the graphs presented.

      (3) The authors should include Yme1 immunoblots to confirm the identity of strains being studied and validate the presence or overexpression of Yme1 and its catalytic mutant in their experiments.

    4. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Since describing MDCs over a decade ago, the lab of the corresponding author, Hughes, has been at the forefront of further characterizing these structures. Here, they follow up on recent work (PMID: 38497895), where a screen identified Yme1 as a potential regulator of MDCs. After confirming that Yme1-ko prevents MDCs that are usually induced via various established treatments (Rapamycin, cycloheximide, Concanavalin A), the authors confirmed that the proteolytic activity of Yme1 is required. Next, using proteomics, they identified how loss of Yme1 impacts the mitochondrial proteome with and without Rapamycin treatment to induce MDCs. From this result and based on insight from other published data implicating lipids, the focused initially on the lipid transfer protein Usp2, a known target of Yme1. Here, they showed that loss of Usp2 could partially rescue MDC formation in Yme1-ko cells. To look for other Yme1 targets that might also be involved in MDC formation, next, they investigated the MICOS complex, which was also notable in their proteomics data. They then showed that inhibiting MICOS also partially restored MDC formation in Yme1-ko cells. They then tested the combined effects of Usp2 and MDC inhibition on MDCs, which was limited by the fact that the combination of full MICOS disruption, Usp2-KO, and Yme1-KO was not viable. To circumvent this limitation, they investigated the knockout of individual MICOS subunits in combination with Usp2 and/or Yme1. Finally, they showed that growth conditions also mediate MDC formation in the context of Yme1 overexpression. In rich media, Yme1 overexpression induces MDCs on its own. However, this induction is lost upon amino acid starvation, suggesting that there are still other as-yet-unidentified factors regulating the formation of MDCs.

      Strengths:

      The authors use unbiased approaches and genetic models to begin unraveling a novel regulatory role of Yme1 in the formation of MDCs.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The authors find both Ups1 and Ups2 in their screens, but only focus on Ups2 in this paper. It would be good to know why they did not also investigate Ups1, and its other protease Atp23, which could potentially act similarly to Yme1, or even rescue the loss of Yme1.

      (2) I'm not convinced that the data support the notion that Usp2 and MICOS have distinct effects on MDCs. In Figure S3C-D, there is no statistical analysis to indicate whether the small differences between the MICOS-ko and the double knockout are significant. If MICOS-ko and Ups2-ko were acting through different mechanisms, one would expect their combination to be additive; this does not appear to be the case, as both single deletions and the double deletion all cause similar levels of MDCs (~30-40%). Rather, this result is what you would expect if they were working through the same mechanism. There also does not appear to be an additive effect in Figure 4F-G, when using the mic60-ko rather than the complete MICOS-ko. In this regard, the authors note in their discussion that 'loss of MICOS may disrupt membrane associations or alter lipid distribution between mitochondrial subcompartments' (lines 390-392). The latter situation seems like it would be the same mechanism as Usp2 and would more accurately explain their findings.

      (3) The manuscript is missing key data confirming the re-expression or overexpression of Yme1 protein (Figure 1 E/G and Figure 5A). It is important to know the relative levels of expression of the re-expressed proteins to each other and to endogenous Yme1.

      (4) Some clarification of the details for metabolically restrictive conditions would be helpful.

      (5) Beyond just the presence/absence of MDCs, does more detailed quantification of their size/shape reveal any subtle differences between conditions?

    5. Author response:

      We thank the editors and reviewers for their thoughtful and constructive evaluation of our manuscript. We are pleased that the reviewers found the study valuable and the evidence supporting a role for Yme1 in MDC formation solid. As described below, we plan to modify the manuscript to clarify the lipid model, better explain the relationship between Ups-family proteins and MICOS, distinguish MDC formation from Atg32-dependent mitophagy, clarify metabolic conditions, add statistical analyses where missing, and strengthen Yme1 validation with immunoblotting.

      eLife Assessment

      This valuable study demonstrates that the inner membrane protease YME1 contributes to the formation of mitochondrial-derived compartments in yeast through the modulation of both the lipid transporter UPS2 and the MICOS complex. The evidence supporting this model is solid, although this manuscript could be improved by providing additional evidence supporting the independent roles for UPS2 and MICOS regulation in this process. This work will be of interest to cell biologists, biochemists, and geneticists interested in understanding the molecular basis of mitochondrial regulation and function.

      We appreciate this positive assessment and agree that the roles of Ups-family lipid transport and MICOS in MDC regulation could be expanded further. This will be an important topic for future studies, especially with regard to how MICOS contributes to MDC formation. In the current revision, we will add new genetic data focused on PA-linked lipid metabolism through the yeast Pah1/Lipin pathway, which we think will help strengthen and clarify the lipid arm of the model. Our current interpretation is that Yme1-regulated Ups-family lipid transport and MICOS may both influence a shared mitochondrial membrane state that permits MDC formation. This interpretation is consistent with our genetic data and with known connections between Ups proteins, MICOS, and mitochondrial membrane organization.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, Balasubramaniam and colleagues continue this group's efforts to understand mitochondrial-derived compartments (MDCs) that bud off from yeast mitochondria in response to metabolic stress. In a previous genetic screen, they identified Ups lipid transfer proteins and the AAA-protease Yme1 as components that modulate MDC formation. In this study, the authors link these observations by showing that Yme1 modulates levels of Ups1, Ups2, as well as MICOS complex members in the mitochondrial proteome. Using genetic approaches, they then show that Yme1's role on MDCs is dependent on its catalytic activity (via an inactive mutant) and that YME1 shows genetic interactions with UPS1/2 and MIC10/MIC60. The overall model is that Yme1 activity responds to metabolic cues and acts via proteolysis of these two distinct mitochondrial machineries to regulate MDC biogenesis.

      Strengths:

      The strengths of the study are its integration of mitochondrial proteomics with strong genetic approaches, as well as synergy with the authors' previous studies on the role of lipids in MD genesis. The work is overall well carried-out and experiments are thoughtfully discussed.

      Weaknesses:

      The major weaknesses are a lack of mechanistic resolution surrounding the model, e.g., proposed or tested mechanisms by which Yme1 activity is regulated by metabolic cues, or how Ups1/2 activity and the MICOS contribute to MDC generation. The authors acknowledge these as open questions, but addressing them would still enhance the significance of the study.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive assessment, and we agree that the upstream regulation of this response remains an important open question. Yme1-dependent MDC regulation could involve changes in Yme1 activity, substrate accessibility, or broader changes in mitochondrial lipid and protein organization. Fully resolving how metabolic state gates this response will require future work, likely outside the scope of the current study.

      We also agree that the manuscript would benefit from a more developed discussion of how lipid changes could contribute to MDC formation. Our prior work showed that reduced mitochondrial PE promotes MDC formation, whereas cardiolipin is required for MDC biogenesis (Xiao et al., 2024). We proposed that reduced PE changes the membrane environment of mitochondrial outer membrane proteins, potentially affecting their stability, abundance, insertion, or lateral organization within the membrane. Such changes could increase the pool of proteins available for sorting into MDCs or make the outer membrane more permissive for domain formation. In the revision, we will connect this model more directly to Yme1-dependent regulation of Ups-family lipid transport.

      We will also expand the model to incorporate PA-linked metabolism. We did not initially focus heavily on Ups1 because complete loss of UPS1, or loss of downstream cardiolipin synthesis through CRD1, blocks MDC formation because cardiolipin is required. Thus, complete disruption of Ups1-dependent lipid transport may obscure the effects of more moderate changes in PA flux. To address this, we will include additional lipid measurements and new genetic data targeting PA metabolism through the yeast Pah1/Lipin pathway. Because Pah1 converts PA to DAG, this provides a way to alter PA-linked metabolism without simply eliminating cardiolipin synthesis. Our new data suggest that PA accumulation or altered PA-linked lipid flux may also promote MDC formation. Together, these findings support a broader model in which reduced PE and increased PA alter both the organization of OMM proteins and the physical properties of the membrane, including curvature and domain formation, thereby creating a membrane state that is more permissive for MDC biogenesis.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      In this manuscript, the authors report a novel regulation of the outer mitochondrial membrane remodeling domains called mitochondria-derived compartments, MDCs. The team has previously established the main principles behind this recently identified quality control pathway, but the mechanisms that control MDCs formation remain incompletely understood. Using the baker's yeast model, the authors identify the conserved mitochondrial protease Yme1 as a crucial factor that regulates MDC formation. Mechanistically, Yme1's proteolytic function controls the levels of Ups1 and Ups2 lipid transfer proteins and the components of the membrane organizing complex called MICOS, thus providing a plausible model as to how Yme1-dependent proteolysis permits MDC formation through the removal of lipid and MICOS-dependent constraints. Finally, the authors show that this Yme1-mediated activity is also defined by metabolic conditions. In principle, this study is interesting and novel, and holds potential to provide new insights into the regulation of the MDC pathway that emerged as a new fundamental mitochondrial quality control mechanism. However, the following points should be carefully addressed.

      Major points:

      (1) Yme1 has been previously shown to regulate mitochondria-specific autophagy through Atg32 processing. Given the high similarity of the MDC pathway to piecemeal autophagy and the fact that both pathways share some of the core components, the authors should address the involvement of Atg32 in their model. It would also be important to include a brief discussion addressing the differences between piecemeal autophagy and the MDC pathway.

