Again, Gorgias' "craft" vs. "knack." One need not only direct attention toward surface-level endeavors (cosmetics), but must also pursue those endeavors geared at the pursuit of knowledge (gymnastics).

Echoes of Gorgias's Encomium of Helen again, where rhetoric is force of untold power, to the point where will is overtaken

I'm immediately drawn the notion of a "craft" vs. "knack" in the "Gorgias." Whereas a craft is genuinely good and involves the pursuit of real knowledge, a knack merely imitates a craft as a surface-level endeavor.

Cf. Gorgias's Encomium of Helen again

http://myweb.fsu.edu/jjm09f/RhetoricSpring2012/Gorgias%20Encomium%20of%20Helen.pdf

Reminds me of the Gorgias "craft" vs "knack" distinction. A craft continually pursues knowledge, whereas a knack simply imitates a craft and is mere routine.

This claim is articulated pretty strongly in Gorgias's Encomium of Helen. The piece is a kind of thought experiment where Gorgias attempts to defend Helen. He points out that language (or speech) is "a powerful lord, which by means of the finest and most invisible body effects the divinest works: it can stop fear and banish grief and create joy and nature pity" (sec. 8). Part of his defense, then, is that Helen almost didn't have a choice; the speech was too powerful, god-like even. I found a .pdf copy of it here: http://myweb.fsu.edu/jjm09f/RhetoricSpring2012/Gorgias%20Encomium%20of%20Helen.pdf

This claim is articulated pretty strongly in Gorgias's Encomium of Helen. The piece is a kind of thought experiment where Gorgias attempts to defend Helen. He points out that language (or speech) is "a powerful lord, which by means of the finest and most invisible body effects the divinest works: it can stop fear and banish grief and create joy and nature pity" (sec. 8). Part of his defense, then, is that Helen almost didn't have a choice; the speech was too powerful, god-like even. I found a .pdf copy of it here: http://myweb.fsu.edu/jjm09f/RhetoricSpring2012/Gorgias%20Encomium%20of%20Helen.pdf

Rhetoric as bad.

Gor. Some answers, Socrates, are of necessity longer; but I will do my best to make them as short as possible; for a part of my profession is that I can be as short as any one.

Soc. That is what is wanted, Gorgias; exhibit the shorter method now, and the longer one at some other time.

Gor. Well, I will; and you will certainly say, that you never heard a man use fewer words.

Soc. Very good then; as you profess to be a rhetorician, and a maker of rhetoricians, let me ask you, with what is rhetoric concerned: I might ask with what is weaving concerned, and you would reply (would you not?), with the making of garments?

Gor. Yes.

Soc. And music is concerned with the composition of melodies?

Gor. It is.

Soc. By Here, Gorgias, I admire the surpassing brevity of your answers.

Gor. Yes, Socrates, I do think myself good at that.

Soc. I am glad to hear it; answer me in like manner about rhetoric: with what is rhetoric concerned?

Gor. With discourse.

Soc. What sort of discourse, Gorgias?-such discourse as would teach the sick under what treatment they might get well?

Gor. No.

Soc. Then rhetoric does not treat of all kinds of discourse?

Gor. Certainly not.

Soc. And yet rhetoric makes men able to speak?

Gor. Yes.

Soc. And to understand that about which they speak?

Gor. Of course.

Soc. But does not the art of medicine, which we were just now mentioning, also make men able to understand and speak about the sick?

Gor. Certainly.

Soc. Then medicine also treats of discourse?

Gor. Yes.

Soc. Of discourse concerning diseases?

Gor. Just so.

Soc. And does not gymnastic also treat of discourse concerning the good or evil condition of the body?

Gor. Very true.

Soc. And the same, Gorgias, is true of the other arts:-all of them treat of discourse concerning the subjects with which they severally have to do.

Gor. Clearly.

Soc. Then why, if you call rhetoric the art which treats of discourse, and all the other arts treat of discourse, do you not call them arts of rhetoric?

Gor. Because, Socrates, the knowledge of the other arts has only to do with some sort of external action, as of the hand; but there is no such action of the hand in rhetoric which works and takes effect only through the medium of discourse. And therefore I am justified in saying that rhetoric treats of discourse.

Soc. I am not sure whether I entirely understand you, but I dare say I shall soon know better; please to answer me a question:-you would allow that there are arts?

Gor. Yes.

Soc. As to the arts generally, they are for the most part concerned with doing, and require little or no speaking; in painting, and statuary, and many other arts, the work may proceed in silence; and of such arts I suppose you would say that they do not come within the province of rhetoric.

Gor. You perfectly conceive my meaning, Socrates.

Interesting. This reminds me of a previous comment I had made on Gorgias' style in Econium of Helen. I made mention that his word choice had aroused suspicion. I wonder also if it was 'metrical', lending to its artificial appearance.

At odds with Socrates (Plato's "Gorgias") again, however Aristotle's view of things sounds much more realistic.

This reminds me of Socrates in Plato's "Gorgias." Except that he advised people to only partake in things that make them happy because they are good or beneficial and not to partake in things good/beneficial because they make the person happy (or something along those lines).

Coincides with what Gorgias was presumably attempting to say to Socrates.

Reminiscent of Gorgias versus Socrates

Socrates is willing to accept when he is wrong, he just wants to understand what Gorgias is saying. He thinks Gorgias is inconsistent and wants clarity.

Socrates asks leading questions. Gorgias shows his skills as a rhetorician and addresses the concerns of his audiencel

Socrates wants ask Gorgias questions about rhetoric.

the ethics of rhetoric, sportsmanship, and conduct

Alright, this is a total slippery slope here, but is Gorgias proclaiming an inability to be unjust now or ever? Quite the bold statement. Not knowing anything about Gorgias, did he have anything to say about objectivity within the personal narrative (sorry that sounds like an egg-head phrase, it's the best I can think of) or did he believe in absolutism? If so, he could be best friends with Ayn Rand.

Not to the human brain. If you believe Strawberry Pop-Tarts are better than Blue Berry Pop-Tarts and you know that 1 + 1 = 2 your brain processes the information in the exact same way. This is what can make persuasion difficult: how to you get someone to view an idea they see as true in a different way? This is a little off topic, but still relevant in the way Gorgias explains his views.