      We agree that this is an important point. The reason we did not focus on Atg32 in the current manuscript is that we previously investigated the relationship between MDC formation and Atg32-dependent mitophagy and found that Atg32 is dispensable for MDC formation (Hughes et al., 2016). Based on that result, we do not anticipate that Atg32 is required for the Yme1-dependent MDC phenotypes described here. This is also consistent with the different growth conditions associated with these pathways: Atg32-dependent mitophagy is stimulated under respiratory or post-diauxic conditions, whereas MDCs do not form under the respiratory conditions that stimulate Atg32-dependent mitophagy (Hughes et al., 2016; Raghuram and Hughes, 2024).

      We will clarify this distinction in the revised manuscript. In addition, to be thorough, we plan to generate and test the Atg32-GFP variant previously shown to block Yme1-dependent Atg32 processing and mitophagy (Wang et al., 2013). This will allow us to test directly whether preventing Yme1-dependent Atg32 cleavage affects MDC formation. If successful and interpretable, we will include these data in the revised manuscript.

      (2) The Rpt3 (P215L) expression experiment is interesting, but appears to be somewhat superficial due to the unclear mechanism by which the mitochondrial network morphology is restored in these cells. Could this result be replicated in the dnm1∆ mgm1∆ double deletion mutant, which is a well-established model for mitochondrial network restoration?

      We agree that the Rpt3(P215L) experiment is best viewed as a morphology control. The purpose was to test whether abnormal mitochondrial morphology alone explains the MDC defect in yme1Δ cells. Because Rpt3(P215L) improved mitochondrial morphology but did not restore MDC formation, we interpret this as evidence that morphology alone is not sufficient.

      We attempted to generate the requested dnm1Δ mgm1Δ yme1Δ triple-mutant combination, but that strain combination has not been viable in our hands. However, we do have dnm1Δ data showing that altering mitochondrial structure can rescue some morphological features but does not restore MDC formation in yme1Δ cells. We will include these data where appropriate and clarify that this experiment is intended as a morphology control.

      (3) Figure 3E. The changes in PE levels appear to be minor. While statistically significant, the observed differences may not be physiologically relevant. More in-depth lipidomic analysis data should be presented to substantiate the authors' argument and better address the questions at hand. Related to that, could PE or PA supplementation stimulate MDC formation?

      We agree that additional lipid data would strengthen this part of the manuscript. We initially streamlined the lipid section because we had previously examined the lipid requirements for MDC formation in detail, showing that reduced mitochondrial PE can promote MDC formation, whereas cardiolipin is required (Xiao et al., 2024). However, the current study would benefit from a broader analysis of the lipid changes associated with Yme1-dependent regulation.

      In the revision, we will expand the lipid data to include additional lipid species and incorporate these results into the model. We will also add new genetic data targeting PA metabolism through the yeast Pah1/Lipin pathway. Together, these data suggest that PA accumulation or altered PA-linked lipid flux may also contribute to MDC formation. This supports a broader lipid-balance or lipid-shunting model in which reduced PE, increased PA, or altered lipid distribution between mitochondrial membranes could influence OMM remodeling through effects on membrane curvature, OMM protein organization, or mitochondrial membrane contacts.

      We agree that direct PE or PA supplementation would be a valuable experiment. We have attempted lipid supplementation but have not been able to deliver these lipids effectively to yeast cells in a way that produces interpretable results. We are therefore focusing on lipid profiling and genetic approaches that alter lipid metabolism inside the cell.

      (4) The connection between rapamycin treatment and Yme1-regulated MDC formation is unclear and puzzling and needs to be explained better.

      We agree that this connection is not fully clear. In this manuscript, rapamycin is used primarily as a robust MDC-inducing condition. Our data do not define the full pathway connecting TORC1 inhibition to Yme1-dependent mitochondrial remodeling.

      In the revision, we will either clarify this point or reduce the emphasis on rapamycin as a mechanistic entry point. Our current interpretation is that rapamycin creates a metabolic/mitochondrial state in which Yme1-dependent remodeling of lipid and membrane-organization pathways becomes important for MDC formation. Whether this involves direct regulation of Yme1, altered substrate availability, altered membrane composition, or a combination of these remains open.

      (5) The MICOS complex is clearly involved in the regulation of MDC, but the manuscript misses the mark on providing compelling evidence and a clear explanation as to how MICOS contributes to said regulation.

      We agree that the mechanism by which MICOS regulates MDC formation remains an important open question and will be a major focus of future work. Our current data show that MICOS perturbation can partially restore MDC formation in yme1Δ cells, supporting a role for MICOS in this pathway. This analysis was motivated in part by the incomplete genetic suppression achieved through the lipid pathway alone, which suggested that additional Yme1-regulated factors contribute to MDC formation.

      MICOS therefore represents a strong candidate for this additional regulatory input. However, defining whether MICOS acts through lipid distribution, OMM-IMM organization, membrane architecture, or another mechanism will require a deeper investigation than is possible within the scope of the current study. We will clarify this point in the revised manuscript and present the current findings as the beginning of a broader investigation into how MICOS contributes to MDC biogenesis.

      Minor points:

      (1) The authors should discuss potential reasons for the dramatically different rates of MDC formation in the S288C and W303 background cells. Does this have anything to do with generally more robust mitochondrial functions in the latter cells?

      We agree this is worth discussing. One likely explanation is that the difference reflects broader differences in mitochondrial activity and metabolic state between these strain backgrounds. We and others have shown that W303 cells have more robust respiratory mitochondrial function than BY/S288C-derived cells, and in our hands W303 also shows lower MDC formation. This fits our broader model that MDCs are favored in glucose-grown or metabolically perturbed cells and do not form under respiratory conditions (Raghuram and Hughes, 2024). We do not yet know the genetic basis for this difference, so we will present this as an interesting future direction.

      (2) Proper statistical analyses should be provided for all the graphs presented.

      We will add statistical analyses where missing.

      (3) The authors should include Yme1 immunoblots to confirm the identity of strains being studied and validate the presence or overexpression of Yme1 and its catalytic mutant in their experiments.

      We agree that direct validation of Yme1 protein levels will strengthen the manuscript. Our quantitative mitochondrial proteomics already confirms strong depletion of Yme1 in yme1Δ cells, and we will also include quantitative proteomics showing increased Yme1 abundance in the overexpression strain. In addition, we have now obtained a Yme1 antibody from a colleague and will include immunoblots validating Yme1 loss, re-expression, catalytic mutant expression, and overexpression where appropriate.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Since describing MDCs over a decade ago, the lab of the corresponding author, Hughes, has been at the forefront of further characterizing these structures. Here, they follow up on recent work (PMID: 38497895), where a screen identified Yme1 as a potential regulator of MDCs. After confirming that Yme1-ko prevents MDCs that are usually induced via various established treatments (Rapamycin, cycloheximide, Concanavalin A), the authors confirmed that the proteolytic activity of Yme1 is required. Next, using proteomics, they identified how loss of Yme1 impacts the mitochondrial proteome with and without Rapamycin treatment to induce MDCs. From this result and based on insight from other published data implicating lipids, the focused initially on the lipid transfer protein Usp2, a known target of Yme1. Here, they showed that loss of Usp2 could partially rescue MDC formation in Yme1-ko cells. To look for other Yme1 targets that might also be involved in MDC formation, next, they investigated the MICOS complex, which was also notable in their proteomics data. They then showed that inhibiting MICOS also partially restored MDC formation in Yme1-ko cells. They then tested the combined effects of Usp2 and MDC inhibition on MDCs, which was limited by the fact that the combination of full MICOS disruption, Usp2-KO, and Yme1-KO was not viable. To circumvent this limitation, they investigated the knockout of individual MICOS subunits in combination with Usp2 and/or Yme1. Finally, they showed that growth conditions also mediate MDC formation in the context of Yme1 overexpression. In rich media, Yme1 overexpression induces MDCs on its own. However, this induction is lost upon amino acid starvation, suggesting that there are still other as-yet-unidentified factors regulating the formation of MDCs.

      Strengths:

      The authors use unbiased approaches and genetic models to begin unraveling a novel regulatory role of Yme1 in the formation of MDCs.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The authors find both Ups1 and Ups2 in their screens, but only focus on Ups2 in this paper. It would be good to know why they did not also investigate Ups1, and its other protease Atp23, which could potentially act similarly to Yme1, or even rescue the loss of Yme1.

      We agree that Ups1 and Atp23 are important to consider. We initially focused on Ups2 because its deletion partially restores MDC formation in yme1Δ cells and because of its connection to mitochondrial PE synthesis, which we had previously shown to regulate MDC formation (Xiao et al., 2024). Ups1 is more difficult to assess genetically because complete loss of UPS1, or of downstream cardiolipin synthesis through CRD1, blocks MDC formation due to the requirement for cardiolipin. Thus, an ups1Δ phenotype cannot readily reveal whether a more moderate reduction in Ups1 activity, and the resulting accumulation or redistribution of PA, might promote MDC formation.

      In the revision, we will explain this rationale and include new genetic data targeting PA metabolism through the yeast Pah1/Lipin pathway. This provides a way to test the contribution of PA accumulation without simultaneously eliminating cardiolipin synthesis, and our initial results support a role for PA-linked lipid remodeling in partially bypassing the requirement for Yme1. We will also discuss Atp23 as a potentially important regulator of Ups1 and PA metabolism. A full investigation of Atp23 will be an important direction for future work.

      (2) I'm not convinced that the data support the notion that Usp2 and MICOS have distinct effects on MDCs. In Figure S3C-D, there is no statistical analysis to indicate whether the small differences between the MICOS-ko and the double knockout are significant. If MICOS-ko and Ups2-ko were acting through different mechanisms, one would expect their combination to be additive; this does not appear to be the case, as both single deletions and the double deletion all cause similar levels of MDCs (~30-40%). Rather, this result is what you would expect if they were working through the same mechanism. There also does not appear to be an additive effect in Figure 4F-G, when using the mic60-ko rather than the complete MICOS-ko. In this regard, the authors note in their discussion that 'loss of MICOS may disrupt membrane associations or alter lipid distribution between mitochondrial subcompartments' (lines 390-392). The latter situation seems like it would be the same mechanism as Usp2 and would more accurately explain their findings.

      This is a very good point, and we agree with the reviewer’s interpretation. The lack of strong additivity is consistent with Ups2 and MICOS acting within the same pathway or converging on a shared mechanism, rather than representing two separate mechanisms of MDC regulation. We did not intend to imply that these must be independent pathways. In the revised manuscript, we will ensure that the text reflects this interpretation and will add statistical analyses to the relevant comparisons.

      (3) The manuscript is missing key data confirming the re-expression or overexpression of Yme1 protein (Figure 1 E/G and Figure 5A). It is important to know the relative levels of expression of the re-expressed proteins to each other and to endogenous Yme1.

      We agree that direct validation of Yme1 protein levels is important. Our quantitative mitochondrial proteomics already confirms strong depletion of Yme1 in yme1Δ cells, and we will also include quantitative proteomics showing increased Yme1 abundance in the overexpression strain. In addition, we have now obtained a Yme1 antibody from a colleague and will add immunoblots validating Yme1 loss, re-expression, catalytic mutant expression, and overexpression.

      (4) Some clarification of the details for metabolically restrictive conditions would be helpful.

      Thanks for this suggestion. We will clarify these conditions throughout the manuscript and figure legends and will define exactly what we mean by low-amino-acid, amino-acid-free, synthetic, and rich media conditions. More broadly, MDC formation is strongly influenced by media composition and mitochondrial metabolic state. MDCs form less efficiently in synthetic media and do not form under conditions that promote respiratory mitochondrial function (Raghuram and Hughes, 2024).

      (5) Beyond just the presence/absence of MDCs, does more detailed quantification of their size/shape reveal any subtle differences between conditions?

      This is an interesting question. In our hands, MDC size and shape are variable and appear strongly influenced by mitochondrial fission/fusion state. Conditions that favor more fused mitochondrial networks can produce larger MDC-like structures, whereas fragmented networks can produce smaller structures. So far, we have not found a simple size or shape metric that explains the Yme1/Ups2/MICOS phenotypes better than MDC frequency.

      We will clarify this point in the revised manuscript and avoid implying that MDC frequency captures every possible morphological difference. More detailed morphometric analysis of MDC size, topology, and maturation state will be an important future direction, especially as we connect lipid remodeling to membrane curvature and MDC biogenesis.

      References

      Hughes, A.L., Hughes, C.E., Henderson, K.A., Yazvenko, N., and Gottschling, D.E. 2016. Selective sorting and destruction of mitochondrial membrane proteins in aged yeast. eLife. 5. doi: 10.7554/eLife.13943.

      Raghuram, N., and Hughes, A.L. 2024. Amino acids trigger MDC-dependent mitochondrial remodeling by altering mitochondrial function. bioRxiv. 2024.07.09.602707. doi: 10.1101/2024.07.09.602707.

      Wang, K., Jin, M., Liu, X., and Klionsky, D.J. 2013. Proteolytic processing of Atg32 by the mitochondrial i-AAA protease Yme1 regulates mitophagy. Autophagy. 9(11):1828–1836. doi: 10.4161/auto.26281.

      Xiao, T., English, A.M., Wilson, Z.N., Maschek, J.A., Cox, J.E., and Hughes, A.L. 2024. The phospholipids cardiolipin and phosphatidylethanolamine differentially regulate MDC biogenesis. Journal of Cell Biology. 223(5). doi: 10.1083/jcb.202302069.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This important study investigates the peptide-binding principles of promiscuous chicken MHC molecules. The data from crystallography, mass spectrometry, and modeling are convincing. However, the presentation would benefit from streamlining and clear links between data and conclusions. This paper will be of broad interest to immunologists and those interested in vaccine development.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Combining in vitro refolding, SEC-based assembly assays, peptide-library screening, MALDI-TOF, LC-MS/MS, structural analysis and immunopeptidomics, this manuscript investigates the peptide-binding principles of the promiscuous chicken MHC-I molecule BF2*21:01.

      Strengths:

      Although the peptide motif of BF2*21:01 is highly complex, this manuscript identified several principles, including a preference for 10-mer peptides, co-variation between P2 and Pc-2, effects of P3 and Pc-3, and a strong cellular preference for Leu at Pc. The results are important for avian MHC biology and poultry vaccine epitope prediction.

      Weaknesses:

      The manuscript is sometimes difficult to follow because the authors present a large amount of peptide-library, structural and immunopeptidomics data. without always clearly explaining how these datasets support the proposed simplifying principles.

      Major Issues - Points Requiring Clarification or Additional Support:

      (1)(Line 282-301, 537-545)<br /> The immunopeptidomics conclusions are mainly based on one B21 cell line with one biological replicate and at least two technical replicates. Given the complexity of the BF2*21:01 peptide repertoire, this is a major limitation. The authors should either provide additional biological replicates or clearly state this limitation in the Abstract, Results and Discussion.

      (2) (Lines 290-313)<br /> The B21 cell preparations contain both BF2 and the lowly expressed BF1 molecule. Some peptides, especially 8-mers or peptides with atypical motifs, may derive from BF1*21:01. The authors should clarify how BF2*21:01-bound peptides were distinguished from possible BF1-derived peptides, or interpret the immunopeptidomics motif more cautiously. The authors should also provide or cite evidence confirming the B21 haplotype identity of the cell line and chicken materials used for immunopeptidomics.

      (3) (Lines 217-221, 243-253)<br /> The authors acknowledge that MALDI-TOF cannot reliably distinguish peptide combinations with identical or similar masses, nor determine residue positions in some cases. Therefore, MALDI-TOF results should not be overinterpreted as precise evidence for residue preference. The authors should clearly indicate which conclusions are supported by LC-MS/MS.

      (4) (Lines 297-301, 316-330)<br /> The authors suggest that longer peptides may bulge in the middle or extend out of the groove at the C-terminal end. The rationale for the C-terminal extension is not clearly explained. Why is the C-terminal extension considered rather than the N-terminal extension? If the binding register is uncertain, long peptides should be analyzed separately from canonical-length peptides.

      (5) (Lines 406-439)<br /> In vitro assembly assays show that several hydrophobic residues can be tolerated at Pc, whereas immunopeptidomics shows a strong Leu preference at this position. The authors should clarify whether this Leu preference reflects intrinsic BF2*21:01 binding specificity, TAP-mediated peptide transport, antigen processing, peptide loading, or a cell-line-specific effect. Additional experimental support, such as TAP transport analysis, would strengthen this conclusion.

      (6) (Lines 172-178, 243-279, 442-457)<br /> The structural analysis explains some residue combinations, such as Arg at P2 with Glu at Pc-2 or Trp at Pc. However, the structural interpretation is not fully integrated with the large-scale peptide library and immunopeptidomics results. Representative high- and low-frequency combinations should be discussed structurally.

      (7) The inference of co-variation between P2 and Pc-2, as well as the modulatory effects of P3 and Pc-3, should be better explained. At present, some conclusions appear to be based mainly on residue-frequency patterns, and the logical connection between these observations and the proposed binding principles is not always clear. Statistical analyses, such as mutual information, chi-square tests or permutation tests, and representative structural explanations would strengthen this conclusion.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The study presents an in-depth analysis of the peptide repertoire bound by a promiscuous chicken MHC molecule using mass spectrometry, x-ray crystallography and modelling. While the MHC can bind a very diverse set of peptides, the authors have found some new rules that govern peptide binding to this MHC that could help to build a predictive model to study the repertoire of pathogen-derived peptides.

      Strengths:

      The study uses a range of well performed experiment across multiple techniques and provides an in-depth analysis of the peptide repertoire, including peptide sequences, length, preferred residues, stability and MHC presentation.

      Weaknesses:

      The data overall support the analysis and conclusion well. The only caveat is linked to Figure 4, which does not describe the stability of the peptide-MHC complex, but instead shows refold yield, and the two are not always linked.

    4. Author response:

      eLife Assessment

      This important study investigates the peptide-binding principles of promiscuous chicken MHC molecules. The data from crystallography, mass spectrometry, and modeling are convincing. However, the presentation would benefit from streamlining and clear links between data and conclusions. This paper will be of broad interest to immunologists and those interested in vaccine development.

      Overall, we are delighted and grateful to the eLife editors and the two reviewers for the careful and thoughtful assessments and reviews of our paper. We are glad that the strengths of the paper were apparent and appreciated. And of course, every paper has weaknesses, especially for a story as complex as this one.

      We are making only minor changes in our revision, so we would be happy if the editors decide to evaluate the revised manuscript without involving the reviewers further.

      Before answering the comments and questions directly, perhaps a few points would help clarify why the paper is as it is.

      First, the experiments cover over three decades of work, with the first gas phase sequencing results done in 1992. Unlike some of the chicken class I alleles which immediately gave completely clear stringent motifs (B4, B12 and B15 in Wallny et al 2006 PNAS, B19 in Han et al 2023 J Immunol), we harvested nothing but confusion from the B21 class I results (Fig. 1). Initially, we thought that the lack of a clear motif for B21 was due to multiple well-expressed class I molecules but only one dominantly-expressed class I molecule was found (Wallny et al 2006 PNAS, Shaw et al 2007 J Immunol) and, to our surprise, bacterially-expressed BF2*21:01 heavy chain and b2-microglobulin refolded with two synthetic peptides without sequence in common, and the crystal structures showed that this molecule remodeled the binding site to accommodate two such disparate peptides (Koch et al 2008 Immunity). This was the beginning of our understanding of the spectrum of class I alleles from promiscuous generalists to fastidious specialists, which we have explored in a series of further papers (in particular, Chappell et al 2015 eLife, Tresgaskes et al 2016 PNAS, Kaufman 2018 Trends Immunol, Tregaskes and Kaufman 2022 Mol Immunol).

      Second, over these many years, we continued to explore the binding properties of BF2*21:01 in ever more detail, resulting in the current manuscript. We learned only slowly how to probe this unexpected promiscuity, unprecedented in the MHC literature, so that the experiments proceeded with our best understanding at the time, including taking advantage of new approaches as they become available. Each experiment built on the previous set of experiments and each brought us closer to an understanding.

      Third, having amassed a collection of data, we chose eLIFE exactly because it allows us to present the entire story from beginning to end without compromise, not just the highlights with the major points illustrated by a few main figures and with the supporting data in many supplementary figures. We include all the data, because it is all part of the story, and so interested researchers to look at the data from their own perspective. Although mostly we provide bar graphs, we include the raw data (or close to it) for the final experiments (illustrated by Figs. 10 and 18) in the single supplementary data spreadsheet, so these can be assessed easily by others in the field, perhaps using approaches that we may not feel competent to perform.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Combining in vitro refolding, SEC-based assembly assays, peptide-library screening, MALDI-TOF, LC-MS/MS, structural analysis and immunopeptidomics, this manuscript investigates the peptide-binding principles of the promiscuous chicken MHC-I molecule BF2*21:01.

      Strengths:

      Although the peptide motif of BF2*21:01 is highly complex, this manuscript identified several principles, including a preference for 10-mer peptides, co-variation between P2 and Pc-2, effects of P3 and Pc-3, and a strong cellular preference for Leu at Pc. The results are important for avian MHC biology and poultry vaccine epitope prediction.

      Weaknesses:

      The manuscript is sometimes difficult to follow because the authors present a large amount of peptide-library, structural and immunopeptidomics data. without always clearly explaining how these datasets support the proposed simplifying principles.

      We are delighted and grateful to the reviewer 1 for the careful and thoughtful comments and questions concerning our manuscript. We are glad that the strengths of the paper were apparent and appreciated, and acknowledge the weaknesses that come with such a complex story with experiments performed over decades.

      Major Issues - Points Requiring Clarification or Additional Support:

      (1) (Line 282-301, 537-545)

      The immunopeptidomics conclusions are mainly based on one B21 cell line with one biological replicate and at least two technical replicates. Given the complexity of the BF2*21:01 peptide repertoire, this is a major limitation. The authors should either provide additional biological replicates or clearly state this limitation in the Abstract, Results and Discussion.

      This limitation is clearly stated in lines 537-545, as part of a paragraph covering the various ways in which the data presented in this manuscript could be improved. In fact, we have performed immunopeptidomics of several different B21 cell types, with many replicates and found similar data as presented, giving us confidence in our interpretations. However, these other experiments belong in different stories, so it is not appropriate that the data be reported in this manuscript.

      (2) (Lines 290-313)

      The B21 cell preparations contain both BF2 and the lowly expressed BF1 molecule. Some peptides, especially 8-mers or peptides with atypical motifs, may derive from BF1*21:01. The authors should clarify how BF2*21:01-bound peptides were distinguished from possible BF1-derived peptides, or interpret the immunopeptidomics motif more cautiously. The authors should also provide or cite evidence confirming the B21 haplotype identity of the cell line and chicken materials used for immunopeptidomics.

      The concern about the contribution of BF1*21:01 to the immunopeptidomics is clearly stated in the manuscript, both lines 290-313 and as part of the paragraph describing the limitations of the experiments (lines 542-543). In fact, the expression of BF1 molecules has long been known to be less than 10% of BF2 molecules at the RNA level, and much less at the protein level (Wallny et al 2006 PNAS, Shaw et al 2007 J Immunol). The proportion of 8mers identified by immunopeptidomics is also low (Fig. 14), and it is not impossible that most 8mers are due to BF1*21:01. We have used assembly assays with peptide libraries, immunopeptidomics and a crystal structure to determine the peptide motif for typical BF1 molecules, of which BF1*21:01 is one and found it may contribute to 8mer peptides but very seldom to longer peptides. This work is unpublished but gives us confidence that the characteristics of BF2*21:01 are not misrepresented by the data in this manuscript.

      The sources of the chicken samples and the cell lines are described in detail under Materials and Methods (lines 577-590), citing relevant publications. 

      (3) (Lines 217-221, 243-253)

      The authors acknowledge that MALDI-TOF cannot reliably distinguish peptide combinations with identical or similar masses, nor determine residue positions in some cases. Therefore, MALDI-TOF results should not be over-interpreted as precise evidence for residue preference. The authors should clearly indicate which conclusions are supported by LC-MS/MS.

      As described, the experiments follow each other in temporal sequence, so that we started with single peptides, then peptide libraries that varied in one position, then peptide libraries that varied in two positions first analysed by MALDI-TOF and later by LC-MS/MS. The final experiment (Fig. 10, with the original data in the supplementary spreadsheet) directly compares MALDI-TOF and LC-MS/MS results for six peptide libraries, so that the strength of the evidence for residue preference is clear. Throughout the manuscript, we do our best to not to overstate conclusions based on the data of any particular experiment.

      (4) (Lines 297-301, 316-330)

      The authors suggest that longer peptides may bulge in the middle or extend out of the groove at the C-terminal end. The rationale for the C-terminal extension is not clearly explained. Why is the C-terminal extension considered rather than the N-terminal extension? If the binding register is uncertain, long peptides should be analyzed separately from canonical-length peptides.

      When the first sequence of a chicken class I cDNA was determined, an immediate mystery was why one of the so-called invariant residues that coordinate the N- and C-termini of the bound peptide is not conserved (Kaufman et al 1992 J Immunol). In fact, this residue Tyr at position 86 in HLA-A2 and the equivalent position in all mammalian classical class I molecules is an Arg in the classical class I molecules of all non-mammalian vertebrates and is common with class II molecules (Kaufman et al 1995 Semin Immunol). Similar to class II molecules, this Arg in chicken class I molecules allows the peptide to extend out of the C-terminus, as shown by a crystal structure (Xiao et al 2018 J Immunol). The concern that we might be misidentifying the C-terminal amino acid was the basis for the analysis in Figs. 23 and 24, but in the absence of crystal structures, we are not able to provide a final answer this question. Perhaps relevant is the fact that a chicken class II molecule can bind exactly the same peptide in two conformations, one with a canonical 9mer core and the other with an unexpected 10mer core (Goryanin et al 2026 J Virol).

      By contrast, N-terminal extensions are only found for some class I alleles and thus far depend on the substitution of small amino acid sidechains for W166 (Li et al 2011 J Virol for bovine, Ma et al 2020 J Immunol for Xenopus, Wei et al 2022 J Immunol for ovine). Thus far, no chicken BF2 sequences have this substitution, consonant with the many crystal structures, including those for BF2*21:01 (Koch et al 2008 Immunity, Chappell et al 2015 eLlife, this manuscript). However, in unpublished data, we find that most BF1 sequences have sequence differences that could allow N-terminal extensions, although we have no crystal structures to support this possibility.

      (5) (Lines 406-439)

      In vitro assembly assays show that several hydrophobic residues can be tolerated at Pc, whereas immunopeptidomics shows a strong Leu preference at this position. The authors should clarify whether this Leu preference reflects intrinsic BF2*21:01 binding specificity, TAP-mediated peptide transport, antigen processing, peptide loading, or a cell-line-specific effect. Additional experimental support, such as TAP transport analysis, would strengthen this conclusion.

      The preference for Leu at the final position of the peptide by immunopeptidomics of the B21 cell line is strong but not absolute and is certainly affected at the least by the length of the peptide (Figs. 23 and 24). Unpublished immunopeptidomics results (mentioned above) show that this is not a cell line-specific result. The evidence from assembly assays of various peptides is that several hydrophobic amino acids are tolerated with sufficient stability of BF2*21:01 that they are detected in the assay (Figs. 3, 5, 9 and 10). Thermostability assays (Fig. 6) show that peptides with these same hydrophobic amino acids are stable to at least body temperature of chickens. These experiments show that such stability is peptide-dependent (that is, whether a particular amino acid is tolerated depends on the stability conferred by the rest of the peptide). Finally, peptide translocation assays using B21 cells have been done (Tregaskes et al 2016 PNAS) and show that peptides with several hydrophobic amino acids can be pumped into the lumen of the endoplasmic reticulum. However, the assays are with single synthetic peptides, so the data are not extensive enough to separate the effects of the final amino acid from the rest of the peptide. Certainly, peptides with amino acids other than Leu at the C-terminus can be translocated. So, it is not yet clear at which point the preference for Leu at the C-terminus of the peptide arises.

      (6) (Lines 172-178, 243-279, 442-457)

      The structural analysis explains some residue combinations, such as Arg at P2 with Glu at Pc-2 or Trp at Pc. However, the structural interpretation is not fully integrated with the large-scale peptide library and immunopeptidomics results. Representative high- and low-frequency combinations should be discussed structurally.

      Six crystal structures show that BF2*21:02 remodels the binding to accommodate a variety of anchor residues (Koch et al 2008 Immunity, Chappel et al 2015 eLife). These crystal structures are representative of sequences found by the immunopeptidomics from very frequent (H-E at roughly 15% 8-12mers) to moderately frequent (E-L at roughly 6% 8-12mers) to infrequent (N-F, A-D and E-D at roughly 1.5%, 1.6% and 0.7% 8-12mers) based on Fig. 18. All but one of the structures has Leu at the C-terminus, with the last one having Val which is found but not frequently by immunopeptidomics.

      Similar numbers are found by LC-MS/MS of double-substitution libraries of the two original peptide sequences in Fig. 10 with H-E found frequently (8.1% in P390, 3.8% in P498) and the others infrequently (0.1, 0.9, 1.0, 0.3% in P390, 0, 1.4, 1.0, 0.3% in P498), as calculated from the numbers in the Supplementary data spreadsheet. As discussed in the manuscript, for single-substitution peptide libraries of the two original peptides, Ile/Leu at the C-terminus was very frequent but at the same or slightly less level as Phe, with Met less frequent and Val even less so (Fig. 7).

      In addition, there are two more structures along with models explicitly testing some substitutions (Fig. 5). Attempting more current modelling approaches, we found AlphaFold 3 was unable to correctly predict most of the conformations that are found in the crystal structures of BF2*21:01, so we don’t feel confident in using them to predict unknown structures of this kind.

      (7) The inference of co-variation between P2 and Pc-2, as well as the modulatory effects of P3 and Pc-3, should be better explained. At present, some conclusions appear to be based mainly on residue-frequency patterns, and the logical connection between these observations and the proposed binding principles is not always clear. Statistical analyses, such as mutual information, chi-square tests or permutation tests, and representative structural explanations would strengthen this conclusion.

      We endeavored to do our best to explain the data, our interpretations and our reasoning, so we apologise if we have not managed to be as clear as might be desired. We have included as close to raw data as possible for the LC-MS/MS and MALDI-TOF (Fig. 10) and for the immunopeptidomics (Fig. 14 and 18) in the Supplementary Data spreadsheet, exactly so that competent practitioners can carry out further analyses (including the sophisticated statistical tests mentioned).

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The study presents an in-depth analysis of the peptide repertoire bound by a promiscuous chicken MHC molecule using mass spectrometry, x-ray crystallography and modelling. While the MHC can bind a very diverse set of peptides, the authors have found some new rules that govern peptide binding to this MHC that could help to build a predictive model to study the repertoire of pathogen-derived peptides.

      Strengths:

      The study uses a range of well performed experiment across multiple techniques and provides an in-depth analysis of the peptide repertoire, including peptide sequences, length, preferred residues, stability and MHC presentation.

      Weaknesses:

      The data overall support the analysis and conclusion well. The only caveat is linked to Figure 4, which does not describe the stability of the peptide-MHC complex, but instead shows refold yield, and the two are not always linked.

      We are grateful for the clear understanding of the strengths of the work. With regards to Fig. 4, we agree with the reviewer that there are differences in refold yield but that measure may not be correlated with stability of the peptide-MHC complex. However, we were basing our interpretation of stability on the position and quality of the monomer peak, as illustrated by the trace in Fig. 2, in which a sharp peak at the monomer position represents a stable complex (as seen for the 10 and 11mer peptides) and later peaks represent unstable complexes falling apart during the chromatography (as seen for the 7, 8 and 9mer peptides).

    1. eLife Assessment

      This study presents a valuable contribution to comparative cognitive neuroscience by directly mapping functional homologues of the human multiple-demand network in macaques using a matched spatial maze task. However, the evidence is incomplete due to methodological asymmetries in task design and preprocessing parameters that warrant careful consideration. The work will be of interest to researchers studying the evolution of cognitive control and cross-species neuroimaging.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The "multiple-demand" (MD) system is a well-known finding of human brain imaging and is thought to play a central role in cognitive control. To directly compare the MD system in humans and monkeys, Mione et al. used functional magnetic resonance imaging to measure whole-brain activation in a multi-step saccadic maze task. In humans, the authors found a distributed pattern of brain activity close match to the canonical MD network and extends to adjacent regions of dorsal attention and other networks. While there was good correspondence between monkey and human data, differences were also notable in the lateral frontal cortex, the dorsal parietal cortex, and the sensorimotor cortex.

      Strengths:

      Though previous data hint at a corresponding network in the macaque, there has been no direct comparison to human data. This study provides a direct cross-species comparison with whole-brain data from fMRI, and the findings suggest an extended and strongly interconnected brain network recruited by increased cognitive challenge.

      Weaknesses:

      In previous human imaging, the MD system is defined by overlapping activation for many kinds of cognitive demands. In the present work, however, the authors used just a single task. Although there is some overlap between the putative monkey MD network and the canonical MD network identified in human imaging, there should be caution in linking current findings to the MD system based on limited task events.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Mione et al. aim to resolve a long-standing question in comparative neuroscience: whether the macaque brain contains a functional analogue to the distributed human multiple-demand (MD) network. To address this, the authors employ a direct cross-species fMRI comparison using a multi-step saccadic maze task in humans and a simplified two-step version in macaques. By contrasting goal-directed navigation against a control condition that requires similar motor responses but no strategic planning, the study isolates the neural signatures of cognitive control across species.

      Strengths:

      The most compelling aspect of this work is its methodological alignment. Previous attempts to compare these systems often relied on comparisons of human BOLD signals and macaque single-unit recordings. By running parallel fMRI protocols, the authors establish a shared measurement basis that allows for a more direct comparison. The resulting activation maps clearly demonstrate conserved network topology across dorsomedial frontal, lateral, and medial parietal, and insula cortices. Combining these results with recent research on functional and structural connectivity further supports the idea that these networks evolved across species and provides a helpful starting point for future comparative studies. The findings will be highly useful for researchers investigating the evolutionary origins of domain-general cognitive control, as well as for neuroimaging methodologists developing cross-species alignment pipelines.

      Weaknesses:

      However, there are several differences in how the two groups were studied that make it harder to compare the results precisely. The human task mixed 2-, 4-, and 6-step trials within the same experimental blocks, whereas macaques performed only 2-step trials. This design difference likely places human participants in a state of sustained proactive cognitive control (Braver, 2012), as they must remain prepared for highly demanding trials at any moment. This elevated baseline arousal may artificially inflate MD network activation during the simpler 2-step trials in humans, making direct magnitude comparisons with the macaque data difficult. Additionally, the general linear model combined correct and error trials into a single regressor. Given that macaques exhibited substantially higher error rates, this approach risks diluting task-specific planning signals with activity related to error monitoring and reward prediction errors. The preprocessing pipeline also applied a 4 mm full-width half-maximum smoothing kernel to macaque data acquired at 1.5 mm resolution. Relative to the smaller size of the macaque brain, this kernel is quite large and likely blurs fine-grained topographical distinctions. This may partly explain why the macaque lateral frontal cortex shows a single dorsal activation patch rather than multiple discrete patches seen in humans. Furthermore, there is concerning inter-individual variability in the macaque data. Normally, a functional network like the MD system is identified by consistent activation across all individuals. In this study, however, the two monkeys show substantially different activation maps and behavioral patterns. This lack of consistency renders the group-level results questionable, as it is unclear whether the group-level map represents a unified biological system or merely an average of disparate individual maps. Finally, the subcortical activations shown in Figure 7 require more precise anatomical localization to confidently distinguish cerebellar nodes from adjacent brainstem structures.

      The authors demonstrate a broad functional correspondence between human and macaque cognitive control networks, moving the field beyond speculative homology. The data suggest that an extended, interconnected network is recruited by cognitive challenge in both species; however, the strength of this claim is limited by the inter-individual variability and methodological constraints noted above. Assertions of precise topological equivalence should therefore be tempered. The absence of ventrolateral prefrontal and strong dorsal parietal activations in the macaque group analysis may reflect genuine biological differences, but could also stem from limited statistical power, excessive smoothing, or task-design asymmetries. While the overall conclusions are plausible, they would be significantly strengthened by a more explicit discussion of these limitations and additional analytical clarifications regarding individual-level consistency.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This valuable study provides the first broad cross-species evolutionary analysis of the pir multigene family in malaria parasites, showing that the family evolved through rapid duplication and loss while retaining a small number of conserved orthologs with essential functions. The authors identify pirC1 as a key determinant of parasite growth across multiple Plasmodium species. However, the work remains incomplete because the mechanistic role of PIRCl and its precise subcellular localization are not directly resolved.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript entitled "Essential function reflected in the phylodynamics of a multigene family - the pir genes of malaria parasites" by Jackson and colleagues investigates the global phylogeny of pir genes across 14 Plasmodium species and one Hepatocystis species. The authors also focus on the functional characterization of the conserved ortholog pirC1 and claim that pirC1 is not the founder of the family and that it plays an essential role in blood-stage growth.

      Strengths:

      Overall, the manuscript is well written and interesting, as it combines comparative genomics and evolutionary analysis with functional experiments. The phylogenetic analysis is rigorous and represents a major strength of the manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      The general conclusions regarding the potential function of this gene family are not fully supported by the data presented. The manuscript moves too quickly from growth phenotype and localization studies to a specific mechanistic model. The discussion argues that PIRC1 may be involved in nutrient acquisition, host sensing, or metabolic support, but the data provided do not directly support these functions, and the manuscript in its present form remains speculative. Although the manuscript includes some experimental results, it lacks direct mechanistic validation of the specific functions of the pir genes, including pirC1. In its current form, the study does not yet establish a definitive role for pirC1 in metabolic processes.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This is an extensive study using phylogenetic comparison across multiple plasmodium species to gain new insights in relation to their evolutionary pathways and the potential function of pir. In addition to establishing a framework to identify related orthologues across species as well as expanding paralogues families within a species, the work also focuses on understanding loss and gain of different PIRs and how this indicates a relative lack of functional constraints and essentiality for most members of the gene family.

      The authors provide evidence that at least pirC has a conserved function and plays an important role in parasite growth in multiple species.

      While this study represents a significant effort and does provide interesting new insights that would help our understanding of this complex gene family in the future, it has a number of limitations.

      Strengths:

      Extensive and thorough phylogenetic analysis that is supported by some biological validation. Provides an indication that the PIR gene family has limited biological constraints and evolved independently across different species, leading to rapid expansion and deletion of orthologous groups. Identified pirC as a functional and important member of the family that is conserved across the species.

      Weaknesses:

      The phylogenetic tree is based on a truncated sequence that focuses on the more conserved parts of the pir sequence. This could potentially lead to missing the key functional drivers of evolution. The biological validation of the role of pirC has some inconsistencies that need to be addressed.

    4. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      This paper aims to classify, from an evolutionary perspective, the multigene family PIR found in malaria parasites infecting rodents and Old World monkeys, and to link this classification to functional diversification. The authors also hypothesize that PIR members conserved across species play important roles in parasite survival, and seek to clarify their functions.

      To achieve these aims, the authors comprehensively analyze the evolution of PIR genes using genomic and transcriptomic information from many malaria parasite species. They focus on PIRC1, a member conserved across species, and attempt to clarify its function in rodent and simian malaria parasites by examining the phenotypes of parasites in which the corresponding genetic locus has been disrupted. They also attempt to determine its localization using PIRC1 tagged with an epitope sequence. However, although the locus-disrupted parasites appear to show an approximately 50% reduction in growth rate, this effect seems to be overestimated. Another weakness is that the cause of the reduced growth rate has not been clarified. The localization analysis also remains insufficiently conclusive.

      Therefore, I consider that the first half of the paper, consisting of the bioinformatics analyses, achieves the objective of comprehensively summarizing PIR and may become a reference paper for discussing the evolution and function of the PIR gene family. On the other hand, regarding the function of PIRC1, no clear conclusion can be drawn from the results presented, and several additional experiments are necessary.

      My major comments are as follows.

      (1) The claim that the failure of eight disruption attempts indicates that pirC1 is essential is too strong.

      Lines 319-321: The authors argue that a total of eight failed attempts to disrupt the pirC1 locus using two different construct designs suggest that pirC1 is essential in P. berghei. However, the failure of these attempts could also reflect technical issues with the construct design itself, such as the length of the homologous regions used for recombination, which are approximately 650 bp. Therefore, it is an overstatement to conclude that "pirC1 is essential for P. berghei blood-stage growth." Given that parasites with disruption of the corresponding locus could be obtained in both P. chabaudi and P. knowlesi, a more appropriate statement would be that "pirC1 is important for P. berghei blood-stage growth."

      (2) The data on the mCherry-expressing P. berghei line shown in Supplementary Figure 11 are insufficient.

      (a) Panel C: Southern blot analysis<br /> To conclusively identify the lower band in panel C as chromosome 1, additional probes specific to genes located on chromosomes 1 and 2 would be required. In addition, a parental parasite control should also be included. The Southern blot image of the parental parasite should show only a single band at the higher position, with no band at the lower position. Probes specific to chromosomes 1 and 2 would help demonstrate that the lower band corresponds to chromosome 1, rather than chromosome 2.

      To this end, the authors could describe the result as follows:<br /> "In the parental parasite, only a single band corresponding to chromosome 7 was detected, indicating that the smaller chromosome was genetically modified. The size of the lower band detected with the dhfr probe was identical to that of the band detected with the control chromosome 1 probe, but distinct from that detected with the chromosome 2 probe, indicating that chromosome 1 was modified."

      That said, this chromosome-level Southern blot analysis is not sufficient to demonstrate that the target PBANKA_0100500 locus was specifically modified. The authors should provide more direct evidence showing that the PBANKA_0100500 locus, rather than another genomic locus, was modified. For example, Southern blot analysis after restriction enzyme digestion would provide more definitive evidence. Diagnostic PCR may also provide more specific evidence.

      (b) Panel D: Flow cytometry analysis

      To allow a more accurate interpretation of the percentage of mCherry-positive cells, flow cytometry data for the parental parasite line should also be presented.

      (3) There are unclear points in the PCR results shown in Supplementary Figure 12.

      Supplementary Figure 12: In panel B, a PCR product should also be amplified from dPCHAS_0101200 using the P1-P3 primer pair. Why is this band absent? The authors should provide the uncropped electrophoresis image so that the larger band can be seen. In addition, if labels 1 and 2 indicate independent clones, this should be stated in the figure legend.

      (4) The growth rates of P. chabaudi and P. knowlesi parasites with disruption of the PIRC1 gene locus should be quantitatively analyzed.

      The growth rates of P. chabaudi and P. knowlesi are described only qualitatively, but they should be evaluated quantitatively. In Figure 4A, the parasitemia of wild-type P. chabaudi increases from approximately 6.1% on day 6 to approximately 15.6% on day 8, corresponding to a 3.8-fold increase. However, because parasite growth may already be affected by immune-mediated suppression at this stage, this value should be regarded as a minimum estimate. In contrast, the mutant increases from approximately 3.2% on day 8 to approximately 6.8% on day 10, corresponding to a 2.1-fold increase. Based on these values, the daily growth rate of the mutant appears to be reduced to at least approximately 56% of that of the wild type. Similarly, from the growth curve of P. knowlesi in Fig. 5A, the DMSO-treated group appears to increase approximately two-fold per day, whereas the rapamycin-treated group increases only approximately one-fold per day. Thus, P. knowlesi also appears to show an approximately 50% reduction in growth rate. Taken together, both P. chabaudi and P. knowlesi appear to reproducibly show an approximately 50% reduction in growth capacity. A reduction of this magnitude is difficult to describe as a "severe growth defect"; a more appropriate wording would be simply that the parasites "showed a growth defect." In addition, the terms "a severe growth defect" and "essential" appear to be overstated throughout the manuscript, and the wording should be toned down. Finally, I recommend presenting Figure 4A and Figure 5A on a logarithmic scale so that the trend in growth rates can be more intuitively appreciated from the graphs.

      (5) The evidence that disruption of the PIRC1 gene locus in P. knowlesi does not affect erythrocyte invasion is weak.

      The authors describe that "the developmental cycle of the parasites lacking PIRCl is slightly longer than that of parasites that produce PIRCl (line 383-384)," and appear to support this interpretation with data showing that "mutant parasites are significantly smaller than wild-type parasites (line 414)" and that "the DNA content in ML10-arrested parasites lacking PIRCl is lower than that of DMSO-treated parasites (line 417-418)" at 24 hours after invasion. However, a slightly longer developmental cycle alone does not seem sufficient to explain a 50% growth reduction.

      I think the erythrocyte invasion capacity has not been quantitatively evaluated, and therefore, the evidence supporting the conclusion that the phenotype of P. knowlesi parasites with disruption of the PIRC1 gene locus is unrelated to erythrocyte invasion is weak. The authors should assess invasion efficiency using purified merozoites. For P. chabaudi, it should also be possible to apply an in vitro or in vivo erythrocyte invasion assay similar to that used for other rodent malaria parasites, and this should be evaluated as well.

      (6) The authors should examine whether disruption of the PIRC1 gene locus results in a phenotype characterized by a reduced number of merozoites.

      Alternatively, the reduced DNA content in ML10-arrested parasites lacking PIRC1 (lines 416-417) could suggest that the number of merozoites formed per schizont may be reduced. To clarify this point, the authors should assess whether the number of merozoites per schizont is altered in P. knowlesi (and P. chabaudi parasites lacking PIRC1).

      (7) The authors propose the possibility that PIRC1 expressed in merozoites is released after invasion; however, the evidence that PIRC1 localizes to intracellular organelles is weak.

      Line 333: "a peripheral pattern around the parasite" is indicative of parasite plasma membrane, PV, or PVM. ", indicative of a parasitophorous vacuole (PV) or parasitophorous vacuole membrane (PVM) location" should be amended to ", indicative of parasite plasma membrane, a parasitophorous vacuole (PV) or parasitophorous vacuole membrane (PVM) location". In the Figure S14 image, red signals are uniformly detected from the merozoites formed in the schizont stage parasite (not really microorganelle patterns), but not from the PVM surrounding the schizont, suggesting parasite plasma membrane localization, not PVM. I agree that the signal is detected from the compartments extending into the iRBC cytosol, which may be difficult to explain if it is located on the parasite plasma membrane, but how frequently were such images seen?

      Figure 4D. In the images of liver-stage schizonts, AMA1 does not appear to localize to the micronemes in mature merozoites, suggesting this image is an immature schizont. Although PIRC1 appears to be expressed in liver-stage schizonts, it is difficult to clearly determine whether it localizes to intracellular organelles or to the parasite plasma membrane.

      To clarify the above points, the authors should examine whether PIRC1 is detected in intracellular organelles or around the merozoites by analyzing its localization in purified merozoites.

    5. Author response:

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript entitled "Essential function reflected in the phylodynamics of a multigene family - the pir genes of malaria parasites" by Jackson and colleagues investigates the global phylogeny of pir genes across 14 Plasmodium species and one Hepatocystis species. The authors also focus on the functional characterization of the conserved ortholog pirC1 and claim that pirC1 is not the founder of the family and that it plays an essential role in blood-stage growth.

      Strengths:

      Overall, the manuscript is well written and interesting, as it combines comparative genomics and evolutionary analysis with functional experiments. The phylogenetic analysis is rigorous and represents a major strength of the manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      The general conclusions regarding the potential function of this gene family are not fully supported by the data presented. The manuscript moves too quickly from growth phenotype and localization studies to a specific mechanistic model. The discussion argues that PIRC1 may be involved in nutrient acquisition, host sensing, or metabolic support, but the data provided do not directly support these functions, and the manuscript in its present form remains speculative. Although the manuscript includes some experimental results, it lacks direct mechanistic validation of the specific functions of the pir genes, including pirC1. In its current form, the study does not yet establish a definitive role for pirC1 in metabolic processes.

      The reviewer is correct that there is no definitive proof for the function of the PIRC1 protein. We speculate that this protein is involved in a metabolic process based on mutant phenotype – small, poorly developed parasites that do not produce the same amount of DNA as wildtype parasites (and hence likely fewer merozoites). That this occurs in an in vitro culture of Plasmodium knowlesi rules out a role in the interaction with the host organism, such as sequestration or facilitating passage through the spleen. The localization of the protein outside of the parasite is consistent with a role in nutrient uptake, but we agree that additional experiments are required to determine the role of the protein definitively. We aim to look at the differences in the transcriptome and the metabolome to gain more insight into the pirC1 phenotype; this should reveal metabolic deficiencies in the mutant parasite.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This is an extensive study using phylogenetic comparison across multiple plasmodium species to gain new insights in relation to their evolutionary pathways and the potential function of pir. In addition to establishing a framework to identify related orthologues across species as well as expanding paralogues families within a species, the work also focuses on understanding loss and gain of different PIRs and how this indicates a relative lack of functional constraints and essentiality for most members of the gene family.

      The authors provide evidence that at least pirC has a conserved function and plays an important role in parasite growth in multiple species.

      While this study represents a significant effort and does provide interesting new insights that would help our understanding of this complex gene family in the future, it has a number of limitations.

      Strengths:

      Extensive and thorough phylogenetic analysis that is supported by some biological validation. Provides an indication that the PIR gene family has limited biological constraints and evolved independently across different species, leading to rapid expansion and deletion of orthologous groups. Identified pirC as a functional and important member of the family that is conserved across the species.

      Weaknesses:

      The phylogenetic tree is based on a truncated sequence that focuses on the more conserved parts of the pir sequence. This could potentially lead to missing the key functional drivers of evolution. The biological validation of the role of pirC has some inconsistencies that need to be addressed.

      The reviewer is correct. We do not use the repetitive parts of the pir gene sequences for the phylogeny. We define these as the ‘distal variable’ and ‘proximal’ domains of the protein in Fig. S1, results text and supplementary results. We remove these parts from the alignment because they are only nominally homologous (they cannot be aligned) and so break the basic assumption of phylogenetic analysis. Amino acid repeats evolve quickly and are homoplasic (their similarities do not reflect ancestry) so omitting them is correct and makes the phylogeny more reliable. While these features do not contribute to the phylogenetic estimate, we propose in the results text and Fig. S3, in agreement with the reviewer, that they are an important demonstration of how pirs have differentiated and what is different between the subfamilies. The reviewer is also correct that we have considered the whole gene sequence when comparing Alphafold predictions and in selection analyses of closely related sequences (in these cases, the repeat sequences can be aligned).

      A structural prediction for the sequence used in the alignment would mostly reflect the distal conserved domain but would be misleading because the alignment combines conserved regions that are not physically attached in reality. We will clarify these points.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      This paper aims to classify, from an evolutionary perspective, the multigene family PIR found in malaria parasites infecting rodents and Old World monkeys, and to link this classification to functional diversification. The authors also hypothesize that PIR members conserved across species play important roles in parasite survival, and seek to clarify their functions.

      To achieve these aims, the authors comprehensively analyze the evolution of PIR genes using genomic and transcriptomic information from many malaria parasite species. They focus on PIRC1, a member conserved across species, and attempt to clarify its function in rodent and simian malaria parasites by examining the phenotypes of parasites in which the corresponding genetic locus has been disrupted. They also attempt to determine its localization using PIRC1 tagged with an epitope sequence. However, although the locus-disrupted parasites appear to show an approximately 50% reduction in growth rate, this effect seems to be overestimated. Another weakness is that the cause of the reduced growth rate has not been clarified. The localization analysis also remains insufficiently conclusive.

      Therefore, I consider that the first half of the paper, consisting of the bioinformatics analyses, achieves the objective of comprehensively summarizing PIR and may become a reference paper for discussing the evolution and function of the PIR gene family. On the other hand, regarding the function of PIRC1, no clear conclusion can be drawn from the results presented, and several additional experiments are necessary.

      My major comments are as follows.

      (1) The claim that the failure of eight disruption attempts indicates that pirC1 is essential is too strong.

      Lines 319-321: The authors argue that a total of eight failed attempts to disrupt the pirC1 locus using two different construct designs suggest that pirC1 is essential in P. berghei. However, the failure of these attempts could also reflect technical issues with the construct design itself, such as the length of the homologous regions used for recombination, which are approximately 650 bp. Therefore, it is an overstatement to conclude that "pirC1 is essential for P. berghei blood-stage growth." Given that parasites with disruption of the corresponding locus could be obtained in both P. chabaudi and P. knowlesi, a more appropriate statement would be that "pirC1 is important for P. berghei blood-stage growth."

      It is correct that we cannot rule out that the inability to delete the pirC1 gene is Plasmodium berghei is unrelated to an essential function. We are happy to change the text to the suggested description.

      (2) The data on the mCherry-expressing P. berghei line shown in Supplementary Figure 11 are insufficient.

      (a) Panel C: Southern blot analysis

      To conclusively identify the lower band in panel C as chromosome 1, additional probes specific to genes located on chromosomes 1 and 2 would be required. In addition, a parental parasite control should also be included. The Southern blot image of the parental parasite should show only a single band at the higher position, with no band at the lower position. Probes specific to chromosomes 1 and 2 would help demonstrate that the lower band corresponds to chromosome 1, rather than chromosome 2.

      To this end, the authors could describe the result as follows:

      "In the parental parasite, only a single band corresponding to chromosome 7 was detected, indicating that the smaller chromosome was genetically modified. The size of the lower band detected with the dhfr probe was identical to that of the band detected with the control chromosome 1 probe, but distinct from that detected with the chromosome 2 probe, indicating that chromosome 1 was modified."

      That said, this chromosome-level Southern blot analysis is not sufficient to demonstrate that the target PBANKA_0100500 locus was specifically modified. The authors should provide more direct evidence showing that the PBANKA_0100500 locus, rather than another genomic locus, was modified. For example, Southern blot analysis after restriction enzyme digestion would provide more definitive evidence. Diagnostic PCR may also provide more specific evidence.

      Although we are confident that the parasites has been modified in the expected way, we are planning to generate PCR data confirming that the mCherry tag is correctly integrated into PBANKA_010050.

      (b) Panel D: Flow cytometry analysis

      To allow a more accurate interpretation of the percentage of mCherry-positive cells, flow cytometry data for the parental parasite line should also be presented.

      We will repeat the flow cytometry experiments and include a wildtype strain in the analysis.

      (3) There are unclear points in the PCR results shown in Supplementary Figure 12.

      Supplementary Figure 12: In panel B, a PCR product should also be amplified from dPCHAS_0101200 using the P1-P3 primer pair. Why is this band absent? The authors should provide the uncropped electrophoresis image so that the larger band can be seen. In addition, if labels 1 and 2 indicate independent clones, this should be stated in the figure legend.

      We will gladly supply the full, uncropped electrophoresis image and we will clarify what the numbers indicate in the legend.

      (4) The growth rates of P. chabaudi and P. knowlesi parasites with disruption of the PIRC1 gene locus should be quantitatively analyzed.

      The growth rates of P. chabaudi and P. knowlesi are described only qualitatively, but they should be evaluated quantitatively. In Figure 4A, the parasitemia of wild-type P. chabaudi increases from approximately 6.1% on day 6 to approximately 15.6% on day 8, corresponding to a 3.8-fold increase. However, because parasite growth may already be affected by immune-mediated suppression at this stage, this value should be regarded as a minimum estimate. In contrast, the mutant increases from approximately 3.2% on day 8 to approximately 6.8% on day 10, corresponding to a 2.1-fold increase. Based on these values, the daily growth rate of the mutant appears to be reduced to at least approximately 56% of that of the wild type. Similarly, from the growth curve of P. knowlesi in Fig. 5A, the DMSO-treated group appears to increase approximately two-fold per day, whereas the rapamycin-treated group increases only approximately one-fold per day. Thus, P. knowlesi also appears to show an approximately 50% reduction in growth rate. Taken together, both P. chabaudi and P. knowlesi appear to reproducibly show an approximately 50% reduction in growth capacity. A reduction of this magnitude is difficult to describe as a "severe growth defect"; a more appropriate wording would be simply that the parasites "showed a growth defect." In addition, the terms "a severe growth defect" and "essential" appear to be overstated throughout the manuscript, and the wording should be toned down. Finally, I recommend presenting Figure 4A and Figure 5A on a logarithmic scale so that the trend in growth rates can be more intuitively appreciated from the graphs.

      It should be possible to determine the growth rate of the wildtype and mutant P. knowlesi parasites. In addition, we can change the text to reflect that although there is a growth phenotype in the two species in which we obtained mutants, the parasites do have the capacity to replicate. Note that in the case of P. knowlesi, the parasites numbers in vitro do not increase, hence any additional factors that decrease the growth rate, such as immune system and spleen, will lower the reproductive rate further and render the mutant parasite unable to proliferate.

      (5) The evidence that disruption of the PIRC1 gene locus in P. knowlesi does not affect erythrocyte invasion is weak.

      The authors describe that "the developmental cycle of the parasites lacking PIRCl is slightly longer than that of parasites that produce PIRCl (line 383-384)," and appear to support this interpretation with data showing that "mutant parasites are significantly smaller than wild-type parasites (line 414)" and that "the DNA content in ML10-arrested parasites lacking PIRCl is lower than that of DMSO-treated parasites (line 417-418)" at 24 hours after invasion. However, a slightly longer developmental cycle alone does not seem sufficient to explain a 50% growth reduction.

      I think the erythrocyte invasion capacity has not been quantitatively evaluated, and therefore, the evidence supporting the conclusion that the phenotype of P. knowlesi parasites with disruption of the PIRC1 gene locus is unrelated to erythrocyte invasion is weak. The authors should assess invasion efficiency using purified merozoites. For P. chabaudi, it should also be possible to apply an in vitro or in vivo erythrocyte invasion assay similar to that used for other rodent malaria parasites, and this should be evaluated as well.

      We can further investigate the invasion phenotype of the mutant P. knowlesi parasites. The presence of a clear phenotype during the intraerythrocytic stage indicates that the protein also has a role after invasion, but we agree that determining the effect on invasion directly will be useful.

      Alternatively, the reduced DNA content in ML10-arrested parasites lacking PIRC1 (lines 416-417) could suggest that the number of merozoites formed per schizont may be reduced. To clarify this point, the authors should assess whether the number of merozoites per schizont is altered in P. knowlesi (and P. chabaudi parasites lacking PIRC1).

      We aim to count merozoites and the level of invasion, which will allow us to determine the reproductive rate of the mutant parasites.

      (7) The authors propose the possibility that PIRC1 expressed in merozoites is released after invasion; however, the evidence that PIRC1 localizes to intracellular organelles is weak.

      Line 333: "a peripheral pattern around the parasite" is indicative of parasite plasma membrane, PV, or PVM. ", indicative of a parasitophorous vacuole (PV) or parasitophorous vacuole membrane (PVM) location" should be amended to ", indicative of parasite plasma membrane, a parasitophorous vacuole (PV) or parasitophorous vacuole membrane (PVM) location". In the Figure S14 image, red signals are uniformly detected from the merozoites formed in the schizont stage parasite (not really microorganelle patterns), but not from the PVM surrounding the schizont, suggesting parasite plasma membrane localization, not PVM. I agree that the signal is detected from the compartments extending into the iRBC cytosol, which may be difficult to explain if it is located on the parasite plasma membrane, but how frequently were such images seen?

      To determine the localization of the protein in the merozoite, we will image P. knowlesi merozoites.

      Figure 4D. In the images of liver-stage schizonts, AMA1 does not appear to localize to the micronemes in mature merozoites, suggesting this image is an immature schizont. Although PIRC1 appears to be expressed in liver-stage schizonts, it is difficult to clearly determine whether it localizes to intracellular organelles or to the parasite plasma membrane.

      This is a valuable comment. It is difficult to impossible to determine the exact localization of the protein at this stage, irrespective of the exact stage of the parasite. It is clear from the images is that the protein is not secreted at this stage. The main aim of the experiment was to determine whether the protein is produced by the parasite during the liver stage, which the results confirm.

      To clarify the above points, the authors should examine whether PIRC1 is detected in intracellular organelles or around the merozoites by analyzing its localization in purified merozoites.

      This we aim to do.

    1. eLife Assessment

      This important manuscript presents the Crunchometer, an open-source and low-cost acoustic system for high-resolution quantification of biting and chewing in mice. The work addresses a need for reliable measures of food consumption and feeding microstructure, and the tool has broad relevance for studies of ingestive behavior, appetite circuits, hypothalamic function, and pharmacological interventions. The evidence supporting the methodological advance is convincing, and the Crunchometer outputs were carefully validated against human observer scoring, reliably distinguished biting and chewing events, and captured changes in feeding behavior across different foods, physiological states, and semaglutide treatment. The study also demonstrates that the system can reveal biologically meaningful features of feeding, including meal structure, bite and chew dynamics, and altered consumption patterns after pharmacological manipulation. A significant additional contribution is the identification of previously unrecognized meal-related neurons in the lateral hypothalamus, providing novel circuit-level insight into solid food consumption and naturalistic feeding behavior. Although some neuroscience conclusions remain more preliminary than the methodological validation, the study provides strong evidence for the utility of the Crunchometer and will be of interest to researchers studying ingestive behavior, hypothalamic circuits, and metabolic regulation.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      This is an interesting and valuable paper by Gil-Lievana, Arroyo et al. that presents an open-source method (the "Crunchometer") for quantifying biting and chewing behavior in mice using audio detection. The work addresses an important and unmet need in the field: quantitative measures of feeding behavior with solid foods, since most prior approaches have been limited to liquids. The authors make a clear and compelling case for why this problem is important, and I fully agree with their motivation.

      The system is carefully validated against human-scored video data and is shown to be at least as accurate, and in some cases more accurate, than human observers. This is a major strength of the study. I also particularly appreciate the demonstration of the technology in the context of LHA circuitry, which nicely illustrates its utility and importance for mechanistic studies of feeding. I also appreciate the ability to readily time lock neural data to individual crunches. Overall, the manuscript is well executed and represents a useful contribution to the field.

      Comments on revised version.

      The revised manuscript has addressed my minor initial concerns. I appreciate that the sample size was increased for the recording experiments.

    3. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors set out to develop and validate the Crunchometer, a low-cost, open-source acoustic system designed to overcome the limitations of existing methods for studying feeding behavior in rodents. Their goal was to provide a tool that could precisely capture the microstructure of solid food intake, something often overlooked in favor of liquid-based assays, while being affordable, scalable, and compatible with neural recording techniques. By doing so, they aimed to enable detailed analysis of how physiological states, drugs, and specific neural circuits shape naturalistic feeding behaviors.

      Strengths:

      (1) Introduces a low-cost, open-source acoustic tool for measuring solid food intake, filling a critical gap left by expensive and proprietary systems.

      (2) Makes the method easily adoptable across labs with detailed setup instructions and shared benchmark datasets.

      (3) Provides high temporal precision for detecting bite events compared to human observers.

      (4) Successfully distinguishes feeding microstructure (bites, bouts, IBIs, gnawing vs. consumption) with greater objectivity than manual annotation.

      (5) Demonstrates compatibility with electrophysiology and calcium imaging, enabling fine-scale alignment of neural activity with feeding behavior.

      (6) Effectively discriminates between fed vs. fasted states, validating physiological sensitivity.

      (7) Captures pharmacological effects of semaglutide, although this is really just reduced feeding and associated readouts (bouts, latency, etc.)

      (8) Has potential to distinguish consummatory vs. non-consummatory behaviors (e.g., food spillage, gnawing), however the current SVM model struggles to separate biting from gnawing due to similar acoustic profiles and manual validation is still required.

      (9) Provides potential for closed-loop experiments

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Some neuroscience findings (calcium imaging of GABAergic vs. glutamatergic neurons) are based on small pilot samples (n=2 mice per condition), limiting generalizability.

      (2) Chemogenetic and pharmacological experiments used small cohorts, raising statistical power concerns.

      (3) Correlation with actual food intake is modest and sometimes less accurate than human observers

      (4) Sensitive to hoarding behavior, which can reduce detection accuracy and requires manual correction for misclassifications (e.g., tail movements, non-food noises). However, these limitations are discussed and not ignored.

      Comments on revised version.

      The authors have addressed all my comments and have put forth a creative, accurate approach to assessing food intake in rodents.